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summarize the discussion on xml tools and meeting data quality </s> phd e: yeah . professor b: um , so . if we ca n't , we ca n't . but uh we 're gon na try to make this an abbreviated meeting cuz the the next next occupants were pushing for it , so . um . so . agenda is according to this , is transcription status , darpa demos xml tools , disks , backups , et cetera and grad h: does anyone have anything to add to the agenda ? professor b: ok . should we just go in order ? transcription status ? who 's that 's probably you . postdoc a: i can do that quickly . um i hired several more transcribers , they 're making great progress . professor b: seven ? postdoc a: seve - several , several . professor b: oh . postdoc a: and uh and uh , uh i 've been uh finishing up the uh double checking . i hoped to have had that done by today but it 's gon na take one more week . grad h: um phd d: i g grad h: as a somewhat segue into the next topic , um could i get a hold of uh the data even if it 's not really corrected yet just so i can get the data formats and make sure the information retrieval stuff is working ? postdoc a: certainly . yeah i mean , it 's in the same place it 's been . grad h: so can you just oh , it is . postdoc a: uh - huh . no change . grad h: ok . just so , `` transcripts `` is the sub - directory ? postdoc a: uh yes . uh - huh . grad h: ok . so i 'll i 'll probably just make some copies of those rather than use the ones that are there . postdoc a: ok . grad h: um and then just we 'll have to remember to delete them once the corrections are made . postdoc a: ok . professor b: ok , wh phd d: i also got anot a short remark to the transcription . i 've uh just processed the first five edu meetings and they are chunked up so they would they probably can be sent to ibm whenever they want them . grad c: cool . phd f: well the second one of those phd d: yep . it 's already at ibm , phd f: is already at ibm . phd d: but the other ones phd f: that 's the one that we 're waiting to hear from them on . phd d: yeah . yeah . postdoc a: ok . phd f: yeah . postdoc a: these are separate from the ones that phd f: as soon as postdoc a: i mean , these are phd f: they 're the ibm set . phd d: yep . grad h: it 's this one . postdoc a: excellent . good . phd f: yeah . and so as soon as we hear from brian that this one is ok grad h: is my mike on ? yeah . phd f: and we get the transcript back and we find out that hopefully there are no problems matching up the transcript with what we gave them , then uh we 'll be ready to go and we 'll just send them the next four as a big batch , postdoc a: excellent . phd f: and let them work on that . grad h: and so we 're doing those as disjoint from the ones we 're transcribing here ? phd f: yes , exactly . grad h: ok , good . phd f: we 're sort of doing things in parallel , that way we can get as much done a at once . grad h: yeah , i think that 's the right way to do it , phd f: yeah . grad h: especially for the information retrieval stuff . anything else on transcription status ? postdoc a: hm - mmm . grad h: ok . professor b: darpa demos , we had the submeeting the other day . grad h: right , which uh so i 've been working on using the thisl tools to do information retrieval on meeting data and the thisl tools are there 're two sets , there 's a back - end and a front - end , so the front - end is the user interface and the back - end is the indexing tool and the querying tool . and so i 've written some tools to convert everything into the right for file formats . and the command line version of the indexing and the querying is now working . so at least on the one meeting that i had the transcript for uh conveniently you can now do information retrieval on it , do type in a a string and get back a list of start - end times for the meeting , phd f: what what kind of uh what does that look like ? the string that you type in . grad h: uh of hits . phd f: what are you are you are they keywords , or are they ? grad h: keywords . phd f: ok . i see . grad h: right ? and so and then it munges it to pass it to the thisl ir which uses an sgml - like format for everything . phd f: i see . professor b: and then does it play something back or that 's something you 're having to program ? grad h: um , right now , i have a tool that will do that on a command line using our standard tools , professor b: yeah . grad h: but my intention is to do a prettier user interface based either so so that 's the other thing i wanted to discuss , is well what should we do for the user interface ? we have two tools that have already been written . um the softsound guys did a web - based one , professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: um , which i have n't used , have n't looked at . dan says it 's pretty good professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: but it does mean you need to be running a web server . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: and so it it 's pretty big and complex . uh and it would be difficult to port to windows because it means porting the web server to windows . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: uh the other option is dan did the tcl - tk thisl gui front - end for broadcast news professor b: yeah . grad h: which i think looks great . i think that 's a nice demo . um and that would be much easier to port to windows . and so i think that 's the way we should go . postdoc a: i can i ask a question ? so um as it stands within the the channeltrans interface , it 's possible to do a find and a play . grad h: mm - hmm . postdoc a: you can find a searched string and play . so e are you so you 're adding like um , i do n't know , uh are they fuzzy matches or are they uh ? grad h: it 's a sort of standard , text - retrieval - based so it 's uh term frequency , inverse document frequency scoring . postdoc a: ok . grad h: um and then there are all sorts of metrics for spacing how far apart they have to be and things like that . so it it 's postdoc a: it 's a lot more sophisticated than the uh the basically windows - based grad h: i it 's like doing a google query or anyth anything else like that . postdoc a: ok . grad h: so i it uses so it pr produces an index ahead of time so you do n't you 're not doing a linear search through all the documents . cuz you can imagine if with if we have the sixty hours ' worth you do would n't wan na do a search . postdoc a: hm - mmm . good . grad h: um you have to do preindexing and so that these tools do all that . and so the work to get the front - end to work would be porting it well uh to get it to work on the unix systems , our side is just rewriting them and modifying them to work for meetings . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: so that it understands that they 're different speakers and that it 's one big audio file instead of a bunch of little ones and just sorta things like that . professor b: mm - hmm . phd g: mm - hmm . phd f: so what does the user see as the result of the query ? grad h: on which tool ? phd f: thisl . grad h: the thisl gui tool which is the one that dan wrote , tcl - tk phd f: yeah . grad h: um you type in a query and then you get back a list of hits and you can type on them and listen to them . click on them rather { comment } with a mouse . phd f: ah . professor b: mmm phd f: so if you typed in `` small heads `` or something you could grad h: right , you 'd get phd f: get back a uh uh { comment } something that would let you click and listen to some audio where that phrase had occurred grad h: something you you 'd get to listen to `` beep `` . phd f: or some professor b: that was a really good look . it 's too bad that that could n't come into the grad h: you could n't get a video . phd g: guess who i practice on ? postdoc a: at some point we 're gon na have to say what that private joke is , that keeps coming up . professor b: yeah . and then again , maybe not . so , uh yeah , that soun that sounds reasonable . yeah , it loo it my my recollection of it is it 's it 's a pretty reasonable uh demo sort of format . grad h: right . phd f: yeah that sounds good . grad h: and so i think there 'd be minimal effort to get it to work , minimally phd f: that sounds really neat . grad h: and then we 'd wan na add things like query by speaker and by meeting and all that sort of stuff . um dave gelbart expressed some interest in working on that so i 'll work with him on it . and it it 's looking pretty good , you know , the fact that i got the query system working . so if we wan na just do a video - based one i think that 'll be easy . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: if we wan na get it to windows it 's gon na be a little more work because the thisl ir , the information retrieval tool 's um , i had difficulty just compiling them on solaris . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: so getting them to compile on windows might be challenging . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: but you were saying that that the uh that there 's that set of tools , uh , cygnus tools , that grad h: so . it certainly helps . phd f: uh - huh . grad h: um , i mean without those i would n't even attempt it . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: yeah . grad h: but what those they what those do is provide sort of a bsd compatibility layer , professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: so that the normal unix function calls all work . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: and you have to have all the o grad h: um , but the problem is that that the thisl tools did n't use anything like autoconf and so you have the normal porting problems of different header files and th some things are defined and some things are n't and uh different compiler work - arounds and so on . so the fact that um it took me a day to get it c to compile under solaris means it 's probably gon na take me s significantly more than that to get it to compile under windows . professor b: how about having it run under free bsd ? phd e: well what you need grad h: free bsd would probably be easier . phd e: all you need to do is say to dan `` gee it would be nice if this worked under autoconf `` and it 'll be done in a day . grad h: that 's true . phd d: uh phd e: right ? grad h: actually you know i should check because he did port it to sprachcore phd e: right . grad h: so he might have done that already . phd e: i i i would n't be surprised . professor b: so grad h: i 'll check at that professor b: but it would what would serve would serve both purposes , is if you contact him and ask him if he 's already done it . phd e: what i phd f: how does it play ? grad h: yeah , right . professor b: if he has then you learn , if he has n't then he 'll do it . grad h: right . postdoc a: wow . phd f: i hope he never listens to these meetings . grad h: that 's right . so , and i 've been corresponding with dan and also with uh uh , softsound guy , uh postdoc a: it 's amazing . professor b: yeah . grad h: blanking on his name . professor b: tony robinson ? phd f: tony robinson ? grad h: do i mean tony ? i guess i do . professor b: yeah . phd e: james christie . grad h: or s or steve renals . professor b: steve renal - steve renals . grad h: which one do i mean ? phd e: steve renals is not softsound , is he ? professor b: no . grad h: my brain is not working , professor b: ok . grad h: i do n't remember who i 've been corresponding with . phd e: steve wro i it 's ste - steve renals wrote thisl ir . grad h: then it 's steve renals . professor b: oh , ok . phd e: ok . grad h: so uh just getting documentation and uh and f and formats , professor b: yeah . grad h: so that 's all going pretty well , professor b: assuming we 're phd e: right . phd f: what about issues of playing sound files @ @ between the two platforms ? grad h: i think we 'll be ok with that . um we have well , that 's a good point too . phd e: here 's a here 's a crazy idea actually . grad h: i do n't know . phd e: why do n't you try and merge transcriber and thisl ir ? they 're both tcl interfaces . grad h: well this is one of the reasons this is the one of the reasons that i 'm gon na have uh dave gelbart gelbart having him volunteer to work on it is a really good thing because he 's worked on the transcriber stuff phd e: right . grad h: and he 's more familiar with tcl - tk than i am . phd e: and then you get they then you get the windows media playing for free . grad h: well that 's snack , not not transcriber . phd e: right . but the point is that the transcriber uses snack and then you can but you can use a a lot of the same functionality and it 's grad h: yeah , yeah , i mean , i i think thisl thisl gui probably uses snack . and so my intention was just to base it on that . phd e: yeah . well my thought was is that it would be nice it would be nice to have the running transcripts um eh you know , from speaker to speaker . grad h: and if it does n't phd e: right ? do you have you have , you know , a speaker mark here and a speaker mark here ? grad h: right , we 'll have to figure out a user interface for that , so . phd e: right . well that eh my thought was if you had like multitrans or whatever do it . or whatever . grad h: yeah . it might be fairly difficult to get that to work in { comment } the little short segments we 'd be talking about and having the search tools and so on . we we can look into it , phd e: yeah . grad h: but professor b: the thing i was asking about with , um , free bsd is that it might be easier to get powerpoint shows running in free bsd than to get this other package running in grad h: yeah , i mean we have to i have to sit down and try it before i make too many judgments , professor b: yeah . grad h: so uh um my experience with the gnu compatibility library is really it 's just as hard and just as easy to port to any system . right ? the windows system is n't any harder because it it looks like a bsd system . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: it 's just , you know , just like all of them , the `` include `` files are a little different and the function calls are a little different . professor b: right . grad h: so i it might be a little easier but it 's not gon na be a lot easier . professor b: ok . so there was that demo , which was one of the main ones , then we talked about um some other stuff which would basically be um showing off the the transcriber interface itself and as you say , maybe we could even merge those in some sense , but but um , uh and part of that was showing off what the speech - non uh nonspeech { comment } stuff that thilo has done s looks like . phd d: yeah . postdoc a: can i ask one more thing about thisl ? so with the ir stuff then you end up with a somewhat prioritized um ? grad h: mm - hmm . mm - hmm , postdoc a: excellent . grad h: ranked . postdoc a: excellent . yeah . phd g: so another idea i w t had just now actually for the demo was whether it might be of interest to sh to show some of the prosody uh work that don 's been doing . professor b: mm - hmm . phd g: um actually show some of the features and then show for instance a task like finding sentence boundaries or finding turn boundaries . um , you know , you can show that graphically , sort of what the features are doing . it , you know , it does n't work great but it 's definitely giving us something . professor b: well i think at at the very least we 're gon na want something illustrative with that phd g: i do n't know if that would be of interest or not . professor b: cuz i 'm gon na want to talk about it and so i if there 's something that shows it graphically it 's much better than me just having a bullet point phd g: yeah . professor b: pointing at something i do n't know much about , phd g: i mean , you 're looking at this now professor b: so . phd g: are you looking at waves or matlab ? grad c: um yeah i 'm starting to and um yeah we can probably find some examples of different type of prosodic events going on . phd g: yeah def professor b: s so when we here were having this demo meeting , what we 're sort of coming up with is that we wan na have all these pieces together , to first order , by the end of the month phd g: i professor b: and then that 'll give us a week or so . grad c: ooo . the end of phd g: oh , the end of this month or next month ? oh , you mean like today ? grad h: this month . professor b: ju phd g: oh . professor b: june . june . june . phd g: next month . grad h: oh sorry , next month . grad c: yeah . phd g: sorry . grad h: today is n't june first , phd f: there 's another one . grad h: is it . professor b: uh that 'll that 'll give us that 'll give us a week or so to uh to port things over to my laptop and make sure that works , phd e: exactly . phd g: sorry . professor b: yeah . phd g: i think , i mean eh where grad c: yeah , i mean i 'll be here . phd g: yeah if d if don can sort of talk to whoever 's professor b: yeah . phd g: cuz we 're doing this anyway as part of our you know , the research , visualizing what these features are doing professor b: yeah . phd g: and so either it might not be integrated but it it could potentially be in it . professor b: yeah . well , this is to an audience of researchers phd g: could find some . professor b: so i mean , you know , to let s the goal is to let them know what it is we 're doing . phd g: i mean it 's different . professor b: so that 's phd g: i do n't think anyone has done this on meeting data so it might be neat , you know . professor b: yeah . good . done with that . xml tools ? grad h: um . so i 've been doing a bunch of xml tools where you we 're sort of moving to xml as the general format for everything and i think that 's definitely the right way to go because there are a lot of tools that let you do extraction and reformatting of xml tools . um . so yet again we should probably meet to talk about transcription formats in xml because i 'm not particularly happy with what we have now . i mean it works with transcriber but it it 's a pain to use it in other tools uh because it does n't mark start and end . phd f: start and end of each ? phd d: yeah . grad h: uh utterance . phd f: utterance . just marks ? grad h: so it 's implicit in in there phd f: yeah . grad h: but you have to do a lot of processing to get it . phd f: right . right . grad h: and so and also i 'd like to do the indirect time line business . um but regardless , i mean , w that 's something that you , me , and jane can talk about later . um , but i 've installed xml tools of various sorts in various languages and so if people are interested in doing extracting any information from any of these files , either uh information on users because the user database is that way i 'm converting the key files to xml so that you can extract m uh various inf uh sorted information on individual meetings grad c: cool . phd d: yeah . grad h: and then also the transcripts . and so l just let me know there it 's mostly java and perl but we can get other languages too if if that 's desirable . phd g: oh , quick question on that . is do we have the the seat information ? in in the key files now ? postdoc a: mm - hmm . grad h: the seat information is on the key files for the ones which postdoc a: ah . phd g: oh in for the new one grad h: it 's been recorded , phd g: ok . grad h: yeah . professor b: seat ? phd g: great . sea - yeah . grad h: where where you 're sitting . professor b: oh ! not not the quality or anything . no . phd d: n grad h: right . professor b: ok . i see . grad h: `` it 's pretty soft and squishy . `` professor b: yeah . yeah . phd g: alright . professor b: ok . phd g: ok . grad h: oh , but that might just be me . um . phd g: alright . professor b: that 's more seat information than we wanted . phd g: never mind . phd e: hmm . phd g: i 'm just trying to figure out , you know , when morgan 's voice appears on someone 's microphone are they next to him or are they across from him ? professor b: yeah . grad h: maybe we should bleep that out . professor b: mmm , yeah . phd f: wait a minute , professor b: yeah . phd f: how how w eh where is it in the key file ? grad h: right . the square bracket . phd g: cuz i mean i have n't been putting it in and in by grad h: you have n't been putting it in . phd g: right . postdoc a: well bu phd g: i have not . grad h: oh , ok . postdoc a: is n't it always on the digits ? professor b: some of these are missing . phd g: and professor b: are n't they ? postdoc a: is n't it always on the digits forms ? professor b: some fall out of phd g: well it grad h: yeah so we can go back and fill them in for the ones we have . grad c: ooo . phd g: i mean they 're on th right , these , but i just had n't ever been putting it in the key files . phd f: yeah i i never phd g: and i do n't think chuck was either phd f: i never knew we were supposed to put it in the key file . phd g: cuz grad h: i had told you guys about it phd f: oh really ? phd g: oh , so we 're both sorry . grad h: but phd g: so grad h: i mean this is why i wan na use a g a tool to do it rather than the plain text phd g: ok . phd f: ok . grad h: because with the plain text it 's very easy to skip those things . phd g: ok . grad h: so . um if you use the edit - key , or key - edit phd d: edit - key . grad h: i think it 's edit - key , { comment } command did i show you guys that ? phd d: yep . phd f: you mentioned it , grad h: i did show it to you , phd f: yeah . yeah . grad h: but i think you both said `` no , you 'll just use text file `` . phd f: text . grad h: um it has it in there , a place to fill it in . phd g: ok . phd f: ok . grad h: yeah , and so if you do n't fill it in , you 're not gon na get it in the meetings . phd g: so if right . well i i just realized i had n't been doing it grad h: so . phd g: and probably so grad h: yep . grad c: u grad h: yeah and then the other thing also that thilo noticed is , on the microphone , on channel zero it says hand - held mike or crown mike , phd g: yeah . right . grad h: you actually have to say which one . phd g: i know yeah , i usually delete the grad h: so . phd f: oh ! ok . i did n't do that either . phd g: i do n't , phd d: yeah . phd g: maybe i forgot to d phd f: takes me no time at all to edit these . phd g: but it 's almost yeah . grad h: yeah that 's cuz you kn phd f: i 'm not doing anything . grad h: i i know why . phd g: and i was i was looking at chuck 's , like , `` oh what did chuck do , ok i 'll do that `` . so . grad h: and then uh also in a couple of places instead of filling the participants under `` participants `` they were filled in under `` description `` . professor b: ah , ok . phd g: uh grad h: and so that 's also a problem . so anyway . phd g: we will do better . grad h: that 's it . oh uh also i 'm working on another version of this tool , the the one that shows up here , { comment } that will flash yellow if the mike is n't connected . and it 's not quite ready to go yet because um it 's hard to tell whether the mike 's connected or not because the best quality ones , the crown ones , { comment } are about the same level if they 're off and no one 's o off or if they 're on and no one 's talking . grad c: huh . grad h: um these these ones , they are much easier , there 's a bigger difference . so i 'm working on that and it it sorta works and so eventually we will change to that and then you 'll be able to see graphically if your mike is dropping in or out . grad c: will that also include like batteries dying ? just a any time the mike 's putting out zeros basically . grad h: yep . yep . yep . phd f: but with the screensaver kicking in , it phd d: but grad h: now phd d: y yeah . grad c: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad h: well i 'll turn off the screensaver too . grad c: oops . speaking of which . grad h: um the other thing is as i 've said before , it is actually on the thing . there 's a little level meter but of course no one ever pays attention to it . so i think having it on the screen is more easy to notice . postdoc a: it would be nice if if these had little light indicators , little l e ds for grad h: uh buzzer . postdoc a: yeah , a buzzer . grad h: `` bamp , bamp ! `` professor b: small shocks postdoc a: yeah . actually professor b: administered to the ok . oh grad h: ok , disk backup , et cetera ? um i spoke with dave johnson about putting all the meeting recorder stuff on non - backed - up disk to save the overhead of backup and he pretty much said `` yeah , you could do that if you want `` but he thought it was a bad idea . in fact what he said is doing the manual one , { comment } doing uh nw archive to copy it { comment } is a good idea and we should do that and have it backed up . he w he 's a firm believer in in lots of different modalities of backup . i mean , his point was well taken . this data can not be recovered . phd g: yeah . grad h: and so if a mistake is made and we lose the backup we should have the archive and if then a mistake is made and we lose the archive we should have the backup . professor b: well i guess it is true that even with something that 's backed up it 's not gon na if it 's stationary it 's not going to go through the increment it 's not gon na burden things in the incremental backups . grad h: just just the monthly full . postdoc a: hmm . professor b: yeah , so the monthly full will be a bear but grad h: yeah . but he said that that we sh should n't worry too much about that , that we 're getting a new backup system and we 're far enough away from saturation on full backups that it 's w probably ok . professor b: really ? grad h: and uh , so the only issue here is the timing between getting more disks and uh recording meetings . professor b: so i guess the idea is that we would be reserving the non - backed - up space for things that took less than twenty - four hours to recreate or something like that , right ? grad h: things that are recreatable easily and also yeah , basically things that are recreatable . professor b: yeah . yeah . grad h: the expanded files and things like that . professor b: ok . grad h: they take up a lot more room anyway . professor b: yeah . grad h: uh but we do need more disk . professor b: so we can get more disk . yeah . so . grad h: yeah . and i i think i agree with him . i mean his point was well taken that if we lose one of these we can not get it back . professor b: ok . grad h: i do n't think there was any other et cetera there . professor b: well i was allowing someone else to come up with something related that they had uh phd e: i thought you guys were gon na burn c ds ? grad h: um unfortunately we could burn c ds but first of all it 's a pain . phd e: yeah . grad h: because you have to copy it down to the pc and then burn it and that 's a multi - step procedure . and second of all the the write - once burners as opposed to a professional press do n't last . phd e: yeah . grad h: so i think burning them for distribution is fine but burning them for backup is not a good idea . phd e: i see . ok . grad h: cuz th they they fail after a couple years . phd e: alright . postdoc a: i do have uh uh it 's a different topic . can i add one top topic ? we have time ? i wanted to ask , i know that uh that thilo you were , um , bringing the channeltrans interface onto the windows machine ? and i wanted to know is th phd d: yeah it 's it basically it 's done , postdoc a: it 's all done ? that 's g wonderful . great . phd d: yeah . yeah . grad h: yes , since tcl - tk runs on it , basically things 'll just work . phd d: yeah it yeah , it was just a problem with the snack version and the transcriber version but it 's solved . postdoc a: does and that does that mean , i phd d: so . postdoc a: maybe i should know this but i do n't . does this mean that the that this could be por uh ported to a think - pad note or some other type of uh phd d: yeah , basically uh i did install it on my laptop and yeah postdoc a: wonderful . phd d: it worked . postdoc a: wonderful . professor b: hmm ! good . crosspads ? crosspads ? grad h: uh got an email from uh james landay who basically said `` if you 're not using them , could you return them ? `` so he said he does n't need them , he just periodically w at the end of each term sends out email to everyone who was recorded as having them and asks them if they 're still using them . professor b: so we 've never used them . postdoc a: we used them once . professor b: once ? grad h: we we used them a couple times , postdoc a: mm - hmm . couple times . phd f: them ? there 's more than one ? grad h: but postdoc a: yeah . professor b: i grad h: yeah , we have two . um . professor b: but grad h: my opinion on it is , first , i never take notes anyway so i 'm not gon na use it , um and second , it 's another level of infrastructure that we have to deal with . postdoc a: and i have uh so my my feeling on it is that i think in principle it 's a really nice idea , and you have the time tags which makes it better tha than just taking ra raw notes . on the other hand , i the down side for me was that i think the pen is really noisy . so you have ka kaplunk , kaplunk , kaplunk . and i and i do n't know if it 's audible on the but i i sort of thought that was a disadvantage . i do take notes , i mean , i could be taking notes on these things and i guess the plus with the crosspads would be the time markings but i do n't know . phd d: uh , what is a crosspad ? professor b: so it 's it 's um it 's a regular pad , just a regular pad of paper but there 's this pen which indicates position . grad c: thank you . professor b: and so you have time and position stuff stored phd d: ok . professor b: so that you can you have a record of whatever it is you 've written . phd d: ok . grad h: and then you can download it and they have ocr and searching and all sorts of things . phd d: ok . ok . grad h: so i if you take notes it 's a great little device . postdoc a: could mm - hmm . grad h: but i do n't take notes , professor b: and one of the reasons that it was brought up originally was because uh we were interested in in higher - level things , grad h: so . professor b: not just the , you know , microphone stuff but also summarization and so forth and the question is if you were going to go to some gold standard of what wa what was it that happened in the meeting you know , where would it come from ? and um i think that was one of the things , phd d: yeah . phd g: yeah . grad h: yep . professor b: right ? and so the it seemed like a neat idea . we 'll have a you know , have a scribe , have somebody uh take good notes and then that 's part of the record of the meeting . and then we did it once or twice and we sort of grad h: yep , and then just sort of died out . professor b: probably chose the wrong scribe but it was it 's uh phd g: i mean grad h: yeah that 's right . postdoc a: well i did it one time grad h: yep . postdoc a: but um professor b: yeah . postdoc a: u but i guess the the other thing i 'm thinking is if we wanted that kind of thing i wonder if we 'd lose that much by having someone be a scribe by listening to the tape , to the recording afterwards and taking notes in some other interface . phd f: i mean we 're transcribing it anyways , why do we need notes ? postdoc a: oh it 's la it 's useful , grad h: because that 's summary . postdoc a: have a summary and high points . professor b: summary . phd g: i think there 's also there 's this use that phd f: summarize it from the transcription . phd g: the well , what if you 're sitting there and you just wan na make an x and you do n't wan na take notes and you 're you just wan na phd f: doodle . phd g: get the summary of the transcript from this time location like you know , and and then while you 're bored you do n't do anything and once in a while , maybe there 's a joke and you put a x and { comment } but in in other words you can use that just to highlight times in a very simple way . also with i was thinking and i know morgan disagrees with me on this but suppose you have a group in here and you wan na let them note whenever they think there might be something later that they might not wan na distribute in terms of content , they could just sort of make an x near that point or a question mark that sort of alerts them that when they get the transcript back they c could get some red flags in that transcript region and they can then look at it . so . i know we have n't been using it but i w i can imagine it being useful just for sort of marking time periods grad h: right . phd g: which you then get back in a transcript postdoc a: well . professor b: i guess so , you know , what what makes one think i is maybe we should actually schedule some periods where people go over something later phd g: so . professor b: and and and put some kind of summary or something uh you know , some there 'd be some scribe who would actually listen , w who 'd agreed to actually listen to the whole thing , not transcribe it , but just sort of write down things that struck them as important . but then you do n't you do n't have the time reference uh that you 'd have if you had it live . phd g: right . and you do n't have a lot of other cues that might be useful , professor b: yeah . phd f: how do you synchronize the time in the crosspad and the time of the recording ? phd g: so . grad h: i mean that was one of the issues we talked about originally and that that 's w part of the difficulty is that we need an infrastructure for using the time the crosspads and so that means synchronizing the time phd g: postdoc a: mm - hmm . grad h: you know you want it pretty close and there 's a fair amount of skew because it 's a hand - held unit with a battery postdoc a: well when when i d grad h: and so you postdoc a: ok . grad h: so you have to synchronize at the beginning of each meeting all the pads that are being used , so that it 's synchronized with the time on that and then you have to download to an application , and then you have to figure out what the data formats are and convert it over if you wan na do anything with this information . postdoc a: w mm - hmm . phd e: why grad h: and so there 's a lot of infrastructure which postdoc a: there is an alternative . grad h: unless someone postdoc a: there is an alternative , i mean , it 's still , there 's uh you know , your point stands about there be needing to be an infrastructure , but it does n't have to be synchronized with the little clock 's timer on it . you c i mean , i when i when i did it i synchronized it by voice , by whispering `` one , two , three , four `` onto the microphone grad h: hmm . postdoc a: and uh , you know . grad h: well , but then there 's the infrastructure at the other end phd e: right . grad h: which someone has to listen to that and find that point , postdoc a: yeah , it 's transcribed . it 's in the transcript . grad h: and then mark it . postdoc a: yeah . grad h: so . postdoc a: well it 's in the transcript . phd g: well , could we keep one of these things for another year ? would h i mean is there a big cau grad h: we can keep all both of them for the whole whole year . phd g: just just in case we grad h: i mean , it 's just phd g: even maybe some of the transcribers who might be wanting to annotate uh f just there 's a bunch of things that might be neat to do but i it might not be the case that we can actually synchronize them and then do all the infrastructure but we could at least try it out . professor b: well one thing that we might try um is on some set of meetings , some collection of meetings , maybe edu is the right one or maybe something else , we we get somebody to buy into the idea of doing this as part of the task . i mean , phd g: right . professor b: uh part of the reason i think part of the reason that adam was so interested in uh the speechcorder sort of f idea from the beginning is he said from the beginning he hated taking notes and grad h: yep . professor b: and so forth so and and jane is more into it but eh uh you know i do n't know if you wan na really do do this all the time so i think the thing is to to get someone to actually buy into it and have at least some series of meetings where we do it . um and if so , it 's probably worth having one . the p the the problem with the the more extended view , all these other you know with uh quibbling about particular applications of it is that it looks like it 's hard to get people to um uh routinely use it , i mean it just has n't happened anyway . but maybe if we can get a person to phd g: yeah i do n't think it has to be part of a what everybody does in a meeting but it might be a useful , neat part of the project that we can , you know , show off as a mechanism for synchronizing events in time that happen that you just wan na make a note of , like what jane was talking about with some later browsing , just just as a convenience , even if it 's not a full - blown note taking substitute . phd e: well if you wanted to do that maybe the right architecture for it is to get a pda with a wireless card . and and that way you can synchronize very easily with the the the meeting because you 'll be synchroni you can synchronize with the the linux server and uh phd g: so what kind of input would you be ? phd e: so so , i mean , if you 're not worried about grad h: buttons . phd g: you 'd just be pressing like a a phd e: well well you have a pda and may and you could have the same sort of x interface or whatever , i mean , you 'd have to do a little eh a little bit of coding to do it . phd g: mm - hmm . phd e: but you could imagine , phd g: yeah , that be good . phd e: i mean , if if all you really wanted was you did n't want this secondary note - taking channel but just sort of being able to use m markers of some sort , a pda with a l a wireless card would be the probably the right way to go . i mean even buttons you could do , sort of , i mean , as you said . grad h: i mean for what what you 've been describing buttons would be even more convenient than anything else , phd g: m right . phd e: right . phd g: that would be fine too . grad h: right ? you have the phd g: i mean , i do n't have , you know , grandiose ideas in mind but i 'm just sort of thinking well we 've we 're getting into the next year now and we have a lot of these things worked out at in terms of the speech maybe somebody will be interested in this and postdoc a: i like this pda idea . yeah . professor b: yeah , i do like the idea of having a couple buttons phd g: yeah . grad h: well i 'm sure there would postdoc a: yeah . professor b: where like one one button was `` uh - oh `` and then another button was `` that 's great `` and another button `` that 's f `` phd g: or like this is my `` i 'm supposed to do this `` kind of button , postdoc a: yeah . phd g: like `` i better remember to `` grad h: action item . phd g: yeah something like that or postdoc a: and then grad h: i mean i think the crosspad idea is a good one . postdoc a: uh - huh . grad h: it 's just a question of getting people to use it and getting the infrastructure set up in such a way that it 's not a lot of extra work . i mean that 's part of the reason why it has n't happened is that it 's been a lot of extra work for me phd g: yeah . professor b: right . postdoc a: well , and not just for you . grad h: and postdoc a: but it 's also , it has this problem of having to go from an analog to a d a digital record too , phd g: w postdoc a: does n't it ? i mean grad h: well it 's digital but it 's in a format that is not particularly standard . postdoc a: but i mean , say , if i if if you 're writing if you 're writing notes in it does it it ca n't do handwriting recognition , right ? professor b: no , no , but it 's just it 's just storing the pixel informa position information , postdoc a: ok . professor b: it 's all digital . postdoc a: i i guess what i 'm thinking is that the pda solution you h you have it already without needing to go from the pixelization to a to a i mean professor b: right . you do n't have to phd e: the transfer function is less errorful , postdoc a: oh , nicely put . professor b: yeah . phd e: yes . phd g: yeah , yeah . professor b: yeah . yeah . phd g: well it also it 's maybe realistic cuz people are supposed to be bringing their p d as to the meeting eventually , right ? that 's why we have this little i do n't know what i do n't wan na cause more work for anyone but i can imagine some interesting things that you could do with it and so if we do n't have to return it and we can keep it for a year i do n't know . grad h: well w we do n't we certainly do n't have to return it , as i said . all all he said is that if you 're not using it could you return it , if you are using it feel free to keep it . the point is that we have n't used it at all and are we going to ? professor b: so we have no but uh by i i would suggest you return one . because we we you know , we we have n't used it at all . phd g: yeah . grad h: ok . phd g: we c professor b: we have some aspirations of using them phd g: one would probably be fine . professor b: and phd g: maybe we could do like a student project , you know , maybe someone who wants to do this as their main like s project for something would be cool . professor b: yeah . grad h: yep . i mean if we had them out and sitting on the table people might use them a little more professor b: maybe jeremy could sit in some meetings and press a button when there when when somebody laughed . grad h: although there is a little phd g: well , i 'm yeah , that 's not a bad professor b: yeah , yeah . yeah . phd g: jeremy 's gon na be an he 's a new student starting on modeling brea breath and laughter , actually , which sounds funny but i think it should be cool , professor b: yeah . phd g: so . grad h: sounds breathy to me . phd g: ok . `` ha - ha - ha . `` grad h: breath and lau `` ha - ha - ha - ha `` . `` ha - ha - ha - ha . `` professor b: well dear . grad h: um . professor b: hmm . grad h: that reminded me of something . oh well , too late . it slipped out . professor b: ok . phd g: you 're you 're gon na tease me ? grad h: oh , equipment . phd g: ok . grad h: ordered uh , well i 'm always gon na do that . w uh { comment } we ordered uh more wireless , and so they should be coming in at some point . phd g: great . grad h: and then at the same time i 'll probably rewire the room as per jane 's suggestion so that uh the first n channels are wireless , eh are the m the close - talking and the next n are far - field . professor b: you know what he means but is n't that funny sounding ? `` we ordered more wireless . `` it 's like wires are the things so you 're wiring you 're you 're you we 're we ordered more absence of the thing . phd g: that 's a very philosophical statement from morgan . grad h: wired less , wired more . phd g: i just it 's sort of a anachronism , i mean it 's like it 's great . professor b: anyway . grad h: should we do digits ? do we have anything else ? professor b: yeah . postdoc a: ok . professor b: i mean there 's there 's all this stuff going on uh between uh andreas and and and dave and chuck and others with various kinds of runs uh um recognition runs , trying to figure things out about the features but it 's it 's all sort of in process , so there 's not much to say right now . uh why do n't we start with our our esteemed guest . phd e: ok . alright . grad h: so just the transcript number and then the then the phd e: this is yes , this is number two for me today . professor b: see all you have to do is go away to move way up in the phd e: oh . phd g: we could do simultaneous . initiate him . professor b: we we could . grad h: should we do simultaneous ? phd g: well , i 'm just thinking , are you gon na try to save the data before this next group comes in ? professor b: yeah . grad h: yeah , absolutely . phd g: yeah , so we might wan na do it simultaneous . grad h: i mean you hav sorta have to . professor b: well ok , so let 's do one of those simultaneous ones . phd g: right , so so we might n we might need to do that actually . professor b: that sounds good . grad h: ok . phd e: ok . professor b: everybody ready ? postdoc a: yeah . professor b: a one . phd g: you have to plug your ears , by the way uh eric , grad h: well i have to , phd d: you do n't have to . phd e: ok , alright . phd g: or or you start laughing . grad h: i do n't know about other people . professor b: ok , a one and a two and a three . ok , babble , take five .

the team had started moving to xml as their general format to standardize their data . though , there is still concern about the limitations of xml . the participants noted that sometimes the mic of one subject catches sound from another . they also discussed implementing tools to help participants know when the quality of their audio is bad .

summarize the discussion on backups and collecting notes with meetings </s> phd e: yeah . professor b: um , so . if we ca n't , we ca n't . but uh we 're gon na try to make this an abbreviated meeting cuz the the next next occupants were pushing for it , so . um . so . agenda is according to this , is transcription status , darpa demos xml tools , disks , backups , et cetera and grad h: does anyone have anything to add to the agenda ? professor b: ok . should we just go in order ? transcription status ? who 's that 's probably you . postdoc a: i can do that quickly . um i hired several more transcribers , they 're making great progress . professor b: seven ? postdoc a: seve - several , several . professor b: oh . postdoc a: and uh and uh , uh i 've been uh finishing up the uh double checking . i hoped to have had that done by today but it 's gon na take one more week . grad h: um phd d: i g grad h: as a somewhat segue into the next topic , um could i get a hold of uh the data even if it 's not really corrected yet just so i can get the data formats and make sure the information retrieval stuff is working ? postdoc a: certainly . yeah i mean , it 's in the same place it 's been . grad h: so can you just oh , it is . postdoc a: uh - huh . no change . grad h: ok . just so , `` transcripts `` is the sub - directory ? postdoc a: uh yes . uh - huh . grad h: ok . so i 'll i 'll probably just make some copies of those rather than use the ones that are there . postdoc a: ok . grad h: um and then just we 'll have to remember to delete them once the corrections are made . postdoc a: ok . professor b: ok , wh phd d: i also got anot a short remark to the transcription . i 've uh just processed the first five edu meetings and they are chunked up so they would they probably can be sent to ibm whenever they want them . grad c: cool . phd f: well the second one of those phd d: yep . it 's already at ibm , phd f: is already at ibm . phd d: but the other ones phd f: that 's the one that we 're waiting to hear from them on . phd d: yeah . yeah . postdoc a: ok . phd f: yeah . postdoc a: these are separate from the ones that phd f: as soon as postdoc a: i mean , these are phd f: they 're the ibm set . phd d: yep . grad h: it 's this one . postdoc a: excellent . good . phd f: yeah . and so as soon as we hear from brian that this one is ok grad h: is my mike on ? yeah . phd f: and we get the transcript back and we find out that hopefully there are no problems matching up the transcript with what we gave them , then uh we 'll be ready to go and we 'll just send them the next four as a big batch , postdoc a: excellent . phd f: and let them work on that . grad h: and so we 're doing those as disjoint from the ones we 're transcribing here ? phd f: yes , exactly . grad h: ok , good . phd f: we 're sort of doing things in parallel , that way we can get as much done a at once . grad h: yeah , i think that 's the right way to do it , phd f: yeah . grad h: especially for the information retrieval stuff . anything else on transcription status ? postdoc a: hm - mmm . grad h: ok . professor b: darpa demos , we had the submeeting the other day . grad h: right , which uh so i 've been working on using the thisl tools to do information retrieval on meeting data and the thisl tools are there 're two sets , there 's a back - end and a front - end , so the front - end is the user interface and the back - end is the indexing tool and the querying tool . and so i 've written some tools to convert everything into the right for file formats . and the command line version of the indexing and the querying is now working . so at least on the one meeting that i had the transcript for uh conveniently you can now do information retrieval on it , do type in a a string and get back a list of start - end times for the meeting , phd f: what what kind of uh what does that look like ? the string that you type in . grad h: uh of hits . phd f: what are you are you are they keywords , or are they ? grad h: keywords . phd f: ok . i see . grad h: right ? and so and then it munges it to pass it to the thisl ir which uses an sgml - like format for everything . phd f: i see . professor b: and then does it play something back or that 's something you 're having to program ? grad h: um , right now , i have a tool that will do that on a command line using our standard tools , professor b: yeah . grad h: but my intention is to do a prettier user interface based either so so that 's the other thing i wanted to discuss , is well what should we do for the user interface ? we have two tools that have already been written . um the softsound guys did a web - based one , professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: um , which i have n't used , have n't looked at . dan says it 's pretty good professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: but it does mean you need to be running a web server . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: and so it it 's pretty big and complex . uh and it would be difficult to port to windows because it means porting the web server to windows . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: uh the other option is dan did the tcl - tk thisl gui front - end for broadcast news professor b: yeah . grad h: which i think looks great . i think that 's a nice demo . um and that would be much easier to port to windows . and so i think that 's the way we should go . postdoc a: i can i ask a question ? so um as it stands within the the channeltrans interface , it 's possible to do a find and a play . grad h: mm - hmm . postdoc a: you can find a searched string and play . so e are you so you 're adding like um , i do n't know , uh are they fuzzy matches or are they uh ? grad h: it 's a sort of standard , text - retrieval - based so it 's uh term frequency , inverse document frequency scoring . postdoc a: ok . grad h: um and then there are all sorts of metrics for spacing how far apart they have to be and things like that . so it it 's postdoc a: it 's a lot more sophisticated than the uh the basically windows - based grad h: i it 's like doing a google query or anyth anything else like that . postdoc a: ok . grad h: so i it uses so it pr produces an index ahead of time so you do n't you 're not doing a linear search through all the documents . cuz you can imagine if with if we have the sixty hours ' worth you do would n't wan na do a search . postdoc a: hm - mmm . good . grad h: um you have to do preindexing and so that these tools do all that . and so the work to get the front - end to work would be porting it well uh to get it to work on the unix systems , our side is just rewriting them and modifying them to work for meetings . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: so that it understands that they 're different speakers and that it 's one big audio file instead of a bunch of little ones and just sorta things like that . professor b: mm - hmm . phd g: mm - hmm . phd f: so what does the user see as the result of the query ? grad h: on which tool ? phd f: thisl . grad h: the thisl gui tool which is the one that dan wrote , tcl - tk phd f: yeah . grad h: um you type in a query and then you get back a list of hits and you can type on them and listen to them . click on them rather { comment } with a mouse . phd f: ah . professor b: mmm phd f: so if you typed in `` small heads `` or something you could grad h: right , you 'd get phd f: get back a uh uh { comment } something that would let you click and listen to some audio where that phrase had occurred grad h: something you you 'd get to listen to `` beep `` . phd f: or some professor b: that was a really good look . it 's too bad that that could n't come into the grad h: you could n't get a video . phd g: guess who i practice on ? postdoc a: at some point we 're gon na have to say what that private joke is , that keeps coming up . professor b: yeah . and then again , maybe not . so , uh yeah , that soun that sounds reasonable . yeah , it loo it my my recollection of it is it 's it 's a pretty reasonable uh demo sort of format . grad h: right . phd f: yeah that sounds good . grad h: and so i think there 'd be minimal effort to get it to work , minimally phd f: that sounds really neat . grad h: and then we 'd wan na add things like query by speaker and by meeting and all that sort of stuff . um dave gelbart expressed some interest in working on that so i 'll work with him on it . and it it 's looking pretty good , you know , the fact that i got the query system working . so if we wan na just do a video - based one i think that 'll be easy . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: if we wan na get it to windows it 's gon na be a little more work because the thisl ir , the information retrieval tool 's um , i had difficulty just compiling them on solaris . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: so getting them to compile on windows might be challenging . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: but you were saying that that the uh that there 's that set of tools , uh , cygnus tools , that grad h: so . it certainly helps . phd f: uh - huh . grad h: um , i mean without those i would n't even attempt it . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: yeah . grad h: but what those they what those do is provide sort of a bsd compatibility layer , professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: so that the normal unix function calls all work . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: and you have to have all the o grad h: um , but the problem is that that the thisl tools did n't use anything like autoconf and so you have the normal porting problems of different header files and th some things are defined and some things are n't and uh different compiler work - arounds and so on . so the fact that um it took me a day to get it c to compile under solaris means it 's probably gon na take me s significantly more than that to get it to compile under windows . professor b: how about having it run under free bsd ? phd e: well what you need grad h: free bsd would probably be easier . phd e: all you need to do is say to dan `` gee it would be nice if this worked under autoconf `` and it 'll be done in a day . grad h: that 's true . phd d: uh phd e: right ? grad h: actually you know i should check because he did port it to sprachcore phd e: right . grad h: so he might have done that already . phd e: i i i would n't be surprised . professor b: so grad h: i 'll check at that professor b: but it would what would serve would serve both purposes , is if you contact him and ask him if he 's already done it . phd e: what i phd f: how does it play ? grad h: yeah , right . professor b: if he has then you learn , if he has n't then he 'll do it . grad h: right . postdoc a: wow . phd f: i hope he never listens to these meetings . grad h: that 's right . so , and i 've been corresponding with dan and also with uh uh , softsound guy , uh postdoc a: it 's amazing . professor b: yeah . grad h: blanking on his name . professor b: tony robinson ? phd f: tony robinson ? grad h: do i mean tony ? i guess i do . professor b: yeah . phd e: james christie . grad h: or s or steve renals . professor b: steve renal - steve renals . grad h: which one do i mean ? phd e: steve renals is not softsound , is he ? professor b: no . grad h: my brain is not working , professor b: ok . grad h: i do n't remember who i 've been corresponding with . phd e: steve wro i it 's ste - steve renals wrote thisl ir . grad h: then it 's steve renals . professor b: oh , ok . phd e: ok . grad h: so uh just getting documentation and uh and f and formats , professor b: yeah . grad h: so that 's all going pretty well , professor b: assuming we 're phd e: right . phd f: what about issues of playing sound files @ @ between the two platforms ? grad h: i think we 'll be ok with that . um we have well , that 's a good point too . phd e: here 's a here 's a crazy idea actually . grad h: i do n't know . phd e: why do n't you try and merge transcriber and thisl ir ? they 're both tcl interfaces . grad h: well this is one of the reasons this is the one of the reasons that i 'm gon na have uh dave gelbart gelbart having him volunteer to work on it is a really good thing because he 's worked on the transcriber stuff phd e: right . grad h: and he 's more familiar with tcl - tk than i am . phd e: and then you get they then you get the windows media playing for free . grad h: well that 's snack , not not transcriber . phd e: right . but the point is that the transcriber uses snack and then you can but you can use a a lot of the same functionality and it 's grad h: yeah , yeah , i mean , i i think thisl thisl gui probably uses snack . and so my intention was just to base it on that . phd e: yeah . well my thought was is that it would be nice it would be nice to have the running transcripts um eh you know , from speaker to speaker . grad h: and if it does n't phd e: right ? do you have you have , you know , a speaker mark here and a speaker mark here ? grad h: right , we 'll have to figure out a user interface for that , so . phd e: right . well that eh my thought was if you had like multitrans or whatever do it . or whatever . grad h: yeah . it might be fairly difficult to get that to work in { comment } the little short segments we 'd be talking about and having the search tools and so on . we we can look into it , phd e: yeah . grad h: but professor b: the thing i was asking about with , um , free bsd is that it might be easier to get powerpoint shows running in free bsd than to get this other package running in grad h: yeah , i mean we have to i have to sit down and try it before i make too many judgments , professor b: yeah . grad h: so uh um my experience with the gnu compatibility library is really it 's just as hard and just as easy to port to any system . right ? the windows system is n't any harder because it it looks like a bsd system . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: it 's just , you know , just like all of them , the `` include `` files are a little different and the function calls are a little different . professor b: right . grad h: so i it might be a little easier but it 's not gon na be a lot easier . professor b: ok . so there was that demo , which was one of the main ones , then we talked about um some other stuff which would basically be um showing off the the transcriber interface itself and as you say , maybe we could even merge those in some sense , but but um , uh and part of that was showing off what the speech - non uh nonspeech { comment } stuff that thilo has done s looks like . phd d: yeah . postdoc a: can i ask one more thing about thisl ? so with the ir stuff then you end up with a somewhat prioritized um ? grad h: mm - hmm . mm - hmm , postdoc a: excellent . grad h: ranked . postdoc a: excellent . yeah . phd g: so another idea i w t had just now actually for the demo was whether it might be of interest to sh to show some of the prosody uh work that don 's been doing . professor b: mm - hmm . phd g: um actually show some of the features and then show for instance a task like finding sentence boundaries or finding turn boundaries . um , you know , you can show that graphically , sort of what the features are doing . it , you know , it does n't work great but it 's definitely giving us something . professor b: well i think at at the very least we 're gon na want something illustrative with that phd g: i do n't know if that would be of interest or not . professor b: cuz i 'm gon na want to talk about it and so i if there 's something that shows it graphically it 's much better than me just having a bullet point phd g: yeah . professor b: pointing at something i do n't know much about , phd g: i mean , you 're looking at this now professor b: so . phd g: are you looking at waves or matlab ? grad c: um yeah i 'm starting to and um yeah we can probably find some examples of different type of prosodic events going on . phd g: yeah def professor b: s so when we here were having this demo meeting , what we 're sort of coming up with is that we wan na have all these pieces together , to first order , by the end of the month phd g: i professor b: and then that 'll give us a week or so . grad c: ooo . the end of phd g: oh , the end of this month or next month ? oh , you mean like today ? grad h: this month . professor b: ju phd g: oh . professor b: june . june . june . phd g: next month . grad h: oh sorry , next month . grad c: yeah . phd g: sorry . grad h: today is n't june first , phd f: there 's another one . grad h: is it . professor b: uh that 'll that 'll give us that 'll give us a week or so to uh to port things over to my laptop and make sure that works , phd e: exactly . phd g: sorry . professor b: yeah . phd g: i think , i mean eh where grad c: yeah , i mean i 'll be here . phd g: yeah if d if don can sort of talk to whoever 's professor b: yeah . phd g: cuz we 're doing this anyway as part of our you know , the research , visualizing what these features are doing professor b: yeah . phd g: and so either it might not be integrated but it it could potentially be in it . professor b: yeah . well , this is to an audience of researchers phd g: could find some . professor b: so i mean , you know , to let s the goal is to let them know what it is we 're doing . phd g: i mean it 's different . professor b: so that 's phd g: i do n't think anyone has done this on meeting data so it might be neat , you know . professor b: yeah . good . done with that . xml tools ? grad h: um . so i 've been doing a bunch of xml tools where you we 're sort of moving to xml as the general format for everything and i think that 's definitely the right way to go because there are a lot of tools that let you do extraction and reformatting of xml tools . um . so yet again we should probably meet to talk about transcription formats in xml because i 'm not particularly happy with what we have now . i mean it works with transcriber but it it 's a pain to use it in other tools uh because it does n't mark start and end . phd f: start and end of each ? phd d: yeah . grad h: uh utterance . phd f: utterance . just marks ? grad h: so it 's implicit in in there phd f: yeah . grad h: but you have to do a lot of processing to get it . phd f: right . right . grad h: and so and also i 'd like to do the indirect time line business . um but regardless , i mean , w that 's something that you , me , and jane can talk about later . um , but i 've installed xml tools of various sorts in various languages and so if people are interested in doing extracting any information from any of these files , either uh information on users because the user database is that way i 'm converting the key files to xml so that you can extract m uh various inf uh sorted information on individual meetings grad c: cool . phd d: yeah . grad h: and then also the transcripts . and so l just let me know there it 's mostly java and perl but we can get other languages too if if that 's desirable . phd g: oh , quick question on that . is do we have the the seat information ? in in the key files now ? postdoc a: mm - hmm . grad h: the seat information is on the key files for the ones which postdoc a: ah . phd g: oh in for the new one grad h: it 's been recorded , phd g: ok . grad h: yeah . professor b: seat ? phd g: great . sea - yeah . grad h: where where you 're sitting . professor b: oh ! not not the quality or anything . no . phd d: n grad h: right . professor b: ok . i see . grad h: `` it 's pretty soft and squishy . `` professor b: yeah . yeah . phd g: alright . professor b: ok . phd g: ok . grad h: oh , but that might just be me . um . phd g: alright . professor b: that 's more seat information than we wanted . phd g: never mind . phd e: hmm . phd g: i 'm just trying to figure out , you know , when morgan 's voice appears on someone 's microphone are they next to him or are they across from him ? professor b: yeah . grad h: maybe we should bleep that out . professor b: mmm , yeah . phd f: wait a minute , professor b: yeah . phd f: how how w eh where is it in the key file ? grad h: right . the square bracket . phd g: cuz i mean i have n't been putting it in and in by grad h: you have n't been putting it in . phd g: right . postdoc a: well bu phd g: i have not . grad h: oh , ok . postdoc a: is n't it always on the digits ? professor b: some of these are missing . phd g: and professor b: are n't they ? postdoc a: is n't it always on the digits forms ? professor b: some fall out of phd g: well it grad h: yeah so we can go back and fill them in for the ones we have . grad c: ooo . phd g: i mean they 're on th right , these , but i just had n't ever been putting it in the key files . phd f: yeah i i never phd g: and i do n't think chuck was either phd f: i never knew we were supposed to put it in the key file . phd g: cuz grad h: i had told you guys about it phd f: oh really ? phd g: oh , so we 're both sorry . grad h: but phd g: so grad h: i mean this is why i wan na use a g a tool to do it rather than the plain text phd g: ok . phd f: ok . grad h: because with the plain text it 's very easy to skip those things . phd g: ok . grad h: so . um if you use the edit - key , or key - edit phd d: edit - key . grad h: i think it 's edit - key , { comment } command did i show you guys that ? phd d: yep . phd f: you mentioned it , grad h: i did show it to you , phd f: yeah . yeah . grad h: but i think you both said `` no , you 'll just use text file `` . phd f: text . grad h: um it has it in there , a place to fill it in . phd g: ok . phd f: ok . grad h: yeah , and so if you do n't fill it in , you 're not gon na get it in the meetings . phd g: so if right . well i i just realized i had n't been doing it grad h: so . phd g: and probably so grad h: yep . grad c: u grad h: yeah and then the other thing also that thilo noticed is , on the microphone , on channel zero it says hand - held mike or crown mike , phd g: yeah . right . grad h: you actually have to say which one . phd g: i know yeah , i usually delete the grad h: so . phd f: oh ! ok . i did n't do that either . phd g: i do n't , phd d: yeah . phd g: maybe i forgot to d phd f: takes me no time at all to edit these . phd g: but it 's almost yeah . grad h: yeah that 's cuz you kn phd f: i 'm not doing anything . grad h: i i know why . phd g: and i was i was looking at chuck 's , like , `` oh what did chuck do , ok i 'll do that `` . so . grad h: and then uh also in a couple of places instead of filling the participants under `` participants `` they were filled in under `` description `` . professor b: ah , ok . phd g: uh grad h: and so that 's also a problem . so anyway . phd g: we will do better . grad h: that 's it . oh uh also i 'm working on another version of this tool , the the one that shows up here , { comment } that will flash yellow if the mike is n't connected . and it 's not quite ready to go yet because um it 's hard to tell whether the mike 's connected or not because the best quality ones , the crown ones , { comment } are about the same level if they 're off and no one 's o off or if they 're on and no one 's talking . grad c: huh . grad h: um these these ones , they are much easier , there 's a bigger difference . so i 'm working on that and it it sorta works and so eventually we will change to that and then you 'll be able to see graphically if your mike is dropping in or out . grad c: will that also include like batteries dying ? just a any time the mike 's putting out zeros basically . grad h: yep . yep . yep . phd f: but with the screensaver kicking in , it phd d: but grad h: now phd d: y yeah . grad c: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad h: well i 'll turn off the screensaver too . grad c: oops . speaking of which . grad h: um the other thing is as i 've said before , it is actually on the thing . there 's a little level meter but of course no one ever pays attention to it . so i think having it on the screen is more easy to notice . postdoc a: it would be nice if if these had little light indicators , little l e ds for grad h: uh buzzer . postdoc a: yeah , a buzzer . grad h: `` bamp , bamp ! `` professor b: small shocks postdoc a: yeah . actually professor b: administered to the ok . oh grad h: ok , disk backup , et cetera ? um i spoke with dave johnson about putting all the meeting recorder stuff on non - backed - up disk to save the overhead of backup and he pretty much said `` yeah , you could do that if you want `` but he thought it was a bad idea . in fact what he said is doing the manual one , { comment } doing uh nw archive to copy it { comment } is a good idea and we should do that and have it backed up . he w he 's a firm believer in in lots of different modalities of backup . i mean , his point was well taken . this data can not be recovered . phd g: yeah . grad h: and so if a mistake is made and we lose the backup we should have the archive and if then a mistake is made and we lose the archive we should have the backup . professor b: well i guess it is true that even with something that 's backed up it 's not gon na if it 's stationary it 's not going to go through the increment it 's not gon na burden things in the incremental backups . grad h: just just the monthly full . postdoc a: hmm . professor b: yeah , so the monthly full will be a bear but grad h: yeah . but he said that that we sh should n't worry too much about that , that we 're getting a new backup system and we 're far enough away from saturation on full backups that it 's w probably ok . professor b: really ? grad h: and uh , so the only issue here is the timing between getting more disks and uh recording meetings . professor b: so i guess the idea is that we would be reserving the non - backed - up space for things that took less than twenty - four hours to recreate or something like that , right ? grad h: things that are recreatable easily and also yeah , basically things that are recreatable . professor b: yeah . yeah . grad h: the expanded files and things like that . professor b: ok . grad h: they take up a lot more room anyway . professor b: yeah . grad h: uh but we do need more disk . professor b: so we can get more disk . yeah . so . grad h: yeah . and i i think i agree with him . i mean his point was well taken that if we lose one of these we can not get it back . professor b: ok . grad h: i do n't think there was any other et cetera there . professor b: well i was allowing someone else to come up with something related that they had uh phd e: i thought you guys were gon na burn c ds ? grad h: um unfortunately we could burn c ds but first of all it 's a pain . phd e: yeah . grad h: because you have to copy it down to the pc and then burn it and that 's a multi - step procedure . and second of all the the write - once burners as opposed to a professional press do n't last . phd e: yeah . grad h: so i think burning them for distribution is fine but burning them for backup is not a good idea . phd e: i see . ok . grad h: cuz th they they fail after a couple years . phd e: alright . postdoc a: i do have uh uh it 's a different topic . can i add one top topic ? we have time ? i wanted to ask , i know that uh that thilo you were , um , bringing the channeltrans interface onto the windows machine ? and i wanted to know is th phd d: yeah it 's it basically it 's done , postdoc a: it 's all done ? that 's g wonderful . great . phd d: yeah . yeah . grad h: yes , since tcl - tk runs on it , basically things 'll just work . phd d: yeah it yeah , it was just a problem with the snack version and the transcriber version but it 's solved . postdoc a: does and that does that mean , i phd d: so . postdoc a: maybe i should know this but i do n't . does this mean that the that this could be por uh ported to a think - pad note or some other type of uh phd d: yeah , basically uh i did install it on my laptop and yeah postdoc a: wonderful . phd d: it worked . postdoc a: wonderful . professor b: hmm ! good . crosspads ? crosspads ? grad h: uh got an email from uh james landay who basically said `` if you 're not using them , could you return them ? `` so he said he does n't need them , he just periodically w at the end of each term sends out email to everyone who was recorded as having them and asks them if they 're still using them . professor b: so we 've never used them . postdoc a: we used them once . professor b: once ? grad h: we we used them a couple times , postdoc a: mm - hmm . couple times . phd f: them ? there 's more than one ? grad h: but postdoc a: yeah . professor b: i grad h: yeah , we have two . um . professor b: but grad h: my opinion on it is , first , i never take notes anyway so i 'm not gon na use it , um and second , it 's another level of infrastructure that we have to deal with . postdoc a: and i have uh so my my feeling on it is that i think in principle it 's a really nice idea , and you have the time tags which makes it better tha than just taking ra raw notes . on the other hand , i the down side for me was that i think the pen is really noisy . so you have ka kaplunk , kaplunk , kaplunk . and i and i do n't know if it 's audible on the but i i sort of thought that was a disadvantage . i do take notes , i mean , i could be taking notes on these things and i guess the plus with the crosspads would be the time markings but i do n't know . phd d: uh , what is a crosspad ? professor b: so it 's it 's um it 's a regular pad , just a regular pad of paper but there 's this pen which indicates position . grad c: thank you . professor b: and so you have time and position stuff stored phd d: ok . professor b: so that you can you have a record of whatever it is you 've written . phd d: ok . grad h: and then you can download it and they have ocr and searching and all sorts of things . phd d: ok . ok . grad h: so i if you take notes it 's a great little device . postdoc a: could mm - hmm . grad h: but i do n't take notes , professor b: and one of the reasons that it was brought up originally was because uh we were interested in in higher - level things , grad h: so . professor b: not just the , you know , microphone stuff but also summarization and so forth and the question is if you were going to go to some gold standard of what wa what was it that happened in the meeting you know , where would it come from ? and um i think that was one of the things , phd d: yeah . phd g: yeah . grad h: yep . professor b: right ? and so the it seemed like a neat idea . we 'll have a you know , have a scribe , have somebody uh take good notes and then that 's part of the record of the meeting . and then we did it once or twice and we sort of grad h: yep , and then just sort of died out . professor b: probably chose the wrong scribe but it was it 's uh phd g: i mean grad h: yeah that 's right . postdoc a: well i did it one time grad h: yep . postdoc a: but um professor b: yeah . postdoc a: u but i guess the the other thing i 'm thinking is if we wanted that kind of thing i wonder if we 'd lose that much by having someone be a scribe by listening to the tape , to the recording afterwards and taking notes in some other interface . phd f: i mean we 're transcribing it anyways , why do we need notes ? postdoc a: oh it 's la it 's useful , grad h: because that 's summary . postdoc a: have a summary and high points . professor b: summary . phd g: i think there 's also there 's this use that phd f: summarize it from the transcription . phd g: the well , what if you 're sitting there and you just wan na make an x and you do n't wan na take notes and you 're you just wan na phd f: doodle . phd g: get the summary of the transcript from this time location like you know , and and then while you 're bored you do n't do anything and once in a while , maybe there 's a joke and you put a x and { comment } but in in other words you can use that just to highlight times in a very simple way . also with i was thinking and i know morgan disagrees with me on this but suppose you have a group in here and you wan na let them note whenever they think there might be something later that they might not wan na distribute in terms of content , they could just sort of make an x near that point or a question mark that sort of alerts them that when they get the transcript back they c could get some red flags in that transcript region and they can then look at it . so . i know we have n't been using it but i w i can imagine it being useful just for sort of marking time periods grad h: right . phd g: which you then get back in a transcript postdoc a: well . professor b: i guess so , you know , what what makes one think i is maybe we should actually schedule some periods where people go over something later phd g: so . professor b: and and and put some kind of summary or something uh you know , some there 'd be some scribe who would actually listen , w who 'd agreed to actually listen to the whole thing , not transcribe it , but just sort of write down things that struck them as important . but then you do n't you do n't have the time reference uh that you 'd have if you had it live . phd g: right . and you do n't have a lot of other cues that might be useful , professor b: yeah . phd f: how do you synchronize the time in the crosspad and the time of the recording ? phd g: so . grad h: i mean that was one of the issues we talked about originally and that that 's w part of the difficulty is that we need an infrastructure for using the time the crosspads and so that means synchronizing the time phd g: postdoc a: mm - hmm . grad h: you know you want it pretty close and there 's a fair amount of skew because it 's a hand - held unit with a battery postdoc a: well when when i d grad h: and so you postdoc a: ok . grad h: so you have to synchronize at the beginning of each meeting all the pads that are being used , so that it 's synchronized with the time on that and then you have to download to an application , and then you have to figure out what the data formats are and convert it over if you wan na do anything with this information . postdoc a: w mm - hmm . phd e: why grad h: and so there 's a lot of infrastructure which postdoc a: there is an alternative . grad h: unless someone postdoc a: there is an alternative , i mean , it 's still , there 's uh you know , your point stands about there be needing to be an infrastructure , but it does n't have to be synchronized with the little clock 's timer on it . you c i mean , i when i when i did it i synchronized it by voice , by whispering `` one , two , three , four `` onto the microphone grad h: hmm . postdoc a: and uh , you know . grad h: well , but then there 's the infrastructure at the other end phd e: right . grad h: which someone has to listen to that and find that point , postdoc a: yeah , it 's transcribed . it 's in the transcript . grad h: and then mark it . postdoc a: yeah . grad h: so . postdoc a: well it 's in the transcript . phd g: well , could we keep one of these things for another year ? would h i mean is there a big cau grad h: we can keep all both of them for the whole whole year . phd g: just just in case we grad h: i mean , it 's just phd g: even maybe some of the transcribers who might be wanting to annotate uh f just there 's a bunch of things that might be neat to do but i it might not be the case that we can actually synchronize them and then do all the infrastructure but we could at least try it out . professor b: well one thing that we might try um is on some set of meetings , some collection of meetings , maybe edu is the right one or maybe something else , we we get somebody to buy into the idea of doing this as part of the task . i mean , phd g: right . professor b: uh part of the reason i think part of the reason that adam was so interested in uh the speechcorder sort of f idea from the beginning is he said from the beginning he hated taking notes and grad h: yep . professor b: and so forth so and and jane is more into it but eh uh you know i do n't know if you wan na really do do this all the time so i think the thing is to to get someone to actually buy into it and have at least some series of meetings where we do it . um and if so , it 's probably worth having one . the p the the problem with the the more extended view , all these other you know with uh quibbling about particular applications of it is that it looks like it 's hard to get people to um uh routinely use it , i mean it just has n't happened anyway . but maybe if we can get a person to phd g: yeah i do n't think it has to be part of a what everybody does in a meeting but it might be a useful , neat part of the project that we can , you know , show off as a mechanism for synchronizing events in time that happen that you just wan na make a note of , like what jane was talking about with some later browsing , just just as a convenience , even if it 's not a full - blown note taking substitute . phd e: well if you wanted to do that maybe the right architecture for it is to get a pda with a wireless card . and and that way you can synchronize very easily with the the the meeting because you 'll be synchroni you can synchronize with the the linux server and uh phd g: so what kind of input would you be ? phd e: so so , i mean , if you 're not worried about grad h: buttons . phd g: you 'd just be pressing like a a phd e: well well you have a pda and may and you could have the same sort of x interface or whatever , i mean , you 'd have to do a little eh a little bit of coding to do it . phd g: mm - hmm . phd e: but you could imagine , phd g: yeah , that be good . phd e: i mean , if if all you really wanted was you did n't want this secondary note - taking channel but just sort of being able to use m markers of some sort , a pda with a l a wireless card would be the probably the right way to go . i mean even buttons you could do , sort of , i mean , as you said . grad h: i mean for what what you 've been describing buttons would be even more convenient than anything else , phd g: m right . phd e: right . phd g: that would be fine too . grad h: right ? you have the phd g: i mean , i do n't have , you know , grandiose ideas in mind but i 'm just sort of thinking well we 've we 're getting into the next year now and we have a lot of these things worked out at in terms of the speech maybe somebody will be interested in this and postdoc a: i like this pda idea . yeah . professor b: yeah , i do like the idea of having a couple buttons phd g: yeah . grad h: well i 'm sure there would postdoc a: yeah . professor b: where like one one button was `` uh - oh `` and then another button was `` that 's great `` and another button `` that 's f `` phd g: or like this is my `` i 'm supposed to do this `` kind of button , postdoc a: yeah . phd g: like `` i better remember to `` grad h: action item . phd g: yeah something like that or postdoc a: and then grad h: i mean i think the crosspad idea is a good one . postdoc a: uh - huh . grad h: it 's just a question of getting people to use it and getting the infrastructure set up in such a way that it 's not a lot of extra work . i mean that 's part of the reason why it has n't happened is that it 's been a lot of extra work for me phd g: yeah . professor b: right . postdoc a: well , and not just for you . grad h: and postdoc a: but it 's also , it has this problem of having to go from an analog to a d a digital record too , phd g: w postdoc a: does n't it ? i mean grad h: well it 's digital but it 's in a format that is not particularly standard . postdoc a: but i mean , say , if i if if you 're writing if you 're writing notes in it does it it ca n't do handwriting recognition , right ? professor b: no , no , but it 's just it 's just storing the pixel informa position information , postdoc a: ok . professor b: it 's all digital . postdoc a: i i guess what i 'm thinking is that the pda solution you h you have it already without needing to go from the pixelization to a to a i mean professor b: right . you do n't have to phd e: the transfer function is less errorful , postdoc a: oh , nicely put . professor b: yeah . phd e: yes . phd g: yeah , yeah . professor b: yeah . yeah . phd g: well it also it 's maybe realistic cuz people are supposed to be bringing their p d as to the meeting eventually , right ? that 's why we have this little i do n't know what i do n't wan na cause more work for anyone but i can imagine some interesting things that you could do with it and so if we do n't have to return it and we can keep it for a year i do n't know . grad h: well w we do n't we certainly do n't have to return it , as i said . all all he said is that if you 're not using it could you return it , if you are using it feel free to keep it . the point is that we have n't used it at all and are we going to ? professor b: so we have no but uh by i i would suggest you return one . because we we you know , we we have n't used it at all . phd g: yeah . grad h: ok . phd g: we c professor b: we have some aspirations of using them phd g: one would probably be fine . professor b: and phd g: maybe we could do like a student project , you know , maybe someone who wants to do this as their main like s project for something would be cool . professor b: yeah . grad h: yep . i mean if we had them out and sitting on the table people might use them a little more professor b: maybe jeremy could sit in some meetings and press a button when there when when somebody laughed . grad h: although there is a little phd g: well , i 'm yeah , that 's not a bad professor b: yeah , yeah . yeah . phd g: jeremy 's gon na be an he 's a new student starting on modeling brea breath and laughter , actually , which sounds funny but i think it should be cool , professor b: yeah . phd g: so . grad h: sounds breathy to me . phd g: ok . `` ha - ha - ha . `` grad h: breath and lau `` ha - ha - ha - ha `` . `` ha - ha - ha - ha . `` professor b: well dear . grad h: um . professor b: hmm . grad h: that reminded me of something . oh well , too late . it slipped out . professor b: ok . phd g: you 're you 're gon na tease me ? grad h: oh , equipment . phd g: ok . grad h: ordered uh , well i 'm always gon na do that . w uh { comment } we ordered uh more wireless , and so they should be coming in at some point . phd g: great . grad h: and then at the same time i 'll probably rewire the room as per jane 's suggestion so that uh the first n channels are wireless , eh are the m the close - talking and the next n are far - field . professor b: you know what he means but is n't that funny sounding ? `` we ordered more wireless . `` it 's like wires are the things so you 're wiring you 're you 're you we 're we ordered more absence of the thing . phd g: that 's a very philosophical statement from morgan . grad h: wired less , wired more . phd g: i just it 's sort of a anachronism , i mean it 's like it 's great . professor b: anyway . grad h: should we do digits ? do we have anything else ? professor b: yeah . postdoc a: ok . professor b: i mean there 's there 's all this stuff going on uh between uh andreas and and and dave and chuck and others with various kinds of runs uh um recognition runs , trying to figure things out about the features but it 's it 's all sort of in process , so there 's not much to say right now . uh why do n't we start with our our esteemed guest . phd e: ok . alright . grad h: so just the transcript number and then the then the phd e: this is yes , this is number two for me today . professor b: see all you have to do is go away to move way up in the phd e: oh . phd g: we could do simultaneous . initiate him . professor b: we we could . grad h: should we do simultaneous ? phd g: well , i 'm just thinking , are you gon na try to save the data before this next group comes in ? professor b: yeah . grad h: yeah , absolutely . phd g: yeah , so we might wan na do it simultaneous . grad h: i mean you hav sorta have to . professor b: well ok , so let 's do one of those simultaneous ones . phd g: right , so so we might n we might need to do that actually . professor b: that sounds good . grad h: ok . phd e: ok . professor b: everybody ready ? postdoc a: yeah . professor b: a one . phd g: you have to plug your ears , by the way uh eric , grad h: well i have to , phd d: you do n't have to . phd e: ok , alright . phd g: or or you start laughing . grad h: i do n't know about other people . professor b: ok , a one and a two and a three . ok , babble , take five .

