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summarize the discussion about the marketing target of the remote control . </s> marketing: is this okay ? project manager: uh yeah . fine now . oh , it 's not liking us , it went that-a-way . computer adjusting . oh . uh . okay . so . right . you ready back there ? uh okay . welcome everyone . um this is the kick-off meeting for the day . um we 're the new group uh to create a new remote control for real reaction . as you can see our agenda is to open up the meeting , um become acquainted with each other , um have a little training on tools , uh create a plan , discuss things and and we only have twenty minut twenty five minutes total . okay . the new remote control is to be original , trendy and user-friendly . that , steph , is your part , is the user-friendliness . the originality um is gon na take all of us . um the trendiness we 'll probably go look at for some marketing research information from you , sarah . um and we 'll get on with it . okay , so we 'll have a functional design individual work um with meeting and then conceptual design t and then detailed design . okay ? right . everybody 's supposed to try out the whiteboard . kate , why do n't you try it first , if you can either bring your things with you , i guess industrial designer: uh yeah , if i can pick up with all these bits and pieces , hang on . project manager: and while you 're doing that we 'll try and figure out how to hook these things on as well , 'cause we 're all gon na have to be able to walk around . industrial designer: uh right , so you want an animal and the characteristics of that animal . project manager: industrial designer: do you have to be able to recognise what animal it is ? um project manager: uh i do not think so , user interface: are we all gon na draw a cat ? project manager: i think it 's just to try out the whiteboard . ah . industrial designer: only animal i could thin i could draw . marketing: i know . industrial designer: its a sort of bunny rabbit cat . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: you can tell it 's not a bunny rabbit by the ears . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: um i suppose it should have a mouth as well , sort of project manager: okay . industrial designer: right , yeah . project manager: great . and the characteristics ? industrial designer: um the favourite characteristics of the cat um the whiskers i think , um because they 're the easiest to draw . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: in fact , i 'll give it some more project manager: okay . industrial designer: oh , and the tail project manager: fantastic . since you 're handy as well , why do n't you do yours next , steph . i think it 's to get us used to using the pen . industrial designer: yes . um sure it 's not to test our artistic project manager: uh no . a mouse-y ? industrial designer: it 's a mouse . user interface: that 's not a mouse-y , no . industrial designer: no it 's not a mouse . it 's a wombat . project manager: oh . user interface: it 's a ratty . project manager: argh . industrial designer: a what ? project manager: rat . user interface: a ratty . project manager: not a mouse , a rat . industrial designer: a webbed foot . webbed f user interface: it 's clothes . that 's it 's clothes . project manager: industrial designer: oh right . user interface: it 's a ratty with a with a with a very long tail . project manager: and your favourite characteristics of that animal . user interface: i love whiskers . uh they 're intelligent and they 're cheeky and uh fantastic pets project manager: oh . user interface: and very friendly . project manager: okay . kate ? industrial designer: user interface: and they sit on your shoulder and whisper the answers to your homework in your ear when you 're doing your homework . project manager: marketing: thanks . project manager: oh , a fish . industrial designer: gosh , user interface: a shark ? industrial designer: why did n't i think of fish ? that 's even easier to draw than cat . marketing: mm this is very representational fish . project manager: oh , okay . industrial designer: project manager: fine . marketing: um i like them because they 're sleek project manager: favourite characteristics ? marketing: and they have a lot of freedom but they also do n uh swim in groups , project manager: 'kay . marketing: so . project manager: so they have team elements . industrial designer: marketing: do you have a favourite one ? project manager: i 'm afraid i 'm with steph . and i think your pen 's running out of whatever . but i 'm afraid i take the coward 's way out , and the cat 's looking the other way . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: he 's hiding . marketing: project manager: um cats are sometimes very independent . my parents had cats . uh and they can mm decide for themselves what is best . okay . now um we have to get down to the nitty-gritty of how to make this and this remote control has to be sold um we 're to sell it for twenty five euros , with a profit aim ultimately of fifty million euros . that tells you something about how many um we have to sell on an international scale . um would be an awful lot of these , would be like what , a hundred million of them um to make twenty five euros on each one and to make a total profit of fifty million . um the production is to only cost twelve and a half euros per item . now if they cost twelve and a half , you 're selling it for twenty five , you 're making twelve and a half euros each . um and we 're to make a profit of fifty million , that 's t uh can you do the maths and how many are we selling ? marketing: uh yeah . i was just wondering if that 's the um if fifty percent is normal project manager: mark-up ? marketing: b yeah . um i would think would be more like sixty percent . but um let me project manager: okay . marketing: i have two thoughts . one hundred , fifty percent . project manager: marketing: and and your question is how many do we have to sell ? project manager: yes , 'cause our market um is international and your problem is has to do with marketing of you know , you got ta know how many we 're going to be selling to know how big a market you have to target and who is that . marketing: at twenty five . mm-hmm . yeah , that 's um project manager: to give you a pretty good idea of where you 're looking . marketing: so that 's four million of them ? project manager: something like that ? okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: that 's fifty million euros . in order to make fifty million euros , and you 're only getting twelve and a half each marketing: and if we make mm-hmm . project manager: that 's a lot of selling . two four marketing: yeah . four million . project manager: to be fifty , be four million . you 'd have to sell four million . marketing: hmm . project manager: okay ? right . experience with a remote control . any of you use of remote control for a television or d_v_d_ or something ? you 're both nodding , industrial designer: that that that 's the sorta product we 're talking about , one that will work for a in a home environment , for a tvs and marketing: yeah . project manager: all three . well i 've seen some remote controls that are for more than one device at a time , but i also have heard about them not working well or not well co-ordinated and you wind up working with this one for thi this three and then this one over here for another . user interface: it is true that you always sit around you know , you 're sitting on your sofa and you wan na change something , there 's five different remotes , and one for the d_v_d_ and one for the video and one for cable and one for whatever else . industrial designer: marketing: mm-hmm . y yeah . project manager: and they do n't always talk to each other . user interface: but i presume this is t i presume this is just for television . project manager: do n't know . okay . marketing: project manager: are there any um ideas for the remote ? what would it be for and what group would be be for ? we have to think about that one . marketing: we could make a hello kitty industrial designer: marketing: themed remote . project manager: user interface: i think one in b bright colours would be good . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think one that works would be good . marketing: we could totally go for the japan-a-mation . well i mean there 's also the cachet that um uh the japanese make great products . electrical their industrial design is very good . user interface: i think one that does n't have lots of superfluous functions . like i 've got one at home that has well , apart from the obvious , channels , channel up , channel down , volume , marketing: yeah . user interface: you know , subtitles , mute , there 's a lotta buttons that i 've got no idea what they do , like . project manager: marketing: well , that 's a really good point , project manager: okay . marketing: because i think one of the things that being somewhat computer literate , we tend to um go to menus and then make choices , you know , so if it 's like an uh volume button , you know , you can go in and say mute or or volume . we do n't need to have like the l the numbers if we also have uh uh channel up channel down . user interface: mm . project manager: mm . okay . marketing: mm . we can make it smart like an ipod , you know , make everything menus . user interface: ooh , closing the meeting . project manager: yeah . um i know this sounds like it was very quick , user interface: that was quick . project manager: but the i think that 's the industrial design is the first one , industrial designer: mm . project manager: that 's kate , for the working design . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and user , that 's you s steph , for the technical functions design , and for marketing the user requirements specification . i think there 's going to be a lot of we have to help each other and work through this as a group , and i think we all , you know , we like our kitty-cat and our rat and our fish , but i think we all have to like each other um to get this done . uh as it says , we 're gon na get individual instructions , but uh i do n't think they allowed a lot of extra time , so i think a little bit of less of this and more at do will set us in good stead . do you all agree ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: alright . um then i do n't see any reason to prolong it and f we should finish this meeting at ni right now and go into other things . alright , so this is the end of the first meeting . marketing: okay . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: thank you all .

the preliminary aim of the profit was fifty million euros . the setting price was twenty-five euros each remote control , and therefore the profit was twelve and a half euros per item . to reach the profit goal of fifty million , marketing set a sales figure of four million .

why did marketing disagree with project manager when project manager proposed the setting price ? </s> marketing: is this okay ? project manager: uh yeah . fine now . oh , it 's not liking us , it went that-a-way . computer adjusting . oh . uh . okay . so . right . you ready back there ? uh okay . welcome everyone . um this is the kick-off meeting for the day . um we 're the new group uh to create a new remote control for real reaction . as you can see our agenda is to open up the meeting , um become acquainted with each other , um have a little training on tools , uh create a plan , discuss things and and we only have twenty minut twenty five minutes total . okay . the new remote control is to be original , trendy and user-friendly . that , steph , is your part , is the user-friendliness . the originality um is gon na take all of us . um the trendiness we 'll probably go look at for some marketing research information from you , sarah . um and we 'll get on with it . okay , so we 'll have a functional design individual work um with meeting and then conceptual design t and then detailed design . okay ? right . everybody 's supposed to try out the whiteboard . kate , why do n't you try it first , if you can either bring your things with you , i guess industrial designer: uh yeah , if i can pick up with all these bits and pieces , hang on . project manager: and while you 're doing that we 'll try and figure out how to hook these things on as well , 'cause we 're all gon na have to be able to walk around . industrial designer: uh right , so you want an animal and the characteristics of that animal . project manager: industrial designer: do you have to be able to recognise what animal it is ? um project manager: uh i do not think so , user interface: are we all gon na draw a cat ? project manager: i think it 's just to try out the whiteboard . ah . industrial designer: only animal i could thin i could draw . marketing: i know . industrial designer: its a sort of bunny rabbit cat . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: you can tell it 's not a bunny rabbit by the ears . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: um i suppose it should have a mouth as well , sort of project manager: okay . industrial designer: right , yeah . project manager: great . and the characteristics ? industrial designer: um the favourite characteristics of the cat um the whiskers i think , um because they 're the easiest to draw . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: in fact , i 'll give it some more project manager: okay . industrial designer: oh , and the tail project manager: fantastic . since you 're handy as well , why do n't you do yours next , steph . i think it 's to get us used to using the pen . industrial designer: yes . um sure it 's not to test our artistic project manager: uh no . a mouse-y ? industrial designer: it 's a mouse . user interface: that 's not a mouse-y , no . industrial designer: no it 's not a mouse . it 's a wombat . project manager: oh . user interface: it 's a ratty . project manager: argh . industrial designer: a what ? project manager: rat . user interface: a ratty . project manager: not a mouse , a rat . industrial designer: a webbed foot . webbed f user interface: it 's clothes . that 's it 's clothes . project manager: industrial designer: oh right . user interface: it 's a ratty with a with a with a very long tail . project manager: and your favourite characteristics of that animal . user interface: i love whiskers . uh they 're intelligent and they 're cheeky and uh fantastic pets project manager: oh . user interface: and very friendly . project manager: okay . kate ? industrial designer: user interface: and they sit on your shoulder and whisper the answers to your homework in your ear when you 're doing your homework . project manager: marketing: thanks . project manager: oh , a fish . industrial designer: gosh , user interface: a shark ? industrial designer: why did n't i think of fish ? that 's even easier to draw than cat . marketing: mm this is very representational fish . project manager: oh , okay . industrial designer: project manager: fine . marketing: um i like them because they 're sleek project manager: favourite characteristics ? marketing: and they have a lot of freedom but they also do n uh swim in groups , project manager: 'kay . marketing: so . project manager: so they have team elements . industrial designer: marketing: do you have a favourite one ? project manager: i 'm afraid i 'm with steph . and i think your pen 's running out of whatever . but i 'm afraid i take the coward 's way out , and the cat 's looking the other way . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: he 's hiding . marketing: project manager: um cats are sometimes very independent . my parents had cats . uh and they can mm decide for themselves what is best . okay . now um we have to get down to the nitty-gritty of how to make this and this remote control has to be sold um we 're to sell it for twenty five euros , with a profit aim ultimately of fifty million euros . that tells you something about how many um we have to sell on an international scale . um would be an awful lot of these , would be like what , a hundred million of them um to make twenty five euros on each one and to make a total profit of fifty million . um the production is to only cost twelve and a half euros per item . now if they cost twelve and a half , you 're selling it for twenty five , you 're making twelve and a half euros each . um and we 're to make a profit of fifty million , that 's t uh can you do the maths and how many are we selling ? marketing: uh yeah . i was just wondering if that 's the um if fifty percent is normal project manager: mark-up ? marketing: b yeah . um i would think would be more like sixty percent . but um let me project manager: okay . marketing: i have two thoughts . one hundred , fifty percent . project manager: marketing: and and your question is how many do we have to sell ? project manager: yes , 'cause our market um is international and your problem is has to do with marketing of you know , you got ta know how many we 're going to be selling to know how big a market you have to target and who is that . marketing: at twenty five . mm-hmm . yeah , that 's um project manager: to give you a pretty good idea of where you 're looking . marketing: so that 's four million of them ? project manager: something like that ? okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: that 's fifty million euros . in order to make fifty million euros , and you 're only getting twelve and a half each marketing: and if we make mm-hmm . project manager: that 's a lot of selling . two four marketing: yeah . four million . project manager: to be fifty , be four million . you 'd have to sell four million . marketing: hmm . project manager: okay ? right . experience with a remote control . any of you use of remote control for a television or d_v_d_ or something ? you 're both nodding , industrial designer: that that that 's the sorta product we 're talking about , one that will work for a in a home environment , for a tvs and marketing: yeah . project manager: all three . well i 've seen some remote controls that are for more than one device at a time , but i also have heard about them not working well or not well co-ordinated and you wind up working with this one for thi this three and then this one over here for another . user interface: it is true that you always sit around you know , you 're sitting on your sofa and you wan na change something , there 's five different remotes , and one for the d_v_d_ and one for the video and one for cable and one for whatever else . industrial designer: marketing: mm-hmm . y yeah . project manager: and they do n't always talk to each other . user interface: but i presume this is t i presume this is just for television . project manager: do n't know . okay . marketing: project manager: are there any um ideas for the remote ? what would it be for and what group would be be for ? we have to think about that one . marketing: we could make a hello kitty industrial designer: marketing: themed remote . project manager: user interface: i think one in b bright colours would be good . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think one that works would be good . marketing: we could totally go for the japan-a-mation . well i mean there 's also the cachet that um uh the japanese make great products . electrical their industrial design is very good . user interface: i think one that does n't have lots of superfluous functions . like i 've got one at home that has well , apart from the obvious , channels , channel up , channel down , volume , marketing: yeah . user interface: you know , subtitles , mute , there 's a lotta buttons that i 've got no idea what they do , like . project manager: marketing: well , that 's a really good point , project manager: okay . marketing: because i think one of the things that being somewhat computer literate , we tend to um go to menus and then make choices , you know , so if it 's like an uh volume button , you know , you can go in and say mute or or volume . we do n't need to have like the l the numbers if we also have uh uh channel up channel down . user interface: mm . project manager: mm . okay . marketing: mm . we can make it smart like an ipod , you know , make everything menus . user interface: ooh , closing the meeting . project manager: yeah . um i know this sounds like it was very quick , user interface: that was quick . project manager: but the i think that 's the industrial design is the first one , industrial designer: mm . project manager: that 's kate , for the working design . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and user , that 's you s steph , for the technical functions design , and for marketing the user requirements specification . i think there 's going to be a lot of we have to help each other and work through this as a group , and i think we all , you know , we like our kitty-cat and our rat and our fish , but i think we all have to like each other um to get this done . uh as it says , we 're gon na get individual instructions , but uh i do n't think they allowed a lot of extra time , so i think a little bit of less of this and more at do will set us in good stead . do you all agree ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: alright . um then i do n't see any reason to prolong it and f we should finish this meeting at ni right now and go into other things . alright , so this is the end of the first meeting . marketing: okay . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: thank you all .

the setting price of each remote control that project manager proposed was twenty-five , but marketing had doubts about the profits . marketing was n't sure that if the mark-up of fifty percent is normal for a product , and preferred sixty percent .

what did project manager think of the necessity of setting the selling target ? </s> marketing: is this okay ? project manager: uh yeah . fine now . oh , it 's not liking us , it went that-a-way . computer adjusting . oh . uh . okay . so . right . you ready back there ? uh okay . welcome everyone . um this is the kick-off meeting for the day . um we 're the new group uh to create a new remote control for real reaction . as you can see our agenda is to open up the meeting , um become acquainted with each other , um have a little training on tools , uh create a plan , discuss things and and we only have twenty minut twenty five minutes total . okay . the new remote control is to be original , trendy and user-friendly . that , steph , is your part , is the user-friendliness . the originality um is gon na take all of us . um the trendiness we 'll probably go look at for some marketing research information from you , sarah . um and we 'll get on with it . okay , so we 'll have a functional design individual work um with meeting and then conceptual design t and then detailed design . okay ? right . everybody 's supposed to try out the whiteboard . kate , why do n't you try it first , if you can either bring your things with you , i guess industrial designer: uh yeah , if i can pick up with all these bits and pieces , hang on . project manager: and while you 're doing that we 'll try and figure out how to hook these things on as well , 'cause we 're all gon na have to be able to walk around . industrial designer: uh right , so you want an animal and the characteristics of that animal . project manager: industrial designer: do you have to be able to recognise what animal it is ? um project manager: uh i do not think so , user interface: are we all gon na draw a cat ? project manager: i think it 's just to try out the whiteboard . ah . industrial designer: only animal i could thin i could draw . marketing: i know . industrial designer: its a sort of bunny rabbit cat . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: you can tell it 's not a bunny rabbit by the ears . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: um i suppose it should have a mouth as well , sort of project manager: okay . industrial designer: right , yeah . project manager: great . and the characteristics ? industrial designer: um the favourite characteristics of the cat um the whiskers i think , um because they 're the easiest to draw . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: in fact , i 'll give it some more project manager: okay . industrial designer: oh , and the tail project manager: fantastic . since you 're handy as well , why do n't you do yours next , steph . i think it 's to get us used to using the pen . industrial designer: yes . um sure it 's not to test our artistic project manager: uh no . a mouse-y ? industrial designer: it 's a mouse . user interface: that 's not a mouse-y , no . industrial designer: no it 's not a mouse . it 's a wombat . project manager: oh . user interface: it 's a ratty . project manager: argh . industrial designer: a what ? project manager: rat . user interface: a ratty . project manager: not a mouse , a rat . industrial designer: a webbed foot . webbed f user interface: it 's clothes . that 's it 's clothes . project manager: industrial designer: oh right . user interface: it 's a ratty with a with a with a very long tail . project manager: and your favourite characteristics of that animal . user interface: i love whiskers . uh they 're intelligent and they 're cheeky and uh fantastic pets project manager: oh . user interface: and very friendly . project manager: okay . kate ? industrial designer: user interface: and they sit on your shoulder and whisper the answers to your homework in your ear when you 're doing your homework . project manager: marketing: thanks . project manager: oh , a fish . industrial designer: gosh , user interface: a shark ? industrial designer: why did n't i think of fish ? that 's even easier to draw than cat . marketing: mm this is very representational fish . project manager: oh , okay . industrial designer: project manager: fine . marketing: um i like them because they 're sleek project manager: favourite characteristics ? marketing: and they have a lot of freedom but they also do n uh swim in groups , project manager: 'kay . marketing: so . project manager: so they have team elements . industrial designer: marketing: do you have a favourite one ? project manager: i 'm afraid i 'm with steph . and i think your pen 's running out of whatever . but i 'm afraid i take the coward 's way out , and the cat 's looking the other way . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: he 's hiding . marketing: project manager: um cats are sometimes very independent . my parents had cats . uh and they can mm decide for themselves what is best . okay . now um we have to get down to the nitty-gritty of how to make this and this remote control has to be sold um we 're to sell it for twenty five euros , with a profit aim ultimately of fifty million euros . that tells you something about how many um we have to sell on an international scale . um would be an awful lot of these , would be like what , a hundred million of them um to make twenty five euros on each one and to make a total profit of fifty million . um the production is to only cost twelve and a half euros per item . now if they cost twelve and a half , you 're selling it for twenty five , you 're making twelve and a half euros each . um and we 're to make a profit of fifty million , that 's t uh can you do the maths and how many are we selling ? marketing: uh yeah . i was just wondering if that 's the um if fifty percent is normal project manager: mark-up ? marketing: b yeah . um i would think would be more like sixty percent . but um let me project manager: okay . marketing: i have two thoughts . one hundred , fifty percent . project manager: marketing: and and your question is how many do we have to sell ? project manager: yes , 'cause our market um is international and your problem is has to do with marketing of you know , you got ta know how many we 're going to be selling to know how big a market you have to target and who is that . marketing: at twenty five . mm-hmm . yeah , that 's um project manager: to give you a pretty good idea of where you 're looking . marketing: so that 's four million of them ? project manager: something like that ? okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: that 's fifty million euros . in order to make fifty million euros , and you 're only getting twelve and a half each marketing: and if we make mm-hmm . project manager: that 's a lot of selling . two four marketing: yeah . four million . project manager: to be fifty , be four million . you 'd have to sell four million . marketing: hmm . project manager: okay ? right . experience with a remote control . any of you use of remote control for a television or d_v_d_ or something ? you 're both nodding , industrial designer: that that that 's the sorta product we 're talking about , one that will work for a in a home environment , for a tvs and marketing: yeah . project manager: all three . well i 've seen some remote controls that are for more than one device at a time , but i also have heard about them not working well or not well co-ordinated and you wind up working with this one for thi this three and then this one over here for another . user interface: it is true that you always sit around you know , you 're sitting on your sofa and you wan na change something , there 's five different remotes , and one for the d_v_d_ and one for the video and one for cable and one for whatever else . industrial designer: marketing: mm-hmm . y yeah . project manager: and they do n't always talk to each other . user interface: but i presume this is t i presume this is just for television . project manager: do n't know . okay . marketing: project manager: are there any um ideas for the remote ? what would it be for and what group would be be for ? we have to think about that one . marketing: we could make a hello kitty industrial designer: marketing: themed remote . project manager: user interface: i think one in b bright colours would be good . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think one that works would be good . marketing: we could totally go for the japan-a-mation . well i mean there 's also the cachet that um uh the japanese make great products . electrical their industrial design is very good . user interface: i think one that does n't have lots of superfluous functions . like i 've got one at home that has well , apart from the obvious , channels , channel up , channel down , volume , marketing: yeah . user interface: you know , subtitles , mute , there 's a lotta buttons that i 've got no idea what they do , like . project manager: marketing: well , that 's a really good point , project manager: okay . marketing: because i think one of the things that being somewhat computer literate , we tend to um go to menus and then make choices , you know , so if it 's like an uh volume button , you know , you can go in and say mute or or volume . we do n't need to have like the l the numbers if we also have uh uh channel up channel down . user interface: mm . project manager: mm . okay . marketing: mm . we can make it smart like an ipod , you know , make everything menus . user interface: ooh , closing the meeting . project manager: yeah . um i know this sounds like it was very quick , user interface: that was quick . project manager: but the i think that 's the industrial design is the first one , industrial designer: mm . project manager: that 's kate , for the working design . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and user , that 's you s steph , for the technical functions design , and for marketing the user requirements specification . i think there 's going to be a lot of we have to help each other and work through this as a group , and i think we all , you know , we like our kitty-cat and our rat and our fish , but i think we all have to like each other um to get this done . uh as it says , we 're gon na get individual instructions , but uh i do n't think they allowed a lot of extra time , so i think a little bit of less of this and more at do will set us in good stead . do you all agree ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: alright . um then i do n't see any reason to prolong it and f we should finish this meeting at ni right now and go into other things . alright , so this is the end of the first meeting . marketing: okay . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: thank you all .

project manager thought that setting the selling target was of high importance for a big international company making marketing plans including sales target .

summarize the discussion about the design of the remote control . </s> marketing: is this okay ? project manager: uh yeah . fine now . oh , it 's not liking us , it went that-a-way . computer adjusting . oh . uh . okay . so . right . you ready back there ? uh okay . welcome everyone . um this is the kick-off meeting for the day . um we 're the new group uh to create a new remote control for real reaction . as you can see our agenda is to open up the meeting , um become acquainted with each other , um have a little training on tools , uh create a plan , discuss things and and we only have twenty minut twenty five minutes total . okay . the new remote control is to be original , trendy and user-friendly . that , steph , is your part , is the user-friendliness . the originality um is gon na take all of us . um the trendiness we 'll probably go look at for some marketing research information from you , sarah . um and we 'll get on with it . okay , so we 'll have a functional design individual work um with meeting and then conceptual design t and then detailed design . okay ? right . everybody 's supposed to try out the whiteboard . kate , why do n't you try it first , if you can either bring your things with you , i guess industrial designer: uh yeah , if i can pick up with all these bits and pieces , hang on . project manager: and while you 're doing that we 'll try and figure out how to hook these things on as well , 'cause we 're all gon na have to be able to walk around . industrial designer: uh right , so you want an animal and the characteristics of that animal . project manager: industrial designer: do you have to be able to recognise what animal it is ? um project manager: uh i do not think so , user interface: are we all gon na draw a cat ? project manager: i think it 's just to try out the whiteboard . ah . industrial designer: only animal i could thin i could draw . marketing: i know . industrial designer: its a sort of bunny rabbit cat . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: you can tell it 's not a bunny rabbit by the ears . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: um i suppose it should have a mouth as well , sort of project manager: okay . industrial designer: right , yeah . project manager: great . and the characteristics ? industrial designer: um the favourite characteristics of the cat um the whiskers i think , um because they 're the easiest to draw . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: in fact , i 'll give it some more project manager: okay . industrial designer: oh , and the tail project manager: fantastic . since you 're handy as well , why do n't you do yours next , steph . i think it 's to get us used to using the pen . industrial designer: yes . um sure it 's not to test our artistic project manager: uh no . a mouse-y ? industrial designer: it 's a mouse . user interface: that 's not a mouse-y , no . industrial designer: no it 's not a mouse . it 's a wombat . project manager: oh . user interface: it 's a ratty . project manager: argh . industrial designer: a what ? project manager: rat . user interface: a ratty . project manager: not a mouse , a rat . industrial designer: a webbed foot . webbed f user interface: it 's clothes . that 's it 's clothes . project manager: industrial designer: oh right . user interface: it 's a ratty with a with a with a very long tail . project manager: and your favourite characteristics of that animal . user interface: i love whiskers . uh they 're intelligent and they 're cheeky and uh fantastic pets project manager: oh . user interface: and very friendly . project manager: okay . kate ? industrial designer: user interface: and they sit on your shoulder and whisper the answers to your homework in your ear when you 're doing your homework . project manager: marketing: thanks . project manager: oh , a fish . industrial designer: gosh , user interface: a shark ? industrial designer: why did n't i think of fish ? that 's even easier to draw than cat . marketing: mm this is very representational fish . project manager: oh , okay . industrial designer: project manager: fine . marketing: um i like them because they 're sleek project manager: favourite characteristics ? marketing: and they have a lot of freedom but they also do n uh swim in groups , project manager: 'kay . marketing: so . project manager: so they have team elements . industrial designer: marketing: do you have a favourite one ? project manager: i 'm afraid i 'm with steph . and i think your pen 's running out of whatever . but i 'm afraid i take the coward 's way out , and the cat 's looking the other way . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: he 's hiding . marketing: project manager: um cats are sometimes very independent . my parents had cats . uh and they can mm decide for themselves what is best . okay . now um we have to get down to the nitty-gritty of how to make this and this remote control has to be sold um we 're to sell it for twenty five euros , with a profit aim ultimately of fifty million euros . that tells you something about how many um we have to sell on an international scale . um would be an awful lot of these , would be like what , a hundred million of them um to make twenty five euros on each one and to make a total profit of fifty million . um the production is to only cost twelve and a half euros per item . now if they cost twelve and a half , you 're selling it for twenty five , you 're making twelve and a half euros each . um and we 're to make a profit of fifty million , that 's t uh can you do the maths and how many are we selling ? marketing: uh yeah . i was just wondering if that 's the um if fifty percent is normal project manager: mark-up ? marketing: b yeah . um i would think would be more like sixty percent . but um let me project manager: okay . marketing: i have two thoughts . one hundred , fifty percent . project manager: marketing: and and your question is how many do we have to sell ? project manager: yes , 'cause our market um is international and your problem is has to do with marketing of you know , you got ta know how many we 're going to be selling to know how big a market you have to target and who is that . marketing: at twenty five . mm-hmm . yeah , that 's um project manager: to give you a pretty good idea of where you 're looking . marketing: so that 's four million of them ? project manager: something like that ? okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: that 's fifty million euros . in order to make fifty million euros , and you 're only getting twelve and a half each marketing: and if we make mm-hmm . project manager: that 's a lot of selling . two four marketing: yeah . four million . project manager: to be fifty , be four million . you 'd have to sell four million . marketing: hmm . project manager: okay ? right . experience with a remote control . any of you use of remote control for a television or d_v_d_ or something ? you 're both nodding , industrial designer: that that that 's the sorta product we 're talking about , one that will work for a in a home environment , for a tvs and marketing: yeah . project manager: all three . well i 've seen some remote controls that are for more than one device at a time , but i also have heard about them not working well or not well co-ordinated and you wind up working with this one for thi this three and then this one over here for another . user interface: it is true that you always sit around you know , you 're sitting on your sofa and you wan na change something , there 's five different remotes , and one for the d_v_d_ and one for the video and one for cable and one for whatever else . industrial designer: marketing: mm-hmm . y yeah . project manager: and they do n't always talk to each other . user interface: but i presume this is t i presume this is just for television . project manager: do n't know . okay . marketing: project manager: are there any um ideas for the remote ? what would it be for and what group would be be for ? we have to think about that one . marketing: we could make a hello kitty industrial designer: marketing: themed remote . project manager: user interface: i think one in b bright colours would be good . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think one that works would be good . marketing: we could totally go for the japan-a-mation . well i mean there 's also the cachet that um uh the japanese make great products . electrical their industrial design is very good . user interface: i think one that does n't have lots of superfluous functions . like i 've got one at home that has well , apart from the obvious , channels , channel up , channel down , volume , marketing: yeah . user interface: you know , subtitles , mute , there 's a lotta buttons that i 've got no idea what they do , like . project manager: marketing: well , that 's a really good point , project manager: okay . marketing: because i think one of the things that being somewhat computer literate , we tend to um go to menus and then make choices , you know , so if it 's like an uh volume button , you know , you can go in and say mute or or volume . we do n't need to have like the l the numbers if we also have uh uh channel up channel down . user interface: mm . project manager: mm . okay . marketing: mm . we can make it smart like an ipod , you know , make everything menus . user interface: ooh , closing the meeting . project manager: yeah . um i know this sounds like it was very quick , user interface: that was quick . project manager: but the i think that 's the industrial design is the first one , industrial designer: mm . project manager: that 's kate , for the working design . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and user , that 's you s steph , for the technical functions design , and for marketing the user requirements specification . i think there 's going to be a lot of we have to help each other and work through this as a group , and i think we all , you know , we like our kitty-cat and our rat and our fish , but i think we all have to like each other um to get this done . uh as it says , we 're gon na get individual instructions , but uh i do n't think they allowed a lot of extra time , so i think a little bit of less of this and more at do will set us in good stead . do you all agree ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: alright . um then i do n't see any reason to prolong it and f we should finish this meeting at ni right now and go into other things . alright , so this is the end of the first meeting . marketing: okay . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: thank you all .

user interface presumed that the remote control was only for the television , and suggested that the technical functions should be simple and removed the superfluous functions . they also suggested setting the theme of the remote control as hello kitty , and making it in bright colours .

what did user interface think about the technical function design of the new remote control ? </s> marketing: is this okay ? project manager: uh yeah . fine now . oh , it 's not liking us , it went that-a-way . computer adjusting . oh . uh . okay . so . right . you ready back there ? uh okay . welcome everyone . um this is the kick-off meeting for the day . um we 're the new group uh to create a new remote control for real reaction . as you can see our agenda is to open up the meeting , um become acquainted with each other , um have a little training on tools , uh create a plan , discuss things and and we only have twenty minut twenty five minutes total . okay . the new remote control is to be original , trendy and user-friendly . that , steph , is your part , is the user-friendliness . the originality um is gon na take all of us . um the trendiness we 'll probably go look at for some marketing research information from you , sarah . um and we 'll get on with it . okay , so we 'll have a functional design individual work um with meeting and then conceptual design t and then detailed design . okay ? right . everybody 's supposed to try out the whiteboard . kate , why do n't you try it first , if you can either bring your things with you , i guess industrial designer: uh yeah , if i can pick up with all these bits and pieces , hang on . project manager: and while you 're doing that we 'll try and figure out how to hook these things on as well , 'cause we 're all gon na have to be able to walk around . industrial designer: uh right , so you want an animal and the characteristics of that animal . project manager: industrial designer: do you have to be able to recognise what animal it is ? um project manager: uh i do not think so , user interface: are we all gon na draw a cat ? project manager: i think it 's just to try out the whiteboard . ah . industrial designer: only animal i could thin i could draw . marketing: i know . industrial designer: its a sort of bunny rabbit cat . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: you can tell it 's not a bunny rabbit by the ears . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: um i suppose it should have a mouth as well , sort of project manager: okay . industrial designer: right , yeah . project manager: great . and the characteristics ? industrial designer: um the favourite characteristics of the cat um the whiskers i think , um because they 're the easiest to draw . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: in fact , i 'll give it some more project manager: okay . industrial designer: oh , and the tail project manager: fantastic . since you 're handy as well , why do n't you do yours next , steph . i think it 's to get us used to using the pen . industrial designer: yes . um sure it 's not to test our artistic project manager: uh no . a mouse-y ? industrial designer: it 's a mouse . user interface: that 's not a mouse-y , no . industrial designer: no it 's not a mouse . it 's a wombat . project manager: oh . user interface: it 's a ratty . project manager: argh . industrial designer: a what ? project manager: rat . user interface: a ratty . project manager: not a mouse , a rat . industrial designer: a webbed foot . webbed f user interface: it 's clothes . that 's it 's clothes . project manager: industrial designer: oh right . user interface: it 's a ratty with a with a with a very long tail . project manager: and your favourite characteristics of that animal . user interface: i love whiskers . uh they 're intelligent and they 're cheeky and uh fantastic pets project manager: oh . user interface: and very friendly . project manager: okay . kate ? industrial designer: user interface: and they sit on your shoulder and whisper the answers to your homework in your ear when you 're doing your homework . project manager: marketing: thanks . project manager: oh , a fish . industrial designer: gosh , user interface: a shark ? industrial designer: why did n't i think of fish ? that 's even easier to draw than cat . marketing: mm this is very representational fish . project manager: oh , okay . industrial designer: project manager: fine . marketing: um i like them because they 're sleek project manager: favourite characteristics ? marketing: and they have a lot of freedom but they also do n uh swim in groups , project manager: 'kay . marketing: so . project manager: so they have team elements . industrial designer: marketing: do you have a favourite one ? project manager: i 'm afraid i 'm with steph . and i think your pen 's running out of whatever . but i 'm afraid i take the coward 's way out , and the cat 's looking the other way . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: he 's hiding . marketing: project manager: um cats are sometimes very independent . my parents had cats . uh and they can mm decide for themselves what is best . okay . now um we have to get down to the nitty-gritty of how to make this and this remote control has to be sold um we 're to sell it for twenty five euros , with a profit aim ultimately of fifty million euros . that tells you something about how many um we have to sell on an international scale . um would be an awful lot of these , would be like what , a hundred million of them um to make twenty five euros on each one and to make a total profit of fifty million . um the production is to only cost twelve and a half euros per item . now if they cost twelve and a half , you 're selling it for twenty five , you 're making twelve and a half euros each . um and we 're to make a profit of fifty million , that 's t uh can you do the maths and how many are we selling ? marketing: uh yeah . i was just wondering if that 's the um if fifty percent is normal project manager: mark-up ? marketing: b yeah . um i would think would be more like sixty percent . but um let me project manager: okay . marketing: i have two thoughts . one hundred , fifty percent . project manager: marketing: and and your question is how many do we have to sell ? project manager: yes , 'cause our market um is international and your problem is has to do with marketing of you know , you got ta know how many we 're going to be selling to know how big a market you have to target and who is that . marketing: at twenty five . mm-hmm . yeah , that 's um project manager: to give you a pretty good idea of where you 're looking . marketing: so that 's four million of them ? project manager: something like that ? okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: that 's fifty million euros . in order to make fifty million euros , and you 're only getting twelve and a half each marketing: and if we make mm-hmm . project manager: that 's a lot of selling . two four marketing: yeah . four million . project manager: to be fifty , be four million . you 'd have to sell four million . marketing: hmm . project manager: okay ? right . experience with a remote control . any of you use of remote control for a television or d_v_d_ or something ? you 're both nodding , industrial designer: that that that 's the sorta product we 're talking about , one that will work for a in a home environment , for a tvs and marketing: yeah . project manager: all three . well i 've seen some remote controls that are for more than one device at a time , but i also have heard about them not working well or not well co-ordinated and you wind up working with this one for thi this three and then this one over here for another . user interface: it is true that you always sit around you know , you 're sitting on your sofa and you wan na change something , there 's five different remotes , and one for the d_v_d_ and one for the video and one for cable and one for whatever else . industrial designer: marketing: mm-hmm . y yeah . project manager: and they do n't always talk to each other . user interface: but i presume this is t i presume this is just for television . project manager: do n't know . okay . marketing: project manager: are there any um ideas for the remote ? what would it be for and what group would be be for ? we have to think about that one . marketing: we could make a hello kitty industrial designer: marketing: themed remote . project manager: user interface: i think one in b bright colours would be good . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think one that works would be good . marketing: we could totally go for the japan-a-mation . well i mean there 's also the cachet that um uh the japanese make great products . electrical their industrial design is very good . user interface: i think one that does n't have lots of superfluous functions . like i 've got one at home that has well , apart from the obvious , channels , channel up , channel down , volume , marketing: yeah . user interface: you know , subtitles , mute , there 's a lotta buttons that i 've got no idea what they do , like . project manager: marketing: well , that 's a really good point , project manager: okay . marketing: because i think one of the things that being somewhat computer literate , we tend to um go to menus and then make choices , you know , so if it 's like an uh volume button , you know , you can go in and say mute or or volume . we do n't need to have like the l the numbers if we also have uh uh channel up channel down . user interface: mm . project manager: mm . okay . marketing: mm . we can make it smart like an ipod , you know , make everything menus . user interface: ooh , closing the meeting . project manager: yeah . um i know this sounds like it was very quick , user interface: that was quick . project manager: but the i think that 's the industrial design is the first one , industrial designer: mm . project manager: that 's kate , for the working design . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and user , that 's you s steph , for the technical functions design , and for marketing the user requirements specification . i think there 's going to be a lot of we have to help each other and work through this as a group , and i think we all , you know , we like our kitty-cat and our rat and our fish , but i think we all have to like each other um to get this done . uh as it says , we 're gon na get individual instructions , but uh i do n't think they allowed a lot of extra time , so i think a little bit of less of this and more at do will set us in good stead . do you all agree ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: alright . um then i do n't see any reason to prolong it and f we should finish this meeting at ni right now and go into other things . alright , so this is the end of the first meeting . marketing: okay . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: thank you all .

user interface argued that the simplicity of the remote control of high importance , which means superfluous functions such as subtitles and mute should be removed from the remote control and be controlled through the menu .

why did user interface agree with industrial designer 's opinion when discussing the adapted product of the remote control ? </s> marketing: is this okay ? project manager: uh yeah . fine now . oh , it 's not liking us , it went that-a-way . computer adjusting . oh . uh . okay . so . right . you ready back there ? uh okay . welcome everyone . um this is the kick-off meeting for the day . um we 're the new group uh to create a new remote control for real reaction . as you can see our agenda is to open up the meeting , um become acquainted with each other , um have a little training on tools , uh create a plan , discuss things and and we only have twenty minut twenty five minutes total . okay . the new remote control is to be original , trendy and user-friendly . that , steph , is your part , is the user-friendliness . the originality um is gon na take all of us . um the trendiness we 'll probably go look at for some marketing research information from you , sarah . um and we 'll get on with it . okay , so we 'll have a functional design individual work um with meeting and then conceptual design t and then detailed design . okay ? right . everybody 's supposed to try out the whiteboard . kate , why do n't you try it first , if you can either bring your things with you , i guess industrial designer: uh yeah , if i can pick up with all these bits and pieces , hang on . project manager: and while you 're doing that we 'll try and figure out how to hook these things on as well , 'cause we 're all gon na have to be able to walk around . industrial designer: uh right , so you want an animal and the characteristics of that animal . project manager: industrial designer: do you have to be able to recognise what animal it is ? um project manager: uh i do not think so , user interface: are we all gon na draw a cat ? project manager: i think it 's just to try out the whiteboard . ah . industrial designer: only animal i could thin i could draw . marketing: i know . industrial designer: its a sort of bunny rabbit cat . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: you can tell it 's not a bunny rabbit by the ears . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: um i suppose it should have a mouth as well , sort of project manager: okay . industrial designer: right , yeah . project manager: great . and the characteristics ? industrial designer: um the favourite characteristics of the cat um the whiskers i think , um because they 're the easiest to draw . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: in fact , i 'll give it some more project manager: okay . industrial designer: oh , and the tail project manager: fantastic . since you 're handy as well , why do n't you do yours next , steph . i think it 's to get us used to using the pen . industrial designer: yes . um sure it 's not to test our artistic project manager: uh no . a mouse-y ? industrial designer: it 's a mouse . user interface: that 's not a mouse-y , no . industrial designer: no it 's not a mouse . it 's a wombat . project manager: oh . user interface: it 's a ratty . project manager: argh . industrial designer: a what ? project manager: rat . user interface: a ratty . project manager: not a mouse , a rat . industrial designer: a webbed foot . webbed f user interface: it 's clothes . that 's it 's clothes . project manager: industrial designer: oh right . user interface: it 's a ratty with a with a with a very long tail . project manager: and your favourite characteristics of that animal . user interface: i love whiskers . uh they 're intelligent and they 're cheeky and uh fantastic pets project manager: oh . user interface: and very friendly . project manager: okay . kate ? industrial designer: user interface: and they sit on your shoulder and whisper the answers to your homework in your ear when you 're doing your homework . project manager: marketing: thanks . project manager: oh , a fish . industrial designer: gosh , user interface: a shark ? industrial designer: why did n't i think of fish ? that 's even easier to draw than cat . marketing: mm this is very representational fish . project manager: oh , okay . industrial designer: project manager: fine . marketing: um i like them because they 're sleek project manager: favourite characteristics ? marketing: and they have a lot of freedom but they also do n uh swim in groups , project manager: 'kay . marketing: so . project manager: so they have team elements . industrial designer: marketing: do you have a favourite one ? project manager: i 'm afraid i 'm with steph . and i think your pen 's running out of whatever . but i 'm afraid i take the coward 's way out , and the cat 's looking the other way . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: he 's hiding . marketing: project manager: um cats are sometimes very independent . my parents had cats . uh and they can mm decide for themselves what is best . okay . now um we have to get down to the nitty-gritty of how to make this and this remote control has to be sold um we 're to sell it for twenty five euros , with a profit aim ultimately of fifty million euros . that tells you something about how many um we have to sell on an international scale . um would be an awful lot of these , would be like what , a hundred million of them um to make twenty five euros on each one and to make a total profit of fifty million . um the production is to only cost twelve and a half euros per item . now if they cost twelve and a half , you 're selling it for twenty five , you 're making twelve and a half euros each . um and we 're to make a profit of fifty million , that 's t uh can you do the maths and how many are we selling ? marketing: uh yeah . i was just wondering if that 's the um if fifty percent is normal project manager: mark-up ? marketing: b yeah . um i would think would be more like sixty percent . but um let me project manager: okay . marketing: i have two thoughts . one hundred , fifty percent . project manager: marketing: and and your question is how many do we have to sell ? project manager: yes , 'cause our market um is international and your problem is has to do with marketing of you know , you got ta know how many we 're going to be selling to know how big a market you have to target and who is that . marketing: at twenty five . mm-hmm . yeah , that 's um project manager: to give you a pretty good idea of where you 're looking . marketing: so that 's four million of them ? project manager: something like that ? okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: that 's fifty million euros . in order to make fifty million euros , and you 're only getting twelve and a half each marketing: and if we make mm-hmm . project manager: that 's a lot of selling . two four marketing: yeah . four million . project manager: to be fifty , be four million . you 'd have to sell four million . marketing: hmm . project manager: okay ? right . experience with a remote control . any of you use of remote control for a television or d_v_d_ or something ? you 're both nodding , industrial designer: that that that 's the sorta product we 're talking about , one that will work for a in a home environment , for a tvs and marketing: yeah . project manager: all three . well i 've seen some remote controls that are for more than one device at a time , but i also have heard about them not working well or not well co-ordinated and you wind up working with this one for thi this three and then this one over here for another . user interface: it is true that you always sit around you know , you 're sitting on your sofa and you wan na change something , there 's five different remotes , and one for the d_v_d_ and one for the video and one for cable and one for whatever else . industrial designer: marketing: mm-hmm . y yeah . project manager: and they do n't always talk to each other . user interface: but i presume this is t i presume this is just for television . project manager: do n't know . okay . marketing: project manager: are there any um ideas for the remote ? what would it be for and what group would be be for ? we have to think about that one . marketing: we could make a hello kitty industrial designer: marketing: themed remote . project manager: user interface: i think one in b bright colours would be good . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think one that works would be good . marketing: we could totally go for the japan-a-mation . well i mean there 's also the cachet that um uh the japanese make great products . electrical their industrial design is very good . user interface: i think one that does n't have lots of superfluous functions . like i 've got one at home that has well , apart from the obvious , channels , channel up , channel down , volume , marketing: yeah . user interface: you know , subtitles , mute , there 's a lotta buttons that i 've got no idea what they do , like . project manager: marketing: well , that 's a really good point , project manager: okay . marketing: because i think one of the things that being somewhat computer literate , we tend to um go to menus and then make choices , you know , so if it 's like an uh volume button , you know , you can go in and say mute or or volume . we do n't need to have like the l the numbers if we also have uh uh channel up channel down . user interface: mm . project manager: mm . okay . marketing: mm . we can make it smart like an ipod , you know , make everything menus . user interface: ooh , closing the meeting . project manager: yeah . um i know this sounds like it was very quick , user interface: that was quick . project manager: but the i think that 's the industrial design is the first one , industrial designer: mm . project manager: that 's kate , for the working design . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and user , that 's you s steph , for the technical functions design , and for marketing the user requirements specification . i think there 's going to be a lot of we have to help each other and work through this as a group , and i think we all , you know , we like our kitty-cat and our rat and our fish , but i think we all have to like each other um to get this done . uh as it says , we 're gon na get individual instructions , but uh i do n't think they allowed a lot of extra time , so i think a little bit of less of this and more at do will set us in good stead . do you all agree ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: alright . um then i do n't see any reason to prolong it and f we should finish this meeting at ni right now and go into other things . alright , so this is the end of the first meeting . marketing: okay . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: thank you all .

user interface held the same opinion as industrial designer that different remote controls that were incompatible with each other brought inconvenience to users . user interface still presumed that this remote control was only for television .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> industrial designer: 's to do now is to decide how to fulfil what your stuff is , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so in that sense project manager: okay . marketing: yeah , sure . industrial designer: so it does kind of make sense , yeah . project manager: okay , well marketing: it kinda does make sense , does n't it , because when we get into the end of meeting we 're kind of talking about action and design as opposed to background . industrial designer: yep . project manager: okay . marketing: everything i have is kinda background . project manager: okay we all ready to go ? industrial designer: yep . project manager: well how um on the in this meeting then if we um i 'll just just recap on the minutes from the last meeting . and we uh decided on industrial designer: yep . project manager: decided on our our target group being fifteen to thirty five , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and we decided that it was gon na be non-rechargeable battery-powered , that we 're gon na group our audio-visual and other functions into into those categories , um . and i told you guys about the three new requirements about ignoring teletext , ignoring everything except the tv , and trying to incorporate the the uh corporate colour and slogan . um so that was the last meeting . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: is there anything have i forgotten anything ? industrial designer: no . project manager: is that everything ? marketing: uh that sounds . project manager: okay . um so if we have the three presentations , and then if you have anything to kind of that you know you 're gon na want to discuss , maybe just make a note of it , and we 'll have all the discussion at the end . that might be a better idea this time . marketing: sure . project manager: and so if we start off uh with andrew and then craig and then david , marketing: okay . project manager: if that 's alright . marketing: sure . industrial designer: yep . project manager: um and then after that we 'll have to make some decisions about stuff , right . marketing: yeah , cool . project manager: so if you wan na take this . marketing: why do n't i get that ? hmm . project manager: screwed in quite tightly . uh what did uh how did we leave it with speech recognition now ? we did we say we were gon na try maybe incorporate it but we had n't made a definite decision on that ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: right . oh i should also point out that um the you know the kind of final objective of this meeting is to reach a decision on the concepts of the product . marketing: okay . project manager: so um that 's kind of the end result hopefully . marketing: okay . um alright so c is it function f_ eight ? project manager: uh-huh . hopefully appear in a wee second . marketing: hmm . come on . i think it 's working . project manager: up there we go . marketing: okay great s so let me just start this . okay great . so um uh s move on . uh-huh oh where 'd it all go ? project manager: oh no . marketing: it 's not good . okay lem me just see where i can find it . this looks more like it . i think i just opened up the template . project manager: oh right . marketing: sorry about that . okay alright so let 's have a look here . project manager: here we go . marketing: okay so this was the method that um i 've taken . uh basically what i wan na do here , before we get into it uh too far , is i want to show you all the background information i have that i think we need to acknowledge if we want this to be successful . project manager: okay . marketing: and uh and then sorta g go through some of the way that i 've dealt with that information , and then sort of bring us all together into it to see sorta see how this fits in with the overall vision . um so i 've tried to take a whole lot of market research and summarise it for us , and then ide identify uh trends that are are sort of in sync and are important to our our uh p project plan that we have so far , and then uh initiate a kind of discussion on design options so that it sorta helps us to to narrow in on on aspects that will inform other uh other elements of the of the project . does that make sense , tha that sort of strategy ? industrial designer: yep . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: i thought that that will impact on the rest of what we do , so that 's why i suggested we get in this . project manager: aye a fair point definitely . marketing: okay so out of um different uh figures and ratings ob uh of people in general , um consumers in general , the number one thing that was found was that uh the br t television remote control , a fancy look and feel , okay , and not , it specified , not a functional look or or feel , uh b f f fancy . project manager: okay . marketing: um however , this is where we kinda have to be very , i think , creative about it . number two was that it be innovative . okay so that tells me that we have to find a way to be innovative without a adding just unnecessary um sort of functional bits to it . uh and third priority uh for ease of use , so again that kind of gives us a general picture of how it has to be , um quite user friendly while still having technology . so it i 'll just say right away as a bit of a foreshadowing into how we proceed with this in terms of m marketing , is that i think um what we should think about is how the um about how the innovation uh contributes to the look and feel , and not so much to the functionality of it . project manager: aye right . marketing: for example like when you pick it up and push it like it all lights up or something , you know what i mean , like , or it 's got something else to it that just seems innovative project manager: uh-huh . marketing: because obviously the thing that the message here is ease of use . so how do you make innovation make something more more easy to use ? well that 's i guess where we 're gon na go with this . project manager: okay . marketing: okay then there 's the other aspect of the back the the market um research i have here is on fashion style , okay , which as we 've agreed is a priority . uh top european fashion trend um that i read about says there 's this emerging theme of fruit and vegetables , okay , industrial designer: project manager: marketing: especially in clothes and furniture . and when i first saw that i thought hmm , well do we want to actually try and think about this trend and how we add something to it , or we get right into it , or we completely steer away from it , project manager: okay okay . marketing: do you know what i mean ? so my my feeling is that we w do want to observe this trend , but we want to think also about the fact that it sort of has to fit in with something which is not specifically electronics . um 'cause i think what we 're in what we 're in is partly sort of home decor , partly something like a computer , um so i think we might wan na be careful about how you know how quickly we create like a remote control in the shape of an apple or something , project manager: marketing: i think that would be pushing it . industrial designer: marketing: and then in terms of m material trends are for things to be soft and spongy and sort of , you might say ergonomic or or friendly to handle , which is which also in indicated that last year this was this was not the case . so um probably a lot of the competition on the market will be still in last year 's mode , so if we try and really capitalise on that , i think that 'll be in our favour . um so these this is the summary of everything . um style is number one uh thing in the in the market of who we 're selling to . uh innovative design technology 's also a must in that it 's seen it 'd be seen to be uh cutting edge , uh but ease of use t has to be insured throughout . that was like the number three thing . and then at the end there are vibrant natural colours um that 's the way i interpreted it anyway , softness in materials , shape , and function , and so i 've written at written at the bottom to give us sort of a context of discussion , mac ipods , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: something which is , i 'd have to say very high-tech , ten gigabytes , whatever , but when you hold it in your hand there 's like no buttons . project manager: mm that 's true , yeah . marketing: you know what a mac ipod is ? i 'm thinking however mac ipod is sort of last year 's because it 's very hard and sort of glassy and glossy , so i 'm thinking if we imagine that we 're taking some of the features of a mac ipod and we 're then making it s more of like a more of like a comfortable type of or more of like a maybe more vibrant to friendly thing to have . um and then so this is w with all that information what i 'm what i 'm suggesting in this slide here is that we we take these ideas , and as we get into more the more um techni like sort of production side of things , that we think about shape , materials , and themes or series that go throughout . sort of like a i dunno like um we think of some kind of a thin theme that unifies it all , that we agree on , uh sorta like a marketing identity . um does that make sense ? yeah . so so like i threw out a few ideas there just to kinda get us thinking along those lines like lemon , lime , i dunno , green colours , pe whatever , it 's just an idea , 'cause i 'm thinking that some of these ideas will seem quite coherent if we use them in terms of their what people associate this them with in terms of texture , shape , colours , things like that . project manager: mm 'kay . great . marketing: like um the ones the ones which i 'm most fond of in terms of giving like a theme to it would be like um like lemon or something like that , you know something which is , like you see a lot in in other areas . like i see lots of websites and things that seem to associate with like lemon and lime and project manager: okay . marketing: so anyway it 's just just an idea . project manager: yeah . marketing: i 'm thinking maybe we could incorporate some of these features into a fairly um into something which is which seems to have something to it which is almost gimmicky because like um like something to do with like lighting within it . like you know just within the simple sense , when you pick up a phone and touch a button it uh lights up , q usually the buttons light up . project manager: ah . marketing: how can we build on that ? maybe like it could light up in different colours or something or or people could buy the buy the control and then it comes with different like covers or something so . project manager: okay . marketing: anyway those are that 's all i have , project manager: that 's great . marketing: but uh hopefully we can we can revisit those ideas when we get into project manager: uh-huh . okay great . marketing: project manager: um thank you for that . uh craig do you wan na marketing: yep . project manager: uh plug yours in then ? user interface: is it working ? project manager: mm . not quite . marketing: did you press f_ eight ? industrial designer: it 's probably not sending . yeah . project manager: oh something coming now , yeah . marketing: industrial designer: yep , there it is . project manager: there we go . user interface: and so think of this concept . um to research it i 've um had a look on the the homepage again . it 's provided me with more examples of um previously existing c remote controls . um there 's a wee bit of discussion about the other existing ones there , um so i 've taken the um suggestions from them and tried to incorporate them into this um so then this we 're looking for um suggestions on size th um size of control and the buttons , um the shape of the control , and whereabout the buttons should be located on the control . project manager: mm . user interface: um what i found from the research is that most the current controls are just basically big bricks with loads of buttons all over them . um they 're not very attractive to look at , and they 're not very comfortable to hold , they 're i just hold 'em like big bricks , and they 're very easily lost . um they tend to be very dark colours , so if there are shadowy places down the side of couches you ca n't really see them . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um the the controls themselves tend to use a very inconsistent colour scheme . um for instance , the stand-by button is n't always red , uh it really should be . it 's uh something the user then uh identify with . this is a red switch off , that 's how it should be . um i 'm not sure if there 's any other examples of that , but something to look out for . um there 's a problem that i 've i 've got couple of preferences for the the end control um i get 'em with the the red colour button for stand-by and s the other examples of that um the buttons should be large . they should n't be tiny little things like you get on some mobile phones . they should be easy to press , very comfortable . um one of the examples given on the homepage was um there 's an up and down volume button but both of them have a v_ on them , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so the up volume button looks like it should be a down volume button , that 's kinda confusing . um should avoid s things like that . um if the the corporate colour scheme allows it we should have a very bright colour so that it can be easily identified anywhere . project manager: okay . user interface: um obviously trying trying to avoid being tacky there , but it could um tie-in very easily with your your lime and lemon idea . marketing: yeah . okay , do we have a corporate colour scheme ? project manager: i think it 's yellow marketing: i did n't know . project manager: because like the website is yellow and there 's a band at the bottom is yellow , marketing: okay . industrial designer: and the play-doh 's yellow . project manager: so yellow , lemon , you know definitely food for thought there , marketing: okay . user interface: fantastic . project manager: but keep going marketing: okay . project manager: and we 'll discuss it after . user interface: um marketing: yeah . user interface: any extra features we add beyond the basic ones should be m hidden , they should n't be on the um should n't be visible without something be opened or some sort of special extra effort . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um if we did decide to go for voice activation there sh should always be a button as alternative , possibly hidden in the the opened up section um making that something is wrong with it or with somebody 's voice , maybe they got a cold or um we should definitely avoid the big square block look . that 's just wrong . project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and um we got an email uh from i think it 's the the research department , and they 've said th the voice control um can now talk back if you ask it a question . project manager: mm . user interface: so it sh it could be good to have them um confirm any action you take project manager: aye that 's a good idea , yeah . user interface: and possibility . right and these are problems i 've had with it . um i do n't know where the slogan should go , or really what the slogan is . i think it 's um , fashion into electronics . project manager: yeah . user interface: and we do n't know how flexible the colour scheme is . i mean you say you wanted the the corporate colours , but they do n't say you know if we can use any other colours at all or marketing: mm . project manager: okay . marketing: mm . industrial designer: cool . user interface: that 's it . project manager: okay . marketing: great . lots of good information there . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah that that was very good , industrial designer: mm 'kay um . project manager: and uh now with david . marketing: user interface: i think i 'm cool . marketing: it 's a shame the cable was n't just in the middle of the table , project manager: i know it 'd be handy , would n't it . user interface: marketing: huh ? just um industrial designer: oops . project manager: do y do you wan na sit in the the line of sight of this um industrial designer: yeah okay . let me just get this going first . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: ah there it is . project manager: marketing: it takes a second , does n't it ? industrial designer: 'kay , that should be it . okay um i guess the same thing again , i started with something very basic . marketing: industrial designer: so just so you guys have some idea of what 's involved in my process , um and then you can just work through it marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and we 'll either modify it or start from scratch um depending on what your needs are . um the components are exactly the same . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um i think , like what you guys said , um the most input that 's needed is basically in the user interface . the rest of the components um they do have an impact in terms of cost and complexity . um like you said time to market was a problem , um and how many components are physically in there in cost . and the power is basically a factor of that . um and the lower components , the power , the logic , the transmitter , and the infrared , um they affect you in terms of the size of your device , um and that would have some inte impact on how y i think more how you hold rather than um the actual use using the the remote control because um like we 've said we 've defined , like we only want the basic things that to be visible , and the rest of them we try to hide . so um you know it 's just a matter of working out space . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so i guess three things , um cost , um complexity , and the size . these are the three things that um will have an impact on you . so just go through it in the components . um these are the options that are available to you , um i 'm not very sure about the voice thing 'cause i got another email and it was in fact quite sketchy on what n the voice options are . user interface: right . industrial designer: um it said it could talk to you , but it never said anything about being able to listen . i it said something about a sensor but never clarified that . marketing: mm . industrial designer: so maybe if you project manager: hmm . industrial designer: well i could see the other email that they sent you , um 'cause they got back to me with like different requirements , or different offerings of what components availa okay so your basic components are buttons , user interface: right . industrial designer: okay and you have a wheel available , like a mouse scroll wheel , project manager: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: okay there 's an lcd display , marketing: industrial designer: um i think these are quite standard things . marketing: they 're standard , are n't they ? industrial designer: no um they 're well in the sense that these are all the options available for you . i 'll explain to you the complexity and the cost thing again a bit later . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: okay um then there 's um how the case actually looks . it can actually be flat or it can be curved , um and then the different types of materials that you can use , um i do n't think you can use them in a combination , um but um project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i could check back for you , but i do n't think you can actually use them in a combination . project manager: we you could n't have like plastic and rubber ? industrial designer: um i think plastic and rubber would be fine , but plastic , rubber , and wood , i was n't i 'm not very sure about the titanium . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: they had some restrictions on using the rubber and the titanium . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: um the rubber was a restriction on the kind of power source you could use , project manager: mm 'kay . industrial designer: but the titanium had a different kind of things on the shape of the thing , project manager: okay . industrial designer: so i think that there is some restriction on um i think you could probably group plastic and rubber together , wood and titanium , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but you know it might be easier from a cost perspective and a complexity just to use one . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: you know as opposed to two . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and the other components are logic chips , um again i 'll i 'll go back to the component chips . the com how complex or how easy the logic is , it depends on how many functions you have on the on the unit um and that impacts cost . um i do n't think the logic chip has a issue about size 'cause they should be about the same size . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: power consumption should be about the same . um i think the main impact is complexity , marketing: hmm . industrial designer: um and the other thing is um the power options . um the first one is a standard battery . okay the second one i think is more of a gimmick then actually a useable thing , it 's a wind-up you know , a crank . project manager: i 'll clear one of these things for you . just by moving it yeah . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: yeah but that that might be something i think that 's more of a look and feel decision because i do n't think you can have one power source if you 're using the alternative power sources . i think whatever it is you still need a battery 'cause i do n't think anybody wants to keep doing one thing . project manager: mm . user interface: marketing: no . industrial designer: okay the other ones are a solar powered cell , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: which may not be a great idea in europe or any country that has seasons 'cause half the year you 'd be dead . user interface: industrial designer: so like what i said , you probably need like a battery and something else . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and the kinetic one i guess for me is the most interesting one project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: because it 's movement and people like to fiddle with their and it 's a nice sales gimmick i think . project manager: mm . industrial designer: from a marketing gimmick it it 's a technology thing , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it 's a shake it it does n't work , shake it , knock it or something . you know project manager: w yeah . industrial designer: you know marketing: hmm . industrial designer: you have you had those balls , you know those stress balls where you bounce the ball and it and it lights up and it goes , project manager: uh yeah yeah , i see . marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: industrial designer: you know that might be a gimmick combined with rubber . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: you know just to if you get frustrated wi remote control you can throw it , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: kind of you know just uh you know um so . um okay user interface: project manager: i know what you mean yeah . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: my from my role , i do n't think that personal preferences but role preferences , i think um something comfortable to hold , um small and slim marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i guess that 's more in the sense of small and slim in terms of comfortable not so small you ca n't , you know like a phone or something , too small phone . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and the other thing is from a production point of view um the less components we use and the simpler the components means you reduce your cost and you increase your profit . um and also the time to market and the complexity of developing designing and debugging it um so . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm mm-hmm mm-hmm . industrial designer: um okay let me just go back and talk about some of the restrictions . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um the user interface restrictions basically means that if you use more complicated features , like the buttons are standard okay , the lcd panel and the scroll wheel you need more complicated logic . um the case okay with a rubber case you ca n't have the solar panels . project manager: mm . industrial designer: okay with the titanium case , let me just check that um , marketing: industrial designer: titanium case ca n't be curved , it has to be square . project manager: okay . industrial designer: okay um there 's no restriction on the plastic , and marketing: it ca n't be curved . industrial designer: it ca n't be curved on the wood . marketing: okay . industrial designer: so that 's again , i do n't think you can use them in a combination , um especially the titanium project manager: okay . industrial designer: i i suspect they 're very fixed to a particular need . project manager: right . industrial designer: so um mixing them may not be a good idea um yep . that 's it . project manager: okay . right can i marketing: uh question on can i ask a question ? project manager: yeah well yeah it 's just i 'm quite keen to get the discussion going with the time we 've left so but yeah you c ask away . marketing: okay . can we uh power a light in this ? can we get a strong enough battery to power a light ? industrial designer: um i think we could because the lcd panel requires power , and the lcd is a form of a light project manager: mm . marketing: okay . industrial designer: so that marketing: so maybe one of the things we can just try and include is a really good battery . project manager: why what kind of light do you want are you thinking of ? marketing: well i mean i 'm thinking it might be that for uh this to be a high-tech thing it 's gon na have to have something high-tech about it project manager: uh-huh . yeah . marketing: and that 's gon na take battery power , and to make that to make that a realistic goal i think one of the issues that will come up later is , can the battery power it ? industrial designer: are you thinking are you thinking of of a light in the sense of um a light light , or a light in the sense of it glows kind of you know frankenstein , it 's alive . marketing: illuminate the buttons . yeah it glows . well m i 'm thinking along the lines of you 're you 're in the dark watching a d_v_d_ and you um you find the thing in the dark and you go like this , industrial designer: okay . marketing: and that 's what everybody does . oh where 's the volume button in the dark , industrial designer: okay . project manager: yeah yeah yeah . marketing: and uh y you just touch it , or you just pick it up , and it lights up or something . project manager: like a phone yeah , like the backlight in a phone . industrial designer: okay . marketing: like a phone , yeah yeah . project manager: okay cool . marketing: whereas with phones , people charge them once a week . project manager: yeah . marketing: we 're gon na need to put in a really good battery so people do n't have to charge their r remote control every few days . industrial designer: um that 's why i think the option of the the kinetic thing which basically means as long as you shake it like a watch , like an automatic watch project manager: mm . marketing: but are people gon na wan na shake their movie controller ? industrial designer: um it 's probably sensitive enough when you fiddle it . marketing: right . industrial designer: so you could trigger that to a light , project manager: mm . marketing: sure . industrial designer: like i said the bouncing ball thing , or you could trigger that to use that to power the light project manager: okay . industrial designer: as opposed to marketing: okay . industrial designer: so when they pick it up , right , and then that that sorta triggers the marketing: right . project manager: okay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: right industrial designer: glowingness . project manager: okay um well marketing: okay , great . project manager: let 's just go right back to the marketing ideas for a start , and just giving an id idea on the time , we 've got about fifteen minutes to play with at most . so um yeah so just t to bear in mind that the ultimate goal of this meeting is to reach an decision on the the the concepts of the product . marketing: okay . okay . project manager: so back to your idea about um incorporating the idea of like fruit and veg , and the corporate colour , and things like that . marketing: yeah . project manager: um i mean what does everybody think about marketing: yeah . project manager: does anybody have any ideas of about how we can fit all that in together ? i mean that 's kind of the user interface type of thing , what are your thoughts on that ? user interface: um i think we could go for like um maybe not a p a fruit shape but a very sort of curvy type shape . um you could have the same sort of texture and colour as a fruit . project manager: so maybe do y are we thinking something that like s could sit in your hand comfortably , or do you th you 'd hold onto comfortably or user interface: um probably something that s sits in your hand comfortably , sort of feels right in your hand . project manager: so something quite curvy ? okay um right okay . colour-wise i mean you made a re uh was it you or uh i ca n't remember who made the point about how if you 've a nice bright colour you 'll not lose it , was that industrial designer: i think he made that . project manager: whose user interface: marketing: what 's that ? project manager: about how if you have a bright colour you 'll not lose it so much . marketing: yeah . project manager: um and when the corporate colour is yellow , i mean maybe we could think about about the colour of the whole product being yellow i do n't know . um marketing: okay . project manager: and then obviously the uh the materials when it has anybody got like an overall picture in their mind about what what might work ? that 's all . marketing: well i mean i 'm thinking that what we need to do is have something that kind of unifies a lot of the different concepts , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and if we think that what we are w our number one marketing motive is um the look and feel . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so for the look and feel to seem coherent and not just sorta bits and bits and pieces of of concept and technology or or whatever or fashion , then we should have it kind of come back to one thing that we kind of all sorta can visualize . um maybe what we could do is t th think about a concept which touches b back to the on the um the colour , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: you said company colour yellow . i mean if we think of something , like i was saying also lime and lemon you know , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: what can we come up with something where we we try and associate it with with like the series . we just come up with something like that we kind of use it as a theme to inspire the project manager: okay . marketing: shapes and things . project manager: right . industrial designer: is there a particular shape that you 're interested in ? like does marketing have any research on does it need to be long ? marketing: industrial designer: does it need with a square thing wha project manager: oh you know like in circular in shape or industrial designer: yeah 'cause that will n help narrow down the choice of marketing: yeah . project manager: choice of material yeah . industrial designer: like fruit . i 'm thinking fruits in my head , but that 's tacky . project manager: 'cause i i i was kinda thinking about as well you know how you get these shock resistant mobile phones , user interface: see i 'm project manager: and they 're plastic but then also have like rubber on the outside , and it kinda feels it feels kind of warmer to the touch . it feels a bit more comfortable , and maybe we could incorporate plastic and rubber into it . and then then we could have curved shapes , 'cause wood or titanium , yeah , it 's gon na have to be boxy and rectangular and i think we might be moving away from that you know so um well i 'm do we really want it in like the shape of a lemon or marketing: no no no not at all . project manager: no i do n't think we do either . marketing: it 's more more just that we we think about like what it is we 're trying to achieve , so and then we have one one sorta theme that we stick with . project manager: okay right well um marketing: do you know what i mean ? project manager: so thoughts about the actual shape of the thing . user interface: i 'd quite like a sort of uh snowman type shape . project manager: a snowman shape ? user interface: um so a p sort of larger bit sits in your hand , and then you got maybe another bubble at the top for just any other function you need . project manager: uh-huh . that 's quite a distinctive shape , marketing: right , project manager: that would be good marketing: sure . project manager: would n't it . yeah marketing: yeah . project manager: so yeah should we go with that ? marketing: um can we yeah like to and wha like do you have a project manager: do you wan na draw it on the board ? user interface: marketing: can you like yeah just t we can visualize it . user interface: um something like that um you got two groups there um maybe it could fold up and you get a third group inside project manager: ooh that 'd be good . user interface: or uh you have volume controls about there . marketing: okay . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . yep . project manager: so call it the snowman-shape trademark . yeah that 's cool . um and i mean colour-wise what does everybody think ? i think it is quite important to get yellow in there somewhere . i mean do you want the whole thing yellow , maybe like yellow and white do you want something marketing: mm . user interface: so i reckon it 'd look quite nice if we just had um this here , had a sorta background yellow , marketing: project manager: uh-huh . user interface: and then have sort of a nice bold colour for the buttons . project manager: okay cool . um and also i mean how are we going to incorporate the slogan in ? the fact that it talks to you , i mean it might be quite cool if when you first start using it it says , what is it , putting fashion into electronics or something , i dunno . or when you like or if you turn it off or something if it can speak if it could actually say the slogan it might be a bit more powerful than just having it written on it somewhere . user interface: i think that might scare me . project manager: i d i d any thoughts on that at all ? user interface: i think that 'd probably scare me . you turn it on your control possessed s . project manager: i know . um unless an a i mean if you also would that work if we wanted to incorporate um an lcd display , where would we put that ? would we put that on the inside or industrial designer: do we need an lcd display ? user interface: um industrial designer: what what 's the functionality of that ? project manager: it 's bound to increase the cost of it a lot , i would 've thought . industrial designer: yeah but the question is what are we using it marketing: what would it achieve ? industrial designer: what would we what would we achieve from it ? putting in lights is cheap but putting in an lcd panel just to make it glow is a bit of a marketing: well l_c_ well i 'd when you used to mention the lcd i 'd think i wonder what that would be about . and the th the thing i could see it helping with would be if it was somehow connected with um listings . project manager: yeah . marketing: so as you scroll through , 'cause we said we might have a jog dial , so as you scroll through your stations you can y it actually tells you what it is . industrial designer: mm-hmm . i think that will be a problem because we do n't have an input device to get the listings into it , marketing: right , okay . industrial designer: so um it 's a bit nuts to get the monday tuesday wednesday you know . project manager: mm oh yeah that 's true . yeah . so so no need for an lcd display ? marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: um i i 'm not saying there 's no need for an lcd display , but um it 's what 's what what would it tell the user , project manager: i think that would make it very complex . industrial designer: 'cause the lcd tends to be an output as uh as opposed to an input so um does the remote control need to talk back to the user ? project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: mm not real industrial designer: we have the option of the speaker as well the sa the same thing goes for the speaker , is there a need for the remote control to to talk back ? marketing: project manager: i do n't know if there is really , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: nah . project manager: no um industrial designer: um project manager: i would say no need for a talk-back . uh does anybody disagree with that ? industrial designer: you could put a game on it . project manager: no ? marketing: no . user interface: marketing: project manager: easy . industrial designer: when the tv dies you can play with the remote control . project manager: okay um right marketing: mm mm . project manager: so you 're gon na have the three different sets of of functionalities , um i mean do you wan na group them into s head of the snowman , body of the snowman , inside of the snowman , is that what you 're thinking ? user interface: um well i think the advanced ones the the ones you do n't usually use could be hid inside . project manager: okay . user interface: b um i think the we had were fairly basic ones , they 'd have to go on the the front somewhere . project manager: okay right um what else do you need to talk about ? marketing: well i i was just industrial designer: where would you physically position the buttons ? um i think that that has some impact on on on many things . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um maybe you wan na draw onto the user interface: um marketing: yeah . project manager: so i 'm just gon na um pop this in here 'cause i have a slide about decision making which i 'd forgotten about . industrial designer: yep . project manager: oh sh god we 've got five minutes um okay uh back we go . um energy what do you think that 's suggesting we 're how we 're powering the thing ? i really like the idea of this kinetic thing where you 'd have the back-up of the battery , but have have kinetic power , marketing: yeah , sure . project manager: i mean what does anybody think about that ? marketing: um i 've had kinetic things before , and the the the one issue we need to keep in mind with them is that you 're committing the user to moving it , industrial designer: no , like i said we have a h hybrid kind of thing , so it 's not gon na charge the battery , it 's just marketing: and watches yeah sure , okay , right , okay . project manager: okay . marketing: support for it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i mean just it 's just worth pointing out because like i 've i 've known i 've known people to have kinetic watches that they wear all the time , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and it 's just like magic because it 's always powered and there 's no battery . i 've also known people to have things like like a jewellery watch they wear from time to time , and they eventually just say it 's just too much of a nuisance because i do n't wear it all the time . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yep . marketing: like remote control is similar , you 're away on vacation , i dunno whatever , you something , and it just starts to get worn down . project manager: yeah . well i suppose that if you 're if you 're away and you 're not using it , then you 're not using any power either . marketing: so we should think about project manager: so you 'd have the battery as the kind of to keep it ticking over idea marketing: yeah . project manager: i 'm really sorry we 're gon na have to wrap up quite quickly , we do n't have as much time as i thought . um so i think that 's what energy is referring to here . marketing: yep . project manager: chip on print , is that that 's an industrial design thing , is it david ? industrial designer: yes yes . project manager: okay um as for the case , kind of discussed that marketing: and this size here , i 'd suggest this be small , like quite small . project manager: yeah i know we 're gon na have like rubber buttons that feel kind of okay . user interface: yeah i think so yeah . marketing: um just a a lot of the um i mean one of the things running through my mind right now , i realise we 're being efficient to wrap up the meeting and have lots of decisions made , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um but we are leaning quite a bit to the side of being low-tech , rubber buttons plastic frame , it 's almost like we 're reproducing the same old remote control that 's out there . project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: should we think about how we are actually getting this high-tech user friendly uh um theme like what is it that we 're u we 're using to to achieve those goals ? project manager: could have things like backlighting the buttons and stuff like that . marketing: like okay so so backlighting , that would be good . industrial designer: or even a clear case . um you know a a glowing a a glowing yellow type case where the yellow is showable , marketing: yeah clear , project manager: aye that would be a good idea . marketing: okay . industrial designer: but in the dark it sort of , it 's alive . user interface: marketing: yeah sure . industrial designer: um in in a slight subtle way . project manager: s so like cur slightly transparent case , so it 's yellow , like tinted yellow , but you can maybe see through it . marketing: yeah that 'd be really good . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . or or there might be a light running through it like a mouse . project manager: is that what you mean ? industrial designer: you know you have cordless mice and they do n't eat that much power right . marketing: sure . industrial designer: so the power the battery in that sense , marketing: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: maybe you have one or two stratig strategically placed lights marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that sort of marketing: sure . yeah they they emanate a light through it . industrial designer: yeah project manager: okay . industrial designer: but because the case is transparent so it gives it a little bit of a glow , does n't make it freaky . project manager: lights . marketing: 'kay . yeah , project manager: okay . marketing: mm-hmm . um and then the other thing that we we 're s we 've committed ourselves to achieving is simplicity , and so i 'm thinking maybe should we try and think about having something like um some kind of an innovative concept about how the um the volume and the channels are controlled , 'cause that 's the main thing people will f wan na do . project manager: mm . marketing: could we use like a jog dial , like a nice just sort of round , somewhere on it where you just roll it ? industrial designer: the question is when you 're rolling it , how do you wan na roll it ? marketing: or industrial designer: do you want 'em to roll it like that ? do you want 'em to roll it like that ? 'cause in a mouse your hand 's in a position to roll it , project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: whereas the other thing about having it jog dial this way , it tends to get moved accidentally . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah if you are holding it in your hand you could you could do that , could n't you ? marketing: well why do n't we do it like a mouse then ? project manager: if you 're holding it in your hand you could industrial designer: that 's a very unnatural motion to project manager: do you think ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: can you imagine you have to scroll a lot . um it might work for volume , and maybe some of the brightness controls and stuff like that , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but not for channels right . project manager: mm . industrial designer: if you have a telewest box you 've got like , you do n't have to buy all the channels , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: you 've about fifty channels , can you imagine trying to . project manager: yeah marketing: yeah . project manager: okay okay industrial designer: um and i do n't think having that you know too quick too slow kin it 's confusing to the marketing: yeah , sure . project manager: um user interface: well , but then for um for skipping a large amount of channels you do have to uh to skip the channel button , the number part . marketing: mm . industrial designer: i dunno . but users tend to tend to want to use that project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and once they lose out on the user experience they 're like because that 's becomes the most accessible thing in front of project manager: okay . user interface: uh but project manager: okay . marketing: but that 's not a bad thing is it ? project manager: just marketing: because when you think about it , the alternative is to go push the button . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: jog dials are much easier than that . project manager: okay um right well would n't it marketing: you just roll . project manager: we do need to make a decision on whether we want to incorporate a jog dial in nice and quickly . um i 'm all for them actually , i think they 're quite you know th very quick to m to use . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: so does anybody oppose the idea of of incorporating one into the design at all ? no . and the other thing was um can we think of any way of getting the slogan into this thing ? marketing: yeah like i mean if we if if we keep coming back to this board here , project manager: uh-huh . marketing: i would n't be surprised if we could take this idea , imagine that , i dunno , that it 's within the shape of the hand , it 's quite small project manager: uh-huh ooh okay , we really got ta wrap up marketing: i dunno . project manager: so yeah . marketing: yeah . it 's small , and that we 've got like the the l slogan somewhere like on the casing at the side , project manager: okay well if we can do that , great . marketing: and that yeah project manager: yeah okay . marketing: well i mean is n't that what we just h said said we s just have to decide now ? project manager: yeah let 's let 's try and get the slogan on there um , and marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so you wan na expand the shape of the marketing: and then like a jo and then like a jog dial somewhere that fits in with the shape of it like i dunno like here , in with the industrial designer: that that might have one problem in terms of um in terms of whether you 're left handed or you 're right handed you might be locking yourself in . marketing: it would get bumped , it 's does n't really fit with your hand . project manager: mm . marketing: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: or maybe just fit it in like down the middle here . industrial designer: could i just could i just jump in and suggest something quickly ? project manager: okay . right i 'm gon na have to user interface: marketing: a jog di project manager: i 'm really gon na have to hurry you on here 'cause we 're we 're actually over time . marketing: yeah project manager: um is there anything anybody 's unsure about ? marketing: . it 's kind of yeah project manager: just for in closing just the next meeting 's gon na be in thirty minutes , and so you can see in the screen here what each of you are gon na hopefully be doing , uh i know that the designers are gon na be working with play-doh on that . marketing: yeah . project manager: so um that 'll be that 'll be good . marketing: huh . project manager: um and i 'll get the the minutes up as soon as possible . anything at all you think we have n't discussed that we need to ? is everybody kind of happy about what they 're gon na be doing ? marketing: um industrial designer: um i think one thing would be the jog dial 'cause that 's gon na have quite a big impact on the thing um marketing: yeah i think the jog dial , you know it just after you drew that , what if it was flat and you just spun it , industrial designer: yeah that 's what i was thinking the marketing: that 'd be great . industrial designer: a slide , because then you you do n't have to put the hand . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think incorporating a logo is quite straight forward . marketing: yep . project manager: okay . industrial designer: there 's lots of space for it um project manager: that 's kind of a design thing that you guys can can discuss , yeah . industrial designer: yeah but it 's also a a marketing and a function user interface: marketing: sure , yeah , project manager: okay . marketing: yeah and materials we sorta said we 'd do plastic and rubber , did n't we , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: and i think maybe we should try and stay away from just the big protruding rubber buttons , 'cause that 'd just be so standard . project manager: to make something flush with the case ? marketing: something a bit more flush , yeah , project manager: okay right . marketing: or maybe have rubber incorporated into the case as well , project manager: okay . marketing: so that it has and also t plastic i 've seen can get really textured , so you can get plastics that actually feel soft in your hand . project manager: sp kinda grippy ? industrial designer: feel like fruit . project manager: okay . industrial designer: fruits kids . user interface: marketing: they feel kind of like um , you get pens now and then that you 'd think that they were rubber but they 're not , industrial designer: no like yeah yeah . marketing: they 're actually just plastic that 's textured , industrial designer: yeah yeah kinda like that yeah . marketing: kind of a little bit like project manager: okay i 'm gon na have to i 'm gon na have to call this to a close 'cause we 're way over time . so um that 's really good , like we 've s had much to talk about that um pretty much run out of time to do so . marketing: okay . project manager: so off you go and design stuff marketing: okay . project manager: wooh . marketing: industrial designer: play-doh time . project manager: yeah quite jealous actually . industrial designer: you got to choose first . no , we 're kidding . marketing: industrial designer: okay , can i just swipe your power cable , i do n't think it matters . okay lem me okay , i 'm gon na pull everybody out first and then put in whoever needs to be left . it 's you . argh . this is a real hassle and a oops . i 'm gon na take the microphones , 'cause it 's too lazy t take them off again . cool .

this meeting was about the conceptual design of the remote control . firstly , marketing presented on the market trend and suggested a remote control with a fancy look and feel , technology innovation , and spongy material . next , user interface presented on conceptual design and recommended the control itself should use an inconsistent colour scheme . then , industrial designer presented on the component design and that the cost , the complexity , and the size would have an impact on their remote design and reminded there would be a restriction on grouping plastic and rubber cases together . lastly , the group discussed remote concepts and decided to have a small size remote with the speaker , the chip on print for the power , and a rubber case .

summarize the presentation on market trends . </s> industrial designer: 's to do now is to decide how to fulfil what your stuff is , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so in that sense project manager: okay . marketing: yeah , sure . industrial designer: so it does kind of make sense , yeah . project manager: okay , well marketing: it kinda does make sense , does n't it , because when we get into the end of meeting we 're kind of talking about action and design as opposed to background . industrial designer: yep . project manager: okay . marketing: everything i have is kinda background . project manager: okay we all ready to go ? industrial designer: yep . project manager: well how um on the in this meeting then if we um i 'll just just recap on the minutes from the last meeting . and we uh decided on industrial designer: yep . project manager: decided on our our target group being fifteen to thirty five , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and we decided that it was gon na be non-rechargeable battery-powered , that we 're gon na group our audio-visual and other functions into into those categories , um . and i told you guys about the three new requirements about ignoring teletext , ignoring everything except the tv , and trying to incorporate the the uh corporate colour and slogan . um so that was the last meeting . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: is there anything have i forgotten anything ? industrial designer: no . project manager: is that everything ? marketing: uh that sounds . project manager: okay . um so if we have the three presentations , and then if you have anything to kind of that you know you 're gon na want to discuss , maybe just make a note of it , and we 'll have all the discussion at the end . that might be a better idea this time . marketing: sure . project manager: and so if we start off uh with andrew and then craig and then david , marketing: okay . project manager: if that 's alright . marketing: sure . industrial designer: yep . project manager: um and then after that we 'll have to make some decisions about stuff , right . marketing: yeah , cool . project manager: so if you wan na take this . marketing: why do n't i get that ? hmm . project manager: screwed in quite tightly . uh what did uh how did we leave it with speech recognition now ? we did we say we were gon na try maybe incorporate it but we had n't made a definite decision on that ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: right . oh i should also point out that um the you know the kind of final objective of this meeting is to reach a decision on the concepts of the product . marketing: okay . project manager: so um that 's kind of the end result hopefully . marketing: okay . um alright so c is it function f_ eight ? project manager: uh-huh . hopefully appear in a wee second . marketing: hmm . come on . i think it 's working . project manager: up there we go . marketing: okay great s so let me just start this . okay great . so um uh s move on . uh-huh oh where 'd it all go ? project manager: oh no . marketing: it 's not good . okay lem me just see where i can find it . this looks more like it . i think i just opened up the template . project manager: oh right . marketing: sorry about that . okay alright so let 's have a look here . project manager: here we go . marketing: okay so this was the method that um i 've taken . uh basically what i wan na do here , before we get into it uh too far , is i want to show you all the background information i have that i think we need to acknowledge if we want this to be successful . project manager: okay . marketing: and uh and then sorta g go through some of the way that i 've dealt with that information , and then sort of bring us all together into it to see sorta see how this fits in with the overall vision . um so i 've tried to take a whole lot of market research and summarise it for us , and then ide identify uh trends that are are sort of in sync and are important to our our uh p project plan that we have so far , and then uh initiate a kind of discussion on design options so that it sorta helps us to to narrow in on on aspects that will inform other uh other elements of the of the project . does that make sense , tha that sort of strategy ? industrial designer: yep . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: i thought that that will impact on the rest of what we do , so that 's why i suggested we get in this . project manager: aye a fair point definitely . marketing: okay so out of um different uh figures and ratings ob uh of people in general , um consumers in general , the number one thing that was found was that uh the br t television remote control , a fancy look and feel , okay , and not , it specified , not a functional look or or feel , uh b f f fancy . project manager: okay . marketing: um however , this is where we kinda have to be very , i think , creative about it . number two was that it be innovative . okay so that tells me that we have to find a way to be innovative without a adding just unnecessary um sort of functional bits to it . uh and third priority uh for ease of use , so again that kind of gives us a general picture of how it has to be , um quite user friendly while still having technology . so it i 'll just say right away as a bit of a foreshadowing into how we proceed with this in terms of m marketing , is that i think um what we should think about is how the um about how the innovation uh contributes to the look and feel , and not so much to the functionality of it . project manager: aye right . marketing: for example like when you pick it up and push it like it all lights up or something , you know what i mean , like , or it 's got something else to it that just seems innovative project manager: uh-huh . marketing: because obviously the thing that the message here is ease of use . so how do you make innovation make something more more easy to use ? well that 's i guess where we 're gon na go with this . project manager: okay . marketing: okay then there 's the other aspect of the back the the market um research i have here is on fashion style , okay , which as we 've agreed is a priority . uh top european fashion trend um that i read about says there 's this emerging theme of fruit and vegetables , okay , industrial designer: project manager: marketing: especially in clothes and furniture . and when i first saw that i thought hmm , well do we want to actually try and think about this trend and how we add something to it , or we get right into it , or we completely steer away from it , project manager: okay okay . marketing: do you know what i mean ? so my my feeling is that we w do want to observe this trend , but we want to think also about the fact that it sort of has to fit in with something which is not specifically electronics . um 'cause i think what we 're in what we 're in is partly sort of home decor , partly something like a computer , um so i think we might wan na be careful about how you know how quickly we create like a remote control in the shape of an apple or something , project manager: marketing: i think that would be pushing it . industrial designer: marketing: and then in terms of m material trends are for things to be soft and spongy and sort of , you might say ergonomic or or friendly to handle , which is which also in indicated that last year this was this was not the case . so um probably a lot of the competition on the market will be still in last year 's mode , so if we try and really capitalise on that , i think that 'll be in our favour . um so these this is the summary of everything . um style is number one uh thing in the in the market of who we 're selling to . uh innovative design technology 's also a must in that it 's seen it 'd be seen to be uh cutting edge , uh but ease of use t has to be insured throughout . that was like the number three thing . and then at the end there are vibrant natural colours um that 's the way i interpreted it anyway , softness in materials , shape , and function , and so i 've written at written at the bottom to give us sort of a context of discussion , mac ipods , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: something which is , i 'd have to say very high-tech , ten gigabytes , whatever , but when you hold it in your hand there 's like no buttons . project manager: mm that 's true , yeah . marketing: you know what a mac ipod is ? i 'm thinking however mac ipod is sort of last year 's because it 's very hard and sort of glassy and glossy , so i 'm thinking if we imagine that we 're taking some of the features of a mac ipod and we 're then making it s more of like a more of like a comfortable type of or more of like a maybe more vibrant to friendly thing to have . um and then so this is w with all that information what i 'm what i 'm suggesting in this slide here is that we we take these ideas , and as we get into more the more um techni like sort of production side of things , that we think about shape , materials , and themes or series that go throughout . sort of like a i dunno like um we think of some kind of a thin theme that unifies it all , that we agree on , uh sorta like a marketing identity . um does that make sense ? yeah . so so like i threw out a few ideas there just to kinda get us thinking along those lines like lemon , lime , i dunno , green colours , pe whatever , it 's just an idea , 'cause i 'm thinking that some of these ideas will seem quite coherent if we use them in terms of their what people associate this them with in terms of texture , shape , colours , things like that . project manager: mm 'kay . great . marketing: like um the ones the ones which i 'm most fond of in terms of giving like a theme to it would be like um like lemon or something like that , you know something which is , like you see a lot in in other areas . like i see lots of websites and things that seem to associate with like lemon and lime and project manager: okay . marketing: so anyway it 's just just an idea . project manager: yeah . marketing: i 'm thinking maybe we could incorporate some of these features into a fairly um into something which is which seems to have something to it which is almost gimmicky because like um like something to do with like lighting within it . like you know just within the simple sense , when you pick up a phone and touch a button it uh lights up , q usually the buttons light up . project manager: ah . marketing: how can we build on that ? maybe like it could light up in different colours or something or or people could buy the buy the control and then it comes with different like covers or something so . project manager: okay . marketing: anyway those are that 's all i have , project manager: that 's great . marketing: but uh hopefully we can we can revisit those ideas when we get into project manager: uh-huh . okay great . marketing: project manager: um thank you for that . uh craig do you wan na marketing: yep . project manager: uh plug yours in then ? user interface: is it working ? project manager: mm . not quite . marketing: did you press f_ eight ? industrial designer: it 's probably not sending . yeah . project manager: oh something coming now , yeah . marketing: industrial designer: yep , there it is . project manager: there we go . user interface: and so think of this concept . um to research it i 've um had a look on the the homepage again . it 's provided me with more examples of um previously existing c remote controls . um there 's a wee bit of discussion about the other existing ones there , um so i 've taken the um suggestions from them and tried to incorporate them into this um so then this we 're looking for um suggestions on size th um size of control and the buttons , um the shape of the control , and whereabout the buttons should be located on the control . project manager: mm . user interface: um what i found from the research is that most the current controls are just basically big bricks with loads of buttons all over them . um they 're not very attractive to look at , and they 're not very comfortable to hold , they 're i just hold 'em like big bricks , and they 're very easily lost . um they tend to be very dark colours , so if there are shadowy places down the side of couches you ca n't really see them . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um the the controls themselves tend to use a very inconsistent colour scheme . um for instance , the stand-by button is n't always red , uh it really should be . it 's uh something the user then uh identify with . this is a red switch off , that 's how it should be . um i 'm not sure if there 's any other examples of that , but something to look out for . um there 's a problem that i 've i 've got couple of preferences for the the end control um i get 'em with the the red colour button for stand-by and s the other examples of that um the buttons should be large . they should n't be tiny little things like you get on some mobile phones . they should be easy to press , very comfortable . um one of the examples given on the homepage was um there 's an up and down volume button but both of them have a v_ on them , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so the up volume button looks like it should be a down volume button , that 's kinda confusing . um should avoid s things like that . um if the the corporate colour scheme allows it we should have a very bright colour so that it can be easily identified anywhere . project manager: okay . user interface: um obviously trying trying to avoid being tacky there , but it could um tie-in very easily with your your lime and lemon idea . marketing: yeah . okay , do we have a corporate colour scheme ? project manager: i think it 's yellow marketing: i did n't know . project manager: because like the website is yellow and there 's a band at the bottom is yellow , marketing: okay . industrial designer: and the play-doh 's yellow . project manager: so yellow , lemon , you know definitely food for thought there , marketing: okay . user interface: fantastic . project manager: but keep going marketing: okay . project manager: and we 'll discuss it after . user interface: um marketing: yeah . user interface: any extra features we add beyond the basic ones should be m hidden , they should n't be on the um should n't be visible without something be opened or some sort of special extra effort . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um if we did decide to go for voice activation there sh should always be a button as alternative , possibly hidden in the the opened up section um making that something is wrong with it or with somebody 's voice , maybe they got a cold or um we should definitely avoid the big square block look . that 's just wrong . project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and um we got an email uh from i think it 's the the research department , and they 've said th the voice control um can now talk back if you ask it a question . project manager: mm . user interface: so it sh it could be good to have them um confirm any action you take project manager: aye that 's a good idea , yeah . user interface: and possibility . right and these are problems i 've had with it . um i do n't know where the slogan should go , or really what the slogan is . i think it 's um , fashion into electronics . project manager: yeah . user interface: and we do n't know how flexible the colour scheme is . i mean you say you wanted the the corporate colours , but they do n't say you know if we can use any other colours at all or marketing: mm . project manager: okay . marketing: mm . industrial designer: cool . user interface: that 's it . project manager: okay . marketing: great . lots of good information there . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah that that was very good , industrial designer: mm 'kay um . project manager: and uh now with david . marketing: user interface: i think i 'm cool . marketing: it 's a shame the cable was n't just in the middle of the table , project manager: i know it 'd be handy , would n't it . user interface: marketing: huh ? just um industrial designer: oops . project manager: do y do you wan na sit in the the line of sight of this um industrial designer: yeah okay . let me just get this going first . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: ah there it is . project manager: marketing: it takes a second , does n't it ? industrial designer: 'kay , that should be it . okay um i guess the same thing again , i started with something very basic . marketing: industrial designer: so just so you guys have some idea of what 's involved in my process , um and then you can just work through it marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and we 'll either modify it or start from scratch um depending on what your needs are . um the components are exactly the same . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um i think , like what you guys said , um the most input that 's needed is basically in the user interface . the rest of the components um they do have an impact in terms of cost and complexity . um like you said time to market was a problem , um and how many components are physically in there in cost . and the power is basically a factor of that . um and the lower components , the power , the logic , the transmitter , and the infrared , um they affect you in terms of the size of your device , um and that would have some inte impact on how y i think more how you hold rather than um the actual use using the the remote control because um like we 've said we 've defined , like we only want the basic things that to be visible , and the rest of them we try to hide . so um you know it 's just a matter of working out space . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so i guess three things , um cost , um complexity , and the size . these are the three things that um will have an impact on you . so just go through it in the components . um these are the options that are available to you , um i 'm not very sure about the voice thing 'cause i got another email and it was in fact quite sketchy on what n the voice options are . user interface: right . industrial designer: um it said it could talk to you , but it never said anything about being able to listen . i it said something about a sensor but never clarified that . marketing: mm . industrial designer: so maybe if you project manager: hmm . industrial designer: well i could see the other email that they sent you , um 'cause they got back to me with like different requirements , or different offerings of what components availa okay so your basic components are buttons , user interface: right . industrial designer: okay and you have a wheel available , like a mouse scroll wheel , project manager: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: okay there 's an lcd display , marketing: industrial designer: um i think these are quite standard things . marketing: they 're standard , are n't they ? industrial designer: no um they 're well in the sense that these are all the options available for you . i 'll explain to you the complexity and the cost thing again a bit later . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: okay um then there 's um how the case actually looks . it can actually be flat or it can be curved , um and then the different types of materials that you can use , um i do n't think you can use them in a combination , um but um project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i could check back for you , but i do n't think you can actually use them in a combination . project manager: we you could n't have like plastic and rubber ? industrial designer: um i think plastic and rubber would be fine , but plastic , rubber , and wood , i was n't i 'm not very sure about the titanium . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: they had some restrictions on using the rubber and the titanium . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: um the rubber was a restriction on the kind of power source you could use , project manager: mm 'kay . industrial designer: but the titanium had a different kind of things on the shape of the thing , project manager: okay . industrial designer: so i think that there is some restriction on um i think you could probably group plastic and rubber together , wood and titanium , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but you know it might be easier from a cost perspective and a complexity just to use one . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: you know as opposed to two . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and the other components are logic chips , um again i 'll i 'll go back to the component chips . the com how complex or how easy the logic is , it depends on how many functions you have on the on the unit um and that impacts cost . um i do n't think the logic chip has a issue about size 'cause they should be about the same size . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: power consumption should be about the same . um i think the main impact is complexity , marketing: hmm . industrial designer: um and the other thing is um the power options . um the first one is a standard battery . okay the second one i think is more of a gimmick then actually a useable thing , it 's a wind-up you know , a crank . project manager: i 'll clear one of these things for you . just by moving it yeah . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: yeah but that that might be something i think that 's more of a look and feel decision because i do n't think you can have one power source if you 're using the alternative power sources . i think whatever it is you still need a battery 'cause i do n't think anybody wants to keep doing one thing . project manager: mm . user interface: marketing: no . industrial designer: okay the other ones are a solar powered cell , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: which may not be a great idea in europe or any country that has seasons 'cause half the year you 'd be dead . user interface: industrial designer: so like what i said , you probably need like a battery and something else . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and the kinetic one i guess for me is the most interesting one project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: because it 's movement and people like to fiddle with their and it 's a nice sales gimmick i think . project manager: mm . industrial designer: from a marketing gimmick it it 's a technology thing , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it 's a shake it it does n't work , shake it , knock it or something . you know project manager: w yeah . industrial designer: you know marketing: hmm . industrial designer: you have you had those balls , you know those stress balls where you bounce the ball and it and it lights up and it goes , project manager: uh yeah yeah , i see . marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: industrial designer: you know that might be a gimmick combined with rubber . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: you know just to if you get frustrated wi remote control you can throw it , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: kind of you know just uh you know um so . um okay user interface: project manager: i know what you mean yeah . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: my from my role , i do n't think that personal preferences but role preferences , i think um something comfortable to hold , um small and slim marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i guess that 's more in the sense of small and slim in terms of comfortable not so small you ca n't , you know like a phone or something , too small phone . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and the other thing is from a production point of view um the less components we use and the simpler the components means you reduce your cost and you increase your profit . um and also the time to market and the complexity of developing designing and debugging it um so . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm mm-hmm mm-hmm . industrial designer: um okay let me just go back and talk about some of the restrictions . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um the user interface restrictions basically means that if you use more complicated features , like the buttons are standard okay , the lcd panel and the scroll wheel you need more complicated logic . um the case okay with a rubber case you ca n't have the solar panels . project manager: mm . industrial designer: okay with the titanium case , let me just check that um , marketing: industrial designer: titanium case ca n't be curved , it has to be square . project manager: okay . industrial designer: okay um there 's no restriction on the plastic , and marketing: it ca n't be curved . industrial designer: it ca n't be curved on the wood . marketing: okay . industrial designer: so that 's again , i do n't think you can use them in a combination , um especially the titanium project manager: okay . industrial designer: i i suspect they 're very fixed to a particular need . project manager: right . industrial designer: so um mixing them may not be a good idea um yep . that 's it . project manager: okay . right can i marketing: uh question on can i ask a question ? project manager: yeah well yeah it 's just i 'm quite keen to get the discussion going with the time we 've left so but yeah you c ask away . marketing: okay . can we uh power a light in this ? can we get a strong enough battery to power a light ? industrial designer: um i think we could because the lcd panel requires power , and the lcd is a form of a light project manager: mm . marketing: okay . industrial designer: so that marketing: so maybe one of the things we can just try and include is a really good battery . project manager: why what kind of light do you want are you thinking of ? marketing: well i mean i 'm thinking it might be that for uh this to be a high-tech thing it 's gon na have to have something high-tech about it project manager: uh-huh . yeah . marketing: and that 's gon na take battery power , and to make that to make that a realistic goal i think one of the issues that will come up later is , can the battery power it ? industrial designer: are you thinking are you thinking of of a light in the sense of um a light light , or a light in the sense of it glows kind of you know frankenstein , it 's alive . marketing: illuminate the buttons . yeah it glows . well m i 'm thinking along the lines of you 're you 're in the dark watching a d_v_d_ and you um you find the thing in the dark and you go like this , industrial designer: okay . marketing: and that 's what everybody does . oh where 's the volume button in the dark , industrial designer: okay . project manager: yeah yeah yeah . marketing: and uh y you just touch it , or you just pick it up , and it lights up or something . project manager: like a phone yeah , like the backlight in a phone . industrial designer: okay . marketing: like a phone , yeah yeah . project manager: okay cool . marketing: whereas with phones , people charge them once a week . project manager: yeah . marketing: we 're gon na need to put in a really good battery so people do n't have to charge their r remote control every few days . industrial designer: um that 's why i think the option of the the kinetic thing which basically means as long as you shake it like a watch , like an automatic watch project manager: mm . marketing: but are people gon na wan na shake their movie controller ? industrial designer: um it 's probably sensitive enough when you fiddle it . marketing: right . industrial designer: so you could trigger that to a light , project manager: mm . marketing: sure . industrial designer: like i said the bouncing ball thing , or you could trigger that to use that to power the light project manager: okay . industrial designer: as opposed to marketing: okay . industrial designer: so when they pick it up , right , and then that that sorta triggers the marketing: right . project manager: okay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: right industrial designer: glowingness . project manager: okay um well marketing: okay , great . project manager: let 's just go right back to the marketing ideas for a start , and just giving an id idea on the time , we 've got about fifteen minutes to play with at most . so um yeah so just t to bear in mind that the ultimate goal of this meeting is to reach an decision on the the the concepts of the product . marketing: okay . okay . project manager: so back to your idea about um incorporating the idea of like fruit and veg , and the corporate colour , and things like that . marketing: yeah . project manager: um i mean what does everybody think about marketing: yeah . project manager: does anybody have any ideas of about how we can fit all that in together ? i mean that 's kind of the user interface type of thing , what are your thoughts on that ? user interface: um i think we could go for like um maybe not a p a fruit shape but a very sort of curvy type shape . um you could have the same sort of texture and colour as a fruit . project manager: so maybe do y are we thinking something that like s could sit in your hand comfortably , or do you th you 'd hold onto comfortably or user interface: um probably something that s sits in your hand comfortably , sort of feels right in your hand . project manager: so something quite curvy ? okay um right okay . colour-wise i mean you made a re uh was it you or uh i ca n't remember who made the point about how if you 've a nice bright colour you 'll not lose it , was that industrial designer: i think he made that . project manager: whose user interface: marketing: what 's that ? project manager: about how if you have a bright colour you 'll not lose it so much . marketing: yeah . project manager: um and when the corporate colour is yellow , i mean maybe we could think about about the colour of the whole product being yellow i do n't know . um marketing: okay . project manager: and then obviously the uh the materials when it has anybody got like an overall picture in their mind about what what might work ? that 's all . marketing: well i mean i 'm thinking that what we need to do is have something that kind of unifies a lot of the different concepts , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and if we think that what we are w our number one marketing motive is um the look and feel . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so for the look and feel to seem coherent and not just sorta bits and bits and pieces of of concept and technology or or whatever or fashion , then we should have it kind of come back to one thing that we kind of all sorta can visualize . um maybe what we could do is t th think about a concept which touches b back to the on the um the colour , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: you said company colour yellow . i mean if we think of something , like i was saying also lime and lemon you know , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: what can we come up with something where we we try and associate it with with like the series . we just come up with something like that we kind of use it as a theme to inspire the project manager: okay . marketing: shapes and things . project manager: right . industrial designer: is there a particular shape that you 're interested in ? like does marketing have any research on does it need to be long ? marketing: industrial designer: does it need with a square thing wha project manager: oh you know like in circular in shape or industrial designer: yeah 'cause that will n help narrow down the choice of marketing: yeah . project manager: choice of material yeah . industrial designer: like fruit . i 'm thinking fruits in my head , but that 's tacky . project manager: 'cause i i i was kinda thinking about as well you know how you get these shock resistant mobile phones , user interface: see i 'm project manager: and they 're plastic but then also have like rubber on the outside , and it kinda feels it feels kind of warmer to the touch . it feels a bit more comfortable , and maybe we could incorporate plastic and rubber into it . and then then we could have curved shapes , 'cause wood or titanium , yeah , it 's gon na have to be boxy and rectangular and i think we might be moving away from that you know so um well i 'm do we really want it in like the shape of a lemon or marketing: no no no not at all . project manager: no i do n't think we do either . marketing: it 's more more just that we we think about like what it is we 're trying to achieve , so and then we have one one sorta theme that we stick with . project manager: okay right well um marketing: do you know what i mean ? project manager: so thoughts about the actual shape of the thing . user interface: i 'd quite like a sort of uh snowman type shape . project manager: a snowman shape ? user interface: um so a p sort of larger bit sits in your hand , and then you got maybe another bubble at the top for just any other function you need . project manager: uh-huh . that 's quite a distinctive shape , marketing: right , project manager: that would be good marketing: sure . project manager: would n't it . yeah marketing: yeah . project manager: so yeah should we go with that ? marketing: um can we yeah like to and wha like do you have a project manager: do you wan na draw it on the board ? user interface: marketing: can you like yeah just t we can visualize it . user interface: um something like that um you got two groups there um maybe it could fold up and you get a third group inside project manager: ooh that 'd be good . user interface: or uh you have volume controls about there . marketing: okay . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . yep . project manager: so call it the snowman-shape trademark . yeah that 's cool . um and i mean colour-wise what does everybody think ? i think it is quite important to get yellow in there somewhere . i mean do you want the whole thing yellow , maybe like yellow and white do you want something marketing: mm . user interface: so i reckon it 'd look quite nice if we just had um this here , had a sorta background yellow , marketing: project manager: uh-huh . user interface: and then have sort of a nice bold colour for the buttons . project manager: okay cool . um and also i mean how are we going to incorporate the slogan in ? the fact that it talks to you , i mean it might be quite cool if when you first start using it it says , what is it , putting fashion into electronics or something , i dunno . or when you like or if you turn it off or something if it can speak if it could actually say the slogan it might be a bit more powerful than just having it written on it somewhere . user interface: i think that might scare me . project manager: i d i d any thoughts on that at all ? user interface: i think that 'd probably scare me . you turn it on your control possessed s . project manager: i know . um unless an a i mean if you also would that work if we wanted to incorporate um an lcd display , where would we put that ? would we put that on the inside or industrial designer: do we need an lcd display ? user interface: um industrial designer: what what 's the functionality of that ? project manager: it 's bound to increase the cost of it a lot , i would 've thought . industrial designer: yeah but the question is what are we using it marketing: what would it achieve ? industrial designer: what would we what would we achieve from it ? putting in lights is cheap but putting in an lcd panel just to make it glow is a bit of a marketing: well l_c_ well i 'd when you used to mention the lcd i 'd think i wonder what that would be about . and the th the thing i could see it helping with would be if it was somehow connected with um listings . project manager: yeah . marketing: so as you scroll through , 'cause we said we might have a jog dial , so as you scroll through your stations you can y it actually tells you what it is . industrial designer: mm-hmm . i think that will be a problem because we do n't have an input device to get the listings into it , marketing: right , okay . industrial designer: so um it 's a bit nuts to get the monday tuesday wednesday you know . project manager: mm oh yeah that 's true . yeah . so so no need for an lcd display ? marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: um i i 'm not saying there 's no need for an lcd display , but um it 's what 's what what would it tell the user , project manager: i think that would make it very complex . industrial designer: 'cause the lcd tends to be an output as uh as opposed to an input so um does the remote control need to talk back to the user ? project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: mm not real industrial designer: we have the option of the speaker as well the sa the same thing goes for the speaker , is there a need for the remote control to to talk back ? marketing: project manager: i do n't know if there is really , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: nah . project manager: no um industrial designer: um project manager: i would say no need for a talk-back . uh does anybody disagree with that ? industrial designer: you could put a game on it . project manager: no ? marketing: no . user interface: marketing: project manager: easy . industrial designer: when the tv dies you can play with the remote control . project manager: okay um right marketing: mm mm . project manager: so you 're gon na have the three different sets of of functionalities , um i mean do you wan na group them into s head of the snowman , body of the snowman , inside of the snowman , is that what you 're thinking ? user interface: um well i think the advanced ones the the ones you do n't usually use could be hid inside . project manager: okay . user interface: b um i think the we had were fairly basic ones , they 'd have to go on the the front somewhere . project manager: okay right um what else do you need to talk about ? marketing: well i i was just industrial designer: where would you physically position the buttons ? um i think that that has some impact on on on many things . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um maybe you wan na draw onto the user interface: um marketing: yeah . project manager: so i 'm just gon na um pop this in here 'cause i have a slide about decision making which i 'd forgotten about . industrial designer: yep . project manager: oh sh god we 've got five minutes um okay uh back we go . um energy what do you think that 's suggesting we 're how we 're powering the thing ? i really like the idea of this kinetic thing where you 'd have the back-up of the battery , but have have kinetic power , marketing: yeah , sure . project manager: i mean what does anybody think about that ? marketing: um i 've had kinetic things before , and the the the one issue we need to keep in mind with them is that you 're committing the user to moving it , industrial designer: no , like i said we have a h hybrid kind of thing , so it 's not gon na charge the battery , it 's just marketing: and watches yeah sure , okay , right , okay . project manager: okay . marketing: support for it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i mean just it 's just worth pointing out because like i 've i 've known i 've known people to have kinetic watches that they wear all the time , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and it 's just like magic because it 's always powered and there 's no battery . i 've also known people to have things like like a jewellery watch they wear from time to time , and they eventually just say it 's just too much of a nuisance because i do n't wear it all the time . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yep . marketing: like remote control is similar , you 're away on vacation , i dunno whatever , you something , and it just starts to get worn down . project manager: yeah . well i suppose that if you 're if you 're away and you 're not using it , then you 're not using any power either . marketing: so we should think about project manager: so you 'd have the battery as the kind of to keep it ticking over idea marketing: yeah . project manager: i 'm really sorry we 're gon na have to wrap up quite quickly , we do n't have as much time as i thought . um so i think that 's what energy is referring to here . marketing: yep . project manager: chip on print , is that that 's an industrial design thing , is it david ? industrial designer: yes yes . project manager: okay um as for the case , kind of discussed that marketing: and this size here , i 'd suggest this be small , like quite small . project manager: yeah i know we 're gon na have like rubber buttons that feel kind of okay . user interface: yeah i think so yeah . marketing: um just a a lot of the um i mean one of the things running through my mind right now , i realise we 're being efficient to wrap up the meeting and have lots of decisions made , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um but we are leaning quite a bit to the side of being low-tech , rubber buttons plastic frame , it 's almost like we 're reproducing the same old remote control that 's out there . project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: should we think about how we are actually getting this high-tech user friendly uh um theme like what is it that we 're u we 're using to to achieve those goals ? project manager: could have things like backlighting the buttons and stuff like that . marketing: like okay so so backlighting , that would be good . industrial designer: or even a clear case . um you know a a glowing a a glowing yellow type case where the yellow is showable , marketing: yeah clear , project manager: aye that would be a good idea . marketing: okay . industrial designer: but in the dark it sort of , it 's alive . user interface: marketing: yeah sure . industrial designer: um in in a slight subtle way . project manager: s so like cur slightly transparent case , so it 's yellow , like tinted yellow , but you can maybe see through it . marketing: yeah that 'd be really good . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . or or there might be a light running through it like a mouse . project manager: is that what you mean ? industrial designer: you know you have cordless mice and they do n't eat that much power right . marketing: sure . industrial designer: so the power the battery in that sense , marketing: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: maybe you have one or two stratig strategically placed lights marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that sort of marketing: sure . yeah they they emanate a light through it . industrial designer: yeah project manager: okay . industrial designer: but because the case is transparent so it gives it a little bit of a glow , does n't make it freaky . project manager: lights . marketing: 'kay . yeah , project manager: okay . marketing: mm-hmm . um and then the other thing that we we 're s we 've committed ourselves to achieving is simplicity , and so i 'm thinking maybe should we try and think about having something like um some kind of an innovative concept about how the um the volume and the channels are controlled , 'cause that 's the main thing people will f wan na do . project manager: mm . marketing: could we use like a jog dial , like a nice just sort of round , somewhere on it where you just roll it ? industrial designer: the question is when you 're rolling it , how do you wan na roll it ? marketing: or industrial designer: do you want 'em to roll it like that ? do you want 'em to roll it like that ? 'cause in a mouse your hand 's in a position to roll it , project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: whereas the other thing about having it jog dial this way , it tends to get moved accidentally . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah if you are holding it in your hand you could you could do that , could n't you ? marketing: well why do n't we do it like a mouse then ? project manager: if you 're holding it in your hand you could industrial designer: that 's a very unnatural motion to project manager: do you think ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: can you imagine you have to scroll a lot . um it might work for volume , and maybe some of the brightness controls and stuff like that , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but not for channels right . project manager: mm . industrial designer: if you have a telewest box you 've got like , you do n't have to buy all the channels , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: you 've about fifty channels , can you imagine trying to . project manager: yeah marketing: yeah . project manager: okay okay industrial designer: um and i do n't think having that you know too quick too slow kin it 's confusing to the marketing: yeah , sure . project manager: um user interface: well , but then for um for skipping a large amount of channels you do have to uh to skip the channel button , the number part . marketing: mm . industrial designer: i dunno . but users tend to tend to want to use that project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and once they lose out on the user experience they 're like because that 's becomes the most accessible thing in front of project manager: okay . user interface: uh but project manager: okay . marketing: but that 's not a bad thing is it ? project manager: just marketing: because when you think about it , the alternative is to go push the button . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: jog dials are much easier than that . project manager: okay um right well would n't it marketing: you just roll . project manager: we do need to make a decision on whether we want to incorporate a jog dial in nice and quickly . um i 'm all for them actually , i think they 're quite you know th very quick to m to use . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: so does anybody oppose the idea of of incorporating one into the design at all ? no . and the other thing was um can we think of any way of getting the slogan into this thing ? marketing: yeah like i mean if we if if we keep coming back to this board here , project manager: uh-huh . marketing: i would n't be surprised if we could take this idea , imagine that , i dunno , that it 's within the shape of the hand , it 's quite small project manager: uh-huh ooh okay , we really got ta wrap up marketing: i dunno . project manager: so yeah . marketing: yeah . it 's small , and that we 've got like the the l slogan somewhere like on the casing at the side , project manager: okay well if we can do that , great . marketing: and that yeah project manager: yeah okay . marketing: well i mean is n't that what we just h said said we s just have to decide now ? project manager: yeah let 's let 's try and get the slogan on there um , and marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so you wan na expand the shape of the marketing: and then like a jo and then like a jog dial somewhere that fits in with the shape of it like i dunno like here , in with the industrial designer: that that might have one problem in terms of um in terms of whether you 're left handed or you 're right handed you might be locking yourself in . marketing: it would get bumped , it 's does n't really fit with your hand . project manager: mm . marketing: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: or maybe just fit it in like down the middle here . industrial designer: could i just could i just jump in and suggest something quickly ? project manager: okay . right i 'm gon na have to user interface: marketing: a jog di project manager: i 'm really gon na have to hurry you on here 'cause we 're we 're actually over time . marketing: yeah project manager: um is there anything anybody 's unsure about ? marketing: . it 's kind of yeah project manager: just for in closing just the next meeting 's gon na be in thirty minutes , and so you can see in the screen here what each of you are gon na hopefully be doing , uh i know that the designers are gon na be working with play-doh on that . marketing: yeah . project manager: so um that 'll be that 'll be good . marketing: huh . project manager: um and i 'll get the the minutes up as soon as possible . anything at all you think we have n't discussed that we need to ? is everybody kind of happy about what they 're gon na be doing ? marketing: um industrial designer: um i think one thing would be the jog dial 'cause that 's gon na have quite a big impact on the thing um marketing: yeah i think the jog dial , you know it just after you drew that , what if it was flat and you just spun it , industrial designer: yeah that 's what i was thinking the marketing: that 'd be great . industrial designer: a slide , because then you you do n't have to put the hand . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think incorporating a logo is quite straight forward . marketing: yep . project manager: okay . industrial designer: there 's lots of space for it um project manager: that 's kind of a design thing that you guys can can discuss , yeah . industrial designer: yeah but it 's also a a marketing and a function user interface: marketing: sure , yeah , project manager: okay . marketing: yeah and materials we sorta said we 'd do plastic and rubber , did n't we , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: and i think maybe we should try and stay away from just the big protruding rubber buttons , 'cause that 'd just be so standard . project manager: to make something flush with the case ? marketing: something a bit more flush , yeah , project manager: okay right . marketing: or maybe have rubber incorporated into the case as well , project manager: okay . marketing: so that it has and also t plastic i 've seen can get really textured , so you can get plastics that actually feel soft in your hand . project manager: sp kinda grippy ? industrial designer: feel like fruit . project manager: okay . industrial designer: fruits kids . user interface: marketing: they feel kind of like um , you get pens now and then that you 'd think that they were rubber but they 're not , industrial designer: no like yeah yeah . marketing: they 're actually just plastic that 's textured , industrial designer: yeah yeah kinda like that yeah . marketing: kind of a little bit like project manager: okay i 'm gon na have to i 'm gon na have to call this to a close 'cause we 're way over time . so um that 's really good , like we 've s had much to talk about that um pretty much run out of time to do so . marketing: okay . project manager: so off you go and design stuff marketing: okay . project manager: wooh . marketing: industrial designer: play-doh time . project manager: yeah quite jealous actually . industrial designer: you got to choose first . no , we 're kidding . marketing: industrial designer: okay , can i just swipe your power cable , i do n't think it matters . okay lem me okay , i 'm gon na pull everybody out first and then put in whoever needs to be left . it 's you . argh . this is a real hassle and a oops . i 'm gon na take the microphones , 'cause it 's too lazy t take them off again . cool .

marketing presented on market trends and suggested strategies including innovation in a fancy look and feel of the remote control , the european fashion theme in fruit and vegetable shapes as well as a soft and spongy material trend .

what did marketing think of technology innovation when presenting the market trend ? </s> industrial designer: 's to do now is to decide how to fulfil what your stuff is , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so in that sense project manager: okay . marketing: yeah , sure . industrial designer: so it does kind of make sense , yeah . project manager: okay , well marketing: it kinda does make sense , does n't it , because when we get into the end of meeting we 're kind of talking about action and design as opposed to background . industrial designer: yep . project manager: okay . marketing: everything i have is kinda background . project manager: okay we all ready to go ? industrial designer: yep . project manager: well how um on the in this meeting then if we um i 'll just just recap on the minutes from the last meeting . and we uh decided on industrial designer: yep . project manager: decided on our our target group being fifteen to thirty five , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and we decided that it was gon na be non-rechargeable battery-powered , that we 're gon na group our audio-visual and other functions into into those categories , um . and i told you guys about the three new requirements about ignoring teletext , ignoring everything except the tv , and trying to incorporate the the uh corporate colour and slogan . um so that was the last meeting . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: is there anything have i forgotten anything ? industrial designer: no . project manager: is that everything ? marketing: uh that sounds . project manager: okay . um so if we have the three presentations , and then if you have anything to kind of that you know you 're gon na want to discuss , maybe just make a note of it , and we 'll have all the discussion at the end . that might be a better idea this time . marketing: sure . project manager: and so if we start off uh with andrew and then craig and then david , marketing: okay . project manager: if that 's alright . marketing: sure . industrial designer: yep . project manager: um and then after that we 'll have to make some decisions about stuff , right . marketing: yeah , cool . project manager: so if you wan na take this . marketing: why do n't i get that ? hmm . project manager: screwed in quite tightly . uh what did uh how did we leave it with speech recognition now ? we did we say we were gon na try maybe incorporate it but we had n't made a definite decision on that ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: right . oh i should also point out that um the you know the kind of final objective of this meeting is to reach a decision on the concepts of the product . marketing: okay . project manager: so um that 's kind of the end result hopefully . marketing: okay . um alright so c is it function f_ eight ? project manager: uh-huh . hopefully appear in a wee second . marketing: hmm . come on . i think it 's working . project manager: up there we go . marketing: okay great s so let me just start this . okay great . so um uh s move on . uh-huh oh where 'd it all go ? project manager: oh no . marketing: it 's not good . okay lem me just see where i can find it . this looks more like it . i think i just opened up the template . project manager: oh right . marketing: sorry about that . okay alright so let 's have a look here . project manager: here we go . marketing: okay so this was the method that um i 've taken . uh basically what i wan na do here , before we get into it uh too far , is i want to show you all the background information i have that i think we need to acknowledge if we want this to be successful . project manager: okay . marketing: and uh and then sorta g go through some of the way that i 've dealt with that information , and then sort of bring us all together into it to see sorta see how this fits in with the overall vision . um so i 've tried to take a whole lot of market research and summarise it for us , and then ide identify uh trends that are are sort of in sync and are important to our our uh p project plan that we have so far , and then uh initiate a kind of discussion on design options so that it sorta helps us to to narrow in on on aspects that will inform other uh other elements of the of the project . does that make sense , tha that sort of strategy ? industrial designer: yep . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: i thought that that will impact on the rest of what we do , so that 's why i suggested we get in this . project manager: aye a fair point definitely . marketing: okay so out of um different uh figures and ratings ob uh of people in general , um consumers in general , the number one thing that was found was that uh the br t television remote control , a fancy look and feel , okay , and not , it specified , not a functional look or or feel , uh b f f fancy . project manager: okay . marketing: um however , this is where we kinda have to be very , i think , creative about it . number two was that it be innovative . okay so that tells me that we have to find a way to be innovative without a adding just unnecessary um sort of functional bits to it . uh and third priority uh for ease of use , so again that kind of gives us a general picture of how it has to be , um quite user friendly while still having technology . so it i 'll just say right away as a bit of a foreshadowing into how we proceed with this in terms of m marketing , is that i think um what we should think about is how the um about how the innovation uh contributes to the look and feel , and not so much to the functionality of it . project manager: aye right . marketing: for example like when you pick it up and push it like it all lights up or something , you know what i mean , like , or it 's got something else to it that just seems innovative project manager: uh-huh . marketing: because obviously the thing that the message here is ease of use . so how do you make innovation make something more more easy to use ? well that 's i guess where we 're gon na go with this . project manager: okay . marketing: okay then there 's the other aspect of the back the the market um research i have here is on fashion style , okay , which as we 've agreed is a priority . uh top european fashion trend um that i read about says there 's this emerging theme of fruit and vegetables , okay , industrial designer: project manager: marketing: especially in clothes and furniture . and when i first saw that i thought hmm , well do we want to actually try and think about this trend and how we add something to it , or we get right into it , or we completely steer away from it , project manager: okay okay . marketing: do you know what i mean ? so my my feeling is that we w do want to observe this trend , but we want to think also about the fact that it sort of has to fit in with something which is not specifically electronics . um 'cause i think what we 're in what we 're in is partly sort of home decor , partly something like a computer , um so i think we might wan na be careful about how you know how quickly we create like a remote control in the shape of an apple or something , project manager: marketing: i think that would be pushing it . industrial designer: marketing: and then in terms of m material trends are for things to be soft and spongy and sort of , you might say ergonomic or or friendly to handle , which is which also in indicated that last year this was this was not the case . so um probably a lot of the competition on the market will be still in last year 's mode , so if we try and really capitalise on that , i think that 'll be in our favour . um so these this is the summary of everything . um style is number one uh thing in the in the market of who we 're selling to . uh innovative design technology 's also a must in that it 's seen it 'd be seen to be uh cutting edge , uh but ease of use t has to be insured throughout . that was like the number three thing . and then at the end there are vibrant natural colours um that 's the way i interpreted it anyway , softness in materials , shape , and function , and so i 've written at written at the bottom to give us sort of a context of discussion , mac ipods , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: something which is , i 'd have to say very high-tech , ten gigabytes , whatever , but when you hold it in your hand there 's like no buttons . project manager: mm that 's true , yeah . marketing: you know what a mac ipod is ? i 'm thinking however mac ipod is sort of last year 's because it 's very hard and sort of glassy and glossy , so i 'm thinking if we imagine that we 're taking some of the features of a mac ipod and we 're then making it s more of like a more of like a comfortable type of or more of like a maybe more vibrant to friendly thing to have . um and then so this is w with all that information what i 'm what i 'm suggesting in this slide here is that we we take these ideas , and as we get into more the more um techni like sort of production side of things , that we think about shape , materials , and themes or series that go throughout . sort of like a i dunno like um we think of some kind of a thin theme that unifies it all , that we agree on , uh sorta like a marketing identity . um does that make sense ? yeah . so so like i threw out a few ideas there just to kinda get us thinking along those lines like lemon , lime , i dunno , green colours , pe whatever , it 's just an idea , 'cause i 'm thinking that some of these ideas will seem quite coherent if we use them in terms of their what people associate this them with in terms of texture , shape , colours , things like that . project manager: mm 'kay . great . marketing: like um the ones the ones which i 'm most fond of in terms of giving like a theme to it would be like um like lemon or something like that , you know something which is , like you see a lot in in other areas . like i see lots of websites and things that seem to associate with like lemon and lime and project manager: okay . marketing: so anyway it 's just just an idea . project manager: yeah . marketing: i 'm thinking maybe we could incorporate some of these features into a fairly um into something which is which seems to have something to it which is almost gimmicky because like um like something to do with like lighting within it . like you know just within the simple sense , when you pick up a phone and touch a button it uh lights up , q usually the buttons light up . project manager: ah . marketing: how can we build on that ? maybe like it could light up in different colours or something or or people could buy the buy the control and then it comes with different like covers or something so . project manager: okay . marketing: anyway those are that 's all i have , project manager: that 's great . marketing: but uh hopefully we can we can revisit those ideas when we get into project manager: uh-huh . okay great . marketing: project manager: um thank you for that . uh craig do you wan na marketing: yep . project manager: uh plug yours in then ? user interface: is it working ? project manager: mm . not quite . marketing: did you press f_ eight ? industrial designer: it 's probably not sending . yeah . project manager: oh something coming now , yeah . marketing: industrial designer: yep , there it is . project manager: there we go . user interface: and so think of this concept . um to research it i 've um had a look on the the homepage again . it 's provided me with more examples of um previously existing c remote controls . um there 's a wee bit of discussion about the other existing ones there , um so i 've taken the um suggestions from them and tried to incorporate them into this um so then this we 're looking for um suggestions on size th um size of control and the buttons , um the shape of the control , and whereabout the buttons should be located on the control . project manager: mm . user interface: um what i found from the research is that most the current controls are just basically big bricks with loads of buttons all over them . um they 're not very attractive to look at , and they 're not very comfortable to hold , they 're i just hold 'em like big bricks , and they 're very easily lost . um they tend to be very dark colours , so if there are shadowy places down the side of couches you ca n't really see them . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um the the controls themselves tend to use a very inconsistent colour scheme . um for instance , the stand-by button is n't always red , uh it really should be . it 's uh something the user then uh identify with . this is a red switch off , that 's how it should be . um i 'm not sure if there 's any other examples of that , but something to look out for . um there 's a problem that i 've i 've got couple of preferences for the the end control um i get 'em with the the red colour button for stand-by and s the other examples of that um the buttons should be large . they should n't be tiny little things like you get on some mobile phones . they should be easy to press , very comfortable . um one of the examples given on the homepage was um there 's an up and down volume button but both of them have a v_ on them , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so the up volume button looks like it should be a down volume button , that 's kinda confusing . um should avoid s things like that . um if the the corporate colour scheme allows it we should have a very bright colour so that it can be easily identified anywhere . project manager: okay . user interface: um obviously trying trying to avoid being tacky there , but it could um tie-in very easily with your your lime and lemon idea . marketing: yeah . okay , do we have a corporate colour scheme ? project manager: i think it 's yellow marketing: i did n't know . project manager: because like the website is yellow and there 's a band at the bottom is yellow , marketing: okay . industrial designer: and the play-doh 's yellow . project manager: so yellow , lemon , you know definitely food for thought there , marketing: okay . user interface: fantastic . project manager: but keep going marketing: okay . project manager: and we 'll discuss it after . user interface: um marketing: yeah . user interface: any extra features we add beyond the basic ones should be m hidden , they should n't be on the um should n't be visible without something be opened or some sort of special extra effort . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um if we did decide to go for voice activation there sh should always be a button as alternative , possibly hidden in the the opened up section um making that something is wrong with it or with somebody 's voice , maybe they got a cold or um we should definitely avoid the big square block look . that 's just wrong . project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and um we got an email uh from i think it 's the the research department , and they 've said th the voice control um can now talk back if you ask it a question . project manager: mm . user interface: so it sh it could be good to have them um confirm any action you take project manager: aye that 's a good idea , yeah . user interface: and possibility . right and these are problems i 've had with it . um i do n't know where the slogan should go , or really what the slogan is . i think it 's um , fashion into electronics . project manager: yeah . user interface: and we do n't know how flexible the colour scheme is . i mean you say you wanted the the corporate colours , but they do n't say you know if we can use any other colours at all or marketing: mm . project manager: okay . marketing: mm . industrial designer: cool . user interface: that 's it . project manager: okay . marketing: great . lots of good information there . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah that that was very good , industrial designer: mm 'kay um . project manager: and uh now with david . marketing: user interface: i think i 'm cool . marketing: it 's a shame the cable was n't just in the middle of the table , project manager: i know it 'd be handy , would n't it . user interface: marketing: huh ? just um industrial designer: oops . project manager: do y do you wan na sit in the the line of sight of this um industrial designer: yeah okay . let me just get this going first . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: ah there it is . project manager: marketing: it takes a second , does n't it ? industrial designer: 'kay , that should be it . okay um i guess the same thing again , i started with something very basic . marketing: industrial designer: so just so you guys have some idea of what 's involved in my process , um and then you can just work through it marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and we 'll either modify it or start from scratch um depending on what your needs are . um the components are exactly the same . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um i think , like what you guys said , um the most input that 's needed is basically in the user interface . the rest of the components um they do have an impact in terms of cost and complexity . um like you said time to market was a problem , um and how many components are physically in there in cost . and the power is basically a factor of that . um and the lower components , the power , the logic , the transmitter , and the infrared , um they affect you in terms of the size of your device , um and that would have some inte impact on how y i think more how you hold rather than um the actual use using the the remote control because um like we 've said we 've defined , like we only want the basic things that to be visible , and the rest of them we try to hide . so um you know it 's just a matter of working out space . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so i guess three things , um cost , um complexity , and the size . these are the three things that um will have an impact on you . so just go through it in the components . um these are the options that are available to you , um i 'm not very sure about the voice thing 'cause i got another email and it was in fact quite sketchy on what n the voice options are . user interface: right . industrial designer: um it said it could talk to you , but it never said anything about being able to listen . i it said something about a sensor but never clarified that . marketing: mm . industrial designer: so maybe if you project manager: hmm . industrial designer: well i could see the other email that they sent you , um 'cause they got back to me with like different requirements , or different offerings of what components availa okay so your basic components are buttons , user interface: right . industrial designer: okay and you have a wheel available , like a mouse scroll wheel , project manager: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: okay there 's an lcd display , marketing: industrial designer: um i think these are quite standard things . marketing: they 're standard , are n't they ? industrial designer: no um they 're well in the sense that these are all the options available for you . i 'll explain to you the complexity and the cost thing again a bit later . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: okay um then there 's um how the case actually looks . it can actually be flat or it can be curved , um and then the different types of materials that you can use , um i do n't think you can use them in a combination , um but um project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i could check back for you , but i do n't think you can actually use them in a combination . project manager: we you could n't have like plastic and rubber ? industrial designer: um i think plastic and rubber would be fine , but plastic , rubber , and wood , i was n't i 'm not very sure about the titanium . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: they had some restrictions on using the rubber and the titanium . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: um the rubber was a restriction on the kind of power source you could use , project manager: mm 'kay . industrial designer: but the titanium had a different kind of things on the shape of the thing , project manager: okay . industrial designer: so i think that there is some restriction on um i think you could probably group plastic and rubber together , wood and titanium , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but you know it might be easier from a cost perspective and a complexity just to use one . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: you know as opposed to two . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and the other components are logic chips , um again i 'll i 'll go back to the component chips . the com how complex or how easy the logic is , it depends on how many functions you have on the on the unit um and that impacts cost . um i do n't think the logic chip has a issue about size 'cause they should be about the same size . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: power consumption should be about the same . um i think the main impact is complexity , marketing: hmm . industrial designer: um and the other thing is um the power options . um the first one is a standard battery . okay the second one i think is more of a gimmick then actually a useable thing , it 's a wind-up you know , a crank . project manager: i 'll clear one of these things for you . just by moving it yeah . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: yeah but that that might be something i think that 's more of a look and feel decision because i do n't think you can have one power source if you 're using the alternative power sources . i think whatever it is you still need a battery 'cause i do n't think anybody wants to keep doing one thing . project manager: mm . user interface: marketing: no . industrial designer: okay the other ones are a solar powered cell , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: which may not be a great idea in europe or any country that has seasons 'cause half the year you 'd be dead . user interface: industrial designer: so like what i said , you probably need like a battery and something else . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and the kinetic one i guess for me is the most interesting one project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: because it 's movement and people like to fiddle with their and it 's a nice sales gimmick i think . project manager: mm . industrial designer: from a marketing gimmick it it 's a technology thing , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it 's a shake it it does n't work , shake it , knock it or something . you know project manager: w yeah . industrial designer: you know marketing: hmm . industrial designer: you have you had those balls , you know those stress balls where you bounce the ball and it and it lights up and it goes , project manager: uh yeah yeah , i see . marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: industrial designer: you know that might be a gimmick combined with rubber . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: you know just to if you get frustrated wi remote control you can throw it , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: kind of you know just uh you know um so . um okay user interface: project manager: i know what you mean yeah . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: my from my role , i do n't think that personal preferences but role preferences , i think um something comfortable to hold , um small and slim marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i guess that 's more in the sense of small and slim in terms of comfortable not so small you ca n't , you know like a phone or something , too small phone . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and the other thing is from a production point of view um the less components we use and the simpler the components means you reduce your cost and you increase your profit . um and also the time to market and the complexity of developing designing and debugging it um so . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm mm-hmm mm-hmm . industrial designer: um okay let me just go back and talk about some of the restrictions . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um the user interface restrictions basically means that if you use more complicated features , like the buttons are standard okay , the lcd panel and the scroll wheel you need more complicated logic . um the case okay with a rubber case you ca n't have the solar panels . project manager: mm . industrial designer: okay with the titanium case , let me just check that um , marketing: industrial designer: titanium case ca n't be curved , it has to be square . project manager: okay . industrial designer: okay um there 's no restriction on the plastic , and marketing: it ca n't be curved . industrial designer: it ca n't be curved on the wood . marketing: okay . industrial designer: so that 's again , i do n't think you can use them in a combination , um especially the titanium project manager: okay . industrial designer: i i suspect they 're very fixed to a particular need . project manager: right . industrial designer: so um mixing them may not be a good idea um yep . that 's it . project manager: okay . right can i marketing: uh question on can i ask a question ? project manager: yeah well yeah it 's just i 'm quite keen to get the discussion going with the time we 've left so but yeah you c ask away . marketing: okay . can we uh power a light in this ? can we get a strong enough battery to power a light ? industrial designer: um i think we could because the lcd panel requires power , and the lcd is a form of a light project manager: mm . marketing: okay . industrial designer: so that marketing: so maybe one of the things we can just try and include is a really good battery . project manager: why what kind of light do you want are you thinking of ? marketing: well i mean i 'm thinking it might be that for uh this to be a high-tech thing it 's gon na have to have something high-tech about it project manager: uh-huh . yeah . marketing: and that 's gon na take battery power , and to make that to make that a realistic goal i think one of the issues that will come up later is , can the battery power it ? industrial designer: are you thinking are you thinking of of a light in the sense of um a light light , or a light in the sense of it glows kind of you know frankenstein , it 's alive . marketing: illuminate the buttons . yeah it glows . well m i 'm thinking along the lines of you 're you 're in the dark watching a d_v_d_ and you um you find the thing in the dark and you go like this , industrial designer: okay . marketing: and that 's what everybody does . oh where 's the volume button in the dark , industrial designer: okay . project manager: yeah yeah yeah . marketing: and uh y you just touch it , or you just pick it up , and it lights up or something . project manager: like a phone yeah , like the backlight in a phone . industrial designer: okay . marketing: like a phone , yeah yeah . project manager: okay cool . marketing: whereas with phones , people charge them once a week . project manager: yeah . marketing: we 're gon na need to put in a really good battery so people do n't have to charge their r remote control every few days . industrial designer: um that 's why i think the option of the the kinetic thing which basically means as long as you shake it like a watch , like an automatic watch project manager: mm . marketing: but are people gon na wan na shake their movie controller ? industrial designer: um it 's probably sensitive enough when you fiddle it . marketing: right . industrial designer: so you could trigger that to a light , project manager: mm . marketing: sure . industrial designer: like i said the bouncing ball thing , or you could trigger that to use that to power the light project manager: okay . industrial designer: as opposed to marketing: okay . industrial designer: so when they pick it up , right , and then that that sorta triggers the marketing: right . project manager: okay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: right industrial designer: glowingness . project manager: okay um well marketing: okay , great . project manager: let 's just go right back to the marketing ideas for a start , and just giving an id idea on the time , we 've got about fifteen minutes to play with at most . so um yeah so just t to bear in mind that the ultimate goal of this meeting is to reach an decision on the the the concepts of the product . marketing: okay . okay . project manager: so back to your idea about um incorporating the idea of like fruit and veg , and the corporate colour , and things like that . marketing: yeah . project manager: um i mean what does everybody think about marketing: yeah . project manager: does anybody have any ideas of about how we can fit all that in together ? i mean that 's kind of the user interface type of thing , what are your thoughts on that ? user interface: um i think we could go for like um maybe not a p a fruit shape but a very sort of curvy type shape . um you could have the same sort of texture and colour as a fruit . project manager: so maybe do y are we thinking something that like s could sit in your hand comfortably , or do you th you 'd hold onto comfortably or user interface: um probably something that s sits in your hand comfortably , sort of feels right in your hand . project manager: so something quite curvy ? okay um right okay . colour-wise i mean you made a re uh was it you or uh i ca n't remember who made the point about how if you 've a nice bright colour you 'll not lose it , was that industrial designer: i think he made that . project manager: whose user interface: marketing: what 's that ? project manager: about how if you have a bright colour you 'll not lose it so much . marketing: yeah . project manager: um and when the corporate colour is yellow , i mean maybe we could think about about the colour of the whole product being yellow i do n't know . um marketing: okay . project manager: and then obviously the uh the materials when it has anybody got like an overall picture in their mind about what what might work ? that 's all . marketing: well i mean i 'm thinking that what we need to do is have something that kind of unifies a lot of the different concepts , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and if we think that what we are w our number one marketing motive is um the look and feel . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so for the look and feel to seem coherent and not just sorta bits and bits and pieces of of concept and technology or or whatever or fashion , then we should have it kind of come back to one thing that we kind of all sorta can visualize . um maybe what we could do is t th think about a concept which touches b back to the on the um the colour , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: you said company colour yellow . i mean if we think of something , like i was saying also lime and lemon you know , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: what can we come up with something where we we try and associate it with with like the series . we just come up with something like that we kind of use it as a theme to inspire the project manager: okay . marketing: shapes and things . project manager: right . industrial designer: is there a particular shape that you 're interested in ? like does marketing have any research on does it need to be long ? marketing: industrial designer: does it need with a square thing wha project manager: oh you know like in circular in shape or industrial designer: yeah 'cause that will n help narrow down the choice of marketing: yeah . project manager: choice of material yeah . industrial designer: like fruit . i 'm thinking fruits in my head , but that 's tacky . project manager: 'cause i i i was kinda thinking about as well you know how you get these shock resistant mobile phones , user interface: see i 'm project manager: and they 're plastic but then also have like rubber on the outside , and it kinda feels it feels kind of warmer to the touch . it feels a bit more comfortable , and maybe we could incorporate plastic and rubber into it . and then then we could have curved shapes , 'cause wood or titanium , yeah , it 's gon na have to be boxy and rectangular and i think we might be moving away from that you know so um well i 'm do we really want it in like the shape of a lemon or marketing: no no no not at all . project manager: no i do n't think we do either . marketing: it 's more more just that we we think about like what it is we 're trying to achieve , so and then we have one one sorta theme that we stick with . project manager: okay right well um marketing: do you know what i mean ? project manager: so thoughts about the actual shape of the thing . user interface: i 'd quite like a sort of uh snowman type shape . project manager: a snowman shape ? user interface: um so a p sort of larger bit sits in your hand , and then you got maybe another bubble at the top for just any other function you need . project manager: uh-huh . that 's quite a distinctive shape , marketing: right , project manager: that would be good marketing: sure . project manager: would n't it . yeah marketing: yeah . project manager: so yeah should we go with that ? marketing: um can we yeah like to and wha like do you have a project manager: do you wan na draw it on the board ? user interface: marketing: can you like yeah just t we can visualize it . user interface: um something like that um you got two groups there um maybe it could fold up and you get a third group inside project manager: ooh that 'd be good . user interface: or uh you have volume controls about there . marketing: okay . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . yep . project manager: so call it the snowman-shape trademark . yeah that 's cool . um and i mean colour-wise what does everybody think ? i think it is quite important to get yellow in there somewhere . i mean do you want the whole thing yellow , maybe like yellow and white do you want something marketing: mm . user interface: so i reckon it 'd look quite nice if we just had um this here , had a sorta background yellow , marketing: project manager: uh-huh . user interface: and then have sort of a nice bold colour for the buttons . project manager: okay cool . um and also i mean how are we going to incorporate the slogan in ? the fact that it talks to you , i mean it might be quite cool if when you first start using it it says , what is it , putting fashion into electronics or something , i dunno . or when you like or if you turn it off or something if it can speak if it could actually say the slogan it might be a bit more powerful than just having it written on it somewhere . user interface: i think that might scare me . project manager: i d i d any thoughts on that at all ? user interface: i think that 'd probably scare me . you turn it on your control possessed s . project manager: i know . um unless an a i mean if you also would that work if we wanted to incorporate um an lcd display , where would we put that ? would we put that on the inside or industrial designer: do we need an lcd display ? user interface: um industrial designer: what what 's the functionality of that ? project manager: it 's bound to increase the cost of it a lot , i would 've thought . industrial designer: yeah but the question is what are we using it marketing: what would it achieve ? industrial designer: what would we what would we achieve from it ? putting in lights is cheap but putting in an lcd panel just to make it glow is a bit of a marketing: well l_c_ well i 'd when you used to mention the lcd i 'd think i wonder what that would be about . and the th the thing i could see it helping with would be if it was somehow connected with um listings . project manager: yeah . marketing: so as you scroll through , 'cause we said we might have a jog dial , so as you scroll through your stations you can y it actually tells you what it is . industrial designer: mm-hmm . i think that will be a problem because we do n't have an input device to get the listings into it , marketing: right , okay . industrial designer: so um it 's a bit nuts to get the monday tuesday wednesday you know . project manager: mm oh yeah that 's true . yeah . so so no need for an lcd display ? marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: um i i 'm not saying there 's no need for an lcd display , but um it 's what 's what what would it tell the user , project manager: i think that would make it very complex . industrial designer: 'cause the lcd tends to be an output as uh as opposed to an input so um does the remote control need to talk back to the user ? project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: mm not real industrial designer: we have the option of the speaker as well the sa the same thing goes for the speaker , is there a need for the remote control to to talk back ? marketing: project manager: i do n't know if there is really , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: nah . project manager: no um industrial designer: um project manager: i would say no need for a talk-back . uh does anybody disagree with that ? industrial designer: you could put a game on it . project manager: no ? marketing: no . user interface: marketing: project manager: easy . industrial designer: when the tv dies you can play with the remote control . project manager: okay um right marketing: mm mm . project manager: so you 're gon na have the three different sets of of functionalities , um i mean do you wan na group them into s head of the snowman , body of the snowman , inside of the snowman , is that what you 're thinking ? user interface: um well i think the advanced ones the the ones you do n't usually use could be hid inside . project manager: okay . user interface: b um i think the we had were fairly basic ones , they 'd have to go on the the front somewhere . project manager: okay right um what else do you need to talk about ? marketing: well i i was just industrial designer: where would you physically position the buttons ? um i think that that has some impact on on on many things . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um maybe you wan na draw onto the user interface: um marketing: yeah . project manager: so i 'm just gon na um pop this in here 'cause i have a slide about decision making which i 'd forgotten about . industrial designer: yep . project manager: oh sh god we 've got five minutes um okay uh back we go . um energy what do you think that 's suggesting we 're how we 're powering the thing ? i really like the idea of this kinetic thing where you 'd have the back-up of the battery , but have have kinetic power , marketing: yeah , sure . project manager: i mean what does anybody think about that ? marketing: um i 've had kinetic things before , and the the the one issue we need to keep in mind with them is that you 're committing the user to moving it , industrial designer: no , like i said we have a h hybrid kind of thing , so it 's not gon na charge the battery , it 's just marketing: and watches yeah sure , okay , right , okay . project manager: okay . marketing: support for it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i mean just it 's just worth pointing out because like i 've i 've known i 've known people to have kinetic watches that they wear all the time , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and it 's just like magic because it 's always powered and there 's no battery . i 've also known people to have things like like a jewellery watch they wear from time to time , and they eventually just say it 's just too much of a nuisance because i do n't wear it all the time . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yep . marketing: like remote control is similar , you 're away on vacation , i dunno whatever , you something , and it just starts to get worn down . project manager: yeah . well i suppose that if you 're if you 're away and you 're not using it , then you 're not using any power either . marketing: so we should think about project manager: so you 'd have the battery as the kind of to keep it ticking over idea marketing: yeah . project manager: i 'm really sorry we 're gon na have to wrap up quite quickly , we do n't have as much time as i thought . um so i think that 's what energy is referring to here . marketing: yep . project manager: chip on print , is that that 's an industrial design thing , is it david ? industrial designer: yes yes . project manager: okay um as for the case , kind of discussed that marketing: and this size here , i 'd suggest this be small , like quite small . project manager: yeah i know we 're gon na have like rubber buttons that feel kind of okay . user interface: yeah i think so yeah . marketing: um just a a lot of the um i mean one of the things running through my mind right now , i realise we 're being efficient to wrap up the meeting and have lots of decisions made , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um but we are leaning quite a bit to the side of being low-tech , rubber buttons plastic frame , it 's almost like we 're reproducing the same old remote control that 's out there . project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: should we think about how we are actually getting this high-tech user friendly uh um theme like what is it that we 're u we 're using to to achieve those goals ? project manager: could have things like backlighting the buttons and stuff like that . marketing: like okay so so backlighting , that would be good . industrial designer: or even a clear case . um you know a a glowing a a glowing yellow type case where the yellow is showable , marketing: yeah clear , project manager: aye that would be a good idea . marketing: okay . industrial designer: but in the dark it sort of , it 's alive . user interface: marketing: yeah sure . industrial designer: um in in a slight subtle way . project manager: s so like cur slightly transparent case , so it 's yellow , like tinted yellow , but you can maybe see through it . marketing: yeah that 'd be really good . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . or or there might be a light running through it like a mouse . project manager: is that what you mean ? industrial designer: you know you have cordless mice and they do n't eat that much power right . marketing: sure . industrial designer: so the power the battery in that sense , marketing: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: maybe you have one or two stratig strategically placed lights marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that sort of marketing: sure . yeah they they emanate a light through it . industrial designer: yeah project manager: okay . industrial designer: but because the case is transparent so it gives it a little bit of a glow , does n't make it freaky . project manager: lights . marketing: 'kay . yeah , project manager: okay . marketing: mm-hmm . um and then the other thing that we we 're s we 've committed ourselves to achieving is simplicity , and so i 'm thinking maybe should we try and think about having something like um some kind of an innovative concept about how the um the volume and the channels are controlled , 'cause that 's the main thing people will f wan na do . project manager: mm . marketing: could we use like a jog dial , like a nice just sort of round , somewhere on it where you just roll it ? industrial designer: the question is when you 're rolling it , how do you wan na roll it ? marketing: or industrial designer: do you want 'em to roll it like that ? do you want 'em to roll it like that ? 'cause in a mouse your hand 's in a position to roll it , project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: whereas the other thing about having it jog dial this way , it tends to get moved accidentally . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah if you are holding it in your hand you could you could do that , could n't you ? marketing: well why do n't we do it like a mouse then ? project manager: if you 're holding it in your hand you could industrial designer: that 's a very unnatural motion to project manager: do you think ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: can you imagine you have to scroll a lot . um it might work for volume , and maybe some of the brightness controls and stuff like that , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but not for channels right . project manager: mm . industrial designer: if you have a telewest box you 've got like , you do n't have to buy all the channels , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: you 've about fifty channels , can you imagine trying to . project manager: yeah marketing: yeah . project manager: okay okay industrial designer: um and i do n't think having that you know too quick too slow kin it 's confusing to the marketing: yeah , sure . project manager: um user interface: well , but then for um for skipping a large amount of channels you do have to uh to skip the channel button , the number part . marketing: mm . industrial designer: i dunno . but users tend to tend to want to use that project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and once they lose out on the user experience they 're like because that 's becomes the most accessible thing in front of project manager: okay . user interface: uh but project manager: okay . marketing: but that 's not a bad thing is it ? project manager: just marketing: because when you think about it , the alternative is to go push the button . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: jog dials are much easier than that . project manager: okay um right well would n't it marketing: you just roll . project manager: we do need to make a decision on whether we want to incorporate a jog dial in nice and quickly . um i 'm all for them actually , i think they 're quite you know th very quick to m to use . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: so does anybody oppose the idea of of incorporating one into the design at all ? no . and the other thing was um can we think of any way of getting the slogan into this thing ? marketing: yeah like i mean if we if if we keep coming back to this board here , project manager: uh-huh . marketing: i would n't be surprised if we could take this idea , imagine that , i dunno , that it 's within the shape of the hand , it 's quite small project manager: uh-huh ooh okay , we really got ta wrap up marketing: i dunno . project manager: so yeah . marketing: yeah . it 's small , and that we 've got like the the l slogan somewhere like on the casing at the side , project manager: okay well if we can do that , great . marketing: and that yeah project manager: yeah okay . marketing: well i mean is n't that what we just h said said we s just have to decide now ? project manager: yeah let 's let 's try and get the slogan on there um , and marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so you wan na expand the shape of the marketing: and then like a jo and then like a jog dial somewhere that fits in with the shape of it like i dunno like here , in with the industrial designer: that that might have one problem in terms of um in terms of whether you 're left handed or you 're right handed you might be locking yourself in . marketing: it would get bumped , it 's does n't really fit with your hand . project manager: mm . marketing: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: or maybe just fit it in like down the middle here . industrial designer: could i just could i just jump in and suggest something quickly ? project manager: okay . right i 'm gon na have to user interface: marketing: a jog di project manager: i 'm really gon na have to hurry you on here 'cause we 're we 're actually over time . marketing: yeah project manager: um is there anything anybody 's unsure about ? marketing: . it 's kind of yeah project manager: just for in closing just the next meeting 's gon na be in thirty minutes , and so you can see in the screen here what each of you are gon na hopefully be doing , uh i know that the designers are gon na be working with play-doh on that . marketing: yeah . project manager: so um that 'll be that 'll be good . marketing: huh . project manager: um and i 'll get the the minutes up as soon as possible . anything at all you think we have n't discussed that we need to ? is everybody kind of happy about what they 're gon na be doing ? marketing: um industrial designer: um i think one thing would be the jog dial 'cause that 's gon na have quite a big impact on the thing um marketing: yeah i think the jog dial , you know it just after you drew that , what if it was flat and you just spun it , industrial designer: yeah that 's what i was thinking the marketing: that 'd be great . industrial designer: a slide , because then you you do n't have to put the hand . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think incorporating a logo is quite straight forward . marketing: yep . project manager: okay . industrial designer: there 's lots of space for it um project manager: that 's kind of a design thing that you guys can can discuss , yeah . industrial designer: yeah but it 's also a a marketing and a function user interface: marketing: sure , yeah , project manager: okay . marketing: yeah and materials we sorta said we 'd do plastic and rubber , did n't we , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: and i think maybe we should try and stay away from just the big protruding rubber buttons , 'cause that 'd just be so standard . project manager: to make something flush with the case ? marketing: something a bit more flush , yeah , project manager: okay right . marketing: or maybe have rubber incorporated into the case as well , project manager: okay . marketing: so that it has and also t plastic i 've seen can get really textured , so you can get plastics that actually feel soft in your hand . project manager: sp kinda grippy ? industrial designer: feel like fruit . project manager: okay . industrial designer: fruits kids . user interface: marketing: they feel kind of like um , you get pens now and then that you 'd think that they were rubber but they 're not , industrial designer: no like yeah yeah . marketing: they 're actually just plastic that 's textured , industrial designer: yeah yeah kinda like that yeah . marketing: kind of a little bit like project manager: okay i 'm gon na have to i 'm gon na have to call this to a close 'cause we 're way over time . so um that 's really good , like we 've s had much to talk about that um pretty much run out of time to do so . marketing: okay . project manager: so off you go and design stuff marketing: okay . project manager: wooh . marketing: industrial designer: play-doh time . project manager: yeah quite jealous actually . industrial designer: you got to choose first . no , we 're kidding . marketing: industrial designer: okay , can i just swipe your power cable , i do n't think it matters . okay lem me okay , i 'm gon na pull everybody out first and then put in whoever needs to be left . it 's you . argh . this is a real hassle and a oops . i 'm gon na take the microphones , 'cause it 's too lazy t take them off again . cool .

marketing mentioned that market research emphasized technology innovation which was the ease of use in the functionality . so marketing suggested when they focused on the trend of fruit and vegetable themes , they should know how to fit in with something which was not specifically electronics and how to quickly create a remote in fruit shape .

why did marketing propose lemon or lime when proposing the market trend ? </s> industrial designer: 's to do now is to decide how to fulfil what your stuff is , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so in that sense project manager: okay . marketing: yeah , sure . industrial designer: so it does kind of make sense , yeah . project manager: okay , well marketing: it kinda does make sense , does n't it , because when we get into the end of meeting we 're kind of talking about action and design as opposed to background . industrial designer: yep . project manager: okay . marketing: everything i have is kinda background . project manager: okay we all ready to go ? industrial designer: yep . project manager: well how um on the in this meeting then if we um i 'll just just recap on the minutes from the last meeting . and we uh decided on industrial designer: yep . project manager: decided on our our target group being fifteen to thirty five , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and we decided that it was gon na be non-rechargeable battery-powered , that we 're gon na group our audio-visual and other functions into into those categories , um . and i told you guys about the three new requirements about ignoring teletext , ignoring everything except the tv , and trying to incorporate the the uh corporate colour and slogan . um so that was the last meeting . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: is there anything have i forgotten anything ? industrial designer: no . project manager: is that everything ? marketing: uh that sounds . project manager: okay . um so if we have the three presentations , and then if you have anything to kind of that you know you 're gon na want to discuss , maybe just make a note of it , and we 'll have all the discussion at the end . that might be a better idea this time . marketing: sure . project manager: and so if we start off uh with andrew and then craig and then david , marketing: okay . project manager: if that 's alright . marketing: sure . industrial designer: yep . project manager: um and then after that we 'll have to make some decisions about stuff , right . marketing: yeah , cool . project manager: so if you wan na take this . marketing: why do n't i get that ? hmm . project manager: screwed in quite tightly . uh what did uh how did we leave it with speech recognition now ? we did we say we were gon na try maybe incorporate it but we had n't made a definite decision on that ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: right . oh i should also point out that um the you know the kind of final objective of this meeting is to reach a decision on the concepts of the product . marketing: okay . project manager: so um that 's kind of the end result hopefully . marketing: okay . um alright so c is it function f_ eight ? project manager: uh-huh . hopefully appear in a wee second . marketing: hmm . come on . i think it 's working . project manager: up there we go . marketing: okay great s so let me just start this . okay great . so um uh s move on . uh-huh oh where 'd it all go ? project manager: oh no . marketing: it 's not good . okay lem me just see where i can find it . this looks more like it . i think i just opened up the template . project manager: oh right . marketing: sorry about that . okay alright so let 's have a look here . project manager: here we go . marketing: okay so this was the method that um i 've taken . uh basically what i wan na do here , before we get into it uh too far , is i want to show you all the background information i have that i think we need to acknowledge if we want this to be successful . project manager: okay . marketing: and uh and then sorta g go through some of the way that i 've dealt with that information , and then sort of bring us all together into it to see sorta see how this fits in with the overall vision . um so i 've tried to take a whole lot of market research and summarise it for us , and then ide identify uh trends that are are sort of in sync and are important to our our uh p project plan that we have so far , and then uh initiate a kind of discussion on design options so that it sorta helps us to to narrow in on on aspects that will inform other uh other elements of the of the project . does that make sense , tha that sort of strategy ? industrial designer: yep . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: i thought that that will impact on the rest of what we do , so that 's why i suggested we get in this . project manager: aye a fair point definitely . marketing: okay so out of um different uh figures and ratings ob uh of people in general , um consumers in general , the number one thing that was found was that uh the br t television remote control , a fancy look and feel , okay , and not , it specified , not a functional look or or feel , uh b f f fancy . project manager: okay . marketing: um however , this is where we kinda have to be very , i think , creative about it . number two was that it be innovative . okay so that tells me that we have to find a way to be innovative without a adding just unnecessary um sort of functional bits to it . uh and third priority uh for ease of use , so again that kind of gives us a general picture of how it has to be , um quite user friendly while still having technology . so it i 'll just say right away as a bit of a foreshadowing into how we proceed with this in terms of m marketing , is that i think um what we should think about is how the um about how the innovation uh contributes to the look and feel , and not so much to the functionality of it . project manager: aye right . marketing: for example like when you pick it up and push it like it all lights up or something , you know what i mean , like , or it 's got something else to it that just seems innovative project manager: uh-huh . marketing: because obviously the thing that the message here is ease of use . so how do you make innovation make something more more easy to use ? well that 's i guess where we 're gon na go with this . project manager: okay . marketing: okay then there 's the other aspect of the back the the market um research i have here is on fashion style , okay , which as we 've agreed is a priority . uh top european fashion trend um that i read about says there 's this emerging theme of fruit and vegetables , okay , industrial designer: project manager: marketing: especially in clothes and furniture . and when i first saw that i thought hmm , well do we want to actually try and think about this trend and how we add something to it , or we get right into it , or we completely steer away from it , project manager: okay okay . marketing: do you know what i mean ? so my my feeling is that we w do want to observe this trend , but we want to think also about the fact that it sort of has to fit in with something which is not specifically electronics . um 'cause i think what we 're in what we 're in is partly sort of home decor , partly something like a computer , um so i think we might wan na be careful about how you know how quickly we create like a remote control in the shape of an apple or something , project manager: marketing: i think that would be pushing it . industrial designer: marketing: and then in terms of m material trends are for things to be soft and spongy and sort of , you might say ergonomic or or friendly to handle , which is which also in indicated that last year this was this was not the case . so um probably a lot of the competition on the market will be still in last year 's mode , so if we try and really capitalise on that , i think that 'll be in our favour . um so these this is the summary of everything . um style is number one uh thing in the in the market of who we 're selling to . uh innovative design technology 's also a must in that it 's seen it 'd be seen to be uh cutting edge , uh but ease of use t has to be insured throughout . that was like the number three thing . and then at the end there are vibrant natural colours um that 's the way i interpreted it anyway , softness in materials , shape , and function , and so i 've written at written at the bottom to give us sort of a context of discussion , mac ipods , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: something which is , i 'd have to say very high-tech , ten gigabytes , whatever , but when you hold it in your hand there 's like no buttons . project manager: mm that 's true , yeah . marketing: you know what a mac ipod is ? i 'm thinking however mac ipod is sort of last year 's because it 's very hard and sort of glassy and glossy , so i 'm thinking if we imagine that we 're taking some of the features of a mac ipod and we 're then making it s more of like a more of like a comfortable type of or more of like a maybe more vibrant to friendly thing to have . um and then so this is w with all that information what i 'm what i 'm suggesting in this slide here is that we we take these ideas , and as we get into more the more um techni like sort of production side of things , that we think about shape , materials , and themes or series that go throughout . sort of like a i dunno like um we think of some kind of a thin theme that unifies it all , that we agree on , uh sorta like a marketing identity . um does that make sense ? yeah . so so like i threw out a few ideas there just to kinda get us thinking along those lines like lemon , lime , i dunno , green colours , pe whatever , it 's just an idea , 'cause i 'm thinking that some of these ideas will seem quite coherent if we use them in terms of their what people associate this them with in terms of texture , shape , colours , things like that . project manager: mm 'kay . great . marketing: like um the ones the ones which i 'm most fond of in terms of giving like a theme to it would be like um like lemon or something like that , you know something which is , like you see a lot in in other areas . like i see lots of websites and things that seem to associate with like lemon and lime and project manager: okay . marketing: so anyway it 's just just an idea . project manager: yeah . marketing: i 'm thinking maybe we could incorporate some of these features into a fairly um into something which is which seems to have something to it which is almost gimmicky because like um like something to do with like lighting within it . like you know just within the simple sense , when you pick up a phone and touch a button it uh lights up , q usually the buttons light up . project manager: ah . marketing: how can we build on that ? maybe like it could light up in different colours or something or or people could buy the buy the control and then it comes with different like covers or something so . project manager: okay . marketing: anyway those are that 's all i have , project manager: that 's great . marketing: but uh hopefully we can we can revisit those ideas when we get into project manager: uh-huh . okay great . marketing: project manager: um thank you for that . uh craig do you wan na marketing: yep . project manager: uh plug yours in then ? user interface: is it working ? project manager: mm . not quite . marketing: did you press f_ eight ? industrial designer: it 's probably not sending . yeah . project manager: oh something coming now , yeah . marketing: industrial designer: yep , there it is . project manager: there we go . user interface: and so think of this concept . um to research it i 've um had a look on the the homepage again . it 's provided me with more examples of um previously existing c remote controls . um there 's a wee bit of discussion about the other existing ones there , um so i 've taken the um suggestions from them and tried to incorporate them into this um so then this we 're looking for um suggestions on size th um size of control and the buttons , um the shape of the control , and whereabout the buttons should be located on the control . project manager: mm . user interface: um what i found from the research is that most the current controls are just basically big bricks with loads of buttons all over them . um they 're not very attractive to look at , and they 're not very comfortable to hold , they 're i just hold 'em like big bricks , and they 're very easily lost . um they tend to be very dark colours , so if there are shadowy places down the side of couches you ca n't really see them . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um the the controls themselves tend to use a very inconsistent colour scheme . um for instance , the stand-by button is n't always red , uh it really should be . it 's uh something the user then uh identify with . this is a red switch off , that 's how it should be . um i 'm not sure if there 's any other examples of that , but something to look out for . um there 's a problem that i 've i 've got couple of preferences for the the end control um i get 'em with the the red colour button for stand-by and s the other examples of that um the buttons should be large . they should n't be tiny little things like you get on some mobile phones . they should be easy to press , very comfortable . um one of the examples given on the homepage was um there 's an up and down volume button but both of them have a v_ on them , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so the up volume button looks like it should be a down volume button , that 's kinda confusing . um should avoid s things like that . um if the the corporate colour scheme allows it we should have a very bright colour so that it can be easily identified anywhere . project manager: okay . user interface: um obviously trying trying to avoid being tacky there , but it could um tie-in very easily with your your lime and lemon idea . marketing: yeah . okay , do we have a corporate colour scheme ? project manager: i think it 's yellow marketing: i did n't know . project manager: because like the website is yellow and there 's a band at the bottom is yellow , marketing: okay . industrial designer: and the play-doh 's yellow . project manager: so yellow , lemon , you know definitely food for thought there , marketing: okay . user interface: fantastic . project manager: but keep going marketing: okay . project manager: and we 'll discuss it after . user interface: um marketing: yeah . user interface: any extra features we add beyond the basic ones should be m hidden , they should n't be on the um should n't be visible without something be opened or some sort of special extra effort . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um if we did decide to go for voice activation there sh should always be a button as alternative , possibly hidden in the the opened up section um making that something is wrong with it or with somebody 's voice , maybe they got a cold or um we should definitely avoid the big square block look . that 's just wrong . project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and um we got an email uh from i think it 's the the research department , and they 've said th the voice control um can now talk back if you ask it a question . project manager: mm . user interface: so it sh it could be good to have them um confirm any action you take project manager: aye that 's a good idea , yeah . user interface: and possibility . right and these are problems i 've had with it . um i do n't know where the slogan should go , or really what the slogan is . i think it 's um , fashion into electronics . project manager: yeah . user interface: and we do n't know how flexible the colour scheme is . i mean you say you wanted the the corporate colours , but they do n't say you know if we can use any other colours at all or marketing: mm . project manager: okay . marketing: mm . industrial designer: cool . user interface: that 's it . project manager: okay . marketing: great . lots of good information there . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah that that was very good , industrial designer: mm 'kay um . project manager: and uh now with david . marketing: user interface: i think i 'm cool . marketing: it 's a shame the cable was n't just in the middle of the table , project manager: i know it 'd be handy , would n't it . user interface: marketing: huh ? just um industrial designer: oops . project manager: do y do you wan na sit in the the line of sight of this um industrial designer: yeah okay . let me just get this going first . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: ah there it is . project manager: marketing: it takes a second , does n't it ? industrial designer: 'kay , that should be it . okay um i guess the same thing again , i started with something very basic . marketing: industrial designer: so just so you guys have some idea of what 's involved in my process , um and then you can just work through it marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and we 'll either modify it or start from scratch um depending on what your needs are . um the components are exactly the same . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um i think , like what you guys said , um the most input that 's needed is basically in the user interface . the rest of the components um they do have an impact in terms of cost and complexity . um like you said time to market was a problem , um and how many components are physically in there in cost . and the power is basically a factor of that . um and the lower components , the power , the logic , the transmitter , and the infrared , um they affect you in terms of the size of your device , um and that would have some inte impact on how y i think more how you hold rather than um the actual use using the the remote control because um like we 've said we 've defined , like we only want the basic things that to be visible , and the rest of them we try to hide . so um you know it 's just a matter of working out space . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so i guess three things , um cost , um complexity , and the size . these are the three things that um will have an impact on you . so just go through it in the components . um these are the options that are available to you , um i 'm not very sure about the voice thing 'cause i got another email and it was in fact quite sketchy on what n the voice options are . user interface: right . industrial designer: um it said it could talk to you , but it never said anything about being able to listen . i it said something about a sensor but never clarified that . marketing: mm . industrial designer: so maybe if you project manager: hmm . industrial designer: well i could see the other email that they sent you , um 'cause they got back to me with like different requirements , or different offerings of what components availa okay so your basic components are buttons , user interface: right . industrial designer: okay and you have a wheel available , like a mouse scroll wheel , project manager: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: okay there 's an lcd display , marketing: industrial designer: um i think these are quite standard things . marketing: they 're standard , are n't they ? industrial designer: no um they 're well in the sense that these are all the options available for you . i 'll explain to you the complexity and the cost thing again a bit later . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: okay um then there 's um how the case actually looks . it can actually be flat or it can be curved , um and then the different types of materials that you can use , um i do n't think you can use them in a combination , um but um project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i could check back for you , but i do n't think you can actually use them in a combination . project manager: we you could n't have like plastic and rubber ? industrial designer: um i think plastic and rubber would be fine , but plastic , rubber , and wood , i was n't i 'm not very sure about the titanium . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: they had some restrictions on using the rubber and the titanium . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: um the rubber was a restriction on the kind of power source you could use , project manager: mm 'kay . industrial designer: but the titanium had a different kind of things on the shape of the thing , project manager: okay . industrial designer: so i think that there is some restriction on um i think you could probably group plastic and rubber together , wood and titanium , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but you know it might be easier from a cost perspective and a complexity just to use one . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: you know as opposed to two . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and the other components are logic chips , um again i 'll i 'll go back to the component chips . the com how complex or how easy the logic is , it depends on how many functions you have on the on the unit um and that impacts cost . um i do n't think the logic chip has a issue about size 'cause they should be about the same size . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: power consumption should be about the same . um i think the main impact is complexity , marketing: hmm . industrial designer: um and the other thing is um the power options . um the first one is a standard battery . okay the second one i think is more of a gimmick then actually a useable thing , it 's a wind-up you know , a crank . project manager: i 'll clear one of these things for you . just by moving it yeah . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: yeah but that that might be something i think that 's more of a look and feel decision because i do n't think you can have one power source if you 're using the alternative power sources . i think whatever it is you still need a battery 'cause i do n't think anybody wants to keep doing one thing . project manager: mm . user interface: marketing: no . industrial designer: okay the other ones are a solar powered cell , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: which may not be a great idea in europe or any country that has seasons 'cause half the year you 'd be dead . user interface: industrial designer: so like what i said , you probably need like a battery and something else . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and the kinetic one i guess for me is the most interesting one project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: because it 's movement and people like to fiddle with their and it 's a nice sales gimmick i think . project manager: mm . industrial designer: from a marketing gimmick it it 's a technology thing , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it 's a shake it it does n't work , shake it , knock it or something . you know project manager: w yeah . industrial designer: you know marketing: hmm . industrial designer: you have you had those balls , you know those stress balls where you bounce the ball and it and it lights up and it goes , project manager: uh yeah yeah , i see . marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: industrial designer: you know that might be a gimmick combined with rubber . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: you know just to if you get frustrated wi remote control you can throw it , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: kind of you know just uh you know um so . um okay user interface: project manager: i know what you mean yeah . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: my from my role , i do n't think that personal preferences but role preferences , i think um something comfortable to hold , um small and slim marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i guess that 's more in the sense of small and slim in terms of comfortable not so small you ca n't , you know like a phone or something , too small phone . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and the other thing is from a production point of view um the less components we use and the simpler the components means you reduce your cost and you increase your profit . um and also the time to market and the complexity of developing designing and debugging it um so . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm mm-hmm mm-hmm . industrial designer: um okay let me just go back and talk about some of the restrictions . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um the user interface restrictions basically means that if you use more complicated features , like the buttons are standard okay , the lcd panel and the scroll wheel you need more complicated logic . um the case okay with a rubber case you ca n't have the solar panels . project manager: mm . industrial designer: okay with the titanium case , let me just check that um , marketing: industrial designer: titanium case ca n't be curved , it has to be square . project manager: okay . industrial designer: okay um there 's no restriction on the plastic , and marketing: it ca n't be curved . industrial designer: it ca n't be curved on the wood . marketing: okay . industrial designer: so that 's again , i do n't think you can use them in a combination , um especially the titanium project manager: okay . industrial designer: i i suspect they 're very fixed to a particular need . project manager: right . industrial designer: so um mixing them may not be a good idea um yep . that 's it . project manager: okay . right can i marketing: uh question on can i ask a question ? project manager: yeah well yeah it 's just i 'm quite keen to get the discussion going with the time we 've left so but yeah you c ask away . marketing: okay . can we uh power a light in this ? can we get a strong enough battery to power a light ? industrial designer: um i think we could because the lcd panel requires power , and the lcd is a form of a light project manager: mm . marketing: okay . industrial designer: so that marketing: so maybe one of the things we can just try and include is a really good battery . project manager: why what kind of light do you want are you thinking of ? marketing: well i mean i 'm thinking it might be that for uh this to be a high-tech thing it 's gon na have to have something high-tech about it project manager: uh-huh . yeah . marketing: and that 's gon na take battery power , and to make that to make that a realistic goal i think one of the issues that will come up later is , can the battery power it ? industrial designer: are you thinking are you thinking of of a light in the sense of um a light light , or a light in the sense of it glows kind of you know frankenstein , it 's alive . marketing: illuminate the buttons . yeah it glows . well m i 'm thinking along the lines of you 're you 're in the dark watching a d_v_d_ and you um you find the thing in the dark and you go like this , industrial designer: okay . marketing: and that 's what everybody does . oh where 's the volume button in the dark , industrial designer: okay . project manager: yeah yeah yeah . marketing: and uh y you just touch it , or you just pick it up , and it lights up or something . project manager: like a phone yeah , like the backlight in a phone . industrial designer: okay . marketing: like a phone , yeah yeah . project manager: okay cool . marketing: whereas with phones , people charge them once a week . project manager: yeah . marketing: we 're gon na need to put in a really good battery so people do n't have to charge their r remote control every few days . industrial designer: um that 's why i think the option of the the kinetic thing which basically means as long as you shake it like a watch , like an automatic watch project manager: mm . marketing: but are people gon na wan na shake their movie controller ? industrial designer: um it 's probably sensitive enough when you fiddle it . marketing: right . industrial designer: so you could trigger that to a light , project manager: mm . marketing: sure . industrial designer: like i said the bouncing ball thing , or you could trigger that to use that to power the light project manager: okay . industrial designer: as opposed to marketing: okay . industrial designer: so when they pick it up , right , and then that that sorta triggers the marketing: right . project manager: okay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: right industrial designer: glowingness . project manager: okay um well marketing: okay , great . project manager: let 's just go right back to the marketing ideas for a start , and just giving an id idea on the time , we 've got about fifteen minutes to play with at most . so um yeah so just t to bear in mind that the ultimate goal of this meeting is to reach an decision on the the the concepts of the product . marketing: okay . okay . project manager: so back to your idea about um incorporating the idea of like fruit and veg , and the corporate colour , and things like that . marketing: yeah . project manager: um i mean what does everybody think about marketing: yeah . project manager: does anybody have any ideas of about how we can fit all that in together ? i mean that 's kind of the user interface type of thing , what are your thoughts on that ? user interface: um i think we could go for like um maybe not a p a fruit shape but a very sort of curvy type shape . um you could have the same sort of texture and colour as a fruit . project manager: so maybe do y are we thinking something that like s could sit in your hand comfortably , or do you th you 'd hold onto comfortably or user interface: um probably something that s sits in your hand comfortably , sort of feels right in your hand . project manager: so something quite curvy ? okay um right okay . colour-wise i mean you made a re uh was it you or uh i ca n't remember who made the point about how if you 've a nice bright colour you 'll not lose it , was that industrial designer: i think he made that . project manager: whose user interface: marketing: what 's that ? project manager: about how if you have a bright colour you 'll not lose it so much . marketing: yeah . project manager: um and when the corporate colour is yellow , i mean maybe we could think about about the colour of the whole product being yellow i do n't know . um marketing: okay . project manager: and then obviously the uh the materials when it has anybody got like an overall picture in their mind about what what might work ? that 's all . marketing: well i mean i 'm thinking that what we need to do is have something that kind of unifies a lot of the different concepts , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and if we think that what we are w our number one marketing motive is um the look and feel . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so for the look and feel to seem coherent and not just sorta bits and bits and pieces of of concept and technology or or whatever or fashion , then we should have it kind of come back to one thing that we kind of all sorta can visualize . um maybe what we could do is t th think about a concept which touches b back to the on the um the colour , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: you said company colour yellow . i mean if we think of something , like i was saying also lime and lemon you know , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: what can we come up with something where we we try and associate it with with like the series . we just come up with something like that we kind of use it as a theme to inspire the project manager: okay . marketing: shapes and things . project manager: right . industrial designer: is there a particular shape that you 're interested in ? like does marketing have any research on does it need to be long ? marketing: industrial designer: does it need with a square thing wha project manager: oh you know like in circular in shape or industrial designer: yeah 'cause that will n help narrow down the choice of marketing: yeah . project manager: choice of material yeah . industrial designer: like fruit . i 'm thinking fruits in my head , but that 's tacky . project manager: 'cause i i i was kinda thinking about as well you know how you get these shock resistant mobile phones , user interface: see i 'm project manager: and they 're plastic but then also have like rubber on the outside , and it kinda feels it feels kind of warmer to the touch . it feels a bit more comfortable , and maybe we could incorporate plastic and rubber into it . and then then we could have curved shapes , 'cause wood or titanium , yeah , it 's gon na have to be boxy and rectangular and i think we might be moving away from that you know so um well i 'm do we really want it in like the shape of a lemon or marketing: no no no not at all . project manager: no i do n't think we do either . marketing: it 's more more just that we we think about like what it is we 're trying to achieve , so and then we have one one sorta theme that we stick with . project manager: okay right well um marketing: do you know what i mean ? project manager: so thoughts about the actual shape of the thing . user interface: i 'd quite like a sort of uh snowman type shape . project manager: a snowman shape ? user interface: um so a p sort of larger bit sits in your hand , and then you got maybe another bubble at the top for just any other function you need . project manager: uh-huh . that 's quite a distinctive shape , marketing: right , project manager: that would be good marketing: sure . project manager: would n't it . yeah marketing: yeah . project manager: so yeah should we go with that ? marketing: um can we yeah like to and wha like do you have a project manager: do you wan na draw it on the board ? user interface: marketing: can you like yeah just t we can visualize it . user interface: um something like that um you got two groups there um maybe it could fold up and you get a third group inside project manager: ooh that 'd be good . user interface: or uh you have volume controls about there . marketing: okay . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . yep . project manager: so call it the snowman-shape trademark . yeah that 's cool . um and i mean colour-wise what does everybody think ? i think it is quite important to get yellow in there somewhere . i mean do you want the whole thing yellow , maybe like yellow and white do you want something marketing: mm . user interface: so i reckon it 'd look quite nice if we just had um this here , had a sorta background yellow , marketing: project manager: uh-huh . user interface: and then have sort of a nice bold colour for the buttons . project manager: okay cool . um and also i mean how are we going to incorporate the slogan in ? the fact that it talks to you , i mean it might be quite cool if when you first start using it it says , what is it , putting fashion into electronics or something , i dunno . or when you like or if you turn it off or something if it can speak if it could actually say the slogan it might be a bit more powerful than just having it written on it somewhere . user interface: i think that might scare me . project manager: i d i d any thoughts on that at all ? user interface: i think that 'd probably scare me . you turn it on your control possessed s . project manager: i know . um unless an a i mean if you also would that work if we wanted to incorporate um an lcd display , where would we put that ? would we put that on the inside or industrial designer: do we need an lcd display ? user interface: um industrial designer: what what 's the functionality of that ? project manager: it 's bound to increase the cost of it a lot , i would 've thought . industrial designer: yeah but the question is what are we using it marketing: what would it achieve ? industrial designer: what would we what would we achieve from it ? putting in lights is cheap but putting in an lcd panel just to make it glow is a bit of a marketing: well l_c_ well i 'd when you used to mention the lcd i 'd think i wonder what that would be about . and the th the thing i could see it helping with would be if it was somehow connected with um listings . project manager: yeah . marketing: so as you scroll through , 'cause we said we might have a jog dial , so as you scroll through your stations you can y it actually tells you what it is . industrial designer: mm-hmm . i think that will be a problem because we do n't have an input device to get the listings into it , marketing: right , okay . industrial designer: so um it 's a bit nuts to get the monday tuesday wednesday you know . project manager: mm oh yeah that 's true . yeah . so so no need for an lcd display ? marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: um i i 'm not saying there 's no need for an lcd display , but um it 's what 's what what would it tell the user , project manager: i think that would make it very complex . industrial designer: 'cause the lcd tends to be an output as uh as opposed to an input so um does the remote control need to talk back to the user ? project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: mm not real industrial designer: we have the option of the speaker as well the sa the same thing goes for the speaker , is there a need for the remote control to to talk back ? marketing: project manager: i do n't know if there is really , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: nah . project manager: no um industrial designer: um project manager: i would say no need for a talk-back . uh does anybody disagree with that ? industrial designer: you could put a game on it . project manager: no ? marketing: no . user interface: marketing: project manager: easy . industrial designer: when the tv dies you can play with the remote control . project manager: okay um right marketing: mm mm . project manager: so you 're gon na have the three different sets of of functionalities , um i mean do you wan na group them into s head of the snowman , body of the snowman , inside of the snowman , is that what you 're thinking ? user interface: um well i think the advanced ones the the ones you do n't usually use could be hid inside . project manager: okay . user interface: b um i think the we had were fairly basic ones , they 'd have to go on the the front somewhere . project manager: okay right um what else do you need to talk about ? marketing: well i i was just industrial designer: where would you physically position the buttons ? um i think that that has some impact on on on many things . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um maybe you wan na draw onto the user interface: um marketing: yeah . project manager: so i 'm just gon na um pop this in here 'cause i have a slide about decision making which i 'd forgotten about . industrial designer: yep . project manager: oh sh god we 've got five minutes um okay uh back we go . um energy what do you think that 's suggesting we 're how we 're powering the thing ? i really like the idea of this kinetic thing where you 'd have the back-up of the battery , but have have kinetic power , marketing: yeah , sure . project manager: i mean what does anybody think about that ? marketing: um i 've had kinetic things before , and the the the one issue we need to keep in mind with them is that you 're committing the user to moving it , industrial designer: no , like i said we have a h hybrid kind of thing , so it 's not gon na charge the battery , it 's just marketing: and watches yeah sure , okay , right , okay . project manager: okay . marketing: support for it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i mean just it 's just worth pointing out because like i 've i 've known i 've known people to have kinetic watches that they wear all the time , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and it 's just like magic because it 's always powered and there 's no battery . i 've also known people to have things like like a jewellery watch they wear from time to time , and they eventually just say it 's just too much of a nuisance because i do n't wear it all the time . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yep . marketing: like remote control is similar , you 're away on vacation , i dunno whatever , you something , and it just starts to get worn down . project manager: yeah . well i suppose that if you 're if you 're away and you 're not using it , then you 're not using any power either . marketing: so we should think about project manager: so you 'd have the battery as the kind of to keep it ticking over idea marketing: yeah . project manager: i 'm really sorry we 're gon na have to wrap up quite quickly , we do n't have as much time as i thought . um so i think that 's what energy is referring to here . marketing: yep . project manager: chip on print , is that that 's an industrial design thing , is it david ? industrial designer: yes yes . project manager: okay um as for the case , kind of discussed that marketing: and this size here , i 'd suggest this be small , like quite small . project manager: yeah i know we 're gon na have like rubber buttons that feel kind of okay . user interface: yeah i think so yeah . marketing: um just a a lot of the um i mean one of the things running through my mind right now , i realise we 're being efficient to wrap up the meeting and have lots of decisions made , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um but we are leaning quite a bit to the side of being low-tech , rubber buttons plastic frame , it 's almost like we 're reproducing the same old remote control that 's out there . project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: should we think about how we are actually getting this high-tech user friendly uh um theme like what is it that we 're u we 're using to to achieve those goals ? project manager: could have things like backlighting the buttons and stuff like that . marketing: like okay so so backlighting , that would be good . industrial designer: or even a clear case . um you know a a glowing a a glowing yellow type case where the yellow is showable , marketing: yeah clear , project manager: aye that would be a good idea . marketing: okay . industrial designer: but in the dark it sort of , it 's alive . user interface: marketing: yeah sure . industrial designer: um in in a slight subtle way . project manager: s so like cur slightly transparent case , so it 's yellow , like tinted yellow , but you can maybe see through it . marketing: yeah that 'd be really good . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . or or there might be a light running through it like a mouse . project manager: is that what you mean ? industrial designer: you know you have cordless mice and they do n't eat that much power right . marketing: sure . industrial designer: so the power the battery in that sense , marketing: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: maybe you have one or two stratig strategically placed lights marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that sort of marketing: sure . yeah they they emanate a light through it . industrial designer: yeah project manager: okay . industrial designer: but because the case is transparent so it gives it a little bit of a glow , does n't make it freaky . project manager: lights . marketing: 'kay . yeah , project manager: okay . marketing: mm-hmm . um and then the other thing that we we 're s we 've committed ourselves to achieving is simplicity , and so i 'm thinking maybe should we try and think about having something like um some kind of an innovative concept about how the um the volume and the channels are controlled , 'cause that 's the main thing people will f wan na do . project manager: mm . marketing: could we use like a jog dial , like a nice just sort of round , somewhere on it where you just roll it ? industrial designer: the question is when you 're rolling it , how do you wan na roll it ? marketing: or industrial designer: do you want 'em to roll it like that ? do you want 'em to roll it like that ? 'cause in a mouse your hand 's in a position to roll it , project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: whereas the other thing about having it jog dial this way , it tends to get moved accidentally . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah if you are holding it in your hand you could you could do that , could n't you ? marketing: well why do n't we do it like a mouse then ? project manager: if you 're holding it in your hand you could industrial designer: that 's a very unnatural motion to project manager: do you think ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: can you imagine you have to scroll a lot . um it might work for volume , and maybe some of the brightness controls and stuff like that , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but not for channels right . project manager: mm . industrial designer: if you have a telewest box you 've got like , you do n't have to buy all the channels , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: you 've about fifty channels , can you imagine trying to . project manager: yeah marketing: yeah . project manager: okay okay industrial designer: um and i do n't think having that you know too quick too slow kin it 's confusing to the marketing: yeah , sure . project manager: um user interface: well , but then for um for skipping a large amount of channels you do have to uh to skip the channel button , the number part . marketing: mm . industrial designer: i dunno . but users tend to tend to want to use that project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and once they lose out on the user experience they 're like because that 's becomes the most accessible thing in front of project manager: okay . user interface: uh but project manager: okay . marketing: but that 's not a bad thing is it ? project manager: just marketing: because when you think about it , the alternative is to go push the button . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: jog dials are much easier than that . project manager: okay um right well would n't it marketing: you just roll . project manager: we do need to make a decision on whether we want to incorporate a jog dial in nice and quickly . um i 'm all for them actually , i think they 're quite you know th very quick to m to use . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: so does anybody oppose the idea of of incorporating one into the design at all ? no . and the other thing was um can we think of any way of getting the slogan into this thing ? marketing: yeah like i mean if we if if we keep coming back to this board here , project manager: uh-huh . marketing: i would n't be surprised if we could take this idea , imagine that , i dunno , that it 's within the shape of the hand , it 's quite small project manager: uh-huh ooh okay , we really got ta wrap up marketing: i dunno . project manager: so yeah . marketing: yeah . it 's small , and that we 've got like the the l slogan somewhere like on the casing at the side , project manager: okay well if we can do that , great . marketing: and that yeah project manager: yeah okay . marketing: well i mean is n't that what we just h said said we s just have to decide now ? project manager: yeah let 's let 's try and get the slogan on there um , and marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so you wan na expand the shape of the marketing: and then like a jo and then like a jog dial somewhere that fits in with the shape of it like i dunno like here , in with the industrial designer: that that might have one problem in terms of um in terms of whether you 're left handed or you 're right handed you might be locking yourself in . marketing: it would get bumped , it 's does n't really fit with your hand . project manager: mm . marketing: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: or maybe just fit it in like down the middle here . industrial designer: could i just could i just jump in and suggest something quickly ? project manager: okay . right i 'm gon na have to user interface: marketing: a jog di project manager: i 'm really gon na have to hurry you on here 'cause we 're we 're actually over time . marketing: yeah project manager: um is there anything anybody 's unsure about ? marketing: . it 's kind of yeah project manager: just for in closing just the next meeting 's gon na be in thirty minutes , and so you can see in the screen here what each of you are gon na hopefully be doing , uh i know that the designers are gon na be working with play-doh on that . marketing: yeah . project manager: so um that 'll be that 'll be good . marketing: huh . project manager: um and i 'll get the the minutes up as soon as possible . anything at all you think we have n't discussed that we need to ? is everybody kind of happy about what they 're gon na be doing ? marketing: um industrial designer: um i think one thing would be the jog dial 'cause that 's gon na have quite a big impact on the thing um marketing: yeah i think the jog dial , you know it just after you drew that , what if it was flat and you just spun it , industrial designer: yeah that 's what i was thinking the marketing: that 'd be great . industrial designer: a slide , because then you you do n't have to put the hand . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think incorporating a logo is quite straight forward . marketing: yep . project manager: okay . industrial designer: there 's lots of space for it um project manager: that 's kind of a design thing that you guys can can discuss , yeah . industrial designer: yeah but it 's also a a marketing and a function user interface: marketing: sure , yeah , project manager: okay . marketing: yeah and materials we sorta said we 'd do plastic and rubber , did n't we , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: and i think maybe we should try and stay away from just the big protruding rubber buttons , 'cause that 'd just be so standard . project manager: to make something flush with the case ? marketing: something a bit more flush , yeah , project manager: okay right . marketing: or maybe have rubber incorporated into the case as well , project manager: okay . marketing: so that it has and also t plastic i 've seen can get really textured , so you can get plastics that actually feel soft in your hand . project manager: sp kinda grippy ? industrial designer: feel like fruit . project manager: okay . industrial designer: fruits kids . user interface: marketing: they feel kind of like um , you get pens now and then that you 'd think that they were rubber but they 're not , industrial designer: no like yeah yeah . marketing: they 're actually just plastic that 's textured , industrial designer: yeah yeah kinda like that yeah . marketing: kind of a little bit like project manager: okay i 'm gon na have to i 'm gon na have to call this to a close 'cause we 're way over time . so um that 's really good , like we 've s had much to talk about that um pretty much run out of time to do so . marketing: okay . project manager: so off you go and design stuff marketing: okay . project manager: wooh . marketing: industrial designer: play-doh time . project manager: yeah quite jealous actually . industrial designer: you got to choose first . no , we 're kidding . marketing: industrial designer: okay , can i just swipe your power cable , i do n't think it matters . okay lem me okay , i 'm gon na pull everybody out first and then put in whoever needs to be left . it 's you . argh . this is a real hassle and a oops . i 'm gon na take the microphones , 'cause it 's too lazy t take them off again . cool .

because marketing recommended the group took some features of mac or ipod and made it a more comfortable type when associating people in terms of texture , shape , and colours . marketing also suggested they could incorporate gimmicky features that buttons would light up when touching the button .

summarize the decision discussion about remote concepts . </s> industrial designer: 's to do now is to decide how to fulfil what your stuff is , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so in that sense project manager: okay . marketing: yeah , sure . industrial designer: so it does kind of make sense , yeah . project manager: okay , well marketing: it kinda does make sense , does n't it , because when we get into the end of meeting we 're kind of talking about action and design as opposed to background . industrial designer: yep . project manager: okay . marketing: everything i have is kinda background . project manager: okay we all ready to go ? industrial designer: yep . project manager: well how um on the in this meeting then if we um i 'll just just recap on the minutes from the last meeting . and we uh decided on industrial designer: yep . project manager: decided on our our target group being fifteen to thirty five , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and we decided that it was gon na be non-rechargeable battery-powered , that we 're gon na group our audio-visual and other functions into into those categories , um . and i told you guys about the three new requirements about ignoring teletext , ignoring everything except the tv , and trying to incorporate the the uh corporate colour and slogan . um so that was the last meeting . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: is there anything have i forgotten anything ? industrial designer: no . project manager: is that everything ? marketing: uh that sounds . project manager: okay . um so if we have the three presentations , and then if you have anything to kind of that you know you 're gon na want to discuss , maybe just make a note of it , and we 'll have all the discussion at the end . that might be a better idea this time . marketing: sure . project manager: and so if we start off uh with andrew and then craig and then david , marketing: okay . project manager: if that 's alright . marketing: sure . industrial designer: yep . project manager: um and then after that we 'll have to make some decisions about stuff , right . marketing: yeah , cool . project manager: so if you wan na take this . marketing: why do n't i get that ? hmm . project manager: screwed in quite tightly . uh what did uh how did we leave it with speech recognition now ? we did we say we were gon na try maybe incorporate it but we had n't made a definite decision on that ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: right . oh i should also point out that um the you know the kind of final objective of this meeting is to reach a decision on the concepts of the product . marketing: okay . project manager: so um that 's kind of the end result hopefully . marketing: okay . um alright so c is it function f_ eight ? project manager: uh-huh . hopefully appear in a wee second . marketing: hmm . come on . i think it 's working . project manager: up there we go . marketing: okay great s so let me just start this . okay great . so um uh s move on . uh-huh oh where 'd it all go ? project manager: oh no . marketing: it 's not good . okay lem me just see where i can find it . this looks more like it . i think i just opened up the template . project manager: oh right . marketing: sorry about that . okay alright so let 's have a look here . project manager: here we go . marketing: okay so this was the method that um i 've taken . uh basically what i wan na do here , before we get into it uh too far , is i want to show you all the background information i have that i think we need to acknowledge if we want this to be successful . project manager: okay . marketing: and uh and then sorta g go through some of the way that i 've dealt with that information , and then sort of bring us all together into it to see sorta see how this fits in with the overall vision . um so i 've tried to take a whole lot of market research and summarise it for us , and then ide identify uh trends that are are sort of in sync and are important to our our uh p project plan that we have so far , and then uh initiate a kind of discussion on design options so that it sorta helps us to to narrow in on on aspects that will inform other uh other elements of the of the project . does that make sense , tha that sort of strategy ? industrial designer: yep . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: i thought that that will impact on the rest of what we do , so that 's why i suggested we get in this . project manager: aye a fair point definitely . marketing: okay so out of um different uh figures and ratings ob uh of people in general , um consumers in general , the number one thing that was found was that uh the br t television remote control , a fancy look and feel , okay , and not , it specified , not a functional look or or feel , uh b f f fancy . project manager: okay . marketing: um however , this is where we kinda have to be very , i think , creative about it . number two was that it be innovative . okay so that tells me that we have to find a way to be innovative without a adding just unnecessary um sort of functional bits to it . uh and third priority uh for ease of use , so again that kind of gives us a general picture of how it has to be , um quite user friendly while still having technology . so it i 'll just say right away as a bit of a foreshadowing into how we proceed with this in terms of m marketing , is that i think um what we should think about is how the um about how the innovation uh contributes to the look and feel , and not so much to the functionality of it . project manager: aye right . marketing: for example like when you pick it up and push it like it all lights up or something , you know what i mean , like , or it 's got something else to it that just seems innovative project manager: uh-huh . marketing: because obviously the thing that the message here is ease of use . so how do you make innovation make something more more easy to use ? well that 's i guess where we 're gon na go with this . project manager: okay . marketing: okay then there 's the other aspect of the back the the market um research i have here is on fashion style , okay , which as we 've agreed is a priority . uh top european fashion trend um that i read about says there 's this emerging theme of fruit and vegetables , okay , industrial designer: project manager: marketing: especially in clothes and furniture . and when i first saw that i thought hmm , well do we want to actually try and think about this trend and how we add something to it , or we get right into it , or we completely steer away from it , project manager: okay okay . marketing: do you know what i mean ? so my my feeling is that we w do want to observe this trend , but we want to think also about the fact that it sort of has to fit in with something which is not specifically electronics . um 'cause i think what we 're in what we 're in is partly sort of home decor , partly something like a computer , um so i think we might wan na be careful about how you know how quickly we create like a remote control in the shape of an apple or something , project manager: marketing: i think that would be pushing it . industrial designer: marketing: and then in terms of m material trends are for things to be soft and spongy and sort of , you might say ergonomic or or friendly to handle , which is which also in indicated that last year this was this was not the case . so um probably a lot of the competition on the market will be still in last year 's mode , so if we try and really capitalise on that , i think that 'll be in our favour . um so these this is the summary of everything . um style is number one uh thing in the in the market of who we 're selling to . uh innovative design technology 's also a must in that it 's seen it 'd be seen to be uh cutting edge , uh but ease of use t has to be insured throughout . that was like the number three thing . and then at the end there are vibrant natural colours um that 's the way i interpreted it anyway , softness in materials , shape , and function , and so i 've written at written at the bottom to give us sort of a context of discussion , mac ipods , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: something which is , i 'd have to say very high-tech , ten gigabytes , whatever , but when you hold it in your hand there 's like no buttons . project manager: mm that 's true , yeah . marketing: you know what a mac ipod is ? i 'm thinking however mac ipod is sort of last year 's because it 's very hard and sort of glassy and glossy , so i 'm thinking if we imagine that we 're taking some of the features of a mac ipod and we 're then making it s more of like a more of like a comfortable type of or more of like a maybe more vibrant to friendly thing to have . um and then so this is w with all that information what i 'm what i 'm suggesting in this slide here is that we we take these ideas , and as we get into more the more um techni like sort of production side of things , that we think about shape , materials , and themes or series that go throughout . sort of like a i dunno like um we think of some kind of a thin theme that unifies it all , that we agree on , uh sorta like a marketing identity . um does that make sense ? yeah . so so like i threw out a few ideas there just to kinda get us thinking along those lines like lemon , lime , i dunno , green colours , pe whatever , it 's just an idea , 'cause i 'm thinking that some of these ideas will seem quite coherent if we use them in terms of their what people associate this them with in terms of texture , shape , colours , things like that . project manager: mm 'kay . great . marketing: like um the ones the ones which i 'm most fond of in terms of giving like a theme to it would be like um like lemon or something like that , you know something which is , like you see a lot in in other areas . like i see lots of websites and things that seem to associate with like lemon and lime and project manager: okay . marketing: so anyway it 's just just an idea . project manager: yeah . marketing: i 'm thinking maybe we could incorporate some of these features into a fairly um into something which is which seems to have something to it which is almost gimmicky because like um like something to do with like lighting within it . like you know just within the simple sense , when you pick up a phone and touch a button it uh lights up , q usually the buttons light up . project manager: ah . marketing: how can we build on that ? maybe like it could light up in different colours or something or or people could buy the buy the control and then it comes with different like covers or something so . project manager: okay . marketing: anyway those are that 's all i have , project manager: that 's great . marketing: but uh hopefully we can we can revisit those ideas when we get into project manager: uh-huh . okay great . marketing: project manager: um thank you for that . uh craig do you wan na marketing: yep . project manager: uh plug yours in then ? user interface: is it working ? project manager: mm . not quite . marketing: did you press f_ eight ? industrial designer: it 's probably not sending . yeah . project manager: oh something coming now , yeah . marketing: industrial designer: yep , there it is . project manager: there we go . user interface: and so think of this concept . um to research it i 've um had a look on the the homepage again . it 's provided me with more examples of um previously existing c remote controls . um there 's a wee bit of discussion about the other existing ones there , um so i 've taken the um suggestions from them and tried to incorporate them into this um so then this we 're looking for um suggestions on size th um size of control and the buttons , um the shape of the control , and whereabout the buttons should be located on the control . project manager: mm . user interface: um what i found from the research is that most the current controls are just basically big bricks with loads of buttons all over them . um they 're not very attractive to look at , and they 're not very comfortable to hold , they 're i just hold 'em like big bricks , and they 're very easily lost . um they tend to be very dark colours , so if there are shadowy places down the side of couches you ca n't really see them . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um the the controls themselves tend to use a very inconsistent colour scheme . um for instance , the stand-by button is n't always red , uh it really should be . it 's uh something the user then uh identify with . this is a red switch off , that 's how it should be . um i 'm not sure if there 's any other examples of that , but something to look out for . um there 's a problem that i 've i 've got couple of preferences for the the end control um i get 'em with the the red colour button for stand-by and s the other examples of that um the buttons should be large . they should n't be tiny little things like you get on some mobile phones . they should be easy to press , very comfortable . um one of the examples given on the homepage was um there 's an up and down volume button but both of them have a v_ on them , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so the up volume button looks like it should be a down volume button , that 's kinda confusing . um should avoid s things like that . um if the the corporate colour scheme allows it we should have a very bright colour so that it can be easily identified anywhere . project manager: okay . user interface: um obviously trying trying to avoid being tacky there , but it could um tie-in very easily with your your lime and lemon idea . marketing: yeah . okay , do we have a corporate colour scheme ? project manager: i think it 's yellow marketing: i did n't know . project manager: because like the website is yellow and there 's a band at the bottom is yellow , marketing: okay . industrial designer: and the play-doh 's yellow . project manager: so yellow , lemon , you know definitely food for thought there , marketing: okay . user interface: fantastic . project manager: but keep going marketing: okay . project manager: and we 'll discuss it after . user interface: um marketing: yeah . user interface: any extra features we add beyond the basic ones should be m hidden , they should n't be on the um should n't be visible without something be opened or some sort of special extra effort . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um if we did decide to go for voice activation there sh should always be a button as alternative , possibly hidden in the the opened up section um making that something is wrong with it or with somebody 's voice , maybe they got a cold or um we should definitely avoid the big square block look . that 's just wrong . project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and um we got an email uh from i think it 's the the research department , and they 've said th the voice control um can now talk back if you ask it a question . project manager: mm . user interface: so it sh it could be good to have them um confirm any action you take project manager: aye that 's a good idea , yeah . user interface: and possibility . right and these are problems i 've had with it . um i do n't know where the slogan should go , or really what the slogan is . i think it 's um , fashion into electronics . project manager: yeah . user interface: and we do n't know how flexible the colour scheme is . i mean you say you wanted the the corporate colours , but they do n't say you know if we can use any other colours at all or marketing: mm . project manager: okay . marketing: mm . industrial designer: cool . user interface: that 's it . project manager: okay . marketing: great . lots of good information there . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah that that was very good , industrial designer: mm 'kay um . project manager: and uh now with david . marketing: user interface: i think i 'm cool . marketing: it 's a shame the cable was n't just in the middle of the table , project manager: i know it 'd be handy , would n't it . user interface: marketing: huh ? just um industrial designer: oops . project manager: do y do you wan na sit in the the line of sight of this um industrial designer: yeah okay . let me just get this going first . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: ah there it is . project manager: marketing: it takes a second , does n't it ? industrial designer: 'kay , that should be it . okay um i guess the same thing again , i started with something very basic . marketing: industrial designer: so just so you guys have some idea of what 's involved in my process , um and then you can just work through it marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and we 'll either modify it or start from scratch um depending on what your needs are . um the components are exactly the same . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um i think , like what you guys said , um the most input that 's needed is basically in the user interface . the rest of the components um they do have an impact in terms of cost and complexity . um like you said time to market was a problem , um and how many components are physically in there in cost . and the power is basically a factor of that . um and the lower components , the power , the logic , the transmitter , and the infrared , um they affect you in terms of the size of your device , um and that would have some inte impact on how y i think more how you hold rather than um the actual use using the the remote control because um like we 've said we 've defined , like we only want the basic things that to be visible , and the rest of them we try to hide . so um you know it 's just a matter of working out space . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so i guess three things , um cost , um complexity , and the size . these are the three things that um will have an impact on you . so just go through it in the components . um these are the options that are available to you , um i 'm not very sure about the voice thing 'cause i got another email and it was in fact quite sketchy on what n the voice options are . user interface: right . industrial designer: um it said it could talk to you , but it never said anything about being able to listen . i it said something about a sensor but never clarified that . marketing: mm . industrial designer: so maybe if you project manager: hmm . industrial designer: well i could see the other email that they sent you , um 'cause they got back to me with like different requirements , or different offerings of what components availa okay so your basic components are buttons , user interface: right . industrial designer: okay and you have a wheel available , like a mouse scroll wheel , project manager: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: okay there 's an lcd display , marketing: industrial designer: um i think these are quite standard things . marketing: they 're standard , are n't they ? industrial designer: no um they 're well in the sense that these are all the options available for you . i 'll explain to you the complexity and the cost thing again a bit later . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: okay um then there 's um how the case actually looks . it can actually be flat or it can be curved , um and then the different types of materials that you can use , um i do n't think you can use them in a combination , um but um project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i could check back for you , but i do n't think you can actually use them in a combination . project manager: we you could n't have like plastic and rubber ? industrial designer: um i think plastic and rubber would be fine , but plastic , rubber , and wood , i was n't i 'm not very sure about the titanium . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: they had some restrictions on using the rubber and the titanium . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: um the rubber was a restriction on the kind of power source you could use , project manager: mm 'kay . industrial designer: but the titanium had a different kind of things on the shape of the thing , project manager: okay . industrial designer: so i think that there is some restriction on um i think you could probably group plastic and rubber together , wood and titanium , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but you know it might be easier from a cost perspective and a complexity just to use one . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: you know as opposed to two . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and the other components are logic chips , um again i 'll i 'll go back to the component chips . the com how complex or how easy the logic is , it depends on how many functions you have on the on the unit um and that impacts cost . um i do n't think the logic chip has a issue about size 'cause they should be about the same size . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: power consumption should be about the same . um i think the main impact is complexity , marketing: hmm . industrial designer: um and the other thing is um the power options . um the first one is a standard battery . okay the second one i think is more of a gimmick then actually a useable thing , it 's a wind-up you know , a crank . project manager: i 'll clear one of these things for you . just by moving it yeah . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: yeah but that that might be something i think that 's more of a look and feel decision because i do n't think you can have one power source if you 're using the alternative power sources . i think whatever it is you still need a battery 'cause i do n't think anybody wants to keep doing one thing . project manager: mm . user interface: marketing: no . industrial designer: okay the other ones are a solar powered cell , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: which may not be a great idea in europe or any country that has seasons 'cause half the year you 'd be dead . user interface: industrial designer: so like what i said , you probably need like a battery and something else . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and the kinetic one i guess for me is the most interesting one project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: because it 's movement and people like to fiddle with their and it 's a nice sales gimmick i think . project manager: mm . industrial designer: from a marketing gimmick it it 's a technology thing , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it 's a shake it it does n't work , shake it , knock it or something . you know project manager: w yeah . industrial designer: you know marketing: hmm . industrial designer: you have you had those balls , you know those stress balls where you bounce the ball and it and it lights up and it goes , project manager: uh yeah yeah , i see . marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: industrial designer: you know that might be a gimmick combined with rubber . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: you know just to if you get frustrated wi remote control you can throw it , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: kind of you know just uh you know um so . um okay user interface: project manager: i know what you mean yeah . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: my from my role , i do n't think that personal preferences but role preferences , i think um something comfortable to hold , um small and slim marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i guess that 's more in the sense of small and slim in terms of comfortable not so small you ca n't , you know like a phone or something , too small phone . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and the other thing is from a production point of view um the less components we use and the simpler the components means you reduce your cost and you increase your profit . um and also the time to market and the complexity of developing designing and debugging it um so . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm mm-hmm mm-hmm . industrial designer: um okay let me just go back and talk about some of the restrictions . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um the user interface restrictions basically means that if you use more complicated features , like the buttons are standard okay , the lcd panel and the scroll wheel you need more complicated logic . um the case okay with a rubber case you ca n't have the solar panels . project manager: mm . industrial designer: okay with the titanium case , let me just check that um , marketing: industrial designer: titanium case ca n't be curved , it has to be square . project manager: okay . industrial designer: okay um there 's no restriction on the plastic , and marketing: it ca n't be curved . industrial designer: it ca n't be curved on the wood . marketing: okay . industrial designer: so that 's again , i do n't think you can use them in a combination , um especially the titanium project manager: okay . industrial designer: i i suspect they 're very fixed to a particular need . project manager: right . industrial designer: so um mixing them may not be a good idea um yep . that 's it . project manager: okay . right can i marketing: uh question on can i ask a question ? project manager: yeah well yeah it 's just i 'm quite keen to get the discussion going with the time we 've left so but yeah you c ask away . marketing: okay . can we uh power a light in this ? can we get a strong enough battery to power a light ? industrial designer: um i think we could because the lcd panel requires power , and the lcd is a form of a light project manager: mm . marketing: okay . industrial designer: so that marketing: so maybe one of the things we can just try and include is a really good battery . project manager: why what kind of light do you want are you thinking of ? marketing: well i mean i 'm thinking it might be that for uh this to be a high-tech thing it 's gon na have to have something high-tech about it project manager: uh-huh . yeah . marketing: and that 's gon na take battery power , and to make that to make that a realistic goal i think one of the issues that will come up later is , can the battery power it ? industrial designer: are you thinking are you thinking of of a light in the sense of um a light light , or a light in the sense of it glows kind of you know frankenstein , it 's alive . marketing: illuminate the buttons . yeah it glows . well m i 'm thinking along the lines of you 're you 're in the dark watching a d_v_d_ and you um you find the thing in the dark and you go like this , industrial designer: okay . marketing: and that 's what everybody does . oh where 's the volume button in the dark , industrial designer: okay . project manager: yeah yeah yeah . marketing: and uh y you just touch it , or you just pick it up , and it lights up or something . project manager: like a phone yeah , like the backlight in a phone . industrial designer: okay . marketing: like a phone , yeah yeah . project manager: okay cool . marketing: whereas with phones , people charge them once a week . project manager: yeah . marketing: we 're gon na need to put in a really good battery so people do n't have to charge their r remote control every few days . industrial designer: um that 's why i think the option of the the kinetic thing which basically means as long as you shake it like a watch , like an automatic watch project manager: mm . marketing: but are people gon na wan na shake their movie controller ? industrial designer: um it 's probably sensitive enough when you fiddle it . marketing: right . industrial designer: so you could trigger that to a light , project manager: mm . marketing: sure . industrial designer: like i said the bouncing ball thing , or you could trigger that to use that to power the light project manager: okay . industrial designer: as opposed to marketing: okay . industrial designer: so when they pick it up , right , and then that that sorta triggers the marketing: right . project manager: okay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: right industrial designer: glowingness . project manager: okay um well marketing: okay , great . project manager: let 's just go right back to the marketing ideas for a start , and just giving an id idea on the time , we 've got about fifteen minutes to play with at most . so um yeah so just t to bear in mind that the ultimate goal of this meeting is to reach an decision on the the the concepts of the product . marketing: okay . okay . project manager: so back to your idea about um incorporating the idea of like fruit and veg , and the corporate colour , and things like that . marketing: yeah . project manager: um i mean what does everybody think about marketing: yeah . project manager: does anybody have any ideas of about how we can fit all that in together ? i mean that 's kind of the user interface type of thing , what are your thoughts on that ? user interface: um i think we could go for like um maybe not a p a fruit shape but a very sort of curvy type shape . um you could have the same sort of texture and colour as a fruit . project manager: so maybe do y are we thinking something that like s could sit in your hand comfortably , or do you th you 'd hold onto comfortably or user interface: um probably something that s sits in your hand comfortably , sort of feels right in your hand . project manager: so something quite curvy ? okay um right okay . colour-wise i mean you made a re uh was it you or uh i ca n't remember who made the point about how if you 've a nice bright colour you 'll not lose it , was that industrial designer: i think he made that . project manager: whose user interface: marketing: what 's that ? project manager: about how if you have a bright colour you 'll not lose it so much . marketing: yeah . project manager: um and when the corporate colour is yellow , i mean maybe we could think about about the colour of the whole product being yellow i do n't know . um marketing: okay . project manager: and then obviously the uh the materials when it has anybody got like an overall picture in their mind about what what might work ? that 's all . marketing: well i mean i 'm thinking that what we need to do is have something that kind of unifies a lot of the different concepts , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and if we think that what we are w our number one marketing motive is um the look and feel . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so for the look and feel to seem coherent and not just sorta bits and bits and pieces of of concept and technology or or whatever or fashion , then we should have it kind of come back to one thing that we kind of all sorta can visualize . um maybe what we could do is t th think about a concept which touches b back to the on the um the colour , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: you said company colour yellow . i mean if we think of something , like i was saying also lime and lemon you know , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: what can we come up with something where we we try and associate it with with like the series . we just come up with something like that we kind of use it as a theme to inspire the project manager: okay . marketing: shapes and things . project manager: right . industrial designer: is there a particular shape that you 're interested in ? like does marketing have any research on does it need to be long ? marketing: industrial designer: does it need with a square thing wha project manager: oh you know like in circular in shape or industrial designer: yeah 'cause that will n help narrow down the choice of marketing: yeah . project manager: choice of material yeah . industrial designer: like fruit . i 'm thinking fruits in my head , but that 's tacky . project manager: 'cause i i i was kinda thinking about as well you know how you get these shock resistant mobile phones , user interface: see i 'm project manager: and they 're plastic but then also have like rubber on the outside , and it kinda feels it feels kind of warmer to the touch . it feels a bit more comfortable , and maybe we could incorporate plastic and rubber into it . and then then we could have curved shapes , 'cause wood or titanium , yeah , it 's gon na have to be boxy and rectangular and i think we might be moving away from that you know so um well i 'm do we really want it in like the shape of a lemon or marketing: no no no not at all . project manager: no i do n't think we do either . marketing: it 's more more just that we we think about like what it is we 're trying to achieve , so and then we have one one sorta theme that we stick with . project manager: okay right well um marketing: do you know what i mean ? project manager: so thoughts about the actual shape of the thing . user interface: i 'd quite like a sort of uh snowman type shape . project manager: a snowman shape ? user interface: um so a p sort of larger bit sits in your hand , and then you got maybe another bubble at the top for just any other function you need . project manager: uh-huh . that 's quite a distinctive shape , marketing: right , project manager: that would be good marketing: sure . project manager: would n't it . yeah marketing: yeah . project manager: so yeah should we go with that ? marketing: um can we yeah like to and wha like do you have a project manager: do you wan na draw it on the board ? user interface: marketing: can you like yeah just t we can visualize it . user interface: um something like that um you got two groups there um maybe it could fold up and you get a third group inside project manager: ooh that 'd be good . user interface: or uh you have volume controls about there . marketing: okay . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . yep . project manager: so call it the snowman-shape trademark . yeah that 's cool . um and i mean colour-wise what does everybody think ? i think it is quite important to get yellow in there somewhere . i mean do you want the whole thing yellow , maybe like yellow and white do you want something marketing: mm . user interface: so i reckon it 'd look quite nice if we just had um this here , had a sorta background yellow , marketing: project manager: uh-huh . user interface: and then have sort of a nice bold colour for the buttons . project manager: okay cool . um and also i mean how are we going to incorporate the slogan in ? the fact that it talks to you , i mean it might be quite cool if when you first start using it it says , what is it , putting fashion into electronics or something , i dunno . or when you like or if you turn it off or something if it can speak if it could actually say the slogan it might be a bit more powerful than just having it written on it somewhere . user interface: i think that might scare me . project manager: i d i d any thoughts on that at all ? user interface: i think that 'd probably scare me . you turn it on your control possessed s . project manager: i know . um unless an a i mean if you also would that work if we wanted to incorporate um an lcd display , where would we put that ? would we put that on the inside or industrial designer: do we need an lcd display ? user interface: um industrial designer: what what 's the functionality of that ? project manager: it 's bound to increase the cost of it a lot , i would 've thought . industrial designer: yeah but the question is what are we using it marketing: what would it achieve ? industrial designer: what would we what would we achieve from it ? putting in lights is cheap but putting in an lcd panel just to make it glow is a bit of a marketing: well l_c_ well i 'd when you used to mention the lcd i 'd think i wonder what that would be about . and the th the thing i could see it helping with would be if it was somehow connected with um listings . project manager: yeah . marketing: so as you scroll through , 'cause we said we might have a jog dial , so as you scroll through your stations you can y it actually tells you what it is . industrial designer: mm-hmm . i think that will be a problem because we do n't have an input device to get the listings into it , marketing: right , okay . industrial designer: so um it 's a bit nuts to get the monday tuesday wednesday you know . project manager: mm oh yeah that 's true . yeah . so so no need for an lcd display ? marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: um i i 'm not saying there 's no need for an lcd display , but um it 's what 's what what would it tell the user , project manager: i think that would make it very complex . industrial designer: 'cause the lcd tends to be an output as uh as opposed to an input so um does the remote control need to talk back to the user ? project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: mm not real industrial designer: we have the option of the speaker as well the sa the same thing goes for the speaker , is there a need for the remote control to to talk back ? marketing: project manager: i do n't know if there is really , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: nah . project manager: no um industrial designer: um project manager: i would say no need for a talk-back . uh does anybody disagree with that ? industrial designer: you could put a game on it . project manager: no ? marketing: no . user interface: marketing: project manager: easy . industrial designer: when the tv dies you can play with the remote control . project manager: okay um right marketing: mm mm . project manager: so you 're gon na have the three different sets of of functionalities , um i mean do you wan na group them into s head of the snowman , body of the snowman , inside of the snowman , is that what you 're thinking ? user interface: um well i think the advanced ones the the ones you do n't usually use could be hid inside . project manager: okay . user interface: b um i think the we had were fairly basic ones , they 'd have to go on the the front somewhere . project manager: okay right um what else do you need to talk about ? marketing: well i i was just industrial designer: where would you physically position the buttons ? um i think that that has some impact on on on many things . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um maybe you wan na draw onto the user interface: um marketing: yeah . project manager: so i 'm just gon na um pop this in here 'cause i have a slide about decision making which i 'd forgotten about . industrial designer: yep . project manager: oh sh god we 've got five minutes um okay uh back we go . um energy what do you think that 's suggesting we 're how we 're powering the thing ? i really like the idea of this kinetic thing where you 'd have the back-up of the battery , but have have kinetic power , marketing: yeah , sure . project manager: i mean what does anybody think about that ? marketing: um i 've had kinetic things before , and the the the one issue we need to keep in mind with them is that you 're committing the user to moving it , industrial designer: no , like i said we have a h hybrid kind of thing , so it 's not gon na charge the battery , it 's just marketing: and watches yeah sure , okay , right , okay . project manager: okay . marketing: support for it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i mean just it 's just worth pointing out because like i 've i 've known i 've known people to have kinetic watches that they wear all the time , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and it 's just like magic because it 's always powered and there 's no battery . i 've also known people to have things like like a jewellery watch they wear from time to time , and they eventually just say it 's just too much of a nuisance because i do n't wear it all the time . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yep . marketing: like remote control is similar , you 're away on vacation , i dunno whatever , you something , and it just starts to get worn down . project manager: yeah . well i suppose that if you 're if you 're away and you 're not using it , then you 're not using any power either . marketing: so we should think about project manager: so you 'd have the battery as the kind of to keep it ticking over idea marketing: yeah . project manager: i 'm really sorry we 're gon na have to wrap up quite quickly , we do n't have as much time as i thought . um so i think that 's what energy is referring to here . marketing: yep . project manager: chip on print , is that that 's an industrial design thing , is it david ? industrial designer: yes yes . project manager: okay um as for the case , kind of discussed that marketing: and this size here , i 'd suggest this be small , like quite small . project manager: yeah i know we 're gon na have like rubber buttons that feel kind of okay . user interface: yeah i think so yeah . marketing: um just a a lot of the um i mean one of the things running through my mind right now , i realise we 're being efficient to wrap up the meeting and have lots of decisions made , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um but we are leaning quite a bit to the side of being low-tech , rubber buttons plastic frame , it 's almost like we 're reproducing the same old remote control that 's out there . project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: should we think about how we are actually getting this high-tech user friendly uh um theme like what is it that we 're u we 're using to to achieve those goals ? project manager: could have things like backlighting the buttons and stuff like that . marketing: like okay so so backlighting , that would be good . industrial designer: or even a clear case . um you know a a glowing a a glowing yellow type case where the yellow is showable , marketing: yeah clear , project manager: aye that would be a good idea . marketing: okay . industrial designer: but in the dark it sort of , it 's alive . user interface: marketing: yeah sure . industrial designer: um in in a slight subtle way . project manager: s so like cur slightly transparent case , so it 's yellow , like tinted yellow , but you can maybe see through it . marketing: yeah that 'd be really good . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . or or there might be a light running through it like a mouse . project manager: is that what you mean ? industrial designer: you know you have cordless mice and they do n't eat that much power right . marketing: sure . industrial designer: so the power the battery in that sense , marketing: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: maybe you have one or two stratig strategically placed lights marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that sort of marketing: sure . yeah they they emanate a light through it . industrial designer: yeah project manager: okay . industrial designer: but because the case is transparent so it gives it a little bit of a glow , does n't make it freaky . project manager: lights . marketing: 'kay . yeah , project manager: okay . marketing: mm-hmm . um and then the other thing that we we 're s we 've committed ourselves to achieving is simplicity , and so i 'm thinking maybe should we try and think about having something like um some kind of an innovative concept about how the um the volume and the channels are controlled , 'cause that 's the main thing people will f wan na do . project manager: mm . marketing: could we use like a jog dial , like a nice just sort of round , somewhere on it where you just roll it ? industrial designer: the question is when you 're rolling it , how do you wan na roll it ? marketing: or industrial designer: do you want 'em to roll it like that ? do you want 'em to roll it like that ? 'cause in a mouse your hand 's in a position to roll it , project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: whereas the other thing about having it jog dial this way , it tends to get moved accidentally . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah if you are holding it in your hand you could you could do that , could n't you ? marketing: well why do n't we do it like a mouse then ? project manager: if you 're holding it in your hand you could industrial designer: that 's a very unnatural motion to project manager: do you think ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: can you imagine you have to scroll a lot . um it might work for volume , and maybe some of the brightness controls and stuff like that , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but not for channels right . project manager: mm . industrial designer: if you have a telewest box you 've got like , you do n't have to buy all the channels , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: you 've about fifty channels , can you imagine trying to . project manager: yeah marketing: yeah . project manager: okay okay industrial designer: um and i do n't think having that you know too quick too slow kin it 's confusing to the marketing: yeah , sure . project manager: um user interface: well , but then for um for skipping a large amount of channels you do have to uh to skip the channel button , the number part . marketing: mm . industrial designer: i dunno . but users tend to tend to want to use that project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and once they lose out on the user experience they 're like because that 's becomes the most accessible thing in front of project manager: okay . user interface: uh but project manager: okay . marketing: but that 's not a bad thing is it ? project manager: just marketing: because when you think about it , the alternative is to go push the button . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: jog dials are much easier than that . project manager: okay um right well would n't it marketing: you just roll . project manager: we do need to make a decision on whether we want to incorporate a jog dial in nice and quickly . um i 'm all for them actually , i think they 're quite you know th very quick to m to use . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: so does anybody oppose the idea of of incorporating one into the design at all ? no . and the other thing was um can we think of any way of getting the slogan into this thing ? marketing: yeah like i mean if we if if we keep coming back to this board here , project manager: uh-huh . marketing: i would n't be surprised if we could take this idea , imagine that , i dunno , that it 's within the shape of the hand , it 's quite small project manager: uh-huh ooh okay , we really got ta wrap up marketing: i dunno . project manager: so yeah . marketing: yeah . it 's small , and that we 've got like the the l slogan somewhere like on the casing at the side , project manager: okay well if we can do that , great . marketing: and that yeah project manager: yeah okay . marketing: well i mean is n't that what we just h said said we s just have to decide now ? project manager: yeah let 's let 's try and get the slogan on there um , and marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so you wan na expand the shape of the marketing: and then like a jo and then like a jog dial somewhere that fits in with the shape of it like i dunno like here , in with the industrial designer: that that might have one problem in terms of um in terms of whether you 're left handed or you 're right handed you might be locking yourself in . marketing: it would get bumped , it 's does n't really fit with your hand . project manager: mm . marketing: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: or maybe just fit it in like down the middle here . industrial designer: could i just could i just jump in and suggest something quickly ? project manager: okay . right i 'm gon na have to user interface: marketing: a jog di project manager: i 'm really gon na have to hurry you on here 'cause we 're we 're actually over time . marketing: yeah project manager: um is there anything anybody 's unsure about ? marketing: . it 's kind of yeah project manager: just for in closing just the next meeting 's gon na be in thirty minutes , and so you can see in the screen here what each of you are gon na hopefully be doing , uh i know that the designers are gon na be working with play-doh on that . marketing: yeah . project manager: so um that 'll be that 'll be good . marketing: huh . project manager: um and i 'll get the the minutes up as soon as possible . anything at all you think we have n't discussed that we need to ? is everybody kind of happy about what they 're gon na be doing ? marketing: um industrial designer: um i think one thing would be the jog dial 'cause that 's gon na have quite a big impact on the thing um marketing: yeah i think the jog dial , you know it just after you drew that , what if it was flat and you just spun it , industrial designer: yeah that 's what i was thinking the marketing: that 'd be great . industrial designer: a slide , because then you you do n't have to put the hand . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think incorporating a logo is quite straight forward . marketing: yep . project manager: okay . industrial designer: there 's lots of space for it um project manager: that 's kind of a design thing that you guys can can discuss , yeah . industrial designer: yeah but it 's also a a marketing and a function user interface: marketing: sure , yeah , project manager: okay . marketing: yeah and materials we sorta said we 'd do plastic and rubber , did n't we , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: and i think maybe we should try and stay away from just the big protruding rubber buttons , 'cause that 'd just be so standard . project manager: to make something flush with the case ? marketing: something a bit more flush , yeah , project manager: okay right . marketing: or maybe have rubber incorporated into the case as well , project manager: okay . marketing: so that it has and also t plastic i 've seen can get really textured , so you can get plastics that actually feel soft in your hand . project manager: sp kinda grippy ? industrial designer: feel like fruit . project manager: okay . industrial designer: fruits kids . user interface: marketing: they feel kind of like um , you get pens now and then that you 'd think that they were rubber but they 're not , industrial designer: no like yeah yeah . marketing: they 're actually just plastic that 's textured , industrial designer: yeah yeah kinda like that yeah . marketing: kind of a little bit like project manager: okay i 'm gon na have to i 'm gon na have to call this to a close 'cause we 're way over time . so um that 's really good , like we 've s had much to talk about that um pretty much run out of time to do so . marketing: okay . project manager: so off you go and design stuff marketing: okay . project manager: wooh . marketing: industrial designer: play-doh time . project manager: yeah quite jealous actually . industrial designer: you got to choose first . no , we 're kidding . marketing: industrial designer: okay , can i just swipe your power cable , i do n't think it matters . okay lem me okay , i 'm gon na pull everybody out first and then put in whoever needs to be left . it 's you . argh . this is a real hassle and a oops . i 'm gon na take the microphones , 'cause it 's too lazy t take them off again . cool .

the group discussed the final remote concepts after three presentations . therefore , they decided to have a small-sized remote with the speaker , the power with the chip on print , a transparent case , and rubber incorporated into the case . however , they would not go for an lcd partly because they needed an input device instead of output and the cost would be added .

why did the group decide not to go for an lcd when discussing the remote concepts ? </s> industrial designer: 's to do now is to decide how to fulfil what your stuff is , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so in that sense project manager: okay . marketing: yeah , sure . industrial designer: so it does kind of make sense , yeah . project manager: okay , well marketing: it kinda does make sense , does n't it , because when we get into the end of meeting we 're kind of talking about action and design as opposed to background . industrial designer: yep . project manager: okay . marketing: everything i have is kinda background . project manager: okay we all ready to go ? industrial designer: yep . project manager: well how um on the in this meeting then if we um i 'll just just recap on the minutes from the last meeting . and we uh decided on industrial designer: yep . project manager: decided on our our target group being fifteen to thirty five , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and we decided that it was gon na be non-rechargeable battery-powered , that we 're gon na group our audio-visual and other functions into into those categories , um . and i told you guys about the three new requirements about ignoring teletext , ignoring everything except the tv , and trying to incorporate the the uh corporate colour and slogan . um so that was the last meeting . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: is there anything have i forgotten anything ? industrial designer: no . project manager: is that everything ? marketing: uh that sounds . project manager: okay . um so if we have the three presentations , and then if you have anything to kind of that you know you 're gon na want to discuss , maybe just make a note of it , and we 'll have all the discussion at the end . that might be a better idea this time . marketing: sure . project manager: and so if we start off uh with andrew and then craig and then david , marketing: okay . project manager: if that 's alright . marketing: sure . industrial designer: yep . project manager: um and then after that we 'll have to make some decisions about stuff , right . marketing: yeah , cool . project manager: so if you wan na take this . marketing: why do n't i get that ? hmm . project manager: screwed in quite tightly . uh what did uh how did we leave it with speech recognition now ? we did we say we were gon na try maybe incorporate it but we had n't made a definite decision on that ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: right . oh i should also point out that um the you know the kind of final objective of this meeting is to reach a decision on the concepts of the product . marketing: okay . project manager: so um that 's kind of the end result hopefully . marketing: okay . um alright so c is it function f_ eight ? project manager: uh-huh . hopefully appear in a wee second . marketing: hmm . come on . i think it 's working . project manager: up there we go . marketing: okay great s so let me just start this . okay great . so um uh s move on . uh-huh oh where 'd it all go ? project manager: oh no . marketing: it 's not good . okay lem me just see where i can find it . this looks more like it . i think i just opened up the template . project manager: oh right . marketing: sorry about that . okay alright so let 's have a look here . project manager: here we go . marketing: okay so this was the method that um i 've taken . uh basically what i wan na do here , before we get into it uh too far , is i want to show you all the background information i have that i think we need to acknowledge if we want this to be successful . project manager: okay . marketing: and uh and then sorta g go through some of the way that i 've dealt with that information , and then sort of bring us all together into it to see sorta see how this fits in with the overall vision . um so i 've tried to take a whole lot of market research and summarise it for us , and then ide identify uh trends that are are sort of in sync and are important to our our uh p project plan that we have so far , and then uh initiate a kind of discussion on design options so that it sorta helps us to to narrow in on on aspects that will inform other uh other elements of the of the project . does that make sense , tha that sort of strategy ? industrial designer: yep . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: i thought that that will impact on the rest of what we do , so that 's why i suggested we get in this . project manager: aye a fair point definitely . marketing: okay so out of um different uh figures and ratings ob uh of people in general , um consumers in general , the number one thing that was found was that uh the br t television remote control , a fancy look and feel , okay , and not , it specified , not a functional look or or feel , uh b f f fancy . project manager: okay . marketing: um however , this is where we kinda have to be very , i think , creative about it . number two was that it be innovative . okay so that tells me that we have to find a way to be innovative without a adding just unnecessary um sort of functional bits to it . uh and third priority uh for ease of use , so again that kind of gives us a general picture of how it has to be , um quite user friendly while still having technology . so it i 'll just say right away as a bit of a foreshadowing into how we proceed with this in terms of m marketing , is that i think um what we should think about is how the um about how the innovation uh contributes to the look and feel , and not so much to the functionality of it . project manager: aye right . marketing: for example like when you pick it up and push it like it all lights up or something , you know what i mean , like , or it 's got something else to it that just seems innovative project manager: uh-huh . marketing: because obviously the thing that the message here is ease of use . so how do you make innovation make something more more easy to use ? well that 's i guess where we 're gon na go with this . project manager: okay . marketing: okay then there 's the other aspect of the back the the market um research i have here is on fashion style , okay , which as we 've agreed is a priority . uh top european fashion trend um that i read about says there 's this emerging theme of fruit and vegetables , okay , industrial designer: project manager: marketing: especially in clothes and furniture . and when i first saw that i thought hmm , well do we want to actually try and think about this trend and how we add something to it , or we get right into it , or we completely steer away from it , project manager: okay okay . marketing: do you know what i mean ? so my my feeling is that we w do want to observe this trend , but we want to think also about the fact that it sort of has to fit in with something which is not specifically electronics . um 'cause i think what we 're in what we 're in is partly sort of home decor , partly something like a computer , um so i think we might wan na be careful about how you know how quickly we create like a remote control in the shape of an apple or something , project manager: marketing: i think that would be pushing it . industrial designer: marketing: and then in terms of m material trends are for things to be soft and spongy and sort of , you might say ergonomic or or friendly to handle , which is which also in indicated that last year this was this was not the case . so um probably a lot of the competition on the market will be still in last year 's mode , so if we try and really capitalise on that , i think that 'll be in our favour . um so these this is the summary of everything . um style is number one uh thing in the in the market of who we 're selling to . uh innovative design technology 's also a must in that it 's seen it 'd be seen to be uh cutting edge , uh but ease of use t has to be insured throughout . that was like the number three thing . and then at the end there are vibrant natural colours um that 's the way i interpreted it anyway , softness in materials , shape , and function , and so i 've written at written at the bottom to give us sort of a context of discussion , mac ipods , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: something which is , i 'd have to say very high-tech , ten gigabytes , whatever , but when you hold it in your hand there 's like no buttons . project manager: mm that 's true , yeah . marketing: you know what a mac ipod is ? i 'm thinking however mac ipod is sort of last year 's because it 's very hard and sort of glassy and glossy , so i 'm thinking if we imagine that we 're taking some of the features of a mac ipod and we 're then making it s more of like a more of like a comfortable type of or more of like a maybe more vibrant to friendly thing to have . um and then so this is w with all that information what i 'm what i 'm suggesting in this slide here is that we we take these ideas , and as we get into more the more um techni like sort of production side of things , that we think about shape , materials , and themes or series that go throughout . sort of like a i dunno like um we think of some kind of a thin theme that unifies it all , that we agree on , uh sorta like a marketing identity . um does that make sense ? yeah . so so like i threw out a few ideas there just to kinda get us thinking along those lines like lemon , lime , i dunno , green colours , pe whatever , it 's just an idea , 'cause i 'm thinking that some of these ideas will seem quite coherent if we use them in terms of their what people associate this them with in terms of texture , shape , colours , things like that . project manager: mm 'kay . great . marketing: like um the ones the ones which i 'm most fond of in terms of giving like a theme to it would be like um like lemon or something like that , you know something which is , like you see a lot in in other areas . like i see lots of websites and things that seem to associate with like lemon and lime and project manager: okay . marketing: so anyway it 's just just an idea . project manager: yeah . marketing: i 'm thinking maybe we could incorporate some of these features into a fairly um into something which is which seems to have something to it which is almost gimmicky because like um like something to do with like lighting within it . like you know just within the simple sense , when you pick up a phone and touch a button it uh lights up , q usually the buttons light up . project manager: ah . marketing: how can we build on that ? maybe like it could light up in different colours or something or or people could buy the buy the control and then it comes with different like covers or something so . project manager: okay . marketing: anyway those are that 's all i have , project manager: that 's great . marketing: but uh hopefully we can we can revisit those ideas when we get into project manager: uh-huh . okay great . marketing: project manager: um thank you for that . uh craig do you wan na marketing: yep . project manager: uh plug yours in then ? user interface: is it working ? project manager: mm . not quite . marketing: did you press f_ eight ? industrial designer: it 's probably not sending . yeah . project manager: oh something coming now , yeah . marketing: industrial designer: yep , there it is . project manager: there we go . user interface: and so think of this concept . um to research it i 've um had a look on the the homepage again . it 's provided me with more examples of um previously existing c remote controls . um there 's a wee bit of discussion about the other existing ones there , um so i 've taken the um suggestions from them and tried to incorporate them into this um so then this we 're looking for um suggestions on size th um size of control and the buttons , um the shape of the control , and whereabout the buttons should be located on the control . project manager: mm . user interface: um what i found from the research is that most the current controls are just basically big bricks with loads of buttons all over them . um they 're not very attractive to look at , and they 're not very comfortable to hold , they 're i just hold 'em like big bricks , and they 're very easily lost . um they tend to be very dark colours , so if there are shadowy places down the side of couches you ca n't really see them . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um the the controls themselves tend to use a very inconsistent colour scheme . um for instance , the stand-by button is n't always red , uh it really should be . it 's uh something the user then uh identify with . this is a red switch off , that 's how it should be . um i 'm not sure if there 's any other examples of that , but something to look out for . um there 's a problem that i 've i 've got couple of preferences for the the end control um i get 'em with the the red colour button for stand-by and s the other examples of that um the buttons should be large . they should n't be tiny little things like you get on some mobile phones . they should be easy to press , very comfortable . um one of the examples given on the homepage was um there 's an up and down volume button but both of them have a v_ on them , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so the up volume button looks like it should be a down volume button , that 's kinda confusing . um should avoid s things like that . um if the the corporate colour scheme allows it we should have a very bright colour so that it can be easily identified anywhere . project manager: okay . user interface: um obviously trying trying to avoid being tacky there , but it could um tie-in very easily with your your lime and lemon idea . marketing: yeah . okay , do we have a corporate colour scheme ? project manager: i think it 's yellow marketing: i did n't know . project manager: because like the website is yellow and there 's a band at the bottom is yellow , marketing: okay . industrial designer: and the play-doh 's yellow . project manager: so yellow , lemon , you know definitely food for thought there , marketing: okay . user interface: fantastic . project manager: but keep going marketing: okay . project manager: and we 'll discuss it after . user interface: um marketing: yeah . user interface: any extra features we add beyond the basic ones should be m hidden , they should n't be on the um should n't be visible without something be opened or some sort of special extra effort . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um if we did decide to go for voice activation there sh should always be a button as alternative , possibly hidden in the the opened up section um making that something is wrong with it or with somebody 's voice , maybe they got a cold or um we should definitely avoid the big square block look . that 's just wrong . project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and um we got an email uh from i think it 's the the research department , and they 've said th the voice control um can now talk back if you ask it a question . project manager: mm . user interface: so it sh it could be good to have them um confirm any action you take project manager: aye that 's a good idea , yeah . user interface: and possibility . right and these are problems i 've had with it . um i do n't know where the slogan should go , or really what the slogan is . i think it 's um , fashion into electronics . project manager: yeah . user interface: and we do n't know how flexible the colour scheme is . i mean you say you wanted the the corporate colours , but they do n't say you know if we can use any other colours at all or marketing: mm . project manager: okay . marketing: mm . industrial designer: cool . user interface: that 's it . project manager: okay . marketing: great . lots of good information there . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah that that was very good , industrial designer: mm 'kay um . project manager: and uh now with david . marketing: user interface: i think i 'm cool . marketing: it 's a shame the cable was n't just in the middle of the table , project manager: i know it 'd be handy , would n't it . user interface: marketing: huh ? just um industrial designer: oops . project manager: do y do you wan na sit in the the line of sight of this um industrial designer: yeah okay . let me just get this going first . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: ah there it is . project manager: marketing: it takes a second , does n't it ? industrial designer: 'kay , that should be it . okay um i guess the same thing again , i started with something very basic . marketing: industrial designer: so just so you guys have some idea of what 's involved in my process , um and then you can just work through it marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and we 'll either modify it or start from scratch um depending on what your needs are . um the components are exactly the same . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um i think , like what you guys said , um the most input that 's needed is basically in the user interface . the rest of the components um they do have an impact in terms of cost and complexity . um like you said time to market was a problem , um and how many components are physically in there in cost . and the power is basically a factor of that . um and the lower components , the power , the logic , the transmitter , and the infrared , um they affect you in terms of the size of your device , um and that would have some inte impact on how y i think more how you hold rather than um the actual use using the the remote control because um like we 've said we 've defined , like we only want the basic things that to be visible , and the rest of them we try to hide . so um you know it 's just a matter of working out space . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so i guess three things , um cost , um complexity , and the size . these are the three things that um will have an impact on you . so just go through it in the components . um these are the options that are available to you , um i 'm not very sure about the voice thing 'cause i got another email and it was in fact quite sketchy on what n the voice options are . user interface: right . industrial designer: um it said it could talk to you , but it never said anything about being able to listen . i it said something about a sensor but never clarified that . marketing: mm . industrial designer: so maybe if you project manager: hmm . industrial designer: well i could see the other email that they sent you , um 'cause they got back to me with like different requirements , or different offerings of what components availa okay so your basic components are buttons , user interface: right . industrial designer: okay and you have a wheel available , like a mouse scroll wheel , project manager: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: okay there 's an lcd display , marketing: industrial designer: um i think these are quite standard things . marketing: they 're standard , are n't they ? industrial designer: no um they 're well in the sense that these are all the options available for you . i 'll explain to you the complexity and the cost thing again a bit later . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: okay um then there 's um how the case actually looks . it can actually be flat or it can be curved , um and then the different types of materials that you can use , um i do n't think you can use them in a combination , um but um project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i could check back for you , but i do n't think you can actually use them in a combination . project manager: we you could n't have like plastic and rubber ? industrial designer: um i think plastic and rubber would be fine , but plastic , rubber , and wood , i was n't i 'm not very sure about the titanium . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: they had some restrictions on using the rubber and the titanium . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: um the rubber was a restriction on the kind of power source you could use , project manager: mm 'kay . industrial designer: but the titanium had a different kind of things on the shape of the thing , project manager: okay . industrial designer: so i think that there is some restriction on um i think you could probably group plastic and rubber together , wood and titanium , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but you know it might be easier from a cost perspective and a complexity just to use one . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: you know as opposed to two . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and the other components are logic chips , um again i 'll i 'll go back to the component chips . the com how complex or how easy the logic is , it depends on how many functions you have on the on the unit um and that impacts cost . um i do n't think the logic chip has a issue about size 'cause they should be about the same size . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: power consumption should be about the same . um i think the main impact is complexity , marketing: hmm . industrial designer: um and the other thing is um the power options . um the first one is a standard battery . okay the second one i think is more of a gimmick then actually a useable thing , it 's a wind-up you know , a crank . project manager: i 'll clear one of these things for you . just by moving it yeah . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: yeah but that that might be something i think that 's more of a look and feel decision because i do n't think you can have one power source if you 're using the alternative power sources . i think whatever it is you still need a battery 'cause i do n't think anybody wants to keep doing one thing . project manager: mm . user interface: marketing: no . industrial designer: okay the other ones are a solar powered cell , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: which may not be a great idea in europe or any country that has seasons 'cause half the year you 'd be dead . user interface: industrial designer: so like what i said , you probably need like a battery and something else . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and the kinetic one i guess for me is the most interesting one project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: because it 's movement and people like to fiddle with their and it 's a nice sales gimmick i think . project manager: mm . industrial designer: from a marketing gimmick it it 's a technology thing , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it 's a shake it it does n't work , shake it , knock it or something . you know project manager: w yeah . industrial designer: you know marketing: hmm . industrial designer: you have you had those balls , you know those stress balls where you bounce the ball and it and it lights up and it goes , project manager: uh yeah yeah , i see . marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: industrial designer: you know that might be a gimmick combined with rubber . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: you know just to if you get frustrated wi remote control you can throw it , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: kind of you know just uh you know um so . um okay user interface: project manager: i know what you mean yeah . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: my from my role , i do n't think that personal preferences but role preferences , i think um something comfortable to hold , um small and slim marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i guess that 's more in the sense of small and slim in terms of comfortable not so small you ca n't , you know like a phone or something , too small phone . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and the other thing is from a production point of view um the less components we use and the simpler the components means you reduce your cost and you increase your profit . um and also the time to market and the complexity of developing designing and debugging it um so . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm mm-hmm mm-hmm . industrial designer: um okay let me just go back and talk about some of the restrictions . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um the user interface restrictions basically means that if you use more complicated features , like the buttons are standard okay , the lcd panel and the scroll wheel you need more complicated logic . um the case okay with a rubber case you ca n't have the solar panels . project manager: mm . industrial designer: okay with the titanium case , let me just check that um , marketing: industrial designer: titanium case ca n't be curved , it has to be square . project manager: okay . industrial designer: okay um there 's no restriction on the plastic , and marketing: it ca n't be curved . industrial designer: it ca n't be curved on the wood . marketing: okay . industrial designer: so that 's again , i do n't think you can use them in a combination , um especially the titanium project manager: okay . industrial designer: i i suspect they 're very fixed to a particular need . project manager: right . industrial designer: so um mixing them may not be a good idea um yep . that 's it . project manager: okay . right can i marketing: uh question on can i ask a question ? project manager: yeah well yeah it 's just i 'm quite keen to get the discussion going with the time we 've left so but yeah you c ask away . marketing: okay . can we uh power a light in this ? can we get a strong enough battery to power a light ? industrial designer: um i think we could because the lcd panel requires power , and the lcd is a form of a light project manager: mm . marketing: okay . industrial designer: so that marketing: so maybe one of the things we can just try and include is a really good battery . project manager: why what kind of light do you want are you thinking of ? marketing: well i mean i 'm thinking it might be that for uh this to be a high-tech thing it 's gon na have to have something high-tech about it project manager: uh-huh . yeah . marketing: and that 's gon na take battery power , and to make that to make that a realistic goal i think one of the issues that will come up later is , can the battery power it ? industrial designer: are you thinking are you thinking of of a light in the sense of um a light light , or a light in the sense of it glows kind of you know frankenstein , it 's alive . marketing: illuminate the buttons . yeah it glows . well m i 'm thinking along the lines of you 're you 're in the dark watching a d_v_d_ and you um you find the thing in the dark and you go like this , industrial designer: okay . marketing: and that 's what everybody does . oh where 's the volume button in the dark , industrial designer: okay . project manager: yeah yeah yeah . marketing: and uh y you just touch it , or you just pick it up , and it lights up or something . project manager: like a phone yeah , like the backlight in a phone . industrial designer: okay . marketing: like a phone , yeah yeah . project manager: okay cool . marketing: whereas with phones , people charge them once a week . project manager: yeah . marketing: we 're gon na need to put in a really good battery so people do n't have to charge their r remote control every few days . industrial designer: um that 's why i think the option of the the kinetic thing which basically means as long as you shake it like a watch , like an automatic watch project manager: mm . marketing: but are people gon na wan na shake their movie controller ? industrial designer: um it 's probably sensitive enough when you fiddle it . marketing: right . industrial designer: so you could trigger that to a light , project manager: mm . marketing: sure . industrial designer: like i said the bouncing ball thing , or you could trigger that to use that to power the light project manager: okay . industrial designer: as opposed to marketing: okay . industrial designer: so when they pick it up , right , and then that that sorta triggers the marketing: right . project manager: okay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: right industrial designer: glowingness . project manager: okay um well marketing: okay , great . project manager: let 's just go right back to the marketing ideas for a start , and just giving an id idea on the time , we 've got about fifteen minutes to play with at most . so um yeah so just t to bear in mind that the ultimate goal of this meeting is to reach an decision on the the the concepts of the product . marketing: okay . okay . project manager: so back to your idea about um incorporating the idea of like fruit and veg , and the corporate colour , and things like that . marketing: yeah . project manager: um i mean what does everybody think about marketing: yeah . project manager: does anybody have any ideas of about how we can fit all that in together ? i mean that 's kind of the user interface type of thing , what are your thoughts on that ? user interface: um i think we could go for like um maybe not a p a fruit shape but a very sort of curvy type shape . um you could have the same sort of texture and colour as a fruit . project manager: so maybe do y are we thinking something that like s could sit in your hand comfortably , or do you th you 'd hold onto comfortably or user interface: um probably something that s sits in your hand comfortably , sort of feels right in your hand . project manager: so something quite curvy ? okay um right okay . colour-wise i mean you made a re uh was it you or uh i ca n't remember who made the point about how if you 've a nice bright colour you 'll not lose it , was that industrial designer: i think he made that . project manager: whose user interface: marketing: what 's that ? project manager: about how if you have a bright colour you 'll not lose it so much . marketing: yeah . project manager: um and when the corporate colour is yellow , i mean maybe we could think about about the colour of the whole product being yellow i do n't know . um marketing: okay . project manager: and then obviously the uh the materials when it has anybody got like an overall picture in their mind about what what might work ? that 's all . marketing: well i mean i 'm thinking that what we need to do is have something that kind of unifies a lot of the different concepts , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and if we think that what we are w our number one marketing motive is um the look and feel . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so for the look and feel to seem coherent and not just sorta bits and bits and pieces of of concept and technology or or whatever or fashion , then we should have it kind of come back to one thing that we kind of all sorta can visualize . um maybe what we could do is t th think about a concept which touches b back to the on the um the colour , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: you said company colour yellow . i mean if we think of something , like i was saying also lime and lemon you know , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: what can we come up with something where we we try and associate it with with like the series . we just come up with something like that we kind of use it as a theme to inspire the project manager: okay . marketing: shapes and things . project manager: right . industrial designer: is there a particular shape that you 're interested in ? like does marketing have any research on does it need to be long ? marketing: industrial designer: does it need with a square thing wha project manager: oh you know like in circular in shape or industrial designer: yeah 'cause that will n help narrow down the choice of marketing: yeah . project manager: choice of material yeah . industrial designer: like fruit . i 'm thinking fruits in my head , but that 's tacky . project manager: 'cause i i i was kinda thinking about as well you know how you get these shock resistant mobile phones , user interface: see i 'm project manager: and they 're plastic but then also have like rubber on the outside , and it kinda feels it feels kind of warmer to the touch . it feels a bit more comfortable , and maybe we could incorporate plastic and rubber into it . and then then we could have curved shapes , 'cause wood or titanium , yeah , it 's gon na have to be boxy and rectangular and i think we might be moving away from that you know so um well i 'm do we really want it in like the shape of a lemon or marketing: no no no not at all . project manager: no i do n't think we do either . marketing: it 's more more just that we we think about like what it is we 're trying to achieve , so and then we have one one sorta theme that we stick with . project manager: okay right well um marketing: do you know what i mean ? project manager: so thoughts about the actual shape of the thing . user interface: i 'd quite like a sort of uh snowman type shape . project manager: a snowman shape ? user interface: um so a p sort of larger bit sits in your hand , and then you got maybe another bubble at the top for just any other function you need . project manager: uh-huh . that 's quite a distinctive shape , marketing: right , project manager: that would be good marketing: sure . project manager: would n't it . yeah marketing: yeah . project manager: so yeah should we go with that ? marketing: um can we yeah like to and wha like do you have a project manager: do you wan na draw it on the board ? user interface: marketing: can you like yeah just t we can visualize it . user interface: um something like that um you got two groups there um maybe it could fold up and you get a third group inside project manager: ooh that 'd be good . user interface: or uh you have volume controls about there . marketing: okay . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . yep . project manager: so call it the snowman-shape trademark . yeah that 's cool . um and i mean colour-wise what does everybody think ? i think it is quite important to get yellow in there somewhere . i mean do you want the whole thing yellow , maybe like yellow and white do you want something marketing: mm . user interface: so i reckon it 'd look quite nice if we just had um this here , had a sorta background yellow , marketing: project manager: uh-huh . user interface: and then have sort of a nice bold colour for the buttons . project manager: okay cool . um and also i mean how are we going to incorporate the slogan in ? the fact that it talks to you , i mean it might be quite cool if when you first start using it it says , what is it , putting fashion into electronics or something , i dunno . or when you like or if you turn it off or something if it can speak if it could actually say the slogan it might be a bit more powerful than just having it written on it somewhere . user interface: i think that might scare me . project manager: i d i d any thoughts on that at all ? user interface: i think that 'd probably scare me . you turn it on your control possessed s . project manager: i know . um unless an a i mean if you also would that work if we wanted to incorporate um an lcd display , where would we put that ? would we put that on the inside or industrial designer: do we need an lcd display ? user interface: um industrial designer: what what 's the functionality of that ? project manager: it 's bound to increase the cost of it a lot , i would 've thought . industrial designer: yeah but the question is what are we using it marketing: what would it achieve ? industrial designer: what would we what would we achieve from it ? putting in lights is cheap but putting in an lcd panel just to make it glow is a bit of a marketing: well l_c_ well i 'd when you used to mention the lcd i 'd think i wonder what that would be about . and the th the thing i could see it helping with would be if it was somehow connected with um listings . project manager: yeah . marketing: so as you scroll through , 'cause we said we might have a jog dial , so as you scroll through your stations you can y it actually tells you what it is . industrial designer: mm-hmm . i think that will be a problem because we do n't have an input device to get the listings into it , marketing: right , okay . industrial designer: so um it 's a bit nuts to get the monday tuesday wednesday you know . project manager: mm oh yeah that 's true . yeah . so so no need for an lcd display ? marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: um i i 'm not saying there 's no need for an lcd display , but um it 's what 's what what would it tell the user , project manager: i think that would make it very complex . industrial designer: 'cause the lcd tends to be an output as uh as opposed to an input so um does the remote control need to talk back to the user ? project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: mm not real industrial designer: we have the option of the speaker as well the sa the same thing goes for the speaker , is there a need for the remote control to to talk back ? marketing: project manager: i do n't know if there is really , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: nah . project manager: no um industrial designer: um project manager: i would say no need for a talk-back . uh does anybody disagree with that ? industrial designer: you could put a game on it . project manager: no ? marketing: no . user interface: marketing: project manager: easy . industrial designer: when the tv dies you can play with the remote control . project manager: okay um right marketing: mm mm . project manager: so you 're gon na have the three different sets of of functionalities , um i mean do you wan na group them into s head of the snowman , body of the snowman , inside of the snowman , is that what you 're thinking ? user interface: um well i think the advanced ones the the ones you do n't usually use could be hid inside . project manager: okay . user interface: b um i think the we had were fairly basic ones , they 'd have to go on the the front somewhere . project manager: okay right um what else do you need to talk about ? marketing: well i i was just industrial designer: where would you physically position the buttons ? um i think that that has some impact on on on many things . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um maybe you wan na draw onto the user interface: um marketing: yeah . project manager: so i 'm just gon na um pop this in here 'cause i have a slide about decision making which i 'd forgotten about . industrial designer: yep . project manager: oh sh god we 've got five minutes um okay uh back we go . um energy what do you think that 's suggesting we 're how we 're powering the thing ? i really like the idea of this kinetic thing where you 'd have the back-up of the battery , but have have kinetic power , marketing: yeah , sure . project manager: i mean what does anybody think about that ? marketing: um i 've had kinetic things before , and the the the one issue we need to keep in mind with them is that you 're committing the user to moving it , industrial designer: no , like i said we have a h hybrid kind of thing , so it 's not gon na charge the battery , it 's just marketing: and watches yeah sure , okay , right , okay . project manager: okay . marketing: support for it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: i mean just it 's just worth pointing out because like i 've i 've known i 've known people to have kinetic watches that they wear all the time , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and it 's just like magic because it 's always powered and there 's no battery . i 've also known people to have things like like a jewellery watch they wear from time to time , and they eventually just say it 's just too much of a nuisance because i do n't wear it all the time . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yep . marketing: like remote control is similar , you 're away on vacation , i dunno whatever , you something , and it just starts to get worn down . project manager: yeah . well i suppose that if you 're if you 're away and you 're not using it , then you 're not using any power either . marketing: so we should think about project manager: so you 'd have the battery as the kind of to keep it ticking over idea marketing: yeah . project manager: i 'm really sorry we 're gon na have to wrap up quite quickly , we do n't have as much time as i thought . um so i think that 's what energy is referring to here . marketing: yep . project manager: chip on print , is that that 's an industrial design thing , is it david ? industrial designer: yes yes . project manager: okay um as for the case , kind of discussed that marketing: and this size here , i 'd suggest this be small , like quite small . project manager: yeah i know we 're gon na have like rubber buttons that feel kind of okay . user interface: yeah i think so yeah . marketing: um just a a lot of the um i mean one of the things running through my mind right now , i realise we 're being efficient to wrap up the meeting and have lots of decisions made , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um but we are leaning quite a bit to the side of being low-tech , rubber buttons plastic frame , it 's almost like we 're reproducing the same old remote control that 's out there . project manager: mm 'kay . marketing: should we think about how we are actually getting this high-tech user friendly uh um theme like what is it that we 're u we 're using to to achieve those goals ? project manager: could have things like backlighting the buttons and stuff like that . marketing: like okay so so backlighting , that would be good . industrial designer: or even a clear case . um you know a a glowing a a glowing yellow type case where the yellow is showable , marketing: yeah clear , project manager: aye that would be a good idea . marketing: okay . industrial designer: but in the dark it sort of , it 's alive . user interface: marketing: yeah sure . industrial designer: um in in a slight subtle way . project manager: s so like cur slightly transparent case , so it 's yellow , like tinted yellow , but you can maybe see through it . marketing: yeah that 'd be really good . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . or or there might be a light running through it like a mouse . project manager: is that what you mean ? industrial designer: you know you have cordless mice and they do n't eat that much power right . marketing: sure . industrial designer: so the power the battery in that sense , marketing: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: maybe you have one or two stratig strategically placed lights marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that sort of marketing: sure . yeah they they emanate a light through it . industrial designer: yeah project manager: okay . industrial designer: but because the case is transparent so it gives it a little bit of a glow , does n't make it freaky . project manager: lights . marketing: 'kay . yeah , project manager: okay . marketing: mm-hmm . um and then the other thing that we we 're s we 've committed ourselves to achieving is simplicity , and so i 'm thinking maybe should we try and think about having something like um some kind of an innovative concept about how the um the volume and the channels are controlled , 'cause that 's the main thing people will f wan na do . project manager: mm . marketing: could we use like a jog dial , like a nice just sort of round , somewhere on it where you just roll it ? industrial designer: the question is when you 're rolling it , how do you wan na roll it ? marketing: or industrial designer: do you want 'em to roll it like that ? do you want 'em to roll it like that ? 'cause in a mouse your hand 's in a position to roll it , project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: whereas the other thing about having it jog dial this way , it tends to get moved accidentally . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah if you are holding it in your hand you could you could do that , could n't you ? marketing: well why do n't we do it like a mouse then ? project manager: if you 're holding it in your hand you could industrial designer: that 's a very unnatural motion to project manager: do you think ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: can you imagine you have to scroll a lot . um it might work for volume , and maybe some of the brightness controls and stuff like that , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but not for channels right . project manager: mm . industrial designer: if you have a telewest box you 've got like , you do n't have to buy all the channels , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: you 've about fifty channels , can you imagine trying to . project manager: yeah marketing: yeah . project manager: okay okay industrial designer: um and i do n't think having that you know too quick too slow kin it 's confusing to the marketing: yeah , sure . project manager: um user interface: well , but then for um for skipping a large amount of channels you do have to uh to skip the channel button , the number part . marketing: mm . industrial designer: i dunno . but users tend to tend to want to use that project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and once they lose out on the user experience they 're like because that 's becomes the most accessible thing in front of project manager: okay . user interface: uh but project manager: okay . marketing: but that 's not a bad thing is it ? project manager: just marketing: because when you think about it , the alternative is to go push the button . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: jog dials are much easier than that . project manager: okay um right well would n't it marketing: you just roll . project manager: we do need to make a decision on whether we want to incorporate a jog dial in nice and quickly . um i 'm all for them actually , i think they 're quite you know th very quick to m to use . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: so does anybody oppose the idea of of incorporating one into the design at all ? no . and the other thing was um can we think of any way of getting the slogan into this thing ? marketing: yeah like i mean if we if if we keep coming back to this board here , project manager: uh-huh . marketing: i would n't be surprised if we could take this idea , imagine that , i dunno , that it 's within the shape of the hand , it 's quite small project manager: uh-huh ooh okay , we really got ta wrap up marketing: i dunno . project manager: so yeah . marketing: yeah . it 's small , and that we 've got like the the l slogan somewhere like on the casing at the side , project manager: okay well if we can do that , great . marketing: and that yeah project manager: yeah okay . marketing: well i mean is n't that what we just h said said we s just have to decide now ? project manager: yeah let 's let 's try and get the slogan on there um , and marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so you wan na expand the shape of the marketing: and then like a jo and then like a jog dial somewhere that fits in with the shape of it like i dunno like here , in with the industrial designer: that that might have one problem in terms of um in terms of whether you 're left handed or you 're right handed you might be locking yourself in . marketing: it would get bumped , it 's does n't really fit with your hand . project manager: mm . marketing: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: or maybe just fit it in like down the middle here . industrial designer: could i just could i just jump in and suggest something quickly ? project manager: okay . right i 'm gon na have to user interface: marketing: a jog di project manager: i 'm really gon na have to hurry you on here 'cause we 're we 're actually over time . marketing: yeah project manager: um is there anything anybody 's unsure about ? marketing: . it 's kind of yeah project manager: just for in closing just the next meeting 's gon na be in thirty minutes , and so you can see in the screen here what each of you are gon na hopefully be doing , uh i know that the designers are gon na be working with play-doh on that . marketing: yeah . project manager: so um that 'll be that 'll be good . marketing: huh . project manager: um and i 'll get the the minutes up as soon as possible . anything at all you think we have n't discussed that we need to ? is everybody kind of happy about what they 're gon na be doing ? marketing: um industrial designer: um i think one thing would be the jog dial 'cause that 's gon na have quite a big impact on the thing um marketing: yeah i think the jog dial , you know it just after you drew that , what if it was flat and you just spun it , industrial designer: yeah that 's what i was thinking the marketing: that 'd be great . industrial designer: a slide , because then you you do n't have to put the hand . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think incorporating a logo is quite straight forward . marketing: yep . project manager: okay . industrial designer: there 's lots of space for it um project manager: that 's kind of a design thing that you guys can can discuss , yeah . industrial designer: yeah but it 's also a a marketing and a function user interface: marketing: sure , yeah , project manager: okay . marketing: yeah and materials we sorta said we 'd do plastic and rubber , did n't we , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: and i think maybe we should try and stay away from just the big protruding rubber buttons , 'cause that 'd just be so standard . project manager: to make something flush with the case ? marketing: something a bit more flush , yeah , project manager: okay right . marketing: or maybe have rubber incorporated into the case as well , project manager: okay . marketing: so that it has and also t plastic i 've seen can get really textured , so you can get plastics that actually feel soft in your hand . project manager: sp kinda grippy ? industrial designer: feel like fruit . project manager: okay . industrial designer: fruits kids . user interface: marketing: they feel kind of like um , you get pens now and then that you 'd think that they were rubber but they 're not , industrial designer: no like yeah yeah . marketing: they 're actually just plastic that 's textured , industrial designer: yeah yeah kinda like that yeah . marketing: kind of a little bit like project manager: okay i 'm gon na have to i 'm gon na have to call this to a close 'cause we 're way over time . so um that 's really good , like we 've s had much to talk about that um pretty much run out of time to do so . marketing: okay . project manager: so off you go and design stuff marketing: okay . project manager: wooh . marketing: industrial designer: play-doh time . project manager: yeah quite jealous actually . industrial designer: you got to choose first . no , we 're kidding . marketing: industrial designer: okay , can i just swipe your power cable , i do n't think it matters . okay lem me okay , i 'm gon na pull everybody out first and then put in whoever needs to be left . it 's you . argh . this is a real hassle and a oops . i 'm gon na take the microphones , 'cause it 's too lazy t take them off again . cool .

when discussing the lcd functionality , the group found that it was not necessary to have it because they had the speaker and no need for a talk-back for the remote . also , the lcd tended to be output as opposed to an input and it would be added to the cost of the remote , so the group agreed not to go for an lcd .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: okay , well i think we 're ready to begin . right , my name 's adam duguid , we 're here because of real reaction , um , we have in the group marketing: oh , ebenezer ademesoye . would you like me to spell that ? project manager: um , yeah , marketing: s project manager: go for it mate . marketing: um , n_e_z_ project manager: n_ e_ z_ . marketing: e_r_ . project manager: ebenezer . and your role is ? marketing: i 'm the marketing expert . project manager: you 're the marketing expert , okay . next we have ? industrial designer: tarik rahman . t_a_r_i_k_ . project manager: t_ r_ i_ k_ . and your role in this is ? industrial designer: industrial designer . project manager: industrial designer . and , lastly we have ? user interface: uh , dave cochrane . project manager: and you 're going to be the user interface , user interface: user interface defin designer , yes . project manager: is it ? designer . okay . right . this is the agenda for today 's meeting . as you can see , w opening , acquaintance , tool training , project plan discussion , and closing . um , we already got n through opening , and partially through acquaintance . so , the reason we 're here , we 're gon na design a new remote control , as you probably all know . the very broad overview is original , trendy , and user-friendly . course , we 'll have to go into a bit more um detail than that , but uh personally i think that the original is gon na be a very key aspect to this design . um , there 's a lot of remote controls out there anyway , so we 're gon na need something that 's really gon na set it apart . this is how today seems to be going to work . we 're gon na have the three kay phases , as you 've probably already been told , the functional , architectural , and the detailed design . um first one 's gon na be covering the user requirement spec , technical functions , working design . second seems to be conceptual components , properties , materials , and the last one is a detailed analysis of our design so far . of course , you 've all got the similar emails , i believe , right . what can i say ? ebenezer , you wan na have a you wan na draw your favourite animal ? industrial designer: marketing: sure . whiteboard . 'kay . s okay . i will make this quick , since we do n't have much time . um . 'kay , so it 's not the best picture in the world . project manager: marketing: here we have an elephant . first point , begins with an e_ , same like ebenezer . also , elephants have a very good memory , much like myself , industrial designer: marketing: and i ca n't remember back when i used to live back in nigeria , but i think i used to have a pet elephant . so elephants are big , strong and gentle , and they have great memories , and they begin with the letter e_ , just like ebenezer . project manager: brilliantly done . thank you . marketing: thank you . project manager: tarik , would you like to have a shot at a bit of artistry ? industrial designer: . project manager: oh , um , marketing: oh . oh oh project manager: you can clip them to your belt . industrial designer: do we take them off ? marketing: i think you ga industrial designer: oh right , project manager: you should also l um have your the lapel mic on as well . industrial designer: okay . marketing: the little the the industrial designer: ah-ha . marketing: oh that 's good , we can clip them on . okay . yeah , industrial designer: now where do i put the marketing: just um somewhere project manager: yep , the , it 's just across there , that 's it . yep . industrial designer: is this supposed to be clipped as well ? project manager: yeah . marketing: i think so . project manager: it 'll follow you if you marketing: yeah . there you go . project manager: you can probably just stick it in your pocket for now , i would n't worry too much . should have good range . industrial designer: uh , destroying your elephant here . marketing: project manager: industrial designer: uh , here we have a tiger . uh i 've always loved tigers . they 're just they 're big , they 're biggest cats , uh i did a project on cats in the wild when i was a kid and uh it was my favourite cat , just 'cause it was looks the best , the stripes , orange . my dad used to talk about he 's from bangladesh so he used to tell me all about them when he was when i was a kid . and uh they 're just the most feared of of uh animals in the wild . so uh that 's why i like them . did n't say an anything about me really but project manager: excellent , thank you very much . dave , if you 'd like to uh have a dash . user interface: um um , the monkey , um . the one f uh in fact this is a somewhat oblique reference in fact to uh well my i have a three uh three y year old daughter who h who who who is affectionately known as miss monkey . um , monkeys have attitude . which i think is a good thing . and i mean fr and from uh from the point of view of sort of the study of human evolution they and other primates are terribly interesting . um , so i like monkeys . and and th th th th thi thi this one seems to have perhaps more attitude than most . industrial designer: project manager: cheers . hardly what i 'd call the best drawing in the world but it 'll do for now . also not quite as feared as your average tiger , but uh cats are one of my favourite animals , they 're very independent , they 're snotty as hell at the best of times , and uh , what can you say , you got to love those qualities in an animal . right . i think we 've all managed to master the whiteboard there by looks of it , so , on to it . project finance . as you can see , twelve point five euros per unit . that 's not a terrible lot as far as i 'm aware , and we 're hoping to sell them for twenty five . if we 're aiming for fifty million euros we 're gon na have to be selling an awful lot of them . marketing: oh , that was profiting , that was an amount , so that 's the amount made , project manager: yep . marketing: okay . project manager: well , fifty million , and if you 're making twelve point five euros on each one , then , awful lot need to be sold . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . now we better actually just get on with the uh the meat of the project . so i 'm gon na guess that we 've all used remote controls . any ideas of where you think a new remote control could go into this market ? user interface: well , one thing i 'm aware of is , th there uh um at the sort of v very high price end of the market there 's there 's a em emerging market for sort of touch screen lcd remotes that can be uh programmed in m much more sophisticated ways than sort of conventional models , so you get the sort of you get um you you can redesign the interface to your own needs , you can programme in macros , and you get a much greater degree um um i mean you get in these sort of three in one , five in one , whatevers , but you can get integration between the different uh the the the diff the different things that it 's designed to control , to a much greater extent , and you can have one uh you know one macro to turn the uh you know turn the tv to the right channel , get the uh re uh rewind the tape in the v_c_r_ and get it to play once it 's rewound , for instance . project manager: okay . user interface: um b it occurs to me there might be a niche for uh for a remote that aimed towards some of that sort of functionality but using a just conventional push button design . and therefore putting it into a um well much lower price bracket . project manager: okay , yeah , tha that 's true , with the price range we 're looking at , going for a touch screen would probably be possibly out of our user interface: absolutely prohibitive , project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: oh . project manager: but you think uh again something to control multiple units in uh a simple fashion . user interface: yeah , i mean i would n't like to say you g i mean you get ones that you can switch between multiple units , but something that could um operate between multiple units in a more integrated fashion . some and ideally something into which it would have some at least limited facility for um running macros . project manager: would the the idea something along the lines of , one on button would turn on say the video recorder , the tv , maybe the sound system as well , all in one go , is that kind of user interface: for instance , um let 's say oh oh um , or um you know you pr uh you press uh say the play button for the d_v_d_ player and it turns the tv on and onto the right channel as well , um project manager: okay , that sounds like a a good strong idea . um marketing: 'kay project manager: any takes on this ? marketing: well um i 've noticed that uh gaming c is becoming quite popular with television , um when i was younger we used to e play games using our cable , using the cable subscribed the cable providers , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: but our remote controls would get worn out really easily , and the remote control was not a great kind of keyboar , um keypad , for playing games . project manager: okay . marketing: so perhaps one that was more um specialised for game playing or interactive television . they they 've recently brought out this new remote control , for people to set their favourite channels , or um to record things . instead of people entering in what time things start , you simply stri slide a bar to say what time it begins , project manager: okay . marketing: and slide another bar to say what time it ends , you know that 's project manager: yeah i 've heard i 've seen the bar-code design before , industrial designer: mm . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah , it 's it 's taken out the y you do n't have to be uh really clever to use a remote control . i think for gaming , you know you want you want some big buttons for up , down , left and right , shoot . project manager: marketing: uh , you wan na be able to change angles in interactive television , so you need buttons to change the television angle , the camera angles and stuff like that . project manager: okay , well industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: we 're beginning to run out of time now , so , we 've got a couple of ideas , marketing: yeah . project manager: we can we 'll have to work fast , um , alright as you can see we 've got thirty minutes until the next meeting , so we 'll have to try and decide on some of the basic functionality , um , how the user interface might work , that 'll be a key aspect especially if the idea of um some kind of macros facility because you have to program it , you have to have a lot of response back , or at least some kind . um user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: and we 're gon na maybe n try and have to figure out marketing: what the user wants uh . project manager: what the user wants , yes . marketing: okay . project manager: um , right . has anybody got anything they 'd like to add at this stage , anything they think that might have been missed so far ? industrial designer: well when you 're talking about gaming and stuff , do you think they should have some sort of stick on it , rather than buttons ? marketing: oh . okay , . industrial designer: like uh control pads , you know of games , but marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or is that a bit ridiculous ? project manager: i i do n't see why not , almost everybody is probably used to a console by now , and all of them incorporate small keypads on them , in fact even the mobile phones these days are beginning to use them as well , so it 's probably an interface that most people are used to . um industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and that could allow n easy navigation , used as a joystick as well . user interface: mm-hmm . the other key feature that uh that would be a good idea built into it is t is is to make something you know fairly sort of ergonomic , something that just fits fits as comfortably as possible into the hand . but of course , uh al al also allows for the possibility of a more sort of slightly unconventional or attractive uh sha shape for it overall , . project manager: okay . so , user interface: a curve , project manager: small , stylish , and something that 's just a little different . user interface: mm-hmm . something sort of sort of sl slightly sort of biomorphic in form , uh which it would need to be to sort of conform to the shape of the hand more efficiently anyway . project manager: okay . that 's definitely something that we should be able to do quite easily . i would i would have hoped so anyway . um , right . i 'd say we finish this one up , we get started , i 'll get in , i 'll write up what we 've um kind of quickly done , and i 'll get that out to everybody . yeah ? marketing: 'kay . so . project manager: okay . marketing: . industrial designer: . project manager: um , as far as i 'm aware we leave the microphones here , um unless we get told otherwise , and just take the laptops with us .

the team members introduced themselves and their positions respectively . project manager announced the plan for the three-phase remote control project . the team members drew their favourite animals to get more familiar with each other . project manager informed the team of their financial target , which was 50 million euros . each 25-euro remote control would make a profit of 12.5 euros . the team members had many ideas on the remote control design . user interface recommended an integrating remote control for several different devices , as well as an ergonomic curve design . marketing spotted a niche in the game market and thus suggested adopting a bar-code design . industrial designer added that the team could consider incorporating a keypad for the better game experience .

what did the group discuss about project finance and the new remote control design ? </s> project manager: okay , well i think we 're ready to begin . right , my name 's adam duguid , we 're here because of real reaction , um , we have in the group marketing: oh , ebenezer ademesoye . would you like me to spell that ? project manager: um , yeah , marketing: s project manager: go for it mate . marketing: um , n_e_z_ project manager: n_ e_ z_ . marketing: e_r_ . project manager: ebenezer . and your role is ? marketing: i 'm the marketing expert . project manager: you 're the marketing expert , okay . next we have ? industrial designer: tarik rahman . t_a_r_i_k_ . project manager: t_ r_ i_ k_ . and your role in this is ? industrial designer: industrial designer . project manager: industrial designer . and , lastly we have ? user interface: uh , dave cochrane . project manager: and you 're going to be the user interface , user interface: user interface defin designer , yes . project manager: is it ? designer . okay . right . this is the agenda for today 's meeting . as you can see , w opening , acquaintance , tool training , project plan discussion , and closing . um , we already got n through opening , and partially through acquaintance . so , the reason we 're here , we 're gon na design a new remote control , as you probably all know . the very broad overview is original , trendy , and user-friendly . course , we 'll have to go into a bit more um detail than that , but uh personally i think that the original is gon na be a very key aspect to this design . um , there 's a lot of remote controls out there anyway , so we 're gon na need something that 's really gon na set it apart . this is how today seems to be going to work . we 're gon na have the three kay phases , as you 've probably already been told , the functional , architectural , and the detailed design . um first one 's gon na be covering the user requirement spec , technical functions , working design . second seems to be conceptual components , properties , materials , and the last one is a detailed analysis of our design so far . of course , you 've all got the similar emails , i believe , right . what can i say ? ebenezer , you wan na have a you wan na draw your favourite animal ? industrial designer: marketing: sure . whiteboard . 'kay . s okay . i will make this quick , since we do n't have much time . um . 'kay , so it 's not the best picture in the world . project manager: marketing: here we have an elephant . first point , begins with an e_ , same like ebenezer . also , elephants have a very good memory , much like myself , industrial designer: marketing: and i ca n't remember back when i used to live back in nigeria , but i think i used to have a pet elephant . so elephants are big , strong and gentle , and they have great memories , and they begin with the letter e_ , just like ebenezer . project manager: brilliantly done . thank you . marketing: thank you . project manager: tarik , would you like to have a shot at a bit of artistry ? industrial designer: . project manager: oh , um , marketing: oh . oh oh project manager: you can clip them to your belt . industrial designer: do we take them off ? marketing: i think you ga industrial designer: oh right , project manager: you should also l um have your the lapel mic on as well . industrial designer: okay . marketing: the little the the industrial designer: ah-ha . marketing: oh that 's good , we can clip them on . okay . yeah , industrial designer: now where do i put the marketing: just um somewhere project manager: yep , the , it 's just across there , that 's it . yep . industrial designer: is this supposed to be clipped as well ? project manager: yeah . marketing: i think so . project manager: it 'll follow you if you marketing: yeah . there you go . project manager: you can probably just stick it in your pocket for now , i would n't worry too much . should have good range . industrial designer: uh , destroying your elephant here . marketing: project manager: industrial designer: uh , here we have a tiger . uh i 've always loved tigers . they 're just they 're big , they 're biggest cats , uh i did a project on cats in the wild when i was a kid and uh it was my favourite cat , just 'cause it was looks the best , the stripes , orange . my dad used to talk about he 's from bangladesh so he used to tell me all about them when he was when i was a kid . and uh they 're just the most feared of of uh animals in the wild . so uh that 's why i like them . did n't say an anything about me really but project manager: excellent , thank you very much . dave , if you 'd like to uh have a dash . user interface: um um , the monkey , um . the one f uh in fact this is a somewhat oblique reference in fact to uh well my i have a three uh three y year old daughter who h who who who is affectionately known as miss monkey . um , monkeys have attitude . which i think is a good thing . and i mean fr and from uh from the point of view of sort of the study of human evolution they and other primates are terribly interesting . um , so i like monkeys . and and th th th th thi thi this one seems to have perhaps more attitude than most . industrial designer: project manager: cheers . hardly what i 'd call the best drawing in the world but it 'll do for now . also not quite as feared as your average tiger , but uh cats are one of my favourite animals , they 're very independent , they 're snotty as hell at the best of times , and uh , what can you say , you got to love those qualities in an animal . right . i think we 've all managed to master the whiteboard there by looks of it , so , on to it . project finance . as you can see , twelve point five euros per unit . that 's not a terrible lot as far as i 'm aware , and we 're hoping to sell them for twenty five . if we 're aiming for fifty million euros we 're gon na have to be selling an awful lot of them . marketing: oh , that was profiting , that was an amount , so that 's the amount made , project manager: yep . marketing: okay . project manager: well , fifty million , and if you 're making twelve point five euros on each one , then , awful lot need to be sold . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . now we better actually just get on with the uh the meat of the project . so i 'm gon na guess that we 've all used remote controls . any ideas of where you think a new remote control could go into this market ? user interface: well , one thing i 'm aware of is , th there uh um at the sort of v very high price end of the market there 's there 's a em emerging market for sort of touch screen lcd remotes that can be uh programmed in m much more sophisticated ways than sort of conventional models , so you get the sort of you get um you you can redesign the interface to your own needs , you can programme in macros , and you get a much greater degree um um i mean you get in these sort of three in one , five in one , whatevers , but you can get integration between the different uh the the the diff the different things that it 's designed to control , to a much greater extent , and you can have one uh you know one macro to turn the uh you know turn the tv to the right channel , get the uh re uh rewind the tape in the v_c_r_ and get it to play once it 's rewound , for instance . project manager: okay . user interface: um b it occurs to me there might be a niche for uh for a remote that aimed towards some of that sort of functionality but using a just conventional push button design . and therefore putting it into a um well much lower price bracket . project manager: okay , yeah , tha that 's true , with the price range we 're looking at , going for a touch screen would probably be possibly out of our user interface: absolutely prohibitive , project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: oh . project manager: but you think uh again something to control multiple units in uh a simple fashion . user interface: yeah , i mean i would n't like to say you g i mean you get ones that you can switch between multiple units , but something that could um operate between multiple units in a more integrated fashion . some and ideally something into which it would have some at least limited facility for um running macros . project manager: would the the idea something along the lines of , one on button would turn on say the video recorder , the tv , maybe the sound system as well , all in one go , is that kind of user interface: for instance , um let 's say oh oh um , or um you know you pr uh you press uh say the play button for the d_v_d_ player and it turns the tv on and onto the right channel as well , um project manager: okay , that sounds like a a good strong idea . um marketing: 'kay project manager: any takes on this ? marketing: well um i 've noticed that uh gaming c is becoming quite popular with television , um when i was younger we used to e play games using our cable , using the cable subscribed the cable providers , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: but our remote controls would get worn out really easily , and the remote control was not a great kind of keyboar , um keypad , for playing games . project manager: okay . marketing: so perhaps one that was more um specialised for game playing or interactive television . they they 've recently brought out this new remote control , for people to set their favourite channels , or um to record things . instead of people entering in what time things start , you simply stri slide a bar to say what time it begins , project manager: okay . marketing: and slide another bar to say what time it ends , you know that 's project manager: yeah i 've heard i 've seen the bar-code design before , industrial designer: mm . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah , it 's it 's taken out the y you do n't have to be uh really clever to use a remote control . i think for gaming , you know you want you want some big buttons for up , down , left and right , shoot . project manager: marketing: uh , you wan na be able to change angles in interactive television , so you need buttons to change the television angle , the camera angles and stuff like that . project manager: okay , well industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: we 're beginning to run out of time now , so , we 've got a couple of ideas , marketing: yeah . project manager: we can we 'll have to work fast , um , alright as you can see we 've got thirty minutes until the next meeting , so we 'll have to try and decide on some of the basic functionality , um , how the user interface might work , that 'll be a key aspect especially if the idea of um some kind of macros facility because you have to program it , you have to have a lot of response back , or at least some kind . um user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: and we 're gon na maybe n try and have to figure out marketing: what the user wants uh . project manager: what the user wants , yes . marketing: okay . project manager: um , right . has anybody got anything they 'd like to add at this stage , anything they think that might have been missed so far ? industrial designer: well when you 're talking about gaming and stuff , do you think they should have some sort of stick on it , rather than buttons ? marketing: oh . okay , . industrial designer: like uh control pads , you know of games , but marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or is that a bit ridiculous ? project manager: i i do n't see why not , almost everybody is probably used to a console by now , and all of them incorporate small keypads on them , in fact even the mobile phones these days are beginning to use them as well , so it 's probably an interface that most people are used to . um industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and that could allow n easy navigation , used as a joystick as well . user interface: mm-hmm . the other key feature that uh that would be a good idea built into it is t is is to make something you know fairly sort of ergonomic , something that just fits fits as comfortably as possible into the hand . but of course , uh al al also allows for the possibility of a more sort of slightly unconventional or attractive uh sha shape for it overall , . project manager: okay . so , user interface: a curve , project manager: small , stylish , and something that 's just a little different . user interface: mm-hmm . something sort of sort of sl slightly sort of biomorphic in form , uh which it would need to be to sort of conform to the shape of the hand more efficiently anyway . project manager: okay . that 's definitely something that we should be able to do quite easily . i would i would have hoped so anyway . um , right . i 'd say we finish this one up , we get started , i 'll get in , i 'll write up what we 've um kind of quickly done , and i 'll get that out to everybody . yeah ? marketing: 'kay . so . project manager: okay . marketing: . industrial designer: . project manager: um , as far as i 'm aware we leave the microphones here , um unless we get told otherwise , and just take the laptops with us .

project manager informed the team of their financial target , which was 50 million euros . each 25-euro remote control would make a profit of 12.5 euros . the team members had many ideas on the remote control design . user interface recommended an integrating remote control for several different devices . marketing spotted a niche in the game market and thus suggested adopting a bar-code design .

summarize user interface 's opinions towards the new remote control design . </s> project manager: okay , well i think we 're ready to begin . right , my name 's adam duguid , we 're here because of real reaction , um , we have in the group marketing: oh , ebenezer ademesoye . would you like me to spell that ? project manager: um , yeah , marketing: s project manager: go for it mate . marketing: um , n_e_z_ project manager: n_ e_ z_ . marketing: e_r_ . project manager: ebenezer . and your role is ? marketing: i 'm the marketing expert . project manager: you 're the marketing expert , okay . next we have ? industrial designer: tarik rahman . t_a_r_i_k_ . project manager: t_ r_ i_ k_ . and your role in this is ? industrial designer: industrial designer . project manager: industrial designer . and , lastly we have ? user interface: uh , dave cochrane . project manager: and you 're going to be the user interface , user interface: user interface defin designer , yes . project manager: is it ? designer . okay . right . this is the agenda for today 's meeting . as you can see , w opening , acquaintance , tool training , project plan discussion , and closing . um , we already got n through opening , and partially through acquaintance . so , the reason we 're here , we 're gon na design a new remote control , as you probably all know . the very broad overview is original , trendy , and user-friendly . course , we 'll have to go into a bit more um detail than that , but uh personally i think that the original is gon na be a very key aspect to this design . um , there 's a lot of remote controls out there anyway , so we 're gon na need something that 's really gon na set it apart . this is how today seems to be going to work . we 're gon na have the three kay phases , as you 've probably already been told , the functional , architectural , and the detailed design . um first one 's gon na be covering the user requirement spec , technical functions , working design . second seems to be conceptual components , properties , materials , and the last one is a detailed analysis of our design so far . of course , you 've all got the similar emails , i believe , right . what can i say ? ebenezer , you wan na have a you wan na draw your favourite animal ? industrial designer: marketing: sure . whiteboard . 'kay . s okay . i will make this quick , since we do n't have much time . um . 'kay , so it 's not the best picture in the world . project manager: marketing: here we have an elephant . first point , begins with an e_ , same like ebenezer . also , elephants have a very good memory , much like myself , industrial designer: marketing: and i ca n't remember back when i used to live back in nigeria , but i think i used to have a pet elephant . so elephants are big , strong and gentle , and they have great memories , and they begin with the letter e_ , just like ebenezer . project manager: brilliantly done . thank you . marketing: thank you . project manager: tarik , would you like to have a shot at a bit of artistry ? industrial designer: . project manager: oh , um , marketing: oh . oh oh project manager: you can clip them to your belt . industrial designer: do we take them off ? marketing: i think you ga industrial designer: oh right , project manager: you should also l um have your the lapel mic on as well . industrial designer: okay . marketing: the little the the industrial designer: ah-ha . marketing: oh that 's good , we can clip them on . okay . yeah , industrial designer: now where do i put the marketing: just um somewhere project manager: yep , the , it 's just across there , that 's it . yep . industrial designer: is this supposed to be clipped as well ? project manager: yeah . marketing: i think so . project manager: it 'll follow you if you marketing: yeah . there you go . project manager: you can probably just stick it in your pocket for now , i would n't worry too much . should have good range . industrial designer: uh , destroying your elephant here . marketing: project manager: industrial designer: uh , here we have a tiger . uh i 've always loved tigers . they 're just they 're big , they 're biggest cats , uh i did a project on cats in the wild when i was a kid and uh it was my favourite cat , just 'cause it was looks the best , the stripes , orange . my dad used to talk about he 's from bangladesh so he used to tell me all about them when he was when i was a kid . and uh they 're just the most feared of of uh animals in the wild . so uh that 's why i like them . did n't say an anything about me really but project manager: excellent , thank you very much . dave , if you 'd like to uh have a dash . user interface: um um , the monkey , um . the one f uh in fact this is a somewhat oblique reference in fact to uh well my i have a three uh three y year old daughter who h who who who is affectionately known as miss monkey . um , monkeys have attitude . which i think is a good thing . and i mean fr and from uh from the point of view of sort of the study of human evolution they and other primates are terribly interesting . um , so i like monkeys . and and th th th th thi thi this one seems to have perhaps more attitude than most . industrial designer: project manager: cheers . hardly what i 'd call the best drawing in the world but it 'll do for now . also not quite as feared as your average tiger , but uh cats are one of my favourite animals , they 're very independent , they 're snotty as hell at the best of times , and uh , what can you say , you got to love those qualities in an animal . right . i think we 've all managed to master the whiteboard there by looks of it , so , on to it . project finance . as you can see , twelve point five euros per unit . that 's not a terrible lot as far as i 'm aware , and we 're hoping to sell them for twenty five . if we 're aiming for fifty million euros we 're gon na have to be selling an awful lot of them . marketing: oh , that was profiting , that was an amount , so that 's the amount made , project manager: yep . marketing: okay . project manager: well , fifty million , and if you 're making twelve point five euros on each one , then , awful lot need to be sold . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . now we better actually just get on with the uh the meat of the project . so i 'm gon na guess that we 've all used remote controls . any ideas of where you think a new remote control could go into this market ? user interface: well , one thing i 'm aware of is , th there uh um at the sort of v very high price end of the market there 's there 's a em emerging market for sort of touch screen lcd remotes that can be uh programmed in m much more sophisticated ways than sort of conventional models , so you get the sort of you get um you you can redesign the interface to your own needs , you can programme in macros , and you get a much greater degree um um i mean you get in these sort of three in one , five in one , whatevers , but you can get integration between the different uh the the the diff the different things that it 's designed to control , to a much greater extent , and you can have one uh you know one macro to turn the uh you know turn the tv to the right channel , get the uh re uh rewind the tape in the v_c_r_ and get it to play once it 's rewound , for instance . project manager: okay . user interface: um b it occurs to me there might be a niche for uh for a remote that aimed towards some of that sort of functionality but using a just conventional push button design . and therefore putting it into a um well much lower price bracket . project manager: okay , yeah , tha that 's true , with the price range we 're looking at , going for a touch screen would probably be possibly out of our user interface: absolutely prohibitive , project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: oh . project manager: but you think uh again something to control multiple units in uh a simple fashion . user interface: yeah , i mean i would n't like to say you g i mean you get ones that you can switch between multiple units , but something that could um operate between multiple units in a more integrated fashion . some and ideally something into which it would have some at least limited facility for um running macros . project manager: would the the idea something along the lines of , one on button would turn on say the video recorder , the tv , maybe the sound system as well , all in one go , is that kind of user interface: for instance , um let 's say oh oh um , or um you know you pr uh you press uh say the play button for the d_v_d_ player and it turns the tv on and onto the right channel as well , um project manager: okay , that sounds like a a good strong idea . um marketing: 'kay project manager: any takes on this ? marketing: well um i 've noticed that uh gaming c is becoming quite popular with television , um when i was younger we used to e play games using our cable , using the cable subscribed the cable providers , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: but our remote controls would get worn out really easily , and the remote control was not a great kind of keyboar , um keypad , for playing games . project manager: okay . marketing: so perhaps one that was more um specialised for game playing or interactive television . they they 've recently brought out this new remote control , for people to set their favourite channels , or um to record things . instead of people entering in what time things start , you simply stri slide a bar to say what time it begins , project manager: okay . marketing: and slide another bar to say what time it ends , you know that 's project manager: yeah i 've heard i 've seen the bar-code design before , industrial designer: mm . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah , it 's it 's taken out the y you do n't have to be uh really clever to use a remote control . i think for gaming , you know you want you want some big buttons for up , down , left and right , shoot . project manager: marketing: uh , you wan na be able to change angles in interactive television , so you need buttons to change the television angle , the camera angles and stuff like that . project manager: okay , well industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: we 're beginning to run out of time now , so , we 've got a couple of ideas , marketing: yeah . project manager: we can we 'll have to work fast , um , alright as you can see we 've got thirty minutes until the next meeting , so we 'll have to try and decide on some of the basic functionality , um , how the user interface might work , that 'll be a key aspect especially if the idea of um some kind of macros facility because you have to program it , you have to have a lot of response back , or at least some kind . um user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: and we 're gon na maybe n try and have to figure out marketing: what the user wants uh . project manager: what the user wants , yes . marketing: okay . project manager: um , right . has anybody got anything they 'd like to add at this stage , anything they think that might have been missed so far ? industrial designer: well when you 're talking about gaming and stuff , do you think they should have some sort of stick on it , rather than buttons ? marketing: oh . okay , . industrial designer: like uh control pads , you know of games , but marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or is that a bit ridiculous ? project manager: i i do n't see why not , almost everybody is probably used to a console by now , and all of them incorporate small keypads on them , in fact even the mobile phones these days are beginning to use them as well , so it 's probably an interface that most people are used to . um industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and that could allow n easy navigation , used as a joystick as well . user interface: mm-hmm . the other key feature that uh that would be a good idea built into it is t is is to make something you know fairly sort of ergonomic , something that just fits fits as comfortably as possible into the hand . but of course , uh al al also allows for the possibility of a more sort of slightly unconventional or attractive uh sha shape for it overall , . project manager: okay . so , user interface: a curve , project manager: small , stylish , and something that 's just a little different . user interface: mm-hmm . something sort of sort of sl slightly sort of biomorphic in form , uh which it would need to be to sort of conform to the shape of the hand more efficiently anyway . project manager: okay . that 's definitely something that we should be able to do quite easily . i would i would have hoped so anyway . um , right . i 'd say we finish this one up , we get started , i 'll get in , i 'll write up what we 've um kind of quickly done , and i 'll get that out to everybody . yeah ? marketing: 'kay . so . project manager: okay . marketing: . industrial designer: . project manager: um , as far as i 'm aware we leave the microphones here , um unless we get told otherwise , and just take the laptops with us .

user interface initially believed that there would be an emerging market for the touch screen remote control which could be programmed in a sophisticated way . users could redesign their remote controls to their own needs . remote controls originally designed for different devices could now be integrated . project manager , however , reminded user interface about the budget issue . user interface then admitted that a conventional push button would be a better choice than a touch screen .

summarize marketing 's opinions towards the new remote control design . </s> project manager: okay , well i think we 're ready to begin . right , my name 's adam duguid , we 're here because of real reaction , um , we have in the group marketing: oh , ebenezer ademesoye . would you like me to spell that ? project manager: um , yeah , marketing: s project manager: go for it mate . marketing: um , n_e_z_ project manager: n_ e_ z_ . marketing: e_r_ . project manager: ebenezer . and your role is ? marketing: i 'm the marketing expert . project manager: you 're the marketing expert , okay . next we have ? industrial designer: tarik rahman . t_a_r_i_k_ . project manager: t_ r_ i_ k_ . and your role in this is ? industrial designer: industrial designer . project manager: industrial designer . and , lastly we have ? user interface: uh , dave cochrane . project manager: and you 're going to be the user interface , user interface: user interface defin designer , yes . project manager: is it ? designer . okay . right . this is the agenda for today 's meeting . as you can see , w opening , acquaintance , tool training , project plan discussion , and closing . um , we already got n through opening , and partially through acquaintance . so , the reason we 're here , we 're gon na design a new remote control , as you probably all know . the very broad overview is original , trendy , and user-friendly . course , we 'll have to go into a bit more um detail than that , but uh personally i think that the original is gon na be a very key aspect to this design . um , there 's a lot of remote controls out there anyway , so we 're gon na need something that 's really gon na set it apart . this is how today seems to be going to work . we 're gon na have the three kay phases , as you 've probably already been told , the functional , architectural , and the detailed design . um first one 's gon na be covering the user requirement spec , technical functions , working design . second seems to be conceptual components , properties , materials , and the last one is a detailed analysis of our design so far . of course , you 've all got the similar emails , i believe , right . what can i say ? ebenezer , you wan na have a you wan na draw your favourite animal ? industrial designer: marketing: sure . whiteboard . 'kay . s okay . i will make this quick , since we do n't have much time . um . 'kay , so it 's not the best picture in the world . project manager: marketing: here we have an elephant . first point , begins with an e_ , same like ebenezer . also , elephants have a very good memory , much like myself , industrial designer: marketing: and i ca n't remember back when i used to live back in nigeria , but i think i used to have a pet elephant . so elephants are big , strong and gentle , and they have great memories , and they begin with the letter e_ , just like ebenezer . project manager: brilliantly done . thank you . marketing: thank you . project manager: tarik , would you like to have a shot at a bit of artistry ? industrial designer: . project manager: oh , um , marketing: oh . oh oh project manager: you can clip them to your belt . industrial designer: do we take them off ? marketing: i think you ga industrial designer: oh right , project manager: you should also l um have your the lapel mic on as well . industrial designer: okay . marketing: the little the the industrial designer: ah-ha . marketing: oh that 's good , we can clip them on . okay . yeah , industrial designer: now where do i put the marketing: just um somewhere project manager: yep , the , it 's just across there , that 's it . yep . industrial designer: is this supposed to be clipped as well ? project manager: yeah . marketing: i think so . project manager: it 'll follow you if you marketing: yeah . there you go . project manager: you can probably just stick it in your pocket for now , i would n't worry too much . should have good range . industrial designer: uh , destroying your elephant here . marketing: project manager: industrial designer: uh , here we have a tiger . uh i 've always loved tigers . they 're just they 're big , they 're biggest cats , uh i did a project on cats in the wild when i was a kid and uh it was my favourite cat , just 'cause it was looks the best , the stripes , orange . my dad used to talk about he 's from bangladesh so he used to tell me all about them when he was when i was a kid . and uh they 're just the most feared of of uh animals in the wild . so uh that 's why i like them . did n't say an anything about me really but project manager: excellent , thank you very much . dave , if you 'd like to uh have a dash . user interface: um um , the monkey , um . the one f uh in fact this is a somewhat oblique reference in fact to uh well my i have a three uh three y year old daughter who h who who who is affectionately known as miss monkey . um , monkeys have attitude . which i think is a good thing . and i mean fr and from uh from the point of view of sort of the study of human evolution they and other primates are terribly interesting . um , so i like monkeys . and and th th th th thi thi this one seems to have perhaps more attitude than most . industrial designer: project manager: cheers . hardly what i 'd call the best drawing in the world but it 'll do for now . also not quite as feared as your average tiger , but uh cats are one of my favourite animals , they 're very independent , they 're snotty as hell at the best of times , and uh , what can you say , you got to love those qualities in an animal . right . i think we 've all managed to master the whiteboard there by looks of it , so , on to it . project finance . as you can see , twelve point five euros per unit . that 's not a terrible lot as far as i 'm aware , and we 're hoping to sell them for twenty five . if we 're aiming for fifty million euros we 're gon na have to be selling an awful lot of them . marketing: oh , that was profiting , that was an amount , so that 's the amount made , project manager: yep . marketing: okay . project manager: well , fifty million , and if you 're making twelve point five euros on each one , then , awful lot need to be sold . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . now we better actually just get on with the uh the meat of the project . so i 'm gon na guess that we 've all used remote controls . any ideas of where you think a new remote control could go into this market ? user interface: well , one thing i 'm aware of is , th there uh um at the sort of v very high price end of the market there 's there 's a em emerging market for sort of touch screen lcd remotes that can be uh programmed in m much more sophisticated ways than sort of conventional models , so you get the sort of you get um you you can redesign the interface to your own needs , you can programme in macros , and you get a much greater degree um um i mean you get in these sort of three in one , five in one , whatevers , but you can get integration between the different uh the the the diff the different things that it 's designed to control , to a much greater extent , and you can have one uh you know one macro to turn the uh you know turn the tv to the right channel , get the uh re uh rewind the tape in the v_c_r_ and get it to play once it 's rewound , for instance . project manager: okay . user interface: um b it occurs to me there might be a niche for uh for a remote that aimed towards some of that sort of functionality but using a just conventional push button design . and therefore putting it into a um well much lower price bracket . project manager: okay , yeah , tha that 's true , with the price range we 're looking at , going for a touch screen would probably be possibly out of our user interface: absolutely prohibitive , project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: oh . project manager: but you think uh again something to control multiple units in uh a simple fashion . user interface: yeah , i mean i would n't like to say you g i mean you get ones that you can switch between multiple units , but something that could um operate between multiple units in a more integrated fashion . some and ideally something into which it would have some at least limited facility for um running macros . project manager: would the the idea something along the lines of , one on button would turn on say the video recorder , the tv , maybe the sound system as well , all in one go , is that kind of user interface: for instance , um let 's say oh oh um , or um you know you pr uh you press uh say the play button for the d_v_d_ player and it turns the tv on and onto the right channel as well , um project manager: okay , that sounds like a a good strong idea . um marketing: 'kay project manager: any takes on this ? marketing: well um i 've noticed that uh gaming c is becoming quite popular with television , um when i was younger we used to e play games using our cable , using the cable subscribed the cable providers , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: but our remote controls would get worn out really easily , and the remote control was not a great kind of keyboar , um keypad , for playing games . project manager: okay . marketing: so perhaps one that was more um specialised for game playing or interactive television . they they 've recently brought out this new remote control , for people to set their favourite channels , or um to record things . instead of people entering in what time things start , you simply stri slide a bar to say what time it begins , project manager: okay . marketing: and slide another bar to say what time it ends , you know that 's project manager: yeah i 've heard i 've seen the bar-code design before , industrial designer: mm . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah , it 's it 's taken out the y you do n't have to be uh really clever to use a remote control . i think for gaming , you know you want you want some big buttons for up , down , left and right , shoot . project manager: marketing: uh , you wan na be able to change angles in interactive television , so you need buttons to change the television angle , the camera angles and stuff like that . project manager: okay , well industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: we 're beginning to run out of time now , so , we 've got a couple of ideas , marketing: yeah . project manager: we can we 'll have to work fast , um , alright as you can see we 've got thirty minutes until the next meeting , so we 'll have to try and decide on some of the basic functionality , um , how the user interface might work , that 'll be a key aspect especially if the idea of um some kind of macros facility because you have to program it , you have to have a lot of response back , or at least some kind . um user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: and we 're gon na maybe n try and have to figure out marketing: what the user wants uh . project manager: what the user wants , yes . marketing: okay . project manager: um , right . has anybody got anything they 'd like to add at this stage , anything they think that might have been missed so far ? industrial designer: well when you 're talking about gaming and stuff , do you think they should have some sort of stick on it , rather than buttons ? marketing: oh . okay , . industrial designer: like uh control pads , you know of games , but marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or is that a bit ridiculous ? project manager: i i do n't see why not , almost everybody is probably used to a console by now , and all of them incorporate small keypads on them , in fact even the mobile phones these days are beginning to use them as well , so it 's probably an interface that most people are used to . um industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and that could allow n easy navigation , used as a joystick as well . user interface: mm-hmm . the other key feature that uh that would be a good idea built into it is t is is to make something you know fairly sort of ergonomic , something that just fits fits as comfortably as possible into the hand . but of course , uh al al also allows for the possibility of a more sort of slightly unconventional or attractive uh sha shape for it overall , . project manager: okay . so , user interface: a curve , project manager: small , stylish , and something that 's just a little different . user interface: mm-hmm . something sort of sort of sl slightly sort of biomorphic in form , uh which it would need to be to sort of conform to the shape of the hand more efficiently anyway . project manager: okay . that 's definitely something that we should be able to do quite easily . i would i would have hoped so anyway . um , right . i 'd say we finish this one up , we get started , i 'll get in , i 'll write up what we 've um kind of quickly done , and i 'll get that out to everybody . yeah ? marketing: 'kay . so . project manager: okay . marketing: . industrial designer: . project manager: um , as far as i 'm aware we leave the microphones here , um unless we get told otherwise , and just take the laptops with us .

marketing noticed that gaming on tv was getting popular and hoped that the new remote control could become a specialized keypad for game players . marketing desired buttons that would not get worn out too easily for the new remote control . a bar-code design was desirable as well .

what did the group discuss about the keypad and ergonomic design of the new remote control ? </s> project manager: okay , well i think we 're ready to begin . right , my name 's adam duguid , we 're here because of real reaction , um , we have in the group marketing: oh , ebenezer ademesoye . would you like me to spell that ? project manager: um , yeah , marketing: s project manager: go for it mate . marketing: um , n_e_z_ project manager: n_ e_ z_ . marketing: e_r_ . project manager: ebenezer . and your role is ? marketing: i 'm the marketing expert . project manager: you 're the marketing expert , okay . next we have ? industrial designer: tarik rahman . t_a_r_i_k_ . project manager: t_ r_ i_ k_ . and your role in this is ? industrial designer: industrial designer . project manager: industrial designer . and , lastly we have ? user interface: uh , dave cochrane . project manager: and you 're going to be the user interface , user interface: user interface defin designer , yes . project manager: is it ? designer . okay . right . this is the agenda for today 's meeting . as you can see , w opening , acquaintance , tool training , project plan discussion , and closing . um , we already got n through opening , and partially through acquaintance . so , the reason we 're here , we 're gon na design a new remote control , as you probably all know . the very broad overview is original , trendy , and user-friendly . course , we 'll have to go into a bit more um detail than that , but uh personally i think that the original is gon na be a very key aspect to this design . um , there 's a lot of remote controls out there anyway , so we 're gon na need something that 's really gon na set it apart . this is how today seems to be going to work . we 're gon na have the three kay phases , as you 've probably already been told , the functional , architectural , and the detailed design . um first one 's gon na be covering the user requirement spec , technical functions , working design . second seems to be conceptual components , properties , materials , and the last one is a detailed analysis of our design so far . of course , you 've all got the similar emails , i believe , right . what can i say ? ebenezer , you wan na have a you wan na draw your favourite animal ? industrial designer: marketing: sure . whiteboard . 'kay . s okay . i will make this quick , since we do n't have much time . um . 'kay , so it 's not the best picture in the world . project manager: marketing: here we have an elephant . first point , begins with an e_ , same like ebenezer . also , elephants have a very good memory , much like myself , industrial designer: marketing: and i ca n't remember back when i used to live back in nigeria , but i think i used to have a pet elephant . so elephants are big , strong and gentle , and they have great memories , and they begin with the letter e_ , just like ebenezer . project manager: brilliantly done . thank you . marketing: thank you . project manager: tarik , would you like to have a shot at a bit of artistry ? industrial designer: . project manager: oh , um , marketing: oh . oh oh project manager: you can clip them to your belt . industrial designer: do we take them off ? marketing: i think you ga industrial designer: oh right , project manager: you should also l um have your the lapel mic on as well . industrial designer: okay . marketing: the little the the industrial designer: ah-ha . marketing: oh that 's good , we can clip them on . okay . yeah , industrial designer: now where do i put the marketing: just um somewhere project manager: yep , the , it 's just across there , that 's it . yep . industrial designer: is this supposed to be clipped as well ? project manager: yeah . marketing: i think so . project manager: it 'll follow you if you marketing: yeah . there you go . project manager: you can probably just stick it in your pocket for now , i would n't worry too much . should have good range . industrial designer: uh , destroying your elephant here . marketing: project manager: industrial designer: uh , here we have a tiger . uh i 've always loved tigers . they 're just they 're big , they 're biggest cats , uh i did a project on cats in the wild when i was a kid and uh it was my favourite cat , just 'cause it was looks the best , the stripes , orange . my dad used to talk about he 's from bangladesh so he used to tell me all about them when he was when i was a kid . and uh they 're just the most feared of of uh animals in the wild . so uh that 's why i like them . did n't say an anything about me really but project manager: excellent , thank you very much . dave , if you 'd like to uh have a dash . user interface: um um , the monkey , um . the one f uh in fact this is a somewhat oblique reference in fact to uh well my i have a three uh three y year old daughter who h who who who is affectionately known as miss monkey . um , monkeys have attitude . which i think is a good thing . and i mean fr and from uh from the point of view of sort of the study of human evolution they and other primates are terribly interesting . um , so i like monkeys . and and th th th th thi thi this one seems to have perhaps more attitude than most . industrial designer: project manager: cheers . hardly what i 'd call the best drawing in the world but it 'll do for now . also not quite as feared as your average tiger , but uh cats are one of my favourite animals , they 're very independent , they 're snotty as hell at the best of times , and uh , what can you say , you got to love those qualities in an animal . right . i think we 've all managed to master the whiteboard there by looks of it , so , on to it . project finance . as you can see , twelve point five euros per unit . that 's not a terrible lot as far as i 'm aware , and we 're hoping to sell them for twenty five . if we 're aiming for fifty million euros we 're gon na have to be selling an awful lot of them . marketing: oh , that was profiting , that was an amount , so that 's the amount made , project manager: yep . marketing: okay . project manager: well , fifty million , and if you 're making twelve point five euros on each one , then , awful lot need to be sold . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . now we better actually just get on with the uh the meat of the project . so i 'm gon na guess that we 've all used remote controls . any ideas of where you think a new remote control could go into this market ? user interface: well , one thing i 'm aware of is , th there uh um at the sort of v very high price end of the market there 's there 's a em emerging market for sort of touch screen lcd remotes that can be uh programmed in m much more sophisticated ways than sort of conventional models , so you get the sort of you get um you you can redesign the interface to your own needs , you can programme in macros , and you get a much greater degree um um i mean you get in these sort of three in one , five in one , whatevers , but you can get integration between the different uh the the the diff the different things that it 's designed to control , to a much greater extent , and you can have one uh you know one macro to turn the uh you know turn the tv to the right channel , get the uh re uh rewind the tape in the v_c_r_ and get it to play once it 's rewound , for instance . project manager: okay . user interface: um b it occurs to me there might be a niche for uh for a remote that aimed towards some of that sort of functionality but using a just conventional push button design . and therefore putting it into a um well much lower price bracket . project manager: okay , yeah , tha that 's true , with the price range we 're looking at , going for a touch screen would probably be possibly out of our user interface: absolutely prohibitive , project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: oh . project manager: but you think uh again something to control multiple units in uh a simple fashion . user interface: yeah , i mean i would n't like to say you g i mean you get ones that you can switch between multiple units , but something that could um operate between multiple units in a more integrated fashion . some and ideally something into which it would have some at least limited facility for um running macros . project manager: would the the idea something along the lines of , one on button would turn on say the video recorder , the tv , maybe the sound system as well , all in one go , is that kind of user interface: for instance , um let 's say oh oh um , or um you know you pr uh you press uh say the play button for the d_v_d_ player and it turns the tv on and onto the right channel as well , um project manager: okay , that sounds like a a good strong idea . um marketing: 'kay project manager: any takes on this ? marketing: well um i 've noticed that uh gaming c is becoming quite popular with television , um when i was younger we used to e play games using our cable , using the cable subscribed the cable providers , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: but our remote controls would get worn out really easily , and the remote control was not a great kind of keyboar , um keypad , for playing games . project manager: okay . marketing: so perhaps one that was more um specialised for game playing or interactive television . they they 've recently brought out this new remote control , for people to set their favourite channels , or um to record things . instead of people entering in what time things start , you simply stri slide a bar to say what time it begins , project manager: okay . marketing: and slide another bar to say what time it ends , you know that 's project manager: yeah i 've heard i 've seen the bar-code design before , industrial designer: mm . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah , it 's it 's taken out the y you do n't have to be uh really clever to use a remote control . i think for gaming , you know you want you want some big buttons for up , down , left and right , shoot . project manager: marketing: uh , you wan na be able to change angles in interactive television , so you need buttons to change the television angle , the camera angles and stuff like that . project manager: okay , well industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: we 're beginning to run out of time now , so , we 've got a couple of ideas , marketing: yeah . project manager: we can we 'll have to work fast , um , alright as you can see we 've got thirty minutes until the next meeting , so we 'll have to try and decide on some of the basic functionality , um , how the user interface might work , that 'll be a key aspect especially if the idea of um some kind of macros facility because you have to program it , you have to have a lot of response back , or at least some kind . um user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: and we 're gon na maybe n try and have to figure out marketing: what the user wants uh . project manager: what the user wants , yes . marketing: okay . project manager: um , right . has anybody got anything they 'd like to add at this stage , anything they think that might have been missed so far ? industrial designer: well when you 're talking about gaming and stuff , do you think they should have some sort of stick on it , rather than buttons ? marketing: oh . okay , . industrial designer: like uh control pads , you know of games , but marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or is that a bit ridiculous ? project manager: i i do n't see why not , almost everybody is probably used to a console by now , and all of them incorporate small keypads on them , in fact even the mobile phones these days are beginning to use them as well , so it 's probably an interface that most people are used to . um industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and that could allow n easy navigation , used as a joystick as well . user interface: mm-hmm . the other key feature that uh that would be a good idea built into it is t is is to make something you know fairly sort of ergonomic , something that just fits fits as comfortably as possible into the hand . but of course , uh al al also allows for the possibility of a more sort of slightly unconventional or attractive uh sha shape for it overall , . project manager: okay . so , user interface: a curve , project manager: small , stylish , and something that 's just a little different . user interface: mm-hmm . something sort of sort of sl slightly sort of biomorphic in form , uh which it would need to be to sort of conform to the shape of the hand more efficiently anyway . project manager: okay . that 's definitely something that we should be able to do quite easily . i would i would have hoped so anyway . um , right . i 'd say we finish this one up , we get started , i 'll get in , i 'll write up what we 've um kind of quickly done , and i 'll get that out to everybody . yeah ? marketing: 'kay . so . project manager: okay . marketing: . industrial designer: . project manager: um , as far as i 'm aware we leave the microphones here , um unless we get told otherwise , and just take the laptops with us .

when discussing the basic functionality , the team agreed that it was the most important to meet the user requirements . industrial designer suggested that the team could consider incorporating a keypad for the better game experience . user interface went on making a contribution . an ergonomic curve design was recommended by user interface and appreciated by project manager , for it would make the remote control look more stylish .

what did project manager think of the special button design for game players when discussing keypad and ergonomic design of the new remote control ? </s> project manager: okay , well i think we 're ready to begin . right , my name 's adam duguid , we 're here because of real reaction , um , we have in the group marketing: oh , ebenezer ademesoye . would you like me to spell that ? project manager: um , yeah , marketing: s project manager: go for it mate . marketing: um , n_e_z_ project manager: n_ e_ z_ . marketing: e_r_ . project manager: ebenezer . and your role is ? marketing: i 'm the marketing expert . project manager: you 're the marketing expert , okay . next we have ? industrial designer: tarik rahman . t_a_r_i_k_ . project manager: t_ r_ i_ k_ . and your role in this is ? industrial designer: industrial designer . project manager: industrial designer . and , lastly we have ? user interface: uh , dave cochrane . project manager: and you 're going to be the user interface , user interface: user interface defin designer , yes . project manager: is it ? designer . okay . right . this is the agenda for today 's meeting . as you can see , w opening , acquaintance , tool training , project plan discussion , and closing . um , we already got n through opening , and partially through acquaintance . so , the reason we 're here , we 're gon na design a new remote control , as you probably all know . the very broad overview is original , trendy , and user-friendly . course , we 'll have to go into a bit more um detail than that , but uh personally i think that the original is gon na be a very key aspect to this design . um , there 's a lot of remote controls out there anyway , so we 're gon na need something that 's really gon na set it apart . this is how today seems to be going to work . we 're gon na have the three kay phases , as you 've probably already been told , the functional , architectural , and the detailed design . um first one 's gon na be covering the user requirement spec , technical functions , working design . second seems to be conceptual components , properties , materials , and the last one is a detailed analysis of our design so far . of course , you 've all got the similar emails , i believe , right . what can i say ? ebenezer , you wan na have a you wan na draw your favourite animal ? industrial designer: marketing: sure . whiteboard . 'kay . s okay . i will make this quick , since we do n't have much time . um . 'kay , so it 's not the best picture in the world . project manager: marketing: here we have an elephant . first point , begins with an e_ , same like ebenezer . also , elephants have a very good memory , much like myself , industrial designer: marketing: and i ca n't remember back when i used to live back in nigeria , but i think i used to have a pet elephant . so elephants are big , strong and gentle , and they have great memories , and they begin with the letter e_ , just like ebenezer . project manager: brilliantly done . thank you . marketing: thank you . project manager: tarik , would you like to have a shot at a bit of artistry ? industrial designer: . project manager: oh , um , marketing: oh . oh oh project manager: you can clip them to your belt . industrial designer: do we take them off ? marketing: i think you ga industrial designer: oh right , project manager: you should also l um have your the lapel mic on as well . industrial designer: okay . marketing: the little the the industrial designer: ah-ha . marketing: oh that 's good , we can clip them on . okay . yeah , industrial designer: now where do i put the marketing: just um somewhere project manager: yep , the , it 's just across there , that 's it . yep . industrial designer: is this supposed to be clipped as well ? project manager: yeah . marketing: i think so . project manager: it 'll follow you if you marketing: yeah . there you go . project manager: you can probably just stick it in your pocket for now , i would n't worry too much . should have good range . industrial designer: uh , destroying your elephant here . marketing: project manager: industrial designer: uh , here we have a tiger . uh i 've always loved tigers . they 're just they 're big , they 're biggest cats , uh i did a project on cats in the wild when i was a kid and uh it was my favourite cat , just 'cause it was looks the best , the stripes , orange . my dad used to talk about he 's from bangladesh so he used to tell me all about them when he was when i was a kid . and uh they 're just the most feared of of uh animals in the wild . so uh that 's why i like them . did n't say an anything about me really but project manager: excellent , thank you very much . dave , if you 'd like to uh have a dash . user interface: um um , the monkey , um . the one f uh in fact this is a somewhat oblique reference in fact to uh well my i have a three uh three y year old daughter who h who who who is affectionately known as miss monkey . um , monkeys have attitude . which i think is a good thing . and i mean fr and from uh from the point of view of sort of the study of human evolution they and other primates are terribly interesting . um , so i like monkeys . and and th th th th thi thi this one seems to have perhaps more attitude than most . industrial designer: project manager: cheers . hardly what i 'd call the best drawing in the world but it 'll do for now . also not quite as feared as your average tiger , but uh cats are one of my favourite animals , they 're very independent , they 're snotty as hell at the best of times , and uh , what can you say , you got to love those qualities in an animal . right . i think we 've all managed to master the whiteboard there by looks of it , so , on to it . project finance . as you can see , twelve point five euros per unit . that 's not a terrible lot as far as i 'm aware , and we 're hoping to sell them for twenty five . if we 're aiming for fifty million euros we 're gon na have to be selling an awful lot of them . marketing: oh , that was profiting , that was an amount , so that 's the amount made , project manager: yep . marketing: okay . project manager: well , fifty million , and if you 're making twelve point five euros on each one , then , awful lot need to be sold . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . now we better actually just get on with the uh the meat of the project . so i 'm gon na guess that we 've all used remote controls . any ideas of where you think a new remote control could go into this market ? user interface: well , one thing i 'm aware of is , th there uh um at the sort of v very high price end of the market there 's there 's a em emerging market for sort of touch screen lcd remotes that can be uh programmed in m much more sophisticated ways than sort of conventional models , so you get the sort of you get um you you can redesign the interface to your own needs , you can programme in macros , and you get a much greater degree um um i mean you get in these sort of three in one , five in one , whatevers , but you can get integration between the different uh the the the diff the different things that it 's designed to control , to a much greater extent , and you can have one uh you know one macro to turn the uh you know turn the tv to the right channel , get the uh re uh rewind the tape in the v_c_r_ and get it to play once it 's rewound , for instance . project manager: okay . user interface: um b it occurs to me there might be a niche for uh for a remote that aimed towards some of that sort of functionality but using a just conventional push button design . and therefore putting it into a um well much lower price bracket . project manager: okay , yeah , tha that 's true , with the price range we 're looking at , going for a touch screen would probably be possibly out of our user interface: absolutely prohibitive , project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: oh . project manager: but you think uh again something to control multiple units in uh a simple fashion . user interface: yeah , i mean i would n't like to say you g i mean you get ones that you can switch between multiple units , but something that could um operate between multiple units in a more integrated fashion . some and ideally something into which it would have some at least limited facility for um running macros . project manager: would the the idea something along the lines of , one on button would turn on say the video recorder , the tv , maybe the sound system as well , all in one go , is that kind of user interface: for instance , um let 's say oh oh um , or um you know you pr uh you press uh say the play button for the d_v_d_ player and it turns the tv on and onto the right channel as well , um project manager: okay , that sounds like a a good strong idea . um marketing: 'kay project manager: any takes on this ? marketing: well um i 've noticed that uh gaming c is becoming quite popular with television , um when i was younger we used to e play games using our cable , using the cable subscribed the cable providers , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: but our remote controls would get worn out really easily , and the remote control was not a great kind of keyboar , um keypad , for playing games . project manager: okay . marketing: so perhaps one that was more um specialised for game playing or interactive television . they they 've recently brought out this new remote control , for people to set their favourite channels , or um to record things . instead of people entering in what time things start , you simply stri slide a bar to say what time it begins , project manager: okay . marketing: and slide another bar to say what time it ends , you know that 's project manager: yeah i 've heard i 've seen the bar-code design before , industrial designer: mm . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah , it 's it 's taken out the y you do n't have to be uh really clever to use a remote control . i think for gaming , you know you want you want some big buttons for up , down , left and right , shoot . project manager: marketing: uh , you wan na be able to change angles in interactive television , so you need buttons to change the television angle , the camera angles and stuff like that . project manager: okay , well industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: we 're beginning to run out of time now , so , we 've got a couple of ideas , marketing: yeah . project manager: we can we 'll have to work fast , um , alright as you can see we 've got thirty minutes until the next meeting , so we 'll have to try and decide on some of the basic functionality , um , how the user interface might work , that 'll be a key aspect especially if the idea of um some kind of macros facility because you have to program it , you have to have a lot of response back , or at least some kind . um user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: and we 're gon na maybe n try and have to figure out marketing: what the user wants uh . project manager: what the user wants , yes . marketing: okay . project manager: um , right . has anybody got anything they 'd like to add at this stage , anything they think that might have been missed so far ? industrial designer: well when you 're talking about gaming and stuff , do you think they should have some sort of stick on it , rather than buttons ? marketing: oh . okay , . industrial designer: like uh control pads , you know of games , but marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or is that a bit ridiculous ? project manager: i i do n't see why not , almost everybody is probably used to a console by now , and all of them incorporate small keypads on them , in fact even the mobile phones these days are beginning to use them as well , so it 's probably an interface that most people are used to . um industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and that could allow n easy navigation , used as a joystick as well . user interface: mm-hmm . the other key feature that uh that would be a good idea built into it is t is is to make something you know fairly sort of ergonomic , something that just fits fits as comfortably as possible into the hand . but of course , uh al al also allows for the possibility of a more sort of slightly unconventional or attractive uh sha shape for it overall , . project manager: okay . so , user interface: a curve , project manager: small , stylish , and something that 's just a little different . user interface: mm-hmm . something sort of sort of sl slightly sort of biomorphic in form , uh which it would need to be to sort of conform to the shape of the hand more efficiently anyway . project manager: okay . that 's definitely something that we should be able to do quite easily . i would i would have hoped so anyway . um , right . i 'd say we finish this one up , we get started , i 'll get in , i 'll write up what we 've um kind of quickly done , and i 'll get that out to everybody . yeah ? marketing: 'kay . so . project manager: okay . marketing: . industrial designer: . project manager: um , as far as i 'm aware we leave the microphones here , um unless we get told otherwise , and just take the laptops with us .

marketing desired to design self-intuitive buttons for game players . industrial designer expressed a preference for a game control keypad rather than big separate buttons . project manager accepted the latter suggestion , for keypads on consoles were common and user-friendly nowadays , so it would also be feasible to incorporate one on the remote control . besides , project manager pointed out that a keypad would allow easier navigation and be used as a joystick .

why did user interface think of a curve design when discussing keypad and ergonomic design of the new remote control ? </s> project manager: okay , well i think we 're ready to begin . right , my name 's adam duguid , we 're here because of real reaction , um , we have in the group marketing: oh , ebenezer ademesoye . would you like me to spell that ? project manager: um , yeah , marketing: s project manager: go for it mate . marketing: um , n_e_z_ project manager: n_ e_ z_ . marketing: e_r_ . project manager: ebenezer . and your role is ? marketing: i 'm the marketing expert . project manager: you 're the marketing expert , okay . next we have ? industrial designer: tarik rahman . t_a_r_i_k_ . project manager: t_ r_ i_ k_ . and your role in this is ? industrial designer: industrial designer . project manager: industrial designer . and , lastly we have ? user interface: uh , dave cochrane . project manager: and you 're going to be the user interface , user interface: user interface defin designer , yes . project manager: is it ? designer . okay . right . this is the agenda for today 's meeting . as you can see , w opening , acquaintance , tool training , project plan discussion , and closing . um , we already got n through opening , and partially through acquaintance . so , the reason we 're here , we 're gon na design a new remote control , as you probably all know . the very broad overview is original , trendy , and user-friendly . course , we 'll have to go into a bit more um detail than that , but uh personally i think that the original is gon na be a very key aspect to this design . um , there 's a lot of remote controls out there anyway , so we 're gon na need something that 's really gon na set it apart . this is how today seems to be going to work . we 're gon na have the three kay phases , as you 've probably already been told , the functional , architectural , and the detailed design . um first one 's gon na be covering the user requirement spec , technical functions , working design . second seems to be conceptual components , properties , materials , and the last one is a detailed analysis of our design so far . of course , you 've all got the similar emails , i believe , right . what can i say ? ebenezer , you wan na have a you wan na draw your favourite animal ? industrial designer: marketing: sure . whiteboard . 'kay . s okay . i will make this quick , since we do n't have much time . um . 'kay , so it 's not the best picture in the world . project manager: marketing: here we have an elephant . first point , begins with an e_ , same like ebenezer . also , elephants have a very good memory , much like myself , industrial designer: marketing: and i ca n't remember back when i used to live back in nigeria , but i think i used to have a pet elephant . so elephants are big , strong and gentle , and they have great memories , and they begin with the letter e_ , just like ebenezer . project manager: brilliantly done . thank you . marketing: thank you . project manager: tarik , would you like to have a shot at a bit of artistry ? industrial designer: . project manager: oh , um , marketing: oh . oh oh project manager: you can clip them to your belt . industrial designer: do we take them off ? marketing: i think you ga industrial designer: oh right , project manager: you should also l um have your the lapel mic on as well . industrial designer: okay . marketing: the little the the industrial designer: ah-ha . marketing: oh that 's good , we can clip them on . okay . yeah , industrial designer: now where do i put the marketing: just um somewhere project manager: yep , the , it 's just across there , that 's it . yep . industrial designer: is this supposed to be clipped as well ? project manager: yeah . marketing: i think so . project manager: it 'll follow you if you marketing: yeah . there you go . project manager: you can probably just stick it in your pocket for now , i would n't worry too much . should have good range . industrial designer: uh , destroying your elephant here . marketing: project manager: industrial designer: uh , here we have a tiger . uh i 've always loved tigers . they 're just they 're big , they 're biggest cats , uh i did a project on cats in the wild when i was a kid and uh it was my favourite cat , just 'cause it was looks the best , the stripes , orange . my dad used to talk about he 's from bangladesh so he used to tell me all about them when he was when i was a kid . and uh they 're just the most feared of of uh animals in the wild . so uh that 's why i like them . did n't say an anything about me really but project manager: excellent , thank you very much . dave , if you 'd like to uh have a dash . user interface: um um , the monkey , um . the one f uh in fact this is a somewhat oblique reference in fact to uh well my i have a three uh three y year old daughter who h who who who is affectionately known as miss monkey . um , monkeys have attitude . which i think is a good thing . and i mean fr and from uh from the point of view of sort of the study of human evolution they and other primates are terribly interesting . um , so i like monkeys . and and th th th th thi thi this one seems to have perhaps more attitude than most . industrial designer: project manager: cheers . hardly what i 'd call the best drawing in the world but it 'll do for now . also not quite as feared as your average tiger , but uh cats are one of my favourite animals , they 're very independent , they 're snotty as hell at the best of times , and uh , what can you say , you got to love those qualities in an animal . right . i think we 've all managed to master the whiteboard there by looks of it , so , on to it . project finance . as you can see , twelve point five euros per unit . that 's not a terrible lot as far as i 'm aware , and we 're hoping to sell them for twenty five . if we 're aiming for fifty million euros we 're gon na have to be selling an awful lot of them . marketing: oh , that was profiting , that was an amount , so that 's the amount made , project manager: yep . marketing: okay . project manager: well , fifty million , and if you 're making twelve point five euros on each one , then , awful lot need to be sold . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . now we better actually just get on with the uh the meat of the project . so i 'm gon na guess that we 've all used remote controls . any ideas of where you think a new remote control could go into this market ? user interface: well , one thing i 'm aware of is , th there uh um at the sort of v very high price end of the market there 's there 's a em emerging market for sort of touch screen lcd remotes that can be uh programmed in m much more sophisticated ways than sort of conventional models , so you get the sort of you get um you you can redesign the interface to your own needs , you can programme in macros , and you get a much greater degree um um i mean you get in these sort of three in one , five in one , whatevers , but you can get integration between the different uh the the the diff the different things that it 's designed to control , to a much greater extent , and you can have one uh you know one macro to turn the uh you know turn the tv to the right channel , get the uh re uh rewind the tape in the v_c_r_ and get it to play once it 's rewound , for instance . project manager: okay . user interface: um b it occurs to me there might be a niche for uh for a remote that aimed towards some of that sort of functionality but using a just conventional push button design . and therefore putting it into a um well much lower price bracket . project manager: okay , yeah , tha that 's true , with the price range we 're looking at , going for a touch screen would probably be possibly out of our user interface: absolutely prohibitive , project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: oh . project manager: but you think uh again something to control multiple units in uh a simple fashion . user interface: yeah , i mean i would n't like to say you g i mean you get ones that you can switch between multiple units , but something that could um operate between multiple units in a more integrated fashion . some and ideally something into which it would have some at least limited facility for um running macros . project manager: would the the idea something along the lines of , one on button would turn on say the video recorder , the tv , maybe the sound system as well , all in one go , is that kind of user interface: for instance , um let 's say oh oh um , or um you know you pr uh you press uh say the play button for the d_v_d_ player and it turns the tv on and onto the right channel as well , um project manager: okay , that sounds like a a good strong idea . um marketing: 'kay project manager: any takes on this ? marketing: well um i 've noticed that uh gaming c is becoming quite popular with television , um when i was younger we used to e play games using our cable , using the cable subscribed the cable providers , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: but our remote controls would get worn out really easily , and the remote control was not a great kind of keyboar , um keypad , for playing games . project manager: okay . marketing: so perhaps one that was more um specialised for game playing or interactive television . they they 've recently brought out this new remote control , for people to set their favourite channels , or um to record things . instead of people entering in what time things start , you simply stri slide a bar to say what time it begins , project manager: okay . marketing: and slide another bar to say what time it ends , you know that 's project manager: yeah i 've heard i 've seen the bar-code design before , industrial designer: mm . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah , it 's it 's taken out the y you do n't have to be uh really clever to use a remote control . i think for gaming , you know you want you want some big buttons for up , down , left and right , shoot . project manager: marketing: uh , you wan na be able to change angles in interactive television , so you need buttons to change the television angle , the camera angles and stuff like that . project manager: okay , well industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: we 're beginning to run out of time now , so , we 've got a couple of ideas , marketing: yeah . project manager: we can we 'll have to work fast , um , alright as you can see we 've got thirty minutes until the next meeting , so we 'll have to try and decide on some of the basic functionality , um , how the user interface might work , that 'll be a key aspect especially if the idea of um some kind of macros facility because you have to program it , you have to have a lot of response back , or at least some kind . um user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: and we 're gon na maybe n try and have to figure out marketing: what the user wants uh . project manager: what the user wants , yes . marketing: okay . project manager: um , right . has anybody got anything they 'd like to add at this stage , anything they think that might have been missed so far ? industrial designer: well when you 're talking about gaming and stuff , do you think they should have some sort of stick on it , rather than buttons ? marketing: oh . okay , . industrial designer: like uh control pads , you know of games , but marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or is that a bit ridiculous ? project manager: i i do n't see why not , almost everybody is probably used to a console by now , and all of them incorporate small keypads on them , in fact even the mobile phones these days are beginning to use them as well , so it 's probably an interface that most people are used to . um industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and that could allow n easy navigation , used as a joystick as well . user interface: mm-hmm . the other key feature that uh that would be a good idea built into it is t is is to make something you know fairly sort of ergonomic , something that just fits fits as comfortably as possible into the hand . but of course , uh al al also allows for the possibility of a more sort of slightly unconventional or attractive uh sha shape for it overall , . project manager: okay . so , user interface: a curve , project manager: small , stylish , and something that 's just a little different . user interface: mm-hmm . something sort of sort of sl slightly sort of biomorphic in form , uh which it would need to be to sort of conform to the shape of the hand more efficiently anyway . project manager: okay . that 's definitely something that we should be able to do quite easily . i would i would have hoped so anyway . um , right . i 'd say we finish this one up , we get started , i 'll get in , i 'll write up what we 've um kind of quickly done , and i 'll get that out to everybody . yeah ? marketing: 'kay . so . project manager: okay . marketing: . industrial designer: . project manager: um , as far as i 'm aware we leave the microphones here , um unless we get told otherwise , and just take the laptops with us .

according to ergonomics , the remote control was expected to fit as comfortable as possible into the hand . in addition , user interface hoped that the remote control could have an unconventional and attractive shape . a small and stylish curve was user interface 's final choice to make the remote control look more unique .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to this morning 's children , young people and education committee . we 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members who are present if they wish to declare any interests ? okay , thank you . item 2 this morning is our final evidence session for our inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams am , cabinet secretary for education ; steve davies , director of the education directorate ; and ruth conway , deputy director , support for learners division . welcome to all of you , and thank you for your attendance and also for the paper that you 've provided in advance . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions , and the first questions are from llyr gruffydd . llyr gruffydd am: bore da . i just want to start by asking some questions around the targeting of the pupil development grant because , clearly , we 've had a lot of evidence around this apparent blurring of eligibility to an extent . i 'm just wondering how comfortable you are that the money is being targeted appropriately because , clearly , it 's being targeted more widely than just those eligible for free school meals , from some of the evidence we 've had , but also that it seems to be predominantly focused on low-attaining frees—pupils who are eligible for free school meals . kirsty williams am: thank you , llyr . i think it 's important to be absolutely clear that when it comes to individual interventions , those individual interventions should only be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals . but in some cases , schools may use their pdg funding to provide a universal intervention , but we would want to—in challenge advisers ' discussions in schools—we 'd want to have evidence that that universal intervention would have a disproportionate effect on the outcomes for children on free school meals . so , for instance , if i give you an example in your own region , llyr : at brynteg county primary school in wrexham , if you look at that primary school in wrexham , their results for free-school-meal children at the end of their primary school period in school are equivalent to their non-free-school-meal counterparts . so , there is no differentiation in those results . one of the things that they 've used their pdg for is to really focus on the concept of growth mindset in school . so , that 's a universal thing that they 've trained all the teachers in , but what we know is that that has a disproportionate effect on those children who are on free school meals . so , if you 're familiar with the concept of a growth mindset , it 's about really challenging learners to think that , ' i can do things . if sometimes i fail , i pick myself up , i 'm more resilient . ' now , that has been , as i said , trained to all the teachers in the school—it 's an ethos for the whole school—but we have seen that the impact on the free-school-meal children has been even greater , and now they 're at the same level . so , that 's the important distinction . individual intervention per child has to be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals , but sometimes a school will employ a whole-school approach to train their staff , for instance , and that , then , has to demonstrate it has a disproportionate effect on free school meals . so , growth mindset ; it may be attachment disorder training for staff , for instance , where we know it 's of benefit to everybody , but will have particular benefits for that cohort of students . with regard to more able and talented , you know , llyr , that this is an area of concern for me , generally , within the welsh education system ; that we 've not been particularly good at identifying , supporting and driving attainment for those children . i 'm absolutely clear that pdg needs to be used for those children who are eligible to drive potential , whatever the potential of that child is , including more able and talented . and again , i 'll give you an example that has been seen as good practice in pembrokeshire : a window on the world bus , again paid for by schools . i do n't know if you 're aware of it . llyr gruffydd am: we 've heard about that . kirsty williams am: oh , you 've heard about it ; well , it 's a really good example the window on the world . and , again , that 's very much targeted at raising aspirations and giving children who are more able and talented , who are eligible for pdg , those experiences , and to really push them . so , yes , i 'm absolutely clear that pdg should n't just be seen to be getting individuals to the average . for those children who are more able and talented , it should be used to support them— llyr gruffydd am: and we all share those aspirations , i 'm sure , and you pointed to examples of good practice , but of course , it 's not universal , is it , so what i 'm asking is : do you think that the guidance is sufficient as it is ? do you think that there 's a great enough awareness of how the pdg should be used at the coalface ? and also , are you confident that consortia and others have the measures in place to be able to demonstrate that it is being used properly ? kirsty williams am: i think , if we look at what estyn has said about pdg , it does actually recognise that the pdg is being used to push more able and talented children , but as always with the system , llyr , it 's whether we can be sure that that is strategic and that it 's happening across all of our schools . so , you're— llyr gruffydd am: but not just in relation to more able and talented , i 'm referring to the eligibility and the targeting . kirsty williams am: oh , the eligibility . you 'll be aware that , on the advice of sir alasdair , we have employed and appointed new pdg regional advisers , and i think their role is going to be absolutely crucial in spreading that good practice across the region , whether that 's use of pdg for more able and talented , or ensuring that pdg is used in the appropriate way . so , that 's there to provide strategic overall advice . and obviously , we have been very clear with regional challenge advisers , in the relationship and the conversations they 're having with individual schools , that they 're really challenging their schools about the use of pdg , not just in terms of targeting , but the programmes , what the money is being spent on , whether there is an evidence base for that and whether we are clear on impact . so , i think the new regional advisers are going to be crucial in enabling us to ensure more consistent practice across the regions . llyr gruffydd am: so , are you content that eligibility for free school meals is the best measure , really , of identifying which pupils to target ? kirsty williams am: llyr , in the absence of anything better . i 'll be the first person to say that maybe it 's not as absolutely focused , but in the absence of anything different to identify a proxy for need , i think it 's probably the best that we 've got at present . and we will continue to have discussions with local government about whether there are different ways . we have to be mindful . some of the policy levers in this area are out of my hands , so if we look at the roll-out of universal credit , for instance , we 've got officials working very hard at the moment to try and understand what universal credit is going to mean and where we are going to be able to identify relative need , going forward . we have n't had any additional resource as a result of this , but we 're very mindful that , potentially , this has an impact , going forward . and , officials are working all of the time , i must say , in conjunction with the department in england , to understand their thinking in this area so that we are in a position to make some decisions about what a notional eligibility for free school meals will look like going forward , but before i make any decisions , i want to assure everybody that there will be a full public consultation on that . llyr gruffydd am: okay . finally for now , on this issue of once a year , in january , if you 're eligible for free school meals , then you 're in that group for that year . we 've had some quite strong evidence about how difficult that makes longer term planning for a number of schools and we 've also been pointed in the direction of what 's happened in england with the ever 6 , and i 'm just wondering whether you 're giving any thought to maybe changing that a little bit . kirsty williams am: well , we 're certainly giving thought to flexibility . in conversations with alasdair , who is our independent adviser on this agenda , and individual schools , we 're actively giving thought to greater flexibility and maybe longer term projections , so that schools know , for a number of years ahead , what their allocation will be . there are advantages to that system , because you could give that flexibility , you could give that long-term approach , but then , how do you make that responsive if a school suddenly has more children ? we do know that , actually , the number of free-school-meal pupils is dropping . but there can be changes , you know , regional working in areas of north wales in tourism , or maybe in other areas at christmas time , parents are able to get a period of work . so , how can we create a more flexible system ? we 're actively looking at that at the moment . i would n't use it as an ever 6 concept , but as an 'ever 2 ' concept . we have looked at ever 6 , and i 'm going to be absolutely blunt with you : to introduce an ever 6 concept for wales would mean in the region of identifying an additional £40 million . i 'm going to be absolutely straight and blunt with you : we 're not in a position at the moment to be able to identify an additional £40 million to introduce an ever 6. but issues around flexibility , certainly , are actively under consideration . in fact , we 'll be having a discussion later on today about decisions , going forward , for the next two years . llyr gruffydd am: thank you . lynne neagle am: darren on this . darren millar am: it 's just a very brief point in response to the £40 million price ticket that you just put on that . that 's , of course , assuming that you maintain the current level of pdg , yes ? so , if you reduced the level of pdg slightly , but made it available to more individuals , if you like , via allocating it in a different way , then that £40 million price ticket would n't be there , would it ? kirsty williams am: i was asked a question about had i ever considered an ever 6. we have looked at that , we 've priced that up . i have to make decisions in the envelope of resources that are available to me . we could , indeed , change the way in which we allocate pdg money , but we have to do it within the envelope that is available to me , over £90 million . that 's a significant level of investment , but , of course , as always , darren , we could cut the amount per pupil , but that might have quite challenging swings in allocations . what we have done—because what i am clear on is that there was evidence to suggest that in the secondary sector , a great deal of pdg was being focused on years 10 and 11 , especially year 11 , in catch-up provision , and you 'll be aware , because we 've said this in evidence to the committee in the papers , we 've set a challenge to secondary schools to say , 'actually , the majority of your pdg allocation has to be used in key stage 3 . ' now , we have to balance the needs , the moral hazard of turning round to children in years 10 and 11 and saying , 'we're not going to provide catch-up opportunities for you , ' because , clearly , those children need that support . but the evidence and the advice that we 're receiving is : actually , strong focus on early years , primary and key stage 3 , if we get that right , should negate the need for spending money on catch-up at years 10 and 11. that 's why we , in our advice to local authorities and schools , say that we want to see evidence that they 're spending this money earlier on in a child 's career , rather than just a scramble at year 11 to say , 'right , we 've got to get you through your exams . ' darren millar am: okay , but have you actively considered , then , reducing the level you have ? kirsty williams am: we've— ruth conway: sorry—i was just going to say that one of the things is looking at the scope of the definition , and i think it 's about being more flexible with the definition , rather than reducing the amount per head . darren millar am: okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you . if we can go on , then , to talk about some of the practical uses of the pdg , you write in your written paper that 'the majority of schools are making well thought out and appropriate decisions ' on how to use it . but estyn reported that only two thirds of primary and secondary schools make effective use of the pdg . given that we 've had it now for six years , would you not have expected there to be a higher level of schools actually making good use of that funding ? kirsty williams am: well , to flip it on its head , the vast majority of schools , as identified by estyn , are using this money to good effect . so , that 's the way i like to see it—that the vast majority of schools are doing well . what estyn has also indicated is the intrinsic link here to leadership within individual schools , and as you 'll be aware , leadership , improving capacity in leadership and developing leadership talent in the welsh education system is a key priority for me in our national mission . of course , that 's being developed in a different work stream . i think what 's fair to say is that the use of pdg is evolving over time . i think we are seeing , increasingly , more and more schools understanding how best to deploy that money for best effect for students . so , if we 're honest , when pdg first started , i think , in some schools it was spent on investing in tracking of children , because they 'd never thought about tracking these children , they did n't have systems in place to look at the performance of these children , and to have a system in place . so we 've moved now from spending money on the infrastructure around support for fsm children into actual inputs in terms of teaching and learning . we 're also seeing from estyn that , actually , in terms of money following the evidence of what we know works , estyn says that pdg is probably the best example of schools following tried and tested and evidence-based interventions to deploy the money . but clearly we want all of this money to be deployed as well as it can be , and again we come back to the decision i 've made to appoint regional pdg advisers so that we can get that better consistency of approach . we are , in the discussions that i have with the regional consortia about how they challenge individual schools on usage , looking for very clear evidence of schools using the sutton trust toolkit , and we could have a discussion about whether that 's the right thing , because that 's on my mind too . but we want to see schools demonstrating their evidence base , and if they 're not , if a school is n't doing that , okay , so demonstrate to us why you 've made those decisions and , crucially , what are you doing as the school to judge whether that decision is actually making a difference for your individual pupils . so , if you 're moving away from tried and tested interventions , what we know works , if you 're doing something different with your money , okay , you need to justify that and you need to explain how you 're going to demonstrate impact . but i think what we 're seeing is increasing good practice in this area as the pdg develops and as our understanding of our school-to-school working in our self-improving school system also develops . i think we 're seeing better usage of the money year on year . lynne neagle am: thank you . llyr on this . llyr gruffydd am: you mentioned some schools will be moving from the tried-and-tested interventions , really , and i 'm just wondering to what extent that evolution of use of pdg is being driven by cuts to core funding . kirsty williams am: no , i do n't think it 's being driven by cuts to core funding . i think there has been— . one of the biggest impacts of pdg has not been—well , i suppose it is the money in itself , because the money has concentrated the minds , has n't it ? so , one of the most important things that pdg has done is highlight the importance of this agenda within schools , and really raise this up in the thinking of leadership and senior management teams in our schools , and has driven a focus on scrutiny and accountability in the systems that are working with our schools . i think the changing use of pdg reflects the journeys that schools have been on , some of them from a very low base where this was not a priority for them , to better understanding , and as research and as intelligence grows over time in this area , both in wales and outside of wales , schools are increasingly learning to use that evidence to tailor approaches in their schools . llyr gruffydd am: so you would n't accept at all that some of this money 's being used to paper over some funding cracks from elsewhere . because the unions and some others have told us that , whether we like it or not , there is some of that going on . kirsty williams am: as i said , llyr , we 're very clear about the usage that this money can be spent on in terms of individuals or universal application within schools , and that forms an important part of the checks and balances that we have in our system . can we continue to improve , and ensure that more and more of our schools are employing best practice ? yes , we can , and as i 've said , we 've taken steps to put in place the infrastructure to support that . lynne neagle am: thank you . mark 's questions are next . mark reckless am: cabinet secretary , how would you assess the impact of pdg on attendance and hopefully subsequent engagement with education from children who have free school meals ? kirsty williams am: i think what 's important to note is that , as estyn have themselves said , over the period of the last inspection report , we have seen improvements in attendance , but i do think we need to , again , look at how pdg can support this particular agenda . and as always in the welsh education system , there are some excellent examples of how schools use the money to address this . ysgol y preseli in pembrokeshire is a very good example of how they 've deployed their money . forgive me ; i ca n't off the top of my head remember the name of the primary school i visited , again in north wales , where the school has proactively used this money , and they actually send teaching assistants out of school in the morning before the start of the school day , and they actually have a walking bus . they call at homes for children , and they walk the children to the breakfast club . so , they 're proactively going out into the community and making sure that those children are in the classrooms , because the teacher said , 'we recognised we had a problem with attendance . we tried a variety of means of improving that , but in the end we have taken this quite bold step—we actually send the staff out and they create that walking bus , and they walk the children into school ' . they say that they know that , for some of those children , because of the difficult circumstances they and their families are living in , they probably would n't be in school if it was n't for that proactive approach . so , we 're looking again at what more we can do to support this particular agenda in terms of improving attendance , because although , again , there are examples of good practice , there is still a gap between the attendance of free-school-meal pupils and non-free-school-meal pupils . and , of course , we can have the best curriculum in the world with really high-quality teaching , but unless the children are in the classes then we 're not going to make the difference for them . whilst that differential exists , then it 's going to be hard to close the attainment gap for those children . mark reckless am: i was actually quite shocked just reading in advance of this meeting that the proportion attending 95 per cent or more , who have pretty full attendance , was only 35 per cent for free-school-meal children at level 4 , compared to 60 per cent for non-free-school-meal pupils . it still is an extraordinary difference . my colleague here showed me , i think , last week , a graph showing the link between attendance and attainment , in particular . when people were absent , a lot of the— . as i 'm sure you 're aware , there 's a huge connection . what more can pdg do to deal with it ? in the example you give i can see how a school with an awful lot of free-school-meal children could do that , but a lot of the free-school-meal children are actually in schools that do n't have that high a proportion of free school meals , where it would be much more challenging to bring in that type of initiative . kirsty williams am: yes , indeed , and i think it gets more challenging the older the children get . i think it 's more difficult to find interventions that are successful higher up , so key stage 4. so , you can do a walking bus with little ones , ca n't you , but i do n't suppose your average 15 or 16-year-old is going to take very kindly to that . so , you do need a different approach to that . but again , we see in ysgol y preseli the employment of staff to directly work with families of older children to reinforce the messages around , as you quite rightly say , the linkage between attendance and attainment , and really work with individual families to understand the barriers to attendance : what 's going on in the family that is preventing that child from going to school , and what more can the school do to address those situations . but you 're absolutely right ; there is more that we need to do to address this particular agenda of attainment . i do n't know if there 's anything extra you wanted to add , steve . steve davies: there is also another very good example—and i take what you say about where there are small numbers—but in our secondary schools where there are significant numbers , they 're investing pdg in resources like a school nurse and a school counsellor , not just to work with the children but link to other agencies on whom the children and the families are dependent to support them in terms of working with schools . so , it 's something , particularly in our most challenging areas , where it can not just be delivered within the school . so , good use of that resource is being made to employ people to support them in those wider areas . mark reckless am: thank you . to what extent is pdg also used to seek to reduce the higher rates of exclusion for children entitled to free school meals ? kirsty williams am: so , if we looked at permanent exclusions , there is n't a differential , but if we look at temporary exclusions , there we see there is a disproportionate number of children on free school meals that are subject to those exclusions . again , i think what schools employing best practice understand is that you need a multi-agency approach to supporting that particular child . some of those exclusions can be as a result of the need to address other issues going on in a child 's life . so , this is where we come back to the committee 's work , for instance , on mental health and support for children , support for behaviour in school . so , again , it 's a multi-agency approach that i think we need , and , in our good schools , our really , really good schools , there 's a recognition of that need to have a whole team around a child to support that child in education . with eotas , we made some changes last year regarding pdg for eotas . so , for those children who do find themselves in education other than at school , we are providing additional support that previously was not available . mark reckless am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . we 're going to move on now to talk about the impact of pdg on attainment . hefin david has got some questions . hefin david am: it appears that the attainment gap at 2017 has actually widened , in spite of pdg levels . is that correct ? kirsty williams am: yes . so , if you look at it—with the usual caveats about whether you can make direct comparisons on level 2 plus between the exams the year before and the exams that we had last summer—on the face of it , the gap has increased . i think what 's important to recognise , hefin , is a direction of travel . i 'm sure we all want to , because i want to , have a discussion about why children on free school meals were less resilient in the exam system last year . but , if we look at the period that we have been employing pdg , over that period , we have seen a narrowing of the gap . i think what 's quite stark , if we think about it— . so , if we look at where we started from : in 2009 , one in five children on free school meals got level 2 plus—one in five—by 2016 , we had got that down to one in three . obviously , there 's still a way to go , but , sir alasdair , who knows about these things , says that that is a significant improvement . last year , we got some challenges . we need to understand why that happened , but i do think it's— hefin david am: why , do you think ? kirsty williams am: why , do i think ? what i do think is there is no one answer . there is no one answer to this . i think we could look at and we can have discussions around the move from btec to science gcses . i think we have supplied figures to the committee about the significant change in the number of children on free school meals who were n't doing a single science gcse and are now doing science gcses . we can look at the unintended consequences of literature . again , we 've supplied figures . where children have done language and literature , whether that be through the medium of english or through the medium of welsh , there is more resilience . so , it 's that exposure to literacy in all its forms that i think could potentially make a difference . so , i think there 's no one answer to why free-school-meal children were not so resilient last year . we continue to have discussions with qualifications wales to get a better understanding of this . at my next ministerial policy board , in may , we 'll be doing a deep dive into this particular subject . hefin david am: so , to what extent would exam boards be responsible for lack of grade stability ? kirsty williams am: it could be one of the contributory factors . what i think is important is that there is no one , single reason why there seems to be less resilience in this cohort of children . hefin david am: will you be speaking to the exam boards about this and raising concerns ? kirsty williams am: i have written to qualifications wales , we 've had discussions about it , but i 've asked them to formally submit evidence ahead of my policy board for may , where , as i said , we will be doing a formal , deep-dive discussion across the department about these issues . but , again , hefin , what we 've got to be clear on is—while we look at overall factors , you know , our overall national statistic—we did see some schools last year whose fsm performance was better than it had been the year before . so , what was it in those schools that enabled those children to do really well , whereas , in other schools , the performance was different ? even in individual cities , you can see a huge variety of performance . so , take cardiff and swansea , our two biggest cities . you 've got schools in those cities with comparative levels of free school meals . so , you could have really high-performing schools with a very small number of the cohort on free school meals . the difference between those performances in a single city—so , that 's the same local education authority and the same regional consortium—you can see a massive change . there 's one school i can talk to : their free-school-meal performance is 88 per cent . a similar school in the same city with the same proportion of children on free school meals , their performance is down in the 20 per cents . so , i think what 's important is that we ca n't draw broad-brush conclusions . for me , the challenge is to go into individual schools and understand what was happening in that particular school that ensured that their children did really well . we 've got one school in swansea , their fsm performance at gcse level 2 outperforms non-fsm pupils . hefin david am: but we still need to rely on the trends from a distance . if we take your argument that 2017 was an unusual year and the trends up to 2016 were positive , in a few years ' time , when we will be looking back in two years ' time , how are we going to measure this progress , say , in 2019 ? what are we likely to see and what methods are you going to use to measure progress that way ? kirsty williams am: well , you 'll be aware that we are moving away from level 2 plus as a performance measure anyway because of the— hefin david am: so , what performance measures will you use ? kirsty williams am: so , for the lack of sophistication around the level 2 plus , and for the unintended behaviours that that particular performance measure has driven within our schools . i 'll be making a statement shortly to the assembly around a new performance measure for schools . we were , at our most recent secondary heads conference , working with schools to develop that . what 's important to me is that we have a more sophisticated model that looks at school performance for all children . what level 2 plus does is narrow , very much , the focus of schools on an individual part of the cohort , usually the c/d borderline , which is why then we have problems with the number of students getting a b grade or above . we have marked success in our schools by saying to schools that a c is good enough . well , if a child gets a c but came to you in year 7 and they were destined to get an e , yes , indeed , a c is a success , because you 've moved that child on ; but , if that child came to you destined to get an a * and gets a c , then we have n't done a good job by that particular child . so , we need a performance measure that is much more sophisticated , looks at each individual child , tracks that progress , and measures the value added by that school in performance . hefin david am: last question : therefore , should we have confidence in the data up to 2016 ? is there a lack of confidence in that data ? kirsty williams am: no , it 's not a lack of confidence in the data . the data is the data . what i 'm saying is , using that as a performance measure and an accountability measure within our school system may have been right for the time . i think it is now right to have a different way of measuring success in schools . i think that particular set of performance measures has driven certain behaviours—not because ministers wanted that to happen , but as an unintended consequence . i think we can work together with our school system , learning the lessons of international best practice , to develop much more sophisticated accountability and performance measures for individual schools , and , i should say , for the government . so , you will be aware of my intention to issue the first national report card on government performance later on this year . so , this is not about trying to avoid scrutiny . it 's about trying to develop a more sophisticated way , which is in line with our national mission , where every child 's education is valued , and where the impact of the school can be tracked more effectively . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . can i just ask , cabinet secretary , are you still holding on to your target of 37 per cent of free-school-meal pupils achieving the level 2 threshold ? kirsty williams am: well , we 're moving away from the level 2 threshold . so , that 's the first thing to say . so , we will want to develop a new suite , in line with our new accountability measures , as we go forward . so , we will be absolutely continuing to track and evaluate the performance of free-school-meal pupils . when we announce our new accountability measures , i will be in a position to address how we 'll measure the government's performance , and national performance , going forward . but , given the fact that we 're moving away from level 2 plus , then we will need a different set of performance indicators . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the next questions are on looked-after children and adopted children , and i 've got questions from michelle then mark . michelle brown am: thank you . good morning— mark reckless am: i was to come in first , i think . i was about to ask about icf consulting . lynne neagle am: go on then . mark reckless am: i think my questions are first , but , michelle , please do correct me if you were planning to come in before . the pdg for looked-after children does n't quite seem to have the degree of visibility as the pdg for the free-school-meals . i think we had the mori/wiserd survey—only 15 per cent of primary schools and 23 per cent of secondary schools were aware that pdg was targeted at looked-after children . i just wonder—can you clarify on the record here what is the role of schools with pdg for looked-after children as compared to the regional consortia in this field ? kirsty williams am: okay . i think it is absolutely fair to say that most awareness around pdg is around free school meals . there is less awareness around the availability of pdg to support looked-after children . i think that 's probably in the nature of the cohort , so , there are more children subject to free school meals than are subject to being looked after . so , i think that 's part of the explanation . a decision was taken in 2015 to regionalise pdg for looked-after children . my understanding was that the thinking behind that at the time was around a greater strategic deployment of that resource and to try and drive a greater impact than how it was being used previously . so , looked-after pdg is held at a regional level . we have looked-after children pdg co-ordinators—they 're in their second year this year—to look at a regional deployment of that resource . and that resource can be done in a variety of ways , through individual allocation to a school to support an individual child , through to capacity building for the whole system . so , for instance , if i give you an example , in carmarthenshire , there 's been a big emphasis on attachment disorder and training teachers with regard to the impact of attachment disorder . carmarthenshire happens to be one of those local authorities that does quite well in terms of attainment for looked-after children . but , clearly , i have—not concerns . 'concerns ' is n't the right word . but i have asked officials to give greater scrutiny to how that resource has been used in the last year . steve , on my behalf , wrote out to the system , setting out our expectations , but also advising them of the fact we will be asking very detailed questions of accountability for that money . so , what has that money been used on and how can you account for the effect ? but , steve , maybe you can give some greater detail . steve davies: i think the challenge that— . one of the rationales for shifting—not that all the money stays in the region , but having a regional strategic support—was that , historically , the money was going directly with that child to the school . given the quite often rapid turnover of children in schools—the very nature of looked-after children is they do sometimes move through foster parents—historically , what happened , the money lands in the school , because , at that time in the year , when it 's measured , the school gets the money and can spend it on some additional support for staff , but quite often that child moves on to another school and the money does n't transfer . some schools will go through quite a number of years without having a looked-after child and will not think strategically , 'how do i need to support them ? ' so , that was the rationale of the shift . in terms of the implementation of the regional allocation , as of this financial year finishing , we are going into local authorities and regions to evaluate where they 've located the resource , what the impact of that resource has been , so that is reinforced and shared more widely . kirsty williams am: and then , to reassure , it 's not just internally that we 're looking at this . we have a contract with an external agency to do an evaluation— mark reckless am: that 's icf consulting . kirsty williams am: yes . yes , so that was done in the autumn of last year , because , as i said , we had concerns about whether this was really having the effect that was intended . so , my expectation is that we will be in a position to receive that report later on this spring , and of course it would be my intention that that report would be made public for people to have a look at what— mark reckless am: that was commissioned last autumn— kirsty williams am: yes , in november 2017 . mark reckless am: november 2017 . kirsty williams am: so , i 'm hoping to have that published before the summer recess . i 'm very reluctant to say months ; i 've learnt not to say months , because they move . lynne neagle am: i 'm going to go to michelle now , mark , because— mark reckless am: sure . i will come back in if i have anything further to ask here after michelle . lynne neagle am: —both of you asked for these questions , and that 's what the pre-meeting is for . mark reckless am: michelle , i defer to you . lynne neagle am: michelle . michelle brown am: okay , thank you . would you be open , cabinet secretary , to the idea of adjusting the eligibility of the pdg so that pupils who have been looked after or adopted at any point within a previous given period of time would attract the pdg , rather than only if they 're looked-after on a one-off date ? kirsty williams am: as i said earlier , in questions from , i think it was , llyr , who was talking about concepts of concepts of ever 6 , we are constantly looking at how we can get that balance between focus and flexibility for this resource . llyr opened with the question of , 'how can you absolutely ensure that these children are getting the money ? ' , but then there 's also a tension about how can you create some flexibility around the school 's usage of the grant . so , we will look at that . i think there is the issue of where a school would know of a child that was looked after . issues around adoption are slightly more sensitive , because we could n't force a family to tell a school that their child was an adopted child . so , a family may be very open and very keen to explain that to a school , but we ca n't necessarily track as closely children who have been adopted , especially if that adoption happens before the child goes to school . we ca n't be in a position of forcing families to disclose this information if they do n't want to , but we certainly can , as i say , look to strengthen our monitoring arrangements around pdg support for looked-after children and the impact that that 's having . i just think we need to be a bit mindful of people 's privacy in some instances . if they do n't want to divulge that , it would n't be my job to tell a family , 'you have to let us know if your child is adopted . ' lynne neagle am: michelle . michelle brown am: fair enough ; thank you for that answer . the eas consortium 's approach to using the looked-after and adopted pdg is to use it as part of a broader approach targeted at vulnerable learners in general . what are your views on that approach ? kirsty williams am: i 'm a great believer in if we can get it right for our most vulnerable learners , we 'll be getting it right for all of our learners . i gave the example earlier , for instance , of attachment disorder , and , chair , you will know that i have had conversations . one of the emerging themes for me , as i go around visiting schools , is the impact and the growing awareness and the growing numbers of children who have attachment disorder , and how schools are best able to respond to that in their children . so , for instance , as i said about carmarthenshire , there 's been a huge effort to address that in the school sector in carmarthenshire . now , that has a disproportionate benefit for those children , because you 're more likely to see attachment disorder in children who are care experienced , because of the nature of the lives that those children have lived , but that does n't necessarily mean that attachment disorder is exclusively found in those children that are looked after . it can be found in other families as well . so , that vulnerable learner , regardless of their background , will benefit from having teachers who are better trained , understanding and have intervention strategies in place to be able to address that need . steve davies: i think it 's also important to add that this is not one region 's approach ; this is across four regions , so the others— . for example , erw have run a significant programme looking at the impact of adverse childhood experiences on pupils , which has enabled teachers to detect some of the impact of some of those and then considers some of the work they need to do within the school but also with other agencies . so , it is something that's applied consistently across the four regions . kirsty williams am: i was in pil primary school recently where they use their pdg , both fsm pdg , and no doubt an element of pdg for looked-after , for nurture groups . so , for those children who really , really find it very difficult to be in the main classroom , they can have that nurture group experience to address issues around emotional behaviour , feelings , and it gets them in a position where they are able then to join the main classroom because issues around behaviour have been addressed and they 're in a better position to learn . so , again , this is an example of how vulnerable learners in the wider sense can benefit . lynne neagle am: okay . mark , did you have anything you wanted to ask ? mark reckless am: yes . can i follow up on tracking adopted children ? i entirely understand that you ca n't force parents to disclose that their child is adopted . however , my understanding was that , in england , there was a dataset with social services that was shared with schools in a way that i 'm not clear is happening in wales and how , if at all , that links to the pupil level annual school census data . perhaps sort of linked to that , is n't there an argument for making the parents of adopted children in the schools , potentially , with adopted children more aware that adopted children who were previously looked after have this potential grant , and would they not be more willing to disclose this , at least confidentially to the school and government , if they knew there was this upside of doing so ? kirsty williams am: we 're actively looking at whether we should try and find a way of collecting this data , with the caveats that i just gave earlier . we ca n't force parents to divulge information that is a matter for them , nor would i want to . but there is an active discussion going on at the moment about whether we could create a dataset where people divulge this information and we can then track the children through . you 're absolutely right . one of the ways in which we can often encourage take-up , for instance , of free school meals , especially in those communities where there is a sense of reluctance to apply for support—even though people are entitled to it , there 's a reluctance to do it ; sometimes we see this in rural areas— . actually , appealing to the parents by saying , 'actually , this will mean more money for your child 's school budget' is a much more compelling reason why people will apply for it then saying , 'actually , it 's going to help you ' , because they do n't want to be seen being dependent , they do n't want to be seen being helped . but , if you say to them , 'actually , do you know that this means more money for your child 's school ? ' , they go , 'oh , all right then , i 'll fill in the forms now . ' so , you 're right , i think there is something that we could do to make parents understand , in the round , that this has an impact . but we are actively looking at and discussing whether we could create a dataset around adopted children and how we can do that in line with data protection and data sharing . one of the things i am concerned about in the performance of looked-after children generally is how we can , across government , work more closely together . we ca n't see the educational attainment of looked-after children just being a job of education . it 's got to be a job of social services and the health service as well . there 's got to be a joined-up approach to doing that . now , officials were at the ministerial advisory group that 's chaired by david melding on prospects for looked-after children . they were there at the group last week . david tells me that the paper was very positively received by the group . i will be sitting down with david melding to talk through what more we can do on the education side . i think there 's really an appetite between me and the minister for children to get a closer working relationship on this . we ca n't expect schools to do it on their own and alone . and there are things that we can do out there in local authorities to help improve outcomes . it 's not just about the pdg ; it is about , when social services are thinking about a placement , where does the discussion about where children are going to go to school—when does that take place ? do we talk about the placement , move a child and then think , 'oh my goodness me , what are we going to do about the schooling ? ' if you can imagine , the school could have been working really , really hard with a pupil to get them in a good place , to get them being able to access the curriculum , and then social services decide that the placement is being changed . so , we potentially lose all of that . so , a greater involvement in education and better linked-up working in local authorities will help us with this . it ca n't be just the job of the pdg . if we think we can crack this with just pdg , then we 're being delusional . it has to be a cross-government approach at a national level , and at a local government level as well , to get this right . sometimes , data protection—how can we break down some of these barriers between , you know , the school does n't need to , schools should n't see , the entire social services report ? well , maybe the school does need to see some of that background information if they 're going to have an impact for that child . so , there 's more work to do , but it can not be just the job of education on its own if we 're going to make a difference , nor can it just be the job of the pdg to make a difference for those children . lynne neagle am: thank you . julie 's got some more questions on the impact on adopted and looked-after children . julie morgan am: yes , before i go on to those , i just wanted to support , really , what mark was saying about adopted children and how important it is , i think , that the adoptive parents feel able to speak to the school and to give information . because certainly any evidence we 've had from adoptive parents , and generally knowing about what adoptive parents do feel , is that they often feel that there 's a degree of a lack of sensitivity in the school about the issues of adoption . i would certainly support some move towards ensuring that the atmosphere was open in a way that would encourage them to realise that it would be a help for the children if there was an awareness in the school . so , i just wanted to really reinforce that . kirsty williams am: yes , and that would chime with what i hear from many adoptive parents . i 'm just trying to be sensitive by saying we ca n't force people to divulge this information if they do n't want to . julie morgan am: no , but they need to be given the opportunity . kirsty williams am: yes , you 're right . we need to make sure that those parents feel that they can discuss this with school leaders and classroom teachers and explore how best those individual children can be supported , and how best we can support parents . because , again—and i 've said this a lot—after the quality of teaching , the second biggest impact on a child 's educational outcome will be parental engagement . so , being able to create an environment where adoptive parents feel very confident and able to talk about their children 's education is absolutely crucial if we 're going to get that parental engagement that we need for all of our children . julie morgan am: yes . thank you . going on to looked-after children , you say that the latest data on looked-after children 's attainment is extremely disappointing . can you expand on that and what effect the pdg has had in this result , or not had ? kirsty williams am: well , there 's no getting away from it : the way in which we currently measure outcomes for looked-after children , the results are not good enough . it 's a source of huge concern to me that we need to do better for those children . that 's why officials are engaging with the group that david melding is chairing , to make sure that education is integral to that group and it 's not lost sight of . there 's a discussion to be had about the cohort , whether it 's right and correct to compare looked-after children to the main cohort , or whether these statistics are useful in any way . sometimes as well—this is not to make an excuse because , as i 've said in my paper , it 's extremely disappointing , but sometimes it can be really difficult . because the cohort sometimes can be very , very small , it can swing the statistics to look perhaps more dramatic . julie morgan am: i think , generally , when you look at how looked-after children do— kirsty williams am: it 's not good . julie morgan am: —in a much wider evaluation , they 're not doing well , are they ? kirsty williams am: they 're not doing well . so , that 's why we 've got the review , the independent review , into the impact of the pdg in this area . this is why steve is doing the work that he is doing with the regional consortia because , clearly , at the moment , we are not doing what we need to do for that particular cohort of children . i would not make any bones about that at all . steve davies: i think we will not move away from the fact that these children need good gcses to gain employment , so we 'll continue to measure that . i think we need to look at more nuanced evaluations of the data at a lower level . so , for example , there were significant improvements in terms of pdg pupils who got three and four good gcses but did n't get past the threshold . that 's not to cover anything that is not working in terms of improvement , but we will look at the full range and still hold on to the fact that we have to look at a measure that relates to the likelihood of these children going on to further education and training . julie morgan am: and then just one more question about the exclusion rates amongst looked-after children . they are , i understand , over six times more likely to be given a fixed-term exclusion . so , is there any way of trying to address this ? is the pdg used for anything to do with exclusions ? kirsty williams am: we can look at exclusions . we also have to read across about how the whole system works , not just the pdg element of the system . so , we know , for example , that 66 per cent of looked-after learners have some additional learning need , so we ca n't just look at it in terms of this particular source of funding ; we have to look at it at a wider level of support . so , given that the majority of those children will have an aln , how can we make sure that our new aln legislation and our new aln regime meets the needs of these children ? so , i think what we 're looking at , again , is to say that it ca n't be just the job of the pdg . that 's there as an additional level of support , but actually , we 've got to get our aln right . unless we get our aln right , lots and lots of these children are not going to get the support that they need day in , day out via that system . we do know that sometimes , if we 're not addressing aln , then we 're not addressing behaviour issues that then potentially lead to an expulsion or potentially lead to non-attendance . so , we 've got to look at it in the round and recognise the connections between the sometimes quite complex needs that these children have within the school setting , that are not just as a result of the fact that they 're looked after ; they have other needs as well . steve davies: and investment in well-being— kirsty williams am: absolutely . steve is reminding me that that 's why well-being is part of the national mission—to address issues around supporting children with their well-being , which is a way of keeping them in school . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 're going to move on to schools challenge cymru now . llyr . llyr gruffydd am: thank you , chair . i was just wondering what your assessment is as to why some schools made progress and others did n't . kirsty williams am: i think we have to recognise that the 39 schools that were part of the programme were in very , very different places . so , i think one of the reasons why some schools did well was because their needs were not so complex , not so deep-seated and a certain level of intervention was enough to get them moving forward . some schools had very , very different needs . i think , talking to those involved in the programme , as always , we had some support advisers , challenge advisers working with those schools as part of the programme who were really , really excellent and really good , and were the right fit for the school and really drove the school onwards . we had other people employed in the programme who , perhaps , were less effective at driving change within those individual schools . so , what we have is a mixed bag of performance , again reflecting the very different challenges that those schools were facing , which led them to be chosen for the programme in the first place . llyr gruffydd am: yes , okay— steve davies: sorry . one of the other key additional factors was the extent to which there had been recent appointment of a new headteacher to that school just before the programme had started , because— kirsty williams am: leadership is all . llyr gruffydd am: and that was seen as a positive . steve davies: a positive , yes . i think one of the challenges is that sometimes the time it takes to make changes in leadership can be protracted and can be a barrier , sometimes , to the speed with which you can move . but , for a significant minority of the schools , there had been recent new appointments of headteachers , which was seen to be contributing , when you looked at the evaluation , to the speed with which they were able to engage . llyr gruffydd am: the reason i was asking was i wanted to understand what lessons the government is taking from that three-year investment , really , and how , maybe , you 're applying some of those lessons to your wider school improvement programme . i know professor mel ainscow identified six interconnected lessons , although i also note that the cabinet secretary did n't actually meet him for about six or seven months after coming into post . so , i 'm just wondering , can you give us confidence that , actually , you are serious about taking lessons from schools challenge cymru and applying them to the wider school improvement agenda ? kirsty williams am: well , absolutely , llyr . i do n't think anything should be read into when i met the individual concerned , because officials were meeting the individual concerned . individual challenge advisers were meeting with the regions , there was crossover work with the fsm agenda as well , and we are absolutely determined that best practice and those interventions that drove school improvement are embedded in the new support that we have via the regional consortia . it 's no coincidence that some of the best people that were employed by schools challenge cymru are now in the employment of our regional consortia . so , those people that were really good and really made a difference do n't work for the schools challenge cymru scheme any more , they work for our regional school improvement services . so , we 're absolutely determined . the things that we have learned , as always , are around leadership . it is absolutely key and crucial to have strong , capable school leadership as a driver for change within the system . we 're looking at systems and processes , so , actually , has a school got in place comprehensive systems of tracking and processes within the school ? we 're looking at the teacher quality—how can we ensure that we have got consistent strategies in place to drive up pedagogy and teacher quality in the classroom ? collaborative activity—again , absolutely key . a school can not see itself in isolation , and one of the key themes of the national mission is a self-improving system , so , collaborative working where schools are looking outside of each other , learning from best practice from other schools . so , there are lots of things that we 've drawn from the evaluation that you will see as key themes running through the national mission , and , as i said , it 's no coincidence that our really good people that were working in schools challenge cymru are now working for the regional consortia , being able to use that expertise not just for a very small proportion of our schools—but that expertise is available to all our schools . llyr gruffydd am: although estyn has told us , of course , that you ca n't expect the consortia to really carry on with that level of intervention and the same kind of intensity as was provided previously , so i 'm just wondering— kirsty williams am: in what way ? llyr gruffydd am: well , we were told by estyn in evidence that they did n't necessarily think that we could expect the consortia to provide the same type of tailored support , and certainly the level of intensity with the improvement boards and everything— kirsty williams am: well , the improvement boards are carrying on , so the improvement boards still exist , and i would—not that i want to argue with estyn— llyr gruffydd am: well , feel free ; this is your opportunity to do so if you— kirsty williams am: what i would say is that those improvement boards are staying on , and our schools categorisation system is used to identify the level of support . now , if you 're a red school , that gives you the entitlement to 25 days of support . that is more than you would have got under the schools challenge cymru programme , which would 've been 20 days . so , actually , moving to this system allows us to really focus in on those schools that need that intensive level of support . and what 's important for me , llyr , in this , okay , is that those schools are not necessarily just the schools that were in the programme . our system now of challenge , advice and support allows us to target resources across all of our schools and across all of our sectors , because you 'll be aware that schools challenge was only available to secondary schools , not available to primary schools . what our system now allows us to do , via the schools categorisation , is to identify schools , wherever they are in wales and whatever sector they 're in , to have that intensive level of support that they need to make improvements . llyr gruffydd am: so , you 're confident that that level of momentum is continuing through the consortia that was previously enjoyed by those particular schools , and you 're also confident that there is minimal risk that they 'll slip back to where they were , potentially , or at least part of the way back . kirsty williams am: well , actually , there are some really good examples of some of the schools challenge cymru schools making that sustained improvement now that the programme has come to an end . you only have to look at tredegar , where we have seen continual improvement and moving up through the categorisation system . that school is now a green school , so they 've been able to sustain their progress at the end of the programme . if we look at armando in eastern high school , again—gosh , my goodness me , we had lots of debates in a previous chamber about the future of eastern . there was one person that said that eastern had to be closed and that the only way forward for that particular school was for it to be shut down , but what we have seen is investment via schools challenge cymru , but ongoing , continual support from the regional consortium , and that school has come out of special measures . i pay absolute tribute to the staff of that school and that community that have done such a good job . so , i 'm absolutely convinced that where we 've got good leadership and good support , some of those schools are making continued , sustained progress even after the end of the programme . the challenge for me is for those schools that schools challenge cymru did n't work for , and we have n't seen that progress—how we can use our school improvement system now to continue to work with those schools to give them the level of support that they need to make a difference . so that 's what my focus is on now : a whole-system approach , rather than choosing 39 schools to get that level of support , when we recognise that there are schools everywhere , potentially , that need intervention , support and challenge , and in the primary sector as well . llyr gruffydd am: okay . so , you would n't agree with a number of—well , the near-unanimous evidence that we 've had from academics , some of whom are government advisers from consortia et cetera , that this kind of programme such as schools challenge cymru would probably need about five years to really have the impact that it was intended to have . kirsty williams am: what i would say is that , from my understanding , from the outset , it was a time-limited programme . the schools were aware of that . there were no surprises that it was supposed to be a time-limited programme . evidence from across the uk showed that school challenge programmes have differed in time . so , for instance , manchester 's challenge was a three-year programme . so , there 's no consensus about how many years you need to run a programme for . the previous minister was quite clear about the time-limited nature of the programme . that 's not to say it was the wrong decision , because what 's important , and an ongoing legacy of the programme , was the investment in regional school improvement capacity , because at the time our school improvement services and the regions were young , in their infancy . the ability of individual local authorities to make a difference , with so many local authorities in an estyn categorisation , was limited , so one of the ongoing legacies of the programme is that significant investment of over £10 million in the capacity of the regions to be able to continue this support and the school improvement work . llyr gruffydd am: so , how disappointed were you that the money for schools challenge cymru went back into reserves and did n't stay in your envelope , as you described it earlier ? i presume you made a pitch for it . did you make a case for that money to stay within your department ? kirsty williams am: llyr , we are constantly having discussions with the minister for finance around support for the education budget . the minister for finance was quite clear that it was a time-limited programme . we were able to secure investment from the finance minister to be able to secure the programme and run it and phase it out to make sure there was transition support , so as we moved from the schools challenge programme into the regional consortia , there were resources to do that . llyr gruffydd am: did you feel there was a case to be made to add to the consortia 's resources and be able to continue that level of support that schools had previously had ? kirsty williams am: well , we did make resources available to the regional consortia to do that . as i say , from the outset , the previous minister was very clear it was a time-limited programme . certainly the schools that i talk to— . and i want to be absolutely clear : i have visited many , many schools challenge cymru schools . i have used that opportunity to talk to them about—heolddu being one of them , hefin , which we went to visit , and willows , for instance . i 'm going to one this afternoon—i 'm going to st illtyd 's this afternoon , and i always take— . i 've been to caergybi in anglesey . i always take the opportunity to speak to those teachers about their experience of the programme and to understand and assure myself that they are getting ongoing support that they see as an appropriate level for them . i think i 've done 19 of the schools . lynne neagle am: hefin on this . hefin david am: with regard to it being a time-limited programme , the previous minister was clear that it was a time-limited programme , but it was n't quite as time-limited as you 've decided to be . is that fair to say ? kirsty williams am: no , it was supposed to be a three-year programme at the most . so , there 's no differential between when i decided it was time-limited and the expectations— hefin david am: so the time limit was the same that the previous minister put on it . kirsty williams am: yes . no change . llyr gruffydd am: but mel ainscow did tell us that there was a fade out in that third year—not that people were giving up , do n't get me wrong , but clearly there was n't that commitment coming from government because the decision had been made , and people felt that it was just fizzling out a little bit , and that impacted on the momentum . kirsty williams am: i would n't characterise it as that . i think there certainly was a transition phase when we knew that the programme was moving and schools were moving into a different level of support , but i certainly would n't describe it as a fading out—not at all . as i said , we were aware that the programme was transitioning and we were determined to get that right for those individual schools , and to learn the lessons and , crucially , to be able to apply those lessons right across the board . steve davies: i can see where the perception would come if a programme director like mel was managing the programme right to the end of the three years exactly the same , and it falls off—not a cliff , but it falls off , then the readiness for schools and the readiness in the system to hand over—so part of the shift of focus was that working as a government with the programme in those schools to working with the programme , those schools and the region . so , i think , inevitably , one party might see it as a decrease in terms of emphasis on their work , but it was necessary for the transition . llyr gruffydd am: but does that cast a bit of a shadow over the transition , then—that one key player within that process felt as such , or are you confident that that was managed well and effectively ? kirsty williams am: i think it was managed well , and we were very clear to recognise success where success has been achieved , but not to gloss over where the programme had not made an impact , because that would n't be good for anybody . there was a formal event to close the programme , which gave everybody an opportunity to get together , to be formally thanked , and for , as i said , congratulations to be given to those people who had really made a difference and , crucially , key staff transferred over into the regional consortia . so , for those individuals , they were able to continue their work , but just be able to apply that work on a regional basis rather than just in an individual school . so , i do n't see that there was any fading out , but there was a transition into a new system , and many of those key personnel transitioned into the system with us . lynne neagle am: have you got any figures for the numbers of staff who went from the programme into the consortia ? kirsty williams am: not off the top of my head , but i can let you know . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got darren first , then mark . kirsty williams am: and can i just say , i met with some of them ? i met with a selection of those people who had been involved in the programme to get their feedback on what they felt had gone right , and what they did n't feel had gone right in the programme . so , i took the time not just to meet the figurehead of the programme , but actually to meet the people who were doing the work in the individual schools . sorry . darren millar am: yes , i just wanted to ask you , you mentioned the figurehead there , i assume by 'the figurehead ' you mean professor ainscow . and you 've mentioned as well that you said you wanted to learn lessons from schools challenge cymru , but he told us that nobody had been in touch with him since march of last year in order to have any sort of follow-up engagement , or to have a dialogue about his perspective on what worked , what did n't work , why there were failures in some areas and why there were successes in others . why have n't you sought that level of engagement with the person who was responsible for running the programme ? kirsty williams am: i 've had that conversation with mr ainscow . we had the evaluation of the programme . we 've spoken to the people who were actually involved in running the programme on a daily basis in individual schools . we 've spoken to the regional consortia . we 've spoken to local education authorities . we 've spoken to a wide variety of people to get their insight into the lessons learned , what was valuable and what was not valuable . so , a wide variety of people have been involved in those conversations . darren millar am: but you 've hardly engaged with mr ainscow—with professor ainscow himself . steve davies: i would actually say that i have had meetings— darren millar am: since march of last year . steve davies: yes , since march of last year . i have n't got the exact dates for you . i 've had discussions with mel ainscow , and my line manager at the time , owen evans , also had meetings and discussions . darren millar am: so , when he told us , 'since last march , i literally have had no contact at all with anybody from welsh government ' , he was telling porky pies , was he ? steve davies: that 's not my recollection . i 'll go back and check for you . lynne neagle am: if you could check and let us know , that would be good . mark . kirsty williams am: yes , well , i just talked about the celebration event to formally mark the end of the programme . my understanding was that it was july of last year , so people were engaged in that . and this idea that somebody has been ignored or frozen out is not how i see or how i regard that situation . lynne neagle am: mark . mark reckless am: i have to say , with professor ainscow my impression was he took great , great pride in the work that he 'd done with schools challenge cymru , and i think he really enjoyed the engagement , the work and the positive relations with the welsh government . but i think there was just a degree of disappointment , perhaps , that at least he did n't feel that he 'd been interrogated as much as he might have been about the lessons learned from the programme , and how perhaps to entrench those as well as possible with the regional consortia . i just wonder , cabinet secretary , if you could invite the professor in , perhaps to have a further debrief with you and take account of some of his thoughts and suggestions for what might help in this area . kirsty williams am: well , mark , as i said , i just do n't think it should be right to characterise this as a failure to engage with a single individual . mark reckless am: i 'm not characterising it that way , cabinet secretary . kirsty williams am: as i said , i met with him , steve has met with him , owen evans has met with him , my special policy adviser has met with him and had discussions . so , there has been an ongoing dialogue . but , mark , i hope that i have demonstrated since i took on this job that i am willing to work with a wide variety of people and to tap into their expertise if it can help me to deliver on the national mission . and if the advice to me is that we have n't sufficiently learnt the lessons , then i 'll gladly have another conversation . what i 'm saying to you—and i 'm absolutely confident—is that we have learnt the lessons , we are taking that work and the good practice forward , and we have done that with conversations with a wide variety of people who had a view on this , from individual schools that were involved in the programme , individual people who were working in those schools , local education authorities , some of which have been very scathing about the programme , i should say , regional consortia— . so , the lessons , i am confident , have been learnt . mark reckless am: i 'm glad to hear that , cabinet secretary , but i still say that , listening to professor ainscow 's evidence , there was a perception , at least from him individually , that the programme should not be seen to be a failure , but a desire that the lessons should be learnt and a feeling or exception , at least on his part , that there was more that he still had to contribute to the process . and just to take one particular example , i think he referred to the schools challenge cymru advisers being very successful in bringing in people who might not otherwise have contributed to this , and the regional consortia have had greater challenges in recruiting people , perhaps in some areas , of the same high standard of some particular individuals , but also from a wide range of different areas that the schools challenge cymru do , and that there could be more to learn in that area as to how to support real excellence and a greater diversity of recruitment for those people . is that something you could perhaps draw on his thoughts further about ? because i think he does feel that he has more to say to welsh government to help in this area . kirsty williams am: firstly , can i say that i have never described the programme as a failure ? i would understand , as someone who has put so much personal investment into the brand of schools challenges , that he would not want anybody to characterise that particular approach to school improvement as a failure . and i want to be absolutely clear that i have never described the programme as a failure , and i want to reassure mr ainscow of that . as i 've said , gosh , my goodness me , if you saw my e-mail inbox and you saw the letters that come in , people are never shy in coming forward to give me advice on what i need to do , what i need to do next , what i 'm doing right , what i 'm doing wrong , and , you know , our doors are always open to listen to people who have interesting things to say about how we can deliver our educational mission . so , people are n't slow in coming forward , i can assure you , with advice . lynne neagle am: julie . julie morgan am: just very quickly . i 'm sure the minister is aware that cardiff put extra funds of its own in to continue schools challenge cymru advisers . so , obviously , they appreciated the value of the scheme , but it does query whether it should have gone on longer . kirsty williams am: julie , i think , to be fair , there are some people who think the scheme was absolutely fantastic . i 've had feedback from people who did n't think the scheme was helpful at all—in fact , they felt it was a hindrance . i 'm very much of the view that the scheme worked really well for some schools in some areas and had less impact in some areas . there is a mixed picture . what 's important to me is that we understand what it was that led those schools to make those big changes , how we can—like mark talked about , the expertise—how we can keep that expertise in the system , and how we can apply the lessons to all schools . lynne neagle am: the next questions , and the final questions , are from john . so , we 're going to need succinct questions and succinct answers . john griffiths am: some questions on regional consortia , cabinet secretary , and , first of all , the role that you believe they should play and how schools use pdg . kirsty williams am: well , it 's an absolute— . it 's one of the things that i have been very clear to the regional consortia that i expect their challenge and support advisers to be asking schools about . so , one of the conversations that they need to have when they are in schools is exploring , with that school , how they are using their pdg , and how they 're demonstrating an impact for those resources . so , it 's a fundamental role for the challenge and support advisers in the regional consortia in their school improvement work . it 's crucial . john griffiths am: that sort of brings to mind some of the research that 's been done on the role of the challenge advisers , cabinet secretary , which suggested that they 're not actually challenging schools in that way , and that there 's very little evidence of schools changing their decisions on the use of pdg as a result of any challenge from those challenge advisers . so , how would you respond to those findings ? kirsty williams am: well , as i said , in my scrutiny of the role and success of our regional consortia , i specifically asked them about free-school-meal performance and the use of pdg within their particular region . i think there is increasing evidence to suggest that good use is being made of that resource , and i think that is being fed back into us . estyn tell us that it 's one of the areas of school expenditure that is closely linked to research and an evidence base . but , clearly , there is more to do , and that 's why we have appointed the new regional advisers for pdg going forward , because we think there can be improvements in how this agenda can be supported at a regional level . john griffiths am: okay . so , you would recognise the findings from that research . kirsty williams am: yes . there 's always more that we can do , and we are strengthening that role by the appointment of the new regional pdg advisers , so that individual school challenge advisers know what they should be looking for , know what they should be doing , and there is a regional approach to good practice . john griffiths am: okay . could you tell the committee , cabinet secretary , how effective you believe the relationship was between the schools challenge cymru programme and the regional consortia 's school improvement functions , and to what extent it varied by region ? kirsty williams am: i think it 's fair to say that , on occasion , i have received feedback that there was a conflict between what was going on at an individual school under the school improvement programme and whether , then , they welcomed support from the regional consortia as part of that . so , in some cases , if we 're being absolutely honest , there could sometimes be tensions between the two , but in most cases , the relationship was very , very positive and there was continuous feedback between the work going on in the schools under the programme and the regional consortia challenge advisers . but i 'm going to be blunt and honest with people—in some cases , it has been reported to me—it 's only anecdotal evidence ; i have n't got hard and fast evidence—that there sometimes was a conflict : 'we 're a school challenge school so we do n't need to participate or listen to any advice that 's coming from the regional consortia . ' or , a local education authority said to me , 'we felt that we could n't get involved in that school anymore because it was part of a different programme . ' those were isolated incidents , and , as i said , it 's only anecdotal feedback . in most cases , the relationship was a very positive one . steve davies: just very quickly , i think that , across the board , it was more complex in the beginning , getting— [ inaudible. ] . but when the programme itself recognised that they needed to work with the regions , and the regions needed to work with them—and i think mel ainscow in his evidence referred to this—it strengthened after some early challenges . i think mel ainscow was working in a number of regions—i ca n't remember which ones—so he 's established relationships— [ interruption . ] sorry ? kirsty williams am: central south . steve davies: central south . he has already been working in that , so i think it possibly had a stronger springboard in terms of the early working . kirsty williams am: because he already had relationships that he had already developed in that particular region . as always , with many of these things , it 's about individuals and relationships . john griffiths am: okay . finally from me , cabinet secretary : in 2015-16 , estyn reported on regional consortia not sufficiently focusing on particular groups of pupils and tracking their outcomes—for example , vulnerable pupils . i just wonder what you are able to tell us in terms of to what extent there has been necessary progress since 2015-16 . kirsty williams am: okay . well , i think it 's important to recognise that all four consortia underwent monitoring visits in the autumn of last year , of 2017 , which were n't reflected in the estyn annual report for 2015-16. estyn , through these 2017 inspections , have said that three out of the four regional consortia are making strong progress in their particular work , and we are continuing , as welsh government , to work with the other regional consortia to address the findings of the estyn report . john griffiths am: and that would include these particular issues . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . the committee probably has n't had an opportunity to see , but , only this morning , estyn has released a report on more able and talented , and has positive things to say in the field of more able and talented , which was being asked about earlier by members—you know , evidence of improved working and support in that particular arena . but , again , we need to ensure a consistency across all the regions , and that the findings of estyn 's most recent reports into regional performance are followed through . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . as we 've got a couple of minutes left , if i can just jump back to the issue of practical uses of the pdg—because it 's the only thing we have n't really covered and it would be good to get on the record—can i ask to what extent you 'd like to see the pdg used to track the progress of eligible pupils ? and the committee 's heard that there are several different tracking systems and tools used by schools . to what extent is that an issue to do with what the welsh government is promoting ? or is it down to consortia or individual schools ? and do you think there needs to be a more centralised push on how the tracking is undertaken ? kirsty williams am: firstly , can i say it 's absolutely crucial that we track performance , absolutely crucial ? that 's the bedrock . we do n't dictate to individual schools the nature of the system that they should employ in their school . there are a number of different programmes that allow schools to do this , but we are absolutely clear , and best practice and evidence shows us , that individual pupil tracking is key and crucial . and , as i said in the beginning , where we were n't tracking pupils at all , initial investment in pdg was used to establish these systems within schools . again , one of the outcomes from the schools challenge review , and one of the lessons learnt , was , again , the importance of individual tracking of pupils throughout their school career . but we do n't dictate a single system . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . kirsty williams am: but the principle is a really important one . lynne neagle am: okay , and you do n't think there 's more scope to look at what the best system is that can be recommended to schools . kirsty williams am: that 's not something we 're actively looking at . i am actively looking at developing a welsh toolkit around good practice , evidence base and research . at the moment we use the sutton trust toolkit , which is fine and excellent , but we are having active discussions about whether we 're in a position , now , to look at developing a suite of a welsh toolkit to support this agenda , and that 's under active consideration . lynne neagle am: okay . well , we 've reached the end of our session . can i thank the cabinet secretary and the officials for attending and for answering such a wide range of questions ? as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you again for coming . kirsty williams am: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: thank you . okay . item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the minister for children and social care on families first funding . paper to note 2 is a letter from the cabinet secretary for education , updating us on the supply teacher issue . paper to note 3—another letter from the cabinet secretary for education , providing further information following our meeting on 15 february . paper to note 4 is a letter from the wjec on availability of textbooks . paper to note 5—a letter from qualifications wales , also on availability of textbooks . and paper to note 6 is a letter from the cabinet secretary for education to the children 's commissioner for wales , following up on the dialogue that they 've been having about our inquiry . are members happy to note those ? thank you . item 4 , then , is for me to propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

the conference is about an inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes in the wales education system . first , they primarily discussed the pupil development grant , its targeting , eligibility , use and impact . then , the group discussed care of looked-after children and adopted children . they discussed the condition and impact of another student support program the schools challenge cymru program and the advisory role of regional consortia , cabinet secretary .