the team agreed that it was important to keep good backups . their main concern was the time difference between getting more disks and recording new meetings . they did not want to rely on burning cd 's at all because of potential loss of data . they also started discussing whether it would be a good idea to collect meeting notes from the participants as well , but that would entail installing new infrastructure .

what did grad h think about using xml tools ? </s> phd e: yeah . professor b: um , so . if we ca n't , we ca n't . but uh we 're gon na try to make this an abbreviated meeting cuz the the next next occupants were pushing for it , so . um . so . agenda is according to this , is transcription status , darpa demos xml tools , disks , backups , et cetera and grad h: does anyone have anything to add to the agenda ? professor b: ok . should we just go in order ? transcription status ? who 's that 's probably you . postdoc a: i can do that quickly . um i hired several more transcribers , they 're making great progress . professor b: seven ? postdoc a: seve - several , several . professor b: oh . postdoc a: and uh and uh , uh i 've been uh finishing up the uh double checking . i hoped to have had that done by today but it 's gon na take one more week . grad h: um phd d: i g grad h: as a somewhat segue into the next topic , um could i get a hold of uh the data even if it 's not really corrected yet just so i can get the data formats and make sure the information retrieval stuff is working ? postdoc a: certainly . yeah i mean , it 's in the same place it 's been . grad h: so can you just oh , it is . postdoc a: uh - huh . no change . grad h: ok . just so , `` transcripts `` is the sub - directory ? postdoc a: uh yes . uh - huh . grad h: ok . so i 'll i 'll probably just make some copies of those rather than use the ones that are there . postdoc a: ok . grad h: um and then just we 'll have to remember to delete them once the corrections are made . postdoc a: ok . professor b: ok , wh phd d: i also got anot a short remark to the transcription . i 've uh just processed the first five edu meetings and they are chunked up so they would they probably can be sent to ibm whenever they want them . grad c: cool . phd f: well the second one of those phd d: yep . it 's already at ibm , phd f: is already at ibm . phd d: but the other ones phd f: that 's the one that we 're waiting to hear from them on . phd d: yeah . yeah . postdoc a: ok . phd f: yeah . postdoc a: these are separate from the ones that phd f: as soon as postdoc a: i mean , these are phd f: they 're the ibm set . phd d: yep . grad h: it 's this one . postdoc a: excellent . good . phd f: yeah . and so as soon as we hear from brian that this one is ok grad h: is my mike on ? yeah . phd f: and we get the transcript back and we find out that hopefully there are no problems matching up the transcript with what we gave them , then uh we 'll be ready to go and we 'll just send them the next four as a big batch , postdoc a: excellent . phd f: and let them work on that . grad h: and so we 're doing those as disjoint from the ones we 're transcribing here ? phd f: yes , exactly . grad h: ok , good . phd f: we 're sort of doing things in parallel , that way we can get as much done a at once . grad h: yeah , i think that 's the right way to do it , phd f: yeah . grad h: especially for the information retrieval stuff . anything else on transcription status ? postdoc a: hm - mmm . grad h: ok . professor b: darpa demos , we had the submeeting the other day . grad h: right , which uh so i 've been working on using the thisl tools to do information retrieval on meeting data and the thisl tools are there 're two sets , there 's a back - end and a front - end , so the front - end is the user interface and the back - end is the indexing tool and the querying tool . and so i 've written some tools to convert everything into the right for file formats . and the command line version of the indexing and the querying is now working . so at least on the one meeting that i had the transcript for uh conveniently you can now do information retrieval on it , do type in a a string and get back a list of start - end times for the meeting , phd f: what what kind of uh what does that look like ? the string that you type in . grad h: uh of hits . phd f: what are you are you are they keywords , or are they ? grad h: keywords . phd f: ok . i see . grad h: right ? and so and then it munges it to pass it to the thisl ir which uses an sgml - like format for everything . phd f: i see . professor b: and then does it play something back or that 's something you 're having to program ? grad h: um , right now , i have a tool that will do that on a command line using our standard tools , professor b: yeah . grad h: but my intention is to do a prettier user interface based either so so that 's the other thing i wanted to discuss , is well what should we do for the user interface ? we have two tools that have already been written . um the softsound guys did a web - based one , professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: um , which i have n't used , have n't looked at . dan says it 's pretty good professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: but it does mean you need to be running a web server . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: and so it it 's pretty big and complex . uh and it would be difficult to port to windows because it means porting the web server to windows . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: uh the other option is dan did the tcl - tk thisl gui front - end for broadcast news professor b: yeah . grad h: which i think looks great . i think that 's a nice demo . um and that would be much easier to port to windows . and so i think that 's the way we should go . postdoc a: i can i ask a question ? so um as it stands within the the channeltrans interface , it 's possible to do a find and a play . grad h: mm - hmm . postdoc a: you can find a searched string and play . so e are you so you 're adding like um , i do n't know , uh are they fuzzy matches or are they uh ? grad h: it 's a sort of standard , text - retrieval - based so it 's uh term frequency , inverse document frequency scoring . postdoc a: ok . grad h: um and then there are all sorts of metrics for spacing how far apart they have to be and things like that . so it it 's postdoc a: it 's a lot more sophisticated than the uh the basically windows - based grad h: i it 's like doing a google query or anyth anything else like that . postdoc a: ok . grad h: so i it uses so it pr produces an index ahead of time so you do n't you 're not doing a linear search through all the documents . cuz you can imagine if with if we have the sixty hours ' worth you do would n't wan na do a search . postdoc a: hm - mmm . good . grad h: um you have to do preindexing and so that these tools do all that . and so the work to get the front - end to work would be porting it well uh to get it to work on the unix systems , our side is just rewriting them and modifying them to work for meetings . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: so that it understands that they 're different speakers and that it 's one big audio file instead of a bunch of little ones and just sorta things like that . professor b: mm - hmm . phd g: mm - hmm . phd f: so what does the user see as the result of the query ? grad h: on which tool ? phd f: thisl . grad h: the thisl gui tool which is the one that dan wrote , tcl - tk phd f: yeah . grad h: um you type in a query and then you get back a list of hits and you can type on them and listen to them . click on them rather { comment } with a mouse . phd f: ah . professor b: mmm phd f: so if you typed in `` small heads `` or something you could grad h: right , you 'd get phd f: get back a uh uh { comment } something that would let you click and listen to some audio where that phrase had occurred grad h: something you you 'd get to listen to `` beep `` . phd f: or some professor b: that was a really good look . it 's too bad that that could n't come into the grad h: you could n't get a video . phd g: guess who i practice on ? postdoc a: at some point we 're gon na have to say what that private joke is , that keeps coming up . professor b: yeah . and then again , maybe not . so , uh yeah , that soun that sounds reasonable . yeah , it loo it my my recollection of it is it 's it 's a pretty reasonable uh demo sort of format . grad h: right . phd f: yeah that sounds good . grad h: and so i think there 'd be minimal effort to get it to work , minimally phd f: that sounds really neat . grad h: and then we 'd wan na add things like query by speaker and by meeting and all that sort of stuff . um dave gelbart expressed some interest in working on that so i 'll work with him on it . and it it 's looking pretty good , you know , the fact that i got the query system working . so if we wan na just do a video - based one i think that 'll be easy . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: if we wan na get it to windows it 's gon na be a little more work because the thisl ir , the information retrieval tool 's um , i had difficulty just compiling them on solaris . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: so getting them to compile on windows might be challenging . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: but you were saying that that the uh that there 's that set of tools , uh , cygnus tools , that grad h: so . it certainly helps . phd f: uh - huh . grad h: um , i mean without those i would n't even attempt it . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: yeah . grad h: but what those they what those do is provide sort of a bsd compatibility layer , professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: so that the normal unix function calls all work . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: and you have to have all the o grad h: um , but the problem is that that the thisl tools did n't use anything like autoconf and so you have the normal porting problems of different header files and th some things are defined and some things are n't and uh different compiler work - arounds and so on . so the fact that um it took me a day to get it c to compile under solaris means it 's probably gon na take me s significantly more than that to get it to compile under windows . professor b: how about having it run under free bsd ? phd e: well what you need grad h: free bsd would probably be easier . phd e: all you need to do is say to dan `` gee it would be nice if this worked under autoconf `` and it 'll be done in a day . grad h: that 's true . phd d: uh phd e: right ? grad h: actually you know i should check because he did port it to sprachcore phd e: right . grad h: so he might have done that already . phd e: i i i would n't be surprised . professor b: so grad h: i 'll check at that professor b: but it would what would serve would serve both purposes , is if you contact him and ask him if he 's already done it . phd e: what i phd f: how does it play ? grad h: yeah , right . professor b: if he has then you learn , if he has n't then he 'll do it . grad h: right . postdoc a: wow . phd f: i hope he never listens to these meetings . grad h: that 's right . so , and i 've been corresponding with dan and also with uh uh , softsound guy , uh postdoc a: it 's amazing . professor b: yeah . grad h: blanking on his name . professor b: tony robinson ? phd f: tony robinson ? grad h: do i mean tony ? i guess i do . professor b: yeah . phd e: james christie . grad h: or s or steve renals . professor b: steve renal - steve renals . grad h: which one do i mean ? phd e: steve renals is not softsound , is he ? professor b: no . grad h: my brain is not working , professor b: ok . grad h: i do n't remember who i 've been corresponding with . phd e: steve wro i it 's ste - steve renals wrote thisl ir . grad h: then it 's steve renals . professor b: oh , ok . phd e: ok . grad h: so uh just getting documentation and uh and f and formats , professor b: yeah . grad h: so that 's all going pretty well , professor b: assuming we 're phd e: right . phd f: what about issues of playing sound files @ @ between the two platforms ? grad h: i think we 'll be ok with that . um we have well , that 's a good point too . phd e: here 's a here 's a crazy idea actually . grad h: i do n't know . phd e: why do n't you try and merge transcriber and thisl ir ? they 're both tcl interfaces . grad h: well this is one of the reasons this is the one of the reasons that i 'm gon na have uh dave gelbart gelbart having him volunteer to work on it is a really good thing because he 's worked on the transcriber stuff phd e: right . grad h: and he 's more familiar with tcl - tk than i am . phd e: and then you get they then you get the windows media playing for free . grad h: well that 's snack , not not transcriber . phd e: right . but the point is that the transcriber uses snack and then you can but you can use a a lot of the same functionality and it 's grad h: yeah , yeah , i mean , i i think thisl thisl gui probably uses snack . and so my intention was just to base it on that . phd e: yeah . well my thought was is that it would be nice it would be nice to have the running transcripts um eh you know , from speaker to speaker . grad h: and if it does n't phd e: right ? do you have you have , you know , a speaker mark here and a speaker mark here ? grad h: right , we 'll have to figure out a user interface for that , so . phd e: right . well that eh my thought was if you had like multitrans or whatever do it . or whatever . grad h: yeah . it might be fairly difficult to get that to work in { comment } the little short segments we 'd be talking about and having the search tools and so on . we we can look into it , phd e: yeah . grad h: but professor b: the thing i was asking about with , um , free bsd is that it might be easier to get powerpoint shows running in free bsd than to get this other package running in grad h: yeah , i mean we have to i have to sit down and try it before i make too many judgments , professor b: yeah . grad h: so uh um my experience with the gnu compatibility library is really it 's just as hard and just as easy to port to any system . right ? the windows system is n't any harder because it it looks like a bsd system . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: it 's just , you know , just like all of them , the `` include `` files are a little different and the function calls are a little different . professor b: right . grad h: so i it might be a little easier but it 's not gon na be a lot easier . professor b: ok . so there was that demo , which was one of the main ones , then we talked about um some other stuff which would basically be um showing off the the transcriber interface itself and as you say , maybe we could even merge those in some sense , but but um , uh and part of that was showing off what the speech - non uh nonspeech { comment } stuff that thilo has done s looks like . phd d: yeah . postdoc a: can i ask one more thing about thisl ? so with the ir stuff then you end up with a somewhat prioritized um ? grad h: mm - hmm . mm - hmm , postdoc a: excellent . grad h: ranked . postdoc a: excellent . yeah . phd g: so another idea i w t had just now actually for the demo was whether it might be of interest to sh to show some of the prosody uh work that don 's been doing . professor b: mm - hmm . phd g: um actually show some of the features and then show for instance a task like finding sentence boundaries or finding turn boundaries . um , you know , you can show that graphically , sort of what the features are doing . it , you know , it does n't work great but it 's definitely giving us something . professor b: well i think at at the very least we 're gon na want something illustrative with that phd g: i do n't know if that would be of interest or not . professor b: cuz i 'm gon na want to talk about it and so i if there 's something that shows it graphically it 's much better than me just having a bullet point phd g: yeah . professor b: pointing at something i do n't know much about , phd g: i mean , you 're looking at this now professor b: so . phd g: are you looking at waves or matlab ? grad c: um yeah i 'm starting to and um yeah we can probably find some examples of different type of prosodic events going on . phd g: yeah def professor b: s so when we here were having this demo meeting , what we 're sort of coming up with is that we wan na have all these pieces together , to first order , by the end of the month phd g: i professor b: and then that 'll give us a week or so . grad c: ooo . the end of phd g: oh , the end of this month or next month ? oh , you mean like today ? grad h: this month . professor b: ju phd g: oh . professor b: june . june . june . phd g: next month . grad h: oh sorry , next month . grad c: yeah . phd g: sorry . grad h: today is n't june first , phd f: there 's another one . grad h: is it . professor b: uh that 'll that 'll give us that 'll give us a week or so to uh to port things over to my laptop and make sure that works , phd e: exactly . phd g: sorry . professor b: yeah . phd g: i think , i mean eh where grad c: yeah , i mean i 'll be here . phd g: yeah if d if don can sort of talk to whoever 's professor b: yeah . phd g: cuz we 're doing this anyway as part of our you know , the research , visualizing what these features are doing professor b: yeah . phd g: and so either it might not be integrated but it it could potentially be in it . professor b: yeah . well , this is to an audience of researchers phd g: could find some . professor b: so i mean , you know , to let s the goal is to let them know what it is we 're doing . phd g: i mean it 's different . professor b: so that 's phd g: i do n't think anyone has done this on meeting data so it might be neat , you know . professor b: yeah . good . done with that . xml tools ? grad h: um . so i 've been doing a bunch of xml tools where you we 're sort of moving to xml as the general format for everything and i think that 's definitely the right way to go because there are a lot of tools that let you do extraction and reformatting of xml tools . um . so yet again we should probably meet to talk about transcription formats in xml because i 'm not particularly happy with what we have now . i mean it works with transcriber but it it 's a pain to use it in other tools uh because it does n't mark start and end . phd f: start and end of each ? phd d: yeah . grad h: uh utterance . phd f: utterance . just marks ? grad h: so it 's implicit in in there phd f: yeah . grad h: but you have to do a lot of processing to get it . phd f: right . right . grad h: and so and also i 'd like to do the indirect time line business . um but regardless , i mean , w that 's something that you , me , and jane can talk about later . um , but i 've installed xml tools of various sorts in various languages and so if people are interested in doing extracting any information from any of these files , either uh information on users because the user database is that way i 'm converting the key files to xml so that you can extract m uh various inf uh sorted information on individual meetings grad c: cool . phd d: yeah . grad h: and then also the transcripts . and so l just let me know there it 's mostly java and perl but we can get other languages too if if that 's desirable . phd g: oh , quick question on that . is do we have the the seat information ? in in the key files now ? postdoc a: mm - hmm . grad h: the seat information is on the key files for the ones which postdoc a: ah . phd g: oh in for the new one grad h: it 's been recorded , phd g: ok . grad h: yeah . professor b: seat ? phd g: great . sea - yeah . grad h: where where you 're sitting . professor b: oh ! not not the quality or anything . no . phd d: n grad h: right . professor b: ok . i see . grad h: `` it 's pretty soft and squishy . `` professor b: yeah . yeah . phd g: alright . professor b: ok . phd g: ok . grad h: oh , but that might just be me . um . phd g: alright . professor b: that 's more seat information than we wanted . phd g: never mind . phd e: hmm . phd g: i 'm just trying to figure out , you know , when morgan 's voice appears on someone 's microphone are they next to him or are they across from him ? professor b: yeah . grad h: maybe we should bleep that out . professor b: mmm , yeah . phd f: wait a minute , professor b: yeah . phd f: how how w eh where is it in the key file ? grad h: right . the square bracket . phd g: cuz i mean i have n't been putting it in and in by grad h: you have n't been putting it in . phd g: right . postdoc a: well bu phd g: i have not . grad h: oh , ok . postdoc a: is n't it always on the digits ? professor b: some of these are missing . phd g: and professor b: are n't they ? postdoc a: is n't it always on the digits forms ? professor b: some fall out of phd g: well it grad h: yeah so we can go back and fill them in for the ones we have . grad c: ooo . phd g: i mean they 're on th right , these , but i just had n't ever been putting it in the key files . phd f: yeah i i never phd g: and i do n't think chuck was either phd f: i never knew we were supposed to put it in the key file . phd g: cuz grad h: i had told you guys about it phd f: oh really ? phd g: oh , so we 're both sorry . grad h: but phd g: so grad h: i mean this is why i wan na use a g a tool to do it rather than the plain text phd g: ok . phd f: ok . grad h: because with the plain text it 's very easy to skip those things . phd g: ok . grad h: so . um if you use the edit - key , or key - edit phd d: edit - key . grad h: i think it 's edit - key , { comment } command did i show you guys that ? phd d: yep . phd f: you mentioned it , grad h: i did show it to you , phd f: yeah . yeah . grad h: but i think you both said `` no , you 'll just use text file `` . phd f: text . grad h: um it has it in there , a place to fill it in . phd g: ok . phd f: ok . grad h: yeah , and so if you do n't fill it in , you 're not gon na get it in the meetings . phd g: so if right . well i i just realized i had n't been doing it grad h: so . phd g: and probably so grad h: yep . grad c: u grad h: yeah and then the other thing also that thilo noticed is , on the microphone , on channel zero it says hand - held mike or crown mike , phd g: yeah . right . grad h: you actually have to say which one . phd g: i know yeah , i usually delete the grad h: so . phd f: oh ! ok . i did n't do that either . phd g: i do n't , phd d: yeah . phd g: maybe i forgot to d phd f: takes me no time at all to edit these . phd g: but it 's almost yeah . grad h: yeah that 's cuz you kn phd f: i 'm not doing anything . grad h: i i know why . phd g: and i was i was looking at chuck 's , like , `` oh what did chuck do , ok i 'll do that `` . so . grad h: and then uh also in a couple of places instead of filling the participants under `` participants `` they were filled in under `` description `` . professor b: ah , ok . phd g: uh grad h: and so that 's also a problem . so anyway . phd g: we will do better . grad h: that 's it . oh uh also i 'm working on another version of this tool , the the one that shows up here , { comment } that will flash yellow if the mike is n't connected . and it 's not quite ready to go yet because um it 's hard to tell whether the mike 's connected or not because the best quality ones , the crown ones , { comment } are about the same level if they 're off and no one 's o off or if they 're on and no one 's talking . grad c: huh . grad h: um these these ones , they are much easier , there 's a bigger difference . so i 'm working on that and it it sorta works and so eventually we will change to that and then you 'll be able to see graphically if your mike is dropping in or out . grad c: will that also include like batteries dying ? just a any time the mike 's putting out zeros basically . grad h: yep . yep . yep . phd f: but with the screensaver kicking in , it phd d: but grad h: now phd d: y yeah . grad c: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad h: well i 'll turn off the screensaver too . grad c: oops . speaking of which . grad h: um the other thing is as i 've said before , it is actually on the thing . there 's a little level meter but of course no one ever pays attention to it . so i think having it on the screen is more easy to notice . postdoc a: it would be nice if if these had little light indicators , little l e ds for grad h: uh buzzer . postdoc a: yeah , a buzzer . grad h: `` bamp , bamp ! `` professor b: small shocks postdoc a: yeah . actually professor b: administered to the ok . oh grad h: ok , disk backup , et cetera ? um i spoke with dave johnson about putting all the meeting recorder stuff on non - backed - up disk to save the overhead of backup and he pretty much said `` yeah , you could do that if you want `` but he thought it was a bad idea . in fact what he said is doing the manual one , { comment } doing uh nw archive to copy it { comment } is a good idea and we should do that and have it backed up . he w he 's a firm believer in in lots of different modalities of backup . i mean , his point was well taken . this data can not be recovered . phd g: yeah . grad h: and so if a mistake is made and we lose the backup we should have the archive and if then a mistake is made and we lose the archive we should have the backup . professor b: well i guess it is true that even with something that 's backed up it 's not gon na if it 's stationary it 's not going to go through the increment it 's not gon na burden things in the incremental backups . grad h: just just the monthly full . postdoc a: hmm . professor b: yeah , so the monthly full will be a bear but grad h: yeah . but he said that that we sh should n't worry too much about that , that we 're getting a new backup system and we 're far enough away from saturation on full backups that it 's w probably ok . professor b: really ? grad h: and uh , so the only issue here is the timing between getting more disks and uh recording meetings . professor b: so i guess the idea is that we would be reserving the non - backed - up space for things that took less than twenty - four hours to recreate or something like that , right ? grad h: things that are recreatable easily and also yeah , basically things that are recreatable . professor b: yeah . yeah . grad h: the expanded files and things like that . professor b: ok . grad h: they take up a lot more room anyway . professor b: yeah . grad h: uh but we do need more disk . professor b: so we can get more disk . yeah . so . grad h: yeah . and i i think i agree with him . i mean his point was well taken that if we lose one of these we can not get it back . professor b: ok . grad h: i do n't think there was any other et cetera there . professor b: well i was allowing someone else to come up with something related that they had uh phd e: i thought you guys were gon na burn c ds ? grad h: um unfortunately we could burn c ds but first of all it 's a pain . phd e: yeah . grad h: because you have to copy it down to the pc and then burn it and that 's a multi - step procedure . and second of all the the write - once burners as opposed to a professional press do n't last . phd e: yeah . grad h: so i think burning them for distribution is fine but burning them for backup is not a good idea . phd e: i see . ok . grad h: cuz th they they fail after a couple years . phd e: alright . postdoc a: i do have uh uh it 's a different topic . can i add one top topic ? we have time ? i wanted to ask , i know that uh that thilo you were , um , bringing the channeltrans interface onto the windows machine ? and i wanted to know is th phd d: yeah it 's it basically it 's done , postdoc a: it 's all done ? that 's g wonderful . great . phd d: yeah . yeah . grad h: yes , since tcl - tk runs on it , basically things 'll just work . phd d: yeah it yeah , it was just a problem with the snack version and the transcriber version but it 's solved . postdoc a: does and that does that mean , i phd d: so . postdoc a: maybe i should know this but i do n't . does this mean that the that this could be por uh ported to a think - pad note or some other type of uh phd d: yeah , basically uh i did install it on my laptop and yeah postdoc a: wonderful . phd d: it worked . postdoc a: wonderful . professor b: hmm ! good . crosspads ? crosspads ? grad h: uh got an email from uh james landay who basically said `` if you 're not using them , could you return them ? `` so he said he does n't need them , he just periodically w at the end of each term sends out email to everyone who was recorded as having them and asks them if they 're still using them . professor b: so we 've never used them . postdoc a: we used them once . professor b: once ? grad h: we we used them a couple times , postdoc a: mm - hmm . couple times . phd f: them ? there 's more than one ? grad h: but postdoc a: yeah . professor b: i grad h: yeah , we have two . um . professor b: but grad h: my opinion on it is , first , i never take notes anyway so i 'm not gon na use it , um and second , it 's another level of infrastructure that we have to deal with . postdoc a: and i have uh so my my feeling on it is that i think in principle it 's a really nice idea , and you have the time tags which makes it better tha than just taking ra raw notes . on the other hand , i the down side for me was that i think the pen is really noisy . so you have ka kaplunk , kaplunk , kaplunk . and i and i do n't know if it 's audible on the but i i sort of thought that was a disadvantage . i do take notes , i mean , i could be taking notes on these things and i guess the plus with the crosspads would be the time markings but i do n't know . phd d: uh , what is a crosspad ? professor b: so it 's it 's um it 's a regular pad , just a regular pad of paper but there 's this pen which indicates position . grad c: thank you . professor b: and so you have time and position stuff stored phd d: ok . professor b: so that you can you have a record of whatever it is you 've written . phd d: ok . grad h: and then you can download it and they have ocr and searching and all sorts of things . phd d: ok . ok . grad h: so i if you take notes it 's a great little device . postdoc a: could mm - hmm . grad h: but i do n't take notes , professor b: and one of the reasons that it was brought up originally was because uh we were interested in in higher - level things , grad h: so . professor b: not just the , you know , microphone stuff but also summarization and so forth and the question is if you were going to go to some gold standard of what wa what was it that happened in the meeting you know , where would it come from ? and um i think that was one of the things , phd d: yeah . phd g: yeah . grad h: yep . professor b: right ? and so the it seemed like a neat idea . we 'll have a you know , have a scribe , have somebody uh take good notes and then that 's part of the record of the meeting . and then we did it once or twice and we sort of grad h: yep , and then just sort of died out . professor b: probably chose the wrong scribe but it was it 's uh phd g: i mean grad h: yeah that 's right . postdoc a: well i did it one time grad h: yep . postdoc a: but um professor b: yeah . postdoc a: u but i guess the the other thing i 'm thinking is if we wanted that kind of thing i wonder if we 'd lose that much by having someone be a scribe by listening to the tape , to the recording afterwards and taking notes in some other interface . phd f: i mean we 're transcribing it anyways , why do we need notes ? postdoc a: oh it 's la it 's useful , grad h: because that 's summary . postdoc a: have a summary and high points . professor b: summary . phd g: i think there 's also there 's this use that phd f: summarize it from the transcription . phd g: the well , what if you 're sitting there and you just wan na make an x and you do n't wan na take notes and you 're you just wan na phd f: doodle . phd g: get the summary of the transcript from this time location like you know , and and then while you 're bored you do n't do anything and once in a while , maybe there 's a joke and you put a x and { comment } but in in other words you can use that just to highlight times in a very simple way . also with i was thinking and i know morgan disagrees with me on this but suppose you have a group in here and you wan na let them note whenever they think there might be something later that they might not wan na distribute in terms of content , they could just sort of make an x near that point or a question mark that sort of alerts them that when they get the transcript back they c could get some red flags in that transcript region and they can then look at it . so . i know we have n't been using it but i w i can imagine it being useful just for sort of marking time periods grad h: right . phd g: which you then get back in a transcript postdoc a: well . professor b: i guess so , you know , what what makes one think i is maybe we should actually schedule some periods where people go over something later phd g: so . professor b: and and and put some kind of summary or something uh you know , some there 'd be some scribe who would actually listen , w who 'd agreed to actually listen to the whole thing , not transcribe it , but just sort of write down things that struck them as important . but then you do n't you do n't have the time reference uh that you 'd have if you had it live . phd g: right . and you do n't have a lot of other cues that might be useful , professor b: yeah . phd f: how do you synchronize the time in the crosspad and the time of the recording ? phd g: so . grad h: i mean that was one of the issues we talked about originally and that that 's w part of the difficulty is that we need an infrastructure for using the time the crosspads and so that means synchronizing the time phd g: postdoc a: mm - hmm . grad h: you know you want it pretty close and there 's a fair amount of skew because it 's a hand - held unit with a battery postdoc a: well when when i d grad h: and so you postdoc a: ok . grad h: so you have to synchronize at the beginning of each meeting all the pads that are being used , so that it 's synchronized with the time on that and then you have to download to an application , and then you have to figure out what the data formats are and convert it over if you wan na do anything with this information . postdoc a: w mm - hmm . phd e: why grad h: and so there 's a lot of infrastructure which postdoc a: there is an alternative . grad h: unless someone postdoc a: there is an alternative , i mean , it 's still , there 's uh you know , your point stands about there be needing to be an infrastructure , but it does n't have to be synchronized with the little clock 's timer on it . you c i mean , i when i when i did it i synchronized it by voice , by whispering `` one , two , three , four `` onto the microphone grad h: hmm . postdoc a: and uh , you know . grad h: well , but then there 's the infrastructure at the other end phd e: right . grad h: which someone has to listen to that and find that point , postdoc a: yeah , it 's transcribed . it 's in the transcript . grad h: and then mark it . postdoc a: yeah . grad h: so . postdoc a: well it 's in the transcript . phd g: well , could we keep one of these things for another year ? would h i mean is there a big cau grad h: we can keep all both of them for the whole whole year . phd g: just just in case we grad h: i mean , it 's just phd g: even maybe some of the transcribers who might be wanting to annotate uh f just there 's a bunch of things that might be neat to do but i it might not be the case that we can actually synchronize them and then do all the infrastructure but we could at least try it out . professor b: well one thing that we might try um is on some set of meetings , some collection of meetings , maybe edu is the right one or maybe something else , we we get somebody to buy into the idea of doing this as part of the task . i mean , phd g: right . professor b: uh part of the reason i think part of the reason that adam was so interested in uh the speechcorder sort of f idea from the beginning is he said from the beginning he hated taking notes and grad h: yep . professor b: and so forth so and and jane is more into it but eh uh you know i do n't know if you wan na really do do this all the time so i think the thing is to to get someone to actually buy into it and have at least some series of meetings where we do it . um and if so , it 's probably worth having one . the p the the problem with the the more extended view , all these other you know with uh quibbling about particular applications of it is that it looks like it 's hard to get people to um uh routinely use it , i mean it just has n't happened anyway . but maybe if we can get a person to phd g: yeah i do n't think it has to be part of a what everybody does in a meeting but it might be a useful , neat part of the project that we can , you know , show off as a mechanism for synchronizing events in time that happen that you just wan na make a note of , like what jane was talking about with some later browsing , just just as a convenience , even if it 's not a full - blown note taking substitute . phd e: well if you wanted to do that maybe the right architecture for it is to get a pda with a wireless card . and and that way you can synchronize very easily with the the the meeting because you 'll be synchroni you can synchronize with the the linux server and uh phd g: so what kind of input would you be ? phd e: so so , i mean , if you 're not worried about grad h: buttons . phd g: you 'd just be pressing like a a phd e: well well you have a pda and may and you could have the same sort of x interface or whatever , i mean , you 'd have to do a little eh a little bit of coding to do it . phd g: mm - hmm . phd e: but you could imagine , phd g: yeah , that be good . phd e: i mean , if if all you really wanted was you did n't want this secondary note - taking channel but just sort of being able to use m markers of some sort , a pda with a l a wireless card would be the probably the right way to go . i mean even buttons you could do , sort of , i mean , as you said . grad h: i mean for what what you 've been describing buttons would be even more convenient than anything else , phd g: m right . phd e: right . phd g: that would be fine too . grad h: right ? you have the phd g: i mean , i do n't have , you know , grandiose ideas in mind but i 'm just sort of thinking well we 've we 're getting into the next year now and we have a lot of these things worked out at in terms of the speech maybe somebody will be interested in this and postdoc a: i like this pda idea . yeah . professor b: yeah , i do like the idea of having a couple buttons phd g: yeah . grad h: well i 'm sure there would postdoc a: yeah . professor b: where like one one button was `` uh - oh `` and then another button was `` that 's great `` and another button `` that 's f `` phd g: or like this is my `` i 'm supposed to do this `` kind of button , postdoc a: yeah . phd g: like `` i better remember to `` grad h: action item . phd g: yeah something like that or postdoc a: and then grad h: i mean i think the crosspad idea is a good one . postdoc a: uh - huh . grad h: it 's just a question of getting people to use it and getting the infrastructure set up in such a way that it 's not a lot of extra work . i mean that 's part of the reason why it has n't happened is that it 's been a lot of extra work for me phd g: yeah . professor b: right . postdoc a: well , and not just for you . grad h: and postdoc a: but it 's also , it has this problem of having to go from an analog to a d a digital record too , phd g: w postdoc a: does n't it ? i mean grad h: well it 's digital but it 's in a format that is not particularly standard . postdoc a: but i mean , say , if i if if you 're writing if you 're writing notes in it does it it ca n't do handwriting recognition , right ? professor b: no , no , but it 's just it 's just storing the pixel informa position information , postdoc a: ok . professor b: it 's all digital . postdoc a: i i guess what i 'm thinking is that the pda solution you h you have it already without needing to go from the pixelization to a to a i mean professor b: right . you do n't have to phd e: the transfer function is less errorful , postdoc a: oh , nicely put . professor b: yeah . phd e: yes . phd g: yeah , yeah . professor b: yeah . yeah . phd g: well it also it 's maybe realistic cuz people are supposed to be bringing their p d as to the meeting eventually , right ? that 's why we have this little i do n't know what i do n't wan na cause more work for anyone but i can imagine some interesting things that you could do with it and so if we do n't have to return it and we can keep it for a year i do n't know . grad h: well w we do n't we certainly do n't have to return it , as i said . all all he said is that if you 're not using it could you return it , if you are using it feel free to keep it . the point is that we have n't used it at all and are we going to ? professor b: so we have no but uh by i i would suggest you return one . because we we you know , we we have n't used it at all . phd g: yeah . grad h: ok . phd g: we c professor b: we have some aspirations of using them phd g: one would probably be fine . professor b: and phd g: maybe we could do like a student project , you know , maybe someone who wants to do this as their main like s project for something would be cool . professor b: yeah . grad h: yep . i mean if we had them out and sitting on the table people might use them a little more professor b: maybe jeremy could sit in some meetings and press a button when there when when somebody laughed . grad h: although there is a little phd g: well , i 'm yeah , that 's not a bad professor b: yeah , yeah . yeah . phd g: jeremy 's gon na be an he 's a new student starting on modeling brea breath and laughter , actually , which sounds funny but i think it should be cool , professor b: yeah . phd g: so . grad h: sounds breathy to me . phd g: ok . `` ha - ha - ha . `` grad h: breath and lau `` ha - ha - ha - ha `` . `` ha - ha - ha - ha . `` professor b: well dear . grad h: um . professor b: hmm . grad h: that reminded me of something . oh well , too late . it slipped out . professor b: ok . phd g: you 're you 're gon na tease me ? grad h: oh , equipment . phd g: ok . grad h: ordered uh , well i 'm always gon na do that . w uh { comment } we ordered uh more wireless , and so they should be coming in at some point . phd g: great . grad h: and then at the same time i 'll probably rewire the room as per jane 's suggestion so that uh the first n channels are wireless , eh are the m the close - talking and the next n are far - field . professor b: you know what he means but is n't that funny sounding ? `` we ordered more wireless . `` it 's like wires are the things so you 're wiring you 're you 're you we 're we ordered more absence of the thing . phd g: that 's a very philosophical statement from morgan . grad h: wired less , wired more . phd g: i just it 's sort of a anachronism , i mean it 's like it 's great . professor b: anyway . grad h: should we do digits ? do we have anything else ? professor b: yeah . postdoc a: ok . professor b: i mean there 's there 's all this stuff going on uh between uh andreas and and and dave and chuck and others with various kinds of runs uh um recognition runs , trying to figure things out about the features but it 's it 's all sort of in process , so there 's not much to say right now . uh why do n't we start with our our esteemed guest . phd e: ok . alright . grad h: so just the transcript number and then the then the phd e: this is yes , this is number two for me today . professor b: see all you have to do is go away to move way up in the phd e: oh . phd g: we could do simultaneous . initiate him . professor b: we we could . grad h: should we do simultaneous ? phd g: well , i 'm just thinking , are you gon na try to save the data before this next group comes in ? professor b: yeah . grad h: yeah , absolutely . phd g: yeah , so we might wan na do it simultaneous . grad h: i mean you hav sorta have to . professor b: well ok , so let 's do one of those simultaneous ones . phd g: right , so so we might n we might need to do that actually . professor b: that sounds good . grad h: ok . phd e: ok . professor b: everybody ready ? postdoc a: yeah . professor b: a one . phd g: you have to plug your ears , by the way uh eric , grad h: well i have to , phd d: you do n't have to . phd e: ok , alright . phd g: or or you start laughing . grad h: i do n't know about other people . professor b: ok , a one and a two and a three . ok , babble , take five .

grad h brought up that they were standardizing the data in xml , though grad h was not satisfied with the current data format . grad h was also building tools to extract information from xml 's in various languages , mainly java and perl .