summarize the extent that the experts consider that the money is being targeted appropriately . </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to this morning 's children , young people and education committee . we 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members who are present if they wish to declare any interests ? okay , thank you . item 2 this morning is our final evidence session for our inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams am , cabinet secretary for education ; steve davies , director of the education directorate ; and ruth conway , deputy director , support for learners division . welcome to all of you , and thank you for your attendance and also for the paper that you 've provided in advance . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions , and the first questions are from llyr gruffydd . llyr gruffydd am: bore da . i just want to start by asking some questions around the targeting of the pupil development grant because , clearly , we 've had a lot of evidence around this apparent blurring of eligibility to an extent . i 'm just wondering how comfortable you are that the money is being targeted appropriately because , clearly , it 's being targeted more widely than just those eligible for free school meals , from some of the evidence we 've had , but also that it seems to be predominantly focused on low-attaining frees—pupils who are eligible for free school meals . kirsty williams am: thank you , llyr . i think it 's important to be absolutely clear that when it comes to individual interventions , those individual interventions should only be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals . but in some cases , schools may use their pdg funding to provide a universal intervention , but we would want to—in challenge advisers ' discussions in schools—we 'd want to have evidence that that universal intervention would have a disproportionate effect on the outcomes for children on free school meals . so , for instance , if i give you an example in your own region , llyr : at brynteg county primary school in wrexham , if you look at that primary school in wrexham , their results for free-school-meal children at the end of their primary school period in school are equivalent to their non-free-school-meal counterparts . so , there is no differentiation in those results . one of the things that they 've used their pdg for is to really focus on the concept of growth mindset in school . so , that 's a universal thing that they 've trained all the teachers in , but what we know is that that has a disproportionate effect on those children who are on free school meals . so , if you 're familiar with the concept of a growth mindset , it 's about really challenging learners to think that , ' i can do things . if sometimes i fail , i pick myself up , i 'm more resilient . ' now , that has been , as i said , trained to all the teachers in the school—it 's an ethos for the whole school—but we have seen that the impact on the free-school-meal children has been even greater , and now they 're at the same level . so , that 's the important distinction . individual intervention per child has to be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals , but sometimes a school will employ a whole-school approach to train their staff , for instance , and that , then , has to demonstrate it has a disproportionate effect on free school meals . so , growth mindset ; it may be attachment disorder training for staff , for instance , where we know it 's of benefit to everybody , but will have particular benefits for that cohort of students . with regard to more able and talented , you know , llyr , that this is an area of concern for me , generally , within the welsh education system ; that we 've not been particularly good at identifying , supporting and driving attainment for those children . i 'm absolutely clear that pdg needs to be used for those children who are eligible to drive potential , whatever the potential of that child is , including more able and talented . and again , i 'll give you an example that has been seen as good practice in pembrokeshire : a window on the world bus , again paid for by schools . i do n't know if you 're aware of it . llyr gruffydd am: we 've heard about that . kirsty williams am: oh , you 've heard about it ; well , it 's a really good example the window on the world . and , again , that 's very much targeted at raising aspirations and giving children who are more able and talented , who are eligible for pdg , those experiences , and to really push them . so , yes , i 'm absolutely clear that pdg should n't just be seen to be getting individuals to the average . for those children who are more able and talented , it should be used to support them— llyr gruffydd am: and we all share those aspirations , i 'm sure , and you pointed to examples of good practice , but of course , it 's not universal , is it , so what i 'm asking is : do you think that the guidance is sufficient as it is ? do you think that there 's a great enough awareness of how the pdg should be used at the coalface ? and also , are you confident that consortia and others have the measures in place to be able to demonstrate that it is being used properly ? kirsty williams am: i think , if we look at what estyn has said about pdg , it does actually recognise that the pdg is being used to push more able and talented children , but as always with the system , llyr , it 's whether we can be sure that that is strategic and that it 's happening across all of our schools . so , you're— llyr gruffydd am: but not just in relation to more able and talented , i 'm referring to the eligibility and the targeting . kirsty williams am: oh , the eligibility . you 'll be aware that , on the advice of sir alasdair , we have employed and appointed new pdg regional advisers , and i think their role is going to be absolutely crucial in spreading that good practice across the region , whether that 's use of pdg for more able and talented , or ensuring that pdg is used in the appropriate way . so , that 's there to provide strategic overall advice . and obviously , we have been very clear with regional challenge advisers , in the relationship and the conversations they 're having with individual schools , that they 're really challenging their schools about the use of pdg , not just in terms of targeting , but the programmes , what the money is being spent on , whether there is an evidence base for that and whether we are clear on impact . so , i think the new regional advisers are going to be crucial in enabling us to ensure more consistent practice across the regions . llyr gruffydd am: so , are you content that eligibility for free school meals is the best measure , really , of identifying which pupils to target ? kirsty williams am: llyr , in the absence of anything better . i 'll be the first person to say that maybe it 's not as absolutely focused , but in the absence of anything different to identify a proxy for need , i think it 's probably the best that we 've got at present . and we will continue to have discussions with local government about whether there are different ways . we have to be mindful . some of the policy levers in this area are out of my hands , so if we look at the roll-out of universal credit , for instance , we 've got officials working very hard at the moment to try and understand what universal credit is going to mean and where we are going to be able to identify relative need , going forward . we have n't had any additional resource as a result of this , but we 're very mindful that , potentially , this has an impact , going forward . and , officials are working all of the time , i must say , in conjunction with the department in england , to understand their thinking in this area so that we are in a position to make some decisions about what a notional eligibility for free school meals will look like going forward , but before i make any decisions , i want to assure everybody that there will be a full public consultation on that . llyr gruffydd am: okay . finally for now , on this issue of once a year , in january , if you 're eligible for free school meals , then you 're in that group for that year . we 've had some quite strong evidence about how difficult that makes longer term planning for a number of schools and we 've also been pointed in the direction of what 's happened in england with the ever 6 , and i 'm just wondering whether you 're giving any thought to maybe changing that a little bit . kirsty williams am: well , we 're certainly giving thought to flexibility . in conversations with alasdair , who is our independent adviser on this agenda , and individual schools , we 're actively giving thought to greater flexibility and maybe longer term projections , so that schools know , for a number of years ahead , what their allocation will be . there are advantages to that system , because you could give that flexibility , you could give that long-term approach , but then , how do you make that responsive if a school suddenly has more children ? we do know that , actually , the number of free-school-meal pupils is dropping . but there can be changes , you know , regional working in areas of north wales in tourism , or maybe in other areas at christmas time , parents are able to get a period of work . so , how can we create a more flexible system ? we 're actively looking at that at the moment . i would n't use it as an ever 6 concept , but as an 'ever 2 ' concept . we have looked at ever 6 , and i 'm going to be absolutely blunt with you : to introduce an ever 6 concept for wales would mean in the region of identifying an additional £40 million . i 'm going to be absolutely straight and blunt with you : we 're not in a position at the moment to be able to identify an additional £40 million to introduce an ever 6. but issues around flexibility , certainly , are actively under consideration . in fact , we 'll be having a discussion later on today about decisions , going forward , for the next two years . llyr gruffydd am: thank you . lynne neagle am: darren on this . darren millar am: it 's just a very brief point in response to the £40 million price ticket that you just put on that . that 's , of course , assuming that you maintain the current level of pdg , yes ? so , if you reduced the level of pdg slightly , but made it available to more individuals , if you like , via allocating it in a different way , then that £40 million price ticket would n't be there , would it ? kirsty williams am: i was asked a question about had i ever considered an ever 6. we have looked at that , we 've priced that up . i have to make decisions in the envelope of resources that are available to me . we could , indeed , change the way in which we allocate pdg money , but we have to do it within the envelope that is available to me , over £90 million . that 's a significant level of investment , but , of course , as always , darren , we could cut the amount per pupil , but that might have quite challenging swings in allocations . what we have done—because what i am clear on is that there was evidence to suggest that in the secondary sector , a great deal of pdg was being focused on years 10 and 11 , especially year 11 , in catch-up provision , and you 'll be aware , because we 've said this in evidence to the committee in the papers , we 've set a challenge to secondary schools to say , 'actually , the majority of your pdg allocation has to be used in key stage 3 . ' now , we have to balance the needs , the moral hazard of turning round to children in years 10 and 11 and saying , 'we're not going to provide catch-up opportunities for you , ' because , clearly , those children need that support . but the evidence and the advice that we 're receiving is : actually , strong focus on early years , primary and key stage 3 , if we get that right , should negate the need for spending money on catch-up at years 10 and 11. that 's why we , in our advice to local authorities and schools , say that we want to see evidence that they 're spending this money earlier on in a child 's career , rather than just a scramble at year 11 to say , 'right , we 've got to get you through your exams . ' darren millar am: okay , but have you actively considered , then , reducing the level you have ? kirsty williams am: we've— ruth conway: sorry—i was just going to say that one of the things is looking at the scope of the definition , and i think it 's about being more flexible with the definition , rather than reducing the amount per head . darren millar am: okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you . if we can go on , then , to talk about some of the practical uses of the pdg , you write in your written paper that 'the majority of schools are making well thought out and appropriate decisions ' on how to use it . but estyn reported that only two thirds of primary and secondary schools make effective use of the pdg . given that we 've had it now for six years , would you not have expected there to be a higher level of schools actually making good use of that funding ? kirsty williams am: well , to flip it on its head , the vast majority of schools , as identified by estyn , are using this money to good effect . so , that 's the way i like to see it—that the vast majority of schools are doing well . what estyn has also indicated is the intrinsic link here to leadership within individual schools , and as you 'll be aware , leadership , improving capacity in leadership and developing leadership talent in the welsh education system is a key priority for me in our national mission . of course , that 's being developed in a different work stream . i think what 's fair to say is that the use of pdg is evolving over time . i think we are seeing , increasingly , more and more schools understanding how best to deploy that money for best effect for students . so , if we 're honest , when pdg first started , i think , in some schools it was spent on investing in tracking of children , because they 'd never thought about tracking these children , they did n't have systems in place to look at the performance of these children , and to have a system in place . so we 've moved now from spending money on the infrastructure around support for fsm children into actual inputs in terms of teaching and learning . we 're also seeing from estyn that , actually , in terms of money following the evidence of what we know works , estyn says that pdg is probably the best example of schools following tried and tested and evidence-based interventions to deploy the money . but clearly we want all of this money to be deployed as well as it can be , and again we come back to the decision i 've made to appoint regional pdg advisers so that we can get that better consistency of approach . we are , in the discussions that i have with the regional consortia about how they challenge individual schools on usage , looking for very clear evidence of schools using the sutton trust toolkit , and we could have a discussion about whether that 's the right thing , because that 's on my mind too . but we want to see schools demonstrating their evidence base , and if they 're not , if a school is n't doing that , okay , so demonstrate to us why you 've made those decisions and , crucially , what are you doing as the school to judge whether that decision is actually making a difference for your individual pupils . so , if you 're moving away from tried and tested interventions , what we know works , if you 're doing something different with your money , okay , you need to justify that and you need to explain how you 're going to demonstrate impact . but i think what we 're seeing is increasing good practice in this area as the pdg develops and as our understanding of our school-to-school working in our self-improving school system also develops . i think we 're seeing better usage of the money year on year . lynne neagle am: thank you . llyr on this . llyr gruffydd am: you mentioned some schools will be moving from the tried-and-tested interventions , really , and i 'm just wondering to what extent that evolution of use of pdg is being driven by cuts to core funding . kirsty williams am: no , i do n't think it 's being driven by cuts to core funding . i think there has been— . one of the biggest impacts of pdg has not been—well , i suppose it is the money in itself , because the money has concentrated the minds , has n't it ? so , one of the most important things that pdg has done is highlight the importance of this agenda within schools , and really raise this up in the thinking of leadership and senior management teams in our schools , and has driven a focus on scrutiny and accountability in the systems that are working with our schools . i think the changing use of pdg reflects the journeys that schools have been on , some of them from a very low base where this was not a priority for them , to better understanding , and as research and as intelligence grows over time in this area , both in wales and outside of wales , schools are increasingly learning to use that evidence to tailor approaches in their schools . llyr gruffydd am: so you would n't accept at all that some of this money 's being used to paper over some funding cracks from elsewhere . because the unions and some others have told us that , whether we like it or not , there is some of that going on . kirsty williams am: as i said , llyr , we 're very clear about the usage that this money can be spent on in terms of individuals or universal application within schools , and that forms an important part of the checks and balances that we have in our system . can we continue to improve , and ensure that more and more of our schools are employing best practice ? yes , we can , and as i 've said , we 've taken steps to put in place the infrastructure to support that . lynne neagle am: thank you . mark 's questions are next . mark reckless am: cabinet secretary , how would you assess the impact of pdg on attendance and hopefully subsequent engagement with education from children who have free school meals ? kirsty williams am: i think what 's important to note is that , as estyn have themselves said , over the period of the last inspection report , we have seen improvements in attendance , but i do think we need to , again , look at how pdg can support this particular agenda . and as always in the welsh education system , there are some excellent examples of how schools use the money to address this . ysgol y preseli in pembrokeshire is a very good example of how they 've deployed their money . forgive me ; i ca n't off the top of my head remember the name of the primary school i visited , again in north wales , where the school has proactively used this money , and they actually send teaching assistants out of school in the morning before the start of the school day , and they actually have a walking bus . they call at homes for children , and they walk the children to the breakfast club . so , they 're proactively going out into the community and making sure that those children are in the classrooms , because the teacher said , 'we recognised we had a problem with attendance . we tried a variety of means of improving that , but in the end we have taken this quite bold step—we actually send the staff out and they create that walking bus , and they walk the children into school ' . they say that they know that , for some of those children , because of the difficult circumstances they and their families are living in , they probably would n't be in school if it was n't for that proactive approach . so , we 're looking again at what more we can do to support this particular agenda in terms of improving attendance , because although , again , there are examples of good practice , there is still a gap between the attendance of free-school-meal pupils and non-free-school-meal pupils . and , of course , we can have the best curriculum in the world with really high-quality teaching , but unless the children are in the classes then we 're not going to make the difference for them . whilst that differential exists , then it 's going to be hard to close the attainment gap for those children . mark reckless am: i was actually quite shocked just reading in advance of this meeting that the proportion attending 95 per cent or more , who have pretty full attendance , was only 35 per cent for free-school-meal children at level 4 , compared to 60 per cent for non-free-school-meal pupils . it still is an extraordinary difference . my colleague here showed me , i think , last week , a graph showing the link between attendance and attainment , in particular . when people were absent , a lot of the— . as i 'm sure you 're aware , there 's a huge connection . what more can pdg do to deal with it ? in the example you give i can see how a school with an awful lot of free-school-meal children could do that , but a lot of the free-school-meal children are actually in schools that do n't have that high a proportion of free school meals , where it would be much more challenging to bring in that type of initiative . kirsty williams am: yes , indeed , and i think it gets more challenging the older the children get . i think it 's more difficult to find interventions that are successful higher up , so key stage 4. so , you can do a walking bus with little ones , ca n't you , but i do n't suppose your average 15 or 16-year-old is going to take very kindly to that . so , you do need a different approach to that . but again , we see in ysgol y preseli the employment of staff to directly work with families of older children to reinforce the messages around , as you quite rightly say , the linkage between attendance and attainment , and really work with individual families to understand the barriers to attendance : what 's going on in the family that is preventing that child from going to school , and what more can the school do to address those situations . but you 're absolutely right ; there is more that we need to do to address this particular agenda of attainment . i do n't know if there 's anything extra you wanted to add , steve . steve davies: there is also another very good example—and i take what you say about where there are small numbers—but in our secondary schools where there are significant numbers , they 're investing pdg in resources like a school nurse and a school counsellor , not just to work with the children but link to other agencies on whom the children and the families are dependent to support them in terms of working with schools . so , it 's something , particularly in our most challenging areas , where it can not just be delivered within the school . so , good use of that resource is being made to employ people to support them in those wider areas . mark reckless am: thank you . to what extent is pdg also used to seek to reduce the higher rates of exclusion for children entitled to free school meals ? kirsty williams am: so , if we looked at permanent exclusions , there is n't a differential , but if we look at temporary exclusions , there we see there is a disproportionate number of children on free school meals that are subject to those exclusions . again , i think what schools employing best practice understand is that you need a multi-agency approach to supporting that particular child . some of those exclusions can be as a result of the need to address other issues going on in a child 's life . so , this is where we come back to the committee 's work , for instance , on mental health and support for children , support for behaviour in school . so , again , it 's a multi-agency approach that i think we need , and , in our good schools , our really , really good schools , there 's a recognition of that need to have a whole team around a child to support that child in education . with eotas , we made some changes last year regarding pdg for eotas . so , for those children who do find themselves in education other than at school , we are providing additional support that previously was not available . mark reckless am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . we 're going to move on now to talk about the impact of pdg on attainment . hefin david has got some questions . hefin david am: it appears that the attainment gap at 2017 has actually widened , in spite of pdg levels . is that correct ? kirsty williams am: yes . so , if you look at it—with the usual caveats about whether you can make direct comparisons on level 2 plus between the exams the year before and the exams that we had last summer—on the face of it , the gap has increased . i think what 's important to recognise , hefin , is a direction of travel . i 'm sure we all want to , because i want to , have a discussion about why children on free school meals were less resilient in the exam system last year . but , if we look at the period that we have been employing pdg , over that period , we have seen a narrowing of the gap . i think what 's quite stark , if we think about it— . so , if we look at where we started from : in 2009 , one in five children on free school meals got level 2 plus—one in five—by 2016 , we had got that down to one in three . obviously , there 's still a way to go , but , sir alasdair , who knows about these things , says that that is a significant improvement . last year , we got some challenges . we need to understand why that happened , but i do think it's— hefin david am: why , do you think ? kirsty williams am: why , do i think ? what i do think is there is no one answer . there is no one answer to this . i think we could look at and we can have discussions around the move from btec to science gcses . i think we have supplied figures to the committee about the significant change in the number of children on free school meals who were n't doing a single science gcse and are now doing science gcses . we can look at the unintended consequences of literature . again , we 've supplied figures . where children have done language and literature , whether that be through the medium of english or through the medium of welsh , there is more resilience . so , it 's that exposure to literacy in all its forms that i think could potentially make a difference . so , i think there 's no one answer to why free-school-meal children were not so resilient last year . we continue to have discussions with qualifications wales to get a better understanding of this . at my next ministerial policy board , in may , we 'll be doing a deep dive into this particular subject . hefin david am: so , to what extent would exam boards be responsible for lack of grade stability ? kirsty williams am: it could be one of the contributory factors . what i think is important is that there is no one , single reason why there seems to be less resilience in this cohort of children . hefin david am: will you be speaking to the exam boards about this and raising concerns ? kirsty williams am: i have written to qualifications wales , we 've had discussions about it , but i 've asked them to formally submit evidence ahead of my policy board for may , where , as i said , we will be doing a formal , deep-dive discussion across the department about these issues . but , again , hefin , what we 've got to be clear on is—while we look at overall factors , you know , our overall national statistic—we did see some schools last year whose fsm performance was better than it had been the year before . so , what was it in those schools that enabled those children to do really well , whereas , in other schools , the performance was different ? even in individual cities , you can see a huge variety of performance . so , take cardiff and swansea , our two biggest cities . you 've got schools in those cities with comparative levels of free school meals . so , you could have really high-performing schools with a very small number of the cohort on free school meals . the difference between those performances in a single city—so , that 's the same local education authority and the same regional consortium—you can see a massive change . there 's one school i can talk to : their free-school-meal performance is 88 per cent . a similar school in the same city with the same proportion of children on free school meals , their performance is down in the 20 per cents . so , i think what 's important is that we ca n't draw broad-brush conclusions . for me , the challenge is to go into individual schools and understand what was happening in that particular school that ensured that their children did really well . we 've got one school in swansea , their fsm performance at gcse level 2 outperforms non-fsm pupils . hefin david am: but we still need to rely on the trends from a distance . if we take your argument that 2017 was an unusual year and the trends up to 2016 were positive , in a few years ' time , when we will be looking back in two years ' time , how are we going to measure this progress , say , in 2019 ? what are we likely to see and what methods are you going to use to measure progress that way ? kirsty williams am: well , you 'll be aware that we are moving away from level 2 plus as a performance measure anyway because of the— hefin david am: so , what performance measures will you use ? kirsty williams am: so , for the lack of sophistication around the level 2 plus , and for the unintended behaviours that that particular performance measure has driven within our schools . i 'll be making a statement shortly to the assembly around a new performance measure for schools . we were , at our most recent secondary heads conference , working with schools to develop that . what 's important to me is that we have a more sophisticated model that looks at school performance for all children . what level 2 plus does is narrow , very much , the focus of schools on an individual part of the cohort , usually the c/d borderline , which is why then we have problems with the number of students getting a b grade or above . we have marked success in our schools by saying to schools that a c is good enough . well , if a child gets a c but came to you in year 7 and they were destined to get an e , yes , indeed , a c is a success , because you 've moved that child on ; but , if that child came to you destined to get an a * and gets a c , then we have n't done a good job by that particular child . so , we need a performance measure that is much more sophisticated , looks at each individual child , tracks that progress , and measures the value added by that school in performance . hefin david am: last question : therefore , should we have confidence in the data up to 2016 ? is there a lack of confidence in that data ? kirsty williams am: no , it 's not a lack of confidence in the data . the data is the data . what i 'm saying is , using that as a performance measure and an accountability measure within our school system may have been right for the time . i think it is now right to have a different way of measuring success in schools . i think that particular set of performance measures has driven certain behaviours—not because ministers wanted that to happen , but as an unintended consequence . i think we can work together with our school system , learning the lessons of international best practice , to develop much more sophisticated accountability and performance measures for individual schools , and , i should say , for the government . so , you will be aware of my intention to issue the first national report card on government performance later on this year . so , this is not about trying to avoid scrutiny . it 's about trying to develop a more sophisticated way , which is in line with our national mission , where every child 's education is valued , and where the impact of the school can be tracked more effectively . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . can i just ask , cabinet secretary , are you still holding on to your target of 37 per cent of free-school-meal pupils achieving the level 2 threshold ? kirsty williams am: well , we 're moving away from the level 2 threshold . so , that 's the first thing to say . so , we will want to develop a new suite , in line with our new accountability measures , as we go forward . so , we will be absolutely continuing to track and evaluate the performance of free-school-meal pupils . when we announce our new accountability measures , i will be in a position to address how we 'll measure the government's performance , and national performance , going forward . but , given the fact that we 're moving away from level 2 plus , then we will need a different set of performance indicators . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the next questions are on looked-after children and adopted children , and i 've got questions from michelle then mark . michelle brown am: thank you . good morning— mark reckless am: i was to come in first , i think . i was about to ask about icf consulting . lynne neagle am: go on then . mark reckless am: i think my questions are first , but , michelle , please do correct me if you were planning to come in before . the pdg for looked-after children does n't quite seem to have the degree of visibility as the pdg for the free-school-meals . i think we had the mori/wiserd survey—only 15 per cent of primary schools and 23 per cent of secondary schools were aware that pdg was targeted at looked-after children . i just wonder—can you clarify on the record here what is the role of schools with pdg for looked-after children as compared to the regional consortia in this field ? kirsty williams am: okay . i think it is absolutely fair to say that most awareness around pdg is around free school meals . there is less awareness around the availability of pdg to support looked-after children . i think that 's probably in the nature of the cohort , so , there are more children subject to free school meals than are subject to being looked after . so , i think that 's part of the explanation . a decision was taken in 2015 to regionalise pdg for looked-after children . my understanding was that the thinking behind that at the time was around a greater strategic deployment of that resource and to try and drive a greater impact than how it was being used previously . so , looked-after pdg is held at a regional level . we have looked-after children pdg co-ordinators—they 're in their second year this year—to look at a regional deployment of that resource . and that resource can be done in a variety of ways , through individual allocation to a school to support an individual child , through to capacity building for the whole system . so , for instance , if i give you an example , in carmarthenshire , there 's been a big emphasis on attachment disorder and training teachers with regard to the impact of attachment disorder . carmarthenshire happens to be one of those local authorities that does quite well in terms of attainment for looked-after children . but , clearly , i have—not concerns . 'concerns ' is n't the right word . but i have asked officials to give greater scrutiny to how that resource has been used in the last year . steve , on my behalf , wrote out to the system , setting out our expectations , but also advising them of the fact we will be asking very detailed questions of accountability for that money . so , what has that money been used on and how can you account for the effect ? but , steve , maybe you can give some greater detail . steve davies: i think the challenge that— . one of the rationales for shifting—not that all the money stays in the region , but having a regional strategic support—was that , historically , the money was going directly with that child to the school . given the quite often rapid turnover of children in schools—the very nature of looked-after children is they do sometimes move through foster parents—historically , what happened , the money lands in the school , because , at that time in the year , when it 's measured , the school gets the money and can spend it on some additional support for staff , but quite often that child moves on to another school and the money does n't transfer . some schools will go through quite a number of years without having a looked-after child and will not think strategically , 'how do i need to support them ? ' so , that was the rationale of the shift . in terms of the implementation of the regional allocation , as of this financial year finishing , we are going into local authorities and regions to evaluate where they 've located the resource , what the impact of that resource has been , so that is reinforced and shared more widely . kirsty williams am: and then , to reassure , it 's not just internally that we 're looking at this . we have a contract with an external agency to do an evaluation— mark reckless am: that 's icf consulting . kirsty williams am: yes . yes , so that was done in the autumn of last year , because , as i said , we had concerns about whether this was really having the effect that was intended . so , my expectation is that we will be in a position to receive that report later on this spring , and of course it would be my intention that that report would be made public for people to have a look at what— mark reckless am: that was commissioned last autumn— kirsty williams am: yes , in november 2017 . mark reckless am: november 2017 . kirsty williams am: so , i 'm hoping to have that published before the summer recess . i 'm very reluctant to say months ; i 've learnt not to say months , because they move . lynne neagle am: i 'm going to go to michelle now , mark , because— mark reckless am: sure . i will come back in if i have anything further to ask here after michelle . lynne neagle am: —both of you asked for these questions , and that 's what the pre-meeting is for . mark reckless am: michelle , i defer to you . lynne neagle am: michelle . michelle brown am: okay , thank you . would you be open , cabinet secretary , to the idea of adjusting the eligibility of the pdg so that pupils who have been looked after or adopted at any point within a previous given period of time would attract the pdg , rather than only if they 're looked-after on a one-off date ? kirsty williams am: as i said earlier , in questions from , i think it was , llyr , who was talking about concepts of concepts of ever 6 , we are constantly looking at how we can get that balance between focus and flexibility for this resource . llyr opened with the question of , 'how can you absolutely ensure that these children are getting the money ? ' , but then there 's also a tension about how can you create some flexibility around the school 's usage of the grant . so , we will look at that . i think there is the issue of where a school would know of a child that was looked after . issues around adoption are slightly more sensitive , because we could n't force a family to tell a school that their child was an adopted child . so , a family may be very open and very keen to explain that to a school , but we ca n't necessarily track as closely children who have been adopted , especially if that adoption happens before the child goes to school . we ca n't be in a position of forcing families to disclose this information if they do n't want to , but we certainly can , as i say , look to strengthen our monitoring arrangements around pdg support for looked-after children and the impact that that 's having . i just think we need to be a bit mindful of people 's privacy in some instances . if they do n't want to divulge that , it would n't be my job to tell a family , 'you have to let us know if your child is adopted . ' lynne neagle am: michelle . michelle brown am: fair enough ; thank you for that answer . the eas consortium 's approach to using the looked-after and adopted pdg is to use it as part of a broader approach targeted at vulnerable learners in general . what are your views on that approach ? kirsty williams am: i 'm a great believer in if we can get it right for our most vulnerable learners , we 'll be getting it right for all of our learners . i gave the example earlier , for instance , of attachment disorder , and , chair , you will know that i have had conversations . one of the emerging themes for me , as i go around visiting schools , is the impact and the growing awareness and the growing numbers of children who have attachment disorder , and how schools are best able to respond to that in their children . so , for instance , as i said about carmarthenshire , there 's been a huge effort to address that in the school sector in carmarthenshire . now , that has a disproportionate benefit for those children , because you 're more likely to see attachment disorder in children who are care experienced , because of the nature of the lives that those children have lived , but that does n't necessarily mean that attachment disorder is exclusively found in those children that are looked after . it can be found in other families as well . so , that vulnerable learner , regardless of their background , will benefit from having teachers who are better trained , understanding and have intervention strategies in place to be able to address that need . steve davies: i think it 's also important to add that this is not one region 's approach ; this is across four regions , so the others— . for example , erw have run a significant programme looking at the impact of adverse childhood experiences on pupils , which has enabled teachers to detect some of the impact of some of those and then considers some of the work they need to do within the school but also with other agencies . so , it is something that's applied consistently across the four regions . kirsty williams am: i was in pil primary school recently where they use their pdg , both fsm pdg , and no doubt an element of pdg for looked-after , for nurture groups . so , for those children who really , really find it very difficult to be in the main classroom , they can have that nurture group experience to address issues around emotional behaviour , feelings , and it gets them in a position where they are able then to join the main classroom because issues around behaviour have been addressed and they 're in a better position to learn . so , again , this is an example of how vulnerable learners in the wider sense can benefit . lynne neagle am: okay . mark , did you have anything you wanted to ask ? mark reckless am: yes . can i follow up on tracking adopted children ? i entirely understand that you ca n't force parents to disclose that their child is adopted . however , my understanding was that , in england , there was a dataset with social services that was shared with schools in a way that i 'm not clear is happening in wales and how , if at all , that links to the pupil level annual school census data . perhaps sort of linked to that , is n't there an argument for making the parents of adopted children in the schools , potentially , with adopted children more aware that adopted children who were previously looked after have this potential grant , and would they not be more willing to disclose this , at least confidentially to the school and government , if they knew there was this upside of doing so ? kirsty williams am: we 're actively looking at whether we should try and find a way of collecting this data , with the caveats that i just gave earlier . we ca n't force parents to divulge information that is a matter for them , nor would i want to . but there is an active discussion going on at the moment about whether we could create a dataset where people divulge this information and we can then track the children through . you 're absolutely right . one of the ways in which we can often encourage take-up , for instance , of free school meals , especially in those communities where there is a sense of reluctance to apply for support—even though people are entitled to it , there 's a reluctance to do it ; sometimes we see this in rural areas— . actually , appealing to the parents by saying , 'actually , this will mean more money for your child 's school budget' is a much more compelling reason why people will apply for it then saying , 'actually , it 's going to help you ' , because they do n't want to be seen being dependent , they do n't want to be seen being helped . but , if you say to them , 'actually , do you know that this means more money for your child 's school ? ' , they go , 'oh , all right then , i 'll fill in the forms now . ' so , you 're right , i think there is something that we could do to make parents understand , in the round , that this has an impact . but we are actively looking at and discussing whether we could create a dataset around adopted children and how we can do that in line with data protection and data sharing . one of the things i am concerned about in the performance of looked-after children generally is how we can , across government , work more closely together . we ca n't see the educational attainment of looked-after children just being a job of education . it 's got to be a job of social services and the health service as well . there 's got to be a joined-up approach to doing that . now , officials were at the ministerial advisory group that 's chaired by david melding on prospects for looked-after children . they were there at the group last week . david tells me that the paper was very positively received by the group . i will be sitting down with david melding to talk through what more we can do on the education side . i think there 's really an appetite between me and the minister for children to get a closer working relationship on this . we ca n't expect schools to do it on their own and alone . and there are things that we can do out there in local authorities to help improve outcomes . it 's not just about the pdg ; it is about , when social services are thinking about a placement , where does the discussion about where children are going to go to school—when does that take place ? do we talk about the placement , move a child and then think , 'oh my goodness me , what are we going to do about the schooling ? ' if you can imagine , the school could have been working really , really hard with a pupil to get them in a good place , to get them being able to access the curriculum , and then social services decide that the placement is being changed . so , we potentially lose all of that . so , a greater involvement in education and better linked-up working in local authorities will help us with this . it ca n't be just the job of the pdg . if we think we can crack this with just pdg , then we 're being delusional . it has to be a cross-government approach at a national level , and at a local government level as well , to get this right . sometimes , data protection—how can we break down some of these barriers between , you know , the school does n't need to , schools should n't see , the entire social services report ? well , maybe the school does need to see some of that background information if they 're going to have an impact for that child . so , there 's more work to do , but it can not be just the job of education on its own if we 're going to make a difference , nor can it just be the job of the pdg to make a difference for those children . lynne neagle am: thank you . julie 's got some more questions on the impact on adopted and looked-after children . julie morgan am: yes , before i go on to those , i just wanted to support , really , what mark was saying about adopted children and how important it is , i think , that the adoptive parents feel able to speak to the school and to give information . because certainly any evidence we 've had from adoptive parents , and generally knowing about what adoptive parents do feel , is that they often feel that there 's a degree of a lack of sensitivity in the school about the issues of adoption . i would certainly support some move towards ensuring that the atmosphere was open in a way that would encourage them to realise that it would be a help for the children if there was an awareness in the school . so , i just wanted to really reinforce that . kirsty williams am: yes , and that would chime with what i hear from many adoptive parents . i 'm just trying to be sensitive by saying we ca n't force people to divulge this information if they do n't want to . julie morgan am: no , but they need to be given the opportunity . kirsty williams am: yes , you 're right . we need to make sure that those parents feel that they can discuss this with school leaders and classroom teachers and explore how best those individual children can be supported , and how best we can support parents . because , again—and i 've said this a lot—after the quality of teaching , the second biggest impact on a child 's educational outcome will be parental engagement . so , being able to create an environment where adoptive parents feel very confident and able to talk about their children 's education is absolutely crucial if we 're going to get that parental engagement that we need for all of our children . julie morgan am: yes . thank you . going on to looked-after children , you say that the latest data on looked-after children 's attainment is extremely disappointing . can you expand on that and what effect the pdg has had in this result , or not had ? kirsty williams am: well , there 's no getting away from it : the way in which we currently measure outcomes for looked-after children , the results are not good enough . it 's a source of huge concern to me that we need to do better for those children . that 's why officials are engaging with the group that david melding is chairing , to make sure that education is integral to that group and it 's not lost sight of . there 's a discussion to be had about the cohort , whether it 's right and correct to compare looked-after children to the main cohort , or whether these statistics are useful in any way . sometimes as well—this is not to make an excuse because , as i 've said in my paper , it 's extremely disappointing , but sometimes it can be really difficult . because the cohort sometimes can be very , very small , it can swing the statistics to look perhaps more dramatic . julie morgan am: i think , generally , when you look at how looked-after children do— kirsty williams am: it 's not good . julie morgan am: —in a much wider evaluation , they 're not doing well , are they ? kirsty williams am: they 're not doing well . so , that 's why we 've got the review , the independent review , into the impact of the pdg in this area . this is why steve is doing the work that he is doing with the regional consortia because , clearly , at the moment , we are not doing what we need to do for that particular cohort of children . i would not make any bones about that at all . steve davies: i think we will not move away from the fact that these children need good gcses to gain employment , so we 'll continue to measure that . i think we need to look at more nuanced evaluations of the data at a lower level . so , for example , there were significant improvements in terms of pdg pupils who got three and four good gcses but did n't get past the threshold . that 's not to cover anything that is not working in terms of improvement , but we will look at the full range and still hold on to the fact that we have to look at a measure that relates to the likelihood of these children going on to further education and training . julie morgan am: and then just one more question about the exclusion rates amongst looked-after children . they are , i understand , over six times more likely to be given a fixed-term exclusion . so , is there any way of trying to address this ? is the pdg used for anything to do with exclusions ? kirsty williams am: we can look at exclusions . we also have to read across about how the whole system works , not just the pdg element of the system . so , we know , for example , that 66 per cent of looked-after learners have some additional learning need , so we ca n't just look at it in terms of this particular source of funding ; we have to look at it at a wider level of support . so , given that the majority of those children will have an aln , how can we make sure that our new aln legislation and our new aln regime meets the needs of these children ? so , i think what we 're looking at , again , is to say that it ca n't be just the job of the pdg . that 's there as an additional level of support , but actually , we 've got to get our aln right . unless we get our aln right , lots and lots of these children are not going to get the support that they need day in , day out via that system . we do know that sometimes , if we 're not addressing aln , then we 're not addressing behaviour issues that then potentially lead to an expulsion or potentially lead to non-attendance . so , we 've got to look at it in the round and recognise the connections between the sometimes quite complex needs that these children have within the school setting , that are not just as a result of the fact that they 're looked after ; they have other needs as well . steve davies: and investment in well-being— kirsty williams am: absolutely . steve is reminding me that that 's why well-being is part of the national mission—to address issues around supporting children with their well-being , which is a way of keeping them in school . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 're going to move on to schools challenge cymru now . llyr . llyr gruffydd am: thank you , chair . i was just wondering what your assessment is as to why some schools made progress and others did n't . kirsty williams am: i think we have to recognise that the 39 schools that were part of the programme were in very , very different places . so , i think one of the reasons why some schools did well was because their needs were not so complex , not so deep-seated and a certain level of intervention was enough to get them moving forward . some schools had very , very different needs . i think , talking to those involved in the programme , as always , we had some support advisers , challenge advisers working with those schools as part of the programme who were really , really excellent and really good , and were the right fit for the school and really drove the school onwards . we had other people employed in the programme who , perhaps , were less effective at driving change within those individual schools . so , what we have is a mixed bag of performance , again reflecting the very different challenges that those schools were facing , which led them to be chosen for the programme in the first place . llyr gruffydd am: yes , okay— steve davies: sorry . one of the other key additional factors was the extent to which there had been recent appointment of a new headteacher to that school just before the programme had started , because— kirsty williams am: leadership is all . llyr gruffydd am: and that was seen as a positive . steve davies: a positive , yes . i think one of the challenges is that sometimes the time it takes to make changes in leadership can be protracted and can be a barrier , sometimes , to the speed with which you can move . but , for a significant minority of the schools , there had been recent new appointments of headteachers , which was seen to be contributing , when you looked at the evaluation , to the speed with which they were able to engage . llyr gruffydd am: the reason i was asking was i wanted to understand what lessons the government is taking from that three-year investment , really , and how , maybe , you 're applying some of those lessons to your wider school improvement programme . i know professor mel ainscow identified six interconnected lessons , although i also note that the cabinet secretary did n't actually meet him for about six or seven months after coming into post . so , i 'm just wondering , can you give us confidence that , actually , you are serious about taking lessons from schools challenge cymru and applying them to the wider school improvement agenda ? kirsty williams am: well , absolutely , llyr . i do n't think anything should be read into when i met the individual concerned , because officials were meeting the individual concerned . individual challenge advisers were meeting with the regions , there was crossover work with the fsm agenda as well , and we are absolutely determined that best practice and those interventions that drove school improvement are embedded in the new support that we have via the regional consortia . it 's no coincidence that some of the best people that were employed by schools challenge cymru are now in the employment of our regional consortia . so , those people that were really good and really made a difference do n't work for the schools challenge cymru scheme any more , they work for our regional school improvement services . so , we 're absolutely determined . the things that we have learned , as always , are around leadership . it is absolutely key and crucial to have strong , capable school leadership as a driver for change within the system . we 're looking at systems and processes , so , actually , has a school got in place comprehensive systems of tracking and processes within the school ? we 're looking at the teacher quality—how can we ensure that we have got consistent strategies in place to drive up pedagogy and teacher quality in the classroom ? collaborative activity—again , absolutely key . a school can not see itself in isolation , and one of the key themes of the national mission is a self-improving system , so , collaborative working where schools are looking outside of each other , learning from best practice from other schools . so , there are lots of things that we 've drawn from the evaluation that you will see as key themes running through the national mission , and , as i said , it 's no coincidence that our really good people that were working in schools challenge cymru are now working for the regional consortia , being able to use that expertise not just for a very small proportion of our schools—but that expertise is available to all our schools . llyr gruffydd am: although estyn has told us , of course , that you ca n't expect the consortia to really carry on with that level of intervention and the same kind of intensity as was provided previously , so i 'm just wondering— kirsty williams am: in what way ? llyr gruffydd am: well , we were told by estyn in evidence that they did n't necessarily think that we could expect the consortia to provide the same type of tailored support , and certainly the level of intensity with the improvement boards and everything— kirsty williams am: well , the improvement boards are carrying on , so the improvement boards still exist , and i would—not that i want to argue with estyn— llyr gruffydd am: well , feel free ; this is your opportunity to do so if you— kirsty williams am: what i would say is that those improvement boards are staying on , and our schools categorisation system is used to identify the level of support . now , if you 're a red school , that gives you the entitlement to 25 days of support . that is more than you would have got under the schools challenge cymru programme , which would 've been 20 days . so , actually , moving to this system allows us to really focus in on those schools that need that intensive level of support . and what 's important for me , llyr , in this , okay , is that those schools are not necessarily just the schools that were in the programme . our system now of challenge , advice and support allows us to target resources across all of our schools and across all of our sectors , because you 'll be aware that schools challenge was only available to secondary schools , not available to primary schools . what our system now allows us to do , via the schools categorisation , is to identify schools , wherever they are in wales and whatever sector they 're in , to have that intensive level of support that they need to make improvements . llyr gruffydd am: so , you 're confident that that level of momentum is continuing through the consortia that was previously enjoyed by those particular schools , and you 're also confident that there is minimal risk that they 'll slip back to where they were , potentially , or at least part of the way back . kirsty williams am: well , actually , there are some really good examples of some of the schools challenge cymru schools making that sustained improvement now that the programme has come to an end . you only have to look at tredegar , where we have seen continual improvement and moving up through the categorisation system . that school is now a green school , so they 've been able to sustain their progress at the end of the programme . if we look at armando in eastern high school , again—gosh , my goodness me , we had lots of debates in a previous chamber about the future of eastern . there was one person that said that eastern had to be closed and that the only way forward for that particular school was for it to be shut down , but what we have seen is investment via schools challenge cymru , but ongoing , continual support from the regional consortium , and that school has come out of special measures . i pay absolute tribute to the staff of that school and that community that have done such a good job . so , i 'm absolutely convinced that where we 've got good leadership and good support , some of those schools are making continued , sustained progress even after the end of the programme . the challenge for me is for those schools that schools challenge cymru did n't work for , and we have n't seen that progress—how we can use our school improvement system now to continue to work with those schools to give them the level of support that they need to make a difference . so that 's what my focus is on now : a whole-system approach , rather than choosing 39 schools to get that level of support , when we recognise that there are schools everywhere , potentially , that need intervention , support and challenge , and in the primary sector as well . llyr gruffydd am: okay . so , you would n't agree with a number of—well , the near-unanimous evidence that we 've had from academics , some of whom are government advisers from consortia et cetera , that this kind of programme such as schools challenge cymru would probably need about five years to really have the impact that it was intended to have . kirsty williams am: what i would say is that , from my understanding , from the outset , it was a time-limited programme . the schools were aware of that . there were no surprises that it was supposed to be a time-limited programme . evidence from across the uk showed that school challenge programmes have differed in time . so , for instance , manchester 's challenge was a three-year programme . so , there 's no consensus about how many years you need to run a programme for . the previous minister was quite clear about the time-limited nature of the programme . that 's not to say it was the wrong decision , because what 's important , and an ongoing legacy of the programme , was the investment in regional school improvement capacity , because at the time our school improvement services and the regions were young , in their infancy . the ability of individual local authorities to make a difference , with so many local authorities in an estyn categorisation , was limited , so one of the ongoing legacies of the programme is that significant investment of over £10 million in the capacity of the regions to be able to continue this support and the school improvement work . llyr gruffydd am: so , how disappointed were you that the money for schools challenge cymru went back into reserves and did n't stay in your envelope , as you described it earlier ? i presume you made a pitch for it . did you make a case for that money to stay within your department ? kirsty williams am: llyr , we are constantly having discussions with the minister for finance around support for the education budget . the minister for finance was quite clear that it was a time-limited programme . we were able to secure investment from the finance minister to be able to secure the programme and run it and phase it out to make sure there was transition support , so as we moved from the schools challenge programme into the regional consortia , there were resources to do that . llyr gruffydd am: did you feel there was a case to be made to add to the consortia 's resources and be able to continue that level of support that schools had previously had ? kirsty williams am: well , we did make resources available to the regional consortia to do that . as i say , from the outset , the previous minister was very clear it was a time-limited programme . certainly the schools that i talk to— . and i want to be absolutely clear : i have visited many , many schools challenge cymru schools . i have used that opportunity to talk to them about—heolddu being one of them , hefin , which we went to visit , and willows , for instance . i 'm going to one this afternoon—i 'm going to st illtyd 's this afternoon , and i always take— . i 've been to caergybi in anglesey . i always take the opportunity to speak to those teachers about their experience of the programme and to understand and assure myself that they are getting ongoing support that they see as an appropriate level for them . i think i 've done 19 of the schools . lynne neagle am: hefin on this . hefin david am: with regard to it being a time-limited programme , the previous minister was clear that it was a time-limited programme , but it was n't quite as time-limited as you 've decided to be . is that fair to say ? kirsty williams am: no , it was supposed to be a three-year programme at the most . so , there 's no differential between when i decided it was time-limited and the expectations— hefin david am: so the time limit was the same that the previous minister put on it . kirsty williams am: yes . no change . llyr gruffydd am: but mel ainscow did tell us that there was a fade out in that third year—not that people were giving up , do n't get me wrong , but clearly there was n't that commitment coming from government because the decision had been made , and people felt that it was just fizzling out a little bit , and that impacted on the momentum . kirsty williams am: i would n't characterise it as that . i think there certainly was a transition phase when we knew that the programme was moving and schools were moving into a different level of support , but i certainly would n't describe it as a fading out—not at all . as i said , we were aware that the programme was transitioning and we were determined to get that right for those individual schools , and to learn the lessons and , crucially , to be able to apply those lessons right across the board . steve davies: i can see where the perception would come if a programme director like mel was managing the programme right to the end of the three years exactly the same , and it falls off—not a cliff , but it falls off , then the readiness for schools and the readiness in the system to hand over—so part of the shift of focus was that working as a government with the programme in those schools to working with the programme , those schools and the region . so , i think , inevitably , one party might see it as a decrease in terms of emphasis on their work , but it was necessary for the transition . llyr gruffydd am: but does that cast a bit of a shadow over the transition , then—that one key player within that process felt as such , or are you confident that that was managed well and effectively ? kirsty williams am: i think it was managed well , and we were very clear to recognise success where success has been achieved , but not to gloss over where the programme had not made an impact , because that would n't be good for anybody . there was a formal event to close the programme , which gave everybody an opportunity to get together , to be formally thanked , and for , as i said , congratulations to be given to those people who had really made a difference and , crucially , key staff transferred over into the regional consortia . so , for those individuals , they were able to continue their work , but just be able to apply that work on a regional basis rather than just in an individual school . so , i do n't see that there was any fading out , but there was a transition into a new system , and many of those key personnel transitioned into the system with us . lynne neagle am: have you got any figures for the numbers of staff who went from the programme into the consortia ? kirsty williams am: not off the top of my head , but i can let you know . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got darren first , then mark . kirsty williams am: and can i just say , i met with some of them ? i met with a selection of those people who had been involved in the programme to get their feedback on what they felt had gone right , and what they did n't feel had gone right in the programme . so , i took the time not just to meet the figurehead of the programme , but actually to meet the people who were doing the work in the individual schools . sorry . darren millar am: yes , i just wanted to ask you , you mentioned the figurehead there , i assume by 'the figurehead ' you mean professor ainscow . and you 've mentioned as well that you said you wanted to learn lessons from schools challenge cymru , but he told us that nobody had been in touch with him since march of last year in order to have any sort of follow-up engagement , or to have a dialogue about his perspective on what worked , what did n't work , why there were failures in some areas and why there were successes in others . why have n't you sought that level of engagement with the person who was responsible for running the programme ? kirsty williams am: i 've had that conversation with mr ainscow . we had the evaluation of the programme . we 've spoken to the people who were actually involved in running the programme on a daily basis in individual schools . we 've spoken to the regional consortia . we 've spoken to local education authorities . we 've spoken to a wide variety of people to get their insight into the lessons learned , what was valuable and what was not valuable . so , a wide variety of people have been involved in those conversations . darren millar am: but you 've hardly engaged with mr ainscow—with professor ainscow himself . steve davies: i would actually say that i have had meetings— darren millar am: since march of last year . steve davies: yes , since march of last year . i have n't got the exact dates for you . i 've had discussions with mel ainscow , and my line manager at the time , owen evans , also had meetings and discussions . darren millar am: so , when he told us , 'since last march , i literally have had no contact at all with anybody from welsh government ' , he was telling porky pies , was he ? steve davies: that 's not my recollection . i 'll go back and check for you . lynne neagle am: if you could check and let us know , that would be good . mark . kirsty williams am: yes , well , i just talked about the celebration event to formally mark the end of the programme . my understanding was that it was july of last year , so people were engaged in that . and this idea that somebody has been ignored or frozen out is not how i see or how i regard that situation . lynne neagle am: mark . mark reckless am: i have to say , with professor ainscow my impression was he took great , great pride in the work that he 'd done with schools challenge cymru , and i think he really enjoyed the engagement , the work and the positive relations with the welsh government . but i think there was just a degree of disappointment , perhaps , that at least he did n't feel that he 'd been interrogated as much as he might have been about the lessons learned from the programme , and how perhaps to entrench those as well as possible with the regional consortia . i just wonder , cabinet secretary , if you could invite the professor in , perhaps to have a further debrief with you and take account of some of his thoughts and suggestions for what might help in this area . kirsty williams am: well , mark , as i said , i just do n't think it should be right to characterise this as a failure to engage with a single individual . mark reckless am: i 'm not characterising it that way , cabinet secretary . kirsty williams am: as i said , i met with him , steve has met with him , owen evans has met with him , my special policy adviser has met with him and had discussions . so , there has been an ongoing dialogue . but , mark , i hope that i have demonstrated since i took on this job that i am willing to work with a wide variety of people and to tap into their expertise if it can help me to deliver on the national mission . and if the advice to me is that we have n't sufficiently learnt the lessons , then i 'll gladly have another conversation . what i 'm saying to you—and i 'm absolutely confident—is that we have learnt the lessons , we are taking that work and the good practice forward , and we have done that with conversations with a wide variety of people who had a view on this , from individual schools that were involved in the programme , individual people who were working in those schools , local education authorities , some of which have been very scathing about the programme , i should say , regional consortia— . so , the lessons , i am confident , have been learnt . mark reckless am: i 'm glad to hear that , cabinet secretary , but i still say that , listening to professor ainscow 's evidence , there was a perception , at least from him individually , that the programme should not be seen to be a failure , but a desire that the lessons should be learnt and a feeling or exception , at least on his part , that there was more that he still had to contribute to the process . and just to take one particular example , i think he referred to the schools challenge cymru advisers being very successful in bringing in people who might not otherwise have contributed to this , and the regional consortia have had greater challenges in recruiting people , perhaps in some areas , of the same high standard of some particular individuals , but also from a wide range of different areas that the schools challenge cymru do , and that there could be more to learn in that area as to how to support real excellence and a greater diversity of recruitment for those people . is that something you could perhaps draw on his thoughts further about ? because i think he does feel that he has more to say to welsh government to help in this area . kirsty williams am: firstly , can i say that i have never described the programme as a failure ? i would understand , as someone who has put so much personal investment into the brand of schools challenges , that he would not want anybody to characterise that particular approach to school improvement as a failure . and i want to be absolutely clear that i have never described the programme as a failure , and i want to reassure mr ainscow of that . as i 've said , gosh , my goodness me , if you saw my e-mail inbox and you saw the letters that come in , people are never shy in coming forward to give me advice on what i need to do , what i need to do next , what i 'm doing right , what i 'm doing wrong , and , you know , our doors are always open to listen to people who have interesting things to say about how we can deliver our educational mission . so , people are n't slow in coming forward , i can assure you , with advice . lynne neagle am: julie . julie morgan am: just very quickly . i 'm sure the minister is aware that cardiff put extra funds of its own in to continue schools challenge cymru advisers . so , obviously , they appreciated the value of the scheme , but it does query whether it should have gone on longer . kirsty williams am: julie , i think , to be fair , there are some people who think the scheme was absolutely fantastic . i 've had feedback from people who did n't think the scheme was helpful at all—in fact , they felt it was a hindrance . i 'm very much of the view that the scheme worked really well for some schools in some areas and had less impact in some areas . there is a mixed picture . what 's important to me is that we understand what it was that led those schools to make those big changes , how we can—like mark talked about , the expertise—how we can keep that expertise in the system , and how we can apply the lessons to all schools . lynne neagle am: the next questions , and the final questions , are from john . so , we 're going to need succinct questions and succinct answers . john griffiths am: some questions on regional consortia , cabinet secretary , and , first of all , the role that you believe they should play and how schools use pdg . kirsty williams am: well , it 's an absolute— . it 's one of the things that i have been very clear to the regional consortia that i expect their challenge and support advisers to be asking schools about . so , one of the conversations that they need to have when they are in schools is exploring , with that school , how they are using their pdg , and how they 're demonstrating an impact for those resources . so , it 's a fundamental role for the challenge and support advisers in the regional consortia in their school improvement work . it 's crucial . john griffiths am: that sort of brings to mind some of the research that 's been done on the role of the challenge advisers , cabinet secretary , which suggested that they 're not actually challenging schools in that way , and that there 's very little evidence of schools changing their decisions on the use of pdg as a result of any challenge from those challenge advisers . so , how would you respond to those findings ? kirsty williams am: well , as i said , in my scrutiny of the role and success of our regional consortia , i specifically asked them about free-school-meal performance and the use of pdg within their particular region . i think there is increasing evidence to suggest that good use is being made of that resource , and i think that is being fed back into us . estyn tell us that it 's one of the areas of school expenditure that is closely linked to research and an evidence base . but , clearly , there is more to do , and that 's why we have appointed the new regional advisers for pdg going forward , because we think there can be improvements in how this agenda can be supported at a regional level . john griffiths am: okay . so , you would recognise the findings from that research . kirsty williams am: yes . there 's always more that we can do , and we are strengthening that role by the appointment of the new regional pdg advisers , so that individual school challenge advisers know what they should be looking for , know what they should be doing , and there is a regional approach to good practice . john griffiths am: okay . could you tell the committee , cabinet secretary , how effective you believe the relationship was between the schools challenge cymru programme and the regional consortia 's school improvement functions , and to what extent it varied by region ? kirsty williams am: i think it 's fair to say that , on occasion , i have received feedback that there was a conflict between what was going on at an individual school under the school improvement programme and whether , then , they welcomed support from the regional consortia as part of that . so , in some cases , if we 're being absolutely honest , there could sometimes be tensions between the two , but in most cases , the relationship was very , very positive and there was continuous feedback between the work going on in the schools under the programme and the regional consortia challenge advisers . but i 'm going to be blunt and honest with people—in some cases , it has been reported to me—it 's only anecdotal evidence ; i have n't got hard and fast evidence—that there sometimes was a conflict : 'we 're a school challenge school so we do n't need to participate or listen to any advice that 's coming from the regional consortia . ' or , a local education authority said to me , 'we felt that we could n't get involved in that school anymore because it was part of a different programme . ' those were isolated incidents , and , as i said , it 's only anecdotal feedback . in most cases , the relationship was a very positive one . steve davies: just very quickly , i think that , across the board , it was more complex in the beginning , getting— [ inaudible. ] . but when the programme itself recognised that they needed to work with the regions , and the regions needed to work with them—and i think mel ainscow in his evidence referred to this—it strengthened after some early challenges . i think mel ainscow was working in a number of regions—i ca n't remember which ones—so he 's established relationships— [ interruption . ] sorry ? kirsty williams am: central south . steve davies: central south . he has already been working in that , so i think it possibly had a stronger springboard in terms of the early working . kirsty williams am: because he already had relationships that he had already developed in that particular region . as always , with many of these things , it 's about individuals and relationships . john griffiths am: okay . finally from me , cabinet secretary : in 2015-16 , estyn reported on regional consortia not sufficiently focusing on particular groups of pupils and tracking their outcomes—for example , vulnerable pupils . i just wonder what you are able to tell us in terms of to what extent there has been necessary progress since 2015-16 . kirsty williams am: okay . well , i think it 's important to recognise that all four consortia underwent monitoring visits in the autumn of last year , of 2017 , which were n't reflected in the estyn annual report for 2015-16. estyn , through these 2017 inspections , have said that three out of the four regional consortia are making strong progress in their particular work , and we are continuing , as welsh government , to work with the other regional consortia to address the findings of the estyn report . john griffiths am: and that would include these particular issues . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . the committee probably has n't had an opportunity to see , but , only this morning , estyn has released a report on more able and talented , and has positive things to say in the field of more able and talented , which was being asked about earlier by members—you know , evidence of improved working and support in that particular arena . but , again , we need to ensure a consistency across all the regions , and that the findings of estyn 's most recent reports into regional performance are followed through . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . as we 've got a couple of minutes left , if i can just jump back to the issue of practical uses of the pdg—because it 's the only thing we have n't really covered and it would be good to get on the record—can i ask to what extent you 'd like to see the pdg used to track the progress of eligible pupils ? and the committee 's heard that there are several different tracking systems and tools used by schools . to what extent is that an issue to do with what the welsh government is promoting ? or is it down to consortia or individual schools ? and do you think there needs to be a more centralised push on how the tracking is undertaken ? kirsty williams am: firstly , can i say it 's absolutely crucial that we track performance , absolutely crucial ? that 's the bedrock . we do n't dictate to individual schools the nature of the system that they should employ in their school . there are a number of different programmes that allow schools to do this , but we are absolutely clear , and best practice and evidence shows us , that individual pupil tracking is key and crucial . and , as i said in the beginning , where we were n't tracking pupils at all , initial investment in pdg was used to establish these systems within schools . again , one of the outcomes from the schools challenge review , and one of the lessons learnt , was , again , the importance of individual tracking of pupils throughout their school career . but we do n't dictate a single system . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . kirsty williams am: but the principle is a really important one . lynne neagle am: okay , and you do n't think there 's more scope to look at what the best system is that can be recommended to schools . kirsty williams am: that 's not something we 're actively looking at . i am actively looking at developing a welsh toolkit around good practice , evidence base and research . at the moment we use the sutton trust toolkit , which is fine and excellent , but we are having active discussions about whether we 're in a position , now , to look at developing a suite of a welsh toolkit to support this agenda , and that 's under active consideration . lynne neagle am: okay . well , we 've reached the end of our session . can i thank the cabinet secretary and the officials for attending and for answering such a wide range of questions ? as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you again for coming . kirsty williams am: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: thank you . okay . item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the minister for children and social care on families first funding . paper to note 2 is a letter from the cabinet secretary for education , updating us on the supply teacher issue . paper to note 3—another letter from the cabinet secretary for education , providing further information following our meeting on 15 february . paper to note 4 is a letter from the wjec on availability of textbooks . paper to note 5—a letter from qualifications wales , also on availability of textbooks . and paper to note 6 is a letter from the cabinet secretary for education to the children 's commissioner for wales , following up on the dialogue that they 've been having about our inquiry . are members happy to note those ? thank you . item 4 , then , is for me to propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

according to kirsty williams , when it comes to individual interventions , those individual interventions of pdg should only be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals ; but in some cases , schools may use their pdg funding to provide a universal intervention . one of the things that they 've used pdg for is the focus on the concept of growth mindset in school , a universal thing that they 've trained all the teachers in . there are some other ways to drive the potential of talented and able children , like the example of `` a window on the world bus '' paid for by schools .

what do the group think of the question whether the eligibility for free school meals is the best measure ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to this morning 's children , young people and education committee . we 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members who are present if they wish to declare any interests ? okay , thank you . item 2 this morning is our final evidence session for our inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams am , cabinet secretary for education ; steve davies , director of the education directorate ; and ruth conway , deputy director , support for learners division . welcome to all of you , and thank you for your attendance and also for the paper that you 've provided in advance . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions , and the first questions are from llyr gruffydd . llyr gruffydd am: bore da . i just want to start by asking some questions around the targeting of the pupil development grant because , clearly , we 've had a lot of evidence around this apparent blurring of eligibility to an extent . i 'm just wondering how comfortable you are that the money is being targeted appropriately because , clearly , it 's being targeted more widely than just those eligible for free school meals , from some of the evidence we 've had , but also that it seems to be predominantly focused on low-attaining frees—pupils who are eligible for free school meals . kirsty williams am: thank you , llyr . i think it 's important to be absolutely clear that when it comes to individual interventions , those individual interventions should only be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals . but in some cases , schools may use their pdg funding to provide a universal intervention , but we would want to—in challenge advisers ' discussions in schools—we 'd want to have evidence that that universal intervention would have a disproportionate effect on the outcomes for children on free school meals . so , for instance , if i give you an example in your own region , llyr : at brynteg county primary school in wrexham , if you look at that primary school in wrexham , their results for free-school-meal children at the end of their primary school period in school are equivalent to their non-free-school-meal counterparts . so , there is no differentiation in those results . one of the things that they 've used their pdg for is to really focus on the concept of growth mindset in school . so , that 's a universal thing that they 've trained all the teachers in , but what we know is that that has a disproportionate effect on those children who are on free school meals . so , if you 're familiar with the concept of a growth mindset , it 's about really challenging learners to think that , ' i can do things . if sometimes i fail , i pick myself up , i 'm more resilient . ' now , that has been , as i said , trained to all the teachers in the school—it 's an ethos for the whole school—but we have seen that the impact on the free-school-meal children has been even greater , and now they 're at the same level . so , that 's the important distinction . individual intervention per child has to be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals , but sometimes a school will employ a whole-school approach to train their staff , for instance , and that , then , has to demonstrate it has a disproportionate effect on free school meals . so , growth mindset ; it may be attachment disorder training for staff , for instance , where we know it 's of benefit to everybody , but will have particular benefits for that cohort of students . with regard to more able and talented , you know , llyr , that this is an area of concern for me , generally , within the welsh education system ; that we 've not been particularly good at identifying , supporting and driving attainment for those children . i 'm absolutely clear that pdg needs to be used for those children who are eligible to drive potential , whatever the potential of that child is , including more able and talented . and again , i 'll give you an example that has been seen as good practice in pembrokeshire : a window on the world bus , again paid for by schools . i do n't know if you 're aware of it . llyr gruffydd am: we 've heard about that . kirsty williams am: oh , you 've heard about it ; well , it 's a really good example the window on the world . and , again , that 's very much targeted at raising aspirations and giving children who are more able and talented , who are eligible for pdg , those experiences , and to really push them . so , yes , i 'm absolutely clear that pdg should n't just be seen to be getting individuals to the average . for those children who are more able and talented , it should be used to support them— llyr gruffydd am: and we all share those aspirations , i 'm sure , and you pointed to examples of good practice , but of course , it 's not universal , is it , so what i 'm asking is : do you think that the guidance is sufficient as it is ? do you think that there 's a great enough awareness of how the pdg should be used at the coalface ? and also , are you confident that consortia and others have the measures in place to be able to demonstrate that it is being used properly ? kirsty williams am: i think , if we look at what estyn has said about pdg , it does actually recognise that the pdg is being used to push more able and talented children , but as always with the system , llyr , it 's whether we can be sure that that is strategic and that it 's happening across all of our schools . so , you're— llyr gruffydd am: but not just in relation to more able and talented , i 'm referring to the eligibility and the targeting . kirsty williams am: oh , the eligibility . you 'll be aware that , on the advice of sir alasdair , we have employed and appointed new pdg regional advisers , and i think their role is going to be absolutely crucial in spreading that good practice across the region , whether that 's use of pdg for more able and talented , or ensuring that pdg is used in the appropriate way . so , that 's there to provide strategic overall advice . and obviously , we have been very clear with regional challenge advisers , in the relationship and the conversations they 're having with individual schools , that they 're really challenging their schools about the use of pdg , not just in terms of targeting , but the programmes , what the money is being spent on , whether there is an evidence base for that and whether we are clear on impact . so , i think the new regional advisers are going to be crucial in enabling us to ensure more consistent practice across the regions . llyr gruffydd am: so , are you content that eligibility for free school meals is the best measure , really , of identifying which pupils to target ? kirsty williams am: llyr , in the absence of anything better . i 'll be the first person to say that maybe it 's not as absolutely focused , but in the absence of anything different to identify a proxy for need , i think it 's probably the best that we 've got at present . and we will continue to have discussions with local government about whether there are different ways . we have to be mindful . some of the policy levers in this area are out of my hands , so if we look at the roll-out of universal credit , for instance , we 've got officials working very hard at the moment to try and understand what universal credit is going to mean and where we are going to be able to identify relative need , going forward . we have n't had any additional resource as a result of this , but we 're very mindful that , potentially , this has an impact , going forward . and , officials are working all of the time , i must say , in conjunction with the department in england , to understand their thinking in this area so that we are in a position to make some decisions about what a notional eligibility for free school meals will look like going forward , but before i make any decisions , i want to assure everybody that there will be a full public consultation on that . llyr gruffydd am: okay . finally for now , on this issue of once a year , in january , if you 're eligible for free school meals , then you 're in that group for that year . we 've had some quite strong evidence about how difficult that makes longer term planning for a number of schools and we 've also been pointed in the direction of what 's happened in england with the ever 6 , and i 'm just wondering whether you 're giving any thought to maybe changing that a little bit . kirsty williams am: well , we 're certainly giving thought to flexibility . in conversations with alasdair , who is our independent adviser on this agenda , and individual schools , we 're actively giving thought to greater flexibility and maybe longer term projections , so that schools know , for a number of years ahead , what their allocation will be . there are advantages to that system , because you could give that flexibility , you could give that long-term approach , but then , how do you make that responsive if a school suddenly has more children ? we do know that , actually , the number of free-school-meal pupils is dropping . but there can be changes , you know , regional working in areas of north wales in tourism , or maybe in other areas at christmas time , parents are able to get a period of work . so , how can we create a more flexible system ? we 're actively looking at that at the moment . i would n't use it as an ever 6 concept , but as an 'ever 2 ' concept . we have looked at ever 6 , and i 'm going to be absolutely blunt with you : to introduce an ever 6 concept for wales would mean in the region of identifying an additional £40 million . i 'm going to be absolutely straight and blunt with you : we 're not in a position at the moment to be able to identify an additional £40 million to introduce an ever 6. but issues around flexibility , certainly , are actively under consideration . in fact , we 'll be having a discussion later on today about decisions , going forward , for the next two years . llyr gruffydd am: thank you . lynne neagle am: darren on this . darren millar am: it 's just a very brief point in response to the £40 million price ticket that you just put on that . that 's , of course , assuming that you maintain the current level of pdg , yes ? so , if you reduced the level of pdg slightly , but made it available to more individuals , if you like , via allocating it in a different way , then that £40 million price ticket would n't be there , would it ? kirsty williams am: i was asked a question about had i ever considered an ever 6. we have looked at that , we 've priced that up . i have to make decisions in the envelope of resources that are available to me . we could , indeed , change the way in which we allocate pdg money , but we have to do it within the envelope that is available to me , over £90 million . that 's a significant level of investment , but , of course , as always , darren , we could cut the amount per pupil , but that might have quite challenging swings in allocations . what we have done—because what i am clear on is that there was evidence to suggest that in the secondary sector , a great deal of pdg was being focused on years 10 and 11 , especially year 11 , in catch-up provision , and you 'll be aware , because we 've said this in evidence to the committee in the papers , we 've set a challenge to secondary schools to say , 'actually , the majority of your pdg allocation has to be used in key stage 3 . ' now , we have to balance the needs , the moral hazard of turning round to children in years 10 and 11 and saying , 'we're not going to provide catch-up opportunities for you , ' because , clearly , those children need that support . but the evidence and the advice that we 're receiving is : actually , strong focus on early years , primary and key stage 3 , if we get that right , should negate the need for spending money on catch-up at years 10 and 11. that 's why we , in our advice to local authorities and schools , say that we want to see evidence that they 're spending this money earlier on in a child 's career , rather than just a scramble at year 11 to say , 'right , we 've got to get you through your exams . ' darren millar am: okay , but have you actively considered , then , reducing the level you have ? kirsty williams am: we've— ruth conway: sorry—i was just going to say that one of the things is looking at the scope of the definition , and i think it 's about being more flexible with the definition , rather than reducing the amount per head . darren millar am: okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you . if we can go on , then , to talk about some of the practical uses of the pdg , you write in your written paper that 'the majority of schools are making well thought out and appropriate decisions ' on how to use it . but estyn reported that only two thirds of primary and secondary schools make effective use of the pdg . given that we 've had it now for six years , would you not have expected there to be a higher level of schools actually making good use of that funding ? kirsty williams am: well , to flip it on its head , the vast majority of schools , as identified by estyn , are using this money to good effect . so , that 's the way i like to see it—that the vast majority of schools are doing well . what estyn has also indicated is the intrinsic link here to leadership within individual schools , and as you 'll be aware , leadership , improving capacity in leadership and developing leadership talent in the welsh education system is a key priority for me in our national mission . of course , that 's being developed in a different work stream . i think what 's fair to say is that the use of pdg is evolving over time . i think we are seeing , increasingly , more and more schools understanding how best to deploy that money for best effect for students . so , if we 're honest , when pdg first started , i think , in some schools it was spent on investing in tracking of children , because they 'd never thought about tracking these children , they did n't have systems in place to look at the performance of these children , and to have a system in place . so we 've moved now from spending money on the infrastructure around support for fsm children into actual inputs in terms of teaching and learning . we 're also seeing from estyn that , actually , in terms of money following the evidence of what we know works , estyn says that pdg is probably the best example of schools following tried and tested and evidence-based interventions to deploy the money . but clearly we want all of this money to be deployed as well as it can be , and again we come back to the decision i 've made to appoint regional pdg advisers so that we can get that better consistency of approach . we are , in the discussions that i have with the regional consortia about how they challenge individual schools on usage , looking for very clear evidence of schools using the sutton trust toolkit , and we could have a discussion about whether that 's the right thing , because that 's on my mind too . but we want to see schools demonstrating their evidence base , and if they 're not , if a school is n't doing that , okay , so demonstrate to us why you 've made those decisions and , crucially , what are you doing as the school to judge whether that decision is actually making a difference for your individual pupils . so , if you 're moving away from tried and tested interventions , what we know works , if you 're doing something different with your money , okay , you need to justify that and you need to explain how you 're going to demonstrate impact . but i think what we 're seeing is increasing good practice in this area as the pdg develops and as our understanding of our school-to-school working in our self-improving school system also develops . i think we 're seeing better usage of the money year on year . lynne neagle am: thank you . llyr on this . llyr gruffydd am: you mentioned some schools will be moving from the tried-and-tested interventions , really , and i 'm just wondering to what extent that evolution of use of pdg is being driven by cuts to core funding . kirsty williams am: no , i do n't think it 's being driven by cuts to core funding . i think there has been— . one of the biggest impacts of pdg has not been—well , i suppose it is the money in itself , because the money has concentrated the minds , has n't it ? so , one of the most important things that pdg has done is highlight the importance of this agenda within schools , and really raise this up in the thinking of leadership and senior management teams in our schools , and has driven a focus on scrutiny and accountability in the systems that are working with our schools . i think the changing use of pdg reflects the journeys that schools have been on , some of them from a very low base where this was not a priority for them , to better understanding , and as research and as intelligence grows over time in this area , both in wales and outside of wales , schools are increasingly learning to use that evidence to tailor approaches in their schools . llyr gruffydd am: so you would n't accept at all that some of this money 's being used to paper over some funding cracks from elsewhere . because the unions and some others have told us that , whether we like it or not , there is some of that going on . kirsty williams am: as i said , llyr , we 're very clear about the usage that this money can be spent on in terms of individuals or universal application within schools , and that forms an important part of the checks and balances that we have in our system . can we continue to improve , and ensure that more and more of our schools are employing best practice ? yes , we can , and as i 've said , we 've taken steps to put in place the infrastructure to support that . lynne neagle am: thank you . mark 's questions are next . mark reckless am: cabinet secretary , how would you assess the impact of pdg on attendance and hopefully subsequent engagement with education from children who have free school meals ? kirsty williams am: i think what 's important to note is that , as estyn have themselves said , over the period of the last inspection report , we have seen improvements in attendance , but i do think we need to , again , look at how pdg can support this particular agenda . and as always in the welsh education system , there are some excellent examples of how schools use the money to address this . ysgol y preseli in pembrokeshire is a very good example of how they 've deployed their money . forgive me ; i ca n't off the top of my head remember the name of the primary school i visited , again in north wales , where the school has proactively used this money , and they actually send teaching assistants out of school in the morning before the start of the school day , and they actually have a walking bus . they call at homes for children , and they walk the children to the breakfast club . so , they 're proactively going out into the community and making sure that those children are in the classrooms , because the teacher said , 'we recognised we had a problem with attendance . we tried a variety of means of improving that , but in the end we have taken this quite bold step—we actually send the staff out and they create that walking bus , and they walk the children into school ' . they say that they know that , for some of those children , because of the difficult circumstances they and their families are living in , they probably would n't be in school if it was n't for that proactive approach . so , we 're looking again at what more we can do to support this particular agenda in terms of improving attendance , because although , again , there are examples of good practice , there is still a gap between the attendance of free-school-meal pupils and non-free-school-meal pupils . and , of course , we can have the best curriculum in the world with really high-quality teaching , but unless the children are in the classes then we 're not going to make the difference for them . whilst that differential exists , then it 's going to be hard to close the attainment gap for those children . mark reckless am: i was actually quite shocked just reading in advance of this meeting that the proportion attending 95 per cent or more , who have pretty full attendance , was only 35 per cent for free-school-meal children at level 4 , compared to 60 per cent for non-free-school-meal pupils . it still is an extraordinary difference . my colleague here showed me , i think , last week , a graph showing the link between attendance and attainment , in particular . when people were absent , a lot of the— . as i 'm sure you 're aware , there 's a huge connection . what more can pdg do to deal with it ? in the example you give i can see how a school with an awful lot of free-school-meal children could do that , but a lot of the free-school-meal children are actually in schools that do n't have that high a proportion of free school meals , where it would be much more challenging to bring in that type of initiative . kirsty williams am: yes , indeed , and i think it gets more challenging the older the children get . i think it 's more difficult to find interventions that are successful higher up , so key stage 4. so , you can do a walking bus with little ones , ca n't you , but i do n't suppose your average 15 or 16-year-old is going to take very kindly to that . so , you do need a different approach to that . but again , we see in ysgol y preseli the employment of staff to directly work with families of older children to reinforce the messages around , as you quite rightly say , the linkage between attendance and attainment , and really work with individual families to understand the barriers to attendance : what 's going on in the family that is preventing that child from going to school , and what more can the school do to address those situations . but you 're absolutely right ; there is more that we need to do to address this particular agenda of attainment . i do n't know if there 's anything extra you wanted to add , steve . steve davies: there is also another very good example—and i take what you say about where there are small numbers—but in our secondary schools where there are significant numbers , they 're investing pdg in resources like a school nurse and a school counsellor , not just to work with the children but link to other agencies on whom the children and the families are dependent to support them in terms of working with schools . so , it 's something , particularly in our most challenging areas , where it can not just be delivered within the school . so , good use of that resource is being made to employ people to support them in those wider areas . mark reckless am: thank you . to what extent is pdg also used to seek to reduce the higher rates of exclusion for children entitled to free school meals ? kirsty williams am: so , if we looked at permanent exclusions , there is n't a differential , but if we look at temporary exclusions , there we see there is a disproportionate number of children on free school meals that are subject to those exclusions . again , i think what schools employing best practice understand is that you need a multi-agency approach to supporting that particular child . some of those exclusions can be as a result of the need to address other issues going on in a child 's life . so , this is where we come back to the committee 's work , for instance , on mental health and support for children , support for behaviour in school . so , again , it 's a multi-agency approach that i think we need , and , in our good schools , our really , really good schools , there 's a recognition of that need to have a whole team around a child to support that child in education . with eotas , we made some changes last year regarding pdg for eotas . so , for those children who do find themselves in education other than at school , we are providing additional support that previously was not available . mark reckless am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . we 're going to move on now to talk about the impact of pdg on attainment . hefin david has got some questions . hefin david am: it appears that the attainment gap at 2017 has actually widened , in spite of pdg levels . is that correct ? kirsty williams am: yes . so , if you look at it—with the usual caveats about whether you can make direct comparisons on level 2 plus between the exams the year before and the exams that we had last summer—on the face of it , the gap has increased . i think what 's important to recognise , hefin , is a direction of travel . i 'm sure we all want to , because i want to , have a discussion about why children on free school meals were less resilient in the exam system last year . but , if we look at the period that we have been employing pdg , over that period , we have seen a narrowing of the gap . i think what 's quite stark , if we think about it— . so , if we look at where we started from : in 2009 , one in five children on free school meals got level 2 plus—one in five—by 2016 , we had got that down to one in three . obviously , there 's still a way to go , but , sir alasdair , who knows about these things , says that that is a significant improvement . last year , we got some challenges . we need to understand why that happened , but i do think it's— hefin david am: why , do you think ? kirsty williams am: why , do i think ? what i do think is there is no one answer . there is no one answer to this . i think we could look at and we can have discussions around the move from btec to science gcses . i think we have supplied figures to the committee about the significant change in the number of children on free school meals who were n't doing a single science gcse and are now doing science gcses . we can look at the unintended consequences of literature . again , we 've supplied figures . where children have done language and literature , whether that be through the medium of english or through the medium of welsh , there is more resilience . so , it 's that exposure to literacy in all its forms that i think could potentially make a difference . so , i think there 's no one answer to why free-school-meal children were not so resilient last year . we continue to have discussions with qualifications wales to get a better understanding of this . at my next ministerial policy board , in may , we 'll be doing a deep dive into this particular subject . hefin david am: so , to what extent would exam boards be responsible for lack of grade stability ? kirsty williams am: it could be one of the contributory factors . what i think is important is that there is no one , single reason why there seems to be less resilience in this cohort of children . hefin david am: will you be speaking to the exam boards about this and raising concerns ? kirsty williams am: i have written to qualifications wales , we 've had discussions about it , but i 've asked them to formally submit evidence ahead of my policy board for may , where , as i said , we will be doing a formal , deep-dive discussion across the department about these issues . but , again , hefin , what we 've got to be clear on is—while we look at overall factors , you know , our overall national statistic—we did see some schools last year whose fsm performance was better than it had been the year before . so , what was it in those schools that enabled those children to do really well , whereas , in other schools , the performance was different ? even in individual cities , you can see a huge variety of performance . so , take cardiff and swansea , our two biggest cities . you 've got schools in those cities with comparative levels of free school meals . so , you could have really high-performing schools with a very small number of the cohort on free school meals . the difference between those performances in a single city—so , that 's the same local education authority and the same regional consortium—you can see a massive change . there 's one school i can talk to : their free-school-meal performance is 88 per cent . a similar school in the same city with the same proportion of children on free school meals , their performance is down in the 20 per cents . so , i think what 's important is that we ca n't draw broad-brush conclusions . for me , the challenge is to go into individual schools and understand what was happening in that particular school that ensured that their children did really well . we 've got one school in swansea , their fsm performance at gcse level 2 outperforms non-fsm pupils . hefin david am: but we still need to rely on the trends from a distance . if we take your argument that 2017 was an unusual year and the trends up to 2016 were positive , in a few years ' time , when we will be looking back in two years ' time , how are we going to measure this progress , say , in 2019 ? what are we likely to see and what methods are you going to use to measure progress that way ? kirsty williams am: well , you 'll be aware that we are moving away from level 2 plus as a performance measure anyway because of the— hefin david am: so , what performance measures will you use ? kirsty williams am: so , for the lack of sophistication around the level 2 plus , and for the unintended behaviours that that particular performance measure has driven within our schools . i 'll be making a statement shortly to the assembly around a new performance measure for schools . we were , at our most recent secondary heads conference , working with schools to develop that . what 's important to me is that we have a more sophisticated model that looks at school performance for all children . what level 2 plus does is narrow , very much , the focus of schools on an individual part of the cohort , usually the c/d borderline , which is why then we have problems with the number of students getting a b grade or above . we have marked success in our schools by saying to schools that a c is good enough . well , if a child gets a c but came to you in year 7 and they were destined to get an e , yes , indeed , a c is a success , because you 've moved that child on ; but , if that child came to you destined to get an a * and gets a c , then we have n't done a good job by that particular child . so , we need a performance measure that is much more sophisticated , looks at each individual child , tracks that progress , and measures the value added by that school in performance . hefin david am: last question : therefore , should we have confidence in the data up to 2016 ? is there a lack of confidence in that data ? kirsty williams am: no , it 's not a lack of confidence in the data . the data is the data . what i 'm saying is , using that as a performance measure and an accountability measure within our school system may have been right for the time . i think it is now right to have a different way of measuring success in schools . i think that particular set of performance measures has driven certain behaviours—not because ministers wanted that to happen , but as an unintended consequence . i think we can work together with our school system , learning the lessons of international best practice , to develop much more sophisticated accountability and performance measures for individual schools , and , i should say , for the government . so , you will be aware of my intention to issue the first national report card on government performance later on this year . so , this is not about trying to avoid scrutiny . it 's about trying to develop a more sophisticated way , which is in line with our national mission , where every child 's education is valued , and where the impact of the school can be tracked more effectively . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . can i just ask , cabinet secretary , are you still holding on to your target of 37 per cent of free-school-meal pupils achieving the level 2 threshold ? kirsty williams am: well , we 're moving away from the level 2 threshold . so , that 's the first thing to say . so , we will want to develop a new suite , in line with our new accountability measures , as we go forward . so , we will be absolutely continuing to track and evaluate the performance of free-school-meal pupils . when we announce our new accountability measures , i will be in a position to address how we 'll measure the government's performance , and national performance , going forward . but , given the fact that we 're moving away from level 2 plus , then we will need a different set of performance indicators . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the next questions are on looked-after children and adopted children , and i 've got questions from michelle then mark . michelle brown am: thank you . good morning— mark reckless am: i was to come in first , i think . i was about to ask about icf consulting . lynne neagle am: go on then . mark reckless am: i think my questions are first , but , michelle , please do correct me if you were planning to come in before . the pdg for looked-after children does n't quite seem to have the degree of visibility as the pdg for the free-school-meals . i think we had the mori/wiserd survey—only 15 per cent of primary schools and 23 per cent of secondary schools were aware that pdg was targeted at looked-after children . i just wonder—can you clarify on the record here what is the role of schools with pdg for looked-after children as compared to the regional consortia in this field ? kirsty williams am: okay . i think it is absolutely fair to say that most awareness around pdg is around free school meals . there is less awareness around the availability of pdg to support looked-after children . i think that 's probably in the nature of the cohort , so , there are more children subject to free school meals than are subject to being looked after . so , i think that 's part of the explanation . a decision was taken in 2015 to regionalise pdg for looked-after children . my understanding was that the thinking behind that at the time was around a greater strategic deployment of that resource and to try and drive a greater impact than how it was being used previously . so , looked-after pdg is held at a regional level . we have looked-after children pdg co-ordinators—they 're in their second year this year—to look at a regional deployment of that resource . and that resource can be done in a variety of ways , through individual allocation to a school to support an individual child , through to capacity building for the whole system . so , for instance , if i give you an example , in carmarthenshire , there 's been a big emphasis on attachment disorder and training teachers with regard to the impact of attachment disorder . carmarthenshire happens to be one of those local authorities that does quite well in terms of attainment for looked-after children . but , clearly , i have—not concerns . 'concerns ' is n't the right word . but i have asked officials to give greater scrutiny to how that resource has been used in the last year . steve , on my behalf , wrote out to the system , setting out our expectations , but also advising them of the fact we will be asking very detailed questions of accountability for that money . so , what has that money been used on and how can you account for the effect ? but , steve , maybe you can give some greater detail . steve davies: i think the challenge that— . one of the rationales for shifting—not that all the money stays in the region , but having a regional strategic support—was that , historically , the money was going directly with that child to the school . given the quite often rapid turnover of children in schools—the very nature of looked-after children is they do sometimes move through foster parents—historically , what happened , the money lands in the school , because , at that time in the year , when it 's measured , the school gets the money and can spend it on some additional support for staff , but quite often that child moves on to another school and the money does n't transfer . some schools will go through quite a number of years without having a looked-after child and will not think strategically , 'how do i need to support them ? ' so , that was the rationale of the shift . in terms of the implementation of the regional allocation , as of this financial year finishing , we are going into local authorities and regions to evaluate where they 've located the resource , what the impact of that resource has been , so that is reinforced and shared more widely . kirsty williams am: and then , to reassure , it 's not just internally that we 're looking at this . we have a contract with an external agency to do an evaluation— mark reckless am: that 's icf consulting . kirsty williams am: yes . yes , so that was done in the autumn of last year , because , as i said , we had concerns about whether this was really having the effect that was intended . so , my expectation is that we will be in a position to receive that report later on this spring , and of course it would be my intention that that report would be made public for people to have a look at what— mark reckless am: that was commissioned last autumn— kirsty williams am: yes , in november 2017 . mark reckless am: november 2017 . kirsty williams am: so , i 'm hoping to have that published before the summer recess . i 'm very reluctant to say months ; i 've learnt not to say months , because they move . lynne neagle am: i 'm going to go to michelle now , mark , because— mark reckless am: sure . i will come back in if i have anything further to ask here after michelle . lynne neagle am: —both of you asked for these questions , and that 's what the pre-meeting is for . mark reckless am: michelle , i defer to you . lynne neagle am: michelle . michelle brown am: okay , thank you . would you be open , cabinet secretary , to the idea of adjusting the eligibility of the pdg so that pupils who have been looked after or adopted at any point within a previous given period of time would attract the pdg , rather than only if they 're looked-after on a one-off date ? kirsty williams am: as i said earlier , in questions from , i think it was , llyr , who was talking about concepts of concepts of ever 6 , we are constantly looking at how we can get that balance between focus and flexibility for this resource . llyr opened with the question of , 'how can you absolutely ensure that these children are getting the money ? ' , but then there 's also a tension about how can you create some flexibility around the school 's usage of the grant . so , we will look at that . i think there is the issue of where a school would know of a child that was looked after . issues around adoption are slightly more sensitive , because we could n't force a family to tell a school that their child was an adopted child . so , a family may be very open and very keen to explain that to a school , but we ca n't necessarily track as closely children who have been adopted , especially if that adoption happens before the child goes to school . we ca n't be in a position of forcing families to disclose this information if they do n't want to , but we certainly can , as i say , look to strengthen our monitoring arrangements around pdg support for looked-after children and the impact that that 's having . i just think we need to be a bit mindful of people 's privacy in some instances . if they do n't want to divulge that , it would n't be my job to tell a family , 'you have to let us know if your child is adopted . ' lynne neagle am: michelle . michelle brown am: fair enough ; thank you for that answer . the eas consortium 's approach to using the looked-after and adopted pdg is to use it as part of a broader approach targeted at vulnerable learners in general . what are your views on that approach ? kirsty williams am: i 'm a great believer in if we can get it right for our most vulnerable learners , we 'll be getting it right for all of our learners . i gave the example earlier , for instance , of attachment disorder , and , chair , you will know that i have had conversations . one of the emerging themes for me , as i go around visiting schools , is the impact and the growing awareness and the growing numbers of children who have attachment disorder , and how schools are best able to respond to that in their children . so , for instance , as i said about carmarthenshire , there 's been a huge effort to address that in the school sector in carmarthenshire . now , that has a disproportionate benefit for those children , because you 're more likely to see attachment disorder in children who are care experienced , because of the nature of the lives that those children have lived , but that does n't necessarily mean that attachment disorder is exclusively found in those children that are looked after . it can be found in other families as well . so , that vulnerable learner , regardless of their background , will benefit from having teachers who are better trained , understanding and have intervention strategies in place to be able to address that need . steve davies: i think it 's also important to add that this is not one region 's approach ; this is across four regions , so the others— . for example , erw have run a significant programme looking at the impact of adverse childhood experiences on pupils , which has enabled teachers to detect some of the impact of some of those and then considers some of the work they need to do within the school but also with other agencies . so , it is something that's applied consistently across the four regions . kirsty williams am: i was in pil primary school recently where they use their pdg , both fsm pdg , and no doubt an element of pdg for looked-after , for nurture groups . so , for those children who really , really find it very difficult to be in the main classroom , they can have that nurture group experience to address issues around emotional behaviour , feelings , and it gets them in a position where they are able then to join the main classroom because issues around behaviour have been addressed and they 're in a better position to learn . so , again , this is an example of how vulnerable learners in the wider sense can benefit . lynne neagle am: okay . mark , did you have anything you wanted to ask ? mark reckless am: yes . can i follow up on tracking adopted children ? i entirely understand that you ca n't force parents to disclose that their child is adopted . however , my understanding was that , in england , there was a dataset with social services that was shared with schools in a way that i 'm not clear is happening in wales and how , if at all , that links to the pupil level annual school census data . perhaps sort of linked to that , is n't there an argument for making the parents of adopted children in the schools , potentially , with adopted children more aware that adopted children who were previously looked after have this potential grant , and would they not be more willing to disclose this , at least confidentially to the school and government , if they knew there was this upside of doing so ? kirsty williams am: we 're actively looking at whether we should try and find a way of collecting this data , with the caveats that i just gave earlier . we ca n't force parents to divulge information that is a matter for them , nor would i want to . but there is an active discussion going on at the moment about whether we could create a dataset where people divulge this information and we can then track the children through . you 're absolutely right . one of the ways in which we can often encourage take-up , for instance , of free school meals , especially in those communities where there is a sense of reluctance to apply for support—even though people are entitled to it , there 's a reluctance to do it ; sometimes we see this in rural areas— . actually , appealing to the parents by saying , 'actually , this will mean more money for your child 's school budget' is a much more compelling reason why people will apply for it then saying , 'actually , it 's going to help you ' , because they do n't want to be seen being dependent , they do n't want to be seen being helped . but , if you say to them , 'actually , do you know that this means more money for your child 's school ? ' , they go , 'oh , all right then , i 'll fill in the forms now . ' so , you 're right , i think there is something that we could do to make parents understand , in the round , that this has an impact . but we are actively looking at and discussing whether we could create a dataset around adopted children and how we can do that in line with data protection and data sharing . one of the things i am concerned about in the performance of looked-after children generally is how we can , across government , work more closely together . we ca n't see the educational attainment of looked-after children just being a job of education . it 's got to be a job of social services and the health service as well . there 's got to be a joined-up approach to doing that . now , officials were at the ministerial advisory group that 's chaired by david melding on prospects for looked-after children . they were there at the group last week . david tells me that the paper was very positively received by the group . i will be sitting down with david melding to talk through what more we can do on the education side . i think there 's really an appetite between me and the minister for children to get a closer working relationship on this . we ca n't expect schools to do it on their own and alone . and there are things that we can do out there in local authorities to help improve outcomes . it 's not just about the pdg ; it is about , when social services are thinking about a placement , where does the discussion about where children are going to go to school—when does that take place ? do we talk about the placement , move a child and then think , 'oh my goodness me , what are we going to do about the schooling ? ' if you can imagine , the school could have been working really , really hard with a pupil to get them in a good place , to get them being able to access the curriculum , and then social services decide that the placement is being changed . so , we potentially lose all of that . so , a greater involvement in education and better linked-up working in local authorities will help us with this . it ca n't be just the job of the pdg . if we think we can crack this with just pdg , then we 're being delusional . it has to be a cross-government approach at a national level , and at a local government level as well , to get this right . sometimes , data protection—how can we break down some of these barriers between , you know , the school does n't need to , schools should n't see , the entire social services report ? well , maybe the school does need to see some of that background information if they 're going to have an impact for that child . so , there 's more work to do , but it can not be just the job of education on its own if we 're going to make a difference , nor can it just be the job of the pdg to make a difference for those children . lynne neagle am: thank you . julie 's got some more questions on the impact on adopted and looked-after children . julie morgan am: yes , before i go on to those , i just wanted to support , really , what mark was saying about adopted children and how important it is , i think , that the adoptive parents feel able to speak to the school and to give information . because certainly any evidence we 've had from adoptive parents , and generally knowing about what adoptive parents do feel , is that they often feel that there 's a degree of a lack of sensitivity in the school about the issues of adoption . i would certainly support some move towards ensuring that the atmosphere was open in a way that would encourage them to realise that it would be a help for the children if there was an awareness in the school . so , i just wanted to really reinforce that . kirsty williams am: yes , and that would chime with what i hear from many adoptive parents . i 'm just trying to be sensitive by saying we ca n't force people to divulge this information if they do n't want to . julie morgan am: no , but they need to be given the opportunity . kirsty williams am: yes , you 're right . we need to make sure that those parents feel that they can discuss this with school leaders and classroom teachers and explore how best those individual children can be supported , and how best we can support parents . because , again—and i 've said this a lot—after the quality of teaching , the second biggest impact on a child 's educational outcome will be parental engagement . so , being able to create an environment where adoptive parents feel very confident and able to talk about their children 's education is absolutely crucial if we 're going to get that parental engagement that we need for all of our children . julie morgan am: yes . thank you . going on to looked-after children , you say that the latest data on looked-after children 's attainment is extremely disappointing . can you expand on that and what effect the pdg has had in this result , or not had ? kirsty williams am: well , there 's no getting away from it : the way in which we currently measure outcomes for looked-after children , the results are not good enough . it 's a source of huge concern to me that we need to do better for those children . that 's why officials are engaging with the group that david melding is chairing , to make sure that education is integral to that group and it 's not lost sight of . there 's a discussion to be had about the cohort , whether it 's right and correct to compare looked-after children to the main cohort , or whether these statistics are useful in any way . sometimes as well—this is not to make an excuse because , as i 've said in my paper , it 's extremely disappointing , but sometimes it can be really difficult . because the cohort sometimes can be very , very small , it can swing the statistics to look perhaps more dramatic . julie morgan am: i think , generally , when you look at how looked-after children do— kirsty williams am: it 's not good . julie morgan am: —in a much wider evaluation , they 're not doing well , are they ? kirsty williams am: they 're not doing well . so , that 's why we 've got the review , the independent review , into the impact of the pdg in this area . this is why steve is doing the work that he is doing with the regional consortia because , clearly , at the moment , we are not doing what we need to do for that particular cohort of children . i would not make any bones about that at all . steve davies: i think we will not move away from the fact that these children need good gcses to gain employment , so we 'll continue to measure that . i think we need to look at more nuanced evaluations of the data at a lower level . so , for example , there were significant improvements in terms of pdg pupils who got three and four good gcses but did n't get past the threshold . that 's not to cover anything that is not working in terms of improvement , but we will look at the full range and still hold on to the fact that we have to look at a measure that relates to the likelihood of these children going on to further education and training . julie morgan am: and then just one more question about the exclusion rates amongst looked-after children . they are , i understand , over six times more likely to be given a fixed-term exclusion . so , is there any way of trying to address this ? is the pdg used for anything to do with exclusions ? kirsty williams am: we can look at exclusions . we also have to read across about how the whole system works , not just the pdg element of the system . so , we know , for example , that 66 per cent of looked-after learners have some additional learning need , so we ca n't just look at it in terms of this particular source of funding ; we have to look at it at a wider level of support . so , given that the majority of those children will have an aln , how can we make sure that our new aln legislation and our new aln regime meets the needs of these children ? so , i think what we 're looking at , again , is to say that it ca n't be just the job of the pdg . that 's there as an additional level of support , but actually , we 've got to get our aln right . unless we get our aln right , lots and lots of these children are not going to get the support that they need day in , day out via that system . we do know that sometimes , if we 're not addressing aln , then we 're not addressing behaviour issues that then potentially lead to an expulsion or potentially lead to non-attendance . so , we 've got to look at it in the round and recognise the connections between the sometimes quite complex needs that these children have within the school setting , that are not just as a result of the fact that they 're looked after ; they have other needs as well . steve davies: and investment in well-being— kirsty williams am: absolutely . steve is reminding me that that 's why well-being is part of the national mission—to address issues around supporting children with their well-being , which is a way of keeping them in school . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 're going to move on to schools challenge cymru now . llyr . llyr gruffydd am: thank you , chair . i was just wondering what your assessment is as to why some schools made progress and others did n't . kirsty williams am: i think we have to recognise that the 39 schools that were part of the programme were in very , very different places . so , i think one of the reasons why some schools did well was because their needs were not so complex , not so deep-seated and a certain level of intervention was enough to get them moving forward . some schools had very , very different needs . i think , talking to those involved in the programme , as always , we had some support advisers , challenge advisers working with those schools as part of the programme who were really , really excellent and really good , and were the right fit for the school and really drove the school onwards . we had other people employed in the programme who , perhaps , were less effective at driving change within those individual schools . so , what we have is a mixed bag of performance , again reflecting the very different challenges that those schools were facing , which led them to be chosen for the programme in the first place . llyr gruffydd am: yes , okay— steve davies: sorry . one of the other key additional factors was the extent to which there had been recent appointment of a new headteacher to that school just before the programme had started , because— kirsty williams am: leadership is all . llyr gruffydd am: and that was seen as a positive . steve davies: a positive , yes . i think one of the challenges is that sometimes the time it takes to make changes in leadership can be protracted and can be a barrier , sometimes , to the speed with which you can move . but , for a significant minority of the schools , there had been recent new appointments of headteachers , which was seen to be contributing , when you looked at the evaluation , to the speed with which they were able to engage . llyr gruffydd am: the reason i was asking was i wanted to understand what lessons the government is taking from that three-year investment , really , and how , maybe , you 're applying some of those lessons to your wider school improvement programme . i know professor mel ainscow identified six interconnected lessons , although i also note that the cabinet secretary did n't actually meet him for about six or seven months after coming into post . so , i 'm just wondering , can you give us confidence that , actually , you are serious about taking lessons from schools challenge cymru and applying them to the wider school improvement agenda ? kirsty williams am: well , absolutely , llyr . i do n't think anything should be read into when i met the individual concerned , because officials were meeting the individual concerned . individual challenge advisers were meeting with the regions , there was crossover work with the fsm agenda as well , and we are absolutely determined that best practice and those interventions that drove school improvement are embedded in the new support that we have via the regional consortia . it 's no coincidence that some of the best people that were employed by schools challenge cymru are now in the employment of our regional consortia . so , those people that were really good and really made a difference do n't work for the schools challenge cymru scheme any more , they work for our regional school improvement services . so , we 're absolutely determined . the things that we have learned , as always , are around leadership . it is absolutely key and crucial to have strong , capable school leadership as a driver for change within the system . we 're looking at systems and processes , so , actually , has a school got in place comprehensive systems of tracking and processes within the school ? we 're looking at the teacher quality—how can we ensure that we have got consistent strategies in place to drive up pedagogy and teacher quality in the classroom ? collaborative activity—again , absolutely key . a school can not see itself in isolation , and one of the key themes of the national mission is a self-improving system , so , collaborative working where schools are looking outside of each other , learning from best practice from other schools . so , there are lots of things that we 've drawn from the evaluation that you will see as key themes running through the national mission , and , as i said , it 's no coincidence that our really good people that were working in schools challenge cymru are now working for the regional consortia , being able to use that expertise not just for a very small proportion of our schools—but that expertise is available to all our schools . llyr gruffydd am: although estyn has told us , of course , that you ca n't expect the consortia to really carry on with that level of intervention and the same kind of intensity as was provided previously , so i 'm just wondering— kirsty williams am: in what way ? llyr gruffydd am: well , we were told by estyn in evidence that they did n't necessarily think that we could expect the consortia to provide the same type of tailored support , and certainly the level of intensity with the improvement boards and everything— kirsty williams am: well , the improvement boards are carrying on , so the improvement boards still exist , and i would—not that i want to argue with estyn— llyr gruffydd am: well , feel free ; this is your opportunity to do so if you— kirsty williams am: what i would say is that those improvement boards are staying on , and our schools categorisation system is used to identify the level of support . now , if you 're a red school , that gives you the entitlement to 25 days of support . that is more than you would have got under the schools challenge cymru programme , which would 've been 20 days . so , actually , moving to this system allows us to really focus in on those schools that need that intensive level of support . and what 's important for me , llyr , in this , okay , is that those schools are not necessarily just the schools that were in the programme . our system now of challenge , advice and support allows us to target resources across all of our schools and across all of our sectors , because you 'll be aware that schools challenge was only available to secondary schools , not available to primary schools . what our system now allows us to do , via the schools categorisation , is to identify schools , wherever they are in wales and whatever sector they 're in , to have that intensive level of support that they need to make improvements . llyr gruffydd am: so , you 're confident that that level of momentum is continuing through the consortia that was previously enjoyed by those particular schools , and you 're also confident that there is minimal risk that they 'll slip back to where they were , potentially , or at least part of the way back . kirsty williams am: well , actually , there are some really good examples of some of the schools challenge cymru schools making that sustained improvement now that the programme has come to an end . you only have to look at tredegar , where we have seen continual improvement and moving up through the categorisation system . that school is now a green school , so they 've been able to sustain their progress at the end of the programme . if we look at armando in eastern high school , again—gosh , my goodness me , we had lots of debates in a previous chamber about the future of eastern . there was one person that said that eastern had to be closed and that the only way forward for that particular school was for it to be shut down , but what we have seen is investment via schools challenge cymru , but ongoing , continual support from the regional consortium , and that school has come out of special measures . i pay absolute tribute to the staff of that school and that community that have done such a good job . so , i 'm absolutely convinced that where we 've got good leadership and good support , some of those schools are making continued , sustained progress even after the end of the programme . the challenge for me is for those schools that schools challenge cymru did n't work for , and we have n't seen that progress—how we can use our school improvement system now to continue to work with those schools to give them the level of support that they need to make a difference . so that 's what my focus is on now : a whole-system approach , rather than choosing 39 schools to get that level of support , when we recognise that there are schools everywhere , potentially , that need intervention , support and challenge , and in the primary sector as well . llyr gruffydd am: okay . so , you would n't agree with a number of—well , the near-unanimous evidence that we 've had from academics , some of whom are government advisers from consortia et cetera , that this kind of programme such as schools challenge cymru would probably need about five years to really have the impact that it was intended to have . kirsty williams am: what i would say is that , from my understanding , from the outset , it was a time-limited programme . the schools were aware of that . there were no surprises that it was supposed to be a time-limited programme . evidence from across the uk showed that school challenge programmes have differed in time . so , for instance , manchester 's challenge was a three-year programme . so , there 's no consensus about how many years you need to run a programme for . the previous minister was quite clear about the time-limited nature of the programme . that 's not to say it was the wrong decision , because what 's important , and an ongoing legacy of the programme , was the investment in regional school improvement capacity , because at the time our school improvement services and the regions were young , in their infancy . the ability of individual local authorities to make a difference , with so many local authorities in an estyn categorisation , was limited , so one of the ongoing legacies of the programme is that significant investment of over £10 million in the capacity of the regions to be able to continue this support and the school improvement work . llyr gruffydd am: so , how disappointed were you that the money for schools challenge cymru went back into reserves and did n't stay in your envelope , as you described it earlier ? i presume you made a pitch for it . did you make a case for that money to stay within your department ? kirsty williams am: llyr , we are constantly having discussions with the minister for finance around support for the education budget . the minister for finance was quite clear that it was a time-limited programme . we were able to secure investment from the finance minister to be able to secure the programme and run it and phase it out to make sure there was transition support , so as we moved from the schools challenge programme into the regional consortia , there were resources to do that . llyr gruffydd am: did you feel there was a case to be made to add to the consortia 's resources and be able to continue that level of support that schools had previously had ? kirsty williams am: well , we did make resources available to the regional consortia to do that . as i say , from the outset , the previous minister was very clear it was a time-limited programme . certainly the schools that i talk to— . and i want to be absolutely clear : i have visited many , many schools challenge cymru schools . i have used that opportunity to talk to them about—heolddu being one of them , hefin , which we went to visit , and willows , for instance . i 'm going to one this afternoon—i 'm going to st illtyd 's this afternoon , and i always take— . i 've been to caergybi in anglesey . i always take the opportunity to speak to those teachers about their experience of the programme and to understand and assure myself that they are getting ongoing support that they see as an appropriate level for them . i think i 've done 19 of the schools . lynne neagle am: hefin on this . hefin david am: with regard to it being a time-limited programme , the previous minister was clear that it was a time-limited programme , but it was n't quite as time-limited as you 've decided to be . is that fair to say ? kirsty williams am: no , it was supposed to be a three-year programme at the most . so , there 's no differential between when i decided it was time-limited and the expectations— hefin david am: so the time limit was the same that the previous minister put on it . kirsty williams am: yes . no change . llyr gruffydd am: but mel ainscow did tell us that there was a fade out in that third year—not that people were giving up , do n't get me wrong , but clearly there was n't that commitment coming from government because the decision had been made , and people felt that it was just fizzling out a little bit , and that impacted on the momentum . kirsty williams am: i would n't characterise it as that . i think there certainly was a transition phase when we knew that the programme was moving and schools were moving into a different level of support , but i certainly would n't describe it as a fading out—not at all . as i said , we were aware that the programme was transitioning and we were determined to get that right for those individual schools , and to learn the lessons and , crucially , to be able to apply those lessons right across the board . steve davies: i can see where the perception would come if a programme director like mel was managing the programme right to the end of the three years exactly the same , and it falls off—not a cliff , but it falls off , then the readiness for schools and the readiness in the system to hand over—so part of the shift of focus was that working as a government with the programme in those schools to working with the programme , those schools and the region . so , i think , inevitably , one party might see it as a decrease in terms of emphasis on their work , but it was necessary for the transition . llyr gruffydd am: but does that cast a bit of a shadow over the transition , then—that one key player within that process felt as such , or are you confident that that was managed well and effectively ? kirsty williams am: i think it was managed well , and we were very clear to recognise success where success has been achieved , but not to gloss over where the programme had not made an impact , because that would n't be good for anybody . there was a formal event to close the programme , which gave everybody an opportunity to get together , to be formally thanked , and for , as i said , congratulations to be given to those people who had really made a difference and , crucially , key staff transferred over into the regional consortia . so , for those individuals , they were able to continue their work , but just be able to apply that work on a regional basis rather than just in an individual school . so , i do n't see that there was any fading out , but there was a transition into a new system , and many of those key personnel transitioned into the system with us . lynne neagle am: have you got any figures for the numbers of staff who went from the programme into the consortia ? kirsty williams am: not off the top of my head , but i can let you know . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got darren first , then mark . kirsty williams am: and can i just say , i met with some of them ? i met with a selection of those people who had been involved in the programme to get their feedback on what they felt had gone right , and what they did n't feel had gone right in the programme . so , i took the time not just to meet the figurehead of the programme , but actually to meet the people who were doing the work in the individual schools . sorry . darren millar am: yes , i just wanted to ask you , you mentioned the figurehead there , i assume by 'the figurehead ' you mean professor ainscow . and you 've mentioned as well that you said you wanted to learn lessons from schools challenge cymru , but he told us that nobody had been in touch with him since march of last year in order to have any sort of follow-up engagement , or to have a dialogue about his perspective on what worked , what did n't work , why there were failures in some areas and why there were successes in others . why have n't you sought that level of engagement with the person who was responsible for running the programme ? kirsty williams am: i 've had that conversation with mr ainscow . we had the evaluation of the programme . we 've spoken to the people who were actually involved in running the programme on a daily basis in individual schools . we 've spoken to the regional consortia . we 've spoken to local education authorities . we 've spoken to a wide variety of people to get their insight into the lessons learned , what was valuable and what was not valuable . so , a wide variety of people have been involved in those conversations . darren millar am: but you 've hardly engaged with mr ainscow—with professor ainscow himself . steve davies: i would actually say that i have had meetings— darren millar am: since march of last year . steve davies: yes , since march of last year . i have n't got the exact dates for you . i 've had discussions with mel ainscow , and my line manager at the time , owen evans , also had meetings and discussions . darren millar am: so , when he told us , 'since last march , i literally have had no contact at all with anybody from welsh government ' , he was telling porky pies , was he ? steve davies: that 's not my recollection . i 'll go back and check for you . lynne neagle am: if you could check and let us know , that would be good . mark . kirsty williams am: yes , well , i just talked about the celebration event to formally mark the end of the programme . my understanding was that it was july of last year , so people were engaged in that . and this idea that somebody has been ignored or frozen out is not how i see or how i regard that situation . lynne neagle am: mark . mark reckless am: i have to say , with professor ainscow my impression was he took great , great pride in the work that he 'd done with schools challenge cymru , and i think he really enjoyed the engagement , the work and the positive relations with the welsh government . but i think there was just a degree of disappointment , perhaps , that at least he did n't feel that he 'd been interrogated as much as he might have been about the lessons learned from the programme , and how perhaps to entrench those as well as possible with the regional consortia . i just wonder , cabinet secretary , if you could invite the professor in , perhaps to have a further debrief with you and take account of some of his thoughts and suggestions for what might help in this area . kirsty williams am: well , mark , as i said , i just do n't think it should be right to characterise this as a failure to engage with a single individual . mark reckless am: i 'm not characterising it that way , cabinet secretary . kirsty williams am: as i said , i met with him , steve has met with him , owen evans has met with him , my special policy adviser has met with him and had discussions . so , there has been an ongoing dialogue . but , mark , i hope that i have demonstrated since i took on this job that i am willing to work with a wide variety of people and to tap into their expertise if it can help me to deliver on the national mission . and if the advice to me is that we have n't sufficiently learnt the lessons , then i 'll gladly have another conversation . what i 'm saying to you—and i 'm absolutely confident—is that we have learnt the lessons , we are taking that work and the good practice forward , and we have done that with conversations with a wide variety of people who had a view on this , from individual schools that were involved in the programme , individual people who were working in those schools , local education authorities , some of which have been very scathing about the programme , i should say , regional consortia— . so , the lessons , i am confident , have been learnt . mark reckless am: i 'm glad to hear that , cabinet secretary , but i still say that , listening to professor ainscow 's evidence , there was a perception , at least from him individually , that the programme should not be seen to be a failure , but a desire that the lessons should be learnt and a feeling or exception , at least on his part , that there was more that he still had to contribute to the process . and just to take one particular example , i think he referred to the schools challenge cymru advisers being very successful in bringing in people who might not otherwise have contributed to this , and the regional consortia have had greater challenges in recruiting people , perhaps in some areas , of the same high standard of some particular individuals , but also from a wide range of different areas that the schools challenge cymru do , and that there could be more to learn in that area as to how to support real excellence and a greater diversity of recruitment for those people . is that something you could perhaps draw on his thoughts further about ? because i think he does feel that he has more to say to welsh government to help in this area . kirsty williams am: firstly , can i say that i have never described the programme as a failure ? i would understand , as someone who has put so much personal investment into the brand of schools challenges , that he would not want anybody to characterise that particular approach to school improvement as a failure . and i want to be absolutely clear that i have never described the programme as a failure , and i want to reassure mr ainscow of that . as i 've said , gosh , my goodness me , if you saw my e-mail inbox and you saw the letters that come in , people are never shy in coming forward to give me advice on what i need to do , what i need to do next , what i 'm doing right , what i 'm doing wrong , and , you know , our doors are always open to listen to people who have interesting things to say about how we can deliver our educational mission . so , people are n't slow in coming forward , i can assure you , with advice . lynne neagle am: julie . julie morgan am: just very quickly . i 'm sure the minister is aware that cardiff put extra funds of its own in to continue schools challenge cymru advisers . so , obviously , they appreciated the value of the scheme , but it does query whether it should have gone on longer . kirsty williams am: julie , i think , to be fair , there are some people who think the scheme was absolutely fantastic . i 've had feedback from people who did n't think the scheme was helpful at all—in fact , they felt it was a hindrance . i 'm very much of the view that the scheme worked really well for some schools in some areas and had less impact in some areas . there is a mixed picture . what 's important to me is that we understand what it was that led those schools to make those big changes , how we can—like mark talked about , the expertise—how we can keep that expertise in the system , and how we can apply the lessons to all schools . lynne neagle am: the next questions , and the final questions , are from john . so , we 're going to need succinct questions and succinct answers . john griffiths am: some questions on regional consortia , cabinet secretary , and , first of all , the role that you believe they should play and how schools use pdg . kirsty williams am: well , it 's an absolute— . it 's one of the things that i have been very clear to the regional consortia that i expect their challenge and support advisers to be asking schools about . so , one of the conversations that they need to have when they are in schools is exploring , with that school , how they are using their pdg , and how they 're demonstrating an impact for those resources . so , it 's a fundamental role for the challenge and support advisers in the regional consortia in their school improvement work . it 's crucial . john griffiths am: that sort of brings to mind some of the research that 's been done on the role of the challenge advisers , cabinet secretary , which suggested that they 're not actually challenging schools in that way , and that there 's very little evidence of schools changing their decisions on the use of pdg as a result of any challenge from those challenge advisers . so , how would you respond to those findings ? kirsty williams am: well , as i said , in my scrutiny of the role and success of our regional consortia , i specifically asked them about free-school-meal performance and the use of pdg within their particular region . i think there is increasing evidence to suggest that good use is being made of that resource , and i think that is being fed back into us . estyn tell us that it 's one of the areas of school expenditure that is closely linked to research and an evidence base . but , clearly , there is more to do , and that 's why we have appointed the new regional advisers for pdg going forward , because we think there can be improvements in how this agenda can be supported at a regional level . john griffiths am: okay . so , you would recognise the findings from that research . kirsty williams am: yes . there 's always more that we can do , and we are strengthening that role by the appointment of the new regional pdg advisers , so that individual school challenge advisers know what they should be looking for , know what they should be doing , and there is a regional approach to good practice . john griffiths am: okay . could you tell the committee , cabinet secretary , how effective you believe the relationship was between the schools challenge cymru programme and the regional consortia 's school improvement functions , and to what extent it varied by region ? kirsty williams am: i think it 's fair to say that , on occasion , i have received feedback that there was a conflict between what was going on at an individual school under the school improvement programme and whether , then , they welcomed support from the regional consortia as part of that . so , in some cases , if we 're being absolutely honest , there could sometimes be tensions between the two , but in most cases , the relationship was very , very positive and there was continuous feedback between the work going on in the schools under the programme and the regional consortia challenge advisers . but i 'm going to be blunt and honest with people—in some cases , it has been reported to me—it 's only anecdotal evidence ; i have n't got hard and fast evidence—that there sometimes was a conflict : 'we 're a school challenge school so we do n't need to participate or listen to any advice that 's coming from the regional consortia . ' or , a local education authority said to me , 'we felt that we could n't get involved in that school anymore because it was part of a different programme . ' those were isolated incidents , and , as i said , it 's only anecdotal feedback . in most cases , the relationship was a very positive one . steve davies: just very quickly , i think that , across the board , it was more complex in the beginning , getting— [ inaudible. ] . but when the programme itself recognised that they needed to work with the regions , and the regions needed to work with them—and i think mel ainscow in his evidence referred to this—it strengthened after some early challenges . i think mel ainscow was working in a number of regions—i ca n't remember which ones—so he 's established relationships— [ interruption . ] sorry ? kirsty williams am: central south . steve davies: central south . he has already been working in that , so i think it possibly had a stronger springboard in terms of the early working . kirsty williams am: because he already had relationships that he had already developed in that particular region . as always , with many of these things , it 's about individuals and relationships . john griffiths am: okay . finally from me , cabinet secretary : in 2015-16 , estyn reported on regional consortia not sufficiently focusing on particular groups of pupils and tracking their outcomes—for example , vulnerable pupils . i just wonder what you are able to tell us in terms of to what extent there has been necessary progress since 2015-16 . kirsty williams am: okay . well , i think it 's important to recognise that all four consortia underwent monitoring visits in the autumn of last year , of 2017 , which were n't reflected in the estyn annual report for 2015-16. estyn , through these 2017 inspections , have said that three out of the four regional consortia are making strong progress in their particular work , and we are continuing , as welsh government , to work with the other regional consortia to address the findings of the estyn report . john griffiths am: and that would include these particular issues . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . the committee probably has n't had an opportunity to see , but , only this morning , estyn has released a report on more able and talented , and has positive things to say in the field of more able and talented , which was being asked about earlier by members—you know , evidence of improved working and support in that particular arena . but , again , we need to ensure a consistency across all the regions , and that the findings of estyn 's most recent reports into regional performance are followed through . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . as we 've got a couple of minutes left , if i can just jump back to the issue of practical uses of the pdg—because it 's the only thing we have n't really covered and it would be good to get on the record—can i ask to what extent you 'd like to see the pdg used to track the progress of eligible pupils ? and the committee 's heard that there are several different tracking systems and tools used by schools . to what extent is that an issue to do with what the welsh government is promoting ? or is it down to consortia or individual schools ? and do you think there needs to be a more centralised push on how the tracking is undertaken ? kirsty williams am: firstly , can i say it 's absolutely crucial that we track performance , absolutely crucial ? that 's the bedrock . we do n't dictate to individual schools the nature of the system that they should employ in their school . there are a number of different programmes that allow schools to do this , but we are absolutely clear , and best practice and evidence shows us , that individual pupil tracking is key and crucial . and , as i said in the beginning , where we were n't tracking pupils at all , initial investment in pdg was used to establish these systems within schools . again , one of the outcomes from the schools challenge review , and one of the lessons learnt , was , again , the importance of individual tracking of pupils throughout their school career . but we do n't dictate a single system . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . kirsty williams am: but the principle is a really important one . lynne neagle am: okay , and you do n't think there 's more scope to look at what the best system is that can be recommended to schools . kirsty williams am: that 's not something we 're actively looking at . i am actively looking at developing a welsh toolkit around good practice , evidence base and research . at the moment we use the sutton trust toolkit , which is fine and excellent , but we are having active discussions about whether we 're in a position , now , to look at developing a suite of a welsh toolkit to support this agenda , and that 's under active consideration . lynne neagle am: okay . well , we 've reached the end of our session . can i thank the cabinet secretary and the officials for attending and for answering such a wide range of questions ? as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you again for coming . kirsty williams am: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: thank you . okay . item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the minister for children and social care on families first funding . paper to note 2 is a letter from the cabinet secretary for education , updating us on the supply teacher issue . paper to note 3—another letter from the cabinet secretary for education , providing further information following our meeting on 15 february . paper to note 4 is a letter from the wjec on availability of textbooks . paper to note 5—a letter from qualifications wales , also on availability of textbooks . and paper to note 6 is a letter from the cabinet secretary for education to the children 's commissioner for wales , following up on the dialogue that they 've been having about our inquiry . are members happy to note those ? thank you . item 4 , then , is for me to propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

according to kirsty williams , it 's probably the best that they 've got at present , and will continue to have discussions with local government about whether there are different ways . officials are working all the time in conjunction with the department in england , to understand their thinking in this area so that we are in a position to make some decisions about what a notional eligibility for free school meals will look like going forward , but before i make any decisions , i want to assure everybody that there will be a full public consultation on that .

how do the group think of the extent and condition that schools actually make good use of that funding of pdg ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to this morning 's children , young people and education committee . we 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members who are present if they wish to declare any interests ? okay , thank you . item 2 this morning is our final evidence session for our inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams am , cabinet secretary for education ; steve davies , director of the education directorate ; and ruth conway , deputy director , support for learners division . welcome to all of you , and thank you for your attendance and also for the paper that you 've provided in advance . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions , and the first questions are from llyr gruffydd . llyr gruffydd am: bore da . i just want to start by asking some questions around the targeting of the pupil development grant because , clearly , we 've had a lot of evidence around this apparent blurring of eligibility to an extent . i 'm just wondering how comfortable you are that the money is being targeted appropriately because , clearly , it 's being targeted more widely than just those eligible for free school meals , from some of the evidence we 've had , but also that it seems to be predominantly focused on low-attaining frees—pupils who are eligible for free school meals . kirsty williams am: thank you , llyr . i think it 's important to be absolutely clear that when it comes to individual interventions , those individual interventions should only be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals . but in some cases , schools may use their pdg funding to provide a universal intervention , but we would want to—in challenge advisers ' discussions in schools—we 'd want to have evidence that that universal intervention would have a disproportionate effect on the outcomes for children on free school meals . so , for instance , if i give you an example in your own region , llyr : at brynteg county primary school in wrexham , if you look at that primary school in wrexham , their results for free-school-meal children at the end of their primary school period in school are equivalent to their non-free-school-meal counterparts . so , there is no differentiation in those results . one of the things that they 've used their pdg for is to really focus on the concept of growth mindset in school . so , that 's a universal thing that they 've trained all the teachers in , but what we know is that that has a disproportionate effect on those children who are on free school meals . so , if you 're familiar with the concept of a growth mindset , it 's about really challenging learners to think that , ' i can do things . if sometimes i fail , i pick myself up , i 'm more resilient . ' now , that has been , as i said , trained to all the teachers in the school—it 's an ethos for the whole school—but we have seen that the impact on the free-school-meal children has been even greater , and now they 're at the same level . so , that 's the important distinction . individual intervention per child has to be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals , but sometimes a school will employ a whole-school approach to train their staff , for instance , and that , then , has to demonstrate it has a disproportionate effect on free school meals . so , growth mindset ; it may be attachment disorder training for staff , for instance , where we know it 's of benefit to everybody , but will have particular benefits for that cohort of students . with regard to more able and talented , you know , llyr , that this is an area of concern for me , generally , within the welsh education system ; that we 've not been particularly good at identifying , supporting and driving attainment for those children . i 'm absolutely clear that pdg needs to be used for those children who are eligible to drive potential , whatever the potential of that child is , including more able and talented . and again , i 'll give you an example that has been seen as good practice in pembrokeshire : a window on the world bus , again paid for by schools . i do n't know if you 're aware of it . llyr gruffydd am: we 've heard about that . kirsty williams am: oh , you 've heard about it ; well , it 's a really good example the window on the world . and , again , that 's very much targeted at raising aspirations and giving children who are more able and talented , who are eligible for pdg , those experiences , and to really push them . so , yes , i 'm absolutely clear that pdg should n't just be seen to be getting individuals to the average . for those children who are more able and talented , it should be used to support them— llyr gruffydd am: and we all share those aspirations , i 'm sure , and you pointed to examples of good practice , but of course , it 's not universal , is it , so what i 'm asking is : do you think that the guidance is sufficient as it is ? do you think that there 's a great enough awareness of how the pdg should be used at the coalface ? and also , are you confident that consortia and others have the measures in place to be able to demonstrate that it is being used properly ? kirsty williams am: i think , if we look at what estyn has said about pdg , it does actually recognise that the pdg is being used to push more able and talented children , but as always with the system , llyr , it 's whether we can be sure that that is strategic and that it 's happening across all of our schools . so , you're— llyr gruffydd am: but not just in relation to more able and talented , i 'm referring to the eligibility and the targeting . kirsty williams am: oh , the eligibility . you 'll be aware that , on the advice of sir alasdair , we have employed and appointed new pdg regional advisers , and i think their role is going to be absolutely crucial in spreading that good practice across the region , whether that 's use of pdg for more able and talented , or ensuring that pdg is used in the appropriate way . so , that 's there to provide strategic overall advice . and obviously , we have been very clear with regional challenge advisers , in the relationship and the conversations they 're having with individual schools , that they 're really challenging their schools about the use of pdg , not just in terms of targeting , but the programmes , what the money is being spent on , whether there is an evidence base for that and whether we are clear on impact . so , i think the new regional advisers are going to be crucial in enabling us to ensure more consistent practice across the regions . llyr gruffydd am: so , are you content that eligibility for free school meals is the best measure , really , of identifying which pupils to target ? kirsty williams am: llyr , in the absence of anything better . i 'll be the first person to say that maybe it 's not as absolutely focused , but in the absence of anything different to identify a proxy for need , i think it 's probably the best that we 've got at present . and we will continue to have discussions with local government about whether there are different ways . we have to be mindful . some of the policy levers in this area are out of my hands , so if we look at the roll-out of universal credit , for instance , we 've got officials working very hard at the moment to try and understand what universal credit is going to mean and where we are going to be able to identify relative need , going forward . we have n't had any additional resource as a result of this , but we 're very mindful that , potentially , this has an impact , going forward . and , officials are working all of the time , i must say , in conjunction with the department in england , to understand their thinking in this area so that we are in a position to make some decisions about what a notional eligibility for free school meals will look like going forward , but before i make any decisions , i want to assure everybody that there will be a full public consultation on that . llyr gruffydd am: okay . finally for now , on this issue of once a year , in january , if you 're eligible for free school meals , then you 're in that group for that year . we 've had some quite strong evidence about how difficult that makes longer term planning for a number of schools and we 've also been pointed in the direction of what 's happened in england with the ever 6 , and i 'm just wondering whether you 're giving any thought to maybe changing that a little bit . kirsty williams am: well , we 're certainly giving thought to flexibility . in conversations with alasdair , who is our independent adviser on this agenda , and individual schools , we 're actively giving thought to greater flexibility and maybe longer term projections , so that schools know , for a number of years ahead , what their allocation will be . there are advantages to that system , because you could give that flexibility , you could give that long-term approach , but then , how do you make that responsive if a school suddenly has more children ? we do know that , actually , the number of free-school-meal pupils is dropping . but there can be changes , you know , regional working in areas of north wales in tourism , or maybe in other areas at christmas time , parents are able to get a period of work . so , how can we create a more flexible system ? we 're actively looking at that at the moment . i would n't use it as an ever 6 concept , but as an 'ever 2 ' concept . we have looked at ever 6 , and i 'm going to be absolutely blunt with you : to introduce an ever 6 concept for wales would mean in the region of identifying an additional £40 million . i 'm going to be absolutely straight and blunt with you : we 're not in a position at the moment to be able to identify an additional £40 million to introduce an ever 6. but issues around flexibility , certainly , are actively under consideration . in fact , we 'll be having a discussion later on today about decisions , going forward , for the next two years . llyr gruffydd am: thank you . lynne neagle am: darren on this . darren millar am: it 's just a very brief point in response to the £40 million price ticket that you just put on that . that 's , of course , assuming that you maintain the current level of pdg , yes ? so , if you reduced the level of pdg slightly , but made it available to more individuals , if you like , via allocating it in a different way , then that £40 million price ticket would n't be there , would it ? kirsty williams am: i was asked a question about had i ever considered an ever 6. we have looked at that , we 've priced that up . i have to make decisions in the envelope of resources that are available to me . we could , indeed , change the way in which we allocate pdg money , but we have to do it within the envelope that is available to me , over £90 million . that 's a significant level of investment , but , of course , as always , darren , we could cut the amount per pupil , but that might have quite challenging swings in allocations . what we have done—because what i am clear on is that there was evidence to suggest that in the secondary sector , a great deal of pdg was being focused on years 10 and 11 , especially year 11 , in catch-up provision , and you 'll be aware , because we 've said this in evidence to the committee in the papers , we 've set a challenge to secondary schools to say , 'actually , the majority of your pdg allocation has to be used in key stage 3 . ' now , we have to balance the needs , the moral hazard of turning round to children in years 10 and 11 and saying , 'we're not going to provide catch-up opportunities for you , ' because , clearly , those children need that support . but the evidence and the advice that we 're receiving is : actually , strong focus on early years , primary and key stage 3 , if we get that right , should negate the need for spending money on catch-up at years 10 and 11. that 's why we , in our advice to local authorities and schools , say that we want to see evidence that they 're spending this money earlier on in a child 's career , rather than just a scramble at year 11 to say , 'right , we 've got to get you through your exams . ' darren millar am: okay , but have you actively considered , then , reducing the level you have ? kirsty williams am: we've— ruth conway: sorry—i was just going to say that one of the things is looking at the scope of the definition , and i think it 's about being more flexible with the definition , rather than reducing the amount per head . darren millar am: okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you . if we can go on , then , to talk about some of the practical uses of the pdg , you write in your written paper that 'the majority of schools are making well thought out and appropriate decisions ' on how to use it . but estyn reported that only two thirds of primary and secondary schools make effective use of the pdg . given that we 've had it now for six years , would you not have expected there to be a higher level of schools actually making good use of that funding ? kirsty williams am: well , to flip it on its head , the vast majority of schools , as identified by estyn , are using this money to good effect . so , that 's the way i like to see it—that the vast majority of schools are doing well . what estyn has also indicated is the intrinsic link here to leadership within individual schools , and as you 'll be aware , leadership , improving capacity in leadership and developing leadership talent in the welsh education system is a key priority for me in our national mission . of course , that 's being developed in a different work stream . i think what 's fair to say is that the use of pdg is evolving over time . i think we are seeing , increasingly , more and more schools understanding how best to deploy that money for best effect for students . so , if we 're honest , when pdg first started , i think , in some schools it was spent on investing in tracking of children , because they 'd never thought about tracking these children , they did n't have systems in place to look at the performance of these children , and to have a system in place . so we 've moved now from spending money on the infrastructure around support for fsm children into actual inputs in terms of teaching and learning . we 're also seeing from estyn that , actually , in terms of money following the evidence of what we know works , estyn says that pdg is probably the best example of schools following tried and tested and evidence-based interventions to deploy the money . but clearly we want all of this money to be deployed as well as it can be , and again we come back to the decision i 've made to appoint regional pdg advisers so that we can get that better consistency of approach . we are , in the discussions that i have with the regional consortia about how they challenge individual schools on usage , looking for very clear evidence of schools using the sutton trust toolkit , and we could have a discussion about whether that 's the right thing , because that 's on my mind too . but we want to see schools demonstrating their evidence base , and if they 're not , if a school is n't doing that , okay , so demonstrate to us why you 've made those decisions and , crucially , what are you doing as the school to judge whether that decision is actually making a difference for your individual pupils . so , if you 're moving away from tried and tested interventions , what we know works , if you 're doing something different with your money , okay , you need to justify that and you need to explain how you 're going to demonstrate impact . but i think what we 're seeing is increasing good practice in this area as the pdg develops and as our understanding of our school-to-school working in our self-improving school system also develops . i think we 're seeing better usage of the money year on year . lynne neagle am: thank you . llyr on this . llyr gruffydd am: you mentioned some schools will be moving from the tried-and-tested interventions , really , and i 'm just wondering to what extent that evolution of use of pdg is being driven by cuts to core funding . kirsty williams am: no , i do n't think it 's being driven by cuts to core funding . i think there has been— . one of the biggest impacts of pdg has not been—well , i suppose it is the money in itself , because the money has concentrated the minds , has n't it ? so , one of the most important things that pdg has done is highlight the importance of this agenda within schools , and really raise this up in the thinking of leadership and senior management teams in our schools , and has driven a focus on scrutiny and accountability in the systems that are working with our schools . i think the changing use of pdg reflects the journeys that schools have been on , some of them from a very low base where this was not a priority for them , to better understanding , and as research and as intelligence grows over time in this area , both in wales and outside of wales , schools are increasingly learning to use that evidence to tailor approaches in their schools . llyr gruffydd am: so you would n't accept at all that some of this money 's being used to paper over some funding cracks from elsewhere . because the unions and some others have told us that , whether we like it or not , there is some of that going on . kirsty williams am: as i said , llyr , we 're very clear about the usage that this money can be spent on in terms of individuals or universal application within schools , and that forms an important part of the checks and balances that we have in our system . can we continue to improve , and ensure that more and more of our schools are employing best practice ? yes , we can , and as i 've said , we 've taken steps to put in place the infrastructure to support that . lynne neagle am: thank you . mark 's questions are next . mark reckless am: cabinet secretary , how would you assess the impact of pdg on attendance and hopefully subsequent engagement with education from children who have free school meals ? kirsty williams am: i think what 's important to note is that , as estyn have themselves said , over the period of the last inspection report , we have seen improvements in attendance , but i do think we need to , again , look at how pdg can support this particular agenda . and as always in the welsh education system , there are some excellent examples of how schools use the money to address this . ysgol y preseli in pembrokeshire is a very good example of how they 've deployed their money . forgive me ; i ca n't off the top of my head remember the name of the primary school i visited , again in north wales , where the school has proactively used this money , and they actually send teaching assistants out of school in the morning before the start of the school day , and they actually have a walking bus . they call at homes for children , and they walk the children to the breakfast club . so , they 're proactively going out into the community and making sure that those children are in the classrooms , because the teacher said , 'we recognised we had a problem with attendance . we tried a variety of means of improving that , but in the end we have taken this quite bold step—we actually send the staff out and they create that walking bus , and they walk the children into school ' . they say that they know that , for some of those children , because of the difficult circumstances they and their families are living in , they probably would n't be in school if it was n't for that proactive approach . so , we 're looking again at what more we can do to support this particular agenda in terms of improving attendance , because although , again , there are examples of good practice , there is still a gap between the attendance of free-school-meal pupils and non-free-school-meal pupils . and , of course , we can have the best curriculum in the world with really high-quality teaching , but unless the children are in the classes then we 're not going to make the difference for them . whilst that differential exists , then it 's going to be hard to close the attainment gap for those children . mark reckless am: i was actually quite shocked just reading in advance of this meeting that the proportion attending 95 per cent or more , who have pretty full attendance , was only 35 per cent for free-school-meal children at level 4 , compared to 60 per cent for non-free-school-meal pupils . it still is an extraordinary difference . my colleague here showed me , i think , last week , a graph showing the link between attendance and attainment , in particular . when people were absent , a lot of the— . as i 'm sure you 're aware , there 's a huge connection . what more can pdg do to deal with it ? in the example you give i can see how a school with an awful lot of free-school-meal children could do that , but a lot of the free-school-meal children are actually in schools that do n't have that high a proportion of free school meals , where it would be much more challenging to bring in that type of initiative . kirsty williams am: yes , indeed , and i think it gets more challenging the older the children get . i think it 's more difficult to find interventions that are successful higher up , so key stage 4. so , you can do a walking bus with little ones , ca n't you , but i do n't suppose your average 15 or 16-year-old is going to take very kindly to that . so , you do need a different approach to that . but again , we see in ysgol y preseli the employment of staff to directly work with families of older children to reinforce the messages around , as you quite rightly say , the linkage between attendance and attainment , and really work with individual families to understand the barriers to attendance : what 's going on in the family that is preventing that child from going to school , and what more can the school do to address those situations . but you 're absolutely right ; there is more that we need to do to address this particular agenda of attainment . i do n't know if there 's anything extra you wanted to add , steve . steve davies: there is also another very good example—and i take what you say about where there are small numbers—but in our secondary schools where there are significant numbers , they 're investing pdg in resources like a school nurse and a school counsellor , not just to work with the children but link to other agencies on whom the children and the families are dependent to support them in terms of working with schools . so , it 's something , particularly in our most challenging areas , where it can not just be delivered within the school . so , good use of that resource is being made to employ people to support them in those wider areas . mark reckless am: thank you . to what extent is pdg also used to seek to reduce the higher rates of exclusion for children entitled to free school meals ? kirsty williams am: so , if we looked at permanent exclusions , there is n't a differential , but if we look at temporary exclusions , there we see there is a disproportionate number of children on free school meals that are subject to those exclusions . again , i think what schools employing best practice understand is that you need a multi-agency approach to supporting that particular child . some of those exclusions can be as a result of the need to address other issues going on in a child 's life . so , this is where we come back to the committee 's work , for instance , on mental health and support for children , support for behaviour in school . so , again , it 's a multi-agency approach that i think we need , and , in our good schools , our really , really good schools , there 's a recognition of that need to have a whole team around a child to support that child in education . with eotas , we made some changes last year regarding pdg for eotas . so , for those children who do find themselves in education other than at school , we are providing additional support that previously was not available . mark reckless am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . we 're going to move on now to talk about the impact of pdg on attainment . hefin david has got some questions . hefin david am: it appears that the attainment gap at 2017 has actually widened , in spite of pdg levels . is that correct ? kirsty williams am: yes . so , if you look at it—with the usual caveats about whether you can make direct comparisons on level 2 plus between the exams the year before and the exams that we had last summer—on the face of it , the gap has increased . i think what 's important to recognise , hefin , is a direction of travel . i 'm sure we all want to , because i want to , have a discussion about why children on free school meals were less resilient in the exam system last year . but , if we look at the period that we have been employing pdg , over that period , we have seen a narrowing of the gap . i think what 's quite stark , if we think about it— . so , if we look at where we started from : in 2009 , one in five children on free school meals got level 2 plus—one in five—by 2016 , we had got that down to one in three . obviously , there 's still a way to go , but , sir alasdair , who knows about these things , says that that is a significant improvement . last year , we got some challenges . we need to understand why that happened , but i do think it's— hefin david am: why , do you think ? kirsty williams am: why , do i think ? what i do think is there is no one answer . there is no one answer to this . i think we could look at and we can have discussions around the move from btec to science gcses . i think we have supplied figures to the committee about the significant change in the number of children on free school meals who were n't doing a single science gcse and are now doing science gcses . we can look at the unintended consequences of literature . again , we 've supplied figures . where children have done language and literature , whether that be through the medium of english or through the medium of welsh , there is more resilience . so , it 's that exposure to literacy in all its forms that i think could potentially make a difference . so , i think there 's no one answer to why free-school-meal children were not so resilient last year . we continue to have discussions with qualifications wales to get a better understanding of this . at my next ministerial policy board , in may , we 'll be doing a deep dive into this particular subject . hefin david am: so , to what extent would exam boards be responsible for lack of grade stability ? kirsty williams am: it could be one of the contributory factors . what i think is important is that there is no one , single reason why there seems to be less resilience in this cohort of children . hefin david am: will you be speaking to the exam boards about this and raising concerns ? kirsty williams am: i have written to qualifications wales , we 've had discussions about it , but i 've asked them to formally submit evidence ahead of my policy board for may , where , as i said , we will be doing a formal , deep-dive discussion across the department about these issues . but , again , hefin , what we 've got to be clear on is—while we look at overall factors , you know , our overall national statistic—we did see some schools last year whose fsm performance was better than it had been the year before . so , what was it in those schools that enabled those children to do really well , whereas , in other schools , the performance was different ? even in individual cities , you can see a huge variety of performance . so , take cardiff and swansea , our two biggest cities . you 've got schools in those cities with comparative levels of free school meals . so , you could have really high-performing schools with a very small number of the cohort on free school meals . the difference between those performances in a single city—so , that 's the same local education authority and the same regional consortium—you can see a massive change . there 's one school i can talk to : their free-school-meal performance is 88 per cent . a similar school in the same city with the same proportion of children on free school meals , their performance is down in the 20 per cents . so , i think what 's important is that we ca n't draw broad-brush conclusions . for me , the challenge is to go into individual schools and understand what was happening in that particular school that ensured that their children did really well . we 've got one school in swansea , their fsm performance at gcse level 2 outperforms non-fsm pupils . hefin david am: but we still need to rely on the trends from a distance . if we take your argument that 2017 was an unusual year and the trends up to 2016 were positive , in a few years ' time , when we will be looking back in two years ' time , how are we going to measure this progress , say , in 2019 ? what are we likely to see and what methods are you going to use to measure progress that way ? kirsty williams am: well , you 'll be aware that we are moving away from level 2 plus as a performance measure anyway because of the— hefin david am: so , what performance measures will you use ? kirsty williams am: so , for the lack of sophistication around the level 2 plus , and for the unintended behaviours that that particular performance measure has driven within our schools . i 'll be making a statement shortly to the assembly around a new performance measure for schools . we were , at our most recent secondary heads conference , working with schools to develop that . what 's important to me is that we have a more sophisticated model that looks at school performance for all children . what level 2 plus does is narrow , very much , the focus of schools on an individual part of the cohort , usually the c/d borderline , which is why then we have problems with the number of students getting a b grade or above . we have marked success in our schools by saying to schools that a c is good enough . well , if a child gets a c but came to you in year 7 and they were destined to get an e , yes , indeed , a c is a success , because you 've moved that child on ; but , if that child came to you destined to get an a * and gets a c , then we have n't done a good job by that particular child . so , we need a performance measure that is much more sophisticated , looks at each individual child , tracks that progress , and measures the value added by that school in performance . hefin david am: last question : therefore , should we have confidence in the data up to 2016 ? is there a lack of confidence in that data ? kirsty williams am: no , it 's not a lack of confidence in the data . the data is the data . what i 'm saying is , using that as a performance measure and an accountability measure within our school system may have been right for the time . i think it is now right to have a different way of measuring success in schools . i think that particular set of performance measures has driven certain behaviours—not because ministers wanted that to happen , but as an unintended consequence . i think we can work together with our school system , learning the lessons of international best practice , to develop much more sophisticated accountability and performance measures for individual schools , and , i should say , for the government . so , you will be aware of my intention to issue the first national report card on government performance later on this year . so , this is not about trying to avoid scrutiny . it 's about trying to develop a more sophisticated way , which is in line with our national mission , where every child 's education is valued , and where the impact of the school can be tracked more effectively . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . can i just ask , cabinet secretary , are you still holding on to your target of 37 per cent of free-school-meal pupils achieving the level 2 threshold ? kirsty williams am: well , we 're moving away from the level 2 threshold . so , that 's the first thing to say . so , we will want to develop a new suite , in line with our new accountability measures , as we go forward . so , we will be absolutely continuing to track and evaluate the performance of free-school-meal pupils . when we announce our new accountability measures , i will be in a position to address how we 'll measure the government's performance , and national performance , going forward . but , given the fact that we 're moving away from level 2 plus , then we will need a different set of performance indicators . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the next questions are on looked-after children and adopted children , and i 've got questions from michelle then mark . michelle brown am: thank you . good morning— mark reckless am: i was to come in first , i think . i was about to ask about icf consulting . lynne neagle am: go on then . mark reckless am: i think my questions are first , but , michelle , please do correct me if you were planning to come in before . the pdg for looked-after children does n't quite seem to have the degree of visibility as the pdg for the free-school-meals . i think we had the mori/wiserd survey—only 15 per cent of primary schools and 23 per cent of secondary schools were aware that pdg was targeted at looked-after children . i just wonder—can you clarify on the record here what is the role of schools with pdg for looked-after children as compared to the regional consortia in this field ? kirsty williams am: okay . i think it is absolutely fair to say that most awareness around pdg is around free school meals . there is less awareness around the availability of pdg to support looked-after children . i think that 's probably in the nature of the cohort , so , there are more children subject to free school meals than are subject to being looked after . so , i think that 's part of the explanation . a decision was taken in 2015 to regionalise pdg for looked-after children . my understanding was that the thinking behind that at the time was around a greater strategic deployment of that resource and to try and drive a greater impact than how it was being used previously . so , looked-after pdg is held at a regional level . we have looked-after children pdg co-ordinators—they 're in their second year this year—to look at a regional deployment of that resource . and that resource can be done in a variety of ways , through individual allocation to a school to support an individual child , through to capacity building for the whole system . so , for instance , if i give you an example , in carmarthenshire , there 's been a big emphasis on attachment disorder and training teachers with regard to the impact of attachment disorder . carmarthenshire happens to be one of those local authorities that does quite well in terms of attainment for looked-after children . but , clearly , i have—not concerns . 'concerns ' is n't the right word . but i have asked officials to give greater scrutiny to how that resource has been used in the last year . steve , on my behalf , wrote out to the system , setting out our expectations , but also advising them of the fact we will be asking very detailed questions of accountability for that money . so , what has that money been used on and how can you account for the effect ? but , steve , maybe you can give some greater detail . steve davies: i think the challenge that— . one of the rationales for shifting—not that all the money stays in the region , but having a regional strategic support—was that , historically , the money was going directly with that child to the school . given the quite often rapid turnover of children in schools—the very nature of looked-after children is they do sometimes move through foster parents—historically , what happened , the money lands in the school , because , at that time in the year , when it 's measured , the school gets the money and can spend it on some additional support for staff , but quite often that child moves on to another school and the money does n't transfer . some schools will go through quite a number of years without having a looked-after child and will not think strategically , 'how do i need to support them ? ' so , that was the rationale of the shift . in terms of the implementation of the regional allocation , as of this financial year finishing , we are going into local authorities and regions to evaluate where they 've located the resource , what the impact of that resource has been , so that is reinforced and shared more widely . kirsty williams am: and then , to reassure , it 's not just internally that we 're looking at this . we have a contract with an external agency to do an evaluation— mark reckless am: that 's icf consulting . kirsty williams am: yes . yes , so that was done in the autumn of last year , because , as i said , we had concerns about whether this was really having the effect that was intended . so , my expectation is that we will be in a position to receive that report later on this spring , and of course it would be my intention that that report would be made public for people to have a look at what— mark reckless am: that was commissioned last autumn— kirsty williams am: yes , in november 2017 . mark reckless am: november 2017 . kirsty williams am: so , i 'm hoping to have that published before the summer recess . i 'm very reluctant to say months ; i 've learnt not to say months , because they move . lynne neagle am: i 'm going to go to michelle now , mark , because— mark reckless am: sure . i will come back in if i have anything further to ask here after michelle . lynne neagle am: —both of you asked for these questions , and that 's what the pre-meeting is for . mark reckless am: michelle , i defer to you . lynne neagle am: michelle . michelle brown am: okay , thank you . would you be open , cabinet secretary , to the idea of adjusting the eligibility of the pdg so that pupils who have been looked after or adopted at any point within a previous given period of time would attract the pdg , rather than only if they 're looked-after on a one-off date ? kirsty williams am: as i said earlier , in questions from , i think it was , llyr , who was talking about concepts of concepts of ever 6 , we are constantly looking at how we can get that balance between focus and flexibility for this resource . llyr opened with the question of , 'how can you absolutely ensure that these children are getting the money ? ' , but then there 's also a tension about how can you create some flexibility around the school 's usage of the grant . so , we will look at that . i think there is the issue of where a school would know of a child that was looked after . issues around adoption are slightly more sensitive , because we could n't force a family to tell a school that their child was an adopted child . so , a family may be very open and very keen to explain that to a school , but we ca n't necessarily track as closely children who have been adopted , especially if that adoption happens before the child goes to school . we ca n't be in a position of forcing families to disclose this information if they do n't want to , but we certainly can , as i say , look to strengthen our monitoring arrangements around pdg support for looked-after children and the impact that that 's having . i just think we need to be a bit mindful of people 's privacy in some instances . if they do n't want to divulge that , it would n't be my job to tell a family , 'you have to let us know if your child is adopted . ' lynne neagle am: michelle . michelle brown am: fair enough ; thank you for that answer . the eas consortium 's approach to using the looked-after and adopted pdg is to use it as part of a broader approach targeted at vulnerable learners in general . what are your views on that approach ? kirsty williams am: i 'm a great believer in if we can get it right for our most vulnerable learners , we 'll be getting it right for all of our learners . i gave the example earlier , for instance , of attachment disorder , and , chair , you will know that i have had conversations . one of the emerging themes for me , as i go around visiting schools , is the impact and the growing awareness and the growing numbers of children who have attachment disorder , and how schools are best able to respond to that in their children . so , for instance , as i said about carmarthenshire , there 's been a huge effort to address that in the school sector in carmarthenshire . now , that has a disproportionate benefit for those children , because you 're more likely to see attachment disorder in children who are care experienced , because of the nature of the lives that those children have lived , but that does n't necessarily mean that attachment disorder is exclusively found in those children that are looked after . it can be found in other families as well . so , that vulnerable learner , regardless of their background , will benefit from having teachers who are better trained , understanding and have intervention strategies in place to be able to address that need . steve davies: i think it 's also important to add that this is not one region 's approach ; this is across four regions , so the others— . for example , erw have run a significant programme looking at the impact of adverse childhood experiences on pupils , which has enabled teachers to detect some of the impact of some of those and then considers some of the work they need to do within the school but also with other agencies . so , it is something that's applied consistently across the four regions . kirsty williams am: i was in pil primary school recently where they use their pdg , both fsm pdg , and no doubt an element of pdg for looked-after , for nurture groups . so , for those children who really , really find it very difficult to be in the main classroom , they can have that nurture group experience to address issues around emotional behaviour , feelings , and it gets them in a position where they are able then to join the main classroom because issues around behaviour have been addressed and they 're in a better position to learn . so , again , this is an example of how vulnerable learners in the wider sense can benefit . lynne neagle am: okay . mark , did you have anything you wanted to ask ? mark reckless am: yes . can i follow up on tracking adopted children ? i entirely understand that you ca n't force parents to disclose that their child is adopted . however , my understanding was that , in england , there was a dataset with social services that was shared with schools in a way that i 'm not clear is happening in wales and how , if at all , that links to the pupil level annual school census data . perhaps sort of linked to that , is n't there an argument for making the parents of adopted children in the schools , potentially , with adopted children more aware that adopted children who were previously looked after have this potential grant , and would they not be more willing to disclose this , at least confidentially to the school and government , if they knew there was this upside of doing so ? kirsty williams am: we 're actively looking at whether we should try and find a way of collecting this data , with the caveats that i just gave earlier . we ca n't force parents to divulge information that is a matter for them , nor would i want to . but there is an active discussion going on at the moment about whether we could create a dataset where people divulge this information and we can then track the children through . you 're absolutely right . one of the ways in which we can often encourage take-up , for instance , of free school meals , especially in those communities where there is a sense of reluctance to apply for support—even though people are entitled to it , there 's a reluctance to do it ; sometimes we see this in rural areas— . actually , appealing to the parents by saying , 'actually , this will mean more money for your child 's school budget' is a much more compelling reason why people will apply for it then saying , 'actually , it 's going to help you ' , because they do n't want to be seen being dependent , they do n't want to be seen being helped . but , if you say to them , 'actually , do you know that this means more money for your child 's school ? ' , they go , 'oh , all right then , i 'll fill in the forms now . ' so , you 're right , i think there is something that we could do to make parents understand , in the round , that this has an impact . but we are actively looking at and discussing whether we could create a dataset around adopted children and how we can do that in line with data protection and data sharing . one of the things i am concerned about in the performance of looked-after children generally is how we can , across government , work more closely together . we ca n't see the educational attainment of looked-after children just being a job of education . it 's got to be a job of social services and the health service as well . there 's got to be a joined-up approach to doing that . now , officials were at the ministerial advisory group that 's chaired by david melding on prospects for looked-after children . they were there at the group last week . david tells me that the paper was very positively received by the group . i will be sitting down with david melding to talk through what more we can do on the education side . i think there 's really an appetite between me and the minister for children to get a closer working relationship on this . we ca n't expect schools to do it on their own and alone . and there are things that we can do out there in local authorities to help improve outcomes . it 's not just about the pdg ; it is about , when social services are thinking about a placement , where does the discussion about where children are going to go to school—when does that take place ? do we talk about the placement , move a child and then think , 'oh my goodness me , what are we going to do about the schooling ? ' if you can imagine , the school could have been working really , really hard with a pupil to get them in a good place , to get them being able to access the curriculum , and then social services decide that the placement is being changed . so , we potentially lose all of that . so , a greater involvement in education and better linked-up working in local authorities will help us with this . it ca n't be just the job of the pdg . if we think we can crack this with just pdg , then we 're being delusional . it has to be a cross-government approach at a national level , and at a local government level as well , to get this right . sometimes , data protection—how can we break down some of these barriers between , you know , the school does n't need to , schools should n't see , the entire social services report ? well , maybe the school does need to see some of that background information if they 're going to have an impact for that child . so , there 's more work to do , but it can not be just the job of education on its own if we 're going to make a difference , nor can it just be the job of the pdg to make a difference for those children . lynne neagle am: thank you . julie 's got some more questions on the impact on adopted and looked-after children . julie morgan am: yes , before i go on to those , i just wanted to support , really , what mark was saying about adopted children and how important it is , i think , that the adoptive parents feel able to speak to the school and to give information . because certainly any evidence we 've had from adoptive parents , and generally knowing about what adoptive parents do feel , is that they often feel that there 's a degree of a lack of sensitivity in the school about the issues of adoption . i would certainly support some move towards ensuring that the atmosphere was open in a way that would encourage them to realise that it would be a help for the children if there was an awareness in the school . so , i just wanted to really reinforce that . kirsty williams am: yes , and that would chime with what i hear from many adoptive parents . i 'm just trying to be sensitive by saying we ca n't force people to divulge this information if they do n't want to . julie morgan am: no , but they need to be given the opportunity . kirsty williams am: yes , you 're right . we need to make sure that those parents feel that they can discuss this with school leaders and classroom teachers and explore how best those individual children can be supported , and how best we can support parents . because , again—and i 've said this a lot—after the quality of teaching , the second biggest impact on a child 's educational outcome will be parental engagement . so , being able to create an environment where adoptive parents feel very confident and able to talk about their children 's education is absolutely crucial if we 're going to get that parental engagement that we need for all of our children . julie morgan am: yes . thank you . going on to looked-after children , you say that the latest data on looked-after children 's attainment is extremely disappointing . can you expand on that and what effect the pdg has had in this result , or not had ? kirsty williams am: well , there 's no getting away from it : the way in which we currently measure outcomes for looked-after children , the results are not good enough . it 's a source of huge concern to me that we need to do better for those children . that 's why officials are engaging with the group that david melding is chairing , to make sure that education is integral to that group and it 's not lost sight of . there 's a discussion to be had about the cohort , whether it 's right and correct to compare looked-after children to the main cohort , or whether these statistics are useful in any way . sometimes as well—this is not to make an excuse because , as i 've said in my paper , it 's extremely disappointing , but sometimes it can be really difficult . because the cohort sometimes can be very , very small , it can swing the statistics to look perhaps more dramatic . julie morgan am: i think , generally , when you look at how looked-after children do— kirsty williams am: it 's not good . julie morgan am: —in a much wider evaluation , they 're not doing well , are they ? kirsty williams am: they 're not doing well . so , that 's why we 've got the review , the independent review , into the impact of the pdg in this area . this is why steve is doing the work that he is doing with the regional consortia because , clearly , at the moment , we are not doing what we need to do for that particular cohort of children . i would not make any bones about that at all . steve davies: i think we will not move away from the fact that these children need good gcses to gain employment , so we 'll continue to measure that . i think we need to look at more nuanced evaluations of the data at a lower level . so , for example , there were significant improvements in terms of pdg pupils who got three and four good gcses but did n't get past the threshold . that 's not to cover anything that is not working in terms of improvement , but we will look at the full range and still hold on to the fact that we have to look at a measure that relates to the likelihood of these children going on to further education and training . julie morgan am: and then just one more question about the exclusion rates amongst looked-after children . they are , i understand , over six times more likely to be given a fixed-term exclusion . so , is there any way of trying to address this ? is the pdg used for anything to do with exclusions ? kirsty williams am: we can look at exclusions . we also have to read across about how the whole system works , not just the pdg element of the system . so , we know , for example , that 66 per cent of looked-after learners have some additional learning need , so we ca n't just look at it in terms of this particular source of funding ; we have to look at it at a wider level of support . so , given that the majority of those children will have an aln , how can we make sure that our new aln legislation and our new aln regime meets the needs of these children ? so , i think what we 're looking at , again , is to say that it ca n't be just the job of the pdg . that 's there as an additional level of support , but actually , we 've got to get our aln right . unless we get our aln right , lots and lots of these children are not going to get the support that they need day in , day out via that system . we do know that sometimes , if we 're not addressing aln , then we 're not addressing behaviour issues that then potentially lead to an expulsion or potentially lead to non-attendance . so , we 've got to look at it in the round and recognise the connections between the sometimes quite complex needs that these children have within the school setting , that are not just as a result of the fact that they 're looked after ; they have other needs as well . steve davies: and investment in well-being— kirsty williams am: absolutely . steve is reminding me that that 's why well-being is part of the national mission—to address issues around supporting children with their well-being , which is a way of keeping them in school . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 're going to move on to schools challenge cymru now . llyr . llyr gruffydd am: thank you , chair . i was just wondering what your assessment is as to why some schools made progress and others did n't . kirsty williams am: i think we have to recognise that the 39 schools that were part of the programme were in very , very different places . so , i think one of the reasons why some schools did well was because their needs were not so complex , not so deep-seated and a certain level of intervention was enough to get them moving forward . some schools had very , very different needs . i think , talking to those involved in the programme , as always , we had some support advisers , challenge advisers working with those schools as part of the programme who were really , really excellent and really good , and were the right fit for the school and really drove the school onwards . we had other people employed in the programme who , perhaps , were less effective at driving change within those individual schools . so , what we have is a mixed bag of performance , again reflecting the very different challenges that those schools were facing , which led them to be chosen for the programme in the first place . llyr gruffydd am: yes , okay— steve davies: sorry . one of the other key additional factors was the extent to which there had been recent appointment of a new headteacher to that school just before the programme had started , because— kirsty williams am: leadership is all . llyr gruffydd am: and that was seen as a positive . steve davies: a positive , yes . i think one of the challenges is that sometimes the time it takes to make changes in leadership can be protracted and can be a barrier , sometimes , to the speed with which you can move . but , for a significant minority of the schools , there had been recent new appointments of headteachers , which was seen to be contributing , when you looked at the evaluation , to the speed with which they were able to engage . llyr gruffydd am: the reason i was asking was i wanted to understand what lessons the government is taking from that three-year investment , really , and how , maybe , you 're applying some of those lessons to your wider school improvement programme . i know professor mel ainscow identified six interconnected lessons , although i also note that the cabinet secretary did n't actually meet him for about six or seven months after coming into post . so , i 'm just wondering , can you give us confidence that , actually , you are serious about taking lessons from schools challenge cymru and applying them to the wider school improvement agenda ? kirsty williams am: well , absolutely , llyr . i do n't think anything should be read into when i met the individual concerned , because officials were meeting the individual concerned . individual challenge advisers were meeting with the regions , there was crossover work with the fsm agenda as well , and we are absolutely determined that best practice and those interventions that drove school improvement are embedded in the new support that we have via the regional consortia . it 's no coincidence that some of the best people that were employed by schools challenge cymru are now in the employment of our regional consortia . so , those people that were really good and really made a difference do n't work for the schools challenge cymru scheme any more , they work for our regional school improvement services . so , we 're absolutely determined . the things that we have learned , as always , are around leadership . it is absolutely key and crucial to have strong , capable school leadership as a driver for change within the system . we 're looking at systems and processes , so , actually , has a school got in place comprehensive systems of tracking and processes within the school ? we 're looking at the teacher quality—how can we ensure that we have got consistent strategies in place to drive up pedagogy and teacher quality in the classroom ? collaborative activity—again , absolutely key . a school can not see itself in isolation , and one of the key themes of the national mission is a self-improving system , so , collaborative working where schools are looking outside of each other , learning from best practice from other schools . so , there are lots of things that we 've drawn from the evaluation that you will see as key themes running through the national mission , and , as i said , it 's no coincidence that our really good people that were working in schools challenge cymru are now working for the regional consortia , being able to use that expertise not just for a very small proportion of our schools—but that expertise is available to all our schools . llyr gruffydd am: although estyn has told us , of course , that you ca n't expect the consortia to really carry on with that level of intervention and the same kind of intensity as was provided previously , so i 'm just wondering— kirsty williams am: in what way ? llyr gruffydd am: well , we were told by estyn in evidence that they did n't necessarily think that we could expect the consortia to provide the same type of tailored support , and certainly the level of intensity with the improvement boards and everything— kirsty williams am: well , the improvement boards are carrying on , so the improvement boards still exist , and i would—not that i want to argue with estyn— llyr gruffydd am: well , feel free ; this is your opportunity to do so if you— kirsty williams am: what i would say is that those improvement boards are staying on , and our schools categorisation system is used to identify the level of support . now , if you 're a red school , that gives you the entitlement to 25 days of support . that is more than you would have got under the schools challenge cymru programme , which would 've been 20 days . so , actually , moving to this system allows us to really focus in on those schools that need that intensive level of support . and what 's important for me , llyr , in this , okay , is that those schools are not necessarily just the schools that were in the programme . our system now of challenge , advice and support allows us to target resources across all of our schools and across all of our sectors , because you 'll be aware that schools challenge was only available to secondary schools , not available to primary schools . what our system now allows us to do , via the schools categorisation , is to identify schools , wherever they are in wales and whatever sector they 're in , to have that intensive level of support that they need to make improvements . llyr gruffydd am: so , you 're confident that that level of momentum is continuing through the consortia that was previously enjoyed by those particular schools , and you 're also confident that there is minimal risk that they 'll slip back to where they were , potentially , or at least part of the way back . kirsty williams am: well , actually , there are some really good examples of some of the schools challenge cymru schools making that sustained improvement now that the programme has come to an end . you only have to look at tredegar , where we have seen continual improvement and moving up through the categorisation system . that school is now a green school , so they 've been able to sustain their progress at the end of the programme . if we look at armando in eastern high school , again—gosh , my goodness me , we had lots of debates in a previous chamber about the future of eastern . there was one person that said that eastern had to be closed and that the only way forward for that particular school was for it to be shut down , but what we have seen is investment via schools challenge cymru , but ongoing , continual support from the regional consortium , and that school has come out of special measures . i pay absolute tribute to the staff of that school and that community that have done such a good job . so , i 'm absolutely convinced that where we 've got good leadership and good support , some of those schools are making continued , sustained progress even after the end of the programme . the challenge for me is for those schools that schools challenge cymru did n't work for , and we have n't seen that progress—how we can use our school improvement system now to continue to work with those schools to give them the level of support that they need to make a difference . so that 's what my focus is on now : a whole-system approach , rather than choosing 39 schools to get that level of support , when we recognise that there are schools everywhere , potentially , that need intervention , support and challenge , and in the primary sector as well . llyr gruffydd am: okay . so , you would n't agree with a number of—well , the near-unanimous evidence that we 've had from academics , some of whom are government advisers from consortia et cetera , that this kind of programme such as schools challenge cymru would probably need about five years to really have the impact that it was intended to have . kirsty williams am: what i would say is that , from my understanding , from the outset , it was a time-limited programme . the schools were aware of that . there were no surprises that it was supposed to be a time-limited programme . evidence from across the uk showed that school challenge programmes have differed in time . so , for instance , manchester 's challenge was a three-year programme . so , there 's no consensus about how many years you need to run a programme for . the previous minister was quite clear about the time-limited nature of the programme . that 's not to say it was the wrong decision , because what 's important , and an ongoing legacy of the programme , was the investment in regional school improvement capacity , because at the time our school improvement services and the regions were young , in their infancy . the ability of individual local authorities to make a difference , with so many local authorities in an estyn categorisation , was limited , so one of the ongoing legacies of the programme is that significant investment of over £10 million in the capacity of the regions to be able to continue this support and the school improvement work . llyr gruffydd am: so , how disappointed were you that the money for schools challenge cymru went back into reserves and did n't stay in your envelope , as you described it earlier ? i presume you made a pitch for it . did you make a case for that money to stay within your department ? kirsty williams am: llyr , we are constantly having discussions with the minister for finance around support for the education budget . the minister for finance was quite clear that it was a time-limited programme . we were able to secure investment from the finance minister to be able to secure the programme and run it and phase it out to make sure there was transition support , so as we moved from the schools challenge programme into the regional consortia , there were resources to do that . llyr gruffydd am: did you feel there was a case to be made to add to the consortia 's resources and be able to continue that level of support that schools had previously had ? kirsty williams am: well , we did make resources available to the regional consortia to do that . as i say , from the outset , the previous minister was very clear it was a time-limited programme . certainly the schools that i talk to— . and i want to be absolutely clear : i have visited many , many schools challenge cymru schools . i have used that opportunity to talk to them about—heolddu being one of them , hefin , which we went to visit , and willows , for instance . i 'm going to one this afternoon—i 'm going to st illtyd 's this afternoon , and i always take— . i 've been to caergybi in anglesey . i always take the opportunity to speak to those teachers about their experience of the programme and to understand and assure myself that they are getting ongoing support that they see as an appropriate level for them . i think i 've done 19 of the schools . lynne neagle am: hefin on this . hefin david am: with regard to it being a time-limited programme , the previous minister was clear that it was a time-limited programme , but it was n't quite as time-limited as you 've decided to be . is that fair to say ? kirsty williams am: no , it was supposed to be a three-year programme at the most . so , there 's no differential between when i decided it was time-limited and the expectations— hefin david am: so the time limit was the same that the previous minister put on it . kirsty williams am: yes . no change . llyr gruffydd am: but mel ainscow did tell us that there was a fade out in that third year—not that people were giving up , do n't get me wrong , but clearly there was n't that commitment coming from government because the decision had been made , and people felt that it was just fizzling out a little bit , and that impacted on the momentum . kirsty williams am: i would n't characterise it as that . i think there certainly was a transition phase when we knew that the programme was moving and schools were moving into a different level of support , but i certainly would n't describe it as a fading out—not at all . as i said , we were aware that the programme was transitioning and we were determined to get that right for those individual schools , and to learn the lessons and , crucially , to be able to apply those lessons right across the board . steve davies: i can see where the perception would come if a programme director like mel was managing the programme right to the end of the three years exactly the same , and it falls off—not a cliff , but it falls off , then the readiness for schools and the readiness in the system to hand over—so part of the shift of focus was that working as a government with the programme in those schools to working with the programme , those schools and the region . so , i think , inevitably , one party might see it as a decrease in terms of emphasis on their work , but it was necessary for the transition . llyr gruffydd am: but does that cast a bit of a shadow over the transition , then—that one key player within that process felt as such , or are you confident that that was managed well and effectively ? kirsty williams am: i think it was managed well , and we were very clear to recognise success where success has been achieved , but not to gloss over where the programme had not made an impact , because that would n't be good for anybody . there was a formal event to close the programme , which gave everybody an opportunity to get together , to be formally thanked , and for , as i said , congratulations to be given to those people who had really made a difference and , crucially , key staff transferred over into the regional consortia . so , for those individuals , they were able to continue their work , but just be able to apply that work on a regional basis rather than just in an individual school . so , i do n't see that there was any fading out , but there was a transition into a new system , and many of those key personnel transitioned into the system with us . lynne neagle am: have you got any figures for the numbers of staff who went from the programme into the consortia ? kirsty williams am: not off the top of my head , but i can let you know . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got darren first , then mark . kirsty williams am: and can i just say , i met with some of them ? i met with a selection of those people who had been involved in the programme to get their feedback on what they felt had gone right , and what they did n't feel had gone right in the programme . so , i took the time not just to meet the figurehead of the programme , but actually to meet the people who were doing the work in the individual schools . sorry . darren millar am: yes , i just wanted to ask you , you mentioned the figurehead there , i assume by 'the figurehead ' you mean professor ainscow . and you 've mentioned as well that you said you wanted to learn lessons from schools challenge cymru , but he told us that nobody had been in touch with him since march of last year in order to have any sort of follow-up engagement , or to have a dialogue about his perspective on what worked , what did n't work , why there were failures in some areas and why there were successes in others . why have n't you sought that level of engagement with the person who was responsible for running the programme ? kirsty williams am: i 've had that conversation with mr ainscow . we had the evaluation of the programme . we 've spoken to the people who were actually involved in running the programme on a daily basis in individual schools . we 've spoken to the regional consortia . we 've spoken to local education authorities . we 've spoken to a wide variety of people to get their insight into the lessons learned , what was valuable and what was not valuable . so , a wide variety of people have been involved in those conversations . darren millar am: but you 've hardly engaged with mr ainscow—with professor ainscow himself . steve davies: i would actually say that i have had meetings— darren millar am: since march of last year . steve davies: yes , since march of last year . i have n't got the exact dates for you . i 've had discussions with mel ainscow , and my line manager at the time , owen evans , also had meetings and discussions . darren millar am: so , when he told us , 'since last march , i literally have had no contact at all with anybody from welsh government ' , he was telling porky pies , was he ? steve davies: that 's not my recollection . i 'll go back and check for you . lynne neagle am: if you could check and let us know , that would be good . mark . kirsty williams am: yes , well , i just talked about the celebration event to formally mark the end of the programme . my understanding was that it was july of last year , so people were engaged in that . and this idea that somebody has been ignored or frozen out is not how i see or how i regard that situation . lynne neagle am: mark . mark reckless am: i have to say , with professor ainscow my impression was he took great , great pride in the work that he 'd done with schools challenge cymru , and i think he really enjoyed the engagement , the work and the positive relations with the welsh government . but i think there was just a degree of disappointment , perhaps , that at least he did n't feel that he 'd been interrogated as much as he might have been about the lessons learned from the programme , and how perhaps to entrench those as well as possible with the regional consortia . i just wonder , cabinet secretary , if you could invite the professor in , perhaps to have a further debrief with you and take account of some of his thoughts and suggestions for what might help in this area . kirsty williams am: well , mark , as i said , i just do n't think it should be right to characterise this as a failure to engage with a single individual . mark reckless am: i 'm not characterising it that way , cabinet secretary . kirsty williams am: as i said , i met with him , steve has met with him , owen evans has met with him , my special policy adviser has met with him and had discussions . so , there has been an ongoing dialogue . but , mark , i hope that i have demonstrated since i took on this job that i am willing to work with a wide variety of people and to tap into their expertise if it can help me to deliver on the national mission . and if the advice to me is that we have n't sufficiently learnt the lessons , then i 'll gladly have another conversation . what i 'm saying to you—and i 'm absolutely confident—is that we have learnt the lessons , we are taking that work and the good practice forward , and we have done that with conversations with a wide variety of people who had a view on this , from individual schools that were involved in the programme , individual people who were working in those schools , local education authorities , some of which have been very scathing about the programme , i should say , regional consortia— . so , the lessons , i am confident , have been learnt . mark reckless am: i 'm glad to hear that , cabinet secretary , but i still say that , listening to professor ainscow 's evidence , there was a perception , at least from him individually , that the programme should not be seen to be a failure , but a desire that the lessons should be learnt and a feeling or exception , at least on his part , that there was more that he still had to contribute to the process . and just to take one particular example , i think he referred to the schools challenge cymru advisers being very successful in bringing in people who might not otherwise have contributed to this , and the regional consortia have had greater challenges in recruiting people , perhaps in some areas , of the same high standard of some particular individuals , but also from a wide range of different areas that the schools challenge cymru do , and that there could be more to learn in that area as to how to support real excellence and a greater diversity of recruitment for those people . is that something you could perhaps draw on his thoughts further about ? because i think he does feel that he has more to say to welsh government to help in this area . kirsty williams am: firstly , can i say that i have never described the programme as a failure ? i would understand , as someone who has put so much personal investment into the brand of schools challenges , that he would not want anybody to characterise that particular approach to school improvement as a failure . and i want to be absolutely clear that i have never described the programme as a failure , and i want to reassure mr ainscow of that . as i 've said , gosh , my goodness me , if you saw my e-mail inbox and you saw the letters that come in , people are never shy in coming forward to give me advice on what i need to do , what i need to do next , what i 'm doing right , what i 'm doing wrong , and , you know , our doors are always open to listen to people who have interesting things to say about how we can deliver our educational mission . so , people are n't slow in coming forward , i can assure you , with advice . lynne neagle am: julie . julie morgan am: just very quickly . i 'm sure the minister is aware that cardiff put extra funds of its own in to continue schools challenge cymru advisers . so , obviously , they appreciated the value of the scheme , but it does query whether it should have gone on longer . kirsty williams am: julie , i think , to be fair , there are some people who think the scheme was absolutely fantastic . i 've had feedback from people who did n't think the scheme was helpful at all—in fact , they felt it was a hindrance . i 'm very much of the view that the scheme worked really well for some schools in some areas and had less impact in some areas . there is a mixed picture . what 's important to me is that we understand what it was that led those schools to make those big changes , how we can—like mark talked about , the expertise—how we can keep that expertise in the system , and how we can apply the lessons to all schools . lynne neagle am: the next questions , and the final questions , are from john . so , we 're going to need succinct questions and succinct answers . john griffiths am: some questions on regional consortia , cabinet secretary , and , first of all , the role that you believe they should play and how schools use pdg . kirsty williams am: well , it 's an absolute— . it 's one of the things that i have been very clear to the regional consortia that i expect their challenge and support advisers to be asking schools about . so , one of the conversations that they need to have when they are in schools is exploring , with that school , how they are using their pdg , and how they 're demonstrating an impact for those resources . so , it 's a fundamental role for the challenge and support advisers in the regional consortia in their school improvement work . it 's crucial . john griffiths am: that sort of brings to mind some of the research that 's been done on the role of the challenge advisers , cabinet secretary , which suggested that they 're not actually challenging schools in that way , and that there 's very little evidence of schools changing their decisions on the use of pdg as a result of any challenge from those challenge advisers . so , how would you respond to those findings ? kirsty williams am: well , as i said , in my scrutiny of the role and success of our regional consortia , i specifically asked them about free-school-meal performance and the use of pdg within their particular region . i think there is increasing evidence to suggest that good use is being made of that resource , and i think that is being fed back into us . estyn tell us that it 's one of the areas of school expenditure that is closely linked to research and an evidence base . but , clearly , there is more to do , and that 's why we have appointed the new regional advisers for pdg going forward , because we think there can be improvements in how this agenda can be supported at a regional level . john griffiths am: okay . so , you would recognise the findings from that research . kirsty williams am: yes . there 's always more that we can do , and we are strengthening that role by the appointment of the new regional pdg advisers , so that individual school challenge advisers know what they should be looking for , know what they should be doing , and there is a regional approach to good practice . john griffiths am: okay . could you tell the committee , cabinet secretary , how effective you believe the relationship was between the schools challenge cymru programme and the regional consortia 's school improvement functions , and to what extent it varied by region ? kirsty williams am: i think it 's fair to say that , on occasion , i have received feedback that there was a conflict between what was going on at an individual school under the school improvement programme and whether , then , they welcomed support from the regional consortia as part of that . so , in some cases , if we 're being absolutely honest , there could sometimes be tensions between the two , but in most cases , the relationship was very , very positive and there was continuous feedback between the work going on in the schools under the programme and the regional consortia challenge advisers . but i 'm going to be blunt and honest with people—in some cases , it has been reported to me—it 's only anecdotal evidence ; i have n't got hard and fast evidence—that there sometimes was a conflict : 'we 're a school challenge school so we do n't need to participate or listen to any advice that 's coming from the regional consortia . ' or , a local education authority said to me , 'we felt that we could n't get involved in that school anymore because it was part of a different programme . ' those were isolated incidents , and , as i said , it 's only anecdotal feedback . in most cases , the relationship was a very positive one . steve davies: just very quickly , i think that , across the board , it was more complex in the beginning , getting— [ inaudible. ] . but when the programme itself recognised that they needed to work with the regions , and the regions needed to work with them—and i think mel ainscow in his evidence referred to this—it strengthened after some early challenges . i think mel ainscow was working in a number of regions—i ca n't remember which ones—so he 's established relationships— [ interruption . ] sorry ? kirsty williams am: central south . steve davies: central south . he has already been working in that , so i think it possibly had a stronger springboard in terms of the early working . kirsty williams am: because he already had relationships that he had already developed in that particular region . as always , with many of these things , it 's about individuals and relationships . john griffiths am: okay . finally from me , cabinet secretary : in 2015-16 , estyn reported on regional consortia not sufficiently focusing on particular groups of pupils and tracking their outcomes—for example , vulnerable pupils . i just wonder what you are able to tell us in terms of to what extent there has been necessary progress since 2015-16 . kirsty williams am: okay . well , i think it 's important to recognise that all four consortia underwent monitoring visits in the autumn of last year , of 2017 , which were n't reflected in the estyn annual report for 2015-16. estyn , through these 2017 inspections , have said that three out of the four regional consortia are making strong progress in their particular work , and we are continuing , as welsh government , to work with the other regional consortia to address the findings of the estyn report . john griffiths am: and that would include these particular issues . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . the committee probably has n't had an opportunity to see , but , only this morning , estyn has released a report on more able and talented , and has positive things to say in the field of more able and talented , which was being asked about earlier by members—you know , evidence of improved working and support in that particular arena . but , again , we need to ensure a consistency across all the regions , and that the findings of estyn 's most recent reports into regional performance are followed through . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . as we 've got a couple of minutes left , if i can just jump back to the issue of practical uses of the pdg—because it 's the only thing we have n't really covered and it would be good to get on the record—can i ask to what extent you 'd like to see the pdg used to track the progress of eligible pupils ? and the committee 's heard that there are several different tracking systems and tools used by schools . to what extent is that an issue to do with what the welsh government is promoting ? or is it down to consortia or individual schools ? and do you think there needs to be a more centralised push on how the tracking is undertaken ? kirsty williams am: firstly , can i say it 's absolutely crucial that we track performance , absolutely crucial ? that 's the bedrock . we do n't dictate to individual schools the nature of the system that they should employ in their school . there are a number of different programmes that allow schools to do this , but we are absolutely clear , and best practice and evidence shows us , that individual pupil tracking is key and crucial . and , as i said in the beginning , where we were n't tracking pupils at all , initial investment in pdg was used to establish these systems within schools . again , one of the outcomes from the schools challenge review , and one of the lessons learnt , was , again , the importance of individual tracking of pupils throughout their school career . but we do n't dictate a single system . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . kirsty williams am: but the principle is a really important one . lynne neagle am: okay , and you do n't think there 's more scope to look at what the best system is that can be recommended to schools . kirsty williams am: that 's not something we 're actively looking at . i am actively looking at developing a welsh toolkit around good practice , evidence base and research . at the moment we use the sutton trust toolkit , which is fine and excellent , but we are having active discussions about whether we 're in a position , now , to look at developing a suite of a welsh toolkit to support this agenda , and that 's under active consideration . lynne neagle am: okay . well , we 've reached the end of our session . can i thank the cabinet secretary and the officials for attending and for answering such a wide range of questions ? as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you again for coming . kirsty williams am: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: thank you . okay . item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the minister for children and social care on families first funding . paper to note 2 is a letter from the cabinet secretary for education , updating us on the supply teacher issue . paper to note 3—another letter from the cabinet secretary for education , providing further information following our meeting on 15 february . paper to note 4 is a letter from the wjec on availability of textbooks . paper to note 5—a letter from qualifications wales , also on availability of textbooks . and paper to note 6 is a letter from the cabinet secretary for education to the children 's commissioner for wales , following up on the dialogue that they 've been having about our inquiry . are members happy to note those ? thank you . item 4 , then , is for me to propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

as identified by estyn , most schools are using this money to good effect . when pdg first started , in some schools it was spent on investing in tracking children , because they had never thought about tracking these children , they did n't have systems in place to look at the performance of these children and to have a system in place . now they have moved from spending money on the infrastructure around support for fsm children into actual inputs in terms of teaching and learning . and they have appointed regional pdg advisers to better deploy the fund .

how would the group assess the impact of pdg on attendance and subsequent engagement with education from children having free school meals ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to this morning 's children , young people and education committee . we 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members who are present if they wish to declare any interests ? okay , thank you . item 2 this morning is our final evidence session for our inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams am , cabinet secretary for education ; steve davies , director of the education directorate ; and ruth conway , deputy director , support for learners division . welcome to all of you , and thank you for your attendance and also for the paper that you 've provided in advance . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions , and the first questions are from llyr gruffydd . llyr gruffydd am: bore da . i just want to start by asking some questions around the targeting of the pupil development grant because , clearly , we 've had a lot of evidence around this apparent blurring of eligibility to an extent . i 'm just wondering how comfortable you are that the money is being targeted appropriately because , clearly , it 's being targeted more widely than just those eligible for free school meals , from some of the evidence we 've had , but also that it seems to be predominantly focused on low-attaining frees—pupils who are eligible for free school meals . kirsty williams am: thank you , llyr . i think it 's important to be absolutely clear that when it comes to individual interventions , those individual interventions should only be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals . but in some cases , schools may use their pdg funding to provide a universal intervention , but we would want to—in challenge advisers ' discussions in schools—we 'd want to have evidence that that universal intervention would have a disproportionate effect on the outcomes for children on free school meals . so , for instance , if i give you an example in your own region , llyr : at brynteg county primary school in wrexham , if you look at that primary school in wrexham , their results for free-school-meal children at the end of their primary school period in school are equivalent to their non-free-school-meal counterparts . so , there is no differentiation in those results . one of the things that they 've used their pdg for is to really focus on the concept of growth mindset in school . so , that 's a universal thing that they 've trained all the teachers in , but what we know is that that has a disproportionate effect on those children who are on free school meals . so , if you 're familiar with the concept of a growth mindset , it 's about really challenging learners to think that , ' i can do things . if sometimes i fail , i pick myself up , i 'm more resilient . ' now , that has been , as i said , trained to all the teachers in the school—it 's an ethos for the whole school—but we have seen that the impact on the free-school-meal children has been even greater , and now they 're at the same level . so , that 's the important distinction . individual intervention per child has to be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals , but sometimes a school will employ a whole-school approach to train their staff , for instance , and that , then , has to demonstrate it has a disproportionate effect on free school meals . so , growth mindset ; it may be attachment disorder training for staff , for instance , where we know it 's of benefit to everybody , but will have particular benefits for that cohort of students . with regard to more able and talented , you know , llyr , that this is an area of concern for me , generally , within the welsh education system ; that we 've not been particularly good at identifying , supporting and driving attainment for those children . i 'm absolutely clear that pdg needs to be used for those children who are eligible to drive potential , whatever the potential of that child is , including more able and talented . and again , i 'll give you an example that has been seen as good practice in pembrokeshire : a window on the world bus , again paid for by schools . i do n't know if you 're aware of it . llyr gruffydd am: we 've heard about that . kirsty williams am: oh , you 've heard about it ; well , it 's a really good example the window on the world . and , again , that 's very much targeted at raising aspirations and giving children who are more able and talented , who are eligible for pdg , those experiences , and to really push them . so , yes , i 'm absolutely clear that pdg should n't just be seen to be getting individuals to the average . for those children who are more able and talented , it should be used to support them— llyr gruffydd am: and we all share those aspirations , i 'm sure , and you pointed to examples of good practice , but of course , it 's not universal , is it , so what i 'm asking is : do you think that the guidance is sufficient as it is ? do you think that there 's a great enough awareness of how the pdg should be used at the coalface ? and also , are you confident that consortia and others have the measures in place to be able to demonstrate that it is being used properly ? kirsty williams am: i think , if we look at what estyn has said about pdg , it does actually recognise that the pdg is being used to push more able and talented children , but as always with the system , llyr , it 's whether we can be sure that that is strategic and that it 's happening across all of our schools . so , you're— llyr gruffydd am: but not just in relation to more able and talented , i 'm referring to the eligibility and the targeting . kirsty williams am: oh , the eligibility . you 'll be aware that , on the advice of sir alasdair , we have employed and appointed new pdg regional advisers , and i think their role is going to be absolutely crucial in spreading that good practice across the region , whether that 's use of pdg for more able and talented , or ensuring that pdg is used in the appropriate way . so , that 's there to provide strategic overall advice . and obviously , we have been very clear with regional challenge advisers , in the relationship and the conversations they 're having with individual schools , that they 're really challenging their schools about the use of pdg , not just in terms of targeting , but the programmes , what the money is being spent on , whether there is an evidence base for that and whether we are clear on impact . so , i think the new regional advisers are going to be crucial in enabling us to ensure more consistent practice across the regions . llyr gruffydd am: so , are you content that eligibility for free school meals is the best measure , really , of identifying which pupils to target ? kirsty williams am: llyr , in the absence of anything better . i 'll be the first person to say that maybe it 's not as absolutely focused , but in the absence of anything different to identify a proxy for need , i think it 's probably the best that we 've got at present . and we will continue to have discussions with local government about whether there are different ways . we have to be mindful . some of the policy levers in this area are out of my hands , so if we look at the roll-out of universal credit , for instance , we 've got officials working very hard at the moment to try and understand what universal credit is going to mean and where we are going to be able to identify relative need , going forward . we have n't had any additional resource as a result of this , but we 're very mindful that , potentially , this has an impact , going forward . and , officials are working all of the time , i must say , in conjunction with the department in england , to understand their thinking in this area so that we are in a position to make some decisions about what a notional eligibility for free school meals will look like going forward , but before i make any decisions , i want to assure everybody that there will be a full public consultation on that . llyr gruffydd am: okay . finally for now , on this issue of once a year , in january , if you 're eligible for free school meals , then you 're in that group for that year . we 've had some quite strong evidence about how difficult that makes longer term planning for a number of schools and we 've also been pointed in the direction of what 's happened in england with the ever 6 , and i 'm just wondering whether you 're giving any thought to maybe changing that a little bit . kirsty williams am: well , we 're certainly giving thought to flexibility . in conversations with alasdair , who is our independent adviser on this agenda , and individual schools , we 're actively giving thought to greater flexibility and maybe longer term projections , so that schools know , for a number of years ahead , what their allocation will be . there are advantages to that system , because you could give that flexibility , you could give that long-term approach , but then , how do you make that responsive if a school suddenly has more children ? we do know that , actually , the number of free-school-meal pupils is dropping . but there can be changes , you know , regional working in areas of north wales in tourism , or maybe in other areas at christmas time , parents are able to get a period of work . so , how can we create a more flexible system ? we 're actively looking at that at the moment . i would n't use it as an ever 6 concept , but as an 'ever 2 ' concept . we have looked at ever 6 , and i 'm going to be absolutely blunt with you : to introduce an ever 6 concept for wales would mean in the region of identifying an additional £40 million . i 'm going to be absolutely straight and blunt with you : we 're not in a position at the moment to be able to identify an additional £40 million to introduce an ever 6. but issues around flexibility , certainly , are actively under consideration . in fact , we 'll be having a discussion later on today about decisions , going forward , for the next two years . llyr gruffydd am: thank you . lynne neagle am: darren on this . darren millar am: it 's just a very brief point in response to the £40 million price ticket that you just put on that . that 's , of course , assuming that you maintain the current level of pdg , yes ? so , if you reduced the level of pdg slightly , but made it available to more individuals , if you like , via allocating it in a different way , then that £40 million price ticket would n't be there , would it ? kirsty williams am: i was asked a question about had i ever considered an ever 6. we have looked at that , we 've priced that up . i have to make decisions in the envelope of resources that are available to me . we could , indeed , change the way in which we allocate pdg money , but we have to do it within the envelope that is available to me , over £90 million . that 's a significant level of investment , but , of course , as always , darren , we could cut the amount per pupil , but that might have quite challenging swings in allocations . what we have done—because what i am clear on is that there was evidence to suggest that in the secondary sector , a great deal of pdg was being focused on years 10 and 11 , especially year 11 , in catch-up provision , and you 'll be aware , because we 've said this in evidence to the committee in the papers , we 've set a challenge to secondary schools to say , 'actually , the majority of your pdg allocation has to be used in key stage 3 . ' now , we have to balance the needs , the moral hazard of turning round to children in years 10 and 11 and saying , 'we're not going to provide catch-up opportunities for you , ' because , clearly , those children need that support . but the evidence and the advice that we 're receiving is : actually , strong focus on early years , primary and key stage 3 , if we get that right , should negate the need for spending money on catch-up at years 10 and 11. that 's why we , in our advice to local authorities and schools , say that we want to see evidence that they 're spending this money earlier on in a child 's career , rather than just a scramble at year 11 to say , 'right , we 've got to get you through your exams . ' darren millar am: okay , but have you actively considered , then , reducing the level you have ? kirsty williams am: we've— ruth conway: sorry—i was just going to say that one of the things is looking at the scope of the definition , and i think it 's about being more flexible with the definition , rather than reducing the amount per head . darren millar am: okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you . if we can go on , then , to talk about some of the practical uses of the pdg , you write in your written paper that 'the majority of schools are making well thought out and appropriate decisions ' on how to use it . but estyn reported that only two thirds of primary and secondary schools make effective use of the pdg . given that we 've had it now for six years , would you not have expected there to be a higher level of schools actually making good use of that funding ? kirsty williams am: well , to flip it on its head , the vast majority of schools , as identified by estyn , are using this money to good effect . so , that 's the way i like to see it—that the vast majority of schools are doing well . what estyn has also indicated is the intrinsic link here to leadership within individual schools , and as you 'll be aware , leadership , improving capacity in leadership and developing leadership talent in the welsh education system is a key priority for me in our national mission . of course , that 's being developed in a different work stream . i think what 's fair to say is that the use of pdg is evolving over time . i think we are seeing , increasingly , more and more schools understanding how best to deploy that money for best effect for students . so , if we 're honest , when pdg first started , i think , in some schools it was spent on investing in tracking of children , because they 'd never thought about tracking these children , they did n't have systems in place to look at the performance of these children , and to have a system in place . so we 've moved now from spending money on the infrastructure around support for fsm children into actual inputs in terms of teaching and learning . we 're also seeing from estyn that , actually , in terms of money following the evidence of what we know works , estyn says that pdg is probably the best example of schools following tried and tested and evidence-based interventions to deploy the money . but clearly we want all of this money to be deployed as well as it can be , and again we come back to the decision i 've made to appoint regional pdg advisers so that we can get that better consistency of approach . we are , in the discussions that i have with the regional consortia about how they challenge individual schools on usage , looking for very clear evidence of schools using the sutton trust toolkit , and we could have a discussion about whether that 's the right thing , because that 's on my mind too . but we want to see schools demonstrating their evidence base , and if they 're not , if a school is n't doing that , okay , so demonstrate to us why you 've made those decisions and , crucially , what are you doing as the school to judge whether that decision is actually making a difference for your individual pupils . so , if you 're moving away from tried and tested interventions , what we know works , if you 're doing something different with your money , okay , you need to justify that and you need to explain how you 're going to demonstrate impact . but i think what we 're seeing is increasing good practice in this area as the pdg develops and as our understanding of our school-to-school working in our self-improving school system also develops . i think we 're seeing better usage of the money year on year . lynne neagle am: thank you . llyr on this . llyr gruffydd am: you mentioned some schools will be moving from the tried-and-tested interventions , really , and i 'm just wondering to what extent that evolution of use of pdg is being driven by cuts to core funding . kirsty williams am: no , i do n't think it 's being driven by cuts to core funding . i think there has been— . one of the biggest impacts of pdg has not been—well , i suppose it is the money in itself , because the money has concentrated the minds , has n't it ? so , one of the most important things that pdg has done is highlight the importance of this agenda within schools , and really raise this up in the thinking of leadership and senior management teams in our schools , and has driven a focus on scrutiny and accountability in the systems that are working with our schools . i think the changing use of pdg reflects the journeys that schools have been on , some of them from a very low base where this was not a priority for them , to better understanding , and as research and as intelligence grows over time in this area , both in wales and outside of wales , schools are increasingly learning to use that evidence to tailor approaches in their schools . llyr gruffydd am: so you would n't accept at all that some of this money 's being used to paper over some funding cracks from elsewhere . because the unions and some others have told us that , whether we like it or not , there is some of that going on . kirsty williams am: as i said , llyr , we 're very clear about the usage that this money can be spent on in terms of individuals or universal application within schools , and that forms an important part of the checks and balances that we have in our system . can we continue to improve , and ensure that more and more of our schools are employing best practice ? yes , we can , and as i 've said , we 've taken steps to put in place the infrastructure to support that . lynne neagle am: thank you . mark 's questions are next . mark reckless am: cabinet secretary , how would you assess the impact of pdg on attendance and hopefully subsequent engagement with education from children who have free school meals ? kirsty williams am: i think what 's important to note is that , as estyn have themselves said , over the period of the last inspection report , we have seen improvements in attendance , but i do think we need to , again , look at how pdg can support this particular agenda . and as always in the welsh education system , there are some excellent examples of how schools use the money to address this . ysgol y preseli in pembrokeshire is a very good example of how they 've deployed their money . forgive me ; i ca n't off the top of my head remember the name of the primary school i visited , again in north wales , where the school has proactively used this money , and they actually send teaching assistants out of school in the morning before the start of the school day , and they actually have a walking bus . they call at homes for children , and they walk the children to the breakfast club . so , they 're proactively going out into the community and making sure that those children are in the classrooms , because the teacher said , 'we recognised we had a problem with attendance . we tried a variety of means of improving that , but in the end we have taken this quite bold step—we actually send the staff out and they create that walking bus , and they walk the children into school ' . they say that they know that , for some of those children , because of the difficult circumstances they and their families are living in , they probably would n't be in school if it was n't for that proactive approach . so , we 're looking again at what more we can do to support this particular agenda in terms of improving attendance , because although , again , there are examples of good practice , there is still a gap between the attendance of free-school-meal pupils and non-free-school-meal pupils . and , of course , we can have the best curriculum in the world with really high-quality teaching , but unless the children are in the classes then we 're not going to make the difference for them . whilst that differential exists , then it 's going to be hard to close the attainment gap for those children . mark reckless am: i was actually quite shocked just reading in advance of this meeting that the proportion attending 95 per cent or more , who have pretty full attendance , was only 35 per cent for free-school-meal children at level 4 , compared to 60 per cent for non-free-school-meal pupils . it still is an extraordinary difference . my colleague here showed me , i think , last week , a graph showing the link between attendance and attainment , in particular . when people were absent , a lot of the— . as i 'm sure you 're aware , there 's a huge connection . what more can pdg do to deal with it ? in the example you give i can see how a school with an awful lot of free-school-meal children could do that , but a lot of the free-school-meal children are actually in schools that do n't have that high a proportion of free school meals , where it would be much more challenging to bring in that type of initiative . kirsty williams am: yes , indeed , and i think it gets more challenging the older the children get . i think it 's more difficult to find interventions that are successful higher up , so key stage 4. so , you can do a walking bus with little ones , ca n't you , but i do n't suppose your average 15 or 16-year-old is going to take very kindly to that . so , you do need a different approach to that . but again , we see in ysgol y preseli the employment of staff to directly work with families of older children to reinforce the messages around , as you quite rightly say , the linkage between attendance and attainment , and really work with individual families to understand the barriers to attendance : what 's going on in the family that is preventing that child from going to school , and what more can the school do to address those situations . but you 're absolutely right ; there is more that we need to do to address this particular agenda of attainment . i do n't know if there 's anything extra you wanted to add , steve . steve davies: there is also another very good example—and i take what you say about where there are small numbers—but in our secondary schools where there are significant numbers , they 're investing pdg in resources like a school nurse and a school counsellor , not just to work with the children but link to other agencies on whom the children and the families are dependent to support them in terms of working with schools . so , it 's something , particularly in our most challenging areas , where it can not just be delivered within the school . so , good use of that resource is being made to employ people to support them in those wider areas . mark reckless am: thank you . to what extent is pdg also used to seek to reduce the higher rates of exclusion for children entitled to free school meals ? kirsty williams am: so , if we looked at permanent exclusions , there is n't a differential , but if we look at temporary exclusions , there we see there is a disproportionate number of children on free school meals that are subject to those exclusions . again , i think what schools employing best practice understand is that you need a multi-agency approach to supporting that particular child . some of those exclusions can be as a result of the need to address other issues going on in a child 's life . so , this is where we come back to the committee 's work , for instance , on mental health and support for children , support for behaviour in school . so , again , it 's a multi-agency approach that i think we need , and , in our good schools , our really , really good schools , there 's a recognition of that need to have a whole team around a child to support that child in education . with eotas , we made some changes last year regarding pdg for eotas . so , for those children who do find themselves in education other than at school , we are providing additional support that previously was not available . mark reckless am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . we 're going to move on now to talk about the impact of pdg on attainment . hefin david has got some questions . hefin david am: it appears that the attainment gap at 2017 has actually widened , in spite of pdg levels . is that correct ? kirsty williams am: yes . so , if you look at it—with the usual caveats about whether you can make direct comparisons on level 2 plus between the exams the year before and the exams that we had last summer—on the face of it , the gap has increased . i think what 's important to recognise , hefin , is a direction of travel . i 'm sure we all want to , because i want to , have a discussion about why children on free school meals were less resilient in the exam system last year . but , if we look at the period that we have been employing pdg , over that period , we have seen a narrowing of the gap . i think what 's quite stark , if we think about it— . so , if we look at where we started from : in 2009 , one in five children on free school meals got level 2 plus—one in five—by 2016 , we had got that down to one in three . obviously , there 's still a way to go , but , sir alasdair , who knows about these things , says that that is a significant improvement . last year , we got some challenges . we need to understand why that happened , but i do think it's— hefin david am: why , do you think ? kirsty williams am: why , do i think ? what i do think is there is no one answer . there is no one answer to this . i think we could look at and we can have discussions around the move from btec to science gcses . i think we have supplied figures to the committee about the significant change in the number of children on free school meals who were n't doing a single science gcse and are now doing science gcses . we can look at the unintended consequences of literature . again , we 've supplied figures . where children have done language and literature , whether that be through the medium of english or through the medium of welsh , there is more resilience . so , it 's that exposure to literacy in all its forms that i think could potentially make a difference . so , i think there 's no one answer to why free-school-meal children were not so resilient last year . we continue to have discussions with qualifications wales to get a better understanding of this . at my next ministerial policy board , in may , we 'll be doing a deep dive into this particular subject . hefin david am: so , to what extent would exam boards be responsible for lack of grade stability ? kirsty williams am: it could be one of the contributory factors . what i think is important is that there is no one , single reason why there seems to be less resilience in this cohort of children . hefin david am: will you be speaking to the exam boards about this and raising concerns ? kirsty williams am: i have written to qualifications wales , we 've had discussions about it , but i 've asked them to formally submit evidence ahead of my policy board for may , where , as i said , we will be doing a formal , deep-dive discussion across the department about these issues . but , again , hefin , what we 've got to be clear on is—while we look at overall factors , you know , our overall national statistic—we did see some schools last year whose fsm performance was better than it had been the year before . so , what was it in those schools that enabled those children to do really well , whereas , in other schools , the performance was different ? even in individual cities , you can see a huge variety of performance . so , take cardiff and swansea , our two biggest cities . you 've got schools in those cities with comparative levels of free school meals . so , you could have really high-performing schools with a very small number of the cohort on free school meals . the difference between those performances in a single city—so , that 's the same local education authority and the same regional consortium—you can see a massive change . there 's one school i can talk to : their free-school-meal performance is 88 per cent . a similar school in the same city with the same proportion of children on free school meals , their performance is down in the 20 per cents . so , i think what 's important is that we ca n't draw broad-brush conclusions . for me , the challenge is to go into individual schools and understand what was happening in that particular school that ensured that their children did really well . we 've got one school in swansea , their fsm performance at gcse level 2 outperforms non-fsm pupils . hefin david am: but we still need to rely on the trends from a distance . if we take your argument that 2017 was an unusual year and the trends up to 2016 were positive , in a few years ' time , when we will be looking back in two years ' time , how are we going to measure this progress , say , in 2019 ? what are we likely to see and what methods are you going to use to measure progress that way ? kirsty williams am: well , you 'll be aware that we are moving away from level 2 plus as a performance measure anyway because of the— hefin david am: so , what performance measures will you use ? kirsty williams am: so , for the lack of sophistication around the level 2 plus , and for the unintended behaviours that that particular performance measure has driven within our schools . i 'll be making a statement shortly to the assembly around a new performance measure for schools . we were , at our most recent secondary heads conference , working with schools to develop that . what 's important to me is that we have a more sophisticated model that looks at school performance for all children . what level 2 plus does is narrow , very much , the focus of schools on an individual part of the cohort , usually the c/d borderline , which is why then we have problems with the number of students getting a b grade or above . we have marked success in our schools by saying to schools that a c is good enough . well , if a child gets a c but came to you in year 7 and they were destined to get an e , yes , indeed , a c is a success , because you 've moved that child on ; but , if that child came to you destined to get an a * and gets a c , then we have n't done a good job by that particular child . so , we need a performance measure that is much more sophisticated , looks at each individual child , tracks that progress , and measures the value added by that school in performance . hefin david am: last question : therefore , should we have confidence in the data up to 2016 ? is there a lack of confidence in that data ? kirsty williams am: no , it 's not a lack of confidence in the data . the data is the data . what i 'm saying is , using that as a performance measure and an accountability measure within our school system may have been right for the time . i think it is now right to have a different way of measuring success in schools . i think that particular set of performance measures has driven certain behaviours—not because ministers wanted that to happen , but as an unintended consequence . i think we can work together with our school system , learning the lessons of international best practice , to develop much more sophisticated accountability and performance measures for individual schools , and , i should say , for the government . so , you will be aware of my intention to issue the first national report card on government performance later on this year . so , this is not about trying to avoid scrutiny . it 's about trying to develop a more sophisticated way , which is in line with our national mission , where every child 's education is valued , and where the impact of the school can be tracked more effectively . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . can i just ask , cabinet secretary , are you still holding on to your target of 37 per cent of free-school-meal pupils achieving the level 2 threshold ? kirsty williams am: well , we 're moving away from the level 2 threshold . so , that 's the first thing to say . so , we will want to develop a new suite , in line with our new accountability measures , as we go forward . so , we will be absolutely continuing to track and evaluate the performance of free-school-meal pupils . when we announce our new accountability measures , i will be in a position to address how we 'll measure the government's performance , and national performance , going forward . but , given the fact that we 're moving away from level 2 plus , then we will need a different set of performance indicators . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the next questions are on looked-after children and adopted children , and i 've got questions from michelle then mark . michelle brown am: thank you . good morning— mark reckless am: i was to come in first , i think . i was about to ask about icf consulting . lynne neagle am: go on then . mark reckless am: i think my questions are first , but , michelle , please do correct me if you were planning to come in before . the pdg for looked-after children does n't quite seem to have the degree of visibility as the pdg for the free-school-meals . i think we had the mori/wiserd survey—only 15 per cent of primary schools and 23 per cent of secondary schools were aware that pdg was targeted at looked-after children . i just wonder—can you clarify on the record here what is the role of schools with pdg for looked-after children as compared to the regional consortia in this field ? kirsty williams am: okay . i think it is absolutely fair to say that most awareness around pdg is around free school meals . there is less awareness around the availability of pdg to support looked-after children . i think that 's probably in the nature of the cohort , so , there are more children subject to free school meals than are subject to being looked after . so , i think that 's part of the explanation . a decision was taken in 2015 to regionalise pdg for looked-after children . my understanding was that the thinking behind that at the time was around a greater strategic deployment of that resource and to try and drive a greater impact than how it was being used previously . so , looked-after pdg is held at a regional level . we have looked-after children pdg co-ordinators—they 're in their second year this year—to look at a regional deployment of that resource . and that resource can be done in a variety of ways , through individual allocation to a school to support an individual child , through to capacity building for the whole system . so , for instance , if i give you an example , in carmarthenshire , there 's been a big emphasis on attachment disorder and training teachers with regard to the impact of attachment disorder . carmarthenshire happens to be one of those local authorities that does quite well in terms of attainment for looked-after children . but , clearly , i have—not concerns . 'concerns ' is n't the right word . but i have asked officials to give greater scrutiny to how that resource has been used in the last year . steve , on my behalf , wrote out to the system , setting out our expectations , but also advising them of the fact we will be asking very detailed questions of accountability for that money . so , what has that money been used on and how can you account for the effect ? but , steve , maybe you can give some greater detail . steve davies: i think the challenge that— . one of the rationales for shifting—not that all the money stays in the region , but having a regional strategic support—was that , historically , the money was going directly with that child to the school . given the quite often rapid turnover of children in schools—the very nature of looked-after children is they do sometimes move through foster parents—historically , what happened , the money lands in the school , because , at that time in the year , when it 's measured , the school gets the money and can spend it on some additional support for staff , but quite often that child moves on to another school and the money does n't transfer . some schools will go through quite a number of years without having a looked-after child and will not think strategically , 'how do i need to support them ? ' so , that was the rationale of the shift . in terms of the implementation of the regional allocation , as of this financial year finishing , we are going into local authorities and regions to evaluate where they 've located the resource , what the impact of that resource has been , so that is reinforced and shared more widely . kirsty williams am: and then , to reassure , it 's not just internally that we 're looking at this . we have a contract with an external agency to do an evaluation— mark reckless am: that 's icf consulting . kirsty williams am: yes . yes , so that was done in the autumn of last year , because , as i said , we had concerns about whether this was really having the effect that was intended . so , my expectation is that we will be in a position to receive that report later on this spring , and of course it would be my intention that that report would be made public for people to have a look at what— mark reckless am: that was commissioned last autumn— kirsty williams am: yes , in november 2017 . mark reckless am: november 2017 . kirsty williams am: so , i 'm hoping to have that published before the summer recess . i 'm very reluctant to say months ; i 've learnt not to say months , because they move . lynne neagle am: i 'm going to go to michelle now , mark , because— mark reckless am: sure . i will come back in if i have anything further to ask here after michelle . lynne neagle am: —both of you asked for these questions , and that 's what the pre-meeting is for . mark reckless am: michelle , i defer to you . lynne neagle am: michelle . michelle brown am: okay , thank you . would you be open , cabinet secretary , to the idea of adjusting the eligibility of the pdg so that pupils who have been looked after or adopted at any point within a previous given period of time would attract the pdg , rather than only if they 're looked-after on a one-off date ? kirsty williams am: as i said earlier , in questions from , i think it was , llyr , who was talking about concepts of concepts of ever 6 , we are constantly looking at how we can get that balance between focus and flexibility for this resource . llyr opened with the question of , 'how can you absolutely ensure that these children are getting the money ? ' , but then there 's also a tension about how can you create some flexibility around the school 's usage of the grant . so , we will look at that . i think there is the issue of where a school would know of a child that was looked after . issues around adoption are slightly more sensitive , because we could n't force a family to tell a school that their child was an adopted child . so , a family may be very open and very keen to explain that to a school , but we ca n't necessarily track as closely children who have been adopted , especially if that adoption happens before the child goes to school . we ca n't be in a position of forcing families to disclose this information if they do n't want to , but we certainly can , as i say , look to strengthen our monitoring arrangements around pdg support for looked-after children and the impact that that 's having . i just think we need to be a bit mindful of people 's privacy in some instances . if they do n't want to divulge that , it would n't be my job to tell a family , 'you have to let us know if your child is adopted . ' lynne neagle am: michelle . michelle brown am: fair enough ; thank you for that answer . the eas consortium 's approach to using the looked-after and adopted pdg is to use it as part of a broader approach targeted at vulnerable learners in general . what are your views on that approach ? kirsty williams am: i 'm a great believer in if we can get it right for our most vulnerable learners , we 'll be getting it right for all of our learners . i gave the example earlier , for instance , of attachment disorder , and , chair , you will know that i have had conversations . one of the emerging themes for me , as i go around visiting schools , is the impact and the growing awareness and the growing numbers of children who have attachment disorder , and how schools are best able to respond to that in their children . so , for instance , as i said about carmarthenshire , there 's been a huge effort to address that in the school sector in carmarthenshire . now , that has a disproportionate benefit for those children , because you 're more likely to see attachment disorder in children who are care experienced , because of the nature of the lives that those children have lived , but that does n't necessarily mean that attachment disorder is exclusively found in those children that are looked after . it can be found in other families as well . so , that vulnerable learner , regardless of their background , will benefit from having teachers who are better trained , understanding and have intervention strategies in place to be able to address that need . steve davies: i think it 's also important to add that this is not one region 's approach ; this is across four regions , so the others— . for example , erw have run a significant programme looking at the impact of adverse childhood experiences on pupils , which has enabled teachers to detect some of the impact of some of those and then considers some of the work they need to do within the school but also with other agencies . so , it is something that's applied consistently across the four regions . kirsty williams am: i was in pil primary school recently where they use their pdg , both fsm pdg , and no doubt an element of pdg for looked-after , for nurture groups . so , for those children who really , really find it very difficult to be in the main classroom , they can have that nurture group experience to address issues around emotional behaviour , feelings , and it gets them in a position where they are able then to join the main classroom because issues around behaviour have been addressed and they 're in a better position to learn . so , again , this is an example of how vulnerable learners in the wider sense can benefit . lynne neagle am: okay . mark , did you have anything you wanted to ask ? mark reckless am: yes . can i follow up on tracking adopted children ? i entirely understand that you ca n't force parents to disclose that their child is adopted . however , my understanding was that , in england , there was a dataset with social services that was shared with schools in a way that i 'm not clear is happening in wales and how , if at all , that links to the pupil level annual school census data . perhaps sort of linked to that , is n't there an argument for making the parents of adopted children in the schools , potentially , with adopted children more aware that adopted children who were previously looked after have this potential grant , and would they not be more willing to disclose this , at least confidentially to the school and government , if they knew there was this upside of doing so ? kirsty williams am: we 're actively looking at whether we should try and find a way of collecting this data , with the caveats that i just gave earlier . we ca n't force parents to divulge information that is a matter for them , nor would i want to . but there is an active discussion going on at the moment about whether we could create a dataset where people divulge this information and we can then track the children through . you 're absolutely right . one of the ways in which we can often encourage take-up , for instance , of free school meals , especially in those communities where there is a sense of reluctance to apply for support—even though people are entitled to it , there 's a reluctance to do it ; sometimes we see this in rural areas— . actually , appealing to the parents by saying , 'actually , this will mean more money for your child 's school budget' is a much more compelling reason why people will apply for it then saying , 'actually , it 's going to help you ' , because they do n't want to be seen being dependent , they do n't want to be seen being helped . but , if you say to them , 'actually , do you know that this means more money for your child 's school ? ' , they go , 'oh , all right then , i 'll fill in the forms now . ' so , you 're right , i think there is something that we could do to make parents understand , in the round , that this has an impact . but we are actively looking at and discussing whether we could create a dataset around adopted children and how we can do that in line with data protection and data sharing . one of the things i am concerned about in the performance of looked-after children generally is how we can , across government , work more closely together . we ca n't see the educational attainment of looked-after children just being a job of education . it 's got to be a job of social services and the health service as well . there 's got to be a joined-up approach to doing that . now , officials were at the ministerial advisory group that 's chaired by david melding on prospects for looked-after children . they were there at the group last week . david tells me that the paper was very positively received by the group . i will be sitting down with david melding to talk through what more we can do on the education side . i think there 's really an appetite between me and the minister for children to get a closer working relationship on this . we ca n't expect schools to do it on their own and alone . and there are things that we can do out there in local authorities to help improve outcomes . it 's not just about the pdg ; it is about , when social services are thinking about a placement , where does the discussion about where children are going to go to school—when does that take place ? do we talk about the placement , move a child and then think , 'oh my goodness me , what are we going to do about the schooling ? ' if you can imagine , the school could have been working really , really hard with a pupil to get them in a good place , to get them being able to access the curriculum , and then social services decide that the placement is being changed . so , we potentially lose all of that . so , a greater involvement in education and better linked-up working in local authorities will help us with this . it ca n't be just the job of the pdg . if we think we can crack this with just pdg , then we 're being delusional . it has to be a cross-government approach at a national level , and at a local government level as well , to get this right . sometimes , data protection—how can we break down some of these barriers between , you know , the school does n't need to , schools should n't see , the entire social services report ? well , maybe the school does need to see some of that background information if they 're going to have an impact for that child . so , there 's more work to do , but it can not be just the job of education on its own if we 're going to make a difference , nor can it just be the job of the pdg to make a difference for those children . lynne neagle am: thank you . julie 's got some more questions on the impact on adopted and looked-after children . julie morgan am: yes , before i go on to those , i just wanted to support , really , what mark was saying about adopted children and how important it is , i think , that the adoptive parents feel able to speak to the school and to give information . because certainly any evidence we 've had from adoptive parents , and generally knowing about what adoptive parents do feel , is that they often feel that there 's a degree of a lack of sensitivity in the school about the issues of adoption . i would certainly support some move towards ensuring that the atmosphere was open in a way that would encourage them to realise that it would be a help for the children if there was an awareness in the school . so , i just wanted to really reinforce that . kirsty williams am: yes , and that would chime with what i hear from many adoptive parents . i 'm just trying to be sensitive by saying we ca n't force people to divulge this information if they do n't want to . julie morgan am: no , but they need to be given the opportunity . kirsty williams am: yes , you 're right . we need to make sure that those parents feel that they can discuss this with school leaders and classroom teachers and explore how best those individual children can be supported , and how best we can support parents . because , again—and i 've said this a lot—after the quality of teaching , the second biggest impact on a child 's educational outcome will be parental engagement . so , being able to create an environment where adoptive parents feel very confident and able to talk about their children 's education is absolutely crucial if we 're going to get that parental engagement that we need for all of our children . julie morgan am: yes . thank you . going on to looked-after children , you say that the latest data on looked-after children 's attainment is extremely disappointing . can you expand on that and what effect the pdg has had in this result , or not had ? kirsty williams am: well , there 's no getting away from it : the way in which we currently measure outcomes for looked-after children , the results are not good enough . it 's a source of huge concern to me that we need to do better for those children . that 's why officials are engaging with the group that david melding is chairing , to make sure that education is integral to that group and it 's not lost sight of . there 's a discussion to be had about the cohort , whether it 's right and correct to compare looked-after children to the main cohort , or whether these statistics are useful in any way . sometimes as well—this is not to make an excuse because , as i 've said in my paper , it 's extremely disappointing , but sometimes it can be really difficult . because the cohort sometimes can be very , very small , it can swing the statistics to look perhaps more dramatic . julie morgan am: i think , generally , when you look at how looked-after children do— kirsty williams am: it 's not good . julie morgan am: —in a much wider evaluation , they 're not doing well , are they ? kirsty williams am: they 're not doing well . so , that 's why we 've got the review , the independent review , into the impact of the pdg in this area . this is why steve is doing the work that he is doing with the regional consortia because , clearly , at the moment , we are not doing what we need to do for that particular cohort of children . i would not make any bones about that at all . steve davies: i think we will not move away from the fact that these children need good gcses to gain employment , so we 'll continue to measure that . i think we need to look at more nuanced evaluations of the data at a lower level . so , for example , there were significant improvements in terms of pdg pupils who got three and four good gcses but did n't get past the threshold . that 's not to cover anything that is not working in terms of improvement , but we will look at the full range and still hold on to the fact that we have to look at a measure that relates to the likelihood of these children going on to further education and training . julie morgan am: and then just one more question about the exclusion rates amongst looked-after children . they are , i understand , over six times more likely to be given a fixed-term exclusion . so , is there any way of trying to address this ? is the pdg used for anything to do with exclusions ? kirsty williams am: we can look at exclusions . we also have to read across about how the whole system works , not just the pdg element of the system . so , we know , for example , that 66 per cent of looked-after learners have some additional learning need , so we ca n't just look at it in terms of this particular source of funding ; we have to look at it at a wider level of support . so , given that the majority of those children will have an aln , how can we make sure that our new aln legislation and our new aln regime meets the needs of these children ? so , i think what we 're looking at , again , is to say that it ca n't be just the job of the pdg . that 's there as an additional level of support , but actually , we 've got to get our aln right . unless we get our aln right , lots and lots of these children are not going to get the support that they need day in , day out via that system . we do know that sometimes , if we 're not addressing aln , then we 're not addressing behaviour issues that then potentially lead to an expulsion or potentially lead to non-attendance . so , we 've got to look at it in the round and recognise the connections between the sometimes quite complex needs that these children have within the school setting , that are not just as a result of the fact that they 're looked after ; they have other needs as well . steve davies: and investment in well-being— kirsty williams am: absolutely . steve is reminding me that that 's why well-being is part of the national mission—to address issues around supporting children with their well-being , which is a way of keeping them in school . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 're going to move on to schools challenge cymru now . llyr . llyr gruffydd am: thank you , chair . i was just wondering what your assessment is as to why some schools made progress and others did n't . kirsty williams am: i think we have to recognise that the 39 schools that were part of the programme were in very , very different places . so , i think one of the reasons why some schools did well was because their needs were not so complex , not so deep-seated and a certain level of intervention was enough to get them moving forward . some schools had very , very different needs . i think , talking to those involved in the programme , as always , we had some support advisers , challenge advisers working with those schools as part of the programme who were really , really excellent and really good , and were the right fit for the school and really drove the school onwards . we had other people employed in the programme who , perhaps , were less effective at driving change within those individual schools . so , what we have is a mixed bag of performance , again reflecting the very different challenges that those schools were facing , which led them to be chosen for the programme in the first place . llyr gruffydd am: yes , okay— steve davies: sorry . one of the other key additional factors was the extent to which there had been recent appointment of a new headteacher to that school just before the programme had started , because— kirsty williams am: leadership is all . llyr gruffydd am: and that was seen as a positive . steve davies: a positive , yes . i think one of the challenges is that sometimes the time it takes to make changes in leadership can be protracted and can be a barrier , sometimes , to the speed with which you can move . but , for a significant minority of the schools , there had been recent new appointments of headteachers , which was seen to be contributing , when you looked at the evaluation , to the speed with which they were able to engage . llyr gruffydd am: the reason i was asking was i wanted to understand what lessons the government is taking from that three-year investment , really , and how , maybe , you 're applying some of those lessons to your wider school improvement programme . i know professor mel ainscow identified six interconnected lessons , although i also note that the cabinet secretary did n't actually meet him for about six or seven months after coming into post . so , i 'm just wondering , can you give us confidence that , actually , you are serious about taking lessons from schools challenge cymru and applying them to the wider school improvement agenda ? kirsty williams am: well , absolutely , llyr . i do n't think anything should be read into when i met the individual concerned , because officials were meeting the individual concerned . individual challenge advisers were meeting with the regions , there was crossover work with the fsm agenda as well , and we are absolutely determined that best practice and those interventions that drove school improvement are embedded in the new support that we have via the regional consortia . it 's no coincidence that some of the best people that were employed by schools challenge cymru are now in the employment of our regional consortia . so , those people that were really good and really made a difference do n't work for the schools challenge cymru scheme any more , they work for our regional school improvement services . so , we 're absolutely determined . the things that we have learned , as always , are around leadership . it is absolutely key and crucial to have strong , capable school leadership as a driver for change within the system . we 're looking at systems and processes , so , actually , has a school got in place comprehensive systems of tracking and processes within the school ? we 're looking at the teacher quality—how can we ensure that we have got consistent strategies in place to drive up pedagogy and teacher quality in the classroom ? collaborative activity—again , absolutely key . a school can not see itself in isolation , and one of the key themes of the national mission is a self-improving system , so , collaborative working where schools are looking outside of each other , learning from best practice from other schools . so , there are lots of things that we 've drawn from the evaluation that you will see as key themes running through the national mission , and , as i said , it 's no coincidence that our really good people that were working in schools challenge cymru are now working for the regional consortia , being able to use that expertise not just for a very small proportion of our schools—but that expertise is available to all our schools . llyr gruffydd am: although estyn has told us , of course , that you ca n't expect the consortia to really carry on with that level of intervention and the same kind of intensity as was provided previously , so i 'm just wondering— kirsty williams am: in what way ? llyr gruffydd am: well , we were told by estyn in evidence that they did n't necessarily think that we could expect the consortia to provide the same type of tailored support , and certainly the level of intensity with the improvement boards and everything— kirsty williams am: well , the improvement boards are carrying on , so the improvement boards still exist , and i would—not that i want to argue with estyn— llyr gruffydd am: well , feel free ; this is your opportunity to do so if you— kirsty williams am: what i would say is that those improvement boards are staying on , and our schools categorisation system is used to identify the level of support . now , if you 're a red school , that gives you the entitlement to 25 days of support . that is more than you would have got under the schools challenge cymru programme , which would 've been 20 days . so , actually , moving to this system allows us to really focus in on those schools that need that intensive level of support . and what 's important for me , llyr , in this , okay , is that those schools are not necessarily just the schools that were in the programme . our system now of challenge , advice and support allows us to target resources across all of our schools and across all of our sectors , because you 'll be aware that schools challenge was only available to secondary schools , not available to primary schools . what our system now allows us to do , via the schools categorisation , is to identify schools , wherever they are in wales and whatever sector they 're in , to have that intensive level of support that they need to make improvements . llyr gruffydd am: so , you 're confident that that level of momentum is continuing through the consortia that was previously enjoyed by those particular schools , and you 're also confident that there is minimal risk that they 'll slip back to where they were , potentially , or at least part of the way back . kirsty williams am: well , actually , there are some really good examples of some of the schools challenge cymru schools making that sustained improvement now that the programme has come to an end . you only have to look at tredegar , where we have seen continual improvement and moving up through the categorisation system . that school is now a green school , so they 've been able to sustain their progress at the end of the programme . if we look at armando in eastern high school , again—gosh , my goodness me , we had lots of debates in a previous chamber about the future of eastern . there was one person that said that eastern had to be closed and that the only way forward for that particular school was for it to be shut down , but what we have seen is investment via schools challenge cymru , but ongoing , continual support from the regional consortium , and that school has come out of special measures . i pay absolute tribute to the staff of that school and that community that have done such a good job . so , i 'm absolutely convinced that where we 've got good leadership and good support , some of those schools are making continued , sustained progress even after the end of the programme . the challenge for me is for those schools that schools challenge cymru did n't work for , and we have n't seen that progress—how we can use our school improvement system now to continue to work with those schools to give them the level of support that they need to make a difference . so that 's what my focus is on now : a whole-system approach , rather than choosing 39 schools to get that level of support , when we recognise that there are schools everywhere , potentially , that need intervention , support and challenge , and in the primary sector as well . llyr gruffydd am: okay . so , you would n't agree with a number of—well , the near-unanimous evidence that we 've had from academics , some of whom are government advisers from consortia et cetera , that this kind of programme such as schools challenge cymru would probably need about five years to really have the impact that it was intended to have . kirsty williams am: what i would say is that , from my understanding , from the outset , it was a time-limited programme . the schools were aware of that . there were no surprises that it was supposed to be a time-limited programme . evidence from across the uk showed that school challenge programmes have differed in time . so , for instance , manchester 's challenge was a three-year programme . so , there 's no consensus about how many years you need to run a programme for . the previous minister was quite clear about the time-limited nature of the programme . that 's not to say it was the wrong decision , because what 's important , and an ongoing legacy of the programme , was the investment in regional school improvement capacity , because at the time our school improvement services and the regions were young , in their infancy . the ability of individual local authorities to make a difference , with so many local authorities in an estyn categorisation , was limited , so one of the ongoing legacies of the programme is that significant investment of over £10 million in the capacity of the regions to be able to continue this support and the school improvement work . llyr gruffydd am: so , how disappointed were you that the money for schools challenge cymru went back into reserves and did n't stay in your envelope , as you described it earlier ? i presume you made a pitch for it . did you make a case for that money to stay within your department ? kirsty williams am: llyr , we are constantly having discussions with the minister for finance around support for the education budget . the minister for finance was quite clear that it was a time-limited programme . we were able to secure investment from the finance minister to be able to secure the programme and run it and phase it out to make sure there was transition support , so as we moved from the schools challenge programme into the regional consortia , there were resources to do that . llyr gruffydd am: did you feel there was a case to be made to add to the consortia 's resources and be able to continue that level of support that schools had previously had ? kirsty williams am: well , we did make resources available to the regional consortia to do that . as i say , from the outset , the previous minister was very clear it was a time-limited programme . certainly the schools that i talk to— . and i want to be absolutely clear : i have visited many , many schools challenge cymru schools . i have used that opportunity to talk to them about—heolddu being one of them , hefin , which we went to visit , and willows , for instance . i 'm going to one this afternoon—i 'm going to st illtyd 's this afternoon , and i always take— . i 've been to caergybi in anglesey . i always take the opportunity to speak to those teachers about their experience of the programme and to understand and assure myself that they are getting ongoing support that they see as an appropriate level for them . i think i 've done 19 of the schools . lynne neagle am: hefin on this . hefin david am: with regard to it being a time-limited programme , the previous minister was clear that it was a time-limited programme , but it was n't quite as time-limited as you 've decided to be . is that fair to say ? kirsty williams am: no , it was supposed to be a three-year programme at the most . so , there 's no differential between when i decided it was time-limited and the expectations— hefin david am: so the time limit was the same that the previous minister put on it . kirsty williams am: yes . no change . llyr gruffydd am: but mel ainscow did tell us that there was a fade out in that third year—not that people were giving up , do n't get me wrong , but clearly there was n't that commitment coming from government because the decision had been made , and people felt that it was just fizzling out a little bit , and that impacted on the momentum . kirsty williams am: i would n't characterise it as that . i think there certainly was a transition phase when we knew that the programme was moving and schools were moving into a different level of support , but i certainly would n't describe it as a fading out—not at all . as i said , we were aware that the programme was transitioning and we were determined to get that right for those individual schools , and to learn the lessons and , crucially , to be able to apply those lessons right across the board . steve davies: i can see where the perception would come if a programme director like mel was managing the programme right to the end of the three years exactly the same , and it falls off—not a cliff , but it falls off , then the readiness for schools and the readiness in the system to hand over—so part of the shift of focus was that working as a government with the programme in those schools to working with the programme , those schools and the region . so , i think , inevitably , one party might see it as a decrease in terms of emphasis on their work , but it was necessary for the transition . llyr gruffydd am: but does that cast a bit of a shadow over the transition , then—that one key player within that process felt as such , or are you confident that that was managed well and effectively ? kirsty williams am: i think it was managed well , and we were very clear to recognise success where success has been achieved , but not to gloss over where the programme had not made an impact , because that would n't be good for anybody . there was a formal event to close the programme , which gave everybody an opportunity to get together , to be formally thanked , and for , as i said , congratulations to be given to those people who had really made a difference and , crucially , key staff transferred over into the regional consortia . so , for those individuals , they were able to continue their work , but just be able to apply that work on a regional basis rather than just in an individual school . so , i do n't see that there was any fading out , but there was a transition into a new system , and many of those key personnel transitioned into the system with us . lynne neagle am: have you got any figures for the numbers of staff who went from the programme into the consortia ? kirsty williams am: not off the top of my head , but i can let you know . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got darren first , then mark . kirsty williams am: and can i just say , i met with some of them ? i met with a selection of those people who had been involved in the programme to get their feedback on what they felt had gone right , and what they did n't feel had gone right in the programme . so , i took the time not just to meet the figurehead of the programme , but actually to meet the people who were doing the work in the individual schools . sorry . darren millar am: yes , i just wanted to ask you , you mentioned the figurehead there , i assume by 'the figurehead ' you mean professor ainscow . and you 've mentioned as well that you said you wanted to learn lessons from schools challenge cymru , but he told us that nobody had been in touch with him since march of last year in order to have any sort of follow-up engagement , or to have a dialogue about his perspective on what worked , what did n't work , why there were failures in some areas and why there were successes in others . why have n't you sought that level of engagement with the person who was responsible for running the programme ? kirsty williams am: i 've had that conversation with mr ainscow . we had the evaluation of the programme . we 've spoken to the people who were actually involved in running the programme on a daily basis in individual schools . we 've spoken to the regional consortia . we 've spoken to local education authorities . we 've spoken to a wide variety of people to get their insight into the lessons learned , what was valuable and what was not valuable . so , a wide variety of people have been involved in those conversations . darren millar am: but you 've hardly engaged with mr ainscow—with professor ainscow himself . steve davies: i would actually say that i have had meetings— darren millar am: since march of last year . steve davies: yes , since march of last year . i have n't got the exact dates for you . i 've had discussions with mel ainscow , and my line manager at the time , owen evans , also had meetings and discussions . darren millar am: so , when he told us , 'since last march , i literally have had no contact at all with anybody from welsh government ' , he was telling porky pies , was he ? steve davies: that 's not my recollection . i 'll go back and check for you . lynne neagle am: if you could check and let us know , that would be good . mark . kirsty williams am: yes , well , i just talked about the celebration event to formally mark the end of the programme . my understanding was that it was july of last year , so people were engaged in that . and this idea that somebody has been ignored or frozen out is not how i see or how i regard that situation . lynne neagle am: mark . mark reckless am: i have to say , with professor ainscow my impression was he took great , great pride in the work that he 'd done with schools challenge cymru , and i think he really enjoyed the engagement , the work and the positive relations with the welsh government . but i think there was just a degree of disappointment , perhaps , that at least he did n't feel that he 'd been interrogated as much as he might have been about the lessons learned from the programme , and how perhaps to entrench those as well as possible with the regional consortia . i just wonder , cabinet secretary , if you could invite the professor in , perhaps to have a further debrief with you and take account of some of his thoughts and suggestions for what might help in this area . kirsty williams am: well , mark , as i said , i just do n't think it should be right to characterise this as a failure to engage with a single individual . mark reckless am: i 'm not characterising it that way , cabinet secretary . kirsty williams am: as i said , i met with him , steve has met with him , owen evans has met with him , my special policy adviser has met with him and had discussions . so , there has been an ongoing dialogue . but , mark , i hope that i have demonstrated since i took on this job that i am willing to work with a wide variety of people and to tap into their expertise if it can help me to deliver on the national mission . and if the advice to me is that we have n't sufficiently learnt the lessons , then i 'll gladly have another conversation . what i 'm saying to you—and i 'm absolutely confident—is that we have learnt the lessons , we are taking that work and the good practice forward , and we have done that with conversations with a wide variety of people who had a view on this , from individual schools that were involved in the programme , individual people who were working in those schools , local education authorities , some of which have been very scathing about the programme , i should say , regional consortia— . so , the lessons , i am confident , have been learnt . mark reckless am: i 'm glad to hear that , cabinet secretary , but i still say that , listening to professor ainscow 's evidence , there was a perception , at least from him individually , that the programme should not be seen to be a failure , but a desire that the lessons should be learnt and a feeling or exception , at least on his part , that there was more that he still had to contribute to the process . and just to take one particular example , i think he referred to the schools challenge cymru advisers being very successful in bringing in people who might not otherwise have contributed to this , and the regional consortia have had greater challenges in recruiting people , perhaps in some areas , of the same high standard of some particular individuals , but also from a wide range of different areas that the schools challenge cymru do , and that there could be more to learn in that area as to how to support real excellence and a greater diversity of recruitment for those people . is that something you could perhaps draw on his thoughts further about ? because i think he does feel that he has more to say to welsh government to help in this area . kirsty williams am: firstly , can i say that i have never described the programme as a failure ? i would understand , as someone who has put so much personal investment into the brand of schools challenges , that he would not want anybody to characterise that particular approach to school improvement as a failure . and i want to be absolutely clear that i have never described the programme as a failure , and i want to reassure mr ainscow of that . as i 've said , gosh , my goodness me , if you saw my e-mail inbox and you saw the letters that come in , people are never shy in coming forward to give me advice on what i need to do , what i need to do next , what i 'm doing right , what i 'm doing wrong , and , you know , our doors are always open to listen to people who have interesting things to say about how we can deliver our educational mission . so , people are n't slow in coming forward , i can assure you , with advice . lynne neagle am: julie . julie morgan am: just very quickly . i 'm sure the minister is aware that cardiff put extra funds of its own in to continue schools challenge cymru advisers . so , obviously , they appreciated the value of the scheme , but it does query whether it should have gone on longer . kirsty williams am: julie , i think , to be fair , there are some people who think the scheme was absolutely fantastic . i 've had feedback from people who did n't think the scheme was helpful at all—in fact , they felt it was a hindrance . i 'm very much of the view that the scheme worked really well for some schools in some areas and had less impact in some areas . there is a mixed picture . what 's important to me is that we understand what it was that led those schools to make those big changes , how we can—like mark talked about , the expertise—how we can keep that expertise in the system , and how we can apply the lessons to all schools . lynne neagle am: the next questions , and the final questions , are from john . so , we 're going to need succinct questions and succinct answers . john griffiths am: some questions on regional consortia , cabinet secretary , and , first of all , the role that you believe they should play and how schools use pdg . kirsty williams am: well , it 's an absolute— . it 's one of the things that i have been very clear to the regional consortia that i expect their challenge and support advisers to be asking schools about . so , one of the conversations that they need to have when they are in schools is exploring , with that school , how they are using their pdg , and how they 're demonstrating an impact for those resources . so , it 's a fundamental role for the challenge and support advisers in the regional consortia in their school improvement work . it 's crucial . john griffiths am: that sort of brings to mind some of the research that 's been done on the role of the challenge advisers , cabinet secretary , which suggested that they 're not actually challenging schools in that way , and that there 's very little evidence of schools changing their decisions on the use of pdg as a result of any challenge from those challenge advisers . so , how would you respond to those findings ? kirsty williams am: well , as i said , in my scrutiny of the role and success of our regional consortia , i specifically asked them about free-school-meal performance and the use of pdg within their particular region . i think there is increasing evidence to suggest that good use is being made of that resource , and i think that is being fed back into us . estyn tell us that it 's one of the areas of school expenditure that is closely linked to research and an evidence base . but , clearly , there is more to do , and that 's why we have appointed the new regional advisers for pdg going forward , because we think there can be improvements in how this agenda can be supported at a regional level . john griffiths am: okay . so , you would recognise the findings from that research . kirsty williams am: yes . there 's always more that we can do , and we are strengthening that role by the appointment of the new regional pdg advisers , so that individual school challenge advisers know what they should be looking for , know what they should be doing , and there is a regional approach to good practice . john griffiths am: okay . could you tell the committee , cabinet secretary , how effective you believe the relationship was between the schools challenge cymru programme and the regional consortia 's school improvement functions , and to what extent it varied by region ? kirsty williams am: i think it 's fair to say that , on occasion , i have received feedback that there was a conflict between what was going on at an individual school under the school improvement programme and whether , then , they welcomed support from the regional consortia as part of that . so , in some cases , if we 're being absolutely honest , there could sometimes be tensions between the two , but in most cases , the relationship was very , very positive and there was continuous feedback between the work going on in the schools under the programme and the regional consortia challenge advisers . but i 'm going to be blunt and honest with people—in some cases , it has been reported to me—it 's only anecdotal evidence ; i have n't got hard and fast evidence—that there sometimes was a conflict : 'we 're a school challenge school so we do n't need to participate or listen to any advice that 's coming from the regional consortia . ' or , a local education authority said to me , 'we felt that we could n't get involved in that school anymore because it was part of a different programme . ' those were isolated incidents , and , as i said , it 's only anecdotal feedback . in most cases , the relationship was a very positive one . steve davies: just very quickly , i think that , across the board , it was more complex in the beginning , getting— [ inaudible. ] . but when the programme itself recognised that they needed to work with the regions , and the regions needed to work with them—and i think mel ainscow in his evidence referred to this—it strengthened after some early challenges . i think mel ainscow was working in a number of regions—i ca n't remember which ones—so he 's established relationships— [ interruption . ] sorry ? kirsty williams am: central south . steve davies: central south . he has already been working in that , so i think it possibly had a stronger springboard in terms of the early working . kirsty williams am: because he already had relationships that he had already developed in that particular region . as always , with many of these things , it 's about individuals and relationships . john griffiths am: okay . finally from me , cabinet secretary : in 2015-16 , estyn reported on regional consortia not sufficiently focusing on particular groups of pupils and tracking their outcomes—for example , vulnerable pupils . i just wonder what you are able to tell us in terms of to what extent there has been necessary progress since 2015-16 . kirsty williams am: okay . well , i think it 's important to recognise that all four consortia underwent monitoring visits in the autumn of last year , of 2017 , which were n't reflected in the estyn annual report for 2015-16. estyn , through these 2017 inspections , have said that three out of the four regional consortia are making strong progress in their particular work , and we are continuing , as welsh government , to work with the other regional consortia to address the findings of the estyn report . john griffiths am: and that would include these particular issues . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . the committee probably has n't had an opportunity to see , but , only this morning , estyn has released a report on more able and talented , and has positive things to say in the field of more able and talented , which was being asked about earlier by members—you know , evidence of improved working and support in that particular arena . but , again , we need to ensure a consistency across all the regions , and that the findings of estyn 's most recent reports into regional performance are followed through . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . as we 've got a couple of minutes left , if i can just jump back to the issue of practical uses of the pdg—because it 's the only thing we have n't really covered and it would be good to get on the record—can i ask to what extent you 'd like to see the pdg used to track the progress of eligible pupils ? and the committee 's heard that there are several different tracking systems and tools used by schools . to what extent is that an issue to do with what the welsh government is promoting ? or is it down to consortia or individual schools ? and do you think there needs to be a more centralised push on how the tracking is undertaken ? kirsty williams am: firstly , can i say it 's absolutely crucial that we track performance , absolutely crucial ? that 's the bedrock . we do n't dictate to individual schools the nature of the system that they should employ in their school . there are a number of different programmes that allow schools to do this , but we are absolutely clear , and best practice and evidence shows us , that individual pupil tracking is key and crucial . and , as i said in the beginning , where we were n't tracking pupils at all , initial investment in pdg was used to establish these systems within schools . again , one of the outcomes from the schools challenge review , and one of the lessons learnt , was , again , the importance of individual tracking of pupils throughout their school career . but we do n't dictate a single system . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . kirsty williams am: but the principle is a really important one . lynne neagle am: okay , and you do n't think there 's more scope to look at what the best system is that can be recommended to schools . kirsty williams am: that 's not something we 're actively looking at . i am actively looking at developing a welsh toolkit around good practice , evidence base and research . at the moment we use the sutton trust toolkit , which is fine and excellent , but we are having active discussions about whether we 're in a position , now , to look at developing a suite of a welsh toolkit to support this agenda , and that 's under active consideration . lynne neagle am: okay . well , we 've reached the end of our session . can i thank the cabinet secretary and the officials for attending and for answering such a wide range of questions ? as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you again for coming . kirsty williams am: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: thank you . okay . item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the minister for children and social care on families first funding . paper to note 2 is a letter from the cabinet secretary for education , updating us on the supply teacher issue . paper to note 3—another letter from the cabinet secretary for education , providing further information following our meeting on 15 february . paper to note 4 is a letter from the wjec on availability of textbooks . paper to note 5—a letter from qualifications wales , also on availability of textbooks . and paper to note 6 is a letter from the cabinet secretary for education to the children 's commissioner for wales , following up on the dialogue that they 've been having about our inquiry . are members happy to note those ? thank you . item 4 , then , is for me to propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

over the period of the last inspection report , they have seen improvements in attendance , but still need to look at again how pdg can support this particular agenda . there are some excellent examples of how schools use the money to address this , some schools send the staff out and create walking buses , so that they walk the children into the school . despite these good measures , there is still a gap between the attendance of free-school-meal pupils and non-free-school-meal pupils . it gets more challenging the older the children get .

summarize the discussion about why children on free school meals were less resilient in the exam system last year . </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to this morning 's children , young people and education committee . we 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members who are present if they wish to declare any interests ? okay , thank you . item 2 this morning is our final evidence session for our inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams am , cabinet secretary for education ; steve davies , director of the education directorate ; and ruth conway , deputy director , support for learners division . welcome to all of you , and thank you for your attendance and also for the paper that you 've provided in advance . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions , and the first questions are from llyr gruffydd . llyr gruffydd am: bore da . i just want to start by asking some questions around the targeting of the pupil development grant because , clearly , we 've had a lot of evidence around this apparent blurring of eligibility to an extent . i 'm just wondering how comfortable you are that the money is being targeted appropriately because , clearly , it 's being targeted more widely than just those eligible for free school meals , from some of the evidence we 've had , but also that it seems to be predominantly focused on low-attaining frees—pupils who are eligible for free school meals . kirsty williams am: thank you , llyr . i think it 's important to be absolutely clear that when it comes to individual interventions , those individual interventions should only be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals . but in some cases , schools may use their pdg funding to provide a universal intervention , but we would want to—in challenge advisers ' discussions in schools—we 'd want to have evidence that that universal intervention would have a disproportionate effect on the outcomes for children on free school meals . so , for instance , if i give you an example in your own region , llyr : at brynteg county primary school in wrexham , if you look at that primary school in wrexham , their results for free-school-meal children at the end of their primary school period in school are equivalent to their non-free-school-meal counterparts . so , there is no differentiation in those results . one of the things that they 've used their pdg for is to really focus on the concept of growth mindset in school . so , that 's a universal thing that they 've trained all the teachers in , but what we know is that that has a disproportionate effect on those children who are on free school meals . so , if you 're familiar with the concept of a growth mindset , it 's about really challenging learners to think that , ' i can do things . if sometimes i fail , i pick myself up , i 'm more resilient . ' now , that has been , as i said , trained to all the teachers in the school—it 's an ethos for the whole school—but we have seen that the impact on the free-school-meal children has been even greater , and now they 're at the same level . so , that 's the important distinction . individual intervention per child has to be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals , but sometimes a school will employ a whole-school approach to train their staff , for instance , and that , then , has to demonstrate it has a disproportionate effect on free school meals . so , growth mindset ; it may be attachment disorder training for staff , for instance , where we know it 's of benefit to everybody , but will have particular benefits for that cohort of students . with regard to more able and talented , you know , llyr , that this is an area of concern for me , generally , within the welsh education system ; that we 've not been particularly good at identifying , supporting and driving attainment for those children . i 'm absolutely clear that pdg needs to be used for those children who are eligible to drive potential , whatever the potential of that child is , including more able and talented . and again , i 'll give you an example that has been seen as good practice in pembrokeshire : a window on the world bus , again paid for by schools . i do n't know if you 're aware of it . llyr gruffydd am: we 've heard about that . kirsty williams am: oh , you 've heard about it ; well , it 's a really good example the window on the world . and , again , that 's very much targeted at raising aspirations and giving children who are more able and talented , who are eligible for pdg , those experiences , and to really push them . so , yes , i 'm absolutely clear that pdg should n't just be seen to be getting individuals to the average . for those children who are more able and talented , it should be used to support them— llyr gruffydd am: and we all share those aspirations , i 'm sure , and you pointed to examples of good practice , but of course , it 's not universal , is it , so what i 'm asking is : do you think that the guidance is sufficient as it is ? do you think that there 's a great enough awareness of how the pdg should be used at the coalface ? and also , are you confident that consortia and others have the measures in place to be able to demonstrate that it is being used properly ? kirsty williams am: i think , if we look at what estyn has said about pdg , it does actually recognise that the pdg is being used to push more able and talented children , but as always with the system , llyr , it 's whether we can be sure that that is strategic and that it 's happening across all of our schools . so , you're— llyr gruffydd am: but not just in relation to more able and talented , i 'm referring to the eligibility and the targeting . kirsty williams am: oh , the eligibility . you 'll be aware that , on the advice of sir alasdair , we have employed and appointed new pdg regional advisers , and i think their role is going to be absolutely crucial in spreading that good practice across the region , whether that 's use of pdg for more able and talented , or ensuring that pdg is used in the appropriate way . so , that 's there to provide strategic overall advice . and obviously , we have been very clear with regional challenge advisers , in the relationship and the conversations they 're having with individual schools , that they 're really challenging their schools about the use of pdg , not just in terms of targeting , but the programmes , what the money is being spent on , whether there is an evidence base for that and whether we are clear on impact . so , i think the new regional advisers are going to be crucial in enabling us to ensure more consistent practice across the regions . llyr gruffydd am: so , are you content that eligibility for free school meals is the best measure , really , of identifying which pupils to target ? kirsty williams am: llyr , in the absence of anything better . i 'll be the first person to say that maybe it 's not as absolutely focused , but in the absence of anything different to identify a proxy for need , i think it 's probably the best that we 've got at present . and we will continue to have discussions with local government about whether there are different ways . we have to be mindful . some of the policy levers in this area are out of my hands , so if we look at the roll-out of universal credit , for instance , we 've got officials working very hard at the moment to try and understand what universal credit is going to mean and where we are going to be able to identify relative need , going forward . we have n't had any additional resource as a result of this , but we 're very mindful that , potentially , this has an impact , going forward . and , officials are working all of the time , i must say , in conjunction with the department in england , to understand their thinking in this area so that we are in a position to make some decisions about what a notional eligibility for free school meals will look like going forward , but before i make any decisions , i want to assure everybody that there will be a full public consultation on that . llyr gruffydd am: okay . finally for now , on this issue of once a year , in january , if you 're eligible for free school meals , then you 're in that group for that year . we 've had some quite strong evidence about how difficult that makes longer term planning for a number of schools and we 've also been pointed in the direction of what 's happened in england with the ever 6 , and i 'm just wondering whether you 're giving any thought to maybe changing that a little bit . kirsty williams am: well , we 're certainly giving thought to flexibility . in conversations with alasdair , who is our independent adviser on this agenda , and individual schools , we 're actively giving thought to greater flexibility and maybe longer term projections , so that schools know , for a number of years ahead , what their allocation will be . there are advantages to that system , because you could give that flexibility , you could give that long-term approach , but then , how do you make that responsive if a school suddenly has more children ? we do know that , actually , the number of free-school-meal pupils is dropping . but there can be changes , you know , regional working in areas of north wales in tourism , or maybe in other areas at christmas time , parents are able to get a period of work . so , how can we create a more flexible system ? we 're actively looking at that at the moment . i would n't use it as an ever 6 concept , but as an 'ever 2 ' concept . we have looked at ever 6 , and i 'm going to be absolutely blunt with you : to introduce an ever 6 concept for wales would mean in the region of identifying an additional £40 million . i 'm going to be absolutely straight and blunt with you : we 're not in a position at the moment to be able to identify an additional £40 million to introduce an ever 6. but issues around flexibility , certainly , are actively under consideration . in fact , we 'll be having a discussion later on today about decisions , going forward , for the next two years . llyr gruffydd am: thank you . lynne neagle am: darren on this . darren millar am: it 's just a very brief point in response to the £40 million price ticket that you just put on that . that 's , of course , assuming that you maintain the current level of pdg , yes ? so , if you reduced the level of pdg slightly , but made it available to more individuals , if you like , via allocating it in a different way , then that £40 million price ticket would n't be there , would it ? kirsty williams am: i was asked a question about had i ever considered an ever 6. we have looked at that , we 've priced that up . i have to make decisions in the envelope of resources that are available to me . we could , indeed , change the way in which we allocate pdg money , but we have to do it within the envelope that is available to me , over £90 million . that 's a significant level of investment , but , of course , as always , darren , we could cut the amount per pupil , but that might have quite challenging swings in allocations . what we have done—because what i am clear on is that there was evidence to suggest that in the secondary sector , a great deal of pdg was being focused on years 10 and 11 , especially year 11 , in catch-up provision , and you 'll be aware , because we 've said this in evidence to the committee in the papers , we 've set a challenge to secondary schools to say , 'actually , the majority of your pdg allocation has to be used in key stage 3 . ' now , we have to balance the needs , the moral hazard of turning round to children in years 10 and 11 and saying , 'we're not going to provide catch-up opportunities for you , ' because , clearly , those children need that support . but the evidence and the advice that we 're receiving is : actually , strong focus on early years , primary and key stage 3 , if we get that right , should negate the need for spending money on catch-up at years 10 and 11. that 's why we , in our advice to local authorities and schools , say that we want to see evidence that they 're spending this money earlier on in a child 's career , rather than just a scramble at year 11 to say , 'right , we 've got to get you through your exams . ' darren millar am: okay , but have you actively considered , then , reducing the level you have ? kirsty williams am: we've— ruth conway: sorry—i was just going to say that one of the things is looking at the scope of the definition , and i think it 's about being more flexible with the definition , rather than reducing the amount per head . darren millar am: okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you . if we can go on , then , to talk about some of the practical uses of the pdg , you write in your written paper that 'the majority of schools are making well thought out and appropriate decisions ' on how to use it . but estyn reported that only two thirds of primary and secondary schools make effective use of the pdg . given that we 've had it now for six years , would you not have expected there to be a higher level of schools actually making good use of that funding ? kirsty williams am: well , to flip it on its head , the vast majority of schools , as identified by estyn , are using this money to good effect . so , that 's the way i like to see it—that the vast majority of schools are doing well . what estyn has also indicated is the intrinsic link here to leadership within individual schools , and as you 'll be aware , leadership , improving capacity in leadership and developing leadership talent in the welsh education system is a key priority for me in our national mission . of course , that 's being developed in a different work stream . i think what 's fair to say is that the use of pdg is evolving over time . i think we are seeing , increasingly , more and more schools understanding how best to deploy that money for best effect for students . so , if we 're honest , when pdg first started , i think , in some schools it was spent on investing in tracking of children , because they 'd never thought about tracking these children , they did n't have systems in place to look at the performance of these children , and to have a system in place . so we 've moved now from spending money on the infrastructure around support for fsm children into actual inputs in terms of teaching and learning . we 're also seeing from estyn that , actually , in terms of money following the evidence of what we know works , estyn says that pdg is probably the best example of schools following tried and tested and evidence-based interventions to deploy the money . but clearly we want all of this money to be deployed as well as it can be , and again we come back to the decision i 've made to appoint regional pdg advisers so that we can get that better consistency of approach . we are , in the discussions that i have with the regional consortia about how they challenge individual schools on usage , looking for very clear evidence of schools using the sutton trust toolkit , and we could have a discussion about whether that 's the right thing , because that 's on my mind too . but we want to see schools demonstrating their evidence base , and if they 're not , if a school is n't doing that , okay , so demonstrate to us why you 've made those decisions and , crucially , what are you doing as the school to judge whether that decision is actually making a difference for your individual pupils . so , if you 're moving away from tried and tested interventions , what we know works , if you 're doing something different with your money , okay , you need to justify that and you need to explain how you 're going to demonstrate impact . but i think what we 're seeing is increasing good practice in this area as the pdg develops and as our understanding of our school-to-school working in our self-improving school system also develops . i think we 're seeing better usage of the money year on year . lynne neagle am: thank you . llyr on this . llyr gruffydd am: you mentioned some schools will be moving from the tried-and-tested interventions , really , and i 'm just wondering to what extent that evolution of use of pdg is being driven by cuts to core funding . kirsty williams am: no , i do n't think it 's being driven by cuts to core funding . i think there has been— . one of the biggest impacts of pdg has not been—well , i suppose it is the money in itself , because the money has concentrated the minds , has n't it ? so , one of the most important things that pdg has done is highlight the importance of this agenda within schools , and really raise this up in the thinking of leadership and senior management teams in our schools , and has driven a focus on scrutiny and accountability in the systems that are working with our schools . i think the changing use of pdg reflects the journeys that schools have been on , some of them from a very low base where this was not a priority for them , to better understanding , and as research and as intelligence grows over time in this area , both in wales and outside of wales , schools are increasingly learning to use that evidence to tailor approaches in their schools . llyr gruffydd am: so you would n't accept at all that some of this money 's being used to paper over some funding cracks from elsewhere . because the unions and some others have told us that , whether we like it or not , there is some of that going on . kirsty williams am: as i said , llyr , we 're very clear about the usage that this money can be spent on in terms of individuals or universal application within schools , and that forms an important part of the checks and balances that we have in our system . can we continue to improve , and ensure that more and more of our schools are employing best practice ? yes , we can , and as i 've said , we 've taken steps to put in place the infrastructure to support that . lynne neagle am: thank you . mark 's questions are next . mark reckless am: cabinet secretary , how would you assess the impact of pdg on attendance and hopefully subsequent engagement with education from children who have free school meals ? kirsty williams am: i think what 's important to note is that , as estyn have themselves said , over the period of the last inspection report , we have seen improvements in attendance , but i do think we need to , again , look at how pdg can support this particular agenda . and as always in the welsh education system , there are some excellent examples of how schools use the money to address this . ysgol y preseli in pembrokeshire is a very good example of how they 've deployed their money . forgive me ; i ca n't off the top of my head remember the name of the primary school i visited , again in north wales , where the school has proactively used this money , and they actually send teaching assistants out of school in the morning before the start of the school day , and they actually have a walking bus . they call at homes for children , and they walk the children to the breakfast club . so , they 're proactively going out into the community and making sure that those children are in the classrooms , because the teacher said , 'we recognised we had a problem with attendance . we tried a variety of means of improving that , but in the end we have taken this quite bold step—we actually send the staff out and they create that walking bus , and they walk the children into school ' . they say that they know that , for some of those children , because of the difficult circumstances they and their families are living in , they probably would n't be in school if it was n't for that proactive approach . so , we 're looking again at what more we can do to support this particular agenda in terms of improving attendance , because although , again , there are examples of good practice , there is still a gap between the attendance of free-school-meal pupils and non-free-school-meal pupils . and , of course , we can have the best curriculum in the world with really high-quality teaching , but unless the children are in the classes then we 're not going to make the difference for them . whilst that differential exists , then it 's going to be hard to close the attainment gap for those children . mark reckless am: i was actually quite shocked just reading in advance of this meeting that the proportion attending 95 per cent or more , who have pretty full attendance , was only 35 per cent for free-school-meal children at level 4 , compared to 60 per cent for non-free-school-meal pupils . it still is an extraordinary difference . my colleague here showed me , i think , last week , a graph showing the link between attendance and attainment , in particular . when people were absent , a lot of the— . as i 'm sure you 're aware , there 's a huge connection . what more can pdg do to deal with it ? in the example you give i can see how a school with an awful lot of free-school-meal children could do that , but a lot of the free-school-meal children are actually in schools that do n't have that high a proportion of free school meals , where it would be much more challenging to bring in that type of initiative . kirsty williams am: yes , indeed , and i think it gets more challenging the older the children get . i think it 's more difficult to find interventions that are successful higher up , so key stage 4. so , you can do a walking bus with little ones , ca n't you , but i do n't suppose your average 15 or 16-year-old is going to take very kindly to that . so , you do need a different approach to that . but again , we see in ysgol y preseli the employment of staff to directly work with families of older children to reinforce the messages around , as you quite rightly say , the linkage between attendance and attainment , and really work with individual families to understand the barriers to attendance : what 's going on in the family that is preventing that child from going to school , and what more can the school do to address those situations . but you 're absolutely right ; there is more that we need to do to address this particular agenda of attainment . i do n't know if there 's anything extra you wanted to add , steve . steve davies: there is also another very good example—and i take what you say about where there are small numbers—but in our secondary schools where there are significant numbers , they 're investing pdg in resources like a school nurse and a school counsellor , not just to work with the children but link to other agencies on whom the children and the families are dependent to support them in terms of working with schools . so , it 's something , particularly in our most challenging areas , where it can not just be delivered within the school . so , good use of that resource is being made to employ people to support them in those wider areas . mark reckless am: thank you . to what extent is pdg also used to seek to reduce the higher rates of exclusion for children entitled to free school meals ? kirsty williams am: so , if we looked at permanent exclusions , there is n't a differential , but if we look at temporary exclusions , there we see there is a disproportionate number of children on free school meals that are subject to those exclusions . again , i think what schools employing best practice understand is that you need a multi-agency approach to supporting that particular child . some of those exclusions can be as a result of the need to address other issues going on in a child 's life . so , this is where we come back to the committee 's work , for instance , on mental health and support for children , support for behaviour in school . so , again , it 's a multi-agency approach that i think we need , and , in our good schools , our really , really good schools , there 's a recognition of that need to have a whole team around a child to support that child in education . with eotas , we made some changes last year regarding pdg for eotas . so , for those children who do find themselves in education other than at school , we are providing additional support that previously was not available . mark reckless am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . we 're going to move on now to talk about the impact of pdg on attainment . hefin david has got some questions . hefin david am: it appears that the attainment gap at 2017 has actually widened , in spite of pdg levels . is that correct ? kirsty williams am: yes . so , if you look at it—with the usual caveats about whether you can make direct comparisons on level 2 plus between the exams the year before and the exams that we had last summer—on the face of it , the gap has increased . i think what 's important to recognise , hefin , is a direction of travel . i 'm sure we all want to , because i want to , have a discussion about why children on free school meals were less resilient in the exam system last year . but , if we look at the period that we have been employing pdg , over that period , we have seen a narrowing of the gap . i think what 's quite stark , if we think about it— . so , if we look at where we started from : in 2009 , one in five children on free school meals got level 2 plus—one in five—by 2016 , we had got that down to one in three . obviously , there 's still a way to go , but , sir alasdair , who knows about these things , says that that is a significant improvement . last year , we got some challenges . we need to understand why that happened , but i do think it's— hefin david am: why , do you think ? kirsty williams am: why , do i think ? what i do think is there is no one answer . there is no one answer to this . i think we could look at and we can have discussions around the move from btec to science gcses . i think we have supplied figures to the committee about the significant change in the number of children on free school meals who were n't doing a single science gcse and are now doing science gcses . we can look at the unintended consequences of literature . again , we 've supplied figures . where children have done language and literature , whether that be through the medium of english or through the medium of welsh , there is more resilience . so , it 's that exposure to literacy in all its forms that i think could potentially make a difference . so , i think there 's no one answer to why free-school-meal children were not so resilient last year . we continue to have discussions with qualifications wales to get a better understanding of this . at my next ministerial policy board , in may , we 'll be doing a deep dive into this particular subject . hefin david am: so , to what extent would exam boards be responsible for lack of grade stability ? kirsty williams am: it could be one of the contributory factors . what i think is important is that there is no one , single reason why there seems to be less resilience in this cohort of children . hefin david am: will you be speaking to the exam boards about this and raising concerns ? kirsty williams am: i have written to qualifications wales , we 've had discussions about it , but i 've asked them to formally submit evidence ahead of my policy board for may , where , as i said , we will be doing a formal , deep-dive discussion across the department about these issues . but , again , hefin , what we 've got to be clear on is—while we look at overall factors , you know , our overall national statistic—we did see some schools last year whose fsm performance was better than it had been the year before . so , what was it in those schools that enabled those children to do really well , whereas , in other schools , the performance was different ? even in individual cities , you can see a huge variety of performance . so , take cardiff and swansea , our two biggest cities . you 've got schools in those cities with comparative levels of free school meals . so , you could have really high-performing schools with a very small number of the cohort on free school meals . the difference between those performances in a single city—so , that 's the same local education authority and the same regional consortium—you can see a massive change . there 's one school i can talk to : their free-school-meal performance is 88 per cent . a similar school in the same city with the same proportion of children on free school meals , their performance is down in the 20 per cents . so , i think what 's important is that we ca n't draw broad-brush conclusions . for me , the challenge is to go into individual schools and understand what was happening in that particular school that ensured that their children did really well . we 've got one school in swansea , their fsm performance at gcse level 2 outperforms non-fsm pupils . hefin david am: but we still need to rely on the trends from a distance . if we take your argument that 2017 was an unusual year and the trends up to 2016 were positive , in a few years ' time , when we will be looking back in two years ' time , how are we going to measure this progress , say , in 2019 ? what are we likely to see and what methods are you going to use to measure progress that way ? kirsty williams am: well , you 'll be aware that we are moving away from level 2 plus as a performance measure anyway because of the— hefin david am: so , what performance measures will you use ? kirsty williams am: so , for the lack of sophistication around the level 2 plus , and for the unintended behaviours that that particular performance measure has driven within our schools . i 'll be making a statement shortly to the assembly around a new performance measure for schools . we were , at our most recent secondary heads conference , working with schools to develop that . what 's important to me is that we have a more sophisticated model that looks at school performance for all children . what level 2 plus does is narrow , very much , the focus of schools on an individual part of the cohort , usually the c/d borderline , which is why then we have problems with the number of students getting a b grade or above . we have marked success in our schools by saying to schools that a c is good enough . well , if a child gets a c but came to you in year 7 and they were destined to get an e , yes , indeed , a c is a success , because you 've moved that child on ; but , if that child came to you destined to get an a * and gets a c , then we have n't done a good job by that particular child . so , we need a performance measure that is much more sophisticated , looks at each individual child , tracks that progress , and measures the value added by that school in performance . hefin david am: last question : therefore , should we have confidence in the data up to 2016 ? is there a lack of confidence in that data ? kirsty williams am: no , it 's not a lack of confidence in the data . the data is the data . what i 'm saying is , using that as a performance measure and an accountability measure within our school system may have been right for the time . i think it is now right to have a different way of measuring success in schools . i think that particular set of performance measures has driven certain behaviours—not because ministers wanted that to happen , but as an unintended consequence . i think we can work together with our school system , learning the lessons of international best practice , to develop much more sophisticated accountability and performance measures for individual schools , and , i should say , for the government . so , you will be aware of my intention to issue the first national report card on government performance later on this year . so , this is not about trying to avoid scrutiny . it 's about trying to develop a more sophisticated way , which is in line with our national mission , where every child 's education is valued , and where the impact of the school can be tracked more effectively . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . can i just ask , cabinet secretary , are you still holding on to your target of 37 per cent of free-school-meal pupils achieving the level 2 threshold ? kirsty williams am: well , we 're moving away from the level 2 threshold . so , that 's the first thing to say . so , we will want to develop a new suite , in line with our new accountability measures , as we go forward . so , we will be absolutely continuing to track and evaluate the performance of free-school-meal pupils . when we announce our new accountability measures , i will be in a position to address how we 'll measure the government's performance , and national performance , going forward . but , given the fact that we 're moving away from level 2 plus , then we will need a different set of performance indicators . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the next questions are on looked-after children and adopted children , and i 've got questions from michelle then mark . michelle brown am: thank you . good morning— mark reckless am: i was to come in first , i think . i was about to ask about icf consulting . lynne neagle am: go on then . mark reckless am: i think my questions are first , but , michelle , please do correct me if you were planning to come in before . the pdg for looked-after children does n't quite seem to have the degree of visibility as the pdg for the free-school-meals . i think we had the mori/wiserd survey—only 15 per cent of primary schools and 23 per cent of secondary schools were aware that pdg was targeted at looked-after children . i just wonder—can you clarify on the record here what is the role of schools with pdg for looked-after children as compared to the regional consortia in this field ? kirsty williams am: okay . i think it is absolutely fair to say that most awareness around pdg is around free school meals . there is less awareness around the availability of pdg to support looked-after children . i think that 's probably in the nature of the cohort , so , there are more children subject to free school meals than are subject to being looked after . so , i think that 's part of the explanation . a decision was taken in 2015 to regionalise pdg for looked-after children . my understanding was that the thinking behind that at the time was around a greater strategic deployment of that resource and to try and drive a greater impact than how it was being used previously . so , looked-after pdg is held at a regional level . we have looked-after children pdg co-ordinators—they 're in their second year this year—to look at a regional deployment of that resource . and that resource can be done in a variety of ways , through individual allocation to a school to support an individual child , through to capacity building for the whole system . so , for instance , if i give you an example , in carmarthenshire , there 's been a big emphasis on attachment disorder and training teachers with regard to the impact of attachment disorder . carmarthenshire happens to be one of those local authorities that does quite well in terms of attainment for looked-after children . but , clearly , i have—not concerns . 'concerns ' is n't the right word . but i have asked officials to give greater scrutiny to how that resource has been used in the last year . steve , on my behalf , wrote out to the system , setting out our expectations , but also advising them of the fact we will be asking very detailed questions of accountability for that money . so , what has that money been used on and how can you account for the effect ? but , steve , maybe you can give some greater detail . steve davies: i think the challenge that— . one of the rationales for shifting—not that all the money stays in the region , but having a regional strategic support—was that , historically , the money was going directly with that child to the school . given the quite often rapid turnover of children in schools—the very nature of looked-after children is they do sometimes move through foster parents—historically , what happened , the money lands in the school , because , at that time in the year , when it 's measured , the school gets the money and can spend it on some additional support for staff , but quite often that child moves on to another school and the money does n't transfer . some schools will go through quite a number of years without having a looked-after child and will not think strategically , 'how do i need to support them ? ' so , that was the rationale of the shift . in terms of the implementation of the regional allocation , as of this financial year finishing , we are going into local authorities and regions to evaluate where they 've located the resource , what the impact of that resource has been , so that is reinforced and shared more widely . kirsty williams am: and then , to reassure , it 's not just internally that we 're looking at this . we have a contract with an external agency to do an evaluation— mark reckless am: that 's icf consulting . kirsty williams am: yes . yes , so that was done in the autumn of last year , because , as i said , we had concerns about whether this was really having the effect that was intended . so , my expectation is that we will be in a position to receive that report later on this spring , and of course it would be my intention that that report would be made public for people to have a look at what— mark reckless am: that was commissioned last autumn— kirsty williams am: yes , in november 2017 . mark reckless am: november 2017 . kirsty williams am: so , i 'm hoping to have that published before the summer recess . i 'm very reluctant to say months ; i 've learnt not to say months , because they move . lynne neagle am: i 'm going to go to michelle now , mark , because— mark reckless am: sure . i will come back in if i have anything further to ask here after michelle . lynne neagle am: —both of you asked for these questions , and that 's what the pre-meeting is for . mark reckless am: michelle , i defer to you . lynne neagle am: michelle . michelle brown am: okay , thank you . would you be open , cabinet secretary , to the idea of adjusting the eligibility of the pdg so that pupils who have been looked after or adopted at any point within a previous given period of time would attract the pdg , rather than only if they 're looked-after on a one-off date ? kirsty williams am: as i said earlier , in questions from , i think it was , llyr , who was talking about concepts of concepts of ever 6 , we are constantly looking at how we can get that balance between focus and flexibility for this resource . llyr opened with the question of , 'how can you absolutely ensure that these children are getting the money ? ' , but then there 's also a tension about how can you create some flexibility around the school 's usage of the grant . so , we will look at that . i think there is the issue of where a school would know of a child that was looked after . issues around adoption are slightly more sensitive , because we could n't force a family to tell a school that their child was an adopted child . so , a family may be very open and very keen to explain that to a school , but we ca n't necessarily track as closely children who have been adopted , especially if that adoption happens before the child goes to school . we ca n't be in a position of forcing families to disclose this information if they do n't want to , but we certainly can , as i say , look to strengthen our monitoring arrangements around pdg support for looked-after children and the impact that that 's having . i just think we need to be a bit mindful of people 's privacy in some instances . if they do n't want to divulge that , it would n't be my job to tell a family , 'you have to let us know if your child is adopted . ' lynne neagle am: michelle . michelle brown am: fair enough ; thank you for that answer . the eas consortium 's approach to using the looked-after and adopted pdg is to use it as part of a broader approach targeted at vulnerable learners in general . what are your views on that approach ? kirsty williams am: i 'm a great believer in if we can get it right for our most vulnerable learners , we 'll be getting it right for all of our learners . i gave the example earlier , for instance , of attachment disorder , and , chair , you will know that i have had conversations . one of the emerging themes for me , as i go around visiting schools , is the impact and the growing awareness and the growing numbers of children who have attachment disorder , and how schools are best able to respond to that in their children . so , for instance , as i said about carmarthenshire , there 's been a huge effort to address that in the school sector in carmarthenshire . now , that has a disproportionate benefit for those children , because you 're more likely to see attachment disorder in children who are care experienced , because of the nature of the lives that those children have lived , but that does n't necessarily mean that attachment disorder is exclusively found in those children that are looked after . it can be found in other families as well . so , that vulnerable learner , regardless of their background , will benefit from having teachers who are better trained , understanding and have intervention strategies in place to be able to address that need . steve davies: i think it 's also important to add that this is not one region 's approach ; this is across four regions , so the others— . for example , erw have run a significant programme looking at the impact of adverse childhood experiences on pupils , which has enabled teachers to detect some of the impact of some of those and then considers some of the work they need to do within the school but also with other agencies . so , it is something that's applied consistently across the four regions . kirsty williams am: i was in pil primary school recently where they use their pdg , both fsm pdg , and no doubt an element of pdg for looked-after , for nurture groups . so , for those children who really , really find it very difficult to be in the main classroom , they can have that nurture group experience to address issues around emotional behaviour , feelings , and it gets them in a position where they are able then to join the main classroom because issues around behaviour have been addressed and they 're in a better position to learn . so , again , this is an example of how vulnerable learners in the wider sense can benefit . lynne neagle am: okay . mark , did you have anything you wanted to ask ? mark reckless am: yes . can i follow up on tracking adopted children ? i entirely understand that you ca n't force parents to disclose that their child is adopted . however , my understanding was that , in england , there was a dataset with social services that was shared with schools in a way that i 'm not clear is happening in wales and how , if at all , that links to the pupil level annual school census data . perhaps sort of linked to that , is n't there an argument for making the parents of adopted children in the schools , potentially , with adopted children more aware that adopted children who were previously looked after have this potential grant , and would they not be more willing to disclose this , at least confidentially to the school and government , if they knew there was this upside of doing so ? kirsty williams am: we 're actively looking at whether we should try and find a way of collecting this data , with the caveats that i just gave earlier . we ca n't force parents to divulge information that is a matter for them , nor would i want to . but there is an active discussion going on at the moment about whether we could create a dataset where people divulge this information and we can then track the children through . you 're absolutely right . one of the ways in which we can often encourage take-up , for instance , of free school meals , especially in those communities where there is a sense of reluctance to apply for support—even though people are entitled to it , there 's a reluctance to do it ; sometimes we see this in rural areas— . actually , appealing to the parents by saying , 'actually , this will mean more money for your child 's school budget' is a much more compelling reason why people will apply for it then saying , 'actually , it 's going to help you ' , because they do n't want to be seen being dependent , they do n't want to be seen being helped . but , if you say to them , 'actually , do you know that this means more money for your child 's school ? ' , they go , 'oh , all right then , i 'll fill in the forms now . ' so , you 're right , i think there is something that we could do to make parents understand , in the round , that this has an impact . but we are actively looking at and discussing whether we could create a dataset around adopted children and how we can do that in line with data protection and data sharing . one of the things i am concerned about in the performance of looked-after children generally is how we can , across government , work more closely together . we ca n't see the educational attainment of looked-after children just being a job of education . it 's got to be a job of social services and the health service as well . there 's got to be a joined-up approach to doing that . now , officials were at the ministerial advisory group that 's chaired by david melding on prospects for looked-after children . they were there at the group last week . david tells me that the paper was very positively received by the group . i will be sitting down with david melding to talk through what more we can do on the education side . i think there 's really an appetite between me and the minister for children to get a closer working relationship on this . we ca n't expect schools to do it on their own and alone . and there are things that we can do out there in local authorities to help improve outcomes . it 's not just about the pdg ; it is about , when social services are thinking about a placement , where does the discussion about where children are going to go to school—when does that take place ? do we talk about the placement , move a child and then think , 'oh my goodness me , what are we going to do about the schooling ? ' if you can imagine , the school could have been working really , really hard with a pupil to get them in a good place , to get them being able to access the curriculum , and then social services decide that the placement is being changed . so , we potentially lose all of that . so , a greater involvement in education and better linked-up working in local authorities will help us with this . it ca n't be just the job of the pdg . if we think we can crack this with just pdg , then we 're being delusional . it has to be a cross-government approach at a national level , and at a local government level as well , to get this right . sometimes , data protection—how can we break down some of these barriers between , you know , the school does n't need to , schools should n't see , the entire social services report ? well , maybe the school does need to see some of that background information if they 're going to have an impact for that child . so , there 's more work to do , but it can not be just the job of education on its own if we 're going to make a difference , nor can it just be the job of the pdg to make a difference for those children . lynne neagle am: thank you . julie 's got some more questions on the impact on adopted and looked-after children . julie morgan am: yes , before i go on to those , i just wanted to support , really , what mark was saying about adopted children and how important it is , i think , that the adoptive parents feel able to speak to the school and to give information . because certainly any evidence we 've had from adoptive parents , and generally knowing about what adoptive parents do feel , is that they often feel that there 's a degree of a lack of sensitivity in the school about the issues of adoption . i would certainly support some move towards ensuring that the atmosphere was open in a way that would encourage them to realise that it would be a help for the children if there was an awareness in the school . so , i just wanted to really reinforce that . kirsty williams am: yes , and that would chime with what i hear from many adoptive parents . i 'm just trying to be sensitive by saying we ca n't force people to divulge this information if they do n't want to . julie morgan am: no , but they need to be given the opportunity . kirsty williams am: yes , you 're right . we need to make sure that those parents feel that they can discuss this with school leaders and classroom teachers and explore how best those individual children can be supported , and how best we can support parents . because , again—and i 've said this a lot—after the quality of teaching , the second biggest impact on a child 's educational outcome will be parental engagement . so , being able to create an environment where adoptive parents feel very confident and able to talk about their children 's education is absolutely crucial if we 're going to get that parental engagement that we need for all of our children . julie morgan am: yes . thank you . going on to looked-after children , you say that the latest data on looked-after children 's attainment is extremely disappointing . can you expand on that and what effect the pdg has had in this result , or not had ? kirsty williams am: well , there 's no getting away from it : the way in which we currently measure outcomes for looked-after children , the results are not good enough . it 's a source of huge concern to me that we need to do better for those children . that 's why officials are engaging with the group that david melding is chairing , to make sure that education is integral to that group and it 's not lost sight of . there 's a discussion to be had about the cohort , whether it 's right and correct to compare looked-after children to the main cohort , or whether these statistics are useful in any way . sometimes as well—this is not to make an excuse because , as i 've said in my paper , it 's extremely disappointing , but sometimes it can be really difficult . because the cohort sometimes can be very , very small , it can swing the statistics to look perhaps more dramatic . julie morgan am: i think , generally , when you look at how looked-after children do— kirsty williams am: it 's not good . julie morgan am: —in a much wider evaluation , they 're not doing well , are they ? kirsty williams am: they 're not doing well . so , that 's why we 've got the review , the independent review , into the impact of the pdg in this area . this is why steve is doing the work that he is doing with the regional consortia because , clearly , at the moment , we are not doing what we need to do for that particular cohort of children . i would not make any bones about that at all . steve davies: i think we will not move away from the fact that these children need good gcses to gain employment , so we 'll continue to measure that . i think we need to look at more nuanced evaluations of the data at a lower level . so , for example , there were significant improvements in terms of pdg pupils who got three and four good gcses but did n't get past the threshold . that 's not to cover anything that is not working in terms of improvement , but we will look at the full range and still hold on to the fact that we have to look at a measure that relates to the likelihood of these children going on to further education and training . julie morgan am: and then just one more question about the exclusion rates amongst looked-after children . they are , i understand , over six times more likely to be given a fixed-term exclusion . so , is there any way of trying to address this ? is the pdg used for anything to do with exclusions ? kirsty williams am: we can look at exclusions . we also have to read across about how the whole system works , not just the pdg element of the system . so , we know , for example , that 66 per cent of looked-after learners have some additional learning need , so we ca n't just look at it in terms of this particular source of funding ; we have to look at it at a wider level of support . so , given that the majority of those children will have an aln , how can we make sure that our new aln legislation and our new aln regime meets the needs of these children ? so , i think what we 're looking at , again , is to say that it ca n't be just the job of the pdg . that 's there as an additional level of support , but actually , we 've got to get our aln right . unless we get our aln right , lots and lots of these children are not going to get the support that they need day in , day out via that system . we do know that sometimes , if we 're not addressing aln , then we 're not addressing behaviour issues that then potentially lead to an expulsion or potentially lead to non-attendance . so , we 've got to look at it in the round and recognise the connections between the sometimes quite complex needs that these children have within the school setting , that are not just as a result of the fact that they 're looked after ; they have other needs as well . steve davies: and investment in well-being— kirsty williams am: absolutely . steve is reminding me that that 's why well-being is part of the national mission—to address issues around supporting children with their well-being , which is a way of keeping them in school . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 're going to move on to schools challenge cymru now . llyr . llyr gruffydd am: thank you , chair . i was just wondering what your assessment is as to why some schools made progress and others did n't . kirsty williams am: i think we have to recognise that the 39 schools that were part of the programme were in very , very different places . so , i think one of the reasons why some schools did well was because their needs were not so complex , not so deep-seated and a certain level of intervention was enough to get them moving forward . some schools had very , very different needs . i think , talking to those involved in the programme , as always , we had some support advisers , challenge advisers working with those schools as part of the programme who were really , really excellent and really good , and were the right fit for the school and really drove the school onwards . we had other people employed in the programme who , perhaps , were less effective at driving change within those individual schools . so , what we have is a mixed bag of performance , again reflecting the very different challenges that those schools were facing , which led them to be chosen for the programme in the first place . llyr gruffydd am: yes , okay— steve davies: sorry . one of the other key additional factors was the extent to which there had been recent appointment of a new headteacher to that school just before the programme had started , because— kirsty williams am: leadership is all . llyr gruffydd am: and that was seen as a positive . steve davies: a positive , yes . i think one of the challenges is that sometimes the time it takes to make changes in leadership can be protracted and can be a barrier , sometimes , to the speed with which you can move . but , for a significant minority of the schools , there had been recent new appointments of headteachers , which was seen to be contributing , when you looked at the evaluation , to the speed with which they were able to engage . llyr gruffydd am: the reason i was asking was i wanted to understand what lessons the government is taking from that three-year investment , really , and how , maybe , you 're applying some of those lessons to your wider school improvement programme . i know professor mel ainscow identified six interconnected lessons , although i also note that the cabinet secretary did n't actually meet him for about six or seven months after coming into post . so , i 'm just wondering , can you give us confidence that , actually , you are serious about taking lessons from schools challenge cymru and applying them to the wider school improvement agenda ? kirsty williams am: well , absolutely , llyr . i do n't think anything should be read into when i met the individual concerned , because officials were meeting the individual concerned . individual challenge advisers were meeting with the regions , there was crossover work with the fsm agenda as well , and we are absolutely determined that best practice and those interventions that drove school improvement are embedded in the new support that we have via the regional consortia . it 's no coincidence that some of the best people that were employed by schools challenge cymru are now in the employment of our regional consortia . so , those people that were really good and really made a difference do n't work for the schools challenge cymru scheme any more , they work for our regional school improvement services . so , we 're absolutely determined . the things that we have learned , as always , are around leadership . it is absolutely key and crucial to have strong , capable school leadership as a driver for change within the system . we 're looking at systems and processes , so , actually , has a school got in place comprehensive systems of tracking and processes within the school ? we 're looking at the teacher quality—how can we ensure that we have got consistent strategies in place to drive up pedagogy and teacher quality in the classroom ? collaborative activity—again , absolutely key . a school can not see itself in isolation , and one of the key themes of the national mission is a self-improving system , so , collaborative working where schools are looking outside of each other , learning from best practice from other schools . so , there are lots of things that we 've drawn from the evaluation that you will see as key themes running through the national mission , and , as i said , it 's no coincidence that our really good people that were working in schools challenge cymru are now working for the regional consortia , being able to use that expertise not just for a very small proportion of our schools—but that expertise is available to all our schools . llyr gruffydd am: although estyn has told us , of course , that you ca n't expect the consortia to really carry on with that level of intervention and the same kind of intensity as was provided previously , so i 'm just wondering— kirsty williams am: in what way ? llyr gruffydd am: well , we were told by estyn in evidence that they did n't necessarily think that we could expect the consortia to provide the same type of tailored support , and certainly the level of intensity with the improvement boards and everything— kirsty williams am: well , the improvement boards are carrying on , so the improvement boards still exist , and i would—not that i want to argue with estyn— llyr gruffydd am: well , feel free ; this is your opportunity to do so if you— kirsty williams am: what i would say is that those improvement boards are staying on , and our schools categorisation system is used to identify the level of support . now , if you 're a red school , that gives you the entitlement to 25 days of support . that is more than you would have got under the schools challenge cymru programme , which would 've been 20 days . so , actually , moving to this system allows us to really focus in on those schools that need that intensive level of support . and what 's important for me , llyr , in this , okay , is that those schools are not necessarily just the schools that were in the programme . our system now of challenge , advice and support allows us to target resources across all of our schools and across all of our sectors , because you 'll be aware that schools challenge was only available to secondary schools , not available to primary schools . what our system now allows us to do , via the schools categorisation , is to identify schools , wherever they are in wales and whatever sector they 're in , to have that intensive level of support that they need to make improvements . llyr gruffydd am: so , you 're confident that that level of momentum is continuing through the consortia that was previously enjoyed by those particular schools , and you 're also confident that there is minimal risk that they 'll slip back to where they were , potentially , or at least part of the way back . kirsty williams am: well , actually , there are some really good examples of some of the schools challenge cymru schools making that sustained improvement now that the programme has come to an end . you only have to look at tredegar , where we have seen continual improvement and moving up through the categorisation system . that school is now a green school , so they 've been able to sustain their progress at the end of the programme . if we look at armando in eastern high school , again—gosh , my goodness me , we had lots of debates in a previous chamber about the future of eastern . there was one person that said that eastern had to be closed and that the only way forward for that particular school was for it to be shut down , but what we have seen is investment via schools challenge cymru , but ongoing , continual support from the regional consortium , and that school has come out of special measures . i pay absolute tribute to the staff of that school and that community that have done such a good job . so , i 'm absolutely convinced that where we 've got good leadership and good support , some of those schools are making continued , sustained progress even after the end of the programme . the challenge for me is for those schools that schools challenge cymru did n't work for , and we have n't seen that progress—how we can use our school improvement system now to continue to work with those schools to give them the level of support that they need to make a difference . so that 's what my focus is on now : a whole-system approach , rather than choosing 39 schools to get that level of support , when we recognise that there are schools everywhere , potentially , that need intervention , support and challenge , and in the primary sector as well . llyr gruffydd am: okay . so , you would n't agree with a number of—well , the near-unanimous evidence that we 've had from academics , some of whom are government advisers from consortia et cetera , that this kind of programme such as schools challenge cymru would probably need about five years to really have the impact that it was intended to have . kirsty williams am: what i would say is that , from my understanding , from the outset , it was a time-limited programme . the schools were aware of that . there were no surprises that it was supposed to be a time-limited programme . evidence from across the uk showed that school challenge programmes have differed in time . so , for instance , manchester 's challenge was a three-year programme . so , there 's no consensus about how many years you need to run a programme for . the previous minister was quite clear about the time-limited nature of the programme . that 's not to say it was the wrong decision , because what 's important , and an ongoing legacy of the programme , was the investment in regional school improvement capacity , because at the time our school improvement services and the regions were young , in their infancy . the ability of individual local authorities to make a difference , with so many local authorities in an estyn categorisation , was limited , so one of the ongoing legacies of the programme is that significant investment of over £10 million in the capacity of the regions to be able to continue this support and the school improvement work . llyr gruffydd am: so , how disappointed were you that the money for schools challenge cymru went back into reserves and did n't stay in your envelope , as you described it earlier ? i presume you made a pitch for it . did you make a case for that money to stay within your department ? kirsty williams am: llyr , we are constantly having discussions with the minister for finance around support for the education budget . the minister for finance was quite clear that it was a time-limited programme . we were able to secure investment from the finance minister to be able to secure the programme and run it and phase it out to make sure there was transition support , so as we moved from the schools challenge programme into the regional consortia , there were resources to do that . llyr gruffydd am: did you feel there was a case to be made to add to the consortia 's resources and be able to continue that level of support that schools had previously had ? kirsty williams am: well , we did make resources available to the regional consortia to do that . as i say , from the outset , the previous minister was very clear it was a time-limited programme . certainly the schools that i talk to— . and i want to be absolutely clear : i have visited many , many schools challenge cymru schools . i have used that opportunity to talk to them about—heolddu being one of them , hefin , which we went to visit , and willows , for instance . i 'm going to one this afternoon—i 'm going to st illtyd 's this afternoon , and i always take— . i 've been to caergybi in anglesey . i always take the opportunity to speak to those teachers about their experience of the programme and to understand and assure myself that they are getting ongoing support that they see as an appropriate level for them . i think i 've done 19 of the schools . lynne neagle am: hefin on this . hefin david am: with regard to it being a time-limited programme , the previous minister was clear that it was a time-limited programme , but it was n't quite as time-limited as you 've decided to be . is that fair to say ? kirsty williams am: no , it was supposed to be a three-year programme at the most . so , there 's no differential between when i decided it was time-limited and the expectations— hefin david am: so the time limit was the same that the previous minister put on it . kirsty williams am: yes . no change . llyr gruffydd am: but mel ainscow did tell us that there was a fade out in that third year—not that people were giving up , do n't get me wrong , but clearly there was n't that commitment coming from government because the decision had been made , and people felt that it was just fizzling out a little bit , and that impacted on the momentum . kirsty williams am: i would n't characterise it as that . i think there certainly was a transition phase when we knew that the programme was moving and schools were moving into a different level of support , but i certainly would n't describe it as a fading out—not at all . as i said , we were aware that the programme was transitioning and we were determined to get that right for those individual schools , and to learn the lessons and , crucially , to be able to apply those lessons right across the board . steve davies: i can see where the perception would come if a programme director like mel was managing the programme right to the end of the three years exactly the same , and it falls off—not a cliff , but it falls off , then the readiness for schools and the readiness in the system to hand over—so part of the shift of focus was that working as a government with the programme in those schools to working with the programme , those schools and the region . so , i think , inevitably , one party might see it as a decrease in terms of emphasis on their work , but it was necessary for the transition . llyr gruffydd am: but does that cast a bit of a shadow over the transition , then—that one key player within that process felt as such , or are you confident that that was managed well and effectively ? kirsty williams am: i think it was managed well , and we were very clear to recognise success where success has been achieved , but not to gloss over where the programme had not made an impact , because that would n't be good for anybody . there was a formal event to close the programme , which gave everybody an opportunity to get together , to be formally thanked , and for , as i said , congratulations to be given to those people who had really made a difference and , crucially , key staff transferred over into the regional consortia . so , for those individuals , they were able to continue their work , but just be able to apply that work on a regional basis rather than just in an individual school . so , i do n't see that there was any fading out , but there was a transition into a new system , and many of those key personnel transitioned into the system with us . lynne neagle am: have you got any figures for the numbers of staff who went from the programme into the consortia ? kirsty williams am: not off the top of my head , but i can let you know . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got darren first , then mark . kirsty williams am: and can i just say , i met with some of them ? i met with a selection of those people who had been involved in the programme to get their feedback on what they felt had gone right , and what they did n't feel had gone right in the programme . so , i took the time not just to meet the figurehead of the programme , but actually to meet the people who were doing the work in the individual schools . sorry . darren millar am: yes , i just wanted to ask you , you mentioned the figurehead there , i assume by 'the figurehead ' you mean professor ainscow . and you 've mentioned as well that you said you wanted to learn lessons from schools challenge cymru , but he told us that nobody had been in touch with him since march of last year in order to have any sort of follow-up engagement , or to have a dialogue about his perspective on what worked , what did n't work , why there were failures in some areas and why there were successes in others . why have n't you sought that level of engagement with the person who was responsible for running the programme ? kirsty williams am: i 've had that conversation with mr ainscow . we had the evaluation of the programme . we 've spoken to the people who were actually involved in running the programme on a daily basis in individual schools . we 've spoken to the regional consortia . we 've spoken to local education authorities . we 've spoken to a wide variety of people to get their insight into the lessons learned , what was valuable and what was not valuable . so , a wide variety of people have been involved in those conversations . darren millar am: but you 've hardly engaged with mr ainscow—with professor ainscow himself . steve davies: i would actually say that i have had meetings— darren millar am: since march of last year . steve davies: yes , since march of last year . i have n't got the exact dates for you . i 've had discussions with mel ainscow , and my line manager at the time , owen evans , also had meetings and discussions . darren millar am: so , when he told us , 'since last march , i literally have had no contact at all with anybody from welsh government ' , he was telling porky pies , was he ? steve davies: that 's not my recollection . i 'll go back and check for you . lynne neagle am: if you could check and let us know , that would be good . mark . kirsty williams am: yes , well , i just talked about the celebration event to formally mark the end of the programme . my understanding was that it was july of last year , so people were engaged in that . and this idea that somebody has been ignored or frozen out is not how i see or how i regard that situation . lynne neagle am: mark . mark reckless am: i have to say , with professor ainscow my impression was he took great , great pride in the work that he 'd done with schools challenge cymru , and i think he really enjoyed the engagement , the work and the positive relations with the welsh government . but i think there was just a degree of disappointment , perhaps , that at least he did n't feel that he 'd been interrogated as much as he might have been about the lessons learned from the programme , and how perhaps to entrench those as well as possible with the regional consortia . i just wonder , cabinet secretary , if you could invite the professor in , perhaps to have a further debrief with you and take account of some of his thoughts and suggestions for what might help in this area . kirsty williams am: well , mark , as i said , i just do n't think it should be right to characterise this as a failure to engage with a single individual . mark reckless am: i 'm not characterising it that way , cabinet secretary . kirsty williams am: as i said , i met with him , steve has met with him , owen evans has met with him , my special policy adviser has met with him and had discussions . so , there has been an ongoing dialogue . but , mark , i hope that i have demonstrated since i took on this job that i am willing to work with a wide variety of people and to tap into their expertise if it can help me to deliver on the national mission . and if the advice to me is that we have n't sufficiently learnt the lessons , then i 'll gladly have another conversation . what i 'm saying to you—and i 'm absolutely confident—is that we have learnt the lessons , we are taking that work and the good practice forward , and we have done that with conversations with a wide variety of people who had a view on this , from individual schools that were involved in the programme , individual people who were working in those schools , local education authorities , some of which have been very scathing about the programme , i should say , regional consortia— . so , the lessons , i am confident , have been learnt . mark reckless am: i 'm glad to hear that , cabinet secretary , but i still say that , listening to professor ainscow 's evidence , there was a perception , at least from him individually , that the programme should not be seen to be a failure , but a desire that the lessons should be learnt and a feeling or exception , at least on his part , that there was more that he still had to contribute to the process . and just to take one particular example , i think he referred to the schools challenge cymru advisers being very successful in bringing in people who might not otherwise have contributed to this , and the regional consortia have had greater challenges in recruiting people , perhaps in some areas , of the same high standard of some particular individuals , but also from a wide range of different areas that the schools challenge cymru do , and that there could be more to learn in that area as to how to support real excellence and a greater diversity of recruitment for those people . is that something you could perhaps draw on his thoughts further about ? because i think he does feel that he has more to say to welsh government to help in this area . kirsty williams am: firstly , can i say that i have never described the programme as a failure ? i would understand , as someone who has put so much personal investment into the brand of schools challenges , that he would not want anybody to characterise that particular approach to school improvement as a failure . and i want to be absolutely clear that i have never described the programme as a failure , and i want to reassure mr ainscow of that . as i 've said , gosh , my goodness me , if you saw my e-mail inbox and you saw the letters that come in , people are never shy in coming forward to give me advice on what i need to do , what i need to do next , what i 'm doing right , what i 'm doing wrong , and , you know , our doors are always open to listen to people who have interesting things to say about how we can deliver our educational mission . so , people are n't slow in coming forward , i can assure you , with advice . lynne neagle am: julie . julie morgan am: just very quickly . i 'm sure the minister is aware that cardiff put extra funds of its own in to continue schools challenge cymru advisers . so , obviously , they appreciated the value of the scheme , but it does query whether it should have gone on longer . kirsty williams am: julie , i think , to be fair , there are some people who think the scheme was absolutely fantastic . i 've had feedback from people who did n't think the scheme was helpful at all—in fact , they felt it was a hindrance . i 'm very much of the view that the scheme worked really well for some schools in some areas and had less impact in some areas . there is a mixed picture . what 's important to me is that we understand what it was that led those schools to make those big changes , how we can—like mark talked about , the expertise—how we can keep that expertise in the system , and how we can apply the lessons to all schools . lynne neagle am: the next questions , and the final questions , are from john . so , we 're going to need succinct questions and succinct answers . john griffiths am: some questions on regional consortia , cabinet secretary , and , first of all , the role that you believe they should play and how schools use pdg . kirsty williams am: well , it 's an absolute— . it 's one of the things that i have been very clear to the regional consortia that i expect their challenge and support advisers to be asking schools about . so , one of the conversations that they need to have when they are in schools is exploring , with that school , how they are using their pdg , and how they 're demonstrating an impact for those resources . so , it 's a fundamental role for the challenge and support advisers in the regional consortia in their school improvement work . it 's crucial . john griffiths am: that sort of brings to mind some of the research that 's been done on the role of the challenge advisers , cabinet secretary , which suggested that they 're not actually challenging schools in that way , and that there 's very little evidence of schools changing their decisions on the use of pdg as a result of any challenge from those challenge advisers . so , how would you respond to those findings ? kirsty williams am: well , as i said , in my scrutiny of the role and success of our regional consortia , i specifically asked them about free-school-meal performance and the use of pdg within their particular region . i think there is increasing evidence to suggest that good use is being made of that resource , and i think that is being fed back into us . estyn tell us that it 's one of the areas of school expenditure that is closely linked to research and an evidence base . but , clearly , there is more to do , and that 's why we have appointed the new regional advisers for pdg going forward , because we think there can be improvements in how this agenda can be supported at a regional level . john griffiths am: okay . so , you would recognise the findings from that research . kirsty williams am: yes . there 's always more that we can do , and we are strengthening that role by the appointment of the new regional pdg advisers , so that individual school challenge advisers know what they should be looking for , know what they should be doing , and there is a regional approach to good practice . john griffiths am: okay . could you tell the committee , cabinet secretary , how effective you believe the relationship was between the schools challenge cymru programme and the regional consortia 's school improvement functions , and to what extent it varied by region ? kirsty williams am: i think it 's fair to say that , on occasion , i have received feedback that there was a conflict between what was going on at an individual school under the school improvement programme and whether , then , they welcomed support from the regional consortia as part of that . so , in some cases , if we 're being absolutely honest , there could sometimes be tensions between the two , but in most cases , the relationship was very , very positive and there was continuous feedback between the work going on in the schools under the programme and the regional consortia challenge advisers . but i 'm going to be blunt and honest with people—in some cases , it has been reported to me—it 's only anecdotal evidence ; i have n't got hard and fast evidence—that there sometimes was a conflict : 'we 're a school challenge school so we do n't need to participate or listen to any advice that 's coming from the regional consortia . ' or , a local education authority said to me , 'we felt that we could n't get involved in that school anymore because it was part of a different programme . ' those were isolated incidents , and , as i said , it 's only anecdotal feedback . in most cases , the relationship was a very positive one . steve davies: just very quickly , i think that , across the board , it was more complex in the beginning , getting— [ inaudible. ] . but when the programme itself recognised that they needed to work with the regions , and the regions needed to work with them—and i think mel ainscow in his evidence referred to this—it strengthened after some early challenges . i think mel ainscow was working in a number of regions—i ca n't remember which ones—so he 's established relationships— [ interruption . ] sorry ? kirsty williams am: central south . steve davies: central south . he has already been working in that , so i think it possibly had a stronger springboard in terms of the early working . kirsty williams am: because he already had relationships that he had already developed in that particular region . as always , with many of these things , it 's about individuals and relationships . john griffiths am: okay . finally from me , cabinet secretary : in 2015-16 , estyn reported on regional consortia not sufficiently focusing on particular groups of pupils and tracking their outcomes—for example , vulnerable pupils . i just wonder what you are able to tell us in terms of to what extent there has been necessary progress since 2015-16 . kirsty williams am: okay . well , i think it 's important to recognise that all four consortia underwent monitoring visits in the autumn of last year , of 2017 , which were n't reflected in the estyn annual report for 2015-16. estyn , through these 2017 inspections , have said that three out of the four regional consortia are making strong progress in their particular work , and we are continuing , as welsh government , to work with the other regional consortia to address the findings of the estyn report . john griffiths am: and that would include these particular issues . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . the committee probably has n't had an opportunity to see , but , only this morning , estyn has released a report on more able and talented , and has positive things to say in the field of more able and talented , which was being asked about earlier by members—you know , evidence of improved working and support in that particular arena . but , again , we need to ensure a consistency across all the regions , and that the findings of estyn 's most recent reports into regional performance are followed through . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . as we 've got a couple of minutes left , if i can just jump back to the issue of practical uses of the pdg—because it 's the only thing we have n't really covered and it would be good to get on the record—can i ask to what extent you 'd like to see the pdg used to track the progress of eligible pupils ? and the committee 's heard that there are several different tracking systems and tools used by schools . to what extent is that an issue to do with what the welsh government is promoting ? or is it down to consortia or individual schools ? and do you think there needs to be a more centralised push on how the tracking is undertaken ? kirsty williams am: firstly , can i say it 's absolutely crucial that we track performance , absolutely crucial ? that 's the bedrock . we do n't dictate to individual schools the nature of the system that they should employ in their school . there are a number of different programmes that allow schools to do this , but we are absolutely clear , and best practice and evidence shows us , that individual pupil tracking is key and crucial . and , as i said in the beginning , where we were n't tracking pupils at all , initial investment in pdg was used to establish these systems within schools . again , one of the outcomes from the schools challenge review , and one of the lessons learnt , was , again , the importance of individual tracking of pupils throughout their school career . but we do n't dictate a single system . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . kirsty williams am: but the principle is a really important one . lynne neagle am: okay , and you do n't think there 's more scope to look at what the best system is that can be recommended to schools . kirsty williams am: that 's not something we 're actively looking at . i am actively looking at developing a welsh toolkit around good practice , evidence base and research . at the moment we use the sutton trust toolkit , which is fine and excellent , but we are having active discussions about whether we 're in a position , now , to look at developing a suite of a welsh toolkit to support this agenda , and that 's under active consideration . lynne neagle am: okay . well , we 've reached the end of our session . can i thank the cabinet secretary and the officials for attending and for answering such a wide range of questions ? as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you again for coming . kirsty williams am: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: thank you . okay . item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the minister for children and social care on families first funding . paper to note 2 is a letter from the cabinet secretary for education , updating us on the supply teacher issue . paper to note 3—another letter from the cabinet secretary for education , providing further information following our meeting on 15 february . paper to note 4 is a letter from the wjec on availability of textbooks . paper to note 5—a letter from qualifications wales , also on availability of textbooks . and paper to note 6 is a letter from the cabinet secretary for education to the children 's commissioner for wales , following up on the dialogue that they 've been having about our inquiry . are members happy to note those ? thank you . item 4 , then , is for me to propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

according to kirsty williams , there is no specific answer . there 's no single reason why there seems to be less resilience in this cohort of children . they think that they ca n't draw broad-brush conclusions . the challenge is to go into individual schools and understand what was happening in that particular school that ensured that their children did really well . they continue to have discussions with qualifications wales to get a better understanding of this , and in may , they 'll be doing a deep dive into this particular subject .

what is the role of schools with pdg for looked-after children as compared to the regional consortia in this field ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to this morning 's children , young people and education committee . we 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members who are present if they wish to declare any interests ? okay , thank you . item 2 this morning is our final evidence session for our inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams am , cabinet secretary for education ; steve davies , director of the education directorate ; and ruth conway , deputy director , support for learners division . welcome to all of you , and thank you for your attendance and also for the paper that you 've provided in advance . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions , and the first questions are from llyr gruffydd . llyr gruffydd am: bore da . i just want to start by asking some questions around the targeting of the pupil development grant because , clearly , we 've had a lot of evidence around this apparent blurring of eligibility to an extent . i 'm just wondering how comfortable you are that the money is being targeted appropriately because , clearly , it 's being targeted more widely than just those eligible for free school meals , from some of the evidence we 've had , but also that it seems to be predominantly focused on low-attaining frees—pupils who are eligible for free school meals . kirsty williams am: thank you , llyr . i think it 's important to be absolutely clear that when it comes to individual interventions , those individual interventions should only be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals . but in some cases , schools may use their pdg funding to provide a universal intervention , but we would want to—in challenge advisers ' discussions in schools—we 'd want to have evidence that that universal intervention would have a disproportionate effect on the outcomes for children on free school meals . so , for instance , if i give you an example in your own region , llyr : at brynteg county primary school in wrexham , if you look at that primary school in wrexham , their results for free-school-meal children at the end of their primary school period in school are equivalent to their non-free-school-meal counterparts . so , there is no differentiation in those results . one of the things that they 've used their pdg for is to really focus on the concept of growth mindset in school . so , that 's a universal thing that they 've trained all the teachers in , but what we know is that that has a disproportionate effect on those children who are on free school meals . so , if you 're familiar with the concept of a growth mindset , it 's about really challenging learners to think that , ' i can do things . if sometimes i fail , i pick myself up , i 'm more resilient . ' now , that has been , as i said , trained to all the teachers in the school—it 's an ethos for the whole school—but we have seen that the impact on the free-school-meal children has been even greater , and now they 're at the same level . so , that 's the important distinction . individual intervention per child has to be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals , but sometimes a school will employ a whole-school approach to train their staff , for instance , and that , then , has to demonstrate it has a disproportionate effect on free school meals . so , growth mindset ; it may be attachment disorder training for staff , for instance , where we know it 's of benefit to everybody , but will have particular benefits for that cohort of students . with regard to more able and talented , you know , llyr , that this is an area of concern for me , generally , within the welsh education system ; that we 've not been particularly good at identifying , supporting and driving attainment for those children . i 'm absolutely clear that pdg needs to be used for those children who are eligible to drive potential , whatever the potential of that child is , including more able and talented . and again , i 'll give you an example that has been seen as good practice in pembrokeshire : a window on the world bus , again paid for by schools . i do n't know if you 're aware of it . llyr gruffydd am: we 've heard about that . kirsty williams am: oh , you 've heard about it ; well , it 's a really good example the window on the world . and , again , that 's very much targeted at raising aspirations and giving children who are more able and talented , who are eligible for pdg , those experiences , and to really push them . so , yes , i 'm absolutely clear that pdg should n't just be seen to be getting individuals to the average . for those children who are more able and talented , it should be used to support them— llyr gruffydd am: and we all share those aspirations , i 'm sure , and you pointed to examples of good practice , but of course , it 's not universal , is it , so what i 'm asking is : do you think that the guidance is sufficient as it is ? do you think that there 's a great enough awareness of how the pdg should be used at the coalface ? and also , are you confident that consortia and others have the measures in place to be able to demonstrate that it is being used properly ? kirsty williams am: i think , if we look at what estyn has said about pdg , it does actually recognise that the pdg is being used to push more able and talented children , but as always with the system , llyr , it 's whether we can be sure that that is strategic and that it 's happening across all of our schools . so , you're— llyr gruffydd am: but not just in relation to more able and talented , i 'm referring to the eligibility and the targeting . kirsty williams am: oh , the eligibility . you 'll be aware that , on the advice of sir alasdair , we have employed and appointed new pdg regional advisers , and i think their role is going to be absolutely crucial in spreading that good practice across the region , whether that 's use of pdg for more able and talented , or ensuring that pdg is used in the appropriate way . so , that 's there to provide strategic overall advice . and obviously , we have been very clear with regional challenge advisers , in the relationship and the conversations they 're having with individual schools , that they 're really challenging their schools about the use of pdg , not just in terms of targeting , but the programmes , what the money is being spent on , whether there is an evidence base for that and whether we are clear on impact . so , i think the new regional advisers are going to be crucial in enabling us to ensure more consistent practice across the regions . llyr gruffydd am: so , are you content that eligibility for free school meals is the best measure , really , of identifying which pupils to target ? kirsty williams am: llyr , in the absence of anything better . i 'll be the first person to say that maybe it 's not as absolutely focused , but in the absence of anything different to identify a proxy for need , i think it 's probably the best that we 've got at present . and we will continue to have discussions with local government about whether there are different ways . we have to be mindful . some of the policy levers in this area are out of my hands , so if we look at the roll-out of universal credit , for instance , we 've got officials working very hard at the moment to try and understand what universal credit is going to mean and where we are going to be able to identify relative need , going forward . we have n't had any additional resource as a result of this , but we 're very mindful that , potentially , this has an impact , going forward . and , officials are working all of the time , i must say , in conjunction with the department in england , to understand their thinking in this area so that we are in a position to make some decisions about what a notional eligibility for free school meals will look like going forward , but before i make any decisions , i want to assure everybody that there will be a full public consultation on that . llyr gruffydd am: okay . finally for now , on this issue of once a year , in january , if you 're eligible for free school meals , then you 're in that group for that year . we 've had some quite strong evidence about how difficult that makes longer term planning for a number of schools and we 've also been pointed in the direction of what 's happened in england with the ever 6 , and i 'm just wondering whether you 're giving any thought to maybe changing that a little bit . kirsty williams am: well , we 're certainly giving thought to flexibility . in conversations with alasdair , who is our independent adviser on this agenda , and individual schools , we 're actively giving thought to greater flexibility and maybe longer term projections , so that schools know , for a number of years ahead , what their allocation will be . there are advantages to that system , because you could give that flexibility , you could give that long-term approach , but then , how do you make that responsive if a school suddenly has more children ? we do know that , actually , the number of free-school-meal pupils is dropping . but there can be changes , you know , regional working in areas of north wales in tourism , or maybe in other areas at christmas time , parents are able to get a period of work . so , how can we create a more flexible system ? we 're actively looking at that at the moment . i would n't use it as an ever 6 concept , but as an 'ever 2 ' concept . we have looked at ever 6 , and i 'm going to be absolutely blunt with you : to introduce an ever 6 concept for wales would mean in the region of identifying an additional £40 million . i 'm going to be absolutely straight and blunt with you : we 're not in a position at the moment to be able to identify an additional £40 million to introduce an ever 6. but issues around flexibility , certainly , are actively under consideration . in fact , we 'll be having a discussion later on today about decisions , going forward , for the next two years . llyr gruffydd am: thank you . lynne neagle am: darren on this . darren millar am: it 's just a very brief point in response to the £40 million price ticket that you just put on that . that 's , of course , assuming that you maintain the current level of pdg , yes ? so , if you reduced the level of pdg slightly , but made it available to more individuals , if you like , via allocating it in a different way , then that £40 million price ticket would n't be there , would it ? kirsty williams am: i was asked a question about had i ever considered an ever 6. we have looked at that , we 've priced that up . i have to make decisions in the envelope of resources that are available to me . we could , indeed , change the way in which we allocate pdg money , but we have to do it within the envelope that is available to me , over £90 million . that 's a significant level of investment , but , of course , as always , darren , we could cut the amount per pupil , but that might have quite challenging swings in allocations . what we have done—because what i am clear on is that there was evidence to suggest that in the secondary sector , a great deal of pdg was being focused on years 10 and 11 , especially year 11 , in catch-up provision , and you 'll be aware , because we 've said this in evidence to the committee in the papers , we 've set a challenge to secondary schools to say , 'actually , the majority of your pdg allocation has to be used in key stage 3 . ' now , we have to balance the needs , the moral hazard of turning round to children in years 10 and 11 and saying , 'we're not going to provide catch-up opportunities for you , ' because , clearly , those children need that support . but the evidence and the advice that we 're receiving is : actually , strong focus on early years , primary and key stage 3 , if we get that right , should negate the need for spending money on catch-up at years 10 and 11. that 's why we , in our advice to local authorities and schools , say that we want to see evidence that they 're spending this money earlier on in a child 's career , rather than just a scramble at year 11 to say , 'right , we 've got to get you through your exams . ' darren millar am: okay , but have you actively considered , then , reducing the level you have ? kirsty williams am: we've— ruth conway: sorry—i was just going to say that one of the things is looking at the scope of the definition , and i think it 's about being more flexible with the definition , rather than reducing the amount per head . darren millar am: okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you . if we can go on , then , to talk about some of the practical uses of the pdg , you write in your written paper that 'the majority of schools are making well thought out and appropriate decisions ' on how to use it . but estyn reported that only two thirds of primary and secondary schools make effective use of the pdg . given that we 've had it now for six years , would you not have expected there to be a higher level of schools actually making good use of that funding ? kirsty williams am: well , to flip it on its head , the vast majority of schools , as identified by estyn , are using this money to good effect . so , that 's the way i like to see it—that the vast majority of schools are doing well . what estyn has also indicated is the intrinsic link here to leadership within individual schools , and as you 'll be aware , leadership , improving capacity in leadership and developing leadership talent in the welsh education system is a key priority for me in our national mission . of course , that 's being developed in a different work stream . i think what 's fair to say is that the use of pdg is evolving over time . i think we are seeing , increasingly , more and more schools understanding how best to deploy that money for best effect for students . so , if we 're honest , when pdg first started , i think , in some schools it was spent on investing in tracking of children , because they 'd never thought about tracking these children , they did n't have systems in place to look at the performance of these children , and to have a system in place . so we 've moved now from spending money on the infrastructure around support for fsm children into actual inputs in terms of teaching and learning . we 're also seeing from estyn that , actually , in terms of money following the evidence of what we know works , estyn says that pdg is probably the best example of schools following tried and tested and evidence-based interventions to deploy the money . but clearly we want all of this money to be deployed as well as it can be , and again we come back to the decision i 've made to appoint regional pdg advisers so that we can get that better consistency of approach . we are , in the discussions that i have with the regional consortia about how they challenge individual schools on usage , looking for very clear evidence of schools using the sutton trust toolkit , and we could have a discussion about whether that 's the right thing , because that 's on my mind too . but we want to see schools demonstrating their evidence base , and if they 're not , if a school is n't doing that , okay , so demonstrate to us why you 've made those decisions and , crucially , what are you doing as the school to judge whether that decision is actually making a difference for your individual pupils . so , if you 're moving away from tried and tested interventions , what we know works , if you 're doing something different with your money , okay , you need to justify that and you need to explain how you 're going to demonstrate impact . but i think what we 're seeing is increasing good practice in this area as the pdg develops and as our understanding of our school-to-school working in our self-improving school system also develops . i think we 're seeing better usage of the money year on year . lynne neagle am: thank you . llyr on this . llyr gruffydd am: you mentioned some schools will be moving from the tried-and-tested interventions , really , and i 'm just wondering to what extent that evolution of use of pdg is being driven by cuts to core funding . kirsty williams am: no , i do n't think it 's being driven by cuts to core funding . i think there has been— . one of the biggest impacts of pdg has not been—well , i suppose it is the money in itself , because the money has concentrated the minds , has n't it ? so , one of the most important things that pdg has done is highlight the importance of this agenda within schools , and really raise this up in the thinking of leadership and senior management teams in our schools , and has driven a focus on scrutiny and accountability in the systems that are working with our schools . i think the changing use of pdg reflects the journeys that schools have been on , some of them from a very low base where this was not a priority for them , to better understanding , and as research and as intelligence grows over time in this area , both in wales and outside of wales , schools are increasingly learning to use that evidence to tailor approaches in their schools . llyr gruffydd am: so you would n't accept at all that some of this money 's being used to paper over some funding cracks from elsewhere . because the unions and some others have told us that , whether we like it or not , there is some of that going on . kirsty williams am: as i said , llyr , we 're very clear about the usage that this money can be spent on in terms of individuals or universal application within schools , and that forms an important part of the checks and balances that we have in our system . can we continue to improve , and ensure that more and more of our schools are employing best practice ? yes , we can , and as i 've said , we 've taken steps to put in place the infrastructure to support that . lynne neagle am: thank you . mark 's questions are next . mark reckless am: cabinet secretary , how would you assess the impact of pdg on attendance and hopefully subsequent engagement with education from children who have free school meals ? kirsty williams am: i think what 's important to note is that , as estyn have themselves said , over the period of the last inspection report , we have seen improvements in attendance , but i do think we need to , again , look at how pdg can support this particular agenda . and as always in the welsh education system , there are some excellent examples of how schools use the money to address this . ysgol y preseli in pembrokeshire is a very good example of how they 've deployed their money . forgive me ; i ca n't off the top of my head remember the name of the primary school i visited , again in north wales , where the school has proactively used this money , and they actually send teaching assistants out of school in the morning before the start of the school day , and they actually have a walking bus . they call at homes for children , and they walk the children to the breakfast club . so , they 're proactively going out into the community and making sure that those children are in the classrooms , because the teacher said , 'we recognised we had a problem with attendance . we tried a variety of means of improving that , but in the end we have taken this quite bold step—we actually send the staff out and they create that walking bus , and they walk the children into school ' . they say that they know that , for some of those children , because of the difficult circumstances they and their families are living in , they probably would n't be in school if it was n't for that proactive approach . so , we 're looking again at what more we can do to support this particular agenda in terms of improving attendance , because although , again , there are examples of good practice , there is still a gap between the attendance of free-school-meal pupils and non-free-school-meal pupils . and , of course , we can have the best curriculum in the world with really high-quality teaching , but unless the children are in the classes then we 're not going to make the difference for them . whilst that differential exists , then it 's going to be hard to close the attainment gap for those children . mark reckless am: i was actually quite shocked just reading in advance of this meeting that the proportion attending 95 per cent or more , who have pretty full attendance , was only 35 per cent for free-school-meal children at level 4 , compared to 60 per cent for non-free-school-meal pupils . it still is an extraordinary difference . my colleague here showed me , i think , last week , a graph showing the link between attendance and attainment , in particular . when people were absent , a lot of the— . as i 'm sure you 're aware , there 's a huge connection . what more can pdg do to deal with it ? in the example you give i can see how a school with an awful lot of free-school-meal children could do that , but a lot of the free-school-meal children are actually in schools that do n't have that high a proportion of free school meals , where it would be much more challenging to bring in that type of initiative . kirsty williams am: yes , indeed , and i think it gets more challenging the older the children get . i think it 's more difficult to find interventions that are successful higher up , so key stage 4. so , you can do a walking bus with little ones , ca n't you , but i do n't suppose your average 15 or 16-year-old is going to take very kindly to that . so , you do need a different approach to that . but again , we see in ysgol y preseli the employment of staff to directly work with families of older children to reinforce the messages around , as you quite rightly say , the linkage between attendance and attainment , and really work with individual families to understand the barriers to attendance : what 's going on in the family that is preventing that child from going to school , and what more can the school do to address those situations . but you 're absolutely right ; there is more that we need to do to address this particular agenda of attainment . i do n't know if there 's anything extra you wanted to add , steve . steve davies: there is also another very good example—and i take what you say about where there are small numbers—but in our secondary schools where there are significant numbers , they 're investing pdg in resources like a school nurse and a school counsellor , not just to work with the children but link to other agencies on whom the children and the families are dependent to support them in terms of working with schools . so , it 's something , particularly in our most challenging areas , where it can not just be delivered within the school . so , good use of that resource is being made to employ people to support them in those wider areas . mark reckless am: thank you . to what extent is pdg also used to seek to reduce the higher rates of exclusion for children entitled to free school meals ? kirsty williams am: so , if we looked at permanent exclusions , there is n't a differential , but if we look at temporary exclusions , there we see there is a disproportionate number of children on free school meals that are subject to those exclusions . again , i think what schools employing best practice understand is that you need a multi-agency approach to supporting that particular child . some of those exclusions can be as a result of the need to address other issues going on in a child 's life . so , this is where we come back to the committee 's work , for instance , on mental health and support for children , support for behaviour in school . so , again , it 's a multi-agency approach that i think we need , and , in our good schools , our really , really good schools , there 's a recognition of that need to have a whole team around a child to support that child in education . with eotas , we made some changes last year regarding pdg for eotas . so , for those children who do find themselves in education other than at school , we are providing additional support that previously was not available . mark reckless am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . we 're going to move on now to talk about the impact of pdg on attainment . hefin david has got some questions . hefin david am: it appears that the attainment gap at 2017 has actually widened , in spite of pdg levels . is that correct ? kirsty williams am: yes . so , if you look at it—with the usual caveats about whether you can make direct comparisons on level 2 plus between the exams the year before and the exams that we had last summer—on the face of it , the gap has increased . i think what 's important to recognise , hefin , is a direction of travel . i 'm sure we all want to , because i want to , have a discussion about why children on free school meals were less resilient in the exam system last year . but , if we look at the period that we have been employing pdg , over that period , we have seen a narrowing of the gap . i think what 's quite stark , if we think about it— . so , if we look at where we started from : in 2009 , one in five children on free school meals got level 2 plus—one in five—by 2016 , we had got that down to one in three . obviously , there 's still a way to go , but , sir alasdair , who knows about these things , says that that is a significant improvement . last year , we got some challenges . we need to understand why that happened , but i do think it's— hefin david am: why , do you think ? kirsty williams am: why , do i think ? what i do think is there is no one answer . there is no one answer to this . i think we could look at and we can have discussions around the move from btec to science gcses . i think we have supplied figures to the committee about the significant change in the number of children on free school meals who were n't doing a single science gcse and are now doing science gcses . we can look at the unintended consequences of literature . again , we 've supplied figures . where children have done language and literature , whether that be through the medium of english or through the medium of welsh , there is more resilience . so , it 's that exposure to literacy in all its forms that i think could potentially make a difference . so , i think there 's no one answer to why free-school-meal children were not so resilient last year . we continue to have discussions with qualifications wales to get a better understanding of this . at my next ministerial policy board , in may , we 'll be doing a deep dive into this particular subject . hefin david am: so , to what extent would exam boards be responsible for lack of grade stability ? kirsty williams am: it could be one of the contributory factors . what i think is important is that there is no one , single reason why there seems to be less resilience in this cohort of children . hefin david am: will you be speaking to the exam boards about this and raising concerns ? kirsty williams am: i have written to qualifications wales , we 've had discussions about it , but i 've asked them to formally submit evidence ahead of my policy board for may , where , as i said , we will be doing a formal , deep-dive discussion across the department about these issues . but , again , hefin , what we 've got to be clear on is—while we look at overall factors , you know , our overall national statistic—we did see some schools last year whose fsm performance was better than it had been the year before . so , what was it in those schools that enabled those children to do really well , whereas , in other schools , the performance was different ? even in individual cities , you can see a huge variety of performance . so , take cardiff and swansea , our two biggest cities . you 've got schools in those cities with comparative levels of free school meals . so , you could have really high-performing schools with a very small number of the cohort on free school meals . the difference between those performances in a single city—so , that 's the same local education authority and the same regional consortium—you can see a massive change . there 's one school i can talk to : their free-school-meal performance is 88 per cent . a similar school in the same city with the same proportion of children on free school meals , their performance is down in the 20 per cents . so , i think what 's important is that we ca n't draw broad-brush conclusions . for me , the challenge is to go into individual schools and understand what was happening in that particular school that ensured that their children did really well . we 've got one school in swansea , their fsm performance at gcse level 2 outperforms non-fsm pupils . hefin david am: but we still need to rely on the trends from a distance . if we take your argument that 2017 was an unusual year and the trends up to 2016 were positive , in a few years ' time , when we will be looking back in two years ' time , how are we going to measure this progress , say , in 2019 ? what are we likely to see and what methods are you going to use to measure progress that way ? kirsty williams am: well , you 'll be aware that we are moving away from level 2 plus as a performance measure anyway because of the— hefin david am: so , what performance measures will you use ? kirsty williams am: so , for the lack of sophistication around the level 2 plus , and for the unintended behaviours that that particular performance measure has driven within our schools . i 'll be making a statement shortly to the assembly around a new performance measure for schools . we were , at our most recent secondary heads conference , working with schools to develop that . what 's important to me is that we have a more sophisticated model that looks at school performance for all children . what level 2 plus does is narrow , very much , the focus of schools on an individual part of the cohort , usually the c/d borderline , which is why then we have problems with the number of students getting a b grade or above . we have marked success in our schools by saying to schools that a c is good enough . well , if a child gets a c but came to you in year 7 and they were destined to get an e , yes , indeed , a c is a success , because you 've moved that child on ; but , if that child came to you destined to get an a * and gets a c , then we have n't done a good job by that particular child . so , we need a performance measure that is much more sophisticated , looks at each individual child , tracks that progress , and measures the value added by that school in performance . hefin david am: last question : therefore , should we have confidence in the data up to 2016 ? is there a lack of confidence in that data ? kirsty williams am: no , it 's not a lack of confidence in the data . the data is the data . what i 'm saying is , using that as a performance measure and an accountability measure within our school system may have been right for the time . i think it is now right to have a different way of measuring success in schools . i think that particular set of performance measures has driven certain behaviours—not because ministers wanted that to happen , but as an unintended consequence . i think we can work together with our school system , learning the lessons of international best practice , to develop much more sophisticated accountability and performance measures for individual schools , and , i should say , for the government . so , you will be aware of my intention to issue the first national report card on government performance later on this year . so , this is not about trying to avoid scrutiny . it 's about trying to develop a more sophisticated way , which is in line with our national mission , where every child 's education is valued , and where the impact of the school can be tracked more effectively . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . can i just ask , cabinet secretary , are you still holding on to your target of 37 per cent of free-school-meal pupils achieving the level 2 threshold ? kirsty williams am: well , we 're moving away from the level 2 threshold . so , that 's the first thing to say . so , we will want to develop a new suite , in line with our new accountability measures , as we go forward . so , we will be absolutely continuing to track and evaluate the performance of free-school-meal pupils . when we announce our new accountability measures , i will be in a position to address how we 'll measure the government's performance , and national performance , going forward . but , given the fact that we 're moving away from level 2 plus , then we will need a different set of performance indicators . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the next questions are on looked-after children and adopted children , and i 've got questions from michelle then mark . michelle brown am: thank you . good morning— mark reckless am: i was to come in first , i think . i was about to ask about icf consulting . lynne neagle am: go on then . mark reckless am: i think my questions are first , but , michelle , please do correct me if you were planning to come in before . the pdg for looked-after children does n't quite seem to have the degree of visibility as the pdg for the free-school-meals . i think we had the mori/wiserd survey—only 15 per cent of primary schools and 23 per cent of secondary schools were aware that pdg was targeted at looked-after children . i just wonder—can you clarify on the record here what is the role of schools with pdg for looked-after children as compared to the regional consortia in this field ? kirsty williams am: okay . i think it is absolutely fair to say that most awareness around pdg is around free school meals . there is less awareness around the availability of pdg to support looked-after children . i think that 's probably in the nature of the cohort , so , there are more children subject to free school meals than are subject to being looked after . so , i think that 's part of the explanation . a decision was taken in 2015 to regionalise pdg for looked-after children . my understanding was that the thinking behind that at the time was around a greater strategic deployment of that resource and to try and drive a greater impact than how it was being used previously . so , looked-after pdg is held at a regional level . we have looked-after children pdg co-ordinators—they 're in their second year this year—to look at a regional deployment of that resource . and that resource can be done in a variety of ways , through individual allocation to a school to support an individual child , through to capacity building for the whole system . so , for instance , if i give you an example , in carmarthenshire , there 's been a big emphasis on attachment disorder and training teachers with regard to the impact of attachment disorder . carmarthenshire happens to be one of those local authorities that does quite well in terms of attainment for looked-after children . but , clearly , i have—not concerns . 'concerns ' is n't the right word . but i have asked officials to give greater scrutiny to how that resource has been used in the last year . steve , on my behalf , wrote out to the system , setting out our expectations , but also advising them of the fact we will be asking very detailed questions of accountability for that money . so , what has that money been used on and how can you account for the effect ? but , steve , maybe you can give some greater detail . steve davies: i think the challenge that— . one of the rationales for shifting—not that all the money stays in the region , but having a regional strategic support—was that , historically , the money was going directly with that child to the school . given the quite often rapid turnover of children in schools—the very nature of looked-after children is they do sometimes move through foster parents—historically , what happened , the money lands in the school , because , at that time in the year , when it 's measured , the school gets the money and can spend it on some additional support for staff , but quite often that child moves on to another school and the money does n't transfer . some schools will go through quite a number of years without having a looked-after child and will not think strategically , 'how do i need to support them ? ' so , that was the rationale of the shift . in terms of the implementation of the regional allocation , as of this financial year finishing , we are going into local authorities and regions to evaluate where they 've located the resource , what the impact of that resource has been , so that is reinforced and shared more widely . kirsty williams am: and then , to reassure , it 's not just internally that we 're looking at this . we have a contract with an external agency to do an evaluation— mark reckless am: that 's icf consulting . kirsty williams am: yes . yes , so that was done in the autumn of last year , because , as i said , we had concerns about whether this was really having the effect that was intended . so , my expectation is that we will be in a position to receive that report later on this spring , and of course it would be my intention that that report would be made public for people to have a look at what— mark reckless am: that was commissioned last autumn— kirsty williams am: yes , in november 2017 . mark reckless am: november 2017 . kirsty williams am: so , i 'm hoping to have that published before the summer recess . i 'm very reluctant to say months ; i 've learnt not to say months , because they move . lynne neagle am: i 'm going to go to michelle now , mark , because— mark reckless am: sure . i will come back in if i have anything further to ask here after michelle . lynne neagle am: —both of you asked for these questions , and that 's what the pre-meeting is for . mark reckless am: michelle , i defer to you . lynne neagle am: michelle . michelle brown am: okay , thank you . would you be open , cabinet secretary , to the idea of adjusting the eligibility of the pdg so that pupils who have been looked after or adopted at any point within a previous given period of time would attract the pdg , rather than only if they 're looked-after on a one-off date ? kirsty williams am: as i said earlier , in questions from , i think it was , llyr , who was talking about concepts of concepts of ever 6 , we are constantly looking at how we can get that balance between focus and flexibility for this resource . llyr opened with the question of , 'how can you absolutely ensure that these children are getting the money ? ' , but then there 's also a tension about how can you create some flexibility around the school 's usage of the grant . so , we will look at that . i think there is the issue of where a school would know of a child that was looked after . issues around adoption are slightly more sensitive , because we could n't force a family to tell a school that their child was an adopted child . so , a family may be very open and very keen to explain that to a school , but we ca n't necessarily track as closely children who have been adopted , especially if that adoption happens before the child goes to school . we ca n't be in a position of forcing families to disclose this information if they do n't want to , but we certainly can , as i say , look to strengthen our monitoring arrangements around pdg support for looked-after children and the impact that that 's having . i just think we need to be a bit mindful of people 's privacy in some instances . if they do n't want to divulge that , it would n't be my job to tell a family , 'you have to let us know if your child is adopted . ' lynne neagle am: michelle . michelle brown am: fair enough ; thank you for that answer . the eas consortium 's approach to using the looked-after and adopted pdg is to use it as part of a broader approach targeted at vulnerable learners in general . what are your views on that approach ? kirsty williams am: i 'm a great believer in if we can get it right for our most vulnerable learners , we 'll be getting it right for all of our learners . i gave the example earlier , for instance , of attachment disorder , and , chair , you will know that i have had conversations . one of the emerging themes for me , as i go around visiting schools , is the impact and the growing awareness and the growing numbers of children who have attachment disorder , and how schools are best able to respond to that in their children . so , for instance , as i said about carmarthenshire , there 's been a huge effort to address that in the school sector in carmarthenshire . now , that has a disproportionate benefit for those children , because you 're more likely to see attachment disorder in children who are care experienced , because of the nature of the lives that those children have lived , but that does n't necessarily mean that attachment disorder is exclusively found in those children that are looked after . it can be found in other families as well . so , that vulnerable learner , regardless of their background , will benefit from having teachers who are better trained , understanding and have intervention strategies in place to be able to address that need . steve davies: i think it 's also important to add that this is not one region 's approach ; this is across four regions , so the others— . for example , erw have run a significant programme looking at the impact of adverse childhood experiences on pupils , which has enabled teachers to detect some of the impact of some of those and then considers some of the work they need to do within the school but also with other agencies . so , it is something that's applied consistently across the four regions . kirsty williams am: i was in pil primary school recently where they use their pdg , both fsm pdg , and no doubt an element of pdg for looked-after , for nurture groups . so , for those children who really , really find it very difficult to be in the main classroom , they can have that nurture group experience to address issues around emotional behaviour , feelings , and it gets them in a position where they are able then to join the main classroom because issues around behaviour have been addressed and they 're in a better position to learn . so , again , this is an example of how vulnerable learners in the wider sense can benefit . lynne neagle am: okay . mark , did you have anything you wanted to ask ? mark reckless am: yes . can i follow up on tracking adopted children ? i entirely understand that you ca n't force parents to disclose that their child is adopted . however , my understanding was that , in england , there was a dataset with social services that was shared with schools in a way that i 'm not clear is happening in wales and how , if at all , that links to the pupil level annual school census data . perhaps sort of linked to that , is n't there an argument for making the parents of adopted children in the schools , potentially , with adopted children more aware that adopted children who were previously looked after have this potential grant , and would they not be more willing to disclose this , at least confidentially to the school and government , if they knew there was this upside of doing so ? kirsty williams am: we 're actively looking at whether we should try and find a way of collecting this data , with the caveats that i just gave earlier . we ca n't force parents to divulge information that is a matter for them , nor would i want to . but there is an active discussion going on at the moment about whether we could create a dataset where people divulge this information and we can then track the children through . you 're absolutely right . one of the ways in which we can often encourage take-up , for instance , of free school meals , especially in those communities where there is a sense of reluctance to apply for support—even though people are entitled to it , there 's a reluctance to do it ; sometimes we see this in rural areas— . actually , appealing to the parents by saying , 'actually , this will mean more money for your child 's school budget' is a much more compelling reason why people will apply for it then saying , 'actually , it 's going to help you ' , because they do n't want to be seen being dependent , they do n't want to be seen being helped . but , if you say to them , 'actually , do you know that this means more money for your child 's school ? ' , they go , 'oh , all right then , i 'll fill in the forms now . ' so , you 're right , i think there is something that we could do to make parents understand , in the round , that this has an impact . but we are actively looking at and discussing whether we could create a dataset around adopted children and how we can do that in line with data protection and data sharing . one of the things i am concerned about in the performance of looked-after children generally is how we can , across government , work more closely together . we ca n't see the educational attainment of looked-after children just being a job of education . it 's got to be a job of social services and the health service as well . there 's got to be a joined-up approach to doing that . now , officials were at the ministerial advisory group that 's chaired by david melding on prospects for looked-after children . they were there at the group last week . david tells me that the paper was very positively received by the group . i will be sitting down with david melding to talk through what more we can do on the education side . i think there 's really an appetite between me and the minister for children to get a closer working relationship on this . we ca n't expect schools to do it on their own and alone . and there are things that we can do out there in local authorities to help improve outcomes . it 's not just about the pdg ; it is about , when social services are thinking about a placement , where does the discussion about where children are going to go to school—when does that take place ? do we talk about the placement , move a child and then think , 'oh my goodness me , what are we going to do about the schooling ? ' if you can imagine , the school could have been working really , really hard with a pupil to get them in a good place , to get them being able to access the curriculum , and then social services decide that the placement is being changed . so , we potentially lose all of that . so , a greater involvement in education and better linked-up working in local authorities will help us with this . it ca n't be just the job of the pdg . if we think we can crack this with just pdg , then we 're being delusional . it has to be a cross-government approach at a national level , and at a local government level as well , to get this right . sometimes , data protection—how can we break down some of these barriers between , you know , the school does n't need to , schools should n't see , the entire social services report ? well , maybe the school does need to see some of that background information if they 're going to have an impact for that child . so , there 's more work to do , but it can not be just the job of education on its own if we 're going to make a difference , nor can it just be the job of the pdg to make a difference for those children . lynne neagle am: thank you . julie 's got some more questions on the impact on adopted and looked-after children . julie morgan am: yes , before i go on to those , i just wanted to support , really , what mark was saying about adopted children and how important it is , i think , that the adoptive parents feel able to speak to the school and to give information . because certainly any evidence we 've had from adoptive parents , and generally knowing about what adoptive parents do feel , is that they often feel that there 's a degree of a lack of sensitivity in the school about the issues of adoption . i would certainly support some move towards ensuring that the atmosphere was open in a way that would encourage them to realise that it would be a help for the children if there was an awareness in the school . so , i just wanted to really reinforce that . kirsty williams am: yes , and that would chime with what i hear from many adoptive parents . i 'm just trying to be sensitive by saying we ca n't force people to divulge this information if they do n't want to . julie morgan am: no , but they need to be given the opportunity . kirsty williams am: yes , you 're right . we need to make sure that those parents feel that they can discuss this with school leaders and classroom teachers and explore how best those individual children can be supported , and how best we can support parents . because , again—and i 've said this a lot—after the quality of teaching , the second biggest impact on a child 's educational outcome will be parental engagement . so , being able to create an environment where adoptive parents feel very confident and able to talk about their children 's education is absolutely crucial if we 're going to get that parental engagement that we need for all of our children . julie morgan am: yes . thank you . going on to looked-after children , you say that the latest data on looked-after children 's attainment is extremely disappointing . can you expand on that and what effect the pdg has had in this result , or not had ? kirsty williams am: well , there 's no getting away from it : the way in which we currently measure outcomes for looked-after children , the results are not good enough . it 's a source of huge concern to me that we need to do better for those children . that 's why officials are engaging with the group that david melding is chairing , to make sure that education is integral to that group and it 's not lost sight of . there 's a discussion to be had about the cohort , whether it 's right and correct to compare looked-after children to the main cohort , or whether these statistics are useful in any way . sometimes as well—this is not to make an excuse because , as i 've said in my paper , it 's extremely disappointing , but sometimes it can be really difficult . because the cohort sometimes can be very , very small , it can swing the statistics to look perhaps more dramatic . julie morgan am: i think , generally , when you look at how looked-after children do— kirsty williams am: it 's not good . julie morgan am: —in a much wider evaluation , they 're not doing well , are they ? kirsty williams am: they 're not doing well . so , that 's why we 've got the review , the independent review , into the impact of the pdg in this area . this is why steve is doing the work that he is doing with the regional consortia because , clearly , at the moment , we are not doing what we need to do for that particular cohort of children . i would not make any bones about that at all . steve davies: i think we will not move away from the fact that these children need good gcses to gain employment , so we 'll continue to measure that . i think we need to look at more nuanced evaluations of the data at a lower level . so , for example , there were significant improvements in terms of pdg pupils who got three and four good gcses but did n't get past the threshold . that 's not to cover anything that is not working in terms of improvement , but we will look at the full range and still hold on to the fact that we have to look at a measure that relates to the likelihood of these children going on to further education and training . julie morgan am: and then just one more question about the exclusion rates amongst looked-after children . they are , i understand , over six times more likely to be given a fixed-term exclusion . so , is there any way of trying to address this ? is the pdg used for anything to do with exclusions ? kirsty williams am: we can look at exclusions . we also have to read across about how the whole system works , not just the pdg element of the system . so , we know , for example , that 66 per cent of looked-after learners have some additional learning need , so we ca n't just look at it in terms of this particular source of funding ; we have to look at it at a wider level of support . so , given that the majority of those children will have an aln , how can we make sure that our new aln legislation and our new aln regime meets the needs of these children ? so , i think what we 're looking at , again , is to say that it ca n't be just the job of the pdg . that 's there as an additional level of support , but actually , we 've got to get our aln right . unless we get our aln right , lots and lots of these children are not going to get the support that they need day in , day out via that system . we do know that sometimes , if we 're not addressing aln , then we 're not addressing behaviour issues that then potentially lead to an expulsion or potentially lead to non-attendance . so , we 've got to look at it in the round and recognise the connections between the sometimes quite complex needs that these children have within the school setting , that are not just as a result of the fact that they 're looked after ; they have other needs as well . steve davies: and investment in well-being— kirsty williams am: absolutely . steve is reminding me that that 's why well-being is part of the national mission—to address issues around supporting children with their well-being , which is a way of keeping them in school . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 're going to move on to schools challenge cymru now . llyr . llyr gruffydd am: thank you , chair . i was just wondering what your assessment is as to why some schools made progress and others did n't . kirsty williams am: i think we have to recognise that the 39 schools that were part of the programme were in very , very different places . so , i think one of the reasons why some schools did well was because their needs were not so complex , not so deep-seated and a certain level of intervention was enough to get them moving forward . some schools had very , very different needs . i think , talking to those involved in the programme , as always , we had some support advisers , challenge advisers working with those schools as part of the programme who were really , really excellent and really good , and were the right fit for the school and really drove the school onwards . we had other people employed in the programme who , perhaps , were less effective at driving change within those individual schools . so , what we have is a mixed bag of performance , again reflecting the very different challenges that those schools were facing , which led them to be chosen for the programme in the first place . llyr gruffydd am: yes , okay— steve davies: sorry . one of the other key additional factors was the extent to which there had been recent appointment of a new headteacher to that school just before the programme had started , because— kirsty williams am: leadership is all . llyr gruffydd am: and that was seen as a positive . steve davies: a positive , yes . i think one of the challenges is that sometimes the time it takes to make changes in leadership can be protracted and can be a barrier , sometimes , to the speed with which you can move . but , for a significant minority of the schools , there had been recent new appointments of headteachers , which was seen to be contributing , when you looked at the evaluation , to the speed with which they were able to engage . llyr gruffydd am: the reason i was asking was i wanted to understand what lessons the government is taking from that three-year investment , really , and how , maybe , you 're applying some of those lessons to your wider school improvement programme . i know professor mel ainscow identified six interconnected lessons , although i also note that the cabinet secretary did n't actually meet him for about six or seven months after coming into post . so , i 'm just wondering , can you give us confidence that , actually , you are serious about taking lessons from schools challenge cymru and applying them to the wider school improvement agenda ? kirsty williams am: well , absolutely , llyr . i do n't think anything should be read into when i met the individual concerned , because officials were meeting the individual concerned . individual challenge advisers were meeting with the regions , there was crossover work with the fsm agenda as well , and we are absolutely determined that best practice and those interventions that drove school improvement are embedded in the new support that we have via the regional consortia . it 's no coincidence that some of the best people that were employed by schools challenge cymru are now in the employment of our regional consortia . so , those people that were really good and really made a difference do n't work for the schools challenge cymru scheme any more , they work for our regional school improvement services . so , we 're absolutely determined . the things that we have learned , as always , are around leadership . it is absolutely key and crucial to have strong , capable school leadership as a driver for change within the system . we 're looking at systems and processes , so , actually , has a school got in place comprehensive systems of tracking and processes within the school ? we 're looking at the teacher quality—how can we ensure that we have got consistent strategies in place to drive up pedagogy and teacher quality in the classroom ? collaborative activity—again , absolutely key . a school can not see itself in isolation , and one of the key themes of the national mission is a self-improving system , so , collaborative working where schools are looking outside of each other , learning from best practice from other schools . so , there are lots of things that we 've drawn from the evaluation that you will see as key themes running through the national mission , and , as i said , it 's no coincidence that our really good people that were working in schools challenge cymru are now working for the regional consortia , being able to use that expertise not just for a very small proportion of our schools—but that expertise is available to all our schools . llyr gruffydd am: although estyn has told us , of course , that you ca n't expect the consortia to really carry on with that level of intervention and the same kind of intensity as was provided previously , so i 'm just wondering— kirsty williams am: in what way ? llyr gruffydd am: well , we were told by estyn in evidence that they did n't necessarily think that we could expect the consortia to provide the same type of tailored support , and certainly the level of intensity with the improvement boards and everything— kirsty williams am: well , the improvement boards are carrying on , so the improvement boards still exist , and i would—not that i want to argue with estyn— llyr gruffydd am: well , feel free ; this is your opportunity to do so if you— kirsty williams am: what i would say is that those improvement boards are staying on , and our schools categorisation system is used to identify the level of support . now , if you 're a red school , that gives you the entitlement to 25 days of support . that is more than you would have got under the schools challenge cymru programme , which would 've been 20 days . so , actually , moving to this system allows us to really focus in on those schools that need that intensive level of support . and what 's important for me , llyr , in this , okay , is that those schools are not necessarily just the schools that were in the programme . our system now of challenge , advice and support allows us to target resources across all of our schools and across all of our sectors , because you 'll be aware that schools challenge was only available to secondary schools , not available to primary schools . what our system now allows us to do , via the schools categorisation , is to identify schools , wherever they are in wales and whatever sector they 're in , to have that intensive level of support that they need to make improvements . llyr gruffydd am: so , you 're confident that that level of momentum is continuing through the consortia that was previously enjoyed by those particular schools , and you 're also confident that there is minimal risk that they 'll slip back to where they were , potentially , or at least part of the way back . kirsty williams am: well , actually , there are some really good examples of some of the schools challenge cymru schools making that sustained improvement now that the programme has come to an end . you only have to look at tredegar , where we have seen continual improvement and moving up through the categorisation system . that school is now a green school , so they 've been able to sustain their progress at the end of the programme . if we look at armando in eastern high school , again—gosh , my goodness me , we had lots of debates in a previous chamber about the future of eastern . there was one person that said that eastern had to be closed and that the only way forward for that particular school was for it to be shut down , but what we have seen is investment via schools challenge cymru , but ongoing , continual support from the regional consortium , and that school has come out of special measures . i pay absolute tribute to the staff of that school and that community that have done such a good job . so , i 'm absolutely convinced that where we 've got good leadership and good support , some of those schools are making continued , sustained progress even after the end of the programme . the challenge for me is for those schools that schools challenge cymru did n't work for , and we have n't seen that progress—how we can use our school improvement system now to continue to work with those schools to give them the level of support that they need to make a difference . so that 's what my focus is on now : a whole-system approach , rather than choosing 39 schools to get that level of support , when we recognise that there are schools everywhere , potentially , that need intervention , support and challenge , and in the primary sector as well . llyr gruffydd am: okay . so , you would n't agree with a number of—well , the near-unanimous evidence that we 've had from academics , some of whom are government advisers from consortia et cetera , that this kind of programme such as schools challenge cymru would probably need about five years to really have the impact that it was intended to have . kirsty williams am: what i would say is that , from my understanding , from the outset , it was a time-limited programme . the schools were aware of that . there were no surprises that it was supposed to be a time-limited programme . evidence from across the uk showed that school challenge programmes have differed in time . so , for instance , manchester 's challenge was a three-year programme . so , there 's no consensus about how many years you need to run a programme for . the previous minister was quite clear about the time-limited nature of the programme . that 's not to say it was the wrong decision , because what 's important , and an ongoing legacy of the programme , was the investment in regional school improvement capacity , because at the time our school improvement services and the regions were young , in their infancy . the ability of individual local authorities to make a difference , with so many local authorities in an estyn categorisation , was limited , so one of the ongoing legacies of the programme is that significant investment of over £10 million in the capacity of the regions to be able to continue this support and the school improvement work . llyr gruffydd am: so , how disappointed were you that the money for schools challenge cymru went back into reserves and did n't stay in your envelope , as you described it earlier ? i presume you made a pitch for it . did you make a case for that money to stay within your department ? kirsty williams am: llyr , we are constantly having discussions with the minister for finance around support for the education budget . the minister for finance was quite clear that it was a time-limited programme . we were able to secure investment from the finance minister to be able to secure the programme and run it and phase it out to make sure there was transition support , so as we moved from the schools challenge programme into the regional consortia , there were resources to do that . llyr gruffydd am: did you feel there was a case to be made to add to the consortia 's resources and be able to continue that level of support that schools had previously had ? kirsty williams am: well , we did make resources available to the regional consortia to do that . as i say , from the outset , the previous minister was very clear it was a time-limited programme . certainly the schools that i talk to— . and i want to be absolutely clear : i have visited many , many schools challenge cymru schools . i have used that opportunity to talk to them about—heolddu being one of them , hefin , which we went to visit , and willows , for instance . i 'm going to one this afternoon—i 'm going to st illtyd 's this afternoon , and i always take— . i 've been to caergybi in anglesey . i always take the opportunity to speak to those teachers about their experience of the programme and to understand and assure myself that they are getting ongoing support that they see as an appropriate level for them . i think i 've done 19 of the schools . lynne neagle am: hefin on this . hefin david am: with regard to it being a time-limited programme , the previous minister was clear that it was a time-limited programme , but it was n't quite as time-limited as you 've decided to be . is that fair to say ? kirsty williams am: no , it was supposed to be a three-year programme at the most . so , there 's no differential between when i decided it was time-limited and the expectations— hefin david am: so the time limit was the same that the previous minister put on it . kirsty williams am: yes . no change . llyr gruffydd am: but mel ainscow did tell us that there was a fade out in that third year—not that people were giving up , do n't get me wrong , but clearly there was n't that commitment coming from government because the decision had been made , and people felt that it was just fizzling out a little bit , and that impacted on the momentum . kirsty williams am: i would n't characterise it as that . i think there certainly was a transition phase when we knew that the programme was moving and schools were moving into a different level of support , but i certainly would n't describe it as a fading out—not at all . as i said , we were aware that the programme was transitioning and we were determined to get that right for those individual schools , and to learn the lessons and , crucially , to be able to apply those lessons right across the board . steve davies: i can see where the perception would come if a programme director like mel was managing the programme right to the end of the three years exactly the same , and it falls off—not a cliff , but it falls off , then the readiness for schools and the readiness in the system to hand over—so part of the shift of focus was that working as a government with the programme in those schools to working with the programme , those schools and the region . so , i think , inevitably , one party might see it as a decrease in terms of emphasis on their work , but it was necessary for the transition . llyr gruffydd am: but does that cast a bit of a shadow over the transition , then—that one key player within that process felt as such , or are you confident that that was managed well and effectively ? kirsty williams am: i think it was managed well , and we were very clear to recognise success where success has been achieved , but not to gloss over where the programme had not made an impact , because that would n't be good for anybody . there was a formal event to close the programme , which gave everybody an opportunity to get together , to be formally thanked , and for , as i said , congratulations to be given to those people who had really made a difference and , crucially , key staff transferred over into the regional consortia . so , for those individuals , they were able to continue their work , but just be able to apply that work on a regional basis rather than just in an individual school . so , i do n't see that there was any fading out , but there was a transition into a new system , and many of those key personnel transitioned into the system with us . lynne neagle am: have you got any figures for the numbers of staff who went from the programme into the consortia ? kirsty williams am: not off the top of my head , but i can let you know . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got darren first , then mark . kirsty williams am: and can i just say , i met with some of them ? i met with a selection of those people who had been involved in the programme to get their feedback on what they felt had gone right , and what they did n't feel had gone right in the programme . so , i took the time not just to meet the figurehead of the programme , but actually to meet the people who were doing the work in the individual schools . sorry . darren millar am: yes , i just wanted to ask you , you mentioned the figurehead there , i assume by 'the figurehead ' you mean professor ainscow . and you 've mentioned as well that you said you wanted to learn lessons from schools challenge cymru , but he told us that nobody had been in touch with him since march of last year in order to have any sort of follow-up engagement , or to have a dialogue about his perspective on what worked , what did n't work , why there were failures in some areas and why there were successes in others . why have n't you sought that level of engagement with the person who was responsible for running the programme ? kirsty williams am: i 've had that conversation with mr ainscow . we had the evaluation of the programme . we 've spoken to the people who were actually involved in running the programme on a daily basis in individual schools . we 've spoken to the regional consortia . we 've spoken to local education authorities . we 've spoken to a wide variety of people to get their insight into the lessons learned , what was valuable and what was not valuable . so , a wide variety of people have been involved in those conversations . darren millar am: but you 've hardly engaged with mr ainscow—with professor ainscow himself . steve davies: i would actually say that i have had meetings— darren millar am: since march of last year . steve davies: yes , since march of last year . i have n't got the exact dates for you . i 've had discussions with mel ainscow , and my line manager at the time , owen evans , also had meetings and discussions . darren millar am: so , when he told us , 'since last march , i literally have had no contact at all with anybody from welsh government ' , he was telling porky pies , was he ? steve davies: that 's not my recollection . i 'll go back and check for you . lynne neagle am: if you could check and let us know , that would be good . mark . kirsty williams am: yes , well , i just talked about the celebration event to formally mark the end of the programme . my understanding was that it was july of last year , so people were engaged in that . and this idea that somebody has been ignored or frozen out is not how i see or how i regard that situation . lynne neagle am: mark . mark reckless am: i have to say , with professor ainscow my impression was he took great , great pride in the work that he 'd done with schools challenge cymru , and i think he really enjoyed the engagement , the work and the positive relations with the welsh government . but i think there was just a degree of disappointment , perhaps , that at least he did n't feel that he 'd been interrogated as much as he might have been about the lessons learned from the programme , and how perhaps to entrench those as well as possible with the regional consortia . i just wonder , cabinet secretary , if you could invite the professor in , perhaps to have a further debrief with you and take account of some of his thoughts and suggestions for what might help in this area . kirsty williams am: well , mark , as i said , i just do n't think it should be right to characterise this as a failure to engage with a single individual . mark reckless am: i 'm not characterising it that way , cabinet secretary . kirsty williams am: as i said , i met with him , steve has met with him , owen evans has met with him , my special policy adviser has met with him and had discussions . so , there has been an ongoing dialogue . but , mark , i hope that i have demonstrated since i took on this job that i am willing to work with a wide variety of people and to tap into their expertise if it can help me to deliver on the national mission . and if the advice to me is that we have n't sufficiently learnt the lessons , then i 'll gladly have another conversation . what i 'm saying to you—and i 'm absolutely confident—is that we have learnt the lessons , we are taking that work and the good practice forward , and we have done that with conversations with a wide variety of people who had a view on this , from individual schools that were involved in the programme , individual people who were working in those schools , local education authorities , some of which have been very scathing about the programme , i should say , regional consortia— . so , the lessons , i am confident , have been learnt . mark reckless am: i 'm glad to hear that , cabinet secretary , but i still say that , listening to professor ainscow 's evidence , there was a perception , at least from him individually , that the programme should not be seen to be a failure , but a desire that the lessons should be learnt and a feeling or exception , at least on his part , that there was more that he still had to contribute to the process . and just to take one particular example , i think he referred to the schools challenge cymru advisers being very successful in bringing in people who might not otherwise have contributed to this , and the regional consortia have had greater challenges in recruiting people , perhaps in some areas , of the same high standard of some particular individuals , but also from a wide range of different areas that the schools challenge cymru do , and that there could be more to learn in that area as to how to support real excellence and a greater diversity of recruitment for those people . is that something you could perhaps draw on his thoughts further about ? because i think he does feel that he has more to say to welsh government to help in this area . kirsty williams am: firstly , can i say that i have never described the programme as a failure ? i would understand , as someone who has put so much personal investment into the brand of schools challenges , that he would not want anybody to characterise that particular approach to school improvement as a failure . and i want to be absolutely clear that i have never described the programme as a failure , and i want to reassure mr ainscow of that . as i 've said , gosh , my goodness me , if you saw my e-mail inbox and you saw the letters that come in , people are never shy in coming forward to give me advice on what i need to do , what i need to do next , what i 'm doing right , what i 'm doing wrong , and , you know , our doors are always open to listen to people who have interesting things to say about how we can deliver our educational mission . so , people are n't slow in coming forward , i can assure you , with advice . lynne neagle am: julie . julie morgan am: just very quickly . i 'm sure the minister is aware that cardiff put extra funds of its own in to continue schools challenge cymru advisers . so , obviously , they appreciated the value of the scheme , but it does query whether it should have gone on longer . kirsty williams am: julie , i think , to be fair , there are some people who think the scheme was absolutely fantastic . i 've had feedback from people who did n't think the scheme was helpful at all—in fact , they felt it was a hindrance . i 'm very much of the view that the scheme worked really well for some schools in some areas and had less impact in some areas . there is a mixed picture . what 's important to me is that we understand what it was that led those schools to make those big changes , how we can—like mark talked about , the expertise—how we can keep that expertise in the system , and how we can apply the lessons to all schools . lynne neagle am: the next questions , and the final questions , are from john . so , we 're going to need succinct questions and succinct answers . john griffiths am: some questions on regional consortia , cabinet secretary , and , first of all , the role that you believe they should play and how schools use pdg . kirsty williams am: well , it 's an absolute— . it 's one of the things that i have been very clear to the regional consortia that i expect their challenge and support advisers to be asking schools about . so , one of the conversations that they need to have when they are in schools is exploring , with that school , how they are using their pdg , and how they 're demonstrating an impact for those resources . so , it 's a fundamental role for the challenge and support advisers in the regional consortia in their school improvement work . it 's crucial . john griffiths am: that sort of brings to mind some of the research that 's been done on the role of the challenge advisers , cabinet secretary , which suggested that they 're not actually challenging schools in that way , and that there 's very little evidence of schools changing their decisions on the use of pdg as a result of any challenge from those challenge advisers . so , how would you respond to those findings ? kirsty williams am: well , as i said , in my scrutiny of the role and success of our regional consortia , i specifically asked them about free-school-meal performance and the use of pdg within their particular region . i think there is increasing evidence to suggest that good use is being made of that resource , and i think that is being fed back into us . estyn tell us that it 's one of the areas of school expenditure that is closely linked to research and an evidence base . but , clearly , there is more to do , and that 's why we have appointed the new regional advisers for pdg going forward , because we think there can be improvements in how this agenda can be supported at a regional level . john griffiths am: okay . so , you would recognise the findings from that research . kirsty williams am: yes . there 's always more that we can do , and we are strengthening that role by the appointment of the new regional pdg advisers , so that individual school challenge advisers know what they should be looking for , know what they should be doing , and there is a regional approach to good practice . john griffiths am: okay . could you tell the committee , cabinet secretary , how effective you believe the relationship was between the schools challenge cymru programme and the regional consortia 's school improvement functions , and to what extent it varied by region ? kirsty williams am: i think it 's fair to say that , on occasion , i have received feedback that there was a conflict between what was going on at an individual school under the school improvement programme and whether , then , they welcomed support from the regional consortia as part of that . so , in some cases , if we 're being absolutely honest , there could sometimes be tensions between the two , but in most cases , the relationship was very , very positive and there was continuous feedback between the work going on in the schools under the programme and the regional consortia challenge advisers . but i 'm going to be blunt and honest with people—in some cases , it has been reported to me—it 's only anecdotal evidence ; i have n't got hard and fast evidence—that there sometimes was a conflict : 'we 're a school challenge school so we do n't need to participate or listen to any advice that 's coming from the regional consortia . ' or , a local education authority said to me , 'we felt that we could n't get involved in that school anymore because it was part of a different programme . ' those were isolated incidents , and , as i said , it 's only anecdotal feedback . in most cases , the relationship was a very positive one . steve davies: just very quickly , i think that , across the board , it was more complex in the beginning , getting— [ inaudible. ] . but when the programme itself recognised that they needed to work with the regions , and the regions needed to work with them—and i think mel ainscow in his evidence referred to this—it strengthened after some early challenges . i think mel ainscow was working in a number of regions—i ca n't remember which ones—so he 's established relationships— [ interruption . ] sorry ? kirsty williams am: central south . steve davies: central south . he has already been working in that , so i think it possibly had a stronger springboard in terms of the early working . kirsty williams am: because he already had relationships that he had already developed in that particular region . as always , with many of these things , it 's about individuals and relationships . john griffiths am: okay . finally from me , cabinet secretary : in 2015-16 , estyn reported on regional consortia not sufficiently focusing on particular groups of pupils and tracking their outcomes—for example , vulnerable pupils . i just wonder what you are able to tell us in terms of to what extent there has been necessary progress since 2015-16 . kirsty williams am: okay . well , i think it 's important to recognise that all four consortia underwent monitoring visits in the autumn of last year , of 2017 , which were n't reflected in the estyn annual report for 2015-16. estyn , through these 2017 inspections , have said that three out of the four regional consortia are making strong progress in their particular work , and we are continuing , as welsh government , to work with the other regional consortia to address the findings of the estyn report . john griffiths am: and that would include these particular issues . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . the committee probably has n't had an opportunity to see , but , only this morning , estyn has released a report on more able and talented , and has positive things to say in the field of more able and talented , which was being asked about earlier by members—you know , evidence of improved working and support in that particular arena . but , again , we need to ensure a consistency across all the regions , and that the findings of estyn 's most recent reports into regional performance are followed through . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . as we 've got a couple of minutes left , if i can just jump back to the issue of practical uses of the pdg—because it 's the only thing we have n't really covered and it would be good to get on the record—can i ask to what extent you 'd like to see the pdg used to track the progress of eligible pupils ? and the committee 's heard that there are several different tracking systems and tools used by schools . to what extent is that an issue to do with what the welsh government is promoting ? or is it down to consortia or individual schools ? and do you think there needs to be a more centralised push on how the tracking is undertaken ? kirsty williams am: firstly , can i say it 's absolutely crucial that we track performance , absolutely crucial ? that 's the bedrock . we do n't dictate to individual schools the nature of the system that they should employ in their school . there are a number of different programmes that allow schools to do this , but we are absolutely clear , and best practice and evidence shows us , that individual pupil tracking is key and crucial . and , as i said in the beginning , where we were n't tracking pupils at all , initial investment in pdg was used to establish these systems within schools . again , one of the outcomes from the schools challenge review , and one of the lessons learnt , was , again , the importance of individual tracking of pupils throughout their school career . but we do n't dictate a single system . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . kirsty williams am: but the principle is a really important one . lynne neagle am: okay , and you do n't think there 's more scope to look at what the best system is that can be recommended to schools . kirsty williams am: that 's not something we 're actively looking at . i am actively looking at developing a welsh toolkit around good practice , evidence base and research . at the moment we use the sutton trust toolkit , which is fine and excellent , but we are having active discussions about whether we 're in a position , now , to look at developing a suite of a welsh toolkit to support this agenda , and that 's under active consideration . lynne neagle am: okay . well , we 've reached the end of our session . can i thank the cabinet secretary and the officials for attending and for answering such a wide range of questions ? as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you again for coming . kirsty williams am: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: thank you . okay . item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the minister for children and social care on families first funding . paper to note 2 is a letter from the cabinet secretary for education , updating us on the supply teacher issue . paper to note 3—another letter from the cabinet secretary for education , providing further information following our meeting on 15 february . paper to note 4 is a letter from the wjec on availability of textbooks . paper to note 5—a letter from qualifications wales , also on availability of textbooks . and paper to note 6 is a letter from the cabinet secretary for education to the children 's commissioner for wales , following up on the dialogue that they 've been having about our inquiry . are members happy to note those ? thank you . item 4 , then , is for me to propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

the most awareness around pdg is around free school meals , and there is less awareness around the availability of pdg to support looked-after children . in the nature of the cohort , there are more children subject to free school meals than are subject to being looked after . the thinking behind that at the time was around a greater strategic deployment of that resource and to try and drive a greater impact than how it was being used previously , so the looked-after pdg is held at a regional level .

what does the group think of the eas consortium 's approach to using the looked-after and adopted pdg as part of a broader approach targeted at vulnerable learners ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to this morning 's children , young people and education committee . we 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members who are present if they wish to declare any interests ? okay , thank you . item 2 this morning is our final evidence session for our inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams am , cabinet secretary for education ; steve davies , director of the education directorate ; and ruth conway , deputy director , support for learners division . welcome to all of you , and thank you for your attendance and also for the paper that you 've provided in advance . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions , and the first questions are from llyr gruffydd . llyr gruffydd am: bore da . i just want to start by asking some questions around the targeting of the pupil development grant because , clearly , we 've had a lot of evidence around this apparent blurring of eligibility to an extent . i 'm just wondering how comfortable you are that the money is being targeted appropriately because , clearly , it 's being targeted more widely than just those eligible for free school meals , from some of the evidence we 've had , but also that it seems to be predominantly focused on low-attaining frees—pupils who are eligible for free school meals . kirsty williams am: thank you , llyr . i think it 's important to be absolutely clear that when it comes to individual interventions , those individual interventions should only be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals . but in some cases , schools may use their pdg funding to provide a universal intervention , but we would want to—in challenge advisers ' discussions in schools—we 'd want to have evidence that that universal intervention would have a disproportionate effect on the outcomes for children on free school meals . so , for instance , if i give you an example in your own region , llyr : at brynteg county primary school in wrexham , if you look at that primary school in wrexham , their results for free-school-meal children at the end of their primary school period in school are equivalent to their non-free-school-meal counterparts . so , there is no differentiation in those results . one of the things that they 've used their pdg for is to really focus on the concept of growth mindset in school . so , that 's a universal thing that they 've trained all the teachers in , but what we know is that that has a disproportionate effect on those children who are on free school meals . so , if you 're familiar with the concept of a growth mindset , it 's about really challenging learners to think that , ' i can do things . if sometimes i fail , i pick myself up , i 'm more resilient . ' now , that has been , as i said , trained to all the teachers in the school—it 's an ethos for the whole school—but we have seen that the impact on the free-school-meal children has been even greater , and now they 're at the same level . so , that 's the important distinction . individual intervention per child has to be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals , but sometimes a school will employ a whole-school approach to train their staff , for instance , and that , then , has to demonstrate it has a disproportionate effect on free school meals . so , growth mindset ; it may be attachment disorder training for staff , for instance , where we know it 's of benefit to everybody , but will have particular benefits for that cohort of students . with regard to more able and talented , you know , llyr , that this is an area of concern for me , generally , within the welsh education system ; that we 've not been particularly good at identifying , supporting and driving attainment for those children . i 'm absolutely clear that pdg needs to be used for those children who are eligible to drive potential , whatever the potential of that child is , including more able and talented . and again , i 'll give you an example that has been seen as good practice in pembrokeshire : a window on the world bus , again paid for by schools . i do n't know if you 're aware of it . llyr gruffydd am: we 've heard about that . kirsty williams am: oh , you 've heard about it ; well , it 's a really good example the window on the world . and , again , that 's very much targeted at raising aspirations and giving children who are more able and talented , who are eligible for pdg , those experiences , and to really push them . so , yes , i 'm absolutely clear that pdg should n't just be seen to be getting individuals to the average . for those children who are more able and talented , it should be used to support them— llyr gruffydd am: and we all share those aspirations , i 'm sure , and you pointed to examples of good practice , but of course , it 's not universal , is it , so what i 'm asking is : do you think that the guidance is sufficient as it is ? do you think that there 's a great enough awareness of how the pdg should be used at the coalface ? and also , are you confident that consortia and others have the measures in place to be able to demonstrate that it is being used properly ? kirsty williams am: i think , if we look at what estyn has said about pdg , it does actually recognise that the pdg is being used to push more able and talented children , but as always with the system , llyr , it 's whether we can be sure that that is strategic and that it 's happening across all of our schools . so , you're— llyr gruffydd am: but not just in relation to more able and talented , i 'm referring to the eligibility and the targeting . kirsty williams am: oh , the eligibility . you 'll be aware that , on the advice of sir alasdair , we have employed and appointed new pdg regional advisers , and i think their role is going to be absolutely crucial in spreading that good practice across the region , whether that 's use of pdg for more able and talented , or ensuring that pdg is used in the appropriate way . so , that 's there to provide strategic overall advice . and obviously , we have been very clear with regional challenge advisers , in the relationship and the conversations they 're having with individual schools , that they 're really challenging their schools about the use of pdg , not just in terms of targeting , but the programmes , what the money is being spent on , whether there is an evidence base for that and whether we are clear on impact . so , i think the new regional advisers are going to be crucial in enabling us to ensure more consistent practice across the regions . llyr gruffydd am: so , are you content that eligibility for free school meals is the best measure , really , of identifying which pupils to target ? kirsty williams am: llyr , in the absence of anything better . i 'll be the first person to say that maybe it 's not as absolutely focused , but in the absence of anything different to identify a proxy for need , i think it 's probably the best that we 've got at present . and we will continue to have discussions with local government about whether there are different ways . we have to be mindful . some of the policy levers in this area are out of my hands , so if we look at the roll-out of universal credit , for instance , we 've got officials working very hard at the moment to try and understand what universal credit is going to mean and where we are going to be able to identify relative need , going forward . we have n't had any additional resource as a result of this , but we 're very mindful that , potentially , this has an impact , going forward . and , officials are working all of the time , i must say , in conjunction with the department in england , to understand their thinking in this area so that we are in a position to make some decisions about what a notional eligibility for free school meals will look like going forward , but before i make any decisions , i want to assure everybody that there will be a full public consultation on that . llyr gruffydd am: okay . finally for now , on this issue of once a year , in january , if you 're eligible for free school meals , then you 're in that group for that year . we 've had some quite strong evidence about how difficult that makes longer term planning for a number of schools and we 've also been pointed in the direction of what 's happened in england with the ever 6 , and i 'm just wondering whether you 're giving any thought to maybe changing that a little bit . kirsty williams am: well , we 're certainly giving thought to flexibility . in conversations with alasdair , who is our independent adviser on this agenda , and individual schools , we 're actively giving thought to greater flexibility and maybe longer term projections , so that schools know , for a number of years ahead , what their allocation will be . there are advantages to that system , because you could give that flexibility , you could give that long-term approach , but then , how do you make that responsive if a school suddenly has more children ? we do know that , actually , the number of free-school-meal pupils is dropping . but there can be changes , you know , regional working in areas of north wales in tourism , or maybe in other areas at christmas time , parents are able to get a period of work . so , how can we create a more flexible system ? we 're actively looking at that at the moment . i would n't use it as an ever 6 concept , but as an 'ever 2 ' concept . we have looked at ever 6 , and i 'm going to be absolutely blunt with you : to introduce an ever 6 concept for wales would mean in the region of identifying an additional £40 million . i 'm going to be absolutely straight and blunt with you : we 're not in a position at the moment to be able to identify an additional £40 million to introduce an ever 6. but issues around flexibility , certainly , are actively under consideration . in fact , we 'll be having a discussion later on today about decisions , going forward , for the next two years . llyr gruffydd am: thank you . lynne neagle am: darren on this . darren millar am: it 's just a very brief point in response to the £40 million price ticket that you just put on that . that 's , of course , assuming that you maintain the current level of pdg , yes ? so , if you reduced the level of pdg slightly , but made it available to more individuals , if you like , via allocating it in a different way , then that £40 million price ticket would n't be there , would it ? kirsty williams am: i was asked a question about had i ever considered an ever 6. we have looked at that , we 've priced that up . i have to make decisions in the envelope of resources that are available to me . we could , indeed , change the way in which we allocate pdg money , but we have to do it within the envelope that is available to me , over £90 million . that 's a significant level of investment , but , of course , as always , darren , we could cut the amount per pupil , but that might have quite challenging swings in allocations . what we have done—because what i am clear on is that there was evidence to suggest that in the secondary sector , a great deal of pdg was being focused on years 10 and 11 , especially year 11 , in catch-up provision , and you 'll be aware , because we 've said this in evidence to the committee in the papers , we 've set a challenge to secondary schools to say , 'actually , the majority of your pdg allocation has to be used in key stage 3 . ' now , we have to balance the needs , the moral hazard of turning round to children in years 10 and 11 and saying , 'we're not going to provide catch-up opportunities for you , ' because , clearly , those children need that support . but the evidence and the advice that we 're receiving is : actually , strong focus on early years , primary and key stage 3 , if we get that right , should negate the need for spending money on catch-up at years 10 and 11. that 's why we , in our advice to local authorities and schools , say that we want to see evidence that they 're spending this money earlier on in a child 's career , rather than just a scramble at year 11 to say , 'right , we 've got to get you through your exams . ' darren millar am: okay , but have you actively considered , then , reducing the level you have ? kirsty williams am: we've— ruth conway: sorry—i was just going to say that one of the things is looking at the scope of the definition , and i think it 's about being more flexible with the definition , rather than reducing the amount per head . darren millar am: okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you . if we can go on , then , to talk about some of the practical uses of the pdg , you write in your written paper that 'the majority of schools are making well thought out and appropriate decisions ' on how to use it . but estyn reported that only two thirds of primary and secondary schools make effective use of the pdg . given that we 've had it now for six years , would you not have expected there to be a higher level of schools actually making good use of that funding ? kirsty williams am: well , to flip it on its head , the vast majority of schools , as identified by estyn , are using this money to good effect . so , that 's the way i like to see it—that the vast majority of schools are doing well . what estyn has also indicated is the intrinsic link here to leadership within individual schools , and as you 'll be aware , leadership , improving capacity in leadership and developing leadership talent in the welsh education system is a key priority for me in our national mission . of course , that 's being developed in a different work stream . i think what 's fair to say is that the use of pdg is evolving over time . i think we are seeing , increasingly , more and more schools understanding how best to deploy that money for best effect for students . so , if we 're honest , when pdg first started , i think , in some schools it was spent on investing in tracking of children , because they 'd never thought about tracking these children , they did n't have systems in place to look at the performance of these children , and to have a system in place . so we 've moved now from spending money on the infrastructure around support for fsm children into actual inputs in terms of teaching and learning . we 're also seeing from estyn that , actually , in terms of money following the evidence of what we know works , estyn says that pdg is probably the best example of schools following tried and tested and evidence-based interventions to deploy the money . but clearly we want all of this money to be deployed as well as it can be , and again we come back to the decision i 've made to appoint regional pdg advisers so that we can get that better consistency of approach . we are , in the discussions that i have with the regional consortia about how they challenge individual schools on usage , looking for very clear evidence of schools using the sutton trust toolkit , and we could have a discussion about whether that 's the right thing , because that 's on my mind too . but we want to see schools demonstrating their evidence base , and if they 're not , if a school is n't doing that , okay , so demonstrate to us why you 've made those decisions and , crucially , what are you doing as the school to judge whether that decision is actually making a difference for your individual pupils . so , if you 're moving away from tried and tested interventions , what we know works , if you 're doing something different with your money , okay , you need to justify that and you need to explain how you 're going to demonstrate impact . but i think what we 're seeing is increasing good practice in this area as the pdg develops and as our understanding of our school-to-school working in our self-improving school system also develops . i think we 're seeing better usage of the money year on year . lynne neagle am: thank you . llyr on this . llyr gruffydd am: you mentioned some schools will be moving from the tried-and-tested interventions , really , and i 'm just wondering to what extent that evolution of use of pdg is being driven by cuts to core funding . kirsty williams am: no , i do n't think it 's being driven by cuts to core funding . i think there has been— . one of the biggest impacts of pdg has not been—well , i suppose it is the money in itself , because the money has concentrated the minds , has n't it ? so , one of the most important things that pdg has done is highlight the importance of this agenda within schools , and really raise this up in the thinking of leadership and senior management teams in our schools , and has driven a focus on scrutiny and accountability in the systems that are working with our schools . i think the changing use of pdg reflects the journeys that schools have been on , some of them from a very low base where this was not a priority for them , to better understanding , and as research and as intelligence grows over time in this area , both in wales and outside of wales , schools are increasingly learning to use that evidence to tailor approaches in their schools . llyr gruffydd am: so you would n't accept at all that some of this money 's being used to paper over some funding cracks from elsewhere . because the unions and some others have told us that , whether we like it or not , there is some of that going on . kirsty williams am: as i said , llyr , we 're very clear about the usage that this money can be spent on in terms of individuals or universal application within schools , and that forms an important part of the checks and balances that we have in our system . can we continue to improve , and ensure that more and more of our schools are employing best practice ? yes , we can , and as i 've said , we 've taken steps to put in place the infrastructure to support that . lynne neagle am: thank you . mark 's questions are next . mark reckless am: cabinet secretary , how would you assess the impact of pdg on attendance and hopefully subsequent engagement with education from children who have free school meals ? kirsty williams am: i think what 's important to note is that , as estyn have themselves said , over the period of the last inspection report , we have seen improvements in attendance , but i do think we need to , again , look at how pdg can support this particular agenda . and as always in the welsh education system , there are some excellent examples of how schools use the money to address this . ysgol y preseli in pembrokeshire is a very good example of how they 've deployed their money . forgive me ; i ca n't off the top of my head remember the name of the primary school i visited , again in north wales , where the school has proactively used this money , and they actually send teaching assistants out of school in the morning before the start of the school day , and they actually have a walking bus . they call at homes for children , and they walk the children to the breakfast club . so , they 're proactively going out into the community and making sure that those children are in the classrooms , because the teacher said , 'we recognised we had a problem with attendance . we tried a variety of means of improving that , but in the end we have taken this quite bold step—we actually send the staff out and they create that walking bus , and they walk the children into school ' . they say that they know that , for some of those children , because of the difficult circumstances they and their families are living in , they probably would n't be in school if it was n't for that proactive approach . so , we 're looking again at what more we can do to support this particular agenda in terms of improving attendance , because although , again , there are examples of good practice , there is still a gap between the attendance of free-school-meal pupils and non-free-school-meal pupils . and , of course , we can have the best curriculum in the world with really high-quality teaching , but unless the children are in the classes then we 're not going to make the difference for them . whilst that differential exists , then it 's going to be hard to close the attainment gap for those children . mark reckless am: i was actually quite shocked just reading in advance of this meeting that the proportion attending 95 per cent or more , who have pretty full attendance , was only 35 per cent for free-school-meal children at level 4 , compared to 60 per cent for non-free-school-meal pupils . it still is an extraordinary difference . my colleague here showed me , i think , last week , a graph showing the link between attendance and attainment , in particular . when people were absent , a lot of the— . as i 'm sure you 're aware , there 's a huge connection . what more can pdg do to deal with it ? in the example you give i can see how a school with an awful lot of free-school-meal children could do that , but a lot of the free-school-meal children are actually in schools that do n't have that high a proportion of free school meals , where it would be much more challenging to bring in that type of initiative . kirsty williams am: yes , indeed , and i think it gets more challenging the older the children get . i think it 's more difficult to find interventions that are successful higher up , so key stage 4. so , you can do a walking bus with little ones , ca n't you , but i do n't suppose your average 15 or 16-year-old is going to take very kindly to that . so , you do need a different approach to that . but again , we see in ysgol y preseli the employment of staff to directly work with families of older children to reinforce the messages around , as you quite rightly say , the linkage between attendance and attainment , and really work with individual families to understand the barriers to attendance : what 's going on in the family that is preventing that child from going to school , and what more can the school do to address those situations . but you 're absolutely right ; there is more that we need to do to address this particular agenda of attainment . i do n't know if there 's anything extra you wanted to add , steve . steve davies: there is also another very good example—and i take what you say about where there are small numbers—but in our secondary schools where there are significant numbers , they 're investing pdg in resources like a school nurse and a school counsellor , not just to work with the children but link to other agencies on whom the children and the families are dependent to support them in terms of working with schools . so , it 's something , particularly in our most challenging areas , where it can not just be delivered within the school . so , good use of that resource is being made to employ people to support them in those wider areas . mark reckless am: thank you . to what extent is pdg also used to seek to reduce the higher rates of exclusion for children entitled to free school meals ? kirsty williams am: so , if we looked at permanent exclusions , there is n't a differential , but if we look at temporary exclusions , there we see there is a disproportionate number of children on free school meals that are subject to those exclusions . again , i think what schools employing best practice understand is that you need a multi-agency approach to supporting that particular child . some of those exclusions can be as a result of the need to address other issues going on in a child 's life . so , this is where we come back to the committee 's work , for instance , on mental health and support for children , support for behaviour in school . so , again , it 's a multi-agency approach that i think we need , and , in our good schools , our really , really good schools , there 's a recognition of that need to have a whole team around a child to support that child in education . with eotas , we made some changes last year regarding pdg for eotas . so , for those children who do find themselves in education other than at school , we are providing additional support that previously was not available . mark reckless am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . we 're going to move on now to talk about the impact of pdg on attainment . hefin david has got some questions . hefin david am: it appears that the attainment gap at 2017 has actually widened , in spite of pdg levels . is that correct ? kirsty williams am: yes . so , if you look at it—with the usual caveats about whether you can make direct comparisons on level 2 plus between the exams the year before and the exams that we had last summer—on the face of it , the gap has increased . i think what 's important to recognise , hefin , is a direction of travel . i 'm sure we all want to , because i want to , have a discussion about why children on free school meals were less resilient in the exam system last year . but , if we look at the period that we have been employing pdg , over that period , we have seen a narrowing of the gap . i think what 's quite stark , if we think about it— . so , if we look at where we started from : in 2009 , one in five children on free school meals got level 2 plus—one in five—by 2016 , we had got that down to one in three . obviously , there 's still a way to go , but , sir alasdair , who knows about these things , says that that is a significant improvement . last year , we got some challenges . we need to understand why that happened , but i do think it's— hefin david am: why , do you think ? kirsty williams am: why , do i think ? what i do think is there is no one answer . there is no one answer to this . i think we could look at and we can have discussions around the move from btec to science gcses . i think we have supplied figures to the committee about the significant change in the number of children on free school meals who were n't doing a single science gcse and are now doing science gcses . we can look at the unintended consequences of literature . again , we 've supplied figures . where children have done language and literature , whether that be through the medium of english or through the medium of welsh , there is more resilience . so , it 's that exposure to literacy in all its forms that i think could potentially make a difference . so , i think there 's no one answer to why free-school-meal children were not so resilient last year . we continue to have discussions with qualifications wales to get a better understanding of this . at my next ministerial policy board , in may , we 'll be doing a deep dive into this particular subject . hefin david am: so , to what extent would exam boards be responsible for lack of grade stability ? kirsty williams am: it could be one of the contributory factors . what i think is important is that there is no one , single reason why there seems to be less resilience in this cohort of children . hefin david am: will you be speaking to the exam boards about this and raising concerns ? kirsty williams am: i have written to qualifications wales , we 've had discussions about it , but i 've asked them to formally submit evidence ahead of my policy board for may , where , as i said , we will be doing a formal , deep-dive discussion across the department about these issues . but , again , hefin , what we 've got to be clear on is—while we look at overall factors , you know , our overall national statistic—we did see some schools last year whose fsm performance was better than it had been the year before . so , what was it in those schools that enabled those children to do really well , whereas , in other schools , the performance was different ? even in individual cities , you can see a huge variety of performance . so , take cardiff and swansea , our two biggest cities . you 've got schools in those cities with comparative levels of free school meals . so , you could have really high-performing schools with a very small number of the cohort on free school meals . the difference between those performances in a single city—so , that 's the same local education authority and the same regional consortium—you can see a massive change . there 's one school i can talk to : their free-school-meal performance is 88 per cent . a similar school in the same city with the same proportion of children on free school meals , their performance is down in the 20 per cents . so , i think what 's important is that we ca n't draw broad-brush conclusions . for me , the challenge is to go into individual schools and understand what was happening in that particular school that ensured that their children did really well . we 've got one school in swansea , their fsm performance at gcse level 2 outperforms non-fsm pupils . hefin david am: but we still need to rely on the trends from a distance . if we take your argument that 2017 was an unusual year and the trends up to 2016 were positive , in a few years ' time , when we will be looking back in two years ' time , how are we going to measure this progress , say , in 2019 ? what are we likely to see and what methods are you going to use to measure progress that way ? kirsty williams am: well , you 'll be aware that we are moving away from level 2 plus as a performance measure anyway because of the— hefin david am: so , what performance measures will you use ? kirsty williams am: so , for the lack of sophistication around the level 2 plus , and for the unintended behaviours that that particular performance measure has driven within our schools . i 'll be making a statement shortly to the assembly around a new performance measure for schools . we were , at our most recent secondary heads conference , working with schools to develop that . what 's important to me is that we have a more sophisticated model that looks at school performance for all children . what level 2 plus does is narrow , very much , the focus of schools on an individual part of the cohort , usually the c/d borderline , which is why then we have problems with the number of students getting a b grade or above . we have marked success in our schools by saying to schools that a c is good enough . well , if a child gets a c but came to you in year 7 and they were destined to get an e , yes , indeed , a c is a success , because you 've moved that child on ; but , if that child came to you destined to get an a * and gets a c , then we have n't done a good job by that particular child . so , we need a performance measure that is much more sophisticated , looks at each individual child , tracks that progress , and measures the value added by that school in performance . hefin david am: last question : therefore , should we have confidence in the data up to 2016 ? is there a lack of confidence in that data ? kirsty williams am: no , it 's not a lack of confidence in the data . the data is the data . what i 'm saying is , using that as a performance measure and an accountability measure within our school system may have been right for the time . i think it is now right to have a different way of measuring success in schools . i think that particular set of performance measures has driven certain behaviours—not because ministers wanted that to happen , but as an unintended consequence . i think we can work together with our school system , learning the lessons of international best practice , to develop much more sophisticated accountability and performance measures for individual schools , and , i should say , for the government . so , you will be aware of my intention to issue the first national report card on government performance later on this year . so , this is not about trying to avoid scrutiny . it 's about trying to develop a more sophisticated way , which is in line with our national mission , where every child 's education is valued , and where the impact of the school can be tracked more effectively . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . can i just ask , cabinet secretary , are you still holding on to your target of 37 per cent of free-school-meal pupils achieving the level 2 threshold ? kirsty williams am: well , we 're moving away from the level 2 threshold . so , that 's the first thing to say . so , we will want to develop a new suite , in line with our new accountability measures , as we go forward . so , we will be absolutely continuing to track and evaluate the performance of free-school-meal pupils . when we announce our new accountability measures , i will be in a position to address how we 'll measure the government's performance , and national performance , going forward . but , given the fact that we 're moving away from level 2 plus , then we will need a different set of performance indicators . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the next questions are on looked-after children and adopted children , and i 've got questions from michelle then mark . michelle brown am: thank you . good morning— mark reckless am: i was to come in first , i think . i was about to ask about icf consulting . lynne neagle am: go on then . mark reckless am: i think my questions are first , but , michelle , please do correct me if you were planning to come in before . the pdg for looked-after children does n't quite seem to have the degree of visibility as the pdg for the free-school-meals . i think we had the mori/wiserd survey—only 15 per cent of primary schools and 23 per cent of secondary schools were aware that pdg was targeted at looked-after children . i just wonder—can you clarify on the record here what is the role of schools with pdg for looked-after children as compared to the regional consortia in this field ? kirsty williams am: okay . i think it is absolutely fair to say that most awareness around pdg is around free school meals . there is less awareness around the availability of pdg to support looked-after children . i think that 's probably in the nature of the cohort , so , there are more children subject to free school meals than are subject to being looked after . so , i think that 's part of the explanation . a decision was taken in 2015 to regionalise pdg for looked-after children . my understanding was that the thinking behind that at the time was around a greater strategic deployment of that resource and to try and drive a greater impact than how it was being used previously . so , looked-after pdg is held at a regional level . we have looked-after children pdg co-ordinators—they 're in their second year this year—to look at a regional deployment of that resource . and that resource can be done in a variety of ways , through individual allocation to a school to support an individual child , through to capacity building for the whole system . so , for instance , if i give you an example , in carmarthenshire , there 's been a big emphasis on attachment disorder and training teachers with regard to the impact of attachment disorder . carmarthenshire happens to be one of those local authorities that does quite well in terms of attainment for looked-after children . but , clearly , i have—not concerns . 'concerns ' is n't the right word . but i have asked officials to give greater scrutiny to how that resource has been used in the last year . steve , on my behalf , wrote out to the system , setting out our expectations , but also advising them of the fact we will be asking very detailed questions of accountability for that money . so , what has that money been used on and how can you account for the effect ? but , steve , maybe you can give some greater detail . steve davies: i think the challenge that— . one of the rationales for shifting—not that all the money stays in the region , but having a regional strategic support—was that , historically , the money was going directly with that child to the school . given the quite often rapid turnover of children in schools—the very nature of looked-after children is they do sometimes move through foster parents—historically , what happened , the money lands in the school , because , at that time in the year , when it 's measured , the school gets the money and can spend it on some additional support for staff , but quite often that child moves on to another school and the money does n't transfer . some schools will go through quite a number of years without having a looked-after child and will not think strategically , 'how do i need to support them ? ' so , that was the rationale of the shift . in terms of the implementation of the regional allocation , as of this financial year finishing , we are going into local authorities and regions to evaluate where they 've located the resource , what the impact of that resource has been , so that is reinforced and shared more widely . kirsty williams am: and then , to reassure , it 's not just internally that we 're looking at this . we have a contract with an external agency to do an evaluation— mark reckless am: that 's icf consulting . kirsty williams am: yes . yes , so that was done in the autumn of last year , because , as i said , we had concerns about whether this was really having the effect that was intended . so , my expectation is that we will be in a position to receive that report later on this spring , and of course it would be my intention that that report would be made public for people to have a look at what— mark reckless am: that was commissioned last autumn— kirsty williams am: yes , in november 2017 . mark reckless am: november 2017 . kirsty williams am: so , i 'm hoping to have that published before the summer recess . i 'm very reluctant to say months ; i 've learnt not to say months , because they move . lynne neagle am: i 'm going to go to michelle now , mark , because— mark reckless am: sure . i will come back in if i have anything further to ask here after michelle . lynne neagle am: —both of you asked for these questions , and that 's what the pre-meeting is for . mark reckless am: michelle , i defer to you . lynne neagle am: michelle . michelle brown am: okay , thank you . would you be open , cabinet secretary , to the idea of adjusting the eligibility of the pdg so that pupils who have been looked after or adopted at any point within a previous given period of time would attract the pdg , rather than only if they 're looked-after on a one-off date ? kirsty williams am: as i said earlier , in questions from , i think it was , llyr , who was talking about concepts of concepts of ever 6 , we are constantly looking at how we can get that balance between focus and flexibility for this resource . llyr opened with the question of , 'how can you absolutely ensure that these children are getting the money ? ' , but then there 's also a tension about how can you create some flexibility around the school 's usage of the grant . so , we will look at that . i think there is the issue of where a school would know of a child that was looked after . issues around adoption are slightly more sensitive , because we could n't force a family to tell a school that their child was an adopted child . so , a family may be very open and very keen to explain that to a school , but we ca n't necessarily track as closely children who have been adopted , especially if that adoption happens before the child goes to school . we ca n't be in a position of forcing families to disclose this information if they do n't want to , but we certainly can , as i say , look to strengthen our monitoring arrangements around pdg support for looked-after children and the impact that that 's having . i just think we need to be a bit mindful of people 's privacy in some instances . if they do n't want to divulge that , it would n't be my job to tell a family , 'you have to let us know if your child is adopted . ' lynne neagle am: michelle . michelle brown am: fair enough ; thank you for that answer . the eas consortium 's approach to using the looked-after and adopted pdg is to use it as part of a broader approach targeted at vulnerable learners in general . what are your views on that approach ? kirsty williams am: i 'm a great believer in if we can get it right for our most vulnerable learners , we 'll be getting it right for all of our learners . i gave the example earlier , for instance , of attachment disorder , and , chair , you will know that i have had conversations . one of the emerging themes for me , as i go around visiting schools , is the impact and the growing awareness and the growing numbers of children who have attachment disorder , and how schools are best able to respond to that in their children . so , for instance , as i said about carmarthenshire , there 's been a huge effort to address that in the school sector in carmarthenshire . now , that has a disproportionate benefit for those children , because you 're more likely to see attachment disorder in children who are care experienced , because of the nature of the lives that those children have lived , but that does n't necessarily mean that attachment disorder is exclusively found in those children that are looked after . it can be found in other families as well . so , that vulnerable learner , regardless of their background , will benefit from having teachers who are better trained , understanding and have intervention strategies in place to be able to address that need . steve davies: i think it 's also important to add that this is not one region 's approach ; this is across four regions , so the others— . for example , erw have run a significant programme looking at the impact of adverse childhood experiences on pupils , which has enabled teachers to detect some of the impact of some of those and then considers some of the work they need to do within the school but also with other agencies . so , it is something that's applied consistently across the four regions . kirsty williams am: i was in pil primary school recently where they use their pdg , both fsm pdg , and no doubt an element of pdg for looked-after , for nurture groups . so , for those children who really , really find it very difficult to be in the main classroom , they can have that nurture group experience to address issues around emotional behaviour , feelings , and it gets them in a position where they are able then to join the main classroom because issues around behaviour have been addressed and they 're in a better position to learn . so , again , this is an example of how vulnerable learners in the wider sense can benefit . lynne neagle am: okay . mark , did you have anything you wanted to ask ? mark reckless am: yes . can i follow up on tracking adopted children ? i entirely understand that you ca n't force parents to disclose that their child is adopted . however , my understanding was that , in england , there was a dataset with social services that was shared with schools in a way that i 'm not clear is happening in wales and how , if at all , that links to the pupil level annual school census data . perhaps sort of linked to that , is n't there an argument for making the parents of adopted children in the schools , potentially , with adopted children more aware that adopted children who were previously looked after have this potential grant , and would they not be more willing to disclose this , at least confidentially to the school and government , if they knew there was this upside of doing so ? kirsty williams am: we 're actively looking at whether we should try and find a way of collecting this data , with the caveats that i just gave earlier . we ca n't force parents to divulge information that is a matter for them , nor would i want to . but there is an active discussion going on at the moment about whether we could create a dataset where people divulge this information and we can then track the children through . you 're absolutely right . one of the ways in which we can often encourage take-up , for instance , of free school meals , especially in those communities where there is a sense of reluctance to apply for support—even though people are entitled to it , there 's a reluctance to do it ; sometimes we see this in rural areas— . actually , appealing to the parents by saying , 'actually , this will mean more money for your child 's school budget' is a much more compelling reason why people will apply for it then saying , 'actually , it 's going to help you ' , because they do n't want to be seen being dependent , they do n't want to be seen being helped . but , if you say to them , 'actually , do you know that this means more money for your child 's school ? ' , they go , 'oh , all right then , i 'll fill in the forms now . ' so , you 're right , i think there is something that we could do to make parents understand , in the round , that this has an impact . but we are actively looking at and discussing whether we could create a dataset around adopted children and how we can do that in line with data protection and data sharing . one of the things i am concerned about in the performance of looked-after children generally is how we can , across government , work more closely together . we ca n't see the educational attainment of looked-after children just being a job of education . it 's got to be a job of social services and the health service as well . there 's got to be a joined-up approach to doing that . now , officials were at the ministerial advisory group that 's chaired by david melding on prospects for looked-after children . they were there at the group last week . david tells me that the paper was very positively received by the group . i will be sitting down with david melding to talk through what more we can do on the education side . i think there 's really an appetite between me and the minister for children to get a closer working relationship on this . we ca n't expect schools to do it on their own and alone . and there are things that we can do out there in local authorities to help improve outcomes . it 's not just about the pdg ; it is about , when social services are thinking about a placement , where does the discussion about where children are going to go to school—when does that take place ? do we talk about the placement , move a child and then think , 'oh my goodness me , what are we going to do about the schooling ? ' if you can imagine , the school could have been working really , really hard with a pupil to get them in a good place , to get them being able to access the curriculum , and then social services decide that the placement is being changed . so , we potentially lose all of that . so , a greater involvement in education and better linked-up working in local authorities will help us with this . it ca n't be just the job of the pdg . if we think we can crack this with just pdg , then we 're being delusional . it has to be a cross-government approach at a national level , and at a local government level as well , to get this right . sometimes , data protection—how can we break down some of these barriers between , you know , the school does n't need to , schools should n't see , the entire social services report ? well , maybe the school does need to see some of that background information if they 're going to have an impact for that child . so , there 's more work to do , but it can not be just the job of education on its own if we 're going to make a difference , nor can it just be the job of the pdg to make a difference for those children . lynne neagle am: thank you . julie 's got some more questions on the impact on adopted and looked-after children . julie morgan am: yes , before i go on to those , i just wanted to support , really , what mark was saying about adopted children and how important it is , i think , that the adoptive parents feel able to speak to the school and to give information . because certainly any evidence we 've had from adoptive parents , and generally knowing about what adoptive parents do feel , is that they often feel that there 's a degree of a lack of sensitivity in the school about the issues of adoption . i would certainly support some move towards ensuring that the atmosphere was open in a way that would encourage them to realise that it would be a help for the children if there was an awareness in the school . so , i just wanted to really reinforce that . kirsty williams am: yes , and that would chime with what i hear from many adoptive parents . i 'm just trying to be sensitive by saying we ca n't force people to divulge this information if they do n't want to . julie morgan am: no , but they need to be given the opportunity . kirsty williams am: yes , you 're right . we need to make sure that those parents feel that they can discuss this with school leaders and classroom teachers and explore how best those individual children can be supported , and how best we can support parents . because , again—and i 've said this a lot—after the quality of teaching , the second biggest impact on a child 's educational outcome will be parental engagement . so , being able to create an environment where adoptive parents feel very confident and able to talk about their children 's education is absolutely crucial if we 're going to get that parental engagement that we need for all of our children . julie morgan am: yes . thank you . going on to looked-after children , you say that the latest data on looked-after children 's attainment is extremely disappointing . can you expand on that and what effect the pdg has had in this result , or not had ? kirsty williams am: well , there 's no getting away from it : the way in which we currently measure outcomes for looked-after children , the results are not good enough . it 's a source of huge concern to me that we need to do better for those children . that 's why officials are engaging with the group that david melding is chairing , to make sure that education is integral to that group and it 's not lost sight of . there 's a discussion to be had about the cohort , whether it 's right and correct to compare looked-after children to the main cohort , or whether these statistics are useful in any way . sometimes as well—this is not to make an excuse because , as i 've said in my paper , it 's extremely disappointing , but sometimes it can be really difficult . because the cohort sometimes can be very , very small , it can swing the statistics to look perhaps more dramatic . julie morgan am: i think , generally , when you look at how looked-after children do— kirsty williams am: it 's not good . julie morgan am: —in a much wider evaluation , they 're not doing well , are they ? kirsty williams am: they 're not doing well . so , that 's why we 've got the review , the independent review , into the impact of the pdg in this area . this is why steve is doing the work that he is doing with the regional consortia because , clearly , at the moment , we are not doing what we need to do for that particular cohort of children . i would not make any bones about that at all . steve davies: i think we will not move away from the fact that these children need good gcses to gain employment , so we 'll continue to measure that . i think we need to look at more nuanced evaluations of the data at a lower level . so , for example , there were significant improvements in terms of pdg pupils who got three and four good gcses but did n't get past the threshold . that 's not to cover anything that is not working in terms of improvement , but we will look at the full range and still hold on to the fact that we have to look at a measure that relates to the likelihood of these children going on to further education and training . julie morgan am: and then just one more question about the exclusion rates amongst looked-after children . they are , i understand , over six times more likely to be given a fixed-term exclusion . so , is there any way of trying to address this ? is the pdg used for anything to do with exclusions ? kirsty williams am: we can look at exclusions . we also have to read across about how the whole system works , not just the pdg element of the system . so , we know , for example , that 66 per cent of looked-after learners have some additional learning need , so we ca n't just look at it in terms of this particular source of funding ; we have to look at it at a wider level of support . so , given that the majority of those children will have an aln , how can we make sure that our new aln legislation and our new aln regime meets the needs of these children ? so , i think what we 're looking at , again , is to say that it ca n't be just the job of the pdg . that 's there as an additional level of support , but actually , we 've got to get our aln right . unless we get our aln right , lots and lots of these children are not going to get the support that they need day in , day out via that system . we do know that sometimes , if we 're not addressing aln , then we 're not addressing behaviour issues that then potentially lead to an expulsion or potentially lead to non-attendance . so , we 've got to look at it in the round and recognise the connections between the sometimes quite complex needs that these children have within the school setting , that are not just as a result of the fact that they 're looked after ; they have other needs as well . steve davies: and investment in well-being— kirsty williams am: absolutely . steve is reminding me that that 's why well-being is part of the national mission—to address issues around supporting children with their well-being , which is a way of keeping them in school . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 're going to move on to schools challenge cymru now . llyr . llyr gruffydd am: thank you , chair . i was just wondering what your assessment is as to why some schools made progress and others did n't . kirsty williams am: i think we have to recognise that the 39 schools that were part of the programme were in very , very different places . so , i think one of the reasons why some schools did well was because their needs were not so complex , not so deep-seated and a certain level of intervention was enough to get them moving forward . some schools had very , very different needs . i think , talking to those involved in the programme , as always , we had some support advisers , challenge advisers working with those schools as part of the programme who were really , really excellent and really good , and were the right fit for the school and really drove the school onwards . we had other people employed in the programme who , perhaps , were less effective at driving change within those individual schools . so , what we have is a mixed bag of performance , again reflecting the very different challenges that those schools were facing , which led them to be chosen for the programme in the first place . llyr gruffydd am: yes , okay— steve davies: sorry . one of the other key additional factors was the extent to which there had been recent appointment of a new headteacher to that school just before the programme had started , because— kirsty williams am: leadership is all . llyr gruffydd am: and that was seen as a positive . steve davies: a positive , yes . i think one of the challenges is that sometimes the time it takes to make changes in leadership can be protracted and can be a barrier , sometimes , to the speed with which you can move . but , for a significant minority of the schools , there had been recent new appointments of headteachers , which was seen to be contributing , when you looked at the evaluation , to the speed with which they were able to engage . llyr gruffydd am: the reason i was asking was i wanted to understand what lessons the government is taking from that three-year investment , really , and how , maybe , you 're applying some of those lessons to your wider school improvement programme . i know professor mel ainscow identified six interconnected lessons , although i also note that the cabinet secretary did n't actually meet him for about six or seven months after coming into post . so , i 'm just wondering , can you give us confidence that , actually , you are serious about taking lessons from schools challenge cymru and applying them to the wider school improvement agenda ? kirsty williams am: well , absolutely , llyr . i do n't think anything should be read into when i met the individual concerned , because officials were meeting the individual concerned . individual challenge advisers were meeting with the regions , there was crossover work with the fsm agenda as well , and we are absolutely determined that best practice and those interventions that drove school improvement are embedded in the new support that we have via the regional consortia . it 's no coincidence that some of the best people that were employed by schools challenge cymru are now in the employment of our regional consortia . so , those people that were really good and really made a difference do n't work for the schools challenge cymru scheme any more , they work for our regional school improvement services . so , we 're absolutely determined . the things that we have learned , as always , are around leadership . it is absolutely key and crucial to have strong , capable school leadership as a driver for change within the system . we 're looking at systems and processes , so , actually , has a school got in place comprehensive systems of tracking and processes within the school ? we 're looking at the teacher quality—how can we ensure that we have got consistent strategies in place to drive up pedagogy and teacher quality in the classroom ? collaborative activity—again , absolutely key . a school can not see itself in isolation , and one of the key themes of the national mission is a self-improving system , so , collaborative working where schools are looking outside of each other , learning from best practice from other schools . so , there are lots of things that we 've drawn from the evaluation that you will see as key themes running through the national mission , and , as i said , it 's no coincidence that our really good people that were working in schools challenge cymru are now working for the regional consortia , being able to use that expertise not just for a very small proportion of our schools—but that expertise is available to all our schools . llyr gruffydd am: although estyn has told us , of course , that you ca n't expect the consortia to really carry on with that level of intervention and the same kind of intensity as was provided previously , so i 'm just wondering— kirsty williams am: in what way ? llyr gruffydd am: well , we were told by estyn in evidence that they did n't necessarily think that we could expect the consortia to provide the same type of tailored support , and certainly the level of intensity with the improvement boards and everything— kirsty williams am: well , the improvement boards are carrying on , so the improvement boards still exist , and i would—not that i want to argue with estyn— llyr gruffydd am: well , feel free ; this is your opportunity to do so if you— kirsty williams am: what i would say is that those improvement boards are staying on , and our schools categorisation system is used to identify the level of support . now , if you 're a red school , that gives you the entitlement to 25 days of support . that is more than you would have got under the schools challenge cymru programme , which would 've been 20 days . so , actually , moving to this system allows us to really focus in on those schools that need that intensive level of support . and what 's important for me , llyr , in this , okay , is that those schools are not necessarily just the schools that were in the programme . our system now of challenge , advice and support allows us to target resources across all of our schools and across all of our sectors , because you 'll be aware that schools challenge was only available to secondary schools , not available to primary schools . what our system now allows us to do , via the schools categorisation , is to identify schools , wherever they are in wales and whatever sector they 're in , to have that intensive level of support that they need to make improvements . llyr gruffydd am: so , you 're confident that that level of momentum is continuing through the consortia that was previously enjoyed by those particular schools , and you 're also confident that there is minimal risk that they 'll slip back to where they were , potentially , or at least part of the way back . kirsty williams am: well , actually , there are some really good examples of some of the schools challenge cymru schools making that sustained improvement now that the programme has come to an end . you only have to look at tredegar , where we have seen continual improvement and moving up through the categorisation system . that school is now a green school , so they 've been able to sustain their progress at the end of the programme . if we look at armando in eastern high school , again—gosh , my goodness me , we had lots of debates in a previous chamber about the future of eastern . there was one person that said that eastern had to be closed and that the only way forward for that particular school was for it to be shut down , but what we have seen is investment via schools challenge cymru , but ongoing , continual support from the regional consortium , and that school has come out of special measures . i pay absolute tribute to the staff of that school and that community that have done such a good job . so , i 'm absolutely convinced that where we 've got good leadership and good support , some of those schools are making continued , sustained progress even after the end of the programme . the challenge for me is for those schools that schools challenge cymru did n't work for , and we have n't seen that progress—how we can use our school improvement system now to continue to work with those schools to give them the level of support that they need to make a difference . so that 's what my focus is on now : a whole-system approach , rather than choosing 39 schools to get that level of support , when we recognise that there are schools everywhere , potentially , that need intervention , support and challenge , and in the primary sector as well . llyr gruffydd am: okay . so , you would n't agree with a number of—well , the near-unanimous evidence that we 've had from academics , some of whom are government advisers from consortia et cetera , that this kind of programme such as schools challenge cymru would probably need about five years to really have the impact that it was intended to have . kirsty williams am: what i would say is that , from my understanding , from the outset , it was a time-limited programme . the schools were aware of that . there were no surprises that it was supposed to be a time-limited programme . evidence from across the uk showed that school challenge programmes have differed in time . so , for instance , manchester 's challenge was a three-year programme . so , there 's no consensus about how many years you need to run a programme for . the previous minister was quite clear about the time-limited nature of the programme . that 's not to say it was the wrong decision , because what 's important , and an ongoing legacy of the programme , was the investment in regional school improvement capacity , because at the time our school improvement services and the regions were young , in their infancy . the ability of individual local authorities to make a difference , with so many local authorities in an estyn categorisation , was limited , so one of the ongoing legacies of the programme is that significant investment of over £10 million in the capacity of the regions to be able to continue this support and the school improvement work . llyr gruffydd am: so , how disappointed were you that the money for schools challenge cymru went back into reserves and did n't stay in your envelope , as you described it earlier ? i presume you made a pitch for it . did you make a case for that money to stay within your department ? kirsty williams am: llyr , we are constantly having discussions with the minister for finance around support for the education budget . the minister for finance was quite clear that it was a time-limited programme . we were able to secure investment from the finance minister to be able to secure the programme and run it and phase it out to make sure there was transition support , so as we moved from the schools challenge programme into the regional consortia , there were resources to do that . llyr gruffydd am: did you feel there was a case to be made to add to the consortia 's resources and be able to continue that level of support that schools had previously had ? kirsty williams am: well , we did make resources available to the regional consortia to do that . as i say , from the outset , the previous minister was very clear it was a time-limited programme . certainly the schools that i talk to— . and i want to be absolutely clear : i have visited many , many schools challenge cymru schools . i have used that opportunity to talk to them about—heolddu being one of them , hefin , which we went to visit , and willows , for instance . i 'm going to one this afternoon—i 'm going to st illtyd 's this afternoon , and i always take— . i 've been to caergybi in anglesey . i always take the opportunity to speak to those teachers about their experience of the programme and to understand and assure myself that they are getting ongoing support that they see as an appropriate level for them . i think i 've done 19 of the schools . lynne neagle am: hefin on this . hefin david am: with regard to it being a time-limited programme , the previous minister was clear that it was a time-limited programme , but it was n't quite as time-limited as you 've decided to be . is that fair to say ? kirsty williams am: no , it was supposed to be a three-year programme at the most . so , there 's no differential between when i decided it was time-limited and the expectations— hefin david am: so the time limit was the same that the previous minister put on it . kirsty williams am: yes . no change . llyr gruffydd am: but mel ainscow did tell us that there was a fade out in that third year—not that people were giving up , do n't get me wrong , but clearly there was n't that commitment coming from government because the decision had been made , and people felt that it was just fizzling out a little bit , and that impacted on the momentum . kirsty williams am: i would n't characterise it as that . i think there certainly was a transition phase when we knew that the programme was moving and schools were moving into a different level of support , but i certainly would n't describe it as a fading out—not at all . as i said , we were aware that the programme was transitioning and we were determined to get that right for those individual schools , and to learn the lessons and , crucially , to be able to apply those lessons right across the board . steve davies: i can see where the perception would come if a programme director like mel was managing the programme right to the end of the three years exactly the same , and it falls off—not a cliff , but it falls off , then the readiness for schools and the readiness in the system to hand over—so part of the shift of focus was that working as a government with the programme in those schools to working with the programme , those schools and the region . so , i think , inevitably , one party might see it as a decrease in terms of emphasis on their work , but it was necessary for the transition . llyr gruffydd am: but does that cast a bit of a shadow over the transition , then—that one key player within that process felt as such , or are you confident that that was managed well and effectively ? kirsty williams am: i think it was managed well , and we were very clear to recognise success where success has been achieved , but not to gloss over where the programme had not made an impact , because that would n't be good for anybody . there was a formal event to close the programme , which gave everybody an opportunity to get together , to be formally thanked , and for , as i said , congratulations to be given to those people who had really made a difference and , crucially , key staff transferred over into the regional consortia . so , for those individuals , they were able to continue their work , but just be able to apply that work on a regional basis rather than just in an individual school . so , i do n't see that there was any fading out , but there was a transition into a new system , and many of those key personnel transitioned into the system with us . lynne neagle am: have you got any figures for the numbers of staff who went from the programme into the consortia ? kirsty williams am: not off the top of my head , but i can let you know . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got darren first , then mark . kirsty williams am: and can i just say , i met with some of them ? i met with a selection of those people who had been involved in the programme to get their feedback on what they felt had gone right , and what they did n't feel had gone right in the programme . so , i took the time not just to meet the figurehead of the programme , but actually to meet the people who were doing the work in the individual schools . sorry . darren millar am: yes , i just wanted to ask you , you mentioned the figurehead there , i assume by 'the figurehead ' you mean professor ainscow . and you 've mentioned as well that you said you wanted to learn lessons from schools challenge cymru , but he told us that nobody had been in touch with him since march of last year in order to have any sort of follow-up engagement , or to have a dialogue about his perspective on what worked , what did n't work , why there were failures in some areas and why there were successes in others . why have n't you sought that level of engagement with the person who was responsible for running the programme ? kirsty williams am: i 've had that conversation with mr ainscow . we had the evaluation of the programme . we 've spoken to the people who were actually involved in running the programme on a daily basis in individual schools . we 've spoken to the regional consortia . we 've spoken to local education authorities . we 've spoken to a wide variety of people to get their insight into the lessons learned , what was valuable and what was not valuable . so , a wide variety of people have been involved in those conversations . darren millar am: but you 've hardly engaged with mr ainscow—with professor ainscow himself . steve davies: i would actually say that i have had meetings— darren millar am: since march of last year . steve davies: yes , since march of last year . i have n't got the exact dates for you . i 've had discussions with mel ainscow , and my line manager at the time , owen evans , also had meetings and discussions . darren millar am: so , when he told us , 'since last march , i literally have had no contact at all with anybody from welsh government ' , he was telling porky pies , was he ? steve davies: that 's not my recollection . i 'll go back and check for you . lynne neagle am: if you could check and let us know , that would be good . mark . kirsty williams am: yes , well , i just talked about the celebration event to formally mark the end of the programme . my understanding was that it was july of last year , so people were engaged in that . and this idea that somebody has been ignored or frozen out is not how i see or how i regard that situation . lynne neagle am: mark . mark reckless am: i have to say , with professor ainscow my impression was he took great , great pride in the work that he 'd done with schools challenge cymru , and i think he really enjoyed the engagement , the work and the positive relations with the welsh government . but i think there was just a degree of disappointment , perhaps , that at least he did n't feel that he 'd been interrogated as much as he might have been about the lessons learned from the programme , and how perhaps to entrench those as well as possible with the regional consortia . i just wonder , cabinet secretary , if you could invite the professor in , perhaps to have a further debrief with you and take account of some of his thoughts and suggestions for what might help in this area . kirsty williams am: well , mark , as i said , i just do n't think it should be right to characterise this as a failure to engage with a single individual . mark reckless am: i 'm not characterising it that way , cabinet secretary . kirsty williams am: as i said , i met with him , steve has met with him , owen evans has met with him , my special policy adviser has met with him and had discussions . so , there has been an ongoing dialogue . but , mark , i hope that i have demonstrated since i took on this job that i am willing to work with a wide variety of people and to tap into their expertise if it can help me to deliver on the national mission . and if the advice to me is that we have n't sufficiently learnt the lessons , then i 'll gladly have another conversation . what i 'm saying to you—and i 'm absolutely confident—is that we have learnt the lessons , we are taking that work and the good practice forward , and we have done that with conversations with a wide variety of people who had a view on this , from individual schools that were involved in the programme , individual people who were working in those schools , local education authorities , some of which have been very scathing about the programme , i should say , regional consortia— . so , the lessons , i am confident , have been learnt . mark reckless am: i 'm glad to hear that , cabinet secretary , but i still say that , listening to professor ainscow 's evidence , there was a perception , at least from him individually , that the programme should not be seen to be a failure , but a desire that the lessons should be learnt and a feeling or exception , at least on his part , that there was more that he still had to contribute to the process . and just to take one particular example , i think he referred to the schools challenge cymru advisers being very successful in bringing in people who might not otherwise have contributed to this , and the regional consortia have had greater challenges in recruiting people , perhaps in some areas , of the same high standard of some particular individuals , but also from a wide range of different areas that the schools challenge cymru do , and that there could be more to learn in that area as to how to support real excellence and a greater diversity of recruitment for those people . is that something you could perhaps draw on his thoughts further about ? because i think he does feel that he has more to say to welsh government to help in this area . kirsty williams am: firstly , can i say that i have never described the programme as a failure ? i would understand , as someone who has put so much personal investment into the brand of schools challenges , that he would not want anybody to characterise that particular approach to school improvement as a failure . and i want to be absolutely clear that i have never described the programme as a failure , and i want to reassure mr ainscow of that . as i 've said , gosh , my goodness me , if you saw my e-mail inbox and you saw the letters that come in , people are never shy in coming forward to give me advice on what i need to do , what i need to do next , what i 'm doing right , what i 'm doing wrong , and , you know , our doors are always open to listen to people who have interesting things to say about how we can deliver our educational mission . so , people are n't slow in coming forward , i can assure you , with advice . lynne neagle am: julie . julie morgan am: just very quickly . i 'm sure the minister is aware that cardiff put extra funds of its own in to continue schools challenge cymru advisers . so , obviously , they appreciated the value of the scheme , but it does query whether it should have gone on longer . kirsty williams am: julie , i think , to be fair , there are some people who think the scheme was absolutely fantastic . i 've had feedback from people who did n't think the scheme was helpful at all—in fact , they felt it was a hindrance . i 'm very much of the view that the scheme worked really well for some schools in some areas and had less impact in some areas . there is a mixed picture . what 's important to me is that we understand what it was that led those schools to make those big changes , how we can—like mark talked about , the expertise—how we can keep that expertise in the system , and how we can apply the lessons to all schools . lynne neagle am: the next questions , and the final questions , are from john . so , we 're going to need succinct questions and succinct answers . john griffiths am: some questions on regional consortia , cabinet secretary , and , first of all , the role that you believe they should play and how schools use pdg . kirsty williams am: well , it 's an absolute— . it 's one of the things that i have been very clear to the regional consortia that i expect their challenge and support advisers to be asking schools about . so , one of the conversations that they need to have when they are in schools is exploring , with that school , how they are using their pdg , and how they 're demonstrating an impact for those resources . so , it 's a fundamental role for the challenge and support advisers in the regional consortia in their school improvement work . it 's crucial . john griffiths am: that sort of brings to mind some of the research that 's been done on the role of the challenge advisers , cabinet secretary , which suggested that they 're not actually challenging schools in that way , and that there 's very little evidence of schools changing their decisions on the use of pdg as a result of any challenge from those challenge advisers . so , how would you respond to those findings ? kirsty williams am: well , as i said , in my scrutiny of the role and success of our regional consortia , i specifically asked them about free-school-meal performance and the use of pdg within their particular region . i think there is increasing evidence to suggest that good use is being made of that resource , and i think that is being fed back into us . estyn tell us that it 's one of the areas of school expenditure that is closely linked to research and an evidence base . but , clearly , there is more to do , and that 's why we have appointed the new regional advisers for pdg going forward , because we think there can be improvements in how this agenda can be supported at a regional level . john griffiths am: okay . so , you would recognise the findings from that research . kirsty williams am: yes . there 's always more that we can do , and we are strengthening that role by the appointment of the new regional pdg advisers , so that individual school challenge advisers know what they should be looking for , know what they should be doing , and there is a regional approach to good practice . john griffiths am: okay . could you tell the committee , cabinet secretary , how effective you believe the relationship was between the schools challenge cymru programme and the regional consortia 's school improvement functions , and to what extent it varied by region ? kirsty williams am: i think it 's fair to say that , on occasion , i have received feedback that there was a conflict between what was going on at an individual school under the school improvement programme and whether , then , they welcomed support from the regional consortia as part of that . so , in some cases , if we 're being absolutely honest , there could sometimes be tensions between the two , but in most cases , the relationship was very , very positive and there was continuous feedback between the work going on in the schools under the programme and the regional consortia challenge advisers . but i 'm going to be blunt and honest with people—in some cases , it has been reported to me—it 's only anecdotal evidence ; i have n't got hard and fast evidence—that there sometimes was a conflict : 'we 're a school challenge school so we do n't need to participate or listen to any advice that 's coming from the regional consortia . ' or , a local education authority said to me , 'we felt that we could n't get involved in that school anymore because it was part of a different programme . ' those were isolated incidents , and , as i said , it 's only anecdotal feedback . in most cases , the relationship was a very positive one . steve davies: just very quickly , i think that , across the board , it was more complex in the beginning , getting— [ inaudible. ] . but when the programme itself recognised that they needed to work with the regions , and the regions needed to work with them—and i think mel ainscow in his evidence referred to this—it strengthened after some early challenges . i think mel ainscow was working in a number of regions—i ca n't remember which ones—so he 's established relationships— [ interruption . ] sorry ? kirsty williams am: central south . steve davies: central south . he has already been working in that , so i think it possibly had a stronger springboard in terms of the early working . kirsty williams am: because he already had relationships that he had already developed in that particular region . as always , with many of these things , it 's about individuals and relationships . john griffiths am: okay . finally from me , cabinet secretary : in 2015-16 , estyn reported on regional consortia not sufficiently focusing on particular groups of pupils and tracking their outcomes—for example , vulnerable pupils . i just wonder what you are able to tell us in terms of to what extent there has been necessary progress since 2015-16 . kirsty williams am: okay . well , i think it 's important to recognise that all four consortia underwent monitoring visits in the autumn of last year , of 2017 , which were n't reflected in the estyn annual report for 2015-16. estyn , through these 2017 inspections , have said that three out of the four regional consortia are making strong progress in their particular work , and we are continuing , as welsh government , to work with the other regional consortia to address the findings of the estyn report . john griffiths am: and that would include these particular issues . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . the committee probably has n't had an opportunity to see , but , only this morning , estyn has released a report on more able and talented , and has positive things to say in the field of more able and talented , which was being asked about earlier by members—you know , evidence of improved working and support in that particular arena . but , again , we need to ensure a consistency across all the regions , and that the findings of estyn 's most recent reports into regional performance are followed through . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . as we 've got a couple of minutes left , if i can just jump back to the issue of practical uses of the pdg—because it 's the only thing we have n't really covered and it would be good to get on the record—can i ask to what extent you 'd like to see the pdg used to track the progress of eligible pupils ? and the committee 's heard that there are several different tracking systems and tools used by schools . to what extent is that an issue to do with what the welsh government is promoting ? or is it down to consortia or individual schools ? and do you think there needs to be a more centralised push on how the tracking is undertaken ? kirsty williams am: firstly , can i say it 's absolutely crucial that we track performance , absolutely crucial ? that 's the bedrock . we do n't dictate to individual schools the nature of the system that they should employ in their school . there are a number of different programmes that allow schools to do this , but we are absolutely clear , and best practice and evidence shows us , that individual pupil tracking is key and crucial . and , as i said in the beginning , where we were n't tracking pupils at all , initial investment in pdg was used to establish these systems within schools . again , one of the outcomes from the schools challenge review , and one of the lessons learnt , was , again , the importance of individual tracking of pupils throughout their school career . but we do n't dictate a single system . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . kirsty williams am: but the principle is a really important one . lynne neagle am: okay , and you do n't think there 's more scope to look at what the best system is that can be recommended to schools . kirsty williams am: that 's not something we 're actively looking at . i am actively looking at developing a welsh toolkit around good practice , evidence base and research . at the moment we use the sutton trust toolkit , which is fine and excellent , but we are having active discussions about whether we 're in a position , now , to look at developing a suite of a welsh toolkit to support this agenda , and that 's under active consideration . lynne neagle am: okay . well , we 've reached the end of our session . can i thank the cabinet secretary and the officials for attending and for answering such a wide range of questions ? as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you again for coming . kirsty williams am: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: thank you . okay . item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the minister for children and social care on families first funding . paper to note 2 is a letter from the cabinet secretary for education , updating us on the supply teacher issue . paper to note 3—another letter from the cabinet secretary for education , providing further information following our meeting on 15 february . paper to note 4 is a letter from the wjec on availability of textbooks . paper to note 5—a letter from qualifications wales , also on availability of textbooks . and paper to note 6 is a letter from the cabinet secretary for education to the children 's commissioner for wales , following up on the dialogue that they 've been having about our inquiry . are members happy to note those ? thank you . item 4 , then , is for me to propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

they believe that if they can get it right for our most vulnerable learners , they 'll be getting it right for all of our learners . an emerging theme is the impact , the growing awareness and the growing numbers of children who have attachment disorder , and how schools are best able to respond to that in their children . so , vulnerable learners , regardless of their background , will benefit from having teachers who are better trained , understanding and have intervention strategies in place to be able to address that need . and this is an action applied across four regions .

what does the group discuss about the dataset on tracking adopted children ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to this morning 's children , young people and education committee . we 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members who are present if they wish to declare any interests ? okay , thank you . item 2 this morning is our final evidence session for our inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams am , cabinet secretary for education ; steve davies , director of the education directorate ; and ruth conway , deputy director , support for learners division . welcome to all of you , and thank you for your attendance and also for the paper that you 've provided in advance . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions , and the first questions are from llyr gruffydd . llyr gruffydd am: bore da . i just want to start by asking some questions around the targeting of the pupil development grant because , clearly , we 've had a lot of evidence around this apparent blurring of eligibility to an extent . i 'm just wondering how comfortable you are that the money is being targeted appropriately because , clearly , it 's being targeted more widely than just those eligible for free school meals , from some of the evidence we 've had , but also that it seems to be predominantly focused on low-attaining frees—pupils who are eligible for free school meals . kirsty williams am: thank you , llyr . i think it 's important to be absolutely clear that when it comes to individual interventions , those individual interventions should only be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals . but in some cases , schools may use their pdg funding to provide a universal intervention , but we would want to—in challenge advisers ' discussions in schools—we 'd want to have evidence that that universal intervention would have a disproportionate effect on the outcomes for children on free school meals . so , for instance , if i give you an example in your own region , llyr : at brynteg county primary school in wrexham , if you look at that primary school in wrexham , their results for free-school-meal children at the end of their primary school period in school are equivalent to their non-free-school-meal counterparts . so , there is no differentiation in those results . one of the things that they 've used their pdg for is to really focus on the concept of growth mindset in school . so , that 's a universal thing that they 've trained all the teachers in , but what we know is that that has a disproportionate effect on those children who are on free school meals . so , if you 're familiar with the concept of a growth mindset , it 's about really challenging learners to think that , ' i can do things . if sometimes i fail , i pick myself up , i 'm more resilient . ' now , that has been , as i said , trained to all the teachers in the school—it 's an ethos for the whole school—but we have seen that the impact on the free-school-meal children has been even greater , and now they 're at the same level . so , that 's the important distinction . individual intervention per child has to be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals , but sometimes a school will employ a whole-school approach to train their staff , for instance , and that , then , has to demonstrate it has a disproportionate effect on free school meals . so , growth mindset ; it may be attachment disorder training for staff , for instance , where we know it 's of benefit to everybody , but will have particular benefits for that cohort of students . with regard to more able and talented , you know , llyr , that this is an area of concern for me , generally , within the welsh education system ; that we 've not been particularly good at identifying , supporting and driving attainment for those children . i 'm absolutely clear that pdg needs to be used for those children who are eligible to drive potential , whatever the potential of that child is , including more able and talented . and again , i 'll give you an example that has been seen as good practice in pembrokeshire : a window on the world bus , again paid for by schools . i do n't know if you 're aware of it . llyr gruffydd am: we 've heard about that . kirsty williams am: oh , you 've heard about it ; well , it 's a really good example the window on the world . and , again , that 's very much targeted at raising aspirations and giving children who are more able and talented , who are eligible for pdg , those experiences , and to really push them . so , yes , i 'm absolutely clear that pdg should n't just be seen to be getting individuals to the average . for those children who are more able and talented , it should be used to support them— llyr gruffydd am: and we all share those aspirations , i 'm sure , and you pointed to examples of good practice , but of course , it 's not universal , is it , so what i 'm asking is : do you think that the guidance is sufficient as it is ? do you think that there 's a great enough awareness of how the pdg should be used at the coalface ? and also , are you confident that consortia and others have the measures in place to be able to demonstrate that it is being used properly ? kirsty williams am: i think , if we look at what estyn has said about pdg , it does actually recognise that the pdg is being used to push more able and talented children , but as always with the system , llyr , it 's whether we can be sure that that is strategic and that it 's happening across all of our schools . so , you're— llyr gruffydd am: but not just in relation to more able and talented , i 'm referring to the eligibility and the targeting . kirsty williams am: oh , the eligibility . you 'll be aware that , on the advice of sir alasdair , we have employed and appointed new pdg regional advisers , and i think their role is going to be absolutely crucial in spreading that good practice across the region , whether that 's use of pdg for more able and talented , or ensuring that pdg is used in the appropriate way . so , that 's there to provide strategic overall advice . and obviously , we have been very clear with regional challenge advisers , in the relationship and the conversations they 're having with individual schools , that they 're really challenging their schools about the use of pdg , not just in terms of targeting , but the programmes , what the money is being spent on , whether there is an evidence base for that and whether we are clear on impact . so , i think the new regional advisers are going to be crucial in enabling us to ensure more consistent practice across the regions . llyr gruffydd am: so , are you content that eligibility for free school meals is the best measure , really , of identifying which pupils to target ? kirsty williams am: llyr , in the absence of anything better . i 'll be the first person to say that maybe it 's not as absolutely focused , but in the absence of anything different to identify a proxy for need , i think it 's probably the best that we 've got at present . and we will continue to have discussions with local government about whether there are different ways . we have to be mindful . some of the policy levers in this area are out of my hands , so if we look at the roll-out of universal credit , for instance , we 've got officials working very hard at the moment to try and understand what universal credit is going to mean and where we are going to be able to identify relative need , going forward . we have n't had any additional resource as a result of this , but we 're very mindful that , potentially , this has an impact , going forward . and , officials are working all of the time , i must say , in conjunction with the department in england , to understand their thinking in this area so that we are in a position to make some decisions about what a notional eligibility for free school meals will look like going forward , but before i make any decisions , i want to assure everybody that there will be a full public consultation on that . llyr gruffydd am: okay . finally for now , on this issue of once a year , in january , if you 're eligible for free school meals , then you 're in that group for that year . we 've had some quite strong evidence about how difficult that makes longer term planning for a number of schools and we 've also been pointed in the direction of what 's happened in england with the ever 6 , and i 'm just wondering whether you 're giving any thought to maybe changing that a little bit . kirsty williams am: well , we 're certainly giving thought to flexibility . in conversations with alasdair , who is our independent adviser on this agenda , and individual schools , we 're actively giving thought to greater flexibility and maybe longer term projections , so that schools know , for a number of years ahead , what their allocation will be . there are advantages to that system , because you could give that flexibility , you could give that long-term approach , but then , how do you make that responsive if a school suddenly has more children ? we do know that , actually , the number of free-school-meal pupils is dropping . but there can be changes , you know , regional working in areas of north wales in tourism , or maybe in other areas at christmas time , parents are able to get a period of work . so , how can we create a more flexible system ? we 're actively looking at that at the moment . i would n't use it as an ever 6 concept , but as an 'ever 2 ' concept . we have looked at ever 6 , and i 'm going to be absolutely blunt with you : to introduce an ever 6 concept for wales would mean in the region of identifying an additional £40 million . i 'm going to be absolutely straight and blunt with you : we 're not in a position at the moment to be able to identify an additional £40 million to introduce an ever 6. but issues around flexibility , certainly , are actively under consideration . in fact , we 'll be having a discussion later on today about decisions , going forward , for the next two years . llyr gruffydd am: thank you . lynne neagle am: darren on this . darren millar am: it 's just a very brief point in response to the £40 million price ticket that you just put on that . that 's , of course , assuming that you maintain the current level of pdg , yes ? so , if you reduced the level of pdg slightly , but made it available to more individuals , if you like , via allocating it in a different way , then that £40 million price ticket would n't be there , would it ? kirsty williams am: i was asked a question about had i ever considered an ever 6. we have looked at that , we 've priced that up . i have to make decisions in the envelope of resources that are available to me . we could , indeed , change the way in which we allocate pdg money , but we have to do it within the envelope that is available to me , over £90 million . that 's a significant level of investment , but , of course , as always , darren , we could cut the amount per pupil , but that might have quite challenging swings in allocations . what we have done—because what i am clear on is that there was evidence to suggest that in the secondary sector , a great deal of pdg was being focused on years 10 and 11 , especially year 11 , in catch-up provision , and you 'll be aware , because we 've said this in evidence to the committee in the papers , we 've set a challenge to secondary schools to say , 'actually , the majority of your pdg allocation has to be used in key stage 3 . ' now , we have to balance the needs , the moral hazard of turning round to children in years 10 and 11 and saying , 'we're not going to provide catch-up opportunities for you , ' because , clearly , those children need that support . but the evidence and the advice that we 're receiving is : actually , strong focus on early years , primary and key stage 3 , if we get that right , should negate the need for spending money on catch-up at years 10 and 11. that 's why we , in our advice to local authorities and schools , say that we want to see evidence that they 're spending this money earlier on in a child 's career , rather than just a scramble at year 11 to say , 'right , we 've got to get you through your exams . ' darren millar am: okay , but have you actively considered , then , reducing the level you have ? kirsty williams am: we've— ruth conway: sorry—i was just going to say that one of the things is looking at the scope of the definition , and i think it 's about being more flexible with the definition , rather than reducing the amount per head . darren millar am: okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you . if we can go on , then , to talk about some of the practical uses of the pdg , you write in your written paper that 'the majority of schools are making well thought out and appropriate decisions ' on how to use it . but estyn reported that only two thirds of primary and secondary schools make effective use of the pdg . given that we 've had it now for six years , would you not have expected there to be a higher level of schools actually making good use of that funding ? kirsty williams am: well , to flip it on its head , the vast majority of schools , as identified by estyn , are using this money to good effect . so , that 's the way i like to see it—that the vast majority of schools are doing well . what estyn has also indicated is the intrinsic link here to leadership within individual schools , and as you 'll be aware , leadership , improving capacity in leadership and developing leadership talent in the welsh education system is a key priority for me in our national mission . of course , that 's being developed in a different work stream . i think what 's fair to say is that the use of pdg is evolving over time . i think we are seeing , increasingly , more and more schools understanding how best to deploy that money for best effect for students . so , if we 're honest , when pdg first started , i think , in some schools it was spent on investing in tracking of children , because they 'd never thought about tracking these children , they did n't have systems in place to look at the performance of these children , and to have a system in place . so we 've moved now from spending money on the infrastructure around support for fsm children into actual inputs in terms of teaching and learning . we 're also seeing from estyn that , actually , in terms of money following the evidence of what we know works , estyn says that pdg is probably the best example of schools following tried and tested and evidence-based interventions to deploy the money . but clearly we want all of this money to be deployed as well as it can be , and again we come back to the decision i 've made to appoint regional pdg advisers so that we can get that better consistency of approach . we are , in the discussions that i have with the regional consortia about how they challenge individual schools on usage , looking for very clear evidence of schools using the sutton trust toolkit , and we could have a discussion about whether that 's the right thing , because that 's on my mind too . but we want to see schools demonstrating their evidence base , and if they 're not , if a school is n't doing that , okay , so demonstrate to us why you 've made those decisions and , crucially , what are you doing as the school to judge whether that decision is actually making a difference for your individual pupils . so , if you 're moving away from tried and tested interventions , what we know works , if you 're doing something different with your money , okay , you need to justify that and you need to explain how you 're going to demonstrate impact . but i think what we 're seeing is increasing good practice in this area as the pdg develops and as our understanding of our school-to-school working in our self-improving school system also develops . i think we 're seeing better usage of the money year on year . lynne neagle am: thank you . llyr on this . llyr gruffydd am: you mentioned some schools will be moving from the tried-and-tested interventions , really , and i 'm just wondering to what extent that evolution of use of pdg is being driven by cuts to core funding . kirsty williams am: no , i do n't think it 's being driven by cuts to core funding . i think there has been— . one of the biggest impacts of pdg has not been—well , i suppose it is the money in itself , because the money has concentrated the minds , has n't it ? so , one of the most important things that pdg has done is highlight the importance of this agenda within schools , and really raise this up in the thinking of leadership and senior management teams in our schools , and has driven a focus on scrutiny and accountability in the systems that are working with our schools . i think the changing use of pdg reflects the journeys that schools have been on , some of them from a very low base where this was not a priority for them , to better understanding , and as research and as intelligence grows over time in this area , both in wales and outside of wales , schools are increasingly learning to use that evidence to tailor approaches in their schools . llyr gruffydd am: so you would n't accept at all that some of this money 's being used to paper over some funding cracks from elsewhere . because the unions and some others have told us that , whether we like it or not , there is some of that going on . kirsty williams am: as i said , llyr , we 're very clear about the usage that this money can be spent on in terms of individuals or universal application within schools , and that forms an important part of the checks and balances that we have in our system . can we continue to improve , and ensure that more and more of our schools are employing best practice ? yes , we can , and as i 've said , we 've taken steps to put in place the infrastructure to support that . lynne neagle am: thank you . mark 's questions are next . mark reckless am: cabinet secretary , how would you assess the impact of pdg on attendance and hopefully subsequent engagement with education from children who have free school meals ? kirsty williams am: i think what 's important to note is that , as estyn have themselves said , over the period of the last inspection report , we have seen improvements in attendance , but i do think we need to , again , look at how pdg can support this particular agenda . and as always in the welsh education system , there are some excellent examples of how schools use the money to address this . ysgol y preseli in pembrokeshire is a very good example of how they 've deployed their money . forgive me ; i ca n't off the top of my head remember the name of the primary school i visited , again in north wales , where the school has proactively used this money , and they actually send teaching assistants out of school in the morning before the start of the school day , and they actually have a walking bus . they call at homes for children , and they walk the children to the breakfast club . so , they 're proactively going out into the community and making sure that those children are in the classrooms , because the teacher said , 'we recognised we had a problem with attendance . we tried a variety of means of improving that , but in the end we have taken this quite bold step—we actually send the staff out and they create that walking bus , and they walk the children into school ' . they say that they know that , for some of those children , because of the difficult circumstances they and their families are living in , they probably would n't be in school if it was n't for that proactive approach . so , we 're looking again at what more we can do to support this particular agenda in terms of improving attendance , because although , again , there are examples of good practice , there is still a gap between the attendance of free-school-meal pupils and non-free-school-meal pupils . and , of course , we can have the best curriculum in the world with really high-quality teaching , but unless the children are in the classes then we 're not going to make the difference for them . whilst that differential exists , then it 's going to be hard to close the attainment gap for those children . mark reckless am: i was actually quite shocked just reading in advance of this meeting that the proportion attending 95 per cent or more , who have pretty full attendance , was only 35 per cent for free-school-meal children at level 4 , compared to 60 per cent for non-free-school-meal pupils . it still is an extraordinary difference . my colleague here showed me , i think , last week , a graph showing the link between attendance and attainment , in particular . when people were absent , a lot of the— . as i 'm sure you 're aware , there 's a huge connection . what more can pdg do to deal with it ? in the example you give i can see how a school with an awful lot of free-school-meal children could do that , but a lot of the free-school-meal children are actually in schools that do n't have that high a proportion of free school meals , where it would be much more challenging to bring in that type of initiative . kirsty williams am: yes , indeed , and i think it gets more challenging the older the children get . i think it 's more difficult to find interventions that are successful higher up , so key stage 4. so , you can do a walking bus with little ones , ca n't you , but i do n't suppose your average 15 or 16-year-old is going to take very kindly to that . so , you do need a different approach to that . but again , we see in ysgol y preseli the employment of staff to directly work with families of older children to reinforce the messages around , as you quite rightly say , the linkage between attendance and attainment , and really work with individual families to understand the barriers to attendance : what 's going on in the family that is preventing that child from going to school , and what more can the school do to address those situations . but you 're absolutely right ; there is more that we need to do to address this particular agenda of attainment . i do n't know if there 's anything extra you wanted to add , steve . steve davies: there is also another very good example—and i take what you say about where there are small numbers—but in our secondary schools where there are significant numbers , they 're investing pdg in resources like a school nurse and a school counsellor , not just to work with the children but link to other agencies on whom the children and the families are dependent to support them in terms of working with schools . so , it 's something , particularly in our most challenging areas , where it can not just be delivered within the school . so , good use of that resource is being made to employ people to support them in those wider areas . mark reckless am: thank you . to what extent is pdg also used to seek to reduce the higher rates of exclusion for children entitled to free school meals ? kirsty williams am: so , if we looked at permanent exclusions , there is n't a differential , but if we look at temporary exclusions , there we see there is a disproportionate number of children on free school meals that are subject to those exclusions . again , i think what schools employing best practice understand is that you need a multi-agency approach to supporting that particular child . some of those exclusions can be as a result of the need to address other issues going on in a child 's life . so , this is where we come back to the committee 's work , for instance , on mental health and support for children , support for behaviour in school . so , again , it 's a multi-agency approach that i think we need , and , in our good schools , our really , really good schools , there 's a recognition of that need to have a whole team around a child to support that child in education . with eotas , we made some changes last year regarding pdg for eotas . so , for those children who do find themselves in education other than at school , we are providing additional support that previously was not available . mark reckless am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . we 're going to move on now to talk about the impact of pdg on attainment . hefin david has got some questions . hefin david am: it appears that the attainment gap at 2017 has actually widened , in spite of pdg levels . is that correct ? kirsty williams am: yes . so , if you look at it—with the usual caveats about whether you can make direct comparisons on level 2 plus between the exams the year before and the exams that we had last summer—on the face of it , the gap has increased . i think what 's important to recognise , hefin , is a direction of travel . i 'm sure we all want to , because i want to , have a discussion about why children on free school meals were less resilient in the exam system last year . but , if we look at the period that we have been employing pdg , over that period , we have seen a narrowing of the gap . i think what 's quite stark , if we think about it— . so , if we look at where we started from : in 2009 , one in five children on free school meals got level 2 plus—one in five—by 2016 , we had got that down to one in three . obviously , there 's still a way to go , but , sir alasdair , who knows about these things , says that that is a significant improvement . last year , we got some challenges . we need to understand why that happened , but i do think it's— hefin david am: why , do you think ? kirsty williams am: why , do i think ? what i do think is there is no one answer . there is no one answer to this . i think we could look at and we can have discussions around the move from btec to science gcses . i think we have supplied figures to the committee about the significant change in the number of children on free school meals who were n't doing a single science gcse and are now doing science gcses . we can look at the unintended consequences of literature . again , we 've supplied figures . where children have done language and literature , whether that be through the medium of english or through the medium of welsh , there is more resilience . so , it 's that exposure to literacy in all its forms that i think could potentially make a difference . so , i think there 's no one answer to why free-school-meal children were not so resilient last year . we continue to have discussions with qualifications wales to get a better understanding of this . at my next ministerial policy board , in may , we 'll be doing a deep dive into this particular subject . hefin david am: so , to what extent would exam boards be responsible for lack of grade stability ? kirsty williams am: it could be one of the contributory factors . what i think is important is that there is no one , single reason why there seems to be less resilience in this cohort of children . hefin david am: will you be speaking to the exam boards about this and raising concerns ? kirsty williams am: i have written to qualifications wales , we 've had discussions about it , but i 've asked them to formally submit evidence ahead of my policy board for may , where , as i said , we will be doing a formal , deep-dive discussion across the department about these issues . but , again , hefin , what we 've got to be clear on is—while we look at overall factors , you know , our overall national statistic—we did see some schools last year whose fsm performance was better than it had been the year before . so , what was it in those schools that enabled those children to do really well , whereas , in other schools , the performance was different ? even in individual cities , you can see a huge variety of performance . so , take cardiff and swansea , our two biggest cities . you 've got schools in those cities with comparative levels of free school meals . so , you could have really high-performing schools with a very small number of the cohort on free school meals . the difference between those performances in a single city—so , that 's the same local education authority and the same regional consortium—you can see a massive change . there 's one school i can talk to : their free-school-meal performance is 88 per cent . a similar school in the same city with the same proportion of children on free school meals , their performance is down in the 20 per cents . so , i think what 's important is that we ca n't draw broad-brush conclusions . for me , the challenge is to go into individual schools and understand what was happening in that particular school that ensured that their children did really well . we 've got one school in swansea , their fsm performance at gcse level 2 outperforms non-fsm pupils . hefin david am: but we still need to rely on the trends from a distance . if we take your argument that 2017 was an unusual year and the trends up to 2016 were positive , in a few years ' time , when we will be looking back in two years ' time , how are we going to measure this progress , say , in 2019 ? what are we likely to see and what methods are you going to use to measure progress that way ? kirsty williams am: well , you 'll be aware that we are moving away from level 2 plus as a performance measure anyway because of the— hefin david am: so , what performance measures will you use ? kirsty williams am: so , for the lack of sophistication around the level 2 plus , and for the unintended behaviours that that particular performance measure has driven within our schools . i 'll be making a statement shortly to the assembly around a new performance measure for schools . we were , at our most recent secondary heads conference , working with schools to develop that . what 's important to me is that we have a more sophisticated model that looks at school performance for all children . what level 2 plus does is narrow , very much , the focus of schools on an individual part of the cohort , usually the c/d borderline , which is why then we have problems with the number of students getting a b grade or above . we have marked success in our schools by saying to schools that a c is good enough . well , if a child gets a c but came to you in year 7 and they were destined to get an e , yes , indeed , a c is a success , because you 've moved that child on ; but , if that child came to you destined to get an a * and gets a c , then we have n't done a good job by that particular child . so , we need a performance measure that is much more sophisticated , looks at each individual child , tracks that progress , and measures the value added by that school in performance . hefin david am: last question : therefore , should we have confidence in the data up to 2016 ? is there a lack of confidence in that data ? kirsty williams am: no , it 's not a lack of confidence in the data . the data is the data . what i 'm saying is , using that as a performance measure and an accountability measure within our school system may have been right for the time . i think it is now right to have a different way of measuring success in schools . i think that particular set of performance measures has driven certain behaviours—not because ministers wanted that to happen , but as an unintended consequence . i think we can work together with our school system , learning the lessons of international best practice , to develop much more sophisticated accountability and performance measures for individual schools , and , i should say , for the government . so , you will be aware of my intention to issue the first national report card on government performance later on this year . so , this is not about trying to avoid scrutiny . it 's about trying to develop a more sophisticated way , which is in line with our national mission , where every child 's education is valued , and where the impact of the school can be tracked more effectively . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . can i just ask , cabinet secretary , are you still holding on to your target of 37 per cent of free-school-meal pupils achieving the level 2 threshold ? kirsty williams am: well , we 're moving away from the level 2 threshold . so , that 's the first thing to say . so , we will want to develop a new suite , in line with our new accountability measures , as we go forward . so , we will be absolutely continuing to track and evaluate the performance of free-school-meal pupils . when we announce our new accountability measures , i will be in a position to address how we 'll measure the government's performance , and national performance , going forward . but , given the fact that we 're moving away from level 2 plus , then we will need a different set of performance indicators . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the next questions are on looked-after children and adopted children , and i 've got questions from michelle then mark . michelle brown am: thank you . good morning— mark reckless am: i was to come in first , i think . i was about to ask about icf consulting . lynne neagle am: go on then . mark reckless am: i think my questions are first , but , michelle , please do correct me if you were planning to come in before . the pdg for looked-after children does n't quite seem to have the degree of visibility as the pdg for the free-school-meals . i think we had the mori/wiserd survey—only 15 per cent of primary schools and 23 per cent of secondary schools were aware that pdg was targeted at looked-after children . i just wonder—can you clarify on the record here what is the role of schools with pdg for looked-after children as compared to the regional consortia in this field ? kirsty williams am: okay . i think it is absolutely fair to say that most awareness around pdg is around free school meals . there is less awareness around the availability of pdg to support looked-after children . i think that 's probably in the nature of the cohort , so , there are more children subject to free school meals than are subject to being looked after . so , i think that 's part of the explanation . a decision was taken in 2015 to regionalise pdg for looked-after children . my understanding was that the thinking behind that at the time was around a greater strategic deployment of that resource and to try and drive a greater impact than how it was being used previously . so , looked-after pdg is held at a regional level . we have looked-after children pdg co-ordinators—they 're in their second year this year—to look at a regional deployment of that resource . and that resource can be done in a variety of ways , through individual allocation to a school to support an individual child , through to capacity building for the whole system . so , for instance , if i give you an example , in carmarthenshire , there 's been a big emphasis on attachment disorder and training teachers with regard to the impact of attachment disorder . carmarthenshire happens to be one of those local authorities that does quite well in terms of attainment for looked-after children . but , clearly , i have—not concerns . 'concerns ' is n't the right word . but i have asked officials to give greater scrutiny to how that resource has been used in the last year . steve , on my behalf , wrote out to the system , setting out our expectations , but also advising them of the fact we will be asking very detailed questions of accountability for that money . so , what has that money been used on and how can you account for the effect ? but , steve , maybe you can give some greater detail . steve davies: i think the challenge that— . one of the rationales for shifting—not that all the money stays in the region , but having a regional strategic support—was that , historically , the money was going directly with that child to the school . given the quite often rapid turnover of children in schools—the very nature of looked-after children is they do sometimes move through foster parents—historically , what happened , the money lands in the school , because , at that time in the year , when it 's measured , the school gets the money and can spend it on some additional support for staff , but quite often that child moves on to another school and the money does n't transfer . some schools will go through quite a number of years without having a looked-after child and will not think strategically , 'how do i need to support them ? ' so , that was the rationale of the shift . in terms of the implementation of the regional allocation , as of this financial year finishing , we are going into local authorities and regions to evaluate where they 've located the resource , what the impact of that resource has been , so that is reinforced and shared more widely . kirsty williams am: and then , to reassure , it 's not just internally that we 're looking at this . we have a contract with an external agency to do an evaluation— mark reckless am: that 's icf consulting . kirsty williams am: yes . yes , so that was done in the autumn of last year , because , as i said , we had concerns about whether this was really having the effect that was intended . so , my expectation is that we will be in a position to receive that report later on this spring , and of course it would be my intention that that report would be made public for people to have a look at what— mark reckless am: that was commissioned last autumn— kirsty williams am: yes , in november 2017 . mark reckless am: november 2017 . kirsty williams am: so , i 'm hoping to have that published before the summer recess . i 'm very reluctant to say months ; i 've learnt not to say months , because they move . lynne neagle am: i 'm going to go to michelle now , mark , because— mark reckless am: sure . i will come back in if i have anything further to ask here after michelle . lynne neagle am: —both of you asked for these questions , and that 's what the pre-meeting is for . mark reckless am: michelle , i defer to you . lynne neagle am: michelle . michelle brown am: okay , thank you . would you be open , cabinet secretary , to the idea of adjusting the eligibility of the pdg so that pupils who have been looked after or adopted at any point within a previous given period of time would attract the pdg , rather than only if they 're looked-after on a one-off date ? kirsty williams am: as i said earlier , in questions from , i think it was , llyr , who was talking about concepts of concepts of ever 6 , we are constantly looking at how we can get that balance between focus and flexibility for this resource . llyr opened with the question of , 'how can you absolutely ensure that these children are getting the money ? ' , but then there 's also a tension about how can you create some flexibility around the school 's usage of the grant . so , we will look at that . i think there is the issue of where a school would know of a child that was looked after . issues around adoption are slightly more sensitive , because we could n't force a family to tell a school that their child was an adopted child . so , a family may be very open and very keen to explain that to a school , but we ca n't necessarily track as closely children who have been adopted , especially if that adoption happens before the child goes to school . we ca n't be in a position of forcing families to disclose this information if they do n't want to , but we certainly can , as i say , look to strengthen our monitoring arrangements around pdg support for looked-after children and the impact that that 's having . i just think we need to be a bit mindful of people 's privacy in some instances . if they do n't want to divulge that , it would n't be my job to tell a family , 'you have to let us know if your child is adopted . ' lynne neagle am: michelle . michelle brown am: fair enough ; thank you for that answer . the eas consortium 's approach to using the looked-after and adopted pdg is to use it as part of a broader approach targeted at vulnerable learners in general . what are your views on that approach ? kirsty williams am: i 'm a great believer in if we can get it right for our most vulnerable learners , we 'll be getting it right for all of our learners . i gave the example earlier , for instance , of attachment disorder , and , chair , you will know that i have had conversations . one of the emerging themes for me , as i go around visiting schools , is the impact and the growing awareness and the growing numbers of children who have attachment disorder , and how schools are best able to respond to that in their children . so , for instance , as i said about carmarthenshire , there 's been a huge effort to address that in the school sector in carmarthenshire . now , that has a disproportionate benefit for those children , because you 're more likely to see attachment disorder in children who are care experienced , because of the nature of the lives that those children have lived , but that does n't necessarily mean that attachment disorder is exclusively found in those children that are looked after . it can be found in other families as well . so , that vulnerable learner , regardless of their background , will benefit from having teachers who are better trained , understanding and have intervention strategies in place to be able to address that need . steve davies: i think it 's also important to add that this is not one region 's approach ; this is across four regions , so the others— . for example , erw have run a significant programme looking at the impact of adverse childhood experiences on pupils , which has enabled teachers to detect some of the impact of some of those and then considers some of the work they need to do within the school but also with other agencies . so , it is something that's applied consistently across the four regions . kirsty williams am: i was in pil primary school recently where they use their pdg , both fsm pdg , and no doubt an element of pdg for looked-after , for nurture groups . so , for those children who really , really find it very difficult to be in the main classroom , they can have that nurture group experience to address issues around emotional behaviour , feelings , and it gets them in a position where they are able then to join the main classroom because issues around behaviour have been addressed and they 're in a better position to learn . so , again , this is an example of how vulnerable learners in the wider sense can benefit . lynne neagle am: okay . mark , did you have anything you wanted to ask ? mark reckless am: yes . can i follow up on tracking adopted children ? i entirely understand that you ca n't force parents to disclose that their child is adopted . however , my understanding was that , in england , there was a dataset with social services that was shared with schools in a way that i 'm not clear is happening in wales and how , if at all , that links to the pupil level annual school census data . perhaps sort of linked to that , is n't there an argument for making the parents of adopted children in the schools , potentially , with adopted children more aware that adopted children who were previously looked after have this potential grant , and would they not be more willing to disclose this , at least confidentially to the school and government , if they knew there was this upside of doing so ? kirsty williams am: we 're actively looking at whether we should try and find a way of collecting this data , with the caveats that i just gave earlier . we ca n't force parents to divulge information that is a matter for them , nor would i want to . but there is an active discussion going on at the moment about whether we could create a dataset where people divulge this information and we can then track the children through . you 're absolutely right . one of the ways in which we can often encourage take-up , for instance , of free school meals , especially in those communities where there is a sense of reluctance to apply for support—even though people are entitled to it , there 's a reluctance to do it ; sometimes we see this in rural areas— . actually , appealing to the parents by saying , 'actually , this will mean more money for your child 's school budget' is a much more compelling reason why people will apply for it then saying , 'actually , it 's going to help you ' , because they do n't want to be seen being dependent , they do n't want to be seen being helped . but , if you say to them , 'actually , do you know that this means more money for your child 's school ? ' , they go , 'oh , all right then , i 'll fill in the forms now . ' so , you 're right , i think there is something that we could do to make parents understand , in the round , that this has an impact . but we are actively looking at and discussing whether we could create a dataset around adopted children and how we can do that in line with data protection and data sharing . one of the things i am concerned about in the performance of looked-after children generally is how we can , across government , work more closely together . we ca n't see the educational attainment of looked-after children just being a job of education . it 's got to be a job of social services and the health service as well . there 's got to be a joined-up approach to doing that . now , officials were at the ministerial advisory group that 's chaired by david melding on prospects for looked-after children . they were there at the group last week . david tells me that the paper was very positively received by the group . i will be sitting down with david melding to talk through what more we can do on the education side . i think there 's really an appetite between me and the minister for children to get a closer working relationship on this . we ca n't expect schools to do it on their own and alone . and there are things that we can do out there in local authorities to help improve outcomes . it 's not just about the pdg ; it is about , when social services are thinking about a placement , where does the discussion about where children are going to go to school—when does that take place ? do we talk about the placement , move a child and then think , 'oh my goodness me , what are we going to do about the schooling ? ' if you can imagine , the school could have been working really , really hard with a pupil to get them in a good place , to get them being able to access the curriculum , and then social services decide that the placement is being changed . so , we potentially lose all of that . so , a greater involvement in education and better linked-up working in local authorities will help us with this . it ca n't be just the job of the pdg . if we think we can crack this with just pdg , then we 're being delusional . it has to be a cross-government approach at a national level , and at a local government level as well , to get this right . sometimes , data protection—how can we break down some of these barriers between , you know , the school does n't need to , schools should n't see , the entire social services report ? well , maybe the school does need to see some of that background information if they 're going to have an impact for that child . so , there 's more work to do , but it can not be just the job of education on its own if we 're going to make a difference , nor can it just be the job of the pdg to make a difference for those children . lynne neagle am: thank you . julie 's got some more questions on the impact on adopted and looked-after children . julie morgan am: yes , before i go on to those , i just wanted to support , really , what mark was saying about adopted children and how important it is , i think , that the adoptive parents feel able to speak to the school and to give information . because certainly any evidence we 've had from adoptive parents , and generally knowing about what adoptive parents do feel , is that they often feel that there 's a degree of a lack of sensitivity in the school about the issues of adoption . i would certainly support some move towards ensuring that the atmosphere was open in a way that would encourage them to realise that it would be a help for the children if there was an awareness in the school . so , i just wanted to really reinforce that . kirsty williams am: yes , and that would chime with what i hear from many adoptive parents . i 'm just trying to be sensitive by saying we ca n't force people to divulge this information if they do n't want to . julie morgan am: no , but they need to be given the opportunity . kirsty williams am: yes , you 're right . we need to make sure that those parents feel that they can discuss this with school leaders and classroom teachers and explore how best those individual children can be supported , and how best we can support parents . because , again—and i 've said this a lot—after the quality of teaching , the second biggest impact on a child 's educational outcome will be parental engagement . so , being able to create an environment where adoptive parents feel very confident and able to talk about their children 's education is absolutely crucial if we 're going to get that parental engagement that we need for all of our children . julie morgan am: yes . thank you . going on to looked-after children , you say that the latest data on looked-after children 's attainment is extremely disappointing . can you expand on that and what effect the pdg has had in this result , or not had ? kirsty williams am: well , there 's no getting away from it : the way in which we currently measure outcomes for looked-after children , the results are not good enough . it 's a source of huge concern to me that we need to do better for those children . that 's why officials are engaging with the group that david melding is chairing , to make sure that education is integral to that group and it 's not lost sight of . there 's a discussion to be had about the cohort , whether it 's right and correct to compare looked-after children to the main cohort , or whether these statistics are useful in any way . sometimes as well—this is not to make an excuse because , as i 've said in my paper , it 's extremely disappointing , but sometimes it can be really difficult . because the cohort sometimes can be very , very small , it can swing the statistics to look perhaps more dramatic . julie morgan am: i think , generally , when you look at how looked-after children do— kirsty williams am: it 's not good . julie morgan am: —in a much wider evaluation , they 're not doing well , are they ? kirsty williams am: they 're not doing well . so , that 's why we 've got the review , the independent review , into the impact of the pdg in this area . this is why steve is doing the work that he is doing with the regional consortia because , clearly , at the moment , we are not doing what we need to do for that particular cohort of children . i would not make any bones about that at all . steve davies: i think we will not move away from the fact that these children need good gcses to gain employment , so we 'll continue to measure that . i think we need to look at more nuanced evaluations of the data at a lower level . so , for example , there were significant improvements in terms of pdg pupils who got three and four good gcses but did n't get past the threshold . that 's not to cover anything that is not working in terms of improvement , but we will look at the full range and still hold on to the fact that we have to look at a measure that relates to the likelihood of these children going on to further education and training . julie morgan am: and then just one more question about the exclusion rates amongst looked-after children . they are , i understand , over six times more likely to be given a fixed-term exclusion . so , is there any way of trying to address this ? is the pdg used for anything to do with exclusions ? kirsty williams am: we can look at exclusions . we also have to read across about how the whole system works , not just the pdg element of the system . so , we know , for example , that 66 per cent of looked-after learners have some additional learning need , so we ca n't just look at it in terms of this particular source of funding ; we have to look at it at a wider level of support . so , given that the majority of those children will have an aln , how can we make sure that our new aln legislation and our new aln regime meets the needs of these children ? so , i think what we 're looking at , again , is to say that it ca n't be just the job of the pdg . that 's there as an additional level of support , but actually , we 've got to get our aln right . unless we get our aln right , lots and lots of these children are not going to get the support that they need day in , day out via that system . we do know that sometimes , if we 're not addressing aln , then we 're not addressing behaviour issues that then potentially lead to an expulsion or potentially lead to non-attendance . so , we 've got to look at it in the round and recognise the connections between the sometimes quite complex needs that these children have within the school setting , that are not just as a result of the fact that they 're looked after ; they have other needs as well . steve davies: and investment in well-being— kirsty williams am: absolutely . steve is reminding me that that 's why well-being is part of the national mission—to address issues around supporting children with their well-being , which is a way of keeping them in school . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 're going to move on to schools challenge cymru now . llyr . llyr gruffydd am: thank you , chair . i was just wondering what your assessment is as to why some schools made progress and others did n't . kirsty williams am: i think we have to recognise that the 39 schools that were part of the programme were in very , very different places . so , i think one of the reasons why some schools did well was because their needs were not so complex , not so deep-seated and a certain level of intervention was enough to get them moving forward . some schools had very , very different needs . i think , talking to those involved in the programme , as always , we had some support advisers , challenge advisers working with those schools as part of the programme who were really , really excellent and really good , and were the right fit for the school and really drove the school onwards . we had other people employed in the programme who , perhaps , were less effective at driving change within those individual schools . so , what we have is a mixed bag of performance , again reflecting the very different challenges that those schools were facing , which led them to be chosen for the programme in the first place . llyr gruffydd am: yes , okay— steve davies: sorry . one of the other key additional factors was the extent to which there had been recent appointment of a new headteacher to that school just before the programme had started , because— kirsty williams am: leadership is all . llyr gruffydd am: and that was seen as a positive . steve davies: a positive , yes . i think one of the challenges is that sometimes the time it takes to make changes in leadership can be protracted and can be a barrier , sometimes , to the speed with which you can move . but , for a significant minority of the schools , there had been recent new appointments of headteachers , which was seen to be contributing , when you looked at the evaluation , to the speed with which they were able to engage . llyr gruffydd am: the reason i was asking was i wanted to understand what lessons the government is taking from that three-year investment , really , and how , maybe , you 're applying some of those lessons to your wider school improvement programme . i know professor mel ainscow identified six interconnected lessons , although i also note that the cabinet secretary did n't actually meet him for about six or seven months after coming into post . so , i 'm just wondering , can you give us confidence that , actually , you are serious about taking lessons from schools challenge cymru and applying them to the wider school improvement agenda ? kirsty williams am: well , absolutely , llyr . i do n't think anything should be read into when i met the individual concerned , because officials were meeting the individual concerned . individual challenge advisers were meeting with the regions , there was crossover work with the fsm agenda as well , and we are absolutely determined that best practice and those interventions that drove school improvement are embedded in the new support that we have via the regional consortia . it 's no coincidence that some of the best people that were employed by schools challenge cymru are now in the employment of our regional consortia . so , those people that were really good and really made a difference do n't work for the schools challenge cymru scheme any more , they work for our regional school improvement services . so , we 're absolutely determined . the things that we have learned , as always , are around leadership . it is absolutely key and crucial to have strong , capable school leadership as a driver for change within the system . we 're looking at systems and processes , so , actually , has a school got in place comprehensive systems of tracking and processes within the school ? we 're looking at the teacher quality—how can we ensure that we have got consistent strategies in place to drive up pedagogy and teacher quality in the classroom ? collaborative activity—again , absolutely key . a school can not see itself in isolation , and one of the key themes of the national mission is a self-improving system , so , collaborative working where schools are looking outside of each other , learning from best practice from other schools . so , there are lots of things that we 've drawn from the evaluation that you will see as key themes running through the national mission , and , as i said , it 's no coincidence that our really good people that were working in schools challenge cymru are now working for the regional consortia , being able to use that expertise not just for a very small proportion of our schools—but that expertise is available to all our schools . llyr gruffydd am: although estyn has told us , of course , that you ca n't expect the consortia to really carry on with that level of intervention and the same kind of intensity as was provided previously , so i 'm just wondering— kirsty williams am: in what way ? llyr gruffydd am: well , we were told by estyn in evidence that they did n't necessarily think that we could expect the consortia to provide the same type of tailored support , and certainly the level of intensity with the improvement boards and everything— kirsty williams am: well , the improvement boards are carrying on , so the improvement boards still exist , and i would—not that i want to argue with estyn— llyr gruffydd am: well , feel free ; this is your opportunity to do so if you— kirsty williams am: what i would say is that those improvement boards are staying on , and our schools categorisation system is used to identify the level of support . now , if you 're a red school , that gives you the entitlement to 25 days of support . that is more than you would have got under the schools challenge cymru programme , which would 've been 20 days . so , actually , moving to this system allows us to really focus in on those schools that need that intensive level of support . and what 's important for me , llyr , in this , okay , is that those schools are not necessarily just the schools that were in the programme . our system now of challenge , advice and support allows us to target resources across all of our schools and across all of our sectors , because you 'll be aware that schools challenge was only available to secondary schools , not available to primary schools . what our system now allows us to do , via the schools categorisation , is to identify schools , wherever they are in wales and whatever sector they 're in , to have that intensive level of support that they need to make improvements . llyr gruffydd am: so , you 're confident that that level of momentum is continuing through the consortia that was previously enjoyed by those particular schools , and you 're also confident that there is minimal risk that they 'll slip back to where they were , potentially , or at least part of the way back . kirsty williams am: well , actually , there are some really good examples of some of the schools challenge cymru schools making that sustained improvement now that the programme has come to an end . you only have to look at tredegar , where we have seen continual improvement and moving up through the categorisation system . that school is now a green school , so they 've been able to sustain their progress at the end of the programme . if we look at armando in eastern high school , again—gosh , my goodness me , we had lots of debates in a previous chamber about the future of eastern . there was one person that said that eastern had to be closed and that the only way forward for that particular school was for it to be shut down , but what we have seen is investment via schools challenge cymru , but ongoing , continual support from the regional consortium , and that school has come out of special measures . i pay absolute tribute to the staff of that school and that community that have done such a good job . so , i 'm absolutely convinced that where we 've got good leadership and good support , some of those schools are making continued , sustained progress even after the end of the programme . the challenge for me is for those schools that schools challenge cymru did n't work for , and we have n't seen that progress—how we can use our school improvement system now to continue to work with those schools to give them the level of support that they need to make a difference . so that 's what my focus is on now : a whole-system approach , rather than choosing 39 schools to get that level of support , when we recognise that there are schools everywhere , potentially , that need intervention , support and challenge , and in the primary sector as well . llyr gruffydd am: okay . so , you would n't agree with a number of—well , the near-unanimous evidence that we 've had from academics , some of whom are government advisers from consortia et cetera , that this kind of programme such as schools challenge cymru would probably need about five years to really have the impact that it was intended to have . kirsty williams am: what i would say is that , from my understanding , from the outset , it was a time-limited programme . the schools were aware of that . there were no surprises that it was supposed to be a time-limited programme . evidence from across the uk showed that school challenge programmes have differed in time . so , for instance , manchester 's challenge was a three-year programme . so , there 's no consensus about how many years you need to run a programme for . the previous minister was quite clear about the time-limited nature of the programme . that 's not to say it was the wrong decision , because what 's important , and an ongoing legacy of the programme , was the investment in regional school improvement capacity , because at the time our school improvement services and the regions were young , in their infancy . the ability of individual local authorities to make a difference , with so many local authorities in an estyn categorisation , was limited , so one of the ongoing legacies of the programme is that significant investment of over £10 million in the capacity of the regions to be able to continue this support and the school improvement work . llyr gruffydd am: so , how disappointed were you that the money for schools challenge cymru went back into reserves and did n't stay in your envelope , as you described it earlier ? i presume you made a pitch for it . did you make a case for that money to stay within your department ? kirsty williams am: llyr , we are constantly having discussions with the minister for finance around support for the education budget . the minister for finance was quite clear that it was a time-limited programme . we were able to secure investment from the finance minister to be able to secure the programme and run it and phase it out to make sure there was transition support , so as we moved from the schools challenge programme into the regional consortia , there were resources to do that . llyr gruffydd am: did you feel there was a case to be made to add to the consortia 's resources and be able to continue that level of support that schools had previously had ? kirsty williams am: well , we did make resources available to the regional consortia to do that . as i say , from the outset , the previous minister was very clear it was a time-limited programme . certainly the schools that i talk to— . and i want to be absolutely clear : i have visited many , many schools challenge cymru schools . i have used that opportunity to talk to them about—heolddu being one of them , hefin , which we went to visit , and willows , for instance . i 'm going to one this afternoon—i 'm going to st illtyd 's this afternoon , and i always take— . i 've been to caergybi in anglesey . i always take the opportunity to speak to those teachers about their experience of the programme and to understand and assure myself that they are getting ongoing support that they see as an appropriate level for them . i think i 've done 19 of the schools . lynne neagle am: hefin on this . hefin david am: with regard to it being a time-limited programme , the previous minister was clear that it was a time-limited programme , but it was n't quite as time-limited as you 've decided to be . is that fair to say ? kirsty williams am: no , it was supposed to be a three-year programme at the most . so , there 's no differential between when i decided it was time-limited and the expectations— hefin david am: so the time limit was the same that the previous minister put on it . kirsty williams am: yes . no change . llyr gruffydd am: but mel ainscow did tell us that there was a fade out in that third year—not that people were giving up , do n't get me wrong , but clearly there was n't that commitment coming from government because the decision had been made , and people felt that it was just fizzling out a little bit , and that impacted on the momentum . kirsty williams am: i would n't characterise it as that . i think there certainly was a transition phase when we knew that the programme was moving and schools were moving into a different level of support , but i certainly would n't describe it as a fading out—not at all . as i said , we were aware that the programme was transitioning and we were determined to get that right for those individual schools , and to learn the lessons and , crucially , to be able to apply those lessons right across the board . steve davies: i can see where the perception would come if a programme director like mel was managing the programme right to the end of the three years exactly the same , and it falls off—not a cliff , but it falls off , then the readiness for schools and the readiness in the system to hand over—so part of the shift of focus was that working as a government with the programme in those schools to working with the programme , those schools and the region . so , i think , inevitably , one party might see it as a decrease in terms of emphasis on their work , but it was necessary for the transition . llyr gruffydd am: but does that cast a bit of a shadow over the transition , then—that one key player within that process felt as such , or are you confident that that was managed well and effectively ? kirsty williams am: i think it was managed well , and we were very clear to recognise success where success has been achieved , but not to gloss over where the programme had not made an impact , because that would n't be good for anybody . there was a formal event to close the programme , which gave everybody an opportunity to get together , to be formally thanked , and for , as i said , congratulations to be given to those people who had really made a difference and , crucially , key staff transferred over into the regional consortia . so , for those individuals , they were able to continue their work , but just be able to apply that work on a regional basis rather than just in an individual school . so , i do n't see that there was any fading out , but there was a transition into a new system , and many of those key personnel transitioned into the system with us . lynne neagle am: have you got any figures for the numbers of staff who went from the programme into the consortia ? kirsty williams am: not off the top of my head , but i can let you know . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got darren first , then mark . kirsty williams am: and can i just say , i met with some of them ? i met with a selection of those people who had been involved in the programme to get their feedback on what they felt had gone right , and what they did n't feel had gone right in the programme . so , i took the time not just to meet the figurehead of the programme , but actually to meet the people who were doing the work in the individual schools . sorry . darren millar am: yes , i just wanted to ask you , you mentioned the figurehead there , i assume by 'the figurehead ' you mean professor ainscow . and you 've mentioned as well that you said you wanted to learn lessons from schools challenge cymru , but he told us that nobody had been in touch with him since march of last year in order to have any sort of follow-up engagement , or to have a dialogue about his perspective on what worked , what did n't work , why there were failures in some areas and why there were successes in others . why have n't you sought that level of engagement with the person who was responsible for running the programme ? kirsty williams am: i 've had that conversation with mr ainscow . we had the evaluation of the programme . we 've spoken to the people who were actually involved in running the programme on a daily basis in individual schools . we 've spoken to the regional consortia . we 've spoken to local education authorities . we 've spoken to a wide variety of people to get their insight into the lessons learned , what was valuable and what was not valuable . so , a wide variety of people have been involved in those conversations . darren millar am: but you 've hardly engaged with mr ainscow—with professor ainscow himself . steve davies: i would actually say that i have had meetings— darren millar am: since march of last year . steve davies: yes , since march of last year . i have n't got the exact dates for you . i 've had discussions with mel ainscow , and my line manager at the time , owen evans , also had meetings and discussions . darren millar am: so , when he told us , 'since last march , i literally have had no contact at all with anybody from welsh government ' , he was telling porky pies , was he ? steve davies: that 's not my recollection . i 'll go back and check for you . lynne neagle am: if you could check and let us know , that would be good . mark . kirsty williams am: yes , well , i just talked about the celebration event to formally mark the end of the programme . my understanding was that it was july of last year , so people were engaged in that . and this idea that somebody has been ignored or frozen out is not how i see or how i regard that situation . lynne neagle am: mark . mark reckless am: i have to say , with professor ainscow my impression was he took great , great pride in the work that he 'd done with schools challenge cymru , and i think he really enjoyed the engagement , the work and the positive relations with the welsh government . but i think there was just a degree of disappointment , perhaps , that at least he did n't feel that he 'd been interrogated as much as he might have been about the lessons learned from the programme , and how perhaps to entrench those as well as possible with the regional consortia . i just wonder , cabinet secretary , if you could invite the professor in , perhaps to have a further debrief with you and take account of some of his thoughts and suggestions for what might help in this area . kirsty williams am: well , mark , as i said , i just do n't think it should be right to characterise this as a failure to engage with a single individual . mark reckless am: i 'm not characterising it that way , cabinet secretary . kirsty williams am: as i said , i met with him , steve has met with him , owen evans has met with him , my special policy adviser has met with him and had discussions . so , there has been an ongoing dialogue . but , mark , i hope that i have demonstrated since i took on this job that i am willing to work with a wide variety of people and to tap into their expertise if it can help me to deliver on the national mission . and if the advice to me is that we have n't sufficiently learnt the lessons , then i 'll gladly have another conversation . what i 'm saying to you—and i 'm absolutely confident—is that we have learnt the lessons , we are taking that work and the good practice forward , and we have done that with conversations with a wide variety of people who had a view on this , from individual schools that were involved in the programme , individual people who were working in those schools , local education authorities , some of which have been very scathing about the programme , i should say , regional consortia— . so , the lessons , i am confident , have been learnt . mark reckless am: i 'm glad to hear that , cabinet secretary , but i still say that , listening to professor ainscow 's evidence , there was a perception , at least from him individually , that the programme should not be seen to be a failure , but a desire that the lessons should be learnt and a feeling or exception , at least on his part , that there was more that he still had to contribute to the process . and just to take one particular example , i think he referred to the schools challenge cymru advisers being very successful in bringing in people who might not otherwise have contributed to this , and the regional consortia have had greater challenges in recruiting people , perhaps in some areas , of the same high standard of some particular individuals , but also from a wide range of different areas that the schools challenge cymru do , and that there could be more to learn in that area as to how to support real excellence and a greater diversity of recruitment for those people . is that something you could perhaps draw on his thoughts further about ? because i think he does feel that he has more to say to welsh government to help in this area . kirsty williams am: firstly , can i say that i have never described the programme as a failure ? i would understand , as someone who has put so much personal investment into the brand of schools challenges , that he would not want anybody to characterise that particular approach to school improvement as a failure . and i want to be absolutely clear that i have never described the programme as a failure , and i want to reassure mr ainscow of that . as i 've said , gosh , my goodness me , if you saw my e-mail inbox and you saw the letters that come in , people are never shy in coming forward to give me advice on what i need to do , what i need to do next , what i 'm doing right , what i 'm doing wrong , and , you know , our doors are always open to listen to people who have interesting things to say about how we can deliver our educational mission . so , people are n't slow in coming forward , i can assure you , with advice . lynne neagle am: julie . julie morgan am: just very quickly . i 'm sure the minister is aware that cardiff put extra funds of its own in to continue schools challenge cymru advisers . so , obviously , they appreciated the value of the scheme , but it does query whether it should have gone on longer . kirsty williams am: julie , i think , to be fair , there are some people who think the scheme was absolutely fantastic . i 've had feedback from people who did n't think the scheme was helpful at all—in fact , they felt it was a hindrance . i 'm very much of the view that the scheme worked really well for some schools in some areas and had less impact in some areas . there is a mixed picture . what 's important to me is that we understand what it was that led those schools to make those big changes , how we can—like mark talked about , the expertise—how we can keep that expertise in the system , and how we can apply the lessons to all schools . lynne neagle am: the next questions , and the final questions , are from john . so , we 're going to need succinct questions and succinct answers . john griffiths am: some questions on regional consortia , cabinet secretary , and , first of all , the role that you believe they should play and how schools use pdg . kirsty williams am: well , it 's an absolute— . it 's one of the things that i have been very clear to the regional consortia that i expect their challenge and support advisers to be asking schools about . so , one of the conversations that they need to have when they are in schools is exploring , with that school , how they are using their pdg , and how they 're demonstrating an impact for those resources . so , it 's a fundamental role for the challenge and support advisers in the regional consortia in their school improvement work . it 's crucial . john griffiths am: that sort of brings to mind some of the research that 's been done on the role of the challenge advisers , cabinet secretary , which suggested that they 're not actually challenging schools in that way , and that there 's very little evidence of schools changing their decisions on the use of pdg as a result of any challenge from those challenge advisers . so , how would you respond to those findings ? kirsty williams am: well , as i said , in my scrutiny of the role and success of our regional consortia , i specifically asked them about free-school-meal performance and the use of pdg within their particular region . i think there is increasing evidence to suggest that good use is being made of that resource , and i think that is being fed back into us . estyn tell us that it 's one of the areas of school expenditure that is closely linked to research and an evidence base . but , clearly , there is more to do , and that 's why we have appointed the new regional advisers for pdg going forward , because we think there can be improvements in how this agenda can be supported at a regional level . john griffiths am: okay . so , you would recognise the findings from that research . kirsty williams am: yes . there 's always more that we can do , and we are strengthening that role by the appointment of the new regional pdg advisers , so that individual school challenge advisers know what they should be looking for , know what they should be doing , and there is a regional approach to good practice . john griffiths am: okay . could you tell the committee , cabinet secretary , how effective you believe the relationship was between the schools challenge cymru programme and the regional consortia 's school improvement functions , and to what extent it varied by region ? kirsty williams am: i think it 's fair to say that , on occasion , i have received feedback that there was a conflict between what was going on at an individual school under the school improvement programme and whether , then , they welcomed support from the regional consortia as part of that . so , in some cases , if we 're being absolutely honest , there could sometimes be tensions between the two , but in most cases , the relationship was very , very positive and there was continuous feedback between the work going on in the schools under the programme and the regional consortia challenge advisers . but i 'm going to be blunt and honest with people—in some cases , it has been reported to me—it 's only anecdotal evidence ; i have n't got hard and fast evidence—that there sometimes was a conflict : 'we 're a school challenge school so we do n't need to participate or listen to any advice that 's coming from the regional consortia . ' or , a local education authority said to me , 'we felt that we could n't get involved in that school anymore because it was part of a different programme . ' those were isolated incidents , and , as i said , it 's only anecdotal feedback . in most cases , the relationship was a very positive one . steve davies: just very quickly , i think that , across the board , it was more complex in the beginning , getting— [ inaudible. ] . but when the programme itself recognised that they needed to work with the regions , and the regions needed to work with them—and i think mel ainscow in his evidence referred to this—it strengthened after some early challenges . i think mel ainscow was working in a number of regions—i ca n't remember which ones—so he 's established relationships— [ interruption . ] sorry ? kirsty williams am: central south . steve davies: central south . he has already been working in that , so i think it possibly had a stronger springboard in terms of the early working . kirsty williams am: because he already had relationships that he had already developed in that particular region . as always , with many of these things , it 's about individuals and relationships . john griffiths am: okay . finally from me , cabinet secretary : in 2015-16 , estyn reported on regional consortia not sufficiently focusing on particular groups of pupils and tracking their outcomes—for example , vulnerable pupils . i just wonder what you are able to tell us in terms of to what extent there has been necessary progress since 2015-16 . kirsty williams am: okay . well , i think it 's important to recognise that all four consortia underwent monitoring visits in the autumn of last year , of 2017 , which were n't reflected in the estyn annual report for 2015-16. estyn , through these 2017 inspections , have said that three out of the four regional consortia are making strong progress in their particular work , and we are continuing , as welsh government , to work with the other regional consortia to address the findings of the estyn report . john griffiths am: and that would include these particular issues . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . the committee probably has n't had an opportunity to see , but , only this morning , estyn has released a report on more able and talented , and has positive things to say in the field of more able and talented , which was being asked about earlier by members—you know , evidence of improved working and support in that particular arena . but , again , we need to ensure a consistency across all the regions , and that the findings of estyn 's most recent reports into regional performance are followed through . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . as we 've got a couple of minutes left , if i can just jump back to the issue of practical uses of the pdg—because it 's the only thing we have n't really covered and it would be good to get on the record—can i ask to what extent you 'd like to see the pdg used to track the progress of eligible pupils ? and the committee 's heard that there are several different tracking systems and tools used by schools . to what extent is that an issue to do with what the welsh government is promoting ? or is it down to consortia or individual schools ? and do you think there needs to be a more centralised push on how the tracking is undertaken ? kirsty williams am: firstly , can i say it 's absolutely crucial that we track performance , absolutely crucial ? that 's the bedrock . we do n't dictate to individual schools the nature of the system that they should employ in their school . there are a number of different programmes that allow schools to do this , but we are absolutely clear , and best practice and evidence shows us , that individual pupil tracking is key and crucial . and , as i said in the beginning , where we were n't tracking pupils at all , initial investment in pdg was used to establish these systems within schools . again , one of the outcomes from the schools challenge review , and one of the lessons learnt , was , again , the importance of individual tracking of pupils throughout their school career . but we do n't dictate a single system . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . kirsty williams am: but the principle is a really important one . lynne neagle am: okay , and you do n't think there 's more scope to look at what the best system is that can be recommended to schools . kirsty williams am: that 's not something we 're actively looking at . i am actively looking at developing a welsh toolkit around good practice , evidence base and research . at the moment we use the sutton trust toolkit , which is fine and excellent , but we are having active discussions about whether we 're in a position , now , to look at developing a suite of a welsh toolkit to support this agenda , and that 's under active consideration . lynne neagle am: okay . well , we 've reached the end of our session . can i thank the cabinet secretary and the officials for attending and for answering such a wide range of questions ? as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you again for coming . kirsty williams am: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: thank you . okay . item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the minister for children and social care on families first funding . paper to note 2 is a letter from the cabinet secretary for education , updating us on the supply teacher issue . paper to note 3—another letter from the cabinet secretary for education , providing further information following our meeting on 15 february . paper to note 4 is a letter from the wjec on availability of textbooks . paper to note 5—a letter from qualifications wales , also on availability of textbooks . and paper to note 6 is a letter from the cabinet secretary for education to the children 's commissioner for wales , following up on the dialogue that they 've been having about our inquiry . are members happy to note those ? thank you . item 4 , then , is for me to propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

according to kirsty williams , they are actively looking at whether they should try and find a way of collecting this data . they ca n't force parents to divulge information that is a matter for them . but there is an active discussion going on at the moment about whether they could create a dataset where people divulge this information and we can then track the children through . they ca n't see the educational attainment of looked-after children just being a job of education . it has to be a job of social services and the health service as well .

what does the group think of the exclusion rates amongst looked-after children ( over six times more likely to be given a fixed-term exclusion ) ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to this morning 's children , young people and education committee . we 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members who are present if they wish to declare any interests ? okay , thank you . item 2 this morning is our final evidence session for our inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams am , cabinet secretary for education ; steve davies , director of the education directorate ; and ruth conway , deputy director , support for learners division . welcome to all of you , and thank you for your attendance and also for the paper that you 've provided in advance . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions , and the first questions are from llyr gruffydd . llyr gruffydd am: bore da . i just want to start by asking some questions around the targeting of the pupil development grant because , clearly , we 've had a lot of evidence around this apparent blurring of eligibility to an extent . i 'm just wondering how comfortable you are that the money is being targeted appropriately because , clearly , it 's being targeted more widely than just those eligible for free school meals , from some of the evidence we 've had , but also that it seems to be predominantly focused on low-attaining frees—pupils who are eligible for free school meals . kirsty williams am: thank you , llyr . i think it 's important to be absolutely clear that when it comes to individual interventions , those individual interventions should only be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals . but in some cases , schools may use their pdg funding to provide a universal intervention , but we would want to—in challenge advisers ' discussions in schools—we 'd want to have evidence that that universal intervention would have a disproportionate effect on the outcomes for children on free school meals . so , for instance , if i give you an example in your own region , llyr : at brynteg county primary school in wrexham , if you look at that primary school in wrexham , their results for free-school-meal children at the end of their primary school period in school are equivalent to their non-free-school-meal counterparts . so , there is no differentiation in those results . one of the things that they 've used their pdg for is to really focus on the concept of growth mindset in school . so , that 's a universal thing that they 've trained all the teachers in , but what we know is that that has a disproportionate effect on those children who are on free school meals . so , if you 're familiar with the concept of a growth mindset , it 's about really challenging learners to think that , ' i can do things . if sometimes i fail , i pick myself up , i 'm more resilient . ' now , that has been , as i said , trained to all the teachers in the school—it 's an ethos for the whole school—but we have seen that the impact on the free-school-meal children has been even greater , and now they 're at the same level . so , that 's the important distinction . individual intervention per child has to be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals , but sometimes a school will employ a whole-school approach to train their staff , for instance , and that , then , has to demonstrate it has a disproportionate effect on free school meals . so , growth mindset ; it may be attachment disorder training for staff , for instance , where we know it 's of benefit to everybody , but will have particular benefits for that cohort of students . with regard to more able and talented , you know , llyr , that this is an area of concern for me , generally , within the welsh education system ; that we 've not been particularly good at identifying , supporting and driving attainment for those children . i 'm absolutely clear that pdg needs to be used for those children who are eligible to drive potential , whatever the potential of that child is , including more able and talented . and again , i 'll give you an example that has been seen as good practice in pembrokeshire : a window on the world bus , again paid for by schools . i do n't know if you 're aware of it . llyr gruffydd am: we 've heard about that . kirsty williams am: oh , you 've heard about it ; well , it 's a really good example the window on the world . and , again , that 's very much targeted at raising aspirations and giving children who are more able and talented , who are eligible for pdg , those experiences , and to really push them . so , yes , i 'm absolutely clear that pdg should n't just be seen to be getting individuals to the average . for those children who are more able and talented , it should be used to support them— llyr gruffydd am: and we all share those aspirations , i 'm sure , and you pointed to examples of good practice , but of course , it 's not universal , is it , so what i 'm asking is : do you think that the guidance is sufficient as it is ? do you think that there 's a great enough awareness of how the pdg should be used at the coalface ? and also , are you confident that consortia and others have the measures in place to be able to demonstrate that it is being used properly ? kirsty williams am: i think , if we look at what estyn has said about pdg , it does actually recognise that the pdg is being used to push more able and talented children , but as always with the system , llyr , it 's whether we can be sure that that is strategic and that it 's happening across all of our schools . so , you're— llyr gruffydd am: but not just in relation to more able and talented , i 'm referring to the eligibility and the targeting . kirsty williams am: oh , the eligibility . you 'll be aware that , on the advice of sir alasdair , we have employed and appointed new pdg regional advisers , and i think their role is going to be absolutely crucial in spreading that good practice across the region , whether that 's use of pdg for more able and talented , or ensuring that pdg is used in the appropriate way . so , that 's there to provide strategic overall advice . and obviously , we have been very clear with regional challenge advisers , in the relationship and the conversations they 're having with individual schools , that they 're really challenging their schools about the use of pdg , not just in terms of targeting , but the programmes , what the money is being spent on , whether there is an evidence base for that and whether we are clear on impact . so , i think the new regional advisers are going to be crucial in enabling us to ensure more consistent practice across the regions . llyr gruffydd am: so , are you content that eligibility for free school meals is the best measure , really , of identifying which pupils to target ? kirsty williams am: llyr , in the absence of anything better . i 'll be the first person to say that maybe it 's not as absolutely focused , but in the absence of anything different to identify a proxy for need , i think it 's probably the best that we 've got at present . and we will continue to have discussions with local government about whether there are different ways . we have to be mindful . some of the policy levers in this area are out of my hands , so if we look at the roll-out of universal credit , for instance , we 've got officials working very hard at the moment to try and understand what universal credit is going to mean and where we are going to be able to identify relative need , going forward . we have n't had any additional resource as a result of this , but we 're very mindful that , potentially , this has an impact , going forward . and , officials are working all of the time , i must say , in conjunction with the department in england , to understand their thinking in this area so that we are in a position to make some decisions about what a notional eligibility for free school meals will look like going forward , but before i make any decisions , i want to assure everybody that there will be a full public consultation on that . llyr gruffydd am: okay . finally for now , on this issue of once a year , in january , if you 're eligible for free school meals , then you 're in that group for that year . we 've had some quite strong evidence about how difficult that makes longer term planning for a number of schools and we 've also been pointed in the direction of what 's happened in england with the ever 6 , and i 'm just wondering whether you 're giving any thought to maybe changing that a little bit . kirsty williams am: well , we 're certainly giving thought to flexibility . in conversations with alasdair , who is our independent adviser on this agenda , and individual schools , we 're actively giving thought to greater flexibility and maybe longer term projections , so that schools know , for a number of years ahead , what their allocation will be . there are advantages to that system , because you could give that flexibility , you could give that long-term approach , but then , how do you make that responsive if a school suddenly has more children ? we do know that , actually , the number of free-school-meal pupils is dropping . but there can be changes , you know , regional working in areas of north wales in tourism , or maybe in other areas at christmas time , parents are able to get a period of work . so , how can we create a more flexible system ? we 're actively looking at that at the moment . i would n't use it as an ever 6 concept , but as an 'ever 2 ' concept . we have looked at ever 6 , and i 'm going to be absolutely blunt with you : to introduce an ever 6 concept for wales would mean in the region of identifying an additional £40 million . i 'm going to be absolutely straight and blunt with you : we 're not in a position at the moment to be able to identify an additional £40 million to introduce an ever 6. but issues around flexibility , certainly , are actively under consideration . in fact , we 'll be having a discussion later on today about decisions , going forward , for the next two years . llyr gruffydd am: thank you . lynne neagle am: darren on this . darren millar am: it 's just a very brief point in response to the £40 million price ticket that you just put on that . that 's , of course , assuming that you maintain the current level of pdg , yes ? so , if you reduced the level of pdg slightly , but made it available to more individuals , if you like , via allocating it in a different way , then that £40 million price ticket would n't be there , would it ? kirsty williams am: i was asked a question about had i ever considered an ever 6. we have looked at that , we 've priced that up . i have to make decisions in the envelope of resources that are available to me . we could , indeed , change the way in which we allocate pdg money , but we have to do it within the envelope that is available to me , over £90 million . that 's a significant level of investment , but , of course , as always , darren , we could cut the amount per pupil , but that might have quite challenging swings in allocations . what we have done—because what i am clear on is that there was evidence to suggest that in the secondary sector , a great deal of pdg was being focused on years 10 and 11 , especially year 11 , in catch-up provision , and you 'll be aware , because we 've said this in evidence to the committee in the papers , we 've set a challenge to secondary schools to say , 'actually , the majority of your pdg allocation has to be used in key stage 3 . ' now , we have to balance the needs , the moral hazard of turning round to children in years 10 and 11 and saying , 'we're not going to provide catch-up opportunities for you , ' because , clearly , those children need that support . but the evidence and the advice that we 're receiving is : actually , strong focus on early years , primary and key stage 3 , if we get that right , should negate the need for spending money on catch-up at years 10 and 11. that 's why we , in our advice to local authorities and schools , say that we want to see evidence that they 're spending this money earlier on in a child 's career , rather than just a scramble at year 11 to say , 'right , we 've got to get you through your exams . ' darren millar am: okay , but have you actively considered , then , reducing the level you have ? kirsty williams am: we've— ruth conway: sorry—i was just going to say that one of the things is looking at the scope of the definition , and i think it 's about being more flexible with the definition , rather than reducing the amount per head . darren millar am: okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you . if we can go on , then , to talk about some of the practical uses of the pdg , you write in your written paper that 'the majority of schools are making well thought out and appropriate decisions ' on how to use it . but estyn reported that only two thirds of primary and secondary schools make effective use of the pdg . given that we 've had it now for six years , would you not have expected there to be a higher level of schools actually making good use of that funding ? kirsty williams am: well , to flip it on its head , the vast majority of schools , as identified by estyn , are using this money to good effect . so , that 's the way i like to see it—that the vast majority of schools are doing well . what estyn has also indicated is the intrinsic link here to leadership within individual schools , and as you 'll be aware , leadership , improving capacity in leadership and developing leadership talent in the welsh education system is a key priority for me in our national mission . of course , that 's being developed in a different work stream . i think what 's fair to say is that the use of pdg is evolving over time . i think we are seeing , increasingly , more and more schools understanding how best to deploy that money for best effect for students . so , if we 're honest , when pdg first started , i think , in some schools it was spent on investing in tracking of children , because they 'd never thought about tracking these children , they did n't have systems in place to look at the performance of these children , and to have a system in place . so we 've moved now from spending money on the infrastructure around support for fsm children into actual inputs in terms of teaching and learning . we 're also seeing from estyn that , actually , in terms of money following the evidence of what we know works , estyn says that pdg is probably the best example of schools following tried and tested and evidence-based interventions to deploy the money . but clearly we want all of this money to be deployed as well as it can be , and again we come back to the decision i 've made to appoint regional pdg advisers so that we can get that better consistency of approach . we are , in the discussions that i have with the regional consortia about how they challenge individual schools on usage , looking for very clear evidence of schools using the sutton trust toolkit , and we could have a discussion about whether that 's the right thing , because that 's on my mind too . but we want to see schools demonstrating their evidence base , and if they 're not , if a school is n't doing that , okay , so demonstrate to us why you 've made those decisions and , crucially , what are you doing as the school to judge whether that decision is actually making a difference for your individual pupils . so , if you 're moving away from tried and tested interventions , what we know works , if you 're doing something different with your money , okay , you need to justify that and you need to explain how you 're going to demonstrate impact . but i think what we 're seeing is increasing good practice in this area as the pdg develops and as our understanding of our school-to-school working in our self-improving school system also develops . i think we 're seeing better usage of the money year on year . lynne neagle am: thank you . llyr on this . llyr gruffydd am: you mentioned some schools will be moving from the tried-and-tested interventions , really , and i 'm just wondering to what extent that evolution of use of pdg is being driven by cuts to core funding . kirsty williams am: no , i do n't think it 's being driven by cuts to core funding . i think there has been— . one of the biggest impacts of pdg has not been—well , i suppose it is the money in itself , because the money has concentrated the minds , has n't it ? so , one of the most important things that pdg has done is highlight the importance of this agenda within schools , and really raise this up in the thinking of leadership and senior management teams in our schools , and has driven a focus on scrutiny and accountability in the systems that are working with our schools . i think the changing use of pdg reflects the journeys that schools have been on , some of them from a very low base where this was not a priority for them , to better understanding , and as research and as intelligence grows over time in this area , both in wales and outside of wales , schools are increasingly learning to use that evidence to tailor approaches in their schools . llyr gruffydd am: so you would n't accept at all that some of this money 's being used to paper over some funding cracks from elsewhere . because the unions and some others have told us that , whether we like it or not , there is some of that going on . kirsty williams am: as i said , llyr , we 're very clear about the usage that this money can be spent on in terms of individuals or universal application within schools , and that forms an important part of the checks and balances that we have in our system . can we continue to improve , and ensure that more and more of our schools are employing best practice ? yes , we can , and as i 've said , we 've taken steps to put in place the infrastructure to support that . lynne neagle am: thank you . mark 's questions are next . mark reckless am: cabinet secretary , how would you assess the impact of pdg on attendance and hopefully subsequent engagement with education from children who have free school meals ? kirsty williams am: i think what 's important to note is that , as estyn have themselves said , over the period of the last inspection report , we have seen improvements in attendance , but i do think we need to , again , look at how pdg can support this particular agenda . and as always in the welsh education system , there are some excellent examples of how schools use the money to address this . ysgol y preseli in pembrokeshire is a very good example of how they 've deployed their money . forgive me ; i ca n't off the top of my head remember the name of the primary school i visited , again in north wales , where the school has proactively used this money , and they actually send teaching assistants out of school in the morning before the start of the school day , and they actually have a walking bus . they call at homes for children , and they walk the children to the breakfast club . so , they 're proactively going out into the community and making sure that those children are in the classrooms , because the teacher said , 'we recognised we had a problem with attendance . we tried a variety of means of improving that , but in the end we have taken this quite bold step—we actually send the staff out and they create that walking bus , and they walk the children into school ' . they say that they know that , for some of those children , because of the difficult circumstances they and their families are living in , they probably would n't be in school if it was n't for that proactive approach . so , we 're looking again at what more we can do to support this particular agenda in terms of improving attendance , because although , again , there are examples of good practice , there is still a gap between the attendance of free-school-meal pupils and non-free-school-meal pupils . and , of course , we can have the best curriculum in the world with really high-quality teaching , but unless the children are in the classes then we 're not going to make the difference for them . whilst that differential exists , then it 's going to be hard to close the attainment gap for those children . mark reckless am: i was actually quite shocked just reading in advance of this meeting that the proportion attending 95 per cent or more , who have pretty full attendance , was only 35 per cent for free-school-meal children at level 4 , compared to 60 per cent for non-free-school-meal pupils . it still is an extraordinary difference . my colleague here showed me , i think , last week , a graph showing the link between attendance and attainment , in particular . when people were absent , a lot of the— . as i 'm sure you 're aware , there 's a huge connection . what more can pdg do to deal with it ? in the example you give i can see how a school with an awful lot of free-school-meal children could do that , but a lot of the free-school-meal children are actually in schools that do n't have that high a proportion of free school meals , where it would be much more challenging to bring in that type of initiative . kirsty williams am: yes , indeed , and i think it gets more challenging the older the children get . i think it 's more difficult to find interventions that are successful higher up , so key stage 4. so , you can do a walking bus with little ones , ca n't you , but i do n't suppose your average 15 or 16-year-old is going to take very kindly to that . so , you do need a different approach to that . but again , we see in ysgol y preseli the employment of staff to directly work with families of older children to reinforce the messages around , as you quite rightly say , the linkage between attendance and attainment , and really work with individual families to understand the barriers to attendance : what 's going on in the family that is preventing that child from going to school , and what more can the school do to address those situations . but you 're absolutely right ; there is more that we need to do to address this particular agenda of attainment . i do n't know if there 's anything extra you wanted to add , steve . steve davies: there is also another very good example—and i take what you say about where there are small numbers—but in our secondary schools where there are significant numbers , they 're investing pdg in resources like a school nurse and a school counsellor , not just to work with the children but link to other agencies on whom the children and the families are dependent to support them in terms of working with schools . so , it 's something , particularly in our most challenging areas , where it can not just be delivered within the school . so , good use of that resource is being made to employ people to support them in those wider areas . mark reckless am: thank you . to what extent is pdg also used to seek to reduce the higher rates of exclusion for children entitled to free school meals ? kirsty williams am: so , if we looked at permanent exclusions , there is n't a differential , but if we look at temporary exclusions , there we see there is a disproportionate number of children on free school meals that are subject to those exclusions . again , i think what schools employing best practice understand is that you need a multi-agency approach to supporting that particular child . some of those exclusions can be as a result of the need to address other issues going on in a child 's life . so , this is where we come back to the committee 's work , for instance , on mental health and support for children , support for behaviour in school . so , again , it 's a multi-agency approach that i think we need , and , in our good schools , our really , really good schools , there 's a recognition of that need to have a whole team around a child to support that child in education . with eotas , we made some changes last year regarding pdg for eotas . so , for those children who do find themselves in education other than at school , we are providing additional support that previously was not available . mark reckless am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . we 're going to move on now to talk about the impact of pdg on attainment . hefin david has got some questions . hefin david am: it appears that the attainment gap at 2017 has actually widened , in spite of pdg levels . is that correct ? kirsty williams am: yes . so , if you look at it—with the usual caveats about whether you can make direct comparisons on level 2 plus between the exams the year before and the exams that we had last summer—on the face of it , the gap has increased . i think what 's important to recognise , hefin , is a direction of travel . i 'm sure we all want to , because i want to , have a discussion about why children on free school meals were less resilient in the exam system last year . but , if we look at the period that we have been employing pdg , over that period , we have seen a narrowing of the gap . i think what 's quite stark , if we think about it— . so , if we look at where we started from : in 2009 , one in five children on free school meals got level 2 plus—one in five—by 2016 , we had got that down to one in three . obviously , there 's still a way to go , but , sir alasdair , who knows about these things , says that that is a significant improvement . last year , we got some challenges . we need to understand why that happened , but i do think it's— hefin david am: why , do you think ? kirsty williams am: why , do i think ? what i do think is there is no one answer . there is no one answer to this . i think we could look at and we can have discussions around the move from btec to science gcses . i think we have supplied figures to the committee about the significant change in the number of children on free school meals who were n't doing a single science gcse and are now doing science gcses . we can look at the unintended consequences of literature . again , we 've supplied figures . where children have done language and literature , whether that be through the medium of english or through the medium of welsh , there is more resilience . so , it 's that exposure to literacy in all its forms that i think could potentially make a difference . so , i think there 's no one answer to why free-school-meal children were not so resilient last year . we continue to have discussions with qualifications wales to get a better understanding of this . at my next ministerial policy board , in may , we 'll be doing a deep dive into this particular subject . hefin david am: so , to what extent would exam boards be responsible for lack of grade stability ? kirsty williams am: it could be one of the contributory factors . what i think is important is that there is no one , single reason why there seems to be less resilience in this cohort of children . hefin david am: will you be speaking to the exam boards about this and raising concerns ? kirsty williams am: i have written to qualifications wales , we 've had discussions about it , but i 've asked them to formally submit evidence ahead of my policy board for may , where , as i said , we will be doing a formal , deep-dive discussion across the department about these issues . but , again , hefin , what we 've got to be clear on is—while we look at overall factors , you know , our overall national statistic—we did see some schools last year whose fsm performance was better than it had been the year before . so , what was it in those schools that enabled those children to do really well , whereas , in other schools , the performance was different ? even in individual cities , you can see a huge variety of performance . so , take cardiff and swansea , our two biggest cities . you 've got schools in those cities with comparative levels of free school meals . so , you could have really high-performing schools with a very small number of the cohort on free school meals . the difference between those performances in a single city—so , that 's the same local education authority and the same regional consortium—you can see a massive change . there 's one school i can talk to : their free-school-meal performance is 88 per cent . a similar school in the same city with the same proportion of children on free school meals , their performance is down in the 20 per cents . so , i think what 's important is that we ca n't draw broad-brush conclusions . for me , the challenge is to go into individual schools and understand what was happening in that particular school that ensured that their children did really well . we 've got one school in swansea , their fsm performance at gcse level 2 outperforms non-fsm pupils . hefin david am: but we still need to rely on the trends from a distance . if we take your argument that 2017 was an unusual year and the trends up to 2016 were positive , in a few years ' time , when we will be looking back in two years ' time , how are we going to measure this progress , say , in 2019 ? what are we likely to see and what methods are you going to use to measure progress that way ? kirsty williams am: well , you 'll be aware that we are moving away from level 2 plus as a performance measure anyway because of the— hefin david am: so , what performance measures will you use ? kirsty williams am: so , for the lack of sophistication around the level 2 plus , and for the unintended behaviours that that particular performance measure has driven within our schools . i 'll be making a statement shortly to the assembly around a new performance measure for schools . we were , at our most recent secondary heads conference , working with schools to develop that . what 's important to me is that we have a more sophisticated model that looks at school performance for all children . what level 2 plus does is narrow , very much , the focus of schools on an individual part of the cohort , usually the c/d borderline , which is why then we have problems with the number of students getting a b grade or above . we have marked success in our schools by saying to schools that a c is good enough . well , if a child gets a c but came to you in year 7 and they were destined to get an e , yes , indeed , a c is a success , because you 've moved that child on ; but , if that child came to you destined to get an a * and gets a c , then we have n't done a good job by that particular child . so , we need a performance measure that is much more sophisticated , looks at each individual child , tracks that progress , and measures the value added by that school in performance . hefin david am: last question : therefore , should we have confidence in the data up to 2016 ? is there a lack of confidence in that data ? kirsty williams am: no , it 's not a lack of confidence in the data . the data is the data . what i 'm saying is , using that as a performance measure and an accountability measure within our school system may have been right for the time . i think it is now right to have a different way of measuring success in schools . i think that particular set of performance measures has driven certain behaviours—not because ministers wanted that to happen , but as an unintended consequence . i think we can work together with our school system , learning the lessons of international best practice , to develop much more sophisticated accountability and performance measures for individual schools , and , i should say , for the government . so , you will be aware of my intention to issue the first national report card on government performance later on this year . so , this is not about trying to avoid scrutiny . it 's about trying to develop a more sophisticated way , which is in line with our national mission , where every child 's education is valued , and where the impact of the school can be tracked more effectively . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . can i just ask , cabinet secretary , are you still holding on to your target of 37 per cent of free-school-meal pupils achieving the level 2 threshold ? kirsty williams am: well , we 're moving away from the level 2 threshold . so , that 's the first thing to say . so , we will want to develop a new suite , in line with our new accountability measures , as we go forward . so , we will be absolutely continuing to track and evaluate the performance of free-school-meal pupils . when we announce our new accountability measures , i will be in a position to address how we 'll measure the government's performance , and national performance , going forward . but , given the fact that we 're moving away from level 2 plus , then we will need a different set of performance indicators . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the next questions are on looked-after children and adopted children , and i 've got questions from michelle then mark . michelle brown am: thank you . good morning— mark reckless am: i was to come in first , i think . i was about to ask about icf consulting . lynne neagle am: go on then . mark reckless am: i think my questions are first , but , michelle , please do correct me if you were planning to come in before . the pdg for looked-after children does n't quite seem to have the degree of visibility as the pdg for the free-school-meals . i think we had the mori/wiserd survey—only 15 per cent of primary schools and 23 per cent of secondary schools were aware that pdg was targeted at looked-after children . i just wonder—can you clarify on the record here what is the role of schools with pdg for looked-after children as compared to the regional consortia in this field ? kirsty williams am: okay . i think it is absolutely fair to say that most awareness around pdg is around free school meals . there is less awareness around the availability of pdg to support looked-after children . i think that 's probably in the nature of the cohort , so , there are more children subject to free school meals than are subject to being looked after . so , i think that 's part of the explanation . a decision was taken in 2015 to regionalise pdg for looked-after children . my understanding was that the thinking behind that at the time was around a greater strategic deployment of that resource and to try and drive a greater impact than how it was being used previously . so , looked-after pdg is held at a regional level . we have looked-after children pdg co-ordinators—they 're in their second year this year—to look at a regional deployment of that resource . and that resource can be done in a variety of ways , through individual allocation to a school to support an individual child , through to capacity building for the whole system . so , for instance , if i give you an example , in carmarthenshire , there 's been a big emphasis on attachment disorder and training teachers with regard to the impact of attachment disorder . carmarthenshire happens to be one of those local authorities that does quite well in terms of attainment for looked-after children . but , clearly , i have—not concerns . 'concerns ' is n't the right word . but i have asked officials to give greater scrutiny to how that resource has been used in the last year . steve , on my behalf , wrote out to the system , setting out our expectations , but also advising them of the fact we will be asking very detailed questions of accountability for that money . so , what has that money been used on and how can you account for the effect ? but , steve , maybe you can give some greater detail . steve davies: i think the challenge that— . one of the rationales for shifting—not that all the money stays in the region , but having a regional strategic support—was that , historically , the money was going directly with that child to the school . given the quite often rapid turnover of children in schools—the very nature of looked-after children is they do sometimes move through foster parents—historically , what happened , the money lands in the school , because , at that time in the year , when it 's measured , the school gets the money and can spend it on some additional support for staff , but quite often that child moves on to another school and the money does n't transfer . some schools will go through quite a number of years without having a looked-after child and will not think strategically , 'how do i need to support them ? ' so , that was the rationale of the shift . in terms of the implementation of the regional allocation , as of this financial year finishing , we are going into local authorities and regions to evaluate where they 've located the resource , what the impact of that resource has been , so that is reinforced and shared more widely . kirsty williams am: and then , to reassure , it 's not just internally that we 're looking at this . we have a contract with an external agency to do an evaluation— mark reckless am: that 's icf consulting . kirsty williams am: yes . yes , so that was done in the autumn of last year , because , as i said , we had concerns about whether this was really having the effect that was intended . so , my expectation is that we will be in a position to receive that report later on this spring , and of course it would be my intention that that report would be made public for people to have a look at what— mark reckless am: that was commissioned last autumn— kirsty williams am: yes , in november 2017 . mark reckless am: november 2017 . kirsty williams am: so , i 'm hoping to have that published before the summer recess . i 'm very reluctant to say months ; i 've learnt not to say months , because they move . lynne neagle am: i 'm going to go to michelle now , mark , because— mark reckless am: sure . i will come back in if i have anything further to ask here after michelle . lynne neagle am: —both of you asked for these questions , and that 's what the pre-meeting is for . mark reckless am: michelle , i defer to you . lynne neagle am: michelle . michelle brown am: okay , thank you . would you be open , cabinet secretary , to the idea of adjusting the eligibility of the pdg so that pupils who have been looked after or adopted at any point within a previous given period of time would attract the pdg , rather than only if they 're looked-after on a one-off date ? kirsty williams am: as i said earlier , in questions from , i think it was , llyr , who was talking about concepts of concepts of ever 6 , we are constantly looking at how we can get that balance between focus and flexibility for this resource . llyr opened with the question of , 'how can you absolutely ensure that these children are getting the money ? ' , but then there 's also a tension about how can you create some flexibility around the school 's usage of the grant . so , we will look at that . i think there is the issue of where a school would know of a child that was looked after . issues around adoption are slightly more sensitive , because we could n't force a family to tell a school that their child was an adopted child . so , a family may be very open and very keen to explain that to a school , but we ca n't necessarily track as closely children who have been adopted , especially if that adoption happens before the child goes to school . we ca n't be in a position of forcing families to disclose this information if they do n't want to , but we certainly can , as i say , look to strengthen our monitoring arrangements around pdg support for looked-after children and the impact that that 's having . i just think we need to be a bit mindful of people 's privacy in some instances . if they do n't want to divulge that , it would n't be my job to tell a family , 'you have to let us know if your child is adopted . ' lynne neagle am: michelle . michelle brown am: fair enough ; thank you for that answer . the eas consortium 's approach to using the looked-after and adopted pdg is to use it as part of a broader approach targeted at vulnerable learners in general . what are your views on that approach ? kirsty williams am: i 'm a great believer in if we can get it right for our most vulnerable learners , we 'll be getting it right for all of our learners . i gave the example earlier , for instance , of attachment disorder , and , chair , you will know that i have had conversations . one of the emerging themes for me , as i go around visiting schools , is the impact and the growing awareness and the growing numbers of children who have attachment disorder , and how schools are best able to respond to that in their children . so , for instance , as i said about carmarthenshire , there 's been a huge effort to address that in the school sector in carmarthenshire . now , that has a disproportionate benefit for those children , because you 're more likely to see attachment disorder in children who are care experienced , because of the nature of the lives that those children have lived , but that does n't necessarily mean that attachment disorder is exclusively found in those children that are looked after . it can be found in other families as well . so , that vulnerable learner , regardless of their background , will benefit from having teachers who are better trained , understanding and have intervention strategies in place to be able to address that need . steve davies: i think it 's also important to add that this is not one region 's approach ; this is across four regions , so the others— . for example , erw have run a significant programme looking at the impact of adverse childhood experiences on pupils , which has enabled teachers to detect some of the impact of some of those and then considers some of the work they need to do within the school but also with other agencies . so , it is something that's applied consistently across the four regions . kirsty williams am: i was in pil primary school recently where they use their pdg , both fsm pdg , and no doubt an element of pdg for looked-after , for nurture groups . so , for those children who really , really find it very difficult to be in the main classroom , they can have that nurture group experience to address issues around emotional behaviour , feelings , and it gets them in a position where they are able then to join the main classroom because issues around behaviour have been addressed and they 're in a better position to learn . so , again , this is an example of how vulnerable learners in the wider sense can benefit . lynne neagle am: okay . mark , did you have anything you wanted to ask ? mark reckless am: yes . can i follow up on tracking adopted children ? i entirely understand that you ca n't force parents to disclose that their child is adopted . however , my understanding was that , in england , there was a dataset with social services that was shared with schools in a way that i 'm not clear is happening in wales and how , if at all , that links to the pupil level annual school census data . perhaps sort of linked to that , is n't there an argument for making the parents of adopted children in the schools , potentially , with adopted children more aware that adopted children who were previously looked after have this potential grant , and would they not be more willing to disclose this , at least confidentially to the school and government , if they knew there was this upside of doing so ? kirsty williams am: we 're actively looking at whether we should try and find a way of collecting this data , with the caveats that i just gave earlier . we ca n't force parents to divulge information that is a matter for them , nor would i want to . but there is an active discussion going on at the moment about whether we could create a dataset where people divulge this information and we can then track the children through . you 're absolutely right . one of the ways in which we can often encourage take-up , for instance , of free school meals , especially in those communities where there is a sense of reluctance to apply for support—even though people are entitled to it , there 's a reluctance to do it ; sometimes we see this in rural areas— . actually , appealing to the parents by saying , 'actually , this will mean more money for your child 's school budget' is a much more compelling reason why people will apply for it then saying , 'actually , it 's going to help you ' , because they do n't want to be seen being dependent , they do n't want to be seen being helped . but , if you say to them , 'actually , do you know that this means more money for your child 's school ? ' , they go , 'oh , all right then , i 'll fill in the forms now . ' so , you 're right , i think there is something that we could do to make parents understand , in the round , that this has an impact . but we are actively looking at and discussing whether we could create a dataset around adopted children and how we can do that in line with data protection and data sharing . one of the things i am concerned about in the performance of looked-after children generally is how we can , across government , work more closely together . we ca n't see the educational attainment of looked-after children just being a job of education . it 's got to be a job of social services and the health service as well . there 's got to be a joined-up approach to doing that . now , officials were at the ministerial advisory group that 's chaired by david melding on prospects for looked-after children . they were there at the group last week . david tells me that the paper was very positively received by the group . i will be sitting down with david melding to talk through what more we can do on the education side . i think there 's really an appetite between me and the minister for children to get a closer working relationship on this . we ca n't expect schools to do it on their own and alone . and there are things that we can do out there in local authorities to help improve outcomes . it 's not just about the pdg ; it is about , when social services are thinking about a placement , where does the discussion about where children are going to go to school—when does that take place ? do we talk about the placement , move a child and then think , 'oh my goodness me , what are we going to do about the schooling ? ' if you can imagine , the school could have been working really , really hard with a pupil to get them in a good place , to get them being able to access the curriculum , and then social services decide that the placement is being changed . so , we potentially lose all of that . so , a greater involvement in education and better linked-up working in local authorities will help us with this . it ca n't be just the job of the pdg . if we think we can crack this with just pdg , then we 're being delusional . it has to be a cross-government approach at a national level , and at a local government level as well , to get this right . sometimes , data protection—how can we break down some of these barriers between , you know , the school does n't need to , schools should n't see , the entire social services report ? well , maybe the school does need to see some of that background information if they 're going to have an impact for that child . so , there 's more work to do , but it can not be just the job of education on its own if we 're going to make a difference , nor can it just be the job of the pdg to make a difference for those children . lynne neagle am: thank you . julie 's got some more questions on the impact on adopted and looked-after children . julie morgan am: yes , before i go on to those , i just wanted to support , really , what mark was saying about adopted children and how important it is , i think , that the adoptive parents feel able to speak to the school and to give information . because certainly any evidence we 've had from adoptive parents , and generally knowing about what adoptive parents do feel , is that they often feel that there 's a degree of a lack of sensitivity in the school about the issues of adoption . i would certainly support some move towards ensuring that the atmosphere was open in a way that would encourage them to realise that it would be a help for the children if there was an awareness in the school . so , i just wanted to really reinforce that . kirsty williams am: yes , and that would chime with what i hear from many adoptive parents . i 'm just trying to be sensitive by saying we ca n't force people to divulge this information if they do n't want to . julie morgan am: no , but they need to be given the opportunity . kirsty williams am: yes , you 're right . we need to make sure that those parents feel that they can discuss this with school leaders and classroom teachers and explore how best those individual children can be supported , and how best we can support parents . because , again—and i 've said this a lot—after the quality of teaching , the second biggest impact on a child 's educational outcome will be parental engagement . so , being able to create an environment where adoptive parents feel very confident and able to talk about their children 's education is absolutely crucial if we 're going to get that parental engagement that we need for all of our children . julie morgan am: yes . thank you . going on to looked-after children , you say that the latest data on looked-after children 's attainment is extremely disappointing . can you expand on that and what effect the pdg has had in this result , or not had ? kirsty williams am: well , there 's no getting away from it : the way in which we currently measure outcomes for looked-after children , the results are not good enough . it 's a source of huge concern to me that we need to do better for those children . that 's why officials are engaging with the group that david melding is chairing , to make sure that education is integral to that group and it 's not lost sight of . there 's a discussion to be had about the cohort , whether it 's right and correct to compare looked-after children to the main cohort , or whether these statistics are useful in any way . sometimes as well—this is not to make an excuse because , as i 've said in my paper , it 's extremely disappointing , but sometimes it can be really difficult . because the cohort sometimes can be very , very small , it can swing the statistics to look perhaps more dramatic . julie morgan am: i think , generally , when you look at how looked-after children do— kirsty williams am: it 's not good . julie morgan am: —in a much wider evaluation , they 're not doing well , are they ? kirsty williams am: they 're not doing well . so , that 's why we 've got the review , the independent review , into the impact of the pdg in this area . this is why steve is doing the work that he is doing with the regional consortia because , clearly , at the moment , we are not doing what we need to do for that particular cohort of children . i would not make any bones about that at all . steve davies: i think we will not move away from the fact that these children need good gcses to gain employment , so we 'll continue to measure that . i think we need to look at more nuanced evaluations of the data at a lower level . so , for example , there were significant improvements in terms of pdg pupils who got three and four good gcses but did n't get past the threshold . that 's not to cover anything that is not working in terms of improvement , but we will look at the full range and still hold on to the fact that we have to look at a measure that relates to the likelihood of these children going on to further education and training . julie morgan am: and then just one more question about the exclusion rates amongst looked-after children . they are , i understand , over six times more likely to be given a fixed-term exclusion . so , is there any way of trying to address this ? is the pdg used for anything to do with exclusions ? kirsty williams am: we can look at exclusions . we also have to read across about how the whole system works , not just the pdg element of the system . so , we know , for example , that 66 per cent of looked-after learners have some additional learning need , so we ca n't just look at it in terms of this particular source of funding ; we have to look at it at a wider level of support . so , given that the majority of those children will have an aln , how can we make sure that our new aln legislation and our new aln regime meets the needs of these children ? so , i think what we 're looking at , again , is to say that it ca n't be just the job of the pdg . that 's there as an additional level of support , but actually , we 've got to get our aln right . unless we get our aln right , lots and lots of these children are not going to get the support that they need day in , day out via that system . we do know that sometimes , if we 're not addressing aln , then we 're not addressing behaviour issues that then potentially lead to an expulsion or potentially lead to non-attendance . so , we 've got to look at it in the round and recognise the connections between the sometimes quite complex needs that these children have within the school setting , that are not just as a result of the fact that they 're looked after ; they have other needs as well . steve davies: and investment in well-being— kirsty williams am: absolutely . steve is reminding me that that 's why well-being is part of the national mission—to address issues around supporting children with their well-being , which is a way of keeping them in school . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 're going to move on to schools challenge cymru now . llyr . llyr gruffydd am: thank you , chair . i was just wondering what your assessment is as to why some schools made progress and others did n't . kirsty williams am: i think we have to recognise that the 39 schools that were part of the programme were in very , very different places . so , i think one of the reasons why some schools did well was because their needs were not so complex , not so deep-seated and a certain level of intervention was enough to get them moving forward . some schools had very , very different needs . i think , talking to those involved in the programme , as always , we had some support advisers , challenge advisers working with those schools as part of the programme who were really , really excellent and really good , and were the right fit for the school and really drove the school onwards . we had other people employed in the programme who , perhaps , were less effective at driving change within those individual schools . so , what we have is a mixed bag of performance , again reflecting the very different challenges that those schools were facing , which led them to be chosen for the programme in the first place . llyr gruffydd am: yes , okay— steve davies: sorry . one of the other key additional factors was the extent to which there had been recent appointment of a new headteacher to that school just before the programme had started , because— kirsty williams am: leadership is all . llyr gruffydd am: and that was seen as a positive . steve davies: a positive , yes . i think one of the challenges is that sometimes the time it takes to make changes in leadership can be protracted and can be a barrier , sometimes , to the speed with which you can move . but , for a significant minority of the schools , there had been recent new appointments of headteachers , which was seen to be contributing , when you looked at the evaluation , to the speed with which they were able to engage . llyr gruffydd am: the reason i was asking was i wanted to understand what lessons the government is taking from that three-year investment , really , and how , maybe , you 're applying some of those lessons to your wider school improvement programme . i know professor mel ainscow identified six interconnected lessons , although i also note that the cabinet secretary did n't actually meet him for about six or seven months after coming into post . so , i 'm just wondering , can you give us confidence that , actually , you are serious about taking lessons from schools challenge cymru and applying them to the wider school improvement agenda ? kirsty williams am: well , absolutely , llyr . i do n't think anything should be read into when i met the individual concerned , because officials were meeting the individual concerned . individual challenge advisers were meeting with the regions , there was crossover work with the fsm agenda as well , and we are absolutely determined that best practice and those interventions that drove school improvement are embedded in the new support that we have via the regional consortia . it 's no coincidence that some of the best people that were employed by schools challenge cymru are now in the employment of our regional consortia . so , those people that were really good and really made a difference do n't work for the schools challenge cymru scheme any more , they work for our regional school improvement services . so , we 're absolutely determined . the things that we have learned , as always , are around leadership . it is absolutely key and crucial to have strong , capable school leadership as a driver for change within the system . we 're looking at systems and processes , so , actually , has a school got in place comprehensive systems of tracking and processes within the school ? we 're looking at the teacher quality—how can we ensure that we have got consistent strategies in place to drive up pedagogy and teacher quality in the classroom ? collaborative activity—again , absolutely key . a school can not see itself in isolation , and one of the key themes of the national mission is a self-improving system , so , collaborative working where schools are looking outside of each other , learning from best practice from other schools . so , there are lots of things that we 've drawn from the evaluation that you will see as key themes running through the national mission , and , as i said , it 's no coincidence that our really good people that were working in schools challenge cymru are now working for the regional consortia , being able to use that expertise not just for a very small proportion of our schools—but that expertise is available to all our schools . llyr gruffydd am: although estyn has told us , of course , that you ca n't expect the consortia to really carry on with that level of intervention and the same kind of intensity as was provided previously , so i 'm just wondering— kirsty williams am: in what way ? llyr gruffydd am: well , we were told by estyn in evidence that they did n't necessarily think that we could expect the consortia to provide the same type of tailored support , and certainly the level of intensity with the improvement boards and everything— kirsty williams am: well , the improvement boards are carrying on , so the improvement boards still exist , and i would—not that i want to argue with estyn— llyr gruffydd am: well , feel free ; this is your opportunity to do so if you— kirsty williams am: what i would say is that those improvement boards are staying on , and our schools categorisation system is used to identify the level of support . now , if you 're a red school , that gives you the entitlement to 25 days of support . that is more than you would have got under the schools challenge cymru programme , which would 've been 20 days . so , actually , moving to this system allows us to really focus in on those schools that need that intensive level of support . and what 's important for me , llyr , in this , okay , is that those schools are not necessarily just the schools that were in the programme . our system now of challenge , advice and support allows us to target resources across all of our schools and across all of our sectors , because you 'll be aware that schools challenge was only available to secondary schools , not available to primary schools . what our system now allows us to do , via the schools categorisation , is to identify schools , wherever they are in wales and whatever sector they 're in , to have that intensive level of support that they need to make improvements . llyr gruffydd am: so , you 're confident that that level of momentum is continuing through the consortia that was previously enjoyed by those particular schools , and you 're also confident that there is minimal risk that they 'll slip back to where they were , potentially , or at least part of the way back . kirsty williams am: well , actually , there are some really good examples of some of the schools challenge cymru schools making that sustained improvement now that the programme has come to an end . you only have to look at tredegar , where we have seen continual improvement and moving up through the categorisation system . that school is now a green school , so they 've been able to sustain their progress at the end of the programme . if we look at armando in eastern high school , again—gosh , my goodness me , we had lots of debates in a previous chamber about the future of eastern . there was one person that said that eastern had to be closed and that the only way forward for that particular school was for it to be shut down , but what we have seen is investment via schools challenge cymru , but ongoing , continual support from the regional consortium , and that school has come out of special measures . i pay absolute tribute to the staff of that school and that community that have done such a good job . so , i 'm absolutely convinced that where we 've got good leadership and good support , some of those schools are making continued , sustained progress even after the end of the programme . the challenge for me is for those schools that schools challenge cymru did n't work for , and we have n't seen that progress—how we can use our school improvement system now to continue to work with those schools to give them the level of support that they need to make a difference . so that 's what my focus is on now : a whole-system approach , rather than choosing 39 schools to get that level of support , when we recognise that there are schools everywhere , potentially , that need intervention , support and challenge , and in the primary sector as well . llyr gruffydd am: okay . so , you would n't agree with a number of—well , the near-unanimous evidence that we 've had from academics , some of whom are government advisers from consortia et cetera , that this kind of programme such as schools challenge cymru would probably need about five years to really have the impact that it was intended to have . kirsty williams am: what i would say is that , from my understanding , from the outset , it was a time-limited programme . the schools were aware of that . there were no surprises that it was supposed to be a time-limited programme . evidence from across the uk showed that school challenge programmes have differed in time . so , for instance , manchester 's challenge was a three-year programme . so , there 's no consensus about how many years you need to run a programme for . the previous minister was quite clear about the time-limited nature of the programme . that 's not to say it was the wrong decision , because what 's important , and an ongoing legacy of the programme , was the investment in regional school improvement capacity , because at the time our school improvement services and the regions were young , in their infancy . the ability of individual local authorities to make a difference , with so many local authorities in an estyn categorisation , was limited , so one of the ongoing legacies of the programme is that significant investment of over £10 million in the capacity of the regions to be able to continue this support and the school improvement work . llyr gruffydd am: so , how disappointed were you that the money for schools challenge cymru went back into reserves and did n't stay in your envelope , as you described it earlier ? i presume you made a pitch for it . did you make a case for that money to stay within your department ? kirsty williams am: llyr , we are constantly having discussions with the minister for finance around support for the education budget . the minister for finance was quite clear that it was a time-limited programme . we were able to secure investment from the finance minister to be able to secure the programme and run it and phase it out to make sure there was transition support , so as we moved from the schools challenge programme into the regional consortia , there were resources to do that . llyr gruffydd am: did you feel there was a case to be made to add to the consortia 's resources and be able to continue that level of support that schools had previously had ? kirsty williams am: well , we did make resources available to the regional consortia to do that . as i say , from the outset , the previous minister was very clear it was a time-limited programme . certainly the schools that i talk to— . and i want to be absolutely clear : i have visited many , many schools challenge cymru schools . i have used that opportunity to talk to them about—heolddu being one of them , hefin , which we went to visit , and willows , for instance . i 'm going to one this afternoon—i 'm going to st illtyd 's this afternoon , and i always take— . i 've been to caergybi in anglesey . i always take the opportunity to speak to those teachers about their experience of the programme and to understand and assure myself that they are getting ongoing support that they see as an appropriate level for them . i think i 've done 19 of the schools . lynne neagle am: hefin on this . hefin david am: with regard to it being a time-limited programme , the previous minister was clear that it was a time-limited programme , but it was n't quite as time-limited as you 've decided to be . is that fair to say ? kirsty williams am: no , it was supposed to be a three-year programme at the most . so , there 's no differential between when i decided it was time-limited and the expectations— hefin david am: so the time limit was the same that the previous minister put on it . kirsty williams am: yes . no change . llyr gruffydd am: but mel ainscow did tell us that there was a fade out in that third year—not that people were giving up , do n't get me wrong , but clearly there was n't that commitment coming from government because the decision had been made , and people felt that it was just fizzling out a little bit , and that impacted on the momentum . kirsty williams am: i would n't characterise it as that . i think there certainly was a transition phase when we knew that the programme was moving and schools were moving into a different level of support , but i certainly would n't describe it as a fading out—not at all . as i said , we were aware that the programme was transitioning and we were determined to get that right for those individual schools , and to learn the lessons and , crucially , to be able to apply those lessons right across the board . steve davies: i can see where the perception would come if a programme director like mel was managing the programme right to the end of the three years exactly the same , and it falls off—not a cliff , but it falls off , then the readiness for schools and the readiness in the system to hand over—so part of the shift of focus was that working as a government with the programme in those schools to working with the programme , those schools and the region . so , i think , inevitably , one party might see it as a decrease in terms of emphasis on their work , but it was necessary for the transition . llyr gruffydd am: but does that cast a bit of a shadow over the transition , then—that one key player within that process felt as such , or are you confident that that was managed well and effectively ? kirsty williams am: i think it was managed well , and we were very clear to recognise success where success has been achieved , but not to gloss over where the programme had not made an impact , because that would n't be good for anybody . there was a formal event to close the programme , which gave everybody an opportunity to get together , to be formally thanked , and for , as i said , congratulations to be given to those people who had really made a difference and , crucially , key staff transferred over into the regional consortia . so , for those individuals , they were able to continue their work , but just be able to apply that work on a regional basis rather than just in an individual school . so , i do n't see that there was any fading out , but there was a transition into a new system , and many of those key personnel transitioned into the system with us . lynne neagle am: have you got any figures for the numbers of staff who went from the programme into the consortia ? kirsty williams am: not off the top of my head , but i can let you know . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got darren first , then mark . kirsty williams am: and can i just say , i met with some of them ? i met with a selection of those people who had been involved in the programme to get their feedback on what they felt had gone right , and what they did n't feel had gone right in the programme . so , i took the time not just to meet the figurehead of the programme , but actually to meet the people who were doing the work in the individual schools . sorry . darren millar am: yes , i just wanted to ask you , you mentioned the figurehead there , i assume by 'the figurehead ' you mean professor ainscow . and you 've mentioned as well that you said you wanted to learn lessons from schools challenge cymru , but he told us that nobody had been in touch with him since march of last year in order to have any sort of follow-up engagement , or to have a dialogue about his perspective on what worked , what did n't work , why there were failures in some areas and why there were successes in others . why have n't you sought that level of engagement with the person who was responsible for running the programme ? kirsty williams am: i 've had that conversation with mr ainscow . we had the evaluation of the programme . we 've spoken to the people who were actually involved in running the programme on a daily basis in individual schools . we 've spoken to the regional consortia . we 've spoken to local education authorities . we 've spoken to a wide variety of people to get their insight into the lessons learned , what was valuable and what was not valuable . so , a wide variety of people have been involved in those conversations . darren millar am: but you 've hardly engaged with mr ainscow—with professor ainscow himself . steve davies: i would actually say that i have had meetings— darren millar am: since march of last year . steve davies: yes , since march of last year . i have n't got the exact dates for you . i 've had discussions with mel ainscow , and my line manager at the time , owen evans , also had meetings and discussions . darren millar am: so , when he told us , 'since last march , i literally have had no contact at all with anybody from welsh government ' , he was telling porky pies , was he ? steve davies: that 's not my recollection . i 'll go back and check for you . lynne neagle am: if you could check and let us know , that would be good . mark . kirsty williams am: yes , well , i just talked about the celebration event to formally mark the end of the programme . my understanding was that it was july of last year , so people were engaged in that . and this idea that somebody has been ignored or frozen out is not how i see or how i regard that situation . lynne neagle am: mark . mark reckless am: i have to say , with professor ainscow my impression was he took great , great pride in the work that he 'd done with schools challenge cymru , and i think he really enjoyed the engagement , the work and the positive relations with the welsh government . but i think there was just a degree of disappointment , perhaps , that at least he did n't feel that he 'd been interrogated as much as he might have been about the lessons learned from the programme , and how perhaps to entrench those as well as possible with the regional consortia . i just wonder , cabinet secretary , if you could invite the professor in , perhaps to have a further debrief with you and take account of some of his thoughts and suggestions for what might help in this area . kirsty williams am: well , mark , as i said , i just do n't think it should be right to characterise this as a failure to engage with a single individual . mark reckless am: i 'm not characterising it that way , cabinet secretary . kirsty williams am: as i said , i met with him , steve has met with him , owen evans has met with him , my special policy adviser has met with him and had discussions . so , there has been an ongoing dialogue . but , mark , i hope that i have demonstrated since i took on this job that i am willing to work with a wide variety of people and to tap into their expertise if it can help me to deliver on the national mission . and if the advice to me is that we have n't sufficiently learnt the lessons , then i 'll gladly have another conversation . what i 'm saying to you—and i 'm absolutely confident—is that we have learnt the lessons , we are taking that work and the good practice forward , and we have done that with conversations with a wide variety of people who had a view on this , from individual schools that were involved in the programme , individual people who were working in those schools , local education authorities , some of which have been very scathing about the programme , i should say , regional consortia— . so , the lessons , i am confident , have been learnt . mark reckless am: i 'm glad to hear that , cabinet secretary , but i still say that , listening to professor ainscow 's evidence , there was a perception , at least from him individually , that the programme should not be seen to be a failure , but a desire that the lessons should be learnt and a feeling or exception , at least on his part , that there was more that he still had to contribute to the process . and just to take one particular example , i think he referred to the schools challenge cymru advisers being very successful in bringing in people who might not otherwise have contributed to this , and the regional consortia have had greater challenges in recruiting people , perhaps in some areas , of the same high standard of some particular individuals , but also from a wide range of different areas that the schools challenge cymru do , and that there could be more to learn in that area as to how to support real excellence and a greater diversity of recruitment for those people . is that something you could perhaps draw on his thoughts further about ? because i think he does feel that he has more to say to welsh government to help in this area . kirsty williams am: firstly , can i say that i have never described the programme as a failure ? i would understand , as someone who has put so much personal investment into the brand of schools challenges , that he would not want anybody to characterise that particular approach to school improvement as a failure . and i want to be absolutely clear that i have never described the programme as a failure , and i want to reassure mr ainscow of that . as i 've said , gosh , my goodness me , if you saw my e-mail inbox and you saw the letters that come in , people are never shy in coming forward to give me advice on what i need to do , what i need to do next , what i 'm doing right , what i 'm doing wrong , and , you know , our doors are always open to listen to people who have interesting things to say about how we can deliver our educational mission . so , people are n't slow in coming forward , i can assure you , with advice . lynne neagle am: julie . julie morgan am: just very quickly . i 'm sure the minister is aware that cardiff put extra funds of its own in to continue schools challenge cymru advisers . so , obviously , they appreciated the value of the scheme , but it does query whether it should have gone on longer . kirsty williams am: julie , i think , to be fair , there are some people who think the scheme was absolutely fantastic . i 've had feedback from people who did n't think the scheme was helpful at all—in fact , they felt it was a hindrance . i 'm very much of the view that the scheme worked really well for some schools in some areas and had less impact in some areas . there is a mixed picture . what 's important to me is that we understand what it was that led those schools to make those big changes , how we can—like mark talked about , the expertise—how we can keep that expertise in the system , and how we can apply the lessons to all schools . lynne neagle am: the next questions , and the final questions , are from john . so , we 're going to need succinct questions and succinct answers . john griffiths am: some questions on regional consortia , cabinet secretary , and , first of all , the role that you believe they should play and how schools use pdg . kirsty williams am: well , it 's an absolute— . it 's one of the things that i have been very clear to the regional consortia that i expect their challenge and support advisers to be asking schools about . so , one of the conversations that they need to have when they are in schools is exploring , with that school , how they are using their pdg , and how they 're demonstrating an impact for those resources . so , it 's a fundamental role for the challenge and support advisers in the regional consortia in their school improvement work . it 's crucial . john griffiths am: that sort of brings to mind some of the research that 's been done on the role of the challenge advisers , cabinet secretary , which suggested that they 're not actually challenging schools in that way , and that there 's very little evidence of schools changing their decisions on the use of pdg as a result of any challenge from those challenge advisers . so , how would you respond to those findings ? kirsty williams am: well , as i said , in my scrutiny of the role and success of our regional consortia , i specifically asked them about free-school-meal performance and the use of pdg within their particular region . i think there is increasing evidence to suggest that good use is being made of that resource , and i think that is being fed back into us . estyn tell us that it 's one of the areas of school expenditure that is closely linked to research and an evidence base . but , clearly , there is more to do , and that 's why we have appointed the new regional advisers for pdg going forward , because we think there can be improvements in how this agenda can be supported at a regional level . john griffiths am: okay . so , you would recognise the findings from that research . kirsty williams am: yes . there 's always more that we can do , and we are strengthening that role by the appointment of the new regional pdg advisers , so that individual school challenge advisers know what they should be looking for , know what they should be doing , and there is a regional approach to good practice . john griffiths am: okay . could you tell the committee , cabinet secretary , how effective you believe the relationship was between the schools challenge cymru programme and the regional consortia 's school improvement functions , and to what extent it varied by region ? kirsty williams am: i think it 's fair to say that , on occasion , i have received feedback that there was a conflict between what was going on at an individual school under the school improvement programme and whether , then , they welcomed support from the regional consortia as part of that . so , in some cases , if we 're being absolutely honest , there could sometimes be tensions between the two , but in most cases , the relationship was very , very positive and there was continuous feedback between the work going on in the schools under the programme and the regional consortia challenge advisers . but i 'm going to be blunt and honest with people—in some cases , it has been reported to me—it 's only anecdotal evidence ; i have n't got hard and fast evidence—that there sometimes was a conflict : 'we 're a school challenge school so we do n't need to participate or listen to any advice that 's coming from the regional consortia . ' or , a local education authority said to me , 'we felt that we could n't get involved in that school anymore because it was part of a different programme . ' those were isolated incidents , and , as i said , it 's only anecdotal feedback . in most cases , the relationship was a very positive one . steve davies: just very quickly , i think that , across the board , it was more complex in the beginning , getting— [ inaudible. ] . but when the programme itself recognised that they needed to work with the regions , and the regions needed to work with them—and i think mel ainscow in his evidence referred to this—it strengthened after some early challenges . i think mel ainscow was working in a number of regions—i ca n't remember which ones—so he 's established relationships— [ interruption . ] sorry ? kirsty williams am: central south . steve davies: central south . he has already been working in that , so i think it possibly had a stronger springboard in terms of the early working . kirsty williams am: because he already had relationships that he had already developed in that particular region . as always , with many of these things , it 's about individuals and relationships . john griffiths am: okay . finally from me , cabinet secretary : in 2015-16 , estyn reported on regional consortia not sufficiently focusing on particular groups of pupils and tracking their outcomes—for example , vulnerable pupils . i just wonder what you are able to tell us in terms of to what extent there has been necessary progress since 2015-16 . kirsty williams am: okay . well , i think it 's important to recognise that all four consortia underwent monitoring visits in the autumn of last year , of 2017 , which were n't reflected in the estyn annual report for 2015-16. estyn , through these 2017 inspections , have said that three out of the four regional consortia are making strong progress in their particular work , and we are continuing , as welsh government , to work with the other regional consortia to address the findings of the estyn report . john griffiths am: and that would include these particular issues . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . the committee probably has n't had an opportunity to see , but , only this morning , estyn has released a report on more able and talented , and has positive things to say in the field of more able and talented , which was being asked about earlier by members—you know , evidence of improved working and support in that particular arena . but , again , we need to ensure a consistency across all the regions , and that the findings of estyn 's most recent reports into regional performance are followed through . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . as we 've got a couple of minutes left , if i can just jump back to the issue of practical uses of the pdg—because it 's the only thing we have n't really covered and it would be good to get on the record—can i ask to what extent you 'd like to see the pdg used to track the progress of eligible pupils ? and the committee 's heard that there are several different tracking systems and tools used by schools . to what extent is that an issue to do with what the welsh government is promoting ? or is it down to consortia or individual schools ? and do you think there needs to be a more centralised push on how the tracking is undertaken ? kirsty williams am: firstly , can i say it 's absolutely crucial that we track performance , absolutely crucial ? that 's the bedrock . we do n't dictate to individual schools the nature of the system that they should employ in their school . there are a number of different programmes that allow schools to do this , but we are absolutely clear , and best practice and evidence shows us , that individual pupil tracking is key and crucial . and , as i said in the beginning , where we were n't tracking pupils at all , initial investment in pdg was used to establish these systems within schools . again , one of the outcomes from the schools challenge review , and one of the lessons learnt , was , again , the importance of individual tracking of pupils throughout their school career . but we do n't dictate a single system . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . kirsty williams am: but the principle is a really important one . lynne neagle am: okay , and you do n't think there 's more scope to look at what the best system is that can be recommended to schools . kirsty williams am: that 's not something we 're actively looking at . i am actively looking at developing a welsh toolkit around good practice , evidence base and research . at the moment we use the sutton trust toolkit , which is fine and excellent , but we are having active discussions about whether we 're in a position , now , to look at developing a suite of a welsh toolkit to support this agenda , and that 's under active consideration . lynne neagle am: okay . well , we 've reached the end of our session . can i thank the cabinet secretary and the officials for attending and for answering such a wide range of questions ? as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you again for coming . kirsty williams am: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: thank you . okay . item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the minister for children and social care on families first funding . paper to note 2 is a letter from the cabinet secretary for education , updating us on the supply teacher issue . paper to note 3—another letter from the cabinet secretary for education , providing further information following our meeting on 15 february . paper to note 4 is a letter from the wjec on availability of textbooks . paper to note 5—a letter from qualifications wales , also on availability of textbooks . and paper to note 6 is a letter from the cabinet secretary for education to the children 's commissioner for wales , following up on the dialogue that they 've been having about our inquiry . are members happy to note those ? thank you . item 4 , then , is for me to propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

according to kirsty williams , people should look at exclusions and also have to read across about how the whole system works , not just the pdg element of the system . 66 % of looked-after learners have some additional learning need , so they ca n't just look at it in terms of this particular source of funding . it ca n't be just the job of the pdg .

what lessons the government is taking from that three-year investment of schools challenge cymru into the school improvement agenda ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to this morning 's children , young people and education committee . we 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members who are present if they wish to declare any interests ? okay , thank you . item 2 this morning is our final evidence session for our inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams am , cabinet secretary for education ; steve davies , director of the education directorate ; and ruth conway , deputy director , support for learners division . welcome to all of you , and thank you for your attendance and also for the paper that you 've provided in advance . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions , and the first questions are from llyr gruffydd . llyr gruffydd am: bore da . i just want to start by asking some questions around the targeting of the pupil development grant because , clearly , we 've had a lot of evidence around this apparent blurring of eligibility to an extent . i 'm just wondering how comfortable you are that the money is being targeted appropriately because , clearly , it 's being targeted more widely than just those eligible for free school meals , from some of the evidence we 've had , but also that it seems to be predominantly focused on low-attaining frees—pupils who are eligible for free school meals . kirsty williams am: thank you , llyr . i think it 's important to be absolutely clear that when it comes to individual interventions , those individual interventions should only be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals . but in some cases , schools may use their pdg funding to provide a universal intervention , but we would want to—in challenge advisers ' discussions in schools—we 'd want to have evidence that that universal intervention would have a disproportionate effect on the outcomes for children on free school meals . so , for instance , if i give you an example in your own region , llyr : at brynteg county primary school in wrexham , if you look at that primary school in wrexham , their results for free-school-meal children at the end of their primary school period in school are equivalent to their non-free-school-meal counterparts . so , there is no differentiation in those results . one of the things that they 've used their pdg for is to really focus on the concept of growth mindset in school . so , that 's a universal thing that they 've trained all the teachers in , but what we know is that that has a disproportionate effect on those children who are on free school meals . so , if you 're familiar with the concept of a growth mindset , it 's about really challenging learners to think that , ' i can do things . if sometimes i fail , i pick myself up , i 'm more resilient . ' now , that has been , as i said , trained to all the teachers in the school—it 's an ethos for the whole school—but we have seen that the impact on the free-school-meal children has been even greater , and now they 're at the same level . so , that 's the important distinction . individual intervention per child has to be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals , but sometimes a school will employ a whole-school approach to train their staff , for instance , and that , then , has to demonstrate it has a disproportionate effect on free school meals . so , growth mindset ; it may be attachment disorder training for staff , for instance , where we know it 's of benefit to everybody , but will have particular benefits for that cohort of students . with regard to more able and talented , you know , llyr , that this is an area of concern for me , generally , within the welsh education system ; that we 've not been particularly good at identifying , supporting and driving attainment for those children . i 'm absolutely clear that pdg needs to be used for those children who are eligible to drive potential , whatever the potential of that child is , including more able and talented . and again , i 'll give you an example that has been seen as good practice in pembrokeshire : a window on the world bus , again paid for by schools . i do n't know if you 're aware of it . llyr gruffydd am: we 've heard about that . kirsty williams am: oh , you 've heard about it ; well , it 's a really good example the window on the world . and , again , that 's very much targeted at raising aspirations and giving children who are more able and talented , who are eligible for pdg , those experiences , and to really push them . so , yes , i 'm absolutely clear that pdg should n't just be seen to be getting individuals to the average . for those children who are more able and talented , it should be used to support them— llyr gruffydd am: and we all share those aspirations , i 'm sure , and you pointed to examples of good practice , but of course , it 's not universal , is it , so what i 'm asking is : do you think that the guidance is sufficient as it is ? do you think that there 's a great enough awareness of how the pdg should be used at the coalface ? and also , are you confident that consortia and others have the measures in place to be able to demonstrate that it is being used properly ? kirsty williams am: i think , if we look at what estyn has said about pdg , it does actually recognise that the pdg is being used to push more able and talented children , but as always with the system , llyr , it 's whether we can be sure that that is strategic and that it 's happening across all of our schools . so , you're— llyr gruffydd am: but not just in relation to more able and talented , i 'm referring to the eligibility and the targeting . kirsty williams am: oh , the eligibility . you 'll be aware that , on the advice of sir alasdair , we have employed and appointed new pdg regional advisers , and i think their role is going to be absolutely crucial in spreading that good practice across the region , whether that 's use of pdg for more able and talented , or ensuring that pdg is used in the appropriate way . so , that 's there to provide strategic overall advice . and obviously , we have been very clear with regional challenge advisers , in the relationship and the conversations they 're having with individual schools , that they 're really challenging their schools about the use of pdg , not just in terms of targeting , but the programmes , what the money is being spent on , whether there is an evidence base for that and whether we are clear on impact . so , i think the new regional advisers are going to be crucial in enabling us to ensure more consistent practice across the regions . llyr gruffydd am: so , are you content that eligibility for free school meals is the best measure , really , of identifying which pupils to target ? kirsty williams am: llyr , in the absence of anything better . i 'll be the first person to say that maybe it 's not as absolutely focused , but in the absence of anything different to identify a proxy for need , i think it 's probably the best that we 've got at present . and we will continue to have discussions with local government about whether there are different ways . we have to be mindful . some of the policy levers in this area are out of my hands , so if we look at the roll-out of universal credit , for instance , we 've got officials working very hard at the moment to try and understand what universal credit is going to mean and where we are going to be able to identify relative need , going forward . we have n't had any additional resource as a result of this , but we 're very mindful that , potentially , this has an impact , going forward . and , officials are working all of the time , i must say , in conjunction with the department in england , to understand their thinking in this area so that we are in a position to make some decisions about what a notional eligibility for free school meals will look like going forward , but before i make any decisions , i want to assure everybody that there will be a full public consultation on that . llyr gruffydd am: okay . finally for now , on this issue of once a year , in january , if you 're eligible for free school meals , then you 're in that group for that year . we 've had some quite strong evidence about how difficult that makes longer term planning for a number of schools and we 've also been pointed in the direction of what 's happened in england with the ever 6 , and i 'm just wondering whether you 're giving any thought to maybe changing that a little bit . kirsty williams am: well , we 're certainly giving thought to flexibility . in conversations with alasdair , who is our independent adviser on this agenda , and individual schools , we 're actively giving thought to greater flexibility and maybe longer term projections , so that schools know , for a number of years ahead , what their allocation will be . there are advantages to that system , because you could give that flexibility , you could give that long-term approach , but then , how do you make that responsive if a school suddenly has more children ? we do know that , actually , the number of free-school-meal pupils is dropping . but there can be changes , you know , regional working in areas of north wales in tourism , or maybe in other areas at christmas time , parents are able to get a period of work . so , how can we create a more flexible system ? we 're actively looking at that at the moment . i would n't use it as an ever 6 concept , but as an 'ever 2 ' concept . we have looked at ever 6 , and i 'm going to be absolutely blunt with you : to introduce an ever 6 concept for wales would mean in the region of identifying an additional £40 million . i 'm going to be absolutely straight and blunt with you : we 're not in a position at the moment to be able to identify an additional £40 million to introduce an ever 6. but issues around flexibility , certainly , are actively under consideration . in fact , we 'll be having a discussion later on today about decisions , going forward , for the next two years . llyr gruffydd am: thank you . lynne neagle am: darren on this . darren millar am: it 's just a very brief point in response to the £40 million price ticket that you just put on that . that 's , of course , assuming that you maintain the current level of pdg , yes ? so , if you reduced the level of pdg slightly , but made it available to more individuals , if you like , via allocating it in a different way , then that £40 million price ticket would n't be there , would it ? kirsty williams am: i was asked a question about had i ever considered an ever 6. we have looked at that , we 've priced that up . i have to make decisions in the envelope of resources that are available to me . we could , indeed , change the way in which we allocate pdg money , but we have to do it within the envelope that is available to me , over £90 million . that 's a significant level of investment , but , of course , as always , darren , we could cut the amount per pupil , but that might have quite challenging swings in allocations . what we have done—because what i am clear on is that there was evidence to suggest that in the secondary sector , a great deal of pdg was being focused on years 10 and 11 , especially year 11 , in catch-up provision , and you 'll be aware , because we 've said this in evidence to the committee in the papers , we 've set a challenge to secondary schools to say , 'actually , the majority of your pdg allocation has to be used in key stage 3 . ' now , we have to balance the needs , the moral hazard of turning round to children in years 10 and 11 and saying , 'we're not going to provide catch-up opportunities for you , ' because , clearly , those children need that support . but the evidence and the advice that we 're receiving is : actually , strong focus on early years , primary and key stage 3 , if we get that right , should negate the need for spending money on catch-up at years 10 and 11. that 's why we , in our advice to local authorities and schools , say that we want to see evidence that they 're spending this money earlier on in a child 's career , rather than just a scramble at year 11 to say , 'right , we 've got to get you through your exams . ' darren millar am: okay , but have you actively considered , then , reducing the level you have ? kirsty williams am: we've— ruth conway: sorry—i was just going to say that one of the things is looking at the scope of the definition , and i think it 's about being more flexible with the definition , rather than reducing the amount per head . darren millar am: okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you . if we can go on , then , to talk about some of the practical uses of the pdg , you write in your written paper that 'the majority of schools are making well thought out and appropriate decisions ' on how to use it . but estyn reported that only two thirds of primary and secondary schools make effective use of the pdg . given that we 've had it now for six years , would you not have expected there to be a higher level of schools actually making good use of that funding ? kirsty williams am: well , to flip it on its head , the vast majority of schools , as identified by estyn , are using this money to good effect . so , that 's the way i like to see it—that the vast majority of schools are doing well . what estyn has also indicated is the intrinsic link here to leadership within individual schools , and as you 'll be aware , leadership , improving capacity in leadership and developing leadership talent in the welsh education system is a key priority for me in our national mission . of course , that 's being developed in a different work stream . i think what 's fair to say is that the use of pdg is evolving over time . i think we are seeing , increasingly , more and more schools understanding how best to deploy that money for best effect for students . so , if we 're honest , when pdg first started , i think , in some schools it was spent on investing in tracking of children , because they 'd never thought about tracking these children , they did n't have systems in place to look at the performance of these children , and to have a system in place . so we 've moved now from spending money on the infrastructure around support for fsm children into actual inputs in terms of teaching and learning . we 're also seeing from estyn that , actually , in terms of money following the evidence of what we know works , estyn says that pdg is probably the best example of schools following tried and tested and evidence-based interventions to deploy the money . but clearly we want all of this money to be deployed as well as it can be , and again we come back to the decision i 've made to appoint regional pdg advisers so that we can get that better consistency of approach . we are , in the discussions that i have with the regional consortia about how they challenge individual schools on usage , looking for very clear evidence of schools using the sutton trust toolkit , and we could have a discussion about whether that 's the right thing , because that 's on my mind too . but we want to see schools demonstrating their evidence base , and if they 're not , if a school is n't doing that , okay , so demonstrate to us why you 've made those decisions and , crucially , what are you doing as the school to judge whether that decision is actually making a difference for your individual pupils . so , if you 're moving away from tried and tested interventions , what we know works , if you 're doing something different with your money , okay , you need to justify that and you need to explain how you 're going to demonstrate impact . but i think what we 're seeing is increasing good practice in this area as the pdg develops and as our understanding of our school-to-school working in our self-improving school system also develops . i think we 're seeing better usage of the money year on year . lynne neagle am: thank you . llyr on this . llyr gruffydd am: you mentioned some schools will be moving from the tried-and-tested interventions , really , and i 'm just wondering to what extent that evolution of use of pdg is being driven by cuts to core funding . kirsty williams am: no , i do n't think it 's being driven by cuts to core funding . i think there has been— . one of the biggest impacts of pdg has not been—well , i suppose it is the money in itself , because the money has concentrated the minds , has n't it ? so , one of the most important things that pdg has done is highlight the importance of this agenda within schools , and really raise this up in the thinking of leadership and senior management teams in our schools , and has driven a focus on scrutiny and accountability in the systems that are working with our schools . i think the changing use of pdg reflects the journeys that schools have been on , some of them from a very low base where this was not a priority for them , to better understanding , and as research and as intelligence grows over time in this area , both in wales and outside of wales , schools are increasingly learning to use that evidence to tailor approaches in their schools . llyr gruffydd am: so you would n't accept at all that some of this money 's being used to paper over some funding cracks from elsewhere . because the unions and some others have told us that , whether we like it or not , there is some of that going on . kirsty williams am: as i said , llyr , we 're very clear about the usage that this money can be spent on in terms of individuals or universal application within schools , and that forms an important part of the checks and balances that we have in our system . can we continue to improve , and ensure that more and more of our schools are employing best practice ? yes , we can , and as i 've said , we 've taken steps to put in place the infrastructure to support that . lynne neagle am: thank you . mark 's questions are next . mark reckless am: cabinet secretary , how would you assess the impact of pdg on attendance and hopefully subsequent engagement with education from children who have free school meals ? kirsty williams am: i think what 's important to note is that , as estyn have themselves said , over the period of the last inspection report , we have seen improvements in attendance , but i do think we need to , again , look at how pdg can support this particular agenda . and as always in the welsh education system , there are some excellent examples of how schools use the money to address this . ysgol y preseli in pembrokeshire is a very good example of how they 've deployed their money . forgive me ; i ca n't off the top of my head remember the name of the primary school i visited , again in north wales , where the school has proactively used this money , and they actually send teaching assistants out of school in the morning before the start of the school day , and they actually have a walking bus . they call at homes for children , and they walk the children to the breakfast club . so , they 're proactively going out into the community and making sure that those children are in the classrooms , because the teacher said , 'we recognised we had a problem with attendance . we tried a variety of means of improving that , but in the end we have taken this quite bold step—we actually send the staff out and they create that walking bus , and they walk the children into school ' . they say that they know that , for some of those children , because of the difficult circumstances they and their families are living in , they probably would n't be in school if it was n't for that proactive approach . so , we 're looking again at what more we can do to support this particular agenda in terms of improving attendance , because although , again , there are examples of good practice , there is still a gap between the attendance of free-school-meal pupils and non-free-school-meal pupils . and , of course , we can have the best curriculum in the world with really high-quality teaching , but unless the children are in the classes then we 're not going to make the difference for them . whilst that differential exists , then it 's going to be hard to close the attainment gap for those children . mark reckless am: i was actually quite shocked just reading in advance of this meeting that the proportion attending 95 per cent or more , who have pretty full attendance , was only 35 per cent for free-school-meal children at level 4 , compared to 60 per cent for non-free-school-meal pupils . it still is an extraordinary difference . my colleague here showed me , i think , last week , a graph showing the link between attendance and attainment , in particular . when people were absent , a lot of the— . as i 'm sure you 're aware , there 's a huge connection . what more can pdg do to deal with it ? in the example you give i can see how a school with an awful lot of free-school-meal children could do that , but a lot of the free-school-meal children are actually in schools that do n't have that high a proportion of free school meals , where it would be much more challenging to bring in that type of initiative . kirsty williams am: yes , indeed , and i think it gets more challenging the older the children get . i think it 's more difficult to find interventions that are successful higher up , so key stage 4. so , you can do a walking bus with little ones , ca n't you , but i do n't suppose your average 15 or 16-year-old is going to take very kindly to that . so , you do need a different approach to that . but again , we see in ysgol y preseli the employment of staff to directly work with families of older children to reinforce the messages around , as you quite rightly say , the linkage between attendance and attainment , and really work with individual families to understand the barriers to attendance : what 's going on in the family that is preventing that child from going to school , and what more can the school do to address those situations . but you 're absolutely right ; there is more that we need to do to address this particular agenda of attainment . i do n't know if there 's anything extra you wanted to add , steve . steve davies: there is also another very good example—and i take what you say about where there are small numbers—but in our secondary schools where there are significant numbers , they 're investing pdg in resources like a school nurse and a school counsellor , not just to work with the children but link to other agencies on whom the children and the families are dependent to support them in terms of working with schools . so , it 's something , particularly in our most challenging areas , where it can not just be delivered within the school . so , good use of that resource is being made to employ people to support them in those wider areas . mark reckless am: thank you . to what extent is pdg also used to seek to reduce the higher rates of exclusion for children entitled to free school meals ? kirsty williams am: so , if we looked at permanent exclusions , there is n't a differential , but if we look at temporary exclusions , there we see there is a disproportionate number of children on free school meals that are subject to those exclusions . again , i think what schools employing best practice understand is that you need a multi-agency approach to supporting that particular child . some of those exclusions can be as a result of the need to address other issues going on in a child 's life . so , this is where we come back to the committee 's work , for instance , on mental health and support for children , support for behaviour in school . so , again , it 's a multi-agency approach that i think we need , and , in our good schools , our really , really good schools , there 's a recognition of that need to have a whole team around a child to support that child in education . with eotas , we made some changes last year regarding pdg for eotas . so , for those children who do find themselves in education other than at school , we are providing additional support that previously was not available . mark reckless am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . we 're going to move on now to talk about the impact of pdg on attainment . hefin david has got some questions . hefin david am: it appears that the attainment gap at 2017 has actually widened , in spite of pdg levels . is that correct ? kirsty williams am: yes . so , if you look at it—with the usual caveats about whether you can make direct comparisons on level 2 plus between the exams the year before and the exams that we had last summer—on the face of it , the gap has increased . i think what 's important to recognise , hefin , is a direction of travel . i 'm sure we all want to , because i want to , have a discussion about why children on free school meals were less resilient in the exam system last year . but , if we look at the period that we have been employing pdg , over that period , we have seen a narrowing of the gap . i think what 's quite stark , if we think about it— . so , if we look at where we started from : in 2009 , one in five children on free school meals got level 2 plus—one in five—by 2016 , we had got that down to one in three . obviously , there 's still a way to go , but , sir alasdair , who knows about these things , says that that is a significant improvement . last year , we got some challenges . we need to understand why that happened , but i do think it's— hefin david am: why , do you think ? kirsty williams am: why , do i think ? what i do think is there is no one answer . there is no one answer to this . i think we could look at and we can have discussions around the move from btec to science gcses . i think we have supplied figures to the committee about the significant change in the number of children on free school meals who were n't doing a single science gcse and are now doing science gcses . we can look at the unintended consequences of literature . again , we 've supplied figures . where children have done language and literature , whether that be through the medium of english or through the medium of welsh , there is more resilience . so , it 's that exposure to literacy in all its forms that i think could potentially make a difference . so , i think there 's no one answer to why free-school-meal children were not so resilient last year . we continue to have discussions with qualifications wales to get a better understanding of this . at my next ministerial policy board , in may , we 'll be doing a deep dive into this particular subject . hefin david am: so , to what extent would exam boards be responsible for lack of grade stability ? kirsty williams am: it could be one of the contributory factors . what i think is important is that there is no one , single reason why there seems to be less resilience in this cohort of children . hefin david am: will you be speaking to the exam boards about this and raising concerns ? kirsty williams am: i have written to qualifications wales , we 've had discussions about it , but i 've asked them to formally submit evidence ahead of my policy board for may , where , as i said , we will be doing a formal , deep-dive discussion across the department about these issues . but , again , hefin , what we 've got to be clear on is—while we look at overall factors , you know , our overall national statistic—we did see some schools last year whose fsm performance was better than it had been the year before . so , what was it in those schools that enabled those children to do really well , whereas , in other schools , the performance was different ? even in individual cities , you can see a huge variety of performance . so , take cardiff and swansea , our two biggest cities . you 've got schools in those cities with comparative levels of free school meals . so , you could have really high-performing schools with a very small number of the cohort on free school meals . the difference between those performances in a single city—so , that 's the same local education authority and the same regional consortium—you can see a massive change . there 's one school i can talk to : their free-school-meal performance is 88 per cent . a similar school in the same city with the same proportion of children on free school meals , their performance is down in the 20 per cents . so , i think what 's important is that we ca n't draw broad-brush conclusions . for me , the challenge is to go into individual schools and understand what was happening in that particular school that ensured that their children did really well . we 've got one school in swansea , their fsm performance at gcse level 2 outperforms non-fsm pupils . hefin david am: but we still need to rely on the trends from a distance . if we take your argument that 2017 was an unusual year and the trends up to 2016 were positive , in a few years ' time , when we will be looking back in two years ' time , how are we going to measure this progress , say , in 2019 ? what are we likely to see and what methods are you going to use to measure progress that way ? kirsty williams am: well , you 'll be aware that we are moving away from level 2 plus as a performance measure anyway because of the— hefin david am: so , what performance measures will you use ? kirsty williams am: so , for the lack of sophistication around the level 2 plus , and for the unintended behaviours that that particular performance measure has driven within our schools . i 'll be making a statement shortly to the assembly around a new performance measure for schools . we were , at our most recent secondary heads conference , working with schools to develop that . what 's important to me is that we have a more sophisticated model that looks at school performance for all children . what level 2 plus does is narrow , very much , the focus of schools on an individual part of the cohort , usually the c/d borderline , which is why then we have problems with the number of students getting a b grade or above . we have marked success in our schools by saying to schools that a c is good enough . well , if a child gets a c but came to you in year 7 and they were destined to get an e , yes , indeed , a c is a success , because you 've moved that child on ; but , if that child came to you destined to get an a * and gets a c , then we have n't done a good job by that particular child . so , we need a performance measure that is much more sophisticated , looks at each individual child , tracks that progress , and measures the value added by that school in performance . hefin david am: last question : therefore , should we have confidence in the data up to 2016 ? is there a lack of confidence in that data ? kirsty williams am: no , it 's not a lack of confidence in the data . the data is the data . what i 'm saying is , using that as a performance measure and an accountability measure within our school system may have been right for the time . i think it is now right to have a different way of measuring success in schools . i think that particular set of performance measures has driven certain behaviours—not because ministers wanted that to happen , but as an unintended consequence . i think we can work together with our school system , learning the lessons of international best practice , to develop much more sophisticated accountability and performance measures for individual schools , and , i should say , for the government . so , you will be aware of my intention to issue the first national report card on government performance later on this year . so , this is not about trying to avoid scrutiny . it 's about trying to develop a more sophisticated way , which is in line with our national mission , where every child 's education is valued , and where the impact of the school can be tracked more effectively . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . can i just ask , cabinet secretary , are you still holding on to your target of 37 per cent of free-school-meal pupils achieving the level 2 threshold ? kirsty williams am: well , we 're moving away from the level 2 threshold . so , that 's the first thing to say . so , we will want to develop a new suite , in line with our new accountability measures , as we go forward . so , we will be absolutely continuing to track and evaluate the performance of free-school-meal pupils . when we announce our new accountability measures , i will be in a position to address how we 'll measure the government's performance , and national performance , going forward . but , given the fact that we 're moving away from level 2 plus , then we will need a different set of performance indicators . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the next questions are on looked-after children and adopted children , and i 've got questions from michelle then mark . michelle brown am: thank you . good morning— mark reckless am: i was to come in first , i think . i was about to ask about icf consulting . lynne neagle am: go on then . mark reckless am: i think my questions are first , but , michelle , please do correct me if you were planning to come in before . the pdg for looked-after children does n't quite seem to have the degree of visibility as the pdg for the free-school-meals . i think we had the mori/wiserd survey—only 15 per cent of primary schools and 23 per cent of secondary schools were aware that pdg was targeted at looked-after children . i just wonder—can you clarify on the record here what is the role of schools with pdg for looked-after children as compared to the regional consortia in this field ? kirsty williams am: okay . i think it is absolutely fair to say that most awareness around pdg is around free school meals . there is less awareness around the availability of pdg to support looked-after children . i think that 's probably in the nature of the cohort , so , there are more children subject to free school meals than are subject to being looked after . so , i think that 's part of the explanation . a decision was taken in 2015 to regionalise pdg for looked-after children . my understanding was that the thinking behind that at the time was around a greater strategic deployment of that resource and to try and drive a greater impact than how it was being used previously . so , looked-after pdg is held at a regional level . we have looked-after children pdg co-ordinators—they 're in their second year this year—to look at a regional deployment of that resource . and that resource can be done in a variety of ways , through individual allocation to a school to support an individual child , through to capacity building for the whole system . so , for instance , if i give you an example , in carmarthenshire , there 's been a big emphasis on attachment disorder and training teachers with regard to the impact of attachment disorder . carmarthenshire happens to be one of those local authorities that does quite well in terms of attainment for looked-after children . but , clearly , i have—not concerns . 'concerns ' is n't the right word . but i have asked officials to give greater scrutiny to how that resource has been used in the last year . steve , on my behalf , wrote out to the system , setting out our expectations , but also advising them of the fact we will be asking very detailed questions of accountability for that money . so , what has that money been used on and how can you account for the effect ? but , steve , maybe you can give some greater detail . steve davies: i think the challenge that— . one of the rationales for shifting—not that all the money stays in the region , but having a regional strategic support—was that , historically , the money was going directly with that child to the school . given the quite often rapid turnover of children in schools—the very nature of looked-after children is they do sometimes move through foster parents—historically , what happened , the money lands in the school , because , at that time in the year , when it 's measured , the school gets the money and can spend it on some additional support for staff , but quite often that child moves on to another school and the money does n't transfer . some schools will go through quite a number of years without having a looked-after child and will not think strategically , 'how do i need to support them ? ' so , that was the rationale of the shift . in terms of the implementation of the regional allocation , as of this financial year finishing , we are going into local authorities and regions to evaluate where they 've located the resource , what the impact of that resource has been , so that is reinforced and shared more widely . kirsty williams am: and then , to reassure , it 's not just internally that we 're looking at this . we have a contract with an external agency to do an evaluation— mark reckless am: that 's icf consulting . kirsty williams am: yes . yes , so that was done in the autumn of last year , because , as i said , we had concerns about whether this was really having the effect that was intended . so , my expectation is that we will be in a position to receive that report later on this spring , and of course it would be my intention that that report would be made public for people to have a look at what— mark reckless am: that was commissioned last autumn— kirsty williams am: yes , in november 2017 . mark reckless am: november 2017 . kirsty williams am: so , i 'm hoping to have that published before the summer recess . i 'm very reluctant to say months ; i 've learnt not to say months , because they move . lynne neagle am: i 'm going to go to michelle now , mark , because— mark reckless am: sure . i will come back in if i have anything further to ask here after michelle . lynne neagle am: —both of you asked for these questions , and that 's what the pre-meeting is for . mark reckless am: michelle , i defer to you . lynne neagle am: michelle . michelle brown am: okay , thank you . would you be open , cabinet secretary , to the idea of adjusting the eligibility of the pdg so that pupils who have been looked after or adopted at any point within a previous given period of time would attract the pdg , rather than only if they 're looked-after on a one-off date ? kirsty williams am: as i said earlier , in questions from , i think it was , llyr , who was talking about concepts of concepts of ever 6 , we are constantly looking at how we can get that balance between focus and flexibility for this resource . llyr opened with the question of , 'how can you absolutely ensure that these children are getting the money ? ' , but then there 's also a tension about how can you create some flexibility around the school 's usage of the grant . so , we will look at that . i think there is the issue of where a school would know of a child that was looked after . issues around adoption are slightly more sensitive , because we could n't force a family to tell a school that their child was an adopted child . so , a family may be very open and very keen to explain that to a school , but we ca n't necessarily track as closely children who have been adopted , especially if that adoption happens before the child goes to school . we ca n't be in a position of forcing families to disclose this information if they do n't want to , but we certainly can , as i say , look to strengthen our monitoring arrangements around pdg support for looked-after children and the impact that that 's having . i just think we need to be a bit mindful of people 's privacy in some instances . if they do n't want to divulge that , it would n't be my job to tell a family , 'you have to let us know if your child is adopted . ' lynne neagle am: michelle . michelle brown am: fair enough ; thank you for that answer . the eas consortium 's approach to using the looked-after and adopted pdg is to use it as part of a broader approach targeted at vulnerable learners in general . what are your views on that approach ? kirsty williams am: i 'm a great believer in if we can get it right for our most vulnerable learners , we 'll be getting it right for all of our learners . i gave the example earlier , for instance , of attachment disorder , and , chair , you will know that i have had conversations . one of the emerging themes for me , as i go around visiting schools , is the impact and the growing awareness and the growing numbers of children who have attachment disorder , and how schools are best able to respond to that in their children . so , for instance , as i said about carmarthenshire , there 's been a huge effort to address that in the school sector in carmarthenshire . now , that has a disproportionate benefit for those children , because you 're more likely to see attachment disorder in children who are care experienced , because of the nature of the lives that those children have lived , but that does n't necessarily mean that attachment disorder is exclusively found in those children that are looked after . it can be found in other families as well . so , that vulnerable learner , regardless of their background , will benefit from having teachers who are better trained , understanding and have intervention strategies in place to be able to address that need . steve davies: i think it 's also important to add that this is not one region 's approach ; this is across four regions , so the others— . for example , erw have run a significant programme looking at the impact of adverse childhood experiences on pupils , which has enabled teachers to detect some of the impact of some of those and then considers some of the work they need to do within the school but also with other agencies . so , it is something that's applied consistently across the four regions . kirsty williams am: i was in pil primary school recently where they use their pdg , both fsm pdg , and no doubt an element of pdg for looked-after , for nurture groups . so , for those children who really , really find it very difficult to be in the main classroom , they can have that nurture group experience to address issues around emotional behaviour , feelings , and it gets them in a position where they are able then to join the main classroom because issues around behaviour have been addressed and they 're in a better position to learn . so , again , this is an example of how vulnerable learners in the wider sense can benefit . lynne neagle am: okay . mark , did you have anything you wanted to ask ? mark reckless am: yes . can i follow up on tracking adopted children ? i entirely understand that you ca n't force parents to disclose that their child is adopted . however , my understanding was that , in england , there was a dataset with social services that was shared with schools in a way that i 'm not clear is happening in wales and how , if at all , that links to the pupil level annual school census data . perhaps sort of linked to that , is n't there an argument for making the parents of adopted children in the schools , potentially , with adopted children more aware that adopted children who were previously looked after have this potential grant , and would they not be more willing to disclose this , at least confidentially to the school and government , if they knew there was this upside of doing so ? kirsty williams am: we 're actively looking at whether we should try and find a way of collecting this data , with the caveats that i just gave earlier . we ca n't force parents to divulge information that is a matter for them , nor would i want to . but there is an active discussion going on at the moment about whether we could create a dataset where people divulge this information and we can then track the children through . you 're absolutely right . one of the ways in which we can often encourage take-up , for instance , of free school meals , especially in those communities where there is a sense of reluctance to apply for support—even though people are entitled to it , there 's a reluctance to do it ; sometimes we see this in rural areas— . actually , appealing to the parents by saying , 'actually , this will mean more money for your child 's school budget' is a much more compelling reason why people will apply for it then saying , 'actually , it 's going to help you ' , because they do n't want to be seen being dependent , they do n't want to be seen being helped . but , if you say to them , 'actually , do you know that this means more money for your child 's school ? ' , they go , 'oh , all right then , i 'll fill in the forms now . ' so , you 're right , i think there is something that we could do to make parents understand , in the round , that this has an impact . but we are actively looking at and discussing whether we could create a dataset around adopted children and how we can do that in line with data protection and data sharing . one of the things i am concerned about in the performance of looked-after children generally is how we can , across government , work more closely together . we ca n't see the educational attainment of looked-after children just being a job of education . it 's got to be a job of social services and the health service as well . there 's got to be a joined-up approach to doing that . now , officials were at the ministerial advisory group that 's chaired by david melding on prospects for looked-after children . they were there at the group last week . david tells me that the paper was very positively received by the group . i will be sitting down with david melding to talk through what more we can do on the education side . i think there 's really an appetite between me and the minister for children to get a closer working relationship on this . we ca n't expect schools to do it on their own and alone . and there are things that we can do out there in local authorities to help improve outcomes . it 's not just about the pdg ; it is about , when social services are thinking about a placement , where does the discussion about where children are going to go to school—when does that take place ? do we talk about the placement , move a child and then think , 'oh my goodness me , what are we going to do about the schooling ? ' if you can imagine , the school could have been working really , really hard with a pupil to get them in a good place , to get them being able to access the curriculum , and then social services decide that the placement is being changed . so , we potentially lose all of that . so , a greater involvement in education and better linked-up working in local authorities will help us with this . it ca n't be just the job of the pdg . if we think we can crack this with just pdg , then we 're being delusional . it has to be a cross-government approach at a national level , and at a local government level as well , to get this right . sometimes , data protection—how can we break down some of these barriers between , you know , the school does n't need to , schools should n't see , the entire social services report ? well , maybe the school does need to see some of that background information if they 're going to have an impact for that child . so , there 's more work to do , but it can not be just the job of education on its own if we 're going to make a difference , nor can it just be the job of the pdg to make a difference for those children . lynne neagle am: thank you . julie 's got some more questions on the impact on adopted and looked-after children . julie morgan am: yes , before i go on to those , i just wanted to support , really , what mark was saying about adopted children and how important it is , i think , that the adoptive parents feel able to speak to the school and to give information . because certainly any evidence we 've had from adoptive parents , and generally knowing about what adoptive parents do feel , is that they often feel that there 's a degree of a lack of sensitivity in the school about the issues of adoption . i would certainly support some move towards ensuring that the atmosphere was open in a way that would encourage them to realise that it would be a help for the children if there was an awareness in the school . so , i just wanted to really reinforce that . kirsty williams am: yes , and that would chime with what i hear from many adoptive parents . i 'm just trying to be sensitive by saying we ca n't force people to divulge this information if they do n't want to . julie morgan am: no , but they need to be given the opportunity . kirsty williams am: yes , you 're right . we need to make sure that those parents feel that they can discuss this with school leaders and classroom teachers and explore how best those individual children can be supported , and how best we can support parents . because , again—and i 've said this a lot—after the quality of teaching , the second biggest impact on a child 's educational outcome will be parental engagement . so , being able to create an environment where adoptive parents feel very confident and able to talk about their children 's education is absolutely crucial if we 're going to get that parental engagement that we need for all of our children . julie morgan am: yes . thank you . going on to looked-after children , you say that the latest data on looked-after children 's attainment is extremely disappointing . can you expand on that and what effect the pdg has had in this result , or not had ? kirsty williams am: well , there 's no getting away from it : the way in which we currently measure outcomes for looked-after children , the results are not good enough . it 's a source of huge concern to me that we need to do better for those children . that 's why officials are engaging with the group that david melding is chairing , to make sure that education is integral to that group and it 's not lost sight of . there 's a discussion to be had about the cohort , whether it 's right and correct to compare looked-after children to the main cohort , or whether these statistics are useful in any way . sometimes as well—this is not to make an excuse because , as i 've said in my paper , it 's extremely disappointing , but sometimes it can be really difficult . because the cohort sometimes can be very , very small , it can swing the statistics to look perhaps more dramatic . julie morgan am: i think , generally , when you look at how looked-after children do— kirsty williams am: it 's not good . julie morgan am: —in a much wider evaluation , they 're not doing well , are they ? kirsty williams am: they 're not doing well . so , that 's why we 've got the review , the independent review , into the impact of the pdg in this area . this is why steve is doing the work that he is doing with the regional consortia because , clearly , at the moment , we are not doing what we need to do for that particular cohort of children . i would not make any bones about that at all . steve davies: i think we will not move away from the fact that these children need good gcses to gain employment , so we 'll continue to measure that . i think we need to look at more nuanced evaluations of the data at a lower level . so , for example , there were significant improvements in terms of pdg pupils who got three and four good gcses but did n't get past the threshold . that 's not to cover anything that is not working in terms of improvement , but we will look at the full range and still hold on to the fact that we have to look at a measure that relates to the likelihood of these children going on to further education and training . julie morgan am: and then just one more question about the exclusion rates amongst looked-after children . they are , i understand , over six times more likely to be given a fixed-term exclusion . so , is there any way of trying to address this ? is the pdg used for anything to do with exclusions ? kirsty williams am: we can look at exclusions . we also have to read across about how the whole system works , not just the pdg element of the system . so , we know , for example , that 66 per cent of looked-after learners have some additional learning need , so we ca n't just look at it in terms of this particular source of funding ; we have to look at it at a wider level of support . so , given that the majority of those children will have an aln , how can we make sure that our new aln legislation and our new aln regime meets the needs of these children ? so , i think what we 're looking at , again , is to say that it ca n't be just the job of the pdg . that 's there as an additional level of support , but actually , we 've got to get our aln right . unless we get our aln right , lots and lots of these children are not going to get the support that they need day in , day out via that system . we do know that sometimes , if we 're not addressing aln , then we 're not addressing behaviour issues that then potentially lead to an expulsion or potentially lead to non-attendance . so , we 've got to look at it in the round and recognise the connections between the sometimes quite complex needs that these children have within the school setting , that are not just as a result of the fact that they 're looked after ; they have other needs as well . steve davies: and investment in well-being— kirsty williams am: absolutely . steve is reminding me that that 's why well-being is part of the national mission—to address issues around supporting children with their well-being , which is a way of keeping them in school . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 're going to move on to schools challenge cymru now . llyr . llyr gruffydd am: thank you , chair . i was just wondering what your assessment is as to why some schools made progress and others did n't . kirsty williams am: i think we have to recognise that the 39 schools that were part of the programme were in very , very different places . so , i think one of the reasons why some schools did well was because their needs were not so complex , not so deep-seated and a certain level of intervention was enough to get them moving forward . some schools had very , very different needs . i think , talking to those involved in the programme , as always , we had some support advisers , challenge advisers working with those schools as part of the programme who were really , really excellent and really good , and were the right fit for the school and really drove the school onwards . we had other people employed in the programme who , perhaps , were less effective at driving change within those individual schools . so , what we have is a mixed bag of performance , again reflecting the very different challenges that those schools were facing , which led them to be chosen for the programme in the first place . llyr gruffydd am: yes , okay— steve davies: sorry . one of the other key additional factors was the extent to which there had been recent appointment of a new headteacher to that school just before the programme had started , because— kirsty williams am: leadership is all . llyr gruffydd am: and that was seen as a positive . steve davies: a positive , yes . i think one of the challenges is that sometimes the time it takes to make changes in leadership can be protracted and can be a barrier , sometimes , to the speed with which you can move . but , for a significant minority of the schools , there had been recent new appointments of headteachers , which was seen to be contributing , when you looked at the evaluation , to the speed with which they were able to engage . llyr gruffydd am: the reason i was asking was i wanted to understand what lessons the government is taking from that three-year investment , really , and how , maybe , you 're applying some of those lessons to your wider school improvement programme . i know professor mel ainscow identified six interconnected lessons , although i also note that the cabinet secretary did n't actually meet him for about six or seven months after coming into post . so , i 'm just wondering , can you give us confidence that , actually , you are serious about taking lessons from schools challenge cymru and applying them to the wider school improvement agenda ? kirsty williams am: well , absolutely , llyr . i do n't think anything should be read into when i met the individual concerned , because officials were meeting the individual concerned . individual challenge advisers were meeting with the regions , there was crossover work with the fsm agenda as well , and we are absolutely determined that best practice and those interventions that drove school improvement are embedded in the new support that we have via the regional consortia . it 's no coincidence that some of the best people that were employed by schools challenge cymru are now in the employment of our regional consortia . so , those people that were really good and really made a difference do n't work for the schools challenge cymru scheme any more , they work for our regional school improvement services . so , we 're absolutely determined . the things that we have learned , as always , are around leadership . it is absolutely key and crucial to have strong , capable school leadership as a driver for change within the system . we 're looking at systems and processes , so , actually , has a school got in place comprehensive systems of tracking and processes within the school ? we 're looking at the teacher quality—how can we ensure that we have got consistent strategies in place to drive up pedagogy and teacher quality in the classroom ? collaborative activity—again , absolutely key . a school can not see itself in isolation , and one of the key themes of the national mission is a self-improving system , so , collaborative working where schools are looking outside of each other , learning from best practice from other schools . so , there are lots of things that we 've drawn from the evaluation that you will see as key themes running through the national mission , and , as i said , it 's no coincidence that our really good people that were working in schools challenge cymru are now working for the regional consortia , being able to use that expertise not just for a very small proportion of our schools—but that expertise is available to all our schools . llyr gruffydd am: although estyn has told us , of course , that you ca n't expect the consortia to really carry on with that level of intervention and the same kind of intensity as was provided previously , so i 'm just wondering— kirsty williams am: in what way ? llyr gruffydd am: well , we were told by estyn in evidence that they did n't necessarily think that we could expect the consortia to provide the same type of tailored support , and certainly the level of intensity with the improvement boards and everything— kirsty williams am: well , the improvement boards are carrying on , so the improvement boards still exist , and i would—not that i want to argue with estyn— llyr gruffydd am: well , feel free ; this is your opportunity to do so if you— kirsty williams am: what i would say is that those improvement boards are staying on , and our schools categorisation system is used to identify the level of support . now , if you 're a red school , that gives you the entitlement to 25 days of support . that is more than you would have got under the schools challenge cymru programme , which would 've been 20 days . so , actually , moving to this system allows us to really focus in on those schools that need that intensive level of support . and what 's important for me , llyr , in this , okay , is that those schools are not necessarily just the schools that were in the programme . our system now of challenge , advice and support allows us to target resources across all of our schools and across all of our sectors , because you 'll be aware that schools challenge was only available to secondary schools , not available to primary schools . what our system now allows us to do , via the schools categorisation , is to identify schools , wherever they are in wales and whatever sector they 're in , to have that intensive level of support that they need to make improvements . llyr gruffydd am: so , you 're confident that that level of momentum is continuing through the consortia that was previously enjoyed by those particular schools , and you 're also confident that there is minimal risk that they 'll slip back to where they were , potentially , or at least part of the way back . kirsty williams am: well , actually , there are some really good examples of some of the schools challenge cymru schools making that sustained improvement now that the programme has come to an end . you only have to look at tredegar , where we have seen continual improvement and moving up through the categorisation system . that school is now a green school , so they 've been able to sustain their progress at the end of the programme . if we look at armando in eastern high school , again—gosh , my goodness me , we had lots of debates in a previous chamber about the future of eastern . there was one person that said that eastern had to be closed and that the only way forward for that particular school was for it to be shut down , but what we have seen is investment via schools challenge cymru , but ongoing , continual support from the regional consortium , and that school has come out of special measures . i pay absolute tribute to the staff of that school and that community that have done such a good job . so , i 'm absolutely convinced that where we 've got good leadership and good support , some of those schools are making continued , sustained progress even after the end of the programme . the challenge for me is for those schools that schools challenge cymru did n't work for , and we have n't seen that progress—how we can use our school improvement system now to continue to work with those schools to give them the level of support that they need to make a difference . so that 's what my focus is on now : a whole-system approach , rather than choosing 39 schools to get that level of support , when we recognise that there are schools everywhere , potentially , that need intervention , support and challenge , and in the primary sector as well . llyr gruffydd am: okay . so , you would n't agree with a number of—well , the near-unanimous evidence that we 've had from academics , some of whom are government advisers from consortia et cetera , that this kind of programme such as schools challenge cymru would probably need about five years to really have the impact that it was intended to have . kirsty williams am: what i would say is that , from my understanding , from the outset , it was a time-limited programme . the schools were aware of that . there were no surprises that it was supposed to be a time-limited programme . evidence from across the uk showed that school challenge programmes have differed in time . so , for instance , manchester 's challenge was a three-year programme . so , there 's no consensus about how many years you need to run a programme for . the previous minister was quite clear about the time-limited nature of the programme . that 's not to say it was the wrong decision , because what 's important , and an ongoing legacy of the programme , was the investment in regional school improvement capacity , because at the time our school improvement services and the regions were young , in their infancy . the ability of individual local authorities to make a difference , with so many local authorities in an estyn categorisation , was limited , so one of the ongoing legacies of the programme is that significant investment of over £10 million in the capacity of the regions to be able to continue this support and the school improvement work . llyr gruffydd am: so , how disappointed were you that the money for schools challenge cymru went back into reserves and did n't stay in your envelope , as you described it earlier ? i presume you made a pitch for it . did you make a case for that money to stay within your department ? kirsty williams am: llyr , we are constantly having discussions with the minister for finance around support for the education budget . the minister for finance was quite clear that it was a time-limited programme . we were able to secure investment from the finance minister to be able to secure the programme and run it and phase it out to make sure there was transition support , so as we moved from the schools challenge programme into the regional consortia , there were resources to do that . llyr gruffydd am: did you feel there was a case to be made to add to the consortia 's resources and be able to continue that level of support that schools had previously had ? kirsty williams am: well , we did make resources available to the regional consortia to do that . as i say , from the outset , the previous minister was very clear it was a time-limited programme . certainly the schools that i talk to— . and i want to be absolutely clear : i have visited many , many schools challenge cymru schools . i have used that opportunity to talk to them about—heolddu being one of them , hefin , which we went to visit , and willows , for instance . i 'm going to one this afternoon—i 'm going to st illtyd 's this afternoon , and i always take— . i 've been to caergybi in anglesey . i always take the opportunity to speak to those teachers about their experience of the programme and to understand and assure myself that they are getting ongoing support that they see as an appropriate level for them . i think i 've done 19 of the schools . lynne neagle am: hefin on this . hefin david am: with regard to it being a time-limited programme , the previous minister was clear that it was a time-limited programme , but it was n't quite as time-limited as you 've decided to be . is that fair to say ? kirsty williams am: no , it was supposed to be a three-year programme at the most . so , there 's no differential between when i decided it was time-limited and the expectations— hefin david am: so the time limit was the same that the previous minister put on it . kirsty williams am: yes . no change . llyr gruffydd am: but mel ainscow did tell us that there was a fade out in that third year—not that people were giving up , do n't get me wrong , but clearly there was n't that commitment coming from government because the decision had been made , and people felt that it was just fizzling out a little bit , and that impacted on the momentum . kirsty williams am: i would n't characterise it as that . i think there certainly was a transition phase when we knew that the programme was moving and schools were moving into a different level of support , but i certainly would n't describe it as a fading out—not at all . as i said , we were aware that the programme was transitioning and we were determined to get that right for those individual schools , and to learn the lessons and , crucially , to be able to apply those lessons right across the board . steve davies: i can see where the perception would come if a programme director like mel was managing the programme right to the end of the three years exactly the same , and it falls off—not a cliff , but it falls off , then the readiness for schools and the readiness in the system to hand over—so part of the shift of focus was that working as a government with the programme in those schools to working with the programme , those schools and the region . so , i think , inevitably , one party might see it as a decrease in terms of emphasis on their work , but it was necessary for the transition . llyr gruffydd am: but does that cast a bit of a shadow over the transition , then—that one key player within that process felt as such , or are you confident that that was managed well and effectively ? kirsty williams am: i think it was managed well , and we were very clear to recognise success where success has been achieved , but not to gloss over where the programme had not made an impact , because that would n't be good for anybody . there was a formal event to close the programme , which gave everybody an opportunity to get together , to be formally thanked , and for , as i said , congratulations to be given to those people who had really made a difference and , crucially , key staff transferred over into the regional consortia . so , for those individuals , they were able to continue their work , but just be able to apply that work on a regional basis rather than just in an individual school . so , i do n't see that there was any fading out , but there was a transition into a new system , and many of those key personnel transitioned into the system with us . lynne neagle am: have you got any figures for the numbers of staff who went from the programme into the consortia ? kirsty williams am: not off the top of my head , but i can let you know . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got darren first , then mark . kirsty williams am: and can i just say , i met with some of them ? i met with a selection of those people who had been involved in the programme to get their feedback on what they felt had gone right , and what they did n't feel had gone right in the programme . so , i took the time not just to meet the figurehead of the programme , but actually to meet the people who were doing the work in the individual schools . sorry . darren millar am: yes , i just wanted to ask you , you mentioned the figurehead there , i assume by 'the figurehead ' you mean professor ainscow . and you 've mentioned as well that you said you wanted to learn lessons from schools challenge cymru , but he told us that nobody had been in touch with him since march of last year in order to have any sort of follow-up engagement , or to have a dialogue about his perspective on what worked , what did n't work , why there were failures in some areas and why there were successes in others . why have n't you sought that level of engagement with the person who was responsible for running the programme ? kirsty williams am: i 've had that conversation with mr ainscow . we had the evaluation of the programme . we 've spoken to the people who were actually involved in running the programme on a daily basis in individual schools . we 've spoken to the regional consortia . we 've spoken to local education authorities . we 've spoken to a wide variety of people to get their insight into the lessons learned , what was valuable and what was not valuable . so , a wide variety of people have been involved in those conversations . darren millar am: but you 've hardly engaged with mr ainscow—with professor ainscow himself . steve davies: i would actually say that i have had meetings— darren millar am: since march of last year . steve davies: yes , since march of last year . i have n't got the exact dates for you . i 've had discussions with mel ainscow , and my line manager at the time , owen evans , also had meetings and discussions . darren millar am: so , when he told us , 'since last march , i literally have had no contact at all with anybody from welsh government ' , he was telling porky pies , was he ? steve davies: that 's not my recollection . i 'll go back and check for you . lynne neagle am: if you could check and let us know , that would be good . mark . kirsty williams am: yes , well , i just talked about the celebration event to formally mark the end of the programme . my understanding was that it was july of last year , so people were engaged in that . and this idea that somebody has been ignored or frozen out is not how i see or how i regard that situation . lynne neagle am: mark . mark reckless am: i have to say , with professor ainscow my impression was he took great , great pride in the work that he 'd done with schools challenge cymru , and i think he really enjoyed the engagement , the work and the positive relations with the welsh government . but i think there was just a degree of disappointment , perhaps , that at least he did n't feel that he 'd been interrogated as much as he might have been about the lessons learned from the programme , and how perhaps to entrench those as well as possible with the regional consortia . i just wonder , cabinet secretary , if you could invite the professor in , perhaps to have a further debrief with you and take account of some of his thoughts and suggestions for what might help in this area . kirsty williams am: well , mark , as i said , i just do n't think it should be right to characterise this as a failure to engage with a single individual . mark reckless am: i 'm not characterising it that way , cabinet secretary . kirsty williams am: as i said , i met with him , steve has met with him , owen evans has met with him , my special policy adviser has met with him and had discussions . so , there has been an ongoing dialogue . but , mark , i hope that i have demonstrated since i took on this job that i am willing to work with a wide variety of people and to tap into their expertise if it can help me to deliver on the national mission . and if the advice to me is that we have n't sufficiently learnt the lessons , then i 'll gladly have another conversation . what i 'm saying to you—and i 'm absolutely confident—is that we have learnt the lessons , we are taking that work and the good practice forward , and we have done that with conversations with a wide variety of people who had a view on this , from individual schools that were involved in the programme , individual people who were working in those schools , local education authorities , some of which have been very scathing about the programme , i should say , regional consortia— . so , the lessons , i am confident , have been learnt . mark reckless am: i 'm glad to hear that , cabinet secretary , but i still say that , listening to professor ainscow 's evidence , there was a perception , at least from him individually , that the programme should not be seen to be a failure , but a desire that the lessons should be learnt and a feeling or exception , at least on his part , that there was more that he still had to contribute to the process . and just to take one particular example , i think he referred to the schools challenge cymru advisers being very successful in bringing in people who might not otherwise have contributed to this , and the regional consortia have had greater challenges in recruiting people , perhaps in some areas , of the same high standard of some particular individuals , but also from a wide range of different areas that the schools challenge cymru do , and that there could be more to learn in that area as to how to support real excellence and a greater diversity of recruitment for those people . is that something you could perhaps draw on his thoughts further about ? because i think he does feel that he has more to say to welsh government to help in this area . kirsty williams am: firstly , can i say that i have never described the programme as a failure ? i would understand , as someone who has put so much personal investment into the brand of schools challenges , that he would not want anybody to characterise that particular approach to school improvement as a failure . and i want to be absolutely clear that i have never described the programme as a failure , and i want to reassure mr ainscow of that . as i 've said , gosh , my goodness me , if you saw my e-mail inbox and you saw the letters that come in , people are never shy in coming forward to give me advice on what i need to do , what i need to do next , what i 'm doing right , what i 'm doing wrong , and , you know , our doors are always open to listen to people who have interesting things to say about how we can deliver our educational mission . so , people are n't slow in coming forward , i can assure you , with advice . lynne neagle am: julie . julie morgan am: just very quickly . i 'm sure the minister is aware that cardiff put extra funds of its own in to continue schools challenge cymru advisers . so , obviously , they appreciated the value of the scheme , but it does query whether it should have gone on longer . kirsty williams am: julie , i think , to be fair , there are some people who think the scheme was absolutely fantastic . i 've had feedback from people who did n't think the scheme was helpful at all—in fact , they felt it was a hindrance . i 'm very much of the view that the scheme worked really well for some schools in some areas and had less impact in some areas . there is a mixed picture . what 's important to me is that we understand what it was that led those schools to make those big changes , how we can—like mark talked about , the expertise—how we can keep that expertise in the system , and how we can apply the lessons to all schools . lynne neagle am: the next questions , and the final questions , are from john . so , we 're going to need succinct questions and succinct answers . john griffiths am: some questions on regional consortia , cabinet secretary , and , first of all , the role that you believe they should play and how schools use pdg . kirsty williams am: well , it 's an absolute— . it 's one of the things that i have been very clear to the regional consortia that i expect their challenge and support advisers to be asking schools about . so , one of the conversations that they need to have when they are in schools is exploring , with that school , how they are using their pdg , and how they 're demonstrating an impact for those resources . so , it 's a fundamental role for the challenge and support advisers in the regional consortia in their school improvement work . it 's crucial . john griffiths am: that sort of brings to mind some of the research that 's been done on the role of the challenge advisers , cabinet secretary , which suggested that they 're not actually challenging schools in that way , and that there 's very little evidence of schools changing their decisions on the use of pdg as a result of any challenge from those challenge advisers . so , how would you respond to those findings ? kirsty williams am: well , as i said , in my scrutiny of the role and success of our regional consortia , i specifically asked them about free-school-meal performance and the use of pdg within their particular region . i think there is increasing evidence to suggest that good use is being made of that resource , and i think that is being fed back into us . estyn tell us that it 's one of the areas of school expenditure that is closely linked to research and an evidence base . but , clearly , there is more to do , and that 's why we have appointed the new regional advisers for pdg going forward , because we think there can be improvements in how this agenda can be supported at a regional level . john griffiths am: okay . so , you would recognise the findings from that research . kirsty williams am: yes . there 's always more that we can do , and we are strengthening that role by the appointment of the new regional pdg advisers , so that individual school challenge advisers know what they should be looking for , know what they should be doing , and there is a regional approach to good practice . john griffiths am: okay . could you tell the committee , cabinet secretary , how effective you believe the relationship was between the schools challenge cymru programme and the regional consortia 's school improvement functions , and to what extent it varied by region ? kirsty williams am: i think it 's fair to say that , on occasion , i have received feedback that there was a conflict between what was going on at an individual school under the school improvement programme and whether , then , they welcomed support from the regional consortia as part of that . so , in some cases , if we 're being absolutely honest , there could sometimes be tensions between the two , but in most cases , the relationship was very , very positive and there was continuous feedback between the work going on in the schools under the programme and the regional consortia challenge advisers . but i 'm going to be blunt and honest with people—in some cases , it has been reported to me—it 's only anecdotal evidence ; i have n't got hard and fast evidence—that there sometimes was a conflict : 'we 're a school challenge school so we do n't need to participate or listen to any advice that 's coming from the regional consortia . ' or , a local education authority said to me , 'we felt that we could n't get involved in that school anymore because it was part of a different programme . ' those were isolated incidents , and , as i said , it 's only anecdotal feedback . in most cases , the relationship was a very positive one . steve davies: just very quickly , i think that , across the board , it was more complex in the beginning , getting— [ inaudible. ] . but when the programme itself recognised that they needed to work with the regions , and the regions needed to work with them—and i think mel ainscow in his evidence referred to this—it strengthened after some early challenges . i think mel ainscow was working in a number of regions—i ca n't remember which ones—so he 's established relationships— [ interruption . ] sorry ? kirsty williams am: central south . steve davies: central south . he has already been working in that , so i think it possibly had a stronger springboard in terms of the early working . kirsty williams am: because he already had relationships that he had already developed in that particular region . as always , with many of these things , it 's about individuals and relationships . john griffiths am: okay . finally from me , cabinet secretary : in 2015-16 , estyn reported on regional consortia not sufficiently focusing on particular groups of pupils and tracking their outcomes—for example , vulnerable pupils . i just wonder what you are able to tell us in terms of to what extent there has been necessary progress since 2015-16 . kirsty williams am: okay . well , i think it 's important to recognise that all four consortia underwent monitoring visits in the autumn of last year , of 2017 , which were n't reflected in the estyn annual report for 2015-16. estyn , through these 2017 inspections , have said that three out of the four regional consortia are making strong progress in their particular work , and we are continuing , as welsh government , to work with the other regional consortia to address the findings of the estyn report . john griffiths am: and that would include these particular issues . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . the committee probably has n't had an opportunity to see , but , only this morning , estyn has released a report on more able and talented , and has positive things to say in the field of more able and talented , which was being asked about earlier by members—you know , evidence of improved working and support in that particular arena . but , again , we need to ensure a consistency across all the regions , and that the findings of estyn 's most recent reports into regional performance are followed through . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . as we 've got a couple of minutes left , if i can just jump back to the issue of practical uses of the pdg—because it 's the only thing we have n't really covered and it would be good to get on the record—can i ask to what extent you 'd like to see the pdg used to track the progress of eligible pupils ? and the committee 's heard that there are several different tracking systems and tools used by schools . to what extent is that an issue to do with what the welsh government is promoting ? or is it down to consortia or individual schools ? and do you think there needs to be a more centralised push on how the tracking is undertaken ? kirsty williams am: firstly , can i say it 's absolutely crucial that we track performance , absolutely crucial ? that 's the bedrock . we do n't dictate to individual schools the nature of the system that they should employ in their school . there are a number of different programmes that allow schools to do this , but we are absolutely clear , and best practice and evidence shows us , that individual pupil tracking is key and crucial . and , as i said in the beginning , where we were n't tracking pupils at all , initial investment in pdg was used to establish these systems within schools . again , one of the outcomes from the schools challenge review , and one of the lessons learnt , was , again , the importance of individual tracking of pupils throughout their school career . but we do n't dictate a single system . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . kirsty williams am: but the principle is a really important one . lynne neagle am: okay , and you do n't think there 's more scope to look at what the best system is that can be recommended to schools . kirsty williams am: that 's not something we 're actively looking at . i am actively looking at developing a welsh toolkit around good practice , evidence base and research . at the moment we use the sutton trust toolkit , which is fine and excellent , but we are having active discussions about whether we 're in a position , now , to look at developing a suite of a welsh toolkit to support this agenda , and that 's under active consideration . lynne neagle am: okay . well , we 've reached the end of our session . can i thank the cabinet secretary and the officials for attending and for answering such a wide range of questions ? as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you again for coming . kirsty williams am: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: thank you . okay . item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the minister for children and social care on families first funding . paper to note 2 is a letter from the cabinet secretary for education , updating us on the supply teacher issue . paper to note 3—another letter from the cabinet secretary for education , providing further information following our meeting on 15 february . paper to note 4 is a letter from the wjec on availability of textbooks . paper to note 5—a letter from qualifications wales , also on availability of textbooks . and paper to note 6 is a letter from the cabinet secretary for education to the children 's commissioner for wales , following up on the dialogue that they 've been having about our inquiry . are members happy to note those ? thank you . item 4 , then , is for me to propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

they are looking at systems and processes , the placement of comprehensive systems of tracking and processes within the school . they are looking at the teacher quality — how can they ensure that we have got consistent strategies in place to drive up pedagogy and teacher quality in the classroom . and also , collaborative activity . one of the key themes of the national mission is a self-improving system , so collaborative working is necessary where schools are looking outside of each other , learning from best practice from other schools .

what is the progressing condition of the schools challenge cymru ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to this morning 's children , young people and education committee . we 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members who are present if they wish to declare any interests ? okay , thank you . item 2 this morning is our final evidence session for our inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams am , cabinet secretary for education ; steve davies , director of the education directorate ; and ruth conway , deputy director , support for learners division . welcome to all of you , and thank you for your attendance and also for the paper that you 've provided in advance . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions , and the first questions are from llyr gruffydd . llyr gruffydd am: bore da . i just want to start by asking some questions around the targeting of the pupil development grant because , clearly , we 've had a lot of evidence around this apparent blurring of eligibility to an extent . i 'm just wondering how comfortable you are that the money is being targeted appropriately because , clearly , it 's being targeted more widely than just those eligible for free school meals , from some of the evidence we 've had , but also that it seems to be predominantly focused on low-attaining frees—pupils who are eligible for free school meals . kirsty williams am: thank you , llyr . i think it 's important to be absolutely clear that when it comes to individual interventions , those individual interventions should only be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals . but in some cases , schools may use their pdg funding to provide a universal intervention , but we would want to—in challenge advisers ' discussions in schools—we 'd want to have evidence that that universal intervention would have a disproportionate effect on the outcomes for children on free school meals . so , for instance , if i give you an example in your own region , llyr : at brynteg county primary school in wrexham , if you look at that primary school in wrexham , their results for free-school-meal children at the end of their primary school period in school are equivalent to their non-free-school-meal counterparts . so , there is no differentiation in those results . one of the things that they 've used their pdg for is to really focus on the concept of growth mindset in school . so , that 's a universal thing that they 've trained all the teachers in , but what we know is that that has a disproportionate effect on those children who are on free school meals . so , if you 're familiar with the concept of a growth mindset , it 's about really challenging learners to think that , ' i can do things . if sometimes i fail , i pick myself up , i 'm more resilient . ' now , that has been , as i said , trained to all the teachers in the school—it 's an ethos for the whole school—but we have seen that the impact on the free-school-meal children has been even greater , and now they 're at the same level . so , that 's the important distinction . individual intervention per child has to be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals , but sometimes a school will employ a whole-school approach to train their staff , for instance , and that , then , has to demonstrate it has a disproportionate effect on free school meals . so , growth mindset ; it may be attachment disorder training for staff , for instance , where we know it 's of benefit to everybody , but will have particular benefits for that cohort of students . with regard to more able and talented , you know , llyr , that this is an area of concern for me , generally , within the welsh education system ; that we 've not been particularly good at identifying , supporting and driving attainment for those children . i 'm absolutely clear that pdg needs to be used for those children who are eligible to drive potential , whatever the potential of that child is , including more able and talented . and again , i 'll give you an example that has been seen as good practice in pembrokeshire : a window on the world bus , again paid for by schools . i do n't know if you 're aware of it . llyr gruffydd am: we 've heard about that . kirsty williams am: oh , you 've heard about it ; well , it 's a really good example the window on the world . and , again , that 's very much targeted at raising aspirations and giving children who are more able and talented , who are eligible for pdg , those experiences , and to really push them . so , yes , i 'm absolutely clear that pdg should n't just be seen to be getting individuals to the average . for those children who are more able and talented , it should be used to support them— llyr gruffydd am: and we all share those aspirations , i 'm sure , and you pointed to examples of good practice , but of course , it 's not universal , is it , so what i 'm asking is : do you think that the guidance is sufficient as it is ? do you think that there 's a great enough awareness of how the pdg should be used at the coalface ? and also , are you confident that consortia and others have the measures in place to be able to demonstrate that it is being used properly ? kirsty williams am: i think , if we look at what estyn has said about pdg , it does actually recognise that the pdg is being used to push more able and talented children , but as always with the system , llyr , it 's whether we can be sure that that is strategic and that it 's happening across all of our schools . so , you're— llyr gruffydd am: but not just in relation to more able and talented , i 'm referring to the eligibility and the targeting . kirsty williams am: oh , the eligibility . you 'll be aware that , on the advice of sir alasdair , we have employed and appointed new pdg regional advisers , and i think their role is going to be absolutely crucial in spreading that good practice across the region , whether that 's use of pdg for more able and talented , or ensuring that pdg is used in the appropriate way . so , that 's there to provide strategic overall advice . and obviously , we have been very clear with regional challenge advisers , in the relationship and the conversations they 're having with individual schools , that they 're really challenging their schools about the use of pdg , not just in terms of targeting , but the programmes , what the money is being spent on , whether there is an evidence base for that and whether we are clear on impact . so , i think the new regional advisers are going to be crucial in enabling us to ensure more consistent practice across the regions . llyr gruffydd am: so , are you content that eligibility for free school meals is the best measure , really , of identifying which pupils to target ? kirsty williams am: llyr , in the absence of anything better . i 'll be the first person to say that maybe it 's not as absolutely focused , but in the absence of anything different to identify a proxy for need , i think it 's probably the best that we 've got at present . and we will continue to have discussions with local government about whether there are different ways . we have to be mindful . some of the policy levers in this area are out of my hands , so if we look at the roll-out of universal credit , for instance , we 've got officials working very hard at the moment to try and understand what universal credit is going to mean and where we are going to be able to identify relative need , going forward . we have n't had any additional resource as a result of this , but we 're very mindful that , potentially , this has an impact , going forward . and , officials are working all of the time , i must say , in conjunction with the department in england , to understand their thinking in this area so that we are in a position to make some decisions about what a notional eligibility for free school meals will look like going forward , but before i make any decisions , i want to assure everybody that there will be a full public consultation on that . llyr gruffydd am: okay . finally for now , on this issue of once a year , in january , if you 're eligible for free school meals , then you 're in that group for that year . we 've had some quite strong evidence about how difficult that makes longer term planning for a number of schools and we 've also been pointed in the direction of what 's happened in england with the ever 6 , and i 'm just wondering whether you 're giving any thought to maybe changing that a little bit . kirsty williams am: well , we 're certainly giving thought to flexibility . in conversations with alasdair , who is our independent adviser on this agenda , and individual schools , we 're actively giving thought to greater flexibility and maybe longer term projections , so that schools know , for a number of years ahead , what their allocation will be . there are advantages to that system , because you could give that flexibility , you could give that long-term approach , but then , how do you make that responsive if a school suddenly has more children ? we do know that , actually , the number of free-school-meal pupils is dropping . but there can be changes , you know , regional working in areas of north wales in tourism , or maybe in other areas at christmas time , parents are able to get a period of work . so , how can we create a more flexible system ? we 're actively looking at that at the moment . i would n't use it as an ever 6 concept , but as an 'ever 2 ' concept . we have looked at ever 6 , and i 'm going to be absolutely blunt with you : to introduce an ever 6 concept for wales would mean in the region of identifying an additional £40 million . i 'm going to be absolutely straight and blunt with you : we 're not in a position at the moment to be able to identify an additional £40 million to introduce an ever 6. but issues around flexibility , certainly , are actively under consideration . in fact , we 'll be having a discussion later on today about decisions , going forward , for the next two years . llyr gruffydd am: thank you . lynne neagle am: darren on this . darren millar am: it 's just a very brief point in response to the £40 million price ticket that you just put on that . that 's , of course , assuming that you maintain the current level of pdg , yes ? so , if you reduced the level of pdg slightly , but made it available to more individuals , if you like , via allocating it in a different way , then that £40 million price ticket would n't be there , would it ? kirsty williams am: i was asked a question about had i ever considered an ever 6. we have looked at that , we 've priced that up . i have to make decisions in the envelope of resources that are available to me . we could , indeed , change the way in which we allocate pdg money , but we have to do it within the envelope that is available to me , over £90 million . that 's a significant level of investment , but , of course , as always , darren , we could cut the amount per pupil , but that might have quite challenging swings in allocations . what we have done—because what i am clear on is that there was evidence to suggest that in the secondary sector , a great deal of pdg was being focused on years 10 and 11 , especially year 11 , in catch-up provision , and you 'll be aware , because we 've said this in evidence to the committee in the papers , we 've set a challenge to secondary schools to say , 'actually , the majority of your pdg allocation has to be used in key stage 3 . ' now , we have to balance the needs , the moral hazard of turning round to children in years 10 and 11 and saying , 'we're not going to provide catch-up opportunities for you , ' because , clearly , those children need that support . but the evidence and the advice that we 're receiving is : actually , strong focus on early years , primary and key stage 3 , if we get that right , should negate the need for spending money on catch-up at years 10 and 11. that 's why we , in our advice to local authorities and schools , say that we want to see evidence that they 're spending this money earlier on in a child 's career , rather than just a scramble at year 11 to say , 'right , we 've got to get you through your exams . ' darren millar am: okay , but have you actively considered , then , reducing the level you have ? kirsty williams am: we've— ruth conway: sorry—i was just going to say that one of the things is looking at the scope of the definition , and i think it 's about being more flexible with the definition , rather than reducing the amount per head . darren millar am: okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you . if we can go on , then , to talk about some of the practical uses of the pdg , you write in your written paper that 'the majority of schools are making well thought out and appropriate decisions ' on how to use it . but estyn reported that only two thirds of primary and secondary schools make effective use of the pdg . given that we 've had it now for six years , would you not have expected there to be a higher level of schools actually making good use of that funding ? kirsty williams am: well , to flip it on its head , the vast majority of schools , as identified by estyn , are using this money to good effect . so , that 's the way i like to see it—that the vast majority of schools are doing well . what estyn has also indicated is the intrinsic link here to leadership within individual schools , and as you 'll be aware , leadership , improving capacity in leadership and developing leadership talent in the welsh education system is a key priority for me in our national mission . of course , that 's being developed in a different work stream . i think what 's fair to say is that the use of pdg is evolving over time . i think we are seeing , increasingly , more and more schools understanding how best to deploy that money for best effect for students . so , if we 're honest , when pdg first started , i think , in some schools it was spent on investing in tracking of children , because they 'd never thought about tracking these children , they did n't have systems in place to look at the performance of these children , and to have a system in place . so we 've moved now from spending money on the infrastructure around support for fsm children into actual inputs in terms of teaching and learning . we 're also seeing from estyn that , actually , in terms of money following the evidence of what we know works , estyn says that pdg is probably the best example of schools following tried and tested and evidence-based interventions to deploy the money . but clearly we want all of this money to be deployed as well as it can be , and again we come back to the decision i 've made to appoint regional pdg advisers so that we can get that better consistency of approach . we are , in the discussions that i have with the regional consortia about how they challenge individual schools on usage , looking for very clear evidence of schools using the sutton trust toolkit , and we could have a discussion about whether that 's the right thing , because that 's on my mind too . but we want to see schools demonstrating their evidence base , and if they 're not , if a school is n't doing that , okay , so demonstrate to us why you 've made those decisions and , crucially , what are you doing as the school to judge whether that decision is actually making a difference for your individual pupils . so , if you 're moving away from tried and tested interventions , what we know works , if you 're doing something different with your money , okay , you need to justify that and you need to explain how you 're going to demonstrate impact . but i think what we 're seeing is increasing good practice in this area as the pdg develops and as our understanding of our school-to-school working in our self-improving school system also develops . i think we 're seeing better usage of the money year on year . lynne neagle am: thank you . llyr on this . llyr gruffydd am: you mentioned some schools will be moving from the tried-and-tested interventions , really , and i 'm just wondering to what extent that evolution of use of pdg is being driven by cuts to core funding . kirsty williams am: no , i do n't think it 's being driven by cuts to core funding . i think there has been— . one of the biggest impacts of pdg has not been—well , i suppose it is the money in itself , because the money has concentrated the minds , has n't it ? so , one of the most important things that pdg has done is highlight the importance of this agenda within schools , and really raise this up in the thinking of leadership and senior management teams in our schools , and has driven a focus on scrutiny and accountability in the systems that are working with our schools . i think the changing use of pdg reflects the journeys that schools have been on , some of them from a very low base where this was not a priority for them , to better understanding , and as research and as intelligence grows over time in this area , both in wales and outside of wales , schools are increasingly learning to use that evidence to tailor approaches in their schools . llyr gruffydd am: so you would n't accept at all that some of this money 's being used to paper over some funding cracks from elsewhere . because the unions and some others have told us that , whether we like it or not , there is some of that going on . kirsty williams am: as i said , llyr , we 're very clear about the usage that this money can be spent on in terms of individuals or universal application within schools , and that forms an important part of the checks and balances that we have in our system . can we continue to improve , and ensure that more and more of our schools are employing best practice ? yes , we can , and as i 've said , we 've taken steps to put in place the infrastructure to support that . lynne neagle am: thank you . mark 's questions are next . mark reckless am: cabinet secretary , how would you assess the impact of pdg on attendance and hopefully subsequent engagement with education from children who have free school meals ? kirsty williams am: i think what 's important to note is that , as estyn have themselves said , over the period of the last inspection report , we have seen improvements in attendance , but i do think we need to , again , look at how pdg can support this particular agenda . and as always in the welsh education system , there are some excellent examples of how schools use the money to address this . ysgol y preseli in pembrokeshire is a very good example of how they 've deployed their money . forgive me ; i ca n't off the top of my head remember the name of the primary school i visited , again in north wales , where the school has proactively used this money , and they actually send teaching assistants out of school in the morning before the start of the school day , and they actually have a walking bus . they call at homes for children , and they walk the children to the breakfast club . so , they 're proactively going out into the community and making sure that those children are in the classrooms , because the teacher said , 'we recognised we had a problem with attendance . we tried a variety of means of improving that , but in the end we have taken this quite bold step—we actually send the staff out and they create that walking bus , and they walk the children into school ' . they say that they know that , for some of those children , because of the difficult circumstances they and their families are living in , they probably would n't be in school if it was n't for that proactive approach . so , we 're looking again at what more we can do to support this particular agenda in terms of improving attendance , because although , again , there are examples of good practice , there is still a gap between the attendance of free-school-meal pupils and non-free-school-meal pupils . and , of course , we can have the best curriculum in the world with really high-quality teaching , but unless the children are in the classes then we 're not going to make the difference for them . whilst that differential exists , then it 's going to be hard to close the attainment gap for those children . mark reckless am: i was actually quite shocked just reading in advance of this meeting that the proportion attending 95 per cent or more , who have pretty full attendance , was only 35 per cent for free-school-meal children at level 4 , compared to 60 per cent for non-free-school-meal pupils . it still is an extraordinary difference . my colleague here showed me , i think , last week , a graph showing the link between attendance and attainment , in particular . when people were absent , a lot of the— . as i 'm sure you 're aware , there 's a huge connection . what more can pdg do to deal with it ? in the example you give i can see how a school with an awful lot of free-school-meal children could do that , but a lot of the free-school-meal children are actually in schools that do n't have that high a proportion of free school meals , where it would be much more challenging to bring in that type of initiative . kirsty williams am: yes , indeed , and i think it gets more challenging the older the children get . i think it 's more difficult to find interventions that are successful higher up , so key stage 4. so , you can do a walking bus with little ones , ca n't you , but i do n't suppose your average 15 or 16-year-old is going to take very kindly to that . so , you do need a different approach to that . but again , we see in ysgol y preseli the employment of staff to directly work with families of older children to reinforce the messages around , as you quite rightly say , the linkage between attendance and attainment , and really work with individual families to understand the barriers to attendance : what 's going on in the family that is preventing that child from going to school , and what more can the school do to address those situations . but you 're absolutely right ; there is more that we need to do to address this particular agenda of attainment . i do n't know if there 's anything extra you wanted to add , steve . steve davies: there is also another very good example—and i take what you say about where there are small numbers—but in our secondary schools where there are significant numbers , they 're investing pdg in resources like a school nurse and a school counsellor , not just to work with the children but link to other agencies on whom the children and the families are dependent to support them in terms of working with schools . so , it 's something , particularly in our most challenging areas , where it can not just be delivered within the school . so , good use of that resource is being made to employ people to support them in those wider areas . mark reckless am: thank you . to what extent is pdg also used to seek to reduce the higher rates of exclusion for children entitled to free school meals ? kirsty williams am: so , if we looked at permanent exclusions , there is n't a differential , but if we look at temporary exclusions , there we see there is a disproportionate number of children on free school meals that are subject to those exclusions . again , i think what schools employing best practice understand is that you need a multi-agency approach to supporting that particular child . some of those exclusions can be as a result of the need to address other issues going on in a child 's life . so , this is where we come back to the committee 's work , for instance , on mental health and support for children , support for behaviour in school . so , again , it 's a multi-agency approach that i think we need , and , in our good schools , our really , really good schools , there 's a recognition of that need to have a whole team around a child to support that child in education . with eotas , we made some changes last year regarding pdg for eotas . so , for those children who do find themselves in education other than at school , we are providing additional support that previously was not available . mark reckless am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . we 're going to move on now to talk about the impact of pdg on attainment . hefin david has got some questions . hefin david am: it appears that the attainment gap at 2017 has actually widened , in spite of pdg levels . is that correct ? kirsty williams am: yes . so , if you look at it—with the usual caveats about whether you can make direct comparisons on level 2 plus between the exams the year before and the exams that we had last summer—on the face of it , the gap has increased . i think what 's important to recognise , hefin , is a direction of travel . i 'm sure we all want to , because i want to , have a discussion about why children on free school meals were less resilient in the exam system last year . but , if we look at the period that we have been employing pdg , over that period , we have seen a narrowing of the gap . i think what 's quite stark , if we think about it— . so , if we look at where we started from : in 2009 , one in five children on free school meals got level 2 plus—one in five—by 2016 , we had got that down to one in three . obviously , there 's still a way to go , but , sir alasdair , who knows about these things , says that that is a significant improvement . last year , we got some challenges . we need to understand why that happened , but i do think it's— hefin david am: why , do you think ? kirsty williams am: why , do i think ? what i do think is there is no one answer . there is no one answer to this . i think we could look at and we can have discussions around the move from btec to science gcses . i think we have supplied figures to the committee about the significant change in the number of children on free school meals who were n't doing a single science gcse and are now doing science gcses . we can look at the unintended consequences of literature . again , we 've supplied figures . where children have done language and literature , whether that be through the medium of english or through the medium of welsh , there is more resilience . so , it 's that exposure to literacy in all its forms that i think could potentially make a difference . so , i think there 's no one answer to why free-school-meal children were not so resilient last year . we continue to have discussions with qualifications wales to get a better understanding of this . at my next ministerial policy board , in may , we 'll be doing a deep dive into this particular subject . hefin david am: so , to what extent would exam boards be responsible for lack of grade stability ? kirsty williams am: it could be one of the contributory factors . what i think is important is that there is no one , single reason why there seems to be less resilience in this cohort of children . hefin david am: will you be speaking to the exam boards about this and raising concerns ? kirsty williams am: i have written to qualifications wales , we 've had discussions about it , but i 've asked them to formally submit evidence ahead of my policy board for may , where , as i said , we will be doing a formal , deep-dive discussion across the department about these issues . but , again , hefin , what we 've got to be clear on is—while we look at overall factors , you know , our overall national statistic—we did see some schools last year whose fsm performance was better than it had been the year before . so , what was it in those schools that enabled those children to do really well , whereas , in other schools , the performance was different ? even in individual cities , you can see a huge variety of performance . so , take cardiff and swansea , our two biggest cities . you 've got schools in those cities with comparative levels of free school meals . so , you could have really high-performing schools with a very small number of the cohort on free school meals . the difference between those performances in a single city—so , that 's the same local education authority and the same regional consortium—you can see a massive change . there 's one school i can talk to : their free-school-meal performance is 88 per cent . a similar school in the same city with the same proportion of children on free school meals , their performance is down in the 20 per cents . so , i think what 's important is that we ca n't draw broad-brush conclusions . for me , the challenge is to go into individual schools and understand what was happening in that particular school that ensured that their children did really well . we 've got one school in swansea , their fsm performance at gcse level 2 outperforms non-fsm pupils . hefin david am: but we still need to rely on the trends from a distance . if we take your argument that 2017 was an unusual year and the trends up to 2016 were positive , in a few years ' time , when we will be looking back in two years ' time , how are we going to measure this progress , say , in 2019 ? what are we likely to see and what methods are you going to use to measure progress that way ? kirsty williams am: well , you 'll be aware that we are moving away from level 2 plus as a performance measure anyway because of the— hefin david am: so , what performance measures will you use ? kirsty williams am: so , for the lack of sophistication around the level 2 plus , and for the unintended behaviours that that particular performance measure has driven within our schools . i 'll be making a statement shortly to the assembly around a new performance measure for schools . we were , at our most recent secondary heads conference , working with schools to develop that . what 's important to me is that we have a more sophisticated model that looks at school performance for all children . what level 2 plus does is narrow , very much , the focus of schools on an individual part of the cohort , usually the c/d borderline , which is why then we have problems with the number of students getting a b grade or above . we have marked success in our schools by saying to schools that a c is good enough . well , if a child gets a c but came to you in year 7 and they were destined to get an e , yes , indeed , a c is a success , because you 've moved that child on ; but , if that child came to you destined to get an a * and gets a c , then we have n't done a good job by that particular child . so , we need a performance measure that is much more sophisticated , looks at each individual child , tracks that progress , and measures the value added by that school in performance . hefin david am: last question : therefore , should we have confidence in the data up to 2016 ? is there a lack of confidence in that data ? kirsty williams am: no , it 's not a lack of confidence in the data . the data is the data . what i 'm saying is , using that as a performance measure and an accountability measure within our school system may have been right for the time . i think it is now right to have a different way of measuring success in schools . i think that particular set of performance measures has driven certain behaviours—not because ministers wanted that to happen , but as an unintended consequence . i think we can work together with our school system , learning the lessons of international best practice , to develop much more sophisticated accountability and performance measures for individual schools , and , i should say , for the government . so , you will be aware of my intention to issue the first national report card on government performance later on this year . so , this is not about trying to avoid scrutiny . it 's about trying to develop a more sophisticated way , which is in line with our national mission , where every child 's education is valued , and where the impact of the school can be tracked more effectively . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . can i just ask , cabinet secretary , are you still holding on to your target of 37 per cent of free-school-meal pupils achieving the level 2 threshold ? kirsty williams am: well , we 're moving away from the level 2 threshold . so , that 's the first thing to say . so , we will want to develop a new suite , in line with our new accountability measures , as we go forward . so , we will be absolutely continuing to track and evaluate the performance of free-school-meal pupils . when we announce our new accountability measures , i will be in a position to address how we 'll measure the government's performance , and national performance , going forward . but , given the fact that we 're moving away from level 2 plus , then we will need a different set of performance indicators . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the next questions are on looked-after children and adopted children , and i 've got questions from michelle then mark . michelle brown am: thank you . good morning— mark reckless am: i was to come in first , i think . i was about to ask about icf consulting . lynne neagle am: go on then . mark reckless am: i think my questions are first , but , michelle , please do correct me if you were planning to come in before . the pdg for looked-after children does n't quite seem to have the degree of visibility as the pdg for the free-school-meals . i think we had the mori/wiserd survey—only 15 per cent of primary schools and 23 per cent of secondary schools were aware that pdg was targeted at looked-after children . i just wonder—can you clarify on the record here what is the role of schools with pdg for looked-after children as compared to the regional consortia in this field ? kirsty williams am: okay . i think it is absolutely fair to say that most awareness around pdg is around free school meals . there is less awareness around the availability of pdg to support looked-after children . i think that 's probably in the nature of the cohort , so , there are more children subject to free school meals than are subject to being looked after . so , i think that 's part of the explanation . a decision was taken in 2015 to regionalise pdg for looked-after children . my understanding was that the thinking behind that at the time was around a greater strategic deployment of that resource and to try and drive a greater impact than how it was being used previously . so , looked-after pdg is held at a regional level . we have looked-after children pdg co-ordinators—they 're in their second year this year—to look at a regional deployment of that resource . and that resource can be done in a variety of ways , through individual allocation to a school to support an individual child , through to capacity building for the whole system . so , for instance , if i give you an example , in carmarthenshire , there 's been a big emphasis on attachment disorder and training teachers with regard to the impact of attachment disorder . carmarthenshire happens to be one of those local authorities that does quite well in terms of attainment for looked-after children . but , clearly , i have—not concerns . 'concerns ' is n't the right word . but i have asked officials to give greater scrutiny to how that resource has been used in the last year . steve , on my behalf , wrote out to the system , setting out our expectations , but also advising them of the fact we will be asking very detailed questions of accountability for that money . so , what has that money been used on and how can you account for the effect ? but , steve , maybe you can give some greater detail . steve davies: i think the challenge that— . one of the rationales for shifting—not that all the money stays in the region , but having a regional strategic support—was that , historically , the money was going directly with that child to the school . given the quite often rapid turnover of children in schools—the very nature of looked-after children is they do sometimes move through foster parents—historically , what happened , the money lands in the school , because , at that time in the year , when it 's measured , the school gets the money and can spend it on some additional support for staff , but quite often that child moves on to another school and the money does n't transfer . some schools will go through quite a number of years without having a looked-after child and will not think strategically , 'how do i need to support them ? ' so , that was the rationale of the shift . in terms of the implementation of the regional allocation , as of this financial year finishing , we are going into local authorities and regions to evaluate where they 've located the resource , what the impact of that resource has been , so that is reinforced and shared more widely . kirsty williams am: and then , to reassure , it 's not just internally that we 're looking at this . we have a contract with an external agency to do an evaluation— mark reckless am: that 's icf consulting . kirsty williams am: yes . yes , so that was done in the autumn of last year , because , as i said , we had concerns about whether this was really having the effect that was intended . so , my expectation is that we will be in a position to receive that report later on this spring , and of course it would be my intention that that report would be made public for people to have a look at what— mark reckless am: that was commissioned last autumn— kirsty williams am: yes , in november 2017 . mark reckless am: november 2017 . kirsty williams am: so , i 'm hoping to have that published before the summer recess . i 'm very reluctant to say months ; i 've learnt not to say months , because they move . lynne neagle am: i 'm going to go to michelle now , mark , because— mark reckless am: sure . i will come back in if i have anything further to ask here after michelle . lynne neagle am: —both of you asked for these questions , and that 's what the pre-meeting is for . mark reckless am: michelle , i defer to you . lynne neagle am: michelle . michelle brown am: okay , thank you . would you be open , cabinet secretary , to the idea of adjusting the eligibility of the pdg so that pupils who have been looked after or adopted at any point within a previous given period of time would attract the pdg , rather than only if they 're looked-after on a one-off date ? kirsty williams am: as i said earlier , in questions from , i think it was , llyr , who was talking about concepts of concepts of ever 6 , we are constantly looking at how we can get that balance between focus and flexibility for this resource . llyr opened with the question of , 'how can you absolutely ensure that these children are getting the money ? ' , but then there 's also a tension about how can you create some flexibility around the school 's usage of the grant . so , we will look at that . i think there is the issue of where a school would know of a child that was looked after . issues around adoption are slightly more sensitive , because we could n't force a family to tell a school that their child was an adopted child . so , a family may be very open and very keen to explain that to a school , but we ca n't necessarily track as closely children who have been adopted , especially if that adoption happens before the child goes to school . we ca n't be in a position of forcing families to disclose this information if they do n't want to , but we certainly can , as i say , look to strengthen our monitoring arrangements around pdg support for looked-after children and the impact that that 's having . i just think we need to be a bit mindful of people 's privacy in some instances . if they do n't want to divulge that , it would n't be my job to tell a family , 'you have to let us know if your child is adopted . ' lynne neagle am: michelle . michelle brown am: fair enough ; thank you for that answer . the eas consortium 's approach to using the looked-after and adopted pdg is to use it as part of a broader approach targeted at vulnerable learners in general . what are your views on that approach ? kirsty williams am: i 'm a great believer in if we can get it right for our most vulnerable learners , we 'll be getting it right for all of our learners . i gave the example earlier , for instance , of attachment disorder , and , chair , you will know that i have had conversations . one of the emerging themes for me , as i go around visiting schools , is the impact and the growing awareness and the growing numbers of children who have attachment disorder , and how schools are best able to respond to that in their children . so , for instance , as i said about carmarthenshire , there 's been a huge effort to address that in the school sector in carmarthenshire . now , that has a disproportionate benefit for those children , because you 're more likely to see attachment disorder in children who are care experienced , because of the nature of the lives that those children have lived , but that does n't necessarily mean that attachment disorder is exclusively found in those children that are looked after . it can be found in other families as well . so , that vulnerable learner , regardless of their background , will benefit from having teachers who are better trained , understanding and have intervention strategies in place to be able to address that need . steve davies: i think it 's also important to add that this is not one region 's approach ; this is across four regions , so the others— . for example , erw have run a significant programme looking at the impact of adverse childhood experiences on pupils , which has enabled teachers to detect some of the impact of some of those and then considers some of the work they need to do within the school but also with other agencies . so , it is something that's applied consistently across the four regions . kirsty williams am: i was in pil primary school recently where they use their pdg , both fsm pdg , and no doubt an element of pdg for looked-after , for nurture groups . so , for those children who really , really find it very difficult to be in the main classroom , they can have that nurture group experience to address issues around emotional behaviour , feelings , and it gets them in a position where they are able then to join the main classroom because issues around behaviour have been addressed and they 're in a better position to learn . so , again , this is an example of how vulnerable learners in the wider sense can benefit . lynne neagle am: okay . mark , did you have anything you wanted to ask ? mark reckless am: yes . can i follow up on tracking adopted children ? i entirely understand that you ca n't force parents to disclose that their child is adopted . however , my understanding was that , in england , there was a dataset with social services that was shared with schools in a way that i 'm not clear is happening in wales and how , if at all , that links to the pupil level annual school census data . perhaps sort of linked to that , is n't there an argument for making the parents of adopted children in the schools , potentially , with adopted children more aware that adopted children who were previously looked after have this potential grant , and would they not be more willing to disclose this , at least confidentially to the school and government , if they knew there was this upside of doing so ? kirsty williams am: we 're actively looking at whether we should try and find a way of collecting this data , with the caveats that i just gave earlier . we ca n't force parents to divulge information that is a matter for them , nor would i want to . but there is an active discussion going on at the moment about whether we could create a dataset where people divulge this information and we can then track the children through . you 're absolutely right . one of the ways in which we can often encourage take-up , for instance , of free school meals , especially in those communities where there is a sense of reluctance to apply for support—even though people are entitled to it , there 's a reluctance to do it ; sometimes we see this in rural areas— . actually , appealing to the parents by saying , 'actually , this will mean more money for your child 's school budget' is a much more compelling reason why people will apply for it then saying , 'actually , it 's going to help you ' , because they do n't want to be seen being dependent , they do n't want to be seen being helped . but , if you say to them , 'actually , do you know that this means more money for your child 's school ? ' , they go , 'oh , all right then , i 'll fill in the forms now . ' so , you 're right , i think there is something that we could do to make parents understand , in the round , that this has an impact . but we are actively looking at and discussing whether we could create a dataset around adopted children and how we can do that in line with data protection and data sharing . one of the things i am concerned about in the performance of looked-after children generally is how we can , across government , work more closely together . we ca n't see the educational attainment of looked-after children just being a job of education . it 's got to be a job of social services and the health service as well . there 's got to be a joined-up approach to doing that . now , officials were at the ministerial advisory group that 's chaired by david melding on prospects for looked-after children . they were there at the group last week . david tells me that the paper was very positively received by the group . i will be sitting down with david melding to talk through what more we can do on the education side . i think there 's really an appetite between me and the minister for children to get a closer working relationship on this . we ca n't expect schools to do it on their own and alone . and there are things that we can do out there in local authorities to help improve outcomes . it 's not just about the pdg ; it is about , when social services are thinking about a placement , where does the discussion about where children are going to go to school—when does that take place ? do we talk about the placement , move a child and then think , 'oh my goodness me , what are we going to do about the schooling ? ' if you can imagine , the school could have been working really , really hard with a pupil to get them in a good place , to get them being able to access the curriculum , and then social services decide that the placement is being changed . so , we potentially lose all of that . so , a greater involvement in education and better linked-up working in local authorities will help us with this . it ca n't be just the job of the pdg . if we think we can crack this with just pdg , then we 're being delusional . it has to be a cross-government approach at a national level , and at a local government level as well , to get this right . sometimes , data protection—how can we break down some of these barriers between , you know , the school does n't need to , schools should n't see , the entire social services report ? well , maybe the school does need to see some of that background information if they 're going to have an impact for that child . so , there 's more work to do , but it can not be just the job of education on its own if we 're going to make a difference , nor can it just be the job of the pdg to make a difference for those children . lynne neagle am: thank you . julie 's got some more questions on the impact on adopted and looked-after children . julie morgan am: yes , before i go on to those , i just wanted to support , really , what mark was saying about adopted children and how important it is , i think , that the adoptive parents feel able to speak to the school and to give information . because certainly any evidence we 've had from adoptive parents , and generally knowing about what adoptive parents do feel , is that they often feel that there 's a degree of a lack of sensitivity in the school about the issues of adoption . i would certainly support some move towards ensuring that the atmosphere was open in a way that would encourage them to realise that it would be a help for the children if there was an awareness in the school . so , i just wanted to really reinforce that . kirsty williams am: yes , and that would chime with what i hear from many adoptive parents . i 'm just trying to be sensitive by saying we ca n't force people to divulge this information if they do n't want to . julie morgan am: no , but they need to be given the opportunity . kirsty williams am: yes , you 're right . we need to make sure that those parents feel that they can discuss this with school leaders and classroom teachers and explore how best those individual children can be supported , and how best we can support parents . because , again—and i 've said this a lot—after the quality of teaching , the second biggest impact on a child 's educational outcome will be parental engagement . so , being able to create an environment where adoptive parents feel very confident and able to talk about their children 's education is absolutely crucial if we 're going to get that parental engagement that we need for all of our children . julie morgan am: yes . thank you . going on to looked-after children , you say that the latest data on looked-after children 's attainment is extremely disappointing . can you expand on that and what effect the pdg has had in this result , or not had ? kirsty williams am: well , there 's no getting away from it : the way in which we currently measure outcomes for looked-after children , the results are not good enough . it 's a source of huge concern to me that we need to do better for those children . that 's why officials are engaging with the group that david melding is chairing , to make sure that education is integral to that group and it 's not lost sight of . there 's a discussion to be had about the cohort , whether it 's right and correct to compare looked-after children to the main cohort , or whether these statistics are useful in any way . sometimes as well—this is not to make an excuse because , as i 've said in my paper , it 's extremely disappointing , but sometimes it can be really difficult . because the cohort sometimes can be very , very small , it can swing the statistics to look perhaps more dramatic . julie morgan am: i think , generally , when you look at how looked-after children do— kirsty williams am: it 's not good . julie morgan am: —in a much wider evaluation , they 're not doing well , are they ? kirsty williams am: they 're not doing well . so , that 's why we 've got the review , the independent review , into the impact of the pdg in this area . this is why steve is doing the work that he is doing with the regional consortia because , clearly , at the moment , we are not doing what we need to do for that particular cohort of children . i would not make any bones about that at all . steve davies: i think we will not move away from the fact that these children need good gcses to gain employment , so we 'll continue to measure that . i think we need to look at more nuanced evaluations of the data at a lower level . so , for example , there were significant improvements in terms of pdg pupils who got three and four good gcses but did n't get past the threshold . that 's not to cover anything that is not working in terms of improvement , but we will look at the full range and still hold on to the fact that we have to look at a measure that relates to the likelihood of these children going on to further education and training . julie morgan am: and then just one more question about the exclusion rates amongst looked-after children . they are , i understand , over six times more likely to be given a fixed-term exclusion . so , is there any way of trying to address this ? is the pdg used for anything to do with exclusions ? kirsty williams am: we can look at exclusions . we also have to read across about how the whole system works , not just the pdg element of the system . so , we know , for example , that 66 per cent of looked-after learners have some additional learning need , so we ca n't just look at it in terms of this particular source of funding ; we have to look at it at a wider level of support . so , given that the majority of those children will have an aln , how can we make sure that our new aln legislation and our new aln regime meets the needs of these children ? so , i think what we 're looking at , again , is to say that it ca n't be just the job of the pdg . that 's there as an additional level of support , but actually , we 've got to get our aln right . unless we get our aln right , lots and lots of these children are not going to get the support that they need day in , day out via that system . we do know that sometimes , if we 're not addressing aln , then we 're not addressing behaviour issues that then potentially lead to an expulsion or potentially lead to non-attendance . so , we 've got to look at it in the round and recognise the connections between the sometimes quite complex needs that these children have within the school setting , that are not just as a result of the fact that they 're looked after ; they have other needs as well . steve davies: and investment in well-being— kirsty williams am: absolutely . steve is reminding me that that 's why well-being is part of the national mission—to address issues around supporting children with their well-being , which is a way of keeping them in school . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 're going to move on to schools challenge cymru now . llyr . llyr gruffydd am: thank you , chair . i was just wondering what your assessment is as to why some schools made progress and others did n't . kirsty williams am: i think we have to recognise that the 39 schools that were part of the programme were in very , very different places . so , i think one of the reasons why some schools did well was because their needs were not so complex , not so deep-seated and a certain level of intervention was enough to get them moving forward . some schools had very , very different needs . i think , talking to those involved in the programme , as always , we had some support advisers , challenge advisers working with those schools as part of the programme who were really , really excellent and really good , and were the right fit for the school and really drove the school onwards . we had other people employed in the programme who , perhaps , were less effective at driving change within those individual schools . so , what we have is a mixed bag of performance , again reflecting the very different challenges that those schools were facing , which led them to be chosen for the programme in the first place . llyr gruffydd am: yes , okay— steve davies: sorry . one of the other key additional factors was the extent to which there had been recent appointment of a new headteacher to that school just before the programme had started , because— kirsty williams am: leadership is all . llyr gruffydd am: and that was seen as a positive . steve davies: a positive , yes . i think one of the challenges is that sometimes the time it takes to make changes in leadership can be protracted and can be a barrier , sometimes , to the speed with which you can move . but , for a significant minority of the schools , there had been recent new appointments of headteachers , which was seen to be contributing , when you looked at the evaluation , to the speed with which they were able to engage . llyr gruffydd am: the reason i was asking was i wanted to understand what lessons the government is taking from that three-year investment , really , and how , maybe , you 're applying some of those lessons to your wider school improvement programme . i know professor mel ainscow identified six interconnected lessons , although i also note that the cabinet secretary did n't actually meet him for about six or seven months after coming into post . so , i 'm just wondering , can you give us confidence that , actually , you are serious about taking lessons from schools challenge cymru and applying them to the wider school improvement agenda ? kirsty williams am: well , absolutely , llyr . i do n't think anything should be read into when i met the individual concerned , because officials were meeting the individual concerned . individual challenge advisers were meeting with the regions , there was crossover work with the fsm agenda as well , and we are absolutely determined that best practice and those interventions that drove school improvement are embedded in the new support that we have via the regional consortia . it 's no coincidence that some of the best people that were employed by schools challenge cymru are now in the employment of our regional consortia . so , those people that were really good and really made a difference do n't work for the schools challenge cymru scheme any more , they work for our regional school improvement services . so , we 're absolutely determined . the things that we have learned , as always , are around leadership . it is absolutely key and crucial to have strong , capable school leadership as a driver for change within the system . we 're looking at systems and processes , so , actually , has a school got in place comprehensive systems of tracking and processes within the school ? we 're looking at the teacher quality—how can we ensure that we have got consistent strategies in place to drive up pedagogy and teacher quality in the classroom ? collaborative activity—again , absolutely key . a school can not see itself in isolation , and one of the key themes of the national mission is a self-improving system , so , collaborative working where schools are looking outside of each other , learning from best practice from other schools . so , there are lots of things that we 've drawn from the evaluation that you will see as key themes running through the national mission , and , as i said , it 's no coincidence that our really good people that were working in schools challenge cymru are now working for the regional consortia , being able to use that expertise not just for a very small proportion of our schools—but that expertise is available to all our schools . llyr gruffydd am: although estyn has told us , of course , that you ca n't expect the consortia to really carry on with that level of intervention and the same kind of intensity as was provided previously , so i 'm just wondering— kirsty williams am: in what way ? llyr gruffydd am: well , we were told by estyn in evidence that they did n't necessarily think that we could expect the consortia to provide the same type of tailored support , and certainly the level of intensity with the improvement boards and everything— kirsty williams am: well , the improvement boards are carrying on , so the improvement boards still exist , and i would—not that i want to argue with estyn— llyr gruffydd am: well , feel free ; this is your opportunity to do so if you— kirsty williams am: what i would say is that those improvement boards are staying on , and our schools categorisation system is used to identify the level of support . now , if you 're a red school , that gives you the entitlement to 25 days of support . that is more than you would have got under the schools challenge cymru programme , which would 've been 20 days . so , actually , moving to this system allows us to really focus in on those schools that need that intensive level of support . and what 's important for me , llyr , in this , okay , is that those schools are not necessarily just the schools that were in the programme . our system now of challenge , advice and support allows us to target resources across all of our schools and across all of our sectors , because you 'll be aware that schools challenge was only available to secondary schools , not available to primary schools . what our system now allows us to do , via the schools categorisation , is to identify schools , wherever they are in wales and whatever sector they 're in , to have that intensive level of support that they need to make improvements . llyr gruffydd am: so , you 're confident that that level of momentum is continuing through the consortia that was previously enjoyed by those particular schools , and you 're also confident that there is minimal risk that they 'll slip back to where they were , potentially , or at least part of the way back . kirsty williams am: well , actually , there are some really good examples of some of the schools challenge cymru schools making that sustained improvement now that the programme has come to an end . you only have to look at tredegar , where we have seen continual improvement and moving up through the categorisation system . that school is now a green school , so they 've been able to sustain their progress at the end of the programme . if we look at armando in eastern high school , again—gosh , my goodness me , we had lots of debates in a previous chamber about the future of eastern . there was one person that said that eastern had to be closed and that the only way forward for that particular school was for it to be shut down , but what we have seen is investment via schools challenge cymru , but ongoing , continual support from the regional consortium , and that school has come out of special measures . i pay absolute tribute to the staff of that school and that community that have done such a good job . so , i 'm absolutely convinced that where we 've got good leadership and good support , some of those schools are making continued , sustained progress even after the end of the programme . the challenge for me is for those schools that schools challenge cymru did n't work for , and we have n't seen that progress—how we can use our school improvement system now to continue to work with those schools to give them the level of support that they need to make a difference . so that 's what my focus is on now : a whole-system approach , rather than choosing 39 schools to get that level of support , when we recognise that there are schools everywhere , potentially , that need intervention , support and challenge , and in the primary sector as well . llyr gruffydd am: okay . so , you would n't agree with a number of—well , the near-unanimous evidence that we 've had from academics , some of whom are government advisers from consortia et cetera , that this kind of programme such as schools challenge cymru would probably need about five years to really have the impact that it was intended to have . kirsty williams am: what i would say is that , from my understanding , from the outset , it was a time-limited programme . the schools were aware of that . there were no surprises that it was supposed to be a time-limited programme . evidence from across the uk showed that school challenge programmes have differed in time . so , for instance , manchester 's challenge was a three-year programme . so , there 's no consensus about how many years you need to run a programme for . the previous minister was quite clear about the time-limited nature of the programme . that 's not to say it was the wrong decision , because what 's important , and an ongoing legacy of the programme , was the investment in regional school improvement capacity , because at the time our school improvement services and the regions were young , in their infancy . the ability of individual local authorities to make a difference , with so many local authorities in an estyn categorisation , was limited , so one of the ongoing legacies of the programme is that significant investment of over £10 million in the capacity of the regions to be able to continue this support and the school improvement work . llyr gruffydd am: so , how disappointed were you that the money for schools challenge cymru went back into reserves and did n't stay in your envelope , as you described it earlier ? i presume you made a pitch for it . did you make a case for that money to stay within your department ? kirsty williams am: llyr , we are constantly having discussions with the minister for finance around support for the education budget . the minister for finance was quite clear that it was a time-limited programme . we were able to secure investment from the finance minister to be able to secure the programme and run it and phase it out to make sure there was transition support , so as we moved from the schools challenge programme into the regional consortia , there were resources to do that . llyr gruffydd am: did you feel there was a case to be made to add to the consortia 's resources and be able to continue that level of support that schools had previously had ? kirsty williams am: well , we did make resources available to the regional consortia to do that . as i say , from the outset , the previous minister was very clear it was a time-limited programme . certainly the schools that i talk to— . and i want to be absolutely clear : i have visited many , many schools challenge cymru schools . i have used that opportunity to talk to them about—heolddu being one of them , hefin , which we went to visit , and willows , for instance . i 'm going to one this afternoon—i 'm going to st illtyd 's this afternoon , and i always take— . i 've been to caergybi in anglesey . i always take the opportunity to speak to those teachers about their experience of the programme and to understand and assure myself that they are getting ongoing support that they see as an appropriate level for them . i think i 've done 19 of the schools . lynne neagle am: hefin on this . hefin david am: with regard to it being a time-limited programme , the previous minister was clear that it was a time-limited programme , but it was n't quite as time-limited as you 've decided to be . is that fair to say ? kirsty williams am: no , it was supposed to be a three-year programme at the most . so , there 's no differential between when i decided it was time-limited and the expectations— hefin david am: so the time limit was the same that the previous minister put on it . kirsty williams am: yes . no change . llyr gruffydd am: but mel ainscow did tell us that there was a fade out in that third year—not that people were giving up , do n't get me wrong , but clearly there was n't that commitment coming from government because the decision had been made , and people felt that it was just fizzling out a little bit , and that impacted on the momentum . kirsty williams am: i would n't characterise it as that . i think there certainly was a transition phase when we knew that the programme was moving and schools were moving into a different level of support , but i certainly would n't describe it as a fading out—not at all . as i said , we were aware that the programme was transitioning and we were determined to get that right for those individual schools , and to learn the lessons and , crucially , to be able to apply those lessons right across the board . steve davies: i can see where the perception would come if a programme director like mel was managing the programme right to the end of the three years exactly the same , and it falls off—not a cliff , but it falls off , then the readiness for schools and the readiness in the system to hand over—so part of the shift of focus was that working as a government with the programme in those schools to working with the programme , those schools and the region . so , i think , inevitably , one party might see it as a decrease in terms of emphasis on their work , but it was necessary for the transition . llyr gruffydd am: but does that cast a bit of a shadow over the transition , then—that one key player within that process felt as such , or are you confident that that was managed well and effectively ? kirsty williams am: i think it was managed well , and we were very clear to recognise success where success has been achieved , but not to gloss over where the programme had not made an impact , because that would n't be good for anybody . there was a formal event to close the programme , which gave everybody an opportunity to get together , to be formally thanked , and for , as i said , congratulations to be given to those people who had really made a difference and , crucially , key staff transferred over into the regional consortia . so , for those individuals , they were able to continue their work , but just be able to apply that work on a regional basis rather than just in an individual school . so , i do n't see that there was any fading out , but there was a transition into a new system , and many of those key personnel transitioned into the system with us . lynne neagle am: have you got any figures for the numbers of staff who went from the programme into the consortia ? kirsty williams am: not off the top of my head , but i can let you know . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got darren first , then mark . kirsty williams am: and can i just say , i met with some of them ? i met with a selection of those people who had been involved in the programme to get their feedback on what they felt had gone right , and what they did n't feel had gone right in the programme . so , i took the time not just to meet the figurehead of the programme , but actually to meet the people who were doing the work in the individual schools . sorry . darren millar am: yes , i just wanted to ask you , you mentioned the figurehead there , i assume by 'the figurehead ' you mean professor ainscow . and you 've mentioned as well that you said you wanted to learn lessons from schools challenge cymru , but he told us that nobody had been in touch with him since march of last year in order to have any sort of follow-up engagement , or to have a dialogue about his perspective on what worked , what did n't work , why there were failures in some areas and why there were successes in others . why have n't you sought that level of engagement with the person who was responsible for running the programme ? kirsty williams am: i 've had that conversation with mr ainscow . we had the evaluation of the programme . we 've spoken to the people who were actually involved in running the programme on a daily basis in individual schools . we 've spoken to the regional consortia . we 've spoken to local education authorities . we 've spoken to a wide variety of people to get their insight into the lessons learned , what was valuable and what was not valuable . so , a wide variety of people have been involved in those conversations . darren millar am: but you 've hardly engaged with mr ainscow—with professor ainscow himself . steve davies: i would actually say that i have had meetings— darren millar am: since march of last year . steve davies: yes , since march of last year . i have n't got the exact dates for you . i 've had discussions with mel ainscow , and my line manager at the time , owen evans , also had meetings and discussions . darren millar am: so , when he told us , 'since last march , i literally have had no contact at all with anybody from welsh government ' , he was telling porky pies , was he ? steve davies: that 's not my recollection . i 'll go back and check for you . lynne neagle am: if you could check and let us know , that would be good . mark . kirsty williams am: yes , well , i just talked about the celebration event to formally mark the end of the programme . my understanding was that it was july of last year , so people were engaged in that . and this idea that somebody has been ignored or frozen out is not how i see or how i regard that situation . lynne neagle am: mark . mark reckless am: i have to say , with professor ainscow my impression was he took great , great pride in the work that he 'd done with schools challenge cymru , and i think he really enjoyed the engagement , the work and the positive relations with the welsh government . but i think there was just a degree of disappointment , perhaps , that at least he did n't feel that he 'd been interrogated as much as he might have been about the lessons learned from the programme , and how perhaps to entrench those as well as possible with the regional consortia . i just wonder , cabinet secretary , if you could invite the professor in , perhaps to have a further debrief with you and take account of some of his thoughts and suggestions for what might help in this area . kirsty williams am: well , mark , as i said , i just do n't think it should be right to characterise this as a failure to engage with a single individual . mark reckless am: i 'm not characterising it that way , cabinet secretary . kirsty williams am: as i said , i met with him , steve has met with him , owen evans has met with him , my special policy adviser has met with him and had discussions . so , there has been an ongoing dialogue . but , mark , i hope that i have demonstrated since i took on this job that i am willing to work with a wide variety of people and to tap into their expertise if it can help me to deliver on the national mission . and if the advice to me is that we have n't sufficiently learnt the lessons , then i 'll gladly have another conversation . what i 'm saying to you—and i 'm absolutely confident—is that we have learnt the lessons , we are taking that work and the good practice forward , and we have done that with conversations with a wide variety of people who had a view on this , from individual schools that were involved in the programme , individual people who were working in those schools , local education authorities , some of which have been very scathing about the programme , i should say , regional consortia— . so , the lessons , i am confident , have been learnt . mark reckless am: i 'm glad to hear that , cabinet secretary , but i still say that , listening to professor ainscow 's evidence , there was a perception , at least from him individually , that the programme should not be seen to be a failure , but a desire that the lessons should be learnt and a feeling or exception , at least on his part , that there was more that he still had to contribute to the process . and just to take one particular example , i think he referred to the schools challenge cymru advisers being very successful in bringing in people who might not otherwise have contributed to this , and the regional consortia have had greater challenges in recruiting people , perhaps in some areas , of the same high standard of some particular individuals , but also from a wide range of different areas that the schools challenge cymru do , and that there could be more to learn in that area as to how to support real excellence and a greater diversity of recruitment for those people . is that something you could perhaps draw on his thoughts further about ? because i think he does feel that he has more to say to welsh government to help in this area . kirsty williams am: firstly , can i say that i have never described the programme as a failure ? i would understand , as someone who has put so much personal investment into the brand of schools challenges , that he would not want anybody to characterise that particular approach to school improvement as a failure . and i want to be absolutely clear that i have never described the programme as a failure , and i want to reassure mr ainscow of that . as i 've said , gosh , my goodness me , if you saw my e-mail inbox and you saw the letters that come in , people are never shy in coming forward to give me advice on what i need to do , what i need to do next , what i 'm doing right , what i 'm doing wrong , and , you know , our doors are always open to listen to people who have interesting things to say about how we can deliver our educational mission . so , people are n't slow in coming forward , i can assure you , with advice . lynne neagle am: julie . julie morgan am: just very quickly . i 'm sure the minister is aware that cardiff put extra funds of its own in to continue schools challenge cymru advisers . so , obviously , they appreciated the value of the scheme , but it does query whether it should have gone on longer . kirsty williams am: julie , i think , to be fair , there are some people who think the scheme was absolutely fantastic . i 've had feedback from people who did n't think the scheme was helpful at all—in fact , they felt it was a hindrance . i 'm very much of the view that the scheme worked really well for some schools in some areas and had less impact in some areas . there is a mixed picture . what 's important to me is that we understand what it was that led those schools to make those big changes , how we can—like mark talked about , the expertise—how we can keep that expertise in the system , and how we can apply the lessons to all schools . lynne neagle am: the next questions , and the final questions , are from john . so , we 're going to need succinct questions and succinct answers . john griffiths am: some questions on regional consortia , cabinet secretary , and , first of all , the role that you believe they should play and how schools use pdg . kirsty williams am: well , it 's an absolute— . it 's one of the things that i have been very clear to the regional consortia that i expect their challenge and support advisers to be asking schools about . so , one of the conversations that they need to have when they are in schools is exploring , with that school , how they are using their pdg , and how they 're demonstrating an impact for those resources . so , it 's a fundamental role for the challenge and support advisers in the regional consortia in their school improvement work . it 's crucial . john griffiths am: that sort of brings to mind some of the research that 's been done on the role of the challenge advisers , cabinet secretary , which suggested that they 're not actually challenging schools in that way , and that there 's very little evidence of schools changing their decisions on the use of pdg as a result of any challenge from those challenge advisers . so , how would you respond to those findings ? kirsty williams am: well , as i said , in my scrutiny of the role and success of our regional consortia , i specifically asked them about free-school-meal performance and the use of pdg within their particular region . i think there is increasing evidence to suggest that good use is being made of that resource , and i think that is being fed back into us . estyn tell us that it 's one of the areas of school expenditure that is closely linked to research and an evidence base . but , clearly , there is more to do , and that 's why we have appointed the new regional advisers for pdg going forward , because we think there can be improvements in how this agenda can be supported at a regional level . john griffiths am: okay . so , you would recognise the findings from that research . kirsty williams am: yes . there 's always more that we can do , and we are strengthening that role by the appointment of the new regional pdg advisers , so that individual school challenge advisers know what they should be looking for , know what they should be doing , and there is a regional approach to good practice . john griffiths am: okay . could you tell the committee , cabinet secretary , how effective you believe the relationship was between the schools challenge cymru programme and the regional consortia 's school improvement functions , and to what extent it varied by region ? kirsty williams am: i think it 's fair to say that , on occasion , i have received feedback that there was a conflict between what was going on at an individual school under the school improvement programme and whether , then , they welcomed support from the regional consortia as part of that . so , in some cases , if we 're being absolutely honest , there could sometimes be tensions between the two , but in most cases , the relationship was very , very positive and there was continuous feedback between the work going on in the schools under the programme and the regional consortia challenge advisers . but i 'm going to be blunt and honest with people—in some cases , it has been reported to me—it 's only anecdotal evidence ; i have n't got hard and fast evidence—that there sometimes was a conflict : 'we 're a school challenge school so we do n't need to participate or listen to any advice that 's coming from the regional consortia . ' or , a local education authority said to me , 'we felt that we could n't get involved in that school anymore because it was part of a different programme . ' those were isolated incidents , and , as i said , it 's only anecdotal feedback . in most cases , the relationship was a very positive one . steve davies: just very quickly , i think that , across the board , it was more complex in the beginning , getting— [ inaudible. ] . but when the programme itself recognised that they needed to work with the regions , and the regions needed to work with them—and i think mel ainscow in his evidence referred to this—it strengthened after some early challenges . i think mel ainscow was working in a number of regions—i ca n't remember which ones—so he 's established relationships— [ interruption . ] sorry ? kirsty williams am: central south . steve davies: central south . he has already been working in that , so i think it possibly had a stronger springboard in terms of the early working . kirsty williams am: because he already had relationships that he had already developed in that particular region . as always , with many of these things , it 's about individuals and relationships . john griffiths am: okay . finally from me , cabinet secretary : in 2015-16 , estyn reported on regional consortia not sufficiently focusing on particular groups of pupils and tracking their outcomes—for example , vulnerable pupils . i just wonder what you are able to tell us in terms of to what extent there has been necessary progress since 2015-16 . kirsty williams am: okay . well , i think it 's important to recognise that all four consortia underwent monitoring visits in the autumn of last year , of 2017 , which were n't reflected in the estyn annual report for 2015-16. estyn , through these 2017 inspections , have said that three out of the four regional consortia are making strong progress in their particular work , and we are continuing , as welsh government , to work with the other regional consortia to address the findings of the estyn report . john griffiths am: and that would include these particular issues . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . the committee probably has n't had an opportunity to see , but , only this morning , estyn has released a report on more able and talented , and has positive things to say in the field of more able and talented , which was being asked about earlier by members—you know , evidence of improved working and support in that particular arena . but , again , we need to ensure a consistency across all the regions , and that the findings of estyn 's most recent reports into regional performance are followed through . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . as we 've got a couple of minutes left , if i can just jump back to the issue of practical uses of the pdg—because it 's the only thing we have n't really covered and it would be good to get on the record—can i ask to what extent you 'd like to see the pdg used to track the progress of eligible pupils ? and the committee 's heard that there are several different tracking systems and tools used by schools . to what extent is that an issue to do with what the welsh government is promoting ? or is it down to consortia or individual schools ? and do you think there needs to be a more centralised push on how the tracking is undertaken ? kirsty williams am: firstly , can i say it 's absolutely crucial that we track performance , absolutely crucial ? that 's the bedrock . we do n't dictate to individual schools the nature of the system that they should employ in their school . there are a number of different programmes that allow schools to do this , but we are absolutely clear , and best practice and evidence shows us , that individual pupil tracking is key and crucial . and , as i said in the beginning , where we were n't tracking pupils at all , initial investment in pdg was used to establish these systems within schools . again , one of the outcomes from the schools challenge review , and one of the lessons learnt , was , again , the importance of individual tracking of pupils throughout their school career . but we do n't dictate a single system . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . kirsty williams am: but the principle is a really important one . lynne neagle am: okay , and you do n't think there 's more scope to look at what the best system is that can be recommended to schools . kirsty williams am: that 's not something we 're actively looking at . i am actively looking at developing a welsh toolkit around good practice , evidence base and research . at the moment we use the sutton trust toolkit , which is fine and excellent , but we are having active discussions about whether we 're in a position , now , to look at developing a suite of a welsh toolkit to support this agenda , and that 's under active consideration . lynne neagle am: okay . well , we 've reached the end of our session . can i thank the cabinet secretary and the officials for attending and for answering such a wide range of questions ? as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you again for coming . kirsty williams am: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: thank you . okay . item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the minister for children and social care on families first funding . paper to note 2 is a letter from the cabinet secretary for education , updating us on the supply teacher issue . paper to note 3—another letter from the cabinet secretary for education , providing further information following our meeting on 15 february . paper to note 4 is a letter from the wjec on availability of textbooks . paper to note 5—a letter from qualifications wales , also on availability of textbooks . and paper to note 6 is a letter from the cabinet secretary for education to the children 's commissioner for wales , following up on the dialogue that they 've been having about our inquiry . are members happy to note those ? thank you . item 4 , then , is for me to propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

some of the schools challenge cymru schools are making sustained improvement now that the programme has come to an end . like the example of tredegar , where we have seen continual improvement and moving up through the categorisation system . the challenge is for those schools that schools challenge cymru did n't work for , and they have n't seen the progress of how to use the school improvement system now to continue to work with those schools . so now the focus is a whole-system approach , rather than choosing 39 schools to get that level of support . schools challenge cymru would probably need about five years to really have the impact that it was intended to have .

summarize the discussion on the roles regional consortia and cabinet secretary should play . </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to this morning 's children , young people and education committee . we 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members who are present if they wish to declare any interests ? okay , thank you . item 2 this morning is our final evidence session for our inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams am , cabinet secretary for education ; steve davies , director of the education directorate ; and ruth conway , deputy director , support for learners division . welcome to all of you , and thank you for your attendance and also for the paper that you 've provided in advance . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions , and the first questions are from llyr gruffydd . llyr gruffydd am: bore da . i just want to start by asking some questions around the targeting of the pupil development grant because , clearly , we 've had a lot of evidence around this apparent blurring of eligibility to an extent . i 'm just wondering how comfortable you are that the money is being targeted appropriately because , clearly , it 's being targeted more widely than just those eligible for free school meals , from some of the evidence we 've had , but also that it seems to be predominantly focused on low-attaining frees—pupils who are eligible for free school meals . kirsty williams am: thank you , llyr . i think it 's important to be absolutely clear that when it comes to individual interventions , those individual interventions should only be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals . but in some cases , schools may use their pdg funding to provide a universal intervention , but we would want to—in challenge advisers ' discussions in schools—we 'd want to have evidence that that universal intervention would have a disproportionate effect on the outcomes for children on free school meals . so , for instance , if i give you an example in your own region , llyr : at brynteg county primary school in wrexham , if you look at that primary school in wrexham , their results for free-school-meal children at the end of their primary school period in school are equivalent to their non-free-school-meal counterparts . so , there is no differentiation in those results . one of the things that they 've used their pdg for is to really focus on the concept of growth mindset in school . so , that 's a universal thing that they 've trained all the teachers in , but what we know is that that has a disproportionate effect on those children who are on free school meals . so , if you 're familiar with the concept of a growth mindset , it 's about really challenging learners to think that , ' i can do things . if sometimes i fail , i pick myself up , i 'm more resilient . ' now , that has been , as i said , trained to all the teachers in the school—it 's an ethos for the whole school—but we have seen that the impact on the free-school-meal children has been even greater , and now they 're at the same level . so , that 's the important distinction . individual intervention per child has to be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals , but sometimes a school will employ a whole-school approach to train their staff , for instance , and that , then , has to demonstrate it has a disproportionate effect on free school meals . so , growth mindset ; it may be attachment disorder training for staff , for instance , where we know it 's of benefit to everybody , but will have particular benefits for that cohort of students . with regard to more able and talented , you know , llyr , that this is an area of concern for me , generally , within the welsh education system ; that we 've not been particularly good at identifying , supporting and driving attainment for those children . i 'm absolutely clear that pdg needs to be used for those children who are eligible to drive potential , whatever the potential of that child is , including more able and talented . and again , i 'll give you an example that has been seen as good practice in pembrokeshire : a window on the world bus , again paid for by schools . i do n't know if you 're aware of it . llyr gruffydd am: we 've heard about that . kirsty williams am: oh , you 've heard about it ; well , it 's a really good example the window on the world . and , again , that 's very much targeted at raising aspirations and giving children who are more able and talented , who are eligible for pdg , those experiences , and to really push them . so , yes , i 'm absolutely clear that pdg should n't just be seen to be getting individuals to the average . for those children who are more able and talented , it should be used to support them— llyr gruffydd am: and we all share those aspirations , i 'm sure , and you pointed to examples of good practice , but of course , it 's not universal , is it , so what i 'm asking is : do you think that the guidance is sufficient as it is ? do you think that there 's a great enough awareness of how the pdg should be used at the coalface ? and also , are you confident that consortia and others have the measures in place to be able to demonstrate that it is being used properly ? kirsty williams am: i think , if we look at what estyn has said about pdg , it does actually recognise that the pdg is being used to push more able and talented children , but as always with the system , llyr , it 's whether we can be sure that that is strategic and that it 's happening across all of our schools . so , you're— llyr gruffydd am: but not just in relation to more able and talented , i 'm referring to the eligibility and the targeting . kirsty williams am: oh , the eligibility . you 'll be aware that , on the advice of sir alasdair , we have employed and appointed new pdg regional advisers , and i think their role is going to be absolutely crucial in spreading that good practice across the region , whether that 's use of pdg for more able and talented , or ensuring that pdg is used in the appropriate way . so , that 's there to provide strategic overall advice . and obviously , we have been very clear with regional challenge advisers , in the relationship and the conversations they 're having with individual schools , that they 're really challenging their schools about the use of pdg , not just in terms of targeting , but the programmes , what the money is being spent on , whether there is an evidence base for that and whether we are clear on impact . so , i think the new regional advisers are going to be crucial in enabling us to ensure more consistent practice across the regions . llyr gruffydd am: so , are you content that eligibility for free school meals is the best measure , really , of identifying which pupils to target ? kirsty williams am: llyr , in the absence of anything better . i 'll be the first person to say that maybe it 's not as absolutely focused , but in the absence of anything different to identify a proxy for need , i think it 's probably the best that we 've got at present . and we will continue to have discussions with local government about whether there are different ways . we have to be mindful . some of the policy levers in this area are out of my hands , so if we look at the roll-out of universal credit , for instance , we 've got officials working very hard at the moment to try and understand what universal credit is going to mean and where we are going to be able to identify relative need , going forward . we have n't had any additional resource as a result of this , but we 're very mindful that , potentially , this has an impact , going forward . and , officials are working all of the time , i must say , in conjunction with the department in england , to understand their thinking in this area so that we are in a position to make some decisions about what a notional eligibility for free school meals will look like going forward , but before i make any decisions , i want to assure everybody that there will be a full public consultation on that . llyr gruffydd am: okay . finally for now , on this issue of once a year , in january , if you 're eligible for free school meals , then you 're in that group for that year . we 've had some quite strong evidence about how difficult that makes longer term planning for a number of schools and we 've also been pointed in the direction of what 's happened in england with the ever 6 , and i 'm just wondering whether you 're giving any thought to maybe changing that a little bit . kirsty williams am: well , we 're certainly giving thought to flexibility . in conversations with alasdair , who is our independent adviser on this agenda , and individual schools , we 're actively giving thought to greater flexibility and maybe longer term projections , so that schools know , for a number of years ahead , what their allocation will be . there are advantages to that system , because you could give that flexibility , you could give that long-term approach , but then , how do you make that responsive if a school suddenly has more children ? we do know that , actually , the number of free-school-meal pupils is dropping . but there can be changes , you know , regional working in areas of north wales in tourism , or maybe in other areas at christmas time , parents are able to get a period of work . so , how can we create a more flexible system ? we 're actively looking at that at the moment . i would n't use it as an ever 6 concept , but as an 'ever 2 ' concept . we have looked at ever 6 , and i 'm going to be absolutely blunt with you : to introduce an ever 6 concept for wales would mean in the region of identifying an additional £40 million . i 'm going to be absolutely straight and blunt with you : we 're not in a position at the moment to be able to identify an additional £40 million to introduce an ever 6. but issues around flexibility , certainly , are actively under consideration . in fact , we 'll be having a discussion later on today about decisions , going forward , for the next two years . llyr gruffydd am: thank you . lynne neagle am: darren on this . darren millar am: it 's just a very brief point in response to the £40 million price ticket that you just put on that . that 's , of course , assuming that you maintain the current level of pdg , yes ? so , if you reduced the level of pdg slightly , but made it available to more individuals , if you like , via allocating it in a different way , then that £40 million price ticket would n't be there , would it ? kirsty williams am: i was asked a question about had i ever considered an ever 6. we have looked at that , we 've priced that up . i have to make decisions in the envelope of resources that are available to me . we could , indeed , change the way in which we allocate pdg money , but we have to do it within the envelope that is available to me , over £90 million . that 's a significant level of investment , but , of course , as always , darren , we could cut the amount per pupil , but that might have quite challenging swings in allocations . what we have done—because what i am clear on is that there was evidence to suggest that in the secondary sector , a great deal of pdg was being focused on years 10 and 11 , especially year 11 , in catch-up provision , and you 'll be aware , because we 've said this in evidence to the committee in the papers , we 've set a challenge to secondary schools to say , 'actually , the majority of your pdg allocation has to be used in key stage 3 . ' now , we have to balance the needs , the moral hazard of turning round to children in years 10 and 11 and saying , 'we're not going to provide catch-up opportunities for you , ' because , clearly , those children need that support . but the evidence and the advice that we 're receiving is : actually , strong focus on early years , primary and key stage 3 , if we get that right , should negate the need for spending money on catch-up at years 10 and 11. that 's why we , in our advice to local authorities and schools , say that we want to see evidence that they 're spending this money earlier on in a child 's career , rather than just a scramble at year 11 to say , 'right , we 've got to get you through your exams . ' darren millar am: okay , but have you actively considered , then , reducing the level you have ? kirsty williams am: we've— ruth conway: sorry—i was just going to say that one of the things is looking at the scope of the definition , and i think it 's about being more flexible with the definition , rather than reducing the amount per head . darren millar am: okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you . if we can go on , then , to talk about some of the practical uses of the pdg , you write in your written paper that 'the majority of schools are making well thought out and appropriate decisions ' on how to use it . but estyn reported that only two thirds of primary and secondary schools make effective use of the pdg . given that we 've had it now for six years , would you not have expected there to be a higher level of schools actually making good use of that funding ? kirsty williams am: well , to flip it on its head , the vast majority of schools , as identified by estyn , are using this money to good effect . so , that 's the way i like to see it—that the vast majority of schools are doing well . what estyn has also indicated is the intrinsic link here to leadership within individual schools , and as you 'll be aware , leadership , improving capacity in leadership and developing leadership talent in the welsh education system is a key priority for me in our national mission . of course , that 's being developed in a different work stream . i think what 's fair to say is that the use of pdg is evolving over time . i think we are seeing , increasingly , more and more schools understanding how best to deploy that money for best effect for students . so , if we 're honest , when pdg first started , i think , in some schools it was spent on investing in tracking of children , because they 'd never thought about tracking these children , they did n't have systems in place to look at the performance of these children , and to have a system in place . so we 've moved now from spending money on the infrastructure around support for fsm children into actual inputs in terms of teaching and learning . we 're also seeing from estyn that , actually , in terms of money following the evidence of what we know works , estyn says that pdg is probably the best example of schools following tried and tested and evidence-based interventions to deploy the money . but clearly we want all of this money to be deployed as well as it can be , and again we come back to the decision i 've made to appoint regional pdg advisers so that we can get that better consistency of approach . we are , in the discussions that i have with the regional consortia about how they challenge individual schools on usage , looking for very clear evidence of schools using the sutton trust toolkit , and we could have a discussion about whether that 's the right thing , because that 's on my mind too . but we want to see schools demonstrating their evidence base , and if they 're not , if a school is n't doing that , okay , so demonstrate to us why you 've made those decisions and , crucially , what are you doing as the school to judge whether that decision is actually making a difference for your individual pupils . so , if you 're moving away from tried and tested interventions , what we know works , if you 're doing something different with your money , okay , you need to justify that and you need to explain how you 're going to demonstrate impact . but i think what we 're seeing is increasing good practice in this area as the pdg develops and as our understanding of our school-to-school working in our self-improving school system also develops . i think we 're seeing better usage of the money year on year . lynne neagle am: thank you . llyr on this . llyr gruffydd am: you mentioned some schools will be moving from the tried-and-tested interventions , really , and i 'm just wondering to what extent that evolution of use of pdg is being driven by cuts to core funding . kirsty williams am: no , i do n't think it 's being driven by cuts to core funding . i think there has been— . one of the biggest impacts of pdg has not been—well , i suppose it is the money in itself , because the money has concentrated the minds , has n't it ? so , one of the most important things that pdg has done is highlight the importance of this agenda within schools , and really raise this up in the thinking of leadership and senior management teams in our schools , and has driven a focus on scrutiny and accountability in the systems that are working with our schools . i think the changing use of pdg reflects the journeys that schools have been on , some of them from a very low base where this was not a priority for them , to better understanding , and as research and as intelligence grows over time in this area , both in wales and outside of wales , schools are increasingly learning to use that evidence to tailor approaches in their schools . llyr gruffydd am: so you would n't accept at all that some of this money 's being used to paper over some funding cracks from elsewhere . because the unions and some others have told us that , whether we like it or not , there is some of that going on . kirsty williams am: as i said , llyr , we 're very clear about the usage that this money can be spent on in terms of individuals or universal application within schools , and that forms an important part of the checks and balances that we have in our system . can we continue to improve , and ensure that more and more of our schools are employing best practice ? yes , we can , and as i 've said , we 've taken steps to put in place the infrastructure to support that . lynne neagle am: thank you . mark 's questions are next . mark reckless am: cabinet secretary , how would you assess the impact of pdg on attendance and hopefully subsequent engagement with education from children who have free school meals ? kirsty williams am: i think what 's important to note is that , as estyn have themselves said , over the period of the last inspection report , we have seen improvements in attendance , but i do think we need to , again , look at how pdg can support this particular agenda . and as always in the welsh education system , there are some excellent examples of how schools use the money to address this . ysgol y preseli in pembrokeshire is a very good example of how they 've deployed their money . forgive me ; i ca n't off the top of my head remember the name of the primary school i visited , again in north wales , where the school has proactively used this money , and they actually send teaching assistants out of school in the morning before the start of the school day , and they actually have a walking bus . they call at homes for children , and they walk the children to the breakfast club . so , they 're proactively going out into the community and making sure that those children are in the classrooms , because the teacher said , 'we recognised we had a problem with attendance . we tried a variety of means of improving that , but in the end we have taken this quite bold step—we actually send the staff out and they create that walking bus , and they walk the children into school ' . they say that they know that , for some of those children , because of the difficult circumstances they and their families are living in , they probably would n't be in school if it was n't for that proactive approach . so , we 're looking again at what more we can do to support this particular agenda in terms of improving attendance , because although , again , there are examples of good practice , there is still a gap between the attendance of free-school-meal pupils and non-free-school-meal pupils . and , of course , we can have the best curriculum in the world with really high-quality teaching , but unless the children are in the classes then we 're not going to make the difference for them . whilst that differential exists , then it 's going to be hard to close the attainment gap for those children . mark reckless am: i was actually quite shocked just reading in advance of this meeting that the proportion attending 95 per cent or more , who have pretty full attendance , was only 35 per cent for free-school-meal children at level 4 , compared to 60 per cent for non-free-school-meal pupils . it still is an extraordinary difference . my colleague here showed me , i think , last week , a graph showing the link between attendance and attainment , in particular . when people were absent , a lot of the— . as i 'm sure you 're aware , there 's a huge connection . what more can pdg do to deal with it ? in the example you give i can see how a school with an awful lot of free-school-meal children could do that , but a lot of the free-school-meal children are actually in schools that do n't have that high a proportion of free school meals , where it would be much more challenging to bring in that type of initiative . kirsty williams am: yes , indeed , and i think it gets more challenging the older the children get . i think it 's more difficult to find interventions that are successful higher up , so key stage 4. so , you can do a walking bus with little ones , ca n't you , but i do n't suppose your average 15 or 16-year-old is going to take very kindly to that . so , you do need a different approach to that . but again , we see in ysgol y preseli the employment of staff to directly work with families of older children to reinforce the messages around , as you quite rightly say , the linkage between attendance and attainment , and really work with individual families to understand the barriers to attendance : what 's going on in the family that is preventing that child from going to school , and what more can the school do to address those situations . but you 're absolutely right ; there is more that we need to do to address this particular agenda of attainment . i do n't know if there 's anything extra you wanted to add , steve . steve davies: there is also another very good example—and i take what you say about where there are small numbers—but in our secondary schools where there are significant numbers , they 're investing pdg in resources like a school nurse and a school counsellor , not just to work with the children but link to other agencies on whom the children and the families are dependent to support them in terms of working with schools . so , it 's something , particularly in our most challenging areas , where it can not just be delivered within the school . so , good use of that resource is being made to employ people to support them in those wider areas . mark reckless am: thank you . to what extent is pdg also used to seek to reduce the higher rates of exclusion for children entitled to free school meals ? kirsty williams am: so , if we looked at permanent exclusions , there is n't a differential , but if we look at temporary exclusions , there we see there is a disproportionate number of children on free school meals that are subject to those exclusions . again , i think what schools employing best practice understand is that you need a multi-agency approach to supporting that particular child . some of those exclusions can be as a result of the need to address other issues going on in a child 's life . so , this is where we come back to the committee 's work , for instance , on mental health and support for children , support for behaviour in school . so , again , it 's a multi-agency approach that i think we need , and , in our good schools , our really , really good schools , there 's a recognition of that need to have a whole team around a child to support that child in education . with eotas , we made some changes last year regarding pdg for eotas . so , for those children who do find themselves in education other than at school , we are providing additional support that previously was not available . mark reckless am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . we 're going to move on now to talk about the impact of pdg on attainment . hefin david has got some questions . hefin david am: it appears that the attainment gap at 2017 has actually widened , in spite of pdg levels . is that correct ? kirsty williams am: yes . so , if you look at it—with the usual caveats about whether you can make direct comparisons on level 2 plus between the exams the year before and the exams that we had last summer—on the face of it , the gap has increased . i think what 's important to recognise , hefin , is a direction of travel . i 'm sure we all want to , because i want to , have a discussion about why children on free school meals were less resilient in the exam system last year . but , if we look at the period that we have been employing pdg , over that period , we have seen a narrowing of the gap . i think what 's quite stark , if we think about it— . so , if we look at where we started from : in 2009 , one in five children on free school meals got level 2 plus—one in five—by 2016 , we had got that down to one in three . obviously , there 's still a way to go , but , sir alasdair , who knows about these things , says that that is a significant improvement . last year , we got some challenges . we need to understand why that happened , but i do think it's— hefin david am: why , do you think ? kirsty williams am: why , do i think ? what i do think is there is no one answer . there is no one answer to this . i think we could look at and we can have discussions around the move from btec to science gcses . i think we have supplied figures to the committee about the significant change in the number of children on free school meals who were n't doing a single science gcse and are now doing science gcses . we can look at the unintended consequences of literature . again , we 've supplied figures . where children have done language and literature , whether that be through the medium of english or through the medium of welsh , there is more resilience . so , it 's that exposure to literacy in all its forms that i think could potentially make a difference . so , i think there 's no one answer to why free-school-meal children were not so resilient last year . we continue to have discussions with qualifications wales to get a better understanding of this . at my next ministerial policy board , in may , we 'll be doing a deep dive into this particular subject . hefin david am: so , to what extent would exam boards be responsible for lack of grade stability ? kirsty williams am: it could be one of the contributory factors . what i think is important is that there is no one , single reason why there seems to be less resilience in this cohort of children . hefin david am: will you be speaking to the exam boards about this and raising concerns ? kirsty williams am: i have written to qualifications wales , we 've had discussions about it , but i 've asked them to formally submit evidence ahead of my policy board for may , where , as i said , we will be doing a formal , deep-dive discussion across the department about these issues . but , again , hefin , what we 've got to be clear on is—while we look at overall factors , you know , our overall national statistic—we did see some schools last year whose fsm performance was better than it had been the year before . so , what was it in those schools that enabled those children to do really well , whereas , in other schools , the performance was different ? even in individual cities , you can see a huge variety of performance . so , take cardiff and swansea , our two biggest cities . you 've got schools in those cities with comparative levels of free school meals . so , you could have really high-performing schools with a very small number of the cohort on free school meals . the difference between those performances in a single city—so , that 's the same local education authority and the same regional consortium—you can see a massive change . there 's one school i can talk to : their free-school-meal performance is 88 per cent . a similar school in the same city with the same proportion of children on free school meals , their performance is down in the 20 per cents . so , i think what 's important is that we ca n't draw broad-brush conclusions . for me , the challenge is to go into individual schools and understand what was happening in that particular school that ensured that their children did really well . we 've got one school in swansea , their fsm performance at gcse level 2 outperforms non-fsm pupils . hefin david am: but we still need to rely on the trends from a distance . if we take your argument that 2017 was an unusual year and the trends up to 2016 were positive , in a few years ' time , when we will be looking back in two years ' time , how are we going to measure this progress , say , in 2019 ? what are we likely to see and what methods are you going to use to measure progress that way ? kirsty williams am: well , you 'll be aware that we are moving away from level 2 plus as a performance measure anyway because of the— hefin david am: so , what performance measures will you use ? kirsty williams am: so , for the lack of sophistication around the level 2 plus , and for the unintended behaviours that that particular performance measure has driven within our schools . i 'll be making a statement shortly to the assembly around a new performance measure for schools . we were , at our most recent secondary heads conference , working with schools to develop that . what 's important to me is that we have a more sophisticated model that looks at school performance for all children . what level 2 plus does is narrow , very much , the focus of schools on an individual part of the cohort , usually the c/d borderline , which is why then we have problems with the number of students getting a b grade or above . we have marked success in our schools by saying to schools that a c is good enough . well , if a child gets a c but came to you in year 7 and they were destined to get an e , yes , indeed , a c is a success , because you 've moved that child on ; but , if that child came to you destined to get an a * and gets a c , then we have n't done a good job by that particular child . so , we need a performance measure that is much more sophisticated , looks at each individual child , tracks that progress , and measures the value added by that school in performance . hefin david am: last question : therefore , should we have confidence in the data up to 2016 ? is there a lack of confidence in that data ? kirsty williams am: no , it 's not a lack of confidence in the data . the data is the data . what i 'm saying is , using that as a performance measure and an accountability measure within our school system may have been right for the time . i think it is now right to have a different way of measuring success in schools . i think that particular set of performance measures has driven certain behaviours—not because ministers wanted that to happen , but as an unintended consequence . i think we can work together with our school system , learning the lessons of international best practice , to develop much more sophisticated accountability and performance measures for individual schools , and , i should say , for the government . so , you will be aware of my intention to issue the first national report card on government performance later on this year . so , this is not about trying to avoid scrutiny . it 's about trying to develop a more sophisticated way , which is in line with our national mission , where every child 's education is valued , and where the impact of the school can be tracked more effectively . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . can i just ask , cabinet secretary , are you still holding on to your target of 37 per cent of free-school-meal pupils achieving the level 2 threshold ? kirsty williams am: well , we 're moving away from the level 2 threshold . so , that 's the first thing to say . so , we will want to develop a new suite , in line with our new accountability measures , as we go forward . so , we will be absolutely continuing to track and evaluate the performance of free-school-meal pupils . when we announce our new accountability measures , i will be in a position to address how we 'll measure the government's performance , and national performance , going forward . but , given the fact that we 're moving away from level 2 plus , then we will need a different set of performance indicators . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the next questions are on looked-after children and adopted children , and i 've got questions from michelle then mark . michelle brown am: thank you . good morning— mark reckless am: i was to come in first , i think . i was about to ask about icf consulting . lynne neagle am: go on then . mark reckless am: i think my questions are first , but , michelle , please do correct me if you were planning to come in before . the pdg for looked-after children does n't quite seem to have the degree of visibility as the pdg for the free-school-meals . i think we had the mori/wiserd survey—only 15 per cent of primary schools and 23 per cent of secondary schools were aware that pdg was targeted at looked-after children . i just wonder—can you clarify on the record here what is the role of schools with pdg for looked-after children as compared to the regional consortia in this field ? kirsty williams am: okay . i think it is absolutely fair to say that most awareness around pdg is around free school meals . there is less awareness around the availability of pdg to support looked-after children . i think that 's probably in the nature of the cohort , so , there are more children subject to free school meals than are subject to being looked after . so , i think that 's part of the explanation . a decision was taken in 2015 to regionalise pdg for looked-after children . my understanding was that the thinking behind that at the time was around a greater strategic deployment of that resource and to try and drive a greater impact than how it was being used previously . so , looked-after pdg is held at a regional level . we have looked-after children pdg co-ordinators—they 're in their second year this year—to look at a regional deployment of that resource . and that resource can be done in a variety of ways , through individual allocation to a school to support an individual child , through to capacity building for the whole system . so , for instance , if i give you an example , in carmarthenshire , there 's been a big emphasis on attachment disorder and training teachers with regard to the impact of attachment disorder . carmarthenshire happens to be one of those local authorities that does quite well in terms of attainment for looked-after children . but , clearly , i have—not concerns . 'concerns ' is n't the right word . but i have asked officials to give greater scrutiny to how that resource has been used in the last year . steve , on my behalf , wrote out to the system , setting out our expectations , but also advising them of the fact we will be asking very detailed questions of accountability for that money . so , what has that money been used on and how can you account for the effect ? but , steve , maybe you can give some greater detail . steve davies: i think the challenge that— . one of the rationales for shifting—not that all the money stays in the region , but having a regional strategic support—was that , historically , the money was going directly with that child to the school . given the quite often rapid turnover of children in schools—the very nature of looked-after children is they do sometimes move through foster parents—historically , what happened , the money lands in the school , because , at that time in the year , when it 's measured , the school gets the money and can spend it on some additional support for staff , but quite often that child moves on to another school and the money does n't transfer . some schools will go through quite a number of years without having a looked-after child and will not think strategically , 'how do i need to support them ? ' so , that was the rationale of the shift . in terms of the implementation of the regional allocation , as of this financial year finishing , we are going into local authorities and regions to evaluate where they 've located the resource , what the impact of that resource has been , so that is reinforced and shared more widely . kirsty williams am: and then , to reassure , it 's not just internally that we 're looking at this . we have a contract with an external agency to do an evaluation— mark reckless am: that 's icf consulting . kirsty williams am: yes . yes , so that was done in the autumn of last year , because , as i said , we had concerns about whether this was really having the effect that was intended . so , my expectation is that we will be in a position to receive that report later on this spring , and of course it would be my intention that that report would be made public for people to have a look at what— mark reckless am: that was commissioned last autumn— kirsty williams am: yes , in november 2017 . mark reckless am: november 2017 . kirsty williams am: so , i 'm hoping to have that published before the summer recess . i 'm very reluctant to say months ; i 've learnt not to say months , because they move . lynne neagle am: i 'm going to go to michelle now , mark , because— mark reckless am: sure . i will come back in if i have anything further to ask here after michelle . lynne neagle am: —both of you asked for these questions , and that 's what the pre-meeting is for . mark reckless am: michelle , i defer to you . lynne neagle am: michelle . michelle brown am: okay , thank you . would you be open , cabinet secretary , to the idea of adjusting the eligibility of the pdg so that pupils who have been looked after or adopted at any point within a previous given period of time would attract the pdg , rather than only if they 're looked-after on a one-off date ? kirsty williams am: as i said earlier , in questions from , i think it was , llyr , who was talking about concepts of concepts of ever 6 , we are constantly looking at how we can get that balance between focus and flexibility for this resource . llyr opened with the question of , 'how can you absolutely ensure that these children are getting the money ? ' , but then there 's also a tension about how can you create some flexibility around the school 's usage of the grant . so , we will look at that . i think there is the issue of where a school would know of a child that was looked after . issues around adoption are slightly more sensitive , because we could n't force a family to tell a school that their child was an adopted child . so , a family may be very open and very keen to explain that to a school , but we ca n't necessarily track as closely children who have been adopted , especially if that adoption happens before the child goes to school . we ca n't be in a position of forcing families to disclose this information if they do n't want to , but we certainly can , as i say , look to strengthen our monitoring arrangements around pdg support for looked-after children and the impact that that 's having . i just think we need to be a bit mindful of people 's privacy in some instances . if they do n't want to divulge that , it would n't be my job to tell a family , 'you have to let us know if your child is adopted . ' lynne neagle am: michelle . michelle brown am: fair enough ; thank you for that answer . the eas consortium 's approach to using the looked-after and adopted pdg is to use it as part of a broader approach targeted at vulnerable learners in general . what are your views on that approach ? kirsty williams am: i 'm a great believer in if we can get it right for our most vulnerable learners , we 'll be getting it right for all of our learners . i gave the example earlier , for instance , of attachment disorder , and , chair , you will know that i have had conversations . one of the emerging themes for me , as i go around visiting schools , is the impact and the growing awareness and the growing numbers of children who have attachment disorder , and how schools are best able to respond to that in their children . so , for instance , as i said about carmarthenshire , there 's been a huge effort to address that in the school sector in carmarthenshire . now , that has a disproportionate benefit for those children , because you 're more likely to see attachment disorder in children who are care experienced , because of the nature of the lives that those children have lived , but that does n't necessarily mean that attachment disorder is exclusively found in those children that are looked after . it can be found in other families as well . so , that vulnerable learner , regardless of their background , will benefit from having teachers who are better trained , understanding and have intervention strategies in place to be able to address that need . steve davies: i think it 's also important to add that this is not one region 's approach ; this is across four regions , so the others— . for example , erw have run a significant programme looking at the impact of adverse childhood experiences on pupils , which has enabled teachers to detect some of the impact of some of those and then considers some of the work they need to do within the school but also with other agencies . so , it is something that's applied consistently across the four regions . kirsty williams am: i was in pil primary school recently where they use their pdg , both fsm pdg , and no doubt an element of pdg for looked-after , for nurture groups . so , for those children who really , really find it very difficult to be in the main classroom , they can have that nurture group experience to address issues around emotional behaviour , feelings , and it gets them in a position where they are able then to join the main classroom because issues around behaviour have been addressed and they 're in a better position to learn . so , again , this is an example of how vulnerable learners in the wider sense can benefit . lynne neagle am: okay . mark , did you have anything you wanted to ask ? mark reckless am: yes . can i follow up on tracking adopted children ? i entirely understand that you ca n't force parents to disclose that their child is adopted . however , my understanding was that , in england , there was a dataset with social services that was shared with schools in a way that i 'm not clear is happening in wales and how , if at all , that links to the pupil level annual school census data . perhaps sort of linked to that , is n't there an argument for making the parents of adopted children in the schools , potentially , with adopted children more aware that adopted children who were previously looked after have this potential grant , and would they not be more willing to disclose this , at least confidentially to the school and government , if they knew there was this upside of doing so ? kirsty williams am: we 're actively looking at whether we should try and find a way of collecting this data , with the caveats that i just gave earlier . we ca n't force parents to divulge information that is a matter for them , nor would i want to . but there is an active discussion going on at the moment about whether we could create a dataset where people divulge this information and we can then track the children through . you 're absolutely right . one of the ways in which we can often encourage take-up , for instance , of free school meals , especially in those communities where there is a sense of reluctance to apply for support—even though people are entitled to it , there 's a reluctance to do it ; sometimes we see this in rural areas— . actually , appealing to the parents by saying , 'actually , this will mean more money for your child 's school budget' is a much more compelling reason why people will apply for it then saying , 'actually , it 's going to help you ' , because they do n't want to be seen being dependent , they do n't want to be seen being helped . but , if you say to them , 'actually , do you know that this means more money for your child 's school ? ' , they go , 'oh , all right then , i 'll fill in the forms now . ' so , you 're right , i think there is something that we could do to make parents understand , in the round , that this has an impact . but we are actively looking at and discussing whether we could create a dataset around adopted children and how we can do that in line with data protection and data sharing . one of the things i am concerned about in the performance of looked-after children generally is how we can , across government , work more closely together . we ca n't see the educational attainment of looked-after children just being a job of education . it 's got to be a job of social services and the health service as well . there 's got to be a joined-up approach to doing that . now , officials were at the ministerial advisory group that 's chaired by david melding on prospects for looked-after children . they were there at the group last week . david tells me that the paper was very positively received by the group . i will be sitting down with david melding to talk through what more we can do on the education side . i think there 's really an appetite between me and the minister for children to get a closer working relationship on this . we ca n't expect schools to do it on their own and alone . and there are things that we can do out there in local authorities to help improve outcomes . it 's not just about the pdg ; it is about , when social services are thinking about a placement , where does the discussion about where children are going to go to school—when does that take place ? do we talk about the placement , move a child and then think , 'oh my goodness me , what are we going to do about the schooling ? ' if you can imagine , the school could have been working really , really hard with a pupil to get them in a good place , to get them being able to access the curriculum , and then social services decide that the placement is being changed . so , we potentially lose all of that . so , a greater involvement in education and better linked-up working in local authorities will help us with this . it ca n't be just the job of the pdg . if we think we can crack this with just pdg , then we 're being delusional . it has to be a cross-government approach at a national level , and at a local government level as well , to get this right . sometimes , data protection—how can we break down some of these barriers between , you know , the school does n't need to , schools should n't see , the entire social services report ? well , maybe the school does need to see some of that background information if they 're going to have an impact for that child . so , there 's more work to do , but it can not be just the job of education on its own if we 're going to make a difference , nor can it just be the job of the pdg to make a difference for those children . lynne neagle am: thank you . julie 's got some more questions on the impact on adopted and looked-after children . julie morgan am: yes , before i go on to those , i just wanted to support , really , what mark was saying about adopted children and how important it is , i think , that the adoptive parents feel able to speak to the school and to give information . because certainly any evidence we 've had from adoptive parents , and generally knowing about what adoptive parents do feel , is that they often feel that there 's a degree of a lack of sensitivity in the school about the issues of adoption . i would certainly support some move towards ensuring that the atmosphere was open in a way that would encourage them to realise that it would be a help for the children if there was an awareness in the school . so , i just wanted to really reinforce that . kirsty williams am: yes , and that would chime with what i hear from many adoptive parents . i 'm just trying to be sensitive by saying we ca n't force people to divulge this information if they do n't want to . julie morgan am: no , but they need to be given the opportunity . kirsty williams am: yes , you 're right . we need to make sure that those parents feel that they can discuss this with school leaders and classroom teachers and explore how best those individual children can be supported , and how best we can support parents . because , again—and i 've said this a lot—after the quality of teaching , the second biggest impact on a child 's educational outcome will be parental engagement . so , being able to create an environment where adoptive parents feel very confident and able to talk about their children 's education is absolutely crucial if we 're going to get that parental engagement that we need for all of our children . julie morgan am: yes . thank you . going on to looked-after children , you say that the latest data on looked-after children 's attainment is extremely disappointing . can you expand on that and what effect the pdg has had in this result , or not had ? kirsty williams am: well , there 's no getting away from it : the way in which we currently measure outcomes for looked-after children , the results are not good enough . it 's a source of huge concern to me that we need to do better for those children . that 's why officials are engaging with the group that david melding is chairing , to make sure that education is integral to that group and it 's not lost sight of . there 's a discussion to be had about the cohort , whether it 's right and correct to compare looked-after children to the main cohort , or whether these statistics are useful in any way . sometimes as well—this is not to make an excuse because , as i 've said in my paper , it 's extremely disappointing , but sometimes it can be really difficult . because the cohort sometimes can be very , very small , it can swing the statistics to look perhaps more dramatic . julie morgan am: i think , generally , when you look at how looked-after children do— kirsty williams am: it 's not good . julie morgan am: —in a much wider evaluation , they 're not doing well , are they ? kirsty williams am: they 're not doing well . so , that 's why we 've got the review , the independent review , into the impact of the pdg in this area . this is why steve is doing the work that he is doing with the regional consortia because , clearly , at the moment , we are not doing what we need to do for that particular cohort of children . i would not make any bones about that at all . steve davies: i think we will not move away from the fact that these children need good gcses to gain employment , so we 'll continue to measure that . i think we need to look at more nuanced evaluations of the data at a lower level . so , for example , there were significant improvements in terms of pdg pupils who got three and four good gcses but did n't get past the threshold . that 's not to cover anything that is not working in terms of improvement , but we will look at the full range and still hold on to the fact that we have to look at a measure that relates to the likelihood of these children going on to further education and training . julie morgan am: and then just one more question about the exclusion rates amongst looked-after children . they are , i understand , over six times more likely to be given a fixed-term exclusion . so , is there any way of trying to address this ? is the pdg used for anything to do with exclusions ? kirsty williams am: we can look at exclusions . we also have to read across about how the whole system works , not just the pdg element of the system . so , we know , for example , that 66 per cent of looked-after learners have some additional learning need , so we ca n't just look at it in terms of this particular source of funding ; we have to look at it at a wider level of support . so , given that the majority of those children will have an aln , how can we make sure that our new aln legislation and our new aln regime meets the needs of these children ? so , i think what we 're looking at , again , is to say that it ca n't be just the job of the pdg . that 's there as an additional level of support , but actually , we 've got to get our aln right . unless we get our aln right , lots and lots of these children are not going to get the support that they need day in , day out via that system . we do know that sometimes , if we 're not addressing aln , then we 're not addressing behaviour issues that then potentially lead to an expulsion or potentially lead to non-attendance . so , we 've got to look at it in the round and recognise the connections between the sometimes quite complex needs that these children have within the school setting , that are not just as a result of the fact that they 're looked after ; they have other needs as well . steve davies: and investment in well-being— kirsty williams am: absolutely . steve is reminding me that that 's why well-being is part of the national mission—to address issues around supporting children with their well-being , which is a way of keeping them in school . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 're going to move on to schools challenge cymru now . llyr . llyr gruffydd am: thank you , chair . i was just wondering what your assessment is as to why some schools made progress and others did n't . kirsty williams am: i think we have to recognise that the 39 schools that were part of the programme were in very , very different places . so , i think one of the reasons why some schools did well was because their needs were not so complex , not so deep-seated and a certain level of intervention was enough to get them moving forward . some schools had very , very different needs . i think , talking to those involved in the programme , as always , we had some support advisers , challenge advisers working with those schools as part of the programme who were really , really excellent and really good , and were the right fit for the school and really drove the school onwards . we had other people employed in the programme who , perhaps , were less effective at driving change within those individual schools . so , what we have is a mixed bag of performance , again reflecting the very different challenges that those schools were facing , which led them to be chosen for the programme in the first place . llyr gruffydd am: yes , okay— steve davies: sorry . one of the other key additional factors was the extent to which there had been recent appointment of a new headteacher to that school just before the programme had started , because— kirsty williams am: leadership is all . llyr gruffydd am: and that was seen as a positive . steve davies: a positive , yes . i think one of the challenges is that sometimes the time it takes to make changes in leadership can be protracted and can be a barrier , sometimes , to the speed with which you can move . but , for a significant minority of the schools , there had been recent new appointments of headteachers , which was seen to be contributing , when you looked at the evaluation , to the speed with which they were able to engage . llyr gruffydd am: the reason i was asking was i wanted to understand what lessons the government is taking from that three-year investment , really , and how , maybe , you 're applying some of those lessons to your wider school improvement programme . i know professor mel ainscow identified six interconnected lessons , although i also note that the cabinet secretary did n't actually meet him for about six or seven months after coming into post . so , i 'm just wondering , can you give us confidence that , actually , you are serious about taking lessons from schools challenge cymru and applying them to the wider school improvement agenda ? kirsty williams am: well , absolutely , llyr . i do n't think anything should be read into when i met the individual concerned , because officials were meeting the individual concerned . individual challenge advisers were meeting with the regions , there was crossover work with the fsm agenda as well , and we are absolutely determined that best practice and those interventions that drove school improvement are embedded in the new support that we have via the regional consortia . it 's no coincidence that some of the best people that were employed by schools challenge cymru are now in the employment of our regional consortia . so , those people that were really good and really made a difference do n't work for the schools challenge cymru scheme any more , they work for our regional school improvement services . so , we 're absolutely determined . the things that we have learned , as always , are around leadership . it is absolutely key and crucial to have strong , capable school leadership as a driver for change within the system . we 're looking at systems and processes , so , actually , has a school got in place comprehensive systems of tracking and processes within the school ? we 're looking at the teacher quality—how can we ensure that we have got consistent strategies in place to drive up pedagogy and teacher quality in the classroom ? collaborative activity—again , absolutely key . a school can not see itself in isolation , and one of the key themes of the national mission is a self-improving system , so , collaborative working where schools are looking outside of each other , learning from best practice from other schools . so , there are lots of things that we 've drawn from the evaluation that you will see as key themes running through the national mission , and , as i said , it 's no coincidence that our really good people that were working in schools challenge cymru are now working for the regional consortia , being able to use that expertise not just for a very small proportion of our schools—but that expertise is available to all our schools . llyr gruffydd am: although estyn has told us , of course , that you ca n't expect the consortia to really carry on with that level of intervention and the same kind of intensity as was provided previously , so i 'm just wondering— kirsty williams am: in what way ? llyr gruffydd am: well , we were told by estyn in evidence that they did n't necessarily think that we could expect the consortia to provide the same type of tailored support , and certainly the level of intensity with the improvement boards and everything— kirsty williams am: well , the improvement boards are carrying on , so the improvement boards still exist , and i would—not that i want to argue with estyn— llyr gruffydd am: well , feel free ; this is your opportunity to do so if you— kirsty williams am: what i would say is that those improvement boards are staying on , and our schools categorisation system is used to identify the level of support . now , if you 're a red school , that gives you the entitlement to 25 days of support . that is more than you would have got under the schools challenge cymru programme , which would 've been 20 days . so , actually , moving to this system allows us to really focus in on those schools that need that intensive level of support . and what 's important for me , llyr , in this , okay , is that those schools are not necessarily just the schools that were in the programme . our system now of challenge , advice and support allows us to target resources across all of our schools and across all of our sectors , because you 'll be aware that schools challenge was only available to secondary schools , not available to primary schools . what our system now allows us to do , via the schools categorisation , is to identify schools , wherever they are in wales and whatever sector they 're in , to have that intensive level of support that they need to make improvements . llyr gruffydd am: so , you 're confident that that level of momentum is continuing through the consortia that was previously enjoyed by those particular schools , and you 're also confident that there is minimal risk that they 'll slip back to where they were , potentially , or at least part of the way back . kirsty williams am: well , actually , there are some really good examples of some of the schools challenge cymru schools making that sustained improvement now that the programme has come to an end . you only have to look at tredegar , where we have seen continual improvement and moving up through the categorisation system . that school is now a green school , so they 've been able to sustain their progress at the end of the programme . if we look at armando in eastern high school , again—gosh , my goodness me , we had lots of debates in a previous chamber about the future of eastern . there was one person that said that eastern had to be closed and that the only way forward for that particular school was for it to be shut down , but what we have seen is investment via schools challenge cymru , but ongoing , continual support from the regional consortium , and that school has come out of special measures . i pay absolute tribute to the staff of that school and that community that have done such a good job . so , i 'm absolutely convinced that where we 've got good leadership and good support , some of those schools are making continued , sustained progress even after the end of the programme . the challenge for me is for those schools that schools challenge cymru did n't work for , and we have n't seen that progress—how we can use our school improvement system now to continue to work with those schools to give them the level of support that they need to make a difference . so that 's what my focus is on now : a whole-system approach , rather than choosing 39 schools to get that level of support , when we recognise that there are schools everywhere , potentially , that need intervention , support and challenge , and in the primary sector as well . llyr gruffydd am: okay . so , you would n't agree with a number of—well , the near-unanimous evidence that we 've had from academics , some of whom are government advisers from consortia et cetera , that this kind of programme such as schools challenge cymru would probably need about five years to really have the impact that it was intended to have . kirsty williams am: what i would say is that , from my understanding , from the outset , it was a time-limited programme . the schools were aware of that . there were no surprises that it was supposed to be a time-limited programme . evidence from across the uk showed that school challenge programmes have differed in time . so , for instance , manchester 's challenge was a three-year programme . so , there 's no consensus about how many years you need to run a programme for . the previous minister was quite clear about the time-limited nature of the programme . that 's not to say it was the wrong decision , because what 's important , and an ongoing legacy of the programme , was the investment in regional school improvement capacity , because at the time our school improvement services and the regions were young , in their infancy . the ability of individual local authorities to make a difference , with so many local authorities in an estyn categorisation , was limited , so one of the ongoing legacies of the programme is that significant investment of over £10 million in the capacity of the regions to be able to continue this support and the school improvement work . llyr gruffydd am: so , how disappointed were you that the money for schools challenge cymru went back into reserves and did n't stay in your envelope , as you described it earlier ? i presume you made a pitch for it . did you make a case for that money to stay within your department ? kirsty williams am: llyr , we are constantly having discussions with the minister for finance around support for the education budget . the minister for finance was quite clear that it was a time-limited programme . we were able to secure investment from the finance minister to be able to secure the programme and run it and phase it out to make sure there was transition support , so as we moved from the schools challenge programme into the regional consortia , there were resources to do that . llyr gruffydd am: did you feel there was a case to be made to add to the consortia 's resources and be able to continue that level of support that schools had previously had ? kirsty williams am: well , we did make resources available to the regional consortia to do that . as i say , from the outset , the previous minister was very clear it was a time-limited programme . certainly the schools that i talk to— . and i want to be absolutely clear : i have visited many , many schools challenge cymru schools . i have used that opportunity to talk to them about—heolddu being one of them , hefin , which we went to visit , and willows , for instance . i 'm going to one this afternoon—i 'm going to st illtyd 's this afternoon , and i always take— . i 've been to caergybi in anglesey . i always take the opportunity to speak to those teachers about their experience of the programme and to understand and assure myself that they are getting ongoing support that they see as an appropriate level for them . i think i 've done 19 of the schools . lynne neagle am: hefin on this . hefin david am: with regard to it being a time-limited programme , the previous minister was clear that it was a time-limited programme , but it was n't quite as time-limited as you 've decided to be . is that fair to say ? kirsty williams am: no , it was supposed to be a three-year programme at the most . so , there 's no differential between when i decided it was time-limited and the expectations— hefin david am: so the time limit was the same that the previous minister put on it . kirsty williams am: yes . no change . llyr gruffydd am: but mel ainscow did tell us that there was a fade out in that third year—not that people were giving up , do n't get me wrong , but clearly there was n't that commitment coming from government because the decision had been made , and people felt that it was just fizzling out a little bit , and that impacted on the momentum . kirsty williams am: i would n't characterise it as that . i think there certainly was a transition phase when we knew that the programme was moving and schools were moving into a different level of support , but i certainly would n't describe it as a fading out—not at all . as i said , we were aware that the programme was transitioning and we were determined to get that right for those individual schools , and to learn the lessons and , crucially , to be able to apply those lessons right across the board . steve davies: i can see where the perception would come if a programme director like mel was managing the programme right to the end of the three years exactly the same , and it falls off—not a cliff , but it falls off , then the readiness for schools and the readiness in the system to hand over—so part of the shift of focus was that working as a government with the programme in those schools to working with the programme , those schools and the region . so , i think , inevitably , one party might see it as a decrease in terms of emphasis on their work , but it was necessary for the transition . llyr gruffydd am: but does that cast a bit of a shadow over the transition , then—that one key player within that process felt as such , or are you confident that that was managed well and effectively ? kirsty williams am: i think it was managed well , and we were very clear to recognise success where success has been achieved , but not to gloss over where the programme had not made an impact , because that would n't be good for anybody . there was a formal event to close the programme , which gave everybody an opportunity to get together , to be formally thanked , and for , as i said , congratulations to be given to those people who had really made a difference and , crucially , key staff transferred over into the regional consortia . so , for those individuals , they were able to continue their work , but just be able to apply that work on a regional basis rather than just in an individual school . so , i do n't see that there was any fading out , but there was a transition into a new system , and many of those key personnel transitioned into the system with us . lynne neagle am: have you got any figures for the numbers of staff who went from the programme into the consortia ? kirsty williams am: not off the top of my head , but i can let you know . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got darren first , then mark . kirsty williams am: and can i just say , i met with some of them ? i met with a selection of those people who had been involved in the programme to get their feedback on what they felt had gone right , and what they did n't feel had gone right in the programme . so , i took the time not just to meet the figurehead of the programme , but actually to meet the people who were doing the work in the individual schools . sorry . darren millar am: yes , i just wanted to ask you , you mentioned the figurehead there , i assume by 'the figurehead ' you mean professor ainscow . and you 've mentioned as well that you said you wanted to learn lessons from schools challenge cymru , but he told us that nobody had been in touch with him since march of last year in order to have any sort of follow-up engagement , or to have a dialogue about his perspective on what worked , what did n't work , why there were failures in some areas and why there were successes in others . why have n't you sought that level of engagement with the person who was responsible for running the programme ? kirsty williams am: i 've had that conversation with mr ainscow . we had the evaluation of the programme . we 've spoken to the people who were actually involved in running the programme on a daily basis in individual schools . we 've spoken to the regional consortia . we 've spoken to local education authorities . we 've spoken to a wide variety of people to get their insight into the lessons learned , what was valuable and what was not valuable . so , a wide variety of people have been involved in those conversations . darren millar am: but you 've hardly engaged with mr ainscow—with professor ainscow himself . steve davies: i would actually say that i have had meetings— darren millar am: since march of last year . steve davies: yes , since march of last year . i have n't got the exact dates for you . i 've had discussions with mel ainscow , and my line manager at the time , owen evans , also had meetings and discussions . darren millar am: so , when he told us , 'since last march , i literally have had no contact at all with anybody from welsh government ' , he was telling porky pies , was he ? steve davies: that 's not my recollection . i 'll go back and check for you . lynne neagle am: if you could check and let us know , that would be good . mark . kirsty williams am: yes , well , i just talked about the celebration event to formally mark the end of the programme . my understanding was that it was july of last year , so people were engaged in that . and this idea that somebody has been ignored or frozen out is not how i see or how i regard that situation . lynne neagle am: mark . mark reckless am: i have to say , with professor ainscow my impression was he took great , great pride in the work that he 'd done with schools challenge cymru , and i think he really enjoyed the engagement , the work and the positive relations with the welsh government . but i think there was just a degree of disappointment , perhaps , that at least he did n't feel that he 'd been interrogated as much as he might have been about the lessons learned from the programme , and how perhaps to entrench those as well as possible with the regional consortia . i just wonder , cabinet secretary , if you could invite the professor in , perhaps to have a further debrief with you and take account of some of his thoughts and suggestions for what might help in this area . kirsty williams am: well , mark , as i said , i just do n't think it should be right to characterise this as a failure to engage with a single individual . mark reckless am: i 'm not characterising it that way , cabinet secretary . kirsty williams am: as i said , i met with him , steve has met with him , owen evans has met with him , my special policy adviser has met with him and had discussions . so , there has been an ongoing dialogue . but , mark , i hope that i have demonstrated since i took on this job that i am willing to work with a wide variety of people and to tap into their expertise if it can help me to deliver on the national mission . and if the advice to me is that we have n't sufficiently learnt the lessons , then i 'll gladly have another conversation . what i 'm saying to you—and i 'm absolutely confident—is that we have learnt the lessons , we are taking that work and the good practice forward , and we have done that with conversations with a wide variety of people who had a view on this , from individual schools that were involved in the programme , individual people who were working in those schools , local education authorities , some of which have been very scathing about the programme , i should say , regional consortia— . so , the lessons , i am confident , have been learnt . mark reckless am: i 'm glad to hear that , cabinet secretary , but i still say that , listening to professor ainscow 's evidence , there was a perception , at least from him individually , that the programme should not be seen to be a failure , but a desire that the lessons should be learnt and a feeling or exception , at least on his part , that there was more that he still had to contribute to the process . and just to take one particular example , i think he referred to the schools challenge cymru advisers being very successful in bringing in people who might not otherwise have contributed to this , and the regional consortia have had greater challenges in recruiting people , perhaps in some areas , of the same high standard of some particular individuals , but also from a wide range of different areas that the schools challenge cymru do , and that there could be more to learn in that area as to how to support real excellence and a greater diversity of recruitment for those people . is that something you could perhaps draw on his thoughts further about ? because i think he does feel that he has more to say to welsh government to help in this area . kirsty williams am: firstly , can i say that i have never described the programme as a failure ? i would understand , as someone who has put so much personal investment into the brand of schools challenges , that he would not want anybody to characterise that particular approach to school improvement as a failure . and i want to be absolutely clear that i have never described the programme as a failure , and i want to reassure mr ainscow of that . as i 've said , gosh , my goodness me , if you saw my e-mail inbox and you saw the letters that come in , people are never shy in coming forward to give me advice on what i need to do , what i need to do next , what i 'm doing right , what i 'm doing wrong , and , you know , our doors are always open to listen to people who have interesting things to say about how we can deliver our educational mission . so , people are n't slow in coming forward , i can assure you , with advice . lynne neagle am: julie . julie morgan am: just very quickly . i 'm sure the minister is aware that cardiff put extra funds of its own in to continue schools challenge cymru advisers . so , obviously , they appreciated the value of the scheme , but it does query whether it should have gone on longer . kirsty williams am: julie , i think , to be fair , there are some people who think the scheme was absolutely fantastic . i 've had feedback from people who did n't think the scheme was helpful at all—in fact , they felt it was a hindrance . i 'm very much of the view that the scheme worked really well for some schools in some areas and had less impact in some areas . there is a mixed picture . what 's important to me is that we understand what it was that led those schools to make those big changes , how we can—like mark talked about , the expertise—how we can keep that expertise in the system , and how we can apply the lessons to all schools . lynne neagle am: the next questions , and the final questions , are from john . so , we 're going to need succinct questions and succinct answers . john griffiths am: some questions on regional consortia , cabinet secretary , and , first of all , the role that you believe they should play and how schools use pdg . kirsty williams am: well , it 's an absolute— . it 's one of the things that i have been very clear to the regional consortia that i expect their challenge and support advisers to be asking schools about . so , one of the conversations that they need to have when they are in schools is exploring , with that school , how they are using their pdg , and how they 're demonstrating an impact for those resources . so , it 's a fundamental role for the challenge and support advisers in the regional consortia in their school improvement work . it 's crucial . john griffiths am: that sort of brings to mind some of the research that 's been done on the role of the challenge advisers , cabinet secretary , which suggested that they 're not actually challenging schools in that way , and that there 's very little evidence of schools changing their decisions on the use of pdg as a result of any challenge from those challenge advisers . so , how would you respond to those findings ? kirsty williams am: well , as i said , in my scrutiny of the role and success of our regional consortia , i specifically asked them about free-school-meal performance and the use of pdg within their particular region . i think there is increasing evidence to suggest that good use is being made of that resource , and i think that is being fed back into us . estyn tell us that it 's one of the areas of school expenditure that is closely linked to research and an evidence base . but , clearly , there is more to do , and that 's why we have appointed the new regional advisers for pdg going forward , because we think there can be improvements in how this agenda can be supported at a regional level . john griffiths am: okay . so , you would recognise the findings from that research . kirsty williams am: yes . there 's always more that we can do , and we are strengthening that role by the appointment of the new regional pdg advisers , so that individual school challenge advisers know what they should be looking for , know what they should be doing , and there is a regional approach to good practice . john griffiths am: okay . could you tell the committee , cabinet secretary , how effective you believe the relationship was between the schools challenge cymru programme and the regional consortia 's school improvement functions , and to what extent it varied by region ? kirsty williams am: i think it 's fair to say that , on occasion , i have received feedback that there was a conflict between what was going on at an individual school under the school improvement programme and whether , then , they welcomed support from the regional consortia as part of that . so , in some cases , if we 're being absolutely honest , there could sometimes be tensions between the two , but in most cases , the relationship was very , very positive and there was continuous feedback between the work going on in the schools under the programme and the regional consortia challenge advisers . but i 'm going to be blunt and honest with people—in some cases , it has been reported to me—it 's only anecdotal evidence ; i have n't got hard and fast evidence—that there sometimes was a conflict : 'we 're a school challenge school so we do n't need to participate or listen to any advice that 's coming from the regional consortia . ' or , a local education authority said to me , 'we felt that we could n't get involved in that school anymore because it was part of a different programme . ' those were isolated incidents , and , as i said , it 's only anecdotal feedback . in most cases , the relationship was a very positive one . steve davies: just very quickly , i think that , across the board , it was more complex in the beginning , getting— [ inaudible. ] . but when the programme itself recognised that they needed to work with the regions , and the regions needed to work with them—and i think mel ainscow in his evidence referred to this—it strengthened after some early challenges . i think mel ainscow was working in a number of regions—i ca n't remember which ones—so he 's established relationships— [ interruption . ] sorry ? kirsty williams am: central south . steve davies: central south . he has already been working in that , so i think it possibly had a stronger springboard in terms of the early working . kirsty williams am: because he already had relationships that he had already developed in that particular region . as always , with many of these things , it 's about individuals and relationships . john griffiths am: okay . finally from me , cabinet secretary : in 2015-16 , estyn reported on regional consortia not sufficiently focusing on particular groups of pupils and tracking their outcomes—for example , vulnerable pupils . i just wonder what you are able to tell us in terms of to what extent there has been necessary progress since 2015-16 . kirsty williams am: okay . well , i think it 's important to recognise that all four consortia underwent monitoring visits in the autumn of last year , of 2017 , which were n't reflected in the estyn annual report for 2015-16. estyn , through these 2017 inspections , have said that three out of the four regional consortia are making strong progress in their particular work , and we are continuing , as welsh government , to work with the other regional consortia to address the findings of the estyn report . john griffiths am: and that would include these particular issues . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . the committee probably has n't had an opportunity to see , but , only this morning , estyn has released a report on more able and talented , and has positive things to say in the field of more able and talented , which was being asked about earlier by members—you know , evidence of improved working and support in that particular arena . but , again , we need to ensure a consistency across all the regions , and that the findings of estyn 's most recent reports into regional performance are followed through . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . as we 've got a couple of minutes left , if i can just jump back to the issue of practical uses of the pdg—because it 's the only thing we have n't really covered and it would be good to get on the record—can i ask to what extent you 'd like to see the pdg used to track the progress of eligible pupils ? and the committee 's heard that there are several different tracking systems and tools used by schools . to what extent is that an issue to do with what the welsh government is promoting ? or is it down to consortia or individual schools ? and do you think there needs to be a more centralised push on how the tracking is undertaken ? kirsty williams am: firstly , can i say it 's absolutely crucial that we track performance , absolutely crucial ? that 's the bedrock . we do n't dictate to individual schools the nature of the system that they should employ in their school . there are a number of different programmes that allow schools to do this , but we are absolutely clear , and best practice and evidence shows us , that individual pupil tracking is key and crucial . and , as i said in the beginning , where we were n't tracking pupils at all , initial investment in pdg was used to establish these systems within schools . again , one of the outcomes from the schools challenge review , and one of the lessons learnt , was , again , the importance of individual tracking of pupils throughout their school career . but we do n't dictate a single system . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . kirsty williams am: but the principle is a really important one . lynne neagle am: okay , and you do n't think there 's more scope to look at what the best system is that can be recommended to schools . kirsty williams am: that 's not something we 're actively looking at . i am actively looking at developing a welsh toolkit around good practice , evidence base and research . at the moment we use the sutton trust toolkit , which is fine and excellent , but we are having active discussions about whether we 're in a position , now , to look at developing a suite of a welsh toolkit to support this agenda , and that 's under active consideration . lynne neagle am: okay . well , we 've reached the end of our session . can i thank the cabinet secretary and the officials for attending and for answering such a wide range of questions ? as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you again for coming . kirsty williams am: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: thank you . okay . item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the minister for children and social care on families first funding . paper to note 2 is a letter from the cabinet secretary for education , updating us on the supply teacher issue . paper to note 3—another letter from the cabinet secretary for education , providing further information following our meeting on 15 february . paper to note 4 is a letter from the wjec on availability of textbooks . paper to note 5—a letter from qualifications wales , also on availability of textbooks . and paper to note 6 is a letter from the cabinet secretary for education to the children 's commissioner for wales , following up on the dialogue that they 've been having about our inquiry . are members happy to note those ? thank you . item 4 , then , is for me to propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

according to kirsty williams , she expects their challenge and support advisers to be having conversations that they need to have when they are with that school , to know about how they are using their pdg , and how they 're demonstrating an impact for those resources . it 's a fundamental role for the challenge and support advisers in the regional consortia in their school improvement work .

what does the group think of the extent they 'd like to see the pdg used to track the progress of eligible pupils ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to this morning 's children , young people and education committee . we 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members who are present if they wish to declare any interests ? okay , thank you . item 2 this morning is our final evidence session for our inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams am , cabinet secretary for education ; steve davies , director of the education directorate ; and ruth conway , deputy director , support for learners division . welcome to all of you , and thank you for your attendance and also for the paper that you 've provided in advance . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions , and the first questions are from llyr gruffydd . llyr gruffydd am: bore da . i just want to start by asking some questions around the targeting of the pupil development grant because , clearly , we 've had a lot of evidence around this apparent blurring of eligibility to an extent . i 'm just wondering how comfortable you are that the money is being targeted appropriately because , clearly , it 's being targeted more widely than just those eligible for free school meals , from some of the evidence we 've had , but also that it seems to be predominantly focused on low-attaining frees—pupils who are eligible for free school meals . kirsty williams am: thank you , llyr . i think it 's important to be absolutely clear that when it comes to individual interventions , those individual interventions should only be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals . but in some cases , schools may use their pdg funding to provide a universal intervention , but we would want to—in challenge advisers ' discussions in schools—we 'd want to have evidence that that universal intervention would have a disproportionate effect on the outcomes for children on free school meals . so , for instance , if i give you an example in your own region , llyr : at brynteg county primary school in wrexham , if you look at that primary school in wrexham , their results for free-school-meal children at the end of their primary school period in school are equivalent to their non-free-school-meal counterparts . so , there is no differentiation in those results . one of the things that they 've used their pdg for is to really focus on the concept of growth mindset in school . so , that 's a universal thing that they 've trained all the teachers in , but what we know is that that has a disproportionate effect on those children who are on free school meals . so , if you 're familiar with the concept of a growth mindset , it 's about really challenging learners to think that , ' i can do things . if sometimes i fail , i pick myself up , i 'm more resilient . ' now , that has been , as i said , trained to all the teachers in the school—it 's an ethos for the whole school—but we have seen that the impact on the free-school-meal children has been even greater , and now they 're at the same level . so , that 's the important distinction . individual intervention per child has to be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals , but sometimes a school will employ a whole-school approach to train their staff , for instance , and that , then , has to demonstrate it has a disproportionate effect on free school meals . so , growth mindset ; it may be attachment disorder training for staff , for instance , where we know it 's of benefit to everybody , but will have particular benefits for that cohort of students . with regard to more able and talented , you know , llyr , that this is an area of concern for me , generally , within the welsh education system ; that we 've not been particularly good at identifying , supporting and driving attainment for those children . i 'm absolutely clear that pdg needs to be used for those children who are eligible to drive potential , whatever the potential of that child is , including more able and talented . and again , i 'll give you an example that has been seen as good practice in pembrokeshire : a window on the world bus , again paid for by schools . i do n't know if you 're aware of it . llyr gruffydd am: we 've heard about that . kirsty williams am: oh , you 've heard about it ; well , it 's a really good example the window on the world . and , again , that 's very much targeted at raising aspirations and giving children who are more able and talented , who are eligible for pdg , those experiences , and to really push them . so , yes , i 'm absolutely clear that pdg should n't just be seen to be getting individuals to the average . for those children who are more able and talented , it should be used to support them— llyr gruffydd am: and we all share those aspirations , i 'm sure , and you pointed to examples of good practice , but of course , it 's not universal , is it , so what i 'm asking is : do you think that the guidance is sufficient as it is ? do you think that there 's a great enough awareness of how the pdg should be used at the coalface ? and also , are you confident that consortia and others have the measures in place to be able to demonstrate that it is being used properly ? kirsty williams am: i think , if we look at what estyn has said about pdg , it does actually recognise that the pdg is being used to push more able and talented children , but as always with the system , llyr , it 's whether we can be sure that that is strategic and that it 's happening across all of our schools . so , you're— llyr gruffydd am: but not just in relation to more able and talented , i 'm referring to the eligibility and the targeting . kirsty williams am: oh , the eligibility . you 'll be aware that , on the advice of sir alasdair , we have employed and appointed new pdg regional advisers , and i think their role is going to be absolutely crucial in spreading that good practice across the region , whether that 's use of pdg for more able and talented , or ensuring that pdg is used in the appropriate way . so , that 's there to provide strategic overall advice . and obviously , we have been very clear with regional challenge advisers , in the relationship and the conversations they 're having with individual schools , that they 're really challenging their schools about the use of pdg , not just in terms of targeting , but the programmes , what the money is being spent on , whether there is an evidence base for that and whether we are clear on impact . so , i think the new regional advisers are going to be crucial in enabling us to ensure more consistent practice across the regions . llyr gruffydd am: so , are you content that eligibility for free school meals is the best measure , really , of identifying which pupils to target ? kirsty williams am: llyr , in the absence of anything better . i 'll be the first person to say that maybe it 's not as absolutely focused , but in the absence of anything different to identify a proxy for need , i think it 's probably the best that we 've got at present . and we will continue to have discussions with local government about whether there are different ways . we have to be mindful . some of the policy levers in this area are out of my hands , so if we look at the roll-out of universal credit , for instance , we 've got officials working very hard at the moment to try and understand what universal credit is going to mean and where we are going to be able to identify relative need , going forward . we have n't had any additional resource as a result of this , but we 're very mindful that , potentially , this has an impact , going forward . and , officials are working all of the time , i must say , in conjunction with the department in england , to understand their thinking in this area so that we are in a position to make some decisions about what a notional eligibility for free school meals will look like going forward , but before i make any decisions , i want to assure everybody that there will be a full public consultation on that . llyr gruffydd am: okay . finally for now , on this issue of once a year , in january , if you 're eligible for free school meals , then you 're in that group for that year . we 've had some quite strong evidence about how difficult that makes longer term planning for a number of schools and we 've also been pointed in the direction of what 's happened in england with the ever 6 , and i 'm just wondering whether you 're giving any thought to maybe changing that a little bit . kirsty williams am: well , we 're certainly giving thought to flexibility . in conversations with alasdair , who is our independent adviser on this agenda , and individual schools , we 're actively giving thought to greater flexibility and maybe longer term projections , so that schools know , for a number of years ahead , what their allocation will be . there are advantages to that system , because you could give that flexibility , you could give that long-term approach , but then , how do you make that responsive if a school suddenly has more children ? we do know that , actually , the number of free-school-meal pupils is dropping . but there can be changes , you know , regional working in areas of north wales in tourism , or maybe in other areas at christmas time , parents are able to get a period of work . so , how can we create a more flexible system ? we 're actively looking at that at the moment . i would n't use it as an ever 6 concept , but as an 'ever 2 ' concept . we have looked at ever 6 , and i 'm going to be absolutely blunt with you : to introduce an ever 6 concept for wales would mean in the region of identifying an additional £40 million . i 'm going to be absolutely straight and blunt with you : we 're not in a position at the moment to be able to identify an additional £40 million to introduce an ever 6. but issues around flexibility , certainly , are actively under consideration . in fact , we 'll be having a discussion later on today about decisions , going forward , for the next two years . llyr gruffydd am: thank you . lynne neagle am: darren on this . darren millar am: it 's just a very brief point in response to the £40 million price ticket that you just put on that . that 's , of course , assuming that you maintain the current level of pdg , yes ? so , if you reduced the level of pdg slightly , but made it available to more individuals , if you like , via allocating it in a different way , then that £40 million price ticket would n't be there , would it ? kirsty williams am: i was asked a question about had i ever considered an ever 6. we have looked at that , we 've priced that up . i have to make decisions in the envelope of resources that are available to me . we could , indeed , change the way in which we allocate pdg money , but we have to do it within the envelope that is available to me , over £90 million . that 's a significant level of investment , but , of course , as always , darren , we could cut the amount per pupil , but that might have quite challenging swings in allocations . what we have done—because what i am clear on is that there was evidence to suggest that in the secondary sector , a great deal of pdg was being focused on years 10 and 11 , especially year 11 , in catch-up provision , and you 'll be aware , because we 've said this in evidence to the committee in the papers , we 've set a challenge to secondary schools to say , 'actually , the majority of your pdg allocation has to be used in key stage 3 . ' now , we have to balance the needs , the moral hazard of turning round to children in years 10 and 11 and saying , 'we're not going to provide catch-up opportunities for you , ' because , clearly , those children need that support . but the evidence and the advice that we 're receiving is : actually , strong focus on early years , primary and key stage 3 , if we get that right , should negate the need for spending money on catch-up at years 10 and 11. that 's why we , in our advice to local authorities and schools , say that we want to see evidence that they 're spending this money earlier on in a child 's career , rather than just a scramble at year 11 to say , 'right , we 've got to get you through your exams . ' darren millar am: okay , but have you actively considered , then , reducing the level you have ? kirsty williams am: we've— ruth conway: sorry—i was just going to say that one of the things is looking at the scope of the definition , and i think it 's about being more flexible with the definition , rather than reducing the amount per head . darren millar am: okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: thank you . if we can go on , then , to talk about some of the practical uses of the pdg , you write in your written paper that 'the majority of schools are making well thought out and appropriate decisions ' on how to use it . but estyn reported that only two thirds of primary and secondary schools make effective use of the pdg . given that we 've had it now for six years , would you not have expected there to be a higher level of schools actually making good use of that funding ? kirsty williams am: well , to flip it on its head , the vast majority of schools , as identified by estyn , are using this money to good effect . so , that 's the way i like to see it—that the vast majority of schools are doing well . what estyn has also indicated is the intrinsic link here to leadership within individual schools , and as you 'll be aware , leadership , improving capacity in leadership and developing leadership talent in the welsh education system is a key priority for me in our national mission . of course , that 's being developed in a different work stream . i think what 's fair to say is that the use of pdg is evolving over time . i think we are seeing , increasingly , more and more schools understanding how best to deploy that money for best effect for students . so , if we 're honest , when pdg first started , i think , in some schools it was spent on investing in tracking of children , because they 'd never thought about tracking these children , they did n't have systems in place to look at the performance of these children , and to have a system in place . so we 've moved now from spending money on the infrastructure around support for fsm children into actual inputs in terms of teaching and learning . we 're also seeing from estyn that , actually , in terms of money following the evidence of what we know works , estyn says that pdg is probably the best example of schools following tried and tested and evidence-based interventions to deploy the money . but clearly we want all of this money to be deployed as well as it can be , and again we come back to the decision i 've made to appoint regional pdg advisers so that we can get that better consistency of approach . we are , in the discussions that i have with the regional consortia about how they challenge individual schools on usage , looking for very clear evidence of schools using the sutton trust toolkit , and we could have a discussion about whether that 's the right thing , because that 's on my mind too . but we want to see schools demonstrating their evidence base , and if they 're not , if a school is n't doing that , okay , so demonstrate to us why you 've made those decisions and , crucially , what are you doing as the school to judge whether that decision is actually making a difference for your individual pupils . so , if you 're moving away from tried and tested interventions , what we know works , if you 're doing something different with your money , okay , you need to justify that and you need to explain how you 're going to demonstrate impact . but i think what we 're seeing is increasing good practice in this area as the pdg develops and as our understanding of our school-to-school working in our self-improving school system also develops . i think we 're seeing better usage of the money year on year . lynne neagle am: thank you . llyr on this . llyr gruffydd am: you mentioned some schools will be moving from the tried-and-tested interventions , really , and i 'm just wondering to what extent that evolution of use of pdg is being driven by cuts to core funding . kirsty williams am: no , i do n't think it 's being driven by cuts to core funding . i think there has been— . one of the biggest impacts of pdg has not been—well , i suppose it is the money in itself , because the money has concentrated the minds , has n't it ? so , one of the most important things that pdg has done is highlight the importance of this agenda within schools , and really raise this up in the thinking of leadership and senior management teams in our schools , and has driven a focus on scrutiny and accountability in the systems that are working with our schools . i think the changing use of pdg reflects the journeys that schools have been on , some of them from a very low base where this was not a priority for them , to better understanding , and as research and as intelligence grows over time in this area , both in wales and outside of wales , schools are increasingly learning to use that evidence to tailor approaches in their schools . llyr gruffydd am: so you would n't accept at all that some of this money 's being used to paper over some funding cracks from elsewhere . because the unions and some others have told us that , whether we like it or not , there is some of that going on . kirsty williams am: as i said , llyr , we 're very clear about the usage that this money can be spent on in terms of individuals or universal application within schools , and that forms an important part of the checks and balances that we have in our system . can we continue to improve , and ensure that more and more of our schools are employing best practice ? yes , we can , and as i 've said , we 've taken steps to put in place the infrastructure to support that . lynne neagle am: thank you . mark 's questions are next . mark reckless am: cabinet secretary , how would you assess the impact of pdg on attendance and hopefully subsequent engagement with education from children who have free school meals ? kirsty williams am: i think what 's important to note is that , as estyn have themselves said , over the period of the last inspection report , we have seen improvements in attendance , but i do think we need to , again , look at how pdg can support this particular agenda . and as always in the welsh education system , there are some excellent examples of how schools use the money to address this . ysgol y preseli in pembrokeshire is a very good example of how they 've deployed their money . forgive me ; i ca n't off the top of my head remember the name of the primary school i visited , again in north wales , where the school has proactively used this money , and they actually send teaching assistants out of school in the morning before the start of the school day , and they actually have a walking bus . they call at homes for children , and they walk the children to the breakfast club . so , they 're proactively going out into the community and making sure that those children are in the classrooms , because the teacher said , 'we recognised we had a problem with attendance . we tried a variety of means of improving that , but in the end we have taken this quite bold step—we actually send the staff out and they create that walking bus , and they walk the children into school ' . they say that they know that , for some of those children , because of the difficult circumstances they and their families are living in , they probably would n't be in school if it was n't for that proactive approach . so , we 're looking again at what more we can do to support this particular agenda in terms of improving attendance , because although , again , there are examples of good practice , there is still a gap between the attendance of free-school-meal pupils and non-free-school-meal pupils . and , of course , we can have the best curriculum in the world with really high-quality teaching , but unless the children are in the classes then we 're not going to make the difference for them . whilst that differential exists , then it 's going to be hard to close the attainment gap for those children . mark reckless am: i was actually quite shocked just reading in advance of this meeting that the proportion attending 95 per cent or more , who have pretty full attendance , was only 35 per cent for free-school-meal children at level 4 , compared to 60 per cent for non-free-school-meal pupils . it still is an extraordinary difference . my colleague here showed me , i think , last week , a graph showing the link between attendance and attainment , in particular . when people were absent , a lot of the— . as i 'm sure you 're aware , there 's a huge connection . what more can pdg do to deal with it ? in the example you give i can see how a school with an awful lot of free-school-meal children could do that , but a lot of the free-school-meal children are actually in schools that do n't have that high a proportion of free school meals , where it would be much more challenging to bring in that type of initiative . kirsty williams am: yes , indeed , and i think it gets more challenging the older the children get . i think it 's more difficult to find interventions that are successful higher up , so key stage 4. so , you can do a walking bus with little ones , ca n't you , but i do n't suppose your average 15 or 16-year-old is going to take very kindly to that . so , you do need a different approach to that . but again , we see in ysgol y preseli the employment of staff to directly work with families of older children to reinforce the messages around , as you quite rightly say , the linkage between attendance and attainment , and really work with individual families to understand the barriers to attendance : what 's going on in the family that is preventing that child from going to school , and what more can the school do to address those situations . but you 're absolutely right ; there is more that we need to do to address this particular agenda of attainment . i do n't know if there 's anything extra you wanted to add , steve . steve davies: there is also another very good example—and i take what you say about where there are small numbers—but in our secondary schools where there are significant numbers , they 're investing pdg in resources like a school nurse and a school counsellor , not just to work with the children but link to other agencies on whom the children and the families are dependent to support them in terms of working with schools . so , it 's something , particularly in our most challenging areas , where it can not just be delivered within the school . so , good use of that resource is being made to employ people to support them in those wider areas . mark reckless am: thank you . to what extent is pdg also used to seek to reduce the higher rates of exclusion for children entitled to free school meals ? kirsty williams am: so , if we looked at permanent exclusions , there is n't a differential , but if we look at temporary exclusions , there we see there is a disproportionate number of children on free school meals that are subject to those exclusions . again , i think what schools employing best practice understand is that you need a multi-agency approach to supporting that particular child . some of those exclusions can be as a result of the need to address other issues going on in a child 's life . so , this is where we come back to the committee 's work , for instance , on mental health and support for children , support for behaviour in school . so , again , it 's a multi-agency approach that i think we need , and , in our good schools , our really , really good schools , there 's a recognition of that need to have a whole team around a child to support that child in education . with eotas , we made some changes last year regarding pdg for eotas . so , for those children who do find themselves in education other than at school , we are providing additional support that previously was not available . mark reckless am: thank you . lynne neagle am: okay . we 're going to move on now to talk about the impact of pdg on attainment . hefin david has got some questions . hefin david am: it appears that the attainment gap at 2017 has actually widened , in spite of pdg levels . is that correct ? kirsty williams am: yes . so , if you look at it—with the usual caveats about whether you can make direct comparisons on level 2 plus between the exams the year before and the exams that we had last summer—on the face of it , the gap has increased . i think what 's important to recognise , hefin , is a direction of travel . i 'm sure we all want to , because i want to , have a discussion about why children on free school meals were less resilient in the exam system last year . but , if we look at the period that we have been employing pdg , over that period , we have seen a narrowing of the gap . i think what 's quite stark , if we think about it— . so , if we look at where we started from : in 2009 , one in five children on free school meals got level 2 plus—one in five—by 2016 , we had got that down to one in three . obviously , there 's still a way to go , but , sir alasdair , who knows about these things , says that that is a significant improvement . last year , we got some challenges . we need to understand why that happened , but i do think it's— hefin david am: why , do you think ? kirsty williams am: why , do i think ? what i do think is there is no one answer . there is no one answer to this . i think we could look at and we can have discussions around the move from btec to science gcses . i think we have supplied figures to the committee about the significant change in the number of children on free school meals who were n't doing a single science gcse and are now doing science gcses . we can look at the unintended consequences of literature . again , we 've supplied figures . where children have done language and literature , whether that be through the medium of english or through the medium of welsh , there is more resilience . so , it 's that exposure to literacy in all its forms that i think could potentially make a difference . so , i think there 's no one answer to why free-school-meal children were not so resilient last year . we continue to have discussions with qualifications wales to get a better understanding of this . at my next ministerial policy board , in may , we 'll be doing a deep dive into this particular subject . hefin david am: so , to what extent would exam boards be responsible for lack of grade stability ? kirsty williams am: it could be one of the contributory factors . what i think is important is that there is no one , single reason why there seems to be less resilience in this cohort of children . hefin david am: will you be speaking to the exam boards about this and raising concerns ? kirsty williams am: i have written to qualifications wales , we 've had discussions about it , but i 've asked them to formally submit evidence ahead of my policy board for may , where , as i said , we will be doing a formal , deep-dive discussion across the department about these issues . but , again , hefin , what we 've got to be clear on is—while we look at overall factors , you know , our overall national statistic—we did see some schools last year whose fsm performance was better than it had been the year before . so , what was it in those schools that enabled those children to do really well , whereas , in other schools , the performance was different ? even in individual cities , you can see a huge variety of performance . so , take cardiff and swansea , our two biggest cities . you 've got schools in those cities with comparative levels of free school meals . so , you could have really high-performing schools with a very small number of the cohort on free school meals . the difference between those performances in a single city—so , that 's the same local education authority and the same regional consortium—you can see a massive change . there 's one school i can talk to : their free-school-meal performance is 88 per cent . a similar school in the same city with the same proportion of children on free school meals , their performance is down in the 20 per cents . so , i think what 's important is that we ca n't draw broad-brush conclusions . for me , the challenge is to go into individual schools and understand what was happening in that particular school that ensured that their children did really well . we 've got one school in swansea , their fsm performance at gcse level 2 outperforms non-fsm pupils . hefin david am: but we still need to rely on the trends from a distance . if we take your argument that 2017 was an unusual year and the trends up to 2016 were positive , in a few years ' time , when we will be looking back in two years ' time , how are we going to measure this progress , say , in 2019 ? what are we likely to see and what methods are you going to use to measure progress that way ? kirsty williams am: well , you 'll be aware that we are moving away from level 2 plus as a performance measure anyway because of the— hefin david am: so , what performance measures will you use ? kirsty williams am: so , for the lack of sophistication around the level 2 plus , and for the unintended behaviours that that particular performance measure has driven within our schools . i 'll be making a statement shortly to the assembly around a new performance measure for schools . we were , at our most recent secondary heads conference , working with schools to develop that . what 's important to me is that we have a more sophisticated model that looks at school performance for all children . what level 2 plus does is narrow , very much , the focus of schools on an individual part of the cohort , usually the c/d borderline , which is why then we have problems with the number of students getting a b grade or above . we have marked success in our schools by saying to schools that a c is good enough . well , if a child gets a c but came to you in year 7 and they were destined to get an e , yes , indeed , a c is a success , because you 've moved that child on ; but , if that child came to you destined to get an a * and gets a c , then we have n't done a good job by that particular child . so , we need a performance measure that is much more sophisticated , looks at each individual child , tracks that progress , and measures the value added by that school in performance . hefin david am: last question : therefore , should we have confidence in the data up to 2016 ? is there a lack of confidence in that data ? kirsty williams am: no , it 's not a lack of confidence in the data . the data is the data . what i 'm saying is , using that as a performance measure and an accountability measure within our school system may have been right for the time . i think it is now right to have a different way of measuring success in schools . i think that particular set of performance measures has driven certain behaviours—not because ministers wanted that to happen , but as an unintended consequence . i think we can work together with our school system , learning the lessons of international best practice , to develop much more sophisticated accountability and performance measures for individual schools , and , i should say , for the government . so , you will be aware of my intention to issue the first national report card on government performance later on this year . so , this is not about trying to avoid scrutiny . it 's about trying to develop a more sophisticated way , which is in line with our national mission , where every child 's education is valued , and where the impact of the school can be tracked more effectively . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . can i just ask , cabinet secretary , are you still holding on to your target of 37 per cent of free-school-meal pupils achieving the level 2 threshold ? kirsty williams am: well , we 're moving away from the level 2 threshold . so , that 's the first thing to say . so , we will want to develop a new suite , in line with our new accountability measures , as we go forward . so , we will be absolutely continuing to track and evaluate the performance of free-school-meal pupils . when we announce our new accountability measures , i will be in a position to address how we 'll measure the government's performance , and national performance , going forward . but , given the fact that we 're moving away from level 2 plus , then we will need a different set of performance indicators . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . the next questions are on looked-after children and adopted children , and i 've got questions from michelle then mark . michelle brown am: thank you . good morning— mark reckless am: i was to come in first , i think . i was about to ask about icf consulting . lynne neagle am: go on then . mark reckless am: i think my questions are first , but , michelle , please do correct me if you were planning to come in before . the pdg for looked-after children does n't quite seem to have the degree of visibility as the pdg for the free-school-meals . i think we had the mori/wiserd survey—only 15 per cent of primary schools and 23 per cent of secondary schools were aware that pdg was targeted at looked-after children . i just wonder—can you clarify on the record here what is the role of schools with pdg for looked-after children as compared to the regional consortia in this field ? kirsty williams am: okay . i think it is absolutely fair to say that most awareness around pdg is around free school meals . there is less awareness around the availability of pdg to support looked-after children . i think that 's probably in the nature of the cohort , so , there are more children subject to free school meals than are subject to being looked after . so , i think that 's part of the explanation . a decision was taken in 2015 to regionalise pdg for looked-after children . my understanding was that the thinking behind that at the time was around a greater strategic deployment of that resource and to try and drive a greater impact than how it was being used previously . so , looked-after pdg is held at a regional level . we have looked-after children pdg co-ordinators—they 're in their second year this year—to look at a regional deployment of that resource . and that resource can be done in a variety of ways , through individual allocation to a school to support an individual child , through to capacity building for the whole system . so , for instance , if i give you an example , in carmarthenshire , there 's been a big emphasis on attachment disorder and training teachers with regard to the impact of attachment disorder . carmarthenshire happens to be one of those local authorities that does quite well in terms of attainment for looked-after children . but , clearly , i have—not concerns . 'concerns ' is n't the right word . but i have asked officials to give greater scrutiny to how that resource has been used in the last year . steve , on my behalf , wrote out to the system , setting out our expectations , but also advising them of the fact we will be asking very detailed questions of accountability for that money . so , what has that money been used on and how can you account for the effect ? but , steve , maybe you can give some greater detail . steve davies: i think the challenge that— . one of the rationales for shifting—not that all the money stays in the region , but having a regional strategic support—was that , historically , the money was going directly with that child to the school . given the quite often rapid turnover of children in schools—the very nature of looked-after children is they do sometimes move through foster parents—historically , what happened , the money lands in the school , because , at that time in the year , when it 's measured , the school gets the money and can spend it on some additional support for staff , but quite often that child moves on to another school and the money does n't transfer . some schools will go through quite a number of years without having a looked-after child and will not think strategically , 'how do i need to support them ? ' so , that was the rationale of the shift . in terms of the implementation of the regional allocation , as of this financial year finishing , we are going into local authorities and regions to evaluate where they 've located the resource , what the impact of that resource has been , so that is reinforced and shared more widely . kirsty williams am: and then , to reassure , it 's not just internally that we 're looking at this . we have a contract with an external agency to do an evaluation— mark reckless am: that 's icf consulting . kirsty williams am: yes . yes , so that was done in the autumn of last year , because , as i said , we had concerns about whether this was really having the effect that was intended . so , my expectation is that we will be in a position to receive that report later on this spring , and of course it would be my intention that that report would be made public for people to have a look at what— mark reckless am: that was commissioned last autumn— kirsty williams am: yes , in november 2017 . mark reckless am: november 2017 . kirsty williams am: so , i 'm hoping to have that published before the summer recess . i 'm very reluctant to say months ; i 've learnt not to say months , because they move . lynne neagle am: i 'm going to go to michelle now , mark , because— mark reckless am: sure . i will come back in if i have anything further to ask here after michelle . lynne neagle am: —both of you asked for these questions , and that 's what the pre-meeting is for . mark reckless am: michelle , i defer to you . lynne neagle am: michelle . michelle brown am: okay , thank you . would you be open , cabinet secretary , to the idea of adjusting the eligibility of the pdg so that pupils who have been looked after or adopted at any point within a previous given period of time would attract the pdg , rather than only if they 're looked-after on a one-off date ? kirsty williams am: as i said earlier , in questions from , i think it was , llyr , who was talking about concepts of concepts of ever 6 , we are constantly looking at how we can get that balance between focus and flexibility for this resource . llyr opened with the question of , 'how can you absolutely ensure that these children are getting the money ? ' , but then there 's also a tension about how can you create some flexibility around the school 's usage of the grant . so , we will look at that . i think there is the issue of where a school would know of a child that was looked after . issues around adoption are slightly more sensitive , because we could n't force a family to tell a school that their child was an adopted child . so , a family may be very open and very keen to explain that to a school , but we ca n't necessarily track as closely children who have been adopted , especially if that adoption happens before the child goes to school . we ca n't be in a position of forcing families to disclose this information if they do n't want to , but we certainly can , as i say , look to strengthen our monitoring arrangements around pdg support for looked-after children and the impact that that 's having . i just think we need to be a bit mindful of people 's privacy in some instances . if they do n't want to divulge that , it would n't be my job to tell a family , 'you have to let us know if your child is adopted . ' lynne neagle am: michelle . michelle brown am: fair enough ; thank you for that answer . the eas consortium 's approach to using the looked-after and adopted pdg is to use it as part of a broader approach targeted at vulnerable learners in general . what are your views on that approach ? kirsty williams am: i 'm a great believer in if we can get it right for our most vulnerable learners , we 'll be getting it right for all of our learners . i gave the example earlier , for instance , of attachment disorder , and , chair , you will know that i have had conversations . one of the emerging themes for me , as i go around visiting schools , is the impact and the growing awareness and the growing numbers of children who have attachment disorder , and how schools are best able to respond to that in their children . so , for instance , as i said about carmarthenshire , there 's been a huge effort to address that in the school sector in carmarthenshire . now , that has a disproportionate benefit for those children , because you 're more likely to see attachment disorder in children who are care experienced , because of the nature of the lives that those children have lived , but that does n't necessarily mean that attachment disorder is exclusively found in those children that are looked after . it can be found in other families as well . so , that vulnerable learner , regardless of their background , will benefit from having teachers who are better trained , understanding and have intervention strategies in place to be able to address that need . steve davies: i think it 's also important to add that this is not one region 's approach ; this is across four regions , so the others— . for example , erw have run a significant programme looking at the impact of adverse childhood experiences on pupils , which has enabled teachers to detect some of the impact of some of those and then considers some of the work they need to do within the school but also with other agencies . so , it is something that's applied consistently across the four regions . kirsty williams am: i was in pil primary school recently where they use their pdg , both fsm pdg , and no doubt an element of pdg for looked-after , for nurture groups . so , for those children who really , really find it very difficult to be in the main classroom , they can have that nurture group experience to address issues around emotional behaviour , feelings , and it gets them in a position where they are able then to join the main classroom because issues around behaviour have been addressed and they 're in a better position to learn . so , again , this is an example of how vulnerable learners in the wider sense can benefit . lynne neagle am: okay . mark , did you have anything you wanted to ask ? mark reckless am: yes . can i follow up on tracking adopted children ? i entirely understand that you ca n't force parents to disclose that their child is adopted . however , my understanding was that , in england , there was a dataset with social services that was shared with schools in a way that i 'm not clear is happening in wales and how , if at all , that links to the pupil level annual school census data . perhaps sort of linked to that , is n't there an argument for making the parents of adopted children in the schools , potentially , with adopted children more aware that adopted children who were previously looked after have this potential grant , and would they not be more willing to disclose this , at least confidentially to the school and government , if they knew there was this upside of doing so ? kirsty williams am: we 're actively looking at whether we should try and find a way of collecting this data , with the caveats that i just gave earlier . we ca n't force parents to divulge information that is a matter for them , nor would i want to . but there is an active discussion going on at the moment about whether we could create a dataset where people divulge this information and we can then track the children through . you 're absolutely right . one of the ways in which we can often encourage take-up , for instance , of free school meals , especially in those communities where there is a sense of reluctance to apply for support—even though people are entitled to it , there 's a reluctance to do it ; sometimes we see this in rural areas— . actually , appealing to the parents by saying , 'actually , this will mean more money for your child 's school budget' is a much more compelling reason why people will apply for it then saying , 'actually , it 's going to help you ' , because they do n't want to be seen being dependent , they do n't want to be seen being helped . but , if you say to them , 'actually , do you know that this means more money for your child 's school ? ' , they go , 'oh , all right then , i 'll fill in the forms now . ' so , you 're right , i think there is something that we could do to make parents understand , in the round , that this has an impact . but we are actively looking at and discussing whether we could create a dataset around adopted children and how we can do that in line with data protection and data sharing . one of the things i am concerned about in the performance of looked-after children generally is how we can , across government , work more closely together . we ca n't see the educational attainment of looked-after children just being a job of education . it 's got to be a job of social services and the health service as well . there 's got to be a joined-up approach to doing that . now , officials were at the ministerial advisory group that 's chaired by david melding on prospects for looked-after children . they were there at the group last week . david tells me that the paper was very positively received by the group . i will be sitting down with david melding to talk through what more we can do on the education side . i think there 's really an appetite between me and the minister for children to get a closer working relationship on this . we ca n't expect schools to do it on their own and alone . and there are things that we can do out there in local authorities to help improve outcomes . it 's not just about the pdg ; it is about , when social services are thinking about a placement , where does the discussion about where children are going to go to school—when does that take place ? do we talk about the placement , move a child and then think , 'oh my goodness me , what are we going to do about the schooling ? ' if you can imagine , the school could have been working really , really hard with a pupil to get them in a good place , to get them being able to access the curriculum , and then social services decide that the placement is being changed . so , we potentially lose all of that . so , a greater involvement in education and better linked-up working in local authorities will help us with this . it ca n't be just the job of the pdg . if we think we can crack this with just pdg , then we 're being delusional . it has to be a cross-government approach at a national level , and at a local government level as well , to get this right . sometimes , data protection—how can we break down some of these barriers between , you know , the school does n't need to , schools should n't see , the entire social services report ? well , maybe the school does need to see some of that background information if they 're going to have an impact for that child . so , there 's more work to do , but it can not be just the job of education on its own if we 're going to make a difference , nor can it just be the job of the pdg to make a difference for those children . lynne neagle am: thank you . julie 's got some more questions on the impact on adopted and looked-after children . julie morgan am: yes , before i go on to those , i just wanted to support , really , what mark was saying about adopted children and how important it is , i think , that the adoptive parents feel able to speak to the school and to give information . because certainly any evidence we 've had from adoptive parents , and generally knowing about what adoptive parents do feel , is that they often feel that there 's a degree of a lack of sensitivity in the school about the issues of adoption . i would certainly support some move towards ensuring that the atmosphere was open in a way that would encourage them to realise that it would be a help for the children if there was an awareness in the school . so , i just wanted to really reinforce that . kirsty williams am: yes , and that would chime with what i hear from many adoptive parents . i 'm just trying to be sensitive by saying we ca n't force people to divulge this information if they do n't want to . julie morgan am: no , but they need to be given the opportunity . kirsty williams am: yes , you 're right . we need to make sure that those parents feel that they can discuss this with school leaders and classroom teachers and explore how best those individual children can be supported , and how best we can support parents . because , again—and i 've said this a lot—after the quality of teaching , the second biggest impact on a child 's educational outcome will be parental engagement . so , being able to create an environment where adoptive parents feel very confident and able to talk about their children 's education is absolutely crucial if we 're going to get that parental engagement that we need for all of our children . julie morgan am: yes . thank you . going on to looked-after children , you say that the latest data on looked-after children 's attainment is extremely disappointing . can you expand on that and what effect the pdg has had in this result , or not had ? kirsty williams am: well , there 's no getting away from it : the way in which we currently measure outcomes for looked-after children , the results are not good enough . it 's a source of huge concern to me that we need to do better for those children . that 's why officials are engaging with the group that david melding is chairing , to make sure that education is integral to that group and it 's not lost sight of . there 's a discussion to be had about the cohort , whether it 's right and correct to compare looked-after children to the main cohort , or whether these statistics are useful in any way . sometimes as well—this is not to make an excuse because , as i 've said in my paper , it 's extremely disappointing , but sometimes it can be really difficult . because the cohort sometimes can be very , very small , it can swing the statistics to look perhaps more dramatic . julie morgan am: i think , generally , when you look at how looked-after children do— kirsty williams am: it 's not good . julie morgan am: —in a much wider evaluation , they 're not doing well , are they ? kirsty williams am: they 're not doing well . so , that 's why we 've got the review , the independent review , into the impact of the pdg in this area . this is why steve is doing the work that he is doing with the regional consortia because , clearly , at the moment , we are not doing what we need to do for that particular cohort of children . i would not make any bones about that at all . steve davies: i think we will not move away from the fact that these children need good gcses to gain employment , so we 'll continue to measure that . i think we need to look at more nuanced evaluations of the data at a lower level . so , for example , there were significant improvements in terms of pdg pupils who got three and four good gcses but did n't get past the threshold . that 's not to cover anything that is not working in terms of improvement , but we will look at the full range and still hold on to the fact that we have to look at a measure that relates to the likelihood of these children going on to further education and training . julie morgan am: and then just one more question about the exclusion rates amongst looked-after children . they are , i understand , over six times more likely to be given a fixed-term exclusion . so , is there any way of trying to address this ? is the pdg used for anything to do with exclusions ? kirsty williams am: we can look at exclusions . we also have to read across about how the whole system works , not just the pdg element of the system . so , we know , for example , that 66 per cent of looked-after learners have some additional learning need , so we ca n't just look at it in terms of this particular source of funding ; we have to look at it at a wider level of support . so , given that the majority of those children will have an aln , how can we make sure that our new aln legislation and our new aln regime meets the needs of these children ? so , i think what we 're looking at , again , is to say that it ca n't be just the job of the pdg . that 's there as an additional level of support , but actually , we 've got to get our aln right . unless we get our aln right , lots and lots of these children are not going to get the support that they need day in , day out via that system . we do know that sometimes , if we 're not addressing aln , then we 're not addressing behaviour issues that then potentially lead to an expulsion or potentially lead to non-attendance . so , we 've got to look at it in the round and recognise the connections between the sometimes quite complex needs that these children have within the school setting , that are not just as a result of the fact that they 're looked after ; they have other needs as well . steve davies: and investment in well-being— kirsty williams am: absolutely . steve is reminding me that that 's why well-being is part of the national mission—to address issues around supporting children with their well-being , which is a way of keeping them in school . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 're going to move on to schools challenge cymru now . llyr . llyr gruffydd am: thank you , chair . i was just wondering what your assessment is as to why some schools made progress and others did n't . kirsty williams am: i think we have to recognise that the 39 schools that were part of the programme were in very , very different places . so , i think one of the reasons why some schools did well was because their needs were not so complex , not so deep-seated and a certain level of intervention was enough to get them moving forward . some schools had very , very different needs . i think , talking to those involved in the programme , as always , we had some support advisers , challenge advisers working with those schools as part of the programme who were really , really excellent and really good , and were the right fit for the school and really drove the school onwards . we had other people employed in the programme who , perhaps , were less effective at driving change within those individual schools . so , what we have is a mixed bag of performance , again reflecting the very different challenges that those schools were facing , which led them to be chosen for the programme in the first place . llyr gruffydd am: yes , okay— steve davies: sorry . one of the other key additional factors was the extent to which there had been recent appointment of a new headteacher to that school just before the programme had started , because— kirsty williams am: leadership is all . llyr gruffydd am: and that was seen as a positive . steve davies: a positive , yes . i think one of the challenges is that sometimes the time it takes to make changes in leadership can be protracted and can be a barrier , sometimes , to the speed with which you can move . but , for a significant minority of the schools , there had been recent new appointments of headteachers , which was seen to be contributing , when you looked at the evaluation , to the speed with which they were able to engage . llyr gruffydd am: the reason i was asking was i wanted to understand what lessons the government is taking from that three-year investment , really , and how , maybe , you 're applying some of those lessons to your wider school improvement programme . i know professor mel ainscow identified six interconnected lessons , although i also note that the cabinet secretary did n't actually meet him for about six or seven months after coming into post . so , i 'm just wondering , can you give us confidence that , actually , you are serious about taking lessons from schools challenge cymru and applying them to the wider school improvement agenda ? kirsty williams am: well , absolutely , llyr . i do n't think anything should be read into when i met the individual concerned , because officials were meeting the individual concerned . individual challenge advisers were meeting with the regions , there was crossover work with the fsm agenda as well , and we are absolutely determined that best practice and those interventions that drove school improvement are embedded in the new support that we have via the regional consortia . it 's no coincidence that some of the best people that were employed by schools challenge cymru are now in the employment of our regional consortia . so , those people that were really good and really made a difference do n't work for the schools challenge cymru scheme any more , they work for our regional school improvement services . so , we 're absolutely determined . the things that we have learned , as always , are around leadership . it is absolutely key and crucial to have strong , capable school leadership as a driver for change within the system . we 're looking at systems and processes , so , actually , has a school got in place comprehensive systems of tracking and processes within the school ? we 're looking at the teacher quality—how can we ensure that we have got consistent strategies in place to drive up pedagogy and teacher quality in the classroom ? collaborative activity—again , absolutely key . a school can not see itself in isolation , and one of the key themes of the national mission is a self-improving system , so , collaborative working where schools are looking outside of each other , learning from best practice from other schools . so , there are lots of things that we 've drawn from the evaluation that you will see as key themes running through the national mission , and , as i said , it 's no coincidence that our really good people that were working in schools challenge cymru are now working for the regional consortia , being able to use that expertise not just for a very small proportion of our schools—but that expertise is available to all our schools . llyr gruffydd am: although estyn has told us , of course , that you ca n't expect the consortia to really carry on with that level of intervention and the same kind of intensity as was provided previously , so i 'm just wondering— kirsty williams am: in what way ? llyr gruffydd am: well , we were told by estyn in evidence that they did n't necessarily think that we could expect the consortia to provide the same type of tailored support , and certainly the level of intensity with the improvement boards and everything— kirsty williams am: well , the improvement boards are carrying on , so the improvement boards still exist , and i would—not that i want to argue with estyn— llyr gruffydd am: well , feel free ; this is your opportunity to do so if you— kirsty williams am: what i would say is that those improvement boards are staying on , and our schools categorisation system is used to identify the level of support . now , if you 're a red school , that gives you the entitlement to 25 days of support . that is more than you would have got under the schools challenge cymru programme , which would 've been 20 days . so , actually , moving to this system allows us to really focus in on those schools that need that intensive level of support . and what 's important for me , llyr , in this , okay , is that those schools are not necessarily just the schools that were in the programme . our system now of challenge , advice and support allows us to target resources across all of our schools and across all of our sectors , because you 'll be aware that schools challenge was only available to secondary schools , not available to primary schools . what our system now allows us to do , via the schools categorisation , is to identify schools , wherever they are in wales and whatever sector they 're in , to have that intensive level of support that they need to make improvements . llyr gruffydd am: so , you 're confident that that level of momentum is continuing through the consortia that was previously enjoyed by those particular schools , and you 're also confident that there is minimal risk that they 'll slip back to where they were , potentially , or at least part of the way back . kirsty williams am: well , actually , there are some really good examples of some of the schools challenge cymru schools making that sustained improvement now that the programme has come to an end . you only have to look at tredegar , where we have seen continual improvement and moving up through the categorisation system . that school is now a green school , so they 've been able to sustain their progress at the end of the programme . if we look at armando in eastern high school , again—gosh , my goodness me , we had lots of debates in a previous chamber about the future of eastern . there was one person that said that eastern had to be closed and that the only way forward for that particular school was for it to be shut down , but what we have seen is investment via schools challenge cymru , but ongoing , continual support from the regional consortium , and that school has come out of special measures . i pay absolute tribute to the staff of that school and that community that have done such a good job . so , i 'm absolutely convinced that where we 've got good leadership and good support , some of those schools are making continued , sustained progress even after the end of the programme . the challenge for me is for those schools that schools challenge cymru did n't work for , and we have n't seen that progress—how we can use our school improvement system now to continue to work with those schools to give them the level of support that they need to make a difference . so that 's what my focus is on now : a whole-system approach , rather than choosing 39 schools to get that level of support , when we recognise that there are schools everywhere , potentially , that need intervention , support and challenge , and in the primary sector as well . llyr gruffydd am: okay . so , you would n't agree with a number of—well , the near-unanimous evidence that we 've had from academics , some of whom are government advisers from consortia et cetera , that this kind of programme such as schools challenge cymru would probably need about five years to really have the impact that it was intended to have . kirsty williams am: what i would say is that , from my understanding , from the outset , it was a time-limited programme . the schools were aware of that . there were no surprises that it was supposed to be a time-limited programme . evidence from across the uk showed that school challenge programmes have differed in time . so , for instance , manchester 's challenge was a three-year programme . so , there 's no consensus about how many years you need to run a programme for . the previous minister was quite clear about the time-limited nature of the programme . that 's not to say it was the wrong decision , because what 's important , and an ongoing legacy of the programme , was the investment in regional school improvement capacity , because at the time our school improvement services and the regions were young , in their infancy . the ability of individual local authorities to make a difference , with so many local authorities in an estyn categorisation , was limited , so one of the ongoing legacies of the programme is that significant investment of over £10 million in the capacity of the regions to be able to continue this support and the school improvement work . llyr gruffydd am: so , how disappointed were you that the money for schools challenge cymru went back into reserves and did n't stay in your envelope , as you described it earlier ? i presume you made a pitch for it . did you make a case for that money to stay within your department ? kirsty williams am: llyr , we are constantly having discussions with the minister for finance around support for the education budget . the minister for finance was quite clear that it was a time-limited programme . we were able to secure investment from the finance minister to be able to secure the programme and run it and phase it out to make sure there was transition support , so as we moved from the schools challenge programme into the regional consortia , there were resources to do that . llyr gruffydd am: did you feel there was a case to be made to add to the consortia 's resources and be able to continue that level of support that schools had previously had ? kirsty williams am: well , we did make resources available to the regional consortia to do that . as i say , from the outset , the previous minister was very clear it was a time-limited programme . certainly the schools that i talk to— . and i want to be absolutely clear : i have visited many , many schools challenge cymru schools . i have used that opportunity to talk to them about—heolddu being one of them , hefin , which we went to visit , and willows , for instance . i 'm going to one this afternoon—i 'm going to st illtyd 's this afternoon , and i always take— . i 've been to caergybi in anglesey . i always take the opportunity to speak to those teachers about their experience of the programme and to understand and assure myself that they are getting ongoing support that they see as an appropriate level for them . i think i 've done 19 of the schools . lynne neagle am: hefin on this . hefin david am: with regard to it being a time-limited programme , the previous minister was clear that it was a time-limited programme , but it was n't quite as time-limited as you 've decided to be . is that fair to say ? kirsty williams am: no , it was supposed to be a three-year programme at the most . so , there 's no differential between when i decided it was time-limited and the expectations— hefin david am: so the time limit was the same that the previous minister put on it . kirsty williams am: yes . no change . llyr gruffydd am: but mel ainscow did tell us that there was a fade out in that third year—not that people were giving up , do n't get me wrong , but clearly there was n't that commitment coming from government because the decision had been made , and people felt that it was just fizzling out a little bit , and that impacted on the momentum . kirsty williams am: i would n't characterise it as that . i think there certainly was a transition phase when we knew that the programme was moving and schools were moving into a different level of support , but i certainly would n't describe it as a fading out—not at all . as i said , we were aware that the programme was transitioning and we were determined to get that right for those individual schools , and to learn the lessons and , crucially , to be able to apply those lessons right across the board . steve davies: i can see where the perception would come if a programme director like mel was managing the programme right to the end of the three years exactly the same , and it falls off—not a cliff , but it falls off , then the readiness for schools and the readiness in the system to hand over—so part of the shift of focus was that working as a government with the programme in those schools to working with the programme , those schools and the region . so , i think , inevitably , one party might see it as a decrease in terms of emphasis on their work , but it was necessary for the transition . llyr gruffydd am: but does that cast a bit of a shadow over the transition , then—that one key player within that process felt as such , or are you confident that that was managed well and effectively ? kirsty williams am: i think it was managed well , and we were very clear to recognise success where success has been achieved , but not to gloss over where the programme had not made an impact , because that would n't be good for anybody . there was a formal event to close the programme , which gave everybody an opportunity to get together , to be formally thanked , and for , as i said , congratulations to be given to those people who had really made a difference and , crucially , key staff transferred over into the regional consortia . so , for those individuals , they were able to continue their work , but just be able to apply that work on a regional basis rather than just in an individual school . so , i do n't see that there was any fading out , but there was a transition into a new system , and many of those key personnel transitioned into the system with us . lynne neagle am: have you got any figures for the numbers of staff who went from the programme into the consortia ? kirsty williams am: not off the top of my head , but i can let you know . lynne neagle am: okay . i 've got darren first , then mark . kirsty williams am: and can i just say , i met with some of them ? i met with a selection of those people who had been involved in the programme to get their feedback on what they felt had gone right , and what they did n't feel had gone right in the programme . so , i took the time not just to meet the figurehead of the programme , but actually to meet the people who were doing the work in the individual schools . sorry . darren millar am: yes , i just wanted to ask you , you mentioned the figurehead there , i assume by 'the figurehead ' you mean professor ainscow . and you 've mentioned as well that you said you wanted to learn lessons from schools challenge cymru , but he told us that nobody had been in touch with him since march of last year in order to have any sort of follow-up engagement , or to have a dialogue about his perspective on what worked , what did n't work , why there were failures in some areas and why there were successes in others . why have n't you sought that level of engagement with the person who was responsible for running the programme ? kirsty williams am: i 've had that conversation with mr ainscow . we had the evaluation of the programme . we 've spoken to the people who were actually involved in running the programme on a daily basis in individual schools . we 've spoken to the regional consortia . we 've spoken to local education authorities . we 've spoken to a wide variety of people to get their insight into the lessons learned , what was valuable and what was not valuable . so , a wide variety of people have been involved in those conversations . darren millar am: but you 've hardly engaged with mr ainscow—with professor ainscow himself . steve davies: i would actually say that i have had meetings— darren millar am: since march of last year . steve davies: yes , since march of last year . i have n't got the exact dates for you . i 've had discussions with mel ainscow , and my line manager at the time , owen evans , also had meetings and discussions . darren millar am: so , when he told us , 'since last march , i literally have had no contact at all with anybody from welsh government ' , he was telling porky pies , was he ? steve davies: that 's not my recollection . i 'll go back and check for you . lynne neagle am: if you could check and let us know , that would be good . mark . kirsty williams am: yes , well , i just talked about the celebration event to formally mark the end of the programme . my understanding was that it was july of last year , so people were engaged in that . and this idea that somebody has been ignored or frozen out is not how i see or how i regard that situation . lynne neagle am: mark . mark reckless am: i have to say , with professor ainscow my impression was he took great , great pride in the work that he 'd done with schools challenge cymru , and i think he really enjoyed the engagement , the work and the positive relations with the welsh government . but i think there was just a degree of disappointment , perhaps , that at least he did n't feel that he 'd been interrogated as much as he might have been about the lessons learned from the programme , and how perhaps to entrench those as well as possible with the regional consortia . i just wonder , cabinet secretary , if you could invite the professor in , perhaps to have a further debrief with you and take account of some of his thoughts and suggestions for what might help in this area . kirsty williams am: well , mark , as i said , i just do n't think it should be right to characterise this as a failure to engage with a single individual . mark reckless am: i 'm not characterising it that way , cabinet secretary . kirsty williams am: as i said , i met with him , steve has met with him , owen evans has met with him , my special policy adviser has met with him and had discussions . so , there has been an ongoing dialogue . but , mark , i hope that i have demonstrated since i took on this job that i am willing to work with a wide variety of people and to tap into their expertise if it can help me to deliver on the national mission . and if the advice to me is that we have n't sufficiently learnt the lessons , then i 'll gladly have another conversation . what i 'm saying to you—and i 'm absolutely confident—is that we have learnt the lessons , we are taking that work and the good practice forward , and we have done that with conversations with a wide variety of people who had a view on this , from individual schools that were involved in the programme , individual people who were working in those schools , local education authorities , some of which have been very scathing about the programme , i should say , regional consortia— . so , the lessons , i am confident , have been learnt . mark reckless am: i 'm glad to hear that , cabinet secretary , but i still say that , listening to professor ainscow 's evidence , there was a perception , at least from him individually , that the programme should not be seen to be a failure , but a desire that the lessons should be learnt and a feeling or exception , at least on his part , that there was more that he still had to contribute to the process . and just to take one particular example , i think he referred to the schools challenge cymru advisers being very successful in bringing in people who might not otherwise have contributed to this , and the regional consortia have had greater challenges in recruiting people , perhaps in some areas , of the same high standard of some particular individuals , but also from a wide range of different areas that the schools challenge cymru do , and that there could be more to learn in that area as to how to support real excellence and a greater diversity of recruitment for those people . is that something you could perhaps draw on his thoughts further about ? because i think he does feel that he has more to say to welsh government to help in this area . kirsty williams am: firstly , can i say that i have never described the programme as a failure ? i would understand , as someone who has put so much personal investment into the brand of schools challenges , that he would not want anybody to characterise that particular approach to school improvement as a failure . and i want to be absolutely clear that i have never described the programme as a failure , and i want to reassure mr ainscow of that . as i 've said , gosh , my goodness me , if you saw my e-mail inbox and you saw the letters that come in , people are never shy in coming forward to give me advice on what i need to do , what i need to do next , what i 'm doing right , what i 'm doing wrong , and , you know , our doors are always open to listen to people who have interesting things to say about how we can deliver our educational mission . so , people are n't slow in coming forward , i can assure you , with advice . lynne neagle am: julie . julie morgan am: just very quickly . i 'm sure the minister is aware that cardiff put extra funds of its own in to continue schools challenge cymru advisers . so , obviously , they appreciated the value of the scheme , but it does query whether it should have gone on longer . kirsty williams am: julie , i think , to be fair , there are some people who think the scheme was absolutely fantastic . i 've had feedback from people who did n't think the scheme was helpful at all—in fact , they felt it was a hindrance . i 'm very much of the view that the scheme worked really well for some schools in some areas and had less impact in some areas . there is a mixed picture . what 's important to me is that we understand what it was that led those schools to make those big changes , how we can—like mark talked about , the expertise—how we can keep that expertise in the system , and how we can apply the lessons to all schools . lynne neagle am: the next questions , and the final questions , are from john . so , we 're going to need succinct questions and succinct answers . john griffiths am: some questions on regional consortia , cabinet secretary , and , first of all , the role that you believe they should play and how schools use pdg . kirsty williams am: well , it 's an absolute— . it 's one of the things that i have been very clear to the regional consortia that i expect their challenge and support advisers to be asking schools about . so , one of the conversations that they need to have when they are in schools is exploring , with that school , how they are using their pdg , and how they 're demonstrating an impact for those resources . so , it 's a fundamental role for the challenge and support advisers in the regional consortia in their school improvement work . it 's crucial . john griffiths am: that sort of brings to mind some of the research that 's been done on the role of the challenge advisers , cabinet secretary , which suggested that they 're not actually challenging schools in that way , and that there 's very little evidence of schools changing their decisions on the use of pdg as a result of any challenge from those challenge advisers . so , how would you respond to those findings ? kirsty williams am: well , as i said , in my scrutiny of the role and success of our regional consortia , i specifically asked them about free-school-meal performance and the use of pdg within their particular region . i think there is increasing evidence to suggest that good use is being made of that resource , and i think that is being fed back into us . estyn tell us that it 's one of the areas of school expenditure that is closely linked to research and an evidence base . but , clearly , there is more to do , and that 's why we have appointed the new regional advisers for pdg going forward , because we think there can be improvements in how this agenda can be supported at a regional level . john griffiths am: okay . so , you would recognise the findings from that research . kirsty williams am: yes . there 's always more that we can do , and we are strengthening that role by the appointment of the new regional pdg advisers , so that individual school challenge advisers know what they should be looking for , know what they should be doing , and there is a regional approach to good practice . john griffiths am: okay . could you tell the committee , cabinet secretary , how effective you believe the relationship was between the schools challenge cymru programme and the regional consortia 's school improvement functions , and to what extent it varied by region ? kirsty williams am: i think it 's fair to say that , on occasion , i have received feedback that there was a conflict between what was going on at an individual school under the school improvement programme and whether , then , they welcomed support from the regional consortia as part of that . so , in some cases , if we 're being absolutely honest , there could sometimes be tensions between the two , but in most cases , the relationship was very , very positive and there was continuous feedback between the work going on in the schools under the programme and the regional consortia challenge advisers . but i 'm going to be blunt and honest with people—in some cases , it has been reported to me—it 's only anecdotal evidence ; i have n't got hard and fast evidence—that there sometimes was a conflict : 'we 're a school challenge school so we do n't need to participate or listen to any advice that 's coming from the regional consortia . ' or , a local education authority said to me , 'we felt that we could n't get involved in that school anymore because it was part of a different programme . ' those were isolated incidents , and , as i said , it 's only anecdotal feedback . in most cases , the relationship was a very positive one . steve davies: just very quickly , i think that , across the board , it was more complex in the beginning , getting— [ inaudible. ] . but when the programme itself recognised that they needed to work with the regions , and the regions needed to work with them—and i think mel ainscow in his evidence referred to this—it strengthened after some early challenges . i think mel ainscow was working in a number of regions—i ca n't remember which ones—so he 's established relationships— [ interruption . ] sorry ? kirsty williams am: central south . steve davies: central south . he has already been working in that , so i think it possibly had a stronger springboard in terms of the early working . kirsty williams am: because he already had relationships that he had already developed in that particular region . as always , with many of these things , it 's about individuals and relationships . john griffiths am: okay . finally from me , cabinet secretary : in 2015-16 , estyn reported on regional consortia not sufficiently focusing on particular groups of pupils and tracking their outcomes—for example , vulnerable pupils . i just wonder what you are able to tell us in terms of to what extent there has been necessary progress since 2015-16 . kirsty williams am: okay . well , i think it 's important to recognise that all four consortia underwent monitoring visits in the autumn of last year , of 2017 , which were n't reflected in the estyn annual report for 2015-16. estyn , through these 2017 inspections , have said that three out of the four regional consortia are making strong progress in their particular work , and we are continuing , as welsh government , to work with the other regional consortia to address the findings of the estyn report . john griffiths am: and that would include these particular issues . kirsty williams am: yes , absolutely . the committee probably has n't had an opportunity to see , but , only this morning , estyn has released a report on more able and talented , and has positive things to say in the field of more able and talented , which was being asked about earlier by members—you know , evidence of improved working and support in that particular arena . but , again , we need to ensure a consistency across all the regions , and that the findings of estyn 's most recent reports into regional performance are followed through . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . as we 've got a couple of minutes left , if i can just jump back to the issue of practical uses of the pdg—because it 's the only thing we have n't really covered and it would be good to get on the record—can i ask to what extent you 'd like to see the pdg used to track the progress of eligible pupils ? and the committee 's heard that there are several different tracking systems and tools used by schools . to what extent is that an issue to do with what the welsh government is promoting ? or is it down to consortia or individual schools ? and do you think there needs to be a more centralised push on how the tracking is undertaken ? kirsty williams am: firstly , can i say it 's absolutely crucial that we track performance , absolutely crucial ? that 's the bedrock . we do n't dictate to individual schools the nature of the system that they should employ in their school . there are a number of different programmes that allow schools to do this , but we are absolutely clear , and best practice and evidence shows us , that individual pupil tracking is key and crucial . and , as i said in the beginning , where we were n't tracking pupils at all , initial investment in pdg was used to establish these systems within schools . again , one of the outcomes from the schools challenge review , and one of the lessons learnt , was , again , the importance of individual tracking of pupils throughout their school career . but we do n't dictate a single system . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . kirsty williams am: but the principle is a really important one . lynne neagle am: okay , and you do n't think there 's more scope to look at what the best system is that can be recommended to schools . kirsty williams am: that 's not something we 're actively looking at . i am actively looking at developing a welsh toolkit around good practice , evidence base and research . at the moment we use the sutton trust toolkit , which is fine and excellent , but we are having active discussions about whether we 're in a position , now , to look at developing a suite of a welsh toolkit to support this agenda , and that 's under active consideration . lynne neagle am: okay . well , we 've reached the end of our session . can i thank the cabinet secretary and the officials for attending and for answering such a wide range of questions ? as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting , but thank you again for coming . kirsty williams am: thank you very much . lynne neagle am: thank you . okay . item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the minister for children and social care on families first funding . paper to note 2 is a letter from the cabinet secretary for education , updating us on the supply teacher issue . paper to note 3—another letter from the cabinet secretary for education , providing further information following our meeting on 15 february . paper to note 4 is a letter from the wjec on availability of textbooks . paper to note 5—a letter from qualifications wales , also on availability of textbooks . and paper to note 6 is a letter from the cabinet secretary for education to the children 's commissioner for wales , following up on the dialogue that they 've been having about our inquiry . are members happy to note those ? thank you . item 4 , then , is for me to propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? thank you .

kirsty williams thinks that it 's absolutely crucial that we track performance . where they were n't tracking pupils at all , initial investment in pdg was used to establish these systems within schools . one of the outcomes from the schools challenge review , and one of the lessons learnt was the importance of individual tracking of pupils throughout their school career . but they ca n't dictate a single system .

summarize the meeting </s> grad a: why ? grad d: um . grad e: i 'm known . i grad a: no , cuz she already told me it , before she told you . grad e: no , she told me a long time ago . she told me she told me like two weeks ago . grad a: oh , well , it does n't matter what time . grad b: ok . you know how to toggle the display width function grad a: well maybe she had n't just started transcribing me yet . grad d: wow . grad a: anyway . grad d: what is it ? grad e: let me explain something to you . grad d: um , grad e: my laugh is better than yours . grad d: there . grad a: i beg to differ . grad b: yo . grad d: um , ok . grad a: but you have to say something genuinely funny before you 'll get an example . grad e: yeah . grad d: the thing is i do n't know how to get to the next page . here . grad e: no . you should be at least be self - satisfied enough to laugh at your own jokes . grad d: actually i thought grad a: no , it 's a different laugh . grad d: there . grad a: ooh , wow ! grad d: how weird . grad e: oh ! holy mackerel . grad a: wow . whoa ! grad d: what ? ! oh . ok . i was n't even doing anything . ok . grad a: uh . grad e: eva 's got a laptop , she 's trying to show it off . grad d: that was r actually robert 's idea . but anyhow . um professor f: o k . so , here we are . grad e: once again . professor f: once again , right , together . um , so we have n't had a meeting for a while , and and probably wo n't have one next week , i think a number of people are gone . um , so robert , why do n't you bring us up to date on where we are with edu ? grad b: um , uh in a in a smaller group we had uh , talked and decided about continuation of the data collection . so fey 's time with us is almost officially over , and she brought us some thirty subjects and , t collected the data , and ten dialogues have been transcribed and can be looked at . if you 're interested in that , talk to me . um , and we found another uh , cogsci student who 's interested in playing wizard for us . here we 're gon na make it a little bit more complicated for the subjects , uh this round . she 's actually suggested to look um , at the psychology department students , because they have to partake in two experiments in order to fulfill some requirements . so they have to be subjected , { comment } before they can actually graduate . and um , we want to design it so that they really have to think about having some time , two days , for example , to plan certain things and figure out which can be done at what time , and , um , sort of package the whole thing in a in a re in a few more complicated um , structure . that 's for the data collection . as for smartkom , i 'm the last smartkom meeting i mentioned that we have some problems with the synthesis , which as of this morning should be resolved . and , so , professor f: good . grad b: `` should be `` means they are n't yet , but but i think i have the info now that i need . plus , johno and i are meeting tomorrow , so maybe uh uh , when tomorrow is over , we 're done . and ha n hav we 'll never have to look at it again maybe it 'll take some more time , to be realistic , but at least we 're we 're seeing the end of the tunnel there . that was that . um , the uh , uh i do n't think we need to discuss the formalism that 'll be done officially s once we 're done . um , something happened , in on eva 's side with the prm that we 're gon na look at today , and um , we have a visitor from bruchsal from the international university . andreas , i think you 've met everyone except nancy . grad a: sorry . hi . hi . grad c: yeah . grad b: hi . hi . grad a: so when you said `` andreas `` i thought you were talking about stolcke . grad b: and , um , grad a: now i know that we are n't , ok . grad b: andy , you actually go by andy , right ? oh , ok . grad c: yeah . grad b: eh grad c: cuz there is another andreas around , grad a: hmm . grad c: so , to avoid some confusion . grad b: that will be reuter ? oh , ok . grad c: yeah . grad b: so my scientific director of the eml is also the dean of the international university , one of his many occupations that just contributes to the fact that he is very occupied . and , um , the um , he @ @ might tell us a little bit about what he 's actually doing , and why it is s somewhat related , and by uh using maybe some of the same technologies that we are using . and um . was that enough of an update ? professor f: i think so . grad b: in what order shall we proceed ? grad d: ok . grad b: maybe you have your on - line grad d: uh , yeah , sure . um , so , i 've be just been looking at , um , ack ! what are you doing ? yeah . ok . um , i 've been looking at the prm stuff . um , so , this is , sort of like the latest thing i have on it , and i sorta constructed a couple of classes . like , a user class , a site class , and and you know , a time , a route , and then and a query class . and i tried to simplify it down a little bit , so that i can actually um , look at it more . it 's the same paper that i gave to jerry last time . um , so basically i took out a lot of stuff , a lot of the decision nodes , and then tried to the red lines on the , um , graph are the um , relations between the different um , classes . like , a user has like , a query , and then , also has , you know um , reference slots to its preferences , um , the special needs and , you know , money , and the user interest . and so this is more or less similar to the flat bayes - net that i have , you know , with the input nodes and all that . and so i tried to construct the dependency models , and a lot of these stuff i got from the flat bayes - net , and what they depend on , and it turns out , you know , the cpt 's are really big , if i do that , so i tried to see how i can do , um put in the computational nodes in between . and what that would look like in a prm . and so i ended up making several classes actually , you know , a class of with different attributes that are the intermediate nodes , and one of them is like , time affordability money affordability , site availability , and the travel compatibility . and so some of these classes are s some of these attributes only depend on stuff from , say , the user , or s f just from , i do n't know , like the site . s like , um , these here , it 's only like , user , but , if you look at travel compatibility for each of these factors , you need to look at a pair of , you know , what the um , preference of the user is versus , you know , what type of an event it is , or you know , which form of transportation the user has and whether , you know , the onsite parking matters to the user , in that case . and that makes the scenario a little different in a prm , because , um , then you have one - user objects and potentially you can have many different sites in in mind . and so for each of the site you 'll come up with this rating , of travel compatibility . and , they all depend on the same users , but different sites , and that makes a i 'm tr i w i wa have been trying to see whether the prm would make it more efficient if we do inferencing like that . and so , i guess you end up having fewer number of nodes than in a flat bayes - net , cuz otherwise you would c well , it 's probably the same . but um , no , you would definitely have be able to re - use , like , um , all the user stuff , and not not having to recompute a lot of the stuff , because it 's all from the user side . so if you changed sites , you you can , you know , save some work on that . but , you know , in the case where , it depends on both the user and the site , then i 'm still having a hard time trying to see how um , using the prm will help . um , so anyhow , using those intermediate nodes then , this this would be the class that represent the intermediate nodes . and that would basically it 's just another class in the model , with , you know , references to the user and the site and the time . and then , after you group them together this no the dependencies would of the queries would be reduced to this . and so , you know , it 's easier to specify the cpt and all . um , so i think that 's about as far as i 've gone on the prm stuff . professor f: well grad d: right . professor f: no . so y you did n't yet tell us what the output is . grad d: the output . professor f: so what decisions does this make ? grad d: ok . so it only makes two decisions , in this model . and one is basically how desirable a site is meaning , um , how good it matches the needs of a user . and the other is the mode of the visit , whether th it 's the eva decision . um , so , instead of um , doing a lot of , you know , computation about , you know , which one site it wants of the user wants to visit , i 'll come well , try to come up with like , sort of a list of sites . and for each site , you know , where h how how well it fits , and basically a rating of how well it fits and what to do with it . so . anything else i missed ? professor f: so that was pretty quick . she 's ac uh uh eva 's got a little write - up on it that uh , probably gives the the details to anybody who needs them . um , so the you you did n't look at all yet to see if there 's anybody has a implementation . grad d: no , not yet , um professor f: ok . so one so one of the questions , you know , about these p r ms is grad d: mm - hmm . professor f: uh , we are n't gon na build our own interpreter , so if if we ca n't find one , then we uh , go off and do something else and wait until s one appears . uh , so one of the things that eva 's gon na do over the next few weeks is see if we can track that down . uh , the people at stanford write papers as if they had one , but , um , we 'll see . so w anyway . so that 's a a major open issue . if there is an interpreter , it looks like you know , what eva 's got should run and we should be able to actually um , try to solve , you know , the problems , to actually take the data , and do it . uh , and we 'll see . uh , i actually think it is cleaner , and the ability to instantiate , you know , instance of people and sites and stuff , um , will help in the expression . whether the inference gets any faster or not i do n't know . uh , it would n't surprise me if it if it does n't . grad d: mm - hmm . professor f: you know , it 's the same kind of information . i think there are things that you can express this way which you ca n't express in a normal belief - net , uh , without going to some incredible hacking of sort of rebuilding it on the fly . i mean , the notion of instantiating your el elements from the ontology and stuff fits this very nicely and does n't fit very well into the extended belief - net . so that was one of the main reasons for doing it . um . i do n't know . so , uh , people who have thought about the problem , like robert i it looked to me like if { comment } eva were able to come up with a you know , value for each of a number of uh , sites plus its eva thing , that a travel planner should be able to take it from there . and you know , with some other information about how much time the person has and whatever , and then plan a route . grad b: um - hmm , um , well , first of all uh , uh , great looks , mu much cleaner , nnn , nnn , certain certain beauty in it , so , um , if beauty is truth , then , uh we 're in good shape . but , the um , as , uh , mentioned before we probably should look at t the details . so if you have a write - up then uh , i 'd love to read it grad d: mm - hmm . grad b: and uh because , um , i can you go all the way back to the the very top ? grad d: yeah . grad b: um , uh these @ @ { comment } these w w when these are instantiated they take on the same values ? that we had before ? grad d: i ca n't really see the whole thing . grad b: or are they have they changed , in a sense ? grad d: well i think i basically leave them to similar things . grad b: uh - huh . grad d: some of the things might that might be different , maybe like are that the hours for the site . grad b: hmm . grad d: and , eventually i meant that to mean whether they 're open at this hour or not . grad b: uh - huh . grad d: and status would be , you know , more or less like , whether they 're under construction , and and or stuff like that . grad b: and the , uh , other question i would have is that presumably , from the way the stanford people talk about it , you can put the probabilities also on the relations . if grad d: which is the structural uncertainty ? professor f: yeah . yeah , i that 's that i think was actually in the previous the ubenth stuff . i do n't remember whether they carried that over to this or not , grad a: mmm . professor f: uh , structural uncertainty . grad b: it 's sort of in the definition or in the in daphne 's definition of a prm is that classes and relations , professor f: ok . grad b: and you 're gon na have cpt 's over the classes and their relations . professor f: alright . grad b: more uncertainty , or or professor f: uh , grad b: i should say . grad d: i remember them learning when , you know , you do n't know the structure for sure , professor f: yeah . grad d: but i do n't remember reading how you specify grad b: yeah , that would be exactly my question . professor f: right . grad d: wh to start with . yeah . grad b: well grad d: yeah . professor f: yeah . so , uh , the the plan is is when daphne gets back , we 'll get in touch and supposedly , um , we 'll actually get s deep seriously connected to to their work and grad b: yep . professor f: somebody 'll uh , you know if it 's a group meeting once a week probably someone 'll go down and , whatever . so , we 'll actually figure all this out . grad b: ok . ok . then i think the w long term perspective is is pretty clear . we get rocking and rolling on this again , once we get a package , if , when , and how , then this becomes foregrounded grad d: mm - hmm . grad b: profiled , focused , again . grad e: designated ? grad a: of course . grad b: and um , until then we 'll come up with a something that 's @ @ { comment } that 's way more complicated for you . right ? grad d: ok . grad b: because this was laughingly easy , right ? grad d: actually i had to take out a lot of the complicated stuff , cuz i i made it really complicated in the beginning , and jerry was like , `` this is just too much `` . professor f: yeah . so , um , you could , from this , go on and say suppose there 's a group of people traveling together and you wanted to plan something that somehow , with some pareto optimal uh , uh , thing for grad a: that 's good . that 's definitely a job for artificial intelligence . professor f: uh , or grad a: except for humans ca n't really solve it either , so . grad b: well that 's not not even something humans yeah . professor f: right . right . well that 's the that would that would be a uh , you could sell it , as a grad a: yeah . professor f: ok , eh you do n't have to fight about this , just give your preferences to the grad a: and then you can blame the computer . professor f: w exactly . grad a: so . grad b: hmm . but what does it uh would a pote potential result be to to split up and never talk to each other again ? you know . grad a: that should be one of them . grad b: yeah . professor f: yeah . right . grad e: that 'd be nice . grad a: mmm . professor f: anyway . so . so there i there are some some u uh , you know , uh , elaborations of this that you could try to put in to this structure , but i do n't think it 's worth it now . because we 're gon na see what what else uh what else we 're gon na do . anyway . but uh , it 's good , yeah and and there were a couple other ideas of of uh , things for eva to look at in in the interim . grad b: good . then , we can move on and see what andreas has got out his sleeve . or andy , for that matter ? grad c: ok . so uh , uh , well , thanks for having me here , first of all . um , so maybe just a a little background on on my visit . so , uh , i 'm not really involved in any project , that 's uh that 's relevant to you uh , a at the moment , uh , the the reason is really for me uh , to have an opportunity to talk to some other researchers in the field . and and so i 'll just n sort of give you a real quick introduction to what i 'm working on , and um , i just hope that you have some comments or , maybe you 're interested in it to find out more , and and so i 'll be uh , happy to talk to you and and uh , i 'd also like to find out some more and and maybe i 'll just walk around the office and and then and ask some some questions , uh , in a couple days . so i 'll be here for uh , tomorrow and then uh , the remainder of uh , next week . ok , so , um , what i started looking at , uh , to begin with is just uh , content management systems uh , i i in general . so um , uh what 's uh sort of the state of the art there is to um uh you have a bunch of of uh documents or learning units or learning objects , um , and you store meta - data uh , associate to them . so there 's some international standards like the i - triple - e , uh there 's an i - triple - e , lon standard , and um , these fields are pretty straightforward , you have uh author information , you have uh , size information , format information and so on . uh , but they 're two uh fields that are um , more interesting . one is uh you store keywords associated with the uh with the document , and one is uh , you have sort of a , um , well , what is the document about ? so it 's some sort of taxonomic uh , ordering of of the of the units . now , if you sort of put on your semantic glasses , uh you say , well that 's not all that easy , because there 's an implicit um , uh , assumption behind that is that uh , all the users of this system share the same interpretation of the keyword and the same interpretation of uh , whichever taxonomy is used , and uh , i think that 's a that 's a very that 's a key point of these systems and they sort of always brush over this real quickly without really elaborating much of that and uh as a matter of fact , the only thing that m apparently really works out so far are library ordering codes , which are very , very coarse grain , so you have some like , science , biology , and then but that 's really all that we have at the moment . so i think there 's a huge , um , uh need for improvement there . now , what this uh a standard like this would give us is we could um , sort of uh with a search engine just query uh , different repositories all over the world . but we ca n't really um , so what i 'm what i try to do is um , to have um , uh so . so the scenario is the following , you you 're working on some sort of project and you encounter a certain problem . now , what what we have at our university quite a bit is that uh , students um , try to u program a certain assignment , for example , they always run into the same problems , uh , and they always come running to us , and they 'll say why 's it not it 's not working , and we always give out the same answer , so we thought , well , it 'd be nice to have a system that could sort of take care of this , and so , what i want to build is basically a a smart f a q system . now , what you uh need to do here is you need to provide some context information which is more elaborate than `` i 'm looking for this and this and this keyword . `` so . and i think that i do n't need to tell you this . i 'm i 'm sure you have the same when when somebody utters a sentence in a certain , uh , context it , and and the same sentence in another context makes a huge difference . so , i want to be able to model information like , um , so in the in the context of in the context of developing distributed systems , of a at a computer science school , um , what kind of software is the person using , which homework assignment is he or she working on at the moment , um , maybe what 's the background of that student 's um , which um , which error message was encountered . so this sort of information i think should be transmitted , uh , when a certain document is retrieved . now , um , basically giving this um uh so we somehow need to have a formalized um , way of writing this down basically , and that 's where the shared interpretation of of certain terms and keywords comes in again . and , using this and some some uh , knowledge about the domain i think you can do some some simple inferences . like you know that when somebody 's working about uh , working on on servlets for example , he 's using java , cuz servlets are used are written in java . so some some inferences like that , now , um , u using this you can infer more information , and you could then match this to the meta - data of um off the documents you 're you 're searching against . so , uh what i wan na do is basically have some sort of um given these inputs , and then i can compute how many documents match , and use this as a metric in the search . now , what i plan to do is i want to uh sort of do a uh uh try to improve the quality of the search results , and i want to do this by having a depth uh , um , um steepest descent approach . so if i knew which operating system the person was working on , would this improve my search result ? and and having uh , uh a symbolic formalized model of this i could simply compute that , and find out which um which questions are worth um , asking . and that 's what i then propagate back to the user , and and sort of try to optimize the search in this way . now , the big problem that i 'm facing right now is um , it 's fairly easy to hack up a system uh quickly , that that works in the small domain , but the problem is obviously the scalability . and uh uh , so robert was mentioning uh , earlier today is that uh , microsoft for example with their printer set up program has a bayesian network , which does exactly this , but there you face a problem that these are very hard to extend . and so , uh what i 'm what i try to do is basically try to model this uh , in a way that you could really combine uh , knowledge from very different sources , and and um , sort of looking into some of the ideas that the semantic web community uh , came up with . trying to to have uh , an approach how to integrate s uh certain uh representation of certain concepts and also some computational rules , um , what you can do with those . um . what i 'm also looking into is a probabilistic approach into this because document retrievals is a very fuzzy procedure , so it 's probably not that easy to simply have a symbolic uh , computational model . that that probably is n't expressive enough . so . so that 's another thing , um , which i think you 're also uh , uh looking into right now . and then um , uh sort of as an add - on to this whole idea , um , uh that would be now , depending on what the search engine or the content repository depending on which um , uh , which uh , rules and which ontologies it it uses , or basically its view of the world , uh you can get very different results . so it might ma make a lot of sense to actually query a lot of different search engines . and there you could have an idea where you actually have sort of a a peer to peer approach , where we 're all sort of carrying around our individual bookshelves , and um , if you have a question about a homework , it 's probably makes sense to ask somebody who 's in your class with you , sort of the guru in the certain area , rather than going to some yahoo - like uh , search engine . so these are some of the just in a nutshell , some of the ideas . and i think a lot of the even though it 's a it 's a very different domain , but i think a lot of the , um , issues are are fairly similar . so . ok . grad a: and so some of the i do n't know how much you know about the larger heidelberg project , i are you grad c: uh i know , yeah i know abou about it . grad a: so it seems like a lot of some of the issues are the same . it 's like , um , you know , the c context - based factors that influence how you interpret , grad c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad a: um , s how to interpret . in in this case , infer in in knowing wanting to know what kinds of things to ask . we - we 've kind of talked about that , but we have n't worried too much about that end of the discourse . grad b: mm - hmm . grad a: but maybe you guys had that in the previous models . grad b: well , in a in one t one s mmm , small difference in a in a way , is that he does n't have to come up with an answer , but he wants to point to the places w w grad a: documents that have the answers . grad c: yeah , so . so i 'm i 'm not i 'm not building an expert grad a: mm - hmm . grad c: uh , i want to build a smart librarian , basically grad a: right . right . grad c: that can point you to the right reference . i do n't wan na compute the answer , so it 's a little bit easier for me . grad b: well . uh , you have to s still m understand what the content says about itself , and then match it to what you think the informational needs grad a: mm - hmm . grad c: mm - hmm . grad a: so you also do n't have to figure out what the content is . you 're just taking the keywords as a topic text , as grad c: i i assume that that the there will be learning systems that that tag their their content . grad a: ok . right . grad c: and um , um , m @ @ and basically what i what i envision is that you rather than just supplying a bunch of keywords you could basically for for an faq for example you could state sort of like a logic condition , when this document applies . so `` this document explains how to set up your uh , mail account on linux `` or something like this . grad a: mm - hmm . grad c: so . so something something very specific that you can then but the i think that the key point with these uh , learning systems is that uh , a learning system is only as good as uh the amount of content it it carries . grad a: mmm , mm - hmm . grad c: you can have the best learning system with the best search interface , if there 's no content inside of it , it 's not very useful . so i think ultimately because um , uh developing these these rules and these inference uh inferences i think is very costly , so um , uh i think you must be able to reuse some some existing um , domain domain information , or or or ontologies that that uh other people wrote and then try to integrate them , and then also search the entire web basically , rather than just the small uh , content management system . grad a: ok . mm - hmm . grad c: so i think that 's that 's crucial for for the success of or @ @ grad a: so , you 're not i guess i 'm trying to figure out how how it maps to the kinds of things that we 've talked about in this group , and , actually associated groups , grad c: mm - hmm . grad a: cuz some of us do pretty detailed linguistic analyses , and i 'm guessing that you you wo n't be doing that ? ok . grad c: no . grad a: just checking . so , ok . grad b: hmm . grad c: no . grad a: so , you take the query , and and professor f: on the other hand , uh , framenet could well be useful . so do you know the framenet story ? grad c: um , yeah . uh , not not too much , professor f: ok . grad c: but uh , professor f: oh . th - that 's another thing you might wan na look into while you 're here . grad c: i have a rough overview . professor f: because , um , you know , the standard story is that keyworks keywords evoke frames , and the frames may well give you additional keywords or uh , if you know that that that a a bunch of keywords uh , indicate a frame , then you can find documents that actually have the whole frame , rather th than just uh , individual grad c: mmm . mmm . professor f: so there 's a lot of stuff , and people are looking at that . most of the work here is just trying to get the frames right . there 's linguists and stuff and there 's a lot of it and they 're they 're busily working away . but there are some application efforts trying to exploit it . and this looks t it seems to be that this is a place where you might be able to do that . grad c: yeah . yeah . yeah . i 'm sure i could learn a lot about um , yeah , just how to how to come up with these structures , grad a: mmm . grad c: cuz it 's it 's very easy to whip up something quickly , but it maybe then makes sense to to me , but not to anybody else , and and if we want to share and integrate things , they must well , they must be well designed really . grad b: remember the uh , prashant story ? professor f: right . grad b: the absolutely no no linguistic background person that the iu sent over here . professor f: right . grad b: and andreas and i tried to come up wi or we had come up actually with a eh with him working on an interface for framenet , as it was back then , that would p do some of the work for this machine , professor f: right . yeah . grad b: which uh , never got done because prashant found a happy occupation professor f: w yeah , i know , i mean it it he w he did w what what he did was much more s sensible for him . grad b: which in the absolutely . yeah . professor f: i think uh , grad b: but so i 'm just saying , the uh , we had that idea professor f: you know yeah . the idea was there . yeah , ok . grad b: uh to to exploit framenet there as well . professor f: yeah . grad a: hmm . grad b: and um . professor f: yeah , actually you guys never grad b: and srini 's doing information extraction also , right ? professor f: right . grad b: with that framenet base . grad c: mmm . professor f: yeah . grad b: mm - hmm . professor f: so you you guys never sent anybody else from i u . grad c: except except prashant ? professor f: you were y no yeah . grad c: um , professor f: uh , this was supposedly an exchange program , and i we you know , it 's fine . we do n't care , but it just i 'm a little surprised that uh , andreas did n't come up with anyone else he wanted to send . grad a: hmm . grad c: uh i do n't know , i mean the uh professor f: alright . i mean i had forgotten a i to be honest with you , i 'd totally forgotten we had a program . grad b: uh it 's in the program ? grad c: uh i i think it 's it 's really the lack of students uh , at iu at the moment . professor f: yeah . yeah . no , no . there was a whole co there was a little contract signed . it was yeah . grad c: yeah , yeah . i think it 's ju it 's more the lack of of students , really , and w we have all these sponsors that are always sort of eager to get some teams . professor f: yeah , i know . grad a: mmm . professor f: right . grad c: but professor f: right . grad c: well i mean if if i were a student , i 'd love to come here , rather than work for some german company , or professor f: yeah . right . grad b: you are being recorded right now , so beware . professor f: oh , right ! grad c: well , i did n't say anybody to anything to offend well , except for the sponsors maybe , but professor f: right . anyway . right . so i thi tha that 's that 's one of the things that might be worth looking into while you 're here . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: uh , unfortunately , srini , who is heavily involved in daml and all this sort of stuff is himself out of town . grad c: mm - hmm . well i 'll go to the uh , semantic web workshop , uh , in two weeks . professor f: right , and yeah , for for some reason he 's not doing that . grad a: yeah . well , he had other things to do . professor f: i do n't know why he @ @ oh , i , who knows ? grad a: the uh professor f: anyway , s yeah , you 'll see you 'll certainly see a lot of the people there . grad a: the other person i thought of is dan gildea ? because he did some work on topic spotting professor f: yeah . st - statistical stuff . that would be a very good idea . grad a: w um , which is , i mean , you i mean . i do n't depending on how well you wan na integrate with that end , grad c: mm - hmm . grad a: you know , like , taking the data and fig you said the learning systems that figure out we there 's someone in icsi who actually has been working on has worked on that kinda stuff , and he 's worked with frame net , so you could talk to him about , you know , both of those things at once . grad c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad a: so . and he just finished writing a draft of his thesis . so . i u dan gildea , gildea . grad c: so , uh , who is that again ? grad a: and , he 's in one of the rooms on the fifth floor and stuff , grad b: who ? i can take you to his office . grad a: and grad b: it 's just around the corner . grad c: ok , great . grad a: hmm . well , if you fal solve the problem , hope you can do one for us too . professor f: alright , was there anything else for this ? one of these times soon we 're gon na hear about construal . grad b: yeah . i 'm sure . i have um i think it was november two thousand three or some no . wh - i had something in my calendar . professor f: oh , ok . right . grad b: um , grad e: wait a second . that 's a long way away . professor f: good thinking ! grad b: uh well , maybe i can i can bribe my way out of this . so . so i did some double checking and it seems like spring break in two thousand one . grad a: talk about changing the topic . grad b: no . professor f: well , no , but he 's he 's he 's he 's as you said , he 's , like the state legislature , he 's trying to offer us bribes . grad a: at least this is a private meeting . right , exactly , ok , that 's the link . grad b: this uh oh , they refused the budget again ? is it so about citris ? yeah , still nothing . professor f: uh , this this this t the s we 're , uh , involved in a literally three hundred million dollar uh , program . uh , with the state of california . and , the state of california is now a month and a half behind its legis its legally required date to approve a budget . so the budget has not been approved . and two days ago there 's two l you know , so , two branches of legislature . one branch approved it , grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: and , um , yesterdayday { comment } there was this uh uh i thought that the other branch would just approve it , but now there 's actually a little back sliding to people who who approved it got flak from there , eh anyway . so , um oh ! i have to tell you a wonderful story about this , ok ? and then we 'll go . so , i it turns out i wound up having lunch today with a guy named tom kalil . kill kalil . and , uh , he now works at berkeley . in fact he 's hired to run a lot of citris , even though we do n't have the money they so they 've been hiring people right and left , so , uh , they think the money 's coming . so and he was , i think , the chief staffer to clinton on technology matters . he was in the white house , i do n't remember what he was saying . a anyway , like that . and , is now doing all the politics for citris , but also , has a uh , a lot of interest in uh , actually doing things for society , so digital divide and stuff like that . so that 's s interesting to me but maybe not to you . but the really interesting thing was , he st he s he s said something about , you know i 'm interested in things that have high social multiplier , something that is of great social value . he said , `` for example `` , this was his only example , `` if you had a adult literacy program that was as good as an individual tutor , and as compelling as a video game , then that would have a huge social impact `` . i said , `` oh great ! that 's a good problem to work on . `` anyway . so it was nice that uh , he 's got this view , of a , that 's what you should try to do , and b , uh , language would be a good way to do it . grad a: mmm . definitely . professor f: so that 's so anyway , that 's the end of the story . grad a: but for adults and not for the children . professor f: this was yeah . i did n't push him on the ch on the child thing , grad a: uh - huh . professor f: but , uh , you know , a again , if if you if you grad a: oh . professor f: um , and this was this was literacy , which actually is somewhat different problem . grad a: mm - hmm . professor f: maybe easier . i do n't know . so this is reading , rather than teaching another project we started on , and and did n't get funded for was , uh , to try to build an automatic tutoring program , for kids whose first language was n't english . which is like half the school population in california . something like that , grad a: mm - hmm . professor f: is n't it ? yeah . so , enormous problem in california , and the idea was if we 're so smart about language understanding and speech understanding , could n't we build uh , programs that would be tutors for the kids . we think we could . anyway . so so but this is a slightly different problem , grad a: mm - hmm . professor f: and um , i know none of us have the spare time to look at it right now , but it i it 's it 's interesting and i may um , talk to him some more about is em somebody already doing this , and stuff like that . so anyway , that was that was today 's little story . grad e: hmm . grad b: ok . so i i did manage to get pull my head out of the sling by sidetracking into citris , professor f: no , no . grad b: but uh or a temporarily putting it out of the sling professor f: right . grad b: but , i i 'll volunteer to put it right back in by stating that i am n uh among some other things in the process of writing up stuff that we have been discussing at our daily meetings , professor f: yeah . grad b: and also revising , thanks for all the comments , the c the original construal proposal . and , if i put one and one together , i may end up with a number that 's greater than one and that i i can potentially present once you get back . grad a: greater than two ? professor f: you 're good . grad b: nnn . { comment } s sometimes , you know the sum is not uh less than the grad a: uh , right , right . professor f: right . right . anyway . yeah , so ok , so that 'd be great , but i 'd i think it 's it 's time again , right ? grad b: absolutely . yeah . professor f: yeah . ok . grad b: but um , and hopefully all sidetracking um , other things will have disappeared , soon . professor f: good . yep . done ?