what did grad g think about meeting data quality ? </s> phd e: yeah . professor b: um , so . if we ca n't , we ca n't . but uh we 're gon na try to make this an abbreviated meeting cuz the the next next occupants were pushing for it , so . um . so . agenda is according to this , is transcription status , darpa demos xml tools , disks , backups , et cetera and grad h: does anyone have anything to add to the agenda ? professor b: ok . should we just go in order ? transcription status ? who 's that 's probably you . postdoc a: i can do that quickly . um i hired several more transcribers , they 're making great progress . professor b: seven ? postdoc a: seve - several , several . professor b: oh . postdoc a: and uh and uh , uh i 've been uh finishing up the uh double checking . i hoped to have had that done by today but it 's gon na take one more week . grad h: um phd d: i g grad h: as a somewhat segue into the next topic , um could i get a hold of uh the data even if it 's not really corrected yet just so i can get the data formats and make sure the information retrieval stuff is working ? postdoc a: certainly . yeah i mean , it 's in the same place it 's been . grad h: so can you just oh , it is . postdoc a: uh - huh . no change . grad h: ok . just so , `` transcripts `` is the sub - directory ? postdoc a: uh yes . uh - huh . grad h: ok . so i 'll i 'll probably just make some copies of those rather than use the ones that are there . postdoc a: ok . grad h: um and then just we 'll have to remember to delete them once the corrections are made . postdoc a: ok . professor b: ok , wh phd d: i also got anot a short remark to the transcription . i 've uh just processed the first five edu meetings and they are chunked up so they would they probably can be sent to ibm whenever they want them . grad c: cool . phd f: well the second one of those phd d: yep . it 's already at ibm , phd f: is already at ibm . phd d: but the other ones phd f: that 's the one that we 're waiting to hear from them on . phd d: yeah . yeah . postdoc a: ok . phd f: yeah . postdoc a: these are separate from the ones that phd f: as soon as postdoc a: i mean , these are phd f: they 're the ibm set . phd d: yep . grad h: it 's this one . postdoc a: excellent . good . phd f: yeah . and so as soon as we hear from brian that this one is ok grad h: is my mike on ? yeah . phd f: and we get the transcript back and we find out that hopefully there are no problems matching up the transcript with what we gave them , then uh we 'll be ready to go and we 'll just send them the next four as a big batch , postdoc a: excellent . phd f: and let them work on that . grad h: and so we 're doing those as disjoint from the ones we 're transcribing here ? phd f: yes , exactly . grad h: ok , good . phd f: we 're sort of doing things in parallel , that way we can get as much done a at once . grad h: yeah , i think that 's the right way to do it , phd f: yeah . grad h: especially for the information retrieval stuff . anything else on transcription status ? postdoc a: hm - mmm . grad h: ok . professor b: darpa demos , we had the submeeting the other day . grad h: right , which uh so i 've been working on using the thisl tools to do information retrieval on meeting data and the thisl tools are there 're two sets , there 's a back - end and a front - end , so the front - end is the user interface and the back - end is the indexing tool and the querying tool . and so i 've written some tools to convert everything into the right for file formats . and the command line version of the indexing and the querying is now working . so at least on the one meeting that i had the transcript for uh conveniently you can now do information retrieval on it , do type in a a string and get back a list of start - end times for the meeting , phd f: what what kind of uh what does that look like ? the string that you type in . grad h: uh of hits . phd f: what are you are you are they keywords , or are they ? grad h: keywords . phd f: ok . i see . grad h: right ? and so and then it munges it to pass it to the thisl ir which uses an sgml - like format for everything . phd f: i see . professor b: and then does it play something back or that 's something you 're having to program ? grad h: um , right now , i have a tool that will do that on a command line using our standard tools , professor b: yeah . grad h: but my intention is to do a prettier user interface based either so so that 's the other thing i wanted to discuss , is well what should we do for the user interface ? we have two tools that have already been written . um the softsound guys did a web - based one , professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: um , which i have n't used , have n't looked at . dan says it 's pretty good professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: but it does mean you need to be running a web server . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: and so it it 's pretty big and complex . uh and it would be difficult to port to windows because it means porting the web server to windows . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: uh the other option is dan did the tcl - tk thisl gui front - end for broadcast news professor b: yeah . grad h: which i think looks great . i think that 's a nice demo . um and that would be much easier to port to windows . and so i think that 's the way we should go . postdoc a: i can i ask a question ? so um as it stands within the the channeltrans interface , it 's possible to do a find and a play . grad h: mm - hmm . postdoc a: you can find a searched string and play . so e are you so you 're adding like um , i do n't know , uh are they fuzzy matches or are they uh ? grad h: it 's a sort of standard , text - retrieval - based so it 's uh term frequency , inverse document frequency scoring . postdoc a: ok . grad h: um and then there are all sorts of metrics for spacing how far apart they have to be and things like that . so it it 's postdoc a: it 's a lot more sophisticated than the uh the basically windows - based grad h: i it 's like doing a google query or anyth anything else like that . postdoc a: ok . grad h: so i it uses so it pr produces an index ahead of time so you do n't you 're not doing a linear search through all the documents . cuz you can imagine if with if we have the sixty hours ' worth you do would n't wan na do a search . postdoc a: hm - mmm . good . grad h: um you have to do preindexing and so that these tools do all that . and so the work to get the front - end to work would be porting it well uh to get it to work on the unix systems , our side is just rewriting them and modifying them to work for meetings . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: so that it understands that they 're different speakers and that it 's one big audio file instead of a bunch of little ones and just sorta things like that . professor b: mm - hmm . phd g: mm - hmm . phd f: so what does the user see as the result of the query ? grad h: on which tool ? phd f: thisl . grad h: the thisl gui tool which is the one that dan wrote , tcl - tk phd f: yeah . grad h: um you type in a query and then you get back a list of hits and you can type on them and listen to them . click on them rather { comment } with a mouse . phd f: ah . professor b: mmm phd f: so if you typed in `` small heads `` or something you could grad h: right , you 'd get phd f: get back a uh uh { comment } something that would let you click and listen to some audio where that phrase had occurred grad h: something you you 'd get to listen to `` beep `` . phd f: or some professor b: that was a really good look . it 's too bad that that could n't come into the grad h: you could n't get a video . phd g: guess who i practice on ? postdoc a: at some point we 're gon na have to say what that private joke is , that keeps coming up . professor b: yeah . and then again , maybe not . so , uh yeah , that soun that sounds reasonable . yeah , it loo it my my recollection of it is it 's it 's a pretty reasonable uh demo sort of format . grad h: right . phd f: yeah that sounds good . grad h: and so i think there 'd be minimal effort to get it to work , minimally phd f: that sounds really neat . grad h: and then we 'd wan na add things like query by speaker and by meeting and all that sort of stuff . um dave gelbart expressed some interest in working on that so i 'll work with him on it . and it it 's looking pretty good , you know , the fact that i got the query system working . so if we wan na just do a video - based one i think that 'll be easy . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: if we wan na get it to windows it 's gon na be a little more work because the thisl ir , the information retrieval tool 's um , i had difficulty just compiling them on solaris . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: so getting them to compile on windows might be challenging . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: but you were saying that that the uh that there 's that set of tools , uh , cygnus tools , that grad h: so . it certainly helps . phd f: uh - huh . grad h: um , i mean without those i would n't even attempt it . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: yeah . grad h: but what those they what those do is provide sort of a bsd compatibility layer , professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: so that the normal unix function calls all work . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: and you have to have all the o grad h: um , but the problem is that that the thisl tools did n't use anything like autoconf and so you have the normal porting problems of different header files and th some things are defined and some things are n't and uh different compiler work - arounds and so on . so the fact that um it took me a day to get it c to compile under solaris means it 's probably gon na take me s significantly more than that to get it to compile under windows . professor b: how about having it run under free bsd ? phd e: well what you need grad h: free bsd would probably be easier . phd e: all you need to do is say to dan `` gee it would be nice if this worked under autoconf `` and it 'll be done in a day . grad h: that 's true . phd d: uh phd e: right ? grad h: actually you know i should check because he did port it to sprachcore phd e: right . grad h: so he might have done that already . phd e: i i i would n't be surprised . professor b: so grad h: i 'll check at that professor b: but it would what would serve would serve both purposes , is if you contact him and ask him if he 's already done it . phd e: what i phd f: how does it play ? grad h: yeah , right . professor b: if he has then you learn , if he has n't then he 'll do it . grad h: right . postdoc a: wow . phd f: i hope he never listens to these meetings . grad h: that 's right . so , and i 've been corresponding with dan and also with uh uh , softsound guy , uh postdoc a: it 's amazing . professor b: yeah . grad h: blanking on his name . professor b: tony robinson ? phd f: tony robinson ? grad h: do i mean tony ? i guess i do . professor b: yeah . phd e: james christie . grad h: or s or steve renals . professor b: steve renal - steve renals . grad h: which one do i mean ? phd e: steve renals is not softsound , is he ? professor b: no . grad h: my brain is not working , professor b: ok . grad h: i do n't remember who i 've been corresponding with . phd e: steve wro i it 's ste - steve renals wrote thisl ir . grad h: then it 's steve renals . professor b: oh , ok . phd e: ok . grad h: so uh just getting documentation and uh and f and formats , professor b: yeah . grad h: so that 's all going pretty well , professor b: assuming we 're phd e: right . phd f: what about issues of playing sound files @ @ between the two platforms ? grad h: i think we 'll be ok with that . um we have well , that 's a good point too . phd e: here 's a here 's a crazy idea actually . grad h: i do n't know . phd e: why do n't you try and merge transcriber and thisl ir ? they 're both tcl interfaces . grad h: well this is one of the reasons this is the one of the reasons that i 'm gon na have uh dave gelbart gelbart having him volunteer to work on it is a really good thing because he 's worked on the transcriber stuff phd e: right . grad h: and he 's more familiar with tcl - tk than i am . phd e: and then you get they then you get the windows media playing for free . grad h: well that 's snack , not not transcriber . phd e: right . but the point is that the transcriber uses snack and then you can but you can use a a lot of the same functionality and it 's grad h: yeah , yeah , i mean , i i think thisl thisl gui probably uses snack . and so my intention was just to base it on that . phd e: yeah . well my thought was is that it would be nice it would be nice to have the running transcripts um eh you know , from speaker to speaker . grad h: and if it does n't phd e: right ? do you have you have , you know , a speaker mark here and a speaker mark here ? grad h: right , we 'll have to figure out a user interface for that , so . phd e: right . well that eh my thought was if you had like multitrans or whatever do it . or whatever . grad h: yeah . it might be fairly difficult to get that to work in { comment } the little short segments we 'd be talking about and having the search tools and so on . we we can look into it , phd e: yeah . grad h: but professor b: the thing i was asking about with , um , free bsd is that it might be easier to get powerpoint shows running in free bsd than to get this other package running in grad h: yeah , i mean we have to i have to sit down and try it before i make too many judgments , professor b: yeah . grad h: so uh um my experience with the gnu compatibility library is really it 's just as hard and just as easy to port to any system . right ? the windows system is n't any harder because it it looks like a bsd system . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: it 's just , you know , just like all of them , the `` include `` files are a little different and the function calls are a little different . professor b: right . grad h: so i it might be a little easier but it 's not gon na be a lot easier . professor b: ok . so there was that demo , which was one of the main ones , then we talked about um some other stuff which would basically be um showing off the the transcriber interface itself and as you say , maybe we could even merge those in some sense , but but um , uh and part of that was showing off what the speech - non uh nonspeech { comment } stuff that thilo has done s looks like . phd d: yeah . postdoc a: can i ask one more thing about thisl ? so with the ir stuff then you end up with a somewhat prioritized um ? grad h: mm - hmm . mm - hmm , postdoc a: excellent . grad h: ranked . postdoc a: excellent . yeah . phd g: so another idea i w t had just now actually for the demo was whether it might be of interest to sh to show some of the prosody uh work that don 's been doing . professor b: mm - hmm . phd g: um actually show some of the features and then show for instance a task like finding sentence boundaries or finding turn boundaries . um , you know , you can show that graphically , sort of what the features are doing . it , you know , it does n't work great but it 's definitely giving us something . professor b: well i think at at the very least we 're gon na want something illustrative with that phd g: i do n't know if that would be of interest or not . professor b: cuz i 'm gon na want to talk about it and so i if there 's something that shows it graphically it 's much better than me just having a bullet point phd g: yeah . professor b: pointing at something i do n't know much about , phd g: i mean , you 're looking at this now professor b: so . phd g: are you looking at waves or matlab ? grad c: um yeah i 'm starting to and um yeah we can probably find some examples of different type of prosodic events going on . phd g: yeah def professor b: s so when we here were having this demo meeting , what we 're sort of coming up with is that we wan na have all these pieces together , to first order , by the end of the month phd g: i professor b: and then that 'll give us a week or so . grad c: ooo . the end of phd g: oh , the end of this month or next month ? oh , you mean like today ? grad h: this month . professor b: ju phd g: oh . professor b: june . june . june . phd g: next month . grad h: oh sorry , next month . grad c: yeah . phd g: sorry . grad h: today is n't june first , phd f: there 's another one . grad h: is it . professor b: uh that 'll that 'll give us that 'll give us a week or so to uh to port things over to my laptop and make sure that works , phd e: exactly . phd g: sorry . professor b: yeah . phd g: i think , i mean eh where grad c: yeah , i mean i 'll be here . phd g: yeah if d if don can sort of talk to whoever 's professor b: yeah . phd g: cuz we 're doing this anyway as part of our you know , the research , visualizing what these features are doing professor b: yeah . phd g: and so either it might not be integrated but it it could potentially be in it . professor b: yeah . well , this is to an audience of researchers phd g: could find some . professor b: so i mean , you know , to let s the goal is to let them know what it is we 're doing . phd g: i mean it 's different . professor b: so that 's phd g: i do n't think anyone has done this on meeting data so it might be neat , you know . professor b: yeah . good . done with that . xml tools ? grad h: um . so i 've been doing a bunch of xml tools where you we 're sort of moving to xml as the general format for everything and i think that 's definitely the right way to go because there are a lot of tools that let you do extraction and reformatting of xml tools . um . so yet again we should probably meet to talk about transcription formats in xml because i 'm not particularly happy with what we have now . i mean it works with transcriber but it it 's a pain to use it in other tools uh because it does n't mark start and end . phd f: start and end of each ? phd d: yeah . grad h: uh utterance . phd f: utterance . just marks ? grad h: so it 's implicit in in there phd f: yeah . grad h: but you have to do a lot of processing to get it . phd f: right . right . grad h: and so and also i 'd like to do the indirect time line business . um but regardless , i mean , w that 's something that you , me , and jane can talk about later . um , but i 've installed xml tools of various sorts in various languages and so if people are interested in doing extracting any information from any of these files , either uh information on users because the user database is that way i 'm converting the key files to xml so that you can extract m uh various inf uh sorted information on individual meetings grad c: cool . phd d: yeah . grad h: and then also the transcripts . and so l just let me know there it 's mostly java and perl but we can get other languages too if if that 's desirable . phd g: oh , quick question on that . is do we have the the seat information ? in in the key files now ? postdoc a: mm - hmm . grad h: the seat information is on the key files for the ones which postdoc a: ah . phd g: oh in for the new one grad h: it 's been recorded , phd g: ok . grad h: yeah . professor b: seat ? phd g: great . sea - yeah . grad h: where where you 're sitting . professor b: oh ! not not the quality or anything . no . phd d: n grad h: right . professor b: ok . i see . grad h: `` it 's pretty soft and squishy . `` professor b: yeah . yeah . phd g: alright . professor b: ok . phd g: ok . grad h: oh , but that might just be me . um . phd g: alright . professor b: that 's more seat information than we wanted . phd g: never mind . phd e: hmm . phd g: i 'm just trying to figure out , you know , when morgan 's voice appears on someone 's microphone are they next to him or are they across from him ? professor b: yeah . grad h: maybe we should bleep that out . professor b: mmm , yeah . phd f: wait a minute , professor b: yeah . phd f: how how w eh where is it in the key file ? grad h: right . the square bracket . phd g: cuz i mean i have n't been putting it in and in by grad h: you have n't been putting it in . phd g: right . postdoc a: well bu phd g: i have not . grad h: oh , ok . postdoc a: is n't it always on the digits ? professor b: some of these are missing . phd g: and professor b: are n't they ? postdoc a: is n't it always on the digits forms ? professor b: some fall out of phd g: well it grad h: yeah so we can go back and fill them in for the ones we have . grad c: ooo . phd g: i mean they 're on th right , these , but i just had n't ever been putting it in the key files . phd f: yeah i i never phd g: and i do n't think chuck was either phd f: i never knew we were supposed to put it in the key file . phd g: cuz grad h: i had told you guys about it phd f: oh really ? phd g: oh , so we 're both sorry . grad h: but phd g: so grad h: i mean this is why i wan na use a g a tool to do it rather than the plain text phd g: ok . phd f: ok . grad h: because with the plain text it 's very easy to skip those things . phd g: ok . grad h: so . um if you use the edit - key , or key - edit phd d: edit - key . grad h: i think it 's edit - key , { comment } command did i show you guys that ? phd d: yep . phd f: you mentioned it , grad h: i did show it to you , phd f: yeah . yeah . grad h: but i think you both said `` no , you 'll just use text file `` . phd f: text . grad h: um it has it in there , a place to fill it in . phd g: ok . phd f: ok . grad h: yeah , and so if you do n't fill it in , you 're not gon na get it in the meetings . phd g: so if right . well i i just realized i had n't been doing it grad h: so . phd g: and probably so grad h: yep . grad c: u grad h: yeah and then the other thing also that thilo noticed is , on the microphone , on channel zero it says hand - held mike or crown mike , phd g: yeah . right . grad h: you actually have to say which one . phd g: i know yeah , i usually delete the grad h: so . phd f: oh ! ok . i did n't do that either . phd g: i do n't , phd d: yeah . phd g: maybe i forgot to d phd f: takes me no time at all to edit these . phd g: but it 's almost yeah . grad h: yeah that 's cuz you kn phd f: i 'm not doing anything . grad h: i i know why . phd g: and i was i was looking at chuck 's , like , `` oh what did chuck do , ok i 'll do that `` . so . grad h: and then uh also in a couple of places instead of filling the participants under `` participants `` they were filled in under `` description `` . professor b: ah , ok . phd g: uh grad h: and so that 's also a problem . so anyway . phd g: we will do better . grad h: that 's it . oh uh also i 'm working on another version of this tool , the the one that shows up here , { comment } that will flash yellow if the mike is n't connected . and it 's not quite ready to go yet because um it 's hard to tell whether the mike 's connected or not because the best quality ones , the crown ones , { comment } are about the same level if they 're off and no one 's o off or if they 're on and no one 's talking . grad c: huh . grad h: um these these ones , they are much easier , there 's a bigger difference . so i 'm working on that and it it sorta works and so eventually we will change to that and then you 'll be able to see graphically if your mike is dropping in or out . grad c: will that also include like batteries dying ? just a any time the mike 's putting out zeros basically . grad h: yep . yep . yep . phd f: but with the screensaver kicking in , it phd d: but grad h: now phd d: y yeah . grad c: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad h: well i 'll turn off the screensaver too . grad c: oops . speaking of which . grad h: um the other thing is as i 've said before , it is actually on the thing . there 's a little level meter but of course no one ever pays attention to it . so i think having it on the screen is more easy to notice . postdoc a: it would be nice if if these had little light indicators , little l e ds for grad h: uh buzzer . postdoc a: yeah , a buzzer . grad h: `` bamp , bamp ! `` professor b: small shocks postdoc a: yeah . actually professor b: administered to the ok . oh grad h: ok , disk backup , et cetera ? um i spoke with dave johnson about putting all the meeting recorder stuff on non - backed - up disk to save the overhead of backup and he pretty much said `` yeah , you could do that if you want `` but he thought it was a bad idea . in fact what he said is doing the manual one , { comment } doing uh nw archive to copy it { comment } is a good idea and we should do that and have it backed up . he w he 's a firm believer in in lots of different modalities of backup . i mean , his point was well taken . this data can not be recovered . phd g: yeah . grad h: and so if a mistake is made and we lose the backup we should have the archive and if then a mistake is made and we lose the archive we should have the backup . professor b: well i guess it is true that even with something that 's backed up it 's not gon na if it 's stationary it 's not going to go through the increment it 's not gon na burden things in the incremental backups . grad h: just just the monthly full . postdoc a: hmm . professor b: yeah , so the monthly full will be a bear but grad h: yeah . but he said that that we sh should n't worry too much about that , that we 're getting a new backup system and we 're far enough away from saturation on full backups that it 's w probably ok . professor b: really ? grad h: and uh , so the only issue here is the timing between getting more disks and uh recording meetings . professor b: so i guess the idea is that we would be reserving the non - backed - up space for things that took less than twenty - four hours to recreate or something like that , right ? grad h: things that are recreatable easily and also yeah , basically things that are recreatable . professor b: yeah . yeah . grad h: the expanded files and things like that . professor b: ok . grad h: they take up a lot more room anyway . professor b: yeah . grad h: uh but we do need more disk . professor b: so we can get more disk . yeah . so . grad h: yeah . and i i think i agree with him . i mean his point was well taken that if we lose one of these we can not get it back . professor b: ok . grad h: i do n't think there was any other et cetera there . professor b: well i was allowing someone else to come up with something related that they had uh phd e: i thought you guys were gon na burn c ds ? grad h: um unfortunately we could burn c ds but first of all it 's a pain . phd e: yeah . grad h: because you have to copy it down to the pc and then burn it and that 's a multi - step procedure . and second of all the the write - once burners as opposed to a professional press do n't last . phd e: yeah . grad h: so i think burning them for distribution is fine but burning them for backup is not a good idea . phd e: i see . ok . grad h: cuz th they they fail after a couple years . phd e: alright . postdoc a: i do have uh uh it 's a different topic . can i add one top topic ? we have time ? i wanted to ask , i know that uh that thilo you were , um , bringing the channeltrans interface onto the windows machine ? and i wanted to know is th phd d: yeah it 's it basically it 's done , postdoc a: it 's all done ? that 's g wonderful . great . phd d: yeah . yeah . grad h: yes , since tcl - tk runs on it , basically things 'll just work . phd d: yeah it yeah , it was just a problem with the snack version and the transcriber version but it 's solved . postdoc a: does and that does that mean , i phd d: so . postdoc a: maybe i should know this but i do n't . does this mean that the that this could be por uh ported to a think - pad note or some other type of uh phd d: yeah , basically uh i did install it on my laptop and yeah postdoc a: wonderful . phd d: it worked . postdoc a: wonderful . professor b: hmm ! good . crosspads ? crosspads ? grad h: uh got an email from uh james landay who basically said `` if you 're not using them , could you return them ? `` so he said he does n't need them , he just periodically w at the end of each term sends out email to everyone who was recorded as having them and asks them if they 're still using them . professor b: so we 've never used them . postdoc a: we used them once . professor b: once ? grad h: we we used them a couple times , postdoc a: mm - hmm . couple times . phd f: them ? there 's more than one ? grad h: but postdoc a: yeah . professor b: i grad h: yeah , we have two . um . professor b: but grad h: my opinion on it is , first , i never take notes anyway so i 'm not gon na use it , um and second , it 's another level of infrastructure that we have to deal with . postdoc a: and i have uh so my my feeling on it is that i think in principle it 's a really nice idea , and you have the time tags which makes it better tha than just taking ra raw notes . on the other hand , i the down side for me was that i think the pen is really noisy . so you have ka kaplunk , kaplunk , kaplunk . and i and i do n't know if it 's audible on the but i i sort of thought that was a disadvantage . i do take notes , i mean , i could be taking notes on these things and i guess the plus with the crosspads would be the time markings but i do n't know . phd d: uh , what is a crosspad ? professor b: so it 's it 's um it 's a regular pad , just a regular pad of paper but there 's this pen which indicates position . grad c: thank you . professor b: and so you have time and position stuff stored phd d: ok . professor b: so that you can you have a record of whatever it is you 've written . phd d: ok . grad h: and then you can download it and they have ocr and searching and all sorts of things . phd d: ok . ok . grad h: so i if you take notes it 's a great little device . postdoc a: could mm - hmm . grad h: but i do n't take notes , professor b: and one of the reasons that it was brought up originally was because uh we were interested in in higher - level things , grad h: so . professor b: not just the , you know , microphone stuff but also summarization and so forth and the question is if you were going to go to some gold standard of what wa what was it that happened in the meeting you know , where would it come from ? and um i think that was one of the things , phd d: yeah . phd g: yeah . grad h: yep . professor b: right ? and so the it seemed like a neat idea . we 'll have a you know , have a scribe , have somebody uh take good notes and then that 's part of the record of the meeting . and then we did it once or twice and we sort of grad h: yep , and then just sort of died out . professor b: probably chose the wrong scribe but it was it 's uh phd g: i mean grad h: yeah that 's right . postdoc a: well i did it one time grad h: yep . postdoc a: but um professor b: yeah . postdoc a: u but i guess the the other thing i 'm thinking is if we wanted that kind of thing i wonder if we 'd lose that much by having someone be a scribe by listening to the tape , to the recording afterwards and taking notes in some other interface . phd f: i mean we 're transcribing it anyways , why do we need notes ? postdoc a: oh it 's la it 's useful , grad h: because that 's summary . postdoc a: have a summary and high points . professor b: summary . phd g: i think there 's also there 's this use that phd f: summarize it from the transcription . phd g: the well , what if you 're sitting there and you just wan na make an x and you do n't wan na take notes and you 're you just wan na phd f: doodle . phd g: get the summary of the transcript from this time location like you know , and and then while you 're bored you do n't do anything and once in a while , maybe there 's a joke and you put a x and { comment } but in in other words you can use that just to highlight times in a very simple way . also with i was thinking and i know morgan disagrees with me on this but suppose you have a group in here and you wan na let them note whenever they think there might be something later that they might not wan na distribute in terms of content , they could just sort of make an x near that point or a question mark that sort of alerts them that when they get the transcript back they c could get some red flags in that transcript region and they can then look at it . so . i know we have n't been using it but i w i can imagine it being useful just for sort of marking time periods grad h: right . phd g: which you then get back in a transcript postdoc a: well . professor b: i guess so , you know , what what makes one think i is maybe we should actually schedule some periods where people go over something later phd g: so . professor b: and and and put some kind of summary or something uh you know , some there 'd be some scribe who would actually listen , w who 'd agreed to actually listen to the whole thing , not transcribe it , but just sort of write down things that struck them as important . but then you do n't you do n't have the time reference uh that you 'd have if you had it live . phd g: right . and you do n't have a lot of other cues that might be useful , professor b: yeah . phd f: how do you synchronize the time in the crosspad and the time of the recording ? phd g: so . grad h: i mean that was one of the issues we talked about originally and that that 's w part of the difficulty is that we need an infrastructure for using the time the crosspads and so that means synchronizing the time phd g: postdoc a: mm - hmm . grad h: you know you want it pretty close and there 's a fair amount of skew because it 's a hand - held unit with a battery postdoc a: well when when i d grad h: and so you postdoc a: ok . grad h: so you have to synchronize at the beginning of each meeting all the pads that are being used , so that it 's synchronized with the time on that and then you have to download to an application , and then you have to figure out what the data formats are and convert it over if you wan na do anything with this information . postdoc a: w mm - hmm . phd e: why grad h: and so there 's a lot of infrastructure which postdoc a: there is an alternative . grad h: unless someone postdoc a: there is an alternative , i mean , it 's still , there 's uh you know , your point stands about there be needing to be an infrastructure , but it does n't have to be synchronized with the little clock 's timer on it . you c i mean , i when i when i did it i synchronized it by voice , by whispering `` one , two , three , four `` onto the microphone grad h: hmm . postdoc a: and uh , you know . grad h: well , but then there 's the infrastructure at the other end phd e: right . grad h: which someone has to listen to that and find that point , postdoc a: yeah , it 's transcribed . it 's in the transcript . grad h: and then mark it . postdoc a: yeah . grad h: so . postdoc a: well it 's in the transcript . phd g: well , could we keep one of these things for another year ? would h i mean is there a big cau grad h: we can keep all both of them for the whole whole year . phd g: just just in case we grad h: i mean , it 's just phd g: even maybe some of the transcribers who might be wanting to annotate uh f just there 's a bunch of things that might be neat to do but i it might not be the case that we can actually synchronize them and then do all the infrastructure but we could at least try it out . professor b: well one thing that we might try um is on some set of meetings , some collection of meetings , maybe edu is the right one or maybe something else , we we get somebody to buy into the idea of doing this as part of the task . i mean , phd g: right . professor b: uh part of the reason i think part of the reason that adam was so interested in uh the speechcorder sort of f idea from the beginning is he said from the beginning he hated taking notes and grad h: yep . professor b: and so forth so and and jane is more into it but eh uh you know i do n't know if you wan na really do do this all the time so i think the thing is to to get someone to actually buy into it and have at least some series of meetings where we do it . um and if so , it 's probably worth having one . the p the the problem with the the more extended view , all these other you know with uh quibbling about particular applications of it is that it looks like it 's hard to get people to um uh routinely use it , i mean it just has n't happened anyway . but maybe if we can get a person to phd g: yeah i do n't think it has to be part of a what everybody does in a meeting but it might be a useful , neat part of the project that we can , you know , show off as a mechanism for synchronizing events in time that happen that you just wan na make a note of , like what jane was talking about with some later browsing , just just as a convenience , even if it 's not a full - blown note taking substitute . phd e: well if you wanted to do that maybe the right architecture for it is to get a pda with a wireless card . and and that way you can synchronize very easily with the the the meeting because you 'll be synchroni you can synchronize with the the linux server and uh phd g: so what kind of input would you be ? phd e: so so , i mean , if you 're not worried about grad h: buttons . phd g: you 'd just be pressing like a a phd e: well well you have a pda and may and you could have the same sort of x interface or whatever , i mean , you 'd have to do a little eh a little bit of coding to do it . phd g: mm - hmm . phd e: but you could imagine , phd g: yeah , that be good . phd e: i mean , if if all you really wanted was you did n't want this secondary note - taking channel but just sort of being able to use m markers of some sort , a pda with a l a wireless card would be the probably the right way to go . i mean even buttons you could do , sort of , i mean , as you said . grad h: i mean for what what you 've been describing buttons would be even more convenient than anything else , phd g: m right . phd e: right . phd g: that would be fine too . grad h: right ? you have the phd g: i mean , i do n't have , you know , grandiose ideas in mind but i 'm just sort of thinking well we 've we 're getting into the next year now and we have a lot of these things worked out at in terms of the speech maybe somebody will be interested in this and postdoc a: i like this pda idea . yeah . professor b: yeah , i do like the idea of having a couple buttons phd g: yeah . grad h: well i 'm sure there would postdoc a: yeah . professor b: where like one one button was `` uh - oh `` and then another button was `` that 's great `` and another button `` that 's f `` phd g: or like this is my `` i 'm supposed to do this `` kind of button , postdoc a: yeah . phd g: like `` i better remember to `` grad h: action item . phd g: yeah something like that or postdoc a: and then grad h: i mean i think the crosspad idea is a good one . postdoc a: uh - huh . grad h: it 's just a question of getting people to use it and getting the infrastructure set up in such a way that it 's not a lot of extra work . i mean that 's part of the reason why it has n't happened is that it 's been a lot of extra work for me phd g: yeah . professor b: right . postdoc a: well , and not just for you . grad h: and postdoc a: but it 's also , it has this problem of having to go from an analog to a d a digital record too , phd g: w postdoc a: does n't it ? i mean grad h: well it 's digital but it 's in a format that is not particularly standard . postdoc a: but i mean , say , if i if if you 're writing if you 're writing notes in it does it it ca n't do handwriting recognition , right ? professor b: no , no , but it 's just it 's just storing the pixel informa position information , postdoc a: ok . professor b: it 's all digital . postdoc a: i i guess what i 'm thinking is that the pda solution you h you have it already without needing to go from the pixelization to a to a i mean professor b: right . you do n't have to phd e: the transfer function is less errorful , postdoc a: oh , nicely put . professor b: yeah . phd e: yes . phd g: yeah , yeah . professor b: yeah . yeah . phd g: well it also it 's maybe realistic cuz people are supposed to be bringing their p d as to the meeting eventually , right ? that 's why we have this little i do n't know what i do n't wan na cause more work for anyone but i can imagine some interesting things that you could do with it and so if we do n't have to return it and we can keep it for a year i do n't know . grad h: well w we do n't we certainly do n't have to return it , as i said . all all he said is that if you 're not using it could you return it , if you are using it feel free to keep it . the point is that we have n't used it at all and are we going to ? professor b: so we have no but uh by i i would suggest you return one . because we we you know , we we have n't used it at all . phd g: yeah . grad h: ok . phd g: we c professor b: we have some aspirations of using them phd g: one would probably be fine . professor b: and phd g: maybe we could do like a student project , you know , maybe someone who wants to do this as their main like s project for something would be cool . professor b: yeah . grad h: yep . i mean if we had them out and sitting on the table people might use them a little more professor b: maybe jeremy could sit in some meetings and press a button when there when when somebody laughed . grad h: although there is a little phd g: well , i 'm yeah , that 's not a bad professor b: yeah , yeah . yeah . phd g: jeremy 's gon na be an he 's a new student starting on modeling brea breath and laughter , actually , which sounds funny but i think it should be cool , professor b: yeah . phd g: so . grad h: sounds breathy to me . phd g: ok . `` ha - ha - ha . `` grad h: breath and lau `` ha - ha - ha - ha `` . `` ha - ha - ha - ha . `` professor b: well dear . grad h: um . professor b: hmm . grad h: that reminded me of something . oh well , too late . it slipped out . professor b: ok . phd g: you 're you 're gon na tease me ? grad h: oh , equipment . phd g: ok . grad h: ordered uh , well i 'm always gon na do that . w uh { comment } we ordered uh more wireless , and so they should be coming in at some point . phd g: great . grad h: and then at the same time i 'll probably rewire the room as per jane 's suggestion so that uh the first n channels are wireless , eh are the m the close - talking and the next n are far - field . professor b: you know what he means but is n't that funny sounding ? `` we ordered more wireless . `` it 's like wires are the things so you 're wiring you 're you 're you we 're we ordered more absence of the thing . phd g: that 's a very philosophical statement from morgan . grad h: wired less , wired more . phd g: i just it 's sort of a anachronism , i mean it 's like it 's great . professor b: anyway . grad h: should we do digits ? do we have anything else ? professor b: yeah . postdoc a: ok . professor b: i mean there 's there 's all this stuff going on uh between uh andreas and and and dave and chuck and others with various kinds of runs uh um recognition runs , trying to figure things out about the features but it 's it 's all sort of in process , so there 's not much to say right now . uh why do n't we start with our our esteemed guest . phd e: ok . alright . grad h: so just the transcript number and then the then the phd e: this is yes , this is number two for me today . professor b: see all you have to do is go away to move way up in the phd e: oh . phd g: we could do simultaneous . initiate him . professor b: we we could . grad h: should we do simultaneous ? phd g: well , i 'm just thinking , are you gon na try to save the data before this next group comes in ? professor b: yeah . grad h: yeah , absolutely . phd g: yeah , so we might wan na do it simultaneous . grad h: i mean you hav sorta have to . professor b: well ok , so let 's do one of those simultaneous ones . phd g: right , so so we might n we might need to do that actually . professor b: that sounds good . grad h: ok . phd e: ok . professor b: everybody ready ? postdoc a: yeah . professor b: a one . phd g: you have to plug your ears , by the way uh eric , grad h: well i have to , phd d: you do n't have to . phd e: ok , alright . phd g: or or you start laughing . grad h: i do n't know about other people . professor b: ok , a one and a two and a three . ok , babble , take five .

grad g thought that it would be important to collect seat information in the key files to know where someone was sitting . this would be useful when people had to be bleeped out upon being heard in someone else 's microphone . grad g wanted to figure out what seating arrangements led to other participants ' voices showing up in the microphone .

what did grad g think about collecting notes and related data with meetings ? </s> phd e: yeah . professor b: um , so . if we ca n't , we ca n't . but uh we 're gon na try to make this an abbreviated meeting cuz the the next next occupants were pushing for it , so . um . so . agenda is according to this , is transcription status , darpa demos xml tools , disks , backups , et cetera and grad h: does anyone have anything to add to the agenda ? professor b: ok . should we just go in order ? transcription status ? who 's that 's probably you . postdoc a: i can do that quickly . um i hired several more transcribers , they 're making great progress . professor b: seven ? postdoc a: seve - several , several . professor b: oh . postdoc a: and uh and uh , uh i 've been uh finishing up the uh double checking . i hoped to have had that done by today but it 's gon na take one more week . grad h: um phd d: i g grad h: as a somewhat segue into the next topic , um could i get a hold of uh the data even if it 's not really corrected yet just so i can get the data formats and make sure the information retrieval stuff is working ? postdoc a: certainly . yeah i mean , it 's in the same place it 's been . grad h: so can you just oh , it is . postdoc a: uh - huh . no change . grad h: ok . just so , `` transcripts `` is the sub - directory ? postdoc a: uh yes . uh - huh . grad h: ok . so i 'll i 'll probably just make some copies of those rather than use the ones that are there . postdoc a: ok . grad h: um and then just we 'll have to remember to delete them once the corrections are made . postdoc a: ok . professor b: ok , wh phd d: i also got anot a short remark to the transcription . i 've uh just processed the first five edu meetings and they are chunked up so they would they probably can be sent to ibm whenever they want them . grad c: cool . phd f: well the second one of those phd d: yep . it 's already at ibm , phd f: is already at ibm . phd d: but the other ones phd f: that 's the one that we 're waiting to hear from them on . phd d: yeah . yeah . postdoc a: ok . phd f: yeah . postdoc a: these are separate from the ones that phd f: as soon as postdoc a: i mean , these are phd f: they 're the ibm set . phd d: yep . grad h: it 's this one . postdoc a: excellent . good . phd f: yeah . and so as soon as we hear from brian that this one is ok grad h: is my mike on ? yeah . phd f: and we get the transcript back and we find out that hopefully there are no problems matching up the transcript with what we gave them , then uh we 'll be ready to go and we 'll just send them the next four as a big batch , postdoc a: excellent . phd f: and let them work on that . grad h: and so we 're doing those as disjoint from the ones we 're transcribing here ? phd f: yes , exactly . grad h: ok , good . phd f: we 're sort of doing things in parallel , that way we can get as much done a at once . grad h: yeah , i think that 's the right way to do it , phd f: yeah . grad h: especially for the information retrieval stuff . anything else on transcription status ? postdoc a: hm - mmm . grad h: ok . professor b: darpa demos , we had the submeeting the other day . grad h: right , which uh so i 've been working on using the thisl tools to do information retrieval on meeting data and the thisl tools are there 're two sets , there 's a back - end and a front - end , so the front - end is the user interface and the back - end is the indexing tool and the querying tool . and so i 've written some tools to convert everything into the right for file formats . and the command line version of the indexing and the querying is now working . so at least on the one meeting that i had the transcript for uh conveniently you can now do information retrieval on it , do type in a a string and get back a list of start - end times for the meeting , phd f: what what kind of uh what does that look like ? the string that you type in . grad h: uh of hits . phd f: what are you are you are they keywords , or are they ? grad h: keywords . phd f: ok . i see . grad h: right ? and so and then it munges it to pass it to the thisl ir which uses an sgml - like format for everything . phd f: i see . professor b: and then does it play something back or that 's something you 're having to program ? grad h: um , right now , i have a tool that will do that on a command line using our standard tools , professor b: yeah . grad h: but my intention is to do a prettier user interface based either so so that 's the other thing i wanted to discuss , is well what should we do for the user interface ? we have two tools that have already been written . um the softsound guys did a web - based one , professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: um , which i have n't used , have n't looked at . dan says it 's pretty good professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: but it does mean you need to be running a web server . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: and so it it 's pretty big and complex . uh and it would be difficult to port to windows because it means porting the web server to windows . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: uh the other option is dan did the tcl - tk thisl gui front - end for broadcast news professor b: yeah . grad h: which i think looks great . i think that 's a nice demo . um and that would be much easier to port to windows . and so i think that 's the way we should go . postdoc a: i can i ask a question ? so um as it stands within the the channeltrans interface , it 's possible to do a find and a play . grad h: mm - hmm . postdoc a: you can find a searched string and play . so e are you so you 're adding like um , i do n't know , uh are they fuzzy matches or are they uh ? grad h: it 's a sort of standard , text - retrieval - based so it 's uh term frequency , inverse document frequency scoring . postdoc a: ok . grad h: um and then there are all sorts of metrics for spacing how far apart they have to be and things like that . so it it 's postdoc a: it 's a lot more sophisticated than the uh the basically windows - based grad h: i it 's like doing a google query or anyth anything else like that . postdoc a: ok . grad h: so i it uses so it pr produces an index ahead of time so you do n't you 're not doing a linear search through all the documents . cuz you can imagine if with if we have the sixty hours ' worth you do would n't wan na do a search . postdoc a: hm - mmm . good . grad h: um you have to do preindexing and so that these tools do all that . and so the work to get the front - end to work would be porting it well uh to get it to work on the unix systems , our side is just rewriting them and modifying them to work for meetings . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: so that it understands that they 're different speakers and that it 's one big audio file instead of a bunch of little ones and just sorta things like that . professor b: mm - hmm . phd g: mm - hmm . phd f: so what does the user see as the result of the query ? grad h: on which tool ? phd f: thisl . grad h: the thisl gui tool which is the one that dan wrote , tcl - tk phd f: yeah . grad h: um you type in a query and then you get back a list of hits and you can type on them and listen to them . click on them rather { comment } with a mouse . phd f: ah . professor b: mmm phd f: so if you typed in `` small heads `` or something you could grad h: right , you 'd get phd f: get back a uh uh { comment } something that would let you click and listen to some audio where that phrase had occurred grad h: something you you 'd get to listen to `` beep `` . phd f: or some professor b: that was a really good look . it 's too bad that that could n't come into the grad h: you could n't get a video . phd g: guess who i practice on ? postdoc a: at some point we 're gon na have to say what that private joke is , that keeps coming up . professor b: yeah . and then again , maybe not . so , uh yeah , that soun that sounds reasonable . yeah , it loo it my my recollection of it is it 's it 's a pretty reasonable uh demo sort of format . grad h: right . phd f: yeah that sounds good . grad h: and so i think there 'd be minimal effort to get it to work , minimally phd f: that sounds really neat . grad h: and then we 'd wan na add things like query by speaker and by meeting and all that sort of stuff . um dave gelbart expressed some interest in working on that so i 'll work with him on it . and it it 's looking pretty good , you know , the fact that i got the query system working . so if we wan na just do a video - based one i think that 'll be easy . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: if we wan na get it to windows it 's gon na be a little more work because the thisl ir , the information retrieval tool 's um , i had difficulty just compiling them on solaris . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: so getting them to compile on windows might be challenging . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: but you were saying that that the uh that there 's that set of tools , uh , cygnus tools , that grad h: so . it certainly helps . phd f: uh - huh . grad h: um , i mean without those i would n't even attempt it . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: yeah . grad h: but what those they what those do is provide sort of a bsd compatibility layer , professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: so that the normal unix function calls all work . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: and you have to have all the o grad h: um , but the problem is that that the thisl tools did n't use anything like autoconf and so you have the normal porting problems of different header files and th some things are defined and some things are n't and uh different compiler work - arounds and so on . so the fact that um it took me a day to get it c to compile under solaris means it 's probably gon na take me s significantly more than that to get it to compile under windows . professor b: how about having it run under free bsd ? phd e: well what you need grad h: free bsd would probably be easier . phd e: all you need to do is say to dan `` gee it would be nice if this worked under autoconf `` and it 'll be done in a day . grad h: that 's true . phd d: uh phd e: right ? grad h: actually you know i should check because he did port it to sprachcore phd e: right . grad h: so he might have done that already . phd e: i i i would n't be surprised . professor b: so grad h: i 'll check at that professor b: but it would what would serve would serve both purposes , is if you contact him and ask him if he 's already done it . phd e: what i phd f: how does it play ? grad h: yeah , right . professor b: if he has then you learn , if he has n't then he 'll do it . grad h: right . postdoc a: wow . phd f: i hope he never listens to these meetings . grad h: that 's right . so , and i 've been corresponding with dan and also with uh uh , softsound guy , uh postdoc a: it 's amazing . professor b: yeah . grad h: blanking on his name . professor b: tony robinson ? phd f: tony robinson ? grad h: do i mean tony ? i guess i do . professor b: yeah . phd e: james christie . grad h: or s or steve renals . professor b: steve renal - steve renals . grad h: which one do i mean ? phd e: steve renals is not softsound , is he ? professor b: no . grad h: my brain is not working , professor b: ok . grad h: i do n't remember who i 've been corresponding with . phd e: steve wro i it 's ste - steve renals wrote thisl ir . grad h: then it 's steve renals . professor b: oh , ok . phd e: ok . grad h: so uh just getting documentation and uh and f and formats , professor b: yeah . grad h: so that 's all going pretty well , professor b: assuming we 're phd e: right . phd f: what about issues of playing sound files @ @ between the two platforms ? grad h: i think we 'll be ok with that . um we have well , that 's a good point too . phd e: here 's a here 's a crazy idea actually . grad h: i do n't know . phd e: why do n't you try and merge transcriber and thisl ir ? they 're both tcl interfaces . grad h: well this is one of the reasons this is the one of the reasons that i 'm gon na have uh dave gelbart gelbart having him volunteer to work on it is a really good thing because he 's worked on the transcriber stuff phd e: right . grad h: and he 's more familiar with tcl - tk than i am . phd e: and then you get they then you get the windows media playing for free . grad h: well that 's snack , not not transcriber . phd e: right . but the point is that the transcriber uses snack and then you can but you can use a a lot of the same functionality and it 's grad h: yeah , yeah , i mean , i i think thisl thisl gui probably uses snack . and so my intention was just to base it on that . phd e: yeah . well my thought was is that it would be nice it would be nice to have the running transcripts um eh you know , from speaker to speaker . grad h: and if it does n't phd e: right ? do you have you have , you know , a speaker mark here and a speaker mark here ? grad h: right , we 'll have to figure out a user interface for that , so . phd e: right . well that eh my thought was if you had like multitrans or whatever do it . or whatever . grad h: yeah . it might be fairly difficult to get that to work in { comment } the little short segments we 'd be talking about and having the search tools and so on . we we can look into it , phd e: yeah . grad h: but professor b: the thing i was asking about with , um , free bsd is that it might be easier to get powerpoint shows running in free bsd than to get this other package running in grad h: yeah , i mean we have to i have to sit down and try it before i make too many judgments , professor b: yeah . grad h: so uh um my experience with the gnu compatibility library is really it 's just as hard and just as easy to port to any system . right ? the windows system is n't any harder because it it looks like a bsd system . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: it 's just , you know , just like all of them , the `` include `` files are a little different and the function calls are a little different . professor b: right . grad h: so i it might be a little easier but it 's not gon na be a lot easier . professor b: ok . so there was that demo , which was one of the main ones , then we talked about um some other stuff which would basically be um showing off the the transcriber interface itself and as you say , maybe we could even merge those in some sense , but but um , uh and part of that was showing off what the speech - non uh nonspeech { comment } stuff that thilo has done s looks like . phd d: yeah . postdoc a: can i ask one more thing about thisl ? so with the ir stuff then you end up with a somewhat prioritized um ? grad h: mm - hmm . mm - hmm , postdoc a: excellent . grad h: ranked . postdoc a: excellent . yeah . phd g: so another idea i w t had just now actually for the demo was whether it might be of interest to sh to show some of the prosody uh work that don 's been doing . professor b: mm - hmm . phd g: um actually show some of the features and then show for instance a task like finding sentence boundaries or finding turn boundaries . um , you know , you can show that graphically , sort of what the features are doing . it , you know , it does n't work great but it 's definitely giving us something . professor b: well i think at at the very least we 're gon na want something illustrative with that phd g: i do n't know if that would be of interest or not . professor b: cuz i 'm gon na want to talk about it and so i if there 's something that shows it graphically it 's much better than me just having a bullet point phd g: yeah . professor b: pointing at something i do n't know much about , phd g: i mean , you 're looking at this now professor b: so . phd g: are you looking at waves or matlab ? grad c: um yeah i 'm starting to and um yeah we can probably find some examples of different type of prosodic events going on . phd g: yeah def professor b: s so when we here were having this demo meeting , what we 're sort of coming up with is that we wan na have all these pieces together , to first order , by the end of the month phd g: i professor b: and then that 'll give us a week or so . grad c: ooo . the end of phd g: oh , the end of this month or next month ? oh , you mean like today ? grad h: this month . professor b: ju phd g: oh . professor b: june . june . june . phd g: next month . grad h: oh sorry , next month . grad c: yeah . phd g: sorry . grad h: today is n't june first , phd f: there 's another one . grad h: is it . professor b: uh that 'll that 'll give us that 'll give us a week or so to uh to port things over to my laptop and make sure that works , phd e: exactly . phd g: sorry . professor b: yeah . phd g: i think , i mean eh where grad c: yeah , i mean i 'll be here . phd g: yeah if d if don can sort of talk to whoever 's professor b: yeah . phd g: cuz we 're doing this anyway as part of our you know , the research , visualizing what these features are doing professor b: yeah . phd g: and so either it might not be integrated but it it could potentially be in it . professor b: yeah . well , this is to an audience of researchers phd g: could find some . professor b: so i mean , you know , to let s the goal is to let them know what it is we 're doing . phd g: i mean it 's different . professor b: so that 's phd g: i do n't think anyone has done this on meeting data so it might be neat , you know . professor b: yeah . good . done with that . xml tools ? grad h: um . so i 've been doing a bunch of xml tools where you we 're sort of moving to xml as the general format for everything and i think that 's definitely the right way to go because there are a lot of tools that let you do extraction and reformatting of xml tools . um . so yet again we should probably meet to talk about transcription formats in xml because i 'm not particularly happy with what we have now . i mean it works with transcriber but it it 's a pain to use it in other tools uh because it does n't mark start and end . phd f: start and end of each ? phd d: yeah . grad h: uh utterance . phd f: utterance . just marks ? grad h: so it 's implicit in in there phd f: yeah . grad h: but you have to do a lot of processing to get it . phd f: right . right . grad h: and so and also i 'd like to do the indirect time line business . um but regardless , i mean , w that 's something that you , me , and jane can talk about later . um , but i 've installed xml tools of various sorts in various languages and so if people are interested in doing extracting any information from any of these files , either uh information on users because the user database is that way i 'm converting the key files to xml so that you can extract m uh various inf uh sorted information on individual meetings grad c: cool . phd d: yeah . grad h: and then also the transcripts . and so l just let me know there it 's mostly java and perl but we can get other languages too if if that 's desirable . phd g: oh , quick question on that . is do we have the the seat information ? in in the key files now ? postdoc a: mm - hmm . grad h: the seat information is on the key files for the ones which postdoc a: ah . phd g: oh in for the new one grad h: it 's been recorded , phd g: ok . grad h: yeah . professor b: seat ? phd g: great . sea - yeah . grad h: where where you 're sitting . professor b: oh ! not not the quality or anything . no . phd d: n grad h: right . professor b: ok . i see . grad h: `` it 's pretty soft and squishy . `` professor b: yeah . yeah . phd g: alright . professor b: ok . phd g: ok . grad h: oh , but that might just be me . um . phd g: alright . professor b: that 's more seat information than we wanted . phd g: never mind . phd e: hmm . phd g: i 'm just trying to figure out , you know , when morgan 's voice appears on someone 's microphone are they next to him or are they across from him ? professor b: yeah . grad h: maybe we should bleep that out . professor b: mmm , yeah . phd f: wait a minute , professor b: yeah . phd f: how how w eh where is it in the key file ? grad h: right . the square bracket . phd g: cuz i mean i have n't been putting it in and in by grad h: you have n't been putting it in . phd g: right . postdoc a: well bu phd g: i have not . grad h: oh , ok . postdoc a: is n't it always on the digits ? professor b: some of these are missing . phd g: and professor b: are n't they ? postdoc a: is n't it always on the digits forms ? professor b: some fall out of phd g: well it grad h: yeah so we can go back and fill them in for the ones we have . grad c: ooo . phd g: i mean they 're on th right , these , but i just had n't ever been putting it in the key files . phd f: yeah i i never phd g: and i do n't think chuck was either phd f: i never knew we were supposed to put it in the key file . phd g: cuz grad h: i had told you guys about it phd f: oh really ? phd g: oh , so we 're both sorry . grad h: but phd g: so grad h: i mean this is why i wan na use a g a tool to do it rather than the plain text phd g: ok . phd f: ok . grad h: because with the plain text it 's very easy to skip those things . phd g: ok . grad h: so . um if you use the edit - key , or key - edit phd d: edit - key . grad h: i think it 's edit - key , { comment } command did i show you guys that ? phd d: yep . phd f: you mentioned it , grad h: i did show it to you , phd f: yeah . yeah . grad h: but i think you both said `` no , you 'll just use text file `` . phd f: text . grad h: um it has it in there , a place to fill it in . phd g: ok . phd f: ok . grad h: yeah , and so if you do n't fill it in , you 're not gon na get it in the meetings . phd g: so if right . well i i just realized i had n't been doing it grad h: so . phd g: and probably so grad h: yep . grad c: u grad h: yeah and then the other thing also that thilo noticed is , on the microphone , on channel zero it says hand - held mike or crown mike , phd g: yeah . right . grad h: you actually have to say which one . phd g: i know yeah , i usually delete the grad h: so . phd f: oh ! ok . i did n't do that either . phd g: i do n't , phd d: yeah . phd g: maybe i forgot to d phd f: takes me no time at all to edit these . phd g: but it 's almost yeah . grad h: yeah that 's cuz you kn phd f: i 'm not doing anything . grad h: i i know why . phd g: and i was i was looking at chuck 's , like , `` oh what did chuck do , ok i 'll do that `` . so . grad h: and then uh also in a couple of places instead of filling the participants under `` participants `` they were filled in under `` description `` . professor b: ah , ok . phd g: uh grad h: and so that 's also a problem . so anyway . phd g: we will do better . grad h: that 's it . oh uh also i 'm working on another version of this tool , the the one that shows up here , { comment } that will flash yellow if the mike is n't connected . and it 's not quite ready to go yet because um it 's hard to tell whether the mike 's connected or not because the best quality ones , the crown ones , { comment } are about the same level if they 're off and no one 's o off or if they 're on and no one 's talking . grad c: huh . grad h: um these these ones , they are much easier , there 's a bigger difference . so i 'm working on that and it it sorta works and so eventually we will change to that and then you 'll be able to see graphically if your mike is dropping in or out . grad c: will that also include like batteries dying ? just a any time the mike 's putting out zeros basically . grad h: yep . yep . yep . phd f: but with the screensaver kicking in , it phd d: but grad h: now phd d: y yeah . grad c: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad h: well i 'll turn off the screensaver too . grad c: oops . speaking of which . grad h: um the other thing is as i 've said before , it is actually on the thing . there 's a little level meter but of course no one ever pays attention to it . so i think having it on the screen is more easy to notice . postdoc a: it would be nice if if these had little light indicators , little l e ds for grad h: uh buzzer . postdoc a: yeah , a buzzer . grad h: `` bamp , bamp ! `` professor b: small shocks postdoc a: yeah . actually professor b: administered to the ok . oh grad h: ok , disk backup , et cetera ? um i spoke with dave johnson about putting all the meeting recorder stuff on non - backed - up disk to save the overhead of backup and he pretty much said `` yeah , you could do that if you want `` but he thought it was a bad idea . in fact what he said is doing the manual one , { comment } doing uh nw archive to copy it { comment } is a good idea and we should do that and have it backed up . he w he 's a firm believer in in lots of different modalities of backup . i mean , his point was well taken . this data can not be recovered . phd g: yeah . grad h: and so if a mistake is made and we lose the backup we should have the archive and if then a mistake is made and we lose the archive we should have the backup . professor b: well i guess it is true that even with something that 's backed up it 's not gon na if it 's stationary it 's not going to go through the increment it 's not gon na burden things in the incremental backups . grad h: just just the monthly full . postdoc a: hmm . professor b: yeah , so the monthly full will be a bear but grad h: yeah . but he said that that we sh should n't worry too much about that , that we 're getting a new backup system and we 're far enough away from saturation on full backups that it 's w probably ok . professor b: really ? grad h: and uh , so the only issue here is the timing between getting more disks and uh recording meetings . professor b: so i guess the idea is that we would be reserving the non - backed - up space for things that took less than twenty - four hours to recreate or something like that , right ? grad h: things that are recreatable easily and also yeah , basically things that are recreatable . professor b: yeah . yeah . grad h: the expanded files and things like that . professor b: ok . grad h: they take up a lot more room anyway . professor b: yeah . grad h: uh but we do need more disk . professor b: so we can get more disk . yeah . so . grad h: yeah . and i i think i agree with him . i mean his point was well taken that if we lose one of these we can not get it back . professor b: ok . grad h: i do n't think there was any other et cetera there . professor b: well i was allowing someone else to come up with something related that they had uh phd e: i thought you guys were gon na burn c ds ? grad h: um unfortunately we could burn c ds but first of all it 's a pain . phd e: yeah . grad h: because you have to copy it down to the pc and then burn it and that 's a multi - step procedure . and second of all the the write - once burners as opposed to a professional press do n't last . phd e: yeah . grad h: so i think burning them for distribution is fine but burning them for backup is not a good idea . phd e: i see . ok . grad h: cuz th they they fail after a couple years . phd e: alright . postdoc a: i do have uh uh it 's a different topic . can i add one top topic ? we have time ? i wanted to ask , i know that uh that thilo you were , um , bringing the channeltrans interface onto the windows machine ? and i wanted to know is th phd d: yeah it 's it basically it 's done , postdoc a: it 's all done ? that 's g wonderful . great . phd d: yeah . yeah . grad h: yes , since tcl - tk runs on it , basically things 'll just work . phd d: yeah it yeah , it was just a problem with the snack version and the transcriber version but it 's solved . postdoc a: does and that does that mean , i phd d: so . postdoc a: maybe i should know this but i do n't . does this mean that the that this could be por uh ported to a think - pad note or some other type of uh phd d: yeah , basically uh i did install it on my laptop and yeah postdoc a: wonderful . phd d: it worked . postdoc a: wonderful . professor b: hmm ! good . crosspads ? crosspads ? grad h: uh got an email from uh james landay who basically said `` if you 're not using them , could you return them ? `` so he said he does n't need them , he just periodically w at the end of each term sends out email to everyone who was recorded as having them and asks them if they 're still using them . professor b: so we 've never used them . postdoc a: we used them once . professor b: once ? grad h: we we used them a couple times , postdoc a: mm - hmm . couple times . phd f: them ? there 's more than one ? grad h: but postdoc a: yeah . professor b: i grad h: yeah , we have two . um . professor b: but grad h: my opinion on it is , first , i never take notes anyway so i 'm not gon na use it , um and second , it 's another level of infrastructure that we have to deal with . postdoc a: and i have uh so my my feeling on it is that i think in principle it 's a really nice idea , and you have the time tags which makes it better tha than just taking ra raw notes . on the other hand , i the down side for me was that i think the pen is really noisy . so you have ka kaplunk , kaplunk , kaplunk . and i and i do n't know if it 's audible on the but i i sort of thought that was a disadvantage . i do take notes , i mean , i could be taking notes on these things and i guess the plus with the crosspads would be the time markings but i do n't know . phd d: uh , what is a crosspad ? professor b: so it 's it 's um it 's a regular pad , just a regular pad of paper but there 's this pen which indicates position . grad c: thank you . professor b: and so you have time and position stuff stored phd d: ok . professor b: so that you can you have a record of whatever it is you 've written . phd d: ok . grad h: and then you can download it and they have ocr and searching and all sorts of things . phd d: ok . ok . grad h: so i if you take notes it 's a great little device . postdoc a: could mm - hmm . grad h: but i do n't take notes , professor b: and one of the reasons that it was brought up originally was because uh we were interested in in higher - level things , grad h: so . professor b: not just the , you know , microphone stuff but also summarization and so forth and the question is if you were going to go to some gold standard of what wa what was it that happened in the meeting you know , where would it come from ? and um i think that was one of the things , phd d: yeah . phd g: yeah . grad h: yep . professor b: right ? and so the it seemed like a neat idea . we 'll have a you know , have a scribe , have somebody uh take good notes and then that 's part of the record of the meeting . and then we did it once or twice and we sort of grad h: yep , and then just sort of died out . professor b: probably chose the wrong scribe but it was it 's uh phd g: i mean grad h: yeah that 's right . postdoc a: well i did it one time grad h: yep . postdoc a: but um professor b: yeah . postdoc a: u but i guess the the other thing i 'm thinking is if we wanted that kind of thing i wonder if we 'd lose that much by having someone be a scribe by listening to the tape , to the recording afterwards and taking notes in some other interface . phd f: i mean we 're transcribing it anyways , why do we need notes ? postdoc a: oh it 's la it 's useful , grad h: because that 's summary . postdoc a: have a summary and high points . professor b: summary . phd g: i think there 's also there 's this use that phd f: summarize it from the transcription . phd g: the well , what if you 're sitting there and you just wan na make an x and you do n't wan na take notes and you 're you just wan na phd f: doodle . phd g: get the summary of the transcript from this time location like you know , and and then while you 're bored you do n't do anything and once in a while , maybe there 's a joke and you put a x and { comment } but in in other words you can use that just to highlight times in a very simple way . also with i was thinking and i know morgan disagrees with me on this but suppose you have a group in here and you wan na let them note whenever they think there might be something later that they might not wan na distribute in terms of content , they could just sort of make an x near that point or a question mark that sort of alerts them that when they get the transcript back they c could get some red flags in that transcript region and they can then look at it . so . i know we have n't been using it but i w i can imagine it being useful just for sort of marking time periods grad h: right . phd g: which you then get back in a transcript postdoc a: well . professor b: i guess so , you know , what what makes one think i is maybe we should actually schedule some periods where people go over something later phd g: so . professor b: and and and put some kind of summary or something uh you know , some there 'd be some scribe who would actually listen , w who 'd agreed to actually listen to the whole thing , not transcribe it , but just sort of write down things that struck them as important . but then you do n't you do n't have the time reference uh that you 'd have if you had it live . phd g: right . and you do n't have a lot of other cues that might be useful , professor b: yeah . phd f: how do you synchronize the time in the crosspad and the time of the recording ? phd g: so . grad h: i mean that was one of the issues we talked about originally and that that 's w part of the difficulty is that we need an infrastructure for using the time the crosspads and so that means synchronizing the time phd g: postdoc a: mm - hmm . grad h: you know you want it pretty close and there 's a fair amount of skew because it 's a hand - held unit with a battery postdoc a: well when when i d grad h: and so you postdoc a: ok . grad h: so you have to synchronize at the beginning of each meeting all the pads that are being used , so that it 's synchronized with the time on that and then you have to download to an application , and then you have to figure out what the data formats are and convert it over if you wan na do anything with this information . postdoc a: w mm - hmm . phd e: why grad h: and so there 's a lot of infrastructure which postdoc a: there is an alternative . grad h: unless someone postdoc a: there is an alternative , i mean , it 's still , there 's uh you know , your point stands about there be needing to be an infrastructure , but it does n't have to be synchronized with the little clock 's timer on it . you c i mean , i when i when i did it i synchronized it by voice , by whispering `` one , two , three , four `` onto the microphone grad h: hmm . postdoc a: and uh , you know . grad h: well , but then there 's the infrastructure at the other end phd e: right . grad h: which someone has to listen to that and find that point , postdoc a: yeah , it 's transcribed . it 's in the transcript . grad h: and then mark it . postdoc a: yeah . grad h: so . postdoc a: well it 's in the transcript . phd g: well , could we keep one of these things for another year ? would h i mean is there a big cau grad h: we can keep all both of them for the whole whole year . phd g: just just in case we grad h: i mean , it 's just phd g: even maybe some of the transcribers who might be wanting to annotate uh f just there 's a bunch of things that might be neat to do but i it might not be the case that we can actually synchronize them and then do all the infrastructure but we could at least try it out . professor b: well one thing that we might try um is on some set of meetings , some collection of meetings , maybe edu is the right one or maybe something else , we we get somebody to buy into the idea of doing this as part of the task . i mean , phd g: right . professor b: uh part of the reason i think part of the reason that adam was so interested in uh the speechcorder sort of f idea from the beginning is he said from the beginning he hated taking notes and grad h: yep . professor b: and so forth so and and jane is more into it but eh uh you know i do n't know if you wan na really do do this all the time so i think the thing is to to get someone to actually buy into it and have at least some series of meetings where we do it . um and if so , it 's probably worth having one . the p the the problem with the the more extended view , all these other you know with uh quibbling about particular applications of it is that it looks like it 's hard to get people to um uh routinely use it , i mean it just has n't happened anyway . but maybe if we can get a person to phd g: yeah i do n't think it has to be part of a what everybody does in a meeting but it might be a useful , neat part of the project that we can , you know , show off as a mechanism for synchronizing events in time that happen that you just wan na make a note of , like what jane was talking about with some later browsing , just just as a convenience , even if it 's not a full - blown note taking substitute . phd e: well if you wanted to do that maybe the right architecture for it is to get a pda with a wireless card . and and that way you can synchronize very easily with the the the meeting because you 'll be synchroni you can synchronize with the the linux server and uh phd g: so what kind of input would you be ? phd e: so so , i mean , if you 're not worried about grad h: buttons . phd g: you 'd just be pressing like a a phd e: well well you have a pda and may and you could have the same sort of x interface or whatever , i mean , you 'd have to do a little eh a little bit of coding to do it . phd g: mm - hmm . phd e: but you could imagine , phd g: yeah , that be good . phd e: i mean , if if all you really wanted was you did n't want this secondary note - taking channel but just sort of being able to use m markers of some sort , a pda with a l a wireless card would be the probably the right way to go . i mean even buttons you could do , sort of , i mean , as you said . grad h: i mean for what what you 've been describing buttons would be even more convenient than anything else , phd g: m right . phd e: right . phd g: that would be fine too . grad h: right ? you have the phd g: i mean , i do n't have , you know , grandiose ideas in mind but i 'm just sort of thinking well we 've we 're getting into the next year now and we have a lot of these things worked out at in terms of the speech maybe somebody will be interested in this and postdoc a: i like this pda idea . yeah . professor b: yeah , i do like the idea of having a couple buttons phd g: yeah . grad h: well i 'm sure there would postdoc a: yeah . professor b: where like one one button was `` uh - oh `` and then another button was `` that 's great `` and another button `` that 's f `` phd g: or like this is my `` i 'm supposed to do this `` kind of button , postdoc a: yeah . phd g: like `` i better remember to `` grad h: action item . phd g: yeah something like that or postdoc a: and then grad h: i mean i think the crosspad idea is a good one . postdoc a: uh - huh . grad h: it 's just a question of getting people to use it and getting the infrastructure set up in such a way that it 's not a lot of extra work . i mean that 's part of the reason why it has n't happened is that it 's been a lot of extra work for me phd g: yeah . professor b: right . postdoc a: well , and not just for you . grad h: and postdoc a: but it 's also , it has this problem of having to go from an analog to a d a digital record too , phd g: w postdoc a: does n't it ? i mean grad h: well it 's digital but it 's in a format that is not particularly standard . postdoc a: but i mean , say , if i if if you 're writing if you 're writing notes in it does it it ca n't do handwriting recognition , right ? professor b: no , no , but it 's just it 's just storing the pixel informa position information , postdoc a: ok . professor b: it 's all digital . postdoc a: i i guess what i 'm thinking is that the pda solution you h you have it already without needing to go from the pixelization to a to a i mean professor b: right . you do n't have to phd e: the transfer function is less errorful , postdoc a: oh , nicely put . professor b: yeah . phd e: yes . phd g: yeah , yeah . professor b: yeah . yeah . phd g: well it also it 's maybe realistic cuz people are supposed to be bringing their p d as to the meeting eventually , right ? that 's why we have this little i do n't know what i do n't wan na cause more work for anyone but i can imagine some interesting things that you could do with it and so if we do n't have to return it and we can keep it for a year i do n't know . grad h: well w we do n't we certainly do n't have to return it , as i said . all all he said is that if you 're not using it could you return it , if you are using it feel free to keep it . the point is that we have n't used it at all and are we going to ? professor b: so we have no but uh by i i would suggest you return one . because we we you know , we we have n't used it at all . phd g: yeah . grad h: ok . phd g: we c professor b: we have some aspirations of using them phd g: one would probably be fine . professor b: and phd g: maybe we could do like a student project , you know , maybe someone who wants to do this as their main like s project for something would be cool . professor b: yeah . grad h: yep . i mean if we had them out and sitting on the table people might use them a little more professor b: maybe jeremy could sit in some meetings and press a button when there when when somebody laughed . grad h: although there is a little phd g: well , i 'm yeah , that 's not a bad professor b: yeah , yeah . yeah . phd g: jeremy 's gon na be an he 's a new student starting on modeling brea breath and laughter , actually , which sounds funny but i think it should be cool , professor b: yeah . phd g: so . grad h: sounds breathy to me . phd g: ok . `` ha - ha - ha . `` grad h: breath and lau `` ha - ha - ha - ha `` . `` ha - ha - ha - ha . `` professor b: well dear . grad h: um . professor b: hmm . grad h: that reminded me of something . oh well , too late . it slipped out . professor b: ok . phd g: you 're you 're gon na tease me ? grad h: oh , equipment . phd g: ok . grad h: ordered uh , well i 'm always gon na do that . w uh { comment } we ordered uh more wireless , and so they should be coming in at some point . phd g: great . grad h: and then at the same time i 'll probably rewire the room as per jane 's suggestion so that uh the first n channels are wireless , eh are the m the close - talking and the next n are far - field . professor b: you know what he means but is n't that funny sounding ? `` we ordered more wireless . `` it 's like wires are the things so you 're wiring you 're you 're you we 're we ordered more absence of the thing . phd g: that 's a very philosophical statement from morgan . grad h: wired less , wired more . phd g: i just it 's sort of a anachronism , i mean it 's like it 's great . professor b: anyway . grad h: should we do digits ? do we have anything else ? professor b: yeah . postdoc a: ok . professor b: i mean there 's there 's all this stuff going on uh between uh andreas and and and dave and chuck and others with various kinds of runs uh um recognition runs , trying to figure things out about the features but it 's it 's all sort of in process , so there 's not much to say right now . uh why do n't we start with our our esteemed guest . phd e: ok . alright . grad h: so just the transcript number and then the then the phd e: this is yes , this is number two for me today . professor b: see all you have to do is go away to move way up in the phd e: oh . phd g: we could do simultaneous . initiate him . professor b: we we could . grad h: should we do simultaneous ? phd g: well , i 'm just thinking , are you gon na try to save the data before this next group comes in ? professor b: yeah . grad h: yeah , absolutely . phd g: yeah , so we might wan na do it simultaneous . grad h: i mean you hav sorta have to . professor b: well ok , so let 's do one of those simultaneous ones . phd g: right , so so we might n we might need to do that actually . professor b: that sounds good . grad h: ok . phd e: ok . professor b: everybody ready ? postdoc a: yeah . professor b: a one . phd g: you have to plug your ears , by the way uh eric , grad h: well i have to , phd d: you do n't have to . phd e: ok , alright . phd g: or or you start laughing . grad h: i do n't know about other people . professor b: ok , a one and a two and a three . ok , babble , take five .

grad g thought that it would be helpful to let the participants conveniently bleep things out during the meeting . while synchronizing bleeps from during the meeting would require some infrastructure , a faster version could be set up . though , g did think that the synchronization infrastructure would be a useful addition .

what did the postdoc think about collecting notes with meetings ? </s> phd e: yeah . professor b: um , so . if we ca n't , we ca n't . but uh we 're gon na try to make this an abbreviated meeting cuz the the next next occupants were pushing for it , so . um . so . agenda is according to this , is transcription status , darpa demos xml tools , disks , backups , et cetera and grad h: does anyone have anything to add to the agenda ? professor b: ok . should we just go in order ? transcription status ? who 's that 's probably you . postdoc a: i can do that quickly . um i hired several more transcribers , they 're making great progress . professor b: seven ? postdoc a: seve - several , several . professor b: oh . postdoc a: and uh and uh , uh i 've been uh finishing up the uh double checking . i hoped to have had that done by today but it 's gon na take one more week . grad h: um phd d: i g grad h: as a somewhat segue into the next topic , um could i get a hold of uh the data even if it 's not really corrected yet just so i can get the data formats and make sure the information retrieval stuff is working ? postdoc a: certainly . yeah i mean , it 's in the same place it 's been . grad h: so can you just oh , it is . postdoc a: uh - huh . no change . grad h: ok . just so , `` transcripts `` is the sub - directory ? postdoc a: uh yes . uh - huh . grad h: ok . so i 'll i 'll probably just make some copies of those rather than use the ones that are there . postdoc a: ok . grad h: um and then just we 'll have to remember to delete them once the corrections are made . postdoc a: ok . professor b: ok , wh phd d: i also got anot a short remark to the transcription . i 've uh just processed the first five edu meetings and they are chunked up so they would they probably can be sent to ibm whenever they want them . grad c: cool . phd f: well the second one of those phd d: yep . it 's already at ibm , phd f: is already at ibm . phd d: but the other ones phd f: that 's the one that we 're waiting to hear from them on . phd d: yeah . yeah . postdoc a: ok . phd f: yeah . postdoc a: these are separate from the ones that phd f: as soon as postdoc a: i mean , these are phd f: they 're the ibm set . phd d: yep . grad h: it 's this one . postdoc a: excellent . good . phd f: yeah . and so as soon as we hear from brian that this one is ok grad h: is my mike on ? yeah . phd f: and we get the transcript back and we find out that hopefully there are no problems matching up the transcript with what we gave them , then uh we 'll be ready to go and we 'll just send them the next four as a big batch , postdoc a: excellent . phd f: and let them work on that . grad h: and so we 're doing those as disjoint from the ones we 're transcribing here ? phd f: yes , exactly . grad h: ok , good . phd f: we 're sort of doing things in parallel , that way we can get as much done a at once . grad h: yeah , i think that 's the right way to do it , phd f: yeah . grad h: especially for the information retrieval stuff . anything else on transcription status ? postdoc a: hm - mmm . grad h: ok . professor b: darpa demos , we had the submeeting the other day . grad h: right , which uh so i 've been working on using the thisl tools to do information retrieval on meeting data and the thisl tools are there 're two sets , there 's a back - end and a front - end , so the front - end is the user interface and the back - end is the indexing tool and the querying tool . and so i 've written some tools to convert everything into the right for file formats . and the command line version of the indexing and the querying is now working . so at least on the one meeting that i had the transcript for uh conveniently you can now do information retrieval on it , do type in a a string and get back a list of start - end times for the meeting , phd f: what what kind of uh what does that look like ? the string that you type in . grad h: uh of hits . phd f: what are you are you are they keywords , or are they ? grad h: keywords . phd f: ok . i see . grad h: right ? and so and then it munges it to pass it to the thisl ir which uses an sgml - like format for everything . phd f: i see . professor b: and then does it play something back or that 's something you 're having to program ? grad h: um , right now , i have a tool that will do that on a command line using our standard tools , professor b: yeah . grad h: but my intention is to do a prettier user interface based either so so that 's the other thing i wanted to discuss , is well what should we do for the user interface ? we have two tools that have already been written . um the softsound guys did a web - based one , professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: um , which i have n't used , have n't looked at . dan says it 's pretty good professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: but it does mean you need to be running a web server . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: and so it it 's pretty big and complex . uh and it would be difficult to port to windows because it means porting the web server to windows . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: uh the other option is dan did the tcl - tk thisl gui front - end for broadcast news professor b: yeah . grad h: which i think looks great . i think that 's a nice demo . um and that would be much easier to port to windows . and so i think that 's the way we should go . postdoc a: i can i ask a question ? so um as it stands within the the channeltrans interface , it 's possible to do a find and a play . grad h: mm - hmm . postdoc a: you can find a searched string and play . so e are you so you 're adding like um , i do n't know , uh are they fuzzy matches or are they uh ? grad h: it 's a sort of standard , text - retrieval - based so it 's uh term frequency , inverse document frequency scoring . postdoc a: ok . grad h: um and then there are all sorts of metrics for spacing how far apart they have to be and things like that . so it it 's postdoc a: it 's a lot more sophisticated than the uh the basically windows - based grad h: i it 's like doing a google query or anyth anything else like that . postdoc a: ok . grad h: so i it uses so it pr produces an index ahead of time so you do n't you 're not doing a linear search through all the documents . cuz you can imagine if with if we have the sixty hours ' worth you do would n't wan na do a search . postdoc a: hm - mmm . good . grad h: um you have to do preindexing and so that these tools do all that . and so the work to get the front - end to work would be porting it well uh to get it to work on the unix systems , our side is just rewriting them and modifying them to work for meetings . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: so that it understands that they 're different speakers and that it 's one big audio file instead of a bunch of little ones and just sorta things like that . professor b: mm - hmm . phd g: mm - hmm . phd f: so what does the user see as the result of the query ? grad h: on which tool ? phd f: thisl . grad h: the thisl gui tool which is the one that dan wrote , tcl - tk phd f: yeah . grad h: um you type in a query and then you get back a list of hits and you can type on them and listen to them . click on them rather { comment } with a mouse . phd f: ah . professor b: mmm phd f: so if you typed in `` small heads `` or something you could grad h: right , you 'd get phd f: get back a uh uh { comment } something that would let you click and listen to some audio where that phrase had occurred grad h: something you you 'd get to listen to `` beep `` . phd f: or some professor b: that was a really good look . it 's too bad that that could n't come into the grad h: you could n't get a video . phd g: guess who i practice on ? postdoc a: at some point we 're gon na have to say what that private joke is , that keeps coming up . professor b: yeah . and then again , maybe not . so , uh yeah , that soun that sounds reasonable . yeah , it loo it my my recollection of it is it 's it 's a pretty reasonable uh demo sort of format . grad h: right . phd f: yeah that sounds good . grad h: and so i think there 'd be minimal effort to get it to work , minimally phd f: that sounds really neat . grad h: and then we 'd wan na add things like query by speaker and by meeting and all that sort of stuff . um dave gelbart expressed some interest in working on that so i 'll work with him on it . and it it 's looking pretty good , you know , the fact that i got the query system working . so if we wan na just do a video - based one i think that 'll be easy . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: if we wan na get it to windows it 's gon na be a little more work because the thisl ir , the information retrieval tool 's um , i had difficulty just compiling them on solaris . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: so getting them to compile on windows might be challenging . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: but you were saying that that the uh that there 's that set of tools , uh , cygnus tools , that grad h: so . it certainly helps . phd f: uh - huh . grad h: um , i mean without those i would n't even attempt it . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: yeah . grad h: but what those they what those do is provide sort of a bsd compatibility layer , professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: so that the normal unix function calls all work . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: and you have to have all the o grad h: um , but the problem is that that the thisl tools did n't use anything like autoconf and so you have the normal porting problems of different header files and th some things are defined and some things are n't and uh different compiler work - arounds and so on . so the fact that um it took me a day to get it c to compile under solaris means it 's probably gon na take me s significantly more than that to get it to compile under windows . professor b: how about having it run under free bsd ? phd e: well what you need grad h: free bsd would probably be easier . phd e: all you need to do is say to dan `` gee it would be nice if this worked under autoconf `` and it 'll be done in a day . grad h: that 's true . phd d: uh phd e: right ? grad h: actually you know i should check because he did port it to sprachcore phd e: right . grad h: so he might have done that already . phd e: i i i would n't be surprised . professor b: so grad h: i 'll check at that professor b: but it would what would serve would serve both purposes , is if you contact him and ask him if he 's already done it . phd e: what i phd f: how does it play ? grad h: yeah , right . professor b: if he has then you learn , if he has n't then he 'll do it . grad h: right . postdoc a: wow . phd f: i hope he never listens to these meetings . grad h: that 's right . so , and i 've been corresponding with dan and also with uh uh , softsound guy , uh postdoc a: it 's amazing . professor b: yeah . grad h: blanking on his name . professor b: tony robinson ? phd f: tony robinson ? grad h: do i mean tony ? i guess i do . professor b: yeah . phd e: james christie . grad h: or s or steve renals . professor b: steve renal - steve renals . grad h: which one do i mean ? phd e: steve renals is not softsound , is he ? professor b: no . grad h: my brain is not working , professor b: ok . grad h: i do n't remember who i 've been corresponding with . phd e: steve wro i it 's ste - steve renals wrote thisl ir . grad h: then it 's steve renals . professor b: oh , ok . phd e: ok . grad h: so uh just getting documentation and uh and f and formats , professor b: yeah . grad h: so that 's all going pretty well , professor b: assuming we 're phd e: right . phd f: what about issues of playing sound files @ @ between the two platforms ? grad h: i think we 'll be ok with that . um we have well , that 's a good point too . phd e: here 's a here 's a crazy idea actually . grad h: i do n't know . phd e: why do n't you try and merge transcriber and thisl ir ? they 're both tcl interfaces . grad h: well this is one of the reasons this is the one of the reasons that i 'm gon na have uh dave gelbart gelbart having him volunteer to work on it is a really good thing because he 's worked on the transcriber stuff phd e: right . grad h: and he 's more familiar with tcl - tk than i am . phd e: and then you get they then you get the windows media playing for free . grad h: well that 's snack , not not transcriber . phd e: right . but the point is that the transcriber uses snack and then you can but you can use a a lot of the same functionality and it 's grad h: yeah , yeah , i mean , i i think thisl thisl gui probably uses snack . and so my intention was just to base it on that . phd e: yeah . well my thought was is that it would be nice it would be nice to have the running transcripts um eh you know , from speaker to speaker . grad h: and if it does n't phd e: right ? do you have you have , you know , a speaker mark here and a speaker mark here ? grad h: right , we 'll have to figure out a user interface for that , so . phd e: right . well that eh my thought was if you had like multitrans or whatever do it . or whatever . grad h: yeah . it might be fairly difficult to get that to work in { comment } the little short segments we 'd be talking about and having the search tools and so on . we we can look into it , phd e: yeah . grad h: but professor b: the thing i was asking about with , um , free bsd is that it might be easier to get powerpoint shows running in free bsd than to get this other package running in grad h: yeah , i mean we have to i have to sit down and try it before i make too many judgments , professor b: yeah . grad h: so uh um my experience with the gnu compatibility library is really it 's just as hard and just as easy to port to any system . right ? the windows system is n't any harder because it it looks like a bsd system . professor b: mm - hmm . grad h: it 's just , you know , just like all of them , the `` include `` files are a little different and the function calls are a little different . professor b: right . grad h: so i it might be a little easier but it 's not gon na be a lot easier . professor b: ok . so there was that demo , which was one of the main ones , then we talked about um some other stuff which would basically be um showing off the the transcriber interface itself and as you say , maybe we could even merge those in some sense , but but um , uh and part of that was showing off what the speech - non uh nonspeech { comment } stuff that thilo has done s looks like . phd d: yeah . postdoc a: can i ask one more thing about thisl ? so with the ir stuff then you end up with a somewhat prioritized um ? grad h: mm - hmm . mm - hmm , postdoc a: excellent . grad h: ranked . postdoc a: excellent . yeah . phd g: so another idea i w t had just now actually for the demo was whether it might be of interest to sh to show some of the prosody uh work that don 's been doing . professor b: mm - hmm . phd g: um actually show some of the features and then show for instance a task like finding sentence boundaries or finding turn boundaries . um , you know , you can show that graphically , sort of what the features are doing . it , you know , it does n't work great but it 's definitely giving us something . professor b: well i think at at the very least we 're gon na want something illustrative with that phd g: i do n't know if that would be of interest or not . professor b: cuz i 'm gon na want to talk about it and so i if there 's something that shows it graphically it 's much better than me just having a bullet point phd g: yeah . professor b: pointing at something i do n't know much about , phd g: i mean , you 're looking at this now professor b: so . phd g: are you looking at waves or matlab ? grad c: um yeah i 'm starting to and um yeah we can probably find some examples of different type of prosodic events going on . phd g: yeah def professor b: s so when we here were having this demo meeting , what we 're sort of coming up with is that we wan na have all these pieces together , to first order , by the end of the month phd g: i professor b: and then that 'll give us a week or so . grad c: ooo . the end of phd g: oh , the end of this month or next month ? oh , you mean like today ? grad h: this month . professor b: ju phd g: oh . professor b: june . june . june . phd g: next month . grad h: oh sorry , next month . grad c: yeah . phd g: sorry . grad h: today is n't june first , phd f: there 's another one . grad h: is it . professor b: uh that 'll that 'll give us that 'll give us a week or so to uh to port things over to my laptop and make sure that works , phd e: exactly . phd g: sorry . professor b: yeah . phd g: i think , i mean eh where grad c: yeah , i mean i 'll be here . phd g: yeah if d if don can sort of talk to whoever 's professor b: yeah . phd g: cuz we 're doing this anyway as part of our you know , the research , visualizing what these features are doing professor b: yeah . phd g: and so either it might not be integrated but it it could potentially be in it . professor b: yeah . well , this is to an audience of researchers phd g: could find some . professor b: so i mean , you know , to let s the goal is to let them know what it is we 're doing . phd g: i mean it 's different . professor b: so that 's phd g: i do n't think anyone has done this on meeting data so it might be neat , you know . professor b: yeah . good . done with that . xml tools ? grad h: um . so i 've been doing a bunch of xml tools where you we 're sort of moving to xml as the general format for everything and i think that 's definitely the right way to go because there are a lot of tools that let you do extraction and reformatting of xml tools . um . so yet again we should probably meet to talk about transcription formats in xml because i 'm not particularly happy with what we have now . i mean it works with transcriber but it it 's a pain to use it in other tools uh because it does n't mark start and end . phd f: start and end of each ? phd d: yeah . grad h: uh utterance . phd f: utterance . just marks ? grad h: so it 's implicit in in there phd f: yeah . grad h: but you have to do a lot of processing to get it . phd f: right . right . grad h: and so and also i 'd like to do the indirect time line business . um but regardless , i mean , w that 's something that you , me , and jane can talk about later . um , but i 've installed xml tools of various sorts in various languages and so if people are interested in doing extracting any information from any of these files , either uh information on users because the user database is that way i 'm converting the key files to xml so that you can extract m uh various inf uh sorted information on individual meetings grad c: cool . phd d: yeah . grad h: and then also the transcripts . and so l just let me know there it 's mostly java and perl but we can get other languages too if if that 's desirable . phd g: oh , quick question on that . is do we have the the seat information ? in in the key files now ? postdoc a: mm - hmm . grad h: the seat information is on the key files for the ones which postdoc a: ah . phd g: oh in for the new one grad h: it 's been recorded , phd g: ok . grad h: yeah . professor b: seat ? phd g: great . sea - yeah . grad h: where where you 're sitting . professor b: oh ! not not the quality or anything . no . phd d: n grad h: right . professor b: ok . i see . grad h: `` it 's pretty soft and squishy . `` professor b: yeah . yeah . phd g: alright . professor b: ok . phd g: ok . grad h: oh , but that might just be me . um . phd g: alright . professor b: that 's more seat information than we wanted . phd g: never mind . phd e: hmm . phd g: i 'm just trying to figure out , you know , when morgan 's voice appears on someone 's microphone are they next to him or are they across from him ? professor b: yeah . grad h: maybe we should bleep that out . professor b: mmm , yeah . phd f: wait a minute , professor b: yeah . phd f: how how w eh where is it in the key file ? grad h: right . the square bracket . phd g: cuz i mean i have n't been putting it in and in by grad h: you have n't been putting it in . phd g: right . postdoc a: well bu phd g: i have not . grad h: oh , ok . postdoc a: is n't it always on the digits ? professor b: some of these are missing . phd g: and professor b: are n't they ? postdoc a: is n't it always on the digits forms ? professor b: some fall out of phd g: well it grad h: yeah so we can go back and fill them in for the ones we have . grad c: ooo . phd g: i mean they 're on th right , these , but i just had n't ever been putting it in the key files . phd f: yeah i i never phd g: and i do n't think chuck was either phd f: i never knew we were supposed to put it in the key file . phd g: cuz grad h: i had told you guys about it phd f: oh really ? phd g: oh , so we 're both sorry . grad h: but phd g: so grad h: i mean this is why i wan na use a g a tool to do it rather than the plain text phd g: ok . phd f: ok . grad h: because with the plain text it 's very easy to skip those things . phd g: ok . grad h: so . um if you use the edit - key , or key - edit phd d: edit - key . grad h: i think it 's edit - key , { comment } command did i show you guys that ? phd d: yep . phd f: you mentioned it , grad h: i did show it to you , phd f: yeah . yeah . grad h: but i think you both said `` no , you 'll just use text file `` . phd f: text . grad h: um it has it in there , a place to fill it in . phd g: ok . phd f: ok . grad h: yeah , and so if you do n't fill it in , you 're not gon na get it in the meetings . phd g: so if right . well i i just realized i had n't been doing it grad h: so . phd g: and probably so grad h: yep . grad c: u grad h: yeah and then the other thing also that thilo noticed is , on the microphone , on channel zero it says hand - held mike or crown mike , phd g: yeah . right . grad h: you actually have to say which one . phd g: i know yeah , i usually delete the grad h: so . phd f: oh ! ok . i did n't do that either . phd g: i do n't , phd d: yeah . phd g: maybe i forgot to d phd f: takes me no time at all to edit these . phd g: but it 's almost yeah . grad h: yeah that 's cuz you kn phd f: i 'm not doing anything . grad h: i i know why . phd g: and i was i was looking at chuck 's , like , `` oh what did chuck do , ok i 'll do that `` . so . grad h: and then uh also in a couple of places instead of filling the participants under `` participants `` they were filled in under `` description `` . professor b: ah , ok . phd g: uh grad h: and so that 's also a problem . so anyway . phd g: we will do better . grad h: that 's it . oh uh also i 'm working on another version of this tool , the the one that shows up here , { comment } that will flash yellow if the mike is n't connected . and it 's not quite ready to go yet because um it 's hard to tell whether the mike 's connected or not because the best quality ones , the crown ones , { comment } are about the same level if they 're off and no one 's o off or if they 're on and no one 's talking . grad c: huh . grad h: um these these ones , they are much easier , there 's a bigger difference . so i 'm working on that and it it sorta works and so eventually we will change to that and then you 'll be able to see graphically if your mike is dropping in or out . grad c: will that also include like batteries dying ? just a any time the mike 's putting out zeros basically . grad h: yep . yep . yep . phd f: but with the screensaver kicking in , it phd d: but grad h: now phd d: y yeah . grad c: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad h: well i 'll turn off the screensaver too . grad c: oops . speaking of which . grad h: um the other thing is as i 've said before , it is actually on the thing . there 's a little level meter but of course no one ever pays attention to it . so i think having it on the screen is more easy to notice . postdoc a: it would be nice if if these had little light indicators , little l e ds for grad h: uh buzzer . postdoc a: yeah , a buzzer . grad h: `` bamp , bamp ! `` professor b: small shocks postdoc a: yeah . actually professor b: administered to the ok . oh grad h: ok , disk backup , et cetera ? um i spoke with dave johnson about putting all the meeting recorder stuff on non - backed - up disk to save the overhead of backup and he pretty much said `` yeah , you could do that if you want `` but he thought it was a bad idea . in fact what he said is doing the manual one , { comment } doing uh nw archive to copy it { comment } is a good idea and we should do that and have it backed up . he w he 's a firm believer in in lots of different modalities of backup . i mean , his point was well taken . this data can not be recovered . phd g: yeah . grad h: and so if a mistake is made and we lose the backup we should have the archive and if then a mistake is made and we lose the archive we should have the backup . professor b: well i guess it is true that even with something that 's backed up it 's not gon na if it 's stationary it 's not going to go through the increment it 's not gon na burden things in the incremental backups . grad h: just just the monthly full . postdoc a: hmm . professor b: yeah , so the monthly full will be a bear but grad h: yeah . but he said that that we sh should n't worry too much about that , that we 're getting a new backup system and we 're far enough away from saturation on full backups that it 's w probably ok . professor b: really ? grad h: and uh , so the only issue here is the timing between getting more disks and uh recording meetings . professor b: so i guess the idea is that we would be reserving the non - backed - up space for things that took less than twenty - four hours to recreate or something like that , right ? grad h: things that are recreatable easily and also yeah , basically things that are recreatable . professor b: yeah . yeah . grad h: the expanded files and things like that . professor b: ok . grad h: they take up a lot more room anyway . professor b: yeah . grad h: uh but we do need more disk . professor b: so we can get more disk . yeah . so . grad h: yeah . and i i think i agree with him . i mean his point was well taken that if we lose one of these we can not get it back . professor b: ok . grad h: i do n't think there was any other et cetera there . professor b: well i was allowing someone else to come up with something related that they had uh phd e: i thought you guys were gon na burn c ds ? grad h: um unfortunately we could burn c ds but first of all it 's a pain . phd e: yeah . grad h: because you have to copy it down to the pc and then burn it and that 's a multi - step procedure . and second of all the the write - once burners as opposed to a professional press do n't last . phd e: yeah . grad h: so i think burning them for distribution is fine but burning them for backup is not a good idea . phd e: i see . ok . grad h: cuz th they they fail after a couple years . phd e: alright . postdoc a: i do have uh uh it 's a different topic . can i add one top topic ? we have time ? i wanted to ask , i know that uh that thilo you were , um , bringing the channeltrans interface onto the windows machine ? and i wanted to know is th phd d: yeah it 's it basically it 's done , postdoc a: it 's all done ? that 's g wonderful . great . phd d: yeah . yeah . grad h: yes , since tcl - tk runs on it , basically things 'll just work . phd d: yeah it yeah , it was just a problem with the snack version and the transcriber version but it 's solved . postdoc a: does and that does that mean , i phd d: so . postdoc a: maybe i should know this but i do n't . does this mean that the that this could be por uh ported to a think - pad note or some other type of uh phd d: yeah , basically uh i did install it on my laptop and yeah postdoc a: wonderful . phd d: it worked . postdoc a: wonderful . professor b: hmm ! good . crosspads ? crosspads ? grad h: uh got an email from uh james landay who basically said `` if you 're not using them , could you return them ? `` so he said he does n't need them , he just periodically w at the end of each term sends out email to everyone who was recorded as having them and asks them if they 're still using them . professor b: so we 've never used them . postdoc a: we used them once . professor b: once ? grad h: we we used them a couple times , postdoc a: mm - hmm . couple times . phd f: them ? there 's more than one ? grad h: but postdoc a: yeah . professor b: i grad h: yeah , we have two . um . professor b: but grad h: my opinion on it is , first , i never take notes anyway so i 'm not gon na use it , um and second , it 's another level of infrastructure that we have to deal with . postdoc a: and i have uh so my my feeling on it is that i think in principle it 's a really nice idea , and you have the time tags which makes it better tha than just taking ra raw notes . on the other hand , i the down side for me was that i think the pen is really noisy . so you have ka kaplunk , kaplunk , kaplunk . and i and i do n't know if it 's audible on the but i i sort of thought that was a disadvantage . i do take notes , i mean , i could be taking notes on these things and i guess the plus with the crosspads would be the time markings but i do n't know . phd d: uh , what is a crosspad ? professor b: so it 's it 's um it 's a regular pad , just a regular pad of paper but there 's this pen which indicates position . grad c: thank you . professor b: and so you have time and position stuff stored phd d: ok . professor b: so that you can you have a record of whatever it is you 've written . phd d: ok . grad h: and then you can download it and they have ocr and searching and all sorts of things . phd d: ok . ok . grad h: so i if you take notes it 's a great little device . postdoc a: could mm - hmm . grad h: but i do n't take notes , professor b: and one of the reasons that it was brought up originally was because uh we were interested in in higher - level things , grad h: so . professor b: not just the , you know , microphone stuff but also summarization and so forth and the question is if you were going to go to some gold standard of what wa what was it that happened in the meeting you know , where would it come from ? and um i think that was one of the things , phd d: yeah . phd g: yeah . grad h: yep . professor b: right ? and so the it seemed like a neat idea . we 'll have a you know , have a scribe , have somebody uh take good notes and then that 's part of the record of the meeting . and then we did it once or twice and we sort of grad h: yep , and then just sort of died out . professor b: probably chose the wrong scribe but it was it 's uh phd g: i mean grad h: yeah that 's right . postdoc a: well i did it one time grad h: yep . postdoc a: but um professor b: yeah . postdoc a: u but i guess the the other thing i 'm thinking is if we wanted that kind of thing i wonder if we 'd lose that much by having someone be a scribe by listening to the tape , to the recording afterwards and taking notes in some other interface . phd f: i mean we 're transcribing it anyways , why do we need notes ? postdoc a: oh it 's la it 's useful , grad h: because that 's summary . postdoc a: have a summary and high points . professor b: summary . phd g: i think there 's also there 's this use that phd f: summarize it from the transcription . phd g: the well , what if you 're sitting there and you just wan na make an x and you do n't wan na take notes and you 're you just wan na phd f: doodle . phd g: get the summary of the transcript from this time location like you know , and and then while you 're bored you do n't do anything and once in a while , maybe there 's a joke and you put a x and { comment } but in in other words you can use that just to highlight times in a very simple way . also with i was thinking and i know morgan disagrees with me on this but suppose you have a group in here and you wan na let them note whenever they think there might be something later that they might not wan na distribute in terms of content , they could just sort of make an x near that point or a question mark that sort of alerts them that when they get the transcript back they c could get some red flags in that transcript region and they can then look at it . so . i know we have n't been using it but i w i can imagine it being useful just for sort of marking time periods grad h: right . phd g: which you then get back in a transcript postdoc a: well . professor b: i guess so , you know , what what makes one think i is maybe we should actually schedule some periods where people go over something later phd g: so . professor b: and and and put some kind of summary or something uh you know , some there 'd be some scribe who would actually listen , w who 'd agreed to actually listen to the whole thing , not transcribe it , but just sort of write down things that struck them as important . but then you do n't you do n't have the time reference uh that you 'd have if you had it live . phd g: right . and you do n't have a lot of other cues that might be useful , professor b: yeah . phd f: how do you synchronize the time in the crosspad and the time of the recording ? phd g: so . grad h: i mean that was one of the issues we talked about originally and that that 's w part of the difficulty is that we need an infrastructure for using the time the crosspads and so that means synchronizing the time phd g: postdoc a: mm - hmm . grad h: you know you want it pretty close and there 's a fair amount of skew because it 's a hand - held unit with a battery postdoc a: well when when i d grad h: and so you postdoc a: ok . grad h: so you have to synchronize at the beginning of each meeting all the pads that are being used , so that it 's synchronized with the time on that and then you have to download to an application , and then you have to figure out what the data formats are and convert it over if you wan na do anything with this information . postdoc a: w mm - hmm . phd e: why grad h: and so there 's a lot of infrastructure which postdoc a: there is an alternative . grad h: unless someone postdoc a: there is an alternative , i mean , it 's still , there 's uh you know , your point stands about there be needing to be an infrastructure , but it does n't have to be synchronized with the little clock 's timer on it . you c i mean , i when i when i did it i synchronized it by voice , by whispering `` one , two , three , four `` onto the microphone grad h: hmm . postdoc a: and uh , you know . grad h: well , but then there 's the infrastructure at the other end phd e: right . grad h: which someone has to listen to that and find that point , postdoc a: yeah , it 's transcribed . it 's in the transcript . grad h: and then mark it . postdoc a: yeah . grad h: so . postdoc a: well it 's in the transcript . phd g: well , could we keep one of these things for another year ? would h i mean is there a big cau grad h: we can keep all both of them for the whole whole year . phd g: just just in case we grad h: i mean , it 's just phd g: even maybe some of the transcribers who might be wanting to annotate uh f just there 's a bunch of things that might be neat to do but i it might not be the case that we can actually synchronize them and then do all the infrastructure but we could at least try it out . professor b: well one thing that we might try um is on some set of meetings , some collection of meetings , maybe edu is the right one or maybe something else , we we get somebody to buy into the idea of doing this as part of the task . i mean , phd g: right . professor b: uh part of the reason i think part of the reason that adam was so interested in uh the speechcorder sort of f idea from the beginning is he said from the beginning he hated taking notes and grad h: yep . professor b: and so forth so and and jane is more into it but eh uh you know i do n't know if you wan na really do do this all the time so i think the thing is to to get someone to actually buy into it and have at least some series of meetings where we do it . um and if so , it 's probably worth having one . the p the the problem with the the more extended view , all these other you know with uh quibbling about particular applications of it is that it looks like it 's hard to get people to um uh routinely use it , i mean it just has n't happened anyway . but maybe if we can get a person to phd g: yeah i do n't think it has to be part of a what everybody does in a meeting but it might be a useful , neat part of the project that we can , you know , show off as a mechanism for synchronizing events in time that happen that you just wan na make a note of , like what jane was talking about with some later browsing , just just as a convenience , even if it 's not a full - blown note taking substitute . phd e: well if you wanted to do that maybe the right architecture for it is to get a pda with a wireless card . and and that way you can synchronize very easily with the the the meeting because you 'll be synchroni you can synchronize with the the linux server and uh phd g: so what kind of input would you be ? phd e: so so , i mean , if you 're not worried about grad h: buttons . phd g: you 'd just be pressing like a a phd e: well well you have a pda and may and you could have the same sort of x interface or whatever , i mean , you 'd have to do a little eh a little bit of coding to do it . phd g: mm - hmm . phd e: but you could imagine , phd g: yeah , that be good . phd e: i mean , if if all you really wanted was you did n't want this secondary note - taking channel but just sort of being able to use m markers of some sort , a pda with a l a wireless card would be the probably the right way to go . i mean even buttons you could do , sort of , i mean , as you said . grad h: i mean for what what you 've been describing buttons would be even more convenient than anything else , phd g: m right . phd e: right . phd g: that would be fine too . grad h: right ? you have the phd g: i mean , i do n't have , you know , grandiose ideas in mind but i 'm just sort of thinking well we 've we 're getting into the next year now and we have a lot of these things worked out at in terms of the speech maybe somebody will be interested in this and postdoc a: i like this pda idea . yeah . professor b: yeah , i do like the idea of having a couple buttons phd g: yeah . grad h: well i 'm sure there would postdoc a: yeah . professor b: where like one one button was `` uh - oh `` and then another button was `` that 's great `` and another button `` that 's f `` phd g: or like this is my `` i 'm supposed to do this `` kind of button , postdoc a: yeah . phd g: like `` i better remember to `` grad h: action item . phd g: yeah something like that or postdoc a: and then grad h: i mean i think the crosspad idea is a good one . postdoc a: uh - huh . grad h: it 's just a question of getting people to use it and getting the infrastructure set up in such a way that it 's not a lot of extra work . i mean that 's part of the reason why it has n't happened is that it 's been a lot of extra work for me phd g: yeah . professor b: right . postdoc a: well , and not just for you . grad h: and postdoc a: but it 's also , it has this problem of having to go from an analog to a d a digital record too , phd g: w postdoc a: does n't it ? i mean grad h: well it 's digital but it 's in a format that is not particularly standard . postdoc a: but i mean , say , if i if if you 're writing if you 're writing notes in it does it it ca n't do handwriting recognition , right ? professor b: no , no , but it 's just it 's just storing the pixel informa position information , postdoc a: ok . professor b: it 's all digital . postdoc a: i i guess what i 'm thinking is that the pda solution you h you have it already without needing to go from the pixelization to a to a i mean professor b: right . you do n't have to phd e: the transfer function is less errorful , postdoc a: oh , nicely put . professor b: yeah . phd e: yes . phd g: yeah , yeah . professor b: yeah . yeah . phd g: well it also it 's maybe realistic cuz people are supposed to be bringing their p d as to the meeting eventually , right ? that 's why we have this little i do n't know what i do n't wan na cause more work for anyone but i can imagine some interesting things that you could do with it and so if we do n't have to return it and we can keep it for a year i do n't know . grad h: well w we do n't we certainly do n't have to return it , as i said . all all he said is that if you 're not using it could you return it , if you are using it feel free to keep it . the point is that we have n't used it at all and are we going to ? professor b: so we have no but uh by i i would suggest you return one . because we we you know , we we have n't used it at all . phd g: yeah . grad h: ok . phd g: we c professor b: we have some aspirations of using them phd g: one would probably be fine . professor b: and phd g: maybe we could do like a student project , you know , maybe someone who wants to do this as their main like s project for something would be cool . professor b: yeah . grad h: yep . i mean if we had them out and sitting on the table people might use them a little more professor b: maybe jeremy could sit in some meetings and press a button when there when when somebody laughed . grad h: although there is a little phd g: well , i 'm yeah , that 's not a bad professor b: yeah , yeah . yeah . phd g: jeremy 's gon na be an he 's a new student starting on modeling brea breath and laughter , actually , which sounds funny but i think it should be cool , professor b: yeah . phd g: so . grad h: sounds breathy to me . phd g: ok . `` ha - ha - ha . `` grad h: breath and lau `` ha - ha - ha - ha `` . `` ha - ha - ha - ha . `` professor b: well dear . grad h: um . professor b: hmm . grad h: that reminded me of something . oh well , too late . it slipped out . professor b: ok . phd g: you 're you 're gon na tease me ? grad h: oh , equipment . phd g: ok . grad h: ordered uh , well i 'm always gon na do that . w uh { comment } we ordered uh more wireless , and so they should be coming in at some point . phd g: great . grad h: and then at the same time i 'll probably rewire the room as per jane 's suggestion so that uh the first n channels are wireless , eh are the m the close - talking and the next n are far - field . professor b: you know what he means but is n't that funny sounding ? `` we ordered more wireless . `` it 's like wires are the things so you 're wiring you 're you 're you we 're we ordered more absence of the thing . phd g: that 's a very philosophical statement from morgan . grad h: wired less , wired more . phd g: i just it 's sort of a anachronism , i mean it 's like it 's great . professor b: anyway . grad h: should we do digits ? do we have anything else ? professor b: yeah . postdoc a: ok . professor b: i mean there 's there 's all this stuff going on uh between uh andreas and and and dave and chuck and others with various kinds of runs uh um recognition runs , trying to figure things out about the features but it 's it 's all sort of in process , so there 's not much to say right now . uh why do n't we start with our our esteemed guest . phd e: ok . alright . grad h: so just the transcript number and then the then the phd e: this is yes , this is number two for me today . professor b: see all you have to do is go away to move way up in the phd e: oh . phd g: we could do simultaneous . initiate him . professor b: we we could . grad h: should we do simultaneous ? phd g: well , i 'm just thinking , are you gon na try to save the data before this next group comes in ? professor b: yeah . grad h: yeah , absolutely . phd g: yeah , so we might wan na do it simultaneous . grad h: i mean you hav sorta have to . professor b: well ok , so let 's do one of those simultaneous ones . phd g: right , so so we might n we might need to do that actually . professor b: that sounds good . grad h: ok . phd e: ok . professor b: everybody ready ? postdoc a: yeah . professor b: a one . phd g: you have to plug your ears , by the way uh eric , grad h: well i have to , phd d: you do n't have to . phd e: ok , alright . phd g: or or you start laughing . grad h: i do n't know about other people . professor b: ok , a one and a two and a three . ok , babble , take five .

the postdoc thought that it was a good idea to collect digital notes during the meeting in principle , but was concerned about the noise it would add to the mic . postdoc thought that notes could even be taken after the meeting , by transcribers . all in all , he thought notes were useful for generating summaries .