the first phase of the data collection has finished . there is a new wizard for phase two , during which subjects will be given more complex scenarios . an alternative representation of the bayes-net , it depicts context features as classes , and dependencies as relations between them . following this , a visiting researcher presented an overview of a parallel project at the international university . it attempts to build a smart tutoring system for a computer science course . the assumption is that document searches can give more personalised results , if they take into account contextual parameters ( user , situation ) . there were also further suggestions for meetings with icsi researchers .

what are progress updates ? </s> grad a: why ? grad d: um . grad e: i 'm known . i grad a: no , cuz she already told me it , before she told you . grad e: no , she told me a long time ago . she told me she told me like two weeks ago . grad a: oh , well , it does n't matter what time . grad b: ok . you know how to toggle the display width function grad a: well maybe she had n't just started transcribing me yet . grad d: wow . grad a: anyway . grad d: what is it ? grad e: let me explain something to you . grad d: um , grad e: my laugh is better than yours . grad d: there . grad a: i beg to differ . grad b: yo . grad d: um , ok . grad a: but you have to say something genuinely funny before you 'll get an example . grad e: yeah . grad d: the thing is i do n't know how to get to the next page . here . grad e: no . you should be at least be self - satisfied enough to laugh at your own jokes . grad d: actually i thought grad a: no , it 's a different laugh . grad d: there . grad a: ooh , wow ! grad d: how weird . grad e: oh ! holy mackerel . grad a: wow . whoa ! grad d: what ? ! oh . ok . i was n't even doing anything . ok . grad a: uh . grad e: eva 's got a laptop , she 's trying to show it off . grad d: that was r actually robert 's idea . but anyhow . um professor f: o k . so , here we are . grad e: once again . professor f: once again , right , together . um , so we have n't had a meeting for a while , and and probably wo n't have one next week , i think a number of people are gone . um , so robert , why do n't you bring us up to date on where we are with edu ? grad b: um , uh in a in a smaller group we had uh , talked and decided about continuation of the data collection . so fey 's time with us is almost officially over , and she brought us some thirty subjects and , t collected the data , and ten dialogues have been transcribed and can be looked at . if you 're interested in that , talk to me . um , and we found another uh , cogsci student who 's interested in playing wizard for us . here we 're gon na make it a little bit more complicated for the subjects , uh this round . she 's actually suggested to look um , at the psychology department students , because they have to partake in two experiments in order to fulfill some requirements . so they have to be subjected , { comment } before they can actually graduate . and um , we want to design it so that they really have to think about having some time , two days , for example , to plan certain things and figure out which can be done at what time , and , um , sort of package the whole thing in a in a re in a few more complicated um , structure . that 's for the data collection . as for smartkom , i 'm the last smartkom meeting i mentioned that we have some problems with the synthesis , which as of this morning should be resolved . and , so , professor f: good . grad b: `` should be `` means they are n't yet , but but i think i have the info now that i need . plus , johno and i are meeting tomorrow , so maybe uh uh , when tomorrow is over , we 're done . and ha n hav we 'll never have to look at it again maybe it 'll take some more time , to be realistic , but at least we 're we 're seeing the end of the tunnel there . that was that . um , the uh , uh i do n't think we need to discuss the formalism that 'll be done officially s once we 're done . um , something happened , in on eva 's side with the prm that we 're gon na look at today , and um , we have a visitor from bruchsal from the international university . andreas , i think you 've met everyone except nancy . grad a: sorry . hi . hi . grad c: yeah . grad b: hi . hi . grad a: so when you said `` andreas `` i thought you were talking about stolcke . grad b: and , um , grad a: now i know that we are n't , ok . grad b: andy , you actually go by andy , right ? oh , ok . grad c: yeah . grad b: eh grad c: cuz there is another andreas around , grad a: hmm . grad c: so , to avoid some confusion . grad b: that will be reuter ? oh , ok . grad c: yeah . grad b: so my scientific director of the eml is also the dean of the international university , one of his many occupations that just contributes to the fact that he is very occupied . and , um , the um , he @ @ might tell us a little bit about what he 's actually doing , and why it is s somewhat related , and by uh using maybe some of the same technologies that we are using . and um . was that enough of an update ? professor f: i think so . grad b: in what order shall we proceed ? grad d: ok . grad b: maybe you have your on - line grad d: uh , yeah , sure . um , so , i 've be just been looking at , um , ack ! what are you doing ? yeah . ok . um , i 've been looking at the prm stuff . um , so , this is , sort of like the latest thing i have on it , and i sorta constructed a couple of classes . like , a user class , a site class , and and you know , a time , a route , and then and a query class . and i tried to simplify it down a little bit , so that i can actually um , look at it more . it 's the same paper that i gave to jerry last time . um , so basically i took out a lot of stuff , a lot of the decision nodes , and then tried to the red lines on the , um , graph are the um , relations between the different um , classes . like , a user has like , a query , and then , also has , you know um , reference slots to its preferences , um , the special needs and , you know , money , and the user interest . and so this is more or less similar to the flat bayes - net that i have , you know , with the input nodes and all that . and so i tried to construct the dependency models , and a lot of these stuff i got from the flat bayes - net , and what they depend on , and it turns out , you know , the cpt 's are really big , if i do that , so i tried to see how i can do , um put in the computational nodes in between . and what that would look like in a prm . and so i ended up making several classes actually , you know , a class of with different attributes that are the intermediate nodes , and one of them is like , time affordability money affordability , site availability , and the travel compatibility . and so some of these classes are s some of these attributes only depend on stuff from , say , the user , or s f just from , i do n't know , like the site . s like , um , these here , it 's only like , user , but , if you look at travel compatibility for each of these factors , you need to look at a pair of , you know , what the um , preference of the user is versus , you know , what type of an event it is , or you know , which form of transportation the user has and whether , you know , the onsite parking matters to the user , in that case . and that makes the scenario a little different in a prm , because , um , then you have one - user objects and potentially you can have many different sites in in mind . and so for each of the site you 'll come up with this rating , of travel compatibility . and , they all depend on the same users , but different sites , and that makes a i 'm tr i w i wa have been trying to see whether the prm would make it more efficient if we do inferencing like that . and so , i guess you end up having fewer number of nodes than in a flat bayes - net , cuz otherwise you would c well , it 's probably the same . but um , no , you would definitely have be able to re - use , like , um , all the user stuff , and not not having to recompute a lot of the stuff , because it 's all from the user side . so if you changed sites , you you can , you know , save some work on that . but , you know , in the case where , it depends on both the user and the site , then i 'm still having a hard time trying to see how um , using the prm will help . um , so anyhow , using those intermediate nodes then , this this would be the class that represent the intermediate nodes . and that would basically it 's just another class in the model , with , you know , references to the user and the site and the time . and then , after you group them together this no the dependencies would of the queries would be reduced to this . and so , you know , it 's easier to specify the cpt and all . um , so i think that 's about as far as i 've gone on the prm stuff . professor f: well grad d: right . professor f: no . so y you did n't yet tell us what the output is . grad d: the output . professor f: so what decisions does this make ? grad d: ok . so it only makes two decisions , in this model . and one is basically how desirable a site is meaning , um , how good it matches the needs of a user . and the other is the mode of the visit , whether th it 's the eva decision . um , so , instead of um , doing a lot of , you know , computation about , you know , which one site it wants of the user wants to visit , i 'll come well , try to come up with like , sort of a list of sites . and for each site , you know , where h how how well it fits , and basically a rating of how well it fits and what to do with it . so . anything else i missed ? professor f: so that was pretty quick . she 's ac uh uh eva 's got a little write - up on it that uh , probably gives the the details to anybody who needs them . um , so the you you did n't look at all yet to see if there 's anybody has a implementation . grad d: no , not yet , um professor f: ok . so one so one of the questions , you know , about these p r ms is grad d: mm - hmm . professor f: uh , we are n't gon na build our own interpreter , so if if we ca n't find one , then we uh , go off and do something else and wait until s one appears . uh , so one of the things that eva 's gon na do over the next few weeks is see if we can track that down . uh , the people at stanford write papers as if they had one , but , um , we 'll see . so w anyway . so that 's a a major open issue . if there is an interpreter , it looks like you know , what eva 's got should run and we should be able to actually um , try to solve , you know , the problems , to actually take the data , and do it . uh , and we 'll see . uh , i actually think it is cleaner , and the ability to instantiate , you know , instance of people and sites and stuff , um , will help in the expression . whether the inference gets any faster or not i do n't know . uh , it would n't surprise me if it if it does n't . grad d: mm - hmm . professor f: you know , it 's the same kind of information . i think there are things that you can express this way which you ca n't express in a normal belief - net , uh , without going to some incredible hacking of sort of rebuilding it on the fly . i mean , the notion of instantiating your el elements from the ontology and stuff fits this very nicely and does n't fit very well into the extended belief - net . so that was one of the main reasons for doing it . um . i do n't know . so , uh , people who have thought about the problem , like robert i it looked to me like if { comment } eva were able to come up with a you know , value for each of a number of uh , sites plus its eva thing , that a travel planner should be able to take it from there . and you know , with some other information about how much time the person has and whatever , and then plan a route . grad b: um - hmm , um , well , first of all uh , uh , great looks , mu much cleaner , nnn , nnn , certain certain beauty in it , so , um , if beauty is truth , then , uh we 're in good shape . but , the um , as , uh , mentioned before we probably should look at t the details . so if you have a write - up then uh , i 'd love to read it grad d: mm - hmm . grad b: and uh because , um , i can you go all the way back to the the very top ? grad d: yeah . grad b: um , uh these @ @ { comment } these w w when these are instantiated they take on the same values ? that we had before ? grad d: i ca n't really see the whole thing . grad b: or are they have they changed , in a sense ? grad d: well i think i basically leave them to similar things . grad b: uh - huh . grad d: some of the things might that might be different , maybe like are that the hours for the site . grad b: hmm . grad d: and , eventually i meant that to mean whether they 're open at this hour or not . grad b: uh - huh . grad d: and status would be , you know , more or less like , whether they 're under construction , and and or stuff like that . grad b: and the , uh , other question i would have is that presumably , from the way the stanford people talk about it , you can put the probabilities also on the relations . if grad d: which is the structural uncertainty ? professor f: yeah . yeah , i that 's that i think was actually in the previous the ubenth stuff . i do n't remember whether they carried that over to this or not , grad a: mmm . professor f: uh , structural uncertainty . grad b: it 's sort of in the definition or in the in daphne 's definition of a prm is that classes and relations , professor f: ok . grad b: and you 're gon na have cpt 's over the classes and their relations . professor f: alright . grad b: more uncertainty , or or professor f: uh , grad b: i should say . grad d: i remember them learning when , you know , you do n't know the structure for sure , professor f: yeah . grad d: but i do n't remember reading how you specify grad b: yeah , that would be exactly my question . professor f: right . grad d: wh to start with . yeah . grad b: well grad d: yeah . professor f: yeah . so , uh , the the plan is is when daphne gets back , we 'll get in touch and supposedly , um , we 'll actually get s deep seriously connected to to their work and grad b: yep . professor f: somebody 'll uh , you know if it 's a group meeting once a week probably someone 'll go down and , whatever . so , we 'll actually figure all this out . grad b: ok . ok . then i think the w long term perspective is is pretty clear . we get rocking and rolling on this again , once we get a package , if , when , and how , then this becomes foregrounded grad d: mm - hmm . grad b: profiled , focused , again . grad e: designated ? grad a: of course . grad b: and um , until then we 'll come up with a something that 's @ @ { comment } that 's way more complicated for you . right ? grad d: ok . grad b: because this was laughingly easy , right ? grad d: actually i had to take out a lot of the complicated stuff , cuz i i made it really complicated in the beginning , and jerry was like , `` this is just too much `` . professor f: yeah . so , um , you could , from this , go on and say suppose there 's a group of people traveling together and you wanted to plan something that somehow , with some pareto optimal uh , uh , thing for grad a: that 's good . that 's definitely a job for artificial intelligence . professor f: uh , or grad a: except for humans ca n't really solve it either , so . grad b: well that 's not not even something humans yeah . professor f: right . right . well that 's the that would that would be a uh , you could sell it , as a grad a: yeah . professor f: ok , eh you do n't have to fight about this , just give your preferences to the grad a: and then you can blame the computer . professor f: w exactly . grad a: so . grad b: hmm . but what does it uh would a pote potential result be to to split up and never talk to each other again ? you know . grad a: that should be one of them . grad b: yeah . professor f: yeah . right . grad e: that 'd be nice . grad a: mmm . professor f: anyway . so . so there i there are some some u uh , you know , uh , elaborations of this that you could try to put in to this structure , but i do n't think it 's worth it now . because we 're gon na see what what else uh what else we 're gon na do . anyway . but uh , it 's good , yeah and and there were a couple other ideas of of uh , things for eva to look at in in the interim . grad b: good . then , we can move on and see what andreas has got out his sleeve . or andy , for that matter ? grad c: ok . so uh , uh , well , thanks for having me here , first of all . um , so maybe just a a little background on on my visit . so , uh , i 'm not really involved in any project , that 's uh that 's relevant to you uh , a at the moment , uh , the the reason is really for me uh , to have an opportunity to talk to some other researchers in the field . and and so i 'll just n sort of give you a real quick introduction to what i 'm working on , and um , i just hope that you have some comments or , maybe you 're interested in it to find out more , and and so i 'll be uh , happy to talk to you and and uh , i 'd also like to find out some more and and maybe i 'll just walk around the office and and then and ask some some questions , uh , in a couple days . so i 'll be here for uh , tomorrow and then uh , the remainder of uh , next week . ok , so , um , what i started looking at , uh , to begin with is just uh , content management systems uh , i i in general . so um , uh what 's uh sort of the state of the art there is to um uh you have a bunch of of uh documents or learning units or learning objects , um , and you store meta - data uh , associate to them . so there 's some international standards like the i - triple - e , uh there 's an i - triple - e , lon standard , and um , these fields are pretty straightforward , you have uh author information , you have uh , size information , format information and so on . uh , but they 're two uh fields that are um , more interesting . one is uh you store keywords associated with the uh with the document , and one is uh , you have sort of a , um , well , what is the document about ? so it 's some sort of taxonomic uh , ordering of of the of the units . now , if you sort of put on your semantic glasses , uh you say , well that 's not all that easy , because there 's an implicit um , uh , assumption behind that is that uh , all the users of this system share the same interpretation of the keyword and the same interpretation of uh , whichever taxonomy is used , and uh , i think that 's a that 's a very that 's a key point of these systems and they sort of always brush over this real quickly without really elaborating much of that and uh as a matter of fact , the only thing that m apparently really works out so far are library ordering codes , which are very , very coarse grain , so you have some like , science , biology , and then but that 's really all that we have at the moment . so i think there 's a huge , um , uh need for improvement there . now , what this uh a standard like this would give us is we could um , sort of uh with a search engine just query uh , different repositories all over the world . but we ca n't really um , so what i 'm what i try to do is um , to have um , uh so . so the scenario is the following , you you 're working on some sort of project and you encounter a certain problem . now , what what we have at our university quite a bit is that uh , students um , try to u program a certain assignment , for example , they always run into the same problems , uh , and they always come running to us , and they 'll say why 's it not it 's not working , and we always give out the same answer , so we thought , well , it 'd be nice to have a system that could sort of take care of this , and so , what i want to build is basically a a smart f a q system . now , what you uh need to do here is you need to provide some context information which is more elaborate than `` i 'm looking for this and this and this keyword . `` so . and i think that i do n't need to tell you this . i 'm i 'm sure you have the same when when somebody utters a sentence in a certain , uh , context it , and and the same sentence in another context makes a huge difference . so , i want to be able to model information like , um , so in the in the context of in the context of developing distributed systems , of a at a computer science school , um , what kind of software is the person using , which homework assignment is he or she working on at the moment , um , maybe what 's the background of that student 's um , which um , which error message was encountered . so this sort of information i think should be transmitted , uh , when a certain document is retrieved . now , um , basically giving this um uh so we somehow need to have a formalized um , way of writing this down basically , and that 's where the shared interpretation of of certain terms and keywords comes in again . and , using this and some some uh , knowledge about the domain i think you can do some some simple inferences . like you know that when somebody 's working about uh , working on on servlets for example , he 's using java , cuz servlets are used are written in java . so some some inferences like that , now , um , u using this you can infer more information , and you could then match this to the meta - data of um off the documents you 're you 're searching against . so , uh what i wan na do is basically have some sort of um given these inputs , and then i can compute how many documents match , and use this as a metric in the search . now , what i plan to do is i want to uh sort of do a uh uh try to improve the quality of the search results , and i want to do this by having a depth uh , um , um steepest descent approach . so if i knew which operating system the person was working on , would this improve my search result ? and and having uh , uh a symbolic formalized model of this i could simply compute that , and find out which um which questions are worth um , asking . and that 's what i then propagate back to the user , and and sort of try to optimize the search in this way . now , the big problem that i 'm facing right now is um , it 's fairly easy to hack up a system uh quickly , that that works in the small domain , but the problem is obviously the scalability . and uh uh , so robert was mentioning uh , earlier today is that uh , microsoft for example with their printer set up program has a bayesian network , which does exactly this , but there you face a problem that these are very hard to extend . and so , uh what i 'm what i try to do is basically try to model this uh , in a way that you could really combine uh , knowledge from very different sources , and and um , sort of looking into some of the ideas that the semantic web community uh , came up with . trying to to have uh , an approach how to integrate s uh certain uh representation of certain concepts and also some computational rules , um , what you can do with those . um . what i 'm also looking into is a probabilistic approach into this because document retrievals is a very fuzzy procedure , so it 's probably not that easy to simply have a symbolic uh , computational model . that that probably is n't expressive enough . so . so that 's another thing , um , which i think you 're also uh , uh looking into right now . and then um , uh sort of as an add - on to this whole idea , um , uh that would be now , depending on what the search engine or the content repository depending on which um , uh , which uh , rules and which ontologies it it uses , or basically its view of the world , uh you can get very different results . so it might ma make a lot of sense to actually query a lot of different search engines . and there you could have an idea where you actually have sort of a a peer to peer approach , where we 're all sort of carrying around our individual bookshelves , and um , if you have a question about a homework , it 's probably makes sense to ask somebody who 's in your class with you , sort of the guru in the certain area , rather than going to some yahoo - like uh , search engine . so these are some of the just in a nutshell , some of the ideas . and i think a lot of the even though it 's a it 's a very different domain , but i think a lot of the , um , issues are are fairly similar . so . ok . grad a: and so some of the i do n't know how much you know about the larger heidelberg project , i are you grad c: uh i know , yeah i know abou about it . grad a: so it seems like a lot of some of the issues are the same . it 's like , um , you know , the c context - based factors that influence how you interpret , grad c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad a: um , s how to interpret . in in this case , infer in in knowing wanting to know what kinds of things to ask . we - we 've kind of talked about that , but we have n't worried too much about that end of the discourse . grad b: mm - hmm . grad a: but maybe you guys had that in the previous models . grad b: well , in a in one t one s mmm , small difference in a in a way , is that he does n't have to come up with an answer , but he wants to point to the places w w grad a: documents that have the answers . grad c: yeah , so . so i 'm i 'm not i 'm not building an expert grad a: mm - hmm . grad c: uh , i want to build a smart librarian , basically grad a: right . right . grad c: that can point you to the right reference . i do n't wan na compute the answer , so it 's a little bit easier for me . grad b: well . uh , you have to s still m understand what the content says about itself , and then match it to what you think the informational needs grad a: mm - hmm . grad c: mm - hmm . grad a: so you also do n't have to figure out what the content is . you 're just taking the keywords as a topic text , as grad c: i i assume that that the there will be learning systems that that tag their their content . grad a: ok . right . grad c: and um , um , m @ @ and basically what i what i envision is that you rather than just supplying a bunch of keywords you could basically for for an faq for example you could state sort of like a logic condition , when this document applies . so `` this document explains how to set up your uh , mail account on linux `` or something like this . grad a: mm - hmm . grad c: so . so something something very specific that you can then but the i think that the key point with these uh , learning systems is that uh , a learning system is only as good as uh the amount of content it it carries . grad a: mmm , mm - hmm . grad c: you can have the best learning system with the best search interface , if there 's no content inside of it , it 's not very useful . so i think ultimately because um , uh developing these these rules and these inference uh inferences i think is very costly , so um , uh i think you must be able to reuse some some existing um , domain domain information , or or or ontologies that that uh other people wrote and then try to integrate them , and then also search the entire web basically , rather than just the small uh , content management system . grad a: ok . mm - hmm . grad c: so i think that 's that 's crucial for for the success of or @ @ grad a: so , you 're not i guess i 'm trying to figure out how how it maps to the kinds of things that we 've talked about in this group , and , actually associated groups , grad c: mm - hmm . grad a: cuz some of us do pretty detailed linguistic analyses , and i 'm guessing that you you wo n't be doing that ? ok . grad c: no . grad a: just checking . so , ok . grad b: hmm . grad c: no . grad a: so , you take the query , and and professor f: on the other hand , uh , framenet could well be useful . so do you know the framenet story ? grad c: um , yeah . uh , not not too much , professor f: ok . grad c: but uh , professor f: oh . th - that 's another thing you might wan na look into while you 're here . grad c: i have a rough overview . professor f: because , um , you know , the standard story is that keyworks keywords evoke frames , and the frames may well give you additional keywords or uh , if you know that that that a a bunch of keywords uh , indicate a frame , then you can find documents that actually have the whole frame , rather th than just uh , individual grad c: mmm . mmm . professor f: so there 's a lot of stuff , and people are looking at that . most of the work here is just trying to get the frames right . there 's linguists and stuff and there 's a lot of it and they 're they 're busily working away . but there are some application efforts trying to exploit it . and this looks t it seems to be that this is a place where you might be able to do that . grad c: yeah . yeah . yeah . i 'm sure i could learn a lot about um , yeah , just how to how to come up with these structures , grad a: mmm . grad c: cuz it 's it 's very easy to whip up something quickly , but it maybe then makes sense to to me , but not to anybody else , and and if we want to share and integrate things , they must well , they must be well designed really . grad b: remember the uh , prashant story ? professor f: right . grad b: the absolutely no no linguistic background person that the iu sent over here . professor f: right . grad b: and andreas and i tried to come up wi or we had come up actually with a eh with him working on an interface for framenet , as it was back then , that would p do some of the work for this machine , professor f: right . yeah . grad b: which uh , never got done because prashant found a happy occupation professor f: w yeah , i know , i mean it it he w he did w what what he did was much more s sensible for him . grad b: which in the absolutely . yeah . professor f: i think uh , grad b: but so i 'm just saying , the uh , we had that idea professor f: you know yeah . the idea was there . yeah , ok . grad b: uh to to exploit framenet there as well . professor f: yeah . grad a: hmm . grad b: and um . professor f: yeah , actually you guys never grad b: and srini 's doing information extraction also , right ? professor f: right . grad b: with that framenet base . grad c: mmm . professor f: yeah . grad b: mm - hmm . professor f: so you you guys never sent anybody else from i u . grad c: except except prashant ? professor f: you were y no yeah . grad c: um , professor f: uh , this was supposedly an exchange program , and i we you know , it 's fine . we do n't care , but it just i 'm a little surprised that uh , andreas did n't come up with anyone else he wanted to send . grad a: hmm . grad c: uh i do n't know , i mean the uh professor f: alright . i mean i had forgotten a i to be honest with you , i 'd totally forgotten we had a program . grad b: uh it 's in the program ? grad c: uh i i think it 's it 's really the lack of students uh , at iu at the moment . professor f: yeah . yeah . no , no . there was a whole co there was a little contract signed . it was yeah . grad c: yeah , yeah . i think it 's ju it 's more the lack of of students , really , and w we have all these sponsors that are always sort of eager to get some teams . professor f: yeah , i know . grad a: mmm . professor f: right . grad c: but professor f: right . grad c: well i mean if if i were a student , i 'd love to come here , rather than work for some german company , or professor f: yeah . right . grad b: you are being recorded right now , so beware . professor f: oh , right ! grad c: well , i did n't say anybody to anything to offend well , except for the sponsors maybe , but professor f: right . anyway . right . so i thi tha that 's that 's one of the things that might be worth looking into while you 're here . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: uh , unfortunately , srini , who is heavily involved in daml and all this sort of stuff is himself out of town . grad c: mm - hmm . well i 'll go to the uh , semantic web workshop , uh , in two weeks . professor f: right , and yeah , for for some reason he 's not doing that . grad a: yeah . well , he had other things to do . professor f: i do n't know why he @ @ oh , i , who knows ? grad a: the uh professor f: anyway , s yeah , you 'll see you 'll certainly see a lot of the people there . grad a: the other person i thought of is dan gildea ? because he did some work on topic spotting professor f: yeah . st - statistical stuff . that would be a very good idea . grad a: w um , which is , i mean , you i mean . i do n't depending on how well you wan na integrate with that end , grad c: mm - hmm . grad a: you know , like , taking the data and fig you said the learning systems that figure out we there 's someone in icsi who actually has been working on has worked on that kinda stuff , and he 's worked with frame net , so you could talk to him about , you know , both of those things at once . grad c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad a: so . and he just finished writing a draft of his thesis . so . i u dan gildea , gildea . grad c: so , uh , who is that again ? grad a: and , he 's in one of the rooms on the fifth floor and stuff , grad b: who ? i can take you to his office . grad a: and grad b: it 's just around the corner . grad c: ok , great . grad a: hmm . well , if you fal solve the problem , hope you can do one for us too . professor f: alright , was there anything else for this ? one of these times soon we 're gon na hear about construal . grad b: yeah . i 'm sure . i have um i think it was november two thousand three or some no . wh - i had something in my calendar . professor f: oh , ok . right . grad b: um , grad e: wait a second . that 's a long way away . professor f: good thinking ! grad b: uh well , maybe i can i can bribe my way out of this . so . so i did some double checking and it seems like spring break in two thousand one . grad a: talk about changing the topic . grad b: no . professor f: well , no , but he 's he 's he 's he 's as you said , he 's , like the state legislature , he 's trying to offer us bribes . grad a: at least this is a private meeting . right , exactly , ok , that 's the link . grad b: this uh oh , they refused the budget again ? is it so about citris ? yeah , still nothing . professor f: uh , this this this t the s we 're , uh , involved in a literally three hundred million dollar uh , program . uh , with the state of california . and , the state of california is now a month and a half behind its legis its legally required date to approve a budget . so the budget has not been approved . and two days ago there 's two l you know , so , two branches of legislature . one branch approved it , grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: and , um , yesterdayday { comment } there was this uh uh i thought that the other branch would just approve it , but now there 's actually a little back sliding to people who who approved it got flak from there , eh anyway . so , um oh ! i have to tell you a wonderful story about this , ok ? and then we 'll go . so , i it turns out i wound up having lunch today with a guy named tom kalil . kill kalil . and , uh , he now works at berkeley . in fact he 's hired to run a lot of citris , even though we do n't have the money they so they 've been hiring people right and left , so , uh , they think the money 's coming . so and he was , i think , the chief staffer to clinton on technology matters . he was in the white house , i do n't remember what he was saying . a anyway , like that . and , is now doing all the politics for citris , but also , has a uh , a lot of interest in uh , actually doing things for society , so digital divide and stuff like that . so that 's s interesting to me but maybe not to you . but the really interesting thing was , he st he s he s said something about , you know i 'm interested in things that have high social multiplier , something that is of great social value . he said , `` for example `` , this was his only example , `` if you had a adult literacy program that was as good as an individual tutor , and as compelling as a video game , then that would have a huge social impact `` . i said , `` oh great ! that 's a good problem to work on . `` anyway . so it was nice that uh , he 's got this view , of a , that 's what you should try to do , and b , uh , language would be a good way to do it . grad a: mmm . definitely . professor f: so that 's so anyway , that 's the end of the story . grad a: but for adults and not for the children . professor f: this was yeah . i did n't push him on the ch on the child thing , grad a: uh - huh . professor f: but , uh , you know , a again , if if you if you grad a: oh . professor f: um , and this was this was literacy , which actually is somewhat different problem . grad a: mm - hmm . professor f: maybe easier . i do n't know . so this is reading , rather than teaching another project we started on , and and did n't get funded for was , uh , to try to build an automatic tutoring program , for kids whose first language was n't english . which is like half the school population in california . something like that , grad a: mm - hmm . professor f: is n't it ? yeah . so , enormous problem in california , and the idea was if we 're so smart about language understanding and speech understanding , could n't we build uh , programs that would be tutors for the kids . we think we could . anyway . so so but this is a slightly different problem , grad a: mm - hmm . professor f: and um , i know none of us have the spare time to look at it right now , but it i it 's it 's interesting and i may um , talk to him some more about is em somebody already doing this , and stuff like that . so anyway , that was that was today 's little story . grad e: hmm . grad b: ok . so i i did manage to get pull my head out of the sling by sidetracking into citris , professor f: no , no . grad b: but uh or a temporarily putting it out of the sling professor f: right . grad b: but , i i 'll volunteer to put it right back in by stating that i am n uh among some other things in the process of writing up stuff that we have been discussing at our daily meetings , professor f: yeah . grad b: and also revising , thanks for all the comments , the c the original construal proposal . and , if i put one and one together , i may end up with a number that 's greater than one and that i i can potentially present once you get back . grad a: greater than two ? professor f: you 're good . grad b: nnn . { comment } s sometimes , you know the sum is not uh less than the grad a: uh , right , right . professor f: right . right . anyway . yeah , so ok , so that 'd be great , but i 'd i think it 's it 's time again , right ? grad b: absolutely . yeah . professor f: yeah . ok . grad b: but um , and hopefully all sidetracking um , other things will have disappeared , soon . professor f: good . yep . done ?

the first phase of the data collection has finished . there is a new wizard for phase two , during which subjects will be given more complex scenarios . also finished are the modifications on smartkom : the remaining glitches will take no more than a day to iron out . a big part of the meeting was covered by the presentation of the prm of the proposed system .

what is the future for data collection ? </s> grad a: why ? grad d: um . grad e: i 'm known . i grad a: no , cuz she already told me it , before she told you . grad e: no , she told me a long time ago . she told me she told me like two weeks ago . grad a: oh , well , it does n't matter what time . grad b: ok . you know how to toggle the display width function grad a: well maybe she had n't just started transcribing me yet . grad d: wow . grad a: anyway . grad d: what is it ? grad e: let me explain something to you . grad d: um , grad e: my laugh is better than yours . grad d: there . grad a: i beg to differ . grad b: yo . grad d: um , ok . grad a: but you have to say something genuinely funny before you 'll get an example . grad e: yeah . grad d: the thing is i do n't know how to get to the next page . here . grad e: no . you should be at least be self - satisfied enough to laugh at your own jokes . grad d: actually i thought grad a: no , it 's a different laugh . grad d: there . grad a: ooh , wow ! grad d: how weird . grad e: oh ! holy mackerel . grad a: wow . whoa ! grad d: what ? ! oh . ok . i was n't even doing anything . ok . grad a: uh . grad e: eva 's got a laptop , she 's trying to show it off . grad d: that was r actually robert 's idea . but anyhow . um professor f: o k . so , here we are . grad e: once again . professor f: once again , right , together . um , so we have n't had a meeting for a while , and and probably wo n't have one next week , i think a number of people are gone . um , so robert , why do n't you bring us up to date on where we are with edu ? grad b: um , uh in a in a smaller group we had uh , talked and decided about continuation of the data collection . so fey 's time with us is almost officially over , and she brought us some thirty subjects and , t collected the data , and ten dialogues have been transcribed and can be looked at . if you 're interested in that , talk to me . um , and we found another uh , cogsci student who 's interested in playing wizard for us . here we 're gon na make it a little bit more complicated for the subjects , uh this round . she 's actually suggested to look um , at the psychology department students , because they have to partake in two experiments in order to fulfill some requirements . so they have to be subjected , { comment } before they can actually graduate . and um , we want to design it so that they really have to think about having some time , two days , for example , to plan certain things and figure out which can be done at what time , and , um , sort of package the whole thing in a in a re in a few more complicated um , structure . that 's for the data collection . as for smartkom , i 'm the last smartkom meeting i mentioned that we have some problems with the synthesis , which as of this morning should be resolved . and , so , professor f: good . grad b: `` should be `` means they are n't yet , but but i think i have the info now that i need . plus , johno and i are meeting tomorrow , so maybe uh uh , when tomorrow is over , we 're done . and ha n hav we 'll never have to look at it again maybe it 'll take some more time , to be realistic , but at least we 're we 're seeing the end of the tunnel there . that was that . um , the uh , uh i do n't think we need to discuss the formalism that 'll be done officially s once we 're done . um , something happened , in on eva 's side with the prm that we 're gon na look at today , and um , we have a visitor from bruchsal from the international university . andreas , i think you 've met everyone except nancy . grad a: sorry . hi . hi . grad c: yeah . grad b: hi . hi . grad a: so when you said `` andreas `` i thought you were talking about stolcke . grad b: and , um , grad a: now i know that we are n't , ok . grad b: andy , you actually go by andy , right ? oh , ok . grad c: yeah . grad b: eh grad c: cuz there is another andreas around , grad a: hmm . grad c: so , to avoid some confusion . grad b: that will be reuter ? oh , ok . grad c: yeah . grad b: so my scientific director of the eml is also the dean of the international university , one of his many occupations that just contributes to the fact that he is very occupied . and , um , the um , he @ @ might tell us a little bit about what he 's actually doing , and why it is s somewhat related , and by uh using maybe some of the same technologies that we are using . and um . was that enough of an update ? professor f: i think so . grad b: in what order shall we proceed ? grad d: ok . grad b: maybe you have your on - line grad d: uh , yeah , sure . um , so , i 've be just been looking at , um , ack ! what are you doing ? yeah . ok . um , i 've been looking at the prm stuff . um , so , this is , sort of like the latest thing i have on it , and i sorta constructed a couple of classes . like , a user class , a site class , and and you know , a time , a route , and then and a query class . and i tried to simplify it down a little bit , so that i can actually um , look at it more . it 's the same paper that i gave to jerry last time . um , so basically i took out a lot of stuff , a lot of the decision nodes , and then tried to the red lines on the , um , graph are the um , relations between the different um , classes . like , a user has like , a query , and then , also has , you know um , reference slots to its preferences , um , the special needs and , you know , money , and the user interest . and so this is more or less similar to the flat bayes - net that i have , you know , with the input nodes and all that . and so i tried to construct the dependency models , and a lot of these stuff i got from the flat bayes - net , and what they depend on , and it turns out , you know , the cpt 's are really big , if i do that , so i tried to see how i can do , um put in the computational nodes in between . and what that would look like in a prm . and so i ended up making several classes actually , you know , a class of with different attributes that are the intermediate nodes , and one of them is like , time affordability money affordability , site availability , and the travel compatibility . and so some of these classes are s some of these attributes only depend on stuff from , say , the user , or s f just from , i do n't know , like the site . s like , um , these here , it 's only like , user , but , if you look at travel compatibility for each of these factors , you need to look at a pair of , you know , what the um , preference of the user is versus , you know , what type of an event it is , or you know , which form of transportation the user has and whether , you know , the onsite parking matters to the user , in that case . and that makes the scenario a little different in a prm , because , um , then you have one - user objects and potentially you can have many different sites in in mind . and so for each of the site you 'll come up with this rating , of travel compatibility . and , they all depend on the same users , but different sites , and that makes a i 'm tr i w i wa have been trying to see whether the prm would make it more efficient if we do inferencing like that . and so , i guess you end up having fewer number of nodes than in a flat bayes - net , cuz otherwise you would c well , it 's probably the same . but um , no , you would definitely have be able to re - use , like , um , all the user stuff , and not not having to recompute a lot of the stuff , because it 's all from the user side . so if you changed sites , you you can , you know , save some work on that . but , you know , in the case where , it depends on both the user and the site , then i 'm still having a hard time trying to see how um , using the prm will help . um , so anyhow , using those intermediate nodes then , this this would be the class that represent the intermediate nodes . and that would basically it 's just another class in the model , with , you know , references to the user and the site and the time . and then , after you group them together this no the dependencies would of the queries would be reduced to this . and so , you know , it 's easier to specify the cpt and all . um , so i think that 's about as far as i 've gone on the prm stuff . professor f: well grad d: right . professor f: no . so y you did n't yet tell us what the output is . grad d: the output . professor f: so what decisions does this make ? grad d: ok . so it only makes two decisions , in this model . and one is basically how desirable a site is meaning , um , how good it matches the needs of a user . and the other is the mode of the visit , whether th it 's the eva decision . um , so , instead of um , doing a lot of , you know , computation about , you know , which one site it wants of the user wants to visit , i 'll come well , try to come up with like , sort of a list of sites . and for each site , you know , where h how how well it fits , and basically a rating of how well it fits and what to do with it . so . anything else i missed ? professor f: so that was pretty quick . she 's ac uh uh eva 's got a little write - up on it that uh , probably gives the the details to anybody who needs them . um , so the you you did n't look at all yet to see if there 's anybody has a implementation . grad d: no , not yet , um professor f: ok . so one so one of the questions , you know , about these p r ms is grad d: mm - hmm . professor f: uh , we are n't gon na build our own interpreter , so if if we ca n't find one , then we uh , go off and do something else and wait until s one appears . uh , so one of the things that eva 's gon na do over the next few weeks is see if we can track that down . uh , the people at stanford write papers as if they had one , but , um , we 'll see . so w anyway . so that 's a a major open issue . if there is an interpreter , it looks like you know , what eva 's got should run and we should be able to actually um , try to solve , you know , the problems , to actually take the data , and do it . uh , and we 'll see . uh , i actually think it is cleaner , and the ability to instantiate , you know , instance of people and sites and stuff , um , will help in the expression . whether the inference gets any faster or not i do n't know . uh , it would n't surprise me if it if it does n't . grad d: mm - hmm . professor f: you know , it 's the same kind of information . i think there are things that you can express this way which you ca n't express in a normal belief - net , uh , without going to some incredible hacking of sort of rebuilding it on the fly . i mean , the notion of instantiating your el elements from the ontology and stuff fits this very nicely and does n't fit very well into the extended belief - net . so that was one of the main reasons for doing it . um . i do n't know . so , uh , people who have thought about the problem , like robert i it looked to me like if { comment } eva were able to come up with a you know , value for each of a number of uh , sites plus its eva thing , that a travel planner should be able to take it from there . and you know , with some other information about how much time the person has and whatever , and then plan a route . grad b: um - hmm , um , well , first of all uh , uh , great looks , mu much cleaner , nnn , nnn , certain certain beauty in it , so , um , if beauty is truth , then , uh we 're in good shape . but , the um , as , uh , mentioned before we probably should look at t the details . so if you have a write - up then uh , i 'd love to read it grad d: mm - hmm . grad b: and uh because , um , i can you go all the way back to the the very top ? grad d: yeah . grad b: um , uh these @ @ { comment } these w w when these are instantiated they take on the same values ? that we had before ? grad d: i ca n't really see the whole thing . grad b: or are they have they changed , in a sense ? grad d: well i think i basically leave them to similar things . grad b: uh - huh . grad d: some of the things might that might be different , maybe like are that the hours for the site . grad b: hmm . grad d: and , eventually i meant that to mean whether they 're open at this hour or not . grad b: uh - huh . grad d: and status would be , you know , more or less like , whether they 're under construction , and and or stuff like that . grad b: and the , uh , other question i would have is that presumably , from the way the stanford people talk about it , you can put the probabilities also on the relations . if grad d: which is the structural uncertainty ? professor f: yeah . yeah , i that 's that i think was actually in the previous the ubenth stuff . i do n't remember whether they carried that over to this or not , grad a: mmm . professor f: uh , structural uncertainty . grad b: it 's sort of in the definition or in the in daphne 's definition of a prm is that classes and relations , professor f: ok . grad b: and you 're gon na have cpt 's over the classes and their relations . professor f: alright . grad b: more uncertainty , or or professor f: uh , grad b: i should say . grad d: i remember them learning when , you know , you do n't know the structure for sure , professor f: yeah . grad d: but i do n't remember reading how you specify grad b: yeah , that would be exactly my question . professor f: right . grad d: wh to start with . yeah . grad b: well grad d: yeah . professor f: yeah . so , uh , the the plan is is when daphne gets back , we 'll get in touch and supposedly , um , we 'll actually get s deep seriously connected to to their work and grad b: yep . professor f: somebody 'll uh , you know if it 's a group meeting once a week probably someone 'll go down and , whatever . so , we 'll actually figure all this out . grad b: ok . ok . then i think the w long term perspective is is pretty clear . we get rocking and rolling on this again , once we get a package , if , when , and how , then this becomes foregrounded grad d: mm - hmm . grad b: profiled , focused , again . grad e: designated ? grad a: of course . grad b: and um , until then we 'll come up with a something that 's @ @ { comment } that 's way more complicated for you . right ? grad d: ok . grad b: because this was laughingly easy , right ? grad d: actually i had to take out a lot of the complicated stuff , cuz i i made it really complicated in the beginning , and jerry was like , `` this is just too much `` . professor f: yeah . so , um , you could , from this , go on and say suppose there 's a group of people traveling together and you wanted to plan something that somehow , with some pareto optimal uh , uh , thing for grad a: that 's good . that 's definitely a job for artificial intelligence . professor f: uh , or grad a: except for humans ca n't really solve it either , so . grad b: well that 's not not even something humans yeah . professor f: right . right . well that 's the that would that would be a uh , you could sell it , as a grad a: yeah . professor f: ok , eh you do n't have to fight about this , just give your preferences to the grad a: and then you can blame the computer . professor f: w exactly . grad a: so . grad b: hmm . but what does it uh would a pote potential result be to to split up and never talk to each other again ? you know . grad a: that should be one of them . grad b: yeah . professor f: yeah . right . grad e: that 'd be nice . grad a: mmm . professor f: anyway . so . so there i there are some some u uh , you know , uh , elaborations of this that you could try to put in to this structure , but i do n't think it 's worth it now . because we 're gon na see what what else uh what else we 're gon na do . anyway . but uh , it 's good , yeah and and there were a couple other ideas of of uh , things for eva to look at in in the interim . grad b: good . then , we can move on and see what andreas has got out his sleeve . or andy , for that matter ? grad c: ok . so uh , uh , well , thanks for having me here , first of all . um , so maybe just a a little background on on my visit . so , uh , i 'm not really involved in any project , that 's uh that 's relevant to you uh , a at the moment , uh , the the reason is really for me uh , to have an opportunity to talk to some other researchers in the field . and and so i 'll just n sort of give you a real quick introduction to what i 'm working on , and um , i just hope that you have some comments or , maybe you 're interested in it to find out more , and and so i 'll be uh , happy to talk to you and and uh , i 'd also like to find out some more and and maybe i 'll just walk around the office and and then and ask some some questions , uh , in a couple days . so i 'll be here for uh , tomorrow and then uh , the remainder of uh , next week . ok , so , um , what i started looking at , uh , to begin with is just uh , content management systems uh , i i in general . so um , uh what 's uh sort of the state of the art there is to um uh you have a bunch of of uh documents or learning units or learning objects , um , and you store meta - data uh , associate to them . so there 's some international standards like the i - triple - e , uh there 's an i - triple - e , lon standard , and um , these fields are pretty straightforward , you have uh author information , you have uh , size information , format information and so on . uh , but they 're two uh fields that are um , more interesting . one is uh you store keywords associated with the uh with the document , and one is uh , you have sort of a , um , well , what is the document about ? so it 's some sort of taxonomic uh , ordering of of the of the units . now , if you sort of put on your semantic glasses , uh you say , well that 's not all that easy , because there 's an implicit um , uh , assumption behind that is that uh , all the users of this system share the same interpretation of the keyword and the same interpretation of uh , whichever taxonomy is used , and uh , i think that 's a that 's a very that 's a key point of these systems and they sort of always brush over this real quickly without really elaborating much of that and uh as a matter of fact , the only thing that m apparently really works out so far are library ordering codes , which are very , very coarse grain , so you have some like , science , biology , and then but that 's really all that we have at the moment . so i think there 's a huge , um , uh need for improvement there . now , what this uh a standard like this would give us is we could um , sort of uh with a search engine just query uh , different repositories all over the world . but we ca n't really um , so what i 'm what i try to do is um , to have um , uh so . so the scenario is the following , you you 're working on some sort of project and you encounter a certain problem . now , what what we have at our university quite a bit is that uh , students um , try to u program a certain assignment , for example , they always run into the same problems , uh , and they always come running to us , and they 'll say why 's it not it 's not working , and we always give out the same answer , so we thought , well , it 'd be nice to have a system that could sort of take care of this , and so , what i want to build is basically a a smart f a q system . now , what you uh need to do here is you need to provide some context information which is more elaborate than `` i 'm looking for this and this and this keyword . `` so . and i think that i do n't need to tell you this . i 'm i 'm sure you have the same when when somebody utters a sentence in a certain , uh , context it , and and the same sentence in another context makes a huge difference . so , i want to be able to model information like , um , so in the in the context of in the context of developing distributed systems , of a at a computer science school , um , what kind of software is the person using , which homework assignment is he or she working on at the moment , um , maybe what 's the background of that student 's um , which um , which error message was encountered . so this sort of information i think should be transmitted , uh , when a certain document is retrieved . now , um , basically giving this um uh so we somehow need to have a formalized um , way of writing this down basically , and that 's where the shared interpretation of of certain terms and keywords comes in again . and , using this and some some uh , knowledge about the domain i think you can do some some simple inferences . like you know that when somebody 's working about uh , working on on servlets for example , he 's using java , cuz servlets are used are written in java . so some some inferences like that , now , um , u using this you can infer more information , and you could then match this to the meta - data of um off the documents you 're you 're searching against . so , uh what i wan na do is basically have some sort of um given these inputs , and then i can compute how many documents match , and use this as a metric in the search . now , what i plan to do is i want to uh sort of do a uh uh try to improve the quality of the search results , and i want to do this by having a depth uh , um , um steepest descent approach . so if i knew which operating system the person was working on , would this improve my search result ? and and having uh , uh a symbolic formalized model of this i could simply compute that , and find out which um which questions are worth um , asking . and that 's what i then propagate back to the user , and and sort of try to optimize the search in this way . now , the big problem that i 'm facing right now is um , it 's fairly easy to hack up a system uh quickly , that that works in the small domain , but the problem is obviously the scalability . and uh uh , so robert was mentioning uh , earlier today is that uh , microsoft for example with their printer set up program has a bayesian network , which does exactly this , but there you face a problem that these are very hard to extend . and so , uh what i 'm what i try to do is basically try to model this uh , in a way that you could really combine uh , knowledge from very different sources , and and um , sort of looking into some of the ideas that the semantic web community uh , came up with . trying to to have uh , an approach how to integrate s uh certain uh representation of certain concepts and also some computational rules , um , what you can do with those . um . what i 'm also looking into is a probabilistic approach into this because document retrievals is a very fuzzy procedure , so it 's probably not that easy to simply have a symbolic uh , computational model . that that probably is n't expressive enough . so . so that 's another thing , um , which i think you 're also uh , uh looking into right now . and then um , uh sort of as an add - on to this whole idea , um , uh that would be now , depending on what the search engine or the content repository depending on which um , uh , which uh , rules and which ontologies it it uses , or basically its view of the world , uh you can get very different results . so it might ma make a lot of sense to actually query a lot of different search engines . and there you could have an idea where you actually have sort of a a peer to peer approach , where we 're all sort of carrying around our individual bookshelves , and um , if you have a question about a homework , it 's probably makes sense to ask somebody who 's in your class with you , sort of the guru in the certain area , rather than going to some yahoo - like uh , search engine . so these are some of the just in a nutshell , some of the ideas . and i think a lot of the even though it 's a it 's a very different domain , but i think a lot of the , um , issues are are fairly similar . so . ok . grad a: and so some of the i do n't know how much you know about the larger heidelberg project , i are you grad c: uh i know , yeah i know abou about it . grad a: so it seems like a lot of some of the issues are the same . it 's like , um , you know , the c context - based factors that influence how you interpret , grad c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad a: um , s how to interpret . in in this case , infer in in knowing wanting to know what kinds of things to ask . we - we 've kind of talked about that , but we have n't worried too much about that end of the discourse . grad b: mm - hmm . grad a: but maybe you guys had that in the previous models . grad b: well , in a in one t one s mmm , small difference in a in a way , is that he does n't have to come up with an answer , but he wants to point to the places w w grad a: documents that have the answers . grad c: yeah , so . so i 'm i 'm not i 'm not building an expert grad a: mm - hmm . grad c: uh , i want to build a smart librarian , basically grad a: right . right . grad c: that can point you to the right reference . i do n't wan na compute the answer , so it 's a little bit easier for me . grad b: well . uh , you have to s still m understand what the content says about itself , and then match it to what you think the informational needs grad a: mm - hmm . grad c: mm - hmm . grad a: so you also do n't have to figure out what the content is . you 're just taking the keywords as a topic text , as grad c: i i assume that that the there will be learning systems that that tag their their content . grad a: ok . right . grad c: and um , um , m @ @ and basically what i what i envision is that you rather than just supplying a bunch of keywords you could basically for for an faq for example you could state sort of like a logic condition , when this document applies . so `` this document explains how to set up your uh , mail account on linux `` or something like this . grad a: mm - hmm . grad c: so . so something something very specific that you can then but the i think that the key point with these uh , learning systems is that uh , a learning system is only as good as uh the amount of content it it carries . grad a: mmm , mm - hmm . grad c: you can have the best learning system with the best search interface , if there 's no content inside of it , it 's not very useful . so i think ultimately because um , uh developing these these rules and these inference uh inferences i think is very costly , so um , uh i think you must be able to reuse some some existing um , domain domain information , or or or ontologies that that uh other people wrote and then try to integrate them , and then also search the entire web basically , rather than just the small uh , content management system . grad a: ok . mm - hmm . grad c: so i think that 's that 's crucial for for the success of or @ @ grad a: so , you 're not i guess i 'm trying to figure out how how it maps to the kinds of things that we 've talked about in this group , and , actually associated groups , grad c: mm - hmm . grad a: cuz some of us do pretty detailed linguistic analyses , and i 'm guessing that you you wo n't be doing that ? ok . grad c: no . grad a: just checking . so , ok . grad b: hmm . grad c: no . grad a: so , you take the query , and and professor f: on the other hand , uh , framenet could well be useful . so do you know the framenet story ? grad c: um , yeah . uh , not not too much , professor f: ok . grad c: but uh , professor f: oh . th - that 's another thing you might wan na look into while you 're here . grad c: i have a rough overview . professor f: because , um , you know , the standard story is that keyworks keywords evoke frames , and the frames may well give you additional keywords or uh , if you know that that that a a bunch of keywords uh , indicate a frame , then you can find documents that actually have the whole frame , rather th than just uh , individual grad c: mmm . mmm . professor f: so there 's a lot of stuff , and people are looking at that . most of the work here is just trying to get the frames right . there 's linguists and stuff and there 's a lot of it and they 're they 're busily working away . but there are some application efforts trying to exploit it . and this looks t it seems to be that this is a place where you might be able to do that . grad c: yeah . yeah . yeah . i 'm sure i could learn a lot about um , yeah , just how to how to come up with these structures , grad a: mmm . grad c: cuz it 's it 's very easy to whip up something quickly , but it maybe then makes sense to to me , but not to anybody else , and and if we want to share and integrate things , they must well , they must be well designed really . grad b: remember the uh , prashant story ? professor f: right . grad b: the absolutely no no linguistic background person that the iu sent over here . professor f: right . grad b: and andreas and i tried to come up wi or we had come up actually with a eh with him working on an interface for framenet , as it was back then , that would p do some of the work for this machine , professor f: right . yeah . grad b: which uh , never got done because prashant found a happy occupation professor f: w yeah , i know , i mean it it he w he did w what what he did was much more s sensible for him . grad b: which in the absolutely . yeah . professor f: i think uh , grad b: but so i 'm just saying , the uh , we had that idea professor f: you know yeah . the idea was there . yeah , ok . grad b: uh to to exploit framenet there as well . professor f: yeah . grad a: hmm . grad b: and um . professor f: yeah , actually you guys never grad b: and srini 's doing information extraction also , right ? professor f: right . grad b: with that framenet base . grad c: mmm . professor f: yeah . grad b: mm - hmm . professor f: so you you guys never sent anybody else from i u . grad c: except except prashant ? professor f: you were y no yeah . grad c: um , professor f: uh , this was supposedly an exchange program , and i we you know , it 's fine . we do n't care , but it just i 'm a little surprised that uh , andreas did n't come up with anyone else he wanted to send . grad a: hmm . grad c: uh i do n't know , i mean the uh professor f: alright . i mean i had forgotten a i to be honest with you , i 'd totally forgotten we had a program . grad b: uh it 's in the program ? grad c: uh i i think it 's it 's really the lack of students uh , at iu at the moment . professor f: yeah . yeah . no , no . there was a whole co there was a little contract signed . it was yeah . grad c: yeah , yeah . i think it 's ju it 's more the lack of of students , really , and w we have all these sponsors that are always sort of eager to get some teams . professor f: yeah , i know . grad a: mmm . professor f: right . grad c: but professor f: right . grad c: well i mean if if i were a student , i 'd love to come here , rather than work for some german company , or professor f: yeah . right . grad b: you are being recorded right now , so beware . professor f: oh , right ! grad c: well , i did n't say anybody to anything to offend well , except for the sponsors maybe , but professor f: right . anyway . right . so i thi tha that 's that 's one of the things that might be worth looking into while you 're here . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: uh , unfortunately , srini , who is heavily involved in daml and all this sort of stuff is himself out of town . grad c: mm - hmm . well i 'll go to the uh , semantic web workshop , uh , in two weeks . professor f: right , and yeah , for for some reason he 's not doing that . grad a: yeah . well , he had other things to do . professor f: i do n't know why he @ @ oh , i , who knows ? grad a: the uh professor f: anyway , s yeah , you 'll see you 'll certainly see a lot of the people there . grad a: the other person i thought of is dan gildea ? because he did some work on topic spotting professor f: yeah . st - statistical stuff . that would be a very good idea . grad a: w um , which is , i mean , you i mean . i do n't depending on how well you wan na integrate with that end , grad c: mm - hmm . grad a: you know , like , taking the data and fig you said the learning systems that figure out we there 's someone in icsi who actually has been working on has worked on that kinda stuff , and he 's worked with frame net , so you could talk to him about , you know , both of those things at once . grad c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad a: so . and he just finished writing a draft of his thesis . so . i u dan gildea , gildea . grad c: so , uh , who is that again ? grad a: and , he 's in one of the rooms on the fifth floor and stuff , grad b: who ? i can take you to his office . grad a: and grad b: it 's just around the corner . grad c: ok , great . grad a: hmm . well , if you fal solve the problem , hope you can do one for us too . professor f: alright , was there anything else for this ? one of these times soon we 're gon na hear about construal . grad b: yeah . i 'm sure . i have um i think it was november two thousand three or some no . wh - i had something in my calendar . professor f: oh , ok . right . grad b: um , grad e: wait a second . that 's a long way away . professor f: good thinking ! grad b: uh well , maybe i can i can bribe my way out of this . so . so i did some double checking and it seems like spring break in two thousand one . grad a: talk about changing the topic . grad b: no . professor f: well , no , but he 's he 's he 's he 's as you said , he 's , like the state legislature , he 's trying to offer us bribes . grad a: at least this is a private meeting . right , exactly , ok , that 's the link . grad b: this uh oh , they refused the budget again ? is it so about citris ? yeah , still nothing . professor f: uh , this this this t the s we 're , uh , involved in a literally three hundred million dollar uh , program . uh , with the state of california . and , the state of california is now a month and a half behind its legis its legally required date to approve a budget . so the budget has not been approved . and two days ago there 's two l you know , so , two branches of legislature . one branch approved it , grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: and , um , yesterdayday { comment } there was this uh uh i thought that the other branch would just approve it , but now there 's actually a little back sliding to people who who approved it got flak from there , eh anyway . so , um oh ! i have to tell you a wonderful story about this , ok ? and then we 'll go . so , i it turns out i wound up having lunch today with a guy named tom kalil . kill kalil . and , uh , he now works at berkeley . in fact he 's hired to run a lot of citris , even though we do n't have the money they so they 've been hiring people right and left , so , uh , they think the money 's coming . so and he was , i think , the chief staffer to clinton on technology matters . he was in the white house , i do n't remember what he was saying . a anyway , like that . and , is now doing all the politics for citris , but also , has a uh , a lot of interest in uh , actually doing things for society , so digital divide and stuff like that . so that 's s interesting to me but maybe not to you . but the really interesting thing was , he st he s he s said something about , you know i 'm interested in things that have high social multiplier , something that is of great social value . he said , `` for example `` , this was his only example , `` if you had a adult literacy program that was as good as an individual tutor , and as compelling as a video game , then that would have a huge social impact `` . i said , `` oh great ! that 's a good problem to work on . `` anyway . so it was nice that uh , he 's got this view , of a , that 's what you should try to do , and b , uh , language would be a good way to do it . grad a: mmm . definitely . professor f: so that 's so anyway , that 's the end of the story . grad a: but for adults and not for the children . professor f: this was yeah . i did n't push him on the ch on the child thing , grad a: uh - huh . professor f: but , uh , you know , a again , if if you if you grad a: oh . professor f: um , and this was this was literacy , which actually is somewhat different problem . grad a: mm - hmm . professor f: maybe easier . i do n't know . so this is reading , rather than teaching another project we started on , and and did n't get funded for was , uh , to try to build an automatic tutoring program , for kids whose first language was n't english . which is like half the school population in california . something like that , grad a: mm - hmm . professor f: is n't it ? yeah . so , enormous problem in california , and the idea was if we 're so smart about language understanding and speech understanding , could n't we build uh , programs that would be tutors for the kids . we think we could . anyway . so so but this is a slightly different problem , grad a: mm - hmm . professor f: and um , i know none of us have the spare time to look at it right now , but it i it 's it 's interesting and i may um , talk to him some more about is em somebody already doing this , and stuff like that . so anyway , that was that was today 's little story . grad e: hmm . grad b: ok . so i i did manage to get pull my head out of the sling by sidetracking into citris , professor f: no , no . grad b: but uh or a temporarily putting it out of the sling professor f: right . grad b: but , i i 'll volunteer to put it right back in by stating that i am n uh among some other things in the process of writing up stuff that we have been discussing at our daily meetings , professor f: yeah . grad b: and also revising , thanks for all the comments , the c the original construal proposal . and , if i put one and one together , i may end up with a number that 's greater than one and that i i can potentially present once you get back . grad a: greater than two ? professor f: you 're good . grad b: nnn . { comment } s sometimes , you know the sum is not uh less than the grad a: uh , right , right . professor f: right . right . anyway . yeah , so ok , so that 'd be great , but i 'd i think it 's it 's time again , right ? grad b: absolutely . yeah . professor f: yeah . ok . grad b: but um , and hopefully all sidetracking um , other things will have disappeared , soon . professor f: good . yep . done ?

as the data collection is going into its second phase , more complex scenarios will be used to generate more intricate dialogues . subjects can be recruited from within the psychology department students , since such participation in experiments is compulsory in their syllabus .

summarize this segmen </s> grad a: why ? grad d: um . grad e: i 'm known . i grad a: no , cuz she already told me it , before she told you . grad e: no , she told me a long time ago . she told me she told me like two weeks ago . grad a: oh , well , it does n't matter what time . grad b: ok . you know how to toggle the display width function grad a: well maybe she had n't just started transcribing me yet . grad d: wow . grad a: anyway . grad d: what is it ? grad e: let me explain something to you . grad d: um , grad e: my laugh is better than yours . grad d: there . grad a: i beg to differ . grad b: yo . grad d: um , ok . grad a: but you have to say something genuinely funny before you 'll get an example . grad e: yeah . grad d: the thing is i do n't know how to get to the next page . here . grad e: no . you should be at least be self - satisfied enough to laugh at your own jokes . grad d: actually i thought grad a: no , it 's a different laugh . grad d: there . grad a: ooh , wow ! grad d: how weird . grad e: oh ! holy mackerel . grad a: wow . whoa ! grad d: what ? ! oh . ok . i was n't even doing anything . ok . grad a: uh . grad e: eva 's got a laptop , she 's trying to show it off . grad d: that was r actually robert 's idea . but anyhow . um professor f: o k . so , here we are . grad e: once again . professor f: once again , right , together . um , so we have n't had a meeting for a while , and and probably wo n't have one next week , i think a number of people are gone . um , so robert , why do n't you bring us up to date on where we are with edu ? grad b: um , uh in a in a smaller group we had uh , talked and decided about continuation of the data collection . so fey 's time with us is almost officially over , and she brought us some thirty subjects and , t collected the data , and ten dialogues have been transcribed and can be looked at . if you 're interested in that , talk to me . um , and we found another uh , cogsci student who 's interested in playing wizard for us . here we 're gon na make it a little bit more complicated for the subjects , uh this round . she 's actually suggested to look um , at the psychology department students , because they have to partake in two experiments in order to fulfill some requirements . so they have to be subjected , { comment } before they can actually graduate . and um , we want to design it so that they really have to think about having some time , two days , for example , to plan certain things and figure out which can be done at what time , and , um , sort of package the whole thing in a in a re in a few more complicated um , structure . that 's for the data collection . as for smartkom , i 'm the last smartkom meeting i mentioned that we have some problems with the synthesis , which as of this morning should be resolved . and , so , professor f: good . grad b: `` should be `` means they are n't yet , but but i think i have the info now that i need . plus , johno and i are meeting tomorrow , so maybe uh uh , when tomorrow is over , we 're done . and ha n hav we 'll never have to look at it again maybe it 'll take some more time , to be realistic , but at least we 're we 're seeing the end of the tunnel there . that was that . um , the uh , uh i do n't think we need to discuss the formalism that 'll be done officially s once we 're done . um , something happened , in on eva 's side with the prm that we 're gon na look at today , and um , we have a visitor from bruchsal from the international university . andreas , i think you 've met everyone except nancy . grad a: sorry . hi . hi . grad c: yeah . grad b: hi . hi . grad a: so when you said `` andreas `` i thought you were talking about stolcke . grad b: and , um , grad a: now i know that we are n't , ok . grad b: andy , you actually go by andy , right ? oh , ok . grad c: yeah . grad b: eh grad c: cuz there is another andreas around , grad a: hmm . grad c: so , to avoid some confusion . grad b: that will be reuter ? oh , ok . grad c: yeah . grad b: so my scientific director of the eml is also the dean of the international university , one of his many occupations that just contributes to the fact that he is very occupied . and , um , the um , he @ @ might tell us a little bit about what he 's actually doing , and why it is s somewhat related , and by uh using maybe some of the same technologies that we are using . and um . was that enough of an update ? professor f: i think so . grad b: in what order shall we proceed ? grad d: ok . grad b: maybe you have your on - line grad d: uh , yeah , sure . um , so , i 've be just been looking at , um , ack ! what are you doing ? yeah . ok . um , i 've been looking at the prm stuff . um , so , this is , sort of like the latest thing i have on it , and i sorta constructed a couple of classes . like , a user class , a site class , and and you know , a time , a route , and then and a query class . and i tried to simplify it down a little bit , so that i can actually um , look at it more . it 's the same paper that i gave to jerry last time . um , so basically i took out a lot of stuff , a lot of the decision nodes , and then tried to the red lines on the , um , graph are the um , relations between the different um , classes . like , a user has like , a query , and then , also has , you know um , reference slots to its preferences , um , the special needs and , you know , money , and the user interest . and so this is more or less similar to the flat bayes - net that i have , you know , with the input nodes and all that . and so i tried to construct the dependency models , and a lot of these stuff i got from the flat bayes - net , and what they depend on , and it turns out , you know , the cpt 's are really big , if i do that , so i tried to see how i can do , um put in the computational nodes in between . and what that would look like in a prm . and so i ended up making several classes actually , you know , a class of with different attributes that are the intermediate nodes , and one of them is like , time affordability money affordability , site availability , and the travel compatibility . and so some of these classes are s some of these attributes only depend on stuff from , say , the user , or s f just from , i do n't know , like the site . s like , um , these here , it 's only like , user , but , if you look at travel compatibility for each of these factors , you need to look at a pair of , you know , what the um , preference of the user is versus , you know , what type of an event it is , or you know , which form of transportation the user has and whether , you know , the onsite parking matters to the user , in that case . and that makes the scenario a little different in a prm , because , um , then you have one - user objects and potentially you can have many different sites in in mind . and so for each of the site you 'll come up with this rating , of travel compatibility . and , they all depend on the same users , but different sites , and that makes a i 'm tr i w i wa have been trying to see whether the prm would make it more efficient if we do inferencing like that . and so , i guess you end up having fewer number of nodes than in a flat bayes - net , cuz otherwise you would c well , it 's probably the same . but um , no , you would definitely have be able to re - use , like , um , all the user stuff , and not not having to recompute a lot of the stuff , because it 's all from the user side . so if you changed sites , you you can , you know , save some work on that . but , you know , in the case where , it depends on both the user and the site , then i 'm still having a hard time trying to see how um , using the prm will help . um , so anyhow , using those intermediate nodes then , this this would be the class that represent the intermediate nodes . and that would basically it 's just another class in the model , with , you know , references to the user and the site and the time . and then , after you group them together this no the dependencies would of the queries would be reduced to this . and so , you know , it 's easier to specify the cpt and all . um , so i think that 's about as far as i 've gone on the prm stuff . professor f: well grad d: right . professor f: no . so y you did n't yet tell us what the output is . grad d: the output . professor f: so what decisions does this make ? grad d: ok . so it only makes two decisions , in this model . and one is basically how desirable a site is meaning , um , how good it matches the needs of a user . and the other is the mode of the visit , whether th it 's the eva decision . um , so , instead of um , doing a lot of , you know , computation about , you know , which one site it wants of the user wants to visit , i 'll come well , try to come up with like , sort of a list of sites . and for each site , you know , where h how how well it fits , and basically a rating of how well it fits and what to do with it . so . anything else i missed ? professor f: so that was pretty quick . she 's ac uh uh eva 's got a little write - up on it that uh , probably gives the the details to anybody who needs them . um , so the you you did n't look at all yet to see if there 's anybody has a implementation . grad d: no , not yet , um professor f: ok . so one so one of the questions , you know , about these p r ms is grad d: mm - hmm . professor f: uh , we are n't gon na build our own interpreter , so if if we ca n't find one , then we uh , go off and do something else and wait until s one appears . uh , so one of the things that eva 's gon na do over the next few weeks is see if we can track that down . uh , the people at stanford write papers as if they had one , but , um , we 'll see . so w anyway . so that 's a a major open issue . if there is an interpreter , it looks like you know , what eva 's got should run and we should be able to actually um , try to solve , you know , the problems , to actually take the data , and do it . uh , and we 'll see . uh , i actually think it is cleaner , and the ability to instantiate , you know , instance of people and sites and stuff , um , will help in the expression . whether the inference gets any faster or not i do n't know . uh , it would n't surprise me if it if it does n't . grad d: mm - hmm . professor f: you know , it 's the same kind of information . i think there are things that you can express this way which you ca n't express in a normal belief - net , uh , without going to some incredible hacking of sort of rebuilding it on the fly . i mean , the notion of instantiating your el elements from the ontology and stuff fits this very nicely and does n't fit very well into the extended belief - net . so that was one of the main reasons for doing it . um . i do n't know . so , uh , people who have thought about the problem , like robert i it looked to me like if { comment } eva were able to come up with a you know , value for each of a number of uh , sites plus its eva thing , that a travel planner should be able to take it from there . and you know , with some other information about how much time the person has and whatever , and then plan a route . grad b: um - hmm , um , well , first of all uh , uh , great looks , mu much cleaner , nnn , nnn , certain certain beauty in it , so , um , if beauty is truth , then , uh we 're in good shape . but , the um , as , uh , mentioned before we probably should look at t the details . so if you have a write - up then uh , i 'd love to read it grad d: mm - hmm . grad b: and uh because , um , i can you go all the way back to the the very top ? grad d: yeah . grad b: um , uh these @ @ { comment } these w w when these are instantiated they take on the same values ? that we had before ? grad d: i ca n't really see the whole thing . grad b: or are they have they changed , in a sense ? grad d: well i think i basically leave them to similar things . grad b: uh - huh . grad d: some of the things might that might be different , maybe like are that the hours for the site . grad b: hmm . grad d: and , eventually i meant that to mean whether they 're open at this hour or not . grad b: uh - huh . grad d: and status would be , you know , more or less like , whether they 're under construction , and and or stuff like that . grad b: and the , uh , other question i would have is that presumably , from the way the stanford people talk about it , you can put the probabilities also on the relations . if grad d: which is the structural uncertainty ? professor f: yeah . yeah , i that 's that i think was actually in the previous the ubenth stuff . i do n't remember whether they carried that over to this or not , grad a: mmm . professor f: uh , structural uncertainty . grad b: it 's sort of in the definition or in the in daphne 's definition of a prm is that classes and relations , professor f: ok . grad b: and you 're gon na have cpt 's over the classes and their relations . professor f: alright . grad b: more uncertainty , or or professor f: uh , grad b: i should say . grad d: i remember them learning when , you know , you do n't know the structure for sure , professor f: yeah . grad d: but i do n't remember reading how you specify grad b: yeah , that would be exactly my question . professor f: right . grad d: wh to start with . yeah . grad b: well grad d: yeah . professor f: yeah . so , uh , the the plan is is when daphne gets back , we 'll get in touch and supposedly , um , we 'll actually get s deep seriously connected to to their work and grad b: yep . professor f: somebody 'll uh , you know if it 's a group meeting once a week probably someone 'll go down and , whatever . so , we 'll actually figure all this out . grad b: ok . ok . then i think the w long term perspective is is pretty clear . we get rocking and rolling on this again , once we get a package , if , when , and how , then this becomes foregrounded grad d: mm - hmm . grad b: profiled , focused , again . grad e: designated ? grad a: of course . grad b: and um , until then we 'll come up with a something that 's @ @ { comment } that 's way more complicated for you . right ? grad d: ok . grad b: because this was laughingly easy , right ? grad d: actually i had to take out a lot of the complicated stuff , cuz i i made it really complicated in the beginning , and jerry was like , `` this is just too much `` . professor f: yeah . so , um , you could , from this , go on and say suppose there 's a group of people traveling together and you wanted to plan something that somehow , with some pareto optimal uh , uh , thing for grad a: that 's good . that 's definitely a job for artificial intelligence . professor f: uh , or grad a: except for humans ca n't really solve it either , so . grad b: well that 's not not even something humans yeah . professor f: right . right . well that 's the that would that would be a uh , you could sell it , as a grad a: yeah . professor f: ok , eh you do n't have to fight about this , just give your preferences to the grad a: and then you can blame the computer . professor f: w exactly . grad a: so . grad b: hmm . but what does it uh would a pote potential result be to to split up and never talk to each other again ? you know . grad a: that should be one of them . grad b: yeah . professor f: yeah . right . grad e: that 'd be nice . grad a: mmm . professor f: anyway . so . so there i there are some some u uh , you know , uh , elaborations of this that you could try to put in to this structure , but i do n't think it 's worth it now . because we 're gon na see what what else uh what else we 're gon na do . anyway . but uh , it 's good , yeah and and there were a couple other ideas of of uh , things for eva to look at in in the interim . grad b: good . then , we can move on and see what andreas has got out his sleeve . or andy , for that matter ? grad c: ok . so uh , uh , well , thanks for having me here , first of all . um , so maybe just a a little background on on my visit . so , uh , i 'm not really involved in any project , that 's uh that 's relevant to you uh , a at the moment , uh , the the reason is really for me uh , to have an opportunity to talk to some other researchers in the field . and and so i 'll just n sort of give you a real quick introduction to what i 'm working on , and um , i just hope that you have some comments or , maybe you 're interested in it to find out more , and and so i 'll be uh , happy to talk to you and and uh , i 'd also like to find out some more and and maybe i 'll just walk around the office and and then and ask some some questions , uh , in a couple days . so i 'll be here for uh , tomorrow and then uh , the remainder of uh , next week . ok , so , um , what i started looking at , uh , to begin with is just uh , content management systems uh , i i in general . so um , uh what 's uh sort of the state of the art there is to um uh you have a bunch of of uh documents or learning units or learning objects , um , and you store meta - data uh , associate to them . so there 's some international standards like the i - triple - e , uh there 's an i - triple - e , lon standard , and um , these fields are pretty straightforward , you have uh author information , you have uh , size information , format information and so on . uh , but they 're two uh fields that are um , more interesting . one is uh you store keywords associated with the uh with the document , and one is uh , you have sort of a , um , well , what is the document about ? so it 's some sort of taxonomic uh , ordering of of the of the units . now , if you sort of put on your semantic glasses , uh you say , well that 's not all that easy , because there 's an implicit um , uh , assumption behind that is that uh , all the users of this system share the same interpretation of the keyword and the same interpretation of uh , whichever taxonomy is used , and uh , i think that 's a that 's a very that 's a key point of these systems and they sort of always brush over this real quickly without really elaborating much of that and uh as a matter of fact , the only thing that m apparently really works out so far are library ordering codes , which are very , very coarse grain , so you have some like , science , biology , and then but that 's really all that we have at the moment . so i think there 's a huge , um , uh need for improvement there . now , what this uh a standard like this would give us is we could um , sort of uh with a search engine just query uh , different repositories all over the world . but we ca n't really um , so what i 'm what i try to do is um , to have um , uh so . so the scenario is the following , you you 're working on some sort of project and you encounter a certain problem . now , what what we have at our university quite a bit is that uh , students um , try to u program a certain assignment , for example , they always run into the same problems , uh , and they always come running to us , and they 'll say why 's it not it 's not working , and we always give out the same answer , so we thought , well , it 'd be nice to have a system that could sort of take care of this , and so , what i want to build is basically a a smart f a q system . now , what you uh need to do here is you need to provide some context information which is more elaborate than `` i 'm looking for this and this and this keyword . `` so . and i think that i do n't need to tell you this . i 'm i 'm sure you have the same when when somebody utters a sentence in a certain , uh , context it , and and the same sentence in another context makes a huge difference . so , i want to be able to model information like , um , so in the in the context of in the context of developing distributed systems , of a at a computer science school , um , what kind of software is the person using , which homework assignment is he or she working on at the moment , um , maybe what 's the background of that student 's um , which um , which error message was encountered . so this sort of information i think should be transmitted , uh , when a certain document is retrieved . now , um , basically giving this um uh so we somehow need to have a formalized um , way of writing this down basically , and that 's where the shared interpretation of of certain terms and keywords comes in again . and , using this and some some uh , knowledge about the domain i think you can do some some simple inferences . like you know that when somebody 's working about uh , working on on servlets for example , he 's using java , cuz servlets are used are written in java . so some some inferences like that , now , um , u using this you can infer more information , and you could then match this to the meta - data of um off the documents you 're you 're searching against . so , uh what i wan na do is basically have some sort of um given these inputs , and then i can compute how many documents match , and use this as a metric in the search . now , what i plan to do is i want to uh sort of do a uh uh try to improve the quality of the search results , and i want to do this by having a depth uh , um , um steepest descent approach . so if i knew which operating system the person was working on , would this improve my search result ? and and having uh , uh a symbolic formalized model of this i could simply compute that , and find out which um which questions are worth um , asking . and that 's what i then propagate back to the user , and and sort of try to optimize the search in this way . now , the big problem that i 'm facing right now is um , it 's fairly easy to hack up a system uh quickly , that that works in the small domain , but the problem is obviously the scalability . and uh uh , so robert was mentioning uh , earlier today is that uh , microsoft for example with their printer set up program has a bayesian network , which does exactly this , but there you face a problem that these are very hard to extend . and so , uh what i 'm what i try to do is basically try to model this uh , in a way that you could really combine uh , knowledge from very different sources , and and um , sort of looking into some of the ideas that the semantic web community uh , came up with . trying to to have uh , an approach how to integrate s uh certain uh representation of certain concepts and also some computational rules , um , what you can do with those . um . what i 'm also looking into is a probabilistic approach into this because document retrievals is a very fuzzy procedure , so it 's probably not that easy to simply have a symbolic uh , computational model . that that probably is n't expressive enough . so . so that 's another thing , um , which i think you 're also uh , uh looking into right now . and then um , uh sort of as an add - on to this whole idea , um , uh that would be now , depending on what the search engine or the content repository depending on which um , uh , which uh , rules and which ontologies it it uses , or basically its view of the world , uh you can get very different results . so it might ma make a lot of sense to actually query a lot of different search engines . and there you could have an idea where you actually have sort of a a peer to peer approach , where we 're all sort of carrying around our individual bookshelves , and um , if you have a question about a homework , it 's probably makes sense to ask somebody who 's in your class with you , sort of the guru in the certain area , rather than going to some yahoo - like uh , search engine . so these are some of the just in a nutshell , some of the ideas . and i think a lot of the even though it 's a it 's a very different domain , but i think a lot of the , um , issues are are fairly similar . so . ok . grad a: and so some of the i do n't know how much you know about the larger heidelberg project , i are you grad c: uh i know , yeah i know abou about it . grad a: so it seems like a lot of some of the issues are the same . it 's like , um , you know , the c context - based factors that influence how you interpret , grad c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad a: um , s how to interpret . in in this case , infer in in knowing wanting to know what kinds of things to ask . we - we 've kind of talked about that , but we have n't worried too much about that end of the discourse . grad b: mm - hmm . grad a: but maybe you guys had that in the previous models . grad b: well , in a in one t one s mmm , small difference in a in a way , is that he does n't have to come up with an answer , but he wants to point to the places w w grad a: documents that have the answers . grad c: yeah , so . so i 'm i 'm not i 'm not building an expert grad a: mm - hmm . grad c: uh , i want to build a smart librarian , basically grad a: right . right . grad c: that can point you to the right reference . i do n't wan na compute the answer , so it 's a little bit easier for me . grad b: well . uh , you have to s still m understand what the content says about itself , and then match it to what you think the informational needs grad a: mm - hmm . grad c: mm - hmm . grad a: so you also do n't have to figure out what the content is . you 're just taking the keywords as a topic text , as grad c: i i assume that that the there will be learning systems that that tag their their content . grad a: ok . right . grad c: and um , um , m @ @ and basically what i what i envision is that you rather than just supplying a bunch of keywords you could basically for for an faq for example you could state sort of like a logic condition , when this document applies . so `` this document explains how to set up your uh , mail account on linux `` or something like this . grad a: mm - hmm . grad c: so . so something something very specific that you can then but the i think that the key point with these uh , learning systems is that uh , a learning system is only as good as uh the amount of content it it carries . grad a: mmm , mm - hmm . grad c: you can have the best learning system with the best search interface , if there 's no content inside of it , it 's not very useful . so i think ultimately because um , uh developing these these rules and these inference uh inferences i think is very costly , so um , uh i think you must be able to reuse some some existing um , domain domain information , or or or ontologies that that uh other people wrote and then try to integrate them , and then also search the entire web basically , rather than just the small uh , content management system . grad a: ok . mm - hmm . grad c: so i think that 's that 's crucial for for the success of or @ @ grad a: so , you 're not i guess i 'm trying to figure out how how it maps to the kinds of things that we 've talked about in this group , and , actually associated groups , grad c: mm - hmm . grad a: cuz some of us do pretty detailed linguistic analyses , and i 'm guessing that you you wo n't be doing that ? ok . grad c: no . grad a: just checking . so , ok . grad b: hmm . grad c: no . grad a: so , you take the query , and and professor f: on the other hand , uh , framenet could well be useful . so do you know the framenet story ? grad c: um , yeah . uh , not not too much , professor f: ok . grad c: but uh , professor f: oh . th - that 's another thing you might wan na look into while you 're here . grad c: i have a rough overview . professor f: because , um , you know , the standard story is that keyworks keywords evoke frames , and the frames may well give you additional keywords or uh , if you know that that that a a bunch of keywords uh , indicate a frame , then you can find documents that actually have the whole frame , rather th than just uh , individual grad c: mmm . mmm . professor f: so there 's a lot of stuff , and people are looking at that . most of the work here is just trying to get the frames right . there 's linguists and stuff and there 's a lot of it and they 're they 're busily working away . but there are some application efforts trying to exploit it . and this looks t it seems to be that this is a place where you might be able to do that . grad c: yeah . yeah . yeah . i 'm sure i could learn a lot about um , yeah , just how to how to come up with these structures , grad a: mmm . grad c: cuz it 's it 's very easy to whip up something quickly , but it maybe then makes sense to to me , but not to anybody else , and and if we want to share and integrate things , they must well , they must be well designed really . grad b: remember the uh , prashant story ? professor f: right . grad b: the absolutely no no linguistic background person that the iu sent over here . professor f: right . grad b: and andreas and i tried to come up wi or we had come up actually with a eh with him working on an interface for framenet , as it was back then , that would p do some of the work for this machine , professor f: right . yeah . grad b: which uh , never got done because prashant found a happy occupation professor f: w yeah , i know , i mean it it he w he did w what what he did was much more s sensible for him . grad b: which in the absolutely . yeah . professor f: i think uh , grad b: but so i 'm just saying , the uh , we had that idea professor f: you know yeah . the idea was there . yeah , ok . grad b: uh to to exploit framenet there as well . professor f: yeah . grad a: hmm . grad b: and um . professor f: yeah , actually you guys never grad b: and srini 's doing information extraction also , right ? professor f: right . grad b: with that framenet base . grad c: mmm . professor f: yeah . grad b: mm - hmm . professor f: so you you guys never sent anybody else from i u . grad c: except except prashant ? professor f: you were y no yeah . grad c: um , professor f: uh , this was supposedly an exchange program , and i we you know , it 's fine . we do n't care , but it just i 'm a little surprised that uh , andreas did n't come up with anyone else he wanted to send . grad a: hmm . grad c: uh i do n't know , i mean the uh professor f: alright . i mean i had forgotten a i to be honest with you , i 'd totally forgotten we had a program . grad b: uh it 's in the program ? grad c: uh i i think it 's it 's really the lack of students uh , at iu at the moment . professor f: yeah . yeah . no , no . there was a whole co there was a little contract signed . it was yeah . grad c: yeah , yeah . i think it 's ju it 's more the lack of of students , really , and w we have all these sponsors that are always sort of eager to get some teams . professor f: yeah , i know . grad a: mmm . professor f: right . grad c: but professor f: right . grad c: well i mean if if i were a student , i 'd love to come here , rather than work for some german company , or professor f: yeah . right . grad b: you are being recorded right now , so beware . professor f: oh , right ! grad c: well , i did n't say anybody to anything to offend well , except for the sponsors maybe , but professor f: right . anyway . right . so i thi tha that 's that 's one of the things that might be worth looking into while you 're here . grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: uh , unfortunately , srini , who is heavily involved in daml and all this sort of stuff is himself out of town . grad c: mm - hmm . well i 'll go to the uh , semantic web workshop , uh , in two weeks . professor f: right , and yeah , for for some reason he 's not doing that . grad a: yeah . well , he had other things to do . professor f: i do n't know why he @ @ oh , i , who knows ? grad a: the uh professor f: anyway , s yeah , you 'll see you 'll certainly see a lot of the people there . grad a: the other person i thought of is dan gildea ? because he did some work on topic spotting professor f: yeah . st - statistical stuff . that would be a very good idea . grad a: w um , which is , i mean , you i mean . i do n't depending on how well you wan na integrate with that end , grad c: mm - hmm . grad a: you know , like , taking the data and fig you said the learning systems that figure out we there 's someone in icsi who actually has been working on has worked on that kinda stuff , and he 's worked with frame net , so you could talk to him about , you know , both of those things at once . grad c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad a: so . and he just finished writing a draft of his thesis . so . i u dan gildea , gildea . grad c: so , uh , who is that again ? grad a: and , he 's in one of the rooms on the fifth floor and stuff , grad b: who ? i can take you to his office . grad a: and grad b: it 's just around the corner . grad c: ok , great . grad a: hmm . well , if you fal solve the problem , hope you can do one for us too . professor f: alright , was there anything else for this ? one of these times soon we 're gon na hear about construal . grad b: yeah . i 'm sure . i have um i think it was november two thousand three or some no . wh - i had something in my calendar . professor f: oh , ok . right . grad b: um , grad e: wait a second . that 's a long way away . professor f: good thinking ! grad b: uh well , maybe i can i can bribe my way out of this . so . so i did some double checking and it seems like spring break in two thousand one . grad a: talk about changing the topic . grad b: no . professor f: well , no , but he 's he 's he 's he 's as you said , he 's , like the state legislature , he 's trying to offer us bribes . grad a: at least this is a private meeting . right , exactly , ok , that 's the link . grad b: this uh oh , they refused the budget again ? is it so about citris ? yeah , still nothing . professor f: uh , this this this t the s we 're , uh , involved in a literally three hundred million dollar uh , program . uh , with the state of california . and , the state of california is now a month and a half behind its legis its legally required date to approve a budget . so the budget has not been approved . and two days ago there 's two l you know , so , two branches of legislature . one branch approved it , grad c: mm - hmm . professor f: and , um , yesterdayday { comment } there was this uh uh i thought that the other branch would just approve it , but now there 's actually a little back sliding to people who who approved it got flak from there , eh anyway . so , um oh ! i have to tell you a wonderful story about this , ok ? and then we 'll go . so , i it turns out i wound up having lunch today with a guy named tom kalil . kill kalil . and , uh , he now works at berkeley . in fact he 's hired to run a lot of citris , even though we do n't have the money they so they 've been hiring people right and left , so , uh , they think the money 's coming . so and he was , i think , the chief staffer to clinton on technology matters . he was in the white house , i do n't remember what he was saying . a anyway , like that . and , is now doing all the politics for citris , but also , has a uh , a lot of interest in uh , actually doing things for society , so digital divide and stuff like that . so that 's s interesting to me but maybe not to you . but the really interesting thing was , he st he s he s said something about , you know i 'm interested in things that have high social multiplier , something that is of great social value . he said , `` for example `` , this was his only example , `` if you had a adult literacy program that was as good as an individual tutor , and as compelling as a video game , then that would have a huge social impact `` . i said , `` oh great ! that 's a good problem to work on . `` anyway . so it was nice that uh , he 's got this view , of a , that 's what you should try to do , and b , uh , language would be a good way to do it . grad a: mmm . definitely . professor f: so that 's so anyway , that 's the end of the story . grad a: but for adults and not for the children . professor f: this was yeah . i did n't push him on the ch on the child thing , grad a: uh - huh . professor f: but , uh , you know , a again , if if you if you grad a: oh . professor f: um , and this was this was literacy , which actually is somewhat different problem . grad a: mm - hmm . professor f: maybe easier . i do n't know . so this is reading , rather than teaching another project we started on , and and did n't get funded for was , uh , to try to build an automatic tutoring program , for kids whose first language was n't english . which is like half the school population in california . something like that , grad a: mm - hmm . professor f: is n't it ? yeah . so , enormous problem in california , and the idea was if we 're so smart about language understanding and speech understanding , could n't we build uh , programs that would be tutors for the kids . we think we could . anyway . so so but this is a slightly different problem , grad a: mm - hmm . professor f: and um , i know none of us have the spare time to look at it right now , but it i it 's it 's interesting and i may um , talk to him some more about is em somebody already doing this , and stuff like that . so anyway , that was that was today 's little story . grad e: hmm . grad b: ok . so i i did manage to get pull my head out of the sling by sidetracking into citris , professor f: no , no . grad b: but uh or a temporarily putting it out of the sling professor f: right . grad b: but , i i 'll volunteer to put it right back in by stating that i am n uh among some other things in the process of writing up stuff that we have been discussing at our daily meetings , professor f: yeah . grad b: and also revising , thanks for all the comments , the c the original construal proposal . and , if i put one and one together , i may end up with a number that 's greater than one and that i i can potentially present once you get back . grad a: greater than two ? professor f: you 're good . grad b: nnn . { comment } s sometimes , you know the sum is not uh less than the grad a: uh , right , right . professor f: right . right . anyway . yeah , so ok , so that 'd be great , but i 'd i think it 's it 's time again , right ? grad b: absolutely . yeah . professor f: yeah . ok . grad b: but um , and hopefully all sidetracking um , other things will have disappeared , soon . professor f: good . yep . done ?

an alternative representation of the bayes-net , it depicts context features as classes , and dependencies as relations between them . the current outputs show the desirability of a site , as well as its eva mode . the fact that this model allows for instantiations of classes fits the research purposes much better than the extended belief-net .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> marketing: hello . project manager: marketing: dang it . project manager: and then you have to place your laptop exactly on the marked spot . marketing: alright . user interface: project manager: it 's important to place your laptop exactly on the marked spot over here . user interface: okay . no , that 's okay . joost , your mouse . marketing: what ? user interface: no mouse needed ? marketing: i 've got a touch-pad . user interface: mm . marketing: do you know how how i can wake it up ? user interface: a touch-pad ? marketing: no , my laptop . user interface: slap it . marketing: you with your brilliant ideas . i do n't know if i can touch the power button . do you know how how i can wake it up ? user interface: is project manager: no . yeah . try the power button . marketing: oh . user interface: marketing: come on , move it . user interface: um marketing: now , wake up , bitch . project manager: huh . user interface: f_ five . f_ five . industrial designer: i 've lost my screen . uh marketing: yeah , so did i . user interface: i do n't . marketing: i closed it . that wasn that was n't very smart , i guess . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: come on . get back to me . yes . industrial designer: yes . user interface: industrial designer: i closed the marketing: i closed it . user interface: you 've got your name . project manager: yeah , my name is name . marketing: no , i did n't restart it , i just closed it . yes . user interface: hope it working . marketing: alright . industrial designer: no . user interface: never close your laptop . project manager: yeah ? everybody 's ready ? user interface: yeah . marketing: great . thanks . project manager: great . well , welcome to the kick-off meeting . i uh forgot to put my name over here , it 's uh it 's martin . uh , so you all know . marketing: project manager: well , this is the agenda for today . well , the opening is what i 'm doing right now . user interface: project manager: uh , we gon na do some acquaintance acquaintance things . uh give some um examples of the tool training , project plan discussion and the closing . we have twenty five minutes . okay , the project aim is to design a new remote control . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh , some of the oje objectives are that is has to be original , trendy , and user-friendly . so now we all know what our user interface: okay . project manager: goal is . um , i oh forget i forget the whole acquaintance part , but we we all know each other . we all know each other 's names . joost , guido , antek . user interface: what is your name ? marketing: yes . industrial designer: yes . antek . user interface: antek ahmet . and joost . project manager: okay . i think we uh al already uh been through that part . user interface: okay . yeah . project manager: okay , it consists of uh three levels of design . uh we begin with the functional design , then we go to the conceptual design and the detailed design . every uh level of design consists of some individual work , and we uh close it with a meeting . you all received an email with a example of our explanation of what uh the particular level of design uh means to the different uh functions , and uh you p you probably read that already , so i do n't have to tell you about that . user interface: yes . marketing: yes . project manager: okay , first we 're gon na um uh gon na try some different things with the tools we have over here , so you get acquainted with these uh um uh meeting tools . we have the smart-boards , uh the thes those two boards . this is the presentation boards , wh which one i 'm using right now . you can uh um there 's a document folder called um the sh shared document folder . you can upload your uh documents to that folder and then you can open them over here , so you can do your powerpoint presentations on this screen . we also have the white-board . uh , we 're gon na skip through th user interface: can we see the white-board on our laptops ? project manager: no , no . just on the on the screen over there . user interface: no , i saw i saw the file , the smart-board that x_b_k_ but project manager: oh , no . probably is , but i do n't know if the software is on the laptop . is is if it 's mainly a thing for in the meeting , so i do n't think it 's i do n't know if it 's important . user interface: okay . project manager: this an explanation of the smart-boards . there is a tool-bar over here . it 's quite simple . you have the the pen function , eraser function . it 's like a very simple uh paint application . uh , we well , we use the same file during uh the whole day , and uh you can make new sheets by uh by pu puttin pressing on the blank button . it works like this . oh . if pen is selected , yes . user interface: marketing: project manager: oh , no no . user interface: with that pen ? project manager: it 's not but it is pen . it 's not working like a pen yet . user interface: mm . project manager: huh . huh . user interface: mm . project manager: it 's doing some stuff now . so you can use a pen . user interface: little bit slower . project manager: you can use an eraser . and you can make new uh fi uh new blanks , and you can change uh the line width and the colour of the pen by pressing on forward , which y you have to select pen format . and then select current colour or line width . so , it 's quite easy . uh well , now you 're all uh acquainted with the different tools . right , we 're gon na try out the electronic white-boards . uh , every participant should draw his favourite animal and some of its favourite characteristics , user interface: industrial designer: project manager: on blank sheets with different colours , with different pen widths . uh , i 'll start off then . marketing: project manager: i 'll use this uh same sheet . alright . oh , let me think . different colours . oh . marketing: project manager: well , i 'm gon na draw um a p piranha . uh , a fish . user interface: piranha . okay . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: uh . user interface: project manager: mm-hmm . i 'm gon na use some different colour now . user interface: oh . marketing: project manager: some a little white . looks like a fish . think it is . oh . user interface: project manager: oh . uh , colour . this is black ? i think so . user interface: yellow project manager: oh . oh , this is just uh useless uh drawings but marketing: project manager: oh teeth . i need teeth . well , they 're not supposed to be green , or whatever colour this is . marketing: user interface: hmm . project manager: okay . what was uh i have su to sum up its favourite characteris user interface: different . project manager: well , i like its uh sharp razor sharp teeth . plus , uh the the big uh forehead and uh a small uh , well a small actual face . and i like its overall uh aggressive look and well , that 's what i like about uh piranha . i think that 's kind of what uh the intention should be . user interface: okay . project manager: well , who wants to be next ? marketing: nobody , i guess . user interface: i will try . yeah . i will try . uh project manager: you go , guido ? okay . uh , make a new sheet . uh , it 's by pressing on blank . user interface: blank ? project manager: yep . user interface: okay . then pen again ? marketing: project manager: yep . user interface: okay . project manager: and uh so in the format menu you can choose the different uh colours and uh pen widths . user interface: okay , um marketing: format . user interface: control . uh ah , purple . um , i do n't know what my uh favourite uh animal is , marketing: user interface: but the easiest animal i can think is is a bird . project manager: marketing: user interface: uh i will marketing: project manager: marketing: you know , i thought of that actually . user interface: that 's my bird . yeah ? marketing: yeah . user interface: is n't it quite it 's a little bit light . marketing: project manager: user interface: marketing: user interface: uh , another colour maybe . a red one . marketing: user interface: a small one . uh , line width . two ? three . oh that 's okay . that 's another one . marketing: project manager: well , tell us something about uh your favourite characteristics of these uh particular birds . user interface: ano uh uh it 's a marketing: its simplicity . project manager: user interface: yeah , it 's uh the most simple uh animal i know , i think . marketing: project manager: industrial designer: user interface: um , i do n't know . maybe because uh there 's there 's some s uh free uh maybe in the sky or something like that . project manager: oh , okay . okay . user interface: maybe a little bit . yeah . i do n't know . project manager: okay . no , uh it 's clear . user interface: so more uh birds ? project manager: n no no . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: we get your point . okay . who wants to be next ? user interface: okay , okay , okay . marketing: yeah , whatever . i 'll go next . user interface: marketing: thanks . user interface: m marketing: i have n't got a favourite animal too , so user interface: pictionary . project manager: marketing: oh . what should i draw ? industrial designer: project manager: oh . user interface: a cow . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: user interface: okay . marketing: thank you , project manager: marketing: i 'll draw a penguin . yeah . i 'll draw a penguin . whatever . i ca n't draw , so you can start to laugh already . project manager: i 'll do so . industrial designer: marketing: whatever . something like that . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: come on . user interface: yeah , it 's little bit hard . marketing: mm hmm hmm , orange . user interface: orange , of course . marketing: whatever . user interface: marketing: oh , it 's better than your bird . user interface: uh yeah . industrial designer: marketing: everything 's better than your bird . user interface: yeah . true . marketing: whatever . user interface: marketing: hey , it 's blue . no . whatever . um , i like its ugliness project manager: user interface: marketing: and uh yeah , whatever . the way it walks or whatever . project manager: okay . marketing: your turn . user interface: industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: drawing . industrial designer: i 'm going to draw a cat . i do n't know why , but a cat is a very uh smart animal . marketing: industrial designer: and you can have them at home . user interface: industrial designer: which is not as the case with uh with bingwings and project manager: well , you can have a piranha at home . user interface: marketing: user interface: industrial designer: ye yes , yeah . project manager: huh . marketing: or a line . project manager: user interface: a little bit . marketing: i mean a bird . project manager: user interface: yeah . do n't mess with my birds , yeah . industrial designer: it 's not very uh very good drawn , but you can see a cat from it . marketing: hmm . it 's a handicapped cat . user interface: cat . project manager: i do n't think uh i do n't think uh darwin would agree with that . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: industrial designer: it 's marketing: user interface: industrial designer: ah , it 's not scared . he 's crying but project manager: . okay . user interface: marketing: he 's crying because it 's ugl because of his ugliness . industrial designer: project manager: what do you like about it then ? marketing: industrial designer: uh it 's i most cats are small . project manager: oh , okay . industrial designer: you can handle them . project manager: okay . okay . okay , user interface: marketing: project manager: and then we are uh through the tool training , i guess . user interface: okay . industrial designer: marketing: i would n't call it training , but project manager: okay , this is uh something about the project finance . the selling price of our remote control is gon na be twenty five euros . and our profit aim is fifteen million euros . we 're very ambitious on this one . user interface: project manager: the market range is international , so it 's gon na be sold world-wide , and the production cost should be a maximum of twelve euro fifty per remote control . so that 's clear . yeah ? user interface: okay . marketing: alright . project manager: okay , we 're now gon na discuss some stuff when well , we 're gon na brainstorm about uh what kind of kemoro romo remote control it 's gon na be . uh , well tell me about your experiences with the remote controls . do you have uh know what good experiences with remote controls ? or do they annoy you sometimes ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: are they difficult to understand , or maybe they do n't interact with different kind of uh equipment very well ? user interface: hmm . marketing: i do n't th i do n't think the four of us got problems with remote controls , project manager: yeah , okay . marketing: but if you see elderly people , all these buttons , and then they buy new tv because their previous one was stolen or whatever . user interface: different . project manager: okay . marketing: and then a totally different remote control with with different functions on different places , and half of the functions a are removed , or whatever . uh , so i think what we need is is a clear uh remote control with uh grouped buttons , you know . all th all the buttons which apply to the text functions in in one uh project manager: different functions of of uh marketing: well , one area or whatever , not like the button to enter text on top of the remote control and the button to um , yeah , to minimise it to this this or whatever o o other functions totally somewhere else . project manager: okay . yeah . marketing: i think we should group them . project manager: okay . marketing: and same for the for the volume buttons and the the t project manager: and uh , is it gon na be a remote control that 's um what it can be used for different kind of equipment , like your tv and your home stereo ? marketing: well i was i was thinking uh since a tv is uh mostly used together with a v_c_r_ or d_v_d_ player or recorder , and not with a stereo , i think it should be good to include functions for v_c_r_s and d_v_d_ players , recorders . project manager: uh user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . but uh , the d_v_d_ players and home cinema sets often double as stereo hi-fi sets probably . marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's what , from my experience . user interface: but is n't it marketing: i do n't know . hi-fi set is uh not often used uh as i know of in combination with television . project manager: okay . but we gon na user interface: it 's only for television , i thought . not marketing: yes . project manager: oh , it is only for televis user interface: i thought it was only for television . so so we probably do n't have to have to uh have the functions for d_v_d_ player or v_c_r_ . marketing: yes , it is only for television , but uh project manager: so wha what what wha what uh what document marketing: well well we we 're gon na brainstorm about that . if we think it 's useful , we do it . project manager: but , where where did it uh where did you find that ? user interface: uh , in the email . project manager: oh , okay . user interface: i thought it said uh marketing: that 's right . it 's a television remote control . user interface: yeah , television remote control . industrial designer: yes , marketing: but i was thinking since it is useful with d_v_d_ project manager: yeah , but most television remote controls support other functions as well . so we can industrial designer: yes , that 's uh something extras . project manager: no , we have to think about that . user interface: true . yeah . project manager: okay , uh but uh we 've gon na put some a uh is is it so user-friendliness , is a is a pri priority in this case , or user interface: true . marketing: yep . user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , also no one 's gon na buy it . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . true . industrial designer: only the experts . marketing: i guess . project manager: well , this the maybe is uh some aspect of the uh , or or some point at at which we can excel by making it very useful . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: that w well , then you 're you 're the usability uh man , so this uh gon na be a very important task for you then . user interface: oh my god . okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . well , other ideas ? how can we make it trendy or something ? do uh by just sh shape and the look of it ? industrial designer: uh , to go with to go with fashion and project manager: maybe a can opener underneath it ? user interface: for the bear . uh industrial designer: marketing: project manager: i do n't know . or someth something special , like uh m_p_ three player inside of it , or uh user interface: i i uh , no i think it project manager: oh , well then the production costs are gon na be too high probably . user interface: uh , i th i think yo we have to keep it simple , to get a whole market . marketing: yeah , way too high . yep . project manager: okay . maybe with different type of fronts or uh user interface: it 's international , so we have to use a standard . project manager: well , m has to be something spectacular or uh one which makes it marketing: well that 's an idea of course , yeah . project manager: we gon na skip back to the goals probably . uh , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: original , trendly , and user-friendly well , we al also already talked about user-friendliness . user interface: hmm . project manager: no , well something trendy and original , well that that goes hand in hand i guess . when something is original , it tends to be trendy , probably , marketing: yeah . project manager: or we should make it combination of that . 'kay , so you the um technical part of the process is something you 're gon na look after for , so you have to think about what kind of uh equipment you want to uh , you know , you want to manage with it . well , and that 's an important part for you then , with gogors regards to the user-friendly part of it . user interface: use friendly . yep . project manager: well , and you uh should look out for what makes it trendy . well , you know , y like some special feature . or some does it does it gets some gadgetness or something . marketing: yeah . yes , what the market wishes . project manager: okay . well , the closing . next meeting starts in thirty minutes . individual , i think so . the the industrial designer will w or the working design , of course , we will uh already s said that . the user interface designer is it a user inter user interface user interface: yeah . yeah , yeah . interface d marketing: yeah . project manager: the technical functions design . and the management expert of uh the marketing expert . user requirements specifi well , this one was already clear to us . specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach . i do n't know how much time we have left . marketing: project manager: oh , not many i guess . we started at twelve . marketing: you just got a message . project manager: oh , and what does it said ? marketing: and it said uh five minutes , so we got four and a half . user interface: oh , i do n't project manager: w okay , well um user interface: i did n't get a message . marketing: no . he 's the whatever . user interface: oh , the project manager . industrial designer: team leader . project manager: no , we 're uh ahead of schedule then . marketing: team leader . he is the whatever . project manager: yeah , close it . i 'm gon na make some minutes or take some minutes . user interface: okay . marketing: yes . project manager: and uh it 's it 's clear you can put the stuff in the project documents presentations . user interface: okay . project manager: you can all or we 're all uh marketing: project joc project documents is for showing uh on the white-board . project manager: yeah . yeah , but we 're all familiar with uh uh microsoft powerpoint , are we ? marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: yes . project manager: i 'm gon na wri uh write some stuff down marketing: alright . project manager: and then we 're ready . marketing: okay . project manager: or we can leave already i guess . marketing: yeah . project manager: or uh or sh or should we uh or is important that we leave at exact uh industrial designer: no . project manager: okay . marketing: no . i do n't think so . project manager: user interface: i do n't think oh marketing: yes ? project manager: yes . user interface: industrial designer: oh . marketing: great . project manager: we 'll see each other in uh thirty minutes . marketing: yeah . good luck . project manager: yeah , good luck . industrial designer: user interface: i will need it . marketing: i will need it . user interface: { vocalsound }

this is a kick-off meeting for a new remote control project for television sets . project manager started it with a review of project objectives and then the team got acquainted with each other and tools . through discussion , the team decided to design a remote control with grouped buttons , useful with dvd players and carrying some special features to be confirmed .

what did the group discuss about adding support for dvd players to the remote controls ? </s> marketing: hello . project manager: marketing: dang it . project manager: and then you have to place your laptop exactly on the marked spot . marketing: alright . user interface: project manager: it 's important to place your laptop exactly on the marked spot over here . user interface: okay . no , that 's okay . joost , your mouse . marketing: what ? user interface: no mouse needed ? marketing: i 've got a touch-pad . user interface: mm . marketing: do you know how how i can wake it up ? user interface: a touch-pad ? marketing: no , my laptop . user interface: slap it . marketing: you with your brilliant ideas . i do n't know if i can touch the power button . do you know how how i can wake it up ? user interface: is project manager: no . yeah . try the power button . marketing: oh . user interface: marketing: come on , move it . user interface: um marketing: now , wake up , bitch . project manager: huh . user interface: f_ five . f_ five . industrial designer: i 've lost my screen . uh marketing: yeah , so did i . user interface: i do n't . marketing: i closed it . that wasn that was n't very smart , i guess . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: come on . get back to me . yes . industrial designer: yes . user interface: industrial designer: i closed the marketing: i closed it . user interface: you 've got your name . project manager: yeah , my name is name . marketing: no , i did n't restart it , i just closed it . yes . user interface: hope it working . marketing: alright . industrial designer: no . user interface: never close your laptop . project manager: yeah ? everybody 's ready ? user interface: yeah . marketing: great . thanks . project manager: great . well , welcome to the kick-off meeting . i uh forgot to put my name over here , it 's uh it 's martin . uh , so you all know . marketing: project manager: well , this is the agenda for today . well , the opening is what i 'm doing right now . user interface: project manager: uh , we gon na do some acquaintance acquaintance things . uh give some um examples of the tool training , project plan discussion and the closing . we have twenty five minutes . okay , the project aim is to design a new remote control . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh , some of the oje objectives are that is has to be original , trendy , and user-friendly . so now we all know what our user interface: okay . project manager: goal is . um , i oh forget i forget the whole acquaintance part , but we we all know each other . we all know each other 's names . joost , guido , antek . user interface: what is your name ? marketing: yes . industrial designer: yes . antek . user interface: antek ahmet . and joost . project manager: okay . i think we uh al already uh been through that part . user interface: okay . yeah . project manager: okay , it consists of uh three levels of design . uh we begin with the functional design , then we go to the conceptual design and the detailed design . every uh level of design consists of some individual work , and we uh close it with a meeting . you all received an email with a example of our explanation of what uh the particular level of design uh means to the different uh functions , and uh you p you probably read that already , so i do n't have to tell you about that . user interface: yes . marketing: yes . project manager: okay , first we 're gon na um uh gon na try some different things with the tools we have over here , so you get acquainted with these uh um uh meeting tools . we have the smart-boards , uh the thes those two boards . this is the presentation boards , wh which one i 'm using right now . you can uh um there 's a document folder called um the sh shared document folder . you can upload your uh documents to that folder and then you can open them over here , so you can do your powerpoint presentations on this screen . we also have the white-board . uh , we 're gon na skip through th user interface: can we see the white-board on our laptops ? project manager: no , no . just on the on the screen over there . user interface: no , i saw i saw the file , the smart-board that x_b_k_ but project manager: oh , no . probably is , but i do n't know if the software is on the laptop . is is if it 's mainly a thing for in the meeting , so i do n't think it 's i do n't know if it 's important . user interface: okay . project manager: this an explanation of the smart-boards . there is a tool-bar over here . it 's quite simple . you have the the pen function , eraser function . it 's like a very simple uh paint application . uh , we well , we use the same file during uh the whole day , and uh you can make new sheets by uh by pu puttin pressing on the blank button . it works like this . oh . if pen is selected , yes . user interface: marketing: project manager: oh , no no . user interface: with that pen ? project manager: it 's not but it is pen . it 's not working like a pen yet . user interface: mm . project manager: huh . huh . user interface: mm . project manager: it 's doing some stuff now . so you can use a pen . user interface: little bit slower . project manager: you can use an eraser . and you can make new uh fi uh new blanks , and you can change uh the line width and the colour of the pen by pressing on forward , which y you have to select pen format . and then select current colour or line width . so , it 's quite easy . uh well , now you 're all uh acquainted with the different tools . right , we 're gon na try out the electronic white-boards . uh , every participant should draw his favourite animal and some of its favourite characteristics , user interface: industrial designer: project manager: on blank sheets with different colours , with different pen widths . uh , i 'll start off then . marketing: project manager: i 'll use this uh same sheet . alright . oh , let me think . different colours . oh . marketing: project manager: well , i 'm gon na draw um a p piranha . uh , a fish . user interface: piranha . okay . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: uh . user interface: project manager: mm-hmm . i 'm gon na use some different colour now . user interface: oh . marketing: project manager: some a little white . looks like a fish . think it is . oh . user interface: project manager: oh . uh , colour . this is black ? i think so . user interface: yellow project manager: oh . oh , this is just uh useless uh drawings but marketing: project manager: oh teeth . i need teeth . well , they 're not supposed to be green , or whatever colour this is . marketing: user interface: hmm . project manager: okay . what was uh i have su to sum up its favourite characteris user interface: different . project manager: well , i like its uh sharp razor sharp teeth . plus , uh the the big uh forehead and uh a small uh , well a small actual face . and i like its overall uh aggressive look and well , that 's what i like about uh piranha . i think that 's kind of what uh the intention should be . user interface: okay . project manager: well , who wants to be next ? marketing: nobody , i guess . user interface: i will try . yeah . i will try . uh project manager: you go , guido ? okay . uh , make a new sheet . uh , it 's by pressing on blank . user interface: blank ? project manager: yep . user interface: okay . then pen again ? marketing: project manager: yep . user interface: okay . project manager: and uh so in the format menu you can choose the different uh colours and uh pen widths . user interface: okay , um marketing: format . user interface: control . uh ah , purple . um , i do n't know what my uh favourite uh animal is , marketing: user interface: but the easiest animal i can think is is a bird . project manager: marketing: user interface: uh i will marketing: project manager: marketing: you know , i thought of that actually . user interface: that 's my bird . yeah ? marketing: yeah . user interface: is n't it quite it 's a little bit light . marketing: project manager: user interface: marketing: user interface: uh , another colour maybe . a red one . marketing: user interface: a small one . uh , line width . two ? three . oh that 's okay . that 's another one . marketing: project manager: well , tell us something about uh your favourite characteristics of these uh particular birds . user interface: ano uh uh it 's a marketing: its simplicity . project manager: user interface: yeah , it 's uh the most simple uh animal i know , i think . marketing: project manager: industrial designer: user interface: um , i do n't know . maybe because uh there 's there 's some s uh free uh maybe in the sky or something like that . project manager: oh , okay . okay . user interface: maybe a little bit . yeah . i do n't know . project manager: okay . no , uh it 's clear . user interface: so more uh birds ? project manager: n no no . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: we get your point . okay . who wants to be next ? user interface: okay , okay , okay . marketing: yeah , whatever . i 'll go next . user interface: marketing: thanks . user interface: m marketing: i have n't got a favourite animal too , so user interface: pictionary . project manager: marketing: oh . what should i draw ? industrial designer: project manager: oh . user interface: a cow . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: user interface: okay . marketing: thank you , project manager: marketing: i 'll draw a penguin . yeah . i 'll draw a penguin . whatever . i ca n't draw , so you can start to laugh already . project manager: i 'll do so . industrial designer: marketing: whatever . something like that . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: come on . user interface: yeah , it 's little bit hard . marketing: mm hmm hmm , orange . user interface: orange , of course . marketing: whatever . user interface: marketing: oh , it 's better than your bird . user interface: uh yeah . industrial designer: marketing: everything 's better than your bird . user interface: yeah . true . marketing: whatever . user interface: marketing: hey , it 's blue . no . whatever . um , i like its ugliness project manager: user interface: marketing: and uh yeah , whatever . the way it walks or whatever . project manager: okay . marketing: your turn . user interface: industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: drawing . industrial designer: i 'm going to draw a cat . i do n't know why , but a cat is a very uh smart animal . marketing: industrial designer: and you can have them at home . user interface: industrial designer: which is not as the case with uh with bingwings and project manager: well , you can have a piranha at home . user interface: marketing: user interface: industrial designer: ye yes , yeah . project manager: huh . marketing: or a line . project manager: user interface: a little bit . marketing: i mean a bird . project manager: user interface: yeah . do n't mess with my birds , yeah . industrial designer: it 's not very uh very good drawn , but you can see a cat from it . marketing: hmm . it 's a handicapped cat . user interface: cat . project manager: i do n't think uh i do n't think uh darwin would agree with that . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: industrial designer: it 's marketing: user interface: industrial designer: ah , it 's not scared . he 's crying but project manager: . okay . user interface: marketing: he 's crying because it 's ugl because of his ugliness . industrial designer: project manager: what do you like about it then ? marketing: industrial designer: uh it 's i most cats are small . project manager: oh , okay . industrial designer: you can handle them . project manager: okay . okay . okay , user interface: marketing: project manager: and then we are uh through the tool training , i guess . user interface: okay . industrial designer: marketing: i would n't call it training , but project manager: okay , this is uh something about the project finance . the selling price of our remote control is gon na be twenty five euros . and our profit aim is fifteen million euros . we 're very ambitious on this one . user interface: project manager: the market range is international , so it 's gon na be sold world-wide , and the production cost should be a maximum of twelve euro fifty per remote control . so that 's clear . yeah ? user interface: okay . marketing: alright . project manager: okay , we 're now gon na discuss some stuff when well , we 're gon na brainstorm about uh what kind of kemoro romo remote control it 's gon na be . uh , well tell me about your experiences with the remote controls . do you have uh know what good experiences with remote controls ? or do they annoy you sometimes ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: are they difficult to understand , or maybe they do n't interact with different kind of uh equipment very well ? user interface: hmm . marketing: i do n't th i do n't think the four of us got problems with remote controls , project manager: yeah , okay . marketing: but if you see elderly people , all these buttons , and then they buy new tv because their previous one was stolen or whatever . user interface: different . project manager: okay . marketing: and then a totally different remote control with with different functions on different places , and half of the functions a are removed , or whatever . uh , so i think what we need is is a clear uh remote control with uh grouped buttons , you know . all th all the buttons which apply to the text functions in in one uh project manager: different functions of of uh marketing: well , one area or whatever , not like the button to enter text on top of the remote control and the button to um , yeah , to minimise it to this this or whatever o o other functions totally somewhere else . project manager: okay . yeah . marketing: i think we should group them . project manager: okay . marketing: and same for the for the volume buttons and the the t project manager: and uh , is it gon na be a remote control that 's um what it can be used for different kind of equipment , like your tv and your home stereo ? marketing: well i was i was thinking uh since a tv is uh mostly used together with a v_c_r_ or d_v_d_ player or recorder , and not with a stereo , i think it should be good to include functions for v_c_r_s and d_v_d_ players , recorders . project manager: uh user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . but uh , the d_v_d_ players and home cinema sets often double as stereo hi-fi sets probably . marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's what , from my experience . user interface: but is n't it marketing: i do n't know . hi-fi set is uh not often used uh as i know of in combination with television . project manager: okay . but we gon na user interface: it 's only for television , i thought . not marketing: yes . project manager: oh , it is only for televis user interface: i thought it was only for television . so so we probably do n't have to have to uh have the functions for d_v_d_ player or v_c_r_ . marketing: yes , it is only for television , but uh project manager: so wha what what wha what uh what document marketing: well well we we 're gon na brainstorm about that . if we think it 's useful , we do it . project manager: but , where where did it uh where did you find that ? user interface: uh , in the email . project manager: oh , okay . user interface: i thought it said uh marketing: that 's right . it 's a television remote control . user interface: yeah , television remote control . industrial designer: yes , marketing: but i was thinking since it is useful with d_v_d_ project manager: yeah , but most television remote controls support other functions as well . so we can industrial designer: yes , that 's uh something extras . project manager: no , we have to think about that . user interface: true . yeah . project manager: okay , uh but uh we 've gon na put some a uh is is it so user-friendliness , is a is a pri priority in this case , or user interface: true . marketing: yep . user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , also no one 's gon na buy it . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . true . industrial designer: only the experts . marketing: i guess . project manager: well , this the maybe is uh some aspect of the uh , or or some point at at which we can excel by making it very useful . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: that w well , then you 're you 're the usability uh man , so this uh gon na be a very important task for you then . user interface: oh my god . okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . well , other ideas ? how can we make it trendy or something ? do uh by just sh shape and the look of it ? industrial designer: uh , to go with to go with fashion and project manager: maybe a can opener underneath it ? user interface: for the bear . uh industrial designer: marketing: project manager: i do n't know . or someth something special , like uh m_p_ three player inside of it , or uh user interface: i i uh , no i think it project manager: oh , well then the production costs are gon na be too high probably . user interface: uh , i th i think yo we have to keep it simple , to get a whole market . marketing: yeah , way too high . yep . project manager: okay . maybe with different type of fronts or uh user interface: it 's international , so we have to use a standard . project manager: well , m has to be something spectacular or uh one which makes it marketing: well that 's an idea of course , yeah . project manager: we gon na skip back to the goals probably . uh , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: original , trendly , and user-friendly well , we al also already talked about user-friendliness . user interface: hmm . project manager: no , well something trendy and original , well that that goes hand in hand i guess . when something is original , it tends to be trendy , probably , marketing: yeah . project manager: or we should make it combination of that . 'kay , so you the um technical part of the process is something you 're gon na look after for , so you have to think about what kind of uh equipment you want to uh , you know , you want to manage with it . well , and that 's an important part for you then , with gogors regards to the user-friendly part of it . user interface: use friendly . yep . project manager: well , and you uh should look out for what makes it trendy . well , you know , y like some special feature . or some does it does it gets some gadgetness or something . marketing: yeah . yes , what the market wishes . project manager: okay . well , the closing . next meeting starts in thirty minutes . individual , i think so . the the industrial designer will w or the working design , of course , we will uh already s said that . the user interface designer is it a user inter user interface user interface: yeah . yeah , yeah . interface d marketing: yeah . project manager: the technical functions design . and the management expert of uh the marketing expert . user requirements specifi well , this one was already clear to us . specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach . i do n't know how much time we have left . marketing: project manager: oh , not many i guess . we started at twelve . marketing: you just got a message . project manager: oh , and what does it said ? marketing: and it said uh five minutes , so we got four and a half . user interface: oh , i do n't project manager: w okay , well um user interface: i did n't get a message . marketing: no . he 's the whatever . user interface: oh , the project manager . industrial designer: team leader . project manager: no , we 're uh ahead of schedule then . marketing: team leader . he is the whatever . project manager: yeah , close it . i 'm gon na make some minutes or take some minutes . user interface: okay . marketing: yes . project manager: and uh it 's it 's clear you can put the stuff in the project documents presentations . user interface: okay . project manager: you can all or we 're all uh marketing: project joc project documents is for showing uh on the white-board . project manager: yeah . yeah , but we 're all familiar with uh uh microsoft powerpoint , are we ? marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: yes . project manager: i 'm gon na wri uh write some stuff down marketing: alright . project manager: and then we 're ready . marketing: okay . project manager: or we can leave already i guess . marketing: yeah . project manager: or uh or sh or should we uh or is important that we leave at exact uh industrial designer: no . project manager: okay . marketing: no . i do n't think so . project manager: user interface: i do n't think oh marketing: yes ? project manager: yes . user interface: industrial designer: oh . marketing: great . project manager: we 'll see each other in uh thirty minutes . marketing: yeah . good luck . project manager: yeah , good luck . industrial designer: user interface: i will need it . marketing: i will need it . user interface: { vocalsound }

project manager suggested designing a remote control useful for multiple devices such as tv and home stereo . marketing disagreed by pointing out that tv was mostly used with vcr or dvd player or recorders , functions for which should be included , rather than with a stereo . against this point , project manager argued that dvd players and home cinema sets usually doubled as stereo hi-fi sets . the discussion took a turn when the user interface disagreed and suggested designing a remote control only for televisions . project manager insisted on including other functions as most remote controls did and everyone was on board in the end .

what did user interface think of adding support for dvd players to the remote control ? </s> marketing: hello . project manager: marketing: dang it . project manager: and then you have to place your laptop exactly on the marked spot . marketing: alright . user interface: project manager: it 's important to place your laptop exactly on the marked spot over here . user interface: okay . no , that 's okay . joost , your mouse . marketing: what ? user interface: no mouse needed ? marketing: i 've got a touch-pad . user interface: mm . marketing: do you know how how i can wake it up ? user interface: a touch-pad ? marketing: no , my laptop . user interface: slap it . marketing: you with your brilliant ideas . i do n't know if i can touch the power button . do you know how how i can wake it up ? user interface: is project manager: no . yeah . try the power button . marketing: oh . user interface: marketing: come on , move it . user interface: um marketing: now , wake up , bitch . project manager: huh . user interface: f_ five . f_ five . industrial designer: i 've lost my screen . uh marketing: yeah , so did i . user interface: i do n't . marketing: i closed it . that wasn that was n't very smart , i guess . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: come on . get back to me . yes . industrial designer: yes . user interface: industrial designer: i closed the marketing: i closed it . user interface: you 've got your name . project manager: yeah , my name is name . marketing: no , i did n't restart it , i just closed it . yes . user interface: hope it working . marketing: alright . industrial designer: no . user interface: never close your laptop . project manager: yeah ? everybody 's ready ? user interface: yeah . marketing: great . thanks . project manager: great . well , welcome to the kick-off meeting . i uh forgot to put my name over here , it 's uh it 's martin . uh , so you all know . marketing: project manager: well , this is the agenda for today . well , the opening is what i 'm doing right now . user interface: project manager: uh , we gon na do some acquaintance acquaintance things . uh give some um examples of the tool training , project plan discussion and the closing . we have twenty five minutes . okay , the project aim is to design a new remote control . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh , some of the oje objectives are that is has to be original , trendy , and user-friendly . so now we all know what our user interface: okay . project manager: goal is . um , i oh forget i forget the whole acquaintance part , but we we all know each other . we all know each other 's names . joost , guido , antek . user interface: what is your name ? marketing: yes . industrial designer: yes . antek . user interface: antek ahmet . and joost . project manager: okay . i think we uh al already uh been through that part . user interface: okay . yeah . project manager: okay , it consists of uh three levels of design . uh we begin with the functional design , then we go to the conceptual design and the detailed design . every uh level of design consists of some individual work , and we uh close it with a meeting . you all received an email with a example of our explanation of what uh the particular level of design uh means to the different uh functions , and uh you p you probably read that already , so i do n't have to tell you about that . user interface: yes . marketing: yes . project manager: okay , first we 're gon na um uh gon na try some different things with the tools we have over here , so you get acquainted with these uh um uh meeting tools . we have the smart-boards , uh the thes those two boards . this is the presentation boards , wh which one i 'm using right now . you can uh um there 's a document folder called um the sh shared document folder . you can upload your uh documents to that folder and then you can open them over here , so you can do your powerpoint presentations on this screen . we also have the white-board . uh , we 're gon na skip through th user interface: can we see the white-board on our laptops ? project manager: no , no . just on the on the screen over there . user interface: no , i saw i saw the file , the smart-board that x_b_k_ but project manager: oh , no . probably is , but i do n't know if the software is on the laptop . is is if it 's mainly a thing for in the meeting , so i do n't think it 's i do n't know if it 's important . user interface: okay . project manager: this an explanation of the smart-boards . there is a tool-bar over here . it 's quite simple . you have the the pen function , eraser function . it 's like a very simple uh paint application . uh , we well , we use the same file during uh the whole day , and uh you can make new sheets by uh by pu puttin pressing on the blank button . it works like this . oh . if pen is selected , yes . user interface: marketing: project manager: oh , no no . user interface: with that pen ? project manager: it 's not but it is pen . it 's not working like a pen yet . user interface: mm . project manager: huh . huh . user interface: mm . project manager: it 's doing some stuff now . so you can use a pen . user interface: little bit slower . project manager: you can use an eraser . and you can make new uh fi uh new blanks , and you can change uh the line width and the colour of the pen by pressing on forward , which y you have to select pen format . and then select current colour or line width . so , it 's quite easy . uh well , now you 're all uh acquainted with the different tools . right , we 're gon na try out the electronic white-boards . uh , every participant should draw his favourite animal and some of its favourite characteristics , user interface: industrial designer: project manager: on blank sheets with different colours , with different pen widths . uh , i 'll start off then . marketing: project manager: i 'll use this uh same sheet . alright . oh , let me think . different colours . oh . marketing: project manager: well , i 'm gon na draw um a p piranha . uh , a fish . user interface: piranha . okay . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: uh . user interface: project manager: mm-hmm . i 'm gon na use some different colour now . user interface: oh . marketing: project manager: some a little white . looks like a fish . think it is . oh . user interface: project manager: oh . uh , colour . this is black ? i think so . user interface: yellow project manager: oh . oh , this is just uh useless uh drawings but marketing: project manager: oh teeth . i need teeth . well , they 're not supposed to be green , or whatever colour this is . marketing: user interface: hmm . project manager: okay . what was uh i have su to sum up its favourite characteris user interface: different . project manager: well , i like its uh sharp razor sharp teeth . plus , uh the the big uh forehead and uh a small uh , well a small actual face . and i like its overall uh aggressive look and well , that 's what i like about uh piranha . i think that 's kind of what uh the intention should be . user interface: okay . project manager: well , who wants to be next ? marketing: nobody , i guess . user interface: i will try . yeah . i will try . uh project manager: you go , guido ? okay . uh , make a new sheet . uh , it 's by pressing on blank . user interface: blank ? project manager: yep . user interface: okay . then pen again ? marketing: project manager: yep . user interface: okay . project manager: and uh so in the format menu you can choose the different uh colours and uh pen widths . user interface: okay , um marketing: format . user interface: control . uh ah , purple . um , i do n't know what my uh favourite uh animal is , marketing: user interface: but the easiest animal i can think is is a bird . project manager: marketing: user interface: uh i will marketing: project manager: marketing: you know , i thought of that actually . user interface: that 's my bird . yeah ? marketing: yeah . user interface: is n't it quite it 's a little bit light . marketing: project manager: user interface: marketing: user interface: uh , another colour maybe . a red one . marketing: user interface: a small one . uh , line width . two ? three . oh that 's okay . that 's another one . marketing: project manager: well , tell us something about uh your favourite characteristics of these uh particular birds . user interface: ano uh uh it 's a marketing: its simplicity . project manager: user interface: yeah , it 's uh the most simple uh animal i know , i think . marketing: project manager: industrial designer: user interface: um , i do n't know . maybe because uh there 's there 's some s uh free uh maybe in the sky or something like that . project manager: oh , okay . okay . user interface: maybe a little bit . yeah . i do n't know . project manager: okay . no , uh it 's clear . user interface: so more uh birds ? project manager: n no no . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: we get your point . okay . who wants to be next ? user interface: okay , okay , okay . marketing: yeah , whatever . i 'll go next . user interface: marketing: thanks . user interface: m marketing: i have n't got a favourite animal too , so user interface: pictionary . project manager: marketing: oh . what should i draw ? industrial designer: project manager: oh . user interface: a cow . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: user interface: okay . marketing: thank you , project manager: marketing: i 'll draw a penguin . yeah . i 'll draw a penguin . whatever . i ca n't draw , so you can start to laugh already . project manager: i 'll do so . industrial designer: marketing: whatever . something like that . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: come on . user interface: yeah , it 's little bit hard . marketing: mm hmm hmm , orange . user interface: orange , of course . marketing: whatever . user interface: marketing: oh , it 's better than your bird . user interface: uh yeah . industrial designer: marketing: everything 's better than your bird . user interface: yeah . true . marketing: whatever . user interface: marketing: hey , it 's blue . no . whatever . um , i like its ugliness project manager: user interface: marketing: and uh yeah , whatever . the way it walks or whatever . project manager: okay . marketing: your turn . user interface: industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: drawing . industrial designer: i 'm going to draw a cat . i do n't know why , but a cat is a very uh smart animal . marketing: industrial designer: and you can have them at home . user interface: industrial designer: which is not as the case with uh with bingwings and project manager: well , you can have a piranha at home . user interface: marketing: user interface: industrial designer: ye yes , yeah . project manager: huh . marketing: or a line . project manager: user interface: a little bit . marketing: i mean a bird . project manager: user interface: yeah . do n't mess with my birds , yeah . industrial designer: it 's not very uh very good drawn , but you can see a cat from it . marketing: hmm . it 's a handicapped cat . user interface: cat . project manager: i do n't think uh i do n't think uh darwin would agree with that . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: industrial designer: it 's marketing: user interface: industrial designer: ah , it 's not scared . he 's crying but project manager: . okay . user interface: marketing: he 's crying because it 's ugl because of his ugliness . industrial designer: project manager: what do you like about it then ? marketing: industrial designer: uh it 's i most cats are small . project manager: oh , okay . industrial designer: you can handle them . project manager: okay . okay . okay , user interface: marketing: project manager: and then we are uh through the tool training , i guess . user interface: okay . industrial designer: marketing: i would n't call it training , but project manager: okay , this is uh something about the project finance . the selling price of our remote control is gon na be twenty five euros . and our profit aim is fifteen million euros . we 're very ambitious on this one . user interface: project manager: the market range is international , so it 's gon na be sold world-wide , and the production cost should be a maximum of twelve euro fifty per remote control . so that 's clear . yeah ? user interface: okay . marketing: alright . project manager: okay , we 're now gon na discuss some stuff when well , we 're gon na brainstorm about uh what kind of kemoro romo remote control it 's gon na be . uh , well tell me about your experiences with the remote controls . do you have uh know what good experiences with remote controls ? or do they annoy you sometimes ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: are they difficult to understand , or maybe they do n't interact with different kind of uh equipment very well ? user interface: hmm . marketing: i do n't th i do n't think the four of us got problems with remote controls , project manager: yeah , okay . marketing: but if you see elderly people , all these buttons , and then they buy new tv because their previous one was stolen or whatever . user interface: different . project manager: okay . marketing: and then a totally different remote control with with different functions on different places , and half of the functions a are removed , or whatever . uh , so i think what we need is is a clear uh remote control with uh grouped buttons , you know . all th all the buttons which apply to the text functions in in one uh project manager: different functions of of uh marketing: well , one area or whatever , not like the button to enter text on top of the remote control and the button to um , yeah , to minimise it to this this or whatever o o other functions totally somewhere else . project manager: okay . yeah . marketing: i think we should group them . project manager: okay . marketing: and same for the for the volume buttons and the the t project manager: and uh , is it gon na be a remote control that 's um what it can be used for different kind of equipment , like your tv and your home stereo ? marketing: well i was i was thinking uh since a tv is uh mostly used together with a v_c_r_ or d_v_d_ player or recorder , and not with a stereo , i think it should be good to include functions for v_c_r_s and d_v_d_ players , recorders . project manager: uh user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . but uh , the d_v_d_ players and home cinema sets often double as stereo hi-fi sets probably . marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's what , from my experience . user interface: but is n't it marketing: i do n't know . hi-fi set is uh not often used uh as i know of in combination with television . project manager: okay . but we gon na user interface: it 's only for television , i thought . not marketing: yes . project manager: oh , it is only for televis user interface: i thought it was only for television . so so we probably do n't have to have to uh have the functions for d_v_d_ player or v_c_r_ . marketing: yes , it is only for television , but uh project manager: so wha what what wha what uh what document marketing: well well we we 're gon na brainstorm about that . if we think it 's useful , we do it . project manager: but , where where did it uh where did you find that ? user interface: uh , in the email . project manager: oh , okay . user interface: i thought it said uh marketing: that 's right . it 's a television remote control . user interface: yeah , television remote control . industrial designer: yes , marketing: but i was thinking since it is useful with d_v_d_ project manager: yeah , but most television remote controls support other functions as well . so we can industrial designer: yes , that 's uh something extras . project manager: no , we have to think about that . user interface: true . yeah . project manager: okay , uh but uh we 've gon na put some a uh is is it so user-friendliness , is a is a pri priority in this case , or user interface: true . marketing: yep . user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , also no one 's gon na buy it . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . true . industrial designer: only the experts . marketing: i guess . project manager: well , this the maybe is uh some aspect of the uh , or or some point at at which we can excel by making it very useful . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: that w well , then you 're you 're the usability uh man , so this uh gon na be a very important task for you then . user interface: oh my god . okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . well , other ideas ? how can we make it trendy or something ? do uh by just sh shape and the look of it ? industrial designer: uh , to go with to go with fashion and project manager: maybe a can opener underneath it ? user interface: for the bear . uh industrial designer: marketing: project manager: i do n't know . or someth something special , like uh m_p_ three player inside of it , or uh user interface: i i uh , no i think it project manager: oh , well then the production costs are gon na be too high probably . user interface: uh , i th i think yo we have to keep it simple , to get a whole market . marketing: yeah , way too high . yep . project manager: okay . maybe with different type of fronts or uh user interface: it 's international , so we have to use a standard . project manager: well , m has to be something spectacular or uh one which makes it marketing: well that 's an idea of course , yeah . project manager: we gon na skip back to the goals probably . uh , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: original , trendly , and user-friendly well , we al also already talked about user-friendliness . user interface: hmm . project manager: no , well something trendy and original , well that that goes hand in hand i guess . when something is original , it tends to be trendy , probably , marketing: yeah . project manager: or we should make it combination of that . 'kay , so you the um technical part of the process is something you 're gon na look after for , so you have to think about what kind of uh equipment you want to uh , you know , you want to manage with it . well , and that 's an important part for you then , with gogors regards to the user-friendly part of it . user interface: use friendly . yep . project manager: well , and you uh should look out for what makes it trendy . well , you know , y like some special feature . or some does it does it gets some gadgetness or something . marketing: yeah . yes , what the market wishes . project manager: okay . well , the closing . next meeting starts in thirty minutes . individual , i think so . the the industrial designer will w or the working design , of course , we will uh already s said that . the user interface designer is it a user inter user interface user interface: yeah . yeah , yeah . interface d marketing: yeah . project manager: the technical functions design . and the management expert of uh the marketing expert . user requirements specifi well , this one was already clear to us . specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach . i do n't know how much time we have left . marketing: project manager: oh , not many i guess . we started at twelve . marketing: you just got a message . project manager: oh , and what does it said ? marketing: and it said uh five minutes , so we got four and a half . user interface: oh , i do n't project manager: w okay , well um user interface: i did n't get a message . marketing: no . he 's the whatever . user interface: oh , the project manager . industrial designer: team leader . project manager: no , we 're uh ahead of schedule then . marketing: team leader . he is the whatever . project manager: yeah , close it . i 'm gon na make some minutes or take some minutes . user interface: okay . marketing: yes . project manager: and uh it 's it 's clear you can put the stuff in the project documents presentations . user interface: okay . project manager: you can all or we 're all uh marketing: project joc project documents is for showing uh on the white-board . project manager: yeah . yeah , but we 're all familiar with uh uh microsoft powerpoint , are we ? marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: yes . project manager: i 'm gon na wri uh write some stuff down marketing: alright . project manager: and then we 're ready . marketing: okay . project manager: or we can leave already i guess . marketing: yeah . project manager: or uh or sh or should we uh or is important that we leave at exact uh industrial designer: no . project manager: okay . marketing: no . i do n't think so . project manager: user interface: i do n't think oh marketing: yes ? project manager: yes . user interface: industrial designer: oh . marketing: great . project manager: we 'll see each other in uh thirty minutes . marketing: yeah . good luck . project manager: yeah , good luck . industrial designer: user interface: i will need it . marketing: i will need it . user interface: { vocalsound }

user interface disagreed on adding support for dvd players to the remote control as the email stated that it should be a television remote control .

what did project manager recommend to do when discussing adding support for dvd players to the remote control ? </s> marketing: hello . project manager: marketing: dang it . project manager: and then you have to place your laptop exactly on the marked spot . marketing: alright . user interface: project manager: it 's important to place your laptop exactly on the marked spot over here . user interface: okay . no , that 's okay . joost , your mouse . marketing: what ? user interface: no mouse needed ? marketing: i 've got a touch-pad . user interface: mm . marketing: do you know how how i can wake it up ? user interface: a touch-pad ? marketing: no , my laptop . user interface: slap it . marketing: you with your brilliant ideas . i do n't know if i can touch the power button . do you know how how i can wake it up ? user interface: is project manager: no . yeah . try the power button . marketing: oh . user interface: marketing: come on , move it . user interface: um marketing: now , wake up , bitch . project manager: huh . user interface: f_ five . f_ five . industrial designer: i 've lost my screen . uh marketing: yeah , so did i . user interface: i do n't . marketing: i closed it . that wasn that was n't very smart , i guess . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: come on . get back to me . yes . industrial designer: yes . user interface: industrial designer: i closed the marketing: i closed it . user interface: you 've got your name . project manager: yeah , my name is name . marketing: no , i did n't restart it , i just closed it . yes . user interface: hope it working . marketing: alright . industrial designer: no . user interface: never close your laptop . project manager: yeah ? everybody 's ready ? user interface: yeah . marketing: great . thanks . project manager: great . well , welcome to the kick-off meeting . i uh forgot to put my name over here , it 's uh it 's martin . uh , so you all know . marketing: project manager: well , this is the agenda for today . well , the opening is what i 'm doing right now . user interface: project manager: uh , we gon na do some acquaintance acquaintance things . uh give some um examples of the tool training , project plan discussion and the closing . we have twenty five minutes . okay , the project aim is to design a new remote control . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh , some of the oje objectives are that is has to be original , trendy , and user-friendly . so now we all know what our user interface: okay . project manager: goal is . um , i oh forget i forget the whole acquaintance part , but we we all know each other . we all know each other 's names . joost , guido , antek . user interface: what is your name ? marketing: yes . industrial designer: yes . antek . user interface: antek ahmet . and joost . project manager: okay . i think we uh al already uh been through that part . user interface: okay . yeah . project manager: okay , it consists of uh three levels of design . uh we begin with the functional design , then we go to the conceptual design and the detailed design . every uh level of design consists of some individual work , and we uh close it with a meeting . you all received an email with a example of our explanation of what uh the particular level of design uh means to the different uh functions , and uh you p you probably read that already , so i do n't have to tell you about that . user interface: yes . marketing: yes . project manager: okay , first we 're gon na um uh gon na try some different things with the tools we have over here , so you get acquainted with these uh um uh meeting tools . we have the smart-boards , uh the thes those two boards . this is the presentation boards , wh which one i 'm using right now . you can uh um there 's a document folder called um the sh shared document folder . you can upload your uh documents to that folder and then you can open them over here , so you can do your powerpoint presentations on this screen . we also have the white-board . uh , we 're gon na skip through th user interface: can we see the white-board on our laptops ? project manager: no , no . just on the on the screen over there . user interface: no , i saw i saw the file , the smart-board that x_b_k_ but project manager: oh , no . probably is , but i do n't know if the software is on the laptop . is is if it 's mainly a thing for in the meeting , so i do n't think it 's i do n't know if it 's important . user interface: okay . project manager: this an explanation of the smart-boards . there is a tool-bar over here . it 's quite simple . you have the the pen function , eraser function . it 's like a very simple uh paint application . uh , we well , we use the same file during uh the whole day , and uh you can make new sheets by uh by pu puttin pressing on the blank button . it works like this . oh . if pen is selected , yes . user interface: marketing: project manager: oh , no no . user interface: with that pen ? project manager: it 's not but it is pen . it 's not working like a pen yet . user interface: mm . project manager: huh . huh . user interface: mm . project manager: it 's doing some stuff now . so you can use a pen . user interface: little bit slower . project manager: you can use an eraser . and you can make new uh fi uh new blanks , and you can change uh the line width and the colour of the pen by pressing on forward , which y you have to select pen format . and then select current colour or line width . so , it 's quite easy . uh well , now you 're all uh acquainted with the different tools . right , we 're gon na try out the electronic white-boards . uh , every participant should draw his favourite animal and some of its favourite characteristics , user interface: industrial designer: project manager: on blank sheets with different colours , with different pen widths . uh , i 'll start off then . marketing: project manager: i 'll use this uh same sheet . alright . oh , let me think . different colours . oh . marketing: project manager: well , i 'm gon na draw um a p piranha . uh , a fish . user interface: piranha . okay . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: uh . user interface: project manager: mm-hmm . i 'm gon na use some different colour now . user interface: oh . marketing: project manager: some a little white . looks like a fish . think it is . oh . user interface: project manager: oh . uh , colour . this is black ? i think so . user interface: yellow project manager: oh . oh , this is just uh useless uh drawings but marketing: project manager: oh teeth . i need teeth . well , they 're not supposed to be green , or whatever colour this is . marketing: user interface: hmm . project manager: okay . what was uh i have su to sum up its favourite characteris user interface: different . project manager: well , i like its uh sharp razor sharp teeth . plus , uh the the big uh forehead and uh a small uh , well a small actual face . and i like its overall uh aggressive look and well , that 's what i like about uh piranha . i think that 's kind of what uh the intention should be . user interface: okay . project manager: well , who wants to be next ? marketing: nobody , i guess . user interface: i will try . yeah . i will try . uh project manager: you go , guido ? okay . uh , make a new sheet . uh , it 's by pressing on blank . user interface: blank ? project manager: yep . user interface: okay . then pen again ? marketing: project manager: yep . user interface: okay . project manager: and uh so in the format menu you can choose the different uh colours and uh pen widths . user interface: okay , um marketing: format . user interface: control . uh ah , purple . um , i do n't know what my uh favourite uh animal is , marketing: user interface: but the easiest animal i can think is is a bird . project manager: marketing: user interface: uh i will marketing: project manager: marketing: you know , i thought of that actually . user interface: that 's my bird . yeah ? marketing: yeah . user interface: is n't it quite it 's a little bit light . marketing: project manager: user interface: marketing: user interface: uh , another colour maybe . a red one . marketing: user interface: a small one . uh , line width . two ? three . oh that 's okay . that 's another one . marketing: project manager: well , tell us something about uh your favourite characteristics of these uh particular birds . user interface: ano uh uh it 's a marketing: its simplicity . project manager: user interface: yeah , it 's uh the most simple uh animal i know , i think . marketing: project manager: industrial designer: user interface: um , i do n't know . maybe because uh there 's there 's some s uh free uh maybe in the sky or something like that . project manager: oh , okay . okay . user interface: maybe a little bit . yeah . i do n't know . project manager: okay . no , uh it 's clear . user interface: so more uh birds ? project manager: n no no . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: we get your point . okay . who wants to be next ? user interface: okay , okay , okay . marketing: yeah , whatever . i 'll go next . user interface: marketing: thanks . user interface: m marketing: i have n't got a favourite animal too , so user interface: pictionary . project manager: marketing: oh . what should i draw ? industrial designer: project manager: oh . user interface: a cow . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: user interface: okay . marketing: thank you , project manager: marketing: i 'll draw a penguin . yeah . i 'll draw a penguin . whatever . i ca n't draw , so you can start to laugh already . project manager: i 'll do so . industrial designer: marketing: whatever . something like that . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: come on . user interface: yeah , it 's little bit hard . marketing: mm hmm hmm , orange . user interface: orange , of course . marketing: whatever . user interface: marketing: oh , it 's better than your bird . user interface: uh yeah . industrial designer: marketing: everything 's better than your bird . user interface: yeah . true . marketing: whatever . user interface: marketing: hey , it 's blue . no . whatever . um , i like its ugliness project manager: user interface: marketing: and uh yeah , whatever . the way it walks or whatever . project manager: okay . marketing: your turn . user interface: industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: drawing . industrial designer: i 'm going to draw a cat . i do n't know why , but a cat is a very uh smart animal . marketing: industrial designer: and you can have them at home . user interface: industrial designer: which is not as the case with uh with bingwings and project manager: well , you can have a piranha at home . user interface: marketing: user interface: industrial designer: ye yes , yeah . project manager: huh . marketing: or a line . project manager: user interface: a little bit . marketing: i mean a bird . project manager: user interface: yeah . do n't mess with my birds , yeah . industrial designer: it 's not very uh very good drawn , but you can see a cat from it . marketing: hmm . it 's a handicapped cat . user interface: cat . project manager: i do n't think uh i do n't think uh darwin would agree with that . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: industrial designer: it 's marketing: user interface: industrial designer: ah , it 's not scared . he 's crying but project manager: . okay . user interface: marketing: he 's crying because it 's ugl because of his ugliness . industrial designer: project manager: what do you like about it then ? marketing: industrial designer: uh it 's i most cats are small . project manager: oh , okay . industrial designer: you can handle them . project manager: okay . okay . okay , user interface: marketing: project manager: and then we are uh through the tool training , i guess . user interface: okay . industrial designer: marketing: i would n't call it training , but project manager: okay , this is uh something about the project finance . the selling price of our remote control is gon na be twenty five euros . and our profit aim is fifteen million euros . we 're very ambitious on this one . user interface: project manager: the market range is international , so it 's gon na be sold world-wide , and the production cost should be a maximum of twelve euro fifty per remote control . so that 's clear . yeah ? user interface: okay . marketing: alright . project manager: okay , we 're now gon na discuss some stuff when well , we 're gon na brainstorm about uh what kind of kemoro romo remote control it 's gon na be . uh , well tell me about your experiences with the remote controls . do you have uh know what good experiences with remote controls ? or do they annoy you sometimes ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: are they difficult to understand , or maybe they do n't interact with different kind of uh equipment very well ? user interface: hmm . marketing: i do n't th i do n't think the four of us got problems with remote controls , project manager: yeah , okay . marketing: but if you see elderly people , all these buttons , and then they buy new tv because their previous one was stolen or whatever . user interface: different . project manager: okay . marketing: and then a totally different remote control with with different functions on different places , and half of the functions a are removed , or whatever . uh , so i think what we need is is a clear uh remote control with uh grouped buttons , you know . all th all the buttons which apply to the text functions in in one uh project manager: different functions of of uh marketing: well , one area or whatever , not like the button to enter text on top of the remote control and the button to um , yeah , to minimise it to this this or whatever o o other functions totally somewhere else . project manager: okay . yeah . marketing: i think we should group them . project manager: okay . marketing: and same for the for the volume buttons and the the t project manager: and uh , is it gon na be a remote control that 's um what it can be used for different kind of equipment , like your tv and your home stereo ? marketing: well i was i was thinking uh since a tv is uh mostly used together with a v_c_r_ or d_v_d_ player or recorder , and not with a stereo , i think it should be good to include functions for v_c_r_s and d_v_d_ players , recorders . project manager: uh user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . but uh , the d_v_d_ players and home cinema sets often double as stereo hi-fi sets probably . marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's what , from my experience . user interface: but is n't it marketing: i do n't know . hi-fi set is uh not often used uh as i know of in combination with television . project manager: okay . but we gon na user interface: it 's only for television , i thought . not marketing: yes . project manager: oh , it is only for televis user interface: i thought it was only for television . so so we probably do n't have to have to uh have the functions for d_v_d_ player or v_c_r_ . marketing: yes , it is only for television , but uh project manager: so wha what what wha what uh what document marketing: well well we we 're gon na brainstorm about that . if we think it 's useful , we do it . project manager: but , where where did it uh where did you find that ? user interface: uh , in the email . project manager: oh , okay . user interface: i thought it said uh marketing: that 's right . it 's a television remote control . user interface: yeah , television remote control . industrial designer: yes , marketing: but i was thinking since it is useful with d_v_d_ project manager: yeah , but most television remote controls support other functions as well . so we can industrial designer: yes , that 's uh something extras . project manager: no , we have to think about that . user interface: true . yeah . project manager: okay , uh but uh we 've gon na put some a uh is is it so user-friendliness , is a is a pri priority in this case , or user interface: true . marketing: yep . user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , also no one 's gon na buy it . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . true . industrial designer: only the experts . marketing: i guess . project manager: well , this the maybe is uh some aspect of the uh , or or some point at at which we can excel by making it very useful . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: that w well , then you 're you 're the usability uh man , so this uh gon na be a very important task for you then . user interface: oh my god . okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . well , other ideas ? how can we make it trendy or something ? do uh by just sh shape and the look of it ? industrial designer: uh , to go with to go with fashion and project manager: maybe a can opener underneath it ? user interface: for the bear . uh industrial designer: marketing: project manager: i do n't know . or someth something special , like uh m_p_ three player inside of it , or uh user interface: i i uh , no i think it project manager: oh , well then the production costs are gon na be too high probably . user interface: uh , i th i think yo we have to keep it simple , to get a whole market . marketing: yeah , way too high . yep . project manager: okay . maybe with different type of fronts or uh user interface: it 's international , so we have to use a standard . project manager: well , m has to be something spectacular or uh one which makes it marketing: well that 's an idea of course , yeah . project manager: we gon na skip back to the goals probably . uh , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: original , trendly , and user-friendly well , we al also already talked about user-friendliness . user interface: hmm . project manager: no , well something trendy and original , well that that goes hand in hand i guess . when something is original , it tends to be trendy , probably , marketing: yeah . project manager: or we should make it combination of that . 'kay , so you the um technical part of the process is something you 're gon na look after for , so you have to think about what kind of uh equipment you want to uh , you know , you want to manage with it . well , and that 's an important part for you then , with gogors regards to the user-friendly part of it . user interface: use friendly . yep . project manager: well , and you uh should look out for what makes it trendy . well , you know , y like some special feature . or some does it does it gets some gadgetness or something . marketing: yeah . yes , what the market wishes . project manager: okay . well , the closing . next meeting starts in thirty minutes . individual , i think so . the the industrial designer will w or the working design , of course , we will uh already s said that . the user interface designer is it a user inter user interface user interface: yeah . yeah , yeah . interface d marketing: yeah . project manager: the technical functions design . and the management expert of uh the marketing expert . user requirements specifi well , this one was already clear to us . specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach . i do n't know how much time we have left . marketing: project manager: oh , not many i guess . we started at twelve . marketing: you just got a message . project manager: oh , and what does it said ? marketing: and it said uh five minutes , so we got four and a half . user interface: oh , i do n't project manager: w okay , well um user interface: i did n't get a message . marketing: no . he 's the whatever . user interface: oh , the project manager . industrial designer: team leader . project manager: no , we 're uh ahead of schedule then . marketing: team leader . he is the whatever . project manager: yeah , close it . i 'm gon na make some minutes or take some minutes . user interface: okay . marketing: yes . project manager: and uh it 's it 's clear you can put the stuff in the project documents presentations . user interface: okay . project manager: you can all or we 're all uh marketing: project joc project documents is for showing uh on the white-board . project manager: yeah . yeah , but we 're all familiar with uh uh microsoft powerpoint , are we ? marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: yes . project manager: i 'm gon na wri uh write some stuff down marketing: alright . project manager: and then we 're ready . marketing: okay . project manager: or we can leave already i guess . marketing: yeah . project manager: or uh or sh or should we uh or is important that we leave at exact uh industrial designer: no . project manager: okay . marketing: no . i do n't think so . project manager: user interface: i do n't think oh marketing: yes ? project manager: yes . user interface: industrial designer: oh . marketing: great . project manager: we 'll see each other in uh thirty minutes . marketing: yeah . good luck . project manager: yeah , good luck . industrial designer: user interface: i will need it . marketing: i will need it . user interface: { vocalsound }

project manager recommended to consider the practical value of adding support for dvd players to the remote control . if it was believed to be useful , then this idea would be adopted .

what did the group discuss about features to make the remote control trendy ? </s> marketing: hello . project manager: marketing: dang it . project manager: and then you have to place your laptop exactly on the marked spot . marketing: alright . user interface: project manager: it 's important to place your laptop exactly on the marked spot over here . user interface: okay . no , that 's okay . joost , your mouse . marketing: what ? user interface: no mouse needed ? marketing: i 've got a touch-pad . user interface: mm . marketing: do you know how how i can wake it up ? user interface: a touch-pad ? marketing: no , my laptop . user interface: slap it . marketing: you with your brilliant ideas . i do n't know if i can touch the power button . do you know how how i can wake it up ? user interface: is project manager: no . yeah . try the power button . marketing: oh . user interface: marketing: come on , move it . user interface: um marketing: now , wake up , bitch . project manager: huh . user interface: f_ five . f_ five . industrial designer: i 've lost my screen . uh marketing: yeah , so did i . user interface: i do n't . marketing: i closed it . that wasn that was n't very smart , i guess . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: come on . get back to me . yes . industrial designer: yes . user interface: industrial designer: i closed the marketing: i closed it . user interface: you 've got your name . project manager: yeah , my name is name . marketing: no , i did n't restart it , i just closed it . yes . user interface: hope it working . marketing: alright . industrial designer: no . user interface: never close your laptop . project manager: yeah ? everybody 's ready ? user interface: yeah . marketing: great . thanks . project manager: great . well , welcome to the kick-off meeting . i uh forgot to put my name over here , it 's uh it 's martin . uh , so you all know . marketing: project manager: well , this is the agenda for today . well , the opening is what i 'm doing right now . user interface: project manager: uh , we gon na do some acquaintance acquaintance things . uh give some um examples of the tool training , project plan discussion and the closing . we have twenty five minutes . okay , the project aim is to design a new remote control . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh , some of the oje objectives are that is has to be original , trendy , and user-friendly . so now we all know what our user interface: okay . project manager: goal is . um , i oh forget i forget the whole acquaintance part , but we we all know each other . we all know each other 's names . joost , guido , antek . user interface: what is your name ? marketing: yes . industrial designer: yes . antek . user interface: antek ahmet . and joost . project manager: okay . i think we uh al already uh been through that part . user interface: okay . yeah . project manager: okay , it consists of uh three levels of design . uh we begin with the functional design , then we go to the conceptual design and the detailed design . every uh level of design consists of some individual work , and we uh close it with a meeting . you all received an email with a example of our explanation of what uh the particular level of design uh means to the different uh functions , and uh you p you probably read that already , so i do n't have to tell you about that . user interface: yes . marketing: yes . project manager: okay , first we 're gon na um uh gon na try some different things with the tools we have over here , so you get acquainted with these uh um uh meeting tools . we have the smart-boards , uh the thes those two boards . this is the presentation boards , wh which one i 'm using right now . you can uh um there 's a document folder called um the sh shared document folder . you can upload your uh documents to that folder and then you can open them over here , so you can do your powerpoint presentations on this screen . we also have the white-board . uh , we 're gon na skip through th user interface: can we see the white-board on our laptops ? project manager: no , no . just on the on the screen over there . user interface: no , i saw i saw the file , the smart-board that x_b_k_ but project manager: oh , no . probably is , but i do n't know if the software is on the laptop . is is if it 's mainly a thing for in the meeting , so i do n't think it 's i do n't know if it 's important . user interface: okay . project manager: this an explanation of the smart-boards . there is a tool-bar over here . it 's quite simple . you have the the pen function , eraser function . it 's like a very simple uh paint application . uh , we well , we use the same file during uh the whole day , and uh you can make new sheets by uh by pu puttin pressing on the blank button . it works like this . oh . if pen is selected , yes . user interface: marketing: project manager: oh , no no . user interface: with that pen ? project manager: it 's not but it is pen . it 's not working like a pen yet . user interface: mm . project manager: huh . huh . user interface: mm . project manager: it 's doing some stuff now . so you can use a pen . user interface: little bit slower . project manager: you can use an eraser . and you can make new uh fi uh new blanks , and you can change uh the line width and the colour of the pen by pressing on forward , which y you have to select pen format . and then select current colour or line width . so , it 's quite easy . uh well , now you 're all uh acquainted with the different tools . right , we 're gon na try out the electronic white-boards . uh , every participant should draw his favourite animal and some of its favourite characteristics , user interface: industrial designer: project manager: on blank sheets with different colours , with different pen widths . uh , i 'll start off then . marketing: project manager: i 'll use this uh same sheet . alright . oh , let me think . different colours . oh . marketing: project manager: well , i 'm gon na draw um a p piranha . uh , a fish . user interface: piranha . okay . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: uh . user interface: project manager: mm-hmm . i 'm gon na use some different colour now . user interface: oh . marketing: project manager: some a little white . looks like a fish . think it is . oh . user interface: project manager: oh . uh , colour . this is black ? i think so . user interface: yellow project manager: oh . oh , this is just uh useless uh drawings but marketing: project manager: oh teeth . i need teeth . well , they 're not supposed to be green , or whatever colour this is . marketing: user interface: hmm . project manager: okay . what was uh i have su to sum up its favourite characteris user interface: different . project manager: well , i like its uh sharp razor sharp teeth . plus , uh the the big uh forehead and uh a small uh , well a small actual face . and i like its overall uh aggressive look and well , that 's what i like about uh piranha . i think that 's kind of what uh the intention should be . user interface: okay . project manager: well , who wants to be next ? marketing: nobody , i guess . user interface: i will try . yeah . i will try . uh project manager: you go , guido ? okay . uh , make a new sheet . uh , it 's by pressing on blank . user interface: blank ? project manager: yep . user interface: okay . then pen again ? marketing: project manager: yep . user interface: okay . project manager: and uh so in the format menu you can choose the different uh colours and uh pen widths . user interface: okay , um marketing: format . user interface: control . uh ah , purple . um , i do n't know what my uh favourite uh animal is , marketing: user interface: but the easiest animal i can think is is a bird . project manager: marketing: user interface: uh i will marketing: project manager: marketing: you know , i thought of that actually . user interface: that 's my bird . yeah ? marketing: yeah . user interface: is n't it quite it 's a little bit light . marketing: project manager: user interface: marketing: user interface: uh , another colour maybe . a red one . marketing: user interface: a small one . uh , line width . two ? three . oh that 's okay . that 's another one . marketing: project manager: well , tell us something about uh your favourite characteristics of these uh particular birds . user interface: ano uh uh it 's a marketing: its simplicity . project manager: user interface: yeah , it 's uh the most simple uh animal i know , i think . marketing: project manager: industrial designer: user interface: um , i do n't know . maybe because uh there 's there 's some s uh free uh maybe in the sky or something like that . project manager: oh , okay . okay . user interface: maybe a little bit . yeah . i do n't know . project manager: okay . no , uh it 's clear . user interface: so more uh birds ? project manager: n no no . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: we get your point . okay . who wants to be next ? user interface: okay , okay , okay . marketing: yeah , whatever . i 'll go next . user interface: marketing: thanks . user interface: m marketing: i have n't got a favourite animal too , so user interface: pictionary . project manager: marketing: oh . what should i draw ? industrial designer: project manager: oh . user interface: a cow . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: user interface: okay . marketing: thank you , project manager: marketing: i 'll draw a penguin . yeah . i 'll draw a penguin . whatever . i ca n't draw , so you can start to laugh already . project manager: i 'll do so . industrial designer: marketing: whatever . something like that . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: come on . user interface: yeah , it 's little bit hard . marketing: mm hmm hmm , orange . user interface: orange , of course . marketing: whatever . user interface: marketing: oh , it 's better than your bird . user interface: uh yeah . industrial designer: marketing: everything 's better than your bird . user interface: yeah . true . marketing: whatever . user interface: marketing: hey , it 's blue . no . whatever . um , i like its ugliness project manager: user interface: marketing: and uh yeah , whatever . the way it walks or whatever . project manager: okay . marketing: your turn . user interface: industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: drawing . industrial designer: i 'm going to draw a cat . i do n't know why , but a cat is a very uh smart animal . marketing: industrial designer: and you can have them at home . user interface: industrial designer: which is not as the case with uh with bingwings and project manager: well , you can have a piranha at home . user interface: marketing: user interface: industrial designer: ye yes , yeah . project manager: huh . marketing: or a line . project manager: user interface: a little bit . marketing: i mean a bird . project manager: user interface: yeah . do n't mess with my birds , yeah . industrial designer: it 's not very uh very good drawn , but you can see a cat from it . marketing: hmm . it 's a handicapped cat . user interface: cat . project manager: i do n't think uh i do n't think uh darwin would agree with that . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: industrial designer: it 's marketing: user interface: industrial designer: ah , it 's not scared . he 's crying but project manager: . okay . user interface: marketing: he 's crying because it 's ugl because of his ugliness . industrial designer: project manager: what do you like about it then ? marketing: industrial designer: uh it 's i most cats are small . project manager: oh , okay . industrial designer: you can handle them . project manager: okay . okay . okay , user interface: marketing: project manager: and then we are uh through the tool training , i guess . user interface: okay . industrial designer: marketing: i would n't call it training , but project manager: okay , this is uh something about the project finance . the selling price of our remote control is gon na be twenty five euros . and our profit aim is fifteen million euros . we 're very ambitious on this one . user interface: project manager: the market range is international , so it 's gon na be sold world-wide , and the production cost should be a maximum of twelve euro fifty per remote control . so that 's clear . yeah ? user interface: okay . marketing: alright . project manager: okay , we 're now gon na discuss some stuff when well , we 're gon na brainstorm about uh what kind of kemoro romo remote control it 's gon na be . uh , well tell me about your experiences with the remote controls . do you have uh know what good experiences with remote controls ? or do they annoy you sometimes ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: are they difficult to understand , or maybe they do n't interact with different kind of uh equipment very well ? user interface: hmm . marketing: i do n't th i do n't think the four of us got problems with remote controls , project manager: yeah , okay . marketing: but if you see elderly people , all these buttons , and then they buy new tv because their previous one was stolen or whatever . user interface: different . project manager: okay . marketing: and then a totally different remote control with with different functions on different places , and half of the functions a are removed , or whatever . uh , so i think what we need is is a clear uh remote control with uh grouped buttons , you know . all th all the buttons which apply to the text functions in in one uh project manager: different functions of of uh marketing: well , one area or whatever , not like the button to enter text on top of the remote control and the button to um , yeah , to minimise it to this this or whatever o o other functions totally somewhere else . project manager: okay . yeah . marketing: i think we should group them . project manager: okay . marketing: and same for the for the volume buttons and the the t project manager: and uh , is it gon na be a remote control that 's um what it can be used for different kind of equipment , like your tv and your home stereo ? marketing: well i was i was thinking uh since a tv is uh mostly used together with a v_c_r_ or d_v_d_ player or recorder , and not with a stereo , i think it should be good to include functions for v_c_r_s and d_v_d_ players , recorders . project manager: uh user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . but uh , the d_v_d_ players and home cinema sets often double as stereo hi-fi sets probably . marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's what , from my experience . user interface: but is n't it marketing: i do n't know . hi-fi set is uh not often used uh as i know of in combination with television . project manager: okay . but we gon na user interface: it 's only for television , i thought . not marketing: yes . project manager: oh , it is only for televis user interface: i thought it was only for television . so so we probably do n't have to have to uh have the functions for d_v_d_ player or v_c_r_ . marketing: yes , it is only for television , but uh project manager: so wha what what wha what uh what document marketing: well well we we 're gon na brainstorm about that . if we think it 's useful , we do it . project manager: but , where where did it uh where did you find that ? user interface: uh , in the email . project manager: oh , okay . user interface: i thought it said uh marketing: that 's right . it 's a television remote control . user interface: yeah , television remote control . industrial designer: yes , marketing: but i was thinking since it is useful with d_v_d_ project manager: yeah , but most television remote controls support other functions as well . so we can industrial designer: yes , that 's uh something extras . project manager: no , we have to think about that . user interface: true . yeah . project manager: okay , uh but uh we 've gon na put some a uh is is it so user-friendliness , is a is a pri priority in this case , or user interface: true . marketing: yep . user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , also no one 's gon na buy it . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . true . industrial designer: only the experts . marketing: i guess . project manager: well , this the maybe is uh some aspect of the uh , or or some point at at which we can excel by making it very useful . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: that w well , then you 're you 're the usability uh man , so this uh gon na be a very important task for you then . user interface: oh my god . okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . well , other ideas ? how can we make it trendy or something ? do uh by just sh shape and the look of it ? industrial designer: uh , to go with to go with fashion and project manager: maybe a can opener underneath it ? user interface: for the bear . uh industrial designer: marketing: project manager: i do n't know . or someth something special , like uh m_p_ three player inside of it , or uh user interface: i i uh , no i think it project manager: oh , well then the production costs are gon na be too high probably . user interface: uh , i th i think yo we have to keep it simple , to get a whole market . marketing: yeah , way too high . yep . project manager: okay . maybe with different type of fronts or uh user interface: it 's international , so we have to use a standard . project manager: well , m has to be something spectacular or uh one which makes it marketing: well that 's an idea of course , yeah . project manager: we gon na skip back to the goals probably . uh , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: original , trendly , and user-friendly well , we al also already talked about user-friendliness . user interface: hmm . project manager: no , well something trendy and original , well that that goes hand in hand i guess . when something is original , it tends to be trendy , probably , marketing: yeah . project manager: or we should make it combination of that . 'kay , so you the um technical part of the process is something you 're gon na look after for , so you have to think about what kind of uh equipment you want to uh , you know , you want to manage with it . well , and that 's an important part for you then , with gogors regards to the user-friendly part of it . user interface: use friendly . yep . project manager: well , and you uh should look out for what makes it trendy . well , you know , y like some special feature . or some does it does it gets some gadgetness or something . marketing: yeah . yes , what the market wishes . project manager: okay . well , the closing . next meeting starts in thirty minutes . individual , i think so . the the industrial designer will w or the working design , of course , we will uh already s said that . the user interface designer is it a user inter user interface user interface: yeah . yeah , yeah . interface d marketing: yeah . project manager: the technical functions design . and the management expert of uh the marketing expert . user requirements specifi well , this one was already clear to us . specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach . i do n't know how much time we have left . marketing: project manager: oh , not many i guess . we started at twelve . marketing: you just got a message . project manager: oh , and what does it said ? marketing: and it said uh five minutes , so we got four and a half . user interface: oh , i do n't project manager: w okay , well um user interface: i did n't get a message . marketing: no . he 's the whatever . user interface: oh , the project manager . industrial designer: team leader . project manager: no , we 're uh ahead of schedule then . marketing: team leader . he is the whatever . project manager: yeah , close it . i 'm gon na make some minutes or take some minutes . user interface: okay . marketing: yes . project manager: and uh it 's it 's clear you can put the stuff in the project documents presentations . user interface: okay . project manager: you can all or we 're all uh marketing: project joc project documents is for showing uh on the white-board . project manager: yeah . yeah , but we 're all familiar with uh uh microsoft powerpoint , are we ? marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: yes . project manager: i 'm gon na wri uh write some stuff down marketing: alright . project manager: and then we 're ready . marketing: okay . project manager: or we can leave already i guess . marketing: yeah . project manager: or uh or sh or should we uh or is important that we leave at exact uh industrial designer: no . project manager: okay . marketing: no . i do n't think so . project manager: user interface: i do n't think oh marketing: yes ? project manager: yes . user interface: industrial designer: oh . marketing: great . project manager: we 'll see each other in uh thirty minutes . marketing: yeah . good luck . project manager: yeah , good luck . industrial designer: user interface: i will need it . marketing: i will need it . user interface: { vocalsound }

project manager suggested a can opener beneath the remote control , three players inside it , and different fronts on it . the rest of the team remained silent about the first idea and negative about the other two . moreover , industrial designer pointed out that it needed to go with fashion ; and user interface shared the idea of keeping it simple and using an international standard .

what did user interface recommend to do when discussing features to make the remote control trendy and why ? </s> marketing: hello . project manager: marketing: dang it . project manager: and then you have to place your laptop exactly on the marked spot . marketing: alright . user interface: project manager: it 's important to place your laptop exactly on the marked spot over here . user interface: okay . no , that 's okay . joost , your mouse . marketing: what ? user interface: no mouse needed ? marketing: i 've got a touch-pad . user interface: mm . marketing: do you know how how i can wake it up ? user interface: a touch-pad ? marketing: no , my laptop . user interface: slap it . marketing: you with your brilliant ideas . i do n't know if i can touch the power button . do you know how how i can wake it up ? user interface: is project manager: no . yeah . try the power button . marketing: oh . user interface: marketing: come on , move it . user interface: um marketing: now , wake up , bitch . project manager: huh . user interface: f_ five . f_ five . industrial designer: i 've lost my screen . uh marketing: yeah , so did i . user interface: i do n't . marketing: i closed it . that wasn that was n't very smart , i guess . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: come on . get back to me . yes . industrial designer: yes . user interface: industrial designer: i closed the marketing: i closed it . user interface: you 've got your name . project manager: yeah , my name is name . marketing: no , i did n't restart it , i just closed it . yes . user interface: hope it working . marketing: alright . industrial designer: no . user interface: never close your laptop . project manager: yeah ? everybody 's ready ? user interface: yeah . marketing: great . thanks . project manager: great . well , welcome to the kick-off meeting . i uh forgot to put my name over here , it 's uh it 's martin . uh , so you all know . marketing: project manager: well , this is the agenda for today . well , the opening is what i 'm doing right now . user interface: project manager: uh , we gon na do some acquaintance acquaintance things . uh give some um examples of the tool training , project plan discussion and the closing . we have twenty five minutes . okay , the project aim is to design a new remote control . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh , some of the oje objectives are that is has to be original , trendy , and user-friendly . so now we all know what our user interface: okay . project manager: goal is . um , i oh forget i forget the whole acquaintance part , but we we all know each other . we all know each other 's names . joost , guido , antek . user interface: what is your name ? marketing: yes . industrial designer: yes . antek . user interface: antek ahmet . and joost . project manager: okay . i think we uh al already uh been through that part . user interface: okay . yeah . project manager: okay , it consists of uh three levels of design . uh we begin with the functional design , then we go to the conceptual design and the detailed design . every uh level of design consists of some individual work , and we uh close it with a meeting . you all received an email with a example of our explanation of what uh the particular level of design uh means to the different uh functions , and uh you p you probably read that already , so i do n't have to tell you about that . user interface: yes . marketing: yes . project manager: okay , first we 're gon na um uh gon na try some different things with the tools we have over here , so you get acquainted with these uh um uh meeting tools . we have the smart-boards , uh the thes those two boards . this is the presentation boards , wh which one i 'm using right now . you can uh um there 's a document folder called um the sh shared document folder . you can upload your uh documents to that folder and then you can open them over here , so you can do your powerpoint presentations on this screen . we also have the white-board . uh , we 're gon na skip through th user interface: can we see the white-board on our laptops ? project manager: no , no . just on the on the screen over there . user interface: no , i saw i saw the file , the smart-board that x_b_k_ but project manager: oh , no . probably is , but i do n't know if the software is on the laptop . is is if it 's mainly a thing for in the meeting , so i do n't think it 's i do n't know if it 's important . user interface: okay . project manager: this an explanation of the smart-boards . there is a tool-bar over here . it 's quite simple . you have the the pen function , eraser function . it 's like a very simple uh paint application . uh , we well , we use the same file during uh the whole day , and uh you can make new sheets by uh by pu puttin pressing on the blank button . it works like this . oh . if pen is selected , yes . user interface: marketing: project manager: oh , no no . user interface: with that pen ? project manager: it 's not but it is pen . it 's not working like a pen yet . user interface: mm . project manager: huh . huh . user interface: mm . project manager: it 's doing some stuff now . so you can use a pen . user interface: little bit slower . project manager: you can use an eraser . and you can make new uh fi uh new blanks , and you can change uh the line width and the colour of the pen by pressing on forward , which y you have to select pen format . and then select current colour or line width . so , it 's quite easy . uh well , now you 're all uh acquainted with the different tools . right , we 're gon na try out the electronic white-boards . uh , every participant should draw his favourite animal and some of its favourite characteristics , user interface: industrial designer: project manager: on blank sheets with different colours , with different pen widths . uh , i 'll start off then . marketing: project manager: i 'll use this uh same sheet . alright . oh , let me think . different colours . oh . marketing: project manager: well , i 'm gon na draw um a p piranha . uh , a fish . user interface: piranha . okay . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: uh . user interface: project manager: mm-hmm . i 'm gon na use some different colour now . user interface: oh . marketing: project manager: some a little white . looks like a fish . think it is . oh . user interface: project manager: oh . uh , colour . this is black ? i think so . user interface: yellow project manager: oh . oh , this is just uh useless uh drawings but marketing: project manager: oh teeth . i need teeth . well , they 're not supposed to be green , or whatever colour this is . marketing: user interface: hmm . project manager: okay . what was uh i have su to sum up its favourite characteris user interface: different . project manager: well , i like its uh sharp razor sharp teeth . plus , uh the the big uh forehead and uh a small uh , well a small actual face . and i like its overall uh aggressive look and well , that 's what i like about uh piranha . i think that 's kind of what uh the intention should be . user interface: okay . project manager: well , who wants to be next ? marketing: nobody , i guess . user interface: i will try . yeah . i will try . uh project manager: you go , guido ? okay . uh , make a new sheet . uh , it 's by pressing on blank . user interface: blank ? project manager: yep . user interface: okay . then pen again ? marketing: project manager: yep . user interface: okay . project manager: and uh so in the format menu you can choose the different uh colours and uh pen widths . user interface: okay , um marketing: format . user interface: control . uh ah , purple . um , i do n't know what my uh favourite uh animal is , marketing: user interface: but the easiest animal i can think is is a bird . project manager: marketing: user interface: uh i will marketing: project manager: marketing: you know , i thought of that actually . user interface: that 's my bird . yeah ? marketing: yeah . user interface: is n't it quite it 's a little bit light . marketing: project manager: user interface: marketing: user interface: uh , another colour maybe . a red one . marketing: user interface: a small one . uh , line width . two ? three . oh that 's okay . that 's another one . marketing: project manager: well , tell us something about uh your favourite characteristics of these uh particular birds . user interface: ano uh uh it 's a marketing: its simplicity . project manager: user interface: yeah , it 's uh the most simple uh animal i know , i think . marketing: project manager: industrial designer: user interface: um , i do n't know . maybe because uh there 's there 's some s uh free uh maybe in the sky or something like that . project manager: oh , okay . okay . user interface: maybe a little bit . yeah . i do n't know . project manager: okay . no , uh it 's clear . user interface: so more uh birds ? project manager: n no no . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: we get your point . okay . who wants to be next ? user interface: okay , okay , okay . marketing: yeah , whatever . i 'll go next . user interface: marketing: thanks . user interface: m marketing: i have n't got a favourite animal too , so user interface: pictionary . project manager: marketing: oh . what should i draw ? industrial designer: project manager: oh . user interface: a cow . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: user interface: okay . marketing: thank you , project manager: marketing: i 'll draw a penguin . yeah . i 'll draw a penguin . whatever . i ca n't draw , so you can start to laugh already . project manager: i 'll do so . industrial designer: marketing: whatever . something like that . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: come on . user interface: yeah , it 's little bit hard . marketing: mm hmm hmm , orange . user interface: orange , of course . marketing: whatever . user interface: marketing: oh , it 's better than your bird . user interface: uh yeah . industrial designer: marketing: everything 's better than your bird . user interface: yeah . true . marketing: whatever . user interface: marketing: hey , it 's blue . no . whatever . um , i like its ugliness project manager: user interface: marketing: and uh yeah , whatever . the way it walks or whatever . project manager: okay . marketing: your turn . user interface: industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: drawing . industrial designer: i 'm going to draw a cat . i do n't know why , but a cat is a very uh smart animal . marketing: industrial designer: and you can have them at home . user interface: industrial designer: which is not as the case with uh with bingwings and project manager: well , you can have a piranha at home . user interface: marketing: user interface: industrial designer: ye yes , yeah . project manager: huh . marketing: or a line . project manager: user interface: a little bit . marketing: i mean a bird . project manager: user interface: yeah . do n't mess with my birds , yeah . industrial designer: it 's not very uh very good drawn , but you can see a cat from it . marketing: hmm . it 's a handicapped cat . user interface: cat . project manager: i do n't think uh i do n't think uh darwin would agree with that . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: industrial designer: it 's marketing: user interface: industrial designer: ah , it 's not scared . he 's crying but project manager: . okay . user interface: marketing: he 's crying because it 's ugl because of his ugliness . industrial designer: project manager: what do you like about it then ? marketing: industrial designer: uh it 's i most cats are small . project manager: oh , okay . industrial designer: you can handle them . project manager: okay . okay . okay , user interface: marketing: project manager: and then we are uh through the tool training , i guess . user interface: okay . industrial designer: marketing: i would n't call it training , but project manager: okay , this is uh something about the project finance . the selling price of our remote control is gon na be twenty five euros . and our profit aim is fifteen million euros . we 're very ambitious on this one . user interface: project manager: the market range is international , so it 's gon na be sold world-wide , and the production cost should be a maximum of twelve euro fifty per remote control . so that 's clear . yeah ? user interface: okay . marketing: alright . project manager: okay , we 're now gon na discuss some stuff when well , we 're gon na brainstorm about uh what kind of kemoro romo remote control it 's gon na be . uh , well tell me about your experiences with the remote controls . do you have uh know what good experiences with remote controls ? or do they annoy you sometimes ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: are they difficult to understand , or maybe they do n't interact with different kind of uh equipment very well ? user interface: hmm . marketing: i do n't th i do n't think the four of us got problems with remote controls , project manager: yeah , okay . marketing: but if you see elderly people , all these buttons , and then they buy new tv because their previous one was stolen or whatever . user interface: different . project manager: okay . marketing: and then a totally different remote control with with different functions on different places , and half of the functions a are removed , or whatever . uh , so i think what we need is is a clear uh remote control with uh grouped buttons , you know . all th all the buttons which apply to the text functions in in one uh project manager: different functions of of uh marketing: well , one area or whatever , not like the button to enter text on top of the remote control and the button to um , yeah , to minimise it to this this or whatever o o other functions totally somewhere else . project manager: okay . yeah . marketing: i think we should group them . project manager: okay . marketing: and same for the for the volume buttons and the the t project manager: and uh , is it gon na be a remote control that 's um what it can be used for different kind of equipment , like your tv and your home stereo ? marketing: well i was i was thinking uh since a tv is uh mostly used together with a v_c_r_ or d_v_d_ player or recorder , and not with a stereo , i think it should be good to include functions for v_c_r_s and d_v_d_ players , recorders . project manager: uh user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . but uh , the d_v_d_ players and home cinema sets often double as stereo hi-fi sets probably . marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's what , from my experience . user interface: but is n't it marketing: i do n't know . hi-fi set is uh not often used uh as i know of in combination with television . project manager: okay . but we gon na user interface: it 's only for television , i thought . not marketing: yes . project manager: oh , it is only for televis user interface: i thought it was only for television . so so we probably do n't have to have to uh have the functions for d_v_d_ player or v_c_r_ . marketing: yes , it is only for television , but uh project manager: so wha what what wha what uh what document marketing: well well we we 're gon na brainstorm about that . if we think it 's useful , we do it . project manager: but , where where did it uh where did you find that ? user interface: uh , in the email . project manager: oh , okay . user interface: i thought it said uh marketing: that 's right . it 's a television remote control . user interface: yeah , television remote control . industrial designer: yes , marketing: but i was thinking since it is useful with d_v_d_ project manager: yeah , but most television remote controls support other functions as well . so we can industrial designer: yes , that 's uh something extras . project manager: no , we have to think about that . user interface: true . yeah . project manager: okay , uh but uh we 've gon na put some a uh is is it so user-friendliness , is a is a pri priority in this case , or user interface: true . marketing: yep . user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , also no one 's gon na buy it . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . true . industrial designer: only the experts . marketing: i guess . project manager: well , this the maybe is uh some aspect of the uh , or or some point at at which we can excel by making it very useful . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: that w well , then you 're you 're the usability uh man , so this uh gon na be a very important task for you then . user interface: oh my god . okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . well , other ideas ? how can we make it trendy or something ? do uh by just sh shape and the look of it ? industrial designer: uh , to go with to go with fashion and project manager: maybe a can opener underneath it ? user interface: for the bear . uh industrial designer: marketing: project manager: i do n't know . or someth something special , like uh m_p_ three player inside of it , or uh user interface: i i uh , no i think it project manager: oh , well then the production costs are gon na be too high probably . user interface: uh , i th i think yo we have to keep it simple , to get a whole market . marketing: yeah , way too high . yep . project manager: okay . maybe with different type of fronts or uh user interface: it 's international , so we have to use a standard . project manager: well , m has to be something spectacular or uh one which makes it marketing: well that 's an idea of course , yeah . project manager: we gon na skip back to the goals probably . uh , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: original , trendly , and user-friendly well , we al also already talked about user-friendliness . user interface: hmm . project manager: no , well something trendy and original , well that that goes hand in hand i guess . when something is original , it tends to be trendy , probably , marketing: yeah . project manager: or we should make it combination of that . 'kay , so you the um technical part of the process is something you 're gon na look after for , so you have to think about what kind of uh equipment you want to uh , you know , you want to manage with it . well , and that 's an important part for you then , with gogors regards to the user-friendly part of it . user interface: use friendly . yep . project manager: well , and you uh should look out for what makes it trendy . well , you know , y like some special feature . or some does it does it gets some gadgetness or something . marketing: yeah . yes , what the market wishes . project manager: okay . well , the closing . next meeting starts in thirty minutes . individual , i think so . the the industrial designer will w or the working design , of course , we will uh already s said that . the user interface designer is it a user inter user interface user interface: yeah . yeah , yeah . interface d marketing: yeah . project manager: the technical functions design . and the management expert of uh the marketing expert . user requirements specifi well , this one was already clear to us . specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach . i do n't know how much time we have left . marketing: project manager: oh , not many i guess . we started at twelve . marketing: you just got a message . project manager: oh , and what does it said ? marketing: and it said uh five minutes , so we got four and a half . user interface: oh , i do n't project manager: w okay , well um user interface: i did n't get a message . marketing: no . he 's the whatever . user interface: oh , the project manager . industrial designer: team leader . project manager: no , we 're uh ahead of schedule then . marketing: team leader . he is the whatever . project manager: yeah , close it . i 'm gon na make some minutes or take some minutes . user interface: okay . marketing: yes . project manager: and uh it 's it 's clear you can put the stuff in the project documents presentations . user interface: okay . project manager: you can all or we 're all uh marketing: project joc project documents is for showing uh on the white-board . project manager: yeah . yeah , but we 're all familiar with uh uh microsoft powerpoint , are we ? marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: yes . project manager: i 'm gon na wri uh write some stuff down marketing: alright . project manager: and then we 're ready . marketing: okay . project manager: or we can leave already i guess . marketing: yeah . project manager: or uh or sh or should we uh or is important that we leave at exact uh industrial designer: no . project manager: okay . marketing: no . i do n't think so . project manager: user interface: i do n't think oh marketing: yes ? project manager: yes . user interface: industrial designer: oh . marketing: great . project manager: we 'll see each other in uh thirty minutes . marketing: yeah . good luck . project manager: yeah , good luck . industrial designer: user interface: i will need it . marketing: i will need it . user interface: { vocalsound }

when discussing features to make the remote control trendy , user interface recommended to keep the remote control simple in order to gain a whole market and to use a standard as it was aimed at an international market .

summarise the discussion about grouping buttons on the remote control . </s> marketing: hello . project manager: marketing: dang it . project manager: and then you have to place your laptop exactly on the marked spot . marketing: alright . user interface: project manager: it 's important to place your laptop exactly on the marked spot over here . user interface: okay . no , that 's okay . joost , your mouse . marketing: what ? user interface: no mouse needed ? marketing: i 've got a touch-pad . user interface: mm . marketing: do you know how how i can wake it up ? user interface: a touch-pad ? marketing: no , my laptop . user interface: slap it . marketing: you with your brilliant ideas . i do n't know if i can touch the power button . do you know how how i can wake it up ? user interface: is project manager: no . yeah . try the power button . marketing: oh . user interface: marketing: come on , move it . user interface: um marketing: now , wake up , bitch . project manager: huh . user interface: f_ five . f_ five . industrial designer: i 've lost my screen . uh marketing: yeah , so did i . user interface: i do n't . marketing: i closed it . that wasn that was n't very smart , i guess . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: come on . get back to me . yes . industrial designer: yes . user interface: industrial designer: i closed the marketing: i closed it . user interface: you 've got your name . project manager: yeah , my name is name . marketing: no , i did n't restart it , i just closed it . yes . user interface: hope it working . marketing: alright . industrial designer: no . user interface: never close your laptop . project manager: yeah ? everybody 's ready ? user interface: yeah . marketing: great . thanks . project manager: great . well , welcome to the kick-off meeting . i uh forgot to put my name over here , it 's uh it 's martin . uh , so you all know . marketing: project manager: well , this is the agenda for today . well , the opening is what i 'm doing right now . user interface: project manager: uh , we gon na do some acquaintance acquaintance things . uh give some um examples of the tool training , project plan discussion and the closing . we have twenty five minutes . okay , the project aim is to design a new remote control . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh , some of the oje objectives are that is has to be original , trendy , and user-friendly . so now we all know what our user interface: okay . project manager: goal is . um , i oh forget i forget the whole acquaintance part , but we we all know each other . we all know each other 's names . joost , guido , antek . user interface: what is your name ? marketing: yes . industrial designer: yes . antek . user interface: antek ahmet . and joost . project manager: okay . i think we uh al already uh been through that part . user interface: okay . yeah . project manager: okay , it consists of uh three levels of design . uh we begin with the functional design , then we go to the conceptual design and the detailed design . every uh level of design consists of some individual work , and we uh close it with a meeting . you all received an email with a example of our explanation of what uh the particular level of design uh means to the different uh functions , and uh you p you probably read that already , so i do n't have to tell you about that . user interface: yes . marketing: yes . project manager: okay , first we 're gon na um uh gon na try some different things with the tools we have over here , so you get acquainted with these uh um uh meeting tools . we have the smart-boards , uh the thes those two boards . this is the presentation boards , wh which one i 'm using right now . you can uh um there 's a document folder called um the sh shared document folder . you can upload your uh documents to that folder and then you can open them over here , so you can do your powerpoint presentations on this screen . we also have the white-board . uh , we 're gon na skip through th user interface: can we see the white-board on our laptops ? project manager: no , no . just on the on the screen over there . user interface: no , i saw i saw the file , the smart-board that x_b_k_ but project manager: oh , no . probably is , but i do n't know if the software is on the laptop . is is if it 's mainly a thing for in the meeting , so i do n't think it 's i do n't know if it 's important . user interface: okay . project manager: this an explanation of the smart-boards . there is a tool-bar over here . it 's quite simple . you have the the pen function , eraser function . it 's like a very simple uh paint application . uh , we well , we use the same file during uh the whole day , and uh you can make new sheets by uh by pu puttin pressing on the blank button . it works like this . oh . if pen is selected , yes . user interface: marketing: project manager: oh , no no . user interface: with that pen ? project manager: it 's not but it is pen . it 's not working like a pen yet . user interface: mm . project manager: huh . huh . user interface: mm . project manager: it 's doing some stuff now . so you can use a pen . user interface: little bit slower . project manager: you can use an eraser . and you can make new uh fi uh new blanks , and you can change uh the line width and the colour of the pen by pressing on forward , which y you have to select pen format . and then select current colour or line width . so , it 's quite easy . uh well , now you 're all uh acquainted with the different tools . right , we 're gon na try out the electronic white-boards . uh , every participant should draw his favourite animal and some of its favourite characteristics , user interface: industrial designer: project manager: on blank sheets with different colours , with different pen widths . uh , i 'll start off then . marketing: project manager: i 'll use this uh same sheet . alright . oh , let me think . different colours . oh . marketing: project manager: well , i 'm gon na draw um a p piranha . uh , a fish . user interface: piranha . okay . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: uh . user interface: project manager: mm-hmm . i 'm gon na use some different colour now . user interface: oh . marketing: project manager: some a little white . looks like a fish . think it is . oh . user interface: project manager: oh . uh , colour . this is black ? i think so . user interface: yellow project manager: oh . oh , this is just uh useless uh drawings but marketing: project manager: oh teeth . i need teeth . well , they 're not supposed to be green , or whatever colour this is . marketing: user interface: hmm . project manager: okay . what was uh i have su to sum up its favourite characteris user interface: different . project manager: well , i like its uh sharp razor sharp teeth . plus , uh the the big uh forehead and uh a small uh , well a small actual face . and i like its overall uh aggressive look and well , that 's what i like about uh piranha . i think that 's kind of what uh the intention should be . user interface: okay . project manager: well , who wants to be next ? marketing: nobody , i guess . user interface: i will try . yeah . i will try . uh project manager: you go , guido ? okay . uh , make a new sheet . uh , it 's by pressing on blank . user interface: blank ? project manager: yep . user interface: okay . then pen again ? marketing: project manager: yep . user interface: okay . project manager: and uh so in the format menu you can choose the different uh colours and uh pen widths . user interface: okay , um marketing: format . user interface: control . uh ah , purple . um , i do n't know what my uh favourite uh animal is , marketing: user interface: but the easiest animal i can think is is a bird . project manager: marketing: user interface: uh i will marketing: project manager: marketing: you know , i thought of that actually . user interface: that 's my bird . yeah ? marketing: yeah . user interface: is n't it quite it 's a little bit light . marketing: project manager: user interface: marketing: user interface: uh , another colour maybe . a red one . marketing: user interface: a small one . uh , line width . two ? three . oh that 's okay . that 's another one . marketing: project manager: well , tell us something about uh your favourite characteristics of these uh particular birds . user interface: ano uh uh it 's a marketing: its simplicity . project manager: user interface: yeah , it 's uh the most simple uh animal i know , i think . marketing: project manager: industrial designer: user interface: um , i do n't know . maybe because uh there 's there 's some s uh free uh maybe in the sky or something like that . project manager: oh , okay . okay . user interface: maybe a little bit . yeah . i do n't know . project manager: okay . no , uh it 's clear . user interface: so more uh birds ? project manager: n no no . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: we get your point . okay . who wants to be next ? user interface: okay , okay , okay . marketing: yeah , whatever . i 'll go next . user interface: marketing: thanks . user interface: m marketing: i have n't got a favourite animal too , so user interface: pictionary . project manager: marketing: oh . what should i draw ? industrial designer: project manager: oh . user interface: a cow . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: user interface: okay . marketing: thank you , project manager: marketing: i 'll draw a penguin . yeah . i 'll draw a penguin . whatever . i ca n't draw , so you can start to laugh already . project manager: i 'll do so . industrial designer: marketing: whatever . something like that . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: come on . user interface: yeah , it 's little bit hard . marketing: mm hmm hmm , orange . user interface: orange , of course . marketing: whatever . user interface: marketing: oh , it 's better than your bird . user interface: uh yeah . industrial designer: marketing: everything 's better than your bird . user interface: yeah . true . marketing: whatever . user interface: marketing: hey , it 's blue . no . whatever . um , i like its ugliness project manager: user interface: marketing: and uh yeah , whatever . the way it walks or whatever . project manager: okay . marketing: your turn . user interface: industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: drawing . industrial designer: i 'm going to draw a cat . i do n't know why , but a cat is a very uh smart animal . marketing: industrial designer: and you can have them at home . user interface: industrial designer: which is not as the case with uh with bingwings and project manager: well , you can have a piranha at home . user interface: marketing: user interface: industrial designer: ye yes , yeah . project manager: huh . marketing: or a line . project manager: user interface: a little bit . marketing: i mean a bird . project manager: user interface: yeah . do n't mess with my birds , yeah . industrial designer: it 's not very uh very good drawn , but you can see a cat from it . marketing: hmm . it 's a handicapped cat . user interface: cat . project manager: i do n't think uh i do n't think uh darwin would agree with that . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: industrial designer: it 's marketing: user interface: industrial designer: ah , it 's not scared . he 's crying but project manager: . okay . user interface: marketing: he 's crying because it 's ugl because of his ugliness . industrial designer: project manager: what do you like about it then ? marketing: industrial designer: uh it 's i most cats are small . project manager: oh , okay . industrial designer: you can handle them . project manager: okay . okay . okay , user interface: marketing: project manager: and then we are uh through the tool training , i guess . user interface: okay . industrial designer: marketing: i would n't call it training , but project manager: okay , this is uh something about the project finance . the selling price of our remote control is gon na be twenty five euros . and our profit aim is fifteen million euros . we 're very ambitious on this one . user interface: project manager: the market range is international , so it 's gon na be sold world-wide , and the production cost should be a maximum of twelve euro fifty per remote control . so that 's clear . yeah ? user interface: okay . marketing: alright . project manager: okay , we 're now gon na discuss some stuff when well , we 're gon na brainstorm about uh what kind of kemoro romo remote control it 's gon na be . uh , well tell me about your experiences with the remote controls . do you have uh know what good experiences with remote controls ? or do they annoy you sometimes ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: are they difficult to understand , or maybe they do n't interact with different kind of uh equipment very well ? user interface: hmm . marketing: i do n't th i do n't think the four of us got problems with remote controls , project manager: yeah , okay . marketing: but if you see elderly people , all these buttons , and then they buy new tv because their previous one was stolen or whatever . user interface: different . project manager: okay . marketing: and then a totally different remote control with with different functions on different places , and half of the functions a are removed , or whatever . uh , so i think what we need is is a clear uh remote control with uh grouped buttons , you know . all th all the buttons which apply to the text functions in in one uh project manager: different functions of of uh marketing: well , one area or whatever , not like the button to enter text on top of the remote control and the button to um , yeah , to minimise it to this this or whatever o o other functions totally somewhere else . project manager: okay . yeah . marketing: i think we should group them . project manager: okay . marketing: and same for the for the volume buttons and the the t project manager: and uh , is it gon na be a remote control that 's um what it can be used for different kind of equipment , like your tv and your home stereo ? marketing: well i was i was thinking uh since a tv is uh mostly used together with a v_c_r_ or d_v_d_ player or recorder , and not with a stereo , i think it should be good to include functions for v_c_r_s and d_v_d_ players , recorders . project manager: uh user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . but uh , the d_v_d_ players and home cinema sets often double as stereo hi-fi sets probably . marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's what , from my experience . user interface: but is n't it marketing: i do n't know . hi-fi set is uh not often used uh as i know of in combination with television . project manager: okay . but we gon na user interface: it 's only for television , i thought . not marketing: yes . project manager: oh , it is only for televis user interface: i thought it was only for television . so so we probably do n't have to have to uh have the functions for d_v_d_ player or v_c_r_ . marketing: yes , it is only for television , but uh project manager: so wha what what wha what uh what document marketing: well well we we 're gon na brainstorm about that . if we think it 's useful , we do it . project manager: but , where where did it uh where did you find that ? user interface: uh , in the email . project manager: oh , okay . user interface: i thought it said uh marketing: that 's right . it 's a television remote control . user interface: yeah , television remote control . industrial designer: yes , marketing: but i was thinking since it is useful with d_v_d_ project manager: yeah , but most television remote controls support other functions as well . so we can industrial designer: yes , that 's uh something extras . project manager: no , we have to think about that . user interface: true . yeah . project manager: okay , uh but uh we 've gon na put some a uh is is it so user-friendliness , is a is a pri priority in this case , or user interface: true . marketing: yep . user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , also no one 's gon na buy it . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . true . industrial designer: only the experts . marketing: i guess . project manager: well , this the maybe is uh some aspect of the uh , or or some point at at which we can excel by making it very useful . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: that w well , then you 're you 're the usability uh man , so this uh gon na be a very important task for you then . user interface: oh my god . okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . well , other ideas ? how can we make it trendy or something ? do uh by just sh shape and the look of it ? industrial designer: uh , to go with to go with fashion and project manager: maybe a can opener underneath it ? user interface: for the bear . uh industrial designer: marketing: project manager: i do n't know . or someth something special , like uh m_p_ three player inside of it , or uh user interface: i i uh , no i think it project manager: oh , well then the production costs are gon na be too high probably . user interface: uh , i th i think yo we have to keep it simple , to get a whole market . marketing: yeah , way too high . yep . project manager: okay . maybe with different type of fronts or uh user interface: it 's international , so we have to use a standard . project manager: well , m has to be something spectacular or uh one which makes it marketing: well that 's an idea of course , yeah . project manager: we gon na skip back to the goals probably . uh , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: original , trendly , and user-friendly well , we al also already talked about user-friendliness . user interface: hmm . project manager: no , well something trendy and original , well that that goes hand in hand i guess . when something is original , it tends to be trendy , probably , marketing: yeah . project manager: or we should make it combination of that . 'kay , so you the um technical part of the process is something you 're gon na look after for , so you have to think about what kind of uh equipment you want to uh , you know , you want to manage with it . well , and that 's an important part for you then , with gogors regards to the user-friendly part of it . user interface: use friendly . yep . project manager: well , and you uh should look out for what makes it trendy . well , you know , y like some special feature . or some does it does it gets some gadgetness or something . marketing: yeah . yes , what the market wishes . project manager: okay . well , the closing . next meeting starts in thirty minutes . individual , i think so . the the industrial designer will w or the working design , of course , we will uh already s said that . the user interface designer is it a user inter user interface user interface: yeah . yeah , yeah . interface d marketing: yeah . project manager: the technical functions design . and the management expert of uh the marketing expert . user requirements specifi well , this one was already clear to us . specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach . i do n't know how much time we have left . marketing: project manager: oh , not many i guess . we started at twelve . marketing: you just got a message . project manager: oh , and what does it said ? marketing: and it said uh five minutes , so we got four and a half . user interface: oh , i do n't project manager: w okay , well um user interface: i did n't get a message . marketing: no . he 's the whatever . user interface: oh , the project manager . industrial designer: team leader . project manager: no , we 're uh ahead of schedule then . marketing: team leader . he is the whatever . project manager: yeah , close it . i 'm gon na make some minutes or take some minutes . user interface: okay . marketing: yes . project manager: and uh it 's it 's clear you can put the stuff in the project documents presentations . user interface: okay . project manager: you can all or we 're all uh marketing: project joc project documents is for showing uh on the white-board . project manager: yeah . yeah , but we 're all familiar with uh uh microsoft powerpoint , are we ? marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: yes . project manager: i 'm gon na wri uh write some stuff down marketing: alright . project manager: and then we 're ready . marketing: okay . project manager: or we can leave already i guess . marketing: yeah . project manager: or uh or sh or should we uh or is important that we leave at exact uh industrial designer: no . project manager: okay . marketing: no . i do n't think so . project manager: user interface: i do n't think oh marketing: yes ? project manager: yes . user interface: industrial designer: oh . marketing: great . project manager: we 'll see each other in uh thirty minutes . marketing: yeah . good luck . project manager: yeah , good luck . industrial designer: user interface: i will need it . marketing: i will need it . user interface: { vocalsound }

marketing first of all suggested focusing on elderly people who really got problems with remote controls and then pointed out the unclear button allocation on remote controls . to solve this problem , marketing put forward that the remote control buttons should be grouped based on functions they serve . project manager agreed .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: okay . project manager: okay everyone 's ready . user interface: hello . project manager: so we are here for uh for uh functional design . user interface: project manager: okay ? so we are here for the functional design meeting mm so first i will show the agenda so we will uh i will take notes during this meeting so i will try to summarise it and put that summary in the shared folder if you want to look at it afterwards user interface: project manager: so then uh each of you will uh lead a presentation on the task that has been required last time so user requirement specification , technical function design and working design . then i will uh present you some new project requirements i received from uh the management board . then we will take uh the decision on on the remote control uh needed functions and then i will assign you the task for the next part of the meeting . of the of the process . so uh who want to start the the presentation of what they did ? industrial designer: f do you want to start ? user interface: make a start yeah . project manager: you can start . user interface: so . project manager: user interface: cable , camera . project manager: you have uh powerpoint ? user interface: should be in my in their folder no ? project manager: ah yeah maybe there . okay . user interface: up . project manager: who are you ? user interface: um at three i think . project manager: user interface: no ? mm . project manager: ouch . and user interface: industrial designer: okay . project manager: we have a technical problem uh . user interface: do we think w s in the in the wrong folder maybe ? it is possible . project manager: you put it on industrial designer: no . user interface: it was somewhere in something like this . i do n't remember the name actually must be something like messenger ami or something . industrial designer: what do you have in short cut ? user interface: go up . industrial designer: participant two . user interface: yeah go up . project manager: yeah . user interface: again . no . go back . project manager: you have no user interface: uh maybe messenger ami . messenger . project manager: over . okay . user interface: no . there is nothing . project manager: there 's no we have a technical problem . user interface: let 's go and check . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: i 'll go and check . industrial designer: otherwise , could you just describe by hand ? user interface: okay . industrial designer: with the the whiteboard ? project manager: if you remember yeah user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: but that 's user interface: so uh . basically what we want here is a remote control right . project manager: yeah . user interface: so um the question well first of all what to control . so most people want to have a a remote for their hi-fi and tv and stuff like that . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and but other people want th also remotes for controlling uh and toys like robotic pets and little robots and stuff industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and other people also want to have remotes for controlling um whole house . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , so there 's a project i think called x_ house or something like that that does that , uh you can integrate your remote with uh computers stuff . so industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: there is one that is one thing . the other is the the finder feature yeah by whistling or whatever . uh if you have the finder feature then you can also have industrial designer: okay . user interface: uh at the same time as and general voice commands if you want yeah . so i think it should be a package in that case . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: uh so the user interface will consist of two parts . one is the voice command part and on one is the actual buttons part . uh and th the buttons part would be uh a set of buttons for choosing devices , a set of buttons for special navigation in space , industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: a set of buttons for linear access of medium and a set of buttons for random access . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah ? industrial designer: what do you mean by linear access then ? user interface: like a video tape goes forward , backwards , uh fast and stuff yeah . industrial designer: ah . project manager: okay so special navigation , linear access , random access user interface: um . project manager: and there 's a fourth one no ? user interface: mm ? project manager: so the better now for special navigation ? user interface: yeah . for special navigation for example you might have a tv in the menu and you going to change yeah ? project manager: okay . then linear access user interface: uh . project manager: then random access . user interface: mm . yeah and also parameter changing . project manager: ah yeah parameter okay . user interface: so if there are common parameters maybe we should put special buttons for that um project manager: okay . user interface: or maybe we could have everything uh generic but uh there are a lot of uh remotes on the market right now and basically this is most of the almost everybody has this stuff . project manager: okay . okay and and voice command did you uh user interface: voice command w we could specify anything . we could assign any button a command to any button , if we have enough processing power , project manager: okay . okay . user interface: i guess so . yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: so that 's uh that close your investigations ? user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: uh yeah i think so . project manager: okay . user interface: not so far . project manager: maybe we can have a look at the user requirements with marketing: yeah . um i dunno if you can open the project manager: i dunno if i can open it . maybe you can s marketing: uh m is not here . project manager: it 's marketing: uh in yeah okay . project manager: messenger no ? marketing: no . in document . mm computer yeah . project manager: in which folder ? user interface: where did you put it ? marketing: here . here . project manager: short-cut to ami shared folder ? user interface: mm . marketing: but it 's not um . project manager: maybe you can send it to me by email . just to participant one . at ami . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah , i can do that . project manager: i will try to show it to everyone , that would be more comfortable . marketing: okay . um . project manager: you send it ? marketing: it 's participant one ? project manager: yeah . uh this is this email . user interface: i 'm designing the user interface . marketing: okay . you can uh . project manager: okay . so maybe i can switch slides when you whenever you ask , marketing: yeah . project manager: that will be more convenient . so okay , functional requirements . marketing: okay so you can you can go . okay so in our usability lab we observed the remote control use among one hundred subjects project manager: mm . marketing: and the subjects also filled a questionnaire project manager: yeah . marketing: okay ? and here i have the results so you can see that um seventy five per cent of users find most remote controls ugly so we have to find something to make them more more nice , more kind . eighty per cents of users would spend more money when the remote control would look fancy . eighty hundred per cent of users would spend more money when the remote control would look project manager: user interface: marketing: oh to it 's not good . so okay . project manager: we can just keep doing that ? marketing: so it 's not in theory but i i can i can say yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: fifty f uh seventy five per cent of users say they s zap a lot . so mm we have to have a remote control uh very um out for that . uh the buttons have are to be um uh uh like you say resist resisting to to shocks . project manager: okay . marketing: um and fifty per cents of users say they only use uh ten per cents of but of the buttons in the in the remote control . industrial designer: project manager: okay . marketing: so all the buttons we we have to put are have to to have um a use a real use project manager: okay . marketing: and not only or project manager: okay , so fewer buttons maybe would be good ? marketing: yeah . f not many buttons , and uh and uh uh u useable buttons . project manager: okay . user interface: but what kind of remote controls did you look at ? marketing: sorry ? user interface: what kind of task was it ? it was a tv ? marketing: yeah . uh most for most is tv . project manager: yeah . yeah but in fact we it it seems that we are going to make a tv remote control according to new requirements i received from the management user interface: huh . project manager: bo i will present them in the following . user interface: uh-huh . ah ! good . marketing: 'kay you can go so . project manager: okay . marketing: so there are other frustrations expressed by users , so they said uh they lost uh often the remote control in in the room so they want to have a way to to project manager: yeah . to find it . marketing: to find it . project manager: yeah . marketing: um and um lot of the time they it takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control . project manager: yeah . marketing: so they want something s really very simple and uh easy to use . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . marketing: and uh remote controls are bad for project manager: what is her other side ? marketing: r_s_i_ um user interface: other side yeah , yo wa your wrist marketing: i dunno . project manager: user interface: it i can become painful you can have tendonditis . project manager: oh yeah ? user interface: yeah . project manager: i did not knew that . user interface: if you also up on a computer in a strange position . project manager: okay so you we have to make it uh more ergonomic yeah . user interface: ergonomic . but uh . marketing: yeah . user interface: have to say ha ha . project manager: it 's your job marketing: project manager: oh . marketing: uh . project manager: uh sorry got a message from microsoft . industrial designer: marketing: okay um before that i i have some some some thing uh to say before um project manager: yeah . yeah yeah . marketing: we know that uh the user use uh a lot their um remote control um to to change channel . project manager: yeah . marketing: um and um to to change uh volume selection of the project manager: okay . marketing: and uh and not uh a lot for setting for setting the the channels and uh thing things like that . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so it 's better to put uh uh uh something very easy to set and uh and project manager: yeah . this function should be very uh accessible . marketing: very accessible yes . project manager: yeah , okay . this is the main function okay . marketing: that 's right . so then we asked some questions to them project manager: yeah . marketing: and um we asked this question if they prefer an lcd screen or on their remultific function remotes control project manager: yeah . marketing: and if they mm pay more for speech recognition in remote control project manager: yeah . marketing: and you can go we have here the results of user interface: the first question . marketing: of the questions . so you know that um project manager: marketing: for the younger it 's very important project manager: to have lcd and voice . marketing: to have the s yes and speech recognition . and uh and the others is not so important but uh we know that uh uh people between fifteen and twenty five are people who watch a lot tv and uh who who wh can use a lot this uh . project manager: okay . marketing: so maybe we we can have a speech recognition in . project manager: yeah maybe this this is important . marketing: yeah . project manager: moreover th maybe those uh like those teenager customer could advice their parents to buy this equipment and so we can user interface: mm . project manager: we have to take care of that point of view i think or so . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . marketing: okay and if there is th the conclusion now . so as we say before , i think uh um a remote control lightening in the dark it 's it 's a good thing . project manager: okay . marketing: uh not to many mud buttons like we we said before , project manager: yeah . marketing: e easy to use uh a way to find it easily in the room and uh uh resistant to to shock and to to industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . marketing: an i s no , yeah . project manager: okay these are the user requi marketing: i dunno if you see something else important or industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: i 'm just thinking of some thing . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: um we want to have a no , i do n't know if this is a good idea . we want to have a a general remote control for everything . project manager: no no no . we w it seems that we no want to have a tv remote control . from the management board i receive an email . user interface: mm . industrial designer: okay . yeah . project manager: cos it would be costly uh and and also it it would take more time to develop to have a a general generic remote control . industrial designer: yeah . yeah yeah . yeah . user interface: mm i it 's not true i think . the the second claim that you put . industrial designer: no no . project manager: that it would be too long to develop . user interface: yeah . marketing: user interface: i think that should be the same . project manager: oh yeah . because i received that email from management board and they seems to tell that that if we want to be on the market as early as possible we should uh focus on tv more where it seems that the market is more important . so maybe it 's a good decision . i dunno . what 's your opinion ? user interface: i have uh i 've no idea i mean i should know a bit more about how fast we can uh design it . marketing: user interface: i do n't think project manager: industrial designer: marketing: user interface: uh yeah . industrial designer: finish tonight . project manager: user interface: yeah . okay . yeah . industrial designer: but basically yeah maybe i can continue with my presentation , it would be al you you project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but i think we have some technical problem or so . so i 'm just going to describe briefly what we do in the remote control . project manager: maybe you can go to the whiteboard if you have some drawings to do industrial designer: if fact project manager: i do n't know . industrial designer: yeah but marketing: mm . industrial designer: do i have oh yeah . project manager: industrial designer: now i have enough cables . user interface: like a you feel a bit like a dog with this stuff . project manager: industrial designer: okay so i 'm just going to describe in fact for for a remote control this is quite easy . we just have project manager: user interface: industrial designer: sorry , i 'm going project manager: okay . user interface: project manager: are you okay ? industrial designer: like that . i 'm just going to describe . basically we have a a battery a power supply here . after that we just have um user interface . let 's say that um something like that , which could be um a lcd let 's say or um an array of push button , something like that . push button or a lcd . after that we we feed that into um uh an electronic chip . so i say u_c_ and i feed that to uh l_e_d_ which is uh infrared um which is a an infrared um component . and so what we for for myself this for for us this is quite easy . project manager: u_c_ is the central unit ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay yeah . industrial designer: y it 's a it 's this just a chip which does all the um numerical project manager: computation . industrial designer: numerical computation according to your display . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and so for us uh this is quite easy . we just need to take to define what we want to do when the user interface um wants something and after that we just do the coding to s and send that to to to the not the to the television . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so for us this is quite easy . project manager: okay so this is quite easy . there is not that much constraints . industrial designer: yeah . um we just have to define the processing power that we need uh especially if we want to do some uh speech recognition , in that case that mean that we are going to use more for simple user interface: this will think this will take more time to develop also . industrial designer: yeah of course of course . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and um but for a standard one this is really easy . it 's a question of one month and so on s user interface: soon . project manager: to have a you s you speak about with voi voice control ? industrial designer: no no no no , project manager: standard button one . industrial designer: i say yeah standard uh standard remote control takes maybe uh one month to to do that . user interface: yeah . so the only time problem is the sp voice recognition . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: definitely . user interface: yeah . project manager: so do you have any idea of how long it would take to have voice recognition now ? user interface: ten years . industrial designer: i would say . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: i would say uh about eight months to have the first results . project manager: okay so i it 's a bit long yeah . industrial designer: yeah . i can um . project manager: one month for the standard one with button . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: even if we have a lcd display ? industrial designer: yeah even . i mean that this is really standard devices now . um eight . for uh speech recognition . project manager: okay yeah . okay so we can take this into account . so who think it would be good to go for uh like speech recognition ? user interface: but we do n't have time to market . project manager: yeah it will . industrial designer: and also how much uh i think user interface: i think we should contact management . industrial designer: during the kickoff meeting you say that we we should n't we should n't go up to twelve point five euro per unit marketing: project manager: euros . yeah , yeah . industrial designer: so how many units should we sell to have a user interface: well . uh project manager: well each unit is is sell uh twenty five euros . industrial designer: yeah but how many yeah . user interface: how muc how much do you get how much do you if you buy one million units h no , one hundred thousand units . marketing: user interface: eh chips . we 're gon na need chips right . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . how much will it cost for one hundred thousand ? industrial designer: usually this is less tha at two dollars per chip . user interface: okay . project manager: because we are user interface: so you have any idea for a powerful one that has uh good enough for do speech recognition . industrial designer: yeah , user interface: yeah ? okay . industrial designer: we can user interface: so . project manager: it seems that that we want to sell like four million units from the first meeting . user interface: no it does n't . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: okay . four million . project manager: okay . maybe we can uh we can look at the new requirement i receive from the management board and discus discuss all function we want to have . marketing: mm . industrial designer: um i just had a question uh do you want to continue with your presenta ? marketing: project manager: yeah i i will continue . industrial designer: is it project manager: well ask your question if you want . industrial designer: um you say that i do n't remember by heart but thirty per cent marketing: mm ? industrial designer: of the tested people say that 's it 's quite difficult to to to use the remote control . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: do they say that this is difficult but for the same reason or do they have other reason ? to to marketing: oh . industrial designer: maybe to keep in mind maybe to access to that menu you should do something like that . marketing: would j uh yeah w i i think they they say that it 's uh difficult to learn how to use it but i when you know how to use it , it 's it 's okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: okay . it 's not intuitive first . industrial designer: and marketing: but yeah . industrial designer: but yeah maybe and what about if we design a remote control which can be configure as you want ? you say that i want , i have six button user interface: mh-hmm . a a lot of people are uh if you have the lcd screen if you can do it completely the way you want because the buttons also look the way you want them industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . but , but also it seems that industrial designer: yeah . user interface: but it will be hard to configure i mean imagine i uh project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so it 's really something for the expert user . so industrial designer: okay . user interface: i mean there are markets and markets . i think the young people are th uh are uh marketing: user interface: christine here said uh you have a industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: uh it is yeah . so for our young people uh it will be cool , they can be able to use it . th maybe their parents will not but they will configure it . i guess . i do n't know if there is study about that . project manager: yeah . maybe it would be more complex to configure it to be simple than creating a simple product . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: and there are another thing is that if we make something that 's simple and easy to use that 's bas to use immediately that means that it will be exactly the same as everything else . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: all right ? industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: otherwise , if it 's different then of course everybody has somebody has to learn to use it first . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: but also we we see that that most people find it find remote controls too complex because they have too many buttons and they mainly use only channels and volume buttons . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: mm . project manager: so we may just uh make a very easy to use remote control with mainly those buttons user interface: yeah . project manager: and maybe also um some lightning stuff too because most people find also hard to to find the remote control . losed lose it etcetera . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: these these are these two points are the main frustrations so maybe if we design something very simple and easy to uh find when lost it will uh add uh a serious competitive advantage without making something too complex and too long to develop . marketing: mm . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so but le let us see first the new requirement . so we do n't have to so this this uh is uh is um in the this is in the same direction as we were speaking so we do n't have to make a very complex remote controls to access teletext and stuff like that user interface: but teletext is just one button . project manager: yeah but then you have to you have to define the buttons to surf amongst pages and stuff . user interface: you you just write the write the numbers . project manager: yeah . so well user interface: so will you add with the channel keys , right ? project manager: yeah . so anyway we do n't have to include this feature because it 's it 's not used any more by users , user interface: so . project manager: they prefer to s user interface: i am . i 'm sure that uh it do n't like but uh i do n't see just one button . project manager: yeah . i dunno . user interface: so . project manager: if i one button is still one more button . if if if we want to make it very simple we have to reduce number of buttons compared to th to our competitors . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: well anyway i have this point . we can discuss . also um so as as i told before uh it would be better if it 's only for the tv um because we want to be quick on on the market . and then also we have to make very uh uh clear that this uh this remote control is is part of of our products and show our corporate uh logo and and colours on the on the design as well so that uh they identify it as one of our product . so this is the the key point . marketing: project manager: so before uh finishing we can uh define uh what would be the characteristic of the o th of the control of the remote control and which button do we need which function do we want etcetera . user interface: capital . marketing: mm . project manager: so do you um so so from from the the marketing expert i think a key aspect is the easy to use aspect , it should be very simple and most button are never used marketing: mm . project manager: only ten per cent of the button are are used often so i think we have to do something very simple and i think we all agree on that point , no ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: well if it is going to be just a tv remote control it is going to be very simple . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah okay . so yeah the key point here is simple . maybe . so few buttons , channel , volume control and what el what function do you see in addition to that ? user interface: well if it 's going to be as simple as possible then just have the remote control , there is no other function that i can see project manager: yeah . user interface: really . project manager: maybe switch tv on and off user interface: uh industrial designer: project manager: user interface: no you want to keep television on so that the advertising can revenue can come back to us . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: or something . marketing: project manager: volume , maybe a mute button , and then on off button . industrial designer: mm . project manager: and that 's all ? industrial designer: uh i know that som you say that many people are doing plenty of a lot of zapping . project manager: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: industrial designer: i know tha i discovered that when i did a quick look , uh they do now som they do something which is quite nice now , user interface: it 's a memory , yeah . industrial designer: you have a button , you you press it , and this is uh the previous channel which has come back . project manager: okay . yeah this is cool . maybe we can include that also . previous previous channel button . so we have like channel button , the previous channel button , the volume button , plus a mute button , and uh just the the traditional on off button . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: and uh and of course the channel changing buttons . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . i i talk about that , yeah ? user interface: how should they how should we implement that ? because uh could be numerical only or could be also incremental . project manager: yeah . incremental definitely because zapping you you switch them . industrial designer: user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: let 's say that we can do something like that . this is uh incremental , but once you press it for a long time , you go five by five . project manager: we go faster ? industrial designer: to go fa to go faster . project manager: mm . user interface: mm . it 's an interesting idea , that if you press it for a long time it does something else , in general . so if you you have your ten buttons for the for the numeric the numerical buttons and you have instead of having just one memory industrial designer: yeah . marketing: user interface: you have if you press them for a long time no . does n't work does it . project manager: maybe we should have also a digit button user interface: maybe we should have a complete keyboard and just type console commands . project manager: industrial designer: project manager: yeah . user interface: change channel to eight . project manager: maybe we have also to have digits or only incremental . user interface: no . project manager: i dunno bec because if you have the user interface: well if it 's useful like if if you want to change between three channels for example then you h you can not you can not can not work with just memory being incremental . project manager: uh . yeah . because you have your previous channel button if you have incremental only it 's not uh it is n't worth it because the previous channel is eith either minus one or plus one . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: so i think we need also digits . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: maybe we we can make very obvious the channel and volume button button and smaller button down there with the the digits . user interface: yeah when you zap usually you will have to press the same button all the time project manager: yeah . user interface: and industrial designer: or we can do something like that . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we can design the remote control to have access . you know some remote control have uh protection marketing: user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and so you you y project manager: yeah . user interface: hey i just thought this thing industrial designer: you user interface: there is a i mean you know there is are some with a wheel like this . instead of having the up down buttons for uh you can have the wheel . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , a kind of joystick . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . maybe we can have a wheel for incremental . user interface: project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: so have a wheel for incremental , have the digits uh on the lower side that can be closed so as you say protected , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh yeah i think this is the basi user interface: on the lower side i think it you have to turn it . project manager: and do we do we have a user interface: no ? if we do that . industrial designer: or a or a ball , yeah , not a a wheel but a ball , and you say uh to project manager: no , a wheel is better . user interface: yeah . project manager: i would say the wheel is better . user interface: because of that project manager: what is the expert of uh industrial designer: yeah . user interface: the channels change one by one . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so you have to the user has to like to should feel the the the discrete sense a bit . industrial designer: yeah , the project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . that 's a good idea . user interface: yeah . project manager: well also we have to decide uh so it should be lightening in the dark i think because most people lost their remote control . industrial designer: 's quite it 's quite easy we do that w with back light on the on the wheel . project manager: okay . marketing: user interface: yeah . even if i l_e_d_ uh or a if if it 's the lcd feature uh industrial designer: a blue a blue l_e_d_ and we sell that um . project manager: yeah , user interface: whatever , yeah . project manager: and do we put an lcd display ? marketing: user interface: yeah . project manager: because it was important for young customers if you remember . user interface: i think it 's only put on if cou have multi function . if you do not multi function then there is no p point in having lcd . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: just increase the cost . project manager: okay . user interface: the user does not have an advantage really . project manager: so no lcd ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: hmm . project manager: and so no speech as well because it w it would delay too much the development process user interface: well if it 's going to delay yeah industrial designer: okay . user interface: but uh it will be cool . it would . because a user could say c_n_n_ for example and it would go c_n_n_ . mm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . that would be cool . but eight months is really long user interface: yeah . project manager: and maybe we can just uh industrial designer: ten years project manager: user interface: project manager: okay . so um i i will uh i will so i we will move to next meeting so in after the lunch break uh here are the individual uh action uh you are required to do industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: but you will be uh recalled to the actions by uh email i think but you can take notes if you if you want but well the instruction will be sent . so thank you for uh your suggestion industrial designer: okay . project manager: and i i will make a summary of that meeting that i will put in the shared folder you ca n't see industrial designer: okay . okay . marketing: project manager: and uh and then you will um you will be able to to see what has been uh has been said on on this meeting and and what has been decided . uh maybe for next meeting uh send me your presentation before by email so that we can see them uh altogether . that would be easier . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: what is the folder that you put yours in ? and did it it did work ? marketing: no . project manager: no it did not work . marketing: no no . project manager: she send it to me by email . user interface: ah yeah . mm . marketing: i dunno , i dunno it . user interface: okay . project manager: so maybe this is better , to send it by email . okay ? user interface: okay what is your email ? project manager: so yeah i i 'm it 's in the first uh email so i 'm participant one at ami user interface: at participant one . okay . project manager: uh where is that , it 's here . participant one at ami . okay . so see you after lunch break . user interface: well during lunch break actually . marketing: 'kay thank you . user interface: so next time we should have a fight . project manager: user interface: how about uh management or something . who happens to be your friend . project manager: user interface: { gap }

as an extension to the previous discussion , this meeting basically dealt with the functional design of the remote control , for which user interface , marketing and industrial design respectively gave presentations on user requirement specification , subjects ' main frustrations and expectations for remote controls and technical design . subsequent to individual presentations , project manager then presented the new requirements from the management board , based on which the decisions on the needed functions of the remote control were made and the pre-arrangement of the next meeting was subsequently told .

summarize the discussion about marketing 's presentation on user requirement . </s> project manager: industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: okay . project manager: okay everyone 's ready . user interface: hello . project manager: so we are here for uh for uh functional design . user interface: project manager: okay ? so we are here for the functional design meeting mm so first i will show the agenda so we will uh i will take notes during this meeting so i will try to summarise it and put that summary in the shared folder if you want to look at it afterwards user interface: project manager: so then uh each of you will uh lead a presentation on the task that has been required last time so user requirement specification , technical function design and working design . then i will uh present you some new project requirements i received from uh the management board . then we will take uh the decision on on the remote control uh needed functions and then i will assign you the task for the next part of the meeting . of the of the process . so uh who want to start the the presentation of what they did ? industrial designer: f do you want to start ? user interface: make a start yeah . project manager: you can start . user interface: so . project manager: user interface: cable , camera . project manager: you have uh powerpoint ? user interface: should be in my in their folder no ? project manager: ah yeah maybe there . okay . user interface: up . project manager: who are you ? user interface: um at three i think . project manager: user interface: no ? mm . project manager: ouch . and user interface: industrial designer: okay . project manager: we have a technical problem uh . user interface: do we think w s in the in the wrong folder maybe ? it is possible . project manager: you put it on industrial designer: no . user interface: it was somewhere in something like this . i do n't remember the name actually must be something like messenger ami or something . industrial designer: what do you have in short cut ? user interface: go up . industrial designer: participant two . user interface: yeah go up . project manager: yeah . user interface: again . no . go back . project manager: you have no user interface: uh maybe messenger ami . messenger . project manager: over . okay . user interface: no . there is nothing . project manager: there 's no we have a technical problem . user interface: let 's go and check . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: i 'll go and check . industrial designer: otherwise , could you just describe by hand ? user interface: okay . industrial designer: with the the whiteboard ? project manager: if you remember yeah user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: but that 's user interface: so uh . basically what we want here is a remote control right . project manager: yeah . user interface: so um the question well first of all what to control . so most people want to have a a remote for their hi-fi and tv and stuff like that . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and but other people want th also remotes for controlling uh and toys like robotic pets and little robots and stuff industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and other people also want to have remotes for controlling um whole house . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , so there 's a project i think called x_ house or something like that that does that , uh you can integrate your remote with uh computers stuff . so industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: there is one that is one thing . the other is the the finder feature yeah by whistling or whatever . uh if you have the finder feature then you can also have industrial designer: okay . user interface: uh at the same time as and general voice commands if you want yeah . so i think it should be a package in that case . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: uh so the user interface will consist of two parts . one is the voice command part and on one is the actual buttons part . uh and th the buttons part would be uh a set of buttons for choosing devices , a set of buttons for special navigation in space , industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: a set of buttons for linear access of medium and a set of buttons for random access . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah ? industrial designer: what do you mean by linear access then ? user interface: like a video tape goes forward , backwards , uh fast and stuff yeah . industrial designer: ah . project manager: okay so special navigation , linear access , random access user interface: um . project manager: and there 's a fourth one no ? user interface: mm ? project manager: so the better now for special navigation ? user interface: yeah . for special navigation for example you might have a tv in the menu and you going to change yeah ? project manager: okay . then linear access user interface: uh . project manager: then random access . user interface: mm . yeah and also parameter changing . project manager: ah yeah parameter okay . user interface: so if there are common parameters maybe we should put special buttons for that um project manager: okay . user interface: or maybe we could have everything uh generic but uh there are a lot of uh remotes on the market right now and basically this is most of the almost everybody has this stuff . project manager: okay . okay and and voice command did you uh user interface: voice command w we could specify anything . we could assign any button a command to any button , if we have enough processing power , project manager: okay . okay . user interface: i guess so . yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: so that 's uh that close your investigations ? user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: uh yeah i think so . project manager: okay . user interface: not so far . project manager: maybe we can have a look at the user requirements with marketing: yeah . um i dunno if you can open the project manager: i dunno if i can open it . maybe you can s marketing: uh m is not here . project manager: it 's marketing: uh in yeah okay . project manager: messenger no ? marketing: no . in document . mm computer yeah . project manager: in which folder ? user interface: where did you put it ? marketing: here . here . project manager: short-cut to ami shared folder ? user interface: mm . marketing: but it 's not um . project manager: maybe you can send it to me by email . just to participant one . at ami . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah , i can do that . project manager: i will try to show it to everyone , that would be more comfortable . marketing: okay . um . project manager: you send it ? marketing: it 's participant one ? project manager: yeah . uh this is this email . user interface: i 'm designing the user interface . marketing: okay . you can uh . project manager: okay . so maybe i can switch slides when you whenever you ask , marketing: yeah . project manager: that will be more convenient . so okay , functional requirements . marketing: okay so you can you can go . okay so in our usability lab we observed the remote control use among one hundred subjects project manager: mm . marketing: and the subjects also filled a questionnaire project manager: yeah . marketing: okay ? and here i have the results so you can see that um seventy five per cent of users find most remote controls ugly so we have to find something to make them more more nice , more kind . eighty per cents of users would spend more money when the remote control would look fancy . eighty hundred per cent of users would spend more money when the remote control would look project manager: user interface: marketing: oh to it 's not good . so okay . project manager: we can just keep doing that ? marketing: so it 's not in theory but i i can i can say yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: fifty f uh seventy five per cent of users say they s zap a lot . so mm we have to have a remote control uh very um out for that . uh the buttons have are to be um uh uh like you say resist resisting to to shocks . project manager: okay . marketing: um and fifty per cents of users say they only use uh ten per cents of but of the buttons in the in the remote control . industrial designer: project manager: okay . marketing: so all the buttons we we have to put are have to to have um a use a real use project manager: okay . marketing: and not only or project manager: okay , so fewer buttons maybe would be good ? marketing: yeah . f not many buttons , and uh and uh uh u useable buttons . project manager: okay . user interface: but what kind of remote controls did you look at ? marketing: sorry ? user interface: what kind of task was it ? it was a tv ? marketing: yeah . uh most for most is tv . project manager: yeah . yeah but in fact we it it seems that we are going to make a tv remote control according to new requirements i received from the management user interface: huh . project manager: bo i will present them in the following . user interface: uh-huh . ah ! good . marketing: 'kay you can go so . project manager: okay . marketing: so there are other frustrations expressed by users , so they said uh they lost uh often the remote control in in the room so they want to have a way to to project manager: yeah . to find it . marketing: to find it . project manager: yeah . marketing: um and um lot of the time they it takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control . project manager: yeah . marketing: so they want something s really very simple and uh easy to use . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . marketing: and uh remote controls are bad for project manager: what is her other side ? marketing: r_s_i_ um user interface: other side yeah , yo wa your wrist marketing: i dunno . project manager: user interface: it i can become painful you can have tendonditis . project manager: oh yeah ? user interface: yeah . project manager: i did not knew that . user interface: if you also up on a computer in a strange position . project manager: okay so you we have to make it uh more ergonomic yeah . user interface: ergonomic . but uh . marketing: yeah . user interface: have to say ha ha . project manager: it 's your job marketing: project manager: oh . marketing: uh . project manager: uh sorry got a message from microsoft . industrial designer: marketing: okay um before that i i have some some some thing uh to say before um project manager: yeah . yeah yeah . marketing: we know that uh the user use uh a lot their um remote control um to to change channel . project manager: yeah . marketing: um and um to to change uh volume selection of the project manager: okay . marketing: and uh and not uh a lot for setting for setting the the channels and uh thing things like that . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so it 's better to put uh uh uh something very easy to set and uh and project manager: yeah . this function should be very uh accessible . marketing: very accessible yes . project manager: yeah , okay . this is the main function okay . marketing: that 's right . so then we asked some questions to them project manager: yeah . marketing: and um we asked this question if they prefer an lcd screen or on their remultific function remotes control project manager: yeah . marketing: and if they mm pay more for speech recognition in remote control project manager: yeah . marketing: and you can go we have here the results of user interface: the first question . marketing: of the questions . so you know that um project manager: marketing: for the younger it 's very important project manager: to have lcd and voice . marketing: to have the s yes and speech recognition . and uh and the others is not so important but uh we know that uh uh people between fifteen and twenty five are people who watch a lot tv and uh who who wh can use a lot this uh . project manager: okay . marketing: so maybe we we can have a speech recognition in . project manager: yeah maybe this this is important . marketing: yeah . project manager: moreover th maybe those uh like those teenager customer could advice their parents to buy this equipment and so we can user interface: mm . project manager: we have to take care of that point of view i think or so . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . marketing: okay and if there is th the conclusion now . so as we say before , i think uh um a remote control lightening in the dark it 's it 's a good thing . project manager: okay . marketing: uh not to many mud buttons like we we said before , project manager: yeah . marketing: e easy to use uh a way to find it easily in the room and uh uh resistant to to shock and to to industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . marketing: an i s no , yeah . project manager: okay these are the user requi marketing: i dunno if you see something else important or industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: i 'm just thinking of some thing . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: um we want to have a no , i do n't know if this is a good idea . we want to have a a general remote control for everything . project manager: no no no . we w it seems that we no want to have a tv remote control . from the management board i receive an email . user interface: mm . industrial designer: okay . yeah . project manager: cos it would be costly uh and and also it it would take more time to develop to have a a general generic remote control . industrial designer: yeah . yeah yeah . yeah . user interface: mm i it 's not true i think . the the second claim that you put . industrial designer: no no . project manager: that it would be too long to develop . user interface: yeah . marketing: user interface: i think that should be the same . project manager: oh yeah . because i received that email from management board and they seems to tell that that if we want to be on the market as early as possible we should uh focus on tv more where it seems that the market is more important . so maybe it 's a good decision . i dunno . what 's your opinion ? user interface: i have uh i 've no idea i mean i should know a bit more about how fast we can uh design it . marketing: user interface: i do n't think project manager: industrial designer: marketing: user interface: uh yeah . industrial designer: finish tonight . project manager: user interface: yeah . okay . yeah . industrial designer: but basically yeah maybe i can continue with my presentation , it would be al you you project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but i think we have some technical problem or so . so i 'm just going to describe briefly what we do in the remote control . project manager: maybe you can go to the whiteboard if you have some drawings to do industrial designer: if fact project manager: i do n't know . industrial designer: yeah but marketing: mm . industrial designer: do i have oh yeah . project manager: industrial designer: now i have enough cables . user interface: like a you feel a bit like a dog with this stuff . project manager: industrial designer: okay so i 'm just going to describe in fact for for a remote control this is quite easy . we just have project manager: user interface: industrial designer: sorry , i 'm going project manager: okay . user interface: project manager: are you okay ? industrial designer: like that . i 'm just going to describe . basically we have a a battery a power supply here . after that we just have um user interface . let 's say that um something like that , which could be um a lcd let 's say or um an array of push button , something like that . push button or a lcd . after that we we feed that into um uh an electronic chip . so i say u_c_ and i feed that to uh l_e_d_ which is uh infrared um which is a an infrared um component . and so what we for for myself this for for us this is quite easy . project manager: u_c_ is the central unit ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay yeah . industrial designer: y it 's a it 's this just a chip which does all the um numerical project manager: computation . industrial designer: numerical computation according to your display . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and so for us uh this is quite easy . we just need to take to define what we want to do when the user interface um wants something and after that we just do the coding to s and send that to to to the not the to the television . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so for us this is quite easy . project manager: okay so this is quite easy . there is not that much constraints . industrial designer: yeah . um we just have to define the processing power that we need uh especially if we want to do some uh speech recognition , in that case that mean that we are going to use more for simple user interface: this will think this will take more time to develop also . industrial designer: yeah of course of course . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and um but for a standard one this is really easy . it 's a question of one month and so on s user interface: soon . project manager: to have a you s you speak about with voi voice control ? industrial designer: no no no no , project manager: standard button one . industrial designer: i say yeah standard uh standard remote control takes maybe uh one month to to do that . user interface: yeah . so the only time problem is the sp voice recognition . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: definitely . user interface: yeah . project manager: so do you have any idea of how long it would take to have voice recognition now ? user interface: ten years . industrial designer: i would say . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: i would say uh about eight months to have the first results . project manager: okay so i it 's a bit long yeah . industrial designer: yeah . i can um . project manager: one month for the standard one with button . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: even if we have a lcd display ? industrial designer: yeah even . i mean that this is really standard devices now . um eight . for uh speech recognition . project manager: okay yeah . okay so we can take this into account . so who think it would be good to go for uh like speech recognition ? user interface: but we do n't have time to market . project manager: yeah it will . industrial designer: and also how much uh i think user interface: i think we should contact management . industrial designer: during the kickoff meeting you say that we we should n't we should n't go up to twelve point five euro per unit marketing: project manager: euros . yeah , yeah . industrial designer: so how many units should we sell to have a user interface: well . uh project manager: well each unit is is sell uh twenty five euros . industrial designer: yeah but how many yeah . user interface: how muc how much do you get how much do you if you buy one million units h no , one hundred thousand units . marketing: user interface: eh chips . we 're gon na need chips right . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . how much will it cost for one hundred thousand ? industrial designer: usually this is less tha at two dollars per chip . user interface: okay . project manager: because we are user interface: so you have any idea for a powerful one that has uh good enough for do speech recognition . industrial designer: yeah , user interface: yeah ? okay . industrial designer: we can user interface: so . project manager: it seems that that we want to sell like four million units from the first meeting . user interface: no it does n't . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: okay . four million . project manager: okay . maybe we can uh we can look at the new requirement i receive from the management board and discus discuss all function we want to have . marketing: mm . industrial designer: um i just had a question uh do you want to continue with your presenta ? marketing: project manager: yeah i i will continue . industrial designer: is it project manager: well ask your question if you want . industrial designer: um you say that i do n't remember by heart but thirty per cent marketing: mm ? industrial designer: of the tested people say that 's it 's quite difficult to to to use the remote control . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: do they say that this is difficult but for the same reason or do they have other reason ? to to marketing: oh . industrial designer: maybe to keep in mind maybe to access to that menu you should do something like that . marketing: would j uh yeah w i i think they they say that it 's uh difficult to learn how to use it but i when you know how to use it , it 's it 's okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: okay . it 's not intuitive first . industrial designer: and marketing: but yeah . industrial designer: but yeah maybe and what about if we design a remote control which can be configure as you want ? you say that i want , i have six button user interface: mh-hmm . a a lot of people are uh if you have the lcd screen if you can do it completely the way you want because the buttons also look the way you want them industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . but , but also it seems that industrial designer: yeah . user interface: but it will be hard to configure i mean imagine i uh project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so it 's really something for the expert user . so industrial designer: okay . user interface: i mean there are markets and markets . i think the young people are th uh are uh marketing: user interface: christine here said uh you have a industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: uh it is yeah . so for our young people uh it will be cool , they can be able to use it . th maybe their parents will not but they will configure it . i guess . i do n't know if there is study about that . project manager: yeah . maybe it would be more complex to configure it to be simple than creating a simple product . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: and there are another thing is that if we make something that 's simple and easy to use that 's bas to use immediately that means that it will be exactly the same as everything else . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: all right ? industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: otherwise , if it 's different then of course everybody has somebody has to learn to use it first . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: but also we we see that that most people find it find remote controls too complex because they have too many buttons and they mainly use only channels and volume buttons . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: mm . project manager: so we may just uh make a very easy to use remote control with mainly those buttons user interface: yeah . project manager: and maybe also um some lightning stuff too because most people find also hard to to find the remote control . losed lose it etcetera . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: these these are these two points are the main frustrations so maybe if we design something very simple and easy to uh find when lost it will uh add uh a serious competitive advantage without making something too complex and too long to develop . marketing: mm . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so but le let us see first the new requirement . so we do n't have to so this this uh is uh is um in the this is in the same direction as we were speaking so we do n't have to make a very complex remote controls to access teletext and stuff like that user interface: but teletext is just one button . project manager: yeah but then you have to you have to define the buttons to surf amongst pages and stuff . user interface: you you just write the write the numbers . project manager: yeah . so well user interface: so will you add with the channel keys , right ? project manager: yeah . so anyway we do n't have to include this feature because it 's it 's not used any more by users , user interface: so . project manager: they prefer to s user interface: i am . i 'm sure that uh it do n't like but uh i do n't see just one button . project manager: yeah . i dunno . user interface: so . project manager: if i one button is still one more button . if if if we want to make it very simple we have to reduce number of buttons compared to th to our competitors . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: well anyway i have this point . we can discuss . also um so as as i told before uh it would be better if it 's only for the tv um because we want to be quick on on the market . and then also we have to make very uh uh clear that this uh this remote control is is part of of our products and show our corporate uh logo and and colours on the on the design as well so that uh they identify it as one of our product . so this is the the key point . marketing: project manager: so before uh finishing we can uh define uh what would be the characteristic of the o th of the control of the remote control and which button do we need which function do we want etcetera . user interface: capital . marketing: mm . project manager: so do you um so so from from the the marketing expert i think a key aspect is the easy to use aspect , it should be very simple and most button are never used marketing: mm . project manager: only ten per cent of the button are are used often so i think we have to do something very simple and i think we all agree on that point , no ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: well if it is going to be just a tv remote control it is going to be very simple . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah okay . so yeah the key point here is simple . maybe . so few buttons , channel , volume control and what el what function do you see in addition to that ? user interface: well if it 's going to be as simple as possible then just have the remote control , there is no other function that i can see project manager: yeah . user interface: really . project manager: maybe switch tv on and off user interface: uh industrial designer: project manager: user interface: no you want to keep television on so that the advertising can revenue can come back to us . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: or something . marketing: project manager: volume , maybe a mute button , and then on off button . industrial designer: mm . project manager: and that 's all ? industrial designer: uh i know that som you say that many people are doing plenty of a lot of zapping . project manager: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: industrial designer: i know tha i discovered that when i did a quick look , uh they do now som they do something which is quite nice now , user interface: it 's a memory , yeah . industrial designer: you have a button , you you press it , and this is uh the previous channel which has come back . project manager: okay . yeah this is cool . maybe we can include that also . previous previous channel button . so we have like channel button , the previous channel button , the volume button , plus a mute button , and uh just the the traditional on off button . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: and uh and of course the channel changing buttons . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . i i talk about that , yeah ? user interface: how should they how should we implement that ? because uh could be numerical only or could be also incremental . project manager: yeah . incremental definitely because zapping you you switch them . industrial designer: user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: let 's say that we can do something like that . this is uh incremental , but once you press it for a long time , you go five by five . project manager: we go faster ? industrial designer: to go fa to go faster . project manager: mm . user interface: mm . it 's an interesting idea , that if you press it for a long time it does something else , in general . so if you you have your ten buttons for the for the numeric the numerical buttons and you have instead of having just one memory industrial designer: yeah . marketing: user interface: you have if you press them for a long time no . does n't work does it . project manager: maybe we should have also a digit button user interface: maybe we should have a complete keyboard and just type console commands . project manager: industrial designer: project manager: yeah . user interface: change channel to eight . project manager: maybe we have also to have digits or only incremental . user interface: no . project manager: i dunno bec because if you have the user interface: well if it 's useful like if if you want to change between three channels for example then you h you can not you can not can not work with just memory being incremental . project manager: uh . yeah . because you have your previous channel button if you have incremental only it 's not uh it is n't worth it because the previous channel is eith either minus one or plus one . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: so i think we need also digits . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: maybe we we can make very obvious the channel and volume button button and smaller button down there with the the digits . user interface: yeah when you zap usually you will have to press the same button all the time project manager: yeah . user interface: and industrial designer: or we can do something like that . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we can design the remote control to have access . you know some remote control have uh protection marketing: user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and so you you y project manager: yeah . user interface: hey i just thought this thing industrial designer: you user interface: there is a i mean you know there is are some with a wheel like this . instead of having the up down buttons for uh you can have the wheel . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , a kind of joystick . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . maybe we can have a wheel for incremental . user interface: project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: so have a wheel for incremental , have the digits uh on the lower side that can be closed so as you say protected , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh yeah i think this is the basi user interface: on the lower side i think it you have to turn it . project manager: and do we do we have a user interface: no ? if we do that . industrial designer: or a or a ball , yeah , not a a wheel but a ball , and you say uh to project manager: no , a wheel is better . user interface: yeah . project manager: i would say the wheel is better . user interface: because of that project manager: what is the expert of uh industrial designer: yeah . user interface: the channels change one by one . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so you have to the user has to like to should feel the the the discrete sense a bit . industrial designer: yeah , the project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . that 's a good idea . user interface: yeah . project manager: well also we have to decide uh so it should be lightening in the dark i think because most people lost their remote control . industrial designer: 's quite it 's quite easy we do that w with back light on the on the wheel . project manager: okay . marketing: user interface: yeah . even if i l_e_d_ uh or a if if it 's the lcd feature uh industrial designer: a blue a blue l_e_d_ and we sell that um . project manager: yeah , user interface: whatever , yeah . project manager: and do we put an lcd display ? marketing: user interface: yeah . project manager: because it was important for young customers if you remember . user interface: i think it 's only put on if cou have multi function . if you do not multi function then there is no p point in having lcd . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: just increase the cost . project manager: okay . user interface: the user does not have an advantage really . project manager: so no lcd ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: hmm . project manager: and so no speech as well because it w it would delay too much the development process user interface: well if it 's going to delay yeah industrial designer: okay . user interface: but uh it will be cool . it would . because a user could say c_n_n_ for example and it would go c_n_n_ . mm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . that would be cool . but eight months is really long user interface: yeah . project manager: and maybe we can just uh industrial designer: ten years project manager: user interface: project manager: okay . so um i i will uh i will so i we will move to next meeting so in after the lunch break uh here are the individual uh action uh you are required to do industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: but you will be uh recalled to the actions by uh email i think but you can take notes if you if you want but well the instruction will be sent . so thank you for uh your suggestion industrial designer: okay . project manager: and i i will make a summary of that meeting that i will put in the shared folder you ca n't see industrial designer: okay . okay . marketing: project manager: and uh and then you will um you will be able to to see what has been uh has been said on on this meeting and and what has been decided . uh maybe for next meeting uh send me your presentation before by email so that we can see them uh altogether . that would be easier . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: what is the folder that you put yours in ? and did it it did work ? marketing: no . project manager: no it did not work . marketing: no no . project manager: she send it to me by email . user interface: ah yeah . mm . marketing: i dunno , i dunno it . user interface: okay . project manager: so maybe this is better , to send it by email . okay ? user interface: okay what is your email ? project manager: so yeah i i 'm it 's in the first uh email so i 'm participant one at ami user interface: at participant one . okay . project manager: uh where is that , it 's here . participant one at ami . okay . so see you after lunch break . user interface: well during lunch break actually . marketing: 'kay thank you . user interface: so next time we should have a fight . project manager: user interface: how about uh management or something . who happens to be your friend . project manager: user interface: { gap }

marketing mainly focused on users ' frustrations and expectations for remote controls . apart from the requirements for a fancier look , shock-resistance , and limited but usable buttons , other expectations were also raised by users , such as the need to be found , to easily use , to light in the dark , and the need of ergonomic design . moreover , lcd and speech recognition also seemed important , especially for people between 15 and 25 who watched tv a lot . last but not least , the previous plan for a generic remote control for everything failed due to the imbalance between the long developing time and the timely need to be on the market .

what did user interface think of the ergonomic need for remote controls when discussing the user requirement ? </s> project manager: industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: okay . project manager: okay everyone 's ready . user interface: hello . project manager: so we are here for uh for uh functional design . user interface: project manager: okay ? so we are here for the functional design meeting mm so first i will show the agenda so we will uh i will take notes during this meeting so i will try to summarise it and put that summary in the shared folder if you want to look at it afterwards user interface: project manager: so then uh each of you will uh lead a presentation on the task that has been required last time so user requirement specification , technical function design and working design . then i will uh present you some new project requirements i received from uh the management board . then we will take uh the decision on on the remote control uh needed functions and then i will assign you the task for the next part of the meeting . of the of the process . so uh who want to start the the presentation of what they did ? industrial designer: f do you want to start ? user interface: make a start yeah . project manager: you can start . user interface: so . project manager: user interface: cable , camera . project manager: you have uh powerpoint ? user interface: should be in my in their folder no ? project manager: ah yeah maybe there . okay . user interface: up . project manager: who are you ? user interface: um at three i think . project manager: user interface: no ? mm . project manager: ouch . and user interface: industrial designer: okay . project manager: we have a technical problem uh . user interface: do we think w s in the in the wrong folder maybe ? it is possible . project manager: you put it on industrial designer: no . user interface: it was somewhere in something like this . i do n't remember the name actually must be something like messenger ami or something . industrial designer: what do you have in short cut ? user interface: go up . industrial designer: participant two . user interface: yeah go up . project manager: yeah . user interface: again . no . go back . project manager: you have no user interface: uh maybe messenger ami . messenger . project manager: over . okay . user interface: no . there is nothing . project manager: there 's no we have a technical problem . user interface: let 's go and check . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: i 'll go and check . industrial designer: otherwise , could you just describe by hand ? user interface: okay . industrial designer: with the the whiteboard ? project manager: if you remember yeah user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: but that 's user interface: so uh . basically what we want here is a remote control right . project manager: yeah . user interface: so um the question well first of all what to control . so most people want to have a a remote for their hi-fi and tv and stuff like that . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and but other people want th also remotes for controlling uh and toys like robotic pets and little robots and stuff industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and other people also want to have remotes for controlling um whole house . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , so there 's a project i think called x_ house or something like that that does that , uh you can integrate your remote with uh computers stuff . so industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: there is one that is one thing . the other is the the finder feature yeah by whistling or whatever . uh if you have the finder feature then you can also have industrial designer: okay . user interface: uh at the same time as and general voice commands if you want yeah . so i think it should be a package in that case . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: uh so the user interface will consist of two parts . one is the voice command part and on one is the actual buttons part . uh and th the buttons part would be uh a set of buttons for choosing devices , a set of buttons for special navigation in space , industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: a set of buttons for linear access of medium and a set of buttons for random access . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah ? industrial designer: what do you mean by linear access then ? user interface: like a video tape goes forward , backwards , uh fast and stuff yeah . industrial designer: ah . project manager: okay so special navigation , linear access , random access user interface: um . project manager: and there 's a fourth one no ? user interface: mm ? project manager: so the better now for special navigation ? user interface: yeah . for special navigation for example you might have a tv in the menu and you going to change yeah ? project manager: okay . then linear access user interface: uh . project manager: then random access . user interface: mm . yeah and also parameter changing . project manager: ah yeah parameter okay . user interface: so if there are common parameters maybe we should put special buttons for that um project manager: okay . user interface: or maybe we could have everything uh generic but uh there are a lot of uh remotes on the market right now and basically this is most of the almost everybody has this stuff . project manager: okay . okay and and voice command did you uh user interface: voice command w we could specify anything . we could assign any button a command to any button , if we have enough processing power , project manager: okay . okay . user interface: i guess so . yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: so that 's uh that close your investigations ? user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: uh yeah i think so . project manager: okay . user interface: not so far . project manager: maybe we can have a look at the user requirements with marketing: yeah . um i dunno if you can open the project manager: i dunno if i can open it . maybe you can s marketing: uh m is not here . project manager: it 's marketing: uh in yeah okay . project manager: messenger no ? marketing: no . in document . mm computer yeah . project manager: in which folder ? user interface: where did you put it ? marketing: here . here . project manager: short-cut to ami shared folder ? user interface: mm . marketing: but it 's not um . project manager: maybe you can send it to me by email . just to participant one . at ami . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah , i can do that . project manager: i will try to show it to everyone , that would be more comfortable . marketing: okay . um . project manager: you send it ? marketing: it 's participant one ? project manager: yeah . uh this is this email . user interface: i 'm designing the user interface . marketing: okay . you can uh . project manager: okay . so maybe i can switch slides when you whenever you ask , marketing: yeah . project manager: that will be more convenient . so okay , functional requirements . marketing: okay so you can you can go . okay so in our usability lab we observed the remote control use among one hundred subjects project manager: mm . marketing: and the subjects also filled a questionnaire project manager: yeah . marketing: okay ? and here i have the results so you can see that um seventy five per cent of users find most remote controls ugly so we have to find something to make them more more nice , more kind . eighty per cents of users would spend more money when the remote control would look fancy . eighty hundred per cent of users would spend more money when the remote control would look project manager: user interface: marketing: oh to it 's not good . so okay . project manager: we can just keep doing that ? marketing: so it 's not in theory but i i can i can say yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: fifty f uh seventy five per cent of users say they s zap a lot . so mm we have to have a remote control uh very um out for that . uh the buttons have are to be um uh uh like you say resist resisting to to shocks . project manager: okay . marketing: um and fifty per cents of users say they only use uh ten per cents of but of the buttons in the in the remote control . industrial designer: project manager: okay . marketing: so all the buttons we we have to put are have to to have um a use a real use project manager: okay . marketing: and not only or project manager: okay , so fewer buttons maybe would be good ? marketing: yeah . f not many buttons , and uh and uh uh u useable buttons . project manager: okay . user interface: but what kind of remote controls did you look at ? marketing: sorry ? user interface: what kind of task was it ? it was a tv ? marketing: yeah . uh most for most is tv . project manager: yeah . yeah but in fact we it it seems that we are going to make a tv remote control according to new requirements i received from the management user interface: huh . project manager: bo i will present them in the following . user interface: uh-huh . ah ! good . marketing: 'kay you can go so . project manager: okay . marketing: so there are other frustrations expressed by users , so they said uh they lost uh often the remote control in in the room so they want to have a way to to project manager: yeah . to find it . marketing: to find it . project manager: yeah . marketing: um and um lot of the time they it takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control . project manager: yeah . marketing: so they want something s really very simple and uh easy to use . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . marketing: and uh remote controls are bad for project manager: what is her other side ? marketing: r_s_i_ um user interface: other side yeah , yo wa your wrist marketing: i dunno . project manager: user interface: it i can become painful you can have tendonditis . project manager: oh yeah ? user interface: yeah . project manager: i did not knew that . user interface: if you also up on a computer in a strange position . project manager: okay so you we have to make it uh more ergonomic yeah . user interface: ergonomic . but uh . marketing: yeah . user interface: have to say ha ha . project manager: it 's your job marketing: project manager: oh . marketing: uh . project manager: uh sorry got a message from microsoft . industrial designer: marketing: okay um before that i i have some some some thing uh to say before um project manager: yeah . yeah yeah . marketing: we know that uh the user use uh a lot their um remote control um to to change channel . project manager: yeah . marketing: um and um to to change uh volume selection of the project manager: okay . marketing: and uh and not uh a lot for setting for setting the the channels and uh thing things like that . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so it 's better to put uh uh uh something very easy to set and uh and project manager: yeah . this function should be very uh accessible . marketing: very accessible yes . project manager: yeah , okay . this is the main function okay . marketing: that 's right . so then we asked some questions to them project manager: yeah . marketing: and um we asked this question if they prefer an lcd screen or on their remultific function remotes control project manager: yeah . marketing: and if they mm pay more for speech recognition in remote control project manager: yeah . marketing: and you can go we have here the results of user interface: the first question . marketing: of the questions . so you know that um project manager: marketing: for the younger it 's very important project manager: to have lcd and voice . marketing: to have the s yes and speech recognition . and uh and the others is not so important but uh we know that uh uh people between fifteen and twenty five are people who watch a lot tv and uh who who wh can use a lot this uh . project manager: okay . marketing: so maybe we we can have a speech recognition in . project manager: yeah maybe this this is important . marketing: yeah . project manager: moreover th maybe those uh like those teenager customer could advice their parents to buy this equipment and so we can user interface: mm . project manager: we have to take care of that point of view i think or so . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . marketing: okay and if there is th the conclusion now . so as we say before , i think uh um a remote control lightening in the dark it 's it 's a good thing . project manager: okay . marketing: uh not to many mud buttons like we we said before , project manager: yeah . marketing: e easy to use uh a way to find it easily in the room and uh uh resistant to to shock and to to industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . marketing: an i s no , yeah . project manager: okay these are the user requi marketing: i dunno if you see something else important or industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: i 'm just thinking of some thing . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: um we want to have a no , i do n't know if this is a good idea . we want to have a a general remote control for everything . project manager: no no no . we w it seems that we no want to have a tv remote control . from the management board i receive an email . user interface: mm . industrial designer: okay . yeah . project manager: cos it would be costly uh and and also it it would take more time to develop to have a a general generic remote control . industrial designer: yeah . yeah yeah . yeah . user interface: mm i it 's not true i think . the the second claim that you put . industrial designer: no no . project manager: that it would be too long to develop . user interface: yeah . marketing: user interface: i think that should be the same . project manager: oh yeah . because i received that email from management board and they seems to tell that that if we want to be on the market as early as possible we should uh focus on tv more where it seems that the market is more important . so maybe it 's a good decision . i dunno . what 's your opinion ? user interface: i have uh i 've no idea i mean i should know a bit more about how fast we can uh design it . marketing: user interface: i do n't think project manager: industrial designer: marketing: user interface: uh yeah . industrial designer: finish tonight . project manager: user interface: yeah . okay . yeah . industrial designer: but basically yeah maybe i can continue with my presentation , it would be al you you project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but i think we have some technical problem or so . so i 'm just going to describe briefly what we do in the remote control . project manager: maybe you can go to the whiteboard if you have some drawings to do industrial designer: if fact project manager: i do n't know . industrial designer: yeah but marketing: mm . industrial designer: do i have oh yeah . project manager: industrial designer: now i have enough cables . user interface: like a you feel a bit like a dog with this stuff . project manager: industrial designer: okay so i 'm just going to describe in fact for for a remote control this is quite easy . we just have project manager: user interface: industrial designer: sorry , i 'm going project manager: okay . user interface: project manager: are you okay ? industrial designer: like that . i 'm just going to describe . basically we have a a battery a power supply here . after that we just have um user interface . let 's say that um something like that , which could be um a lcd let 's say or um an array of push button , something like that . push button or a lcd . after that we we feed that into um uh an electronic chip . so i say u_c_ and i feed that to uh l_e_d_ which is uh infrared um which is a an infrared um component . and so what we for for myself this for for us this is quite easy . project manager: u_c_ is the central unit ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay yeah . industrial designer: y it 's a it 's this just a chip which does all the um numerical project manager: computation . industrial designer: numerical computation according to your display . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and so for us uh this is quite easy . we just need to take to define what we want to do when the user interface um wants something and after that we just do the coding to s and send that to to to the not the to the television . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so for us this is quite easy . project manager: okay so this is quite easy . there is not that much constraints . industrial designer: yeah . um we just have to define the processing power that we need uh especially if we want to do some uh speech recognition , in that case that mean that we are going to use more for simple user interface: this will think this will take more time to develop also . industrial designer: yeah of course of course . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and um but for a standard one this is really easy . it 's a question of one month and so on s user interface: soon . project manager: to have a you s you speak about with voi voice control ? industrial designer: no no no no , project manager: standard button one . industrial designer: i say yeah standard uh standard remote control takes maybe uh one month to to do that . user interface: yeah . so the only time problem is the sp voice recognition . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: definitely . user interface: yeah . project manager: so do you have any idea of how long it would take to have voice recognition now ? user interface: ten years . industrial designer: i would say . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: i would say uh about eight months to have the first results . project manager: okay so i it 's a bit long yeah . industrial designer: yeah . i can um . project manager: one month for the standard one with button . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: even if we have a lcd display ? industrial designer: yeah even . i mean that this is really standard devices now . um eight . for uh speech recognition . project manager: okay yeah . okay so we can take this into account . so who think it would be good to go for uh like speech recognition ? user interface: but we do n't have time to market . project manager: yeah it will . industrial designer: and also how much uh i think user interface: i think we should contact management . industrial designer: during the kickoff meeting you say that we we should n't we should n't go up to twelve point five euro per unit marketing: project manager: euros . yeah , yeah . industrial designer: so how many units should we sell to have a user interface: well . uh project manager: well each unit is is sell uh twenty five euros . industrial designer: yeah but how many yeah . user interface: how muc how much do you get how much do you if you buy one million units h no , one hundred thousand units . marketing: user interface: eh chips . we 're gon na need chips right . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . how much will it cost for one hundred thousand ? industrial designer: usually this is less tha at two dollars per chip . user interface: okay . project manager: because we are user interface: so you have any idea for a powerful one that has uh good enough for do speech recognition . industrial designer: yeah , user interface: yeah ? okay . industrial designer: we can user interface: so . project manager: it seems that that we want to sell like four million units from the first meeting . user interface: no it does n't . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: okay . four million . project manager: okay . maybe we can uh we can look at the new requirement i receive from the management board and discus discuss all function we want to have . marketing: mm . industrial designer: um i just had a question uh do you want to continue with your presenta ? marketing: project manager: yeah i i will continue . industrial designer: is it project manager: well ask your question if you want . industrial designer: um you say that i do n't remember by heart but thirty per cent marketing: mm ? industrial designer: of the tested people say that 's it 's quite difficult to to to use the remote control . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: do they say that this is difficult but for the same reason or do they have other reason ? to to marketing: oh . industrial designer: maybe to keep in mind maybe to access to that menu you should do something like that . marketing: would j uh yeah w i i think they they say that it 's uh difficult to learn how to use it but i when you know how to use it , it 's it 's okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: okay . it 's not intuitive first . industrial designer: and marketing: but yeah . industrial designer: but yeah maybe and what about if we design a remote control which can be configure as you want ? you say that i want , i have six button user interface: mh-hmm . a a lot of people are uh if you have the lcd screen if you can do it completely the way you want because the buttons also look the way you want them industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . but , but also it seems that industrial designer: yeah . user interface: but it will be hard to configure i mean imagine i uh project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so it 's really something for the expert user . so industrial designer: okay . user interface: i mean there are markets and markets . i think the young people are th uh are uh marketing: user interface: christine here said uh you have a industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: uh it is yeah . so for our young people uh it will be cool , they can be able to use it . th maybe their parents will not but they will configure it . i guess . i do n't know if there is study about that . project manager: yeah . maybe it would be more complex to configure it to be simple than creating a simple product . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: and there are another thing is that if we make something that 's simple and easy to use that 's bas to use immediately that means that it will be exactly the same as everything else . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: all right ? industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: otherwise , if it 's different then of course everybody has somebody has to learn to use it first . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: but also we we see that that most people find it find remote controls too complex because they have too many buttons and they mainly use only channels and volume buttons . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: mm . project manager: so we may just uh make a very easy to use remote control with mainly those buttons user interface: yeah . project manager: and maybe also um some lightning stuff too because most people find also hard to to find the remote control . losed lose it etcetera . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: these these are these two points are the main frustrations so maybe if we design something very simple and easy to uh find when lost it will uh add uh a serious competitive advantage without making something too complex and too long to develop . marketing: mm . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so but le let us see first the new requirement . so we do n't have to so this this uh is uh is um in the this is in the same direction as we were speaking so we do n't have to make a very complex remote controls to access teletext and stuff like that user interface: but teletext is just one button . project manager: yeah but then you have to you have to define the buttons to surf amongst pages and stuff . user interface: you you just write the write the numbers . project manager: yeah . so well user interface: so will you add with the channel keys , right ? project manager: yeah . so anyway we do n't have to include this feature because it 's it 's not used any more by users , user interface: so . project manager: they prefer to s user interface: i am . i 'm sure that uh it do n't like but uh i do n't see just one button . project manager: yeah . i dunno . user interface: so . project manager: if i one button is still one more button . if if if we want to make it very simple we have to reduce number of buttons compared to th to our competitors . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: well anyway i have this point . we can discuss . also um so as as i told before uh it would be better if it 's only for the tv um because we want to be quick on on the market . and then also we have to make very uh uh clear that this uh this remote control is is part of of our products and show our corporate uh logo and and colours on the on the design as well so that uh they identify it as one of our product . so this is the the key point . marketing: project manager: so before uh finishing we can uh define uh what would be the characteristic of the o th of the control of the remote control and which button do we need which function do we want etcetera . user interface: capital . marketing: mm . project manager: so do you um so so from from the the marketing expert i think a key aspect is the easy to use aspect , it should be very simple and most button are never used marketing: mm . project manager: only ten per cent of the button are are used often so i think we have to do something very simple and i think we all agree on that point , no ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: well if it is going to be just a tv remote control it is going to be very simple . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah okay . so yeah the key point here is simple . maybe . so few buttons , channel , volume control and what el what function do you see in addition to that ? user interface: well if it 's going to be as simple as possible then just have the remote control , there is no other function that i can see project manager: yeah . user interface: really . project manager: maybe switch tv on and off user interface: uh industrial designer: project manager: user interface: no you want to keep television on so that the advertising can revenue can come back to us . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: or something . marketing: project manager: volume , maybe a mute button , and then on off button . industrial designer: mm . project manager: and that 's all ? industrial designer: uh i know that som you say that many people are doing plenty of a lot of zapping . project manager: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: industrial designer: i know tha i discovered that when i did a quick look , uh they do now som they do something which is quite nice now , user interface: it 's a memory , yeah . industrial designer: you have a button , you you press it , and this is uh the previous channel which has come back . project manager: okay . yeah this is cool . maybe we can include that also . previous previous channel button . so we have like channel button , the previous channel button , the volume button , plus a mute button , and uh just the the traditional on off button . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: and uh and of course the channel changing buttons . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . i i talk about that , yeah ? user interface: how should they how should we implement that ? because uh could be numerical only or could be also incremental . project manager: yeah . incremental definitely because zapping you you switch them . industrial designer: user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: let 's say that we can do something like that . this is uh incremental , but once you press it for a long time , you go five by five . project manager: we go faster ? industrial designer: to go fa to go faster . project manager: mm . user interface: mm . it 's an interesting idea , that if you press it for a long time it does something else , in general . so if you you have your ten buttons for the for the numeric the numerical buttons and you have instead of having just one memory industrial designer: yeah . marketing: user interface: you have if you press them for a long time no . does n't work does it . project manager: maybe we should have also a digit button user interface: maybe we should have a complete keyboard and just type console commands . project manager: industrial designer: project manager: yeah . user interface: change channel to eight . project manager: maybe we have also to have digits or only incremental . user interface: no . project manager: i dunno bec because if you have the user interface: well if it 's useful like if if you want to change between three channels for example then you h you can not you can not can not work with just memory being incremental . project manager: uh . yeah . because you have your previous channel button if you have incremental only it 's not uh it is n't worth it because the previous channel is eith either minus one or plus one . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: so i think we need also digits . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: maybe we we can make very obvious the channel and volume button button and smaller button down there with the the digits . user interface: yeah when you zap usually you will have to press the same button all the time project manager: yeah . user interface: and industrial designer: or we can do something like that . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we can design the remote control to have access . you know some remote control have uh protection marketing: user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and so you you y project manager: yeah . user interface: hey i just thought this thing industrial designer: you user interface: there is a i mean you know there is are some with a wheel like this . instead of having the up down buttons for uh you can have the wheel . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , a kind of joystick . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . maybe we can have a wheel for incremental . user interface: project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: so have a wheel for incremental , have the digits uh on the lower side that can be closed so as you say protected , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh yeah i think this is the basi user interface: on the lower side i think it you have to turn it . project manager: and do we do we have a user interface: no ? if we do that . industrial designer: or a or a ball , yeah , not a a wheel but a ball , and you say uh to project manager: no , a wheel is better . user interface: yeah . project manager: i would say the wheel is better . user interface: because of that project manager: what is the expert of uh industrial designer: yeah . user interface: the channels change one by one . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so you have to the user has to like to should feel the the the discrete sense a bit . industrial designer: yeah , the project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . that 's a good idea . user interface: yeah . project manager: well also we have to decide uh so it should be lightening in the dark i think because most people lost their remote control . industrial designer: 's quite it 's quite easy we do that w with back light on the on the wheel . project manager: okay . marketing: user interface: yeah . even if i l_e_d_ uh or a if if it 's the lcd feature uh industrial designer: a blue a blue l_e_d_ and we sell that um . project manager: yeah , user interface: whatever , yeah . project manager: and do we put an lcd display ? marketing: user interface: yeah . project manager: because it was important for young customers if you remember . user interface: i think it 's only put on if cou have multi function . if you do not multi function then there is no p point in having lcd . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: just increase the cost . project manager: okay . user interface: the user does not have an advantage really . project manager: so no lcd ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: hmm . project manager: and so no speech as well because it w it would delay too much the development process user interface: well if it 's going to delay yeah industrial designer: okay . user interface: but uh it will be cool . it would . because a user could say c_n_n_ for example and it would go c_n_n_ . mm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . that would be cool . but eight months is really long user interface: yeah . project manager: and maybe we can just uh industrial designer: ten years project manager: user interface: project manager: okay . so um i i will uh i will so i we will move to next meeting so in after the lunch break uh here are the individual uh action uh you are required to do industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: but you will be uh recalled to the actions by uh email i think but you can take notes if you if you want but well the instruction will be sent . so thank you for uh your suggestion industrial designer: okay . project manager: and i i will make a summary of that meeting that i will put in the shared folder you ca n't see industrial designer: okay . okay . marketing: project manager: and uh and then you will um you will be able to to see what has been uh has been said on on this meeting and and what has been decided . uh maybe for next meeting uh send me your presentation before by email so that we can see them uh altogether . that would be easier . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: what is the folder that you put yours in ? and did it it did work ? marketing: no . project manager: no it did not work . marketing: no no . project manager: she send it to me by email . user interface: ah yeah . mm . marketing: i dunno , i dunno it . user interface: okay . project manager: so maybe this is better , to send it by email . okay ? user interface: okay what is your email ? project manager: so yeah i i 'm it 's in the first uh email so i 'm participant one at ami user interface: at participant one . okay . project manager: uh where is that , it 's here . participant one at ami . okay . so see you after lunch break . user interface: well during lunch break actually . marketing: 'kay thank you . user interface: so next time we should have a fight . project manager: user interface: how about uh management or something . who happens to be your friend . project manager: user interface: { gap }

user interface agreed with marketing 's proposal of more ergonomic design and mentioned that a strange position of using computers might well end in tendonitis and hurt one 's wrist .

why did project manager decide to cancel the previous plan for a generic remote control when discussing the user requirement ? </s> project manager: industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: okay . project manager: okay everyone 's ready . user interface: hello . project manager: so we are here for uh for uh functional design . user interface: project manager: okay ? so we are here for the functional design meeting mm so first i will show the agenda so we will uh i will take notes during this meeting so i will try to summarise it and put that summary in the shared folder if you want to look at it afterwards user interface: project manager: so then uh each of you will uh lead a presentation on the task that has been required last time so user requirement specification , technical function design and working design . then i will uh present you some new project requirements i received from uh the management board . then we will take uh the decision on on the remote control uh needed functions and then i will assign you the task for the next part of the meeting . of the of the process . so uh who want to start the the presentation of what they did ? industrial designer: f do you want to start ? user interface: make a start yeah . project manager: you can start . user interface: so . project manager: user interface: cable , camera . project manager: you have uh powerpoint ? user interface: should be in my in their folder no ? project manager: ah yeah maybe there . okay . user interface: up . project manager: who are you ? user interface: um at three i think . project manager: user interface: no ? mm . project manager: ouch . and user interface: industrial designer: okay . project manager: we have a technical problem uh . user interface: do we think w s in the in the wrong folder maybe ? it is possible . project manager: you put it on industrial designer: no . user interface: it was somewhere in something like this . i do n't remember the name actually must be something like messenger ami or something . industrial designer: what do you have in short cut ? user interface: go up . industrial designer: participant two . user interface: yeah go up . project manager: yeah . user interface: again . no . go back . project manager: you have no user interface: uh maybe messenger ami . messenger . project manager: over . okay . user interface: no . there is nothing . project manager: there 's no we have a technical problem . user interface: let 's go and check . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: i 'll go and check . industrial designer: otherwise , could you just describe by hand ? user interface: okay . industrial designer: with the the whiteboard ? project manager: if you remember yeah user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: but that 's user interface: so uh . basically what we want here is a remote control right . project manager: yeah . user interface: so um the question well first of all what to control . so most people want to have a a remote for their hi-fi and tv and stuff like that . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and but other people want th also remotes for controlling uh and toys like robotic pets and little robots and stuff industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and other people also want to have remotes for controlling um whole house . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , so there 's a project i think called x_ house or something like that that does that , uh you can integrate your remote with uh computers stuff . so industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: there is one that is one thing . the other is the the finder feature yeah by whistling or whatever . uh if you have the finder feature then you can also have industrial designer: okay . user interface: uh at the same time as and general voice commands if you want yeah . so i think it should be a package in that case . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: uh so the user interface will consist of two parts . one is the voice command part and on one is the actual buttons part . uh and th the buttons part would be uh a set of buttons for choosing devices , a set of buttons for special navigation in space , industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: a set of buttons for linear access of medium and a set of buttons for random access . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah ? industrial designer: what do you mean by linear access then ? user interface: like a video tape goes forward , backwards , uh fast and stuff yeah . industrial designer: ah . project manager: okay so special navigation , linear access , random access user interface: um . project manager: and there 's a fourth one no ? user interface: mm ? project manager: so the better now for special navigation ? user interface: yeah . for special navigation for example you might have a tv in the menu and you going to change yeah ? project manager: okay . then linear access user interface: uh . project manager: then random access . user interface: mm . yeah and also parameter changing . project manager: ah yeah parameter okay . user interface: so if there are common parameters maybe we should put special buttons for that um project manager: okay . user interface: or maybe we could have everything uh generic but uh there are a lot of uh remotes on the market right now and basically this is most of the almost everybody has this stuff . project manager: okay . okay and and voice command did you uh user interface: voice command w we could specify anything . we could assign any button a command to any button , if we have enough processing power , project manager: okay . okay . user interface: i guess so . yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: so that 's uh that close your investigations ? user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: uh yeah i think so . project manager: okay . user interface: not so far . project manager: maybe we can have a look at the user requirements with marketing: yeah . um i dunno if you can open the project manager: i dunno if i can open it . maybe you can s marketing: uh m is not here . project manager: it 's marketing: uh in yeah okay . project manager: messenger no ? marketing: no . in document . mm computer yeah . project manager: in which folder ? user interface: where did you put it ? marketing: here . here . project manager: short-cut to ami shared folder ? user interface: mm . marketing: but it 's not um . project manager: maybe you can send it to me by email . just to participant one . at ami . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah , i can do that . project manager: i will try to show it to everyone , that would be more comfortable . marketing: okay . um . project manager: you send it ? marketing: it 's participant one ? project manager: yeah . uh this is this email . user interface: i 'm designing the user interface . marketing: okay . you can uh . project manager: okay . so maybe i can switch slides when you whenever you ask , marketing: yeah . project manager: that will be more convenient . so okay , functional requirements . marketing: okay so you can you can go . okay so in our usability lab we observed the remote control use among one hundred subjects project manager: mm . marketing: and the subjects also filled a questionnaire project manager: yeah . marketing: okay ? and here i have the results so you can see that um seventy five per cent of users find most remote controls ugly so we have to find something to make them more more nice , more kind . eighty per cents of users would spend more money when the remote control would look fancy . eighty hundred per cent of users would spend more money when the remote control would look project manager: user interface: marketing: oh to it 's not good . so okay . project manager: we can just keep doing that ? marketing: so it 's not in theory but i i can i can say yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: fifty f uh seventy five per cent of users say they s zap a lot . so mm we have to have a remote control uh very um out for that . uh the buttons have are to be um uh uh like you say resist resisting to to shocks . project manager: okay . marketing: um and fifty per cents of users say they only use uh ten per cents of but of the buttons in the in the remote control . industrial designer: project manager: okay . marketing: so all the buttons we we have to put are have to to have um a use a real use project manager: okay . marketing: and not only or project manager: okay , so fewer buttons maybe would be good ? marketing: yeah . f not many buttons , and uh and uh uh u useable buttons . project manager: okay . user interface: but what kind of remote controls did you look at ? marketing: sorry ? user interface: what kind of task was it ? it was a tv ? marketing: yeah . uh most for most is tv . project manager: yeah . yeah but in fact we it it seems that we are going to make a tv remote control according to new requirements i received from the management user interface: huh . project manager: bo i will present them in the following . user interface: uh-huh . ah ! good . marketing: 'kay you can go so . project manager: okay . marketing: so there are other frustrations expressed by users , so they said uh they lost uh often the remote control in in the room so they want to have a way to to project manager: yeah . to find it . marketing: to find it . project manager: yeah . marketing: um and um lot of the time they it takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control . project manager: yeah . marketing: so they want something s really very simple and uh easy to use . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . marketing: and uh remote controls are bad for project manager: what is her other side ? marketing: r_s_i_ um user interface: other side yeah , yo wa your wrist marketing: i dunno . project manager: user interface: it i can become painful you can have tendonditis . project manager: oh yeah ? user interface: yeah . project manager: i did not knew that . user interface: if you also up on a computer in a strange position . project manager: okay so you we have to make it uh more ergonomic yeah . user interface: ergonomic . but uh . marketing: yeah . user interface: have to say ha ha . project manager: it 's your job marketing: project manager: oh . marketing: uh . project manager: uh sorry got a message from microsoft . industrial designer: marketing: okay um before that i i have some some some thing uh to say before um project manager: yeah . yeah yeah . marketing: we know that uh the user use uh a lot their um remote control um to to change channel . project manager: yeah . marketing: um and um to to change uh volume selection of the project manager: okay . marketing: and uh and not uh a lot for setting for setting the the channels and uh thing things like that . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so it 's better to put uh uh uh something very easy to set and uh and project manager: yeah . this function should be very uh accessible . marketing: very accessible yes . project manager: yeah , okay . this is the main function okay . marketing: that 's right . so then we asked some questions to them project manager: yeah . marketing: and um we asked this question if they prefer an lcd screen or on their remultific function remotes control project manager: yeah . marketing: and if they mm pay more for speech recognition in remote control project manager: yeah . marketing: and you can go we have here the results of user interface: the first question . marketing: of the questions . so you know that um project manager: marketing: for the younger it 's very important project manager: to have lcd and voice . marketing: to have the s yes and speech recognition . and uh and the others is not so important but uh we know that uh uh people between fifteen and twenty five are people who watch a lot tv and uh who who wh can use a lot this uh . project manager: okay . marketing: so maybe we we can have a speech recognition in . project manager: yeah maybe this this is important . marketing: yeah . project manager: moreover th maybe those uh like those teenager customer could advice their parents to buy this equipment and so we can user interface: mm . project manager: we have to take care of that point of view i think or so . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . marketing: okay and if there is th the conclusion now . so as we say before , i think uh um a remote control lightening in the dark it 's it 's a good thing . project manager: okay . marketing: uh not to many mud buttons like we we said before , project manager: yeah . marketing: e easy to use uh a way to find it easily in the room and uh uh resistant to to shock and to to industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . marketing: an i s no , yeah . project manager: okay these are the user requi marketing: i dunno if you see something else important or industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: i 'm just thinking of some thing . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: um we want to have a no , i do n't know if this is a good idea . we want to have a a general remote control for everything . project manager: no no no . we w it seems that we no want to have a tv remote control . from the management board i receive an email . user interface: mm . industrial designer: okay . yeah . project manager: cos it would be costly uh and and also it it would take more time to develop to have a a general generic remote control . industrial designer: yeah . yeah yeah . yeah . user interface: mm i it 's not true i think . the the second claim that you put . industrial designer: no no . project manager: that it would be too long to develop . user interface: yeah . marketing: user interface: i think that should be the same . project manager: oh yeah . because i received that email from management board and they seems to tell that that if we want to be on the market as early as possible we should uh focus on tv more where it seems that the market is more important . so maybe it 's a good decision . i dunno . what 's your opinion ? user interface: i have uh i 've no idea i mean i should know a bit more about how fast we can uh design it . marketing: user interface: i do n't think project manager: industrial designer: marketing: user interface: uh yeah . industrial designer: finish tonight . project manager: user interface: yeah . okay . yeah . industrial designer: but basically yeah maybe i can continue with my presentation , it would be al you you project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but i think we have some technical problem or so . so i 'm just going to describe briefly what we do in the remote control . project manager: maybe you can go to the whiteboard if you have some drawings to do industrial designer: if fact project manager: i do n't know . industrial designer: yeah but marketing: mm . industrial designer: do i have oh yeah . project manager: industrial designer: now i have enough cables . user interface: like a you feel a bit like a dog with this stuff . project manager: industrial designer: okay so i 'm just going to describe in fact for for a remote control this is quite easy . we just have project manager: user interface: industrial designer: sorry , i 'm going project manager: okay . user interface: project manager: are you okay ? industrial designer: like that . i 'm just going to describe . basically we have a a battery a power supply here . after that we just have um user interface . let 's say that um something like that , which could be um a lcd let 's say or um an array of push button , something like that . push button or a lcd . after that we we feed that into um uh an electronic chip . so i say u_c_ and i feed that to uh l_e_d_ which is uh infrared um which is a an infrared um component . and so what we for for myself this for for us this is quite easy . project manager: u_c_ is the central unit ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay yeah . industrial designer: y it 's a it 's this just a chip which does all the um numerical project manager: computation . industrial designer: numerical computation according to your display . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and so for us uh this is quite easy . we just need to take to define what we want to do when the user interface um wants something and after that we just do the coding to s and send that to to to the not the to the television . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so for us this is quite easy . project manager: okay so this is quite easy . there is not that much constraints . industrial designer: yeah . um we just have to define the processing power that we need uh especially if we want to do some uh speech recognition , in that case that mean that we are going to use more for simple user interface: this will think this will take more time to develop also . industrial designer: yeah of course of course . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and um but for a standard one this is really easy . it 's a question of one month and so on s user interface: soon . project manager: to have a you s you speak about with voi voice control ? industrial designer: no no no no , project manager: standard button one . industrial designer: i say yeah standard uh standard remote control takes maybe uh one month to to do that . user interface: yeah . so the only time problem is the sp voice recognition . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: definitely . user interface: yeah . project manager: so do you have any idea of how long it would take to have voice recognition now ? user interface: ten years . industrial designer: i would say . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: i would say uh about eight months to have the first results . project manager: okay so i it 's a bit long yeah . industrial designer: yeah . i can um . project manager: one month for the standard one with button . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: even if we have a lcd display ? industrial designer: yeah even . i mean that this is really standard devices now . um eight . for uh speech recognition . project manager: okay yeah . okay so we can take this into account . so who think it would be good to go for uh like speech recognition ? user interface: but we do n't have time to market . project manager: yeah it will . industrial designer: and also how much uh i think user interface: i think we should contact management . industrial designer: during the kickoff meeting you say that we we should n't we should n't go up to twelve point five euro per unit marketing: project manager: euros . yeah , yeah . industrial designer: so how many units should we sell to have a user interface: well . uh project manager: well each unit is is sell uh twenty five euros . industrial designer: yeah but how many yeah . user interface: how muc how much do you get how much do you if you buy one million units h no , one hundred thousand units . marketing: user interface: eh chips . we 're gon na need chips right . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . how much will it cost for one hundred thousand ? industrial designer: usually this is less tha at two dollars per chip . user interface: okay . project manager: because we are user interface: so you have any idea for a powerful one that has uh good enough for do speech recognition . industrial designer: yeah , user interface: yeah ? okay . industrial designer: we can user interface: so . project manager: it seems that that we want to sell like four million units from the first meeting . user interface: no it does n't . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: okay . four million . project manager: okay . maybe we can uh we can look at the new requirement i receive from the management board and discus discuss all function we want to have . marketing: mm . industrial designer: um i just had a question uh do you want to continue with your presenta ? marketing: project manager: yeah i i will continue . industrial designer: is it project manager: well ask your question if you want . industrial designer: um you say that i do n't remember by heart but thirty per cent marketing: mm ? industrial designer: of the tested people say that 's it 's quite difficult to to to use the remote control . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: do they say that this is difficult but for the same reason or do they have other reason ? to to marketing: oh . industrial designer: maybe to keep in mind maybe to access to that menu you should do something like that . marketing: would j uh yeah w i i think they they say that it 's uh difficult to learn how to use it but i when you know how to use it , it 's it 's okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: okay . it 's not intuitive first . industrial designer: and marketing: but yeah . industrial designer: but yeah maybe and what about if we design a remote control which can be configure as you want ? you say that i want , i have six button user interface: mh-hmm . a a lot of people are uh if you have the lcd screen if you can do it completely the way you want because the buttons also look the way you want them industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . but , but also it seems that industrial designer: yeah . user interface: but it will be hard to configure i mean imagine i uh project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so it 's really something for the expert user . so industrial designer: okay . user interface: i mean there are markets and markets . i think the young people are th uh are uh marketing: user interface: christine here said uh you have a industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: uh it is yeah . so for our young people uh it will be cool , they can be able to use it . th maybe their parents will not but they will configure it . i guess . i do n't know if there is study about that . project manager: yeah . maybe it would be more complex to configure it to be simple than creating a simple product . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: and there are another thing is that if we make something that 's simple and easy to use that 's bas to use immediately that means that it will be exactly the same as everything else . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: all right ? industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: otherwise , if it 's different then of course everybody has somebody has to learn to use it first . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: but also we we see that that most people find it find remote controls too complex because they have too many buttons and they mainly use only channels and volume buttons . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: mm . project manager: so we may just uh make a very easy to use remote control with mainly those buttons user interface: yeah . project manager: and maybe also um some lightning stuff too because most people find also hard to to find the remote control . losed lose it etcetera . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: these these are these two points are the main frustrations so maybe if we design something very simple and easy to uh find when lost it will uh add uh a serious competitive advantage without making something too complex and too long to develop . marketing: mm . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so but le let us see first the new requirement . so we do n't have to so this this uh is uh is um in the this is in the same direction as we were speaking so we do n't have to make a very complex remote controls to access teletext and stuff like that user interface: but teletext is just one button . project manager: yeah but then you have to you have to define the buttons to surf amongst pages and stuff . user interface: you you just write the write the numbers . project manager: yeah . so well user interface: so will you add with the channel keys , right ? project manager: yeah . so anyway we do n't have to include this feature because it 's it 's not used any more by users , user interface: so . project manager: they prefer to s user interface: i am . i 'm sure that uh it do n't like but uh i do n't see just one button . project manager: yeah . i dunno . user interface: so . project manager: if i one button is still one more button . if if if we want to make it very simple we have to reduce number of buttons compared to th to our competitors . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: well anyway i have this point . we can discuss . also um so as as i told before uh it would be better if it 's only for the tv um because we want to be quick on on the market . and then also we have to make very uh uh clear that this uh this remote control is is part of of our products and show our corporate uh logo and and colours on the on the design as well so that uh they identify it as one of our product . so this is the the key point . marketing: project manager: so before uh finishing we can uh define uh what would be the characteristic of the o th of the control of the remote control and which button do we need which function do we want etcetera . user interface: capital . marketing: mm . project manager: so do you um so so from from the the marketing expert i think a key aspect is the easy to use aspect , it should be very simple and most button are never used marketing: mm . project manager: only ten per cent of the button are are used often so i think we have to do something very simple and i think we all agree on that point , no ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: well if it is going to be just a tv remote control it is going to be very simple . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah okay . so yeah the key point here is simple . maybe . so few buttons , channel , volume control and what el what function do you see in addition to that ? user interface: well if it 's going to be as simple as possible then just have the remote control , there is no other function that i can see project manager: yeah . user interface: really . project manager: maybe switch tv on and off user interface: uh industrial designer: project manager: user interface: no you want to keep television on so that the advertising can revenue can come back to us . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: or something . marketing: project manager: volume , maybe a mute button , and then on off button . industrial designer: mm . project manager: and that 's all ? industrial designer: uh i know that som you say that many people are doing plenty of a lot of zapping . project manager: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: industrial designer: i know tha i discovered that when i did a quick look , uh they do now som they do something which is quite nice now , user interface: it 's a memory , yeah . industrial designer: you have a button , you you press it , and this is uh the previous channel which has come back . project manager: okay . yeah this is cool . maybe we can include that also . previous previous channel button . so we have like channel button , the previous channel button , the volume button , plus a mute button , and uh just the the traditional on off button . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: and uh and of course the channel changing buttons . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . i i talk about that , yeah ? user interface: how should they how should we implement that ? because uh could be numerical only or could be also incremental . project manager: yeah . incremental definitely because zapping you you switch them . industrial designer: user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: let 's say that we can do something like that . this is uh incremental , but once you press it for a long time , you go five by five . project manager: we go faster ? industrial designer: to go fa to go faster . project manager: mm . user interface: mm . it 's an interesting idea , that if you press it for a long time it does something else , in general . so if you you have your ten buttons for the for the numeric the numerical buttons and you have instead of having just one memory industrial designer: yeah . marketing: user interface: you have if you press them for a long time no . does n't work does it . project manager: maybe we should have also a digit button user interface: maybe we should have a complete keyboard and just type console commands . project manager: industrial designer: project manager: yeah . user interface: change channel to eight . project manager: maybe we have also to have digits or only incremental . user interface: no . project manager: i dunno bec because if you have the user interface: well if it 's useful like if if you want to change between three channels for example then you h you can not you can not can not work with just memory being incremental . project manager: uh . yeah . because you have your previous channel button if you have incremental only it 's not uh it is n't worth it because the previous channel is eith either minus one or plus one . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: so i think we need also digits . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: maybe we we can make very obvious the channel and volume button button and smaller button down there with the the digits . user interface: yeah when you zap usually you will have to press the same button all the time project manager: yeah . user interface: and industrial designer: or we can do something like that . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we can design the remote control to have access . you know some remote control have uh protection marketing: user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and so you you y project manager: yeah . user interface: hey i just thought this thing industrial designer: you user interface: there is a i mean you know there is are some with a wheel like this . instead of having the up down buttons for uh you can have the wheel . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , a kind of joystick . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . maybe we can have a wheel for incremental . user interface: project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: so have a wheel for incremental , have the digits uh on the lower side that can be closed so as you say protected , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh yeah i think this is the basi user interface: on the lower side i think it you have to turn it . project manager: and do we do we have a user interface: no ? if we do that . industrial designer: or a or a ball , yeah , not a a wheel but a ball , and you say uh to project manager: no , a wheel is better . user interface: yeah . project manager: i would say the wheel is better . user interface: because of that project manager: what is the expert of uh industrial designer: yeah . user interface: the channels change one by one . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so you have to the user has to like to should feel the the the discrete sense a bit . industrial designer: yeah , the project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . that 's a good idea . user interface: yeah . project manager: well also we have to decide uh so it should be lightening in the dark i think because most people lost their remote control . industrial designer: 's quite it 's quite easy we do that w with back light on the on the wheel . project manager: okay . marketing: user interface: yeah . even if i l_e_d_ uh or a if if it 's the lcd feature uh industrial designer: a blue a blue l_e_d_ and we sell that um . project manager: yeah , user interface: whatever , yeah . project manager: and do we put an lcd display ? marketing: user interface: yeah . project manager: because it was important for young customers if you remember . user interface: i think it 's only put on if cou have multi function . if you do not multi function then there is no p point in having lcd . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: just increase the cost . project manager: okay . user interface: the user does not have an advantage really . project manager: so no lcd ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: hmm . project manager: and so no speech as well because it w it would delay too much the development process user interface: well if it 's going to delay yeah industrial designer: okay . user interface: but uh it will be cool . it would . because a user could say c_n_n_ for example and it would go c_n_n_ . mm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . that would be cool . but eight months is really long user interface: yeah . project manager: and maybe we can just uh industrial designer: ten years project manager: user interface: project manager: okay . so um i i will uh i will so i we will move to next meeting so in after the lunch break uh here are the individual uh action uh you are required to do industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: but you will be uh recalled to the actions by uh email i think but you can take notes if you if you want but well the instruction will be sent . so thank you for uh your suggestion industrial designer: okay . project manager: and i i will make a summary of that meeting that i will put in the shared folder you ca n't see industrial designer: okay . okay . marketing: project manager: and uh and then you will um you will be able to to see what has been uh has been said on on this meeting and and what has been decided . uh maybe for next meeting uh send me your presentation before by email so that we can see them uh altogether . that would be easier . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: what is the folder that you put yours in ? and did it it did work ? marketing: no . project manager: no it did not work . marketing: no no . project manager: she send it to me by email . user interface: ah yeah . mm . marketing: i dunno , i dunno it . user interface: okay . project manager: so maybe this is better , to send it by email . okay ? user interface: okay what is your email ? project manager: so yeah i i 'm it 's in the first uh email so i 'm participant one at ami user interface: at participant one . okay . project manager: uh where is that , it 's here . participant one at ami . okay . so see you after lunch break . user interface: well during lunch break actually . marketing: 'kay thank you . user interface: so next time we should have a fight . project manager: user interface: how about uh management or something . who happens to be your friend . project manager: user interface: { gap }

considering the message from the management board , project manager emphasized the marketing competitiveness of remote controls over the costly and time-consuming need for making a generic remote control for everything . therefore , the plan for a generic one was cancelled .

summarize the discussion about industrial designer 's presentation on technical design . </s> project manager: industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: okay . project manager: okay everyone 's ready . user interface: hello . project manager: so we are here for uh for uh functional design . user interface: project manager: okay ? so we are here for the functional design meeting mm so first i will show the agenda so we will uh i will take notes during this meeting so i will try to summarise it and put that summary in the shared folder if you want to look at it afterwards user interface: project manager: so then uh each of you will uh lead a presentation on the task that has been required last time so user requirement specification , technical function design and working design . then i will uh present you some new project requirements i received from uh the management board . then we will take uh the decision on on the remote control uh needed functions and then i will assign you the task for the next part of the meeting . of the of the process . so uh who want to start the the presentation of what they did ? industrial designer: f do you want to start ? user interface: make a start yeah . project manager: you can start . user interface: so . project manager: user interface: cable , camera . project manager: you have uh powerpoint ? user interface: should be in my in their folder no ? project manager: ah yeah maybe there . okay . user interface: up . project manager: who are you ? user interface: um at three i think . project manager: user interface: no ? mm . project manager: ouch . and user interface: industrial designer: okay . project manager: we have a technical problem uh . user interface: do we think w s in the in the wrong folder maybe ? it is possible . project manager: you put it on industrial designer: no . user interface: it was somewhere in something like this . i do n't remember the name actually must be something like messenger ami or something . industrial designer: what do you have in short cut ? user interface: go up . industrial designer: participant two . user interface: yeah go up . project manager: yeah . user interface: again . no . go back . project manager: you have no user interface: uh maybe messenger ami . messenger . project manager: over . okay . user interface: no . there is nothing . project manager: there 's no we have a technical problem . user interface: let 's go and check . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: i 'll go and check . industrial designer: otherwise , could you just describe by hand ? user interface: okay . industrial designer: with the the whiteboard ? project manager: if you remember yeah user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: but that 's user interface: so uh . basically what we want here is a remote control right . project manager: yeah . user interface: so um the question well first of all what to control . so most people want to have a a remote for their hi-fi and tv and stuff like that . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and but other people want th also remotes for controlling uh and toys like robotic pets and little robots and stuff industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and other people also want to have remotes for controlling um whole house . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , so there 's a project i think called x_ house or something like that that does that , uh you can integrate your remote with uh computers stuff . so industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: there is one that is one thing . the other is the the finder feature yeah by whistling or whatever . uh if you have the finder feature then you can also have industrial designer: okay . user interface: uh at the same time as and general voice commands if you want yeah . so i think it should be a package in that case . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: uh so the user interface will consist of two parts . one is the voice command part and on one is the actual buttons part . uh and th the buttons part would be uh a set of buttons for choosing devices , a set of buttons for special navigation in space , industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: a set of buttons for linear access of medium and a set of buttons for random access . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah ? industrial designer: what do you mean by linear access then ? user interface: like a video tape goes forward , backwards , uh fast and stuff yeah . industrial designer: ah . project manager: okay so special navigation , linear access , random access user interface: um . project manager: and there 's a fourth one no ? user interface: mm ? project manager: so the better now for special navigation ? user interface: yeah . for special navigation for example you might have a tv in the menu and you going to change yeah ? project manager: okay . then linear access user interface: uh . project manager: then random access . user interface: mm . yeah and also parameter changing . project manager: ah yeah parameter okay . user interface: so if there are common parameters maybe we should put special buttons for that um project manager: okay . user interface: or maybe we could have everything uh generic but uh there are a lot of uh remotes on the market right now and basically this is most of the almost everybody has this stuff . project manager: okay . okay and and voice command did you uh user interface: voice command w we could specify anything . we could assign any button a command to any button , if we have enough processing power , project manager: okay . okay . user interface: i guess so . yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: so that 's uh that close your investigations ? user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: uh yeah i think so . project manager: okay . user interface: not so far . project manager: maybe we can have a look at the user requirements with marketing: yeah . um i dunno if you can open the project manager: i dunno if i can open it . maybe you can s marketing: uh m is not here . project manager: it 's marketing: uh in yeah okay . project manager: messenger no ? marketing: no . in document . mm computer yeah . project manager: in which folder ? user interface: where did you put it ? marketing: here . here . project manager: short-cut to ami shared folder ? user interface: mm . marketing: but it 's not um . project manager: maybe you can send it to me by email . just to participant one . at ami . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah , i can do that . project manager: i will try to show it to everyone , that would be more comfortable . marketing: okay . um . project manager: you send it ? marketing: it 's participant one ? project manager: yeah . uh this is this email . user interface: i 'm designing the user interface . marketing: okay . you can uh . project manager: okay . so maybe i can switch slides when you whenever you ask , marketing: yeah . project manager: that will be more convenient . so okay , functional requirements . marketing: okay so you can you can go . okay so in our usability lab we observed the remote control use among one hundred subjects project manager: mm . marketing: and the subjects also filled a questionnaire project manager: yeah . marketing: okay ? and here i have the results so you can see that um seventy five per cent of users find most remote controls ugly so we have to find something to make them more more nice , more kind . eighty per cents of users would spend more money when the remote control would look fancy . eighty hundred per cent of users would spend more money when the remote control would look project manager: user interface: marketing: oh to it 's not good . so okay . project manager: we can just keep doing that ? marketing: so it 's not in theory but i i can i can say yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: fifty f uh seventy five per cent of users say they s zap a lot . so mm we have to have a remote control uh very um out for that . uh the buttons have are to be um uh uh like you say resist resisting to to shocks . project manager: okay . marketing: um and fifty per cents of users say they only use uh ten per cents of but of the buttons in the in the remote control . industrial designer: project manager: okay . marketing: so all the buttons we we have to put are have to to have um a use a real use project manager: okay . marketing: and not only or project manager: okay , so fewer buttons maybe would be good ? marketing: yeah . f not many buttons , and uh and uh uh u useable buttons . project manager: okay . user interface: but what kind of remote controls did you look at ? marketing: sorry ? user interface: what kind of task was it ? it was a tv ? marketing: yeah . uh most for most is tv . project manager: yeah . yeah but in fact we it it seems that we are going to make a tv remote control according to new requirements i received from the management user interface: huh . project manager: bo i will present them in the following . user interface: uh-huh . ah ! good . marketing: 'kay you can go so . project manager: okay . marketing: so there are other frustrations expressed by users , so they said uh they lost uh often the remote control in in the room so they want to have a way to to project manager: yeah . to find it . marketing: to find it . project manager: yeah . marketing: um and um lot of the time they it takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control . project manager: yeah . marketing: so they want something s really very simple and uh easy to use . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . marketing: and uh remote controls are bad for project manager: what is her other side ? marketing: r_s_i_ um user interface: other side yeah , yo wa your wrist marketing: i dunno . project manager: user interface: it i can become painful you can have tendonditis . project manager: oh yeah ? user interface: yeah . project manager: i did not knew that . user interface: if you also up on a computer in a strange position . project manager: okay so you we have to make it uh more ergonomic yeah . user interface: ergonomic . but uh . marketing: yeah . user interface: have to say ha ha . project manager: it 's your job marketing: project manager: oh . marketing: uh . project manager: uh sorry got a message from microsoft . industrial designer: marketing: okay um before that i i have some some some thing uh to say before um project manager: yeah . yeah yeah . marketing: we know that uh the user use uh a lot their um remote control um to to change channel . project manager: yeah . marketing: um and um to to change uh volume selection of the project manager: okay . marketing: and uh and not uh a lot for setting for setting the the channels and uh thing things like that . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so it 's better to put uh uh uh something very easy to set and uh and project manager: yeah . this function should be very uh accessible . marketing: very accessible yes . project manager: yeah , okay . this is the main function okay . marketing: that 's right . so then we asked some questions to them project manager: yeah . marketing: and um we asked this question if they prefer an lcd screen or on their remultific function remotes control project manager: yeah . marketing: and if they mm pay more for speech recognition in remote control project manager: yeah . marketing: and you can go we have here the results of user interface: the first question . marketing: of the questions . so you know that um project manager: marketing: for the younger it 's very important project manager: to have lcd and voice . marketing: to have the s yes and speech recognition . and uh and the others is not so important but uh we know that uh uh people between fifteen and twenty five are people who watch a lot tv and uh who who wh can use a lot this uh . project manager: okay . marketing: so maybe we we can have a speech recognition in . project manager: yeah maybe this this is important . marketing: yeah . project manager: moreover th maybe those uh like those teenager customer could advice their parents to buy this equipment and so we can user interface: mm . project manager: we have to take care of that point of view i think or so . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . marketing: okay and if there is th the conclusion now . so as we say before , i think uh um a remote control lightening in the dark it 's it 's a good thing . project manager: okay . marketing: uh not to many mud buttons like we we said before , project manager: yeah . marketing: e easy to use uh a way to find it easily in the room and uh uh resistant to to shock and to to industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . marketing: an i s no , yeah . project manager: okay these are the user requi marketing: i dunno if you see something else important or industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: i 'm just thinking of some thing . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: um we want to have a no , i do n't know if this is a good idea . we want to have a a general remote control for everything . project manager: no no no . we w it seems that we no want to have a tv remote control . from the management board i receive an email . user interface: mm . industrial designer: okay . yeah . project manager: cos it would be costly uh and and also it it would take more time to develop to have a a general generic remote control . industrial designer: yeah . yeah yeah . yeah . user interface: mm i it 's not true i think . the the second claim that you put . industrial designer: no no . project manager: that it would be too long to develop . user interface: yeah . marketing: user interface: i think that should be the same . project manager: oh yeah . because i received that email from management board and they seems to tell that that if we want to be on the market as early as possible we should uh focus on tv more where it seems that the market is more important . so maybe it 's a good decision . i dunno . what 's your opinion ? user interface: i have uh i 've no idea i mean i should know a bit more about how fast we can uh design it . marketing: user interface: i do n't think project manager: industrial designer: marketing: user interface: uh yeah . industrial designer: finish tonight . project manager: user interface: yeah . okay . yeah . industrial designer: but basically yeah maybe i can continue with my presentation , it would be al you you project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but i think we have some technical problem or so . so i 'm just going to describe briefly what we do in the remote control . project manager: maybe you can go to the whiteboard if you have some drawings to do industrial designer: if fact project manager: i do n't know . industrial designer: yeah but marketing: mm . industrial designer: do i have oh yeah . project manager: industrial designer: now i have enough cables . user interface: like a you feel a bit like a dog with this stuff . project manager: industrial designer: okay so i 'm just going to describe in fact for for a remote control this is quite easy . we just have project manager: user interface: industrial designer: sorry , i 'm going project manager: okay . user interface: project manager: are you okay ? industrial designer: like that . i 'm just going to describe . basically we have a a battery a power supply here . after that we just have um user interface . let 's say that um something like that , which could be um a lcd let 's say or um an array of push button , something like that . push button or a lcd . after that we we feed that into um uh an electronic chip . so i say u_c_ and i feed that to uh l_e_d_ which is uh infrared um which is a an infrared um component . and so what we for for myself this for for us this is quite easy . project manager: u_c_ is the central unit ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay yeah . industrial designer: y it 's a it 's this just a chip which does all the um numerical project manager: computation . industrial designer: numerical computation according to your display . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and so for us uh this is quite easy . we just need to take to define what we want to do when the user interface um wants something and after that we just do the coding to s and send that to to to the not the to the television . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so for us this is quite easy . project manager: okay so this is quite easy . there is not that much constraints . industrial designer: yeah . um we just have to define the processing power that we need uh especially if we want to do some uh speech recognition , in that case that mean that we are going to use more for simple user interface: this will think this will take more time to develop also . industrial designer: yeah of course of course . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and um but for a standard one this is really easy . it 's a question of one month and so on s user interface: soon . project manager: to have a you s you speak about with voi voice control ? industrial designer: no no no no , project manager: standard button one . industrial designer: i say yeah standard uh standard remote control takes maybe uh one month to to do that . user interface: yeah . so the only time problem is the sp voice recognition . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: definitely . user interface: yeah . project manager: so do you have any idea of how long it would take to have voice recognition now ? user interface: ten years . industrial designer: i would say . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: i would say uh about eight months to have the first results . project manager: okay so i it 's a bit long yeah . industrial designer: yeah . i can um . project manager: one month for the standard one with button . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: even if we have a lcd display ? industrial designer: yeah even . i mean that this is really standard devices now . um eight . for uh speech recognition . project manager: okay yeah . okay so we can take this into account . so who think it would be good to go for uh like speech recognition ? user interface: but we do n't have time to market . project manager: yeah it will . industrial designer: and also how much uh i think user interface: i think we should contact management . industrial designer: during the kickoff meeting you say that we we should n't we should n't go up to twelve point five euro per unit marketing: project manager: euros . yeah , yeah . industrial designer: so how many units should we sell to have a user interface: well . uh project manager: well each unit is is sell uh twenty five euros . industrial designer: yeah but how many yeah . user interface: how muc how much do you get how much do you if you buy one million units h no , one hundred thousand units . marketing: user interface: eh chips . we 're gon na need chips right . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . how much will it cost for one hundred thousand ? industrial designer: usually this is less tha at two dollars per chip . user interface: okay . project manager: because we are user interface: so you have any idea for a powerful one that has uh good enough for do speech recognition . industrial designer: yeah , user interface: yeah ? okay . industrial designer: we can user interface: so . project manager: it seems that that we want to sell like four million units from the first meeting . user interface: no it does n't . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: okay . four million . project manager: okay . maybe we can uh we can look at the new requirement i receive from the management board and discus discuss all function we want to have . marketing: mm . industrial designer: um i just had a question uh do you want to continue with your presenta ? marketing: project manager: yeah i i will continue . industrial designer: is it project manager: well ask your question if you want . industrial designer: um you say that i do n't remember by heart but thirty per cent marketing: mm ? industrial designer: of the tested people say that 's it 's quite difficult to to to use the remote control . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: do they say that this is difficult but for the same reason or do they have other reason ? to to marketing: oh . industrial designer: maybe to keep in mind maybe to access to that menu you should do something like that . marketing: would j uh yeah w i i think they they say that it 's uh difficult to learn how to use it but i when you know how to use it , it 's it 's okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: okay . it 's not intuitive first . industrial designer: and marketing: but yeah . industrial designer: but yeah maybe and what about if we design a remote control which can be configure as you want ? you say that i want , i have six button user interface: mh-hmm . a a lot of people are uh if you have the lcd screen if you can do it completely the way you want because the buttons also look the way you want them industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . but , but also it seems that industrial designer: yeah . user interface: but it will be hard to configure i mean imagine i uh project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so it 's really something for the expert user . so industrial designer: okay . user interface: i mean there are markets and markets . i think the young people are th uh are uh marketing: user interface: christine here said uh you have a industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: uh it is yeah . so for our young people uh it will be cool , they can be able to use it . th maybe their parents will not but they will configure it . i guess . i do n't know if there is study about that . project manager: yeah . maybe it would be more complex to configure it to be simple than creating a simple product . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: and there are another thing is that if we make something that 's simple and easy to use that 's bas to use immediately that means that it will be exactly the same as everything else . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: all right ? industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: otherwise , if it 's different then of course everybody has somebody has to learn to use it first . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: but also we we see that that most people find it find remote controls too complex because they have too many buttons and they mainly use only channels and volume buttons . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: mm . project manager: so we may just uh make a very easy to use remote control with mainly those buttons user interface: yeah . project manager: and maybe also um some lightning stuff too because most people find also hard to to find the remote control . losed lose it etcetera . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: these these are these two points are the main frustrations so maybe if we design something very simple and easy to uh find when lost it will uh add uh a serious competitive advantage without making something too complex and too long to develop . marketing: mm . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so but le let us see first the new requirement . so we do n't have to so this this uh is uh is um in the this is in the same direction as we were speaking so we do n't have to make a very complex remote controls to access teletext and stuff like that user interface: but teletext is just one button . project manager: yeah but then you have to you have to define the buttons to surf amongst pages and stuff . user interface: you you just write the write the numbers . project manager: yeah . so well user interface: so will you add with the channel keys , right ? project manager: yeah . so anyway we do n't have to include this feature because it 's it 's not used any more by users , user interface: so . project manager: they prefer to s user interface: i am . i 'm sure that uh it do n't like but uh i do n't see just one button . project manager: yeah . i dunno . user interface: so . project manager: if i one button is still one more button . if if if we want to make it very simple we have to reduce number of buttons compared to th to our competitors . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: well anyway i have this point . we can discuss . also um so as as i told before uh it would be better if it 's only for the tv um because we want to be quick on on the market . and then also we have to make very uh uh clear that this uh this remote control is is part of of our products and show our corporate uh logo and and colours on the on the design as well so that uh they identify it as one of our product . so this is the the key point . marketing: project manager: so before uh finishing we can uh define uh what would be the characteristic of the o th of the control of the remote control and which button do we need which function do we want etcetera . user interface: capital . marketing: mm . project manager: so do you um so so from from the the marketing expert i think a key aspect is the easy to use aspect , it should be very simple and most button are never used marketing: mm . project manager: only ten per cent of the button are are used often so i think we have to do something very simple and i think we all agree on that point , no ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: well if it is going to be just a tv remote control it is going to be very simple . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah okay . so yeah the key point here is simple . maybe . so few buttons , channel , volume control and what el what function do you see in addition to that ? user interface: well if it 's going to be as simple as possible then just have the remote control , there is no other function that i can see project manager: yeah . user interface: really . project manager: maybe switch tv on and off user interface: uh industrial designer: project manager: user interface: no you want to keep television on so that the advertising can revenue can come back to us . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: or something . marketing: project manager: volume , maybe a mute button , and then on off button . industrial designer: mm . project manager: and that 's all ? industrial designer: uh i know that som you say that many people are doing plenty of a lot of zapping . project manager: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: industrial designer: i know tha i discovered that when i did a quick look , uh they do now som they do something which is quite nice now , user interface: it 's a memory , yeah . industrial designer: you have a button , you you press it , and this is uh the previous channel which has come back . project manager: okay . yeah this is cool . maybe we can include that also . previous previous channel button . so we have like channel button , the previous channel button , the volume button , plus a mute button , and uh just the the traditional on off button . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: and uh and of course the channel changing buttons . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . i i talk about that , yeah ? user interface: how should they how should we implement that ? because uh could be numerical only or could be also incremental . project manager: yeah . incremental definitely because zapping you you switch them . industrial designer: user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: let 's say that we can do something like that . this is uh incremental , but once you press it for a long time , you go five by five . project manager: we go faster ? industrial designer: to go fa to go faster . project manager: mm . user interface: mm . it 's an interesting idea , that if you press it for a long time it does something else , in general . so if you you have your ten buttons for the for the numeric the numerical buttons and you have instead of having just one memory industrial designer: yeah . marketing: user interface: you have if you press them for a long time no . does n't work does it . project manager: maybe we should have also a digit button user interface: maybe we should have a complete keyboard and just type console commands . project manager: industrial designer: project manager: yeah . user interface: change channel to eight . project manager: maybe we have also to have digits or only incremental . user interface: no . project manager: i dunno bec because if you have the user interface: well if it 's useful like if if you want to change between three channels for example then you h you can not you can not can not work with just memory being incremental . project manager: uh . yeah . because you have your previous channel button if you have incremental only it 's not uh it is n't worth it because the previous channel is eith either minus one or plus one . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: so i think we need also digits . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: maybe we we can make very obvious the channel and volume button button and smaller button down there with the the digits . user interface: yeah when you zap usually you will have to press the same button all the time project manager: yeah . user interface: and industrial designer: or we can do something like that . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we can design the remote control to have access . you know some remote control have uh protection marketing: user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and so you you y project manager: yeah . user interface: hey i just thought this thing industrial designer: you user interface: there is a i mean you know there is are some with a wheel like this . instead of having the up down buttons for uh you can have the wheel . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , a kind of joystick . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . maybe we can have a wheel for incremental . user interface: project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: so have a wheel for incremental , have the digits uh on the lower side that can be closed so as you say protected , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh yeah i think this is the basi user interface: on the lower side i think it you have to turn it . project manager: and do we do we have a user interface: no ? if we do that . industrial designer: or a or a ball , yeah , not a a wheel but a ball , and you say uh to project manager: no , a wheel is better . user interface: yeah . project manager: i would say the wheel is better . user interface: because of that project manager: what is the expert of uh industrial designer: yeah . user interface: the channels change one by one . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so you have to the user has to like to should feel the the the discrete sense a bit . industrial designer: yeah , the project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . that 's a good idea . user interface: yeah . project manager: well also we have to decide uh so it should be lightening in the dark i think because most people lost their remote control . industrial designer: 's quite it 's quite easy we do that w with back light on the on the wheel . project manager: okay . marketing: user interface: yeah . even if i l_e_d_ uh or a if if it 's the lcd feature uh industrial designer: a blue a blue l_e_d_ and we sell that um . project manager: yeah , user interface: whatever , yeah . project manager: and do we put an lcd display ? marketing: user interface: yeah . project manager: because it was important for young customers if you remember . user interface: i think it 's only put on if cou have multi function . if you do not multi function then there is no p point in having lcd . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: just increase the cost . project manager: okay . user interface: the user does not have an advantage really . project manager: so no lcd ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: hmm . project manager: and so no speech as well because it w it would delay too much the development process user interface: well if it 's going to delay yeah industrial designer: okay . user interface: but uh it will be cool . it would . because a user could say c_n_n_ for example and it would go c_n_n_ . mm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . that would be cool . but eight months is really long user interface: yeah . project manager: and maybe we can just uh industrial designer: ten years project manager: user interface: project manager: okay . so um i i will uh i will so i we will move to next meeting so in after the lunch break uh here are the individual uh action uh you are required to do industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: but you will be uh recalled to the actions by uh email i think but you can take notes if you if you want but well the instruction will be sent . so thank you for uh your suggestion industrial designer: okay . project manager: and i i will make a summary of that meeting that i will put in the shared folder you ca n't see industrial designer: okay . okay . marketing: project manager: and uh and then you will um you will be able to to see what has been uh has been said on on this meeting and and what has been decided . uh maybe for next meeting uh send me your presentation before by email so that we can see them uh altogether . that would be easier . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: what is the folder that you put yours in ? and did it it did work ? marketing: no . project manager: no it did not work . marketing: no no . project manager: she send it to me by email . user interface: ah yeah . mm . marketing: i dunno , i dunno it . user interface: okay . project manager: so maybe this is better , to send it by email . okay ? user interface: okay what is your email ? project manager: so yeah i i 'm it 's in the first uh email so i 'm participant one at ami user interface: at participant one . okay . project manager: uh where is that , it 's here . participant one at ami . okay . so see you after lunch break . user interface: well during lunch break actually . marketing: 'kay thank you . user interface: so next time we should have a fight . project manager: user interface: how about uh management or something . who happens to be your friend . project manager: user interface: { gap }

industrial designer first briefly described the components of the remote control , including a battery power supply , a user interface , an array of push buttons or a lcd , an electronic chip , an infrared component , and a uc as the central unit . subsequent to the brief description , industrial designer pointed out the eight-month-long time problem for designing speech recognition , while the designing time for the standard one button was only one month . moreover , industrial designer proposed the idea of configuring remote controls for the expert users and could better fit the market .

what did user interface think of the easy-to-learn design of remote controls when discussing the technical design ? </s> project manager: industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: okay . project manager: okay everyone 's ready . user interface: hello . project manager: so we are here for uh for uh functional design . user interface: project manager: okay ? so we are here for the functional design meeting mm so first i will show the agenda so we will uh i will take notes during this meeting so i will try to summarise it and put that summary in the shared folder if you want to look at it afterwards user interface: project manager: so then uh each of you will uh lead a presentation on the task that has been required last time so user requirement specification , technical function design and working design . then i will uh present you some new project requirements i received from uh the management board . then we will take uh the decision on on the remote control uh needed functions and then i will assign you the task for the next part of the meeting . of the of the process . so uh who want to start the the presentation of what they did ? industrial designer: f do you want to start ? user interface: make a start yeah . project manager: you can start . user interface: so . project manager: user interface: cable , camera . project manager: you have uh powerpoint ? user interface: should be in my in their folder no ? project manager: ah yeah maybe there . okay . user interface: up . project manager: who are you ? user interface: um at three i think . project manager: user interface: no ? mm . project manager: ouch . and user interface: industrial designer: okay . project manager: we have a technical problem uh . user interface: do we think w s in the in the wrong folder maybe ? it is possible . project manager: you put it on industrial designer: no . user interface: it was somewhere in something like this . i do n't remember the name actually must be something like messenger ami or something . industrial designer: what do you have in short cut ? user interface: go up . industrial designer: participant two . user interface: yeah go up . project manager: yeah . user interface: again . no . go back . project manager: you have no user interface: uh maybe messenger ami . messenger . project manager: over . okay . user interface: no . there is nothing . project manager: there 's no we have a technical problem . user interface: let 's go and check . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: i 'll go and check . industrial designer: otherwise , could you just describe by hand ? user interface: okay . industrial designer: with the the whiteboard ? project manager: if you remember yeah user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: but that 's user interface: so uh . basically what we want here is a remote control right . project manager: yeah . user interface: so um the question well first of all what to control . so most people want to have a a remote for their hi-fi and tv and stuff like that . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and but other people want th also remotes for controlling uh and toys like robotic pets and little robots and stuff industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and other people also want to have remotes for controlling um whole house . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , so there 's a project i think called x_ house or something like that that does that , uh you can integrate your remote with uh computers stuff . so industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: there is one that is one thing . the other is the the finder feature yeah by whistling or whatever . uh if you have the finder feature then you can also have industrial designer: okay . user interface: uh at the same time as and general voice commands if you want yeah . so i think it should be a package in that case . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: uh so the user interface will consist of two parts . one is the voice command part and on one is the actual buttons part . uh and th the buttons part would be uh a set of buttons for choosing devices , a set of buttons for special navigation in space , industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: a set of buttons for linear access of medium and a set of buttons for random access . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah ? industrial designer: what do you mean by linear access then ? user interface: like a video tape goes forward , backwards , uh fast and stuff yeah . industrial designer: ah . project manager: okay so special navigation , linear access , random access user interface: um . project manager: and there 's a fourth one no ? user interface: mm ? project manager: so the better now for special navigation ? user interface: yeah . for special navigation for example you might have a tv in the menu and you going to change yeah ? project manager: okay . then linear access user interface: uh . project manager: then random access . user interface: mm . yeah and also parameter changing . project manager: ah yeah parameter okay . user interface: so if there are common parameters maybe we should put special buttons for that um project manager: okay . user interface: or maybe we could have everything uh generic but uh there are a lot of uh remotes on the market right now and basically this is most of the almost everybody has this stuff . project manager: okay . okay and and voice command did you uh user interface: voice command w we could specify anything . we could assign any button a command to any button , if we have enough processing power , project manager: okay . okay . user interface: i guess so . yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: so that 's uh that close your investigations ? user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: uh yeah i think so . project manager: okay . user interface: not so far . project manager: maybe we can have a look at the user requirements with marketing: yeah . um i dunno if you can open the project manager: i dunno if i can open it . maybe you can s marketing: uh m is not here . project manager: it 's marketing: uh in yeah okay . project manager: messenger no ? marketing: no . in document . mm computer yeah . project manager: in which folder ? user interface: where did you put it ? marketing: here . here . project manager: short-cut to ami shared folder ? user interface: mm . marketing: but it 's not um . project manager: maybe you can send it to me by email . just to participant one . at ami . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah , i can do that . project manager: i will try to show it to everyone , that would be more comfortable . marketing: okay . um . project manager: you send it ? marketing: it 's participant one ? project manager: yeah . uh this is this email . user interface: i 'm designing the user interface . marketing: okay . you can uh . project manager: okay . so maybe i can switch slides when you whenever you ask , marketing: yeah . project manager: that will be more convenient . so okay , functional requirements . marketing: okay so you can you can go . okay so in our usability lab we observed the remote control use among one hundred subjects project manager: mm . marketing: and the subjects also filled a questionnaire project manager: yeah . marketing: okay ? and here i have the results so you can see that um seventy five per cent of users find most remote controls ugly so we have to find something to make them more more nice , more kind . eighty per cents of users would spend more money when the remote control would look fancy . eighty hundred per cent of users would spend more money when the remote control would look project manager: user interface: marketing: oh to it 's not good . so okay . project manager: we can just keep doing that ? marketing: so it 's not in theory but i i can i can say yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: fifty f uh seventy five per cent of users say they s zap a lot . so mm we have to have a remote control uh very um out for that . uh the buttons have are to be um uh uh like you say resist resisting to to shocks . project manager: okay . marketing: um and fifty per cents of users say they only use uh ten per cents of but of the buttons in the in the remote control . industrial designer: project manager: okay . marketing: so all the buttons we we have to put are have to to have um a use a real use project manager: okay . marketing: and not only or project manager: okay , so fewer buttons maybe would be good ? marketing: yeah . f not many buttons , and uh and uh uh u useable buttons . project manager: okay . user interface: but what kind of remote controls did you look at ? marketing: sorry ? user interface: what kind of task was it ? it was a tv ? marketing: yeah . uh most for most is tv . project manager: yeah . yeah but in fact we it it seems that we are going to make a tv remote control according to new requirements i received from the management user interface: huh . project manager: bo i will present them in the following . user interface: uh-huh . ah ! good . marketing: 'kay you can go so . project manager: okay . marketing: so there are other frustrations expressed by users , so they said uh they lost uh often the remote control in in the room so they want to have a way to to project manager: yeah . to find it . marketing: to find it . project manager: yeah . marketing: um and um lot of the time they it takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control . project manager: yeah . marketing: so they want something s really very simple and uh easy to use . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . marketing: and uh remote controls are bad for project manager: what is her other side ? marketing: r_s_i_ um user interface: other side yeah , yo wa your wrist marketing: i dunno . project manager: user interface: it i can become painful you can have tendonditis . project manager: oh yeah ? user interface: yeah . project manager: i did not knew that . user interface: if you also up on a computer in a strange position . project manager: okay so you we have to make it uh more ergonomic yeah . user interface: ergonomic . but uh . marketing: yeah . user interface: have to say ha ha . project manager: it 's your job marketing: project manager: oh . marketing: uh . project manager: uh sorry got a message from microsoft . industrial designer: marketing: okay um before that i i have some some some thing uh to say before um project manager: yeah . yeah yeah . marketing: we know that uh the user use uh a lot their um remote control um to to change channel . project manager: yeah . marketing: um and um to to change uh volume selection of the project manager: okay . marketing: and uh and not uh a lot for setting for setting the the channels and uh thing things like that . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so it 's better to put uh uh uh something very easy to set and uh and project manager: yeah . this function should be very uh accessible . marketing: very accessible yes . project manager: yeah , okay . this is the main function okay . marketing: that 's right . so then we asked some questions to them project manager: yeah . marketing: and um we asked this question if they prefer an lcd screen or on their remultific function remotes control project manager: yeah . marketing: and if they mm pay more for speech recognition in remote control project manager: yeah . marketing: and you can go we have here the results of user interface: the first question . marketing: of the questions . so you know that um project manager: marketing: for the younger it 's very important project manager: to have lcd and voice . marketing: to have the s yes and speech recognition . and uh and the others is not so important but uh we know that uh uh people between fifteen and twenty five are people who watch a lot tv and uh who who wh can use a lot this uh . project manager: okay . marketing: so maybe we we can have a speech recognition in . project manager: yeah maybe this this is important . marketing: yeah . project manager: moreover th maybe those uh like those teenager customer could advice their parents to buy this equipment and so we can user interface: mm . project manager: we have to take care of that point of view i think or so . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . marketing: okay and if there is th the conclusion now . so as we say before , i think uh um a remote control lightening in the dark it 's it 's a good thing . project manager: okay . marketing: uh not to many mud buttons like we we said before , project manager: yeah . marketing: e easy to use uh a way to find it easily in the room and uh uh resistant to to shock and to to industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . marketing: an i s no , yeah . project manager: okay these are the user requi marketing: i dunno if you see something else important or industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: i 'm just thinking of some thing . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: um we want to have a no , i do n't know if this is a good idea . we want to have a a general remote control for everything . project manager: no no no . we w it seems that we no want to have a tv remote control . from the management board i receive an email . user interface: mm . industrial designer: okay . yeah . project manager: cos it would be costly uh and and also it it would take more time to develop to have a a general generic remote control . industrial designer: yeah . yeah yeah . yeah . user interface: mm i it 's not true i think . the the second claim that you put . industrial designer: no no . project manager: that it would be too long to develop . user interface: yeah . marketing: user interface: i think that should be the same . project manager: oh yeah . because i received that email from management board and they seems to tell that that if we want to be on the market as early as possible we should uh focus on tv more where it seems that the market is more important . so maybe it 's a good decision . i dunno . what 's your opinion ? user interface: i have uh i 've no idea i mean i should know a bit more about how fast we can uh design it . marketing: user interface: i do n't think project manager: industrial designer: marketing: user interface: uh yeah . industrial designer: finish tonight . project manager: user interface: yeah . okay . yeah . industrial designer: but basically yeah maybe i can continue with my presentation , it would be al you you project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but i think we have some technical problem or so . so i 'm just going to describe briefly what we do in the remote control . project manager: maybe you can go to the whiteboard if you have some drawings to do industrial designer: if fact project manager: i do n't know . industrial designer: yeah but marketing: mm . industrial designer: do i have oh yeah . project manager: industrial designer: now i have enough cables . user interface: like a you feel a bit like a dog with this stuff . project manager: industrial designer: okay so i 'm just going to describe in fact for for a remote control this is quite easy . we just have project manager: user interface: industrial designer: sorry , i 'm going project manager: okay . user interface: project manager: are you okay ? industrial designer: like that . i 'm just going to describe . basically we have a a battery a power supply here . after that we just have um user interface . let 's say that um something like that , which could be um a lcd let 's say or um an array of push button , something like that . push button or a lcd . after that we we feed that into um uh an electronic chip . so i say u_c_ and i feed that to uh l_e_d_ which is uh infrared um which is a an infrared um component . and so what we for for myself this for for us this is quite easy . project manager: u_c_ is the central unit ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay yeah . industrial designer: y it 's a it 's this just a chip which does all the um numerical project manager: computation . industrial designer: numerical computation according to your display . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and so for us uh this is quite easy . we just need to take to define what we want to do when the user interface um wants something and after that we just do the coding to s and send that to to to the not the to the television . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so for us this is quite easy . project manager: okay so this is quite easy . there is not that much constraints . industrial designer: yeah . um we just have to define the processing power that we need uh especially if we want to do some uh speech recognition , in that case that mean that we are going to use more for simple user interface: this will think this will take more time to develop also . industrial designer: yeah of course of course . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and um but for a standard one this is really easy . it 's a question of one month and so on s user interface: soon . project manager: to have a you s you speak about with voi voice control ? industrial designer: no no no no , project manager: standard button one . industrial designer: i say yeah standard uh standard remote control takes maybe uh one month to to do that . user interface: yeah . so the only time problem is the sp voice recognition . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: definitely . user interface: yeah . project manager: so do you have any idea of how long it would take to have voice recognition now ? user interface: ten years . industrial designer: i would say . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: i would say uh about eight months to have the first results . project manager: okay so i it 's a bit long yeah . industrial designer: yeah . i can um . project manager: one month for the standard one with button . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: even if we have a lcd display ? industrial designer: yeah even . i mean that this is really standard devices now . um eight . for uh speech recognition . project manager: okay yeah . okay so we can take this into account . so who think it would be good to go for uh like speech recognition ? user interface: but we do n't have time to market . project manager: yeah it will . industrial designer: and also how much uh i think user interface: i think we should contact management . industrial designer: during the kickoff meeting you say that we we should n't we should n't go up to twelve point five euro per unit marketing: project manager: euros . yeah , yeah . industrial designer: so how many units should we sell to have a user interface: well . uh project manager: well each unit is is sell uh twenty five euros . industrial designer: yeah but how many yeah . user interface: how muc how much do you get how much do you if you buy one million units h no , one hundred thousand units . marketing: user interface: eh chips . we 're gon na need chips right . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . how much will it cost for one hundred thousand ? industrial designer: usually this is less tha at two dollars per chip . user interface: okay . project manager: because we are user interface: so you have any idea for a powerful one that has uh good enough for do speech recognition . industrial designer: yeah , user interface: yeah ? okay . industrial designer: we can user interface: so . project manager: it seems that that we want to sell like four million units from the first meeting . user interface: no it does n't . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: okay . four million . project manager: okay . maybe we can uh we can look at the new requirement i receive from the management board and discus discuss all function we want to have . marketing: mm . industrial designer: um i just had a question uh do you want to continue with your presenta ? marketing: project manager: yeah i i will continue . industrial designer: is it project manager: well ask your question if you want . industrial designer: um you say that i do n't remember by heart but thirty per cent marketing: mm ? industrial designer: of the tested people say that 's it 's quite difficult to to to use the remote control . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: do they say that this is difficult but for the same reason or do they have other reason ? to to marketing: oh . industrial designer: maybe to keep in mind maybe to access to that menu you should do something like that . marketing: would j uh yeah w i i think they they say that it 's uh difficult to learn how to use it but i when you know how to use it , it 's it 's okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: okay . it 's not intuitive first . industrial designer: and marketing: but yeah . industrial designer: but yeah maybe and what about if we design a remote control which can be configure as you want ? you say that i want , i have six button user interface: mh-hmm . a a lot of people are uh if you have the lcd screen if you can do it completely the way you want because the buttons also look the way you want them industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . but , but also it seems that industrial designer: yeah . user interface: but it will be hard to configure i mean imagine i uh project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so it 's really something for the expert user . so industrial designer: okay . user interface: i mean there are markets and markets . i think the young people are th uh are uh marketing: user interface: christine here said uh you have a industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: uh it is yeah . so for our young people uh it will be cool , they can be able to use it . th maybe their parents will not but they will configure it . i guess . i do n't know if there is study about that . project manager: yeah . maybe it would be more complex to configure it to be simple than creating a simple product . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: and there are another thing is that if we make something that 's simple and easy to use that 's bas to use immediately that means that it will be exactly the same as everything else . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: all right ? industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: otherwise , if it 's different then of course everybody has somebody has to learn to use it first . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: but also we we see that that most people find it find remote controls too complex because they have too many buttons and they mainly use only channels and volume buttons . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: mm . project manager: so we may just uh make a very easy to use remote control with mainly those buttons user interface: yeah . project manager: and maybe also um some lightning stuff too because most people find also hard to to find the remote control . losed lose it etcetera . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: these these are these two points are the main frustrations so maybe if we design something very simple and easy to uh find when lost it will uh add uh a serious competitive advantage without making something too complex and too long to develop . marketing: mm . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so but le let us see first the new requirement . so we do n't have to so this this uh is uh is um in the this is in the same direction as we were speaking so we do n't have to make a very complex remote controls to access teletext and stuff like that user interface: but teletext is just one button . project manager: yeah but then you have to you have to define the buttons to surf amongst pages and stuff . user interface: you you just write the write the numbers . project manager: yeah . so well user interface: so will you add with the channel keys , right ? project manager: yeah . so anyway we do n't have to include this feature because it 's it 's not used any more by users , user interface: so . project manager: they prefer to s user interface: i am . i 'm sure that uh it do n't like but uh i do n't see just one button . project manager: yeah . i dunno . user interface: so . project manager: if i one button is still one more button . if if if we want to make it very simple we have to reduce number of buttons compared to th to our competitors . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: well anyway i have this point . we can discuss . also um so as as i told before uh it would be better if it 's only for the tv um because we want to be quick on on the market . and then also we have to make very uh uh clear that this uh this remote control is is part of of our products and show our corporate uh logo and and colours on the on the design as well so that uh they identify it as one of our product . so this is the the key point . marketing: project manager: so before uh finishing we can uh define uh what would be the characteristic of the o th of the control of the remote control and which button do we need which function do we want etcetera . user interface: capital . marketing: mm . project manager: so do you um so so from from the the marketing expert i think a key aspect is the easy to use aspect , it should be very simple and most button are never used marketing: mm . project manager: only ten per cent of the button are are used often so i think we have to do something very simple and i think we all agree on that point , no ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: well if it is going to be just a tv remote control it is going to be very simple . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah okay . so yeah the key point here is simple . maybe . so few buttons , channel , volume control and what el what function do you see in addition to that ? user interface: well if it 's going to be as simple as possible then just have the remote control , there is no other function that i can see project manager: yeah . user interface: really . project manager: maybe switch tv on and off user interface: uh industrial designer: project manager: user interface: no you want to keep television on so that the advertising can revenue can come back to us . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: or something . marketing: project manager: volume , maybe a mute button , and then on off button . industrial designer: mm . project manager: and that 's all ? industrial designer: uh i know that som you say that many people are doing plenty of a lot of zapping . project manager: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: industrial designer: i know tha i discovered that when i did a quick look , uh they do now som they do something which is quite nice now , user interface: it 's a memory , yeah . industrial designer: you have a button , you you press it , and this is uh the previous channel which has come back . project manager: okay . yeah this is cool . maybe we can include that also . previous previous channel button . so we have like channel button , the previous channel button , the volume button , plus a mute button , and uh just the the traditional on off button . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: and uh and of course the channel changing buttons . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . i i talk about that , yeah ? user interface: how should they how should we implement that ? because uh could be numerical only or could be also incremental . project manager: yeah . incremental definitely because zapping you you switch them . industrial designer: user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: let 's say that we can do something like that . this is uh incremental , but once you press it for a long time , you go five by five . project manager: we go faster ? industrial designer: to go fa to go faster . project manager: mm . user interface: mm . it 's an interesting idea , that if you press it for a long time it does something else , in general . so if you you have your ten buttons for the for the numeric the numerical buttons and you have instead of having just one memory industrial designer: yeah . marketing: user interface: you have if you press them for a long time no . does n't work does it . project manager: maybe we should have also a digit button user interface: maybe we should have a complete keyboard and just type console commands . project manager: industrial designer: project manager: yeah . user interface: change channel to eight . project manager: maybe we have also to have digits or only incremental . user interface: no . project manager: i dunno bec because if you have the user interface: well if it 's useful like if if you want to change between three channels for example then you h you can not you can not can not work with just memory being incremental . project manager: uh . yeah . because you have your previous channel button if you have incremental only it 's not uh it is n't worth it because the previous channel is eith either minus one or plus one . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: so i think we need also digits . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: maybe we we can make very obvious the channel and volume button button and smaller button down there with the the digits . user interface: yeah when you zap usually you will have to press the same button all the time project manager: yeah . user interface: and industrial designer: or we can do something like that . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we can design the remote control to have access . you know some remote control have uh protection marketing: user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and so you you y project manager: yeah . user interface: hey i just thought this thing industrial designer: you user interface: there is a i mean you know there is are some with a wheel like this . instead of having the up down buttons for uh you can have the wheel . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , a kind of joystick . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . maybe we can have a wheel for incremental . user interface: project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: so have a wheel for incremental , have the digits uh on the lower side that can be closed so as you say protected , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh yeah i think this is the basi user interface: on the lower side i think it you have to turn it . project manager: and do we do we have a user interface: no ? if we do that . industrial designer: or a or a ball , yeah , not a a wheel but a ball , and you say uh to project manager: no , a wheel is better . user interface: yeah . project manager: i would say the wheel is better . user interface: because of that project manager: what is the expert of uh industrial designer: yeah . user interface: the channels change one by one . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so you have to the user has to like to should feel the the the discrete sense a bit . industrial designer: yeah , the project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . that 's a good idea . user interface: yeah . project manager: well also we have to decide uh so it should be lightening in the dark i think because most people lost their remote control . industrial designer: 's quite it 's quite easy we do that w with back light on the on the wheel . project manager: okay . marketing: user interface: yeah . even if i l_e_d_ uh or a if if it 's the lcd feature uh industrial designer: a blue a blue l_e_d_ and we sell that um . project manager: yeah , user interface: whatever , yeah . project manager: and do we put an lcd display ? marketing: user interface: yeah . project manager: because it was important for young customers if you remember . user interface: i think it 's only put on if cou have multi function . if you do not multi function then there is no p point in having lcd . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: just increase the cost . project manager: okay . user interface: the user does not have an advantage really . project manager: so no lcd ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: hmm . project manager: and so no speech as well because it w it would delay too much the development process user interface: well if it 's going to delay yeah industrial designer: okay . user interface: but uh it will be cool . it would . because a user could say c_n_n_ for example and it would go c_n_n_ . mm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . that would be cool . but eight months is really long user interface: yeah . project manager: and maybe we can just uh industrial designer: ten years project manager: user interface: project manager: okay . so um i i will uh i will so i we will move to next meeting so in after the lunch break uh here are the individual uh action uh you are required to do industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: but you will be uh recalled to the actions by uh email i think but you can take notes if you if you want but well the instruction will be sent . so thank you for uh your suggestion industrial designer: okay . project manager: and i i will make a summary of that meeting that i will put in the shared folder you ca n't see industrial designer: okay . okay . marketing: project manager: and uh and then you will um you will be able to to see what has been uh has been said on on this meeting and and what has been decided . uh maybe for next meeting uh send me your presentation before by email so that we can see them uh altogether . that would be easier . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: what is the folder that you put yours in ? and did it it did work ? marketing: no . project manager: no it did not work . marketing: no no . project manager: she send it to me by email . user interface: ah yeah . mm . marketing: i dunno , i dunno it . user interface: okay . project manager: so maybe this is better , to send it by email . okay ? user interface: okay what is your email ? project manager: so yeah i i 'm it 's in the first uh email so i 'm participant one at ami user interface: at participant one . okay . project manager: uh where is that , it 's here . participant one at ami . okay . so see you after lunch break . user interface: well during lunch break actually . marketing: 'kay thank you . user interface: so next time we should have a fight . project manager: user interface: how about uh management or something . who happens to be your friend . project manager: user interface: { gap }

user interface proposed a paradox here . on the one hand , being simple and easy to use might be achieved at the price of losing individuality ; on the other hand , being individual unavoidably meant that everybody must learn to use it first .

what did project manager think as the main frustrations of designing the remote control when discussing the technical design ? </s> project manager: industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: okay . project manager: okay everyone 's ready . user interface: hello . project manager: so we are here for uh for uh functional design . user interface: project manager: okay ? so we are here for the functional design meeting mm so first i will show the agenda so we will uh i will take notes during this meeting so i will try to summarise it and put that summary in the shared folder if you want to look at it afterwards user interface: project manager: so then uh each of you will uh lead a presentation on the task that has been required last time so user requirement specification , technical function design and working design . then i will uh present you some new project requirements i received from uh the management board . then we will take uh the decision on on the remote control uh needed functions and then i will assign you the task for the next part of the meeting . of the of the process . so uh who want to start the the presentation of what they did ? industrial designer: f do you want to start ? user interface: make a start yeah . project manager: you can start . user interface: so . project manager: user interface: cable , camera . project manager: you have uh powerpoint ? user interface: should be in my in their folder no ? project manager: ah yeah maybe there . okay . user interface: up . project manager: who are you ? user interface: um at three i think . project manager: user interface: no ? mm . project manager: ouch . and user interface: industrial designer: okay . project manager: we have a technical problem uh . user interface: do we think w s in the in the wrong folder maybe ? it is possible . project manager: you put it on industrial designer: no . user interface: it was somewhere in something like this . i do n't remember the name actually must be something like messenger ami or something . industrial designer: what do you have in short cut ? user interface: go up . industrial designer: participant two . user interface: yeah go up . project manager: yeah . user interface: again . no . go back . project manager: you have no user interface: uh maybe messenger ami . messenger . project manager: over . okay . user interface: no . there is nothing . project manager: there 's no we have a technical problem . user interface: let 's go and check . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: i 'll go and check . industrial designer: otherwise , could you just describe by hand ? user interface: okay . industrial designer: with the the whiteboard ? project manager: if you remember yeah user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: but that 's user interface: so uh . basically what we want here is a remote control right . project manager: yeah . user interface: so um the question well first of all what to control . so most people want to have a a remote for their hi-fi and tv and stuff like that . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and but other people want th also remotes for controlling uh and toys like robotic pets and little robots and stuff industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and other people also want to have remotes for controlling um whole house . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , so there 's a project i think called x_ house or something like that that does that , uh you can integrate your remote with uh computers stuff . so industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: there is one that is one thing . the other is the the finder feature yeah by whistling or whatever . uh if you have the finder feature then you can also have industrial designer: okay . user interface: uh at the same time as and general voice commands if you want yeah . so i think it should be a package in that case . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: uh so the user interface will consist of two parts . one is the voice command part and on one is the actual buttons part . uh and th the buttons part would be uh a set of buttons for choosing devices , a set of buttons for special navigation in space , industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: a set of buttons for linear access of medium and a set of buttons for random access . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah ? industrial designer: what do you mean by linear access then ? user interface: like a video tape goes forward , backwards , uh fast and stuff yeah . industrial designer: ah . project manager: okay so special navigation , linear access , random access user interface: um . project manager: and there 's a fourth one no ? user interface: mm ? project manager: so the better now for special navigation ? user interface: yeah . for special navigation for example you might have a tv in the menu and you going to change yeah ? project manager: okay . then linear access user interface: uh . project manager: then random access . user interface: mm . yeah and also parameter changing . project manager: ah yeah parameter okay . user interface: so if there are common parameters maybe we should put special buttons for that um project manager: okay . user interface: or maybe we could have everything uh generic but uh there are a lot of uh remotes on the market right now and basically this is most of the almost everybody has this stuff . project manager: okay . okay and and voice command did you uh user interface: voice command w we could specify anything . we could assign any button a command to any button , if we have enough processing power , project manager: okay . okay . user interface: i guess so . yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: so that 's uh that close your investigations ? user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: uh yeah i think so . project manager: okay . user interface: not so far . project manager: maybe we can have a look at the user requirements with marketing: yeah . um i dunno if you can open the project manager: i dunno if i can open it . maybe you can s marketing: uh m is not here . project manager: it 's marketing: uh in yeah okay . project manager: messenger no ? marketing: no . in document . mm computer yeah . project manager: in which folder ? user interface: where did you put it ? marketing: here . here . project manager: short-cut to ami shared folder ? user interface: mm . marketing: but it 's not um . project manager: maybe you can send it to me by email . just to participant one . at ami . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah , i can do that . project manager: i will try to show it to everyone , that would be more comfortable . marketing: okay . um . project manager: you send it ? marketing: it 's participant one ? project manager: yeah . uh this is this email . user interface: i 'm designing the user interface . marketing: okay . you can uh . project manager: okay . so maybe i can switch slides when you whenever you ask , marketing: yeah . project manager: that will be more convenient . so okay , functional requirements . marketing: okay so you can you can go . okay so in our usability lab we observed the remote control use among one hundred subjects project manager: mm . marketing: and the subjects also filled a questionnaire project manager: yeah . marketing: okay ? and here i have the results so you can see that um seventy five per cent of users find most remote controls ugly so we have to find something to make them more more nice , more kind . eighty per cents of users would spend more money when the remote control would look fancy . eighty hundred per cent of users would spend more money when the remote control would look project manager: user interface: marketing: oh to it 's not good . so okay . project manager: we can just keep doing that ? marketing: so it 's not in theory but i i can i can say yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: fifty f uh seventy five per cent of users say they s zap a lot . so mm we have to have a remote control uh very um out for that . uh the buttons have are to be um uh uh like you say resist resisting to to shocks . project manager: okay . marketing: um and fifty per cents of users say they only use uh ten per cents of but of the buttons in the in the remote control . industrial designer: project manager: okay . marketing: so all the buttons we we have to put are have to to have um a use a real use project manager: okay . marketing: and not only or project manager: okay , so fewer buttons maybe would be good ? marketing: yeah . f not many buttons , and uh and uh uh u useable buttons . project manager: okay . user interface: but what kind of remote controls did you look at ? marketing: sorry ? user interface: what kind of task was it ? it was a tv ? marketing: yeah . uh most for most is tv . project manager: yeah . yeah but in fact we it it seems that we are going to make a tv remote control according to new requirements i received from the management user interface: huh . project manager: bo i will present them in the following . user interface: uh-huh . ah ! good . marketing: 'kay you can go so . project manager: okay . marketing: so there are other frustrations expressed by users , so they said uh they lost uh often the remote control in in the room so they want to have a way to to project manager: yeah . to find it . marketing: to find it . project manager: yeah . marketing: um and um lot of the time they it takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control . project manager: yeah . marketing: so they want something s really very simple and uh easy to use . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . marketing: and uh remote controls are bad for project manager: what is her other side ? marketing: r_s_i_ um user interface: other side yeah , yo wa your wrist marketing: i dunno . project manager: user interface: it i can become painful you can have tendonditis . project manager: oh yeah ? user interface: yeah . project manager: i did not knew that . user interface: if you also up on a computer in a strange position . project manager: okay so you we have to make it uh more ergonomic yeah . user interface: ergonomic . but uh . marketing: yeah . user interface: have to say ha ha . project manager: it 's your job marketing: project manager: oh . marketing: uh . project manager: uh sorry got a message from microsoft . industrial designer: marketing: okay um before that i i have some some some thing uh to say before um project manager: yeah . yeah yeah . marketing: we know that uh the user use uh a lot their um remote control um to to change channel . project manager: yeah . marketing: um and um to to change uh volume selection of the project manager: okay . marketing: and uh and not uh a lot for setting for setting the the channels and uh thing things like that . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so it 's better to put uh uh uh something very easy to set and uh and project manager: yeah . this function should be very uh accessible . marketing: very accessible yes . project manager: yeah , okay . this is the main function okay . marketing: that 's right . so then we asked some questions to them project manager: yeah . marketing: and um we asked this question if they prefer an lcd screen or on their remultific function remotes control project manager: yeah . marketing: and if they mm pay more for speech recognition in remote control project manager: yeah . marketing: and you can go we have here the results of user interface: the first question . marketing: of the questions . so you know that um project manager: marketing: for the younger it 's very important project manager: to have lcd and voice . marketing: to have the s yes and speech recognition . and uh and the others is not so important but uh we know that uh uh people between fifteen and twenty five are people who watch a lot tv and uh who who wh can use a lot this uh . project manager: okay . marketing: so maybe we we can have a speech recognition in . project manager: yeah maybe this this is important . marketing: yeah . project manager: moreover th maybe those uh like those teenager customer could advice their parents to buy this equipment and so we can user interface: mm . project manager: we have to take care of that point of view i think or so . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . marketing: okay and if there is th the conclusion now . so as we say before , i think uh um a remote control lightening in the dark it 's it 's a good thing . project manager: okay . marketing: uh not to many mud buttons like we we said before , project manager: yeah . marketing: e easy to use uh a way to find it easily in the room and uh uh resistant to to shock and to to industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . marketing: an i s no , yeah . project manager: okay these are the user requi marketing: i dunno if you see something else important or industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: i 'm just thinking of some thing . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: um we want to have a no , i do n't know if this is a good idea . we want to have a a general remote control for everything . project manager: no no no . we w it seems that we no want to have a tv remote control . from the management board i receive an email . user interface: mm . industrial designer: okay . yeah . project manager: cos it would be costly uh and and also it it would take more time to develop to have a a general generic remote control . industrial designer: yeah . yeah yeah . yeah . user interface: mm i it 's not true i think . the the second claim that you put . industrial designer: no no . project manager: that it would be too long to develop . user interface: yeah . marketing: user interface: i think that should be the same . project manager: oh yeah . because i received that email from management board and they seems to tell that that if we want to be on the market as early as possible we should uh focus on tv more where it seems that the market is more important . so maybe it 's a good decision . i dunno . what 's your opinion ? user interface: i have uh i 've no idea i mean i should know a bit more about how fast we can uh design it . marketing: user interface: i do n't think project manager: industrial designer: marketing: user interface: uh yeah . industrial designer: finish tonight . project manager: user interface: yeah . okay . yeah . industrial designer: but basically yeah maybe i can continue with my presentation , it would be al you you project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but i think we have some technical problem or so . so i 'm just going to describe briefly what we do in the remote control . project manager: maybe you can go to the whiteboard if you have some drawings to do industrial designer: if fact project manager: i do n't know . industrial designer: yeah but marketing: mm . industrial designer: do i have oh yeah . project manager: industrial designer: now i have enough cables . user interface: like a you feel a bit like a dog with this stuff . project manager: industrial designer: okay so i 'm just going to describe in fact for for a remote control this is quite easy . we just have project manager: user interface: industrial designer: sorry , i 'm going project manager: okay . user interface: project manager: are you okay ? industrial designer: like that . i 'm just going to describe . basically we have a a battery a power supply here . after that we just have um user interface . let 's say that um something like that , which could be um a lcd let 's say or um an array of push button , something like that . push button or a lcd . after that we we feed that into um uh an electronic chip . so i say u_c_ and i feed that to uh l_e_d_ which is uh infrared um which is a an infrared um component . and so what we for for myself this for for us this is quite easy . project manager: u_c_ is the central unit ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay yeah . industrial designer: y it 's a it 's this just a chip which does all the um numerical project manager: computation . industrial designer: numerical computation according to your display . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and so for us uh this is quite easy . we just need to take to define what we want to do when the user interface um wants something and after that we just do the coding to s and send that to to to the not the to the television . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so for us this is quite easy . project manager: okay so this is quite easy . there is not that much constraints . industrial designer: yeah . um we just have to define the processing power that we need uh especially if we want to do some uh speech recognition , in that case that mean that we are going to use more for simple user interface: this will think this will take more time to develop also . industrial designer: yeah of course of course . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and um but for a standard one this is really easy . it 's a question of one month and so on s user interface: soon . project manager: to have a you s you speak about with voi voice control ? industrial designer: no no no no , project manager: standard button one . industrial designer: i say yeah standard uh standard remote control takes maybe uh one month to to do that . user interface: yeah . so the only time problem is the sp voice recognition . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: definitely . user interface: yeah . project manager: so do you have any idea of how long it would take to have voice recognition now ? user interface: ten years . industrial designer: i would say . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: i would say uh about eight months to have the first results . project manager: okay so i it 's a bit long yeah . industrial designer: yeah . i can um . project manager: one month for the standard one with button . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: even if we have a lcd display ? industrial designer: yeah even . i mean that this is really standard devices now . um eight . for uh speech recognition . project manager: okay yeah . okay so we can take this into account . so who think it would be good to go for uh like speech recognition ? user interface: but we do n't have time to market . project manager: yeah it will . industrial designer: and also how much uh i think user interface: i think we should contact management . industrial designer: during the kickoff meeting you say that we we should n't we should n't go up to twelve point five euro per unit marketing: project manager: euros . yeah , yeah . industrial designer: so how many units should we sell to have a user interface: well . uh project manager: well each unit is is sell uh twenty five euros . industrial designer: yeah but how many yeah . user interface: how muc how much do you get how much do you if you buy one million units h no , one hundred thousand units . marketing: user interface: eh chips . we 're gon na need chips right . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . how much will it cost for one hundred thousand ? industrial designer: usually this is less tha at two dollars per chip . user interface: okay . project manager: because we are user interface: so you have any idea for a powerful one that has uh good enough for do speech recognition . industrial designer: yeah , user interface: yeah ? okay . industrial designer: we can user interface: so . project manager: it seems that that we want to sell like four million units from the first meeting . user interface: no it does n't . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: okay . four million . project manager: okay . maybe we can uh we can look at the new requirement i receive from the management board and discus discuss all function we want to have . marketing: mm . industrial designer: um i just had a question uh do you want to continue with your presenta ? marketing: project manager: yeah i i will continue . industrial designer: is it project manager: well ask your question if you want . industrial designer: um you say that i do n't remember by heart but thirty per cent marketing: mm ? industrial designer: of the tested people say that 's it 's quite difficult to to to use the remote control . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: do they say that this is difficult but for the same reason or do they have other reason ? to to marketing: oh . industrial designer: maybe to keep in mind maybe to access to that menu you should do something like that . marketing: would j uh yeah w i i think they they say that it 's uh difficult to learn how to use it but i when you know how to use it , it 's it 's okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: okay . it 's not intuitive first . industrial designer: and marketing: but yeah . industrial designer: but yeah maybe and what about if we design a remote control which can be configure as you want ? you say that i want , i have six button user interface: mh-hmm . a a lot of people are uh if you have the lcd screen if you can do it completely the way you want because the buttons also look the way you want them industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . but , but also it seems that industrial designer: yeah . user interface: but it will be hard to configure i mean imagine i uh project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so it 's really something for the expert user . so industrial designer: okay . user interface: i mean there are markets and markets . i think the young people are th uh are uh marketing: user interface: christine here said uh you have a industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: uh it is yeah . so for our young people uh it will be cool , they can be able to use it . th maybe their parents will not but they will configure it . i guess . i do n't know if there is study about that . project manager: yeah . maybe it would be more complex to configure it to be simple than creating a simple product . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: and there are another thing is that if we make something that 's simple and easy to use that 's bas to use immediately that means that it will be exactly the same as everything else . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: all right ? industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: otherwise , if it 's different then of course everybody has somebody has to learn to use it first . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: but also we we see that that most people find it find remote controls too complex because they have too many buttons and they mainly use only channels and volume buttons . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: mm . project manager: so we may just uh make a very easy to use remote control with mainly those buttons user interface: yeah . project manager: and maybe also um some lightning stuff too because most people find also hard to to find the remote control . losed lose it etcetera . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: these these are these two points are the main frustrations so maybe if we design something very simple and easy to uh find when lost it will uh add uh a serious competitive advantage without making something too complex and too long to develop . marketing: mm . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so but le let us see first the new requirement . so we do n't have to so this this uh is uh is um in the this is in the same direction as we were speaking so we do n't have to make a very complex remote controls to access teletext and stuff like that user interface: but teletext is just one button . project manager: yeah but then you have to you have to define the buttons to surf amongst pages and stuff . user interface: you you just write the write the numbers . project manager: yeah . so well user interface: so will you add with the channel keys , right ? project manager: yeah . so anyway we do n't have to include this feature because it 's it 's not used any more by users , user interface: so . project manager: they prefer to s user interface: i am . i 'm sure that uh it do n't like but uh i do n't see just one button . project manager: yeah . i dunno . user interface: so . project manager: if i one button is still one more button . if if if we want to make it very simple we have to reduce number of buttons compared to th to our competitors . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: well anyway i have this point . we can discuss . also um so as as i told before uh it would be better if it 's only for the tv um because we want to be quick on on the market . and then also we have to make very uh uh clear that this uh this remote control is is part of of our products and show our corporate uh logo and and colours on the on the design as well so that uh they identify it as one of our product . so this is the the key point . marketing: project manager: so before uh finishing we can uh define uh what would be the characteristic of the o th of the control of the remote control and which button do we need which function do we want etcetera . user interface: capital . marketing: mm . project manager: so do you um so so from from the the marketing expert i think a key aspect is the easy to use aspect , it should be very simple and most button are never used marketing: mm . project manager: only ten per cent of the button are are used often so i think we have to do something very simple and i think we all agree on that point , no ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: well if it is going to be just a tv remote control it is going to be very simple . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah okay . so yeah the key point here is simple . maybe . so few buttons , channel , volume control and what el what function do you see in addition to that ? user interface: well if it 's going to be as simple as possible then just have the remote control , there is no other function that i can see project manager: yeah . user interface: really . project manager: maybe switch tv on and off user interface: uh industrial designer: project manager: user interface: no you want to keep television on so that the advertising can revenue can come back to us . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: or something . marketing: project manager: volume , maybe a mute button , and then on off button . industrial designer: mm . project manager: and that 's all ? industrial designer: uh i know that som you say that many people are doing plenty of a lot of zapping . project manager: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: industrial designer: i know tha i discovered that when i did a quick look , uh they do now som they do something which is quite nice now , user interface: it 's a memory , yeah . industrial designer: you have a button , you you press it , and this is uh the previous channel which has come back . project manager: okay . yeah this is cool . maybe we can include that also . previous previous channel button . so we have like channel button , the previous channel button , the volume button , plus a mute button , and uh just the the traditional on off button . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: and uh and of course the channel changing buttons . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . i i talk about that , yeah ? user interface: how should they how should we implement that ? because uh could be numerical only or could be also incremental . project manager: yeah . incremental definitely because zapping you you switch them . industrial designer: user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: let 's say that we can do something like that . this is uh incremental , but once you press it for a long time , you go five by five . project manager: we go faster ? industrial designer: to go fa to go faster . project manager: mm . user interface: mm . it 's an interesting idea , that if you press it for a long time it does something else , in general . so if you you have your ten buttons for the for the numeric the numerical buttons and you have instead of having just one memory industrial designer: yeah . marketing: user interface: you have if you press them for a long time no . does n't work does it . project manager: maybe we should have also a digit button user interface: maybe we should have a complete keyboard and just type console commands . project manager: industrial designer: project manager: yeah . user interface: change channel to eight . project manager: maybe we have also to have digits or only incremental . user interface: no . project manager: i dunno bec because if you have the user interface: well if it 's useful like if if you want to change between three channels for example then you h you can not you can not can not work with just memory being incremental . project manager: uh . yeah . because you have your previous channel button if you have incremental only it 's not uh it is n't worth it because the previous channel is eith either minus one or plus one . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: so i think we need also digits . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: maybe we we can make very obvious the channel and volume button button and smaller button down there with the the digits . user interface: yeah when you zap usually you will have to press the same button all the time project manager: yeah . user interface: and industrial designer: or we can do something like that . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we can design the remote control to have access . you know some remote control have uh protection marketing: user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and so you you y project manager: yeah . user interface: hey i just thought this thing industrial designer: you user interface: there is a i mean you know there is are some with a wheel like this . instead of having the up down buttons for uh you can have the wheel . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , a kind of joystick . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . maybe we can have a wheel for incremental . user interface: project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: so have a wheel for incremental , have the digits uh on the lower side that can be closed so as you say protected , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh yeah i think this is the basi user interface: on the lower side i think it you have to turn it . project manager: and do we do we have a user interface: no ? if we do that . industrial designer: or a or a ball , yeah , not a a wheel but a ball , and you say uh to project manager: no , a wheel is better . user interface: yeah . project manager: i would say the wheel is better . user interface: because of that project manager: what is the expert of uh industrial designer: yeah . user interface: the channels change one by one . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so you have to the user has to like to should feel the the the discrete sense a bit . industrial designer: yeah , the project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . that 's a good idea . user interface: yeah . project manager: well also we have to decide uh so it should be lightening in the dark i think because most people lost their remote control . industrial designer: 's quite it 's quite easy we do that w with back light on the on the wheel . project manager: okay . marketing: user interface: yeah . even if i l_e_d_ uh or a if if it 's the lcd feature uh industrial designer: a blue a blue l_e_d_ and we sell that um . project manager: yeah , user interface: whatever , yeah . project manager: and do we put an lcd display ? marketing: user interface: yeah . project manager: because it was important for young customers if you remember . user interface: i think it 's only put on if cou have multi function . if you do not multi function then there is no p point in having lcd . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: just increase the cost . project manager: okay . user interface: the user does not have an advantage really . project manager: so no lcd ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: hmm . project manager: and so no speech as well because it w it would delay too much the development process user interface: well if it 's going to delay yeah industrial designer: okay . user interface: but uh it will be cool . it would . because a user could say c_n_n_ for example and it would go c_n_n_ . mm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . that would be cool . but eight months is really long user interface: yeah . project manager: and maybe we can just uh industrial designer: ten years project manager: user interface: project manager: okay . so um i i will uh i will so i we will move to next meeting so in after the lunch break uh here are the individual uh action uh you are required to do industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: but you will be uh recalled to the actions by uh email i think but you can take notes if you if you want but well the instruction will be sent . so thank you for uh your suggestion industrial designer: okay . project manager: and i i will make a summary of that meeting that i will put in the shared folder you ca n't see industrial designer: okay . okay . marketing: project manager: and uh and then you will um you will be able to to see what has been uh has been said on on this meeting and and what has been decided . uh maybe for next meeting uh send me your presentation before by email so that we can see them uh altogether . that would be easier . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: what is the folder that you put yours in ? and did it it did work ? marketing: no . project manager: no it did not work . marketing: no no . project manager: she send it to me by email . user interface: ah yeah . mm . marketing: i dunno , i dunno it . user interface: okay . project manager: so maybe this is better , to send it by email . okay ? user interface: okay what is your email ? project manager: so yeah i i 'm it 's in the first uh email so i 'm participant one at ami user interface: at participant one . okay . project manager: uh where is that , it 's here . participant one at ami . okay . so see you after lunch break . user interface: well during lunch break actually . marketing: 'kay thank you . user interface: so next time we should have a fight . project manager: user interface: how about uh management or something . who happens to be your friend . project manager: user interface: { gap }

project manager considered easy-to-use and easy-to-find as the two main frustrations in designing remote controls . but at the same time , such frustrations may pronounce a serious competitive advantage for the project without making too complex stuff or using too much time to develop .

summarize the meeting </s> professor b: ok so uh today we 're looking at a number of uh things we 're trying and uh fortunately for listeners to this uh we lost some of it 's visual but um got tables in front of us . um what is what does combo mean ? phd c: so combo is um a system where we have these features that go through a network and then this same string of features but low - pass filtered with the low - pass filter used in the msg features . and so these low - pass filtered goes through m eh another mlp and then the linear output of these two mlp 's are combined just by adding the values and then there is this klt . um the output is used as uh features as well . professor b: um so let me try to restate this and see if i have it right . there is uh there is the features uh there 's the ogi features and then um those features um go through a contextual uh l l let 's take this bottom arr one pointed to by the bottom arrow . um those features go through a contextualized klt . then these features also uh get um low - pass filtered phd c: yeah . yeah so yeah i could perhaps draw this on the blackboard professor b: sure . yeah . yeah . phd c: yeah . phd d: the graph , yeah another one . professor b: yeah , that 's good . phd c: professor b: so phd c: so we have these features from ogi that goes through the three paths . professor b: yeah . three , ok . phd c: the first is a klt using several frames of the features . professor b: yeah . yeah . phd c: the second path is uh mlp also using nine frames several frames of features professor b: yeah . uh - huh . phd c: the third path is this low - pass filter . professor b: uh - huh . phd c: uh , mlp professor b: aha ! aha ! phd c: adding the outputs just like in the second propose the the proposal from for the first evaluation . professor b: yeah ? yeah . yeah . phd c: and then the klt and then the two together again . professor b: no , the klt . and those two together . that 's it . phd d: two htk . professor b: ok so that 's that 's this bottom one . phd c: um . so this is yeah professor b: and so uh and then the the the one at the top and i presume these things that uh are in yellow are in yellow because overall they 're the best ? phd c: yeah that 's the reason , yeah . professor b: oh let 's focus on them then so what 's the block diagram for the one above it ? phd c: for the f the f first yellow line you mean ? professor b: yeah . phd c: yeah so it 's uh basically s the same except that we do n't have this uh low - pass filtering so we have only two streams . phd d: step . phd c: well . there 's there 's no low low - pass processing used as additional feature stream . professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd c: um professor b: do you e um they mentioned made some uh when i was on the phone with sunil they they mentioned some weighting scheme that was used to evaluate all of these numbers . phd c: yeah . uh actually the way things seems to um well it 's uh forty percent for ti - digit , sixty for all the speechdat - cars , well all these languages . ehm the well match is forty , medium thirty five and high mismatch twenty - five . yeah . professor b: um and we do n't have the ti - digits part yet ? phd c: uh , no . professor b: ok . phd c: but yeah . generally what you observe with ti - digits is that the result are very close whatever the the system . professor b: ok . and so have you put all these numbers together into a single number representing that ? phd c: yeah . professor b: i mean not phd c: uh not yet . professor b: ok so that should be pretty easy to do and that would be good phd c: no . mmm yeah , yeah . professor b: then we could compare the two and say what was better . phd c: mmm . yeah . professor b: um and how does this compare to the numbers oh so ogi two is just the top top row ? phd d: yeah . phd c: so yeah to actually ogi two is the the baseline with the ogi features but this is not exactly the result that they have because they 've they 're still made some changes in the features professor b: ok . phd c: and well but uh actually our results are better than their results . um i do n't know by how much because they did not send us the new results professor b: ok . phd c: uh professor b: uh ok so the one one place where it looks like we 're messing things up a bit is in the highly mismatched italian . phd c: yeah . yeah . professor b: an phd c: yeah there is something funny happening here because yeah . professor b: yeah . phd c: but there are thirty - six and then sometimes we are we are we are around forty - two and professor b: now up phd c: but professor b: uh so one of the ideas that you had mentioned last time was having a a second um silence detection . phd c: yeah . so there are some results here phd d: for the italian . phd c: uh so the third and the fifth line of the table phd d: for this one . professor b: so filt is what that is ? phd c: filt , yeah phd d: yeah . phd c: um yeah so it seems f for the the well match and mismatched condition it 's uh it brings something . uh but uh actually apparently there are there 's no room left for any silence detector at the server side because of the delay . uh well professor b: oh we ca n't do it . oh ok . phd c: no . phd d: for that for that we professor b: oh . phd c: uh professor b: too bad . good idea , but ca n't do it . phd c: yeah . professor b: ok . phd c: except i do n't know because they i think they are still working well . professor b: uh - huh . phd c: uh t two days ago they were still working on this trying to reduce the delay of the silence detector so but yeah if we had time perhaps we could try to find uh some kind of compromise between the delay that 's on the handset and on the server side . perhaps try to reduce the delay on the handset and but well hmm for the moment they have this large delay on the the feature computation and so we do n't professor b: ok . so alright so for now at least that 's not there you have some results with low - pass filter cepstrum does n't have a huge effect but it but it looks like it you know maybe could help in a couple places . phd c: i th professor b: uh little bit . phd c: yeah . professor b: um and um um yeah and uh let 's see what else did we have in there ? uh i guess it makes a l um at this point this is i i guess i should probably look at these others a little bit uh and you you yellowed these out uh but uh uh oh i see yeah that that one you ca n't use because of the delay . those look pretty good . um let 's see that one well even the just the the second row does n't look that bad right ? that 's just uh yeah ? phd c: yep . professor b: and and that looks like an interesting one too . phd d: mmm yeah . professor b: uh phd c: actually the yeah the second line is uh pretty much like the first line in yellow except that we do n't have this klt on the first on the left part of the diagram . we just have the features as they are . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: um professor b: yeah . yeah so when we do this weighted measure we should compare the two cuz it might even come out better . and it 's it 's it 's a little slightly simpler . phd c: mm - hmm . yeah . professor b: so so there 's so i i would put that one also as a as a maybe . uh and it yeah and it 's actually does does significantly better on the uh uh highly mismatched italian , so s and little worse on the mis on the mm case , but uh well yeah it 's worse than a few things phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so uh let 's see how that c that c c see how that comes out on their their measure and are are we running this uh for ti - digits or uh phd c: yeah . professor b: now is ti di is is that part of the result that they get for the uh development th the results that they 're supposed to get at the end of end of the month , the ti - digits are there also ? phd c: yeah . yeah . it 's included , yeah . professor b: oh ok . ok . and see what else there is here . um oh i see the one i was looking down here at the the o the row below the lower yellowed one . uh that 's uh that 's with the reduced uh klt size reduced dimensionality . phd c: mm - hmm ? yeah . yeah . professor b: what happens there is it 's around the same and so you could reduce the dimension as you were saying before a bit perhaps . phd c: yeah , it 's it 's significantly worse well but mm - hmm . professor b: it 's significantly worse it 's it 's uh it 's it 's mostly worse . phd c: exc - except for the hm phd d: for many a mismatch it 's worse . phd c: but professor b: yeah . but it is little . i mean not not by a huge amount , i do n't know . what are what are the sizes of any of these sets , i i 'm i 'm sure you told me before , but i 've forgotten . so you know how many words are in uh one of these test sets ? phd c: uh phd d: i do n't remember . professor b: about ? phd c: um it 's it depends well the well matched is generally larger than the other sets and i think it 's around two thousand or three thousand words perhaps , at least . phd d: ye but words well word i do n't know . phd c: hmm ? the words , yeah . s sentences . phd d: sentences . phd c: some sets have five hundred sentences , so . phd d: yeah . professor b: so the so the sets so the test sets are between five hundred and two thousand sentences , let 's say phd c: mmm . professor b: and each sentence on the average has four or five digits or is it most of them longer or phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah for the italian even seven digits y more or less phd c: it it d seven digits . phd d: but sometime the sentence have only one digit and sometime uh like uh the number of uh credit cards , something like that . professor b: mm - hmm . right , so between one and sixteen . see the i mean the reason i 'm asking is is is we have all these small differences and i do n't know how seriously to take them , right ? phd c: mm - hmm ? professor b: so uh i if if you had uh just you know to give an example , if you had uh um if you had a thousand words then uh a a tenth of a percent would just be one word , phd c: yeah . professor b: right ? so so it would n't mean anything . phd d: yeah . professor b: oh phd c: yeah . professor b: um so um yeah it be kind of i 'd kind of like to know what the sizes of these test sets were actually . phd c: yeah . phd d: the size that we have ? phd c: we could we could run run some kind of significance tests professor b: yeah since these well also just to know the numbers , phd c: or phd d: yeah . professor b: right . so these these are word error rates phd c: yeah . professor b: so this is on how many words . phd c: yep . phd d: yeah we have the result that the output of the htk professor b: yeah . phd d: the number of of sentences , no it 's the number is n't . phd c: yeah sure sure . yeah sure . professor b: yeah so anyway if you could just mail out what those numbers are and then then that that be great . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor b: um what else is there here ? um see the second second from the bottom it says sil , but this is some different kind of silence or thing or what was that ? phd c: uh phd d: it the the output silence of the mlp . phd c: oh yeah i see . phd d: it 's only one small experiment to know what happened . to apply also to in include also the the silence of the mlp we have the fifty - six form and the silence to pick up the silence and we include those . professor b: yes . uh - huh , uh - huh . the silence plus the klt output ? oh so you 're only using the silence . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah , because when we apply the klt phd c: no they 're i think there is this silence in addition to the um klt outputs professor b: no . phd d: in addition , yes . phd c: it is because we we we just keep uh we do n't keep all the dimensions after the klt phd d: in addition t phd c: and yeah . phd d: and we not s we are not sure if we pick we have the silence . phd c: so we try to add the silence also in addition to the these twenty - eight dimensions . professor b: i see . ok . and what and what 's ogi forty - five ? the bottom one there ? phd c: uh it 's o it 's ogi two , it 's so the th it 's the features from the first line phd d: it 's in fact ogi two . professor b: s phd c: and yeah . professor b: right , but i mean what 's the what does the last row mean ? phd c: so it 's uh basically this but without the klt on the from the left path . professor b: i thought that was the one i thought that was the second row . so what 's the difference between the second phd c: uh the second line you do n't have this combo stuff so you just professor b: oh . phd c: uh professor b: so this is like the second line but with with the combo stuff . phd c: yeah . yeah . phd d: and with the all the output of the combo . professor b: ok . yeah . phd c: yeah . phd d: uh professor b: ok , so alright so it looks to me i guess the same given that we have to take the filt ones out of the the running because of this delay problem so it looks to me like the ones you said i agree are are the ones to look at phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: but i just would add the the the second row one phd c: yeah . professor b: and then um if we can um phd c: mmm . professor b: oh yeah also when when they 're using this weighting scheme of forty , thirty - five , twenty - five is that on the percentages or on the raw errors ? i guess it 's probably on the percentages right ? phd c: uh i guess , yeah . professor b: yeah ok . phd c: i guess , yeah . mmm . professor b: alright . phd c: it 's not clear here . professor b: ok . maybe maybe they 'll argue about it . um ok so if we can know what how many words are in each and then um dave uh dave promised to get us something tomorrow which will be there as far as they 've gotten friday phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: and then we 'll operate with that phd c: yeah . professor b: and uh how long did it i guess if we 're not doing all these things if we 're only doing um um i guess since this is development data it 's legitimate to do more than one , right ? i mean ordinarily if in final test data you do n't want to do several and and take the best phd c: yeah . mmm . professor b: that 's that 's that 's not proper but if this is development data we could still look at a couple . phd c: yeah . we can yeah . sure . but we have to decide i mean we have to fix the system on this d on this data , to choose the best professor b: yeah . i right . phd c: and these professor b: but the question is when when do we fix the system , phd c: but we could professor b: do we fix the system uh tomorrow or do we fix the system on tuesday ? phd c: it d professor b: i yeah , ok except that we do have to write it up . phd c: i think we fixed on tuesday , yeah . yeah . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: also , so phd c: yeah . yeah . professor b: um phd c: uh yeah well . well basically it 's this with perhaps some kind of printing and some some other @ @ . professor b: right so maybe what we do is we we we uh as soon as we get the data from them we start the training and so forth phd c: yeah but mm - hmm . professor b: but we start the write - up right away because as you say there there 's only minor differences between these . phd c: i think you we could we could start soon , yeah . professor b: yeah . phd c: write up something . professor b: yeah , and and i i would you know , i would i 'd kind of like to see it phd c: um yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: maybe i can i can edit it a bit uh sure . the my what in this si i in this situation is my forte which is english . phd c: yeah . professor b: uh so phd c: mmm . professor b: uh h yeah . have y have you seen alt d do they have a format for how they want the system descriptions or anything ? phd c: uh not really . professor b: ok . phd c: um there is the format of the table which is quite impressive . professor b: yeah ? uh i see . yes , for those who are listening to this and not looking at it uh it 's not really that impressive , it 's just tiny . it 's all these little categories set a , set b , set c , multi - condition , clean . uh no mitigation . wow . do you know what no what no mitigation means here ? phd c: um it should be the the problem with the error channel error professor b: oh that 's probably the phd c: or professor b: this is probably channel error stuff phd c: well , you professor b: huh ? oh this is i right , it says right above here channel channel error resilience , phd c: yeah . yeah . professor b: yeah . so recognition performance is just the top part , actually . uh and they have yes , split between seen databases and non - seen so basically between development and and evaluation . phd c: yeah . professor b: and so right , it 's presumed there 's all sorts of tuning that 's gone on on the see what they call seen databases and there wo n't be tuning for the uh unseen . multi - condition multi - condition . so they have looks like they have uh uh phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so they splitting up between the ti - digits and everything else , i see . so the everything else is the speechdat - car , that 's the multi multilingual phd c: yeah , so it 's not divided between languages you mean or professor b: well , it is . phd c: it just professor b: it is , but there 's also there 's these tables over here for the for the ti - digits and these tables over here for the car data which is which is i guess all the multilingual stuff phd c: oh yeah . professor b: and then uh there 's they also split up between multi - condition and clean only . phd c: yeah . for ti - digits . professor b: yes . phd c: yeah , actually yeah . for the ti - digits they want to train on clean and on noisy professor b: yeah . phd c: and yeah . professor b: so we 're doing that also , i guess . phd c: uh yeah . but uh we actually do we have the features ? yeah . for the clean ti - digits but we did not test it yet . uh the clean training stuff . professor b: ok . phd c: mmm . professor b: well anyway , sounds like there 'll be a lot to do just to work with our partners to fill out the tables over the next uh next few days phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: yes . professor b: i guess they have to send it out let 's see the thirty - first is uh uh wednesday and i think the it has to be there by some hour uh european time on wednesday phd c: hmm - hmm . professor b: so i think basically phd d: we lost time uh wednesday maybe because that the difference in the time may be is a long different of the time . professor b: e excuse me ? phd d: maybe the thursday the twelfth of the night of the thurs - thirty - one is is not valid in europe . phd c: yeah . phd d: we do n't know is happening . professor b: yes , so i mean i think we have to actually get it done tuesday phd d: tuesday . professor b: right because i i think phd c: yeah , well . professor b: uh uh phd c: except if if it 's the thirty - one at midnight or i do n't know we can still do some work on wednesday morning . professor b: yeah well . w i is but is is it midni i thought it was actually something like five pm on phd c: yeah , well . yeah . phd d: yeah . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: was like i thought it was five pm or something , i did n't think it was midnight . i thought they said they wanted everything by phd d: yeah , five pm . professor b: well , so five pm their time is is if phd d: not five pm , three pm . professor b: three pm . phd d: three pm . professor b: alright , that 's six in the morning here . phd c: it 's d no . phd d: uh no three three a - three pm ? phd c: no , we are wondering about the the the hour that we have to eh i do n't know if it 's three pm it 's phd d: oh yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . three pm here is in europe midnight . phd c: yeah , it 's it 's midnight but professor b: yes , yes , but i did n't think it was midnight that it was due , i thought it was due at some hour during the day like five pm or something . phd d: oh ok . mm - hmm . mm - hmm , professor b: in which case phd d: maybe . professor b: so i i uh well we should look but my assumption is that we basically have to be done tuesday . um so then next thursday we can sort of have a little aftermath phd d: yeah . professor b: but then then we 'll actually have the new data which is the german and the danish phd c: yeah . professor b: but that really will be much less work because uh the system will be fixed phd c: yeah . professor b: so all we 'll do is take whatever they have and and uh and run it through the process . phd c: yeah . professor b: uh we wo n't be changing the training on anything phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so there 'll be no new training , there 'll just be new htk runs , so that 's means in some sense we can kind of relax from this after after tuesday and and uh maybe next meeting we can start talking a little bit about where we want to go from here uh in terms of uh the research . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: um you know what things uh did you think of when you were uh doing this process that uh you just did n't really have time to adequately work on uh uh so phd c: mm - hmm . yeah . professor b: what ? grad a: oh , stephane always has these great ideas and oh , but uh we do n't have time . phd c: sure . professor b: yeah . grad a: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd c: i 'm not sure these are great ideas . professor b: but they 're ideas . yeah ? oh , that was good . phd c: yeah . grad a: yeah . professor b: and and uh also it 's still true that uh i think it 's true that that we we at least got fairly consistent i improved results by running uh the uh neural net transformation in parallel with the features phd c: but professor b: rather than uh in sequence which was was your suggestion and that that that seems to have been borne out . phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: the fact that none of these are are you know , enormous is is is not too surprising most improvements are n't enormous and uh phd c: yeah . professor b: some of them are but uh i mean you have something really really wrong and you fix it you can get big and really enormous improvements phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: but uh um cuz our best improvements over the years that we 've gotten from finding bugs , but anyway ok well i i think i see where we are and everybody knows what they 're doing and is there is there anything else we should talk about or or are we done ? phd c: mm - hmm . i think it 's ok um . we so basically we will i think we 'll try to to focus on these three architectures and and perhaps i was thinking also a fourth one with just just a single klt because we did not really test that professor b: uh - huh . phd c: removing all these klt 's and putting one single klt at the end . professor b: yeah , i mean that would be pretty low maintenance to try it . phd c: yeah . professor b: uh if you can fit it in . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: oh i have yeah i do have one other piece of information which uh i should tell people outside of this group too uh i do n't know if we 're gon na need it uh but uh jeff up at the uh university of washington has uh gotten a hold of a uh uh some kind of server farm of uh of ten uh uh multiprocessor uh ibm machines rs six thousands phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: and and uh so i think each one is four processors or something or i do n't know , eight hundred megahertz or something and there 's four processors in a box and there 's ten boxes and there 's some kind of ti so if you know he 's got a lot of processing power and um we 'd have to schedule it but if we have some big jobs and we wan na wan na wan na run them he 's he 's offering it . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so . it 's uh when he was here eh uh he he used i not only every machine here but every machine on campus as far as i could tell , so so in some ways he just got his payback , but uh again i i do n't know if we 'll end up with if we 're gon na be cpu limited on anything that we 're doing in this group phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: but but if if we are that 's an offer . ok well uh you guys doing great stuff so that 's that that 's really neat and uh we 'll uh uh g do n't think we need to uh um oh well the other thing i guess that i will say is that uh the digits that we 're gon na record momentarily is starting to get are starting to get into a pretty good size collection and um in addition to the speechdat stuff we will have those to work with really pretty soon now so that 's that 's another source of data . um which is s under somewhat better control and that we can we can make measurements of the room the uh that you know if we feel there 's other measurements we do n't have that we 'd like to have we can make them and uh dave and i were just talking about that a little while ago so uh that 's another another possibility for this this kind of work . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: k , uh if nobody has anything else maybe we should go around do do our digits do our digits duty . ok . ok i 'll start . uh , let me say that again . ok . i guess we 're done .

the meeting participants discuss results from experiments and challenges that the model was facing . there was a significant server side delay , so they could not accommodate silence detection . members noted that reducing model dimensions had a detrimental effect on model performance . the professor wanted to know the size of words that the word error rate was calculated on and explained that there would be no new training . from this point , they can start talking about future directions and work on fixing the system .

summarize the discussion on looking at feature streams </s> professor b: ok so uh today we 're looking at a number of uh things we 're trying and uh fortunately for listeners to this uh we lost some of it 's visual but um got tables in front of us . um what is what does combo mean ? phd c: so combo is um a system where we have these features that go through a network and then this same string of features but low - pass filtered with the low - pass filter used in the msg features . and so these low - pass filtered goes through m eh another mlp and then the linear output of these two mlp 's are combined just by adding the values and then there is this klt . um the output is used as uh features as well . professor b: um so let me try to restate this and see if i have it right . there is uh there is the features uh there 's the ogi features and then um those features um go through a contextual uh l l let 's take this bottom arr one pointed to by the bottom arrow . um those features go through a contextualized klt . then these features also uh get um low - pass filtered phd c: yeah . yeah so yeah i could perhaps draw this on the blackboard professor b: sure . yeah . yeah . phd c: yeah . phd d: the graph , yeah another one . professor b: yeah , that 's good . phd c: professor b: so phd c: so we have these features from ogi that goes through the three paths . professor b: yeah . three , ok . phd c: the first is a klt using several frames of the features . professor b: yeah . yeah . phd c: the second path is uh mlp also using nine frames several frames of features professor b: yeah . uh - huh . phd c: the third path is this low - pass filter . professor b: uh - huh . phd c: uh , mlp professor b: aha ! aha ! phd c: adding the outputs just like in the second propose the the proposal from for the first evaluation . professor b: yeah ? yeah . yeah . phd c: and then the klt and then the two together again . professor b: no , the klt . and those two together . that 's it . phd d: two htk . professor b: ok so that 's that 's this bottom one . phd c: um . so this is yeah professor b: and so uh and then the the the one at the top and i presume these things that uh are in yellow are in yellow because overall they 're the best ? phd c: yeah that 's the reason , yeah . professor b: oh let 's focus on them then so what 's the block diagram for the one above it ? phd c: for the f the f first yellow line you mean ? professor b: yeah . phd c: yeah so it 's uh basically s the same except that we do n't have this uh low - pass filtering so we have only two streams . phd d: step . phd c: well . there 's there 's no low low - pass processing used as additional feature stream . professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd c: um professor b: do you e um they mentioned made some uh when i was on the phone with sunil they they mentioned some weighting scheme that was used to evaluate all of these numbers . phd c: yeah . uh actually the way things seems to um well it 's uh forty percent for ti - digit , sixty for all the speechdat - cars , well all these languages . ehm the well match is forty , medium thirty five and high mismatch twenty - five . yeah . professor b: um and we do n't have the ti - digits part yet ? phd c: uh , no . professor b: ok . phd c: but yeah . generally what you observe with ti - digits is that the result are very close whatever the the system . professor b: ok . and so have you put all these numbers together into a single number representing that ? phd c: yeah . professor b: i mean not phd c: uh not yet . professor b: ok so that should be pretty easy to do and that would be good phd c: no . mmm yeah , yeah . professor b: then we could compare the two and say what was better . phd c: mmm . yeah . professor b: um and how does this compare to the numbers oh so ogi two is just the top top row ? phd d: yeah . phd c: so yeah to actually ogi two is the the baseline with the ogi features but this is not exactly the result that they have because they 've they 're still made some changes in the features professor b: ok . phd c: and well but uh actually our results are better than their results . um i do n't know by how much because they did not send us the new results professor b: ok . phd c: uh professor b: uh ok so the one one place where it looks like we 're messing things up a bit is in the highly mismatched italian . phd c: yeah . yeah . professor b: an phd c: yeah there is something funny happening here because yeah . professor b: yeah . phd c: but there are thirty - six and then sometimes we are we are we are around forty - two and professor b: now up phd c: but professor b: uh so one of the ideas that you had mentioned last time was having a a second um silence detection . phd c: yeah . so there are some results here phd d: for the italian . phd c: uh so the third and the fifth line of the table phd d: for this one . professor b: so filt is what that is ? phd c: filt , yeah phd d: yeah . phd c: um yeah so it seems f for the the well match and mismatched condition it 's uh it brings something . uh but uh actually apparently there are there 's no room left for any silence detector at the server side because of the delay . uh well professor b: oh we ca n't do it . oh ok . phd c: no . phd d: for that for that we professor b: oh . phd c: uh professor b: too bad . good idea , but ca n't do it . phd c: yeah . professor b: ok . phd c: except i do n't know because they i think they are still working well . professor b: uh - huh . phd c: uh t two days ago they were still working on this trying to reduce the delay of the silence detector so but yeah if we had time perhaps we could try to find uh some kind of compromise between the delay that 's on the handset and on the server side . perhaps try to reduce the delay on the handset and but well hmm for the moment they have this large delay on the the feature computation and so we do n't professor b: ok . so alright so for now at least that 's not there you have some results with low - pass filter cepstrum does n't have a huge effect but it but it looks like it you know maybe could help in a couple places . phd c: i th professor b: uh little bit . phd c: yeah . professor b: um and um um yeah and uh let 's see what else did we have in there ? uh i guess it makes a l um at this point this is i i guess i should probably look at these others a little bit uh and you you yellowed these out uh but uh uh oh i see yeah that that one you ca n't use because of the delay . those look pretty good . um let 's see that one well even the just the the second row does n't look that bad right ? that 's just uh yeah ? phd c: yep . professor b: and and that looks like an interesting one too . phd d: mmm yeah . professor b: uh phd c: actually the yeah the second line is uh pretty much like the first line in yellow except that we do n't have this klt on the first on the left part of the diagram . we just have the features as they are . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: um professor b: yeah . yeah so when we do this weighted measure we should compare the two cuz it might even come out better . and it 's it 's it 's a little slightly simpler . phd c: mm - hmm . yeah . professor b: so so there 's so i i would put that one also as a as a maybe . uh and it yeah and it 's actually does does significantly better on the uh uh highly mismatched italian , so s and little worse on the mis on the mm case , but uh well yeah it 's worse than a few things phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so uh let 's see how that c that c c see how that comes out on their their measure and are are we running this uh for ti - digits or uh phd c: yeah . professor b: now is ti di is is that part of the result that they get for the uh development th the results that they 're supposed to get at the end of end of the month , the ti - digits are there also ? phd c: yeah . yeah . it 's included , yeah . professor b: oh ok . ok . and see what else there is here . um oh i see the one i was looking down here at the the o the row below the lower yellowed one . uh that 's uh that 's with the reduced uh klt size reduced dimensionality . phd c: mm - hmm ? yeah . yeah . professor b: what happens there is it 's around the same and so you could reduce the dimension as you were saying before a bit perhaps . phd c: yeah , it 's it 's significantly worse well but mm - hmm . professor b: it 's significantly worse it 's it 's uh it 's it 's mostly worse . phd c: exc - except for the hm phd d: for many a mismatch it 's worse . phd c: but professor b: yeah . but it is little . i mean not not by a huge amount , i do n't know . what are what are the sizes of any of these sets , i i 'm i 'm sure you told me before , but i 've forgotten . so you know how many words are in uh one of these test sets ? phd c: uh phd d: i do n't remember . professor b: about ? phd c: um it 's it depends well the well matched is generally larger than the other sets and i think it 's around two thousand or three thousand words perhaps , at least . phd d: ye but words well word i do n't know . phd c: hmm ? the words , yeah . s sentences . phd d: sentences . phd c: some sets have five hundred sentences , so . phd d: yeah . professor b: so the so the sets so the test sets are between five hundred and two thousand sentences , let 's say phd c: mmm . professor b: and each sentence on the average has four or five digits or is it most of them longer or phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah for the italian even seven digits y more or less phd c: it it d seven digits . phd d: but sometime the sentence have only one digit and sometime uh like uh the number of uh credit cards , something like that . professor b: mm - hmm . right , so between one and sixteen . see the i mean the reason i 'm asking is is is we have all these small differences and i do n't know how seriously to take them , right ? phd c: mm - hmm ? professor b: so uh i if if you had uh just you know to give an example , if you had uh um if you had a thousand words then uh a a tenth of a percent would just be one word , phd c: yeah . professor b: right ? so so it would n't mean anything . phd d: yeah . professor b: oh phd c: yeah . professor b: um so um yeah it be kind of i 'd kind of like to know what the sizes of these test sets were actually . phd c: yeah . phd d: the size that we have ? phd c: we could we could run run some kind of significance tests professor b: yeah since these well also just to know the numbers , phd c: or phd d: yeah . professor b: right . so these these are word error rates phd c: yeah . professor b: so this is on how many words . phd c: yep . phd d: yeah we have the result that the output of the htk professor b: yeah . phd d: the number of of sentences , no it 's the number is n't . phd c: yeah sure sure . yeah sure . professor b: yeah so anyway if you could just mail out what those numbers are and then then that that be great . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor b: um what else is there here ? um see the second second from the bottom it says sil , but this is some different kind of silence or thing or what was that ? phd c: uh phd d: it the the output silence of the mlp . phd c: oh yeah i see . phd d: it 's only one small experiment to know what happened . to apply also to in include also the the silence of the mlp we have the fifty - six form and the silence to pick up the silence and we include those . professor b: yes . uh - huh , uh - huh . the silence plus the klt output ? oh so you 're only using the silence . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah , because when we apply the klt phd c: no they 're i think there is this silence in addition to the um klt outputs professor b: no . phd d: in addition , yes . phd c: it is because we we we just keep uh we do n't keep all the dimensions after the klt phd d: in addition t phd c: and yeah . phd d: and we not s we are not sure if we pick we have the silence . phd c: so we try to add the silence also in addition to the these twenty - eight dimensions . professor b: i see . ok . and what and what 's ogi forty - five ? the bottom one there ? phd c: uh it 's o it 's ogi two , it 's so the th it 's the features from the first line phd d: it 's in fact ogi two . professor b: s phd c: and yeah . professor b: right , but i mean what 's the what does the last row mean ? phd c: so it 's uh basically this but without the klt on the from the left path . professor b: i thought that was the one i thought that was the second row . so what 's the difference between the second phd c: uh the second line you do n't have this combo stuff so you just professor b: oh . phd c: uh professor b: so this is like the second line but with with the combo stuff . phd c: yeah . yeah . phd d: and with the all the output of the combo . professor b: ok . yeah . phd c: yeah . phd d: uh professor b: ok , so alright so it looks to me i guess the same given that we have to take the filt ones out of the the running because of this delay problem so it looks to me like the ones you said i agree are are the ones to look at phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: but i just would add the the the second row one phd c: yeah . professor b: and then um if we can um phd c: mmm . professor b: oh yeah also when when they 're using this weighting scheme of forty , thirty - five , twenty - five is that on the percentages or on the raw errors ? i guess it 's probably on the percentages right ? phd c: uh i guess , yeah . professor b: yeah ok . phd c: i guess , yeah . mmm . professor b: alright . phd c: it 's not clear here . professor b: ok . maybe maybe they 'll argue about it . um ok so if we can know what how many words are in each and then um dave uh dave promised to get us something tomorrow which will be there as far as they 've gotten friday phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: and then we 'll operate with that phd c: yeah . professor b: and uh how long did it i guess if we 're not doing all these things if we 're only doing um um i guess since this is development data it 's legitimate to do more than one , right ? i mean ordinarily if in final test data you do n't want to do several and and take the best phd c: yeah . mmm . professor b: that 's that 's that 's not proper but if this is development data we could still look at a couple . phd c: yeah . we can yeah . sure . but we have to decide i mean we have to fix the system on this d on this data , to choose the best professor b: yeah . i right . phd c: and these professor b: but the question is when when do we fix the system , phd c: but we could professor b: do we fix the system uh tomorrow or do we fix the system on tuesday ? phd c: it d professor b: i yeah , ok except that we do have to write it up . phd c: i think we fixed on tuesday , yeah . yeah . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: also , so phd c: yeah . yeah . professor b: um phd c: uh yeah well . well basically it 's this with perhaps some kind of printing and some some other @ @ . professor b: right so maybe what we do is we we we uh as soon as we get the data from them we start the training and so forth phd c: yeah but mm - hmm . professor b: but we start the write - up right away because as you say there there 's only minor differences between these . phd c: i think you we could we could start soon , yeah . professor b: yeah . phd c: write up something . professor b: yeah , and and i i would you know , i would i 'd kind of like to see it phd c: um yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: maybe i can i can edit it a bit uh sure . the my what in this si i in this situation is my forte which is english . phd c: yeah . professor b: uh so phd c: mmm . professor b: uh h yeah . have y have you seen alt d do they have a format for how they want the system descriptions or anything ? phd c: uh not really . professor b: ok . phd c: um there is the format of the table which is quite impressive . professor b: yeah ? uh i see . yes , for those who are listening to this and not looking at it uh it 's not really that impressive , it 's just tiny . it 's all these little categories set a , set b , set c , multi - condition , clean . uh no mitigation . wow . do you know what no what no mitigation means here ? phd c: um it should be the the problem with the error channel error professor b: oh that 's probably the phd c: or professor b: this is probably channel error stuff phd c: well , you professor b: huh ? oh this is i right , it says right above here channel channel error resilience , phd c: yeah . yeah . professor b: yeah . so recognition performance is just the top part , actually . uh and they have yes , split between seen databases and non - seen so basically between development and and evaluation . phd c: yeah . professor b: and so right , it 's presumed there 's all sorts of tuning that 's gone on on the see what they call seen databases and there wo n't be tuning for the uh unseen . multi - condition multi - condition . so they have looks like they have uh uh phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so they splitting up between the ti - digits and everything else , i see . so the everything else is the speechdat - car , that 's the multi multilingual phd c: yeah , so it 's not divided between languages you mean or professor b: well , it is . phd c: it just professor b: it is , but there 's also there 's these tables over here for the for the ti - digits and these tables over here for the car data which is which is i guess all the multilingual stuff phd c: oh yeah . professor b: and then uh there 's they also split up between multi - condition and clean only . phd c: yeah . for ti - digits . professor b: yes . phd c: yeah , actually yeah . for the ti - digits they want to train on clean and on noisy professor b: yeah . phd c: and yeah . professor b: so we 're doing that also , i guess . phd c: uh yeah . but uh we actually do we have the features ? yeah . for the clean ti - digits but we did not test it yet . uh the clean training stuff . professor b: ok . phd c: mmm . professor b: well anyway , sounds like there 'll be a lot to do just to work with our partners to fill out the tables over the next uh next few days phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: yes . professor b: i guess they have to send it out let 's see the thirty - first is uh uh wednesday and i think the it has to be there by some hour uh european time on wednesday phd c: hmm - hmm . professor b: so i think basically phd d: we lost time uh wednesday maybe because that the difference in the time may be is a long different of the time . professor b: e excuse me ? phd d: maybe the thursday the twelfth of the night of the thurs - thirty - one is is not valid in europe . phd c: yeah . phd d: we do n't know is happening . professor b: yes , so i mean i think we have to actually get it done tuesday phd d: tuesday . professor b: right because i i think phd c: yeah , well . professor b: uh uh phd c: except if if it 's the thirty - one at midnight or i do n't know we can still do some work on wednesday morning . professor b: yeah well . w i is but is is it midni i thought it was actually something like five pm on phd c: yeah , well . yeah . phd d: yeah . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: was like i thought it was five pm or something , i did n't think it was midnight . i thought they said they wanted everything by phd d: yeah , five pm . professor b: well , so five pm their time is is if phd d: not five pm , three pm . professor b: three pm . phd d: three pm . professor b: alright , that 's six in the morning here . phd c: it 's d no . phd d: uh no three three a - three pm ? phd c: no , we are wondering about the the the hour that we have to eh i do n't know if it 's three pm it 's phd d: oh yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . three pm here is in europe midnight . phd c: yeah , it 's it 's midnight but professor b: yes , yes , but i did n't think it was midnight that it was due , i thought it was due at some hour during the day like five pm or something . phd d: oh ok . mm - hmm . mm - hmm , professor b: in which case phd d: maybe . professor b: so i i uh well we should look but my assumption is that we basically have to be done tuesday . um so then next thursday we can sort of have a little aftermath phd d: yeah . professor b: but then then we 'll actually have the new data which is the german and the danish phd c: yeah . professor b: but that really will be much less work because uh the system will be fixed phd c: yeah . professor b: so all we 'll do is take whatever they have and and uh and run it through the process . phd c: yeah . professor b: uh we wo n't be changing the training on anything phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so there 'll be no new training , there 'll just be new htk runs , so that 's means in some sense we can kind of relax from this after after tuesday and and uh maybe next meeting we can start talking a little bit about where we want to go from here uh in terms of uh the research . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: um you know what things uh did you think of when you were uh doing this process that uh you just did n't really have time to adequately work on uh uh so phd c: mm - hmm . yeah . professor b: what ? grad a: oh , stephane always has these great ideas and oh , but uh we do n't have time . phd c: sure . professor b: yeah . grad a: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd c: i 'm not sure these are great ideas . professor b: but they 're ideas . yeah ? oh , that was good . phd c: yeah . grad a: yeah . professor b: and and uh also it 's still true that uh i think it 's true that that we we at least got fairly consistent i improved results by running uh the uh neural net transformation in parallel with the features phd c: but professor b: rather than uh in sequence which was was your suggestion and that that that seems to have been borne out . phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: the fact that none of these are are you know , enormous is is is not too surprising most improvements are n't enormous and uh phd c: yeah . professor b: some of them are but uh i mean you have something really really wrong and you fix it you can get big and really enormous improvements phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: but uh um cuz our best improvements over the years that we 've gotten from finding bugs , but anyway ok well i i think i see where we are and everybody knows what they 're doing and is there is there anything else we should talk about or or are we done ? phd c: mm - hmm . i think it 's ok um . we so basically we will i think we 'll try to to focus on these three architectures and and perhaps i was thinking also a fourth one with just just a single klt because we did not really test that professor b: uh - huh . phd c: removing all these klt 's and putting one single klt at the end . professor b: yeah , i mean that would be pretty low maintenance to try it . phd c: yeah . professor b: uh if you can fit it in . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: oh i have yeah i do have one other piece of information which uh i should tell people outside of this group too uh i do n't know if we 're gon na need it uh but uh jeff up at the uh university of washington has uh gotten a hold of a uh uh some kind of server farm of uh of ten uh uh multiprocessor uh ibm machines rs six thousands phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: and and uh so i think each one is four processors or something or i do n't know , eight hundred megahertz or something and there 's four processors in a box and there 's ten boxes and there 's some kind of ti so if you know he 's got a lot of processing power and um we 'd have to schedule it but if we have some big jobs and we wan na wan na wan na run them he 's he 's offering it . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so . it 's uh when he was here eh uh he he used i not only every machine here but every machine on campus as far as i could tell , so so in some ways he just got his payback , but uh again i i do n't know if we 'll end up with if we 're gon na be cpu limited on anything that we 're doing in this group phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: but but if if we are that 's an offer . ok well uh you guys doing great stuff so that 's that that 's really neat and uh we 'll uh uh g do n't think we need to uh um oh well the other thing i guess that i will say is that uh the digits that we 're gon na record momentarily is starting to get are starting to get into a pretty good size collection and um in addition to the speechdat stuff we will have those to work with really pretty soon now so that 's that 's another source of data . um which is s under somewhat better control and that we can we can make measurements of the room the uh that you know if we feel there 's other measurements we do n't have that we 'd like to have we can make them and uh dave and i were just talking about that a little while ago so uh that 's another another possibility for this this kind of work . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: k , uh if nobody has anything else maybe we should go around do do our digits do our digits duty . ok . ok i 'll start . uh , let me say that again . ok . i guess we 're done .