summarize the meeting </s> phd b: ok . we 're on . grad e: hello ? professor a: ok , so uh had some interesting mail from uh dan ellis . actually , i think he he redirected it to everybody also so uh the pda mikes uh have a big bunch of energy at at uh five hertz uh where this came up was that uh i was showing off these wave forms that we have on the web and and uh i just sort of had n't noticed this , but that the major , major component in the wave in the second wave form in that pair of wave forms is actually the air conditioner . grad c: huh . professor a: so . so . i i have to be more careful about using that as a as a as a good illustration , uh , in fact it 's not , of uh of the effects of room reverberation . it is is n't a bad illustration of the effects of uh room noise . on on uh some mikes uh but so . and then we had this other discussion about um whether this affects the dynamic range , cuz i know , although we start off with thirty two bits , you end up with uh sixteen bits and you know , are we getting hurt there ? but uh dan is pretty confident that we 're not , that that quantization error is not is still not a significant factor there . so . so there was a question of whether we should change things here , whether we should change a capacitor on the input box for that or whether we should phd b: yeah , he suggested a smaller capacitor , right ? professor a: right . but then i had some other uh thing discussions with him phd b: for the p d professor a: and the feeling was once we start monk monkeying with that , uh , many other problems could ha happen . and additionally we we already have a lot of data that 's been collected with that , so . phd b: yeah . professor a: a simple thing to do is he he he has a i forget if it this was in that mail or in the following mail , but he has a a simple filter , a digital filter that he suggested . we just run over the data before we deal with it . phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: um the other thing that i do n't know the answer to , but when people are using feacalc here , uh whether they 're using it with the high - pass filter option or not . and i do n't know if anybody knows . grad e: um . i could go check . professor a: but . yeah . so when we 're doing all these things using our software there is um if it 's if it 's based on the rasta - plp program , which does both plp and rasta - plp um then uh there is an option there which then comes up through to feacalc which um allows you to do high - pass filtering and in general we like to do that , because of things like this and it 's it 's pretty it 's not a very severe filter . does n't affect speech frequencies , even pretty low speech frequencies , at all , but it 's phd b: what 's the cut - off frequency it used ? professor a: oh . i do n't know i wrote this a while ago phd b: is it like twenty ? professor a: something like that . phd b: yeah . professor a: yeah . i mean i think there 's some effect above twenty but it 's it 's it 's it 's mild . so , i mean it probably there 's probably some effect up to a hundred hertz or something but it 's it 's pretty mild . i do n't know in the in the strut implementation of the stuff is there a high - pass filter or a pre pre - emphasis or something in the phd f: uh . i think we use a pre - emphasis . yeah . yeah . professor a: so . we we we want to go and check that in i for anything that we 're going to use the p d a mike for . uh he says that there 's a pretty good roll off in the pzm mikes so we do n't need need to worry about them one way or the other but if we do make use of the cheap mikes , uh we want to be sure to do that that filtering before we process it . and then again if it 's uh depending on the option that the our our software is being run with , it 's it 's quite possible that 's already being taken care of . uh but i also have to pick a different picture to show the effects of reverberation . uh phd b: did somebody notice it during your talk ? professor a: uh no . phd b: huh . professor a: well . uh well . if they made output they were they were , you know they were nice . phd b: did n't say anything ? professor a: but . i mean the thing is it was since i was talking about reverberation and showing this thing that was noise , it was n't a good match , but it certainly was still uh an indication of the fact that you get noise with distant mikes . uh it 's just not a great example because not only is n't it reverberation but it 's a noise that we definitely know what to do . phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: so , i mean , it does n't take deep a new bold new methods to get rid of uh five hertz noise , so . phd b: yeah . professor a: um uh but . so it was it was a bad example in that way , but it 's it still is it 's the real thing that we did get out of the microphone at distance , so it was n't it w it w was n't wrong it was inappropriate . so . so uh , but uh , yeah , someone noticed it later pointed it out to me , and i went `` oh , man . why did n't i notice that ? `` phd b: hmm . professor a: um . so . um so i think we 'll change our our picture on the web , when we 're @ @ . one of the things i was i mean , i was trying to think about what what 's the best way to show the difference an and i had a couple of thoughts one was , that spectrogram that we show is o k , but the thing is the eyes uh and the the brain behind them are so good at picking out patterns from from noise that in first glance you look at them it does n't seem like it 's that bad uh because there 's many features that are still preserved . so one thing to do might be to just take a piece of the spec uh of the spectrogram where you can see that something looks different , an and blow it up , and have that be the part that 's just to show as well . you know . phd b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor a: i i some things are going to be hurt . um another , i was thinking of was um taking some spectral slices , like uh like we look at with the recognizer , and look at the spectrum or cepstrum that you get out of there , and the the uh , um , the reverberation uh does make it does change that . and so maybe maybe that would be more obvious . phd b: hmm . grad c: spectral slices ? professor a: yeah . grad c: w w what d what do you mean ? professor a: well , i mean um all the recognizers look at frames . so they they look at phd b: so like one instant in time . professor a: yeah , look at a grad c: ok . professor a: so it 's , yeah , at one point in time or uh twenty over twenty milliseconds or something , you have a spectrum or a cepstrum . grad c: ok . professor a: that 's what i meant by a slice . grad c: i see . professor a: yeah . and if you look at phd b: you could just you could just throw up , you know , uh the uh some mfcc feature vectors . you know , one from one , one from the other , and then , you know , you can look and see how different the numbers are . professor a: right . well , that 's why i saying either well , either spectrum or cepstrum phd b: i 'm just kidding . professor a: but but i think the thing is you wan na phd b: i do n't mean a graph . i mean the actual numbers . professor a: oh . i see . oh . that would be lovely , yeah . phd b: yeah . `` see how different these sequences of numbers are ? `` professor a: yeah . or i could just add them up and get a different total . phd b: yeah . it 's not the square . professor a: ok . uh . what else wh what 's what else is going on ? phd f: uh , yeah . yeah , at first i had a remark why i am wondering why the pda is always so far . i mean we are always meeting at the beginning of the table and the pda 's there . professor a: uh . i guess cuz we have n't wanted to move it . we we could we could move us , phd f: yeah ? professor a: and . phd f: ok . grad e: that 's right . phd f: well , anyway . um . yeah , so . uh . since the last meeting we 've we 've tried to put together um the clean low - pass um downsampling , upsampling , i mean , uh the new filter that 's replacing the lda filters , and also the um delay issue so that we considered th the the delay issue on the for the on - line normalization . mmm . so we 've put together all this and then we have results that are not um very impressive . well , there is no real improvement . professor a: but it 's not wer worse and it 's better better latency , phd f: it 's not professor a: right ? phd f: yeah . yeah . well . actually it 's better . it seems better when we look at the mismatched case but i think we are like like cheated here by the th this problem that uh in some cases when you modify slight slightly modify the initial condition you end up completely somewhere air somewhere else in the in the space , the parameters . professor a: yeah . phd f: so . well . the other system are for instance . for italian is at seventy - eight percent recognition rate on the mismatch , and this new system has eighty - nine . but i do n't think it indicates something , really . i do n't i do n't think it means that the new system is more robust professor a: uh - huh . phd f: or it 's simply the fact that well . professor a: well , the test would be if you then tried it on one of the other test sets , if if it was phd f: y professor a: right . so this was italian , right ? phd f: yeah . yeah . professor a: so then if you take your changes phd f: it 's similar for other test sets professor a: and then phd f: but i mean from this se seventy - eight um percent recognition rate system , i could change the transition probabilities for the the first hmm and it will end up to eighty - nine also . professor a: uh - huh . phd f: by using point five instead of point six , point four as in the the htk script . professor a: uh - huh . yeah . phd f: so . well . that 's phd b: yeah . yeah i looked at um looked at the results when stephane did that phd f: well . eh uh phd b: and it 's it 's really wo really happens . phd f: this really happens . phd b: i mean th the only difference is you change the self - loop transition probability by a tenth of a percent phd f: yeah . professor a: yeah . phd b: and it causes ten percent difference in the word error rate . professor a: a tenth of a per cent . phd b: yeah . from point phd f: even tenth of a percent ? phd b: i i 'm sorry phd f: well , we tried we tried point one , phd b: f for point from you change at point one phd f: yeah . professor a: oh ! phd b: and n not tenth of a percent , one tenth , phd f: hmm . professor a: yeah . phd b: alright ? um so from point five so from point six to point five and you get ten percent better . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: and it 's i think it 's what you basically hypothesized in the last meeting about uh it just being very phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: and i think you mentioned this in your email too it 's just very um phd f: mmm , yeah . phd b: you know get stuck in some local minimum and this thing throws you out of it i guess . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: well , what 's what are according to the rules what what are we supposed to do about the transition probabilities ? are they supposed to be point five or point six ? phd b: i think you 're not allowed to yeah . that 's supposed to be point six , for the self - loop . phd f: yeah . professor a: point it 's supposed to be point six . phd b: yeah . but changing it to point five i think is which gives you much better results , but that 's not allowed . professor a: but not allowed ? yeah . ok . phd b: yeah . phd f: yeah , but even if you use point five , i 'm not sure it will always give you the better results phd b: yeah . phd f: on other test set or it phd b: right . we only tested it on the the medium mismatch , phd f: on the other training set , i mean . phd b: right ? you said on the other cases you did n't notice phd f: yeah . but . i think , yeah . i think the reason is , yeah , i not i it was in my mail i think also , is the fact that the mismatch is trained only on the far microphone . well , in for the mismatched case everything is um using the far microphone training and testing , whereas for the highly mismatched , training is done on the close microphone so it 's it 's clean speech basically so you do n't have this problem of local minima probably and for the well - match , it 's a mix of close microphone and distant microphone and well . phd b: i did notice uh something phd f: so th i think the mismatch is the more difficult for the training part . phd b: somebody , i think it was morgan , suggested at the last meeting that i actually count to see how many parameters and how many frames . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: and there are uh almost one point eight million frames of training data and less than forty thousand parameters in the baseline system . professor a: hmm . phd f: yeah . phd b: so it 's very , very few parameters compared to how much training data . professor a: well . yes . phd d: mm - hmm . professor a: so . and that that says that we could have lots more parameters actually . phd b: yeah . yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: i did one quick experiment just to make sure i had everything worked out and i just uh f for most of the um for for all of the digit models , they end up at three mixtures per state . and so i just did a quick experiment , where i changed it so it went to four and um it it it did n't have a r any significant effect at the uh medium mismatch and high mismatch cases and it had it was just barely significant for the well - matched better . uh so i 'm r gon na run that again but um with many more uh mixtures per state . professor a: yeah . cuz at forty thou i mean you could you could have uh yeah , easily four times as many parameters . phd b: mm - hmm . and i think also just seeing what we saw uh in terms of the expected duration of the silence model ? when we did this tweaking of the self - loop ? the silence model expected duration was really different . phd f: yeah . phd b: and so in the case where um it had a better score , the silence model expected duration was much longer . phd f: yeah . phd b: so it was like it was a better match . i think you know if we make a better silence model i think that will help a lot too um for a lot of these cases so but one one thing i i wanted to check out before i increased the um number of mixtures per state was uh in their default training script they do an initial set of three re - estimations and then they built the silence model and then they do seven iterations then the add mixtures and they do another seven then they add mixtures then they do a final set of seven and they quit . seven seems like a lot to me and it also makes the experiments go take a really long time i mean to do one turn - around of the well matched case takes like a day . professor a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd b: and so you know in trying to run these experiments i notice , you know , it 's difficult to find machines , you know , compute the run on . and so one of the things i did was i compiled htk for the linux machines professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: cuz we have this one from ibm that 's got like five processors in it ? professor a: right . phd b: and so now i 'm you can run stuff on that and that really helps a lot because now we 've got you know , extra machines that we can use for compute . and if i 'm do running an experiment right now where i 'm changing the number of iterations ? from seven to three ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor a: yeah . phd b: just to see how it affects the baseline system . and so if we can get away with just doing three , we can do many more experiments more quickly . and if it 's not a a huge difference from running with seven iterations , um , you know , we should be able to get a lot more experiments done . phd f: hmm . phd b: and so . i 'll let you know what what happens with that . but if we can you know , run all of these back - ends f with many fewer iterations and on linux boxes we should be able to get a lot more experimenting done . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: so . so i wanted to experiment with cutting down the number of iterations before i increased the number of gaussians . professor a: right . sorry . so um , how 's it going on the phd f: um . professor a: so . you you did some things . they did n't improve things in a way that convinced you you 'd substantially improved anything . phd f: yeah . professor a: but they 're not making things worse and we have reduced latency , right ? phd f: yeah . but actually um actually it seems to do a little bit worse for the well - matched case and we just noticed that yeah , actually the way the final score is computed is quite funny . it 's not a mean of word error rate . it 's not a weighted mean of word error rate , it 's a weighted mean of improvements . professor a: uh - huh . phd f: so . which means that actually the weight on the well - matched is well i well what what what happened is that if you have a small improvement or a small if on the well - matched case it will have uh huge influence on the improvement compared to the reference because the reference system is is is quite good for for the well - ma well - matched case also . phd b: so it it weights the improvement on the well - matched case really heavily compared to the improvement on the other cases ? phd f: no , but it 's the weighting of the of the improvement not of the error rate . phd b: yeah . yeah , and it 's hard to improve on the on the best case , cuz it 's already so good , right ? phd f: yeah but what i mean is that you can have a huge improvement on the h hmk 's , uh like five percent uh absolute , and this will not affect the final score almost uh this will almost not affect the final score because this improvement because the improvement uh relative to the the baseline is small professor a: so they do improvement in terms of uh accuracy ? rather than word error rate ? phd f: uh . uh improvement ? professor a: so phd f: no , it 's compared to the word er it 's improvement on the word error rate , professor a: ok . phd f: yeah . sorry . professor a: so if you have uh ten percent error and you get five percent absolute uh improvement then that 's fifty percent . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: ok . so what you 're saying then is that if it 's something that has a small word error rate , then uh a even a relatively small improvement on it , in absolute terms , will show up as quite quite large in this . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: is that what you 're saying ? phd f: yeah . professor a: yes . phd f: yeah . professor a: ok . but yeah that 's that 's it 's the notion of relative improvement . word error rate . phd f: yeah . sure , but when we think about the weighting , which is point five , point three , point two , it 's on absolute on on relative figures , professor a: yeah . phd f: not professor a: yeah . phd f: so when we look at this error rate professor a: no . that 's why i 've been saying we should be looking at word error rate uh and and not not at at accuracies . phd f: uh mmm , yeah . mmm , yeah . professor a: it 's phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: i mean uh we probably should have standardized on that all the way through . it 's just phd b: well . phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean , it 's not it 's not that different , right ? i mean , just subtract the accuracy . professor a: yeah but you 're but when you look at the numbers , your sense of the relative size of things is quite different . phd b: i mean oh . oh , i see . yeah . professor a: if you had ninety percent uh correct and five percent , five over ninety does n't look like it 's a big difference , but five over ten is is big . phd b: mm - hmm . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: so just when we were looking at a lot of numbers and getting sense of what was important . phd b: i see . i see . yeah . that makes sense . professor a: um . phd f: mmm . professor a: um . phd f: well anyway uh . so . yeah . so it hurts a little bit on the well - match and yeah . professor a: what 's a little bit ? like phd f: like , it 's difficult to say because again um i 'm not sure i have the um phd b: hey morgan ? do you remember that signif program that we used to use for testing signi ? is that still valid ? i i 've been using that . professor a: yeah . yeah , it was actually updated . phd b: ok . professor a: uh . jeff updated it some years ago phd b: oh , it was . oh , i shoul professor a: and and uh cleaned it up made some things better in it . so . phd b: ok . i should find that new one . i just use my old one from ninety - two or whatever professor a: yeah , i 'm sure it 's not that different but but he he uh he was a little more rigorous , as i recall . phd b: ok . phd f: right . so it 's around , like , point five . no , point six { comment } uh percent absolute on italian professor a: worse . phd f: worse , yep . professor a: out of what ? i mean . s phd f: uh well we start from ninety - four point sixty - four , and we go to ninety - four point o four . professor a: uh - huh . so that 's six six point th phd f: uh . phd b: ninety - three point six four , right ? is the baseline . phd f: oh , no , i 've ninety - four . oh , the baseline , you mean . phd b: yeah . phd f: well i do n't i 'm not talking about the baseline here . phd b: oh . oh . i 'm sorry . phd f: i uh my baseline is the submitted system . phd b: ah ! ok . ah , ah . phd f: hmm . professor a: yeah . phd b: sorry . phd f: oh yeah . for finnish , we start to ninety - three point eight - four and we go to ninety - three point seventy - four . and for spanish we are we were at ninety - five point o five and we go to ninety - three - s point sixty one . professor a: ok , so we are getting hurt somewhat . phd f: so . professor a: and is that wh what do you know what piece you 've done several changes here . uh , do you know what pie phd f: yeah . i guess i guess it 's it 's the filter . because nnn , well uh we do n't have complete result , but the filter so the filter with the shorter delay hurts on italian well - matched , which and , yeah . and the other things , like um downsampling , upsampling , do n't seem to hurt and the new on - line normalization , neither . phd b: i 'm phd f: so . phd b: i 'm really confused about something . if we saw that making a small change like , you know , a tenth , to the self - loop had a huge effect , can we really make any conclusions about differences in this stuff ? phd f: mm - hmm . yeah that 's th yeah . phd b: i mean , especially when they 're this small . i mean . phd f: i think we can be completely fooled by this thing , but i do n't know . professor a: well , yeah . phd f: so . there is first this thing , and then the yeah , i computed the um like , the confidence level on the different test sets . and for the well - matched they are around um point six uh percent . for the mismatched they are around like let 's say one point five percent . and for the well - m uh hm they are also around one point five . professor a: but ok , so you these these degradations you were talking about were on the well - matched case phd f: so . professor a: uh . do the does the new filter make things uh better or worse for the other cases ? phd f: yeah . but . uh . about the same . it does n't hurt . yeah . professor a: does n't hurt , but does n't get a little better , or something . phd f: no . professor a: no . ok , so um i guess the argument one might make is that , `` yeah , if you looked at one of these cases and you jiggle something and it changes then uh you 're not quite sure what to make of it . but when you look across a bunch of these and there 's some some pattern , um i mean , so eh h here 's all the if if in all these different cases it never gets better , and there 's significant number of cases where it gets worse , then you 're probably hurting things , i would say . so um i mean at the very least that would be a reasonably prediction of what would happen with with a different test set , that you 're not jiggling things with . so i guess the question is if you can do better than this . if you can if we can approximate the old numbers while still keeping the latency down . phd f: mmm . yeah . professor a: uh , so . um . what i was asking , though , is uh are what 's what 's the level of communication with uh the o g i gang now , about this and phd f: well , we are exchanging mail as soon as we we have significant results . professor a: yeah . phd f: um . yeah . for the moment , they are working on integrating the um spectral subtraction apparently from ericsson . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: um . yeah . and so . yeah . we are working on our side on other things like uh also trying a sup spectral subtraction but of of our own , i mean , another spectral substraction . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: um . yeah . so i think it 's it 's ok . it 's going professor a: is there any further discussion about this this idea of of having some sort of source code control ? phd f: yeah . well . for the moment they 're uh everybody 's quite um there is this eurospeech deadline , so . professor a: i see . phd f: um . and . yeah . but yeah . as soon as we have something that 's significant and that 's better than than what was submitted , we will fix fix the system and but we 've not discussed it it it this yet , yeah . professor a: yeah . sounds like a great idea but but i think that that um he 's saying people are sort of scrambling for a eurospeech deadline . phd f: mmm . professor a: but that 'll be uh , uh done in a week . so , maybe after this next one . phd f: yeah . phd b: wow ! already a week ! man ! professor a: yeah . phd b: you 're right . that 's amazing . professor a: yeah . anybo - anybody in the in this group do doing anything for eurospeech ? phd f: s professor a: or , is that what is that phd f: yeah we are we are trying to to do something with the meeting recorder digits , professor a: right . phd f: and but yeah . yeah . and the good thing is that there is this first deadline , professor a: yeah . phd f: and , well , some people from ogi are working on a paper for this , but there is also the um special session about th aurora which is uh which has an extended deadline . so . the deadline is in may . professor a: for uh oh , for eurospeech ? phd f: for th yeah . professor a: oh ! phd f: so f only for the experiments on aurora . so it it 's good , professor a: oh , a special dispensation . phd f: yeah . professor a: that 's great . phd b: mm - hmm . where is eurospeech this year ? phd f: it 's in denmark . professor a: aalborg aalborg uh phd b: oh . professor a: so the deadline when 's the deadline ? when 's the deadline ? phd f: hmm ? i think it 's the thirteenth of may . professor a: that 's great ! it 's great . so we should definitely get something in for that . phd f: yeah . professor a: but on meeting digits , maybe there 's maybe . phd f: yeah . professor a: maybe . phd f: so it would be for the first deadline . professor a: yeah . phd f: nnn . professor a: yeah . so , i mean , i i think that you could certainly start looking at at the issue uh but but uh i think it 's probably , on s from what stephane is saying , it 's it 's unlikely to get sort of active participation from the two sides until after they 've phd b: well i could at least well , i 'm going to be out next week but i could try to look into like this uh cvs over the web . that seems to be a very popular way of people distributing changes and over , you know , multiple sites and things professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: so maybe if i can figure out how do that easily and then pass the information on to everybody so that it 's you know , as easy to do as possible and and people do n't it wo n't interfere with { comment } their regular work , then maybe that would be good . and i think we could use it for other things around here too . so . professor a: good . grad c: that 's cool . and if you 're interested in using cvs , i 've set it up here , phd b: oh great . grad c: so . phd b: ok . grad c: um j phd b: i used it a long time ago but it 's been a while so maybe i can ask you some questions . grad c: oh . so . i 'll be away tomorrow and monday but i 'll be back on tuesday or wednesday . phd b: ok . professor a: yeah . dave , the other thing , actually , is is this business about this wave form . maybe you and i can talk a little bit at some point about coming up with a better uh demonstration of the effects of reverberation for our web page , cuz uh the uh um i mean , actually the the uh it made a good good audio demonstration because when we could play that clip the the the really obvious difference is that you can hear two voices and in the second one and only hear phd b: maybe we could just like , talk into a cup . professor a: yeah . phd b: some good reverb . professor a: no , i mean , it sound it sounds pretty reverberant , but i mean you ca n't when you play it back in a room with a you know a big room , nobody can hear that difference really . grad c: yeah . professor a: they hear that it 's lower amplitude and they hear there 's a second voice , grad c: uh - huh . professor a: um but uh that actually that makes for a perfectly good demo because that 's a real obvious thing , that you hear two voices . phd b: but not of reverberation . professor a: yeah . grad c: a boom . professor a: well that that that 's ok . but for the the visual , just , you know , i 'd like to have uh uh , you know , the spectrogram again , grad c: yeah . professor a: because you 're you 're you 're visual uh abilities as a human being are so good you can pick out you know , you you look at the good one , you look at the cru the screwed up one , and and you can see the features in it without trying to @ @ phd b: i noticed that in the pictures . professor a: yeah . phd b: i thought `` hey , you know th `` i my initial thought was `` this is not too bad ! `` professor a: right . but you have to you know , if you look at it closely , you see `` well , here 's a place where this one has a big formant uh uh formant maj major formants here are are moving quite a bit . `` and then you look in the other one and they look practically flat . phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: so i mean you could that 's why i was thinking , in a section like that , you could take a look look at just that part of the spectrogram and you could say `` oh yeah . this this really distorted it quite a bit . `` phd b: yeah . the main thing that struck me in looking at those two spectrograms was the difference in the high frequencies . it looked like for the one that was farther away , you know , it really everything was attenuated professor a: right . phd b: and i mean that was the main visual thing that i noticed . professor a: right . but it 's it 's uh so . yeah . so there are clearly are spectral effects . since you 're getting all this indirect energy , then a lot of it does have have uh reduced high frequencies . but um the other thing is the temporal courses of things really are changed , and and uh we want to show that , in some obvious way . the reason i put the wave forms in there was because uh they they do look quite different . uh . and so i thought `` oh , this is good . `` but i i just uh after after uh they were put in there i did n't really look at them anymore , cuz i just they were different . so i want something that has a is a more interesting explanation for why they 're different . um . grad c: oh . so maybe we can just substitute one of these wave forms and um then do some kind of zoom in on the spectrogram on an interesting area . professor a: something like that . yeah . grad c: uh - huh . professor a: the other thing that we had in there that i did n't like was that um the most obvious characteristic of the difference uh when you listen to it is that there 's a second voice , and the the the the the uh cuts that we have there actually do n't correspond to the full wave form . it 's just the first i think there was something where he was having some trouble getting so much in , or . i i forget the reason behind it . but it it 's um it 's the first six seconds or something of it and it 's in the seventh or eighth second or something where @ @ the second voice comes in . so we we would like to actually see the voice coming in , too , i think , since that 's the most obvious thing when you listen to it . grad c: mm - hmm . professor a: so . um . phd f: uh , yeah . yeah . i brought some i do n't know if some figures here . well . i start we started to work on spectral subtraction . and um the preliminary results were very bad . professor a: uh - huh . phd f: so the thing that we did is just to add spectral subtraction before this , the wall uh process , which contains lda on - line normalization . and it hurts uh a lot . professor a: uh - huh . phd f: and so we started to look at at um things like this , which is , well , it 's yeah . so you have the c - zero parameters for one uh italian utterance . phd d: you can @ @ . phd f: and i plotted this for two channels . channel zero is the close mic microphone , and channel one is the distant microphone . and it 's perfectly synchronized , so . and the sentence contain only one word , which is `` due `` and it ca n't clearly be seen . where where is it ? professor a: uh - huh . phd f: where is the word ? phd b: this is this is , grad e: hmm . phd b: oh , a plot of c - zero , phd f: so . phd b: the energy . phd f: this is a plot of c - zero , uh when we do n't use spectral substraction , and when there is no on - line normalization . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: so . there is just some filtering with the lda and and some downsampling , upsampling . phd b: c - zero is the close talking ? phd f: so . phd b: uh the close channel ? phd f: yeah . yeah . phd b: and s channel one is the phd f: yeah . so c - zero is very clean , actually . phd b: yeah . phd f: uh then when we apply mean normalization it looks like the second figure , though it is not . which is good . well , the noise part is around zero professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: and and then the third figure is what happens when we apply mean normalization and variance normalization . so . what we can clearly see is that on the speech portion the two channel come becomes very close , but also what happens on the noisy portion is that the variance of the noise is professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: this is still being a plot of c - zero ? ok . phd f: yeah . this is still c - zero . phd b: can i ask um what does variance normalization do ? w what is the effect of that ? professor a: normalizes the variance . phd f: so it it yeah . phd b: i mean phd f: it normalized th the standard deviation . phd b: y yeah . phd f: so it phd b: no , i understand that , phd f: you you get an estimate of the standard deviation . phd b: but i mean phd f: that 's phd b: no . phd f: um phd b: no , i understand what it is , but i mean , what does it what 's what is phd f: yeah but . phd b: uh professor a: what 's the rationale ? phd b: we yeah . yeah . why why do it ? phd f: uh . professor a: well , i mean , because everything uh if you have a system based on gaussians , everything is based on means and variances . phd b: yeah . professor a: so if there 's an overall reason you know , it 's like uh if you were doing uh image processing and in some of the pictures you were looking at , uh there was a lot of light uh and and in some , there was low light , phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: you know , you would want to adjust for that in order to compare things . phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: and the variance is just sort of like the next moment , you know ? so uh what if um one set of pictures was taken uh so that throughout the course it was went through daylight and night uh um um ten times , another time it went thr i mean i is , you know , how how much how much vari phd b: oh , ok . professor a: or no . i guess a better example would be how much of the light was coming in from outside rather than artificial light . so if it was a lot if more was coming from outside , then there 'd be the bigger effect of the of the of the change in the so every mean every all all of the the parameters that you have , especially the variances , are going to be affected by the overall variance . phd b: oh , ok . uh - huh . professor a: and so , in principle , you if you remove that source , then , you know , you can phd b: i see . ok . so would the major effect is that you 're gon na get is by normalizing the means , professor a: that 's the first order but thing , phd b: but it may help first - order effects . professor a: but then the second order is is the variances phd b: and it may help to do the variance . ok . professor a: because , again , if you if you 're trying to distinguish between e and b phd b: ok . professor a: if it just so happens that the e 's were a more you know , were recorded when when the energy was was was larger or something , phd b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor a: or the variation in it was larger , uh than with the b 's , then this will be give you some some bias . phd b: professor a: so the it 's removing these sources of variability in the data that have nothing to do with the linguistic component . phd b: ok . phd f: mmm . phd b: gotcha . ok . sorry to interrupt . professor a: but the the uh but let me as ask ask you something . phd f: yep . and it and this professor a: i is if if you have a good voice activity detector , is n't is n't it gon na pull that out ? phd f: yeah . sure . if they are good . yeah . well what it it shows is that , yeah , perhaps a good voice activity detector is is good before on - line normalization and that 's what uh we 've already observed . but uh , yeah , voice activity detection is not an easy thing neither . phd b: but after you do this , after you do the variance normalization i mean . phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: i do n't know , it seems like this would be a lot easier than this signal to work with . phd f: yeah . so . what i notice is that , while i prefer to look at the second figure than at the third one , well , because you clearly see where speech is . professor a: yeah . phd b: yeah . phd f: but the problem is that on the speech portion , channel zero and channel one are more different than when you use variance normalization where channel zero and channel one become closer . professor a: right . phd b: but for the purposes of finding the speech phd f: and yeah , but here phd b: you 're more interested in the difference between the speech and the nonspeech , phd f: yeah . phd b: right ? phd f: yeah . so i think , yeah . for i th i think that it perhaps it shows that uh the parameters that the voice activity detector should use uh have to use should be different than the parameter that have to be used for speech recognition . professor a: yeah . so basically you want to reduce this effect . phd f: well , y professor a: so you can do that by doing the voi voice activity detection . you also could do it by spect uh spectral subtraction before the variance normalization , right ? phd f: yeah , but it 's not clear , yeah . professor a: so uh phd f: we so . well . it 's just to professor a: yeah . phd f: the the number that at that are here are recognition experiments on italian hm and mm with these two kinds of parameters . and , well , it 's better with variance normalization . professor a: yeah . yeah . so it does get better even though it looks ugly . phd f: uh professor a: ok . but does this have the voice activity detection in it ? phd f: yeah . professor a: ok . phd f: um . professor a: so . grad e: ok . phd b: where 's th phd f: but the fact is that the voice activity detector does n't work on channel one . so . yeah . professor a: uh - huh . phd b: where at what stage is the voice activity detector applied ? is it applied here or a after the variance normalization ? phd f: hmm ? professor a: spectral subtraction , i guess . phd b: or phd f: it 's applied before variance normalization . so it 's a good thing , phd b: oh . phd f: because i guess voice activity detection on this should could be worse . phd b: yeah . is it applied all the way back here ? phd f: it 's applied the um on , yeah , something like this , phd b: maybe that 's why it does n't work for channel one . phd f: yeah . perhaps , yeah . professor a: can i phd f: so we could perhaps do just mean normalization before vad . phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: mm - hmm . can i ask a , i mean a sort of top - level question , which is um `` if if most of what the ogi folk are working with is trying to integrate this other other uh spectral subtraction , why are we worrying about it ? `` phd f: mm - hmm . about ? spectral subtraction ? professor a: yeah . phd f: it 's just uh well it 's another they are trying to u to use the um the ericsson and we 're trying to use something something else . and . yeah , and also to understand what happens because professor a: ok . phd f: uh fff well . when we do spectral subtraction , actually , i think that this is the the two last figures . professor a: yeah . phd f: um . it seems that after spectral subtraction , speech is more emerging now uh than than before . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: speech is more what ? phd f: well , the difference between the energy of the speech and the energy of the n spectral subtrac subtracted noise portion is is larger . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: well , if you compare the first figure to this one actually the scale is not the same , but if you look at the the numbers um you clearly see that the difference between the c - zero of the speech and c - zero of the noise portion is larger . uh but what happens is that after spectral subtraction , you also increase the variance of this of c - zero . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: and so if you apply variance normalization on this , it completely sc screw everything . well . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: um . uh . yeah . so yeah . and what they did at ogi is just uh they do n't use on - line normalization , for the moment , on spectral subtraction and i think yeah . i think as soon as they will try on - line normalization there will be a problem . so yeah , we 're working on the same thing but i think uh with different different system and professor a: right . i mean , i the intellectually it 's interesting to work on things th uh one way or the other phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: but i 'm i 'm just wondering if um on the list of things that there are to do , if there are things that we wo n't do because we 've got two groups doing the same thing . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: um . that 's phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: um . just just asking . uh . i mean , it 's phd f: yeah , well , phd b: there also could be i mean . i can maybe see a reason f for both working on it too phd f: uh . phd b: if um you know , if if if you work on something else and and you 're waiting for them to give you spectral subtraction i mean it 's hard to know whether the effects that you get from the other experiments you do will carry over once you then bring in their spectral subtraction module . so it 's it 's almost like everything 's held up waiting for this one thing . i do n't know if that 's true or not , but i could see how phd f: mmm . professor a: i do n't know . phd b: maybe that 's what you were thinking . professor a: i do n't know . i mean , we still evidently have a latency reduction plan which which is n't quite what you 'd like it to be . that that seems like one prominent thing . and then uh were n't issues of of having a a second stream or something ? that was was it there was this business that , you know , we we could use up the full forty - eight hundred bits , and phd f: yeah . but i think they ' i think we want to work on this . they also want to work on this , so . uh . yeah . we we will try msg , but um , yeah . and they are t i think they want to work on the second stream also , but more with some kind of multi - band or , well , what they call trap or generalized trap . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: um . so . professor a: ok . do you remember when the next meeting is supposed to be ? the next uh phd f: it 's uh in june . professor a: in june . ok . phd f: yeah . professor a: yeah . um . yeah , the other thing is that you saw that that mail about uh the vad v a ds performing quite differently ? that that uh so um . this there was this experiment of uh `` what if we just take the baseline ? `` phd f: mmm . professor a: set uh of features , just mel cepstra , and you inc incorporate the different v a and it looks like the the french vad is actually uh better significantly better . phd b: improves the baseline ? professor a: yeah . yeah . phd f: yeah but i do n't know which vad they use . uh . if the use the small vad i th i think it 's on i think it 's easy to do better because it does n't work at all . so . i i do n't know which which one . it 's pratibha that that did this experiment . phd d: yeah . phd f: um . we should ask which vad she used . phd d: i do n't @ @ . he actually , i think that he say with the good vad of from ogi and with the alcatel vad . and the experiment was sometime better , sometime worse . phd f: yeah but i it 's uh i think you were talking about the other mail that used vad on the reference features . professor a: yes . phd f: yeah . professor a: and on that one , uh the french one is was better . phd d: i do n't remember . professor a: it was just better . phd d: mm - hmm . professor a: i mean it was enough better that that it would uh account for a fair amount of the difference between our performance , actually . phd f: mm - hmm . phd d: mm - hmm . professor a: so . uh . so if they have a better one , we should use it . i mean . you know ? it 's you ca n't work on everything . phd f: yeah . professor a: uh . uh . yeah . phd f: yeah , so we should find out if it 's really better . i mean if it the compared to the small or the big network . phd d: mm - hmm . professor a: yeah . phd f: and perhaps we can easily improve if if we put like mean normalization before the before the vad . because as as you 've mentioned . professor a: yeah . phd f: mmm . professor a: h hynek will be back in town uh the week after next , back back in the country . so . and start start organizing uh more visits and connections and so forth , phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and uh working towards june . phd f: yeah . phd d: also is stephane was thinking that maybe it was useful to f to think about uh voiced - unvoiced phd f: mm - hmm . phd d: to work uh here in voiced - unvoiced detection . phd f: yeah . yeah . phd d: and we are looking in the uh signal . phd f: yeah , my feeling is that um actually when we look at all the proposals , ev everybody is still using some kind of spectral envelope professor a: right . phd f: and um it 's professor a: no use of pitch uh basically . yeah . phd f: yeah , well , not pitch , but to look at the um fine at the at the high re high resolution spectrum . professor a: yeah . well , it phd f: so . we do n't necessarily want to find the the pitch of the of the sound but uh cuz i have a feeling that when we look when we look at the just at the envelope there is no way you can tell if it 's voiced and unvoiced , if there is some it 's it 's easy in clean speech because voiced sound are more low frequency and . so there would be more , professor a: yeah . phd f: uh there is the first formant , which is the larger and then voiced sound are more high frequencies cuz it 's frication and professor a: right . phd f: but , yeah . when you have noise there is no um if if you have a low frequency noise it could be taken for for voiced speech and . professor a: yeah , you can make these mistakes , phd f: so . professor a: but but phd b: is n't there some other phd f: s phd b: uh d phd f: so i think that it it would be good yeah , yeah , well , go go on . phd b: uh , i was just gon na say is n't there are n't are n't there lots of ideas for doing voice activity , or speech - nonspeech rather , { comment } um by looking at um , you know , uh i guess harmonics or looking across time professor a: well , i think he was talking about the voiced - unvoiced , though , phd f: mmm . professor a: right ? so , not the speech - nonspeech . phd b: yeah . well even with e professor a: yeah . phd b: uh w ah you know , uh even with the voiced - non voiced - unvoiced phd f: mmm . phd b: um i thought that you or somebody was talking about professor a: well . uh yeah . b we should let him finish what he w he was gon na say , phd f: so . phd b: ok . professor a: and phd b: so go ahead . phd f: um yeah , so yeah , i think if we try to develop a second stream well , there would be one stream that is the envelope and the second , it could be interesting to have that 's something that 's more related to the fine structure of the spectrum . and . yeah , so i do n't know . we were thinking about like using ideas from from larry saul , have a good voice detector , have a good , well , voiced - speech detector , that 's working on on the fft and uh professor a: u phd f: larry saul could be an idea . we were are thinking about just kind of uh taking the spectrum and computing the variance of of the high resolution spectrum and things like this . professor a: so u s u ok . so so many tell you something about that . uh we had a guy here some years ago who did some work on um making use of voicing information uh to help in reducing the noise . phd f: yeah ? professor a: so what he was doing is basically y you you do estimate the pitch . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and um you from that you you estimate or you estimate fine harmonic structure , whichev ei either way , it 's more or less the same . but uh the thing is that um you then can get rid of things that are not i if there is strong harmonic structure , you can throw away stuff that 's that 's non - harmonic . phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor a: and that that is another way of getting rid of part of the noise phd f: yeah . professor a: so um that 's something that is sort of finer , phd f: yeah . professor a: brings in a little more information than just spectral subtraction . um . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and he had some i mean , he did that sort of in combination with rasta . it was kind of like rasta was taking care of convolutional stuff phd f: mmm . professor a: and he was phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and and got some some decent results doing that . so that that 's another another way . but yeah , there 's there 's phd f: yeah . mmm . professor a: right . there 's all these cues . we 've actually back when chuck was here we did some voiced - unvoiced uh classification using a bunch of these , phd f: but professor a: and and uh works ok . obviously it 's not perfect but um phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: but the thing is that you ca n't given the constraints of this task , we ca n't , in a very nice way , feed forward to the recognizer the information the probabilistic information that you might get about whether it 's voiced or unvoiced , where w we ca n't you know affect the the uh distributions or anything . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: but we what we uh i guess we could yeah . phd b: did n't the head dude send around that message ? yeah , i think you sent us all a copy of the message , where he was saying that i i 'm not sure , exactly , what the gist of what he was saying , but something having to do with the voice activity detector and that it will that people should n't put their own in or something . it was gon na be a professor a: that but ok . so that 's voice activity detector as opposed to voicing detector . phd f: they did n't . professor a: so we 're talking about something a little different . phd f: mmm . phd b: oh , i 'm sorry . professor a: right ? phd b: i i missed that . phd f: mmm . professor a: i guess what you could do , maybe this would be w useful , if if you have if you view the second stream , yeah , before you before you do klt 's and so forth , if you do view it as probabilities , and if it 's an independent so , if it 's if it 's uh not so much envelope - based by fine - structure - based , uh looking at harmonicity or something like that , um if you get a probability from that information and then multiply it by you know , multiply by all the voiced outputs and all the unvoiced outputs , you know , then use that as the phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: uh take the log of that or uh pre pre uh pre - nonlinearity , phd f: yeah . i if professor a: uh and do the klt on the on on that , phd f: yeah . professor a: then that would that would i guess be uh a reasonable use of independent information . so maybe that 's what you meant . and then that would be phd f: yeah , well , i was not thinking this yeah , this could be an yeah so you mean have some kind of probability for the v the voicing professor a: r right . so you have a second neural net . phd f: and then use a tandem system professor a: it could be pretty small . yeah . if you have a tandem system and then you have some kind of it can be pretty small net phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: we used we d did some of this stuff . uh i i did , some years ago , phd f: yeah . professor a: and the and and you use the thing is to use information primarily that 's different as you say , it 's more fine - structure - based than than envelope - based phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: uh so then it you you you can pretty much guarantee it 's stuff that you 're not looking at very well with the other one , and uh then you only use for this one distinction . phd f: alright . professor a: and and so now you 've got a probability of the cases , and you 've got uh the probability of the finer uh categories on the other side . you multiply them where appropriate and uh um phd f: i see , yeah . mm - hmm . professor a: if they really are from independent information sources then they should have different kinds of errors phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and roughly independent errors , and it 's a good choice for phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . yeah . professor a: uh . yeah , that 's a good idea . phd f: yeah . because , yeah , well , spectral subtraction is good and we could u we could use the fine structure to to have a better estimate of the noise but still there is this issue with spectral subtraction that it seems to increase the variance of of of professor a: yeah . phd f: um well it 's this musical noise which is annoying if you d you do some kind of on - line normalization after . professor a: right . phd f: so . um . yeah . well . spectral subtraction and on - line normalization do n't seem to to go together very well . i professor a: or if you do a spectral subtraction do some spectral subtraction first and then do some on - line normalization then do some more spectral subtraction i mean , maybe maybe you can do it layers or something so it does n't does n't hurt too much or something . phd f: ah , yeah . professor a: but it but uh , anyway i think i was sort of arguing against myself there by giving that example phd f: yeah . professor a: uh i mean cuz i was already sort of suggesting that we should be careful about not spending too much time on exactly what they 're doing in fact if you get if you go into uh a uh harmonics - related thing it 's definitely going to be different than what they 're doing and uh uh phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: should have some interesting properties in noise . um . i know that when have people have done um sort of the obvious thing of taking uh your feature vector and adding in some variables which are pitch related or uh that it has n't my impression it has n't particularly helped . uh . has not . phd f: it it i has not , professor a: yeah . phd f: yeah . professor a: but i think uh that 's that 's a question for this uh you know extending the feature vector versus having different streams . phd f: oh . was it nois noisy condition ? the example that you you just professor a: and and it may not have been noisy conditions . phd f: yeah . professor a: yeah . i i do n't remember the example but it was it was on some darpa data and some years ago and so it probably was n't , actually phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . yeah . but we were thinking , we discussed with barry about this , and perhaps thinking we were thinking about some kind of sheet cheating experiment where we would use timit professor a: uh - huh . phd f: and see if giving the d uh , this voicing bit would help in in terms of uh frame classification . professor a: why do n't you why do n't you just do it with aurora ? phd f: mmm . professor a: just any i in in each in each frame phd f: yeah , but but b but we can not do the cheating , this cheating thing . grad e: we 're professor a: uh grad e: we need labels . professor a: why not ? phd f: well . cuz we do n't have well , for italian perhaps we have , but we do n't have this labeling for aurora . we just have a labeling with word models professor a: i see . phd f: but not for phonemes . phd d: not for foreigners . grad e: we do n't have frame frame level transcriptions . professor a: um . phd d: right . phd f: um . yeah . professor a: but you could i mean you can you can align so that it 's not perfect , but if you if you know what was said and phd b: but the problem is that their models are all word level models . so there 's no phone models that you get alignments for . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: oh . phd b: you so you could find out where the word boundaries are but that 's about it . professor a: yeah . i see . grad e: s but we could use uh the the noisy version that timit , which you know , is similar to the the noises found in the ti - digits um portion of aurora . phd f: yeah . noise , yeah . yeah , that 's right , yep . mmm . professor a: yeah . phd f: well , i guess i guess we can we can say that it will help , but i do n't know . if this voicing bit does n't help , uh , i think we do n't have to to work more about this because professor a: uh . phd f: uh . it 's just to know if it how much i it will help professor a: yeah . phd f: and to have an idea of how much we can gain . professor a: right . i mean in experiments that we did a long time ago phd f: mmm . professor a: and different ta it was probably resource management or something , um , i think you were getting something like still eight or nine percent error on the voicing , as i recall . and um , so um grad e: another person 's voice . professor a: what that said is that , sort of , left to its own devices , like without the a strong language model and so forth , that you would you would make significant number of errors just with your uh probabilistic machinery in deciding phd b: it also professor a: one oh phd b: yeah , the though i think uh there was one problem with that in that , you know , we used canonical mapping so our truth may not have really been true to the acoustics . professor a: uh - huh . grad e: hmm . phd b: so . phd f: mmm . professor a: yeah . well back twenty years ago when i did this voiced - unvoiced stuff , we were getting more like ninety - seven or ninety - eight percent correct in voicing . but that was speaker - dependent actually . we were doing training on a particular announcer phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and and getting a very good handle on the features . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and we did this complex feature selection thing where we looked at all the different possible features one could have for voicing and and and uh and exhaustively searched all size subsets and and uh for for that particular speaker and you 'd find you know the five or six features which really did well on them . phd b: wow ! phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and then doing doing all of that we could get down to two or three percent error . but that , again , was speaker - dependent with lots of feature selection phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and a very complex sort of thing . phd f: mmm . professor a: so i would i would believe that uh it was quite likely that um looking at envelope only , that we 'd be significantly worse than that . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: uh . phd f: and the all the the speechcorders ? what 's the idea behind ? cuz they they have to oh , they do n't even have to detect voiced spe speech ? professor a: the modern ones do n't do a a simple switch . phd f: they just work on the code book professor a: they work on the code book excitation . phd f: and find out the best excitation . professor a: yeah they do analysis - by - synthesis . they try they they try every every possible excitation they have in their code book and find the one that matches best . phd f: yeah . mmm . alright . yeah . so it would not help . professor a: yeah . grad e: hmm . professor a: uh . o k . phd b: can i just mention one other interesting thing ? professor a: yeah . phd b: um . one of the ideas that we had come up with last week for things to try to improve the system um . actually i i s we did n't i guess i wrote this in after the meeting b but the thought i had was um looking at the language model that 's used in the htk recognizer , which is basically just a big loop , grad e: mm - hmm . phd b: right ? so you it goes `` digit `` phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: and then that can be either go to silence or go to another digit , which that model would allow for the production of infinitely long sequences of digits , right ? professor a: right . phd b: so . i thought `` well i 'm gon na just look at the what actual digit strings do occur in the training data . `` professor a: right . phd b: and the interesting thing was it turns out that there are no sequences of two - long or three - long digit strings in any of the aurora training data . so it 's either one , four , five , six , uh up to eleven , and then it skips and then there 's some at sixteen . professor a: but what about the testing data ? phd b: um . i do n't know . i did n't look at the test data yet . professor a: yeah . i mean if there 's some testing data that has has has two or three phd b: so . yeah . but i just thought that was a little odd , that there were no two or three long sorry . so i i just for the heck of it , i made a little grammar which um , you know , had it 's separate path for each length digit string you could get . so there was a one - long path and there was a four - long and a five - long professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: and i tried that and it got way worse . there were lots of deletions . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: so it was you know , i i did n't have any weights of these paths or i did n't have anything like that . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: and i played with tweaking the word transition penalties a bunch , but i could n't go anywhere . professor a: hmm . phd b: but um . i thought `` well if i only allow `` yeah , i guess i should have looked at to see how often there was a mistake where a two - long or a three - long path was actually put out as a hypothesis . um . but . professor a: hmm . phd b: so to do that right you 'd probably want to have allow for them all but then have weightings and things . so . i just thought that was a interesting thing about the data . professor a: ok . so we 're gon na read some more digit strings i guess ? phd b: yeah . you want to go ahead , morgan ? professor a: sure .

the meeting began with the professor discussing the technical features of their recordings . the interaction between the hardware and the model had to be mediated through different techniques . some members on the team were working on low-pass down-sampling as a replacement for lda filters . low-pass seemed to perform better , but the team was uncertain about its robustness . the professor thought that the team should submit something to eurospeech and that they should further study reverberation . the professor thought that studying spectrograms would be a good place to start . the team then discussed vad and line mean normalization as techniques for getting rid of noise . the meeting ended with a brief discussion on feature detection .

summarize the discussion on patterns of noise in the recordings </s> phd b: ok . we 're on . grad e: hello ? professor a: ok , so uh had some interesting mail from uh dan ellis . actually , i think he he redirected it to everybody also so uh the pda mikes uh have a big bunch of energy at at uh five hertz uh where this came up was that uh i was showing off these wave forms that we have on the web and and uh i just sort of had n't noticed this , but that the major , major component in the wave in the second wave form in that pair of wave forms is actually the air conditioner . grad c: huh . professor a: so . so . i i have to be more careful about using that as a as a as a good illustration , uh , in fact it 's not , of uh of the effects of room reverberation . it is is n't a bad illustration of the effects of uh room noise . on on uh some mikes uh but so . and then we had this other discussion about um whether this affects the dynamic range , cuz i know , although we start off with thirty two bits , you end up with uh sixteen bits and you know , are we getting hurt there ? but uh dan is pretty confident that we 're not , that that quantization error is not is still not a significant factor there . so . so there was a question of whether we should change things here , whether we should change a capacitor on the input box for that or whether we should phd b: yeah , he suggested a smaller capacitor , right ? professor a: right . but then i had some other uh thing discussions with him phd b: for the p d professor a: and the feeling was once we start monk monkeying with that , uh , many other problems could ha happen . and additionally we we already have a lot of data that 's been collected with that , so . phd b: yeah . professor a: a simple thing to do is he he he has a i forget if it this was in that mail or in the following mail , but he has a a simple filter , a digital filter that he suggested . we just run over the data before we deal with it . phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: um the other thing that i do n't know the answer to , but when people are using feacalc here , uh whether they 're using it with the high - pass filter option or not . and i do n't know if anybody knows . grad e: um . i could go check . professor a: but . yeah . so when we 're doing all these things using our software there is um if it 's if it 's based on the rasta - plp program , which does both plp and rasta - plp um then uh there is an option there which then comes up through to feacalc which um allows you to do high - pass filtering and in general we like to do that , because of things like this and it 's it 's pretty it 's not a very severe filter . does n't affect speech frequencies , even pretty low speech frequencies , at all , but it 's phd b: what 's the cut - off frequency it used ? professor a: oh . i do n't know i wrote this a while ago phd b: is it like twenty ? professor a: something like that . phd b: yeah . professor a: yeah . i mean i think there 's some effect above twenty but it 's it 's it 's it 's mild . so , i mean it probably there 's probably some effect up to a hundred hertz or something but it 's it 's pretty mild . i do n't know in the in the strut implementation of the stuff is there a high - pass filter or a pre pre - emphasis or something in the phd f: uh . i think we use a pre - emphasis . yeah . yeah . professor a: so . we we we want to go and check that in i for anything that we 're going to use the p d a mike for . uh he says that there 's a pretty good roll off in the pzm mikes so we do n't need need to worry about them one way or the other but if we do make use of the cheap mikes , uh we want to be sure to do that that filtering before we process it . and then again if it 's uh depending on the option that the our our software is being run with , it 's it 's quite possible that 's already being taken care of . uh but i also have to pick a different picture to show the effects of reverberation . uh phd b: did somebody notice it during your talk ? professor a: uh no . phd b: huh . professor a: well . uh well . if they made output they were they were , you know they were nice . phd b: did n't say anything ? professor a: but . i mean the thing is it was since i was talking about reverberation and showing this thing that was noise , it was n't a good match , but it certainly was still uh an indication of the fact that you get noise with distant mikes . uh it 's just not a great example because not only is n't it reverberation but it 's a noise that we definitely know what to do . phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: so , i mean , it does n't take deep a new bold new methods to get rid of uh five hertz noise , so . phd b: yeah . professor a: um uh but . so it was it was a bad example in that way , but it 's it still is it 's the real thing that we did get out of the microphone at distance , so it was n't it w it w was n't wrong it was inappropriate . so . so uh , but uh , yeah , someone noticed it later pointed it out to me , and i went `` oh , man . why did n't i notice that ? `` phd b: hmm . professor a: um . so . um so i think we 'll change our our picture on the web , when we 're @ @ . one of the things i was i mean , i was trying to think about what what 's the best way to show the difference an and i had a couple of thoughts one was , that spectrogram that we show is o k , but the thing is the eyes uh and the the brain behind them are so good at picking out patterns from from noise that in first glance you look at them it does n't seem like it 's that bad uh because there 's many features that are still preserved . so one thing to do might be to just take a piece of the spec uh of the spectrogram where you can see that something looks different , an and blow it up , and have that be the part that 's just to show as well . you know . phd b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor a: i i some things are going to be hurt . um another , i was thinking of was um taking some spectral slices , like uh like we look at with the recognizer , and look at the spectrum or cepstrum that you get out of there , and the the uh , um , the reverberation uh does make it does change that . and so maybe maybe that would be more obvious . phd b: hmm . grad c: spectral slices ? professor a: yeah . grad c: w w what d what do you mean ? professor a: well , i mean um all the recognizers look at frames . so they they look at phd b: so like one instant in time . professor a: yeah , look at a grad c: ok . professor a: so it 's , yeah , at one point in time or uh twenty over twenty milliseconds or something , you have a spectrum or a cepstrum . grad c: ok . professor a: that 's what i meant by a slice . grad c: i see . professor a: yeah . and if you look at phd b: you could just you could just throw up , you know , uh the uh some mfcc feature vectors . you know , one from one , one from the other , and then , you know , you can look and see how different the numbers are . professor a: right . well , that 's why i saying either well , either spectrum or cepstrum phd b: i 'm just kidding . professor a: but but i think the thing is you wan na phd b: i do n't mean a graph . i mean the actual numbers . professor a: oh . i see . oh . that would be lovely , yeah . phd b: yeah . `` see how different these sequences of numbers are ? `` professor a: yeah . or i could just add them up and get a different total . phd b: yeah . it 's not the square . professor a: ok . uh . what else wh what 's what else is going on ? phd f: uh , yeah . yeah , at first i had a remark why i am wondering why the pda is always so far . i mean we are always meeting at the beginning of the table and the pda 's there . professor a: uh . i guess cuz we have n't wanted to move it . we we could we could move us , phd f: yeah ? professor a: and . phd f: ok . grad e: that 's right . phd f: well , anyway . um . yeah , so . uh . since the last meeting we 've we 've tried to put together um the clean low - pass um downsampling , upsampling , i mean , uh the new filter that 's replacing the lda filters , and also the um delay issue so that we considered th the the delay issue on the for the on - line normalization . mmm . so we 've put together all this and then we have results that are not um very impressive . well , there is no real improvement . professor a: but it 's not wer worse and it 's better better latency , phd f: it 's not professor a: right ? phd f: yeah . yeah . well . actually it 's better . it seems better when we look at the mismatched case but i think we are like like cheated here by the th this problem that uh in some cases when you modify slight slightly modify the initial condition you end up completely somewhere air somewhere else in the in the space , the parameters . professor a: yeah . phd f: so . well . the other system are for instance . for italian is at seventy - eight percent recognition rate on the mismatch , and this new system has eighty - nine . but i do n't think it indicates something , really . i do n't i do n't think it means that the new system is more robust professor a: uh - huh . phd f: or it 's simply the fact that well . professor a: well , the test would be if you then tried it on one of the other test sets , if if it was phd f: y professor a: right . so this was italian , right ? phd f: yeah . yeah . professor a: so then if you take your changes phd f: it 's similar for other test sets professor a: and then phd f: but i mean from this se seventy - eight um percent recognition rate system , i could change the transition probabilities for the the first hmm and it will end up to eighty - nine also . professor a: uh - huh . phd f: by using point five instead of point six , point four as in the the htk script . professor a: uh - huh . yeah . phd f: so . well . that 's phd b: yeah . yeah i looked at um looked at the results when stephane did that phd f: well . eh uh phd b: and it 's it 's really wo really happens . phd f: this really happens . phd b: i mean th the only difference is you change the self - loop transition probability by a tenth of a percent phd f: yeah . professor a: yeah . phd b: and it causes ten percent difference in the word error rate . professor a: a tenth of a per cent . phd b: yeah . from point phd f: even tenth of a percent ? phd b: i i 'm sorry phd f: well , we tried we tried point one , phd b: f for point from you change at point one phd f: yeah . professor a: oh ! phd b: and n not tenth of a percent , one tenth , phd f: hmm . professor a: yeah . phd b: alright ? um so from point five so from point six to point five and you get ten percent better . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: and it 's i think it 's what you basically hypothesized in the last meeting about uh it just being very phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: and i think you mentioned this in your email too it 's just very um phd f: mmm , yeah . phd b: you know get stuck in some local minimum and this thing throws you out of it i guess . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: well , what 's what are according to the rules what what are we supposed to do about the transition probabilities ? are they supposed to be point five or point six ? phd b: i think you 're not allowed to yeah . that 's supposed to be point six , for the self - loop . phd f: yeah . professor a: point it 's supposed to be point six . phd b: yeah . but changing it to point five i think is which gives you much better results , but that 's not allowed . professor a: but not allowed ? yeah . ok . phd b: yeah . phd f: yeah , but even if you use point five , i 'm not sure it will always give you the better results phd b: yeah . phd f: on other test set or it phd b: right . we only tested it on the the medium mismatch , phd f: on the other training set , i mean . phd b: right ? you said on the other cases you did n't notice phd f: yeah . but . i think , yeah . i think the reason is , yeah , i not i it was in my mail i think also , is the fact that the mismatch is trained only on the far microphone . well , in for the mismatched case everything is um using the far microphone training and testing , whereas for the highly mismatched , training is done on the close microphone so it 's it 's clean speech basically so you do n't have this problem of local minima probably and for the well - match , it 's a mix of close microphone and distant microphone and well . phd b: i did notice uh something phd f: so th i think the mismatch is the more difficult for the training part . phd b: somebody , i think it was morgan , suggested at the last meeting that i actually count to see how many parameters and how many frames . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: and there are uh almost one point eight million frames of training data and less than forty thousand parameters in the baseline system . professor a: hmm . phd f: yeah . phd b: so it 's very , very few parameters compared to how much training data . professor a: well . yes . phd d: mm - hmm . professor a: so . and that that says that we could have lots more parameters actually . phd b: yeah . yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: i did one quick experiment just to make sure i had everything worked out and i just uh f for most of the um for for all of the digit models , they end up at three mixtures per state . and so i just did a quick experiment , where i changed it so it went to four and um it it it did n't have a r any significant effect at the uh medium mismatch and high mismatch cases and it had it was just barely significant for the well - matched better . uh so i 'm r gon na run that again but um with many more uh mixtures per state . professor a: yeah . cuz at forty thou i mean you could you could have uh yeah , easily four times as many parameters . phd b: mm - hmm . and i think also just seeing what we saw uh in terms of the expected duration of the silence model ? when we did this tweaking of the self - loop ? the silence model expected duration was really different . phd f: yeah . phd b: and so in the case where um it had a better score , the silence model expected duration was much longer . phd f: yeah . phd b: so it was like it was a better match . i think you know if we make a better silence model i think that will help a lot too um for a lot of these cases so but one one thing i i wanted to check out before i increased the um number of mixtures per state was uh in their default training script they do an initial set of three re - estimations and then they built the silence model and then they do seven iterations then the add mixtures and they do another seven then they add mixtures then they do a final set of seven and they quit . seven seems like a lot to me and it also makes the experiments go take a really long time i mean to do one turn - around of the well matched case takes like a day . professor a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd b: and so you know in trying to run these experiments i notice , you know , it 's difficult to find machines , you know , compute the run on . and so one of the things i did was i compiled htk for the linux machines professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: cuz we have this one from ibm that 's got like five processors in it ? professor a: right . phd b: and so now i 'm you can run stuff on that and that really helps a lot because now we 've got you know , extra machines that we can use for compute . and if i 'm do running an experiment right now where i 'm changing the number of iterations ? from seven to three ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor a: yeah . phd b: just to see how it affects the baseline system . and so if we can get away with just doing three , we can do many more experiments more quickly . and if it 's not a a huge difference from running with seven iterations , um , you know , we should be able to get a lot more experiments done . phd f: hmm . phd b: and so . i 'll let you know what what happens with that . but if we can you know , run all of these back - ends f with many fewer iterations and on linux boxes we should be able to get a lot more experimenting done . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: so . so i wanted to experiment with cutting down the number of iterations before i increased the number of gaussians . professor a: right . sorry . so um , how 's it going on the phd f: um . professor a: so . you you did some things . they did n't improve things in a way that convinced you you 'd substantially improved anything . phd f: yeah . professor a: but they 're not making things worse and we have reduced latency , right ? phd f: yeah . but actually um actually it seems to do a little bit worse for the well - matched case and we just noticed that yeah , actually the way the final score is computed is quite funny . it 's not a mean of word error rate . it 's not a weighted mean of word error rate , it 's a weighted mean of improvements . professor a: uh - huh . phd f: so . which means that actually the weight on the well - matched is well i well what what what happened is that if you have a small improvement or a small if on the well - matched case it will have uh huge influence on the improvement compared to the reference because the reference system is is is quite good for for the well - ma well - matched case also . phd b: so it it weights the improvement on the well - matched case really heavily compared to the improvement on the other cases ? phd f: no , but it 's the weighting of the of the improvement not of the error rate . phd b: yeah . yeah , and it 's hard to improve on the on the best case , cuz it 's already so good , right ? phd f: yeah but what i mean is that you can have a huge improvement on the h hmk 's , uh like five percent uh absolute , and this will not affect the final score almost uh this will almost not affect the final score because this improvement because the improvement uh relative to the the baseline is small professor a: so they do improvement in terms of uh accuracy ? rather than word error rate ? phd f: uh . uh improvement ? professor a: so phd f: no , it 's compared to the word er it 's improvement on the word error rate , professor a: ok . phd f: yeah . sorry . professor a: so if you have uh ten percent error and you get five percent absolute uh improvement then that 's fifty percent . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: ok . so what you 're saying then is that if it 's something that has a small word error rate , then uh a even a relatively small improvement on it , in absolute terms , will show up as quite quite large in this . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: is that what you 're saying ? phd f: yeah . professor a: yes . phd f: yeah . professor a: ok . but yeah that 's that 's it 's the notion of relative improvement . word error rate . phd f: yeah . sure , but when we think about the weighting , which is point five , point three , point two , it 's on absolute on on relative figures , professor a: yeah . phd f: not professor a: yeah . phd f: so when we look at this error rate professor a: no . that 's why i 've been saying we should be looking at word error rate uh and and not not at at accuracies . phd f: uh mmm , yeah . mmm , yeah . professor a: it 's phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: i mean uh we probably should have standardized on that all the way through . it 's just phd b: well . phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean , it 's not it 's not that different , right ? i mean , just subtract the accuracy . professor a: yeah but you 're but when you look at the numbers , your sense of the relative size of things is quite different . phd b: i mean oh . oh , i see . yeah . professor a: if you had ninety percent uh correct and five percent , five over ninety does n't look like it 's a big difference , but five over ten is is big . phd b: mm - hmm . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: so just when we were looking at a lot of numbers and getting sense of what was important . phd b: i see . i see . yeah . that makes sense . professor a: um . phd f: mmm . professor a: um . phd f: well anyway uh . so . yeah . so it hurts a little bit on the well - match and yeah . professor a: what 's a little bit ? like phd f: like , it 's difficult to say because again um i 'm not sure i have the um phd b: hey morgan ? do you remember that signif program that we used to use for testing signi ? is that still valid ? i i 've been using that . professor a: yeah . yeah , it was actually updated . phd b: ok . professor a: uh . jeff updated it some years ago phd b: oh , it was . oh , i shoul professor a: and and uh cleaned it up made some things better in it . so . phd b: ok . i should find that new one . i just use my old one from ninety - two or whatever professor a: yeah , i 'm sure it 's not that different but but he he uh he was a little more rigorous , as i recall . phd b: ok . phd f: right . so it 's around , like , point five . no , point six { comment } uh percent absolute on italian professor a: worse . phd f: worse , yep . professor a: out of what ? i mean . s phd f: uh well we start from ninety - four point sixty - four , and we go to ninety - four point o four . professor a: uh - huh . so that 's six six point th phd f: uh . phd b: ninety - three point six four , right ? is the baseline . phd f: oh , no , i 've ninety - four . oh , the baseline , you mean . phd b: yeah . phd f: well i do n't i 'm not talking about the baseline here . phd b: oh . oh . i 'm sorry . phd f: i uh my baseline is the submitted system . phd b: ah ! ok . ah , ah . phd f: hmm . professor a: yeah . phd b: sorry . phd f: oh yeah . for finnish , we start to ninety - three point eight - four and we go to ninety - three point seventy - four . and for spanish we are we were at ninety - five point o five and we go to ninety - three - s point sixty one . professor a: ok , so we are getting hurt somewhat . phd f: so . professor a: and is that wh what do you know what piece you 've done several changes here . uh , do you know what pie phd f: yeah . i guess i guess it 's it 's the filter . because nnn , well uh we do n't have complete result , but the filter so the filter with the shorter delay hurts on italian well - matched , which and , yeah . and the other things , like um downsampling , upsampling , do n't seem to hurt and the new on - line normalization , neither . phd b: i 'm phd f: so . phd b: i 'm really confused about something . if we saw that making a small change like , you know , a tenth , to the self - loop had a huge effect , can we really make any conclusions about differences in this stuff ? phd f: mm - hmm . yeah that 's th yeah . phd b: i mean , especially when they 're this small . i mean . phd f: i think we can be completely fooled by this thing , but i do n't know . professor a: well , yeah . phd f: so . there is first this thing , and then the yeah , i computed the um like , the confidence level on the different test sets . and for the well - matched they are around um point six uh percent . for the mismatched they are around like let 's say one point five percent . and for the well - m uh hm they are also around one point five . professor a: but ok , so you these these degradations you were talking about were on the well - matched case phd f: so . professor a: uh . do the does the new filter make things uh better or worse for the other cases ? phd f: yeah . but . uh . about the same . it does n't hurt . yeah . professor a: does n't hurt , but does n't get a little better , or something . phd f: no . professor a: no . ok , so um i guess the argument one might make is that , `` yeah , if you looked at one of these cases and you jiggle something and it changes then uh you 're not quite sure what to make of it . but when you look across a bunch of these and there 's some some pattern , um i mean , so eh h here 's all the if if in all these different cases it never gets better , and there 's significant number of cases where it gets worse , then you 're probably hurting things , i would say . so um i mean at the very least that would be a reasonably prediction of what would happen with with a different test set , that you 're not jiggling things with . so i guess the question is if you can do better than this . if you can if we can approximate the old numbers while still keeping the latency down . phd f: mmm . yeah . professor a: uh , so . um . what i was asking , though , is uh are what 's what 's the level of communication with uh the o g i gang now , about this and phd f: well , we are exchanging mail as soon as we we have significant results . professor a: yeah . phd f: um . yeah . for the moment , they are working on integrating the um spectral subtraction apparently from ericsson . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: um . yeah . and so . yeah . we are working on our side on other things like uh also trying a sup spectral subtraction but of of our own , i mean , another spectral substraction . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: um . yeah . so i think it 's it 's ok . it 's going professor a: is there any further discussion about this this idea of of having some sort of source code control ? phd f: yeah . well . for the moment they 're uh everybody 's quite um there is this eurospeech deadline , so . professor a: i see . phd f: um . and . yeah . but yeah . as soon as we have something that 's significant and that 's better than than what was submitted , we will fix fix the system and but we 've not discussed it it it this yet , yeah . professor a: yeah . sounds like a great idea but but i think that that um he 's saying people are sort of scrambling for a eurospeech deadline . phd f: mmm . professor a: but that 'll be uh , uh done in a week . so , maybe after this next one . phd f: yeah . phd b: wow ! already a week ! man ! professor a: yeah . phd b: you 're right . that 's amazing . professor a: yeah . anybo - anybody in the in this group do doing anything for eurospeech ? phd f: s professor a: or , is that what is that phd f: yeah we are we are trying to to do something with the meeting recorder digits , professor a: right . phd f: and but yeah . yeah . and the good thing is that there is this first deadline , professor a: yeah . phd f: and , well , some people from ogi are working on a paper for this , but there is also the um special session about th aurora which is uh which has an extended deadline . so . the deadline is in may . professor a: for uh oh , for eurospeech ? phd f: for th yeah . professor a: oh ! phd f: so f only for the experiments on aurora . so it it 's good , professor a: oh , a special dispensation . phd f: yeah . professor a: that 's great . phd b: mm - hmm . where is eurospeech this year ? phd f: it 's in denmark . professor a: aalborg aalborg uh phd b: oh . professor a: so the deadline when 's the deadline ? when 's the deadline ? phd f: hmm ? i think it 's the thirteenth of may . professor a: that 's great ! it 's great . so we should definitely get something in for that . phd f: yeah . professor a: but on meeting digits , maybe there 's maybe . phd f: yeah . professor a: maybe . phd f: so it would be for the first deadline . professor a: yeah . phd f: nnn . professor a: yeah . so , i mean , i i think that you could certainly start looking at at the issue uh but but uh i think it 's probably , on s from what stephane is saying , it 's it 's unlikely to get sort of active participation from the two sides until after they 've phd b: well i could at least well , i 'm going to be out next week but i could try to look into like this uh cvs over the web . that seems to be a very popular way of people distributing changes and over , you know , multiple sites and things professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: so maybe if i can figure out how do that easily and then pass the information on to everybody so that it 's you know , as easy to do as possible and and people do n't it wo n't interfere with { comment } their regular work , then maybe that would be good . and i think we could use it for other things around here too . so . professor a: good . grad c: that 's cool . and if you 're interested in using cvs , i 've set it up here , phd b: oh great . grad c: so . phd b: ok . grad c: um j phd b: i used it a long time ago but it 's been a while so maybe i can ask you some questions . grad c: oh . so . i 'll be away tomorrow and monday but i 'll be back on tuesday or wednesday . phd b: ok . professor a: yeah . dave , the other thing , actually , is is this business about this wave form . maybe you and i can talk a little bit at some point about coming up with a better uh demonstration of the effects of reverberation for our web page , cuz uh the uh um i mean , actually the the uh it made a good good audio demonstration because when we could play that clip the the the really obvious difference is that you can hear two voices and in the second one and only hear phd b: maybe we could just like , talk into a cup . professor a: yeah . phd b: some good reverb . professor a: no , i mean , it sound it sounds pretty reverberant , but i mean you ca n't when you play it back in a room with a you know a big room , nobody can hear that difference really . grad c: yeah . professor a: they hear that it 's lower amplitude and they hear there 's a second voice , grad c: uh - huh . professor a: um but uh that actually that makes for a perfectly good demo because that 's a real obvious thing , that you hear two voices . phd b: but not of reverberation . professor a: yeah . grad c: a boom . professor a: well that that that 's ok . but for the the visual , just , you know , i 'd like to have uh uh , you know , the spectrogram again , grad c: yeah . professor a: because you 're you 're you 're visual uh abilities as a human being are so good you can pick out you know , you you look at the good one , you look at the cru the screwed up one , and and you can see the features in it without trying to @ @ phd b: i noticed that in the pictures . professor a: yeah . phd b: i thought `` hey , you know th `` i my initial thought was `` this is not too bad ! `` professor a: right . but you have to you know , if you look at it closely , you see `` well , here 's a place where this one has a big formant uh uh formant maj major formants here are are moving quite a bit . `` and then you look in the other one and they look practically flat . phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: so i mean you could that 's why i was thinking , in a section like that , you could take a look look at just that part of the spectrogram and you could say `` oh yeah . this this really distorted it quite a bit . `` phd b: yeah . the main thing that struck me in looking at those two spectrograms was the difference in the high frequencies . it looked like for the one that was farther away , you know , it really everything was attenuated professor a: right . phd b: and i mean that was the main visual thing that i noticed . professor a: right . but it 's it 's uh so . yeah . so there are clearly are spectral effects . since you 're getting all this indirect energy , then a lot of it does have have uh reduced high frequencies . but um the other thing is the temporal courses of things really are changed , and and uh we want to show that , in some obvious way . the reason i put the wave forms in there was because uh they they do look quite different . uh . and so i thought `` oh , this is good . `` but i i just uh after after uh they were put in there i did n't really look at them anymore , cuz i just they were different . so i want something that has a is a more interesting explanation for why they 're different . um . grad c: oh . so maybe we can just substitute one of these wave forms and um then do some kind of zoom in on the spectrogram on an interesting area . professor a: something like that . yeah . grad c: uh - huh . professor a: the other thing that we had in there that i did n't like was that um the most obvious characteristic of the difference uh when you listen to it is that there 's a second voice , and the the the the the uh cuts that we have there actually do n't correspond to the full wave form . it 's just the first i think there was something where he was having some trouble getting so much in , or . i i forget the reason behind it . but it it 's um it 's the first six seconds or something of it and it 's in the seventh or eighth second or something where @ @ the second voice comes in . so we we would like to actually see the voice coming in , too , i think , since that 's the most obvious thing when you listen to it . grad c: mm - hmm . professor a: so . um . phd f: uh , yeah . yeah . i brought some i do n't know if some figures here . well . i start we started to work on spectral subtraction . and um the preliminary results were very bad . professor a: uh - huh . phd f: so the thing that we did is just to add spectral subtraction before this , the wall uh process , which contains lda on - line normalization . and it hurts uh a lot . professor a: uh - huh . phd f: and so we started to look at at um things like this , which is , well , it 's yeah . so you have the c - zero parameters for one uh italian utterance . phd d: you can @ @ . phd f: and i plotted this for two channels . channel zero is the close mic microphone , and channel one is the distant microphone . and it 's perfectly synchronized , so . and the sentence contain only one word , which is `` due `` and it ca n't clearly be seen . where where is it ? professor a: uh - huh . phd f: where is the word ? phd b: this is this is , grad e: hmm . phd b: oh , a plot of c - zero , phd f: so . phd b: the energy . phd f: this is a plot of c - zero , uh when we do n't use spectral substraction , and when there is no on - line normalization . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: so . there is just some filtering with the lda and and some downsampling , upsampling . phd b: c - zero is the close talking ? phd f: so . phd b: uh the close channel ? phd f: yeah . yeah . phd b: and s channel one is the phd f: yeah . so c - zero is very clean , actually . phd b: yeah . phd f: uh then when we apply mean normalization it looks like the second figure , though it is not . which is good . well , the noise part is around zero professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: and and then the third figure is what happens when we apply mean normalization and variance normalization . so . what we can clearly see is that on the speech portion the two channel come becomes very close , but also what happens on the noisy portion is that the variance of the noise is professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: this is still being a plot of c - zero ? ok . phd f: yeah . this is still c - zero . phd b: can i ask um what does variance normalization do ? w what is the effect of that ? professor a: normalizes the variance . phd f: so it it yeah . phd b: i mean phd f: it normalized th the standard deviation . phd b: y yeah . phd f: so it phd b: no , i understand that , phd f: you you get an estimate of the standard deviation . phd b: but i mean phd f: that 's phd b: no . phd f: um phd b: no , i understand what it is , but i mean , what does it what 's what is phd f: yeah but . phd b: uh professor a: what 's the rationale ? phd b: we yeah . yeah . why why do it ? phd f: uh . professor a: well , i mean , because everything uh if you have a system based on gaussians , everything is based on means and variances . phd b: yeah . professor a: so if there 's an overall reason you know , it 's like uh if you were doing uh image processing and in some of the pictures you were looking at , uh there was a lot of light uh and and in some , there was low light , phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: you know , you would want to adjust for that in order to compare things . phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: and the variance is just sort of like the next moment , you know ? so uh what if um one set of pictures was taken uh so that throughout the course it was went through daylight and night uh um um ten times , another time it went thr i mean i is , you know , how how much how much vari phd b: oh , ok . professor a: or no . i guess a better example would be how much of the light was coming in from outside rather than artificial light . so if it was a lot if more was coming from outside , then there 'd be the bigger effect of the of the of the change in the so every mean every all all of the the parameters that you have , especially the variances , are going to be affected by the overall variance . phd b: oh , ok . uh - huh . professor a: and so , in principle , you if you remove that source , then , you know , you can phd b: i see . ok . so would the major effect is that you 're gon na get is by normalizing the means , professor a: that 's the first order but thing , phd b: but it may help first - order effects . professor a: but then the second order is is the variances phd b: and it may help to do the variance . ok . professor a: because , again , if you if you 're trying to distinguish between e and b phd b: ok . professor a: if it just so happens that the e 's were a more you know , were recorded when when the energy was was was larger or something , phd b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor a: or the variation in it was larger , uh than with the b 's , then this will be give you some some bias . phd b: professor a: so the it 's removing these sources of variability in the data that have nothing to do with the linguistic component . phd b: ok . phd f: mmm . phd b: gotcha . ok . sorry to interrupt . professor a: but the the uh but let me as ask ask you something . phd f: yep . and it and this professor a: i is if if you have a good voice activity detector , is n't is n't it gon na pull that out ? phd f: yeah . sure . if they are good . yeah . well what it it shows is that , yeah , perhaps a good voice activity detector is is good before on - line normalization and that 's what uh we 've already observed . but uh , yeah , voice activity detection is not an easy thing neither . phd b: but after you do this , after you do the variance normalization i mean . phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: i do n't know , it seems like this would be a lot easier than this signal to work with . phd f: yeah . so . what i notice is that , while i prefer to look at the second figure than at the third one , well , because you clearly see where speech is . professor a: yeah . phd b: yeah . phd f: but the problem is that on the speech portion , channel zero and channel one are more different than when you use variance normalization where channel zero and channel one become closer . professor a: right . phd b: but for the purposes of finding the speech phd f: and yeah , but here phd b: you 're more interested in the difference between the speech and the nonspeech , phd f: yeah . phd b: right ? phd f: yeah . so i think , yeah . for i th i think that it perhaps it shows that uh the parameters that the voice activity detector should use uh have to use should be different than the parameter that have to be used for speech recognition . professor a: yeah . so basically you want to reduce this effect . phd f: well , y professor a: so you can do that by doing the voi voice activity detection . you also could do it by spect uh spectral subtraction before the variance normalization , right ? phd f: yeah , but it 's not clear , yeah . professor a: so uh phd f: we so . well . it 's just to professor a: yeah . phd f: the the number that at that are here are recognition experiments on italian hm and mm with these two kinds of parameters . and , well , it 's better with variance normalization . professor a: yeah . yeah . so it does get better even though it looks ugly . phd f: uh professor a: ok . but does this have the voice activity detection in it ? phd f: yeah . professor a: ok . phd f: um . professor a: so . grad e: ok . phd b: where 's th phd f: but the fact is that the voice activity detector does n't work on channel one . so . yeah . professor a: uh - huh . phd b: where at what stage is the voice activity detector applied ? is it applied here or a after the variance normalization ? phd f: hmm ? professor a: spectral subtraction , i guess . phd b: or phd f: it 's applied before variance normalization . so it 's a good thing , phd b: oh . phd f: because i guess voice activity detection on this should could be worse . phd b: yeah . is it applied all the way back here ? phd f: it 's applied the um on , yeah , something like this , phd b: maybe that 's why it does n't work for channel one . phd f: yeah . perhaps , yeah . professor a: can i phd f: so we could perhaps do just mean normalization before vad . phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: mm - hmm . can i ask a , i mean a sort of top - level question , which is um `` if if most of what the ogi folk are working with is trying to integrate this other other uh spectral subtraction , why are we worrying about it ? `` phd f: mm - hmm . about ? spectral subtraction ? professor a: yeah . phd f: it 's just uh well it 's another they are trying to u to use the um the ericsson and we 're trying to use something something else . and . yeah , and also to understand what happens because professor a: ok . phd f: uh fff well . when we do spectral subtraction , actually , i think that this is the the two last figures . professor a: yeah . phd f: um . it seems that after spectral subtraction , speech is more emerging now uh than than before . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: speech is more what ? phd f: well , the difference between the energy of the speech and the energy of the n spectral subtrac subtracted noise portion is is larger . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: well , if you compare the first figure to this one actually the scale is not the same , but if you look at the the numbers um you clearly see that the difference between the c - zero of the speech and c - zero of the noise portion is larger . uh but what happens is that after spectral subtraction , you also increase the variance of this of c - zero . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: and so if you apply variance normalization on this , it completely sc screw everything . well . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: um . uh . yeah . so yeah . and what they did at ogi is just uh they do n't use on - line normalization , for the moment , on spectral subtraction and i think yeah . i think as soon as they will try on - line normalization there will be a problem . so yeah , we 're working on the same thing but i think uh with different different system and professor a: right . i mean , i the intellectually it 's interesting to work on things th uh one way or the other phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: but i 'm i 'm just wondering if um on the list of things that there are to do , if there are things that we wo n't do because we 've got two groups doing the same thing . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: um . that 's phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: um . just just asking . uh . i mean , it 's phd f: yeah , well , phd b: there also could be i mean . i can maybe see a reason f for both working on it too phd f: uh . phd b: if um you know , if if if you work on something else and and you 're waiting for them to give you spectral subtraction i mean it 's hard to know whether the effects that you get from the other experiments you do will carry over once you then bring in their spectral subtraction module . so it 's it 's almost like everything 's held up waiting for this one thing . i do n't know if that 's true or not , but i could see how phd f: mmm . professor a: i do n't know . phd b: maybe that 's what you were thinking . professor a: i do n't know . i mean , we still evidently have a latency reduction plan which which is n't quite what you 'd like it to be . that that seems like one prominent thing . and then uh were n't issues of of having a a second stream or something ? that was was it there was this business that , you know , we we could use up the full forty - eight hundred bits , and phd f: yeah . but i think they ' i think we want to work on this . they also want to work on this , so . uh . yeah . we we will try msg , but um , yeah . and they are t i think they want to work on the second stream also , but more with some kind of multi - band or , well , what they call trap or generalized trap . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: um . so . professor a: ok . do you remember when the next meeting is supposed to be ? the next uh phd f: it 's uh in june . professor a: in june . ok . phd f: yeah . professor a: yeah . um . yeah , the other thing is that you saw that that mail about uh the vad v a ds performing quite differently ? that that uh so um . this there was this experiment of uh `` what if we just take the baseline ? `` phd f: mmm . professor a: set uh of features , just mel cepstra , and you inc incorporate the different v a and it looks like the the french vad is actually uh better significantly better . phd b: improves the baseline ? professor a: yeah . yeah . phd f: yeah but i do n't know which vad they use . uh . if the use the small vad i th i think it 's on i think it 's easy to do better because it does n't work at all . so . i i do n't know which which one . it 's pratibha that that did this experiment . phd d: yeah . phd f: um . we should ask which vad she used . phd d: i do n't @ @ . he actually , i think that he say with the good vad of from ogi and with the alcatel vad . and the experiment was sometime better , sometime worse . phd f: yeah but i it 's uh i think you were talking about the other mail that used vad on the reference features . professor a: yes . phd f: yeah . professor a: and on that one , uh the french one is was better . phd d: i do n't remember . professor a: it was just better . phd d: mm - hmm . professor a: i mean it was enough better that that it would uh account for a fair amount of the difference between our performance , actually . phd f: mm - hmm . phd d: mm - hmm . professor a: so . uh . so if they have a better one , we should use it . i mean . you know ? it 's you ca n't work on everything . phd f: yeah . professor a: uh . uh . yeah . phd f: yeah , so we should find out if it 's really better . i mean if it the compared to the small or the big network . phd d: mm - hmm . professor a: yeah . phd f: and perhaps we can easily improve if if we put like mean normalization before the before the vad . because as as you 've mentioned . professor a: yeah . phd f: mmm . professor a: h hynek will be back in town uh the week after next , back back in the country . so . and start start organizing uh more visits and connections and so forth , phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and uh working towards june . phd f: yeah . phd d: also is stephane was thinking that maybe it was useful to f to think about uh voiced - unvoiced phd f: mm - hmm . phd d: to work uh here in voiced - unvoiced detection . phd f: yeah . yeah . phd d: and we are looking in the uh signal . phd f: yeah , my feeling is that um actually when we look at all the proposals , ev everybody is still using some kind of spectral envelope professor a: right . phd f: and um it 's professor a: no use of pitch uh basically . yeah . phd f: yeah , well , not pitch , but to look at the um fine at the at the high re high resolution spectrum . professor a: yeah . well , it phd f: so . we do n't necessarily want to find the the pitch of the of the sound but uh cuz i have a feeling that when we look when we look at the just at the envelope there is no way you can tell if it 's voiced and unvoiced , if there is some it 's it 's easy in clean speech because voiced sound are more low frequency and . so there would be more , professor a: yeah . phd f: uh there is the first formant , which is the larger and then voiced sound are more high frequencies cuz it 's frication and professor a: right . phd f: but , yeah . when you have noise there is no um if if you have a low frequency noise it could be taken for for voiced speech and . professor a: yeah , you can make these mistakes , phd f: so . professor a: but but phd b: is n't there some other phd f: s phd b: uh d phd f: so i think that it it would be good yeah , yeah , well , go go on . phd b: uh , i was just gon na say is n't there are n't are n't there lots of ideas for doing voice activity , or speech - nonspeech rather , { comment } um by looking at um , you know , uh i guess harmonics or looking across time professor a: well , i think he was talking about the voiced - unvoiced , though , phd f: mmm . professor a: right ? so , not the speech - nonspeech . phd b: yeah . well even with e professor a: yeah . phd b: uh w ah you know , uh even with the voiced - non voiced - unvoiced phd f: mmm . phd b: um i thought that you or somebody was talking about professor a: well . uh yeah . b we should let him finish what he w he was gon na say , phd f: so . phd b: ok . professor a: and phd b: so go ahead . phd f: um yeah , so yeah , i think if we try to develop a second stream well , there would be one stream that is the envelope and the second , it could be interesting to have that 's something that 's more related to the fine structure of the spectrum . and . yeah , so i do n't know . we were thinking about like using ideas from from larry saul , have a good voice detector , have a good , well , voiced - speech detector , that 's working on on the fft and uh professor a: u phd f: larry saul could be an idea . we were are thinking about just kind of uh taking the spectrum and computing the variance of of the high resolution spectrum and things like this . professor a: so u s u ok . so so many tell you something about that . uh we had a guy here some years ago who did some work on um making use of voicing information uh to help in reducing the noise . phd f: yeah ? professor a: so what he was doing is basically y you you do estimate the pitch . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and um you from that you you estimate or you estimate fine harmonic structure , whichev ei either way , it 's more or less the same . but uh the thing is that um you then can get rid of things that are not i if there is strong harmonic structure , you can throw away stuff that 's that 's non - harmonic . phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor a: and that that is another way of getting rid of part of the noise phd f: yeah . professor a: so um that 's something that is sort of finer , phd f: yeah . professor a: brings in a little more information than just spectral subtraction . um . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and he had some i mean , he did that sort of in combination with rasta . it was kind of like rasta was taking care of convolutional stuff phd f: mmm . professor a: and he was phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and and got some some decent results doing that . so that that 's another another way . but yeah , there 's there 's phd f: yeah . mmm . professor a: right . there 's all these cues . we 've actually back when chuck was here we did some voiced - unvoiced uh classification using a bunch of these , phd f: but professor a: and and uh works ok . obviously it 's not perfect but um phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: but the thing is that you ca n't given the constraints of this task , we ca n't , in a very nice way , feed forward to the recognizer the information the probabilistic information that you might get about whether it 's voiced or unvoiced , where w we ca n't you know affect the the uh distributions or anything . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: but we what we uh i guess we could yeah . phd b: did n't the head dude send around that message ? yeah , i think you sent us all a copy of the message , where he was saying that i i 'm not sure , exactly , what the gist of what he was saying , but something having to do with the voice activity detector and that it will that people should n't put their own in or something . it was gon na be a professor a: that but ok . so that 's voice activity detector as opposed to voicing detector . phd f: they did n't . professor a: so we 're talking about something a little different . phd f: mmm . phd b: oh , i 'm sorry . professor a: right ? phd b: i i missed that . phd f: mmm . professor a: i guess what you could do , maybe this would be w useful , if if you have if you view the second stream , yeah , before you before you do klt 's and so forth , if you do view it as probabilities , and if it 's an independent so , if it 's if it 's uh not so much envelope - based by fine - structure - based , uh looking at harmonicity or something like that , um if you get a probability from that information and then multiply it by you know , multiply by all the voiced outputs and all the unvoiced outputs , you know , then use that as the phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: uh take the log of that or uh pre pre uh pre - nonlinearity , phd f: yeah . i if professor a: uh and do the klt on the on on that , phd f: yeah . professor a: then that would that would i guess be uh a reasonable use of independent information . so maybe that 's what you meant . and then that would be phd f: yeah , well , i was not thinking this yeah , this could be an yeah so you mean have some kind of probability for the v the voicing professor a: r right . so you have a second neural net . phd f: and then use a tandem system professor a: it could be pretty small . yeah . if you have a tandem system and then you have some kind of it can be pretty small net phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: we used we d did some of this stuff . uh i i did , some years ago , phd f: yeah . professor a: and the and and you use the thing is to use information primarily that 's different as you say , it 's more fine - structure - based than than envelope - based phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: uh so then it you you you can pretty much guarantee it 's stuff that you 're not looking at very well with the other one , and uh then you only use for this one distinction . phd f: alright . professor a: and and so now you 've got a probability of the cases , and you 've got uh the probability of the finer uh categories on the other side . you multiply them where appropriate and uh um phd f: i see , yeah . mm - hmm . professor a: if they really are from independent information sources then they should have different kinds of errors phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and roughly independent errors , and it 's a good choice for phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . yeah . professor a: uh . yeah , that 's a good idea . phd f: yeah . because , yeah , well , spectral subtraction is good and we could u we could use the fine structure to to have a better estimate of the noise but still there is this issue with spectral subtraction that it seems to increase the variance of of of professor a: yeah . phd f: um well it 's this musical noise which is annoying if you d you do some kind of on - line normalization after . professor a: right . phd f: so . um . yeah . well . spectral subtraction and on - line normalization do n't seem to to go together very well . i professor a: or if you do a spectral subtraction do some spectral subtraction first and then do some on - line normalization then do some more spectral subtraction i mean , maybe maybe you can do it layers or something so it does n't does n't hurt too much or something . phd f: ah , yeah . professor a: but it but uh , anyway i think i was sort of arguing against myself there by giving that example phd f: yeah . professor a: uh i mean cuz i was already sort of suggesting that we should be careful about not spending too much time on exactly what they 're doing in fact if you get if you go into uh a uh harmonics - related thing it 's definitely going to be different than what they 're doing and uh uh phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: should have some interesting properties in noise . um . i know that when have people have done um sort of the obvious thing of taking uh your feature vector and adding in some variables which are pitch related or uh that it has n't my impression it has n't particularly helped . uh . has not . phd f: it it i has not , professor a: yeah . phd f: yeah . professor a: but i think uh that 's that 's a question for this uh you know extending the feature vector versus having different streams . phd f: oh . was it nois noisy condition ? the example that you you just professor a: and and it may not have been noisy conditions . phd f: yeah . professor a: yeah . i i do n't remember the example but it was it was on some darpa data and some years ago and so it probably was n't , actually phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . yeah . but we were thinking , we discussed with barry about this , and perhaps thinking we were thinking about some kind of sheet cheating experiment where we would use timit professor a: uh - huh . phd f: and see if giving the d uh , this voicing bit would help in in terms of uh frame classification . professor a: why do n't you why do n't you just do it with aurora ? phd f: mmm . professor a: just any i in in each in each frame phd f: yeah , but but b but we can not do the cheating , this cheating thing . grad e: we 're professor a: uh grad e: we need labels . professor a: why not ? phd f: well . cuz we do n't have well , for italian perhaps we have , but we do n't have this labeling for aurora . we just have a labeling with word models professor a: i see . phd f: but not for phonemes . phd d: not for foreigners . grad e: we do n't have frame frame level transcriptions . professor a: um . phd d: right . phd f: um . yeah . professor a: but you could i mean you can you can align so that it 's not perfect , but if you if you know what was said and phd b: but the problem is that their models are all word level models . so there 's no phone models that you get alignments for . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: oh . phd b: you so you could find out where the word boundaries are but that 's about it . professor a: yeah . i see . grad e: s but we could use uh the the noisy version that timit , which you know , is similar to the the noises found in the ti - digits um portion of aurora . phd f: yeah . noise , yeah . yeah , that 's right , yep . mmm . professor a: yeah . phd f: well , i guess i guess we can we can say that it will help , but i do n't know . if this voicing bit does n't help , uh , i think we do n't have to to work more about this because professor a: uh . phd f: uh . it 's just to know if it how much i it will help professor a: yeah . phd f: and to have an idea of how much we can gain . professor a: right . i mean in experiments that we did a long time ago phd f: mmm . professor a: and different ta it was probably resource management or something , um , i think you were getting something like still eight or nine percent error on the voicing , as i recall . and um , so um grad e: another person 's voice . professor a: what that said is that , sort of , left to its own devices , like without the a strong language model and so forth , that you would you would make significant number of errors just with your uh probabilistic machinery in deciding phd b: it also professor a: one oh phd b: yeah , the though i think uh there was one problem with that in that , you know , we used canonical mapping so our truth may not have really been true to the acoustics . professor a: uh - huh . grad e: hmm . phd b: so . phd f: mmm . professor a: yeah . well back twenty years ago when i did this voiced - unvoiced stuff , we were getting more like ninety - seven or ninety - eight percent correct in voicing . but that was speaker - dependent actually . we were doing training on a particular announcer phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and and getting a very good handle on the features . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and we did this complex feature selection thing where we looked at all the different possible features one could have for voicing and and and uh and exhaustively searched all size subsets and and uh for for that particular speaker and you 'd find you know the five or six features which really did well on them . phd b: wow ! phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and then doing doing all of that we could get down to two or three percent error . but that , again , was speaker - dependent with lots of feature selection phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and a very complex sort of thing . phd f: mmm . professor a: so i would i would believe that uh it was quite likely that um looking at envelope only , that we 'd be significantly worse than that . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: uh . phd f: and the all the the speechcorders ? what 's the idea behind ? cuz they they have to oh , they do n't even have to detect voiced spe speech ? professor a: the modern ones do n't do a a simple switch . phd f: they just work on the code book professor a: they work on the code book excitation . phd f: and find out the best excitation . professor a: yeah they do analysis - by - synthesis . they try they they try every every possible excitation they have in their code book and find the one that matches best . phd f: yeah . mmm . alright . yeah . so it would not help . professor a: yeah . grad e: hmm . professor a: uh . o k . phd b: can i just mention one other interesting thing ? professor a: yeah . phd b: um . one of the ideas that we had come up with last week for things to try to improve the system um . actually i i s we did n't i guess i wrote this in after the meeting b but the thought i had was um looking at the language model that 's used in the htk recognizer , which is basically just a big loop , grad e: mm - hmm . phd b: right ? so you it goes `` digit `` phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: and then that can be either go to silence or go to another digit , which that model would allow for the production of infinitely long sequences of digits , right ? professor a: right . phd b: so . i thought `` well i 'm gon na just look at the what actual digit strings do occur in the training data . `` professor a: right . phd b: and the interesting thing was it turns out that there are no sequences of two - long or three - long digit strings in any of the aurora training data . so it 's either one , four , five , six , uh up to eleven , and then it skips and then there 's some at sixteen . professor a: but what about the testing data ? phd b: um . i do n't know . i did n't look at the test data yet . professor a: yeah . i mean if there 's some testing data that has has has two or three phd b: so . yeah . but i just thought that was a little odd , that there were no two or three long sorry . so i i just for the heck of it , i made a little grammar which um , you know , had it 's separate path for each length digit string you could get . so there was a one - long path and there was a four - long and a five - long professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: and i tried that and it got way worse . there were lots of deletions . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: so it was you know , i i did n't have any weights of these paths or i did n't have anything like that . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: and i played with tweaking the word transition penalties a bunch , but i could n't go anywhere . professor a: hmm . phd b: but um . i thought `` well if i only allow `` yeah , i guess i should have looked at to see how often there was a mistake where a two - long or a three - long path was actually put out as a hypothesis . um . but . professor a: hmm . phd b: so to do that right you 'd probably want to have allow for them all but then have weightings and things . so . i just thought that was a interesting thing about the data . professor a: ok . so we 're gon na read some more digit strings i guess ? phd b: yeah . you want to go ahead , morgan ? professor a: sure .

the professor noted that a major component in one of the waves was the air conditioner . the team had to be more cognizant about these kind reverberations in the recordings . after a threshold , the reverberations interfered with the recordings . the team thought they could look at spectral slices to further understand the problem .