the team used ogi features that then passed through a contextualized klt , an mlp , and a low-pass filter . the highly mismatched italian part was still not working well . the team tried using silence detection to improve performance , but the results were not too promising .

what did phd c think about silence detection ? </s> professor b: ok so uh today we 're looking at a number of uh things we 're trying and uh fortunately for listeners to this uh we lost some of it 's visual but um got tables in front of us . um what is what does combo mean ? phd c: so combo is um a system where we have these features that go through a network and then this same string of features but low - pass filtered with the low - pass filter used in the msg features . and so these low - pass filtered goes through m eh another mlp and then the linear output of these two mlp 's are combined just by adding the values and then there is this klt . um the output is used as uh features as well . professor b: um so let me try to restate this and see if i have it right . there is uh there is the features uh there 's the ogi features and then um those features um go through a contextual uh l l let 's take this bottom arr one pointed to by the bottom arrow . um those features go through a contextualized klt . then these features also uh get um low - pass filtered phd c: yeah . yeah so yeah i could perhaps draw this on the blackboard professor b: sure . yeah . yeah . phd c: yeah . phd d: the graph , yeah another one . professor b: yeah , that 's good . phd c: professor b: so phd c: so we have these features from ogi that goes through the three paths . professor b: yeah . three , ok . phd c: the first is a klt using several frames of the features . professor b: yeah . yeah . phd c: the second path is uh mlp also using nine frames several frames of features professor b: yeah . uh - huh . phd c: the third path is this low - pass filter . professor b: uh - huh . phd c: uh , mlp professor b: aha ! aha ! phd c: adding the outputs just like in the second propose the the proposal from for the first evaluation . professor b: yeah ? yeah . yeah . phd c: and then the klt and then the two together again . professor b: no , the klt . and those two together . that 's it . phd d: two htk . professor b: ok so that 's that 's this bottom one . phd c: um . so this is yeah professor b: and so uh and then the the the one at the top and i presume these things that uh are in yellow are in yellow because overall they 're the best ? phd c: yeah that 's the reason , yeah . professor b: oh let 's focus on them then so what 's the block diagram for the one above it ? phd c: for the f the f first yellow line you mean ? professor b: yeah . phd c: yeah so it 's uh basically s the same except that we do n't have this uh low - pass filtering so we have only two streams . phd d: step . phd c: well . there 's there 's no low low - pass processing used as additional feature stream . professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd c: um professor b: do you e um they mentioned made some uh when i was on the phone with sunil they they mentioned some weighting scheme that was used to evaluate all of these numbers . phd c: yeah . uh actually the way things seems to um well it 's uh forty percent for ti - digit , sixty for all the speechdat - cars , well all these languages . ehm the well match is forty , medium thirty five and high mismatch twenty - five . yeah . professor b: um and we do n't have the ti - digits part yet ? phd c: uh , no . professor b: ok . phd c: but yeah . generally what you observe with ti - digits is that the result are very close whatever the the system . professor b: ok . and so have you put all these numbers together into a single number representing that ? phd c: yeah . professor b: i mean not phd c: uh not yet . professor b: ok so that should be pretty easy to do and that would be good phd c: no . mmm yeah , yeah . professor b: then we could compare the two and say what was better . phd c: mmm . yeah . professor b: um and how does this compare to the numbers oh so ogi two is just the top top row ? phd d: yeah . phd c: so yeah to actually ogi two is the the baseline with the ogi features but this is not exactly the result that they have because they 've they 're still made some changes in the features professor b: ok . phd c: and well but uh actually our results are better than their results . um i do n't know by how much because they did not send us the new results professor b: ok . phd c: uh professor b: uh ok so the one one place where it looks like we 're messing things up a bit is in the highly mismatched italian . phd c: yeah . yeah . professor b: an phd c: yeah there is something funny happening here because yeah . professor b: yeah . phd c: but there are thirty - six and then sometimes we are we are we are around forty - two and professor b: now up phd c: but professor b: uh so one of the ideas that you had mentioned last time was having a a second um silence detection . phd c: yeah . so there are some results here phd d: for the italian . phd c: uh so the third and the fifth line of the table phd d: for this one . professor b: so filt is what that is ? phd c: filt , yeah phd d: yeah . phd c: um yeah so it seems f for the the well match and mismatched condition it 's uh it brings something . uh but uh actually apparently there are there 's no room left for any silence detector at the server side because of the delay . uh well professor b: oh we ca n't do it . oh ok . phd c: no . phd d: for that for that we professor b: oh . phd c: uh professor b: too bad . good idea , but ca n't do it . phd c: yeah . professor b: ok . phd c: except i do n't know because they i think they are still working well . professor b: uh - huh . phd c: uh t two days ago they were still working on this trying to reduce the delay of the silence detector so but yeah if we had time perhaps we could try to find uh some kind of compromise between the delay that 's on the handset and on the server side . perhaps try to reduce the delay on the handset and but well hmm for the moment they have this large delay on the the feature computation and so we do n't professor b: ok . so alright so for now at least that 's not there you have some results with low - pass filter cepstrum does n't have a huge effect but it but it looks like it you know maybe could help in a couple places . phd c: i th professor b: uh little bit . phd c: yeah . professor b: um and um um yeah and uh let 's see what else did we have in there ? uh i guess it makes a l um at this point this is i i guess i should probably look at these others a little bit uh and you you yellowed these out uh but uh uh oh i see yeah that that one you ca n't use because of the delay . those look pretty good . um let 's see that one well even the just the the second row does n't look that bad right ? that 's just uh yeah ? phd c: yep . professor b: and and that looks like an interesting one too . phd d: mmm yeah . professor b: uh phd c: actually the yeah the second line is uh pretty much like the first line in yellow except that we do n't have this klt on the first on the left part of the diagram . we just have the features as they are . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: um professor b: yeah . yeah so when we do this weighted measure we should compare the two cuz it might even come out better . and it 's it 's it 's a little slightly simpler . phd c: mm - hmm . yeah . professor b: so so there 's so i i would put that one also as a as a maybe . uh and it yeah and it 's actually does does significantly better on the uh uh highly mismatched italian , so s and little worse on the mis on the mm case , but uh well yeah it 's worse than a few things phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so uh let 's see how that c that c c see how that comes out on their their measure and are are we running this uh for ti - digits or uh phd c: yeah . professor b: now is ti di is is that part of the result that they get for the uh development th the results that they 're supposed to get at the end of end of the month , the ti - digits are there also ? phd c: yeah . yeah . it 's included , yeah . professor b: oh ok . ok . and see what else there is here . um oh i see the one i was looking down here at the the o the row below the lower yellowed one . uh that 's uh that 's with the reduced uh klt size reduced dimensionality . phd c: mm - hmm ? yeah . yeah . professor b: what happens there is it 's around the same and so you could reduce the dimension as you were saying before a bit perhaps . phd c: yeah , it 's it 's significantly worse well but mm - hmm . professor b: it 's significantly worse it 's it 's uh it 's it 's mostly worse . phd c: exc - except for the hm phd d: for many a mismatch it 's worse . phd c: but professor b: yeah . but it is little . i mean not not by a huge amount , i do n't know . what are what are the sizes of any of these sets , i i 'm i 'm sure you told me before , but i 've forgotten . so you know how many words are in uh one of these test sets ? phd c: uh phd d: i do n't remember . professor b: about ? phd c: um it 's it depends well the well matched is generally larger than the other sets and i think it 's around two thousand or three thousand words perhaps , at least . phd d: ye but words well word i do n't know . phd c: hmm ? the words , yeah . s sentences . phd d: sentences . phd c: some sets have five hundred sentences , so . phd d: yeah . professor b: so the so the sets so the test sets are between five hundred and two thousand sentences , let 's say phd c: mmm . professor b: and each sentence on the average has four or five digits or is it most of them longer or phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah for the italian even seven digits y more or less phd c: it it d seven digits . phd d: but sometime the sentence have only one digit and sometime uh like uh the number of uh credit cards , something like that . professor b: mm - hmm . right , so between one and sixteen . see the i mean the reason i 'm asking is is is we have all these small differences and i do n't know how seriously to take them , right ? phd c: mm - hmm ? professor b: so uh i if if you had uh just you know to give an example , if you had uh um if you had a thousand words then uh a a tenth of a percent would just be one word , phd c: yeah . professor b: right ? so so it would n't mean anything . phd d: yeah . professor b: oh phd c: yeah . professor b: um so um yeah it be kind of i 'd kind of like to know what the sizes of these test sets were actually . phd c: yeah . phd d: the size that we have ? phd c: we could we could run run some kind of significance tests professor b: yeah since these well also just to know the numbers , phd c: or phd d: yeah . professor b: right . so these these are word error rates phd c: yeah . professor b: so this is on how many words . phd c: yep . phd d: yeah we have the result that the output of the htk professor b: yeah . phd d: the number of of sentences , no it 's the number is n't . phd c: yeah sure sure . yeah sure . professor b: yeah so anyway if you could just mail out what those numbers are and then then that that be great . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor b: um what else is there here ? um see the second second from the bottom it says sil , but this is some different kind of silence or thing or what was that ? phd c: uh phd d: it the the output silence of the mlp . phd c: oh yeah i see . phd d: it 's only one small experiment to know what happened . to apply also to in include also the the silence of the mlp we have the fifty - six form and the silence to pick up the silence and we include those . professor b: yes . uh - huh , uh - huh . the silence plus the klt output ? oh so you 're only using the silence . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah , because when we apply the klt phd c: no they 're i think there is this silence in addition to the um klt outputs professor b: no . phd d: in addition , yes . phd c: it is because we we we just keep uh we do n't keep all the dimensions after the klt phd d: in addition t phd c: and yeah . phd d: and we not s we are not sure if we pick we have the silence . phd c: so we try to add the silence also in addition to the these twenty - eight dimensions . professor b: i see . ok . and what and what 's ogi forty - five ? the bottom one there ? phd c: uh it 's o it 's ogi two , it 's so the th it 's the features from the first line phd d: it 's in fact ogi two . professor b: s phd c: and yeah . professor b: right , but i mean what 's the what does the last row mean ? phd c: so it 's uh basically this but without the klt on the from the left path . professor b: i thought that was the one i thought that was the second row . so what 's the difference between the second phd c: uh the second line you do n't have this combo stuff so you just professor b: oh . phd c: uh professor b: so this is like the second line but with with the combo stuff . phd c: yeah . yeah . phd d: and with the all the output of the combo . professor b: ok . yeah . phd c: yeah . phd d: uh professor b: ok , so alright so it looks to me i guess the same given that we have to take the filt ones out of the the running because of this delay problem so it looks to me like the ones you said i agree are are the ones to look at phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: but i just would add the the the second row one phd c: yeah . professor b: and then um if we can um phd c: mmm . professor b: oh yeah also when when they 're using this weighting scheme of forty , thirty - five , twenty - five is that on the percentages or on the raw errors ? i guess it 's probably on the percentages right ? phd c: uh i guess , yeah . professor b: yeah ok . phd c: i guess , yeah . mmm . professor b: alright . phd c: it 's not clear here . professor b: ok . maybe maybe they 'll argue about it . um ok so if we can know what how many words are in each and then um dave uh dave promised to get us something tomorrow which will be there as far as they 've gotten friday phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: and then we 'll operate with that phd c: yeah . professor b: and uh how long did it i guess if we 're not doing all these things if we 're only doing um um i guess since this is development data it 's legitimate to do more than one , right ? i mean ordinarily if in final test data you do n't want to do several and and take the best phd c: yeah . mmm . professor b: that 's that 's that 's not proper but if this is development data we could still look at a couple . phd c: yeah . we can yeah . sure . but we have to decide i mean we have to fix the system on this d on this data , to choose the best professor b: yeah . i right . phd c: and these professor b: but the question is when when do we fix the system , phd c: but we could professor b: do we fix the system uh tomorrow or do we fix the system on tuesday ? phd c: it d professor b: i yeah , ok except that we do have to write it up . phd c: i think we fixed on tuesday , yeah . yeah . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: also , so phd c: yeah . yeah . professor b: um phd c: uh yeah well . well basically it 's this with perhaps some kind of printing and some some other @ @ . professor b: right so maybe what we do is we we we uh as soon as we get the data from them we start the training and so forth phd c: yeah but mm - hmm . professor b: but we start the write - up right away because as you say there there 's only minor differences between these . phd c: i think you we could we could start soon , yeah . professor b: yeah . phd c: write up something . professor b: yeah , and and i i would you know , i would i 'd kind of like to see it phd c: um yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: maybe i can i can edit it a bit uh sure . the my what in this si i in this situation is my forte which is english . phd c: yeah . professor b: uh so phd c: mmm . professor b: uh h yeah . have y have you seen alt d do they have a format for how they want the system descriptions or anything ? phd c: uh not really . professor b: ok . phd c: um there is the format of the table which is quite impressive . professor b: yeah ? uh i see . yes , for those who are listening to this and not looking at it uh it 's not really that impressive , it 's just tiny . it 's all these little categories set a , set b , set c , multi - condition , clean . uh no mitigation . wow . do you know what no what no mitigation means here ? phd c: um it should be the the problem with the error channel error professor b: oh that 's probably the phd c: or professor b: this is probably channel error stuff phd c: well , you professor b: huh ? oh this is i right , it says right above here channel channel error resilience , phd c: yeah . yeah . professor b: yeah . so recognition performance is just the top part , actually . uh and they have yes , split between seen databases and non - seen so basically between development and and evaluation . phd c: yeah . professor b: and so right , it 's presumed there 's all sorts of tuning that 's gone on on the see what they call seen databases and there wo n't be tuning for the uh unseen . multi - condition multi - condition . so they have looks like they have uh uh phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so they splitting up between the ti - digits and everything else , i see . so the everything else is the speechdat - car , that 's the multi multilingual phd c: yeah , so it 's not divided between languages you mean or professor b: well , it is . phd c: it just professor b: it is , but there 's also there 's these tables over here for the for the ti - digits and these tables over here for the car data which is which is i guess all the multilingual stuff phd c: oh yeah . professor b: and then uh there 's they also split up between multi - condition and clean only . phd c: yeah . for ti - digits . professor b: yes . phd c: yeah , actually yeah . for the ti - digits they want to train on clean and on noisy professor b: yeah . phd c: and yeah . professor b: so we 're doing that also , i guess . phd c: uh yeah . but uh we actually do we have the features ? yeah . for the clean ti - digits but we did not test it yet . uh the clean training stuff . professor b: ok . phd c: mmm . professor b: well anyway , sounds like there 'll be a lot to do just to work with our partners to fill out the tables over the next uh next few days phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: yes . professor b: i guess they have to send it out let 's see the thirty - first is uh uh wednesday and i think the it has to be there by some hour uh european time on wednesday phd c: hmm - hmm . professor b: so i think basically phd d: we lost time uh wednesday maybe because that the difference in the time may be is a long different of the time . professor b: e excuse me ? phd d: maybe the thursday the twelfth of the night of the thurs - thirty - one is is not valid in europe . phd c: yeah . phd d: we do n't know is happening . professor b: yes , so i mean i think we have to actually get it done tuesday phd d: tuesday . professor b: right because i i think phd c: yeah , well . professor b: uh uh phd c: except if if it 's the thirty - one at midnight or i do n't know we can still do some work on wednesday morning . professor b: yeah well . w i is but is is it midni i thought it was actually something like five pm on phd c: yeah , well . yeah . phd d: yeah . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: was like i thought it was five pm or something , i did n't think it was midnight . i thought they said they wanted everything by phd d: yeah , five pm . professor b: well , so five pm their time is is if phd d: not five pm , three pm . professor b: three pm . phd d: three pm . professor b: alright , that 's six in the morning here . phd c: it 's d no . phd d: uh no three three a - three pm ? phd c: no , we are wondering about the the the hour that we have to eh i do n't know if it 's three pm it 's phd d: oh yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . three pm here is in europe midnight . phd c: yeah , it 's it 's midnight but professor b: yes , yes , but i did n't think it was midnight that it was due , i thought it was due at some hour during the day like five pm or something . phd d: oh ok . mm - hmm . mm - hmm , professor b: in which case phd d: maybe . professor b: so i i uh well we should look but my assumption is that we basically have to be done tuesday . um so then next thursday we can sort of have a little aftermath phd d: yeah . professor b: but then then we 'll actually have the new data which is the german and the danish phd c: yeah . professor b: but that really will be much less work because uh the system will be fixed phd c: yeah . professor b: so all we 'll do is take whatever they have and and uh and run it through the process . phd c: yeah . professor b: uh we wo n't be changing the training on anything phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so there 'll be no new training , there 'll just be new htk runs , so that 's means in some sense we can kind of relax from this after after tuesday and and uh maybe next meeting we can start talking a little bit about where we want to go from here uh in terms of uh the research . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: um you know what things uh did you think of when you were uh doing this process that uh you just did n't really have time to adequately work on uh uh so phd c: mm - hmm . yeah . professor b: what ? grad a: oh , stephane always has these great ideas and oh , but uh we do n't have time . phd c: sure . professor b: yeah . grad a: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd c: i 'm not sure these are great ideas . professor b: but they 're ideas . yeah ? oh , that was good . phd c: yeah . grad a: yeah . professor b: and and uh also it 's still true that uh i think it 's true that that we we at least got fairly consistent i improved results by running uh the uh neural net transformation in parallel with the features phd c: but professor b: rather than uh in sequence which was was your suggestion and that that that seems to have been borne out . phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: the fact that none of these are are you know , enormous is is is not too surprising most improvements are n't enormous and uh phd c: yeah . professor b: some of them are but uh i mean you have something really really wrong and you fix it you can get big and really enormous improvements phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: but uh um cuz our best improvements over the years that we 've gotten from finding bugs , but anyway ok well i i think i see where we are and everybody knows what they 're doing and is there is there anything else we should talk about or or are we done ? phd c: mm - hmm . i think it 's ok um . we so basically we will i think we 'll try to to focus on these three architectures and and perhaps i was thinking also a fourth one with just just a single klt because we did not really test that professor b: uh - huh . phd c: removing all these klt 's and putting one single klt at the end . professor b: yeah , i mean that would be pretty low maintenance to try it . phd c: yeah . professor b: uh if you can fit it in . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: oh i have yeah i do have one other piece of information which uh i should tell people outside of this group too uh i do n't know if we 're gon na need it uh but uh jeff up at the uh university of washington has uh gotten a hold of a uh uh some kind of server farm of uh of ten uh uh multiprocessor uh ibm machines rs six thousands phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: and and uh so i think each one is four processors or something or i do n't know , eight hundred megahertz or something and there 's four processors in a box and there 's ten boxes and there 's some kind of ti so if you know he 's got a lot of processing power and um we 'd have to schedule it but if we have some big jobs and we wan na wan na wan na run them he 's he 's offering it . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so . it 's uh when he was here eh uh he he used i not only every machine here but every machine on campus as far as i could tell , so so in some ways he just got his payback , but uh again i i do n't know if we 'll end up with if we 're gon na be cpu limited on anything that we 're doing in this group phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: but but if if we are that 's an offer . ok well uh you guys doing great stuff so that 's that that 's really neat and uh we 'll uh uh g do n't think we need to uh um oh well the other thing i guess that i will say is that uh the digits that we 're gon na record momentarily is starting to get are starting to get into a pretty good size collection and um in addition to the speechdat stuff we will have those to work with really pretty soon now so that 's that 's another source of data . um which is s under somewhat better control and that we can we can make measurements of the room the uh that you know if we feel there 's other measurements we do n't have that we 'd like to have we can make them and uh dave and i were just talking about that a little while ago so uh that 's another another possibility for this this kind of work . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: k , uh if nobody has anything else maybe we should go around do do our digits do our digits duty . ok . ok i 'll start . uh , let me say that again . ok . i guess we 're done .

phd c explained that there was no room left for silence detection because of the server side delay . they were working out a compromise between the handset delay and the server delay , but the delay was too large at the moment .

what did the professor think about the silence detection problem ? </s> professor b: ok so uh today we 're looking at a number of uh things we 're trying and uh fortunately for listeners to this uh we lost some of it 's visual but um got tables in front of us . um what is what does combo mean ? phd c: so combo is um a system where we have these features that go through a network and then this same string of features but low - pass filtered with the low - pass filter used in the msg features . and so these low - pass filtered goes through m eh another mlp and then the linear output of these two mlp 's are combined just by adding the values and then there is this klt . um the output is used as uh features as well . professor b: um so let me try to restate this and see if i have it right . there is uh there is the features uh there 's the ogi features and then um those features um go through a contextual uh l l let 's take this bottom arr one pointed to by the bottom arrow . um those features go through a contextualized klt . then these features also uh get um low - pass filtered phd c: yeah . yeah so yeah i could perhaps draw this on the blackboard professor b: sure . yeah . yeah . phd c: yeah . phd d: the graph , yeah another one . professor b: yeah , that 's good . phd c: professor b: so phd c: so we have these features from ogi that goes through the three paths . professor b: yeah . three , ok . phd c: the first is a klt using several frames of the features . professor b: yeah . yeah . phd c: the second path is uh mlp also using nine frames several frames of features professor b: yeah . uh - huh . phd c: the third path is this low - pass filter . professor b: uh - huh . phd c: uh , mlp professor b: aha ! aha ! phd c: adding the outputs just like in the second propose the the proposal from for the first evaluation . professor b: yeah ? yeah . yeah . phd c: and then the klt and then the two together again . professor b: no , the klt . and those two together . that 's it . phd d: two htk . professor b: ok so that 's that 's this bottom one . phd c: um . so this is yeah professor b: and so uh and then the the the one at the top and i presume these things that uh are in yellow are in yellow because overall they 're the best ? phd c: yeah that 's the reason , yeah . professor b: oh let 's focus on them then so what 's the block diagram for the one above it ? phd c: for the f the f first yellow line you mean ? professor b: yeah . phd c: yeah so it 's uh basically s the same except that we do n't have this uh low - pass filtering so we have only two streams . phd d: step . phd c: well . there 's there 's no low low - pass processing used as additional feature stream . professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd c: um professor b: do you e um they mentioned made some uh when i was on the phone with sunil they they mentioned some weighting scheme that was used to evaluate all of these numbers . phd c: yeah . uh actually the way things seems to um well it 's uh forty percent for ti - digit , sixty for all the speechdat - cars , well all these languages . ehm the well match is forty , medium thirty five and high mismatch twenty - five . yeah . professor b: um and we do n't have the ti - digits part yet ? phd c: uh , no . professor b: ok . phd c: but yeah . generally what you observe with ti - digits is that the result are very close whatever the the system . professor b: ok . and so have you put all these numbers together into a single number representing that ? phd c: yeah . professor b: i mean not phd c: uh not yet . professor b: ok so that should be pretty easy to do and that would be good phd c: no . mmm yeah , yeah . professor b: then we could compare the two and say what was better . phd c: mmm . yeah . professor b: um and how does this compare to the numbers oh so ogi two is just the top top row ? phd d: yeah . phd c: so yeah to actually ogi two is the the baseline with the ogi features but this is not exactly the result that they have because they 've they 're still made some changes in the features professor b: ok . phd c: and well but uh actually our results are better than their results . um i do n't know by how much because they did not send us the new results professor b: ok . phd c: uh professor b: uh ok so the one one place where it looks like we 're messing things up a bit is in the highly mismatched italian . phd c: yeah . yeah . professor b: an phd c: yeah there is something funny happening here because yeah . professor b: yeah . phd c: but there are thirty - six and then sometimes we are we are we are around forty - two and professor b: now up phd c: but professor b: uh so one of the ideas that you had mentioned last time was having a a second um silence detection . phd c: yeah . so there are some results here phd d: for the italian . phd c: uh so the third and the fifth line of the table phd d: for this one . professor b: so filt is what that is ? phd c: filt , yeah phd d: yeah . phd c: um yeah so it seems f for the the well match and mismatched condition it 's uh it brings something . uh but uh actually apparently there are there 's no room left for any silence detector at the server side because of the delay . uh well professor b: oh we ca n't do it . oh ok . phd c: no . phd d: for that for that we professor b: oh . phd c: uh professor b: too bad . good idea , but ca n't do it . phd c: yeah . professor b: ok . phd c: except i do n't know because they i think they are still working well . professor b: uh - huh . phd c: uh t two days ago they were still working on this trying to reduce the delay of the silence detector so but yeah if we had time perhaps we could try to find uh some kind of compromise between the delay that 's on the handset and on the server side . perhaps try to reduce the delay on the handset and but well hmm for the moment they have this large delay on the the feature computation and so we do n't professor b: ok . so alright so for now at least that 's not there you have some results with low - pass filter cepstrum does n't have a huge effect but it but it looks like it you know maybe could help in a couple places . phd c: i th professor b: uh little bit . phd c: yeah . professor b: um and um um yeah and uh let 's see what else did we have in there ? uh i guess it makes a l um at this point this is i i guess i should probably look at these others a little bit uh and you you yellowed these out uh but uh uh oh i see yeah that that one you ca n't use because of the delay . those look pretty good . um let 's see that one well even the just the the second row does n't look that bad right ? that 's just uh yeah ? phd c: yep . professor b: and and that looks like an interesting one too . phd d: mmm yeah . professor b: uh phd c: actually the yeah the second line is uh pretty much like the first line in yellow except that we do n't have this klt on the first on the left part of the diagram . we just have the features as they are . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: um professor b: yeah . yeah so when we do this weighted measure we should compare the two cuz it might even come out better . and it 's it 's it 's a little slightly simpler . phd c: mm - hmm . yeah . professor b: so so there 's so i i would put that one also as a as a maybe . uh and it yeah and it 's actually does does significantly better on the uh uh highly mismatched italian , so s and little worse on the mis on the mm case , but uh well yeah it 's worse than a few things phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so uh let 's see how that c that c c see how that comes out on their their measure and are are we running this uh for ti - digits or uh phd c: yeah . professor b: now is ti di is is that part of the result that they get for the uh development th the results that they 're supposed to get at the end of end of the month , the ti - digits are there also ? phd c: yeah . yeah . it 's included , yeah . professor b: oh ok . ok . and see what else there is here . um oh i see the one i was looking down here at the the o the row below the lower yellowed one . uh that 's uh that 's with the reduced uh klt size reduced dimensionality . phd c: mm - hmm ? yeah . yeah . professor b: what happens there is it 's around the same and so you could reduce the dimension as you were saying before a bit perhaps . phd c: yeah , it 's it 's significantly worse well but mm - hmm . professor b: it 's significantly worse it 's it 's uh it 's it 's mostly worse . phd c: exc - except for the hm phd d: for many a mismatch it 's worse . phd c: but professor b: yeah . but it is little . i mean not not by a huge amount , i do n't know . what are what are the sizes of any of these sets , i i 'm i 'm sure you told me before , but i 've forgotten . so you know how many words are in uh one of these test sets ? phd c: uh phd d: i do n't remember . professor b: about ? phd c: um it 's it depends well the well matched is generally larger than the other sets and i think it 's around two thousand or three thousand words perhaps , at least . phd d: ye but words well word i do n't know . phd c: hmm ? the words , yeah . s sentences . phd d: sentences . phd c: some sets have five hundred sentences , so . phd d: yeah . professor b: so the so the sets so the test sets are between five hundred and two thousand sentences , let 's say phd c: mmm . professor b: and each sentence on the average has four or five digits or is it most of them longer or phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah for the italian even seven digits y more or less phd c: it it d seven digits . phd d: but sometime the sentence have only one digit and sometime uh like uh the number of uh credit cards , something like that . professor b: mm - hmm . right , so between one and sixteen . see the i mean the reason i 'm asking is is is we have all these small differences and i do n't know how seriously to take them , right ? phd c: mm - hmm ? professor b: so uh i if if you had uh just you know to give an example , if you had uh um if you had a thousand words then uh a a tenth of a percent would just be one word , phd c: yeah . professor b: right ? so so it would n't mean anything . phd d: yeah . professor b: oh phd c: yeah . professor b: um so um yeah it be kind of i 'd kind of like to know what the sizes of these test sets were actually . phd c: yeah . phd d: the size that we have ? phd c: we could we could run run some kind of significance tests professor b: yeah since these well also just to know the numbers , phd c: or phd d: yeah . professor b: right . so these these are word error rates phd c: yeah . professor b: so this is on how many words . phd c: yep . phd d: yeah we have the result that the output of the htk professor b: yeah . phd d: the number of of sentences , no it 's the number is n't . phd c: yeah sure sure . yeah sure . professor b: yeah so anyway if you could just mail out what those numbers are and then then that that be great . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor b: um what else is there here ? um see the second second from the bottom it says sil , but this is some different kind of silence or thing or what was that ? phd c: uh phd d: it the the output silence of the mlp . phd c: oh yeah i see . phd d: it 's only one small experiment to know what happened . to apply also to in include also the the silence of the mlp we have the fifty - six form and the silence to pick up the silence and we include those . professor b: yes . uh - huh , uh - huh . the silence plus the klt output ? oh so you 're only using the silence . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah , because when we apply the klt phd c: no they 're i think there is this silence in addition to the um klt outputs professor b: no . phd d: in addition , yes . phd c: it is because we we we just keep uh we do n't keep all the dimensions after the klt phd d: in addition t phd c: and yeah . phd d: and we not s we are not sure if we pick we have the silence . phd c: so we try to add the silence also in addition to the these twenty - eight dimensions . professor b: i see . ok . and what and what 's ogi forty - five ? the bottom one there ? phd c: uh it 's o it 's ogi two , it 's so the th it 's the features from the first line phd d: it 's in fact ogi two . professor b: s phd c: and yeah . professor b: right , but i mean what 's the what does the last row mean ? phd c: so it 's uh basically this but without the klt on the from the left path . professor b: i thought that was the one i thought that was the second row . so what 's the difference between the second phd c: uh the second line you do n't have this combo stuff so you just professor b: oh . phd c: uh professor b: so this is like the second line but with with the combo stuff . phd c: yeah . yeah . phd d: and with the all the output of the combo . professor b: ok . yeah . phd c: yeah . phd d: uh professor b: ok , so alright so it looks to me i guess the same given that we have to take the filt ones out of the the running because of this delay problem so it looks to me like the ones you said i agree are are the ones to look at phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: but i just would add the the the second row one phd c: yeah . professor b: and then um if we can um phd c: mmm . professor b: oh yeah also when when they 're using this weighting scheme of forty , thirty - five , twenty - five is that on the percentages or on the raw errors ? i guess it 's probably on the percentages right ? phd c: uh i guess , yeah . professor b: yeah ok . phd c: i guess , yeah . mmm . professor b: alright . phd c: it 's not clear here . professor b: ok . maybe maybe they 'll argue about it . um ok so if we can know what how many words are in each and then um dave uh dave promised to get us something tomorrow which will be there as far as they 've gotten friday phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: and then we 'll operate with that phd c: yeah . professor b: and uh how long did it i guess if we 're not doing all these things if we 're only doing um um i guess since this is development data it 's legitimate to do more than one , right ? i mean ordinarily if in final test data you do n't want to do several and and take the best phd c: yeah . mmm . professor b: that 's that 's that 's not proper but if this is development data we could still look at a couple . phd c: yeah . we can yeah . sure . but we have to decide i mean we have to fix the system on this d on this data , to choose the best professor b: yeah . i right . phd c: and these professor b: but the question is when when do we fix the system , phd c: but we could professor b: do we fix the system uh tomorrow or do we fix the system on tuesday ? phd c: it d professor b: i yeah , ok except that we do have to write it up . phd c: i think we fixed on tuesday , yeah . yeah . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: also , so phd c: yeah . yeah . professor b: um phd c: uh yeah well . well basically it 's this with perhaps some kind of printing and some some other @ @ . professor b: right so maybe what we do is we we we uh as soon as we get the data from them we start the training and so forth phd c: yeah but mm - hmm . professor b: but we start the write - up right away because as you say there there 's only minor differences between these . phd c: i think you we could we could start soon , yeah . professor b: yeah . phd c: write up something . professor b: yeah , and and i i would you know , i would i 'd kind of like to see it phd c: um yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: maybe i can i can edit it a bit uh sure . the my what in this si i in this situation is my forte which is english . phd c: yeah . professor b: uh so phd c: mmm . professor b: uh h yeah . have y have you seen alt d do they have a format for how they want the system descriptions or anything ? phd c: uh not really . professor b: ok . phd c: um there is the format of the table which is quite impressive . professor b: yeah ? uh i see . yes , for those who are listening to this and not looking at it uh it 's not really that impressive , it 's just tiny . it 's all these little categories set a , set b , set c , multi - condition , clean . uh no mitigation . wow . do you know what no what no mitigation means here ? phd c: um it should be the the problem with the error channel error professor b: oh that 's probably the phd c: or professor b: this is probably channel error stuff phd c: well , you professor b: huh ? oh this is i right , it says right above here channel channel error resilience , phd c: yeah . yeah . professor b: yeah . so recognition performance is just the top part , actually . uh and they have yes , split between seen databases and non - seen so basically between development and and evaluation . phd c: yeah . professor b: and so right , it 's presumed there 's all sorts of tuning that 's gone on on the see what they call seen databases and there wo n't be tuning for the uh unseen . multi - condition multi - condition . so they have looks like they have uh uh phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so they splitting up between the ti - digits and everything else , i see . so the everything else is the speechdat - car , that 's the multi multilingual phd c: yeah , so it 's not divided between languages you mean or professor b: well , it is . phd c: it just professor b: it is , but there 's also there 's these tables over here for the for the ti - digits and these tables over here for the car data which is which is i guess all the multilingual stuff phd c: oh yeah . professor b: and then uh there 's they also split up between multi - condition and clean only . phd c: yeah . for ti - digits . professor b: yes . phd c: yeah , actually yeah . for the ti - digits they want to train on clean and on noisy professor b: yeah . phd c: and yeah . professor b: so we 're doing that also , i guess . phd c: uh yeah . but uh we actually do we have the features ? yeah . for the clean ti - digits but we did not test it yet . uh the clean training stuff . professor b: ok . phd c: mmm . professor b: well anyway , sounds like there 'll be a lot to do just to work with our partners to fill out the tables over the next uh next few days phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: yes . professor b: i guess they have to send it out let 's see the thirty - first is uh uh wednesday and i think the it has to be there by some hour uh european time on wednesday phd c: hmm - hmm . professor b: so i think basically phd d: we lost time uh wednesday maybe because that the difference in the time may be is a long different of the time . professor b: e excuse me ? phd d: maybe the thursday the twelfth of the night of the thurs - thirty - one is is not valid in europe . phd c: yeah . phd d: we do n't know is happening . professor b: yes , so i mean i think we have to actually get it done tuesday phd d: tuesday . professor b: right because i i think phd c: yeah , well . professor b: uh uh phd c: except if if it 's the thirty - one at midnight or i do n't know we can still do some work on wednesday morning . professor b: yeah well . w i is but is is it midni i thought it was actually something like five pm on phd c: yeah , well . yeah . phd d: yeah . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: was like i thought it was five pm or something , i did n't think it was midnight . i thought they said they wanted everything by phd d: yeah , five pm . professor b: well , so five pm their time is is if phd d: not five pm , three pm . professor b: three pm . phd d: three pm . professor b: alright , that 's six in the morning here . phd c: it 's d no . phd d: uh no three three a - three pm ? phd c: no , we are wondering about the the the hour that we have to eh i do n't know if it 's three pm it 's phd d: oh yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . three pm here is in europe midnight . phd c: yeah , it 's it 's midnight but professor b: yes , yes , but i did n't think it was midnight that it was due , i thought it was due at some hour during the day like five pm or something . phd d: oh ok . mm - hmm . mm - hmm , professor b: in which case phd d: maybe . professor b: so i i uh well we should look but my assumption is that we basically have to be done tuesday . um so then next thursday we can sort of have a little aftermath phd d: yeah . professor b: but then then we 'll actually have the new data which is the german and the danish phd c: yeah . professor b: but that really will be much less work because uh the system will be fixed phd c: yeah . professor b: so all we 'll do is take whatever they have and and uh and run it through the process . phd c: yeah . professor b: uh we wo n't be changing the training on anything phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so there 'll be no new training , there 'll just be new htk runs , so that 's means in some sense we can kind of relax from this after after tuesday and and uh maybe next meeting we can start talking a little bit about where we want to go from here uh in terms of uh the research . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: um you know what things uh did you think of when you were uh doing this process that uh you just did n't really have time to adequately work on uh uh so phd c: mm - hmm . yeah . professor b: what ? grad a: oh , stephane always has these great ideas and oh , but uh we do n't have time . phd c: sure . professor b: yeah . grad a: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd c: i 'm not sure these are great ideas . professor b: but they 're ideas . yeah ? oh , that was good . phd c: yeah . grad a: yeah . professor b: and and uh also it 's still true that uh i think it 's true that that we we at least got fairly consistent i improved results by running uh the uh neural net transformation in parallel with the features phd c: but professor b: rather than uh in sequence which was was your suggestion and that that that seems to have been borne out . phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: the fact that none of these are are you know , enormous is is is not too surprising most improvements are n't enormous and uh phd c: yeah . professor b: some of them are but uh i mean you have something really really wrong and you fix it you can get big and really enormous improvements phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: but uh um cuz our best improvements over the years that we 've gotten from finding bugs , but anyway ok well i i think i see where we are and everybody knows what they 're doing and is there is there anything else we should talk about or or are we done ? phd c: mm - hmm . i think it 's ok um . we so basically we will i think we 'll try to to focus on these three architectures and and perhaps i was thinking also a fourth one with just just a single klt because we did not really test that professor b: uh - huh . phd c: removing all these klt 's and putting one single klt at the end . professor b: yeah , i mean that would be pretty low maintenance to try it . phd c: yeah . professor b: uh if you can fit it in . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: oh i have yeah i do have one other piece of information which uh i should tell people outside of this group too uh i do n't know if we 're gon na need it uh but uh jeff up at the uh university of washington has uh gotten a hold of a uh uh some kind of server farm of uh of ten uh uh multiprocessor uh ibm machines rs six thousands phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: and and uh so i think each one is four processors or something or i do n't know , eight hundred megahertz or something and there 's four processors in a box and there 's ten boxes and there 's some kind of ti so if you know he 's got a lot of processing power and um we 'd have to schedule it but if we have some big jobs and we wan na wan na wan na run them he 's he 's offering it . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so . it 's uh when he was here eh uh he he used i not only every machine here but every machine on campus as far as i could tell , so so in some ways he just got his payback , but uh again i i do n't know if we 'll end up with if we 're gon na be cpu limited on anything that we 're doing in this group phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: but but if if we are that 's an offer . ok well uh you guys doing great stuff so that 's that that 's really neat and uh we 'll uh uh g do n't think we need to uh um oh well the other thing i guess that i will say is that uh the digits that we 're gon na record momentarily is starting to get are starting to get into a pretty good size collection and um in addition to the speechdat stuff we will have those to work with really pretty soon now so that 's that 's another source of data . um which is s under somewhat better control and that we can we can make measurements of the room the uh that you know if we feel there 's other measurements we do n't have that we 'd like to have we can make them and uh dave and i were just talking about that a little while ago so uh that 's another another possibility for this this kind of work . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: k , uh if nobody has anything else maybe we should go around do do our digits do our digits duty . ok . ok i 'll start . uh , let me say that again . ok . i guess we 're done .

the professor thought that the results in the experiment without silence detection were okay as well . he thought some sort of weighted measure between other features should result in good performance .

summarize the discussion on fixing the system </s> professor b: ok so uh today we 're looking at a number of uh things we 're trying and uh fortunately for listeners to this uh we lost some of it 's visual but um got tables in front of us . um what is what does combo mean ? phd c: so combo is um a system where we have these features that go through a network and then this same string of features but low - pass filtered with the low - pass filter used in the msg features . and so these low - pass filtered goes through m eh another mlp and then the linear output of these two mlp 's are combined just by adding the values and then there is this klt . um the output is used as uh features as well . professor b: um so let me try to restate this and see if i have it right . there is uh there is the features uh there 's the ogi features and then um those features um go through a contextual uh l l let 's take this bottom arr one pointed to by the bottom arrow . um those features go through a contextualized klt . then these features also uh get um low - pass filtered phd c: yeah . yeah so yeah i could perhaps draw this on the blackboard professor b: sure . yeah . yeah . phd c: yeah . phd d: the graph , yeah another one . professor b: yeah , that 's good . phd c: professor b: so phd c: so we have these features from ogi that goes through the three paths . professor b: yeah . three , ok . phd c: the first is a klt using several frames of the features . professor b: yeah . yeah . phd c: the second path is uh mlp also using nine frames several frames of features professor b: yeah . uh - huh . phd c: the third path is this low - pass filter . professor b: uh - huh . phd c: uh , mlp professor b: aha ! aha ! phd c: adding the outputs just like in the second propose the the proposal from for the first evaluation . professor b: yeah ? yeah . yeah . phd c: and then the klt and then the two together again . professor b: no , the klt . and those two together . that 's it . phd d: two htk . professor b: ok so that 's that 's this bottom one . phd c: um . so this is yeah professor b: and so uh and then the the the one at the top and i presume these things that uh are in yellow are in yellow because overall they 're the best ? phd c: yeah that 's the reason , yeah . professor b: oh let 's focus on them then so what 's the block diagram for the one above it ? phd c: for the f the f first yellow line you mean ? professor b: yeah . phd c: yeah so it 's uh basically s the same except that we do n't have this uh low - pass filtering so we have only two streams . phd d: step . phd c: well . there 's there 's no low low - pass processing used as additional feature stream . professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd c: um professor b: do you e um they mentioned made some uh when i was on the phone with sunil they they mentioned some weighting scheme that was used to evaluate all of these numbers . phd c: yeah . uh actually the way things seems to um well it 's uh forty percent for ti - digit , sixty for all the speechdat - cars , well all these languages . ehm the well match is forty , medium thirty five and high mismatch twenty - five . yeah . professor b: um and we do n't have the ti - digits part yet ? phd c: uh , no . professor b: ok . phd c: but yeah . generally what you observe with ti - digits is that the result are very close whatever the the system . professor b: ok . and so have you put all these numbers together into a single number representing that ? phd c: yeah . professor b: i mean not phd c: uh not yet . professor b: ok so that should be pretty easy to do and that would be good phd c: no . mmm yeah , yeah . professor b: then we could compare the two and say what was better . phd c: mmm . yeah . professor b: um and how does this compare to the numbers oh so ogi two is just the top top row ? phd d: yeah . phd c: so yeah to actually ogi two is the the baseline with the ogi features but this is not exactly the result that they have because they 've they 're still made some changes in the features professor b: ok . phd c: and well but uh actually our results are better than their results . um i do n't know by how much because they did not send us the new results professor b: ok . phd c: uh professor b: uh ok so the one one place where it looks like we 're messing things up a bit is in the highly mismatched italian . phd c: yeah . yeah . professor b: an phd c: yeah there is something funny happening here because yeah . professor b: yeah . phd c: but there are thirty - six and then sometimes we are we are we are around forty - two and professor b: now up phd c: but professor b: uh so one of the ideas that you had mentioned last time was having a a second um silence detection . phd c: yeah . so there are some results here phd d: for the italian . phd c: uh so the third and the fifth line of the table phd d: for this one . professor b: so filt is what that is ? phd c: filt , yeah phd d: yeah . phd c: um yeah so it seems f for the the well match and mismatched condition it 's uh it brings something . uh but uh actually apparently there are there 's no room left for any silence detector at the server side because of the delay . uh well professor b: oh we ca n't do it . oh ok . phd c: no . phd d: for that for that we professor b: oh . phd c: uh professor b: too bad . good idea , but ca n't do it . phd c: yeah . professor b: ok . phd c: except i do n't know because they i think they are still working well . professor b: uh - huh . phd c: uh t two days ago they were still working on this trying to reduce the delay of the silence detector so but yeah if we had time perhaps we could try to find uh some kind of compromise between the delay that 's on the handset and on the server side . perhaps try to reduce the delay on the handset and but well hmm for the moment they have this large delay on the the feature computation and so we do n't professor b: ok . so alright so for now at least that 's not there you have some results with low - pass filter cepstrum does n't have a huge effect but it but it looks like it you know maybe could help in a couple places . phd c: i th professor b: uh little bit . phd c: yeah . professor b: um and um um yeah and uh let 's see what else did we have in there ? uh i guess it makes a l um at this point this is i i guess i should probably look at these others a little bit uh and you you yellowed these out uh but uh uh oh i see yeah that that one you ca n't use because of the delay . those look pretty good . um let 's see that one well even the just the the second row does n't look that bad right ? that 's just uh yeah ? phd c: yep . professor b: and and that looks like an interesting one too . phd d: mmm yeah . professor b: uh phd c: actually the yeah the second line is uh pretty much like the first line in yellow except that we do n't have this klt on the first on the left part of the diagram . we just have the features as they are . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: um professor b: yeah . yeah so when we do this weighted measure we should compare the two cuz it might even come out better . and it 's it 's it 's a little slightly simpler . phd c: mm - hmm . yeah . professor b: so so there 's so i i would put that one also as a as a maybe . uh and it yeah and it 's actually does does significantly better on the uh uh highly mismatched italian , so s and little worse on the mis on the mm case , but uh well yeah it 's worse than a few things phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so uh let 's see how that c that c c see how that comes out on their their measure and are are we running this uh for ti - digits or uh phd c: yeah . professor b: now is ti di is is that part of the result that they get for the uh development th the results that they 're supposed to get at the end of end of the month , the ti - digits are there also ? phd c: yeah . yeah . it 's included , yeah . professor b: oh ok . ok . and see what else there is here . um oh i see the one i was looking down here at the the o the row below the lower yellowed one . uh that 's uh that 's with the reduced uh klt size reduced dimensionality . phd c: mm - hmm ? yeah . yeah . professor b: what happens there is it 's around the same and so you could reduce the dimension as you were saying before a bit perhaps . phd c: yeah , it 's it 's significantly worse well but mm - hmm . professor b: it 's significantly worse it 's it 's uh it 's it 's mostly worse . phd c: exc - except for the hm phd d: for many a mismatch it 's worse . phd c: but professor b: yeah . but it is little . i mean not not by a huge amount , i do n't know . what are what are the sizes of any of these sets , i i 'm i 'm sure you told me before , but i 've forgotten . so you know how many words are in uh one of these test sets ? phd c: uh phd d: i do n't remember . professor b: about ? phd c: um it 's it depends well the well matched is generally larger than the other sets and i think it 's around two thousand or three thousand words perhaps , at least . phd d: ye but words well word i do n't know . phd c: hmm ? the words , yeah . s sentences . phd d: sentences . phd c: some sets have five hundred sentences , so . phd d: yeah . professor b: so the so the sets so the test sets are between five hundred and two thousand sentences , let 's say phd c: mmm . professor b: and each sentence on the average has four or five digits or is it most of them longer or phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah for the italian even seven digits y more or less phd c: it it d seven digits . phd d: but sometime the sentence have only one digit and sometime uh like uh the number of uh credit cards , something like that . professor b: mm - hmm . right , so between one and sixteen . see the i mean the reason i 'm asking is is is we have all these small differences and i do n't know how seriously to take them , right ? phd c: mm - hmm ? professor b: so uh i if if you had uh just you know to give an example , if you had uh um if you had a thousand words then uh a a tenth of a percent would just be one word , phd c: yeah . professor b: right ? so so it would n't mean anything . phd d: yeah . professor b: oh phd c: yeah . professor b: um so um yeah it be kind of i 'd kind of like to know what the sizes of these test sets were actually . phd c: yeah . phd d: the size that we have ? phd c: we could we could run run some kind of significance tests professor b: yeah since these well also just to know the numbers , phd c: or phd d: yeah . professor b: right . so these these are word error rates phd c: yeah . professor b: so this is on how many words . phd c: yep . phd d: yeah we have the result that the output of the htk professor b: yeah . phd d: the number of of sentences , no it 's the number is n't . phd c: yeah sure sure . yeah sure . professor b: yeah so anyway if you could just mail out what those numbers are and then then that that be great . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor b: um what else is there here ? um see the second second from the bottom it says sil , but this is some different kind of silence or thing or what was that ? phd c: uh phd d: it the the output silence of the mlp . phd c: oh yeah i see . phd d: it 's only one small experiment to know what happened . to apply also to in include also the the silence of the mlp we have the fifty - six form and the silence to pick up the silence and we include those . professor b: yes . uh - huh , uh - huh . the silence plus the klt output ? oh so you 're only using the silence . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah , because when we apply the klt phd c: no they 're i think there is this silence in addition to the um klt outputs professor b: no . phd d: in addition , yes . phd c: it is because we we we just keep uh we do n't keep all the dimensions after the klt phd d: in addition t phd c: and yeah . phd d: and we not s we are not sure if we pick we have the silence . phd c: so we try to add the silence also in addition to the these twenty - eight dimensions . professor b: i see . ok . and what and what 's ogi forty - five ? the bottom one there ? phd c: uh it 's o it 's ogi two , it 's so the th it 's the features from the first line phd d: it 's in fact ogi two . professor b: s phd c: and yeah . professor b: right , but i mean what 's the what does the last row mean ? phd c: so it 's uh basically this but without the klt on the from the left path . professor b: i thought that was the one i thought that was the second row . so what 's the difference between the second phd c: uh the second line you do n't have this combo stuff so you just professor b: oh . phd c: uh professor b: so this is like the second line but with with the combo stuff . phd c: yeah . yeah . phd d: and with the all the output of the combo . professor b: ok . yeah . phd c: yeah . phd d: uh professor b: ok , so alright so it looks to me i guess the same given that we have to take the filt ones out of the the running because of this delay problem so it looks to me like the ones you said i agree are are the ones to look at phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: but i just would add the the the second row one phd c: yeah . professor b: and then um if we can um phd c: mmm . professor b: oh yeah also when when they 're using this weighting scheme of forty , thirty - five , twenty - five is that on the percentages or on the raw errors ? i guess it 's probably on the percentages right ? phd c: uh i guess , yeah . professor b: yeah ok . phd c: i guess , yeah . mmm . professor b: alright . phd c: it 's not clear here . professor b: ok . maybe maybe they 'll argue about it . um ok so if we can know what how many words are in each and then um dave uh dave promised to get us something tomorrow which will be there as far as they 've gotten friday phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: and then we 'll operate with that phd c: yeah . professor b: and uh how long did it i guess if we 're not doing all these things if we 're only doing um um i guess since this is development data it 's legitimate to do more than one , right ? i mean ordinarily if in final test data you do n't want to do several and and take the best phd c: yeah . mmm . professor b: that 's that 's that 's not proper but if this is development data we could still look at a couple . phd c: yeah . we can yeah . sure . but we have to decide i mean we have to fix the system on this d on this data , to choose the best professor b: yeah . i right . phd c: and these professor b: but the question is when when do we fix the system , phd c: but we could professor b: do we fix the system uh tomorrow or do we fix the system on tuesday ? phd c: it d professor b: i yeah , ok except that we do have to write it up . phd c: i think we fixed on tuesday , yeah . yeah . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: also , so phd c: yeah . yeah . professor b: um phd c: uh yeah well . well basically it 's this with perhaps some kind of printing and some some other @ @ . professor b: right so maybe what we do is we we we uh as soon as we get the data from them we start the training and so forth phd c: yeah but mm - hmm . professor b: but we start the write - up right away because as you say there there 's only minor differences between these . phd c: i think you we could we could start soon , yeah . professor b: yeah . phd c: write up something . professor b: yeah , and and i i would you know , i would i 'd kind of like to see it phd c: um yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: maybe i can i can edit it a bit uh sure . the my what in this si i in this situation is my forte which is english . phd c: yeah . professor b: uh so phd c: mmm . professor b: uh h yeah . have y have you seen alt d do they have a format for how they want the system descriptions or anything ? phd c: uh not really . professor b: ok . phd c: um there is the format of the table which is quite impressive . professor b: yeah ? uh i see . yes , for those who are listening to this and not looking at it uh it 's not really that impressive , it 's just tiny . it 's all these little categories set a , set b , set c , multi - condition , clean . uh no mitigation . wow . do you know what no what no mitigation means here ? phd c: um it should be the the problem with the error channel error professor b: oh that 's probably the phd c: or professor b: this is probably channel error stuff phd c: well , you professor b: huh ? oh this is i right , it says right above here channel channel error resilience , phd c: yeah . yeah . professor b: yeah . so recognition performance is just the top part , actually . uh and they have yes , split between seen databases and non - seen so basically between development and and evaluation . phd c: yeah . professor b: and so right , it 's presumed there 's all sorts of tuning that 's gone on on the see what they call seen databases and there wo n't be tuning for the uh unseen . multi - condition multi - condition . so they have looks like they have uh uh phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so they splitting up between the ti - digits and everything else , i see . so the everything else is the speechdat - car , that 's the multi multilingual phd c: yeah , so it 's not divided between languages you mean or professor b: well , it is . phd c: it just professor b: it is , but there 's also there 's these tables over here for the for the ti - digits and these tables over here for the car data which is which is i guess all the multilingual stuff phd c: oh yeah . professor b: and then uh there 's they also split up between multi - condition and clean only . phd c: yeah . for ti - digits . professor b: yes . phd c: yeah , actually yeah . for the ti - digits they want to train on clean and on noisy professor b: yeah . phd c: and yeah . professor b: so we 're doing that also , i guess . phd c: uh yeah . but uh we actually do we have the features ? yeah . for the clean ti - digits but we did not test it yet . uh the clean training stuff . professor b: ok . phd c: mmm . professor b: well anyway , sounds like there 'll be a lot to do just to work with our partners to fill out the tables over the next uh next few days phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: yes . professor b: i guess they have to send it out let 's see the thirty - first is uh uh wednesday and i think the it has to be there by some hour uh european time on wednesday phd c: hmm - hmm . professor b: so i think basically phd d: we lost time uh wednesday maybe because that the difference in the time may be is a long different of the time . professor b: e excuse me ? phd d: maybe the thursday the twelfth of the night of the thurs - thirty - one is is not valid in europe . phd c: yeah . phd d: we do n't know is happening . professor b: yes , so i mean i think we have to actually get it done tuesday phd d: tuesday . professor b: right because i i think phd c: yeah , well . professor b: uh uh phd c: except if if it 's the thirty - one at midnight or i do n't know we can still do some work on wednesday morning . professor b: yeah well . w i is but is is it midni i thought it was actually something like five pm on phd c: yeah , well . yeah . phd d: yeah . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: was like i thought it was five pm or something , i did n't think it was midnight . i thought they said they wanted everything by phd d: yeah , five pm . professor b: well , so five pm their time is is if phd d: not five pm , three pm . professor b: three pm . phd d: three pm . professor b: alright , that 's six in the morning here . phd c: it 's d no . phd d: uh no three three a - three pm ? phd c: no , we are wondering about the the the hour that we have to eh i do n't know if it 's three pm it 's phd d: oh yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . three pm here is in europe midnight . phd c: yeah , it 's it 's midnight but professor b: yes , yes , but i did n't think it was midnight that it was due , i thought it was due at some hour during the day like five pm or something . phd d: oh ok . mm - hmm . mm - hmm , professor b: in which case phd d: maybe . professor b: so i i uh well we should look but my assumption is that we basically have to be done tuesday . um so then next thursday we can sort of have a little aftermath phd d: yeah . professor b: but then then we 'll actually have the new data which is the german and the danish phd c: yeah . professor b: but that really will be much less work because uh the system will be fixed phd c: yeah . professor b: so all we 'll do is take whatever they have and and uh and run it through the process . phd c: yeah . professor b: uh we wo n't be changing the training on anything phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so there 'll be no new training , there 'll just be new htk runs , so that 's means in some sense we can kind of relax from this after after tuesday and and uh maybe next meeting we can start talking a little bit about where we want to go from here uh in terms of uh the research . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: um you know what things uh did you think of when you were uh doing this process that uh you just did n't really have time to adequately work on uh uh so phd c: mm - hmm . yeah . professor b: what ? grad a: oh , stephane always has these great ideas and oh , but uh we do n't have time . phd c: sure . professor b: yeah . grad a: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd c: i 'm not sure these are great ideas . professor b: but they 're ideas . yeah ? oh , that was good . phd c: yeah . grad a: yeah . professor b: and and uh also it 's still true that uh i think it 's true that that we we at least got fairly consistent i improved results by running uh the uh neural net transformation in parallel with the features phd c: but professor b: rather than uh in sequence which was was your suggestion and that that that seems to have been borne out . phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: the fact that none of these are are you know , enormous is is is not too surprising most improvements are n't enormous and uh phd c: yeah . professor b: some of them are but uh i mean you have something really really wrong and you fix it you can get big and really enormous improvements phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: but uh um cuz our best improvements over the years that we 've gotten from finding bugs , but anyway ok well i i think i see where we are and everybody knows what they 're doing and is there is there anything else we should talk about or or are we done ? phd c: mm - hmm . i think it 's ok um . we so basically we will i think we 'll try to to focus on these three architectures and and perhaps i was thinking also a fourth one with just just a single klt because we did not really test that professor b: uh - huh . phd c: removing all these klt 's and putting one single klt at the end . professor b: yeah , i mean that would be pretty low maintenance to try it . phd c: yeah . professor b: uh if you can fit it in . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: oh i have yeah i do have one other piece of information which uh i should tell people outside of this group too uh i do n't know if we 're gon na need it uh but uh jeff up at the uh university of washington has uh gotten a hold of a uh uh some kind of server farm of uh of ten uh uh multiprocessor uh ibm machines rs six thousands phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: and and uh so i think each one is four processors or something or i do n't know , eight hundred megahertz or something and there 's four processors in a box and there 's ten boxes and there 's some kind of ti so if you know he 's got a lot of processing power and um we 'd have to schedule it but if we have some big jobs and we wan na wan na wan na run them he 's he 's offering it . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so . it 's uh when he was here eh uh he he used i not only every machine here but every machine on campus as far as i could tell , so so in some ways he just got his payback , but uh again i i do n't know if we 'll end up with if we 're gon na be cpu limited on anything that we 're doing in this group phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: but but if if we are that 's an offer . ok well uh you guys doing great stuff so that 's that that 's really neat and uh we 'll uh uh g do n't think we need to uh um oh well the other thing i guess that i will say is that uh the digits that we 're gon na record momentarily is starting to get are starting to get into a pretty good size collection and um in addition to the speechdat stuff we will have those to work with really pretty soon now so that 's that 's another source of data . um which is s under somewhat better control and that we can we can make measurements of the room the uh that you know if we feel there 's other measurements we do n't have that we 'd like to have we can make them and uh dave and i were just talking about that a little while ago so uh that 's another another possibility for this this kind of work . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: k , uh if nobody has anything else maybe we should go around do do our digits do our digits duty . ok . ok i 'll start . uh , let me say that again . ok . i guess we 're done .

it was time for the team to rely on the models they had created so far to fix the system . they were deciding when to fix it . the professor explained that they should do so by tuesday , and when they get new data later in the week , they need not train on it .

what did the team think about a single klt ? </s> professor b: ok so uh today we 're looking at a number of uh things we 're trying and uh fortunately for listeners to this uh we lost some of it 's visual but um got tables in front of us . um what is what does combo mean ? phd c: so combo is um a system where we have these features that go through a network and then this same string of features but low - pass filtered with the low - pass filter used in the msg features . and so these low - pass filtered goes through m eh another mlp and then the linear output of these two mlp 's are combined just by adding the values and then there is this klt . um the output is used as uh features as well . professor b: um so let me try to restate this and see if i have it right . there is uh there is the features uh there 's the ogi features and then um those features um go through a contextual uh l l let 's take this bottom arr one pointed to by the bottom arrow . um those features go through a contextualized klt . then these features also uh get um low - pass filtered phd c: yeah . yeah so yeah i could perhaps draw this on the blackboard professor b: sure . yeah . yeah . phd c: yeah . phd d: the graph , yeah another one . professor b: yeah , that 's good . phd c: professor b: so phd c: so we have these features from ogi that goes through the three paths . professor b: yeah . three , ok . phd c: the first is a klt using several frames of the features . professor b: yeah . yeah . phd c: the second path is uh mlp also using nine frames several frames of features professor b: yeah . uh - huh . phd c: the third path is this low - pass filter . professor b: uh - huh . phd c: uh , mlp professor b: aha ! aha ! phd c: adding the outputs just like in the second propose the the proposal from for the first evaluation . professor b: yeah ? yeah . yeah . phd c: and then the klt and then the two together again . professor b: no , the klt . and those two together . that 's it . phd d: two htk . professor b: ok so that 's that 's this bottom one . phd c: um . so this is yeah professor b: and so uh and then the the the one at the top and i presume these things that uh are in yellow are in yellow because overall they 're the best ? phd c: yeah that 's the reason , yeah . professor b: oh let 's focus on them then so what 's the block diagram for the one above it ? phd c: for the f the f first yellow line you mean ? professor b: yeah . phd c: yeah so it 's uh basically s the same except that we do n't have this uh low - pass filtering so we have only two streams . phd d: step . phd c: well . there 's there 's no low low - pass processing used as additional feature stream . professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd c: um professor b: do you e um they mentioned made some uh when i was on the phone with sunil they they mentioned some weighting scheme that was used to evaluate all of these numbers . phd c: yeah . uh actually the way things seems to um well it 's uh forty percent for ti - digit , sixty for all the speechdat - cars , well all these languages . ehm the well match is forty , medium thirty five and high mismatch twenty - five . yeah . professor b: um and we do n't have the ti - digits part yet ? phd c: uh , no . professor b: ok . phd c: but yeah . generally what you observe with ti - digits is that the result are very close whatever the the system . professor b: ok . and so have you put all these numbers together into a single number representing that ? phd c: yeah . professor b: i mean not phd c: uh not yet . professor b: ok so that should be pretty easy to do and that would be good phd c: no . mmm yeah , yeah . professor b: then we could compare the two and say what was better . phd c: mmm . yeah . professor b: um and how does this compare to the numbers oh so ogi two is just the top top row ? phd d: yeah . phd c: so yeah to actually ogi two is the the baseline with the ogi features but this is not exactly the result that they have because they 've they 're still made some changes in the features professor b: ok . phd c: and well but uh actually our results are better than their results . um i do n't know by how much because they did not send us the new results professor b: ok . phd c: uh professor b: uh ok so the one one place where it looks like we 're messing things up a bit is in the highly mismatched italian . phd c: yeah . yeah . professor b: an phd c: yeah there is something funny happening here because yeah . professor b: yeah . phd c: but there are thirty - six and then sometimes we are we are we are around forty - two and professor b: now up phd c: but professor b: uh so one of the ideas that you had mentioned last time was having a a second um silence detection . phd c: yeah . so there are some results here phd d: for the italian . phd c: uh so the third and the fifth line of the table phd d: for this one . professor b: so filt is what that is ? phd c: filt , yeah phd d: yeah . phd c: um yeah so it seems f for the the well match and mismatched condition it 's uh it brings something . uh but uh actually apparently there are there 's no room left for any silence detector at the server side because of the delay . uh well professor b: oh we ca n't do it . oh ok . phd c: no . phd d: for that for that we professor b: oh . phd c: uh professor b: too bad . good idea , but ca n't do it . phd c: yeah . professor b: ok . phd c: except i do n't know because they i think they are still working well . professor b: uh - huh . phd c: uh t two days ago they were still working on this trying to reduce the delay of the silence detector so but yeah if we had time perhaps we could try to find uh some kind of compromise between the delay that 's on the handset and on the server side . perhaps try to reduce the delay on the handset and but well hmm for the moment they have this large delay on the the feature computation and so we do n't professor b: ok . so alright so for now at least that 's not there you have some results with low - pass filter cepstrum does n't have a huge effect but it but it looks like it you know maybe could help in a couple places . phd c: i th professor b: uh little bit . phd c: yeah . professor b: um and um um yeah and uh let 's see what else did we have in there ? uh i guess it makes a l um at this point this is i i guess i should probably look at these others a little bit uh and you you yellowed these out uh but uh uh oh i see yeah that that one you ca n't use because of the delay . those look pretty good . um let 's see that one well even the just the the second row does n't look that bad right ? that 's just uh yeah ? phd c: yep . professor b: and and that looks like an interesting one too . phd d: mmm yeah . professor b: uh phd c: actually the yeah the second line is uh pretty much like the first line in yellow except that we do n't have this klt on the first on the left part of the diagram . we just have the features as they are . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: um professor b: yeah . yeah so when we do this weighted measure we should compare the two cuz it might even come out better . and it 's it 's it 's a little slightly simpler . phd c: mm - hmm . yeah . professor b: so so there 's so i i would put that one also as a as a maybe . uh and it yeah and it 's actually does does significantly better on the uh uh highly mismatched italian , so s and little worse on the mis on the mm case , but uh well yeah it 's worse than a few things phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so uh let 's see how that c that c c see how that comes out on their their measure and are are we running this uh for ti - digits or uh phd c: yeah . professor b: now is ti di is is that part of the result that they get for the uh development th the results that they 're supposed to get at the end of end of the month , the ti - digits are there also ? phd c: yeah . yeah . it 's included , yeah . professor b: oh ok . ok . and see what else there is here . um oh i see the one i was looking down here at the the o the row below the lower yellowed one . uh that 's uh that 's with the reduced uh klt size reduced dimensionality . phd c: mm - hmm ? yeah . yeah . professor b: what happens there is it 's around the same and so you could reduce the dimension as you were saying before a bit perhaps . phd c: yeah , it 's it 's significantly worse well but mm - hmm . professor b: it 's significantly worse it 's it 's uh it 's it 's mostly worse . phd c: exc - except for the hm phd d: for many a mismatch it 's worse . phd c: but professor b: yeah . but it is little . i mean not not by a huge amount , i do n't know . what are what are the sizes of any of these sets , i i 'm i 'm sure you told me before , but i 've forgotten . so you know how many words are in uh one of these test sets ? phd c: uh phd d: i do n't remember . professor b: about ? phd c: um it 's it depends well the well matched is generally larger than the other sets and i think it 's around two thousand or three thousand words perhaps , at least . phd d: ye but words well word i do n't know . phd c: hmm ? the words , yeah . s sentences . phd d: sentences . phd c: some sets have five hundred sentences , so . phd d: yeah . professor b: so the so the sets so the test sets are between five hundred and two thousand sentences , let 's say phd c: mmm . professor b: and each sentence on the average has four or five digits or is it most of them longer or phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah for the italian even seven digits y more or less phd c: it it d seven digits . phd d: but sometime the sentence have only one digit and sometime uh like uh the number of uh credit cards , something like that . professor b: mm - hmm . right , so between one and sixteen . see the i mean the reason i 'm asking is is is we have all these small differences and i do n't know how seriously to take them , right ? phd c: mm - hmm ? professor b: so uh i if if you had uh just you know to give an example , if you had uh um if you had a thousand words then uh a a tenth of a percent would just be one word , phd c: yeah . professor b: right ? so so it would n't mean anything . phd d: yeah . professor b: oh phd c: yeah . professor b: um so um yeah it be kind of i 'd kind of like to know what the sizes of these test sets were actually . phd c: yeah . phd d: the size that we have ? phd c: we could we could run run some kind of significance tests professor b: yeah since these well also just to know the numbers , phd c: or phd d: yeah . professor b: right . so these these are word error rates phd c: yeah . professor b: so this is on how many words . phd c: yep . phd d: yeah we have the result that the output of the htk professor b: yeah . phd d: the number of of sentences , no it 's the number is n't . phd c: yeah sure sure . yeah sure . professor b: yeah so anyway if you could just mail out what those numbers are and then then that that be great . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor b: um what else is there here ? um see the second second from the bottom it says sil , but this is some different kind of silence or thing or what was that ? phd c: uh phd d: it the the output silence of the mlp . phd c: oh yeah i see . phd d: it 's only one small experiment to know what happened . to apply also to in include also the the silence of the mlp we have the fifty - six form and the silence to pick up the silence and we include those . professor b: yes . uh - huh , uh - huh . the silence plus the klt output ? oh so you 're only using the silence . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah , because when we apply the klt phd c: no they 're i think there is this silence in addition to the um klt outputs professor b: no . phd d: in addition , yes . phd c: it is because we we we just keep uh we do n't keep all the dimensions after the klt phd d: in addition t phd c: and yeah . phd d: and we not s we are not sure if we pick we have the silence . phd c: so we try to add the silence also in addition to the these twenty - eight dimensions . professor b: i see . ok . and what and what 's ogi forty - five ? the bottom one there ? phd c: uh it 's o it 's ogi two , it 's so the th it 's the features from the first line phd d: it 's in fact ogi two . professor b: s phd c: and yeah . professor b: right , but i mean what 's the what does the last row mean ? phd c: so it 's uh basically this but without the klt on the from the left path . professor b: i thought that was the one i thought that was the second row . so what 's the difference between the second phd c: uh the second line you do n't have this combo stuff so you just professor b: oh . phd c: uh professor b: so this is like the second line but with with the combo stuff . phd c: yeah . yeah . phd d: and with the all the output of the combo . professor b: ok . yeah . phd c: yeah . phd d: uh professor b: ok , so alright so it looks to me i guess the same given that we have to take the filt ones out of the the running because of this delay problem so it looks to me like the ones you said i agree are are the ones to look at phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: but i just would add the the the second row one phd c: yeah . professor b: and then um if we can um phd c: mmm . professor b: oh yeah also when when they 're using this weighting scheme of forty , thirty - five , twenty - five is that on the percentages or on the raw errors ? i guess it 's probably on the percentages right ? phd c: uh i guess , yeah . professor b: yeah ok . phd c: i guess , yeah . mmm . professor b: alright . phd c: it 's not clear here . professor b: ok . maybe maybe they 'll argue about it . um ok so if we can know what how many words are in each and then um dave uh dave promised to get us something tomorrow which will be there as far as they 've gotten friday phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: and then we 'll operate with that phd c: yeah . professor b: and uh how long did it i guess if we 're not doing all these things if we 're only doing um um i guess since this is development data it 's legitimate to do more than one , right ? i mean ordinarily if in final test data you do n't want to do several and and take the best phd c: yeah . mmm . professor b: that 's that 's that 's not proper but if this is development data we could still look at a couple . phd c: yeah . we can yeah . sure . but we have to decide i mean we have to fix the system on this d on this data , to choose the best professor b: yeah . i right . phd c: and these professor b: but the question is when when do we fix the system , phd c: but we could professor b: do we fix the system uh tomorrow or do we fix the system on tuesday ? phd c: it d professor b: i yeah , ok except that we do have to write it up . phd c: i think we fixed on tuesday , yeah . yeah . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: also , so phd c: yeah . yeah . professor b: um phd c: uh yeah well . well basically it 's this with perhaps some kind of printing and some some other @ @ . professor b: right so maybe what we do is we we we uh as soon as we get the data from them we start the training and so forth phd c: yeah but mm - hmm . professor b: but we start the write - up right away because as you say there there 's only minor differences between these . phd c: i think you we could we could start soon , yeah . professor b: yeah . phd c: write up something . professor b: yeah , and and i i would you know , i would i 'd kind of like to see it phd c: um yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: maybe i can i can edit it a bit uh sure . the my what in this si i in this situation is my forte which is english . phd c: yeah . professor b: uh so phd c: mmm . professor b: uh h yeah . have y have you seen alt d do they have a format for how they want the system descriptions or anything ? phd c: uh not really . professor b: ok . phd c: um there is the format of the table which is quite impressive . professor b: yeah ? uh i see . yes , for those who are listening to this and not looking at it uh it 's not really that impressive , it 's just tiny . it 's all these little categories set a , set b , set c , multi - condition , clean . uh no mitigation . wow . do you know what no what no mitigation means here ? phd c: um it should be the the problem with the error channel error professor b: oh that 's probably the phd c: or professor b: this is probably channel error stuff phd c: well , you professor b: huh ? oh this is i right , it says right above here channel channel error resilience , phd c: yeah . yeah . professor b: yeah . so recognition performance is just the top part , actually . uh and they have yes , split between seen databases and non - seen so basically between development and and evaluation . phd c: yeah . professor b: and so right , it 's presumed there 's all sorts of tuning that 's gone on on the see what they call seen databases and there wo n't be tuning for the uh unseen . multi - condition multi - condition . so they have looks like they have uh uh phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so they splitting up between the ti - digits and everything else , i see . so the everything else is the speechdat - car , that 's the multi multilingual phd c: yeah , so it 's not divided between languages you mean or professor b: well , it is . phd c: it just professor b: it is , but there 's also there 's these tables over here for the for the ti - digits and these tables over here for the car data which is which is i guess all the multilingual stuff phd c: oh yeah . professor b: and then uh there 's they also split up between multi - condition and clean only . phd c: yeah . for ti - digits . professor b: yes . phd c: yeah , actually yeah . for the ti - digits they want to train on clean and on noisy professor b: yeah . phd c: and yeah . professor b: so we 're doing that also , i guess . phd c: uh yeah . but uh we actually do we have the features ? yeah . for the clean ti - digits but we did not test it yet . uh the clean training stuff . professor b: ok . phd c: mmm . professor b: well anyway , sounds like there 'll be a lot to do just to work with our partners to fill out the tables over the next uh next few days phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: yes . professor b: i guess they have to send it out let 's see the thirty - first is uh uh wednesday and i think the it has to be there by some hour uh european time on wednesday phd c: hmm - hmm . professor b: so i think basically phd d: we lost time uh wednesday maybe because that the difference in the time may be is a long different of the time . professor b: e excuse me ? phd d: maybe the thursday the twelfth of the night of the thurs - thirty - one is is not valid in europe . phd c: yeah . phd d: we do n't know is happening . professor b: yes , so i mean i think we have to actually get it done tuesday phd d: tuesday . professor b: right because i i think phd c: yeah , well . professor b: uh uh phd c: except if if it 's the thirty - one at midnight or i do n't know we can still do some work on wednesday morning . professor b: yeah well . w i is but is is it midni i thought it was actually something like five pm on phd c: yeah , well . yeah . phd d: yeah . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: was like i thought it was five pm or something , i did n't think it was midnight . i thought they said they wanted everything by phd d: yeah , five pm . professor b: well , so five pm their time is is if phd d: not five pm , three pm . professor b: three pm . phd d: three pm . professor b: alright , that 's six in the morning here . phd c: it 's d no . phd d: uh no three three a - three pm ? phd c: no , we are wondering about the the the hour that we have to eh i do n't know if it 's three pm it 's phd d: oh yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . three pm here is in europe midnight . phd c: yeah , it 's it 's midnight but professor b: yes , yes , but i did n't think it was midnight that it was due , i thought it was due at some hour during the day like five pm or something . phd d: oh ok . mm - hmm . mm - hmm , professor b: in which case phd d: maybe . professor b: so i i uh well we should look but my assumption is that we basically have to be done tuesday . um so then next thursday we can sort of have a little aftermath phd d: yeah . professor b: but then then we 'll actually have the new data which is the german and the danish phd c: yeah . professor b: but that really will be much less work because uh the system will be fixed phd c: yeah . professor b: so all we 'll do is take whatever they have and and uh and run it through the process . phd c: yeah . professor b: uh we wo n't be changing the training on anything phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so there 'll be no new training , there 'll just be new htk runs , so that 's means in some sense we can kind of relax from this after after tuesday and and uh maybe next meeting we can start talking a little bit about where we want to go from here uh in terms of uh the research . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: um you know what things uh did you think of when you were uh doing this process that uh you just did n't really have time to adequately work on uh uh so phd c: mm - hmm . yeah . professor b: what ? grad a: oh , stephane always has these great ideas and oh , but uh we do n't have time . phd c: sure . professor b: yeah . grad a: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd c: i 'm not sure these are great ideas . professor b: but they 're ideas . yeah ? oh , that was good . phd c: yeah . grad a: yeah . professor b: and and uh also it 's still true that uh i think it 's true that that we we at least got fairly consistent i improved results by running uh the uh neural net transformation in parallel with the features phd c: but professor b: rather than uh in sequence which was was your suggestion and that that that seems to have been borne out . phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: the fact that none of these are are you know , enormous is is is not too surprising most improvements are n't enormous and uh phd c: yeah . professor b: some of them are but uh i mean you have something really really wrong and you fix it you can get big and really enormous improvements phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: but uh um cuz our best improvements over the years that we 've gotten from finding bugs , but anyway ok well i i think i see where we are and everybody knows what they 're doing and is there is there anything else we should talk about or or are we done ? phd c: mm - hmm . i think it 's ok um . we so basically we will i think we 'll try to to focus on these three architectures and and perhaps i was thinking also a fourth one with just just a single klt because we did not really test that professor b: uh - huh . phd c: removing all these klt 's and putting one single klt at the end . professor b: yeah , i mean that would be pretty low maintenance to try it . phd c: yeah . professor b: uh if you can fit it in . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: oh i have yeah i do have one other piece of information which uh i should tell people outside of this group too uh i do n't know if we 're gon na need it uh but uh jeff up at the uh university of washington has uh gotten a hold of a uh uh some kind of server farm of uh of ten uh uh multiprocessor uh ibm machines rs six thousands phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: and and uh so i think each one is four processors or something or i do n't know , eight hundred megahertz or something and there 's four processors in a box and there 's ten boxes and there 's some kind of ti so if you know he 's got a lot of processing power and um we 'd have to schedule it but if we have some big jobs and we wan na wan na wan na run them he 's he 's offering it . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so . it 's uh when he was here eh uh he he used i not only every machine here but every machine on campus as far as i could tell , so so in some ways he just got his payback , but uh again i i do n't know if we 'll end up with if we 're gon na be cpu limited on anything that we 're doing in this group phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: but but if if we are that 's an offer . ok well uh you guys doing great stuff so that 's that that 's really neat and uh we 'll uh uh g do n't think we need to uh um oh well the other thing i guess that i will say is that uh the digits that we 're gon na record momentarily is starting to get are starting to get into a pretty good size collection and um in addition to the speechdat stuff we will have those to work with really pretty soon now so that 's that 's another source of data . um which is s under somewhat better control and that we can we can make measurements of the room the uh that you know if we feel there 's other measurements we do n't have that we 'd like to have we can make them and uh dave and i were just talking about that a little while ago so uh that 's another another possibility for this this kind of work . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: k , uh if nobody has anything else maybe we should go around do do our digits do our digits duty . ok . ok i 'll start . uh , let me say that again . ok . i guess we 're done .

phd c thought that it would be worthwhile to test on a single klt . the professor agreed that since it would be pretty low-maintenance , the team should do that , but only if they can fit it in .

what were the professor 's concluding comments ? </s> professor b: ok so uh today we 're looking at a number of uh things we 're trying and uh fortunately for listeners to this uh we lost some of it 's visual but um got tables in front of us . um what is what does combo mean ? phd c: so combo is um a system where we have these features that go through a network and then this same string of features but low - pass filtered with the low - pass filter used in the msg features . and so these low - pass filtered goes through m eh another mlp and then the linear output of these two mlp 's are combined just by adding the values and then there is this klt . um the output is used as uh features as well . professor b: um so let me try to restate this and see if i have it right . there is uh there is the features uh there 's the ogi features and then um those features um go through a contextual uh l l let 's take this bottom arr one pointed to by the bottom arrow . um those features go through a contextualized klt . then these features also uh get um low - pass filtered phd c: yeah . yeah so yeah i could perhaps draw this on the blackboard professor b: sure . yeah . yeah . phd c: yeah . phd d: the graph , yeah another one . professor b: yeah , that 's good . phd c: professor b: so phd c: so we have these features from ogi that goes through the three paths . professor b: yeah . three , ok . phd c: the first is a klt using several frames of the features . professor b: yeah . yeah . phd c: the second path is uh mlp also using nine frames several frames of features professor b: yeah . uh - huh . phd c: the third path is this low - pass filter . professor b: uh - huh . phd c: uh , mlp professor b: aha ! aha ! phd c: adding the outputs just like in the second propose the the proposal from for the first evaluation . professor b: yeah ? yeah . yeah . phd c: and then the klt and then the two together again . professor b: no , the klt . and those two together . that 's it . phd d: two htk . professor b: ok so that 's that 's this bottom one . phd c: um . so this is yeah professor b: and so uh and then the the the one at the top and i presume these things that uh are in yellow are in yellow because overall they 're the best ? phd c: yeah that 's the reason , yeah . professor b: oh let 's focus on them then so what 's the block diagram for the one above it ? phd c: for the f the f first yellow line you mean ? professor b: yeah . phd c: yeah so it 's uh basically s the same except that we do n't have this uh low - pass filtering so we have only two streams . phd d: step . phd c: well . there 's there 's no low low - pass processing used as additional feature stream . professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd c: um professor b: do you e um they mentioned made some uh when i was on the phone with sunil they they mentioned some weighting scheme that was used to evaluate all of these numbers . phd c: yeah . uh actually the way things seems to um well it 's uh forty percent for ti - digit , sixty for all the speechdat - cars , well all these languages . ehm the well match is forty , medium thirty five and high mismatch twenty - five . yeah . professor b: um and we do n't have the ti - digits part yet ? phd c: uh , no . professor b: ok . phd c: but yeah . generally what you observe with ti - digits is that the result are very close whatever the the system . professor b: ok . and so have you put all these numbers together into a single number representing that ? phd c: yeah . professor b: i mean not phd c: uh not yet . professor b: ok so that should be pretty easy to do and that would be good phd c: no . mmm yeah , yeah . professor b: then we could compare the two and say what was better . phd c: mmm . yeah . professor b: um and how does this compare to the numbers oh so ogi two is just the top top row ? phd d: yeah . phd c: so yeah to actually ogi two is the the baseline with the ogi features but this is not exactly the result that they have because they 've they 're still made some changes in the features professor b: ok . phd c: and well but uh actually our results are better than their results . um i do n't know by how much because they did not send us the new results professor b: ok . phd c: uh professor b: uh ok so the one one place where it looks like we 're messing things up a bit is in the highly mismatched italian . phd c: yeah . yeah . professor b: an phd c: yeah there is something funny happening here because yeah . professor b: yeah . phd c: but there are thirty - six and then sometimes we are we are we are around forty - two and professor b: now up phd c: but professor b: uh so one of the ideas that you had mentioned last time was having a a second um silence detection . phd c: yeah . so there are some results here phd d: for the italian . phd c: uh so the third and the fifth line of the table phd d: for this one . professor b: so filt is what that is ? phd c: filt , yeah phd d: yeah . phd c: um yeah so it seems f for the the well match and mismatched condition it 's uh it brings something . uh but uh actually apparently there are there 's no room left for any silence detector at the server side because of the delay . uh well professor b: oh we ca n't do it . oh ok . phd c: no . phd d: for that for that we professor b: oh . phd c: uh professor b: too bad . good idea , but ca n't do it . phd c: yeah . professor b: ok . phd c: except i do n't know because they i think they are still working well . professor b: uh - huh . phd c: uh t two days ago they were still working on this trying to reduce the delay of the silence detector so but yeah if we had time perhaps we could try to find uh some kind of compromise between the delay that 's on the handset and on the server side . perhaps try to reduce the delay on the handset and but well hmm for the moment they have this large delay on the the feature computation and so we do n't professor b: ok . so alright so for now at least that 's not there you have some results with low - pass filter cepstrum does n't have a huge effect but it but it looks like it you know maybe could help in a couple places . phd c: i th professor b: uh little bit . phd c: yeah . professor b: um and um um yeah and uh let 's see what else did we have in there ? uh i guess it makes a l um at this point this is i i guess i should probably look at these others a little bit uh and you you yellowed these out uh but uh uh oh i see yeah that that one you ca n't use because of the delay . those look pretty good . um let 's see that one well even the just the the second row does n't look that bad right ? that 's just uh yeah ? phd c: yep . professor b: and and that looks like an interesting one too . phd d: mmm yeah . professor b: uh phd c: actually the yeah the second line is uh pretty much like the first line in yellow except that we do n't have this klt on the first on the left part of the diagram . we just have the features as they are . professor b: mm - hmm . phd c: um professor b: yeah . yeah so when we do this weighted measure we should compare the two cuz it might even come out better . and it 's it 's it 's a little slightly simpler . phd c: mm - hmm . yeah . professor b: so so there 's so i i would put that one also as a as a maybe . uh and it yeah and it 's actually does does significantly better on the uh uh highly mismatched italian , so s and little worse on the mis on the mm case , but uh well yeah it 's worse than a few things phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so uh let 's see how that c that c c see how that comes out on their their measure and are are we running this uh for ti - digits or uh phd c: yeah . professor b: now is ti di is is that part of the result that they get for the uh development th the results that they 're supposed to get at the end of end of the month , the ti - digits are there also ? phd c: yeah . yeah . it 's included , yeah . professor b: oh ok . ok . and see what else there is here . um oh i see the one i was looking down here at the the o the row below the lower yellowed one . uh that 's uh that 's with the reduced uh klt size reduced dimensionality . phd c: mm - hmm ? yeah . yeah . professor b: what happens there is it 's around the same and so you could reduce the dimension as you were saying before a bit perhaps . phd c: yeah , it 's it 's significantly worse well but mm - hmm . professor b: it 's significantly worse it 's it 's uh it 's it 's mostly worse . phd c: exc - except for the hm phd d: for many a mismatch it 's worse . phd c: but professor b: yeah . but it is little . i mean not not by a huge amount , i do n't know . what are what are the sizes of any of these sets , i i 'm i 'm sure you told me before , but i 've forgotten . so you know how many words are in uh one of these test sets ? phd c: uh phd d: i do n't remember . professor b: about ? phd c: um it 's it depends well the well matched is generally larger than the other sets and i think it 's around two thousand or three thousand words perhaps , at least . phd d: ye but words well word i do n't know . phd c: hmm ? the words , yeah . s sentences . phd d: sentences . phd c: some sets have five hundred sentences , so . phd d: yeah . professor b: so the so the sets so the test sets are between five hundred and two thousand sentences , let 's say phd c: mmm . professor b: and each sentence on the average has four or five digits or is it most of them longer or phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah for the italian even seven digits y more or less phd c: it it d seven digits . phd d: but sometime the sentence have only one digit and sometime uh like uh the number of uh credit cards , something like that . professor b: mm - hmm . right , so between one and sixteen . see the i mean the reason i 'm asking is is is we have all these small differences and i do n't know how seriously to take them , right ? phd c: mm - hmm ? professor b: so uh i if if you had uh just you know to give an example , if you had uh um if you had a thousand words then uh a a tenth of a percent would just be one word , phd c: yeah . professor b: right ? so so it would n't mean anything . phd d: yeah . professor b: oh phd c: yeah . professor b: um so um yeah it be kind of i 'd kind of like to know what the sizes of these test sets were actually . phd c: yeah . phd d: the size that we have ? phd c: we could we could run run some kind of significance tests professor b: yeah since these well also just to know the numbers , phd c: or phd d: yeah . professor b: right . so these these are word error rates phd c: yeah . professor b: so this is on how many words . phd c: yep . phd d: yeah we have the result that the output of the htk professor b: yeah . phd d: the number of of sentences , no it 's the number is n't . phd c: yeah sure sure . yeah sure . professor b: yeah so anyway if you could just mail out what those numbers are and then then that that be great . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor b: um what else is there here ? um see the second second from the bottom it says sil , but this is some different kind of silence or thing or what was that ? phd c: uh phd d: it the the output silence of the mlp . phd c: oh yeah i see . phd d: it 's only one small experiment to know what happened . to apply also to in include also the the silence of the mlp we have the fifty - six form and the silence to pick up the silence and we include those . professor b: yes . uh - huh , uh - huh . the silence plus the klt output ? oh so you 're only using the silence . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah , because when we apply the klt phd c: no they 're i think there is this silence in addition to the um klt outputs professor b: no . phd d: in addition , yes . phd c: it is because we we we just keep uh we do n't keep all the dimensions after the klt phd d: in addition t phd c: and yeah . phd d: and we not s we are not sure if we pick we have the silence . phd c: so we try to add the silence also in addition to the these twenty - eight dimensions . professor b: i see . ok . and what and what 's ogi forty - five ? the bottom one there ? phd c: uh it 's o it 's ogi two , it 's so the th it 's the features from the first line phd d: it 's in fact ogi two . professor b: s phd c: and yeah . professor b: right , but i mean what 's the what does the last row mean ? phd c: so it 's uh basically this but without the klt on the from the left path . professor b: i thought that was the one i thought that was the second row . so what 's the difference between the second phd c: uh the second line you do n't have this combo stuff so you just professor b: oh . phd c: uh professor b: so this is like the second line but with with the combo stuff . phd c: yeah . yeah . phd d: and with the all the output of the combo . professor b: ok . yeah . phd c: yeah . phd d: uh professor b: ok , so alright so it looks to me i guess the same given that we have to take the filt ones out of the the running because of this delay problem so it looks to me like the ones you said i agree are are the ones to look at phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: but i just would add the the the second row one phd c: yeah . professor b: and then um if we can um phd c: mmm . professor b: oh yeah also when when they 're using this weighting scheme of forty , thirty - five , twenty - five is that on the percentages or on the raw errors ? i guess it 's probably on the percentages right ? phd c: uh i guess , yeah . professor b: yeah ok . phd c: i guess , yeah . mmm . professor b: alright . phd c: it 's not clear here . professor b: ok . maybe maybe they 'll argue about it . um ok so if we can know what how many words are in each and then um dave uh dave promised to get us something tomorrow which will be there as far as they 've gotten friday phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: and then we 'll operate with that phd c: yeah . professor b: and uh how long did it i guess if we 're not doing all these things if we 're only doing um um i guess since this is development data it 's legitimate to do more than one , right ? i mean ordinarily if in final test data you do n't want to do several and and take the best phd c: yeah . mmm . professor b: that 's that 's that 's not proper but if this is development data we could still look at a couple . phd c: yeah . we can yeah . sure . but we have to decide i mean we have to fix the system on this d on this data , to choose the best professor b: yeah . i right . phd c: and these professor b: but the question is when when do we fix the system , phd c: but we could professor b: do we fix the system uh tomorrow or do we fix the system on tuesday ? phd c: it d professor b: i yeah , ok except that we do have to write it up . phd c: i think we fixed on tuesday , yeah . yeah . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: also , so phd c: yeah . yeah . professor b: um phd c: uh yeah well . well basically it 's this with perhaps some kind of printing and some some other @ @ . professor b: right so maybe what we do is we we we uh as soon as we get the data from them we start the training and so forth phd c: yeah but mm - hmm . professor b: but we start the write - up right away because as you say there there 's only minor differences between these . phd c: i think you we could we could start soon , yeah . professor b: yeah . phd c: write up something . professor b: yeah , and and i i would you know , i would i 'd kind of like to see it phd c: um yeah . mm - hmm . professor b: maybe i can i can edit it a bit uh sure . the my what in this si i in this situation is my forte which is english . phd c: yeah . professor b: uh so phd c: mmm . professor b: uh h yeah . have y have you seen alt d do they have a format for how they want the system descriptions or anything ? phd c: uh not really . professor b: ok . phd c: um there is the format of the table which is quite impressive . professor b: yeah ? uh i see . yes , for those who are listening to this and not looking at it uh it 's not really that impressive , it 's just tiny . it 's all these little categories set a , set b , set c , multi - condition , clean . uh no mitigation . wow . do you know what no what no mitigation means here ? phd c: um it should be the the problem with the error channel error professor b: oh that 's probably the phd c: or professor b: this is probably channel error stuff phd c: well , you professor b: huh ? oh this is i right , it says right above here channel channel error resilience , phd c: yeah . yeah . professor b: yeah . so recognition performance is just the top part , actually . uh and they have yes , split between seen databases and non - seen so basically between development and and evaluation . phd c: yeah . professor b: and so right , it 's presumed there 's all sorts of tuning that 's gone on on the see what they call seen databases and there wo n't be tuning for the uh unseen . multi - condition multi - condition . so they have looks like they have uh uh phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so they splitting up between the ti - digits and everything else , i see . so the everything else is the speechdat - car , that 's the multi multilingual phd c: yeah , so it 's not divided between languages you mean or professor b: well , it is . phd c: it just professor b: it is , but there 's also there 's these tables over here for the for the ti - digits and these tables over here for the car data which is which is i guess all the multilingual stuff phd c: oh yeah . professor b: and then uh there 's they also split up between multi - condition and clean only . phd c: yeah . for ti - digits . professor b: yes . phd c: yeah , actually yeah . for the ti - digits they want to train on clean and on noisy professor b: yeah . phd c: and yeah . professor b: so we 're doing that also , i guess . phd c: uh yeah . but uh we actually do we have the features ? yeah . for the clean ti - digits but we did not test it yet . uh the clean training stuff . professor b: ok . phd c: mmm . professor b: well anyway , sounds like there 'll be a lot to do just to work with our partners to fill out the tables over the next uh next few days phd c: mm - hmm . phd d: yes . professor b: i guess they have to send it out let 's see the thirty - first is uh uh wednesday and i think the it has to be there by some hour uh european time on wednesday phd c: hmm - hmm . professor b: so i think basically phd d: we lost time uh wednesday maybe because that the difference in the time may be is a long different of the time . professor b: e excuse me ? phd d: maybe the thursday the twelfth of the night of the thurs - thirty - one is is not valid in europe . phd c: yeah . phd d: we do n't know is happening . professor b: yes , so i mean i think we have to actually get it done tuesday phd d: tuesday . professor b: right because i i think phd c: yeah , well . professor b: uh uh phd c: except if if it 's the thirty - one at midnight or i do n't know we can still do some work on wednesday morning . professor b: yeah well . w i is but is is it midni i thought it was actually something like five pm on phd c: yeah , well . yeah . phd d: yeah . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: was like i thought it was five pm or something , i did n't think it was midnight . i thought they said they wanted everything by phd d: yeah , five pm . professor b: well , so five pm their time is is if phd d: not five pm , three pm . professor b: three pm . phd d: three pm . professor b: alright , that 's six in the morning here . phd c: it 's d no . phd d: uh no three three a - three pm ? phd c: no , we are wondering about the the the hour that we have to eh i do n't know if it 's three pm it 's phd d: oh yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . three pm here is in europe midnight . phd c: yeah , it 's it 's midnight but professor b: yes , yes , but i did n't think it was midnight that it was due , i thought it was due at some hour during the day like five pm or something . phd d: oh ok . mm - hmm . mm - hmm , professor b: in which case phd d: maybe . professor b: so i i uh well we should look but my assumption is that we basically have to be done tuesday . um so then next thursday we can sort of have a little aftermath phd d: yeah . professor b: but then then we 'll actually have the new data which is the german and the danish phd c: yeah . professor b: but that really will be much less work because uh the system will be fixed phd c: yeah . professor b: so all we 'll do is take whatever they have and and uh and run it through the process . phd c: yeah . professor b: uh we wo n't be changing the training on anything phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so there 'll be no new training , there 'll just be new htk runs , so that 's means in some sense we can kind of relax from this after after tuesday and and uh maybe next meeting we can start talking a little bit about where we want to go from here uh in terms of uh the research . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: um you know what things uh did you think of when you were uh doing this process that uh you just did n't really have time to adequately work on uh uh so phd c: mm - hmm . yeah . professor b: what ? grad a: oh , stephane always has these great ideas and oh , but uh we do n't have time . phd c: sure . professor b: yeah . grad a: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd c: i 'm not sure these are great ideas . professor b: but they 're ideas . yeah ? oh , that was good . phd c: yeah . grad a: yeah . professor b: and and uh also it 's still true that uh i think it 's true that that we we at least got fairly consistent i improved results by running uh the uh neural net transformation in parallel with the features phd c: but professor b: rather than uh in sequence which was was your suggestion and that that that seems to have been borne out . phd c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: the fact that none of these are are you know , enormous is is is not too surprising most improvements are n't enormous and uh phd c: yeah . professor b: some of them are but uh i mean you have something really really wrong and you fix it you can get big and really enormous improvements phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: but uh um cuz our best improvements over the years that we 've gotten from finding bugs , but anyway ok well i i think i see where we are and everybody knows what they 're doing and is there is there anything else we should talk about or or are we done ? phd c: mm - hmm . i think it 's ok um . we so basically we will i think we 'll try to to focus on these three architectures and and perhaps i was thinking also a fourth one with just just a single klt because we did not really test that professor b: uh - huh . phd c: removing all these klt 's and putting one single klt at the end . professor b: yeah , i mean that would be pretty low maintenance to try it . phd c: yeah . professor b: uh if you can fit it in . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: oh i have yeah i do have one other piece of information which uh i should tell people outside of this group too uh i do n't know if we 're gon na need it uh but uh jeff up at the uh university of washington has uh gotten a hold of a uh uh some kind of server farm of uh of ten uh uh multiprocessor uh ibm machines rs six thousands phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: and and uh so i think each one is four processors or something or i do n't know , eight hundred megahertz or something and there 's four processors in a box and there 's ten boxes and there 's some kind of ti so if you know he 's got a lot of processing power and um we 'd have to schedule it but if we have some big jobs and we wan na wan na wan na run them he 's he 's offering it . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: so . it 's uh when he was here eh uh he he used i not only every machine here but every machine on campus as far as i could tell , so so in some ways he just got his payback , but uh again i i do n't know if we 'll end up with if we 're gon na be cpu limited on anything that we 're doing in this group phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: but but if if we are that 's an offer . ok well uh you guys doing great stuff so that 's that that 's really neat and uh we 'll uh uh g do n't think we need to uh um oh well the other thing i guess that i will say is that uh the digits that we 're gon na record momentarily is starting to get are starting to get into a pretty good size collection and um in addition to the speechdat stuff we will have those to work with really pretty soon now so that 's that 's another source of data . um which is s under somewhat better control and that we can we can make measurements of the room the uh that you know if we feel there 's other measurements we do n't have that we 'd like to have we can make them and uh dave and i were just talking about that a little while ago so uh that 's another another possibility for this this kind of work . phd c: mm - hmm . professor b: k , uh if nobody has anything else maybe we should go around do do our digits do our digits duty . ok . ok i 'll start . uh , let me say that again . ok . i guess we 're done .

the professor noted that the most important improvements over the years have been due to finding bugs . he also informed the team of some ibm processors that were available to them at the university of washington . he finally congratulated them on their efforts .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: hello , uh this meeting we are it 's fo should be focused on the conceptual design of the remote control . marketing: hello . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: hello . project manager: um the goal of this meeting is to reach a decision at the end on the concept and i think the last time we talked about an a lot and we had a rough idea of what is going to be , but uh in th at the end of this meeting we have to to reach a decision . so , uh we will have again three presentation , from all of you , and uh i hope it will be fast because i would like to have time to for long discussion and and decisions . so , who wants to start ? okay . user interface: i s marketing: okay . user interface: no , no , you you can start . project manager: so start , uh marketing: okay , i 'll start . can you open my presentation , project manager: marketing: please . project manager: uh . marketing: i 'm number four . project manager: this one ? marketing: trend . yep . can you pass the mouse , please . oh okay , that 's fine . project manager: turn . marketing: okay . um so basically i just want to presented to you present to you some recent results we 've had from um looking at uh um some remote control market research and some fashion trends around the world . um the fashion trends we got from talking to our our contacts in the fashion industry based in paris and milan . um so f from our market research basically we 've come to the conclusion that a fancy look and feel , um as opposed to a functional look and feel , is our number one priority . um fancy is is is is the , you know , highest priority . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: secondly um that our remote control needs to be techn technologically innovative . um so this is t number two priority but it 's two times less important as the fancy criteria . um and third thirdly the easiness of use is is the um is is important as well , but again two times less important as the technologically innovativeness of the remote control . from our f fashion people in paris and milan , um we 've discovered that this year um fruit the fruit and vegetable motif will be the most important thing in in clothes , shoes and furniture . so , i 'm pretty confident that our remote control fits into the furniture category . and also um the feel of material this year um is expected to be spongy . project manager: okay . marketing: um so hopefully our remote control reflects that s in some way . industrial designer: what does it mean , spongy ? marketing: uh sort of um squishy . industrial designer: like soft , or something ? marketing: um . yeah soft , project manager: marketing: like a uh like a sponge . project manager: like a sponge . yeah . marketing: i do n't know . yeah . industrial designer: okay . i will see . marketing: um so in conclusion , we need a our remote control needs to be something that 's really fancy , um has lots of technolog tech technology in it . um somehow would be good to have it related to fruit and vegetables with a spongy feel . project manager: industrial designer: okay . user interface: marketing: and that it 's easy to use and from our last meeting our you know fabian told us that w you know one of the requirements is that we have to reflect the look and feel of our of th the real reaction company . um . industrial designer: project manager: yeah , uh yeah . marketing: that 's it . project manager: easy to use , is it uh a as much as important than technology or fancy thing . it 's less important , right ? marketing: less important . project manager: yeah yeah . marketing: so um fanciness first and then two ti you know , half as important as that is technology technology , project manager: okay . marketing: and half important as technology is easy to use . so . project manager: so , hamed , can you . user interface: yeah . the second one . could you please show the presentation number three . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i think the biggest struggle will be the easy to use feature . project manager: um . number ? industrial designer: we 'll see . user interface: yeah . project manager: three . user interface: three . project manager: this one ? user interface: yes . just could you please check if it is the first one or the second . uh , n n no , it 's the first one . the second one . project manager: so it 's not this one . user interface: uh yeah . okay . okay . so i am going to talk about a little bit about how this remote control should be appear to be more easy to use . i think uh i think the feature easy to use is more important than being fancy , but okay , we can discuss about it uh later . um generally , generally uh this remote control uh uh should be should be something , in my opinion , uh the first feature is just to be easy to use . so , the more frequent buttons should be larger , they should be placed in a good position uh uh inside the remote control . and uh s uh i can conclude like this , that we should n't need to learn how to use it . it should be we should n't need to es open a a t book and uh start reading and uh learning how to use this uh this uh remote control . okay . so what i found out that uh as i said uh i think it 's better to put uh more frequent uh uh uh ke uh buttons which are used more in the middle of the remote control , and they should be bigger in size . uh the shape of remote control should be in a way which can which should be taken easily in hand . it should not be completely like uh a cube . it should be it should have round edge , so uh then it 's easier . industrial designer: exactly . user interface: and maybe uh just like some toys , some joystick which is easier to take inside the hand . and uh also f uh uh m because because customers does n't like to buy lots of battery , it should not uh consume lots of energy . okay . and my personal p uh preference is uh , as i said , uh just putting this buttons in a special places and covered some buttons which are not used uh that much like settings button , like mobile phone . usually some mobile phone cover the dialling number part , so we can cover these buttons which are not used or uh number buttons for the for the for the can channels , and just put uh volume change or s ch can uh channel change buttons uh uh in the remote control . and if the user needed to do some more complex task uh he he can open the cover and then change settings or something like this . uh . and also uh i think if we put some some some some some buttons inside of the remote control it can be used easier . not on remote control . i dunno if i can explain well . but uh just inside . for example , a sliding or rolling uh uh d uh stuff , if we put it inside then we can easily manipulate with uh thumb . so it can be another uh preference . and uh i dunno but uh i think usage of a speech recogn uh r recogniser can be good . i know that it consumes lots of energy , but if we do it in some way that it asleeps when there is no sound and when it detects some sound it may consume less energy . and i think it 's good because it 's something new and usually young people like something new . so it may not be very useful but because it 's new , people may buy it . uh i personally think there should be a big difference between uh between something . otherwise they prefer to buy something which is coming from a famous company , or . okay . that 's mine . project manager: okay . industrial designer: uh okay , so good news from me uh uh for me from hamed , but bad news from bob obviously , because spongy design , i do n't like it as marketing: project manager: industrial designer: okay , so could you please , fabien , open it . project manager: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: i 'm person two . and which one , uh probably the first one . i 'm not sure but check the first one . i most of the things i have to write myself on the board , but project manager: this one , yeah . industrial designer: yeah , that 's it . just it 's only this slide ? yeah . this this is just uh one thing i wanted to mention and show you that i just uh i just found this , that our company uh developed a s a seven f seven fingers or i 'll just marketing: inch . industrial designer: yeah , seven seven inch t_ t_f_t_ screen , which is good news for us , since we wanted to include a display there . uh so i i probably draw it down raw scheme . project manager: oh , . industrial designer: this is this is the stuff that i can use to project manager: oops . industrial designer: okay , so the this will be like the overall scheme or overall requirements from the engineering point of view . uh first thing is uh this will be the overall shape , no uh i 'm not speaking about the real shape of the device , but the shape of the inside of the device . so there will be some circuit uh for the power . so , say power circuit here . uh the main energy will be taken from batteries that we can uh uh and if we decide to use the speech recognition stuff there , we must use additional source of energy , which i found the best is to use the solar cells which can which can uh supply everything . i was computing all the all the things related to the speech recognition , and it 's okay to use just uh two batteries and solar cells , so . so no problem . there can be also solar cell . uh the main board with all the circuits will take at least seven to seven centimetres , so this is my like hard requirement for the guys from the design . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so at least seven to seven . it depends where you put your screen , because the screen is uh seven inch , so it depends on you where where you put it . marketing: industrial designer: it does n't matter . um it 's just one cord from from the main board to the screen which can be elsewhere . so this will be t_f_t_ . and on the main board we have the um interface to the microphone , which is somewhere , say here . interface to the microphone . then the graphical card uh for the t_f_t_ and the third unit is the i_r_ . the good news is that we can uh we decided to use the infra-red unit because our company has also developed the chip for communication by the infra-red , including all the stuff inside , so it will be very cheap for us . so infra-red here . so the once again the overall requirements , seven to seven centimetres for the board , which has to be which can be spongy but has to be this size , and the t_f_t_ which is seven inches . um i have to check what i wanted to uh from my point of view i do n't care about the about the material used for the overall des uh ov all the device . project manager: can you fit any uh for example a t_f_t_ or any electronic device in a spongy thing , or is there any problem for that ? for example , put electronic card on a spongy thing , i can i can imagine it could be a problem . industrial designer: a all these things in in uh in this box are okay to put in in any shape , basically . project manager: yep . industrial designer: but we have to take care of the t_f_t_ . well , sponginess . maybe it a good feature , since it takes if it 's around the t_f_t_ then it 's good , because it 's just keeps it safe , project manager: okay . so industrial designer: i dunno . user interface: well maybe it can have two shells , a hard shell inside and a spongy shell outside . marketing: so project manager: okay . maybe put electronic in a box and a spongy thing around . maybe after . industrial designer: well , it 's maybe related to the u_i_ . marketing: so project manager: yeah . marketing: ca can i ask a question . industrial designer: a yeah , that 's all from me . marketing: this seven inch t_f_t_ screen , industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: how big is it in reality ? industrial designer: well , seven to seven inches . marketing: so like that . industrial designer: yes . project manager: user interface: marketing: that 's quite big . industrial designer: marketing: uh uh have we decided that we 're gon na use this t_f_t_ screen ? project manager: no , i do n't think it 's seven by seven , industrial designer: yeah but project manager: i think it 's seven the diagonal is seven . industrial designer: to be honest , i was project manager: usually when they say seven inch i think it 's the diagonal . user interface: yeah yes . marketing: but i mean even even that is like this big . project manager: yeah . i dunno i dun i dun one each user interface: marketing: project manager: . but , yeah , . industrial designer: yeah , honestly speaking i was thinking that it was seven centimetres initially , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but it 's seven inches . but i i think we can we can cut it . marketing: you can cut the t_f_t_ screen . project manager: let 's go . industrial designer: yeah , no no problem , user interface: industrial designer: because because because then the size of the graphic card will be one fourth . project manager: so let 's cut the t_f_t_ . industrial designer: so marketing: industrial designer: yeah , but no problem to to me to cut the screen . user interface: mm . marketing: okay , so industrial designer: so so for the same price we have four screens now . project manager: mm . marketing: okay . project manager: these technical engineers , huh . marketing: so , what 's the size of the device ? industrial designer: ah well this is like this is almost nothing . seven to seven to at least well some three millimetres or something . marketing: even from my perspective seven t seven centimetres by seven centimetres is still industrial designer: yeah , but we wanted the big buttons and stuff like that , you know . marketing: is it can you hold that , or ? industrial designer: because if it 's t too small we can we can lose it , at home , you know . project manager: what user wants . he wants a small remote control , or ? uh uh with big buttons . user interface: uh . industrial designer: i thought that it it should fit in the hand or something . marketing: yeah , a small c control that they can hold in hand . project manager: it 's difficult . user interface: yes . project manager: a sm industrial designer: marketing: but is something that 's seven centimetres square e easy to hold ? user interface: industrial designer: w i i think so . i if the roller buttons are on the side you do n't have to catch it like that , but just like this , and you know follow follow well , that 's that 's no task for me , but well seven to seven at least yeah , project manager: so maybe you can finish your presentation , user interface: project manager: and afterwards we will discuss about all this . industrial designer: but oh , okay . user interface: maybe this . marketing: okay . industrial designer: okay thanks . project manager: that 's it . okay . so . no . uh , so i think we have a lot we have to take decision today , so i think we have to do some work to finalise our idea and take decisions . uh first i think energy it 's a key problem because uh it depend what can we have as feature if we use only batteries , for example , or something like that . because can we have lcd and speech recognition with battery , and it 's also r related to the size of the of the devi of the device ? industrial designer: not j uh just a point to the energy th things . if we use the batteries , and the additional so solar cell , then it 's okay for l_ uh speech recognition and lcd , project manager: okay . industrial designer: so no problem in energy , i think . project manager: so okay . industrial designer: but we have to use the solar cell . user interface: so but project manager: uh like industrial designer: otherwise not . project manager: but using how many batteries , for example ? are are what maybe what is the size of the battery industrial designer: yeah i was thinking just common a_a_ cells . project manager: okay . uh one two industrial designer: so like three to five centimetres , project manager: okay . industrial designer: i dunno exactly , but . marketing: so if we use s solar cells , um where is the sun if someone 's watching tv inside ? industrial designer: s uh d does n't need to be sun . it it 's just the daylight , you know . marketing: okay . project manager: the television lights . industrial designer: yeah well i i suppose that i suppose that uh that this remote control wo n't be in the in the room like this , where there is light only when when there are people , but . user interface: marketing: project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: at least when there is tv you can get light from the tv . industrial designer: yeah from the t_ user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i do n't think it 's enough , uh . project manager: i dunno . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . mm . industrial designer: ah it 's a it 's a compromise , no ? marketing: project manager: at least it 's new and maybe technology new technology . industrial designer: yeah , that 's why i wanted to to include the speech recognition , because you wanted all the new things . marketing: it 's it 's quite innovative , yes . project manager: yeah . user interface: hmm . project manager: um . marketing: and if you watch tv outside it 's very useful . user interface: project manager: so i think before talking about the other thing , it 's important thing it 's the case . industrial designer: project manager: uh what what are gon na be the size , because its weight drives the other what we are going to use as features and so on . for example for the for the lcd , if we choose to have a small device , we can not use this um a such a a a screen . industrial designer: uh the s the screen is okay , but the board , uh that 's the problem . well what what would you guess as a shape ? or what what would be the shape ? user interface: mm . i think i think their being uh large or small is not important . the only important thing is to be able to take it in uh inside hand easily . so let 's say an average size , okay , industrial designer: mm . user interface: and it should not be very heavy also . and i prefer to is it should n't have a uniform shape , so in the middle it should be a little bit thinner , maybe maybe . so we c it 's like like some joysticks . you can take uh some some joystick you can take inside hand easier because it 's it 's designed for your f uh taking into account your finger shape and your palm shape . so the general shape should be like this . i think uh seven centimetre by seven centimetre is a little bit large . so uh seven not seven but let 's say five by ten it 's i think it 's that 's my opinion . it 's easier . industrial designer: okay . marketing: which is the same area . industrial designer: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: could you re could you redesign your board ? industrial designer: five to ten . well that marketing: oh , five five centimetres by ten centimetres . industrial designer: yeah , right . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , i think it 's feasib well one um um how could we do it ? we could put the board next to , well , under the lcd and for example make the lcd be totally unrelated to the thing that you hold in your hand . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like holding something , and the lcd to be just on top of it , you know somehow . well but maybe let 's stick to the s spongy thing , like one unit . project manager: oh . i 've i s i think the easiest thing would be to to have a smaller lcd , if it 's possible . industrial designer: well fi five to ten it would be feasible . user interface: mm . industrial designer: okay , so five to ten , i i think it 's it 's feasible . project manager: okay . so we are agree with a small industrial designer: i 'll make it . user interface: or uh or i do n't know project manager: lcd . industrial designer: fo five by ten . user interface: but i do n't want to now invent something new , because we did n't discuss about it . so using some lcds we can touch , so we can remove uh keys and just uh having uh , i dunno the name , lcd responding to fingers . project manager: yeah . user interface: touching the screen . something like project manager: tactile or something , yeah . user interface: mm like tactile . marketing: mm , touch screen . project manager: touch screen , yeah . user interface: so but for now if we do n't want to use such kind of screens i i think we using a a smaller screen is better , project manager: yeah . user interface: because project manager: the problem is we have a limit in a month of time , so we can not do something very new . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: project manager: so let 's go for a small lcd . marketing: so industrial designer: okay , so yeah , so so just just give me the the the five by ten numbers that you find the best and send it me user interface: a smaller s project manager: yeah okay . user interface: okay . project manager: so , five by s ten . industrial designer: and i will work it out . marketing: industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um so what about , so the case we talked about . um something easy to use , you said something easy to use but how does that fit in a fashion way , like with fruit and vegetable , and about the colour and logo of the of the company and so on , now , can we do that ? my first idea is because our colour is more yellow , and the it should be easy to take in a hand , i thought about banana , or something like that , which is fruits , and industrial designer: seven to ten banana . project manager: a big banana . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: okay . rather mango or something or . project manager: um . marketing: well it 's it 's definitely the obvious choice , with the colour of our company . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: marketing: i mean what other what other fruit and vegetables project manager: but it 's just an idea . i dunno what you think about , but marketing: do you know of any any other fruit and vegetables that are yellow ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: i dunno if it can fit with the technology . you are the specialists of that . industrial designer: you mean banana . project manager: industrial designer: well , but if it 's if it if the banana is big enough . project manager: so marketing: user interface: industrial designer: then , yes . but if you want to look at the screen , no . well user interface: project manager: yeah , and industrial designer: user interface: i think this is not good . project manager: the screen has to be square ? or it can be like a a shape , quite , uh with curves . industrial designer: well , it can be whatever you want . project manager: it could . industrial designer: but if it 's square then we get four screens out of one by cutting just . but if you want some shape then we can only get like two screens out of seven to seven inches , so . marketing: project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: it 's like more more expensive to have shape like that . but i do n't care . you know , if we fit this requirement . marketing: well i 'd like a shaped screen . i think that 's more important than saving a bit of money on on the t_f_t_ screen . project manager: okay industrial designer: okay project manager: okay . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah , m maybe the banana could be like a bit uh fatter than than the c c common one . project manager: yeah . yeah , it should remember banana , but it 's not does n't have to b to be uh uh really the size and exactly the shape of a banana . user interface: industrial designer: but user interface: industrial designer: like modified banana , okay . project manager: so we are agree with the banana thing ? industrial designer: well it we 'll stick to banana , or ? user interface: okay . marketing: yeah , banana 's good . project manager: okay . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . industrial designer: mm-mm . project manager: so , the last point we decided it 's infra-red , i guess . user interface: yeah , i think infra-red . project manager: everybody 's agreed . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . sure . project manager: uh , so that 's it i think about the concepts . you have other thing to add to this point , or uh no ? so , uh about the user interface , so we are going to use lcd . in the last meeting we talked about uh hidden buttons . i do n't know what we are going to do with that . you talked about the buttons on the side industrial designer: like like peeling of the banana you s user interface: yeah , peeling of the banana . project manager: mm what ? industrial designer: it would be cool , yeah . user interface: industrial designer: peeling of the banana , you know , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: should should discover the other buttons , which are hidden . user interface: yeah . marketing: user interface: mm . marketing: project manager: okay . and you mean the first layer would be spongy . user interface: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: first layer obviously spo yeah , project manager: so industrial designer: w it 's it 's like silly , but the people will really appreciate it , yeah i think . project manager: is it is it possible to do that ? it would be a great idea , but is it possible technically ? user interface: uh project manager: like doing a spongy layer of the banana , and you open it . marketing: i think if we if we have a spongy layer on the outside of the banana then it 's easy to make that , project manager: yeah . marketing: you know , to manipulate that to hav be a cover that you can pull off and user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah , some something like a plastic cover covering uh some interface , u_s_b_ interface as in the in uh digital camera . if you see it 's like peeling . you open a plastic cover and you see some u_s_b_ interfaces , some some interfaces for adaptor . so keys can be uh buttons can be covered like this , with a plastic cover and uh when uh and when you open this cover it 's like peeling a banana . so , something like this . project manager: yeah , but do you see that as a rigid thing , or like like a banana , something very soft , you can open like banana , or . industrial designer: well is it possible to make it soft ? user interface: yeah , yeah , yeah it 's a lic like a plastic cover , so . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so i think if it 's so then it 's cool ? project manager: so , i dunno what you think , bob , but it would be great for users i think , and very good for marketing . marketing: i think for sure . definitely . the softer the better . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: cool . user interface: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: honestly speaking , i can not imagine it , so far , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but it will be terrible . user interface: project manager: um . and setting buttons hidden in . industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm , other remarks , or something , or . something we did n't talk about yes yet , or . i think we are almost there . uh maybe , how can we , if we have a soft thing , like this , and to open it we have to attach it somewhere , i dunno how to do that technically , or . industrial designer: project manager: and how user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: pof . marketing: we could use velcro . project manager: yeah , maybe . marketing: or uh ma maybe a magnetic user interface: yes , yeah it 's a good idea . marketing: thing . project manager: ma magnetic oh . user interface: magnetic . mm . yeah or a yeah it can is it can be a plastic cover uh sticking to the to the all the stuff like uh with magnetic p uh magnetic uh magnetic uh materials in the border , so it 's it sticks like refrigerator door , completely . project manager: okay . user interface: and when you try to open it , it will be opened easily . so you you can be sure that it will not be open while you 're uh while while uh you are commonly using uh buttons on the banana . project manager: okay . and what would be the matter here of the first layer i mean ? mm . likes . soft plastic , or marketing: yeah , i imagine some sort of vinyl thing . project manager: yeah , yeah , yeah . marketing: in a in a sort of a with a suede sort of feel . maybe . industrial designer: well since since the since the things like the like the screen and um how to say that , solar cell has to be has to be like kept kept in the shape , we can not b uh so we need that the that the peeling uh i dunno but we should we should take care of these two two things . so , if if uh the solar cell wo n't be visible while the banana is closed , then the material must be able to put the light inside , you know . so that we can reach the energy out of it out of that . user interface: mm . marketing: mm . so you 're saying is it possible to have a solar cell and this removable cover and industrial designer: it is possible , but , well if it marketing: and a and a banana . industrial designer: i dunno . user interface: mm . industrial designer: i dunno how to how to do it if if t if to if it 's better to put the solar cell to the t to the peeling or outside it , or or inside . project manager: hmm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but then it must be some window there , you know . marketing: okay . user interface: mm . project manager: and something we forgot , maybe , uh about the speech recognition system , are we going to use it , or not ? marketing: user interface: yes , i think . i think so . marketing: i think it 's important . project manager: it i yeah , it seems feasible , and it would be something very great . marketing: i think one of our p priorities is tech technology . project manager: so we have the de design , the a good shape , new and so on , user interface: mm . marketing: and user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: and we have also the technology thing w will be . and even the easy to use thing , user interface: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so it will be perfect . user interface: mm . project manager: so we add also the speech recognition device . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . i agree . project manager: so , that great . we have decided everything . and think we are on a good way . so , um uh the next meeting will start in thirty minutes . um , so uh the the industrial manager uh will uh will work on the look and feel design . the user interface uh uh mana uh manager will work on the user interface device . and the the marketing expert will do the first project evaluation . marketing: okay . project manager: so , i hope you can do that in thirty minutes . marketing: user interface: project manager: and uh , yeah , i uh i think you should work together , s you uh hamed and peter , to work uh in a in a first prototype , and uh more about the shape and so on and how you can manage to put everything together . and um as usual you will receive some specific instructions on . so thank you all everybody , industrial designer: okay . project manager: and see you in thirty minutes . marketing: okay . industrial designer: okay . marketing: thank you .

the meeting was mainly about the conceptual design of the remote control . firstly , marketing introduced market research and fashion trends around the world . while the user interface emphasized that easy to use was more important . then the industrial designer talked about the overall requirements from the engineering point of view , including the size of the device and source of energy . the group members spent time figuring out the real size of the tft screen and energy problem . after that , they discussed the shape of the remote control and decided to make it like a banana . based on this shape , they talked about the detailed design of the appearance and user interface .

summarize the discussion about the result of marketing research and fashion trends . </s> project manager: hello , uh this meeting we are it 's fo should be focused on the conceptual design of the remote control . marketing: hello . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: hello . project manager: um the goal of this meeting is to reach a decision at the end on the concept and i think the last time we talked about an a lot and we had a rough idea of what is going to be , but uh in th at the end of this meeting we have to to reach a decision . so , uh we will have again three presentation , from all of you , and uh i hope it will be fast because i would like to have time to for long discussion and and decisions . so , who wants to start ? okay . user interface: i s marketing: okay . user interface: no , no , you you can start . project manager: so start , uh marketing: okay , i 'll start . can you open my presentation , project manager: marketing: please . project manager: uh . marketing: i 'm number four . project manager: this one ? marketing: trend . yep . can you pass the mouse , please . oh okay , that 's fine . project manager: turn . marketing: okay . um so basically i just want to presented to you present to you some recent results we 've had from um looking at uh um some remote control market research and some fashion trends around the world . um the fashion trends we got from talking to our our contacts in the fashion industry based in paris and milan . um so f from our market research basically we 've come to the conclusion that a fancy look and feel , um as opposed to a functional look and feel , is our number one priority . um fancy is is is is the , you know , highest priority . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: secondly um that our remote control needs to be techn technologically innovative . um so this is t number two priority but it 's two times less important as the fancy criteria . um and third thirdly the easiness of use is is the um is is important as well , but again two times less important as the technologically innovativeness of the remote control . from our f fashion people in paris and milan , um we 've discovered that this year um fruit the fruit and vegetable motif will be the most important thing in in clothes , shoes and furniture . so , i 'm pretty confident that our remote control fits into the furniture category . and also um the feel of material this year um is expected to be spongy . project manager: okay . marketing: um so hopefully our remote control reflects that s in some way . industrial designer: what does it mean , spongy ? marketing: uh sort of um squishy . industrial designer: like soft , or something ? marketing: um . yeah soft , project manager: marketing: like a uh like a sponge . project manager: like a sponge . yeah . marketing: i do n't know . yeah . industrial designer: okay . i will see . marketing: um so in conclusion , we need a our remote control needs to be something that 's really fancy , um has lots of technolog tech technology in it . um somehow would be good to have it related to fruit and vegetables with a spongy feel . project manager: industrial designer: okay . user interface: marketing: and that it 's easy to use and from our last meeting our you know fabian told us that w you know one of the requirements is that we have to reflect the look and feel of our of th the real reaction company . um . industrial designer: project manager: yeah , uh yeah . marketing: that 's it . project manager: easy to use , is it uh a as much as important than technology or fancy thing . it 's less important , right ? marketing: less important . project manager: yeah yeah . marketing: so um fanciness first and then two ti you know , half as important as that is technology technology , project manager: okay . marketing: and half important as technology is easy to use . so . project manager: so , hamed , can you . user interface: yeah . the second one . could you please show the presentation number three . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i think the biggest struggle will be the easy to use feature . project manager: um . number ? industrial designer: we 'll see . user interface: yeah . project manager: three . user interface: three . project manager: this one ? user interface: yes . just could you please check if it is the first one or the second . uh , n n no , it 's the first one . the second one . project manager: so it 's not this one . user interface: uh yeah . okay . okay . so i am going to talk about a little bit about how this remote control should be appear to be more easy to use . i think uh i think the feature easy to use is more important than being fancy , but okay , we can discuss about it uh later . um generally , generally uh this remote control uh uh should be should be something , in my opinion , uh the first feature is just to be easy to use . so , the more frequent buttons should be larger , they should be placed in a good position uh uh inside the remote control . and uh s uh i can conclude like this , that we should n't need to learn how to use it . it should be we should n't need to es open a a t book and uh start reading and uh learning how to use this uh this uh remote control . okay . so what i found out that uh as i said uh i think it 's better to put uh more frequent uh uh uh ke uh buttons which are used more in the middle of the remote control , and they should be bigger in size . uh the shape of remote control should be in a way which can which should be taken easily in hand . it should not be completely like uh a cube . it should be it should have round edge , so uh then it 's easier . industrial designer: exactly . user interface: and maybe uh just like some toys , some joystick which is easier to take inside the hand . and uh also f uh uh m because because customers does n't like to buy lots of battery , it should not uh consume lots of energy . okay . and my personal p uh preference is uh , as i said , uh just putting this buttons in a special places and covered some buttons which are not used uh that much like settings button , like mobile phone . usually some mobile phone cover the dialling number part , so we can cover these buttons which are not used or uh number buttons for the for the for the can channels , and just put uh volume change or s ch can uh channel change buttons uh uh in the remote control . and if the user needed to do some more complex task uh he he can open the cover and then change settings or something like this . uh . and also uh i think if we put some some some some some buttons inside of the remote control it can be used easier . not on remote control . i dunno if i can explain well . but uh just inside . for example , a sliding or rolling uh uh d uh stuff , if we put it inside then we can easily manipulate with uh thumb . so it can be another uh preference . and uh i dunno but uh i think usage of a speech recogn uh r recogniser can be good . i know that it consumes lots of energy , but if we do it in some way that it asleeps when there is no sound and when it detects some sound it may consume less energy . and i think it 's good because it 's something new and usually young people like something new . so it may not be very useful but because it 's new , people may buy it . uh i personally think there should be a big difference between uh between something . otherwise they prefer to buy something which is coming from a famous company , or . okay . that 's mine . project manager: okay . industrial designer: uh okay , so good news from me uh uh for me from hamed , but bad news from bob obviously , because spongy design , i do n't like it as marketing: project manager: industrial designer: okay , so could you please , fabien , open it . project manager: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: i 'm person two . and which one , uh probably the first one . i 'm not sure but check the first one . i most of the things i have to write myself on the board , but project manager: this one , yeah . industrial designer: yeah , that 's it . just it 's only this slide ? yeah . this this is just uh one thing i wanted to mention and show you that i just uh i just found this , that our company uh developed a s a seven f seven fingers or i 'll just marketing: inch . industrial designer: yeah , seven seven inch t_ t_f_t_ screen , which is good news for us , since we wanted to include a display there . uh so i i probably draw it down raw scheme . project manager: oh , . industrial designer: this is this is the stuff that i can use to project manager: oops . industrial designer: okay , so the this will be like the overall scheme or overall requirements from the engineering point of view . uh first thing is uh this will be the overall shape , no uh i 'm not speaking about the real shape of the device , but the shape of the inside of the device . so there will be some circuit uh for the power . so , say power circuit here . uh the main energy will be taken from batteries that we can uh uh and if we decide to use the speech recognition stuff there , we must use additional source of energy , which i found the best is to use the solar cells which can which can uh supply everything . i was computing all the all the things related to the speech recognition , and it 's okay to use just uh two batteries and solar cells , so . so no problem . there can be also solar cell . uh the main board with all the circuits will take at least seven to seven centimetres , so this is my like hard requirement for the guys from the design . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so at least seven to seven . it depends where you put your screen , because the screen is uh seven inch , so it depends on you where where you put it . marketing: industrial designer: it does n't matter . um it 's just one cord from from the main board to the screen which can be elsewhere . so this will be t_f_t_ . and on the main board we have the um interface to the microphone , which is somewhere , say here . interface to the microphone . then the graphical card uh for the t_f_t_ and the third unit is the i_r_ . the good news is that we can uh we decided to use the infra-red unit because our company has also developed the chip for communication by the infra-red , including all the stuff inside , so it will be very cheap for us . so infra-red here . so the once again the overall requirements , seven to seven centimetres for the board , which has to be which can be spongy but has to be this size , and the t_f_t_ which is seven inches . um i have to check what i wanted to uh from my point of view i do n't care about the about the material used for the overall des uh ov all the device . project manager: can you fit any uh for example a t_f_t_ or any electronic device in a spongy thing , or is there any problem for that ? for example , put electronic card on a spongy thing , i can i can imagine it could be a problem . industrial designer: a all these things in in uh in this box are okay to put in in any shape , basically . project manager: yep . industrial designer: but we have to take care of the t_f_t_ . well , sponginess . maybe it a good feature , since it takes if it 's around the t_f_t_ then it 's good , because it 's just keeps it safe , project manager: okay . so industrial designer: i dunno . user interface: well maybe it can have two shells , a hard shell inside and a spongy shell outside . marketing: so project manager: okay . maybe put electronic in a box and a spongy thing around . maybe after . industrial designer: well , it 's maybe related to the u_i_ . marketing: so project manager: yeah . marketing: ca can i ask a question . industrial designer: a yeah , that 's all from me . marketing: this seven inch t_f_t_ screen , industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: how big is it in reality ? industrial designer: well , seven to seven inches . marketing: so like that . industrial designer: yes . project manager: user interface: marketing: that 's quite big . industrial designer: marketing: uh uh have we decided that we 're gon na use this t_f_t_ screen ? project manager: no , i do n't think it 's seven by seven , industrial designer: yeah but project manager: i think it 's seven the diagonal is seven . industrial designer: to be honest , i was project manager: usually when they say seven inch i think it 's the diagonal . user interface: yeah yes . marketing: but i mean even even that is like this big . project manager: yeah . i dunno i dun i dun one each user interface: marketing: project manager: . but , yeah , . industrial designer: yeah , honestly speaking i was thinking that it was seven centimetres initially , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but it 's seven inches . but i i think we can we can cut it . marketing: you can cut the t_f_t_ screen . project manager: let 's go . industrial designer: yeah , no no problem , user interface: industrial designer: because because because then the size of the graphic card will be one fourth . project manager: so let 's cut the t_f_t_ . industrial designer: so marketing: industrial designer: yeah , but no problem to to me to cut the screen . user interface: mm . marketing: okay , so industrial designer: so so for the same price we have four screens now . project manager: mm . marketing: okay . project manager: these technical engineers , huh . marketing: so , what 's the size of the device ? industrial designer: ah well this is like this is almost nothing . seven to seven to at least well some three millimetres or something . marketing: even from my perspective seven t seven centimetres by seven centimetres is still industrial designer: yeah , but we wanted the big buttons and stuff like that , you know . marketing: is it can you hold that , or ? industrial designer: because if it 's t too small we can we can lose it , at home , you know . project manager: what user wants . he wants a small remote control , or ? uh uh with big buttons . user interface: uh . industrial designer: i thought that it it should fit in the hand or something . marketing: yeah , a small c control that they can hold in hand . project manager: it 's difficult . user interface: yes . project manager: a sm industrial designer: marketing: but is something that 's seven centimetres square e easy to hold ? user interface: industrial designer: w i i think so . i if the roller buttons are on the side you do n't have to catch it like that , but just like this , and you know follow follow well , that 's that 's no task for me , but well seven to seven at least yeah , project manager: so maybe you can finish your presentation , user interface: project manager: and afterwards we will discuss about all this . industrial designer: but oh , okay . user interface: maybe this . marketing: okay . industrial designer: okay thanks . project manager: that 's it . okay . so . no . uh , so i think we have a lot we have to take decision today , so i think we have to do some work to finalise our idea and take decisions . uh first i think energy it 's a key problem because uh it depend what can we have as feature if we use only batteries , for example , or something like that . because can we have lcd and speech recognition with battery , and it 's also r related to the size of the of the devi of the device ? industrial designer: not j uh just a point to the energy th things . if we use the batteries , and the additional so solar cell , then it 's okay for l_ uh speech recognition and lcd , project manager: okay . industrial designer: so no problem in energy , i think . project manager: so okay . industrial designer: but we have to use the solar cell . user interface: so but project manager: uh like industrial designer: otherwise not . project manager: but using how many batteries , for example ? are are what maybe what is the size of the battery industrial designer: yeah i was thinking just common a_a_ cells . project manager: okay . uh one two industrial designer: so like three to five centimetres , project manager: okay . industrial designer: i dunno exactly , but . marketing: so if we use s solar cells , um where is the sun if someone 's watching tv inside ? industrial designer: s uh d does n't need to be sun . it it 's just the daylight , you know . marketing: okay . project manager: the television lights . industrial designer: yeah well i i suppose that i suppose that uh that this remote control wo n't be in the in the room like this , where there is light only when when there are people , but . user interface: marketing: project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: at least when there is tv you can get light from the tv . industrial designer: yeah from the t_ user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i do n't think it 's enough , uh . project manager: i dunno . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . mm . industrial designer: ah it 's a it 's a compromise , no ? marketing: project manager: at least it 's new and maybe technology new technology . industrial designer: yeah , that 's why i wanted to to include the speech recognition , because you wanted all the new things . marketing: it 's it 's quite innovative , yes . project manager: yeah . user interface: hmm . project manager: um . marketing: and if you watch tv outside it 's very useful . user interface: project manager: so i think before talking about the other thing , it 's important thing it 's the case . industrial designer: project manager: uh what what are gon na be the size , because its weight drives the other what we are going to use as features and so on . for example for the for the lcd , if we choose to have a small device , we can not use this um a such a a a screen . industrial designer: uh the s the screen is okay , but the board , uh that 's the problem . well what what would you guess as a shape ? or what what would be the shape ? user interface: mm . i think i think their being uh large or small is not important . the only important thing is to be able to take it in uh inside hand easily . so let 's say an average size , okay , industrial designer: mm . user interface: and it should not be very heavy also . and i prefer to is it should n't have a uniform shape , so in the middle it should be a little bit thinner , maybe maybe . so we c it 's like like some joysticks . you can take uh some some joystick you can take inside hand easier because it 's it 's designed for your f uh taking into account your finger shape and your palm shape . so the general shape should be like this . i think uh seven centimetre by seven centimetre is a little bit large . so uh seven not seven but let 's say five by ten it 's i think it 's that 's my opinion . it 's easier . industrial designer: okay . marketing: which is the same area . industrial designer: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: could you re could you redesign your board ? industrial designer: five to ten . well that marketing: oh , five five centimetres by ten centimetres . industrial designer: yeah , right . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , i think it 's feasib well one um um how could we do it ? we could put the board next to , well , under the lcd and for example make the lcd be totally unrelated to the thing that you hold in your hand . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like holding something , and the lcd to be just on top of it , you know somehow . well but maybe let 's stick to the s spongy thing , like one unit . project manager: oh . i 've i s i think the easiest thing would be to to have a smaller lcd , if it 's possible . industrial designer: well fi five to ten it would be feasible . user interface: mm . industrial designer: okay , so five to ten , i i think it 's it 's feasible . project manager: okay . so we are agree with a small industrial designer: i 'll make it . user interface: or uh or i do n't know project manager: lcd . industrial designer: fo five by ten . user interface: but i do n't want to now invent something new , because we did n't discuss about it . so using some lcds we can touch , so we can remove uh keys and just uh having uh , i dunno the name , lcd responding to fingers . project manager: yeah . user interface: touching the screen . something like project manager: tactile or something , yeah . user interface: mm like tactile . marketing: mm , touch screen . project manager: touch screen , yeah . user interface: so but for now if we do n't want to use such kind of screens i i think we using a a smaller screen is better , project manager: yeah . user interface: because project manager: the problem is we have a limit in a month of time , so we can not do something very new . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: project manager: so let 's go for a small lcd . marketing: so industrial designer: okay , so yeah , so so just just give me the the the five by ten numbers that you find the best and send it me user interface: a smaller s project manager: yeah okay . user interface: okay . project manager: so , five by s ten . industrial designer: and i will work it out . marketing: industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um so what about , so the case we talked about . um something easy to use , you said something easy to use but how does that fit in a fashion way , like with fruit and vegetable , and about the colour and logo of the of the company and so on , now , can we do that ? my first idea is because our colour is more yellow , and the it should be easy to take in a hand , i thought about banana , or something like that , which is fruits , and industrial designer: seven to ten banana . project manager: a big banana . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: okay . rather mango or something or . project manager: um . marketing: well it 's it 's definitely the obvious choice , with the colour of our company . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: marketing: i mean what other what other fruit and vegetables project manager: but it 's just an idea . i dunno what you think about , but marketing: do you know of any any other fruit and vegetables that are yellow ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: i dunno if it can fit with the technology . you are the specialists of that . industrial designer: you mean banana . project manager: industrial designer: well , but if it 's if it if the banana is big enough . project manager: so marketing: user interface: industrial designer: then , yes . but if you want to look at the screen , no . well user interface: project manager: yeah , and industrial designer: user interface: i think this is not good . project manager: the screen has to be square ? or it can be like a a shape , quite , uh with curves . industrial designer: well , it can be whatever you want . project manager: it could . industrial designer: but if it 's square then we get four screens out of one by cutting just . but if you want some shape then we can only get like two screens out of seven to seven inches , so . marketing: project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: it 's like more more expensive to have shape like that . but i do n't care . you know , if we fit this requirement . marketing: well i 'd like a shaped screen . i think that 's more important than saving a bit of money on on the t_f_t_ screen . project manager: okay industrial designer: okay project manager: okay . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah , m maybe the banana could be like a bit uh fatter than than the c c common one . project manager: yeah . yeah , it should remember banana , but it 's not does n't have to b to be uh uh really the size and exactly the shape of a banana . user interface: industrial designer: but user interface: industrial designer: like modified banana , okay . project manager: so we are agree with the banana thing ? industrial designer: well it we 'll stick to banana , or ? user interface: okay . marketing: yeah , banana 's good . project manager: okay . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . industrial designer: mm-mm . project manager: so , the last point we decided it 's infra-red , i guess . user interface: yeah , i think infra-red . project manager: everybody 's agreed . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . sure . project manager: uh , so that 's it i think about the concepts . you have other thing to add to this point , or uh no ? so , uh about the user interface , so we are going to use lcd . in the last meeting we talked about uh hidden buttons . i do n't know what we are going to do with that . you talked about the buttons on the side industrial designer: like like peeling of the banana you s user interface: yeah , peeling of the banana . project manager: mm what ? industrial designer: it would be cool , yeah . user interface: industrial designer: peeling of the banana , you know , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: should should discover the other buttons , which are hidden . user interface: yeah . marketing: user interface: mm . marketing: project manager: okay . and you mean the first layer would be spongy . user interface: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: first layer obviously spo yeah , project manager: so industrial designer: w it 's it 's like silly , but the people will really appreciate it , yeah i think . project manager: is it is it possible to do that ? it would be a great idea , but is it possible technically ? user interface: uh project manager: like doing a spongy layer of the banana , and you open it . marketing: i think if we if we have a spongy layer on the outside of the banana then it 's easy to make that , project manager: yeah . marketing: you know , to manipulate that to hav be a cover that you can pull off and user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah , some something like a plastic cover covering uh some interface , u_s_b_ interface as in the in uh digital camera . if you see it 's like peeling . you open a plastic cover and you see some u_s_b_ interfaces , some some interfaces for adaptor . so keys can be uh buttons can be covered like this , with a plastic cover and uh when uh and when you open this cover it 's like peeling a banana . so , something like this . project manager: yeah , but do you see that as a rigid thing , or like like a banana , something very soft , you can open like banana , or . industrial designer: well is it possible to make it soft ? user interface: yeah , yeah , yeah it 's a lic like a plastic cover , so . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so i think if it 's so then it 's cool ? project manager: so , i dunno what you think , bob , but it would be great for users i think , and very good for marketing . marketing: i think for sure . definitely . the softer the better . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: cool . user interface: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: honestly speaking , i can not imagine it , so far , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but it will be terrible . user interface: project manager: um . and setting buttons hidden in . industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm , other remarks , or something , or . something we did n't talk about yes yet , or . i think we are almost there . uh maybe , how can we , if we have a soft thing , like this , and to open it we have to attach it somewhere , i dunno how to do that technically , or . industrial designer: project manager: and how user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: pof . marketing: we could use velcro . project manager: yeah , maybe . marketing: or uh ma maybe a magnetic user interface: yes , yeah it 's a good idea . marketing: thing . project manager: ma magnetic oh . user interface: magnetic . mm . yeah or a yeah it can is it can be a plastic cover uh sticking to the to the all the stuff like uh with magnetic p uh magnetic uh magnetic uh materials in the border , so it 's it sticks like refrigerator door , completely . project manager: okay . user interface: and when you try to open it , it will be opened easily . so you you can be sure that it will not be open while you 're uh while while uh you are commonly using uh buttons on the banana . project manager: okay . and what would be the matter here of the first layer i mean ? mm . likes . soft plastic , or marketing: yeah , i imagine some sort of vinyl thing . project manager: yeah , yeah , yeah . marketing: in a in a sort of a with a suede sort of feel . maybe . industrial designer: well since since the since the things like the like the screen and um how to say that , solar cell has to be has to be like kept kept in the shape , we can not b uh so we need that the that the peeling uh i dunno but we should we should take care of these two two things . so , if if uh the solar cell wo n't be visible while the banana is closed , then the material must be able to put the light inside , you know . so that we can reach the energy out of it out of that . user interface: mm . marketing: mm . so you 're saying is it possible to have a solar cell and this removable cover and industrial designer: it is possible , but , well if it marketing: and a and a banana . industrial designer: i dunno . user interface: mm . industrial designer: i dunno how to how to do it if if t if to if it 's better to put the solar cell to the t to the peeling or outside it , or or inside . project manager: hmm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but then it must be some window there , you know . marketing: okay . user interface: mm . project manager: and something we forgot , maybe , uh about the speech recognition system , are we going to use it , or not ? marketing: user interface: yes , i think . i think so . marketing: i think it 's important . project manager: it i yeah , it seems feasible , and it would be something very great . marketing: i think one of our p priorities is tech technology . project manager: so we have the de design , the a good shape , new and so on , user interface: mm . marketing: and user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: and we have also the technology thing w will be . and even the easy to use thing , user interface: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so it will be perfect . user interface: mm . project manager: so we add also the speech recognition device . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . i agree . project manager: so , that great . we have decided everything . and think we are on a good way . so , um uh the next meeting will start in thirty minutes . um , so uh the the industrial manager uh will uh will work on the look and feel design . the user interface uh uh mana uh manager will work on the user interface device . and the the marketing expert will do the first project evaluation . marketing: okay . project manager: so , i hope you can do that in thirty minutes . marketing: user interface: project manager: and uh , yeah , i uh i think you should work together , s you uh hamed and peter , to work uh in a in a first prototype , and uh more about the shape and so on and how you can manage to put everything together . and um as usual you will receive some specific instructions on . so thank you all everybody , industrial designer: okay . project manager: and see you in thirty minutes . marketing: okay . industrial designer: okay . marketing: thank you .

from the marketing 's point of view , fancy was the highest priority , followed by technologically innovativeness and ease of use . the marketing expected the feel of the material to be spongy .

summarize the discussion about use convenience . </s> project manager: hello , uh this meeting we are it 's fo should be focused on the conceptual design of the remote control . marketing: hello . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: hello . project manager: um the goal of this meeting is to reach a decision at the end on the concept and i think the last time we talked about an a lot and we had a rough idea of what is going to be , but uh in th at the end of this meeting we have to to reach a decision . so , uh we will have again three presentation , from all of you , and uh i hope it will be fast because i would like to have time to for long discussion and and decisions . so , who wants to start ? okay . user interface: i s marketing: okay . user interface: no , no , you you can start . project manager: so start , uh marketing: okay , i 'll start . can you open my presentation , project manager: marketing: please . project manager: uh . marketing: i 'm number four . project manager: this one ? marketing: trend . yep . can you pass the mouse , please . oh okay , that 's fine . project manager: turn . marketing: okay . um so basically i just want to presented to you present to you some recent results we 've had from um looking at uh um some remote control market research and some fashion trends around the world . um the fashion trends we got from talking to our our contacts in the fashion industry based in paris and milan . um so f from our market research basically we 've come to the conclusion that a fancy look and feel , um as opposed to a functional look and feel , is our number one priority . um fancy is is is is the , you know , highest priority . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: secondly um that our remote control needs to be techn technologically innovative . um so this is t number two priority but it 's two times less important as the fancy criteria . um and third thirdly the easiness of use is is the um is is important as well , but again two times less important as the technologically innovativeness of the remote control . from our f fashion people in paris and milan , um we 've discovered that this year um fruit the fruit and vegetable motif will be the most important thing in in clothes , shoes and furniture . so , i 'm pretty confident that our remote control fits into the furniture category . and also um the feel of material this year um is expected to be spongy . project manager: okay . marketing: um so hopefully our remote control reflects that s in some way . industrial designer: what does it mean , spongy ? marketing: uh sort of um squishy . industrial designer: like soft , or something ? marketing: um . yeah soft , project manager: marketing: like a uh like a sponge . project manager: like a sponge . yeah . marketing: i do n't know . yeah . industrial designer: okay . i will see . marketing: um so in conclusion , we need a our remote control needs to be something that 's really fancy , um has lots of technolog tech technology in it . um somehow would be good to have it related to fruit and vegetables with a spongy feel . project manager: industrial designer: okay . user interface: marketing: and that it 's easy to use and from our last meeting our you know fabian told us that w you know one of the requirements is that we have to reflect the look and feel of our of th the real reaction company . um . industrial designer: project manager: yeah , uh yeah . marketing: that 's it . project manager: easy to use , is it uh a as much as important than technology or fancy thing . it 's less important , right ? marketing: less important . project manager: yeah yeah . marketing: so um fanciness first and then two ti you know , half as important as that is technology technology , project manager: okay . marketing: and half important as technology is easy to use . so . project manager: so , hamed , can you . user interface: yeah . the second one . could you please show the presentation number three . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i think the biggest struggle will be the easy to use feature . project manager: um . number ? industrial designer: we 'll see . user interface: yeah . project manager: three . user interface: three . project manager: this one ? user interface: yes . just could you please check if it is the first one or the second . uh , n n no , it 's the first one . the second one . project manager: so it 's not this one . user interface: uh yeah . okay . okay . so i am going to talk about a little bit about how this remote control should be appear to be more easy to use . i think uh i think the feature easy to use is more important than being fancy , but okay , we can discuss about it uh later . um generally , generally uh this remote control uh uh should be should be something , in my opinion , uh the first feature is just to be easy to use . so , the more frequent buttons should be larger , they should be placed in a good position uh uh inside the remote control . and uh s uh i can conclude like this , that we should n't need to learn how to use it . it should be we should n't need to es open a a t book and uh start reading and uh learning how to use this uh this uh remote control . okay . so what i found out that uh as i said uh i think it 's better to put uh more frequent uh uh uh ke uh buttons which are used more in the middle of the remote control , and they should be bigger in size . uh the shape of remote control should be in a way which can which should be taken easily in hand . it should not be completely like uh a cube . it should be it should have round edge , so uh then it 's easier . industrial designer: exactly . user interface: and maybe uh just like some toys , some joystick which is easier to take inside the hand . and uh also f uh uh m because because customers does n't like to buy lots of battery , it should not uh consume lots of energy . okay . and my personal p uh preference is uh , as i said , uh just putting this buttons in a special places and covered some buttons which are not used uh that much like settings button , like mobile phone . usually some mobile phone cover the dialling number part , so we can cover these buttons which are not used or uh number buttons for the for the for the can channels , and just put uh volume change or s ch can uh channel change buttons uh uh in the remote control . and if the user needed to do some more complex task uh he he can open the cover and then change settings or something like this . uh . and also uh i think if we put some some some some some buttons inside of the remote control it can be used easier . not on remote control . i dunno if i can explain well . but uh just inside . for example , a sliding or rolling uh uh d uh stuff , if we put it inside then we can easily manipulate with uh thumb . so it can be another uh preference . and uh i dunno but uh i think usage of a speech recogn uh r recogniser can be good . i know that it consumes lots of energy , but if we do it in some way that it asleeps when there is no sound and when it detects some sound it may consume less energy . and i think it 's good because it 's something new and usually young people like something new . so it may not be very useful but because it 's new , people may buy it . uh i personally think there should be a big difference between uh between something . otherwise they prefer to buy something which is coming from a famous company , or . okay . that 's mine . project manager: okay . industrial designer: uh okay , so good news from me uh uh for me from hamed , but bad news from bob obviously , because spongy design , i do n't like it as marketing: project manager: industrial designer: okay , so could you please , fabien , open it . project manager: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: i 'm person two . and which one , uh probably the first one . i 'm not sure but check the first one . i most of the things i have to write myself on the board , but project manager: this one , yeah . industrial designer: yeah , that 's it . just it 's only this slide ? yeah . this this is just uh one thing i wanted to mention and show you that i just uh i just found this , that our company uh developed a s a seven f seven fingers or i 'll just marketing: inch . industrial designer: yeah , seven seven inch t_ t_f_t_ screen , which is good news for us , since we wanted to include a display there . uh so i i probably draw it down raw scheme . project manager: oh , . industrial designer: this is this is the stuff that i can use to project manager: oops . industrial designer: okay , so the this will be like the overall scheme or overall requirements from the engineering point of view . uh first thing is uh this will be the overall shape , no uh i 'm not speaking about the real shape of the device , but the shape of the inside of the device . so there will be some circuit uh for the power . so , say power circuit here . uh the main energy will be taken from batteries that we can uh uh and if we decide to use the speech recognition stuff there , we must use additional source of energy , which i found the best is to use the solar cells which can which can uh supply everything . i was computing all the all the things related to the speech recognition , and it 's okay to use just uh two batteries and solar cells , so . so no problem . there can be also solar cell . uh the main board with all the circuits will take at least seven to seven centimetres , so this is my like hard requirement for the guys from the design . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so at least seven to seven . it depends where you put your screen , because the screen is uh seven inch , so it depends on you where where you put it . marketing: industrial designer: it does n't matter . um it 's just one cord from from the main board to the screen which can be elsewhere . so this will be t_f_t_ . and on the main board we have the um interface to the microphone , which is somewhere , say here . interface to the microphone . then the graphical card uh for the t_f_t_ and the third unit is the i_r_ . the good news is that we can uh we decided to use the infra-red unit because our company has also developed the chip for communication by the infra-red , including all the stuff inside , so it will be very cheap for us . so infra-red here . so the once again the overall requirements , seven to seven centimetres for the board , which has to be which can be spongy but has to be this size , and the t_f_t_ which is seven inches . um i have to check what i wanted to uh from my point of view i do n't care about the about the material used for the overall des uh ov all the device . project manager: can you fit any uh for example a t_f_t_ or any electronic device in a spongy thing , or is there any problem for that ? for example , put electronic card on a spongy thing , i can i can imagine it could be a problem . industrial designer: a all these things in in uh in this box are okay to put in in any shape , basically . project manager: yep . industrial designer: but we have to take care of the t_f_t_ . well , sponginess . maybe it a good feature , since it takes if it 's around the t_f_t_ then it 's good , because it 's just keeps it safe , project manager: okay . so industrial designer: i dunno . user interface: well maybe it can have two shells , a hard shell inside and a spongy shell outside . marketing: so project manager: okay . maybe put electronic in a box and a spongy thing around . maybe after . industrial designer: well , it 's maybe related to the u_i_ . marketing: so project manager: yeah . marketing: ca can i ask a question . industrial designer: a yeah , that 's all from me . marketing: this seven inch t_f_t_ screen , industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: how big is it in reality ? industrial designer: well , seven to seven inches . marketing: so like that . industrial designer: yes . project manager: user interface: marketing: that 's quite big . industrial designer: marketing: uh uh have we decided that we 're gon na use this t_f_t_ screen ? project manager: no , i do n't think it 's seven by seven , industrial designer: yeah but project manager: i think it 's seven the diagonal is seven . industrial designer: to be honest , i was project manager: usually when they say seven inch i think it 's the diagonal . user interface: yeah yes . marketing: but i mean even even that is like this big . project manager: yeah . i dunno i dun i dun one each user interface: marketing: project manager: . but , yeah , . industrial designer: yeah , honestly speaking i was thinking that it was seven centimetres initially , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but it 's seven inches . but i i think we can we can cut it . marketing: you can cut the t_f_t_ screen . project manager: let 's go . industrial designer: yeah , no no problem , user interface: industrial designer: because because because then the size of the graphic card will be one fourth . project manager: so let 's cut the t_f_t_ . industrial designer: so marketing: industrial designer: yeah , but no problem to to me to cut the screen . user interface: mm . marketing: okay , so industrial designer: so so for the same price we have four screens now . project manager: mm . marketing: okay . project manager: these technical engineers , huh . marketing: so , what 's the size of the device ? industrial designer: ah well this is like this is almost nothing . seven to seven to at least well some three millimetres or something . marketing: even from my perspective seven t seven centimetres by seven centimetres is still industrial designer: yeah , but we wanted the big buttons and stuff like that , you know . marketing: is it can you hold that , or ? industrial designer: because if it 's t too small we can we can lose it , at home , you know . project manager: what user wants . he wants a small remote control , or ? uh uh with big buttons . user interface: uh . industrial designer: i thought that it it should fit in the hand or something . marketing: yeah , a small c control that they can hold in hand . project manager: it 's difficult . user interface: yes . project manager: a sm industrial designer: marketing: but is something that 's seven centimetres square e easy to hold ? user interface: industrial designer: w i i think so . i if the roller buttons are on the side you do n't have to catch it like that , but just like this , and you know follow follow well , that 's that 's no task for me , but well seven to seven at least yeah , project manager: so maybe you can finish your presentation , user interface: project manager: and afterwards we will discuss about all this . industrial designer: but oh , okay . user interface: maybe this . marketing: okay . industrial designer: okay thanks . project manager: that 's it . okay . so . no . uh , so i think we have a lot we have to take decision today , so i think we have to do some work to finalise our idea and take decisions . uh first i think energy it 's a key problem because uh it depend what can we have as feature if we use only batteries , for example , or something like that . because can we have lcd and speech recognition with battery , and it 's also r related to the size of the of the devi of the device ? industrial designer: not j uh just a point to the energy th things . if we use the batteries , and the additional so solar cell , then it 's okay for l_ uh speech recognition and lcd , project manager: okay . industrial designer: so no problem in energy , i think . project manager: so okay . industrial designer: but we have to use the solar cell . user interface: so but project manager: uh like industrial designer: otherwise not . project manager: but using how many batteries , for example ? are are what maybe what is the size of the battery industrial designer: yeah i was thinking just common a_a_ cells . project manager: okay . uh one two industrial designer: so like three to five centimetres , project manager: okay . industrial designer: i dunno exactly , but . marketing: so if we use s solar cells , um where is the sun if someone 's watching tv inside ? industrial designer: s uh d does n't need to be sun . it it 's just the daylight , you know . marketing: okay . project manager: the television lights . industrial designer: yeah well i i suppose that i suppose that uh that this remote control wo n't be in the in the room like this , where there is light only when when there are people , but . user interface: marketing: project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: at least when there is tv you can get light from the tv . industrial designer: yeah from the t_ user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i do n't think it 's enough , uh . project manager: i dunno . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . mm . industrial designer: ah it 's a it 's a compromise , no ? marketing: project manager: at least it 's new and maybe technology new technology . industrial designer: yeah , that 's why i wanted to to include the speech recognition , because you wanted all the new things . marketing: it 's it 's quite innovative , yes . project manager: yeah . user interface: hmm . project manager: um . marketing: and if you watch tv outside it 's very useful . user interface: project manager: so i think before talking about the other thing , it 's important thing it 's the case . industrial designer: project manager: uh what what are gon na be the size , because its weight drives the other what we are going to use as features and so on . for example for the for the lcd , if we choose to have a small device , we can not use this um a such a a a screen . industrial designer: uh the s the screen is okay , but the board , uh that 's the problem . well what what would you guess as a shape ? or what what would be the shape ? user interface: mm . i think i think their being uh large or small is not important . the only important thing is to be able to take it in uh inside hand easily . so let 's say an average size , okay , industrial designer: mm . user interface: and it should not be very heavy also . and i prefer to is it should n't have a uniform shape , so in the middle it should be a little bit thinner , maybe maybe . so we c it 's like like some joysticks . you can take uh some some joystick you can take inside hand easier because it 's it 's designed for your f uh taking into account your finger shape and your palm shape . so the general shape should be like this . i think uh seven centimetre by seven centimetre is a little bit large . so uh seven not seven but let 's say five by ten it 's i think it 's that 's my opinion . it 's easier . industrial designer: okay . marketing: which is the same area . industrial designer: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: could you re could you redesign your board ? industrial designer: five to ten . well that marketing: oh , five five centimetres by ten centimetres . industrial designer: yeah , right . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , i think it 's feasib well one um um how could we do it ? we could put the board next to , well , under the lcd and for example make the lcd be totally unrelated to the thing that you hold in your hand . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like holding something , and the lcd to be just on top of it , you know somehow . well but maybe let 's stick to the s spongy thing , like one unit . project manager: oh . i 've i s i think the easiest thing would be to to have a smaller lcd , if it 's possible . industrial designer: well fi five to ten it would be feasible . user interface: mm . industrial designer: okay , so five to ten , i i think it 's it 's feasible . project manager: okay . so we are agree with a small industrial designer: i 'll make it . user interface: or uh or i do n't know project manager: lcd . industrial designer: fo five by ten . user interface: but i do n't want to now invent something new , because we did n't discuss about it . so using some lcds we can touch , so we can remove uh keys and just uh having uh , i dunno the name , lcd responding to fingers . project manager: yeah . user interface: touching the screen . something like project manager: tactile or something , yeah . user interface: mm like tactile . marketing: mm , touch screen . project manager: touch screen , yeah . user interface: so but for now if we do n't want to use such kind of screens i i think we using a a smaller screen is better , project manager: yeah . user interface: because project manager: the problem is we have a limit in a month of time , so we can not do something very new . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: project manager: so let 's go for a small lcd . marketing: so industrial designer: okay , so yeah , so so just just give me the the the five by ten numbers that you find the best and send it me user interface: a smaller s project manager: yeah okay . user interface: okay . project manager: so , five by s ten . industrial designer: and i will work it out . marketing: industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um so what about , so the case we talked about . um something easy to use , you said something easy to use but how does that fit in a fashion way , like with fruit and vegetable , and about the colour and logo of the of the company and so on , now , can we do that ? my first idea is because our colour is more yellow , and the it should be easy to take in a hand , i thought about banana , or something like that , which is fruits , and industrial designer: seven to ten banana . project manager: a big banana . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: okay . rather mango or something or . project manager: um . marketing: well it 's it 's definitely the obvious choice , with the colour of our company . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: marketing: i mean what other what other fruit and vegetables project manager: but it 's just an idea . i dunno what you think about , but marketing: do you know of any any other fruit and vegetables that are yellow ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: i dunno if it can fit with the technology . you are the specialists of that . industrial designer: you mean banana . project manager: industrial designer: well , but if it 's if it if the banana is big enough . project manager: so marketing: user interface: industrial designer: then , yes . but if you want to look at the screen , no . well user interface: project manager: yeah , and industrial designer: user interface: i think this is not good . project manager: the screen has to be square ? or it can be like a a shape , quite , uh with curves . industrial designer: well , it can be whatever you want . project manager: it could . industrial designer: but if it 's square then we get four screens out of one by cutting just . but if you want some shape then we can only get like two screens out of seven to seven inches , so . marketing: project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: it 's like more more expensive to have shape like that . but i do n't care . you know , if we fit this requirement . marketing: well i 'd like a shaped screen . i think that 's more important than saving a bit of money on on the t_f_t_ screen . project manager: okay industrial designer: okay project manager: okay . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah , m maybe the banana could be like a bit uh fatter than than the c c common one . project manager: yeah . yeah , it should remember banana , but it 's not does n't have to b to be uh uh really the size and exactly the shape of a banana . user interface: industrial designer: but user interface: industrial designer: like modified banana , okay . project manager: so we are agree with the banana thing ? industrial designer: well it we 'll stick to banana , or ? user interface: okay . marketing: yeah , banana 's good . project manager: okay . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . industrial designer: mm-mm . project manager: so , the last point we decided it 's infra-red , i guess . user interface: yeah , i think infra-red . project manager: everybody 's agreed . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . sure . project manager: uh , so that 's it i think about the concepts . you have other thing to add to this point , or uh no ? so , uh about the user interface , so we are going to use lcd . in the last meeting we talked about uh hidden buttons . i do n't know what we are going to do with that . you talked about the buttons on the side industrial designer: like like peeling of the banana you s user interface: yeah , peeling of the banana . project manager: mm what ? industrial designer: it would be cool , yeah . user interface: industrial designer: peeling of the banana , you know , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: should should discover the other buttons , which are hidden . user interface: yeah . marketing: user interface: mm . marketing: project manager: okay . and you mean the first layer would be spongy . user interface: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: first layer obviously spo yeah , project manager: so industrial designer: w it 's it 's like silly , but the people will really appreciate it , yeah i think . project manager: is it is it possible to do that ? it would be a great idea , but is it possible technically ? user interface: uh project manager: like doing a spongy layer of the banana , and you open it . marketing: i think if we if we have a spongy layer on the outside of the banana then it 's easy to make that , project manager: yeah . marketing: you know , to manipulate that to hav be a cover that you can pull off and user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah , some something like a plastic cover covering uh some interface , u_s_b_ interface as in the in uh digital camera . if you see it 's like peeling . you open a plastic cover and you see some u_s_b_ interfaces , some some interfaces for adaptor . so keys can be uh buttons can be covered like this , with a plastic cover and uh when uh and when you open this cover it 's like peeling a banana . so , something like this . project manager: yeah , but do you see that as a rigid thing , or like like a banana , something very soft , you can open like banana , or . industrial designer: well is it possible to make it soft ? user interface: yeah , yeah , yeah it 's a lic like a plastic cover , so . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so i think if it 's so then it 's cool ? project manager: so , i dunno what you think , bob , but it would be great for users i think , and very good for marketing . marketing: i think for sure . definitely . the softer the better . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: cool . user interface: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: honestly speaking , i can not imagine it , so far , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but it will be terrible . user interface: project manager: um . and setting buttons hidden in . industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm , other remarks , or something , or . something we did n't talk about yes yet , or . i think we are almost there . uh maybe , how can we , if we have a soft thing , like this , and to open it we have to attach it somewhere , i dunno how to do that technically , or . industrial designer: project manager: and how user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: pof . marketing: we could use velcro . project manager: yeah , maybe . marketing: or uh ma maybe a magnetic user interface: yes , yeah it 's a good idea . marketing: thing . project manager: ma magnetic oh . user interface: magnetic . mm . yeah or a yeah it can is it can be a plastic cover uh sticking to the to the all the stuff like uh with magnetic p uh magnetic uh magnetic uh materials in the border , so it 's it sticks like refrigerator door , completely . project manager: okay . user interface: and when you try to open it , it will be opened easily . so you you can be sure that it will not be open while you 're uh while while uh you are commonly using uh buttons on the banana . project manager: okay . and what would be the matter here of the first layer i mean ? mm . likes . soft plastic , or marketing: yeah , i imagine some sort of vinyl thing . project manager: yeah , yeah , yeah . marketing: in a in a sort of a with a suede sort of feel . maybe . industrial designer: well since since the since the things like the like the screen and um how to say that , solar cell has to be has to be like kept kept in the shape , we can not b uh so we need that the that the peeling uh i dunno but we should we should take care of these two two things . so , if if uh the solar cell wo n't be visible while the banana is closed , then the material must be able to put the light inside , you know . so that we can reach the energy out of it out of that . user interface: mm . marketing: mm . so you 're saying is it possible to have a solar cell and this removable cover and industrial designer: it is possible , but , well if it marketing: and a and a banana . industrial designer: i dunno . user interface: mm . industrial designer: i dunno how to how to do it if if t if to if it 's better to put the solar cell to the t to the peeling or outside it , or or inside . project manager: hmm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but then it must be some window there , you know . marketing: okay . user interface: mm . project manager: and something we forgot , maybe , uh about the speech recognition system , are we going to use it , or not ? marketing: user interface: yes , i think . i think so . marketing: i think it 's important . project manager: it i yeah , it seems feasible , and it would be something very great . marketing: i think one of our p priorities is tech technology . project manager: so we have the de design , the a good shape , new and so on , user interface: mm . marketing: and user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: and we have also the technology thing w will be . and even the easy to use thing , user interface: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so it will be perfect . user interface: mm . project manager: so we add also the speech recognition device . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . i agree . project manager: so , that great . we have decided everything . and think we are on a good way . so , um uh the next meeting will start in thirty minutes . um , so uh the the industrial manager uh will uh will work on the look and feel design . the user interface uh uh mana uh manager will work on the user interface device . and the the marketing expert will do the first project evaluation . marketing: okay . project manager: so , i hope you can do that in thirty minutes . marketing: user interface: project manager: and uh , yeah , i uh i think you should work together , s you uh hamed and peter , to work uh in a in a first prototype , and uh more about the shape and so on and how you can manage to put everything together . and um as usual you will receive some specific instructions on . so thank you all everybody , industrial designer: okay . project manager: and see you in thirty minutes . marketing: okay . industrial designer: okay . marketing: thank you .

user interface thought that the feature easy to use was more important than being fancy . he mentioned that the more frequent buttons should be larger and be placed in good positions . he preferred to put some buttons in special places and cover these buttons , or put some buttons inside the remote control . and the remote control also had to be easily taken in hands and energy-saving .

summarize the discussion about the size of the device when discussing the overall requirements . </s> project manager: hello , uh this meeting we are it 's fo should be focused on the conceptual design of the remote control . marketing: hello . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: hello . project manager: um the goal of this meeting is to reach a decision at the end on the concept and i think the last time we talked about an a lot and we had a rough idea of what is going to be , but uh in th at the end of this meeting we have to to reach a decision . so , uh we will have again three presentation , from all of you , and uh i hope it will be fast because i would like to have time to for long discussion and and decisions . so , who wants to start ? okay . user interface: i s marketing: okay . user interface: no , no , you you can start . project manager: so start , uh marketing: okay , i 'll start . can you open my presentation , project manager: marketing: please . project manager: uh . marketing: i 'm number four . project manager: this one ? marketing: trend . yep . can you pass the mouse , please . oh okay , that 's fine . project manager: turn . marketing: okay . um so basically i just want to presented to you present to you some recent results we 've had from um looking at uh um some remote control market research and some fashion trends around the world . um the fashion trends we got from talking to our our contacts in the fashion industry based in paris and milan . um so f from our market research basically we 've come to the conclusion that a fancy look and feel , um as opposed to a functional look and feel , is our number one priority . um fancy is is is is the , you know , highest priority . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: secondly um that our remote control needs to be techn technologically innovative . um so this is t number two priority but it 's two times less important as the fancy criteria . um and third thirdly the easiness of use is is the um is is important as well , but again two times less important as the technologically innovativeness of the remote control . from our f fashion people in paris and milan , um we 've discovered that this year um fruit the fruit and vegetable motif will be the most important thing in in clothes , shoes and furniture . so , i 'm pretty confident that our remote control fits into the furniture category . and also um the feel of material this year um is expected to be spongy . project manager: okay . marketing: um so hopefully our remote control reflects that s in some way . industrial designer: what does it mean , spongy ? marketing: uh sort of um squishy . industrial designer: like soft , or something ? marketing: um . yeah soft , project manager: marketing: like a uh like a sponge . project manager: like a sponge . yeah . marketing: i do n't know . yeah . industrial designer: okay . i will see . marketing: um so in conclusion , we need a our remote control needs to be something that 's really fancy , um has lots of technolog tech technology in it . um somehow would be good to have it related to fruit and vegetables with a spongy feel . project manager: industrial designer: okay . user interface: marketing: and that it 's easy to use and from our last meeting our you know fabian told us that w you know one of the requirements is that we have to reflect the look and feel of our of th the real reaction company . um . industrial designer: project manager: yeah , uh yeah . marketing: that 's it . project manager: easy to use , is it uh a as much as important than technology or fancy thing . it 's less important , right ? marketing: less important . project manager: yeah yeah . marketing: so um fanciness first and then two ti you know , half as important as that is technology technology , project manager: okay . marketing: and half important as technology is easy to use . so . project manager: so , hamed , can you . user interface: yeah . the second one . could you please show the presentation number three . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i think the biggest struggle will be the easy to use feature . project manager: um . number ? industrial designer: we 'll see . user interface: yeah . project manager: three . user interface: three . project manager: this one ? user interface: yes . just could you please check if it is the first one or the second . uh , n n no , it 's the first one . the second one . project manager: so it 's not this one . user interface: uh yeah . okay . okay . so i am going to talk about a little bit about how this remote control should be appear to be more easy to use . i think uh i think the feature easy to use is more important than being fancy , but okay , we can discuss about it uh later . um generally , generally uh this remote control uh uh should be should be something , in my opinion , uh the first feature is just to be easy to use . so , the more frequent buttons should be larger , they should be placed in a good position uh uh inside the remote control . and uh s uh i can conclude like this , that we should n't need to learn how to use it . it should be we should n't need to es open a a t book and uh start reading and uh learning how to use this uh this uh remote control . okay . so what i found out that uh as i said uh i think it 's better to put uh more frequent uh uh uh ke uh buttons which are used more in the middle of the remote control , and they should be bigger in size . uh the shape of remote control should be in a way which can which should be taken easily in hand . it should not be completely like uh a cube . it should be it should have round edge , so uh then it 's easier . industrial designer: exactly . user interface: and maybe uh just like some toys , some joystick which is easier to take inside the hand . and uh also f uh uh m because because customers does n't like to buy lots of battery , it should not uh consume lots of energy . okay . and my personal p uh preference is uh , as i said , uh just putting this buttons in a special places and covered some buttons which are not used uh that much like settings button , like mobile phone . usually some mobile phone cover the dialling number part , so we can cover these buttons which are not used or uh number buttons for the for the for the can channels , and just put uh volume change or s ch can uh channel change buttons uh uh in the remote control . and if the user needed to do some more complex task uh he he can open the cover and then change settings or something like this . uh . and also uh i think if we put some some some some some buttons inside of the remote control it can be used easier . not on remote control . i dunno if i can explain well . but uh just inside . for example , a sliding or rolling uh uh d uh stuff , if we put it inside then we can easily manipulate with uh thumb . so it can be another uh preference . and uh i dunno but uh i think usage of a speech recogn uh r recogniser can be good . i know that it consumes lots of energy , but if we do it in some way that it asleeps when there is no sound and when it detects some sound it may consume less energy . and i think it 's good because it 's something new and usually young people like something new . so it may not be very useful but because it 's new , people may buy it . uh i personally think there should be a big difference between uh between something . otherwise they prefer to buy something which is coming from a famous company , or . okay . that 's mine . project manager: okay . industrial designer: uh okay , so good news from me uh uh for me from hamed , but bad news from bob obviously , because spongy design , i do n't like it as marketing: project manager: industrial designer: okay , so could you please , fabien , open it . project manager: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: i 'm person two . and which one , uh probably the first one . i 'm not sure but check the first one . i most of the things i have to write myself on the board , but project manager: this one , yeah . industrial designer: yeah , that 's it . just it 's only this slide ? yeah . this this is just uh one thing i wanted to mention and show you that i just uh i just found this , that our company uh developed a s a seven f seven fingers or i 'll just marketing: inch . industrial designer: yeah , seven seven inch t_ t_f_t_ screen , which is good news for us , since we wanted to include a display there . uh so i i probably draw it down raw scheme . project manager: oh , . industrial designer: this is this is the stuff that i can use to project manager: oops . industrial designer: okay , so the this will be like the overall scheme or overall requirements from the engineering point of view . uh first thing is uh this will be the overall shape , no uh i 'm not speaking about the real shape of the device , but the shape of the inside of the device . so there will be some circuit uh for the power . so , say power circuit here . uh the main energy will be taken from batteries that we can uh uh and if we decide to use the speech recognition stuff there , we must use additional source of energy , which i found the best is to use the solar cells which can which can uh supply everything . i was computing all the all the things related to the speech recognition , and it 's okay to use just uh two batteries and solar cells , so . so no problem . there can be also solar cell . uh the main board with all the circuits will take at least seven to seven centimetres , so this is my like hard requirement for the guys from the design . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so at least seven to seven . it depends where you put your screen , because the screen is uh seven inch , so it depends on you where where you put it . marketing: industrial designer: it does n't matter . um it 's just one cord from from the main board to the screen which can be elsewhere . so this will be t_f_t_ . and on the main board we have the um interface to the microphone , which is somewhere , say here . interface to the microphone . then the graphical card uh for the t_f_t_ and the third unit is the i_r_ . the good news is that we can uh we decided to use the infra-red unit because our company has also developed the chip for communication by the infra-red , including all the stuff inside , so it will be very cheap for us . so infra-red here . so the once again the overall requirements , seven to seven centimetres for the board , which has to be which can be spongy but has to be this size , and the t_f_t_ which is seven inches . um i have to check what i wanted to uh from my point of view i do n't care about the about the material used for the overall des uh ov all the device . project manager: can you fit any uh for example a t_f_t_ or any electronic device in a spongy thing , or is there any problem for that ? for example , put electronic card on a spongy thing , i can i can imagine it could be a problem . industrial designer: a all these things in in uh in this box are okay to put in in any shape , basically . project manager: yep . industrial designer: but we have to take care of the t_f_t_ . well , sponginess . maybe it a good feature , since it takes if it 's around the t_f_t_ then it 's good , because it 's just keeps it safe , project manager: okay . so industrial designer: i dunno . user interface: well maybe it can have two shells , a hard shell inside and a spongy shell outside . marketing: so project manager: okay . maybe put electronic in a box and a spongy thing around . maybe after . industrial designer: well , it 's maybe related to the u_i_ . marketing: so project manager: yeah . marketing: ca can i ask a question . industrial designer: a yeah , that 's all from me . marketing: this seven inch t_f_t_ screen , industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: how big is it in reality ? industrial designer: well , seven to seven inches . marketing: so like that . industrial designer: yes . project manager: user interface: marketing: that 's quite big . industrial designer: marketing: uh uh have we decided that we 're gon na use this t_f_t_ screen ? project manager: no , i do n't think it 's seven by seven , industrial designer: yeah but project manager: i think it 's seven the diagonal is seven . industrial designer: to be honest , i was project manager: usually when they say seven inch i think it 's the diagonal . user interface: yeah yes . marketing: but i mean even even that is like this big . project manager: yeah . i dunno i dun i dun one each user interface: marketing: project manager: . but , yeah , . industrial designer: yeah , honestly speaking i was thinking that it was seven centimetres initially , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but it 's seven inches . but i i think we can we can cut it . marketing: you can cut the t_f_t_ screen . project manager: let 's go . industrial designer: yeah , no no problem , user interface: industrial designer: because because because then the size of the graphic card will be one fourth . project manager: so let 's cut the t_f_t_ . industrial designer: so marketing: industrial designer: yeah , but no problem to to me to cut the screen . user interface: mm . marketing: okay , so industrial designer: so so for the same price we have four screens now . project manager: mm . marketing: okay . project manager: these technical engineers , huh . marketing: so , what 's the size of the device ? industrial designer: ah well this is like this is almost nothing . seven to seven to at least well some three millimetres or something . marketing: even from my perspective seven t seven centimetres by seven centimetres is still industrial designer: yeah , but we wanted the big buttons and stuff like that , you know . marketing: is it can you hold that , or ? industrial designer: because if it 's t too small we can we can lose it , at home , you know . project manager: what user wants . he wants a small remote control , or ? uh uh with big buttons . user interface: uh . industrial designer: i thought that it it should fit in the hand or something . marketing: yeah , a small c control that they can hold in hand . project manager: it 's difficult . user interface: yes . project manager: a sm industrial designer: marketing: but is something that 's seven centimetres square e easy to hold ? user interface: industrial designer: w i i think so . i if the roller buttons are on the side you do n't have to catch it like that , but just like this , and you know follow follow well , that 's that 's no task for me , but well seven to seven at least yeah , project manager: so maybe you can finish your presentation , user interface: project manager: and afterwards we will discuss about all this . industrial designer: but oh , okay . user interface: maybe this . marketing: okay . industrial designer: okay thanks . project manager: that 's it . okay . so . no . uh , so i think we have a lot we have to take decision today , so i think we have to do some work to finalise our idea and take decisions . uh first i think energy it 's a key problem because uh it depend what can we have as feature if we use only batteries , for example , or something like that . because can we have lcd and speech recognition with battery , and it 's also r related to the size of the of the devi of the device ? industrial designer: not j uh just a point to the energy th things . if we use the batteries , and the additional so solar cell , then it 's okay for l_ uh speech recognition and lcd , project manager: okay . industrial designer: so no problem in energy , i think . project manager: so okay . industrial designer: but we have to use the solar cell . user interface: so but project manager: uh like industrial designer: otherwise not . project manager: but using how many batteries , for example ? are are what maybe what is the size of the battery industrial designer: yeah i was thinking just common a_a_ cells . project manager: okay . uh one two industrial designer: so like three to five centimetres , project manager: okay . industrial designer: i dunno exactly , but . marketing: so if we use s solar cells , um where is the sun if someone 's watching tv inside ? industrial designer: s uh d does n't need to be sun . it it 's just the daylight , you know . marketing: okay . project manager: the television lights . industrial designer: yeah well i i suppose that i suppose that uh that this remote control wo n't be in the in the room like this , where there is light only when when there are people , but . user interface: marketing: project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: at least when there is tv you can get light from the tv . industrial designer: yeah from the t_ user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i do n't think it 's enough , uh . project manager: i dunno . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . mm . industrial designer: ah it 's a it 's a compromise , no ? marketing: project manager: at least it 's new and maybe technology new technology . industrial designer: yeah , that 's why i wanted to to include the speech recognition , because you wanted all the new things . marketing: it 's it 's quite innovative , yes . project manager: yeah . user interface: hmm . project manager: um . marketing: and if you watch tv outside it 's very useful . user interface: project manager: so i think before talking about the other thing , it 's important thing it 's the case . industrial designer: project manager: uh what what are gon na be the size , because its weight drives the other what we are going to use as features and so on . for example for the for the lcd , if we choose to have a small device , we can not use this um a such a a a screen . industrial designer: uh the s the screen is okay , but the board , uh that 's the problem . well what what would you guess as a shape ? or what what would be the shape ? user interface: mm . i think i think their being uh large or small is not important . the only important thing is to be able to take it in uh inside hand easily . so let 's say an average size , okay , industrial designer: mm . user interface: and it should not be very heavy also . and i prefer to is it should n't have a uniform shape , so in the middle it should be a little bit thinner , maybe maybe . so we c it 's like like some joysticks . you can take uh some some joystick you can take inside hand easier because it 's it 's designed for your f uh taking into account your finger shape and your palm shape . so the general shape should be like this . i think uh seven centimetre by seven centimetre is a little bit large . so uh seven not seven but let 's say five by ten it 's i think it 's that 's my opinion . it 's easier . industrial designer: okay . marketing: which is the same area . industrial designer: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: could you re could you redesign your board ? industrial designer: five to ten . well that marketing: oh , five five centimetres by ten centimetres . industrial designer: yeah , right . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , i think it 's feasib well one um um how could we do it ? we could put the board next to , well , under the lcd and for example make the lcd be totally unrelated to the thing that you hold in your hand . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like holding something , and the lcd to be just on top of it , you know somehow . well but maybe let 's stick to the s spongy thing , like one unit . project manager: oh . i 've i s i think the easiest thing would be to to have a smaller lcd , if it 's possible . industrial designer: well fi five to ten it would be feasible . user interface: mm . industrial designer: okay , so five to ten , i i think it 's it 's feasible . project manager: okay . so we are agree with a small industrial designer: i 'll make it . user interface: or uh or i do n't know project manager: lcd . industrial designer: fo five by ten . user interface: but i do n't want to now invent something new , because we did n't discuss about it . so using some lcds we can touch , so we can remove uh keys and just uh having uh , i dunno the name , lcd responding to fingers . project manager: yeah . user interface: touching the screen . something like project manager: tactile or something , yeah . user interface: mm like tactile . marketing: mm , touch screen . project manager: touch screen , yeah . user interface: so but for now if we do n't want to use such kind of screens i i think we using a a smaller screen is better , project manager: yeah . user interface: because project manager: the problem is we have a limit in a month of time , so we can not do something very new . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: project manager: so let 's go for a small lcd . marketing: so industrial designer: okay , so yeah , so so just just give me the the the five by ten numbers that you find the best and send it me user interface: a smaller s project manager: yeah okay . user interface: okay . project manager: so , five by s ten . industrial designer: and i will work it out . marketing: industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um so what about , so the case we talked about . um something easy to use , you said something easy to use but how does that fit in a fashion way , like with fruit and vegetable , and about the colour and logo of the of the company and so on , now , can we do that ? my first idea is because our colour is more yellow , and the it should be easy to take in a hand , i thought about banana , or something like that , which is fruits , and industrial designer: seven to ten banana . project manager: a big banana . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: okay . rather mango or something or . project manager: um . marketing: well it 's it 's definitely the obvious choice , with the colour of our company . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: marketing: i mean what other what other fruit and vegetables project manager: but it 's just an idea . i dunno what you think about , but marketing: do you know of any any other fruit and vegetables that are yellow ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: i dunno if it can fit with the technology . you are the specialists of that . industrial designer: you mean banana . project manager: industrial designer: well , but if it 's if it if the banana is big enough . project manager: so marketing: user interface: industrial designer: then , yes . but if you want to look at the screen , no . well user interface: project manager: yeah , and industrial designer: user interface: i think this is not good . project manager: the screen has to be square ? or it can be like a a shape , quite , uh with curves . industrial designer: well , it can be whatever you want . project manager: it could . industrial designer: but if it 's square then we get four screens out of one by cutting just . but if you want some shape then we can only get like two screens out of seven to seven inches , so . marketing: project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: it 's like more more expensive to have shape like that . but i do n't care . you know , if we fit this requirement . marketing: well i 'd like a shaped screen . i think that 's more important than saving a bit of money on on the t_f_t_ screen . project manager: okay industrial designer: okay project manager: okay . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah , m maybe the banana could be like a bit uh fatter than than the c c common one . project manager: yeah . yeah , it should remember banana , but it 's not does n't have to b to be uh uh really the size and exactly the shape of a banana . user interface: industrial designer: but user interface: industrial designer: like modified banana , okay . project manager: so we are agree with the banana thing ? industrial designer: well it we 'll stick to banana , or ? user interface: okay . marketing: yeah , banana 's good . project manager: okay . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . industrial designer: mm-mm . project manager: so , the last point we decided it 's infra-red , i guess . user interface: yeah , i think infra-red . project manager: everybody 's agreed . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . sure . project manager: uh , so that 's it i think about the concepts . you have other thing to add to this point , or uh no ? so , uh about the user interface , so we are going to use lcd . in the last meeting we talked about uh hidden buttons . i do n't know what we are going to do with that . you talked about the buttons on the side industrial designer: like like peeling of the banana you s user interface: yeah , peeling of the banana . project manager: mm what ? industrial designer: it would be cool , yeah . user interface: industrial designer: peeling of the banana , you know , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: should should discover the other buttons , which are hidden . user interface: yeah . marketing: user interface: mm . marketing: project manager: okay . and you mean the first layer would be spongy . user interface: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: first layer obviously spo yeah , project manager: so industrial designer: w it 's it 's like silly , but the people will really appreciate it , yeah i think . project manager: is it is it possible to do that ? it would be a great idea , but is it possible technically ? user interface: uh project manager: like doing a spongy layer of the banana , and you open it . marketing: i think if we if we have a spongy layer on the outside of the banana then it 's easy to make that , project manager: yeah . marketing: you know , to manipulate that to hav be a cover that you can pull off and user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah , some something like a plastic cover covering uh some interface , u_s_b_ interface as in the in uh digital camera . if you see it 's like peeling . you open a plastic cover and you see some u_s_b_ interfaces , some some interfaces for adaptor . so keys can be uh buttons can be covered like this , with a plastic cover and uh when uh and when you open this cover it 's like peeling a banana . so , something like this . project manager: yeah , but do you see that as a rigid thing , or like like a banana , something very soft , you can open like banana , or . industrial designer: well is it possible to make it soft ? user interface: yeah , yeah , yeah it 's a lic like a plastic cover , so . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so i think if it 's so then it 's cool ? project manager: so , i dunno what you think , bob , but it would be great for users i think , and very good for marketing . marketing: i think for sure . definitely . the softer the better . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: cool . user interface: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: honestly speaking , i can not imagine it , so far , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but it will be terrible . user interface: project manager: um . and setting buttons hidden in . industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm , other remarks , or something , or . something we did n't talk about yes yet , or . i think we are almost there . uh maybe , how can we , if we have a soft thing , like this , and to open it we have to attach it somewhere , i dunno how to do that technically , or . industrial designer: project manager: and how user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: pof . marketing: we could use velcro . project manager: yeah , maybe . marketing: or uh ma maybe a magnetic user interface: yes , yeah it 's a good idea . marketing: thing . project manager: ma magnetic oh . user interface: magnetic . mm . yeah or a yeah it can is it can be a plastic cover uh sticking to the to the all the stuff like uh with magnetic p uh magnetic uh magnetic uh materials in the border , so it 's it sticks like refrigerator door , completely . project manager: okay . user interface: and when you try to open it , it will be opened easily . so you you can be sure that it will not be open while you 're uh while while uh you are commonly using uh buttons on the banana . project manager: okay . and what would be the matter here of the first layer i mean ? mm . likes . soft plastic , or marketing: yeah , i imagine some sort of vinyl thing . project manager: yeah , yeah , yeah . marketing: in a in a sort of a with a suede sort of feel . maybe . industrial designer: well since since the since the things like the like the screen and um how to say that , solar cell has to be has to be like kept kept in the shape , we can not b uh so we need that the that the peeling uh i dunno but we should we should take care of these two two things . so , if if uh the solar cell wo n't be visible while the banana is closed , then the material must be able to put the light inside , you know . so that we can reach the energy out of it out of that . user interface: mm . marketing: mm . so you 're saying is it possible to have a solar cell and this removable cover and industrial designer: it is possible , but , well if it marketing: and a and a banana . industrial designer: i dunno . user interface: mm . industrial designer: i dunno how to how to do it if if t if to if it 's better to put the solar cell to the t to the peeling or outside it , or or inside . project manager: hmm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but then it must be some window there , you know . marketing: okay . user interface: mm . project manager: and something we forgot , maybe , uh about the speech recognition system , are we going to use it , or not ? marketing: user interface: yes , i think . i think so . marketing: i think it 's important . project manager: it i yeah , it seems feasible , and it would be something very great . marketing: i think one of our p priorities is tech technology . project manager: so we have the de design , the a good shape , new and so on , user interface: mm . marketing: and user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: and we have also the technology thing w will be . and even the easy to use thing , user interface: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so it will be perfect . user interface: mm . project manager: so we add also the speech recognition device . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . i agree . project manager: so , that great . we have decided everything . and think we are on a good way . so , um uh the next meeting will start in thirty minutes . um , so uh the the industrial manager uh will uh will work on the look and feel design . the user interface uh uh mana uh manager will work on the user interface device . and the the marketing expert will do the first project evaluation . marketing: okay . project manager: so , i hope you can do that in thirty minutes . marketing: user interface: project manager: and uh , yeah , i uh i think you should work together , s you uh hamed and peter , to work uh in a in a first prototype , and uh more about the shape and so on and how you can manage to put everything together . and um as usual you will receive some specific instructions on . so thank you all everybody , industrial designer: okay . project manager: and see you in thirty minutes . marketing: okay . industrial designer: okay . marketing: thank you .

the group members firstly made sure how big the seven-inch tft screen was in reality . and they thought that the remote control should not be too big or too small , it should be fit in hands . then they discussed how the screen and buttons could be reasonably put on the remote control .

what did the industrial designer think of solar cell when discussing energy problems ? </s> project manager: hello , uh this meeting we are it 's fo should be focused on the conceptual design of the remote control . marketing: hello . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: hello . project manager: um the goal of this meeting is to reach a decision at the end on the concept and i think the last time we talked about an a lot and we had a rough idea of what is going to be , but uh in th at the end of this meeting we have to to reach a decision . so , uh we will have again three presentation , from all of you , and uh i hope it will be fast because i would like to have time to for long discussion and and decisions . so , who wants to start ? okay . user interface: i s marketing: okay . user interface: no , no , you you can start . project manager: so start , uh marketing: okay , i 'll start . can you open my presentation , project manager: marketing: please . project manager: uh . marketing: i 'm number four . project manager: this one ? marketing: trend . yep . can you pass the mouse , please . oh okay , that 's fine . project manager: turn . marketing: okay . um so basically i just want to presented to you present to you some recent results we 've had from um looking at uh um some remote control market research and some fashion trends around the world . um the fashion trends we got from talking to our our contacts in the fashion industry based in paris and milan . um so f from our market research basically we 've come to the conclusion that a fancy look and feel , um as opposed to a functional look and feel , is our number one priority . um fancy is is is is the , you know , highest priority . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: secondly um that our remote control needs to be techn technologically innovative . um so this is t number two priority but it 's two times less important as the fancy criteria . um and third thirdly the easiness of use is is the um is is important as well , but again two times less important as the technologically innovativeness of the remote control . from our f fashion people in paris and milan , um we 've discovered that this year um fruit the fruit and vegetable motif will be the most important thing in in clothes , shoes and furniture . so , i 'm pretty confident that our remote control fits into the furniture category . and also um the feel of material this year um is expected to be spongy . project manager: okay . marketing: um so hopefully our remote control reflects that s in some way . industrial designer: what does it mean , spongy ? marketing: uh sort of um squishy . industrial designer: like soft , or something ? marketing: um . yeah soft , project manager: marketing: like a uh like a sponge . project manager: like a sponge . yeah . marketing: i do n't know . yeah . industrial designer: okay . i will see . marketing: um so in conclusion , we need a our remote control needs to be something that 's really fancy , um has lots of technolog tech technology in it . um somehow would be good to have it related to fruit and vegetables with a spongy feel . project manager: industrial designer: okay . user interface: marketing: and that it 's easy to use and from our last meeting our you know fabian told us that w you know one of the requirements is that we have to reflect the look and feel of our of th the real reaction company . um . industrial designer: project manager: yeah , uh yeah . marketing: that 's it . project manager: easy to use , is it uh a as much as important than technology or fancy thing . it 's less important , right ? marketing: less important . project manager: yeah yeah . marketing: so um fanciness first and then two ti you know , half as important as that is technology technology , project manager: okay . marketing: and half important as technology is easy to use . so . project manager: so , hamed , can you . user interface: yeah . the second one . could you please show the presentation number three . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i think the biggest struggle will be the easy to use feature . project manager: um . number ? industrial designer: we 'll see . user interface: yeah . project manager: three . user interface: three . project manager: this one ? user interface: yes . just could you please check if it is the first one or the second . uh , n n no , it 's the first one . the second one . project manager: so it 's not this one . user interface: uh yeah . okay . okay . so i am going to talk about a little bit about how this remote control should be appear to be more easy to use . i think uh i think the feature easy to use is more important than being fancy , but okay , we can discuss about it uh later . um generally , generally uh this remote control uh uh should be should be something , in my opinion , uh the first feature is just to be easy to use . so , the more frequent buttons should be larger , they should be placed in a good position uh uh inside the remote control . and uh s uh i can conclude like this , that we should n't need to learn how to use it . it should be we should n't need to es open a a t book and uh start reading and uh learning how to use this uh this uh remote control . okay . so what i found out that uh as i said uh i think it 's better to put uh more frequent uh uh uh ke uh buttons which are used more in the middle of the remote control , and they should be bigger in size . uh the shape of remote control should be in a way which can which should be taken easily in hand . it should not be completely like uh a cube . it should be it should have round edge , so uh then it 's easier . industrial designer: exactly . user interface: and maybe uh just like some toys , some joystick which is easier to take inside the hand . and uh also f uh uh m because because customers does n't like to buy lots of battery , it should not uh consume lots of energy . okay . and my personal p uh preference is uh , as i said , uh just putting this buttons in a special places and covered some buttons which are not used uh that much like settings button , like mobile phone . usually some mobile phone cover the dialling number part , so we can cover these buttons which are not used or uh number buttons for the for the for the can channels , and just put uh volume change or s ch can uh channel change buttons uh uh in the remote control . and if the user needed to do some more complex task uh he he can open the cover and then change settings or something like this . uh . and also uh i think if we put some some some some some buttons inside of the remote control it can be used easier . not on remote control . i dunno if i can explain well . but uh just inside . for example , a sliding or rolling uh uh d uh stuff , if we put it inside then we can easily manipulate with uh thumb . so it can be another uh preference . and uh i dunno but uh i think usage of a speech recogn uh r recogniser can be good . i know that it consumes lots of energy , but if we do it in some way that it asleeps when there is no sound and when it detects some sound it may consume less energy . and i think it 's good because it 's something new and usually young people like something new . so it may not be very useful but because it 's new , people may buy it . uh i personally think there should be a big difference between uh between something . otherwise they prefer to buy something which is coming from a famous company , or . okay . that 's mine . project manager: okay . industrial designer: uh okay , so good news from me uh uh for me from hamed , but bad news from bob obviously , because spongy design , i do n't like it as marketing: project manager: industrial designer: okay , so could you please , fabien , open it . project manager: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: i 'm person two . and which one , uh probably the first one . i 'm not sure but check the first one . i most of the things i have to write myself on the board , but project manager: this one , yeah . industrial designer: yeah , that 's it . just it 's only this slide ? yeah . this this is just uh one thing i wanted to mention and show you that i just uh i just found this , that our company uh developed a s a seven f seven fingers or i 'll just marketing: inch . industrial designer: yeah , seven seven inch t_ t_f_t_ screen , which is good news for us , since we wanted to include a display there . uh so i i probably draw it down raw scheme . project manager: oh , . industrial designer: this is this is the stuff that i can use to project manager: oops . industrial designer: okay , so the this will be like the overall scheme or overall requirements from the engineering point of view . uh first thing is uh this will be the overall shape , no uh i 'm not speaking about the real shape of the device , but the shape of the inside of the device . so there will be some circuit uh for the power . so , say power circuit here . uh the main energy will be taken from batteries that we can uh uh and if we decide to use the speech recognition stuff there , we must use additional source of energy , which i found the best is to use the solar cells which can which can uh supply everything . i was computing all the all the things related to the speech recognition , and it 's okay to use just uh two batteries and solar cells , so . so no problem . there can be also solar cell . uh the main board with all the circuits will take at least seven to seven centimetres , so this is my like hard requirement for the guys from the design . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so at least seven to seven . it depends where you put your screen , because the screen is uh seven inch , so it depends on you where where you put it . marketing: industrial designer: it does n't matter . um it 's just one cord from from the main board to the screen which can be elsewhere . so this will be t_f_t_ . and on the main board we have the um interface to the microphone , which is somewhere , say here . interface to the microphone . then the graphical card uh for the t_f_t_ and the third unit is the i_r_ . the good news is that we can uh we decided to use the infra-red unit because our company has also developed the chip for communication by the infra-red , including all the stuff inside , so it will be very cheap for us . so infra-red here . so the once again the overall requirements , seven to seven centimetres for the board , which has to be which can be spongy but has to be this size , and the t_f_t_ which is seven inches . um i have to check what i wanted to uh from my point of view i do n't care about the about the material used for the overall des uh ov all the device . project manager: can you fit any uh for example a t_f_t_ or any electronic device in a spongy thing , or is there any problem for that ? for example , put electronic card on a spongy thing , i can i can imagine it could be a problem . industrial designer: a all these things in in uh in this box are okay to put in in any shape , basically . project manager: yep . industrial designer: but we have to take care of the t_f_t_ . well , sponginess . maybe it a good feature , since it takes if it 's around the t_f_t_ then it 's good , because it 's just keeps it safe , project manager: okay . so industrial designer: i dunno . user interface: well maybe it can have two shells , a hard shell inside and a spongy shell outside . marketing: so project manager: okay . maybe put electronic in a box and a spongy thing around . maybe after . industrial designer: well , it 's maybe related to the u_i_ . marketing: so project manager: yeah . marketing: ca can i ask a question . industrial designer: a yeah , that 's all from me . marketing: this seven inch t_f_t_ screen , industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: how big is it in reality ? industrial designer: well , seven to seven inches . marketing: so like that . industrial designer: yes . project manager: user interface: marketing: that 's quite big . industrial designer: marketing: uh uh have we decided that we 're gon na use this t_f_t_ screen ? project manager: no , i do n't think it 's seven by seven , industrial designer: yeah but project manager: i think it 's seven the diagonal is seven . industrial designer: to be honest , i was project manager: usually when they say seven inch i think it 's the diagonal . user interface: yeah yes . marketing: but i mean even even that is like this big . project manager: yeah . i dunno i dun i dun one each user interface: marketing: project manager: . but , yeah , . industrial designer: yeah , honestly speaking i was thinking that it was seven centimetres initially , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but it 's seven inches . but i i think we can we can cut it . marketing: you can cut the t_f_t_ screen . project manager: let 's go . industrial designer: yeah , no no problem , user interface: industrial designer: because because because then the size of the graphic card will be one fourth . project manager: so let 's cut the t_f_t_ . industrial designer: so marketing: industrial designer: yeah , but no problem to to me to cut the screen . user interface: mm . marketing: okay , so industrial designer: so so for the same price we have four screens now . project manager: mm . marketing: okay . project manager: these technical engineers , huh . marketing: so , what 's the size of the device ? industrial designer: ah well this is like this is almost nothing . seven to seven to at least well some three millimetres or something . marketing: even from my perspective seven t seven centimetres by seven centimetres is still industrial designer: yeah , but we wanted the big buttons and stuff like that , you know . marketing: is it can you hold that , or ? industrial designer: because if it 's t too small we can we can lose it , at home , you know . project manager: what user wants . he wants a small remote control , or ? uh uh with big buttons . user interface: uh . industrial designer: i thought that it it should fit in the hand or something . marketing: yeah , a small c control that they can hold in hand . project manager: it 's difficult . user interface: yes . project manager: a sm industrial designer: marketing: but is something that 's seven centimetres square e easy to hold ? user interface: industrial designer: w i i think so . i if the roller buttons are on the side you do n't have to catch it like that , but just like this , and you know follow follow well , that 's that 's no task for me , but well seven to seven at least yeah , project manager: so maybe you can finish your presentation , user interface: project manager: and afterwards we will discuss about all this . industrial designer: but oh , okay . user interface: maybe this . marketing: okay . industrial designer: okay thanks . project manager: that 's it . okay . so . no . uh , so i think we have a lot we have to take decision today , so i think we have to do some work to finalise our idea and take decisions . uh first i think energy it 's a key problem because uh it depend what can we have as feature if we use only batteries , for example , or something like that . because can we have lcd and speech recognition with battery , and it 's also r related to the size of the of the devi of the device ? industrial designer: not j uh just a point to the energy th things . if we use the batteries , and the additional so solar cell , then it 's okay for l_ uh speech recognition and lcd , project manager: okay . industrial designer: so no problem in energy , i think . project manager: so okay . industrial designer: but we have to use the solar cell . user interface: so but project manager: uh like industrial designer: otherwise not . project manager: but using how many batteries , for example ? are are what maybe what is the size of the battery industrial designer: yeah i was thinking just common a_a_ cells . project manager: okay . uh one two industrial designer: so like three to five centimetres , project manager: okay . industrial designer: i dunno exactly , but . marketing: so if we use s solar cells , um where is the sun if someone 's watching tv inside ? industrial designer: s uh d does n't need to be sun . it it 's just the daylight , you know . marketing: okay . project manager: the television lights . industrial designer: yeah well i i suppose that i suppose that uh that this remote control wo n't be in the in the room like this , where there is light only when when there are people , but . user interface: marketing: project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: at least when there is tv you can get light from the tv . industrial designer: yeah from the t_ user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i do n't think it 's enough , uh . project manager: i dunno . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . mm . industrial designer: ah it 's a it 's a compromise , no ? marketing: project manager: at least it 's new and maybe technology new technology . industrial designer: yeah , that 's why i wanted to to include the speech recognition , because you wanted all the new things . marketing: it 's it 's quite innovative , yes . project manager: yeah . user interface: hmm . project manager: um . marketing: and if you watch tv outside it 's very useful . user interface: project manager: so i think before talking about the other thing , it 's important thing it 's the case . industrial designer: project manager: uh what what are gon na be the size , because its weight drives the other what we are going to use as features and so on . for example for the for the lcd , if we choose to have a small device , we can not use this um a such a a a screen . industrial designer: uh the s the screen is okay , but the board , uh that 's the problem . well what what would you guess as a shape ? or what what would be the shape ? user interface: mm . i think i think their being uh large or small is not important . the only important thing is to be able to take it in uh inside hand easily . so let 's say an average size , okay , industrial designer: mm . user interface: and it should not be very heavy also . and i prefer to is it should n't have a uniform shape , so in the middle it should be a little bit thinner , maybe maybe . so we c it 's like like some joysticks . you can take uh some some joystick you can take inside hand easier because it 's it 's designed for your f uh taking into account your finger shape and your palm shape . so the general shape should be like this . i think uh seven centimetre by seven centimetre is a little bit large . so uh seven not seven but let 's say five by ten it 's i think it 's that 's my opinion . it 's easier . industrial designer: okay . marketing: which is the same area . industrial designer: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: could you re could you redesign your board ? industrial designer: five to ten . well that marketing: oh , five five centimetres by ten centimetres . industrial designer: yeah , right . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , i think it 's feasib well one um um how could we do it ? we could put the board next to , well , under the lcd and for example make the lcd be totally unrelated to the thing that you hold in your hand . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like holding something , and the lcd to be just on top of it , you know somehow . well but maybe let 's stick to the s spongy thing , like one unit . project manager: oh . i 've i s i think the easiest thing would be to to have a smaller lcd , if it 's possible . industrial designer: well fi five to ten it would be feasible . user interface: mm . industrial designer: okay , so five to ten , i i think it 's it 's feasible . project manager: okay . so we are agree with a small industrial designer: i 'll make it . user interface: or uh or i do n't know project manager: lcd . industrial designer: fo five by ten . user interface: but i do n't want to now invent something new , because we did n't discuss about it . so using some lcds we can touch , so we can remove uh keys and just uh having uh , i dunno the name , lcd responding to fingers . project manager: yeah . user interface: touching the screen . something like project manager: tactile or something , yeah . user interface: mm like tactile . marketing: mm , touch screen . project manager: touch screen , yeah . user interface: so but for now if we do n't want to use such kind of screens i i think we using a a smaller screen is better , project manager: yeah . user interface: because project manager: the problem is we have a limit in a month of time , so we can not do something very new . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: project manager: so let 's go for a small lcd . marketing: so industrial designer: okay , so yeah , so so just just give me the the the five by ten numbers that you find the best and send it me user interface: a smaller s project manager: yeah okay . user interface: okay . project manager: so , five by s ten . industrial designer: and i will work it out . marketing: industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um so what about , so the case we talked about . um something easy to use , you said something easy to use but how does that fit in a fashion way , like with fruit and vegetable , and about the colour and logo of the of the company and so on , now , can we do that ? my first idea is because our colour is more yellow , and the it should be easy to take in a hand , i thought about banana , or something like that , which is fruits , and industrial designer: seven to ten banana . project manager: a big banana . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: okay . rather mango or something or . project manager: um . marketing: well it 's it 's definitely the obvious choice , with the colour of our company . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: marketing: i mean what other what other fruit and vegetables project manager: but it 's just an idea . i dunno what you think about , but marketing: do you know of any any other fruit and vegetables that are yellow ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: i dunno if it can fit with the technology . you are the specialists of that . industrial designer: you mean banana . project manager: industrial designer: well , but if it 's if it if the banana is big enough . project manager: so marketing: user interface: industrial designer: then , yes . but if you want to look at the screen , no . well user interface: project manager: yeah , and industrial designer: user interface: i think this is not good . project manager: the screen has to be square ? or it can be like a a shape , quite , uh with curves . industrial designer: well , it can be whatever you want . project manager: it could . industrial designer: but if it 's square then we get four screens out of one by cutting just . but if you want some shape then we can only get like two screens out of seven to seven inches , so . marketing: project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: it 's like more more expensive to have shape like that . but i do n't care . you know , if we fit this requirement . marketing: well i 'd like a shaped screen . i think that 's more important than saving a bit of money on on the t_f_t_ screen . project manager: okay industrial designer: okay project manager: okay . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah , m maybe the banana could be like a bit uh fatter than than the c c common one . project manager: yeah . yeah , it should remember banana , but it 's not does n't have to b to be uh uh really the size and exactly the shape of a banana . user interface: industrial designer: but user interface: industrial designer: like modified banana , okay . project manager: so we are agree with the banana thing ? industrial designer: well it we 'll stick to banana , or ? user interface: okay . marketing: yeah , banana 's good . project manager: okay . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . industrial designer: mm-mm . project manager: so , the last point we decided it 's infra-red , i guess . user interface: yeah , i think infra-red . project manager: everybody 's agreed . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . sure . project manager: uh , so that 's it i think about the concepts . you have other thing to add to this point , or uh no ? so , uh about the user interface , so we are going to use lcd . in the last meeting we talked about uh hidden buttons . i do n't know what we are going to do with that . you talked about the buttons on the side industrial designer: like like peeling of the banana you s user interface: yeah , peeling of the banana . project manager: mm what ? industrial designer: it would be cool , yeah . user interface: industrial designer: peeling of the banana , you know , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: should should discover the other buttons , which are hidden . user interface: yeah . marketing: user interface: mm . marketing: project manager: okay . and you mean the first layer would be spongy . user interface: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: first layer obviously spo yeah , project manager: so industrial designer: w it 's it 's like silly , but the people will really appreciate it , yeah i think . project manager: is it is it possible to do that ? it would be a great idea , but is it possible technically ? user interface: uh project manager: like doing a spongy layer of the banana , and you open it . marketing: i think if we if we have a spongy layer on the outside of the banana then it 's easy to make that , project manager: yeah . marketing: you know , to manipulate that to hav be a cover that you can pull off and user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah , some something like a plastic cover covering uh some interface , u_s_b_ interface as in the in uh digital camera . if you see it 's like peeling . you open a plastic cover and you see some u_s_b_ interfaces , some some interfaces for adaptor . so keys can be uh buttons can be covered like this , with a plastic cover and uh when uh and when you open this cover it 's like peeling a banana . so , something like this . project manager: yeah , but do you see that as a rigid thing , or like like a banana , something very soft , you can open like banana , or . industrial designer: well is it possible to make it soft ? user interface: yeah , yeah , yeah it 's a lic like a plastic cover , so . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so i think if it 's so then it 's cool ? project manager: so , i dunno what you think , bob , but it would be great for users i think , and very good for marketing . marketing: i think for sure . definitely . the softer the better . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: cool . user interface: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: honestly speaking , i can not imagine it , so far , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but it will be terrible . user interface: project manager: um . and setting buttons hidden in . industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm , other remarks , or something , or . something we did n't talk about yes yet , or . i think we are almost there . uh maybe , how can we , if we have a soft thing , like this , and to open it we have to attach it somewhere , i dunno how to do that technically , or . industrial designer: project manager: and how user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: pof . marketing: we could use velcro . project manager: yeah , maybe . marketing: or uh ma maybe a magnetic user interface: yes , yeah it 's a good idea . marketing: thing . project manager: ma magnetic oh . user interface: magnetic . mm . yeah or a yeah it can is it can be a plastic cover uh sticking to the to the all the stuff like uh with magnetic p uh magnetic uh magnetic uh materials in the border , so it 's it sticks like refrigerator door , completely . project manager: okay . user interface: and when you try to open it , it will be opened easily . so you you can be sure that it will not be open while you 're uh while while uh you are commonly using uh buttons on the banana . project manager: okay . and what would be the matter here of the first layer i mean ? mm . likes . soft plastic , or marketing: yeah , i imagine some sort of vinyl thing . project manager: yeah , yeah , yeah . marketing: in a in a sort of a with a suede sort of feel . maybe . industrial designer: well since since the since the things like the like the screen and um how to say that , solar cell has to be has to be like kept kept in the shape , we can not b uh so we need that the that the peeling uh i dunno but we should we should take care of these two two things . so , if if uh the solar cell wo n't be visible while the banana is closed , then the material must be able to put the light inside , you know . so that we can reach the energy out of it out of that . user interface: mm . marketing: mm . so you 're saying is it possible to have a solar cell and this removable cover and industrial designer: it is possible , but , well if it marketing: and a and a banana . industrial designer: i dunno . user interface: mm . industrial designer: i dunno how to how to do it if if t if to if it 's better to put the solar cell to the t to the peeling or outside it , or or inside . project manager: hmm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but then it must be some window there , you know . marketing: okay . user interface: mm . project manager: and something we forgot , maybe , uh about the speech recognition system , are we going to use it , or not ? marketing: user interface: yes , i think . i think so . marketing: i think it 's important . project manager: it i yeah , it seems feasible , and it would be something very great . marketing: i think one of our p priorities is tech technology . project manager: so we have the de design , the a good shape , new and so on , user interface: mm . marketing: and user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: and we have also the technology thing w will be . and even the easy to use thing , user interface: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so it will be perfect . user interface: mm . project manager: so we add also the speech recognition device . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . i agree . project manager: so , that great . we have decided everything . and think we are on a good way . so , um uh the next meeting will start in thirty minutes . um , so uh the the industrial manager uh will uh will work on the look and feel design . the user interface uh uh mana uh manager will work on the user interface device . and the the marketing expert will do the first project evaluation . marketing: okay . project manager: so , i hope you can do that in thirty minutes . marketing: user interface: project manager: and uh , yeah , i uh i think you should work together , s you uh hamed and peter , to work uh in a in a first prototype , and uh more about the shape and so on and how you can manage to put everything together . and um as usual you will receive some specific instructions on . so thank you all everybody , industrial designer: okay . project manager: and see you in thirty minutes . marketing: okay . industrial designer: okay . marketing: thank you .

the industrial designer thought that the solar cell was necessary for speech recognition . he mentioned that the daylight was enough for recharging . and he supposed that the remote control would be in the room which was usually lightful .

summarize the discussion about the size and shape of the remote control . </s> project manager: hello , uh this meeting we are it 's fo should be focused on the conceptual design of the remote control . marketing: hello . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: hello . project manager: um the goal of this meeting is to reach a decision at the end on the concept and i think the last time we talked about an a lot and we had a rough idea of what is going to be , but uh in th at the end of this meeting we have to to reach a decision . so , uh we will have again three presentation , from all of you , and uh i hope it will be fast because i would like to have time to for long discussion and and decisions . so , who wants to start ? okay . user interface: i s marketing: okay . user interface: no , no , you you can start . project manager: so start , uh marketing: okay , i 'll start . can you open my presentation , project manager: marketing: please . project manager: uh . marketing: i 'm number four . project manager: this one ? marketing: trend . yep . can you pass the mouse , please . oh okay , that 's fine . project manager: turn . marketing: okay . um so basically i just want to presented to you present to you some recent results we 've had from um looking at uh um some remote control market research and some fashion trends around the world . um the fashion trends we got from talking to our our contacts in the fashion industry based in paris and milan . um so f from our market research basically we 've come to the conclusion that a fancy look and feel , um as opposed to a functional look and feel , is our number one priority . um fancy is is is is the , you know , highest priority . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: secondly um that our remote control needs to be techn technologically innovative . um so this is t number two priority but it 's two times less important as the fancy criteria . um and third thirdly the easiness of use is is the um is is important as well , but again two times less important as the technologically innovativeness of the remote control . from our f fashion people in paris and milan , um we 've discovered that this year um fruit the fruit and vegetable motif will be the most important thing in in clothes , shoes and furniture . so , i 'm pretty confident that our remote control fits into the furniture category . and also um the feel of material this year um is expected to be spongy . project manager: okay . marketing: um so hopefully our remote control reflects that s in some way . industrial designer: what does it mean , spongy ? marketing: uh sort of um squishy . industrial designer: like soft , or something ? marketing: um . yeah soft , project manager: marketing: like a uh like a sponge . project manager: like a sponge . yeah . marketing: i do n't know . yeah . industrial designer: okay . i will see . marketing: um so in conclusion , we need a our remote control needs to be something that 's really fancy , um has lots of technolog tech technology in it . um somehow would be good to have it related to fruit and vegetables with a spongy feel . project manager: industrial designer: okay . user interface: marketing: and that it 's easy to use and from our last meeting our you know fabian told us that w you know one of the requirements is that we have to reflect the look and feel of our of th the real reaction company . um . industrial designer: project manager: yeah , uh yeah . marketing: that 's it . project manager: easy to use , is it uh a as much as important than technology or fancy thing . it 's less important , right ? marketing: less important . project manager: yeah yeah . marketing: so um fanciness first and then two ti you know , half as important as that is technology technology , project manager: okay . marketing: and half important as technology is easy to use . so . project manager: so , hamed , can you . user interface: yeah . the second one . could you please show the presentation number three . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i think the biggest struggle will be the easy to use feature . project manager: um . number ? industrial designer: we 'll see . user interface: yeah . project manager: three . user interface: three . project manager: this one ? user interface: yes . just could you please check if it is the first one or the second . uh , n n no , it 's the first one . the second one . project manager: so it 's not this one . user interface: uh yeah . okay . okay . so i am going to talk about a little bit about how this remote control should be appear to be more easy to use . i think uh i think the feature easy to use is more important than being fancy , but okay , we can discuss about it uh later . um generally , generally uh this remote control uh uh should be should be something , in my opinion , uh the first feature is just to be easy to use . so , the more frequent buttons should be larger , they should be placed in a good position uh uh inside the remote control . and uh s uh i can conclude like this , that we should n't need to learn how to use it . it should be we should n't need to es open a a t book and uh start reading and uh learning how to use this uh this uh remote control . okay . so what i found out that uh as i said uh i think it 's better to put uh more frequent uh uh uh ke uh buttons which are used more in the middle of the remote control , and they should be bigger in size . uh the shape of remote control should be in a way which can which should be taken easily in hand . it should not be completely like uh a cube . it should be it should have round edge , so uh then it 's easier . industrial designer: exactly . user interface: and maybe uh just like some toys , some joystick which is easier to take inside the hand . and uh also f uh uh m because because customers does n't like to buy lots of battery , it should not uh consume lots of energy . okay . and my personal p uh preference is uh , as i said , uh just putting this buttons in a special places and covered some buttons which are not used uh that much like settings button , like mobile phone . usually some mobile phone cover the dialling number part , so we can cover these buttons which are not used or uh number buttons for the for the for the can channels , and just put uh volume change or s ch can uh channel change buttons uh uh in the remote control . and if the user needed to do some more complex task uh he he can open the cover and then change settings or something like this . uh . and also uh i think if we put some some some some some buttons inside of the remote control it can be used easier . not on remote control . i dunno if i can explain well . but uh just inside . for example , a sliding or rolling uh uh d uh stuff , if we put it inside then we can easily manipulate with uh thumb . so it can be another uh preference . and uh i dunno but uh i think usage of a speech recogn uh r recogniser can be good . i know that it consumes lots of energy , but if we do it in some way that it asleeps when there is no sound and when it detects some sound it may consume less energy . and i think it 's good because it 's something new and usually young people like something new . so it may not be very useful but because it 's new , people may buy it . uh i personally think there should be a big difference between uh between something . otherwise they prefer to buy something which is coming from a famous company , or . okay . that 's mine . project manager: okay . industrial designer: uh okay , so good news from me uh uh for me from hamed , but bad news from bob obviously , because spongy design , i do n't like it as marketing: project manager: industrial designer: okay , so could you please , fabien , open it . project manager: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: i 'm person two . and which one , uh probably the first one . i 'm not sure but check the first one . i most of the things i have to write myself on the board , but project manager: this one , yeah . industrial designer: yeah , that 's it . just it 's only this slide ? yeah . this this is just uh one thing i wanted to mention and show you that i just uh i just found this , that our company uh developed a s a seven f seven fingers or i 'll just marketing: inch . industrial designer: yeah , seven seven inch t_ t_f_t_ screen , which is good news for us , since we wanted to include a display there . uh so i i probably draw it down raw scheme . project manager: oh , . industrial designer: this is this is the stuff that i can use to project manager: oops . industrial designer: okay , so the this will be like the overall scheme or overall requirements from the engineering point of view . uh first thing is uh this will be the overall shape , no uh i 'm not speaking about the real shape of the device , but the shape of the inside of the device . so there will be some circuit uh for the power . so , say power circuit here . uh the main energy will be taken from batteries that we can uh uh and if we decide to use the speech recognition stuff there , we must use additional source of energy , which i found the best is to use the solar cells which can which can uh supply everything . i was computing all the all the things related to the speech recognition , and it 's okay to use just uh two batteries and solar cells , so . so no problem . there can be also solar cell . uh the main board with all the circuits will take at least seven to seven centimetres , so this is my like hard requirement for the guys from the design . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so at least seven to seven . it depends where you put your screen , because the screen is uh seven inch , so it depends on you where where you put it . marketing: industrial designer: it does n't matter . um it 's just one cord from from the main board to the screen which can be elsewhere . so this will be t_f_t_ . and on the main board we have the um interface to the microphone , which is somewhere , say here . interface to the microphone . then the graphical card uh for the t_f_t_ and the third unit is the i_r_ . the good news is that we can uh we decided to use the infra-red unit because our company has also developed the chip for communication by the infra-red , including all the stuff inside , so it will be very cheap for us . so infra-red here . so the once again the overall requirements , seven to seven centimetres for the board , which has to be which can be spongy but has to be this size , and the t_f_t_ which is seven inches . um i have to check what i wanted to uh from my point of view i do n't care about the about the material used for the overall des uh ov all the device . project manager: can you fit any uh for example a t_f_t_ or any electronic device in a spongy thing , or is there any problem for that ? for example , put electronic card on a spongy thing , i can i can imagine it could be a problem . industrial designer: a all these things in in uh in this box are okay to put in in any shape , basically . project manager: yep . industrial designer: but we have to take care of the t_f_t_ . well , sponginess . maybe it a good feature , since it takes if it 's around the t_f_t_ then it 's good , because it 's just keeps it safe , project manager: okay . so industrial designer: i dunno . user interface: well maybe it can have two shells , a hard shell inside and a spongy shell outside . marketing: so project manager: okay . maybe put electronic in a box and a spongy thing around . maybe after . industrial designer: well , it 's maybe related to the u_i_ . marketing: so project manager: yeah . marketing: ca can i ask a question . industrial designer: a yeah , that 's all from me . marketing: this seven inch t_f_t_ screen , industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: how big is it in reality ? industrial designer: well , seven to seven inches . marketing: so like that . industrial designer: yes . project manager: user interface: marketing: that 's quite big . industrial designer: marketing: uh uh have we decided that we 're gon na use this t_f_t_ screen ? project manager: no , i do n't think it 's seven by seven , industrial designer: yeah but project manager: i think it 's seven the diagonal is seven . industrial designer: to be honest , i was project manager: usually when they say seven inch i think it 's the diagonal . user interface: yeah yes . marketing: but i mean even even that is like this big . project manager: yeah . i dunno i dun i dun one each user interface: marketing: project manager: . but , yeah , . industrial designer: yeah , honestly speaking i was thinking that it was seven centimetres initially , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but it 's seven inches . but i i think we can we can cut it . marketing: you can cut the t_f_t_ screen . project manager: let 's go . industrial designer: yeah , no no problem , user interface: industrial designer: because because because then the size of the graphic card will be one fourth . project manager: so let 's cut the t_f_t_ . industrial designer: so marketing: industrial designer: yeah , but no problem to to me to cut the screen . user interface: mm . marketing: okay , so industrial designer: so so for the same price we have four screens now . project manager: mm . marketing: okay . project manager: these technical engineers , huh . marketing: so , what 's the size of the device ? industrial designer: ah well this is like this is almost nothing . seven to seven to at least well some three millimetres or something . marketing: even from my perspective seven t seven centimetres by seven centimetres is still industrial designer: yeah , but we wanted the big buttons and stuff like that , you know . marketing: is it can you hold that , or ? industrial designer: because if it 's t too small we can we can lose it , at home , you know . project manager: what user wants . he wants a small remote control , or ? uh uh with big buttons . user interface: uh . industrial designer: i thought that it it should fit in the hand or something . marketing: yeah , a small c control that they can hold in hand . project manager: it 's difficult . user interface: yes . project manager: a sm industrial designer: marketing: but is something that 's seven centimetres square e easy to hold ? user interface: industrial designer: w i i think so . i if the roller buttons are on the side you do n't have to catch it like that , but just like this , and you know follow follow well , that 's that 's no task for me , but well seven to seven at least yeah , project manager: so maybe you can finish your presentation , user interface: project manager: and afterwards we will discuss about all this . industrial designer: but oh , okay . user interface: maybe this . marketing: okay . industrial designer: okay thanks . project manager: that 's it . okay . so . no . uh , so i think we have a lot we have to take decision today , so i think we have to do some work to finalise our idea and take decisions . uh first i think energy it 's a key problem because uh it depend what can we have as feature if we use only batteries , for example , or something like that . because can we have lcd and speech recognition with battery , and it 's also r related to the size of the of the devi of the device ? industrial designer: not j uh just a point to the energy th things . if we use the batteries , and the additional so solar cell , then it 's okay for l_ uh speech recognition and lcd , project manager: okay . industrial designer: so no problem in energy , i think . project manager: so okay . industrial designer: but we have to use the solar cell . user interface: so but project manager: uh like industrial designer: otherwise not . project manager: but using how many batteries , for example ? are are what maybe what is the size of the battery industrial designer: yeah i was thinking just common a_a_ cells . project manager: okay . uh one two industrial designer: so like three to five centimetres , project manager: okay . industrial designer: i dunno exactly , but . marketing: so if we use s solar cells , um where is the sun if someone 's watching tv inside ? industrial designer: s uh d does n't need to be sun . it it 's just the daylight , you know . marketing: okay . project manager: the television lights . industrial designer: yeah well i i suppose that i suppose that uh that this remote control wo n't be in the in the room like this , where there is light only when when there are people , but . user interface: marketing: project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: at least when there is tv you can get light from the tv . industrial designer: yeah from the t_ user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i do n't think it 's enough , uh . project manager: i dunno . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . mm . industrial designer: ah it 's a it 's a compromise , no ? marketing: project manager: at least it 's new and maybe technology new technology . industrial designer: yeah , that 's why i wanted to to include the speech recognition , because you wanted all the new things . marketing: it 's it 's quite innovative , yes . project manager: yeah . user interface: hmm . project manager: um . marketing: and if you watch tv outside it 's very useful . user interface: project manager: so i think before talking about the other thing , it 's important thing it 's the case . industrial designer: project manager: uh what what are gon na be the size , because its weight drives the other what we are going to use as features and so on . for example for the for the lcd , if we choose to have a small device , we can not use this um a such a a a screen . industrial designer: uh the s the screen is okay , but the board , uh that 's the problem . well what what would you guess as a shape ? or what what would be the shape ? user interface: mm . i think i think their being uh large or small is not important . the only important thing is to be able to take it in uh inside hand easily . so let 's say an average size , okay , industrial designer: mm . user interface: and it should not be very heavy also . and i prefer to is it should n't have a uniform shape , so in the middle it should be a little bit thinner , maybe maybe . so we c it 's like like some joysticks . you can take uh some some joystick you can take inside hand easier because it 's it 's designed for your f uh taking into account your finger shape and your palm shape . so the general shape should be like this . i think uh seven centimetre by seven centimetre is a little bit large . so uh seven not seven but let 's say five by ten it 's i think it 's that 's my opinion . it 's easier . industrial designer: okay . marketing: which is the same area . industrial designer: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: could you re could you redesign your board ? industrial designer: five to ten . well that marketing: oh , five five centimetres by ten centimetres . industrial designer: yeah , right . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , i think it 's feasib well one um um how could we do it ? we could put the board next to , well , under the lcd and for example make the lcd be totally unrelated to the thing that you hold in your hand . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like holding something , and the lcd to be just on top of it , you know somehow . well but maybe let 's stick to the s spongy thing , like one unit . project manager: oh . i 've i s i think the easiest thing would be to to have a smaller lcd , if it 's possible . industrial designer: well fi five to ten it would be feasible . user interface: mm . industrial designer: okay , so five to ten , i i think it 's it 's feasible . project manager: okay . so we are agree with a small industrial designer: i 'll make it . user interface: or uh or i do n't know project manager: lcd . industrial designer: fo five by ten . user interface: but i do n't want to now invent something new , because we did n't discuss about it . so using some lcds we can touch , so we can remove uh keys and just uh having uh , i dunno the name , lcd responding to fingers . project manager: yeah . user interface: touching the screen . something like project manager: tactile or something , yeah . user interface: mm like tactile . marketing: mm , touch screen . project manager: touch screen , yeah . user interface: so but for now if we do n't want to use such kind of screens i i think we using a a smaller screen is better , project manager: yeah . user interface: because project manager: the problem is we have a limit in a month of time , so we can not do something very new . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: project manager: so let 's go for a small lcd . marketing: so industrial designer: okay , so yeah , so so just just give me the the the five by ten numbers that you find the best and send it me user interface: a smaller s project manager: yeah okay . user interface: okay . project manager: so , five by s ten . industrial designer: and i will work it out . marketing: industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um so what about , so the case we talked about . um something easy to use , you said something easy to use but how does that fit in a fashion way , like with fruit and vegetable , and about the colour and logo of the of the company and so on , now , can we do that ? my first idea is because our colour is more yellow , and the it should be easy to take in a hand , i thought about banana , or something like that , which is fruits , and industrial designer: seven to ten banana . project manager: a big banana . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: okay . rather mango or something or . project manager: um . marketing: well it 's it 's definitely the obvious choice , with the colour of our company . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: marketing: i mean what other what other fruit and vegetables project manager: but it 's just an idea . i dunno what you think about , but marketing: do you know of any any other fruit and vegetables that are yellow ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: i dunno if it can fit with the technology . you are the specialists of that . industrial designer: you mean banana . project manager: industrial designer: well , but if it 's if it if the banana is big enough . project manager: so marketing: user interface: industrial designer: then , yes . but if you want to look at the screen , no . well user interface: project manager: yeah , and industrial designer: user interface: i think this is not good . project manager: the screen has to be square ? or it can be like a a shape , quite , uh with curves . industrial designer: well , it can be whatever you want . project manager: it could . industrial designer: but if it 's square then we get four screens out of one by cutting just . but if you want some shape then we can only get like two screens out of seven to seven inches , so . marketing: project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: it 's like more more expensive to have shape like that . but i do n't care . you know , if we fit this requirement . marketing: well i 'd like a shaped screen . i think that 's more important than saving a bit of money on on the t_f_t_ screen . project manager: okay industrial designer: okay project manager: okay . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah , m maybe the banana could be like a bit uh fatter than than the c c common one . project manager: yeah . yeah , it should remember banana , but it 's not does n't have to b to be uh uh really the size and exactly the shape of a banana . user interface: industrial designer: but user interface: industrial designer: like modified banana , okay . project manager: so we are agree with the banana thing ? industrial designer: well it we 'll stick to banana , or ? user interface: okay . marketing: yeah , banana 's good . project manager: okay . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . industrial designer: mm-mm . project manager: so , the last point we decided it 's infra-red , i guess . user interface: yeah , i think infra-red . project manager: everybody 's agreed . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . sure . project manager: uh , so that 's it i think about the concepts . you have other thing to add to this point , or uh no ? so , uh about the user interface , so we are going to use lcd . in the last meeting we talked about uh hidden buttons . i do n't know what we are going to do with that . you talked about the buttons on the side industrial designer: like like peeling of the banana you s user interface: yeah , peeling of the banana . project manager: mm what ? industrial designer: it would be cool , yeah . user interface: industrial designer: peeling of the banana , you know , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: should should discover the other buttons , which are hidden . user interface: yeah . marketing: user interface: mm . marketing: project manager: okay . and you mean the first layer would be spongy . user interface: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: first layer obviously spo yeah , project manager: so industrial designer: w it 's it 's like silly , but the people will really appreciate it , yeah i think . project manager: is it is it possible to do that ? it would be a great idea , but is it possible technically ? user interface: uh project manager: like doing a spongy layer of the banana , and you open it . marketing: i think if we if we have a spongy layer on the outside of the banana then it 's easy to make that , project manager: yeah . marketing: you know , to manipulate that to hav be a cover that you can pull off and user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah , some something like a plastic cover covering uh some interface , u_s_b_ interface as in the in uh digital camera . if you see it 's like peeling . you open a plastic cover and you see some u_s_b_ interfaces , some some interfaces for adaptor . so keys can be uh buttons can be covered like this , with a plastic cover and uh when uh and when you open this cover it 's like peeling a banana . so , something like this . project manager: yeah , but do you see that as a rigid thing , or like like a banana , something very soft , you can open like banana , or . industrial designer: well is it possible to make it soft ? user interface: yeah , yeah , yeah it 's a lic like a plastic cover , so . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so i think if it 's so then it 's cool ? project manager: so , i dunno what you think , bob , but it would be great for users i think , and very good for marketing . marketing: i think for sure . definitely . the softer the better . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: cool . user interface: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: honestly speaking , i can not imagine it , so far , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but it will be terrible . user interface: project manager: um . and setting buttons hidden in . industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm , other remarks , or something , or . something we did n't talk about yes yet , or . i think we are almost there . uh maybe , how can we , if we have a soft thing , like this , and to open it we have to attach it somewhere , i dunno how to do that technically , or . industrial designer: project manager: and how user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: pof . marketing: we could use velcro . project manager: yeah , maybe . marketing: or uh ma maybe a magnetic user interface: yes , yeah it 's a good idea . marketing: thing . project manager: ma magnetic oh . user interface: magnetic . mm . yeah or a yeah it can is it can be a plastic cover uh sticking to the to the all the stuff like uh with magnetic p uh magnetic uh magnetic uh materials in the border , so it 's it sticks like refrigerator door , completely . project manager: okay . user interface: and when you try to open it , it will be opened easily . so you you can be sure that it will not be open while you 're uh while while uh you are commonly using uh buttons on the banana . project manager: okay . and what would be the matter here of the first layer i mean ? mm . likes . soft plastic , or marketing: yeah , i imagine some sort of vinyl thing . project manager: yeah , yeah , yeah . marketing: in a in a sort of a with a suede sort of feel . maybe . industrial designer: well since since the since the things like the like the screen and um how to say that , solar cell has to be has to be like kept kept in the shape , we can not b uh so we need that the that the peeling uh i dunno but we should we should take care of these two two things . so , if if uh the solar cell wo n't be visible while the banana is closed , then the material must be able to put the light inside , you know . so that we can reach the energy out of it out of that . user interface: mm . marketing: mm . so you 're saying is it possible to have a solar cell and this removable cover and industrial designer: it is possible , but , well if it marketing: and a and a banana . industrial designer: i dunno . user interface: mm . industrial designer: i dunno how to how to do it if if t if to if it 's better to put the solar cell to the t to the peeling or outside it , or or inside . project manager: hmm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but then it must be some window there , you know . marketing: okay . user interface: mm . project manager: and something we forgot , maybe , uh about the speech recognition system , are we going to use it , or not ? marketing: user interface: yes , i think . i think so . marketing: i think it 's important . project manager: it i yeah , it seems feasible , and it would be something very great . marketing: i think one of our p priorities is tech technology . project manager: so we have the de design , the a good shape , new and so on , user interface: mm . marketing: and user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: and we have also the technology thing w will be . and even the easy to use thing , user interface: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so it will be perfect . user interface: mm . project manager: so we add also the speech recognition device . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . i agree . project manager: so , that great . we have decided everything . and think we are on a good way . so , um uh the next meeting will start in thirty minutes . um , so uh the the industrial manager uh will uh will work on the look and feel design . the user interface uh uh mana uh manager will work on the user interface device . and the the marketing expert will do the first project evaluation . marketing: okay . project manager: so , i hope you can do that in thirty minutes . marketing: user interface: project manager: and uh , yeah , i uh i think you should work together , s you uh hamed and peter , to work uh in a in a first prototype , and uh more about the shape and so on and how you can manage to put everything together . and um as usual you will receive some specific instructions on . so thank you all everybody , industrial designer: okay . project manager: and see you in thirty minutes . marketing: okay . industrial designer: okay . marketing: thank you .

the user interface said that no matter large or small , taking in hand easily was the most important thing . the project manager also wanted the shape to be fashionable . considering that the colour of their company was yellow , they decided to make the shape of the remote control like a banana .

summarize the discussion about the first layer when talking about detailed shape design . </s> project manager: hello , uh this meeting we are it 's fo should be focused on the conceptual design of the remote control . marketing: hello . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: hello . project manager: um the goal of this meeting is to reach a decision at the end on the concept and i think the last time we talked about an a lot and we had a rough idea of what is going to be , but uh in th at the end of this meeting we have to to reach a decision . so , uh we will have again three presentation , from all of you , and uh i hope it will be fast because i would like to have time to for long discussion and and decisions . so , who wants to start ? okay . user interface: i s marketing: okay . user interface: no , no , you you can start . project manager: so start , uh marketing: okay , i 'll start . can you open my presentation , project manager: marketing: please . project manager: uh . marketing: i 'm number four . project manager: this one ? marketing: trend . yep . can you pass the mouse , please . oh okay , that 's fine . project manager: turn . marketing: okay . um so basically i just want to presented to you present to you some recent results we 've had from um looking at uh um some remote control market research and some fashion trends around the world . um the fashion trends we got from talking to our our contacts in the fashion industry based in paris and milan . um so f from our market research basically we 've come to the conclusion that a fancy look and feel , um as opposed to a functional look and feel , is our number one priority . um fancy is is is is the , you know , highest priority . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: secondly um that our remote control needs to be techn technologically innovative . um so this is t number two priority but it 's two times less important as the fancy criteria . um and third thirdly the easiness of use is is the um is is important as well , but again two times less important as the technologically innovativeness of the remote control . from our f fashion people in paris and milan , um we 've discovered that this year um fruit the fruit and vegetable motif will be the most important thing in in clothes , shoes and furniture . so , i 'm pretty confident that our remote control fits into the furniture category . and also um the feel of material this year um is expected to be spongy . project manager: okay . marketing: um so hopefully our remote control reflects that s in some way . industrial designer: what does it mean , spongy ? marketing: uh sort of um squishy . industrial designer: like soft , or something ? marketing: um . yeah soft , project manager: marketing: like a uh like a sponge . project manager: like a sponge . yeah . marketing: i do n't know . yeah . industrial designer: okay . i will see . marketing: um so in conclusion , we need a our remote control needs to be something that 's really fancy , um has lots of technolog tech technology in it . um somehow would be good to have it related to fruit and vegetables with a spongy feel . project manager: industrial designer: okay . user interface: marketing: and that it 's easy to use and from our last meeting our you know fabian told us that w you know one of the requirements is that we have to reflect the look and feel of our of th the real reaction company . um . industrial designer: project manager: yeah , uh yeah . marketing: that 's it . project manager: easy to use , is it uh a as much as important than technology or fancy thing . it 's less important , right ? marketing: less important . project manager: yeah yeah . marketing: so um fanciness first and then two ti you know , half as important as that is technology technology , project manager: okay . marketing: and half important as technology is easy to use . so . project manager: so , hamed , can you . user interface: yeah . the second one . could you please show the presentation number three . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i think the biggest struggle will be the easy to use feature . project manager: um . number ? industrial designer: we 'll see . user interface: yeah . project manager: three . user interface: three . project manager: this one ? user interface: yes . just could you please check if it is the first one or the second . uh , n n no , it 's the first one . the second one . project manager: so it 's not this one . user interface: uh yeah . okay . okay . so i am going to talk about a little bit about how this remote control should be appear to be more easy to use . i think uh i think the feature easy to use is more important than being fancy , but okay , we can discuss about it uh later . um generally , generally uh this remote control uh uh should be should be something , in my opinion , uh the first feature is just to be easy to use . so , the more frequent buttons should be larger , they should be placed in a good position uh uh inside the remote control . and uh s uh i can conclude like this , that we should n't need to learn how to use it . it should be we should n't need to es open a a t book and uh start reading and uh learning how to use this uh this uh remote control . okay . so what i found out that uh as i said uh i think it 's better to put uh more frequent uh uh uh ke uh buttons which are used more in the middle of the remote control , and they should be bigger in size . uh the shape of remote control should be in a way which can which should be taken easily in hand . it should not be completely like uh a cube . it should be it should have round edge , so uh then it 's easier . industrial designer: exactly . user interface: and maybe uh just like some toys , some joystick which is easier to take inside the hand . and uh also f uh uh m because because customers does n't like to buy lots of battery , it should not uh consume lots of energy . okay . and my personal p uh preference is uh , as i said , uh just putting this buttons in a special places and covered some buttons which are not used uh that much like settings button , like mobile phone . usually some mobile phone cover the dialling number part , so we can cover these buttons which are not used or uh number buttons for the for the for the can channels , and just put uh volume change or s ch can uh channel change buttons uh uh in the remote control . and if the user needed to do some more complex task uh he he can open the cover and then change settings or something like this . uh . and also uh i think if we put some some some some some buttons inside of the remote control it can be used easier . not on remote control . i dunno if i can explain well . but uh just inside . for example , a sliding or rolling uh uh d uh stuff , if we put it inside then we can easily manipulate with uh thumb . so it can be another uh preference . and uh i dunno but uh i think usage of a speech recogn uh r recogniser can be good . i know that it consumes lots of energy , but if we do it in some way that it asleeps when there is no sound and when it detects some sound it may consume less energy . and i think it 's good because it 's something new and usually young people like something new . so it may not be very useful but because it 's new , people may buy it . uh i personally think there should be a big difference between uh between something . otherwise they prefer to buy something which is coming from a famous company , or . okay . that 's mine . project manager: okay . industrial designer: uh okay , so good news from me uh uh for me from hamed , but bad news from bob obviously , because spongy design , i do n't like it as marketing: project manager: industrial designer: okay , so could you please , fabien , open it . project manager: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: i 'm person two . and which one , uh probably the first one . i 'm not sure but check the first one . i most of the things i have to write myself on the board , but project manager: this one , yeah . industrial designer: yeah , that 's it . just it 's only this slide ? yeah . this this is just uh one thing i wanted to mention and show you that i just uh i just found this , that our company uh developed a s a seven f seven fingers or i 'll just marketing: inch . industrial designer: yeah , seven seven inch t_ t_f_t_ screen , which is good news for us , since we wanted to include a display there . uh so i i probably draw it down raw scheme . project manager: oh , . industrial designer: this is this is the stuff that i can use to project manager: oops . industrial designer: okay , so the this will be like the overall scheme or overall requirements from the engineering point of view . uh first thing is uh this will be the overall shape , no uh i 'm not speaking about the real shape of the device , but the shape of the inside of the device . so there will be some circuit uh for the power . so , say power circuit here . uh the main energy will be taken from batteries that we can uh uh and if we decide to use the speech recognition stuff there , we must use additional source of energy , which i found the best is to use the solar cells which can which can uh supply everything . i was computing all the all the things related to the speech recognition , and it 's okay to use just uh two batteries and solar cells , so . so no problem . there can be also solar cell . uh the main board with all the circuits will take at least seven to seven centimetres , so this is my like hard requirement for the guys from the design . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so at least seven to seven . it depends where you put your screen , because the screen is uh seven inch , so it depends on you where where you put it . marketing: industrial designer: it does n't matter . um it 's just one cord from from the main board to the screen which can be elsewhere . so this will be t_f_t_ . and on the main board we have the um interface to the microphone , which is somewhere , say here . interface to the microphone . then the graphical card uh for the t_f_t_ and the third unit is the i_r_ . the good news is that we can uh we decided to use the infra-red unit because our company has also developed the chip for communication by the infra-red , including all the stuff inside , so it will be very cheap for us . so infra-red here . so the once again the overall requirements , seven to seven centimetres for the board , which has to be which can be spongy but has to be this size , and the t_f_t_ which is seven inches . um i have to check what i wanted to uh from my point of view i do n't care about the about the material used for the overall des uh ov all the device . project manager: can you fit any uh for example a t_f_t_ or any electronic device in a spongy thing , or is there any problem for that ? for example , put electronic card on a spongy thing , i can i can imagine it could be a problem . industrial designer: a all these things in in uh in this box are okay to put in in any shape , basically . project manager: yep . industrial designer: but we have to take care of the t_f_t_ . well , sponginess . maybe it a good feature , since it takes if it 's around the t_f_t_ then it 's good , because it 's just keeps it safe , project manager: okay . so industrial designer: i dunno . user interface: well maybe it can have two shells , a hard shell inside and a spongy shell outside . marketing: so project manager: okay . maybe put electronic in a box and a spongy thing around . maybe after . industrial designer: well , it 's maybe related to the u_i_ . marketing: so project manager: yeah . marketing: ca can i ask a question . industrial designer: a yeah , that 's all from me . marketing: this seven inch t_f_t_ screen , industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: how big is it in reality ? industrial designer: well , seven to seven inches . marketing: so like that . industrial designer: yes . project manager: user interface: marketing: that 's quite big . industrial designer: marketing: uh uh have we decided that we 're gon na use this t_f_t_ screen ? project manager: no , i do n't think it 's seven by seven , industrial designer: yeah but project manager: i think it 's seven the diagonal is seven . industrial designer: to be honest , i was project manager: usually when they say seven inch i think it 's the diagonal . user interface: yeah yes . marketing: but i mean even even that is like this big . project manager: yeah . i dunno i dun i dun one each user interface: marketing: project manager: . but , yeah , . industrial designer: yeah , honestly speaking i was thinking that it was seven centimetres initially , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but it 's seven inches . but i i think we can we can cut it . marketing: you can cut the t_f_t_ screen . project manager: let 's go . industrial designer: yeah , no no problem , user interface: industrial designer: because because because then the size of the graphic card will be one fourth . project manager: so let 's cut the t_f_t_ . industrial designer: so marketing: industrial designer: yeah , but no problem to to me to cut the screen . user interface: mm . marketing: okay , so industrial designer: so so for the same price we have four screens now . project manager: mm . marketing: okay . project manager: these technical engineers , huh . marketing: so , what 's the size of the device ? industrial designer: ah well this is like this is almost nothing . seven to seven to at least well some three millimetres or something . marketing: even from my perspective seven t seven centimetres by seven centimetres is still industrial designer: yeah , but we wanted the big buttons and stuff like that , you know . marketing: is it can you hold that , or ? industrial designer: because if it 's t too small we can we can lose it , at home , you know . project manager: what user wants . he wants a small remote control , or ? uh uh with big buttons . user interface: uh . industrial designer: i thought that it it should fit in the hand or something . marketing: yeah , a small c control that they can hold in hand . project manager: it 's difficult . user interface: yes . project manager: a sm industrial designer: marketing: but is something that 's seven centimetres square e easy to hold ? user interface: industrial designer: w i i think so . i if the roller buttons are on the side you do n't have to catch it like that , but just like this , and you know follow follow well , that 's that 's no task for me , but well seven to seven at least yeah , project manager: so maybe you can finish your presentation , user interface: project manager: and afterwards we will discuss about all this . industrial designer: but oh , okay . user interface: maybe this . marketing: okay . industrial designer: okay thanks . project manager: that 's it . okay . so . no . uh , so i think we have a lot we have to take decision today , so i think we have to do some work to finalise our idea and take decisions . uh first i think energy it 's a key problem because uh it depend what can we have as feature if we use only batteries , for example , or something like that . because can we have lcd and speech recognition with battery , and it 's also r related to the size of the of the devi of the device ? industrial designer: not j uh just a point to the energy th things . if we use the batteries , and the additional so solar cell , then it 's okay for l_ uh speech recognition and lcd , project manager: okay . industrial designer: so no problem in energy , i think . project manager: so okay . industrial designer: but we have to use the solar cell . user interface: so but project manager: uh like industrial designer: otherwise not . project manager: but using how many batteries , for example ? are are what maybe what is the size of the battery industrial designer: yeah i was thinking just common a_a_ cells . project manager: okay . uh one two industrial designer: so like three to five centimetres , project manager: okay . industrial designer: i dunno exactly , but . marketing: so if we use s solar cells , um where is the sun if someone 's watching tv inside ? industrial designer: s uh d does n't need to be sun . it it 's just the daylight , you know . marketing: okay . project manager: the television lights . industrial designer: yeah well i i suppose that i suppose that uh that this remote control wo n't be in the in the room like this , where there is light only when when there are people , but . user interface: marketing: project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: at least when there is tv you can get light from the tv . industrial designer: yeah from the t_ user interface: yeah . industrial designer: i do n't think it 's enough , uh . project manager: i dunno . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . mm . industrial designer: ah it 's a it 's a compromise , no ? marketing: project manager: at least it 's new and maybe technology new technology . industrial designer: yeah , that 's why i wanted to to include the speech recognition , because you wanted all the new things . marketing: it 's it 's quite innovative , yes . project manager: yeah . user interface: hmm . project manager: um . marketing: and if you watch tv outside it 's very useful . user interface: project manager: so i think before talking about the other thing , it 's important thing it 's the case . industrial designer: project manager: uh what what are gon na be the size , because its weight drives the other what we are going to use as features and so on . for example for the for the lcd , if we choose to have a small device , we can not use this um a such a a a screen . industrial designer: uh the s the screen is okay , but the board , uh that 's the problem . well what what would you guess as a shape ? or what what would be the shape ? user interface: mm . i think i think their being uh large or small is not important . the only important thing is to be able to take it in uh inside hand easily . so let 's say an average size , okay , industrial designer: mm . user interface: and it should not be very heavy also . and i prefer to is it should n't have a uniform shape , so in the middle it should be a little bit thinner , maybe maybe . so we c it 's like like some joysticks . you can take uh some some joystick you can take inside hand easier because it 's it 's designed for your f uh taking into account your finger shape and your palm shape . so the general shape should be like this . i think uh seven centimetre by seven centimetre is a little bit large . so uh seven not seven but let 's say five by ten it 's i think it 's that 's my opinion . it 's easier . industrial designer: okay . marketing: which is the same area . industrial designer: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: could you re could you redesign your board ? industrial designer: five to ten . well that marketing: oh , five five centimetres by ten centimetres . industrial designer: yeah , right . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , i think it 's feasib well one um um how could we do it ? we could put the board next to , well , under the lcd and for example make the lcd be totally unrelated to the thing that you hold in your hand . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like holding something , and the lcd to be just on top of it , you know somehow . well but maybe let 's stick to the s spongy thing , like one unit . project manager: oh . i 've i s i think the easiest thing would be to to have a smaller lcd , if it 's possible . industrial designer: well fi five to ten it would be feasible . user interface: mm . industrial designer: okay , so five to ten , i i think it 's it 's feasible . project manager: okay . so we are agree with a small industrial designer: i 'll make it . user interface: or uh or i do n't know project manager: lcd . industrial designer: fo five by ten . user interface: but i do n't want to now invent something new , because we did n't discuss about it . so using some lcds we can touch , so we can remove uh keys and just uh having uh , i dunno the name , lcd responding to fingers . project manager: yeah . user interface: touching the screen . something like project manager: tactile or something , yeah . user interface: mm like tactile . marketing: mm , touch screen . project manager: touch screen , yeah . user interface: so but for now if we do n't want to use such kind of screens i i think we using a a smaller screen is better , project manager: yeah . user interface: because project manager: the problem is we have a limit in a month of time , so we can not do something very new . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: project manager: so let 's go for a small lcd . marketing: so industrial designer: okay , so yeah , so so just just give me the the the five by ten numbers that you find the best and send it me user interface: a smaller s project manager: yeah okay . user interface: okay . project manager: so , five by s ten . industrial designer: and i will work it out . marketing: industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um so what about , so the case we talked about . um something easy to use , you said something easy to use but how does that fit in a fashion way , like with fruit and vegetable , and about the colour and logo of the of the company and so on , now , can we do that ? my first idea is because our colour is more yellow , and the it should be easy to take in a hand , i thought about banana , or something like that , which is fruits , and industrial designer: seven to ten banana . project manager: a big banana . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: okay . rather mango or something or . project manager: um . marketing: well it 's it 's definitely the obvious choice , with the colour of our company . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: marketing: i mean what other what other fruit and vegetables project manager: but it 's just an idea . i dunno what you think about , but marketing: do you know of any any other fruit and vegetables that are yellow ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: i dunno if it can fit with the technology . you are the specialists of that . industrial designer: you mean banana . project manager: industrial designer: well , but if it 's if it if the banana is big enough . project manager: so marketing: user interface: industrial designer: then , yes . but if you want to look at the screen , no . well user interface: project manager: yeah , and industrial designer: user interface: i think this is not good . project manager: the screen has to be square ? or it can be like a a shape , quite , uh with curves . industrial designer: well , it can be whatever you want . project manager: it could . industrial designer: but if it 's square then we get four screens out of one by cutting just . but if you want some shape then we can only get like two screens out of seven to seven inches , so . marketing: project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: it 's like more more expensive to have shape like that . but i do n't care . you know , if we fit this requirement . marketing: well i 'd like a shaped screen . i think that 's more important than saving a bit of money on on the t_f_t_ screen . project manager: okay industrial designer: okay project manager: okay . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah , m maybe the banana could be like a bit uh fatter than than the c c common one . project manager: yeah . yeah , it should remember banana , but it 's not does n't have to b to be uh uh really the size and exactly the shape of a banana . user interface: industrial designer: but user interface: industrial designer: like modified banana , okay . project manager: so we are agree with the banana thing ? industrial designer: well it we 'll stick to banana , or ? user interface: okay . marketing: yeah , banana 's good . project manager: okay . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . industrial designer: mm-mm . project manager: so , the last point we decided it 's infra-red , i guess . user interface: yeah , i think infra-red . project manager: everybody 's agreed . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . sure . project manager: uh , so that 's it i think about the concepts . you have other thing to add to this point , or uh no ? so , uh about the user interface , so we are going to use lcd . in the last meeting we talked about uh hidden buttons . i do n't know what we are going to do with that . you talked about the buttons on the side industrial designer: like like peeling of the banana you s user interface: yeah , peeling of the banana . project manager: mm what ? industrial designer: it would be cool , yeah . user interface: industrial designer: peeling of the banana , you know , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: should should discover the other buttons , which are hidden . user interface: yeah . marketing: user interface: mm . marketing: project manager: okay . and you mean the first layer would be spongy . user interface: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: first layer obviously spo yeah , project manager: so industrial designer: w it 's it 's like silly , but the people will really appreciate it , yeah i think . project manager: is it is it possible to do that ? it would be a great idea , but is it possible technically ? user interface: uh project manager: like doing a spongy layer of the banana , and you open it . marketing: i think if we if we have a spongy layer on the outside of the banana then it 's easy to make that , project manager: yeah . marketing: you know , to manipulate that to hav be a cover that you can pull off and user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah , some something like a plastic cover covering uh some interface , u_s_b_ interface as in the in uh digital camera . if you see it 's like peeling . you open a plastic cover and you see some u_s_b_ interfaces , some some interfaces for adaptor . so keys can be uh buttons can be covered like this , with a plastic cover and uh when uh and when you open this cover it 's like peeling a banana . so , something like this . project manager: yeah , but do you see that as a rigid thing , or like like a banana , something very soft , you can open like banana , or . industrial designer: well is it possible to make it soft ? user interface: yeah , yeah , yeah it 's a lic like a plastic cover , so . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so i think if it 's so then it 's cool ? project manager: so , i dunno what you think , bob , but it would be great for users i think , and very good for marketing . marketing: i think for sure . definitely . the softer the better . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: cool . user interface: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: honestly speaking , i can not imagine it , so far , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but it will be terrible . user interface: project manager: um . and setting buttons hidden in . industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm , other remarks , or something , or . something we did n't talk about yes yet , or . i think we are almost there . uh maybe , how can we , if we have a soft thing , like this , and to open it we have to attach it somewhere , i dunno how to do that technically , or . industrial designer: project manager: and how user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: pof . marketing: we could use velcro . project manager: yeah , maybe . marketing: or uh ma maybe a magnetic user interface: yes , yeah it 's a good idea . marketing: thing . project manager: ma magnetic oh . user interface: magnetic . mm . yeah or a yeah it can is it can be a plastic cover uh sticking to the to the all the stuff like uh with magnetic p uh magnetic uh magnetic uh materials in the border , so it 's it sticks like refrigerator door , completely . project manager: okay . user interface: and when you try to open it , it will be opened easily . so you you can be sure that it will not be open while you 're uh while while uh you are commonly using uh buttons on the banana . project manager: okay . and what would be the matter here of the first layer i mean ? mm . likes . soft plastic , or marketing: yeah , i imagine some sort of vinyl thing . project manager: yeah , yeah , yeah . marketing: in a in a sort of a with a suede sort of feel . maybe . industrial designer: well since since the since the things like the like the screen and um how to say that , solar cell has to be has to be like kept kept in the shape , we can not b uh so we need that the that the peeling uh i dunno but we should we should take care of these two two things . so , if if uh the solar cell wo n't be visible while the banana is closed , then the material must be able to put the light inside , you know . so that we can reach the energy out of it out of that . user interface: mm . marketing: mm . so you 're saying is it possible to have a solar cell and this removable cover and industrial designer: it is possible , but , well if it marketing: and a and a banana . industrial designer: i dunno . user interface: mm . industrial designer: i dunno how to how to do it if if t if to if it 's better to put the solar cell to the t to the peeling or outside it , or or inside . project manager: hmm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but then it must be some window there , you know . marketing: okay . user interface: mm . project manager: and something we forgot , maybe , uh about the speech recognition system , are we going to use it , or not ? marketing: user interface: yes , i think . i think so . marketing: i think it 's important . project manager: it i yeah , it seems feasible , and it would be something very great . marketing: i think one of our p priorities is tech technology . project manager: so we have the de design , the a good shape , new and so on , user interface: mm . marketing: and user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: and we have also the technology thing w will be . and even the easy to use thing , user interface: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so it will be perfect . user interface: mm . project manager: so we add also the speech recognition device . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . i agree . project manager: so , that great . we have decided everything . and think we are on a good way . so , um uh the next meeting will start in thirty minutes . um , so uh the the industrial manager uh will uh will work on the look and feel design . the user interface uh uh mana uh manager will work on the user interface device . and the the marketing expert will do the first project evaluation . marketing: okay . project manager: so , i hope you can do that in thirty minutes . marketing: user interface: project manager: and uh , yeah , i uh i think you should work together , s you uh hamed and peter , to work uh in a in a first prototype , and uh more about the shape and so on and how you can manage to put everything together . and um as usual you will receive some specific instructions on . so thank you all everybody , industrial designer: okay . project manager: and see you in thirty minutes . marketing: okay . industrial designer: okay . marketing: thank you .

the group members thought that the first layer would be spongy . it might be magnetic and would be like a plastic cover covering some buttons or usb interface . users could open this cover like peeling a banana .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from michelle brown and jack sargeant ; there are no substitutions . can i ask if members have any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . we 'll move on , then , to item 2 , which is our scrutiny of the 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' draft strategy , and i 'm very pleased to welcome dr frank atherton , the chief medical officer for wales , and nathan cook , who is the head of the healthy and active branch at welsh government . thank you , both , for attending this morning . we 're very much looking forward to hearing what you 've got to say . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions . if i can just start by asking about the fact that 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' is an all-age strategy , really , and how confident you are that it will deliver for children and young people . dr frank atherton: well , we 're very confident . i mean , it has to , quite clearly . we do need to think about the present generation , the problems faced by the current generation . we have high prevalence of overweight and obesity among adults—we know that , and we ca n't walk away from that because that 's translating into demand on health services . but we have to take a focus , a future generation 's focus , almost , on the next generation . i do n't write off the current generation , we ca n't afford to do that , but we do need to think about what can we do that would be different for the next generation so that they do n't get into the sorts of problems that we 're currently seeing with overweight and obesity . we know that the consequences of that for our young people are going to be enormous if we do n't do something and something quite soon . we know that overweight children go on to become overweight adults , unfortunately , and that brings all the consequences of multiple disease issues—diabetes is often cited—cancer risk et cetera . so , we have to focus on children , and , in fact , during the consultation , we 've been very clear that we need to engage with children and young people as well . perhaps we 'll get into that at some point , chair , but , yes , i can give you that assurance . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . what my follow-up question , really , is : can you just tell us what kind of engagement you 've had with children and young people to inform the draft strategy ? dr frank atherton: well , nathan may be able to influence some of the detail , but in broad terms , we have discussed with young people in a number of fora . in fact , i was delighted that we had a young person , evie morgan , a schoolgirl from mid wales , who came to the joint launch on the consultation . she met the minister there and gave a very good personal account of her views on obesity and overweight . we 've been visiting a number of schools during the consultation process . i 'm visiting a school , either this week or next week , at treorchy , to talk with teachers and young people there . obviously , we 're hopeful that schools and young people will contribute to the consultation as well . so , we 've had quite good input , i would say , from children and young people . there is always more we can do we and we want to hear those voices . nathan cook: i was going to say , we 've also had a session with youth ambassadors as well , and what we 've actually produced for the consultation is not just the children and young people 's version , but also a toolkit in terms of getting schools really engaged and involved in terms of the work that we want them to do to feed into this as well . so , we 've already had some really good responses from a lot of youth group and schools already . lynne neagle am: and you 've got a structured programme , have you , to roll that out ? okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on leadership , and the first questions are from siân gwenllian . sian gwenllian am: good morning . i 'll be speaking in welsh . the minister for health said yesterday , in answering a question from me on the chamber floor , that you gave him advice not to have a target in terms of reducing obesity among children . could you confirm that that 's what your advice was and tell us why you do n't think that a target is needed ? dr frank atherton: my advice was not that we do n't need a target—we may well need a target , and that 's one of the issues we need to consult on—but that the target that had been adopted in england and in scotland to halve the prevalence of obesity in children was more aspirational than deliverable , and that if we are to choose a target in wales , then we need to balance deliverability with challenge . we need a challenging environment . so , there is something about performance management , because i would be looking to not just the health system but the health and care system and to public services boards to think about how they 're delivering on this , and i think we can use targets to that . but they are one tool in the box that i would think we could use , and part of the consultation is to ask that question—'if we are to go down a route in wales of choosing a target , what might that look like ? ' sian gwenllian am: okay . so , to be clear , you 're not ruling out that maybe we would need a target . dr frank atherton: it 's certainly something that we could consider in terms of the final strategy . sian gwenllian am: and is that your opinion too ? nathan cook: yes . sian gwenllian am: okay . well , that is contrary to what i was told yesterday on the floor of the chamber by the minister , but there we go . i 'm glad to hear that you 're not ruling out having a target , because without a target , without something to aim for , how do we know that we 're getting there ? dr frank atherton: i think your point about evaluation is really important . whatever we produce at the end of this process—and we 're looking to produce a final strategy towards the autumn—we do need to have a strong evaluation . so , some metrics in there , it would seem , would be appropriate , but what those are , what the nature of those are , do we frame them as targets or ambitions—that 's the point we need to consult on . sian gwenllian am: okay . and the other point , of course , is the investment . if the government is going to be successful in terms of the aim of reducing childhood obesity , then it needs to fund and support the actions . have you made an assessment of the level of investment needed to implement this plan ? dr frank atherton: resourcing will be important . we currently do make investments in a number of areas that relate to child health generally , and , of course , obesity and overweight in particular . so , the question of resourcing is important . now , we ca n't quantify an absolute amount of resource that will be needed to deliver until we know exactly what 's going to come out of the consultation and what actions we might want to deliver to a greater degree in wales . a figure of £8 million to £10 million a year has been banded around as a broad kind of area of what we might need to invest , but that would need to be drawn from existing programmes . we need to look at existing programmes , how effective they are . can we make them more effective ? can we get better value from them ? and there may well be a case for new investment , and that 's a question , of course , that would need to be discussed with ministers when we 're producing the final strategy . nathan cook: but i think a key consideration as well is we already know there is investment across health boards in some kind of obesity-related services . so , i think what we really need to think about across wales is how we can drive greater scale , how we can look at current programmes in terms of making sure that they 're better evaluated , and how we can make sure that we 're also drawing up on the existing resources and capacity out there as well . sian gwenllian am: and does the level of investment depend on what the target is—what the goal is ? dr frank atherton: i do n't think you can necessarily just link the two . the issue of resourcing is one that 's there irrespective of whether we choose to put a target in place . sian gwenllian am: but how would we know that it 's being used effectively if there is n't something to aim for ? dr frank atherton: which brings you back to the question about evaluation . we need proper evaluation of the various programmes that we have . sian gwenllian am: yes , but without a target , how can you properly evaluate ? if you do n't know what you 're trying to do , how can you properly evaluate ? anyway , you 're open to suggestions about having a target , which is great . would you agree that government could use the revenue that 's being produced through the levy on soft drinks towards some of these efforts to— ? dr frank atherton: well , of course , there are some consequentials that are coming to the welsh government as part of the levy on sugary soft drinks . that funding , of course , is less than we had anticipated , and that reflects , actually , a success story because industry is reformulating , and so the amount of sugar in soft drinks is already starting to decrease , which is a good thing . but to your question : should we use the funding ? well , of course we should use funding . i 'm not personally in favour of hypothecation , i think i 'm more interested in the totality of resource that goes into public health programmes than into marginal resource . there are , of course , a number of initiatives that we currently fund through the general revenue . and when i think about obesity , i do n't just think about the relatively small marginal amounts of money that come in through whatever source , but i think about the totality of the £7 billion we spend in health and social care and how we can divert and channel some of that towards broad prevention initiatives in general , and towards tackling being overweight and obesity in particular . sian gwenllian am: you 're saying that it 's less than expected . could you give us any kind of figure ? dr frank atherton: i 'm sorry , could you repeat the question ? sian gwenllian am: you say that there is less money that 's come in through these consequentials from the levy , can you mention some sort of figure ? dr frank atherton: the figure that i have in mind is about £56 million that 's coming in in terms of revenue over a two-year period . but i 'd have to confirm that with the committee . what the anticipated— . when the sugar levy was first brought in , there was some modelling at uk level about what level of revenue that would bring , but it was based on the amount of sugar that was currently then in drinks and the fact that the sugar has reduced in drinks , i mean , the total amount available to the uk is less and hence our consequentials are less . nathan may have some precise figures . nathan cook: yes , i was going to say , there was a mid-year report done where the levy has raised £150 million to date since coming into force in april , and the original forecast was £520 million a year . so , i think that shows the amount of work that 's been done by industry around reformulation . sian gwenllian am: and the consequentials of that ? that is the consequential—£150 million . nathan cook: on a uk level . sian gwenllian am: yes , so what 's the welsh consequential ? lynne neagle am: fifty-six . sian gwenllian am: fifty-six ? gosh , that sounds a lot . anyway , it 's a good sum of money and you 're talking about investing £8 million to £10 million . so , obviously , you know , we can be more ambitious because there is money in that pot if that money was ring-fenced for this particular scheme . dr frank atherton: well , the resource is going to be a real issue that we need to address , and i think as nathan has said , there is funding of various initiatives currently in the system , and we need to look at that and make that as effective as possible . will there be a need for some additional resource ? there may well be , and that 's a question that we 'll have to look at in terms of the strategy when we develop it and have a discussion with ministers about the level of resourcing . lynne neagle am: can i just ask on that before siân moves on ? what assessment have you made of how that money is being spent in other uk nations ? because my understanding is that the money is being used in other uk nations to directly impact on obesity . have you given any consideration to— ? as i understand it , that money now is being dispersed around a plethora of programmes , including the transformation programme , and what i found very odd , really , was vaccination , which is surely the core business of the nhs . have you got any view on that ? dr frank atherton: i 'm not sure i understand your point , chair , in terms of the link between the consequentials from— . are you talking about the consequentials from the sugar levy or are you talking about— ? lynne neagle am: yes , because in other nations , it is being used to directly impact on initiatives to tackle obesity , whereas , we 've kind of put it here in wales into the general pot and it 's being used to fund a plethora of different things . dr frank atherton: well , that cuts to what i was talking about . my preference—it 's a personal view—is that hypothecation does n't really help us too much . i mean , what we need to look at is whether the programmes , the sorts of programmes that are being funded in england , or indeed in scotland , are working effectively , and if they are , are they being delivered here in wales ? we have looked very carefully at the plans that england and scotland have for tackling obesity and overweight , and we 've made a comparison with what we 're doing in wales , and our ambition in wales is to go further than those nations , in many ways . but i come back to the point that just linking the hypothecation of a relatively small amount of resource is likely to be less impactful than asking a question of public services boards and of the health system , indeed , about how much money , overall , are we putting into prevention . lynne neagle am: no , i recognise that , and i think we 're talking about additional resource . suzy . suzy davies am: i was just wondering whether you thought that there was a useful psychological link on the part of the public between saying , 'here 's a sugar levy ' , and 'it 's going to be used to help children and adults stay healthier . ' going into a pot , it actually makes it quite difficult to explain the purpose of the tax in the first place . so , i take your overall point , but in terms of the people who we 're trying to help in all this , actually creating a direct link might be quite helpful . dr frank atherton: you may be right . i 'm not a behavioural psychologist . we 'd have to ask— suzy davies am: neither am i. i 'm a person who eats a lot of sugar . [ laughter . ] dr frank atherton: your point 's taken . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: thanks . siân . sian gwenllian am: the last question from me , about partnership working . you 're putting an emphasis on the whole-system approach in implementing the plan , how are you going to create a system that co-ordinates action and drives change across relevant partners , avoiding a situation where it 's everyone 's role , but nobody 's responsibility ? how are you going to avoid that ? dr frank atherton: it 's a very important question , and one of the four strands in the consultation is exactly related to that , around leadership and drive nationally . i 'm not interested in producing a strategy that sits on a shelf . if you look around the world , there are plenty of obesity strategies . you may notice , by the way , that we 've chosen not to talk about an obesity strategy but a healthy weight strategy , because i think having a positive construct is really quite important to us here in wales . but leadership will be really important , and we will need some sort of structure to lead this , to provide oversight . i 'm not a great believer in creating new structures , so we do need something that will give that drive , but the leadership comes from the top down . we need political commitment to this , and that 's why i welcome the input from this committee . so , that needs to be assured . and then we need to make sure that the public sector generally is engaged in this , but it goes way beyond the public sector , of course , because we have to work with industry , and we have to work with communities , and we have to work with the public on this . so we need to think about our governance system for this and how we drive it forward . interestingly , we had quite a large discussion two days ago between health and social care , but also involving the third sector and some members of the public , around how can we drive prevention more generally . it was n't specifically on obesity , but of course obesity came up because it 's such a pressing issue . this question of governance was discussed quite extensively , and we do have governance systems , of course , in wales . we have public services boards , we have regional partnership boards , and how we can get those aligned behind this common agenda is really important . but i 'd like to see—and i know i 'm a public health professional , so i know that only maybe 10 per cent , 15 per cent , possibly 20 per cent of what makes and keeps us healthy as individuals and as communities can be driven through the health system ; but i would like the system to step up and take these kinds of issues more seriously as well . so i 'd be looking for local leadership through directors of public health and indeed through chief executives to work with their public services boards on this . so , we 'll need some sort of national oversight , absolutely , but we need local ownership and local leadership , too . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 've got some questions now from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . delivery of the plan will be led by a national implementation board that will be accountable to ministers . which minister do you believe it should be accountable to , or , given the complexity of obesity , should the board be directly accountable to the first minister ? dr frank atherton: ultimately , the first minister will be responsible for this and will want to have a strong oversight of this . it is often framed as a health issue , and the minister , vaughan gething , has a strong personal commitment to this , i know . we 've talked extensively with him and with sports and recreation colleagues about that , so there 's a link there . it does cut across all portfolios , and so this is an issue that i have discussed with cabinet , and that collective ownership is really important , and will be , because it ca n't just sit in one domain . i think what you do need to have is you do need to have a lead organisation or a lead ministry , and i would see health as—i work within health , so i 'm perhaps biased , but i would see health as leading this , but it needs broad ownership across government . janet finch-saunders am: i know my colleague siân gwenllian mentioned earlier targets and things , but i know in wales we 're not too good at collecting data . what data is currently available on childhood obesity and what metrics will be used to measure progress against the plan 's objectives ? dr frank atherton: well , of course , our main data source is the child measurement programme , which collects information on children entering school aged four or five . that 's our main source of information . if we look at that data , it shows us— . well , i 'm sure you 're familiar with the statistics , but it 'll be just under a third of children at that age who are overweight or obese— janet finch-saunders am: could i just ask—sorry to interrupt—how up to date is that ? dr frank atherton: the last survey was just last year . nathan cook: the data was published last week . dr frank atherton: yes , the lastest data was out last week . janet finch-saunders am: it is pretty up to date . dr frank atherton: so , it 's pretty up to date , and what it shows— . it 's not getting radically worse—there 's always statistical variation in these things—but it 's not getting any better . and , for the first time last year , we did look at the question not just of children who were overweight or obese , but we actually singled out the proportion who are obese , severely obese . so we have a figure for that for the first time , which is about 12 per cent , which is quite shocking , in a way . janet finch-saunders am: it is shocking . dr frank atherton: so , that 's our main source of information . does that answer your question ? janet finch-saunders am: yes , but how will any gaps in your data be addressed ? dr frank atherton: well , one of the questions that are often asked is : could we measure more on a longitudinal basis ? by that i mean in england , for example , children are measured at school entry and then again at year 11—at age 11 or 12. , that kind of age group . and so you do have a longitudinal view over time of what 's happening to children . i think that would be helpful to us in wales , and it 's one of the questions in the consultation about whether we should expand that . obviously , that would have significant resource implications , not just for the funding , but also for schools and for the system to deliver it . but it 's something that maybe would help us in terms of better understanding and better evaluation—the point that was made earlier . nathan cook: and the other data we do have is the millennium cohort study , which has been released , for 14 and 15-year-olds . that 's going to be— . we 're starting to think about how we can utilise some of that data , looking at that longitudinal picture around children as well , which will be really helpful . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . you 've answered my next question . thank you . lynne neagle am: can i just ask about the child measurement programme ? the strategy commits to looking at whether we can have a second measurement taking place in wales . can you just tell us a bit more about your thinking on that and when you would see a second measurement taking place and how you would use that data ? dr frank atherton: i touched on that just now , but personally i do think it would be helpful to have more information . it 's always the case , there 's always a trade-off between the cost of getting that information and the value of the information . so , the question of how it would be used would be really important . there is still a lot that we do n't know . we know an awful lot about obesity and being overweight and the causes of it , but we do n't really have a very clear understanding , in wales at least , of the point at which children start to become overweight . although we know that overweight children tend to go on to become overweight adults , we do n't know what proportion of them between school entry and later teenage years—what those changes are . so , it would help us to have some better understanding , which would help to direct some of our initiatives . i 'd be generally supportive of the principle . we 'll wait and see what comes out in the consultation , and it 's something that we need to give thought to , but we do have to trade off the additionality of what the information would give us with the cost of doing that , of course . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on healthy environments from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . in the draft plan , some of the measures in there suggest legislating for restricting price promotions and banning energy drinks , and that sort of thing . do you think that , if we go down that road , there 's going to be time within this assembly to introduce such legislation ? and , if not , what do you think might be the timescale for such legislation ? dr frank atherton: it may well be that there are things in wales that we might wish to legislate on , and you 've mentioned two of them , and they 're good examples . we would , obviously , need to undertake quite detailed consultation on those and , in a way , we need to mirror what 's happening in england and in scotland to some degree around the consultations they 're having on energy drinks . we also need to influence the issues that are not devolved to us and we seek to do that . as to your question of legislative time , i 'm not really in a position to answer that . what i could say is that legislation may well be one of the outcomes of the consultation . there may well be things that we wish to choose to legislate on . the timing of that will have to be subject to other pressures , and i come back to the point that legislation , of course , is one of the tools that we 've got—we need to deploy them all . dawn bowden am: sure , i understand that , that you could do other things . i know— . we 've heard from the government , on other calls for legislation , that the programme 's very tight , certainly for this term , so i was just wondering whether we might get that in , but okay . if i turn now to the planning system—and this might not be something that you have great deal of knowledge of ; i 'd just welcome your view on this , because , when we discussed with stakeholders , we talked about whether the planning system , for instance , could be used to , as an example , restrict hot food takeaways around schools and so on . would that be a measure that you would support , something like that ? dr frank atherton: i think it 's definitely something we want to look at and , of course , that question is asked in the consultation , so we would like to know people 's views on that . it 's an interesting one . i think there is a question—a really important question—about how we can use the planning system more effectively . i 've discussed with nathan on a number of occasions , with planning colleagues in welsh government and in local authorities , about the art of the possible , let 's say . there may be things that we could think about and we want to get those ideas through the consultation . the specific question around takeaways , particularly takeaways near schools , is often asked . i was very interested to see , up in the north-east , some time ago , that one of the local authorities up there did put a moratorium on the opening of new fast-food venues near to schools , or indeed in areas where levels of obesity and overweight were particularly high . i understand london is now—some london boroughs are now—experimenting with that as well . so , that gave me comfort , because maybe there are powers within local authorities that can be used more effectively . i think my view at the moment is that the jury 's kind of out on whether those are effective and how effective they 're going to be . but the fact that we have some initiatives around the uk does give us an opportunity to study that and to learn from experience perhaps and then , if it is shown to be beneficial , to think about that here in wales , yes . dawn bowden am: sure , because it will only be one of a suite of measures anyway . of itself , it would n't address the problem , but , added to other initiatives , i guess it would . can i just ask you briefly , then , about community sport infrastructure and , in particular , of new schools ? so , welsh government , as you know , has ploughed a huge amount of money into the twenty-first century schools programme . what we heard when we spoke to stakeholders recently , particularly headteachers , was that , in some of the new schools that have been built , we have n't had changing rooms and toilet facilities , for instance , built into the new buildings . so , if we 're going to try and utilise these buildings for general community activity to get kids and the wider public , actually , more active , do you think that 's something that we ought to be building in ? again , not your particular direct area of responsibility , but something that you might have an input into , is that , when we 're developing schools , we should be making sure that they have those kinds of facilities so that they become accessible to the wider public . is that something that you would be prepared to make a recommendation around ? dr frank atherton: well , it 's certainly a fascinating area and one that i think has a lot of potential . it goes— . you 're right to raise it in the context of schools , and i can understand why this committee would , but i think it goes beyond that , actually , into all developments in the public sector and how they 're developed and whether we 're building health into our environment , which perhaps is your starting point . one of the things that i was really pleased to see in terms of the public health ( wales ) act 2017 that was passed a couple of years ago was the use of health impact assessment as a tool , and we 're still working on how that will inform policy and how that will be applied in issues such as policy decisions through government , but also in more downstream issues about how we create the public infrastructure that the public can and should be using . and so i would like to see the use of health impact assessments to a much greater degree to inform those kinds of decisions . if you apply that kind of lens and you take the point , which is inherent in your question , i think , that schools are not just for kids , they 're for communities , then you would—it would lead you to a conclusion that you would perhaps design and build them in a different way . so , on a personal basis , i would certainly support your view that we should be looking to use the sports environment in schools in the same way as we use leisure centres . there are all kinds of barriers in there , and i understand all of that , and it 's not really my field , exactly as you say , but , as a matter of principle , i think it 's a good one to pursue . dawn bowden am: okay . thank you . and widening it out to other public services buildings as well . dr frank atherton: indeed . dawn bowden am: yes . okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 're going to move on now to talk about how we create healthy settings . i 've got some questions from suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you very much . yes , perhaps if we could just stay in this area of education just for a moment , i think we all agree that healthy habits acquired early on probably tend to last quite well , so i wonder if you can tell us a little bit about the healthy and sustainable preschool scheme and whether you think some timescales should be made public about what you expect the achievements from that scheme to be . but , in particular , i was struck with what you said about local leadership , and i just want you to bear that in mind in answering the next question , which is about the foundation phase . you 're probably aware that this committee has heard from various school leaders that they 're struggling in some cases to meet the ratio of staffing for the foundation phase , which potentially compromises the purpose of it in terms of physical activity . i 'm just wondering how the strategy development board is considering that at the moment . is it something that 's come on the radar for the board ? is it something you 're thinking about ? and , if so , who do you think should be responsible for pinning that down a little bit ? because this is education , not health , and— . dr frank atherton: well , look , i 've got to confess to you , i 'm not an educationist , and so the question on staffing numbers in schools is not one that i have been asked to give a deal of consideration to , and it has n't really been discussed , i do n't believe , in the context of development of the strategy . if there is a specific point around that that the committee would like to make in terms of a response into the consultation , which i presume you 'll be making , then we 'd be happy to consider that . as to healthy preschools , i do n't know , nathan may have some view on that . i 've not been closely involved with the work . we have standards and we perhaps need to think about how we tighten those standards and how we—enforce is n't the right word , but how we implement and make sure that those standards are properly implemented , because you 're absolutely right to say that habits are developed early in life . that 's in the preschool ; it 's also in the home of course , and then later in the school . so , we do need to look at all of those as settings and are there more things we can do within those settings to drive healthier behaviours—that 's exactly why we need the consultation . nathan cook: but i would say , through that scheme as well , we 've really got a really good bank of preschools that are actually doing some really great work in this area as well . so , i think the more we can understand the successes that some of those environments are having—you know , how we can roll those out and work across other settings to create that wider impact as well is going to be really important . suzy davies am: okay . thank you . what i 'm thinking about is expectations at that level will be expectations at a slightly older level , which will be contained within the foundation phase . and while you 're quite right—obviously , parents have a role in this , or families—there will be , particularly with the introduction of the new curriculum , certain expectations on schools to provide not just healthy environments but to actively work towards well-being and healthy weight in children and things . and that 's why i asked you about local leadership , because , if it fails for reasons that have nothing to do with the plan at foundation phase , it 's going to fail further up the school years as well . i think it might be something that the board might want to consider here , because at some point there 'll be an accountability question and we will want to know how 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' fits in with the new plans for the new curriculum , and whether it 's merely persuasive and influential or whether it has the weight to place some obligations on school leaders about what they do in their schools . so , this connection , i think , is quite an important one , and , if the strategy development board could consider that , i think it would be very helpful , because this does n't exist in a vacuum . dr frank atherton: well , i 'd certainly be delighted to take that back and we can look at it in terms of how we move from the consultation into the final strategy . it 's certainly a point we can try and look at . suzy davies am: because we will want to know who to ask : 'you 're the accountable person—why has something worked , or not worked ? ' we will need to know that at some point . dr frank atherton: just building on nathan 's point , some of the schools—i know it 's schools rather than the preschools , and i take your point , but some of the schools we 've been working with have absolutely brilliant models of good practice and good local leadership . i remember the minister actually at the launch , and one of the schools was represented there , and they presented—the school came and some of the children came and presented—to the whole audience about the activities that they were undertaking in their school around physical activity and on healthy eating , and it was such a model of good behaviour the question was , 'well , why not everywhere ? ' , so that probably speaks to your question . suzy davies am: okay , well , thank you for that commitment anyway . lynne neagle am: and have you had any discussions , then , with education officials around things like teacher training and cpd , because you 'll be aware the health and social care committee has made a number of recommendations in this area ? it 's crucial that we skill up the staff to develop these things in an appropriate way , is n't it ? dr frank atherton: well , we certainly discuss with education colleagues in welsh government . there 's more we need to do in terms of that , because you 're absolutely right : there 's something about building the whole of the workforce—education is really important , but elsewhere as well ; it 's about how do we really make every contact count , you know , that construct . so , everybody who 's working in the health and social care system should have a role in this ; everybody who works in education , whether it 's the old— . do we still have dinner ladies ? or teachers , you know , they have a role to play in supporting children to be as healthy as they possibly can . and , actually , i see them , chair , as a really essential part of the public health workforce . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . suzy , are you going to do your curriculum one ? suzy davies am: well , i 've bound it in together , but that final point you make about teachers being part of the answer to this , they 're already under a range of pressures : is it fair to make them accountable for whether this works or not ? or should that local leadership lie somewhere else ? i do n't expect you to pin down a person today . dr frank atherton: i would n't like to blame a teacher or performance manage them on the proportion of their children in their class who are overweight . that would clearly be nonsense , would n't it ? but they are part of the solution , and so the accountability lies further up the chain , does n't it ? the question i think we would have , and public services boards might well ask , and the local education authorities may well ask , is : how effective is any particular school at driving forwards these healthy behaviours ? suzy davies am: okay , thank you . i 'll leave some questions for hefin . lynne neagle am: hefin . hefin david am: is that all right , chair ? lynne neagle am: you 've got the floor , hefin . hefin david am: thank you , chair . you make a commitment to embedding physical activity at an early stage in primary school education . what would that look like ? dr frank atherton: just in terms of the physical activity , i have to say it 's a really important dimension and we need to move further on . we know not enough of our children are physically active and they 're not meeting the various guidelines , so it 's really important . it does n't actually have as much of an impact on weight as the dietary issue . i 'd just say that . it 's really important for all sorts of reasons . it does have an impact on healthy weight , but it has a huge impact in terms of socialisation , in terms of mental health issues , et cetera , you know . so—i 'm sorry , i 've lost track of your question . nathan cook: i 'd just say that one thing we have got in train is , obviously , sport wales , public health wales and natural resources wales—we have them working together as a collaborative at the moment to look at how their joint delivery on physical activity can be taken forward more efficiently . so , one of the things they are looking at is obviously the schools programmes they do through eco-schools , the welsh network of healthy schools and the sports programme to really think about that physical activity and how we can have better join up in terms of the programmes that we 're already delivering as well . hefin david am: with that in mind , i 'm going to confess to you , chief medical officer , i did anything in school i could to avoid physical education lessons . i hated it . i did n't feel engaged with it . yet , two weeks ago , i played for the assembly rugby team—i wanted to get that in . the school sports survey , that would suggest that we 're still not hitting those targets with children . how can we get children more engaged with physical education in ways that— ? i felt completely alienated in school . dr frank atherton: well , you 're right , and many people go through that same journey and come to physical activity later in life , and that 's great if they do that . the sad reality is that many people do n't , and we also know that there are issues around the dropping off , particularly for girls , of physical activity towards the teenage years . so , there are specific moments that we need to understand . we do have a lot of information about these kinds of things . public health wales is very good at collating the information . we do need to turn that into programmes . i mean , at the heart of it , it 's about making sports and physical activity enjoyable and attractive to people . sometimes that 's easier , i sense , for boys than for girls , but we need to tailor things to different audiences . hefin david am: yes , that 's the trick , is n't it ? it 's about finding out what children enjoy doing . that could be quite a wide and varied range of things . is that the key ? dawn bowden am: it 's not all about organised team sports . hefin david am: yes . as dawn said , it 's not just about organised team sports . there are some very individual activities you could do . dr frank atherton: absolutely , yes . and that 's where i think— . i 'm delighted that sport wales has moved beyond . it 's not just about elite sports ; it 's about getting everybody engaged and active in sports , and that partnership with public health wales that nathan talked about is really important , because we need a population approach to driving physical activity . hefin david am: so , do you think , with that in mind , we need statutory guidance for schools on physical education ? dr frank atherton: again , i 'd look to the consultation as to whether there was an appetite for any kind of guidance . it may well be that that is something that could be considered . hefin david am: okay . and finally , with regard to free school meals to all pupils in primary and secondary schools , do you think that extending that to all pupils would be beneficial in providing a more varied diet for pupils ? dr frank atherton: i do n't have a personal view on that . i think it 's the quality of the food that kids are getting , whether that comes from home or through school , and whether it 's free or whether it 's paid for . i think it 's the quality of the food that we need to focus on . the question of children being hungry at school is a really important one and needs to be addressed at a national level . i think that 's a— hefin david am: so , you think that 's more about the provision of food for those who might not have access to it than providing a varied diet . dr frank atherton: i think it 's important that children have access to food , absolutely , if that 's your question , but we also need to look at the quality of the food and what 's in that food offer . hefin david am: but you do n't necessarily think universal provision would— . dr frank atherton: i do n't have a clear view on that . i know there 's a larger debate about that . hefin david am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: i 've got some supplementaries from janet and then suzy . janet finch-saunders am: yes . i 've been around some amazing schools in my own constituency , where they 've got proper canteen facilities for pupils and really , really good produce in the meals . however , there 's probably only a third having school meals ; the rest are packed lunches . and , to be honest , i 've been very surprised and shocked at what i 've seen of the quality of the food in the packed lunches . nobody can really police , and i would n't want to see parents being policed over what goes in a packed lunch , so if there is data out there to suggest that there 's a larger percentage of parents providing packed lunched that are really not good at all , then there is some merit to be said for what hefin is— . me , personally , i 'd love to see the introduction of universal school meals . i think it 's been a very retrograde step , going backwards . would you be willing to carry out any research ? dr frank atherton: so , i mean , your point about food that 's brought in in the packed lunches is a really important one , and i 've talked to some headteachers as well about this . we could go down a route of guidance and prohibition , but that gets you into the role of nanny in chief and i do n't really see that as my role or government 's role , and i do n't think it 's effective either . do you remember— ? you must have seen on tv—i think it was in scotland ; i do n't know if it 's happened in wales—parents pushing the fish and chip packets through the school railings . we do n't need to get into that . what i have seen , though , is some really good innovative practice in schools where , for example , they reward children for bringing the healthy options . schools can give guidance to parents about what would be a healthy lunch and what sort of things might be expected to be seen in the lunch box . and you can reward children , and children do respond to rewards . so , i 've seen some of those approaches that have transformed , actually , the offer of what comes in school boxes . but i think just banning chocolate bars and crisps in the packed lunch is unlikely to be successful . janet finch-saunders am: we ca n't do that . so , my point to the question was : is n't there some merit , perhaps , about all children being equal and eating similar good-quality food in schools ? dr frank atherton: yes . that gets you back to the question about universal school meals . janet finch-saunders am: perhaps some of that £56 million sugar tax , even . who knows ? lynne neagle am: suzy . suzy davies am: yes . mine is just a short question . the draft plan commits , does n't it , to updating the healthy eating in schools regulations—the 2013 regulations ? i appreciate this is a consultation , but what is it that needs changing in those regulations at the moment , just to give us a bit of steer ? nathan cook: it 's mainly on sugar content , so , obviously , they do n't adhere to current scientific advisory committee on nutrition guidelines around sugar levels . so , what we 'd want to consider is , you know , what we need to be careful of is unintended consequences of changing that , as well , if you see a shift to more kids bringing in school packed lunches as well . so , i think we want to consider the best way of doing that and consider through the consultation how we can go about it . suzy davies am: all right . so , it 's very pertinent to janet 's question , in that way . okay , so it 's mainly about sugar , but it could be about other things as well . okay . thanks . lynne neagle am: okay . the next questions are from janet anyway ; firstly , on the clinical obesity pathway . janet finch-saunders am: the 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' plan commits to a review of the clinical obesity pathway . what are the time frames for this review , and what do you think are the basic essentials of a clinical obesity pathway for children and young people ? dr frank atherton: we do have a pathway for managing overweight , and that 's been in place since about 2010 , i believe , and we do need to bring that up to date in terms of current knowledge and experiences . we 've challenged public health wales ; we 've asked public health wales to undertake a review of that pathway , and they are going through that process now . i 'm not sure of exactly the time frame that we have given them for that . nathan cook: we were asking them to review the pathway before we launch the final strategy in october because , obviously , what we want is for that to inform what that final strategy looks like . so , we 'll be looking probably early autumn for them to report back on that . dr frank atherton: the second point of your question about what are the essential elements , i mean , they are already there ; we need to tweak them and we need to make sure that they 're properly delivered . but it 's a tiered approach , so , having access to information through schools and through communities and into families is part of the first step of that . and then , if children are overweight , it 's a question about how they 're identified . there are questions about the ability of the public to recognise large children , so there may be an issue there . but when children are running into issues around weight , what kind of interventions can be put in , either through primary care or through communities through health visitors , et cetera ? and then of course we do have—and we 've started to shine a light on this , have n't we—the very overweight children . i do n't think we have enough in the way of targeted support to be able to support those . there are programmes available , but they 're perhaps not universally provided . so , i think there 's something about looking at our whole pathway , mapping out what the current evidence now shows us is needed , and then thinking about what is our provision in wales and what do we need to do to bring that up to the level of the places that are the best . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . the draft plan recognises the importance of the first 1,000 days , but it does n't appear to include any new proposals to help parents to enable lifestyle changes . it lists existing initiatives , such as the healthy child wales programme and breastfeeding action plan . are you satisfied that the draft plan does enough to address the influence that family and parents have on children 's healthy weight behaviours , particularly in the first 1,000 days ? dr frank atherton: well , the first 1,000 days are really critically in shaping lives , as i 'm sure you 'd agree . we are absolutely open to any other suggestions that the public or this committee have as to what more we can and should do . there are a number of things , the sorts of programmes you 've mentioned , that i think could be more effective . we 're currently looking at breastfeeding because it starts before birth , actually . we know that children who are breastfed are less likely to suffer from obesity in childhood and , indeed , to go on to be obese adults . so , we do need to go further on that . we do have some programmes—healthy working wales , et cetera—that need to be improved . if there are other interventions in other areas that we need to take , then we 'd be delighted to hear what they are , but those are the ones that have jumped out so far . nathan cook: can i just say— ? one of the proposals we 're looking for is , obviously , we know that during pregnancy it 's a really critical time when we can actually look to work with mothers . we know from looking at some of the behaviour change that it 's actually a really critical point when new mothers really start thinking about their lives , wanting the best for their child and their families . so , what we are thinking about is how we could develop some kind of approaches to that going forward . but we know our healthy start scheme is also a good lever for us , just in terms of how we can look to improve that kind of dietary offer at the earliest stage as well . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . finally , we know that for some families day-to-day challenges can make it difficult for them to make healthy choices , particularly for those on lower incomes and/or maybe using food banks . could the welsh government take bolder action to better support low-income families to eat healthily ? dr frank atherton: well , you 've touched on a really important point about inequalities because overweight and obesity is not evenly distributed across our population . it absolutely is more prevalent in more socioeconomically deprived communities , and that 's something that should really concern us all . so , it gets you to questions of availability of fresh food and produce ; it gets you to questions of formulation of products and whether value brands are less healthy than more premium brands . so , it cuts across all of those issues that we talked about in terms of settings and in terms of environment earlier . there is something about the affordability of good-quality healthy food that we need to think about . we do need to think in broad terms—broader terms than just obesity , but we do need to think in broad terms—about how we create a society where families have the wherewithal to lead healthy lives , and that gets you to really important questions about the minimum wage and income poverty . there 's no doubt in my mind—i 'm a public health professional—and there 's no doubt in my mind that economic success and health success go hand in hand . so , you speak to a very deep question there . in terms of what we can do through this particular consultation , there are some things in there about providing better access , but without tackling some of those deeper determinants of health , their impact will necessarily be limited . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: just finally from me , then , you referred earlier to the importance of making every contact count , but some stakeholders have told the committee that they struggle to do that because of difficulties in availability of people to refer to . is that a situation that you recognise and what , really , can we do to improve that situation ? dr frank atherton: well , it depends what you mean as to where to refer to . so , the health system obviously needs to respond to this issue . what we 're seeing across the nhs is a gradual transformation in primary care so that primary care is no longer about going to see your gp , it 's about going to see a practice where you have a range of health professionals . would i like to see more dietetic support , for example , in that setting ? absolutely i would . i think we need to think in terms of that pathway that we were talking about earlier , about access to that kind of advice and support , which can head off people getting into problems and kids getting into problems with weight issues . so , that question of redesign of the pathway really speaks to , i think , your point about , 'well , where do people go when they have problems with their weight ? ' that 's true for adults and it 's true for children as well . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . are there any other questions from members ? no . okay . well , can i thank you both very much for your attendance ? it 's been a really productive session . we appreciate your time . you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy in due course , but thank you again . dr frank atherton: we 'll do that . thank you , chair , and thank you to the committee , because getting some input into the consultation from children 's perspectives , this would be one of the routes we would absolutely welcome . thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much . item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the welsh health specialised services committee on camhs tier 4 provision . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for health and social services also on camhs in-patient provision . paper to note 3 is a letter from the children commissioner for wales on tier 4 camhs provision . paper to note 4 is a letter from qualifications wales to the minister for education on qualifications for the new curriculum . paper to note 5 is a letter from me to the minister for education on the development of the new curriculum . paper to note 6 is a letter from me to the minister for education seeking clarification on the draft additional learning needs code . paper to note 7 is a letter from me to the minister for education seeking clarification on the response to our brexit report . paper to note 8 is a letter from the equality and human rights commission on a cumulative impact assessment briefing for committee , which has been offered . paper to note 9 is a letter from the chair of the petitions committee on a national taskforce for children ’ s mental health . paper to note 10 is a letter to the secretary of state for exiting the european union from the children ’ s commissioners for england , scotland , wales and northern ireland on the implications of brexit for children . there are a few that i 'd like to return to in private , but are members happy to note those ? thank you . okay . item 4 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? suzy davies am: yes . there 's somebody up there . lynne neagle am: thank you .

the meeting with dr frank atherton , the chief medical officer for wales , and nathan cook , who is the head of the healthy and active branch at welsh government , was mainly about the 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' draft strategy in wales and subsequent questions about it . to start with , sian gwenllian am proposed questions like the strategy 's evaluation , investment and principal . dr frank atherton , at the same time , indicated that there was a n exact evaluation and the nation has already imposed tax on sugar and the first minister will definitely be the ultimate man at the wheel . then they paid much attention to existing data measuring child obesity and decided to put it in great use in tackling obesity . meanwhile , the meeting talked about government legislation for some sort of things like restricting price promotions and banning energy drinks , and sports infrastructure in schools as part of efforts to make a healthy environment . what 's more , they went into details on how healthy settings constructions and whom that would be the one to take responsibility . also , they had a discussion on physical education and school meals for pupils . finally , the meeting participants gave some supplements of education and the draft strategy and the chair concluded the meeting with the future universality of the draft strategy .

summarize the discussion about evaluation , investment and responsibility of the draft strategy . </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from michelle brown and jack sargeant ; there are no substitutions . can i ask if members have any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . we 'll move on , then , to item 2 , which is our scrutiny of the 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' draft strategy , and i 'm very pleased to welcome dr frank atherton , the chief medical officer for wales , and nathan cook , who is the head of the healthy and active branch at welsh government . thank you , both , for attending this morning . we 're very much looking forward to hearing what you 've got to say . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions . if i can just start by asking about the fact that 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' is an all-age strategy , really , and how confident you are that it will deliver for children and young people . dr frank atherton: well , we 're very confident . i mean , it has to , quite clearly . we do need to think about the present generation , the problems faced by the current generation . we have high prevalence of overweight and obesity among adults—we know that , and we ca n't walk away from that because that 's translating into demand on health services . but we have to take a focus , a future generation 's focus , almost , on the next generation . i do n't write off the current generation , we ca n't afford to do that , but we do need to think about what can we do that would be different for the next generation so that they do n't get into the sorts of problems that we 're currently seeing with overweight and obesity . we know that the consequences of that for our young people are going to be enormous if we do n't do something and something quite soon . we know that overweight children go on to become overweight adults , unfortunately , and that brings all the consequences of multiple disease issues—diabetes is often cited—cancer risk et cetera . so , we have to focus on children , and , in fact , during the consultation , we 've been very clear that we need to engage with children and young people as well . perhaps we 'll get into that at some point , chair , but , yes , i can give you that assurance . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . what my follow-up question , really , is : can you just tell us what kind of engagement you 've had with children and young people to inform the draft strategy ? dr frank atherton: well , nathan may be able to influence some of the detail , but in broad terms , we have discussed with young people in a number of fora . in fact , i was delighted that we had a young person , evie morgan , a schoolgirl from mid wales , who came to the joint launch on the consultation . she met the minister there and gave a very good personal account of her views on obesity and overweight . we 've been visiting a number of schools during the consultation process . i 'm visiting a school , either this week or next week , at treorchy , to talk with teachers and young people there . obviously , we 're hopeful that schools and young people will contribute to the consultation as well . so , we 've had quite good input , i would say , from children and young people . there is always more we can do we and we want to hear those voices . nathan cook: i was going to say , we 've also had a session with youth ambassadors as well , and what we 've actually produced for the consultation is not just the children and young people 's version , but also a toolkit in terms of getting schools really engaged and involved in terms of the work that we want them to do to feed into this as well . so , we 've already had some really good responses from a lot of youth group and schools already . lynne neagle am: and you 've got a structured programme , have you , to roll that out ? okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on leadership , and the first questions are from siân gwenllian . sian gwenllian am: good morning . i 'll be speaking in welsh . the minister for health said yesterday , in answering a question from me on the chamber floor , that you gave him advice not to have a target in terms of reducing obesity among children . could you confirm that that 's what your advice was and tell us why you do n't think that a target is needed ? dr frank atherton: my advice was not that we do n't need a target—we may well need a target , and that 's one of the issues we need to consult on—but that the target that had been adopted in england and in scotland to halve the prevalence of obesity in children was more aspirational than deliverable , and that if we are to choose a target in wales , then we need to balance deliverability with challenge . we need a challenging environment . so , there is something about performance management , because i would be looking to not just the health system but the health and care system and to public services boards to think about how they 're delivering on this , and i think we can use targets to that . but they are one tool in the box that i would think we could use , and part of the consultation is to ask that question—'if we are to go down a route in wales of choosing a target , what might that look like ? ' sian gwenllian am: okay . so , to be clear , you 're not ruling out that maybe we would need a target . dr frank atherton: it 's certainly something that we could consider in terms of the final strategy . sian gwenllian am: and is that your opinion too ? nathan cook: yes . sian gwenllian am: okay . well , that is contrary to what i was told yesterday on the floor of the chamber by the minister , but there we go . i 'm glad to hear that you 're not ruling out having a target , because without a target , without something to aim for , how do we know that we 're getting there ? dr frank atherton: i think your point about evaluation is really important . whatever we produce at the end of this process—and we 're looking to produce a final strategy towards the autumn—we do need to have a strong evaluation . so , some metrics in there , it would seem , would be appropriate , but what those are , what the nature of those are , do we frame them as targets or ambitions—that 's the point we need to consult on . sian gwenllian am: okay . and the other point , of course , is the investment . if the government is going to be successful in terms of the aim of reducing childhood obesity , then it needs to fund and support the actions . have you made an assessment of the level of investment needed to implement this plan ? dr frank atherton: resourcing will be important . we currently do make investments in a number of areas that relate to child health generally , and , of course , obesity and overweight in particular . so , the question of resourcing is important . now , we ca n't quantify an absolute amount of resource that will be needed to deliver until we know exactly what 's going to come out of the consultation and what actions we might want to deliver to a greater degree in wales . a figure of £8 million to £10 million a year has been banded around as a broad kind of area of what we might need to invest , but that would need to be drawn from existing programmes . we need to look at existing programmes , how effective they are . can we make them more effective ? can we get better value from them ? and there may well be a case for new investment , and that 's a question , of course , that would need to be discussed with ministers when we 're producing the final strategy . nathan cook: but i think a key consideration as well is we already know there is investment across health boards in some kind of obesity-related services . so , i think what we really need to think about across wales is how we can drive greater scale , how we can look at current programmes in terms of making sure that they 're better evaluated , and how we can make sure that we 're also drawing up on the existing resources and capacity out there as well . sian gwenllian am: and does the level of investment depend on what the target is—what the goal is ? dr frank atherton: i do n't think you can necessarily just link the two . the issue of resourcing is one that 's there irrespective of whether we choose to put a target in place . sian gwenllian am: but how would we know that it 's being used effectively if there is n't something to aim for ? dr frank atherton: which brings you back to the question about evaluation . we need proper evaluation of the various programmes that we have . sian gwenllian am: yes , but without a target , how can you properly evaluate ? if you do n't know what you 're trying to do , how can you properly evaluate ? anyway , you 're open to suggestions about having a target , which is great . would you agree that government could use the revenue that 's being produced through the levy on soft drinks towards some of these efforts to— ? dr frank atherton: well , of course , there are some consequentials that are coming to the welsh government as part of the levy on sugary soft drinks . that funding , of course , is less than we had anticipated , and that reflects , actually , a success story because industry is reformulating , and so the amount of sugar in soft drinks is already starting to decrease , which is a good thing . but to your question : should we use the funding ? well , of course we should use funding . i 'm not personally in favour of hypothecation , i think i 'm more interested in the totality of resource that goes into public health programmes than into marginal resource . there are , of course , a number of initiatives that we currently fund through the general revenue . and when i think about obesity , i do n't just think about the relatively small marginal amounts of money that come in through whatever source , but i think about the totality of the £7 billion we spend in health and social care and how we can divert and channel some of that towards broad prevention initiatives in general , and towards tackling being overweight and obesity in particular . sian gwenllian am: you 're saying that it 's less than expected . could you give us any kind of figure ? dr frank atherton: i 'm sorry , could you repeat the question ? sian gwenllian am: you say that there is less money that 's come in through these consequentials from the levy , can you mention some sort of figure ? dr frank atherton: the figure that i have in mind is about £56 million that 's coming in in terms of revenue over a two-year period . but i 'd have to confirm that with the committee . what the anticipated— . when the sugar levy was first brought in , there was some modelling at uk level about what level of revenue that would bring , but it was based on the amount of sugar that was currently then in drinks and the fact that the sugar has reduced in drinks , i mean , the total amount available to the uk is less and hence our consequentials are less . nathan may have some precise figures . nathan cook: yes , i was going to say , there was a mid-year report done where the levy has raised £150 million to date since coming into force in april , and the original forecast was £520 million a year . so , i think that shows the amount of work that 's been done by industry around reformulation . sian gwenllian am: and the consequentials of that ? that is the consequential—£150 million . nathan cook: on a uk level . sian gwenllian am: yes , so what 's the welsh consequential ? lynne neagle am: fifty-six . sian gwenllian am: fifty-six ? gosh , that sounds a lot . anyway , it 's a good sum of money and you 're talking about investing £8 million to £10 million . so , obviously , you know , we can be more ambitious because there is money in that pot if that money was ring-fenced for this particular scheme . dr frank atherton: well , the resource is going to be a real issue that we need to address , and i think as nathan has said , there is funding of various initiatives currently in the system , and we need to look at that and make that as effective as possible . will there be a need for some additional resource ? there may well be , and that 's a question that we 'll have to look at in terms of the strategy when we develop it and have a discussion with ministers about the level of resourcing . lynne neagle am: can i just ask on that before siân moves on ? what assessment have you made of how that money is being spent in other uk nations ? because my understanding is that the money is being used in other uk nations to directly impact on obesity . have you given any consideration to— ? as i understand it , that money now is being dispersed around a plethora of programmes , including the transformation programme , and what i found very odd , really , was vaccination , which is surely the core business of the nhs . have you got any view on that ? dr frank atherton: i 'm not sure i understand your point , chair , in terms of the link between the consequentials from— . are you talking about the consequentials from the sugar levy or are you talking about— ? lynne neagle am: yes , because in other nations , it is being used to directly impact on initiatives to tackle obesity , whereas , we 've kind of put it here in wales into the general pot and it 's being used to fund a plethora of different things . dr frank atherton: well , that cuts to what i was talking about . my preference—it 's a personal view—is that hypothecation does n't really help us too much . i mean , what we need to look at is whether the programmes , the sorts of programmes that are being funded in england , or indeed in scotland , are working effectively , and if they are , are they being delivered here in wales ? we have looked very carefully at the plans that england and scotland have for tackling obesity and overweight , and we 've made a comparison with what we 're doing in wales , and our ambition in wales is to go further than those nations , in many ways . but i come back to the point that just linking the hypothecation of a relatively small amount of resource is likely to be less impactful than asking a question of public services boards and of the health system , indeed , about how much money , overall , are we putting into prevention . lynne neagle am: no , i recognise that , and i think we 're talking about additional resource . suzy . suzy davies am: i was just wondering whether you thought that there was a useful psychological link on the part of the public between saying , 'here 's a sugar levy ' , and 'it 's going to be used to help children and adults stay healthier . ' going into a pot , it actually makes it quite difficult to explain the purpose of the tax in the first place . so , i take your overall point , but in terms of the people who we 're trying to help in all this , actually creating a direct link might be quite helpful . dr frank atherton: you may be right . i 'm not a behavioural psychologist . we 'd have to ask— suzy davies am: neither am i. i 'm a person who eats a lot of sugar . [ laughter . ] dr frank atherton: your point 's taken . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: thanks . siân . sian gwenllian am: the last question from me , about partnership working . you 're putting an emphasis on the whole-system approach in implementing the plan , how are you going to create a system that co-ordinates action and drives change across relevant partners , avoiding a situation where it 's everyone 's role , but nobody 's responsibility ? how are you going to avoid that ? dr frank atherton: it 's a very important question , and one of the four strands in the consultation is exactly related to that , around leadership and drive nationally . i 'm not interested in producing a strategy that sits on a shelf . if you look around the world , there are plenty of obesity strategies . you may notice , by the way , that we 've chosen not to talk about an obesity strategy but a healthy weight strategy , because i think having a positive construct is really quite important to us here in wales . but leadership will be really important , and we will need some sort of structure to lead this , to provide oversight . i 'm not a great believer in creating new structures , so we do need something that will give that drive , but the leadership comes from the top down . we need political commitment to this , and that 's why i welcome the input from this committee . so , that needs to be assured . and then we need to make sure that the public sector generally is engaged in this , but it goes way beyond the public sector , of course , because we have to work with industry , and we have to work with communities , and we have to work with the public on this . so we need to think about our governance system for this and how we drive it forward . interestingly , we had quite a large discussion two days ago between health and social care , but also involving the third sector and some members of the public , around how can we drive prevention more generally . it was n't specifically on obesity , but of course obesity came up because it 's such a pressing issue . this question of governance was discussed quite extensively , and we do have governance systems , of course , in wales . we have public services boards , we have regional partnership boards , and how we can get those aligned behind this common agenda is really important . but i 'd like to see—and i know i 'm a public health professional , so i know that only maybe 10 per cent , 15 per cent , possibly 20 per cent of what makes and keeps us healthy as individuals and as communities can be driven through the health system ; but i would like the system to step up and take these kinds of issues more seriously as well . so i 'd be looking for local leadership through directors of public health and indeed through chief executives to work with their public services boards on this . so , we 'll need some sort of national oversight , absolutely , but we need local ownership and local leadership , too . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 've got some questions now from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . delivery of the plan will be led by a national implementation board that will be accountable to ministers . which minister do you believe it should be accountable to , or , given the complexity of obesity , should the board be directly accountable to the first minister ? dr frank atherton: ultimately , the first minister will be responsible for this and will want to have a strong oversight of this . it is often framed as a health issue , and the minister , vaughan gething , has a strong personal commitment to this , i know . we 've talked extensively with him and with sports and recreation colleagues about that , so there 's a link there . it does cut across all portfolios , and so this is an issue that i have discussed with cabinet , and that collective ownership is really important , and will be , because it ca n't just sit in one domain . i think what you do need to have is you do need to have a lead organisation or a lead ministry , and i would see health as—i work within health , so i 'm perhaps biased , but i would see health as leading this , but it needs broad ownership across government . janet finch-saunders am: i know my colleague siân gwenllian mentioned earlier targets and things , but i know in wales we 're not too good at collecting data . what data is currently available on childhood obesity and what metrics will be used to measure progress against the plan 's objectives ? dr frank atherton: well , of course , our main data source is the child measurement programme , which collects information on children entering school aged four or five . that 's our main source of information . if we look at that data , it shows us— . well , i 'm sure you 're familiar with the statistics , but it 'll be just under a third of children at that age who are overweight or obese— janet finch-saunders am: could i just ask—sorry to interrupt—how up to date is that ? dr frank atherton: the last survey was just last year . nathan cook: the data was published last week . dr frank atherton: yes , the lastest data was out last week . janet finch-saunders am: it is pretty up to date . dr frank atherton: so , it 's pretty up to date , and what it shows— . it 's not getting radically worse—there 's always statistical variation in these things—but it 's not getting any better . and , for the first time last year , we did look at the question not just of children who were overweight or obese , but we actually singled out the proportion who are obese , severely obese . so we have a figure for that for the first time , which is about 12 per cent , which is quite shocking , in a way . janet finch-saunders am: it is shocking . dr frank atherton: so , that 's our main source of information . does that answer your question ? janet finch-saunders am: yes , but how will any gaps in your data be addressed ? dr frank atherton: well , one of the questions that are often asked is : could we measure more on a longitudinal basis ? by that i mean in england , for example , children are measured at school entry and then again at year 11—at age 11 or 12. , that kind of age group . and so you do have a longitudinal view over time of what 's happening to children . i think that would be helpful to us in wales , and it 's one of the questions in the consultation about whether we should expand that . obviously , that would have significant resource implications , not just for the funding , but also for schools and for the system to deliver it . but it 's something that maybe would help us in terms of better understanding and better evaluation—the point that was made earlier . nathan cook: and the other data we do have is the millennium cohort study , which has been released , for 14 and 15-year-olds . that 's going to be— . we 're starting to think about how we can utilise some of that data , looking at that longitudinal picture around children as well , which will be really helpful . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . you 've answered my next question . thank you . lynne neagle am: can i just ask about the child measurement programme ? the strategy commits to looking at whether we can have a second measurement taking place in wales . can you just tell us a bit more about your thinking on that and when you would see a second measurement taking place and how you would use that data ? dr frank atherton: i touched on that just now , but personally i do think it would be helpful to have more information . it 's always the case , there 's always a trade-off between the cost of getting that information and the value of the information . so , the question of how it would be used would be really important . there is still a lot that we do n't know . we know an awful lot about obesity and being overweight and the causes of it , but we do n't really have a very clear understanding , in wales at least , of the point at which children start to become overweight . although we know that overweight children tend to go on to become overweight adults , we do n't know what proportion of them between school entry and later teenage years—what those changes are . so , it would help us to have some better understanding , which would help to direct some of our initiatives . i 'd be generally supportive of the principle . we 'll wait and see what comes out in the consultation , and it 's something that we need to give thought to , but we do have to trade off the additionality of what the information would give us with the cost of doing that , of course . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on healthy environments from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . in the draft plan , some of the measures in there suggest legislating for restricting price promotions and banning energy drinks , and that sort of thing . do you think that , if we go down that road , there 's going to be time within this assembly to introduce such legislation ? and , if not , what do you think might be the timescale for such legislation ? dr frank atherton: it may well be that there are things in wales that we might wish to legislate on , and you 've mentioned two of them , and they 're good examples . we would , obviously , need to undertake quite detailed consultation on those and , in a way , we need to mirror what 's happening in england and in scotland to some degree around the consultations they 're having on energy drinks . we also need to influence the issues that are not devolved to us and we seek to do that . as to your question of legislative time , i 'm not really in a position to answer that . what i could say is that legislation may well be one of the outcomes of the consultation . there may well be things that we wish to choose to legislate on . the timing of that will have to be subject to other pressures , and i come back to the point that legislation , of course , is one of the tools that we 've got—we need to deploy them all . dawn bowden am: sure , i understand that , that you could do other things . i know— . we 've heard from the government , on other calls for legislation , that the programme 's very tight , certainly for this term , so i was just wondering whether we might get that in , but okay . if i turn now to the planning system—and this might not be something that you have great deal of knowledge of ; i 'd just welcome your view on this , because , when we discussed with stakeholders , we talked about whether the planning system , for instance , could be used to , as an example , restrict hot food takeaways around schools and so on . would that be a measure that you would support , something like that ? dr frank atherton: i think it 's definitely something we want to look at and , of course , that question is asked in the consultation , so we would like to know people 's views on that . it 's an interesting one . i think there is a question—a really important question—about how we can use the planning system more effectively . i 've discussed with nathan on a number of occasions , with planning colleagues in welsh government and in local authorities , about the art of the possible , let 's say . there may be things that we could think about and we want to get those ideas through the consultation . the specific question around takeaways , particularly takeaways near schools , is often asked . i was very interested to see , up in the north-east , some time ago , that one of the local authorities up there did put a moratorium on the opening of new fast-food venues near to schools , or indeed in areas where levels of obesity and overweight were particularly high . i understand london is now—some london boroughs are now—experimenting with that as well . so , that gave me comfort , because maybe there are powers within local authorities that can be used more effectively . i think my view at the moment is that the jury 's kind of out on whether those are effective and how effective they 're going to be . but the fact that we have some initiatives around the uk does give us an opportunity to study that and to learn from experience perhaps and then , if it is shown to be beneficial , to think about that here in wales , yes . dawn bowden am: sure , because it will only be one of a suite of measures anyway . of itself , it would n't address the problem , but , added to other initiatives , i guess it would . can i just ask you briefly , then , about community sport infrastructure and , in particular , of new schools ? so , welsh government , as you know , has ploughed a huge amount of money into the twenty-first century schools programme . what we heard when we spoke to stakeholders recently , particularly headteachers , was that , in some of the new schools that have been built , we have n't had changing rooms and toilet facilities , for instance , built into the new buildings . so , if we 're going to try and utilise these buildings for general community activity to get kids and the wider public , actually , more active , do you think that 's something that we ought to be building in ? again , not your particular direct area of responsibility , but something that you might have an input into , is that , when we 're developing schools , we should be making sure that they have those kinds of facilities so that they become accessible to the wider public . is that something that you would be prepared to make a recommendation around ? dr frank atherton: well , it 's certainly a fascinating area and one that i think has a lot of potential . it goes— . you 're right to raise it in the context of schools , and i can understand why this committee would , but i think it goes beyond that , actually , into all developments in the public sector and how they 're developed and whether we 're building health into our environment , which perhaps is your starting point . one of the things that i was really pleased to see in terms of the public health ( wales ) act 2017 that was passed a couple of years ago was the use of health impact assessment as a tool , and we 're still working on how that will inform policy and how that will be applied in issues such as policy decisions through government , but also in more downstream issues about how we create the public infrastructure that the public can and should be using . and so i would like to see the use of health impact assessments to a much greater degree to inform those kinds of decisions . if you apply that kind of lens and you take the point , which is inherent in your question , i think , that schools are not just for kids , they 're for communities , then you would—it would lead you to a conclusion that you would perhaps design and build them in a different way . so , on a personal basis , i would certainly support your view that we should be looking to use the sports environment in schools in the same way as we use leisure centres . there are all kinds of barriers in there , and i understand all of that , and it 's not really my field , exactly as you say , but , as a matter of principle , i think it 's a good one to pursue . dawn bowden am: okay . thank you . and widening it out to other public services buildings as well . dr frank atherton: indeed . dawn bowden am: yes . okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 're going to move on now to talk about how we create healthy settings . i 've got some questions from suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you very much . yes , perhaps if we could just stay in this area of education just for a moment , i think we all agree that healthy habits acquired early on probably tend to last quite well , so i wonder if you can tell us a little bit about the healthy and sustainable preschool scheme and whether you think some timescales should be made public about what you expect the achievements from that scheme to be . but , in particular , i was struck with what you said about local leadership , and i just want you to bear that in mind in answering the next question , which is about the foundation phase . you 're probably aware that this committee has heard from various school leaders that they 're struggling in some cases to meet the ratio of staffing for the foundation phase , which potentially compromises the purpose of it in terms of physical activity . i 'm just wondering how the strategy development board is considering that at the moment . is it something that 's come on the radar for the board ? is it something you 're thinking about ? and , if so , who do you think should be responsible for pinning that down a little bit ? because this is education , not health , and— . dr frank atherton: well , look , i 've got to confess to you , i 'm not an educationist , and so the question on staffing numbers in schools is not one that i have been asked to give a deal of consideration to , and it has n't really been discussed , i do n't believe , in the context of development of the strategy . if there is a specific point around that that the committee would like to make in terms of a response into the consultation , which i presume you 'll be making , then we 'd be happy to consider that . as to healthy preschools , i do n't know , nathan may have some view on that . i 've not been closely involved with the work . we have standards and we perhaps need to think about how we tighten those standards and how we—enforce is n't the right word , but how we implement and make sure that those standards are properly implemented , because you 're absolutely right to say that habits are developed early in life . that 's in the preschool ; it 's also in the home of course , and then later in the school . so , we do need to look at all of those as settings and are there more things we can do within those settings to drive healthier behaviours—that 's exactly why we need the consultation . nathan cook: but i would say , through that scheme as well , we 've really got a really good bank of preschools that are actually doing some really great work in this area as well . so , i think the more we can understand the successes that some of those environments are having—you know , how we can roll those out and work across other settings to create that wider impact as well is going to be really important . suzy davies am: okay . thank you . what i 'm thinking about is expectations at that level will be expectations at a slightly older level , which will be contained within the foundation phase . and while you 're quite right—obviously , parents have a role in this , or families—there will be , particularly with the introduction of the new curriculum , certain expectations on schools to provide not just healthy environments but to actively work towards well-being and healthy weight in children and things . and that 's why i asked you about local leadership , because , if it fails for reasons that have nothing to do with the plan at foundation phase , it 's going to fail further up the school years as well . i think it might be something that the board might want to consider here , because at some point there 'll be an accountability question and we will want to know how 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' fits in with the new plans for the new curriculum , and whether it 's merely persuasive and influential or whether it has the weight to place some obligations on school leaders about what they do in their schools . so , this connection , i think , is quite an important one , and , if the strategy development board could consider that , i think it would be very helpful , because this does n't exist in a vacuum . dr frank atherton: well , i 'd certainly be delighted to take that back and we can look at it in terms of how we move from the consultation into the final strategy . it 's certainly a point we can try and look at . suzy davies am: because we will want to know who to ask : 'you 're the accountable person—why has something worked , or not worked ? ' we will need to know that at some point . dr frank atherton: just building on nathan 's point , some of the schools—i know it 's schools rather than the preschools , and i take your point , but some of the schools we 've been working with have absolutely brilliant models of good practice and good local leadership . i remember the minister actually at the launch , and one of the schools was represented there , and they presented—the school came and some of the children came and presented—to the whole audience about the activities that they were undertaking in their school around physical activity and on healthy eating , and it was such a model of good behaviour the question was , 'well , why not everywhere ? ' , so that probably speaks to your question . suzy davies am: okay , well , thank you for that commitment anyway . lynne neagle am: and have you had any discussions , then , with education officials around things like teacher training and cpd , because you 'll be aware the health and social care committee has made a number of recommendations in this area ? it 's crucial that we skill up the staff to develop these things in an appropriate way , is n't it ? dr frank atherton: well , we certainly discuss with education colleagues in welsh government . there 's more we need to do in terms of that , because you 're absolutely right : there 's something about building the whole of the workforce—education is really important , but elsewhere as well ; it 's about how do we really make every contact count , you know , that construct . so , everybody who 's working in the health and social care system should have a role in this ; everybody who works in education , whether it 's the old— . do we still have dinner ladies ? or teachers , you know , they have a role to play in supporting children to be as healthy as they possibly can . and , actually , i see them , chair , as a really essential part of the public health workforce . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . suzy , are you going to do your curriculum one ? suzy davies am: well , i 've bound it in together , but that final point you make about teachers being part of the answer to this , they 're already under a range of pressures : is it fair to make them accountable for whether this works or not ? or should that local leadership lie somewhere else ? i do n't expect you to pin down a person today . dr frank atherton: i would n't like to blame a teacher or performance manage them on the proportion of their children in their class who are overweight . that would clearly be nonsense , would n't it ? but they are part of the solution , and so the accountability lies further up the chain , does n't it ? the question i think we would have , and public services boards might well ask , and the local education authorities may well ask , is : how effective is any particular school at driving forwards these healthy behaviours ? suzy davies am: okay , thank you . i 'll leave some questions for hefin . lynne neagle am: hefin . hefin david am: is that all right , chair ? lynne neagle am: you 've got the floor , hefin . hefin david am: thank you , chair . you make a commitment to embedding physical activity at an early stage in primary school education . what would that look like ? dr frank atherton: just in terms of the physical activity , i have to say it 's a really important dimension and we need to move further on . we know not enough of our children are physically active and they 're not meeting the various guidelines , so it 's really important . it does n't actually have as much of an impact on weight as the dietary issue . i 'd just say that . it 's really important for all sorts of reasons . it does have an impact on healthy weight , but it has a huge impact in terms of socialisation , in terms of mental health issues , et cetera , you know . so—i 'm sorry , i 've lost track of your question . nathan cook: i 'd just say that one thing we have got in train is , obviously , sport wales , public health wales and natural resources wales—we have them working together as a collaborative at the moment to look at how their joint delivery on physical activity can be taken forward more efficiently . so , one of the things they are looking at is obviously the schools programmes they do through eco-schools , the welsh network of healthy schools and the sports programme to really think about that physical activity and how we can have better join up in terms of the programmes that we 're already delivering as well . hefin david am: with that in mind , i 'm going to confess to you , chief medical officer , i did anything in school i could to avoid physical education lessons . i hated it . i did n't feel engaged with it . yet , two weeks ago , i played for the assembly rugby team—i wanted to get that in . the school sports survey , that would suggest that we 're still not hitting those targets with children . how can we get children more engaged with physical education in ways that— ? i felt completely alienated in school . dr frank atherton: well , you 're right , and many people go through that same journey and come to physical activity later in life , and that 's great if they do that . the sad reality is that many people do n't , and we also know that there are issues around the dropping off , particularly for girls , of physical activity towards the teenage years . so , there are specific moments that we need to understand . we do have a lot of information about these kinds of things . public health wales is very good at collating the information . we do need to turn that into programmes . i mean , at the heart of it , it 's about making sports and physical activity enjoyable and attractive to people . sometimes that 's easier , i sense , for boys than for girls , but we need to tailor things to different audiences . hefin david am: yes , that 's the trick , is n't it ? it 's about finding out what children enjoy doing . that could be quite a wide and varied range of things . is that the key ? dawn bowden am: it 's not all about organised team sports . hefin david am: yes . as dawn said , it 's not just about organised team sports . there are some very individual activities you could do . dr frank atherton: absolutely , yes . and that 's where i think— . i 'm delighted that sport wales has moved beyond . it 's not just about elite sports ; it 's about getting everybody engaged and active in sports , and that partnership with public health wales that nathan talked about is really important , because we need a population approach to driving physical activity . hefin david am: so , do you think , with that in mind , we need statutory guidance for schools on physical education ? dr frank atherton: again , i 'd look to the consultation as to whether there was an appetite for any kind of guidance . it may well be that that is something that could be considered . hefin david am: okay . and finally , with regard to free school meals to all pupils in primary and secondary schools , do you think that extending that to all pupils would be beneficial in providing a more varied diet for pupils ? dr frank atherton: i do n't have a personal view on that . i think it 's the quality of the food that kids are getting , whether that comes from home or through school , and whether it 's free or whether it 's paid for . i think it 's the quality of the food that we need to focus on . the question of children being hungry at school is a really important one and needs to be addressed at a national level . i think that 's a— hefin david am: so , you think that 's more about the provision of food for those who might not have access to it than providing a varied diet . dr frank atherton: i think it 's important that children have access to food , absolutely , if that 's your question , but we also need to look at the quality of the food and what 's in that food offer . hefin david am: but you do n't necessarily think universal provision would— . dr frank atherton: i do n't have a clear view on that . i know there 's a larger debate about that . hefin david am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: i 've got some supplementaries from janet and then suzy . janet finch-saunders am: yes . i 've been around some amazing schools in my own constituency , where they 've got proper canteen facilities for pupils and really , really good produce in the meals . however , there 's probably only a third having school meals ; the rest are packed lunches . and , to be honest , i 've been very surprised and shocked at what i 've seen of the quality of the food in the packed lunches . nobody can really police , and i would n't want to see parents being policed over what goes in a packed lunch , so if there is data out there to suggest that there 's a larger percentage of parents providing packed lunched that are really not good at all , then there is some merit to be said for what hefin is— . me , personally , i 'd love to see the introduction of universal school meals . i think it 's been a very retrograde step , going backwards . would you be willing to carry out any research ? dr frank atherton: so , i mean , your point about food that 's brought in in the packed lunches is a really important one , and i 've talked to some headteachers as well about this . we could go down a route of guidance and prohibition , but that gets you into the role of nanny in chief and i do n't really see that as my role or government 's role , and i do n't think it 's effective either . do you remember— ? you must have seen on tv—i think it was in scotland ; i do n't know if it 's happened in wales—parents pushing the fish and chip packets through the school railings . we do n't need to get into that . what i have seen , though , is some really good innovative practice in schools where , for example , they reward children for bringing the healthy options . schools can give guidance to parents about what would be a healthy lunch and what sort of things might be expected to be seen in the lunch box . and you can reward children , and children do respond to rewards . so , i 've seen some of those approaches that have transformed , actually , the offer of what comes in school boxes . but i think just banning chocolate bars and crisps in the packed lunch is unlikely to be successful . janet finch-saunders am: we ca n't do that . so , my point to the question was : is n't there some merit , perhaps , about all children being equal and eating similar good-quality food in schools ? dr frank atherton: yes . that gets you back to the question about universal school meals . janet finch-saunders am: perhaps some of that £56 million sugar tax , even . who knows ? lynne neagle am: suzy . suzy davies am: yes . mine is just a short question . the draft plan commits , does n't it , to updating the healthy eating in schools regulations—the 2013 regulations ? i appreciate this is a consultation , but what is it that needs changing in those regulations at the moment , just to give us a bit of steer ? nathan cook: it 's mainly on sugar content , so , obviously , they do n't adhere to current scientific advisory committee on nutrition guidelines around sugar levels . so , what we 'd want to consider is , you know , what we need to be careful of is unintended consequences of changing that , as well , if you see a shift to more kids bringing in school packed lunches as well . so , i think we want to consider the best way of doing that and consider through the consultation how we can go about it . suzy davies am: all right . so , it 's very pertinent to janet 's question , in that way . okay , so it 's mainly about sugar , but it could be about other things as well . okay . thanks . lynne neagle am: okay . the next questions are from janet anyway ; firstly , on the clinical obesity pathway . janet finch-saunders am: the 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' plan commits to a review of the clinical obesity pathway . what are the time frames for this review , and what do you think are the basic essentials of a clinical obesity pathway for children and young people ? dr frank atherton: we do have a pathway for managing overweight , and that 's been in place since about 2010 , i believe , and we do need to bring that up to date in terms of current knowledge and experiences . we 've challenged public health wales ; we 've asked public health wales to undertake a review of that pathway , and they are going through that process now . i 'm not sure of exactly the time frame that we have given them for that . nathan cook: we were asking them to review the pathway before we launch the final strategy in october because , obviously , what we want is for that to inform what that final strategy looks like . so , we 'll be looking probably early autumn for them to report back on that . dr frank atherton: the second point of your question about what are the essential elements , i mean , they are already there ; we need to tweak them and we need to make sure that they 're properly delivered . but it 's a tiered approach , so , having access to information through schools and through communities and into families is part of the first step of that . and then , if children are overweight , it 's a question about how they 're identified . there are questions about the ability of the public to recognise large children , so there may be an issue there . but when children are running into issues around weight , what kind of interventions can be put in , either through primary care or through communities through health visitors , et cetera ? and then of course we do have—and we 've started to shine a light on this , have n't we—the very overweight children . i do n't think we have enough in the way of targeted support to be able to support those . there are programmes available , but they 're perhaps not universally provided . so , i think there 's something about looking at our whole pathway , mapping out what the current evidence now shows us is needed , and then thinking about what is our provision in wales and what do we need to do to bring that up to the level of the places that are the best . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . the draft plan recognises the importance of the first 1,000 days , but it does n't appear to include any new proposals to help parents to enable lifestyle changes . it lists existing initiatives , such as the healthy child wales programme and breastfeeding action plan . are you satisfied that the draft plan does enough to address the influence that family and parents have on children 's healthy weight behaviours , particularly in the first 1,000 days ? dr frank atherton: well , the first 1,000 days are really critically in shaping lives , as i 'm sure you 'd agree . we are absolutely open to any other suggestions that the public or this committee have as to what more we can and should do . there are a number of things , the sorts of programmes you 've mentioned , that i think could be more effective . we 're currently looking at breastfeeding because it starts before birth , actually . we know that children who are breastfed are less likely to suffer from obesity in childhood and , indeed , to go on to be obese adults . so , we do need to go further on that . we do have some programmes—healthy working wales , et cetera—that need to be improved . if there are other interventions in other areas that we need to take , then we 'd be delighted to hear what they are , but those are the ones that have jumped out so far . nathan cook: can i just say— ? one of the proposals we 're looking for is , obviously , we know that during pregnancy it 's a really critical time when we can actually look to work with mothers . we know from looking at some of the behaviour change that it 's actually a really critical point when new mothers really start thinking about their lives , wanting the best for their child and their families . so , what we are thinking about is how we could develop some kind of approaches to that going forward . but we know our healthy start scheme is also a good lever for us , just in terms of how we can look to improve that kind of dietary offer at the earliest stage as well . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . finally , we know that for some families day-to-day challenges can make it difficult for them to make healthy choices , particularly for those on lower incomes and/or maybe using food banks . could the welsh government take bolder action to better support low-income families to eat healthily ? dr frank atherton: well , you 've touched on a really important point about inequalities because overweight and obesity is not evenly distributed across our population . it absolutely is more prevalent in more socioeconomically deprived communities , and that 's something that should really concern us all . so , it gets you to questions of availability of fresh food and produce ; it gets you to questions of formulation of products and whether value brands are less healthy than more premium brands . so , it cuts across all of those issues that we talked about in terms of settings and in terms of environment earlier . there is something about the affordability of good-quality healthy food that we need to think about . we do need to think in broad terms—broader terms than just obesity , but we do need to think in broad terms—about how we create a society where families have the wherewithal to lead healthy lives , and that gets you to really important questions about the minimum wage and income poverty . there 's no doubt in my mind—i 'm a public health professional—and there 's no doubt in my mind that economic success and health success go hand in hand . so , you speak to a very deep question there . in terms of what we can do through this particular consultation , there are some things in there about providing better access , but without tackling some of those deeper determinants of health , their impact will necessarily be limited . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: just finally from me , then , you referred earlier to the importance of making every contact count , but some stakeholders have told the committee that they struggle to do that because of difficulties in availability of people to refer to . is that a situation that you recognise and what , really , can we do to improve that situation ? dr frank atherton: well , it depends what you mean as to where to refer to . so , the health system obviously needs to respond to this issue . what we 're seeing across the nhs is a gradual transformation in primary care so that primary care is no longer about going to see your gp , it 's about going to see a practice where you have a range of health professionals . would i like to see more dietetic support , for example , in that setting ? absolutely i would . i think we need to think in terms of that pathway that we were talking about earlier , about access to that kind of advice and support , which can head off people getting into problems and kids getting into problems with weight issues . so , that question of redesign of the pathway really speaks to , i think , your point about , 'well , where do people go when they have problems with their weight ? ' that 's true for adults and it 's true for children as well . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . are there any other questions from members ? no . okay . well , can i thank you both very much for your attendance ? it 's been a really productive session . we appreciate your time . you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy in due course , but thank you again . dr frank atherton: we 'll do that . thank you , chair , and thank you to the committee , because getting some input into the consultation from children 's perspectives , this would be one of the routes we would absolutely welcome . thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much . item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the welsh health specialised services committee on camhs tier 4 provision . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for health and social services also on camhs in-patient provision . paper to note 3 is a letter from the children commissioner for wales on tier 4 camhs provision . paper to note 4 is a letter from qualifications wales to the minister for education on qualifications for the new curriculum . paper to note 5 is a letter from me to the minister for education on the development of the new curriculum . paper to note 6 is a letter from me to the minister for education seeking clarification on the draft additional learning needs code . paper to note 7 is a letter from me to the minister for education seeking clarification on the response to our brexit report . paper to note 8 is a letter from the equality and human rights commission on a cumulative impact assessment briefing for committee , which has been offered . paper to note 9 is a letter from the chair of the petitions committee on a national taskforce for children ’ s mental health . paper to note 10 is a letter to the secretary of state for exiting the european union from the children ’ s commissioners for england , scotland , wales and northern ireland on the implications of brexit for children . there are a few that i 'd like to return to in private , but are members happy to note those ? thank you . okay . item 4 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? suzy davies am: yes . there 's somebody up there . lynne neagle am: thank you .

there was no exact evaluation but dr frank atherton did think they should have a strong one . the draft strategy also made an estimate in investment which would be £8 million to £10 million a year . investment would be spent on different sources and they should pay more attention to extending them . speaking of leadership , dr frank atherton agreed to its importance and made his own opinion that local leadership was essential and they should also have national oversight at the same time .

what did dr frank atherton think of having a target ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from michelle brown and jack sargeant ; there are no substitutions . can i ask if members have any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . we 'll move on , then , to item 2 , which is our scrutiny of the 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' draft strategy , and i 'm very pleased to welcome dr frank atherton , the chief medical officer for wales , and nathan cook , who is the head of the healthy and active branch at welsh government . thank you , both , for attending this morning . we 're very much looking forward to hearing what you 've got to say . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions . if i can just start by asking about the fact that 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' is an all-age strategy , really , and how confident you are that it will deliver for children and young people . dr frank atherton: well , we 're very confident . i mean , it has to , quite clearly . we do need to think about the present generation , the problems faced by the current generation . we have high prevalence of overweight and obesity among adults—we know that , and we ca n't walk away from that because that 's translating into demand on health services . but we have to take a focus , a future generation 's focus , almost , on the next generation . i do n't write off the current generation , we ca n't afford to do that , but we do need to think about what can we do that would be different for the next generation so that they do n't get into the sorts of problems that we 're currently seeing with overweight and obesity . we know that the consequences of that for our young people are going to be enormous if we do n't do something and something quite soon . we know that overweight children go on to become overweight adults , unfortunately , and that brings all the consequences of multiple disease issues—diabetes is often cited—cancer risk et cetera . so , we have to focus on children , and , in fact , during the consultation , we 've been very clear that we need to engage with children and young people as well . perhaps we 'll get into that at some point , chair , but , yes , i can give you that assurance . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . what my follow-up question , really , is : can you just tell us what kind of engagement you 've had with children and young people to inform the draft strategy ? dr frank atherton: well , nathan may be able to influence some of the detail , but in broad terms , we have discussed with young people in a number of fora . in fact , i was delighted that we had a young person , evie morgan , a schoolgirl from mid wales , who came to the joint launch on the consultation . she met the minister there and gave a very good personal account of her views on obesity and overweight . we 've been visiting a number of schools during the consultation process . i 'm visiting a school , either this week or next week , at treorchy , to talk with teachers and young people there . obviously , we 're hopeful that schools and young people will contribute to the consultation as well . so , we 've had quite good input , i would say , from children and young people . there is always more we can do we and we want to hear those voices . nathan cook: i was going to say , we 've also had a session with youth ambassadors as well , and what we 've actually produced for the consultation is not just the children and young people 's version , but also a toolkit in terms of getting schools really engaged and involved in terms of the work that we want them to do to feed into this as well . so , we 've already had some really good responses from a lot of youth group and schools already . lynne neagle am: and you 've got a structured programme , have you , to roll that out ? okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on leadership , and the first questions are from siân gwenllian . sian gwenllian am: good morning . i 'll be speaking in welsh . the minister for health said yesterday , in answering a question from me on the chamber floor , that you gave him advice not to have a target in terms of reducing obesity among children . could you confirm that that 's what your advice was and tell us why you do n't think that a target is needed ? dr frank atherton: my advice was not that we do n't need a target—we may well need a target , and that 's one of the issues we need to consult on—but that the target that had been adopted in england and in scotland to halve the prevalence of obesity in children was more aspirational than deliverable , and that if we are to choose a target in wales , then we need to balance deliverability with challenge . we need a challenging environment . so , there is something about performance management , because i would be looking to not just the health system but the health and care system and to public services boards to think about how they 're delivering on this , and i think we can use targets to that . but they are one tool in the box that i would think we could use , and part of the consultation is to ask that question—'if we are to go down a route in wales of choosing a target , what might that look like ? ' sian gwenllian am: okay . so , to be clear , you 're not ruling out that maybe we would need a target . dr frank atherton: it 's certainly something that we could consider in terms of the final strategy . sian gwenllian am: and is that your opinion too ? nathan cook: yes . sian gwenllian am: okay . well , that is contrary to what i was told yesterday on the floor of the chamber by the minister , but there we go . i 'm glad to hear that you 're not ruling out having a target , because without a target , without something to aim for , how do we know that we 're getting there ? dr frank atherton: i think your point about evaluation is really important . whatever we produce at the end of this process—and we 're looking to produce a final strategy towards the autumn—we do need to have a strong evaluation . so , some metrics in there , it would seem , would be appropriate , but what those are , what the nature of those are , do we frame them as targets or ambitions—that 's the point we need to consult on . sian gwenllian am: okay . and the other point , of course , is the investment . if the government is going to be successful in terms of the aim of reducing childhood obesity , then it needs to fund and support the actions . have you made an assessment of the level of investment needed to implement this plan ? dr frank atherton: resourcing will be important . we currently do make investments in a number of areas that relate to child health generally , and , of course , obesity and overweight in particular . so , the question of resourcing is important . now , we ca n't quantify an absolute amount of resource that will be needed to deliver until we know exactly what 's going to come out of the consultation and what actions we might want to deliver to a greater degree in wales . a figure of £8 million to £10 million a year has been banded around as a broad kind of area of what we might need to invest , but that would need to be drawn from existing programmes . we need to look at existing programmes , how effective they are . can we make them more effective ? can we get better value from them ? and there may well be a case for new investment , and that 's a question , of course , that would need to be discussed with ministers when we 're producing the final strategy . nathan cook: but i think a key consideration as well is we already know there is investment across health boards in some kind of obesity-related services . so , i think what we really need to think about across wales is how we can drive greater scale , how we can look at current programmes in terms of making sure that they 're better evaluated , and how we can make sure that we 're also drawing up on the existing resources and capacity out there as well . sian gwenllian am: and does the level of investment depend on what the target is—what the goal is ? dr frank atherton: i do n't think you can necessarily just link the two . the issue of resourcing is one that 's there irrespective of whether we choose to put a target in place . sian gwenllian am: but how would we know that it 's being used effectively if there is n't something to aim for ? dr frank atherton: which brings you back to the question about evaluation . we need proper evaluation of the various programmes that we have . sian gwenllian am: yes , but without a target , how can you properly evaluate ? if you do n't know what you 're trying to do , how can you properly evaluate ? anyway , you 're open to suggestions about having a target , which is great . would you agree that government could use the revenue that 's being produced through the levy on soft drinks towards some of these efforts to— ? dr frank atherton: well , of course , there are some consequentials that are coming to the welsh government as part of the levy on sugary soft drinks . that funding , of course , is less than we had anticipated , and that reflects , actually , a success story because industry is reformulating , and so the amount of sugar in soft drinks is already starting to decrease , which is a good thing . but to your question : should we use the funding ? well , of course we should use funding . i 'm not personally in favour of hypothecation , i think i 'm more interested in the totality of resource that goes into public health programmes than into marginal resource . there are , of course , a number of initiatives that we currently fund through the general revenue . and when i think about obesity , i do n't just think about the relatively small marginal amounts of money that come in through whatever source , but i think about the totality of the £7 billion we spend in health and social care and how we can divert and channel some of that towards broad prevention initiatives in general , and towards tackling being overweight and obesity in particular . sian gwenllian am: you 're saying that it 's less than expected . could you give us any kind of figure ? dr frank atherton: i 'm sorry , could you repeat the question ? sian gwenllian am: you say that there is less money that 's come in through these consequentials from the levy , can you mention some sort of figure ? dr frank atherton: the figure that i have in mind is about £56 million that 's coming in in terms of revenue over a two-year period . but i 'd have to confirm that with the committee . what the anticipated— . when the sugar levy was first brought in , there was some modelling at uk level about what level of revenue that would bring , but it was based on the amount of sugar that was currently then in drinks and the fact that the sugar has reduced in drinks , i mean , the total amount available to the uk is less and hence our consequentials are less . nathan may have some precise figures . nathan cook: yes , i was going to say , there was a mid-year report done where the levy has raised £150 million to date since coming into force in april , and the original forecast was £520 million a year . so , i think that shows the amount of work that 's been done by industry around reformulation . sian gwenllian am: and the consequentials of that ? that is the consequential—£150 million . nathan cook: on a uk level . sian gwenllian am: yes , so what 's the welsh consequential ? lynne neagle am: fifty-six . sian gwenllian am: fifty-six ? gosh , that sounds a lot . anyway , it 's a good sum of money and you 're talking about investing £8 million to £10 million . so , obviously , you know , we can be more ambitious because there is money in that pot if that money was ring-fenced for this particular scheme . dr frank atherton: well , the resource is going to be a real issue that we need to address , and i think as nathan has said , there is funding of various initiatives currently in the system , and we need to look at that and make that as effective as possible . will there be a need for some additional resource ? there may well be , and that 's a question that we 'll have to look at in terms of the strategy when we develop it and have a discussion with ministers about the level of resourcing . lynne neagle am: can i just ask on that before siân moves on ? what assessment have you made of how that money is being spent in other uk nations ? because my understanding is that the money is being used in other uk nations to directly impact on obesity . have you given any consideration to— ? as i understand it , that money now is being dispersed around a plethora of programmes , including the transformation programme , and what i found very odd , really , was vaccination , which is surely the core business of the nhs . have you got any view on that ? dr frank atherton: i 'm not sure i understand your point , chair , in terms of the link between the consequentials from— . are you talking about the consequentials from the sugar levy or are you talking about— ? lynne neagle am: yes , because in other nations , it is being used to directly impact on initiatives to tackle obesity , whereas , we 've kind of put it here in wales into the general pot and it 's being used to fund a plethora of different things . dr frank atherton: well , that cuts to what i was talking about . my preference—it 's a personal view—is that hypothecation does n't really help us too much . i mean , what we need to look at is whether the programmes , the sorts of programmes that are being funded in england , or indeed in scotland , are working effectively , and if they are , are they being delivered here in wales ? we have looked very carefully at the plans that england and scotland have for tackling obesity and overweight , and we 've made a comparison with what we 're doing in wales , and our ambition in wales is to go further than those nations , in many ways . but i come back to the point that just linking the hypothecation of a relatively small amount of resource is likely to be less impactful than asking a question of public services boards and of the health system , indeed , about how much money , overall , are we putting into prevention . lynne neagle am: no , i recognise that , and i think we 're talking about additional resource . suzy . suzy davies am: i was just wondering whether you thought that there was a useful psychological link on the part of the public between saying , 'here 's a sugar levy ' , and 'it 's going to be used to help children and adults stay healthier . ' going into a pot , it actually makes it quite difficult to explain the purpose of the tax in the first place . so , i take your overall point , but in terms of the people who we 're trying to help in all this , actually creating a direct link might be quite helpful . dr frank atherton: you may be right . i 'm not a behavioural psychologist . we 'd have to ask— suzy davies am: neither am i. i 'm a person who eats a lot of sugar . [ laughter . ] dr frank atherton: your point 's taken . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: thanks . siân . sian gwenllian am: the last question from me , about partnership working . you 're putting an emphasis on the whole-system approach in implementing the plan , how are you going to create a system that co-ordinates action and drives change across relevant partners , avoiding a situation where it 's everyone 's role , but nobody 's responsibility ? how are you going to avoid that ? dr frank atherton: it 's a very important question , and one of the four strands in the consultation is exactly related to that , around leadership and drive nationally . i 'm not interested in producing a strategy that sits on a shelf . if you look around the world , there are plenty of obesity strategies . you may notice , by the way , that we 've chosen not to talk about an obesity strategy but a healthy weight strategy , because i think having a positive construct is really quite important to us here in wales . but leadership will be really important , and we will need some sort of structure to lead this , to provide oversight . i 'm not a great believer in creating new structures , so we do need something that will give that drive , but the leadership comes from the top down . we need political commitment to this , and that 's why i welcome the input from this committee . so , that needs to be assured . and then we need to make sure that the public sector generally is engaged in this , but it goes way beyond the public sector , of course , because we have to work with industry , and we have to work with communities , and we have to work with the public on this . so we need to think about our governance system for this and how we drive it forward . interestingly , we had quite a large discussion two days ago between health and social care , but also involving the third sector and some members of the public , around how can we drive prevention more generally . it was n't specifically on obesity , but of course obesity came up because it 's such a pressing issue . this question of governance was discussed quite extensively , and we do have governance systems , of course , in wales . we have public services boards , we have regional partnership boards , and how we can get those aligned behind this common agenda is really important . but i 'd like to see—and i know i 'm a public health professional , so i know that only maybe 10 per cent , 15 per cent , possibly 20 per cent of what makes and keeps us healthy as individuals and as communities can be driven through the health system ; but i would like the system to step up and take these kinds of issues more seriously as well . so i 'd be looking for local leadership through directors of public health and indeed through chief executives to work with their public services boards on this . so , we 'll need some sort of national oversight , absolutely , but we need local ownership and local leadership , too . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 've got some questions now from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . delivery of the plan will be led by a national implementation board that will be accountable to ministers . which minister do you believe it should be accountable to , or , given the complexity of obesity , should the board be directly accountable to the first minister ? dr frank atherton: ultimately , the first minister will be responsible for this and will want to have a strong oversight of this . it is often framed as a health issue , and the minister , vaughan gething , has a strong personal commitment to this , i know . we 've talked extensively with him and with sports and recreation colleagues about that , so there 's a link there . it does cut across all portfolios , and so this is an issue that i have discussed with cabinet , and that collective ownership is really important , and will be , because it ca n't just sit in one domain . i think what you do need to have is you do need to have a lead organisation or a lead ministry , and i would see health as—i work within health , so i 'm perhaps biased , but i would see health as leading this , but it needs broad ownership across government . janet finch-saunders am: i know my colleague siân gwenllian mentioned earlier targets and things , but i know in wales we 're not too good at collecting data . what data is currently available on childhood obesity and what metrics will be used to measure progress against the plan 's objectives ? dr frank atherton: well , of course , our main data source is the child measurement programme , which collects information on children entering school aged four or five . that 's our main source of information . if we look at that data , it shows us— . well , i 'm sure you 're familiar with the statistics , but it 'll be just under a third of children at that age who are overweight or obese— janet finch-saunders am: could i just ask—sorry to interrupt—how up to date is that ? dr frank atherton: the last survey was just last year . nathan cook: the data was published last week . dr frank atherton: yes , the lastest data was out last week . janet finch-saunders am: it is pretty up to date . dr frank atherton: so , it 's pretty up to date , and what it shows— . it 's not getting radically worse—there 's always statistical variation in these things—but it 's not getting any better . and , for the first time last year , we did look at the question not just of children who were overweight or obese , but we actually singled out the proportion who are obese , severely obese . so we have a figure for that for the first time , which is about 12 per cent , which is quite shocking , in a way . janet finch-saunders am: it is shocking . dr frank atherton: so , that 's our main source of information . does that answer your question ? janet finch-saunders am: yes , but how will any gaps in your data be addressed ? dr frank atherton: well , one of the questions that are often asked is : could we measure more on a longitudinal basis ? by that i mean in england , for example , children are measured at school entry and then again at year 11—at age 11 or 12. , that kind of age group . and so you do have a longitudinal view over time of what 's happening to children . i think that would be helpful to us in wales , and it 's one of the questions in the consultation about whether we should expand that . obviously , that would have significant resource implications , not just for the funding , but also for schools and for the system to deliver it . but it 's something that maybe would help us in terms of better understanding and better evaluation—the point that was made earlier . nathan cook: and the other data we do have is the millennium cohort study , which has been released , for 14 and 15-year-olds . that 's going to be— . we 're starting to think about how we can utilise some of that data , looking at that longitudinal picture around children as well , which will be really helpful . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . you 've answered my next question . thank you . lynne neagle am: can i just ask about the child measurement programme ? the strategy commits to looking at whether we can have a second measurement taking place in wales . can you just tell us a bit more about your thinking on that and when you would see a second measurement taking place and how you would use that data ? dr frank atherton: i touched on that just now , but personally i do think it would be helpful to have more information . it 's always the case , there 's always a trade-off between the cost of getting that information and the value of the information . so , the question of how it would be used would be really important . there is still a lot that we do n't know . we know an awful lot about obesity and being overweight and the causes of it , but we do n't really have a very clear understanding , in wales at least , of the point at which children start to become overweight . although we know that overweight children tend to go on to become overweight adults , we do n't know what proportion of them between school entry and later teenage years—what those changes are . so , it would help us to have some better understanding , which would help to direct some of our initiatives . i 'd be generally supportive of the principle . we 'll wait and see what comes out in the consultation , and it 's something that we need to give thought to , but we do have to trade off the additionality of what the information would give us with the cost of doing that , of course . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on healthy environments from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . in the draft plan , some of the measures in there suggest legislating for restricting price promotions and banning energy drinks , and that sort of thing . do you think that , if we go down that road , there 's going to be time within this assembly to introduce such legislation ? and , if not , what do you think might be the timescale for such legislation ? dr frank atherton: it may well be that there are things in wales that we might wish to legislate on , and you 've mentioned two of them , and they 're good examples . we would , obviously , need to undertake quite detailed consultation on those and , in a way , we need to mirror what 's happening in england and in scotland to some degree around the consultations they 're having on energy drinks . we also need to influence the issues that are not devolved to us and we seek to do that . as to your question of legislative time , i 'm not really in a position to answer that . what i could say is that legislation may well be one of the outcomes of the consultation . there may well be things that we wish to choose to legislate on . the timing of that will have to be subject to other pressures , and i come back to the point that legislation , of course , is one of the tools that we 've got—we need to deploy them all . dawn bowden am: sure , i understand that , that you could do other things . i know— . we 've heard from the government , on other calls for legislation , that the programme 's very tight , certainly for this term , so i was just wondering whether we might get that in , but okay . if i turn now to the planning system—and this might not be something that you have great deal of knowledge of ; i 'd just welcome your view on this , because , when we discussed with stakeholders , we talked about whether the planning system , for instance , could be used to , as an example , restrict hot food takeaways around schools and so on . would that be a measure that you would support , something like that ? dr frank atherton: i think it 's definitely something we want to look at and , of course , that question is asked in the consultation , so we would like to know people 's views on that . it 's an interesting one . i think there is a question—a really important question—about how we can use the planning system more effectively . i 've discussed with nathan on a number of occasions , with planning colleagues in welsh government and in local authorities , about the art of the possible , let 's say . there may be things that we could think about and we want to get those ideas through the consultation . the specific question around takeaways , particularly takeaways near schools , is often asked . i was very interested to see , up in the north-east , some time ago , that one of the local authorities up there did put a moratorium on the opening of new fast-food venues near to schools , or indeed in areas where levels of obesity and overweight were particularly high . i understand london is now—some london boroughs are now—experimenting with that as well . so , that gave me comfort , because maybe there are powers within local authorities that can be used more effectively . i think my view at the moment is that the jury 's kind of out on whether those are effective and how effective they 're going to be . but the fact that we have some initiatives around the uk does give us an opportunity to study that and to learn from experience perhaps and then , if it is shown to be beneficial , to think about that here in wales , yes . dawn bowden am: sure , because it will only be one of a suite of measures anyway . of itself , it would n't address the problem , but , added to other initiatives , i guess it would . can i just ask you briefly , then , about community sport infrastructure and , in particular , of new schools ? so , welsh government , as you know , has ploughed a huge amount of money into the twenty-first century schools programme . what we heard when we spoke to stakeholders recently , particularly headteachers , was that , in some of the new schools that have been built , we have n't had changing rooms and toilet facilities , for instance , built into the new buildings . so , if we 're going to try and utilise these buildings for general community activity to get kids and the wider public , actually , more active , do you think that 's something that we ought to be building in ? again , not your particular direct area of responsibility , but something that you might have an input into , is that , when we 're developing schools , we should be making sure that they have those kinds of facilities so that they become accessible to the wider public . is that something that you would be prepared to make a recommendation around ? dr frank atherton: well , it 's certainly a fascinating area and one that i think has a lot of potential . it goes— . you 're right to raise it in the context of schools , and i can understand why this committee would , but i think it goes beyond that , actually , into all developments in the public sector and how they 're developed and whether we 're building health into our environment , which perhaps is your starting point . one of the things that i was really pleased to see in terms of the public health ( wales ) act 2017 that was passed a couple of years ago was the use of health impact assessment as a tool , and we 're still working on how that will inform policy and how that will be applied in issues such as policy decisions through government , but also in more downstream issues about how we create the public infrastructure that the public can and should be using . and so i would like to see the use of health impact assessments to a much greater degree to inform those kinds of decisions . if you apply that kind of lens and you take the point , which is inherent in your question , i think , that schools are not just for kids , they 're for communities , then you would—it would lead you to a conclusion that you would perhaps design and build them in a different way . so , on a personal basis , i would certainly support your view that we should be looking to use the sports environment in schools in the same way as we use leisure centres . there are all kinds of barriers in there , and i understand all of that , and it 's not really my field , exactly as you say , but , as a matter of principle , i think it 's a good one to pursue . dawn bowden am: okay . thank you . and widening it out to other public services buildings as well . dr frank atherton: indeed . dawn bowden am: yes . okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 're going to move on now to talk about how we create healthy settings . i 've got some questions from suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you very much . yes , perhaps if we could just stay in this area of education just for a moment , i think we all agree that healthy habits acquired early on probably tend to last quite well , so i wonder if you can tell us a little bit about the healthy and sustainable preschool scheme and whether you think some timescales should be made public about what you expect the achievements from that scheme to be . but , in particular , i was struck with what you said about local leadership , and i just want you to bear that in mind in answering the next question , which is about the foundation phase . you 're probably aware that this committee has heard from various school leaders that they 're struggling in some cases to meet the ratio of staffing for the foundation phase , which potentially compromises the purpose of it in terms of physical activity . i 'm just wondering how the strategy development board is considering that at the moment . is it something that 's come on the radar for the board ? is it something you 're thinking about ? and , if so , who do you think should be responsible for pinning that down a little bit ? because this is education , not health , and— . dr frank atherton: well , look , i 've got to confess to you , i 'm not an educationist , and so the question on staffing numbers in schools is not one that i have been asked to give a deal of consideration to , and it has n't really been discussed , i do n't believe , in the context of development of the strategy . if there is a specific point around that that the committee would like to make in terms of a response into the consultation , which i presume you 'll be making , then we 'd be happy to consider that . as to healthy preschools , i do n't know , nathan may have some view on that . i 've not been closely involved with the work . we have standards and we perhaps need to think about how we tighten those standards and how we—enforce is n't the right word , but how we implement and make sure that those standards are properly implemented , because you 're absolutely right to say that habits are developed early in life . that 's in the preschool ; it 's also in the home of course , and then later in the school . so , we do need to look at all of those as settings and are there more things we can do within those settings to drive healthier behaviours—that 's exactly why we need the consultation . nathan cook: but i would say , through that scheme as well , we 've really got a really good bank of preschools that are actually doing some really great work in this area as well . so , i think the more we can understand the successes that some of those environments are having—you know , how we can roll those out and work across other settings to create that wider impact as well is going to be really important . suzy davies am: okay . thank you . what i 'm thinking about is expectations at that level will be expectations at a slightly older level , which will be contained within the foundation phase . and while you 're quite right—obviously , parents have a role in this , or families—there will be , particularly with the introduction of the new curriculum , certain expectations on schools to provide not just healthy environments but to actively work towards well-being and healthy weight in children and things . and that 's why i asked you about local leadership , because , if it fails for reasons that have nothing to do with the plan at foundation phase , it 's going to fail further up the school years as well . i think it might be something that the board might want to consider here , because at some point there 'll be an accountability question and we will want to know how 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' fits in with the new plans for the new curriculum , and whether it 's merely persuasive and influential or whether it has the weight to place some obligations on school leaders about what they do in their schools . so , this connection , i think , is quite an important one , and , if the strategy development board could consider that , i think it would be very helpful , because this does n't exist in a vacuum . dr frank atherton: well , i 'd certainly be delighted to take that back and we can look at it in terms of how we move from the consultation into the final strategy . it 's certainly a point we can try and look at . suzy davies am: because we will want to know who to ask : 'you 're the accountable person—why has something worked , or not worked ? ' we will need to know that at some point . dr frank atherton: just building on nathan 's point , some of the schools—i know it 's schools rather than the preschools , and i take your point , but some of the schools we 've been working with have absolutely brilliant models of good practice and good local leadership . i remember the minister actually at the launch , and one of the schools was represented there , and they presented—the school came and some of the children came and presented—to the whole audience about the activities that they were undertaking in their school around physical activity and on healthy eating , and it was such a model of good behaviour the question was , 'well , why not everywhere ? ' , so that probably speaks to your question . suzy davies am: okay , well , thank you for that commitment anyway . lynne neagle am: and have you had any discussions , then , with education officials around things like teacher training and cpd , because you 'll be aware the health and social care committee has made a number of recommendations in this area ? it 's crucial that we skill up the staff to develop these things in an appropriate way , is n't it ? dr frank atherton: well , we certainly discuss with education colleagues in welsh government . there 's more we need to do in terms of that , because you 're absolutely right : there 's something about building the whole of the workforce—education is really important , but elsewhere as well ; it 's about how do we really make every contact count , you know , that construct . so , everybody who 's working in the health and social care system should have a role in this ; everybody who works in education , whether it 's the old— . do we still have dinner ladies ? or teachers , you know , they have a role to play in supporting children to be as healthy as they possibly can . and , actually , i see them , chair , as a really essential part of the public health workforce . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . suzy , are you going to do your curriculum one ? suzy davies am: well , i 've bound it in together , but that final point you make about teachers being part of the answer to this , they 're already under a range of pressures : is it fair to make them accountable for whether this works or not ? or should that local leadership lie somewhere else ? i do n't expect you to pin down a person today . dr frank atherton: i would n't like to blame a teacher or performance manage them on the proportion of their children in their class who are overweight . that would clearly be nonsense , would n't it ? but they are part of the solution , and so the accountability lies further up the chain , does n't it ? the question i think we would have , and public services boards might well ask , and the local education authorities may well ask , is : how effective is any particular school at driving forwards these healthy behaviours ? suzy davies am: okay , thank you . i 'll leave some questions for hefin . lynne neagle am: hefin . hefin david am: is that all right , chair ? lynne neagle am: you 've got the floor , hefin . hefin david am: thank you , chair . you make a commitment to embedding physical activity at an early stage in primary school education . what would that look like ? dr frank atherton: just in terms of the physical activity , i have to say it 's a really important dimension and we need to move further on . we know not enough of our children are physically active and they 're not meeting the various guidelines , so it 's really important . it does n't actually have as much of an impact on weight as the dietary issue . i 'd just say that . it 's really important for all sorts of reasons . it does have an impact on healthy weight , but it has a huge impact in terms of socialisation , in terms of mental health issues , et cetera , you know . so—i 'm sorry , i 've lost track of your question . nathan cook: i 'd just say that one thing we have got in train is , obviously , sport wales , public health wales and natural resources wales—we have them working together as a collaborative at the moment to look at how their joint delivery on physical activity can be taken forward more efficiently . so , one of the things they are looking at is obviously the schools programmes they do through eco-schools , the welsh network of healthy schools and the sports programme to really think about that physical activity and how we can have better join up in terms of the programmes that we 're already delivering as well . hefin david am: with that in mind , i 'm going to confess to you , chief medical officer , i did anything in school i could to avoid physical education lessons . i hated it . i did n't feel engaged with it . yet , two weeks ago , i played for the assembly rugby team—i wanted to get that in . the school sports survey , that would suggest that we 're still not hitting those targets with children . how can we get children more engaged with physical education in ways that— ? i felt completely alienated in school . dr frank atherton: well , you 're right , and many people go through that same journey and come to physical activity later in life , and that 's great if they do that . the sad reality is that many people do n't , and we also know that there are issues around the dropping off , particularly for girls , of physical activity towards the teenage years . so , there are specific moments that we need to understand . we do have a lot of information about these kinds of things . public health wales is very good at collating the information . we do need to turn that into programmes . i mean , at the heart of it , it 's about making sports and physical activity enjoyable and attractive to people . sometimes that 's easier , i sense , for boys than for girls , but we need to tailor things to different audiences . hefin david am: yes , that 's the trick , is n't it ? it 's about finding out what children enjoy doing . that could be quite a wide and varied range of things . is that the key ? dawn bowden am: it 's not all about organised team sports . hefin david am: yes . as dawn said , it 's not just about organised team sports . there are some very individual activities you could do . dr frank atherton: absolutely , yes . and that 's where i think— . i 'm delighted that sport wales has moved beyond . it 's not just about elite sports ; it 's about getting everybody engaged and active in sports , and that partnership with public health wales that nathan talked about is really important , because we need a population approach to driving physical activity . hefin david am: so , do you think , with that in mind , we need statutory guidance for schools on physical education ? dr frank atherton: again , i 'd look to the consultation as to whether there was an appetite for any kind of guidance . it may well be that that is something that could be considered . hefin david am: okay . and finally , with regard to free school meals to all pupils in primary and secondary schools , do you think that extending that to all pupils would be beneficial in providing a more varied diet for pupils ? dr frank atherton: i do n't have a personal view on that . i think it 's the quality of the food that kids are getting , whether that comes from home or through school , and whether it 's free or whether it 's paid for . i think it 's the quality of the food that we need to focus on . the question of children being hungry at school is a really important one and needs to be addressed at a national level . i think that 's a— hefin david am: so , you think that 's more about the provision of food for those who might not have access to it than providing a varied diet . dr frank atherton: i think it 's important that children have access to food , absolutely , if that 's your question , but we also need to look at the quality of the food and what 's in that food offer . hefin david am: but you do n't necessarily think universal provision would— . dr frank atherton: i do n't have a clear view on that . i know there 's a larger debate about that . hefin david am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: i 've got some supplementaries from janet and then suzy . janet finch-saunders am: yes . i 've been around some amazing schools in my own constituency , where they 've got proper canteen facilities for pupils and really , really good produce in the meals . however , there 's probably only a third having school meals ; the rest are packed lunches . and , to be honest , i 've been very surprised and shocked at what i 've seen of the quality of the food in the packed lunches . nobody can really police , and i would n't want to see parents being policed over what goes in a packed lunch , so if there is data out there to suggest that there 's a larger percentage of parents providing packed lunched that are really not good at all , then there is some merit to be said for what hefin is— . me , personally , i 'd love to see the introduction of universal school meals . i think it 's been a very retrograde step , going backwards . would you be willing to carry out any research ? dr frank atherton: so , i mean , your point about food that 's brought in in the packed lunches is a really important one , and i 've talked to some headteachers as well about this . we could go down a route of guidance and prohibition , but that gets you into the role of nanny in chief and i do n't really see that as my role or government 's role , and i do n't think it 's effective either . do you remember— ? you must have seen on tv—i think it was in scotland ; i do n't know if it 's happened in wales—parents pushing the fish and chip packets through the school railings . we do n't need to get into that . what i have seen , though , is some really good innovative practice in schools where , for example , they reward children for bringing the healthy options . schools can give guidance to parents about what would be a healthy lunch and what sort of things might be expected to be seen in the lunch box . and you can reward children , and children do respond to rewards . so , i 've seen some of those approaches that have transformed , actually , the offer of what comes in school boxes . but i think just banning chocolate bars and crisps in the packed lunch is unlikely to be successful . janet finch-saunders am: we ca n't do that . so , my point to the question was : is n't there some merit , perhaps , about all children being equal and eating similar good-quality food in schools ? dr frank atherton: yes . that gets you back to the question about universal school meals . janet finch-saunders am: perhaps some of that £56 million sugar tax , even . who knows ? lynne neagle am: suzy . suzy davies am: yes . mine is just a short question . the draft plan commits , does n't it , to updating the healthy eating in schools regulations—the 2013 regulations ? i appreciate this is a consultation , but what is it that needs changing in those regulations at the moment , just to give us a bit of steer ? nathan cook: it 's mainly on sugar content , so , obviously , they do n't adhere to current scientific advisory committee on nutrition guidelines around sugar levels . so , what we 'd want to consider is , you know , what we need to be careful of is unintended consequences of changing that , as well , if you see a shift to more kids bringing in school packed lunches as well . so , i think we want to consider the best way of doing that and consider through the consultation how we can go about it . suzy davies am: all right . so , it 's very pertinent to janet 's question , in that way . okay , so it 's mainly about sugar , but it could be about other things as well . okay . thanks . lynne neagle am: okay . the next questions are from janet anyway ; firstly , on the clinical obesity pathway . janet finch-saunders am: the 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' plan commits to a review of the clinical obesity pathway . what are the time frames for this review , and what do you think are the basic essentials of a clinical obesity pathway for children and young people ? dr frank atherton: we do have a pathway for managing overweight , and that 's been in place since about 2010 , i believe , and we do need to bring that up to date in terms of current knowledge and experiences . we 've challenged public health wales ; we 've asked public health wales to undertake a review of that pathway , and they are going through that process now . i 'm not sure of exactly the time frame that we have given them for that . nathan cook: we were asking them to review the pathway before we launch the final strategy in october because , obviously , what we want is for that to inform what that final strategy looks like . so , we 'll be looking probably early autumn for them to report back on that . dr frank atherton: the second point of your question about what are the essential elements , i mean , they are already there ; we need to tweak them and we need to make sure that they 're properly delivered . but it 's a tiered approach , so , having access to information through schools and through communities and into families is part of the first step of that . and then , if children are overweight , it 's a question about how they 're identified . there are questions about the ability of the public to recognise large children , so there may be an issue there . but when children are running into issues around weight , what kind of interventions can be put in , either through primary care or through communities through health visitors , et cetera ? and then of course we do have—and we 've started to shine a light on this , have n't we—the very overweight children . i do n't think we have enough in the way of targeted support to be able to support those . there are programmes available , but they 're perhaps not universally provided . so , i think there 's something about looking at our whole pathway , mapping out what the current evidence now shows us is needed , and then thinking about what is our provision in wales and what do we need to do to bring that up to the level of the places that are the best . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . the draft plan recognises the importance of the first 1,000 days , but it does n't appear to include any new proposals to help parents to enable lifestyle changes . it lists existing initiatives , such as the healthy child wales programme and breastfeeding action plan . are you satisfied that the draft plan does enough to address the influence that family and parents have on children 's healthy weight behaviours , particularly in the first 1,000 days ? dr frank atherton: well , the first 1,000 days are really critically in shaping lives , as i 'm sure you 'd agree . we are absolutely open to any other suggestions that the public or this committee have as to what more we can and should do . there are a number of things , the sorts of programmes you 've mentioned , that i think could be more effective . we 're currently looking at breastfeeding because it starts before birth , actually . we know that children who are breastfed are less likely to suffer from obesity in childhood and , indeed , to go on to be obese adults . so , we do need to go further on that . we do have some programmes—healthy working wales , et cetera—that need to be improved . if there are other interventions in other areas that we need to take , then we 'd be delighted to hear what they are , but those are the ones that have jumped out so far . nathan cook: can i just say— ? one of the proposals we 're looking for is , obviously , we know that during pregnancy it 's a really critical time when we can actually look to work with mothers . we know from looking at some of the behaviour change that it 's actually a really critical point when new mothers really start thinking about their lives , wanting the best for their child and their families . so , what we are thinking about is how we could develop some kind of approaches to that going forward . but we know our healthy start scheme is also a good lever for us , just in terms of how we can look to improve that kind of dietary offer at the earliest stage as well . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . finally , we know that for some families day-to-day challenges can make it difficult for them to make healthy choices , particularly for those on lower incomes and/or maybe using food banks . could the welsh government take bolder action to better support low-income families to eat healthily ? dr frank atherton: well , you 've touched on a really important point about inequalities because overweight and obesity is not evenly distributed across our population . it absolutely is more prevalent in more socioeconomically deprived communities , and that 's something that should really concern us all . so , it gets you to questions of availability of fresh food and produce ; it gets you to questions of formulation of products and whether value brands are less healthy than more premium brands . so , it cuts across all of those issues that we talked about in terms of settings and in terms of environment earlier . there is something about the affordability of good-quality healthy food that we need to think about . we do need to think in broad terms—broader terms than just obesity , but we do need to think in broad terms—about how we create a society where families have the wherewithal to lead healthy lives , and that gets you to really important questions about the minimum wage and income poverty . there 's no doubt in my mind—i 'm a public health professional—and there 's no doubt in my mind that economic success and health success go hand in hand . so , you speak to a very deep question there . in terms of what we can do through this particular consultation , there are some things in there about providing better access , but without tackling some of those deeper determinants of health , their impact will necessarily be limited . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: just finally from me , then , you referred earlier to the importance of making every contact count , but some stakeholders have told the committee that they struggle to do that because of difficulties in availability of people to refer to . is that a situation that you recognise and what , really , can we do to improve that situation ? dr frank atherton: well , it depends what you mean as to where to refer to . so , the health system obviously needs to respond to this issue . what we 're seeing across the nhs is a gradual transformation in primary care so that primary care is no longer about going to see your gp , it 's about going to see a practice where you have a range of health professionals . would i like to see more dietetic support , for example , in that setting ? absolutely i would . i think we need to think in terms of that pathway that we were talking about earlier , about access to that kind of advice and support , which can head off people getting into problems and kids getting into problems with weight issues . so , that question of redesign of the pathway really speaks to , i think , your point about , 'well , where do people go when they have problems with their weight ? ' that 's true for adults and it 's true for children as well . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . are there any other questions from members ? no . okay . well , can i thank you both very much for your attendance ? it 's been a really productive session . we appreciate your time . you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy in due course , but thank you again . dr frank atherton: we 'll do that . thank you , chair , and thank you to the committee , because getting some input into the consultation from children 's perspectives , this would be one of the routes we would absolutely welcome . thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much . item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the welsh health specialised services committee on camhs tier 4 provision . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for health and social services also on camhs in-patient provision . paper to note 3 is a letter from the children commissioner for wales on tier 4 camhs provision . paper to note 4 is a letter from qualifications wales to the minister for education on qualifications for the new curriculum . paper to note 5 is a letter from me to the minister for education on the development of the new curriculum . paper to note 6 is a letter from me to the minister for education seeking clarification on the draft additional learning needs code . paper to note 7 is a letter from me to the minister for education seeking clarification on the response to our brexit report . paper to note 8 is a letter from the equality and human rights commission on a cumulative impact assessment briefing for committee , which has been offered . paper to note 9 is a letter from the chair of the petitions committee on a national taskforce for children ’ s mental health . paper to note 10 is a letter to the secretary of state for exiting the european union from the children ’ s commissioners for england , scotland , wales and northern ireland on the implications of brexit for children . there are a few that i 'd like to return to in private , but are members happy to note those ? thank you . okay . item 4 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? suzy davies am: yes . there 's somebody up there . lynne neagle am: thank you .

having a target is more of its deliverability than just having it according to dr frank atherton . since there had been not that successful examples , dr frank atherton considered that they must balance deliverability with challenge . also , dr frank atherton thought a target was one tool in the box that they could use , but moreover , an evaluation which could help them know where they are was very needed . at the same time , there was still a lot to achieve .

what did dr frank atherton say about investment ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from michelle brown and jack sargeant ; there are no substitutions . can i ask if members have any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . we 'll move on , then , to item 2 , which is our scrutiny of the 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' draft strategy , and i 'm very pleased to welcome dr frank atherton , the chief medical officer for wales , and nathan cook , who is the head of the healthy and active branch at welsh government . thank you , both , for attending this morning . we 're very much looking forward to hearing what you 've got to say . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions . if i can just start by asking about the fact that 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' is an all-age strategy , really , and how confident you are that it will deliver for children and young people . dr frank atherton: well , we 're very confident . i mean , it has to , quite clearly . we do need to think about the present generation , the problems faced by the current generation . we have high prevalence of overweight and obesity among adults—we know that , and we ca n't walk away from that because that 's translating into demand on health services . but we have to take a focus , a future generation 's focus , almost , on the next generation . i do n't write off the current generation , we ca n't afford to do that , but we do need to think about what can we do that would be different for the next generation so that they do n't get into the sorts of problems that we 're currently seeing with overweight and obesity . we know that the consequences of that for our young people are going to be enormous if we do n't do something and something quite soon . we know that overweight children go on to become overweight adults , unfortunately , and that brings all the consequences of multiple disease issues—diabetes is often cited—cancer risk et cetera . so , we have to focus on children , and , in fact , during the consultation , we 've been very clear that we need to engage with children and young people as well . perhaps we 'll get into that at some point , chair , but , yes , i can give you that assurance . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . what my follow-up question , really , is : can you just tell us what kind of engagement you 've had with children and young people to inform the draft strategy ? dr frank atherton: well , nathan may be able to influence some of the detail , but in broad terms , we have discussed with young people in a number of fora . in fact , i was delighted that we had a young person , evie morgan , a schoolgirl from mid wales , who came to the joint launch on the consultation . she met the minister there and gave a very good personal account of her views on obesity and overweight . we 've been visiting a number of schools during the consultation process . i 'm visiting a school , either this week or next week , at treorchy , to talk with teachers and young people there . obviously , we 're hopeful that schools and young people will contribute to the consultation as well . so , we 've had quite good input , i would say , from children and young people . there is always more we can do we and we want to hear those voices . nathan cook: i was going to say , we 've also had a session with youth ambassadors as well , and what we 've actually produced for the consultation is not just the children and young people 's version , but also a toolkit in terms of getting schools really engaged and involved in terms of the work that we want them to do to feed into this as well . so , we 've already had some really good responses from a lot of youth group and schools already . lynne neagle am: and you 've got a structured programme , have you , to roll that out ? okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on leadership , and the first questions are from siân gwenllian . sian gwenllian am: good morning . i 'll be speaking in welsh . the minister for health said yesterday , in answering a question from me on the chamber floor , that you gave him advice not to have a target in terms of reducing obesity among children . could you confirm that that 's what your advice was and tell us why you do n't think that a target is needed ? dr frank atherton: my advice was not that we do n't need a target—we may well need a target , and that 's one of the issues we need to consult on—but that the target that had been adopted in england and in scotland to halve the prevalence of obesity in children was more aspirational than deliverable , and that if we are to choose a target in wales , then we need to balance deliverability with challenge . we need a challenging environment . so , there is something about performance management , because i would be looking to not just the health system but the health and care system and to public services boards to think about how they 're delivering on this , and i think we can use targets to that . but they are one tool in the box that i would think we could use , and part of the consultation is to ask that question—'if we are to go down a route in wales of choosing a target , what might that look like ? ' sian gwenllian am: okay . so , to be clear , you 're not ruling out that maybe we would need a target . dr frank atherton: it 's certainly something that we could consider in terms of the final strategy . sian gwenllian am: and is that your opinion too ? nathan cook: yes . sian gwenllian am: okay . well , that is contrary to what i was told yesterday on the floor of the chamber by the minister , but there we go . i 'm glad to hear that you 're not ruling out having a target , because without a target , without something to aim for , how do we know that we 're getting there ? dr frank atherton: i think your point about evaluation is really important . whatever we produce at the end of this process—and we 're looking to produce a final strategy towards the autumn—we do need to have a strong evaluation . so , some metrics in there , it would seem , would be appropriate , but what those are , what the nature of those are , do we frame them as targets or ambitions—that 's the point we need to consult on . sian gwenllian am: okay . and the other point , of course , is the investment . if the government is going to be successful in terms of the aim of reducing childhood obesity , then it needs to fund and support the actions . have you made an assessment of the level of investment needed to implement this plan ? dr frank atherton: resourcing will be important . we currently do make investments in a number of areas that relate to child health generally , and , of course , obesity and overweight in particular . so , the question of resourcing is important . now , we ca n't quantify an absolute amount of resource that will be needed to deliver until we know exactly what 's going to come out of the consultation and what actions we might want to deliver to a greater degree in wales . a figure of £8 million to £10 million a year has been banded around as a broad kind of area of what we might need to invest , but that would need to be drawn from existing programmes . we need to look at existing programmes , how effective they are . can we make them more effective ? can we get better value from them ? and there may well be a case for new investment , and that 's a question , of course , that would need to be discussed with ministers when we 're producing the final strategy . nathan cook: but i think a key consideration as well is we already know there is investment across health boards in some kind of obesity-related services . so , i think what we really need to think about across wales is how we can drive greater scale , how we can look at current programmes in terms of making sure that they 're better evaluated , and how we can make sure that we 're also drawing up on the existing resources and capacity out there as well . sian gwenllian am: and does the level of investment depend on what the target is—what the goal is ? dr frank atherton: i do n't think you can necessarily just link the two . the issue of resourcing is one that 's there irrespective of whether we choose to put a target in place . sian gwenllian am: but how would we know that it 's being used effectively if there is n't something to aim for ? dr frank atherton: which brings you back to the question about evaluation . we need proper evaluation of the various programmes that we have . sian gwenllian am: yes , but without a target , how can you properly evaluate ? if you do n't know what you 're trying to do , how can you properly evaluate ? anyway , you 're open to suggestions about having a target , which is great . would you agree that government could use the revenue that 's being produced through the levy on soft drinks towards some of these efforts to— ? dr frank atherton: well , of course , there are some consequentials that are coming to the welsh government as part of the levy on sugary soft drinks . that funding , of course , is less than we had anticipated , and that reflects , actually , a success story because industry is reformulating , and so the amount of sugar in soft drinks is already starting to decrease , which is a good thing . but to your question : should we use the funding ? well , of course we should use funding . i 'm not personally in favour of hypothecation , i think i 'm more interested in the totality of resource that goes into public health programmes than into marginal resource . there are , of course , a number of initiatives that we currently fund through the general revenue . and when i think about obesity , i do n't just think about the relatively small marginal amounts of money that come in through whatever source , but i think about the totality of the £7 billion we spend in health and social care and how we can divert and channel some of that towards broad prevention initiatives in general , and towards tackling being overweight and obesity in particular . sian gwenllian am: you 're saying that it 's less than expected . could you give us any kind of figure ? dr frank atherton: i 'm sorry , could you repeat the question ? sian gwenllian am: you say that there is less money that 's come in through these consequentials from the levy , can you mention some sort of figure ? dr frank atherton: the figure that i have in mind is about £56 million that 's coming in in terms of revenue over a two-year period . but i 'd have to confirm that with the committee . what the anticipated— . when the sugar levy was first brought in , there was some modelling at uk level about what level of revenue that would bring , but it was based on the amount of sugar that was currently then in drinks and the fact that the sugar has reduced in drinks , i mean , the total amount available to the uk is less and hence our consequentials are less . nathan may have some precise figures . nathan cook: yes , i was going to say , there was a mid-year report done where the levy has raised £150 million to date since coming into force in april , and the original forecast was £520 million a year . so , i think that shows the amount of work that 's been done by industry around reformulation . sian gwenllian am: and the consequentials of that ? that is the consequential—£150 million . nathan cook: on a uk level . sian gwenllian am: yes , so what 's the welsh consequential ? lynne neagle am: fifty-six . sian gwenllian am: fifty-six ? gosh , that sounds a lot . anyway , it 's a good sum of money and you 're talking about investing £8 million to £10 million . so , obviously , you know , we can be more ambitious because there is money in that pot if that money was ring-fenced for this particular scheme . dr frank atherton: well , the resource is going to be a real issue that we need to address , and i think as nathan has said , there is funding of various initiatives currently in the system , and we need to look at that and make that as effective as possible . will there be a need for some additional resource ? there may well be , and that 's a question that we 'll have to look at in terms of the strategy when we develop it and have a discussion with ministers about the level of resourcing . lynne neagle am: can i just ask on that before siân moves on ? what assessment have you made of how that money is being spent in other uk nations ? because my understanding is that the money is being used in other uk nations to directly impact on obesity . have you given any consideration to— ? as i understand it , that money now is being dispersed around a plethora of programmes , including the transformation programme , and what i found very odd , really , was vaccination , which is surely the core business of the nhs . have you got any view on that ? dr frank atherton: i 'm not sure i understand your point , chair , in terms of the link between the consequentials from— . are you talking about the consequentials from the sugar levy or are you talking about— ? lynne neagle am: yes , because in other nations , it is being used to directly impact on initiatives to tackle obesity , whereas , we 've kind of put it here in wales into the general pot and it 's being used to fund a plethora of different things . dr frank atherton: well , that cuts to what i was talking about . my preference—it 's a personal view—is that hypothecation does n't really help us too much . i mean , what we need to look at is whether the programmes , the sorts of programmes that are being funded in england , or indeed in scotland , are working effectively , and if they are , are they being delivered here in wales ? we have looked very carefully at the plans that england and scotland have for tackling obesity and overweight , and we 've made a comparison with what we 're doing in wales , and our ambition in wales is to go further than those nations , in many ways . but i come back to the point that just linking the hypothecation of a relatively small amount of resource is likely to be less impactful than asking a question of public services boards and of the health system , indeed , about how much money , overall , are we putting into prevention . lynne neagle am: no , i recognise that , and i think we 're talking about additional resource . suzy . suzy davies am: i was just wondering whether you thought that there was a useful psychological link on the part of the public between saying , 'here 's a sugar levy ' , and 'it 's going to be used to help children and adults stay healthier . ' going into a pot , it actually makes it quite difficult to explain the purpose of the tax in the first place . so , i take your overall point , but in terms of the people who we 're trying to help in all this , actually creating a direct link might be quite helpful . dr frank atherton: you may be right . i 'm not a behavioural psychologist . we 'd have to ask— suzy davies am: neither am i. i 'm a person who eats a lot of sugar . [ laughter . ] dr frank atherton: your point 's taken . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: thanks . siân . sian gwenllian am: the last question from me , about partnership working . you 're putting an emphasis on the whole-system approach in implementing the plan , how are you going to create a system that co-ordinates action and drives change across relevant partners , avoiding a situation where it 's everyone 's role , but nobody 's responsibility ? how are you going to avoid that ? dr frank atherton: it 's a very important question , and one of the four strands in the consultation is exactly related to that , around leadership and drive nationally . i 'm not interested in producing a strategy that sits on a shelf . if you look around the world , there are plenty of obesity strategies . you may notice , by the way , that we 've chosen not to talk about an obesity strategy but a healthy weight strategy , because i think having a positive construct is really quite important to us here in wales . but leadership will be really important , and we will need some sort of structure to lead this , to provide oversight . i 'm not a great believer in creating new structures , so we do need something that will give that drive , but the leadership comes from the top down . we need political commitment to this , and that 's why i welcome the input from this committee . so , that needs to be assured . and then we need to make sure that the public sector generally is engaged in this , but it goes way beyond the public sector , of course , because we have to work with industry , and we have to work with communities , and we have to work with the public on this . so we need to think about our governance system for this and how we drive it forward . interestingly , we had quite a large discussion two days ago between health and social care , but also involving the third sector and some members of the public , around how can we drive prevention more generally . it was n't specifically on obesity , but of course obesity came up because it 's such a pressing issue . this question of governance was discussed quite extensively , and we do have governance systems , of course , in wales . we have public services boards , we have regional partnership boards , and how we can get those aligned behind this common agenda is really important . but i 'd like to see—and i know i 'm a public health professional , so i know that only maybe 10 per cent , 15 per cent , possibly 20 per cent of what makes and keeps us healthy as individuals and as communities can be driven through the health system ; but i would like the system to step up and take these kinds of issues more seriously as well . so i 'd be looking for local leadership through directors of public health and indeed through chief executives to work with their public services boards on this . so , we 'll need some sort of national oversight , absolutely , but we need local ownership and local leadership , too . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 've got some questions now from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . delivery of the plan will be led by a national implementation board that will be accountable to ministers . which minister do you believe it should be accountable to , or , given the complexity of obesity , should the board be directly accountable to the first minister ? dr frank atherton: ultimately , the first minister will be responsible for this and will want to have a strong oversight of this . it is often framed as a health issue , and the minister , vaughan gething , has a strong personal commitment to this , i know . we 've talked extensively with him and with sports and recreation colleagues about that , so there 's a link there . it does cut across all portfolios , and so this is an issue that i have discussed with cabinet , and that collective ownership is really important , and will be , because it ca n't just sit in one domain . i think what you do need to have is you do need to have a lead organisation or a lead ministry , and i would see health as—i work within health , so i 'm perhaps biased , but i would see health as leading this , but it needs broad ownership across government . janet finch-saunders am: i know my colleague siân gwenllian mentioned earlier targets and things , but i know in wales we 're not too good at collecting data . what data is currently available on childhood obesity and what metrics will be used to measure progress against the plan 's objectives ? dr frank atherton: well , of course , our main data source is the child measurement programme , which collects information on children entering school aged four or five . that 's our main source of information . if we look at that data , it shows us— . well , i 'm sure you 're familiar with the statistics , but it 'll be just under a third of children at that age who are overweight or obese— janet finch-saunders am: could i just ask—sorry to interrupt—how up to date is that ? dr frank atherton: the last survey was just last year . nathan cook: the data was published last week . dr frank atherton: yes , the lastest data was out last week . janet finch-saunders am: it is pretty up to date . dr frank atherton: so , it 's pretty up to date , and what it shows— . it 's not getting radically worse—there 's always statistical variation in these things—but it 's not getting any better . and , for the first time last year , we did look at the question not just of children who were overweight or obese , but we actually singled out the proportion who are obese , severely obese . so we have a figure for that for the first time , which is about 12 per cent , which is quite shocking , in a way . janet finch-saunders am: it is shocking . dr frank atherton: so , that 's our main source of information . does that answer your question ? janet finch-saunders am: yes , but how will any gaps in your data be addressed ? dr frank atherton: well , one of the questions that are often asked is : could we measure more on a longitudinal basis ? by that i mean in england , for example , children are measured at school entry and then again at year 11—at age 11 or 12. , that kind of age group . and so you do have a longitudinal view over time of what 's happening to children . i think that would be helpful to us in wales , and it 's one of the questions in the consultation about whether we should expand that . obviously , that would have significant resource implications , not just for the funding , but also for schools and for the system to deliver it . but it 's something that maybe would help us in terms of better understanding and better evaluation—the point that was made earlier . nathan cook: and the other data we do have is the millennium cohort study , which has been released , for 14 and 15-year-olds . that 's going to be— . we 're starting to think about how we can utilise some of that data , looking at that longitudinal picture around children as well , which will be really helpful . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . you 've answered my next question . thank you . lynne neagle am: can i just ask about the child measurement programme ? the strategy commits to looking at whether we can have a second measurement taking place in wales . can you just tell us a bit more about your thinking on that and when you would see a second measurement taking place and how you would use that data ? dr frank atherton: i touched on that just now , but personally i do think it would be helpful to have more information . it 's always the case , there 's always a trade-off between the cost of getting that information and the value of the information . so , the question of how it would be used would be really important . there is still a lot that we do n't know . we know an awful lot about obesity and being overweight and the causes of it , but we do n't really have a very clear understanding , in wales at least , of the point at which children start to become overweight . although we know that overweight children tend to go on to become overweight adults , we do n't know what proportion of them between school entry and later teenage years—what those changes are . so , it would help us to have some better understanding , which would help to direct some of our initiatives . i 'd be generally supportive of the principle . we 'll wait and see what comes out in the consultation , and it 's something that we need to give thought to , but we do have to trade off the additionality of what the information would give us with the cost of doing that , of course . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on healthy environments from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . in the draft plan , some of the measures in there suggest legislating for restricting price promotions and banning energy drinks , and that sort of thing . do you think that , if we go down that road , there 's going to be time within this assembly to introduce such legislation ? and , if not , what do you think might be the timescale for such legislation ? dr frank atherton: it may well be that there are things in wales that we might wish to legislate on , and you 've mentioned two of them , and they 're good examples . we would , obviously , need to undertake quite detailed consultation on those and , in a way , we need to mirror what 's happening in england and in scotland to some degree around the consultations they 're having on energy drinks . we also need to influence the issues that are not devolved to us and we seek to do that . as to your question of legislative time , i 'm not really in a position to answer that . what i could say is that legislation may well be one of the outcomes of the consultation . there may well be things that we wish to choose to legislate on . the timing of that will have to be subject to other pressures , and i come back to the point that legislation , of course , is one of the tools that we 've got—we need to deploy them all . dawn bowden am: sure , i understand that , that you could do other things . i know— . we 've heard from the government , on other calls for legislation , that the programme 's very tight , certainly for this term , so i was just wondering whether we might get that in , but okay . if i turn now to the planning system—and this might not be something that you have great deal of knowledge of ; i 'd just welcome your view on this , because , when we discussed with stakeholders , we talked about whether the planning system , for instance , could be used to , as an example , restrict hot food takeaways around schools and so on . would that be a measure that you would support , something like that ? dr frank atherton: i think it 's definitely something we want to look at and , of course , that question is asked in the consultation , so we would like to know people 's views on that . it 's an interesting one . i think there is a question—a really important question—about how we can use the planning system more effectively . i 've discussed with nathan on a number of occasions , with planning colleagues in welsh government and in local authorities , about the art of the possible , let 's say . there may be things that we could think about and we want to get those ideas through the consultation . the specific question around takeaways , particularly takeaways near schools , is often asked . i was very interested to see , up in the north-east , some time ago , that one of the local authorities up there did put a moratorium on the opening of new fast-food venues near to schools , or indeed in areas where levels of obesity and overweight were particularly high . i understand london is now—some london boroughs are now—experimenting with that as well . so , that gave me comfort , because maybe there are powers within local authorities that can be used more effectively . i think my view at the moment is that the jury 's kind of out on whether those are effective and how effective they 're going to be . but the fact that we have some initiatives around the uk does give us an opportunity to study that and to learn from experience perhaps and then , if it is shown to be beneficial , to think about that here in wales , yes . dawn bowden am: sure , because it will only be one of a suite of measures anyway . of itself , it would n't address the problem , but , added to other initiatives , i guess it would . can i just ask you briefly , then , about community sport infrastructure and , in particular , of new schools ? so , welsh government , as you know , has ploughed a huge amount of money into the twenty-first century schools programme . what we heard when we spoke to stakeholders recently , particularly headteachers , was that , in some of the new schools that have been built , we have n't had changing rooms and toilet facilities , for instance , built into the new buildings . so , if we 're going to try and utilise these buildings for general community activity to get kids and the wider public , actually , more active , do you think that 's something that we ought to be building in ? again , not your particular direct area of responsibility , but something that you might have an input into , is that , when we 're developing schools , we should be making sure that they have those kinds of facilities so that they become accessible to the wider public . is that something that you would be prepared to make a recommendation around ? dr frank atherton: well , it 's certainly a fascinating area and one that i think has a lot of potential . it goes— . you 're right to raise it in the context of schools , and i can understand why this committee would , but i think it goes beyond that , actually , into all developments in the public sector and how they 're developed and whether we 're building health into our environment , which perhaps is your starting point . one of the things that i was really pleased to see in terms of the public health ( wales ) act 2017 that was passed a couple of years ago was the use of health impact assessment as a tool , and we 're still working on how that will inform policy and how that will be applied in issues such as policy decisions through government , but also in more downstream issues about how we create the public infrastructure that the public can and should be using . and so i would like to see the use of health impact assessments to a much greater degree to inform those kinds of decisions . if you apply that kind of lens and you take the point , which is inherent in your question , i think , that schools are not just for kids , they 're for communities , then you would—it would lead you to a conclusion that you would perhaps design and build them in a different way . so , on a personal basis , i would certainly support your view that we should be looking to use the sports environment in schools in the same way as we use leisure centres . there are all kinds of barriers in there , and i understand all of that , and it 's not really my field , exactly as you say , but , as a matter of principle , i think it 's a good one to pursue . dawn bowden am: okay . thank you . and widening it out to other public services buildings as well . dr frank atherton: indeed . dawn bowden am: yes . okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 're going to move on now to talk about how we create healthy settings . i 've got some questions from suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you very much . yes , perhaps if we could just stay in this area of education just for a moment , i think we all agree that healthy habits acquired early on probably tend to last quite well , so i wonder if you can tell us a little bit about the healthy and sustainable preschool scheme and whether you think some timescales should be made public about what you expect the achievements from that scheme to be . but , in particular , i was struck with what you said about local leadership , and i just want you to bear that in mind in answering the next question , which is about the foundation phase . you 're probably aware that this committee has heard from various school leaders that they 're struggling in some cases to meet the ratio of staffing for the foundation phase , which potentially compromises the purpose of it in terms of physical activity . i 'm just wondering how the strategy development board is considering that at the moment . is it something that 's come on the radar for the board ? is it something you 're thinking about ? and , if so , who do you think should be responsible for pinning that down a little bit ? because this is education , not health , and— . dr frank atherton: well , look , i 've got to confess to you , i 'm not an educationist , and so the question on staffing numbers in schools is not one that i have been asked to give a deal of consideration to , and it has n't really been discussed , i do n't believe , in the context of development of the strategy . if there is a specific point around that that the committee would like to make in terms of a response into the consultation , which i presume you 'll be making , then we 'd be happy to consider that . as to healthy preschools , i do n't know , nathan may have some view on that . i 've not been closely involved with the work . we have standards and we perhaps need to think about how we tighten those standards and how we—enforce is n't the right word , but how we implement and make sure that those standards are properly implemented , because you 're absolutely right to say that habits are developed early in life . that 's in the preschool ; it 's also in the home of course , and then later in the school . so , we do need to look at all of those as settings and are there more things we can do within those settings to drive healthier behaviours—that 's exactly why we need the consultation . nathan cook: but i would say , through that scheme as well , we 've really got a really good bank of preschools that are actually doing some really great work in this area as well . so , i think the more we can understand the successes that some of those environments are having—you know , how we can roll those out and work across other settings to create that wider impact as well is going to be really important . suzy davies am: okay . thank you . what i 'm thinking about is expectations at that level will be expectations at a slightly older level , which will be contained within the foundation phase . and while you 're quite right—obviously , parents have a role in this , or families—there will be , particularly with the introduction of the new curriculum , certain expectations on schools to provide not just healthy environments but to actively work towards well-being and healthy weight in children and things . and that 's why i asked you about local leadership , because , if it fails for reasons that have nothing to do with the plan at foundation phase , it 's going to fail further up the school years as well . i think it might be something that the board might want to consider here , because at some point there 'll be an accountability question and we will want to know how 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' fits in with the new plans for the new curriculum , and whether it 's merely persuasive and influential or whether it has the weight to place some obligations on school leaders about what they do in their schools . so , this connection , i think , is quite an important one , and , if the strategy development board could consider that , i think it would be very helpful , because this does n't exist in a vacuum . dr frank atherton: well , i 'd certainly be delighted to take that back and we can look at it in terms of how we move from the consultation into the final strategy . it 's certainly a point we can try and look at . suzy davies am: because we will want to know who to ask : 'you 're the accountable person—why has something worked , or not worked ? ' we will need to know that at some point . dr frank atherton: just building on nathan 's point , some of the schools—i know it 's schools rather than the preschools , and i take your point , but some of the schools we 've been working with have absolutely brilliant models of good practice and good local leadership . i remember the minister actually at the launch , and one of the schools was represented there , and they presented—the school came and some of the children came and presented—to the whole audience about the activities that they were undertaking in their school around physical activity and on healthy eating , and it was such a model of good behaviour the question was , 'well , why not everywhere ? ' , so that probably speaks to your question . suzy davies am: okay , well , thank you for that commitment anyway . lynne neagle am: and have you had any discussions , then , with education officials around things like teacher training and cpd , because you 'll be aware the health and social care committee has made a number of recommendations in this area ? it 's crucial that we skill up the staff to develop these things in an appropriate way , is n't it ? dr frank atherton: well , we certainly discuss with education colleagues in welsh government . there 's more we need to do in terms of that , because you 're absolutely right : there 's something about building the whole of the workforce—education is really important , but elsewhere as well ; it 's about how do we really make every contact count , you know , that construct . so , everybody who 's working in the health and social care system should have a role in this ; everybody who works in education , whether it 's the old— . do we still have dinner ladies ? or teachers , you know , they have a role to play in supporting children to be as healthy as they possibly can . and , actually , i see them , chair , as a really essential part of the public health workforce . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . suzy , are you going to do your curriculum one ? suzy davies am: well , i 've bound it in together , but that final point you make about teachers being part of the answer to this , they 're already under a range of pressures : is it fair to make them accountable for whether this works or not ? or should that local leadership lie somewhere else ? i do n't expect you to pin down a person today . dr frank atherton: i would n't like to blame a teacher or performance manage them on the proportion of their children in their class who are overweight . that would clearly be nonsense , would n't it ? but they are part of the solution , and so the accountability lies further up the chain , does n't it ? the question i think we would have , and public services boards might well ask , and the local education authorities may well ask , is : how effective is any particular school at driving forwards these healthy behaviours ? suzy davies am: okay , thank you . i 'll leave some questions for hefin . lynne neagle am: hefin . hefin david am: is that all right , chair ? lynne neagle am: you 've got the floor , hefin . hefin david am: thank you , chair . you make a commitment to embedding physical activity at an early stage in primary school education . what would that look like ? dr frank atherton: just in terms of the physical activity , i have to say it 's a really important dimension and we need to move further on . we know not enough of our children are physically active and they 're not meeting the various guidelines , so it 's really important . it does n't actually have as much of an impact on weight as the dietary issue . i 'd just say that . it 's really important for all sorts of reasons . it does have an impact on healthy weight , but it has a huge impact in terms of socialisation , in terms of mental health issues , et cetera , you know . so—i 'm sorry , i 've lost track of your question . nathan cook: i 'd just say that one thing we have got in train is , obviously , sport wales , public health wales and natural resources wales—we have them working together as a collaborative at the moment to look at how their joint delivery on physical activity can be taken forward more efficiently . so , one of the things they are looking at is obviously the schools programmes they do through eco-schools , the welsh network of healthy schools and the sports programme to really think about that physical activity and how we can have better join up in terms of the programmes that we 're already delivering as well . hefin david am: with that in mind , i 'm going to confess to you , chief medical officer , i did anything in school i could to avoid physical education lessons . i hated it . i did n't feel engaged with it . yet , two weeks ago , i played for the assembly rugby team—i wanted to get that in . the school sports survey , that would suggest that we 're still not hitting those targets with children . how can we get children more engaged with physical education in ways that— ? i felt completely alienated in school . dr frank atherton: well , you 're right , and many people go through that same journey and come to physical activity later in life , and that 's great if they do that . the sad reality is that many people do n't , and we also know that there are issues around the dropping off , particularly for girls , of physical activity towards the teenage years . so , there are specific moments that we need to understand . we do have a lot of information about these kinds of things . public health wales is very good at collating the information . we do need to turn that into programmes . i mean , at the heart of it , it 's about making sports and physical activity enjoyable and attractive to people . sometimes that 's easier , i sense , for boys than for girls , but we need to tailor things to different audiences . hefin david am: yes , that 's the trick , is n't it ? it 's about finding out what children enjoy doing . that could be quite a wide and varied range of things . is that the key ? dawn bowden am: it 's not all about organised team sports . hefin david am: yes . as dawn said , it 's not just about organised team sports . there are some very individual activities you could do . dr frank atherton: absolutely , yes . and that 's where i think— . i 'm delighted that sport wales has moved beyond . it 's not just about elite sports ; it 's about getting everybody engaged and active in sports , and that partnership with public health wales that nathan talked about is really important , because we need a population approach to driving physical activity . hefin david am: so , do you think , with that in mind , we need statutory guidance for schools on physical education ? dr frank atherton: again , i 'd look to the consultation as to whether there was an appetite for any kind of guidance . it may well be that that is something that could be considered . hefin david am: okay . and finally , with regard to free school meals to all pupils in primary and secondary schools , do you think that extending that to all pupils would be beneficial in providing a more varied diet for pupils ? dr frank atherton: i do n't have a personal view on that . i think it 's the quality of the food that kids are getting , whether that comes from home or through school , and whether it 's free or whether it 's paid for . i think it 's the quality of the food that we need to focus on . the question of children being hungry at school is a really important one and needs to be addressed at a national level . i think that 's a— hefin david am: so , you think that 's more about the provision of food for those who might not have access to it than providing a varied diet . dr frank atherton: i think it 's important that children have access to food , absolutely , if that 's your question , but we also need to look at the quality of the food and what 's in that food offer . hefin david am: but you do n't necessarily think universal provision would— . dr frank atherton: i do n't have a clear view on that . i know there 's a larger debate about that . hefin david am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: i 've got some supplementaries from janet and then suzy . janet finch-saunders am: yes . i 've been around some amazing schools in my own constituency , where they 've got proper canteen facilities for pupils and really , really good produce in the meals . however , there 's probably only a third having school meals ; the rest are packed lunches . and , to be honest , i 've been very surprised and shocked at what i 've seen of the quality of the food in the packed lunches . nobody can really police , and i would n't want to see parents being policed over what goes in a packed lunch , so if there is data out there to suggest that there 's a larger percentage of parents providing packed lunched that are really not good at all , then there is some merit to be said for what hefin is— . me , personally , i 'd love to see the introduction of universal school meals . i think it 's been a very retrograde step , going backwards . would you be willing to carry out any research ? dr frank atherton: so , i mean , your point about food that 's brought in in the packed lunches is a really important one , and i 've talked to some headteachers as well about this . we could go down a route of guidance and prohibition , but that gets you into the role of nanny in chief and i do n't really see that as my role or government 's role , and i do n't think it 's effective either . do you remember— ? you must have seen on tv—i think it was in scotland ; i do n't know if it 's happened in wales—parents pushing the fish and chip packets through the school railings . we do n't need to get into that . what i have seen , though , is some really good innovative practice in schools where , for example , they reward children for bringing the healthy options . schools can give guidance to parents about what would be a healthy lunch and what sort of things might be expected to be seen in the lunch box . and you can reward children , and children do respond to rewards . so , i 've seen some of those approaches that have transformed , actually , the offer of what comes in school boxes . but i think just banning chocolate bars and crisps in the packed lunch is unlikely to be successful . janet finch-saunders am: we ca n't do that . so , my point to the question was : is n't there some merit , perhaps , about all children being equal and eating similar good-quality food in schools ? dr frank atherton: yes . that gets you back to the question about universal school meals . janet finch-saunders am: perhaps some of that £56 million sugar tax , even . who knows ? lynne neagle am: suzy . suzy davies am: yes . mine is just a short question . the draft plan commits , does n't it , to updating the healthy eating in schools regulations—the 2013 regulations ? i appreciate this is a consultation , but what is it that needs changing in those regulations at the moment , just to give us a bit of steer ? nathan cook: it 's mainly on sugar content , so , obviously , they do n't adhere to current scientific advisory committee on nutrition guidelines around sugar levels . so , what we 'd want to consider is , you know , what we need to be careful of is unintended consequences of changing that , as well , if you see a shift to more kids bringing in school packed lunches as well . so , i think we want to consider the best way of doing that and consider through the consultation how we can go about it . suzy davies am: all right . so , it 's very pertinent to janet 's question , in that way . okay , so it 's mainly about sugar , but it could be about other things as well . okay . thanks . lynne neagle am: okay . the next questions are from janet anyway ; firstly , on the clinical obesity pathway . janet finch-saunders am: the 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' plan commits to a review of the clinical obesity pathway . what are the time frames for this review , and what do you think are the basic essentials of a clinical obesity pathway for children and young people ? dr frank atherton: we do have a pathway for managing overweight , and that 's been in place since about 2010 , i believe , and we do need to bring that up to date in terms of current knowledge and experiences . we 've challenged public health wales ; we 've asked public health wales to undertake a review of that pathway , and they are going through that process now . i 'm not sure of exactly the time frame that we have given them for that . nathan cook: we were asking them to review the pathway before we launch the final strategy in october because , obviously , what we want is for that to inform what that final strategy looks like . so , we 'll be looking probably early autumn for them to report back on that . dr frank atherton: the second point of your question about what are the essential elements , i mean , they are already there ; we need to tweak them and we need to make sure that they 're properly delivered . but it 's a tiered approach , so , having access to information through schools and through communities and into families is part of the first step of that . and then , if children are overweight , it 's a question about how they 're identified . there are questions about the ability of the public to recognise large children , so there may be an issue there . but when children are running into issues around weight , what kind of interventions can be put in , either through primary care or through communities through health visitors , et cetera ? and then of course we do have—and we 've started to shine a light on this , have n't we—the very overweight children . i do n't think we have enough in the way of targeted support to be able to support those . there are programmes available , but they 're perhaps not universally provided . so , i think there 's something about looking at our whole pathway , mapping out what the current evidence now shows us is needed , and then thinking about what is our provision in wales and what do we need to do to bring that up to the level of the places that are the best . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . the draft plan recognises the importance of the first 1,000 days , but it does n't appear to include any new proposals to help parents to enable lifestyle changes . it lists existing initiatives , such as the healthy child wales programme and breastfeeding action plan . are you satisfied that the draft plan does enough to address the influence that family and parents have on children 's healthy weight behaviours , particularly in the first 1,000 days ? dr frank atherton: well , the first 1,000 days are really critically in shaping lives , as i 'm sure you 'd agree . we are absolutely open to any other suggestions that the public or this committee have as to what more we can and should do . there are a number of things , the sorts of programmes you 've mentioned , that i think could be more effective . we 're currently looking at breastfeeding because it starts before birth , actually . we know that children who are breastfed are less likely to suffer from obesity in childhood and , indeed , to go on to be obese adults . so , we do need to go further on that . we do have some programmes—healthy working wales , et cetera—that need to be improved . if there are other interventions in other areas that we need to take , then we 'd be delighted to hear what they are , but those are the ones that have jumped out so far . nathan cook: can i just say— ? one of the proposals we 're looking for is , obviously , we know that during pregnancy it 's a really critical time when we can actually look to work with mothers . we know from looking at some of the behaviour change that it 's actually a really critical point when new mothers really start thinking about their lives , wanting the best for their child and their families . so , what we are thinking about is how we could develop some kind of approaches to that going forward . but we know our healthy start scheme is also a good lever for us , just in terms of how we can look to improve that kind of dietary offer at the earliest stage as well . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . finally , we know that for some families day-to-day challenges can make it difficult for them to make healthy choices , particularly for those on lower incomes and/or maybe using food banks . could the welsh government take bolder action to better support low-income families to eat healthily ? dr frank atherton: well , you 've touched on a really important point about inequalities because overweight and obesity is not evenly distributed across our population . it absolutely is more prevalent in more socioeconomically deprived communities , and that 's something that should really concern us all . so , it gets you to questions of availability of fresh food and produce ; it gets you to questions of formulation of products and whether value brands are less healthy than more premium brands . so , it cuts across all of those issues that we talked about in terms of settings and in terms of environment earlier . there is something about the affordability of good-quality healthy food that we need to think about . we do need to think in broad terms—broader terms than just obesity , but we do need to think in broad terms—about how we create a society where families have the wherewithal to lead healthy lives , and that gets you to really important questions about the minimum wage and income poverty . there 's no doubt in my mind—i 'm a public health professional—and there 's no doubt in my mind that economic success and health success go hand in hand . so , you speak to a very deep question there . in terms of what we can do through this particular consultation , there are some things in there about providing better access , but without tackling some of those deeper determinants of health , their impact will necessarily be limited . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: just finally from me , then , you referred earlier to the importance of making every contact count , but some stakeholders have told the committee that they struggle to do that because of difficulties in availability of people to refer to . is that a situation that you recognise and what , really , can we do to improve that situation ? dr frank atherton: well , it depends what you mean as to where to refer to . so , the health system obviously needs to respond to this issue . what we 're seeing across the nhs is a gradual transformation in primary care so that primary care is no longer about going to see your gp , it 's about going to see a practice where you have a range of health professionals . would i like to see more dietetic support , for example , in that setting ? absolutely i would . i think we need to think in terms of that pathway that we were talking about earlier , about access to that kind of advice and support , which can head off people getting into problems and kids getting into problems with weight issues . so , that question of redesign of the pathway really speaks to , i think , your point about , 'well , where do people go when they have problems with their weight ? ' that 's true for adults and it 's true for children as well . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . are there any other questions from members ? no . okay . well , can i thank you both very much for your attendance ? it 's been a really productive session . we appreciate your time . you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy in due course , but thank you again . dr frank atherton: we 'll do that . thank you , chair , and thank you to the committee , because getting some input into the consultation from children 's perspectives , this would be one of the routes we would absolutely welcome . thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much . item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the welsh health specialised services committee on camhs tier 4 provision . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for health and social services also on camhs in-patient provision . paper to note 3 is a letter from the children commissioner for wales on tier 4 camhs provision . paper to note 4 is a letter from qualifications wales to the minister for education on qualifications for the new curriculum . paper to note 5 is a letter from me to the minister for education on the development of the new curriculum . paper to note 6 is a letter from me to the minister for education seeking clarification on the draft additional learning needs code . paper to note 7 is a letter from me to the minister for education seeking clarification on the response to our brexit report . paper to note 8 is a letter from the equality and human rights commission on a cumulative impact assessment briefing for committee , which has been offered . paper to note 9 is a letter from the chair of the petitions committee on a national taskforce for children ’ s mental health . paper to note 10 is a letter to the secretary of state for exiting the european union from the children ’ s commissioners for england , scotland , wales and northern ireland on the implications of brexit for children . there are a few that i 'd like to return to in private , but are members happy to note those ? thank you . okay . item 4 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? suzy davies am: yes . there 's somebody up there . lynne neagle am: thank you .