what did the professor think about the effect of noise on speech frequencies ? </s> phd b: ok . we 're on . grad e: hello ? professor a: ok , so uh had some interesting mail from uh dan ellis . actually , i think he he redirected it to everybody also so uh the pda mikes uh have a big bunch of energy at at uh five hertz uh where this came up was that uh i was showing off these wave forms that we have on the web and and uh i just sort of had n't noticed this , but that the major , major component in the wave in the second wave form in that pair of wave forms is actually the air conditioner . grad c: huh . professor a: so . so . i i have to be more careful about using that as a as a as a good illustration , uh , in fact it 's not , of uh of the effects of room reverberation . it is is n't a bad illustration of the effects of uh room noise . on on uh some mikes uh but so . and then we had this other discussion about um whether this affects the dynamic range , cuz i know , although we start off with thirty two bits , you end up with uh sixteen bits and you know , are we getting hurt there ? but uh dan is pretty confident that we 're not , that that quantization error is not is still not a significant factor there . so . so there was a question of whether we should change things here , whether we should change a capacitor on the input box for that or whether we should phd b: yeah , he suggested a smaller capacitor , right ? professor a: right . but then i had some other uh thing discussions with him phd b: for the p d professor a: and the feeling was once we start monk monkeying with that , uh , many other problems could ha happen . and additionally we we already have a lot of data that 's been collected with that , so . phd b: yeah . professor a: a simple thing to do is he he he has a i forget if it this was in that mail or in the following mail , but he has a a simple filter , a digital filter that he suggested . we just run over the data before we deal with it . phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: um the other thing that i do n't know the answer to , but when people are using feacalc here , uh whether they 're using it with the high - pass filter option or not . and i do n't know if anybody knows . grad e: um . i could go check . professor a: but . yeah . so when we 're doing all these things using our software there is um if it 's if it 's based on the rasta - plp program , which does both plp and rasta - plp um then uh there is an option there which then comes up through to feacalc which um allows you to do high - pass filtering and in general we like to do that , because of things like this and it 's it 's pretty it 's not a very severe filter . does n't affect speech frequencies , even pretty low speech frequencies , at all , but it 's phd b: what 's the cut - off frequency it used ? professor a: oh . i do n't know i wrote this a while ago phd b: is it like twenty ? professor a: something like that . phd b: yeah . professor a: yeah . i mean i think there 's some effect above twenty but it 's it 's it 's it 's mild . so , i mean it probably there 's probably some effect up to a hundred hertz or something but it 's it 's pretty mild . i do n't know in the in the strut implementation of the stuff is there a high - pass filter or a pre pre - emphasis or something in the phd f: uh . i think we use a pre - emphasis . yeah . yeah . professor a: so . we we we want to go and check that in i for anything that we 're going to use the p d a mike for . uh he says that there 's a pretty good roll off in the pzm mikes so we do n't need need to worry about them one way or the other but if we do make use of the cheap mikes , uh we want to be sure to do that that filtering before we process it . and then again if it 's uh depending on the option that the our our software is being run with , it 's it 's quite possible that 's already being taken care of . uh but i also have to pick a different picture to show the effects of reverberation . uh phd b: did somebody notice it during your talk ? professor a: uh no . phd b: huh . professor a: well . uh well . if they made output they were they were , you know they were nice . phd b: did n't say anything ? professor a: but . i mean the thing is it was since i was talking about reverberation and showing this thing that was noise , it was n't a good match , but it certainly was still uh an indication of the fact that you get noise with distant mikes . uh it 's just not a great example because not only is n't it reverberation but it 's a noise that we definitely know what to do . phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: so , i mean , it does n't take deep a new bold new methods to get rid of uh five hertz noise , so . phd b: yeah . professor a: um uh but . so it was it was a bad example in that way , but it 's it still is it 's the real thing that we did get out of the microphone at distance , so it was n't it w it w was n't wrong it was inappropriate . so . so uh , but uh , yeah , someone noticed it later pointed it out to me , and i went `` oh , man . why did n't i notice that ? `` phd b: hmm . professor a: um . so . um so i think we 'll change our our picture on the web , when we 're @ @ . one of the things i was i mean , i was trying to think about what what 's the best way to show the difference an and i had a couple of thoughts one was , that spectrogram that we show is o k , but the thing is the eyes uh and the the brain behind them are so good at picking out patterns from from noise that in first glance you look at them it does n't seem like it 's that bad uh because there 's many features that are still preserved . so one thing to do might be to just take a piece of the spec uh of the spectrogram where you can see that something looks different , an and blow it up , and have that be the part that 's just to show as well . you know . phd b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor a: i i some things are going to be hurt . um another , i was thinking of was um taking some spectral slices , like uh like we look at with the recognizer , and look at the spectrum or cepstrum that you get out of there , and the the uh , um , the reverberation uh does make it does change that . and so maybe maybe that would be more obvious . phd b: hmm . grad c: spectral slices ? professor a: yeah . grad c: w w what d what do you mean ? professor a: well , i mean um all the recognizers look at frames . so they they look at phd b: so like one instant in time . professor a: yeah , look at a grad c: ok . professor a: so it 's , yeah , at one point in time or uh twenty over twenty milliseconds or something , you have a spectrum or a cepstrum . grad c: ok . professor a: that 's what i meant by a slice . grad c: i see . professor a: yeah . and if you look at phd b: you could just you could just throw up , you know , uh the uh some mfcc feature vectors . you know , one from one , one from the other , and then , you know , you can look and see how different the numbers are . professor a: right . well , that 's why i saying either well , either spectrum or cepstrum phd b: i 'm just kidding . professor a: but but i think the thing is you wan na phd b: i do n't mean a graph . i mean the actual numbers . professor a: oh . i see . oh . that would be lovely , yeah . phd b: yeah . `` see how different these sequences of numbers are ? `` professor a: yeah . or i could just add them up and get a different total . phd b: yeah . it 's not the square . professor a: ok . uh . what else wh what 's what else is going on ? phd f: uh , yeah . yeah , at first i had a remark why i am wondering why the pda is always so far . i mean we are always meeting at the beginning of the table and the pda 's there . professor a: uh . i guess cuz we have n't wanted to move it . we we could we could move us , phd f: yeah ? professor a: and . phd f: ok . grad e: that 's right . phd f: well , anyway . um . yeah , so . uh . since the last meeting we 've we 've tried to put together um the clean low - pass um downsampling , upsampling , i mean , uh the new filter that 's replacing the lda filters , and also the um delay issue so that we considered th the the delay issue on the for the on - line normalization . mmm . so we 've put together all this and then we have results that are not um very impressive . well , there is no real improvement . professor a: but it 's not wer worse and it 's better better latency , phd f: it 's not professor a: right ? phd f: yeah . yeah . well . actually it 's better . it seems better when we look at the mismatched case but i think we are like like cheated here by the th this problem that uh in some cases when you modify slight slightly modify the initial condition you end up completely somewhere air somewhere else in the in the space , the parameters . professor a: yeah . phd f: so . well . the other system are for instance . for italian is at seventy - eight percent recognition rate on the mismatch , and this new system has eighty - nine . but i do n't think it indicates something , really . i do n't i do n't think it means that the new system is more robust professor a: uh - huh . phd f: or it 's simply the fact that well . professor a: well , the test would be if you then tried it on one of the other test sets , if if it was phd f: y professor a: right . so this was italian , right ? phd f: yeah . yeah . professor a: so then if you take your changes phd f: it 's similar for other test sets professor a: and then phd f: but i mean from this se seventy - eight um percent recognition rate system , i could change the transition probabilities for the the first hmm and it will end up to eighty - nine also . professor a: uh - huh . phd f: by using point five instead of point six , point four as in the the htk script . professor a: uh - huh . yeah . phd f: so . well . that 's phd b: yeah . yeah i looked at um looked at the results when stephane did that phd f: well . eh uh phd b: and it 's it 's really wo really happens . phd f: this really happens . phd b: i mean th the only difference is you change the self - loop transition probability by a tenth of a percent phd f: yeah . professor a: yeah . phd b: and it causes ten percent difference in the word error rate . professor a: a tenth of a per cent . phd b: yeah . from point phd f: even tenth of a percent ? phd b: i i 'm sorry phd f: well , we tried we tried point one , phd b: f for point from you change at point one phd f: yeah . professor a: oh ! phd b: and n not tenth of a percent , one tenth , phd f: hmm . professor a: yeah . phd b: alright ? um so from point five so from point six to point five and you get ten percent better . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: and it 's i think it 's what you basically hypothesized in the last meeting about uh it just being very phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: and i think you mentioned this in your email too it 's just very um phd f: mmm , yeah . phd b: you know get stuck in some local minimum and this thing throws you out of it i guess . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: well , what 's what are according to the rules what what are we supposed to do about the transition probabilities ? are they supposed to be point five or point six ? phd b: i think you 're not allowed to yeah . that 's supposed to be point six , for the self - loop . phd f: yeah . professor a: point it 's supposed to be point six . phd b: yeah . but changing it to point five i think is which gives you much better results , but that 's not allowed . professor a: but not allowed ? yeah . ok . phd b: yeah . phd f: yeah , but even if you use point five , i 'm not sure it will always give you the better results phd b: yeah . phd f: on other test set or it phd b: right . we only tested it on the the medium mismatch , phd f: on the other training set , i mean . phd b: right ? you said on the other cases you did n't notice phd f: yeah . but . i think , yeah . i think the reason is , yeah , i not i it was in my mail i think also , is the fact that the mismatch is trained only on the far microphone . well , in for the mismatched case everything is um using the far microphone training and testing , whereas for the highly mismatched , training is done on the close microphone so it 's it 's clean speech basically so you do n't have this problem of local minima probably and for the well - match , it 's a mix of close microphone and distant microphone and well . phd b: i did notice uh something phd f: so th i think the mismatch is the more difficult for the training part . phd b: somebody , i think it was morgan , suggested at the last meeting that i actually count to see how many parameters and how many frames . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: and there are uh almost one point eight million frames of training data and less than forty thousand parameters in the baseline system . professor a: hmm . phd f: yeah . phd b: so it 's very , very few parameters compared to how much training data . professor a: well . yes . phd d: mm - hmm . professor a: so . and that that says that we could have lots more parameters actually . phd b: yeah . yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: i did one quick experiment just to make sure i had everything worked out and i just uh f for most of the um for for all of the digit models , they end up at three mixtures per state . and so i just did a quick experiment , where i changed it so it went to four and um it it it did n't have a r any significant effect at the uh medium mismatch and high mismatch cases and it had it was just barely significant for the well - matched better . uh so i 'm r gon na run that again but um with many more uh mixtures per state . professor a: yeah . cuz at forty thou i mean you could you could have uh yeah , easily four times as many parameters . phd b: mm - hmm . and i think also just seeing what we saw uh in terms of the expected duration of the silence model ? when we did this tweaking of the self - loop ? the silence model expected duration was really different . phd f: yeah . phd b: and so in the case where um it had a better score , the silence model expected duration was much longer . phd f: yeah . phd b: so it was like it was a better match . i think you know if we make a better silence model i think that will help a lot too um for a lot of these cases so but one one thing i i wanted to check out before i increased the um number of mixtures per state was uh in their default training script they do an initial set of three re - estimations and then they built the silence model and then they do seven iterations then the add mixtures and they do another seven then they add mixtures then they do a final set of seven and they quit . seven seems like a lot to me and it also makes the experiments go take a really long time i mean to do one turn - around of the well matched case takes like a day . professor a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd b: and so you know in trying to run these experiments i notice , you know , it 's difficult to find machines , you know , compute the run on . and so one of the things i did was i compiled htk for the linux machines professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: cuz we have this one from ibm that 's got like five processors in it ? professor a: right . phd b: and so now i 'm you can run stuff on that and that really helps a lot because now we 've got you know , extra machines that we can use for compute . and if i 'm do running an experiment right now where i 'm changing the number of iterations ? from seven to three ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor a: yeah . phd b: just to see how it affects the baseline system . and so if we can get away with just doing three , we can do many more experiments more quickly . and if it 's not a a huge difference from running with seven iterations , um , you know , we should be able to get a lot more experiments done . phd f: hmm . phd b: and so . i 'll let you know what what happens with that . but if we can you know , run all of these back - ends f with many fewer iterations and on linux boxes we should be able to get a lot more experimenting done . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: so . so i wanted to experiment with cutting down the number of iterations before i increased the number of gaussians . professor a: right . sorry . so um , how 's it going on the phd f: um . professor a: so . you you did some things . they did n't improve things in a way that convinced you you 'd substantially improved anything . phd f: yeah . professor a: but they 're not making things worse and we have reduced latency , right ? phd f: yeah . but actually um actually it seems to do a little bit worse for the well - matched case and we just noticed that yeah , actually the way the final score is computed is quite funny . it 's not a mean of word error rate . it 's not a weighted mean of word error rate , it 's a weighted mean of improvements . professor a: uh - huh . phd f: so . which means that actually the weight on the well - matched is well i well what what what happened is that if you have a small improvement or a small if on the well - matched case it will have uh huge influence on the improvement compared to the reference because the reference system is is is quite good for for the well - ma well - matched case also . phd b: so it it weights the improvement on the well - matched case really heavily compared to the improvement on the other cases ? phd f: no , but it 's the weighting of the of the improvement not of the error rate . phd b: yeah . yeah , and it 's hard to improve on the on the best case , cuz it 's already so good , right ? phd f: yeah but what i mean is that you can have a huge improvement on the h hmk 's , uh like five percent uh absolute , and this will not affect the final score almost uh this will almost not affect the final score because this improvement because the improvement uh relative to the the baseline is small professor a: so they do improvement in terms of uh accuracy ? rather than word error rate ? phd f: uh . uh improvement ? professor a: so phd f: no , it 's compared to the word er it 's improvement on the word error rate , professor a: ok . phd f: yeah . sorry . professor a: so if you have uh ten percent error and you get five percent absolute uh improvement then that 's fifty percent . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: ok . so what you 're saying then is that if it 's something that has a small word error rate , then uh a even a relatively small improvement on it , in absolute terms , will show up as quite quite large in this . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: is that what you 're saying ? phd f: yeah . professor a: yes . phd f: yeah . professor a: ok . but yeah that 's that 's it 's the notion of relative improvement . word error rate . phd f: yeah . sure , but when we think about the weighting , which is point five , point three , point two , it 's on absolute on on relative figures , professor a: yeah . phd f: not professor a: yeah . phd f: so when we look at this error rate professor a: no . that 's why i 've been saying we should be looking at word error rate uh and and not not at at accuracies . phd f: uh mmm , yeah . mmm , yeah . professor a: it 's phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: i mean uh we probably should have standardized on that all the way through . it 's just phd b: well . phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean , it 's not it 's not that different , right ? i mean , just subtract the accuracy . professor a: yeah but you 're but when you look at the numbers , your sense of the relative size of things is quite different . phd b: i mean oh . oh , i see . yeah . professor a: if you had ninety percent uh correct and five percent , five over ninety does n't look like it 's a big difference , but five over ten is is big . phd b: mm - hmm . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: so just when we were looking at a lot of numbers and getting sense of what was important . phd b: i see . i see . yeah . that makes sense . professor a: um . phd f: mmm . professor a: um . phd f: well anyway uh . so . yeah . so it hurts a little bit on the well - match and yeah . professor a: what 's a little bit ? like phd f: like , it 's difficult to say because again um i 'm not sure i have the um phd b: hey morgan ? do you remember that signif program that we used to use for testing signi ? is that still valid ? i i 've been using that . professor a: yeah . yeah , it was actually updated . phd b: ok . professor a: uh . jeff updated it some years ago phd b: oh , it was . oh , i shoul professor a: and and uh cleaned it up made some things better in it . so . phd b: ok . i should find that new one . i just use my old one from ninety - two or whatever professor a: yeah , i 'm sure it 's not that different but but he he uh he was a little more rigorous , as i recall . phd b: ok . phd f: right . so it 's around , like , point five . no , point six { comment } uh percent absolute on italian professor a: worse . phd f: worse , yep . professor a: out of what ? i mean . s phd f: uh well we start from ninety - four point sixty - four , and we go to ninety - four point o four . professor a: uh - huh . so that 's six six point th phd f: uh . phd b: ninety - three point six four , right ? is the baseline . phd f: oh , no , i 've ninety - four . oh , the baseline , you mean . phd b: yeah . phd f: well i do n't i 'm not talking about the baseline here . phd b: oh . oh . i 'm sorry . phd f: i uh my baseline is the submitted system . phd b: ah ! ok . ah , ah . phd f: hmm . professor a: yeah . phd b: sorry . phd f: oh yeah . for finnish , we start to ninety - three point eight - four and we go to ninety - three point seventy - four . and for spanish we are we were at ninety - five point o five and we go to ninety - three - s point sixty one . professor a: ok , so we are getting hurt somewhat . phd f: so . professor a: and is that wh what do you know what piece you 've done several changes here . uh , do you know what pie phd f: yeah . i guess i guess it 's it 's the filter . because nnn , well uh we do n't have complete result , but the filter so the filter with the shorter delay hurts on italian well - matched , which and , yeah . and the other things , like um downsampling , upsampling , do n't seem to hurt and the new on - line normalization , neither . phd b: i 'm phd f: so . phd b: i 'm really confused about something . if we saw that making a small change like , you know , a tenth , to the self - loop had a huge effect , can we really make any conclusions about differences in this stuff ? phd f: mm - hmm . yeah that 's th yeah . phd b: i mean , especially when they 're this small . i mean . phd f: i think we can be completely fooled by this thing , but i do n't know . professor a: well , yeah . phd f: so . there is first this thing , and then the yeah , i computed the um like , the confidence level on the different test sets . and for the well - matched they are around um point six uh percent . for the mismatched they are around like let 's say one point five percent . and for the well - m uh hm they are also around one point five . professor a: but ok , so you these these degradations you were talking about were on the well - matched case phd f: so . professor a: uh . do the does the new filter make things uh better or worse for the other cases ? phd f: yeah . but . uh . about the same . it does n't hurt . yeah . professor a: does n't hurt , but does n't get a little better , or something . phd f: no . professor a: no . ok , so um i guess the argument one might make is that , `` yeah , if you looked at one of these cases and you jiggle something and it changes then uh you 're not quite sure what to make of it . but when you look across a bunch of these and there 's some some pattern , um i mean , so eh h here 's all the if if in all these different cases it never gets better , and there 's significant number of cases where it gets worse , then you 're probably hurting things , i would say . so um i mean at the very least that would be a reasonably prediction of what would happen with with a different test set , that you 're not jiggling things with . so i guess the question is if you can do better than this . if you can if we can approximate the old numbers while still keeping the latency down . phd f: mmm . yeah . professor a: uh , so . um . what i was asking , though , is uh are what 's what 's the level of communication with uh the o g i gang now , about this and phd f: well , we are exchanging mail as soon as we we have significant results . professor a: yeah . phd f: um . yeah . for the moment , they are working on integrating the um spectral subtraction apparently from ericsson . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: um . yeah . and so . yeah . we are working on our side on other things like uh also trying a sup spectral subtraction but of of our own , i mean , another spectral substraction . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: um . yeah . so i think it 's it 's ok . it 's going professor a: is there any further discussion about this this idea of of having some sort of source code control ? phd f: yeah . well . for the moment they 're uh everybody 's quite um there is this eurospeech deadline , so . professor a: i see . phd f: um . and . yeah . but yeah . as soon as we have something that 's significant and that 's better than than what was submitted , we will fix fix the system and but we 've not discussed it it it this yet , yeah . professor a: yeah . sounds like a great idea but but i think that that um he 's saying people are sort of scrambling for a eurospeech deadline . phd f: mmm . professor a: but that 'll be uh , uh done in a week . so , maybe after this next one . phd f: yeah . phd b: wow ! already a week ! man ! professor a: yeah . phd b: you 're right . that 's amazing . professor a: yeah . anybo - anybody in the in this group do doing anything for eurospeech ? phd f: s professor a: or , is that what is that phd f: yeah we are we are trying to to do something with the meeting recorder digits , professor a: right . phd f: and but yeah . yeah . and the good thing is that there is this first deadline , professor a: yeah . phd f: and , well , some people from ogi are working on a paper for this , but there is also the um special session about th aurora which is uh which has an extended deadline . so . the deadline is in may . professor a: for uh oh , for eurospeech ? phd f: for th yeah . professor a: oh ! phd f: so f only for the experiments on aurora . so it it 's good , professor a: oh , a special dispensation . phd f: yeah . professor a: that 's great . phd b: mm - hmm . where is eurospeech this year ? phd f: it 's in denmark . professor a: aalborg aalborg uh phd b: oh . professor a: so the deadline when 's the deadline ? when 's the deadline ? phd f: hmm ? i think it 's the thirteenth of may . professor a: that 's great ! it 's great . so we should definitely get something in for that . phd f: yeah . professor a: but on meeting digits , maybe there 's maybe . phd f: yeah . professor a: maybe . phd f: so it would be for the first deadline . professor a: yeah . phd f: nnn . professor a: yeah . so , i mean , i i think that you could certainly start looking at at the issue uh but but uh i think it 's probably , on s from what stephane is saying , it 's it 's unlikely to get sort of active participation from the two sides until after they 've phd b: well i could at least well , i 'm going to be out next week but i could try to look into like this uh cvs over the web . that seems to be a very popular way of people distributing changes and over , you know , multiple sites and things professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: so maybe if i can figure out how do that easily and then pass the information on to everybody so that it 's you know , as easy to do as possible and and people do n't it wo n't interfere with { comment } their regular work , then maybe that would be good . and i think we could use it for other things around here too . so . professor a: good . grad c: that 's cool . and if you 're interested in using cvs , i 've set it up here , phd b: oh great . grad c: so . phd b: ok . grad c: um j phd b: i used it a long time ago but it 's been a while so maybe i can ask you some questions . grad c: oh . so . i 'll be away tomorrow and monday but i 'll be back on tuesday or wednesday . phd b: ok . professor a: yeah . dave , the other thing , actually , is is this business about this wave form . maybe you and i can talk a little bit at some point about coming up with a better uh demonstration of the effects of reverberation for our web page , cuz uh the uh um i mean , actually the the uh it made a good good audio demonstration because when we could play that clip the the the really obvious difference is that you can hear two voices and in the second one and only hear phd b: maybe we could just like , talk into a cup . professor a: yeah . phd b: some good reverb . professor a: no , i mean , it sound it sounds pretty reverberant , but i mean you ca n't when you play it back in a room with a you know a big room , nobody can hear that difference really . grad c: yeah . professor a: they hear that it 's lower amplitude and they hear there 's a second voice , grad c: uh - huh . professor a: um but uh that actually that makes for a perfectly good demo because that 's a real obvious thing , that you hear two voices . phd b: but not of reverberation . professor a: yeah . grad c: a boom . professor a: well that that that 's ok . but for the the visual , just , you know , i 'd like to have uh uh , you know , the spectrogram again , grad c: yeah . professor a: because you 're you 're you 're visual uh abilities as a human being are so good you can pick out you know , you you look at the good one , you look at the cru the screwed up one , and and you can see the features in it without trying to @ @ phd b: i noticed that in the pictures . professor a: yeah . phd b: i thought `` hey , you know th `` i my initial thought was `` this is not too bad ! `` professor a: right . but you have to you know , if you look at it closely , you see `` well , here 's a place where this one has a big formant uh uh formant maj major formants here are are moving quite a bit . `` and then you look in the other one and they look practically flat . phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: so i mean you could that 's why i was thinking , in a section like that , you could take a look look at just that part of the spectrogram and you could say `` oh yeah . this this really distorted it quite a bit . `` phd b: yeah . the main thing that struck me in looking at those two spectrograms was the difference in the high frequencies . it looked like for the one that was farther away , you know , it really everything was attenuated professor a: right . phd b: and i mean that was the main visual thing that i noticed . professor a: right . but it 's it 's uh so . yeah . so there are clearly are spectral effects . since you 're getting all this indirect energy , then a lot of it does have have uh reduced high frequencies . but um the other thing is the temporal courses of things really are changed , and and uh we want to show that , in some obvious way . the reason i put the wave forms in there was because uh they they do look quite different . uh . and so i thought `` oh , this is good . `` but i i just uh after after uh they were put in there i did n't really look at them anymore , cuz i just they were different . so i want something that has a is a more interesting explanation for why they 're different . um . grad c: oh . so maybe we can just substitute one of these wave forms and um then do some kind of zoom in on the spectrogram on an interesting area . professor a: something like that . yeah . grad c: uh - huh . professor a: the other thing that we had in there that i did n't like was that um the most obvious characteristic of the difference uh when you listen to it is that there 's a second voice , and the the the the the uh cuts that we have there actually do n't correspond to the full wave form . it 's just the first i think there was something where he was having some trouble getting so much in , or . i i forget the reason behind it . but it it 's um it 's the first six seconds or something of it and it 's in the seventh or eighth second or something where @ @ the second voice comes in . so we we would like to actually see the voice coming in , too , i think , since that 's the most obvious thing when you listen to it . grad c: mm - hmm . professor a: so . um . phd f: uh , yeah . yeah . i brought some i do n't know if some figures here . well . i start we started to work on spectral subtraction . and um the preliminary results were very bad . professor a: uh - huh . phd f: so the thing that we did is just to add spectral subtraction before this , the wall uh process , which contains lda on - line normalization . and it hurts uh a lot . professor a: uh - huh . phd f: and so we started to look at at um things like this , which is , well , it 's yeah . so you have the c - zero parameters for one uh italian utterance . phd d: you can @ @ . phd f: and i plotted this for two channels . channel zero is the close mic microphone , and channel one is the distant microphone . and it 's perfectly synchronized , so . and the sentence contain only one word , which is `` due `` and it ca n't clearly be seen . where where is it ? professor a: uh - huh . phd f: where is the word ? phd b: this is this is , grad e: hmm . phd b: oh , a plot of c - zero , phd f: so . phd b: the energy . phd f: this is a plot of c - zero , uh when we do n't use spectral substraction , and when there is no on - line normalization . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: so . there is just some filtering with the lda and and some downsampling , upsampling . phd b: c - zero is the close talking ? phd f: so . phd b: uh the close channel ? phd f: yeah . yeah . phd b: and s channel one is the phd f: yeah . so c - zero is very clean , actually . phd b: yeah . phd f: uh then when we apply mean normalization it looks like the second figure , though it is not . which is good . well , the noise part is around zero professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: and and then the third figure is what happens when we apply mean normalization and variance normalization . so . what we can clearly see is that on the speech portion the two channel come becomes very close , but also what happens on the noisy portion is that the variance of the noise is professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: this is still being a plot of c - zero ? ok . phd f: yeah . this is still c - zero . phd b: can i ask um what does variance normalization do ? w what is the effect of that ? professor a: normalizes the variance . phd f: so it it yeah . phd b: i mean phd f: it normalized th the standard deviation . phd b: y yeah . phd f: so it phd b: no , i understand that , phd f: you you get an estimate of the standard deviation . phd b: but i mean phd f: that 's phd b: no . phd f: um phd b: no , i understand what it is , but i mean , what does it what 's what is phd f: yeah but . phd b: uh professor a: what 's the rationale ? phd b: we yeah . yeah . why why do it ? phd f: uh . professor a: well , i mean , because everything uh if you have a system based on gaussians , everything is based on means and variances . phd b: yeah . professor a: so if there 's an overall reason you know , it 's like uh if you were doing uh image processing and in some of the pictures you were looking at , uh there was a lot of light uh and and in some , there was low light , phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: you know , you would want to adjust for that in order to compare things . phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: and the variance is just sort of like the next moment , you know ? so uh what if um one set of pictures was taken uh so that throughout the course it was went through daylight and night uh um um ten times , another time it went thr i mean i is , you know , how how much how much vari phd b: oh , ok . professor a: or no . i guess a better example would be how much of the light was coming in from outside rather than artificial light . so if it was a lot if more was coming from outside , then there 'd be the bigger effect of the of the of the change in the so every mean every all all of the the parameters that you have , especially the variances , are going to be affected by the overall variance . phd b: oh , ok . uh - huh . professor a: and so , in principle , you if you remove that source , then , you know , you can phd b: i see . ok . so would the major effect is that you 're gon na get is by normalizing the means , professor a: that 's the first order but thing , phd b: but it may help first - order effects . professor a: but then the second order is is the variances phd b: and it may help to do the variance . ok . professor a: because , again , if you if you 're trying to distinguish between e and b phd b: ok . professor a: if it just so happens that the e 's were a more you know , were recorded when when the energy was was was larger or something , phd b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor a: or the variation in it was larger , uh than with the b 's , then this will be give you some some bias . phd b: professor a: so the it 's removing these sources of variability in the data that have nothing to do with the linguistic component . phd b: ok . phd f: mmm . phd b: gotcha . ok . sorry to interrupt . professor a: but the the uh but let me as ask ask you something . phd f: yep . and it and this professor a: i is if if you have a good voice activity detector , is n't is n't it gon na pull that out ? phd f: yeah . sure . if they are good . yeah . well what it it shows is that , yeah , perhaps a good voice activity detector is is good before on - line normalization and that 's what uh we 've already observed . but uh , yeah , voice activity detection is not an easy thing neither . phd b: but after you do this , after you do the variance normalization i mean . phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: i do n't know , it seems like this would be a lot easier than this signal to work with . phd f: yeah . so . what i notice is that , while i prefer to look at the second figure than at the third one , well , because you clearly see where speech is . professor a: yeah . phd b: yeah . phd f: but the problem is that on the speech portion , channel zero and channel one are more different than when you use variance normalization where channel zero and channel one become closer . professor a: right . phd b: but for the purposes of finding the speech phd f: and yeah , but here phd b: you 're more interested in the difference between the speech and the nonspeech , phd f: yeah . phd b: right ? phd f: yeah . so i think , yeah . for i th i think that it perhaps it shows that uh the parameters that the voice activity detector should use uh have to use should be different than the parameter that have to be used for speech recognition . professor a: yeah . so basically you want to reduce this effect . phd f: well , y professor a: so you can do that by doing the voi voice activity detection . you also could do it by spect uh spectral subtraction before the variance normalization , right ? phd f: yeah , but it 's not clear , yeah . professor a: so uh phd f: we so . well . it 's just to professor a: yeah . phd f: the the number that at that are here are recognition experiments on italian hm and mm with these two kinds of parameters . and , well , it 's better with variance normalization . professor a: yeah . yeah . so it does get better even though it looks ugly . phd f: uh professor a: ok . but does this have the voice activity detection in it ? phd f: yeah . professor a: ok . phd f: um . professor a: so . grad e: ok . phd b: where 's th phd f: but the fact is that the voice activity detector does n't work on channel one . so . yeah . professor a: uh - huh . phd b: where at what stage is the voice activity detector applied ? is it applied here or a after the variance normalization ? phd f: hmm ? professor a: spectral subtraction , i guess . phd b: or phd f: it 's applied before variance normalization . so it 's a good thing , phd b: oh . phd f: because i guess voice activity detection on this should could be worse . phd b: yeah . is it applied all the way back here ? phd f: it 's applied the um on , yeah , something like this , phd b: maybe that 's why it does n't work for channel one . phd f: yeah . perhaps , yeah . professor a: can i phd f: so we could perhaps do just mean normalization before vad . phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: mm - hmm . can i ask a , i mean a sort of top - level question , which is um `` if if most of what the ogi folk are working with is trying to integrate this other other uh spectral subtraction , why are we worrying about it ? `` phd f: mm - hmm . about ? spectral subtraction ? professor a: yeah . phd f: it 's just uh well it 's another they are trying to u to use the um the ericsson and we 're trying to use something something else . and . yeah , and also to understand what happens because professor a: ok . phd f: uh fff well . when we do spectral subtraction , actually , i think that this is the the two last figures . professor a: yeah . phd f: um . it seems that after spectral subtraction , speech is more emerging now uh than than before . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: speech is more what ? phd f: well , the difference between the energy of the speech and the energy of the n spectral subtrac subtracted noise portion is is larger . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: well , if you compare the first figure to this one actually the scale is not the same , but if you look at the the numbers um you clearly see that the difference between the c - zero of the speech and c - zero of the noise portion is larger . uh but what happens is that after spectral subtraction , you also increase the variance of this of c - zero . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: and so if you apply variance normalization on this , it completely sc screw everything . well . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: um . uh . yeah . so yeah . and what they did at ogi is just uh they do n't use on - line normalization , for the moment , on spectral subtraction and i think yeah . i think as soon as they will try on - line normalization there will be a problem . so yeah , we 're working on the same thing but i think uh with different different system and professor a: right . i mean , i the intellectually it 's interesting to work on things th uh one way or the other phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: but i 'm i 'm just wondering if um on the list of things that there are to do , if there are things that we wo n't do because we 've got two groups doing the same thing . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: um . that 's phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: um . just just asking . uh . i mean , it 's phd f: yeah , well , phd b: there also could be i mean . i can maybe see a reason f for both working on it too phd f: uh . phd b: if um you know , if if if you work on something else and and you 're waiting for them to give you spectral subtraction i mean it 's hard to know whether the effects that you get from the other experiments you do will carry over once you then bring in their spectral subtraction module . so it 's it 's almost like everything 's held up waiting for this one thing . i do n't know if that 's true or not , but i could see how phd f: mmm . professor a: i do n't know . phd b: maybe that 's what you were thinking . professor a: i do n't know . i mean , we still evidently have a latency reduction plan which which is n't quite what you 'd like it to be . that that seems like one prominent thing . and then uh were n't issues of of having a a second stream or something ? that was was it there was this business that , you know , we we could use up the full forty - eight hundred bits , and phd f: yeah . but i think they ' i think we want to work on this . they also want to work on this , so . uh . yeah . we we will try msg , but um , yeah . and they are t i think they want to work on the second stream also , but more with some kind of multi - band or , well , what they call trap or generalized trap . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: um . so . professor a: ok . do you remember when the next meeting is supposed to be ? the next uh phd f: it 's uh in june . professor a: in june . ok . phd f: yeah . professor a: yeah . um . yeah , the other thing is that you saw that that mail about uh the vad v a ds performing quite differently ? that that uh so um . this there was this experiment of uh `` what if we just take the baseline ? `` phd f: mmm . professor a: set uh of features , just mel cepstra , and you inc incorporate the different v a and it looks like the the french vad is actually uh better significantly better . phd b: improves the baseline ? professor a: yeah . yeah . phd f: yeah but i do n't know which vad they use . uh . if the use the small vad i th i think it 's on i think it 's easy to do better because it does n't work at all . so . i i do n't know which which one . it 's pratibha that that did this experiment . phd d: yeah . phd f: um . we should ask which vad she used . phd d: i do n't @ @ . he actually , i think that he say with the good vad of from ogi and with the alcatel vad . and the experiment was sometime better , sometime worse . phd f: yeah but i it 's uh i think you were talking about the other mail that used vad on the reference features . professor a: yes . phd f: yeah . professor a: and on that one , uh the french one is was better . phd d: i do n't remember . professor a: it was just better . phd d: mm - hmm . professor a: i mean it was enough better that that it would uh account for a fair amount of the difference between our performance , actually . phd f: mm - hmm . phd d: mm - hmm . professor a: so . uh . so if they have a better one , we should use it . i mean . you know ? it 's you ca n't work on everything . phd f: yeah . professor a: uh . uh . yeah . phd f: yeah , so we should find out if it 's really better . i mean if it the compared to the small or the big network . phd d: mm - hmm . professor a: yeah . phd f: and perhaps we can easily improve if if we put like mean normalization before the before the vad . because as as you 've mentioned . professor a: yeah . phd f: mmm . professor a: h hynek will be back in town uh the week after next , back back in the country . so . and start start organizing uh more visits and connections and so forth , phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and uh working towards june . phd f: yeah . phd d: also is stephane was thinking that maybe it was useful to f to think about uh voiced - unvoiced phd f: mm - hmm . phd d: to work uh here in voiced - unvoiced detection . phd f: yeah . yeah . phd d: and we are looking in the uh signal . phd f: yeah , my feeling is that um actually when we look at all the proposals , ev everybody is still using some kind of spectral envelope professor a: right . phd f: and um it 's professor a: no use of pitch uh basically . yeah . phd f: yeah , well , not pitch , but to look at the um fine at the at the high re high resolution spectrum . professor a: yeah . well , it phd f: so . we do n't necessarily want to find the the pitch of the of the sound but uh cuz i have a feeling that when we look when we look at the just at the envelope there is no way you can tell if it 's voiced and unvoiced , if there is some it 's it 's easy in clean speech because voiced sound are more low frequency and . so there would be more , professor a: yeah . phd f: uh there is the first formant , which is the larger and then voiced sound are more high frequencies cuz it 's frication and professor a: right . phd f: but , yeah . when you have noise there is no um if if you have a low frequency noise it could be taken for for voiced speech and . professor a: yeah , you can make these mistakes , phd f: so . professor a: but but phd b: is n't there some other phd f: s phd b: uh d phd f: so i think that it it would be good yeah , yeah , well , go go on . phd b: uh , i was just gon na say is n't there are n't are n't there lots of ideas for doing voice activity , or speech - nonspeech rather , { comment } um by looking at um , you know , uh i guess harmonics or looking across time professor a: well , i think he was talking about the voiced - unvoiced , though , phd f: mmm . professor a: right ? so , not the speech - nonspeech . phd b: yeah . well even with e professor a: yeah . phd b: uh w ah you know , uh even with the voiced - non voiced - unvoiced phd f: mmm . phd b: um i thought that you or somebody was talking about professor a: well . uh yeah . b we should let him finish what he w he was gon na say , phd f: so . phd b: ok . professor a: and phd b: so go ahead . phd f: um yeah , so yeah , i think if we try to develop a second stream well , there would be one stream that is the envelope and the second , it could be interesting to have that 's something that 's more related to the fine structure of the spectrum . and . yeah , so i do n't know . we were thinking about like using ideas from from larry saul , have a good voice detector , have a good , well , voiced - speech detector , that 's working on on the fft and uh professor a: u phd f: larry saul could be an idea . we were are thinking about just kind of uh taking the spectrum and computing the variance of of the high resolution spectrum and things like this . professor a: so u s u ok . so so many tell you something about that . uh we had a guy here some years ago who did some work on um making use of voicing information uh to help in reducing the noise . phd f: yeah ? professor a: so what he was doing is basically y you you do estimate the pitch . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and um you from that you you estimate or you estimate fine harmonic structure , whichev ei either way , it 's more or less the same . but uh the thing is that um you then can get rid of things that are not i if there is strong harmonic structure , you can throw away stuff that 's that 's non - harmonic . phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor a: and that that is another way of getting rid of part of the noise phd f: yeah . professor a: so um that 's something that is sort of finer , phd f: yeah . professor a: brings in a little more information than just spectral subtraction . um . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and he had some i mean , he did that sort of in combination with rasta . it was kind of like rasta was taking care of convolutional stuff phd f: mmm . professor a: and he was phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and and got some some decent results doing that . so that that 's another another way . but yeah , there 's there 's phd f: yeah . mmm . professor a: right . there 's all these cues . we 've actually back when chuck was here we did some voiced - unvoiced uh classification using a bunch of these , phd f: but professor a: and and uh works ok . obviously it 's not perfect but um phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: but the thing is that you ca n't given the constraints of this task , we ca n't , in a very nice way , feed forward to the recognizer the information the probabilistic information that you might get about whether it 's voiced or unvoiced , where w we ca n't you know affect the the uh distributions or anything . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: but we what we uh i guess we could yeah . phd b: did n't the head dude send around that message ? yeah , i think you sent us all a copy of the message , where he was saying that i i 'm not sure , exactly , what the gist of what he was saying , but something having to do with the voice activity detector and that it will that people should n't put their own in or something . it was gon na be a professor a: that but ok . so that 's voice activity detector as opposed to voicing detector . phd f: they did n't . professor a: so we 're talking about something a little different . phd f: mmm . phd b: oh , i 'm sorry . professor a: right ? phd b: i i missed that . phd f: mmm . professor a: i guess what you could do , maybe this would be w useful , if if you have if you view the second stream , yeah , before you before you do klt 's and so forth , if you do view it as probabilities , and if it 's an independent so , if it 's if it 's uh not so much envelope - based by fine - structure - based , uh looking at harmonicity or something like that , um if you get a probability from that information and then multiply it by you know , multiply by all the voiced outputs and all the unvoiced outputs , you know , then use that as the phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: uh take the log of that or uh pre pre uh pre - nonlinearity , phd f: yeah . i if professor a: uh and do the klt on the on on that , phd f: yeah . professor a: then that would that would i guess be uh a reasonable use of independent information . so maybe that 's what you meant . and then that would be phd f: yeah , well , i was not thinking this yeah , this could be an yeah so you mean have some kind of probability for the v the voicing professor a: r right . so you have a second neural net . phd f: and then use a tandem system professor a: it could be pretty small . yeah . if you have a tandem system and then you have some kind of it can be pretty small net phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: we used we d did some of this stuff . uh i i did , some years ago , phd f: yeah . professor a: and the and and you use the thing is to use information primarily that 's different as you say , it 's more fine - structure - based than than envelope - based phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: uh so then it you you you can pretty much guarantee it 's stuff that you 're not looking at very well with the other one , and uh then you only use for this one distinction . phd f: alright . professor a: and and so now you 've got a probability of the cases , and you 've got uh the probability of the finer uh categories on the other side . you multiply them where appropriate and uh um phd f: i see , yeah . mm - hmm . professor a: if they really are from independent information sources then they should have different kinds of errors phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and roughly independent errors , and it 's a good choice for phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . yeah . professor a: uh . yeah , that 's a good idea . phd f: yeah . because , yeah , well , spectral subtraction is good and we could u we could use the fine structure to to have a better estimate of the noise but still there is this issue with spectral subtraction that it seems to increase the variance of of of professor a: yeah . phd f: um well it 's this musical noise which is annoying if you d you do some kind of on - line normalization after . professor a: right . phd f: so . um . yeah . well . spectral subtraction and on - line normalization do n't seem to to go together very well . i professor a: or if you do a spectral subtraction do some spectral subtraction first and then do some on - line normalization then do some more spectral subtraction i mean , maybe maybe you can do it layers or something so it does n't does n't hurt too much or something . phd f: ah , yeah . professor a: but it but uh , anyway i think i was sort of arguing against myself there by giving that example phd f: yeah . professor a: uh i mean cuz i was already sort of suggesting that we should be careful about not spending too much time on exactly what they 're doing in fact if you get if you go into uh a uh harmonics - related thing it 's definitely going to be different than what they 're doing and uh uh phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: should have some interesting properties in noise . um . i know that when have people have done um sort of the obvious thing of taking uh your feature vector and adding in some variables which are pitch related or uh that it has n't my impression it has n't particularly helped . uh . has not . phd f: it it i has not , professor a: yeah . phd f: yeah . professor a: but i think uh that 's that 's a question for this uh you know extending the feature vector versus having different streams . phd f: oh . was it nois noisy condition ? the example that you you just professor a: and and it may not have been noisy conditions . phd f: yeah . professor a: yeah . i i do n't remember the example but it was it was on some darpa data and some years ago and so it probably was n't , actually phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . yeah . but we were thinking , we discussed with barry about this , and perhaps thinking we were thinking about some kind of sheet cheating experiment where we would use timit professor a: uh - huh . phd f: and see if giving the d uh , this voicing bit would help in in terms of uh frame classification . professor a: why do n't you why do n't you just do it with aurora ? phd f: mmm . professor a: just any i in in each in each frame phd f: yeah , but but b but we can not do the cheating , this cheating thing . grad e: we 're professor a: uh grad e: we need labels . professor a: why not ? phd f: well . cuz we do n't have well , for italian perhaps we have , but we do n't have this labeling for aurora . we just have a labeling with word models professor a: i see . phd f: but not for phonemes . phd d: not for foreigners . grad e: we do n't have frame frame level transcriptions . professor a: um . phd d: right . phd f: um . yeah . professor a: but you could i mean you can you can align so that it 's not perfect , but if you if you know what was said and phd b: but the problem is that their models are all word level models . so there 's no phone models that you get alignments for . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: oh . phd b: you so you could find out where the word boundaries are but that 's about it . professor a: yeah . i see . grad e: s but we could use uh the the noisy version that timit , which you know , is similar to the the noises found in the ti - digits um portion of aurora . phd f: yeah . noise , yeah . yeah , that 's right , yep . mmm . professor a: yeah . phd f: well , i guess i guess we can we can say that it will help , but i do n't know . if this voicing bit does n't help , uh , i think we do n't have to to work more about this because professor a: uh . phd f: uh . it 's just to know if it how much i it will help professor a: yeah . phd f: and to have an idea of how much we can gain . professor a: right . i mean in experiments that we did a long time ago phd f: mmm . professor a: and different ta it was probably resource management or something , um , i think you were getting something like still eight or nine percent error on the voicing , as i recall . and um , so um grad e: another person 's voice . professor a: what that said is that , sort of , left to its own devices , like without the a strong language model and so forth , that you would you would make significant number of errors just with your uh probabilistic machinery in deciding phd b: it also professor a: one oh phd b: yeah , the though i think uh there was one problem with that in that , you know , we used canonical mapping so our truth may not have really been true to the acoustics . professor a: uh - huh . grad e: hmm . phd b: so . phd f: mmm . professor a: yeah . well back twenty years ago when i did this voiced - unvoiced stuff , we were getting more like ninety - seven or ninety - eight percent correct in voicing . but that was speaker - dependent actually . we were doing training on a particular announcer phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and and getting a very good handle on the features . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and we did this complex feature selection thing where we looked at all the different possible features one could have for voicing and and and uh and exhaustively searched all size subsets and and uh for for that particular speaker and you 'd find you know the five or six features which really did well on them . phd b: wow ! phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and then doing doing all of that we could get down to two or three percent error . but that , again , was speaker - dependent with lots of feature selection phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and a very complex sort of thing . phd f: mmm . professor a: so i would i would believe that uh it was quite likely that um looking at envelope only , that we 'd be significantly worse than that . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: uh . phd f: and the all the the speechcorders ? what 's the idea behind ? cuz they they have to oh , they do n't even have to detect voiced spe speech ? professor a: the modern ones do n't do a a simple switch . phd f: they just work on the code book professor a: they work on the code book excitation . phd f: and find out the best excitation . professor a: yeah they do analysis - by - synthesis . they try they they try every every possible excitation they have in their code book and find the one that matches best . phd f: yeah . mmm . alright . yeah . so it would not help . professor a: yeah . grad e: hmm . professor a: uh . o k . phd b: can i just mention one other interesting thing ? professor a: yeah . phd b: um . one of the ideas that we had come up with last week for things to try to improve the system um . actually i i s we did n't i guess i wrote this in after the meeting b but the thought i had was um looking at the language model that 's used in the htk recognizer , which is basically just a big loop , grad e: mm - hmm . phd b: right ? so you it goes `` digit `` phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: and then that can be either go to silence or go to another digit , which that model would allow for the production of infinitely long sequences of digits , right ? professor a: right . phd b: so . i thought `` well i 'm gon na just look at the what actual digit strings do occur in the training data . `` professor a: right . phd b: and the interesting thing was it turns out that there are no sequences of two - long or three - long digit strings in any of the aurora training data . so it 's either one , four , five , six , uh up to eleven , and then it skips and then there 's some at sixteen . professor a: but what about the testing data ? phd b: um . i do n't know . i did n't look at the test data yet . professor a: yeah . i mean if there 's some testing data that has has has two or three phd b: so . yeah . but i just thought that was a little odd , that there were no two or three long sorry . so i i just for the heck of it , i made a little grammar which um , you know , had it 's separate path for each length digit string you could get . so there was a one - long path and there was a four - long and a five - long professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: and i tried that and it got way worse . there were lots of deletions . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: so it was you know , i i did n't have any weights of these paths or i did n't have anything like that . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: and i played with tweaking the word transition penalties a bunch , but i could n't go anywhere . professor a: hmm . phd b: but um . i thought `` well if i only allow `` yeah , i guess i should have looked at to see how often there was a mistake where a two - long or a three - long path was actually put out as a hypothesis . um . but . professor a: hmm . phd b: so to do that right you 'd probably want to have allow for them all but then have weightings and things . so . i just thought that was a interesting thing about the data . professor a: ok . so we 're gon na read some more digit strings i guess ? phd b: yeah . you want to go ahead , morgan ? professor a: sure .

the professor informed the team that noise was affecting their recordings but dan had assured him that the quantization effect was not significant . he thought that the team should update their web page to better reflect their understanding of the topic .

what did phd b think about patterns of noise in the recordings ? </s> phd b: ok . we 're on . grad e: hello ? professor a: ok , so uh had some interesting mail from uh dan ellis . actually , i think he he redirected it to everybody also so uh the pda mikes uh have a big bunch of energy at at uh five hertz uh where this came up was that uh i was showing off these wave forms that we have on the web and and uh i just sort of had n't noticed this , but that the major , major component in the wave in the second wave form in that pair of wave forms is actually the air conditioner . grad c: huh . professor a: so . so . i i have to be more careful about using that as a as a as a good illustration , uh , in fact it 's not , of uh of the effects of room reverberation . it is is n't a bad illustration of the effects of uh room noise . on on uh some mikes uh but so . and then we had this other discussion about um whether this affects the dynamic range , cuz i know , although we start off with thirty two bits , you end up with uh sixteen bits and you know , are we getting hurt there ? but uh dan is pretty confident that we 're not , that that quantization error is not is still not a significant factor there . so . so there was a question of whether we should change things here , whether we should change a capacitor on the input box for that or whether we should phd b: yeah , he suggested a smaller capacitor , right ? professor a: right . but then i had some other uh thing discussions with him phd b: for the p d professor a: and the feeling was once we start monk monkeying with that , uh , many other problems could ha happen . and additionally we we already have a lot of data that 's been collected with that , so . phd b: yeah . professor a: a simple thing to do is he he he has a i forget if it this was in that mail or in the following mail , but he has a a simple filter , a digital filter that he suggested . we just run over the data before we deal with it . phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: um the other thing that i do n't know the answer to , but when people are using feacalc here , uh whether they 're using it with the high - pass filter option or not . and i do n't know if anybody knows . grad e: um . i could go check . professor a: but . yeah . so when we 're doing all these things using our software there is um if it 's if it 's based on the rasta - plp program , which does both plp and rasta - plp um then uh there is an option there which then comes up through to feacalc which um allows you to do high - pass filtering and in general we like to do that , because of things like this and it 's it 's pretty it 's not a very severe filter . does n't affect speech frequencies , even pretty low speech frequencies , at all , but it 's phd b: what 's the cut - off frequency it used ? professor a: oh . i do n't know i wrote this a while ago phd b: is it like twenty ? professor a: something like that . phd b: yeah . professor a: yeah . i mean i think there 's some effect above twenty but it 's it 's it 's it 's mild . so , i mean it probably there 's probably some effect up to a hundred hertz or something but it 's it 's pretty mild . i do n't know in the in the strut implementation of the stuff is there a high - pass filter or a pre pre - emphasis or something in the phd f: uh . i think we use a pre - emphasis . yeah . yeah . professor a: so . we we we want to go and check that in i for anything that we 're going to use the p d a mike for . uh he says that there 's a pretty good roll off in the pzm mikes so we do n't need need to worry about them one way or the other but if we do make use of the cheap mikes , uh we want to be sure to do that that filtering before we process it . and then again if it 's uh depending on the option that the our our software is being run with , it 's it 's quite possible that 's already being taken care of . uh but i also have to pick a different picture to show the effects of reverberation . uh phd b: did somebody notice it during your talk ? professor a: uh no . phd b: huh . professor a: well . uh well . if they made output they were they were , you know they were nice . phd b: did n't say anything ? professor a: but . i mean the thing is it was since i was talking about reverberation and showing this thing that was noise , it was n't a good match , but it certainly was still uh an indication of the fact that you get noise with distant mikes . uh it 's just not a great example because not only is n't it reverberation but it 's a noise that we definitely know what to do . phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: so , i mean , it does n't take deep a new bold new methods to get rid of uh five hertz noise , so . phd b: yeah . professor a: um uh but . so it was it was a bad example in that way , but it 's it still is it 's the real thing that we did get out of the microphone at distance , so it was n't it w it w was n't wrong it was inappropriate . so . so uh , but uh , yeah , someone noticed it later pointed it out to me , and i went `` oh , man . why did n't i notice that ? `` phd b: hmm . professor a: um . so . um so i think we 'll change our our picture on the web , when we 're @ @ . one of the things i was i mean , i was trying to think about what what 's the best way to show the difference an and i had a couple of thoughts one was , that spectrogram that we show is o k , but the thing is the eyes uh and the the brain behind them are so good at picking out patterns from from noise that in first glance you look at them it does n't seem like it 's that bad uh because there 's many features that are still preserved . so one thing to do might be to just take a piece of the spec uh of the spectrogram where you can see that something looks different , an and blow it up , and have that be the part that 's just to show as well . you know . phd b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor a: i i some things are going to be hurt . um another , i was thinking of was um taking some spectral slices , like uh like we look at with the recognizer , and look at the spectrum or cepstrum that you get out of there , and the the uh , um , the reverberation uh does make it does change that . and so maybe maybe that would be more obvious . phd b: hmm . grad c: spectral slices ? professor a: yeah . grad c: w w what d what do you mean ? professor a: well , i mean um all the recognizers look at frames . so they they look at phd b: so like one instant in time . professor a: yeah , look at a grad c: ok . professor a: so it 's , yeah , at one point in time or uh twenty over twenty milliseconds or something , you have a spectrum or a cepstrum . grad c: ok . professor a: that 's what i meant by a slice . grad c: i see . professor a: yeah . and if you look at phd b: you could just you could just throw up , you know , uh the uh some mfcc feature vectors . you know , one from one , one from the other , and then , you know , you can look and see how different the numbers are . professor a: right . well , that 's why i saying either well , either spectrum or cepstrum phd b: i 'm just kidding . professor a: but but i think the thing is you wan na phd b: i do n't mean a graph . i mean the actual numbers . professor a: oh . i see . oh . that would be lovely , yeah . phd b: yeah . `` see how different these sequences of numbers are ? `` professor a: yeah . or i could just add them up and get a different total . phd b: yeah . it 's not the square . professor a: ok . uh . what else wh what 's what else is going on ? phd f: uh , yeah . yeah , at first i had a remark why i am wondering why the pda is always so far . i mean we are always meeting at the beginning of the table and the pda 's there . professor a: uh . i guess cuz we have n't wanted to move it . we we could we could move us , phd f: yeah ? professor a: and . phd f: ok . grad e: that 's right . phd f: well , anyway . um . yeah , so . uh . since the last meeting we 've we 've tried to put together um the clean low - pass um downsampling , upsampling , i mean , uh the new filter that 's replacing the lda filters , and also the um delay issue so that we considered th the the delay issue on the for the on - line normalization . mmm . so we 've put together all this and then we have results that are not um very impressive . well , there is no real improvement . professor a: but it 's not wer worse and it 's better better latency , phd f: it 's not professor a: right ? phd f: yeah . yeah . well . actually it 's better . it seems better when we look at the mismatched case but i think we are like like cheated here by the th this problem that uh in some cases when you modify slight slightly modify the initial condition you end up completely somewhere air somewhere else in the in the space , the parameters . professor a: yeah . phd f: so . well . the other system are for instance . for italian is at seventy - eight percent recognition rate on the mismatch , and this new system has eighty - nine . but i do n't think it indicates something , really . i do n't i do n't think it means that the new system is more robust professor a: uh - huh . phd f: or it 's simply the fact that well . professor a: well , the test would be if you then tried it on one of the other test sets , if if it was phd f: y professor a: right . so this was italian , right ? phd f: yeah . yeah . professor a: so then if you take your changes phd f: it 's similar for other test sets professor a: and then phd f: but i mean from this se seventy - eight um percent recognition rate system , i could change the transition probabilities for the the first hmm and it will end up to eighty - nine also . professor a: uh - huh . phd f: by using point five instead of point six , point four as in the the htk script . professor a: uh - huh . yeah . phd f: so . well . that 's phd b: yeah . yeah i looked at um looked at the results when stephane did that phd f: well . eh uh phd b: and it 's it 's really wo really happens . phd f: this really happens . phd b: i mean th the only difference is you change the self - loop transition probability by a tenth of a percent phd f: yeah . professor a: yeah . phd b: and it causes ten percent difference in the word error rate . professor a: a tenth of a per cent . phd b: yeah . from point phd f: even tenth of a percent ? phd b: i i 'm sorry phd f: well , we tried we tried point one , phd b: f for point from you change at point one phd f: yeah . professor a: oh ! phd b: and n not tenth of a percent , one tenth , phd f: hmm . professor a: yeah . phd b: alright ? um so from point five so from point six to point five and you get ten percent better . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: and it 's i think it 's what you basically hypothesized in the last meeting about uh it just being very phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: and i think you mentioned this in your email too it 's just very um phd f: mmm , yeah . phd b: you know get stuck in some local minimum and this thing throws you out of it i guess . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: well , what 's what are according to the rules what what are we supposed to do about the transition probabilities ? are they supposed to be point five or point six ? phd b: i think you 're not allowed to yeah . that 's supposed to be point six , for the self - loop . phd f: yeah . professor a: point it 's supposed to be point six . phd b: yeah . but changing it to point five i think is which gives you much better results , but that 's not allowed . professor a: but not allowed ? yeah . ok . phd b: yeah . phd f: yeah , but even if you use point five , i 'm not sure it will always give you the better results phd b: yeah . phd f: on other test set or it phd b: right . we only tested it on the the medium mismatch , phd f: on the other training set , i mean . phd b: right ? you said on the other cases you did n't notice phd f: yeah . but . i think , yeah . i think the reason is , yeah , i not i it was in my mail i think also , is the fact that the mismatch is trained only on the far microphone . well , in for the mismatched case everything is um using the far microphone training and testing , whereas for the highly mismatched , training is done on the close microphone so it 's it 's clean speech basically so you do n't have this problem of local minima probably and for the well - match , it 's a mix of close microphone and distant microphone and well . phd b: i did notice uh something phd f: so th i think the mismatch is the more difficult for the training part . phd b: somebody , i think it was morgan , suggested at the last meeting that i actually count to see how many parameters and how many frames . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: and there are uh almost one point eight million frames of training data and less than forty thousand parameters in the baseline system . professor a: hmm . phd f: yeah . phd b: so it 's very , very few parameters compared to how much training data . professor a: well . yes . phd d: mm - hmm . professor a: so . and that that says that we could have lots more parameters actually . phd b: yeah . yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: i did one quick experiment just to make sure i had everything worked out and i just uh f for most of the um for for all of the digit models , they end up at three mixtures per state . and so i just did a quick experiment , where i changed it so it went to four and um it it it did n't have a r any significant effect at the uh medium mismatch and high mismatch cases and it had it was just barely significant for the well - matched better . uh so i 'm r gon na run that again but um with many more uh mixtures per state . professor a: yeah . cuz at forty thou i mean you could you could have uh yeah , easily four times as many parameters . phd b: mm - hmm . and i think also just seeing what we saw uh in terms of the expected duration of the silence model ? when we did this tweaking of the self - loop ? the silence model expected duration was really different . phd f: yeah . phd b: and so in the case where um it had a better score , the silence model expected duration was much longer . phd f: yeah . phd b: so it was like it was a better match . i think you know if we make a better silence model i think that will help a lot too um for a lot of these cases so but one one thing i i wanted to check out before i increased the um number of mixtures per state was uh in their default training script they do an initial set of three re - estimations and then they built the silence model and then they do seven iterations then the add mixtures and they do another seven then they add mixtures then they do a final set of seven and they quit . seven seems like a lot to me and it also makes the experiments go take a really long time i mean to do one turn - around of the well matched case takes like a day . professor a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd b: and so you know in trying to run these experiments i notice , you know , it 's difficult to find machines , you know , compute the run on . and so one of the things i did was i compiled htk for the linux machines professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: cuz we have this one from ibm that 's got like five processors in it ? professor a: right . phd b: and so now i 'm you can run stuff on that and that really helps a lot because now we 've got you know , extra machines that we can use for compute . and if i 'm do running an experiment right now where i 'm changing the number of iterations ? from seven to three ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor a: yeah . phd b: just to see how it affects the baseline system . and so if we can get away with just doing three , we can do many more experiments more quickly . and if it 's not a a huge difference from running with seven iterations , um , you know , we should be able to get a lot more experiments done . phd f: hmm . phd b: and so . i 'll let you know what what happens with that . but if we can you know , run all of these back - ends f with many fewer iterations and on linux boxes we should be able to get a lot more experimenting done . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: so . so i wanted to experiment with cutting down the number of iterations before i increased the number of gaussians . professor a: right . sorry . so um , how 's it going on the phd f: um . professor a: so . you you did some things . they did n't improve things in a way that convinced you you 'd substantially improved anything . phd f: yeah . professor a: but they 're not making things worse and we have reduced latency , right ? phd f: yeah . but actually um actually it seems to do a little bit worse for the well - matched case and we just noticed that yeah , actually the way the final score is computed is quite funny . it 's not a mean of word error rate . it 's not a weighted mean of word error rate , it 's a weighted mean of improvements . professor a: uh - huh . phd f: so . which means that actually the weight on the well - matched is well i well what what what happened is that if you have a small improvement or a small if on the well - matched case it will have uh huge influence on the improvement compared to the reference because the reference system is is is quite good for for the well - ma well - matched case also . phd b: so it it weights the improvement on the well - matched case really heavily compared to the improvement on the other cases ? phd f: no , but it 's the weighting of the of the improvement not of the error rate . phd b: yeah . yeah , and it 's hard to improve on the on the best case , cuz it 's already so good , right ? phd f: yeah but what i mean is that you can have a huge improvement on the h hmk 's , uh like five percent uh absolute , and this will not affect the final score almost uh this will almost not affect the final score because this improvement because the improvement uh relative to the the baseline is small professor a: so they do improvement in terms of uh accuracy ? rather than word error rate ? phd f: uh . uh improvement ? professor a: so phd f: no , it 's compared to the word er it 's improvement on the word error rate , professor a: ok . phd f: yeah . sorry . professor a: so if you have uh ten percent error and you get five percent absolute uh improvement then that 's fifty percent . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: ok . so what you 're saying then is that if it 's something that has a small word error rate , then uh a even a relatively small improvement on it , in absolute terms , will show up as quite quite large in this . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: is that what you 're saying ? phd f: yeah . professor a: yes . phd f: yeah . professor a: ok . but yeah that 's that 's it 's the notion of relative improvement . word error rate . phd f: yeah . sure , but when we think about the weighting , which is point five , point three , point two , it 's on absolute on on relative figures , professor a: yeah . phd f: not professor a: yeah . phd f: so when we look at this error rate professor a: no . that 's why i 've been saying we should be looking at word error rate uh and and not not at at accuracies . phd f: uh mmm , yeah . mmm , yeah . professor a: it 's phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: i mean uh we probably should have standardized on that all the way through . it 's just phd b: well . phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean , it 's not it 's not that different , right ? i mean , just subtract the accuracy . professor a: yeah but you 're but when you look at the numbers , your sense of the relative size of things is quite different . phd b: i mean oh . oh , i see . yeah . professor a: if you had ninety percent uh correct and five percent , five over ninety does n't look like it 's a big difference , but five over ten is is big . phd b: mm - hmm . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: so just when we were looking at a lot of numbers and getting sense of what was important . phd b: i see . i see . yeah . that makes sense . professor a: um . phd f: mmm . professor a: um . phd f: well anyway uh . so . yeah . so it hurts a little bit on the well - match and yeah . professor a: what 's a little bit ? like phd f: like , it 's difficult to say because again um i 'm not sure i have the um phd b: hey morgan ? do you remember that signif program that we used to use for testing signi ? is that still valid ? i i 've been using that . professor a: yeah . yeah , it was actually updated . phd b: ok . professor a: uh . jeff updated it some years ago phd b: oh , it was . oh , i shoul professor a: and and uh cleaned it up made some things better in it . so . phd b: ok . i should find that new one . i just use my old one from ninety - two or whatever professor a: yeah , i 'm sure it 's not that different but but he he uh he was a little more rigorous , as i recall . phd b: ok . phd f: right . so it 's around , like , point five . no , point six { comment } uh percent absolute on italian professor a: worse . phd f: worse , yep . professor a: out of what ? i mean . s phd f: uh well we start from ninety - four point sixty - four , and we go to ninety - four point o four . professor a: uh - huh . so that 's six six point th phd f: uh . phd b: ninety - three point six four , right ? is the baseline . phd f: oh , no , i 've ninety - four . oh , the baseline , you mean . phd b: yeah . phd f: well i do n't i 'm not talking about the baseline here . phd b: oh . oh . i 'm sorry . phd f: i uh my baseline is the submitted system . phd b: ah ! ok . ah , ah . phd f: hmm . professor a: yeah . phd b: sorry . phd f: oh yeah . for finnish , we start to ninety - three point eight - four and we go to ninety - three point seventy - four . and for spanish we are we were at ninety - five point o five and we go to ninety - three - s point sixty one . professor a: ok , so we are getting hurt somewhat . phd f: so . professor a: and is that wh what do you know what piece you 've done several changes here . uh , do you know what pie phd f: yeah . i guess i guess it 's it 's the filter . because nnn , well uh we do n't have complete result , but the filter so the filter with the shorter delay hurts on italian well - matched , which and , yeah . and the other things , like um downsampling , upsampling , do n't seem to hurt and the new on - line normalization , neither . phd b: i 'm phd f: so . phd b: i 'm really confused about something . if we saw that making a small change like , you know , a tenth , to the self - loop had a huge effect , can we really make any conclusions about differences in this stuff ? phd f: mm - hmm . yeah that 's th yeah . phd b: i mean , especially when they 're this small . i mean . phd f: i think we can be completely fooled by this thing , but i do n't know . professor a: well , yeah . phd f: so . there is first this thing , and then the yeah , i computed the um like , the confidence level on the different test sets . and for the well - matched they are around um point six uh percent . for the mismatched they are around like let 's say one point five percent . and for the well - m uh hm they are also around one point five . professor a: but ok , so you these these degradations you were talking about were on the well - matched case phd f: so . professor a: uh . do the does the new filter make things uh better or worse for the other cases ? phd f: yeah . but . uh . about the same . it does n't hurt . yeah . professor a: does n't hurt , but does n't get a little better , or something . phd f: no . professor a: no . ok , so um i guess the argument one might make is that , `` yeah , if you looked at one of these cases and you jiggle something and it changes then uh you 're not quite sure what to make of it . but when you look across a bunch of these and there 's some some pattern , um i mean , so eh h here 's all the if if in all these different cases it never gets better , and there 's significant number of cases where it gets worse , then you 're probably hurting things , i would say . so um i mean at the very least that would be a reasonably prediction of what would happen with with a different test set , that you 're not jiggling things with . so i guess the question is if you can do better than this . if you can if we can approximate the old numbers while still keeping the latency down . phd f: mmm . yeah . professor a: uh , so . um . what i was asking , though , is uh are what 's what 's the level of communication with uh the o g i gang now , about this and phd f: well , we are exchanging mail as soon as we we have significant results . professor a: yeah . phd f: um . yeah . for the moment , they are working on integrating the um spectral subtraction apparently from ericsson . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: um . yeah . and so . yeah . we are working on our side on other things like uh also trying a sup spectral subtraction but of of our own , i mean , another spectral substraction . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: um . yeah . so i think it 's it 's ok . it 's going professor a: is there any further discussion about this this idea of of having some sort of source code control ? phd f: yeah . well . for the moment they 're uh everybody 's quite um there is this eurospeech deadline , so . professor a: i see . phd f: um . and . yeah . but yeah . as soon as we have something that 's significant and that 's better than than what was submitted , we will fix fix the system and but we 've not discussed it it it this yet , yeah . professor a: yeah . sounds like a great idea but but i think that that um he 's saying people are sort of scrambling for a eurospeech deadline . phd f: mmm . professor a: but that 'll be uh , uh done in a week . so , maybe after this next one . phd f: yeah . phd b: wow ! already a week ! man ! professor a: yeah . phd b: you 're right . that 's amazing . professor a: yeah . anybo - anybody in the in this group do doing anything for eurospeech ? phd f: s professor a: or , is that what is that phd f: yeah we are we are trying to to do something with the meeting recorder digits , professor a: right . phd f: and but yeah . yeah . and the good thing is that there is this first deadline , professor a: yeah . phd f: and , well , some people from ogi are working on a paper for this , but there is also the um special session about th aurora which is uh which has an extended deadline . so . the deadline is in may . professor a: for uh oh , for eurospeech ? phd f: for th yeah . professor a: oh ! phd f: so f only for the experiments on aurora . so it it 's good , professor a: oh , a special dispensation . phd f: yeah . professor a: that 's great . phd b: mm - hmm . where is eurospeech this year ? phd f: it 's in denmark . professor a: aalborg aalborg uh phd b: oh . professor a: so the deadline when 's the deadline ? when 's the deadline ? phd f: hmm ? i think it 's the thirteenth of may . professor a: that 's great ! it 's great . so we should definitely get something in for that . phd f: yeah . professor a: but on meeting digits , maybe there 's maybe . phd f: yeah . professor a: maybe . phd f: so it would be for the first deadline . professor a: yeah . phd f: nnn . professor a: yeah . so , i mean , i i think that you could certainly start looking at at the issue uh but but uh i think it 's probably , on s from what stephane is saying , it 's it 's unlikely to get sort of active participation from the two sides until after they 've phd b: well i could at least well , i 'm going to be out next week but i could try to look into like this uh cvs over the web . that seems to be a very popular way of people distributing changes and over , you know , multiple sites and things professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: so maybe if i can figure out how do that easily and then pass the information on to everybody so that it 's you know , as easy to do as possible and and people do n't it wo n't interfere with { comment } their regular work , then maybe that would be good . and i think we could use it for other things around here too . so . professor a: good . grad c: that 's cool . and if you 're interested in using cvs , i 've set it up here , phd b: oh great . grad c: so . phd b: ok . grad c: um j phd b: i used it a long time ago but it 's been a while so maybe i can ask you some questions . grad c: oh . so . i 'll be away tomorrow and monday but i 'll be back on tuesday or wednesday . phd b: ok . professor a: yeah . dave , the other thing , actually , is is this business about this wave form . maybe you and i can talk a little bit at some point about coming up with a better uh demonstration of the effects of reverberation for our web page , cuz uh the uh um i mean , actually the the uh it made a good good audio demonstration because when we could play that clip the the the really obvious difference is that you can hear two voices and in the second one and only hear phd b: maybe we could just like , talk into a cup . professor a: yeah . phd b: some good reverb . professor a: no , i mean , it sound it sounds pretty reverberant , but i mean you ca n't when you play it back in a room with a you know a big room , nobody can hear that difference really . grad c: yeah . professor a: they hear that it 's lower amplitude and they hear there 's a second voice , grad c: uh - huh . professor a: um but uh that actually that makes for a perfectly good demo because that 's a real obvious thing , that you hear two voices . phd b: but not of reverberation . professor a: yeah . grad c: a boom . professor a: well that that that 's ok . but for the the visual , just , you know , i 'd like to have uh uh , you know , the spectrogram again , grad c: yeah . professor a: because you 're you 're you 're visual uh abilities as a human being are so good you can pick out you know , you you look at the good one , you look at the cru the screwed up one , and and you can see the features in it without trying to @ @ phd b: i noticed that in the pictures . professor a: yeah . phd b: i thought `` hey , you know th `` i my initial thought was `` this is not too bad ! `` professor a: right . but you have to you know , if you look at it closely , you see `` well , here 's a place where this one has a big formant uh uh formant maj major formants here are are moving quite a bit . `` and then you look in the other one and they look practically flat . phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: so i mean you could that 's why i was thinking , in a section like that , you could take a look look at just that part of the spectrogram and you could say `` oh yeah . this this really distorted it quite a bit . `` phd b: yeah . the main thing that struck me in looking at those two spectrograms was the difference in the high frequencies . it looked like for the one that was farther away , you know , it really everything was attenuated professor a: right . phd b: and i mean that was the main visual thing that i noticed . professor a: right . but it 's it 's uh so . yeah . so there are clearly are spectral effects . since you 're getting all this indirect energy , then a lot of it does have have uh reduced high frequencies . but um the other thing is the temporal courses of things really are changed , and and uh we want to show that , in some obvious way . the reason i put the wave forms in there was because uh they they do look quite different . uh . and so i thought `` oh , this is good . `` but i i just uh after after uh they were put in there i did n't really look at them anymore , cuz i just they were different . so i want something that has a is a more interesting explanation for why they 're different . um . grad c: oh . so maybe we can just substitute one of these wave forms and um then do some kind of zoom in on the spectrogram on an interesting area . professor a: something like that . yeah . grad c: uh - huh . professor a: the other thing that we had in there that i did n't like was that um the most obvious characteristic of the difference uh when you listen to it is that there 's a second voice , and the the the the the uh cuts that we have there actually do n't correspond to the full wave form . it 's just the first i think there was something where he was having some trouble getting so much in , or . i i forget the reason behind it . but it it 's um it 's the first six seconds or something of it and it 's in the seventh or eighth second or something where @ @ the second voice comes in . so we we would like to actually see the voice coming in , too , i think , since that 's the most obvious thing when you listen to it . grad c: mm - hmm . professor a: so . um . phd f: uh , yeah . yeah . i brought some i do n't know if some figures here . well . i start we started to work on spectral subtraction . and um the preliminary results were very bad . professor a: uh - huh . phd f: so the thing that we did is just to add spectral subtraction before this , the wall uh process , which contains lda on - line normalization . and it hurts uh a lot . professor a: uh - huh . phd f: and so we started to look at at um things like this , which is , well , it 's yeah . so you have the c - zero parameters for one uh italian utterance . phd d: you can @ @ . phd f: and i plotted this for two channels . channel zero is the close mic microphone , and channel one is the distant microphone . and it 's perfectly synchronized , so . and the sentence contain only one word , which is `` due `` and it ca n't clearly be seen . where where is it ? professor a: uh - huh . phd f: where is the word ? phd b: this is this is , grad e: hmm . phd b: oh , a plot of c - zero , phd f: so . phd b: the energy . phd f: this is a plot of c - zero , uh when we do n't use spectral substraction , and when there is no on - line normalization . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: so . there is just some filtering with the lda and and some downsampling , upsampling . phd b: c - zero is the close talking ? phd f: so . phd b: uh the close channel ? phd f: yeah . yeah . phd b: and s channel one is the phd f: yeah . so c - zero is very clean , actually . phd b: yeah . phd f: uh then when we apply mean normalization it looks like the second figure , though it is not . which is good . well , the noise part is around zero professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: and and then the third figure is what happens when we apply mean normalization and variance normalization . so . what we can clearly see is that on the speech portion the two channel come becomes very close , but also what happens on the noisy portion is that the variance of the noise is professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: this is still being a plot of c - zero ? ok . phd f: yeah . this is still c - zero . phd b: can i ask um what does variance normalization do ? w what is the effect of that ? professor a: normalizes the variance . phd f: so it it yeah . phd b: i mean phd f: it normalized th the standard deviation . phd b: y yeah . phd f: so it phd b: no , i understand that , phd f: you you get an estimate of the standard deviation . phd b: but i mean phd f: that 's phd b: no . phd f: um phd b: no , i understand what it is , but i mean , what does it what 's what is phd f: yeah but . phd b: uh professor a: what 's the rationale ? phd b: we yeah . yeah . why why do it ? phd f: uh . professor a: well , i mean , because everything uh if you have a system based on gaussians , everything is based on means and variances . phd b: yeah . professor a: so if there 's an overall reason you know , it 's like uh if you were doing uh image processing and in some of the pictures you were looking at , uh there was a lot of light uh and and in some , there was low light , phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: you know , you would want to adjust for that in order to compare things . phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: and the variance is just sort of like the next moment , you know ? so uh what if um one set of pictures was taken uh so that throughout the course it was went through daylight and night uh um um ten times , another time it went thr i mean i is , you know , how how much how much vari phd b: oh , ok . professor a: or no . i guess a better example would be how much of the light was coming in from outside rather than artificial light . so if it was a lot if more was coming from outside , then there 'd be the bigger effect of the of the of the change in the so every mean every all all of the the parameters that you have , especially the variances , are going to be affected by the overall variance . phd b: oh , ok . uh - huh . professor a: and so , in principle , you if you remove that source , then , you know , you can phd b: i see . ok . so would the major effect is that you 're gon na get is by normalizing the means , professor a: that 's the first order but thing , phd b: but it may help first - order effects . professor a: but then the second order is is the variances phd b: and it may help to do the variance . ok . professor a: because , again , if you if you 're trying to distinguish between e and b phd b: ok . professor a: if it just so happens that the e 's were a more you know , were recorded when when the energy was was was larger or something , phd b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor a: or the variation in it was larger , uh than with the b 's , then this will be give you some some bias . phd b: professor a: so the it 's removing these sources of variability in the data that have nothing to do with the linguistic component . phd b: ok . phd f: mmm . phd b: gotcha . ok . sorry to interrupt . professor a: but the the uh but let me as ask ask you something . phd f: yep . and it and this professor a: i is if if you have a good voice activity detector , is n't is n't it gon na pull that out ? phd f: yeah . sure . if they are good . yeah . well what it it shows is that , yeah , perhaps a good voice activity detector is is good before on - line normalization and that 's what uh we 've already observed . but uh , yeah , voice activity detection is not an easy thing neither . phd b: but after you do this , after you do the variance normalization i mean . phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: i do n't know , it seems like this would be a lot easier than this signal to work with . phd f: yeah . so . what i notice is that , while i prefer to look at the second figure than at the third one , well , because you clearly see where speech is . professor a: yeah . phd b: yeah . phd f: but the problem is that on the speech portion , channel zero and channel one are more different than when you use variance normalization where channel zero and channel one become closer . professor a: right . phd b: but for the purposes of finding the speech phd f: and yeah , but here phd b: you 're more interested in the difference between the speech and the nonspeech , phd f: yeah . phd b: right ? phd f: yeah . so i think , yeah . for i th i think that it perhaps it shows that uh the parameters that the voice activity detector should use uh have to use should be different than the parameter that have to be used for speech recognition . professor a: yeah . so basically you want to reduce this effect . phd f: well , y professor a: so you can do that by doing the voi voice activity detection . you also could do it by spect uh spectral subtraction before the variance normalization , right ? phd f: yeah , but it 's not clear , yeah . professor a: so uh phd f: we so . well . it 's just to professor a: yeah . phd f: the the number that at that are here are recognition experiments on italian hm and mm with these two kinds of parameters . and , well , it 's better with variance normalization . professor a: yeah . yeah . so it does get better even though it looks ugly . phd f: uh professor a: ok . but does this have the voice activity detection in it ? phd f: yeah . professor a: ok . phd f: um . professor a: so . grad e: ok . phd b: where 's th phd f: but the fact is that the voice activity detector does n't work on channel one . so . yeah . professor a: uh - huh . phd b: where at what stage is the voice activity detector applied ? is it applied here or a after the variance normalization ? phd f: hmm ? professor a: spectral subtraction , i guess . phd b: or phd f: it 's applied before variance normalization . so it 's a good thing , phd b: oh . phd f: because i guess voice activity detection on this should could be worse . phd b: yeah . is it applied all the way back here ? phd f: it 's applied the um on , yeah , something like this , phd b: maybe that 's why it does n't work for channel one . phd f: yeah . perhaps , yeah . professor a: can i phd f: so we could perhaps do just mean normalization before vad . phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: mm - hmm . can i ask a , i mean a sort of top - level question , which is um `` if if most of what the ogi folk are working with is trying to integrate this other other uh spectral subtraction , why are we worrying about it ? `` phd f: mm - hmm . about ? spectral subtraction ? professor a: yeah . phd f: it 's just uh well it 's another they are trying to u to use the um the ericsson and we 're trying to use something something else . and . yeah , and also to understand what happens because professor a: ok . phd f: uh fff well . when we do spectral subtraction , actually , i think that this is the the two last figures . professor a: yeah . phd f: um . it seems that after spectral subtraction , speech is more emerging now uh than than before . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: speech is more what ? phd f: well , the difference between the energy of the speech and the energy of the n spectral subtrac subtracted noise portion is is larger . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: well , if you compare the first figure to this one actually the scale is not the same , but if you look at the the numbers um you clearly see that the difference between the c - zero of the speech and c - zero of the noise portion is larger . uh but what happens is that after spectral subtraction , you also increase the variance of this of c - zero . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: and so if you apply variance normalization on this , it completely sc screw everything . well . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: um . uh . yeah . so yeah . and what they did at ogi is just uh they do n't use on - line normalization , for the moment , on spectral subtraction and i think yeah . i think as soon as they will try on - line normalization there will be a problem . so yeah , we 're working on the same thing but i think uh with different different system and professor a: right . i mean , i the intellectually it 's interesting to work on things th uh one way or the other phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: but i 'm i 'm just wondering if um on the list of things that there are to do , if there are things that we wo n't do because we 've got two groups doing the same thing . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: um . that 's phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: um . just just asking . uh . i mean , it 's phd f: yeah , well , phd b: there also could be i mean . i can maybe see a reason f for both working on it too phd f: uh . phd b: if um you know , if if if you work on something else and and you 're waiting for them to give you spectral subtraction i mean it 's hard to know whether the effects that you get from the other experiments you do will carry over once you then bring in their spectral subtraction module . so it 's it 's almost like everything 's held up waiting for this one thing . i do n't know if that 's true or not , but i could see how phd f: mmm . professor a: i do n't know . phd b: maybe that 's what you were thinking . professor a: i do n't know . i mean , we still evidently have a latency reduction plan which which is n't quite what you 'd like it to be . that that seems like one prominent thing . and then uh were n't issues of of having a a second stream or something ? that was was it there was this business that , you know , we we could use up the full forty - eight hundred bits , and phd f: yeah . but i think they ' i think we want to work on this . they also want to work on this , so . uh . yeah . we we will try msg , but um , yeah . and they are t i think they want to work on the second stream also , but more with some kind of multi - band or , well , what they call trap or generalized trap . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: um . so . professor a: ok . do you remember when the next meeting is supposed to be ? the next uh phd f: it 's uh in june . professor a: in june . ok . phd f: yeah . professor a: yeah . um . yeah , the other thing is that you saw that that mail about uh the vad v a ds performing quite differently ? that that uh so um . this there was this experiment of uh `` what if we just take the baseline ? `` phd f: mmm . professor a: set uh of features , just mel cepstra , and you inc incorporate the different v a and it looks like the the french vad is actually uh better significantly better . phd b: improves the baseline ? professor a: yeah . yeah . phd f: yeah but i do n't know which vad they use . uh . if the use the small vad i th i think it 's on i think it 's easy to do better because it does n't work at all . so . i i do n't know which which one . it 's pratibha that that did this experiment . phd d: yeah . phd f: um . we should ask which vad she used . phd d: i do n't @ @ . he actually , i think that he say with the good vad of from ogi and with the alcatel vad . and the experiment was sometime better , sometime worse . phd f: yeah but i it 's uh i think you were talking about the other mail that used vad on the reference features . professor a: yes . phd f: yeah . professor a: and on that one , uh the french one is was better . phd d: i do n't remember . professor a: it was just better . phd d: mm - hmm . professor a: i mean it was enough better that that it would uh account for a fair amount of the difference between our performance , actually . phd f: mm - hmm . phd d: mm - hmm . professor a: so . uh . so if they have a better one , we should use it . i mean . you know ? it 's you ca n't work on everything . phd f: yeah . professor a: uh . uh . yeah . phd f: yeah , so we should find out if it 's really better . i mean if it the compared to the small or the big network . phd d: mm - hmm . professor a: yeah . phd f: and perhaps we can easily improve if if we put like mean normalization before the before the vad . because as as you 've mentioned . professor a: yeah . phd f: mmm . professor a: h hynek will be back in town uh the week after next , back back in the country . so . and start start organizing uh more visits and connections and so forth , phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and uh working towards june . phd f: yeah . phd d: also is stephane was thinking that maybe it was useful to f to think about uh voiced - unvoiced phd f: mm - hmm . phd d: to work uh here in voiced - unvoiced detection . phd f: yeah . yeah . phd d: and we are looking in the uh signal . phd f: yeah , my feeling is that um actually when we look at all the proposals , ev everybody is still using some kind of spectral envelope professor a: right . phd f: and um it 's professor a: no use of pitch uh basically . yeah . phd f: yeah , well , not pitch , but to look at the um fine at the at the high re high resolution spectrum . professor a: yeah . well , it phd f: so . we do n't necessarily want to find the the pitch of the of the sound but uh cuz i have a feeling that when we look when we look at the just at the envelope there is no way you can tell if it 's voiced and unvoiced , if there is some it 's it 's easy in clean speech because voiced sound are more low frequency and . so there would be more , professor a: yeah . phd f: uh there is the first formant , which is the larger and then voiced sound are more high frequencies cuz it 's frication and professor a: right . phd f: but , yeah . when you have noise there is no um if if you have a low frequency noise it could be taken for for voiced speech and . professor a: yeah , you can make these mistakes , phd f: so . professor a: but but phd b: is n't there some other phd f: s phd b: uh d phd f: so i think that it it would be good yeah , yeah , well , go go on . phd b: uh , i was just gon na say is n't there are n't are n't there lots of ideas for doing voice activity , or speech - nonspeech rather , { comment } um by looking at um , you know , uh i guess harmonics or looking across time professor a: well , i think he was talking about the voiced - unvoiced , though , phd f: mmm . professor a: right ? so , not the speech - nonspeech . phd b: yeah . well even with e professor a: yeah . phd b: uh w ah you know , uh even with the voiced - non voiced - unvoiced phd f: mmm . phd b: um i thought that you or somebody was talking about professor a: well . uh yeah . b we should let him finish what he w he was gon na say , phd f: so . phd b: ok . professor a: and phd b: so go ahead . phd f: um yeah , so yeah , i think if we try to develop a second stream well , there would be one stream that is the envelope and the second , it could be interesting to have that 's something that 's more related to the fine structure of the spectrum . and . yeah , so i do n't know . we were thinking about like using ideas from from larry saul , have a good voice detector , have a good , well , voiced - speech detector , that 's working on on the fft and uh professor a: u phd f: larry saul could be an idea . we were are thinking about just kind of uh taking the spectrum and computing the variance of of the high resolution spectrum and things like this . professor a: so u s u ok . so so many tell you something about that . uh we had a guy here some years ago who did some work on um making use of voicing information uh to help in reducing the noise . phd f: yeah ? professor a: so what he was doing is basically y you you do estimate the pitch . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and um you from that you you estimate or you estimate fine harmonic structure , whichev ei either way , it 's more or less the same . but uh the thing is that um you then can get rid of things that are not i if there is strong harmonic structure , you can throw away stuff that 's that 's non - harmonic . phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor a: and that that is another way of getting rid of part of the noise phd f: yeah . professor a: so um that 's something that is sort of finer , phd f: yeah . professor a: brings in a little more information than just spectral subtraction . um . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and he had some i mean , he did that sort of in combination with rasta . it was kind of like rasta was taking care of convolutional stuff phd f: mmm . professor a: and he was phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and and got some some decent results doing that . so that that 's another another way . but yeah , there 's there 's phd f: yeah . mmm . professor a: right . there 's all these cues . we 've actually back when chuck was here we did some voiced - unvoiced uh classification using a bunch of these , phd f: but professor a: and and uh works ok . obviously it 's not perfect but um phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: but the thing is that you ca n't given the constraints of this task , we ca n't , in a very nice way , feed forward to the recognizer the information the probabilistic information that you might get about whether it 's voiced or unvoiced , where w we ca n't you know affect the the uh distributions or anything . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: but we what we uh i guess we could yeah . phd b: did n't the head dude send around that message ? yeah , i think you sent us all a copy of the message , where he was saying that i i 'm not sure , exactly , what the gist of what he was saying , but something having to do with the voice activity detector and that it will that people should n't put their own in or something . it was gon na be a professor a: that but ok . so that 's voice activity detector as opposed to voicing detector . phd f: they did n't . professor a: so we 're talking about something a little different . phd f: mmm . phd b: oh , i 'm sorry . professor a: right ? phd b: i i missed that . phd f: mmm . professor a: i guess what you could do , maybe this would be w useful , if if you have if you view the second stream , yeah , before you before you do klt 's and so forth , if you do view it as probabilities , and if it 's an independent so , if it 's if it 's uh not so much envelope - based by fine - structure - based , uh looking at harmonicity or something like that , um if you get a probability from that information and then multiply it by you know , multiply by all the voiced outputs and all the unvoiced outputs , you know , then use that as the phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: uh take the log of that or uh pre pre uh pre - nonlinearity , phd f: yeah . i if professor a: uh and do the klt on the on on that , phd f: yeah . professor a: then that would that would i guess be uh a reasonable use of independent information . so maybe that 's what you meant . and then that would be phd f: yeah , well , i was not thinking this yeah , this could be an yeah so you mean have some kind of probability for the v the voicing professor a: r right . so you have a second neural net . phd f: and then use a tandem system professor a: it could be pretty small . yeah . if you have a tandem system and then you have some kind of it can be pretty small net phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: we used we d did some of this stuff . uh i i did , some years ago , phd f: yeah . professor a: and the and and you use the thing is to use information primarily that 's different as you say , it 's more fine - structure - based than than envelope - based phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: uh so then it you you you can pretty much guarantee it 's stuff that you 're not looking at very well with the other one , and uh then you only use for this one distinction . phd f: alright . professor a: and and so now you 've got a probability of the cases , and you 've got uh the probability of the finer uh categories on the other side . you multiply them where appropriate and uh um phd f: i see , yeah . mm - hmm . professor a: if they really are from independent information sources then they should have different kinds of errors phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and roughly independent errors , and it 's a good choice for phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . yeah . professor a: uh . yeah , that 's a good idea . phd f: yeah . because , yeah , well , spectral subtraction is good and we could u we could use the fine structure to to have a better estimate of the noise but still there is this issue with spectral subtraction that it seems to increase the variance of of of professor a: yeah . phd f: um well it 's this musical noise which is annoying if you d you do some kind of on - line normalization after . professor a: right . phd f: so . um . yeah . well . spectral subtraction and on - line normalization do n't seem to to go together very well . i professor a: or if you do a spectral subtraction do some spectral subtraction first and then do some on - line normalization then do some more spectral subtraction i mean , maybe maybe you can do it layers or something so it does n't does n't hurt too much or something . phd f: ah , yeah . professor a: but it but uh , anyway i think i was sort of arguing against myself there by giving that example phd f: yeah . professor a: uh i mean cuz i was already sort of suggesting that we should be careful about not spending too much time on exactly what they 're doing in fact if you get if you go into uh a uh harmonics - related thing it 's definitely going to be different than what they 're doing and uh uh phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: should have some interesting properties in noise . um . i know that when have people have done um sort of the obvious thing of taking uh your feature vector and adding in some variables which are pitch related or uh that it has n't my impression it has n't particularly helped . uh . has not . phd f: it it i has not , professor a: yeah . phd f: yeah . professor a: but i think uh that 's that 's a question for this uh you know extending the feature vector versus having different streams . phd f: oh . was it nois noisy condition ? the example that you you just professor a: and and it may not have been noisy conditions . phd f: yeah . professor a: yeah . i i do n't remember the example but it was it was on some darpa data and some years ago and so it probably was n't , actually phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . yeah . but we were thinking , we discussed with barry about this , and perhaps thinking we were thinking about some kind of sheet cheating experiment where we would use timit professor a: uh - huh . phd f: and see if giving the d uh , this voicing bit would help in in terms of uh frame classification . professor a: why do n't you why do n't you just do it with aurora ? phd f: mmm . professor a: just any i in in each in each frame phd f: yeah , but but b but we can not do the cheating , this cheating thing . grad e: we 're professor a: uh grad e: we need labels . professor a: why not ? phd f: well . cuz we do n't have well , for italian perhaps we have , but we do n't have this labeling for aurora . we just have a labeling with word models professor a: i see . phd f: but not for phonemes . phd d: not for foreigners . grad e: we do n't have frame frame level transcriptions . professor a: um . phd d: right . phd f: um . yeah . professor a: but you could i mean you can you can align so that it 's not perfect , but if you if you know what was said and phd b: but the problem is that their models are all word level models . so there 's no phone models that you get alignments for . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: oh . phd b: you so you could find out where the word boundaries are but that 's about it . professor a: yeah . i see . grad e: s but we could use uh the the noisy version that timit , which you know , is similar to the the noises found in the ti - digits um portion of aurora . phd f: yeah . noise , yeah . yeah , that 's right , yep . mmm . professor a: yeah . phd f: well , i guess i guess we can we can say that it will help , but i do n't know . if this voicing bit does n't help , uh , i think we do n't have to to work more about this because professor a: uh . phd f: uh . it 's just to know if it how much i it will help professor a: yeah . phd f: and to have an idea of how much we can gain . professor a: right . i mean in experiments that we did a long time ago phd f: mmm . professor a: and different ta it was probably resource management or something , um , i think you were getting something like still eight or nine percent error on the voicing , as i recall . and um , so um grad e: another person 's voice . professor a: what that said is that , sort of , left to its own devices , like without the a strong language model and so forth , that you would you would make significant number of errors just with your uh probabilistic machinery in deciding phd b: it also professor a: one oh phd b: yeah , the though i think uh there was one problem with that in that , you know , we used canonical mapping so our truth may not have really been true to the acoustics . professor a: uh - huh . grad e: hmm . phd b: so . phd f: mmm . professor a: yeah . well back twenty years ago when i did this voiced - unvoiced stuff , we were getting more like ninety - seven or ninety - eight percent correct in voicing . but that was speaker - dependent actually . we were doing training on a particular announcer phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and and getting a very good handle on the features . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and we did this complex feature selection thing where we looked at all the different possible features one could have for voicing and and and uh and exhaustively searched all size subsets and and uh for for that particular speaker and you 'd find you know the five or six features which really did well on them . phd b: wow ! phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and then doing doing all of that we could get down to two or three percent error . but that , again , was speaker - dependent with lots of feature selection phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and a very complex sort of thing . phd f: mmm . professor a: so i would i would believe that uh it was quite likely that um looking at envelope only , that we 'd be significantly worse than that . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: uh . phd f: and the all the the speechcorders ? what 's the idea behind ? cuz they they have to oh , they do n't even have to detect voiced spe speech ? professor a: the modern ones do n't do a a simple switch . phd f: they just work on the code book professor a: they work on the code book excitation . phd f: and find out the best excitation . professor a: yeah they do analysis - by - synthesis . they try they they try every every possible excitation they have in their code book and find the one that matches best . phd f: yeah . mmm . alright . yeah . so it would not help . professor a: yeah . grad e: hmm . professor a: uh . o k . phd b: can i just mention one other interesting thing ? professor a: yeah . phd b: um . one of the ideas that we had come up with last week for things to try to improve the system um . actually i i s we did n't i guess i wrote this in after the meeting b but the thought i had was um looking at the language model that 's used in the htk recognizer , which is basically just a big loop , grad e: mm - hmm . phd b: right ? so you it goes `` digit `` phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: and then that can be either go to silence or go to another digit , which that model would allow for the production of infinitely long sequences of digits , right ? professor a: right . phd b: so . i thought `` well i 'm gon na just look at the what actual digit strings do occur in the training data . `` professor a: right . phd b: and the interesting thing was it turns out that there are no sequences of two - long or three - long digit strings in any of the aurora training data . so it 's either one , four , five , six , uh up to eleven , and then it skips and then there 's some at sixteen . professor a: but what about the testing data ? phd b: um . i do n't know . i did n't look at the test data yet . professor a: yeah . i mean if there 's some testing data that has has has two or three phd b: so . yeah . but i just thought that was a little odd , that there were no two or three long sorry . so i i just for the heck of it , i made a little grammar which um , you know , had it 's separate path for each length digit string you could get . so there was a one - long path and there was a four - long and a five - long professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: and i tried that and it got way worse . there were lots of deletions . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: so it was you know , i i did n't have any weights of these paths or i did n't have anything like that . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: and i played with tweaking the word transition penalties a bunch , but i could n't go anywhere . professor a: hmm . phd b: but um . i thought `` well if i only allow `` yeah , i guess i should have looked at to see how often there was a mistake where a two - long or a three - long path was actually put out as a hypothesis . um . but . professor a: hmm . phd b: so to do that right you 'd probably want to have allow for them all but then have weightings and things . so . i just thought that was a interesting thing about the data . professor a: ok . so we 're gon na read some more digit strings i guess ? phd b: yeah . you want to go ahead , morgan ? professor a: sure .