investment needed to implement the plan was more about resourcing . dr frank atherton said they currently did make investments in a number of areas that related to child health generally , and , of course , obesity and overweight in particular . and now , according to existing programmes , a figure of £8 million to £10 million a year had been bandied around as a broad kind of area of what they might need . dr frank atherton also put priority in thinking about the totality of the £7 billion they spent in health and social care and how they could divert and channel some of that towards broad prevention initiatives in general , and towards tackling being overweight and obesity in particular .

summarize the discussion about data on obesity in children and beyond and its use . </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from michelle brown and jack sargeant ; there are no substitutions . can i ask if members have any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . we 'll move on , then , to item 2 , which is our scrutiny of the 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' draft strategy , and i 'm very pleased to welcome dr frank atherton , the chief medical officer for wales , and nathan cook , who is the head of the healthy and active branch at welsh government . thank you , both , for attending this morning . we 're very much looking forward to hearing what you 've got to say . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions . if i can just start by asking about the fact that 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' is an all-age strategy , really , and how confident you are that it will deliver for children and young people . dr frank atherton: well , we 're very confident . i mean , it has to , quite clearly . we do need to think about the present generation , the problems faced by the current generation . we have high prevalence of overweight and obesity among adults—we know that , and we ca n't walk away from that because that 's translating into demand on health services . but we have to take a focus , a future generation 's focus , almost , on the next generation . i do n't write off the current generation , we ca n't afford to do that , but we do need to think about what can we do that would be different for the next generation so that they do n't get into the sorts of problems that we 're currently seeing with overweight and obesity . we know that the consequences of that for our young people are going to be enormous if we do n't do something and something quite soon . we know that overweight children go on to become overweight adults , unfortunately , and that brings all the consequences of multiple disease issues—diabetes is often cited—cancer risk et cetera . so , we have to focus on children , and , in fact , during the consultation , we 've been very clear that we need to engage with children and young people as well . perhaps we 'll get into that at some point , chair , but , yes , i can give you that assurance . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . what my follow-up question , really , is : can you just tell us what kind of engagement you 've had with children and young people to inform the draft strategy ? dr frank atherton: well , nathan may be able to influence some of the detail , but in broad terms , we have discussed with young people in a number of fora . in fact , i was delighted that we had a young person , evie morgan , a schoolgirl from mid wales , who came to the joint launch on the consultation . she met the minister there and gave a very good personal account of her views on obesity and overweight . we 've been visiting a number of schools during the consultation process . i 'm visiting a school , either this week or next week , at treorchy , to talk with teachers and young people there . obviously , we 're hopeful that schools and young people will contribute to the consultation as well . so , we 've had quite good input , i would say , from children and young people . there is always more we can do we and we want to hear those voices . nathan cook: i was going to say , we 've also had a session with youth ambassadors as well , and what we 've actually produced for the consultation is not just the children and young people 's version , but also a toolkit in terms of getting schools really engaged and involved in terms of the work that we want them to do to feed into this as well . so , we 've already had some really good responses from a lot of youth group and schools already . lynne neagle am: and you 've got a structured programme , have you , to roll that out ? okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on leadership , and the first questions are from siân gwenllian . sian gwenllian am: good morning . i 'll be speaking in welsh . the minister for health said yesterday , in answering a question from me on the chamber floor , that you gave him advice not to have a target in terms of reducing obesity among children . could you confirm that that 's what your advice was and tell us why you do n't think that a target is needed ? dr frank atherton: my advice was not that we do n't need a target—we may well need a target , and that 's one of the issues we need to consult on—but that the target that had been adopted in england and in scotland to halve the prevalence of obesity in children was more aspirational than deliverable , and that if we are to choose a target in wales , then we need to balance deliverability with challenge . we need a challenging environment . so , there is something about performance management , because i would be looking to not just the health system but the health and care system and to public services boards to think about how they 're delivering on this , and i think we can use targets to that . but they are one tool in the box that i would think we could use , and part of the consultation is to ask that question—'if we are to go down a route in wales of choosing a target , what might that look like ? ' sian gwenllian am: okay . so , to be clear , you 're not ruling out that maybe we would need a target . dr frank atherton: it 's certainly something that we could consider in terms of the final strategy . sian gwenllian am: and is that your opinion too ? nathan cook: yes . sian gwenllian am: okay . well , that is contrary to what i was told yesterday on the floor of the chamber by the minister , but there we go . i 'm glad to hear that you 're not ruling out having a target , because without a target , without something to aim for , how do we know that we 're getting there ? dr frank atherton: i think your point about evaluation is really important . whatever we produce at the end of this process—and we 're looking to produce a final strategy towards the autumn—we do need to have a strong evaluation . so , some metrics in there , it would seem , would be appropriate , but what those are , what the nature of those are , do we frame them as targets or ambitions—that 's the point we need to consult on . sian gwenllian am: okay . and the other point , of course , is the investment . if the government is going to be successful in terms of the aim of reducing childhood obesity , then it needs to fund and support the actions . have you made an assessment of the level of investment needed to implement this plan ? dr frank atherton: resourcing will be important . we currently do make investments in a number of areas that relate to child health generally , and , of course , obesity and overweight in particular . so , the question of resourcing is important . now , we ca n't quantify an absolute amount of resource that will be needed to deliver until we know exactly what 's going to come out of the consultation and what actions we might want to deliver to a greater degree in wales . a figure of £8 million to £10 million a year has been banded around as a broad kind of area of what we might need to invest , but that would need to be drawn from existing programmes . we need to look at existing programmes , how effective they are . can we make them more effective ? can we get better value from them ? and there may well be a case for new investment , and that 's a question , of course , that would need to be discussed with ministers when we 're producing the final strategy . nathan cook: but i think a key consideration as well is we already know there is investment across health boards in some kind of obesity-related services . so , i think what we really need to think about across wales is how we can drive greater scale , how we can look at current programmes in terms of making sure that they 're better evaluated , and how we can make sure that we 're also drawing up on the existing resources and capacity out there as well . sian gwenllian am: and does the level of investment depend on what the target is—what the goal is ? dr frank atherton: i do n't think you can necessarily just link the two . the issue of resourcing is one that 's there irrespective of whether we choose to put a target in place . sian gwenllian am: but how would we know that it 's being used effectively if there is n't something to aim for ? dr frank atherton: which brings you back to the question about evaluation . we need proper evaluation of the various programmes that we have . sian gwenllian am: yes , but without a target , how can you properly evaluate ? if you do n't know what you 're trying to do , how can you properly evaluate ? anyway , you 're open to suggestions about having a target , which is great . would you agree that government could use the revenue that 's being produced through the levy on soft drinks towards some of these efforts to— ? dr frank atherton: well , of course , there are some consequentials that are coming to the welsh government as part of the levy on sugary soft drinks . that funding , of course , is less than we had anticipated , and that reflects , actually , a success story because industry is reformulating , and so the amount of sugar in soft drinks is already starting to decrease , which is a good thing . but to your question : should we use the funding ? well , of course we should use funding . i 'm not personally in favour of hypothecation , i think i 'm more interested in the totality of resource that goes into public health programmes than into marginal resource . there are , of course , a number of initiatives that we currently fund through the general revenue . and when i think about obesity , i do n't just think about the relatively small marginal amounts of money that come in through whatever source , but i think about the totality of the £7 billion we spend in health and social care and how we can divert and channel some of that towards broad prevention initiatives in general , and towards tackling being overweight and obesity in particular . sian gwenllian am: you 're saying that it 's less than expected . could you give us any kind of figure ? dr frank atherton: i 'm sorry , could you repeat the question ? sian gwenllian am: you say that there is less money that 's come in through these consequentials from the levy , can you mention some sort of figure ? dr frank atherton: the figure that i have in mind is about £56 million that 's coming in in terms of revenue over a two-year period . but i 'd have to confirm that with the committee . what the anticipated— . when the sugar levy was first brought in , there was some modelling at uk level about what level of revenue that would bring , but it was based on the amount of sugar that was currently then in drinks and the fact that the sugar has reduced in drinks , i mean , the total amount available to the uk is less and hence our consequentials are less . nathan may have some precise figures . nathan cook: yes , i was going to say , there was a mid-year report done where the levy has raised £150 million to date since coming into force in april , and the original forecast was £520 million a year . so , i think that shows the amount of work that 's been done by industry around reformulation . sian gwenllian am: and the consequentials of that ? that is the consequential—£150 million . nathan cook: on a uk level . sian gwenllian am: yes , so what 's the welsh consequential ? lynne neagle am: fifty-six . sian gwenllian am: fifty-six ? gosh , that sounds a lot . anyway , it 's a good sum of money and you 're talking about investing £8 million to £10 million . so , obviously , you know , we can be more ambitious because there is money in that pot if that money was ring-fenced for this particular scheme . dr frank atherton: well , the resource is going to be a real issue that we need to address , and i think as nathan has said , there is funding of various initiatives currently in the system , and we need to look at that and make that as effective as possible . will there be a need for some additional resource ? there may well be , and that 's a question that we 'll have to look at in terms of the strategy when we develop it and have a discussion with ministers about the level of resourcing . lynne neagle am: can i just ask on that before siân moves on ? what assessment have you made of how that money is being spent in other uk nations ? because my understanding is that the money is being used in other uk nations to directly impact on obesity . have you given any consideration to— ? as i understand it , that money now is being dispersed around a plethora of programmes , including the transformation programme , and what i found very odd , really , was vaccination , which is surely the core business of the nhs . have you got any view on that ? dr frank atherton: i 'm not sure i understand your point , chair , in terms of the link between the consequentials from— . are you talking about the consequentials from the sugar levy or are you talking about— ? lynne neagle am: yes , because in other nations , it is being used to directly impact on initiatives to tackle obesity , whereas , we 've kind of put it here in wales into the general pot and it 's being used to fund a plethora of different things . dr frank atherton: well , that cuts to what i was talking about . my preference—it 's a personal view—is that hypothecation does n't really help us too much . i mean , what we need to look at is whether the programmes , the sorts of programmes that are being funded in england , or indeed in scotland , are working effectively , and if they are , are they being delivered here in wales ? we have looked very carefully at the plans that england and scotland have for tackling obesity and overweight , and we 've made a comparison with what we 're doing in wales , and our ambition in wales is to go further than those nations , in many ways . but i come back to the point that just linking the hypothecation of a relatively small amount of resource is likely to be less impactful than asking a question of public services boards and of the health system , indeed , about how much money , overall , are we putting into prevention . lynne neagle am: no , i recognise that , and i think we 're talking about additional resource . suzy . suzy davies am: i was just wondering whether you thought that there was a useful psychological link on the part of the public between saying , 'here 's a sugar levy ' , and 'it 's going to be used to help children and adults stay healthier . ' going into a pot , it actually makes it quite difficult to explain the purpose of the tax in the first place . so , i take your overall point , but in terms of the people who we 're trying to help in all this , actually creating a direct link might be quite helpful . dr frank atherton: you may be right . i 'm not a behavioural psychologist . we 'd have to ask— suzy davies am: neither am i. i 'm a person who eats a lot of sugar . [ laughter . ] dr frank atherton: your point 's taken . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: thanks . siân . sian gwenllian am: the last question from me , about partnership working . you 're putting an emphasis on the whole-system approach in implementing the plan , how are you going to create a system that co-ordinates action and drives change across relevant partners , avoiding a situation where it 's everyone 's role , but nobody 's responsibility ? how are you going to avoid that ? dr frank atherton: it 's a very important question , and one of the four strands in the consultation is exactly related to that , around leadership and drive nationally . i 'm not interested in producing a strategy that sits on a shelf . if you look around the world , there are plenty of obesity strategies . you may notice , by the way , that we 've chosen not to talk about an obesity strategy but a healthy weight strategy , because i think having a positive construct is really quite important to us here in wales . but leadership will be really important , and we will need some sort of structure to lead this , to provide oversight . i 'm not a great believer in creating new structures , so we do need something that will give that drive , but the leadership comes from the top down . we need political commitment to this , and that 's why i welcome the input from this committee . so , that needs to be assured . and then we need to make sure that the public sector generally is engaged in this , but it goes way beyond the public sector , of course , because we have to work with industry , and we have to work with communities , and we have to work with the public on this . so we need to think about our governance system for this and how we drive it forward . interestingly , we had quite a large discussion two days ago between health and social care , but also involving the third sector and some members of the public , around how can we drive prevention more generally . it was n't specifically on obesity , but of course obesity came up because it 's such a pressing issue . this question of governance was discussed quite extensively , and we do have governance systems , of course , in wales . we have public services boards , we have regional partnership boards , and how we can get those aligned behind this common agenda is really important . but i 'd like to see—and i know i 'm a public health professional , so i know that only maybe 10 per cent , 15 per cent , possibly 20 per cent of what makes and keeps us healthy as individuals and as communities can be driven through the health system ; but i would like the system to step up and take these kinds of issues more seriously as well . so i 'd be looking for local leadership through directors of public health and indeed through chief executives to work with their public services boards on this . so , we 'll need some sort of national oversight , absolutely , but we need local ownership and local leadership , too . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 've got some questions now from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . delivery of the plan will be led by a national implementation board that will be accountable to ministers . which minister do you believe it should be accountable to , or , given the complexity of obesity , should the board be directly accountable to the first minister ? dr frank atherton: ultimately , the first minister will be responsible for this and will want to have a strong oversight of this . it is often framed as a health issue , and the minister , vaughan gething , has a strong personal commitment to this , i know . we 've talked extensively with him and with sports and recreation colleagues about that , so there 's a link there . it does cut across all portfolios , and so this is an issue that i have discussed with cabinet , and that collective ownership is really important , and will be , because it ca n't just sit in one domain . i think what you do need to have is you do need to have a lead organisation or a lead ministry , and i would see health as—i work within health , so i 'm perhaps biased , but i would see health as leading this , but it needs broad ownership across government . janet finch-saunders am: i know my colleague siân gwenllian mentioned earlier targets and things , but i know in wales we 're not too good at collecting data . what data is currently available on childhood obesity and what metrics will be used to measure progress against the plan 's objectives ? dr frank atherton: well , of course , our main data source is the child measurement programme , which collects information on children entering school aged four or five . that 's our main source of information . if we look at that data , it shows us— . well , i 'm sure you 're familiar with the statistics , but it 'll be just under a third of children at that age who are overweight or obese— janet finch-saunders am: could i just ask—sorry to interrupt—how up to date is that ? dr frank atherton: the last survey was just last year . nathan cook: the data was published last week . dr frank atherton: yes , the lastest data was out last week . janet finch-saunders am: it is pretty up to date . dr frank atherton: so , it 's pretty up to date , and what it shows— . it 's not getting radically worse—there 's always statistical variation in these things—but it 's not getting any better . and , for the first time last year , we did look at the question not just of children who were overweight or obese , but we actually singled out the proportion who are obese , severely obese . so we have a figure for that for the first time , which is about 12 per cent , which is quite shocking , in a way . janet finch-saunders am: it is shocking . dr frank atherton: so , that 's our main source of information . does that answer your question ? janet finch-saunders am: yes , but how will any gaps in your data be addressed ? dr frank atherton: well , one of the questions that are often asked is : could we measure more on a longitudinal basis ? by that i mean in england , for example , children are measured at school entry and then again at year 11—at age 11 or 12. , that kind of age group . and so you do have a longitudinal view over time of what 's happening to children . i think that would be helpful to us in wales , and it 's one of the questions in the consultation about whether we should expand that . obviously , that would have significant resource implications , not just for the funding , but also for schools and for the system to deliver it . but it 's something that maybe would help us in terms of better understanding and better evaluation—the point that was made earlier . nathan cook: and the other data we do have is the millennium cohort study , which has been released , for 14 and 15-year-olds . that 's going to be— . we 're starting to think about how we can utilise some of that data , looking at that longitudinal picture around children as well , which will be really helpful . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . you 've answered my next question . thank you . lynne neagle am: can i just ask about the child measurement programme ? the strategy commits to looking at whether we can have a second measurement taking place in wales . can you just tell us a bit more about your thinking on that and when you would see a second measurement taking place and how you would use that data ? dr frank atherton: i touched on that just now , but personally i do think it would be helpful to have more information . it 's always the case , there 's always a trade-off between the cost of getting that information and the value of the information . so , the question of how it would be used would be really important . there is still a lot that we do n't know . we know an awful lot about obesity and being overweight and the causes of it , but we do n't really have a very clear understanding , in wales at least , of the point at which children start to become overweight . although we know that overweight children tend to go on to become overweight adults , we do n't know what proportion of them between school entry and later teenage years—what those changes are . so , it would help us to have some better understanding , which would help to direct some of our initiatives . i 'd be generally supportive of the principle . we 'll wait and see what comes out in the consultation , and it 's something that we need to give thought to , but we do have to trade off the additionality of what the information would give us with the cost of doing that , of course . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on healthy environments from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . in the draft plan , some of the measures in there suggest legislating for restricting price promotions and banning energy drinks , and that sort of thing . do you think that , if we go down that road , there 's going to be time within this assembly to introduce such legislation ? and , if not , what do you think might be the timescale for such legislation ? dr frank atherton: it may well be that there are things in wales that we might wish to legislate on , and you 've mentioned two of them , and they 're good examples . we would , obviously , need to undertake quite detailed consultation on those and , in a way , we need to mirror what 's happening in england and in scotland to some degree around the consultations they 're having on energy drinks . we also need to influence the issues that are not devolved to us and we seek to do that . as to your question of legislative time , i 'm not really in a position to answer that . what i could say is that legislation may well be one of the outcomes of the consultation . there may well be things that we wish to choose to legislate on . the timing of that will have to be subject to other pressures , and i come back to the point that legislation , of course , is one of the tools that we 've got—we need to deploy them all . dawn bowden am: sure , i understand that , that you could do other things . i know— . we 've heard from the government , on other calls for legislation , that the programme 's very tight , certainly for this term , so i was just wondering whether we might get that in , but okay . if i turn now to the planning system—and this might not be something that you have great deal of knowledge of ; i 'd just welcome your view on this , because , when we discussed with stakeholders , we talked about whether the planning system , for instance , could be used to , as an example , restrict hot food takeaways around schools and so on . would that be a measure that you would support , something like that ? dr frank atherton: i think it 's definitely something we want to look at and , of course , that question is asked in the consultation , so we would like to know people 's views on that . it 's an interesting one . i think there is a question—a really important question—about how we can use the planning system more effectively . i 've discussed with nathan on a number of occasions , with planning colleagues in welsh government and in local authorities , about the art of the possible , let 's say . there may be things that we could think about and we want to get those ideas through the consultation . the specific question around takeaways , particularly takeaways near schools , is often asked . i was very interested to see , up in the north-east , some time ago , that one of the local authorities up there did put a moratorium on the opening of new fast-food venues near to schools , or indeed in areas where levels of obesity and overweight were particularly high . i understand london is now—some london boroughs are now—experimenting with that as well . so , that gave me comfort , because maybe there are powers within local authorities that can be used more effectively . i think my view at the moment is that the jury 's kind of out on whether those are effective and how effective they 're going to be . but the fact that we have some initiatives around the uk does give us an opportunity to study that and to learn from experience perhaps and then , if it is shown to be beneficial , to think about that here in wales , yes . dawn bowden am: sure , because it will only be one of a suite of measures anyway . of itself , it would n't address the problem , but , added to other initiatives , i guess it would . can i just ask you briefly , then , about community sport infrastructure and , in particular , of new schools ? so , welsh government , as you know , has ploughed a huge amount of money into the twenty-first century schools programme . what we heard when we spoke to stakeholders recently , particularly headteachers , was that , in some of the new schools that have been built , we have n't had changing rooms and toilet facilities , for instance , built into the new buildings . so , if we 're going to try and utilise these buildings for general community activity to get kids and the wider public , actually , more active , do you think that 's something that we ought to be building in ? again , not your particular direct area of responsibility , but something that you might have an input into , is that , when we 're developing schools , we should be making sure that they have those kinds of facilities so that they become accessible to the wider public . is that something that you would be prepared to make a recommendation around ? dr frank atherton: well , it 's certainly a fascinating area and one that i think has a lot of potential . it goes— . you 're right to raise it in the context of schools , and i can understand why this committee would , but i think it goes beyond that , actually , into all developments in the public sector and how they 're developed and whether we 're building health into our environment , which perhaps is your starting point . one of the things that i was really pleased to see in terms of the public health ( wales ) act 2017 that was passed a couple of years ago was the use of health impact assessment as a tool , and we 're still working on how that will inform policy and how that will be applied in issues such as policy decisions through government , but also in more downstream issues about how we create the public infrastructure that the public can and should be using . and so i would like to see the use of health impact assessments to a much greater degree to inform those kinds of decisions . if you apply that kind of lens and you take the point , which is inherent in your question , i think , that schools are not just for kids , they 're for communities , then you would—it would lead you to a conclusion that you would perhaps design and build them in a different way . so , on a personal basis , i would certainly support your view that we should be looking to use the sports environment in schools in the same way as we use leisure centres . there are all kinds of barriers in there , and i understand all of that , and it 's not really my field , exactly as you say , but , as a matter of principle , i think it 's a good one to pursue . dawn bowden am: okay . thank you . and widening it out to other public services buildings as well . dr frank atherton: indeed . dawn bowden am: yes . okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 're going to move on now to talk about how we create healthy settings . i 've got some questions from suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you very much . yes , perhaps if we could just stay in this area of education just for a moment , i think we all agree that healthy habits acquired early on probably tend to last quite well , so i wonder if you can tell us a little bit about the healthy and sustainable preschool scheme and whether you think some timescales should be made public about what you expect the achievements from that scheme to be . but , in particular , i was struck with what you said about local leadership , and i just want you to bear that in mind in answering the next question , which is about the foundation phase . you 're probably aware that this committee has heard from various school leaders that they 're struggling in some cases to meet the ratio of staffing for the foundation phase , which potentially compromises the purpose of it in terms of physical activity . i 'm just wondering how the strategy development board is considering that at the moment . is it something that 's come on the radar for the board ? is it something you 're thinking about ? and , if so , who do you think should be responsible for pinning that down a little bit ? because this is education , not health , and— . dr frank atherton: well , look , i 've got to confess to you , i 'm not an educationist , and so the question on staffing numbers in schools is not one that i have been asked to give a deal of consideration to , and it has n't really been discussed , i do n't believe , in the context of development of the strategy . if there is a specific point around that that the committee would like to make in terms of a response into the consultation , which i presume you 'll be making , then we 'd be happy to consider that . as to healthy preschools , i do n't know , nathan may have some view on that . i 've not been closely involved with the work . we have standards and we perhaps need to think about how we tighten those standards and how we—enforce is n't the right word , but how we implement and make sure that those standards are properly implemented , because you 're absolutely right to say that habits are developed early in life . that 's in the preschool ; it 's also in the home of course , and then later in the school . so , we do need to look at all of those as settings and are there more things we can do within those settings to drive healthier behaviours—that 's exactly why we need the consultation . nathan cook: but i would say , through that scheme as well , we 've really got a really good bank of preschools that are actually doing some really great work in this area as well . so , i think the more we can understand the successes that some of those environments are having—you know , how we can roll those out and work across other settings to create that wider impact as well is going to be really important . suzy davies am: okay . thank you . what i 'm thinking about is expectations at that level will be expectations at a slightly older level , which will be contained within the foundation phase . and while you 're quite right—obviously , parents have a role in this , or families—there will be , particularly with the introduction of the new curriculum , certain expectations on schools to provide not just healthy environments but to actively work towards well-being and healthy weight in children and things . and that 's why i asked you about local leadership , because , if it fails for reasons that have nothing to do with the plan at foundation phase , it 's going to fail further up the school years as well . i think it might be something that the board might want to consider here , because at some point there 'll be an accountability question and we will want to know how 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' fits in with the new plans for the new curriculum , and whether it 's merely persuasive and influential or whether it has the weight to place some obligations on school leaders about what they do in their schools . so , this connection , i think , is quite an important one , and , if the strategy development board could consider that , i think it would be very helpful , because this does n't exist in a vacuum . dr frank atherton: well , i 'd certainly be delighted to take that back and we can look at it in terms of how we move from the consultation into the final strategy . it 's certainly a point we can try and look at . suzy davies am: because we will want to know who to ask : 'you 're the accountable person—why has something worked , or not worked ? ' we will need to know that at some point . dr frank atherton: just building on nathan 's point , some of the schools—i know it 's schools rather than the preschools , and i take your point , but some of the schools we 've been working with have absolutely brilliant models of good practice and good local leadership . i remember the minister actually at the launch , and one of the schools was represented there , and they presented—the school came and some of the children came and presented—to the whole audience about the activities that they were undertaking in their school around physical activity and on healthy eating , and it was such a model of good behaviour the question was , 'well , why not everywhere ? ' , so that probably speaks to your question . suzy davies am: okay , well , thank you for that commitment anyway . lynne neagle am: and have you had any discussions , then , with education officials around things like teacher training and cpd , because you 'll be aware the health and social care committee has made a number of recommendations in this area ? it 's crucial that we skill up the staff to develop these things in an appropriate way , is n't it ? dr frank atherton: well , we certainly discuss with education colleagues in welsh government . there 's more we need to do in terms of that , because you 're absolutely right : there 's something about building the whole of the workforce—education is really important , but elsewhere as well ; it 's about how do we really make every contact count , you know , that construct . so , everybody who 's working in the health and social care system should have a role in this ; everybody who works in education , whether it 's the old— . do we still have dinner ladies ? or teachers , you know , they have a role to play in supporting children to be as healthy as they possibly can . and , actually , i see them , chair , as a really essential part of the public health workforce . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . suzy , are you going to do your curriculum one ? suzy davies am: well , i 've bound it in together , but that final point you make about teachers being part of the answer to this , they 're already under a range of pressures : is it fair to make them accountable for whether this works or not ? or should that local leadership lie somewhere else ? i do n't expect you to pin down a person today . dr frank atherton: i would n't like to blame a teacher or performance manage them on the proportion of their children in their class who are overweight . that would clearly be nonsense , would n't it ? but they are part of the solution , and so the accountability lies further up the chain , does n't it ? the question i think we would have , and public services boards might well ask , and the local education authorities may well ask , is : how effective is any particular school at driving forwards these healthy behaviours ? suzy davies am: okay , thank you . i 'll leave some questions for hefin . lynne neagle am: hefin . hefin david am: is that all right , chair ? lynne neagle am: you 've got the floor , hefin . hefin david am: thank you , chair . you make a commitment to embedding physical activity at an early stage in primary school education . what would that look like ? dr frank atherton: just in terms of the physical activity , i have to say it 's a really important dimension and we need to move further on . we know not enough of our children are physically active and they 're not meeting the various guidelines , so it 's really important . it does n't actually have as much of an impact on weight as the dietary issue . i 'd just say that . it 's really important for all sorts of reasons . it does have an impact on healthy weight , but it has a huge impact in terms of socialisation , in terms of mental health issues , et cetera , you know . so—i 'm sorry , i 've lost track of your question . nathan cook: i 'd just say that one thing we have got in train is , obviously , sport wales , public health wales and natural resources wales—we have them working together as a collaborative at the moment to look at how their joint delivery on physical activity can be taken forward more efficiently . so , one of the things they are looking at is obviously the schools programmes they do through eco-schools , the welsh network of healthy schools and the sports programme to really think about that physical activity and how we can have better join up in terms of the programmes that we 're already delivering as well . hefin david am: with that in mind , i 'm going to confess to you , chief medical officer , i did anything in school i could to avoid physical education lessons . i hated it . i did n't feel engaged with it . yet , two weeks ago , i played for the assembly rugby team—i wanted to get that in . the school sports survey , that would suggest that we 're still not hitting those targets with children . how can we get children more engaged with physical education in ways that— ? i felt completely alienated in school . dr frank atherton: well , you 're right , and many people go through that same journey and come to physical activity later in life , and that 's great if they do that . the sad reality is that many people do n't , and we also know that there are issues around the dropping off , particularly for girls , of physical activity towards the teenage years . so , there are specific moments that we need to understand . we do have a lot of information about these kinds of things . public health wales is very good at collating the information . we do need to turn that into programmes . i mean , at the heart of it , it 's about making sports and physical activity enjoyable and attractive to people . sometimes that 's easier , i sense , for boys than for girls , but we need to tailor things to different audiences . hefin david am: yes , that 's the trick , is n't it ? it 's about finding out what children enjoy doing . that could be quite a wide and varied range of things . is that the key ? dawn bowden am: it 's not all about organised team sports . hefin david am: yes . as dawn said , it 's not just about organised team sports . there are some very individual activities you could do . dr frank atherton: absolutely , yes . and that 's where i think— . i 'm delighted that sport wales has moved beyond . it 's not just about elite sports ; it 's about getting everybody engaged and active in sports , and that partnership with public health wales that nathan talked about is really important , because we need a population approach to driving physical activity . hefin david am: so , do you think , with that in mind , we need statutory guidance for schools on physical education ? dr frank atherton: again , i 'd look to the consultation as to whether there was an appetite for any kind of guidance . it may well be that that is something that could be considered . hefin david am: okay . and finally , with regard to free school meals to all pupils in primary and secondary schools , do you think that extending that to all pupils would be beneficial in providing a more varied diet for pupils ? dr frank atherton: i do n't have a personal view on that . i think it 's the quality of the food that kids are getting , whether that comes from home or through school , and whether it 's free or whether it 's paid for . i think it 's the quality of the food that we need to focus on . the question of children being hungry at school is a really important one and needs to be addressed at a national level . i think that 's a— hefin david am: so , you think that 's more about the provision of food for those who might not have access to it than providing a varied diet . dr frank atherton: i think it 's important that children have access to food , absolutely , if that 's your question , but we also need to look at the quality of the food and what 's in that food offer . hefin david am: but you do n't necessarily think universal provision would— . dr frank atherton: i do n't have a clear view on that . i know there 's a larger debate about that . hefin david am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: i 've got some supplementaries from janet and then suzy . janet finch-saunders am: yes . i 've been around some amazing schools in my own constituency , where they 've got proper canteen facilities for pupils and really , really good produce in the meals . however , there 's probably only a third having school meals ; the rest are packed lunches . and , to be honest , i 've been very surprised and shocked at what i 've seen of the quality of the food in the packed lunches . nobody can really police , and i would n't want to see parents being policed over what goes in a packed lunch , so if there is data out there to suggest that there 's a larger percentage of parents providing packed lunched that are really not good at all , then there is some merit to be said for what hefin is— . me , personally , i 'd love to see the introduction of universal school meals . i think it 's been a very retrograde step , going backwards . would you be willing to carry out any research ? dr frank atherton: so , i mean , your point about food that 's brought in in the packed lunches is a really important one , and i 've talked to some headteachers as well about this . we could go down a route of guidance and prohibition , but that gets you into the role of nanny in chief and i do n't really see that as my role or government 's role , and i do n't think it 's effective either . do you remember— ? you must have seen on tv—i think it was in scotland ; i do n't know if it 's happened in wales—parents pushing the fish and chip packets through the school railings . we do n't need to get into that . what i have seen , though , is some really good innovative practice in schools where , for example , they reward children for bringing the healthy options . schools can give guidance to parents about what would be a healthy lunch and what sort of things might be expected to be seen in the lunch box . and you can reward children , and children do respond to rewards . so , i 've seen some of those approaches that have transformed , actually , the offer of what comes in school boxes . but i think just banning chocolate bars and crisps in the packed lunch is unlikely to be successful . janet finch-saunders am: we ca n't do that . so , my point to the question was : is n't there some merit , perhaps , about all children being equal and eating similar good-quality food in schools ? dr frank atherton: yes . that gets you back to the question about universal school meals . janet finch-saunders am: perhaps some of that £56 million sugar tax , even . who knows ? lynne neagle am: suzy . suzy davies am: yes . mine is just a short question . the draft plan commits , does n't it , to updating the healthy eating in schools regulations—the 2013 regulations ? i appreciate this is a consultation , but what is it that needs changing in those regulations at the moment , just to give us a bit of steer ? nathan cook: it 's mainly on sugar content , so , obviously , they do n't adhere to current scientific advisory committee on nutrition guidelines around sugar levels . so , what we 'd want to consider is , you know , what we need to be careful of is unintended consequences of changing that , as well , if you see a shift to more kids bringing in school packed lunches as well . so , i think we want to consider the best way of doing that and consider through the consultation how we can go about it . suzy davies am: all right . so , it 's very pertinent to janet 's question , in that way . okay , so it 's mainly about sugar , but it could be about other things as well . okay . thanks . lynne neagle am: okay . the next questions are from janet anyway ; firstly , on the clinical obesity pathway . janet finch-saunders am: the 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' plan commits to a review of the clinical obesity pathway . what are the time frames for this review , and what do you think are the basic essentials of a clinical obesity pathway for children and young people ? dr frank atherton: we do have a pathway for managing overweight , and that 's been in place since about 2010 , i believe , and we do need to bring that up to date in terms of current knowledge and experiences . we 've challenged public health wales ; we 've asked public health wales to undertake a review of that pathway , and they are going through that process now . i 'm not sure of exactly the time frame that we have given them for that . nathan cook: we were asking them to review the pathway before we launch the final strategy in october because , obviously , what we want is for that to inform what that final strategy looks like . so , we 'll be looking probably early autumn for them to report back on that . dr frank atherton: the second point of your question about what are the essential elements , i mean , they are already there ; we need to tweak them and we need to make sure that they 're properly delivered . but it 's a tiered approach , so , having access to information through schools and through communities and into families is part of the first step of that . and then , if children are overweight , it 's a question about how they 're identified . there are questions about the ability of the public to recognise large children , so there may be an issue there . but when children are running into issues around weight , what kind of interventions can be put in , either through primary care or through communities through health visitors , et cetera ? and then of course we do have—and we 've started to shine a light on this , have n't we—the very overweight children . i do n't think we have enough in the way of targeted support to be able to support those . there are programmes available , but they 're perhaps not universally provided . so , i think there 's something about looking at our whole pathway , mapping out what the current evidence now shows us is needed , and then thinking about what is our provision in wales and what do we need to do to bring that up to the level of the places that are the best . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . the draft plan recognises the importance of the first 1,000 days , but it does n't appear to include any new proposals to help parents to enable lifestyle changes . it lists existing initiatives , such as the healthy child wales programme and breastfeeding action plan . are you satisfied that the draft plan does enough to address the influence that family and parents have on children 's healthy weight behaviours , particularly in the first 1,000 days ? dr frank atherton: well , the first 1,000 days are really critically in shaping lives , as i 'm sure you 'd agree . we are absolutely open to any other suggestions that the public or this committee have as to what more we can and should do . there are a number of things , the sorts of programmes you 've mentioned , that i think could be more effective . we 're currently looking at breastfeeding because it starts before birth , actually . we know that children who are breastfed are less likely to suffer from obesity in childhood and , indeed , to go on to be obese adults . so , we do need to go further on that . we do have some programmes—healthy working wales , et cetera—that need to be improved . if there are other interventions in other areas that we need to take , then we 'd be delighted to hear what they are , but those are the ones that have jumped out so far . nathan cook: can i just say— ? one of the proposals we 're looking for is , obviously , we know that during pregnancy it 's a really critical time when we can actually look to work with mothers . we know from looking at some of the behaviour change that it 's actually a really critical point when new mothers really start thinking about their lives , wanting the best for their child and their families . so , what we are thinking about is how we could develop some kind of approaches to that going forward . but we know our healthy start scheme is also a good lever for us , just in terms of how we can look to improve that kind of dietary offer at the earliest stage as well . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . finally , we know that for some families day-to-day challenges can make it difficult for them to make healthy choices , particularly for those on lower incomes and/or maybe using food banks . could the welsh government take bolder action to better support low-income families to eat healthily ? dr frank atherton: well , you 've touched on a really important point about inequalities because overweight and obesity is not evenly distributed across our population . it absolutely is more prevalent in more socioeconomically deprived communities , and that 's something that should really concern us all . so , it gets you to questions of availability of fresh food and produce ; it gets you to questions of formulation of products and whether value brands are less healthy than more premium brands . so , it cuts across all of those issues that we talked about in terms of settings and in terms of environment earlier . there is something about the affordability of good-quality healthy food that we need to think about . we do need to think in broad terms—broader terms than just obesity , but we do need to think in broad terms—about how we create a society where families have the wherewithal to lead healthy lives , and that gets you to really important questions about the minimum wage and income poverty . there 's no doubt in my mind—i 'm a public health professional—and there 's no doubt in my mind that economic success and health success go hand in hand . so , you speak to a very deep question there . in terms of what we can do through this particular consultation , there are some things in there about providing better access , but without tackling some of those deeper determinants of health , their impact will necessarily be limited . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: just finally from me , then , you referred earlier to the importance of making every contact count , but some stakeholders have told the committee that they struggle to do that because of difficulties in availability of people to refer to . is that a situation that you recognise and what , really , can we do to improve that situation ? dr frank atherton: well , it depends what you mean as to where to refer to . so , the health system obviously needs to respond to this issue . what we 're seeing across the nhs is a gradual transformation in primary care so that primary care is no longer about going to see your gp , it 's about going to see a practice where you have a range of health professionals . would i like to see more dietetic support , for example , in that setting ? absolutely i would . i think we need to think in terms of that pathway that we were talking about earlier , about access to that kind of advice and support , which can head off people getting into problems and kids getting into problems with weight issues . so , that question of redesign of the pathway really speaks to , i think , your point about , 'well , where do people go when they have problems with their weight ? ' that 's true for adults and it 's true for children as well . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . are there any other questions from members ? no . okay . well , can i thank you both very much for your attendance ? it 's been a really productive session . we appreciate your time . you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy in due course , but thank you again . dr frank atherton: we 'll do that . thank you , chair , and thank you to the committee , because getting some input into the consultation from children 's perspectives , this would be one of the routes we would absolutely welcome . thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much . item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the welsh health specialised services committee on camhs tier 4 provision . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for health and social services also on camhs in-patient provision . paper to note 3 is a letter from the children commissioner for wales on tier 4 camhs provision . paper to note 4 is a letter from qualifications wales to the minister for education on qualifications for the new curriculum . paper to note 5 is a letter from me to the minister for education on the development of the new curriculum . paper to note 6 is a letter from me to the minister for education seeking clarification on the draft additional learning needs code . paper to note 7 is a letter from me to the minister for education seeking clarification on the response to our brexit report . paper to note 8 is a letter from the equality and human rights commission on a cumulative impact assessment briefing for committee , which has been offered . paper to note 9 is a letter from the chair of the petitions committee on a national taskforce for children ’ s mental health . paper to note 10 is a letter to the secretary of state for exiting the european union from the children ’ s commissioners for england , scotland , wales and northern ireland on the implications of brexit for children . there are a few that i 'd like to return to in private , but are members happy to note those ? thank you . okay . item 4 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? suzy davies am: yes . there 's somebody up there . lynne neagle am: thank you .

there main data source was the child measurement programme , which collected information on children entering school aged four or five , showing that under a third of children at that age are overweight or obese . dr frank atherton spoke of the frequency of being asked to have a longitudinal view over time of what 's happening to children , which was obviously essential for our schools and for the system and helpful for the strategy evaluation .

what did dr frank atherton say about the data ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from michelle brown and jack sargeant ; there are no substitutions . can i ask if members have any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . we 'll move on , then , to item 2 , which is our scrutiny of the 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' draft strategy , and i 'm very pleased to welcome dr frank atherton , the chief medical officer for wales , and nathan cook , who is the head of the healthy and active branch at welsh government . thank you , both , for attending this morning . we 're very much looking forward to hearing what you 've got to say . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions . if i can just start by asking about the fact that 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' is an all-age strategy , really , and how confident you are that it will deliver for children and young people . dr frank atherton: well , we 're very confident . i mean , it has to , quite clearly . we do need to think about the present generation , the problems faced by the current generation . we have high prevalence of overweight and obesity among adults—we know that , and we ca n't walk away from that because that 's translating into demand on health services . but we have to take a focus , a future generation 's focus , almost , on the next generation . i do n't write off the current generation , we ca n't afford to do that , but we do need to think about what can we do that would be different for the next generation so that they do n't get into the sorts of problems that we 're currently seeing with overweight and obesity . we know that the consequences of that for our young people are going to be enormous if we do n't do something and something quite soon . we know that overweight children go on to become overweight adults , unfortunately , and that brings all the consequences of multiple disease issues—diabetes is often cited—cancer risk et cetera . so , we have to focus on children , and , in fact , during the consultation , we 've been very clear that we need to engage with children and young people as well . perhaps we 'll get into that at some point , chair , but , yes , i can give you that assurance . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . what my follow-up question , really , is : can you just tell us what kind of engagement you 've had with children and young people to inform the draft strategy ? dr frank atherton: well , nathan may be able to influence some of the detail , but in broad terms , we have discussed with young people in a number of fora . in fact , i was delighted that we had a young person , evie morgan , a schoolgirl from mid wales , who came to the joint launch on the consultation . she met the minister there and gave a very good personal account of her views on obesity and overweight . we 've been visiting a number of schools during the consultation process . i 'm visiting a school , either this week or next week , at treorchy , to talk with teachers and young people there . obviously , we 're hopeful that schools and young people will contribute to the consultation as well . so , we 've had quite good input , i would say , from children and young people . there is always more we can do we and we want to hear those voices . nathan cook: i was going to say , we 've also had a session with youth ambassadors as well , and what we 've actually produced for the consultation is not just the children and young people 's version , but also a toolkit in terms of getting schools really engaged and involved in terms of the work that we want them to do to feed into this as well . so , we 've already had some really good responses from a lot of youth group and schools already . lynne neagle am: and you 've got a structured programme , have you , to roll that out ? okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on leadership , and the first questions are from siân gwenllian . sian gwenllian am: good morning . i 'll be speaking in welsh . the minister for health said yesterday , in answering a question from me on the chamber floor , that you gave him advice not to have a target in terms of reducing obesity among children . could you confirm that that 's what your advice was and tell us why you do n't think that a target is needed ? dr frank atherton: my advice was not that we do n't need a target—we may well need a target , and that 's one of the issues we need to consult on—but that the target that had been adopted in england and in scotland to halve the prevalence of obesity in children was more aspirational than deliverable , and that if we are to choose a target in wales , then we need to balance deliverability with challenge . we need a challenging environment . so , there is something about performance management , because i would be looking to not just the health system but the health and care system and to public services boards to think about how they 're delivering on this , and i think we can use targets to that . but they are one tool in the box that i would think we could use , and part of the consultation is to ask that question—'if we are to go down a route in wales of choosing a target , what might that look like ? ' sian gwenllian am: okay . so , to be clear , you 're not ruling out that maybe we would need a target . dr frank atherton: it 's certainly something that we could consider in terms of the final strategy . sian gwenllian am: and is that your opinion too ? nathan cook: yes . sian gwenllian am: okay . well , that is contrary to what i was told yesterday on the floor of the chamber by the minister , but there we go . i 'm glad to hear that you 're not ruling out having a target , because without a target , without something to aim for , how do we know that we 're getting there ? dr frank atherton: i think your point about evaluation is really important . whatever we produce at the end of this process—and we 're looking to produce a final strategy towards the autumn—we do need to have a strong evaluation . so , some metrics in there , it would seem , would be appropriate , but what those are , what the nature of those are , do we frame them as targets or ambitions—that 's the point we need to consult on . sian gwenllian am: okay . and the other point , of course , is the investment . if the government is going to be successful in terms of the aim of reducing childhood obesity , then it needs to fund and support the actions . have you made an assessment of the level of investment needed to implement this plan ? dr frank atherton: resourcing will be important . we currently do make investments in a number of areas that relate to child health generally , and , of course , obesity and overweight in particular . so , the question of resourcing is important . now , we ca n't quantify an absolute amount of resource that will be needed to deliver until we know exactly what 's going to come out of the consultation and what actions we might want to deliver to a greater degree in wales . a figure of £8 million to £10 million a year has been banded around as a broad kind of area of what we might need to invest , but that would need to be drawn from existing programmes . we need to look at existing programmes , how effective they are . can we make them more effective ? can we get better value from them ? and there may well be a case for new investment , and that 's a question , of course , that would need to be discussed with ministers when we 're producing the final strategy . nathan cook: but i think a key consideration as well is we already know there is investment across health boards in some kind of obesity-related services . so , i think what we really need to think about across wales is how we can drive greater scale , how we can look at current programmes in terms of making sure that they 're better evaluated , and how we can make sure that we 're also drawing up on the existing resources and capacity out there as well . sian gwenllian am: and does the level of investment depend on what the target is—what the goal is ? dr frank atherton: i do n't think you can necessarily just link the two . the issue of resourcing is one that 's there irrespective of whether we choose to put a target in place . sian gwenllian am: but how would we know that it 's being used effectively if there is n't something to aim for ? dr frank atherton: which brings you back to the question about evaluation . we need proper evaluation of the various programmes that we have . sian gwenllian am: yes , but without a target , how can you properly evaluate ? if you do n't know what you 're trying to do , how can you properly evaluate ? anyway , you 're open to suggestions about having a target , which is great . would you agree that government could use the revenue that 's being produced through the levy on soft drinks towards some of these efforts to— ? dr frank atherton: well , of course , there are some consequentials that are coming to the welsh government as part of the levy on sugary soft drinks . that funding , of course , is less than we had anticipated , and that reflects , actually , a success story because industry is reformulating , and so the amount of sugar in soft drinks is already starting to decrease , which is a good thing . but to your question : should we use the funding ? well , of course we should use funding . i 'm not personally in favour of hypothecation , i think i 'm more interested in the totality of resource that goes into public health programmes than into marginal resource . there are , of course , a number of initiatives that we currently fund through the general revenue . and when i think about obesity , i do n't just think about the relatively small marginal amounts of money that come in through whatever source , but i think about the totality of the £7 billion we spend in health and social care and how we can divert and channel some of that towards broad prevention initiatives in general , and towards tackling being overweight and obesity in particular . sian gwenllian am: you 're saying that it 's less than expected . could you give us any kind of figure ? dr frank atherton: i 'm sorry , could you repeat the question ? sian gwenllian am: you say that there is less money that 's come in through these consequentials from the levy , can you mention some sort of figure ? dr frank atherton: the figure that i have in mind is about £56 million that 's coming in in terms of revenue over a two-year period . but i 'd have to confirm that with the committee . what the anticipated— . when the sugar levy was first brought in , there was some modelling at uk level about what level of revenue that would bring , but it was based on the amount of sugar that was currently then in drinks and the fact that the sugar has reduced in drinks , i mean , the total amount available to the uk is less and hence our consequentials are less . nathan may have some precise figures . nathan cook: yes , i was going to say , there was a mid-year report done where the levy has raised £150 million to date since coming into force in april , and the original forecast was £520 million a year . so , i think that shows the amount of work that 's been done by industry around reformulation . sian gwenllian am: and the consequentials of that ? that is the consequential—£150 million . nathan cook: on a uk level . sian gwenllian am: yes , so what 's the welsh consequential ? lynne neagle am: fifty-six . sian gwenllian am: fifty-six ? gosh , that sounds a lot . anyway , it 's a good sum of money and you 're talking about investing £8 million to £10 million . so , obviously , you know , we can be more ambitious because there is money in that pot if that money was ring-fenced for this particular scheme . dr frank atherton: well , the resource is going to be a real issue that we need to address , and i think as nathan has said , there is funding of various initiatives currently in the system , and we need to look at that and make that as effective as possible . will there be a need for some additional resource ? there may well be , and that 's a question that we 'll have to look at in terms of the strategy when we develop it and have a discussion with ministers about the level of resourcing . lynne neagle am: can i just ask on that before siân moves on ? what assessment have you made of how that money is being spent in other uk nations ? because my understanding is that the money is being used in other uk nations to directly impact on obesity . have you given any consideration to— ? as i understand it , that money now is being dispersed around a plethora of programmes , including the transformation programme , and what i found very odd , really , was vaccination , which is surely the core business of the nhs . have you got any view on that ? dr frank atherton: i 'm not sure i understand your point , chair , in terms of the link between the consequentials from— . are you talking about the consequentials from the sugar levy or are you talking about— ? lynne neagle am: yes , because in other nations , it is being used to directly impact on initiatives to tackle obesity , whereas , we 've kind of put it here in wales into the general pot and it 's being used to fund a plethora of different things . dr frank atherton: well , that cuts to what i was talking about . my preference—it 's a personal view—is that hypothecation does n't really help us too much . i mean , what we need to look at is whether the programmes , the sorts of programmes that are being funded in england , or indeed in scotland , are working effectively , and if they are , are they being delivered here in wales ? we have looked very carefully at the plans that england and scotland have for tackling obesity and overweight , and we 've made a comparison with what we 're doing in wales , and our ambition in wales is to go further than those nations , in many ways . but i come back to the point that just linking the hypothecation of a relatively small amount of resource is likely to be less impactful than asking a question of public services boards and of the health system , indeed , about how much money , overall , are we putting into prevention . lynne neagle am: no , i recognise that , and i think we 're talking about additional resource . suzy . suzy davies am: i was just wondering whether you thought that there was a useful psychological link on the part of the public between saying , 'here 's a sugar levy ' , and 'it 's going to be used to help children and adults stay healthier . ' going into a pot , it actually makes it quite difficult to explain the purpose of the tax in the first place . so , i take your overall point , but in terms of the people who we 're trying to help in all this , actually creating a direct link might be quite helpful . dr frank atherton: you may be right . i 'm not a behavioural psychologist . we 'd have to ask— suzy davies am: neither am i. i 'm a person who eats a lot of sugar . [ laughter . ] dr frank atherton: your point 's taken . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: thanks . siân . sian gwenllian am: the last question from me , about partnership working . you 're putting an emphasis on the whole-system approach in implementing the plan , how are you going to create a system that co-ordinates action and drives change across relevant partners , avoiding a situation where it 's everyone 's role , but nobody 's responsibility ? how are you going to avoid that ? dr frank atherton: it 's a very important question , and one of the four strands in the consultation is exactly related to that , around leadership and drive nationally . i 'm not interested in producing a strategy that sits on a shelf . if you look around the world , there are plenty of obesity strategies . you may notice , by the way , that we 've chosen not to talk about an obesity strategy but a healthy weight strategy , because i think having a positive construct is really quite important to us here in wales . but leadership will be really important , and we will need some sort of structure to lead this , to provide oversight . i 'm not a great believer in creating new structures , so we do need something that will give that drive , but the leadership comes from the top down . we need political commitment to this , and that 's why i welcome the input from this committee . so , that needs to be assured . and then we need to make sure that the public sector generally is engaged in this , but it goes way beyond the public sector , of course , because we have to work with industry , and we have to work with communities , and we have to work with the public on this . so we need to think about our governance system for this and how we drive it forward . interestingly , we had quite a large discussion two days ago between health and social care , but also involving the third sector and some members of the public , around how can we drive prevention more generally . it was n't specifically on obesity , but of course obesity came up because it 's such a pressing issue . this question of governance was discussed quite extensively , and we do have governance systems , of course , in wales . we have public services boards , we have regional partnership boards , and how we can get those aligned behind this common agenda is really important . but i 'd like to see—and i know i 'm a public health professional , so i know that only maybe 10 per cent , 15 per cent , possibly 20 per cent of what makes and keeps us healthy as individuals and as communities can be driven through the health system ; but i would like the system to step up and take these kinds of issues more seriously as well . so i 'd be looking for local leadership through directors of public health and indeed through chief executives to work with their public services boards on this . so , we 'll need some sort of national oversight , absolutely , but we need local ownership and local leadership , too . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 've got some questions now from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . delivery of the plan will be led by a national implementation board that will be accountable to ministers . which minister do you believe it should be accountable to , or , given the complexity of obesity , should the board be directly accountable to the first minister ? dr frank atherton: ultimately , the first minister will be responsible for this and will want to have a strong oversight of this . it is often framed as a health issue , and the minister , vaughan gething , has a strong personal commitment to this , i know . we 've talked extensively with him and with sports and recreation colleagues about that , so there 's a link there . it does cut across all portfolios , and so this is an issue that i have discussed with cabinet , and that collective ownership is really important , and will be , because it ca n't just sit in one domain . i think what you do need to have is you do need to have a lead organisation or a lead ministry , and i would see health as—i work within health , so i 'm perhaps biased , but i would see health as leading this , but it needs broad ownership across government . janet finch-saunders am: i know my colleague siân gwenllian mentioned earlier targets and things , but i know in wales we 're not too good at collecting data . what data is currently available on childhood obesity and what metrics will be used to measure progress against the plan 's objectives ? dr frank atherton: well , of course , our main data source is the child measurement programme , which collects information on children entering school aged four or five . that 's our main source of information . if we look at that data , it shows us— . well , i 'm sure you 're familiar with the statistics , but it 'll be just under a third of children at that age who are overweight or obese— janet finch-saunders am: could i just ask—sorry to interrupt—how up to date is that ? dr frank atherton: the last survey was just last year . nathan cook: the data was published last week . dr frank atherton: yes , the lastest data was out last week . janet finch-saunders am: it is pretty up to date . dr frank atherton: so , it 's pretty up to date , and what it shows— . it 's not getting radically worse—there 's always statistical variation in these things—but it 's not getting any better . and , for the first time last year , we did look at the question not just of children who were overweight or obese , but we actually singled out the proportion who are obese , severely obese . so we have a figure for that for the first time , which is about 12 per cent , which is quite shocking , in a way . janet finch-saunders am: it is shocking . dr frank atherton: so , that 's our main source of information . does that answer your question ? janet finch-saunders am: yes , but how will any gaps in your data be addressed ? dr frank atherton: well , one of the questions that are often asked is : could we measure more on a longitudinal basis ? by that i mean in england , for example , children are measured at school entry and then again at year 11—at age 11 or 12. , that kind of age group . and so you do have a longitudinal view over time of what 's happening to children . i think that would be helpful to us in wales , and it 's one of the questions in the consultation about whether we should expand that . obviously , that would have significant resource implications , not just for the funding , but also for schools and for the system to deliver it . but it 's something that maybe would help us in terms of better understanding and better evaluation—the point that was made earlier . nathan cook: and the other data we do have is the millennium cohort study , which has been released , for 14 and 15-year-olds . that 's going to be— . we 're starting to think about how we can utilise some of that data , looking at that longitudinal picture around children as well , which will be really helpful . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . you 've answered my next question . thank you . lynne neagle am: can i just ask about the child measurement programme ? the strategy commits to looking at whether we can have a second measurement taking place in wales . can you just tell us a bit more about your thinking on that and when you would see a second measurement taking place and how you would use that data ? dr frank atherton: i touched on that just now , but personally i do think it would be helpful to have more information . it 's always the case , there 's always a trade-off between the cost of getting that information and the value of the information . so , the question of how it would be used would be really important . there is still a lot that we do n't know . we know an awful lot about obesity and being overweight and the causes of it , but we do n't really have a very clear understanding , in wales at least , of the point at which children start to become overweight . although we know that overweight children tend to go on to become overweight adults , we do n't know what proportion of them between school entry and later teenage years—what those changes are . so , it would help us to have some better understanding , which would help to direct some of our initiatives . i 'd be generally supportive of the principle . we 'll wait and see what comes out in the consultation , and it 's something that we need to give thought to , but we do have to trade off the additionality of what the information would give us with the cost of doing that , of course . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on healthy environments from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . in the draft plan , some of the measures in there suggest legislating for restricting price promotions and banning energy drinks , and that sort of thing . do you think that , if we go down that road , there 's going to be time within this assembly to introduce such legislation ? and , if not , what do you think might be the timescale for such legislation ? dr frank atherton: it may well be that there are things in wales that we might wish to legislate on , and you 've mentioned two of them , and they 're good examples . we would , obviously , need to undertake quite detailed consultation on those and , in a way , we need to mirror what 's happening in england and in scotland to some degree around the consultations they 're having on energy drinks . we also need to influence the issues that are not devolved to us and we seek to do that . as to your question of legislative time , i 'm not really in a position to answer that . what i could say is that legislation may well be one of the outcomes of the consultation . there may well be things that we wish to choose to legislate on . the timing of that will have to be subject to other pressures , and i come back to the point that legislation , of course , is one of the tools that we 've got—we need to deploy them all . dawn bowden am: sure , i understand that , that you could do other things . i know— . we 've heard from the government , on other calls for legislation , that the programme 's very tight , certainly for this term , so i was just wondering whether we might get that in , but okay . if i turn now to the planning system—and this might not be something that you have great deal of knowledge of ; i 'd just welcome your view on this , because , when we discussed with stakeholders , we talked about whether the planning system , for instance , could be used to , as an example , restrict hot food takeaways around schools and so on . would that be a measure that you would support , something like that ? dr frank atherton: i think it 's definitely something we want to look at and , of course , that question is asked in the consultation , so we would like to know people 's views on that . it 's an interesting one . i think there is a question—a really important question—about how we can use the planning system more effectively . i 've discussed with nathan on a number of occasions , with planning colleagues in welsh government and in local authorities , about the art of the possible , let 's say . there may be things that we could think about and we want to get those ideas through the consultation . the specific question around takeaways , particularly takeaways near schools , is often asked . i was very interested to see , up in the north-east , some time ago , that one of the local authorities up there did put a moratorium on the opening of new fast-food venues near to schools , or indeed in areas where levels of obesity and overweight were particularly high . i understand london is now—some london boroughs are now—experimenting with that as well . so , that gave me comfort , because maybe there are powers within local authorities that can be used more effectively . i think my view at the moment is that the jury 's kind of out on whether those are effective and how effective they 're going to be . but the fact that we have some initiatives around the uk does give us an opportunity to study that and to learn from experience perhaps and then , if it is shown to be beneficial , to think about that here in wales , yes . dawn bowden am: sure , because it will only be one of a suite of measures anyway . of itself , it would n't address the problem , but , added to other initiatives , i guess it would . can i just ask you briefly , then , about community sport infrastructure and , in particular , of new schools ? so , welsh government , as you know , has ploughed a huge amount of money into the twenty-first century schools programme . what we heard when we spoke to stakeholders recently , particularly headteachers , was that , in some of the new schools that have been built , we have n't had changing rooms and toilet facilities , for instance , built into the new buildings . so , if we 're going to try and utilise these buildings for general community activity to get kids and the wider public , actually , more active , do you think that 's something that we ought to be building in ? again , not your particular direct area of responsibility , but something that you might have an input into , is that , when we 're developing schools , we should be making sure that they have those kinds of facilities so that they become accessible to the wider public . is that something that you would be prepared to make a recommendation around ? dr frank atherton: well , it 's certainly a fascinating area and one that i think has a lot of potential . it goes— . you 're right to raise it in the context of schools , and i can understand why this committee would , but i think it goes beyond that , actually , into all developments in the public sector and how they 're developed and whether we 're building health into our environment , which perhaps is your starting point . one of the things that i was really pleased to see in terms of the public health ( wales ) act 2017 that was passed a couple of years ago was the use of health impact assessment as a tool , and we 're still working on how that will inform policy and how that will be applied in issues such as policy decisions through government , but also in more downstream issues about how we create the public infrastructure that the public can and should be using . and so i would like to see the use of health impact assessments to a much greater degree to inform those kinds of decisions . if you apply that kind of lens and you take the point , which is inherent in your question , i think , that schools are not just for kids , they 're for communities , then you would—it would lead you to a conclusion that you would perhaps design and build them in a different way . so , on a personal basis , i would certainly support your view that we should be looking to use the sports environment in schools in the same way as we use leisure centres . there are all kinds of barriers in there , and i understand all of that , and it 's not really my field , exactly as you say , but , as a matter of principle , i think it 's a good one to pursue . dawn bowden am: okay . thank you . and widening it out to other public services buildings as well . dr frank atherton: indeed . dawn bowden am: yes . okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 're going to move on now to talk about how we create healthy settings . i 've got some questions from suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you very much . yes , perhaps if we could just stay in this area of education just for a moment , i think we all agree that healthy habits acquired early on probably tend to last quite well , so i wonder if you can tell us a little bit about the healthy and sustainable preschool scheme and whether you think some timescales should be made public about what you expect the achievements from that scheme to be . but , in particular , i was struck with what you said about local leadership , and i just want you to bear that in mind in answering the next question , which is about the foundation phase . you 're probably aware that this committee has heard from various school leaders that they 're struggling in some cases to meet the ratio of staffing for the foundation phase , which potentially compromises the purpose of it in terms of physical activity . i 'm just wondering how the strategy development board is considering that at the moment . is it something that 's come on the radar for the board ? is it something you 're thinking about ? and , if so , who do you think should be responsible for pinning that down a little bit ? because this is education , not health , and— . dr frank atherton: well , look , i 've got to confess to you , i 'm not an educationist , and so the question on staffing numbers in schools is not one that i have been asked to give a deal of consideration to , and it has n't really been discussed , i do n't believe , in the context of development of the strategy . if there is a specific point around that that the committee would like to make in terms of a response into the consultation , which i presume you 'll be making , then we 'd be happy to consider that . as to healthy preschools , i do n't know , nathan may have some view on that . i 've not been closely involved with the work . we have standards and we perhaps need to think about how we tighten those standards and how we—enforce is n't the right word , but how we implement and make sure that those standards are properly implemented , because you 're absolutely right to say that habits are developed early in life . that 's in the preschool ; it 's also in the home of course , and then later in the school . so , we do need to look at all of those as settings and are there more things we can do within those settings to drive healthier behaviours—that 's exactly why we need the consultation . nathan cook: but i would say , through that scheme as well , we 've really got a really good bank of preschools that are actually doing some really great work in this area as well . so , i think the more we can understand the successes that some of those environments are having—you know , how we can roll those out and work across other settings to create that wider impact as well is going to be really important . suzy davies am: okay . thank you . what i 'm thinking about is expectations at that level will be expectations at a slightly older level , which will be contained within the foundation phase . and while you 're quite right—obviously , parents have a role in this , or families—there will be , particularly with the introduction of the new curriculum , certain expectations on schools to provide not just healthy environments but to actively work towards well-being and healthy weight in children and things . and that 's why i asked you about local leadership , because , if it fails for reasons that have nothing to do with the plan at foundation phase , it 's going to fail further up the school years as well . i think it might be something that the board might want to consider here , because at some point there 'll be an accountability question and we will want to know how 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' fits in with the new plans for the new curriculum , and whether it 's merely persuasive and influential or whether it has the weight to place some obligations on school leaders about what they do in their schools . so , this connection , i think , is quite an important one , and , if the strategy development board could consider that , i think it would be very helpful , because this does n't exist in a vacuum . dr frank atherton: well , i 'd certainly be delighted to take that back and we can look at it in terms of how we move from the consultation into the final strategy . it 's certainly a point we can try and look at . suzy davies am: because we will want to know who to ask : 'you 're the accountable person—why has something worked , or not worked ? ' we will need to know that at some point . dr frank atherton: just building on nathan 's point , some of the schools—i know it 's schools rather than the preschools , and i take your point , but some of the schools we 've been working with have absolutely brilliant models of good practice and good local leadership . i remember the minister actually at the launch , and one of the schools was represented there , and they presented—the school came and some of the children came and presented—to the whole audience about the activities that they were undertaking in their school around physical activity and on healthy eating , and it was such a model of good behaviour the question was , 'well , why not everywhere ? ' , so that probably speaks to your question . suzy davies am: okay , well , thank you for that commitment anyway . lynne neagle am: and have you had any discussions , then , with education officials around things like teacher training and cpd , because you 'll be aware the health and social care committee has made a number of recommendations in this area ? it 's crucial that we skill up the staff to develop these things in an appropriate way , is n't it ? dr frank atherton: well , we certainly discuss with education colleagues in welsh government . there 's more we need to do in terms of that , because you 're absolutely right : there 's something about building the whole of the workforce—education is really important , but elsewhere as well ; it 's about how do we really make every contact count , you know , that construct . so , everybody who 's working in the health and social care system should have a role in this ; everybody who works in education , whether it 's the old— . do we still have dinner ladies ? or teachers , you know , they have a role to play in supporting children to be as healthy as they possibly can . and , actually , i see them , chair , as a really essential part of the public health workforce . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . suzy , are you going to do your curriculum one ? suzy davies am: well , i 've bound it in together , but that final point you make about teachers being part of the answer to this , they 're already under a range of pressures : is it fair to make them accountable for whether this works or not ? or should that local leadership lie somewhere else ? i do n't expect you to pin down a person today . dr frank atherton: i would n't like to blame a teacher or performance manage them on the proportion of their children in their class who are overweight . that would clearly be nonsense , would n't it ? but they are part of the solution , and so the accountability lies further up the chain , does n't it ? the question i think we would have , and public services boards might well ask , and the local education authorities may well ask , is : how effective is any particular school at driving forwards these healthy behaviours ? suzy davies am: okay , thank you . i 'll leave some questions for hefin . lynne neagle am: hefin . hefin david am: is that all right , chair ? lynne neagle am: you 've got the floor , hefin . hefin david am: thank you , chair . you make a commitment to embedding physical activity at an early stage in primary school education . what would that look like ? dr frank atherton: just in terms of the physical activity , i have to say it 's a really important dimension and we need to move further on . we know not enough of our children are physically active and they 're not meeting the various guidelines , so it 's really important . it does n't actually have as much of an impact on weight as the dietary issue . i 'd just say that . it 's really important for all sorts of reasons . it does have an impact on healthy weight , but it has a huge impact in terms of socialisation , in terms of mental health issues , et cetera , you know . so—i 'm sorry , i 've lost track of your question . nathan cook: i 'd just say that one thing we have got in train is , obviously , sport wales , public health wales and natural resources wales—we have them working together as a collaborative at the moment to look at how their joint delivery on physical activity can be taken forward more efficiently . so , one of the things they are looking at is obviously the schools programmes they do through eco-schools , the welsh network of healthy schools and the sports programme to really think about that physical activity and how we can have better join up in terms of the programmes that we 're already delivering as well . hefin david am: with that in mind , i 'm going to confess to you , chief medical officer , i did anything in school i could to avoid physical education lessons . i hated it . i did n't feel engaged with it . yet , two weeks ago , i played for the assembly rugby team—i wanted to get that in . the school sports survey , that would suggest that we 're still not hitting those targets with children . how can we get children more engaged with physical education in ways that— ? i felt completely alienated in school . dr frank atherton: well , you 're right , and many people go through that same journey and come to physical activity later in life , and that 's great if they do that . the sad reality is that many people do n't , and we also know that there are issues around the dropping off , particularly for girls , of physical activity towards the teenage years . so , there are specific moments that we need to understand . we do have a lot of information about these kinds of things . public health wales is very good at collating the information . we do need to turn that into programmes . i mean , at the heart of it , it 's about making sports and physical activity enjoyable and attractive to people . sometimes that 's easier , i sense , for boys than for girls , but we need to tailor things to different audiences . hefin david am: yes , that 's the trick , is n't it ? it 's about finding out what children enjoy doing . that could be quite a wide and varied range of things . is that the key ? dawn bowden am: it 's not all about organised team sports . hefin david am: yes . as dawn said , it 's not just about organised team sports . there are some very individual activities you could do . dr frank atherton: absolutely , yes . and that 's where i think— . i 'm delighted that sport wales has moved beyond . it 's not just about elite sports ; it 's about getting everybody engaged and active in sports , and that partnership with public health wales that nathan talked about is really important , because we need a population approach to driving physical activity . hefin david am: so , do you think , with that in mind , we need statutory guidance for schools on physical education ? dr frank atherton: again , i 'd look to the consultation as to whether there was an appetite for any kind of guidance . it may well be that that is something that could be considered . hefin david am: okay . and finally , with regard to free school meals to all pupils in primary and secondary schools , do you think that extending that to all pupils would be beneficial in providing a more varied diet for pupils ? dr frank atherton: i do n't have a personal view on that . i think it 's the quality of the food that kids are getting , whether that comes from home or through school , and whether it 's free or whether it 's paid for . i think it 's the quality of the food that we need to focus on . the question of children being hungry at school is a really important one and needs to be addressed at a national level . i think that 's a— hefin david am: so , you think that 's more about the provision of food for those who might not have access to it than providing a varied diet . dr frank atherton: i think it 's important that children have access to food , absolutely , if that 's your question , but we also need to look at the quality of the food and what 's in that food offer . hefin david am: but you do n't necessarily think universal provision would— . dr frank atherton: i do n't have a clear view on that . i know there 's a larger debate about that . hefin david am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: i 've got some supplementaries from janet and then suzy . janet finch-saunders am: yes . i 've been around some amazing schools in my own constituency , where they 've got proper canteen facilities for pupils and really , really good produce in the meals . however , there 's probably only a third having school meals ; the rest are packed lunches . and , to be honest , i 've been very surprised and shocked at what i 've seen of the quality of the food in the packed lunches . nobody can really police , and i would n't want to see parents being policed over what goes in a packed lunch , so if there is data out there to suggest that there 's a larger percentage of parents providing packed lunched that are really not good at all , then there is some merit to be said for what hefin is— . me , personally , i 'd love to see the introduction of universal school meals . i think it 's been a very retrograde step , going backwards . would you be willing to carry out any research ? dr frank atherton: so , i mean , your point about food that 's brought in in the packed lunches is a really important one , and i 've talked to some headteachers as well about this . we could go down a route of guidance and prohibition , but that gets you into the role of nanny in chief and i do n't really see that as my role or government 's role , and i do n't think it 's effective either . do you remember— ? you must have seen on tv—i think it was in scotland ; i do n't know if it 's happened in wales—parents pushing the fish and chip packets through the school railings . we do n't need to get into that . what i have seen , though , is some really good innovative practice in schools where , for example , they reward children for bringing the healthy options . schools can give guidance to parents about what would be a healthy lunch and what sort of things might be expected to be seen in the lunch box . and you can reward children , and children do respond to rewards . so , i 've seen some of those approaches that have transformed , actually , the offer of what comes in school boxes . but i think just banning chocolate bars and crisps in the packed lunch is unlikely to be successful . janet finch-saunders am: we ca n't do that . so , my point to the question was : is n't there some merit , perhaps , about all children being equal and eating similar good-quality food in schools ? dr frank atherton: yes . that gets you back to the question about universal school meals . janet finch-saunders am: perhaps some of that £56 million sugar tax , even . who knows ? lynne neagle am: suzy . suzy davies am: yes . mine is just a short question . the draft plan commits , does n't it , to updating the healthy eating in schools regulations—the 2013 regulations ? i appreciate this is a consultation , but what is it that needs changing in those regulations at the moment , just to give us a bit of steer ? nathan cook: it 's mainly on sugar content , so , obviously , they do n't adhere to current scientific advisory committee on nutrition guidelines around sugar levels . so , what we 'd want to consider is , you know , what we need to be careful of is unintended consequences of changing that , as well , if you see a shift to more kids bringing in school packed lunches as well . so , i think we want to consider the best way of doing that and consider through the consultation how we can go about it . suzy davies am: all right . so , it 's very pertinent to janet 's question , in that way . okay , so it 's mainly about sugar , but it could be about other things as well . okay . thanks . lynne neagle am: okay . the next questions are from janet anyway ; firstly , on the clinical obesity pathway . janet finch-saunders am: the 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' plan commits to a review of the clinical obesity pathway . what are the time frames for this review , and what do you think are the basic essentials of a clinical obesity pathway for children and young people ? dr frank atherton: we do have a pathway for managing overweight , and that 's been in place since about 2010 , i believe , and we do need to bring that up to date in terms of current knowledge and experiences . we 've challenged public health wales ; we 've asked public health wales to undertake a review of that pathway , and they are going through that process now . i 'm not sure of exactly the time frame that we have given them for that . nathan cook: we were asking them to review the pathway before we launch the final strategy in october because , obviously , what we want is for that to inform what that final strategy looks like . so , we 'll be looking probably early autumn for them to report back on that . dr frank atherton: the second point of your question about what are the essential elements , i mean , they are already there ; we need to tweak them and we need to make sure that they 're properly delivered . but it 's a tiered approach , so , having access to information through schools and through communities and into families is part of the first step of that . and then , if children are overweight , it 's a question about how they 're identified . there are questions about the ability of the public to recognise large children , so there may be an issue there . but when children are running into issues around weight , what kind of interventions can be put in , either through primary care or through communities through health visitors , et cetera ? and then of course we do have—and we 've started to shine a light on this , have n't we—the very overweight children . i do n't think we have enough in the way of targeted support to be able to support those . there are programmes available , but they 're perhaps not universally provided . so , i think there 's something about looking at our whole pathway , mapping out what the current evidence now shows us is needed , and then thinking about what is our provision in wales and what do we need to do to bring that up to the level of the places that are the best . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . the draft plan recognises the importance of the first 1,000 days , but it does n't appear to include any new proposals to help parents to enable lifestyle changes . it lists existing initiatives , such as the healthy child wales programme and breastfeeding action plan . are you satisfied that the draft plan does enough to address the influence that family and parents have on children 's healthy weight behaviours , particularly in the first 1,000 days ? dr frank atherton: well , the first 1,000 days are really critically in shaping lives , as i 'm sure you 'd agree . we are absolutely open to any other suggestions that the public or this committee have as to what more we can and should do . there are a number of things , the sorts of programmes you 've mentioned , that i think could be more effective . we 're currently looking at breastfeeding because it starts before birth , actually . we know that children who are breastfed are less likely to suffer from obesity in childhood and , indeed , to go on to be obese adults . so , we do need to go further on that . we do have some programmes—healthy working wales , et cetera—that need to be improved . if there are other interventions in other areas that we need to take , then we 'd be delighted to hear what they are , but those are the ones that have jumped out so far . nathan cook: can i just say— ? one of the proposals we 're looking for is , obviously , we know that during pregnancy it 's a really critical time when we can actually look to work with mothers . we know from looking at some of the behaviour change that it 's actually a really critical point when new mothers really start thinking about their lives , wanting the best for their child and their families . so , what we are thinking about is how we could develop some kind of approaches to that going forward . but we know our healthy start scheme is also a good lever for us , just in terms of how we can look to improve that kind of dietary offer at the earliest stage as well . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . finally , we know that for some families day-to-day challenges can make it difficult for them to make healthy choices , particularly for those on lower incomes and/or maybe using food banks . could the welsh government take bolder action to better support low-income families to eat healthily ? dr frank atherton: well , you 've touched on a really important point about inequalities because overweight and obesity is not evenly distributed across our population . it absolutely is more prevalent in more socioeconomically deprived communities , and that 's something that should really concern us all . so , it gets you to questions of availability of fresh food and produce ; it gets you to questions of formulation of products and whether value brands are less healthy than more premium brands . so , it cuts across all of those issues that we talked about in terms of settings and in terms of environment earlier . there is something about the affordability of good-quality healthy food that we need to think about . we do need to think in broad terms—broader terms than just obesity , but we do need to think in broad terms—about how we create a society where families have the wherewithal to lead healthy lives , and that gets you to really important questions about the minimum wage and income poverty . there 's no doubt in my mind—i 'm a public health professional—and there 's no doubt in my mind that economic success and health success go hand in hand . so , you speak to a very deep question there . in terms of what we can do through this particular consultation , there are some things in there about providing better access , but without tackling some of those deeper determinants of health , their impact will necessarily be limited . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: just finally from me , then , you referred earlier to the importance of making every contact count , but some stakeholders have told the committee that they struggle to do that because of difficulties in availability of people to refer to . is that a situation that you recognise and what , really , can we do to improve that situation ? dr frank atherton: well , it depends what you mean as to where to refer to . so , the health system obviously needs to respond to this issue . what we 're seeing across the nhs is a gradual transformation in primary care so that primary care is no longer about going to see your gp , it 's about going to see a practice where you have a range of health professionals . would i like to see more dietetic support , for example , in that setting ? absolutely i would . i think we need to think in terms of that pathway that we were talking about earlier , about access to that kind of advice and support , which can head off people getting into problems and kids getting into problems with weight issues . so , that question of redesign of the pathway really speaks to , i think , your point about , 'well , where do people go when they have problems with their weight ? ' that 's true for adults and it 's true for children as well . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . are there any other questions from members ? no . okay . well , can i thank you both very much for your attendance ? it 's been a really productive session . we appreciate your time . you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy in due course , but thank you again . dr frank atherton: we 'll do that . thank you , chair , and thank you to the committee , because getting some input into the consultation from children 's perspectives , this would be one of the routes we would absolutely welcome . thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much . item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the welsh health specialised services committee on camhs tier 4 provision . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for health and social services also on camhs in-patient provision . paper to note 3 is a letter from the children commissioner for wales on tier 4 camhs provision . paper to note 4 is a letter from qualifications wales to the minister for education on qualifications for the new curriculum . paper to note 5 is a letter from me to the minister for education on the development of the new curriculum . paper to note 6 is a letter from me to the minister for education seeking clarification on the draft additional learning needs code . paper to note 7 is a letter from me to the minister for education seeking clarification on the response to our brexit report . paper to note 8 is a letter from the equality and human rights commission on a cumulative impact assessment briefing for committee , which has been offered . paper to note 9 is a letter from the chair of the petitions committee on a national taskforce for children ’ s mental health . paper to note 10 is a letter to the secretary of state for exiting the european union from the children ’ s commissioners for england , scotland , wales and northern ireland on the implications of brexit for children . there are a few that i 'd like to return to in private , but are members happy to note those ? thank you . okay . item 4 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? suzy davies am: yes . there 's somebody up there . lynne neagle am: thank you .

dr frank atherton first gave a very latest data showing that under a third of children at four or five are overweight or obese . the data showed that the situation was not getting radically worse but also not getting any better . they have a figure for the severely obese for the first time , which is about 12 per cent , which is quite shocking , in a way .

what did dr frank atherton 's answer to how would any gaps in their data be addressed ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from michelle brown and jack sargeant ; there are no substitutions . can i ask if members have any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . we 'll move on , then , to item 2 , which is our scrutiny of the 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' draft strategy , and i 'm very pleased to welcome dr frank atherton , the chief medical officer for wales , and nathan cook , who is the head of the healthy and active branch at welsh government . thank you , both , for attending this morning . we 're very much looking forward to hearing what you 've got to say . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions . if i can just start by asking about the fact that 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' is an all-age strategy , really , and how confident you are that it will deliver for children and young people . dr frank atherton: well , we 're very confident . i mean , it has to , quite clearly . we do need to think about the present generation , the problems faced by the current generation . we have high prevalence of overweight and obesity among adults—we know that , and we ca n't walk away from that because that 's translating into demand on health services . but we have to take a focus , a future generation 's focus , almost , on the next generation . i do n't write off the current generation , we ca n't afford to do that , but we do need to think about what can we do that would be different for the next generation so that they do n't get into the sorts of problems that we 're currently seeing with overweight and obesity . we know that the consequences of that for our young people are going to be enormous if we do n't do something and something quite soon . we know that overweight children go on to become overweight adults , unfortunately , and that brings all the consequences of multiple disease issues—diabetes is often cited—cancer risk et cetera . so , we have to focus on children , and , in fact , during the consultation , we 've been very clear that we need to engage with children and young people as well . perhaps we 'll get into that at some point , chair , but , yes , i can give you that assurance . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . what my follow-up question , really , is : can you just tell us what kind of engagement you 've had with children and young people to inform the draft strategy ? dr frank atherton: well , nathan may be able to influence some of the detail , but in broad terms , we have discussed with young people in a number of fora . in fact , i was delighted that we had a young person , evie morgan , a schoolgirl from mid wales , who came to the joint launch on the consultation . she met the minister there and gave a very good personal account of her views on obesity and overweight . we 've been visiting a number of schools during the consultation process . i 'm visiting a school , either this week or next week , at treorchy , to talk with teachers and young people there . obviously , we 're hopeful that schools and young people will contribute to the consultation as well . so , we 've had quite good input , i would say , from children and young people . there is always more we can do we and we want to hear those voices . nathan cook: i was going to say , we 've also had a session with youth ambassadors as well , and what we 've actually produced for the consultation is not just the children and young people 's version , but also a toolkit in terms of getting schools really engaged and involved in terms of the work that we want them to do to feed into this as well . so , we 've already had some really good responses from a lot of youth group and schools already . lynne neagle am: and you 've got a structured programme , have you , to roll that out ? okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on leadership , and the first questions are from siân gwenllian . sian gwenllian am: good morning . i 'll be speaking in welsh . the minister for health said yesterday , in answering a question from me on the chamber floor , that you gave him advice not to have a target in terms of reducing obesity among children . could you confirm that that 's what your advice was and tell us why you do n't think that a target is needed ? dr frank atherton: my advice was not that we do n't need a target—we may well need a target , and that 's one of the issues we need to consult on—but that the target that had been adopted in england and in scotland to halve the prevalence of obesity in children was more aspirational than deliverable , and that if we are to choose a target in wales , then we need to balance deliverability with challenge . we need a challenging environment . so , there is something about performance management , because i would be looking to not just the health system but the health and care system and to public services boards to think about how they 're delivering on this , and i think we can use targets to that . but they are one tool in the box that i would think we could use , and part of the consultation is to ask that question—'if we are to go down a route in wales of choosing a target , what might that look like ? ' sian gwenllian am: okay . so , to be clear , you 're not ruling out that maybe we would need a target . dr frank atherton: it 's certainly something that we could consider in terms of the final strategy . sian gwenllian am: and is that your opinion too ? nathan cook: yes . sian gwenllian am: okay . well , that is contrary to what i was told yesterday on the floor of the chamber by the minister , but there we go . i 'm glad to hear that you 're not ruling out having a target , because without a target , without something to aim for , how do we know that we 're getting there ? dr frank atherton: i think your point about evaluation is really important . whatever we produce at the end of this process—and we 're looking to produce a final strategy towards the autumn—we do need to have a strong evaluation . so , some metrics in there , it would seem , would be appropriate , but what those are , what the nature of those are , do we frame them as targets or ambitions—that 's the point we need to consult on . sian gwenllian am: okay . and the other point , of course , is the investment . if the government is going to be successful in terms of the aim of reducing childhood obesity , then it needs to fund and support the actions . have you made an assessment of the level of investment needed to implement this plan ? dr frank atherton: resourcing will be important . we currently do make investments in a number of areas that relate to child health generally , and , of course , obesity and overweight in particular . so , the question of resourcing is important . now , we ca n't quantify an absolute amount of resource that will be needed to deliver until we know exactly what 's going to come out of the consultation and what actions we might want to deliver to a greater degree in wales . a figure of £8 million to £10 million a year has been banded around as a broad kind of area of what we might need to invest , but that would need to be drawn from existing programmes . we need to look at existing programmes , how effective they are . can we make them more effective ? can we get better value from them ? and there may well be a case for new investment , and that 's a question , of course , that would need to be discussed with ministers when we 're producing the final strategy . nathan cook: but i think a key consideration as well is we already know there is investment across health boards in some kind of obesity-related services . so , i think what we really need to think about across wales is how we can drive greater scale , how we can look at current programmes in terms of making sure that they 're better evaluated , and how we can make sure that we 're also drawing up on the existing resources and capacity out there as well . sian gwenllian am: and does the level of investment depend on what the target is—what the goal is ? dr frank atherton: i do n't think you can necessarily just link the two . the issue of resourcing is one that 's there irrespective of whether we choose to put a target in place . sian gwenllian am: but how would we know that it 's being used effectively if there is n't something to aim for ? dr frank atherton: which brings you back to the question about evaluation . we need proper evaluation of the various programmes that we have . sian gwenllian am: yes , but without a target , how can you properly evaluate ? if you do n't know what you 're trying to do , how can you properly evaluate ? anyway , you 're open to suggestions about having a target , which is great . would you agree that government could use the revenue that 's being produced through the levy on soft drinks towards some of these efforts to— ? dr frank atherton: well , of course , there are some consequentials that are coming to the welsh government as part of the levy on sugary soft drinks . that funding , of course , is less than we had anticipated , and that reflects , actually , a success story because industry is reformulating , and so the amount of sugar in soft drinks is already starting to decrease , which is a good thing . but to your question : should we use the funding ? well , of course we should use funding . i 'm not personally in favour of hypothecation , i think i 'm more interested in the totality of resource that goes into public health programmes than into marginal resource . there are , of course , a number of initiatives that we currently fund through the general revenue . and when i think about obesity , i do n't just think about the relatively small marginal amounts of money that come in through whatever source , but i think about the totality of the £7 billion we spend in health and social care and how we can divert and channel some of that towards broad prevention initiatives in general , and towards tackling being overweight and obesity in particular . sian gwenllian am: you 're saying that it 's less than expected . could you give us any kind of figure ? dr frank atherton: i 'm sorry , could you repeat the question ? sian gwenllian am: you say that there is less money that 's come in through these consequentials from the levy , can you mention some sort of figure ? dr frank atherton: the figure that i have in mind is about £56 million that 's coming in in terms of revenue over a two-year period . but i 'd have to confirm that with the committee . what the anticipated— . when the sugar levy was first brought in , there was some modelling at uk level about what level of revenue that would bring , but it was based on the amount of sugar that was currently then in drinks and the fact that the sugar has reduced in drinks , i mean , the total amount available to the uk is less and hence our consequentials are less . nathan may have some precise figures . nathan cook: yes , i was going to say , there was a mid-year report done where the levy has raised £150 million to date since coming into force in april , and the original forecast was £520 million a year . so , i think that shows the amount of work that 's been done by industry around reformulation . sian gwenllian am: and the consequentials of that ? that is the consequential—£150 million . nathan cook: on a uk level . sian gwenllian am: yes , so what 's the welsh consequential ? lynne neagle am: fifty-six . sian gwenllian am: fifty-six ? gosh , that sounds a lot . anyway , it 's a good sum of money and you 're talking about investing £8 million to £10 million . so , obviously , you know , we can be more ambitious because there is money in that pot if that money was ring-fenced for this particular scheme . dr frank atherton: well , the resource is going to be a real issue that we need to address , and i think as nathan has said , there is funding of various initiatives currently in the system , and we need to look at that and make that as effective as possible . will there be a need for some additional resource ? there may well be , and that 's a question that we 'll have to look at in terms of the strategy when we develop it and have a discussion with ministers about the level of resourcing . lynne neagle am: can i just ask on that before siân moves on ? what assessment have you made of how that money is being spent in other uk nations ? because my understanding is that the money is being used in other uk nations to directly impact on obesity . have you given any consideration to— ? as i understand it , that money now is being dispersed around a plethora of programmes , including the transformation programme , and what i found very odd , really , was vaccination , which is surely the core business of the nhs . have you got any view on that ? dr frank atherton: i 'm not sure i understand your point , chair , in terms of the link between the consequentials from— . are you talking about the consequentials from the sugar levy or are you talking about— ? lynne neagle am: yes , because in other nations , it is being used to directly impact on initiatives to tackle obesity , whereas , we 've kind of put it here in wales into the general pot and it 's being used to fund a plethora of different things . dr frank atherton: well , that cuts to what i was talking about . my preference—it 's a personal view—is that hypothecation does n't really help us too much . i mean , what we need to look at is whether the programmes , the sorts of programmes that are being funded in england , or indeed in scotland , are working effectively , and if they are , are they being delivered here in wales ? we have looked very carefully at the plans that england and scotland have for tackling obesity and overweight , and we 've made a comparison with what we 're doing in wales , and our ambition in wales is to go further than those nations , in many ways . but i come back to the point that just linking the hypothecation of a relatively small amount of resource is likely to be less impactful than asking a question of public services boards and of the health system , indeed , about how much money , overall , are we putting into prevention . lynne neagle am: no , i recognise that , and i think we 're talking about additional resource . suzy . suzy davies am: i was just wondering whether you thought that there was a useful psychological link on the part of the public between saying , 'here 's a sugar levy ' , and 'it 's going to be used to help children and adults stay healthier . ' going into a pot , it actually makes it quite difficult to explain the purpose of the tax in the first place . so , i take your overall point , but in terms of the people who we 're trying to help in all this , actually creating a direct link might be quite helpful . dr frank atherton: you may be right . i 'm not a behavioural psychologist . we 'd have to ask— suzy davies am: neither am i. i 'm a person who eats a lot of sugar . [ laughter . ] dr frank atherton: your point 's taken . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: thanks . siân . sian gwenllian am: the last question from me , about partnership working . you 're putting an emphasis on the whole-system approach in implementing the plan , how are you going to create a system that co-ordinates action and drives change across relevant partners , avoiding a situation where it 's everyone 's role , but nobody 's responsibility ? how are you going to avoid that ? dr frank atherton: it 's a very important question , and one of the four strands in the consultation is exactly related to that , around leadership and drive nationally . i 'm not interested in producing a strategy that sits on a shelf . if you look around the world , there are plenty of obesity strategies . you may notice , by the way , that we 've chosen not to talk about an obesity strategy but a healthy weight strategy , because i think having a positive construct is really quite important to us here in wales . but leadership will be really important , and we will need some sort of structure to lead this , to provide oversight . i 'm not a great believer in creating new structures , so we do need something that will give that drive , but the leadership comes from the top down . we need political commitment to this , and that 's why i welcome the input from this committee . so , that needs to be assured . and then we need to make sure that the public sector generally is engaged in this , but it goes way beyond the public sector , of course , because we have to work with industry , and we have to work with communities , and we have to work with the public on this . so we need to think about our governance system for this and how we drive it forward . interestingly , we had quite a large discussion two days ago between health and social care , but also involving the third sector and some members of the public , around how can we drive prevention more generally . it was n't specifically on obesity , but of course obesity came up because it 's such a pressing issue . this question of governance was discussed quite extensively , and we do have governance systems , of course , in wales . we have public services boards , we have regional partnership boards , and how we can get those aligned behind this common agenda is really important . but i 'd like to see—and i know i 'm a public health professional , so i know that only maybe 10 per cent , 15 per cent , possibly 20 per cent of what makes and keeps us healthy as individuals and as communities can be driven through the health system ; but i would like the system to step up and take these kinds of issues more seriously as well . so i 'd be looking for local leadership through directors of public health and indeed through chief executives to work with their public services boards on this . so , we 'll need some sort of national oversight , absolutely , but we need local ownership and local leadership , too . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 've got some questions now from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . delivery of the plan will be led by a national implementation board that will be accountable to ministers . which minister do you believe it should be accountable to , or , given the complexity of obesity , should the board be directly accountable to the first minister ? dr frank atherton: ultimately , the first minister will be responsible for this and will want to have a strong oversight of this . it is often framed as a health issue , and the minister , vaughan gething , has a strong personal commitment to this , i know . we 've talked extensively with him and with sports and recreation colleagues about that , so there 's a link there . it does cut across all portfolios , and so this is an issue that i have discussed with cabinet , and that collective ownership is really important , and will be , because it ca n't just sit in one domain . i think what you do need to have is you do need to have a lead organisation or a lead ministry , and i would see health as—i work within health , so i 'm perhaps biased , but i would see health as leading this , but it needs broad ownership across government . janet finch-saunders am: i know my colleague siân gwenllian mentioned earlier targets and things , but i know in wales we 're not too good at collecting data . what data is currently available on childhood obesity and what metrics will be used to measure progress against the plan 's objectives ? dr frank atherton: well , of course , our main data source is the child measurement programme , which collects information on children entering school aged four or five . that 's our main source of information . if we look at that data , it shows us— . well , i 'm sure you 're familiar with the statistics , but it 'll be just under a third of children at that age who are overweight or obese— janet finch-saunders am: could i just ask—sorry to interrupt—how up to date is that ? dr frank atherton: the last survey was just last year . nathan cook: the data was published last week . dr frank atherton: yes , the lastest data was out last week . janet finch-saunders am: it is pretty up to date . dr frank atherton: so , it 's pretty up to date , and what it shows— . it 's not getting radically worse—there 's always statistical variation in these things—but it 's not getting any better . and , for the first time last year , we did look at the question not just of children who were overweight or obese , but we actually singled out the proportion who are obese , severely obese . so we have a figure for that for the first time , which is about 12 per cent , which is quite shocking , in a way . janet finch-saunders am: it is shocking . dr frank atherton: so , that 's our main source of information . does that answer your question ? janet finch-saunders am: yes , but how will any gaps in your data be addressed ? dr frank atherton: well , one of the questions that are often asked is : could we measure more on a longitudinal basis ? by that i mean in england , for example , children are measured at school entry and then again at year 11—at age 11 or 12. , that kind of age group . and so you do have a longitudinal view over time of what 's happening to children . i think that would be helpful to us in wales , and it 's one of the questions in the consultation about whether we should expand that . obviously , that would have significant resource implications , not just for the funding , but also for schools and for the system to deliver it . but it 's something that maybe would help us in terms of better understanding and better evaluation—the point that was made earlier . nathan cook: and the other data we do have is the millennium cohort study , which has been released , for 14 and 15-year-olds . that 's going to be— . we 're starting to think about how we can utilise some of that data , looking at that longitudinal picture around children as well , which will be really helpful . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . you 've answered my next question . thank you . lynne neagle am: can i just ask about the child measurement programme ? the strategy commits to looking at whether we can have a second measurement taking place in wales . can you just tell us a bit more about your thinking on that and when you would see a second measurement taking place and how you would use that data ? dr frank atherton: i touched on that just now , but personally i do think it would be helpful to have more information . it 's always the case , there 's always a trade-off between the cost of getting that information and the value of the information . so , the question of how it would be used would be really important . there is still a lot that we do n't know . we know an awful lot about obesity and being overweight and the causes of it , but we do n't really have a very clear understanding , in wales at least , of the point at which children start to become overweight . although we know that overweight children tend to go on to become overweight adults , we do n't know what proportion of them between school entry and later teenage years—what those changes are . so , it would help us to have some better understanding , which would help to direct some of our initiatives . i 'd be generally supportive of the principle . we 'll wait and see what comes out in the consultation , and it 's something that we need to give thought to , but we do have to trade off the additionality of what the information would give us with the cost of doing that , of course . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on healthy environments from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . in the draft plan , some of the measures in there suggest legislating for restricting price promotions and banning energy drinks , and that sort of thing . do you think that , if we go down that road , there 's going to be time within this assembly to introduce such legislation ? and , if not , what do you think might be the timescale for such legislation ? dr frank atherton: it may well be that there are things in wales that we might wish to legislate on , and you 've mentioned two of them , and they 're good examples . we would , obviously , need to undertake quite detailed consultation on those and , in a way , we need to mirror what 's happening in england and in scotland to some degree around the consultations they 're having on energy drinks . we also need to influence the issues that are not devolved to us and we seek to do that . as to your question of legislative time , i 'm not really in a position to answer that . what i could say is that legislation may well be one of the outcomes of the consultation . there may well be things that we wish to choose to legislate on . the timing of that will have to be subject to other pressures , and i come back to the point that legislation , of course , is one of the tools that we 've got—we need to deploy them all . dawn bowden am: sure , i understand that , that you could do other things . i know— . we 've heard from the government , on other calls for legislation , that the programme 's very tight , certainly for this term , so i was just wondering whether we might get that in , but okay . if i turn now to the planning system—and this might not be something that you have great deal of knowledge of ; i 'd just welcome your view on this , because , when we discussed with stakeholders , we talked about whether the planning system , for instance , could be used to , as an example , restrict hot food takeaways around schools and so on . would that be a measure that you would support , something like that ? dr frank atherton: i think it 's definitely something we want to look at and , of course , that question is asked in the consultation , so we would like to know people 's views on that . it 's an interesting one . i think there is a question—a really important question—about how we can use the planning system more effectively . i 've discussed with nathan on a number of occasions , with planning colleagues in welsh government and in local authorities , about the art of the possible , let 's say . there may be things that we could think about and we want to get those ideas through the consultation . the specific question around takeaways , particularly takeaways near schools , is often asked . i was very interested to see , up in the north-east , some time ago , that one of the local authorities up there did put a moratorium on the opening of new fast-food venues near to schools , or indeed in areas where levels of obesity and overweight were particularly high . i understand london is now—some london boroughs are now—experimenting with that as well . so , that gave me comfort , because maybe there are powers within local authorities that can be used more effectively . i think my view at the moment is that the jury 's kind of out on whether those are effective and how effective they 're going to be . but the fact that we have some initiatives around the uk does give us an opportunity to study that and to learn from experience perhaps and then , if it is shown to be beneficial , to think about that here in wales , yes . dawn bowden am: sure , because it will only be one of a suite of measures anyway . of itself , it would n't address the problem , but , added to other initiatives , i guess it would . can i just ask you briefly , then , about community sport infrastructure and , in particular , of new schools ? so , welsh government , as you know , has ploughed a huge amount of money into the twenty-first century schools programme . what we heard when we spoke to stakeholders recently , particularly headteachers , was that , in some of the new schools that have been built , we have n't had changing rooms and toilet facilities , for instance , built into the new buildings . so , if we 're going to try and utilise these buildings for general community activity to get kids and the wider public , actually , more active , do you think that 's something that we ought to be building in ? again , not your particular direct area of responsibility , but something that you might have an input into , is that , when we 're developing schools , we should be making sure that they have those kinds of facilities so that they become accessible to the wider public . is that something that you would be prepared to make a recommendation around ? dr frank atherton: well , it 's certainly a fascinating area and one that i think has a lot of potential . it goes— . you 're right to raise it in the context of schools , and i can understand why this committee would , but i think it goes beyond that , actually , into all developments in the public sector and how they 're developed and whether we 're building health into our environment , which perhaps is your starting point . one of the things that i was really pleased to see in terms of the public health ( wales ) act 2017 that was passed a couple of years ago was the use of health impact assessment as a tool , and we 're still working on how that will inform policy and how that will be applied in issues such as policy decisions through government , but also in more downstream issues about how we create the public infrastructure that the public can and should be using . and so i would like to see the use of health impact assessments to a much greater degree to inform those kinds of decisions . if you apply that kind of lens and you take the point , which is inherent in your question , i think , that schools are not just for kids , they 're for communities , then you would—it would lead you to a conclusion that you would perhaps design and build them in a different way . so , on a personal basis , i would certainly support your view that we should be looking to use the sports environment in schools in the same way as we use leisure centres . there are all kinds of barriers in there , and i understand all of that , and it 's not really my field , exactly as you say , but , as a matter of principle , i think it 's a good one to pursue . dawn bowden am: okay . thank you . and widening it out to other public services buildings as well . dr frank atherton: indeed . dawn bowden am: yes . okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 're going to move on now to talk about how we create healthy settings . i 've got some questions from suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you very much . yes , perhaps if we could just stay in this area of education just for a moment , i think we all agree that healthy habits acquired early on probably tend to last quite well , so i wonder if you can tell us a little bit about the healthy and sustainable preschool scheme and whether you think some timescales should be made public about what you expect the achievements from that scheme to be . but , in particular , i was struck with what you said about local leadership , and i just want you to bear that in mind in answering the next question , which is about the foundation phase . you 're probably aware that this committee has heard from various school leaders that they 're struggling in some cases to meet the ratio of staffing for the foundation phase , which potentially compromises the purpose of it in terms of physical activity . i 'm just wondering how the strategy development board is considering that at the moment . is it something that 's come on the radar for the board ? is it something you 're thinking about ? and , if so , who do you think should be responsible for pinning that down a little bit ? because this is education , not health , and— . dr frank atherton: well , look , i 've got to confess to you , i 'm not an educationist , and so the question on staffing numbers in schools is not one that i have been asked to give a deal of consideration to , and it has n't really been discussed , i do n't believe , in the context of development of the strategy . if there is a specific point around that that the committee would like to make in terms of a response into the consultation , which i presume you 'll be making , then we 'd be happy to consider that . as to healthy preschools , i do n't know , nathan may have some view on that . i 've not been closely involved with the work . we have standards and we perhaps need to think about how we tighten those standards and how we—enforce is n't the right word , but how we implement and make sure that those standards are properly implemented , because you 're absolutely right to say that habits are developed early in life . that 's in the preschool ; it 's also in the home of course , and then later in the school . so , we do need to look at all of those as settings and are there more things we can do within those settings to drive healthier behaviours—that 's exactly why we need the consultation . nathan cook: but i would say , through that scheme as well , we 've really got a really good bank of preschools that are actually doing some really great work in this area as well . so , i think the more we can understand the successes that some of those environments are having—you know , how we can roll those out and work across other settings to create that wider impact as well is going to be really important . suzy davies am: okay . thank you . what i 'm thinking about is expectations at that level will be expectations at a slightly older level , which will be contained within the foundation phase . and while you 're quite right—obviously , parents have a role in this , or families—there will be , particularly with the introduction of the new curriculum , certain expectations on schools to provide not just healthy environments but to actively work towards well-being and healthy weight in children and things . and that 's why i asked you about local leadership , because , if it fails for reasons that have nothing to do with the plan at foundation phase , it 's going to fail further up the school years as well . i think it might be something that the board might want to consider here , because at some point there 'll be an accountability question and we will want to know how 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' fits in with the new plans for the new curriculum , and whether it 's merely persuasive and influential or whether it has the weight to place some obligations on school leaders about what they do in their schools . so , this connection , i think , is quite an important one , and , if the strategy development board could consider that , i think it would be very helpful , because this does n't exist in a vacuum . dr frank atherton: well , i 'd certainly be delighted to take that back and we can look at it in terms of how we move from the consultation into the final strategy . it 's certainly a point we can try and look at . suzy davies am: because we will want to know who to ask : 'you 're the accountable person—why has something worked , or not worked ? ' we will need to know that at some point . dr frank atherton: just building on nathan 's point , some of the schools—i know it 's schools rather than the preschools , and i take your point , but some of the schools we 've been working with have absolutely brilliant models of good practice and good local leadership . i remember the minister actually at the launch , and one of the schools was represented there , and they presented—the school came and some of the children came and presented—to the whole audience about the activities that they were undertaking in their school around physical activity and on healthy eating , and it was such a model of good behaviour the question was , 'well , why not everywhere ? ' , so that probably speaks to your question . suzy davies am: okay , well , thank you for that commitment anyway . lynne neagle am: and have you had any discussions , then , with education officials around things like teacher training and cpd , because you 'll be aware the health and social care committee has made a number of recommendations in this area ? it 's crucial that we skill up the staff to develop these things in an appropriate way , is n't it ? dr frank atherton: well , we certainly discuss with education colleagues in welsh government . there 's more we need to do in terms of that , because you 're absolutely right : there 's something about building the whole of the workforce—education is really important , but elsewhere as well ; it 's about how do we really make every contact count , you know , that construct . so , everybody who 's working in the health and social care system should have a role in this ; everybody who works in education , whether it 's the old— . do we still have dinner ladies ? or teachers , you know , they have a role to play in supporting children to be as healthy as they possibly can . and , actually , i see them , chair , as a really essential part of the public health workforce . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . suzy , are you going to do your curriculum one ? suzy davies am: well , i 've bound it in together , but that final point you make about teachers being part of the answer to this , they 're already under a range of pressures : is it fair to make them accountable for whether this works or not ? or should that local leadership lie somewhere else ? i do n't expect you to pin down a person today . dr frank atherton: i would n't like to blame a teacher or performance manage them on the proportion of their children in their class who are overweight . that would clearly be nonsense , would n't it ? but they are part of the solution , and so the accountability lies further up the chain , does n't it ? the question i think we would have , and public services boards might well ask , and the local education authorities may well ask , is : how effective is any particular school at driving forwards these healthy behaviours ? suzy davies am: okay , thank you . i 'll leave some questions for hefin . lynne neagle am: hefin . hefin david am: is that all right , chair ? lynne neagle am: you 've got the floor , hefin . hefin david am: thank you , chair . you make a commitment to embedding physical activity at an early stage in primary school education . what would that look like ? dr frank atherton: just in terms of the physical activity , i have to say it 's a really important dimension and we need to move further on . we know not enough of our children are physically active and they 're not meeting the various guidelines , so it 's really important . it does n't actually have as much of an impact on weight as the dietary issue . i 'd just say that . it 's really important for all sorts of reasons . it does have an impact on healthy weight , but it has a huge impact in terms of socialisation , in terms of mental health issues , et cetera , you know . so—i 'm sorry , i 've lost track of your question . nathan cook: i 'd just say that one thing we have got in train is , obviously , sport wales , public health wales and natural resources wales—we have them working together as a collaborative at the moment to look at how their joint delivery on physical activity can be taken forward more efficiently . so , one of the things they are looking at is obviously the schools programmes they do through eco-schools , the welsh network of healthy schools and the sports programme to really think about that physical activity and how we can have better join up in terms of the programmes that we 're already delivering as well . hefin david am: with that in mind , i 'm going to confess to you , chief medical officer , i did anything in school i could to avoid physical education lessons . i hated it . i did n't feel engaged with it . yet , two weeks ago , i played for the assembly rugby team—i wanted to get that in . the school sports survey , that would suggest that we 're still not hitting those targets with children . how can we get children more engaged with physical education in ways that— ? i felt completely alienated in school . dr frank atherton: well , you 're right , and many people go through that same journey and come to physical activity later in life , and that 's great if they do that . the sad reality is that many people do n't , and we also know that there are issues around the dropping off , particularly for girls , of physical activity towards the teenage years . so , there are specific moments that we need to understand . we do have a lot of information about these kinds of things . public health wales is very good at collating the information . we do need to turn that into programmes . i mean , at the heart of it , it 's about making sports and physical activity enjoyable and attractive to people . sometimes that 's easier , i sense , for boys than for girls , but we need to tailor things to different audiences . hefin david am: yes , that 's the trick , is n't it ? it 's about finding out what children enjoy doing . that could be quite a wide and varied range of things . is that the key ? dawn bowden am: it 's not all about organised team sports . hefin david am: yes . as dawn said , it 's not just about organised team sports . there are some very individual activities you could do . dr frank atherton: absolutely , yes . and that 's where i think— . i 'm delighted that sport wales has moved beyond . it 's not just about elite sports ; it 's about getting everybody engaged and active in sports , and that partnership with public health wales that nathan talked about is really important , because we need a population approach to driving physical activity . hefin david am: so , do you think , with that in mind , we need statutory guidance for schools on physical education ? dr frank atherton: again , i 'd look to the consultation as to whether there was an appetite for any kind of guidance . it may well be that that is something that could be considered . hefin david am: okay . and finally , with regard to free school meals to all pupils in primary and secondary schools , do you think that extending that to all pupils would be beneficial in providing a more varied diet for pupils ? dr frank atherton: i do n't have a personal view on that . i think it 's the quality of the food that kids are getting , whether that comes from home or through school , and whether it 's free or whether it 's paid for . i think it 's the quality of the food that we need to focus on . the question of children being hungry at school is a really important one and needs to be addressed at a national level . i think that 's a— hefin david am: so , you think that 's more about the provision of food for those who might not have access to it than providing a varied diet . dr frank atherton: i think it 's important that children have access to food , absolutely , if that 's your question , but we also need to look at the quality of the food and what 's in that food offer . hefin david am: but you do n't necessarily think universal provision would— . dr frank atherton: i do n't have a clear view on that . i know there 's a larger debate about that . hefin david am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: i 've got some supplementaries from janet and then suzy . janet finch-saunders am: yes . i 've been around some amazing schools in my own constituency , where they 've got proper canteen facilities for pupils and really , really good produce in the meals . however , there 's probably only a third having school meals ; the rest are packed lunches . and , to be honest , i 've been very surprised and shocked at what i 've seen of the quality of the food in the packed lunches . nobody can really police , and i would n't want to see parents being policed over what goes in a packed lunch , so if there is data out there to suggest that there 's a larger percentage of parents providing packed lunched that are really not good at all , then there is some merit to be said for what hefin is— . me , personally , i 'd love to see the introduction of universal school meals . i think it 's been a very retrograde step , going backwards . would you be willing to carry out any research ? dr frank atherton: so , i mean , your point about food that 's brought in in the packed lunches is a really important one , and i 've talked to some headteachers as well about this . we could go down a route of guidance and prohibition , but that gets you into the role of nanny in chief and i do n't really see that as my role or government 's role , and i do n't think it 's effective either . do you remember— ? you must have seen on tv—i think it was in scotland ; i do n't know if it 's happened in wales—parents pushing the fish and chip packets through the school railings . we do n't need to get into that . what i have seen , though , is some really good innovative practice in schools where , for example , they reward children for bringing the healthy options . schools can give guidance to parents about what would be a healthy lunch and what sort of things might be expected to be seen in the lunch box . and you can reward children , and children do respond to rewards . so , i 've seen some of those approaches that have transformed , actually , the offer of what comes in school boxes . but i think just banning chocolate bars and crisps in the packed lunch is unlikely to be successful . janet finch-saunders am: we ca n't do that . so , my point to the question was : is n't there some merit , perhaps , about all children being equal and eating similar good-quality food in schools ? dr frank atherton: yes . that gets you back to the question about universal school meals . janet finch-saunders am: perhaps some of that £56 million sugar tax , even . who knows ? lynne neagle am: suzy . suzy davies am: yes . mine is just a short question . the draft plan commits , does n't it , to updating the healthy eating in schools regulations—the 2013 regulations ? i appreciate this is a consultation , but what is it that needs changing in those regulations at the moment , just to give us a bit of steer ? nathan cook: it 's mainly on sugar content , so , obviously , they do n't adhere to current scientific advisory committee on nutrition guidelines around sugar levels . so , what we 'd want to consider is , you know , what we need to be careful of is unintended consequences of changing that , as well , if you see a shift to more kids bringing in school packed lunches as well . so , i think we want to consider the best way of doing that and consider through the consultation how we can go about it . suzy davies am: all right . so , it 's very pertinent to janet 's question , in that way . okay , so it 's mainly about sugar , but it could be about other things as well . okay . thanks . lynne neagle am: okay . the next questions are from janet anyway ; firstly , on the clinical obesity pathway . janet finch-saunders am: the 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' plan commits to a review of the clinical obesity pathway . what are the time frames for this review , and what do you think are the basic essentials of a clinical obesity pathway for children and young people ? dr frank atherton: we do have a pathway for managing overweight , and that 's been in place since about 2010 , i believe , and we do need to bring that up to date in terms of current knowledge and experiences . we 've challenged public health wales ; we 've asked public health wales to undertake a review of that pathway , and they are going through that process now . i 'm not sure of exactly the time frame that we have given them for that . nathan cook: we were asking them to review the pathway before we launch the final strategy in october because , obviously , what we want is for that to inform what that final strategy looks like . so , we 'll be looking probably early autumn for them to report back on that . dr frank atherton: the second point of your question about what are the essential elements , i mean , they are already there ; we need to tweak them and we need to make sure that they 're properly delivered . but it 's a tiered approach , so , having access to information through schools and through communities and into families is part of the first step of that . and then , if children are overweight , it 's a question about how they 're identified . there are questions about the ability of the public to recognise large children , so there may be an issue there . but when children are running into issues around weight , what kind of interventions can be put in , either through primary care or through communities through health visitors , et cetera ? and then of course we do have—and we 've started to shine a light on this , have n't we—the very overweight children . i do n't think we have enough in the way of targeted support to be able to support those . there are programmes available , but they 're perhaps not universally provided . so , i think there 's something about looking at our whole pathway , mapping out what the current evidence now shows us is needed , and then thinking about what is our provision in wales and what do we need to do to bring that up to the level of the places that are the best . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . the draft plan recognises the importance of the first 1,000 days , but it does n't appear to include any new proposals to help parents to enable lifestyle changes . it lists existing initiatives , such as the healthy child wales programme and breastfeeding action plan . are you satisfied that the draft plan does enough to address the influence that family and parents have on children 's healthy weight behaviours , particularly in the first 1,000 days ? dr frank atherton: well , the first 1,000 days are really critically in shaping lives , as i 'm sure you 'd agree . we are absolutely open to any other suggestions that the public or this committee have as to what more we can and should do . there are a number of things , the sorts of programmes you 've mentioned , that i think could be more effective . we 're currently looking at breastfeeding because it starts before birth , actually . we know that children who are breastfed are less likely to suffer from obesity in childhood and , indeed , to go on to be obese adults . so , we do need to go further on that . we do have some programmes—healthy working wales , et cetera—that need to be improved . if there are other interventions in other areas that we need to take , then we 'd be delighted to hear what they are , but those are the ones that have jumped out so far . nathan cook: can i just say— ? one of the proposals we 're looking for is , obviously , we know that during pregnancy it 's a really critical time when we can actually look to work with mothers . we know from looking at some of the behaviour change that it 's actually a really critical point when new mothers really start thinking about their lives , wanting the best for their child and their families . so , what we are thinking about is how we could develop some kind of approaches to that going forward . but we know our healthy start scheme is also a good lever for us , just in terms of how we can look to improve that kind of dietary offer at the earliest stage as well . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . finally , we know that for some families day-to-day challenges can make it difficult for them to make healthy choices , particularly for those on lower incomes and/or maybe using food banks . could the welsh government take bolder action to better support low-income families to eat healthily ? dr frank atherton: well , you 've touched on a really important point about inequalities because overweight and obesity is not evenly distributed across our population . it absolutely is more prevalent in more socioeconomically deprived communities , and that 's something that should really concern us all . so , it gets you to questions of availability of fresh food and produce ; it gets you to questions of formulation of products and whether value brands are less healthy than more premium brands . so , it cuts across all of those issues that we talked about in terms of settings and in terms of environment earlier . there is something about the affordability of good-quality healthy food that we need to think about . we do need to think in broad terms—broader terms than just obesity , but we do need to think in broad terms—about how we create a society where families have the wherewithal to lead healthy lives , and that gets you to really important questions about the minimum wage and income poverty . there 's no doubt in my mind—i 'm a public health professional—and there 's no doubt in my mind that economic success and health success go hand in hand . so , you speak to a very deep question there . in terms of what we can do through this particular consultation , there are some things in there about providing better access , but without tackling some of those deeper determinants of health , their impact will necessarily be limited . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: just finally from me , then , you referred earlier to the importance of making every contact count , but some stakeholders have told the committee that they struggle to do that because of difficulties in availability of people to refer to . is that a situation that you recognise and what , really , can we do to improve that situation ? dr frank atherton: well , it depends what you mean as to where to refer to . so , the health system obviously needs to respond to this issue . what we 're seeing across the nhs is a gradual transformation in primary care so that primary care is no longer about going to see your gp , it 's about going to see a practice where you have a range of health professionals . would i like to see more dietetic support , for example , in that setting ? absolutely i would . i think we need to think in terms of that pathway that we were talking about earlier , about access to that kind of advice and support , which can head off people getting into problems and kids getting into problems with weight issues . so , that question of redesign of the pathway really speaks to , i think , your point about , 'well , where do people go when they have problems with their weight ? ' that 's true for adults and it 's true for children as well . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . are there any other questions from members ? no . okay . well , can i thank you both very much for your attendance ? it 's been a really productive session . we appreciate your time . you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy in due course , but thank you again . dr frank atherton: we 'll do that . thank you , chair , and thank you to the committee , because getting some input into the consultation from children 's perspectives , this would be one of the routes we would absolutely welcome . thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much . item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the welsh health specialised services committee on camhs tier 4 provision . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for health and social services also on camhs in-patient provision . paper to note 3 is a letter from the children commissioner for wales on tier 4 camhs provision . paper to note 4 is a letter from qualifications wales to the minister for education on qualifications for the new curriculum . paper to note 5 is a letter from me to the minister for education on the development of the new curriculum . paper to note 6 is a letter from me to the minister for education seeking clarification on the draft additional learning needs code . paper to note 7 is a letter from me to the minister for education seeking clarification on the response to our brexit report . paper to note 8 is a letter from the equality and human rights commission on a cumulative impact assessment briefing for committee , which has been offered . paper to note 9 is a letter from the chair of the petitions committee on a national taskforce for children ’ s mental health . paper to note 10 is a letter to the secretary of state for exiting the european union from the children ’ s commissioners for england , scotland , wales and northern ireland on the implications of brexit for children . there are a few that i 'd like to return to in private , but are members happy to note those ? thank you . okay . item 4 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? suzy davies am: yes . there 's somebody up there . lynne neagle am: thank you .

dr frank atherton put out one “ often asked ” question and attached some importance to having a longitudinal view over time of what 's happening to children , which meant children were measured at school entry and then again at age 11 or 12. that would have significant resource implications , not just for the funding , but also for schools and for the system to deliver it . and also , according to dr frank atherton , the longitudinal data would be helpful in strategy evaluation .

summarize the discussion about legislation and sports infrastructural construction to make a healthy environment . </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from michelle brown and jack sargeant ; there are no substitutions . can i ask if members have any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . we 'll move on , then , to item 2 , which is our scrutiny of the 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' draft strategy , and i 'm very pleased to welcome dr frank atherton , the chief medical officer for wales , and nathan cook , who is the head of the healthy and active branch at welsh government . thank you , both , for attending this morning . we 're very much looking forward to hearing what you 've got to say . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions . if i can just start by asking about the fact that 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' is an all-age strategy , really , and how confident you are that it will deliver for children and young people . dr frank atherton: well , we 're very confident . i mean , it has to , quite clearly . we do need to think about the present generation , the problems faced by the current generation . we have high prevalence of overweight and obesity among adults—we know that , and we ca n't walk away from that because that 's translating into demand on health services . but we have to take a focus , a future generation 's focus , almost , on the next generation . i do n't write off the current generation , we ca n't afford to do that , but we do need to think about what can we do that would be different for the next generation so that they do n't get into the sorts of problems that we 're currently seeing with overweight and obesity . we know that the consequences of that for our young people are going to be enormous if we do n't do something and something quite soon . we know that overweight children go on to become overweight adults , unfortunately , and that brings all the consequences of multiple disease issues—diabetes is often cited—cancer risk et cetera . so , we have to focus on children , and , in fact , during the consultation , we 've been very clear that we need to engage with children and young people as well . perhaps we 'll get into that at some point , chair , but , yes , i can give you that assurance . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . what my follow-up question , really , is : can you just tell us what kind of engagement you 've had with children and young people to inform the draft strategy ? dr frank atherton: well , nathan may be able to influence some of the detail , but in broad terms , we have discussed with young people in a number of fora . in fact , i was delighted that we had a young person , evie morgan , a schoolgirl from mid wales , who came to the joint launch on the consultation . she met the minister there and gave a very good personal account of her views on obesity and overweight . we 've been visiting a number of schools during the consultation process . i 'm visiting a school , either this week or next week , at treorchy , to talk with teachers and young people there . obviously , we 're hopeful that schools and young people will contribute to the consultation as well . so , we 've had quite good input , i would say , from children and young people . there is always more we can do we and we want to hear those voices . nathan cook: i was going to say , we 've also had a session with youth ambassadors as well , and what we 've actually produced for the consultation is not just the children and young people 's version , but also a toolkit in terms of getting schools really engaged and involved in terms of the work that we want them to do to feed into this as well . so , we 've already had some really good responses from a lot of youth group and schools already . lynne neagle am: and you 've got a structured programme , have you , to roll that out ? okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on leadership , and the first questions are from siân gwenllian . sian gwenllian am: good morning . i 'll be speaking in welsh . the minister for health said yesterday , in answering a question from me on the chamber floor , that you gave him advice not to have a target in terms of reducing obesity among children . could you confirm that that 's what your advice was and tell us why you do n't think that a target is needed ? dr frank atherton: my advice was not that we do n't need a target—we may well need a target , and that 's one of the issues we need to consult on—but that the target that had been adopted in england and in scotland to halve the prevalence of obesity in children was more aspirational than deliverable , and that if we are to choose a target in wales , then we need to balance deliverability with challenge . we need a challenging environment . so , there is something about performance management , because i would be looking to not just the health system but the health and care system and to public services boards to think about how they 're delivering on this , and i think we can use targets to that . but they are one tool in the box that i would think we could use , and part of the consultation is to ask that question—'if we are to go down a route in wales of choosing a target , what might that look like ? ' sian gwenllian am: okay . so , to be clear , you 're not ruling out that maybe we would need a target . dr frank atherton: it 's certainly something that we could consider in terms of the final strategy . sian gwenllian am: and is that your opinion too ? nathan cook: yes . sian gwenllian am: okay . well , that is contrary to what i was told yesterday on the floor of the chamber by the minister , but there we go . i 'm glad to hear that you 're not ruling out having a target , because without a target , without something to aim for , how do we know that we 're getting there ? dr frank atherton: i think your point about evaluation is really important . whatever we produce at the end of this process—and we 're looking to produce a final strategy towards the autumn—we do need to have a strong evaluation . so , some metrics in there , it would seem , would be appropriate , but what those are , what the nature of those are , do we frame them as targets or ambitions—that 's the point we need to consult on . sian gwenllian am: okay . and the other point , of course , is the investment . if the government is going to be successful in terms of the aim of reducing childhood obesity , then it needs to fund and support the actions . have you made an assessment of the level of investment needed to implement this plan ? dr frank atherton: resourcing will be important . we currently do make investments in a number of areas that relate to child health generally , and , of course , obesity and overweight in particular . so , the question of resourcing is important . now , we ca n't quantify an absolute amount of resource that will be needed to deliver until we know exactly what 's going to come out of the consultation and what actions we might want to deliver to a greater degree in wales . a figure of £8 million to £10 million a year has been banded around as a broad kind of area of what we might need to invest , but that would need to be drawn from existing programmes . we need to look at existing programmes , how effective they are . can we make them more effective ? can we get better value from them ? and there may well be a case for new investment , and that 's a question , of course , that would need to be discussed with ministers when we 're producing the final strategy . nathan cook: but i think a key consideration as well is we already know there is investment across health boards in some kind of obesity-related services . so , i think what we really need to think about across wales is how we can drive greater scale , how we can look at current programmes in terms of making sure that they 're better evaluated , and how we can make sure that we 're also drawing up on the existing resources and capacity out there as well . sian gwenllian am: and does the level of investment depend on what the target is—what the goal is ? dr frank atherton: i do n't think you can necessarily just link the two . the issue of resourcing is one that 's there irrespective of whether we choose to put a target in place . sian gwenllian am: but how would we know that it 's being used effectively if there is n't something to aim for ? dr frank atherton: which brings you back to the question about evaluation . we need proper evaluation of the various programmes that we have . sian gwenllian am: yes , but without a target , how can you properly evaluate ? if you do n't know what you 're trying to do , how can you properly evaluate ? anyway , you 're open to suggestions about having a target , which is great . would you agree that government could use the revenue that 's being produced through the levy on soft drinks towards some of these efforts to— ? dr frank atherton: well , of course , there are some consequentials that are coming to the welsh government as part of the levy on sugary soft drinks . that funding , of course , is less than we had anticipated , and that reflects , actually , a success story because industry is reformulating , and so the amount of sugar in soft drinks is already starting to decrease , which is a good thing . but to your question : should we use the funding ? well , of course we should use funding . i 'm not personally in favour of hypothecation , i think i 'm more interested in the totality of resource that goes into public health programmes than into marginal resource . there are , of course , a number of initiatives that we currently fund through the general revenue . and when i think about obesity , i do n't just think about the relatively small marginal amounts of money that come in through whatever source , but i think about the totality of the £7 billion we spend in health and social care and how we can divert and channel some of that towards broad prevention initiatives in general , and towards tackling being overweight and obesity in particular . sian gwenllian am: you 're saying that it 's less than expected . could you give us any kind of figure ? dr frank atherton: i 'm sorry , could you repeat the question ? sian gwenllian am: you say that there is less money that 's come in through these consequentials from the levy , can you mention some sort of figure ? dr frank atherton: the figure that i have in mind is about £56 million that 's coming in in terms of revenue over a two-year period . but i 'd have to confirm that with the committee . what the anticipated— . when the sugar levy was first brought in , there was some modelling at uk level about what level of revenue that would bring , but it was based on the amount of sugar that was currently then in drinks and the fact that the sugar has reduced in drinks , i mean , the total amount available to the uk is less and hence our consequentials are less . nathan may have some precise figures . nathan cook: yes , i was going to say , there was a mid-year report done where the levy has raised £150 million to date since coming into force in april , and the original forecast was £520 million a year . so , i think that shows the amount of work that 's been done by industry around reformulation . sian gwenllian am: and the consequentials of that ? that is the consequential—£150 million . nathan cook: on a uk level . sian gwenllian am: yes , so what 's the welsh consequential ? lynne neagle am: fifty-six . sian gwenllian am: fifty-six ? gosh , that sounds a lot . anyway , it 's a good sum of money and you 're talking about investing £8 million to £10 million . so , obviously , you know , we can be more ambitious because there is money in that pot if that money was ring-fenced for this particular scheme . dr frank atherton: well , the resource is going to be a real issue that we need to address , and i think as nathan has said , there is funding of various initiatives currently in the system , and we need to look at that and make that as effective as possible . will there be a need for some additional resource ? there may well be , and that 's a question that we 'll have to look at in terms of the strategy when we develop it and have a discussion with ministers about the level of resourcing . lynne neagle am: can i just ask on that before siân moves on ? what assessment have you made of how that money is being spent in other uk nations ? because my understanding is that the money is being used in other uk nations to directly impact on obesity . have you given any consideration to— ? as i understand it , that money now is being dispersed around a plethora of programmes , including the transformation programme , and what i found very odd , really , was vaccination , which is surely the core business of the nhs . have you got any view on that ? dr frank atherton: i 'm not sure i understand your point , chair , in terms of the link between the consequentials from— . are you talking about the consequentials from the sugar levy or are you talking about— ? lynne neagle am: yes , because in other nations , it is being used to directly impact on initiatives to tackle obesity , whereas , we 've kind of put it here in wales into the general pot and it 's being used to fund a plethora of different things . dr frank atherton: well , that cuts to what i was talking about . my preference—it 's a personal view—is that hypothecation does n't really help us too much . i mean , what we need to look at is whether the programmes , the sorts of programmes that are being funded in england , or indeed in scotland , are working effectively , and if they are , are they being delivered here in wales ? we have looked very carefully at the plans that england and scotland have for tackling obesity and overweight , and we 've made a comparison with what we 're doing in wales , and our ambition in wales is to go further than those nations , in many ways . but i come back to the point that just linking the hypothecation of a relatively small amount of resource is likely to be less impactful than asking a question of public services boards and of the health system , indeed , about how much money , overall , are we putting into prevention . lynne neagle am: no , i recognise that , and i think we 're talking about additional resource . suzy . suzy davies am: i was just wondering whether you thought that there was a useful psychological link on the part of the public between saying , 'here 's a sugar levy ' , and 'it 's going to be used to help children and adults stay healthier . ' going into a pot , it actually makes it quite difficult to explain the purpose of the tax in the first place . so , i take your overall point , but in terms of the people who we 're trying to help in all this , actually creating a direct link might be quite helpful . dr frank atherton: you may be right . i 'm not a behavioural psychologist . we 'd have to ask— suzy davies am: neither am i. i 'm a person who eats a lot of sugar . [ laughter . ] dr frank atherton: your point 's taken . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: thanks . siân . sian gwenllian am: the last question from me , about partnership working . you 're putting an emphasis on the whole-system approach in implementing the plan , how are you going to create a system that co-ordinates action and drives change across relevant partners , avoiding a situation where it 's everyone 's role , but nobody 's responsibility ? how are you going to avoid that ? dr frank atherton: it 's a very important question , and one of the four strands in the consultation is exactly related to that , around leadership and drive nationally . i 'm not interested in producing a strategy that sits on a shelf . if you look around the world , there are plenty of obesity strategies . you may notice , by the way , that we 've chosen not to talk about an obesity strategy but a healthy weight strategy , because i think having a positive construct is really quite important to us here in wales . but leadership will be really important , and we will need some sort of structure to lead this , to provide oversight . i 'm not a great believer in creating new structures , so we do need something that will give that drive , but the leadership comes from the top down . we need political commitment to this , and that 's why i welcome the input from this committee . so , that needs to be assured . and then we need to make sure that the public sector generally is engaged in this , but it goes way beyond the public sector , of course , because we have to work with industry , and we have to work with communities , and we have to work with the public on this . so we need to think about our governance system for this and how we drive it forward . interestingly , we had quite a large discussion two days ago between health and social care , but also involving the third sector and some members of the public , around how can we drive prevention more generally . it was n't specifically on obesity , but of course obesity came up because it 's such a pressing issue . this question of governance was discussed quite extensively , and we do have governance systems , of course , in wales . we have public services boards , we have regional partnership boards , and how we can get those aligned behind this common agenda is really important . but i 'd like to see—and i know i 'm a public health professional , so i know that only maybe 10 per cent , 15 per cent , possibly 20 per cent of what makes and keeps us healthy as individuals and as communities can be driven through the health system ; but i would like the system to step up and take these kinds of issues more seriously as well . so i 'd be looking for local leadership through directors of public health and indeed through chief executives to work with their public services boards on this . so , we 'll need some sort of national oversight , absolutely , but we need local ownership and local leadership , too . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 've got some questions now from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . delivery of the plan will be led by a national implementation board that will be accountable to ministers . which minister do you believe it should be accountable to , or , given the complexity of obesity , should the board be directly accountable to the first minister ? dr frank atherton: ultimately , the first minister will be responsible for this and will want to have a strong oversight of this . it is often framed as a health issue , and the minister , vaughan gething , has a strong personal commitment to this , i know . we 've talked extensively with him and with sports and recreation colleagues about that , so there 's a link there . it does cut across all portfolios , and so this is an issue that i have discussed with cabinet , and that collective ownership is really important , and will be , because it ca n't just sit in one domain . i think what you do need to have is you do need to have a lead organisation or a lead ministry , and i would see health as—i work within health , so i 'm perhaps biased , but i would see health as leading this , but it needs broad ownership across government . janet finch-saunders am: i know my colleague siân gwenllian mentioned earlier targets and things , but i know in wales we 're not too good at collecting data . what data is currently available on childhood obesity and what metrics will be used to measure progress against the plan 's objectives ? dr frank atherton: well , of course , our main data source is the child measurement programme , which collects information on children entering school aged four or five . that 's our main source of information . if we look at that data , it shows us— . well , i 'm sure you 're familiar with the statistics , but it 'll be just under a third of children at that age who are overweight or obese— janet finch-saunders am: could i just ask—sorry to interrupt—how up to date is that ? dr frank atherton: the last survey was just last year . nathan cook: the data was published last week . dr frank atherton: yes , the lastest data was out last week . janet finch-saunders am: it is pretty up to date . dr frank atherton: so , it 's pretty up to date , and what it shows— . it 's not getting radically worse—there 's always statistical variation in these things—but it 's not getting any better . and , for the first time last year , we did look at the question not just of children who were overweight or obese , but we actually singled out the proportion who are obese , severely obese . so we have a figure for that for the first time , which is about 12 per cent , which is quite shocking , in a way . janet finch-saunders am: it is shocking . dr frank atherton: so , that 's our main source of information . does that answer your question ? janet finch-saunders am: yes , but how will any gaps in your data be addressed ? dr frank atherton: well , one of the questions that are often asked is : could we measure more on a longitudinal basis ? by that i mean in england , for example , children are measured at school entry and then again at year 11—at age 11 or 12. , that kind of age group . and so you do have a longitudinal view over time of what 's happening to children . i think that would be helpful to us in wales , and it 's one of the questions in the consultation about whether we should expand that . obviously , that would have significant resource implications , not just for the funding , but also for schools and for the system to deliver it . but it 's something that maybe would help us in terms of better understanding and better evaluation—the point that was made earlier . nathan cook: and the other data we do have is the millennium cohort study , which has been released , for 14 and 15-year-olds . that 's going to be— . we 're starting to think about how we can utilise some of that data , looking at that longitudinal picture around children as well , which will be really helpful . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . you 've answered my next question . thank you . lynne neagle am: can i just ask about the child measurement programme ? the strategy commits to looking at whether we can have a second measurement taking place in wales . can you just tell us a bit more about your thinking on that and when you would see a second measurement taking place and how you would use that data ? dr frank atherton: i touched on that just now , but personally i do think it would be helpful to have more information . it 's always the case , there 's always a trade-off between the cost of getting that information and the value of the information . so , the question of how it would be used would be really important . there is still a lot that we do n't know . we know an awful lot about obesity and being overweight and the causes of it , but we do n't really have a very clear understanding , in wales at least , of the point at which children start to become overweight . although we know that overweight children tend to go on to become overweight adults , we do n't know what proportion of them between school entry and later teenage years—what those changes are . so , it would help us to have some better understanding , which would help to direct some of our initiatives . i 'd be generally supportive of the principle . we 'll wait and see what comes out in the consultation , and it 's something that we need to give thought to , but we do have to trade off the additionality of what the information would give us with the cost of doing that , of course . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on healthy environments from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . in the draft plan , some of the measures in there suggest legislating for restricting price promotions and banning energy drinks , and that sort of thing . do you think that , if we go down that road , there 's going to be time within this assembly to introduce such legislation ? and , if not , what do you think might be the timescale for such legislation ? dr frank atherton: it may well be that there are things in wales that we might wish to legislate on , and you 've mentioned two of them , and they 're good examples . we would , obviously , need to undertake quite detailed consultation on those and , in a way , we need to mirror what 's happening in england and in scotland to some degree around the consultations they 're having on energy drinks . we also need to influence the issues that are not devolved to us and we seek to do that . as to your question of legislative time , i 'm not really in a position to answer that . what i could say is that legislation may well be one of the outcomes of the consultation . there may well be things that we wish to choose to legislate on . the timing of that will have to be subject to other pressures , and i come back to the point that legislation , of course , is one of the tools that we 've got—we need to deploy them all . dawn bowden am: sure , i understand that , that you could do other things . i know— . we 've heard from the government , on other calls for legislation , that the programme 's very tight , certainly for this term , so i was just wondering whether we might get that in , but okay . if i turn now to the planning system—and this might not be something that you have great deal of knowledge of ; i 'd just welcome your view on this , because , when we discussed with stakeholders , we talked about whether the planning system , for instance , could be used to , as an example , restrict hot food takeaways around schools and so on . would that be a measure that you would support , something like that ? dr frank atherton: i think it 's definitely something we want to look at and , of course , that question is asked in the consultation , so we would like to know people 's views on that . it 's an interesting one . i think there is a question—a really important question—about how we can use the planning system more effectively . i 've discussed with nathan on a number of occasions , with planning colleagues in welsh government and in local authorities , about the art of the possible , let 's say . there may be things that we could think about and we want to get those ideas through the consultation . the specific question around takeaways , particularly takeaways near schools , is often asked . i was very interested to see , up in the north-east , some time ago , that one of the local authorities up there did put a moratorium on the opening of new fast-food venues near to schools , or indeed in areas where levels of obesity and overweight were particularly high . i understand london is now—some london boroughs are now—experimenting with that as well . so , that gave me comfort , because maybe there are powers within local authorities that can be used more effectively . i think my view at the moment is that the jury 's kind of out on whether those are effective and how effective they 're going to be . but the fact that we have some initiatives around the uk does give us an opportunity to study that and to learn from experience perhaps and then , if it is shown to be beneficial , to think about that here in wales , yes . dawn bowden am: sure , because it will only be one of a suite of measures anyway . of itself , it would n't address the problem , but , added to other initiatives , i guess it would . can i just ask you briefly , then , about community sport infrastructure and , in particular , of new schools ? so , welsh government , as you know , has ploughed a huge amount of money into the twenty-first century schools programme . what we heard when we spoke to stakeholders recently , particularly headteachers , was that , in some of the new schools that have been built , we have n't had changing rooms and toilet facilities , for instance , built into the new buildings . so , if we 're going to try and utilise these buildings for general community activity to get kids and the wider public , actually , more active , do you think that 's something that we ought to be building in ? again , not your particular direct area of responsibility , but something that you might have an input into , is that , when we 're developing schools , we should be making sure that they have those kinds of facilities so that they become accessible to the wider public . is that something that you would be prepared to make a recommendation around ? dr frank atherton: well , it 's certainly a fascinating area and one that i think has a lot of potential . it goes— . you 're right to raise it in the context of schools , and i can understand why this committee would , but i think it goes beyond that , actually , into all developments in the public sector and how they 're developed and whether we 're building health into our environment , which perhaps is your starting point . one of the things that i was really pleased to see in terms of the public health ( wales ) act 2017 that was passed a couple of years ago was the use of health impact assessment as a tool , and we 're still working on how that will inform policy and how that will be applied in issues such as policy decisions through government , but also in more downstream issues about how we create the public infrastructure that the public can and should be using . and so i would like to see the use of health impact assessments to a much greater degree to inform those kinds of decisions . if you apply that kind of lens and you take the point , which is inherent in your question , i think , that schools are not just for kids , they 're for communities , then you would—it would lead you to a conclusion that you would perhaps design and build them in a different way . so , on a personal basis , i would certainly support your view that we should be looking to use the sports environment in schools in the same way as we use leisure centres . there are all kinds of barriers in there , and i understand all of that , and it 's not really my field , exactly as you say , but , as a matter of principle , i think it 's a good one to pursue . dawn bowden am: okay . thank you . and widening it out to other public services buildings as well . dr frank atherton: indeed . dawn bowden am: yes . okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 're going to move on now to talk about how we create healthy settings . i 've got some questions from suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you very much . yes , perhaps if we could just stay in this area of education just for a moment , i think we all agree that healthy habits acquired early on probably tend to last quite well , so i wonder if you can tell us a little bit about the healthy and sustainable preschool scheme and whether you think some timescales should be made public about what you expect the achievements from that scheme to be . but , in particular , i was struck with what you said about local leadership , and i just want you to bear that in mind in answering the next question , which is about the foundation phase . you 're probably aware that this committee has heard from various school leaders that they 're struggling in some cases to meet the ratio of staffing for the foundation phase , which potentially compromises the purpose of it in terms of physical activity . i 'm just wondering how the strategy development board is considering that at the moment . is it something that 's come on the radar for the board ? is it something you 're thinking about ? and , if so , who do you think should be responsible for pinning that down a little bit ? because this is education , not health , and— . dr frank atherton: well , look , i 've got to confess to you , i 'm not an educationist , and so the question on staffing numbers in schools is not one that i have been asked to give a deal of consideration to , and it has n't really been discussed , i do n't believe , in the context of development of the strategy . if there is a specific point around that that the committee would like to make in terms of a response into the consultation , which i presume you 'll be making , then we 'd be happy to consider that . as to healthy preschools , i do n't know , nathan may have some view on that . i 've not been closely involved with the work . we have standards and we perhaps need to think about how we tighten those standards and how we—enforce is n't the right word , but how we implement and make sure that those standards are properly implemented , because you 're absolutely right to say that habits are developed early in life . that 's in the preschool ; it 's also in the home of course , and then later in the school . so , we do need to look at all of those as settings and are there more things we can do within those settings to drive healthier behaviours—that 's exactly why we need the consultation . nathan cook: but i would say , through that scheme as well , we 've really got a really good bank of preschools that are actually doing some really great work in this area as well . so , i think the more we can understand the successes that some of those environments are having—you know , how we can roll those out and work across other settings to create that wider impact as well is going to be really important . suzy davies am: okay . thank you . what i 'm thinking about is expectations at that level will be expectations at a slightly older level , which will be contained within the foundation phase . and while you 're quite right—obviously , parents have a role in this , or families—there will be , particularly with the introduction of the new curriculum , certain expectations on schools to provide not just healthy environments but to actively work towards well-being and healthy weight in children and things . and that 's why i asked you about local leadership , because , if it fails for reasons that have nothing to do with the plan at foundation phase , it 's going to fail further up the school years as well . i think it might be something that the board might want to consider here , because at some point there 'll be an accountability question and we will want to know how 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' fits in with the new plans for the new curriculum , and whether it 's merely persuasive and influential or whether it has the weight to place some obligations on school leaders about what they do in their schools . so , this connection , i think , is quite an important one , and , if the strategy development board could consider that , i think it would be very helpful , because this does n't exist in a vacuum . dr frank atherton: well , i 'd certainly be delighted to take that back and we can look at it in terms of how we move from the consultation into the final strategy . it 's certainly a point we can try and look at . suzy davies am: because we will want to know who to ask : 'you 're the accountable person—why has something worked , or not worked ? ' we will need to know that at some point . dr frank atherton: just building on nathan 's point , some of the schools—i know it 's schools rather than the preschools , and i take your point , but some of the schools we 've been working with have absolutely brilliant models of good practice and good local leadership . i remember the minister actually at the launch , and one of the schools was represented there , and they presented—the school came and some of the children came and presented—to the whole audience about the activities that they were undertaking in their school around physical activity and on healthy eating , and it was such a model of good behaviour the question was , 'well , why not everywhere ? ' , so that probably speaks to your question . suzy davies am: okay , well , thank you for that commitment anyway . lynne neagle am: and have you had any discussions , then , with education officials around things like teacher training and cpd , because you 'll be aware the health and social care committee has made a number of recommendations in this area ? it 's crucial that we skill up the staff to develop these things in an appropriate way , is n't it ? dr frank atherton: well , we certainly discuss with education colleagues in welsh government . there 's more we need to do in terms of that , because you 're absolutely right : there 's something about building the whole of the workforce—education is really important , but elsewhere as well ; it 's about how do we really make every contact count , you know , that construct . so , everybody who 's working in the health and social care system should have a role in this ; everybody who works in education , whether it 's the old— . do we still have dinner ladies ? or teachers , you know , they have a role to play in supporting children to be as healthy as they possibly can . and , actually , i see them , chair , as a really essential part of the public health workforce . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . suzy , are you going to do your curriculum one ? suzy davies am: well , i 've bound it in together , but that final point you make about teachers being part of the answer to this , they 're already under a range of pressures : is it fair to make them accountable for whether this works or not ? or should that local leadership lie somewhere else ? i do n't expect you to pin down a person today . dr frank atherton: i would n't like to blame a teacher or performance manage them on the proportion of their children in their class who are overweight . that would clearly be nonsense , would n't it ? but they are part of the solution , and so the accountability lies further up the chain , does n't it ? the question i think we would have , and public services boards might well ask , and the local education authorities may well ask , is : how effective is any particular school at driving forwards these healthy behaviours ? suzy davies am: okay , thank you . i 'll leave some questions for hefin . lynne neagle am: hefin . hefin david am: is that all right , chair ? lynne neagle am: you 've got the floor , hefin . hefin david am: thank you , chair . you make a commitment to embedding physical activity at an early stage in primary school education . what would that look like ? dr frank atherton: just in terms of the physical activity , i have to say it 's a really important dimension and we need to move further on . we know not enough of our children are physically active and they 're not meeting the various guidelines , so it 's really important . it does n't actually have as much of an impact on weight as the dietary issue . i 'd just say that . it 's really important for all sorts of reasons . it does have an impact on healthy weight , but it has a huge impact in terms of socialisation , in terms of mental health issues , et cetera , you know . so—i 'm sorry , i 've lost track of your question . nathan cook: i 'd just say that one thing we have got in train is , obviously , sport wales , public health wales and natural resources wales—we have them working together as a collaborative at the moment to look at how their joint delivery on physical activity can be taken forward more efficiently . so , one of the things they are looking at is obviously the schools programmes they do through eco-schools , the welsh network of healthy schools and the sports programme to really think about that physical activity and how we can have better join up in terms of the programmes that we 're already delivering as well . hefin david am: with that in mind , i 'm going to confess to you , chief medical officer , i did anything in school i could to avoid physical education lessons . i hated it . i did n't feel engaged with it . yet , two weeks ago , i played for the assembly rugby team—i wanted to get that in . the school sports survey , that would suggest that we 're still not hitting those targets with children . how can we get children more engaged with physical education in ways that— ? i felt completely alienated in school . dr frank atherton: well , you 're right , and many people go through that same journey and come to physical activity later in life , and that 's great if they do that . the sad reality is that many people do n't , and we also know that there are issues around the dropping off , particularly for girls , of physical activity towards the teenage years . so , there are specific moments that we need to understand . we do have a lot of information about these kinds of things . public health wales is very good at collating the information . we do need to turn that into programmes . i mean , at the heart of it , it 's about making sports and physical activity enjoyable and attractive to people . sometimes that 's easier , i sense , for boys than for girls , but we need to tailor things to different audiences . hefin david am: yes , that 's the trick , is n't it ? it 's about finding out what children enjoy doing . that could be quite a wide and varied range of things . is that the key ? dawn bowden am: it 's not all about organised team sports . hefin david am: yes . as dawn said , it 's not just about organised team sports . there are some very individual activities you could do . dr frank atherton: absolutely , yes . and that 's where i think— . i 'm delighted that sport wales has moved beyond . it 's not just about elite sports ; it 's about getting everybody engaged and active in sports , and that partnership with public health wales that nathan talked about is really important , because we need a population approach to driving physical activity . hefin david am: so , do you think , with that in mind , we need statutory guidance for schools on physical education ? dr frank atherton: again , i 'd look to the consultation as to whether there was an appetite for any kind of guidance . it may well be that that is something that could be considered . hefin david am: okay . and finally , with regard to free school meals to all pupils in primary and secondary schools , do you think that extending that to all pupils would be beneficial in providing a more varied diet for pupils ? dr frank atherton: i do n't have a personal view on that . i think it 's the quality of the food that kids are getting , whether that comes from home or through school , and whether it 's free or whether it 's paid for . i think it 's the quality of the food that we need to focus on . the question of children being hungry at school is a really important one and needs to be addressed at a national level . i think that 's a— hefin david am: so , you think that 's more about the provision of food for those who might not have access to it than providing a varied diet . dr frank atherton: i think it 's important that children have access to food , absolutely , if that 's your question , but we also need to look at the quality of the food and what 's in that food offer . hefin david am: but you do n't necessarily think universal provision would— . dr frank atherton: i do n't have a clear view on that . i know there 's a larger debate about that . hefin david am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: i 've got some supplementaries from janet and then suzy . janet finch-saunders am: yes . i 've been around some amazing schools in my own constituency , where they 've got proper canteen facilities for pupils and really , really good produce in the meals . however , there 's probably only a third having school meals ; the rest are packed lunches . and , to be honest , i 've been very surprised and shocked at what i 've seen of the quality of the food in the packed lunches . nobody can really police , and i would n't want to see parents being policed over what goes in a packed lunch , so if there is data out there to suggest that there 's a larger percentage of parents providing packed lunched that are really not good at all , then there is some merit to be said for what hefin is— . me , personally , i 'd love to see the introduction of universal school meals . i think it 's been a very retrograde step , going backwards . would you be willing to carry out any research ? dr frank atherton: so , i mean , your point about food that 's brought in in the packed lunches is a really important one , and i 've talked to some headteachers as well about this . we could go down a route of guidance and prohibition , but that gets you into the role of nanny in chief and i do n't really see that as my role or government 's role , and i do n't think it 's effective either . do you remember— ? you must have seen on tv—i think it was in scotland ; i do n't know if it 's happened in wales—parents pushing the fish and chip packets through the school railings . we do n't need to get into that . what i have seen , though , is some really good innovative practice in schools where , for example , they reward children for bringing the healthy options . schools can give guidance to parents about what would be a healthy lunch and what sort of things might be expected to be seen in the lunch box . and you can reward children , and children do respond to rewards . so , i 've seen some of those approaches that have transformed , actually , the offer of what comes in school boxes . but i think just banning chocolate bars and crisps in the packed lunch is unlikely to be successful . janet finch-saunders am: we ca n't do that . so , my point to the question was : is n't there some merit , perhaps , about all children being equal and eating similar good-quality food in schools ? dr frank atherton: yes . that gets you back to the question about universal school meals . janet finch-saunders am: perhaps some of that £56 million sugar tax , even . who knows ? lynne neagle am: suzy . suzy davies am: yes . mine is just a short question . the draft plan commits , does n't it , to updating the healthy eating in schools regulations—the 2013 regulations ? i appreciate this is a consultation , but what is it that needs changing in those regulations at the moment , just to give us a bit of steer ? nathan cook: it 's mainly on sugar content , so , obviously , they do n't adhere to current scientific advisory committee on nutrition guidelines around sugar levels . so , what we 'd want to consider is , you know , what we need to be careful of is unintended consequences of changing that , as well , if you see a shift to more kids bringing in school packed lunches as well . so , i think we want to consider the best way of doing that and consider through the consultation how we can go about it . suzy davies am: all right . so , it 's very pertinent to janet 's question , in that way . okay , so it 's mainly about sugar , but it could be about other things as well . okay . thanks . lynne neagle am: okay . the next questions are from janet anyway ; firstly , on the clinical obesity pathway . janet finch-saunders am: the 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' plan commits to a review of the clinical obesity pathway . what are the time frames for this review , and what do you think are the basic essentials of a clinical obesity pathway for children and young people ? dr frank atherton: we do have a pathway for managing overweight , and that 's been in place since about 2010 , i believe , and we do need to bring that up to date in terms of current knowledge and experiences . we 've challenged public health wales ; we 've asked public health wales to undertake a review of that pathway , and they are going through that process now . i 'm not sure of exactly the time frame that we have given them for that . nathan cook: we were asking them to review the pathway before we launch the final strategy in october because , obviously , what we want is for that to inform what that final strategy looks like . so , we 'll be looking probably early autumn for them to report back on that . dr frank atherton: the second point of your question about what are the essential elements , i mean , they are already there ; we need to tweak them and we need to make sure that they 're properly delivered . but it 's a tiered approach , so , having access to information through schools and through communities and into families is part of the first step of that . and then , if children are overweight , it 's a question about how they 're identified . there are questions about the ability of the public to recognise large children , so there may be an issue there . but when children are running into issues around weight , what kind of interventions can be put in , either through primary care or through communities through health visitors , et cetera ? and then of course we do have—and we 've started to shine a light on this , have n't we—the very overweight children . i do n't think we have enough in the way of targeted support to be able to support those . there are programmes available , but they 're perhaps not universally provided . so , i think there 's something about looking at our whole pathway , mapping out what the current evidence now shows us is needed , and then thinking about what is our provision in wales and what do we need to do to bring that up to the level of the places that are the best . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . the draft plan recognises the importance of the first 1,000 days , but it does n't appear to include any new proposals to help parents to enable lifestyle changes . it lists existing initiatives , such as the healthy child wales programme and breastfeeding action plan . are you satisfied that the draft plan does enough to address the influence that family and parents have on children 's healthy weight behaviours , particularly in the first 1,000 days ? dr frank atherton: well , the first 1,000 days are really critically in shaping lives , as i 'm sure you 'd agree . we are absolutely open to any other suggestions that the public or this committee have as to what more we can and should do . there are a number of things , the sorts of programmes you 've mentioned , that i think could be more effective . we 're currently looking at breastfeeding because it starts before birth , actually . we know that children who are breastfed are less likely to suffer from obesity in childhood and , indeed , to go on to be obese adults . so , we do need to go further on that . we do have some programmes—healthy working wales , et cetera—that need to be improved . if there are other interventions in other areas that we need to take , then we 'd be delighted to hear what they are , but those are the ones that have jumped out so far . nathan cook: can i just say— ? one of the proposals we 're looking for is , obviously , we know that during pregnancy it 's a really critical time when we can actually look to work with mothers . we know from looking at some of the behaviour change that it 's actually a really critical point when new mothers really start thinking about their lives , wanting the best for their child and their families . so , what we are thinking about is how we could develop some kind of approaches to that going forward . but we know our healthy start scheme is also a good lever for us , just in terms of how we can look to improve that kind of dietary offer at the earliest stage as well . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . finally , we know that for some families day-to-day challenges can make it difficult for them to make healthy choices , particularly for those on lower incomes and/or maybe using food banks . could the welsh government take bolder action to better support low-income families to eat healthily ? dr frank atherton: well , you 've touched on a really important point about inequalities because overweight and obesity is not evenly distributed across our population . it absolutely is more prevalent in more socioeconomically deprived communities , and that 's something that should really concern us all . so , it gets you to questions of availability of fresh food and produce ; it gets you to questions of formulation of products and whether value brands are less healthy than more premium brands . so , it cuts across all of those issues that we talked about in terms of settings and in terms of environment earlier . there is something about the affordability of good-quality healthy food that we need to think about . we do need to think in broad terms—broader terms than just obesity , but we do need to think in broad terms—about how we create a society where families have the wherewithal to lead healthy lives , and that gets you to really important questions about the minimum wage and income poverty . there 's no doubt in my mind—i 'm a public health professional—and there 's no doubt in my mind that economic success and health success go hand in hand . so , you speak to a very deep question there . in terms of what we can do through this particular consultation , there are some things in there about providing better access , but without tackling some of those deeper determinants of health , their impact will necessarily be limited . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: just finally from me , then , you referred earlier to the importance of making every contact count , but some stakeholders have told the committee that they struggle to do that because of difficulties in availability of people to refer to . is that a situation that you recognise and what , really , can we do to improve that situation ? dr frank atherton: well , it depends what you mean as to where to refer to . so , the health system obviously needs to respond to this issue . what we 're seeing across the nhs is a gradual transformation in primary care so that primary care is no longer about going to see your gp , it 's about going to see a practice where you have a range of health professionals . would i like to see more dietetic support , for example , in that setting ? absolutely i would . i think we need to think in terms of that pathway that we were talking about earlier , about access to that kind of advice and support , which can head off people getting into problems and kids getting into problems with weight issues . so , that question of redesign of the pathway really speaks to , i think , your point about , 'well , where do people go when they have problems with their weight ? ' that 's true for adults and it 's true for children as well . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . are there any other questions from members ? no . okay . well , can i thank you both very much for your attendance ? it 's been a really productive session . we appreciate your time . you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy in due course , but thank you again . dr frank atherton: we 'll do that . thank you , chair , and thank you to the committee , because getting some input into the consultation from children 's perspectives , this would be one of the routes we would absolutely welcome . thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much . item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the welsh health specialised services committee on camhs tier 4 provision . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for health and social services also on camhs in-patient provision . paper to note 3 is a letter from the children commissioner for wales on tier 4 camhs provision . paper to note 4 is a letter from qualifications wales to the minister for education on qualifications for the new curriculum . paper to note 5 is a letter from me to the minister for education on the development of the new curriculum . paper to note 6 is a letter from me to the minister for education seeking clarification on the draft additional learning needs code . paper to note 7 is a letter from me to the minister for education seeking clarification on the response to our brexit report . paper to note 8 is a letter from the equality and human rights commission on a cumulative impact assessment briefing for committee , which has been offered . paper to note 9 is a letter from the chair of the petitions committee on a national taskforce for children ’ s mental health . paper to note 10 is a letter to the secretary of state for exiting the european union from the children ’ s commissioners for england , scotland , wales and northern ireland on the implications of brexit for children . there are a few that i 'd like to return to in private , but are members happy to note those ? thank you . okay . item 4 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? suzy davies am: yes . there 's somebody up there . lynne neagle am: thank you .

dr frank atherton was first asked about legislations in the draft plan and their ideas on those things . the use of legislation was affirmed by dr frank atherton but it was just one of the tools they have got , they need to employ them all . then as to sports infrastructure , dr frank atherton , though not an expert in that field , also supported it as a good one to pursue not only in schools but also in a broadening area .

what did dr frank atherton said about legislation to build a healthy environment ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from michelle brown and jack sargeant ; there are no substitutions . can i ask if members have any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . we 'll move on , then , to item 2 , which is our scrutiny of the 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' draft strategy , and i 'm very pleased to welcome dr frank atherton , the chief medical officer for wales , and nathan cook , who is the head of the healthy and active branch at welsh government . thank you , both , for attending this morning . we 're very much looking forward to hearing what you 've got to say . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions . if i can just start by asking about the fact that 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' is an all-age strategy , really , and how confident you are that it will deliver for children and young people . dr frank atherton: well , we 're very confident . i mean , it has to , quite clearly . we do need to think about the present generation , the problems faced by the current generation . we have high prevalence of overweight and obesity among adults—we know that , and we ca n't walk away from that because that 's translating into demand on health services . but we have to take a focus , a future generation 's focus , almost , on the next generation . i do n't write off the current generation , we ca n't afford to do that , but we do need to think about what can we do that would be different for the next generation so that they do n't get into the sorts of problems that we 're currently seeing with overweight and obesity . we know that the consequences of that for our young people are going to be enormous if we do n't do something and something quite soon . we know that overweight children go on to become overweight adults , unfortunately , and that brings all the consequences of multiple disease issues—diabetes is often cited—cancer risk et cetera . so , we have to focus on children , and , in fact , during the consultation , we 've been very clear that we need to engage with children and young people as well . perhaps we 'll get into that at some point , chair , but , yes , i can give you that assurance . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . what my follow-up question , really , is : can you just tell us what kind of engagement you 've had with children and young people to inform the draft strategy ? dr frank atherton: well , nathan may be able to influence some of the detail , but in broad terms , we have discussed with young people in a number of fora . in fact , i was delighted that we had a young person , evie morgan , a schoolgirl from mid wales , who came to the joint launch on the consultation . she met the minister there and gave a very good personal account of her views on obesity and overweight . we 've been visiting a number of schools during the consultation process . i 'm visiting a school , either this week or next week , at treorchy , to talk with teachers and young people there . obviously , we 're hopeful that schools and young people will contribute to the consultation as well . so , we 've had quite good input , i would say , from children and young people . there is always more we can do we and we want to hear those voices . nathan cook: i was going to say , we 've also had a session with youth ambassadors as well , and what we 've actually produced for the consultation is not just the children and young people 's version , but also a toolkit in terms of getting schools really engaged and involved in terms of the work that we want them to do to feed into this as well . so , we 've already had some really good responses from a lot of youth group and schools already . lynne neagle am: and you 've got a structured programme , have you , to roll that out ? okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on leadership , and the first questions are from siân gwenllian . sian gwenllian am: good morning . i 'll be speaking in welsh . the minister for health said yesterday , in answering a question from me on the chamber floor , that you gave him advice not to have a target in terms of reducing obesity among children . could you confirm that that 's what your advice was and tell us why you do n't think that a target is needed ? dr frank atherton: my advice was not that we do n't need a target—we may well need a target , and that 's one of the issues we need to consult on—but that the target that had been adopted in england and in scotland to halve the prevalence of obesity in children was more aspirational than deliverable , and that if we are to choose a target in wales , then we need to balance deliverability with challenge . we need a challenging environment . so , there is something about performance management , because i would be looking to not just the health system but the health and care system and to public services boards to think about how they 're delivering on this , and i think we can use targets to that . but they are one tool in the box that i would think we could use , and part of the consultation is to ask that question—'if we are to go down a route in wales of choosing a target , what might that look like ? ' sian gwenllian am: okay . so , to be clear , you 're not ruling out that maybe we would need a target . dr frank atherton: it 's certainly something that we could consider in terms of the final strategy . sian gwenllian am: and is that your opinion too ? nathan cook: yes . sian gwenllian am: okay . well , that is contrary to what i was told yesterday on the floor of the chamber by the minister , but there we go . i 'm glad to hear that you 're not ruling out having a target , because without a target , without something to aim for , how do we know that we 're getting there ? dr frank atherton: i think your point about evaluation is really important . whatever we produce at the end of this process—and we 're looking to produce a final strategy towards the autumn—we do need to have a strong evaluation . so , some metrics in there , it would seem , would be appropriate , but what those are , what the nature of those are , do we frame them as targets or ambitions—that 's the point we need to consult on . sian gwenllian am: okay . and the other point , of course , is the investment . if the government is going to be successful in terms of the aim of reducing childhood obesity , then it needs to fund and support the actions . have you made an assessment of the level of investment needed to implement this plan ? dr frank atherton: resourcing will be important . we currently do make investments in a number of areas that relate to child health generally , and , of course , obesity and overweight in particular . so , the question of resourcing is important . now , we ca n't quantify an absolute amount of resource that will be needed to deliver until we know exactly what 's going to come out of the consultation and what actions we might want to deliver to a greater degree in wales . a figure of £8 million to £10 million a year has been banded around as a broad kind of area of what we might need to invest , but that would need to be drawn from existing programmes . we need to look at existing programmes , how effective they are . can we make them more effective ? can we get better value from them ? and there may well be a case for new investment , and that 's a question , of course , that would need to be discussed with ministers when we 're producing the final strategy . nathan cook: but i think a key consideration as well is we already know there is investment across health boards in some kind of obesity-related services . so , i think what we really need to think about across wales is how we can drive greater scale , how we can look at current programmes in terms of making sure that they 're better evaluated , and how we can make sure that we 're also drawing up on the existing resources and capacity out there as well . sian gwenllian am: and does the level of investment depend on what the target is—what the goal is ? dr frank atherton: i do n't think you can necessarily just link the two . the issue of resourcing is one that 's there irrespective of whether we choose to put a target in place . sian gwenllian am: but how would we know that it 's being used effectively if there is n't something to aim for ? dr frank atherton: which brings you back to the question about evaluation . we need proper evaluation of the various programmes that we have . sian gwenllian am: yes , but without a target , how can you properly evaluate ? if you do n't know what you 're trying to do , how can you properly evaluate ? anyway , you 're open to suggestions about having a target , which is great . would you agree that government could use the revenue that 's being produced through the levy on soft drinks towards some of these efforts to— ? dr frank atherton: well , of course , there are some consequentials that are coming to the welsh government as part of the levy on sugary soft drinks . that funding , of course , is less than we had anticipated , and that reflects , actually , a success story because industry is reformulating , and so the amount of sugar in soft drinks is already starting to decrease , which is a good thing . but to your question : should we use the funding ? well , of course we should use funding . i 'm not personally in favour of hypothecation , i think i 'm more interested in the totality of resource that goes into public health programmes than into marginal resource . there are , of course , a number of initiatives that we currently fund through the general revenue . and when i think about obesity , i do n't just think about the relatively small marginal amounts of money that come in through whatever source , but i think about the totality of the £7 billion we spend in health and social care and how we can divert and channel some of that towards broad prevention initiatives in general , and towards tackling being overweight and obesity in particular . sian gwenllian am: you 're saying that it 's less than expected . could you give us any kind of figure ? dr frank atherton: i 'm sorry , could you repeat the question ? sian gwenllian am: you say that there is less money that 's come in through these consequentials from the levy , can you mention some sort of figure ? dr frank atherton: the figure that i have in mind is about £56 million that 's coming in in terms of revenue over a two-year period . but i 'd have to confirm that with the committee . what the anticipated— . when the sugar levy was first brought in , there was some modelling at uk level about what level of revenue that would bring , but it was based on the amount of sugar that was currently then in drinks and the fact that the sugar has reduced in drinks , i mean , the total amount available to the uk is less and hence our consequentials are less . nathan may have some precise figures . nathan cook: yes , i was going to say , there was a mid-year report done where the levy has raised £150 million to date since coming into force in april , and the original forecast was £520 million a year . so , i think that shows the amount of work that 's been done by industry around reformulation . sian gwenllian am: and the consequentials of that ? that is the consequential—£150 million . nathan cook: on a uk level . sian gwenllian am: yes , so what 's the welsh consequential ? lynne neagle am: fifty-six . sian gwenllian am: fifty-six ? gosh , that sounds a lot . anyway , it 's a good sum of money and you 're talking about investing £8 million to £10 million . so , obviously , you know , we can be more ambitious because there is money in that pot if that money was ring-fenced for this particular scheme . dr frank atherton: well , the resource is going to be a real issue that we need to address , and i think as nathan has said , there is funding of various initiatives currently in the system , and we need to look at that and make that as effective as possible . will there be a need for some additional resource ? there may well be , and that 's a question that we 'll have to look at in terms of the strategy when we develop it and have a discussion with ministers about the level of resourcing . lynne neagle am: can i just ask on that before siân moves on ? what assessment have you made of how that money is being spent in other uk nations ? because my understanding is that the money is being used in other uk nations to directly impact on obesity . have you given any consideration to— ? as i understand it , that money now is being dispersed around a plethora of programmes , including the transformation programme , and what i found very odd , really , was vaccination , which is surely the core business of the nhs . have you got any view on that ? dr frank atherton: i 'm not sure i understand your point , chair , in terms of the link between the consequentials from— . are you talking about the consequentials from the sugar levy or are you talking about— ? lynne neagle am: yes , because in other nations , it is being used to directly impact on initiatives to tackle obesity , whereas , we 've kind of put it here in wales into the general pot and it 's being used to fund a plethora of different things . dr frank atherton: well , that cuts to what i was talking about . my preference—it 's a personal view—is that hypothecation does n't really help us too much . i mean , what we need to look at is whether the programmes , the sorts of programmes that are being funded in england , or indeed in scotland , are working effectively , and if they are , are they being delivered here in wales ? we have looked very carefully at the plans that england and scotland have for tackling obesity and overweight , and we 've made a comparison with what we 're doing in wales , and our ambition in wales is to go further than those nations , in many ways . but i come back to the point that just linking the hypothecation of a relatively small amount of resource is likely to be less impactful than asking a question of public services boards and of the health system , indeed , about how much money , overall , are we putting into prevention . lynne neagle am: no , i recognise that , and i think we 're talking about additional resource . suzy . suzy davies am: i was just wondering whether you thought that there was a useful psychological link on the part of the public between saying , 'here 's a sugar levy ' , and 'it 's going to be used to help children and adults stay healthier . ' going into a pot , it actually makes it quite difficult to explain the purpose of the tax in the first place . so , i take your overall point , but in terms of the people who we 're trying to help in all this , actually creating a direct link might be quite helpful . dr frank atherton: you may be right . i 'm not a behavioural psychologist . we 'd have to ask— suzy davies am: neither am i. i 'm a person who eats a lot of sugar . [ laughter . ] dr frank atherton: your point 's taken . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: thanks . siân . sian gwenllian am: the last question from me , about partnership working . you 're putting an emphasis on the whole-system approach in implementing the plan , how are you going to create a system that co-ordinates action and drives change across relevant partners , avoiding a situation where it 's everyone 's role , but nobody 's responsibility ? how are you going to avoid that ? dr frank atherton: it 's a very important question , and one of the four strands in the consultation is exactly related to that , around leadership and drive nationally . i 'm not interested in producing a strategy that sits on a shelf . if you look around the world , there are plenty of obesity strategies . you may notice , by the way , that we 've chosen not to talk about an obesity strategy but a healthy weight strategy , because i think having a positive construct is really quite important to us here in wales . but leadership will be really important , and we will need some sort of structure to lead this , to provide oversight . i 'm not a great believer in creating new structures , so we do need something that will give that drive , but the leadership comes from the top down . we need political commitment to this , and that 's why i welcome the input from this committee . so , that needs to be assured . and then we need to make sure that the public sector generally is engaged in this , but it goes way beyond the public sector , of course , because we have to work with industry , and we have to work with communities , and we have to work with the public on this . so we need to think about our governance system for this and how we drive it forward . interestingly , we had quite a large discussion two days ago between health and social care , but also involving the third sector and some members of the public , around how can we drive prevention more generally . it was n't specifically on obesity , but of course obesity came up because it 's such a pressing issue . this question of governance was discussed quite extensively , and we do have governance systems , of course , in wales . we have public services boards , we have regional partnership boards , and how we can get those aligned behind this common agenda is really important . but i 'd like to see—and i know i 'm a public health professional , so i know that only maybe 10 per cent , 15 per cent , possibly 20 per cent of what makes and keeps us healthy as individuals and as communities can be driven through the health system ; but i would like the system to step up and take these kinds of issues more seriously as well . so i 'd be looking for local leadership through directors of public health and indeed through chief executives to work with their public services boards on this . so , we 'll need some sort of national oversight , absolutely , but we need local ownership and local leadership , too . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 've got some questions now from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . delivery of the plan will be led by a national implementation board that will be accountable to ministers . which minister do you believe it should be accountable to , or , given the complexity of obesity , should the board be directly accountable to the first minister ? dr frank atherton: ultimately , the first minister will be responsible for this and will want to have a strong oversight of this . it is often framed as a health issue , and the minister , vaughan gething , has a strong personal commitment to this , i know . we 've talked extensively with him and with sports and recreation colleagues about that , so there 's a link there . it does cut across all portfolios , and so this is an issue that i have discussed with cabinet , and that collective ownership is really important , and will be , because it ca n't just sit in one domain . i think what you do need to have is you do need to have a lead organisation or a lead ministry , and i would see health as—i work within health , so i 'm perhaps biased , but i would see health as leading this , but it needs broad ownership across government . janet finch-saunders am: i know my colleague siân gwenllian mentioned earlier targets and things , but i know in wales we 're not too good at collecting data . what data is currently available on childhood obesity and what metrics will be used to measure progress against the plan 's objectives ? dr frank atherton: well , of course , our main data source is the child measurement programme , which collects information on children entering school aged four or five . that 's our main source of information . if we look at that data , it shows us— . well , i 'm sure you 're familiar with the statistics , but it 'll be just under a third of children at that age who are overweight or obese— janet finch-saunders am: could i just ask—sorry to interrupt—how up to date is that ? dr frank atherton: the last survey was just last year . nathan cook: the data was published last week . dr frank atherton: yes , the lastest data was out last week . janet finch-saunders am: it is pretty up to date . dr frank atherton: so , it 's pretty up to date , and what it shows— . it 's not getting radically worse—there 's always statistical variation in these things—but it 's not getting any better . and , for the first time last year , we did look at the question not just of children who were overweight or obese , but we actually singled out the proportion who are obese , severely obese . so we have a figure for that for the first time , which is about 12 per cent , which is quite shocking , in a way . janet finch-saunders am: it is shocking . dr frank atherton: so , that 's our main source of information . does that answer your question ? janet finch-saunders am: yes , but how will any gaps in your data be addressed ? dr frank atherton: well , one of the questions that are often asked is : could we measure more on a longitudinal basis ? by that i mean in england , for example , children are measured at school entry and then again at year 11—at age 11 or 12. , that kind of age group . and so you do have a longitudinal view over time of what 's happening to children . i think that would be helpful to us in wales , and it 's one of the questions in the consultation about whether we should expand that . obviously , that would have significant resource implications , not just for the funding , but also for schools and for the system to deliver it . but it 's something that maybe would help us in terms of better understanding and better evaluation—the point that was made earlier . nathan cook: and the other data we do have is the millennium cohort study , which has been released , for 14 and 15-year-olds . that 's going to be— . we 're starting to think about how we can utilise some of that data , looking at that longitudinal picture around children as well , which will be really helpful . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . you 've answered my next question . thank you . lynne neagle am: can i just ask about the child measurement programme ? the strategy commits to looking at whether we can have a second measurement taking place in wales . can you just tell us a bit more about your thinking on that and when you would see a second measurement taking place and how you would use that data ? dr frank atherton: i touched on that just now , but personally i do think it would be helpful to have more information . it 's always the case , there 's always a trade-off between the cost of getting that information and the value of the information . so , the question of how it would be used would be really important . there is still a lot that we do n't know . we know an awful lot about obesity and being overweight and the causes of it , but we do n't really have a very clear understanding , in wales at least , of the point at which children start to become overweight . although we know that overweight children tend to go on to become overweight adults , we do n't know what proportion of them between school entry and later teenage years—what those changes are . so , it would help us to have some better understanding , which would help to direct some of our initiatives . i 'd be generally supportive of the principle . we 'll wait and see what comes out in the consultation , and it 's something that we need to give thought to , but we do have to trade off the additionality of what the information would give us with the cost of doing that , of course . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on healthy environments from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . in the draft plan , some of the measures in there suggest legislating for restricting price promotions and banning energy drinks , and that sort of thing . do you think that , if we go down that road , there 's going to be time within this assembly to introduce such legislation ? and , if not , what do you think might be the timescale for such legislation ? dr frank atherton: it may well be that there are things in wales that we might wish to legislate on , and you 've mentioned two of them , and they 're good examples . we would , obviously , need to undertake quite detailed consultation on those and , in a way , we need to mirror what 's happening in england and in scotland to some degree around the consultations they 're having on energy drinks . we also need to influence the issues that are not devolved to us and we seek to do that . as to your question of legislative time , i 'm not really in a position to answer that . what i could say is that legislation may well be one of the outcomes of the consultation . there may well be things that we wish to choose to legislate on . the timing of that will have to be subject to other pressures , and i come back to the point that legislation , of course , is one of the tools that we 've got—we need to deploy them all . dawn bowden am: sure , i understand that , that you could do other things . i know— . we 've heard from the government , on other calls for legislation , that the programme 's very tight , certainly for this term , so i was just wondering whether we might get that in , but okay . if i turn now to the planning system—and this might not be something that you have great deal of knowledge of ; i 'd just welcome your view on this , because , when we discussed with stakeholders , we talked about whether the planning system , for instance , could be used to , as an example , restrict hot food takeaways around schools and so on . would that be a measure that you would support , something like that ? dr frank atherton: i think it 's definitely something we want to look at and , of course , that question is asked in the consultation , so we would like to know people 's views on that . it 's an interesting one . i think there is a question—a really important question—about how we can use the planning system more effectively . i 've discussed with nathan on a number of occasions , with planning colleagues in welsh government and in local authorities , about the art of the possible , let 's say . there may be things that we could think about and we want to get those ideas through the consultation . the specific question around takeaways , particularly takeaways near schools , is often asked . i was very interested to see , up in the north-east , some time ago , that one of the local authorities up there did put a moratorium on the opening of new fast-food venues near to schools , or indeed in areas where levels of obesity and overweight were particularly high . i understand london is now—some london boroughs are now—experimenting with that as well . so , that gave me comfort , because maybe there are powers within local authorities that can be used more effectively . i think my view at the moment is that the jury 's kind of out on whether those are effective and how effective they 're going to be . but the fact that we have some initiatives around the uk does give us an opportunity to study that and to learn from experience perhaps and then , if it is shown to be beneficial , to think about that here in wales , yes . dawn bowden am: sure , because it will only be one of a suite of measures anyway . of itself , it would n't address the problem , but , added to other initiatives , i guess it would . can i just ask you briefly , then , about community sport infrastructure and , in particular , of new schools ? so , welsh government , as you know , has ploughed a huge amount of money into the twenty-first century schools programme . what we heard when we spoke to stakeholders recently , particularly headteachers , was that , in some of the new schools that have been built , we have n't had changing rooms and toilet facilities , for instance , built into the new buildings . so , if we 're going to try and utilise these buildings for general community activity to get kids and the wider public , actually , more active , do you think that 's something that we ought to be building in ? again , not your particular direct area of responsibility , but something that you might have an input into , is that , when we 're developing schools , we should be making sure that they have those kinds of facilities so that they become accessible to the wider public . is that something that you would be prepared to make a recommendation around ? dr frank atherton: well , it 's certainly a fascinating area and one that i think has a lot of potential . it goes— . you 're right to raise it in the context of schools , and i can understand why this committee would , but i think it goes beyond that , actually , into all developments in the public sector and how they 're developed and whether we 're building health into our environment , which perhaps is your starting point . one of the things that i was really pleased to see in terms of the public health ( wales ) act 2017 that was passed a couple of years ago was the use of health impact assessment as a tool , and we 're still working on how that will inform policy and how that will be applied in issues such as policy decisions through government , but also in more downstream issues about how we create the public infrastructure that the public can and should be using . and so i would like to see the use of health impact assessments to a much greater degree to inform those kinds of decisions . if you apply that kind of lens and you take the point , which is inherent in your question , i think , that schools are not just for kids , they 're for communities , then you would—it would lead you to a conclusion that you would perhaps design and build them in a different way . so , on a personal basis , i would certainly support your view that we should be looking to use the sports environment in schools in the same way as we use leisure centres . there are all kinds of barriers in there , and i understand all of that , and it 's not really my field , exactly as you say , but , as a matter of principle , i think it 's a good one to pursue . dawn bowden am: okay . thank you . and widening it out to other public services buildings as well . dr frank atherton: indeed . dawn bowden am: yes . okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 're going to move on now to talk about how we create healthy settings . i 've got some questions from suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you very much . yes , perhaps if we could just stay in this area of education just for a moment , i think we all agree that healthy habits acquired early on probably tend to last quite well , so i wonder if you can tell us a little bit about the healthy and sustainable preschool scheme and whether you think some timescales should be made public about what you expect the achievements from that scheme to be . but , in particular , i was struck with what you said about local leadership , and i just want you to bear that in mind in answering the next question , which is about the foundation phase . you 're probably aware that this committee has heard from various school leaders that they 're struggling in some cases to meet the ratio of staffing for the foundation phase , which potentially compromises the purpose of it in terms of physical activity . i 'm just wondering how the strategy development board is considering that at the moment . is it something that 's come on the radar for the board ? is it something you 're thinking about ? and , if so , who do you think should be responsible for pinning that down a little bit ? because this is education , not health , and— . dr frank atherton: well , look , i 've got to confess to you , i 'm not an educationist , and so the question on staffing numbers in schools is not one that i have been asked to give a deal of consideration to , and it has n't really been discussed , i do n't believe , in the context of development of the strategy . if there is a specific point around that that the committee would like to make in terms of a response into the consultation , which i presume you 'll be making , then we 'd be happy to consider that . as to healthy preschools , i do n't know , nathan may have some view on that . i 've not been closely involved with the work . we have standards and we perhaps need to think about how we tighten those standards and how we—enforce is n't the right word , but how we implement and make sure that those standards are properly implemented , because you 're absolutely right to say that habits are developed early in life . that 's in the preschool ; it 's also in the home of course , and then later in the school . so , we do need to look at all of those as settings and are there more things we can do within those settings to drive healthier behaviours—that 's exactly why we need the consultation . nathan cook: but i would say , through that scheme as well , we 've really got a really good bank of preschools that are actually doing some really great work in this area as well . so , i think the more we can understand the successes that some of those environments are having—you know , how we can roll those out and work across other settings to create that wider impact as well is going to be really important . suzy davies am: okay . thank you . what i 'm thinking about is expectations at that level will be expectations at a slightly older level , which will be contained within the foundation phase . and while you 're quite right—obviously , parents have a role in this , or families—there will be , particularly with the introduction of the new curriculum , certain expectations on schools to provide not just healthy environments but to actively work towards well-being and healthy weight in children and things . and that 's why i asked you about local leadership , because , if it fails for reasons that have nothing to do with the plan at foundation phase , it 's going to fail further up the school years as well . i think it might be something that the board might want to consider here , because at some point there 'll be an accountability question and we will want to know how 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' fits in with the new plans for the new curriculum , and whether it 's merely persuasive and influential or whether it has the weight to place some obligations on school leaders about what they do in their schools . so , this connection , i think , is quite an important one , and , if the strategy development board could consider that , i think it would be very helpful , because this does n't exist in a vacuum . dr frank atherton: well , i 'd certainly be delighted to take that back and we can look at it in terms of how we move from the consultation into the final strategy . it 's certainly a point we can try and look at . suzy davies am: because we will want to know who to ask : 'you 're the accountable person—why has something worked , or not worked ? ' we will need to know that at some point . dr frank atherton: just building on nathan 's point , some of the schools—i know it 's schools rather than the preschools , and i take your point , but some of the schools we 've been working with have absolutely brilliant models of good practice and good local leadership . i remember the minister actually at the launch , and one of the schools was represented there , and they presented—the school came and some of the children came and presented—to the whole audience about the activities that they were undertaking in their school around physical activity and on healthy eating , and it was such a model of good behaviour the question was , 'well , why not everywhere ? ' , so that probably speaks to your question . suzy davies am: okay , well , thank you for that commitment anyway . lynne neagle am: and have you had any discussions , then , with education officials around things like teacher training and cpd , because you 'll be aware the health and social care committee has made a number of recommendations in this area ? it 's crucial that we skill up the staff to develop these things in an appropriate way , is n't it ? dr frank atherton: well , we certainly discuss with education colleagues in welsh government . there 's more we need to do in terms of that , because you 're absolutely right : there 's something about building the whole of the workforce—education is really important , but elsewhere as well ; it 's about how do we really make every contact count , you know , that construct . so , everybody who 's working in the health and social care system should have a role in this ; everybody who works in education , whether it 's the old— . do we still have dinner ladies ? or teachers , you know , they have a role to play in supporting children to be as healthy as they possibly can . and , actually , i see them , chair , as a really essential part of the public health workforce . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . suzy , are you going to do your curriculum one ? suzy davies am: well , i 've bound it in together , but that final point you make about teachers being part of the answer to this , they 're already under a range of pressures : is it fair to make them accountable for whether this works or not ? or should that local leadership lie somewhere else ? i do n't expect you to pin down a person today . dr frank atherton: i would n't like to blame a teacher or performance manage them on the proportion of their children in their class who are overweight . that would clearly be nonsense , would n't it ? but they are part of the solution , and so the accountability lies further up the chain , does n't it ? the question i think we would have , and public services boards might well ask , and the local education authorities may well ask , is : how effective is any particular school at driving forwards these healthy behaviours ? suzy davies am: okay , thank you . i 'll leave some questions for hefin . lynne neagle am: hefin . hefin david am: is that all right , chair ? lynne neagle am: you 've got the floor , hefin . hefin david am: thank you , chair . you make a commitment to embedding physical activity at an early stage in primary school education . what would that look like ? dr frank atherton: just in terms of the physical activity , i have to say it 's a really important dimension and we need to move further on . we know not enough of our children are physically active and they 're not meeting the various guidelines , so it 's really important . it does n't actually have as much of an impact on weight as the dietary issue . i 'd just say that . it 's really important for all sorts of reasons . it does have an impact on healthy weight , but it has a huge impact in terms of socialisation , in terms of mental health issues , et cetera , you know . so—i 'm sorry , i 've lost track of your question . nathan cook: i 'd just say that one thing we have got in train is , obviously , sport wales , public health wales and natural resources wales—we have them working together as a collaborative at the moment to look at how their joint delivery on physical activity can be taken forward more efficiently . so , one of the things they are looking at is obviously the schools programmes they do through eco-schools , the welsh network of healthy schools and the sports programme to really think about that physical activity and how we can have better join up in terms of the programmes that we 're already delivering as well . hefin david am: with that in mind , i 'm going to confess to you , chief medical officer , i did anything in school i could to avoid physical education lessons . i hated it . i did n't feel engaged with it . yet , two weeks ago , i played for the assembly rugby team—i wanted to get that in . the school sports survey , that would suggest that we 're still not hitting those targets with children . how can we get children more engaged with physical education in ways that— ? i felt completely alienated in school . dr frank atherton: well , you 're right , and many people go through that same journey and come to physical activity later in life , and that 's great if they do that . the sad reality is that many people do n't , and we also know that there are issues around the dropping off , particularly for girls , of physical activity towards the teenage years . so , there are specific moments that we need to understand . we do have a lot of information about these kinds of things . public health wales is very good at collating the information . we do need to turn that into programmes . i mean , at the heart of it , it 's about making sports and physical activity enjoyable and attractive to people . sometimes that 's easier , i sense , for boys than for girls , but we need to tailor things to different audiences . hefin david am: yes , that 's the trick , is n't it ? it 's about finding out what children enjoy doing . that could be quite a wide and varied range of things . is that the key ? dawn bowden am: it 's not all about organised team sports . hefin david am: yes . as dawn said , it 's not just about organised team sports . there are some very individual activities you could do . dr frank atherton: absolutely , yes . and that 's where i think— . i 'm delighted that sport wales has moved beyond . it 's not just about elite sports ; it 's about getting everybody engaged and active in sports , and that partnership with public health wales that nathan talked about is really important , because we need a population approach to driving physical activity . hefin david am: so , do you think , with that in mind , we need statutory guidance for schools on physical education ? dr frank atherton: again , i 'd look to the consultation as to whether there was an appetite for any kind of guidance . it may well be that that is something that could be considered . hefin david am: okay . and finally , with regard to free school meals to all pupils in primary and secondary schools , do you think that extending that to all pupils would be beneficial in providing a more varied diet for pupils ? dr frank atherton: i do n't have a personal view on that . i think it 's the quality of the food that kids are getting , whether that comes from home or through school , and whether it 's free or whether it 's paid for . i think it 's the quality of the food that we need to focus on . the question of children being hungry at school is a really important one and needs to be addressed at a national level . i think that 's a— hefin david am: so , you think that 's more about the provision of food for those who might not have access to it than providing a varied diet . dr frank atherton: i think it 's important that children have access to food , absolutely , if that 's your question , but we also need to look at the quality of the food and what 's in that food offer . hefin david am: but you do n't necessarily think universal provision would— . dr frank atherton: i do n't have a clear view on that . i know there 's a larger debate about that . hefin david am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: i 've got some supplementaries from janet and then suzy . janet finch-saunders am: yes . i 've been around some amazing schools in my own constituency , where they 've got proper canteen facilities for pupils and really , really good produce in the meals . however , there 's probably only a third having school meals ; the rest are packed lunches . and , to be honest , i 've been very surprised and shocked at what i 've seen of the quality of the food in the packed lunches . nobody can really police , and i would n't want to see parents being policed over what goes in a packed lunch , so if there is data out there to suggest that there 's a larger percentage of parents providing packed lunched that are really not good at all , then there is some merit to be said for what hefin is— . me , personally , i 'd love to see the introduction of universal school meals . i think it 's been a very retrograde step , going backwards . would you be willing to carry out any research ? dr frank atherton: so , i mean , your point about food that 's brought in in the packed lunches is a really important one , and i 've talked to some headteachers as well about this . we could go down a route of guidance and prohibition , but that gets you into the role of nanny in chief and i do n't really see that as my role or government 's role , and i do n't think it 's effective either . do you remember— ? you must have seen on tv—i think it was in scotland ; i do n't know if it 's happened in wales—parents pushing the fish and chip packets through the school railings . we do n't need to get into that . what i have seen , though , is some really good innovative practice in schools where , for example , they reward children for bringing the healthy options . schools can give guidance to parents about what would be a healthy lunch and what sort of things might be expected to be seen in the lunch box . and you can reward children , and children do respond to rewards . so , i 've seen some of those approaches that have transformed , actually , the offer of what comes in school boxes . but i think just banning chocolate bars and crisps in the packed lunch is unlikely to be successful . janet finch-saunders am: we ca n't do that . so , my point to the question was : is n't there some merit , perhaps , about all children being equal and eating similar good-quality food in schools ? dr frank atherton: yes . that gets you back to the question about universal school meals . janet finch-saunders am: perhaps some of that £56 million sugar tax , even . who knows ? lynne neagle am: suzy . suzy davies am: yes . mine is just a short question . the draft plan commits , does n't it , to updating the healthy eating in schools regulations—the 2013 regulations ? i appreciate this is a consultation , but what is it that needs changing in those regulations at the moment , just to give us a bit of steer ? nathan cook: it 's mainly on sugar content , so , obviously , they do n't adhere to current scientific advisory committee on nutrition guidelines around sugar levels . so , what we 'd want to consider is , you know , what we need to be careful of is unintended consequences of changing that , as well , if you see a shift to more kids bringing in school packed lunches as well . so , i think we want to consider the best way of doing that and consider through the consultation how we can go about it . suzy davies am: all right . so , it 's very pertinent to janet 's question , in that way . okay , so it 's mainly about sugar , but it could be about other things as well . okay . thanks . lynne neagle am: okay . the next questions are from janet anyway ; firstly , on the clinical obesity pathway . janet finch-saunders am: the 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' plan commits to a review of the clinical obesity pathway . what are the time frames for this review , and what do you think are the basic essentials of a clinical obesity pathway for children and young people ? dr frank atherton: we do have a pathway for managing overweight , and that 's been in place since about 2010 , i believe , and we do need to bring that up to date in terms of current knowledge and experiences . we 've challenged public health wales ; we 've asked public health wales to undertake a review of that pathway , and they are going through that process now . i 'm not sure of exactly the time frame that we have given them for that . nathan cook: we were asking them to review the pathway before we launch the final strategy in october because , obviously , what we want is for that to inform what that final strategy looks like . so , we 'll be looking probably early autumn for them to report back on that . dr frank atherton: the second point of your question about what are the essential elements , i mean , they are already there ; we need to tweak them and we need to make sure that they 're properly delivered . but it 's a tiered approach , so , having access to information through schools and through communities and into families is part of the first step of that . and then , if children are overweight , it 's a question about how they 're identified . there are questions about the ability of the public to recognise large children , so there may be an issue there . but when children are running into issues around weight , what kind of interventions can be put in , either through primary care or through communities through health visitors , et cetera ? and then of course we do have—and we 've started to shine a light on this , have n't we—the very overweight children . i do n't think we have enough in the way of targeted support to be able to support those . there are programmes available , but they 're perhaps not universally provided . so , i think there 's something about looking at our whole pathway , mapping out what the current evidence now shows us is needed , and then thinking about what is our provision in wales and what do we need to do to bring that up to the level of the places that are the best . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . the draft plan recognises the importance of the first 1,000 days , but it does n't appear to include any new proposals to help parents to enable lifestyle changes . it lists existing initiatives , such as the healthy child wales programme and breastfeeding action plan . are you satisfied that the draft plan does enough to address the influence that family and parents have on children 's healthy weight behaviours , particularly in the first 1,000 days ? dr frank atherton: well , the first 1,000 days are really critically in shaping lives , as i 'm sure you 'd agree . we are absolutely open to any other suggestions that the public or this committee have as to what more we can and should do . there are a number of things , the sorts of programmes you 've mentioned , that i think could be more effective . we 're currently looking at breastfeeding because it starts before birth , actually . we know that children who are breastfed are less likely to suffer from obesity in childhood and , indeed , to go on to be obese adults . so , we do need to go further on that . we do have some programmes—healthy working wales , et cetera—that need to be improved . if there are other interventions in other areas that we need to take , then we 'd be delighted to hear what they are , but those are the ones that have jumped out so far . nathan cook: can i just say— ? one of the proposals we 're looking for is , obviously , we know that during pregnancy it 's a really critical time when we can actually look to work with mothers . we know from looking at some of the behaviour change that it 's actually a really critical point when new mothers really start thinking about their lives , wanting the best for their child and their families . so , what we are thinking about is how we could develop some kind of approaches to that going forward . but we know our healthy start scheme is also a good lever for us , just in terms of how we can look to improve that kind of dietary offer at the earliest stage as well . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . finally , we know that for some families day-to-day challenges can make it difficult for them to make healthy choices , particularly for those on lower incomes and/or maybe using food banks . could the welsh government take bolder action to better support low-income families to eat healthily ? dr frank atherton: well , you 've touched on a really important point about inequalities because overweight and obesity is not evenly distributed across our population . it absolutely is more prevalent in more socioeconomically deprived communities , and that 's something that should really concern us all . so , it gets you to questions of availability of fresh food and produce ; it gets you to questions of formulation of products and whether value brands are less healthy than more premium brands . so , it cuts across all of those issues that we talked about in terms of settings and in terms of environment earlier . there is something about the affordability of good-quality healthy food that we need to think about . we do need to think in broad terms—broader terms than just obesity , but we do need to think in broad terms—about how we create a society where families have the wherewithal to lead healthy lives , and that gets you to really important questions about the minimum wage and income poverty . there 's no doubt in my mind—i 'm a public health professional—and there 's no doubt in my mind that economic success and health success go hand in hand . so , you speak to a very deep question there . in terms of what we can do through this particular consultation , there are some things in there about providing better access , but without tackling some of those deeper determinants of health , their impact will necessarily be limited . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: just finally from me , then , you referred earlier to the importance of making every contact count , but some stakeholders have told the committee that they struggle to do that because of difficulties in availability of people to refer to . is that a situation that you recognise and what , really , can we do to improve that situation ? dr frank atherton: well , it depends what you mean as to where to refer to . so , the health system obviously needs to respond to this issue . what we 're seeing across the nhs is a gradual transformation in primary care so that primary care is no longer about going to see your gp , it 's about going to see a practice where you have a range of health professionals . would i like to see more dietetic support , for example , in that setting ? absolutely i would . i think we need to think in terms of that pathway that we were talking about earlier , about access to that kind of advice and support , which can head off people getting into problems and kids getting into problems with weight issues . so , that question of redesign of the pathway really speaks to , i think , your point about , 'well , where do people go when they have problems with their weight ? ' that 's true for adults and it 's true for children as well . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . are there any other questions from members ? no . okay . well , can i thank you both very much for your attendance ? it 's been a really productive session . we appreciate your time . you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy in due course , but thank you again . dr frank atherton: we 'll do that . thank you , chair , and thank you to the committee , because getting some input into the consultation from children 's perspectives , this would be one of the routes we would absolutely welcome . thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much . item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the welsh health specialised services committee on camhs tier 4 provision . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for health and social services also on camhs in-patient provision . paper to note 3 is a letter from the children commissioner for wales on tier 4 camhs provision . paper to note 4 is a letter from qualifications wales to the minister for education on qualifications for the new curriculum . paper to note 5 is a letter from me to the minister for education on the development of the new curriculum . paper to note 6 is a letter from me to the minister for education seeking clarification on the draft additional learning needs code . paper to note 7 is a letter from me to the minister for education seeking clarification on the response to our brexit report . paper to note 8 is a letter from the equality and human rights commission on a cumulative impact assessment briefing for committee , which has been offered . paper to note 9 is a letter from the chair of the petitions committee on a national taskforce for children ’ s mental health . paper to note 10 is a letter to the secretary of state for exiting the european union from the children ’ s commissioners for england , scotland , wales and northern ireland on the implications of brexit for children . there are a few that i 'd like to return to in private , but are members happy to note those ? thank you . okay . item 4 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? suzy davies am: yes . there 's somebody up there . lynne neagle am: thank you .

according to dr frank atherton 's answer to legislations ' timing , it was very clear that the implementation of legislation to build a healthy environment was very approved by dr frank atherton and even by a large group in the consultation . dr frank atherton reviewed that they needed a mirror to see what had been happening in this country and legislation was a good way and took some examples of food takeaways which showed that they needed to consider effectiveness things .

what did dawn bowden am mean when he talked about sports infrastructure ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from michelle brown and jack sargeant ; there are no substitutions . can i ask if members have any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . we 'll move on , then , to item 2 , which is our scrutiny of the 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' draft strategy , and i 'm very pleased to welcome dr frank atherton , the chief medical officer for wales , and nathan cook , who is the head of the healthy and active branch at welsh government . thank you , both , for attending this morning . we 're very much looking forward to hearing what you 've got to say . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions . if i can just start by asking about the fact that 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' is an all-age strategy , really , and how confident you are that it will deliver for children and young people . dr frank atherton: well , we 're very confident . i mean , it has to , quite clearly . we do need to think about the present generation , the problems faced by the current generation . we have high prevalence of overweight and obesity among adults—we know that , and we ca n't walk away from that because that 's translating into demand on health services . but we have to take a focus , a future generation 's focus , almost , on the next generation . i do n't write off the current generation , we ca n't afford to do that , but we do need to think about what can we do that would be different for the next generation so that they do n't get into the sorts of problems that we 're currently seeing with overweight and obesity . we know that the consequences of that for our young people are going to be enormous if we do n't do something and something quite soon . we know that overweight children go on to become overweight adults , unfortunately , and that brings all the consequences of multiple disease issues—diabetes is often cited—cancer risk et cetera . so , we have to focus on children , and , in fact , during the consultation , we 've been very clear that we need to engage with children and young people as well . perhaps we 'll get into that at some point , chair , but , yes , i can give you that assurance . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . what my follow-up question , really , is : can you just tell us what kind of engagement you 've had with children and young people to inform the draft strategy ? dr frank atherton: well , nathan may be able to influence some of the detail , but in broad terms , we have discussed with young people in a number of fora . in fact , i was delighted that we had a young person , evie morgan , a schoolgirl from mid wales , who came to the joint launch on the consultation . she met the minister there and gave a very good personal account of her views on obesity and overweight . we 've been visiting a number of schools during the consultation process . i 'm visiting a school , either this week or next week , at treorchy , to talk with teachers and young people there . obviously , we 're hopeful that schools and young people will contribute to the consultation as well . so , we 've had quite good input , i would say , from children and young people . there is always more we can do we and we want to hear those voices . nathan cook: i was going to say , we 've also had a session with youth ambassadors as well , and what we 've actually produced for the consultation is not just the children and young people 's version , but also a toolkit in terms of getting schools really engaged and involved in terms of the work that we want them to do to feed into this as well . so , we 've already had some really good responses from a lot of youth group and schools already . lynne neagle am: and you 've got a structured programme , have you , to roll that out ? okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on leadership , and the first questions are from siân gwenllian . sian gwenllian am: good morning . i 'll be speaking in welsh . the minister for health said yesterday , in answering a question from me on the chamber floor , that you gave him advice not to have a target in terms of reducing obesity among children . could you confirm that that 's what your advice was and tell us why you do n't think that a target is needed ? dr frank atherton: my advice was not that we do n't need a target—we may well need a target , and that 's one of the issues we need to consult on—but that the target that had been adopted in england and in scotland to halve the prevalence of obesity in children was more aspirational than deliverable , and that if we are to choose a target in wales , then we need to balance deliverability with challenge . we need a challenging environment . so , there is something about performance management , because i would be looking to not just the health system but the health and care system and to public services boards to think about how they 're delivering on this , and i think we can use targets to that . but they are one tool in the box that i would think we could use , and part of the consultation is to ask that question—'if we are to go down a route in wales of choosing a target , what might that look like ? ' sian gwenllian am: okay . so , to be clear , you 're not ruling out that maybe we would need a target . dr frank atherton: it 's certainly something that we could consider in terms of the final strategy . sian gwenllian am: and is that your opinion too ? nathan cook: yes . sian gwenllian am: okay . well , that is contrary to what i was told yesterday on the floor of the chamber by the minister , but there we go . i 'm glad to hear that you 're not ruling out having a target , because without a target , without something to aim for , how do we know that we 're getting there ? dr frank atherton: i think your point about evaluation is really important . whatever we produce at the end of this process—and we 're looking to produce a final strategy towards the autumn—we do need to have a strong evaluation . so , some metrics in there , it would seem , would be appropriate , but what those are , what the nature of those are , do we frame them as targets or ambitions—that 's the point we need to consult on . sian gwenllian am: okay . and the other point , of course , is the investment . if the government is going to be successful in terms of the aim of reducing childhood obesity , then it needs to fund and support the actions . have you made an assessment of the level of investment needed to implement this plan ? dr frank atherton: resourcing will be important . we currently do make investments in a number of areas that relate to child health generally , and , of course , obesity and overweight in particular . so , the question of resourcing is important . now , we ca n't quantify an absolute amount of resource that will be needed to deliver until we know exactly what 's going to come out of the consultation and what actions we might want to deliver to a greater degree in wales . a figure of £8 million to £10 million a year has been banded around as a broad kind of area of what we might need to invest , but that would need to be drawn from existing programmes . we need to look at existing programmes , how effective they are . can we make them more effective ? can we get better value from them ? and there may well be a case for new investment , and that 's a question , of course , that would need to be discussed with ministers when we 're producing the final strategy . nathan cook: but i think a key consideration as well is we already know there is investment across health boards in some kind of obesity-related services . so , i think what we really need to think about across wales is how we can drive greater scale , how we can look at current programmes in terms of making sure that they 're better evaluated , and how we can make sure that we 're also drawing up on the existing resources and capacity out there as well . sian gwenllian am: and does the level of investment depend on what the target is—what the goal is ? dr frank atherton: i do n't think you can necessarily just link the two . the issue of resourcing is one that 's there irrespective of whether we choose to put a target in place . sian gwenllian am: but how would we know that it 's being used effectively if there is n't something to aim for ? dr frank atherton: which brings you back to the question about evaluation . we need proper evaluation of the various programmes that we have . sian gwenllian am: yes , but without a target , how can you properly evaluate ? if you do n't know what you 're trying to do , how can you properly evaluate ? anyway , you 're open to suggestions about having a target , which is great . would you agree that government could use the revenue that 's being produced through the levy on soft drinks towards some of these efforts to— ? dr frank atherton: well , of course , there are some consequentials that are coming to the welsh government as part of the levy on sugary soft drinks . that funding , of course , is less than we had anticipated , and that reflects , actually , a success story because industry is reformulating , and so the amount of sugar in soft drinks is already starting to decrease , which is a good thing . but to your question : should we use the funding ? well , of course we should use funding . i 'm not personally in favour of hypothecation , i think i 'm more interested in the totality of resource that goes into public health programmes than into marginal resource . there are , of course , a number of initiatives that we currently fund through the general revenue . and when i think about obesity , i do n't just think about the relatively small marginal amounts of money that come in through whatever source , but i think about the totality of the £7 billion we spend in health and social care and how we can divert and channel some of that towards broad prevention initiatives in general , and towards tackling being overweight and obesity in particular . sian gwenllian am: you 're saying that it 's less than expected . could you give us any kind of figure ? dr frank atherton: i 'm sorry , could you repeat the question ? sian gwenllian am: you say that there is less money that 's come in through these consequentials from the levy , can you mention some sort of figure ? dr frank atherton: the figure that i have in mind is about £56 million that 's coming in in terms of revenue over a two-year period . but i 'd have to confirm that with the committee . what the anticipated— . when the sugar levy was first brought in , there was some modelling at uk level about what level of revenue that would bring , but it was based on the amount of sugar that was currently then in drinks and the fact that the sugar has reduced in drinks , i mean , the total amount available to the uk is less and hence our consequentials are less . nathan may have some precise figures . nathan cook: yes , i was going to say , there was a mid-year report done where the levy has raised £150 million to date since coming into force in april , and the original forecast was £520 million a year . so , i think that shows the amount of work that 's been done by industry around reformulation . sian gwenllian am: and the consequentials of that ? that is the consequential—£150 million . nathan cook: on a uk level . sian gwenllian am: yes , so what 's the welsh consequential ? lynne neagle am: fifty-six . sian gwenllian am: fifty-six ? gosh , that sounds a lot . anyway , it 's a good sum of money and you 're talking about investing £8 million to £10 million . so , obviously , you know , we can be more ambitious because there is money in that pot if that money was ring-fenced for this particular scheme . dr frank atherton: well , the resource is going to be a real issue that we need to address , and i think as nathan has said , there is funding of various initiatives currently in the system , and we need to look at that and make that as effective as possible . will there be a need for some additional resource ? there may well be , and that 's a question that we 'll have to look at in terms of the strategy when we develop it and have a discussion with ministers about the level of resourcing . lynne neagle am: can i just ask on that before siân moves on ? what assessment have you made of how that money is being spent in other uk nations ? because my understanding is that the money is being used in other uk nations to directly impact on obesity . have you given any consideration to— ? as i understand it , that money now is being dispersed around a plethora of programmes , including the transformation programme , and what i found very odd , really , was vaccination , which is surely the core business of the nhs . have you got any view on that ? dr frank atherton: i 'm not sure i understand your point , chair , in terms of the link between the consequentials from— . are you talking about the consequentials from the sugar levy or are you talking about— ? lynne neagle am: yes , because in other nations , it is being used to directly impact on initiatives to tackle obesity , whereas , we 've kind of put it here in wales into the general pot and it 's being used to fund a plethora of different things . dr frank atherton: well , that cuts to what i was talking about . my preference—it 's a personal view—is that hypothecation does n't really help us too much . i mean , what we need to look at is whether the programmes , the sorts of programmes that are being funded in england , or indeed in scotland , are working effectively , and if they are , are they being delivered here in wales ? we have looked very carefully at the plans that england and scotland have for tackling obesity and overweight , and we 've made a comparison with what we 're doing in wales , and our ambition in wales is to go further than those nations , in many ways . but i come back to the point that just linking the hypothecation of a relatively small amount of resource is likely to be less impactful than asking a question of public services boards and of the health system , indeed , about how much money , overall , are we putting into prevention . lynne neagle am: no , i recognise that , and i think we 're talking about additional resource . suzy . suzy davies am: i was just wondering whether you thought that there was a useful psychological link on the part of the public between saying , 'here 's a sugar levy ' , and 'it 's going to be used to help children and adults stay healthier . ' going into a pot , it actually makes it quite difficult to explain the purpose of the tax in the first place . so , i take your overall point , but in terms of the people who we 're trying to help in all this , actually creating a direct link might be quite helpful . dr frank atherton: you may be right . i 'm not a behavioural psychologist . we 'd have to ask— suzy davies am: neither am i. i 'm a person who eats a lot of sugar . [ laughter . ] dr frank atherton: your point 's taken . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: thanks . siân . sian gwenllian am: the last question from me , about partnership working . you 're putting an emphasis on the whole-system approach in implementing the plan , how are you going to create a system that co-ordinates action and drives change across relevant partners , avoiding a situation where it 's everyone 's role , but nobody 's responsibility ? how are you going to avoid that ? dr frank atherton: it 's a very important question , and one of the four strands in the consultation is exactly related to that , around leadership and drive nationally . i 'm not interested in producing a strategy that sits on a shelf . if you look around the world , there are plenty of obesity strategies . you may notice , by the way , that we 've chosen not to talk about an obesity strategy but a healthy weight strategy , because i think having a positive construct is really quite important to us here in wales . but leadership will be really important , and we will need some sort of structure to lead this , to provide oversight . i 'm not a great believer in creating new structures , so we do need something that will give that drive , but the leadership comes from the top down . we need political commitment to this , and that 's why i welcome the input from this committee . so , that needs to be assured . and then we need to make sure that the public sector generally is engaged in this , but it goes way beyond the public sector , of course , because we have to work with industry , and we have to work with communities , and we have to work with the public on this . so we need to think about our governance system for this and how we drive it forward . interestingly , we had quite a large discussion two days ago between health and social care , but also involving the third sector and some members of the public , around how can we drive prevention more generally . it was n't specifically on obesity , but of course obesity came up because it 's such a pressing issue . this question of governance was discussed quite extensively , and we do have governance systems , of course , in wales . we have public services boards , we have regional partnership boards , and how we can get those aligned behind this common agenda is really important . but i 'd like to see—and i know i 'm a public health professional , so i know that only maybe 10 per cent , 15 per cent , possibly 20 per cent of what makes and keeps us healthy as individuals and as communities can be driven through the health system ; but i would like the system to step up and take these kinds of issues more seriously as well . so i 'd be looking for local leadership through directors of public health and indeed through chief executives to work with their public services boards on this . so , we 'll need some sort of national oversight , absolutely , but we need local ownership and local leadership , too . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 've got some questions now from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . delivery of the plan will be led by a national implementation board that will be accountable to ministers . which minister do you believe it should be accountable to , or , given the complexity of obesity , should the board be directly accountable to the first minister ? dr frank atherton: ultimately , the first minister will be responsible for this and will want to have a strong oversight of this . it is often framed as a health issue , and the minister , vaughan gething , has a strong personal commitment to this , i know . we 've talked extensively with him and with sports and recreation colleagues about that , so there 's a link there . it does cut across all portfolios , and so this is an issue that i have discussed with cabinet , and that collective ownership is really important , and will be , because it ca n't just sit in one domain . i think what you do need to have is you do need to have a lead organisation or a lead ministry , and i would see health as—i work within health , so i 'm perhaps biased , but i would see health as leading this , but it needs broad ownership across government . janet finch-saunders am: i know my colleague siân gwenllian mentioned earlier targets and things , but i know in wales we 're not too good at collecting data . what data is currently available on childhood obesity and what metrics will be used to measure progress against the plan 's objectives ? dr frank atherton: well , of course , our main data source is the child measurement programme , which collects information on children entering school aged four or five . that 's our main source of information . if we look at that data , it shows us— . well , i 'm sure you 're familiar with the statistics , but it 'll be just under a third of children at that age who are overweight or obese— janet finch-saunders am: could i just ask—sorry to interrupt—how up to date is that ? dr frank atherton: the last survey was just last year . nathan cook: the data was published last week . dr frank atherton: yes , the lastest data was out last week . janet finch-saunders am: it is pretty up to date . dr frank atherton: so , it 's pretty up to date , and what it shows— . it 's not getting radically worse—there 's always statistical variation in these things—but it 's not getting any better . and , for the first time last year , we did look at the question not just of children who were overweight or obese , but we actually singled out the proportion who are obese , severely obese . so we have a figure for that for the first time , which is about 12 per cent , which is quite shocking , in a way . janet finch-saunders am: it is shocking . dr frank atherton: so , that 's our main source of information . does that answer your question ? janet finch-saunders am: yes , but how will any gaps in your data be addressed ? dr frank atherton: well , one of the questions that are often asked is : could we measure more on a longitudinal basis ? by that i mean in england , for example , children are measured at school entry and then again at year 11—at age 11 or 12. , that kind of age group . and so you do have a longitudinal view over time of what 's happening to children . i think that would be helpful to us in wales , and it 's one of the questions in the consultation about whether we should expand that . obviously , that would have significant resource implications , not just for the funding , but also for schools and for the system to deliver it . but it 's something that maybe would help us in terms of better understanding and better evaluation—the point that was made earlier . nathan cook: and the other data we do have is the millennium cohort study , which has been released , for 14 and 15-year-olds . that 's going to be— . we 're starting to think about how we can utilise some of that data , looking at that longitudinal picture around children as well , which will be really helpful . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . you 've answered my next question . thank you . lynne neagle am: can i just ask about the child measurement programme ? the strategy commits to looking at whether we can have a second measurement taking place in wales . can you just tell us a bit more about your thinking on that and when you would see a second measurement taking place and how you would use that data ? dr frank atherton: i touched on that just now , but personally i do think it would be helpful to have more information . it 's always the case , there 's always a trade-off between the cost of getting that information and the value of the information . so , the question of how it would be used would be really important . there is still a lot that we do n't know . we know an awful lot about obesity and being overweight and the causes of it , but we do n't really have a very clear understanding , in wales at least , of the point at which children start to become overweight . although we know that overweight children tend to go on to become overweight adults , we do n't know what proportion of them between school entry and later teenage years—what those changes are . so , it would help us to have some better understanding , which would help to direct some of our initiatives . i 'd be generally supportive of the principle . we 'll wait and see what comes out in the consultation , and it 's something that we need to give thought to , but we do have to trade off the additionality of what the information would give us with the cost of doing that , of course . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on healthy environments from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . in the draft plan , some of the measures in there suggest legislating for restricting price promotions and banning energy drinks , and that sort of thing . do you think that , if we go down that road , there 's going to be time within this assembly to introduce such legislation ? and , if not , what do you think might be the timescale for such legislation ? dr frank atherton: it may well be that there are things in wales that we might wish to legislate on , and you 've mentioned two of them , and they 're good examples . we would , obviously , need to undertake quite detailed consultation on those and , in a way , we need to mirror what 's happening in england and in scotland to some degree around the consultations they 're having on energy drinks . we also need to influence the issues that are not devolved to us and we seek to do that . as to your question of legislative time , i 'm not really in a position to answer that . what i could say is that legislation may well be one of the outcomes of the consultation . there may well be things that we wish to choose to legislate on . the timing of that will have to be subject to other pressures , and i come back to the point that legislation , of course , is one of the tools that we 've got—we need to deploy them all . dawn bowden am: sure , i understand that , that you could do other things . i know— . we 've heard from the government , on other calls for legislation , that the programme 's very tight , certainly for this term , so i was just wondering whether we might get that in , but okay . if i turn now to the planning system—and this might not be something that you have great deal of knowledge of ; i 'd just welcome your view on this , because , when we discussed with stakeholders , we talked about whether the planning system , for instance , could be used to , as an example , restrict hot food takeaways around schools and so on . would that be a measure that you would support , something like that ? dr frank atherton: i think it 's definitely something we want to look at and , of course , that question is asked in the consultation , so we would like to know people 's views on that . it 's an interesting one . i think there is a question—a really important question—about how we can use the planning system more effectively . i 've discussed with nathan on a number of occasions , with planning colleagues in welsh government and in local authorities , about the art of the possible , let 's say . there may be things that we could think about and we want to get those ideas through the consultation . the specific question around takeaways , particularly takeaways near schools , is often asked . i was very interested to see , up in the north-east , some time ago , that one of the local authorities up there did put a moratorium on the opening of new fast-food venues near to schools , or indeed in areas where levels of obesity and overweight were particularly high . i understand london is now—some london boroughs are now—experimenting with that as well . so , that gave me comfort , because maybe there are powers within local authorities that can be used more effectively . i think my view at the moment is that the jury 's kind of out on whether those are effective and how effective they 're going to be . but the fact that we have some initiatives around the uk does give us an opportunity to study that and to learn from experience perhaps and then , if it is shown to be beneficial , to think about that here in wales , yes . dawn bowden am: sure , because it will only be one of a suite of measures anyway . of itself , it would n't address the problem , but , added to other initiatives , i guess it would . can i just ask you briefly , then , about community sport infrastructure and , in particular , of new schools ? so , welsh government , as you know , has ploughed a huge amount of money into the twenty-first century schools programme . what we heard when we spoke to stakeholders recently , particularly headteachers , was that , in some of the new schools that have been built , we have n't had changing rooms and toilet facilities , for instance , built into the new buildings . so , if we 're going to try and utilise these buildings for general community activity to get kids and the wider public , actually , more active , do you think that 's something that we ought to be building in ? again , not your particular direct area of responsibility , but something that you might have an input into , is that , when we 're developing schools , we should be making sure that they have those kinds of facilities so that they become accessible to the wider public . is that something that you would be prepared to make a recommendation around ? dr frank atherton: well , it 's certainly a fascinating area and one that i think has a lot of potential . it goes— . you 're right to raise it in the context of schools , and i can understand why this committee would , but i think it goes beyond that , actually , into all developments in the public sector and how they 're developed and whether we 're building health into our environment , which perhaps is your starting point . one of the things that i was really pleased to see in terms of the public health ( wales ) act 2017 that was passed a couple of years ago was the use of health impact assessment as a tool , and we 're still working on how that will inform policy and how that will be applied in issues such as policy decisions through government , but also in more downstream issues about how we create the public infrastructure that the public can and should be using . and so i would like to see the use of health impact assessments to a much greater degree to inform those kinds of decisions . if you apply that kind of lens and you take the point , which is inherent in your question , i think , that schools are not just for kids , they 're for communities , then you would—it would lead you to a conclusion that you would perhaps design and build them in a different way . so , on a personal basis , i would certainly support your view that we should be looking to use the sports environment in schools in the same way as we use leisure centres . there are all kinds of barriers in there , and i understand all of that , and it 's not really my field , exactly as you say , but , as a matter of principle , i think it 's a good one to pursue . dawn bowden am: okay . thank you . and widening it out to other public services buildings as well . dr frank atherton: indeed . dawn bowden am: yes . okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 're going to move on now to talk about how we create healthy settings . i 've got some questions from suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you very much . yes , perhaps if we could just stay in this area of education just for a moment , i think we all agree that healthy habits acquired early on probably tend to last quite well , so i wonder if you can tell us a little bit about the healthy and sustainable preschool scheme and whether you think some timescales should be made public about what you expect the achievements from that scheme to be . but , in particular , i was struck with what you said about local leadership , and i just want you to bear that in mind in answering the next question , which is about the foundation phase . you 're probably aware that this committee has heard from various school leaders that they 're struggling in some cases to meet the ratio of staffing for the foundation phase , which potentially compromises the purpose of it in terms of physical activity . i 'm just wondering how the strategy development board is considering that at the moment . is it something that 's come on the radar for the board ? is it something you 're thinking about ? and , if so , who do you think should be responsible for pinning that down a little bit ? because this is education , not health , and— . dr frank atherton: well , look , i 've got to confess to you , i 'm not an educationist , and so the question on staffing numbers in schools is not one that i have been asked to give a deal of consideration to , and it has n't really been discussed , i do n't believe , in the context of development of the strategy . if there is a specific point around that that the committee would like to make in terms of a response into the consultation , which i presume you 'll be making , then we 'd be happy to consider that . as to healthy preschools , i do n't know , nathan may have some view on that . i 've not been closely involved with the work . we have standards and we perhaps need to think about how we tighten those standards and how we—enforce is n't the right word , but how we implement and make sure that those standards are properly implemented , because you 're absolutely right to say that habits are developed early in life . that 's in the preschool ; it 's also in the home of course , and then later in the school . so , we do need to look at all of those as settings and are there more things we can do within those settings to drive healthier behaviours—that 's exactly why we need the consultation . nathan cook: but i would say , through that scheme as well , we 've really got a really good bank of preschools that are actually doing some really great work in this area as well . so , i think the more we can understand the successes that some of those environments are having—you know , how we can roll those out and work across other settings to create that wider impact as well is going to be really important . suzy davies am: okay . thank you . what i 'm thinking about is expectations at that level will be expectations at a slightly older level , which will be contained within the foundation phase . and while you 're quite right—obviously , parents have a role in this , or families—there will be , particularly with the introduction of the new curriculum , certain expectations on schools to provide not just healthy environments but to actively work towards well-being and healthy weight in children and things . and that 's why i asked you about local leadership , because , if it fails for reasons that have nothing to do with the plan at foundation phase , it 's going to fail further up the school years as well . i think it might be something that the board might want to consider here , because at some point there 'll be an accountability question and we will want to know how 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' fits in with the new plans for the new curriculum , and whether it 's merely persuasive and influential or whether it has the weight to place some obligations on school leaders about what they do in their schools . so , this connection , i think , is quite an important one , and , if the strategy development board could consider that , i think it would be very helpful , because this does n't exist in a vacuum . dr frank atherton: well , i 'd certainly be delighted to take that back and we can look at it in terms of how we move from the consultation into the final strategy . it 's certainly a point we can try and look at . suzy davies am: because we will want to know who to ask : 'you 're the accountable person—why has something worked , or not worked ? ' we will need to know that at some point . dr frank atherton: just building on nathan 's point , some of the schools—i know it 's schools rather than the preschools , and i take your point , but some of the schools we 've been working with have absolutely brilliant models of good practice and good local leadership . i remember the minister actually at the launch , and one of the schools was represented there , and they presented—the school came and some of the children came and presented—to the whole audience about the activities that they were undertaking in their school around physical activity and on healthy eating , and it was such a model of good behaviour the question was , 'well , why not everywhere ? ' , so that probably speaks to your question . suzy davies am: okay , well , thank you for that commitment anyway . lynne neagle am: and have you had any discussions , then , with education officials around things like teacher training and cpd , because you 'll be aware the health and social care committee has made a number of recommendations in this area ? it 's crucial that we skill up the staff to develop these things in an appropriate way , is n't it ? dr frank atherton: well , we certainly discuss with education colleagues in welsh government . there 's more we need to do in terms of that , because you 're absolutely right : there 's something about building the whole of the workforce—education is really important , but elsewhere as well ; it 's about how do we really make every contact count , you know , that construct . so , everybody who 's working in the health and social care system should have a role in this ; everybody who works in education , whether it 's the old— . do we still have dinner ladies ? or teachers , you know , they have a role to play in supporting children to be as healthy as they possibly can . and , actually , i see them , chair , as a really essential part of the public health workforce . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . suzy , are you going to do your curriculum one ? suzy davies am: well , i 've bound it in together , but that final point you make about teachers being part of the answer to this , they 're already under a range of pressures : is it fair to make them accountable for whether this works or not ? or should that local leadership lie somewhere else ? i do n't expect you to pin down a person today . dr frank atherton: i would n't like to blame a teacher or performance manage them on the proportion of their children in their class who are overweight . that would clearly be nonsense , would n't it ? but they are part of the solution , and so the accountability lies further up the chain , does n't it ? the question i think we would have , and public services boards might well ask , and the local education authorities may well ask , is : how effective is any particular school at driving forwards these healthy behaviours ? suzy davies am: okay , thank you . i 'll leave some questions for hefin . lynne neagle am: hefin . hefin david am: is that all right , chair ? lynne neagle am: you 've got the floor , hefin . hefin david am: thank you , chair . you make a commitment to embedding physical activity at an early stage in primary school education . what would that look like ? dr frank atherton: just in terms of the physical activity , i have to say it 's a really important dimension and we need to move further on . we know not enough of our children are physically active and they 're not meeting the various guidelines , so it 's really important . it does n't actually have as much of an impact on weight as the dietary issue . i 'd just say that . it 's really important for all sorts of reasons . it does have an impact on healthy weight , but it has a huge impact in terms of socialisation , in terms of mental health issues , et cetera , you know . so—i 'm sorry , i 've lost track of your question . nathan cook: i 'd just say that one thing we have got in train is , obviously , sport wales , public health wales and natural resources wales—we have them working together as a collaborative at the moment to look at how their joint delivery on physical activity can be taken forward more efficiently . so , one of the things they are looking at is obviously the schools programmes they do through eco-schools , the welsh network of healthy schools and the sports programme to really think about that physical activity and how we can have better join up in terms of the programmes that we 're already delivering as well . hefin david am: with that in mind , i 'm going to confess to you , chief medical officer , i did anything in school i could to avoid physical education lessons . i hated it . i did n't feel engaged with it . yet , two weeks ago , i played for the assembly rugby team—i wanted to get that in . the school sports survey , that would suggest that we 're still not hitting those targets with children . how can we get children more engaged with physical education in ways that— ? i felt completely alienated in school . dr frank atherton: well , you 're right , and many people go through that same journey and come to physical activity later in life , and that 's great if they do that . the sad reality is that many people do n't , and we also know that there are issues around the dropping off , particularly for girls , of physical activity towards the teenage years . so , there are specific moments that we need to understand . we do have a lot of information about these kinds of things . public health wales is very good at collating the information . we do need to turn that into programmes . i mean , at the heart of it , it 's about making sports and physical activity enjoyable and attractive to people . sometimes that 's easier , i sense , for boys than for girls , but we need to tailor things to different audiences . hefin david am: yes , that 's the trick , is n't it ? it 's about finding out what children enjoy doing . that could be quite a wide and varied range of things . is that the key ? dawn bowden am: it 's not all about organised team sports . hefin david am: yes . as dawn said , it 's not just about organised team sports . there are some very individual activities you could do . dr frank atherton: absolutely , yes . and that 's where i think— . i 'm delighted that sport wales has moved beyond . it 's not just about elite sports ; it 's about getting everybody engaged and active in sports , and that partnership with public health wales that nathan talked about is really important , because we need a population approach to driving physical activity . hefin david am: so , do you think , with that in mind , we need statutory guidance for schools on physical education ? dr frank atherton: again , i 'd look to the consultation as to whether there was an appetite for any kind of guidance . it may well be that that is something that could be considered . hefin david am: okay . and finally , with regard to free school meals to all pupils in primary and secondary schools , do you think that extending that to all pupils would be beneficial in providing a more varied diet for pupils ? dr frank atherton: i do n't have a personal view on that . i think it 's the quality of the food that kids are getting , whether that comes from home or through school , and whether it 's free or whether it 's paid for . i think it 's the quality of the food that we need to focus on . the question of children being hungry at school is a really important one and needs to be addressed at a national level . i think that 's a— hefin david am: so , you think that 's more about the provision of food for those who might not have access to it than providing a varied diet . dr frank atherton: i think it 's important that children have access to food , absolutely , if that 's your question , but we also need to look at the quality of the food and what 's in that food offer . hefin david am: but you do n't necessarily think universal provision would— . dr frank atherton: i do n't have a clear view on that . i know there 's a larger debate about that . hefin david am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: i 've got some supplementaries from janet and then suzy . janet finch-saunders am: yes . i 've been around some amazing schools in my own constituency , where they 've got proper canteen facilities for pupils and really , really good produce in the meals . however , there 's probably only a third having school meals ; the rest are packed lunches . and , to be honest , i 've been very surprised and shocked at what i 've seen of the quality of the food in the packed lunches . nobody can really police , and i would n't want to see parents being policed over what goes in a packed lunch , so if there is data out there to suggest that there 's a larger percentage of parents providing packed lunched that are really not good at all , then there is some merit to be said for what hefin is— . me , personally , i 'd love to see the introduction of universal school meals . i think it 's been a very retrograde step , going backwards . would you be willing to carry out any research ? dr frank atherton: so , i mean , your point about food that 's brought in in the packed lunches is a really important one , and i 've talked to some headteachers as well about this . we could go down a route of guidance and prohibition , but that gets you into the role of nanny in chief and i do n't really see that as my role or government 's role , and i do n't think it 's effective either . do you remember— ? you must have seen on tv—i think it was in scotland ; i do n't know if it 's happened in wales—parents pushing the fish and chip packets through the school railings . we do n't need to get into that . what i have seen , though , is some really good innovative practice in schools where , for example , they reward children for bringing the healthy options . schools can give guidance to parents about what would be a healthy lunch and what sort of things might be expected to be seen in the lunch box . and you can reward children , and children do respond to rewards . so , i 've seen some of those approaches that have transformed , actually , the offer of what comes in school boxes . but i think just banning chocolate bars and crisps in the packed lunch is unlikely to be successful . janet finch-saunders am: we ca n't do that . so , my point to the question was : is n't there some merit , perhaps , about all children being equal and eating similar good-quality food in schools ? dr frank atherton: yes . that gets you back to the question about universal school meals . janet finch-saunders am: perhaps some of that £56 million sugar tax , even . who knows ? lynne neagle am: suzy . suzy davies am: yes . mine is just a short question . the draft plan commits , does n't it , to updating the healthy eating in schools regulations—the 2013 regulations ? i appreciate this is a consultation , but what is it that needs changing in those regulations at the moment , just to give us a bit of steer ? nathan cook: it 's mainly on sugar content , so , obviously , they do n't adhere to current scientific advisory committee on nutrition guidelines around sugar levels . so , what we 'd want to consider is , you know , what we need to be careful of is unintended consequences of changing that , as well , if you see a shift to more kids bringing in school packed lunches as well . so , i think we want to consider the best way of doing that and consider through the consultation how we can go about it . suzy davies am: all right . so , it 's very pertinent to janet 's question , in that way . okay , so it 's mainly about sugar , but it could be about other things as well . okay . thanks . lynne neagle am: okay . the next questions are from janet anyway ; firstly , on the clinical obesity pathway . janet finch-saunders am: the 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' plan commits to a review of the clinical obesity pathway . what are the time frames for this review , and what do you think are the basic essentials of a clinical obesity pathway for children and young people ? dr frank atherton: we do have a pathway for managing overweight , and that 's been in place since about 2010 , i believe , and we do need to bring that up to date in terms of current knowledge and experiences . we 've challenged public health wales ; we 've asked public health wales to undertake a review of that pathway , and they are going through that process now . i 'm not sure of exactly the time frame that we have given them for that . nathan cook: we were asking them to review the pathway before we launch the final strategy in october because , obviously , what we want is for that to inform what that final strategy looks like . so , we 'll be looking probably early autumn for them to report back on that . dr frank atherton: the second point of your question about what are the essential elements , i mean , they are already there ; we need to tweak them and we need to make sure that they 're properly delivered . but it 's a tiered approach , so , having access to information through schools and through communities and into families is part of the first step of that . and then , if children are overweight , it 's a question about how they 're identified . there are questions about the ability of the public to recognise large children , so there may be an issue there . but when children are running into issues around weight , what kind of interventions can be put in , either through primary care or through communities through health visitors , et cetera ? and then of course we do have—and we 've started to shine a light on this , have n't we—the very overweight children . i do n't think we have enough in the way of targeted support to be able to support those . there are programmes available , but they 're perhaps not universally provided . so , i think there 's something about looking at our whole pathway , mapping out what the current evidence now shows us is needed , and then thinking about what is our provision in wales and what do we need to do to bring that up to the level of the places that are the best . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . the draft plan recognises the importance of the first 1,000 days , but it does n't appear to include any new proposals to help parents to enable lifestyle changes . it lists existing initiatives , such as the healthy child wales programme and breastfeeding action plan . are you satisfied that the draft plan does enough to address the influence that family and parents have on children 's healthy weight behaviours , particularly in the first 1,000 days ? dr frank atherton: well , the first 1,000 days are really critically in shaping lives , as i 'm sure you 'd agree . we are absolutely open to any other suggestions that the public or this committee have as to what more we can and should do . there are a number of things , the sorts of programmes you 've mentioned , that i think could be more effective . we 're currently looking at breastfeeding because it starts before birth , actually . we know that children who are breastfed are less likely to suffer from obesity in childhood and , indeed , to go on to be obese adults . so , we do need to go further on that . we do have some programmes—healthy working wales , et cetera—that need to be improved . if there are other interventions in other areas that we need to take , then we 'd be delighted to hear what they are , but those are the ones that have jumped out so far . nathan cook: can i just say— ? one of the proposals we 're looking for is , obviously , we know that during pregnancy it 's a really critical time when we can actually look to work with mothers . we know from looking at some of the behaviour change that it 's actually a really critical point when new mothers really start thinking about their lives , wanting the best for their child and their families . so , what we are thinking about is how we could develop some kind of approaches to that going forward . but we know our healthy start scheme is also a good lever for us , just in terms of how we can look to improve that kind of dietary offer at the earliest stage as well . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . finally , we know that for some families day-to-day challenges can make it difficult for them to make healthy choices , particularly for those on lower incomes and/or maybe using food banks . could the welsh government take bolder action to better support low-income families to eat healthily ? dr frank atherton: well , you 've touched on a really important point about inequalities because overweight and obesity is not evenly distributed across our population . it absolutely is more prevalent in more socioeconomically deprived communities , and that 's something that should really concern us all . so , it gets you to questions of availability of fresh food and produce ; it gets you to questions of formulation of products and whether value brands are less healthy than more premium brands . so , it cuts across all of those issues that we talked about in terms of settings and in terms of environment earlier . there is something about the affordability of good-quality healthy food that we need to think about . we do need to think in broad terms—broader terms than just obesity , but we do need to think in broad terms—about how we create a society where families have the wherewithal to lead healthy lives , and that gets you to really important questions about the minimum wage and income poverty . there 's no doubt in my mind—i 'm a public health professional—and there 's no doubt in my mind that economic success and health success go hand in hand . so , you speak to a very deep question there . in terms of what we can do through this particular consultation , there are some things in there about providing better access , but without tackling some of those deeper determinants of health , their impact will necessarily be limited . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: just finally from me , then , you referred earlier to the importance of making every contact count , but some stakeholders have told the committee that they struggle to do that because of difficulties in availability of people to refer to . is that a situation that you recognise and what , really , can we do to improve that situation ? dr frank atherton: well , it depends what you mean as to where to refer to . so , the health system obviously needs to respond to this issue . what we 're seeing across the nhs is a gradual transformation in primary care so that primary care is no longer about going to see your gp , it 's about going to see a practice where you have a range of health professionals . would i like to see more dietetic support , for example , in that setting ? absolutely i would . i think we need to think in terms of that pathway that we were talking about earlier , about access to that kind of advice and support , which can head off people getting into problems and kids getting into problems with weight issues . so , that question of redesign of the pathway really speaks to , i think , your point about , 'well , where do people go when they have problems with their weight ? ' that 's true for adults and it 's true for children as well . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . are there any other questions from members ? no . okay . well , can i thank you both very much for your attendance ? it 's been a really productive session . we appreciate your time . you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy in due course , but thank you again . dr frank atherton: we 'll do that . thank you , chair , and thank you to the committee , because getting some input into the consultation from children 's perspectives , this would be one of the routes we would absolutely welcome . thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much . item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the welsh health specialised services committee on camhs tier 4 provision . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for health and social services also on camhs in-patient provision . paper to note 3 is a letter from the children commissioner for wales on tier 4 camhs provision . paper to note 4 is a letter from qualifications wales to the minister for education on qualifications for the new curriculum . paper to note 5 is a letter from me to the minister for education on the development of the new curriculum . paper to note 6 is a letter from me to the minister for education seeking clarification on the draft additional learning needs code . paper to note 7 is a letter from me to the minister for education seeking clarification on the response to our brexit report . paper to note 8 is a letter from the equality and human rights commission on a cumulative impact assessment briefing for committee , which has been offered . paper to note 9 is a letter from the chair of the petitions committee on a national taskforce for children ’ s mental health . paper to note 10 is a letter to the secretary of state for exiting the european union from the children ’ s commissioners for england , scotland , wales and northern ireland on the implications of brexit for children . there are a few that i 'd like to return to in private , but are members happy to note those ? thank you . okay . item 4 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? suzy davies am: yes . there 's somebody up there . lynne neagle am: thank you .

dawn bowden am asked for dr frank atherton 's ideas on community sport infrastructure of new schools , and pointed out that welsh government has ploughed a huge amount of money into the twenty-first century schools programme . at the end of speech , dawn bowden am thought they should be making sure that they have those kinds of facilities so that they become accessible to the wider public . at the same time , dawn bowden am gave advice on making a recommendation of sports infrastructure to dr frank atherton .

summarize the discussion about physical education and food provision for pupils in schools . </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from michelle brown and jack sargeant ; there are no substitutions . can i ask if members have any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . we 'll move on , then , to item 2 , which is our scrutiny of the 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' draft strategy , and i 'm very pleased to welcome dr frank atherton , the chief medical officer for wales , and nathan cook , who is the head of the healthy and active branch at welsh government . thank you , both , for attending this morning . we 're very much looking forward to hearing what you 've got to say . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions . if i can just start by asking about the fact that 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' is an all-age strategy , really , and how confident you are that it will deliver for children and young people . dr frank atherton: well , we 're very confident . i mean , it has to , quite clearly . we do need to think about the present generation , the problems faced by the current generation . we have high prevalence of overweight and obesity among adults—we know that , and we ca n't walk away from that because that 's translating into demand on health services . but we have to take a focus , a future generation 's focus , almost , on the next generation . i do n't write off the current generation , we ca n't afford to do that , but we do need to think about what can we do that would be different for the next generation so that they do n't get into the sorts of problems that we 're currently seeing with overweight and obesity . we know that the consequences of that for our young people are going to be enormous if we do n't do something and something quite soon . we know that overweight children go on to become overweight adults , unfortunately , and that brings all the consequences of multiple disease issues—diabetes is often cited—cancer risk et cetera . so , we have to focus on children , and , in fact , during the consultation , we 've been very clear that we need to engage with children and young people as well . perhaps we 'll get into that at some point , chair , but , yes , i can give you that assurance . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . what my follow-up question , really , is : can you just tell us what kind of engagement you 've had with children and young people to inform the draft strategy ? dr frank atherton: well , nathan may be able to influence some of the detail , but in broad terms , we have discussed with young people in a number of fora . in fact , i was delighted that we had a young person , evie morgan , a schoolgirl from mid wales , who came to the joint launch on the consultation . she met the minister there and gave a very good personal account of her views on obesity and overweight . we 've been visiting a number of schools during the consultation process . i 'm visiting a school , either this week or next week , at treorchy , to talk with teachers and young people there . obviously , we 're hopeful that schools and young people will contribute to the consultation as well . so , we 've had quite good input , i would say , from children and young people . there is always more we can do we and we want to hear those voices . nathan cook: i was going to say , we 've also had a session with youth ambassadors as well , and what we 've actually produced for the consultation is not just the children and young people 's version , but also a toolkit in terms of getting schools really engaged and involved in terms of the work that we want them to do to feed into this as well . so , we 've already had some really good responses from a lot of youth group and schools already . lynne neagle am: and you 've got a structured programme , have you , to roll that out ? okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on leadership , and the first questions are from siân gwenllian . sian gwenllian am: good morning . i 'll be speaking in welsh . the minister for health said yesterday , in answering a question from me on the chamber floor , that you gave him advice not to have a target in terms of reducing obesity among children . could you confirm that that 's what your advice was and tell us why you do n't think that a target is needed ? dr frank atherton: my advice was not that we do n't need a target—we may well need a target , and that 's one of the issues we need to consult on—but that the target that had been adopted in england and in scotland to halve the prevalence of obesity in children was more aspirational than deliverable , and that if we are to choose a target in wales , then we need to balance deliverability with challenge . we need a challenging environment . so , there is something about performance management , because i would be looking to not just the health system but the health and care system and to public services boards to think about how they 're delivering on this , and i think we can use targets to that . but they are one tool in the box that i would think we could use , and part of the consultation is to ask that question—'if we are to go down a route in wales of choosing a target , what might that look like ? ' sian gwenllian am: okay . so , to be clear , you 're not ruling out that maybe we would need a target . dr frank atherton: it 's certainly something that we could consider in terms of the final strategy . sian gwenllian am: and is that your opinion too ? nathan cook: yes . sian gwenllian am: okay . well , that is contrary to what i was told yesterday on the floor of the chamber by the minister , but there we go . i 'm glad to hear that you 're not ruling out having a target , because without a target , without something to aim for , how do we know that we 're getting there ? dr frank atherton: i think your point about evaluation is really important . whatever we produce at the end of this process—and we 're looking to produce a final strategy towards the autumn—we do need to have a strong evaluation . so , some metrics in there , it would seem , would be appropriate , but what those are , what the nature of those are , do we frame them as targets or ambitions—that 's the point we need to consult on . sian gwenllian am: okay . and the other point , of course , is the investment . if the government is going to be successful in terms of the aim of reducing childhood obesity , then it needs to fund and support the actions . have you made an assessment of the level of investment needed to implement this plan ? dr frank atherton: resourcing will be important . we currently do make investments in a number of areas that relate to child health generally , and , of course , obesity and overweight in particular . so , the question of resourcing is important . now , we ca n't quantify an absolute amount of resource that will be needed to deliver until we know exactly what 's going to come out of the consultation and what actions we might want to deliver to a greater degree in wales . a figure of £8 million to £10 million a year has been banded around as a broad kind of area of what we might need to invest , but that would need to be drawn from existing programmes . we need to look at existing programmes , how effective they are . can we make them more effective ? can we get better value from them ? and there may well be a case for new investment , and that 's a question , of course , that would need to be discussed with ministers when we 're producing the final strategy . nathan cook: but i think a key consideration as well is we already know there is investment across health boards in some kind of obesity-related services . so , i think what we really need to think about across wales is how we can drive greater scale , how we can look at current programmes in terms of making sure that they 're better evaluated , and how we can make sure that we 're also drawing up on the existing resources and capacity out there as well . sian gwenllian am: and does the level of investment depend on what the target is—what the goal is ? dr frank atherton: i do n't think you can necessarily just link the two . the issue of resourcing is one that 's there irrespective of whether we choose to put a target in place . sian gwenllian am: but how would we know that it 's being used effectively if there is n't something to aim for ? dr frank atherton: which brings you back to the question about evaluation . we need proper evaluation of the various programmes that we have . sian gwenllian am: yes , but without a target , how can you properly evaluate ? if you do n't know what you 're trying to do , how can you properly evaluate ? anyway , you 're open to suggestions about having a target , which is great . would you agree that government could use the revenue that 's being produced through the levy on soft drinks towards some of these efforts to— ? dr frank atherton: well , of course , there are some consequentials that are coming to the welsh government as part of the levy on sugary soft drinks . that funding , of course , is less than we had anticipated , and that reflects , actually , a success story because industry is reformulating , and so the amount of sugar in soft drinks is already starting to decrease , which is a good thing . but to your question : should we use the funding ? well , of course we should use funding . i 'm not personally in favour of hypothecation , i think i 'm more interested in the totality of resource that goes into public health programmes than into marginal resource . there are , of course , a number of initiatives that we currently fund through the general revenue . and when i think about obesity , i do n't just think about the relatively small marginal amounts of money that come in through whatever source , but i think about the totality of the £7 billion we spend in health and social care and how we can divert and channel some of that towards broad prevention initiatives in general , and towards tackling being overweight and obesity in particular . sian gwenllian am: you 're saying that it 's less than expected . could you give us any kind of figure ? dr frank atherton: i 'm sorry , could you repeat the question ? sian gwenllian am: you say that there is less money that 's come in through these consequentials from the levy , can you mention some sort of figure ? dr frank atherton: the figure that i have in mind is about £56 million that 's coming in in terms of revenue over a two-year period . but i 'd have to confirm that with the committee . what the anticipated— . when the sugar levy was first brought in , there was some modelling at uk level about what level of revenue that would bring , but it was based on the amount of sugar that was currently then in drinks and the fact that the sugar has reduced in drinks , i mean , the total amount available to the uk is less and hence our consequentials are less . nathan may have some precise figures . nathan cook: yes , i was going to say , there was a mid-year report done where the levy has raised £150 million to date since coming into force in april , and the original forecast was £520 million a year . so , i think that shows the amount of work that 's been done by industry around reformulation . sian gwenllian am: and the consequentials of that ? that is the consequential—£150 million . nathan cook: on a uk level . sian gwenllian am: yes , so what 's the welsh consequential ? lynne neagle am: fifty-six . sian gwenllian am: fifty-six ? gosh , that sounds a lot . anyway , it 's a good sum of money and you 're talking about investing £8 million to £10 million . so , obviously , you know , we can be more ambitious because there is money in that pot if that money was ring-fenced for this particular scheme . dr frank atherton: well , the resource is going to be a real issue that we need to address , and i think as nathan has said , there is funding of various initiatives currently in the system , and we need to look at that and make that as effective as possible . will there be a need for some additional resource ? there may well be , and that 's a question that we 'll have to look at in terms of the strategy when we develop it and have a discussion with ministers about the level of resourcing . lynne neagle am: can i just ask on that before siân moves on ? what assessment have you made of how that money is being spent in other uk nations ? because my understanding is that the money is being used in other uk nations to directly impact on obesity . have you given any consideration to— ? as i understand it , that money now is being dispersed around a plethora of programmes , including the transformation programme , and what i found very odd , really , was vaccination , which is surely the core business of the nhs . have you got any view on that ? dr frank atherton: i 'm not sure i understand your point , chair , in terms of the link between the consequentials from— . are you talking about the consequentials from the sugar levy or are you talking about— ? lynne neagle am: yes , because in other nations , it is being used to directly impact on initiatives to tackle obesity , whereas , we 've kind of put it here in wales into the general pot and it 's being used to fund a plethora of different things . dr frank atherton: well , that cuts to what i was talking about . my preference—it 's a personal view—is that hypothecation does n't really help us too much . i mean , what we need to look at is whether the programmes , the sorts of programmes that are being funded in england , or indeed in scotland , are working effectively , and if they are , are they being delivered here in wales ? we have looked very carefully at the plans that england and scotland have for tackling obesity and overweight , and we 've made a comparison with what we 're doing in wales , and our ambition in wales is to go further than those nations , in many ways . but i come back to the point that just linking the hypothecation of a relatively small amount of resource is likely to be less impactful than asking a question of public services boards and of the health system , indeed , about how much money , overall , are we putting into prevention . lynne neagle am: no , i recognise that , and i think we 're talking about additional resource . suzy . suzy davies am: i was just wondering whether you thought that there was a useful psychological link on the part of the public between saying , 'here 's a sugar levy ' , and 'it 's going to be used to help children and adults stay healthier . ' going into a pot , it actually makes it quite difficult to explain the purpose of the tax in the first place . so , i take your overall point , but in terms of the people who we 're trying to help in all this , actually creating a direct link might be quite helpful . dr frank atherton: you may be right . i 'm not a behavioural psychologist . we 'd have to ask— suzy davies am: neither am i. i 'm a person who eats a lot of sugar . [ laughter . ] dr frank atherton: your point 's taken . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: thanks . siân . sian gwenllian am: the last question from me , about partnership working . you 're putting an emphasis on the whole-system approach in implementing the plan , how are you going to create a system that co-ordinates action and drives change across relevant partners , avoiding a situation where it 's everyone 's role , but nobody 's responsibility ? how are you going to avoid that ? dr frank atherton: it 's a very important question , and one of the four strands in the consultation is exactly related to that , around leadership and drive nationally . i 'm not interested in producing a strategy that sits on a shelf . if you look around the world , there are plenty of obesity strategies . you may notice , by the way , that we 've chosen not to talk about an obesity strategy but a healthy weight strategy , because i think having a positive construct is really quite important to us here in wales . but leadership will be really important , and we will need some sort of structure to lead this , to provide oversight . i 'm not a great believer in creating new structures , so we do need something that will give that drive , but the leadership comes from the top down . we need political commitment to this , and that 's why i welcome the input from this committee . so , that needs to be assured . and then we need to make sure that the public sector generally is engaged in this , but it goes way beyond the public sector , of course , because we have to work with industry , and we have to work with communities , and we have to work with the public on this . so we need to think about our governance system for this and how we drive it forward . interestingly , we had quite a large discussion two days ago between health and social care , but also involving the third sector and some members of the public , around how can we drive prevention more generally . it was n't specifically on obesity , but of course obesity came up because it 's such a pressing issue . this question of governance was discussed quite extensively , and we do have governance systems , of course , in wales . we have public services boards , we have regional partnership boards , and how we can get those aligned behind this common agenda is really important . but i 'd like to see—and i know i 'm a public health professional , so i know that only maybe 10 per cent , 15 per cent , possibly 20 per cent of what makes and keeps us healthy as individuals and as communities can be driven through the health system ; but i would like the system to step up and take these kinds of issues more seriously as well . so i 'd be looking for local leadership through directors of public health and indeed through chief executives to work with their public services boards on this . so , we 'll need some sort of national oversight , absolutely , but we need local ownership and local leadership , too . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 've got some questions now from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . delivery of the plan will be led by a national implementation board that will be accountable to ministers . which minister do you believe it should be accountable to , or , given the complexity of obesity , should the board be directly accountable to the first minister ? dr frank atherton: ultimately , the first minister will be responsible for this and will want to have a strong oversight of this . it is often framed as a health issue , and the minister , vaughan gething , has a strong personal commitment to this , i know . we 've talked extensively with him and with sports and recreation colleagues about that , so there 's a link there . it does cut across all portfolios , and so this is an issue that i have discussed with cabinet , and that collective ownership is really important , and will be , because it ca n't just sit in one domain . i think what you do need to have is you do need to have a lead organisation or a lead ministry , and i would see health as—i work within health , so i 'm perhaps biased , but i would see health as leading this , but it needs broad ownership across government . janet finch-saunders am: i know my colleague siân gwenllian mentioned earlier targets and things , but i know in wales we 're not too good at collecting data . what data is currently available on childhood obesity and what metrics will be used to measure progress against the plan 's objectives ? dr frank atherton: well , of course , our main data source is the child measurement programme , which collects information on children entering school aged four or five . that 's our main source of information . if we look at that data , it shows us— . well , i 'm sure you 're familiar with the statistics , but it 'll be just under a third of children at that age who are overweight or obese— janet finch-saunders am: could i just ask—sorry to interrupt—how up to date is that ? dr frank atherton: the last survey was just last year . nathan cook: the data was published last week . dr frank atherton: yes , the lastest data was out last week . janet finch-saunders am: it is pretty up to date . dr frank atherton: so , it 's pretty up to date , and what it shows— . it 's not getting radically worse—there 's always statistical variation in these things—but it 's not getting any better . and , for the first time last year , we did look at the question not just of children who were overweight or obese , but we actually singled out the proportion who are obese , severely obese . so we have a figure for that for the first time , which is about 12 per cent , which is quite shocking , in a way . janet finch-saunders am: it is shocking . dr frank atherton: so , that 's our main source of information . does that answer your question ? janet finch-saunders am: yes , but how will any gaps in your data be addressed ? dr frank atherton: well , one of the questions that are often asked is : could we measure more on a longitudinal basis ? by that i mean in england , for example , children are measured at school entry and then again at year 11—at age 11 or 12. , that kind of age group . and so you do have a longitudinal view over time of what 's happening to children . i think that would be helpful to us in wales , and it 's one of the questions in the consultation about whether we should expand that . obviously , that would have significant resource implications , not just for the funding , but also for schools and for the system to deliver it . but it 's something that maybe would help us in terms of better understanding and better evaluation—the point that was made earlier . nathan cook: and the other data we do have is the millennium cohort study , which has been released , for 14 and 15-year-olds . that 's going to be— . we 're starting to think about how we can utilise some of that data , looking at that longitudinal picture around children as well , which will be really helpful . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . you 've answered my next question . thank you . lynne neagle am: can i just ask about the child measurement programme ? the strategy commits to looking at whether we can have a second measurement taking place in wales . can you just tell us a bit more about your thinking on that and when you would see a second measurement taking place and how you would use that data ? dr frank atherton: i touched on that just now , but personally i do think it would be helpful to have more information . it 's always the case , there 's always a trade-off between the cost of getting that information and the value of the information . so , the question of how it would be used would be really important . there is still a lot that we do n't know . we know an awful lot about obesity and being overweight and the causes of it , but we do n't really have a very clear understanding , in wales at least , of the point at which children start to become overweight . although we know that overweight children tend to go on to become overweight adults , we do n't know what proportion of them between school entry and later teenage years—what those changes are . so , it would help us to have some better understanding , which would help to direct some of our initiatives . i 'd be generally supportive of the principle . we 'll wait and see what comes out in the consultation , and it 's something that we need to give thought to , but we do have to trade off the additionality of what the information would give us with the cost of doing that , of course . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on healthy environments from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . in the draft plan , some of the measures in there suggest legislating for restricting price promotions and banning energy drinks , and that sort of thing . do you think that , if we go down that road , there 's going to be time within this assembly to introduce such legislation ? and , if not , what do you think might be the timescale for such legislation ? dr frank atherton: it may well be that there are things in wales that we might wish to legislate on , and you 've mentioned two of them , and they 're good examples . we would , obviously , need to undertake quite detailed consultation on those and , in a way , we need to mirror what 's happening in england and in scotland to some degree around the consultations they 're having on energy drinks . we also need to influence the issues that are not devolved to us and we seek to do that . as to your question of legislative time , i 'm not really in a position to answer that . what i could say is that legislation may well be one of the outcomes of the consultation . there may well be things that we wish to choose to legislate on . the timing of that will have to be subject to other pressures , and i come back to the point that legislation , of course , is one of the tools that we 've got—we need to deploy them all . dawn bowden am: sure , i understand that , that you could do other things . i know— . we 've heard from the government , on other calls for legislation , that the programme 's very tight , certainly for this term , so i was just wondering whether we might get that in , but okay . if i turn now to the planning system—and this might not be something that you have great deal of knowledge of ; i 'd just welcome your view on this , because , when we discussed with stakeholders , we talked about whether the planning system , for instance , could be used to , as an example , restrict hot food takeaways around schools and so on . would that be a measure that you would support , something like that ? dr frank atherton: i think it 's definitely something we want to look at and , of course , that question is asked in the consultation , so we would like to know people 's views on that . it 's an interesting one . i think there is a question—a really important question—about how we can use the planning system more effectively . i 've discussed with nathan on a number of occasions , with planning colleagues in welsh government and in local authorities , about the art of the possible , let 's say . there may be things that we could think about and we want to get those ideas through the consultation . the specific question around takeaways , particularly takeaways near schools , is often asked . i was very interested to see , up in the north-east , some time ago , that one of the local authorities up there did put a moratorium on the opening of new fast-food venues near to schools , or indeed in areas where levels of obesity and overweight were particularly high . i understand london is now—some london boroughs are now—experimenting with that as well . so , that gave me comfort , because maybe there are powers within local authorities that can be used more effectively . i think my view at the moment is that the jury 's kind of out on whether those are effective and how effective they 're going to be . but the fact that we have some initiatives around the uk does give us an opportunity to study that and to learn from experience perhaps and then , if it is shown to be beneficial , to think about that here in wales , yes . dawn bowden am: sure , because it will only be one of a suite of measures anyway . of itself , it would n't address the problem , but , added to other initiatives , i guess it would . can i just ask you briefly , then , about community sport infrastructure and , in particular , of new schools ? so , welsh government , as you know , has ploughed a huge amount of money into the twenty-first century schools programme . what we heard when we spoke to stakeholders recently , particularly headteachers , was that , in some of the new schools that have been built , we have n't had changing rooms and toilet facilities , for instance , built into the new buildings . so , if we 're going to try and utilise these buildings for general community activity to get kids and the wider public , actually , more active , do you think that 's something that we ought to be building in ? again , not your particular direct area of responsibility , but something that you might have an input into , is that , when we 're developing schools , we should be making sure that they have those kinds of facilities so that they become accessible to the wider public . is that something that you would be prepared to make a recommendation around ? dr frank atherton: well , it 's certainly a fascinating area and one that i think has a lot of potential . it goes— . you 're right to raise it in the context of schools , and i can understand why this committee would , but i think it goes beyond that , actually , into all developments in the public sector and how they 're developed and whether we 're building health into our environment , which perhaps is your starting point . one of the things that i was really pleased to see in terms of the public health ( wales ) act 2017 that was passed a couple of years ago was the use of health impact assessment as a tool , and we 're still working on how that will inform policy and how that will be applied in issues such as policy decisions through government , but also in more downstream issues about how we create the public infrastructure that the public can and should be using . and so i would like to see the use of health impact assessments to a much greater degree to inform those kinds of decisions . if you apply that kind of lens and you take the point , which is inherent in your question , i think , that schools are not just for kids , they 're for communities , then you would—it would lead you to a conclusion that you would perhaps design and build them in a different way . so , on a personal basis , i would certainly support your view that we should be looking to use the sports environment in schools in the same way as we use leisure centres . there are all kinds of barriers in there , and i understand all of that , and it 's not really my field , exactly as you say , but , as a matter of principle , i think it 's a good one to pursue . dawn bowden am: okay . thank you . and widening it out to other public services buildings as well . dr frank atherton: indeed . dawn bowden am: yes . okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 're going to move on now to talk about how we create healthy settings . i 've got some questions from suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you very much . yes , perhaps if we could just stay in this area of education just for a moment , i think we all agree that healthy habits acquired early on probably tend to last quite well , so i wonder if you can tell us a little bit about the healthy and sustainable preschool scheme and whether you think some timescales should be made public about what you expect the achievements from that scheme to be . but , in particular , i was struck with what you said about local leadership , and i just want you to bear that in mind in answering the next question , which is about the foundation phase . you 're probably aware that this committee has heard from various school leaders that they 're struggling in some cases to meet the ratio of staffing for the foundation phase , which potentially compromises the purpose of it in terms of physical activity . i 'm just wondering how the strategy development board is considering that at the moment . is it something that 's come on the radar for the board ? is it something you 're thinking about ? and , if so , who do you think should be responsible for pinning that down a little bit ? because this is education , not health , and— . dr frank atherton: well , look , i 've got to confess to you , i 'm not an educationist , and so the question on staffing numbers in schools is not one that i have been asked to give a deal of consideration to , and it has n't really been discussed , i do n't believe , in the context of development of the strategy . if there is a specific point around that that the committee would like to make in terms of a response into the consultation , which i presume you 'll be making , then we 'd be happy to consider that . as to healthy preschools , i do n't know , nathan may have some view on that . i 've not been closely involved with the work . we have standards and we perhaps need to think about how we tighten those standards and how we—enforce is n't the right word , but how we implement and make sure that those standards are properly implemented , because you 're absolutely right to say that habits are developed early in life . that 's in the preschool ; it 's also in the home of course , and then later in the school . so , we do need to look at all of those as settings and are there more things we can do within those settings to drive healthier behaviours—that 's exactly why we need the consultation . nathan cook: but i would say , through that scheme as well , we 've really got a really good bank of preschools that are actually doing some really great work in this area as well . so , i think the more we can understand the successes that some of those environments are having—you know , how we can roll those out and work across other settings to create that wider impact as well is going to be really important . suzy davies am: okay . thank you . what i 'm thinking about is expectations at that level will be expectations at a slightly older level , which will be contained within the foundation phase . and while you 're quite right—obviously , parents have a role in this , or families—there will be , particularly with the introduction of the new curriculum , certain expectations on schools to provide not just healthy environments but to actively work towards well-being and healthy weight in children and things . and that 's why i asked you about local leadership , because , if it fails for reasons that have nothing to do with the plan at foundation phase , it 's going to fail further up the school years as well . i think it might be something that the board might want to consider here , because at some point there 'll be an accountability question and we will want to know how 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' fits in with the new plans for the new curriculum , and whether it 's merely persuasive and influential or whether it has the weight to place some obligations on school leaders about what they do in their schools . so , this connection , i think , is quite an important one , and , if the strategy development board could consider that , i think it would be very helpful , because this does n't exist in a vacuum . dr frank atherton: well , i 'd certainly be delighted to take that back and we can look at it in terms of how we move from the consultation into the final strategy . it 's certainly a point we can try and look at . suzy davies am: because we will want to know who to ask : 'you 're the accountable person—why has something worked , or not worked ? ' we will need to know that at some point . dr frank atherton: just building on nathan 's point , some of the schools—i know it 's schools rather than the preschools , and i take your point , but some of the schools we 've been working with have absolutely brilliant models of good practice and good local leadership . i remember the minister actually at the launch , and one of the schools was represented there , and they presented—the school came and some of the children came and presented—to the whole audience about the activities that they were undertaking in their school around physical activity and on healthy eating , and it was such a model of good behaviour the question was , 'well , why not everywhere ? ' , so that probably speaks to your question . suzy davies am: okay , well , thank you for that commitment anyway . lynne neagle am: and have you had any discussions , then , with education officials around things like teacher training and cpd , because you 'll be aware the health and social care committee has made a number of recommendations in this area ? it 's crucial that we skill up the staff to develop these things in an appropriate way , is n't it ? dr frank atherton: well , we certainly discuss with education colleagues in welsh government . there 's more we need to do in terms of that , because you 're absolutely right : there 's something about building the whole of the workforce—education is really important , but elsewhere as well ; it 's about how do we really make every contact count , you know , that construct . so , everybody who 's working in the health and social care system should have a role in this ; everybody who works in education , whether it 's the old— . do we still have dinner ladies ? or teachers , you know , they have a role to play in supporting children to be as healthy as they possibly can . and , actually , i see them , chair , as a really essential part of the public health workforce . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . suzy , are you going to do your curriculum one ? suzy davies am: well , i 've bound it in together , but that final point you make about teachers being part of the answer to this , they 're already under a range of pressures : is it fair to make them accountable for whether this works or not ? or should that local leadership lie somewhere else ? i do n't expect you to pin down a person today . dr frank atherton: i would n't like to blame a teacher or performance manage them on the proportion of their children in their class who are overweight . that would clearly be nonsense , would n't it ? but they are part of the solution , and so the accountability lies further up the chain , does n't it ? the question i think we would have , and public services boards might well ask , and the local education authorities may well ask , is : how effective is any particular school at driving forwards these healthy behaviours ? suzy davies am: okay , thank you . i 'll leave some questions for hefin . lynne neagle am: hefin . hefin david am: is that all right , chair ? lynne neagle am: you 've got the floor , hefin . hefin david am: thank you , chair . you make a commitment to embedding physical activity at an early stage in primary school education . what would that look like ? dr frank atherton: just in terms of the physical activity , i have to say it 's a really important dimension and we need to move further on . we know not enough of our children are physically active and they 're not meeting the various guidelines , so it 's really important . it does n't actually have as much of an impact on weight as the dietary issue . i 'd just say that . it 's really important for all sorts of reasons . it does have an impact on healthy weight , but it has a huge impact in terms of socialisation , in terms of mental health issues , et cetera , you know . so—i 'm sorry , i 've lost track of your question . nathan cook: i 'd just say that one thing we have got in train is , obviously , sport wales , public health wales and natural resources wales—we have them working together as a collaborative at the moment to look at how their joint delivery on physical activity can be taken forward more efficiently . so , one of the things they are looking at is obviously the schools programmes they do through eco-schools , the welsh network of healthy schools and the sports programme to really think about that physical activity and how we can have better join up in terms of the programmes that we 're already delivering as well . hefin david am: with that in mind , i 'm going to confess to you , chief medical officer , i did anything in school i could to avoid physical education lessons . i hated it . i did n't feel engaged with it . yet , two weeks ago , i played for the assembly rugby team—i wanted to get that in . the school sports survey , that would suggest that we 're still not hitting those targets with children . how can we get children more engaged with physical education in ways that— ? i felt completely alienated in school . dr frank atherton: well , you 're right , and many people go through that same journey and come to physical activity later in life , and that 's great if they do that . the sad reality is that many people do n't , and we also know that there are issues around the dropping off , particularly for girls , of physical activity towards the teenage years . so , there are specific moments that we need to understand . we do have a lot of information about these kinds of things . public health wales is very good at collating the information . we do need to turn that into programmes . i mean , at the heart of it , it 's about making sports and physical activity enjoyable and attractive to people . sometimes that 's easier , i sense , for boys than for girls , but we need to tailor things to different audiences . hefin david am: yes , that 's the trick , is n't it ? it 's about finding out what children enjoy doing . that could be quite a wide and varied range of things . is that the key ? dawn bowden am: it 's not all about organised team sports . hefin david am: yes . as dawn said , it 's not just about organised team sports . there are some very individual activities you could do . dr frank atherton: absolutely , yes . and that 's where i think— . i 'm delighted that sport wales has moved beyond . it 's not just about elite sports ; it 's about getting everybody engaged and active in sports , and that partnership with public health wales that nathan talked about is really important , because we need a population approach to driving physical activity . hefin david am: so , do you think , with that in mind , we need statutory guidance for schools on physical education ? dr frank atherton: again , i 'd look to the consultation as to whether there was an appetite for any kind of guidance . it may well be that that is something that could be considered . hefin david am: okay . and finally , with regard to free school meals to all pupils in primary and secondary schools , do you think that extending that to all pupils would be beneficial in providing a more varied diet for pupils ? dr frank atherton: i do n't have a personal view on that . i think it 's the quality of the food that kids are getting , whether that comes from home or through school , and whether it 's free or whether it 's paid for . i think it 's the quality of the food that we need to focus on . the question of children being hungry at school is a really important one and needs to be addressed at a national level . i think that 's a— hefin david am: so , you think that 's more about the provision of food for those who might not have access to it than providing a varied diet . dr frank atherton: i think it 's important that children have access to food , absolutely , if that 's your question , but we also need to look at the quality of the food and what 's in that food offer . hefin david am: but you do n't necessarily think universal provision would— . dr frank atherton: i do n't have a clear view on that . i know there 's a larger debate about that . hefin david am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: i 've got some supplementaries from janet and then suzy . janet finch-saunders am: yes . i 've been around some amazing schools in my own constituency , where they 've got proper canteen facilities for pupils and really , really good produce in the meals . however , there 's probably only a third having school meals ; the rest are packed lunches . and , to be honest , i 've been very surprised and shocked at what i 've seen of the quality of the food in the packed lunches . nobody can really police , and i would n't want to see parents being policed over what goes in a packed lunch , so if there is data out there to suggest that there 's a larger percentage of parents providing packed lunched that are really not good at all , then there is some merit to be said for what hefin is— . me , personally , i 'd love to see the introduction of universal school meals . i think it 's been a very retrograde step , going backwards . would you be willing to carry out any research ? dr frank atherton: so , i mean , your point about food that 's brought in in the packed lunches is a really important one , and i 've talked to some headteachers as well about this . we could go down a route of guidance and prohibition , but that gets you into the role of nanny in chief and i do n't really see that as my role or government 's role , and i do n't think it 's effective either . do you remember— ? you must have seen on tv—i think it was in scotland ; i do n't know if it 's happened in wales—parents pushing the fish and chip packets through the school railings . we do n't need to get into that . what i have seen , though , is some really good innovative practice in schools where , for example , they reward children for bringing the healthy options . schools can give guidance to parents about what would be a healthy lunch and what sort of things might be expected to be seen in the lunch box . and you can reward children , and children do respond to rewards . so , i 've seen some of those approaches that have transformed , actually , the offer of what comes in school boxes . but i think just banning chocolate bars and crisps in the packed lunch is unlikely to be successful . janet finch-saunders am: we ca n't do that . so , my point to the question was : is n't there some merit , perhaps , about all children being equal and eating similar good-quality food in schools ? dr frank atherton: yes . that gets you back to the question about universal school meals . janet finch-saunders am: perhaps some of that £56 million sugar tax , even . who knows ? lynne neagle am: suzy . suzy davies am: yes . mine is just a short question . the draft plan commits , does n't it , to updating the healthy eating in schools regulations—the 2013 regulations ? i appreciate this is a consultation , but what is it that needs changing in those regulations at the moment , just to give us a bit of steer ? nathan cook: it 's mainly on sugar content , so , obviously , they do n't adhere to current scientific advisory committee on nutrition guidelines around sugar levels . so , what we 'd want to consider is , you know , what we need to be careful of is unintended consequences of changing that , as well , if you see a shift to more kids bringing in school packed lunches as well . so , i think we want to consider the best way of doing that and consider through the consultation how we can go about it . suzy davies am: all right . so , it 's very pertinent to janet 's question , in that way . okay , so it 's mainly about sugar , but it could be about other things as well . okay . thanks . lynne neagle am: okay . the next questions are from janet anyway ; firstly , on the clinical obesity pathway . janet finch-saunders am: the 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' plan commits to a review of the clinical obesity pathway . what are the time frames for this review , and what do you think are the basic essentials of a clinical obesity pathway for children and young people ? dr frank atherton: we do have a pathway for managing overweight , and that 's been in place since about 2010 , i believe , and we do need to bring that up to date in terms of current knowledge and experiences . we 've challenged public health wales ; we 've asked public health wales to undertake a review of that pathway , and they are going through that process now . i 'm not sure of exactly the time frame that we have given them for that . nathan cook: we were asking them to review the pathway before we launch the final strategy in october because , obviously , what we want is for that to inform what that final strategy looks like . so , we 'll be looking probably early autumn for them to report back on that . dr frank atherton: the second point of your question about what are the essential elements , i mean , they are already there ; we need to tweak them and we need to make sure that they 're properly delivered . but it 's a tiered approach , so , having access to information through schools and through communities and into families is part of the first step of that . and then , if children are overweight , it 's a question about how they 're identified . there are questions about the ability of the public to recognise large children , so there may be an issue there . but when children are running into issues around weight , what kind of interventions can be put in , either through primary care or through communities through health visitors , et cetera ? and then of course we do have—and we 've started to shine a light on this , have n't we—the very overweight children . i do n't think we have enough in the way of targeted support to be able to support those . there are programmes available , but they 're perhaps not universally provided . so , i think there 's something about looking at our whole pathway , mapping out what the current evidence now shows us is needed , and then thinking about what is our provision in wales and what do we need to do to bring that up to the level of the places that are the best . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . the draft plan recognises the importance of the first 1,000 days , but it does n't appear to include any new proposals to help parents to enable lifestyle changes . it lists existing initiatives , such as the healthy child wales programme and breastfeeding action plan . are you satisfied that the draft plan does enough to address the influence that family and parents have on children 's healthy weight behaviours , particularly in the first 1,000 days ? dr frank atherton: well , the first 1,000 days are really critically in shaping lives , as i 'm sure you 'd agree . we are absolutely open to any other suggestions that the public or this committee have as to what more we can and should do . there are a number of things , the sorts of programmes you 've mentioned , that i think could be more effective . we 're currently looking at breastfeeding because it starts before birth , actually . we know that children who are breastfed are less likely to suffer from obesity in childhood and , indeed , to go on to be obese adults . so , we do need to go further on that . we do have some programmes—healthy working wales , et cetera—that need to be improved . if there are other interventions in other areas that we need to take , then we 'd be delighted to hear what they are , but those are the ones that have jumped out so far . nathan cook: can i just say— ? one of the proposals we 're looking for is , obviously , we know that during pregnancy it 's a really critical time when we can actually look to work with mothers . we know from looking at some of the behaviour change that it 's actually a really critical point when new mothers really start thinking about their lives , wanting the best for their child and their families . so , what we are thinking about is how we could develop some kind of approaches to that going forward . but we know our healthy start scheme is also a good lever for us , just in terms of how we can look to improve that kind of dietary offer at the earliest stage as well . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . finally , we know that for some families day-to-day challenges can make it difficult for them to make healthy choices , particularly for those on lower incomes and/or maybe using food banks . could the welsh government take bolder action to better support low-income families to eat healthily ? dr frank atherton: well , you 've touched on a really important point about inequalities because overweight and obesity is not evenly distributed across our population . it absolutely is more prevalent in more socioeconomically deprived communities , and that 's something that should really concern us all . so , it gets you to questions of availability of fresh food and produce ; it gets you to questions of formulation of products and whether value brands are less healthy than more premium brands . so , it cuts across all of those issues that we talked about in terms of settings and in terms of environment earlier . there is something about the affordability of good-quality healthy food that we need to think about . we do need to think in broad terms—broader terms than just obesity , but we do need to think in broad terms—about how we create a society where families have the wherewithal to lead healthy lives , and that gets you to really important questions about the minimum wage and income poverty . there 's no doubt in my mind—i 'm a public health professional—and there 's no doubt in my mind that economic success and health success go hand in hand . so , you speak to a very deep question there . in terms of what we can do through this particular consultation , there are some things in there about providing better access , but without tackling some of those deeper determinants of health , their impact will necessarily be limited . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: just finally from me , then , you referred earlier to the importance of making every contact count , but some stakeholders have told the committee that they struggle to do that because of difficulties in availability of people to refer to . is that a situation that you recognise and what , really , can we do to improve that situation ? dr frank atherton: well , it depends what you mean as to where to refer to . so , the health system obviously needs to respond to this issue . what we 're seeing across the nhs is a gradual transformation in primary care so that primary care is no longer about going to see your gp , it 's about going to see a practice where you have a range of health professionals . would i like to see more dietetic support , for example , in that setting ? absolutely i would . i think we need to think in terms of that pathway that we were talking about earlier , about access to that kind of advice and support , which can head off people getting into problems and kids getting into problems with weight issues . so , that question of redesign of the pathway really speaks to , i think , your point about , 'well , where do people go when they have problems with their weight ? ' that 's true for adults and it 's true for children as well . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . are there any other questions from members ? no . okay . well , can i thank you both very much for your attendance ? it 's been a really productive session . we appreciate your time . you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy in due course , but thank you again . dr frank atherton: we 'll do that . thank you , chair , and thank you to the committee , because getting some input into the consultation from children 's perspectives , this would be one of the routes we would absolutely welcome . thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much . item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the welsh health specialised services committee on camhs tier 4 provision . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for health and social services also on camhs in-patient provision . paper to note 3 is a letter from the children commissioner for wales on tier 4 camhs provision . paper to note 4 is a letter from qualifications wales to the minister for education on qualifications for the new curriculum . paper to note 5 is a letter from me to the minister for education on the development of the new curriculum . paper to note 6 is a letter from me to the minister for education seeking clarification on the draft additional learning needs code . paper to note 7 is a letter from me to the minister for education seeking clarification on the response to our brexit report . paper to note 8 is a letter from the equality and human rights commission on a cumulative impact assessment briefing for committee , which has been offered . paper to note 9 is a letter from the chair of the petitions committee on a national taskforce for children ’ s mental health . paper to note 10 is a letter to the secretary of state for exiting the european union from the children ’ s commissioners for england , scotland , wales and northern ireland on the implications of brexit for children . there are a few that i 'd like to return to in private , but are members happy to note those ? thank you . okay . item 4 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? suzy davies am: yes . there 's somebody up there . lynne neagle am: thank you .

dr frank atherton first gave a look at a primary school education embedded with physical activity at an early stage and assures its benefits not only on healthy benefits but also on socialization and mental issues . then dr frank atherton delivered sparkles on making pupils more engaged with physical education , which was tailoring things to different audiences . when it came to school meals , dr frank atherton did not gave personal views because things related still needed more consultations and surveys .

why did dr frank atherton make a commitment to embedding physical activity at an early stage in primary school education ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from michelle brown and jack sargeant ; there are no substitutions . can i ask if members have any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . we 'll move on , then , to item 2 , which is our scrutiny of the 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' draft strategy , and i 'm very pleased to welcome dr frank atherton , the chief medical officer for wales , and nathan cook , who is the head of the healthy and active branch at welsh government . thank you , both , for attending this morning . we 're very much looking forward to hearing what you 've got to say . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions . if i can just start by asking about the fact that 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' is an all-age strategy , really , and how confident you are that it will deliver for children and young people . dr frank atherton: well , we 're very confident . i mean , it has to , quite clearly . we do need to think about the present generation , the problems faced by the current generation . we have high prevalence of overweight and obesity among adults—we know that , and we ca n't walk away from that because that 's translating into demand on health services . but we have to take a focus , a future generation 's focus , almost , on the next generation . i do n't write off the current generation , we ca n't afford to do that , but we do need to think about what can we do that would be different for the next generation so that they do n't get into the sorts of problems that we 're currently seeing with overweight and obesity . we know that the consequences of that for our young people are going to be enormous if we do n't do something and something quite soon . we know that overweight children go on to become overweight adults , unfortunately , and that brings all the consequences of multiple disease issues—diabetes is often cited—cancer risk et cetera . so , we have to focus on children , and , in fact , during the consultation , we 've been very clear that we need to engage with children and young people as well . perhaps we 'll get into that at some point , chair , but , yes , i can give you that assurance . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . what my follow-up question , really , is : can you just tell us what kind of engagement you 've had with children and young people to inform the draft strategy ? dr frank atherton: well , nathan may be able to influence some of the detail , but in broad terms , we have discussed with young people in a number of fora . in fact , i was delighted that we had a young person , evie morgan , a schoolgirl from mid wales , who came to the joint launch on the consultation . she met the minister there and gave a very good personal account of her views on obesity and overweight . we 've been visiting a number of schools during the consultation process . i 'm visiting a school , either this week or next week , at treorchy , to talk with teachers and young people there . obviously , we 're hopeful that schools and young people will contribute to the consultation as well . so , we 've had quite good input , i would say , from children and young people . there is always more we can do we and we want to hear those voices . nathan cook: i was going to say , we 've also had a session with youth ambassadors as well , and what we 've actually produced for the consultation is not just the children and young people 's version , but also a toolkit in terms of getting schools really engaged and involved in terms of the work that we want them to do to feed into this as well . so , we 've already had some really good responses from a lot of youth group and schools already . lynne neagle am: and you 've got a structured programme , have you , to roll that out ? okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on leadership , and the first questions are from siân gwenllian . sian gwenllian am: good morning . i 'll be speaking in welsh . the minister for health said yesterday , in answering a question from me on the chamber floor , that you gave him advice not to have a target in terms of reducing obesity among children . could you confirm that that 's what your advice was and tell us why you do n't think that a target is needed ? dr frank atherton: my advice was not that we do n't need a target—we may well need a target , and that 's one of the issues we need to consult on—but that the target that had been adopted in england and in scotland to halve the prevalence of obesity in children was more aspirational than deliverable , and that if we are to choose a target in wales , then we need to balance deliverability with challenge . we need a challenging environment . so , there is something about performance management , because i would be looking to not just the health system but the health and care system and to public services boards to think about how they 're delivering on this , and i think we can use targets to that . but they are one tool in the box that i would think we could use , and part of the consultation is to ask that question—'if we are to go down a route in wales of choosing a target , what might that look like ? ' sian gwenllian am: okay . so , to be clear , you 're not ruling out that maybe we would need a target . dr frank atherton: it 's certainly something that we could consider in terms of the final strategy . sian gwenllian am: and is that your opinion too ? nathan cook: yes . sian gwenllian am: okay . well , that is contrary to what i was told yesterday on the floor of the chamber by the minister , but there we go . i 'm glad to hear that you 're not ruling out having a target , because without a target , without something to aim for , how do we know that we 're getting there ? dr frank atherton: i think your point about evaluation is really important . whatever we produce at the end of this process—and we 're looking to produce a final strategy towards the autumn—we do need to have a strong evaluation . so , some metrics in there , it would seem , would be appropriate , but what those are , what the nature of those are , do we frame them as targets or ambitions—that 's the point we need to consult on . sian gwenllian am: okay . and the other point , of course , is the investment . if the government is going to be successful in terms of the aim of reducing childhood obesity , then it needs to fund and support the actions . have you made an assessment of the level of investment needed to implement this plan ? dr frank atherton: resourcing will be important . we currently do make investments in a number of areas that relate to child health generally , and , of course , obesity and overweight in particular . so , the question of resourcing is important . now , we ca n't quantify an absolute amount of resource that will be needed to deliver until we know exactly what 's going to come out of the consultation and what actions we might want to deliver to a greater degree in wales . a figure of £8 million to £10 million a year has been banded around as a broad kind of area of what we might need to invest , but that would need to be drawn from existing programmes . we need to look at existing programmes , how effective they are . can we make them more effective ? can we get better value from them ? and there may well be a case for new investment , and that 's a question , of course , that would need to be discussed with ministers when we 're producing the final strategy . nathan cook: but i think a key consideration as well is we already know there is investment across health boards in some kind of obesity-related services . so , i think what we really need to think about across wales is how we can drive greater scale , how we can look at current programmes in terms of making sure that they 're better evaluated , and how we can make sure that we 're also drawing up on the existing resources and capacity out there as well . sian gwenllian am: and does the level of investment depend on what the target is—what the goal is ? dr frank atherton: i do n't think you can necessarily just link the two . the issue of resourcing is one that 's there irrespective of whether we choose to put a target in place . sian gwenllian am: but how would we know that it 's being used effectively if there is n't something to aim for ? dr frank atherton: which brings you back to the question about evaluation . we need proper evaluation of the various programmes that we have . sian gwenllian am: yes , but without a target , how can you properly evaluate ? if you do n't know what you 're trying to do , how can you properly evaluate ? anyway , you 're open to suggestions about having a target , which is great . would you agree that government could use the revenue that 's being produced through the levy on soft drinks towards some of these efforts to— ? dr frank atherton: well , of course , there are some consequentials that are coming to the welsh government as part of the levy on sugary soft drinks . that funding , of course , is less than we had anticipated , and that reflects , actually , a success story because industry is reformulating , and so the amount of sugar in soft drinks is already starting to decrease , which is a good thing . but to your question : should we use the funding ? well , of course we should use funding . i 'm not personally in favour of hypothecation , i think i 'm more interested in the totality of resource that goes into public health programmes than into marginal resource . there are , of course , a number of initiatives that we currently fund through the general revenue . and when i think about obesity , i do n't just think about the relatively small marginal amounts of money that come in through whatever source , but i think about the totality of the £7 billion we spend in health and social care and how we can divert and channel some of that towards broad prevention initiatives in general , and towards tackling being overweight and obesity in particular . sian gwenllian am: you 're saying that it 's less than expected . could you give us any kind of figure ? dr frank atherton: i 'm sorry , could you repeat the question ? sian gwenllian am: you say that there is less money that 's come in through these consequentials from the levy , can you mention some sort of figure ? dr frank atherton: the figure that i have in mind is about £56 million that 's coming in in terms of revenue over a two-year period . but i 'd have to confirm that with the committee . what the anticipated— . when the sugar levy was first brought in , there was some modelling at uk level about what level of revenue that would bring , but it was based on the amount of sugar that was currently then in drinks and the fact that the sugar has reduced in drinks , i mean , the total amount available to the uk is less and hence our consequentials are less . nathan may have some precise figures . nathan cook: yes , i was going to say , there was a mid-year report done where the levy has raised £150 million to date since coming into force in april , and the original forecast was £520 million a year . so , i think that shows the amount of work that 's been done by industry around reformulation . sian gwenllian am: and the consequentials of that ? that is the consequential—£150 million . nathan cook: on a uk level . sian gwenllian am: yes , so what 's the welsh consequential ? lynne neagle am: fifty-six . sian gwenllian am: fifty-six ? gosh , that sounds a lot . anyway , it 's a good sum of money and you 're talking about investing £8 million to £10 million . so , obviously , you know , we can be more ambitious because there is money in that pot if that money was ring-fenced for this particular scheme . dr frank atherton: well , the resource is going to be a real issue that we need to address , and i think as nathan has said , there is funding of various initiatives currently in the system , and we need to look at that and make that as effective as possible . will there be a need for some additional resource ? there may well be , and that 's a question that we 'll have to look at in terms of the strategy when we develop it and have a discussion with ministers about the level of resourcing . lynne neagle am: can i just ask on that before siân moves on ? what assessment have you made of how that money is being spent in other uk nations ? because my understanding is that the money is being used in other uk nations to directly impact on obesity . have you given any consideration to— ? as i understand it , that money now is being dispersed around a plethora of programmes , including the transformation programme , and what i found very odd , really , was vaccination , which is surely the core business of the nhs . have you got any view on that ? dr frank atherton: i 'm not sure i understand your point , chair , in terms of the link between the consequentials from— . are you talking about the consequentials from the sugar levy or are you talking about— ? lynne neagle am: yes , because in other nations , it is being used to directly impact on initiatives to tackle obesity , whereas , we 've kind of put it here in wales into the general pot and it 's being used to fund a plethora of different things . dr frank atherton: well , that cuts to what i was talking about . my preference—it 's a personal view—is that hypothecation does n't really help us too much . i mean , what we need to look at is whether the programmes , the sorts of programmes that are being funded in england , or indeed in scotland , are working effectively , and if they are , are they being delivered here in wales ? we have looked very carefully at the plans that england and scotland have for tackling obesity and overweight , and we 've made a comparison with what we 're doing in wales , and our ambition in wales is to go further than those nations , in many ways . but i come back to the point that just linking the hypothecation of a relatively small amount of resource is likely to be less impactful than asking a question of public services boards and of the health system , indeed , about how much money , overall , are we putting into prevention . lynne neagle am: no , i recognise that , and i think we 're talking about additional resource . suzy . suzy davies am: i was just wondering whether you thought that there was a useful psychological link on the part of the public between saying , 'here 's a sugar levy ' , and 'it 's going to be used to help children and adults stay healthier . ' going into a pot , it actually makes it quite difficult to explain the purpose of the tax in the first place . so , i take your overall point , but in terms of the people who we 're trying to help in all this , actually creating a direct link might be quite helpful . dr frank atherton: you may be right . i 'm not a behavioural psychologist . we 'd have to ask— suzy davies am: neither am i. i 'm a person who eats a lot of sugar . [ laughter . ] dr frank atherton: your point 's taken . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: thanks . siân . sian gwenllian am: the last question from me , about partnership working . you 're putting an emphasis on the whole-system approach in implementing the plan , how are you going to create a system that co-ordinates action and drives change across relevant partners , avoiding a situation where it 's everyone 's role , but nobody 's responsibility ? how are you going to avoid that ? dr frank atherton: it 's a very important question , and one of the four strands in the consultation is exactly related to that , around leadership and drive nationally . i 'm not interested in producing a strategy that sits on a shelf . if you look around the world , there are plenty of obesity strategies . you may notice , by the way , that we 've chosen not to talk about an obesity strategy but a healthy weight strategy , because i think having a positive construct is really quite important to us here in wales . but leadership will be really important , and we will need some sort of structure to lead this , to provide oversight . i 'm not a great believer in creating new structures , so we do need something that will give that drive , but the leadership comes from the top down . we need political commitment to this , and that 's why i welcome the input from this committee . so , that needs to be assured . and then we need to make sure that the public sector generally is engaged in this , but it goes way beyond the public sector , of course , because we have to work with industry , and we have to work with communities , and we have to work with the public on this . so we need to think about our governance system for this and how we drive it forward . interestingly , we had quite a large discussion two days ago between health and social care , but also involving the third sector and some members of the public , around how can we drive prevention more generally . it was n't specifically on obesity , but of course obesity came up because it 's such a pressing issue . this question of governance was discussed quite extensively , and we do have governance systems , of course , in wales . we have public services boards , we have regional partnership boards , and how we can get those aligned behind this common agenda is really important . but i 'd like to see—and i know i 'm a public health professional , so i know that only maybe 10 per cent , 15 per cent , possibly 20 per cent of what makes and keeps us healthy as individuals and as communities can be driven through the health system ; but i would like the system to step up and take these kinds of issues more seriously as well . so i 'd be looking for local leadership through directors of public health and indeed through chief executives to work with their public services boards on this . so , we 'll need some sort of national oversight , absolutely , but we need local ownership and local leadership , too . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 've got some questions now from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . delivery of the plan will be led by a national implementation board that will be accountable to ministers . which minister do you believe it should be accountable to , or , given the complexity of obesity , should the board be directly accountable to the first minister ? dr frank atherton: ultimately , the first minister will be responsible for this and will want to have a strong oversight of this . it is often framed as a health issue , and the minister , vaughan gething , has a strong personal commitment to this , i know . we 've talked extensively with him and with sports and recreation colleagues about that , so there 's a link there . it does cut across all portfolios , and so this is an issue that i have discussed with cabinet , and that collective ownership is really important , and will be , because it ca n't just sit in one domain . i think what you do need to have is you do need to have a lead organisation or a lead ministry , and i would see health as—i work within health , so i 'm perhaps biased , but i would see health as leading this , but it needs broad ownership across government . janet finch-saunders am: i know my colleague siân gwenllian mentioned earlier targets and things , but i know in wales we 're not too good at collecting data . what data is currently available on childhood obesity and what metrics will be used to measure progress against the plan 's objectives ? dr frank atherton: well , of course , our main data source is the child measurement programme , which collects information on children entering school aged four or five . that 's our main source of information . if we look at that data , it shows us— . well , i 'm sure you 're familiar with the statistics , but it 'll be just under a third of children at that age who are overweight or obese— janet finch-saunders am: could i just ask—sorry to interrupt—how up to date is that ? dr frank atherton: the last survey was just last year . nathan cook: the data was published last week . dr frank atherton: yes , the lastest data was out last week . janet finch-saunders am: it is pretty up to date . dr frank atherton: so , it 's pretty up to date , and what it shows— . it 's not getting radically worse—there 's always statistical variation in these things—but it 's not getting any better . and , for the first time last year , we did look at the question not just of children who were overweight or obese , but we actually singled out the proportion who are obese , severely obese . so we have a figure for that for the first time , which is about 12 per cent , which is quite shocking , in a way . janet finch-saunders am: it is shocking . dr frank atherton: so , that 's our main source of information . does that answer your question ? janet finch-saunders am: yes , but how will any gaps in your data be addressed ? dr frank atherton: well , one of the questions that are often asked is : could we measure more on a longitudinal basis ? by that i mean in england , for example , children are measured at school entry and then again at year 11—at age 11 or 12. , that kind of age group . and so you do have a longitudinal view over time of what 's happening to children . i think that would be helpful to us in wales , and it 's one of the questions in the consultation about whether we should expand that . obviously , that would have significant resource implications , not just for the funding , but also for schools and for the system to deliver it . but it 's something that maybe would help us in terms of better understanding and better evaluation—the point that was made earlier . nathan cook: and the other data we do have is the millennium cohort study , which has been released , for 14 and 15-year-olds . that 's going to be— . we 're starting to think about how we can utilise some of that data , looking at that longitudinal picture around children as well , which will be really helpful . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . you 've answered my next question . thank you . lynne neagle am: can i just ask about the child measurement programme ? the strategy commits to looking at whether we can have a second measurement taking place in wales . can you just tell us a bit more about your thinking on that and when you would see a second measurement taking place and how you would use that data ? dr frank atherton: i touched on that just now , but personally i do think it would be helpful to have more information . it 's always the case , there 's always a trade-off between the cost of getting that information and the value of the information . so , the question of how it would be used would be really important . there is still a lot that we do n't know . we know an awful lot about obesity and being overweight and the causes of it , but we do n't really have a very clear understanding , in wales at least , of the point at which children start to become overweight . although we know that overweight children tend to go on to become overweight adults , we do n't know what proportion of them between school entry and later teenage years—what those changes are . so , it would help us to have some better understanding , which would help to direct some of our initiatives . i 'd be generally supportive of the principle . we 'll wait and see what comes out in the consultation , and it 's something that we need to give thought to , but we do have to trade off the additionality of what the information would give us with the cost of doing that , of course . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on healthy environments from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . in the draft plan , some of the measures in there suggest legislating for restricting price promotions and banning energy drinks , and that sort of thing . do you think that , if we go down that road , there 's going to be time within this assembly to introduce such legislation ? and , if not , what do you think might be the timescale for such legislation ? dr frank atherton: it may well be that there are things in wales that we might wish to legislate on , and you 've mentioned two of them , and they 're good examples . we would , obviously , need to undertake quite detailed consultation on those and , in a way , we need to mirror what 's happening in england and in scotland to some degree around the consultations they 're having on energy drinks . we also need to influence the issues that are not devolved to us and we seek to do that . as to your question of legislative time , i 'm not really in a position to answer that . what i could say is that legislation may well be one of the outcomes of the consultation . there may well be things that we wish to choose to legislate on . the timing of that will have to be subject to other pressures , and i come back to the point that legislation , of course , is one of the tools that we 've got—we need to deploy them all . dawn bowden am: sure , i understand that , that you could do other things . i know— . we 've heard from the government , on other calls for legislation , that the programme 's very tight , certainly for this term , so i was just wondering whether we might get that in , but okay . if i turn now to the planning system—and this might not be something that you have great deal of knowledge of ; i 'd just welcome your view on this , because , when we discussed with stakeholders , we talked about whether the planning system , for instance , could be used to , as an example , restrict hot food takeaways around schools and so on . would that be a measure that you would support , something like that ? dr frank atherton: i think it 's definitely something we want to look at and , of course , that question is asked in the consultation , so we would like to know people 's views on that . it 's an interesting one . i think there is a question—a really important question—about how we can use the planning system more effectively . i 've discussed with nathan on a number of occasions , with planning colleagues in welsh government and in local authorities , about the art of the possible , let 's say . there may be things that we could think about and we want to get those ideas through the consultation . the specific question around takeaways , particularly takeaways near schools , is often asked . i was very interested to see , up in the north-east , some time ago , that one of the local authorities up there did put a moratorium on the opening of new fast-food venues near to schools , or indeed in areas where levels of obesity and overweight were particularly high . i understand london is now—some london boroughs are now—experimenting with that as well . so , that gave me comfort , because maybe there are powers within local authorities that can be used more effectively . i think my view at the moment is that the jury 's kind of out on whether those are effective and how effective they 're going to be . but the fact that we have some initiatives around the uk does give us an opportunity to study that and to learn from experience perhaps and then , if it is shown to be beneficial , to think about that here in wales , yes . dawn bowden am: sure , because it will only be one of a suite of measures anyway . of itself , it would n't address the problem , but , added to other initiatives , i guess it would . can i just ask you briefly , then , about community sport infrastructure and , in particular , of new schools ? so , welsh government , as you know , has ploughed a huge amount of money into the twenty-first century schools programme . what we heard when we spoke to stakeholders recently , particularly headteachers , was that , in some of the new schools that have been built , we have n't had changing rooms and toilet facilities , for instance , built into the new buildings . so , if we 're going to try and utilise these buildings for general community activity to get kids and the wider public , actually , more active , do you think that 's something that we ought to be building in ? again , not your particular direct area of responsibility , but something that you might have an input into , is that , when we 're developing schools , we should be making sure that they have those kinds of facilities so that they become accessible to the wider public . is that something that you would be prepared to make a recommendation around ? dr frank atherton: well , it 's certainly a fascinating area and one that i think has a lot of potential . it goes— . you 're right to raise it in the context of schools , and i can understand why this committee would , but i think it goes beyond that , actually , into all developments in the public sector and how they 're developed and whether we 're building health into our environment , which perhaps is your starting point . one of the things that i was really pleased to see in terms of the public health ( wales ) act 2017 that was passed a couple of years ago was the use of health impact assessment as a tool , and we 're still working on how that will inform policy and how that will be applied in issues such as policy decisions through government , but also in more downstream issues about how we create the public infrastructure that the public can and should be using . and so i would like to see the use of health impact assessments to a much greater degree to inform those kinds of decisions . if you apply that kind of lens and you take the point , which is inherent in your question , i think , that schools are not just for kids , they 're for communities , then you would—it would lead you to a conclusion that you would perhaps design and build them in a different way . so , on a personal basis , i would certainly support your view that we should be looking to use the sports environment in schools in the same way as we use leisure centres . there are all kinds of barriers in there , and i understand all of that , and it 's not really my field , exactly as you say , but , as a matter of principle , i think it 's a good one to pursue . dawn bowden am: okay . thank you . and widening it out to other public services buildings as well . dr frank atherton: indeed . dawn bowden am: yes . okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 're going to move on now to talk about how we create healthy settings . i 've got some questions from suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you very much . yes , perhaps if we could just stay in this area of education just for a moment , i think we all agree that healthy habits acquired early on probably tend to last quite well , so i wonder if you can tell us a little bit about the healthy and sustainable preschool scheme and whether you think some timescales should be made public about what you expect the achievements from that scheme to be . but , in particular , i was struck with what you said about local leadership , and i just want you to bear that in mind in answering the next question , which is about the foundation phase . you 're probably aware that this committee has heard from various school leaders that they 're struggling in some cases to meet the ratio of staffing for the foundation phase , which potentially compromises the purpose of it in terms of physical activity . i 'm just wondering how the strategy development board is considering that at the moment . is it something that 's come on the radar for the board ? is it something you 're thinking about ? and , if so , who do you think should be responsible for pinning that down a little bit ? because this is education , not health , and— . dr frank atherton: well , look , i 've got to confess to you , i 'm not an educationist , and so the question on staffing numbers in schools is not one that i have been asked to give a deal of consideration to , and it has n't really been discussed , i do n't believe , in the context of development of the strategy . if there is a specific point around that that the committee would like to make in terms of a response into the consultation , which i presume you 'll be making , then we 'd be happy to consider that . as to healthy preschools , i do n't know , nathan may have some view on that . i 've not been closely involved with the work . we have standards and we perhaps need to think about how we tighten those standards and how we—enforce is n't the right word , but how we implement and make sure that those standards are properly implemented , because you 're absolutely right to say that habits are developed early in life . that 's in the preschool ; it 's also in the home of course , and then later in the school . so , we do need to look at all of those as settings and are there more things we can do within those settings to drive healthier behaviours—that 's exactly why we need the consultation . nathan cook: but i would say , through that scheme as well , we 've really got a really good bank of preschools that are actually doing some really great work in this area as well . so , i think the more we can understand the successes that some of those environments are having—you know , how we can roll those out and work across other settings to create that wider impact as well is going to be really important . suzy davies am: okay . thank you . what i 'm thinking about is expectations at that level will be expectations at a slightly older level , which will be contained within the foundation phase . and while you 're quite right—obviously , parents have a role in this , or families—there will be , particularly with the introduction of the new curriculum , certain expectations on schools to provide not just healthy environments but to actively work towards well-being and healthy weight in children and things . and that 's why i asked you about local leadership , because , if it fails for reasons that have nothing to do with the plan at foundation phase , it 's going to fail further up the school years as well . i think it might be something that the board might want to consider here , because at some point there 'll be an accountability question and we will want to know how 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' fits in with the new plans for the new curriculum , and whether it 's merely persuasive and influential or whether it has the weight to place some obligations on school leaders about what they do in their schools . so , this connection , i think , is quite an important one , and , if the strategy development board could consider that , i think it would be very helpful , because this does n't exist in a vacuum . dr frank atherton: well , i 'd certainly be delighted to take that back and we can look at it in terms of how we move from the consultation into the final strategy . it 's certainly a point we can try and look at . suzy davies am: because we will want to know who to ask : 'you 're the accountable person—why has something worked , or not worked ? ' we will need to know that at some point . dr frank atherton: just building on nathan 's point , some of the schools—i know it 's schools rather than the preschools , and i take your point , but some of the schools we 've been working with have absolutely brilliant models of good practice and good local leadership . i remember the minister actually at the launch , and one of the schools was represented there , and they presented—the school came and some of the children came and presented—to the whole audience about the activities that they were undertaking in their school around physical activity and on healthy eating , and it was such a model of good behaviour the question was , 'well , why not everywhere ? ' , so that probably speaks to your question . suzy davies am: okay , well , thank you for that commitment anyway . lynne neagle am: and have you had any discussions , then , with education officials around things like teacher training and cpd , because you 'll be aware the health and social care committee has made a number of recommendations in this area ? it 's crucial that we skill up the staff to develop these things in an appropriate way , is n't it ? dr frank atherton: well , we certainly discuss with education colleagues in welsh government . there 's more we need to do in terms of that , because you 're absolutely right : there 's something about building the whole of the workforce—education is really important , but elsewhere as well ; it 's about how do we really make every contact count , you know , that construct . so , everybody who 's working in the health and social care system should have a role in this ; everybody who works in education , whether it 's the old— . do we still have dinner ladies ? or teachers , you know , they have a role to play in supporting children to be as healthy as they possibly can . and , actually , i see them , chair , as a really essential part of the public health workforce . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . suzy , are you going to do your curriculum one ? suzy davies am: well , i 've bound it in together , but that final point you make about teachers being part of the answer to this , they 're already under a range of pressures : is it fair to make them accountable for whether this works or not ? or should that local leadership lie somewhere else ? i do n't expect you to pin down a person today . dr frank atherton: i would n't like to blame a teacher or performance manage them on the proportion of their children in their class who are overweight . that would clearly be nonsense , would n't it ? but they are part of the solution , and so the accountability lies further up the chain , does n't it ? the question i think we would have , and public services boards might well ask , and the local education authorities may well ask , is : how effective is any particular school at driving forwards these healthy behaviours ? suzy davies am: okay , thank you . i 'll leave some questions for hefin . lynne neagle am: hefin . hefin david am: is that all right , chair ? lynne neagle am: you 've got the floor , hefin . hefin david am: thank you , chair . you make a commitment to embedding physical activity at an early stage in primary school education . what would that look like ? dr frank atherton: just in terms of the physical activity , i have to say it 's a really important dimension and we need to move further on . we know not enough of our children are physically active and they 're not meeting the various guidelines , so it 's really important . it does n't actually have as much of an impact on weight as the dietary issue . i 'd just say that . it 's really important for all sorts of reasons . it does have an impact on healthy weight , but it has a huge impact in terms of socialisation , in terms of mental health issues , et cetera , you know . so—i 'm sorry , i 've lost track of your question . nathan cook: i 'd just say that one thing we have got in train is , obviously , sport wales , public health wales and natural resources wales—we have them working together as a collaborative at the moment to look at how their joint delivery on physical activity can be taken forward more efficiently . so , one of the things they are looking at is obviously the schools programmes they do through eco-schools , the welsh network of healthy schools and the sports programme to really think about that physical activity and how we can have better join up in terms of the programmes that we 're already delivering as well . hefin david am: with that in mind , i 'm going to confess to you , chief medical officer , i did anything in school i could to avoid physical education lessons . i hated it . i did n't feel engaged with it . yet , two weeks ago , i played for the assembly rugby team—i wanted to get that in . the school sports survey , that would suggest that we 're still not hitting those targets with children . how can we get children more engaged with physical education in ways that— ? i felt completely alienated in school . dr frank atherton: well , you 're right , and many people go through that same journey and come to physical activity later in life , and that 's great if they do that . the sad reality is that many people do n't , and we also know that there are issues around the dropping off , particularly for girls , of physical activity towards the teenage years . so , there are specific moments that we need to understand . we do have a lot of information about these kinds of things . public health wales is very good at collating the information . we do need to turn that into programmes . i mean , at the heart of it , it 's about making sports and physical activity enjoyable and attractive to people . sometimes that 's easier , i sense , for boys than for girls , but we need to tailor things to different audiences . hefin david am: yes , that 's the trick , is n't it ? it 's about finding out what children enjoy doing . that could be quite a wide and varied range of things . is that the key ? dawn bowden am: it 's not all about organised team sports . hefin david am: yes . as dawn said , it 's not just about organised team sports . there are some very individual activities you could do . dr frank atherton: absolutely , yes . and that 's where i think— . i 'm delighted that sport wales has moved beyond . it 's not just about elite sports ; it 's about getting everybody engaged and active in sports , and that partnership with public health wales that nathan talked about is really important , because we need a population approach to driving physical activity . hefin david am: so , do you think , with that in mind , we need statutory guidance for schools on physical education ? dr frank atherton: again , i 'd look to the consultation as to whether there was an appetite for any kind of guidance . it may well be that that is something that could be considered . hefin david am: okay . and finally , with regard to free school meals to all pupils in primary and secondary schools , do you think that extending that to all pupils would be beneficial in providing a more varied diet for pupils ? dr frank atherton: i do n't have a personal view on that . i think it 's the quality of the food that kids are getting , whether that comes from home or through school , and whether it 's free or whether it 's paid for . i think it 's the quality of the food that we need to focus on . the question of children being hungry at school is a really important one and needs to be addressed at a national level . i think that 's a— hefin david am: so , you think that 's more about the provision of food for those who might not have access to it than providing a varied diet . dr frank atherton: i think it 's important that children have access to food , absolutely , if that 's your question , but we also need to look at the quality of the food and what 's in that food offer . hefin david am: but you do n't necessarily think universal provision would— . dr frank atherton: i do n't have a clear view on that . i know there 's a larger debate about that . hefin david am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: i 've got some supplementaries from janet and then suzy . janet finch-saunders am: yes . i 've been around some amazing schools in my own constituency , where they 've got proper canteen facilities for pupils and really , really good produce in the meals . however , there 's probably only a third having school meals ; the rest are packed lunches . and , to be honest , i 've been very surprised and shocked at what i 've seen of the quality of the food in the packed lunches . nobody can really police , and i would n't want to see parents being policed over what goes in a packed lunch , so if there is data out there to suggest that there 's a larger percentage of parents providing packed lunched that are really not good at all , then there is some merit to be said for what hefin is— . me , personally , i 'd love to see the introduction of universal school meals . i think it 's been a very retrograde step , going backwards . would you be willing to carry out any research ? dr frank atherton: so , i mean , your point about food that 's brought in in the packed lunches is a really important one , and i 've talked to some headteachers as well about this . we could go down a route of guidance and prohibition , but that gets you into the role of nanny in chief and i do n't really see that as my role or government 's role , and i do n't think it 's effective either . do you remember— ? you must have seen on tv—i think it was in scotland ; i do n't know if it 's happened in wales—parents pushing the fish and chip packets through the school railings . we do n't need to get into that . what i have seen , though , is some really good innovative practice in schools where , for example , they reward children for bringing the healthy options . schools can give guidance to parents about what would be a healthy lunch and what sort of things might be expected to be seen in the lunch box . and you can reward children , and children do respond to rewards . so , i 've seen some of those approaches that have transformed , actually , the offer of what comes in school boxes . but i think just banning chocolate bars and crisps in the packed lunch is unlikely to be successful . janet finch-saunders am: we ca n't do that . so , my point to the question was : is n't there some merit , perhaps , about all children being equal and eating similar good-quality food in schools ? dr frank atherton: yes . that gets you back to the question about universal school meals . janet finch-saunders am: perhaps some of that £56 million sugar tax , even . who knows ? lynne neagle am: suzy . suzy davies am: yes . mine is just a short question . the draft plan commits , does n't it , to updating the healthy eating in schools regulations—the 2013 regulations ? i appreciate this is a consultation , but what is it that needs changing in those regulations at the moment , just to give us a bit of steer ? nathan cook: it 's mainly on sugar content , so , obviously , they do n't adhere to current scientific advisory committee on nutrition guidelines around sugar levels . so , what we 'd want to consider is , you know , what we need to be careful of is unintended consequences of changing that , as well , if you see a shift to more kids bringing in school packed lunches as well . so , i think we want to consider the best way of doing that and consider through the consultation how we can go about it . suzy davies am: all right . so , it 's very pertinent to janet 's question , in that way . okay , so it 's mainly about sugar , but it could be about other things as well . okay . thanks . lynne neagle am: okay . the next questions are from janet anyway ; firstly , on the clinical obesity pathway . janet finch-saunders am: the 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' plan commits to a review of the clinical obesity pathway . what are the time frames for this review , and what do you think are the basic essentials of a clinical obesity pathway for children and young people ? dr frank atherton: we do have a pathway for managing overweight , and that 's been in place since about 2010 , i believe , and we do need to bring that up to date in terms of current knowledge and experiences . we 've challenged public health wales ; we 've asked public health wales to undertake a review of that pathway , and they are going through that process now . i 'm not sure of exactly the time frame that we have given them for that . nathan cook: we were asking them to review the pathway before we launch the final strategy in october because , obviously , what we want is for that to inform what that final strategy looks like . so , we 'll be looking probably early autumn for them to report back on that . dr frank atherton: the second point of your question about what are the essential elements , i mean , they are already there ; we need to tweak them and we need to make sure that they 're properly delivered . but it 's a tiered approach , so , having access to information through schools and through communities and into families is part of the first step of that . and then , if children are overweight , it 's a question about how they 're identified . there are questions about the ability of the public to recognise large children , so there may be an issue there . but when children are running into issues around weight , what kind of interventions can be put in , either through primary care or through communities through health visitors , et cetera ? and then of course we do have—and we 've started to shine a light on this , have n't we—the very overweight children . i do n't think we have enough in the way of targeted support to be able to support those . there are programmes available , but they 're perhaps not universally provided . so , i think there 's something about looking at our whole pathway , mapping out what the current evidence now shows us is needed , and then thinking about what is our provision in wales and what do we need to do to bring that up to the level of the places that are the best . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . the draft plan recognises the importance of the first 1,000 days , but it does n't appear to include any new proposals to help parents to enable lifestyle changes . it lists existing initiatives , such as the healthy child wales programme and breastfeeding action plan . are you satisfied that the draft plan does enough to address the influence that family and parents have on children 's healthy weight behaviours , particularly in the first 1,000 days ? dr frank atherton: well , the first 1,000 days are really critically in shaping lives , as i 'm sure you 'd agree . we are absolutely open to any other suggestions that the public or this committee have as to what more we can and should do . there are a number of things , the sorts of programmes you 've mentioned , that i think could be more effective . we 're currently looking at breastfeeding because it starts before birth , actually . we know that children who are breastfed are less likely to suffer from obesity in childhood and , indeed , to go on to be obese adults . so , we do need to go further on that . we do have some programmes—healthy working wales , et cetera—that need to be improved . if there are other interventions in other areas that we need to take , then we 'd be delighted to hear what they are , but those are the ones that have jumped out so far . nathan cook: can i just say— ? one of the proposals we 're looking for is , obviously , we know that during pregnancy it 's a really critical time when we can actually look to work with mothers . we know from looking at some of the behaviour change that it 's actually a really critical point when new mothers really start thinking about their lives , wanting the best for their child and their families . so , what we are thinking about is how we could develop some kind of approaches to that going forward . but we know our healthy start scheme is also a good lever for us , just in terms of how we can look to improve that kind of dietary offer at the earliest stage as well . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . finally , we know that for some families day-to-day challenges can make it difficult for them to make healthy choices , particularly for those on lower incomes and/or maybe using food banks . could the welsh government take bolder action to better support low-income families to eat healthily ? dr frank atherton: well , you 've touched on a really important point about inequalities because overweight and obesity is not evenly distributed across our population . it absolutely is more prevalent in more socioeconomically deprived communities , and that 's something that should really concern us all . so , it gets you to questions of availability of fresh food and produce ; it gets you to questions of formulation of products and whether value brands are less healthy than more premium brands . so , it cuts across all of those issues that we talked about in terms of settings and in terms of environment earlier . there is something about the affordability of good-quality healthy food that we need to think about . we do need to think in broad terms—broader terms than just obesity , but we do need to think in broad terms—about how we create a society where families have the wherewithal to lead healthy lives , and that gets you to really important questions about the minimum wage and income poverty . there 's no doubt in my mind—i 'm a public health professional—and there 's no doubt in my mind that economic success and health success go hand in hand . so , you speak to a very deep question there . in terms of what we can do through this particular consultation , there are some things in there about providing better access , but without tackling some of those deeper determinants of health , their impact will necessarily be limited . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: just finally from me , then , you referred earlier to the importance of making every contact count , but some stakeholders have told the committee that they struggle to do that because of difficulties in availability of people to refer to . is that a situation that you recognise and what , really , can we do to improve that situation ? dr frank atherton: well , it depends what you mean as to where to refer to . so , the health system obviously needs to respond to this issue . what we 're seeing across the nhs is a gradual transformation in primary care so that primary care is no longer about going to see your gp , it 's about going to see a practice where you have a range of health professionals . would i like to see more dietetic support , for example , in that setting ? absolutely i would . i think we need to think in terms of that pathway that we were talking about earlier , about access to that kind of advice and support , which can head off people getting into problems and kids getting into problems with weight issues . so , that question of redesign of the pathway really speaks to , i think , your point about , 'well , where do people go when they have problems with their weight ? ' that 's true for adults and it 's true for children as well . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . are there any other questions from members ? no . okay . well , can i thank you both very much for your attendance ? it 's been a really productive session . we appreciate your time . you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy in due course , but thank you again . dr frank atherton: we 'll do that . thank you , chair , and thank you to the committee , because getting some input into the consultation from children 's perspectives , this would be one of the routes we would absolutely welcome . thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much . item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the welsh health specialised services committee on camhs tier 4 provision . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for health and social services also on camhs in-patient provision . paper to note 3 is a letter from the children commissioner for wales on tier 4 camhs provision . paper to note 4 is a letter from qualifications wales to the minister for education on qualifications for the new curriculum . paper to note 5 is a letter from me to the minister for education on the development of the new curriculum . paper to note 6 is a letter from me to the minister for education seeking clarification on the draft additional learning needs code . paper to note 7 is a letter from me to the minister for education seeking clarification on the response to our brexit report . paper to note 8 is a letter from the equality and human rights commission on a cumulative impact assessment briefing for committee , which has been offered . paper to note 9 is a letter from the chair of the petitions committee on a national taskforce for children ’ s mental health . paper to note 10 is a letter to the secretary of state for exiting the european union from the children ’ s commissioners for england , scotland , wales and northern ireland on the implications of brexit for children . there are a few that i 'd like to return to in private , but are members happy to note those ? thank you . okay . item 4 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? suzy davies am: yes . there 's somebody up there . lynne neagle am: thank you .

dr frank atherton considered that just in terms of the physical activity , it was a really important dimension and they found that their children were not that physically active and could n't meet the various guidelines . embedding physical activity at an early stage in primary school education might not have the same effect as the dietary issue did to healthy weight , but it was vital to pupils socialization and mental health .

what was dr frank atherton 's opinion on providing a more varied diet for pupils ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from michelle brown and jack sargeant ; there are no substitutions . can i ask if members have any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . we 'll move on , then , to item 2 , which is our scrutiny of the 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' draft strategy , and i 'm very pleased to welcome dr frank atherton , the chief medical officer for wales , and nathan cook , who is the head of the healthy and active branch at welsh government . thank you , both , for attending this morning . we 're very much looking forward to hearing what you 've got to say . if you 're happy , we 'll go straight into questions . if i can just start by asking about the fact that 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' is an all-age strategy , really , and how confident you are that it will deliver for children and young people . dr frank atherton: well , we 're very confident . i mean , it has to , quite clearly . we do need to think about the present generation , the problems faced by the current generation . we have high prevalence of overweight and obesity among adults—we know that , and we ca n't walk away from that because that 's translating into demand on health services . but we have to take a focus , a future generation 's focus , almost , on the next generation . i do n't write off the current generation , we ca n't afford to do that , but we do need to think about what can we do that would be different for the next generation so that they do n't get into the sorts of problems that we 're currently seeing with overweight and obesity . we know that the consequences of that for our young people are going to be enormous if we do n't do something and something quite soon . we know that overweight children go on to become overweight adults , unfortunately , and that brings all the consequences of multiple disease issues—diabetes is often cited—cancer risk et cetera . so , we have to focus on children , and , in fact , during the consultation , we 've been very clear that we need to engage with children and young people as well . perhaps we 'll get into that at some point , chair , but , yes , i can give you that assurance . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . what my follow-up question , really , is : can you just tell us what kind of engagement you 've had with children and young people to inform the draft strategy ? dr frank atherton: well , nathan may be able to influence some of the detail , but in broad terms , we have discussed with young people in a number of fora . in fact , i was delighted that we had a young person , evie morgan , a schoolgirl from mid wales , who came to the joint launch on the consultation . she met the minister there and gave a very good personal account of her views on obesity and overweight . we 've been visiting a number of schools during the consultation process . i 'm visiting a school , either this week or next week , at treorchy , to talk with teachers and young people there . obviously , we 're hopeful that schools and young people will contribute to the consultation as well . so , we 've had quite good input , i would say , from children and young people . there is always more we can do we and we want to hear those voices . nathan cook: i was going to say , we 've also had a session with youth ambassadors as well , and what we 've actually produced for the consultation is not just the children and young people 's version , but also a toolkit in terms of getting schools really engaged and involved in terms of the work that we want them to do to feed into this as well . so , we 've already had some really good responses from a lot of youth group and schools already . lynne neagle am: and you 've got a structured programme , have you , to roll that out ? okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on leadership , and the first questions are from siân gwenllian . sian gwenllian am: good morning . i 'll be speaking in welsh . the minister for health said yesterday , in answering a question from me on the chamber floor , that you gave him advice not to have a target in terms of reducing obesity among children . could you confirm that that 's what your advice was and tell us why you do n't think that a target is needed ? dr frank atherton: my advice was not that we do n't need a target—we may well need a target , and that 's one of the issues we need to consult on—but that the target that had been adopted in england and in scotland to halve the prevalence of obesity in children was more aspirational than deliverable , and that if we are to choose a target in wales , then we need to balance deliverability with challenge . we need a challenging environment . so , there is something about performance management , because i would be looking to not just the health system but the health and care system and to public services boards to think about how they 're delivering on this , and i think we can use targets to that . but they are one tool in the box that i would think we could use , and part of the consultation is to ask that question—'if we are to go down a route in wales of choosing a target , what might that look like ? ' sian gwenllian am: okay . so , to be clear , you 're not ruling out that maybe we would need a target . dr frank atherton: it 's certainly something that we could consider in terms of the final strategy . sian gwenllian am: and is that your opinion too ? nathan cook: yes . sian gwenllian am: okay . well , that is contrary to what i was told yesterday on the floor of the chamber by the minister , but there we go . i 'm glad to hear that you 're not ruling out having a target , because without a target , without something to aim for , how do we know that we 're getting there ? dr frank atherton: i think your point about evaluation is really important . whatever we produce at the end of this process—and we 're looking to produce a final strategy towards the autumn—we do need to have a strong evaluation . so , some metrics in there , it would seem , would be appropriate , but what those are , what the nature of those are , do we frame them as targets or ambitions—that 's the point we need to consult on . sian gwenllian am: okay . and the other point , of course , is the investment . if the government is going to be successful in terms of the aim of reducing childhood obesity , then it needs to fund and support the actions . have you made an assessment of the level of investment needed to implement this plan ? dr frank atherton: resourcing will be important . we currently do make investments in a number of areas that relate to child health generally , and , of course , obesity and overweight in particular . so , the question of resourcing is important . now , we ca n't quantify an absolute amount of resource that will be needed to deliver until we know exactly what 's going to come out of the consultation and what actions we might want to deliver to a greater degree in wales . a figure of £8 million to £10 million a year has been banded around as a broad kind of area of what we might need to invest , but that would need to be drawn from existing programmes . we need to look at existing programmes , how effective they are . can we make them more effective ? can we get better value from them ? and there may well be a case for new investment , and that 's a question , of course , that would need to be discussed with ministers when we 're producing the final strategy . nathan cook: but i think a key consideration as well is we already know there is investment across health boards in some kind of obesity-related services . so , i think what we really need to think about across wales is how we can drive greater scale , how we can look at current programmes in terms of making sure that they 're better evaluated , and how we can make sure that we 're also drawing up on the existing resources and capacity out there as well . sian gwenllian am: and does the level of investment depend on what the target is—what the goal is ? dr frank atherton: i do n't think you can necessarily just link the two . the issue of resourcing is one that 's there irrespective of whether we choose to put a target in place . sian gwenllian am: but how would we know that it 's being used effectively if there is n't something to aim for ? dr frank atherton: which brings you back to the question about evaluation . we need proper evaluation of the various programmes that we have . sian gwenllian am: yes , but without a target , how can you properly evaluate ? if you do n't know what you 're trying to do , how can you properly evaluate ? anyway , you 're open to suggestions about having a target , which is great . would you agree that government could use the revenue that 's being produced through the levy on soft drinks towards some of these efforts to— ? dr frank atherton: well , of course , there are some consequentials that are coming to the welsh government as part of the levy on sugary soft drinks . that funding , of course , is less than we had anticipated , and that reflects , actually , a success story because industry is reformulating , and so the amount of sugar in soft drinks is already starting to decrease , which is a good thing . but to your question : should we use the funding ? well , of course we should use funding . i 'm not personally in favour of hypothecation , i think i 'm more interested in the totality of resource that goes into public health programmes than into marginal resource . there are , of course , a number of initiatives that we currently fund through the general revenue . and when i think about obesity , i do n't just think about the relatively small marginal amounts of money that come in through whatever source , but i think about the totality of the £7 billion we spend in health and social care and how we can divert and channel some of that towards broad prevention initiatives in general , and towards tackling being overweight and obesity in particular . sian gwenllian am: you 're saying that it 's less than expected . could you give us any kind of figure ? dr frank atherton: i 'm sorry , could you repeat the question ? sian gwenllian am: you say that there is less money that 's come in through these consequentials from the levy , can you mention some sort of figure ? dr frank atherton: the figure that i have in mind is about £56 million that 's coming in in terms of revenue over a two-year period . but i 'd have to confirm that with the committee . what the anticipated— . when the sugar levy was first brought in , there was some modelling at uk level about what level of revenue that would bring , but it was based on the amount of sugar that was currently then in drinks and the fact that the sugar has reduced in drinks , i mean , the total amount available to the uk is less and hence our consequentials are less . nathan may have some precise figures . nathan cook: yes , i was going to say , there was a mid-year report done where the levy has raised £150 million to date since coming into force in april , and the original forecast was £520 million a year . so , i think that shows the amount of work that 's been done by industry around reformulation . sian gwenllian am: and the consequentials of that ? that is the consequential—£150 million . nathan cook: on a uk level . sian gwenllian am: yes , so what 's the welsh consequential ? lynne neagle am: fifty-six . sian gwenllian am: fifty-six ? gosh , that sounds a lot . anyway , it 's a good sum of money and you 're talking about investing £8 million to £10 million . so , obviously , you know , we can be more ambitious because there is money in that pot if that money was ring-fenced for this particular scheme . dr frank atherton: well , the resource is going to be a real issue that we need to address , and i think as nathan has said , there is funding of various initiatives currently in the system , and we need to look at that and make that as effective as possible . will there be a need for some additional resource ? there may well be , and that 's a question that we 'll have to look at in terms of the strategy when we develop it and have a discussion with ministers about the level of resourcing . lynne neagle am: can i just ask on that before siân moves on ? what assessment have you made of how that money is being spent in other uk nations ? because my understanding is that the money is being used in other uk nations to directly impact on obesity . have you given any consideration to— ? as i understand it , that money now is being dispersed around a plethora of programmes , including the transformation programme , and what i found very odd , really , was vaccination , which is surely the core business of the nhs . have you got any view on that ? dr frank atherton: i 'm not sure i understand your point , chair , in terms of the link between the consequentials from— . are you talking about the consequentials from the sugar levy or are you talking about— ? lynne neagle am: yes , because in other nations , it is being used to directly impact on initiatives to tackle obesity , whereas , we 've kind of put it here in wales into the general pot and it 's being used to fund a plethora of different things . dr frank atherton: well , that cuts to what i was talking about . my preference—it 's a personal view—is that hypothecation does n't really help us too much . i mean , what we need to look at is whether the programmes , the sorts of programmes that are being funded in england , or indeed in scotland , are working effectively , and if they are , are they being delivered here in wales ? we have looked very carefully at the plans that england and scotland have for tackling obesity and overweight , and we 've made a comparison with what we 're doing in wales , and our ambition in wales is to go further than those nations , in many ways . but i come back to the point that just linking the hypothecation of a relatively small amount of resource is likely to be less impactful than asking a question of public services boards and of the health system , indeed , about how much money , overall , are we putting into prevention . lynne neagle am: no , i recognise that , and i think we 're talking about additional resource . suzy . suzy davies am: i was just wondering whether you thought that there was a useful psychological link on the part of the public between saying , 'here 's a sugar levy ' , and 'it 's going to be used to help children and adults stay healthier . ' going into a pot , it actually makes it quite difficult to explain the purpose of the tax in the first place . so , i take your overall point , but in terms of the people who we 're trying to help in all this , actually creating a direct link might be quite helpful . dr frank atherton: you may be right . i 'm not a behavioural psychologist . we 'd have to ask— suzy davies am: neither am i. i 'm a person who eats a lot of sugar . [ laughter . ] dr frank atherton: your point 's taken . suzy davies am: thank you . lynne neagle am: thanks . siân . sian gwenllian am: the last question from me , about partnership working . you 're putting an emphasis on the whole-system approach in implementing the plan , how are you going to create a system that co-ordinates action and drives change across relevant partners , avoiding a situation where it 's everyone 's role , but nobody 's responsibility ? how are you going to avoid that ? dr frank atherton: it 's a very important question , and one of the four strands in the consultation is exactly related to that , around leadership and drive nationally . i 'm not interested in producing a strategy that sits on a shelf . if you look around the world , there are plenty of obesity strategies . you may notice , by the way , that we 've chosen not to talk about an obesity strategy but a healthy weight strategy , because i think having a positive construct is really quite important to us here in wales . but leadership will be really important , and we will need some sort of structure to lead this , to provide oversight . i 'm not a great believer in creating new structures , so we do need something that will give that drive , but the leadership comes from the top down . we need political commitment to this , and that 's why i welcome the input from this committee . so , that needs to be assured . and then we need to make sure that the public sector generally is engaged in this , but it goes way beyond the public sector , of course , because we have to work with industry , and we have to work with communities , and we have to work with the public on this . so we need to think about our governance system for this and how we drive it forward . interestingly , we had quite a large discussion two days ago between health and social care , but also involving the third sector and some members of the public , around how can we drive prevention more generally . it was n't specifically on obesity , but of course obesity came up because it 's such a pressing issue . this question of governance was discussed quite extensively , and we do have governance systems , of course , in wales . we have public services boards , we have regional partnership boards , and how we can get those aligned behind this common agenda is really important . but i 'd like to see—and i know i 'm a public health professional , so i know that only maybe 10 per cent , 15 per cent , possibly 20 per cent of what makes and keeps us healthy as individuals and as communities can be driven through the health system ; but i would like the system to step up and take these kinds of issues more seriously as well . so i 'd be looking for local leadership through directors of public health and indeed through chief executives to work with their public services boards on this . so , we 'll need some sort of national oversight , absolutely , but we need local ownership and local leadership , too . lynne neagle am: thank you . we 've got some questions now from janet finch-saunders . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . delivery of the plan will be led by a national implementation board that will be accountable to ministers . which minister do you believe it should be accountable to , or , given the complexity of obesity , should the board be directly accountable to the first minister ? dr frank atherton: ultimately , the first minister will be responsible for this and will want to have a strong oversight of this . it is often framed as a health issue , and the minister , vaughan gething , has a strong personal commitment to this , i know . we 've talked extensively with him and with sports and recreation colleagues about that , so there 's a link there . it does cut across all portfolios , and so this is an issue that i have discussed with cabinet , and that collective ownership is really important , and will be , because it ca n't just sit in one domain . i think what you do need to have is you do need to have a lead organisation or a lead ministry , and i would see health as—i work within health , so i 'm perhaps biased , but i would see health as leading this , but it needs broad ownership across government . janet finch-saunders am: i know my colleague siân gwenllian mentioned earlier targets and things , but i know in wales we 're not too good at collecting data . what data is currently available on childhood obesity and what metrics will be used to measure progress against the plan 's objectives ? dr frank atherton: well , of course , our main data source is the child measurement programme , which collects information on children entering school aged four or five . that 's our main source of information . if we look at that data , it shows us— . well , i 'm sure you 're familiar with the statistics , but it 'll be just under a third of children at that age who are overweight or obese— janet finch-saunders am: could i just ask—sorry to interrupt—how up to date is that ? dr frank atherton: the last survey was just last year . nathan cook: the data was published last week . dr frank atherton: yes , the lastest data was out last week . janet finch-saunders am: it is pretty up to date . dr frank atherton: so , it 's pretty up to date , and what it shows— . it 's not getting radically worse—there 's always statistical variation in these things—but it 's not getting any better . and , for the first time last year , we did look at the question not just of children who were overweight or obese , but we actually singled out the proportion who are obese , severely obese . so we have a figure for that for the first time , which is about 12 per cent , which is quite shocking , in a way . janet finch-saunders am: it is shocking . dr frank atherton: so , that 's our main source of information . does that answer your question ? janet finch-saunders am: yes , but how will any gaps in your data be addressed ? dr frank atherton: well , one of the questions that are often asked is : could we measure more on a longitudinal basis ? by that i mean in england , for example , children are measured at school entry and then again at year 11—at age 11 or 12. , that kind of age group . and so you do have a longitudinal view over time of what 's happening to children . i think that would be helpful to us in wales , and it 's one of the questions in the consultation about whether we should expand that . obviously , that would have significant resource implications , not just for the funding , but also for schools and for the system to deliver it . but it 's something that maybe would help us in terms of better understanding and better evaluation—the point that was made earlier . nathan cook: and the other data we do have is the millennium cohort study , which has been released , for 14 and 15-year-olds . that 's going to be— . we 're starting to think about how we can utilise some of that data , looking at that longitudinal picture around children as well , which will be really helpful . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . you 've answered my next question . thank you . lynne neagle am: can i just ask about the child measurement programme ? the strategy commits to looking at whether we can have a second measurement taking place in wales . can you just tell us a bit more about your thinking on that and when you would see a second measurement taking place and how you would use that data ? dr frank atherton: i touched on that just now , but personally i do think it would be helpful to have more information . it 's always the case , there 's always a trade-off between the cost of getting that information and the value of the information . so , the question of how it would be used would be really important . there is still a lot that we do n't know . we know an awful lot about obesity and being overweight and the causes of it , but we do n't really have a very clear understanding , in wales at least , of the point at which children start to become overweight . although we know that overweight children tend to go on to become overweight adults , we do n't know what proportion of them between school entry and later teenage years—what those changes are . so , it would help us to have some better understanding , which would help to direct some of our initiatives . i 'd be generally supportive of the principle . we 'll wait and see what comes out in the consultation , and it 's something that we need to give thought to , but we do have to trade off the additionality of what the information would give us with the cost of doing that , of course . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . we 've got some questions now on healthy environments from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . in the draft plan , some of the measures in there suggest legislating for restricting price promotions and banning energy drinks , and that sort of thing . do you think that , if we go down that road , there 's going to be time within this assembly to introduce such legislation ? and , if not , what do you think might be the timescale for such legislation ? dr frank atherton: it may well be that there are things in wales that we might wish to legislate on , and you 've mentioned two of them , and they 're good examples . we would , obviously , need to undertake quite detailed consultation on those and , in a way , we need to mirror what 's happening in england and in scotland to some degree around the consultations they 're having on energy drinks . we also need to influence the issues that are not devolved to us and we seek to do that . as to your question of legislative time , i 'm not really in a position to answer that . what i could say is that legislation may well be one of the outcomes of the consultation . there may well be things that we wish to choose to legislate on . the timing of that will have to be subject to other pressures , and i come back to the point that legislation , of course , is one of the tools that we 've got—we need to deploy them all . dawn bowden am: sure , i understand that , that you could do other things . i know— . we 've heard from the government , on other calls for legislation , that the programme 's very tight , certainly for this term , so i was just wondering whether we might get that in , but okay . if i turn now to the planning system—and this might not be something that you have great deal of knowledge of ; i 'd just welcome your view on this , because , when we discussed with stakeholders , we talked about whether the planning system , for instance , could be used to , as an example , restrict hot food takeaways around schools and so on . would that be a measure that you would support , something like that ? dr frank atherton: i think it 's definitely something we want to look at and , of course , that question is asked in the consultation , so we would like to know people 's views on that . it 's an interesting one . i think there is a question—a really important question—about how we can use the planning system more effectively . i 've discussed with nathan on a number of occasions , with planning colleagues in welsh government and in local authorities , about the art of the possible , let 's say . there may be things that we could think about and we want to get those ideas through the consultation . the specific question around takeaways , particularly takeaways near schools , is often asked . i was very interested to see , up in the north-east , some time ago , that one of the local authorities up there did put a moratorium on the opening of new fast-food venues near to schools , or indeed in areas where levels of obesity and overweight were particularly high . i understand london is now—some london boroughs are now—experimenting with that as well . so , that gave me comfort , because maybe there are powers within local authorities that can be used more effectively . i think my view at the moment is that the jury 's kind of out on whether those are effective and how effective they 're going to be . but the fact that we have some initiatives around the uk does give us an opportunity to study that and to learn from experience perhaps and then , if it is shown to be beneficial , to think about that here in wales , yes . dawn bowden am: sure , because it will only be one of a suite of measures anyway . of itself , it would n't address the problem , but , added to other initiatives , i guess it would . can i just ask you briefly , then , about community sport infrastructure and , in particular , of new schools ? so , welsh government , as you know , has ploughed a huge amount of money into the twenty-first century schools programme . what we heard when we spoke to stakeholders recently , particularly headteachers , was that , in some of the new schools that have been built , we have n't had changing rooms and toilet facilities , for instance , built into the new buildings . so , if we 're going to try and utilise these buildings for general community activity to get kids and the wider public , actually , more active , do you think that 's something that we ought to be building in ? again , not your particular direct area of responsibility , but something that you might have an input into , is that , when we 're developing schools , we should be making sure that they have those kinds of facilities so that they become accessible to the wider public . is that something that you would be prepared to make a recommendation around ? dr frank atherton: well , it 's certainly a fascinating area and one that i think has a lot of potential . it goes— . you 're right to raise it in the context of schools , and i can understand why this committee would , but i think it goes beyond that , actually , into all developments in the public sector and how they 're developed and whether we 're building health into our environment , which perhaps is your starting point . one of the things that i was really pleased to see in terms of the public health ( wales ) act 2017 that was passed a couple of years ago was the use of health impact assessment as a tool , and we 're still working on how that will inform policy and how that will be applied in issues such as policy decisions through government , but also in more downstream issues about how we create the public infrastructure that the public can and should be using . and so i would like to see the use of health impact assessments to a much greater degree to inform those kinds of decisions . if you apply that kind of lens and you take the point , which is inherent in your question , i think , that schools are not just for kids , they 're for communities , then you would—it would lead you to a conclusion that you would perhaps design and build them in a different way . so , on a personal basis , i would certainly support your view that we should be looking to use the sports environment in schools in the same way as we use leisure centres . there are all kinds of barriers in there , and i understand all of that , and it 's not really my field , exactly as you say , but , as a matter of principle , i think it 's a good one to pursue . dawn bowden am: okay . thank you . and widening it out to other public services buildings as well . dr frank atherton: indeed . dawn bowden am: yes . okay . thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 're going to move on now to talk about how we create healthy settings . i 've got some questions from suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you very much . yes , perhaps if we could just stay in this area of education just for a moment , i think we all agree that healthy habits acquired early on probably tend to last quite well , so i wonder if you can tell us a little bit about the healthy and sustainable preschool scheme and whether you think some timescales should be made public about what you expect the achievements from that scheme to be . but , in particular , i was struck with what you said about local leadership , and i just want you to bear that in mind in answering the next question , which is about the foundation phase . you 're probably aware that this committee has heard from various school leaders that they 're struggling in some cases to meet the ratio of staffing for the foundation phase , which potentially compromises the purpose of it in terms of physical activity . i 'm just wondering how the strategy development board is considering that at the moment . is it something that 's come on the radar for the board ? is it something you 're thinking about ? and , if so , who do you think should be responsible for pinning that down a little bit ? because this is education , not health , and— . dr frank atherton: well , look , i 've got to confess to you , i 'm not an educationist , and so the question on staffing numbers in schools is not one that i have been asked to give a deal of consideration to , and it has n't really been discussed , i do n't believe , in the context of development of the strategy . if there is a specific point around that that the committee would like to make in terms of a response into the consultation , which i presume you 'll be making , then we 'd be happy to consider that . as to healthy preschools , i do n't know , nathan may have some view on that . i 've not been closely involved with the work . we have standards and we perhaps need to think about how we tighten those standards and how we—enforce is n't the right word , but how we implement and make sure that those standards are properly implemented , because you 're absolutely right to say that habits are developed early in life . that 's in the preschool ; it 's also in the home of course , and then later in the school . so , we do need to look at all of those as settings and are there more things we can do within those settings to drive healthier behaviours—that 's exactly why we need the consultation . nathan cook: but i would say , through that scheme as well , we 've really got a really good bank of preschools that are actually doing some really great work in this area as well . so , i think the more we can understand the successes that some of those environments are having—you know , how we can roll those out and work across other settings to create that wider impact as well is going to be really important . suzy davies am: okay . thank you . what i 'm thinking about is expectations at that level will be expectations at a slightly older level , which will be contained within the foundation phase . and while you 're quite right—obviously , parents have a role in this , or families—there will be , particularly with the introduction of the new curriculum , certain expectations on schools to provide not just healthy environments but to actively work towards well-being and healthy weight in children and things . and that 's why i asked you about local leadership , because , if it fails for reasons that have nothing to do with the plan at foundation phase , it 's going to fail further up the school years as well . i think it might be something that the board might want to consider here , because at some point there 'll be an accountability question and we will want to know how 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' fits in with the new plans for the new curriculum , and whether it 's merely persuasive and influential or whether it has the weight to place some obligations on school leaders about what they do in their schools . so , this connection , i think , is quite an important one , and , if the strategy development board could consider that , i think it would be very helpful , because this does n't exist in a vacuum . dr frank atherton: well , i 'd certainly be delighted to take that back and we can look at it in terms of how we move from the consultation into the final strategy . it 's certainly a point we can try and look at . suzy davies am: because we will want to know who to ask : 'you 're the accountable person—why has something worked , or not worked ? ' we will need to know that at some point . dr frank atherton: just building on nathan 's point , some of the schools—i know it 's schools rather than the preschools , and i take your point , but some of the schools we 've been working with have absolutely brilliant models of good practice and good local leadership . i remember the minister actually at the launch , and one of the schools was represented there , and they presented—the school came and some of the children came and presented—to the whole audience about the activities that they were undertaking in their school around physical activity and on healthy eating , and it was such a model of good behaviour the question was , 'well , why not everywhere ? ' , so that probably speaks to your question . suzy davies am: okay , well , thank you for that commitment anyway . lynne neagle am: and have you had any discussions , then , with education officials around things like teacher training and cpd , because you 'll be aware the health and social care committee has made a number of recommendations in this area ? it 's crucial that we skill up the staff to develop these things in an appropriate way , is n't it ? dr frank atherton: well , we certainly discuss with education colleagues in welsh government . there 's more we need to do in terms of that , because you 're absolutely right : there 's something about building the whole of the workforce—education is really important , but elsewhere as well ; it 's about how do we really make every contact count , you know , that construct . so , everybody who 's working in the health and social care system should have a role in this ; everybody who works in education , whether it 's the old— . do we still have dinner ladies ? or teachers , you know , they have a role to play in supporting children to be as healthy as they possibly can . and , actually , i see them , chair , as a really essential part of the public health workforce . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . suzy , are you going to do your curriculum one ? suzy davies am: well , i 've bound it in together , but that final point you make about teachers being part of the answer to this , they 're already under a range of pressures : is it fair to make them accountable for whether this works or not ? or should that local leadership lie somewhere else ? i do n't expect you to pin down a person today . dr frank atherton: i would n't like to blame a teacher or performance manage them on the proportion of their children in their class who are overweight . that would clearly be nonsense , would n't it ? but they are part of the solution , and so the accountability lies further up the chain , does n't it ? the question i think we would have , and public services boards might well ask , and the local education authorities may well ask , is : how effective is any particular school at driving forwards these healthy behaviours ? suzy davies am: okay , thank you . i 'll leave some questions for hefin . lynne neagle am: hefin . hefin david am: is that all right , chair ? lynne neagle am: you 've got the floor , hefin . hefin david am: thank you , chair . you make a commitment to embedding physical activity at an early stage in primary school education . what would that look like ? dr frank atherton: just in terms of the physical activity , i have to say it 's a really important dimension and we need to move further on . we know not enough of our children are physically active and they 're not meeting the various guidelines , so it 's really important . it does n't actually have as much of an impact on weight as the dietary issue . i 'd just say that . it 's really important for all sorts of reasons . it does have an impact on healthy weight , but it has a huge impact in terms of socialisation , in terms of mental health issues , et cetera , you know . so—i 'm sorry , i 've lost track of your question . nathan cook: i 'd just say that one thing we have got in train is , obviously , sport wales , public health wales and natural resources wales—we have them working together as a collaborative at the moment to look at how their joint delivery on physical activity can be taken forward more efficiently . so , one of the things they are looking at is obviously the schools programmes they do through eco-schools , the welsh network of healthy schools and the sports programme to really think about that physical activity and how we can have better join up in terms of the programmes that we 're already delivering as well . hefin david am: with that in mind , i 'm going to confess to you , chief medical officer , i did anything in school i could to avoid physical education lessons . i hated it . i did n't feel engaged with it . yet , two weeks ago , i played for the assembly rugby team—i wanted to get that in . the school sports survey , that would suggest that we 're still not hitting those targets with children . how can we get children more engaged with physical education in ways that— ? i felt completely alienated in school . dr frank atherton: well , you 're right , and many people go through that same journey and come to physical activity later in life , and that 's great if they do that . the sad reality is that many people do n't , and we also know that there are issues around the dropping off , particularly for girls , of physical activity towards the teenage years . so , there are specific moments that we need to understand . we do have a lot of information about these kinds of things . public health wales is very good at collating the information . we do need to turn that into programmes . i mean , at the heart of it , it 's about making sports and physical activity enjoyable and attractive to people . sometimes that 's easier , i sense , for boys than for girls , but we need to tailor things to different audiences . hefin david am: yes , that 's the trick , is n't it ? it 's about finding out what children enjoy doing . that could be quite a wide and varied range of things . is that the key ? dawn bowden am: it 's not all about organised team sports . hefin david am: yes . as dawn said , it 's not just about organised team sports . there are some very individual activities you could do . dr frank atherton: absolutely , yes . and that 's where i think— . i 'm delighted that sport wales has moved beyond . it 's not just about elite sports ; it 's about getting everybody engaged and active in sports , and that partnership with public health wales that nathan talked about is really important , because we need a population approach to driving physical activity . hefin david am: so , do you think , with that in mind , we need statutory guidance for schools on physical education ? dr frank atherton: again , i 'd look to the consultation as to whether there was an appetite for any kind of guidance . it may well be that that is something that could be considered . hefin david am: okay . and finally , with regard to free school meals to all pupils in primary and secondary schools , do you think that extending that to all pupils would be beneficial in providing a more varied diet for pupils ? dr frank atherton: i do n't have a personal view on that . i think it 's the quality of the food that kids are getting , whether that comes from home or through school , and whether it 's free or whether it 's paid for . i think it 's the quality of the food that we need to focus on . the question of children being hungry at school is a really important one and needs to be addressed at a national level . i think that 's a— hefin david am: so , you think that 's more about the provision of food for those who might not have access to it than providing a varied diet . dr frank atherton: i think it 's important that children have access to food , absolutely , if that 's your question , but we also need to look at the quality of the food and what 's in that food offer . hefin david am: but you do n't necessarily think universal provision would— . dr frank atherton: i do n't have a clear view on that . i know there 's a larger debate about that . hefin david am: okay , thank you . lynne neagle am: i 've got some supplementaries from janet and then suzy . janet finch-saunders am: yes . i 've been around some amazing schools in my own constituency , where they 've got proper canteen facilities for pupils and really , really good produce in the meals . however , there 's probably only a third having school meals ; the rest are packed lunches . and , to be honest , i 've been very surprised and shocked at what i 've seen of the quality of the food in the packed lunches . nobody can really police , and i would n't want to see parents being policed over what goes in a packed lunch , so if there is data out there to suggest that there 's a larger percentage of parents providing packed lunched that are really not good at all , then there is some merit to be said for what hefin is— . me , personally , i 'd love to see the introduction of universal school meals . i think it 's been a very retrograde step , going backwards . would you be willing to carry out any research ? dr frank atherton: so , i mean , your point about food that 's brought in in the packed lunches is a really important one , and i 've talked to some headteachers as well about this . we could go down a route of guidance and prohibition , but that gets you into the role of nanny in chief and i do n't really see that as my role or government 's role , and i do n't think it 's effective either . do you remember— ? you must have seen on tv—i think it was in scotland ; i do n't know if it 's happened in wales—parents pushing the fish and chip packets through the school railings . we do n't need to get into that . what i have seen , though , is some really good innovative practice in schools where , for example , they reward children for bringing the healthy options . schools can give guidance to parents about what would be a healthy lunch and what sort of things might be expected to be seen in the lunch box . and you can reward children , and children do respond to rewards . so , i 've seen some of those approaches that have transformed , actually , the offer of what comes in school boxes . but i think just banning chocolate bars and crisps in the packed lunch is unlikely to be successful . janet finch-saunders am: we ca n't do that . so , my point to the question was : is n't there some merit , perhaps , about all children being equal and eating similar good-quality food in schools ? dr frank atherton: yes . that gets you back to the question about universal school meals . janet finch-saunders am: perhaps some of that £56 million sugar tax , even . who knows ? lynne neagle am: suzy . suzy davies am: yes . mine is just a short question . the draft plan commits , does n't it , to updating the healthy eating in schools regulations—the 2013 regulations ? i appreciate this is a consultation , but what is it that needs changing in those regulations at the moment , just to give us a bit of steer ? nathan cook: it 's mainly on sugar content , so , obviously , they do n't adhere to current scientific advisory committee on nutrition guidelines around sugar levels . so , what we 'd want to consider is , you know , what we need to be careful of is unintended consequences of changing that , as well , if you see a shift to more kids bringing in school packed lunches as well . so , i think we want to consider the best way of doing that and consider through the consultation how we can go about it . suzy davies am: all right . so , it 's very pertinent to janet 's question , in that way . okay , so it 's mainly about sugar , but it could be about other things as well . okay . thanks . lynne neagle am: okay . the next questions are from janet anyway ; firstly , on the clinical obesity pathway . janet finch-saunders am: the 'healthy weight : healthy wales ' plan commits to a review of the clinical obesity pathway . what are the time frames for this review , and what do you think are the basic essentials of a clinical obesity pathway for children and young people ? dr frank atherton: we do have a pathway for managing overweight , and that 's been in place since about 2010 , i believe , and we do need to bring that up to date in terms of current knowledge and experiences . we 've challenged public health wales ; we 've asked public health wales to undertake a review of that pathway , and they are going through that process now . i 'm not sure of exactly the time frame that we have given them for that . nathan cook: we were asking them to review the pathway before we launch the final strategy in october because , obviously , what we want is for that to inform what that final strategy looks like . so , we 'll be looking probably early autumn for them to report back on that . dr frank atherton: the second point of your question about what are the essential elements , i mean , they are already there ; we need to tweak them and we need to make sure that they 're properly delivered . but it 's a tiered approach , so , having access to information through schools and through communities and into families is part of the first step of that . and then , if children are overweight , it 's a question about how they 're identified . there are questions about the ability of the public to recognise large children , so there may be an issue there . but when children are running into issues around weight , what kind of interventions can be put in , either through primary care or through communities through health visitors , et cetera ? and then of course we do have—and we 've started to shine a light on this , have n't we—the very overweight children . i do n't think we have enough in the way of targeted support to be able to support those . there are programmes available , but they 're perhaps not universally provided . so , i think there 's something about looking at our whole pathway , mapping out what the current evidence now shows us is needed , and then thinking about what is our provision in wales and what do we need to do to bring that up to the level of the places that are the best . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . the draft plan recognises the importance of the first 1,000 days , but it does n't appear to include any new proposals to help parents to enable lifestyle changes . it lists existing initiatives , such as the healthy child wales programme and breastfeeding action plan . are you satisfied that the draft plan does enough to address the influence that family and parents have on children 's healthy weight behaviours , particularly in the first 1,000 days ? dr frank atherton: well , the first 1,000 days are really critically in shaping lives , as i 'm sure you 'd agree . we are absolutely open to any other suggestions that the public or this committee have as to what more we can and should do . there are a number of things , the sorts of programmes you 've mentioned , that i think could be more effective . we 're currently looking at breastfeeding because it starts before birth , actually . we know that children who are breastfed are less likely to suffer from obesity in childhood and , indeed , to go on to be obese adults . so , we do need to go further on that . we do have some programmes—healthy working wales , et cetera—that need to be improved . if there are other interventions in other areas that we need to take , then we 'd be delighted to hear what they are , but those are the ones that have jumped out so far . nathan cook: can i just say— ? one of the proposals we 're looking for is , obviously , we know that during pregnancy it 's a really critical time when we can actually look to work with mothers . we know from looking at some of the behaviour change that it 's actually a really critical point when new mothers really start thinking about their lives , wanting the best for their child and their families . so , what we are thinking about is how we could develop some kind of approaches to that going forward . but we know our healthy start scheme is also a good lever for us , just in terms of how we can look to improve that kind of dietary offer at the earliest stage as well . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . finally , we know that for some families day-to-day challenges can make it difficult for them to make healthy choices , particularly for those on lower incomes and/or maybe using food banks . could the welsh government take bolder action to better support low-income families to eat healthily ? dr frank atherton: well , you 've touched on a really important point about inequalities because overweight and obesity is not evenly distributed across our population . it absolutely is more prevalent in more socioeconomically deprived communities , and that 's something that should really concern us all . so , it gets you to questions of availability of fresh food and produce ; it gets you to questions of formulation of products and whether value brands are less healthy than more premium brands . so , it cuts across all of those issues that we talked about in terms of settings and in terms of environment earlier . there is something about the affordability of good-quality healthy food that we need to think about . we do need to think in broad terms—broader terms than just obesity , but we do need to think in broad terms—about how we create a society where families have the wherewithal to lead healthy lives , and that gets you to really important questions about the minimum wage and income poverty . there 's no doubt in my mind—i 'm a public health professional—and there 's no doubt in my mind that economic success and health success go hand in hand . so , you speak to a very deep question there . in terms of what we can do through this particular consultation , there are some things in there about providing better access , but without tackling some of those deeper determinants of health , their impact will necessarily be limited . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . lynne neagle am: just finally from me , then , you referred earlier to the importance of making every contact count , but some stakeholders have told the committee that they struggle to do that because of difficulties in availability of people to refer to . is that a situation that you recognise and what , really , can we do to improve that situation ? dr frank atherton: well , it depends what you mean as to where to refer to . so , the health system obviously needs to respond to this issue . what we 're seeing across the nhs is a gradual transformation in primary care so that primary care is no longer about going to see your gp , it 's about going to see a practice where you have a range of health professionals . would i like to see more dietetic support , for example , in that setting ? absolutely i would . i think we need to think in terms of that pathway that we were talking about earlier , about access to that kind of advice and support , which can head off people getting into problems and kids getting into problems with weight issues . so , that question of redesign of the pathway really speaks to , i think , your point about , 'well , where do people go when they have problems with their weight ? ' that 's true for adults and it 's true for children as well . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . are there any other questions from members ? no . okay . well , can i thank you both very much for your attendance ? it 's been a really productive session . we appreciate your time . you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy in due course , but thank you again . dr frank atherton: we 'll do that . thank you , chair , and thank you to the committee , because getting some input into the consultation from children 's perspectives , this would be one of the routes we would absolutely welcome . thank you . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much . item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a letter from the welsh health specialised services committee on camhs tier 4 provision . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for health and social services also on camhs in-patient provision . paper to note 3 is a letter from the children commissioner for wales on tier 4 camhs provision . paper to note 4 is a letter from qualifications wales to the minister for education on qualifications for the new curriculum . paper to note 5 is a letter from me to the minister for education on the development of the new curriculum . paper to note 6 is a letter from me to the minister for education seeking clarification on the draft additional learning needs code . paper to note 7 is a letter from me to the minister for education seeking clarification on the response to our brexit report . paper to note 8 is a letter from the equality and human rights commission on a cumulative impact assessment briefing for committee , which has been offered . paper to note 9 is a letter from the chair of the petitions committee on a national taskforce for children ’ s mental health . paper to note 10 is a letter to the secretary of state for exiting the european union from the children ’ s commissioners for england , scotland , wales and northern ireland on the implications of brexit for children . there are a few that i 'd like to return to in private , but are members happy to note those ? thank you . okay . item 4 , then , is a motion under standing order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting . are members content ? suzy davies am: yes . there 's somebody up there . lynne neagle am: thank you .

in fact , dr frank atherton did not give an exact opinion on providing a more varied diet for pupils . it would be something needing consultation and consideration , then they might decide whether it was worth carrying out . the quality of food , rather than preparing school meals or not , was more important to dr frank atherton .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: well hi everyone again . user interface: hello . industrial designer: hello . marketing: hello project manager: um like before we uh i have to redo the meetings from n th the minutes from the last meeting marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and so here we go . uh it was discussed in the last meeting uh which was opened by the presentation from the interface um designer that uh looks would be very important on this new remote user interface: designer . marketing: project manager: and um it is to send messages of course to the tv . it should have nine channel buttons , a next button , volume buttons , subtitle buttons , switch to control features , colour contrast , sharpness etcetera . it should have a memory switch , a mute button in case the telephone rings or something . uh speech recognition is one of her very f favourite personal uh features she would like see d d to be integrated in this um in this new remote . um . should be child friendly design with few buttons , colourful maybe with s star shaped or other shaped buttons . um she uh presented also an oversized remote which she guarantees nobody will ever be able to lose . user interface: project manager: um marketing: and she was challenged on that point project manager: that 's right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: project manager: but uh her very f personal favourite really she , she would very much like to see a speech recogniser integrated in this remote . the industrial designer um presented her uh thoughts on the issue . she would like a special case made out of plastic that is very strong , not using any harmful materials , should be recyclable and should be colourful . should have an integrated circuit board that 's highly sophisticated and temperature resistant . she would like to see a timer and or alarm facility integrated . uh technically this thing would also have a resistor and a capacitor , diode transistor , resonator , and if possible a rechargeable battery . uh and of course a circuit board . and how it would works , you press the button , the chip is morse morse code related relays the uh to the generat to the generator amplification and uh the circuit board is very inexpensive to build and so she thinks this is a great feature uh to to to consider . marketing: okay . project manager: she would like uh this whole thing should be push buttons with a simple chip uh scrolling method is more expensive and not that practical anymore . should be battery operated and of course she would have the special cases . the marketing expert uh who has to finally come up with to to to market this product has been watching the competition , has done some research on the internet and also has used h her personal observations to come up with the fact that such a remote sh should be small , easy to use and it should be eye catching . from her point of view of course one of the most important facts is that we should get to market before our competition does . to do that uh maybe one or two features should be developed on which we could dwell on or in other words on which our campaign could be built on . too many new features or too many points would only confuse matter . so we prefer to have one or two features that can be really uh driven home . um it should have a fruit and vegetable design and should have a soft feel . she feels that 's really what people want today . and the decision that we took last time was that uh the special feature we would like to see is a speech recogniser , the energy should be battery uh should be on a chip , should be trendy design , compact and strong , and should have buttons . and that concludes the presentation from the last minutes from the last meeting . now uh we are ready for the presentation of the prototype . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: just the look like , the button part i 'll explain . industrial designer: yeah . uh so this is our what uh we have made . this is a model of the remote control which we are going to build . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh this is us in a snail shape so uh it it is attractive marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and it 's it 's blue in colour uh bright and uh it has yellow buttons and all the different colour buttons marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so it is a uh uh a looks-wise it is beautiful . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh and also compact in shape . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh um and also i it it will be easily fit into into the hands and you can access all the buttons easily . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . good . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: industrial designer: oops , sorry . marketing: you used to have all the buttons user interface: industrial designer: um yeah and um uh the material which we are going to use for the case is uh plastic and uh w which which is s strong um uh and also uh for the um the material is plastic and uh for the buttons it is uh s soft rubber um and als marketing: oh that 's good , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: no , that 's nice and friendly . industrial designer: yeah because uh uh you 'll be touching the buttons more so it is soft when you touch it . marketing: mm-hmm . mm . project manager: mm-hmm , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then um uh for the for the led , for the light emitting diode it is a fluorescent green marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and it 's a a it is a bulb like an ordinary infrared . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and and the button button 's part uh will be explained by f francina . user interface: okay . marketing: okay . user interface: now the um we decided upon including certain features on our remote . now these features includes the s um signal emitting uh signal it 's the led or l_e_d_ the infrared . project manager: mm-hmm , marketing: yeah , okay , mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: now uh we have included the switch on and off button . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: now we have included another feature that is the mute button marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: on the side of the model . then we have included one to nine buttons marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: for controlling the programmes the different channels . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we have also included two buttons for increasing or decreasing the volume . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and we have also included two buttons for scrolling up and scrolling down the programme channels . now our our model also contains a button which is called as the menu button . marketing: mm . project manager: what kind of button ? user interface: menu button . project manager: menu ? uh menu th menu , uh one one . user interface: yes , menu marketing: menu button . user interface: at the centre marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we have included a button which is fluorescent green colour and this is the menu button which will control the colour , sharpness , brightness marketing: mm-hmm . of the screen . mm , mm-hmm . user interface: of this uh picture . we have also included a button which is called as the swapping button . now this is uh a special , special feature which we have included . now this button is an elongated shaped button and this is slightly flexible so if it is turned towards the right it will take to the previous channel , if it is turned towards the right it will take to the next channel . it will take the user to the previous and the next channel so this is a swapping button . marketing: the next channel in the numeric pattern , or user interface: no , swapping is if if example you 're you 're watching the second channel and then you go to the tenth channel and if you want to go back to the second channel you can swap , this button . marketing: yeah , mm-hmm . mm . user interface: yes . marketing: okay , okay . user interface: and at the end , it this remote has inbuilt voice recogniser which c which will recognise the user 's voice and then it 'll act accordingly . project manager: okay . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: so this is our proposed model . marketing: okay . user interface: now the marketing expert has to marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: tell , yeah . user interface: give her suggestion whether it 'll be sellable or it 'll be cost effective . industrial designer: marketing: okay , well um what what i really like a lot about it is that you can reach the whole thing with one thumb , user interface: yes , yes . marketing: that you can really hold it in one h you do n't need two hands industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and it 's easily reachable even for somebody with a small hand , yeah ? project manager: yes the buttons are all raised , right ? marketing: the buttons are all raised project manager: are raised , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: and if you hold it in the centre of your hand you can even reach it over here so you do n't have to turn it around , turn it upside down , move it up , up and down , project manager: right . or have two hands to operate it , yeah . marketing: i really like that . user interface: mm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: you really did a good job on that , my little designers . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um and um i like the idea that the on-off button is in a really prominent place . that 's that 's a really good good thing . project manager: yes , and it sort of sticks up so that you really marketing: yeah , that 's great . project manager: you do n't have to g first go like oh yeah here it 's on and yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: abs okay . marketing: the colour 's very attractive . um the um these buttons uh around here are the mute user interface: no , these the front buttons which are here , are the mute buttons . marketing: and these mm-hmm on both sides they 're mute ? user interface: yes , yes . marketing: so you can push either one ? user interface: yes . marketing: okay . project manager: so if you 're left-handed or right-handed it does n't matter . marketing: and this brings the menu up on the screen ? user interface: pardon me ? this is the menu yes , yes . marketing: this brings the menu up on the screen and the orange ones are user interface: a the the these these two are th to increase or decrease the volumes , marketing: okay . user interface: and these two are to uh scroll the programme channels . marketing: f f okay . user interface: scroll up or scroll down the channels . marketing: right , very good . uh it looks mm looks like something i can sell . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: okay and now i 'm supposed to project manager: well , i have one question marketing: yeah . project manager: uh will there be anything written on the buttons , like that people know , or they have to learn that from a piece of paper which button does what ? user interface: yes , it will have uh these buttons will have the numbers and all the rest of the buttons will have symbols . industrial designer: ah . yeah , definitely . project manager: will have symbols so that that that the user really knows you know and does n't have to first learn it user interface: yes , which can be easily recognised . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: good point because we need the symbols 'cause we 're going into an international market we ca n't have anything that 's language dependent . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah of course , and also user interface: yes . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: yeah . but anyway it would ha i i i it has to have some kind of of symbols , text or something so that people kn industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah we can text . marketing: symbols on it . mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . industrial designer: text that we can have on the case itself , project manager: that 's right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: we can it will be printed on the case and symbols as well as the buttons . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , yeah just wanted make sure of that mm-hmm . user interface: and and one more feature is we we have a holder for this remote which is an oyster shape . marketing: mm , 'kay , mm . mm-hmm . user interface: a shell shape . marketing: for the snail , yeah , mm-hmm , project manager: right , mm-hmm . user interface: yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah . so it is marketing: we have the snail shell . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yes , snail shell . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: he goes right back into his shell . industrial designer: yeah shell . project manager: right . user interface: yes . marketing: well you know i think we could do something really funny with this too because the snail is known to be slow industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and we could have some sort of little comic effect on our marketing about how this is a rapid snail or something like that user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm . user interface: y yes industrial designer: yeah , of course , yeah . marketing: you know that would , that would really work . project manager: now what , what are our special features for the marketing ? marketing: so project manager: that 's really the voice recognition that 's really unusual marketing: i think voice recognition is our big selling point industrial designer: mm . mm-hmm . marketing: 'cause nobody else seems to have that in in this price range . industrial designer: mm . project manager: and then , and then the other thing would basically be sh shape or practicality of use . marketing: yep project manager: you know . marketing: uh well i think that everybody 's gon na say their remote control is practical . i think we have to , we have to dwell on on on the appearance . project manager: colours . mm-hmm . marketing: we 're really gon na have the be the project manager: cutest . marketing: cutest remote control on the block . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm . marketing: so i think we have to play with the image , play with the snail image um play with the visual and then the voice recognition . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: i think those are the two things to push . the look and the voice recognition . they 're gon na be our two selling points . project manager: okay , now uh having said that marketing: i 'm supposed to make a little presentation , are n't i ? project manager: no , now this was our evaluation criteria which we uh just have done . marketing: okay . project manager: now we 're gon na talk about financing . marketing: ah , but in my instructions i think it said i was supposed to go to the board and do something . project manager: well , there is a production evaluation . marketing: no ? project manager: is that you ? marketing: yeah , that 's me . project manager: but that 's after the financing . marketing: oh , okay . project manager: see ? fi see ? marketing: sorry , sorry . mm-mm . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: um . okay , we had looks and voice recognition . okay now on the financing we bring up the mm there it is . okay uh energy source we say that 's battery , right ? industrial designer: mm . marketing: that 's right . project manager: okay , now . so we i guess we use one . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: what ? t cell or chart you are trying to change is protected . well , that 's nice . she told me i could just ch change it here and then it would it does n't work . hmm . marketing: can you just fill it in in the yellow boxes ? or project manager: oh , okay yeah , okay , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: let 's see . okay , one , okay . user interface: yes . project manager: oh go away . um kinetic source so that 's in the energy source that 's all we need . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: uh electronics , simple chip on print ? is that 's what we 're using ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: one of those ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: come on . okay , one . uh regular chip on print . no . that 's all we need , the one industrial designer: no . yeah . project manager: case , uncurved flat , single curved , double curved . marketing: well . industrial designer: this is a user interface: single curve ? mm . marketing: i guess it 's double curved . project manager: double curved ? one of those ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: case materi s supplements . plastic we said , right ? user interface: plastic . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh wood , rubber ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: rubber , because we 're gon na have the soft buttons . project manager: uh but , yes but industrial designer: i think uh that is uh f for rubbers that is uh yeah case material . project manager: that 's just for the case material , user interface: is this for the case ? yes . project manager: so special colours though , we having that , marketing: oh okay , the mm-hmm , mm ' kay . project manager: right ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then we have to interface push buttons . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: scroll wheel , no . integrated scroll wheel , l_c_ display ? user interface: no . marketing: no , project manager: button . marketing: 'cause we did n't put the clock in it after all , right ? project manager: no . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh , button supplement special colour ? user interface: speci yes project manager: special form ? user interface: yes d we do have special form . marketing: yes . project manager: and special material , rubber , wood , yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . total seven point six whatever that means . industrial designer: uh , i think that 's the price . project manager: that 's the price . user interface: one two three four five six seven eight nine project manager: mm ? industrial designer: maybe it is it just n project manager: eight , eight point two . that 's user interface: nine points , project manager: hmm ? user interface: okay , yes . project manager: eight point two , right ? so , we looks like we are well within budget . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . i guess i should save this i suppose , huh ? marketing: yeah . project manager: oops . uh-huh huh huh . user interface: on the desktop . project manager: i just tried that . my documents , computer . industrial designer: ami . project manager: my compu ah oh here it is , yes . industrial designer: ami should for project manager: okay , fine . save . okay good , so that 's the good news . we gon na be popular . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: project manager: um . so that uh i think financing was pretty simple . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: now we would like to have a presentation by the marketing expert on production evaluation . marketing: okay , i 'll take my file down so you can bring it up . 'kay should be able to get it now . 'kay , why do n't you move just to the next slide right away . project manager: you wan na go to the next slide ? marketing: yeah right away . project manager: okay . marketing: okay , well uh obviously my method for uh s m the marketing of this thing is first to ask the big question , will it sell ? and i think we should show this prototype to people from various age and socio-economic groups and see about any fine tuning that maybe little things we have n't thought of . user interface: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: we ca n't accept every suggestion of course , but maybe we just need to get a few . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and show the the prototype to consumer research groups , we do n't s want somebody to suddenly come to us and tell us that this button is toxic and you know some child will swallow it and then we wo n't sell any . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm . marketing: so we have to get some input from those people . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and then after that we just have to go with our best intuition and you know we like it , we think it 's good , we 're gon na get behind it and sell it . um , next slide please . okay , now the things that i was thinking and th my wish list has really been realised in this prototype . i wanted the shape to be biomorphic , i did n't want anything with angles and all square , i wanted it to be comfy and roundy so we we 've got that . the size is small , the colour 's bright and warm which is what we wanted . we wanted the feel to be as soft as possible , we 'll have the soft buttons industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and the way this is shaped , even though it 's gon na be hard plastic , it feels good in your hand so that 's nice . and functionality i put last on my list because people are n't going to use it before they buy it . industrial designer: marketing: so paradoxically the other features , in other words , the look , the feel um and the shape , that 's what people are gon na get in the store . user interface: fee selling . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: they do n't have a television in the store , they ca n't play with it . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um so they 'll be our main selling points . so um th those have been fulfilled by your prototype and go ahead to the next slide please . okay , so um the shape um i think is a a one . that 's really , really excellent shape . the size is small um and th these points are in the importance for the , for the marketing , these are n't i in how i feel . i think that it 's i think that it 's plenty small enough to sell but i think we 're sort of right the scale is one to seven . i think we 're sort of right in the middle as far as c other competitors . user interface: okay . marketing: and our colour i think is great . the colours are bright and warm and we really do great job there . and given um the constraints that we had i think we got it as soft as possible . and then functionality um i think you did a really good job on functionality , obviously we could have ad added different functions but then we 'd disturb something else so i would say that we got to a five out of seven on on functionality . user interface: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so i think that basically we 've got a great product and we can get off and running with it . project manager: um i just realised one thing . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: in the financing there was no room for our voice recogniser . marketing: yes . user interface: yes . marketing: ah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i do n't know how we can evaluate that or how we can include that , too . marketing: well , um we had what , eight eight euros twenty as our cost ? project manager: eight , eight twenty , yes . industrial designer: eight twenty so marketing: and so we 've got we 've still got four euros to go to spend . industrial designer: we have um four euros , yeah project manager: i mean maximum we have another four point three euros i mean four thirty . marketing: mm-hmm . well um that 's project manager: but i mean we have no way of presenting that to management as you know as a f finished , as a finished product and saying okay with the voice recogniser that costs so much . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so um we just have to beware of that . i mean and know whether the four thirty will really cover that . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: well as we know in today 's technic technological world you can do just about anything at any price , the the the problem is quality . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so we 're just gon na have to settle for whatever quality that will buy us . industrial designer: yeah , user interface: yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and um it may not be the greatest quality but it may sell anyway . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , still . marketing: as we 've seen with so many of these kinds of products . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i 'm sorry to interrupt then but i just uh recog i just remembered that there was no that that was not um included uh that there was no room for any special features , okay ? industrial designer: included , yeah . hmm , user interface: yeah mm . industrial designer: hmm project manager: so to beware of that . you wan na go to this next slide , marketing expert ? marketing: uh , well i is n't this my last slide ? project manager: i dunno . marketing: maybe . project manager: yes it is . mm-hmm . marketing: go ahead . i think that was my last slide , yeah . um . mm okay . and i 'm supposed to present this scale on the whiteboard . um and we 're supposed to talk about those things as a team now , so if you put my last slide back up there . project manager: oh . marketing: i 'm sorry i 've um forgot to do that , um . project manager: why ? wh why you need that up ? marketing: hmm ? well because i ca n't remember what i put on there . okay . industrial designer: marketing: now i 'm supposed to see how long my leash is here . project manager: i think you can make it there . marketing: mm 'kay . you ready . so now we 're all supposed to say what we think . um okay so on shape i gave it a one . wait what would you ra uh one being good and seven being the worst . user interface: worse , okay . marketing: um what do you think the shape is ? user interface: one . marketing: one , okay , and be betsy ? project manager: yes i think uh shape is one . industrial designer: yeah , even my yeah , shape is one . marketing: okay , uh-huh one , okay . and how about on size ? on size project manager: you you gave it a four . marketing: i gave it a four , yeah , i feel it 's just average . project manager: um , i dunno . i think i would give it at least a two . marketing: okay . user interface: one . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , even i think it is one . it 's quite small . marketing: okay . okay user interface: marketing: you 're the designer , of course you wan na give it a one . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um and then how about how we doing on colour ? project manager: colour uh i marketing: colour , i gave it a one . project manager: one . marketing: i really like all those nice bright , warm colours . project manager: i i like the colours . one . user interface: one . yes . marketing: one . industrial designer: yeah , one . marketing: one , one , one , okay . and how about the feel ? taking into um consideration texture and comfort in the hand . project manager: uh , i think i would give it a two . marketing: okay , i gave it a three , two , user interface: i 'll give three . marketing: yeah ? three . industrial designer: uh maybe two , marketing: two , okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and the next is functionality where i i admit i was a little hard on our team here , but project manager: well it 's also you ca n't really try it out uh the other things you have have more is are more tangible so from that point of view marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: but um i 'll give it a three . marketing: okay . user interface: two . marketing: two , okay . industrial designer: uh three , mm-hmm . marketing: three ? okay . well , um . it looks like we 've got got ourselves a pretty good product . um the functionality 's the only place where maybe we have to think about m m maybe , heaven forbid , having another meeting . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but um otherwise i think we 're we 're ready to go to go with this product . anybody else have any other comments or any other things that we feel we should evaluate ? project manager: uh . here is what we looking at uh satisfaction on for example room for creativity . um . is there more room for creativity or are we absolutely happy ? user interface: we can always improve , yes . industrial designer: maybe we can yeah , include some more buttons and uh um user interface: yes , features . industrial designer: yeah features . we can make the buttons few buttons smaller . uh i think they are quite big , so i think i i mean we can just have small buttons and more buttons in that case . if we want to have more features than that . marketing: mm-hmm . well then again if we 're gon na um do the speech recognition thing we 're gon there gon na be some buttons that are gon na have to be added for that for the recording of the the speech . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , definitely . user interface: yes . voices . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so that that 's where we 're gon na have to do maybe we can eliminate one of the mute buttons , instead of having two mute buttons . industrial designer: yeah , definitely , yeah , two mu mute buttons . user interface: yes . yes . marketing: and um then maybe we can do something with the um the volume control . maybe we can put that all on one button . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: um and a couple of other th maybe comp uh consolidate some of the usage an and see what we can do with that . project manager: y um al always bearing in mind that right now we are of course well within the budget industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and maybe project manager: and that we still you know we probably ca n't , with this particular item , we probably ca n't just uh add a whole lot of more things . marketing: mm-hmm . no . project manager: uh um we need uh you know we need to leave space money-wise for the voice recogniser . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so th the question really is how do we feel with the project process ? uh , um are we happy with the creativity that has passed here or we 're not happy with the new product we created or that was created ? uh i think personally i think uh i 'm pretty happy . marketing: i 'm pretty happy with it too , yeah um , project manager: um an industrial designer: even i 'm happy . marketing: it 's something i think i can market . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and then the next question is are we happy with the leadership of this project ? uh marketing: i think you 've done a good job , miss leader . user interface: yes , yes you 've done a good job . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , definitely . project manager: and i think team work i think was very very good , i think we really industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah i d i do too i think we worked well together as a team , yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i think we are we happy with the means we used ? we used whiteboard , we did n't use digital p well digital pens i guess are these things . marketing: yeah maybe we could 've used the whiteboard a little bit more , yeah , user interface: whiteboard more , yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah , probably . marketing: we did n't use that enough . project manager: yes , we could . uh , it 's maybe not in the best position in the room um you know like sometimes it 's positioned so that it 's much better visible for everybody and i think from that point of view we sort of ignored it a little bit . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: and we used the slide because it was better positioned . project manager: yes , i think so , i think absolutely , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: no . marketing: mm i think that 's true mm-hmm . project manager: and fortunately we all had slides presentation which made it a little easier . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um did we new did we find new ideas ? user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think we did . industrial designer: yeah , many . marketing: i think we were we were very good , yeah , mm . project manager: i think we we did , uh in more than one respect and uh so i think we did very well here . marketing: mm-hmm . okay . project manager: are the costs within budget ? yes , yes . uh is the project evaluated ? yes . marketing: yes , yes . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um then celebration . marketing: celebration . user interface: cel celebration yes , yes . industrial designer: ah . marketing: today we have apple juice and after we sell m million of 'em we have champagne . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: so i i thank you all very much . um , i think this was very good and um industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think we did come up with a new product that 's uh feasible . feasible from the production point of view and feasible from a marketing point of view . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: so , thank you . marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: thank you . industrial designer: thank you very much . marketing: okay . watch i i have my cord behind you here . user interface: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: i always get it on here , but getting it off is industrial designer: do we do we have some time left ? uh you have user interface: they say it 's forty minutes . project manager: ah yes we have time later marketing: but we we were told we could end the final meeting at any time , whenever we felt we were finished . project manager: but we do n't user interface: okay . industrial designer: oh , alright . marketing: it 'll take me the rest of the time to get my microphone out from my necklace . oh , there we go .

project manager first recapped the previous meeting , concluding that the remote should be compact , user-friendly and could function like speech recognition . next , the presentation of the bright blue snail shaped prototype was made by industrial designer and user interface , introducing the appearance and features of the remote . then , feedback was given regarding the prototype , which was mainly positive and speech recognition and cute appearance were decided as its star feature . afterwards , the team discussed the financing of the remote , which should be within the budget of twelve fifty euros . finally , the meeting ended with a project evaluation , which everyone was satisfied with the product and dynamic of the team , and team building .

summarize the recap of the last meeting regarding the presentation by user interface . </s> project manager: well hi everyone again . user interface: hello . industrial designer: hello . marketing: hello project manager: um like before we uh i have to redo the meetings from n th the minutes from the last meeting marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and so here we go . uh it was discussed in the last meeting uh which was opened by the presentation from the interface um designer that uh looks would be very important on this new remote user interface: designer . marketing: project manager: and um it is to send messages of course to the tv . it should have nine channel buttons , a next button , volume buttons , subtitle buttons , switch to control features , colour contrast , sharpness etcetera . it should have a memory switch , a mute button in case the telephone rings or something . uh speech recognition is one of her very f favourite personal uh features she would like see d d to be integrated in this um in this new remote . um . should be child friendly design with few buttons , colourful maybe with s star shaped or other shaped buttons . um she uh presented also an oversized remote which she guarantees nobody will ever be able to lose . user interface: project manager: um marketing: and she was challenged on that point project manager: that 's right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: project manager: but uh her very f personal favourite really she , she would very much like to see a speech recogniser integrated in this remote . the industrial designer um presented her uh thoughts on the issue . she would like a special case made out of plastic that is very strong , not using any harmful materials , should be recyclable and should be colourful . should have an integrated circuit board that 's highly sophisticated and temperature resistant . she would like to see a timer and or alarm facility integrated . uh technically this thing would also have a resistor and a capacitor , diode transistor , resonator , and if possible a rechargeable battery . uh and of course a circuit board . and how it would works , you press the button , the chip is morse morse code related relays the uh to the generat to the generator amplification and uh the circuit board is very inexpensive to build and so she thinks this is a great feature uh to to to consider . marketing: okay . project manager: she would like uh this whole thing should be push buttons with a simple chip uh scrolling method is more expensive and not that practical anymore . should be battery operated and of course she would have the special cases . the marketing expert uh who has to finally come up with to to to market this product has been watching the competition , has done some research on the internet and also has used h her personal observations to come up with the fact that such a remote sh should be small , easy to use and it should be eye catching . from her point of view of course one of the most important facts is that we should get to market before our competition does . to do that uh maybe one or two features should be developed on which we could dwell on or in other words on which our campaign could be built on . too many new features or too many points would only confuse matter . so we prefer to have one or two features that can be really uh driven home . um it should have a fruit and vegetable design and should have a soft feel . she feels that 's really what people want today . and the decision that we took last time was that uh the special feature we would like to see is a speech recogniser , the energy should be battery uh should be on a chip , should be trendy design , compact and strong , and should have buttons . and that concludes the presentation from the last minutes from the last meeting . now uh we are ready for the presentation of the prototype . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: just the look like , the button part i 'll explain . industrial designer: yeah . uh so this is our what uh we have made . this is a model of the remote control which we are going to build . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh this is us in a snail shape so uh it it is attractive marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and it 's it 's blue in colour uh bright and uh it has yellow buttons and all the different colour buttons marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so it is a uh uh a looks-wise it is beautiful . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh and also compact in shape . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh um and also i it it will be easily fit into into the hands and you can access all the buttons easily . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . good . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: industrial designer: oops , sorry . marketing: you used to have all the buttons user interface: industrial designer: um yeah and um uh the material which we are going to use for the case is uh plastic and uh w which which is s strong um uh and also uh for the um the material is plastic and uh for the buttons it is uh s soft rubber um and als marketing: oh that 's good , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: no , that 's nice and friendly . industrial designer: yeah because uh uh you 'll be touching the buttons more so it is soft when you touch it . marketing: mm-hmm . mm . project manager: mm-hmm , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then um uh for the for the led , for the light emitting diode it is a fluorescent green marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and it 's a a it is a bulb like an ordinary infrared . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and and the button button 's part uh will be explained by f francina . user interface: okay . marketing: okay . user interface: now the um we decided upon including certain features on our remote . now these features includes the s um signal emitting uh signal it 's the led or l_e_d_ the infrared . project manager: mm-hmm , marketing: yeah , okay , mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: now uh we have included the switch on and off button . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: now we have included another feature that is the mute button marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: on the side of the model . then we have included one to nine buttons marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: for controlling the programmes the different channels . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we have also included two buttons for increasing or decreasing the volume . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and we have also included two buttons for scrolling up and scrolling down the programme channels . now our our model also contains a button which is called as the menu button . marketing: mm . project manager: what kind of button ? user interface: menu button . project manager: menu ? uh menu th menu , uh one one . user interface: yes , menu marketing: menu button . user interface: at the centre marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we have included a button which is fluorescent green colour and this is the menu button which will control the colour , sharpness , brightness marketing: mm-hmm . of the screen . mm , mm-hmm . user interface: of this uh picture . we have also included a button which is called as the swapping button . now this is uh a special , special feature which we have included . now this button is an elongated shaped button and this is slightly flexible so if it is turned towards the right it will take to the previous channel , if it is turned towards the right it will take to the next channel . it will take the user to the previous and the next channel so this is a swapping button . marketing: the next channel in the numeric pattern , or user interface: no , swapping is if if example you 're you 're watching the second channel and then you go to the tenth channel and if you want to go back to the second channel you can swap , this button . marketing: yeah , mm-hmm . mm . user interface: yes . marketing: okay , okay . user interface: and at the end , it this remote has inbuilt voice recogniser which c which will recognise the user 's voice and then it 'll act accordingly . project manager: okay . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: so this is our proposed model . marketing: okay . user interface: now the marketing expert has to marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: tell , yeah . user interface: give her suggestion whether it 'll be sellable or it 'll be cost effective . industrial designer: marketing: okay , well um what what i really like a lot about it is that you can reach the whole thing with one thumb , user interface: yes , yes . marketing: that you can really hold it in one h you do n't need two hands industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and it 's easily reachable even for somebody with a small hand , yeah ? project manager: yes the buttons are all raised , right ? marketing: the buttons are all raised project manager: are raised , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: and if you hold it in the centre of your hand you can even reach it over here so you do n't have to turn it around , turn it upside down , move it up , up and down , project manager: right . or have two hands to operate it , yeah . marketing: i really like that . user interface: mm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: you really did a good job on that , my little designers . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um and um i like the idea that the on-off button is in a really prominent place . that 's that 's a really good good thing . project manager: yes , and it sort of sticks up so that you really marketing: yeah , that 's great . project manager: you do n't have to g first go like oh yeah here it 's on and yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: abs okay . marketing: the colour 's very attractive . um the um these buttons uh around here are the mute user interface: no , these the front buttons which are here , are the mute buttons . marketing: and these mm-hmm on both sides they 're mute ? user interface: yes , yes . marketing: so you can push either one ? user interface: yes . marketing: okay . project manager: so if you 're left-handed or right-handed it does n't matter . marketing: and this brings the menu up on the screen ? user interface: pardon me ? this is the menu yes , yes . marketing: this brings the menu up on the screen and the orange ones are user interface: a the the these these two are th to increase or decrease the volumes , marketing: okay . user interface: and these two are to uh scroll the programme channels . marketing: f f okay . user interface: scroll up or scroll down the channels . marketing: right , very good . uh it looks mm looks like something i can sell . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: okay and now i 'm supposed to project manager: well , i have one question marketing: yeah . project manager: uh will there be anything written on the buttons , like that people know , or they have to learn that from a piece of paper which button does what ? user interface: yes , it will have uh these buttons will have the numbers and all the rest of the buttons will have symbols . industrial designer: ah . yeah , definitely . project manager: will have symbols so that that that the user really knows you know and does n't have to first learn it user interface: yes , which can be easily recognised . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: good point because we need the symbols 'cause we 're going into an international market we ca n't have anything that 's language dependent . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah of course , and also user interface: yes . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: yeah . but anyway it would ha i i i it has to have some kind of of symbols , text or something so that people kn industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah we can text . marketing: symbols on it . mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . industrial designer: text that we can have on the case itself , project manager: that 's right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: we can it will be printed on the case and symbols as well as the buttons . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , yeah just wanted make sure of that mm-hmm . user interface: and and one more feature is we we have a holder for this remote which is an oyster shape . marketing: mm , 'kay , mm . mm-hmm . user interface: a shell shape . marketing: for the snail , yeah , mm-hmm , project manager: right , mm-hmm . user interface: yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah . so it is marketing: we have the snail shell . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yes , snail shell . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: he goes right back into his shell . industrial designer: yeah shell . project manager: right . user interface: yes . marketing: well you know i think we could do something really funny with this too because the snail is known to be slow industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and we could have some sort of little comic effect on our marketing about how this is a rapid snail or something like that user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm . user interface: y yes industrial designer: yeah , of course , yeah . marketing: you know that would , that would really work . project manager: now what , what are our special features for the marketing ? marketing: so project manager: that 's really the voice recognition that 's really unusual marketing: i think voice recognition is our big selling point industrial designer: mm . mm-hmm . marketing: 'cause nobody else seems to have that in in this price range . industrial designer: mm . project manager: and then , and then the other thing would basically be sh shape or practicality of use . marketing: yep project manager: you know . marketing: uh well i think that everybody 's gon na say their remote control is practical . i think we have to , we have to dwell on on on the appearance . project manager: colours . mm-hmm . marketing: we 're really gon na have the be the project manager: cutest . marketing: cutest remote control on the block . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm . marketing: so i think we have to play with the image , play with the snail image um play with the visual and then the voice recognition . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: i think those are the two things to push . the look and the voice recognition . they 're gon na be our two selling points . project manager: okay , now uh having said that marketing: i 'm supposed to make a little presentation , are n't i ? project manager: no , now this was our evaluation criteria which we uh just have done . marketing: okay . project manager: now we 're gon na talk about financing . marketing: ah , but in my instructions i think it said i was supposed to go to the board and do something . project manager: well , there is a production evaluation . marketing: no ? project manager: is that you ? marketing: yeah , that 's me . project manager: but that 's after the financing . marketing: oh , okay . project manager: see ? fi see ? marketing: sorry , sorry . mm-mm . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: um . okay , we had looks and voice recognition . okay now on the financing we bring up the mm there it is . okay uh energy source we say that 's battery , right ? industrial designer: mm . marketing: that 's right . project manager: okay , now . so we i guess we use one . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: what ? t cell or chart you are trying to change is protected . well , that 's nice . she told me i could just ch change it here and then it would it does n't work . hmm . marketing: can you just fill it in in the yellow boxes ? or project manager: oh , okay yeah , okay , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: let 's see . okay , one , okay . user interface: yes . project manager: oh go away . um kinetic source so that 's in the energy source that 's all we need . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: uh electronics , simple chip on print ? is that 's what we 're using ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: one of those ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: come on . okay , one . uh regular chip on print . no . that 's all we need , the one industrial designer: no . yeah . project manager: case , uncurved flat , single curved , double curved . marketing: well . industrial designer: this is a user interface: single curve ? mm . marketing: i guess it 's double curved . project manager: double curved ? one of those ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: case materi s supplements . plastic we said , right ? user interface: plastic . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh wood , rubber ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: rubber , because we 're gon na have the soft buttons . project manager: uh but , yes but industrial designer: i think uh that is uh f for rubbers that is uh yeah case material . project manager: that 's just for the case material , user interface: is this for the case ? yes . project manager: so special colours though , we having that , marketing: oh okay , the mm-hmm , mm ' kay . project manager: right ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then we have to interface push buttons . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: scroll wheel , no . integrated scroll wheel , l_c_ display ? user interface: no . marketing: no , project manager: button . marketing: 'cause we did n't put the clock in it after all , right ? project manager: no . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh , button supplement special colour ? user interface: speci yes project manager: special form ? user interface: yes d we do have special form . marketing: yes . project manager: and special material , rubber , wood , yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . total seven point six whatever that means . industrial designer: uh , i think that 's the price . project manager: that 's the price . user interface: one two three four five six seven eight nine project manager: mm ? industrial designer: maybe it is it just n project manager: eight , eight point two . that 's user interface: nine points , project manager: hmm ? user interface: okay , yes . project manager: eight point two , right ? so , we looks like we are well within budget . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . i guess i should save this i suppose , huh ? marketing: yeah . project manager: oops . uh-huh huh huh . user interface: on the desktop . project manager: i just tried that . my documents , computer . industrial designer: ami . project manager: my compu ah oh here it is , yes . industrial designer: ami should for project manager: okay , fine . save . okay good , so that 's the good news . we gon na be popular . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: project manager: um . so that uh i think financing was pretty simple . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: now we would like to have a presentation by the marketing expert on production evaluation . marketing: okay , i 'll take my file down so you can bring it up . 'kay should be able to get it now . 'kay , why do n't you move just to the next slide right away . project manager: you wan na go to the next slide ? marketing: yeah right away . project manager: okay . marketing: okay , well uh obviously my method for uh s m the marketing of this thing is first to ask the big question , will it sell ? and i think we should show this prototype to people from various age and socio-economic groups and see about any fine tuning that maybe little things we have n't thought of . user interface: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: we ca n't accept every suggestion of course , but maybe we just need to get a few . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and show the the prototype to consumer research groups , we do n't s want somebody to suddenly come to us and tell us that this button is toxic and you know some child will swallow it and then we wo n't sell any . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm . marketing: so we have to get some input from those people . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and then after that we just have to go with our best intuition and you know we like it , we think it 's good , we 're gon na get behind it and sell it . um , next slide please . okay , now the things that i was thinking and th my wish list has really been realised in this prototype . i wanted the shape to be biomorphic , i did n't want anything with angles and all square , i wanted it to be comfy and roundy so we we 've got that . the size is small , the colour 's bright and warm which is what we wanted . we wanted the feel to be as soft as possible , we 'll have the soft buttons industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and the way this is shaped , even though it 's gon na be hard plastic , it feels good in your hand so that 's nice . and functionality i put last on my list because people are n't going to use it before they buy it . industrial designer: marketing: so paradoxically the other features , in other words , the look , the feel um and the shape , that 's what people are gon na get in the store . user interface: fee selling . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: they do n't have a television in the store , they ca n't play with it . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um so they 'll be our main selling points . so um th those have been fulfilled by your prototype and go ahead to the next slide please . okay , so um the shape um i think is a a one . that 's really , really excellent shape . the size is small um and th these points are in the importance for the , for the marketing , these are n't i in how i feel . i think that it 's i think that it 's plenty small enough to sell but i think we 're sort of right the scale is one to seven . i think we 're sort of right in the middle as far as c other competitors . user interface: okay . marketing: and our colour i think is great . the colours are bright and warm and we really do great job there . and given um the constraints that we had i think we got it as soft as possible . and then functionality um i think you did a really good job on functionality , obviously we could have ad added different functions but then we 'd disturb something else so i would say that we got to a five out of seven on on functionality . user interface: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so i think that basically we 've got a great product and we can get off and running with it . project manager: um i just realised one thing . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: in the financing there was no room for our voice recogniser . marketing: yes . user interface: yes . marketing: ah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i do n't know how we can evaluate that or how we can include that , too . marketing: well , um we had what , eight eight euros twenty as our cost ? project manager: eight , eight twenty , yes . industrial designer: eight twenty so marketing: and so we 've got we 've still got four euros to go to spend . industrial designer: we have um four euros , yeah project manager: i mean maximum we have another four point three euros i mean four thirty . marketing: mm-hmm . well um that 's project manager: but i mean we have no way of presenting that to management as you know as a f finished , as a finished product and saying okay with the voice recogniser that costs so much . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so um we just have to beware of that . i mean and know whether the four thirty will really cover that . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: well as we know in today 's technic technological world you can do just about anything at any price , the the the problem is quality . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so we 're just gon na have to settle for whatever quality that will buy us . industrial designer: yeah , user interface: yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and um it may not be the greatest quality but it may sell anyway . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , still . marketing: as we 've seen with so many of these kinds of products . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i 'm sorry to interrupt then but i just uh recog i just remembered that there was no that that was not um included uh that there was no room for any special features , okay ? industrial designer: included , yeah . hmm , user interface: yeah mm . industrial designer: hmm project manager: so to beware of that . you wan na go to this next slide , marketing expert ? marketing: uh , well i is n't this my last slide ? project manager: i dunno . marketing: maybe . project manager: yes it is . mm-hmm . marketing: go ahead . i think that was my last slide , yeah . um . mm okay . and i 'm supposed to present this scale on the whiteboard . um and we 're supposed to talk about those things as a team now , so if you put my last slide back up there . project manager: oh . marketing: i 'm sorry i 've um forgot to do that , um . project manager: why ? wh why you need that up ? marketing: hmm ? well because i ca n't remember what i put on there . okay . industrial designer: marketing: now i 'm supposed to see how long my leash is here . project manager: i think you can make it there . marketing: mm 'kay . you ready . so now we 're all supposed to say what we think . um okay so on shape i gave it a one . wait what would you ra uh one being good and seven being the worst . user interface: worse , okay . marketing: um what do you think the shape is ? user interface: one . marketing: one , okay , and be betsy ? project manager: yes i think uh shape is one . industrial designer: yeah , even my yeah , shape is one . marketing: okay , uh-huh one , okay . and how about on size ? on size project manager: you you gave it a four . marketing: i gave it a four , yeah , i feel it 's just average . project manager: um , i dunno . i think i would give it at least a two . marketing: okay . user interface: one . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , even i think it is one . it 's quite small . marketing: okay . okay user interface: marketing: you 're the designer , of course you wan na give it a one . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um and then how about how we doing on colour ? project manager: colour uh i marketing: colour , i gave it a one . project manager: one . marketing: i really like all those nice bright , warm colours . project manager: i i like the colours . one . user interface: one . yes . marketing: one . industrial designer: yeah , one . marketing: one , one , one , okay . and how about the feel ? taking into um consideration texture and comfort in the hand . project manager: uh , i think i would give it a two . marketing: okay , i gave it a three , two , user interface: i 'll give three . marketing: yeah ? three . industrial designer: uh maybe two , marketing: two , okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and the next is functionality where i i admit i was a little hard on our team here , but project manager: well it 's also you ca n't really try it out uh the other things you have have more is are more tangible so from that point of view marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: but um i 'll give it a three . marketing: okay . user interface: two . marketing: two , okay . industrial designer: uh three , mm-hmm . marketing: three ? okay . well , um . it looks like we 've got got ourselves a pretty good product . um the functionality 's the only place where maybe we have to think about m m maybe , heaven forbid , having another meeting . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but um otherwise i think we 're we 're ready to go to go with this product . anybody else have any other comments or any other things that we feel we should evaluate ? project manager: uh . here is what we looking at uh satisfaction on for example room for creativity . um . is there more room for creativity or are we absolutely happy ? user interface: we can always improve , yes . industrial designer: maybe we can yeah , include some more buttons and uh um user interface: yes , features . industrial designer: yeah features . we can make the buttons few buttons smaller . uh i think they are quite big , so i think i i mean we can just have small buttons and more buttons in that case . if we want to have more features than that . marketing: mm-hmm . well then again if we 're gon na um do the speech recognition thing we 're gon there gon na be some buttons that are gon na have to be added for that for the recording of the the speech . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , definitely . user interface: yes . voices . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so that that 's where we 're gon na have to do maybe we can eliminate one of the mute buttons , instead of having two mute buttons . industrial designer: yeah , definitely , yeah , two mu mute buttons . user interface: yes . yes . marketing: and um then maybe we can do something with the um the volume control . maybe we can put that all on one button . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: um and a couple of other th maybe comp uh consolidate some of the usage an and see what we can do with that . project manager: y um al always bearing in mind that right now we are of course well within the budget industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and maybe project manager: and that we still you know we probably ca n't , with this particular item , we probably ca n't just uh add a whole lot of more things . marketing: mm-hmm . no . project manager: uh um we need uh you know we need to leave space money-wise for the voice recogniser . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so th the question really is how do we feel with the project process ? uh , um are we happy with the creativity that has passed here or we 're not happy with the new product we created or that was created ? uh i think personally i think uh i 'm pretty happy . marketing: i 'm pretty happy with it too , yeah um , project manager: um an industrial designer: even i 'm happy . marketing: it 's something i think i can market . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and then the next question is are we happy with the leadership of this project ? uh marketing: i think you 've done a good job , miss leader . user interface: yes , yes you 've done a good job . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , definitely . project manager: and i think team work i think was very very good , i think we really industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah i d i do too i think we worked well together as a team , yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i think we are we happy with the means we used ? we used whiteboard , we did n't use digital p well digital pens i guess are these things . marketing: yeah maybe we could 've used the whiteboard a little bit more , yeah , user interface: whiteboard more , yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah , probably . marketing: we did n't use that enough . project manager: yes , we could . uh , it 's maybe not in the best position in the room um you know like sometimes it 's positioned so that it 's much better visible for everybody and i think from that point of view we sort of ignored it a little bit . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: and we used the slide because it was better positioned . project manager: yes , i think so , i think absolutely , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: no . marketing: mm i think that 's true mm-hmm . project manager: and fortunately we all had slides presentation which made it a little easier . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um did we new did we find new ideas ? user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think we did . industrial designer: yeah , many . marketing: i think we were we were very good , yeah , mm . project manager: i think we we did , uh in more than one respect and uh so i think we did very well here . marketing: mm-hmm . okay . project manager: are the costs within budget ? yes , yes . uh is the project evaluated ? yes . marketing: yes , yes . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um then celebration . marketing: celebration . user interface: cel celebration yes , yes . industrial designer: ah . marketing: today we have apple juice and after we sell m million of 'em we have champagne . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: so i i thank you all very much . um , i think this was very good and um industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think we did come up with a new product that 's uh feasible . feasible from the production point of view and feasible from a marketing point of view . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: so , thank you . marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: thank you . industrial designer: thank you very much . marketing: okay . watch i i have my cord behind you here . user interface: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: i always get it on here , but getting it off is industrial designer: do we do we have some time left ? uh you have user interface: they say it 's forty minutes . project manager: ah yes we have time later marketing: but we we were told we could end the final meeting at any time , whenever we felt we were finished . project manager: but we do n't user interface: okay . industrial designer: oh , alright . marketing: it 'll take me the rest of the time to get my microphone out from my necklace . oh , there we go .

the main function of the remote would be sending messages to the tv . for the interface , it should have nine channel buttons , a next button , volume buttons , subtitle buttons and switches to control features , colour contrast , sharpness etc . interface designer said that looks would be very important for the remote so the remote should be child-friendly with few buttons and could be colourful with star-shaped or other shaped buttons . an oversized remote was presented but was challenged by the team . speech recognition was a feature that interface designer wanted to include .

summarize the recap of the last meeting regarding the presentation by industrial designer . </s> project manager: well hi everyone again . user interface: hello . industrial designer: hello . marketing: hello project manager: um like before we uh i have to redo the meetings from n th the minutes from the last meeting marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and so here we go . uh it was discussed in the last meeting uh which was opened by the presentation from the interface um designer that uh looks would be very important on this new remote user interface: designer . marketing: project manager: and um it is to send messages of course to the tv . it should have nine channel buttons , a next button , volume buttons , subtitle buttons , switch to control features , colour contrast , sharpness etcetera . it should have a memory switch , a mute button in case the telephone rings or something . uh speech recognition is one of her very f favourite personal uh features she would like see d d to be integrated in this um in this new remote . um . should be child friendly design with few buttons , colourful maybe with s star shaped or other shaped buttons . um she uh presented also an oversized remote which she guarantees nobody will ever be able to lose . user interface: project manager: um marketing: and she was challenged on that point project manager: that 's right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: project manager: but uh her very f personal favourite really she , she would very much like to see a speech recogniser integrated in this remote . the industrial designer um presented her uh thoughts on the issue . she would like a special case made out of plastic that is very strong , not using any harmful materials , should be recyclable and should be colourful . should have an integrated circuit board that 's highly sophisticated and temperature resistant . she would like to see a timer and or alarm facility integrated . uh technically this thing would also have a resistor and a capacitor , diode transistor , resonator , and if possible a rechargeable battery . uh and of course a circuit board . and how it would works , you press the button , the chip is morse morse code related relays the uh to the generat to the generator amplification and uh the circuit board is very inexpensive to build and so she thinks this is a great feature uh to to to consider . marketing: okay . project manager: she would like uh this whole thing should be push buttons with a simple chip uh scrolling method is more expensive and not that practical anymore . should be battery operated and of course she would have the special cases . the marketing expert uh who has to finally come up with to to to market this product has been watching the competition , has done some research on the internet and also has used h her personal observations to come up with the fact that such a remote sh should be small , easy to use and it should be eye catching . from her point of view of course one of the most important facts is that we should get to market before our competition does . to do that uh maybe one or two features should be developed on which we could dwell on or in other words on which our campaign could be built on . too many new features or too many points would only confuse matter . so we prefer to have one or two features that can be really uh driven home . um it should have a fruit and vegetable design and should have a soft feel . she feels that 's really what people want today . and the decision that we took last time was that uh the special feature we would like to see is a speech recogniser , the energy should be battery uh should be on a chip , should be trendy design , compact and strong , and should have buttons . and that concludes the presentation from the last minutes from the last meeting . now uh we are ready for the presentation of the prototype . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: just the look like , the button part i 'll explain . industrial designer: yeah . uh so this is our what uh we have made . this is a model of the remote control which we are going to build . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh this is us in a snail shape so uh it it is attractive marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and it 's it 's blue in colour uh bright and uh it has yellow buttons and all the different colour buttons marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so it is a uh uh a looks-wise it is beautiful . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh and also compact in shape . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh um and also i it it will be easily fit into into the hands and you can access all the buttons easily . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . good . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: industrial designer: oops , sorry . marketing: you used to have all the buttons user interface: industrial designer: um yeah and um uh the material which we are going to use for the case is uh plastic and uh w which which is s strong um uh and also uh for the um the material is plastic and uh for the buttons it is uh s soft rubber um and als marketing: oh that 's good , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: no , that 's nice and friendly . industrial designer: yeah because uh uh you 'll be touching the buttons more so it is soft when you touch it . marketing: mm-hmm . mm . project manager: mm-hmm , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then um uh for the for the led , for the light emitting diode it is a fluorescent green marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and it 's a a it is a bulb like an ordinary infrared . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and and the button button 's part uh will be explained by f francina . user interface: okay . marketing: okay . user interface: now the um we decided upon including certain features on our remote . now these features includes the s um signal emitting uh signal it 's the led or l_e_d_ the infrared . project manager: mm-hmm , marketing: yeah , okay , mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: now uh we have included the switch on and off button . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: now we have included another feature that is the mute button marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: on the side of the model . then we have included one to nine buttons marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: for controlling the programmes the different channels . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we have also included two buttons for increasing or decreasing the volume . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and we have also included two buttons for scrolling up and scrolling down the programme channels . now our our model also contains a button which is called as the menu button . marketing: mm . project manager: what kind of button ? user interface: menu button . project manager: menu ? uh menu th menu , uh one one . user interface: yes , menu marketing: menu button . user interface: at the centre marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we have included a button which is fluorescent green colour and this is the menu button which will control the colour , sharpness , brightness marketing: mm-hmm . of the screen . mm , mm-hmm . user interface: of this uh picture . we have also included a button which is called as the swapping button . now this is uh a special , special feature which we have included . now this button is an elongated shaped button and this is slightly flexible so if it is turned towards the right it will take to the previous channel , if it is turned towards the right it will take to the next channel . it will take the user to the previous and the next channel so this is a swapping button . marketing: the next channel in the numeric pattern , or user interface: no , swapping is if if example you 're you 're watching the second channel and then you go to the tenth channel and if you want to go back to the second channel you can swap , this button . marketing: yeah , mm-hmm . mm . user interface: yes . marketing: okay , okay . user interface: and at the end , it this remote has inbuilt voice recogniser which c which will recognise the user 's voice and then it 'll act accordingly . project manager: okay . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: so this is our proposed model . marketing: okay . user interface: now the marketing expert has to marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: tell , yeah . user interface: give her suggestion whether it 'll be sellable or it 'll be cost effective . industrial designer: marketing: okay , well um what what i really like a lot about it is that you can reach the whole thing with one thumb , user interface: yes , yes . marketing: that you can really hold it in one h you do n't need two hands industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and it 's easily reachable even for somebody with a small hand , yeah ? project manager: yes the buttons are all raised , right ? marketing: the buttons are all raised project manager: are raised , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: and if you hold it in the centre of your hand you can even reach it over here so you do n't have to turn it around , turn it upside down , move it up , up and down , project manager: right . or have two hands to operate it , yeah . marketing: i really like that . user interface: mm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: you really did a good job on that , my little designers . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um and um i like the idea that the on-off button is in a really prominent place . that 's that 's a really good good thing . project manager: yes , and it sort of sticks up so that you really marketing: yeah , that 's great . project manager: you do n't have to g first go like oh yeah here it 's on and yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: abs okay . marketing: the colour 's very attractive . um the um these buttons uh around here are the mute user interface: no , these the front buttons which are here , are the mute buttons . marketing: and these mm-hmm on both sides they 're mute ? user interface: yes , yes . marketing: so you can push either one ? user interface: yes . marketing: okay . project manager: so if you 're left-handed or right-handed it does n't matter . marketing: and this brings the menu up on the screen ? user interface: pardon me ? this is the menu yes , yes . marketing: this brings the menu up on the screen and the orange ones are user interface: a the the these these two are th to increase or decrease the volumes , marketing: okay . user interface: and these two are to uh scroll the programme channels . marketing: f f okay . user interface: scroll up or scroll down the channels . marketing: right , very good . uh it looks mm looks like something i can sell . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: okay and now i 'm supposed to project manager: well , i have one question marketing: yeah . project manager: uh will there be anything written on the buttons , like that people know , or they have to learn that from a piece of paper which button does what ? user interface: yes , it will have uh these buttons will have the numbers and all the rest of the buttons will have symbols . industrial designer: ah . yeah , definitely . project manager: will have symbols so that that that the user really knows you know and does n't have to first learn it user interface: yes , which can be easily recognised . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: good point because we need the symbols 'cause we 're going into an international market we ca n't have anything that 's language dependent . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah of course , and also user interface: yes . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: yeah . but anyway it would ha i i i it has to have some kind of of symbols , text or something so that people kn industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah we can text . marketing: symbols on it . mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . industrial designer: text that we can have on the case itself , project manager: that 's right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: we can it will be printed on the case and symbols as well as the buttons . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , yeah just wanted make sure of that mm-hmm . user interface: and and one more feature is we we have a holder for this remote which is an oyster shape . marketing: mm , 'kay , mm . mm-hmm . user interface: a shell shape . marketing: for the snail , yeah , mm-hmm , project manager: right , mm-hmm . user interface: yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah . so it is marketing: we have the snail shell . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yes , snail shell . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: he goes right back into his shell . industrial designer: yeah shell . project manager: right . user interface: yes . marketing: well you know i think we could do something really funny with this too because the snail is known to be slow industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and we could have some sort of little comic effect on our marketing about how this is a rapid snail or something like that user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm . user interface: y yes industrial designer: yeah , of course , yeah . marketing: you know that would , that would really work . project manager: now what , what are our special features for the marketing ? marketing: so project manager: that 's really the voice recognition that 's really unusual marketing: i think voice recognition is our big selling point industrial designer: mm . mm-hmm . marketing: 'cause nobody else seems to have that in in this price range . industrial designer: mm . project manager: and then , and then the other thing would basically be sh shape or practicality of use . marketing: yep project manager: you know . marketing: uh well i think that everybody 's gon na say their remote control is practical . i think we have to , we have to dwell on on on the appearance . project manager: colours . mm-hmm . marketing: we 're really gon na have the be the project manager: cutest . marketing: cutest remote control on the block . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm . marketing: so i think we have to play with the image , play with the snail image um play with the visual and then the voice recognition . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: i think those are the two things to push . the look and the voice recognition . they 're gon na be our two selling points . project manager: okay , now uh having said that marketing: i 'm supposed to make a little presentation , are n't i ? project manager: no , now this was our evaluation criteria which we uh just have done . marketing: okay . project manager: now we 're gon na talk about financing . marketing: ah , but in my instructions i think it said i was supposed to go to the board and do something . project manager: well , there is a production evaluation . marketing: no ? project manager: is that you ? marketing: yeah , that 's me . project manager: but that 's after the financing . marketing: oh , okay . project manager: see ? fi see ? marketing: sorry , sorry . mm-mm . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: um . okay , we had looks and voice recognition . okay now on the financing we bring up the mm there it is . okay uh energy source we say that 's battery , right ? industrial designer: mm . marketing: that 's right . project manager: okay , now . so we i guess we use one . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: what ? t cell or chart you are trying to change is protected . well , that 's nice . she told me i could just ch change it here and then it would it does n't work . hmm . marketing: can you just fill it in in the yellow boxes ? or project manager: oh , okay yeah , okay , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: let 's see . okay , one , okay . user interface: yes . project manager: oh go away . um kinetic source so that 's in the energy source that 's all we need . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: uh electronics , simple chip on print ? is that 's what we 're using ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: one of those ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: come on . okay , one . uh regular chip on print . no . that 's all we need , the one industrial designer: no . yeah . project manager: case , uncurved flat , single curved , double curved . marketing: well . industrial designer: this is a user interface: single curve ? mm . marketing: i guess it 's double curved . project manager: double curved ? one of those ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: case materi s supplements . plastic we said , right ? user interface: plastic . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh wood , rubber ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: rubber , because we 're gon na have the soft buttons . project manager: uh but , yes but industrial designer: i think uh that is uh f for rubbers that is uh yeah case material . project manager: that 's just for the case material , user interface: is this for the case ? yes . project manager: so special colours though , we having that , marketing: oh okay , the mm-hmm , mm ' kay . project manager: right ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then we have to interface push buttons . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: scroll wheel , no . integrated scroll wheel , l_c_ display ? user interface: no . marketing: no , project manager: button . marketing: 'cause we did n't put the clock in it after all , right ? project manager: no . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh , button supplement special colour ? user interface: speci yes project manager: special form ? user interface: yes d we do have special form . marketing: yes . project manager: and special material , rubber , wood , yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . total seven point six whatever that means . industrial designer: uh , i think that 's the price . project manager: that 's the price . user interface: one two three four five six seven eight nine project manager: mm ? industrial designer: maybe it is it just n project manager: eight , eight point two . that 's user interface: nine points , project manager: hmm ? user interface: okay , yes . project manager: eight point two , right ? so , we looks like we are well within budget . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . i guess i should save this i suppose , huh ? marketing: yeah . project manager: oops . uh-huh huh huh . user interface: on the desktop . project manager: i just tried that . my documents , computer . industrial designer: ami . project manager: my compu ah oh here it is , yes . industrial designer: ami should for project manager: okay , fine . save . okay good , so that 's the good news . we gon na be popular . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: project manager: um . so that uh i think financing was pretty simple . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: now we would like to have a presentation by the marketing expert on production evaluation . marketing: okay , i 'll take my file down so you can bring it up . 'kay should be able to get it now . 'kay , why do n't you move just to the next slide right away . project manager: you wan na go to the next slide ? marketing: yeah right away . project manager: okay . marketing: okay , well uh obviously my method for uh s m the marketing of this thing is first to ask the big question , will it sell ? and i think we should show this prototype to people from various age and socio-economic groups and see about any fine tuning that maybe little things we have n't thought of . user interface: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: we ca n't accept every suggestion of course , but maybe we just need to get a few . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and show the the prototype to consumer research groups , we do n't s want somebody to suddenly come to us and tell us that this button is toxic and you know some child will swallow it and then we wo n't sell any . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm . marketing: so we have to get some input from those people . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and then after that we just have to go with our best intuition and you know we like it , we think it 's good , we 're gon na get behind it and sell it . um , next slide please . okay , now the things that i was thinking and th my wish list has really been realised in this prototype . i wanted the shape to be biomorphic , i did n't want anything with angles and all square , i wanted it to be comfy and roundy so we we 've got that . the size is small , the colour 's bright and warm which is what we wanted . we wanted the feel to be as soft as possible , we 'll have the soft buttons industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and the way this is shaped , even though it 's gon na be hard plastic , it feels good in your hand so that 's nice . and functionality i put last on my list because people are n't going to use it before they buy it . industrial designer: marketing: so paradoxically the other features , in other words , the look , the feel um and the shape , that 's what people are gon na get in the store . user interface: fee selling . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: they do n't have a television in the store , they ca n't play with it . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um so they 'll be our main selling points . so um th those have been fulfilled by your prototype and go ahead to the next slide please . okay , so um the shape um i think is a a one . that 's really , really excellent shape . the size is small um and th these points are in the importance for the , for the marketing , these are n't i in how i feel . i think that it 's i think that it 's plenty small enough to sell but i think we 're sort of right the scale is one to seven . i think we 're sort of right in the middle as far as c other competitors . user interface: okay . marketing: and our colour i think is great . the colours are bright and warm and we really do great job there . and given um the constraints that we had i think we got it as soft as possible . and then functionality um i think you did a really good job on functionality , obviously we could have ad added different functions but then we 'd disturb something else so i would say that we got to a five out of seven on on functionality . user interface: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so i think that basically we 've got a great product and we can get off and running with it . project manager: um i just realised one thing . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: in the financing there was no room for our voice recogniser . marketing: yes . user interface: yes . marketing: ah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i do n't know how we can evaluate that or how we can include that , too . marketing: well , um we had what , eight eight euros twenty as our cost ? project manager: eight , eight twenty , yes . industrial designer: eight twenty so marketing: and so we 've got we 've still got four euros to go to spend . industrial designer: we have um four euros , yeah project manager: i mean maximum we have another four point three euros i mean four thirty . marketing: mm-hmm . well um that 's project manager: but i mean we have no way of presenting that to management as you know as a f finished , as a finished product and saying okay with the voice recogniser that costs so much . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so um we just have to beware of that . i mean and know whether the four thirty will really cover that . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: well as we know in today 's technic technological world you can do just about anything at any price , the the the problem is quality . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so we 're just gon na have to settle for whatever quality that will buy us . industrial designer: yeah , user interface: yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and um it may not be the greatest quality but it may sell anyway . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , still . marketing: as we 've seen with so many of these kinds of products . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i 'm sorry to interrupt then but i just uh recog i just remembered that there was no that that was not um included uh that there was no room for any special features , okay ? industrial designer: included , yeah . hmm , user interface: yeah mm . industrial designer: hmm project manager: so to beware of that . you wan na go to this next slide , marketing expert ? marketing: uh , well i is n't this my last slide ? project manager: i dunno . marketing: maybe . project manager: yes it is . mm-hmm . marketing: go ahead . i think that was my last slide , yeah . um . mm okay . and i 'm supposed to present this scale on the whiteboard . um and we 're supposed to talk about those things as a team now , so if you put my last slide back up there . project manager: oh . marketing: i 'm sorry i 've um forgot to do that , um . project manager: why ? wh why you need that up ? marketing: hmm ? well because i ca n't remember what i put on there . okay . industrial designer: marketing: now i 'm supposed to see how long my leash is here . project manager: i think you can make it there . marketing: mm 'kay . you ready . so now we 're all supposed to say what we think . um okay so on shape i gave it a one . wait what would you ra uh one being good and seven being the worst . user interface: worse , okay . marketing: um what do you think the shape is ? user interface: one . marketing: one , okay , and be betsy ? project manager: yes i think uh shape is one . industrial designer: yeah , even my yeah , shape is one . marketing: okay , uh-huh one , okay . and how about on size ? on size project manager: you you gave it a four . marketing: i gave it a four , yeah , i feel it 's just average . project manager: um , i dunno . i think i would give it at least a two . marketing: okay . user interface: one . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , even i think it is one . it 's quite small . marketing: okay . okay user interface: marketing: you 're the designer , of course you wan na give it a one . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um and then how about how we doing on colour ? project manager: colour uh i marketing: colour , i gave it a one . project manager: one . marketing: i really like all those nice bright , warm colours . project manager: i i like the colours . one . user interface: one . yes . marketing: one . industrial designer: yeah , one . marketing: one , one , one , okay . and how about the feel ? taking into um consideration texture and comfort in the hand . project manager: uh , i think i would give it a two . marketing: okay , i gave it a three , two , user interface: i 'll give three . marketing: yeah ? three . industrial designer: uh maybe two , marketing: two , okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and the next is functionality where i i admit i was a little hard on our team here , but project manager: well it 's also you ca n't really try it out uh the other things you have have more is are more tangible so from that point of view marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: but um i 'll give it a three . marketing: okay . user interface: two . marketing: two , okay . industrial designer: uh three , mm-hmm . marketing: three ? okay . well , um . it looks like we 've got got ourselves a pretty good product . um the functionality 's the only place where maybe we have to think about m m maybe , heaven forbid , having another meeting . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but um otherwise i think we 're we 're ready to go to go with this product . anybody else have any other comments or any other things that we feel we should evaluate ? project manager: uh . here is what we looking at uh satisfaction on for example room for creativity . um . is there more room for creativity or are we absolutely happy ? user interface: we can always improve , yes . industrial designer: maybe we can yeah , include some more buttons and uh um user interface: yes , features . industrial designer: yeah features . we can make the buttons few buttons smaller . uh i think they are quite big , so i think i i mean we can just have small buttons and more buttons in that case . if we want to have more features than that . marketing: mm-hmm . well then again if we 're gon na um do the speech recognition thing we 're gon there gon na be some buttons that are gon na have to be added for that for the recording of the the speech . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , definitely . user interface: yes . voices . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so that that 's where we 're gon na have to do maybe we can eliminate one of the mute buttons , instead of having two mute buttons . industrial designer: yeah , definitely , yeah , two mu mute buttons . user interface: yes . yes . marketing: and um then maybe we can do something with the um the volume control . maybe we can put that all on one button . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: um and a couple of other th maybe comp uh consolidate some of the usage an and see what we can do with that . project manager: y um al always bearing in mind that right now we are of course well within the budget industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and maybe project manager: and that we still you know we probably ca n't , with this particular item , we probably ca n't just uh add a whole lot of more things . marketing: mm-hmm . no . project manager: uh um we need uh you know we need to leave space money-wise for the voice recogniser . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so th the question really is how do we feel with the project process ? uh , um are we happy with the creativity that has passed here or we 're not happy with the new product we created or that was created ? uh i think personally i think uh i 'm pretty happy . marketing: i 'm pretty happy with it too , yeah um , project manager: um an industrial designer: even i 'm happy . marketing: it 's something i think i can market . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and then the next question is are we happy with the leadership of this project ? uh marketing: i think you 've done a good job , miss leader . user interface: yes , yes you 've done a good job . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , definitely . project manager: and i think team work i think was very very good , i think we really industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah i d i do too i think we worked well together as a team , yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i think we are we happy with the means we used ? we used whiteboard , we did n't use digital p well digital pens i guess are these things . marketing: yeah maybe we could 've used the whiteboard a little bit more , yeah , user interface: whiteboard more , yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah , probably . marketing: we did n't use that enough . project manager: yes , we could . uh , it 's maybe not in the best position in the room um you know like sometimes it 's positioned so that it 's much better visible for everybody and i think from that point of view we sort of ignored it a little bit . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: and we used the slide because it was better positioned . project manager: yes , i think so , i think absolutely , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: no . marketing: mm i think that 's true mm-hmm . project manager: and fortunately we all had slides presentation which made it a little easier . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um did we new did we find new ideas ? user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think we did . industrial designer: yeah , many . marketing: i think we were we were very good , yeah , mm . project manager: i think we we did , uh in more than one respect and uh so i think we did very well here . marketing: mm-hmm . okay . project manager: are the costs within budget ? yes , yes . uh is the project evaluated ? yes . marketing: yes , yes . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um then celebration . marketing: celebration . user interface: cel celebration yes , yes . industrial designer: ah . marketing: today we have apple juice and after we sell m million of 'em we have champagne . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: so i i thank you all very much . um , i think this was very good and um industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think we did come up with a new product that 's uh feasible . feasible from the production point of view and feasible from a marketing point of view . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: so , thank you . marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: thank you . industrial designer: thank you very much . marketing: okay . watch i i have my cord behind you here . user interface: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: i always get it on here , but getting it off is industrial designer: do we do we have some time left ? uh you have user interface: they say it 's forty minutes . project manager: ah yes we have time later marketing: but we we were told we could end the final meeting at any time , whenever we felt we were finished . project manager: but we do n't user interface: okay . industrial designer: oh , alright . marketing: it 'll take me the rest of the time to get my microphone out from my necklace . oh , there we go .

making a recyclable and colourful case out of plastic that was strong without using harmful materials was proposed . for the components , there would be a resistor , a capacitor , a diode transistor , resonator , and if possible , a rechargeable battery . also , it should have an integrated circuit board that was highly sophisticated , temperature resistant and inexpensive . furthermore , it was hoped that there would be a timer or alarm . for the working design , morse code would be relayed to the generator for amplification after buttons were pressed . the team thought push buttons were better than scroll wheel as the former was more practical and cheap .

summarize the recap of the last meeting regarding the presentation by marketing . </s> project manager: well hi everyone again . user interface: hello . industrial designer: hello . marketing: hello project manager: um like before we uh i have to redo the meetings from n th the minutes from the last meeting marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and so here we go . uh it was discussed in the last meeting uh which was opened by the presentation from the interface um designer that uh looks would be very important on this new remote user interface: designer . marketing: project manager: and um it is to send messages of course to the tv . it should have nine channel buttons , a next button , volume buttons , subtitle buttons , switch to control features , colour contrast , sharpness etcetera . it should have a memory switch , a mute button in case the telephone rings or something . uh speech recognition is one of her very f favourite personal uh features she would like see d d to be integrated in this um in this new remote . um . should be child friendly design with few buttons , colourful maybe with s star shaped or other shaped buttons . um she uh presented also an oversized remote which she guarantees nobody will ever be able to lose . user interface: project manager: um marketing: and she was challenged on that point project manager: that 's right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: project manager: but uh her very f personal favourite really she , she would very much like to see a speech recogniser integrated in this remote . the industrial designer um presented her uh thoughts on the issue . she would like a special case made out of plastic that is very strong , not using any harmful materials , should be recyclable and should be colourful . should have an integrated circuit board that 's highly sophisticated and temperature resistant . she would like to see a timer and or alarm facility integrated . uh technically this thing would also have a resistor and a capacitor , diode transistor , resonator , and if possible a rechargeable battery . uh and of course a circuit board . and how it would works , you press the button , the chip is morse morse code related relays the uh to the generat to the generator amplification and uh the circuit board is very inexpensive to build and so she thinks this is a great feature uh to to to consider . marketing: okay . project manager: she would like uh this whole thing should be push buttons with a simple chip uh scrolling method is more expensive and not that practical anymore . should be battery operated and of course she would have the special cases . the marketing expert uh who has to finally come up with to to to market this product has been watching the competition , has done some research on the internet and also has used h her personal observations to come up with the fact that such a remote sh should be small , easy to use and it should be eye catching . from her point of view of course one of the most important facts is that we should get to market before our competition does . to do that uh maybe one or two features should be developed on which we could dwell on or in other words on which our campaign could be built on . too many new features or too many points would only confuse matter . so we prefer to have one or two features that can be really uh driven home . um it should have a fruit and vegetable design and should have a soft feel . she feels that 's really what people want today . and the decision that we took last time was that uh the special feature we would like to see is a speech recogniser , the energy should be battery uh should be on a chip , should be trendy design , compact and strong , and should have buttons . and that concludes the presentation from the last minutes from the last meeting . now uh we are ready for the presentation of the prototype . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: just the look like , the button part i 'll explain . industrial designer: yeah . uh so this is our what uh we have made . this is a model of the remote control which we are going to build . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh this is us in a snail shape so uh it it is attractive marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and it 's it 's blue in colour uh bright and uh it has yellow buttons and all the different colour buttons marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so it is a uh uh a looks-wise it is beautiful . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh and also compact in shape . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh um and also i it it will be easily fit into into the hands and you can access all the buttons easily . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . good . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: industrial designer: oops , sorry . marketing: you used to have all the buttons user interface: industrial designer: um yeah and um uh the material which we are going to use for the case is uh plastic and uh w which which is s strong um uh and also uh for the um the material is plastic and uh for the buttons it is uh s soft rubber um and als marketing: oh that 's good , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: no , that 's nice and friendly . industrial designer: yeah because uh uh you 'll be touching the buttons more so it is soft when you touch it . marketing: mm-hmm . mm . project manager: mm-hmm , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then um uh for the for the led , for the light emitting diode it is a fluorescent green marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and it 's a a it is a bulb like an ordinary infrared . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and and the button button 's part uh will be explained by f francina . user interface: okay . marketing: okay . user interface: now the um we decided upon including certain features on our remote . now these features includes the s um signal emitting uh signal it 's the led or l_e_d_ the infrared . project manager: mm-hmm , marketing: yeah , okay , mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: now uh we have included the switch on and off button . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: now we have included another feature that is the mute button marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: on the side of the model . then we have included one to nine buttons marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: for controlling the programmes the different channels . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we have also included two buttons for increasing or decreasing the volume . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and we have also included two buttons for scrolling up and scrolling down the programme channels . now our our model also contains a button which is called as the menu button . marketing: mm . project manager: what kind of button ? user interface: menu button . project manager: menu ? uh menu th menu , uh one one . user interface: yes , menu marketing: menu button . user interface: at the centre marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we have included a button which is fluorescent green colour and this is the menu button which will control the colour , sharpness , brightness marketing: mm-hmm . of the screen . mm , mm-hmm . user interface: of this uh picture . we have also included a button which is called as the swapping button . now this is uh a special , special feature which we have included . now this button is an elongated shaped button and this is slightly flexible so if it is turned towards the right it will take to the previous channel , if it is turned towards the right it will take to the next channel . it will take the user to the previous and the next channel so this is a swapping button . marketing: the next channel in the numeric pattern , or user interface: no , swapping is if if example you 're you 're watching the second channel and then you go to the tenth channel and if you want to go back to the second channel you can swap , this button . marketing: yeah , mm-hmm . mm . user interface: yes . marketing: okay , okay . user interface: and at the end , it this remote has inbuilt voice recogniser which c which will recognise the user 's voice and then it 'll act accordingly . project manager: okay . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: so this is our proposed model . marketing: okay . user interface: now the marketing expert has to marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: tell , yeah . user interface: give her suggestion whether it 'll be sellable or it 'll be cost effective . industrial designer: marketing: okay , well um what what i really like a lot about it is that you can reach the whole thing with one thumb , user interface: yes , yes . marketing: that you can really hold it in one h you do n't need two hands industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and it 's easily reachable even for somebody with a small hand , yeah ? project manager: yes the buttons are all raised , right ? marketing: the buttons are all raised project manager: are raised , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: and if you hold it in the centre of your hand you can even reach it over here so you do n't have to turn it around , turn it upside down , move it up , up and down , project manager: right . or have two hands to operate it , yeah . marketing: i really like that . user interface: mm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: you really did a good job on that , my little designers . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um and um i like the idea that the on-off button is in a really prominent place . that 's that 's a really good good thing . project manager: yes , and it sort of sticks up so that you really marketing: yeah , that 's great . project manager: you do n't have to g first go like oh yeah here it 's on and yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: abs okay . marketing: the colour 's very attractive . um the um these buttons uh around here are the mute user interface: no , these the front buttons which are here , are the mute buttons . marketing: and these mm-hmm on both sides they 're mute ? user interface: yes , yes . marketing: so you can push either one ? user interface: yes . marketing: okay . project manager: so if you 're left-handed or right-handed it does n't matter . marketing: and this brings the menu up on the screen ? user interface: pardon me ? this is the menu yes , yes . marketing: this brings the menu up on the screen and the orange ones are user interface: a the the these these two are th to increase or decrease the volumes , marketing: okay . user interface: and these two are to uh scroll the programme channels . marketing: f f okay . user interface: scroll up or scroll down the channels . marketing: right , very good . uh it looks mm looks like something i can sell . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: okay and now i 'm supposed to project manager: well , i have one question marketing: yeah . project manager: uh will there be anything written on the buttons , like that people know , or they have to learn that from a piece of paper which button does what ? user interface: yes , it will have uh these buttons will have the numbers and all the rest of the buttons will have symbols . industrial designer: ah . yeah , definitely . project manager: will have symbols so that that that the user really knows you know and does n't have to first learn it user interface: yes , which can be easily recognised . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: good point because we need the symbols 'cause we 're going into an international market we ca n't have anything that 's language dependent . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah of course , and also user interface: yes . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: yeah . but anyway it would ha i i i it has to have some kind of of symbols , text or something so that people kn industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah we can text . marketing: symbols on it . mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . industrial designer: text that we can have on the case itself , project manager: that 's right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: we can it will be printed on the case and symbols as well as the buttons . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , yeah just wanted make sure of that mm-hmm . user interface: and and one more feature is we we have a holder for this remote which is an oyster shape . marketing: mm , 'kay , mm . mm-hmm . user interface: a shell shape . marketing: for the snail , yeah , mm-hmm , project manager: right , mm-hmm . user interface: yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah . so it is marketing: we have the snail shell . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yes , snail shell . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: he goes right back into his shell . industrial designer: yeah shell . project manager: right . user interface: yes . marketing: well you know i think we could do something really funny with this too because the snail is known to be slow industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and we could have some sort of little comic effect on our marketing about how this is a rapid snail or something like that user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm . user interface: y yes industrial designer: yeah , of course , yeah . marketing: you know that would , that would really work . project manager: now what , what are our special features for the marketing ? marketing: so project manager: that 's really the voice recognition that 's really unusual marketing: i think voice recognition is our big selling point industrial designer: mm . mm-hmm . marketing: 'cause nobody else seems to have that in in this price range . industrial designer: mm . project manager: and then , and then the other thing would basically be sh shape or practicality of use . marketing: yep project manager: you know . marketing: uh well i think that everybody 's gon na say their remote control is practical . i think we have to , we have to dwell on on on the appearance . project manager: colours . mm-hmm . marketing: we 're really gon na have the be the project manager: cutest . marketing: cutest remote control on the block . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm . marketing: so i think we have to play with the image , play with the snail image um play with the visual and then the voice recognition . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: i think those are the two things to push . the look and the voice recognition . they 're gon na be our two selling points . project manager: okay , now uh having said that marketing: i 'm supposed to make a little presentation , are n't i ? project manager: no , now this was our evaluation criteria which we uh just have done . marketing: okay . project manager: now we 're gon na talk about financing . marketing: ah , but in my instructions i think it said i was supposed to go to the board and do something . project manager: well , there is a production evaluation . marketing: no ? project manager: is that you ? marketing: yeah , that 's me . project manager: but that 's after the financing . marketing: oh , okay . project manager: see ? fi see ? marketing: sorry , sorry . mm-mm . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: um . okay , we had looks and voice recognition . okay now on the financing we bring up the mm there it is . okay uh energy source we say that 's battery , right ? industrial designer: mm . marketing: that 's right . project manager: okay , now . so we i guess we use one . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: what ? t cell or chart you are trying to change is protected . well , that 's nice . she told me i could just ch change it here and then it would it does n't work . hmm . marketing: can you just fill it in in the yellow boxes ? or project manager: oh , okay yeah , okay , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: let 's see . okay , one , okay . user interface: yes . project manager: oh go away . um kinetic source so that 's in the energy source that 's all we need . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: uh electronics , simple chip on print ? is that 's what we 're using ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: one of those ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: come on . okay , one . uh regular chip on print . no . that 's all we need , the one industrial designer: no . yeah . project manager: case , uncurved flat , single curved , double curved . marketing: well . industrial designer: this is a user interface: single curve ? mm . marketing: i guess it 's double curved . project manager: double curved ? one of those ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: case materi s supplements . plastic we said , right ? user interface: plastic . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh wood , rubber ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: rubber , because we 're gon na have the soft buttons . project manager: uh but , yes but industrial designer: i think uh that is uh f for rubbers that is uh yeah case material . project manager: that 's just for the case material , user interface: is this for the case ? yes . project manager: so special colours though , we having that , marketing: oh okay , the mm-hmm , mm ' kay . project manager: right ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then we have to interface push buttons . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: scroll wheel , no . integrated scroll wheel , l_c_ display ? user interface: no . marketing: no , project manager: button . marketing: 'cause we did n't put the clock in it after all , right ? project manager: no . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh , button supplement special colour ? user interface: speci yes project manager: special form ? user interface: yes d we do have special form . marketing: yes . project manager: and special material , rubber , wood , yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . total seven point six whatever that means . industrial designer: uh , i think that 's the price . project manager: that 's the price . user interface: one two three four five six seven eight nine project manager: mm ? industrial designer: maybe it is it just n project manager: eight , eight point two . that 's user interface: nine points , project manager: hmm ? user interface: okay , yes . project manager: eight point two , right ? so , we looks like we are well within budget . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . i guess i should save this i suppose , huh ? marketing: yeah . project manager: oops . uh-huh huh huh . user interface: on the desktop . project manager: i just tried that . my documents , computer . industrial designer: ami . project manager: my compu ah oh here it is , yes . industrial designer: ami should for project manager: okay , fine . save . okay good , so that 's the good news . we gon na be popular . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: project manager: um . so that uh i think financing was pretty simple . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: now we would like to have a presentation by the marketing expert on production evaluation . marketing: okay , i 'll take my file down so you can bring it up . 'kay should be able to get it now . 'kay , why do n't you move just to the next slide right away . project manager: you wan na go to the next slide ? marketing: yeah right away . project manager: okay . marketing: okay , well uh obviously my method for uh s m the marketing of this thing is first to ask the big question , will it sell ? and i think we should show this prototype to people from various age and socio-economic groups and see about any fine tuning that maybe little things we have n't thought of . user interface: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: we ca n't accept every suggestion of course , but maybe we just need to get a few . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and show the the prototype to consumer research groups , we do n't s want somebody to suddenly come to us and tell us that this button is toxic and you know some child will swallow it and then we wo n't sell any . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm . marketing: so we have to get some input from those people . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and then after that we just have to go with our best intuition and you know we like it , we think it 's good , we 're gon na get behind it and sell it . um , next slide please . okay , now the things that i was thinking and th my wish list has really been realised in this prototype . i wanted the shape to be biomorphic , i did n't want anything with angles and all square , i wanted it to be comfy and roundy so we we 've got that . the size is small , the colour 's bright and warm which is what we wanted . we wanted the feel to be as soft as possible , we 'll have the soft buttons industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and the way this is shaped , even though it 's gon na be hard plastic , it feels good in your hand so that 's nice . and functionality i put last on my list because people are n't going to use it before they buy it . industrial designer: marketing: so paradoxically the other features , in other words , the look , the feel um and the shape , that 's what people are gon na get in the store . user interface: fee selling . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: they do n't have a television in the store , they ca n't play with it . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um so they 'll be our main selling points . so um th those have been fulfilled by your prototype and go ahead to the next slide please . okay , so um the shape um i think is a a one . that 's really , really excellent shape . the size is small um and th these points are in the importance for the , for the marketing , these are n't i in how i feel . i think that it 's i think that it 's plenty small enough to sell but i think we 're sort of right the scale is one to seven . i think we 're sort of right in the middle as far as c other competitors . user interface: okay . marketing: and our colour i think is great . the colours are bright and warm and we really do great job there . and given um the constraints that we had i think we got it as soft as possible . and then functionality um i think you did a really good job on functionality , obviously we could have ad added different functions but then we 'd disturb something else so i would say that we got to a five out of seven on on functionality . user interface: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so i think that basically we 've got a great product and we can get off and running with it . project manager: um i just realised one thing . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: in the financing there was no room for our voice recogniser . marketing: yes . user interface: yes . marketing: ah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i do n't know how we can evaluate that or how we can include that , too . marketing: well , um we had what , eight eight euros twenty as our cost ? project manager: eight , eight twenty , yes . industrial designer: eight twenty so marketing: and so we 've got we 've still got four euros to go to spend . industrial designer: we have um four euros , yeah project manager: i mean maximum we have another four point three euros i mean four thirty . marketing: mm-hmm . well um that 's project manager: but i mean we have no way of presenting that to management as you know as a f finished , as a finished product and saying okay with the voice recogniser that costs so much . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so um we just have to beware of that . i mean and know whether the four thirty will really cover that . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: well as we know in today 's technic technological world you can do just about anything at any price , the the the problem is quality . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so we 're just gon na have to settle for whatever quality that will buy us . industrial designer: yeah , user interface: yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and um it may not be the greatest quality but it may sell anyway . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , still . marketing: as we 've seen with so many of these kinds of products . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i 'm sorry to interrupt then but i just uh recog i just remembered that there was no that that was not um included uh that there was no room for any special features , okay ? industrial designer: included , yeah . hmm , user interface: yeah mm . industrial designer: hmm project manager: so to beware of that . you wan na go to this next slide , marketing expert ? marketing: uh , well i is n't this my last slide ? project manager: i dunno . marketing: maybe . project manager: yes it is . mm-hmm . marketing: go ahead . i think that was my last slide , yeah . um . mm okay . and i 'm supposed to present this scale on the whiteboard . um and we 're supposed to talk about those things as a team now , so if you put my last slide back up there . project manager: oh . marketing: i 'm sorry i 've um forgot to do that , um . project manager: why ? wh why you need that up ? marketing: hmm ? well because i ca n't remember what i put on there . okay . industrial designer: marketing: now i 'm supposed to see how long my leash is here . project manager: i think you can make it there . marketing: mm 'kay . you ready . so now we 're all supposed to say what we think . um okay so on shape i gave it a one . wait what would you ra uh one being good and seven being the worst . user interface: worse , okay . marketing: um what do you think the shape is ? user interface: one . marketing: one , okay , and be betsy ? project manager: yes i think uh shape is one . industrial designer: yeah , even my yeah , shape is one . marketing: okay , uh-huh one , okay . and how about on size ? on size project manager: you you gave it a four . marketing: i gave it a four , yeah , i feel it 's just average . project manager: um , i dunno . i think i would give it at least a two . marketing: okay . user interface: one . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , even i think it is one . it 's quite small . marketing: okay . okay user interface: marketing: you 're the designer , of course you wan na give it a one . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um and then how about how we doing on colour ? project manager: colour uh i marketing: colour , i gave it a one . project manager: one . marketing: i really like all those nice bright , warm colours . project manager: i i like the colours . one . user interface: one . yes . marketing: one . industrial designer: yeah , one . marketing: one , one , one , okay . and how about the feel ? taking into um consideration texture and comfort in the hand . project manager: uh , i think i would give it a two . marketing: okay , i gave it a three , two , user interface: i 'll give three . marketing: yeah ? three . industrial designer: uh maybe two , marketing: two , okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and the next is functionality where i i admit i was a little hard on our team here , but project manager: well it 's also you ca n't really try it out uh the other things you have have more is are more tangible so from that point of view marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: but um i 'll give it a three . marketing: okay . user interface: two . marketing: two , okay . industrial designer: uh three , mm-hmm . marketing: three ? okay . well , um . it looks like we 've got got ourselves a pretty good product . um the functionality 's the only place where maybe we have to think about m m maybe , heaven forbid , having another meeting . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but um otherwise i think we 're we 're ready to go to go with this product . anybody else have any other comments or any other things that we feel we should evaluate ? project manager: uh . here is what we looking at uh satisfaction on for example room for creativity . um . is there more room for creativity or are we absolutely happy ? user interface: we can always improve , yes . industrial designer: maybe we can yeah , include some more buttons and uh um user interface: yes , features . industrial designer: yeah features . we can make the buttons few buttons smaller . uh i think they are quite big , so i think i i mean we can just have small buttons and more buttons in that case . if we want to have more features than that . marketing: mm-hmm . well then again if we 're gon na um do the speech recognition thing we 're gon there gon na be some buttons that are gon na have to be added for that for the recording of the the speech . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , definitely . user interface: yes . voices . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so that that 's where we 're gon na have to do maybe we can eliminate one of the mute buttons , instead of having two mute buttons . industrial designer: yeah , definitely , yeah , two mu mute buttons . user interface: yes . yes . marketing: and um then maybe we can do something with the um the volume control . maybe we can put that all on one button . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: um and a couple of other th maybe comp uh consolidate some of the usage an and see what we can do with that . project manager: y um al always bearing in mind that right now we are of course well within the budget industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and maybe project manager: and that we still you know we probably ca n't , with this particular item , we probably ca n't just uh add a whole lot of more things . marketing: mm-hmm . no . project manager: uh um we need uh you know we need to leave space money-wise for the voice recogniser . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so th the question really is how do we feel with the project process ? uh , um are we happy with the creativity that has passed here or we 're not happy with the new product we created or that was created ? uh i think personally i think uh i 'm pretty happy . marketing: i 'm pretty happy with it too , yeah um , project manager: um an industrial designer: even i 'm happy . marketing: it 's something i think i can market . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and then the next question is are we happy with the leadership of this project ? uh marketing: i think you 've done a good job , miss leader . user interface: yes , yes you 've done a good job . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , definitely . project manager: and i think team work i think was very very good , i think we really industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah i d i do too i think we worked well together as a team , yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i think we are we happy with the means we used ? we used whiteboard , we did n't use digital p well digital pens i guess are these things . marketing: yeah maybe we could 've used the whiteboard a little bit more , yeah , user interface: whiteboard more , yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah , probably . marketing: we did n't use that enough . project manager: yes , we could . uh , it 's maybe not in the best position in the room um you know like sometimes it 's positioned so that it 's much better visible for everybody and i think from that point of view we sort of ignored it a little bit . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: and we used the slide because it was better positioned . project manager: yes , i think so , i think absolutely , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: no . marketing: mm i think that 's true mm-hmm . project manager: and fortunately we all had slides presentation which made it a little easier . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um did we new did we find new ideas ? user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think we did . industrial designer: yeah , many . marketing: i think we were we were very good , yeah , mm . project manager: i think we we did , uh in more than one respect and uh so i think we did very well here . marketing: mm-hmm . okay . project manager: are the costs within budget ? yes , yes . uh is the project evaluated ? yes . marketing: yes , yes . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um then celebration . marketing: celebration . user interface: cel celebration yes , yes . industrial designer: ah . marketing: today we have apple juice and after we sell m million of 'em we have champagne . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: so i i thank you all very much . um , i think this was very good and um industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think we did come up with a new product that 's uh feasible . feasible from the production point of view and feasible from a marketing point of view . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: so , thank you . marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: thank you . industrial designer: thank you very much . marketing: okay . watch i i have my cord behind you here . user interface: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: i always get it on here , but getting it off is industrial designer: do we do we have some time left ? uh you have user interface: they say it 's forty minutes . project manager: ah yes we have time later marketing: but we we were told we could end the final meeting at any time , whenever we felt we were finished . project manager: but we do n't user interface: okay . industrial designer: oh , alright . marketing: it 'll take me the rest of the time to get my microphone out from my necklace . oh , there we go .

apart from being small , easy to use and eye-catching , the remote should have buttons , a soft feel and a trendy design , possibly incorporating fruit and vegetable elements . marketing proposed having one or two star features that the campaign could be built on and speech recognition could be one of the options . also , the energy source should be a battery . it was highlighted that the remote should get to the market before the competition .

what did industrial designer say about the appearance during the discussion about the design of the prototype ? </s> project manager: well hi everyone again . user interface: hello . industrial designer: hello . marketing: hello project manager: um like before we uh i have to redo the meetings from n th the minutes from the last meeting marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and so here we go . uh it was discussed in the last meeting uh which was opened by the presentation from the interface um designer that uh looks would be very important on this new remote user interface: designer . marketing: project manager: and um it is to send messages of course to the tv . it should have nine channel buttons , a next button , volume buttons , subtitle buttons , switch to control features , colour contrast , sharpness etcetera . it should have a memory switch , a mute button in case the telephone rings or something . uh speech recognition is one of her very f favourite personal uh features she would like see d d to be integrated in this um in this new remote . um . should be child friendly design with few buttons , colourful maybe with s star shaped or other shaped buttons . um she uh presented also an oversized remote which she guarantees nobody will ever be able to lose . user interface: project manager: um marketing: and she was challenged on that point project manager: that 's right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: project manager: but uh her very f personal favourite really she , she would very much like to see a speech recogniser integrated in this remote . the industrial designer um presented her uh thoughts on the issue . she would like a special case made out of plastic that is very strong , not using any harmful materials , should be recyclable and should be colourful . should have an integrated circuit board that 's highly sophisticated and temperature resistant . she would like to see a timer and or alarm facility integrated . uh technically this thing would also have a resistor and a capacitor , diode transistor , resonator , and if possible a rechargeable battery . uh and of course a circuit board . and how it would works , you press the button , the chip is morse morse code related relays the uh to the generat to the generator amplification and uh the circuit board is very inexpensive to build and so she thinks this is a great feature uh to to to consider . marketing: okay . project manager: she would like uh this whole thing should be push buttons with a simple chip uh scrolling method is more expensive and not that practical anymore . should be battery operated and of course she would have the special cases . the marketing expert uh who has to finally come up with to to to market this product has been watching the competition , has done some research on the internet and also has used h her personal observations to come up with the fact that such a remote sh should be small , easy to use and it should be eye catching . from her point of view of course one of the most important facts is that we should get to market before our competition does . to do that uh maybe one or two features should be developed on which we could dwell on or in other words on which our campaign could be built on . too many new features or too many points would only confuse matter . so we prefer to have one or two features that can be really uh driven home . um it should have a fruit and vegetable design and should have a soft feel . she feels that 's really what people want today . and the decision that we took last time was that uh the special feature we would like to see is a speech recogniser , the energy should be battery uh should be on a chip , should be trendy design , compact and strong , and should have buttons . and that concludes the presentation from the last minutes from the last meeting . now uh we are ready for the presentation of the prototype . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: just the look like , the button part i 'll explain . industrial designer: yeah . uh so this is our what uh we have made . this is a model of the remote control which we are going to build . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh this is us in a snail shape so uh it it is attractive marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and it 's it 's blue in colour uh bright and uh it has yellow buttons and all the different colour buttons marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so it is a uh uh a looks-wise it is beautiful . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh and also compact in shape . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh um and also i it it will be easily fit into into the hands and you can access all the buttons easily . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . good . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: industrial designer: oops , sorry . marketing: you used to have all the buttons user interface: industrial designer: um yeah and um uh the material which we are going to use for the case is uh plastic and uh w which which is s strong um uh and also uh for the um the material is plastic and uh for the buttons it is uh s soft rubber um and als marketing: oh that 's good , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: no , that 's nice and friendly . industrial designer: yeah because uh uh you 'll be touching the buttons more so it is soft when you touch it . marketing: mm-hmm . mm . project manager: mm-hmm , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then um uh for the for the led , for the light emitting diode it is a fluorescent green marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and it 's a a it is a bulb like an ordinary infrared . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and and the button button 's part uh will be explained by f francina . user interface: okay . marketing: okay . user interface: now the um we decided upon including certain features on our remote . now these features includes the s um signal emitting uh signal it 's the led or l_e_d_ the infrared . project manager: mm-hmm , marketing: yeah , okay , mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: now uh we have included the switch on and off button . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: now we have included another feature that is the mute button marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: on the side of the model . then we have included one to nine buttons marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: for controlling the programmes the different channels . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we have also included two buttons for increasing or decreasing the volume . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and we have also included two buttons for scrolling up and scrolling down the programme channels . now our our model also contains a button which is called as the menu button . marketing: mm . project manager: what kind of button ? user interface: menu button . project manager: menu ? uh menu th menu , uh one one . user interface: yes , menu marketing: menu button . user interface: at the centre marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we have included a button which is fluorescent green colour and this is the menu button which will control the colour , sharpness , brightness marketing: mm-hmm . of the screen . mm , mm-hmm . user interface: of this uh picture . we have also included a button which is called as the swapping button . now this is uh a special , special feature which we have included . now this button is an elongated shaped button and this is slightly flexible so if it is turned towards the right it will take to the previous channel , if it is turned towards the right it will take to the next channel . it will take the user to the previous and the next channel so this is a swapping button . marketing: the next channel in the numeric pattern , or user interface: no , swapping is if if example you 're you 're watching the second channel and then you go to the tenth channel and if you want to go back to the second channel you can swap , this button . marketing: yeah , mm-hmm . mm . user interface: yes . marketing: okay , okay . user interface: and at the end , it this remote has inbuilt voice recogniser which c which will recognise the user 's voice and then it 'll act accordingly . project manager: okay . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: so this is our proposed model . marketing: okay . user interface: now the marketing expert has to marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: tell , yeah . user interface: give her suggestion whether it 'll be sellable or it 'll be cost effective . industrial designer: marketing: okay , well um what what i really like a lot about it is that you can reach the whole thing with one thumb , user interface: yes , yes . marketing: that you can really hold it in one h you do n't need two hands industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and it 's easily reachable even for somebody with a small hand , yeah ? project manager: yes the buttons are all raised , right ? marketing: the buttons are all raised project manager: are raised , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: and if you hold it in the centre of your hand you can even reach it over here so you do n't have to turn it around , turn it upside down , move it up , up and down , project manager: right . or have two hands to operate it , yeah . marketing: i really like that . user interface: mm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: you really did a good job on that , my little designers . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um and um i like the idea that the on-off button is in a really prominent place . that 's that 's a really good good thing . project manager: yes , and it sort of sticks up so that you really marketing: yeah , that 's great . project manager: you do n't have to g first go like oh yeah here it 's on and yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: abs okay . marketing: the colour 's very attractive . um the um these buttons uh around here are the mute user interface: no , these the front buttons which are here , are the mute buttons . marketing: and these mm-hmm on both sides they 're mute ? user interface: yes , yes . marketing: so you can push either one ? user interface: yes . marketing: okay . project manager: so if you 're left-handed or right-handed it does n't matter . marketing: and this brings the menu up on the screen ? user interface: pardon me ? this is the menu yes , yes . marketing: this brings the menu up on the screen and the orange ones are user interface: a the the these these two are th to increase or decrease the volumes , marketing: okay . user interface: and these two are to uh scroll the programme channels . marketing: f f okay . user interface: scroll up or scroll down the channels . marketing: right , very good . uh it looks mm looks like something i can sell . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: okay and now i 'm supposed to project manager: well , i have one question marketing: yeah . project manager: uh will there be anything written on the buttons , like that people know , or they have to learn that from a piece of paper which button does what ? user interface: yes , it will have uh these buttons will have the numbers and all the rest of the buttons will have symbols . industrial designer: ah . yeah , definitely . project manager: will have symbols so that that that the user really knows you know and does n't have to first learn it user interface: yes , which can be easily recognised . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: good point because we need the symbols 'cause we 're going into an international market we ca n't have anything that 's language dependent . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah of course , and also user interface: yes . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: yeah . but anyway it would ha i i i it has to have some kind of of symbols , text or something so that people kn industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah we can text . marketing: symbols on it . mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . industrial designer: text that we can have on the case itself , project manager: that 's right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: we can it will be printed on the case and symbols as well as the buttons . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , yeah just wanted make sure of that mm-hmm . user interface: and and one more feature is we we have a holder for this remote which is an oyster shape . marketing: mm , 'kay , mm . mm-hmm . user interface: a shell shape . marketing: for the snail , yeah , mm-hmm , project manager: right , mm-hmm . user interface: yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah . so it is marketing: we have the snail shell . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yes , snail shell . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: he goes right back into his shell . industrial designer: yeah shell . project manager: right . user interface: yes . marketing: well you know i think we could do something really funny with this too because the snail is known to be slow industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and we could have some sort of little comic effect on our marketing about how this is a rapid snail or something like that user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm . user interface: y yes industrial designer: yeah , of course , yeah . marketing: you know that would , that would really work . project manager: now what , what are our special features for the marketing ? marketing: so project manager: that 's really the voice recognition that 's really unusual marketing: i think voice recognition is our big selling point industrial designer: mm . mm-hmm . marketing: 'cause nobody else seems to have that in in this price range . industrial designer: mm . project manager: and then , and then the other thing would basically be sh shape or practicality of use . marketing: yep project manager: you know . marketing: uh well i think that everybody 's gon na say their remote control is practical . i think we have to , we have to dwell on on on the appearance . project manager: colours . mm-hmm . marketing: we 're really gon na have the be the project manager: cutest . marketing: cutest remote control on the block . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm . marketing: so i think we have to play with the image , play with the snail image um play with the visual and then the voice recognition . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: i think those are the two things to push . the look and the voice recognition . they 're gon na be our two selling points . project manager: okay , now uh having said that marketing: i 'm supposed to make a little presentation , are n't i ? project manager: no , now this was our evaluation criteria which we uh just have done . marketing: okay . project manager: now we 're gon na talk about financing . marketing: ah , but in my instructions i think it said i was supposed to go to the board and do something . project manager: well , there is a production evaluation . marketing: no ? project manager: is that you ? marketing: yeah , that 's me . project manager: but that 's after the financing . marketing: oh , okay . project manager: see ? fi see ? marketing: sorry , sorry . mm-mm . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: um . okay , we had looks and voice recognition . okay now on the financing we bring up the mm there it is . okay uh energy source we say that 's battery , right ? industrial designer: mm . marketing: that 's right . project manager: okay , now . so we i guess we use one . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: what ? t cell or chart you are trying to change is protected . well , that 's nice . she told me i could just ch change it here and then it would it does n't work . hmm . marketing: can you just fill it in in the yellow boxes ? or project manager: oh , okay yeah , okay , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: let 's see . okay , one , okay . user interface: yes . project manager: oh go away . um kinetic source so that 's in the energy source that 's all we need . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: uh electronics , simple chip on print ? is that 's what we 're using ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: one of those ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: come on . okay , one . uh regular chip on print . no . that 's all we need , the one industrial designer: no . yeah . project manager: case , uncurved flat , single curved , double curved . marketing: well . industrial designer: this is a user interface: single curve ? mm . marketing: i guess it 's double curved . project manager: double curved ? one of those ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: case materi s supplements . plastic we said , right ? user interface: plastic . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh wood , rubber ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: rubber , because we 're gon na have the soft buttons . project manager: uh but , yes but industrial designer: i think uh that is uh f for rubbers that is uh yeah case material . project manager: that 's just for the case material , user interface: is this for the case ? yes . project manager: so special colours though , we having that , marketing: oh okay , the mm-hmm , mm ' kay . project manager: right ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then we have to interface push buttons . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: scroll wheel , no . integrated scroll wheel , l_c_ display ? user interface: no . marketing: no , project manager: button . marketing: 'cause we did n't put the clock in it after all , right ? project manager: no . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh , button supplement special colour ? user interface: speci yes project manager: special form ? user interface: yes d we do have special form . marketing: yes . project manager: and special material , rubber , wood , yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . total seven point six whatever that means . industrial designer: uh , i think that 's the price . project manager: that 's the price . user interface: one two three four five six seven eight nine project manager: mm ? industrial designer: maybe it is it just n project manager: eight , eight point two . that 's user interface: nine points , project manager: hmm ? user interface: okay , yes . project manager: eight point two , right ? so , we looks like we are well within budget . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . i guess i should save this i suppose , huh ? marketing: yeah . project manager: oops . uh-huh huh huh . user interface: on the desktop . project manager: i just tried that . my documents , computer . industrial designer: ami . project manager: my compu ah oh here it is , yes . industrial designer: ami should for project manager: okay , fine . save . okay good , so that 's the good news . we gon na be popular . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: project manager: um . so that uh i think financing was pretty simple . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: now we would like to have a presentation by the marketing expert on production evaluation . marketing: okay , i 'll take my file down so you can bring it up . 'kay should be able to get it now . 'kay , why do n't you move just to the next slide right away . project manager: you wan na go to the next slide ? marketing: yeah right away . project manager: okay . marketing: okay , well uh obviously my method for uh s m the marketing of this thing is first to ask the big question , will it sell ? and i think we should show this prototype to people from various age and socio-economic groups and see about any fine tuning that maybe little things we have n't thought of . user interface: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: we ca n't accept every suggestion of course , but maybe we just need to get a few . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and show the the prototype to consumer research groups , we do n't s want somebody to suddenly come to us and tell us that this button is toxic and you know some child will swallow it and then we wo n't sell any . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm . marketing: so we have to get some input from those people . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and then after that we just have to go with our best intuition and you know we like it , we think it 's good , we 're gon na get behind it and sell it . um , next slide please . okay , now the things that i was thinking and th my wish list has really been realised in this prototype . i wanted the shape to be biomorphic , i did n't want anything with angles and all square , i wanted it to be comfy and roundy so we we 've got that . the size is small , the colour 's bright and warm which is what we wanted . we wanted the feel to be as soft as possible , we 'll have the soft buttons industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and the way this is shaped , even though it 's gon na be hard plastic , it feels good in your hand so that 's nice . and functionality i put last on my list because people are n't going to use it before they buy it . industrial designer: marketing: so paradoxically the other features , in other words , the look , the feel um and the shape , that 's what people are gon na get in the store . user interface: fee selling . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: they do n't have a television in the store , they ca n't play with it . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um so they 'll be our main selling points . so um th those have been fulfilled by your prototype and go ahead to the next slide please . okay , so um the shape um i think is a a one . that 's really , really excellent shape . the size is small um and th these points are in the importance for the , for the marketing , these are n't i in how i feel . i think that it 's i think that it 's plenty small enough to sell but i think we 're sort of right the scale is one to seven . i think we 're sort of right in the middle as far as c other competitors . user interface: okay . marketing: and our colour i think is great . the colours are bright and warm and we really do great job there . and given um the constraints that we had i think we got it as soft as possible . and then functionality um i think you did a really good job on functionality , obviously we could have ad added different functions but then we 'd disturb something else so i would say that we got to a five out of seven on on functionality . user interface: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so i think that basically we 've got a great product and we can get off and running with it . project manager: um i just realised one thing . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: in the financing there was no room for our voice recogniser . marketing: yes . user interface: yes . marketing: ah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i do n't know how we can evaluate that or how we can include that , too . marketing: well , um we had what , eight eight euros twenty as our cost ? project manager: eight , eight twenty , yes . industrial designer: eight twenty so marketing: and so we 've got we 've still got four euros to go to spend . industrial designer: we have um four euros , yeah project manager: i mean maximum we have another four point three euros i mean four thirty . marketing: mm-hmm . well um that 's project manager: but i mean we have no way of presenting that to management as you know as a f finished , as a finished product and saying okay with the voice recogniser that costs so much . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so um we just have to beware of that . i mean and know whether the four thirty will really cover that . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: well as we know in today 's technic technological world you can do just about anything at any price , the the the problem is quality . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so we 're just gon na have to settle for whatever quality that will buy us . industrial designer: yeah , user interface: yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and um it may not be the greatest quality but it may sell anyway . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , still . marketing: as we 've seen with so many of these kinds of products . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i 'm sorry to interrupt then but i just uh recog i just remembered that there was no that that was not um included uh that there was no room for any special features , okay ? industrial designer: included , yeah . hmm , user interface: yeah mm . industrial designer: hmm project manager: so to beware of that . you wan na go to this next slide , marketing expert ? marketing: uh , well i is n't this my last slide ? project manager: i dunno . marketing: maybe . project manager: yes it is . mm-hmm . marketing: go ahead . i think that was my last slide , yeah . um . mm okay . and i 'm supposed to present this scale on the whiteboard . um and we 're supposed to talk about those things as a team now , so if you put my last slide back up there . project manager: oh . marketing: i 'm sorry i 've um forgot to do that , um . project manager: why ? wh why you need that up ? marketing: hmm ? well because i ca n't remember what i put on there . okay . industrial designer: marketing: now i 'm supposed to see how long my leash is here . project manager: i think you can make it there . marketing: mm 'kay . you ready . so now we 're all supposed to say what we think . um okay so on shape i gave it a one . wait what would you ra uh one being good and seven being the worst . user interface: worse , okay . marketing: um what do you think the shape is ? user interface: one . marketing: one , okay , and be betsy ? project manager: yes i think uh shape is one . industrial designer: yeah , even my yeah , shape is one . marketing: okay , uh-huh one , okay . and how about on size ? on size project manager: you you gave it a four . marketing: i gave it a four , yeah , i feel it 's just average . project manager: um , i dunno . i think i would give it at least a two . marketing: okay . user interface: one . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , even i think it is one . it 's quite small . marketing: okay . okay user interface: marketing: you 're the designer , of course you wan na give it a one . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um and then how about how we doing on colour ? project manager: colour uh i marketing: colour , i gave it a one . project manager: one . marketing: i really like all those nice bright , warm colours . project manager: i i like the colours . one . user interface: one . yes . marketing: one . industrial designer: yeah , one . marketing: one , one , one , okay . and how about the feel ? taking into um consideration texture and comfort in the hand . project manager: uh , i think i would give it a two . marketing: okay , i gave it a three , two , user interface: i 'll give three . marketing: yeah ? three . industrial designer: uh maybe two , marketing: two , okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and the next is functionality where i i admit i was a little hard on our team here , but project manager: well it 's also you ca n't really try it out uh the other things you have have more is are more tangible so from that point of view marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: but um i 'll give it a three . marketing: okay . user interface: two . marketing: two , okay . industrial designer: uh three , mm-hmm . marketing: three ? okay . well , um . it looks like we 've got got ourselves a pretty good product . um the functionality 's the only place where maybe we have to think about m m maybe , heaven forbid , having another meeting . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but um otherwise i think we 're we 're ready to go to go with this product . anybody else have any other comments or any other things that we feel we should evaluate ? project manager: uh . here is what we looking at uh satisfaction on for example room for creativity . um . is there more room for creativity or are we absolutely happy ? user interface: we can always improve , yes . industrial designer: maybe we can yeah , include some more buttons and uh um user interface: yes , features . industrial designer: yeah features . we can make the buttons few buttons smaller . uh i think they are quite big , so i think i i mean we can just have small buttons and more buttons in that case . if we want to have more features than that . marketing: mm-hmm . well then again if we 're gon na um do the speech recognition thing we 're gon there gon na be some buttons that are gon na have to be added for that for the recording of the the speech . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , definitely . user interface: yes . voices . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so that that 's where we 're gon na have to do maybe we can eliminate one of the mute buttons , instead of having two mute buttons . industrial designer: yeah , definitely , yeah , two mu mute buttons . user interface: yes . yes . marketing: and um then maybe we can do something with the um the volume control . maybe we can put that all on one button . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: um and a couple of other th maybe comp uh consolidate some of the usage an and see what we can do with that . project manager: y um al always bearing in mind that right now we are of course well within the budget industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and maybe project manager: and that we still you know we probably ca n't , with this particular item , we probably ca n't just uh add a whole lot of more things . marketing: mm-hmm . no . project manager: uh um we need uh you know we need to leave space money-wise for the voice recogniser . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so th the question really is how do we feel with the project process ? uh , um are we happy with the creativity that has passed here or we 're not happy with the new product we created or that was created ? uh i think personally i think uh i 'm pretty happy . marketing: i 'm pretty happy with it too , yeah um , project manager: um an industrial designer: even i 'm happy . marketing: it 's something i think i can market . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and then the next question is are we happy with the leadership of this project ? uh marketing: i think you 've done a good job , miss leader . user interface: yes , yes you 've done a good job . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , definitely . project manager: and i think team work i think was very very good , i think we really industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah i d i do too i think we worked well together as a team , yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i think we are we happy with the means we used ? we used whiteboard , we did n't use digital p well digital pens i guess are these things . marketing: yeah maybe we could 've used the whiteboard a little bit more , yeah , user interface: whiteboard more , yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah , probably . marketing: we did n't use that enough . project manager: yes , we could . uh , it 's maybe not in the best position in the room um you know like sometimes it 's positioned so that it 's much better visible for everybody and i think from that point of view we sort of ignored it a little bit . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: and we used the slide because it was better positioned . project manager: yes , i think so , i think absolutely , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: no . marketing: mm i think that 's true mm-hmm . project manager: and fortunately we all had slides presentation which made it a little easier . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um did we new did we find new ideas ? user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think we did . industrial designer: yeah , many . marketing: i think we were we were very good , yeah , mm . project manager: i think we we did , uh in more than one respect and uh so i think we did very well here . marketing: mm-hmm . okay . project manager: are the costs within budget ? yes , yes . uh is the project evaluated ? yes . marketing: yes , yes . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um then celebration . marketing: celebration . user interface: cel celebration yes , yes . industrial designer: ah . marketing: today we have apple juice and after we sell m million of 'em we have champagne . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: so i i thank you all very much . um , i think this was very good and um industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think we did come up with a new product that 's uh feasible . feasible from the production point of view and feasible from a marketing point of view . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: so , thank you . marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: thank you . industrial designer: thank you very much . marketing: okay . watch i i have my cord behind you here . user interface: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: i always get it on here , but getting it off is industrial designer: do we do we have some time left ? uh you have user interface: they say it 's forty minutes . project manager: ah yes we have time later marketing: but we we were told we could end the final meeting at any time , whenever we felt we were finished . project manager: but we do n't user interface: okay . industrial designer: oh , alright . marketing: it 'll take me the rest of the time to get my microphone out from my necklace . oh , there we go .

the prototype was attractive , bright blue and snail shaped with buttons in different colours such as yellow . it was compact so it could easily fit in the hand and buttons could be easily accessed . moreover , the material for the case would be plastic but the buttons would be made with soft rubber . for the light emitting diode of the led , it would be fluorescent green and it would be a bulb like an ordinary infrared . last but not least , there would be an oyster-shaped holder for the remote .

what features did user interface present regarding the design of the prototype ? </s> project manager: well hi everyone again . user interface: hello . industrial designer: hello . marketing: hello project manager: um like before we uh i have to redo the meetings from n th the minutes from the last meeting marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and so here we go . uh it was discussed in the last meeting uh which was opened by the presentation from the interface um designer that uh looks would be very important on this new remote user interface: designer . marketing: project manager: and um it is to send messages of course to the tv . it should have nine channel buttons , a next button , volume buttons , subtitle buttons , switch to control features , colour contrast , sharpness etcetera . it should have a memory switch , a mute button in case the telephone rings or something . uh speech recognition is one of her very f favourite personal uh features she would like see d d to be integrated in this um in this new remote . um . should be child friendly design with few buttons , colourful maybe with s star shaped or other shaped buttons . um she uh presented also an oversized remote which she guarantees nobody will ever be able to lose . user interface: project manager: um marketing: and she was challenged on that point project manager: that 's right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: project manager: but uh her very f personal favourite really she , she would very much like to see a speech recogniser integrated in this remote . the industrial designer um presented her uh thoughts on the issue . she would like a special case made out of plastic that is very strong , not using any harmful materials , should be recyclable and should be colourful . should have an integrated circuit board that 's highly sophisticated and temperature resistant . she would like to see a timer and or alarm facility integrated . uh technically this thing would also have a resistor and a capacitor , diode transistor , resonator , and if possible a rechargeable battery . uh and of course a circuit board . and how it would works , you press the button , the chip is morse morse code related relays the uh to the generat to the generator amplification and uh the circuit board is very inexpensive to build and so she thinks this is a great feature uh to to to consider . marketing: okay . project manager: she would like uh this whole thing should be push buttons with a simple chip uh scrolling method is more expensive and not that practical anymore . should be battery operated and of course she would have the special cases . the marketing expert uh who has to finally come up with to to to market this product has been watching the competition , has done some research on the internet and also has used h her personal observations to come up with the fact that such a remote sh should be small , easy to use and it should be eye catching . from her point of view of course one of the most important facts is that we should get to market before our competition does . to do that uh maybe one or two features should be developed on which we could dwell on or in other words on which our campaign could be built on . too many new features or too many points would only confuse matter . so we prefer to have one or two features that can be really uh driven home . um it should have a fruit and vegetable design and should have a soft feel . she feels that 's really what people want today . and the decision that we took last time was that uh the special feature we would like to see is a speech recogniser , the energy should be battery uh should be on a chip , should be trendy design , compact and strong , and should have buttons . and that concludes the presentation from the last minutes from the last meeting . now uh we are ready for the presentation of the prototype . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: just the look like , the button part i 'll explain . industrial designer: yeah . uh so this is our what uh we have made . this is a model of the remote control which we are going to build . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh this is us in a snail shape so uh it it is attractive marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and it 's it 's blue in colour uh bright and uh it has yellow buttons and all the different colour buttons marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so it is a uh uh a looks-wise it is beautiful . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh and also compact in shape . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh um and also i it it will be easily fit into into the hands and you can access all the buttons easily . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . good . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: industrial designer: oops , sorry . marketing: you used to have all the buttons user interface: industrial designer: um yeah and um uh the material which we are going to use for the case is uh plastic and uh w which which is s strong um uh and also uh for the um the material is plastic and uh for the buttons it is uh s soft rubber um and als marketing: oh that 's good , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: no , that 's nice and friendly . industrial designer: yeah because uh uh you 'll be touching the buttons more so it is soft when you touch it . marketing: mm-hmm . mm . project manager: mm-hmm , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then um uh for the for the led , for the light emitting diode it is a fluorescent green marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and it 's a a it is a bulb like an ordinary infrared . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and and the button button 's part uh will be explained by f francina . user interface: okay . marketing: okay . user interface: now the um we decided upon including certain features on our remote . now these features includes the s um signal emitting uh signal it 's the led or l_e_d_ the infrared . project manager: mm-hmm , marketing: yeah , okay , mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: now uh we have included the switch on and off button . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: now we have included another feature that is the mute button marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: on the side of the model . then we have included one to nine buttons marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: for controlling the programmes the different channels . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we have also included two buttons for increasing or decreasing the volume . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and we have also included two buttons for scrolling up and scrolling down the programme channels . now our our model also contains a button which is called as the menu button . marketing: mm . project manager: what kind of button ? user interface: menu button . project manager: menu ? uh menu th menu , uh one one . user interface: yes , menu marketing: menu button . user interface: at the centre marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we have included a button which is fluorescent green colour and this is the menu button which will control the colour , sharpness , brightness marketing: mm-hmm . of the screen . mm , mm-hmm . user interface: of this uh picture . we have also included a button which is called as the swapping button . now this is uh a special , special feature which we have included . now this button is an elongated shaped button and this is slightly flexible so if it is turned towards the right it will take to the previous channel , if it is turned towards the right it will take to the next channel . it will take the user to the previous and the next channel so this is a swapping button . marketing: the next channel in the numeric pattern , or user interface: no , swapping is if if example you 're you 're watching the second channel and then you go to the tenth channel and if you want to go back to the second channel you can swap , this button . marketing: yeah , mm-hmm . mm . user interface: yes . marketing: okay , okay . user interface: and at the end , it this remote has inbuilt voice recogniser which c which will recognise the user 's voice and then it 'll act accordingly . project manager: okay . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: so this is our proposed model . marketing: okay . user interface: now the marketing expert has to marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: tell , yeah . user interface: give her suggestion whether it 'll be sellable or it 'll be cost effective . industrial designer: marketing: okay , well um what what i really like a lot about it is that you can reach the whole thing with one thumb , user interface: yes , yes . marketing: that you can really hold it in one h you do n't need two hands industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and it 's easily reachable even for somebody with a small hand , yeah ? project manager: yes the buttons are all raised , right ? marketing: the buttons are all raised project manager: are raised , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: and if you hold it in the centre of your hand you can even reach it over here so you do n't have to turn it around , turn it upside down , move it up , up and down , project manager: right . or have two hands to operate it , yeah . marketing: i really like that . user interface: mm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: you really did a good job on that , my little designers . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um and um i like the idea that the on-off button is in a really prominent place . that 's that 's a really good good thing . project manager: yes , and it sort of sticks up so that you really marketing: yeah , that 's great . project manager: you do n't have to g first go like oh yeah here it 's on and yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: abs okay . marketing: the colour 's very attractive . um the um these buttons uh around here are the mute user interface: no , these the front buttons which are here , are the mute buttons . marketing: and these mm-hmm on both sides they 're mute ? user interface: yes , yes . marketing: so you can push either one ? user interface: yes . marketing: okay . project manager: so if you 're left-handed or right-handed it does n't matter . marketing: and this brings the menu up on the screen ? user interface: pardon me ? this is the menu yes , yes . marketing: this brings the menu up on the screen and the orange ones are user interface: a the the these these two are th to increase or decrease the volumes , marketing: okay . user interface: and these two are to uh scroll the programme channels . marketing: f f okay . user interface: scroll up or scroll down the channels . marketing: right , very good . uh it looks mm looks like something i can sell . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: okay and now i 'm supposed to project manager: well , i have one question marketing: yeah . project manager: uh will there be anything written on the buttons , like that people know , or they have to learn that from a piece of paper which button does what ? user interface: yes , it will have uh these buttons will have the numbers and all the rest of the buttons will have symbols . industrial designer: ah . yeah , definitely . project manager: will have symbols so that that that the user really knows you know and does n't have to first learn it user interface: yes , which can be easily recognised . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: good point because we need the symbols 'cause we 're going into an international market we ca n't have anything that 's language dependent . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah of course , and also user interface: yes . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: yeah . but anyway it would ha i i i it has to have some kind of of symbols , text or something so that people kn industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah we can text . marketing: symbols on it . mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . industrial designer: text that we can have on the case itself , project manager: that 's right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: we can it will be printed on the case and symbols as well as the buttons . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , yeah just wanted make sure of that mm-hmm . user interface: and and one more feature is we we have a holder for this remote which is an oyster shape . marketing: mm , 'kay , mm . mm-hmm . user interface: a shell shape . marketing: for the snail , yeah , mm-hmm , project manager: right , mm-hmm . user interface: yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah . so it is marketing: we have the snail shell . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yes , snail shell . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: he goes right back into his shell . industrial designer: yeah shell . project manager: right . user interface: yes . marketing: well you know i think we could do something really funny with this too because the snail is known to be slow industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and we could have some sort of little comic effect on our marketing about how this is a rapid snail or something like that user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm . user interface: y yes industrial designer: yeah , of course , yeah . marketing: you know that would , that would really work . project manager: now what , what are our special features for the marketing ? marketing: so project manager: that 's really the voice recognition that 's really unusual marketing: i think voice recognition is our big selling point industrial designer: mm . mm-hmm . marketing: 'cause nobody else seems to have that in in this price range . industrial designer: mm . project manager: and then , and then the other thing would basically be sh shape or practicality of use . marketing: yep project manager: you know . marketing: uh well i think that everybody 's gon na say their remote control is practical . i think we have to , we have to dwell on on on the appearance . project manager: colours . mm-hmm . marketing: we 're really gon na have the be the project manager: cutest . marketing: cutest remote control on the block . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm . marketing: so i think we have to play with the image , play with the snail image um play with the visual and then the voice recognition . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: i think those are the two things to push . the look and the voice recognition . they 're gon na be our two selling points . project manager: okay , now uh having said that marketing: i 'm supposed to make a little presentation , are n't i ? project manager: no , now this was our evaluation criteria which we uh just have done . marketing: okay . project manager: now we 're gon na talk about financing . marketing: ah , but in my instructions i think it said i was supposed to go to the board and do something . project manager: well , there is a production evaluation . marketing: no ? project manager: is that you ? marketing: yeah , that 's me . project manager: but that 's after the financing . marketing: oh , okay . project manager: see ? fi see ? marketing: sorry , sorry . mm-mm . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: um . okay , we had looks and voice recognition . okay now on the financing we bring up the mm there it is . okay uh energy source we say that 's battery , right ? industrial designer: mm . marketing: that 's right . project manager: okay , now . so we i guess we use one . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: what ? t cell or chart you are trying to change is protected . well , that 's nice . she told me i could just ch change it here and then it would it does n't work . hmm . marketing: can you just fill it in in the yellow boxes ? or project manager: oh , okay yeah , okay , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: let 's see . okay , one , okay . user interface: yes . project manager: oh go away . um kinetic source so that 's in the energy source that 's all we need . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: uh electronics , simple chip on print ? is that 's what we 're using ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: one of those ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: come on . okay , one . uh regular chip on print . no . that 's all we need , the one industrial designer: no . yeah . project manager: case , uncurved flat , single curved , double curved . marketing: well . industrial designer: this is a user interface: single curve ? mm . marketing: i guess it 's double curved . project manager: double curved ? one of those ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: case materi s supplements . plastic we said , right ? user interface: plastic . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh wood , rubber ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: rubber , because we 're gon na have the soft buttons . project manager: uh but , yes but industrial designer: i think uh that is uh f for rubbers that is uh yeah case material . project manager: that 's just for the case material , user interface: is this for the case ? yes . project manager: so special colours though , we having that , marketing: oh okay , the mm-hmm , mm ' kay . project manager: right ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then we have to interface push buttons . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: scroll wheel , no . integrated scroll wheel , l_c_ display ? user interface: no . marketing: no , project manager: button . marketing: 'cause we did n't put the clock in it after all , right ? project manager: no . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh , button supplement special colour ? user interface: speci yes project manager: special form ? user interface: yes d we do have special form . marketing: yes . project manager: and special material , rubber , wood , yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . total seven point six whatever that means . industrial designer: uh , i think that 's the price . project manager: that 's the price . user interface: one two three four five six seven eight nine project manager: mm ? industrial designer: maybe it is it just n project manager: eight , eight point two . that 's user interface: nine points , project manager: hmm ? user interface: okay , yes . project manager: eight point two , right ? so , we looks like we are well within budget . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . i guess i should save this i suppose , huh ? marketing: yeah . project manager: oops . uh-huh huh huh . user interface: on the desktop . project manager: i just tried that . my documents , computer . industrial designer: ami . project manager: my compu ah oh here it is , yes . industrial designer: ami should for project manager: okay , fine . save . okay good , so that 's the good news . we gon na be popular . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: project manager: um . so that uh i think financing was pretty simple . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: now we would like to have a presentation by the marketing expert on production evaluation . marketing: okay , i 'll take my file down so you can bring it up . 'kay should be able to get it now . 'kay , why do n't you move just to the next slide right away . project manager: you wan na go to the next slide ? marketing: yeah right away . project manager: okay . marketing: okay , well uh obviously my method for uh s m the marketing of this thing is first to ask the big question , will it sell ? and i think we should show this prototype to people from various age and socio-economic groups and see about any fine tuning that maybe little things we have n't thought of . user interface: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: we ca n't accept every suggestion of course , but maybe we just need to get a few . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and show the the prototype to consumer research groups , we do n't s want somebody to suddenly come to us and tell us that this button is toxic and you know some child will swallow it and then we wo n't sell any . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm . marketing: so we have to get some input from those people . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and then after that we just have to go with our best intuition and you know we like it , we think it 's good , we 're gon na get behind it and sell it . um , next slide please . okay , now the things that i was thinking and th my wish list has really been realised in this prototype . i wanted the shape to be biomorphic , i did n't want anything with angles and all square , i wanted it to be comfy and roundy so we we 've got that . the size is small , the colour 's bright and warm which is what we wanted . we wanted the feel to be as soft as possible , we 'll have the soft buttons industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and the way this is shaped , even though it 's gon na be hard plastic , it feels good in your hand so that 's nice . and functionality i put last on my list because people are n't going to use it before they buy it . industrial designer: marketing: so paradoxically the other features , in other words , the look , the feel um and the shape , that 's what people are gon na get in the store . user interface: fee selling . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: they do n't have a television in the store , they ca n't play with it . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um so they 'll be our main selling points . so um th those have been fulfilled by your prototype and go ahead to the next slide please . okay , so um the shape um i think is a a one . that 's really , really excellent shape . the size is small um and th these points are in the importance for the , for the marketing , these are n't i in how i feel . i think that it 's i think that it 's plenty small enough to sell but i think we 're sort of right the scale is one to seven . i think we 're sort of right in the middle as far as c other competitors . user interface: okay . marketing: and our colour i think is great . the colours are bright and warm and we really do great job there . and given um the constraints that we had i think we got it as soft as possible . and then functionality um i think you did a really good job on functionality , obviously we could have ad added different functions but then we 'd disturb something else so i would say that we got to a five out of seven on on functionality . user interface: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so i think that basically we 've got a great product and we can get off and running with it . project manager: um i just realised one thing . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: in the financing there was no room for our voice recogniser . marketing: yes . user interface: yes . marketing: ah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i do n't know how we can evaluate that or how we can include that , too . marketing: well , um we had what , eight eight euros twenty as our cost ? project manager: eight , eight twenty , yes . industrial designer: eight twenty so marketing: and so we 've got we 've still got four euros to go to spend . industrial designer: we have um four euros , yeah project manager: i mean maximum we have another four point three euros i mean four thirty . marketing: mm-hmm . well um that 's project manager: but i mean we have no way of presenting that to management as you know as a f finished , as a finished product and saying okay with the voice recogniser that costs so much . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so um we just have to beware of that . i mean and know whether the four thirty will really cover that . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: well as we know in today 's technic technological world you can do just about anything at any price , the the the problem is quality . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so we 're just gon na have to settle for whatever quality that will buy us . industrial designer: yeah , user interface: yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and um it may not be the greatest quality but it may sell anyway . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , still . marketing: as we 've seen with so many of these kinds of products . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i 'm sorry to interrupt then but i just uh recog i just remembered that there was no that that was not um included uh that there was no room for any special features , okay ? industrial designer: included , yeah . hmm , user interface: yeah mm . industrial designer: hmm project manager: so to beware of that . you wan na go to this next slide , marketing expert ? marketing: uh , well i is n't this my last slide ? project manager: i dunno . marketing: maybe . project manager: yes it is . mm-hmm . marketing: go ahead . i think that was my last slide , yeah . um . mm okay . and i 'm supposed to present this scale on the whiteboard . um and we 're supposed to talk about those things as a team now , so if you put my last slide back up there . project manager: oh . marketing: i 'm sorry i 've um forgot to do that , um . project manager: why ? wh why you need that up ? marketing: hmm ? well because i ca n't remember what i put on there . okay . industrial designer: marketing: now i 'm supposed to see how long my leash is here . project manager: i think you can make it there . marketing: mm 'kay . you ready . so now we 're all supposed to say what we think . um okay so on shape i gave it a one . wait what would you ra uh one being good and seven being the worst . user interface: worse , okay . marketing: um what do you think the shape is ? user interface: one . marketing: one , okay , and be betsy ? project manager: yes i think uh shape is one . industrial designer: yeah , even my yeah , shape is one . marketing: okay , uh-huh one , okay . and how about on size ? on size project manager: you you gave it a four . marketing: i gave it a four , yeah , i feel it 's just average . project manager: um , i dunno . i think i would give it at least a two . marketing: okay . user interface: one . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , even i think it is one . it 's quite small . marketing: okay . okay user interface: marketing: you 're the designer , of course you wan na give it a one . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um and then how about how we doing on colour ? project manager: colour uh i marketing: colour , i gave it a one . project manager: one . marketing: i really like all those nice bright , warm colours . project manager: i i like the colours . one . user interface: one . yes . marketing: one . industrial designer: yeah , one . marketing: one , one , one , okay . and how about the feel ? taking into um consideration texture and comfort in the hand . project manager: uh , i think i would give it a two . marketing: okay , i gave it a three , two , user interface: i 'll give three . marketing: yeah ? three . industrial designer: uh maybe two , marketing: two , okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and the next is functionality where i i admit i was a little hard on our team here , but project manager: well it 's also you ca n't really try it out uh the other things you have have more is are more tangible so from that point of view marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: but um i 'll give it a three . marketing: okay . user interface: two . marketing: two , okay . industrial designer: uh three , mm-hmm . marketing: three ? okay . well , um . it looks like we 've got got ourselves a pretty good product . um the functionality 's the only place where maybe we have to think about m m maybe , heaven forbid , having another meeting . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but um otherwise i think we 're we 're ready to go to go with this product . anybody else have any other comments or any other things that we feel we should evaluate ? project manager: uh . here is what we looking at uh satisfaction on for example room for creativity . um . is there more room for creativity or are we absolutely happy ? user interface: we can always improve , yes . industrial designer: maybe we can yeah , include some more buttons and uh um user interface: yes , features . industrial designer: yeah features . we can make the buttons few buttons smaller . uh i think they are quite big , so i think i i mean we can just have small buttons and more buttons in that case . if we want to have more features than that . marketing: mm-hmm . well then again if we 're gon na um do the speech recognition thing we 're gon there gon na be some buttons that are gon na have to be added for that for the recording of the the speech . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , definitely . user interface: yes . voices . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so that that 's where we 're gon na have to do maybe we can eliminate one of the mute buttons , instead of having two mute buttons . industrial designer: yeah , definitely , yeah , two mu mute buttons . user interface: yes . yes . marketing: and um then maybe we can do something with the um the volume control . maybe we can put that all on one button . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: um and a couple of other th maybe comp uh consolidate some of the usage an and see what we can do with that . project manager: y um al always bearing in mind that right now we are of course well within the budget industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and maybe project manager: and that we still you know we probably ca n't , with this particular item , we probably ca n't just uh add a whole lot of more things . marketing: mm-hmm . no . project manager: uh um we need uh you know we need to leave space money-wise for the voice recogniser . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so th the question really is how do we feel with the project process ? uh , um are we happy with the creativity that has passed here or we 're not happy with the new product we created or that was created ? uh i think personally i think uh i 'm pretty happy . marketing: i 'm pretty happy with it too , yeah um , project manager: um an industrial designer: even i 'm happy . marketing: it 's something i think i can market . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and then the next question is are we happy with the leadership of this project ? uh marketing: i think you 've done a good job , miss leader . user interface: yes , yes you 've done a good job . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , definitely . project manager: and i think team work i think was very very good , i think we really industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah i d i do too i think we worked well together as a team , yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i think we are we happy with the means we used ? we used whiteboard , we did n't use digital p well digital pens i guess are these things . marketing: yeah maybe we could 've used the whiteboard a little bit more , yeah , user interface: whiteboard more , yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah , probably . marketing: we did n't use that enough . project manager: yes , we could . uh , it 's maybe not in the best position in the room um you know like sometimes it 's positioned so that it 's much better visible for everybody and i think from that point of view we sort of ignored it a little bit . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: and we used the slide because it was better positioned . project manager: yes , i think so , i think absolutely , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: no . marketing: mm i think that 's true mm-hmm . project manager: and fortunately we all had slides presentation which made it a little easier . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um did we new did we find new ideas ? user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think we did . industrial designer: yeah , many . marketing: i think we were we were very good , yeah , mm . project manager: i think we we did , uh in more than one respect and uh so i think we did very well here . marketing: mm-hmm . okay . project manager: are the costs within budget ? yes , yes . uh is the project evaluated ? yes . marketing: yes , yes . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um then celebration . marketing: celebration . user interface: cel celebration yes , yes . industrial designer: ah . marketing: today we have apple juice and after we sell m million of 'em we have champagne . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: so i i thank you all very much . um , i think this was very good and um industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think we did come up with a new product that 's uh feasible . feasible from the production point of view and feasible from a marketing point of view . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: so , thank you . marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: thank you . industrial designer: thank you very much . marketing: okay . watch i i have my cord behind you here . user interface: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: i always get it on here , but getting it off is industrial designer: do we do we have some time left ? uh you have user interface: they say it 's forty minutes . project manager: ah yes we have time later marketing: but we we were told we could end the final meeting at any time , whenever we felt we were finished . project manager: but we do n't user interface: okay . industrial designer: oh , alright . marketing: it 'll take me the rest of the time to get my microphone out from my necklace . oh , there we go .

features of the remote include signal-emitting led , on-off switch , mute button , nine channel buttons , two buttons for increasing or decreasing volume , two buttons for scrolling up or down channels and menu button at the centre , which would control the colour , sharpness , brightness etc . also , there would be an elongated shaped swapping button that was slightly flexible . if it was turned to the left , the tv would change to the previous channel that the user was watching and if to the right , the next channel . the remote has an inbuilt voice recognizer that would recognize the user 's voice and act accordingly .

what was the feedback regarding the prototype of the remote ? </s> project manager: well hi everyone again . user interface: hello . industrial designer: hello . marketing: hello project manager: um like before we uh i have to redo the meetings from n th the minutes from the last meeting marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and so here we go . uh it was discussed in the last meeting uh which was opened by the presentation from the interface um designer that uh looks would be very important on this new remote user interface: designer . marketing: project manager: and um it is to send messages of course to the tv . it should have nine channel buttons , a next button , volume buttons , subtitle buttons , switch to control features , colour contrast , sharpness etcetera . it should have a memory switch , a mute button in case the telephone rings or something . uh speech recognition is one of her very f favourite personal uh features she would like see d d to be integrated in this um in this new remote . um . should be child friendly design with few buttons , colourful maybe with s star shaped or other shaped buttons . um she uh presented also an oversized remote which she guarantees nobody will ever be able to lose . user interface: project manager: um marketing: and she was challenged on that point project manager: that 's right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: project manager: but uh her very f personal favourite really she , she would very much like to see a speech recogniser integrated in this remote . the industrial designer um presented her uh thoughts on the issue . she would like a special case made out of plastic that is very strong , not using any harmful materials , should be recyclable and should be colourful . should have an integrated circuit board that 's highly sophisticated and temperature resistant . she would like to see a timer and or alarm facility integrated . uh technically this thing would also have a resistor and a capacitor , diode transistor , resonator , and if possible a rechargeable battery . uh and of course a circuit board . and how it would works , you press the button , the chip is morse morse code related relays the uh to the generat to the generator amplification and uh the circuit board is very inexpensive to build and so she thinks this is a great feature uh to to to consider . marketing: okay . project manager: she would like uh this whole thing should be push buttons with a simple chip uh scrolling method is more expensive and not that practical anymore . should be battery operated and of course she would have the special cases . the marketing expert uh who has to finally come up with to to to market this product has been watching the competition , has done some research on the internet and also has used h her personal observations to come up with the fact that such a remote sh should be small , easy to use and it should be eye catching . from her point of view of course one of the most important facts is that we should get to market before our competition does . to do that uh maybe one or two features should be developed on which we could dwell on or in other words on which our campaign could be built on . too many new features or too many points would only confuse matter . so we prefer to have one or two features that can be really uh driven home . um it should have a fruit and vegetable design and should have a soft feel . she feels that 's really what people want today . and the decision that we took last time was that uh the special feature we would like to see is a speech recogniser , the energy should be battery uh should be on a chip , should be trendy design , compact and strong , and should have buttons . and that concludes the presentation from the last minutes from the last meeting . now uh we are ready for the presentation of the prototype . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: just the look like , the button part i 'll explain . industrial designer: yeah . uh so this is our what uh we have made . this is a model of the remote control which we are going to build . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh this is us in a snail shape so uh it it is attractive marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and it 's it 's blue in colour uh bright and uh it has yellow buttons and all the different colour buttons marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so it is a uh uh a looks-wise it is beautiful . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh and also compact in shape . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh um and also i it it will be easily fit into into the hands and you can access all the buttons easily . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . good . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: industrial designer: oops , sorry . marketing: you used to have all the buttons user interface: industrial designer: um yeah and um uh the material which we are going to use for the case is uh plastic and uh w which which is s strong um uh and also uh for the um the material is plastic and uh for the buttons it is uh s soft rubber um and als marketing: oh that 's good , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: no , that 's nice and friendly . industrial designer: yeah because uh uh you 'll be touching the buttons more so it is soft when you touch it . marketing: mm-hmm . mm . project manager: mm-hmm , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then um uh for the for the led , for the light emitting diode it is a fluorescent green marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and it 's a a it is a bulb like an ordinary infrared . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and and the button button 's part uh will be explained by f francina . user interface: okay . marketing: okay . user interface: now the um we decided upon including certain features on our remote . now these features includes the s um signal emitting uh signal it 's the led or l_e_d_ the infrared . project manager: mm-hmm , marketing: yeah , okay , mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: now uh we have included the switch on and off button . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: now we have included another feature that is the mute button marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: on the side of the model . then we have included one to nine buttons marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: for controlling the programmes the different channels . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we have also included two buttons for increasing or decreasing the volume . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and we have also included two buttons for scrolling up and scrolling down the programme channels . now our our model also contains a button which is called as the menu button . marketing: mm . project manager: what kind of button ? user interface: menu button . project manager: menu ? uh menu th menu , uh one one . user interface: yes , menu marketing: menu button . user interface: at the centre marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we have included a button which is fluorescent green colour and this is the menu button which will control the colour , sharpness , brightness marketing: mm-hmm . of the screen . mm , mm-hmm . user interface: of this uh picture . we have also included a button which is called as the swapping button . now this is uh a special , special feature which we have included . now this button is an elongated shaped button and this is slightly flexible so if it is turned towards the right it will take to the previous channel , if it is turned towards the right it will take to the next channel . it will take the user to the previous and the next channel so this is a swapping button . marketing: the next channel in the numeric pattern , or user interface: no , swapping is if if example you 're you 're watching the second channel and then you go to the tenth channel and if you want to go back to the second channel you can swap , this button . marketing: yeah , mm-hmm . mm . user interface: yes . marketing: okay , okay . user interface: and at the end , it this remote has inbuilt voice recogniser which c which will recognise the user 's voice and then it 'll act accordingly . project manager: okay . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: so this is our proposed model . marketing: okay . user interface: now the marketing expert has to marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: tell , yeah . user interface: give her suggestion whether it 'll be sellable or it 'll be cost effective . industrial designer: marketing: okay , well um what what i really like a lot about it is that you can reach the whole thing with one thumb , user interface: yes , yes . marketing: that you can really hold it in one h you do n't need two hands industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and it 's easily reachable even for somebody with a small hand , yeah ? project manager: yes the buttons are all raised , right ? marketing: the buttons are all raised project manager: are raised , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: and if you hold it in the centre of your hand you can even reach it over here so you do n't have to turn it around , turn it upside down , move it up , up and down , project manager: right . or have two hands to operate it , yeah . marketing: i really like that . user interface: mm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: you really did a good job on that , my little designers . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um and um i like the idea that the on-off button is in a really prominent place . that 's that 's a really good good thing . project manager: yes , and it sort of sticks up so that you really marketing: yeah , that 's great . project manager: you do n't have to g first go like oh yeah here it 's on and yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: abs okay . marketing: the colour 's very attractive . um the um these buttons uh around here are the mute user interface: no , these the front buttons which are here , are the mute buttons . marketing: and these mm-hmm on both sides they 're mute ? user interface: yes , yes . marketing: so you can push either one ? user interface: yes . marketing: okay . project manager: so if you 're left-handed or right-handed it does n't matter . marketing: and this brings the menu up on the screen ? user interface: pardon me ? this is the menu yes , yes . marketing: this brings the menu up on the screen and the orange ones are user interface: a the the these these two are th to increase or decrease the volumes , marketing: okay . user interface: and these two are to uh scroll the programme channels . marketing: f f okay . user interface: scroll up or scroll down the channels . marketing: right , very good . uh it looks mm looks like something i can sell . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: okay and now i 'm supposed to project manager: well , i have one question marketing: yeah . project manager: uh will there be anything written on the buttons , like that people know , or they have to learn that from a piece of paper which button does what ? user interface: yes , it will have uh these buttons will have the numbers and all the rest of the buttons will have symbols . industrial designer: ah . yeah , definitely . project manager: will have symbols so that that that the user really knows you know and does n't have to first learn it user interface: yes , which can be easily recognised . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: good point because we need the symbols 'cause we 're going into an international market we ca n't have anything that 's language dependent . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah of course , and also user interface: yes . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: yeah . but anyway it would ha i i i it has to have some kind of of symbols , text or something so that people kn industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah we can text . marketing: symbols on it . mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . industrial designer: text that we can have on the case itself , project manager: that 's right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: we can it will be printed on the case and symbols as well as the buttons . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , yeah just wanted make sure of that mm-hmm . user interface: and and one more feature is we we have a holder for this remote which is an oyster shape . marketing: mm , 'kay , mm . mm-hmm . user interface: a shell shape . marketing: for the snail , yeah , mm-hmm , project manager: right , mm-hmm . user interface: yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah . so it is marketing: we have the snail shell . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yes , snail shell . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: he goes right back into his shell . industrial designer: yeah shell . project manager: right . user interface: yes . marketing: well you know i think we could do something really funny with this too because the snail is known to be slow industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and we could have some sort of little comic effect on our marketing about how this is a rapid snail or something like that user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm . user interface: y yes industrial designer: yeah , of course , yeah . marketing: you know that would , that would really work . project manager: now what , what are our special features for the marketing ? marketing: so project manager: that 's really the voice recognition that 's really unusual marketing: i think voice recognition is our big selling point industrial designer: mm . mm-hmm . marketing: 'cause nobody else seems to have that in in this price range . industrial designer: mm . project manager: and then , and then the other thing would basically be sh shape or practicality of use . marketing: yep project manager: you know . marketing: uh well i think that everybody 's gon na say their remote control is practical . i think we have to , we have to dwell on on on the appearance . project manager: colours . mm-hmm . marketing: we 're really gon na have the be the project manager: cutest . marketing: cutest remote control on the block . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm . marketing: so i think we have to play with the image , play with the snail image um play with the visual and then the voice recognition . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: i think those are the two things to push . the look and the voice recognition . they 're gon na be our two selling points . project manager: okay , now uh having said that marketing: i 'm supposed to make a little presentation , are n't i ? project manager: no , now this was our evaluation criteria which we uh just have done . marketing: okay . project manager: now we 're gon na talk about financing . marketing: ah , but in my instructions i think it said i was supposed to go to the board and do something . project manager: well , there is a production evaluation . marketing: no ? project manager: is that you ? marketing: yeah , that 's me . project manager: but that 's after the financing . marketing: oh , okay . project manager: see ? fi see ? marketing: sorry , sorry . mm-mm . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: um . okay , we had looks and voice recognition . okay now on the financing we bring up the mm there it is . okay uh energy source we say that 's battery , right ? industrial designer: mm . marketing: that 's right . project manager: okay , now . so we i guess we use one . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: what ? t cell or chart you are trying to change is protected . well , that 's nice . she told me i could just ch change it here and then it would it does n't work . hmm . marketing: can you just fill it in in the yellow boxes ? or project manager: oh , okay yeah , okay , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: let 's see . okay , one , okay . user interface: yes . project manager: oh go away . um kinetic source so that 's in the energy source that 's all we need . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: uh electronics , simple chip on print ? is that 's what we 're using ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: one of those ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: come on . okay , one . uh regular chip on print . no . that 's all we need , the one industrial designer: no . yeah . project manager: case , uncurved flat , single curved , double curved . marketing: well . industrial designer: this is a user interface: single curve ? mm . marketing: i guess it 's double curved . project manager: double curved ? one of those ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: case materi s supplements . plastic we said , right ? user interface: plastic . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh wood , rubber ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: rubber , because we 're gon na have the soft buttons . project manager: uh but , yes but industrial designer: i think uh that is uh f for rubbers that is uh yeah case material . project manager: that 's just for the case material , user interface: is this for the case ? yes . project manager: so special colours though , we having that , marketing: oh okay , the mm-hmm , mm ' kay . project manager: right ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then we have to interface push buttons . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: scroll wheel , no . integrated scroll wheel , l_c_ display ? user interface: no . marketing: no , project manager: button . marketing: 'cause we did n't put the clock in it after all , right ? project manager: no . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh , button supplement special colour ? user interface: speci yes project manager: special form ? user interface: yes d we do have special form . marketing: yes . project manager: and special material , rubber , wood , yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . total seven point six whatever that means . industrial designer: uh , i think that 's the price . project manager: that 's the price . user interface: one two three four five six seven eight nine project manager: mm ? industrial designer: maybe it is it just n project manager: eight , eight point two . that 's user interface: nine points , project manager: hmm ? user interface: okay , yes . project manager: eight point two , right ? so , we looks like we are well within budget . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . i guess i should save this i suppose , huh ? marketing: yeah . project manager: oops . uh-huh huh huh . user interface: on the desktop . project manager: i just tried that . my documents , computer . industrial designer: ami . project manager: my compu ah oh here it is , yes . industrial designer: ami should for project manager: okay , fine . save . okay good , so that 's the good news . we gon na be popular . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: project manager: um . so that uh i think financing was pretty simple . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: now we would like to have a presentation by the marketing expert on production evaluation . marketing: okay , i 'll take my file down so you can bring it up . 'kay should be able to get it now . 'kay , why do n't you move just to the next slide right away . project manager: you wan na go to the next slide ? marketing: yeah right away . project manager: okay . marketing: okay , well uh obviously my method for uh s m the marketing of this thing is first to ask the big question , will it sell ? and i think we should show this prototype to people from various age and socio-economic groups and see about any fine tuning that maybe little things we have n't thought of . user interface: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: we ca n't accept every suggestion of course , but maybe we just need to get a few . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and show the the prototype to consumer research groups , we do n't s want somebody to suddenly come to us and tell us that this button is toxic and you know some child will swallow it and then we wo n't sell any . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm . marketing: so we have to get some input from those people . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and then after that we just have to go with our best intuition and you know we like it , we think it 's good , we 're gon na get behind it and sell it . um , next slide please . okay , now the things that i was thinking and th my wish list has really been realised in this prototype . i wanted the shape to be biomorphic , i did n't want anything with angles and all square , i wanted it to be comfy and roundy so we we 've got that . the size is small , the colour 's bright and warm which is what we wanted . we wanted the feel to be as soft as possible , we 'll have the soft buttons industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and the way this is shaped , even though it 's gon na be hard plastic , it feels good in your hand so that 's nice . and functionality i put last on my list because people are n't going to use it before they buy it . industrial designer: marketing: so paradoxically the other features , in other words , the look , the feel um and the shape , that 's what people are gon na get in the store . user interface: fee selling . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: they do n't have a television in the store , they ca n't play with it . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um so they 'll be our main selling points . so um th those have been fulfilled by your prototype and go ahead to the next slide please . okay , so um the shape um i think is a a one . that 's really , really excellent shape . the size is small um and th these points are in the importance for the , for the marketing , these are n't i in how i feel . i think that it 's i think that it 's plenty small enough to sell but i think we 're sort of right the scale is one to seven . i think we 're sort of right in the middle as far as c other competitors . user interface: okay . marketing: and our colour i think is great . the colours are bright and warm and we really do great job there . and given um the constraints that we had i think we got it as soft as possible . and then functionality um i think you did a really good job on functionality , obviously we could have ad added different functions but then we 'd disturb something else so i would say that we got to a five out of seven on on functionality . user interface: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so i think that basically we 've got a great product and we can get off and running with it . project manager: um i just realised one thing . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: in the financing there was no room for our voice recogniser . marketing: yes . user interface: yes . marketing: ah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i do n't know how we can evaluate that or how we can include that , too . marketing: well , um we had what , eight eight euros twenty as our cost ? project manager: eight , eight twenty , yes . industrial designer: eight twenty so marketing: and so we 've got we 've still got four euros to go to spend . industrial designer: we have um four euros , yeah project manager: i mean maximum we have another four point three euros i mean four thirty . marketing: mm-hmm . well um that 's project manager: but i mean we have no way of presenting that to management as you know as a f finished , as a finished product and saying okay with the voice recogniser that costs so much . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so um we just have to beware of that . i mean and know whether the four thirty will really cover that . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: well as we know in today 's technic technological world you can do just about anything at any price , the the the problem is quality . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so we 're just gon na have to settle for whatever quality that will buy us . industrial designer: yeah , user interface: yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and um it may not be the greatest quality but it may sell anyway . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , still . marketing: as we 've seen with so many of these kinds of products . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i 'm sorry to interrupt then but i just uh recog i just remembered that there was no that that was not um included uh that there was no room for any special features , okay ? industrial designer: included , yeah . hmm , user interface: yeah mm . industrial designer: hmm project manager: so to beware of that . you wan na go to this next slide , marketing expert ? marketing: uh , well i is n't this my last slide ? project manager: i dunno . marketing: maybe . project manager: yes it is . mm-hmm . marketing: go ahead . i think that was my last slide , yeah . um . mm okay . and i 'm supposed to present this scale on the whiteboard . um and we 're supposed to talk about those things as a team now , so if you put my last slide back up there . project manager: oh . marketing: i 'm sorry i 've um forgot to do that , um . project manager: why ? wh why you need that up ? marketing: hmm ? well because i ca n't remember what i put on there . okay . industrial designer: marketing: now i 'm supposed to see how long my leash is here . project manager: i think you can make it there . marketing: mm 'kay . you ready . so now we 're all supposed to say what we think . um okay so on shape i gave it a one . wait what would you ra uh one being good and seven being the worst . user interface: worse , okay . marketing: um what do you think the shape is ? user interface: one . marketing: one , okay , and be betsy ? project manager: yes i think uh shape is one . industrial designer: yeah , even my yeah , shape is one . marketing: okay , uh-huh one , okay . and how about on size ? on size project manager: you you gave it a four . marketing: i gave it a four , yeah , i feel it 's just average . project manager: um , i dunno . i think i would give it at least a two . marketing: okay . user interface: one . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , even i think it is one . it 's quite small . marketing: okay . okay user interface: marketing: you 're the designer , of course you wan na give it a one . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um and then how about how we doing on colour ? project manager: colour uh i marketing: colour , i gave it a one . project manager: one . marketing: i really like all those nice bright , warm colours . project manager: i i like the colours . one . user interface: one . yes . marketing: one . industrial designer: yeah , one . marketing: one , one , one , okay . and how about the feel ? taking into um consideration texture and comfort in the hand . project manager: uh , i think i would give it a two . marketing: okay , i gave it a three , two , user interface: i 'll give three . marketing: yeah ? three . industrial designer: uh maybe two , marketing: two , okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and the next is functionality where i i admit i was a little hard on our team here , but project manager: well it 's also you ca n't really try it out uh the other things you have have more is are more tangible so from that point of view marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: but um i 'll give it a three . marketing: okay . user interface: two . marketing: two , okay . industrial designer: uh three , mm-hmm . marketing: three ? okay . well , um . it looks like we 've got got ourselves a pretty good product . um the functionality 's the only place where maybe we have to think about m m maybe , heaven forbid , having another meeting . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but um otherwise i think we 're we 're ready to go to go with this product . anybody else have any other comments or any other things that we feel we should evaluate ? project manager: uh . here is what we looking at uh satisfaction on for example room for creativity . um . is there more room for creativity or are we absolutely happy ? user interface: we can always improve , yes . industrial designer: maybe we can yeah , include some more buttons and uh um user interface: yes , features . industrial designer: yeah features . we can make the buttons few buttons smaller . uh i think they are quite big , so i think i i mean we can just have small buttons and more buttons in that case . if we want to have more features than that . marketing: mm-hmm . well then again if we 're gon na um do the speech recognition thing we 're gon there gon na be some buttons that are gon na have to be added for that for the recording of the the speech . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , definitely . user interface: yes . voices . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so that that 's where we 're gon na have to do maybe we can eliminate one of the mute buttons , instead of having two mute buttons . industrial designer: yeah , definitely , yeah , two mu mute buttons . user interface: yes . yes . marketing: and um then maybe we can do something with the um the volume control . maybe we can put that all on one button . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: um and a couple of other th maybe comp uh consolidate some of the usage an and see what we can do with that . project manager: y um al always bearing in mind that right now we are of course well within the budget industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and maybe project manager: and that we still you know we probably ca n't , with this particular item , we probably ca n't just uh add a whole lot of more things . marketing: mm-hmm . no . project manager: uh um we need uh you know we need to leave space money-wise for the voice recogniser . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so th the question really is how do we feel with the project process ? uh , um are we happy with the creativity that has passed here or we 're not happy with the new product we created or that was created ? uh i think personally i think uh i 'm pretty happy . marketing: i 'm pretty happy with it too , yeah um , project manager: um an industrial designer: even i 'm happy . marketing: it 's something i think i can market . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and then the next question is are we happy with the leadership of this project ? uh marketing: i think you 've done a good job , miss leader . user interface: yes , yes you 've done a good job . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , definitely . project manager: and i think team work i think was very very good , i think we really industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah i d i do too i think we worked well together as a team , yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i think we are we happy with the means we used ? we used whiteboard , we did n't use digital p well digital pens i guess are these things . marketing: yeah maybe we could 've used the whiteboard a little bit more , yeah , user interface: whiteboard more , yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah , probably . marketing: we did n't use that enough . project manager: yes , we could . uh , it 's maybe not in the best position in the room um you know like sometimes it 's positioned so that it 's much better visible for everybody and i think from that point of view we sort of ignored it a little bit . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: and we used the slide because it was better positioned . project manager: yes , i think so , i think absolutely , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: no . marketing: mm i think that 's true mm-hmm . project manager: and fortunately we all had slides presentation which made it a little easier . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um did we new did we find new ideas ? user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think we did . industrial designer: yeah , many . marketing: i think we were we were very good , yeah , mm . project manager: i think we we did , uh in more than one respect and uh so i think we did very well here . marketing: mm-hmm . okay . project manager: are the costs within budget ? yes , yes . uh is the project evaluated ? yes . marketing: yes , yes . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um then celebration . marketing: celebration . user interface: cel celebration yes , yes . industrial designer: ah . marketing: today we have apple juice and after we sell m million of 'em we have champagne . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: so i i thank you all very much . um , i think this was very good and um industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think we did come up with a new product that 's uh feasible . feasible from the production point of view and feasible from a marketing point of view . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: so , thank you . marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: thank you . industrial designer: thank you very much . marketing: okay . watch i i have my cord behind you here . user interface: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: i always get it on here , but getting it off is industrial designer: do we do we have some time left ? uh you have user interface: they say it 's forty minutes . project manager: ah yes we have time later marketing: but we we were told we could end the final meeting at any time , whenever we felt we were finished . project manager: but we do n't user interface: okay . industrial designer: oh , alright . marketing: it 'll take me the rest of the time to get my microphone out from my necklace . oh , there we go .

marketing liked how users could reach all the buttons with one thumb , even for someone with a small hand , so users did not need to shift it around or operate with two hands . also , it was good that the on-off button was in a prominent place and the colours of the remote were attractive . mute buttons were on either side so it would work for left- or right-handed people . on the other hand , channel buttons would be inscribed with numbers and the rest would be marked with easily recognized symbols that would be ideal for the international market .

what did marketing suggest during giving feedback for the prototype of the remote ? </s> project manager: well hi everyone again . user interface: hello . industrial designer: hello . marketing: hello project manager: um like before we uh i have to redo the meetings from n th the minutes from the last meeting marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and so here we go . uh it was discussed in the last meeting uh which was opened by the presentation from the interface um designer that uh looks would be very important on this new remote user interface: designer . marketing: project manager: and um it is to send messages of course to the tv . it should have nine channel buttons , a next button , volume buttons , subtitle buttons , switch to control features , colour contrast , sharpness etcetera . it should have a memory switch , a mute button in case the telephone rings or something . uh speech recognition is one of her very f favourite personal uh features she would like see d d to be integrated in this um in this new remote . um . should be child friendly design with few buttons , colourful maybe with s star shaped or other shaped buttons . um she uh presented also an oversized remote which she guarantees nobody will ever be able to lose . user interface: project manager: um marketing: and she was challenged on that point project manager: that 's right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: project manager: but uh her very f personal favourite really she , she would very much like to see a speech recogniser integrated in this remote . the industrial designer um presented her uh thoughts on the issue . she would like a special case made out of plastic that is very strong , not using any harmful materials , should be recyclable and should be colourful . should have an integrated circuit board that 's highly sophisticated and temperature resistant . she would like to see a timer and or alarm facility integrated . uh technically this thing would also have a resistor and a capacitor , diode transistor , resonator , and if possible a rechargeable battery . uh and of course a circuit board . and how it would works , you press the button , the chip is morse morse code related relays the uh to the generat to the generator amplification and uh the circuit board is very inexpensive to build and so she thinks this is a great feature uh to to to consider . marketing: okay . project manager: she would like uh this whole thing should be push buttons with a simple chip uh scrolling method is more expensive and not that practical anymore . should be battery operated and of course she would have the special cases . the marketing expert uh who has to finally come up with to to to market this product has been watching the competition , has done some research on the internet and also has used h her personal observations to come up with the fact that such a remote sh should be small , easy to use and it should be eye catching . from her point of view of course one of the most important facts is that we should get to market before our competition does . to do that uh maybe one or two features should be developed on which we could dwell on or in other words on which our campaign could be built on . too many new features or too many points would only confuse matter . so we prefer to have one or two features that can be really uh driven home . um it should have a fruit and vegetable design and should have a soft feel . she feels that 's really what people want today . and the decision that we took last time was that uh the special feature we would like to see is a speech recogniser , the energy should be battery uh should be on a chip , should be trendy design , compact and strong , and should have buttons . and that concludes the presentation from the last minutes from the last meeting . now uh we are ready for the presentation of the prototype . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: just the look like , the button part i 'll explain . industrial designer: yeah . uh so this is our what uh we have made . this is a model of the remote control which we are going to build . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh this is us in a snail shape so uh it it is attractive marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and it 's it 's blue in colour uh bright and uh it has yellow buttons and all the different colour buttons marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so it is a uh uh a looks-wise it is beautiful . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh and also compact in shape . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh um and also i it it will be easily fit into into the hands and you can access all the buttons easily . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . good . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: industrial designer: oops , sorry . marketing: you used to have all the buttons user interface: industrial designer: um yeah and um uh the material which we are going to use for the case is uh plastic and uh w which which is s strong um uh and also uh for the um the material is plastic and uh for the buttons it is uh s soft rubber um and als marketing: oh that 's good , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: no , that 's nice and friendly . industrial designer: yeah because uh uh you 'll be touching the buttons more so it is soft when you touch it . marketing: mm-hmm . mm . project manager: mm-hmm , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then um uh for the for the led , for the light emitting diode it is a fluorescent green marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and it 's a a it is a bulb like an ordinary infrared . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and and the button button 's part uh will be explained by f francina . user interface: okay . marketing: okay . user interface: now the um we decided upon including certain features on our remote . now these features includes the s um signal emitting uh signal it 's the led or l_e_d_ the infrared . project manager: mm-hmm , marketing: yeah , okay , mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: now uh we have included the switch on and off button . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: now we have included another feature that is the mute button marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: on the side of the model . then we have included one to nine buttons marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: for controlling the programmes the different channels . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we have also included two buttons for increasing or decreasing the volume . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and we have also included two buttons for scrolling up and scrolling down the programme channels . now our our model also contains a button which is called as the menu button . marketing: mm . project manager: what kind of button ? user interface: menu button . project manager: menu ? uh menu th menu , uh one one . user interface: yes , menu marketing: menu button . user interface: at the centre marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we have included a button which is fluorescent green colour and this is the menu button which will control the colour , sharpness , brightness marketing: mm-hmm . of the screen . mm , mm-hmm . user interface: of this uh picture . we have also included a button which is called as the swapping button . now this is uh a special , special feature which we have included . now this button is an elongated shaped button and this is slightly flexible so if it is turned towards the right it will take to the previous channel , if it is turned towards the right it will take to the next channel . it will take the user to the previous and the next channel so this is a swapping button . marketing: the next channel in the numeric pattern , or user interface: no , swapping is if if example you 're you 're watching the second channel and then you go to the tenth channel and if you want to go back to the second channel you can swap , this button . marketing: yeah , mm-hmm . mm . user interface: yes . marketing: okay , okay . user interface: and at the end , it this remote has inbuilt voice recogniser which c which will recognise the user 's voice and then it 'll act accordingly . project manager: okay . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: so this is our proposed model . marketing: okay . user interface: now the marketing expert has to marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: tell , yeah . user interface: give her suggestion whether it 'll be sellable or it 'll be cost effective . industrial designer: marketing: okay , well um what what i really like a lot about it is that you can reach the whole thing with one thumb , user interface: yes , yes . marketing: that you can really hold it in one h you do n't need two hands industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and it 's easily reachable even for somebody with a small hand , yeah ? project manager: yes the buttons are all raised , right ? marketing: the buttons are all raised project manager: are raised , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: and if you hold it in the centre of your hand you can even reach it over here so you do n't have to turn it around , turn it upside down , move it up , up and down , project manager: right . or have two hands to operate it , yeah . marketing: i really like that . user interface: mm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: you really did a good job on that , my little designers . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um and um i like the idea that the on-off button is in a really prominent place . that 's that 's a really good good thing . project manager: yes , and it sort of sticks up so that you really marketing: yeah , that 's great . project manager: you do n't have to g first go like oh yeah here it 's on and yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: abs okay . marketing: the colour 's very attractive . um the um these buttons uh around here are the mute user interface: no , these the front buttons which are here , are the mute buttons . marketing: and these mm-hmm on both sides they 're mute ? user interface: yes , yes . marketing: so you can push either one ? user interface: yes . marketing: okay . project manager: so if you 're left-handed or right-handed it does n't matter . marketing: and this brings the menu up on the screen ? user interface: pardon me ? this is the menu yes , yes . marketing: this brings the menu up on the screen and the orange ones are user interface: a the the these these two are th to increase or decrease the volumes , marketing: okay . user interface: and these two are to uh scroll the programme channels . marketing: f f okay . user interface: scroll up or scroll down the channels . marketing: right , very good . uh it looks mm looks like something i can sell . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: okay and now i 'm supposed to project manager: well , i have one question marketing: yeah . project manager: uh will there be anything written on the buttons , like that people know , or they have to learn that from a piece of paper which button does what ? user interface: yes , it will have uh these buttons will have the numbers and all the rest of the buttons will have symbols . industrial designer: ah . yeah , definitely . project manager: will have symbols so that that that the user really knows you know and does n't have to first learn it user interface: yes , which can be easily recognised . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: good point because we need the symbols 'cause we 're going into an international market we ca n't have anything that 's language dependent . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah of course , and also user interface: yes . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: yeah . but anyway it would ha i i i it has to have some kind of of symbols , text or something so that people kn industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah we can text . marketing: symbols on it . mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . industrial designer: text that we can have on the case itself , project manager: that 's right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: we can it will be printed on the case and symbols as well as the buttons . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , yeah just wanted make sure of that mm-hmm . user interface: and and one more feature is we we have a holder for this remote which is an oyster shape . marketing: mm , 'kay , mm . mm-hmm . user interface: a shell shape . marketing: for the snail , yeah , mm-hmm , project manager: right , mm-hmm . user interface: yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah . so it is marketing: we have the snail shell . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yes , snail shell . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: he goes right back into his shell . industrial designer: yeah shell . project manager: right . user interface: yes . marketing: well you know i think we could do something really funny with this too because the snail is known to be slow industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and we could have some sort of little comic effect on our marketing about how this is a rapid snail or something like that user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm . user interface: y yes industrial designer: yeah , of course , yeah . marketing: you know that would , that would really work . project manager: now what , what are our special features for the marketing ? marketing: so project manager: that 's really the voice recognition that 's really unusual marketing: i think voice recognition is our big selling point industrial designer: mm . mm-hmm . marketing: 'cause nobody else seems to have that in in this price range . industrial designer: mm . project manager: and then , and then the other thing would basically be sh shape or practicality of use . marketing: yep project manager: you know . marketing: uh well i think that everybody 's gon na say their remote control is practical . i think we have to , we have to dwell on on on the appearance . project manager: colours . mm-hmm . marketing: we 're really gon na have the be the project manager: cutest . marketing: cutest remote control on the block . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm . marketing: so i think we have to play with the image , play with the snail image um play with the visual and then the voice recognition . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: i think those are the two things to push . the look and the voice recognition . they 're gon na be our two selling points . project manager: okay , now uh having said that marketing: i 'm supposed to make a little presentation , are n't i ? project manager: no , now this was our evaluation criteria which we uh just have done . marketing: okay . project manager: now we 're gon na talk about financing . marketing: ah , but in my instructions i think it said i was supposed to go to the board and do something . project manager: well , there is a production evaluation . marketing: no ? project manager: is that you ? marketing: yeah , that 's me . project manager: but that 's after the financing . marketing: oh , okay . project manager: see ? fi see ? marketing: sorry , sorry . mm-mm . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: um . okay , we had looks and voice recognition . okay now on the financing we bring up the mm there it is . okay uh energy source we say that 's battery , right ? industrial designer: mm . marketing: that 's right . project manager: okay , now . so we i guess we use one . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: what ? t cell or chart you are trying to change is protected . well , that 's nice . she told me i could just ch change it here and then it would it does n't work . hmm . marketing: can you just fill it in in the yellow boxes ? or project manager: oh , okay yeah , okay , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: let 's see . okay , one , okay . user interface: yes . project manager: oh go away . um kinetic source so that 's in the energy source that 's all we need . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: uh electronics , simple chip on print ? is that 's what we 're using ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: one of those ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: come on . okay , one . uh regular chip on print . no . that 's all we need , the one industrial designer: no . yeah . project manager: case , uncurved flat , single curved , double curved . marketing: well . industrial designer: this is a user interface: single curve ? mm . marketing: i guess it 's double curved . project manager: double curved ? one of those ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: case materi s supplements . plastic we said , right ? user interface: plastic . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh wood , rubber ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: rubber , because we 're gon na have the soft buttons . project manager: uh but , yes but industrial designer: i think uh that is uh f for rubbers that is uh yeah case material . project manager: that 's just for the case material , user interface: is this for the case ? yes . project manager: so special colours though , we having that , marketing: oh okay , the mm-hmm , mm ' kay . project manager: right ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then we have to interface push buttons . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: scroll wheel , no . integrated scroll wheel , l_c_ display ? user interface: no . marketing: no , project manager: button . marketing: 'cause we did n't put the clock in it after all , right ? project manager: no . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh , button supplement special colour ? user interface: speci yes project manager: special form ? user interface: yes d we do have special form . marketing: yes . project manager: and special material , rubber , wood , yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . total seven point six whatever that means . industrial designer: uh , i think that 's the price . project manager: that 's the price . user interface: one two three four five six seven eight nine project manager: mm ? industrial designer: maybe it is it just n project manager: eight , eight point two . that 's user interface: nine points , project manager: hmm ? user interface: okay , yes . project manager: eight point two , right ? so , we looks like we are well within budget . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . i guess i should save this i suppose , huh ? marketing: yeah . project manager: oops . uh-huh huh huh . user interface: on the desktop . project manager: i just tried that . my documents , computer . industrial designer: ami . project manager: my compu ah oh here it is , yes . industrial designer: ami should for project manager: okay , fine . save . okay good , so that 's the good news . we gon na be popular . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: project manager: um . so that uh i think financing was pretty simple . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: now we would like to have a presentation by the marketing expert on production evaluation . marketing: okay , i 'll take my file down so you can bring it up . 'kay should be able to get it now . 'kay , why do n't you move just to the next slide right away . project manager: you wan na go to the next slide ? marketing: yeah right away . project manager: okay . marketing: okay , well uh obviously my method for uh s m the marketing of this thing is first to ask the big question , will it sell ? and i think we should show this prototype to people from various age and socio-economic groups and see about any fine tuning that maybe little things we have n't thought of . user interface: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: we ca n't accept every suggestion of course , but maybe we just need to get a few . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and show the the prototype to consumer research groups , we do n't s want somebody to suddenly come to us and tell us that this button is toxic and you know some child will swallow it and then we wo n't sell any . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm . marketing: so we have to get some input from those people . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and then after that we just have to go with our best intuition and you know we like it , we think it 's good , we 're gon na get behind it and sell it . um , next slide please . okay , now the things that i was thinking and th my wish list has really been realised in this prototype . i wanted the shape to be biomorphic , i did n't want anything with angles and all square , i wanted it to be comfy and roundy so we we 've got that . the size is small , the colour 's bright and warm which is what we wanted . we wanted the feel to be as soft as possible , we 'll have the soft buttons industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and the way this is shaped , even though it 's gon na be hard plastic , it feels good in your hand so that 's nice . and functionality i put last on my list because people are n't going to use it before they buy it . industrial designer: marketing: so paradoxically the other features , in other words , the look , the feel um and the shape , that 's what people are gon na get in the store . user interface: fee selling . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: they do n't have a television in the store , they ca n't play with it . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um so they 'll be our main selling points . so um th those have been fulfilled by your prototype and go ahead to the next slide please . okay , so um the shape um i think is a a one . that 's really , really excellent shape . the size is small um and th these points are in the importance for the , for the marketing , these are n't i in how i feel . i think that it 's i think that it 's plenty small enough to sell but i think we 're sort of right the scale is one to seven . i think we 're sort of right in the middle as far as c other competitors . user interface: okay . marketing: and our colour i think is great . the colours are bright and warm and we really do great job there . and given um the constraints that we had i think we got it as soft as possible . and then functionality um i think you did a really good job on functionality , obviously we could have ad added different functions but then we 'd disturb something else so i would say that we got to a five out of seven on on functionality . user interface: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so i think that basically we 've got a great product and we can get off and running with it . project manager: um i just realised one thing . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: in the financing there was no room for our voice recogniser . marketing: yes . user interface: yes . marketing: ah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i do n't know how we can evaluate that or how we can include that , too . marketing: well , um we had what , eight eight euros twenty as our cost ? project manager: eight , eight twenty , yes . industrial designer: eight twenty so marketing: and so we 've got we 've still got four euros to go to spend . industrial designer: we have um four euros , yeah project manager: i mean maximum we have another four point three euros i mean four thirty . marketing: mm-hmm . well um that 's project manager: but i mean we have no way of presenting that to management as you know as a f finished , as a finished product and saying okay with the voice recogniser that costs so much . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so um we just have to beware of that . i mean and know whether the four thirty will really cover that . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: well as we know in today 's technic technological world you can do just about anything at any price , the the the problem is quality . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so we 're just gon na have to settle for whatever quality that will buy us . industrial designer: yeah , user interface: yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and um it may not be the greatest quality but it may sell anyway . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , still . marketing: as we 've seen with so many of these kinds of products . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i 'm sorry to interrupt then but i just uh recog i just remembered that there was no that that was not um included uh that there was no room for any special features , okay ? industrial designer: included , yeah . hmm , user interface: yeah mm . industrial designer: hmm project manager: so to beware of that . you wan na go to this next slide , marketing expert ? marketing: uh , well i is n't this my last slide ? project manager: i dunno . marketing: maybe . project manager: yes it is . mm-hmm . marketing: go ahead . i think that was my last slide , yeah . um . mm okay . and i 'm supposed to present this scale on the whiteboard . um and we 're supposed to talk about those things as a team now , so if you put my last slide back up there . project manager: oh . marketing: i 'm sorry i 've um forgot to do that , um . project manager: why ? wh why you need that up ? marketing: hmm ? well because i ca n't remember what i put on there . okay . industrial designer: marketing: now i 'm supposed to see how long my leash is here . project manager: i think you can make it there . marketing: mm 'kay . you ready . so now we 're all supposed to say what we think . um okay so on shape i gave it a one . wait what would you ra uh one being good and seven being the worst . user interface: worse , okay . marketing: um what do you think the shape is ? user interface: one . marketing: one , okay , and be betsy ? project manager: yes i think uh shape is one . industrial designer: yeah , even my yeah , shape is one . marketing: okay , uh-huh one , okay . and how about on size ? on size project manager: you you gave it a four . marketing: i gave it a four , yeah , i feel it 's just average . project manager: um , i dunno . i think i would give it at least a two . marketing: okay . user interface: one . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , even i think it is one . it 's quite small . marketing: okay . okay user interface: marketing: you 're the designer , of course you wan na give it a one . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um and then how about how we doing on colour ? project manager: colour uh i marketing: colour , i gave it a one . project manager: one . marketing: i really like all those nice bright , warm colours . project manager: i i like the colours . one . user interface: one . yes . marketing: one . industrial designer: yeah , one . marketing: one , one , one , okay . and how about the feel ? taking into um consideration texture and comfort in the hand . project manager: uh , i think i would give it a two . marketing: okay , i gave it a three , two , user interface: i 'll give three . marketing: yeah ? three . industrial designer: uh maybe two , marketing: two , okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and the next is functionality where i i admit i was a little hard on our team here , but project manager: well it 's also you ca n't really try it out uh the other things you have have more is are more tangible so from that point of view marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: but um i 'll give it a three . marketing: okay . user interface: two . marketing: two , okay . industrial designer: uh three , mm-hmm . marketing: three ? okay . well , um . it looks like we 've got got ourselves a pretty good product . um the functionality 's the only place where maybe we have to think about m m maybe , heaven forbid , having another meeting . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but um otherwise i think we 're we 're ready to go to go with this product . anybody else have any other comments or any other things that we feel we should evaluate ? project manager: uh . here is what we looking at uh satisfaction on for example room for creativity . um . is there more room for creativity or are we absolutely happy ? user interface: we can always improve , yes . industrial designer: maybe we can yeah , include some more buttons and uh um user interface: yes , features . industrial designer: yeah features . we can make the buttons few buttons smaller . uh i think they are quite big , so i think i i mean we can just have small buttons and more buttons in that case . if we want to have more features than that . marketing: mm-hmm . well then again if we 're gon na um do the speech recognition thing we 're gon there gon na be some buttons that are gon na have to be added for that for the recording of the the speech . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , definitely . user interface: yes . voices . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so that that 's where we 're gon na have to do maybe we can eliminate one of the mute buttons , instead of having two mute buttons . industrial designer: yeah , definitely , yeah , two mu mute buttons . user interface: yes . yes . marketing: and um then maybe we can do something with the um the volume control . maybe we can put that all on one button . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: um and a couple of other th maybe comp uh consolidate some of the usage an and see what we can do with that . project manager: y um al always bearing in mind that right now we are of course well within the budget industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and maybe project manager: and that we still you know we probably ca n't , with this particular item , we probably ca n't just uh add a whole lot of more things . marketing: mm-hmm . no . project manager: uh um we need uh you know we need to leave space money-wise for the voice recogniser . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so th the question really is how do we feel with the project process ? uh , um are we happy with the creativity that has passed here or we 're not happy with the new product we created or that was created ? uh i think personally i think uh i 'm pretty happy . marketing: i 'm pretty happy with it too , yeah um , project manager: um an industrial designer: even i 'm happy . marketing: it 's something i think i can market . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and then the next question is are we happy with the leadership of this project ? uh marketing: i think you 've done a good job , miss leader . user interface: yes , yes you 've done a good job . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , definitely . project manager: and i think team work i think was very very good , i think we really industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah i d i do too i think we worked well together as a team , yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i think we are we happy with the means we used ? we used whiteboard , we did n't use digital p well digital pens i guess are these things . marketing: yeah maybe we could 've used the whiteboard a little bit more , yeah , user interface: whiteboard more , yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah , probably . marketing: we did n't use that enough . project manager: yes , we could . uh , it 's maybe not in the best position in the room um you know like sometimes it 's positioned so that it 's much better visible for everybody and i think from that point of view we sort of ignored it a little bit . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: and we used the slide because it was better positioned . project manager: yes , i think so , i think absolutely , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: no . marketing: mm i think that 's true mm-hmm . project manager: and fortunately we all had slides presentation which made it a little easier . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um did we new did we find new ideas ? user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think we did . industrial designer: yeah , many . marketing: i think we were we were very good , yeah , mm . project manager: i think we we did , uh in more than one respect and uh so i think we did very well here . marketing: mm-hmm . okay . project manager: are the costs within budget ? yes , yes . uh is the project evaluated ? yes . marketing: yes , yes . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um then celebration . marketing: celebration . user interface: cel celebration yes , yes . industrial designer: ah . marketing: today we have apple juice and after we sell m million of 'em we have champagne . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: so i i thank you all very much . um , i think this was very good and um industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think we did come up with a new product that 's uh feasible . feasible from the production point of view and feasible from a marketing point of view . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: so , thank you . marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: thank you . industrial designer: thank you very much . marketing: okay . watch i i have my cord behind you here . user interface: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: i always get it on here , but getting it off is industrial designer: do we do we have some time left ? uh you have user interface: they say it 's forty minutes . project manager: ah yes we have time later marketing: but we we were told we could end the final meeting at any time , whenever we felt we were finished . project manager: but we do n't user interface: okay . industrial designer: oh , alright . marketing: it 'll take me the rest of the time to get my microphone out from my necklace . oh , there we go .

marketing suggested that they could do something funny for the shell as the snail was known to be slow and they could have a comic effect about how this was a rapid snail . user interface and industrial designer agreed .

what were the special features for the remote discussed during feedback for the prototype ? </s> project manager: well hi everyone again . user interface: hello . industrial designer: hello . marketing: hello project manager: um like before we uh i have to redo the meetings from n th the minutes from the last meeting marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and so here we go . uh it was discussed in the last meeting uh which was opened by the presentation from the interface um designer that uh looks would be very important on this new remote user interface: designer . marketing: project manager: and um it is to send messages of course to the tv . it should have nine channel buttons , a next button , volume buttons , subtitle buttons , switch to control features , colour contrast , sharpness etcetera . it should have a memory switch , a mute button in case the telephone rings or something . uh speech recognition is one of her very f favourite personal uh features she would like see d d to be integrated in this um in this new remote . um . should be child friendly design with few buttons , colourful maybe with s star shaped or other shaped buttons . um she uh presented also an oversized remote which she guarantees nobody will ever be able to lose . user interface: project manager: um marketing: and she was challenged on that point project manager: that 's right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: project manager: but uh her very f personal favourite really she , she would very much like to see a speech recogniser integrated in this remote . the industrial designer um presented her uh thoughts on the issue . she would like a special case made out of plastic that is very strong , not using any harmful materials , should be recyclable and should be colourful . should have an integrated circuit board that 's highly sophisticated and temperature resistant . she would like to see a timer and or alarm facility integrated . uh technically this thing would also have a resistor and a capacitor , diode transistor , resonator , and if possible a rechargeable battery . uh and of course a circuit board . and how it would works , you press the button , the chip is morse morse code related relays the uh to the generat to the generator amplification and uh the circuit board is very inexpensive to build and so she thinks this is a great feature uh to to to consider . marketing: okay . project manager: she would like uh this whole thing should be push buttons with a simple chip uh scrolling method is more expensive and not that practical anymore . should be battery operated and of course she would have the special cases . the marketing expert uh who has to finally come up with to to to market this product has been watching the competition , has done some research on the internet and also has used h her personal observations to come up with the fact that such a remote sh should be small , easy to use and it should be eye catching . from her point of view of course one of the most important facts is that we should get to market before our competition does . to do that uh maybe one or two features should be developed on which we could dwell on or in other words on which our campaign could be built on . too many new features or too many points would only confuse matter . so we prefer to have one or two features that can be really uh driven home . um it should have a fruit and vegetable design and should have a soft feel . she feels that 's really what people want today . and the decision that we took last time was that uh the special feature we would like to see is a speech recogniser , the energy should be battery uh should be on a chip , should be trendy design , compact and strong , and should have buttons . and that concludes the presentation from the last minutes from the last meeting . now uh we are ready for the presentation of the prototype . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: just the look like , the button part i 'll explain . industrial designer: yeah . uh so this is our what uh we have made . this is a model of the remote control which we are going to build . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh this is us in a snail shape so uh it it is attractive marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and it 's it 's blue in colour uh bright and uh it has yellow buttons and all the different colour buttons marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so it is a uh uh a looks-wise it is beautiful . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh and also compact in shape . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh um and also i it it will be easily fit into into the hands and you can access all the buttons easily . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . good . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: industrial designer: oops , sorry . marketing: you used to have all the buttons user interface: industrial designer: um yeah and um uh the material which we are going to use for the case is uh plastic and uh w which which is s strong um uh and also uh for the um the material is plastic and uh for the buttons it is uh s soft rubber um and als marketing: oh that 's good , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: no , that 's nice and friendly . industrial designer: yeah because uh uh you 'll be touching the buttons more so it is soft when you touch it . marketing: mm-hmm . mm . project manager: mm-hmm , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then um uh for the for the led , for the light emitting diode it is a fluorescent green marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and it 's a a it is a bulb like an ordinary infrared . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and and the button button 's part uh will be explained by f francina . user interface: okay . marketing: okay . user interface: now the um we decided upon including certain features on our remote . now these features includes the s um signal emitting uh signal it 's the led or l_e_d_ the infrared . project manager: mm-hmm , marketing: yeah , okay , mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: now uh we have included the switch on and off button . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: now we have included another feature that is the mute button marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: on the side of the model . then we have included one to nine buttons marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: for controlling the programmes the different channels . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we have also included two buttons for increasing or decreasing the volume . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and we have also included two buttons for scrolling up and scrolling down the programme channels . now our our model also contains a button which is called as the menu button . marketing: mm . project manager: what kind of button ? user interface: menu button . project manager: menu ? uh menu th menu , uh one one . user interface: yes , menu marketing: menu button . user interface: at the centre marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we have included a button which is fluorescent green colour and this is the menu button which will control the colour , sharpness , brightness marketing: mm-hmm . of the screen . mm , mm-hmm . user interface: of this uh picture . we have also included a button which is called as the swapping button . now this is uh a special , special feature which we have included . now this button is an elongated shaped button and this is slightly flexible so if it is turned towards the right it will take to the previous channel , if it is turned towards the right it will take to the next channel . it will take the user to the previous and the next channel so this is a swapping button . marketing: the next channel in the numeric pattern , or user interface: no , swapping is if if example you 're you 're watching the second channel and then you go to the tenth channel and if you want to go back to the second channel you can swap , this button . marketing: yeah , mm-hmm . mm . user interface: yes . marketing: okay , okay . user interface: and at the end , it this remote has inbuilt voice recogniser which c which will recognise the user 's voice and then it 'll act accordingly . project manager: okay . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: so this is our proposed model . marketing: okay . user interface: now the marketing expert has to marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: tell , yeah . user interface: give her suggestion whether it 'll be sellable or it 'll be cost effective . industrial designer: marketing: okay , well um what what i really like a lot about it is that you can reach the whole thing with one thumb , user interface: yes , yes . marketing: that you can really hold it in one h you do n't need two hands industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and it 's easily reachable even for somebody with a small hand , yeah ? project manager: yes the buttons are all raised , right ? marketing: the buttons are all raised project manager: are raised , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: and if you hold it in the centre of your hand you can even reach it over here so you do n't have to turn it around , turn it upside down , move it up , up and down , project manager: right . or have two hands to operate it , yeah . marketing: i really like that . user interface: mm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: you really did a good job on that , my little designers . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um and um i like the idea that the on-off button is in a really prominent place . that 's that 's a really good good thing . project manager: yes , and it sort of sticks up so that you really marketing: yeah , that 's great . project manager: you do n't have to g first go like oh yeah here it 's on and yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: abs okay . marketing: the colour 's very attractive . um the um these buttons uh around here are the mute user interface: no , these the front buttons which are here , are the mute buttons . marketing: and these mm-hmm on both sides they 're mute ? user interface: yes , yes . marketing: so you can push either one ? user interface: yes . marketing: okay . project manager: so if you 're left-handed or right-handed it does n't matter . marketing: and this brings the menu up on the screen ? user interface: pardon me ? this is the menu yes , yes . marketing: this brings the menu up on the screen and the orange ones are user interface: a the the these these two are th to increase or decrease the volumes , marketing: okay . user interface: and these two are to uh scroll the programme channels . marketing: f f okay . user interface: scroll up or scroll down the channels . marketing: right , very good . uh it looks mm looks like something i can sell . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: okay and now i 'm supposed to project manager: well , i have one question marketing: yeah . project manager: uh will there be anything written on the buttons , like that people know , or they have to learn that from a piece of paper which button does what ? user interface: yes , it will have uh these buttons will have the numbers and all the rest of the buttons will have symbols . industrial designer: ah . yeah , definitely . project manager: will have symbols so that that that the user really knows you know and does n't have to first learn it user interface: yes , which can be easily recognised . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: good point because we need the symbols 'cause we 're going into an international market we ca n't have anything that 's language dependent . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah of course , and also user interface: yes . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: yeah . but anyway it would ha i i i it has to have some kind of of symbols , text or something so that people kn industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah we can text . marketing: symbols on it . mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . industrial designer: text that we can have on the case itself , project manager: that 's right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: we can it will be printed on the case and symbols as well as the buttons . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , yeah just wanted make sure of that mm-hmm . user interface: and and one more feature is we we have a holder for this remote which is an oyster shape . marketing: mm , 'kay , mm . mm-hmm . user interface: a shell shape . marketing: for the snail , yeah , mm-hmm , project manager: right , mm-hmm . user interface: yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah . so it is marketing: we have the snail shell . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yes , snail shell . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: he goes right back into his shell . industrial designer: yeah shell . project manager: right . user interface: yes . marketing: well you know i think we could do something really funny with this too because the snail is known to be slow industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and we could have some sort of little comic effect on our marketing about how this is a rapid snail or something like that user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm . user interface: y yes industrial designer: yeah , of course , yeah . marketing: you know that would , that would really work . project manager: now what , what are our special features for the marketing ? marketing: so project manager: that 's really the voice recognition that 's really unusual marketing: i think voice recognition is our big selling point industrial designer: mm . mm-hmm . marketing: 'cause nobody else seems to have that in in this price range . industrial designer: mm . project manager: and then , and then the other thing would basically be sh shape or practicality of use . marketing: yep project manager: you know . marketing: uh well i think that everybody 's gon na say their remote control is practical . i think we have to , we have to dwell on on on the appearance . project manager: colours . mm-hmm . marketing: we 're really gon na have the be the project manager: cutest . marketing: cutest remote control on the block . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm . marketing: so i think we have to play with the image , play with the snail image um play with the visual and then the voice recognition . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: i think those are the two things to push . the look and the voice recognition . they 're gon na be our two selling points . project manager: okay , now uh having said that marketing: i 'm supposed to make a little presentation , are n't i ? project manager: no , now this was our evaluation criteria which we uh just have done . marketing: okay . project manager: now we 're gon na talk about financing . marketing: ah , but in my instructions i think it said i was supposed to go to the board and do something . project manager: well , there is a production evaluation . marketing: no ? project manager: is that you ? marketing: yeah , that 's me . project manager: but that 's after the financing . marketing: oh , okay . project manager: see ? fi see ? marketing: sorry , sorry . mm-mm . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: um . okay , we had looks and voice recognition . okay now on the financing we bring up the mm there it is . okay uh energy source we say that 's battery , right ? industrial designer: mm . marketing: that 's right . project manager: okay , now . so we i guess we use one . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: what ? t cell or chart you are trying to change is protected . well , that 's nice . she told me i could just ch change it here and then it would it does n't work . hmm . marketing: can you just fill it in in the yellow boxes ? or project manager: oh , okay yeah , okay , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: let 's see . okay , one , okay . user interface: yes . project manager: oh go away . um kinetic source so that 's in the energy source that 's all we need . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: uh electronics , simple chip on print ? is that 's what we 're using ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: one of those ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: come on . okay , one . uh regular chip on print . no . that 's all we need , the one industrial designer: no . yeah . project manager: case , uncurved flat , single curved , double curved . marketing: well . industrial designer: this is a user interface: single curve ? mm . marketing: i guess it 's double curved . project manager: double curved ? one of those ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: case materi s supplements . plastic we said , right ? user interface: plastic . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh wood , rubber ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: rubber , because we 're gon na have the soft buttons . project manager: uh but , yes but industrial designer: i think uh that is uh f for rubbers that is uh yeah case material . project manager: that 's just for the case material , user interface: is this for the case ? yes . project manager: so special colours though , we having that , marketing: oh okay , the mm-hmm , mm ' kay . project manager: right ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then we have to interface push buttons . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: scroll wheel , no . integrated scroll wheel , l_c_ display ? user interface: no . marketing: no , project manager: button . marketing: 'cause we did n't put the clock in it after all , right ? project manager: no . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh , button supplement special colour ? user interface: speci yes project manager: special form ? user interface: yes d we do have special form . marketing: yes . project manager: and special material , rubber , wood , yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . total seven point six whatever that means . industrial designer: uh , i think that 's the price . project manager: that 's the price . user interface: one two three four five six seven eight nine project manager: mm ? industrial designer: maybe it is it just n project manager: eight , eight point two . that 's user interface: nine points , project manager: hmm ? user interface: okay , yes . project manager: eight point two , right ? so , we looks like we are well within budget . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . i guess i should save this i suppose , huh ? marketing: yeah . project manager: oops . uh-huh huh huh . user interface: on the desktop . project manager: i just tried that . my documents , computer . industrial designer: ami . project manager: my compu ah oh here it is , yes . industrial designer: ami should for project manager: okay , fine . save . okay good , so that 's the good news . we gon na be popular . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: project manager: um . so that uh i think financing was pretty simple . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: now we would like to have a presentation by the marketing expert on production evaluation . marketing: okay , i 'll take my file down so you can bring it up . 'kay should be able to get it now . 'kay , why do n't you move just to the next slide right away . project manager: you wan na go to the next slide ? marketing: yeah right away . project manager: okay . marketing: okay , well uh obviously my method for uh s m the marketing of this thing is first to ask the big question , will it sell ? and i think we should show this prototype to people from various age and socio-economic groups and see about any fine tuning that maybe little things we have n't thought of . user interface: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: we ca n't accept every suggestion of course , but maybe we just need to get a few . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and show the the prototype to consumer research groups , we do n't s want somebody to suddenly come to us and tell us that this button is toxic and you know some child will swallow it and then we wo n't sell any . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm . marketing: so we have to get some input from those people . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and then after that we just have to go with our best intuition and you know we like it , we think it 's good , we 're gon na get behind it and sell it . um , next slide please . okay , now the things that i was thinking and th my wish list has really been realised in this prototype . i wanted the shape to be biomorphic , i did n't want anything with angles and all square , i wanted it to be comfy and roundy so we we 've got that . the size is small , the colour 's bright and warm which is what we wanted . we wanted the feel to be as soft as possible , we 'll have the soft buttons industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and the way this is shaped , even though it 's gon na be hard plastic , it feels good in your hand so that 's nice . and functionality i put last on my list because people are n't going to use it before they buy it . industrial designer: marketing: so paradoxically the other features , in other words , the look , the feel um and the shape , that 's what people are gon na get in the store . user interface: fee selling . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: they do n't have a television in the store , they ca n't play with it . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um so they 'll be our main selling points . so um th those have been fulfilled by your prototype and go ahead to the next slide please . okay , so um the shape um i think is a a one . that 's really , really excellent shape . the size is small um and th these points are in the importance for the , for the marketing , these are n't i in how i feel . i think that it 's i think that it 's plenty small enough to sell but i think we 're sort of right the scale is one to seven . i think we 're sort of right in the middle as far as c other competitors . user interface: okay . marketing: and our colour i think is great . the colours are bright and warm and we really do great job there . and given um the constraints that we had i think we got it as soft as possible . and then functionality um i think you did a really good job on functionality , obviously we could have ad added different functions but then we 'd disturb something else so i would say that we got to a five out of seven on on functionality . user interface: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so i think that basically we 've got a great product and we can get off and running with it . project manager: um i just realised one thing . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: in the financing there was no room for our voice recogniser . marketing: yes . user interface: yes . marketing: ah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i do n't know how we can evaluate that or how we can include that , too . marketing: well , um we had what , eight eight euros twenty as our cost ? project manager: eight , eight twenty , yes . industrial designer: eight twenty so marketing: and so we 've got we 've still got four euros to go to spend . industrial designer: we have um four euros , yeah project manager: i mean maximum we have another four point three euros i mean four thirty . marketing: mm-hmm . well um that 's project manager: but i mean we have no way of presenting that to management as you know as a f finished , as a finished product and saying okay with the voice recogniser that costs so much . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so um we just have to beware of that . i mean and know whether the four thirty will really cover that . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: well as we know in today 's technic technological world you can do just about anything at any price , the the the problem is quality . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so we 're just gon na have to settle for whatever quality that will buy us . industrial designer: yeah , user interface: yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and um it may not be the greatest quality but it may sell anyway . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , still . marketing: as we 've seen with so many of these kinds of products . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i 'm sorry to interrupt then but i just uh recog i just remembered that there was no that that was not um included uh that there was no room for any special features , okay ? industrial designer: included , yeah . hmm , user interface: yeah mm . industrial designer: hmm project manager: so to beware of that . you wan na go to this next slide , marketing expert ? marketing: uh , well i is n't this my last slide ? project manager: i dunno . marketing: maybe . project manager: yes it is . mm-hmm . marketing: go ahead . i think that was my last slide , yeah . um . mm okay . and i 'm supposed to present this scale on the whiteboard . um and we 're supposed to talk about those things as a team now , so if you put my last slide back up there . project manager: oh . marketing: i 'm sorry i 've um forgot to do that , um . project manager: why ? wh why you need that up ? marketing: hmm ? well because i ca n't remember what i put on there . okay . industrial designer: marketing: now i 'm supposed to see how long my leash is here . project manager: i think you can make it there . marketing: mm 'kay . you ready . so now we 're all supposed to say what we think . um okay so on shape i gave it a one . wait what would you ra uh one being good and seven being the worst . user interface: worse , okay . marketing: um what do you think the shape is ? user interface: one . marketing: one , okay , and be betsy ? project manager: yes i think uh shape is one . industrial designer: yeah , even my yeah , shape is one . marketing: okay , uh-huh one , okay . and how about on size ? on size project manager: you you gave it a four . marketing: i gave it a four , yeah , i feel it 's just average . project manager: um , i dunno . i think i would give it at least a two . marketing: okay . user interface: one . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , even i think it is one . it 's quite small . marketing: okay . okay user interface: marketing: you 're the designer , of course you wan na give it a one . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um and then how about how we doing on colour ? project manager: colour uh i marketing: colour , i gave it a one . project manager: one . marketing: i really like all those nice bright , warm colours . project manager: i i like the colours . one . user interface: one . yes . marketing: one . industrial designer: yeah , one . marketing: one , one , one , okay . and how about the feel ? taking into um consideration texture and comfort in the hand . project manager: uh , i think i would give it a two . marketing: okay , i gave it a three , two , user interface: i 'll give three . marketing: yeah ? three . industrial designer: uh maybe two , marketing: two , okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and the next is functionality where i i admit i was a little hard on our team here , but project manager: well it 's also you ca n't really try it out uh the other things you have have more is are more tangible so from that point of view marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: but um i 'll give it a three . marketing: okay . user interface: two . marketing: two , okay . industrial designer: uh three , mm-hmm . marketing: three ? okay . well , um . it looks like we 've got got ourselves a pretty good product . um the functionality 's the only place where maybe we have to think about m m maybe , heaven forbid , having another meeting . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but um otherwise i think we 're we 're ready to go to go with this product . anybody else have any other comments or any other things that we feel we should evaluate ? project manager: uh . here is what we looking at uh satisfaction on for example room for creativity . um . is there more room for creativity or are we absolutely happy ? user interface: we can always improve , yes . industrial designer: maybe we can yeah , include some more buttons and uh um user interface: yes , features . industrial designer: yeah features . we can make the buttons few buttons smaller . uh i think they are quite big , so i think i i mean we can just have small buttons and more buttons in that case . if we want to have more features than that . marketing: mm-hmm . well then again if we 're gon na um do the speech recognition thing we 're gon there gon na be some buttons that are gon na have to be added for that for the recording of the the speech . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , definitely . user interface: yes . voices . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so that that 's where we 're gon na have to do maybe we can eliminate one of the mute buttons , instead of having two mute buttons . industrial designer: yeah , definitely , yeah , two mu mute buttons . user interface: yes . yes . marketing: and um then maybe we can do something with the um the volume control . maybe we can put that all on one button . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: um and a couple of other th maybe comp uh consolidate some of the usage an and see what we can do with that . project manager: y um al always bearing in mind that right now we are of course well within the budget industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and maybe project manager: and that we still you know we probably ca n't , with this particular item , we probably ca n't just uh add a whole lot of more things . marketing: mm-hmm . no . project manager: uh um we need uh you know we need to leave space money-wise for the voice recogniser . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so th the question really is how do we feel with the project process ? uh , um are we happy with the creativity that has passed here or we 're not happy with the new product we created or that was created ? uh i think personally i think uh i 'm pretty happy . marketing: i 'm pretty happy with it too , yeah um , project manager: um an industrial designer: even i 'm happy . marketing: it 's something i think i can market . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and then the next question is are we happy with the leadership of this project ? uh marketing: i think you 've done a good job , miss leader . user interface: yes , yes you 've done a good job . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , definitely . project manager: and i think team work i think was very very good , i think we really industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah i d i do too i think we worked well together as a team , yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i think we are we happy with the means we used ? we used whiteboard , we did n't use digital p well digital pens i guess are these things . marketing: yeah maybe we could 've used the whiteboard a little bit more , yeah , user interface: whiteboard more , yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah , probably . marketing: we did n't use that enough . project manager: yes , we could . uh , it 's maybe not in the best position in the room um you know like sometimes it 's positioned so that it 's much better visible for everybody and i think from that point of view we sort of ignored it a little bit . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: and we used the slide because it was better positioned . project manager: yes , i think so , i think absolutely , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: no . marketing: mm i think that 's true mm-hmm . project manager: and fortunately we all had slides presentation which made it a little easier . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um did we new did we find new ideas ? user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think we did . industrial designer: yeah , many . marketing: i think we were we were very good , yeah , mm . project manager: i think we we did , uh in more than one respect and uh so i think we did very well here . marketing: mm-hmm . okay . project manager: are the costs within budget ? yes , yes . uh is the project evaluated ? yes . marketing: yes , yes . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um then celebration . marketing: celebration . user interface: cel celebration yes , yes . industrial designer: ah . marketing: today we have apple juice and after we sell m million of 'em we have champagne . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: so i i thank you all very much . um , i think this was very good and um industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think we did come up with a new product that 's uh feasible . feasible from the production point of view and feasible from a marketing point of view . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: so , thank you . marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: thank you . industrial designer: thank you very much . marketing: okay . watch i i have my cord behind you here . user interface: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: i always get it on here , but getting it off is industrial designer: do we do we have some time left ? uh you have user interface: they say it 's forty minutes . project manager: ah yes we have time later marketing: but we we were told we could end the final meeting at any time , whenever we felt we were finished . project manager: but we do n't user interface: okay . industrial designer: oh , alright . marketing: it 'll take me the rest of the time to get my microphone out from my necklace . oh , there we go .

voice recognition would be a major selling point as it was unusual and there were no remotes that had this function in the same price range . another selling point would be its appearance as it would be the cutest remote control . the snail image could be used as a visual attraction . practicality would not be one of its special features because all competition would feature this .

summarize the financing of the remote . </s> project manager: well hi everyone again . user interface: hello . industrial designer: hello . marketing: hello project manager: um like before we uh i have to redo the meetings from n th the minutes from the last meeting marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and so here we go . uh it was discussed in the last meeting uh which was opened by the presentation from the interface um designer that uh looks would be very important on this new remote user interface: designer . marketing: project manager: and um it is to send messages of course to the tv . it should have nine channel buttons , a next button , volume buttons , subtitle buttons , switch to control features , colour contrast , sharpness etcetera . it should have a memory switch , a mute button in case the telephone rings or something . uh speech recognition is one of her very f favourite personal uh features she would like see d d to be integrated in this um in this new remote . um . should be child friendly design with few buttons , colourful maybe with s star shaped or other shaped buttons . um she uh presented also an oversized remote which she guarantees nobody will ever be able to lose . user interface: project manager: um marketing: and she was challenged on that point project manager: that 's right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: project manager: but uh her very f personal favourite really she , she would very much like to see a speech recogniser integrated in this remote . the industrial designer um presented her uh thoughts on the issue . she would like a special case made out of plastic that is very strong , not using any harmful materials , should be recyclable and should be colourful . should have an integrated circuit board that 's highly sophisticated and temperature resistant . she would like to see a timer and or alarm facility integrated . uh technically this thing would also have a resistor and a capacitor , diode transistor , resonator , and if possible a rechargeable battery . uh and of course a circuit board . and how it would works , you press the button , the chip is morse morse code related relays the uh to the generat to the generator amplification and uh the circuit board is very inexpensive to build and so she thinks this is a great feature uh to to to consider . marketing: okay . project manager: she would like uh this whole thing should be push buttons with a simple chip uh scrolling method is more expensive and not that practical anymore . should be battery operated and of course she would have the special cases . the marketing expert uh who has to finally come up with to to to market this product has been watching the competition , has done some research on the internet and also has used h her personal observations to come up with the fact that such a remote sh should be small , easy to use and it should be eye catching . from her point of view of course one of the most important facts is that we should get to market before our competition does . to do that uh maybe one or two features should be developed on which we could dwell on or in other words on which our campaign could be built on . too many new features or too many points would only confuse matter . so we prefer to have one or two features that can be really uh driven home . um it should have a fruit and vegetable design and should have a soft feel . she feels that 's really what people want today . and the decision that we took last time was that uh the special feature we would like to see is a speech recogniser , the energy should be battery uh should be on a chip , should be trendy design , compact and strong , and should have buttons . and that concludes the presentation from the last minutes from the last meeting . now uh we are ready for the presentation of the prototype . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: just the look like , the button part i 'll explain . industrial designer: yeah . uh so this is our what uh we have made . this is a model of the remote control which we are going to build . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh this is us in a snail shape so uh it it is attractive marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and it 's it 's blue in colour uh bright and uh it has yellow buttons and all the different colour buttons marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so it is a uh uh a looks-wise it is beautiful . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh and also compact in shape . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh um and also i it it will be easily fit into into the hands and you can access all the buttons easily . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . good . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: industrial designer: oops , sorry . marketing: you used to have all the buttons user interface: industrial designer: um yeah and um uh the material which we are going to use for the case is uh plastic and uh w which which is s strong um uh and also uh for the um the material is plastic and uh for the buttons it is uh s soft rubber um and als marketing: oh that 's good , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: no , that 's nice and friendly . industrial designer: yeah because uh uh you 'll be touching the buttons more so it is soft when you touch it . marketing: mm-hmm . mm . project manager: mm-hmm , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then um uh for the for the led , for the light emitting diode it is a fluorescent green marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and it 's a a it is a bulb like an ordinary infrared . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and and the button button 's part uh will be explained by f francina . user interface: okay . marketing: okay . user interface: now the um we decided upon including certain features on our remote . now these features includes the s um signal emitting uh signal it 's the led or l_e_d_ the infrared . project manager: mm-hmm , marketing: yeah , okay , mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: now uh we have included the switch on and off button . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: now we have included another feature that is the mute button marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: on the side of the model . then we have included one to nine buttons marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: for controlling the programmes the different channels . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we have also included two buttons for increasing or decreasing the volume . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and we have also included two buttons for scrolling up and scrolling down the programme channels . now our our model also contains a button which is called as the menu button . marketing: mm . project manager: what kind of button ? user interface: menu button . project manager: menu ? uh menu th menu , uh one one . user interface: yes , menu marketing: menu button . user interface: at the centre marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we have included a button which is fluorescent green colour and this is the menu button which will control the colour , sharpness , brightness marketing: mm-hmm . of the screen . mm , mm-hmm . user interface: of this uh picture . we have also included a button which is called as the swapping button . now this is uh a special , special feature which we have included . now this button is an elongated shaped button and this is slightly flexible so if it is turned towards the right it will take to the previous channel , if it is turned towards the right it will take to the next channel . it will take the user to the previous and the next channel so this is a swapping button . marketing: the next channel in the numeric pattern , or user interface: no , swapping is if if example you 're you 're watching the second channel and then you go to the tenth channel and if you want to go back to the second channel you can swap , this button . marketing: yeah , mm-hmm . mm . user interface: yes . marketing: okay , okay . user interface: and at the end , it this remote has inbuilt voice recogniser which c which will recognise the user 's voice and then it 'll act accordingly . project manager: okay . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: so this is our proposed model . marketing: okay . user interface: now the marketing expert has to marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: tell , yeah . user interface: give her suggestion whether it 'll be sellable or it 'll be cost effective . industrial designer: marketing: okay , well um what what i really like a lot about it is that you can reach the whole thing with one thumb , user interface: yes , yes . marketing: that you can really hold it in one h you do n't need two hands industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and it 's easily reachable even for somebody with a small hand , yeah ? project manager: yes the buttons are all raised , right ? marketing: the buttons are all raised project manager: are raised , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: and if you hold it in the centre of your hand you can even reach it over here so you do n't have to turn it around , turn it upside down , move it up , up and down , project manager: right . or have two hands to operate it , yeah . marketing: i really like that . user interface: mm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: you really did a good job on that , my little designers . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um and um i like the idea that the on-off button is in a really prominent place . that 's that 's a really good good thing . project manager: yes , and it sort of sticks up so that you really marketing: yeah , that 's great . project manager: you do n't have to g first go like oh yeah here it 's on and yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: abs okay . marketing: the colour 's very attractive . um the um these buttons uh around here are the mute user interface: no , these the front buttons which are here , are the mute buttons . marketing: and these mm-hmm on both sides they 're mute ? user interface: yes , yes . marketing: so you can push either one ? user interface: yes . marketing: okay . project manager: so if you 're left-handed or right-handed it does n't matter . marketing: and this brings the menu up on the screen ? user interface: pardon me ? this is the menu yes , yes . marketing: this brings the menu up on the screen and the orange ones are user interface: a the the these these two are th to increase or decrease the volumes , marketing: okay . user interface: and these two are to uh scroll the programme channels . marketing: f f okay . user interface: scroll up or scroll down the channels . marketing: right , very good . uh it looks mm looks like something i can sell . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: okay and now i 'm supposed to project manager: well , i have one question marketing: yeah . project manager: uh will there be anything written on the buttons , like that people know , or they have to learn that from a piece of paper which button does what ? user interface: yes , it will have uh these buttons will have the numbers and all the rest of the buttons will have symbols . industrial designer: ah . yeah , definitely . project manager: will have symbols so that that that the user really knows you know and does n't have to first learn it user interface: yes , which can be easily recognised . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: good point because we need the symbols 'cause we 're going into an international market we ca n't have anything that 's language dependent . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah of course , and also user interface: yes . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: yeah . but anyway it would ha i i i it has to have some kind of of symbols , text or something so that people kn industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah we can text . marketing: symbols on it . mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . industrial designer: text that we can have on the case itself , project manager: that 's right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: we can it will be printed on the case and symbols as well as the buttons . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , yeah just wanted make sure of that mm-hmm . user interface: and and one more feature is we we have a holder for this remote which is an oyster shape . marketing: mm , 'kay , mm . mm-hmm . user interface: a shell shape . marketing: for the snail , yeah , mm-hmm , project manager: right , mm-hmm . user interface: yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah . so it is marketing: we have the snail shell . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yes , snail shell . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: he goes right back into his shell . industrial designer: yeah shell . project manager: right . user interface: yes . marketing: well you know i think we could do something really funny with this too because the snail is known to be slow industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and we could have some sort of little comic effect on our marketing about how this is a rapid snail or something like that user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm . user interface: y yes industrial designer: yeah , of course , yeah . marketing: you know that would , that would really work . project manager: now what , what are our special features for the marketing ? marketing: so project manager: that 's really the voice recognition that 's really unusual marketing: i think voice recognition is our big selling point industrial designer: mm . mm-hmm . marketing: 'cause nobody else seems to have that in in this price range . industrial designer: mm . project manager: and then , and then the other thing would basically be sh shape or practicality of use . marketing: yep project manager: you know . marketing: uh well i think that everybody 's gon na say their remote control is practical . i think we have to , we have to dwell on on on the appearance . project manager: colours . mm-hmm . marketing: we 're really gon na have the be the project manager: cutest . marketing: cutest remote control on the block . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm . marketing: so i think we have to play with the image , play with the snail image um play with the visual and then the voice recognition . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: i think those are the two things to push . the look and the voice recognition . they 're gon na be our two selling points . project manager: okay , now uh having said that marketing: i 'm supposed to make a little presentation , are n't i ? project manager: no , now this was our evaluation criteria which we uh just have done . marketing: okay . project manager: now we 're gon na talk about financing . marketing: ah , but in my instructions i think it said i was supposed to go to the board and do something . project manager: well , there is a production evaluation . marketing: no ? project manager: is that you ? marketing: yeah , that 's me . project manager: but that 's after the financing . marketing: oh , okay . project manager: see ? fi see ? marketing: sorry , sorry . mm-mm . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: um . okay , we had looks and voice recognition . okay now on the financing we bring up the mm there it is . okay uh energy source we say that 's battery , right ? industrial designer: mm . marketing: that 's right . project manager: okay , now . so we i guess we use one . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: what ? t cell or chart you are trying to change is protected . well , that 's nice . she told me i could just ch change it here and then it would it does n't work . hmm . marketing: can you just fill it in in the yellow boxes ? or project manager: oh , okay yeah , okay , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: let 's see . okay , one , okay . user interface: yes . project manager: oh go away . um kinetic source so that 's in the energy source that 's all we need . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: uh electronics , simple chip on print ? is that 's what we 're using ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: one of those ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: come on . okay , one . uh regular chip on print . no . that 's all we need , the one industrial designer: no . yeah . project manager: case , uncurved flat , single curved , double curved . marketing: well . industrial designer: this is a user interface: single curve ? mm . marketing: i guess it 's double curved . project manager: double curved ? one of those ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: case materi s supplements . plastic we said , right ? user interface: plastic . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh wood , rubber ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: rubber , because we 're gon na have the soft buttons . project manager: uh but , yes but industrial designer: i think uh that is uh f for rubbers that is uh yeah case material . project manager: that 's just for the case material , user interface: is this for the case ? yes . project manager: so special colours though , we having that , marketing: oh okay , the mm-hmm , mm ' kay . project manager: right ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then we have to interface push buttons . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: scroll wheel , no . integrated scroll wheel , l_c_ display ? user interface: no . marketing: no , project manager: button . marketing: 'cause we did n't put the clock in it after all , right ? project manager: no . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh , button supplement special colour ? user interface: speci yes project manager: special form ? user interface: yes d we do have special form . marketing: yes . project manager: and special material , rubber , wood , yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . total seven point six whatever that means . industrial designer: uh , i think that 's the price . project manager: that 's the price . user interface: one two three four five six seven eight nine project manager: mm ? industrial designer: maybe it is it just n project manager: eight , eight point two . that 's user interface: nine points , project manager: hmm ? user interface: okay , yes . project manager: eight point two , right ? so , we looks like we are well within budget . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . i guess i should save this i suppose , huh ? marketing: yeah . project manager: oops . uh-huh huh huh . user interface: on the desktop . project manager: i just tried that . my documents , computer . industrial designer: ami . project manager: my compu ah oh here it is , yes . industrial designer: ami should for project manager: okay , fine . save . okay good , so that 's the good news . we gon na be popular . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: project manager: um . so that uh i think financing was pretty simple . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: now we would like to have a presentation by the marketing expert on production evaluation . marketing: okay , i 'll take my file down so you can bring it up . 'kay should be able to get it now . 'kay , why do n't you move just to the next slide right away . project manager: you wan na go to the next slide ? marketing: yeah right away . project manager: okay . marketing: okay , well uh obviously my method for uh s m the marketing of this thing is first to ask the big question , will it sell ? and i think we should show this prototype to people from various age and socio-economic groups and see about any fine tuning that maybe little things we have n't thought of . user interface: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: we ca n't accept every suggestion of course , but maybe we just need to get a few . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and show the the prototype to consumer research groups , we do n't s want somebody to suddenly come to us and tell us that this button is toxic and you know some child will swallow it and then we wo n't sell any . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm . marketing: so we have to get some input from those people . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and then after that we just have to go with our best intuition and you know we like it , we think it 's good , we 're gon na get behind it and sell it . um , next slide please . okay , now the things that i was thinking and th my wish list has really been realised in this prototype . i wanted the shape to be biomorphic , i did n't want anything with angles and all square , i wanted it to be comfy and roundy so we we 've got that . the size is small , the colour 's bright and warm which is what we wanted . we wanted the feel to be as soft as possible , we 'll have the soft buttons industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and the way this is shaped , even though it 's gon na be hard plastic , it feels good in your hand so that 's nice . and functionality i put last on my list because people are n't going to use it before they buy it . industrial designer: marketing: so paradoxically the other features , in other words , the look , the feel um and the shape , that 's what people are gon na get in the store . user interface: fee selling . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: they do n't have a television in the store , they ca n't play with it . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um so they 'll be our main selling points . so um th those have been fulfilled by your prototype and go ahead to the next slide please . okay , so um the shape um i think is a a one . that 's really , really excellent shape . the size is small um and th these points are in the importance for the , for the marketing , these are n't i in how i feel . i think that it 's i think that it 's plenty small enough to sell but i think we 're sort of right the scale is one to seven . i think we 're sort of right in the middle as far as c other competitors . user interface: okay . marketing: and our colour i think is great . the colours are bright and warm and we really do great job there . and given um the constraints that we had i think we got it as soft as possible . and then functionality um i think you did a really good job on functionality , obviously we could have ad added different functions but then we 'd disturb something else so i would say that we got to a five out of seven on on functionality . user interface: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so i think that basically we 've got a great product and we can get off and running with it . project manager: um i just realised one thing . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: in the financing there was no room for our voice recogniser . marketing: yes . user interface: yes . marketing: ah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i do n't know how we can evaluate that or how we can include that , too . marketing: well , um we had what , eight eight euros twenty as our cost ? project manager: eight , eight twenty , yes . industrial designer: eight twenty so marketing: and so we 've got we 've still got four euros to go to spend . industrial designer: we have um four euros , yeah project manager: i mean maximum we have another four point three euros i mean four thirty . marketing: mm-hmm . well um that 's project manager: but i mean we have no way of presenting that to management as you know as a f finished , as a finished product and saying okay with the voice recogniser that costs so much . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so um we just have to beware of that . i mean and know whether the four thirty will really cover that . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: well as we know in today 's technic technological world you can do just about anything at any price , the the the problem is quality . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so we 're just gon na have to settle for whatever quality that will buy us . industrial designer: yeah , user interface: yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and um it may not be the greatest quality but it may sell anyway . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , still . marketing: as we 've seen with so many of these kinds of products . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i 'm sorry to interrupt then but i just uh recog i just remembered that there was no that that was not um included uh that there was no room for any special features , okay ? industrial designer: included , yeah . hmm , user interface: yeah mm . industrial designer: hmm project manager: so to beware of that . you wan na go to this next slide , marketing expert ? marketing: uh , well i is n't this my last slide ? project manager: i dunno . marketing: maybe . project manager: yes it is . mm-hmm . marketing: go ahead . i think that was my last slide , yeah . um . mm okay . and i 'm supposed to present this scale on the whiteboard . um and we 're supposed to talk about those things as a team now , so if you put my last slide back up there . project manager: oh . marketing: i 'm sorry i 've um forgot to do that , um . project manager: why ? wh why you need that up ? marketing: hmm ? well because i ca n't remember what i put on there . okay . industrial designer: marketing: now i 'm supposed to see how long my leash is here . project manager: i think you can make it there . marketing: mm 'kay . you ready . so now we 're all supposed to say what we think . um okay so on shape i gave it a one . wait what would you ra uh one being good and seven being the worst . user interface: worse , okay . marketing: um what do you think the shape is ? user interface: one . marketing: one , okay , and be betsy ? project manager: yes i think uh shape is one . industrial designer: yeah , even my yeah , shape is one . marketing: okay , uh-huh one , okay . and how about on size ? on size project manager: you you gave it a four . marketing: i gave it a four , yeah , i feel it 's just average . project manager: um , i dunno . i think i would give it at least a two . marketing: okay . user interface: one . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , even i think it is one . it 's quite small . marketing: okay . okay user interface: marketing: you 're the designer , of course you wan na give it a one . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um and then how about how we doing on colour ? project manager: colour uh i marketing: colour , i gave it a one . project manager: one . marketing: i really like all those nice bright , warm colours . project manager: i i like the colours . one . user interface: one . yes . marketing: one . industrial designer: yeah , one . marketing: one , one , one , okay . and how about the feel ? taking into um consideration texture and comfort in the hand . project manager: uh , i think i would give it a two . marketing: okay , i gave it a three , two , user interface: i 'll give three . marketing: yeah ? three . industrial designer: uh maybe two , marketing: two , okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and the next is functionality where i i admit i was a little hard on our team here , but project manager: well it 's also you ca n't really try it out uh the other things you have have more is are more tangible so from that point of view marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: but um i 'll give it a three . marketing: okay . user interface: two . marketing: two , okay . industrial designer: uh three , mm-hmm . marketing: three ? okay . well , um . it looks like we 've got got ourselves a pretty good product . um the functionality 's the only place where maybe we have to think about m m maybe , heaven forbid , having another meeting . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but um otherwise i think we 're we 're ready to go to go with this product . anybody else have any other comments or any other things that we feel we should evaluate ? project manager: uh . here is what we looking at uh satisfaction on for example room for creativity . um . is there more room for creativity or are we absolutely happy ? user interface: we can always improve , yes . industrial designer: maybe we can yeah , include some more buttons and uh um user interface: yes , features . industrial designer: yeah features . we can make the buttons few buttons smaller . uh i think they are quite big , so i think i i mean we can just have small buttons and more buttons in that case . if we want to have more features than that . marketing: mm-hmm . well then again if we 're gon na um do the speech recognition thing we 're gon there gon na be some buttons that are gon na have to be added for that for the recording of the the speech . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , definitely . user interface: yes . voices . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so that that 's where we 're gon na have to do maybe we can eliminate one of the mute buttons , instead of having two mute buttons . industrial designer: yeah , definitely , yeah , two mu mute buttons . user interface: yes . yes . marketing: and um then maybe we can do something with the um the volume control . maybe we can put that all on one button . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: um and a couple of other th maybe comp uh consolidate some of the usage an and see what we can do with that . project manager: y um al always bearing in mind that right now we are of course well within the budget industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and maybe project manager: and that we still you know we probably ca n't , with this particular item , we probably ca n't just uh add a whole lot of more things . marketing: mm-hmm . no . project manager: uh um we need uh you know we need to leave space money-wise for the voice recogniser . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so th the question really is how do we feel with the project process ? uh , um are we happy with the creativity that has passed here or we 're not happy with the new product we created or that was created ? uh i think personally i think uh i 'm pretty happy . marketing: i 'm pretty happy with it too , yeah um , project manager: um an industrial designer: even i 'm happy . marketing: it 's something i think i can market . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and then the next question is are we happy with the leadership of this project ? uh marketing: i think you 've done a good job , miss leader . user interface: yes , yes you 've done a good job . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , definitely . project manager: and i think team work i think was very very good , i think we really industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah i d i do too i think we worked well together as a team , yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i think we are we happy with the means we used ? we used whiteboard , we did n't use digital p well digital pens i guess are these things . marketing: yeah maybe we could 've used the whiteboard a little bit more , yeah , user interface: whiteboard more , yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah , probably . marketing: we did n't use that enough . project manager: yes , we could . uh , it 's maybe not in the best position in the room um you know like sometimes it 's positioned so that it 's much better visible for everybody and i think from that point of view we sort of ignored it a little bit . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: and we used the slide because it was better positioned . project manager: yes , i think so , i think absolutely , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: no . marketing: mm i think that 's true mm-hmm . project manager: and fortunately we all had slides presentation which made it a little easier . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um did we new did we find new ideas ? user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think we did . industrial designer: yeah , many . marketing: i think we were we were very good , yeah , mm . project manager: i think we we did , uh in more than one respect and uh so i think we did very well here . marketing: mm-hmm . okay . project manager: are the costs within budget ? yes , yes . uh is the project evaluated ? yes . marketing: yes , yes . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um then celebration . marketing: celebration . user interface: cel celebration yes , yes . industrial designer: ah . marketing: today we have apple juice and after we sell m million of 'em we have champagne . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: so i i thank you all very much . um , i think this was very good and um industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think we did come up with a new product that 's uh feasible . feasible from the production point of view and feasible from a marketing point of view . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: so , thank you . marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: thank you . industrial designer: thank you very much . marketing: okay . watch i i have my cord behind you here . user interface: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: i always get it on here , but getting it off is industrial designer: do we do we have some time left ? uh you have user interface: they say it 's forty minutes . project manager: ah yes we have time later marketing: but we we were told we could end the final meeting at any time , whenever we felt we were finished . project manager: but we do n't user interface: okay . industrial designer: oh , alright . marketing: it 'll take me the rest of the time to get my microphone out from my necklace . oh , there we go .

battery would be the energy source and the electronics would be regular chips on print . for the case , it would be double-curved and made from plastic in special colours , whereas buttons would come in different forms and colour and would be made in rubber or wood . in addition , there would be no clock . with the cost of eight twenty , the remote was within budget with the cost of voice recognizer excluded . only four thirty euros was left to cover it so they would have to settle with what they get within the budget with no money for other special features .

what were marketing 's comments on the remote during the project evaluation ? </s> project manager: well hi everyone again . user interface: hello . industrial designer: hello . marketing: hello project manager: um like before we uh i have to redo the meetings from n th the minutes from the last meeting marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and so here we go . uh it was discussed in the last meeting uh which was opened by the presentation from the interface um designer that uh looks would be very important on this new remote user interface: designer . marketing: project manager: and um it is to send messages of course to the tv . it should have nine channel buttons , a next button , volume buttons , subtitle buttons , switch to control features , colour contrast , sharpness etcetera . it should have a memory switch , a mute button in case the telephone rings or something . uh speech recognition is one of her very f favourite personal uh features she would like see d d to be integrated in this um in this new remote . um . should be child friendly design with few buttons , colourful maybe with s star shaped or other shaped buttons . um she uh presented also an oversized remote which she guarantees nobody will ever be able to lose . user interface: project manager: um marketing: and she was challenged on that point project manager: that 's right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: project manager: but uh her very f personal favourite really she , she would very much like to see a speech recogniser integrated in this remote . the industrial designer um presented her uh thoughts on the issue . she would like a special case made out of plastic that is very strong , not using any harmful materials , should be recyclable and should be colourful . should have an integrated circuit board that 's highly sophisticated and temperature resistant . she would like to see a timer and or alarm facility integrated . uh technically this thing would also have a resistor and a capacitor , diode transistor , resonator , and if possible a rechargeable battery . uh and of course a circuit board . and how it would works , you press the button , the chip is morse morse code related relays the uh to the generat to the generator amplification and uh the circuit board is very inexpensive to build and so she thinks this is a great feature uh to to to consider . marketing: okay . project manager: she would like uh this whole thing should be push buttons with a simple chip uh scrolling method is more expensive and not that practical anymore . should be battery operated and of course she would have the special cases . the marketing expert uh who has to finally come up with to to to market this product has been watching the competition , has done some research on the internet and also has used h her personal observations to come up with the fact that such a remote sh should be small , easy to use and it should be eye catching . from her point of view of course one of the most important facts is that we should get to market before our competition does . to do that uh maybe one or two features should be developed on which we could dwell on or in other words on which our campaign could be built on . too many new features or too many points would only confuse matter . so we prefer to have one or two features that can be really uh driven home . um it should have a fruit and vegetable design and should have a soft feel . she feels that 's really what people want today . and the decision that we took last time was that uh the special feature we would like to see is a speech recogniser , the energy should be battery uh should be on a chip , should be trendy design , compact and strong , and should have buttons . and that concludes the presentation from the last minutes from the last meeting . now uh we are ready for the presentation of the prototype . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: just the look like , the button part i 'll explain . industrial designer: yeah . uh so this is our what uh we have made . this is a model of the remote control which we are going to build . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh this is us in a snail shape so uh it it is attractive marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and it 's it 's blue in colour uh bright and uh it has yellow buttons and all the different colour buttons marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so it is a uh uh a looks-wise it is beautiful . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh and also compact in shape . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh um and also i it it will be easily fit into into the hands and you can access all the buttons easily . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . good . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: industrial designer: oops , sorry . marketing: you used to have all the buttons user interface: industrial designer: um yeah and um uh the material which we are going to use for the case is uh plastic and uh w which which is s strong um uh and also uh for the um the material is plastic and uh for the buttons it is uh s soft rubber um and als marketing: oh that 's good , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: no , that 's nice and friendly . industrial designer: yeah because uh uh you 'll be touching the buttons more so it is soft when you touch it . marketing: mm-hmm . mm . project manager: mm-hmm , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then um uh for the for the led , for the light emitting diode it is a fluorescent green marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and it 's a a it is a bulb like an ordinary infrared . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and and the button button 's part uh will be explained by f francina . user interface: okay . marketing: okay . user interface: now the um we decided upon including certain features on our remote . now these features includes the s um signal emitting uh signal it 's the led or l_e_d_ the infrared . project manager: mm-hmm , marketing: yeah , okay , mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: now uh we have included the switch on and off button . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: now we have included another feature that is the mute button marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: on the side of the model . then we have included one to nine buttons marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: for controlling the programmes the different channels . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we have also included two buttons for increasing or decreasing the volume . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and we have also included two buttons for scrolling up and scrolling down the programme channels . now our our model also contains a button which is called as the menu button . marketing: mm . project manager: what kind of button ? user interface: menu button . project manager: menu ? uh menu th menu , uh one one . user interface: yes , menu marketing: menu button . user interface: at the centre marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we have included a button which is fluorescent green colour and this is the menu button which will control the colour , sharpness , brightness marketing: mm-hmm . of the screen . mm , mm-hmm . user interface: of this uh picture . we have also included a button which is called as the swapping button . now this is uh a special , special feature which we have included . now this button is an elongated shaped button and this is slightly flexible so if it is turned towards the right it will take to the previous channel , if it is turned towards the right it will take to the next channel . it will take the user to the previous and the next channel so this is a swapping button . marketing: the next channel in the numeric pattern , or user interface: no , swapping is if if example you 're you 're watching the second channel and then you go to the tenth channel and if you want to go back to the second channel you can swap , this button . marketing: yeah , mm-hmm . mm . user interface: yes . marketing: okay , okay . user interface: and at the end , it this remote has inbuilt voice recogniser which c which will recognise the user 's voice and then it 'll act accordingly . project manager: okay . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: so this is our proposed model . marketing: okay . user interface: now the marketing expert has to marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: tell , yeah . user interface: give her suggestion whether it 'll be sellable or it 'll be cost effective . industrial designer: marketing: okay , well um what what i really like a lot about it is that you can reach the whole thing with one thumb , user interface: yes , yes . marketing: that you can really hold it in one h you do n't need two hands industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and it 's easily reachable even for somebody with a small hand , yeah ? project manager: yes the buttons are all raised , right ? marketing: the buttons are all raised project manager: are raised , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: and if you hold it in the centre of your hand you can even reach it over here so you do n't have to turn it around , turn it upside down , move it up , up and down , project manager: right . or have two hands to operate it , yeah . marketing: i really like that . user interface: mm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: you really did a good job on that , my little designers . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um and um i like the idea that the on-off button is in a really prominent place . that 's that 's a really good good thing . project manager: yes , and it sort of sticks up so that you really marketing: yeah , that 's great . project manager: you do n't have to g first go like oh yeah here it 's on and yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: abs okay . marketing: the colour 's very attractive . um the um these buttons uh around here are the mute user interface: no , these the front buttons which are here , are the mute buttons . marketing: and these mm-hmm on both sides they 're mute ? user interface: yes , yes . marketing: so you can push either one ? user interface: yes . marketing: okay . project manager: so if you 're left-handed or right-handed it does n't matter . marketing: and this brings the menu up on the screen ? user interface: pardon me ? this is the menu yes , yes . marketing: this brings the menu up on the screen and the orange ones are user interface: a the the these these two are th to increase or decrease the volumes , marketing: okay . user interface: and these two are to uh scroll the programme channels . marketing: f f okay . user interface: scroll up or scroll down the channels . marketing: right , very good . uh it looks mm looks like something i can sell . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: okay and now i 'm supposed to project manager: well , i have one question marketing: yeah . project manager: uh will there be anything written on the buttons , like that people know , or they have to learn that from a piece of paper which button does what ? user interface: yes , it will have uh these buttons will have the numbers and all the rest of the buttons will have symbols . industrial designer: ah . yeah , definitely . project manager: will have symbols so that that that the user really knows you know and does n't have to first learn it user interface: yes , which can be easily recognised . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: good point because we need the symbols 'cause we 're going into an international market we ca n't have anything that 's language dependent . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah of course , and also user interface: yes . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: yeah . but anyway it would ha i i i it has to have some kind of of symbols , text or something so that people kn industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah we can text . marketing: symbols on it . mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . industrial designer: text that we can have on the case itself , project manager: that 's right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: we can it will be printed on the case and symbols as well as the buttons . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , yeah just wanted make sure of that mm-hmm . user interface: and and one more feature is we we have a holder for this remote which is an oyster shape . marketing: mm , 'kay , mm . mm-hmm . user interface: a shell shape . marketing: for the snail , yeah , mm-hmm , project manager: right , mm-hmm . user interface: yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah . so it is marketing: we have the snail shell . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yes , snail shell . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: he goes right back into his shell . industrial designer: yeah shell . project manager: right . user interface: yes . marketing: well you know i think we could do something really funny with this too because the snail is known to be slow industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and we could have some sort of little comic effect on our marketing about how this is a rapid snail or something like that user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm . user interface: y yes industrial designer: yeah , of course , yeah . marketing: you know that would , that would really work . project manager: now what , what are our special features for the marketing ? marketing: so project manager: that 's really the voice recognition that 's really unusual marketing: i think voice recognition is our big selling point industrial designer: mm . mm-hmm . marketing: 'cause nobody else seems to have that in in this price range . industrial designer: mm . project manager: and then , and then the other thing would basically be sh shape or practicality of use . marketing: yep project manager: you know . marketing: uh well i think that everybody 's gon na say their remote control is practical . i think we have to , we have to dwell on on on the appearance . project manager: colours . mm-hmm . marketing: we 're really gon na have the be the project manager: cutest . marketing: cutest remote control on the block . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm . marketing: so i think we have to play with the image , play with the snail image um play with the visual and then the voice recognition . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: i think those are the two things to push . the look and the voice recognition . they 're gon na be our two selling points . project manager: okay , now uh having said that marketing: i 'm supposed to make a little presentation , are n't i ? project manager: no , now this was our evaluation criteria which we uh just have done . marketing: okay . project manager: now we 're gon na talk about financing . marketing: ah , but in my instructions i think it said i was supposed to go to the board and do something . project manager: well , there is a production evaluation . marketing: no ? project manager: is that you ? marketing: yeah , that 's me . project manager: but that 's after the financing . marketing: oh , okay . project manager: see ? fi see ? marketing: sorry , sorry . mm-mm . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: um . okay , we had looks and voice recognition . okay now on the financing we bring up the mm there it is . okay uh energy source we say that 's battery , right ? industrial designer: mm . marketing: that 's right . project manager: okay , now . so we i guess we use one . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: what ? t cell or chart you are trying to change is protected . well , that 's nice . she told me i could just ch change it here and then it would it does n't work . hmm . marketing: can you just fill it in in the yellow boxes ? or project manager: oh , okay yeah , okay , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: let 's see . okay , one , okay . user interface: yes . project manager: oh go away . um kinetic source so that 's in the energy source that 's all we need . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: uh electronics , simple chip on print ? is that 's what we 're using ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: one of those ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: come on . okay , one . uh regular chip on print . no . that 's all we need , the one industrial designer: no . yeah . project manager: case , uncurved flat , single curved , double curved . marketing: well . industrial designer: this is a user interface: single curve ? mm . marketing: i guess it 's double curved . project manager: double curved ? one of those ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: case materi s supplements . plastic we said , right ? user interface: plastic . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh wood , rubber ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: rubber , because we 're gon na have the soft buttons . project manager: uh but , yes but industrial designer: i think uh that is uh f for rubbers that is uh yeah case material . project manager: that 's just for the case material , user interface: is this for the case ? yes . project manager: so special colours though , we having that , marketing: oh okay , the mm-hmm , mm ' kay . project manager: right ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then we have to interface push buttons . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: scroll wheel , no . integrated scroll wheel , l_c_ display ? user interface: no . marketing: no , project manager: button . marketing: 'cause we did n't put the clock in it after all , right ? project manager: no . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh , button supplement special colour ? user interface: speci yes project manager: special form ? user interface: yes d we do have special form . marketing: yes . project manager: and special material , rubber , wood , yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . total seven point six whatever that means . industrial designer: uh , i think that 's the price . project manager: that 's the price . user interface: one two three four five six seven eight nine project manager: mm ? industrial designer: maybe it is it just n project manager: eight , eight point two . that 's user interface: nine points , project manager: hmm ? user interface: okay , yes . project manager: eight point two , right ? so , we looks like we are well within budget . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . i guess i should save this i suppose , huh ? marketing: yeah . project manager: oops . uh-huh huh huh . user interface: on the desktop . project manager: i just tried that . my documents , computer . industrial designer: ami . project manager: my compu ah oh here it is , yes . industrial designer: ami should for project manager: okay , fine . save . okay good , so that 's the good news . we gon na be popular . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: project manager: um . so that uh i think financing was pretty simple . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: now we would like to have a presentation by the marketing expert on production evaluation . marketing: okay , i 'll take my file down so you can bring it up . 'kay should be able to get it now . 'kay , why do n't you move just to the next slide right away . project manager: you wan na go to the next slide ? marketing: yeah right away . project manager: okay . marketing: okay , well uh obviously my method for uh s m the marketing of this thing is first to ask the big question , will it sell ? and i think we should show this prototype to people from various age and socio-economic groups and see about any fine tuning that maybe little things we have n't thought of . user interface: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: we ca n't accept every suggestion of course , but maybe we just need to get a few . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and show the the prototype to consumer research groups , we do n't s want somebody to suddenly come to us and tell us that this button is toxic and you know some child will swallow it and then we wo n't sell any . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm . marketing: so we have to get some input from those people . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and then after that we just have to go with our best intuition and you know we like it , we think it 's good , we 're gon na get behind it and sell it . um , next slide please . okay , now the things that i was thinking and th my wish list has really been realised in this prototype . i wanted the shape to be biomorphic , i did n't want anything with angles and all square , i wanted it to be comfy and roundy so we we 've got that . the size is small , the colour 's bright and warm which is what we wanted . we wanted the feel to be as soft as possible , we 'll have the soft buttons industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and the way this is shaped , even though it 's gon na be hard plastic , it feels good in your hand so that 's nice . and functionality i put last on my list because people are n't going to use it before they buy it . industrial designer: marketing: so paradoxically the other features , in other words , the look , the feel um and the shape , that 's what people are gon na get in the store . user interface: fee selling . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: they do n't have a television in the store , they ca n't play with it . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um so they 'll be our main selling points . so um th those have been fulfilled by your prototype and go ahead to the next slide please . okay , so um the shape um i think is a a one . that 's really , really excellent shape . the size is small um and th these points are in the importance for the , for the marketing , these are n't i in how i feel . i think that it 's i think that it 's plenty small enough to sell but i think we 're sort of right the scale is one to seven . i think we 're sort of right in the middle as far as c other competitors . user interface: okay . marketing: and our colour i think is great . the colours are bright and warm and we really do great job there . and given um the constraints that we had i think we got it as soft as possible . and then functionality um i think you did a really good job on functionality , obviously we could have ad added different functions but then we 'd disturb something else so i would say that we got to a five out of seven on on functionality . user interface: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so i think that basically we 've got a great product and we can get off and running with it . project manager: um i just realised one thing . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: in the financing there was no room for our voice recogniser . marketing: yes . user interface: yes . marketing: ah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i do n't know how we can evaluate that or how we can include that , too . marketing: well , um we had what , eight eight euros twenty as our cost ? project manager: eight , eight twenty , yes . industrial designer: eight twenty so marketing: and so we 've got we 've still got four euros to go to spend . industrial designer: we have um four euros , yeah project manager: i mean maximum we have another four point three euros i mean four thirty . marketing: mm-hmm . well um that 's project manager: but i mean we have no way of presenting that to management as you know as a f finished , as a finished product and saying okay with the voice recogniser that costs so much . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so um we just have to beware of that . i mean and know whether the four thirty will really cover that . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: well as we know in today 's technic technological world you can do just about anything at any price , the the the problem is quality . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so we 're just gon na have to settle for whatever quality that will buy us . industrial designer: yeah , user interface: yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and um it may not be the greatest quality but it may sell anyway . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , still . marketing: as we 've seen with so many of these kinds of products . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i 'm sorry to interrupt then but i just uh recog i just remembered that there was no that that was not um included uh that there was no room for any special features , okay ? industrial designer: included , yeah . hmm , user interface: yeah mm . industrial designer: hmm project manager: so to beware of that . you wan na go to this next slide , marketing expert ? marketing: uh , well i is n't this my last slide ? project manager: i dunno . marketing: maybe . project manager: yes it is . mm-hmm . marketing: go ahead . i think that was my last slide , yeah . um . mm okay . and i 'm supposed to present this scale on the whiteboard . um and we 're supposed to talk about those things as a team now , so if you put my last slide back up there . project manager: oh . marketing: i 'm sorry i 've um forgot to do that , um . project manager: why ? wh why you need that up ? marketing: hmm ? well because i ca n't remember what i put on there . okay . industrial designer: marketing: now i 'm supposed to see how long my leash is here . project manager: i think you can make it there . marketing: mm 'kay . you ready . so now we 're all supposed to say what we think . um okay so on shape i gave it a one . wait what would you ra uh one being good and seven being the worst . user interface: worse , okay . marketing: um what do you think the shape is ? user interface: one . marketing: one , okay , and be betsy ? project manager: yes i think uh shape is one . industrial designer: yeah , even my yeah , shape is one . marketing: okay , uh-huh one , okay . and how about on size ? on size project manager: you you gave it a four . marketing: i gave it a four , yeah , i feel it 's just average . project manager: um , i dunno . i think i would give it at least a two . marketing: okay . user interface: one . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , even i think it is one . it 's quite small . marketing: okay . okay user interface: marketing: you 're the designer , of course you wan na give it a one . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um and then how about how we doing on colour ? project manager: colour uh i marketing: colour , i gave it a one . project manager: one . marketing: i really like all those nice bright , warm colours . project manager: i i like the colours . one . user interface: one . yes . marketing: one . industrial designer: yeah , one . marketing: one , one , one , okay . and how about the feel ? taking into um consideration texture and comfort in the hand . project manager: uh , i think i would give it a two . marketing: okay , i gave it a three , two , user interface: i 'll give three . marketing: yeah ? three . industrial designer: uh maybe two , marketing: two , okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and the next is functionality where i i admit i was a little hard on our team here , but project manager: well it 's also you ca n't really try it out uh the other things you have have more is are more tangible so from that point of view marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: but um i 'll give it a three . marketing: okay . user interface: two . marketing: two , okay . industrial designer: uh three , mm-hmm . marketing: three ? okay . well , um . it looks like we 've got got ourselves a pretty good product . um the functionality 's the only place where maybe we have to think about m m maybe , heaven forbid , having another meeting . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but um otherwise i think we 're we 're ready to go to go with this product . anybody else have any other comments or any other things that we feel we should evaluate ? project manager: uh . here is what we looking at uh satisfaction on for example room for creativity . um . is there more room for creativity or are we absolutely happy ? user interface: we can always improve , yes . industrial designer: maybe we can yeah , include some more buttons and uh um user interface: yes , features . industrial designer: yeah features . we can make the buttons few buttons smaller . uh i think they are quite big , so i think i i mean we can just have small buttons and more buttons in that case . if we want to have more features than that . marketing: mm-hmm . well then again if we 're gon na um do the speech recognition thing we 're gon there gon na be some buttons that are gon na have to be added for that for the recording of the the speech . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , definitely . user interface: yes . voices . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so that that 's where we 're gon na have to do maybe we can eliminate one of the mute buttons , instead of having two mute buttons . industrial designer: yeah , definitely , yeah , two mu mute buttons . user interface: yes . yes . marketing: and um then maybe we can do something with the um the volume control . maybe we can put that all on one button . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: um and a couple of other th maybe comp uh consolidate some of the usage an and see what we can do with that . project manager: y um al always bearing in mind that right now we are of course well within the budget industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and maybe project manager: and that we still you know we probably ca n't , with this particular item , we probably ca n't just uh add a whole lot of more things . marketing: mm-hmm . no . project manager: uh um we need uh you know we need to leave space money-wise for the voice recogniser . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so th the question really is how do we feel with the project process ? uh , um are we happy with the creativity that has passed here or we 're not happy with the new product we created or that was created ? uh i think personally i think uh i 'm pretty happy . marketing: i 'm pretty happy with it too , yeah um , project manager: um an industrial designer: even i 'm happy . marketing: it 's something i think i can market . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and then the next question is are we happy with the leadership of this project ? uh marketing: i think you 've done a good job , miss leader . user interface: yes , yes you 've done a good job . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , definitely . project manager: and i think team work i think was very very good , i think we really industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah i d i do too i think we worked well together as a team , yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i think we are we happy with the means we used ? we used whiteboard , we did n't use digital p well digital pens i guess are these things . marketing: yeah maybe we could 've used the whiteboard a little bit more , yeah , user interface: whiteboard more , yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah , probably . marketing: we did n't use that enough . project manager: yes , we could . uh , it 's maybe not in the best position in the room um you know like sometimes it 's positioned so that it 's much better visible for everybody and i think from that point of view we sort of ignored it a little bit . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: and we used the slide because it was better positioned . project manager: yes , i think so , i think absolutely , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: no . marketing: mm i think that 's true mm-hmm . project manager: and fortunately we all had slides presentation which made it a little easier . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um did we new did we find new ideas ? user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think we did . industrial designer: yeah , many . marketing: i think we were we were very good , yeah , mm . project manager: i think we we did , uh in more than one respect and uh so i think we did very well here . marketing: mm-hmm . okay . project manager: are the costs within budget ? yes , yes . uh is the project evaluated ? yes . marketing: yes , yes . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um then celebration . marketing: celebration . user interface: cel celebration yes , yes . industrial designer: ah . marketing: today we have apple juice and after we sell m million of 'em we have champagne . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: so i i thank you all very much . um , i think this was very good and um industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think we did come up with a new product that 's uh feasible . feasible from the production point of view and feasible from a marketing point of view . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: so , thank you . marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: thank you . industrial designer: thank you very much . marketing: okay . watch i i have my cord behind you here . user interface: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: i always get it on here , but getting it off is industrial designer: do we do we have some time left ? uh you have user interface: they say it 's forty minutes . project manager: ah yes we have time later marketing: but we we were told we could end the final meeting at any time , whenever we felt we were finished . project manager: but we do n't user interface: okay . industrial designer: oh , alright . marketing: it 'll take me the rest of the time to get my microphone out from my necklace . oh , there we go .

the prototype should be shown to people of various age and socio-economic groups to see if there should be any fine-tuning . also , it should be shown to consumer research groups for feedback . marketing concluded that the prototype reached the goal of being biomorphic , soft and compact with bright and warm colours and felt good in hands . all in all , marketing believed that it was a great product and would be saleable in the market .

summarize the product evaluation that was during the project evaluation . </s> project manager: well hi everyone again . user interface: hello . industrial designer: hello . marketing: hello project manager: um like before we uh i have to redo the meetings from n th the minutes from the last meeting marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and so here we go . uh it was discussed in the last meeting uh which was opened by the presentation from the interface um designer that uh looks would be very important on this new remote user interface: designer . marketing: project manager: and um it is to send messages of course to the tv . it should have nine channel buttons , a next button , volume buttons , subtitle buttons , switch to control features , colour contrast , sharpness etcetera . it should have a memory switch , a mute button in case the telephone rings or something . uh speech recognition is one of her very f favourite personal uh features she would like see d d to be integrated in this um in this new remote . um . should be child friendly design with few buttons , colourful maybe with s star shaped or other shaped buttons . um she uh presented also an oversized remote which she guarantees nobody will ever be able to lose . user interface: project manager: um marketing: and she was challenged on that point project manager: that 's right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: project manager: but uh her very f personal favourite really she , she would very much like to see a speech recogniser integrated in this remote . the industrial designer um presented her uh thoughts on the issue . she would like a special case made out of plastic that is very strong , not using any harmful materials , should be recyclable and should be colourful . should have an integrated circuit board that 's highly sophisticated and temperature resistant . she would like to see a timer and or alarm facility integrated . uh technically this thing would also have a resistor and a capacitor , diode transistor , resonator , and if possible a rechargeable battery . uh and of course a circuit board . and how it would works , you press the button , the chip is morse morse code related relays the uh to the generat to the generator amplification and uh the circuit board is very inexpensive to build and so she thinks this is a great feature uh to to to consider . marketing: okay . project manager: she would like uh this whole thing should be push buttons with a simple chip uh scrolling method is more expensive and not that practical anymore . should be battery operated and of course she would have the special cases . the marketing expert uh who has to finally come up with to to to market this product has been watching the competition , has done some research on the internet and also has used h her personal observations to come up with the fact that such a remote sh should be small , easy to use and it should be eye catching . from her point of view of course one of the most important facts is that we should get to market before our competition does . to do that uh maybe one or two features should be developed on which we could dwell on or in other words on which our campaign could be built on . too many new features or too many points would only confuse matter . so we prefer to have one or two features that can be really uh driven home . um it should have a fruit and vegetable design and should have a soft feel . she feels that 's really what people want today . and the decision that we took last time was that uh the special feature we would like to see is a speech recogniser , the energy should be battery uh should be on a chip , should be trendy design , compact and strong , and should have buttons . and that concludes the presentation from the last minutes from the last meeting . now uh we are ready for the presentation of the prototype . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: just the look like , the button part i 'll explain . industrial designer: yeah . uh so this is our what uh we have made . this is a model of the remote control which we are going to build . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh this is us in a snail shape so uh it it is attractive marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and it 's it 's blue in colour uh bright and uh it has yellow buttons and all the different colour buttons marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so it is a uh uh a looks-wise it is beautiful . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh and also compact in shape . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh um and also i it it will be easily fit into into the hands and you can access all the buttons easily . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . good . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: industrial designer: oops , sorry . marketing: you used to have all the buttons user interface: industrial designer: um yeah and um uh the material which we are going to use for the case is uh plastic and uh w which which is s strong um uh and also uh for the um the material is plastic and uh for the buttons it is uh s soft rubber um and als marketing: oh that 's good , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: no , that 's nice and friendly . industrial designer: yeah because uh uh you 'll be touching the buttons more so it is soft when you touch it . marketing: mm-hmm . mm . project manager: mm-hmm , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then um uh for the for the led , for the light emitting diode it is a fluorescent green marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and it 's a a it is a bulb like an ordinary infrared . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and and the button button 's part uh will be explained by f francina . user interface: okay . marketing: okay . user interface: now the um we decided upon including certain features on our remote . now these features includes the s um signal emitting uh signal it 's the led or l_e_d_ the infrared . project manager: mm-hmm , marketing: yeah , okay , mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: now uh we have included the switch on and off button . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: now we have included another feature that is the mute button marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: on the side of the model . then we have included one to nine buttons marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: for controlling the programmes the different channels . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we have also included two buttons for increasing or decreasing the volume . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and we have also included two buttons for scrolling up and scrolling down the programme channels . now our our model also contains a button which is called as the menu button . marketing: mm . project manager: what kind of button ? user interface: menu button . project manager: menu ? uh menu th menu , uh one one . user interface: yes , menu marketing: menu button . user interface: at the centre marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we have included a button which is fluorescent green colour and this is the menu button which will control the colour , sharpness , brightness marketing: mm-hmm . of the screen . mm , mm-hmm . user interface: of this uh picture . we have also included a button which is called as the swapping button . now this is uh a special , special feature which we have included . now this button is an elongated shaped button and this is slightly flexible so if it is turned towards the right it will take to the previous channel , if it is turned towards the right it will take to the next channel . it will take the user to the previous and the next channel so this is a swapping button . marketing: the next channel in the numeric pattern , or user interface: no , swapping is if if example you 're you 're watching the second channel and then you go to the tenth channel and if you want to go back to the second channel you can swap , this button . marketing: yeah , mm-hmm . mm . user interface: yes . marketing: okay , okay . user interface: and at the end , it this remote has inbuilt voice recogniser which c which will recognise the user 's voice and then it 'll act accordingly . project manager: okay . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: so this is our proposed model . marketing: okay . user interface: now the marketing expert has to marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: tell , yeah . user interface: give her suggestion whether it 'll be sellable or it 'll be cost effective . industrial designer: marketing: okay , well um what what i really like a lot about it is that you can reach the whole thing with one thumb , user interface: yes , yes . marketing: that you can really hold it in one h you do n't need two hands industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and it 's easily reachable even for somebody with a small hand , yeah ? project manager: yes the buttons are all raised , right ? marketing: the buttons are all raised project manager: are raised , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: and if you hold it in the centre of your hand you can even reach it over here so you do n't have to turn it around , turn it upside down , move it up , up and down , project manager: right . or have two hands to operate it , yeah . marketing: i really like that . user interface: mm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: you really did a good job on that , my little designers . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um and um i like the idea that the on-off button is in a really prominent place . that 's that 's a really good good thing . project manager: yes , and it sort of sticks up so that you really marketing: yeah , that 's great . project manager: you do n't have to g first go like oh yeah here it 's on and yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: abs okay . marketing: the colour 's very attractive . um the um these buttons uh around here are the mute user interface: no , these the front buttons which are here , are the mute buttons . marketing: and these mm-hmm on both sides they 're mute ? user interface: yes , yes . marketing: so you can push either one ? user interface: yes . marketing: okay . project manager: so if you 're left-handed or right-handed it does n't matter . marketing: and this brings the menu up on the screen ? user interface: pardon me ? this is the menu yes , yes . marketing: this brings the menu up on the screen and the orange ones are user interface: a the the these these two are th to increase or decrease the volumes , marketing: okay . user interface: and these two are to uh scroll the programme channels . marketing: f f okay . user interface: scroll up or scroll down the channels . marketing: right , very good . uh it looks mm looks like something i can sell . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: okay and now i 'm supposed to project manager: well , i have one question marketing: yeah . project manager: uh will there be anything written on the buttons , like that people know , or they have to learn that from a piece of paper which button does what ? user interface: yes , it will have uh these buttons will have the numbers and all the rest of the buttons will have symbols . industrial designer: ah . yeah , definitely . project manager: will have symbols so that that that the user really knows you know and does n't have to first learn it user interface: yes , which can be easily recognised . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: good point because we need the symbols 'cause we 're going into an international market we ca n't have anything that 's language dependent . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah of course , and also user interface: yes . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: yeah . but anyway it would ha i i i it has to have some kind of of symbols , text or something so that people kn industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah we can text . marketing: symbols on it . mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . industrial designer: text that we can have on the case itself , project manager: that 's right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: we can it will be printed on the case and symbols as well as the buttons . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , yeah just wanted make sure of that mm-hmm . user interface: and and one more feature is we we have a holder for this remote which is an oyster shape . marketing: mm , 'kay , mm . mm-hmm . user interface: a shell shape . marketing: for the snail , yeah , mm-hmm , project manager: right , mm-hmm . user interface: yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah . so it is marketing: we have the snail shell . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yes , snail shell . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: he goes right back into his shell . industrial designer: yeah shell . project manager: right . user interface: yes . marketing: well you know i think we could do something really funny with this too because the snail is known to be slow industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and we could have some sort of little comic effect on our marketing about how this is a rapid snail or something like that user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm . user interface: y yes industrial designer: yeah , of course , yeah . marketing: you know that would , that would really work . project manager: now what , what are our special features for the marketing ? marketing: so project manager: that 's really the voice recognition that 's really unusual marketing: i think voice recognition is our big selling point industrial designer: mm . mm-hmm . marketing: 'cause nobody else seems to have that in in this price range . industrial designer: mm . project manager: and then , and then the other thing would basically be sh shape or practicality of use . marketing: yep project manager: you know . marketing: uh well i think that everybody 's gon na say their remote control is practical . i think we have to , we have to dwell on on on the appearance . project manager: colours . mm-hmm . marketing: we 're really gon na have the be the project manager: cutest . marketing: cutest remote control on the block . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm . marketing: so i think we have to play with the image , play with the snail image um play with the visual and then the voice recognition . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: i think those are the two things to push . the look and the voice recognition . they 're gon na be our two selling points . project manager: okay , now uh having said that marketing: i 'm supposed to make a little presentation , are n't i ? project manager: no , now this was our evaluation criteria which we uh just have done . marketing: okay . project manager: now we 're gon na talk about financing . marketing: ah , but in my instructions i think it said i was supposed to go to the board and do something . project manager: well , there is a production evaluation . marketing: no ? project manager: is that you ? marketing: yeah , that 's me . project manager: but that 's after the financing . marketing: oh , okay . project manager: see ? fi see ? marketing: sorry , sorry . mm-mm . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: um . okay , we had looks and voice recognition . okay now on the financing we bring up the mm there it is . okay uh energy source we say that 's battery , right ? industrial designer: mm . marketing: that 's right . project manager: okay , now . so we i guess we use one . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: what ? t cell or chart you are trying to change is protected . well , that 's nice . she told me i could just ch change it here and then it would it does n't work . hmm . marketing: can you just fill it in in the yellow boxes ? or project manager: oh , okay yeah , okay , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: let 's see . okay , one , okay . user interface: yes . project manager: oh go away . um kinetic source so that 's in the energy source that 's all we need . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: uh electronics , simple chip on print ? is that 's what we 're using ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: one of those ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: come on . okay , one . uh regular chip on print . no . that 's all we need , the one industrial designer: no . yeah . project manager: case , uncurved flat , single curved , double curved . marketing: well . industrial designer: this is a user interface: single curve ? mm . marketing: i guess it 's double curved . project manager: double curved ? one of those ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: case materi s supplements . plastic we said , right ? user interface: plastic . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh wood , rubber ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: rubber , because we 're gon na have the soft buttons . project manager: uh but , yes but industrial designer: i think uh that is uh f for rubbers that is uh yeah case material . project manager: that 's just for the case material , user interface: is this for the case ? yes . project manager: so special colours though , we having that , marketing: oh okay , the mm-hmm , mm ' kay . project manager: right ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then we have to interface push buttons . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: scroll wheel , no . integrated scroll wheel , l_c_ display ? user interface: no . marketing: no , project manager: button . marketing: 'cause we did n't put the clock in it after all , right ? project manager: no . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh , button supplement special colour ? user interface: speci yes project manager: special form ? user interface: yes d we do have special form . marketing: yes . project manager: and special material , rubber , wood , yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . total seven point six whatever that means . industrial designer: uh , i think that 's the price . project manager: that 's the price . user interface: one two three four five six seven eight nine project manager: mm ? industrial designer: maybe it is it just n project manager: eight , eight point two . that 's user interface: nine points , project manager: hmm ? user interface: okay , yes . project manager: eight point two , right ? so , we looks like we are well within budget . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . i guess i should save this i suppose , huh ? marketing: yeah . project manager: oops . uh-huh huh huh . user interface: on the desktop . project manager: i just tried that . my documents , computer . industrial designer: ami . project manager: my compu ah oh here it is , yes . industrial designer: ami should for project manager: okay , fine . save . okay good , so that 's the good news . we gon na be popular . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: project manager: um . so that uh i think financing was pretty simple . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: now we would like to have a presentation by the marketing expert on production evaluation . marketing: okay , i 'll take my file down so you can bring it up . 'kay should be able to get it now . 'kay , why do n't you move just to the next slide right away . project manager: you wan na go to the next slide ? marketing: yeah right away . project manager: okay . marketing: okay , well uh obviously my method for uh s m the marketing of this thing is first to ask the big question , will it sell ? and i think we should show this prototype to people from various age and socio-economic groups and see about any fine tuning that maybe little things we have n't thought of . user interface: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: we ca n't accept every suggestion of course , but maybe we just need to get a few . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and show the the prototype to consumer research groups , we do n't s want somebody to suddenly come to us and tell us that this button is toxic and you know some child will swallow it and then we wo n't sell any . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm . marketing: so we have to get some input from those people . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and then after that we just have to go with our best intuition and you know we like it , we think it 's good , we 're gon na get behind it and sell it . um , next slide please . okay , now the things that i was thinking and th my wish list has really been realised in this prototype . i wanted the shape to be biomorphic , i did n't want anything with angles and all square , i wanted it to be comfy and roundy so we we 've got that . the size is small , the colour 's bright and warm which is what we wanted . we wanted the feel to be as soft as possible , we 'll have the soft buttons industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and the way this is shaped , even though it 's gon na be hard plastic , it feels good in your hand so that 's nice . and functionality i put last on my list because people are n't going to use it before they buy it . industrial designer: marketing: so paradoxically the other features , in other words , the look , the feel um and the shape , that 's what people are gon na get in the store . user interface: fee selling . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: they do n't have a television in the store , they ca n't play with it . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um so they 'll be our main selling points . so um th those have been fulfilled by your prototype and go ahead to the next slide please . okay , so um the shape um i think is a a one . that 's really , really excellent shape . the size is small um and th these points are in the importance for the , for the marketing , these are n't i in how i feel . i think that it 's i think that it 's plenty small enough to sell but i think we 're sort of right the scale is one to seven . i think we 're sort of right in the middle as far as c other competitors . user interface: okay . marketing: and our colour i think is great . the colours are bright and warm and we really do great job there . and given um the constraints that we had i think we got it as soft as possible . and then functionality um i think you did a really good job on functionality , obviously we could have ad added different functions but then we 'd disturb something else so i would say that we got to a five out of seven on on functionality . user interface: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so i think that basically we 've got a great product and we can get off and running with it . project manager: um i just realised one thing . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: in the financing there was no room for our voice recogniser . marketing: yes . user interface: yes . marketing: ah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i do n't know how we can evaluate that or how we can include that , too . marketing: well , um we had what , eight eight euros twenty as our cost ? project manager: eight , eight twenty , yes . industrial designer: eight twenty so marketing: and so we 've got we 've still got four euros to go to spend . industrial designer: we have um four euros , yeah project manager: i mean maximum we have another four point three euros i mean four thirty . marketing: mm-hmm . well um that 's project manager: but i mean we have no way of presenting that to management as you know as a f finished , as a finished product and saying okay with the voice recogniser that costs so much . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so um we just have to beware of that . i mean and know whether the four thirty will really cover that . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: well as we know in today 's technic technological world you can do just about anything at any price , the the the problem is quality . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so we 're just gon na have to settle for whatever quality that will buy us . industrial designer: yeah , user interface: yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and um it may not be the greatest quality but it may sell anyway . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , still . marketing: as we 've seen with so many of these kinds of products . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i 'm sorry to interrupt then but i just uh recog i just remembered that there was no that that was not um included uh that there was no room for any special features , okay ? industrial designer: included , yeah . hmm , user interface: yeah mm . industrial designer: hmm project manager: so to beware of that . you wan na go to this next slide , marketing expert ? marketing: uh , well i is n't this my last slide ? project manager: i dunno . marketing: maybe . project manager: yes it is . mm-hmm . marketing: go ahead . i think that was my last slide , yeah . um . mm okay . and i 'm supposed to present this scale on the whiteboard . um and we 're supposed to talk about those things as a team now , so if you put my last slide back up there . project manager: oh . marketing: i 'm sorry i 've um forgot to do that , um . project manager: why ? wh why you need that up ? marketing: hmm ? well because i ca n't remember what i put on there . okay . industrial designer: marketing: now i 'm supposed to see how long my leash is here . project manager: i think you can make it there . marketing: mm 'kay . you ready . so now we 're all supposed to say what we think . um okay so on shape i gave it a one . wait what would you ra uh one being good and seven being the worst . user interface: worse , okay . marketing: um what do you think the shape is ? user interface: one . marketing: one , okay , and be betsy ? project manager: yes i think uh shape is one . industrial designer: yeah , even my yeah , shape is one . marketing: okay , uh-huh one , okay . and how about on size ? on size project manager: you you gave it a four . marketing: i gave it a four , yeah , i feel it 's just average . project manager: um , i dunno . i think i would give it at least a two . marketing: okay . user interface: one . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , even i think it is one . it 's quite small . marketing: okay . okay user interface: marketing: you 're the designer , of course you wan na give it a one . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um and then how about how we doing on colour ? project manager: colour uh i marketing: colour , i gave it a one . project manager: one . marketing: i really like all those nice bright , warm colours . project manager: i i like the colours . one . user interface: one . yes . marketing: one . industrial designer: yeah , one . marketing: one , one , one , okay . and how about the feel ? taking into um consideration texture and comfort in the hand . project manager: uh , i think i would give it a two . marketing: okay , i gave it a three , two , user interface: i 'll give three . marketing: yeah ? three . industrial designer: uh maybe two , marketing: two , okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and the next is functionality where i i admit i was a little hard on our team here , but project manager: well it 's also you ca n't really try it out uh the other things you have have more is are more tangible so from that point of view marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: but um i 'll give it a three . marketing: okay . user interface: two . marketing: two , okay . industrial designer: uh three , mm-hmm . marketing: three ? okay . well , um . it looks like we 've got got ourselves a pretty good product . um the functionality 's the only place where maybe we have to think about m m maybe , heaven forbid , having another meeting . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but um otherwise i think we 're we 're ready to go to go with this product . anybody else have any other comments or any other things that we feel we should evaluate ? project manager: uh . here is what we looking at uh satisfaction on for example room for creativity . um . is there more room for creativity or are we absolutely happy ? user interface: we can always improve , yes . industrial designer: maybe we can yeah , include some more buttons and uh um user interface: yes , features . industrial designer: yeah features . we can make the buttons few buttons smaller . uh i think they are quite big , so i think i i mean we can just have small buttons and more buttons in that case . if we want to have more features than that . marketing: mm-hmm . well then again if we 're gon na um do the speech recognition thing we 're gon there gon na be some buttons that are gon na have to be added for that for the recording of the the speech . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , definitely . user interface: yes . voices . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so that that 's where we 're gon na have to do maybe we can eliminate one of the mute buttons , instead of having two mute buttons . industrial designer: yeah , definitely , yeah , two mu mute buttons . user interface: yes . yes . marketing: and um then maybe we can do something with the um the volume control . maybe we can put that all on one button . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: um and a couple of other th maybe comp uh consolidate some of the usage an and see what we can do with that . project manager: y um al always bearing in mind that right now we are of course well within the budget industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and maybe project manager: and that we still you know we probably ca n't , with this particular item , we probably ca n't just uh add a whole lot of more things . marketing: mm-hmm . no . project manager: uh um we need uh you know we need to leave space money-wise for the voice recogniser . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so th the question really is how do we feel with the project process ? uh , um are we happy with the creativity that has passed here or we 're not happy with the new product we created or that was created ? uh i think personally i think uh i 'm pretty happy . marketing: i 'm pretty happy with it too , yeah um , project manager: um an industrial designer: even i 'm happy . marketing: it 's something i think i can market . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and then the next question is are we happy with the leadership of this project ? uh marketing: i think you 've done a good job , miss leader . user interface: yes , yes you 've done a good job . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , definitely . project manager: and i think team work i think was very very good , i think we really industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah i d i do too i think we worked well together as a team , yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i think we are we happy with the means we used ? we used whiteboard , we did n't use digital p well digital pens i guess are these things . marketing: yeah maybe we could 've used the whiteboard a little bit more , yeah , user interface: whiteboard more , yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah , probably . marketing: we did n't use that enough . project manager: yes , we could . uh , it 's maybe not in the best position in the room um you know like sometimes it 's positioned so that it 's much better visible for everybody and i think from that point of view we sort of ignored it a little bit . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: and we used the slide because it was better positioned . project manager: yes , i think so , i think absolutely , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: no . marketing: mm i think that 's true mm-hmm . project manager: and fortunately we all had slides presentation which made it a little easier . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um did we new did we find new ideas ? user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think we did . industrial designer: yeah , many . marketing: i think we were we were very good , yeah , mm . project manager: i think we we did , uh in more than one respect and uh so i think we did very well here . marketing: mm-hmm . okay . project manager: are the costs within budget ? yes , yes . uh is the project evaluated ? yes . marketing: yes , yes . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um then celebration . marketing: celebration . user interface: cel celebration yes , yes . industrial designer: ah . marketing: today we have apple juice and after we sell m million of 'em we have champagne . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: so i i thank you all very much . um , i think this was very good and um industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think we did come up with a new product that 's uh feasible . feasible from the production point of view and feasible from a marketing point of view . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: so , thank you . marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: thank you . industrial designer: thank you very much . marketing: okay . watch i i have my cord behind you here . user interface: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: i always get it on here , but getting it off is industrial designer: do we do we have some time left ? uh you have user interface: they say it 's forty minutes . project manager: ah yes we have time later marketing: but we we were told we could end the final meeting at any time , whenever we felt we were finished . project manager: but we do n't user interface: okay . industrial designer: oh , alright . marketing: it 'll take me the rest of the time to get my microphone out from my necklace . oh , there we go .

on a scale of one to seven , with one being good and seven being the worst , everyone rated the shape and colour of the remote with a one . the size was given a mark of four by marketing , a two by project manager and the others gave it a one . for the feel , which included texture and comfort , it scored a three with user interface and a two for the rest . functionality was given a two by user interface and marketing and a three by the other two . all in all , the team was satisfied with the product .

what was discussed for improvement of the remote during project evaluation ? </s> project manager: well hi everyone again . user interface: hello . industrial designer: hello . marketing: hello project manager: um like before we uh i have to redo the meetings from n th the minutes from the last meeting marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and so here we go . uh it was discussed in the last meeting uh which was opened by the presentation from the interface um designer that uh looks would be very important on this new remote user interface: designer . marketing: project manager: and um it is to send messages of course to the tv . it should have nine channel buttons , a next button , volume buttons , subtitle buttons , switch to control features , colour contrast , sharpness etcetera . it should have a memory switch , a mute button in case the telephone rings or something . uh speech recognition is one of her very f favourite personal uh features she would like see d d to be integrated in this um in this new remote . um . should be child friendly design with few buttons , colourful maybe with s star shaped or other shaped buttons . um she uh presented also an oversized remote which she guarantees nobody will ever be able to lose . user interface: project manager: um marketing: and she was challenged on that point project manager: that 's right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: project manager: but uh her very f personal favourite really she , she would very much like to see a speech recogniser integrated in this remote . the industrial designer um presented her uh thoughts on the issue . she would like a special case made out of plastic that is very strong , not using any harmful materials , should be recyclable and should be colourful . should have an integrated circuit board that 's highly sophisticated and temperature resistant . she would like to see a timer and or alarm facility integrated . uh technically this thing would also have a resistor and a capacitor , diode transistor , resonator , and if possible a rechargeable battery . uh and of course a circuit board . and how it would works , you press the button , the chip is morse morse code related relays the uh to the generat to the generator amplification and uh the circuit board is very inexpensive to build and so she thinks this is a great feature uh to to to consider . marketing: okay . project manager: she would like uh this whole thing should be push buttons with a simple chip uh scrolling method is more expensive and not that practical anymore . should be battery operated and of course she would have the special cases . the marketing expert uh who has to finally come up with to to to market this product has been watching the competition , has done some research on the internet and also has used h her personal observations to come up with the fact that such a remote sh should be small , easy to use and it should be eye catching . from her point of view of course one of the most important facts is that we should get to market before our competition does . to do that uh maybe one or two features should be developed on which we could dwell on or in other words on which our campaign could be built on . too many new features or too many points would only confuse matter . so we prefer to have one or two features that can be really uh driven home . um it should have a fruit and vegetable design and should have a soft feel . she feels that 's really what people want today . and the decision that we took last time was that uh the special feature we would like to see is a speech recogniser , the energy should be battery uh should be on a chip , should be trendy design , compact and strong , and should have buttons . and that concludes the presentation from the last minutes from the last meeting . now uh we are ready for the presentation of the prototype . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: just the look like , the button part i 'll explain . industrial designer: yeah . uh so this is our what uh we have made . this is a model of the remote control which we are going to build . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh this is us in a snail shape so uh it it is attractive marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and it 's it 's blue in colour uh bright and uh it has yellow buttons and all the different colour buttons marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so it is a uh uh a looks-wise it is beautiful . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh and also compact in shape . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh um and also i it it will be easily fit into into the hands and you can access all the buttons easily . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . good . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: industrial designer: oops , sorry . marketing: you used to have all the buttons user interface: industrial designer: um yeah and um uh the material which we are going to use for the case is uh plastic and uh w which which is s strong um uh and also uh for the um the material is plastic and uh for the buttons it is uh s soft rubber um and als marketing: oh that 's good , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: no , that 's nice and friendly . industrial designer: yeah because uh uh you 'll be touching the buttons more so it is soft when you touch it . marketing: mm-hmm . mm . project manager: mm-hmm , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then um uh for the for the led , for the light emitting diode it is a fluorescent green marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and it 's a a it is a bulb like an ordinary infrared . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and and the button button 's part uh will be explained by f francina . user interface: okay . marketing: okay . user interface: now the um we decided upon including certain features on our remote . now these features includes the s um signal emitting uh signal it 's the led or l_e_d_ the infrared . project manager: mm-hmm , marketing: yeah , okay , mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: now uh we have included the switch on and off button . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: now we have included another feature that is the mute button marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: on the side of the model . then we have included one to nine buttons marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: for controlling the programmes the different channels . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we have also included two buttons for increasing or decreasing the volume . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and we have also included two buttons for scrolling up and scrolling down the programme channels . now our our model also contains a button which is called as the menu button . marketing: mm . project manager: what kind of button ? user interface: menu button . project manager: menu ? uh menu th menu , uh one one . user interface: yes , menu marketing: menu button . user interface: at the centre marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we have included a button which is fluorescent green colour and this is the menu button which will control the colour , sharpness , brightness marketing: mm-hmm . of the screen . mm , mm-hmm . user interface: of this uh picture . we have also included a button which is called as the swapping button . now this is uh a special , special feature which we have included . now this button is an elongated shaped button and this is slightly flexible so if it is turned towards the right it will take to the previous channel , if it is turned towards the right it will take to the next channel . it will take the user to the previous and the next channel so this is a swapping button . marketing: the next channel in the numeric pattern , or user interface: no , swapping is if if example you 're you 're watching the second channel and then you go to the tenth channel and if you want to go back to the second channel you can swap , this button . marketing: yeah , mm-hmm . mm . user interface: yes . marketing: okay , okay . user interface: and at the end , it this remote has inbuilt voice recogniser which c which will recognise the user 's voice and then it 'll act accordingly . project manager: okay . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: so this is our proposed model . marketing: okay . user interface: now the marketing expert has to marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: tell , yeah . user interface: give her suggestion whether it 'll be sellable or it 'll be cost effective . industrial designer: marketing: okay , well um what what i really like a lot about it is that you can reach the whole thing with one thumb , user interface: yes , yes . marketing: that you can really hold it in one h you do n't need two hands industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and it 's easily reachable even for somebody with a small hand , yeah ? project manager: yes the buttons are all raised , right ? marketing: the buttons are all raised project manager: are raised , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: and if you hold it in the centre of your hand you can even reach it over here so you do n't have to turn it around , turn it upside down , move it up , up and down , project manager: right . or have two hands to operate it , yeah . marketing: i really like that . user interface: mm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: you really did a good job on that , my little designers . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um and um i like the idea that the on-off button is in a really prominent place . that 's that 's a really good good thing . project manager: yes , and it sort of sticks up so that you really marketing: yeah , that 's great . project manager: you do n't have to g first go like oh yeah here it 's on and yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: abs okay . marketing: the colour 's very attractive . um the um these buttons uh around here are the mute user interface: no , these the front buttons which are here , are the mute buttons . marketing: and these mm-hmm on both sides they 're mute ? user interface: yes , yes . marketing: so you can push either one ? user interface: yes . marketing: okay . project manager: so if you 're left-handed or right-handed it does n't matter . marketing: and this brings the menu up on the screen ? user interface: pardon me ? this is the menu yes , yes . marketing: this brings the menu up on the screen and the orange ones are user interface: a the the these these two are th to increase or decrease the volumes , marketing: okay . user interface: and these two are to uh scroll the programme channels . marketing: f f okay . user interface: scroll up or scroll down the channels . marketing: right , very good . uh it looks mm looks like something i can sell . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: okay and now i 'm supposed to project manager: well , i have one question marketing: yeah . project manager: uh will there be anything written on the buttons , like that people know , or they have to learn that from a piece of paper which button does what ? user interface: yes , it will have uh these buttons will have the numbers and all the rest of the buttons will have symbols . industrial designer: ah . yeah , definitely . project manager: will have symbols so that that that the user really knows you know and does n't have to first learn it user interface: yes , which can be easily recognised . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: good point because we need the symbols 'cause we 're going into an international market we ca n't have anything that 's language dependent . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah of course , and also user interface: yes . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: yeah . but anyway it would ha i i i it has to have some kind of of symbols , text or something so that people kn industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah we can text . marketing: symbols on it . mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . industrial designer: text that we can have on the case itself , project manager: that 's right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: we can it will be printed on the case and symbols as well as the buttons . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , yeah just wanted make sure of that mm-hmm . user interface: and and one more feature is we we have a holder for this remote which is an oyster shape . marketing: mm , 'kay , mm . mm-hmm . user interface: a shell shape . marketing: for the snail , yeah , mm-hmm , project manager: right , mm-hmm . user interface: yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah . so it is marketing: we have the snail shell . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yes , snail shell . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: he goes right back into his shell . industrial designer: yeah shell . project manager: right . user interface: yes . marketing: well you know i think we could do something really funny with this too because the snail is known to be slow industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and we could have some sort of little comic effect on our marketing about how this is a rapid snail or something like that user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm . user interface: y yes industrial designer: yeah , of course , yeah . marketing: you know that would , that would really work . project manager: now what , what are our special features for the marketing ? marketing: so project manager: that 's really the voice recognition that 's really unusual marketing: i think voice recognition is our big selling point industrial designer: mm . mm-hmm . marketing: 'cause nobody else seems to have that in in this price range . industrial designer: mm . project manager: and then , and then the other thing would basically be sh shape or practicality of use . marketing: yep project manager: you know . marketing: uh well i think that everybody 's gon na say their remote control is practical . i think we have to , we have to dwell on on on the appearance . project manager: colours . mm-hmm . marketing: we 're really gon na have the be the project manager: cutest . marketing: cutest remote control on the block . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm . marketing: so i think we have to play with the image , play with the snail image um play with the visual and then the voice recognition . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: i think those are the two things to push . the look and the voice recognition . they 're gon na be our two selling points . project manager: okay , now uh having said that marketing: i 'm supposed to make a little presentation , are n't i ? project manager: no , now this was our evaluation criteria which we uh just have done . marketing: okay . project manager: now we 're gon na talk about financing . marketing: ah , but in my instructions i think it said i was supposed to go to the board and do something . project manager: well , there is a production evaluation . marketing: no ? project manager: is that you ? marketing: yeah , that 's me . project manager: but that 's after the financing . marketing: oh , okay . project manager: see ? fi see ? marketing: sorry , sorry . mm-mm . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: um . okay , we had looks and voice recognition . okay now on the financing we bring up the mm there it is . okay uh energy source we say that 's battery , right ? industrial designer: mm . marketing: that 's right . project manager: okay , now . so we i guess we use one . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: what ? t cell or chart you are trying to change is protected . well , that 's nice . she told me i could just ch change it here and then it would it does n't work . hmm . marketing: can you just fill it in in the yellow boxes ? or project manager: oh , okay yeah , okay , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: let 's see . okay , one , okay . user interface: yes . project manager: oh go away . um kinetic source so that 's in the energy source that 's all we need . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: uh electronics , simple chip on print ? is that 's what we 're using ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: one of those ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: come on . okay , one . uh regular chip on print . no . that 's all we need , the one industrial designer: no . yeah . project manager: case , uncurved flat , single curved , double curved . marketing: well . industrial designer: this is a user interface: single curve ? mm . marketing: i guess it 's double curved . project manager: double curved ? one of those ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: case materi s supplements . plastic we said , right ? user interface: plastic . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh wood , rubber ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: rubber , because we 're gon na have the soft buttons . project manager: uh but , yes but industrial designer: i think uh that is uh f for rubbers that is uh yeah case material . project manager: that 's just for the case material , user interface: is this for the case ? yes . project manager: so special colours though , we having that , marketing: oh okay , the mm-hmm , mm ' kay . project manager: right ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then we have to interface push buttons . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: scroll wheel , no . integrated scroll wheel , l_c_ display ? user interface: no . marketing: no , project manager: button . marketing: 'cause we did n't put the clock in it after all , right ? project manager: no . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh , button supplement special colour ? user interface: speci yes project manager: special form ? user interface: yes d we do have special form . marketing: yes . project manager: and special material , rubber , wood , yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . total seven point six whatever that means . industrial designer: uh , i think that 's the price . project manager: that 's the price . user interface: one two three four five six seven eight nine project manager: mm ? industrial designer: maybe it is it just n project manager: eight , eight point two . that 's user interface: nine points , project manager: hmm ? user interface: okay , yes . project manager: eight point two , right ? so , we looks like we are well within budget . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . i guess i should save this i suppose , huh ? marketing: yeah . project manager: oops . uh-huh huh huh . user interface: on the desktop . project manager: i just tried that . my documents , computer . industrial designer: ami . project manager: my compu ah oh here it is , yes . industrial designer: ami should for project manager: okay , fine . save . okay good , so that 's the good news . we gon na be popular . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: project manager: um . so that uh i think financing was pretty simple . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: now we would like to have a presentation by the marketing expert on production evaluation . marketing: okay , i 'll take my file down so you can bring it up . 'kay should be able to get it now . 'kay , why do n't you move just to the next slide right away . project manager: you wan na go to the next slide ? marketing: yeah right away . project manager: okay . marketing: okay , well uh obviously my method for uh s m the marketing of this thing is first to ask the big question , will it sell ? and i think we should show this prototype to people from various age and socio-economic groups and see about any fine tuning that maybe little things we have n't thought of . user interface: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: we ca n't accept every suggestion of course , but maybe we just need to get a few . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and show the the prototype to consumer research groups , we do n't s want somebody to suddenly come to us and tell us that this button is toxic and you know some child will swallow it and then we wo n't sell any . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm . marketing: so we have to get some input from those people . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and then after that we just have to go with our best intuition and you know we like it , we think it 's good , we 're gon na get behind it and sell it . um , next slide please . okay , now the things that i was thinking and th my wish list has really been realised in this prototype . i wanted the shape to be biomorphic , i did n't want anything with angles and all square , i wanted it to be comfy and roundy so we we 've got that . the size is small , the colour 's bright and warm which is what we wanted . we wanted the feel to be as soft as possible , we 'll have the soft buttons industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and the way this is shaped , even though it 's gon na be hard plastic , it feels good in your hand so that 's nice . and functionality i put last on my list because people are n't going to use it before they buy it . industrial designer: marketing: so paradoxically the other features , in other words , the look , the feel um and the shape , that 's what people are gon na get in the store . user interface: fee selling . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: they do n't have a television in the store , they ca n't play with it . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um so they 'll be our main selling points . so um th those have been fulfilled by your prototype and go ahead to the next slide please . okay , so um the shape um i think is a a one . that 's really , really excellent shape . the size is small um and th these points are in the importance for the , for the marketing , these are n't i in how i feel . i think that it 's i think that it 's plenty small enough to sell but i think we 're sort of right the scale is one to seven . i think we 're sort of right in the middle as far as c other competitors . user interface: okay . marketing: and our colour i think is great . the colours are bright and warm and we really do great job there . and given um the constraints that we had i think we got it as soft as possible . and then functionality um i think you did a really good job on functionality , obviously we could have ad added different functions but then we 'd disturb something else so i would say that we got to a five out of seven on on functionality . user interface: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so i think that basically we 've got a great product and we can get off and running with it . project manager: um i just realised one thing . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: in the financing there was no room for our voice recogniser . marketing: yes . user interface: yes . marketing: ah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i do n't know how we can evaluate that or how we can include that , too . marketing: well , um we had what , eight eight euros twenty as our cost ? project manager: eight , eight twenty , yes . industrial designer: eight twenty so marketing: and so we 've got we 've still got four euros to go to spend . industrial designer: we have um four euros , yeah project manager: i mean maximum we have another four point three euros i mean four thirty . marketing: mm-hmm . well um that 's project manager: but i mean we have no way of presenting that to management as you know as a f finished , as a finished product and saying okay with the voice recogniser that costs so much . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so um we just have to beware of that . i mean and know whether the four thirty will really cover that . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: well as we know in today 's technic technological world you can do just about anything at any price , the the the problem is quality . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so we 're just gon na have to settle for whatever quality that will buy us . industrial designer: yeah , user interface: yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and um it may not be the greatest quality but it may sell anyway . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , still . marketing: as we 've seen with so many of these kinds of products . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i 'm sorry to interrupt then but i just uh recog i just remembered that there was no that that was not um included uh that there was no room for any special features , okay ? industrial designer: included , yeah . hmm , user interface: yeah mm . industrial designer: hmm project manager: so to beware of that . you wan na go to this next slide , marketing expert ? marketing: uh , well i is n't this my last slide ? project manager: i dunno . marketing: maybe . project manager: yes it is . mm-hmm . marketing: go ahead . i think that was my last slide , yeah . um . mm okay . and i 'm supposed to present this scale on the whiteboard . um and we 're supposed to talk about those things as a team now , so if you put my last slide back up there . project manager: oh . marketing: i 'm sorry i 've um forgot to do that , um . project manager: why ? wh why you need that up ? marketing: hmm ? well because i ca n't remember what i put on there . okay . industrial designer: marketing: now i 'm supposed to see how long my leash is here . project manager: i think you can make it there . marketing: mm 'kay . you ready . so now we 're all supposed to say what we think . um okay so on shape i gave it a one . wait what would you ra uh one being good and seven being the worst . user interface: worse , okay . marketing: um what do you think the shape is ? user interface: one . marketing: one , okay , and be betsy ? project manager: yes i think uh shape is one . industrial designer: yeah , even my yeah , shape is one . marketing: okay , uh-huh one , okay . and how about on size ? on size project manager: you you gave it a four . marketing: i gave it a four , yeah , i feel it 's just average . project manager: um , i dunno . i think i would give it at least a two . marketing: okay . user interface: one . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , even i think it is one . it 's quite small . marketing: okay . okay user interface: marketing: you 're the designer , of course you wan na give it a one . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um and then how about how we doing on colour ? project manager: colour uh i marketing: colour , i gave it a one . project manager: one . marketing: i really like all those nice bright , warm colours . project manager: i i like the colours . one . user interface: one . yes . marketing: one . industrial designer: yeah , one . marketing: one , one , one , okay . and how about the feel ? taking into um consideration texture and comfort in the hand . project manager: uh , i think i would give it a two . marketing: okay , i gave it a three , two , user interface: i 'll give three . marketing: yeah ? three . industrial designer: uh maybe two , marketing: two , okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and the next is functionality where i i admit i was a little hard on our team here , but project manager: well it 's also you ca n't really try it out uh the other things you have have more is are more tangible so from that point of view marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: but um i 'll give it a three . marketing: okay . user interface: two . marketing: two , okay . industrial designer: uh three , mm-hmm . marketing: three ? okay . well , um . it looks like we 've got got ourselves a pretty good product . um the functionality 's the only place where maybe we have to think about m m maybe , heaven forbid , having another meeting . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but um otherwise i think we 're we 're ready to go to go with this product . anybody else have any other comments or any other things that we feel we should evaluate ? project manager: uh . here is what we looking at uh satisfaction on for example room for creativity . um . is there more room for creativity or are we absolutely happy ? user interface: we can always improve , yes . industrial designer: maybe we can yeah , include some more buttons and uh um user interface: yes , features . industrial designer: yeah features . we can make the buttons few buttons smaller . uh i think they are quite big , so i think i i mean we can just have small buttons and more buttons in that case . if we want to have more features than that . marketing: mm-hmm . well then again if we 're gon na um do the speech recognition thing we 're gon there gon na be some buttons that are gon na have to be added for that for the recording of the the speech . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , definitely . user interface: yes . voices . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so that that 's where we 're gon na have to do maybe we can eliminate one of the mute buttons , instead of having two mute buttons . industrial designer: yeah , definitely , yeah , two mu mute buttons . user interface: yes . yes . marketing: and um then maybe we can do something with the um the volume control . maybe we can put that all on one button . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: um and a couple of other th maybe comp uh consolidate some of the usage an and see what we can do with that . project manager: y um al always bearing in mind that right now we are of course well within the budget industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and maybe project manager: and that we still you know we probably ca n't , with this particular item , we probably ca n't just uh add a whole lot of more things . marketing: mm-hmm . no . project manager: uh um we need uh you know we need to leave space money-wise for the voice recogniser . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so th the question really is how do we feel with the project process ? uh , um are we happy with the creativity that has passed here or we 're not happy with the new product we created or that was created ? uh i think personally i think uh i 'm pretty happy . marketing: i 'm pretty happy with it too , yeah um , project manager: um an industrial designer: even i 'm happy . marketing: it 's something i think i can market . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and then the next question is are we happy with the leadership of this project ? uh marketing: i think you 've done a good job , miss leader . user interface: yes , yes you 've done a good job . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , definitely . project manager: and i think team work i think was very very good , i think we really industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah i d i do too i think we worked well together as a team , yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i think we are we happy with the means we used ? we used whiteboard , we did n't use digital p well digital pens i guess are these things . marketing: yeah maybe we could 've used the whiteboard a little bit more , yeah , user interface: whiteboard more , yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah , probably . marketing: we did n't use that enough . project manager: yes , we could . uh , it 's maybe not in the best position in the room um you know like sometimes it 's positioned so that it 's much better visible for everybody and i think from that point of view we sort of ignored it a little bit . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: and we used the slide because it was better positioned . project manager: yes , i think so , i think absolutely , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: no . marketing: mm i think that 's true mm-hmm . project manager: and fortunately we all had slides presentation which made it a little easier . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um did we new did we find new ideas ? user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think we did . industrial designer: yeah , many . marketing: i think we were we were very good , yeah , mm . project manager: i think we we did , uh in more than one respect and uh so i think we did very well here . marketing: mm-hmm . okay . project manager: are the costs within budget ? yes , yes . uh is the project evaluated ? yes . marketing: yes , yes . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um then celebration . marketing: celebration . user interface: cel celebration yes , yes . industrial designer: ah . marketing: today we have apple juice and after we sell m million of 'em we have champagne . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: so i i thank you all very much . um , i think this was very good and um industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think we did come up with a new product that 's uh feasible . feasible from the production point of view and feasible from a marketing point of view . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: so , thank you . marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: thank you . industrial designer: thank you very much . marketing: okay . watch i i have my cord behind you here . user interface: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: i always get it on here , but getting it off is industrial designer: do we do we have some time left ? uh you have user interface: they say it 's forty minutes . project manager: ah yes we have time later marketing: but we we were told we could end the final meeting at any time , whenever we felt we were finished . project manager: but we do n't user interface: okay . industrial designer: oh , alright . marketing: it 'll take me the rest of the time to get my microphone out from my necklace . oh , there we go .

industrial designer suggested that there could be more buttons and the buttons could be smaller . if having the speech recognition feature was feasible , buttons would be added for recording speech so marketing suggested that one of the mute buttons could be eliminated to make room and industrial designer and user interface agreed . marketing also suggested volume control could be put on one button .

what was the feedback for leadership , teamwork and means used during the pro evaluation ? </s> project manager: well hi everyone again . user interface: hello . industrial designer: hello . marketing: hello project manager: um like before we uh i have to redo the meetings from n th the minutes from the last meeting marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and so here we go . uh it was discussed in the last meeting uh which was opened by the presentation from the interface um designer that uh looks would be very important on this new remote user interface: designer . marketing: project manager: and um it is to send messages of course to the tv . it should have nine channel buttons , a next button , volume buttons , subtitle buttons , switch to control features , colour contrast , sharpness etcetera . it should have a memory switch , a mute button in case the telephone rings or something . uh speech recognition is one of her very f favourite personal uh features she would like see d d to be integrated in this um in this new remote . um . should be child friendly design with few buttons , colourful maybe with s star shaped or other shaped buttons . um she uh presented also an oversized remote which she guarantees nobody will ever be able to lose . user interface: project manager: um marketing: and she was challenged on that point project manager: that 's right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: project manager: but uh her very f personal favourite really she , she would very much like to see a speech recogniser integrated in this remote . the industrial designer um presented her uh thoughts on the issue . she would like a special case made out of plastic that is very strong , not using any harmful materials , should be recyclable and should be colourful . should have an integrated circuit board that 's highly sophisticated and temperature resistant . she would like to see a timer and or alarm facility integrated . uh technically this thing would also have a resistor and a capacitor , diode transistor , resonator , and if possible a rechargeable battery . uh and of course a circuit board . and how it would works , you press the button , the chip is morse morse code related relays the uh to the generat to the generator amplification and uh the circuit board is very inexpensive to build and so she thinks this is a great feature uh to to to consider . marketing: okay . project manager: she would like uh this whole thing should be push buttons with a simple chip uh scrolling method is more expensive and not that practical anymore . should be battery operated and of course she would have the special cases . the marketing expert uh who has to finally come up with to to to market this product has been watching the competition , has done some research on the internet and also has used h her personal observations to come up with the fact that such a remote sh should be small , easy to use and it should be eye catching . from her point of view of course one of the most important facts is that we should get to market before our competition does . to do that uh maybe one or two features should be developed on which we could dwell on or in other words on which our campaign could be built on . too many new features or too many points would only confuse matter . so we prefer to have one or two features that can be really uh driven home . um it should have a fruit and vegetable design and should have a soft feel . she feels that 's really what people want today . and the decision that we took last time was that uh the special feature we would like to see is a speech recogniser , the energy should be battery uh should be on a chip , should be trendy design , compact and strong , and should have buttons . and that concludes the presentation from the last minutes from the last meeting . now uh we are ready for the presentation of the prototype . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: just the look like , the button part i 'll explain . industrial designer: yeah . uh so this is our what uh we have made . this is a model of the remote control which we are going to build . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh this is us in a snail shape so uh it it is attractive marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and it 's it 's blue in colour uh bright and uh it has yellow buttons and all the different colour buttons marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so it is a uh uh a looks-wise it is beautiful . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh and also compact in shape . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh um and also i it it will be easily fit into into the hands and you can access all the buttons easily . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . good . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: industrial designer: oops , sorry . marketing: you used to have all the buttons user interface: industrial designer: um yeah and um uh the material which we are going to use for the case is uh plastic and uh w which which is s strong um uh and also uh for the um the material is plastic and uh for the buttons it is uh s soft rubber um and als marketing: oh that 's good , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: no , that 's nice and friendly . industrial designer: yeah because uh uh you 'll be touching the buttons more so it is soft when you touch it . marketing: mm-hmm . mm . project manager: mm-hmm , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then um uh for the for the led , for the light emitting diode it is a fluorescent green marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and it 's a a it is a bulb like an ordinary infrared . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and and the button button 's part uh will be explained by f francina . user interface: okay . marketing: okay . user interface: now the um we decided upon including certain features on our remote . now these features includes the s um signal emitting uh signal it 's the led or l_e_d_ the infrared . project manager: mm-hmm , marketing: yeah , okay , mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: now uh we have included the switch on and off button . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: now we have included another feature that is the mute button marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: on the side of the model . then we have included one to nine buttons marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: for controlling the programmes the different channels . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we have also included two buttons for increasing or decreasing the volume . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and we have also included two buttons for scrolling up and scrolling down the programme channels . now our our model also contains a button which is called as the menu button . marketing: mm . project manager: what kind of button ? user interface: menu button . project manager: menu ? uh menu th menu , uh one one . user interface: yes , menu marketing: menu button . user interface: at the centre marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we have included a button which is fluorescent green colour and this is the menu button which will control the colour , sharpness , brightness marketing: mm-hmm . of the screen . mm , mm-hmm . user interface: of this uh picture . we have also included a button which is called as the swapping button . now this is uh a special , special feature which we have included . now this button is an elongated shaped button and this is slightly flexible so if it is turned towards the right it will take to the previous channel , if it is turned towards the right it will take to the next channel . it will take the user to the previous and the next channel so this is a swapping button . marketing: the next channel in the numeric pattern , or user interface: no , swapping is if if example you 're you 're watching the second channel and then you go to the tenth channel and if you want to go back to the second channel you can swap , this button . marketing: yeah , mm-hmm . mm . user interface: yes . marketing: okay , okay . user interface: and at the end , it this remote has inbuilt voice recogniser which c which will recognise the user 's voice and then it 'll act accordingly . project manager: okay . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: so this is our proposed model . marketing: okay . user interface: now the marketing expert has to marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: tell , yeah . user interface: give her suggestion whether it 'll be sellable or it 'll be cost effective . industrial designer: marketing: okay , well um what what i really like a lot about it is that you can reach the whole thing with one thumb , user interface: yes , yes . marketing: that you can really hold it in one h you do n't need two hands industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and it 's easily reachable even for somebody with a small hand , yeah ? project manager: yes the buttons are all raised , right ? marketing: the buttons are all raised project manager: are raised , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: and if you hold it in the centre of your hand you can even reach it over here so you do n't have to turn it around , turn it upside down , move it up , up and down , project manager: right . or have two hands to operate it , yeah . marketing: i really like that . user interface: mm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: you really did a good job on that , my little designers . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um and um i like the idea that the on-off button is in a really prominent place . that 's that 's a really good good thing . project manager: yes , and it sort of sticks up so that you really marketing: yeah , that 's great . project manager: you do n't have to g first go like oh yeah here it 's on and yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: abs okay . marketing: the colour 's very attractive . um the um these buttons uh around here are the mute user interface: no , these the front buttons which are here , are the mute buttons . marketing: and these mm-hmm on both sides they 're mute ? user interface: yes , yes . marketing: so you can push either one ? user interface: yes . marketing: okay . project manager: so if you 're left-handed or right-handed it does n't matter . marketing: and this brings the menu up on the screen ? user interface: pardon me ? this is the menu yes , yes . marketing: this brings the menu up on the screen and the orange ones are user interface: a the the these these two are th to increase or decrease the volumes , marketing: okay . user interface: and these two are to uh scroll the programme channels . marketing: f f okay . user interface: scroll up or scroll down the channels . marketing: right , very good . uh it looks mm looks like something i can sell . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: okay and now i 'm supposed to project manager: well , i have one question marketing: yeah . project manager: uh will there be anything written on the buttons , like that people know , or they have to learn that from a piece of paper which button does what ? user interface: yes , it will have uh these buttons will have the numbers and all the rest of the buttons will have symbols . industrial designer: ah . yeah , definitely . project manager: will have symbols so that that that the user really knows you know and does n't have to first learn it user interface: yes , which can be easily recognised . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: good point because we need the symbols 'cause we 're going into an international market we ca n't have anything that 's language dependent . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah of course , and also user interface: yes . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: yeah . but anyway it would ha i i i it has to have some kind of of symbols , text or something so that people kn industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah we can text . marketing: symbols on it . mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . industrial designer: text that we can have on the case itself , project manager: that 's right . user interface: yes . industrial designer: we can it will be printed on the case and symbols as well as the buttons . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , yeah just wanted make sure of that mm-hmm . user interface: and and one more feature is we we have a holder for this remote which is an oyster shape . marketing: mm , 'kay , mm . mm-hmm . user interface: a shell shape . marketing: for the snail , yeah , mm-hmm , project manager: right , mm-hmm . user interface: yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah . so it is marketing: we have the snail shell . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yes , snail shell . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: he goes right back into his shell . industrial designer: yeah shell . project manager: right . user interface: yes . marketing: well you know i think we could do something really funny with this too because the snail is known to be slow industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and we could have some sort of little comic effect on our marketing about how this is a rapid snail or something like that user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm . user interface: y yes industrial designer: yeah , of course , yeah . marketing: you know that would , that would really work . project manager: now what , what are our special features for the marketing ? marketing: so project manager: that 's really the voice recognition that 's really unusual marketing: i think voice recognition is our big selling point industrial designer: mm . mm-hmm . marketing: 'cause nobody else seems to have that in in this price range . industrial designer: mm . project manager: and then , and then the other thing would basically be sh shape or practicality of use . marketing: yep project manager: you know . marketing: uh well i think that everybody 's gon na say their remote control is practical . i think we have to , we have to dwell on on on the appearance . project manager: colours . mm-hmm . marketing: we 're really gon na have the be the project manager: cutest . marketing: cutest remote control on the block . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm . marketing: so i think we have to play with the image , play with the snail image um play with the visual and then the voice recognition . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: i think those are the two things to push . the look and the voice recognition . they 're gon na be our two selling points . project manager: okay , now uh having said that marketing: i 'm supposed to make a little presentation , are n't i ? project manager: no , now this was our evaluation criteria which we uh just have done . marketing: okay . project manager: now we 're gon na talk about financing . marketing: ah , but in my instructions i think it said i was supposed to go to the board and do something . project manager: well , there is a production evaluation . marketing: no ? project manager: is that you ? marketing: yeah , that 's me . project manager: but that 's after the financing . marketing: oh , okay . project manager: see ? fi see ? marketing: sorry , sorry . mm-mm . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: um . okay , we had looks and voice recognition . okay now on the financing we bring up the mm there it is . okay uh energy source we say that 's battery , right ? industrial designer: mm . marketing: that 's right . project manager: okay , now . so we i guess we use one . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: what ? t cell or chart you are trying to change is protected . well , that 's nice . she told me i could just ch change it here and then it would it does n't work . hmm . marketing: can you just fill it in in the yellow boxes ? or project manager: oh , okay yeah , okay , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: let 's see . okay , one , okay . user interface: yes . project manager: oh go away . um kinetic source so that 's in the energy source that 's all we need . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: uh electronics , simple chip on print ? is that 's what we 're using ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: one of those ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: come on . okay , one . uh regular chip on print . no . that 's all we need , the one industrial designer: no . yeah . project manager: case , uncurved flat , single curved , double curved . marketing: well . industrial designer: this is a user interface: single curve ? mm . marketing: i guess it 's double curved . project manager: double curved ? one of those ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: case materi s supplements . plastic we said , right ? user interface: plastic . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh wood , rubber ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: rubber , because we 're gon na have the soft buttons . project manager: uh but , yes but industrial designer: i think uh that is uh f for rubbers that is uh yeah case material . project manager: that 's just for the case material , user interface: is this for the case ? yes . project manager: so special colours though , we having that , marketing: oh okay , the mm-hmm , mm ' kay . project manager: right ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then we have to interface push buttons . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: scroll wheel , no . integrated scroll wheel , l_c_ display ? user interface: no . marketing: no , project manager: button . marketing: 'cause we did n't put the clock in it after all , right ? project manager: no . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh , button supplement special colour ? user interface: speci yes project manager: special form ? user interface: yes d we do have special form . marketing: yes . project manager: and special material , rubber , wood , yes . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . total seven point six whatever that means . industrial designer: uh , i think that 's the price . project manager: that 's the price . user interface: one two three four five six seven eight nine project manager: mm ? industrial designer: maybe it is it just n project manager: eight , eight point two . that 's user interface: nine points , project manager: hmm ? user interface: okay , yes . project manager: eight point two , right ? so , we looks like we are well within budget . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . i guess i should save this i suppose , huh ? marketing: yeah . project manager: oops . uh-huh huh huh . user interface: on the desktop . project manager: i just tried that . my documents , computer . industrial designer: ami . project manager: my compu ah oh here it is , yes . industrial designer: ami should for project manager: okay , fine . save . okay good , so that 's the good news . we gon na be popular . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: project manager: um . so that uh i think financing was pretty simple . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: now we would like to have a presentation by the marketing expert on production evaluation . marketing: okay , i 'll take my file down so you can bring it up . 'kay should be able to get it now . 'kay , why do n't you move just to the next slide right away . project manager: you wan na go to the next slide ? marketing: yeah right away . project manager: okay . marketing: okay , well uh obviously my method for uh s m the marketing of this thing is first to ask the big question , will it sell ? and i think we should show this prototype to people from various age and socio-economic groups and see about any fine tuning that maybe little things we have n't thought of . user interface: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: we ca n't accept every suggestion of course , but maybe we just need to get a few . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and show the the prototype to consumer research groups , we do n't s want somebody to suddenly come to us and tell us that this button is toxic and you know some child will swallow it and then we wo n't sell any . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm . marketing: so we have to get some input from those people . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and then after that we just have to go with our best intuition and you know we like it , we think it 's good , we 're gon na get behind it and sell it . um , next slide please . okay , now the things that i was thinking and th my wish list has really been realised in this prototype . i wanted the shape to be biomorphic , i did n't want anything with angles and all square , i wanted it to be comfy and roundy so we we 've got that . the size is small , the colour 's bright and warm which is what we wanted . we wanted the feel to be as soft as possible , we 'll have the soft buttons industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: and the way this is shaped , even though it 's gon na be hard plastic , it feels good in your hand so that 's nice . and functionality i put last on my list because people are n't going to use it before they buy it . industrial designer: marketing: so paradoxically the other features , in other words , the look , the feel um and the shape , that 's what people are gon na get in the store . user interface: fee selling . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: they do n't have a television in the store , they ca n't play with it . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um so they 'll be our main selling points . so um th those have been fulfilled by your prototype and go ahead to the next slide please . okay , so um the shape um i think is a a one . that 's really , really excellent shape . the size is small um and th these points are in the importance for the , for the marketing , these are n't i in how i feel . i think that it 's i think that it 's plenty small enough to sell but i think we 're sort of right the scale is one to seven . i think we 're sort of right in the middle as far as c other competitors . user interface: okay . marketing: and our colour i think is great . the colours are bright and warm and we really do great job there . and given um the constraints that we had i think we got it as soft as possible . and then functionality um i think you did a really good job on functionality , obviously we could have ad added different functions but then we 'd disturb something else so i would say that we got to a five out of seven on on functionality . user interface: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so i think that basically we 've got a great product and we can get off and running with it . project manager: um i just realised one thing . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: in the financing there was no room for our voice recogniser . marketing: yes . user interface: yes . marketing: ah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i do n't know how we can evaluate that or how we can include that , too . marketing: well , um we had what , eight eight euros twenty as our cost ? project manager: eight , eight twenty , yes . industrial designer: eight twenty so marketing: and so we 've got we 've still got four euros to go to spend . industrial designer: we have um four euros , yeah project manager: i mean maximum we have another four point three euros i mean four thirty . marketing: mm-hmm . well um that 's project manager: but i mean we have no way of presenting that to management as you know as a f finished , as a finished product and saying okay with the voice recogniser that costs so much . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so um we just have to beware of that . i mean and know whether the four thirty will really cover that . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: well as we know in today 's technic technological world you can do just about anything at any price , the the the problem is quality . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so we 're just gon na have to settle for whatever quality that will buy us . industrial designer: yeah , user interface: yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and um it may not be the greatest quality but it may sell anyway . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , still . marketing: as we 've seen with so many of these kinds of products . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i 'm sorry to interrupt then but i just uh recog i just remembered that there was no that that was not um included uh that there was no room for any special features , okay ? industrial designer: included , yeah . hmm , user interface: yeah mm . industrial designer: hmm project manager: so to beware of that . you wan na go to this next slide , marketing expert ? marketing: uh , well i is n't this my last slide ? project manager: i dunno . marketing: maybe . project manager: yes it is . mm-hmm . marketing: go ahead . i think that was my last slide , yeah . um . mm okay . and i 'm supposed to present this scale on the whiteboard . um and we 're supposed to talk about those things as a team now , so if you put my last slide back up there . project manager: oh . marketing: i 'm sorry i 've um forgot to do that , um . project manager: why ? wh why you need that up ? marketing: hmm ? well because i ca n't remember what i put on there . okay . industrial designer: marketing: now i 'm supposed to see how long my leash is here . project manager: i think you can make it there . marketing: mm 'kay . you ready . so now we 're all supposed to say what we think . um okay so on shape i gave it a one . wait what would you ra uh one being good and seven being the worst . user interface: worse , okay . marketing: um what do you think the shape is ? user interface: one . marketing: one , okay , and be betsy ? project manager: yes i think uh shape is one . industrial designer: yeah , even my yeah , shape is one . marketing: okay , uh-huh one , okay . and how about on size ? on size project manager: you you gave it a four . marketing: i gave it a four , yeah , i feel it 's just average . project manager: um , i dunno . i think i would give it at least a two . marketing: okay . user interface: one . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , even i think it is one . it 's quite small . marketing: okay . okay user interface: marketing: you 're the designer , of course you wan na give it a one . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um and then how about how we doing on colour ? project manager: colour uh i marketing: colour , i gave it a one . project manager: one . marketing: i really like all those nice bright , warm colours . project manager: i i like the colours . one . user interface: one . yes . marketing: one . industrial designer: yeah , one . marketing: one , one , one , okay . and how about the feel ? taking into um consideration texture and comfort in the hand . project manager: uh , i think i would give it a two . marketing: okay , i gave it a three , two , user interface: i 'll give three . marketing: yeah ? three . industrial designer: uh maybe two , marketing: two , okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and the next is functionality where i i admit i was a little hard on our team here , but project manager: well it 's also you ca n't really try it out uh the other things you have have more is are more tangible so from that point of view marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: but um i 'll give it a three . marketing: okay . user interface: two . marketing: two , okay . industrial designer: uh three , mm-hmm . marketing: three ? okay . well , um . it looks like we 've got got ourselves a pretty good product . um the functionality 's the only place where maybe we have to think about m m maybe , heaven forbid , having another meeting . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but um otherwise i think we 're we 're ready to go to go with this product . anybody else have any other comments or any other things that we feel we should evaluate ? project manager: uh . here is what we looking at uh satisfaction on for example room for creativity . um . is there more room for creativity or are we absolutely happy ? user interface: we can always improve , yes . industrial designer: maybe we can yeah , include some more buttons and uh um user interface: yes , features . industrial designer: yeah features . we can make the buttons few buttons smaller . uh i think they are quite big , so i think i i mean we can just have small buttons and more buttons in that case . if we want to have more features than that . marketing: mm-hmm . well then again if we 're gon na um do the speech recognition thing we 're gon there gon na be some buttons that are gon na have to be added for that for the recording of the the speech . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , definitely . user interface: yes . voices . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so that that 's where we 're gon na have to do maybe we can eliminate one of the mute buttons , instead of having two mute buttons . industrial designer: yeah , definitely , yeah , two mu mute buttons . user interface: yes . yes . marketing: and um then maybe we can do something with the um the volume control . maybe we can put that all on one button . industrial designer: hmm . marketing: um and a couple of other th maybe comp uh consolidate some of the usage an and see what we can do with that . project manager: y um al always bearing in mind that right now we are of course well within the budget industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and maybe project manager: and that we still you know we probably ca n't , with this particular item , we probably ca n't just uh add a whole lot of more things . marketing: mm-hmm . no . project manager: uh um we need uh you know we need to leave space money-wise for the voice recogniser . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so th the question really is how do we feel with the project process ? uh , um are we happy with the creativity that has passed here or we 're not happy with the new product we created or that was created ? uh i think personally i think uh i 'm pretty happy . marketing: i 'm pretty happy with it too , yeah um , project manager: um an industrial designer: even i 'm happy . marketing: it 's something i think i can market . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and then the next question is are we happy with the leadership of this project ? uh marketing: i think you 've done a good job , miss leader . user interface: yes , yes you 've done a good job . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , definitely . project manager: and i think team work i think was very very good , i think we really industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah i d i do too i think we worked well together as a team , yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i think we are we happy with the means we used ? we used whiteboard , we did n't use digital p well digital pens i guess are these things . marketing: yeah maybe we could 've used the whiteboard a little bit more , yeah , user interface: whiteboard more , yes , yes . industrial designer: yeah , probably . marketing: we did n't use that enough . project manager: yes , we could . uh , it 's maybe not in the best position in the room um you know like sometimes it 's positioned so that it 's much better visible for everybody and i think from that point of view we sort of ignored it a little bit . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . marketing: and we used the slide because it was better positioned . project manager: yes , i think so , i think absolutely , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: no . marketing: mm i think that 's true mm-hmm . project manager: and fortunately we all had slides presentation which made it a little easier . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um did we new did we find new ideas ? user interface: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think we did . industrial designer: yeah , many . marketing: i think we were we were very good , yeah , mm . project manager: i think we we did , uh in more than one respect and uh so i think we did very well here . marketing: mm-hmm . okay . project manager: are the costs within budget ? yes , yes . uh is the project evaluated ? yes . marketing: yes , yes . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um then celebration . marketing: celebration . user interface: cel celebration yes , yes . industrial designer: ah . marketing: today we have apple juice and after we sell m million of 'em we have champagne . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: so i i thank you all very much . um , i think this was very good and um industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think we did come up with a new product that 's uh feasible . feasible from the production point of view and feasible from a marketing point of view . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: so , thank you . marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: thank you . industrial designer: thank you very much . marketing: okay . watch i i have my cord behind you here . user interface: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: i always get it on here , but getting it off is industrial designer: do we do we have some time left ? uh you have user interface: they say it 's forty minutes . project manager: ah yes we have time later marketing: but we we were told we could end the final meeting at any time , whenever we felt we were finished . project manager: but we do n't user interface: okay . industrial designer: oh , alright . marketing: it 'll take me the rest of the time to get my microphone out from my necklace . oh , there we go .

marketing , user interface and industrial designer thought project manager did a good job . project manager believed that the teamwork was great and this opinion was echoed by the other three team members . whiteboard was used during the meeting but digital pens were not and the team agreed that they could have used the whiteboard a bit more . the team mostly used the slide because it was better positioned .

summarize the meeting </s> professor b: are we on ? we 're on . ok . phd e: is it on ? phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah . ok , phd d: one , two u ok . phd a: why is it so cold in here ? professor b: so , uh , we have n't sent around the agenda . so , i uh , any agenda items anybody has , wants to talk about , what 's going on ? postdoc g: i c i could talk about the meeting . grad h: does everyone has everyone met don ? postdoc g: yeah . professor b: it 's on ? phd c: now , yeah . phd d: yeah . grad h: yeah ? ok . phd d: yeah . grad f: hello . professor b: ok , agenda item one , phd d: we went grad f: yeah . professor b: introduce don . ok , we did that . uh phd a: well , i had a just a quick question but i know there was discussion of it at a previous meeting that i missed , but just about the the wish list item of getting good quality close - talking mikes on every speaker . professor b: ok , so let 's let 's so let 's just do agenda building right now . ok , so let 's talk about that a bit . phd a: i mean , that was professor b: uh , @ @ tuss close talking mikes , better quality . ok , uh , we can talk about that . you were gon na starting to say something ? postdoc g: well , you you , um , already know about the meeting { comment } that 's coming up and i do n't know if if this is appropriate for this . i do n't know . i mean , maybe maybe it 's something we should handle outside of the meeting . professor b: no , no , that 's ok . phd e: what meeting ? professor b: we can so we can ta so n nist is nist folks are coming by next week postdoc g: ok . professor b: and so we can talk about that . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: i think phd e: who 's coming ? professor b: uh , uh , john fiscus postdoc g: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh , i think george doddington will be around as well . uh , ok , so we can talk about that . uh , i guess just hear about how things are going with , uh , uh , the transcriptions . that 's right . postdoc g: sure . mm - hmm . professor b: that would sorta be an obvious thing to discuss . um , an - anything else , uh , strike anybody ? phd a: uh , we started running recognition on one conversation but it 's the r is n't working yet . so , but if anyone has professor b: ok . phd e: wha phd a: uh , the main thing would be if anyone has , um , knowledge about ways to , uh , post - process the wave forms that would give us better recognition , that would be helpful to know about . professor b: um , grad h: dome yeah , it sounds like a topic of conversation . professor b: yeah , so , uh phd e: what about , uh , is there anything new with the speech , nonspeech stuff ? phd c: yeah , we 're working more on it but , it 's not finished . professor b: ok . alright , that seems like a a good collection of things . and we 'll undoubtedly think of other things . postdoc g: i had thought under my topic that i would mention the , uh , four items that i i , uh , put out for being on the agenda f on that meeting , which includes like the pre - segmentation and the and the developments in multitrans . professor b: oh , under the nist meeting . postdoc g: yeah , under the nist thing . professor b: ok . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: alright , why do n't we start off with this , u u i guess the order we brought them up seems fine . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: um , so , better quality close talking mikes . so the one issue was that the the , uh , lapel mike , uh , is n't as good as you would like . and so , uh , it it 'd be better if we had close talking mikes for everybody . right ? phd a: ri - um , professor b: is that is that basically the point ? phd a: yeah , the and actually in addition to that , that the the close talking mikes are worn in such a way as to best capture the signal . and the reason here is just that for the people doing work not on microphones but on sort of like dialogue and so forth , uh or and even on prosody , which don is gon na be working on soon , it adds this extra , you know , vari variable for each speaker to to deal with when the microphones are n't similar . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: right . phd a: so and i also talked to mari this morning and she also had a strong preference for doing that . and in fact she said that that 's useful for them to know in starting to collect their data too . professor b: mm - hmm . right , so one th grad h: well , so professor b: uh , well one thing i was gon na say was that , um , i we could get more , uh , of the head mounted microphones even beyond the number of radio channels we have because i think whether it 's radio or wire is probably second - order . and the main thing is having the microphone close to you , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: u although , not too close . grad h: right , so , uh , actually the way jose is wearing his is is c correct . phd d: yeah . is grad h: the good way . so you want to professor b: yeah . phd d: i it 's not cor it 's correct ? professor b: is . grad h: yeah , th that 's good . professor b: yes . phd d: yeah . grad h: so it 's towards the corner of your mouth so that breath sounds do n't get on it . phd d: yeah . yeah . grad h: and then just sort of about , uh , a thumb or a thumb and a half away from your from your mouth . phd d: yeah . yeah . uh , yeah . professor b: right . phd a: but we have more than one type of professor b: how am i d phd a: i mean , for instance , you 're phd c: yeah . grad h: and this one is n't very adjustable , phd d: yeah . grad h: so this about as good as i can get phd a: right . phd d: yeah . grad h: cuz it 's a fixed boom . phd d: is fixed . yeah . phd a: but if we could actually standardize , you know , the the microphones , uh , as much as possible that would be really helpful . professor b: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . grad h: mm - hmm . professor b: well , i mean it does n't hurt to have a few extra microphones around , phd d: yeah . professor b: so why do n't we just go out and and get an order of of if this microphone seems ok to people , uh , i 'd just get a half dozen of these things . grad h: well the onl the only problem with that is right now , um , some of the jimlets are n't working . the little the boxes under the table . professor b: yeah . grad h: and so , w uh , i 've only been able to find three jacks that are working . professor b: yeah . phd e: can we get these , wireless ? grad h: so professor b: no , but my point is phd a: but y we could just record these signals separately and time align them with the start of the meeting . professor b: r r right grad h: i i 'm not sure i 'm follow . say that again ? professor b: right now , we 've got , uh , two microphones in the room , that are not quote - unquote standard . so why do n't we replace those grad h: ok , just two . professor b: well , however many we can plug in . you know , if we can plug in three , let 's plug in three . grad h: ok . phd d: mm - yeah . professor b: also what we 've talked before about getting another , uh , radio , grad h: right . professor b: and so then that would be , you know , three more . grad h: right . ok . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: so , uh so we should go out to our full complement of whatever we can do , but have them all be the same mike . i think the original reason that it was done the other way was because , it w it was sort of an experimental thing and i do n't think anybody knew whether people would rather have more variety or or , uh , more uniformity , phd a: right . professor b: but @ @ { comment } but uh , sounds sounds fine . grad h: sounds like uniformity wins . phd d: right . phd a: well , for short term research it 's just there 's just so much effort that would have to be done up front n uh , professor b: yeah . grad h: well phd a: so yeah , uniformity would be great . grad h: yeah . phd e: is it because you you 're saying the for dialogue purposes , so that means that the transcribers are having trouble with those mikes ? is that what you mean ? phd a: well jane would know more about the transcribers . phd e: or ? postdoc g: and that 's true . i mean , i we did discuss this . uh , and and grad h: yep . couple times . postdoc g: a couple times , so , um , yeah , the transcribers notice and in fact there 're some where , um ugh well , i mean there 's it 's the double thing . it 's the equipment and also how it 's worn . phd a: right . postdoc g: and he 's always they always they just rave about how wonderful adam 's adam 's channel is . grad h: what can i say . postdoc g: and then , phd a: so does the recognizer . professor b: yeah . postdoc g: yeah . grad h: oh , really ? yeah , i 'm not surprised . i mean , `` baaah ! `` phd a: even if if you 're talking on someone else 's mike it 's still you w postdoc g: yeah , but i mean it 's not just that , it 's also you know you professor b: yeah . phd c: yeah . postdoc g: it 's also like n no breathing , no you know , it 's like it 's it 's um , professor b: yeah . postdoc g: it 's really it makes a big difference from the transcribers ' point of view grad h: yeah , it 's an advantage when you do n't breath . postdoc g: and also from the research s point of view . phd a: right . professor b: when we 're doing grad h: yeah , i think that the point of doing the close talking mike is to get a good quality signal . we 're not doing research on close talking mikes . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: yeah . grad h: so we might as well get it as uniform as we can . phd a: right . professor b: now , this is locking the barn door after the horse was stolen . we do have thirty hours , of of speech , which is done this way . grad h: yeah . phd a: that 's ok . professor b: but but , uh , yeah , for future ones we can get it a bit more uniform . phd a: great , great . grad h: so i think just do a field trip at some point . professor b: yeah , probably yeah , to the store we talked about and that grad h: yep . postdoc g: and there was some talk about , uh , maybe the h headphones that are uncomfortable for people , to grad h: yep . so , as as i said , we 'll do a field trip and see if we can get all of the same mike that 's more comfortable than than these things , which i think are horrible . postdoc g: ok . good . grad h: so . phd a: great , thank you very much . phd e: especially for people with big heads . phd a: it 's makes our job a lot easier . professor b: ok . ok . grad h: and , you know , we 're researchers , so we all have big heads . professor b: ok . phd e: yeah . professor b: yeah . uh , ok , second item was the , uh , nist visit , and what 's going on there . postdoc g: yeah . ok , so , um , uh , jonathan fiscus is coming on the second of february and i 've spoken with , uh , u u a lot of people here , not everyone . um , and , um , he expressed an interest in seeing the room and in , um , seeing a demonstration of the modified multitrans , which i 'll mention in a second , and also , um , he was interested in the pre - segmentation and then he 's also interested in the transcription conventions . grad h: mm - hmm . postdoc g: and , um so , um , it seems to me in terms of like , um , i i it wou you know , ok . so the room , it 's things like the audio and c and audi audio and acoustic acoustic properties of the room and how it how the recordings are done , and that kind of thing . and , um . ok , in terms of the multi - trans , well that that 's being modified by dave gelbart to , uh , handle multi - channel recording . grad h: oh , i should 've i was just thinking i should have invited him to this meeting . i forgot to do it . postdoc g: yeah , ok . grad h: so . phd c: yeah . postdoc g: yeah . well that 's ok , i mean we 'll grad h: sorry . postdoc g: yeah , and it 's t and it looks really great . he he has a prototype . i i , uh , @ @ { comment } did n't did n't see it , uh , yesterday but i 'm going to see it today . and , uh , that 's that will enable us to do nice um , tight time marking of the beginning and ending of overlapping segments . at present it 's not possible with limitations of of the , uh , original design of the software . and um . so , i do n't know . in terms of , like , pre - segmentation , that that continues to be , um , a terrific asset to the to the transcribers . do you i know that you 're al also supplementing it further . do you want to mention something about that c thilo , or ? phd c: um , yeah . what what i 'm doing right now is i 'm trying to include some information about which channel , uh , there 's some speech in . but that 's not working at the moment . i 'm just trying to do this by comparing energies , uh normalizing energies and comparing energies of the different channels . postdoc g: ok . phd c: and so to to give the transcribers some information in which channel there 's there 's speech in addition to to the thing we we did now which is just , uh , speech - nonspeech detection on the mixed file . so i 'm i 'm relying on on the segmentation of the mixed file postdoc g: this is good . mm - hmm . phd c: but i 'm i 'm trying to subdivide the speech portions into different portions if there is some activity in in different channels . postdoc g: excellent , so this 'd be like w e providing also speaker id potentially . phd c: but yeah . yeah . postdoc g: wonderful . wonderful . professor b: um , something i guess i did n't put in the list but , uh , on that , uh , same day later on in or maybe it 's no , actually it 's this week , uh , dave gelbart and i will be , uh , visiting with john canny who i you know , is a cs professor , postdoc g: oh . professor b: who 's interested in ar in array microphones . grad h: hcc . oh , he 's doing array mikes . professor b: yeah . and so we wan na see what commonality there is here . you know , maybe they 'd wan na stick an array mike here when we 're doing things phd e: that would be cool . grad h: yeah , that would be neat . professor b: or or maybe it 's it 's not a specific array microphone they want phd d: yeah . phd e: that would be really neat . professor b: but they might wan na just , uh , you know , you could imagine them taking the four signals from these these table mikes and trying to do something with them um , i also had a discussion so , w uh , we 'll be over over there talking with him , um , after class on friday . um , we 'll let you know what what goes with that . also had a completely unrelated thing . i had a , uh , discussion today with , uh , birger kollmeier who 's a , uh , a german , uh , scientist who 's got a fair sized group doing a range of things . it 's sort of auditory related , largely for hearing aids and so on . but but , uh , he does stuff with auditory models and he 's very interested in directionality , and location , and and , uh , head models and microphone things . and so , uh , he 's he and possibly a student , there w there 's , uh , a student of his who gave a talk here last year , uh , may come here , uh , in the fall for , uh , sort of a five month , uh , sabbatical . so he might be around . get him to give some talks and so on . but anyway , he might be interested in this stuff . phd d: mm - hmm . phd e: that that reminds me , i had a a thought of an interesting project that somebody could try to do with the data from here , either using , you know , the the mikes on the table or using signal energies from the head worn mikes , phd d: mm - hmm . phd e: and that is to try to construct a map of where people were sitting , professor b: right . phd d: uh - huh . phd e: uh , based on grad h: well dan dan had worked on that . dan ellis , phd d: uh - huh . phd e: oh , did he ? oh , that 's interesting . grad h: yeah . so that that 's the cross - correlation stuff , was was doing b beam - forming . phd d: yeah . phd e: and so you could plot out who was sitting next to who professor b: a little bit , phd e: and professor b: i mean , he did n't do a very extreme thing but just it was just sort of phd d: yeah , yeah . grad h: no , he did start on it . professor b: e e given that , the the the block of wood with the the the two mikes { comment } on either side , grad h: mm - hmm . professor b: if i 'm speaking , or if you 're speaking , or someone over there is speaking , it if you look at cross - correlation functions , you end up with a phd d: yeah . professor b: if if someone who was on the axis between the two is talking , then you you get a big peak there . and if if someone 's talking on on on , uh , one side or the other , it goes the other way . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: and then , uh , it it it even looks different if th t if the two two people on either side are talking than if one in the middle . it it actually looks somewhat different , so . phd e: hmm . well i was just thinking , you know , as i was sitting here next to thilo that um , when he 's talking , my mike probably picks it up better than your guys 's mikes . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd e: so if you just looked at grad h: oh , that 's another cl cue , phd d: yeah . phd e: yeah , { comment } looked at { comment } the energy on my mike and you could get an idea about who 's closest to who . grad h: that 's true . phd d: yeah . professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . professor b: right . phd d: yeah . phd e: and grad h: or who talks the loudest . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah , well you have to the appropriate normalizations are tricky , and and and are probably the key . grad h: yeah . phd c: yeah . phd a: you just search for adam 's voice on each individual microphone , you pretty much know where everybody 's sitting . phd c: yeah . professor b: yeah . we 've switched positions recently so you ca n't anyway . ok . so those are just a little couple of news items . postdoc g: can i ask one thing ? uh , so , um , jonathan fiscus expressed an interest in , uh , microphone arrays . professor b: yes . postdoc g: um , is there i mean b and i also want to say , his he ca n't stay all day . he needs to uh , leave for uh , from here to make a two forty - five flight grad h: oh , so just morning . postdoc g: from from oakland . professor b: right . postdoc g: so it makes the scheduling a little bit tight but do you think that , um that , uh , i john canny should be involved in this somehow or not . i have no idea . professor b: probably not but i i 'll i 'll i 'll know better after i see him this friday what what kind of level he wants to get involved . postdoc g: it 's premature . fine . good . professor b: uh , he might be excited to and it might be very appropriate for him to , uh , or he might have no interest whatsoever . i i just really do n't know . postdoc g: ok . grad h: is he involved in ach ! { comment } i 'm blanking on the name of the project . nist has has done a big meeting room instrumented meeting room with video and microphone arrays , and very elaborate software . is is he the one working on that ? professor b: well that 's what they 're starting up . grad h: ok . professor b: yeah . no , i mean , that 's what all this is about . they they have n't done it yet . they wanted to do it grad h: ok . i had read some papers that looked like they had already done some work . professor b: uh , well i think they 've instrumented a room but i do n't think they they have n't started recordings yet . they do n't have the t the transcription standards . they do n't have the phd e: are they going to do video as well ? grad h: hmm . professor b: yeah . i think . phd e: hmm . professor b: i think they are . grad h: oh , cuz what what i had read was , uh , they had a uh very large amount of software infrastructure for coordinating all this , both in terms of recording and also live room where you 're interacting the participants are interacting with the computer , and with the video , and lots of other stuff . professor b: well , i 'm i 'm i 'm not sure . grad h: so . professor b: all all i know is that they 've been talking to me about a project that they 're going to start up recording people meet in meetings . grad h: ok . well professor b: and , uh , it is related to ours . they were interested in ours . they wanted to get some uniformity with us , uh , about the transcriptions and so on . grad h: alright . professor b: and one one notable difference u u actually i ca n't remember whether they were going to routinely collect video or not , but one one , uh , difference from the audio side was that they are interested in using array mikes . so , um , i mean , i 'll just tell you the party line on that . the reason i did n't go for that here was because , uh , the focus , uh , both of my interest and of adam 's interest was uh , in impromptu situations . and we 're not recording a bunch of impromptu situations but that 's because it 's different to get data for research than to actually apply it . phd d: hmm . professor b: and so , uh , for scientific reasons we thought it was good to instrument this room as we wanted it . but the thing we ultimately wanted to aim at was a situation where you were talking with , uh , one or more other people i uh , in in an p impromptu way , where you did n't did n't actually know what the situation was going to be . and therefore it would not it 'd be highly unlikely that room would be outfitted with with some very carefully designed array of microphones . um , so it was only for that reason . it was just , you know , yet another piece of research and it seemed like we had enough troubles just phd e: so there 's no like portable array of mikes ? professor b: no . so there 's there 's uh , there 's a whole range of things there 's a whole array of things , that people do on this . phd d: hmm . professor b: so , um , the , uh the big arrays , uh , places , uh , like uh , rutgers , and brown , and other other places , uh , they have , uh , big arrays with , i do n't know , a hundred hundred mikes or something . grad h: xerox . professor b: and so there 's a wall of mikes . and you get really , really good beam - forming { comment } with that sort of thing . phd e: wow . professor b: and it 's and , um , in fact at one point we had a a proposal in with rutgers where we were gon na do some of the sort of per channel signal - processing and they were gon na do the multi - channel stuff , but it d it d we ended up not doing it . but phd e: i 've seen demonstrations of the microphone arrays . it 's amazing how how they can cut out noise . professor b: yeah , it 's r it 's really neat stuff . grad h: and then they have little ones too professor b: and then they had the little ones , yeah . grad h: but i mean but they do n't have our block of wood , right ? professor b: yeah , our block of wood is unique . phd d: yeah . professor b: but the but the no , there are these commercial things now you can buy that have four mikes or something phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and and , uh , um so , yeah , there 's there 's there 's a range of things that people do . phd e: huh . professor b: um , so if we connected up with somebody who was interested in doing that sort of thing that 's that 's a good thing to do . i mean , whenever i 've described this to other people who are interested on the with the acoustic side that 's invariably the question they ask . just like someone who is interested in the general dialogue thing will always ask `` um , are you recording video ? `` phd a: right , professor b: um , right ? phd a: right . professor b: and and the acoustic people will always say , `` well are you doing , uh , uh , array microphones ? `` so it 's it 's a good thing to do , but it does n't solve the problem of how do you solve things when there 's one mike or at best two mikes in in this imagined pda that we have . so maybe maybe we 'll do some more of it . postdoc g: well one thing i i mean , i do n't know . i mean , i know that having an array of i mean , i would imagine it would be more expensive to have a an array of microphones . but could n't you kind of approximate the natural sis situation by just shutting off uh , channels when you 're later on ? i mean , it seems like if the microphones do n't effect each other then could n't you just , you know , record them with an array and then just not use all the data ? grad h: it 's it 's just a lot of infrastructure that for our particular purpose we felt we did n't need to set up . postdoc g: i see . phd a: yeah . postdoc g: fine . professor b: yeah , if ninety - nine percent of what you 're doing is c is shutting off most of the mikes , then going through the postdoc g: ok . professor b: but if you get somebody who 's who who has that as a primary interest then that put then that drives it in that direction . grad h: that 's right , i mean if someone if someone came in and said we really want to do it , phd a: right . grad h: i mean , we do n't care . that would be fine , phd e: so to save that data you you have to have one channel recording per mike in the array ? grad h: buy more disk space . professor b: well , uh , at some level at some level . phd e: is that grad h: i usually do a mix . professor b: but then , you know , there 's it there 's phd e: what you save , i mean , if you 're going to do research with it . yeah professor b: there 's i i do n't know what they 're going to do and i do n't know how big their array is . obviously if you were gon na save all of those channels for later research you 'd use up a lot of space . phd e: yeah . professor b: and , th phd e: hmm . grad h: well their software infrastructure had a very elaborate design for plugging in filters , and mixers , and all sorts of processing . so that they can do stuff in real time and not save out each channel individually . professor b: yeah . yeah . phd e: mmm . grad h: so it was , uh phd d: yeah . professor b: but i mean , uh , for optimum flexibility later you 'd want to save each channel . but i think in practical situations you would have some engine of some sort doing some processing to reduce this to some to the equivalent of a single microphone that was very directional . phd e: uh , oh , ok , i see . professor b: right ? phd a: i mean , it seems professor b: so phd e: sort of saving the result of the beam - forming . phd d: yeah . phd a: it seems to me that there 's you know , there are good political reasons for for doing this , just getting the data , because there 's a number of sites like right now sri is probably gon na invest a lot of internal funding into recording meetings also , which is good , um , but they 'll be recording with video and they 'll be you know , it 'd be nice if we can have at least , uh , make use of the data that we 're recording as we go since it 's sort of this is the first site that has really collected these really impromptu meetings , um , and just have this other information available . so , if we can get the investment in just for the infra infrastructure and then , i do n't know , save it out or have whoever 's interested save that data out , transfer it there , it 'd be g it 'd be good to have have the recording . i think . grad h: you mean to to actually get a microphone array and do that ? phd a: well , if even if we 're not grad h: and video and phd a: i 'm not sure about video . that 's sort of an video has a little different nature since right n right now we 're all being recorded but we 're not being taped . um , but it definitely in the case of microphone arrays , since if there was a community interested in this , then grad h: well , but i think we need a researcher here who 's interested in it . to push it along . professor b: see the problem is it it took , uh , uh , it took at least six months for dan to get together the hardware and the software , and debug stuff in in the microphones , and in the boxes . and it was a really big deal . and so i think we could get a microphone array in here pretty easily and , uh , have it mixed to to one channel of some sort . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: but , e i think for i mean , how we 're gon na decide for for maximum flexibility later you really do n't want to end up with just one channel that 's pointed in the direction of the the the p the person with the maximum energy or something like that . i mean , you you want actually to you want actually to have multiple channels being recorded so that you can and to do that , it we 're going to end up greatly increasing the disk space that we use up , we also only have boards that will take up to sixteen channels and in this meeting , we 've got eight people and and six mikes . and there we 're already using fourteen . grad h: and we actually only have fifteen . professor b: e grad h: one of them 's phd d: yeah . grad h: details . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . grad h: but fifteen , not sixteen . phd a: well if there 's a way to say time to sort of solve each of these f those professor b: yeah . phd a: so suppose you can get an array in because there 's some person at berkeley who 's interested and has some equipment , uh , and suppose we can as we save it we can , you know , transfer it off to some other place that that holds this this data , who 's interested , and even if icsi it itself is n't . um , and it it seems like as long as we can time align the beginning , do we need to mix it with the rest ? i do n't know . you know ? the professor b: yeah . so i think you 'd need a separate a separate set up phd a: so yeah . professor b: and the assumption that you could time align the two . phd a: i mean it 's just it 's worth considering as sort of grad h: and y it 'd certainly gets skew . phd a: once you make the up front investment { comment } and can sort of save it out each time , and and not have to worry about the disk space factor , then it mi it might be worth having the data . professor b: i 'm not so much worried about disk space actually . i mentioned that , b as a practical matter , grad h: just professor b: but the real issue is that , uh , there is no way to do a recording extended to what we have now with low skew . so you would have a t completely separate set up , phd a: right . professor b: which would mean that the sampling times and so forth would be all over the place compared to this . so it would depend on the level of pr processing you were doing later , but if you 're d i the kind of person who 's doing array processing you actually care about funny little times . and and so you actually wou would want to have a completely different set up than we have , phd a: i see . professor b: one that would go up to thirty - two channels or something . phd a: mmm . professor b: so basically grad h: or a hundred thirty - two . professor b: or a hun yeah . so , i 'm kinda skeptical , but um i think that phd a: mmm . professor b: so , uh , i do n't think we can share the resource in that way . but what we could do is if there was someone else who 's interested they could have a separate set up which they would n't be trying to synch with ours which might be useful for for them . phd a: right , i mean at least they 'd have the data and the transcripts , professor b: and then we can offer up the room , phd a: and right . professor b: yeah , we can o offer the meetings , and the physical space , and and yeah , the transcripts , and so on . phd a: ok . right , i mean , just it 'd be nice if we have more information on the same data . you know , and professor b: yeah . phd a: but it 's if it 's impossible or if it 's a lot of effort then you have to just balance the two , professor b: well i thi phd a: so professor b: yeah , the thing will be , u u in in again , in talking to these other people to see what you know , what what we can do . phd a: right . professor b: uh , we 'll see . phd e: is there an interest in getting video recordings for these meetings ? professor b: right , so we have we phd e: i mean grad h: yes , absolutely . but it 's exactly the same problem , that you have an infrastructure problem , you have a problem with people not wanting to be video taped , and you have the problem that no one who 's currently involved in the project is really hot to do it . phd e: hmm . so there 's not enough interest to overcome all of grad h: mm - hmm . phd a: right . internally , but i know there is interest from other places that are interested in looking at meeting data and having the video . so it 's just postdoc g: yeah , w although i m i i have to u u mention the human subjects problems , that i increase with video . phd a: right , that 's true . professor b: yeah , so it 's , uh , people people getting shy about it . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: there 's this human subjects problem . there 's the fact that then um , if i i i 've heard comments about this before , `` why do n't you just put on a video camera ? `` but you know , it 's sort of like saying , `` uh , well we 're primarily interested in in some dialogue things , uh , but , uh , why do n't we just throw a microphone out there . `` i mean , the thing is , once you actually have serious interest in any of these things then you actually have to put a lot of effort in . phd e: mmm . professor b: and , uh , you really want to do it right . grad h: i know . yep . professor b: so i think nist or ldc , or somebody like that i think is much better shape to do all that . we there will be other meeting recordings . we wo n't be the only place doing meeting recordings . we are doing what we 're doing . postdoc g: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh , hopefully it 'll be useful . postdoc g: i it it occurred to me , has don signed a human subject 's form ? grad h: oh ! probably not . postdoc g: a permission form ? grad h: has don have you s did you si i thought you did actually . grad f: i was yeah , i was i was here i was here before once . grad h: did n't you read a digit string ? phd e: you were here at a meeting before . postdoc g: you were here at a meeting before . phd e: yeah . grad f: so . grad h: yeah , and you and you signed a form . grad f: oh , i think so . postdoc g: did you sign a form ? grad f: did i ? i do n't know . grad h: i 'm pretty sure . well i 'll i 'll get another one before the end of the meeting . postdoc g: ok . professor b: yeah . grad h: thank you . grad f: yeah . postdoc g: ok . professor b: yeah . postdoc g: you do n't you do n't have to leave for it . professor b: yeah , we we postdoc g: but i just grad f: can i verbally consent ? postdoc g: you know . grad h: well i ca n't , i 'm wired in . professor b: we we we we do n't , uh phd a: yeah . you 're on recor you 're being recorded postdoc g: o grad f: yeah . phd a: and professor b: we do n't we do n't perform electro - shock during these meetings , grad f: i do n't care . you can do whatever you want with it . professor b: and phd e: usually . grad f: that 's fine . professor b: yeah . ok . uh , transcriptions . postdoc g: transcriptions , ok . um , i thought about there are maybe three aspects of this . so first of all , um , i 've got eight transcribers . uh , seven of them are linguists . one of them is a graduate student in psychology . um , each i gave each of them , uh , their own data set . two of them have already finished the data sets . and the meetings run , you know , let 's say an hour . sometimes as man much as an hour and a half . phd e: how big is the data set ? postdoc g: oh , it 's what i mean is one meeting . phd e: ah , ok . postdoc g: each each person got their own meeting . i did n't want to have any conflicts of , you know , of of when to stop transcribing this one or so i wanted to keep it clear whose data were whose , and and and so phd e: uh - huh . postdoc g: and , uh , meetings , you know , i think that they 're they go as long as a almost two hours in some in some cases . so , you know , that means you know , if we 've got two already finished and they 're working on uh , right now all eight of them have differe uh , uh , additional data sets . that means potentially as many as ten might be finished by the end of the month . phd e: wow . postdoc g: hope so . but the pre - segmentation really helps a huge amount . phd c: ok . postdoc g: and , uh , also dan ellis 's innovation of the , uh the multi - channel to here really helped a r a lot in terms of clearing clearing up h hearings that involve overlaps . but , um , just out of curiosity i asked one of them how long it was taking her , one of these two who has already finished her data set . she said it takes about , uh , sixty minutes transcription for every five minutes of real time . so it 's about twelve to one , which is what we were thinking . grad h: or yep . postdoc g: it 's well in the range . grad h: it 's pretty good . postdoc g: ok . uh , these still , when they 're finished , um , that means that they 're finished with their pass through . they still need to be edited and all but but it 's word level , speaker change , the things that were mentioned . ok , now i wanted to mention the , um , teleconference i had with , uh , jonathan fiscus . we spoke for an hour and a half and , um , had an awful lot of things in common . grad h: hmm . postdoc g: he , um , um , he in indicated to me that they 've that he 's been , uh , looking , uh , uh , spending a lot of time with i 'm not quite sure the connection , but spending a lot of time with the atlas system . and i guess that i mean , i i need to read up on that . and there 's a web site that has lots of papers . but it looks to me like that 's the name that has developed for the system that bird and liberman developed { comment } for the annotated graphs approach . grad h: mm - hmm . postdoc g: so what he wants me to do and what we what we will do and uh , is to provide them with the u already transcribed meeting for him to be able to experiment with in this atlas system . and they do have some sort of software , at least that 's my impression , related to atlas and that he wants to experiment with taking our data and putting them in that format , and see how that works out . i i i explained to him in in detail the , uh , conventions that we 're using here in this in this word level transcript . and , um , you know , i i explained , you know , the reasons that that we were not coding more elaborately and and the focus on reliability . he expressed a lot of interest in reliability . it 's like he 's he 's really up on these things . he 's he 's very um , independently he asked , `` well what about reliability ? `` so , he 's interested in the consistency of the encoding and that sort of thing . ok , um phd a: sorry , can you explain what the atlas i 'm not familiar with this atlas system . postdoc g: well , you know , at this point i think uh , well adam 's read more in more detail than i have on this . i need to acquaint myself more with it . but , um , there there is a way of viewing uh , whenever you have coding categories , um , and you 're dealing with uh , a taxonomy , then you can have branches that that have alternative , uh , choices that you could use for each each of them . and it just ends up looking like a graphical representation . grad h: is is is atlas the his annotated transcription graph stuff ? i do n't remember the acronym . the the one the what i think you 're referring to , they they have this concept of an an annotated transcription graph representation . phd a: oh . oh . postdoc g: yeah . grad h: and that 's basically what i based the format that i did i based it on their work almost directly , in combination with the tei stuff . and so it 's very , very similar . and so it 's it 's a data representation and a set of tools for manipulating transcription graphs of various types . phd e: is this the project that 's sort of , uh , between , uh , nist and and , uh , a couple of other places ? postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd e: the the postdoc g: including ldc . phd e: yeah , postdoc g: i think so . grad h: yep . phd e: y right , ok . postdoc g: mm - hmm . then there 's their web site that has lots of papers . and i looked through them and they mainly had to do with this , um , this , uh , tree structure , uh , annotated tree diagram thing . phd a: mmm . postdoc g: so , um , um and , you know , in terms of like the conventions that i 'm a that i 've adopted , it there there 's no conflict at all . grad h: right . postdoc g: and he was , you know , very interested . and , `` oh , and how 'd you handle this ? `` and i said , `` well , you know , this way `` and and and we had a really nice conversation . um , ok , now i also wanted to say in a different a different direction is , brian kingsbury . so , um , i corresponded briefly with him . i , uh , c i he still has an account here . i told him he could ssh on and use multi - trans , and have a look at the already done , uh , transcription . and he and he did . and what he said was that , um , what they 'll be providing is will not be as fine grained in terms of the time information . and , um , that 's , uh you know , i need to get back to him and and , uh , you know , explore that a little bit more and see what they 'll be giving us in specific , phd a: hmm . phd e: the p the people postdoc g: but i just have n't had time yet . phd e: the the folks that they 're , uh , subcontracting out the transcription to , are they like court reporters postdoc g: sorry , what ? yes . phd e: or postdoc g: apparently well , i get the sense they 're kind of like that . like it 's like a pool of of somewhat uh , secretarial i do n't think that they 're court reporters . i do n't think they have the special keyboards and that and that type of training . phd e: mm - hmm . postdoc g: i i get the sense they 're more secretarial . and that , um , uh , what they 're doing is giving them phd e: hmm . like medical transcriptionist type people grad h: nu - it 's mostly it 's for their speech recognition products , phd e: but are n't they 're postdoc g: yep . grad h: that they 've hired these people to do . phd e: oh , so they 're hiring them , they 're coming . it 's not a service they send the tapes out to . grad h: well they they do send it out but my understanding is that that 's all this company does is transcriptions for ibm for their speech product . phd e: ah ! oh . ok . i gotcha . grad h: so most of it 's viavoice , people reading their training material for that . phd e: i see . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd e: i see . postdoc g: up to now it 's been monologues , uh , as far my understood . grad h: yep , exactly . postdoc g: and and what they 're doing is phd e: mm - hmm . grad h: yep . postdoc g: brian himself downloaded so so , um , adam sent them a cd and brian himself downloaded uh , cuz , you know , i mean , we wanted to have it so that they were in familiar f terms with what they wanted to do . he downloaded from the cd onto audio tapes . and apparently he did it one channel per audio tape . so each of these people is transcribing from one channel . grad h: right . phd e: oh . postdoc g: and then what he 's going to do is check it , a before they go be beyond the first one . check it and , you know , adjust it , and all that . phd e: so each person gets one of these channels grad h: right . professor b: so if they hear something off in the distance they do n't they just go phd e: ok . postdoc g: i i do n't know . grad h: well , but that 's ok , because , you know , you 'll do all them and then combine them . phd e: but there could be problems , right ? with that . postdoc g: i have t i , you know i phd c: yep . postdoc g: i think it would be difficult to do it that way . i really phd a: yeah . phd e: well if you 're tran if you got that channel right there postdoc g: d uh , in my case phd c: yeah . grad h: no , no . we 're talking about close talking , not the not the desktop . phd d: no , close talk . professor b: are you ? postdoc g: yes . well i th i think so . grad h: i sure hope so . it 'd be really foolish to do otherwise . postdoc g: yeah , i i would think that it would be kind of hard to come out with yeah . phd a: i i think it 's sort of hard just playing the you know , just having played the individual files . and i i mean , i know you . i know what your voice sounds like . i 'm sort of familiar with phd c: yeah . phd a: uh , it 's pretty hard to follow , especially grad h: one side . phd a: there are a lot of words that are so reduced phonetically that make sense when you know what the person was saying before . postdoc g: i agree . phd c: yeah . phd e: yeah , that 's phd a: uh , it sort of depends where you are in postdoc g: and especially since a lot of these phd d: yeah . grad h: but i mean we had this we 've had this discussion many times . postdoc g: yeah , we have . grad h: and the answer is we do n't actually know the answer because we have n't tried both ways . postdoc g: well , except i can say that my transcribers use the mixed signal mostly grad h: so . mm - hmm . phd a: mm - hmm . phd e: right . postdoc g: unless there 's a huge disparity in terms of the volume on on the mix . in which case , you know , they they would n't be able to catch anything except the prominent { comment } channel , grad h: right . phd c: yeah . postdoc g: then they 'll switch between . grad h: well i think that that might change if you wanted really fine time markings . postdoc g: but but really well , ok . grad h: so . professor b: but they 're not giving f really fine time markings . postdoc g: yeah , well phd a: actually , are th so are they giving any time markings ? grad h: right . phd a: in other words , if postdoc g: well , i have to ask him . phd a: yeah . postdoc g: and that 's that 's my email to him . that needs to be forthcoming . phd a: cuz ok . postdoc g: but but the , uh i did want to say that it 's hard to follow one channel of a conversation even if you know the people , and if you 're dealing furthermore with highly abstract network concepts you 've never heard of so , you know , one of these people was was transcribing the , uh , networks group talk and she said , `` i do n't really know what a lot of these abbreviations are , `` `` but i just put them in parentheses cuz that 's the that 's the convention and i just `` cuz you know , if you do n't know grad h: oh , i 'd be curious to to look at that . phd e: just out of curiosity , i mean grad h: they also all have h heavy accents . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . postdoc g: yeah . grad h: the networks group meetings are all phd e: given all of the effort that is going on here in transcribing why do we have i b m doing it ? why not just do it all ourselves ? professor b: um , it 's historical . i mean , uh , some point ago we thought that uh , it `` boy , we 'd really have to ramp up to do that `` , phd c: uh - huh . phd d: no , just professor b: you know , like we just did , and , um , here 's , uh , a a , uh , collaborating institution that 's volunteered to do it . phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: so , that was a contribution they could make . uh in terms of time , money , you know ? phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: and it still might be a good thing phd e: i 'm just wondering now phd a: actu yeah , mar - mari asked me the same question as sort of professor b: but phd e: well , i 'm i 'm wondering now if it 's grad h: well we can talk about more details later . phd a: um , you know , yeah , whether to professor b: yeah . yeah . yeah , so . phd e: hmm . professor b: we 'll see . i mean , i think , th you know , they they they 've proceeded along a bit . let 's see what comes out of it , and and , uh , you know , have some more discussions with them . postdoc g: mm - hmm . it 's very a real benefit having brian involved because of his knowledge of what the how the data need to be used and so what 's useful to have in the format . grad h: yeah . professor b: mm - hmm . yeah . grad h: so , um , liz , with with the sri recognizer , { comment } can it make use of some time marks ? phd a: ok , so this is a , um , grad h: i i guess i do n't know what that means . phd a: and actually i should say this is what don has b uh , he 's already been really helpful in , uh , chopping up these so so first of all you um , i mean , for the sri front - end , we really need to chop things up into pieces that are f not too huge . um , but second of all , uh in general because some of these channels , i 'd say , like , i do n't know , at least half of them probably { comment } on average are g are ha are have a lot of cross - ta sorry , some of the segments have a lot of cross - talk . um , it 's good to get sort of short segments if you 're gon na do recognition , especially forced alignment . so , uh , don has been taking a first stab actually using jane 's first the fir the meeting that jane transcribed which we did have some problems with , and thilo , uh , i think told me why this was , but that people were switching microphones around { comment } in the very beginning , so the sri re phd c: no , th yeah . no . they they were not switching them but what they were they were adjusting them , phd a: and they they were not phd c: so . grad f: mmm . grad h: adjusting . oh . phd a: yeah . phd c: and aft after a minute or so it 's it 's way better . phd a: so we have to sort of normalize { comment } the front - end and so forth , and have these small segments . phd c: so yep . phd a: so we 've taken that and chopped it into pieces based always on your your , um , cuts that you made on the mixed signal . and so that every every speaker has the same cuts . and if they have speech in it we run it through . and if they do n't have speech in it we do n't run it through . and we base that knowledge on the transcription . grad h: on just on the marks . right ? phd a: um , the problem is if we have no time marks , then for forced alignment we actually do n't know where you know , in the signal the transcriber heard that word . and so grad h: oh , i see , phd a: i mean , if if it 's a whole conversation and we get a long , uh , you know , par paragraph of of talk , grad h: it 's for the length . i see . phd a: uh , i do n't know how they do this . um , we actually do n't know which piece goes where . grad h: i understand . phd a: and , um , i think with phd e: well you would need to like a forced alignment before you did the chopping , right ? phd a: no , we used the fact that so when jane transcribes them the way she has transcribers doing this , whether it 's with the pre - segmentation or not , grad h: it 's already chunked . phd a: they have a chunk and then they transcribes { comment } the words in the chunk . and maybe they choose the chunk or now they use a pre - segmentation and then correct it if necessary . but there 's first a chunk and then a transcription . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: then a chunk , then a transcription . that 's great , cuz the recognizer can grad h: uh , it 's all pretty good sized for the recognizer also . phd a: right , and it it helps that it 's made based on sort of heuristics and human ear i think . postdoc g: good . oh good . phd a: th - but there 's going to be a real problem , uh , even if we chop up based on speech silence these , uh , the transcripts from i b m , we do n't actually know where the words were , which segment they belonged to . grad h: right . phd a: so that 's sort of what i 'm worried about right now . phd e: why not do a a a forced alignment ? grad h: that 's what she 's saying , is that you ca n't . phd a: if you do a forced alignment on something really grad h: got uh six sixty minutes of phd a: well even if you do it on something really long you need to know you can always chop it up but you need to have a reference of which words went with which , uh , chop . postdoc g: now was n't i thought that one of the proposals was that ibm was going to do an initial forced alignment , phd a: so postdoc g: after they grad h: yeah , but professor b: i i think that they are , grad h: we 'll have to talk to brian . professor b: um , yeah , i 'm sure they will and so we we have to have a dialogue with them about it . phd a: yeah . professor b: i mean , it sounds like liz has some concerns phd a: maybe they have some you know , maybe actually there is some , even if they 're not fine grained , maybe the transcribers professor b: and phd a: uh , i do n't know , maybe it 's saved out in pieces or or something . that would help . postdoc g: yeah . phd a: but , uh , it 's just an unknown right now . postdoc g: yeah . i i need to to write to him . phd a: so . postdoc g: i just you know , it 's like i got over - taxed with the timing . phd a: right . but the it is true that the segments i have n't tried the segments that thilo gave you but the segments that in your first meeting are great . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: i mean , that 's that 's a good length . postdoc g: a good size . good . phd a: right , cuz postdoc g: well , i i was thinking it would be fun to to uh , uh , if if you would n't mind , { comment } to give us a pre - segmentation . phd a: y yeah . phd c: yeah . postdoc g: uh , maybe you have one already of that first m of the meeting that uh , the first transcribed meeting , the one that i transcribed . phd c: um , i 'm sure i have some postdoc g: do you have a could you generate a pre - segmentation ? grad h: february sixteenth i think . phd c: but but that 's the one where we 're , um , trai training on , so that 's a little bit grad h: oh . postdoc g: oh , i see . phd c: it 's a little bit at odd to postdoc g: oh , darn . of course , of course , of course . yeah , ok . phd c: yeah . phd a: and actually as you get transcripts just , um , for new meetings , { comment } um , we can try postdoc g: uh - huh . phd a: i mean , the the more data we have to try the the alignments on , um , the better . so it 'd be good for just to know as transcriptions are coming through the pipeline from the transcribers , just to sort of we 're playing around with sort of uh , parameters f on the recognizer , postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: cuz that would be helpful . especially as you get , en more voices . postdoc g: excellent , good . phd a: the first meeting had i think just four people , phd c: four speakers , yeah . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . postdoc g: yeah , liz and i spoke d w at some length on tuesday and and i and i was planning to do just a a preliminary look over of the two that are finished and then give them to you . phd a: oh , great , great . postdoc g: yeah . phd a: so . professor b: that 's great . i guess the other thing , i i ca n't remember if we discussed this in the meeting but , uh , i know you and i talked about this a little bit , there was an issue of , uh , suppose we get in the , uh , i guess it 's enviable position although maybe it 's just saying where the weak link is in the chain , uh , where we we , uh uh , we have all the data transcribed and we have these transcribers and we were we 're the we 're still a bit slow on feeding at that point we 've caught up and the the the , uh , the weak link is is recording meetings . ok , um , two questions come , is you know what how how do we uh , it 's not really a problem at the moment cuz we have n't reached that point but how do we step out the recorded meetings ? and the other one is , um , uh , is there some good use that we can make of the transcribers to do other things ? so , um , i i ca n't remember how much we talked about this in this meeting but there was grad h: we had spoken with them about it . postdoc g: and there is one use that that also we discussed which was when , uh , dave finishes the and maybe it 's already finished the the modification to multi - trans which will allow fine grained encoding of overlaps . uh , then it would be very these people would be very good to shift over to finer grain encoding of overlaps . it 's just a matter of , you know , providing so if right now you have two overlapping segments in the same time bin , well with with the improvement in the database in in the , uh , sorry , in the interface , it 'd be possible to , um , you know , just do a click and drag thing , and get the uh , the specific place of each of those , the time tag associated with the beginning and end of of each segment . professor b: right , so i think we talking about three level three things . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: one one was uh , we had s had some discussion in the past about some very high level labelings , postdoc g: yeah . the types of overlaps professor b: types of overlaps , and so forth that that someone could do . second was , uh , somewhat lower level postdoc g: mm - hmm . professor b: just doing these more precise timings . and the third one is is , uh , just a completely wild hair brained idea that i have which is that , um , if , uh if we have time and people are able to do it , to take some subset of the data and do some very fine grained analysis of the speech . for instance , uh , marking in some overlapping potentially overlapping fashion , uh , the value of , uh , ar articulatory features . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: you know , just sort of say , ok , it 's voiced from here to here , there 's it 's nasal from here to here , and so forth . um , as opposed to doing phonetic uh , you know , phonemic and the phonetic analysis , grad h: professor b: and , uh , assuming , uh , articulatory feature values for those those things . um , obviously that 's extremely time - consuming . uh phd e: that would be really valuable i think . professor b: but , uh , we could do it on some small subset . postdoc g: also if you 're dealing with consonants that would be easier than vowels , would n't it ? i mean , i would think that that , uh , being able to code that there 's a a fricative extending from here to here would be a lot easier than classifying precisely which vowel that was . grad h: which one . phd a: mmm . professor b: mm - hmm . postdoc g: i think vowels vowels are i think harder . professor b: well , yeah , phd c: yeah . professor b: but i think also it 's just the issue that that when you look at the u w u u when you look at switchboard for instance very close up there are places where whether it 's a consonant or a vowel you still have trouble calling it a particular phone postdoc g: mm - hmm . professor b: at that point postdoc g: mm - hmm , ok . grad h: yeah , but but just saying what the professor b: because it 's you know , there 's this movement from here to here postdoc g: yeah , i 'm sure . uh , yeah , i i know . phd a: right . professor b: and and and it 's so i phd e: you 're saying r sort of remove the high level constraints and go bottom - up . professor b: yeah , describe describe it . phd e: then just say grad h: yep , just features . phd a: mmm . professor b: now i 'm suggesting articulatory features . maybe there 's there 's even a better way to do it but it but but that 's , you know , sort of a traditional way of describing these things , phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: um , and uh , i mean , actually this might be a g neat thing to talk to postdoc g: that 's nice . phd e: acoustic features versus psychological categories . professor b: sort of . i mean , it 's still phd e: yeah . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: some sort of categories but but something that allows for overlapping change of these things and then this would give some more ground work for people who were building statistical models that allowed for overlapping changes , different timing changes as opposed to just `` click , you 're now in this state , which corresponds to this speech sound `` and so on . phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: so this is like gestural uh , these g professor b: yeah , something like that . phd a: right . ok . professor b: i mean , actually if we get into that it might be good to , uh , uh , haul john ohala into this phd a: right . professor b: and ask his his views on it i think . grad h: yeah . phd a: but is is the goal there to have this on meeting data , postdoc g: excellent . phd a: like so that you can do far field studies { comment } of those gestures or um , or is it because you think there 's a different kind of actual production in meetings { comment } that people use ? or ? professor b: no , i think i think it 's for for for that purpose i 'm just viewing meetings as being a a neat way to get people talking naturally . and then you have i and then and then it 's natural in all senses , phd e: just a source of data ? phd a: i see . professor b: in the sense that you have microphones that are at a distance that you know , one might have , and you have the close mikes , and you have people talking naturally . and the overlap is just indicative of the fact that people are talking naturally , phd a: uh - huh . phd d: yeah . phd a: right . professor b: right ? so so i think that given that it 's that kind of corpus , phd d: yeah . professor b: if it 's gon na be a very useful corpus um , if you say w ok , we 've limited the use by some of our , uh , uh , censored choices , we do n't have the video , we do n't and so forth , but there 's a lot of use that we could make of it by expanding the annotation choices . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh , most of the things we 've talked about have been fairly high level , and being kind of a bottom - up person i thought maybe we 'd , do some of the others . grad h: hmm . phd a: right . yeah , that would be good . postdoc g: it 's a nice balance . professor b: yeah . postdoc g: that would be really nice to offer those things with that wide range . phd a: right . professor b: yeah and hopefully someone would make use of it . postdoc g: really nice . professor b: i mean , people did n't postdoc g: yeah . professor b: uh , i mean , people have made a lot of use of of timit and , uh w due to its markings , and then the switchboard transcription thing , well i think has been very useful for a lot of people . grad h: right . phd a: that 's true . professor b: so phd a: i guess i wanted to , um , sort of make a pitch for trying to collect more meetings . postdoc g: cool . phd a: um , professor b: yeah . phd a: i actually i talked to chuck fillmore and i think they 've what , vehemently said no before but this time he was n't vehement and he said you know , `` well , liz , come to the meeting tomorrow professor b: yeah . phd a: and try to convince people `` . so i 'm gon na try . go to their meeting tomorrow and see if we can try , uh , to convince them postdoc g: mm - hmm . good . professor b: cuz they have something like three or four different meetings , phd a: because they have and they have very interesting meetings from the point of view of a very different type of of talk than we have here professor b: right ? postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd d: talk phd a: and definitely than the front end meeting , probably . um phd e: you mean in terms of the topic topics ? phd a: well , yes and in terms of the the fact that they 're describing abstract things and , uh , just dialogue - wise , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: right . phd e: mm - hmm . phd a: um , so i 'll try . and then the other thing is , i do n't know if this is at all useful , but i asked lila if i can maybe go around and talk to the different departments in this building to see if there 's any groups that , for a free lunch , professor b: yes . phd a: if we can still offer that , might be willing professor b: great . grad h: you mean non - icsi ? phd a: non - icsi , non - academic , grad h: yeah , i guess you you can try phd a: you know , like government people , grad h: but phd a: i do n't know . grad h: the problem is so much of their stuff is confidential . phd a: so . phd d: yeah . postdoc g: yeah . grad h: it would be very hard for them . phd a: is is it in these departments ? phd d: yeah . postdoc g: also it does seem like it takes us way out of the demographic . i mean , it seems like we we had this idea before of having like linguistics students brought down for free lunches grad h: well , tha i think that 's her point . postdoc g: and that 's a nice idea . phd a: right , and then we could also we might try advertising again because i think it 'd be good if if we can get a few different sort of non - internal types of meetings postdoc g: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd a: and just also more data . so . phd e: does does john ohala have weekly phonetics lab meetings ? postdoc g: mm - hmm . grad h: and i think , uh , if we could get phd a: so i actually wrote to him and he answered , `` great , that sounds really interesting `` . but i never heard back because we did n't actually advertise openly . we a i mean w i told i d asked him privately . um , and it is a little bit of a trek for campus folks . postdoc g: mm - hmm . grad h: yeah . you might give them a free lunch . phd a: um , so it 's still worthwhile . grad h: but , um , it would be nice if we got someone other than me who knew how to set it up and could do the recording phd a: so grad h: so u i did n't have to do it each time . phd a: exactly , and and postdoc g: yeah . that 's right . phd a: and i was thinking professor b: he - he 's supposed he 's supposed to be trained to do it . phd a: yeah . plus we could also get you know , a s a student . grad h: ok , next week you 're going to do it all . phd d: yeah . phd a: and i 'm willing to try to learn . i mean , i 'm i would do my best . um , the other thing is that there was a number of things at the transcription side that , um , transcribers can do , like dialogue act tagging , grad h: it 's not that hard . phd a: disfluency tagging , um , things that are in the speech that are actually something we 're y { comment } working on for language modeling . and mari 's also interested in it , andreas as well . so if you wan na process a utterance and the first thing they say is , `` well `` , and that `` well `` is coded as some kind of interrupt u tag . uh , and things like that , um , th postdoc g: of course some of that can be li done lexically . phd a: a lot of it can be done postdoc g: and i also they are doing disfluency tagging to some degree already . phd a: great . so a a lot of this kind of postdoc g: yeah . phd a: i think there 's a second pass and i do n't really know what would exist in it . but there 's definitely a second pass worth doing to maybe encode some kinds of , you know , is it a question or not , postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: or um , that maybe these transcribers could do . so yeah . postdoc g: they 'd be really good . they 're they 're very they 're very consistent . phd a: that 'd be great . professor b: mm - hmm . postdoc g: uh , i wanted to whi while we 're uh , so , to return just briefly to this question of more meeting data , um i have two questions . one of them is , um , jerry feldman 's group , they they , uh , are they i know that they recorded one meeting . are they willing ? professor b: i think they 're open to it . i think , you know , all these things are phd a: oh , yeah . professor b: i think there 's we should go beyond , uh , icsi but , i mean , there 's a lot of stuff happening at icsi that we 're not getting now that we could . phd a: oh , that we could . professor b: so it 's just postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: ok . i thought that all these people had sort of said `` no `` twice already . professor b: yeah . so the phd a: if that 's not the case then professor b: no , no . no . so th there was the thing in fillmore 's group but even there he had n't what he 'd said `` no `` to was for the main meeting . but they have several smaller meetings a week , grad h: so . professor b: and , uh , the notion was raised before that that could happen . and it just , you know it just did n't come together phd a: just ok . phd e: well , and and the other thing too is when they originally said `` no `` they did n't know about this post - editing capability thing . professor b: but phd a: right . postdoc g: oh . professor b: yeah . yeah . phd a: right . that was a big fear . phd e: so . postdoc g: that 's important . professor b: yeah , so i mean there 's possibilities there . i think jerry 's group , yes . phd a: ok . professor b: uh , there 's there 's , uh , the networks group , uh , i do n't do they still meeting regularly or ? grad h: well , i do n't know if they meet regularly or not but they are no longer recording . professor b: but i mean , ha ha have they said they do n't want to anymore or ? grad h: um , ugh , what was his name ? professor b: uh , i i postdoc g: joe sokol ? grad h: yeah . professor b: yeah . grad h: when with him gone , it sorta trickled off . professor b: ok , so they 're down to three or four people grad h: they and they stopped yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: but the thing is three or four people is ok . grad h: yep . postdoc g: we might be able to get the administration grad h: well he was sort of my contact , so i just need to find out who 's running it now . professor b: ok . grad h: so . postdoc g: i see that lila has a luncheon meeting in here periodically . phd a: yeah , i mean , it one thing that would be nice postdoc g: i do n't know phd a: and this it sounds bizarre but , i 'd really like to look at to get some meetings where there 's a little bit of heated discussion , like ar arguments and or emotion , and things like that . and so i was thinking if there 's any like berkeley political groups or something . i mean , that 'd be perfect . some group , `` yes , we must `` grad h: who 's willing to get recorded and distributed ? phd a: well , you know , something phd c: yeah . grad f: yeah , i do n't think the more political argumentative ones would be willing to phd a: um professor b: yeah , with with with potential use from the defense department . phd d: yeah . phd a: well , ok . professor b: yeah . phd a: no , but maybe stu student , uh , groups or , um , film - makers , or som something a little bit colorful . phd c: yeah . grad f: yeah . exactly . postdoc g: yeah . grad h: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah . yeah , th there 's a problem there in terms of , uh , the um commercial value of of st uh , postdoc g: yeah , of course there is this problem though , that if we give them the chance to excise later we e might end up with like five minutes out of a f { comment } of m one hour phd d: film - maker . grad h: of beeps , phd c: yeah . yeah . grad h: yeah . phd a: and i do n't mean that they 're angry phd d: is postdoc g: of { comment } yes . really . phd a: but just something with some more variation in prosodic contours and so forth would be neat . so if anyone has ideas , i 'm willing to do the leg work to go try to talk to people but i do n't really know which groups are worth pursuing . postdoc g: well there was this k p f a grad h: no that 's postdoc g: but ok . grad h: legal . postdoc g: ok , ok . professor b: it it it it turned out to be a bit of a problem . phd a: or postdoc g: and i had one other one other aspect of this which is , um , uh , uh , jonathan fiscus expressed primar uh y a major interest in having meetings which were all english speakers . now he was n't trying to shape us in terms of what we gather professor b: mm - hmm . postdoc g: but that 's what he wanted me to show him . so i 'm giving him our , um our initial meeting because he asked for all english . and i think we do n't have a lot of all english meetings right now . professor b: of all all nat all native speakers . phd e: did he mean , uh did he mean and non - british ? grad h: well phd c: the all native . postdoc g: that 's what i mean , yeah . grad h: well if he meant and non - british i think we have zero . postdoc g: he does n't care . no . eh , well , british is ok . phd e: he said british was ok ? postdoc g: but but sure , sure , sure . professor b: why ? grad h: british is english ? phd c: postdoc g: yeah . different varieties of english . phd c: ooo , ooo . professor b: well , i do n't i do n't i do n't think if he did n't say that postdoc g: native speaking . native speaking english . grad h: i bet he meant native speaking american . postdoc g: yes . professor b: i bet he did . phd c: american english ? postdoc g: oh , really . grad h: so , why would he care ? phd e: knowing the application phd a: that 's professor b: i remember wh i i remember a study phd a: i was thinking , knowing the , uh , n national institute of standards , it is all professor b: i remember a study that bbn did where they trained on this was in wall street journal days or something , they trained on american english and then they tested on , uh , different native speakers from different areas . and , uh , uh , the worst match was people whose native tongue was mandarin chinese . the second worst was british english . postdoc g: that 's funny . professor b: so h it 's , you know , t postdoc g: alright . and so that would make sense . professor b: the the the german was much better , phd c: ooo , ooo . postdoc g: i did n't have the context of that . professor b: it was swiss w yeah , so it 's so i think , you know , if he 's if he 's thinking in terms of recognition kind of technology i i i think he would probably want , uh american english , postdoc g: all america , ok . grad h: i wonder if we have any . professor b: yeah . it it yeah , unless we 're gon na train with a whole bunch of postdoc g: i think that the feldman 's meetings tend to be more that way , are n't they ? i mean , i sort of feel like they have professor b: i think so , grad h: maybe . phd a: yeah , professor b: yeah . grad h: maybe . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . phd d: mmm . grad h: and maybe there are a few of with us where it was professor b: yeah . grad h: you know , dan was n't there and before jose started coming , professor b: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad h: and professor b: it 's pretty tough , uh , this group . yeah . grad h: yeah . phd c: mmm . professor b: so , uh , what about what about people who involved in some artistic endeavor ? phd d: yeah . professor b: i mean , film - making or something like that . phd a: exactly , that 's what i was professor b: you 'd think like they would be phd d: a film - maker . phd a: something where there there is actually discussion where there 's no right or wrong answer but but it 's a matter of opinion kind of thing . uh , anyway , if you if you have ideas postdoc g: it 's be fun . grad h: rasta . plp . rasta . plp . phd d: yes . grad f: we can just discu we can just have a political discussion one day . phd a: yeah , we could phd e: a any department that calls itself science phd d: department . grad f: uh , i could make that pretty phd d: yeah . grad h: well , like computer science . phd d: computer sci grad h: that postdoc g: we could get julia child . i know . phd a: i 'm i 'm actually serious grad h: that 's phd a: because , uh , you know , we have the set up here grad h: got a ticket . professor b: yeah , i know you are . phd a: and and that that has a chance to give us some very interesting fun data . so if anyone has ideas , phd d: yeah . phd a: if you know any groups that are m you know , professor b: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad h: well i had asked some some of the students at the business school . phd a: student groups c like clubs , things like that . grad f: i know grad h: i could phd a: not not professor b: put a little ad up saying , `` come here and argue `` . phd a: yeah . `` if you 're really angry at someone use our conference room . `` grad h: the business school . uh , the business school might be good . i actually spoke with some students up there phd a: oh , ok . grad h: and they they they expressed willingness back when they thought they would be doing more stuff with speech . phd a: really . grad h: but when they lost interest in speech they also stopped answering my email about other stuff , so . phd d: hmm . phd a: or people who are really h professor b: they could have a discussion about te grad f: i grad h: we should probably bleep that out . professor b: about about tax cuts or something . grad f: i heard that at cal tech they have a special room someone said that they had a special room to get all your frustrations out that you can go to and like throw things and break things . professor b: yeah , now that is not actually what we grad f: so we can like post a grad h: th - that 's not what we want . grad f: no , not to that extent phd a: well , far field mikes can pick up where they threw stuff on the wall . grad f: but , um . yeah . professor b: yeah , but we do n't want them to throw the far field mikes is the thing . phd a: oh . yeah , right . grad h: that 's right . phd d: the fa grad f: yeah . phd d: grad h: `` please throw everything in that direction . `` professor b: yeah . anyway . grad h: padded cell . postdoc g: it 'd be fun to get like a a p visit from the grad h: there was a dorm room at tech that , uh , someone had coated the walls and the ceiling , and , uh , the floor with mattresses . grad f: mmm . grad h: the entire room . professor b: i had as my fourth thing here processing of wave forms . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: what did we mean by that ? remember @ @ ? grad h: uh , liz wanted to talk about methods of improving accuracy by doing pre - processing . postdoc g: pre - processing . phd a: well i think that that was just sort of i i already asked thilo professor b: oh , you already did that . phd a: but that , um , it would be helpful if i can stay in the loop somehow with , um , people who are doing any kind of post - processing , whether it 's to separate speakers or to improve the signal - to - noise ratio , or both , um , that we can sort of try out as we 're running recognition . um , so , i is that who else is work i guess dan ellis and you phd c: dan , yeah . professor b: yeah , and dave uh gel - gelbart again , grad h: yep . phd a: and dave . phd c: yep . phd a: ok . phd d: yeah . professor b: he 's he 's interested in in fact we 're look starting to look at some echo cancellation kind of things . phd a: ok . professor b: which uh grad h: i am not sure how much that 's an issue with the close talking mikes , professor b: hmm ? grad h: but who knows ? professor b: well , let 's w i is n't that what what you want phd a: i do n't know . i 'm bad professor b: t no , so no , i w wha what you what you want when you 're saying improving the wave form you want the close talking microphone to be better . phd a: it 's like { comment } like professor b: right ? grad h: right . professor b: and the question is to w to what extent is it getting hurt by , uh by any room acoustics or is it just uh , given that it 's close it 's not a problem ? phd a: it does n't seem like big room acoustics problems to my ear professor b: uh phd a: but i 'm not an expert . it seems like a problem with cross - talk . professor b: ok , so it 's phd c: yeah . grad h: e i bet with the lapel mike there 's plenty , uh , room acoustic phd a: that that may be true . grad h: but i i think the rest is cross - talk . phd a: but i do n't know how good it can get either by those the those methods grad h: yeah . phd a: that 's true . professor b: ok . grad h: so i i think it 's just , phd a: oh , i do n't know . grad h: yeah , what you said , cross - talk . phd a: all i meant is just that as sort of as this pipeline of research is going on we 're also experimenting with different asr , uh , techniques . grad h: mm - hmm . phd a: and so it 'd be w good to know about it . phd e: so the problem is like , uh , on the microphone of somebody who 's not talking they 're picking up signals from other people { comment } and that 's causing problems ? phd a: r right , although if they 're not talking , using the the inhouse transcriptions , were sort of o k because the t no one transcribed any words there and we throw it out . phd e: mm - hmm . phd a: but if they 're talking at all and they 're not talking the whole time , so you get some speech and then a `` mm - hmm `` , and some more speech , so that whole thing is one chunk . and the person in the middle who said only a little bit is picking up the speech around it , that 's where it 's a big problem . postdoc g: you know , this does like seem like it would relate to some of what jose 's been working on as well , the encoding of the phd d: yeah . postdoc g: and and he also , he was phd a: the energy , phd d: yeah , phd a: right . exactly . phd d: energy . postdoc g: i was t i was trying to remember , you have this interface where you i you ha you showed us one time on your laptop that you you had different visual displays as speech and nonspeech events . phd d: yeah , c yeah . may i i only display the different colors for the different situation . but , eh , for me and for my problems , is uh is enough . because , eh , it 's possible , eh , eh , in a simp sample view , uh , to , nnn , to compare with c with the segment , the the kind of assessment what happened with the the different parameters . and only with a different bands of color for the , uh , few situation , eh , i consider for acoustic event is enough to @ @ . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd d: i i i see that , eh , you are considering now , eh , a very sophisticated , eh , ehm , eh , @ @ { comment } set of , eh , graphic s eh , eh , ehm , si symbols to to transcribe . no ? because , uh , before , you you are talking about the the possibility to include in the transcriber program eh , um , a set of symbols , of graphic symbol to t to mark the different situations during the transcription postdoc g: oh , i w uh - huh . phd d: during the transcription . no ? postdoc g: well , you 're saying so , uh , symbols for differences between laugh , and sigh , and and and slam the door and stuff ? phd d: yeah . yeah , yeah . the s the symbols , you you talk of before . postdoc g: or some other kind of thing ? phd d: no ? to to mark postdoc g: well , i would n't say symbols so much . the the main change that i that i see in the interface is is just that we 'll be able to more finely c uh , time things . phd d: yeah . yeah . postdoc g: but i i also st there was another aspect of your work that i was thinking about when i was talking to you phd a: hmm . postdoc g: which is that it sounded to me , liz , as though you and , uh , maybe i did n't q understand this , but it sounded to me as though part of the analysis that you 're doing involves taking segments which are of a particular type and putting them together . phd d: yeah . postdoc g: and th so if you have like a p a s you know , speech from one speaker , then you cut out the part that 's not that speaker , phd a: mm - hmm . postdoc g: and you combine segments from that same speaker to { comment } and run them through the recognizer . is that right ? phd a: well we try to find as close of start and end time of as we can to the speech from an individual speaker , postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: because then we we 're more guaranteed that the recognizer will for the forced alignment which is just to give us the time boundaries , because from those time boundaries then the plan is to compute prosodic features . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: and the sort of more space you have that is n't the thing you 're trying to align the more errors we have . um , so , you know , that that it would help to have either pre - processing of a signal that creates very good signal - to - noise ratio , postdoc g: mm - hmm . cuz i ok . phd a: which i do n't know how possible this is for the lapel , um , or to have very to have closer , um , time you know , synch times , basically , around the speech that gets transcribed in it , or both . and it 's just sort of a open world right now of exploring that . so i just wanted to see , you know , on the transcribing end from here things look good . uh , the ibm one is more it 's an open question right now . and then the issue of like global processing of some signal and then , you know , before we chop it up is is yet another way we can improve things in that . phd e: what about increasing the flexibility of the alignment ? postdoc g: ok . phd e: do you remember that thing that michael finka did ? phd a: mm - hmm . phd e: that experiment he did a while back ? phd a: right . you can , um the problem is just that the acoustic when the signal - to - noise ratio is too low , um , you you 'll get , a uh an alignment with the wrong duration pattern or it phd e: oh , so that 's the problem , is the the signal - to - noise ratio . phd a: yeah . it 's not the fact that you have like i mean , what he did is allow you to have , uh , words that were in another segment move over to the at the edges of of segmentations . phd e: mm - hmm . or even words inserted that were n't were n't there . phd a: right , things things near the boundaries where if you got your alignment wrong phd e: mm - hmm . phd a: cuz what they had done there is align and then chop . phd e: mm - hmm . phd a: um , and this problem is a little bit j more global . it 's that there are problems even in inside the alignments , uh , because of the fact that there 's enough acoustic signal there t for the recognizer to to eat , as part of a word . and it tends to do that . s so , uh , phd d: yeah . phd a: but we probably will have to do something like that in addition . anyway . so , yeah , bottom bottom line is just i wanted to make sure i can be aware of whoever 's working on these signal - processing techniques for , uh , detecting energies , phd d: yeah . phd a: because that that 'll really help us . professor b: o k , uh tea has started out there i suggest we c run through our digits and , postdoc g: ok . professor b: uh , so , ok , we 're done .

the group discussed recording equipment and setup issues , recent developments in the transcription effort , other potential types of tagging to be assigned to transcribers , and the post-processing of waveforms . the discussion was largely focused on efforts to facilitate transcriptions , including the improvement of strategies for transcribing overlapping speech , and achieving greater uniformity in the type of equipment used during recordings and the manner in which recording devices are worn by speakers .

what did phd a say about microphones ? </s> professor b: are we on ? we 're on . ok . phd e: is it on ? phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah . ok , phd d: one , two u ok . phd a: why is it so cold in here ? professor b: so , uh , we have n't sent around the agenda . so , i uh , any agenda items anybody has , wants to talk about , what 's going on ? postdoc g: i c i could talk about the meeting . grad h: does everyone has everyone met don ? postdoc g: yeah . professor b: it 's on ? phd c: now , yeah . phd d: yeah . grad h: yeah ? ok . phd d: yeah . grad f: hello . professor b: ok , agenda item one , phd d: we went grad f: yeah . professor b: introduce don . ok , we did that . uh phd a: well , i had a just a quick question but i know there was discussion of it at a previous meeting that i missed , but just about the the wish list item of getting good quality close - talking mikes on every speaker . professor b: ok , so let 's let 's so let 's just do agenda building right now . ok , so let 's talk about that a bit . phd a: i mean , that was professor b: uh , @ @ tuss close talking mikes , better quality . ok , uh , we can talk about that . you were gon na starting to say something ? postdoc g: well , you you , um , already know about the meeting { comment } that 's coming up and i do n't know if if this is appropriate for this . i do n't know . i mean , maybe maybe it 's something we should handle outside of the meeting . professor b: no , no , that 's ok . phd e: what meeting ? professor b: we can so we can ta so n nist is nist folks are coming by next week postdoc g: ok . professor b: and so we can talk about that . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: i think phd e: who 's coming ? professor b: uh , uh , john fiscus postdoc g: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh , i think george doddington will be around as well . uh , ok , so we can talk about that . uh , i guess just hear about how things are going with , uh , uh , the transcriptions . that 's right . postdoc g: sure . mm - hmm . professor b: that would sorta be an obvious thing to discuss . um , an - anything else , uh , strike anybody ? phd a: uh , we started running recognition on one conversation but it 's the r is n't working yet . so , but if anyone has professor b: ok . phd e: wha phd a: uh , the main thing would be if anyone has , um , knowledge about ways to , uh , post - process the wave forms that would give us better recognition , that would be helpful to know about . professor b: um , grad h: dome yeah , it sounds like a topic of conversation . professor b: yeah , so , uh phd e: what about , uh , is there anything new with the speech , nonspeech stuff ? phd c: yeah , we 're working more on it but , it 's not finished . professor b: ok . alright , that seems like a a good collection of things . and we 'll undoubtedly think of other things . postdoc g: i had thought under my topic that i would mention the , uh , four items that i i , uh , put out for being on the agenda f on that meeting , which includes like the pre - segmentation and the and the developments in multitrans . professor b: oh , under the nist meeting . postdoc g: yeah , under the nist thing . professor b: ok . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: alright , why do n't we start off with this , u u i guess the order we brought them up seems fine . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: um , so , better quality close talking mikes . so the one issue was that the the , uh , lapel mike , uh , is n't as good as you would like . and so , uh , it it 'd be better if we had close talking mikes for everybody . right ? phd a: ri - um , professor b: is that is that basically the point ? phd a: yeah , the and actually in addition to that , that the the close talking mikes are worn in such a way as to best capture the signal . and the reason here is just that for the people doing work not on microphones but on sort of like dialogue and so forth , uh or and even on prosody , which don is gon na be working on soon , it adds this extra , you know , vari variable for each speaker to to deal with when the microphones are n't similar . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: right . phd a: so and i also talked to mari this morning and she also had a strong preference for doing that . and in fact she said that that 's useful for them to know in starting to collect their data too . professor b: mm - hmm . right , so one th grad h: well , so professor b: uh , well one thing i was gon na say was that , um , i we could get more , uh , of the head mounted microphones even beyond the number of radio channels we have because i think whether it 's radio or wire is probably second - order . and the main thing is having the microphone close to you , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: u although , not too close . grad h: right , so , uh , actually the way jose is wearing his is is c correct . phd d: yeah . is grad h: the good way . so you want to professor b: yeah . phd d: i it 's not cor it 's correct ? professor b: is . grad h: yeah , th that 's good . professor b: yes . phd d: yeah . grad h: so it 's towards the corner of your mouth so that breath sounds do n't get on it . phd d: yeah . yeah . grad h: and then just sort of about , uh , a thumb or a thumb and a half away from your from your mouth . phd d: yeah . yeah . uh , yeah . professor b: right . phd a: but we have more than one type of professor b: how am i d phd a: i mean , for instance , you 're phd c: yeah . grad h: and this one is n't very adjustable , phd d: yeah . grad h: so this about as good as i can get phd a: right . phd d: yeah . grad h: cuz it 's a fixed boom . phd d: is fixed . yeah . phd a: but if we could actually standardize , you know , the the microphones , uh , as much as possible that would be really helpful . professor b: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . grad h: mm - hmm . professor b: well , i mean it does n't hurt to have a few extra microphones around , phd d: yeah . professor b: so why do n't we just go out and and get an order of of if this microphone seems ok to people , uh , i 'd just get a half dozen of these things . grad h: well the onl the only problem with that is right now , um , some of the jimlets are n't working . the little the boxes under the table . professor b: yeah . grad h: and so , w uh , i 've only been able to find three jacks that are working . professor b: yeah . phd e: can we get these , wireless ? grad h: so professor b: no , but my point is phd a: but y we could just record these signals separately and time align them with the start of the meeting . professor b: r r right grad h: i i 'm not sure i 'm follow . say that again ? professor b: right now , we 've got , uh , two microphones in the room , that are not quote - unquote standard . so why do n't we replace those grad h: ok , just two . professor b: well , however many we can plug in . you know , if we can plug in three , let 's plug in three . grad h: ok . phd d: mm - yeah . professor b: also what we 've talked before about getting another , uh , radio , grad h: right . professor b: and so then that would be , you know , three more . grad h: right . ok . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: so , uh so we should go out to our full complement of whatever we can do , but have them all be the same mike . i think the original reason that it was done the other way was because , it w it was sort of an experimental thing and i do n't think anybody knew whether people would rather have more variety or or , uh , more uniformity , phd a: right . professor b: but @ @ { comment } but uh , sounds sounds fine . grad h: sounds like uniformity wins . phd d: right . phd a: well , for short term research it 's just there 's just so much effort that would have to be done up front n uh , professor b: yeah . grad h: well phd a: so yeah , uniformity would be great . grad h: yeah . phd e: is it because you you 're saying the for dialogue purposes , so that means that the transcribers are having trouble with those mikes ? is that what you mean ? phd a: well jane would know more about the transcribers . phd e: or ? postdoc g: and that 's true . i mean , i we did discuss this . uh , and and grad h: yep . couple times . postdoc g: a couple times , so , um , yeah , the transcribers notice and in fact there 're some where , um ugh well , i mean there 's it 's the double thing . it 's the equipment and also how it 's worn . phd a: right . postdoc g: and he 's always they always they just rave about how wonderful adam 's adam 's channel is . grad h: what can i say . postdoc g: and then , phd a: so does the recognizer . professor b: yeah . postdoc g: yeah . grad h: oh , really ? yeah , i 'm not surprised . i mean , `` baaah ! `` phd a: even if if you 're talking on someone else 's mike it 's still you w postdoc g: yeah , but i mean it 's not just that , it 's also you know you professor b: yeah . phd c: yeah . postdoc g: it 's also like n no breathing , no you know , it 's like it 's it 's um , professor b: yeah . postdoc g: it 's really it makes a big difference from the transcribers ' point of view grad h: yeah , it 's an advantage when you do n't breath . postdoc g: and also from the research s point of view . phd a: right . professor b: when we 're doing grad h: yeah , i think that the point of doing the close talking mike is to get a good quality signal . we 're not doing research on close talking mikes . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: yeah . grad h: so we might as well get it as uniform as we can . phd a: right . professor b: now , this is locking the barn door after the horse was stolen . we do have thirty hours , of of speech , which is done this way . grad h: yeah . phd a: that 's ok . professor b: but but , uh , yeah , for future ones we can get it a bit more uniform . phd a: great , great . grad h: so i think just do a field trip at some point . professor b: yeah , probably yeah , to the store we talked about and that grad h: yep . postdoc g: and there was some talk about , uh , maybe the h headphones that are uncomfortable for people , to grad h: yep . so , as as i said , we 'll do a field trip and see if we can get all of the same mike that 's more comfortable than than these things , which i think are horrible . postdoc g: ok . good . grad h: so . phd a: great , thank you very much . phd e: especially for people with big heads . phd a: it 's makes our job a lot easier . professor b: ok . ok . grad h: and , you know , we 're researchers , so we all have big heads . professor b: ok . phd e: yeah . professor b: yeah . uh , ok , second item was the , uh , nist visit , and what 's going on there . postdoc g: yeah . ok , so , um , uh , jonathan fiscus is coming on the second of february and i 've spoken with , uh , u u a lot of people here , not everyone . um , and , um , he expressed an interest in seeing the room and in , um , seeing a demonstration of the modified multitrans , which i 'll mention in a second , and also , um , he was interested in the pre - segmentation and then he 's also interested in the transcription conventions . grad h: mm - hmm . postdoc g: and , um so , um , it seems to me in terms of like , um , i i it wou you know , ok . so the room , it 's things like the audio and c and audi audio and acoustic acoustic properties of the room and how it how the recordings are done , and that kind of thing . and , um . ok , in terms of the multi - trans , well that that 's being modified by dave gelbart to , uh , handle multi - channel recording . grad h: oh , i should 've i was just thinking i should have invited him to this meeting . i forgot to do it . postdoc g: yeah , ok . grad h: so . phd c: yeah . postdoc g: yeah . well that 's ok , i mean we 'll grad h: sorry . postdoc g: yeah , and it 's t and it looks really great . he he has a prototype . i i , uh , @ @ { comment } did n't did n't see it , uh , yesterday but i 'm going to see it today . and , uh , that 's that will enable us to do nice um , tight time marking of the beginning and ending of overlapping segments . at present it 's not possible with limitations of of the , uh , original design of the software . and um . so , i do n't know . in terms of , like , pre - segmentation , that that continues to be , um , a terrific asset to the to the transcribers . do you i know that you 're al also supplementing it further . do you want to mention something about that c thilo , or ? phd c: um , yeah . what what i 'm doing right now is i 'm trying to include some information about which channel , uh , there 's some speech in . but that 's not working at the moment . i 'm just trying to do this by comparing energies , uh normalizing energies and comparing energies of the different channels . postdoc g: ok . phd c: and so to to give the transcribers some information in which channel there 's there 's speech in addition to to the thing we we did now which is just , uh , speech - nonspeech detection on the mixed file . so i 'm i 'm relying on on the segmentation of the mixed file postdoc g: this is good . mm - hmm . phd c: but i 'm i 'm trying to subdivide the speech portions into different portions if there is some activity in in different channels . postdoc g: excellent , so this 'd be like w e providing also speaker id potentially . phd c: but yeah . yeah . postdoc g: wonderful . wonderful . professor b: um , something i guess i did n't put in the list but , uh , on that , uh , same day later on in or maybe it 's no , actually it 's this week , uh , dave gelbart and i will be , uh , visiting with john canny who i you know , is a cs professor , postdoc g: oh . professor b: who 's interested in ar in array microphones . grad h: hcc . oh , he 's doing array mikes . professor b: yeah . and so we wan na see what commonality there is here . you know , maybe they 'd wan na stick an array mike here when we 're doing things phd e: that would be cool . grad h: yeah , that would be neat . professor b: or or maybe it 's it 's not a specific array microphone they want phd d: yeah . phd e: that would be really neat . professor b: but they might wan na just , uh , you know , you could imagine them taking the four signals from these these table mikes and trying to do something with them um , i also had a discussion so , w uh , we 'll be over over there talking with him , um , after class on friday . um , we 'll let you know what what goes with that . also had a completely unrelated thing . i had a , uh , discussion today with , uh , birger kollmeier who 's a , uh , a german , uh , scientist who 's got a fair sized group doing a range of things . it 's sort of auditory related , largely for hearing aids and so on . but but , uh , he does stuff with auditory models and he 's very interested in directionality , and location , and and , uh , head models and microphone things . and so , uh , he 's he and possibly a student , there w there 's , uh , a student of his who gave a talk here last year , uh , may come here , uh , in the fall for , uh , sort of a five month , uh , sabbatical . so he might be around . get him to give some talks and so on . but anyway , he might be interested in this stuff . phd d: mm - hmm . phd e: that that reminds me , i had a a thought of an interesting project that somebody could try to do with the data from here , either using , you know , the the mikes on the table or using signal energies from the head worn mikes , phd d: mm - hmm . phd e: and that is to try to construct a map of where people were sitting , professor b: right . phd d: uh - huh . phd e: uh , based on grad h: well dan dan had worked on that . dan ellis , phd d: uh - huh . phd e: oh , did he ? oh , that 's interesting . grad h: yeah . so that that 's the cross - correlation stuff , was was doing b beam - forming . phd d: yeah . phd e: and so you could plot out who was sitting next to who professor b: a little bit , phd e: and professor b: i mean , he did n't do a very extreme thing but just it was just sort of phd d: yeah , yeah . grad h: no , he did start on it . professor b: e e given that , the the the block of wood with the the the two mikes { comment } on either side , grad h: mm - hmm . professor b: if i 'm speaking , or if you 're speaking , or someone over there is speaking , it if you look at cross - correlation functions , you end up with a phd d: yeah . professor b: if if someone who was on the axis between the two is talking , then you you get a big peak there . and if if someone 's talking on on on , uh , one side or the other , it goes the other way . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: and then , uh , it it it even looks different if th t if the two two people on either side are talking than if one in the middle . it it actually looks somewhat different , so . phd e: hmm . well i was just thinking , you know , as i was sitting here next to thilo that um , when he 's talking , my mike probably picks it up better than your guys 's mikes . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd e: so if you just looked at grad h: oh , that 's another cl cue , phd d: yeah . phd e: yeah , { comment } looked at { comment } the energy on my mike and you could get an idea about who 's closest to who . grad h: that 's true . phd d: yeah . professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . professor b: right . phd d: yeah . phd e: and grad h: or who talks the loudest . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah , well you have to the appropriate normalizations are tricky , and and and are probably the key . grad h: yeah . phd c: yeah . phd a: you just search for adam 's voice on each individual microphone , you pretty much know where everybody 's sitting . phd c: yeah . professor b: yeah . we 've switched positions recently so you ca n't anyway . ok . so those are just a little couple of news items . postdoc g: can i ask one thing ? uh , so , um , jonathan fiscus expressed an interest in , uh , microphone arrays . professor b: yes . postdoc g: um , is there i mean b and i also want to say , his he ca n't stay all day . he needs to uh , leave for uh , from here to make a two forty - five flight grad h: oh , so just morning . postdoc g: from from oakland . professor b: right . postdoc g: so it makes the scheduling a little bit tight but do you think that , um that , uh , i john canny should be involved in this somehow or not . i have no idea . professor b: probably not but i i 'll i 'll i 'll know better after i see him this friday what what kind of level he wants to get involved . postdoc g: it 's premature . fine . good . professor b: uh , he might be excited to and it might be very appropriate for him to , uh , or he might have no interest whatsoever . i i just really do n't know . postdoc g: ok . grad h: is he involved in ach ! { comment } i 'm blanking on the name of the project . nist has has done a big meeting room instrumented meeting room with video and microphone arrays , and very elaborate software . is is he the one working on that ? professor b: well that 's what they 're starting up . grad h: ok . professor b: yeah . no , i mean , that 's what all this is about . they they have n't done it yet . they wanted to do it grad h: ok . i had read some papers that looked like they had already done some work . professor b: uh , well i think they 've instrumented a room but i do n't think they they have n't started recordings yet . they do n't have the t the transcription standards . they do n't have the phd e: are they going to do video as well ? grad h: hmm . professor b: yeah . i think . phd e: hmm . professor b: i think they are . grad h: oh , cuz what what i had read was , uh , they had a uh very large amount of software infrastructure for coordinating all this , both in terms of recording and also live room where you 're interacting the participants are interacting with the computer , and with the video , and lots of other stuff . professor b: well , i 'm i 'm i 'm not sure . grad h: so . professor b: all all i know is that they 've been talking to me about a project that they 're going to start up recording people meet in meetings . grad h: ok . well professor b: and , uh , it is related to ours . they were interested in ours . they wanted to get some uniformity with us , uh , about the transcriptions and so on . grad h: alright . professor b: and one one notable difference u u actually i ca n't remember whether they were going to routinely collect video or not , but one one , uh , difference from the audio side was that they are interested in using array mikes . so , um , i mean , i 'll just tell you the party line on that . the reason i did n't go for that here was because , uh , the focus , uh , both of my interest and of adam 's interest was uh , in impromptu situations . and we 're not recording a bunch of impromptu situations but that 's because it 's different to get data for research than to actually apply it . phd d: hmm . professor b: and so , uh , for scientific reasons we thought it was good to instrument this room as we wanted it . but the thing we ultimately wanted to aim at was a situation where you were talking with , uh , one or more other people i uh , in in an p impromptu way , where you did n't did n't actually know what the situation was going to be . and therefore it would not it 'd be highly unlikely that room would be outfitted with with some very carefully designed array of microphones . um , so it was only for that reason . it was just , you know , yet another piece of research and it seemed like we had enough troubles just phd e: so there 's no like portable array of mikes ? professor b: no . so there 's there 's uh , there 's a whole range of things there 's a whole array of things , that people do on this . phd d: hmm . professor b: so , um , the , uh the big arrays , uh , places , uh , like uh , rutgers , and brown , and other other places , uh , they have , uh , big arrays with , i do n't know , a hundred hundred mikes or something . grad h: xerox . professor b: and so there 's a wall of mikes . and you get really , really good beam - forming { comment } with that sort of thing . phd e: wow . professor b: and it 's and , um , in fact at one point we had a a proposal in with rutgers where we were gon na do some of the sort of per channel signal - processing and they were gon na do the multi - channel stuff , but it d it d we ended up not doing it . but phd e: i 've seen demonstrations of the microphone arrays . it 's amazing how how they can cut out noise . professor b: yeah , it 's r it 's really neat stuff . grad h: and then they have little ones too professor b: and then they had the little ones , yeah . grad h: but i mean but they do n't have our block of wood , right ? professor b: yeah , our block of wood is unique . phd d: yeah . professor b: but the but the no , there are these commercial things now you can buy that have four mikes or something phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and and , uh , um so , yeah , there 's there 's there 's a range of things that people do . phd e: huh . professor b: um , so if we connected up with somebody who was interested in doing that sort of thing that 's that 's a good thing to do . i mean , whenever i 've described this to other people who are interested on the with the acoustic side that 's invariably the question they ask . just like someone who is interested in the general dialogue thing will always ask `` um , are you recording video ? `` phd a: right , professor b: um , right ? phd a: right . professor b: and and the acoustic people will always say , `` well are you doing , uh , uh , array microphones ? `` so it 's it 's a good thing to do , but it does n't solve the problem of how do you solve things when there 's one mike or at best two mikes in in this imagined pda that we have . so maybe maybe we 'll do some more of it . postdoc g: well one thing i i mean , i do n't know . i mean , i know that having an array of i mean , i would imagine it would be more expensive to have a an array of microphones . but could n't you kind of approximate the natural sis situation by just shutting off uh , channels when you 're later on ? i mean , it seems like if the microphones do n't effect each other then could n't you just , you know , record them with an array and then just not use all the data ? grad h: it 's it 's just a lot of infrastructure that for our particular purpose we felt we did n't need to set up . postdoc g: i see . phd a: yeah . postdoc g: fine . professor b: yeah , if ninety - nine percent of what you 're doing is c is shutting off most of the mikes , then going through the postdoc g: ok . professor b: but if you get somebody who 's who who has that as a primary interest then that put then that drives it in that direction . grad h: that 's right , i mean if someone if someone came in and said we really want to do it , phd a: right . grad h: i mean , we do n't care . that would be fine , phd e: so to save that data you you have to have one channel recording per mike in the array ? grad h: buy more disk space . professor b: well , uh , at some level at some level . phd e: is that grad h: i usually do a mix . professor b: but then , you know , there 's it there 's phd e: what you save , i mean , if you 're going to do research with it . yeah professor b: there 's i i do n't know what they 're going to do and i do n't know how big their array is . obviously if you were gon na save all of those channels for later research you 'd use up a lot of space . phd e: yeah . professor b: and , th phd e: hmm . grad h: well their software infrastructure had a very elaborate design for plugging in filters , and mixers , and all sorts of processing . so that they can do stuff in real time and not save out each channel individually . professor b: yeah . yeah . phd e: mmm . grad h: so it was , uh phd d: yeah . professor b: but i mean , uh , for optimum flexibility later you 'd want to save each channel . but i think in practical situations you would have some engine of some sort doing some processing to reduce this to some to the equivalent of a single microphone that was very directional . phd e: uh , oh , ok , i see . professor b: right ? phd a: i mean , it seems professor b: so phd e: sort of saving the result of the beam - forming . phd d: yeah . phd a: it seems to me that there 's you know , there are good political reasons for for doing this , just getting the data , because there 's a number of sites like right now sri is probably gon na invest a lot of internal funding into recording meetings also , which is good , um , but they 'll be recording with video and they 'll be you know , it 'd be nice if we can have at least , uh , make use of the data that we 're recording as we go since it 's sort of this is the first site that has really collected these really impromptu meetings , um , and just have this other information available . so , if we can get the investment in just for the infra infrastructure and then , i do n't know , save it out or have whoever 's interested save that data out , transfer it there , it 'd be g it 'd be good to have have the recording . i think . grad h: you mean to to actually get a microphone array and do that ? phd a: well , if even if we 're not grad h: and video and phd a: i 'm not sure about video . that 's sort of an video has a little different nature since right n right now we 're all being recorded but we 're not being taped . um , but it definitely in the case of microphone arrays , since if there was a community interested in this , then grad h: well , but i think we need a researcher here who 's interested in it . to push it along . professor b: see the problem is it it took , uh , uh , it took at least six months for dan to get together the hardware and the software , and debug stuff in in the microphones , and in the boxes . and it was a really big deal . and so i think we could get a microphone array in here pretty easily and , uh , have it mixed to to one channel of some sort . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: but , e i think for i mean , how we 're gon na decide for for maximum flexibility later you really do n't want to end up with just one channel that 's pointed in the direction of the the the p the person with the maximum energy or something like that . i mean , you you want actually to you want actually to have multiple channels being recorded so that you can and to do that , it we 're going to end up greatly increasing the disk space that we use up , we also only have boards that will take up to sixteen channels and in this meeting , we 've got eight people and and six mikes . and there we 're already using fourteen . grad h: and we actually only have fifteen . professor b: e grad h: one of them 's phd d: yeah . grad h: details . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . grad h: but fifteen , not sixteen . phd a: well if there 's a way to say time to sort of solve each of these f those professor b: yeah . phd a: so suppose you can get an array in because there 's some person at berkeley who 's interested and has some equipment , uh , and suppose we can as we save it we can , you know , transfer it off to some other place that that holds this this data , who 's interested , and even if icsi it itself is n't . um , and it it seems like as long as we can time align the beginning , do we need to mix it with the rest ? i do n't know . you know ? the professor b: yeah . so i think you 'd need a separate a separate set up phd a: so yeah . professor b: and the assumption that you could time align the two . phd a: i mean it 's just it 's worth considering as sort of grad h: and y it 'd certainly gets skew . phd a: once you make the up front investment { comment } and can sort of save it out each time , and and not have to worry about the disk space factor , then it mi it might be worth having the data . professor b: i 'm not so much worried about disk space actually . i mentioned that , b as a practical matter , grad h: just professor b: but the real issue is that , uh , there is no way to do a recording extended to what we have now with low skew . so you would have a t completely separate set up , phd a: right . professor b: which would mean that the sampling times and so forth would be all over the place compared to this . so it would depend on the level of pr processing you were doing later , but if you 're d i the kind of person who 's doing array processing you actually care about funny little times . and and so you actually wou would want to have a completely different set up than we have , phd a: i see . professor b: one that would go up to thirty - two channels or something . phd a: mmm . professor b: so basically grad h: or a hundred thirty - two . professor b: or a hun yeah . so , i 'm kinda skeptical , but um i think that phd a: mmm . professor b: so , uh , i do n't think we can share the resource in that way . but what we could do is if there was someone else who 's interested they could have a separate set up which they would n't be trying to synch with ours which might be useful for for them . phd a: right , i mean at least they 'd have the data and the transcripts , professor b: and then we can offer up the room , phd a: and right . professor b: yeah , we can o offer the meetings , and the physical space , and and yeah , the transcripts , and so on . phd a: ok . right , i mean , just it 'd be nice if we have more information on the same data . you know , and professor b: yeah . phd a: but it 's if it 's impossible or if it 's a lot of effort then you have to just balance the two , professor b: well i thi phd a: so professor b: yeah , the thing will be , u u in in again , in talking to these other people to see what you know , what what we can do . phd a: right . professor b: uh , we 'll see . phd e: is there an interest in getting video recordings for these meetings ? professor b: right , so we have we phd e: i mean grad h: yes , absolutely . but it 's exactly the same problem , that you have an infrastructure problem , you have a problem with people not wanting to be video taped , and you have the problem that no one who 's currently involved in the project is really hot to do it . phd e: hmm . so there 's not enough interest to overcome all of grad h: mm - hmm . phd a: right . internally , but i know there is interest from other places that are interested in looking at meeting data and having the video . so it 's just postdoc g: yeah , w although i m i i have to u u mention the human subjects problems , that i increase with video . phd a: right , that 's true . professor b: yeah , so it 's , uh , people people getting shy about it . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: there 's this human subjects problem . there 's the fact that then um , if i i i 've heard comments about this before , `` why do n't you just put on a video camera ? `` but you know , it 's sort of like saying , `` uh , well we 're primarily interested in in some dialogue things , uh , but , uh , why do n't we just throw a microphone out there . `` i mean , the thing is , once you actually have serious interest in any of these things then you actually have to put a lot of effort in . phd e: mmm . professor b: and , uh , you really want to do it right . grad h: i know . yep . professor b: so i think nist or ldc , or somebody like that i think is much better shape to do all that . we there will be other meeting recordings . we wo n't be the only place doing meeting recordings . we are doing what we 're doing . postdoc g: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh , hopefully it 'll be useful . postdoc g: i it it occurred to me , has don signed a human subject 's form ? grad h: oh ! probably not . postdoc g: a permission form ? grad h: has don have you s did you si i thought you did actually . grad f: i was yeah , i was i was here i was here before once . grad h: did n't you read a digit string ? phd e: you were here at a meeting before . postdoc g: you were here at a meeting before . phd e: yeah . grad f: so . grad h: yeah , and you and you signed a form . grad f: oh , i think so . postdoc g: did you sign a form ? grad f: did i ? i do n't know . grad h: i 'm pretty sure . well i 'll i 'll get another one before the end of the meeting . postdoc g: ok . professor b: yeah . grad h: thank you . grad f: yeah . postdoc g: ok . professor b: yeah . postdoc g: you do n't you do n't have to leave for it . professor b: yeah , we we postdoc g: but i just grad f: can i verbally consent ? postdoc g: you know . grad h: well i ca n't , i 'm wired in . professor b: we we we we do n't , uh phd a: yeah . you 're on recor you 're being recorded postdoc g: o grad f: yeah . phd a: and professor b: we do n't we do n't perform electro - shock during these meetings , grad f: i do n't care . you can do whatever you want with it . professor b: and phd e: usually . grad f: that 's fine . professor b: yeah . ok . uh , transcriptions . postdoc g: transcriptions , ok . um , i thought about there are maybe three aspects of this . so first of all , um , i 've got eight transcribers . uh , seven of them are linguists . one of them is a graduate student in psychology . um , each i gave each of them , uh , their own data set . two of them have already finished the data sets . and the meetings run , you know , let 's say an hour . sometimes as man much as an hour and a half . phd e: how big is the data set ? postdoc g: oh , it 's what i mean is one meeting . phd e: ah , ok . postdoc g: each each person got their own meeting . i did n't want to have any conflicts of , you know , of of when to stop transcribing this one or so i wanted to keep it clear whose data were whose , and and and so phd e: uh - huh . postdoc g: and , uh , meetings , you know , i think that they 're they go as long as a almost two hours in some in some cases . so , you know , that means you know , if we 've got two already finished and they 're working on uh , right now all eight of them have differe uh , uh , additional data sets . that means potentially as many as ten might be finished by the end of the month . phd e: wow . postdoc g: hope so . but the pre - segmentation really helps a huge amount . phd c: ok . postdoc g: and , uh , also dan ellis 's innovation of the , uh the multi - channel to here really helped a r a lot in terms of clearing clearing up h hearings that involve overlaps . but , um , just out of curiosity i asked one of them how long it was taking her , one of these two who has already finished her data set . she said it takes about , uh , sixty minutes transcription for every five minutes of real time . so it 's about twelve to one , which is what we were thinking . grad h: or yep . postdoc g: it 's well in the range . grad h: it 's pretty good . postdoc g: ok . uh , these still , when they 're finished , um , that means that they 're finished with their pass through . they still need to be edited and all but but it 's word level , speaker change , the things that were mentioned . ok , now i wanted to mention the , um , teleconference i had with , uh , jonathan fiscus . we spoke for an hour and a half and , um , had an awful lot of things in common . grad h: hmm . postdoc g: he , um , um , he in indicated to me that they 've that he 's been , uh , looking , uh , uh , spending a lot of time with i 'm not quite sure the connection , but spending a lot of time with the atlas system . and i guess that i mean , i i need to read up on that . and there 's a web site that has lots of papers . but it looks to me like that 's the name that has developed for the system that bird and liberman developed { comment } for the annotated graphs approach . grad h: mm - hmm . postdoc g: so what he wants me to do and what we what we will do and uh , is to provide them with the u already transcribed meeting for him to be able to experiment with in this atlas system . and they do have some sort of software , at least that 's my impression , related to atlas and that he wants to experiment with taking our data and putting them in that format , and see how that works out . i i i explained to him in in detail the , uh , conventions that we 're using here in this in this word level transcript . and , um , you know , i i explained , you know , the reasons that that we were not coding more elaborately and and the focus on reliability . he expressed a lot of interest in reliability . it 's like he 's he 's really up on these things . he 's he 's very um , independently he asked , `` well what about reliability ? `` so , he 's interested in the consistency of the encoding and that sort of thing . ok , um phd a: sorry , can you explain what the atlas i 'm not familiar with this atlas system . postdoc g: well , you know , at this point i think uh , well adam 's read more in more detail than i have on this . i need to acquaint myself more with it . but , um , there there is a way of viewing uh , whenever you have coding categories , um , and you 're dealing with uh , a taxonomy , then you can have branches that that have alternative , uh , choices that you could use for each each of them . and it just ends up looking like a graphical representation . grad h: is is is atlas the his annotated transcription graph stuff ? i do n't remember the acronym . the the one the what i think you 're referring to , they they have this concept of an an annotated transcription graph representation . phd a: oh . oh . postdoc g: yeah . grad h: and that 's basically what i based the format that i did i based it on their work almost directly , in combination with the tei stuff . and so it 's very , very similar . and so it 's it 's a data representation and a set of tools for manipulating transcription graphs of various types . phd e: is this the project that 's sort of , uh , between , uh , nist and and , uh , a couple of other places ? postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd e: the the postdoc g: including ldc . phd e: yeah , postdoc g: i think so . grad h: yep . phd e: y right , ok . postdoc g: mm - hmm . then there 's their web site that has lots of papers . and i looked through them and they mainly had to do with this , um , this , uh , tree structure , uh , annotated tree diagram thing . phd a: mmm . postdoc g: so , um , um and , you know , in terms of like the conventions that i 'm a that i 've adopted , it there there 's no conflict at all . grad h: right . postdoc g: and he was , you know , very interested . and , `` oh , and how 'd you handle this ? `` and i said , `` well , you know , this way `` and and and we had a really nice conversation . um , ok , now i also wanted to say in a different a different direction is , brian kingsbury . so , um , i corresponded briefly with him . i , uh , c i he still has an account here . i told him he could ssh on and use multi - trans , and have a look at the already done , uh , transcription . and he and he did . and what he said was that , um , what they 'll be providing is will not be as fine grained in terms of the time information . and , um , that 's , uh you know , i need to get back to him and and , uh , you know , explore that a little bit more and see what they 'll be giving us in specific , phd a: hmm . phd e: the p the people postdoc g: but i just have n't had time yet . phd e: the the folks that they 're , uh , subcontracting out the transcription to , are they like court reporters postdoc g: sorry , what ? yes . phd e: or postdoc g: apparently well , i get the sense they 're kind of like that . like it 's like a pool of of somewhat uh , secretarial i do n't think that they 're court reporters . i do n't think they have the special keyboards and that and that type of training . phd e: mm - hmm . postdoc g: i i get the sense they 're more secretarial . and that , um , uh , what they 're doing is giving them phd e: hmm . like medical transcriptionist type people grad h: nu - it 's mostly it 's for their speech recognition products , phd e: but are n't they 're postdoc g: yep . grad h: that they 've hired these people to do . phd e: oh , so they 're hiring them , they 're coming . it 's not a service they send the tapes out to . grad h: well they they do send it out but my understanding is that that 's all this company does is transcriptions for ibm for their speech product . phd e: ah ! oh . ok . i gotcha . grad h: so most of it 's viavoice , people reading their training material for that . phd e: i see . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd e: i see . postdoc g: up to now it 's been monologues , uh , as far my understood . grad h: yep , exactly . postdoc g: and and what they 're doing is phd e: mm - hmm . grad h: yep . postdoc g: brian himself downloaded so so , um , adam sent them a cd and brian himself downloaded uh , cuz , you know , i mean , we wanted to have it so that they were in familiar f terms with what they wanted to do . he downloaded from the cd onto audio tapes . and apparently he did it one channel per audio tape . so each of these people is transcribing from one channel . grad h: right . phd e: oh . postdoc g: and then what he 's going to do is check it , a before they go be beyond the first one . check it and , you know , adjust it , and all that . phd e: so each person gets one of these channels grad h: right . professor b: so if they hear something off in the distance they do n't they just go phd e: ok . postdoc g: i i do n't know . grad h: well , but that 's ok , because , you know , you 'll do all them and then combine them . phd e: but there could be problems , right ? with that . postdoc g: i have t i , you know i phd c: yep . postdoc g: i think it would be difficult to do it that way . i really phd a: yeah . phd e: well if you 're tran if you got that channel right there postdoc g: d uh , in my case phd c: yeah . grad h: no , no . we 're talking about close talking , not the not the desktop . phd d: no , close talk . professor b: are you ? postdoc g: yes . well i th i think so . grad h: i sure hope so . it 'd be really foolish to do otherwise . postdoc g: yeah , i i would think that it would be kind of hard to come out with yeah . phd a: i i think it 's sort of hard just playing the you know , just having played the individual files . and i i mean , i know you . i know what your voice sounds like . i 'm sort of familiar with phd c: yeah . phd a: uh , it 's pretty hard to follow , especially grad h: one side . phd a: there are a lot of words that are so reduced phonetically that make sense when you know what the person was saying before . postdoc g: i agree . phd c: yeah . phd e: yeah , that 's phd a: uh , it sort of depends where you are in postdoc g: and especially since a lot of these phd d: yeah . grad h: but i mean we had this we 've had this discussion many times . postdoc g: yeah , we have . grad h: and the answer is we do n't actually know the answer because we have n't tried both ways . postdoc g: well , except i can say that my transcribers use the mixed signal mostly grad h: so . mm - hmm . phd a: mm - hmm . phd e: right . postdoc g: unless there 's a huge disparity in terms of the volume on on the mix . in which case , you know , they they would n't be able to catch anything except the prominent { comment } channel , grad h: right . phd c: yeah . postdoc g: then they 'll switch between . grad h: well i think that that might change if you wanted really fine time markings . postdoc g: but but really well , ok . grad h: so . professor b: but they 're not giving f really fine time markings . postdoc g: yeah , well phd a: actually , are th so are they giving any time markings ? grad h: right . phd a: in other words , if postdoc g: well , i have to ask him . phd a: yeah . postdoc g: and that 's that 's my email to him . that needs to be forthcoming . phd a: cuz ok . postdoc g: but but the , uh i did want to say that it 's hard to follow one channel of a conversation even if you know the people , and if you 're dealing furthermore with highly abstract network concepts you 've never heard of so , you know , one of these people was was transcribing the , uh , networks group talk and she said , `` i do n't really know what a lot of these abbreviations are , `` `` but i just put them in parentheses cuz that 's the that 's the convention and i just `` cuz you know , if you do n't know grad h: oh , i 'd be curious to to look at that . phd e: just out of curiosity , i mean grad h: they also all have h heavy accents . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . postdoc g: yeah . grad h: the networks group meetings are all phd e: given all of the effort that is going on here in transcribing why do we have i b m doing it ? why not just do it all ourselves ? professor b: um , it 's historical . i mean , uh , some point ago we thought that uh , it `` boy , we 'd really have to ramp up to do that `` , phd c: uh - huh . phd d: no , just professor b: you know , like we just did , and , um , here 's , uh , a a , uh , collaborating institution that 's volunteered to do it . phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: so , that was a contribution they could make . uh in terms of time , money , you know ? phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: and it still might be a good thing phd e: i 'm just wondering now phd a: actu yeah , mar - mari asked me the same question as sort of professor b: but phd e: well , i 'm i 'm wondering now if it 's grad h: well we can talk about more details later . phd a: um , you know , yeah , whether to professor b: yeah . yeah . yeah , so . phd e: hmm . professor b: we 'll see . i mean , i think , th you know , they they they 've proceeded along a bit . let 's see what comes out of it , and and , uh , you know , have some more discussions with them . postdoc g: mm - hmm . it 's very a real benefit having brian involved because of his knowledge of what the how the data need to be used and so what 's useful to have in the format . grad h: yeah . professor b: mm - hmm . yeah . grad h: so , um , liz , with with the sri recognizer , { comment } can it make use of some time marks ? phd a: ok , so this is a , um , grad h: i i guess i do n't know what that means . phd a: and actually i should say this is what don has b uh , he 's already been really helpful in , uh , chopping up these so so first of all you um , i mean , for the sri front - end , we really need to chop things up into pieces that are f not too huge . um , but second of all , uh in general because some of these channels , i 'd say , like , i do n't know , at least half of them probably { comment } on average are g are ha are have a lot of cross - ta sorry , some of the segments have a lot of cross - talk . um , it 's good to get sort of short segments if you 're gon na do recognition , especially forced alignment . so , uh , don has been taking a first stab actually using jane 's first the fir the meeting that jane transcribed which we did have some problems with , and thilo , uh , i think told me why this was , but that people were switching microphones around { comment } in the very beginning , so the sri re phd c: no , th yeah . no . they they were not switching them but what they were they were adjusting them , phd a: and they they were not phd c: so . grad f: mmm . grad h: adjusting . oh . phd a: yeah . phd c: and aft after a minute or so it 's it 's way better . phd a: so we have to sort of normalize { comment } the front - end and so forth , and have these small segments . phd c: so yep . phd a: so we 've taken that and chopped it into pieces based always on your your , um , cuts that you made on the mixed signal . and so that every every speaker has the same cuts . and if they have speech in it we run it through . and if they do n't have speech in it we do n't run it through . and we base that knowledge on the transcription . grad h: on just on the marks . right ? phd a: um , the problem is if we have no time marks , then for forced alignment we actually do n't know where you know , in the signal the transcriber heard that word . and so grad h: oh , i see , phd a: i mean , if if it 's a whole conversation and we get a long , uh , you know , par paragraph of of talk , grad h: it 's for the length . i see . phd a: uh , i do n't know how they do this . um , we actually do n't know which piece goes where . grad h: i understand . phd a: and , um , i think with phd e: well you would need to like a forced alignment before you did the chopping , right ? phd a: no , we used the fact that so when jane transcribes them the way she has transcribers doing this , whether it 's with the pre - segmentation or not , grad h: it 's already chunked . phd a: they have a chunk and then they transcribes { comment } the words in the chunk . and maybe they choose the chunk or now they use a pre - segmentation and then correct it if necessary . but there 's first a chunk and then a transcription . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: then a chunk , then a transcription . that 's great , cuz the recognizer can grad h: uh , it 's all pretty good sized for the recognizer also . phd a: right , and it it helps that it 's made based on sort of heuristics and human ear i think . postdoc g: good . oh good . phd a: th - but there 's going to be a real problem , uh , even if we chop up based on speech silence these , uh , the transcripts from i b m , we do n't actually know where the words were , which segment they belonged to . grad h: right . phd a: so that 's sort of what i 'm worried about right now . phd e: why not do a a a forced alignment ? grad h: that 's what she 's saying , is that you ca n't . phd a: if you do a forced alignment on something really grad h: got uh six sixty minutes of phd a: well even if you do it on something really long you need to know you can always chop it up but you need to have a reference of which words went with which , uh , chop . postdoc g: now was n't i thought that one of the proposals was that ibm was going to do an initial forced alignment , phd a: so postdoc g: after they grad h: yeah , but professor b: i i think that they are , grad h: we 'll have to talk to brian . professor b: um , yeah , i 'm sure they will and so we we have to have a dialogue with them about it . phd a: yeah . professor b: i mean , it sounds like liz has some concerns phd a: maybe they have some you know , maybe actually there is some , even if they 're not fine grained , maybe the transcribers professor b: and phd a: uh , i do n't know , maybe it 's saved out in pieces or or something . that would help . postdoc g: yeah . phd a: but , uh , it 's just an unknown right now . postdoc g: yeah . i i need to to write to him . phd a: so . postdoc g: i just you know , it 's like i got over - taxed with the timing . phd a: right . but the it is true that the segments i have n't tried the segments that thilo gave you but the segments that in your first meeting are great . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: i mean , that 's that 's a good length . postdoc g: a good size . good . phd a: right , cuz postdoc g: well , i i was thinking it would be fun to to uh , uh , if if you would n't mind , { comment } to give us a pre - segmentation . phd a: y yeah . phd c: yeah . postdoc g: uh , maybe you have one already of that first m of the meeting that uh , the first transcribed meeting , the one that i transcribed . phd c: um , i 'm sure i have some postdoc g: do you have a could you generate a pre - segmentation ? grad h: february sixteenth i think . phd c: but but that 's the one where we 're , um , trai training on , so that 's a little bit grad h: oh . postdoc g: oh , i see . phd c: it 's a little bit at odd to postdoc g: oh , darn . of course , of course , of course . yeah , ok . phd c: yeah . phd a: and actually as you get transcripts just , um , for new meetings , { comment } um , we can try postdoc g: uh - huh . phd a: i mean , the the more data we have to try the the alignments on , um , the better . so it 'd be good for just to know as transcriptions are coming through the pipeline from the transcribers , just to sort of we 're playing around with sort of uh , parameters f on the recognizer , postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: cuz that would be helpful . especially as you get , en more voices . postdoc g: excellent , good . phd a: the first meeting had i think just four people , phd c: four speakers , yeah . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . postdoc g: yeah , liz and i spoke d w at some length on tuesday and and i and i was planning to do just a a preliminary look over of the two that are finished and then give them to you . phd a: oh , great , great . postdoc g: yeah . phd a: so . professor b: that 's great . i guess the other thing , i i ca n't remember if we discussed this in the meeting but , uh , i know you and i talked about this a little bit , there was an issue of , uh , suppose we get in the , uh , i guess it 's enviable position although maybe it 's just saying where the weak link is in the chain , uh , where we we , uh uh , we have all the data transcribed and we have these transcribers and we were we 're the we 're still a bit slow on feeding at that point we 've caught up and the the the , uh , the weak link is is recording meetings . ok , um , two questions come , is you know what how how do we uh , it 's not really a problem at the moment cuz we have n't reached that point but how do we step out the recorded meetings ? and the other one is , um , uh , is there some good use that we can make of the transcribers to do other things ? so , um , i i ca n't remember how much we talked about this in this meeting but there was grad h: we had spoken with them about it . postdoc g: and there is one use that that also we discussed which was when , uh , dave finishes the and maybe it 's already finished the the modification to multi - trans which will allow fine grained encoding of overlaps . uh , then it would be very these people would be very good to shift over to finer grain encoding of overlaps . it 's just a matter of , you know , providing so if right now you have two overlapping segments in the same time bin , well with with the improvement in the database in in the , uh , sorry , in the interface , it 'd be possible to , um , you know , just do a click and drag thing , and get the uh , the specific place of each of those , the time tag associated with the beginning and end of of each segment . professor b: right , so i think we talking about three level three things . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: one one was uh , we had s had some discussion in the past about some very high level labelings , postdoc g: yeah . the types of overlaps professor b: types of overlaps , and so forth that that someone could do . second was , uh , somewhat lower level postdoc g: mm - hmm . professor b: just doing these more precise timings . and the third one is is , uh , just a completely wild hair brained idea that i have which is that , um , if , uh if we have time and people are able to do it , to take some subset of the data and do some very fine grained analysis of the speech . for instance , uh , marking in some overlapping potentially overlapping fashion , uh , the value of , uh , ar articulatory features . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: you know , just sort of say , ok , it 's voiced from here to here , there 's it 's nasal from here to here , and so forth . um , as opposed to doing phonetic uh , you know , phonemic and the phonetic analysis , grad h: professor b: and , uh , assuming , uh , articulatory feature values for those those things . um , obviously that 's extremely time - consuming . uh phd e: that would be really valuable i think . professor b: but , uh , we could do it on some small subset . postdoc g: also if you 're dealing with consonants that would be easier than vowels , would n't it ? i mean , i would think that that , uh , being able to code that there 's a a fricative extending from here to here would be a lot easier than classifying precisely which vowel that was . grad h: which one . phd a: mmm . professor b: mm - hmm . postdoc g: i think vowels vowels are i think harder . professor b: well , yeah , phd c: yeah . professor b: but i think also it 's just the issue that that when you look at the u w u u when you look at switchboard for instance very close up there are places where whether it 's a consonant or a vowel you still have trouble calling it a particular phone postdoc g: mm - hmm . professor b: at that point postdoc g: mm - hmm , ok . grad h: yeah , but but just saying what the professor b: because it 's you know , there 's this movement from here to here postdoc g: yeah , i 'm sure . uh , yeah , i i know . phd a: right . professor b: and and and it 's so i phd e: you 're saying r sort of remove the high level constraints and go bottom - up . professor b: yeah , describe describe it . phd e: then just say grad h: yep , just features . phd a: mmm . professor b: now i 'm suggesting articulatory features . maybe there 's there 's even a better way to do it but it but but that 's , you know , sort of a traditional way of describing these things , phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: um , and uh , i mean , actually this might be a g neat thing to talk to postdoc g: that 's nice . phd e: acoustic features versus psychological categories . professor b: sort of . i mean , it 's still phd e: yeah . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: some sort of categories but but something that allows for overlapping change of these things and then this would give some more ground work for people who were building statistical models that allowed for overlapping changes , different timing changes as opposed to just `` click , you 're now in this state , which corresponds to this speech sound `` and so on . phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: so this is like gestural uh , these g professor b: yeah , something like that . phd a: right . ok . professor b: i mean , actually if we get into that it might be good to , uh , uh , haul john ohala into this phd a: right . professor b: and ask his his views on it i think . grad h: yeah . phd a: but is is the goal there to have this on meeting data , postdoc g: excellent . phd a: like so that you can do far field studies { comment } of those gestures or um , or is it because you think there 's a different kind of actual production in meetings { comment } that people use ? or ? professor b: no , i think i think it 's for for for that purpose i 'm just viewing meetings as being a a neat way to get people talking naturally . and then you have i and then and then it 's natural in all senses , phd e: just a source of data ? phd a: i see . professor b: in the sense that you have microphones that are at a distance that you know , one might have , and you have the close mikes , and you have people talking naturally . and the overlap is just indicative of the fact that people are talking naturally , phd a: uh - huh . phd d: yeah . phd a: right . professor b: right ? so so i think that given that it 's that kind of corpus , phd d: yeah . professor b: if it 's gon na be a very useful corpus um , if you say w ok , we 've limited the use by some of our , uh , uh , censored choices , we do n't have the video , we do n't and so forth , but there 's a lot of use that we could make of it by expanding the annotation choices . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh , most of the things we 've talked about have been fairly high level , and being kind of a bottom - up person i thought maybe we 'd , do some of the others . grad h: hmm . phd a: right . yeah , that would be good . postdoc g: it 's a nice balance . professor b: yeah . postdoc g: that would be really nice to offer those things with that wide range . phd a: right . professor b: yeah and hopefully someone would make use of it . postdoc g: really nice . professor b: i mean , people did n't postdoc g: yeah . professor b: uh , i mean , people have made a lot of use of of timit and , uh w due to its markings , and then the switchboard transcription thing , well i think has been very useful for a lot of people . grad h: right . phd a: that 's true . professor b: so phd a: i guess i wanted to , um , sort of make a pitch for trying to collect more meetings . postdoc g: cool . phd a: um , professor b: yeah . phd a: i actually i talked to chuck fillmore and i think they 've what , vehemently said no before but this time he was n't vehement and he said you know , `` well , liz , come to the meeting tomorrow professor b: yeah . phd a: and try to convince people `` . so i 'm gon na try . go to their meeting tomorrow and see if we can try , uh , to convince them postdoc g: mm - hmm . good . professor b: cuz they have something like three or four different meetings , phd a: because they have and they have very interesting meetings from the point of view of a very different type of of talk than we have here professor b: right ? postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd d: talk phd a: and definitely than the front end meeting , probably . um phd e: you mean in terms of the topic topics ? phd a: well , yes and in terms of the the fact that they 're describing abstract things and , uh , just dialogue - wise , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: right . phd e: mm - hmm . phd a: um , so i 'll try . and then the other thing is , i do n't know if this is at all useful , but i asked lila if i can maybe go around and talk to the different departments in this building to see if there 's any groups that , for a free lunch , professor b: yes . phd a: if we can still offer that , might be willing professor b: great . grad h: you mean non - icsi ? phd a: non - icsi , non - academic , grad h: yeah , i guess you you can try phd a: you know , like government people , grad h: but phd a: i do n't know . grad h: the problem is so much of their stuff is confidential . phd a: so . phd d: yeah . postdoc g: yeah . grad h: it would be very hard for them . phd a: is is it in these departments ? phd d: yeah . postdoc g: also it does seem like it takes us way out of the demographic . i mean , it seems like we we had this idea before of having like linguistics students brought down for free lunches grad h: well , tha i think that 's her point . postdoc g: and that 's a nice idea . phd a: right , and then we could also we might try advertising again because i think it 'd be good if if we can get a few different sort of non - internal types of meetings postdoc g: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd a: and just also more data . so . phd e: does does john ohala have weekly phonetics lab meetings ? postdoc g: mm - hmm . grad h: and i think , uh , if we could get phd a: so i actually wrote to him and he answered , `` great , that sounds really interesting `` . but i never heard back because we did n't actually advertise openly . we a i mean w i told i d asked him privately . um , and it is a little bit of a trek for campus folks . postdoc g: mm - hmm . grad h: yeah . you might give them a free lunch . phd a: um , so it 's still worthwhile . grad h: but , um , it would be nice if we got someone other than me who knew how to set it up and could do the recording phd a: so grad h: so u i did n't have to do it each time . phd a: exactly , and and postdoc g: yeah . that 's right . phd a: and i was thinking professor b: he - he 's supposed he 's supposed to be trained to do it . phd a: yeah . plus we could also get you know , a s a student . grad h: ok , next week you 're going to do it all . phd d: yeah . phd a: and i 'm willing to try to learn . i mean , i 'm i would do my best . um , the other thing is that there was a number of things at the transcription side that , um , transcribers can do , like dialogue act tagging , grad h: it 's not that hard . phd a: disfluency tagging , um , things that are in the speech that are actually something we 're y { comment } working on for language modeling . and mari 's also interested in it , andreas as well . so if you wan na process a utterance and the first thing they say is , `` well `` , and that `` well `` is coded as some kind of interrupt u tag . uh , and things like that , um , th postdoc g: of course some of that can be li done lexically . phd a: a lot of it can be done postdoc g: and i also they are doing disfluency tagging to some degree already . phd a: great . so a a lot of this kind of postdoc g: yeah . phd a: i think there 's a second pass and i do n't really know what would exist in it . but there 's definitely a second pass worth doing to maybe encode some kinds of , you know , is it a question or not , postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: or um , that maybe these transcribers could do . so yeah . postdoc g: they 'd be really good . they 're they 're very they 're very consistent . phd a: that 'd be great . professor b: mm - hmm . postdoc g: uh , i wanted to whi while we 're uh , so , to return just briefly to this question of more meeting data , um i have two questions . one of them is , um , jerry feldman 's group , they they , uh , are they i know that they recorded one meeting . are they willing ? professor b: i think they 're open to it . i think , you know , all these things are phd a: oh , yeah . professor b: i think there 's we should go beyond , uh , icsi but , i mean , there 's a lot of stuff happening at icsi that we 're not getting now that we could . phd a: oh , that we could . professor b: so it 's just postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: ok . i thought that all these people had sort of said `` no `` twice already . professor b: yeah . so the phd a: if that 's not the case then professor b: no , no . no . so th there was the thing in fillmore 's group but even there he had n't what he 'd said `` no `` to was for the main meeting . but they have several smaller meetings a week , grad h: so . professor b: and , uh , the notion was raised before that that could happen . and it just , you know it just did n't come together phd a: just ok . phd e: well , and and the other thing too is when they originally said `` no `` they did n't know about this post - editing capability thing . professor b: but phd a: right . postdoc g: oh . professor b: yeah . yeah . phd a: right . that was a big fear . phd e: so . postdoc g: that 's important . professor b: yeah , so i mean there 's possibilities there . i think jerry 's group , yes . phd a: ok . professor b: uh , there 's there 's , uh , the networks group , uh , i do n't do they still meeting regularly or ? grad h: well , i do n't know if they meet regularly or not but they are no longer recording . professor b: but i mean , ha ha have they said they do n't want to anymore or ? grad h: um , ugh , what was his name ? professor b: uh , i i postdoc g: joe sokol ? grad h: yeah . professor b: yeah . grad h: when with him gone , it sorta trickled off . professor b: ok , so they 're down to three or four people grad h: they and they stopped yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: but the thing is three or four people is ok . grad h: yep . postdoc g: we might be able to get the administration grad h: well he was sort of my contact , so i just need to find out who 's running it now . professor b: ok . grad h: so . postdoc g: i see that lila has a luncheon meeting in here periodically . phd a: yeah , i mean , it one thing that would be nice postdoc g: i do n't know phd a: and this it sounds bizarre but , i 'd really like to look at to get some meetings where there 's a little bit of heated discussion , like ar arguments and or emotion , and things like that . and so i was thinking if there 's any like berkeley political groups or something . i mean , that 'd be perfect . some group , `` yes , we must `` grad h: who 's willing to get recorded and distributed ? phd a: well , you know , something phd c: yeah . grad f: yeah , i do n't think the more political argumentative ones would be willing to phd a: um professor b: yeah , with with with potential use from the defense department . phd d: yeah . phd a: well , ok . professor b: yeah . phd a: no , but maybe stu student , uh , groups or , um , film - makers , or som something a little bit colorful . phd c: yeah . grad f: yeah . exactly . postdoc g: yeah . grad h: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah . yeah , th there 's a problem there in terms of , uh , the um commercial value of of st uh , postdoc g: yeah , of course there is this problem though , that if we give them the chance to excise later we e might end up with like five minutes out of a f { comment } of m one hour phd d: film - maker . grad h: of beeps , phd c: yeah . yeah . grad h: yeah . phd a: and i do n't mean that they 're angry phd d: is postdoc g: of { comment } yes . really . phd a: but just something with some more variation in prosodic contours and so forth would be neat . so if anyone has ideas , i 'm willing to do the leg work to go try to talk to people but i do n't really know which groups are worth pursuing . postdoc g: well there was this k p f a grad h: no that 's postdoc g: but ok . grad h: legal . postdoc g: ok , ok . professor b: it it it it turned out to be a bit of a problem . phd a: or postdoc g: and i had one other one other aspect of this which is , um , uh , uh , jonathan fiscus expressed primar uh y a major interest in having meetings which were all english speakers . now he was n't trying to shape us in terms of what we gather professor b: mm - hmm . postdoc g: but that 's what he wanted me to show him . so i 'm giving him our , um our initial meeting because he asked for all english . and i think we do n't have a lot of all english meetings right now . professor b: of all all nat all native speakers . phd e: did he mean , uh did he mean and non - british ? grad h: well phd c: the all native . postdoc g: that 's what i mean , yeah . grad h: well if he meant and non - british i think we have zero . postdoc g: he does n't care . no . eh , well , british is ok . phd e: he said british was ok ? postdoc g: but but sure , sure , sure . professor b: why ? grad h: british is english ? phd c: postdoc g: yeah . different varieties of english . phd c: ooo , ooo . professor b: well , i do n't i do n't i do n't think if he did n't say that postdoc g: native speaking . native speaking english . grad h: i bet he meant native speaking american . postdoc g: yes . professor b: i bet he did . phd c: american english ? postdoc g: oh , really . grad h: so , why would he care ? phd e: knowing the application phd a: that 's professor b: i remember wh i i remember a study phd a: i was thinking , knowing the , uh , n national institute of standards , it is all professor b: i remember a study that bbn did where they trained on this was in wall street journal days or something , they trained on american english and then they tested on , uh , different native speakers from different areas . and , uh , uh , the worst match was people whose native tongue was mandarin chinese . the second worst was british english . postdoc g: that 's funny . professor b: so h it 's , you know , t postdoc g: alright . and so that would make sense . professor b: the the the german was much better , phd c: ooo , ooo . postdoc g: i did n't have the context of that . professor b: it was swiss w yeah , so it 's so i think , you know , if he 's if he 's thinking in terms of recognition kind of technology i i i think he would probably want , uh american english , postdoc g: all america , ok . grad h: i wonder if we have any . professor b: yeah . it it yeah , unless we 're gon na train with a whole bunch of postdoc g: i think that the feldman 's meetings tend to be more that way , are n't they ? i mean , i sort of feel like they have professor b: i think so , grad h: maybe . phd a: yeah , professor b: yeah . grad h: maybe . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . phd d: mmm . grad h: and maybe there are a few of with us where it was professor b: yeah . grad h: you know , dan was n't there and before jose started coming , professor b: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad h: and professor b: it 's pretty tough , uh , this group . yeah . grad h: yeah . phd c: mmm . professor b: so , uh , what about what about people who involved in some artistic endeavor ? phd d: yeah . professor b: i mean , film - making or something like that . phd a: exactly , that 's what i was professor b: you 'd think like they would be phd d: a film - maker . phd a: something where there there is actually discussion where there 's no right or wrong answer but but it 's a matter of opinion kind of thing . uh , anyway , if you if you have ideas postdoc g: it 's be fun . grad h: rasta . plp . rasta . plp . phd d: yes . grad f: we can just discu we can just have a political discussion one day . phd a: yeah , we could phd e: a any department that calls itself science phd d: department . grad f: uh , i could make that pretty phd d: yeah . grad h: well , like computer science . phd d: computer sci grad h: that postdoc g: we could get julia child . i know . phd a: i 'm i 'm actually serious grad h: that 's phd a: because , uh , you know , we have the set up here grad h: got a ticket . professor b: yeah , i know you are . phd a: and and that that has a chance to give us some very interesting fun data . so if anyone has ideas , phd d: yeah . phd a: if you know any groups that are m you know , professor b: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad h: well i had asked some some of the students at the business school . phd a: student groups c like clubs , things like that . grad f: i know grad h: i could phd a: not not professor b: put a little ad up saying , `` come here and argue `` . phd a: yeah . `` if you 're really angry at someone use our conference room . `` grad h: the business school . uh , the business school might be good . i actually spoke with some students up there phd a: oh , ok . grad h: and they they they expressed willingness back when they thought they would be doing more stuff with speech . phd a: really . grad h: but when they lost interest in speech they also stopped answering my email about other stuff , so . phd d: hmm . phd a: or people who are really h professor b: they could have a discussion about te grad f: i grad h: we should probably bleep that out . professor b: about about tax cuts or something . grad f: i heard that at cal tech they have a special room someone said that they had a special room to get all your frustrations out that you can go to and like throw things and break things . professor b: yeah , now that is not actually what we grad f: so we can like post a grad h: th - that 's not what we want . grad f: no , not to that extent phd a: well , far field mikes can pick up where they threw stuff on the wall . grad f: but , um . yeah . professor b: yeah , but we do n't want them to throw the far field mikes is the thing . phd a: oh . yeah , right . grad h: that 's right . phd d: the fa grad f: yeah . phd d: grad h: `` please throw everything in that direction . `` professor b: yeah . anyway . grad h: padded cell . postdoc g: it 'd be fun to get like a a p visit from the grad h: there was a dorm room at tech that , uh , someone had coated the walls and the ceiling , and , uh , the floor with mattresses . grad f: mmm . grad h: the entire room . professor b: i had as my fourth thing here processing of wave forms . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: what did we mean by that ? remember @ @ ? grad h: uh , liz wanted to talk about methods of improving accuracy by doing pre - processing . postdoc g: pre - processing . phd a: well i think that that was just sort of i i already asked thilo professor b: oh , you already did that . phd a: but that , um , it would be helpful if i can stay in the loop somehow with , um , people who are doing any kind of post - processing , whether it 's to separate speakers or to improve the signal - to - noise ratio , or both , um , that we can sort of try out as we 're running recognition . um , so , i is that who else is work i guess dan ellis and you phd c: dan , yeah . professor b: yeah , and dave uh gel - gelbart again , grad h: yep . phd a: and dave . phd c: yep . phd a: ok . phd d: yeah . professor b: he 's he 's interested in in fact we 're look starting to look at some echo cancellation kind of things . phd a: ok . professor b: which uh grad h: i am not sure how much that 's an issue with the close talking mikes , professor b: hmm ? grad h: but who knows ? professor b: well , let 's w i is n't that what what you want phd a: i do n't know . i 'm bad professor b: t no , so no , i w wha what you what you want when you 're saying improving the wave form you want the close talking microphone to be better . phd a: it 's like { comment } like professor b: right ? grad h: right . professor b: and the question is to w to what extent is it getting hurt by , uh by any room acoustics or is it just uh , given that it 's close it 's not a problem ? phd a: it does n't seem like big room acoustics problems to my ear professor b: uh phd a: but i 'm not an expert . it seems like a problem with cross - talk . professor b: ok , so it 's phd c: yeah . grad h: e i bet with the lapel mike there 's plenty , uh , room acoustic phd a: that that may be true . grad h: but i i think the rest is cross - talk . phd a: but i do n't know how good it can get either by those the those methods grad h: yeah . phd a: that 's true . professor b: ok . grad h: so i i think it 's just , phd a: oh , i do n't know . grad h: yeah , what you said , cross - talk . phd a: all i meant is just that as sort of as this pipeline of research is going on we 're also experimenting with different asr , uh , techniques . grad h: mm - hmm . phd a: and so it 'd be w good to know about it . phd e: so the problem is like , uh , on the microphone of somebody who 's not talking they 're picking up signals from other people { comment } and that 's causing problems ? phd a: r right , although if they 're not talking , using the the inhouse transcriptions , were sort of o k because the t no one transcribed any words there and we throw it out . phd e: mm - hmm . phd a: but if they 're talking at all and they 're not talking the whole time , so you get some speech and then a `` mm - hmm `` , and some more speech , so that whole thing is one chunk . and the person in the middle who said only a little bit is picking up the speech around it , that 's where it 's a big problem . postdoc g: you know , this does like seem like it would relate to some of what jose 's been working on as well , the encoding of the phd d: yeah . postdoc g: and and he also , he was phd a: the energy , phd d: yeah , phd a: right . exactly . phd d: energy . postdoc g: i was t i was trying to remember , you have this interface where you i you ha you showed us one time on your laptop that you you had different visual displays as speech and nonspeech events . phd d: yeah , c yeah . may i i only display the different colors for the different situation . but , eh , for me and for my problems , is uh is enough . because , eh , it 's possible , eh , eh , in a simp sample view , uh , to , nnn , to compare with c with the segment , the the kind of assessment what happened with the the different parameters . and only with a different bands of color for the , uh , few situation , eh , i consider for acoustic event is enough to @ @ . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd d: i i i see that , eh , you are considering now , eh , a very sophisticated , eh , ehm , eh , @ @ { comment } set of , eh , graphic s eh , eh , ehm , si symbols to to transcribe . no ? because , uh , before , you you are talking about the the possibility to include in the transcriber program eh , um , a set of symbols , of graphic symbol to t to mark the different situations during the transcription postdoc g: oh , i w uh - huh . phd d: during the transcription . no ? postdoc g: well , you 're saying so , uh , symbols for differences between laugh , and sigh , and and and slam the door and stuff ? phd d: yeah . yeah , yeah . the s the symbols , you you talk of before . postdoc g: or some other kind of thing ? phd d: no ? to to mark postdoc g: well , i would n't say symbols so much . the the main change that i that i see in the interface is is just that we 'll be able to more finely c uh , time things . phd d: yeah . yeah . postdoc g: but i i also st there was another aspect of your work that i was thinking about when i was talking to you phd a: hmm . postdoc g: which is that it sounded to me , liz , as though you and , uh , maybe i did n't q understand this , but it sounded to me as though part of the analysis that you 're doing involves taking segments which are of a particular type and putting them together . phd d: yeah . postdoc g: and th so if you have like a p a s you know , speech from one speaker , then you cut out the part that 's not that speaker , phd a: mm - hmm . postdoc g: and you combine segments from that same speaker to { comment } and run them through the recognizer . is that right ? phd a: well we try to find as close of start and end time of as we can to the speech from an individual speaker , postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: because then we we 're more guaranteed that the recognizer will for the forced alignment which is just to give us the time boundaries , because from those time boundaries then the plan is to compute prosodic features . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: and the sort of more space you have that is n't the thing you 're trying to align the more errors we have . um , so , you know , that that it would help to have either pre - processing of a signal that creates very good signal - to - noise ratio , postdoc g: mm - hmm . cuz i ok . phd a: which i do n't know how possible this is for the lapel , um , or to have very to have closer , um , time you know , synch times , basically , around the speech that gets transcribed in it , or both . and it 's just sort of a open world right now of exploring that . so i just wanted to see , you know , on the transcribing end from here things look good . uh , the ibm one is more it 's an open question right now . and then the issue of like global processing of some signal and then , you know , before we chop it up is is yet another way we can improve things in that . phd e: what about increasing the flexibility of the alignment ? postdoc g: ok . phd e: do you remember that thing that michael finka did ? phd a: mm - hmm . phd e: that experiment he did a while back ? phd a: right . you can , um the problem is just that the acoustic when the signal - to - noise ratio is too low , um , you you 'll get , a uh an alignment with the wrong duration pattern or it phd e: oh , so that 's the problem , is the the signal - to - noise ratio . phd a: yeah . it 's not the fact that you have like i mean , what he did is allow you to have , uh , words that were in another segment move over to the at the edges of of segmentations . phd e: mm - hmm . or even words inserted that were n't were n't there . phd a: right , things things near the boundaries where if you got your alignment wrong phd e: mm - hmm . phd a: cuz what they had done there is align and then chop . phd e: mm - hmm . phd a: um , and this problem is a little bit j more global . it 's that there are problems even in inside the alignments , uh , because of the fact that there 's enough acoustic signal there t for the recognizer to to eat , as part of a word . and it tends to do that . s so , uh , phd d: yeah . phd a: but we probably will have to do something like that in addition . anyway . so , yeah , bottom bottom line is just i wanted to make sure i can be aware of whoever 's working on these signal - processing techniques for , uh , detecting energies , phd d: yeah . phd a: because that that 'll really help us . professor b: o k , uh tea has started out there i suggest we c run through our digits and , postdoc g: ok . professor b: uh , so , ok , we 're done .

use of dissimilar microphones adds an extra , unwanted variable to individual speaker recordings . similarly , differences in the type of recording equipment used and the manner in which microphones are worn by speakers causes problems for the transcription effort .

what did the team say about incorporating video recordings </s> professor b: are we on ? we 're on . ok . phd e: is it on ? phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah . ok , phd d: one , two u ok . phd a: why is it so cold in here ? professor b: so , uh , we have n't sent around the agenda . so , i uh , any agenda items anybody has , wants to talk about , what 's going on ? postdoc g: i c i could talk about the meeting . grad h: does everyone has everyone met don ? postdoc g: yeah . professor b: it 's on ? phd c: now , yeah . phd d: yeah . grad h: yeah ? ok . phd d: yeah . grad f: hello . professor b: ok , agenda item one , phd d: we went grad f: yeah . professor b: introduce don . ok , we did that . uh phd a: well , i had a just a quick question but i know there was discussion of it at a previous meeting that i missed , but just about the the wish list item of getting good quality close - talking mikes on every speaker . professor b: ok , so let 's let 's so let 's just do agenda building right now . ok , so let 's talk about that a bit . phd a: i mean , that was professor b: uh , @ @ tuss close talking mikes , better quality . ok , uh , we can talk about that . you were gon na starting to say something ? postdoc g: well , you you , um , already know about the meeting { comment } that 's coming up and i do n't know if if this is appropriate for this . i do n't know . i mean , maybe maybe it 's something we should handle outside of the meeting . professor b: no , no , that 's ok . phd e: what meeting ? professor b: we can so we can ta so n nist is nist folks are coming by next week postdoc g: ok . professor b: and so we can talk about that . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: i think phd e: who 's coming ? professor b: uh , uh , john fiscus postdoc g: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh , i think george doddington will be around as well . uh , ok , so we can talk about that . uh , i guess just hear about how things are going with , uh , uh , the transcriptions . that 's right . postdoc g: sure . mm - hmm . professor b: that would sorta be an obvious thing to discuss . um , an - anything else , uh , strike anybody ? phd a: uh , we started running recognition on one conversation but it 's the r is n't working yet . so , but if anyone has professor b: ok . phd e: wha phd a: uh , the main thing would be if anyone has , um , knowledge about ways to , uh , post - process the wave forms that would give us better recognition , that would be helpful to know about . professor b: um , grad h: dome yeah , it sounds like a topic of conversation . professor b: yeah , so , uh phd e: what about , uh , is there anything new with the speech , nonspeech stuff ? phd c: yeah , we 're working more on it but , it 's not finished . professor b: ok . alright , that seems like a a good collection of things . and we 'll undoubtedly think of other things . postdoc g: i had thought under my topic that i would mention the , uh , four items that i i , uh , put out for being on the agenda f on that meeting , which includes like the pre - segmentation and the and the developments in multitrans . professor b: oh , under the nist meeting . postdoc g: yeah , under the nist thing . professor b: ok . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: alright , why do n't we start off with this , u u i guess the order we brought them up seems fine . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: um , so , better quality close talking mikes . so the one issue was that the the , uh , lapel mike , uh , is n't as good as you would like . and so , uh , it it 'd be better if we had close talking mikes for everybody . right ? phd a: ri - um , professor b: is that is that basically the point ? phd a: yeah , the and actually in addition to that , that the the close talking mikes are worn in such a way as to best capture the signal . and the reason here is just that for the people doing work not on microphones but on sort of like dialogue and so forth , uh or and even on prosody , which don is gon na be working on soon , it adds this extra , you know , vari variable for each speaker to to deal with when the microphones are n't similar . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: right . phd a: so and i also talked to mari this morning and she also had a strong preference for doing that . and in fact she said that that 's useful for them to know in starting to collect their data too . professor b: mm - hmm . right , so one th grad h: well , so professor b: uh , well one thing i was gon na say was that , um , i we could get more , uh , of the head mounted microphones even beyond the number of radio channels we have because i think whether it 's radio or wire is probably second - order . and the main thing is having the microphone close to you , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: u although , not too close . grad h: right , so , uh , actually the way jose is wearing his is is c correct . phd d: yeah . is grad h: the good way . so you want to professor b: yeah . phd d: i it 's not cor it 's correct ? professor b: is . grad h: yeah , th that 's good . professor b: yes . phd d: yeah . grad h: so it 's towards the corner of your mouth so that breath sounds do n't get on it . phd d: yeah . yeah . grad h: and then just sort of about , uh , a thumb or a thumb and a half away from your from your mouth . phd d: yeah . yeah . uh , yeah . professor b: right . phd a: but we have more than one type of professor b: how am i d phd a: i mean , for instance , you 're phd c: yeah . grad h: and this one is n't very adjustable , phd d: yeah . grad h: so this about as good as i can get phd a: right . phd d: yeah . grad h: cuz it 's a fixed boom . phd d: is fixed . yeah . phd a: but if we could actually standardize , you know , the the microphones , uh , as much as possible that would be really helpful . professor b: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . grad h: mm - hmm . professor b: well , i mean it does n't hurt to have a few extra microphones around , phd d: yeah . professor b: so why do n't we just go out and and get an order of of if this microphone seems ok to people , uh , i 'd just get a half dozen of these things . grad h: well the onl the only problem with that is right now , um , some of the jimlets are n't working . the little the boxes under the table . professor b: yeah . grad h: and so , w uh , i 've only been able to find three jacks that are working . professor b: yeah . phd e: can we get these , wireless ? grad h: so professor b: no , but my point is phd a: but y we could just record these signals separately and time align them with the start of the meeting . professor b: r r right grad h: i i 'm not sure i 'm follow . say that again ? professor b: right now , we 've got , uh , two microphones in the room , that are not quote - unquote standard . so why do n't we replace those grad h: ok , just two . professor b: well , however many we can plug in . you know , if we can plug in three , let 's plug in three . grad h: ok . phd d: mm - yeah . professor b: also what we 've talked before about getting another , uh , radio , grad h: right . professor b: and so then that would be , you know , three more . grad h: right . ok . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: so , uh so we should go out to our full complement of whatever we can do , but have them all be the same mike . i think the original reason that it was done the other way was because , it w it was sort of an experimental thing and i do n't think anybody knew whether people would rather have more variety or or , uh , more uniformity , phd a: right . professor b: but @ @ { comment } but uh , sounds sounds fine . grad h: sounds like uniformity wins . phd d: right . phd a: well , for short term research it 's just there 's just so much effort that would have to be done up front n uh , professor b: yeah . grad h: well phd a: so yeah , uniformity would be great . grad h: yeah . phd e: is it because you you 're saying the for dialogue purposes , so that means that the transcribers are having trouble with those mikes ? is that what you mean ? phd a: well jane would know more about the transcribers . phd e: or ? postdoc g: and that 's true . i mean , i we did discuss this . uh , and and grad h: yep . couple times . postdoc g: a couple times , so , um , yeah , the transcribers notice and in fact there 're some where , um ugh well , i mean there 's it 's the double thing . it 's the equipment and also how it 's worn . phd a: right . postdoc g: and he 's always they always they just rave about how wonderful adam 's adam 's channel is . grad h: what can i say . postdoc g: and then , phd a: so does the recognizer . professor b: yeah . postdoc g: yeah . grad h: oh , really ? yeah , i 'm not surprised . i mean , `` baaah ! `` phd a: even if if you 're talking on someone else 's mike it 's still you w postdoc g: yeah , but i mean it 's not just that , it 's also you know you professor b: yeah . phd c: yeah . postdoc g: it 's also like n no breathing , no you know , it 's like it 's it 's um , professor b: yeah . postdoc g: it 's really it makes a big difference from the transcribers ' point of view grad h: yeah , it 's an advantage when you do n't breath . postdoc g: and also from the research s point of view . phd a: right . professor b: when we 're doing grad h: yeah , i think that the point of doing the close talking mike is to get a good quality signal . we 're not doing research on close talking mikes . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: yeah . grad h: so we might as well get it as uniform as we can . phd a: right . professor b: now , this is locking the barn door after the horse was stolen . we do have thirty hours , of of speech , which is done this way . grad h: yeah . phd a: that 's ok . professor b: but but , uh , yeah , for future ones we can get it a bit more uniform . phd a: great , great . grad h: so i think just do a field trip at some point . professor b: yeah , probably yeah , to the store we talked about and that grad h: yep . postdoc g: and there was some talk about , uh , maybe the h headphones that are uncomfortable for people , to grad h: yep . so , as as i said , we 'll do a field trip and see if we can get all of the same mike that 's more comfortable than than these things , which i think are horrible . postdoc g: ok . good . grad h: so . phd a: great , thank you very much . phd e: especially for people with big heads . phd a: it 's makes our job a lot easier . professor b: ok . ok . grad h: and , you know , we 're researchers , so we all have big heads . professor b: ok . phd e: yeah . professor b: yeah . uh , ok , second item was the , uh , nist visit , and what 's going on there . postdoc g: yeah . ok , so , um , uh , jonathan fiscus is coming on the second of february and i 've spoken with , uh , u u a lot of people here , not everyone . um , and , um , he expressed an interest in seeing the room and in , um , seeing a demonstration of the modified multitrans , which i 'll mention in a second , and also , um , he was interested in the pre - segmentation and then he 's also interested in the transcription conventions . grad h: mm - hmm . postdoc g: and , um so , um , it seems to me in terms of like , um , i i it wou you know , ok . so the room , it 's things like the audio and c and audi audio and acoustic acoustic properties of the room and how it how the recordings are done , and that kind of thing . and , um . ok , in terms of the multi - trans , well that that 's being modified by dave gelbart to , uh , handle multi - channel recording . grad h: oh , i should 've i was just thinking i should have invited him to this meeting . i forgot to do it . postdoc g: yeah , ok . grad h: so . phd c: yeah . postdoc g: yeah . well that 's ok , i mean we 'll grad h: sorry . postdoc g: yeah , and it 's t and it looks really great . he he has a prototype . i i , uh , @ @ { comment } did n't did n't see it , uh , yesterday but i 'm going to see it today . and , uh , that 's that will enable us to do nice um , tight time marking of the beginning and ending of overlapping segments . at present it 's not possible with limitations of of the , uh , original design of the software . and um . so , i do n't know . in terms of , like , pre - segmentation , that that continues to be , um , a terrific asset to the to the transcribers . do you i know that you 're al also supplementing it further . do you want to mention something about that c thilo , or ? phd c: um , yeah . what what i 'm doing right now is i 'm trying to include some information about which channel , uh , there 's some speech in . but that 's not working at the moment . i 'm just trying to do this by comparing energies , uh normalizing energies and comparing energies of the different channels . postdoc g: ok . phd c: and so to to give the transcribers some information in which channel there 's there 's speech in addition to to the thing we we did now which is just , uh , speech - nonspeech detection on the mixed file . so i 'm i 'm relying on on the segmentation of the mixed file postdoc g: this is good . mm - hmm . phd c: but i 'm i 'm trying to subdivide the speech portions into different portions if there is some activity in in different channels . postdoc g: excellent , so this 'd be like w e providing also speaker id potentially . phd c: but yeah . yeah . postdoc g: wonderful . wonderful . professor b: um , something i guess i did n't put in the list but , uh , on that , uh , same day later on in or maybe it 's no , actually it 's this week , uh , dave gelbart and i will be , uh , visiting with john canny who i you know , is a cs professor , postdoc g: oh . professor b: who 's interested in ar in array microphones . grad h: hcc . oh , he 's doing array mikes . professor b: yeah . and so we wan na see what commonality there is here . you know , maybe they 'd wan na stick an array mike here when we 're doing things phd e: that would be cool . grad h: yeah , that would be neat . professor b: or or maybe it 's it 's not a specific array microphone they want phd d: yeah . phd e: that would be really neat . professor b: but they might wan na just , uh , you know , you could imagine them taking the four signals from these these table mikes and trying to do something with them um , i also had a discussion so , w uh , we 'll be over over there talking with him , um , after class on friday . um , we 'll let you know what what goes with that . also had a completely unrelated thing . i had a , uh , discussion today with , uh , birger kollmeier who 's a , uh , a german , uh , scientist who 's got a fair sized group doing a range of things . it 's sort of auditory related , largely for hearing aids and so on . but but , uh , he does stuff with auditory models and he 's very interested in directionality , and location , and and , uh , head models and microphone things . and so , uh , he 's he and possibly a student , there w there 's , uh , a student of his who gave a talk here last year , uh , may come here , uh , in the fall for , uh , sort of a five month , uh , sabbatical . so he might be around . get him to give some talks and so on . but anyway , he might be interested in this stuff . phd d: mm - hmm . phd e: that that reminds me , i had a a thought of an interesting project that somebody could try to do with the data from here , either using , you know , the the mikes on the table or using signal energies from the head worn mikes , phd d: mm - hmm . phd e: and that is to try to construct a map of where people were sitting , professor b: right . phd d: uh - huh . phd e: uh , based on grad h: well dan dan had worked on that . dan ellis , phd d: uh - huh . phd e: oh , did he ? oh , that 's interesting . grad h: yeah . so that that 's the cross - correlation stuff , was was doing b beam - forming . phd d: yeah . phd e: and so you could plot out who was sitting next to who professor b: a little bit , phd e: and professor b: i mean , he did n't do a very extreme thing but just it was just sort of phd d: yeah , yeah . grad h: no , he did start on it . professor b: e e given that , the the the block of wood with the the the two mikes { comment } on either side , grad h: mm - hmm . professor b: if i 'm speaking , or if you 're speaking , or someone over there is speaking , it if you look at cross - correlation functions , you end up with a phd d: yeah . professor b: if if someone who was on the axis between the two is talking , then you you get a big peak there . and if if someone 's talking on on on , uh , one side or the other , it goes the other way . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: and then , uh , it it it even looks different if th t if the two two people on either side are talking than if one in the middle . it it actually looks somewhat different , so . phd e: hmm . well i was just thinking , you know , as i was sitting here next to thilo that um , when he 's talking , my mike probably picks it up better than your guys 's mikes . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd e: so if you just looked at grad h: oh , that 's another cl cue , phd d: yeah . phd e: yeah , { comment } looked at { comment } the energy on my mike and you could get an idea about who 's closest to who . grad h: that 's true . phd d: yeah . professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . professor b: right . phd d: yeah . phd e: and grad h: or who talks the loudest . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah , well you have to the appropriate normalizations are tricky , and and and are probably the key . grad h: yeah . phd c: yeah . phd a: you just search for adam 's voice on each individual microphone , you pretty much know where everybody 's sitting . phd c: yeah . professor b: yeah . we 've switched positions recently so you ca n't anyway . ok . so those are just a little couple of news items . postdoc g: can i ask one thing ? uh , so , um , jonathan fiscus expressed an interest in , uh , microphone arrays . professor b: yes . postdoc g: um , is there i mean b and i also want to say , his he ca n't stay all day . he needs to uh , leave for uh , from here to make a two forty - five flight grad h: oh , so just morning . postdoc g: from from oakland . professor b: right . postdoc g: so it makes the scheduling a little bit tight but do you think that , um that , uh , i john canny should be involved in this somehow or not . i have no idea . professor b: probably not but i i 'll i 'll i 'll know better after i see him this friday what what kind of level he wants to get involved . postdoc g: it 's premature . fine . good . professor b: uh , he might be excited to and it might be very appropriate for him to , uh , or he might have no interest whatsoever . i i just really do n't know . postdoc g: ok . grad h: is he involved in ach ! { comment } i 'm blanking on the name of the project . nist has has done a big meeting room instrumented meeting room with video and microphone arrays , and very elaborate software . is is he the one working on that ? professor b: well that 's what they 're starting up . grad h: ok . professor b: yeah . no , i mean , that 's what all this is about . they they have n't done it yet . they wanted to do it grad h: ok . i had read some papers that looked like they had already done some work . professor b: uh , well i think they 've instrumented a room but i do n't think they they have n't started recordings yet . they do n't have the t the transcription standards . they do n't have the phd e: are they going to do video as well ? grad h: hmm . professor b: yeah . i think . phd e: hmm . professor b: i think they are . grad h: oh , cuz what what i had read was , uh , they had a uh very large amount of software infrastructure for coordinating all this , both in terms of recording and also live room where you 're interacting the participants are interacting with the computer , and with the video , and lots of other stuff . professor b: well , i 'm i 'm i 'm not sure . grad h: so . professor b: all all i know is that they 've been talking to me about a project that they 're going to start up recording people meet in meetings . grad h: ok . well professor b: and , uh , it is related to ours . they were interested in ours . they wanted to get some uniformity with us , uh , about the transcriptions and so on . grad h: alright . professor b: and one one notable difference u u actually i ca n't remember whether they were going to routinely collect video or not , but one one , uh , difference from the audio side was that they are interested in using array mikes . so , um , i mean , i 'll just tell you the party line on that . the reason i did n't go for that here was because , uh , the focus , uh , both of my interest and of adam 's interest was uh , in impromptu situations . and we 're not recording a bunch of impromptu situations but that 's because it 's different to get data for research than to actually apply it . phd d: hmm . professor b: and so , uh , for scientific reasons we thought it was good to instrument this room as we wanted it . but the thing we ultimately wanted to aim at was a situation where you were talking with , uh , one or more other people i uh , in in an p impromptu way , where you did n't did n't actually know what the situation was going to be . and therefore it would not it 'd be highly unlikely that room would be outfitted with with some very carefully designed array of microphones . um , so it was only for that reason . it was just , you know , yet another piece of research and it seemed like we had enough troubles just phd e: so there 's no like portable array of mikes ? professor b: no . so there 's there 's uh , there 's a whole range of things there 's a whole array of things , that people do on this . phd d: hmm . professor b: so , um , the , uh the big arrays , uh , places , uh , like uh , rutgers , and brown , and other other places , uh , they have , uh , big arrays with , i do n't know , a hundred hundred mikes or something . grad h: xerox . professor b: and so there 's a wall of mikes . and you get really , really good beam - forming { comment } with that sort of thing . phd e: wow . professor b: and it 's and , um , in fact at one point we had a a proposal in with rutgers where we were gon na do some of the sort of per channel signal - processing and they were gon na do the multi - channel stuff , but it d it d we ended up not doing it . but phd e: i 've seen demonstrations of the microphone arrays . it 's amazing how how they can cut out noise . professor b: yeah , it 's r it 's really neat stuff . grad h: and then they have little ones too professor b: and then they had the little ones , yeah . grad h: but i mean but they do n't have our block of wood , right ? professor b: yeah , our block of wood is unique . phd d: yeah . professor b: but the but the no , there are these commercial things now you can buy that have four mikes or something phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and and , uh , um so , yeah , there 's there 's there 's a range of things that people do . phd e: huh . professor b: um , so if we connected up with somebody who was interested in doing that sort of thing that 's that 's a good thing to do . i mean , whenever i 've described this to other people who are interested on the with the acoustic side that 's invariably the question they ask . just like someone who is interested in the general dialogue thing will always ask `` um , are you recording video ? `` phd a: right , professor b: um , right ? phd a: right . professor b: and and the acoustic people will always say , `` well are you doing , uh , uh , array microphones ? `` so it 's it 's a good thing to do , but it does n't solve the problem of how do you solve things when there 's one mike or at best two mikes in in this imagined pda that we have . so maybe maybe we 'll do some more of it . postdoc g: well one thing i i mean , i do n't know . i mean , i know that having an array of i mean , i would imagine it would be more expensive to have a an array of microphones . but could n't you kind of approximate the natural sis situation by just shutting off uh , channels when you 're later on ? i mean , it seems like if the microphones do n't effect each other then could n't you just , you know , record them with an array and then just not use all the data ? grad h: it 's it 's just a lot of infrastructure that for our particular purpose we felt we did n't need to set up . postdoc g: i see . phd a: yeah . postdoc g: fine . professor b: yeah , if ninety - nine percent of what you 're doing is c is shutting off most of the mikes , then going through the postdoc g: ok . professor b: but if you get somebody who 's who who has that as a primary interest then that put then that drives it in that direction . grad h: that 's right , i mean if someone if someone came in and said we really want to do it , phd a: right . grad h: i mean , we do n't care . that would be fine , phd e: so to save that data you you have to have one channel recording per mike in the array ? grad h: buy more disk space . professor b: well , uh , at some level at some level . phd e: is that grad h: i usually do a mix . professor b: but then , you know , there 's it there 's phd e: what you save , i mean , if you 're going to do research with it . yeah professor b: there 's i i do n't know what they 're going to do and i do n't know how big their array is . obviously if you were gon na save all of those channels for later research you 'd use up a lot of space . phd e: yeah . professor b: and , th phd e: hmm . grad h: well their software infrastructure had a very elaborate design for plugging in filters , and mixers , and all sorts of processing . so that they can do stuff in real time and not save out each channel individually . professor b: yeah . yeah . phd e: mmm . grad h: so it was , uh phd d: yeah . professor b: but i mean , uh , for optimum flexibility later you 'd want to save each channel . but i think in practical situations you would have some engine of some sort doing some processing to reduce this to some to the equivalent of a single microphone that was very directional . phd e: uh , oh , ok , i see . professor b: right ? phd a: i mean , it seems professor b: so phd e: sort of saving the result of the beam - forming . phd d: yeah . phd a: it seems to me that there 's you know , there are good political reasons for for doing this , just getting the data , because there 's a number of sites like right now sri is probably gon na invest a lot of internal funding into recording meetings also , which is good , um , but they 'll be recording with video and they 'll be you know , it 'd be nice if we can have at least , uh , make use of the data that we 're recording as we go since it 's sort of this is the first site that has really collected these really impromptu meetings , um , and just have this other information available . so , if we can get the investment in just for the infra infrastructure and then , i do n't know , save it out or have whoever 's interested save that data out , transfer it there , it 'd be g it 'd be good to have have the recording . i think . grad h: you mean to to actually get a microphone array and do that ? phd a: well , if even if we 're not grad h: and video and phd a: i 'm not sure about video . that 's sort of an video has a little different nature since right n right now we 're all being recorded but we 're not being taped . um , but it definitely in the case of microphone arrays , since if there was a community interested in this , then grad h: well , but i think we need a researcher here who 's interested in it . to push it along . professor b: see the problem is it it took , uh , uh , it took at least six months for dan to get together the hardware and the software , and debug stuff in in the microphones , and in the boxes . and it was a really big deal . and so i think we could get a microphone array in here pretty easily and , uh , have it mixed to to one channel of some sort . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: but , e i think for i mean , how we 're gon na decide for for maximum flexibility later you really do n't want to end up with just one channel that 's pointed in the direction of the the the p the person with the maximum energy or something like that . i mean , you you want actually to you want actually to have multiple channels being recorded so that you can and to do that , it we 're going to end up greatly increasing the disk space that we use up , we also only have boards that will take up to sixteen channels and in this meeting , we 've got eight people and and six mikes . and there we 're already using fourteen . grad h: and we actually only have fifteen . professor b: e grad h: one of them 's phd d: yeah . grad h: details . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . grad h: but fifteen , not sixteen . phd a: well if there 's a way to say time to sort of solve each of these f those professor b: yeah . phd a: so suppose you can get an array in because there 's some person at berkeley who 's interested and has some equipment , uh , and suppose we can as we save it we can , you know , transfer it off to some other place that that holds this this data , who 's interested , and even if icsi it itself is n't . um , and it it seems like as long as we can time align the beginning , do we need to mix it with the rest ? i do n't know . you know ? the professor b: yeah . so i think you 'd need a separate a separate set up phd a: so yeah . professor b: and the assumption that you could time align the two . phd a: i mean it 's just it 's worth considering as sort of grad h: and y it 'd certainly gets skew . phd a: once you make the up front investment { comment } and can sort of save it out each time , and and not have to worry about the disk space factor , then it mi it might be worth having the data . professor b: i 'm not so much worried about disk space actually . i mentioned that , b as a practical matter , grad h: just professor b: but the real issue is that , uh , there is no way to do a recording extended to what we have now with low skew . so you would have a t completely separate set up , phd a: right . professor b: which would mean that the sampling times and so forth would be all over the place compared to this . so it would depend on the level of pr processing you were doing later , but if you 're d i the kind of person who 's doing array processing you actually care about funny little times . and and so you actually wou would want to have a completely different set up than we have , phd a: i see . professor b: one that would go up to thirty - two channels or something . phd a: mmm . professor b: so basically grad h: or a hundred thirty - two . professor b: or a hun yeah . so , i 'm kinda skeptical , but um i think that phd a: mmm . professor b: so , uh , i do n't think we can share the resource in that way . but what we could do is if there was someone else who 's interested they could have a separate set up which they would n't be trying to synch with ours which might be useful for for them . phd a: right , i mean at least they 'd have the data and the transcripts , professor b: and then we can offer up the room , phd a: and right . professor b: yeah , we can o offer the meetings , and the physical space , and and yeah , the transcripts , and so on . phd a: ok . right , i mean , just it 'd be nice if we have more information on the same data . you know , and professor b: yeah . phd a: but it 's if it 's impossible or if it 's a lot of effort then you have to just balance the two , professor b: well i thi phd a: so professor b: yeah , the thing will be , u u in in again , in talking to these other people to see what you know , what what we can do . phd a: right . professor b: uh , we 'll see . phd e: is there an interest in getting video recordings for these meetings ? professor b: right , so we have we phd e: i mean grad h: yes , absolutely . but it 's exactly the same problem , that you have an infrastructure problem , you have a problem with people not wanting to be video taped , and you have the problem that no one who 's currently involved in the project is really hot to do it . phd e: hmm . so there 's not enough interest to overcome all of grad h: mm - hmm . phd a: right . internally , but i know there is interest from other places that are interested in looking at meeting data and having the video . so it 's just postdoc g: yeah , w although i m i i have to u u mention the human subjects problems , that i increase with video . phd a: right , that 's true . professor b: yeah , so it 's , uh , people people getting shy about it . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: there 's this human subjects problem . there 's the fact that then um , if i i i 've heard comments about this before , `` why do n't you just put on a video camera ? `` but you know , it 's sort of like saying , `` uh , well we 're primarily interested in in some dialogue things , uh , but , uh , why do n't we just throw a microphone out there . `` i mean , the thing is , once you actually have serious interest in any of these things then you actually have to put a lot of effort in . phd e: mmm . professor b: and , uh , you really want to do it right . grad h: i know . yep . professor b: so i think nist or ldc , or somebody like that i think is much better shape to do all that . we there will be other meeting recordings . we wo n't be the only place doing meeting recordings . we are doing what we 're doing . postdoc g: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh , hopefully it 'll be useful . postdoc g: i it it occurred to me , has don signed a human subject 's form ? grad h: oh ! probably not . postdoc g: a permission form ? grad h: has don have you s did you si i thought you did actually . grad f: i was yeah , i was i was here i was here before once . grad h: did n't you read a digit string ? phd e: you were here at a meeting before . postdoc g: you were here at a meeting before . phd e: yeah . grad f: so . grad h: yeah , and you and you signed a form . grad f: oh , i think so . postdoc g: did you sign a form ? grad f: did i ? i do n't know . grad h: i 'm pretty sure . well i 'll i 'll get another one before the end of the meeting . postdoc g: ok . professor b: yeah . grad h: thank you . grad f: yeah . postdoc g: ok . professor b: yeah . postdoc g: you do n't you do n't have to leave for it . professor b: yeah , we we postdoc g: but i just grad f: can i verbally consent ? postdoc g: you know . grad h: well i ca n't , i 'm wired in . professor b: we we we we do n't , uh phd a: yeah . you 're on recor you 're being recorded postdoc g: o grad f: yeah . phd a: and professor b: we do n't we do n't perform electro - shock during these meetings , grad f: i do n't care . you can do whatever you want with it . professor b: and phd e: usually . grad f: that 's fine . professor b: yeah . ok . uh , transcriptions . postdoc g: transcriptions , ok . um , i thought about there are maybe three aspects of this . so first of all , um , i 've got eight transcribers . uh , seven of them are linguists . one of them is a graduate student in psychology . um , each i gave each of them , uh , their own data set . two of them have already finished the data sets . and the meetings run , you know , let 's say an hour . sometimes as man much as an hour and a half . phd e: how big is the data set ? postdoc g: oh , it 's what i mean is one meeting . phd e: ah , ok . postdoc g: each each person got their own meeting . i did n't want to have any conflicts of , you know , of of when to stop transcribing this one or so i wanted to keep it clear whose data were whose , and and and so phd e: uh - huh . postdoc g: and , uh , meetings , you know , i think that they 're they go as long as a almost two hours in some in some cases . so , you know , that means you know , if we 've got two already finished and they 're working on uh , right now all eight of them have differe uh , uh , additional data sets . that means potentially as many as ten might be finished by the end of the month . phd e: wow . postdoc g: hope so . but the pre - segmentation really helps a huge amount . phd c: ok . postdoc g: and , uh , also dan ellis 's innovation of the , uh the multi - channel to here really helped a r a lot in terms of clearing clearing up h hearings that involve overlaps . but , um , just out of curiosity i asked one of them how long it was taking her , one of these two who has already finished her data set . she said it takes about , uh , sixty minutes transcription for every five minutes of real time . so it 's about twelve to one , which is what we were thinking . grad h: or yep . postdoc g: it 's well in the range . grad h: it 's pretty good . postdoc g: ok . uh , these still , when they 're finished , um , that means that they 're finished with their pass through . they still need to be edited and all but but it 's word level , speaker change , the things that were mentioned . ok , now i wanted to mention the , um , teleconference i had with , uh , jonathan fiscus . we spoke for an hour and a half and , um , had an awful lot of things in common . grad h: hmm . postdoc g: he , um , um , he in indicated to me that they 've that he 's been , uh , looking , uh , uh , spending a lot of time with i 'm not quite sure the connection , but spending a lot of time with the atlas system . and i guess that i mean , i i need to read up on that . and there 's a web site that has lots of papers . but it looks to me like that 's the name that has developed for the system that bird and liberman developed { comment } for the annotated graphs approach . grad h: mm - hmm . postdoc g: so what he wants me to do and what we what we will do and uh , is to provide them with the u already transcribed meeting for him to be able to experiment with in this atlas system . and they do have some sort of software , at least that 's my impression , related to atlas and that he wants to experiment with taking our data and putting them in that format , and see how that works out . i i i explained to him in in detail the , uh , conventions that we 're using here in this in this word level transcript . and , um , you know , i i explained , you know , the reasons that that we were not coding more elaborately and and the focus on reliability . he expressed a lot of interest in reliability . it 's like he 's he 's really up on these things . he 's he 's very um , independently he asked , `` well what about reliability ? `` so , he 's interested in the consistency of the encoding and that sort of thing . ok , um phd a: sorry , can you explain what the atlas i 'm not familiar with this atlas system . postdoc g: well , you know , at this point i think uh , well adam 's read more in more detail than i have on this . i need to acquaint myself more with it . but , um , there there is a way of viewing uh , whenever you have coding categories , um , and you 're dealing with uh , a taxonomy , then you can have branches that that have alternative , uh , choices that you could use for each each of them . and it just ends up looking like a graphical representation . grad h: is is is atlas the his annotated transcription graph stuff ? i do n't remember the acronym . the the one the what i think you 're referring to , they they have this concept of an an annotated transcription graph representation . phd a: oh . oh . postdoc g: yeah . grad h: and that 's basically what i based the format that i did i based it on their work almost directly , in combination with the tei stuff . and so it 's very , very similar . and so it 's it 's a data representation and a set of tools for manipulating transcription graphs of various types . phd e: is this the project that 's sort of , uh , between , uh , nist and and , uh , a couple of other places ? postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd e: the the postdoc g: including ldc . phd e: yeah , postdoc g: i think so . grad h: yep . phd e: y right , ok . postdoc g: mm - hmm . then there 's their web site that has lots of papers . and i looked through them and they mainly had to do with this , um , this , uh , tree structure , uh , annotated tree diagram thing . phd a: mmm . postdoc g: so , um , um and , you know , in terms of like the conventions that i 'm a that i 've adopted , it there there 's no conflict at all . grad h: right . postdoc g: and he was , you know , very interested . and , `` oh , and how 'd you handle this ? `` and i said , `` well , you know , this way `` and and and we had a really nice conversation . um , ok , now i also wanted to say in a different a different direction is , brian kingsbury . so , um , i corresponded briefly with him . i , uh , c i he still has an account here . i told him he could ssh on and use multi - trans , and have a look at the already done , uh , transcription . and he and he did . and what he said was that , um , what they 'll be providing is will not be as fine grained in terms of the time information . and , um , that 's , uh you know , i need to get back to him and and , uh , you know , explore that a little bit more and see what they 'll be giving us in specific , phd a: hmm . phd e: the p the people postdoc g: but i just have n't had time yet . phd e: the the folks that they 're , uh , subcontracting out the transcription to , are they like court reporters postdoc g: sorry , what ? yes . phd e: or postdoc g: apparently well , i get the sense they 're kind of like that . like it 's like a pool of of somewhat uh , secretarial i do n't think that they 're court reporters . i do n't think they have the special keyboards and that and that type of training . phd e: mm - hmm . postdoc g: i i get the sense they 're more secretarial . and that , um , uh , what they 're doing is giving them phd e: hmm . like medical transcriptionist type people grad h: nu - it 's mostly it 's for their speech recognition products , phd e: but are n't they 're postdoc g: yep . grad h: that they 've hired these people to do . phd e: oh , so they 're hiring them , they 're coming . it 's not a service they send the tapes out to . grad h: well they they do send it out but my understanding is that that 's all this company does is transcriptions for ibm for their speech product . phd e: ah ! oh . ok . i gotcha . grad h: so most of it 's viavoice , people reading their training material for that . phd e: i see . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd e: i see . postdoc g: up to now it 's been monologues , uh , as far my understood . grad h: yep , exactly . postdoc g: and and what they 're doing is phd e: mm - hmm . grad h: yep . postdoc g: brian himself downloaded so so , um , adam sent them a cd and brian himself downloaded uh , cuz , you know , i mean , we wanted to have it so that they were in familiar f terms with what they wanted to do . he downloaded from the cd onto audio tapes . and apparently he did it one channel per audio tape . so each of these people is transcribing from one channel . grad h: right . phd e: oh . postdoc g: and then what he 's going to do is check it , a before they go be beyond the first one . check it and , you know , adjust it , and all that . phd e: so each person gets one of these channels grad h: right . professor b: so if they hear something off in the distance they do n't they just go phd e: ok . postdoc g: i i do n't know . grad h: well , but that 's ok , because , you know , you 'll do all them and then combine them . phd e: but there could be problems , right ? with that . postdoc g: i have t i , you know i phd c: yep . postdoc g: i think it would be difficult to do it that way . i really phd a: yeah . phd e: well if you 're tran if you got that channel right there postdoc g: d uh , in my case phd c: yeah . grad h: no , no . we 're talking about close talking , not the not the desktop . phd d: no , close talk . professor b: are you ? postdoc g: yes . well i th i think so . grad h: i sure hope so . it 'd be really foolish to do otherwise . postdoc g: yeah , i i would think that it would be kind of hard to come out with yeah . phd a: i i think it 's sort of hard just playing the you know , just having played the individual files . and i i mean , i know you . i know what your voice sounds like . i 'm sort of familiar with phd c: yeah . phd a: uh , it 's pretty hard to follow , especially grad h: one side . phd a: there are a lot of words that are so reduced phonetically that make sense when you know what the person was saying before . postdoc g: i agree . phd c: yeah . phd e: yeah , that 's phd a: uh , it sort of depends where you are in postdoc g: and especially since a lot of these phd d: yeah . grad h: but i mean we had this we 've had this discussion many times . postdoc g: yeah , we have . grad h: and the answer is we do n't actually know the answer because we have n't tried both ways . postdoc g: well , except i can say that my transcribers use the mixed signal mostly grad h: so . mm - hmm . phd a: mm - hmm . phd e: right . postdoc g: unless there 's a huge disparity in terms of the volume on on the mix . in which case , you know , they they would n't be able to catch anything except the prominent { comment } channel , grad h: right . phd c: yeah . postdoc g: then they 'll switch between . grad h: well i think that that might change if you wanted really fine time markings . postdoc g: but but really well , ok . grad h: so . professor b: but they 're not giving f really fine time markings . postdoc g: yeah , well phd a: actually , are th so are they giving any time markings ? grad h: right . phd a: in other words , if postdoc g: well , i have to ask him . phd a: yeah . postdoc g: and that 's that 's my email to him . that needs to be forthcoming . phd a: cuz ok . postdoc g: but but the , uh i did want to say that it 's hard to follow one channel of a conversation even if you know the people , and if you 're dealing furthermore with highly abstract network concepts you 've never heard of so , you know , one of these people was was transcribing the , uh , networks group talk and she said , `` i do n't really know what a lot of these abbreviations are , `` `` but i just put them in parentheses cuz that 's the that 's the convention and i just `` cuz you know , if you do n't know grad h: oh , i 'd be curious to to look at that . phd e: just out of curiosity , i mean grad h: they also all have h heavy accents . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . postdoc g: yeah . grad h: the networks group meetings are all phd e: given all of the effort that is going on here in transcribing why do we have i b m doing it ? why not just do it all ourselves ? professor b: um , it 's historical . i mean , uh , some point ago we thought that uh , it `` boy , we 'd really have to ramp up to do that `` , phd c: uh - huh . phd d: no , just professor b: you know , like we just did , and , um , here 's , uh , a a , uh , collaborating institution that 's volunteered to do it . phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: so , that was a contribution they could make . uh in terms of time , money , you know ? phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: and it still might be a good thing phd e: i 'm just wondering now phd a: actu yeah , mar - mari asked me the same question as sort of professor b: but phd e: well , i 'm i 'm wondering now if it 's grad h: well we can talk about more details later . phd a: um , you know , yeah , whether to professor b: yeah . yeah . yeah , so . phd e: hmm . professor b: we 'll see . i mean , i think , th you know , they they they 've proceeded along a bit . let 's see what comes out of it , and and , uh , you know , have some more discussions with them . postdoc g: mm - hmm . it 's very a real benefit having brian involved because of his knowledge of what the how the data need to be used and so what 's useful to have in the format . grad h: yeah . professor b: mm - hmm . yeah . grad h: so , um , liz , with with the sri recognizer , { comment } can it make use of some time marks ? phd a: ok , so this is a , um , grad h: i i guess i do n't know what that means . phd a: and actually i should say this is what don has b uh , he 's already been really helpful in , uh , chopping up these so so first of all you um , i mean , for the sri front - end , we really need to chop things up into pieces that are f not too huge . um , but second of all , uh in general because some of these channels , i 'd say , like , i do n't know , at least half of them probably { comment } on average are g are ha are have a lot of cross - ta sorry , some of the segments have a lot of cross - talk . um , it 's good to get sort of short segments if you 're gon na do recognition , especially forced alignment . so , uh , don has been taking a first stab actually using jane 's first the fir the meeting that jane transcribed which we did have some problems with , and thilo , uh , i think told me why this was , but that people were switching microphones around { comment } in the very beginning , so the sri re phd c: no , th yeah . no . they they were not switching them but what they were they were adjusting them , phd a: and they they were not phd c: so . grad f: mmm . grad h: adjusting . oh . phd a: yeah . phd c: and aft after a minute or so it 's it 's way better . phd a: so we have to sort of normalize { comment } the front - end and so forth , and have these small segments . phd c: so yep . phd a: so we 've taken that and chopped it into pieces based always on your your , um , cuts that you made on the mixed signal . and so that every every speaker has the same cuts . and if they have speech in it we run it through . and if they do n't have speech in it we do n't run it through . and we base that knowledge on the transcription . grad h: on just on the marks . right ? phd a: um , the problem is if we have no time marks , then for forced alignment we actually do n't know where you know , in the signal the transcriber heard that word . and so grad h: oh , i see , phd a: i mean , if if it 's a whole conversation and we get a long , uh , you know , par paragraph of of talk , grad h: it 's for the length . i see . phd a: uh , i do n't know how they do this . um , we actually do n't know which piece goes where . grad h: i understand . phd a: and , um , i think with phd e: well you would need to like a forced alignment before you did the chopping , right ? phd a: no , we used the fact that so when jane transcribes them the way she has transcribers doing this , whether it 's with the pre - segmentation or not , grad h: it 's already chunked . phd a: they have a chunk and then they transcribes { comment } the words in the chunk . and maybe they choose the chunk or now they use a pre - segmentation and then correct it if necessary . but there 's first a chunk and then a transcription . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: then a chunk , then a transcription . that 's great , cuz the recognizer can grad h: uh , it 's all pretty good sized for the recognizer also . phd a: right , and it it helps that it 's made based on sort of heuristics and human ear i think . postdoc g: good . oh good . phd a: th - but there 's going to be a real problem , uh , even if we chop up based on speech silence these , uh , the transcripts from i b m , we do n't actually know where the words were , which segment they belonged to . grad h: right . phd a: so that 's sort of what i 'm worried about right now . phd e: why not do a a a forced alignment ? grad h: that 's what she 's saying , is that you ca n't . phd a: if you do a forced alignment on something really grad h: got uh six sixty minutes of phd a: well even if you do it on something really long you need to know you can always chop it up but you need to have a reference of which words went with which , uh , chop . postdoc g: now was n't i thought that one of the proposals was that ibm was going to do an initial forced alignment , phd a: so postdoc g: after they grad h: yeah , but professor b: i i think that they are , grad h: we 'll have to talk to brian . professor b: um , yeah , i 'm sure they will and so we we have to have a dialogue with them about it . phd a: yeah . professor b: i mean , it sounds like liz has some concerns phd a: maybe they have some you know , maybe actually there is some , even if they 're not fine grained , maybe the transcribers professor b: and phd a: uh , i do n't know , maybe it 's saved out in pieces or or something . that would help . postdoc g: yeah . phd a: but , uh , it 's just an unknown right now . postdoc g: yeah . i i need to to write to him . phd a: so . postdoc g: i just you know , it 's like i got over - taxed with the timing . phd a: right . but the it is true that the segments i have n't tried the segments that thilo gave you but the segments that in your first meeting are great . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: i mean , that 's that 's a good length . postdoc g: a good size . good . phd a: right , cuz postdoc g: well , i i was thinking it would be fun to to uh , uh , if if you would n't mind , { comment } to give us a pre - segmentation . phd a: y yeah . phd c: yeah . postdoc g: uh , maybe you have one already of that first m of the meeting that uh , the first transcribed meeting , the one that i transcribed . phd c: um , i 'm sure i have some postdoc g: do you have a could you generate a pre - segmentation ? grad h: february sixteenth i think . phd c: but but that 's the one where we 're , um , trai training on , so that 's a little bit grad h: oh . postdoc g: oh , i see . phd c: it 's a little bit at odd to postdoc g: oh , darn . of course , of course , of course . yeah , ok . phd c: yeah . phd a: and actually as you get transcripts just , um , for new meetings , { comment } um , we can try postdoc g: uh - huh . phd a: i mean , the the more data we have to try the the alignments on , um , the better . so it 'd be good for just to know as transcriptions are coming through the pipeline from the transcribers , just to sort of we 're playing around with sort of uh , parameters f on the recognizer , postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: cuz that would be helpful . especially as you get , en more voices . postdoc g: excellent , good . phd a: the first meeting had i think just four people , phd c: four speakers , yeah . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . postdoc g: yeah , liz and i spoke d w at some length on tuesday and and i and i was planning to do just a a preliminary look over of the two that are finished and then give them to you . phd a: oh , great , great . postdoc g: yeah . phd a: so . professor b: that 's great . i guess the other thing , i i ca n't remember if we discussed this in the meeting but , uh , i know you and i talked about this a little bit , there was an issue of , uh , suppose we get in the , uh , i guess it 's enviable position although maybe it 's just saying where the weak link is in the chain , uh , where we we , uh uh , we have all the data transcribed and we have these transcribers and we were we 're the we 're still a bit slow on feeding at that point we 've caught up and the the the , uh , the weak link is is recording meetings . ok , um , two questions come , is you know what how how do we uh , it 's not really a problem at the moment cuz we have n't reached that point but how do we step out the recorded meetings ? and the other one is , um , uh , is there some good use that we can make of the transcribers to do other things ? so , um , i i ca n't remember how much we talked about this in this meeting but there was grad h: we had spoken with them about it . postdoc g: and there is one use that that also we discussed which was when , uh , dave finishes the and maybe it 's already finished the the modification to multi - trans which will allow fine grained encoding of overlaps . uh , then it would be very these people would be very good to shift over to finer grain encoding of overlaps . it 's just a matter of , you know , providing so if right now you have two overlapping segments in the same time bin , well with with the improvement in the database in in the , uh , sorry , in the interface , it 'd be possible to , um , you know , just do a click and drag thing , and get the uh , the specific place of each of those , the time tag associated with the beginning and end of of each segment . professor b: right , so i think we talking about three level three things . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: one one was uh , we had s had some discussion in the past about some very high level labelings , postdoc g: yeah . the types of overlaps professor b: types of overlaps , and so forth that that someone could do . second was , uh , somewhat lower level postdoc g: mm - hmm . professor b: just doing these more precise timings . and the third one is is , uh , just a completely wild hair brained idea that i have which is that , um , if , uh if we have time and people are able to do it , to take some subset of the data and do some very fine grained analysis of the speech . for instance , uh , marking in some overlapping potentially overlapping fashion , uh , the value of , uh , ar articulatory features . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: you know , just sort of say , ok , it 's voiced from here to here , there 's it 's nasal from here to here , and so forth . um , as opposed to doing phonetic uh , you know , phonemic and the phonetic analysis , grad h: professor b: and , uh , assuming , uh , articulatory feature values for those those things . um , obviously that 's extremely time - consuming . uh phd e: that would be really valuable i think . professor b: but , uh , we could do it on some small subset . postdoc g: also if you 're dealing with consonants that would be easier than vowels , would n't it ? i mean , i would think that that , uh , being able to code that there 's a a fricative extending from here to here would be a lot easier than classifying precisely which vowel that was . grad h: which one . phd a: mmm . professor b: mm - hmm . postdoc g: i think vowels vowels are i think harder . professor b: well , yeah , phd c: yeah . professor b: but i think also it 's just the issue that that when you look at the u w u u when you look at switchboard for instance very close up there are places where whether it 's a consonant or a vowel you still have trouble calling it a particular phone postdoc g: mm - hmm . professor b: at that point postdoc g: mm - hmm , ok . grad h: yeah , but but just saying what the professor b: because it 's you know , there 's this movement from here to here postdoc g: yeah , i 'm sure . uh , yeah , i i know . phd a: right . professor b: and and and it 's so i phd e: you 're saying r sort of remove the high level constraints and go bottom - up . professor b: yeah , describe describe it . phd e: then just say grad h: yep , just features . phd a: mmm . professor b: now i 'm suggesting articulatory features . maybe there 's there 's even a better way to do it but it but but that 's , you know , sort of a traditional way of describing these things , phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: um , and uh , i mean , actually this might be a g neat thing to talk to postdoc g: that 's nice . phd e: acoustic features versus psychological categories . professor b: sort of . i mean , it 's still phd e: yeah . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: some sort of categories but but something that allows for overlapping change of these things and then this would give some more ground work for people who were building statistical models that allowed for overlapping changes , different timing changes as opposed to just `` click , you 're now in this state , which corresponds to this speech sound `` and so on . phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: so this is like gestural uh , these g professor b: yeah , something like that . phd a: right . ok . professor b: i mean , actually if we get into that it might be good to , uh , uh , haul john ohala into this phd a: right . professor b: and ask his his views on it i think . grad h: yeah . phd a: but is is the goal there to have this on meeting data , postdoc g: excellent . phd a: like so that you can do far field studies { comment } of those gestures or um , or is it because you think there 's a different kind of actual production in meetings { comment } that people use ? or ? professor b: no , i think i think it 's for for for that purpose i 'm just viewing meetings as being a a neat way to get people talking naturally . and then you have i and then and then it 's natural in all senses , phd e: just a source of data ? phd a: i see . professor b: in the sense that you have microphones that are at a distance that you know , one might have , and you have the close mikes , and you have people talking naturally . and the overlap is just indicative of the fact that people are talking naturally , phd a: uh - huh . phd d: yeah . phd a: right . professor b: right ? so so i think that given that it 's that kind of corpus , phd d: yeah . professor b: if it 's gon na be a very useful corpus um , if you say w ok , we 've limited the use by some of our , uh , uh , censored choices , we do n't have the video , we do n't and so forth , but there 's a lot of use that we could make of it by expanding the annotation choices . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh , most of the things we 've talked about have been fairly high level , and being kind of a bottom - up person i thought maybe we 'd , do some of the others . grad h: hmm . phd a: right . yeah , that would be good . postdoc g: it 's a nice balance . professor b: yeah . postdoc g: that would be really nice to offer those things with that wide range . phd a: right . professor b: yeah and hopefully someone would make use of it . postdoc g: really nice . professor b: i mean , people did n't postdoc g: yeah . professor b: uh , i mean , people have made a lot of use of of timit and , uh w due to its markings , and then the switchboard transcription thing , well i think has been very useful for a lot of people . grad h: right . phd a: that 's true . professor b: so phd a: i guess i wanted to , um , sort of make a pitch for trying to collect more meetings . postdoc g: cool . phd a: um , professor b: yeah . phd a: i actually i talked to chuck fillmore and i think they 've what , vehemently said no before but this time he was n't vehement and he said you know , `` well , liz , come to the meeting tomorrow professor b: yeah . phd a: and try to convince people `` . so i 'm gon na try . go to their meeting tomorrow and see if we can try , uh , to convince them postdoc g: mm - hmm . good . professor b: cuz they have something like three or four different meetings , phd a: because they have and they have very interesting meetings from the point of view of a very different type of of talk than we have here professor b: right ? postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd d: talk phd a: and definitely than the front end meeting , probably . um phd e: you mean in terms of the topic topics ? phd a: well , yes and in terms of the the fact that they 're describing abstract things and , uh , just dialogue - wise , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: right . phd e: mm - hmm . phd a: um , so i 'll try . and then the other thing is , i do n't know if this is at all useful , but i asked lila if i can maybe go around and talk to the different departments in this building to see if there 's any groups that , for a free lunch , professor b: yes . phd a: if we can still offer that , might be willing professor b: great . grad h: you mean non - icsi ? phd a: non - icsi , non - academic , grad h: yeah , i guess you you can try phd a: you know , like government people , grad h: but phd a: i do n't know . grad h: the problem is so much of their stuff is confidential . phd a: so . phd d: yeah . postdoc g: yeah . grad h: it would be very hard for them . phd a: is is it in these departments ? phd d: yeah . postdoc g: also it does seem like it takes us way out of the demographic . i mean , it seems like we we had this idea before of having like linguistics students brought down for free lunches grad h: well , tha i think that 's her point . postdoc g: and that 's a nice idea . phd a: right , and then we could also we might try advertising again because i think it 'd be good if if we can get a few different sort of non - internal types of meetings postdoc g: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd a: and just also more data . so . phd e: does does john ohala have weekly phonetics lab meetings ? postdoc g: mm - hmm . grad h: and i think , uh , if we could get phd a: so i actually wrote to him and he answered , `` great , that sounds really interesting `` . but i never heard back because we did n't actually advertise openly . we a i mean w i told i d asked him privately . um , and it is a little bit of a trek for campus folks . postdoc g: mm - hmm . grad h: yeah . you might give them a free lunch . phd a: um , so it 's still worthwhile . grad h: but , um , it would be nice if we got someone other than me who knew how to set it up and could do the recording phd a: so grad h: so u i did n't have to do it each time . phd a: exactly , and and postdoc g: yeah . that 's right . phd a: and i was thinking professor b: he - he 's supposed he 's supposed to be trained to do it . phd a: yeah . plus we could also get you know , a s a student . grad h: ok , next week you 're going to do it all . phd d: yeah . phd a: and i 'm willing to try to learn . i mean , i 'm i would do my best . um , the other thing is that there was a number of things at the transcription side that , um , transcribers can do , like dialogue act tagging , grad h: it 's not that hard . phd a: disfluency tagging , um , things that are in the speech that are actually something we 're y { comment } working on for language modeling . and mari 's also interested in it , andreas as well . so if you wan na process a utterance and the first thing they say is , `` well `` , and that `` well `` is coded as some kind of interrupt u tag . uh , and things like that , um , th postdoc g: of course some of that can be li done lexically . phd a: a lot of it can be done postdoc g: and i also they are doing disfluency tagging to some degree already . phd a: great . so a a lot of this kind of postdoc g: yeah . phd a: i think there 's a second pass and i do n't really know what would exist in it . but there 's definitely a second pass worth doing to maybe encode some kinds of , you know , is it a question or not , postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: or um , that maybe these transcribers could do . so yeah . postdoc g: they 'd be really good . they 're they 're very they 're very consistent . phd a: that 'd be great . professor b: mm - hmm . postdoc g: uh , i wanted to whi while we 're uh , so , to return just briefly to this question of more meeting data , um i have two questions . one of them is , um , jerry feldman 's group , they they , uh , are they i know that they recorded one meeting . are they willing ? professor b: i think they 're open to it . i think , you know , all these things are phd a: oh , yeah . professor b: i think there 's we should go beyond , uh , icsi but , i mean , there 's a lot of stuff happening at icsi that we 're not getting now that we could . phd a: oh , that we could . professor b: so it 's just postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: ok . i thought that all these people had sort of said `` no `` twice already . professor b: yeah . so the phd a: if that 's not the case then professor b: no , no . no . so th there was the thing in fillmore 's group but even there he had n't what he 'd said `` no `` to was for the main meeting . but they have several smaller meetings a week , grad h: so . professor b: and , uh , the notion was raised before that that could happen . and it just , you know it just did n't come together phd a: just ok . phd e: well , and and the other thing too is when they originally said `` no `` they did n't know about this post - editing capability thing . professor b: but phd a: right . postdoc g: oh . professor b: yeah . yeah . phd a: right . that was a big fear . phd e: so . postdoc g: that 's important . professor b: yeah , so i mean there 's possibilities there . i think jerry 's group , yes . phd a: ok . professor b: uh , there 's there 's , uh , the networks group , uh , i do n't do they still meeting regularly or ? grad h: well , i do n't know if they meet regularly or not but they are no longer recording . professor b: but i mean , ha ha have they said they do n't want to anymore or ? grad h: um , ugh , what was his name ? professor b: uh , i i postdoc g: joe sokol ? grad h: yeah . professor b: yeah . grad h: when with him gone , it sorta trickled off . professor b: ok , so they 're down to three or four people grad h: they and they stopped yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: but the thing is three or four people is ok . grad h: yep . postdoc g: we might be able to get the administration grad h: well he was sort of my contact , so i just need to find out who 's running it now . professor b: ok . grad h: so . postdoc g: i see that lila has a luncheon meeting in here periodically . phd a: yeah , i mean , it one thing that would be nice postdoc g: i do n't know phd a: and this it sounds bizarre but , i 'd really like to look at to get some meetings where there 's a little bit of heated discussion , like ar arguments and or emotion , and things like that . and so i was thinking if there 's any like berkeley political groups or something . i mean , that 'd be perfect . some group , `` yes , we must `` grad h: who 's willing to get recorded and distributed ? phd a: well , you know , something phd c: yeah . grad f: yeah , i do n't think the more political argumentative ones would be willing to phd a: um professor b: yeah , with with with potential use from the defense department . phd d: yeah . phd a: well , ok . professor b: yeah . phd a: no , but maybe stu student , uh , groups or , um , film - makers , or som something a little bit colorful . phd c: yeah . grad f: yeah . exactly . postdoc g: yeah . grad h: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah . yeah , th there 's a problem there in terms of , uh , the um commercial value of of st uh , postdoc g: yeah , of course there is this problem though , that if we give them the chance to excise later we e might end up with like five minutes out of a f { comment } of m one hour phd d: film - maker . grad h: of beeps , phd c: yeah . yeah . grad h: yeah . phd a: and i do n't mean that they 're angry phd d: is postdoc g: of { comment } yes . really . phd a: but just something with some more variation in prosodic contours and so forth would be neat . so if anyone has ideas , i 'm willing to do the leg work to go try to talk to people but i do n't really know which groups are worth pursuing . postdoc g: well there was this k p f a grad h: no that 's postdoc g: but ok . grad h: legal . postdoc g: ok , ok . professor b: it it it it turned out to be a bit of a problem . phd a: or postdoc g: and i had one other one other aspect of this which is , um , uh , uh , jonathan fiscus expressed primar uh y a major interest in having meetings which were all english speakers . now he was n't trying to shape us in terms of what we gather professor b: mm - hmm . postdoc g: but that 's what he wanted me to show him . so i 'm giving him our , um our initial meeting because he asked for all english . and i think we do n't have a lot of all english meetings right now . professor b: of all all nat all native speakers . phd e: did he mean , uh did he mean and non - british ? grad h: well phd c: the all native . postdoc g: that 's what i mean , yeah . grad h: well if he meant and non - british i think we have zero . postdoc g: he does n't care . no . eh , well , british is ok . phd e: he said british was ok ? postdoc g: but but sure , sure , sure . professor b: why ? grad h: british is english ? phd c: postdoc g: yeah . different varieties of english . phd c: ooo , ooo . professor b: well , i do n't i do n't i do n't think if he did n't say that postdoc g: native speaking . native speaking english . grad h: i bet he meant native speaking american . postdoc g: yes . professor b: i bet he did . phd c: american english ? postdoc g: oh , really . grad h: so , why would he care ? phd e: knowing the application phd a: that 's professor b: i remember wh i i remember a study phd a: i was thinking , knowing the , uh , n national institute of standards , it is all professor b: i remember a study that bbn did where they trained on this was in wall street journal days or something , they trained on american english and then they tested on , uh , different native speakers from different areas . and , uh , uh , the worst match was people whose native tongue was mandarin chinese . the second worst was british english . postdoc g: that 's funny . professor b: so h it 's , you know , t postdoc g: alright . and so that would make sense . professor b: the the the german was much better , phd c: ooo , ooo . postdoc g: i did n't have the context of that . professor b: it was swiss w yeah , so it 's so i think , you know , if he 's if he 's thinking in terms of recognition kind of technology i i i think he would probably want , uh american english , postdoc g: all america , ok . grad h: i wonder if we have any . professor b: yeah . it it yeah , unless we 're gon na train with a whole bunch of postdoc g: i think that the feldman 's meetings tend to be more that way , are n't they ? i mean , i sort of feel like they have professor b: i think so , grad h: maybe . phd a: yeah , professor b: yeah . grad h: maybe . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . phd d: mmm . grad h: and maybe there are a few of with us where it was professor b: yeah . grad h: you know , dan was n't there and before jose started coming , professor b: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad h: and professor b: it 's pretty tough , uh , this group . yeah . grad h: yeah . phd c: mmm . professor b: so , uh , what about what about people who involved in some artistic endeavor ? phd d: yeah . professor b: i mean , film - making or something like that . phd a: exactly , that 's what i was professor b: you 'd think like they would be phd d: a film - maker . phd a: something where there there is actually discussion where there 's no right or wrong answer but but it 's a matter of opinion kind of thing . uh , anyway , if you if you have ideas postdoc g: it 's be fun . grad h: rasta . plp . rasta . plp . phd d: yes . grad f: we can just discu we can just have a political discussion one day . phd a: yeah , we could phd e: a any department that calls itself science phd d: department . grad f: uh , i could make that pretty phd d: yeah . grad h: well , like computer science . phd d: computer sci grad h: that postdoc g: we could get julia child . i know . phd a: i 'm i 'm actually serious grad h: that 's phd a: because , uh , you know , we have the set up here grad h: got a ticket . professor b: yeah , i know you are . phd a: and and that that has a chance to give us some very interesting fun data . so if anyone has ideas , phd d: yeah . phd a: if you know any groups that are m you know , professor b: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad h: well i had asked some some of the students at the business school . phd a: student groups c like clubs , things like that . grad f: i know grad h: i could phd a: not not professor b: put a little ad up saying , `` come here and argue `` . phd a: yeah . `` if you 're really angry at someone use our conference room . `` grad h: the business school . uh , the business school might be good . i actually spoke with some students up there phd a: oh , ok . grad h: and they they they expressed willingness back when they thought they would be doing more stuff with speech . phd a: really . grad h: but when they lost interest in speech they also stopped answering my email about other stuff , so . phd d: hmm . phd a: or people who are really h professor b: they could have a discussion about te grad f: i grad h: we should probably bleep that out . professor b: about about tax cuts or something . grad f: i heard that at cal tech they have a special room someone said that they had a special room to get all your frustrations out that you can go to and like throw things and break things . professor b: yeah , now that is not actually what we grad f: so we can like post a grad h: th - that 's not what we want . grad f: no , not to that extent phd a: well , far field mikes can pick up where they threw stuff on the wall . grad f: but , um . yeah . professor b: yeah , but we do n't want them to throw the far field mikes is the thing . phd a: oh . yeah , right . grad h: that 's right . phd d: the fa grad f: yeah . phd d: grad h: `` please throw everything in that direction . `` professor b: yeah . anyway . grad h: padded cell . postdoc g: it 'd be fun to get like a a p visit from the grad h: there was a dorm room at tech that , uh , someone had coated the walls and the ceiling , and , uh , the floor with mattresses . grad f: mmm . grad h: the entire room . professor b: i had as my fourth thing here processing of wave forms . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: what did we mean by that ? remember @ @ ? grad h: uh , liz wanted to talk about methods of improving accuracy by doing pre - processing . postdoc g: pre - processing . phd a: well i think that that was just sort of i i already asked thilo professor b: oh , you already did that . phd a: but that , um , it would be helpful if i can stay in the loop somehow with , um , people who are doing any kind of post - processing , whether it 's to separate speakers or to improve the signal - to - noise ratio , or both , um , that we can sort of try out as we 're running recognition . um , so , i is that who else is work i guess dan ellis and you phd c: dan , yeah . professor b: yeah , and dave uh gel - gelbart again , grad h: yep . phd a: and dave . phd c: yep . phd a: ok . phd d: yeah . professor b: he 's he 's interested in in fact we 're look starting to look at some echo cancellation kind of things . phd a: ok . professor b: which uh grad h: i am not sure how much that 's an issue with the close talking mikes , professor b: hmm ? grad h: but who knows ? professor b: well , let 's w i is n't that what what you want phd a: i do n't know . i 'm bad professor b: t no , so no , i w wha what you what you want when you 're saying improving the wave form you want the close talking microphone to be better . phd a: it 's like { comment } like professor b: right ? grad h: right . professor b: and the question is to w to what extent is it getting hurt by , uh by any room acoustics or is it just uh , given that it 's close it 's not a problem ? phd a: it does n't seem like big room acoustics problems to my ear professor b: uh phd a: but i 'm not an expert . it seems like a problem with cross - talk . professor b: ok , so it 's phd c: yeah . grad h: e i bet with the lapel mike there 's plenty , uh , room acoustic phd a: that that may be true . grad h: but i i think the rest is cross - talk . phd a: but i do n't know how good it can get either by those the those methods grad h: yeah . phd a: that 's true . professor b: ok . grad h: so i i think it 's just , phd a: oh , i do n't know . grad h: yeah , what you said , cross - talk . phd a: all i meant is just that as sort of as this pipeline of research is going on we 're also experimenting with different asr , uh , techniques . grad h: mm - hmm . phd a: and so it 'd be w good to know about it . phd e: so the problem is like , uh , on the microphone of somebody who 's not talking they 're picking up signals from other people { comment } and that 's causing problems ? phd a: r right , although if they 're not talking , using the the inhouse transcriptions , were sort of o k because the t no one transcribed any words there and we throw it out . phd e: mm - hmm . phd a: but if they 're talking at all and they 're not talking the whole time , so you get some speech and then a `` mm - hmm `` , and some more speech , so that whole thing is one chunk . and the person in the middle who said only a little bit is picking up the speech around it , that 's where it 's a big problem . postdoc g: you know , this does like seem like it would relate to some of what jose 's been working on as well , the encoding of the phd d: yeah . postdoc g: and and he also , he was phd a: the energy , phd d: yeah , phd a: right . exactly . phd d: energy . postdoc g: i was t i was trying to remember , you have this interface where you i you ha you showed us one time on your laptop that you you had different visual displays as speech and nonspeech events . phd d: yeah , c yeah . may i i only display the different colors for the different situation . but , eh , for me and for my problems , is uh is enough . because , eh , it 's possible , eh , eh , in a simp sample view , uh , to , nnn , to compare with c with the segment , the the kind of assessment what happened with the the different parameters . and only with a different bands of color for the , uh , few situation , eh , i consider for acoustic event is enough to @ @ . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd d: i i i see that , eh , you are considering now , eh , a very sophisticated , eh , ehm , eh , @ @ { comment } set of , eh , graphic s eh , eh , ehm , si symbols to to transcribe . no ? because , uh , before , you you are talking about the the possibility to include in the transcriber program eh , um , a set of symbols , of graphic symbol to t to mark the different situations during the transcription postdoc g: oh , i w uh - huh . phd d: during the transcription . no ? postdoc g: well , you 're saying so , uh , symbols for differences between laugh , and sigh , and and and slam the door and stuff ? phd d: yeah . yeah , yeah . the s the symbols , you you talk of before . postdoc g: or some other kind of thing ? phd d: no ? to to mark postdoc g: well , i would n't say symbols so much . the the main change that i that i see in the interface is is just that we 'll be able to more finely c uh , time things . phd d: yeah . yeah . postdoc g: but i i also st there was another aspect of your work that i was thinking about when i was talking to you phd a: hmm . postdoc g: which is that it sounded to me , liz , as though you and , uh , maybe i did n't q understand this , but it sounded to me as though part of the analysis that you 're doing involves taking segments which are of a particular type and putting them together . phd d: yeah . postdoc g: and th so if you have like a p a s you know , speech from one speaker , then you cut out the part that 's not that speaker , phd a: mm - hmm . postdoc g: and you combine segments from that same speaker to { comment } and run them through the recognizer . is that right ? phd a: well we try to find as close of start and end time of as we can to the speech from an individual speaker , postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: because then we we 're more guaranteed that the recognizer will for the forced alignment which is just to give us the time boundaries , because from those time boundaries then the plan is to compute prosodic features . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: and the sort of more space you have that is n't the thing you 're trying to align the more errors we have . um , so , you know , that that it would help to have either pre - processing of a signal that creates very good signal - to - noise ratio , postdoc g: mm - hmm . cuz i ok . phd a: which i do n't know how possible this is for the lapel , um , or to have very to have closer , um , time you know , synch times , basically , around the speech that gets transcribed in it , or both . and it 's just sort of a open world right now of exploring that . so i just wanted to see , you know , on the transcribing end from here things look good . uh , the ibm one is more it 's an open question right now . and then the issue of like global processing of some signal and then , you know , before we chop it up is is yet another way we can improve things in that . phd e: what about increasing the flexibility of the alignment ? postdoc g: ok . phd e: do you remember that thing that michael finka did ? phd a: mm - hmm . phd e: that experiment he did a while back ? phd a: right . you can , um the problem is just that the acoustic when the signal - to - noise ratio is too low , um , you you 'll get , a uh an alignment with the wrong duration pattern or it phd e: oh , so that 's the problem , is the the signal - to - noise ratio . phd a: yeah . it 's not the fact that you have like i mean , what he did is allow you to have , uh , words that were in another segment move over to the at the edges of of segmentations . phd e: mm - hmm . or even words inserted that were n't were n't there . phd a: right , things things near the boundaries where if you got your alignment wrong phd e: mm - hmm . phd a: cuz what they had done there is align and then chop . phd e: mm - hmm . phd a: um , and this problem is a little bit j more global . it 's that there are problems even in inside the alignments , uh , because of the fact that there 's enough acoustic signal there t for the recognizer to to eat , as part of a word . and it tends to do that . s so , uh , phd d: yeah . phd a: but we probably will have to do something like that in addition . anyway . so , yeah , bottom bottom line is just i wanted to make sure i can be aware of whoever 's working on these signal - processing techniques for , uh , detecting energies , phd d: yeah . phd a: because that that 'll really help us . professor b: o k , uh tea has started out there i suggest we c run through our digits and , postdoc g: ok . professor b: uh , so , ok , we 're done .

setting up a microphone array and performing video recordings ( in a possible collaboration with nist ) are problematic due to the types of changes in infrastructure they require .

what decision was reached about microphones nonuniformity ? </s> professor b: are we on ? we 're on . ok . phd e: is it on ? phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah . ok , phd d: one , two u ok . phd a: why is it so cold in here ? professor b: so , uh , we have n't sent around the agenda . so , i uh , any agenda items anybody has , wants to talk about , what 's going on ? postdoc g: i c i could talk about the meeting . grad h: does everyone has everyone met don ? postdoc g: yeah . professor b: it 's on ? phd c: now , yeah . phd d: yeah . grad h: yeah ? ok . phd d: yeah . grad f: hello . professor b: ok , agenda item one , phd d: we went grad f: yeah . professor b: introduce don . ok , we did that . uh phd a: well , i had a just a quick question but i know there was discussion of it at a previous meeting that i missed , but just about the the wish list item of getting good quality close - talking mikes on every speaker . professor b: ok , so let 's let 's so let 's just do agenda building right now . ok , so let 's talk about that a bit . phd a: i mean , that was professor b: uh , @ @ tuss close talking mikes , better quality . ok , uh , we can talk about that . you were gon na starting to say something ? postdoc g: well , you you , um , already know about the meeting { comment } that 's coming up and i do n't know if if this is appropriate for this . i do n't know . i mean , maybe maybe it 's something we should handle outside of the meeting . professor b: no , no , that 's ok . phd e: what meeting ? professor b: we can so we can ta so n nist is nist folks are coming by next week postdoc g: ok . professor b: and so we can talk about that . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: i think phd e: who 's coming ? professor b: uh , uh , john fiscus postdoc g: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh , i think george doddington will be around as well . uh , ok , so we can talk about that . uh , i guess just hear about how things are going with , uh , uh , the transcriptions . that 's right . postdoc g: sure . mm - hmm . professor b: that would sorta be an obvious thing to discuss . um , an - anything else , uh , strike anybody ? phd a: uh , we started running recognition on one conversation but it 's the r is n't working yet . so , but if anyone has professor b: ok . phd e: wha phd a: uh , the main thing would be if anyone has , um , knowledge about ways to , uh , post - process the wave forms that would give us better recognition , that would be helpful to know about . professor b: um , grad h: dome yeah , it sounds like a topic of conversation . professor b: yeah , so , uh phd e: what about , uh , is there anything new with the speech , nonspeech stuff ? phd c: yeah , we 're working more on it but , it 's not finished . professor b: ok . alright , that seems like a a good collection of things . and we 'll undoubtedly think of other things . postdoc g: i had thought under my topic that i would mention the , uh , four items that i i , uh , put out for being on the agenda f on that meeting , which includes like the pre - segmentation and the and the developments in multitrans . professor b: oh , under the nist meeting . postdoc g: yeah , under the nist thing . professor b: ok . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: alright , why do n't we start off with this , u u i guess the order we brought them up seems fine . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: um , so , better quality close talking mikes . so the one issue was that the the , uh , lapel mike , uh , is n't as good as you would like . and so , uh , it it 'd be better if we had close talking mikes for everybody . right ? phd a: ri - um , professor b: is that is that basically the point ? phd a: yeah , the and actually in addition to that , that the the close talking mikes are worn in such a way as to best capture the signal . and the reason here is just that for the people doing work not on microphones but on sort of like dialogue and so forth , uh or and even on prosody , which don is gon na be working on soon , it adds this extra , you know , vari variable for each speaker to to deal with when the microphones are n't similar . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: right . phd a: so and i also talked to mari this morning and she also had a strong preference for doing that . and in fact she said that that 's useful for them to know in starting to collect their data too . professor b: mm - hmm . right , so one th grad h: well , so professor b: uh , well one thing i was gon na say was that , um , i we could get more , uh , of the head mounted microphones even beyond the number of radio channels we have because i think whether it 's radio or wire is probably second - order . and the main thing is having the microphone close to you , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: u although , not too close . grad h: right , so , uh , actually the way jose is wearing his is is c correct . phd d: yeah . is grad h: the good way . so you want to professor b: yeah . phd d: i it 's not cor it 's correct ? professor b: is . grad h: yeah , th that 's good . professor b: yes . phd d: yeah . grad h: so it 's towards the corner of your mouth so that breath sounds do n't get on it . phd d: yeah . yeah . grad h: and then just sort of about , uh , a thumb or a thumb and a half away from your from your mouth . phd d: yeah . yeah . uh , yeah . professor b: right . phd a: but we have more than one type of professor b: how am i d phd a: i mean , for instance , you 're phd c: yeah . grad h: and this one is n't very adjustable , phd d: yeah . grad h: so this about as good as i can get phd a: right . phd d: yeah . grad h: cuz it 's a fixed boom . phd d: is fixed . yeah . phd a: but if we could actually standardize , you know , the the microphones , uh , as much as possible that would be really helpful . professor b: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . grad h: mm - hmm . professor b: well , i mean it does n't hurt to have a few extra microphones around , phd d: yeah . professor b: so why do n't we just go out and and get an order of of if this microphone seems ok to people , uh , i 'd just get a half dozen of these things . grad h: well the onl the only problem with that is right now , um , some of the jimlets are n't working . the little the boxes under the table . professor b: yeah . grad h: and so , w uh , i 've only been able to find three jacks that are working . professor b: yeah . phd e: can we get these , wireless ? grad h: so professor b: no , but my point is phd a: but y we could just record these signals separately and time align them with the start of the meeting . professor b: r r right grad h: i i 'm not sure i 'm follow . say that again ? professor b: right now , we 've got , uh , two microphones in the room , that are not quote - unquote standard . so why do n't we replace those grad h: ok , just two . professor b: well , however many we can plug in . you know , if we can plug in three , let 's plug in three . grad h: ok . phd d: mm - yeah . professor b: also what we 've talked before about getting another , uh , radio , grad h: right . professor b: and so then that would be , you know , three more . grad h: right . ok . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: so , uh so we should go out to our full complement of whatever we can do , but have them all be the same mike . i think the original reason that it was done the other way was because , it w it was sort of an experimental thing and i do n't think anybody knew whether people would rather have more variety or or , uh , more uniformity , phd a: right . professor b: but @ @ { comment } but uh , sounds sounds fine . grad h: sounds like uniformity wins . phd d: right . phd a: well , for short term research it 's just there 's just so much effort that would have to be done up front n uh , professor b: yeah . grad h: well phd a: so yeah , uniformity would be great . grad h: yeah . phd e: is it because you you 're saying the for dialogue purposes , so that means that the transcribers are having trouble with those mikes ? is that what you mean ? phd a: well jane would know more about the transcribers . phd e: or ? postdoc g: and that 's true . i mean , i we did discuss this . uh , and and grad h: yep . couple times . postdoc g: a couple times , so , um , yeah , the transcribers notice and in fact there 're some where , um ugh well , i mean there 's it 's the double thing . it 's the equipment and also how it 's worn . phd a: right . postdoc g: and he 's always they always they just rave about how wonderful adam 's adam 's channel is . grad h: what can i say . postdoc g: and then , phd a: so does the recognizer . professor b: yeah . postdoc g: yeah . grad h: oh , really ? yeah , i 'm not surprised . i mean , `` baaah ! `` phd a: even if if you 're talking on someone else 's mike it 's still you w postdoc g: yeah , but i mean it 's not just that , it 's also you know you professor b: yeah . phd c: yeah . postdoc g: it 's also like n no breathing , no you know , it 's like it 's it 's um , professor b: yeah . postdoc g: it 's really it makes a big difference from the transcribers ' point of view grad h: yeah , it 's an advantage when you do n't breath . postdoc g: and also from the research s point of view . phd a: right . professor b: when we 're doing grad h: yeah , i think that the point of doing the close talking mike is to get a good quality signal . we 're not doing research on close talking mikes . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: yeah . grad h: so we might as well get it as uniform as we can . phd a: right . professor b: now , this is locking the barn door after the horse was stolen . we do have thirty hours , of of speech , which is done this way . grad h: yeah . phd a: that 's ok . professor b: but but , uh , yeah , for future ones we can get it a bit more uniform . phd a: great , great . grad h: so i think just do a field trip at some point . professor b: yeah , probably yeah , to the store we talked about and that grad h: yep . postdoc g: and there was some talk about , uh , maybe the h headphones that are uncomfortable for people , to grad h: yep . so , as as i said , we 'll do a field trip and see if we can get all of the same mike that 's more comfortable than than these things , which i think are horrible . postdoc g: ok . good . grad h: so . phd a: great , thank you very much . phd e: especially for people with big heads . phd a: it 's makes our job a lot easier . professor b: ok . ok . grad h: and , you know , we 're researchers , so we all have big heads . professor b: ok . phd e: yeah . professor b: yeah . uh , ok , second item was the , uh , nist visit , and what 's going on there . postdoc g: yeah . ok , so , um , uh , jonathan fiscus is coming on the second of february and i 've spoken with , uh , u u a lot of people here , not everyone . um , and , um , he expressed an interest in seeing the room and in , um , seeing a demonstration of the modified multitrans , which i 'll mention in a second , and also , um , he was interested in the pre - segmentation and then he 's also interested in the transcription conventions . grad h: mm - hmm . postdoc g: and , um so , um , it seems to me in terms of like , um , i i it wou you know , ok . so the room , it 's things like the audio and c and audi audio and acoustic acoustic properties of the room and how it how the recordings are done , and that kind of thing . and , um . ok , in terms of the multi - trans , well that that 's being modified by dave gelbart to , uh , handle multi - channel recording . grad h: oh , i should 've i was just thinking i should have invited him to this meeting . i forgot to do it . postdoc g: yeah , ok . grad h: so . phd c: yeah . postdoc g: yeah . well that 's ok , i mean we 'll grad h: sorry . postdoc g: yeah , and it 's t and it looks really great . he he has a prototype . i i , uh , @ @ { comment } did n't did n't see it , uh , yesterday but i 'm going to see it today . and , uh , that 's that will enable us to do nice um , tight time marking of the beginning and ending of overlapping segments . at present it 's not possible with limitations of of the , uh , original design of the software . and um . so , i do n't know . in terms of , like , pre - segmentation , that that continues to be , um , a terrific asset to the to the transcribers . do you i know that you 're al also supplementing it further . do you want to mention something about that c thilo , or ? phd c: um , yeah . what what i 'm doing right now is i 'm trying to include some information about which channel , uh , there 's some speech in . but that 's not working at the moment . i 'm just trying to do this by comparing energies , uh normalizing energies and comparing energies of the different channels . postdoc g: ok . phd c: and so to to give the transcribers some information in which channel there 's there 's speech in addition to to the thing we we did now which is just , uh , speech - nonspeech detection on the mixed file . so i 'm i 'm relying on on the segmentation of the mixed file postdoc g: this is good . mm - hmm . phd c: but i 'm i 'm trying to subdivide the speech portions into different portions if there is some activity in in different channels . postdoc g: excellent , so this 'd be like w e providing also speaker id potentially . phd c: but yeah . yeah . postdoc g: wonderful . wonderful . professor b: um , something i guess i did n't put in the list but , uh , on that , uh , same day later on in or maybe it 's no , actually it 's this week , uh , dave gelbart and i will be , uh , visiting with john canny who i you know , is a cs professor , postdoc g: oh . professor b: who 's interested in ar in array microphones . grad h: hcc . oh , he 's doing array mikes . professor b: yeah . and so we wan na see what commonality there is here . you know , maybe they 'd wan na stick an array mike here when we 're doing things phd e: that would be cool . grad h: yeah , that would be neat . professor b: or or maybe it 's it 's not a specific array microphone they want phd d: yeah . phd e: that would be really neat . professor b: but they might wan na just , uh , you know , you could imagine them taking the four signals from these these table mikes and trying to do something with them um , i also had a discussion so , w uh , we 'll be over over there talking with him , um , after class on friday . um , we 'll let you know what what goes with that . also had a completely unrelated thing . i had a , uh , discussion today with , uh , birger kollmeier who 's a , uh , a german , uh , scientist who 's got a fair sized group doing a range of things . it 's sort of auditory related , largely for hearing aids and so on . but but , uh , he does stuff with auditory models and he 's very interested in directionality , and location , and and , uh , head models and microphone things . and so , uh , he 's he and possibly a student , there w there 's , uh , a student of his who gave a talk here last year , uh , may come here , uh , in the fall for , uh , sort of a five month , uh , sabbatical . so he might be around . get him to give some talks and so on . but anyway , he might be interested in this stuff . phd d: mm - hmm . phd e: that that reminds me , i had a a thought of an interesting project that somebody could try to do with the data from here , either using , you know , the the mikes on the table or using signal energies from the head worn mikes , phd d: mm - hmm . phd e: and that is to try to construct a map of where people were sitting , professor b: right . phd d: uh - huh . phd e: uh , based on grad h: well dan dan had worked on that . dan ellis , phd d: uh - huh . phd e: oh , did he ? oh , that 's interesting . grad h: yeah . so that that 's the cross - correlation stuff , was was doing b beam - forming . phd d: yeah . phd e: and so you could plot out who was sitting next to who professor b: a little bit , phd e: and professor b: i mean , he did n't do a very extreme thing but just it was just sort of phd d: yeah , yeah . grad h: no , he did start on it . professor b: e e given that , the the the block of wood with the the the two mikes { comment } on either side , grad h: mm - hmm . professor b: if i 'm speaking , or if you 're speaking , or someone over there is speaking , it if you look at cross - correlation functions , you end up with a phd d: yeah . professor b: if if someone who was on the axis between the two is talking , then you you get a big peak there . and if if someone 's talking on on on , uh , one side or the other , it goes the other way . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: and then , uh , it it it even looks different if th t if the two two people on either side are talking than if one in the middle . it it actually looks somewhat different , so . phd e: hmm . well i was just thinking , you know , as i was sitting here next to thilo that um , when he 's talking , my mike probably picks it up better than your guys 's mikes . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd e: so if you just looked at grad h: oh , that 's another cl cue , phd d: yeah . phd e: yeah , { comment } looked at { comment } the energy on my mike and you could get an idea about who 's closest to who . grad h: that 's true . phd d: yeah . professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . professor b: right . phd d: yeah . phd e: and grad h: or who talks the loudest . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah , well you have to the appropriate normalizations are tricky , and and and are probably the key . grad h: yeah . phd c: yeah . phd a: you just search for adam 's voice on each individual microphone , you pretty much know where everybody 's sitting . phd c: yeah . professor b: yeah . we 've switched positions recently so you ca n't anyway . ok . so those are just a little couple of news items . postdoc g: can i ask one thing ? uh , so , um , jonathan fiscus expressed an interest in , uh , microphone arrays . professor b: yes . postdoc g: um , is there i mean b and i also want to say , his he ca n't stay all day . he needs to uh , leave for uh , from here to make a two forty - five flight grad h: oh , so just morning . postdoc g: from from oakland . professor b: right . postdoc g: so it makes the scheduling a little bit tight but do you think that , um that , uh , i john canny should be involved in this somehow or not . i have no idea . professor b: probably not but i i 'll i 'll i 'll know better after i see him this friday what what kind of level he wants to get involved . postdoc g: it 's premature . fine . good . professor b: uh , he might be excited to and it might be very appropriate for him to , uh , or he might have no interest whatsoever . i i just really do n't know . postdoc g: ok . grad h: is he involved in ach ! { comment } i 'm blanking on the name of the project . nist has has done a big meeting room instrumented meeting room with video and microphone arrays , and very elaborate software . is is he the one working on that ? professor b: well that 's what they 're starting up . grad h: ok . professor b: yeah . no , i mean , that 's what all this is about . they they have n't done it yet . they wanted to do it grad h: ok . i had read some papers that looked like they had already done some work . professor b: uh , well i think they 've instrumented a room but i do n't think they they have n't started recordings yet . they do n't have the t the transcription standards . they do n't have the phd e: are they going to do video as well ? grad h: hmm . professor b: yeah . i think . phd e: hmm . professor b: i think they are . grad h: oh , cuz what what i had read was , uh , they had a uh very large amount of software infrastructure for coordinating all this , both in terms of recording and also live room where you 're interacting the participants are interacting with the computer , and with the video , and lots of other stuff . professor b: well , i 'm i 'm i 'm not sure . grad h: so . professor b: all all i know is that they 've been talking to me about a project that they 're going to start up recording people meet in meetings . grad h: ok . well professor b: and , uh , it is related to ours . they were interested in ours . they wanted to get some uniformity with us , uh , about the transcriptions and so on . grad h: alright . professor b: and one one notable difference u u actually i ca n't remember whether they were going to routinely collect video or not , but one one , uh , difference from the audio side was that they are interested in using array mikes . so , um , i mean , i 'll just tell you the party line on that . the reason i did n't go for that here was because , uh , the focus , uh , both of my interest and of adam 's interest was uh , in impromptu situations . and we 're not recording a bunch of impromptu situations but that 's because it 's different to get data for research than to actually apply it . phd d: hmm . professor b: and so , uh , for scientific reasons we thought it was good to instrument this room as we wanted it . but the thing we ultimately wanted to aim at was a situation where you were talking with , uh , one or more other people i uh , in in an p impromptu way , where you did n't did n't actually know what the situation was going to be . and therefore it would not it 'd be highly unlikely that room would be outfitted with with some very carefully designed array of microphones . um , so it was only for that reason . it was just , you know , yet another piece of research and it seemed like we had enough troubles just phd e: so there 's no like portable array of mikes ? professor b: no . so there 's there 's uh , there 's a whole range of things there 's a whole array of things , that people do on this . phd d: hmm . professor b: so , um , the , uh the big arrays , uh , places , uh , like uh , rutgers , and brown , and other other places , uh , they have , uh , big arrays with , i do n't know , a hundred hundred mikes or something . grad h: xerox . professor b: and so there 's a wall of mikes . and you get really , really good beam - forming { comment } with that sort of thing . phd e: wow . professor b: and it 's and , um , in fact at one point we had a a proposal in with rutgers where we were gon na do some of the sort of per channel signal - processing and they were gon na do the multi - channel stuff , but it d it d we ended up not doing it . but phd e: i 've seen demonstrations of the microphone arrays . it 's amazing how how they can cut out noise . professor b: yeah , it 's r it 's really neat stuff . grad h: and then they have little ones too professor b: and then they had the little ones , yeah . grad h: but i mean but they do n't have our block of wood , right ? professor b: yeah , our block of wood is unique . phd d: yeah . professor b: but the but the no , there are these commercial things now you can buy that have four mikes or something phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and and , uh , um so , yeah , there 's there 's there 's a range of things that people do . phd e: huh . professor b: um , so if we connected up with somebody who was interested in doing that sort of thing that 's that 's a good thing to do . i mean , whenever i 've described this to other people who are interested on the with the acoustic side that 's invariably the question they ask . just like someone who is interested in the general dialogue thing will always ask `` um , are you recording video ? `` phd a: right , professor b: um , right ? phd a: right . professor b: and and the acoustic people will always say , `` well are you doing , uh , uh , array microphones ? `` so it 's it 's a good thing to do , but it does n't solve the problem of how do you solve things when there 's one mike or at best two mikes in in this imagined pda that we have . so maybe maybe we 'll do some more of it . postdoc g: well one thing i i mean , i do n't know . i mean , i know that having an array of i mean , i would imagine it would be more expensive to have a an array of microphones . but could n't you kind of approximate the natural sis situation by just shutting off uh , channels when you 're later on ? i mean , it seems like if the microphones do n't effect each other then could n't you just , you know , record them with an array and then just not use all the data ? grad h: it 's it 's just a lot of infrastructure that for our particular purpose we felt we did n't need to set up . postdoc g: i see . phd a: yeah . postdoc g: fine . professor b: yeah , if ninety - nine percent of what you 're doing is c is shutting off most of the mikes , then going through the postdoc g: ok . professor b: but if you get somebody who 's who who has that as a primary interest then that put then that drives it in that direction . grad h: that 's right , i mean if someone if someone came in and said we really want to do it , phd a: right . grad h: i mean , we do n't care . that would be fine , phd e: so to save that data you you have to have one channel recording per mike in the array ? grad h: buy more disk space . professor b: well , uh , at some level at some level . phd e: is that grad h: i usually do a mix . professor b: but then , you know , there 's it there 's phd e: what you save , i mean , if you 're going to do research with it . yeah professor b: there 's i i do n't know what they 're going to do and i do n't know how big their array is . obviously if you were gon na save all of those channels for later research you 'd use up a lot of space . phd e: yeah . professor b: and , th phd e: hmm . grad h: well their software infrastructure had a very elaborate design for plugging in filters , and mixers , and all sorts of processing . so that they can do stuff in real time and not save out each channel individually . professor b: yeah . yeah . phd e: mmm . grad h: so it was , uh phd d: yeah . professor b: but i mean , uh , for optimum flexibility later you 'd want to save each channel . but i think in practical situations you would have some engine of some sort doing some processing to reduce this to some to the equivalent of a single microphone that was very directional . phd e: uh , oh , ok , i see . professor b: right ? phd a: i mean , it seems professor b: so phd e: sort of saving the result of the beam - forming . phd d: yeah . phd a: it seems to me that there 's you know , there are good political reasons for for doing this , just getting the data , because there 's a number of sites like right now sri is probably gon na invest a lot of internal funding into recording meetings also , which is good , um , but they 'll be recording with video and they 'll be you know , it 'd be nice if we can have at least , uh , make use of the data that we 're recording as we go since it 's sort of this is the first site that has really collected these really impromptu meetings , um , and just have this other information available . so , if we can get the investment in just for the infra infrastructure and then , i do n't know , save it out or have whoever 's interested save that data out , transfer it there , it 'd be g it 'd be good to have have the recording . i think . grad h: you mean to to actually get a microphone array and do that ? phd a: well , if even if we 're not grad h: and video and phd a: i 'm not sure about video . that 's sort of an video has a little different nature since right n right now we 're all being recorded but we 're not being taped . um , but it definitely in the case of microphone arrays , since if there was a community interested in this , then grad h: well , but i think we need a researcher here who 's interested in it . to push it along . professor b: see the problem is it it took , uh , uh , it took at least six months for dan to get together the hardware and the software , and debug stuff in in the microphones , and in the boxes . and it was a really big deal . and so i think we could get a microphone array in here pretty easily and , uh , have it mixed to to one channel of some sort . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: but , e i think for i mean , how we 're gon na decide for for maximum flexibility later you really do n't want to end up with just one channel that 's pointed in the direction of the the the p the person with the maximum energy or something like that . i mean , you you want actually to you want actually to have multiple channels being recorded so that you can and to do that , it we 're going to end up greatly increasing the disk space that we use up , we also only have boards that will take up to sixteen channels and in this meeting , we 've got eight people and and six mikes . and there we 're already using fourteen . grad h: and we actually only have fifteen . professor b: e grad h: one of them 's phd d: yeah . grad h: details . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . grad h: but fifteen , not sixteen . phd a: well if there 's a way to say time to sort of solve each of these f those professor b: yeah . phd a: so suppose you can get an array in because there 's some person at berkeley who 's interested and has some equipment , uh , and suppose we can as we save it we can , you know , transfer it off to some other place that that holds this this data , who 's interested , and even if icsi it itself is n't . um , and it it seems like as long as we can time align the beginning , do we need to mix it with the rest ? i do n't know . you know ? the professor b: yeah . so i think you 'd need a separate a separate set up phd a: so yeah . professor b: and the assumption that you could time align the two . phd a: i mean it 's just it 's worth considering as sort of grad h: and y it 'd certainly gets skew . phd a: once you make the up front investment { comment } and can sort of save it out each time , and and not have to worry about the disk space factor , then it mi it might be worth having the data . professor b: i 'm not so much worried about disk space actually . i mentioned that , b as a practical matter , grad h: just professor b: but the real issue is that , uh , there is no way to do a recording extended to what we have now with low skew . so you would have a t completely separate set up , phd a: right . professor b: which would mean that the sampling times and so forth would be all over the place compared to this . so it would depend on the level of pr processing you were doing later , but if you 're d i the kind of person who 's doing array processing you actually care about funny little times . and and so you actually wou would want to have a completely different set up than we have , phd a: i see . professor b: one that would go up to thirty - two channels or something . phd a: mmm . professor b: so basically grad h: or a hundred thirty - two . professor b: or a hun yeah . so , i 'm kinda skeptical , but um i think that phd a: mmm . professor b: so , uh , i do n't think we can share the resource in that way . but what we could do is if there was someone else who 's interested they could have a separate set up which they would n't be trying to synch with ours which might be useful for for them . phd a: right , i mean at least they 'd have the data and the transcripts , professor b: and then we can offer up the room , phd a: and right . professor b: yeah , we can o offer the meetings , and the physical space , and and yeah , the transcripts , and so on . phd a: ok . right , i mean , just it 'd be nice if we have more information on the same data . you know , and professor b: yeah . phd a: but it 's if it 's impossible or if it 's a lot of effort then you have to just balance the two , professor b: well i thi phd a: so professor b: yeah , the thing will be , u u in in again , in talking to these other people to see what you know , what what we can do . phd a: right . professor b: uh , we 'll see . phd e: is there an interest in getting video recordings for these meetings ? professor b: right , so we have we phd e: i mean grad h: yes , absolutely . but it 's exactly the same problem , that you have an infrastructure problem , you have a problem with people not wanting to be video taped , and you have the problem that no one who 's currently involved in the project is really hot to do it . phd e: hmm . so there 's not enough interest to overcome all of grad h: mm - hmm . phd a: right . internally , but i know there is interest from other places that are interested in looking at meeting data and having the video . so it 's just postdoc g: yeah , w although i m i i have to u u mention the human subjects problems , that i increase with video . phd a: right , that 's true . professor b: yeah , so it 's , uh , people people getting shy about it . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: there 's this human subjects problem . there 's the fact that then um , if i i i 've heard comments about this before , `` why do n't you just put on a video camera ? `` but you know , it 's sort of like saying , `` uh , well we 're primarily interested in in some dialogue things , uh , but , uh , why do n't we just throw a microphone out there . `` i mean , the thing is , once you actually have serious interest in any of these things then you actually have to put a lot of effort in . phd e: mmm . professor b: and , uh , you really want to do it right . grad h: i know . yep . professor b: so i think nist or ldc , or somebody like that i think is much better shape to do all that . we there will be other meeting recordings . we wo n't be the only place doing meeting recordings . we are doing what we 're doing . postdoc g: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh , hopefully it 'll be useful . postdoc g: i it it occurred to me , has don signed a human subject 's form ? grad h: oh ! probably not . postdoc g: a permission form ? grad h: has don have you s did you si i thought you did actually . grad f: i was yeah , i was i was here i was here before once . grad h: did n't you read a digit string ? phd e: you were here at a meeting before . postdoc g: you were here at a meeting before . phd e: yeah . grad f: so . grad h: yeah , and you and you signed a form . grad f: oh , i think so . postdoc g: did you sign a form ? grad f: did i ? i do n't know . grad h: i 'm pretty sure . well i 'll i 'll get another one before the end of the meeting . postdoc g: ok . professor b: yeah . grad h: thank you . grad f: yeah . postdoc g: ok . professor b: yeah . postdoc g: you do n't you do n't have to leave for it . professor b: yeah , we we postdoc g: but i just grad f: can i verbally consent ? postdoc g: you know . grad h: well i ca n't , i 'm wired in . professor b: we we we we do n't , uh phd a: yeah . you 're on recor you 're being recorded postdoc g: o grad f: yeah . phd a: and professor b: we do n't we do n't perform electro - shock during these meetings , grad f: i do n't care . you can do whatever you want with it . professor b: and phd e: usually . grad f: that 's fine . professor b: yeah . ok . uh , transcriptions . postdoc g: transcriptions , ok . um , i thought about there are maybe three aspects of this . so first of all , um , i 've got eight transcribers . uh , seven of them are linguists . one of them is a graduate student in psychology . um , each i gave each of them , uh , their own data set . two of them have already finished the data sets . and the meetings run , you know , let 's say an hour . sometimes as man much as an hour and a half . phd e: how big is the data set ? postdoc g: oh , it 's what i mean is one meeting . phd e: ah , ok . postdoc g: each each person got their own meeting . i did n't want to have any conflicts of , you know , of of when to stop transcribing this one or so i wanted to keep it clear whose data were whose , and and and so phd e: uh - huh . postdoc g: and , uh , meetings , you know , i think that they 're they go as long as a almost two hours in some in some cases . so , you know , that means you know , if we 've got two already finished and they 're working on uh , right now all eight of them have differe uh , uh , additional data sets . that means potentially as many as ten might be finished by the end of the month . phd e: wow . postdoc g: hope so . but the pre - segmentation really helps a huge amount . phd c: ok . postdoc g: and , uh , also dan ellis 's innovation of the , uh the multi - channel to here really helped a r a lot in terms of clearing clearing up h hearings that involve overlaps . but , um , just out of curiosity i asked one of them how long it was taking her , one of these two who has already finished her data set . she said it takes about , uh , sixty minutes transcription for every five minutes of real time . so it 's about twelve to one , which is what we were thinking . grad h: or yep . postdoc g: it 's well in the range . grad h: it 's pretty good . postdoc g: ok . uh , these still , when they 're finished , um , that means that they 're finished with their pass through . they still need to be edited and all but but it 's word level , speaker change , the things that were mentioned . ok , now i wanted to mention the , um , teleconference i had with , uh , jonathan fiscus . we spoke for an hour and a half and , um , had an awful lot of things in common . grad h: hmm . postdoc g: he , um , um , he in indicated to me that they 've that he 's been , uh , looking , uh , uh , spending a lot of time with i 'm not quite sure the connection , but spending a lot of time with the atlas system . and i guess that i mean , i i need to read up on that . and there 's a web site that has lots of papers . but it looks to me like that 's the name that has developed for the system that bird and liberman developed { comment } for the annotated graphs approach . grad h: mm - hmm . postdoc g: so what he wants me to do and what we what we will do and uh , is to provide them with the u already transcribed meeting for him to be able to experiment with in this atlas system . and they do have some sort of software , at least that 's my impression , related to atlas and that he wants to experiment with taking our data and putting them in that format , and see how that works out . i i i explained to him in in detail the , uh , conventions that we 're using here in this in this word level transcript . and , um , you know , i i explained , you know , the reasons that that we were not coding more elaborately and and the focus on reliability . he expressed a lot of interest in reliability . it 's like he 's he 's really up on these things . he 's he 's very um , independently he asked , `` well what about reliability ? `` so , he 's interested in the consistency of the encoding and that sort of thing . ok , um phd a: sorry , can you explain what the atlas i 'm not familiar with this atlas system . postdoc g: well , you know , at this point i think uh , well adam 's read more in more detail than i have on this . i need to acquaint myself more with it . but , um , there there is a way of viewing uh , whenever you have coding categories , um , and you 're dealing with uh , a taxonomy , then you can have branches that that have alternative , uh , choices that you could use for each each of them . and it just ends up looking like a graphical representation . grad h: is is is atlas the his annotated transcription graph stuff ? i do n't remember the acronym . the the one the what i think you 're referring to , they they have this concept of an an annotated transcription graph representation . phd a: oh . oh . postdoc g: yeah . grad h: and that 's basically what i based the format that i did i based it on their work almost directly , in combination with the tei stuff . and so it 's very , very similar . and so it 's it 's a data representation and a set of tools for manipulating transcription graphs of various types . phd e: is this the project that 's sort of , uh , between , uh , nist and and , uh , a couple of other places ? postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd e: the the postdoc g: including ldc . phd e: yeah , postdoc g: i think so . grad h: yep . phd e: y right , ok . postdoc g: mm - hmm . then there 's their web site that has lots of papers . and i looked through them and they mainly had to do with this , um , this , uh , tree structure , uh , annotated tree diagram thing . phd a: mmm . postdoc g: so , um , um and , you know , in terms of like the conventions that i 'm a that i 've adopted , it there there 's no conflict at all . grad h: right . postdoc g: and he was , you know , very interested . and , `` oh , and how 'd you handle this ? `` and i said , `` well , you know , this way `` and and and we had a really nice conversation . um , ok , now i also wanted to say in a different a different direction is , brian kingsbury . so , um , i corresponded briefly with him . i , uh , c i he still has an account here . i told him he could ssh on and use multi - trans , and have a look at the already done , uh , transcription . and he and he did . and what he said was that , um , what they 'll be providing is will not be as fine grained in terms of the time information . and , um , that 's , uh you know , i need to get back to him and and , uh , you know , explore that a little bit more and see what they 'll be giving us in specific , phd a: hmm . phd e: the p the people postdoc g: but i just have n't had time yet . phd e: the the folks that they 're , uh , subcontracting out the transcription to , are they like court reporters postdoc g: sorry , what ? yes . phd e: or postdoc g: apparently well , i get the sense they 're kind of like that . like it 's like a pool of of somewhat uh , secretarial i do n't think that they 're court reporters . i do n't think they have the special keyboards and that and that type of training . phd e: mm - hmm . postdoc g: i i get the sense they 're more secretarial . and that , um , uh , what they 're doing is giving them phd e: hmm . like medical transcriptionist type people grad h: nu - it 's mostly it 's for their speech recognition products , phd e: but are n't they 're postdoc g: yep . grad h: that they 've hired these people to do . phd e: oh , so they 're hiring them , they 're coming . it 's not a service they send the tapes out to . grad h: well they they do send it out but my understanding is that that 's all this company does is transcriptions for ibm for their speech product . phd e: ah ! oh . ok . i gotcha . grad h: so most of it 's viavoice , people reading their training material for that . phd e: i see . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd e: i see . postdoc g: up to now it 's been monologues , uh , as far my understood . grad h: yep , exactly . postdoc g: and and what they 're doing is phd e: mm - hmm . grad h: yep . postdoc g: brian himself downloaded so so , um , adam sent them a cd and brian himself downloaded uh , cuz , you know , i mean , we wanted to have it so that they were in familiar f terms with what they wanted to do . he downloaded from the cd onto audio tapes . and apparently he did it one channel per audio tape . so each of these people is transcribing from one channel . grad h: right . phd e: oh . postdoc g: and then what he 's going to do is check it , a before they go be beyond the first one . check it and , you know , adjust it , and all that . phd e: so each person gets one of these channels grad h: right . professor b: so if they hear something off in the distance they do n't they just go phd e: ok . postdoc g: i i do n't know . grad h: well , but that 's ok , because , you know , you 'll do all them and then combine them . phd e: but there could be problems , right ? with that . postdoc g: i have t i , you know i phd c: yep . postdoc g: i think it would be difficult to do it that way . i really phd a: yeah . phd e: well if you 're tran if you got that channel right there postdoc g: d uh , in my case phd c: yeah . grad h: no , no . we 're talking about close talking , not the not the desktop . phd d: no , close talk . professor b: are you ? postdoc g: yes . well i th i think so . grad h: i sure hope so . it 'd be really foolish to do otherwise . postdoc g: yeah , i i would think that it would be kind of hard to come out with yeah . phd a: i i think it 's sort of hard just playing the you know , just having played the individual files . and i i mean , i know you . i know what your voice sounds like . i 'm sort of familiar with phd c: yeah . phd a: uh , it 's pretty hard to follow , especially grad h: one side . phd a: there are a lot of words that are so reduced phonetically that make sense when you know what the person was saying before . postdoc g: i agree . phd c: yeah . phd e: yeah , that 's phd a: uh , it sort of depends where you are in postdoc g: and especially since a lot of these phd d: yeah . grad h: but i mean we had this we 've had this discussion many times . postdoc g: yeah , we have . grad h: and the answer is we do n't actually know the answer because we have n't tried both ways . postdoc g: well , except i can say that my transcribers use the mixed signal mostly grad h: so . mm - hmm . phd a: mm - hmm . phd e: right . postdoc g: unless there 's a huge disparity in terms of the volume on on the mix . in which case , you know , they they would n't be able to catch anything except the prominent { comment } channel , grad h: right . phd c: yeah . postdoc g: then they 'll switch between . grad h: well i think that that might change if you wanted really fine time markings . postdoc g: but but really well , ok . grad h: so . professor b: but they 're not giving f really fine time markings . postdoc g: yeah , well phd a: actually , are th so are they giving any time markings ? grad h: right . phd a: in other words , if postdoc g: well , i have to ask him . phd a: yeah . postdoc g: and that 's that 's my email to him . that needs to be forthcoming . phd a: cuz ok . postdoc g: but but the , uh i did want to say that it 's hard to follow one channel of a conversation even if you know the people , and if you 're dealing furthermore with highly abstract network concepts you 've never heard of so , you know , one of these people was was transcribing the , uh , networks group talk and she said , `` i do n't really know what a lot of these abbreviations are , `` `` but i just put them in parentheses cuz that 's the that 's the convention and i just `` cuz you know , if you do n't know grad h: oh , i 'd be curious to to look at that . phd e: just out of curiosity , i mean grad h: they also all have h heavy accents . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . postdoc g: yeah . grad h: the networks group meetings are all phd e: given all of the effort that is going on here in transcribing why do we have i b m doing it ? why not just do it all ourselves ? professor b: um , it 's historical . i mean , uh , some point ago we thought that uh , it `` boy , we 'd really have to ramp up to do that `` , phd c: uh - huh . phd d: no , just professor b: you know , like we just did , and , um , here 's , uh , a a , uh , collaborating institution that 's volunteered to do it . phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: so , that was a contribution they could make . uh in terms of time , money , you know ? phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: and it still might be a good thing phd e: i 'm just wondering now phd a: actu yeah , mar - mari asked me the same question as sort of professor b: but phd e: well , i 'm i 'm wondering now if it 's grad h: well we can talk about more details later . phd a: um , you know , yeah , whether to professor b: yeah . yeah . yeah , so . phd e: hmm . professor b: we 'll see . i mean , i think , th you know , they they they 've proceeded along a bit . let 's see what comes out of it , and and , uh , you know , have some more discussions with them . postdoc g: mm - hmm . it 's very a real benefit having brian involved because of his knowledge of what the how the data need to be used and so what 's useful to have in the format . grad h: yeah . professor b: mm - hmm . yeah . grad h: so , um , liz , with with the sri recognizer , { comment } can it make use of some time marks ? phd a: ok , so this is a , um , grad h: i i guess i do n't know what that means . phd a: and actually i should say this is what don has b uh , he 's already been really helpful in , uh , chopping up these so so first of all you um , i mean , for the sri front - end , we really need to chop things up into pieces that are f not too huge . um , but second of all , uh in general because some of these channels , i 'd say , like , i do n't know , at least half of them probably { comment } on average are g are ha are have a lot of cross - ta sorry , some of the segments have a lot of cross - talk . um , it 's good to get sort of short segments if you 're gon na do recognition , especially forced alignment . so , uh , don has been taking a first stab actually using jane 's first the fir the meeting that jane transcribed which we did have some problems with , and thilo , uh , i think told me why this was , but that people were switching microphones around { comment } in the very beginning , so the sri re phd c: no , th yeah . no . they they were not switching them but what they were they were adjusting them , phd a: and they they were not phd c: so . grad f: mmm . grad h: adjusting . oh . phd a: yeah . phd c: and aft after a minute or so it 's it 's way better . phd a: so we have to sort of normalize { comment } the front - end and so forth , and have these small segments . phd c: so yep . phd a: so we 've taken that and chopped it into pieces based always on your your , um , cuts that you made on the mixed signal . and so that every every speaker has the same cuts . and if they have speech in it we run it through . and if they do n't have speech in it we do n't run it through . and we base that knowledge on the transcription . grad h: on just on the marks . right ? phd a: um , the problem is if we have no time marks , then for forced alignment we actually do n't know where you know , in the signal the transcriber heard that word . and so grad h: oh , i see , phd a: i mean , if if it 's a whole conversation and we get a long , uh , you know , par paragraph of of talk , grad h: it 's for the length . i see . phd a: uh , i do n't know how they do this . um , we actually do n't know which piece goes where . grad h: i understand . phd a: and , um , i think with phd e: well you would need to like a forced alignment before you did the chopping , right ? phd a: no , we used the fact that so when jane transcribes them the way she has transcribers doing this , whether it 's with the pre - segmentation or not , grad h: it 's already chunked . phd a: they have a chunk and then they transcribes { comment } the words in the chunk . and maybe they choose the chunk or now they use a pre - segmentation and then correct it if necessary . but there 's first a chunk and then a transcription . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: then a chunk , then a transcription . that 's great , cuz the recognizer can grad h: uh , it 's all pretty good sized for the recognizer also . phd a: right , and it it helps that it 's made based on sort of heuristics and human ear i think . postdoc g: good . oh good . phd a: th - but there 's going to be a real problem , uh , even if we chop up based on speech silence these , uh , the transcripts from i b m , we do n't actually know where the words were , which segment they belonged to . grad h: right . phd a: so that 's sort of what i 'm worried about right now . phd e: why not do a a a forced alignment ? grad h: that 's what she 's saying , is that you ca n't . phd a: if you do a forced alignment on something really grad h: got uh six sixty minutes of phd a: well even if you do it on something really long you need to know you can always chop it up but you need to have a reference of which words went with which , uh , chop . postdoc g: now was n't i thought that one of the proposals was that ibm was going to do an initial forced alignment , phd a: so postdoc g: after they grad h: yeah , but professor b: i i think that they are , grad h: we 'll have to talk to brian . professor b: um , yeah , i 'm sure they will and so we we have to have a dialogue with them about it . phd a: yeah . professor b: i mean , it sounds like liz has some concerns phd a: maybe they have some you know , maybe actually there is some , even if they 're not fine grained , maybe the transcribers professor b: and phd a: uh , i do n't know , maybe it 's saved out in pieces or or something . that would help . postdoc g: yeah . phd a: but , uh , it 's just an unknown right now . postdoc g: yeah . i i need to to write to him . phd a: so . postdoc g: i just you know , it 's like i got over - taxed with the timing . phd a: right . but the it is true that the segments i have n't tried the segments that thilo gave you but the segments that in your first meeting are great . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: i mean , that 's that 's a good length . postdoc g: a good size . good . phd a: right , cuz postdoc g: well , i i was thinking it would be fun to to uh , uh , if if you would n't mind , { comment } to give us a pre - segmentation . phd a: y yeah . phd c: yeah . postdoc g: uh , maybe you have one already of that first m of the meeting that uh , the first transcribed meeting , the one that i transcribed . phd c: um , i 'm sure i have some postdoc g: do you have a could you generate a pre - segmentation ? grad h: february sixteenth i think . phd c: but but that 's the one where we 're , um , trai training on , so that 's a little bit grad h: oh . postdoc g: oh , i see . phd c: it 's a little bit at odd to postdoc g: oh , darn . of course , of course , of course . yeah , ok . phd c: yeah . phd a: and actually as you get transcripts just , um , for new meetings , { comment } um , we can try postdoc g: uh - huh . phd a: i mean , the the more data we have to try the the alignments on , um , the better . so it 'd be good for just to know as transcriptions are coming through the pipeline from the transcribers , just to sort of we 're playing around with sort of uh , parameters f on the recognizer , postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: cuz that would be helpful . especially as you get , en more voices . postdoc g: excellent , good . phd a: the first meeting had i think just four people , phd c: four speakers , yeah . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . postdoc g: yeah , liz and i spoke d w at some length on tuesday and and i and i was planning to do just a a preliminary look over of the two that are finished and then give them to you . phd a: oh , great , great . postdoc g: yeah . phd a: so . professor b: that 's great . i guess the other thing , i i ca n't remember if we discussed this in the meeting but , uh , i know you and i talked about this a little bit , there was an issue of , uh , suppose we get in the , uh , i guess it 's enviable position although maybe it 's just saying where the weak link is in the chain , uh , where we we , uh uh , we have all the data transcribed and we have these transcribers and we were we 're the we 're still a bit slow on feeding at that point we 've caught up and the the the , uh , the weak link is is recording meetings . ok , um , two questions come , is you know what how how do we uh , it 's not really a problem at the moment cuz we have n't reached that point but how do we step out the recorded meetings ? and the other one is , um , uh , is there some good use that we can make of the transcribers to do other things ? so , um , i i ca n't remember how much we talked about this in this meeting but there was grad h: we had spoken with them about it . postdoc g: and there is one use that that also we discussed which was when , uh , dave finishes the and maybe it 's already finished the the modification to multi - trans which will allow fine grained encoding of overlaps . uh , then it would be very these people would be very good to shift over to finer grain encoding of overlaps . it 's just a matter of , you know , providing so if right now you have two overlapping segments in the same time bin , well with with the improvement in the database in in the , uh , sorry , in the interface , it 'd be possible to , um , you know , just do a click and drag thing , and get the uh , the specific place of each of those , the time tag associated with the beginning and end of of each segment . professor b: right , so i think we talking about three level three things . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: one one was uh , we had s had some discussion in the past about some very high level labelings , postdoc g: yeah . the types of overlaps professor b: types of overlaps , and so forth that that someone could do . second was , uh , somewhat lower level postdoc g: mm - hmm . professor b: just doing these more precise timings . and the third one is is , uh , just a completely wild hair brained idea that i have which is that , um , if , uh if we have time and people are able to do it , to take some subset of the data and do some very fine grained analysis of the speech . for instance , uh , marking in some overlapping potentially overlapping fashion , uh , the value of , uh , ar articulatory features . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: you know , just sort of say , ok , it 's voiced from here to here , there 's it 's nasal from here to here , and so forth . um , as opposed to doing phonetic uh , you know , phonemic and the phonetic analysis , grad h: professor b: and , uh , assuming , uh , articulatory feature values for those those things . um , obviously that 's extremely time - consuming . uh phd e: that would be really valuable i think . professor b: but , uh , we could do it on some small subset . postdoc g: also if you 're dealing with consonants that would be easier than vowels , would n't it ? i mean , i would think that that , uh , being able to code that there 's a a fricative extending from here to here would be a lot easier than classifying precisely which vowel that was . grad h: which one . phd a: mmm . professor b: mm - hmm . postdoc g: i think vowels vowels are i think harder . professor b: well , yeah , phd c: yeah . professor b: but i think also it 's just the issue that that when you look at the u w u u when you look at switchboard for instance very close up there are places where whether it 's a consonant or a vowel you still have trouble calling it a particular phone postdoc g: mm - hmm . professor b: at that point postdoc g: mm - hmm , ok . grad h: yeah , but but just saying what the professor b: because it 's you know , there 's this movement from here to here postdoc g: yeah , i 'm sure . uh , yeah , i i know . phd a: right . professor b: and and and it 's so i phd e: you 're saying r sort of remove the high level constraints and go bottom - up . professor b: yeah , describe describe it . phd e: then just say grad h: yep , just features . phd a: mmm . professor b: now i 'm suggesting articulatory features . maybe there 's there 's even a better way to do it but it but but that 's , you know , sort of a traditional way of describing these things , phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: um , and uh , i mean , actually this might be a g neat thing to talk to postdoc g: that 's nice . phd e: acoustic features versus psychological categories . professor b: sort of . i mean , it 's still phd e: yeah . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: some sort of categories but but something that allows for overlapping change of these things and then this would give some more ground work for people who were building statistical models that allowed for overlapping changes , different timing changes as opposed to just `` click , you 're now in this state , which corresponds to this speech sound `` and so on . phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: so this is like gestural uh , these g professor b: yeah , something like that . phd a: right . ok . professor b: i mean , actually if we get into that it might be good to , uh , uh , haul john ohala into this phd a: right . professor b: and ask his his views on it i think . grad h: yeah . phd a: but is is the goal there to have this on meeting data , postdoc g: excellent . phd a: like so that you can do far field studies { comment } of those gestures or um , or is it because you think there 's a different kind of actual production in meetings { comment } that people use ? or ? professor b: no , i think i think it 's for for for that purpose i 'm just viewing meetings as being a a neat way to get people talking naturally . and then you have i and then and then it 's natural in all senses , phd e: just a source of data ? phd a: i see . professor b: in the sense that you have microphones that are at a distance that you know , one might have , and you have the close mikes , and you have people talking naturally . and the overlap is just indicative of the fact that people are talking naturally , phd a: uh - huh . phd d: yeah . phd a: right . professor b: right ? so so i think that given that it 's that kind of corpus , phd d: yeah . professor b: if it 's gon na be a very useful corpus um , if you say w ok , we 've limited the use by some of our , uh , uh , censored choices , we do n't have the video , we do n't and so forth , but there 's a lot of use that we could make of it by expanding the annotation choices . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh , most of the things we 've talked about have been fairly high level , and being kind of a bottom - up person i thought maybe we 'd , do some of the others . grad h: hmm . phd a: right . yeah , that would be good . postdoc g: it 's a nice balance . professor b: yeah . postdoc g: that would be really nice to offer those things with that wide range . phd a: right . professor b: yeah and hopefully someone would make use of it . postdoc g: really nice . professor b: i mean , people did n't postdoc g: yeah . professor b: uh , i mean , people have made a lot of use of of timit and , uh w due to its markings , and then the switchboard transcription thing , well i think has been very useful for a lot of people . grad h: right . phd a: that 's true . professor b: so phd a: i guess i wanted to , um , sort of make a pitch for trying to collect more meetings . postdoc g: cool . phd a: um , professor b: yeah . phd a: i actually i talked to chuck fillmore and i think they 've what , vehemently said no before but this time he was n't vehement and he said you know , `` well , liz , come to the meeting tomorrow professor b: yeah . phd a: and try to convince people `` . so i 'm gon na try . go to their meeting tomorrow and see if we can try , uh , to convince them postdoc g: mm - hmm . good . professor b: cuz they have something like three or four different meetings , phd a: because they have and they have very interesting meetings from the point of view of a very different type of of talk than we have here professor b: right ? postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd d: talk phd a: and definitely than the front end meeting , probably . um phd e: you mean in terms of the topic topics ? phd a: well , yes and in terms of the the fact that they 're describing abstract things and , uh , just dialogue - wise , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: right . phd e: mm - hmm . phd a: um , so i 'll try . and then the other thing is , i do n't know if this is at all useful , but i asked lila if i can maybe go around and talk to the different departments in this building to see if there 's any groups that , for a free lunch , professor b: yes . phd a: if we can still offer that , might be willing professor b: great . grad h: you mean non - icsi ? phd a: non - icsi , non - academic , grad h: yeah , i guess you you can try phd a: you know , like government people , grad h: but phd a: i do n't know . grad h: the problem is so much of their stuff is confidential . phd a: so . phd d: yeah . postdoc g: yeah . grad h: it would be very hard for them . phd a: is is it in these departments ? phd d: yeah . postdoc g: also it does seem like it takes us way out of the demographic . i mean , it seems like we we had this idea before of having like linguistics students brought down for free lunches grad h: well , tha i think that 's her point . postdoc g: and that 's a nice idea . phd a: right , and then we could also we might try advertising again because i think it 'd be good if if we can get a few different sort of non - internal types of meetings postdoc g: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd a: and just also more data . so . phd e: does does john ohala have weekly phonetics lab meetings ? postdoc g: mm - hmm . grad h: and i think , uh , if we could get phd a: so i actually wrote to him and he answered , `` great , that sounds really interesting `` . but i never heard back because we did n't actually advertise openly . we a i mean w i told i d asked him privately . um , and it is a little bit of a trek for campus folks . postdoc g: mm - hmm . grad h: yeah . you might give them a free lunch . phd a: um , so it 's still worthwhile . grad h: but , um , it would be nice if we got someone other than me who knew how to set it up and could do the recording phd a: so grad h: so u i did n't have to do it each time . phd a: exactly , and and postdoc g: yeah . that 's right . phd a: and i was thinking professor b: he - he 's supposed he 's supposed to be trained to do it . phd a: yeah . plus we could also get you know , a s a student . grad h: ok , next week you 're going to do it all . phd d: yeah . phd a: and i 'm willing to try to learn . i mean , i 'm i would do my best . um , the other thing is that there was a number of things at the transcription side that , um , transcribers can do , like dialogue act tagging , grad h: it 's not that hard . phd a: disfluency tagging , um , things that are in the speech that are actually something we 're y { comment } working on for language modeling . and mari 's also interested in it , andreas as well . so if you wan na process a utterance and the first thing they say is , `` well `` , and that `` well `` is coded as some kind of interrupt u tag . uh , and things like that , um , th postdoc g: of course some of that can be li done lexically . phd a: a lot of it can be done postdoc g: and i also they are doing disfluency tagging to some degree already . phd a: great . so a a lot of this kind of postdoc g: yeah . phd a: i think there 's a second pass and i do n't really know what would exist in it . but there 's definitely a second pass worth doing to maybe encode some kinds of , you know , is it a question or not , postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: or um , that maybe these transcribers could do . so yeah . postdoc g: they 'd be really good . they 're they 're very they 're very consistent . phd a: that 'd be great . professor b: mm - hmm . postdoc g: uh , i wanted to whi while we 're uh , so , to return just briefly to this question of more meeting data , um i have two questions . one of them is , um , jerry feldman 's group , they they , uh , are they i know that they recorded one meeting . are they willing ? professor b: i think they 're open to it . i think , you know , all these things are phd a: oh , yeah . professor b: i think there 's we should go beyond , uh , icsi but , i mean , there 's a lot of stuff happening at icsi that we 're not getting now that we could . phd a: oh , that we could . professor b: so it 's just postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: ok . i thought that all these people had sort of said `` no `` twice already . professor b: yeah . so the phd a: if that 's not the case then professor b: no , no . no . so th there was the thing in fillmore 's group but even there he had n't what he 'd said `` no `` to was for the main meeting . but they have several smaller meetings a week , grad h: so . professor b: and , uh , the notion was raised before that that could happen . and it just , you know it just did n't come together phd a: just ok . phd e: well , and and the other thing too is when they originally said `` no `` they did n't know about this post - editing capability thing . professor b: but phd a: right . postdoc g: oh . professor b: yeah . yeah . phd a: right . that was a big fear . phd e: so . postdoc g: that 's important . professor b: yeah , so i mean there 's possibilities there . i think jerry 's group , yes . phd a: ok . professor b: uh , there 's there 's , uh , the networks group , uh , i do n't do they still meeting regularly or ? grad h: well , i do n't know if they meet regularly or not but they are no longer recording . professor b: but i mean , ha ha have they said they do n't want to anymore or ? grad h: um , ugh , what was his name ? professor b: uh , i i postdoc g: joe sokol ? grad h: yeah . professor b: yeah . grad h: when with him gone , it sorta trickled off . professor b: ok , so they 're down to three or four people grad h: they and they stopped yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: but the thing is three or four people is ok . grad h: yep . postdoc g: we might be able to get the administration grad h: well he was sort of my contact , so i just need to find out who 's running it now . professor b: ok . grad h: so . postdoc g: i see that lila has a luncheon meeting in here periodically . phd a: yeah , i mean , it one thing that would be nice postdoc g: i do n't know phd a: and this it sounds bizarre but , i 'd really like to look at to get some meetings where there 's a little bit of heated discussion , like ar arguments and or emotion , and things like that . and so i was thinking if there 's any like berkeley political groups or something . i mean , that 'd be perfect . some group , `` yes , we must `` grad h: who 's willing to get recorded and distributed ? phd a: well , you know , something phd c: yeah . grad f: yeah , i do n't think the more political argumentative ones would be willing to phd a: um professor b: yeah , with with with potential use from the defense department . phd d: yeah . phd a: well , ok . professor b: yeah . phd a: no , but maybe stu student , uh , groups or , um , film - makers , or som something a little bit colorful . phd c: yeah . grad f: yeah . exactly . postdoc g: yeah . grad h: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah . yeah , th there 's a problem there in terms of , uh , the um commercial value of of st uh , postdoc g: yeah , of course there is this problem though , that if we give them the chance to excise later we e might end up with like five minutes out of a f { comment } of m one hour phd d: film - maker . grad h: of beeps , phd c: yeah . yeah . grad h: yeah . phd a: and i do n't mean that they 're angry phd d: is postdoc g: of { comment } yes . really . phd a: but just something with some more variation in prosodic contours and so forth would be neat . so if anyone has ideas , i 'm willing to do the leg work to go try to talk to people but i do n't really know which groups are worth pursuing . postdoc g: well there was this k p f a grad h: no that 's postdoc g: but ok . grad h: legal . postdoc g: ok , ok . professor b: it it it it turned out to be a bit of a problem . phd a: or postdoc g: and i had one other one other aspect of this which is , um , uh , uh , jonathan fiscus expressed primar uh y a major interest in having meetings which were all english speakers . now he was n't trying to shape us in terms of what we gather professor b: mm - hmm . postdoc g: but that 's what he wanted me to show him . so i 'm giving him our , um our initial meeting because he asked for all english . and i think we do n't have a lot of all english meetings right now . professor b: of all all nat all native speakers . phd e: did he mean , uh did he mean and non - british ? grad h: well phd c: the all native . postdoc g: that 's what i mean , yeah . grad h: well if he meant and non - british i think we have zero . postdoc g: he does n't care . no . eh , well , british is ok . phd e: he said british was ok ? postdoc g: but but sure , sure , sure . professor b: why ? grad h: british is english ? phd c: postdoc g: yeah . different varieties of english . phd c: ooo , ooo . professor b: well , i do n't i do n't i do n't think if he did n't say that postdoc g: native speaking . native speaking english . grad h: i bet he meant native speaking american . postdoc g: yes . professor b: i bet he did . phd c: american english ? postdoc g: oh , really . grad h: so , why would he care ? phd e: knowing the application phd a: that 's professor b: i remember wh i i remember a study phd a: i was thinking , knowing the , uh , n national institute of standards , it is all professor b: i remember a study that bbn did where they trained on this was in wall street journal days or something , they trained on american english and then they tested on , uh , different native speakers from different areas . and , uh , uh , the worst match was people whose native tongue was mandarin chinese . the second worst was british english . postdoc g: that 's funny . professor b: so h it 's , you know , t postdoc g: alright . and so that would make sense . professor b: the the the german was much better , phd c: ooo , ooo . postdoc g: i did n't have the context of that . professor b: it was swiss w yeah , so it 's so i think , you know , if he 's if he 's thinking in terms of recognition kind of technology i i i think he would probably want , uh american english , postdoc g: all america , ok . grad h: i wonder if we have any . professor b: yeah . it it yeah , unless we 're gon na train with a whole bunch of postdoc g: i think that the feldman 's meetings tend to be more that way , are n't they ? i mean , i sort of feel like they have professor b: i think so , grad h: maybe . phd a: yeah , professor b: yeah . grad h: maybe . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . phd d: mmm . grad h: and maybe there are a few of with us where it was professor b: yeah . grad h: you know , dan was n't there and before jose started coming , professor b: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad h: and professor b: it 's pretty tough , uh , this group . yeah . grad h: yeah . phd c: mmm . professor b: so , uh , what about what about people who involved in some artistic endeavor ? phd d: yeah . professor b: i mean , film - making or something like that . phd a: exactly , that 's what i was professor b: you 'd think like they would be phd d: a film - maker . phd a: something where there there is actually discussion where there 's no right or wrong answer but but it 's a matter of opinion kind of thing . uh , anyway , if you if you have ideas postdoc g: it 's be fun . grad h: rasta . plp . rasta . plp . phd d: yes . grad f: we can just discu we can just have a political discussion one day . phd a: yeah , we could phd e: a any department that calls itself science phd d: department . grad f: uh , i could make that pretty phd d: yeah . grad h: well , like computer science . phd d: computer sci grad h: that postdoc g: we could get julia child . i know . phd a: i 'm i 'm actually serious grad h: that 's phd a: because , uh , you know , we have the set up here grad h: got a ticket . professor b: yeah , i know you are . phd a: and and that that has a chance to give us some very interesting fun data . so if anyone has ideas , phd d: yeah . phd a: if you know any groups that are m you know , professor b: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad h: well i had asked some some of the students at the business school . phd a: student groups c like clubs , things like that . grad f: i know grad h: i could phd a: not not professor b: put a little ad up saying , `` come here and argue `` . phd a: yeah . `` if you 're really angry at someone use our conference room . `` grad h: the business school . uh , the business school might be good . i actually spoke with some students up there phd a: oh , ok . grad h: and they they they expressed willingness back when they thought they would be doing more stuff with speech . phd a: really . grad h: but when they lost interest in speech they also stopped answering my email about other stuff , so . phd d: hmm . phd a: or people who are really h professor b: they could have a discussion about te grad f: i grad h: we should probably bleep that out . professor b: about about tax cuts or something . grad f: i heard that at cal tech they have a special room someone said that they had a special room to get all your frustrations out that you can go to and like throw things and break things . professor b: yeah , now that is not actually what we grad f: so we can like post a grad h: th - that 's not what we want . grad f: no , not to that extent phd a: well , far field mikes can pick up where they threw stuff on the wall . grad f: but , um . yeah . professor b: yeah , but we do n't want them to throw the far field mikes is the thing . phd a: oh . yeah , right . grad h: that 's right . phd d: the fa grad f: yeah . phd d: grad h: `` please throw everything in that direction . `` professor b: yeah . anyway . grad h: padded cell . postdoc g: it 'd be fun to get like a a p visit from the grad h: there was a dorm room at tech that , uh , someone had coated the walls and the ceiling , and , uh , the floor with mattresses . grad f: mmm . grad h: the entire room . professor b: i had as my fourth thing here processing of wave forms . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: what did we mean by that ? remember @ @ ? grad h: uh , liz wanted to talk about methods of improving accuracy by doing pre - processing . postdoc g: pre - processing . phd a: well i think that that was just sort of i i already asked thilo professor b: oh , you already did that . phd a: but that , um , it would be helpful if i can stay in the loop somehow with , um , people who are doing any kind of post - processing , whether it 's to separate speakers or to improve the signal - to - noise ratio , or both , um , that we can sort of try out as we 're running recognition . um , so , i is that who else is work i guess dan ellis and you phd c: dan , yeah . professor b: yeah , and dave uh gel - gelbart again , grad h: yep . phd a: and dave . phd c: yep . phd a: ok . phd d: yeah . professor b: he 's he 's interested in in fact we 're look starting to look at some echo cancellation kind of things . phd a: ok . professor b: which uh grad h: i am not sure how much that 's an issue with the close talking mikes , professor b: hmm ? grad h: but who knows ? professor b: well , let 's w i is n't that what what you want phd a: i do n't know . i 'm bad professor b: t no , so no , i w wha what you what you want when you 're saying improving the wave form you want the close talking microphone to be better . phd a: it 's like { comment } like professor b: right ? grad h: right . professor b: and the question is to w to what extent is it getting hurt by , uh by any room acoustics or is it just uh , given that it 's close it 's not a problem ? phd a: it does n't seem like big room acoustics problems to my ear professor b: uh phd a: but i 'm not an expert . it seems like a problem with cross - talk . professor b: ok , so it 's phd c: yeah . grad h: e i bet with the lapel mike there 's plenty , uh , room acoustic phd a: that that may be true . grad h: but i i think the rest is cross - talk . phd a: but i do n't know how good it can get either by those the those methods grad h: yeah . phd a: that 's true . professor b: ok . grad h: so i i think it 's just , phd a: oh , i do n't know . grad h: yeah , what you said , cross - talk . phd a: all i meant is just that as sort of as this pipeline of research is going on we 're also experimenting with different asr , uh , techniques . grad h: mm - hmm . phd a: and so it 'd be w good to know about it . phd e: so the problem is like , uh , on the microphone of somebody who 's not talking they 're picking up signals from other people { comment } and that 's causing problems ? phd a: r right , although if they 're not talking , using the the inhouse transcriptions , were sort of o k because the t no one transcribed any words there and we throw it out . phd e: mm - hmm . phd a: but if they 're talking at all and they 're not talking the whole time , so you get some speech and then a `` mm - hmm `` , and some more speech , so that whole thing is one chunk . and the person in the middle who said only a little bit is picking up the speech around it , that 's where it 's a big problem . postdoc g: you know , this does like seem like it would relate to some of what jose 's been working on as well , the encoding of the phd d: yeah . postdoc g: and and he also , he was phd a: the energy , phd d: yeah , phd a: right . exactly . phd d: energy . postdoc g: i was t i was trying to remember , you have this interface where you i you ha you showed us one time on your laptop that you you had different visual displays as speech and nonspeech events . phd d: yeah , c yeah . may i i only display the different colors for the different situation . but , eh , for me and for my problems , is uh is enough . because , eh , it 's possible , eh , eh , in a simp sample view , uh , to , nnn , to compare with c with the segment , the the kind of assessment what happened with the the different parameters . and only with a different bands of color for the , uh , few situation , eh , i consider for acoustic event is enough to @ @ . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd d: i i i see that , eh , you are considering now , eh , a very sophisticated , eh , ehm , eh , @ @ { comment } set of , eh , graphic s eh , eh , ehm , si symbols to to transcribe . no ? because , uh , before , you you are talking about the the possibility to include in the transcriber program eh , um , a set of symbols , of graphic symbol to t to mark the different situations during the transcription postdoc g: oh , i w uh - huh . phd d: during the transcription . no ? postdoc g: well , you 're saying so , uh , symbols for differences between laugh , and sigh , and and and slam the door and stuff ? phd d: yeah . yeah , yeah . the s the symbols , you you talk of before . postdoc g: or some other kind of thing ? phd d: no ? to to mark postdoc g: well , i would n't say symbols so much . the the main change that i that i see in the interface is is just that we 'll be able to more finely c uh , time things . phd d: yeah . yeah . postdoc g: but i i also st there was another aspect of your work that i was thinking about when i was talking to you phd a: hmm . postdoc g: which is that it sounded to me , liz , as though you and , uh , maybe i did n't q understand this , but it sounded to me as though part of the analysis that you 're doing involves taking segments which are of a particular type and putting them together . phd d: yeah . postdoc g: and th so if you have like a p a s you know , speech from one speaker , then you cut out the part that 's not that speaker , phd a: mm - hmm . postdoc g: and you combine segments from that same speaker to { comment } and run them through the recognizer . is that right ? phd a: well we try to find as close of start and end time of as we can to the speech from an individual speaker , postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: because then we we 're more guaranteed that the recognizer will for the forced alignment which is just to give us the time boundaries , because from those time boundaries then the plan is to compute prosodic features . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: and the sort of more space you have that is n't the thing you 're trying to align the more errors we have . um , so , you know , that that it would help to have either pre - processing of a signal that creates very good signal - to - noise ratio , postdoc g: mm - hmm . cuz i ok . phd a: which i do n't know how possible this is for the lapel , um , or to have very to have closer , um , time you know , synch times , basically , around the speech that gets transcribed in it , or both . and it 's just sort of a open world right now of exploring that . so i just wanted to see , you know , on the transcribing end from here things look good . uh , the ibm one is more it 's an open question right now . and then the issue of like global processing of some signal and then , you know , before we chop it up is is yet another way we can improve things in that . phd e: what about increasing the flexibility of the alignment ? postdoc g: ok . phd e: do you remember that thing that michael finka did ? phd a: mm - hmm . phd e: that experiment he did a while back ? phd a: right . you can , um the problem is just that the acoustic when the signal - to - noise ratio is too low , um , you you 'll get , a uh an alignment with the wrong duration pattern or it phd e: oh , so that 's the problem , is the the signal - to - noise ratio . phd a: yeah . it 's not the fact that you have like i mean , what he did is allow you to have , uh , words that were in another segment move over to the at the edges of of segmentations . phd e: mm - hmm . or even words inserted that were n't were n't there . phd a: right , things things near the boundaries where if you got your alignment wrong phd e: mm - hmm . phd a: cuz what they had done there is align and then chop . phd e: mm - hmm . phd a: um , and this problem is a little bit j more global . it 's that there are problems even in inside the alignments , uh , because of the fact that there 's enough acoustic signal there t for the recognizer to to eat , as part of a word . and it tends to do that . s so , uh , phd d: yeah . phd a: but we probably will have to do something like that in addition . anyway . so , yeah , bottom bottom line is just i wanted to make sure i can be aware of whoever 's working on these signal - processing techniques for , uh , detecting energies , phd d: yeah . phd a: because that that 'll really help us . professor b: o k , uh tea has started out there i suggest we c run through our digits and , postdoc g: ok . professor b: uh , so , ok , we 're done .

to achieve greater uniformity in across-speaker recording conditions , the group decided to purchase three additional head-mounted microphones .

what was said about ibm transcription ? </s> professor b: are we on ? we 're on . ok . phd e: is it on ? phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah . ok , phd d: one , two u ok . phd a: why is it so cold in here ? professor b: so , uh , we have n't sent around the agenda . so , i uh , any agenda items anybody has , wants to talk about , what 's going on ? postdoc g: i c i could talk about the meeting . grad h: does everyone has everyone met don ? postdoc g: yeah . professor b: it 's on ? phd c: now , yeah . phd d: yeah . grad h: yeah ? ok . phd d: yeah . grad f: hello . professor b: ok , agenda item one , phd d: we went grad f: yeah . professor b: introduce don . ok , we did that . uh phd a: well , i had a just a quick question but i know there was discussion of it at a previous meeting that i missed , but just about the the wish list item of getting good quality close - talking mikes on every speaker . professor b: ok , so let 's let 's so let 's just do agenda building right now . ok , so let 's talk about that a bit . phd a: i mean , that was professor b: uh , @ @ tuss close talking mikes , better quality . ok , uh , we can talk about that . you were gon na starting to say something ? postdoc g: well , you you , um , already know about the meeting { comment } that 's coming up and i do n't know if if this is appropriate for this . i do n't know . i mean , maybe maybe it 's something we should handle outside of the meeting . professor b: no , no , that 's ok . phd e: what meeting ? professor b: we can so we can ta so n nist is nist folks are coming by next week postdoc g: ok . professor b: and so we can talk about that . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: i think phd e: who 's coming ? professor b: uh , uh , john fiscus postdoc g: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh , i think george doddington will be around as well . uh , ok , so we can talk about that . uh , i guess just hear about how things are going with , uh , uh , the transcriptions . that 's right . postdoc g: sure . mm - hmm . professor b: that would sorta be an obvious thing to discuss . um , an - anything else , uh , strike anybody ? phd a: uh , we started running recognition on one conversation but it 's the r is n't working yet . so , but if anyone has professor b: ok . phd e: wha phd a: uh , the main thing would be if anyone has , um , knowledge about ways to , uh , post - process the wave forms that would give us better recognition , that would be helpful to know about . professor b: um , grad h: dome yeah , it sounds like a topic of conversation . professor b: yeah , so , uh phd e: what about , uh , is there anything new with the speech , nonspeech stuff ? phd c: yeah , we 're working more on it but , it 's not finished . professor b: ok . alright , that seems like a a good collection of things . and we 'll undoubtedly think of other things . postdoc g: i had thought under my topic that i would mention the , uh , four items that i i , uh , put out for being on the agenda f on that meeting , which includes like the pre - segmentation and the and the developments in multitrans . professor b: oh , under the nist meeting . postdoc g: yeah , under the nist thing . professor b: ok . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: alright , why do n't we start off with this , u u i guess the order we brought them up seems fine . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: um , so , better quality close talking mikes . so the one issue was that the the , uh , lapel mike , uh , is n't as good as you would like . and so , uh , it it 'd be better if we had close talking mikes for everybody . right ? phd a: ri - um , professor b: is that is that basically the point ? phd a: yeah , the and actually in addition to that , that the the close talking mikes are worn in such a way as to best capture the signal . and the reason here is just that for the people doing work not on microphones but on sort of like dialogue and so forth , uh or and even on prosody , which don is gon na be working on soon , it adds this extra , you know , vari variable for each speaker to to deal with when the microphones are n't similar . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: right . phd a: so and i also talked to mari this morning and she also had a strong preference for doing that . and in fact she said that that 's useful for them to know in starting to collect their data too . professor b: mm - hmm . right , so one th grad h: well , so professor b: uh , well one thing i was gon na say was that , um , i we could get more , uh , of the head mounted microphones even beyond the number of radio channels we have because i think whether it 's radio or wire is probably second - order . and the main thing is having the microphone close to you , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: u although , not too close . grad h: right , so , uh , actually the way jose is wearing his is is c correct . phd d: yeah . is grad h: the good way . so you want to professor b: yeah . phd d: i it 's not cor it 's correct ? professor b: is . grad h: yeah , th that 's good . professor b: yes . phd d: yeah . grad h: so it 's towards the corner of your mouth so that breath sounds do n't get on it . phd d: yeah . yeah . grad h: and then just sort of about , uh , a thumb or a thumb and a half away from your from your mouth . phd d: yeah . yeah . uh , yeah . professor b: right . phd a: but we have more than one type of professor b: how am i d phd a: i mean , for instance , you 're phd c: yeah . grad h: and this one is n't very adjustable , phd d: yeah . grad h: so this about as good as i can get phd a: right . phd d: yeah . grad h: cuz it 's a fixed boom . phd d: is fixed . yeah . phd a: but if we could actually standardize , you know , the the microphones , uh , as much as possible that would be really helpful . professor b: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . grad h: mm - hmm . professor b: well , i mean it does n't hurt to have a few extra microphones around , phd d: yeah . professor b: so why do n't we just go out and and get an order of of if this microphone seems ok to people , uh , i 'd just get a half dozen of these things . grad h: well the onl the only problem with that is right now , um , some of the jimlets are n't working . the little the boxes under the table . professor b: yeah . grad h: and so , w uh , i 've only been able to find three jacks that are working . professor b: yeah . phd e: can we get these , wireless ? grad h: so professor b: no , but my point is phd a: but y we could just record these signals separately and time align them with the start of the meeting . professor b: r r right grad h: i i 'm not sure i 'm follow . say that again ? professor b: right now , we 've got , uh , two microphones in the room , that are not quote - unquote standard . so why do n't we replace those grad h: ok , just two . professor b: well , however many we can plug in . you know , if we can plug in three , let 's plug in three . grad h: ok . phd d: mm - yeah . professor b: also what we 've talked before about getting another , uh , radio , grad h: right . professor b: and so then that would be , you know , three more . grad h: right . ok . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: so , uh so we should go out to our full complement of whatever we can do , but have them all be the same mike . i think the original reason that it was done the other way was because , it w it was sort of an experimental thing and i do n't think anybody knew whether people would rather have more variety or or , uh , more uniformity , phd a: right . professor b: but @ @ { comment } but uh , sounds sounds fine . grad h: sounds like uniformity wins . phd d: right . phd a: well , for short term research it 's just there 's just so much effort that would have to be done up front n uh , professor b: yeah . grad h: well phd a: so yeah , uniformity would be great . grad h: yeah . phd e: is it because you you 're saying the for dialogue purposes , so that means that the transcribers are having trouble with those mikes ? is that what you mean ? phd a: well jane would know more about the transcribers . phd e: or ? postdoc g: and that 's true . i mean , i we did discuss this . uh , and and grad h: yep . couple times . postdoc g: a couple times , so , um , yeah , the transcribers notice and in fact there 're some where , um ugh well , i mean there 's it 's the double thing . it 's the equipment and also how it 's worn . phd a: right . postdoc g: and he 's always they always they just rave about how wonderful adam 's adam 's channel is . grad h: what can i say . postdoc g: and then , phd a: so does the recognizer . professor b: yeah . postdoc g: yeah . grad h: oh , really ? yeah , i 'm not surprised . i mean , `` baaah ! `` phd a: even if if you 're talking on someone else 's mike it 's still you w postdoc g: yeah , but i mean it 's not just that , it 's also you know you professor b: yeah . phd c: yeah . postdoc g: it 's also like n no breathing , no you know , it 's like it 's it 's um , professor b: yeah . postdoc g: it 's really it makes a big difference from the transcribers ' point of view grad h: yeah , it 's an advantage when you do n't breath . postdoc g: and also from the research s point of view . phd a: right . professor b: when we 're doing grad h: yeah , i think that the point of doing the close talking mike is to get a good quality signal . we 're not doing research on close talking mikes . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: yeah . grad h: so we might as well get it as uniform as we can . phd a: right . professor b: now , this is locking the barn door after the horse was stolen . we do have thirty hours , of of speech , which is done this way . grad h: yeah . phd a: that 's ok . professor b: but but , uh , yeah , for future ones we can get it a bit more uniform . phd a: great , great . grad h: so i think just do a field trip at some point . professor b: yeah , probably yeah , to the store we talked about and that grad h: yep . postdoc g: and there was some talk about , uh , maybe the h headphones that are uncomfortable for people , to grad h: yep . so , as as i said , we 'll do a field trip and see if we can get all of the same mike that 's more comfortable than than these things , which i think are horrible . postdoc g: ok . good . grad h: so . phd a: great , thank you very much . phd e: especially for people with big heads . phd a: it 's makes our job a lot easier . professor b: ok . ok . grad h: and , you know , we 're researchers , so we all have big heads . professor b: ok . phd e: yeah . professor b: yeah . uh , ok , second item was the , uh , nist visit , and what 's going on there . postdoc g: yeah . ok , so , um , uh , jonathan fiscus is coming on the second of february and i 've spoken with , uh , u u a lot of people here , not everyone . um , and , um , he expressed an interest in seeing the room and in , um , seeing a demonstration of the modified multitrans , which i 'll mention in a second , and also , um , he was interested in the pre - segmentation and then he 's also interested in the transcription conventions . grad h: mm - hmm . postdoc g: and , um so , um , it seems to me in terms of like , um , i i it wou you know , ok . so the room , it 's things like the audio and c and audi audio and acoustic acoustic properties of the room and how it how the recordings are done , and that kind of thing . and , um . ok , in terms of the multi - trans , well that that 's being modified by dave gelbart to , uh , handle multi - channel recording . grad h: oh , i should 've i was just thinking i should have invited him to this meeting . i forgot to do it . postdoc g: yeah , ok . grad h: so . phd c: yeah . postdoc g: yeah . well that 's ok , i mean we 'll grad h: sorry . postdoc g: yeah , and it 's t and it looks really great . he he has a prototype . i i , uh , @ @ { comment } did n't did n't see it , uh , yesterday but i 'm going to see it today . and , uh , that 's that will enable us to do nice um , tight time marking of the beginning and ending of overlapping segments . at present it 's not possible with limitations of of the , uh , original design of the software . and um . so , i do n't know . in terms of , like , pre - segmentation , that that continues to be , um , a terrific asset to the to the transcribers . do you i know that you 're al also supplementing it further . do you want to mention something about that c thilo , or ? phd c: um , yeah . what what i 'm doing right now is i 'm trying to include some information about which channel , uh , there 's some speech in . but that 's not working at the moment . i 'm just trying to do this by comparing energies , uh normalizing energies and comparing energies of the different channels . postdoc g: ok . phd c: and so to to give the transcribers some information in which channel there 's there 's speech in addition to to the thing we we did now which is just , uh , speech - nonspeech detection on the mixed file . so i 'm i 'm relying on on the segmentation of the mixed file postdoc g: this is good . mm - hmm . phd c: but i 'm i 'm trying to subdivide the speech portions into different portions if there is some activity in in different channels . postdoc g: excellent , so this 'd be like w e providing also speaker id potentially . phd c: but yeah . yeah . postdoc g: wonderful . wonderful . professor b: um , something i guess i did n't put in the list but , uh , on that , uh , same day later on in or maybe it 's no , actually it 's this week , uh , dave gelbart and i will be , uh , visiting with john canny who i you know , is a cs professor , postdoc g: oh . professor b: who 's interested in ar in array microphones . grad h: hcc . oh , he 's doing array mikes . professor b: yeah . and so we wan na see what commonality there is here . you know , maybe they 'd wan na stick an array mike here when we 're doing things phd e: that would be cool . grad h: yeah , that would be neat . professor b: or or maybe it 's it 's not a specific array microphone they want phd d: yeah . phd e: that would be really neat . professor b: but they might wan na just , uh , you know , you could imagine them taking the four signals from these these table mikes and trying to do something with them um , i also had a discussion so , w uh , we 'll be over over there talking with him , um , after class on friday . um , we 'll let you know what what goes with that . also had a completely unrelated thing . i had a , uh , discussion today with , uh , birger kollmeier who 's a , uh , a german , uh , scientist who 's got a fair sized group doing a range of things . it 's sort of auditory related , largely for hearing aids and so on . but but , uh , he does stuff with auditory models and he 's very interested in directionality , and location , and and , uh , head models and microphone things . and so , uh , he 's he and possibly a student , there w there 's , uh , a student of his who gave a talk here last year , uh , may come here , uh , in the fall for , uh , sort of a five month , uh , sabbatical . so he might be around . get him to give some talks and so on . but anyway , he might be interested in this stuff . phd d: mm - hmm . phd e: that that reminds me , i had a a thought of an interesting project that somebody could try to do with the data from here , either using , you know , the the mikes on the table or using signal energies from the head worn mikes , phd d: mm - hmm . phd e: and that is to try to construct a map of where people were sitting , professor b: right . phd d: uh - huh . phd e: uh , based on grad h: well dan dan had worked on that . dan ellis , phd d: uh - huh . phd e: oh , did he ? oh , that 's interesting . grad h: yeah . so that that 's the cross - correlation stuff , was was doing b beam - forming . phd d: yeah . phd e: and so you could plot out who was sitting next to who professor b: a little bit , phd e: and professor b: i mean , he did n't do a very extreme thing but just it was just sort of phd d: yeah , yeah . grad h: no , he did start on it . professor b: e e given that , the the the block of wood with the the the two mikes { comment } on either side , grad h: mm - hmm . professor b: if i 'm speaking , or if you 're speaking , or someone over there is speaking , it if you look at cross - correlation functions , you end up with a phd d: yeah . professor b: if if someone who was on the axis between the two is talking , then you you get a big peak there . and if if someone 's talking on on on , uh , one side or the other , it goes the other way . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: and then , uh , it it it even looks different if th t if the two two people on either side are talking than if one in the middle . it it actually looks somewhat different , so . phd e: hmm . well i was just thinking , you know , as i was sitting here next to thilo that um , when he 's talking , my mike probably picks it up better than your guys 's mikes . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd e: so if you just looked at grad h: oh , that 's another cl cue , phd d: yeah . phd e: yeah , { comment } looked at { comment } the energy on my mike and you could get an idea about who 's closest to who . grad h: that 's true . phd d: yeah . professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . professor b: right . phd d: yeah . phd e: and grad h: or who talks the loudest . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah , well you have to the appropriate normalizations are tricky , and and and are probably the key . grad h: yeah . phd c: yeah . phd a: you just search for adam 's voice on each individual microphone , you pretty much know where everybody 's sitting . phd c: yeah . professor b: yeah . we 've switched positions recently so you ca n't anyway . ok . so those are just a little couple of news items . postdoc g: can i ask one thing ? uh , so , um , jonathan fiscus expressed an interest in , uh , microphone arrays . professor b: yes . postdoc g: um , is there i mean b and i also want to say , his he ca n't stay all day . he needs to uh , leave for uh , from here to make a two forty - five flight grad h: oh , so just morning . postdoc g: from from oakland . professor b: right . postdoc g: so it makes the scheduling a little bit tight but do you think that , um that , uh , i john canny should be involved in this somehow or not . i have no idea . professor b: probably not but i i 'll i 'll i 'll know better after i see him this friday what what kind of level he wants to get involved . postdoc g: it 's premature . fine . good . professor b: uh , he might be excited to and it might be very appropriate for him to , uh , or he might have no interest whatsoever . i i just really do n't know . postdoc g: ok . grad h: is he involved in ach ! { comment } i 'm blanking on the name of the project . nist has has done a big meeting room instrumented meeting room with video and microphone arrays , and very elaborate software . is is he the one working on that ? professor b: well that 's what they 're starting up . grad h: ok . professor b: yeah . no , i mean , that 's what all this is about . they they have n't done it yet . they wanted to do it grad h: ok . i had read some papers that looked like they had already done some work . professor b: uh , well i think they 've instrumented a room but i do n't think they they have n't started recordings yet . they do n't have the t the transcription standards . they do n't have the phd e: are they going to do video as well ? grad h: hmm . professor b: yeah . i think . phd e: hmm . professor b: i think they are . grad h: oh , cuz what what i had read was , uh , they had a uh very large amount of software infrastructure for coordinating all this , both in terms of recording and also live room where you 're interacting the participants are interacting with the computer , and with the video , and lots of other stuff . professor b: well , i 'm i 'm i 'm not sure . grad h: so . professor b: all all i know is that they 've been talking to me about a project that they 're going to start up recording people meet in meetings . grad h: ok . well professor b: and , uh , it is related to ours . they were interested in ours . they wanted to get some uniformity with us , uh , about the transcriptions and so on . grad h: alright . professor b: and one one notable difference u u actually i ca n't remember whether they were going to routinely collect video or not , but one one , uh , difference from the audio side was that they are interested in using array mikes . so , um , i mean , i 'll just tell you the party line on that . the reason i did n't go for that here was because , uh , the focus , uh , both of my interest and of adam 's interest was uh , in impromptu situations . and we 're not recording a bunch of impromptu situations but that 's because it 's different to get data for research than to actually apply it . phd d: hmm . professor b: and so , uh , for scientific reasons we thought it was good to instrument this room as we wanted it . but the thing we ultimately wanted to aim at was a situation where you were talking with , uh , one or more other people i uh , in in an p impromptu way , where you did n't did n't actually know what the situation was going to be . and therefore it would not it 'd be highly unlikely that room would be outfitted with with some very carefully designed array of microphones . um , so it was only for that reason . it was just , you know , yet another piece of research and it seemed like we had enough troubles just phd e: so there 's no like portable array of mikes ? professor b: no . so there 's there 's uh , there 's a whole range of things there 's a whole array of things , that people do on this . phd d: hmm . professor b: so , um , the , uh the big arrays , uh , places , uh , like uh , rutgers , and brown , and other other places , uh , they have , uh , big arrays with , i do n't know , a hundred hundred mikes or something . grad h: xerox . professor b: and so there 's a wall of mikes . and you get really , really good beam - forming { comment } with that sort of thing . phd e: wow . professor b: and it 's and , um , in fact at one point we had a a proposal in with rutgers where we were gon na do some of the sort of per channel signal - processing and they were gon na do the multi - channel stuff , but it d it d we ended up not doing it . but phd e: i 've seen demonstrations of the microphone arrays . it 's amazing how how they can cut out noise . professor b: yeah , it 's r it 's really neat stuff . grad h: and then they have little ones too professor b: and then they had the little ones , yeah . grad h: but i mean but they do n't have our block of wood , right ? professor b: yeah , our block of wood is unique . phd d: yeah . professor b: but the but the no , there are these commercial things now you can buy that have four mikes or something phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and and , uh , um so , yeah , there 's there 's there 's a range of things that people do . phd e: huh . professor b: um , so if we connected up with somebody who was interested in doing that sort of thing that 's that 's a good thing to do . i mean , whenever i 've described this to other people who are interested on the with the acoustic side that 's invariably the question they ask . just like someone who is interested in the general dialogue thing will always ask `` um , are you recording video ? `` phd a: right , professor b: um , right ? phd a: right . professor b: and and the acoustic people will always say , `` well are you doing , uh , uh , array microphones ? `` so it 's it 's a good thing to do , but it does n't solve the problem of how do you solve things when there 's one mike or at best two mikes in in this imagined pda that we have . so maybe maybe we 'll do some more of it . postdoc g: well one thing i i mean , i do n't know . i mean , i know that having an array of i mean , i would imagine it would be more expensive to have a an array of microphones . but could n't you kind of approximate the natural sis situation by just shutting off uh , channels when you 're later on ? i mean , it seems like if the microphones do n't effect each other then could n't you just , you know , record them with an array and then just not use all the data ? grad h: it 's it 's just a lot of infrastructure that for our particular purpose we felt we did n't need to set up . postdoc g: i see . phd a: yeah . postdoc g: fine . professor b: yeah , if ninety - nine percent of what you 're doing is c is shutting off most of the mikes , then going through the postdoc g: ok . professor b: but if you get somebody who 's who who has that as a primary interest then that put then that drives it in that direction . grad h: that 's right , i mean if someone if someone came in and said we really want to do it , phd a: right . grad h: i mean , we do n't care . that would be fine , phd e: so to save that data you you have to have one channel recording per mike in the array ? grad h: buy more disk space . professor b: well , uh , at some level at some level . phd e: is that grad h: i usually do a mix . professor b: but then , you know , there 's it there 's phd e: what you save , i mean , if you 're going to do research with it . yeah professor b: there 's i i do n't know what they 're going to do and i do n't know how big their array is . obviously if you were gon na save all of those channels for later research you 'd use up a lot of space . phd e: yeah . professor b: and , th phd e: hmm . grad h: well their software infrastructure had a very elaborate design for plugging in filters , and mixers , and all sorts of processing . so that they can do stuff in real time and not save out each channel individually . professor b: yeah . yeah . phd e: mmm . grad h: so it was , uh phd d: yeah . professor b: but i mean , uh , for optimum flexibility later you 'd want to save each channel . but i think in practical situations you would have some engine of some sort doing some processing to reduce this to some to the equivalent of a single microphone that was very directional . phd e: uh , oh , ok , i see . professor b: right ? phd a: i mean , it seems professor b: so phd e: sort of saving the result of the beam - forming . phd d: yeah . phd a: it seems to me that there 's you know , there are good political reasons for for doing this , just getting the data , because there 's a number of sites like right now sri is probably gon na invest a lot of internal funding into recording meetings also , which is good , um , but they 'll be recording with video and they 'll be you know , it 'd be nice if we can have at least , uh , make use of the data that we 're recording as we go since it 's sort of this is the first site that has really collected these really impromptu meetings , um , and just have this other information available . so , if we can get the investment in just for the infra infrastructure and then , i do n't know , save it out or have whoever 's interested save that data out , transfer it there , it 'd be g it 'd be good to have have the recording . i think . grad h: you mean to to actually get a microphone array and do that ? phd a: well , if even if we 're not grad h: and video and phd a: i 'm not sure about video . that 's sort of an video has a little different nature since right n right now we 're all being recorded but we 're not being taped . um , but it definitely in the case of microphone arrays , since if there was a community interested in this , then grad h: well , but i think we need a researcher here who 's interested in it . to push it along . professor b: see the problem is it it took , uh , uh , it took at least six months for dan to get together the hardware and the software , and debug stuff in in the microphones , and in the boxes . and it was a really big deal . and so i think we could get a microphone array in here pretty easily and , uh , have it mixed to to one channel of some sort . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: but , e i think for i mean , how we 're gon na decide for for maximum flexibility later you really do n't want to end up with just one channel that 's pointed in the direction of the the the p the person with the maximum energy or something like that . i mean , you you want actually to you want actually to have multiple channels being recorded so that you can and to do that , it we 're going to end up greatly increasing the disk space that we use up , we also only have boards that will take up to sixteen channels and in this meeting , we 've got eight people and and six mikes . and there we 're already using fourteen . grad h: and we actually only have fifteen . professor b: e grad h: one of them 's phd d: yeah . grad h: details . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . grad h: but fifteen , not sixteen . phd a: well if there 's a way to say time to sort of solve each of these f those professor b: yeah . phd a: so suppose you can get an array in because there 's some person at berkeley who 's interested and has some equipment , uh , and suppose we can as we save it we can , you know , transfer it off to some other place that that holds this this data , who 's interested , and even if icsi it itself is n't . um , and it it seems like as long as we can time align the beginning , do we need to mix it with the rest ? i do n't know . you know ? the professor b: yeah . so i think you 'd need a separate a separate set up phd a: so yeah . professor b: and the assumption that you could time align the two . phd a: i mean it 's just it 's worth considering as sort of grad h: and y it 'd certainly gets skew . phd a: once you make the up front investment { comment } and can sort of save it out each time , and and not have to worry about the disk space factor , then it mi it might be worth having the data . professor b: i 'm not so much worried about disk space actually . i mentioned that , b as a practical matter , grad h: just professor b: but the real issue is that , uh , there is no way to do a recording extended to what we have now with low skew . so you would have a t completely separate set up , phd a: right . professor b: which would mean that the sampling times and so forth would be all over the place compared to this . so it would depend on the level of pr processing you were doing later , but if you 're d i the kind of person who 's doing array processing you actually care about funny little times . and and so you actually wou would want to have a completely different set up than we have , phd a: i see . professor b: one that would go up to thirty - two channels or something . phd a: mmm . professor b: so basically grad h: or a hundred thirty - two . professor b: or a hun yeah . so , i 'm kinda skeptical , but um i think that phd a: mmm . professor b: so , uh , i do n't think we can share the resource in that way . but what we could do is if there was someone else who 's interested they could have a separate set up which they would n't be trying to synch with ours which might be useful for for them . phd a: right , i mean at least they 'd have the data and the transcripts , professor b: and then we can offer up the room , phd a: and right . professor b: yeah , we can o offer the meetings , and the physical space , and and yeah , the transcripts , and so on . phd a: ok . right , i mean , just it 'd be nice if we have more information on the same data . you know , and professor b: yeah . phd a: but it 's if it 's impossible or if it 's a lot of effort then you have to just balance the two , professor b: well i thi phd a: so professor b: yeah , the thing will be , u u in in again , in talking to these other people to see what you know , what what we can do . phd a: right . professor b: uh , we 'll see . phd e: is there an interest in getting video recordings for these meetings ? professor b: right , so we have we phd e: i mean grad h: yes , absolutely . but it 's exactly the same problem , that you have an infrastructure problem , you have a problem with people not wanting to be video taped , and you have the problem that no one who 's currently involved in the project is really hot to do it . phd e: hmm . so there 's not enough interest to overcome all of grad h: mm - hmm . phd a: right . internally , but i know there is interest from other places that are interested in looking at meeting data and having the video . so it 's just postdoc g: yeah , w although i m i i have to u u mention the human subjects problems , that i increase with video . phd a: right , that 's true . professor b: yeah , so it 's , uh , people people getting shy about it . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: there 's this human subjects problem . there 's the fact that then um , if i i i 've heard comments about this before , `` why do n't you just put on a video camera ? `` but you know , it 's sort of like saying , `` uh , well we 're primarily interested in in some dialogue things , uh , but , uh , why do n't we just throw a microphone out there . `` i mean , the thing is , once you actually have serious interest in any of these things then you actually have to put a lot of effort in . phd e: mmm . professor b: and , uh , you really want to do it right . grad h: i know . yep . professor b: so i think nist or ldc , or somebody like that i think is much better shape to do all that . we there will be other meeting recordings . we wo n't be the only place doing meeting recordings . we are doing what we 're doing . postdoc g: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh , hopefully it 'll be useful . postdoc g: i it it occurred to me , has don signed a human subject 's form ? grad h: oh ! probably not . postdoc g: a permission form ? grad h: has don have you s did you si i thought you did actually . grad f: i was yeah , i was i was here i was here before once . grad h: did n't you read a digit string ? phd e: you were here at a meeting before . postdoc g: you were here at a meeting before . phd e: yeah . grad f: so . grad h: yeah , and you and you signed a form . grad f: oh , i think so . postdoc g: did you sign a form ? grad f: did i ? i do n't know . grad h: i 'm pretty sure . well i 'll i 'll get another one before the end of the meeting . postdoc g: ok . professor b: yeah . grad h: thank you . grad f: yeah . postdoc g: ok . professor b: yeah . postdoc g: you do n't you do n't have to leave for it . professor b: yeah , we we postdoc g: but i just grad f: can i verbally consent ? postdoc g: you know . grad h: well i ca n't , i 'm wired in . professor b: we we we we do n't , uh phd a: yeah . you 're on recor you 're being recorded postdoc g: o grad f: yeah . phd a: and professor b: we do n't we do n't perform electro - shock during these meetings , grad f: i do n't care . you can do whatever you want with it . professor b: and phd e: usually . grad f: that 's fine . professor b: yeah . ok . uh , transcriptions . postdoc g: transcriptions , ok . um , i thought about there are maybe three aspects of this . so first of all , um , i 've got eight transcribers . uh , seven of them are linguists . one of them is a graduate student in psychology . um , each i gave each of them , uh , their own data set . two of them have already finished the data sets . and the meetings run , you know , let 's say an hour . sometimes as man much as an hour and a half . phd e: how big is the data set ? postdoc g: oh , it 's what i mean is one meeting . phd e: ah , ok . postdoc g: each each person got their own meeting . i did n't want to have any conflicts of , you know , of of when to stop transcribing this one or so i wanted to keep it clear whose data were whose , and and and so phd e: uh - huh . postdoc g: and , uh , meetings , you know , i think that they 're they go as long as a almost two hours in some in some cases . so , you know , that means you know , if we 've got two already finished and they 're working on uh , right now all eight of them have differe uh , uh , additional data sets . that means potentially as many as ten might be finished by the end of the month . phd e: wow . postdoc g: hope so . but the pre - segmentation really helps a huge amount . phd c: ok . postdoc g: and , uh , also dan ellis 's innovation of the , uh the multi - channel to here really helped a r a lot in terms of clearing clearing up h hearings that involve overlaps . but , um , just out of curiosity i asked one of them how long it was taking her , one of these two who has already finished her data set . she said it takes about , uh , sixty minutes transcription for every five minutes of real time . so it 's about twelve to one , which is what we were thinking . grad h: or yep . postdoc g: it 's well in the range . grad h: it 's pretty good . postdoc g: ok . uh , these still , when they 're finished , um , that means that they 're finished with their pass through . they still need to be edited and all but but it 's word level , speaker change , the things that were mentioned . ok , now i wanted to mention the , um , teleconference i had with , uh , jonathan fiscus . we spoke for an hour and a half and , um , had an awful lot of things in common . grad h: hmm . postdoc g: he , um , um , he in indicated to me that they 've that he 's been , uh , looking , uh , uh , spending a lot of time with i 'm not quite sure the connection , but spending a lot of time with the atlas system . and i guess that i mean , i i need to read up on that . and there 's a web site that has lots of papers . but it looks to me like that 's the name that has developed for the system that bird and liberman developed { comment } for the annotated graphs approach . grad h: mm - hmm . postdoc g: so what he wants me to do and what we what we will do and uh , is to provide them with the u already transcribed meeting for him to be able to experiment with in this atlas system . and they do have some sort of software , at least that 's my impression , related to atlas and that he wants to experiment with taking our data and putting them in that format , and see how that works out . i i i explained to him in in detail the , uh , conventions that we 're using here in this in this word level transcript . and , um , you know , i i explained , you know , the reasons that that we were not coding more elaborately and and the focus on reliability . he expressed a lot of interest in reliability . it 's like he 's he 's really up on these things . he 's he 's very um , independently he asked , `` well what about reliability ? `` so , he 's interested in the consistency of the encoding and that sort of thing . ok , um phd a: sorry , can you explain what the atlas i 'm not familiar with this atlas system . postdoc g: well , you know , at this point i think uh , well adam 's read more in more detail than i have on this . i need to acquaint myself more with it . but , um , there there is a way of viewing uh , whenever you have coding categories , um , and you 're dealing with uh , a taxonomy , then you can have branches that that have alternative , uh , choices that you could use for each each of them . and it just ends up looking like a graphical representation . grad h: is is is atlas the his annotated transcription graph stuff ? i do n't remember the acronym . the the one the what i think you 're referring to , they they have this concept of an an annotated transcription graph representation . phd a: oh . oh . postdoc g: yeah . grad h: and that 's basically what i based the format that i did i based it on their work almost directly , in combination with the tei stuff . and so it 's very , very similar . and so it 's it 's a data representation and a set of tools for manipulating transcription graphs of various types . phd e: is this the project that 's sort of , uh , between , uh , nist and and , uh , a couple of other places ? postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd e: the the postdoc g: including ldc . phd e: yeah , postdoc g: i think so . grad h: yep . phd e: y right , ok . postdoc g: mm - hmm . then there 's their web site that has lots of papers . and i looked through them and they mainly had to do with this , um , this , uh , tree structure , uh , annotated tree diagram thing . phd a: mmm . postdoc g: so , um , um and , you know , in terms of like the conventions that i 'm a that i 've adopted , it there there 's no conflict at all . grad h: right . postdoc g: and he was , you know , very interested . and , `` oh , and how 'd you handle this ? `` and i said , `` well , you know , this way `` and and and we had a really nice conversation . um , ok , now i also wanted to say in a different a different direction is , brian kingsbury . so , um , i corresponded briefly with him . i , uh , c i he still has an account here . i told him he could ssh on and use multi - trans , and have a look at the already done , uh , transcription . and he and he did . and what he said was that , um , what they 'll be providing is will not be as fine grained in terms of the time information . and , um , that 's , uh you know , i need to get back to him and and , uh , you know , explore that a little bit more and see what they 'll be giving us in specific , phd a: hmm . phd e: the p the people postdoc g: but i just have n't had time yet . phd e: the the folks that they 're , uh , subcontracting out the transcription to , are they like court reporters postdoc g: sorry , what ? yes . phd e: or postdoc g: apparently well , i get the sense they 're kind of like that . like it 's like a pool of of somewhat uh , secretarial i do n't think that they 're court reporters . i do n't think they have the special keyboards and that and that type of training . phd e: mm - hmm . postdoc g: i i get the sense they 're more secretarial . and that , um , uh , what they 're doing is giving them phd e: hmm . like medical transcriptionist type people grad h: nu - it 's mostly it 's for their speech recognition products , phd e: but are n't they 're postdoc g: yep . grad h: that they 've hired these people to do . phd e: oh , so they 're hiring them , they 're coming . it 's not a service they send the tapes out to . grad h: well they they do send it out but my understanding is that that 's all this company does is transcriptions for ibm for their speech product . phd e: ah ! oh . ok . i gotcha . grad h: so most of it 's viavoice , people reading their training material for that . phd e: i see . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd e: i see . postdoc g: up to now it 's been monologues , uh , as far my understood . grad h: yep , exactly . postdoc g: and and what they 're doing is phd e: mm - hmm . grad h: yep . postdoc g: brian himself downloaded so so , um , adam sent them a cd and brian himself downloaded uh , cuz , you know , i mean , we wanted to have it so that they were in familiar f terms with what they wanted to do . he downloaded from the cd onto audio tapes . and apparently he did it one channel per audio tape . so each of these people is transcribing from one channel . grad h: right . phd e: oh . postdoc g: and then what he 's going to do is check it , a before they go be beyond the first one . check it and , you know , adjust it , and all that . phd e: so each person gets one of these channels grad h: right . professor b: so if they hear something off in the distance they do n't they just go phd e: ok . postdoc g: i i do n't know . grad h: well , but that 's ok , because , you know , you 'll do all them and then combine them . phd e: but there could be problems , right ? with that . postdoc g: i have t i , you know i phd c: yep . postdoc g: i think it would be difficult to do it that way . i really phd a: yeah . phd e: well if you 're tran if you got that channel right there postdoc g: d uh , in my case phd c: yeah . grad h: no , no . we 're talking about close talking , not the not the desktop . phd d: no , close talk . professor b: are you ? postdoc g: yes . well i th i think so . grad h: i sure hope so . it 'd be really foolish to do otherwise . postdoc g: yeah , i i would think that it would be kind of hard to come out with yeah . phd a: i i think it 's sort of hard just playing the you know , just having played the individual files . and i i mean , i know you . i know what your voice sounds like . i 'm sort of familiar with phd c: yeah . phd a: uh , it 's pretty hard to follow , especially grad h: one side . phd a: there are a lot of words that are so reduced phonetically that make sense when you know what the person was saying before . postdoc g: i agree . phd c: yeah . phd e: yeah , that 's phd a: uh , it sort of depends where you are in postdoc g: and especially since a lot of these phd d: yeah . grad h: but i mean we had this we 've had this discussion many times . postdoc g: yeah , we have . grad h: and the answer is we do n't actually know the answer because we have n't tried both ways . postdoc g: well , except i can say that my transcribers use the mixed signal mostly grad h: so . mm - hmm . phd a: mm - hmm . phd e: right . postdoc g: unless there 's a huge disparity in terms of the volume on on the mix . in which case , you know , they they would n't be able to catch anything except the prominent { comment } channel , grad h: right . phd c: yeah . postdoc g: then they 'll switch between . grad h: well i think that that might change if you wanted really fine time markings . postdoc g: but but really well , ok . grad h: so . professor b: but they 're not giving f really fine time markings . postdoc g: yeah , well phd a: actually , are th so are they giving any time markings ? grad h: right . phd a: in other words , if postdoc g: well , i have to ask him . phd a: yeah . postdoc g: and that 's that 's my email to him . that needs to be forthcoming . phd a: cuz ok . postdoc g: but but the , uh i did want to say that it 's hard to follow one channel of a conversation even if you know the people , and if you 're dealing furthermore with highly abstract network concepts you 've never heard of so , you know , one of these people was was transcribing the , uh , networks group talk and she said , `` i do n't really know what a lot of these abbreviations are , `` `` but i just put them in parentheses cuz that 's the that 's the convention and i just `` cuz you know , if you do n't know grad h: oh , i 'd be curious to to look at that . phd e: just out of curiosity , i mean grad h: they also all have h heavy accents . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . postdoc g: yeah . grad h: the networks group meetings are all phd e: given all of the effort that is going on here in transcribing why do we have i b m doing it ? why not just do it all ourselves ? professor b: um , it 's historical . i mean , uh , some point ago we thought that uh , it `` boy , we 'd really have to ramp up to do that `` , phd c: uh - huh . phd d: no , just professor b: you know , like we just did , and , um , here 's , uh , a a , uh , collaborating institution that 's volunteered to do it . phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: so , that was a contribution they could make . uh in terms of time , money , you know ? phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: and it still might be a good thing phd e: i 'm just wondering now phd a: actu yeah , mar - mari asked me the same question as sort of professor b: but phd e: well , i 'm i 'm wondering now if it 's grad h: well we can talk about more details later . phd a: um , you know , yeah , whether to professor b: yeah . yeah . yeah , so . phd e: hmm . professor b: we 'll see . i mean , i think , th you know , they they they 've proceeded along a bit . let 's see what comes out of it , and and , uh , you know , have some more discussions with them . postdoc g: mm - hmm . it 's very a real benefit having brian involved because of his knowledge of what the how the data need to be used and so what 's useful to have in the format . grad h: yeah . professor b: mm - hmm . yeah . grad h: so , um , liz , with with the sri recognizer , { comment } can it make use of some time marks ? phd a: ok , so this is a , um , grad h: i i guess i do n't know what that means . phd a: and actually i should say this is what don has b uh , he 's already been really helpful in , uh , chopping up these so so first of all you um , i mean , for the sri front - end , we really need to chop things up into pieces that are f not too huge . um , but second of all , uh in general because some of these channels , i 'd say , like , i do n't know , at least half of them probably { comment } on average are g are ha are have a lot of cross - ta sorry , some of the segments have a lot of cross - talk . um , it 's good to get sort of short segments if you 're gon na do recognition , especially forced alignment . so , uh , don has been taking a first stab actually using jane 's first the fir the meeting that jane transcribed which we did have some problems with , and thilo , uh , i think told me why this was , but that people were switching microphones around { comment } in the very beginning , so the sri re phd c: no , th yeah . no . they they were not switching them but what they were they were adjusting them , phd a: and they they were not phd c: so . grad f: mmm . grad h: adjusting . oh . phd a: yeah . phd c: and aft after a minute or so it 's it 's way better . phd a: so we have to sort of normalize { comment } the front - end and so forth , and have these small segments . phd c: so yep . phd a: so we 've taken that and chopped it into pieces based always on your your , um , cuts that you made on the mixed signal . and so that every every speaker has the same cuts . and if they have speech in it we run it through . and if they do n't have speech in it we do n't run it through . and we base that knowledge on the transcription . grad h: on just on the marks . right ? phd a: um , the problem is if we have no time marks , then for forced alignment we actually do n't know where you know , in the signal the transcriber heard that word . and so grad h: oh , i see , phd a: i mean , if if it 's a whole conversation and we get a long , uh , you know , par paragraph of of talk , grad h: it 's for the length . i see . phd a: uh , i do n't know how they do this . um , we actually do n't know which piece goes where . grad h: i understand . phd a: and , um , i think with phd e: well you would need to like a forced alignment before you did the chopping , right ? phd a: no , we used the fact that so when jane transcribes them the way she has transcribers doing this , whether it 's with the pre - segmentation or not , grad h: it 's already chunked . phd a: they have a chunk and then they transcribes { comment } the words in the chunk . and maybe they choose the chunk or now they use a pre - segmentation and then correct it if necessary . but there 's first a chunk and then a transcription . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: then a chunk , then a transcription . that 's great , cuz the recognizer can grad h: uh , it 's all pretty good sized for the recognizer also . phd a: right , and it it helps that it 's made based on sort of heuristics and human ear i think . postdoc g: good . oh good . phd a: th - but there 's going to be a real problem , uh , even if we chop up based on speech silence these , uh , the transcripts from i b m , we do n't actually know where the words were , which segment they belonged to . grad h: right . phd a: so that 's sort of what i 'm worried about right now . phd e: why not do a a a forced alignment ? grad h: that 's what she 's saying , is that you ca n't . phd a: if you do a forced alignment on something really grad h: got uh six sixty minutes of phd a: well even if you do it on something really long you need to know you can always chop it up but you need to have a reference of which words went with which , uh , chop . postdoc g: now was n't i thought that one of the proposals was that ibm was going to do an initial forced alignment , phd a: so postdoc g: after they grad h: yeah , but professor b: i i think that they are , grad h: we 'll have to talk to brian . professor b: um , yeah , i 'm sure they will and so we we have to have a dialogue with them about it . phd a: yeah . professor b: i mean , it sounds like liz has some concerns phd a: maybe they have some you know , maybe actually there is some , even if they 're not fine grained , maybe the transcribers professor b: and phd a: uh , i do n't know , maybe it 's saved out in pieces or or something . that would help . postdoc g: yeah . phd a: but , uh , it 's just an unknown right now . postdoc g: yeah . i i need to to write to him . phd a: so . postdoc g: i just you know , it 's like i got over - taxed with the timing . phd a: right . but the it is true that the segments i have n't tried the segments that thilo gave you but the segments that in your first meeting are great . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: i mean , that 's that 's a good length . postdoc g: a good size . good . phd a: right , cuz postdoc g: well , i i was thinking it would be fun to to uh , uh , if if you would n't mind , { comment } to give us a pre - segmentation . phd a: y yeah . phd c: yeah . postdoc g: uh , maybe you have one already of that first m of the meeting that uh , the first transcribed meeting , the one that i transcribed . phd c: um , i 'm sure i have some postdoc g: do you have a could you generate a pre - segmentation ? grad h: february sixteenth i think . phd c: but but that 's the one where we 're , um , trai training on , so that 's a little bit grad h: oh . postdoc g: oh , i see . phd c: it 's a little bit at odd to postdoc g: oh , darn . of course , of course , of course . yeah , ok . phd c: yeah . phd a: and actually as you get transcripts just , um , for new meetings , { comment } um , we can try postdoc g: uh - huh . phd a: i mean , the the more data we have to try the the alignments on , um , the better . so it 'd be good for just to know as transcriptions are coming through the pipeline from the transcribers , just to sort of we 're playing around with sort of uh , parameters f on the recognizer , postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: cuz that would be helpful . especially as you get , en more voices . postdoc g: excellent , good . phd a: the first meeting had i think just four people , phd c: four speakers , yeah . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . postdoc g: yeah , liz and i spoke d w at some length on tuesday and and i and i was planning to do just a a preliminary look over of the two that are finished and then give them to you . phd a: oh , great , great . postdoc g: yeah . phd a: so . professor b: that 's great . i guess the other thing , i i ca n't remember if we discussed this in the meeting but , uh , i know you and i talked about this a little bit , there was an issue of , uh , suppose we get in the , uh , i guess it 's enviable position although maybe it 's just saying where the weak link is in the chain , uh , where we we , uh uh , we have all the data transcribed and we have these transcribers and we were we 're the we 're still a bit slow on feeding at that point we 've caught up and the the the , uh , the weak link is is recording meetings . ok , um , two questions come , is you know what how how do we uh , it 's not really a problem at the moment cuz we have n't reached that point but how do we step out the recorded meetings ? and the other one is , um , uh , is there some good use that we can make of the transcribers to do other things ? so , um , i i ca n't remember how much we talked about this in this meeting but there was grad h: we had spoken with them about it . postdoc g: and there is one use that that also we discussed which was when , uh , dave finishes the and maybe it 's already finished the the modification to multi - trans which will allow fine grained encoding of overlaps . uh , then it would be very these people would be very good to shift over to finer grain encoding of overlaps . it 's just a matter of , you know , providing so if right now you have two overlapping segments in the same time bin , well with with the improvement in the database in in the , uh , sorry , in the interface , it 'd be possible to , um , you know , just do a click and drag thing , and get the uh , the specific place of each of those , the time tag associated with the beginning and end of of each segment . professor b: right , so i think we talking about three level three things . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: one one was uh , we had s had some discussion in the past about some very high level labelings , postdoc g: yeah . the types of overlaps professor b: types of overlaps , and so forth that that someone could do . second was , uh , somewhat lower level postdoc g: mm - hmm . professor b: just doing these more precise timings . and the third one is is , uh , just a completely wild hair brained idea that i have which is that , um , if , uh if we have time and people are able to do it , to take some subset of the data and do some very fine grained analysis of the speech . for instance , uh , marking in some overlapping potentially overlapping fashion , uh , the value of , uh , ar articulatory features . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: you know , just sort of say , ok , it 's voiced from here to here , there 's it 's nasal from here to here , and so forth . um , as opposed to doing phonetic uh , you know , phonemic and the phonetic analysis , grad h: professor b: and , uh , assuming , uh , articulatory feature values for those those things . um , obviously that 's extremely time - consuming . uh phd e: that would be really valuable i think . professor b: but , uh , we could do it on some small subset . postdoc g: also if you 're dealing with consonants that would be easier than vowels , would n't it ? i mean , i would think that that , uh , being able to code that there 's a a fricative extending from here to here would be a lot easier than classifying precisely which vowel that was . grad h: which one . phd a: mmm . professor b: mm - hmm . postdoc g: i think vowels vowels are i think harder . professor b: well , yeah , phd c: yeah . professor b: but i think also it 's just the issue that that when you look at the u w u u when you look at switchboard for instance very close up there are places where whether it 's a consonant or a vowel you still have trouble calling it a particular phone postdoc g: mm - hmm . professor b: at that point postdoc g: mm - hmm , ok . grad h: yeah , but but just saying what the professor b: because it 's you know , there 's this movement from here to here postdoc g: yeah , i 'm sure . uh , yeah , i i know . phd a: right . professor b: and and and it 's so i phd e: you 're saying r sort of remove the high level constraints and go bottom - up . professor b: yeah , describe describe it . phd e: then just say grad h: yep , just features . phd a: mmm . professor b: now i 'm suggesting articulatory features . maybe there 's there 's even a better way to do it but it but but that 's , you know , sort of a traditional way of describing these things , phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: um , and uh , i mean , actually this might be a g neat thing to talk to postdoc g: that 's nice . phd e: acoustic features versus psychological categories . professor b: sort of . i mean , it 's still phd e: yeah . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: some sort of categories but but something that allows for overlapping change of these things and then this would give some more ground work for people who were building statistical models that allowed for overlapping changes , different timing changes as opposed to just `` click , you 're now in this state , which corresponds to this speech sound `` and so on . phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: so this is like gestural uh , these g professor b: yeah , something like that . phd a: right . ok . professor b: i mean , actually if we get into that it might be good to , uh , uh , haul john ohala into this phd a: right . professor b: and ask his his views on it i think . grad h: yeah . phd a: but is is the goal there to have this on meeting data , postdoc g: excellent . phd a: like so that you can do far field studies { comment } of those gestures or um , or is it because you think there 's a different kind of actual production in meetings { comment } that people use ? or ? professor b: no , i think i think it 's for for for that purpose i 'm just viewing meetings as being a a neat way to get people talking naturally . and then you have i and then and then it 's natural in all senses , phd e: just a source of data ? phd a: i see . professor b: in the sense that you have microphones that are at a distance that you know , one might have , and you have the close mikes , and you have people talking naturally . and the overlap is just indicative of the fact that people are talking naturally , phd a: uh - huh . phd d: yeah . phd a: right . professor b: right ? so so i think that given that it 's that kind of corpus , phd d: yeah . professor b: if it 's gon na be a very useful corpus um , if you say w ok , we 've limited the use by some of our , uh , uh , censored choices , we do n't have the video , we do n't and so forth , but there 's a lot of use that we could make of it by expanding the annotation choices . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh , most of the things we 've talked about have been fairly high level , and being kind of a bottom - up person i thought maybe we 'd , do some of the others . grad h: hmm . phd a: right . yeah , that would be good . postdoc g: it 's a nice balance . professor b: yeah . postdoc g: that would be really nice to offer those things with that wide range . phd a: right . professor b: yeah and hopefully someone would make use of it . postdoc g: really nice . professor b: i mean , people did n't postdoc g: yeah . professor b: uh , i mean , people have made a lot of use of of timit and , uh w due to its markings , and then the switchboard transcription thing , well i think has been very useful for a lot of people . grad h: right . phd a: that 's true . professor b: so phd a: i guess i wanted to , um , sort of make a pitch for trying to collect more meetings . postdoc g: cool . phd a: um , professor b: yeah . phd a: i actually i talked to chuck fillmore and i think they 've what , vehemently said no before but this time he was n't vehement and he said you know , `` well , liz , come to the meeting tomorrow professor b: yeah . phd a: and try to convince people `` . so i 'm gon na try . go to their meeting tomorrow and see if we can try , uh , to convince them postdoc g: mm - hmm . good . professor b: cuz they have something like three or four different meetings , phd a: because they have and they have very interesting meetings from the point of view of a very different type of of talk than we have here professor b: right ? postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd d: talk phd a: and definitely than the front end meeting , probably . um phd e: you mean in terms of the topic topics ? phd a: well , yes and in terms of the the fact that they 're describing abstract things and , uh , just dialogue - wise , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: right . phd e: mm - hmm . phd a: um , so i 'll try . and then the other thing is , i do n't know if this is at all useful , but i asked lila if i can maybe go around and talk to the different departments in this building to see if there 's any groups that , for a free lunch , professor b: yes . phd a: if we can still offer that , might be willing professor b: great . grad h: you mean non - icsi ? phd a: non - icsi , non - academic , grad h: yeah , i guess you you can try phd a: you know , like government people , grad h: but phd a: i do n't know . grad h: the problem is so much of their stuff is confidential . phd a: so . phd d: yeah . postdoc g: yeah . grad h: it would be very hard for them . phd a: is is it in these departments ? phd d: yeah . postdoc g: also it does seem like it takes us way out of the demographic . i mean , it seems like we we had this idea before of having like linguistics students brought down for free lunches grad h: well , tha i think that 's her point . postdoc g: and that 's a nice idea . phd a: right , and then we could also we might try advertising again because i think it 'd be good if if we can get a few different sort of non - internal types of meetings postdoc g: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd a: and just also more data . so . phd e: does does john ohala have weekly phonetics lab meetings ? postdoc g: mm - hmm . grad h: and i think , uh , if we could get phd a: so i actually wrote to him and he answered , `` great , that sounds really interesting `` . but i never heard back because we did n't actually advertise openly . we a i mean w i told i d asked him privately . um , and it is a little bit of a trek for campus folks . postdoc g: mm - hmm . grad h: yeah . you might give them a free lunch . phd a: um , so it 's still worthwhile . grad h: but , um , it would be nice if we got someone other than me who knew how to set it up and could do the recording phd a: so grad h: so u i did n't have to do it each time . phd a: exactly , and and postdoc g: yeah . that 's right . phd a: and i was thinking professor b: he - he 's supposed he 's supposed to be trained to do it . phd a: yeah . plus we could also get you know , a s a student . grad h: ok , next week you 're going to do it all . phd d: yeah . phd a: and i 'm willing to try to learn . i mean , i 'm i would do my best . um , the other thing is that there was a number of things at the transcription side that , um , transcribers can do , like dialogue act tagging , grad h: it 's not that hard . phd a: disfluency tagging , um , things that are in the speech that are actually something we 're y { comment } working on for language modeling . and mari 's also interested in it , andreas as well . so if you wan na process a utterance and the first thing they say is , `` well `` , and that `` well `` is coded as some kind of interrupt u tag . uh , and things like that , um , th postdoc g: of course some of that can be li done lexically . phd a: a lot of it can be done postdoc g: and i also they are doing disfluency tagging to some degree already . phd a: great . so a a lot of this kind of postdoc g: yeah . phd a: i think there 's a second pass and i do n't really know what would exist in it . but there 's definitely a second pass worth doing to maybe encode some kinds of , you know , is it a question or not , postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: or um , that maybe these transcribers could do . so yeah . postdoc g: they 'd be really good . they 're they 're very they 're very consistent . phd a: that 'd be great . professor b: mm - hmm . postdoc g: uh , i wanted to whi while we 're uh , so , to return just briefly to this question of more meeting data , um i have two questions . one of them is , um , jerry feldman 's group , they they , uh , are they i know that they recorded one meeting . are they willing ? professor b: i think they 're open to it . i think , you know , all these things are phd a: oh , yeah . professor b: i think there 's we should go beyond , uh , icsi but , i mean , there 's a lot of stuff happening at icsi that we 're not getting now that we could . phd a: oh , that we could . professor b: so it 's just postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: ok . i thought that all these people had sort of said `` no `` twice already . professor b: yeah . so the phd a: if that 's not the case then professor b: no , no . no . so th there was the thing in fillmore 's group but even there he had n't what he 'd said `` no `` to was for the main meeting . but they have several smaller meetings a week , grad h: so . professor b: and , uh , the notion was raised before that that could happen . and it just , you know it just did n't come together phd a: just ok . phd e: well , and and the other thing too is when they originally said `` no `` they did n't know about this post - editing capability thing . professor b: but phd a: right . postdoc g: oh . professor b: yeah . yeah . phd a: right . that was a big fear . phd e: so . postdoc g: that 's important . professor b: yeah , so i mean there 's possibilities there . i think jerry 's group , yes . phd a: ok . professor b: uh , there 's there 's , uh , the networks group , uh , i do n't do they still meeting regularly or ? grad h: well , i do n't know if they meet regularly or not but they are no longer recording . professor b: but i mean , ha ha have they said they do n't want to anymore or ? grad h: um , ugh , what was his name ? professor b: uh , i i postdoc g: joe sokol ? grad h: yeah . professor b: yeah . grad h: when with him gone , it sorta trickled off . professor b: ok , so they 're down to three or four people grad h: they and they stopped yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: but the thing is three or four people is ok . grad h: yep . postdoc g: we might be able to get the administration grad h: well he was sort of my contact , so i just need to find out who 's running it now . professor b: ok . grad h: so . postdoc g: i see that lila has a luncheon meeting in here periodically . phd a: yeah , i mean , it one thing that would be nice postdoc g: i do n't know phd a: and this it sounds bizarre but , i 'd really like to look at to get some meetings where there 's a little bit of heated discussion , like ar arguments and or emotion , and things like that . and so i was thinking if there 's any like berkeley political groups or something . i mean , that 'd be perfect . some group , `` yes , we must `` grad h: who 's willing to get recorded and distributed ? phd a: well , you know , something phd c: yeah . grad f: yeah , i do n't think the more political argumentative ones would be willing to phd a: um professor b: yeah , with with with potential use from the defense department . phd d: yeah . phd a: well , ok . professor b: yeah . phd a: no , but maybe stu student , uh , groups or , um , film - makers , or som something a little bit colorful . phd c: yeah . grad f: yeah . exactly . postdoc g: yeah . grad h: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah . yeah , th there 's a problem there in terms of , uh , the um commercial value of of st uh , postdoc g: yeah , of course there is this problem though , that if we give them the chance to excise later we e might end up with like five minutes out of a f { comment } of m one hour phd d: film - maker . grad h: of beeps , phd c: yeah . yeah . grad h: yeah . phd a: and i do n't mean that they 're angry phd d: is postdoc g: of { comment } yes . really . phd a: but just something with some more variation in prosodic contours and so forth would be neat . so if anyone has ideas , i 'm willing to do the leg work to go try to talk to people but i do n't really know which groups are worth pursuing . postdoc g: well there was this k p f a grad h: no that 's postdoc g: but ok . grad h: legal . postdoc g: ok , ok . professor b: it it it it turned out to be a bit of a problem . phd a: or postdoc g: and i had one other one other aspect of this which is , um , uh , uh , jonathan fiscus expressed primar uh y a major interest in having meetings which were all english speakers . now he was n't trying to shape us in terms of what we gather professor b: mm - hmm . postdoc g: but that 's what he wanted me to show him . so i 'm giving him our , um our initial meeting because he asked for all english . and i think we do n't have a lot of all english meetings right now . professor b: of all all nat all native speakers . phd e: did he mean , uh did he mean and non - british ? grad h: well phd c: the all native . postdoc g: that 's what i mean , yeah . grad h: well if he meant and non - british i think we have zero . postdoc g: he does n't care . no . eh , well , british is ok . phd e: he said british was ok ? postdoc g: but but sure , sure , sure . professor b: why ? grad h: british is english ? phd c: postdoc g: yeah . different varieties of english . phd c: ooo , ooo . professor b: well , i do n't i do n't i do n't think if he did n't say that postdoc g: native speaking . native speaking english . grad h: i bet he meant native speaking american . postdoc g: yes . professor b: i bet he did . phd c: american english ? postdoc g: oh , really . grad h: so , why would he care ? phd e: knowing the application phd a: that 's professor b: i remember wh i i remember a study phd a: i was thinking , knowing the , uh , n national institute of standards , it is all professor b: i remember a study that bbn did where they trained on this was in wall street journal days or something , they trained on american english and then they tested on , uh , different native speakers from different areas . and , uh , uh , the worst match was people whose native tongue was mandarin chinese . the second worst was british english . postdoc g: that 's funny . professor b: so h it 's , you know , t postdoc g: alright . and so that would make sense . professor b: the the the german was much better , phd c: ooo , ooo . postdoc g: i did n't have the context of that . professor b: it was swiss w yeah , so it 's so i think , you know , if he 's if he 's thinking in terms of recognition kind of technology i i i think he would probably want , uh american english , postdoc g: all america , ok . grad h: i wonder if we have any . professor b: yeah . it it yeah , unless we 're gon na train with a whole bunch of postdoc g: i think that the feldman 's meetings tend to be more that way , are n't they ? i mean , i sort of feel like they have professor b: i think so , grad h: maybe . phd a: yeah , professor b: yeah . grad h: maybe . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . phd d: mmm . grad h: and maybe there are a few of with us where it was professor b: yeah . grad h: you know , dan was n't there and before jose started coming , professor b: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad h: and professor b: it 's pretty tough , uh , this group . yeah . grad h: yeah . phd c: mmm . professor b: so , uh , what about what about people who involved in some artistic endeavor ? phd d: yeah . professor b: i mean , film - making or something like that . phd a: exactly , that 's what i was professor b: you 'd think like they would be phd d: a film - maker . phd a: something where there there is actually discussion where there 's no right or wrong answer but but it 's a matter of opinion kind of thing . uh , anyway , if you if you have ideas postdoc g: it 's be fun . grad h: rasta . plp . rasta . plp . phd d: yes . grad f: we can just discu we can just have a political discussion one day . phd a: yeah , we could phd e: a any department that calls itself science phd d: department . grad f: uh , i could make that pretty phd d: yeah . grad h: well , like computer science . phd d: computer sci grad h: that postdoc g: we could get julia child . i know . phd a: i 'm i 'm actually serious grad h: that 's phd a: because , uh , you know , we have the set up here grad h: got a ticket . professor b: yeah , i know you are . phd a: and and that that has a chance to give us some very interesting fun data . so if anyone has ideas , phd d: yeah . phd a: if you know any groups that are m you know , professor b: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad h: well i had asked some some of the students at the business school . phd a: student groups c like clubs , things like that . grad f: i know grad h: i could phd a: not not professor b: put a little ad up saying , `` come here and argue `` . phd a: yeah . `` if you 're really angry at someone use our conference room . `` grad h: the business school . uh , the business school might be good . i actually spoke with some students up there phd a: oh , ok . grad h: and they they they expressed willingness back when they thought they would be doing more stuff with speech . phd a: really . grad h: but when they lost interest in speech they also stopped answering my email about other stuff , so . phd d: hmm . phd a: or people who are really h professor b: they could have a discussion about te grad f: i grad h: we should probably bleep that out . professor b: about about tax cuts or something . grad f: i heard that at cal tech they have a special room someone said that they had a special room to get all your frustrations out that you can go to and like throw things and break things . professor b: yeah , now that is not actually what we grad f: so we can like post a grad h: th - that 's not what we want . grad f: no , not to that extent phd a: well , far field mikes can pick up where they threw stuff on the wall . grad f: but , um . yeah . professor b: yeah , but we do n't want them to throw the far field mikes is the thing . phd a: oh . yeah , right . grad h: that 's right . phd d: the fa grad f: yeah . phd d: grad h: `` please throw everything in that direction . `` professor b: yeah . anyway . grad h: padded cell . postdoc g: it 'd be fun to get like a a p visit from the grad h: there was a dorm room at tech that , uh , someone had coated the walls and the ceiling , and , uh , the floor with mattresses . grad f: mmm . grad h: the entire room . professor b: i had as my fourth thing here processing of wave forms . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: what did we mean by that ? remember @ @ ? grad h: uh , liz wanted to talk about methods of improving accuracy by doing pre - processing . postdoc g: pre - processing . phd a: well i think that that was just sort of i i already asked thilo professor b: oh , you already did that . phd a: but that , um , it would be helpful if i can stay in the loop somehow with , um , people who are doing any kind of post - processing , whether it 's to separate speakers or to improve the signal - to - noise ratio , or both , um , that we can sort of try out as we 're running recognition . um , so , i is that who else is work i guess dan ellis and you phd c: dan , yeah . professor b: yeah , and dave uh gel - gelbart again , grad h: yep . phd a: and dave . phd c: yep . phd a: ok . phd d: yeah . professor b: he 's he 's interested in in fact we 're look starting to look at some echo cancellation kind of things . phd a: ok . professor b: which uh grad h: i am not sure how much that 's an issue with the close talking mikes , professor b: hmm ? grad h: but who knows ? professor b: well , let 's w i is n't that what what you want phd a: i do n't know . i 'm bad professor b: t no , so no , i w wha what you what you want when you 're saying improving the wave form you want the close talking microphone to be better . phd a: it 's like { comment } like professor b: right ? grad h: right . professor b: and the question is to w to what extent is it getting hurt by , uh by any room acoustics or is it just uh , given that it 's close it 's not a problem ? phd a: it does n't seem like big room acoustics problems to my ear professor b: uh phd a: but i 'm not an expert . it seems like a problem with cross - talk . professor b: ok , so it 's phd c: yeah . grad h: e i bet with the lapel mike there 's plenty , uh , room acoustic phd a: that that may be true . grad h: but i i think the rest is cross - talk . phd a: but i do n't know how good it can get either by those the those methods grad h: yeah . phd a: that 's true . professor b: ok . grad h: so i i think it 's just , phd a: oh , i do n't know . grad h: yeah , what you said , cross - talk . phd a: all i meant is just that as sort of as this pipeline of research is going on we 're also experimenting with different asr , uh , techniques . grad h: mm - hmm . phd a: and so it 'd be w good to know about it . phd e: so the problem is like , uh , on the microphone of somebody who 's not talking they 're picking up signals from other people { comment } and that 's causing problems ? phd a: r right , although if they 're not talking , using the the inhouse transcriptions , were sort of o k because the t no one transcribed any words there and we throw it out . phd e: mm - hmm . phd a: but if they 're talking at all and they 're not talking the whole time , so you get some speech and then a `` mm - hmm `` , and some more speech , so that whole thing is one chunk . and the person in the middle who said only a little bit is picking up the speech around it , that 's where it 's a big problem . postdoc g: you know , this does like seem like it would relate to some of what jose 's been working on as well , the encoding of the phd d: yeah . postdoc g: and and he also , he was phd a: the energy , phd d: yeah , phd a: right . exactly . phd d: energy . postdoc g: i was t i was trying to remember , you have this interface where you i you ha you showed us one time on your laptop that you you had different visual displays as speech and nonspeech events . phd d: yeah , c yeah . may i i only display the different colors for the different situation . but , eh , for me and for my problems , is uh is enough . because , eh , it 's possible , eh , eh , in a simp sample view , uh , to , nnn , to compare with c with the segment , the the kind of assessment what happened with the the different parameters . and only with a different bands of color for the , uh , few situation , eh , i consider for acoustic event is enough to @ @ . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd d: i i i see that , eh , you are considering now , eh , a very sophisticated , eh , ehm , eh , @ @ { comment } set of , eh , graphic s eh , eh , ehm , si symbols to to transcribe . no ? because , uh , before , you you are talking about the the possibility to include in the transcriber program eh , um , a set of symbols , of graphic symbol to t to mark the different situations during the transcription postdoc g: oh , i w uh - huh . phd d: during the transcription . no ? postdoc g: well , you 're saying so , uh , symbols for differences between laugh , and sigh , and and and slam the door and stuff ? phd d: yeah . yeah , yeah . the s the symbols , you you talk of before . postdoc g: or some other kind of thing ? phd d: no ? to to mark postdoc g: well , i would n't say symbols so much . the the main change that i that i see in the interface is is just that we 'll be able to more finely c uh , time things . phd d: yeah . yeah . postdoc g: but i i also st there was another aspect of your work that i was thinking about when i was talking to you phd a: hmm . postdoc g: which is that it sounded to me , liz , as though you and , uh , maybe i did n't q understand this , but it sounded to me as though part of the analysis that you 're doing involves taking segments which are of a particular type and putting them together . phd d: yeah . postdoc g: and th so if you have like a p a s you know , speech from one speaker , then you cut out the part that 's not that speaker , phd a: mm - hmm . postdoc g: and you combine segments from that same speaker to { comment } and run them through the recognizer . is that right ? phd a: well we try to find as close of start and end time of as we can to the speech from an individual speaker , postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: because then we we 're more guaranteed that the recognizer will for the forced alignment which is just to give us the time boundaries , because from those time boundaries then the plan is to compute prosodic features . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: and the sort of more space you have that is n't the thing you 're trying to align the more errors we have . um , so , you know , that that it would help to have either pre - processing of a signal that creates very good signal - to - noise ratio , postdoc g: mm - hmm . cuz i ok . phd a: which i do n't know how possible this is for the lapel , um , or to have very to have closer , um , time you know , synch times , basically , around the speech that gets transcribed in it , or both . and it 's just sort of a open world right now of exploring that . so i just wanted to see , you know , on the transcribing end from here things look good . uh , the ibm one is more it 's an open question right now . and then the issue of like global processing of some signal and then , you know , before we chop it up is is yet another way we can improve things in that . phd e: what about increasing the flexibility of the alignment ? postdoc g: ok . phd e: do you remember that thing that michael finka did ? phd a: mm - hmm . phd e: that experiment he did a while back ? phd a: right . you can , um the problem is just that the acoustic when the signal - to - noise ratio is too low , um , you you 'll get , a uh an alignment with the wrong duration pattern or it phd e: oh , so that 's the problem , is the the signal - to - noise ratio . phd a: yeah . it 's not the fact that you have like i mean , what he did is allow you to have , uh , words that were in another segment move over to the at the edges of of segmentations . phd e: mm - hmm . or even words inserted that were n't were n't there . phd a: right , things things near the boundaries where if you got your alignment wrong phd e: mm - hmm . phd a: cuz what they had done there is align and then chop . phd e: mm - hmm . phd a: um , and this problem is a little bit j more global . it 's that there are problems even in inside the alignments , uh , because of the fact that there 's enough acoustic signal there t for the recognizer to to eat , as part of a word . and it tends to do that . s so , uh , phd d: yeah . phd a: but we probably will have to do something like that in addition . anyway . so , yeah , bottom bottom line is just i wanted to make sure i can be aware of whoever 's working on these signal - processing techniques for , uh , detecting energies , phd d: yeah . phd a: because that that 'll really help us . professor b: o k , uh tea has started out there i suggest we c run through our digits and , postdoc g: ok . professor b: uh , so , ok , we 're done .

ibm has a team of people employed to transcribe meeting data , and who are transcribing single versus multiple channels .

what was suggested for the transcribers ? </s> professor b: are we on ? we 're on . ok . phd e: is it on ? phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah . ok , phd d: one , two u ok . phd a: why is it so cold in here ? professor b: so , uh , we have n't sent around the agenda . so , i uh , any agenda items anybody has , wants to talk about , what 's going on ? postdoc g: i c i could talk about the meeting . grad h: does everyone has everyone met don ? postdoc g: yeah . professor b: it 's on ? phd c: now , yeah . phd d: yeah . grad h: yeah ? ok . phd d: yeah . grad f: hello . professor b: ok , agenda item one , phd d: we went grad f: yeah . professor b: introduce don . ok , we did that . uh phd a: well , i had a just a quick question but i know there was discussion of it at a previous meeting that i missed , but just about the the wish list item of getting good quality close - talking mikes on every speaker . professor b: ok , so let 's let 's so let 's just do agenda building right now . ok , so let 's talk about that a bit . phd a: i mean , that was professor b: uh , @ @ tuss close talking mikes , better quality . ok , uh , we can talk about that . you were gon na starting to say something ? postdoc g: well , you you , um , already know about the meeting { comment } that 's coming up and i do n't know if if this is appropriate for this . i do n't know . i mean , maybe maybe it 's something we should handle outside of the meeting . professor b: no , no , that 's ok . phd e: what meeting ? professor b: we can so we can ta so n nist is nist folks are coming by next week postdoc g: ok . professor b: and so we can talk about that . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: i think phd e: who 's coming ? professor b: uh , uh , john fiscus postdoc g: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh , i think george doddington will be around as well . uh , ok , so we can talk about that . uh , i guess just hear about how things are going with , uh , uh , the transcriptions . that 's right . postdoc g: sure . mm - hmm . professor b: that would sorta be an obvious thing to discuss . um , an - anything else , uh , strike anybody ? phd a: uh , we started running recognition on one conversation but it 's the r is n't working yet . so , but if anyone has professor b: ok . phd e: wha phd a: uh , the main thing would be if anyone has , um , knowledge about ways to , uh , post - process the wave forms that would give us better recognition , that would be helpful to know about . professor b: um , grad h: dome yeah , it sounds like a topic of conversation . professor b: yeah , so , uh phd e: what about , uh , is there anything new with the speech , nonspeech stuff ? phd c: yeah , we 're working more on it but , it 's not finished . professor b: ok . alright , that seems like a a good collection of things . and we 'll undoubtedly think of other things . postdoc g: i had thought under my topic that i would mention the , uh , four items that i i , uh , put out for being on the agenda f on that meeting , which includes like the pre - segmentation and the and the developments in multitrans . professor b: oh , under the nist meeting . postdoc g: yeah , under the nist thing . professor b: ok . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: alright , why do n't we start off with this , u u i guess the order we brought them up seems fine . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: um , so , better quality close talking mikes . so the one issue was that the the , uh , lapel mike , uh , is n't as good as you would like . and so , uh , it it 'd be better if we had close talking mikes for everybody . right ? phd a: ri - um , professor b: is that is that basically the point ? phd a: yeah , the and actually in addition to that , that the the close talking mikes are worn in such a way as to best capture the signal . and the reason here is just that for the people doing work not on microphones but on sort of like dialogue and so forth , uh or and even on prosody , which don is gon na be working on soon , it adds this extra , you know , vari variable for each speaker to to deal with when the microphones are n't similar . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: right . phd a: so and i also talked to mari this morning and she also had a strong preference for doing that . and in fact she said that that 's useful for them to know in starting to collect their data too . professor b: mm - hmm . right , so one th grad h: well , so professor b: uh , well one thing i was gon na say was that , um , i we could get more , uh , of the head mounted microphones even beyond the number of radio channels we have because i think whether it 's radio or wire is probably second - order . and the main thing is having the microphone close to you , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: u although , not too close . grad h: right , so , uh , actually the way jose is wearing his is is c correct . phd d: yeah . is grad h: the good way . so you want to professor b: yeah . phd d: i it 's not cor it 's correct ? professor b: is . grad h: yeah , th that 's good . professor b: yes . phd d: yeah . grad h: so it 's towards the corner of your mouth so that breath sounds do n't get on it . phd d: yeah . yeah . grad h: and then just sort of about , uh , a thumb or a thumb and a half away from your from your mouth . phd d: yeah . yeah . uh , yeah . professor b: right . phd a: but we have more than one type of professor b: how am i d phd a: i mean , for instance , you 're phd c: yeah . grad h: and this one is n't very adjustable , phd d: yeah . grad h: so this about as good as i can get phd a: right . phd d: yeah . grad h: cuz it 's a fixed boom . phd d: is fixed . yeah . phd a: but if we could actually standardize , you know , the the microphones , uh , as much as possible that would be really helpful . professor b: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . grad h: mm - hmm . professor b: well , i mean it does n't hurt to have a few extra microphones around , phd d: yeah . professor b: so why do n't we just go out and and get an order of of if this microphone seems ok to people , uh , i 'd just get a half dozen of these things . grad h: well the onl the only problem with that is right now , um , some of the jimlets are n't working . the little the boxes under the table . professor b: yeah . grad h: and so , w uh , i 've only been able to find three jacks that are working . professor b: yeah . phd e: can we get these , wireless ? grad h: so professor b: no , but my point is phd a: but y we could just record these signals separately and time align them with the start of the meeting . professor b: r r right grad h: i i 'm not sure i 'm follow . say that again ? professor b: right now , we 've got , uh , two microphones in the room , that are not quote - unquote standard . so why do n't we replace those grad h: ok , just two . professor b: well , however many we can plug in . you know , if we can plug in three , let 's plug in three . grad h: ok . phd d: mm - yeah . professor b: also what we 've talked before about getting another , uh , radio , grad h: right . professor b: and so then that would be , you know , three more . grad h: right . ok . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: so , uh so we should go out to our full complement of whatever we can do , but have them all be the same mike . i think the original reason that it was done the other way was because , it w it was sort of an experimental thing and i do n't think anybody knew whether people would rather have more variety or or , uh , more uniformity , phd a: right . professor b: but @ @ { comment } but uh , sounds sounds fine . grad h: sounds like uniformity wins . phd d: right . phd a: well , for short term research it 's just there 's just so much effort that would have to be done up front n uh , professor b: yeah . grad h: well phd a: so yeah , uniformity would be great . grad h: yeah . phd e: is it because you you 're saying the for dialogue purposes , so that means that the transcribers are having trouble with those mikes ? is that what you mean ? phd a: well jane would know more about the transcribers . phd e: or ? postdoc g: and that 's true . i mean , i we did discuss this . uh , and and grad h: yep . couple times . postdoc g: a couple times , so , um , yeah , the transcribers notice and in fact there 're some where , um ugh well , i mean there 's it 's the double thing . it 's the equipment and also how it 's worn . phd a: right . postdoc g: and he 's always they always they just rave about how wonderful adam 's adam 's channel is . grad h: what can i say . postdoc g: and then , phd a: so does the recognizer . professor b: yeah . postdoc g: yeah . grad h: oh , really ? yeah , i 'm not surprised . i mean , `` baaah ! `` phd a: even if if you 're talking on someone else 's mike it 's still you w postdoc g: yeah , but i mean it 's not just that , it 's also you know you professor b: yeah . phd c: yeah . postdoc g: it 's also like n no breathing , no you know , it 's like it 's it 's um , professor b: yeah . postdoc g: it 's really it makes a big difference from the transcribers ' point of view grad h: yeah , it 's an advantage when you do n't breath . postdoc g: and also from the research s point of view . phd a: right . professor b: when we 're doing grad h: yeah , i think that the point of doing the close talking mike is to get a good quality signal . we 're not doing research on close talking mikes . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: yeah . grad h: so we might as well get it as uniform as we can . phd a: right . professor b: now , this is locking the barn door after the horse was stolen . we do have thirty hours , of of speech , which is done this way . grad h: yeah . phd a: that 's ok . professor b: but but , uh , yeah , for future ones we can get it a bit more uniform . phd a: great , great . grad h: so i think just do a field trip at some point . professor b: yeah , probably yeah , to the store we talked about and that grad h: yep . postdoc g: and there was some talk about , uh , maybe the h headphones that are uncomfortable for people , to grad h: yep . so , as as i said , we 'll do a field trip and see if we can get all of the same mike that 's more comfortable than than these things , which i think are horrible . postdoc g: ok . good . grad h: so . phd a: great , thank you very much . phd e: especially for people with big heads . phd a: it 's makes our job a lot easier . professor b: ok . ok . grad h: and , you know , we 're researchers , so we all have big heads . professor b: ok . phd e: yeah . professor b: yeah . uh , ok , second item was the , uh , nist visit , and what 's going on there . postdoc g: yeah . ok , so , um , uh , jonathan fiscus is coming on the second of february and i 've spoken with , uh , u u a lot of people here , not everyone . um , and , um , he expressed an interest in seeing the room and in , um , seeing a demonstration of the modified multitrans , which i 'll mention in a second , and also , um , he was interested in the pre - segmentation and then he 's also interested in the transcription conventions . grad h: mm - hmm . postdoc g: and , um so , um , it seems to me in terms of like , um , i i it wou you know , ok . so the room , it 's things like the audio and c and audi audio and acoustic acoustic properties of the room and how it how the recordings are done , and that kind of thing . and , um . ok , in terms of the multi - trans , well that that 's being modified by dave gelbart to , uh , handle multi - channel recording . grad h: oh , i should 've i was just thinking i should have invited him to this meeting . i forgot to do it . postdoc g: yeah , ok . grad h: so . phd c: yeah . postdoc g: yeah . well that 's ok , i mean we 'll grad h: sorry . postdoc g: yeah , and it 's t and it looks really great . he he has a prototype . i i , uh , @ @ { comment } did n't did n't see it , uh , yesterday but i 'm going to see it today . and , uh , that 's that will enable us to do nice um , tight time marking of the beginning and ending of overlapping segments . at present it 's not possible with limitations of of the , uh , original design of the software . and um . so , i do n't know . in terms of , like , pre - segmentation , that that continues to be , um , a terrific asset to the to the transcribers . do you i know that you 're al also supplementing it further . do you want to mention something about that c thilo , or ? phd c: um , yeah . what what i 'm doing right now is i 'm trying to include some information about which channel , uh , there 's some speech in . but that 's not working at the moment . i 'm just trying to do this by comparing energies , uh normalizing energies and comparing energies of the different channels . postdoc g: ok . phd c: and so to to give the transcribers some information in which channel there 's there 's speech in addition to to the thing we we did now which is just , uh , speech - nonspeech detection on the mixed file . so i 'm i 'm relying on on the segmentation of the mixed file postdoc g: this is good . mm - hmm . phd c: but i 'm i 'm trying to subdivide the speech portions into different portions if there is some activity in in different channels . postdoc g: excellent , so this 'd be like w e providing also speaker id potentially . phd c: but yeah . yeah . postdoc g: wonderful . wonderful . professor b: um , something i guess i did n't put in the list but , uh , on that , uh , same day later on in or maybe it 's no , actually it 's this week , uh , dave gelbart and i will be , uh , visiting with john canny who i you know , is a cs professor , postdoc g: oh . professor b: who 's interested in ar in array microphones . grad h: hcc . oh , he 's doing array mikes . professor b: yeah . and so we wan na see what commonality there is here . you know , maybe they 'd wan na stick an array mike here when we 're doing things phd e: that would be cool . grad h: yeah , that would be neat . professor b: or or maybe it 's it 's not a specific array microphone they want phd d: yeah . phd e: that would be really neat . professor b: but they might wan na just , uh , you know , you could imagine them taking the four signals from these these table mikes and trying to do something with them um , i also had a discussion so , w uh , we 'll be over over there talking with him , um , after class on friday . um , we 'll let you know what what goes with that . also had a completely unrelated thing . i had a , uh , discussion today with , uh , birger kollmeier who 's a , uh , a german , uh , scientist who 's got a fair sized group doing a range of things . it 's sort of auditory related , largely for hearing aids and so on . but but , uh , he does stuff with auditory models and he 's very interested in directionality , and location , and and , uh , head models and microphone things . and so , uh , he 's he and possibly a student , there w there 's , uh , a student of his who gave a talk here last year , uh , may come here , uh , in the fall for , uh , sort of a five month , uh , sabbatical . so he might be around . get him to give some talks and so on . but anyway , he might be interested in this stuff . phd d: mm - hmm . phd e: that that reminds me , i had a a thought of an interesting project that somebody could try to do with the data from here , either using , you know , the the mikes on the table or using signal energies from the head worn mikes , phd d: mm - hmm . phd e: and that is to try to construct a map of where people were sitting , professor b: right . phd d: uh - huh . phd e: uh , based on grad h: well dan dan had worked on that . dan ellis , phd d: uh - huh . phd e: oh , did he ? oh , that 's interesting . grad h: yeah . so that that 's the cross - correlation stuff , was was doing b beam - forming . phd d: yeah . phd e: and so you could plot out who was sitting next to who professor b: a little bit , phd e: and professor b: i mean , he did n't do a very extreme thing but just it was just sort of phd d: yeah , yeah . grad h: no , he did start on it . professor b: e e given that , the the the block of wood with the the the two mikes { comment } on either side , grad h: mm - hmm . professor b: if i 'm speaking , or if you 're speaking , or someone over there is speaking , it if you look at cross - correlation functions , you end up with a phd d: yeah . professor b: if if someone who was on the axis between the two is talking , then you you get a big peak there . and if if someone 's talking on on on , uh , one side or the other , it goes the other way . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: and then , uh , it it it even looks different if th t if the two two people on either side are talking than if one in the middle . it it actually looks somewhat different , so . phd e: hmm . well i was just thinking , you know , as i was sitting here next to thilo that um , when he 's talking , my mike probably picks it up better than your guys 's mikes . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd e: so if you just looked at grad h: oh , that 's another cl cue , phd d: yeah . phd e: yeah , { comment } looked at { comment } the energy on my mike and you could get an idea about who 's closest to who . grad h: that 's true . phd d: yeah . professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . professor b: right . phd d: yeah . phd e: and grad h: or who talks the loudest . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah , well you have to the appropriate normalizations are tricky , and and and are probably the key . grad h: yeah . phd c: yeah . phd a: you just search for adam 's voice on each individual microphone , you pretty much know where everybody 's sitting . phd c: yeah . professor b: yeah . we 've switched positions recently so you ca n't anyway . ok . so those are just a little couple of news items . postdoc g: can i ask one thing ? uh , so , um , jonathan fiscus expressed an interest in , uh , microphone arrays . professor b: yes . postdoc g: um , is there i mean b and i also want to say , his he ca n't stay all day . he needs to uh , leave for uh , from here to make a two forty - five flight grad h: oh , so just morning . postdoc g: from from oakland . professor b: right . postdoc g: so it makes the scheduling a little bit tight but do you think that , um that , uh , i john canny should be involved in this somehow or not . i have no idea . professor b: probably not but i i 'll i 'll i 'll know better after i see him this friday what what kind of level he wants to get involved . postdoc g: it 's premature . fine . good . professor b: uh , he might be excited to and it might be very appropriate for him to , uh , or he might have no interest whatsoever . i i just really do n't know . postdoc g: ok . grad h: is he involved in ach ! { comment } i 'm blanking on the name of the project . nist has has done a big meeting room instrumented meeting room with video and microphone arrays , and very elaborate software . is is he the one working on that ? professor b: well that 's what they 're starting up . grad h: ok . professor b: yeah . no , i mean , that 's what all this is about . they they have n't done it yet . they wanted to do it grad h: ok . i had read some papers that looked like they had already done some work . professor b: uh , well i think they 've instrumented a room but i do n't think they they have n't started recordings yet . they do n't have the t the transcription standards . they do n't have the phd e: are they going to do video as well ? grad h: hmm . professor b: yeah . i think . phd e: hmm . professor b: i think they are . grad h: oh , cuz what what i had read was , uh , they had a uh very large amount of software infrastructure for coordinating all this , both in terms of recording and also live room where you 're interacting the participants are interacting with the computer , and with the video , and lots of other stuff . professor b: well , i 'm i 'm i 'm not sure . grad h: so . professor b: all all i know is that they 've been talking to me about a project that they 're going to start up recording people meet in meetings . grad h: ok . well professor b: and , uh , it is related to ours . they were interested in ours . they wanted to get some uniformity with us , uh , about the transcriptions and so on . grad h: alright . professor b: and one one notable difference u u actually i ca n't remember whether they were going to routinely collect video or not , but one one , uh , difference from the audio side was that they are interested in using array mikes . so , um , i mean , i 'll just tell you the party line on that . the reason i did n't go for that here was because , uh , the focus , uh , both of my interest and of adam 's interest was uh , in impromptu situations . and we 're not recording a bunch of impromptu situations but that 's because it 's different to get data for research than to actually apply it . phd d: hmm . professor b: and so , uh , for scientific reasons we thought it was good to instrument this room as we wanted it . but the thing we ultimately wanted to aim at was a situation where you were talking with , uh , one or more other people i uh , in in an p impromptu way , where you did n't did n't actually know what the situation was going to be . and therefore it would not it 'd be highly unlikely that room would be outfitted with with some very carefully designed array of microphones . um , so it was only for that reason . it was just , you know , yet another piece of research and it seemed like we had enough troubles just phd e: so there 's no like portable array of mikes ? professor b: no . so there 's there 's uh , there 's a whole range of things there 's a whole array of things , that people do on this . phd d: hmm . professor b: so , um , the , uh the big arrays , uh , places , uh , like uh , rutgers , and brown , and other other places , uh , they have , uh , big arrays with , i do n't know , a hundred hundred mikes or something . grad h: xerox . professor b: and so there 's a wall of mikes . and you get really , really good beam - forming { comment } with that sort of thing . phd e: wow . professor b: and it 's and , um , in fact at one point we had a a proposal in with rutgers where we were gon na do some of the sort of per channel signal - processing and they were gon na do the multi - channel stuff , but it d it d we ended up not doing it . but phd e: i 've seen demonstrations of the microphone arrays . it 's amazing how how they can cut out noise . professor b: yeah , it 's r it 's really neat stuff . grad h: and then they have little ones too professor b: and then they had the little ones , yeah . grad h: but i mean but they do n't have our block of wood , right ? professor b: yeah , our block of wood is unique . phd d: yeah . professor b: but the but the no , there are these commercial things now you can buy that have four mikes or something phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and and , uh , um so , yeah , there 's there 's there 's a range of things that people do . phd e: huh . professor b: um , so if we connected up with somebody who was interested in doing that sort of thing that 's that 's a good thing to do . i mean , whenever i 've described this to other people who are interested on the with the acoustic side that 's invariably the question they ask . just like someone who is interested in the general dialogue thing will always ask `` um , are you recording video ? `` phd a: right , professor b: um , right ? phd a: right . professor b: and and the acoustic people will always say , `` well are you doing , uh , uh , array microphones ? `` so it 's it 's a good thing to do , but it does n't solve the problem of how do you solve things when there 's one mike or at best two mikes in in this imagined pda that we have . so maybe maybe we 'll do some more of it . postdoc g: well one thing i i mean , i do n't know . i mean , i know that having an array of i mean , i would imagine it would be more expensive to have a an array of microphones . but could n't you kind of approximate the natural sis situation by just shutting off uh , channels when you 're later on ? i mean , it seems like if the microphones do n't effect each other then could n't you just , you know , record them with an array and then just not use all the data ? grad h: it 's it 's just a lot of infrastructure that for our particular purpose we felt we did n't need to set up . postdoc g: i see . phd a: yeah . postdoc g: fine . professor b: yeah , if ninety - nine percent of what you 're doing is c is shutting off most of the mikes , then going through the postdoc g: ok . professor b: but if you get somebody who 's who who has that as a primary interest then that put then that drives it in that direction . grad h: that 's right , i mean if someone if someone came in and said we really want to do it , phd a: right . grad h: i mean , we do n't care . that would be fine , phd e: so to save that data you you have to have one channel recording per mike in the array ? grad h: buy more disk space . professor b: well , uh , at some level at some level . phd e: is that grad h: i usually do a mix . professor b: but then , you know , there 's it there 's phd e: what you save , i mean , if you 're going to do research with it . yeah professor b: there 's i i do n't know what they 're going to do and i do n't know how big their array is . obviously if you were gon na save all of those channels for later research you 'd use up a lot of space . phd e: yeah . professor b: and , th phd e: hmm . grad h: well their software infrastructure had a very elaborate design for plugging in filters , and mixers , and all sorts of processing . so that they can do stuff in real time and not save out each channel individually . professor b: yeah . yeah . phd e: mmm . grad h: so it was , uh phd d: yeah . professor b: but i mean , uh , for optimum flexibility later you 'd want to save each channel . but i think in practical situations you would have some engine of some sort doing some processing to reduce this to some to the equivalent of a single microphone that was very directional . phd e: uh , oh , ok , i see . professor b: right ? phd a: i mean , it seems professor b: so phd e: sort of saving the result of the beam - forming . phd d: yeah . phd a: it seems to me that there 's you know , there are good political reasons for for doing this , just getting the data , because there 's a number of sites like right now sri is probably gon na invest a lot of internal funding into recording meetings also , which is good , um , but they 'll be recording with video and they 'll be you know , it 'd be nice if we can have at least , uh , make use of the data that we 're recording as we go since it 's sort of this is the first site that has really collected these really impromptu meetings , um , and just have this other information available . so , if we can get the investment in just for the infra infrastructure and then , i do n't know , save it out or have whoever 's interested save that data out , transfer it there , it 'd be g it 'd be good to have have the recording . i think . grad h: you mean to to actually get a microphone array and do that ? phd a: well , if even if we 're not grad h: and video and phd a: i 'm not sure about video . that 's sort of an video has a little different nature since right n right now we 're all being recorded but we 're not being taped . um , but it definitely in the case of microphone arrays , since if there was a community interested in this , then grad h: well , but i think we need a researcher here who 's interested in it . to push it along . professor b: see the problem is it it took , uh , uh , it took at least six months for dan to get together the hardware and the software , and debug stuff in in the microphones , and in the boxes . and it was a really big deal . and so i think we could get a microphone array in here pretty easily and , uh , have it mixed to to one channel of some sort . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: but , e i think for i mean , how we 're gon na decide for for maximum flexibility later you really do n't want to end up with just one channel that 's pointed in the direction of the the the p the person with the maximum energy or something like that . i mean , you you want actually to you want actually to have multiple channels being recorded so that you can and to do that , it we 're going to end up greatly increasing the disk space that we use up , we also only have boards that will take up to sixteen channels and in this meeting , we 've got eight people and and six mikes . and there we 're already using fourteen . grad h: and we actually only have fifteen . professor b: e grad h: one of them 's phd d: yeah . grad h: details . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . grad h: but fifteen , not sixteen . phd a: well if there 's a way to say time to sort of solve each of these f those professor b: yeah . phd a: so suppose you can get an array in because there 's some person at berkeley who 's interested and has some equipment , uh , and suppose we can as we save it we can , you know , transfer it off to some other place that that holds this this data , who 's interested , and even if icsi it itself is n't . um , and it it seems like as long as we can time align the beginning , do we need to mix it with the rest ? i do n't know . you know ? the professor b: yeah . so i think you 'd need a separate a separate set up phd a: so yeah . professor b: and the assumption that you could time align the two . phd a: i mean it 's just it 's worth considering as sort of grad h: and y it 'd certainly gets skew . phd a: once you make the up front investment { comment } and can sort of save it out each time , and and not have to worry about the disk space factor , then it mi it might be worth having the data . professor b: i 'm not so much worried about disk space actually . i mentioned that , b as a practical matter , grad h: just professor b: but the real issue is that , uh , there is no way to do a recording extended to what we have now with low skew . so you would have a t completely separate set up , phd a: right . professor b: which would mean that the sampling times and so forth would be all over the place compared to this . so it would depend on the level of pr processing you were doing later , but if you 're d i the kind of person who 's doing array processing you actually care about funny little times . and and so you actually wou would want to have a completely different set up than we have , phd a: i see . professor b: one that would go up to thirty - two channels or something . phd a: mmm . professor b: so basically grad h: or a hundred thirty - two . professor b: or a hun yeah . so , i 'm kinda skeptical , but um i think that phd a: mmm . professor b: so , uh , i do n't think we can share the resource in that way . but what we could do is if there was someone else who 's interested they could have a separate set up which they would n't be trying to synch with ours which might be useful for for them . phd a: right , i mean at least they 'd have the data and the transcripts , professor b: and then we can offer up the room , phd a: and right . professor b: yeah , we can o offer the meetings , and the physical space , and and yeah , the transcripts , and so on . phd a: ok . right , i mean , just it 'd be nice if we have more information on the same data . you know , and professor b: yeah . phd a: but it 's if it 's impossible or if it 's a lot of effort then you have to just balance the two , professor b: well i thi phd a: so professor b: yeah , the thing will be , u u in in again , in talking to these other people to see what you know , what what we can do . phd a: right . professor b: uh , we 'll see . phd e: is there an interest in getting video recordings for these meetings ? professor b: right , so we have we phd e: i mean grad h: yes , absolutely . but it 's exactly the same problem , that you have an infrastructure problem , you have a problem with people not wanting to be video taped , and you have the problem that no one who 's currently involved in the project is really hot to do it . phd e: hmm . so there 's not enough interest to overcome all of grad h: mm - hmm . phd a: right . internally , but i know there is interest from other places that are interested in looking at meeting data and having the video . so it 's just postdoc g: yeah , w although i m i i have to u u mention the human subjects problems , that i increase with video . phd a: right , that 's true . professor b: yeah , so it 's , uh , people people getting shy about it . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: there 's this human subjects problem . there 's the fact that then um , if i i i 've heard comments about this before , `` why do n't you just put on a video camera ? `` but you know , it 's sort of like saying , `` uh , well we 're primarily interested in in some dialogue things , uh , but , uh , why do n't we just throw a microphone out there . `` i mean , the thing is , once you actually have serious interest in any of these things then you actually have to put a lot of effort in . phd e: mmm . professor b: and , uh , you really want to do it right . grad h: i know . yep . professor b: so i think nist or ldc , or somebody like that i think is much better shape to do all that . we there will be other meeting recordings . we wo n't be the only place doing meeting recordings . we are doing what we 're doing . postdoc g: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh , hopefully it 'll be useful . postdoc g: i it it occurred to me , has don signed a human subject 's form ? grad h: oh ! probably not . postdoc g: a permission form ? grad h: has don have you s did you si i thought you did actually . grad f: i was yeah , i was i was here i was here before once . grad h: did n't you read a digit string ? phd e: you were here at a meeting before . postdoc g: you were here at a meeting before . phd e: yeah . grad f: so . grad h: yeah , and you and you signed a form . grad f: oh , i think so . postdoc g: did you sign a form ? grad f: did i ? i do n't know . grad h: i 'm pretty sure . well i 'll i 'll get another one before the end of the meeting . postdoc g: ok . professor b: yeah . grad h: thank you . grad f: yeah . postdoc g: ok . professor b: yeah . postdoc g: you do n't you do n't have to leave for it . professor b: yeah , we we postdoc g: but i just grad f: can i verbally consent ? postdoc g: you know . grad h: well i ca n't , i 'm wired in . professor b: we we we we do n't , uh phd a: yeah . you 're on recor you 're being recorded postdoc g: o grad f: yeah . phd a: and professor b: we do n't we do n't perform electro - shock during these meetings , grad f: i do n't care . you can do whatever you want with it . professor b: and phd e: usually . grad f: that 's fine . professor b: yeah . ok . uh , transcriptions . postdoc g: transcriptions , ok . um , i thought about there are maybe three aspects of this . so first of all , um , i 've got eight transcribers . uh , seven of them are linguists . one of them is a graduate student in psychology . um , each i gave each of them , uh , their own data set . two of them have already finished the data sets . and the meetings run , you know , let 's say an hour . sometimes as man much as an hour and a half . phd e: how big is the data set ? postdoc g: oh , it 's what i mean is one meeting . phd e: ah , ok . postdoc g: each each person got their own meeting . i did n't want to have any conflicts of , you know , of of when to stop transcribing this one or so i wanted to keep it clear whose data were whose , and and and so phd e: uh - huh . postdoc g: and , uh , meetings , you know , i think that they 're they go as long as a almost two hours in some in some cases . so , you know , that means you know , if we 've got two already finished and they 're working on uh , right now all eight of them have differe uh , uh , additional data sets . that means potentially as many as ten might be finished by the end of the month . phd e: wow . postdoc g: hope so . but the pre - segmentation really helps a huge amount . phd c: ok . postdoc g: and , uh , also dan ellis 's innovation of the , uh the multi - channel to here really helped a r a lot in terms of clearing clearing up h hearings that involve overlaps . but , um , just out of curiosity i asked one of them how long it was taking her , one of these two who has already finished her data set . she said it takes about , uh , sixty minutes transcription for every five minutes of real time . so it 's about twelve to one , which is what we were thinking . grad h: or yep . postdoc g: it 's well in the range . grad h: it 's pretty good . postdoc g: ok . uh , these still , when they 're finished , um , that means that they 're finished with their pass through . they still need to be edited and all but but it 's word level , speaker change , the things that were mentioned . ok , now i wanted to mention the , um , teleconference i had with , uh , jonathan fiscus . we spoke for an hour and a half and , um , had an awful lot of things in common . grad h: hmm . postdoc g: he , um , um , he in indicated to me that they 've that he 's been , uh , looking , uh , uh , spending a lot of time with i 'm not quite sure the connection , but spending a lot of time with the atlas system . and i guess that i mean , i i need to read up on that . and there 's a web site that has lots of papers . but it looks to me like that 's the name that has developed for the system that bird and liberman developed { comment } for the annotated graphs approach . grad h: mm - hmm . postdoc g: so what he wants me to do and what we what we will do and uh , is to provide them with the u already transcribed meeting for him to be able to experiment with in this atlas system . and they do have some sort of software , at least that 's my impression , related to atlas and that he wants to experiment with taking our data and putting them in that format , and see how that works out . i i i explained to him in in detail the , uh , conventions that we 're using here in this in this word level transcript . and , um , you know , i i explained , you know , the reasons that that we were not coding more elaborately and and the focus on reliability . he expressed a lot of interest in reliability . it 's like he 's he 's really up on these things . he 's he 's very um , independently he asked , `` well what about reliability ? `` so , he 's interested in the consistency of the encoding and that sort of thing . ok , um phd a: sorry , can you explain what the atlas i 'm not familiar with this atlas system . postdoc g: well , you know , at this point i think uh , well adam 's read more in more detail than i have on this . i need to acquaint myself more with it . but , um , there there is a way of viewing uh , whenever you have coding categories , um , and you 're dealing with uh , a taxonomy , then you can have branches that that have alternative , uh , choices that you could use for each each of them . and it just ends up looking like a graphical representation . grad h: is is is atlas the his annotated transcription graph stuff ? i do n't remember the acronym . the the one the what i think you 're referring to , they they have this concept of an an annotated transcription graph representation . phd a: oh . oh . postdoc g: yeah . grad h: and that 's basically what i based the format that i did i based it on their work almost directly , in combination with the tei stuff . and so it 's very , very similar . and so it 's it 's a data representation and a set of tools for manipulating transcription graphs of various types . phd e: is this the project that 's sort of , uh , between , uh , nist and and , uh , a couple of other places ? postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd e: the the postdoc g: including ldc . phd e: yeah , postdoc g: i think so . grad h: yep . phd e: y right , ok . postdoc g: mm - hmm . then there 's their web site that has lots of papers . and i looked through them and they mainly had to do with this , um , this , uh , tree structure , uh , annotated tree diagram thing . phd a: mmm . postdoc g: so , um , um and , you know , in terms of like the conventions that i 'm a that i 've adopted , it there there 's no conflict at all . grad h: right . postdoc g: and he was , you know , very interested . and , `` oh , and how 'd you handle this ? `` and i said , `` well , you know , this way `` and and and we had a really nice conversation . um , ok , now i also wanted to say in a different a different direction is , brian kingsbury . so , um , i corresponded briefly with him . i , uh , c i he still has an account here . i told him he could ssh on and use multi - trans , and have a look at the already done , uh , transcription . and he and he did . and what he said was that , um , what they 'll be providing is will not be as fine grained in terms of the time information . and , um , that 's , uh you know , i need to get back to him and and , uh , you know , explore that a little bit more and see what they 'll be giving us in specific , phd a: hmm . phd e: the p the people postdoc g: but i just have n't had time yet . phd e: the the folks that they 're , uh , subcontracting out the transcription to , are they like court reporters postdoc g: sorry , what ? yes . phd e: or postdoc g: apparently well , i get the sense they 're kind of like that . like it 's like a pool of of somewhat uh , secretarial i do n't think that they 're court reporters . i do n't think they have the special keyboards and that and that type of training . phd e: mm - hmm . postdoc g: i i get the sense they 're more secretarial . and that , um , uh , what they 're doing is giving them phd e: hmm . like medical transcriptionist type people grad h: nu - it 's mostly it 's for their speech recognition products , phd e: but are n't they 're postdoc g: yep . grad h: that they 've hired these people to do . phd e: oh , so they 're hiring them , they 're coming . it 's not a service they send the tapes out to . grad h: well they they do send it out but my understanding is that that 's all this company does is transcriptions for ibm for their speech product . phd e: ah ! oh . ok . i gotcha . grad h: so most of it 's viavoice , people reading their training material for that . phd e: i see . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd e: i see . postdoc g: up to now it 's been monologues , uh , as far my understood . grad h: yep , exactly . postdoc g: and and what they 're doing is phd e: mm - hmm . grad h: yep . postdoc g: brian himself downloaded so so , um , adam sent them a cd and brian himself downloaded uh , cuz , you know , i mean , we wanted to have it so that they were in familiar f terms with what they wanted to do . he downloaded from the cd onto audio tapes . and apparently he did it one channel per audio tape . so each of these people is transcribing from one channel . grad h: right . phd e: oh . postdoc g: and then what he 's going to do is check it , a before they go be beyond the first one . check it and , you know , adjust it , and all that . phd e: so each person gets one of these channels grad h: right . professor b: so if they hear something off in the distance they do n't they just go phd e: ok . postdoc g: i i do n't know . grad h: well , but that 's ok , because , you know , you 'll do all them and then combine them . phd e: but there could be problems , right ? with that . postdoc g: i have t i , you know i phd c: yep . postdoc g: i think it would be difficult to do it that way . i really phd a: yeah . phd e: well if you 're tran if you got that channel right there postdoc g: d uh , in my case phd c: yeah . grad h: no , no . we 're talking about close talking , not the not the desktop . phd d: no , close talk . professor b: are you ? postdoc g: yes . well i th i think so . grad h: i sure hope so . it 'd be really foolish to do otherwise . postdoc g: yeah , i i would think that it would be kind of hard to come out with yeah . phd a: i i think it 's sort of hard just playing the you know , just having played the individual files . and i i mean , i know you . i know what your voice sounds like . i 'm sort of familiar with phd c: yeah . phd a: uh , it 's pretty hard to follow , especially grad h: one side . phd a: there are a lot of words that are so reduced phonetically that make sense when you know what the person was saying before . postdoc g: i agree . phd c: yeah . phd e: yeah , that 's phd a: uh , it sort of depends where you are in postdoc g: and especially since a lot of these phd d: yeah . grad h: but i mean we had this we 've had this discussion many times . postdoc g: yeah , we have . grad h: and the answer is we do n't actually know the answer because we have n't tried both ways . postdoc g: well , except i can say that my transcribers use the mixed signal mostly grad h: so . mm - hmm . phd a: mm - hmm . phd e: right . postdoc g: unless there 's a huge disparity in terms of the volume on on the mix . in which case , you know , they they would n't be able to catch anything except the prominent { comment } channel , grad h: right . phd c: yeah . postdoc g: then they 'll switch between . grad h: well i think that that might change if you wanted really fine time markings . postdoc g: but but really well , ok . grad h: so . professor b: but they 're not giving f really fine time markings . postdoc g: yeah , well phd a: actually , are th so are they giving any time markings ? grad h: right . phd a: in other words , if postdoc g: well , i have to ask him . phd a: yeah . postdoc g: and that 's that 's my email to him . that needs to be forthcoming . phd a: cuz ok . postdoc g: but but the , uh i did want to say that it 's hard to follow one channel of a conversation even if you know the people , and if you 're dealing furthermore with highly abstract network concepts you 've never heard of so , you know , one of these people was was transcribing the , uh , networks group talk and she said , `` i do n't really know what a lot of these abbreviations are , `` `` but i just put them in parentheses cuz that 's the that 's the convention and i just `` cuz you know , if you do n't know grad h: oh , i 'd be curious to to look at that . phd e: just out of curiosity , i mean grad h: they also all have h heavy accents . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . postdoc g: yeah . grad h: the networks group meetings are all phd e: given all of the effort that is going on here in transcribing why do we have i b m doing it ? why not just do it all ourselves ? professor b: um , it 's historical . i mean , uh , some point ago we thought that uh , it `` boy , we 'd really have to ramp up to do that `` , phd c: uh - huh . phd d: no , just professor b: you know , like we just did , and , um , here 's , uh , a a , uh , collaborating institution that 's volunteered to do it . phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: so , that was a contribution they could make . uh in terms of time , money , you know ? phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: and it still might be a good thing phd e: i 'm just wondering now phd a: actu yeah , mar - mari asked me the same question as sort of professor b: but phd e: well , i 'm i 'm wondering now if it 's grad h: well we can talk about more details later . phd a: um , you know , yeah , whether to professor b: yeah . yeah . yeah , so . phd e: hmm . professor b: we 'll see . i mean , i think , th you know , they they they 've proceeded along a bit . let 's see what comes out of it , and and , uh , you know , have some more discussions with them . postdoc g: mm - hmm . it 's very a real benefit having brian involved because of his knowledge of what the how the data need to be used and so what 's useful to have in the format . grad h: yeah . professor b: mm - hmm . yeah . grad h: so , um , liz , with with the sri recognizer , { comment } can it make use of some time marks ? phd a: ok , so this is a , um , grad h: i i guess i do n't know what that means . phd a: and actually i should say this is what don has b uh , he 's already been really helpful in , uh , chopping up these so so first of all you um , i mean , for the sri front - end , we really need to chop things up into pieces that are f not too huge . um , but second of all , uh in general because some of these channels , i 'd say , like , i do n't know , at least half of them probably { comment } on average are g are ha are have a lot of cross - ta sorry , some of the segments have a lot of cross - talk . um , it 's good to get sort of short segments if you 're gon na do recognition , especially forced alignment . so , uh , don has been taking a first stab actually using jane 's first the fir the meeting that jane transcribed which we did have some problems with , and thilo , uh , i think told me why this was , but that people were switching microphones around { comment } in the very beginning , so the sri re phd c: no , th yeah . no . they they were not switching them but what they were they were adjusting them , phd a: and they they were not phd c: so . grad f: mmm . grad h: adjusting . oh . phd a: yeah . phd c: and aft after a minute or so it 's it 's way better . phd a: so we have to sort of normalize { comment } the front - end and so forth , and have these small segments . phd c: so yep . phd a: so we 've taken that and chopped it into pieces based always on your your , um , cuts that you made on the mixed signal . and so that every every speaker has the same cuts . and if they have speech in it we run it through . and if they do n't have speech in it we do n't run it through . and we base that knowledge on the transcription . grad h: on just on the marks . right ? phd a: um , the problem is if we have no time marks , then for forced alignment we actually do n't know where you know , in the signal the transcriber heard that word . and so grad h: oh , i see , phd a: i mean , if if it 's a whole conversation and we get a long , uh , you know , par paragraph of of talk , grad h: it 's for the length . i see . phd a: uh , i do n't know how they do this . um , we actually do n't know which piece goes where . grad h: i understand . phd a: and , um , i think with phd e: well you would need to like a forced alignment before you did the chopping , right ? phd a: no , we used the fact that so when jane transcribes them the way she has transcribers doing this , whether it 's with the pre - segmentation or not , grad h: it 's already chunked . phd a: they have a chunk and then they transcribes { comment } the words in the chunk . and maybe they choose the chunk or now they use a pre - segmentation and then correct it if necessary . but there 's first a chunk and then a transcription . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: then a chunk , then a transcription . that 's great , cuz the recognizer can grad h: uh , it 's all pretty good sized for the recognizer also . phd a: right , and it it helps that it 's made based on sort of heuristics and human ear i think . postdoc g: good . oh good . phd a: th - but there 's going to be a real problem , uh , even if we chop up based on speech silence these , uh , the transcripts from i b m , we do n't actually know where the words were , which segment they belonged to . grad h: right . phd a: so that 's sort of what i 'm worried about right now . phd e: why not do a a a forced alignment ? grad h: that 's what she 's saying , is that you ca n't . phd a: if you do a forced alignment on something really grad h: got uh six sixty minutes of phd a: well even if you do it on something really long you need to know you can always chop it up but you need to have a reference of which words went with which , uh , chop . postdoc g: now was n't i thought that one of the proposals was that ibm was going to do an initial forced alignment , phd a: so postdoc g: after they grad h: yeah , but professor b: i i think that they are , grad h: we 'll have to talk to brian . professor b: um , yeah , i 'm sure they will and so we we have to have a dialogue with them about it . phd a: yeah . professor b: i mean , it sounds like liz has some concerns phd a: maybe they have some you know , maybe actually there is some , even if they 're not fine grained , maybe the transcribers professor b: and phd a: uh , i do n't know , maybe it 's saved out in pieces or or something . that would help . postdoc g: yeah . phd a: but , uh , it 's just an unknown right now . postdoc g: yeah . i i need to to write to him . phd a: so . postdoc g: i just you know , it 's like i got over - taxed with the timing . phd a: right . but the it is true that the segments i have n't tried the segments that thilo gave you but the segments that in your first meeting are great . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: i mean , that 's that 's a good length . postdoc g: a good size . good . phd a: right , cuz postdoc g: well , i i was thinking it would be fun to to uh , uh , if if you would n't mind , { comment } to give us a pre - segmentation . phd a: y yeah . phd c: yeah . postdoc g: uh , maybe you have one already of that first m of the meeting that uh , the first transcribed meeting , the one that i transcribed . phd c: um , i 'm sure i have some postdoc g: do you have a could you generate a pre - segmentation ? grad h: february sixteenth i think . phd c: but but that 's the one where we 're , um , trai training on , so that 's a little bit grad h: oh . postdoc g: oh , i see . phd c: it 's a little bit at odd to postdoc g: oh , darn . of course , of course , of course . yeah , ok . phd c: yeah . phd a: and actually as you get transcripts just , um , for new meetings , { comment } um , we can try postdoc g: uh - huh . phd a: i mean , the the more data we have to try the the alignments on , um , the better . so it 'd be good for just to know as transcriptions are coming through the pipeline from the transcribers , just to sort of we 're playing around with sort of uh , parameters f on the recognizer , postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: cuz that would be helpful . especially as you get , en more voices . postdoc g: excellent , good . phd a: the first meeting had i think just four people , phd c: four speakers , yeah . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . postdoc g: yeah , liz and i spoke d w at some length on tuesday and and i and i was planning to do just a a preliminary look over of the two that are finished and then give them to you . phd a: oh , great , great . postdoc g: yeah . phd a: so . professor b: that 's great . i guess the other thing , i i ca n't remember if we discussed this in the meeting but , uh , i know you and i talked about this a little bit , there was an issue of , uh , suppose we get in the , uh , i guess it 's enviable position although maybe it 's just saying where the weak link is in the chain , uh , where we we , uh uh , we have all the data transcribed and we have these transcribers and we were we 're the we 're still a bit slow on feeding at that point we 've caught up and the the the , uh , the weak link is is recording meetings . ok , um , two questions come , is you know what how how do we uh , it 's not really a problem at the moment cuz we have n't reached that point but how do we step out the recorded meetings ? and the other one is , um , uh , is there some good use that we can make of the transcribers to do other things ? so , um , i i ca n't remember how much we talked about this in this meeting but there was grad h: we had spoken with them about it . postdoc g: and there is one use that that also we discussed which was when , uh , dave finishes the and maybe it 's already finished the the modification to multi - trans which will allow fine grained encoding of overlaps . uh , then it would be very these people would be very good to shift over to finer grain encoding of overlaps . it 's just a matter of , you know , providing so if right now you have two overlapping segments in the same time bin , well with with the improvement in the database in in the , uh , sorry , in the interface , it 'd be possible to , um , you know , just do a click and drag thing , and get the uh , the specific place of each of those , the time tag associated with the beginning and end of of each segment . professor b: right , so i think we talking about three level three things . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: one one was uh , we had s had some discussion in the past about some very high level labelings , postdoc g: yeah . the types of overlaps professor b: types of overlaps , and so forth that that someone could do . second was , uh , somewhat lower level postdoc g: mm - hmm . professor b: just doing these more precise timings . and the third one is is , uh , just a completely wild hair brained idea that i have which is that , um , if , uh if we have time and people are able to do it , to take some subset of the data and do some very fine grained analysis of the speech . for instance , uh , marking in some overlapping potentially overlapping fashion , uh , the value of , uh , ar articulatory features . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: you know , just sort of say , ok , it 's voiced from here to here , there 's it 's nasal from here to here , and so forth . um , as opposed to doing phonetic uh , you know , phonemic and the phonetic analysis , grad h: professor b: and , uh , assuming , uh , articulatory feature values for those those things . um , obviously that 's extremely time - consuming . uh phd e: that would be really valuable i think . professor b: but , uh , we could do it on some small subset . postdoc g: also if you 're dealing with consonants that would be easier than vowels , would n't it ? i mean , i would think that that , uh , being able to code that there 's a a fricative extending from here to here would be a lot easier than classifying precisely which vowel that was . grad h: which one . phd a: mmm . professor b: mm - hmm . postdoc g: i think vowels vowels are i think harder . professor b: well , yeah , phd c: yeah . professor b: but i think also it 's just the issue that that when you look at the u w u u when you look at switchboard for instance very close up there are places where whether it 's a consonant or a vowel you still have trouble calling it a particular phone postdoc g: mm - hmm . professor b: at that point postdoc g: mm - hmm , ok . grad h: yeah , but but just saying what the professor b: because it 's you know , there 's this movement from here to here postdoc g: yeah , i 'm sure . uh , yeah , i i know . phd a: right . professor b: and and and it 's so i phd e: you 're saying r sort of remove the high level constraints and go bottom - up . professor b: yeah , describe describe it . phd e: then just say grad h: yep , just features . phd a: mmm . professor b: now i 'm suggesting articulatory features . maybe there 's there 's even a better way to do it but it but but that 's , you know , sort of a traditional way of describing these things , phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: um , and uh , i mean , actually this might be a g neat thing to talk to postdoc g: that 's nice . phd e: acoustic features versus psychological categories . professor b: sort of . i mean , it 's still phd e: yeah . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: some sort of categories but but something that allows for overlapping change of these things and then this would give some more ground work for people who were building statistical models that allowed for overlapping changes , different timing changes as opposed to just `` click , you 're now in this state , which corresponds to this speech sound `` and so on . phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: so this is like gestural uh , these g professor b: yeah , something like that . phd a: right . ok . professor b: i mean , actually if we get into that it might be good to , uh , uh , haul john ohala into this phd a: right . professor b: and ask his his views on it i think . grad h: yeah . phd a: but is is the goal there to have this on meeting data , postdoc g: excellent . phd a: like so that you can do far field studies { comment } of those gestures or um , or is it because you think there 's a different kind of actual production in meetings { comment } that people use ? or ? professor b: no , i think i think it 's for for for that purpose i 'm just viewing meetings as being a a neat way to get people talking naturally . and then you have i and then and then it 's natural in all senses , phd e: just a source of data ? phd a: i see . professor b: in the sense that you have microphones that are at a distance that you know , one might have , and you have the close mikes , and you have people talking naturally . and the overlap is just indicative of the fact that people are talking naturally , phd a: uh - huh . phd d: yeah . phd a: right . professor b: right ? so so i think that given that it 's that kind of corpus , phd d: yeah . professor b: if it 's gon na be a very useful corpus um , if you say w ok , we 've limited the use by some of our , uh , uh , censored choices , we do n't have the video , we do n't and so forth , but there 's a lot of use that we could make of it by expanding the annotation choices . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh , most of the things we 've talked about have been fairly high level , and being kind of a bottom - up person i thought maybe we 'd , do some of the others . grad h: hmm . phd a: right . yeah , that would be good . postdoc g: it 's a nice balance . professor b: yeah . postdoc g: that would be really nice to offer those things with that wide range . phd a: right . professor b: yeah and hopefully someone would make use of it . postdoc g: really nice . professor b: i mean , people did n't postdoc g: yeah . professor b: uh , i mean , people have made a lot of use of of timit and , uh w due to its markings , and then the switchboard transcription thing , well i think has been very useful for a lot of people . grad h: right . phd a: that 's true . professor b: so phd a: i guess i wanted to , um , sort of make a pitch for trying to collect more meetings . postdoc g: cool . phd a: um , professor b: yeah . phd a: i actually i talked to chuck fillmore and i think they 've what , vehemently said no before but this time he was n't vehement and he said you know , `` well , liz , come to the meeting tomorrow professor b: yeah . phd a: and try to convince people `` . so i 'm gon na try . go to their meeting tomorrow and see if we can try , uh , to convince them postdoc g: mm - hmm . good . professor b: cuz they have something like three or four different meetings , phd a: because they have and they have very interesting meetings from the point of view of a very different type of of talk than we have here professor b: right ? postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd d: talk phd a: and definitely than the front end meeting , probably . um phd e: you mean in terms of the topic topics ? phd a: well , yes and in terms of the the fact that they 're describing abstract things and , uh , just dialogue - wise , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: right . phd e: mm - hmm . phd a: um , so i 'll try . and then the other thing is , i do n't know if this is at all useful , but i asked lila if i can maybe go around and talk to the different departments in this building to see if there 's any groups that , for a free lunch , professor b: yes . phd a: if we can still offer that , might be willing professor b: great . grad h: you mean non - icsi ? phd a: non - icsi , non - academic , grad h: yeah , i guess you you can try phd a: you know , like government people , grad h: but phd a: i do n't know . grad h: the problem is so much of their stuff is confidential . phd a: so . phd d: yeah . postdoc g: yeah . grad h: it would be very hard for them . phd a: is is it in these departments ? phd d: yeah . postdoc g: also it does seem like it takes us way out of the demographic . i mean , it seems like we we had this idea before of having like linguistics students brought down for free lunches grad h: well , tha i think that 's her point . postdoc g: and that 's a nice idea . phd a: right , and then we could also we might try advertising again because i think it 'd be good if if we can get a few different sort of non - internal types of meetings postdoc g: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd a: and just also more data . so . phd e: does does john ohala have weekly phonetics lab meetings ? postdoc g: mm - hmm . grad h: and i think , uh , if we could get phd a: so i actually wrote to him and he answered , `` great , that sounds really interesting `` . but i never heard back because we did n't actually advertise openly . we a i mean w i told i d asked him privately . um , and it is a little bit of a trek for campus folks . postdoc g: mm - hmm . grad h: yeah . you might give them a free lunch . phd a: um , so it 's still worthwhile . grad h: but , um , it would be nice if we got someone other than me who knew how to set it up and could do the recording phd a: so grad h: so u i did n't have to do it each time . phd a: exactly , and and postdoc g: yeah . that 's right . phd a: and i was thinking professor b: he - he 's supposed he 's supposed to be trained to do it . phd a: yeah . plus we could also get you know , a s a student . grad h: ok , next week you 're going to do it all . phd d: yeah . phd a: and i 'm willing to try to learn . i mean , i 'm i would do my best . um , the other thing is that there was a number of things at the transcription side that , um , transcribers can do , like dialogue act tagging , grad h: it 's not that hard . phd a: disfluency tagging , um , things that are in the speech that are actually something we 're y { comment } working on for language modeling . and mari 's also interested in it , andreas as well . so if you wan na process a utterance and the first thing they say is , `` well `` , and that `` well `` is coded as some kind of interrupt u tag . uh , and things like that , um , th postdoc g: of course some of that can be li done lexically . phd a: a lot of it can be done postdoc g: and i also they are doing disfluency tagging to some degree already . phd a: great . so a a lot of this kind of postdoc g: yeah . phd a: i think there 's a second pass and i do n't really know what would exist in it . but there 's definitely a second pass worth doing to maybe encode some kinds of , you know , is it a question or not , postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: or um , that maybe these transcribers could do . so yeah . postdoc g: they 'd be really good . they 're they 're very they 're very consistent . phd a: that 'd be great . professor b: mm - hmm . postdoc g: uh , i wanted to whi while we 're uh , so , to return just briefly to this question of more meeting data , um i have two questions . one of them is , um , jerry feldman 's group , they they , uh , are they i know that they recorded one meeting . are they willing ? professor b: i think they 're open to it . i think , you know , all these things are phd a: oh , yeah . professor b: i think there 's we should go beyond , uh , icsi but , i mean , there 's a lot of stuff happening at icsi that we 're not getting now that we could . phd a: oh , that we could . professor b: so it 's just postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: ok . i thought that all these people had sort of said `` no `` twice already . professor b: yeah . so the phd a: if that 's not the case then professor b: no , no . no . so th there was the thing in fillmore 's group but even there he had n't what he 'd said `` no `` to was for the main meeting . but they have several smaller meetings a week , grad h: so . professor b: and , uh , the notion was raised before that that could happen . and it just , you know it just did n't come together phd a: just ok . phd e: well , and and the other thing too is when they originally said `` no `` they did n't know about this post - editing capability thing . professor b: but phd a: right . postdoc g: oh . professor b: yeah . yeah . phd a: right . that was a big fear . phd e: so . postdoc g: that 's important . professor b: yeah , so i mean there 's possibilities there . i think jerry 's group , yes . phd a: ok . professor b: uh , there 's there 's , uh , the networks group , uh , i do n't do they still meeting regularly or ? grad h: well , i do n't know if they meet regularly or not but they are no longer recording . professor b: but i mean , ha ha have they said they do n't want to anymore or ? grad h: um , ugh , what was his name ? professor b: uh , i i postdoc g: joe sokol ? grad h: yeah . professor b: yeah . grad h: when with him gone , it sorta trickled off . professor b: ok , so they 're down to three or four people grad h: they and they stopped yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: but the thing is three or four people is ok . grad h: yep . postdoc g: we might be able to get the administration grad h: well he was sort of my contact , so i just need to find out who 's running it now . professor b: ok . grad h: so . postdoc g: i see that lila has a luncheon meeting in here periodically . phd a: yeah , i mean , it one thing that would be nice postdoc g: i do n't know phd a: and this it sounds bizarre but , i 'd really like to look at to get some meetings where there 's a little bit of heated discussion , like ar arguments and or emotion , and things like that . and so i was thinking if there 's any like berkeley political groups or something . i mean , that 'd be perfect . some group , `` yes , we must `` grad h: who 's willing to get recorded and distributed ? phd a: well , you know , something phd c: yeah . grad f: yeah , i do n't think the more political argumentative ones would be willing to phd a: um professor b: yeah , with with with potential use from the defense department . phd d: yeah . phd a: well , ok . professor b: yeah . phd a: no , but maybe stu student , uh , groups or , um , film - makers , or som something a little bit colorful . phd c: yeah . grad f: yeah . exactly . postdoc g: yeah . grad h: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah . yeah , th there 's a problem there in terms of , uh , the um commercial value of of st uh , postdoc g: yeah , of course there is this problem though , that if we give them the chance to excise later we e might end up with like five minutes out of a f { comment } of m one hour phd d: film - maker . grad h: of beeps , phd c: yeah . yeah . grad h: yeah . phd a: and i do n't mean that they 're angry phd d: is postdoc g: of { comment } yes . really . phd a: but just something with some more variation in prosodic contours and so forth would be neat . so if anyone has ideas , i 'm willing to do the leg work to go try to talk to people but i do n't really know which groups are worth pursuing . postdoc g: well there was this k p f a grad h: no that 's postdoc g: but ok . grad h: legal . postdoc g: ok , ok . professor b: it it it it turned out to be a bit of a problem . phd a: or postdoc g: and i had one other one other aspect of this which is , um , uh , uh , jonathan fiscus expressed primar uh y a major interest in having meetings which were all english speakers . now he was n't trying to shape us in terms of what we gather professor b: mm - hmm . postdoc g: but that 's what he wanted me to show him . so i 'm giving him our , um our initial meeting because he asked for all english . and i think we do n't have a lot of all english meetings right now . professor b: of all all nat all native speakers . phd e: did he mean , uh did he mean and non - british ? grad h: well phd c: the all native . postdoc g: that 's what i mean , yeah . grad h: well if he meant and non - british i think we have zero . postdoc g: he does n't care . no . eh , well , british is ok . phd e: he said british was ok ? postdoc g: but but sure , sure , sure . professor b: why ? grad h: british is english ? phd c: postdoc g: yeah . different varieties of english . phd c: ooo , ooo . professor b: well , i do n't i do n't i do n't think if he did n't say that postdoc g: native speaking . native speaking english . grad h: i bet he meant native speaking american . postdoc g: yes . professor b: i bet he did . phd c: american english ? postdoc g: oh , really . grad h: so , why would he care ? phd e: knowing the application phd a: that 's professor b: i remember wh i i remember a study phd a: i was thinking , knowing the , uh , n national institute of standards , it is all professor b: i remember a study that bbn did where they trained on this was in wall street journal days or something , they trained on american english and then they tested on , uh , different native speakers from different areas . and , uh , uh , the worst match was people whose native tongue was mandarin chinese . the second worst was british english . postdoc g: that 's funny . professor b: so h it 's , you know , t postdoc g: alright . and so that would make sense . professor b: the the the german was much better , phd c: ooo , ooo . postdoc g: i did n't have the context of that . professor b: it was swiss w yeah , so it 's so i think , you know , if he 's if he 's thinking in terms of recognition kind of technology i i i think he would probably want , uh american english , postdoc g: all america , ok . grad h: i wonder if we have any . professor b: yeah . it it yeah , unless we 're gon na train with a whole bunch of postdoc g: i think that the feldman 's meetings tend to be more that way , are n't they ? i mean , i sort of feel like they have professor b: i think so , grad h: maybe . phd a: yeah , professor b: yeah . grad h: maybe . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . phd d: mmm . grad h: and maybe there are a few of with us where it was professor b: yeah . grad h: you know , dan was n't there and before jose started coming , professor b: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad h: and professor b: it 's pretty tough , uh , this group . yeah . grad h: yeah . phd c: mmm . professor b: so , uh , what about what about people who involved in some artistic endeavor ? phd d: yeah . professor b: i mean , film - making or something like that . phd a: exactly , that 's what i was professor b: you 'd think like they would be phd d: a film - maker . phd a: something where there there is actually discussion where there 's no right or wrong answer but but it 's a matter of opinion kind of thing . uh , anyway , if you if you have ideas postdoc g: it 's be fun . grad h: rasta . plp . rasta . plp . phd d: yes . grad f: we can just discu we can just have a political discussion one day . phd a: yeah , we could phd e: a any department that calls itself science phd d: department . grad f: uh , i could make that pretty phd d: yeah . grad h: well , like computer science . phd d: computer sci grad h: that postdoc g: we could get julia child . i know . phd a: i 'm i 'm actually serious grad h: that 's phd a: because , uh , you know , we have the set up here grad h: got a ticket . professor b: yeah , i know you are . phd a: and and that that has a chance to give us some very interesting fun data . so if anyone has ideas , phd d: yeah . phd a: if you know any groups that are m you know , professor b: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad h: well i had asked some some of the students at the business school . phd a: student groups c like clubs , things like that . grad f: i know grad h: i could phd a: not not professor b: put a little ad up saying , `` come here and argue `` . phd a: yeah . `` if you 're really angry at someone use our conference room . `` grad h: the business school . uh , the business school might be good . i actually spoke with some students up there phd a: oh , ok . grad h: and they they they expressed willingness back when they thought they would be doing more stuff with speech . phd a: really . grad h: but when they lost interest in speech they also stopped answering my email about other stuff , so . phd d: hmm . phd a: or people who are really h professor b: they could have a discussion about te grad f: i grad h: we should probably bleep that out . professor b: about about tax cuts or something . grad f: i heard that at cal tech they have a special room someone said that they had a special room to get all your frustrations out that you can go to and like throw things and break things . professor b: yeah , now that is not actually what we grad f: so we can like post a grad h: th - that 's not what we want . grad f: no , not to that extent phd a: well , far field mikes can pick up where they threw stuff on the wall . grad f: but , um . yeah . professor b: yeah , but we do n't want them to throw the far field mikes is the thing . phd a: oh . yeah , right . grad h: that 's right . phd d: the fa grad f: yeah . phd d: grad h: `` please throw everything in that direction . `` professor b: yeah . anyway . grad h: padded cell . postdoc g: it 'd be fun to get like a a p visit from the grad h: there was a dorm room at tech that , uh , someone had coated the walls and the ceiling , and , uh , the floor with mattresses . grad f: mmm . grad h: the entire room . professor b: i had as my fourth thing here processing of wave forms . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: what did we mean by that ? remember @ @ ? grad h: uh , liz wanted to talk about methods of improving accuracy by doing pre - processing . postdoc g: pre - processing . phd a: well i think that that was just sort of i i already asked thilo professor b: oh , you already did that . phd a: but that , um , it would be helpful if i can stay in the loop somehow with , um , people who are doing any kind of post - processing , whether it 's to separate speakers or to improve the signal - to - noise ratio , or both , um , that we can sort of try out as we 're running recognition . um , so , i is that who else is work i guess dan ellis and you phd c: dan , yeah . professor b: yeah , and dave uh gel - gelbart again , grad h: yep . phd a: and dave . phd c: yep . phd a: ok . phd d: yeah . professor b: he 's he 's interested in in fact we 're look starting to look at some echo cancellation kind of things . phd a: ok . professor b: which uh grad h: i am not sure how much that 's an issue with the close talking mikes , professor b: hmm ? grad h: but who knows ? professor b: well , let 's w i is n't that what what you want phd a: i do n't know . i 'm bad professor b: t no , so no , i w wha what you what you want when you 're saying improving the wave form you want the close talking microphone to be better . phd a: it 's like { comment } like professor b: right ? grad h: right . professor b: and the question is to w to what extent is it getting hurt by , uh by any room acoustics or is it just uh , given that it 's close it 's not a problem ? phd a: it does n't seem like big room acoustics problems to my ear professor b: uh phd a: but i 'm not an expert . it seems like a problem with cross - talk . professor b: ok , so it 's phd c: yeah . grad h: e i bet with the lapel mike there 's plenty , uh , room acoustic phd a: that that may be true . grad h: but i i think the rest is cross - talk . phd a: but i do n't know how good it can get either by those the those methods grad h: yeah . phd a: that 's true . professor b: ok . grad h: so i i think it 's just , phd a: oh , i do n't know . grad h: yeah , what you said , cross - talk . phd a: all i meant is just that as sort of as this pipeline of research is going on we 're also experimenting with different asr , uh , techniques . grad h: mm - hmm . phd a: and so it 'd be w good to know about it . phd e: so the problem is like , uh , on the microphone of somebody who 's not talking they 're picking up signals from other people { comment } and that 's causing problems ? phd a: r right , although if they 're not talking , using the the inhouse transcriptions , were sort of o k because the t no one transcribed any words there and we throw it out . phd e: mm - hmm . phd a: but if they 're talking at all and they 're not talking the whole time , so you get some speech and then a `` mm - hmm `` , and some more speech , so that whole thing is one chunk . and the person in the middle who said only a little bit is picking up the speech around it , that 's where it 's a big problem . postdoc g: you know , this does like seem like it would relate to some of what jose 's been working on as well , the encoding of the phd d: yeah . postdoc g: and and he also , he was phd a: the energy , phd d: yeah , phd a: right . exactly . phd d: energy . postdoc g: i was t i was trying to remember , you have this interface where you i you ha you showed us one time on your laptop that you you had different visual displays as speech and nonspeech events . phd d: yeah , c yeah . may i i only display the different colors for the different situation . but , eh , for me and for my problems , is uh is enough . because , eh , it 's possible , eh , eh , in a simp sample view , uh , to , nnn , to compare with c with the segment , the the kind of assessment what happened with the the different parameters . and only with a different bands of color for the , uh , few situation , eh , i consider for acoustic event is enough to @ @ . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd d: i i i see that , eh , you are considering now , eh , a very sophisticated , eh , ehm , eh , @ @ { comment } set of , eh , graphic s eh , eh , ehm , si symbols to to transcribe . no ? because , uh , before , you you are talking about the the possibility to include in the transcriber program eh , um , a set of symbols , of graphic symbol to t to mark the different situations during the transcription postdoc g: oh , i w uh - huh . phd d: during the transcription . no ? postdoc g: well , you 're saying so , uh , symbols for differences between laugh , and sigh , and and and slam the door and stuff ? phd d: yeah . yeah , yeah . the s the symbols , you you talk of before . postdoc g: or some other kind of thing ? phd d: no ? to to mark postdoc g: well , i would n't say symbols so much . the the main change that i that i see in the interface is is just that we 'll be able to more finely c uh , time things . phd d: yeah . yeah . postdoc g: but i i also st there was another aspect of your work that i was thinking about when i was talking to you phd a: hmm . postdoc g: which is that it sounded to me , liz , as though you and , uh , maybe i did n't q understand this , but it sounded to me as though part of the analysis that you 're doing involves taking segments which are of a particular type and putting them together . phd d: yeah . postdoc g: and th so if you have like a p a s you know , speech from one speaker , then you cut out the part that 's not that speaker , phd a: mm - hmm . postdoc g: and you combine segments from that same speaker to { comment } and run them through the recognizer . is that right ? phd a: well we try to find as close of start and end time of as we can to the speech from an individual speaker , postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: because then we we 're more guaranteed that the recognizer will for the forced alignment which is just to give us the time boundaries , because from those time boundaries then the plan is to compute prosodic features . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: and the sort of more space you have that is n't the thing you 're trying to align the more errors we have . um , so , you know , that that it would help to have either pre - processing of a signal that creates very good signal - to - noise ratio , postdoc g: mm - hmm . cuz i ok . phd a: which i do n't know how possible this is for the lapel , um , or to have very to have closer , um , time you know , synch times , basically , around the speech that gets transcribed in it , or both . and it 's just sort of a open world right now of exploring that . so i just wanted to see , you know , on the transcribing end from here things look good . uh , the ibm one is more it 's an open question right now . and then the issue of like global processing of some signal and then , you know , before we chop it up is is yet another way we can improve things in that . phd e: what about increasing the flexibility of the alignment ? postdoc g: ok . phd e: do you remember that thing that michael finka did ? phd a: mm - hmm . phd e: that experiment he did a while back ? phd a: right . you can , um the problem is just that the acoustic when the signal - to - noise ratio is too low , um , you you 'll get , a uh an alignment with the wrong duration pattern or it phd e: oh , so that 's the problem , is the the signal - to - noise ratio . phd a: yeah . it 's not the fact that you have like i mean , what he did is allow you to have , uh , words that were in another segment move over to the at the edges of of segmentations . phd e: mm - hmm . or even words inserted that were n't were n't there . phd a: right , things things near the boundaries where if you got your alignment wrong phd e: mm - hmm . phd a: cuz what they had done there is align and then chop . phd e: mm - hmm . phd a: um , and this problem is a little bit j more global . it 's that there are problems even in inside the alignments , uh , because of the fact that there 's enough acoustic signal there t for the recognizer to to eat , as part of a word . and it tends to do that . s so , uh , phd d: yeah . phd a: but we probably will have to do something like that in addition . anyway . so , yeah , bottom bottom line is just i wanted to make sure i can be aware of whoever 's working on these signal - processing techniques for , uh , detecting energies , phd d: yeah . phd a: because that that 'll really help us . professor b: o k , uh tea has started out there i suggest we c run through our digits and , postdoc g: ok . professor b: uh , so , ok , we 're done .

the group discussed the potential for assigning additional tasks to icsi 's transcriber pool , including tagging more fine-grained acoustic information , and discourse and disfluency tagging .

what ’ s the current status of transcription ? </s> professor b: are we on ? we 're on . ok . phd e: is it on ? phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah . ok , phd d: one , two u ok . phd a: why is it so cold in here ? professor b: so , uh , we have n't sent around the agenda . so , i uh , any agenda items anybody has , wants to talk about , what 's going on ? postdoc g: i c i could talk about the meeting . grad h: does everyone has everyone met don ? postdoc g: yeah . professor b: it 's on ? phd c: now , yeah . phd d: yeah . grad h: yeah ? ok . phd d: yeah . grad f: hello . professor b: ok , agenda item one , phd d: we went grad f: yeah . professor b: introduce don . ok , we did that . uh phd a: well , i had a just a quick question but i know there was discussion of it at a previous meeting that i missed , but just about the the wish list item of getting good quality close - talking mikes on every speaker . professor b: ok , so let 's let 's so let 's just do agenda building right now . ok , so let 's talk about that a bit . phd a: i mean , that was professor b: uh , @ @ tuss close talking mikes , better quality . ok , uh , we can talk about that . you were gon na starting to say something ? postdoc g: well , you you , um , already know about the meeting { comment } that 's coming up and i do n't know if if this is appropriate for this . i do n't know . i mean , maybe maybe it 's something we should handle outside of the meeting . professor b: no , no , that 's ok . phd e: what meeting ? professor b: we can so we can ta so n nist is nist folks are coming by next week postdoc g: ok . professor b: and so we can talk about that . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: i think phd e: who 's coming ? professor b: uh , uh , john fiscus postdoc g: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh , i think george doddington will be around as well . uh , ok , so we can talk about that . uh , i guess just hear about how things are going with , uh , uh , the transcriptions . that 's right . postdoc g: sure . mm - hmm . professor b: that would sorta be an obvious thing to discuss . um , an - anything else , uh , strike anybody ? phd a: uh , we started running recognition on one conversation but it 's the r is n't working yet . so , but if anyone has professor b: ok . phd e: wha phd a: uh , the main thing would be if anyone has , um , knowledge about ways to , uh , post - process the wave forms that would give us better recognition , that would be helpful to know about . professor b: um , grad h: dome yeah , it sounds like a topic of conversation . professor b: yeah , so , uh phd e: what about , uh , is there anything new with the speech , nonspeech stuff ? phd c: yeah , we 're working more on it but , it 's not finished . professor b: ok . alright , that seems like a a good collection of things . and we 'll undoubtedly think of other things . postdoc g: i had thought under my topic that i would mention the , uh , four items that i i , uh , put out for being on the agenda f on that meeting , which includes like the pre - segmentation and the and the developments in multitrans . professor b: oh , under the nist meeting . postdoc g: yeah , under the nist thing . professor b: ok . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: alright , why do n't we start off with this , u u i guess the order we brought them up seems fine . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: um , so , better quality close talking mikes . so the one issue was that the the , uh , lapel mike , uh , is n't as good as you would like . and so , uh , it it 'd be better if we had close talking mikes for everybody . right ? phd a: ri - um , professor b: is that is that basically the point ? phd a: yeah , the and actually in addition to that , that the the close talking mikes are worn in such a way as to best capture the signal . and the reason here is just that for the people doing work not on microphones but on sort of like dialogue and so forth , uh or and even on prosody , which don is gon na be working on soon , it adds this extra , you know , vari variable for each speaker to to deal with when the microphones are n't similar . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: right . phd a: so and i also talked to mari this morning and she also had a strong preference for doing that . and in fact she said that that 's useful for them to know in starting to collect their data too . professor b: mm - hmm . right , so one th grad h: well , so professor b: uh , well one thing i was gon na say was that , um , i we could get more , uh , of the head mounted microphones even beyond the number of radio channels we have because i think whether it 's radio or wire is probably second - order . and the main thing is having the microphone close to you , phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: u although , not too close . grad h: right , so , uh , actually the way jose is wearing his is is c correct . phd d: yeah . is grad h: the good way . so you want to professor b: yeah . phd d: i it 's not cor it 's correct ? professor b: is . grad h: yeah , th that 's good . professor b: yes . phd d: yeah . grad h: so it 's towards the corner of your mouth so that breath sounds do n't get on it . phd d: yeah . yeah . grad h: and then just sort of about , uh , a thumb or a thumb and a half away from your from your mouth . phd d: yeah . yeah . uh , yeah . professor b: right . phd a: but we have more than one type of professor b: how am i d phd a: i mean , for instance , you 're phd c: yeah . grad h: and this one is n't very adjustable , phd d: yeah . grad h: so this about as good as i can get phd a: right . phd d: yeah . grad h: cuz it 's a fixed boom . phd d: is fixed . yeah . phd a: but if we could actually standardize , you know , the the microphones , uh , as much as possible that would be really helpful . professor b: yeah . phd e: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . grad h: mm - hmm . professor b: well , i mean it does n't hurt to have a few extra microphones around , phd d: yeah . professor b: so why do n't we just go out and and get an order of of if this microphone seems ok to people , uh , i 'd just get a half dozen of these things . grad h: well the onl the only problem with that is right now , um , some of the jimlets are n't working . the little the boxes under the table . professor b: yeah . grad h: and so , w uh , i 've only been able to find three jacks that are working . professor b: yeah . phd e: can we get these , wireless ? grad h: so professor b: no , but my point is phd a: but y we could just record these signals separately and time align them with the start of the meeting . professor b: r r right grad h: i i 'm not sure i 'm follow . say that again ? professor b: right now , we 've got , uh , two microphones in the room , that are not quote - unquote standard . so why do n't we replace those grad h: ok , just two . professor b: well , however many we can plug in . you know , if we can plug in three , let 's plug in three . grad h: ok . phd d: mm - yeah . professor b: also what we 've talked before about getting another , uh , radio , grad h: right . professor b: and so then that would be , you know , three more . grad h: right . ok . phd d: mm - hmm . professor b: so , uh so we should go out to our full complement of whatever we can do , but have them all be the same mike . i think the original reason that it was done the other way was because , it w it was sort of an experimental thing and i do n't think anybody knew whether people would rather have more variety or or , uh , more uniformity , phd a: right . professor b: but @ @ { comment } but uh , sounds sounds fine . grad h: sounds like uniformity wins . phd d: right . phd a: well , for short term research it 's just there 's just so much effort that would have to be done up front n uh , professor b: yeah . grad h: well phd a: so yeah , uniformity would be great . grad h: yeah . phd e: is it because you you 're saying the for dialogue purposes , so that means that the transcribers are having trouble with those mikes ? is that what you mean ? phd a: well jane would know more about the transcribers . phd e: or ? postdoc g: and that 's true . i mean , i we did discuss this . uh , and and grad h: yep . couple times . postdoc g: a couple times , so , um , yeah , the transcribers notice and in fact there 're some where , um ugh well , i mean there 's it 's the double thing . it 's the equipment and also how it 's worn . phd a: right . postdoc g: and he 's always they always they just rave about how wonderful adam 's adam 's channel is . grad h: what can i say . postdoc g: and then , phd a: so does the recognizer . professor b: yeah . postdoc g: yeah . grad h: oh , really ? yeah , i 'm not surprised . i mean , `` baaah ! `` phd a: even if if you 're talking on someone else 's mike it 's still you w postdoc g: yeah , but i mean it 's not just that , it 's also you know you professor b: yeah . phd c: yeah . postdoc g: it 's also like n no breathing , no you know , it 's like it 's it 's um , professor b: yeah . postdoc g: it 's really it makes a big difference from the transcribers ' point of view grad h: yeah , it 's an advantage when you do n't breath . postdoc g: and also from the research s point of view . phd a: right . professor b: when we 're doing grad h: yeah , i think that the point of doing the close talking mike is to get a good quality signal . we 're not doing research on close talking mikes . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: yeah . grad h: so we might as well get it as uniform as we can . phd a: right . professor b: now , this is locking the barn door after the horse was stolen . we do have thirty hours , of of speech , which is done this way . grad h: yeah . phd a: that 's ok . professor b: but but , uh , yeah , for future ones we can get it a bit more uniform . phd a: great , great . grad h: so i think just do a field trip at some point . professor b: yeah , probably yeah , to the store we talked about and that grad h: yep . postdoc g: and there was some talk about , uh , maybe the h headphones that are uncomfortable for people , to grad h: yep . so , as as i said , we 'll do a field trip and see if we can get all of the same mike that 's more comfortable than than these things , which i think are horrible . postdoc g: ok . good . grad h: so . phd a: great , thank you very much . phd e: especially for people with big heads . phd a: it 's makes our job a lot easier . professor b: ok . ok . grad h: and , you know , we 're researchers , so we all have big heads . professor b: ok . phd e: yeah . professor b: yeah . uh , ok , second item was the , uh , nist visit , and what 's going on there . postdoc g: yeah . ok , so , um , uh , jonathan fiscus is coming on the second of february and i 've spoken with , uh , u u a lot of people here , not everyone . um , and , um , he expressed an interest in seeing the room and in , um , seeing a demonstration of the modified multitrans , which i 'll mention in a second , and also , um , he was interested in the pre - segmentation and then he 's also interested in the transcription conventions . grad h: mm - hmm . postdoc g: and , um so , um , it seems to me in terms of like , um , i i it wou you know , ok . so the room , it 's things like the audio and c and audi audio and acoustic acoustic properties of the room and how it how the recordings are done , and that kind of thing . and , um . ok , in terms of the multi - trans , well that that 's being modified by dave gelbart to , uh , handle multi - channel recording . grad h: oh , i should 've i was just thinking i should have invited him to this meeting . i forgot to do it . postdoc g: yeah , ok . grad h: so . phd c: yeah . postdoc g: yeah . well that 's ok , i mean we 'll grad h: sorry . postdoc g: yeah , and it 's t and it looks really great . he he has a prototype . i i , uh , @ @ { comment } did n't did n't see it , uh , yesterday but i 'm going to see it today . and , uh , that 's that will enable us to do nice um , tight time marking of the beginning and ending of overlapping segments . at present it 's not possible with limitations of of the , uh , original design of the software . and um . so , i do n't know . in terms of , like , pre - segmentation , that that continues to be , um , a terrific asset to the to the transcribers . do you i know that you 're al also supplementing it further . do you want to mention something about that c thilo , or ? phd c: um , yeah . what what i 'm doing right now is i 'm trying to include some information about which channel , uh , there 's some speech in . but that 's not working at the moment . i 'm just trying to do this by comparing energies , uh normalizing energies and comparing energies of the different channels . postdoc g: ok . phd c: and so to to give the transcribers some information in which channel there 's there 's speech in addition to to the thing we we did now which is just , uh , speech - nonspeech detection on the mixed file . so i 'm i 'm relying on on the segmentation of the mixed file postdoc g: this is good . mm - hmm . phd c: but i 'm i 'm trying to subdivide the speech portions into different portions if there is some activity in in different channels . postdoc g: excellent , so this 'd be like w e providing also speaker id potentially . phd c: but yeah . yeah . postdoc g: wonderful . wonderful . professor b: um , something i guess i did n't put in the list but , uh , on that , uh , same day later on in or maybe it 's no , actually it 's this week , uh , dave gelbart and i will be , uh , visiting with john canny who i you know , is a cs professor , postdoc g: oh . professor b: who 's interested in ar in array microphones . grad h: hcc . oh , he 's doing array mikes . professor b: yeah . and so we wan na see what commonality there is here . you know , maybe they 'd wan na stick an array mike here when we 're doing things phd e: that would be cool . grad h: yeah , that would be neat . professor b: or or maybe it 's it 's not a specific array microphone they want phd d: yeah . phd e: that would be really neat . professor b: but they might wan na just , uh , you know , you could imagine them taking the four signals from these these table mikes and trying to do something with them um , i also had a discussion so , w uh , we 'll be over over there talking with him , um , after class on friday . um , we 'll let you know what what goes with that . also had a completely unrelated thing . i had a , uh , discussion today with , uh , birger kollmeier who 's a , uh , a german , uh , scientist who 's got a fair sized group doing a range of things . it 's sort of auditory related , largely for hearing aids and so on . but but , uh , he does stuff with auditory models and he 's very interested in directionality , and location , and and , uh , head models and microphone things . and so , uh , he 's he and possibly a student , there w there 's , uh , a student of his who gave a talk here last year , uh , may come here , uh , in the fall for , uh , sort of a five month , uh , sabbatical . so he might be around . get him to give some talks and so on . but anyway , he might be interested in this stuff . phd d: mm - hmm . phd e: that that reminds me , i had a a thought of an interesting project that somebody could try to do with the data from here , either using , you know , the the mikes on the table or using signal energies from the head worn mikes , phd d: mm - hmm . phd e: and that is to try to construct a map of where people were sitting , professor b: right . phd d: uh - huh . phd e: uh , based on grad h: well dan dan had worked on that . dan ellis , phd d: uh - huh . phd e: oh , did he ? oh , that 's interesting . grad h: yeah . so that that 's the cross - correlation stuff , was was doing b beam - forming . phd d: yeah . phd e: and so you could plot out who was sitting next to who professor b: a little bit , phd e: and professor b: i mean , he did n't do a very extreme thing but just it was just sort of phd d: yeah , yeah . grad h: no , he did start on it . professor b: e e given that , the the the block of wood with the the the two mikes { comment } on either side , grad h: mm - hmm . professor b: if i 'm speaking , or if you 're speaking , or someone over there is speaking , it if you look at cross - correlation functions , you end up with a phd d: yeah . professor b: if if someone who was on the axis between the two is talking , then you you get a big peak there . and if if someone 's talking on on on , uh , one side or the other , it goes the other way . phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: and then , uh , it it it even looks different if th t if the two two people on either side are talking than if one in the middle . it it actually looks somewhat different , so . phd e: hmm . well i was just thinking , you know , as i was sitting here next to thilo that um , when he 's talking , my mike probably picks it up better than your guys 's mikes . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd e: so if you just looked at grad h: oh , that 's another cl cue , phd d: yeah . phd e: yeah , { comment } looked at { comment } the energy on my mike and you could get an idea about who 's closest to who . grad h: that 's true . phd d: yeah . professor b: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . professor b: right . phd d: yeah . phd e: and grad h: or who talks the loudest . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah , well you have to the appropriate normalizations are tricky , and and and are probably the key . grad h: yeah . phd c: yeah . phd a: you just search for adam 's voice on each individual microphone , you pretty much know where everybody 's sitting . phd c: yeah . professor b: yeah . we 've switched positions recently so you ca n't anyway . ok . so those are just a little couple of news items . postdoc g: can i ask one thing ? uh , so , um , jonathan fiscus expressed an interest in , uh , microphone arrays . professor b: yes . postdoc g: um , is there i mean b and i also want to say , his he ca n't stay all day . he needs to uh , leave for uh , from here to make a two forty - five flight grad h: oh , so just morning . postdoc g: from from oakland . professor b: right . postdoc g: so it makes the scheduling a little bit tight but do you think that , um that , uh , i john canny should be involved in this somehow or not . i have no idea . professor b: probably not but i i 'll i 'll i 'll know better after i see him this friday what what kind of level he wants to get involved . postdoc g: it 's premature . fine . good . professor b: uh , he might be excited to and it might be very appropriate for him to , uh , or he might have no interest whatsoever . i i just really do n't know . postdoc g: ok . grad h: is he involved in ach ! { comment } i 'm blanking on the name of the project . nist has has done a big meeting room instrumented meeting room with video and microphone arrays , and very elaborate software . is is he the one working on that ? professor b: well that 's what they 're starting up . grad h: ok . professor b: yeah . no , i mean , that 's what all this is about . they they have n't done it yet . they wanted to do it grad h: ok . i had read some papers that looked like they had already done some work . professor b: uh , well i think they 've instrumented a room but i do n't think they they have n't started recordings yet . they do n't have the t the transcription standards . they do n't have the phd e: are they going to do video as well ? grad h: hmm . professor b: yeah . i think . phd e: hmm . professor b: i think they are . grad h: oh , cuz what what i had read was , uh , they had a uh very large amount of software infrastructure for coordinating all this , both in terms of recording and also live room where you 're interacting the participants are interacting with the computer , and with the video , and lots of other stuff . professor b: well , i 'm i 'm i 'm not sure . grad h: so . professor b: all all i know is that they 've been talking to me about a project that they 're going to start up recording people meet in meetings . grad h: ok . well professor b: and , uh , it is related to ours . they were interested in ours . they wanted to get some uniformity with us , uh , about the transcriptions and so on . grad h: alright . professor b: and one one notable difference u u actually i ca n't remember whether they were going to routinely collect video or not , but one one , uh , difference from the audio side was that they are interested in using array mikes . so , um , i mean , i 'll just tell you the party line on that . the reason i did n't go for that here was because , uh , the focus , uh , both of my interest and of adam 's interest was uh , in impromptu situations . and we 're not recording a bunch of impromptu situations but that 's because it 's different to get data for research than to actually apply it . phd d: hmm . professor b: and so , uh , for scientific reasons we thought it was good to instrument this room as we wanted it . but the thing we ultimately wanted to aim at was a situation where you were talking with , uh , one or more other people i uh , in in an p impromptu way , where you did n't did n't actually know what the situation was going to be . and therefore it would not it 'd be highly unlikely that room would be outfitted with with some very carefully designed array of microphones . um , so it was only for that reason . it was just , you know , yet another piece of research and it seemed like we had enough troubles just phd e: so there 's no like portable array of mikes ? professor b: no . so there 's there 's uh , there 's a whole range of things there 's a whole array of things , that people do on this . phd d: hmm . professor b: so , um , the , uh the big arrays , uh , places , uh , like uh , rutgers , and brown , and other other places , uh , they have , uh , big arrays with , i do n't know , a hundred hundred mikes or something . grad h: xerox . professor b: and so there 's a wall of mikes . and you get really , really good beam - forming { comment } with that sort of thing . phd e: wow . professor b: and it 's and , um , in fact at one point we had a a proposal in with rutgers where we were gon na do some of the sort of per channel signal - processing and they were gon na do the multi - channel stuff , but it d it d we ended up not doing it . but phd e: i 've seen demonstrations of the microphone arrays . it 's amazing how how they can cut out noise . professor b: yeah , it 's r it 's really neat stuff . grad h: and then they have little ones too professor b: and then they had the little ones , yeah . grad h: but i mean but they do n't have our block of wood , right ? professor b: yeah , our block of wood is unique . phd d: yeah . professor b: but the but the no , there are these commercial things now you can buy that have four mikes or something phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and and , uh , um so , yeah , there 's there 's there 's a range of things that people do . phd e: huh . professor b: um , so if we connected up with somebody who was interested in doing that sort of thing that 's that 's a good thing to do . i mean , whenever i 've described this to other people who are interested on the with the acoustic side that 's invariably the question they ask . just like someone who is interested in the general dialogue thing will always ask `` um , are you recording video ? `` phd a: right , professor b: um , right ? phd a: right . professor b: and and the acoustic people will always say , `` well are you doing , uh , uh , array microphones ? `` so it 's it 's a good thing to do , but it does n't solve the problem of how do you solve things when there 's one mike or at best two mikes in in this imagined pda that we have . so maybe maybe we 'll do some more of it . postdoc g: well one thing i i mean , i do n't know . i mean , i know that having an array of i mean , i would imagine it would be more expensive to have a an array of microphones . but could n't you kind of approximate the natural sis situation by just shutting off uh , channels when you 're later on ? i mean , it seems like if the microphones do n't effect each other then could n't you just , you know , record them with an array and then just not use all the data ? grad h: it 's it 's just a lot of infrastructure that for our particular purpose we felt we did n't need to set up . postdoc g: i see . phd a: yeah . postdoc g: fine . professor b: yeah , if ninety - nine percent of what you 're doing is c is shutting off most of the mikes , then going through the postdoc g: ok . professor b: but if you get somebody who 's who who has that as a primary interest then that put then that drives it in that direction . grad h: that 's right , i mean if someone if someone came in and said we really want to do it , phd a: right . grad h: i mean , we do n't care . that would be fine , phd e: so to save that data you you have to have one channel recording per mike in the array ? grad h: buy more disk space . professor b: well , uh , at some level at some level . phd e: is that grad h: i usually do a mix . professor b: but then , you know , there 's it there 's phd e: what you save , i mean , if you 're going to do research with it . yeah professor b: there 's i i do n't know what they 're going to do and i do n't know how big their array is . obviously if you were gon na save all of those channels for later research you 'd use up a lot of space . phd e: yeah . professor b: and , th phd e: hmm . grad h: well their software infrastructure had a very elaborate design for plugging in filters , and mixers , and all sorts of processing . so that they can do stuff in real time and not save out each channel individually . professor b: yeah . yeah . phd e: mmm . grad h: so it was , uh phd d: yeah . professor b: but i mean , uh , for optimum flexibility later you 'd want to save each channel . but i think in practical situations you would have some engine of some sort doing some processing to reduce this to some to the equivalent of a single microphone that was very directional . phd e: uh , oh , ok , i see . professor b: right ? phd a: i mean , it seems professor b: so phd e: sort of saving the result of the beam - forming . phd d: yeah . phd a: it seems to me that there 's you know , there are good political reasons for for doing this , just getting the data , because there 's a number of sites like right now sri is probably gon na invest a lot of internal funding into recording meetings also , which is good , um , but they 'll be recording with video and they 'll be you know , it 'd be nice if we can have at least , uh , make use of the data that we 're recording as we go since it 's sort of this is the first site that has really collected these really impromptu meetings , um , and just have this other information available . so , if we can get the investment in just for the infra infrastructure and then , i do n't know , save it out or have whoever 's interested save that data out , transfer it there , it 'd be g it 'd be good to have have the recording . i think . grad h: you mean to to actually get a microphone array and do that ? phd a: well , if even if we 're not grad h: and video and phd a: i 'm not sure about video . that 's sort of an video has a little different nature since right n right now we 're all being recorded but we 're not being taped . um , but it definitely in the case of microphone arrays , since if there was a community interested in this , then grad h: well , but i think we need a researcher here who 's interested in it . to push it along . professor b: see the problem is it it took , uh , uh , it took at least six months for dan to get together the hardware and the software , and debug stuff in in the microphones , and in the boxes . and it was a really big deal . and so i think we could get a microphone array in here pretty easily and , uh , have it mixed to to one channel of some sort . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: but , e i think for i mean , how we 're gon na decide for for maximum flexibility later you really do n't want to end up with just one channel that 's pointed in the direction of the the the p the person with the maximum energy or something like that . i mean , you you want actually to you want actually to have multiple channels being recorded so that you can and to do that , it we 're going to end up greatly increasing the disk space that we use up , we also only have boards that will take up to sixteen channels and in this meeting , we 've got eight people and and six mikes . and there we 're already using fourteen . grad h: and we actually only have fifteen . professor b: e grad h: one of them 's phd d: yeah . grad h: details . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . grad h: but fifteen , not sixteen . phd a: well if there 's a way to say time to sort of solve each of these f those professor b: yeah . phd a: so suppose you can get an array in because there 's some person at berkeley who 's interested and has some equipment , uh , and suppose we can as we save it we can , you know , transfer it off to some other place that that holds this this data , who 's interested , and even if icsi it itself is n't . um , and it it seems like as long as we can time align the beginning , do we need to mix it with the rest ? i do n't know . you know ? the professor b: yeah . so i think you 'd need a separate a separate set up phd a: so yeah . professor b: and the assumption that you could time align the two . phd a: i mean it 's just it 's worth considering as sort of grad h: and y it 'd certainly gets skew . phd a: once you make the up front investment { comment } and can sort of save it out each time , and and not have to worry about the disk space factor , then it mi it might be worth having the data . professor b: i 'm not so much worried about disk space actually . i mentioned that , b as a practical matter , grad h: just professor b: but the real issue is that , uh , there is no way to do a recording extended to what we have now with low skew . so you would have a t completely separate set up , phd a: right . professor b: which would mean that the sampling times and so forth would be all over the place compared to this . so it would depend on the level of pr processing you were doing later , but if you 're d i the kind of person who 's doing array processing you actually care about funny little times . and and so you actually wou would want to have a completely different set up than we have , phd a: i see . professor b: one that would go up to thirty - two channels or something . phd a: mmm . professor b: so basically grad h: or a hundred thirty - two . professor b: or a hun yeah . so , i 'm kinda skeptical , but um i think that phd a: mmm . professor b: so , uh , i do n't think we can share the resource in that way . but what we could do is if there was someone else who 's interested they could have a separate set up which they would n't be trying to synch with ours which might be useful for for them . phd a: right , i mean at least they 'd have the data and the transcripts , professor b: and then we can offer up the room , phd a: and right . professor b: yeah , we can o offer the meetings , and the physical space , and and yeah , the transcripts , and so on . phd a: ok . right , i mean , just it 'd be nice if we have more information on the same data . you know , and professor b: yeah . phd a: but it 's if it 's impossible or if it 's a lot of effort then you have to just balance the two , professor b: well i thi phd a: so professor b: yeah , the thing will be , u u in in again , in talking to these other people to see what you know , what what we can do . phd a: right . professor b: uh , we 'll see . phd e: is there an interest in getting video recordings for these meetings ? professor b: right , so we have we phd e: i mean grad h: yes , absolutely . but it 's exactly the same problem , that you have an infrastructure problem , you have a problem with people not wanting to be video taped , and you have the problem that no one who 's currently involved in the project is really hot to do it . phd e: hmm . so there 's not enough interest to overcome all of grad h: mm - hmm . phd a: right . internally , but i know there is interest from other places that are interested in looking at meeting data and having the video . so it 's just postdoc g: yeah , w although i m i i have to u u mention the human subjects problems , that i increase with video . phd a: right , that 's true . professor b: yeah , so it 's , uh , people people getting shy about it . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: there 's this human subjects problem . there 's the fact that then um , if i i i 've heard comments about this before , `` why do n't you just put on a video camera ? `` but you know , it 's sort of like saying , `` uh , well we 're primarily interested in in some dialogue things , uh , but , uh , why do n't we just throw a microphone out there . `` i mean , the thing is , once you actually have serious interest in any of these things then you actually have to put a lot of effort in . phd e: mmm . professor b: and , uh , you really want to do it right . grad h: i know . yep . professor b: so i think nist or ldc , or somebody like that i think is much better shape to do all that . we there will be other meeting recordings . we wo n't be the only place doing meeting recordings . we are doing what we 're doing . postdoc g: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh , hopefully it 'll be useful . postdoc g: i it it occurred to me , has don signed a human subject 's form ? grad h: oh ! probably not . postdoc g: a permission form ? grad h: has don have you s did you si i thought you did actually . grad f: i was yeah , i was i was here i was here before once . grad h: did n't you read a digit string ? phd e: you were here at a meeting before . postdoc g: you were here at a meeting before . phd e: yeah . grad f: so . grad h: yeah , and you and you signed a form . grad f: oh , i think so . postdoc g: did you sign a form ? grad f: did i ? i do n't know . grad h: i 'm pretty sure . well i 'll i 'll get another one before the end of the meeting . postdoc g: ok . professor b: yeah . grad h: thank you . grad f: yeah . postdoc g: ok . professor b: yeah . postdoc g: you do n't you do n't have to leave for it . professor b: yeah , we we postdoc g: but i just grad f: can i verbally consent ? postdoc g: you know . grad h: well i ca n't , i 'm wired in . professor b: we we we we do n't , uh phd a: yeah . you 're on recor you 're being recorded postdoc g: o grad f: yeah . phd a: and professor b: we do n't we do n't perform electro - shock during these meetings , grad f: i do n't care . you can do whatever you want with it . professor b: and phd e: usually . grad f: that 's fine . professor b: yeah . ok . uh , transcriptions . postdoc g: transcriptions , ok . um , i thought about there are maybe three aspects of this . so first of all , um , i 've got eight transcribers . uh , seven of them are linguists . one of them is a graduate student in psychology . um , each i gave each of them , uh , their own data set . two of them have already finished the data sets . and the meetings run , you know , let 's say an hour . sometimes as man much as an hour and a half . phd e: how big is the data set ? postdoc g: oh , it 's what i mean is one meeting . phd e: ah , ok . postdoc g: each each person got their own meeting . i did n't want to have any conflicts of , you know , of of when to stop transcribing this one or so i wanted to keep it clear whose data were whose , and and and so phd e: uh - huh . postdoc g: and , uh , meetings , you know , i think that they 're they go as long as a almost two hours in some in some cases . so , you know , that means you know , if we 've got two already finished and they 're working on uh , right now all eight of them have differe uh , uh , additional data sets . that means potentially as many as ten might be finished by the end of the month . phd e: wow . postdoc g: hope so . but the pre - segmentation really helps a huge amount . phd c: ok . postdoc g: and , uh , also dan ellis 's innovation of the , uh the multi - channel to here really helped a r a lot in terms of clearing clearing up h hearings that involve overlaps . but , um , just out of curiosity i asked one of them how long it was taking her , one of these two who has already finished her data set . she said it takes about , uh , sixty minutes transcription for every five minutes of real time . so it 's about twelve to one , which is what we were thinking . grad h: or yep . postdoc g: it 's well in the range . grad h: it 's pretty good . postdoc g: ok . uh , these still , when they 're finished , um , that means that they 're finished with their pass through . they still need to be edited and all but but it 's word level , speaker change , the things that were mentioned . ok , now i wanted to mention the , um , teleconference i had with , uh , jonathan fiscus . we spoke for an hour and a half and , um , had an awful lot of things in common . grad h: hmm . postdoc g: he , um , um , he in indicated to me that they 've that he 's been , uh , looking , uh , uh , spending a lot of time with i 'm not quite sure the connection , but spending a lot of time with the atlas system . and i guess that i mean , i i need to read up on that . and there 's a web site that has lots of papers . but it looks to me like that 's the name that has developed for the system that bird and liberman developed { comment } for the annotated graphs approach . grad h: mm - hmm . postdoc g: so what he wants me to do and what we what we will do and uh , is to provide them with the u already transcribed meeting for him to be able to experiment with in this atlas system . and they do have some sort of software , at least that 's my impression , related to atlas and that he wants to experiment with taking our data and putting them in that format , and see how that works out . i i i explained to him in in detail the , uh , conventions that we 're using here in this in this word level transcript . and , um , you know , i i explained , you know , the reasons that that we were not coding more elaborately and and the focus on reliability . he expressed a lot of interest in reliability . it 's like he 's he 's really up on these things . he 's he 's very um , independently he asked , `` well what about reliability ? `` so , he 's interested in the consistency of the encoding and that sort of thing . ok , um phd a: sorry , can you explain what the atlas i 'm not familiar with this atlas system . postdoc g: well , you know , at this point i think uh , well adam 's read more in more detail than i have on this . i need to acquaint myself more with it . but , um , there there is a way of viewing uh , whenever you have coding categories , um , and you 're dealing with uh , a taxonomy , then you can have branches that that have alternative , uh , choices that you could use for each each of them . and it just ends up looking like a graphical representation . grad h: is is is atlas the his annotated transcription graph stuff ? i do n't remember the acronym . the the one the what i think you 're referring to , they they have this concept of an an annotated transcription graph representation . phd a: oh . oh . postdoc g: yeah . grad h: and that 's basically what i based the format that i did i based it on their work almost directly , in combination with the tei stuff . and so it 's very , very similar . and so it 's it 's a data representation and a set of tools for manipulating transcription graphs of various types . phd e: is this the project that 's sort of , uh , between , uh , nist and and , uh , a couple of other places ? postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd e: the the postdoc g: including ldc . phd e: yeah , postdoc g: i think so . grad h: yep . phd e: y right , ok . postdoc g: mm - hmm . then there 's their web site that has lots of papers . and i looked through them and they mainly had to do with this , um , this , uh , tree structure , uh , annotated tree diagram thing . phd a: mmm . postdoc g: so , um , um and , you know , in terms of like the conventions that i 'm a that i 've adopted , it there there 's no conflict at all . grad h: right . postdoc g: and he was , you know , very interested . and , `` oh , and how 'd you handle this ? `` and i said , `` well , you know , this way `` and and and we had a really nice conversation . um , ok , now i also wanted to say in a different a different direction is , brian kingsbury . so , um , i corresponded briefly with him . i , uh , c i he still has an account here . i told him he could ssh on and use multi - trans , and have a look at the already done , uh , transcription . and he and he did . and what he said was that , um , what they 'll be providing is will not be as fine grained in terms of the time information . and , um , that 's , uh you know , i need to get back to him and and , uh , you know , explore that a little bit more and see what they 'll be giving us in specific , phd a: hmm . phd e: the p the people postdoc g: but i just have n't had time yet . phd e: the the folks that they 're , uh , subcontracting out the transcription to , are they like court reporters postdoc g: sorry , what ? yes . phd e: or postdoc g: apparently well , i get the sense they 're kind of like that . like it 's like a pool of of somewhat uh , secretarial i do n't think that they 're court reporters . i do n't think they have the special keyboards and that and that type of training . phd e: mm - hmm . postdoc g: i i get the sense they 're more secretarial . and that , um , uh , what they 're doing is giving them phd e: hmm . like medical transcriptionist type people grad h: nu - it 's mostly it 's for their speech recognition products , phd e: but are n't they 're postdoc g: yep . grad h: that they 've hired these people to do . phd e: oh , so they 're hiring them , they 're coming . it 's not a service they send the tapes out to . grad h: well they they do send it out but my understanding is that that 's all this company does is transcriptions for ibm for their speech product . phd e: ah ! oh . ok . i gotcha . grad h: so most of it 's viavoice , people reading their training material for that . phd e: i see . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd e: i see . postdoc g: up to now it 's been monologues , uh , as far my understood . grad h: yep , exactly . postdoc g: and and what they 're doing is phd e: mm - hmm . grad h: yep . postdoc g: brian himself downloaded so so , um , adam sent them a cd and brian himself downloaded uh , cuz , you know , i mean , we wanted to have it so that they were in familiar f terms with what they wanted to do . he downloaded from the cd onto audio tapes . and apparently he did it one channel per audio tape . so each of these people is transcribing from one channel . grad h: right . phd e: oh . postdoc g: and then what he 's going to do is check it , a before they go be beyond the first one . check it and , you know , adjust it , and all that . phd e: so each person gets one of these channels grad h: right . professor b: so if they hear something off in the distance they do n't they just go phd e: ok . postdoc g: i i do n't know . grad h: well , but that 's ok , because , you know , you 'll do all them and then combine them . phd e: but there could be problems , right ? with that . postdoc g: i have t i , you know i phd c: yep . postdoc g: i think it would be difficult to do it that way . i really phd a: yeah . phd e: well if you 're tran if you got that channel right there postdoc g: d uh , in my case phd c: yeah . grad h: no , no . we 're talking about close talking , not the not the desktop . phd d: no , close talk . professor b: are you ? postdoc g: yes . well i th i think so . grad h: i sure hope so . it 'd be really foolish to do otherwise . postdoc g: yeah , i i would think that it would be kind of hard to come out with yeah . phd a: i i think it 's sort of hard just playing the you know , just having played the individual files . and i i mean , i know you . i know what your voice sounds like . i 'm sort of familiar with phd c: yeah . phd a: uh , it 's pretty hard to follow , especially grad h: one side . phd a: there are a lot of words that are so reduced phonetically that make sense when you know what the person was saying before . postdoc g: i agree . phd c: yeah . phd e: yeah , that 's phd a: uh , it sort of depends where you are in postdoc g: and especially since a lot of these phd d: yeah . grad h: but i mean we had this we 've had this discussion many times . postdoc g: yeah , we have . grad h: and the answer is we do n't actually know the answer because we have n't tried both ways . postdoc g: well , except i can say that my transcribers use the mixed signal mostly grad h: so . mm - hmm . phd a: mm - hmm . phd e: right . postdoc g: unless there 's a huge disparity in terms of the volume on on the mix . in which case , you know , they they would n't be able to catch anything except the prominent { comment } channel , grad h: right . phd c: yeah . postdoc g: then they 'll switch between . grad h: well i think that that might change if you wanted really fine time markings . postdoc g: but but really well , ok . grad h: so . professor b: but they 're not giving f really fine time markings . postdoc g: yeah , well phd a: actually , are th so are they giving any time markings ? grad h: right . phd a: in other words , if postdoc g: well , i have to ask him . phd a: yeah . postdoc g: and that 's that 's my email to him . that needs to be forthcoming . phd a: cuz ok . postdoc g: but but the , uh i did want to say that it 's hard to follow one channel of a conversation even if you know the people , and if you 're dealing furthermore with highly abstract network concepts you 've never heard of so , you know , one of these people was was transcribing the , uh , networks group talk and she said , `` i do n't really know what a lot of these abbreviations are , `` `` but i just put them in parentheses cuz that 's the that 's the convention and i just `` cuz you know , if you do n't know grad h: oh , i 'd be curious to to look at that . phd e: just out of curiosity , i mean grad h: they also all have h heavy accents . phd c: yeah . phd d: yeah . postdoc g: yeah . grad h: the networks group meetings are all phd e: given all of the effort that is going on here in transcribing why do we have i b m doing it ? why not just do it all ourselves ? professor b: um , it 's historical . i mean , uh , some point ago we thought that uh , it `` boy , we 'd really have to ramp up to do that `` , phd c: uh - huh . phd d: no , just professor b: you know , like we just did , and , um , here 's , uh , a a , uh , collaborating institution that 's volunteered to do it . phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: so , that was a contribution they could make . uh in terms of time , money , you know ? phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: and it still might be a good thing phd e: i 'm just wondering now phd a: actu yeah , mar - mari asked me the same question as sort of professor b: but phd e: well , i 'm i 'm wondering now if it 's grad h: well we can talk about more details later . phd a: um , you know , yeah , whether to professor b: yeah . yeah . yeah , so . phd e: hmm . professor b: we 'll see . i mean , i think , th you know , they they they 've proceeded along a bit . let 's see what comes out of it , and and , uh , you know , have some more discussions with them . postdoc g: mm - hmm . it 's very a real benefit having brian involved because of his knowledge of what the how the data need to be used and so what 's useful to have in the format . grad h: yeah . professor b: mm - hmm . yeah . grad h: so , um , liz , with with the sri recognizer , { comment } can it make use of some time marks ? phd a: ok , so this is a , um , grad h: i i guess i do n't know what that means . phd a: and actually i should say this is what don has b uh , he 's already been really helpful in , uh , chopping up these so so first of all you um , i mean , for the sri front - end , we really need to chop things up into pieces that are f not too huge . um , but second of all , uh in general because some of these channels , i 'd say , like , i do n't know , at least half of them probably { comment } on average are g are ha are have a lot of cross - ta sorry , some of the segments have a lot of cross - talk . um , it 's good to get sort of short segments if you 're gon na do recognition , especially forced alignment . so , uh , don has been taking a first stab actually using jane 's first the fir the meeting that jane transcribed which we did have some problems with , and thilo , uh , i think told me why this was , but that people were switching microphones around { comment } in the very beginning , so the sri re phd c: no , th yeah . no . they they were not switching them but what they were they were adjusting them , phd a: and they they were not phd c: so . grad f: mmm . grad h: adjusting . oh . phd a: yeah . phd c: and aft after a minute or so it 's it 's way better . phd a: so we have to sort of normalize { comment } the front - end and so forth , and have these small segments . phd c: so yep . phd a: so we 've taken that and chopped it into pieces based always on your your , um , cuts that you made on the mixed signal . and so that every every speaker has the same cuts . and if they have speech in it we run it through . and if they do n't have speech in it we do n't run it through . and we base that knowledge on the transcription . grad h: on just on the marks . right ? phd a: um , the problem is if we have no time marks , then for forced alignment we actually do n't know where you know , in the signal the transcriber heard that word . and so grad h: oh , i see , phd a: i mean , if if it 's a whole conversation and we get a long , uh , you know , par paragraph of of talk , grad h: it 's for the length . i see . phd a: uh , i do n't know how they do this . um , we actually do n't know which piece goes where . grad h: i understand . phd a: and , um , i think with phd e: well you would need to like a forced alignment before you did the chopping , right ? phd a: no , we used the fact that so when jane transcribes them the way she has transcribers doing this , whether it 's with the pre - segmentation or not , grad h: it 's already chunked . phd a: they have a chunk and then they transcribes { comment } the words in the chunk . and maybe they choose the chunk or now they use a pre - segmentation and then correct it if necessary . but there 's first a chunk and then a transcription . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: then a chunk , then a transcription . that 's great , cuz the recognizer can grad h: uh , it 's all pretty good sized for the recognizer also . phd a: right , and it it helps that it 's made based on sort of heuristics and human ear i think . postdoc g: good . oh good . phd a: th - but there 's going to be a real problem , uh , even if we chop up based on speech silence these , uh , the transcripts from i b m , we do n't actually know where the words were , which segment they belonged to . grad h: right . phd a: so that 's sort of what i 'm worried about right now . phd e: why not do a a a forced alignment ? grad h: that 's what she 's saying , is that you ca n't . phd a: if you do a forced alignment on something really grad h: got uh six sixty minutes of phd a: well even if you do it on something really long you need to know you can always chop it up but you need to have a reference of which words went with which , uh , chop . postdoc g: now was n't i thought that one of the proposals was that ibm was going to do an initial forced alignment , phd a: so postdoc g: after they grad h: yeah , but professor b: i i think that they are , grad h: we 'll have to talk to brian . professor b: um , yeah , i 'm sure they will and so we we have to have a dialogue with them about it . phd a: yeah . professor b: i mean , it sounds like liz has some concerns phd a: maybe they have some you know , maybe actually there is some , even if they 're not fine grained , maybe the transcribers professor b: and phd a: uh , i do n't know , maybe it 's saved out in pieces or or something . that would help . postdoc g: yeah . phd a: but , uh , it 's just an unknown right now . postdoc g: yeah . i i need to to write to him . phd a: so . postdoc g: i just you know , it 's like i got over - taxed with the timing . phd a: right . but the it is true that the segments i have n't tried the segments that thilo gave you but the segments that in your first meeting are great . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: i mean , that 's that 's a good length . postdoc g: a good size . good . phd a: right , cuz postdoc g: well , i i was thinking it would be fun to to uh , uh , if if you would n't mind , { comment } to give us a pre - segmentation . phd a: y yeah . phd c: yeah . postdoc g: uh , maybe you have one already of that first m of the meeting that uh , the first transcribed meeting , the one that i transcribed . phd c: um , i 'm sure i have some postdoc g: do you have a could you generate a pre - segmentation ? grad h: february sixteenth i think . phd c: but but that 's the one where we 're , um , trai training on , so that 's a little bit grad h: oh . postdoc g: oh , i see . phd c: it 's a little bit at odd to postdoc g: oh , darn . of course , of course , of course . yeah , ok . phd c: yeah . phd a: and actually as you get transcripts just , um , for new meetings , { comment } um , we can try postdoc g: uh - huh . phd a: i mean , the the more data we have to try the the alignments on , um , the better . so it 'd be good for just to know as transcriptions are coming through the pipeline from the transcribers , just to sort of we 're playing around with sort of uh , parameters f on the recognizer , postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: cuz that would be helpful . especially as you get , en more voices . postdoc g: excellent , good . phd a: the first meeting had i think just four people , phd c: four speakers , yeah . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: yeah . postdoc g: yeah , liz and i spoke d w at some length on tuesday and and i and i was planning to do just a a preliminary look over of the two that are finished and then give them to you . phd a: oh , great , great . postdoc g: yeah . phd a: so . professor b: that 's great . i guess the other thing , i i ca n't remember if we discussed this in the meeting but , uh , i know you and i talked about this a little bit , there was an issue of , uh , suppose we get in the , uh , i guess it 's enviable position although maybe it 's just saying where the weak link is in the chain , uh , where we we , uh uh , we have all the data transcribed and we have these transcribers and we were we 're the we 're still a bit slow on feeding at that point we 've caught up and the the the , uh , the weak link is is recording meetings . ok , um , two questions come , is you know what how how do we uh , it 's not really a problem at the moment cuz we have n't reached that point but how do we step out the recorded meetings ? and the other one is , um , uh , is there some good use that we can make of the transcribers to do other things ? so , um , i i ca n't remember how much we talked about this in this meeting but there was grad h: we had spoken with them about it . postdoc g: and there is one use that that also we discussed which was when , uh , dave finishes the and maybe it 's already finished the the modification to multi - trans which will allow fine grained encoding of overlaps . uh , then it would be very these people would be very good to shift over to finer grain encoding of overlaps . it 's just a matter of , you know , providing so if right now you have two overlapping segments in the same time bin , well with with the improvement in the database in in the , uh , sorry , in the interface , it 'd be possible to , um , you know , just do a click and drag thing , and get the uh , the specific place of each of those , the time tag associated with the beginning and end of of each segment . professor b: right , so i think we talking about three level three things . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: one one was uh , we had s had some discussion in the past about some very high level labelings , postdoc g: yeah . the types of overlaps professor b: types of overlaps , and so forth that that someone could do . second was , uh , somewhat lower level postdoc g: mm - hmm . professor b: just doing these more precise timings . and the third one is is , uh , just a completely wild hair brained idea that i have which is that , um , if , uh if we have time and people are able to do it , to take some subset of the data and do some very fine grained analysis of the speech . for instance , uh , marking in some overlapping potentially overlapping fashion , uh , the value of , uh , ar articulatory features . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: you know , just sort of say , ok , it 's voiced from here to here , there 's it 's nasal from here to here , and so forth . um , as opposed to doing phonetic uh , you know , phonemic and the phonetic analysis , grad h: professor b: and , uh , assuming , uh , articulatory feature values for those those things . um , obviously that 's extremely time - consuming . uh phd e: that would be really valuable i think . professor b: but , uh , we could do it on some small subset . postdoc g: also if you 're dealing with consonants that would be easier than vowels , would n't it ? i mean , i would think that that , uh , being able to code that there 's a a fricative extending from here to here would be a lot easier than classifying precisely which vowel that was . grad h: which one . phd a: mmm . professor b: mm - hmm . postdoc g: i think vowels vowels are i think harder . professor b: well , yeah , phd c: yeah . professor b: but i think also it 's just the issue that that when you look at the u w u u when you look at switchboard for instance very close up there are places where whether it 's a consonant or a vowel you still have trouble calling it a particular phone postdoc g: mm - hmm . professor b: at that point postdoc g: mm - hmm , ok . grad h: yeah , but but just saying what the professor b: because it 's you know , there 's this movement from here to here postdoc g: yeah , i 'm sure . uh , yeah , i i know . phd a: right . professor b: and and and it 's so i phd e: you 're saying r sort of remove the high level constraints and go bottom - up . professor b: yeah , describe describe it . phd e: then just say grad h: yep , just features . phd a: mmm . professor b: now i 'm suggesting articulatory features . maybe there 's there 's even a better way to do it but it but but that 's , you know , sort of a traditional way of describing these things , phd e: mm - hmm . professor b: um , and uh , i mean , actually this might be a g neat thing to talk to postdoc g: that 's nice . phd e: acoustic features versus psychological categories . professor b: sort of . i mean , it 's still phd e: yeah . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: some sort of categories but but something that allows for overlapping change of these things and then this would give some more ground work for people who were building statistical models that allowed for overlapping changes , different timing changes as opposed to just `` click , you 're now in this state , which corresponds to this speech sound `` and so on . phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: so this is like gestural uh , these g professor b: yeah , something like that . phd a: right . ok . professor b: i mean , actually if we get into that it might be good to , uh , uh , haul john ohala into this phd a: right . professor b: and ask his his views on it i think . grad h: yeah . phd a: but is is the goal there to have this on meeting data , postdoc g: excellent . phd a: like so that you can do far field studies { comment } of those gestures or um , or is it because you think there 's a different kind of actual production in meetings { comment } that people use ? or ? professor b: no , i think i think it 's for for for that purpose i 'm just viewing meetings as being a a neat way to get people talking naturally . and then you have i and then and then it 's natural in all senses , phd e: just a source of data ? phd a: i see . professor b: in the sense that you have microphones that are at a distance that you know , one might have , and you have the close mikes , and you have people talking naturally . and the overlap is just indicative of the fact that people are talking naturally , phd a: uh - huh . phd d: yeah . phd a: right . professor b: right ? so so i think that given that it 's that kind of corpus , phd d: yeah . professor b: if it 's gon na be a very useful corpus um , if you say w ok , we 've limited the use by some of our , uh , uh , censored choices , we do n't have the video , we do n't and so forth , but there 's a lot of use that we could make of it by expanding the annotation choices . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: and , uh , most of the things we 've talked about have been fairly high level , and being kind of a bottom - up person i thought maybe we 'd , do some of the others . grad h: hmm . phd a: right . yeah , that would be good . postdoc g: it 's a nice balance . professor b: yeah . postdoc g: that would be really nice to offer those things with that wide range . phd a: right . professor b: yeah and hopefully someone would make use of it . postdoc g: really nice . professor b: i mean , people did n't postdoc g: yeah . professor b: uh , i mean , people have made a lot of use of of timit and , uh w due to its markings , and then the switchboard transcription thing , well i think has been very useful for a lot of people . grad h: right . phd a: that 's true . professor b: so phd a: i guess i wanted to , um , sort of make a pitch for trying to collect more meetings . postdoc g: cool . phd a: um , professor b: yeah . phd a: i actually i talked to chuck fillmore and i think they 've what , vehemently said no before but this time he was n't vehement and he said you know , `` well , liz , come to the meeting tomorrow professor b: yeah . phd a: and try to convince people `` . so i 'm gon na try . go to their meeting tomorrow and see if we can try , uh , to convince them postdoc g: mm - hmm . good . professor b: cuz they have something like three or four different meetings , phd a: because they have and they have very interesting meetings from the point of view of a very different type of of talk than we have here professor b: right ? postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd d: talk phd a: and definitely than the front end meeting , probably . um phd e: you mean in terms of the topic topics ? phd a: well , yes and in terms of the the fact that they 're describing abstract things and , uh , just dialogue - wise , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: right . phd e: mm - hmm . phd a: um , so i 'll try . and then the other thing is , i do n't know if this is at all useful , but i asked lila if i can maybe go around and talk to the different departments in this building to see if there 's any groups that , for a free lunch , professor b: yes . phd a: if we can still offer that , might be willing professor b: great . grad h: you mean non - icsi ? phd a: non - icsi , non - academic , grad h: yeah , i guess you you can try phd a: you know , like government people , grad h: but phd a: i do n't know . grad h: the problem is so much of their stuff is confidential . phd a: so . phd d: yeah . postdoc g: yeah . grad h: it would be very hard for them . phd a: is is it in these departments ? phd d: yeah . postdoc g: also it does seem like it takes us way out of the demographic . i mean , it seems like we we had this idea before of having like linguistics students brought down for free lunches grad h: well , tha i think that 's her point . postdoc g: and that 's a nice idea . phd a: right , and then we could also we might try advertising again because i think it 'd be good if if we can get a few different sort of non - internal types of meetings postdoc g: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd a: and just also more data . so . phd e: does does john ohala have weekly phonetics lab meetings ? postdoc g: mm - hmm . grad h: and i think , uh , if we could get phd a: so i actually wrote to him and he answered , `` great , that sounds really interesting `` . but i never heard back because we did n't actually advertise openly . we a i mean w i told i d asked him privately . um , and it is a little bit of a trek for campus folks . postdoc g: mm - hmm . grad h: yeah . you might give them a free lunch . phd a: um , so it 's still worthwhile . grad h: but , um , it would be nice if we got someone other than me who knew how to set it up and could do the recording phd a: so grad h: so u i did n't have to do it each time . phd a: exactly , and and postdoc g: yeah . that 's right . phd a: and i was thinking professor b: he - he 's supposed he 's supposed to be trained to do it . phd a: yeah . plus we could also get you know , a s a student . grad h: ok , next week you 're going to do it all . phd d: yeah . phd a: and i 'm willing to try to learn . i mean , i 'm i would do my best . um , the other thing is that there was a number of things at the transcription side that , um , transcribers can do , like dialogue act tagging , grad h: it 's not that hard . phd a: disfluency tagging , um , things that are in the speech that are actually something we 're y { comment } working on for language modeling . and mari 's also interested in it , andreas as well . so if you wan na process a utterance and the first thing they say is , `` well `` , and that `` well `` is coded as some kind of interrupt u tag . uh , and things like that , um , th postdoc g: of course some of that can be li done lexically . phd a: a lot of it can be done postdoc g: and i also they are doing disfluency tagging to some degree already . phd a: great . so a a lot of this kind of postdoc g: yeah . phd a: i think there 's a second pass and i do n't really know what would exist in it . but there 's definitely a second pass worth doing to maybe encode some kinds of , you know , is it a question or not , postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: or um , that maybe these transcribers could do . so yeah . postdoc g: they 'd be really good . they 're they 're very they 're very consistent . phd a: that 'd be great . professor b: mm - hmm . postdoc g: uh , i wanted to whi while we 're uh , so , to return just briefly to this question of more meeting data , um i have two questions . one of them is , um , jerry feldman 's group , they they , uh , are they i know that they recorded one meeting . are they willing ? professor b: i think they 're open to it . i think , you know , all these things are phd a: oh , yeah . professor b: i think there 's we should go beyond , uh , icsi but , i mean , there 's a lot of stuff happening at icsi that we 're not getting now that we could . phd a: oh , that we could . professor b: so it 's just postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: ok . i thought that all these people had sort of said `` no `` twice already . professor b: yeah . so the phd a: if that 's not the case then professor b: no , no . no . so th there was the thing in fillmore 's group but even there he had n't what he 'd said `` no `` to was for the main meeting . but they have several smaller meetings a week , grad h: so . professor b: and , uh , the notion was raised before that that could happen . and it just , you know it just did n't come together phd a: just ok . phd e: well , and and the other thing too is when they originally said `` no `` they did n't know about this post - editing capability thing . professor b: but phd a: right . postdoc g: oh . professor b: yeah . yeah . phd a: right . that was a big fear . phd e: so . postdoc g: that 's important . professor b: yeah , so i mean there 's possibilities there . i think jerry 's group , yes . phd a: ok . professor b: uh , there 's there 's , uh , the networks group , uh , i do n't do they still meeting regularly or ? grad h: well , i do n't know if they meet regularly or not but they are no longer recording . professor b: but i mean , ha ha have they said they do n't want to anymore or ? grad h: um , ugh , what was his name ? professor b: uh , i i postdoc g: joe sokol ? grad h: yeah . professor b: yeah . grad h: when with him gone , it sorta trickled off . professor b: ok , so they 're down to three or four people grad h: they and they stopped yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: but the thing is three or four people is ok . grad h: yep . postdoc g: we might be able to get the administration grad h: well he was sort of my contact , so i just need to find out who 's running it now . professor b: ok . grad h: so . postdoc g: i see that lila has a luncheon meeting in here periodically . phd a: yeah , i mean , it one thing that would be nice postdoc g: i do n't know phd a: and this it sounds bizarre but , i 'd really like to look at to get some meetings where there 's a little bit of heated discussion , like ar arguments and or emotion , and things like that . and so i was thinking if there 's any like berkeley political groups or something . i mean , that 'd be perfect . some group , `` yes , we must `` grad h: who 's willing to get recorded and distributed ? phd a: well , you know , something phd c: yeah . grad f: yeah , i do n't think the more political argumentative ones would be willing to phd a: um professor b: yeah , with with with potential use from the defense department . phd d: yeah . phd a: well , ok . professor b: yeah . phd a: no , but maybe stu student , uh , groups or , um , film - makers , or som something a little bit colorful . phd c: yeah . grad f: yeah . exactly . postdoc g: yeah . grad h: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor b: yeah . yeah , th there 's a problem there in terms of , uh , the um commercial value of of st uh , postdoc g: yeah , of course there is this problem though , that if we give them the chance to excise later we e might end up with like five minutes out of a f { comment } of m one hour phd d: film - maker . grad h: of beeps , phd c: yeah . yeah . grad h: yeah . phd a: and i do n't mean that they 're angry phd d: is postdoc g: of { comment } yes . really . phd a: but just something with some more variation in prosodic contours and so forth would be neat . so if anyone has ideas , i 'm willing to do the leg work to go try to talk to people but i do n't really know which groups are worth pursuing . postdoc g: well there was this k p f a grad h: no that 's postdoc g: but ok . grad h: legal . postdoc g: ok , ok . professor b: it it it it turned out to be a bit of a problem . phd a: or postdoc g: and i had one other one other aspect of this which is , um , uh , uh , jonathan fiscus expressed primar uh y a major interest in having meetings which were all english speakers . now he was n't trying to shape us in terms of what we gather professor b: mm - hmm . postdoc g: but that 's what he wanted me to show him . so i 'm giving him our , um our initial meeting because he asked for all english . and i think we do n't have a lot of all english meetings right now . professor b: of all all nat all native speakers . phd e: did he mean , uh did he mean and non - british ? grad h: well phd c: the all native . postdoc g: that 's what i mean , yeah . grad h: well if he meant and non - british i think we have zero . postdoc g: he does n't care . no . eh , well , british is ok . phd e: he said british was ok ? postdoc g: but but sure , sure , sure . professor b: why ? grad h: british is english ? phd c: postdoc g: yeah . different varieties of english . phd c: ooo , ooo . professor b: well , i do n't i do n't i do n't think if he did n't say that postdoc g: native speaking . native speaking english . grad h: i bet he meant native speaking american . postdoc g: yes . professor b: i bet he did . phd c: american english ? postdoc g: oh , really . grad h: so , why would he care ? phd e: knowing the application phd a: that 's professor b: i remember wh i i remember a study phd a: i was thinking , knowing the , uh , n national institute of standards , it is all professor b: i remember a study that bbn did where they trained on this was in wall street journal days or something , they trained on american english and then they tested on , uh , different native speakers from different areas . and , uh , uh , the worst match was people whose native tongue was mandarin chinese . the second worst was british english . postdoc g: that 's funny . professor b: so h it 's , you know , t postdoc g: alright . and so that would make sense . professor b: the the the german was much better , phd c: ooo , ooo . postdoc g: i did n't have the context of that . professor b: it was swiss w yeah , so it 's so i think , you know , if he 's if he 's thinking in terms of recognition kind of technology i i i think he would probably want , uh american english , postdoc g: all america , ok . grad h: i wonder if we have any . professor b: yeah . it it yeah , unless we 're gon na train with a whole bunch of postdoc g: i think that the feldman 's meetings tend to be more that way , are n't they ? i mean , i sort of feel like they have professor b: i think so , grad h: maybe . phd a: yeah , professor b: yeah . grad h: maybe . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . phd d: mmm . grad h: and maybe there are a few of with us where it was professor b: yeah . grad h: you know , dan was n't there and before jose started coming , professor b: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad h: and professor b: it 's pretty tough , uh , this group . yeah . grad h: yeah . phd c: mmm . professor b: so , uh , what about what about people who involved in some artistic endeavor ? phd d: yeah . professor b: i mean , film - making or something like that . phd a: exactly , that 's what i was professor b: you 'd think like they would be phd d: a film - maker . phd a: something where there there is actually discussion where there 's no right or wrong answer but but it 's a matter of opinion kind of thing . uh , anyway , if you if you have ideas postdoc g: it 's be fun . grad h: rasta . plp . rasta . plp . phd d: yes . grad f: we can just discu we can just have a political discussion one day . phd a: yeah , we could phd e: a any department that calls itself science phd d: department . grad f: uh , i could make that pretty phd d: yeah . grad h: well , like computer science . phd d: computer sci grad h: that postdoc g: we could get julia child . i know . phd a: i 'm i 'm actually serious grad h: that 's phd a: because , uh , you know , we have the set up here grad h: got a ticket . professor b: yeah , i know you are . phd a: and and that that has a chance to give us some very interesting fun data . so if anyone has ideas , phd d: yeah . phd a: if you know any groups that are m you know , professor b: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad h: well i had asked some some of the students at the business school . phd a: student groups c like clubs , things like that . grad f: i know grad h: i could phd a: not not professor b: put a little ad up saying , `` come here and argue `` . phd a: yeah . `` if you 're really angry at someone use our conference room . `` grad h: the business school . uh , the business school might be good . i actually spoke with some students up there phd a: oh , ok . grad h: and they they they expressed willingness back when they thought they would be doing more stuff with speech . phd a: really . grad h: but when they lost interest in speech they also stopped answering my email about other stuff , so . phd d: hmm . phd a: or people who are really h professor b: they could have a discussion about te grad f: i grad h: we should probably bleep that out . professor b: about about tax cuts or something . grad f: i heard that at cal tech they have a special room someone said that they had a special room to get all your frustrations out that you can go to and like throw things and break things . professor b: yeah , now that is not actually what we grad f: so we can like post a grad h: th - that 's not what we want . grad f: no , not to that extent phd a: well , far field mikes can pick up where they threw stuff on the wall . grad f: but , um . yeah . professor b: yeah , but we do n't want them to throw the far field mikes is the thing . phd a: oh . yeah , right . grad h: that 's right . phd d: the fa grad f: yeah . phd d: grad h: `` please throw everything in that direction . `` professor b: yeah . anyway . grad h: padded cell . postdoc g: it 'd be fun to get like a a p visit from the grad h: there was a dorm room at tech that , uh , someone had coated the walls and the ceiling , and , uh , the floor with mattresses . grad f: mmm . grad h: the entire room . professor b: i had as my fourth thing here processing of wave forms . postdoc g: yeah . professor b: what did we mean by that ? remember @ @ ? grad h: uh , liz wanted to talk about methods of improving accuracy by doing pre - processing . postdoc g: pre - processing . phd a: well i think that that was just sort of i i already asked thilo professor b: oh , you already did that . phd a: but that , um , it would be helpful if i can stay in the loop somehow with , um , people who are doing any kind of post - processing , whether it 's to separate speakers or to improve the signal - to - noise ratio , or both , um , that we can sort of try out as we 're running recognition . um , so , i is that who else is work i guess dan ellis and you phd c: dan , yeah . professor b: yeah , and dave uh gel - gelbart again , grad h: yep . phd a: and dave . phd c: yep . phd a: ok . phd d: yeah . professor b: he 's he 's interested in in fact we 're look starting to look at some echo cancellation kind of things . phd a: ok . professor b: which uh grad h: i am not sure how much that 's an issue with the close talking mikes , professor b: hmm ? grad h: but who knows ? professor b: well , let 's w i is n't that what what you want phd a: i do n't know . i 'm bad professor b: t no , so no , i w wha what you what you want when you 're saying improving the wave form you want the close talking microphone to be better . phd a: it 's like { comment } like professor b: right ? grad h: right . professor b: and the question is to w to what extent is it getting hurt by , uh by any room acoustics or is it just uh , given that it 's close it 's not a problem ? phd a: it does n't seem like big room acoustics problems to my ear professor b: uh phd a: but i 'm not an expert . it seems like a problem with cross - talk . professor b: ok , so it 's phd c: yeah . grad h: e i bet with the lapel mike there 's plenty , uh , room acoustic phd a: that that may be true . grad h: but i i think the rest is cross - talk . phd a: but i do n't know how good it can get either by those the those methods grad h: yeah . phd a: that 's true . professor b: ok . grad h: so i i think it 's just , phd a: oh , i do n't know . grad h: yeah , what you said , cross - talk . phd a: all i meant is just that as sort of as this pipeline of research is going on we 're also experimenting with different asr , uh , techniques . grad h: mm - hmm . phd a: and so it 'd be w good to know about it . phd e: so the problem is like , uh , on the microphone of somebody who 's not talking they 're picking up signals from other people { comment } and that 's causing problems ? phd a: r right , although if they 're not talking , using the the inhouse transcriptions , were sort of o k because the t no one transcribed any words there and we throw it out . phd e: mm - hmm . phd a: but if they 're talking at all and they 're not talking the whole time , so you get some speech and then a `` mm - hmm `` , and some more speech , so that whole thing is one chunk . and the person in the middle who said only a little bit is picking up the speech around it , that 's where it 's a big problem . postdoc g: you know , this does like seem like it would relate to some of what jose 's been working on as well , the encoding of the phd d: yeah . postdoc g: and and he also , he was phd a: the energy , phd d: yeah , phd a: right . exactly . phd d: energy . postdoc g: i was t i was trying to remember , you have this interface where you i you ha you showed us one time on your laptop that you you had different visual displays as speech and nonspeech events . phd d: yeah , c yeah . may i i only display the different colors for the different situation . but , eh , for me and for my problems , is uh is enough . because , eh , it 's possible , eh , eh , in a simp sample view , uh , to , nnn , to compare with c with the segment , the the kind of assessment what happened with the the different parameters . and only with a different bands of color for the , uh , few situation , eh , i consider for acoustic event is enough to @ @ . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd d: i i i see that , eh , you are considering now , eh , a very sophisticated , eh , ehm , eh , @ @ { comment } set of , eh , graphic s eh , eh , ehm , si symbols to to transcribe . no ? because , uh , before , you you are talking about the the possibility to include in the transcriber program eh , um , a set of symbols , of graphic symbol to t to mark the different situations during the transcription postdoc g: oh , i w uh - huh . phd d: during the transcription . no ? postdoc g: well , you 're saying so , uh , symbols for differences between laugh , and sigh , and and and slam the door and stuff ? phd d: yeah . yeah , yeah . the s the symbols , you you talk of before . postdoc g: or some other kind of thing ? phd d: no ? to to mark postdoc g: well , i would n't say symbols so much . the the main change that i that i see in the interface is is just that we 'll be able to more finely c uh , time things . phd d: yeah . yeah . postdoc g: but i i also st there was another aspect of your work that i was thinking about when i was talking to you phd a: hmm . postdoc g: which is that it sounded to me , liz , as though you and , uh , maybe i did n't q understand this , but it sounded to me as though part of the analysis that you 're doing involves taking segments which are of a particular type and putting them together . phd d: yeah . postdoc g: and th so if you have like a p a s you know , speech from one speaker , then you cut out the part that 's not that speaker , phd a: mm - hmm . postdoc g: and you combine segments from that same speaker to { comment } and run them through the recognizer . is that right ? phd a: well we try to find as close of start and end time of as we can to the speech from an individual speaker , postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: because then we we 're more guaranteed that the recognizer will for the forced alignment which is just to give us the time boundaries , because from those time boundaries then the plan is to compute prosodic features . postdoc g: mm - hmm . phd a: and the sort of more space you have that is n't the thing you 're trying to align the more errors we have . um , so , you know , that that it would help to have either pre - processing of a signal that creates very good signal - to - noise ratio , postdoc g: mm - hmm . cuz i ok . phd a: which i do n't know how possible this is for the lapel , um , or to have very to have closer , um , time you know , synch times , basically , around the speech that gets transcribed in it , or both . and it 's just sort of a open world right now of exploring that . so i just wanted to see , you know , on the transcribing end from here things look good . uh , the ibm one is more it 's an open question right now . and then the issue of like global processing of some signal and then , you know , before we chop it up is is yet another way we can improve things in that . phd e: what about increasing the flexibility of the alignment ? postdoc g: ok . phd e: do you remember that thing that michael finka did ? phd a: mm - hmm . phd e: that experiment he did a while back ? phd a: right . you can , um the problem is just that the acoustic when the signal - to - noise ratio is too low , um , you you 'll get , a uh an alignment with the wrong duration pattern or it phd e: oh , so that 's the problem , is the the signal - to - noise ratio . phd a: yeah . it 's not the fact that you have like i mean , what he did is allow you to have , uh , words that were in another segment move over to the at the edges of of segmentations . phd e: mm - hmm . or even words inserted that were n't were n't there . phd a: right , things things near the boundaries where if you got your alignment wrong phd e: mm - hmm . phd a: cuz what they had done there is align and then chop . phd e: mm - hmm . phd a: um , and this problem is a little bit j more global . it 's that there are problems even in inside the alignments , uh , because of the fact that there 's enough acoustic signal there t for the recognizer to to eat , as part of a word . and it tends to do that . s so , uh , phd d: yeah . phd a: but we probably will have to do something like that in addition . anyway . so , yeah , bottom bottom line is just i wanted to make sure i can be aware of whoever 's working on these signal - processing techniques for , uh , detecting energies , phd d: yeah . phd a: because that that 'll really help us . professor b: o k , uh tea has started out there i suggest we c run through our digits and , postdoc g: ok . professor b: uh , so , ok , we 're done .

the transcriber pool has been performing within the expected range of work completed per the amount of time spent transcribing .

summarize the meeting </s> phd e: yeah . professor b: um , so . if we ca n't , we ca n't . but uh we 're gon na try to make this an abbreviated meeting cuz the the next next occupants were pushing for it , so . um . so . agenda is according to this , is transcription status , darpa demos xml tools , disks , backups , et cetera and grad h: does anyone have anything to add to the agenda ? professor b: ok . should we just go in order ? transcription status ? who 's that 's probably you . postdoc a: i can do that quickly . um i hired several more transcribers , they 're making great progress . professor b: seven ? postdoc a: seve - several , several . professor b: oh . postdoc a: and uh and uh , uh i 've been uh finishing up the uh double checking . i hoped to have had that done by today but it 's gon na take one more week . grad h: um phd d: i g grad h: as a somewhat segue into the next topic , um could i get a hold of uh the data even if it 's not really corrected yet just so i can get the data formats and make sure the information retrieval stuff is working ? postdoc a: certainly . yeah i mean , it 's in the same place it 's been . grad h: so can you just oh , it is . postdoc a: uh - huh . no change . grad h: ok . just so , `` transcripts `` is the sub - directory ? postdoc a: uh yes . uh - huh . grad h: ok . so i 'll i 'll probably just make some copies of those rather than use the ones that are there . postdoc a: ok . grad h: um and then just we 'll have to remember to delete them once the corrections are made . postdoc a: ok . professor b: ok , wh phd d: i also got anot a short remark to the transcription . i 've uh just processed the first five edu meetings and they are chunked up so they would they probably can be sent to ibm whenever they want them . grad c: cool . phd f: well the second one of those phd d: yep . it 's already at ibm , phd f: is already at ibm . phd d: but the other ones phd f: that 's the one that we 're waiting to hear from them on . phd d: yeah . yeah . postdoc a: ok . phd f: yeah . postdoc a: these are separate from the ones that phd f: as soon as postdoc a: i mean , these are phd f: they 're the ibm set . phd d: yep . grad h: it 's this one . postdoc a: excellent . good . phd f: yeah . and so as soon as we hear from brian that this one is ok grad h: is my mike on ? yeah . phd f: and we get the transcript back and we find out that hopefully there are no problems matching up the transcript with what we gave them , then uh we 'll be ready to go and we 'll just send them the next four as a big batch , postdoc a: excellent . phd f: and let them work on that . grad h: and so we 're doing those as disjoint from the ones we 're transcribing here ? phd f: yes , exactly . grad h: ok , good . phd f: we 're sort of doing things in parallel , that way we can get as much done a at once . grad h: yeah , i think that 's the right way to do it , phd f: yeah . grad h: especially for the information retrieval stuff . anything else on transcription status ? postdoc a: hm - mmm . grad h: ok . professor b: darpa demos , we had the submeeting the other day . grad h: right , which uh so i 've been working on using the thisl tools to do information retrieval on meeting data and the thisl tools are there 're two sets , there 's a back - end and a front - end , so the front - end is the user interface and the back - end is the indexing tool and the querying tool . and so i 've written some tools to convert everything into the right for file formats . and the command line version of the indexing and the querying is now working . so at least on the one meeting that i had the transcript for uh conveniently you can now do information retrieval on it , do type in a a string and get back a list of start - end times for the meeting , phd f: what what kind of uh what does that look like ? the string that you type in . grad h: uh of hits . phd f: what are you are you are they keywords , or are they ? grad h: keywords . phd f: ok . i see . grad h: right ? and so and then it munges it to pass it to the thisl ir which uses an sgml - like format for everything . phd f: i see . professor b: and then does it play something back or that 's something you 're having to program ? grad h: um , right now , i have a tool that will do that on a command line using our standard tools , professor b: yeah . grad h: but my intention is to do a prettier user interface based either so so that 's the other thing i wanted to discuss , is well what should we do for the user interface ? we have two tools that have already been written . um the softsound guys did a web - based one , professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: um , which i have n't used , have n't looked at . dan says it 's pretty good professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: but it does mean you need to be running a web server . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: and so it it 's pretty big and complex . uh and it would be difficult to port to windows because it means porting the web server to windows . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: uh the other option is dan did the tcl - tk thisl gui front - end for broadcast news professor b: yeah . grad h: which i think looks great . i think that 's a nice demo . um and that would be much easier to port to windows . and so i think that 's the way we should go . postdoc a: i can i ask a question ? so um as it stands within the the channeltrans interface , it 's possible to do a find and a play . grad h: mm - hmm . postdoc a: you can find a searched string and play . so e are you so you 're adding like um , i do n't know , uh are they fuzzy matches or are they uh ? grad h: it 's a sort of standard , text - retrieval - based so it 's uh term frequency , inverse document frequency scoring . postdoc a: ok . grad h: um and then there are all sorts of metrics for spacing how far apart they have to be and things like that . so it it 's postdoc a: it 's a lot more sophisticated than the uh the basically windows - based grad h: i it 's like doing a google query or anyth anything else like that . postdoc a: ok . grad h: so i it uses so it pr produces an index ahead of time so you do n't you 're not doing a linear search through all the documents . cuz you can imagine if with if we have the sixty hours ' worth you do would n't wan na do a search . postdoc a: hm - mmm . good . grad h: um you have to do preindexing and so that these tools do all that . and so the work to get the front - end to work would be porting it well uh to get it to work on the unix systems , our side is just rewriting them and modifying them to work for meetings . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: so that it understands that they 're different speakers and that it 's one big audio file instead of a bunch of little ones and just sorta things like that . professor b: mm - hmm . phd g: mm - hmm . phd f: so what does the user see as the result of the query ? grad h: on which tool ? phd f: thisl . grad h: the thisl gui tool which is the one that dan wrote , tcl - tk phd f: yeah . grad h: um you type in a query and then you get back a list of hits and you can type on them and listen to them . click on them rather { comment } with a mouse . phd f: ah . professor b: mmm phd f: so if you typed in `` small heads `` or something you could grad h: right , you 'd get phd f: get back a uh uh { comment } something that would let you click and listen to some audio where that phrase had occurred grad h: something you you 'd get to listen to `` beep `` . phd f: or some professor b: that was a really good look . it 's too bad that that could n't come into the grad h: you could n't get a video . phd g: guess who i practice on ? postdoc a: at some point we 're gon na have to say what that private joke is , that keeps coming up . professor b: yeah . and then again , maybe not . so , uh yeah , that soun that sounds reasonable . yeah , it loo it my my recollection of it is it 's it 's a pretty reasonable uh demo sort of format . grad h: right . phd f: yeah that sounds good . grad h: and so i think there 'd be minimal effort to get it to work , minimally phd f: that sounds really neat . grad h: and then we 'd wan na add things like query by speaker and by meeting and all that sort of stuff . um dave gelbart expressed some interest in working on that so i 'll work with him on it . and it it 's looking pretty good , you know , the fact that i got the query system working . so if we wan na just do a video - based one i think that 'll be easy . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: if we wan na get it to windows it 's gon na be a little more work because the thisl ir , the information retrieval tool 's um , i had difficulty just compiling them on solaris . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: so getting them to compile on windows might be challenging . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: but you were saying that that the uh that there 's that set of tools , uh , cygnus tools , that grad h: so . it certainly helps . phd f: uh - huh . grad h: um , i mean without those i would n't even attempt it . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: yeah . grad h: but what those they what those do is provide sort of a bsd compatibility layer , professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: so that the normal unix function calls all work . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: and you have to have all the o grad h: um , but the problem is that that the thisl tools did n't use anything like autoconf and so you have the normal porting problems of different header files and th some things are defined and some things are n't and uh different compiler work - arounds and so on . so the fact that um it took me a day to get it c to compile under solaris means it 's probably gon na take me s significantly more than that to get it to compile under windows . professor b: how about having it run under free bsd ? phd e: well what you need grad h: free bsd would probably be easier . phd e: all you need to do is say to dan `` gee it would be nice if this worked under autoconf `` and it 'll be done in a day . grad h: that 's true . phd d: uh phd e: right ? grad h: actually you know i should check because he did port it to sprachcore phd e: right . grad h: so he might have done that already . phd e: i i i would n't be surprised . professor b: so grad h: i 'll check at that professor b: but it would what would serve would serve both purposes , is if you contact him and ask him if he 's already done it . phd e: what i phd f: how does it play ? grad h: yeah , right . professor b: if he has then you learn , if he has n't then he 'll do it . grad h: right . postdoc a: wow . phd f: i hope he never listens to these meetings . grad h: that 's right . so , and i 've been corresponding with dan and also with uh uh , softsound guy , uh postdoc a: it 's amazing . professor b: yeah . grad h: blanking on his name . professor b: tony robinson ? phd f: tony robinson ? grad h: do i mean tony ? i guess i do . professor b: yeah . phd e: james christie . grad h: or s or steve renals . professor b: steve renal - steve renals . grad h: which one do i mean ? phd e: steve renals is not softsound , is he ? professor b: no . grad h: my brain is not working , professor b: ok . grad h: i do n't remember who i 've been corresponding with . phd e: steve wro i it 's ste - steve renals wrote thisl ir . grad h: then it 's steve renals . professor b: oh , ok . phd e: ok . grad h: so uh just getting documentation and uh and f and formats , professor b: yeah . grad h: so that 's all going pretty well , professor b: assuming we 're phd e: right . phd f: what about issues of playing sound files @ @ between the two platforms ? grad h: i think we 'll be ok with that . um we have well , that 's a good point too . phd e: here 's a here 's a crazy idea actually . grad h: i do n't know . phd e: why do n't you try and merge transcriber and thisl ir ? they 're both tcl interfaces . grad h: well this is one of the reasons this is the one of the reasons that i 'm gon na have uh dave gelbart gelbart having him volunteer to work on it is a really good thing because he 's worked on the transcriber stuff phd e: right . grad h: and he 's more familiar with tcl - tk than i am . phd e: and then you get they then you get the windows media playing for free . grad h: well that 's snack , not not transcriber . phd e: right . but the point is that the transcriber uses snack and then you can but you can use a a lot of the same functionality and it 's grad h: yeah , yeah , i mean , i i think thisl thisl gui probably uses snack . and so my intention was just to base it on that . phd e: yeah . well my thought was is that it would be nice it would be nice to have the running transcripts um eh you know , from speaker to speaker . grad h: and if it does n't phd e: right ? do you have you have , you know , a speaker mark here and a speaker mark here ? grad h: right , we 'll have to figure out a user interface for that , so . phd e: right . well that eh my thought was if you had like multitrans or whatever do it . or whatever . grad h: yeah . it might be fairly difficult to get that to work in { comment } the little short segments we 'd be talking about and having the search tools and so on . we we can look into it , phd e: yeah . grad h: but professor b: the thing i was asking about with , um , free bsd is that it might be easier to get powerpoint shows running in free bsd than to get this other package running in grad h: yeah , i mean we have to i have to sit down and try it before i make too many judgments , professor b: yeah . grad h: so uh um my experience with the gnu compatibility library is really it 's just as hard and just as easy to port to any system . right ? the windows system is n't any harder because it it looks like a bsd system . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: it 's just , you know , just like all of them , the `` include `` files are a little different and the function calls are a little different . professor b: right . grad h: so i it might be a little easier but it 's not gon na be a lot easier . professor b: ok . so there was that demo , which was one of the main ones , then we talked about um some other stuff which would basically be um showing off the the transcriber interface itself and as you say , maybe we could even merge those in some sense , but but um , uh and part of that was showing off what the speech - non uh nonspeech { comment } stuff that thilo has done s looks like . phd d: yeah . postdoc a: can i ask one more thing about thisl ? so with the ir stuff then you end up with a somewhat prioritized um ? grad h: mm - hmm . mm - hmm , postdoc a: excellent . grad h: ranked . postdoc a: excellent . yeah . phd g: so another idea i w t had just now actually for the demo was whether it might be of interest to sh to show some of the prosody uh work that don 's been doing . professor b: mm - hmm . phd g: um actually show some of the features and then show for instance a task like finding sentence boundaries or finding turn boundaries . um , you know , you can show that graphically , sort of what the features are doing . it , you know , it does n't work great but it 's definitely giving us something . professor b: well i think at at the very least we 're gon na want something illustrative with that phd g: i do n't know if that would be of interest or not . professor b: cuz i 'm gon na want to talk about it and so i if there 's something that shows it graphically it 's much better than me just having a bullet point phd g: yeah . professor b: pointing at something i do n't know much about , phd g: i mean , you 're looking at this now professor b: so . phd g: are you looking at waves or matlab ? grad c: um yeah i 'm starting to and um yeah we can probably find some examples of different type of prosodic events going on . phd g: yeah def professor b: s so when we here were having this demo meeting , what we 're sort of coming up with is that we wan na have all these pieces together , to first order , by the end of the month phd g: i professor b: and then that 'll give us a week or so . grad c: ooo . the end of phd g: oh , the end of this month or next month ? oh , you mean like today ? grad h: this month . professor b: ju phd g: oh . professor b: june . june . june . phd g: next month . grad h: oh sorry , next month . grad c: yeah . phd g: sorry . grad h: today is n't june first , phd f: there 's another one . grad h: is it . professor b: uh that 'll that 'll give us that 'll give us a week or so to uh to port things over to my laptop and make sure that works , phd e: exactly . phd g: sorry . professor b: yeah . phd g: i think , i mean eh where grad c: yeah , i mean i 'll be here . phd g: yeah if d if don can sort of talk to whoever 's professor b: yeah . phd g: cuz we 're doing this anyway as part of our you know , the research , visualizing what these features are doing professor b: yeah . phd g: and so either it might not be integrated but it it could potentially be in it . professor b: yeah . well , this is to an audience of researchers phd g: could find some . professor b: so i mean , you know , to let s the goal is to let them know what it is we 're doing . phd g: i mean it 's different . professor b: so that 's phd g: i do n't think anyone has done this on meeting data so it might be neat , you know . professor b: yeah . good . done with that . xml tools ? grad h: um . so i 've been doing a bunch of xml tools where you we 're sort of moving to xml as the general format for everything and i think that 's definitely the right way to go because there are a lot of tools that let you do extraction and reformatting of xml tools . um . so yet again we should probably meet to talk about transcription formats in xml because i 'm not particularly happy with what we have now . i mean it works with transcriber but it it 's a pain to use it in other tools uh because it does n't mark start and end . phd f: start and end of each ? phd d: yeah . grad h: uh utterance . phd f: utterance . just marks ? grad h: so it 's implicit in in there phd f: yeah . grad h: but you have to do a lot of processing to get it . phd f: right . right . grad h: and so and also i 'd like to do the indirect time line business . um but regardless , i mean , w that 's something that you , me , and jane can talk about later . um , but i 've installed xml tools of various sorts in various languages and so if people are interested in doing extracting any information from any of these files , either uh information on users because the user database is that way i 'm converting the key files to xml so that you can extract m uh various inf uh sorted information on individual meetings grad c: cool . phd d: yeah . grad h: and then also the transcripts . and so l just let me know there it 's mostly java and perl but we can get other languages too if if that 's desirable . phd g: oh , quick question on that . is do we have the the seat information ? in in the key files now ? postdoc a: mm - hmm . grad h: the seat information is on the key files for the ones which postdoc a: ah . phd g: oh in for the new one grad h: it 's been recorded , phd g: ok . grad h: yeah . professor b: seat ? phd g: great . sea - yeah . grad h: where where you 're sitting . professor b: oh ! not not the quality or anything . no . phd d: n grad h: right . professor b: ok . i see . grad h: `` it 's pretty soft and squishy . `` professor b: yeah . yeah . phd g: alright . professor b: ok . phd g: ok . grad h: oh , but that might just be me . um . phd g: alright . professor b: that 's more seat information than we wanted . phd g: never mind . phd e: hmm . phd g: i 'm just trying to figure out , you know , when morgan 's voice appears on someone 's microphone are they next to him or are they across from him ? professor b: yeah . grad h: maybe we should bleep that out . professor b: mmm , yeah . phd f: wait a minute , professor b: yeah . phd f: how how w eh where is it in the key file ? grad h: right . the square bracket . phd g: cuz i mean i have n't been putting it in and in by grad h: you have n't been putting it in . phd g: right . postdoc a: well bu phd g: i have not . grad h: oh , ok . postdoc a: is n't it always on the digits ? professor b: some of these are missing . phd g: and professor b: are n't they ? postdoc a: is n't it always on the digits forms ? professor b: some fall out of phd g: well it grad h: yeah so we can go back and fill them in for the ones we have . grad c: ooo . phd g: i mean they 're on th right , these , but i just had n't ever been putting it in the key files . phd f: yeah i i never phd g: and i do n't think chuck was either phd f: i never knew we were supposed to put it in the key file . phd g: cuz grad h: i had told you guys about it phd f: oh really ? phd g: oh , so we 're both sorry . grad h: but phd g: so grad h: i mean this is why i wan na use a g a tool to do it rather than the plain text phd g: ok . phd f: ok . grad h: because with the plain text it 's very easy to skip those things . phd g: ok . grad h: so . um if you use the edit - key , or key - edit phd d: edit - key . grad h: i think it 's edit - key , { comment } command did i show you guys that ? phd d: yep . phd f: you mentioned it , grad h: i did show it to you , phd f: yeah . yeah . grad h: but i think you both said `` no , you 'll just use text file `` . phd f: text . grad h: um it has it in there , a place to fill it in . phd g: ok . phd f: ok . grad h: yeah , and so if you do n't fill it in , you 're not gon na get it in the meetings . phd g: so if right . well i i just realized i had n't been doing it grad h: so . phd g: and probably so grad h: yep . grad c: u grad h: yeah and then the other thing also that thilo noticed is , on the microphone , on channel zero it says hand - held mike or crown mike , phd g: yeah . right . grad h: you actually have to say which one . phd g: i know yeah , i usually delete the grad h: so . phd f: oh ! ok . i did n't do that either . phd g: i do n't , phd d: yeah . phd g: maybe i forgot to d phd f: takes me no time at all to edit these . phd g: but it 's almost yeah . grad h: yeah that 's cuz you kn phd f: i 'm not doing anything . grad h: i i know why . phd g: and i was i was looking at chuck 's , like , `` oh what did chuck do , ok i 'll do that `` . so . grad h: and then uh also in a couple of places instead of filling the participants under `` participants `` they were filled in under `` description `` . professor b: ah , ok . phd g: uh grad h: and so that 's also a problem . so anyway . phd g: we will do better . grad h: that 's it . oh uh also i 'm working on another version of this tool , the the one that shows up here , { comment } that will flash yellow if the mike is n't connected . and it 's not quite ready to go yet because um it 's hard to tell whether the mike 's connected or not because the best quality ones , the crown ones , { comment } are about the same level if they 're off and no one 's o off or if they 're on and no one 's talking . grad c: huh . grad h: um these these ones , they are much easier , there 's a bigger difference . so i 'm working on that and it it sorta works and so eventually we will change to that and then you 'll be able to see graphically if your mike is dropping in or out . grad c: will that also include like batteries dying ? just a any time the mike 's putting out zeros basically . grad h: yep . yep . yep . phd f: but with the screensaver kicking in , it phd d: but grad h: now phd d: y yeah . grad c: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad h: well i 'll turn off the screensaver too . grad c: oops . speaking of which . grad h: um the other thing is as i 've said before , it is actually on the thing . there 's a little level meter but of course no one ever pays attention to it . so i think having it on the screen is more easy to notice . postdoc a: it would be nice if if these had little light indicators , little l e ds for grad h: uh buzzer . postdoc a: yeah , a buzzer . grad h: `` bamp , bamp ! `` professor b: small shocks postdoc a: yeah . actually professor b: administered to the ok . oh grad h: ok , disk backup , et cetera ? um i spoke with dave johnson about putting all the meeting recorder stuff on non - backed - up disk to save the overhead of backup and he pretty much said `` yeah , you could do that if you want `` but he thought it was a bad idea . in fact what he said is doing the manual one , { comment } doing uh nw archive to copy it { comment } is a good idea and we should do that and have it backed up . he w he 's a firm believer in in lots of different modalities of backup . i mean , his point was well taken . this data can not be recovered . phd g: yeah . grad h: and so if a mistake is made and we lose the backup we should have the archive and if then a mistake is made and we lose the archive we should have the backup . professor b: well i guess it is true that even with something that 's backed up it 's not gon na if it 's stationary it 's not going to go through the increment it 's not gon na burden things in the incremental backups . grad h: just just the monthly full . postdoc a: hmm . professor b: yeah , so the monthly full will be a bear but grad h: yeah . but he said that that we sh should n't worry too much about that , that we 're getting a new backup system and we 're far enough away from saturation on full backups that it 's w probably ok . professor b: really ? grad h: and uh , so the only issue here is the timing between getting more disks and uh recording meetings . professor b: so i guess the idea is that we would be reserving the non - backed - up space for things that took less than twenty - four hours to recreate or something like that , right ? grad h: things that are recreatable easily and also yeah , basically things that are recreatable . professor b: yeah . yeah . grad h: the expanded files and things like that . professor b: ok . grad h: they take up a lot more room anyway . professor b: yeah . grad h: uh but we do need more disk . professor b: so we can get more disk . yeah . so . grad h: yeah . and i i think i agree with him . i mean his point was well taken that if we lose one of these we can not get it back . professor b: ok . grad h: i do n't think there was any other et cetera there . professor b: well i was allowing someone else to come up with something related that they had uh phd e: i thought you guys were gon na burn c ds ? grad h: um unfortunately we could burn c ds but first of all it 's a pain . phd e: yeah . grad h: because you have to copy it down to the pc and then burn it and that 's a multi - step procedure . and second of all the the write - once burners as opposed to a professional press do n't last . phd e: yeah . grad h: so i think burning them for distribution is fine but burning them for backup is not a good idea . phd e: i see . ok . grad h: cuz th they they fail after a couple years . phd e: alright . postdoc a: i do have uh uh it 's a different topic . can i add one top topic ? we have time ? i wanted to ask , i know that uh that thilo you were , um , bringing the channeltrans interface onto the windows machine ? and i wanted to know is th phd d: yeah it 's it basically it 's done , postdoc a: it 's all done ? that 's g wonderful . great . phd d: yeah . yeah . grad h: yes , since tcl - tk runs on it , basically things 'll just work . phd d: yeah it yeah , it was just a problem with the snack version and the transcriber version but it 's solved . postdoc a: does and that does that mean , i phd d: so . postdoc a: maybe i should know this but i do n't . does this mean that the that this could be por uh ported to a think - pad note or some other type of uh phd d: yeah , basically uh i did install it on my laptop and yeah postdoc a: wonderful . phd d: it worked . postdoc a: wonderful . professor b: hmm ! good . crosspads ? crosspads ? grad h: uh got an email from uh james landay who basically said `` if you 're not using them , could you return them ? `` so he said he does n't need them , he just periodically w at the end of each term sends out email to everyone who was recorded as having them and asks them if they 're still using them . professor b: so we 've never used them . postdoc a: we used them once . professor b: once ? grad h: we we used them a couple times , postdoc a: mm - hmm . couple times . phd f: them ? there 's more than one ? grad h: but postdoc a: yeah . professor b: i grad h: yeah , we have two . um . professor b: but grad h: my opinion on it is , first , i never take notes anyway so i 'm not gon na use it , um and second , it 's another level of infrastructure that we have to deal with . postdoc a: and i have uh so my my feeling on it is that i think in principle it 's a really nice idea , and you have the time tags which makes it better tha than just taking ra raw notes . on the other hand , i the down side for me was that i think the pen is really noisy . so you have ka kaplunk , kaplunk , kaplunk . and i and i do n't know if it 's audible on the but i i sort of thought that was a disadvantage . i do take notes , i mean , i could be taking notes on these things and i guess the plus with the crosspads would be the time markings but i do n't know . phd d: uh , what is a crosspad ? professor b: so it 's it 's um it 's a regular pad , just a regular pad of paper but there 's this pen which indicates position . grad c: thank you . professor b: and so you have time and position stuff stored phd d: ok . professor b: so that you can you have a record of whatever it is you 've written . phd d: ok . grad h: and then you can download it and they have ocr and searching and all sorts of things . phd d: ok . ok . grad h: so i if you take notes it 's a great little device . postdoc a: could mm - hmm . grad h: but i do n't take notes , professor b: and one of the reasons that it was brought up originally was because uh we were interested in in higher - level things , grad h: so . professor b: not just the , you know , microphone stuff but also summarization and so forth and the question is if you were going to go to some gold standard of what wa what was it that happened in the meeting you know , where would it come from ? and um i think that was one of the things , phd d: yeah . phd g: yeah . grad h: yep . professor b: right ? and so the it seemed like a neat idea . we 'll have a you know , have a scribe , have somebody uh take good notes and then that 's part of the record of the meeting . and then we did it once or twice and we sort of grad h: yep , and then just sort of died out . professor b: probably chose the wrong scribe but it was it 's uh phd g: i mean grad h: yeah that 's right . postdoc a: well i did it one time grad h: yep . postdoc a: but um professor b: yeah . postdoc a: u but i guess the the other thing i 'm thinking is if we wanted that kind of thing i wonder if we 'd lose that much by having someone be a scribe by listening to the tape , to the recording afterwards and taking notes in some other interface . phd f: i mean we 're transcribing it anyways , why do we need notes ? postdoc a: oh it 's la it 's useful , grad h: because that 's summary . postdoc a: have a summary and high points . professor b: summary . phd g: i think there 's also there 's this use that phd f: summarize it from the transcription . phd g: the well , what if you 're sitting there and you just wan na make an x and you do n't wan na take notes and you 're you just wan na phd f: doodle . phd g: get the summary of the transcript from this time location like you know , and and then while you 're bored you do n't do anything and once in a while , maybe there 's a joke and you put a x and { comment } but in in other words you can use that just to highlight times in a very simple way . also with i was thinking and i know morgan disagrees with me on this but suppose you have a group in here and you wan na let them note whenever they think there might be something later that they might not wan na distribute in terms of content , they could just sort of make an x near that point or a question mark that sort of alerts them that when they get the transcript back they c could get some red flags in that transcript region and they can then look at it . so . i know we have n't been using it but i w i can imagine it being useful just for sort of marking time periods grad h: right . phd g: which you then get back in a transcript postdoc a: well . professor b: i guess so , you know , what what makes one think i is maybe we should actually schedule some periods where people go over something later phd g: so . professor b: and and and put some kind of summary or something uh you know , some there 'd be some scribe who would actually listen , w who 'd agreed to actually listen to the whole thing , not transcribe it , but just sort of write down things that struck them as important . but then you do n't you do n't have the time reference uh that you 'd have if you had it live . phd g: right . and you do n't have a lot of other cues that might be useful , professor b: yeah . phd f: how do you synchronize the time in the crosspad and the time of the recording ? phd g: so . grad h: i mean that was one of the issues we talked about originally and that that 's w part of the difficulty is that we need an infrastructure for using the time the crosspads and so that means synchronizing the time phd g: postdoc a: mm - hmm . grad h: you know you want it pretty close and there 's a fair amount of skew because it 's a hand - held unit with a battery postdoc a: well when when i d grad h: and so you postdoc a: ok . grad h: so you have to synchronize at the beginning of each meeting all the pads that are being used , so that it 's synchronized with the time on that and then you have to download to an application , and then you have to figure out what the data formats are and convert it over if you wan na do anything with this information . postdoc a: w mm - hmm . phd e: why grad h: and so there 's a lot of infrastructure which postdoc a: there is an alternative . grad h: unless someone postdoc a: there is an alternative , i mean , it 's still , there 's uh you know , your point stands about there be needing to be an infrastructure , but it does n't have to be synchronized with the little clock 's timer on it . you c i mean , i when i when i did it i synchronized it by voice , by whispering `` one , two , three , four `` onto the microphone grad h: hmm . postdoc a: and uh , you know . grad h: well , but then there 's the infrastructure at the other end phd e: right . grad h: which someone has to listen to that and find that point , postdoc a: yeah , it 's transcribed . it 's in the transcript . grad h: and then mark it . postdoc a: yeah . grad h: so . postdoc a: well it 's in the transcript . phd g: well , could we keep one of these things for another year ? would h i mean is there a big cau grad h: we can keep all both of them for the whole whole year . phd g: just just in case we grad h: i mean , it 's just phd g: even maybe some of the transcribers who might be wanting to annotate uh f just there 's a bunch of things that might be neat to do but i it might not be the case that we can actually synchronize them and then do all the infrastructure but we could at least try it out . professor b: well one thing that we might try um is on some set of meetings , some collection of meetings , maybe edu is the right one or maybe something else , we we get somebody to buy into the idea of doing this as part of the task . i mean , phd g: right . professor b: uh part of the reason i think part of the reason that adam was so interested in uh the speechcorder sort of f idea from the beginning is he said from the beginning he hated taking notes and grad h: yep . professor b: and so forth so and and jane is more into it but eh uh you know i do n't know if you wan na really do do this all the time so i think the thing is to to get someone to actually buy into it and have at least some series of meetings where we do it . um and if so , it 's probably worth having one . the p the the problem with the the more extended view , all these other you know with uh quibbling about particular applications of it is that it looks like it 's hard to get people to um uh routinely use it , i mean it just has n't happened anyway . but maybe if we can get a person to phd g: yeah i do n't think it has to be part of a what everybody does in a meeting but it might be a useful , neat part of the project that we can , you know , show off as a mechanism for synchronizing events in time that happen that you just wan na make a note of , like what jane was talking about with some later browsing , just just as a convenience , even if it 's not a full - blown note taking substitute . phd e: well if you wanted to do that maybe the right architecture for it is to get a pda with a wireless card . and and that way you can synchronize very easily with the the the meeting because you 'll be synchroni you can synchronize with the the linux server and uh phd g: so what kind of input would you be ? phd e: so so , i mean , if you 're not worried about grad h: buttons . phd g: you 'd just be pressing like a a phd e: well well you have a pda and may and you could have the same sort of x interface or whatever , i mean , you 'd have to do a little eh a little bit of coding to do it . phd g: mm - hmm . phd e: but you could imagine , phd g: yeah , that be good . phd e: i mean , if if all you really wanted was you did n't want this secondary note - taking channel but just sort of being able to use m markers of some sort , a pda with a l a wireless card would be the probably the right way to go . i mean even buttons you could do , sort of , i mean , as you said . grad h: i mean for what what you 've been describing buttons would be even more convenient than anything else , phd g: m right . phd e: right . phd g: that would be fine too . grad h: right ? you have the phd g: i mean , i do n't have , you know , grandiose ideas in mind but i 'm just sort of thinking well we 've we 're getting into the next year now and we have a lot of these things worked out at in terms of the speech maybe somebody will be interested in this and postdoc a: i like this pda idea . yeah . professor b: yeah , i do like the idea of having a couple buttons phd g: yeah . grad h: well i 'm sure there would postdoc a: yeah . professor b: where like one one button was `` uh - oh `` and then another button was `` that 's great `` and another button `` that 's f `` phd g: or like this is my `` i 'm supposed to do this `` kind of button , postdoc a: yeah . phd g: like `` i better remember to `` grad h: action item . phd g: yeah something like that or postdoc a: and then grad h: i mean i think the crosspad idea is a good one . postdoc a: uh - huh . grad h: it 's just a question of getting people to use it and getting the infrastructure set up in such a way that it 's not a lot of extra work . i mean that 's part of the reason why it has n't happened is that it 's been a lot of extra work for me phd g: yeah . professor b: right . postdoc a: well , and not just for you . grad h: and postdoc a: but it 's also , it has this problem of having to go from an analog to a d a digital record too , phd g: w postdoc a: does n't it ? i mean grad h: well it 's digital but it 's in a format that is not particularly standard . postdoc a: but i mean , say , if i if if you 're writing if you 're writing notes in it does it it ca n't do handwriting recognition , right ? professor b: no , no , but it 's just it 's just storing the pixel informa position information , postdoc a: ok . professor b: it 's all digital . postdoc a: i i guess what i 'm thinking is that the pda solution you h you have it already without needing to go from the pixelization to a to a i mean professor b: right . you do n't have to phd e: the transfer function is less errorful , postdoc a: oh , nicely put . professor b: yeah . phd e: yes . phd g: yeah , yeah . professor b: yeah . yeah . phd g: well it also it 's maybe realistic cuz people are supposed to be bringing their p d as to the meeting eventually , right ? that 's why we have this little i do n't know what i do n't wan na cause more work for anyone but i can imagine some interesting things that you could do with it and so if we do n't have to return it and we can keep it for a year i do n't know . grad h: well w we do n't we certainly do n't have to return it , as i said . all all he said is that if you 're not using it could you return it , if you are using it feel free to keep it . the point is that we have n't used it at all and are we going to ? professor b: so we have no but uh by i i would suggest you return one . because we we you know , we we have n't used it at all . phd g: yeah . grad h: ok . phd g: we c professor b: we have some aspirations of using them phd g: one would probably be fine . professor b: and phd g: maybe we could do like a student project , you know , maybe someone who wants to do this as their main like s project for something would be cool . professor b: yeah . grad h: yep . i mean if we had them out and sitting on the table people might use them a little more professor b: maybe jeremy could sit in some meetings and press a button when there when when somebody laughed . grad h: although there is a little phd g: well , i 'm yeah , that 's not a bad professor b: yeah , yeah . yeah . phd g: jeremy 's gon na be an he 's a new student starting on modeling brea breath and laughter , actually , which sounds funny but i think it should be cool , professor b: yeah . phd g: so . grad h: sounds breathy to me . phd g: ok . `` ha - ha - ha . `` grad h: breath and lau `` ha - ha - ha - ha `` . `` ha - ha - ha - ha . `` professor b: well dear . grad h: um . professor b: hmm . grad h: that reminded me of something . oh well , too late . it slipped out . professor b: ok . phd g: you 're you 're gon na tease me ? grad h: oh , equipment . phd g: ok . grad h: ordered uh , well i 'm always gon na do that . w uh { comment } we ordered uh more wireless , and so they should be coming in at some point . phd g: great . grad h: and then at the same time i 'll probably rewire the room as per jane 's suggestion so that uh the first n channels are wireless , eh are the m the close - talking and the next n are far - field . professor b: you know what he means but is n't that funny sounding ? `` we ordered more wireless . `` it 's like wires are the things so you 're wiring you 're you 're you we 're we ordered more absence of the thing . phd g: that 's a very philosophical statement from morgan . grad h: wired less , wired more . phd g: i just it 's sort of a anachronism , i mean it 's like it 's great . professor b: anyway . grad h: should we do digits ? do we have anything else ? professor b: yeah . postdoc a: ok . professor b: i mean there 's there 's all this stuff going on uh between uh andreas and and and dave and chuck and others with various kinds of runs uh um recognition runs , trying to figure things out about the features but it 's it 's all sort of in process , so there 's not much to say right now . uh why do n't we start with our our esteemed guest . phd e: ok . alright . grad h: so just the transcript number and then the then the phd e: this is yes , this is number two for me today . professor b: see all you have to do is go away to move way up in the phd e: oh . phd g: we could do simultaneous . initiate him . professor b: we we could . grad h: should we do simultaneous ? phd g: well , i 'm just thinking , are you gon na try to save the data before this next group comes in ? professor b: yeah . grad h: yeah , absolutely . phd g: yeah , so we might wan na do it simultaneous . grad h: i mean you hav sorta have to . professor b: well ok , so let 's do one of those simultaneous ones . phd g: right , so so we might n we might need to do that actually . professor b: that sounds good . grad h: ok . phd e: ok . professor b: everybody ready ? postdoc a: yeah . professor b: a one . phd g: you have to plug your ears , by the way uh eric , grad h: well i have to , phd d: you do n't have to . phd e: ok , alright . phd g: or or you start laughing . grad h: i do n't know about other people . professor b: ok , a one and a two and a three . ok , babble , take five .

the meeting discussed the progress of the transcription , the darpa demos , tools to ensure meeting data quality , data standardization , backup tools , and collecting tangential meeting information . the team was making good progress on the transcription but was still concerned with correcting some of the data . besides that , they were working on adapting the thisl gui for their project and figuring out visual tools for meeting participants to help them know when their recording equipment was failing . the team also discussed collecting additional information , like laughter and breath data as well as meeting notes .