phd b thought that a smaller capacitor might help with reverberation . phd b was also interested in the cutoff frequency to ensure that reverberation does not interfere with speech too much . phd b thought it was around 20 .

summarize the discussion on eurospeech and reverberation </s> phd b: ok . we 're on . grad e: hello ? professor a: ok , so uh had some interesting mail from uh dan ellis . actually , i think he he redirected it to everybody also so uh the pda mikes uh have a big bunch of energy at at uh five hertz uh where this came up was that uh i was showing off these wave forms that we have on the web and and uh i just sort of had n't noticed this , but that the major , major component in the wave in the second wave form in that pair of wave forms is actually the air conditioner . grad c: huh . professor a: so . so . i i have to be more careful about using that as a as a as a good illustration , uh , in fact it 's not , of uh of the effects of room reverberation . it is is n't a bad illustration of the effects of uh room noise . on on uh some mikes uh but so . and then we had this other discussion about um whether this affects the dynamic range , cuz i know , although we start off with thirty two bits , you end up with uh sixteen bits and you know , are we getting hurt there ? but uh dan is pretty confident that we 're not , that that quantization error is not is still not a significant factor there . so . so there was a question of whether we should change things here , whether we should change a capacitor on the input box for that or whether we should phd b: yeah , he suggested a smaller capacitor , right ? professor a: right . but then i had some other uh thing discussions with him phd b: for the p d professor a: and the feeling was once we start monk monkeying with that , uh , many other problems could ha happen . and additionally we we already have a lot of data that 's been collected with that , so . phd b: yeah . professor a: a simple thing to do is he he he has a i forget if it this was in that mail or in the following mail , but he has a a simple filter , a digital filter that he suggested . we just run over the data before we deal with it . phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: um the other thing that i do n't know the answer to , but when people are using feacalc here , uh whether they 're using it with the high - pass filter option or not . and i do n't know if anybody knows . grad e: um . i could go check . professor a: but . yeah . so when we 're doing all these things using our software there is um if it 's if it 's based on the rasta - plp program , which does both plp and rasta - plp um then uh there is an option there which then comes up through to feacalc which um allows you to do high - pass filtering and in general we like to do that , because of things like this and it 's it 's pretty it 's not a very severe filter . does n't affect speech frequencies , even pretty low speech frequencies , at all , but it 's phd b: what 's the cut - off frequency it used ? professor a: oh . i do n't know i wrote this a while ago phd b: is it like twenty ? professor a: something like that . phd b: yeah . professor a: yeah . i mean i think there 's some effect above twenty but it 's it 's it 's it 's mild . so , i mean it probably there 's probably some effect up to a hundred hertz or something but it 's it 's pretty mild . i do n't know in the in the strut implementation of the stuff is there a high - pass filter or a pre pre - emphasis or something in the phd f: uh . i think we use a pre - emphasis . yeah . yeah . professor a: so . we we we want to go and check that in i for anything that we 're going to use the p d a mike for . uh he says that there 's a pretty good roll off in the pzm mikes so we do n't need need to worry about them one way or the other but if we do make use of the cheap mikes , uh we want to be sure to do that that filtering before we process it . and then again if it 's uh depending on the option that the our our software is being run with , it 's it 's quite possible that 's already being taken care of . uh but i also have to pick a different picture to show the effects of reverberation . uh phd b: did somebody notice it during your talk ? professor a: uh no . phd b: huh . professor a: well . uh well . if they made output they were they were , you know they were nice . phd b: did n't say anything ? professor a: but . i mean the thing is it was since i was talking about reverberation and showing this thing that was noise , it was n't a good match , but it certainly was still uh an indication of the fact that you get noise with distant mikes . uh it 's just not a great example because not only is n't it reverberation but it 's a noise that we definitely know what to do . phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: so , i mean , it does n't take deep a new bold new methods to get rid of uh five hertz noise , so . phd b: yeah . professor a: um uh but . so it was it was a bad example in that way , but it 's it still is it 's the real thing that we did get out of the microphone at distance , so it was n't it w it w was n't wrong it was inappropriate . so . so uh , but uh , yeah , someone noticed it later pointed it out to me , and i went `` oh , man . why did n't i notice that ? `` phd b: hmm . professor a: um . so . um so i think we 'll change our our picture on the web , when we 're @ @ . one of the things i was i mean , i was trying to think about what what 's the best way to show the difference an and i had a couple of thoughts one was , that spectrogram that we show is o k , but the thing is the eyes uh and the the brain behind them are so good at picking out patterns from from noise that in first glance you look at them it does n't seem like it 's that bad uh because there 's many features that are still preserved . so one thing to do might be to just take a piece of the spec uh of the spectrogram where you can see that something looks different , an and blow it up , and have that be the part that 's just to show as well . you know . phd b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor a: i i some things are going to be hurt . um another , i was thinking of was um taking some spectral slices , like uh like we look at with the recognizer , and look at the spectrum or cepstrum that you get out of there , and the the uh , um , the reverberation uh does make it does change that . and so maybe maybe that would be more obvious . phd b: hmm . grad c: spectral slices ? professor a: yeah . grad c: w w what d what do you mean ? professor a: well , i mean um all the recognizers look at frames . so they they look at phd b: so like one instant in time . professor a: yeah , look at a grad c: ok . professor a: so it 's , yeah , at one point in time or uh twenty over twenty milliseconds or something , you have a spectrum or a cepstrum . grad c: ok . professor a: that 's what i meant by a slice . grad c: i see . professor a: yeah . and if you look at phd b: you could just you could just throw up , you know , uh the uh some mfcc feature vectors . you know , one from one , one from the other , and then , you know , you can look and see how different the numbers are . professor a: right . well , that 's why i saying either well , either spectrum or cepstrum phd b: i 'm just kidding . professor a: but but i think the thing is you wan na phd b: i do n't mean a graph . i mean the actual numbers . professor a: oh . i see . oh . that would be lovely , yeah . phd b: yeah . `` see how different these sequences of numbers are ? `` professor a: yeah . or i could just add them up and get a different total . phd b: yeah . it 's not the square . professor a: ok . uh . what else wh what 's what else is going on ? phd f: uh , yeah . yeah , at first i had a remark why i am wondering why the pda is always so far . i mean we are always meeting at the beginning of the table and the pda 's there . professor a: uh . i guess cuz we have n't wanted to move it . we we could we could move us , phd f: yeah ? professor a: and . phd f: ok . grad e: that 's right . phd f: well , anyway . um . yeah , so . uh . since the last meeting we 've we 've tried to put together um the clean low - pass um downsampling , upsampling , i mean , uh the new filter that 's replacing the lda filters , and also the um delay issue so that we considered th the the delay issue on the for the on - line normalization . mmm . so we 've put together all this and then we have results that are not um very impressive . well , there is no real improvement . professor a: but it 's not wer worse and it 's better better latency , phd f: it 's not professor a: right ? phd f: yeah . yeah . well . actually it 's better . it seems better when we look at the mismatched case but i think we are like like cheated here by the th this problem that uh in some cases when you modify slight slightly modify the initial condition you end up completely somewhere air somewhere else in the in the space , the parameters . professor a: yeah . phd f: so . well . the other system are for instance . for italian is at seventy - eight percent recognition rate on the mismatch , and this new system has eighty - nine . but i do n't think it indicates something , really . i do n't i do n't think it means that the new system is more robust professor a: uh - huh . phd f: or it 's simply the fact that well . professor a: well , the test would be if you then tried it on one of the other test sets , if if it was phd f: y professor a: right . so this was italian , right ? phd f: yeah . yeah . professor a: so then if you take your changes phd f: it 's similar for other test sets professor a: and then phd f: but i mean from this se seventy - eight um percent recognition rate system , i could change the transition probabilities for the the first hmm and it will end up to eighty - nine also . professor a: uh - huh . phd f: by using point five instead of point six , point four as in the the htk script . professor a: uh - huh . yeah . phd f: so . well . that 's phd b: yeah . yeah i looked at um looked at the results when stephane did that phd f: well . eh uh phd b: and it 's it 's really wo really happens . phd f: this really happens . phd b: i mean th the only difference is you change the self - loop transition probability by a tenth of a percent phd f: yeah . professor a: yeah . phd b: and it causes ten percent difference in the word error rate . professor a: a tenth of a per cent . phd b: yeah . from point phd f: even tenth of a percent ? phd b: i i 'm sorry phd f: well , we tried we tried point one , phd b: f for point from you change at point one phd f: yeah . professor a: oh ! phd b: and n not tenth of a percent , one tenth , phd f: hmm . professor a: yeah . phd b: alright ? um so from point five so from point six to point five and you get ten percent better . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: and it 's i think it 's what you basically hypothesized in the last meeting about uh it just being very phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: and i think you mentioned this in your email too it 's just very um phd f: mmm , yeah . phd b: you know get stuck in some local minimum and this thing throws you out of it i guess . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: well , what 's what are according to the rules what what are we supposed to do about the transition probabilities ? are they supposed to be point five or point six ? phd b: i think you 're not allowed to yeah . that 's supposed to be point six , for the self - loop . phd f: yeah . professor a: point it 's supposed to be point six . phd b: yeah . but changing it to point five i think is which gives you much better results , but that 's not allowed . professor a: but not allowed ? yeah . ok . phd b: yeah . phd f: yeah , but even if you use point five , i 'm not sure it will always give you the better results phd b: yeah . phd f: on other test set or it phd b: right . we only tested it on the the medium mismatch , phd f: on the other training set , i mean . phd b: right ? you said on the other cases you did n't notice phd f: yeah . but . i think , yeah . i think the reason is , yeah , i not i it was in my mail i think also , is the fact that the mismatch is trained only on the far microphone . well , in for the mismatched case everything is um using the far microphone training and testing , whereas for the highly mismatched , training is done on the close microphone so it 's it 's clean speech basically so you do n't have this problem of local minima probably and for the well - match , it 's a mix of close microphone and distant microphone and well . phd b: i did notice uh something phd f: so th i think the mismatch is the more difficult for the training part . phd b: somebody , i think it was morgan , suggested at the last meeting that i actually count to see how many parameters and how many frames . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: and there are uh almost one point eight million frames of training data and less than forty thousand parameters in the baseline system . professor a: hmm . phd f: yeah . phd b: so it 's very , very few parameters compared to how much training data . professor a: well . yes . phd d: mm - hmm . professor a: so . and that that says that we could have lots more parameters actually . phd b: yeah . yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: i did one quick experiment just to make sure i had everything worked out and i just uh f for most of the um for for all of the digit models , they end up at three mixtures per state . and so i just did a quick experiment , where i changed it so it went to four and um it it it did n't have a r any significant effect at the uh medium mismatch and high mismatch cases and it had it was just barely significant for the well - matched better . uh so i 'm r gon na run that again but um with many more uh mixtures per state . professor a: yeah . cuz at forty thou i mean you could you could have uh yeah , easily four times as many parameters . phd b: mm - hmm . and i think also just seeing what we saw uh in terms of the expected duration of the silence model ? when we did this tweaking of the self - loop ? the silence model expected duration was really different . phd f: yeah . phd b: and so in the case where um it had a better score , the silence model expected duration was much longer . phd f: yeah . phd b: so it was like it was a better match . i think you know if we make a better silence model i think that will help a lot too um for a lot of these cases so but one one thing i i wanted to check out before i increased the um number of mixtures per state was uh in their default training script they do an initial set of three re - estimations and then they built the silence model and then they do seven iterations then the add mixtures and they do another seven then they add mixtures then they do a final set of seven and they quit . seven seems like a lot to me and it also makes the experiments go take a really long time i mean to do one turn - around of the well matched case takes like a day . professor a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd b: and so you know in trying to run these experiments i notice , you know , it 's difficult to find machines , you know , compute the run on . and so one of the things i did was i compiled htk for the linux machines professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: cuz we have this one from ibm that 's got like five processors in it ? professor a: right . phd b: and so now i 'm you can run stuff on that and that really helps a lot because now we 've got you know , extra machines that we can use for compute . and if i 'm do running an experiment right now where i 'm changing the number of iterations ? from seven to three ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor a: yeah . phd b: just to see how it affects the baseline system . and so if we can get away with just doing three , we can do many more experiments more quickly . and if it 's not a a huge difference from running with seven iterations , um , you know , we should be able to get a lot more experiments done . phd f: hmm . phd b: and so . i 'll let you know what what happens with that . but if we can you know , run all of these back - ends f with many fewer iterations and on linux boxes we should be able to get a lot more experimenting done . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: so . so i wanted to experiment with cutting down the number of iterations before i increased the number of gaussians . professor a: right . sorry . so um , how 's it going on the phd f: um . professor a: so . you you did some things . they did n't improve things in a way that convinced you you 'd substantially improved anything . phd f: yeah . professor a: but they 're not making things worse and we have reduced latency , right ? phd f: yeah . but actually um actually it seems to do a little bit worse for the well - matched case and we just noticed that yeah , actually the way the final score is computed is quite funny . it 's not a mean of word error rate . it 's not a weighted mean of word error rate , it 's a weighted mean of improvements . professor a: uh - huh . phd f: so . which means that actually the weight on the well - matched is well i well what what what happened is that if you have a small improvement or a small if on the well - matched case it will have uh huge influence on the improvement compared to the reference because the reference system is is is quite good for for the well - ma well - matched case also . phd b: so it it weights the improvement on the well - matched case really heavily compared to the improvement on the other cases ? phd f: no , but it 's the weighting of the of the improvement not of the error rate . phd b: yeah . yeah , and it 's hard to improve on the on the best case , cuz it 's already so good , right ? phd f: yeah but what i mean is that you can have a huge improvement on the h hmk 's , uh like five percent uh absolute , and this will not affect the final score almost uh this will almost not affect the final score because this improvement because the improvement uh relative to the the baseline is small professor a: so they do improvement in terms of uh accuracy ? rather than word error rate ? phd f: uh . uh improvement ? professor a: so phd f: no , it 's compared to the word er it 's improvement on the word error rate , professor a: ok . phd f: yeah . sorry . professor a: so if you have uh ten percent error and you get five percent absolute uh improvement then that 's fifty percent . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: ok . so what you 're saying then is that if it 's something that has a small word error rate , then uh a even a relatively small improvement on it , in absolute terms , will show up as quite quite large in this . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: is that what you 're saying ? phd f: yeah . professor a: yes . phd f: yeah . professor a: ok . but yeah that 's that 's it 's the notion of relative improvement . word error rate . phd f: yeah . sure , but when we think about the weighting , which is point five , point three , point two , it 's on absolute on on relative figures , professor a: yeah . phd f: not professor a: yeah . phd f: so when we look at this error rate professor a: no . that 's why i 've been saying we should be looking at word error rate uh and and not not at at accuracies . phd f: uh mmm , yeah . mmm , yeah . professor a: it 's phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: i mean uh we probably should have standardized on that all the way through . it 's just phd b: well . phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean , it 's not it 's not that different , right ? i mean , just subtract the accuracy . professor a: yeah but you 're but when you look at the numbers , your sense of the relative size of things is quite different . phd b: i mean oh . oh , i see . yeah . professor a: if you had ninety percent uh correct and five percent , five over ninety does n't look like it 's a big difference , but five over ten is is big . phd b: mm - hmm . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: so just when we were looking at a lot of numbers and getting sense of what was important . phd b: i see . i see . yeah . that makes sense . professor a: um . phd f: mmm . professor a: um . phd f: well anyway uh . so . yeah . so it hurts a little bit on the well - match and yeah . professor a: what 's a little bit ? like phd f: like , it 's difficult to say because again um i 'm not sure i have the um phd b: hey morgan ? do you remember that signif program that we used to use for testing signi ? is that still valid ? i i 've been using that . professor a: yeah . yeah , it was actually updated . phd b: ok . professor a: uh . jeff updated it some years ago phd b: oh , it was . oh , i shoul professor a: and and uh cleaned it up made some things better in it . so . phd b: ok . i should find that new one . i just use my old one from ninety - two or whatever professor a: yeah , i 'm sure it 's not that different but but he he uh he was a little more rigorous , as i recall . phd b: ok . phd f: right . so it 's around , like , point five . no , point six { comment } uh percent absolute on italian professor a: worse . phd f: worse , yep . professor a: out of what ? i mean . s phd f: uh well we start from ninety - four point sixty - four , and we go to ninety - four point o four . professor a: uh - huh . so that 's six six point th phd f: uh . phd b: ninety - three point six four , right ? is the baseline . phd f: oh , no , i 've ninety - four . oh , the baseline , you mean . phd b: yeah . phd f: well i do n't i 'm not talking about the baseline here . phd b: oh . oh . i 'm sorry . phd f: i uh my baseline is the submitted system . phd b: ah ! ok . ah , ah . phd f: hmm . professor a: yeah . phd b: sorry . phd f: oh yeah . for finnish , we start to ninety - three point eight - four and we go to ninety - three point seventy - four . and for spanish we are we were at ninety - five point o five and we go to ninety - three - s point sixty one . professor a: ok , so we are getting hurt somewhat . phd f: so . professor a: and is that wh what do you know what piece you 've done several changes here . uh , do you know what pie phd f: yeah . i guess i guess it 's it 's the filter . because nnn , well uh we do n't have complete result , but the filter so the filter with the shorter delay hurts on italian well - matched , which and , yeah . and the other things , like um downsampling , upsampling , do n't seem to hurt and the new on - line normalization , neither . phd b: i 'm phd f: so . phd b: i 'm really confused about something . if we saw that making a small change like , you know , a tenth , to the self - loop had a huge effect , can we really make any conclusions about differences in this stuff ? phd f: mm - hmm . yeah that 's th yeah . phd b: i mean , especially when they 're this small . i mean . phd f: i think we can be completely fooled by this thing , but i do n't know . professor a: well , yeah . phd f: so . there is first this thing , and then the yeah , i computed the um like , the confidence level on the different test sets . and for the well - matched they are around um point six uh percent . for the mismatched they are around like let 's say one point five percent . and for the well - m uh hm they are also around one point five . professor a: but ok , so you these these degradations you were talking about were on the well - matched case phd f: so . professor a: uh . do the does the new filter make things uh better or worse for the other cases ? phd f: yeah . but . uh . about the same . it does n't hurt . yeah . professor a: does n't hurt , but does n't get a little better , or something . phd f: no . professor a: no . ok , so um i guess the argument one might make is that , `` yeah , if you looked at one of these cases and you jiggle something and it changes then uh you 're not quite sure what to make of it . but when you look across a bunch of these and there 's some some pattern , um i mean , so eh h here 's all the if if in all these different cases it never gets better , and there 's significant number of cases where it gets worse , then you 're probably hurting things , i would say . so um i mean at the very least that would be a reasonably prediction of what would happen with with a different test set , that you 're not jiggling things with . so i guess the question is if you can do better than this . if you can if we can approximate the old numbers while still keeping the latency down . phd f: mmm . yeah . professor a: uh , so . um . what i was asking , though , is uh are what 's what 's the level of communication with uh the o g i gang now , about this and phd f: well , we are exchanging mail as soon as we we have significant results . professor a: yeah . phd f: um . yeah . for the moment , they are working on integrating the um spectral subtraction apparently from ericsson . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: um . yeah . and so . yeah . we are working on our side on other things like uh also trying a sup spectral subtraction but of of our own , i mean , another spectral substraction . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: um . yeah . so i think it 's it 's ok . it 's going professor a: is there any further discussion about this this idea of of having some sort of source code control ? phd f: yeah . well . for the moment they 're uh everybody 's quite um there is this eurospeech deadline , so . professor a: i see . phd f: um . and . yeah . but yeah . as soon as we have something that 's significant and that 's better than than what was submitted , we will fix fix the system and but we 've not discussed it it it this yet , yeah . professor a: yeah . sounds like a great idea but but i think that that um he 's saying people are sort of scrambling for a eurospeech deadline . phd f: mmm . professor a: but that 'll be uh , uh done in a week . so , maybe after this next one . phd f: yeah . phd b: wow ! already a week ! man ! professor a: yeah . phd b: you 're right . that 's amazing . professor a: yeah . anybo - anybody in the in this group do doing anything for eurospeech ? phd f: s professor a: or , is that what is that phd f: yeah we are we are trying to to do something with the meeting recorder digits , professor a: right . phd f: and but yeah . yeah . and the good thing is that there is this first deadline , professor a: yeah . phd f: and , well , some people from ogi are working on a paper for this , but there is also the um special session about th aurora which is uh which has an extended deadline . so . the deadline is in may . professor a: for uh oh , for eurospeech ? phd f: for th yeah . professor a: oh ! phd f: so f only for the experiments on aurora . so it it 's good , professor a: oh , a special dispensation . phd f: yeah . professor a: that 's great . phd b: mm - hmm . where is eurospeech this year ? phd f: it 's in denmark . professor a: aalborg aalborg uh phd b: oh . professor a: so the deadline when 's the deadline ? when 's the deadline ? phd f: hmm ? i think it 's the thirteenth of may . professor a: that 's great ! it 's great . so we should definitely get something in for that . phd f: yeah . professor a: but on meeting digits , maybe there 's maybe . phd f: yeah . professor a: maybe . phd f: so it would be for the first deadline . professor a: yeah . phd f: nnn . professor a: yeah . so , i mean , i i think that you could certainly start looking at at the issue uh but but uh i think it 's probably , on s from what stephane is saying , it 's it 's unlikely to get sort of active participation from the two sides until after they 've phd b: well i could at least well , i 'm going to be out next week but i could try to look into like this uh cvs over the web . that seems to be a very popular way of people distributing changes and over , you know , multiple sites and things professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: so maybe if i can figure out how do that easily and then pass the information on to everybody so that it 's you know , as easy to do as possible and and people do n't it wo n't interfere with { comment } their regular work , then maybe that would be good . and i think we could use it for other things around here too . so . professor a: good . grad c: that 's cool . and if you 're interested in using cvs , i 've set it up here , phd b: oh great . grad c: so . phd b: ok . grad c: um j phd b: i used it a long time ago but it 's been a while so maybe i can ask you some questions . grad c: oh . so . i 'll be away tomorrow and monday but i 'll be back on tuesday or wednesday . phd b: ok . professor a: yeah . dave , the other thing , actually , is is this business about this wave form . maybe you and i can talk a little bit at some point about coming up with a better uh demonstration of the effects of reverberation for our web page , cuz uh the uh um i mean , actually the the uh it made a good good audio demonstration because when we could play that clip the the the really obvious difference is that you can hear two voices and in the second one and only hear phd b: maybe we could just like , talk into a cup . professor a: yeah . phd b: some good reverb . professor a: no , i mean , it sound it sounds pretty reverberant , but i mean you ca n't when you play it back in a room with a you know a big room , nobody can hear that difference really . grad c: yeah . professor a: they hear that it 's lower amplitude and they hear there 's a second voice , grad c: uh - huh . professor a: um but uh that actually that makes for a perfectly good demo because that 's a real obvious thing , that you hear two voices . phd b: but not of reverberation . professor a: yeah . grad c: a boom . professor a: well that that that 's ok . but for the the visual , just , you know , i 'd like to have uh uh , you know , the spectrogram again , grad c: yeah . professor a: because you 're you 're you 're visual uh abilities as a human being are so good you can pick out you know , you you look at the good one , you look at the cru the screwed up one , and and you can see the features in it without trying to @ @ phd b: i noticed that in the pictures . professor a: yeah . phd b: i thought `` hey , you know th `` i my initial thought was `` this is not too bad ! `` professor a: right . but you have to you know , if you look at it closely , you see `` well , here 's a place where this one has a big formant uh uh formant maj major formants here are are moving quite a bit . `` and then you look in the other one and they look practically flat . phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: so i mean you could that 's why i was thinking , in a section like that , you could take a look look at just that part of the spectrogram and you could say `` oh yeah . this this really distorted it quite a bit . `` phd b: yeah . the main thing that struck me in looking at those two spectrograms was the difference in the high frequencies . it looked like for the one that was farther away , you know , it really everything was attenuated professor a: right . phd b: and i mean that was the main visual thing that i noticed . professor a: right . but it 's it 's uh so . yeah . so there are clearly are spectral effects . since you 're getting all this indirect energy , then a lot of it does have have uh reduced high frequencies . but um the other thing is the temporal courses of things really are changed , and and uh we want to show that , in some obvious way . the reason i put the wave forms in there was because uh they they do look quite different . uh . and so i thought `` oh , this is good . `` but i i just uh after after uh they were put in there i did n't really look at them anymore , cuz i just they were different . so i want something that has a is a more interesting explanation for why they 're different . um . grad c: oh . so maybe we can just substitute one of these wave forms and um then do some kind of zoom in on the spectrogram on an interesting area . professor a: something like that . yeah . grad c: uh - huh . professor a: the other thing that we had in there that i did n't like was that um the most obvious characteristic of the difference uh when you listen to it is that there 's a second voice , and the the the the the uh cuts that we have there actually do n't correspond to the full wave form . it 's just the first i think there was something where he was having some trouble getting so much in , or . i i forget the reason behind it . but it it 's um it 's the first six seconds or something of it and it 's in the seventh or eighth second or something where @ @ the second voice comes in . so we we would like to actually see the voice coming in , too , i think , since that 's the most obvious thing when you listen to it . grad c: mm - hmm . professor a: so . um . phd f: uh , yeah . yeah . i brought some i do n't know if some figures here . well . i start we started to work on spectral subtraction . and um the preliminary results were very bad . professor a: uh - huh . phd f: so the thing that we did is just to add spectral subtraction before this , the wall uh process , which contains lda on - line normalization . and it hurts uh a lot . professor a: uh - huh . phd f: and so we started to look at at um things like this , which is , well , it 's yeah . so you have the c - zero parameters for one uh italian utterance . phd d: you can @ @ . phd f: and i plotted this for two channels . channel zero is the close mic microphone , and channel one is the distant microphone . and it 's perfectly synchronized , so . and the sentence contain only one word , which is `` due `` and it ca n't clearly be seen . where where is it ? professor a: uh - huh . phd f: where is the word ? phd b: this is this is , grad e: hmm . phd b: oh , a plot of c - zero , phd f: so . phd b: the energy . phd f: this is a plot of c - zero , uh when we do n't use spectral substraction , and when there is no on - line normalization . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: so . there is just some filtering with the lda and and some downsampling , upsampling . phd b: c - zero is the close talking ? phd f: so . phd b: uh the close channel ? phd f: yeah . yeah . phd b: and s channel one is the phd f: yeah . so c - zero is very clean , actually . phd b: yeah . phd f: uh then when we apply mean normalization it looks like the second figure , though it is not . which is good . well , the noise part is around zero professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: and and then the third figure is what happens when we apply mean normalization and variance normalization . so . what we can clearly see is that on the speech portion the two channel come becomes very close , but also what happens on the noisy portion is that the variance of the noise is professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: this is still being a plot of c - zero ? ok . phd f: yeah . this is still c - zero . phd b: can i ask um what does variance normalization do ? w what is the effect of that ? professor a: normalizes the variance . phd f: so it it yeah . phd b: i mean phd f: it normalized th the standard deviation . phd b: y yeah . phd f: so it phd b: no , i understand that , phd f: you you get an estimate of the standard deviation . phd b: but i mean phd f: that 's phd b: no . phd f: um phd b: no , i understand what it is , but i mean , what does it what 's what is phd f: yeah but . phd b: uh professor a: what 's the rationale ? phd b: we yeah . yeah . why why do it ? phd f: uh . professor a: well , i mean , because everything uh if you have a system based on gaussians , everything is based on means and variances . phd b: yeah . professor a: so if there 's an overall reason you know , it 's like uh if you were doing uh image processing and in some of the pictures you were looking at , uh there was a lot of light uh and and in some , there was low light , phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: you know , you would want to adjust for that in order to compare things . phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: and the variance is just sort of like the next moment , you know ? so uh what if um one set of pictures was taken uh so that throughout the course it was went through daylight and night uh um um ten times , another time it went thr i mean i is , you know , how how much how much vari phd b: oh , ok . professor a: or no . i guess a better example would be how much of the light was coming in from outside rather than artificial light . so if it was a lot if more was coming from outside , then there 'd be the bigger effect of the of the of the change in the so every mean every all all of the the parameters that you have , especially the variances , are going to be affected by the overall variance . phd b: oh , ok . uh - huh . professor a: and so , in principle , you if you remove that source , then , you know , you can phd b: i see . ok . so would the major effect is that you 're gon na get is by normalizing the means , professor a: that 's the first order but thing , phd b: but it may help first - order effects . professor a: but then the second order is is the variances phd b: and it may help to do the variance . ok . professor a: because , again , if you if you 're trying to distinguish between e and b phd b: ok . professor a: if it just so happens that the e 's were a more you know , were recorded when when the energy was was was larger or something , phd b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor a: or the variation in it was larger , uh than with the b 's , then this will be give you some some bias . phd b: professor a: so the it 's removing these sources of variability in the data that have nothing to do with the linguistic component . phd b: ok . phd f: mmm . phd b: gotcha . ok . sorry to interrupt . professor a: but the the uh but let me as ask ask you something . phd f: yep . and it and this professor a: i is if if you have a good voice activity detector , is n't is n't it gon na pull that out ? phd f: yeah . sure . if they are good . yeah . well what it it shows is that , yeah , perhaps a good voice activity detector is is good before on - line normalization and that 's what uh we 've already observed . but uh , yeah , voice activity detection is not an easy thing neither . phd b: but after you do this , after you do the variance normalization i mean . phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: i do n't know , it seems like this would be a lot easier than this signal to work with . phd f: yeah . so . what i notice is that , while i prefer to look at the second figure than at the third one , well , because you clearly see where speech is . professor a: yeah . phd b: yeah . phd f: but the problem is that on the speech portion , channel zero and channel one are more different than when you use variance normalization where channel zero and channel one become closer . professor a: right . phd b: but for the purposes of finding the speech phd f: and yeah , but here phd b: you 're more interested in the difference between the speech and the nonspeech , phd f: yeah . phd b: right ? phd f: yeah . so i think , yeah . for i th i think that it perhaps it shows that uh the parameters that the voice activity detector should use uh have to use should be different than the parameter that have to be used for speech recognition . professor a: yeah . so basically you want to reduce this effect . phd f: well , y professor a: so you can do that by doing the voi voice activity detection . you also could do it by spect uh spectral subtraction before the variance normalization , right ? phd f: yeah , but it 's not clear , yeah . professor a: so uh phd f: we so . well . it 's just to professor a: yeah . phd f: the the number that at that are here are recognition experiments on italian hm and mm with these two kinds of parameters . and , well , it 's better with variance normalization . professor a: yeah . yeah . so it does get better even though it looks ugly . phd f: uh professor a: ok . but does this have the voice activity detection in it ? phd f: yeah . professor a: ok . phd f: um . professor a: so . grad e: ok . phd b: where 's th phd f: but the fact is that the voice activity detector does n't work on channel one . so . yeah . professor a: uh - huh . phd b: where at what stage is the voice activity detector applied ? is it applied here or a after the variance normalization ? phd f: hmm ? professor a: spectral subtraction , i guess . phd b: or phd f: it 's applied before variance normalization . so it 's a good thing , phd b: oh . phd f: because i guess voice activity detection on this should could be worse . phd b: yeah . is it applied all the way back here ? phd f: it 's applied the um on , yeah , something like this , phd b: maybe that 's why it does n't work for channel one . phd f: yeah . perhaps , yeah . professor a: can i phd f: so we could perhaps do just mean normalization before vad . phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: mm - hmm . can i ask a , i mean a sort of top - level question , which is um `` if if most of what the ogi folk are working with is trying to integrate this other other uh spectral subtraction , why are we worrying about it ? `` phd f: mm - hmm . about ? spectral subtraction ? professor a: yeah . phd f: it 's just uh well it 's another they are trying to u to use the um the ericsson and we 're trying to use something something else . and . yeah , and also to understand what happens because professor a: ok . phd f: uh fff well . when we do spectral subtraction , actually , i think that this is the the two last figures . professor a: yeah . phd f: um . it seems that after spectral subtraction , speech is more emerging now uh than than before . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: speech is more what ? phd f: well , the difference between the energy of the speech and the energy of the n spectral subtrac subtracted noise portion is is larger . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: well , if you compare the first figure to this one actually the scale is not the same , but if you look at the the numbers um you clearly see that the difference between the c - zero of the speech and c - zero of the noise portion is larger . uh but what happens is that after spectral subtraction , you also increase the variance of this of c - zero . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: and so if you apply variance normalization on this , it completely sc screw everything . well . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: um . uh . yeah . so yeah . and what they did at ogi is just uh they do n't use on - line normalization , for the moment , on spectral subtraction and i think yeah . i think as soon as they will try on - line normalization there will be a problem . so yeah , we 're working on the same thing but i think uh with different different system and professor a: right . i mean , i the intellectually it 's interesting to work on things th uh one way or the other phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: but i 'm i 'm just wondering if um on the list of things that there are to do , if there are things that we wo n't do because we 've got two groups doing the same thing . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: um . that 's phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: um . just just asking . uh . i mean , it 's phd f: yeah , well , phd b: there also could be i mean . i can maybe see a reason f for both working on it too phd f: uh . phd b: if um you know , if if if you work on something else and and you 're waiting for them to give you spectral subtraction i mean it 's hard to know whether the effects that you get from the other experiments you do will carry over once you then bring in their spectral subtraction module . so it 's it 's almost like everything 's held up waiting for this one thing . i do n't know if that 's true or not , but i could see how phd f: mmm . professor a: i do n't know . phd b: maybe that 's what you were thinking . professor a: i do n't know . i mean , we still evidently have a latency reduction plan which which is n't quite what you 'd like it to be . that that seems like one prominent thing . and then uh were n't issues of of having a a second stream or something ? that was was it there was this business that , you know , we we could use up the full forty - eight hundred bits , and phd f: yeah . but i think they ' i think we want to work on this . they also want to work on this , so . uh . yeah . we we will try msg , but um , yeah . and they are t i think they want to work on the second stream also , but more with some kind of multi - band or , well , what they call trap or generalized trap . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: um . so . professor a: ok . do you remember when the next meeting is supposed to be ? the next uh phd f: it 's uh in june . professor a: in june . ok . phd f: yeah . professor a: yeah . um . yeah , the other thing is that you saw that that mail about uh the vad v a ds performing quite differently ? that that uh so um . this there was this experiment of uh `` what if we just take the baseline ? `` phd f: mmm . professor a: set uh of features , just mel cepstra , and you inc incorporate the different v a and it looks like the the french vad is actually uh better significantly better . phd b: improves the baseline ? professor a: yeah . yeah . phd f: yeah but i do n't know which vad they use . uh . if the use the small vad i th i think it 's on i think it 's easy to do better because it does n't work at all . so . i i do n't know which which one . it 's pratibha that that did this experiment . phd d: yeah . phd f: um . we should ask which vad she used . phd d: i do n't @ @ . he actually , i think that he say with the good vad of from ogi and with the alcatel vad . and the experiment was sometime better , sometime worse . phd f: yeah but i it 's uh i think you were talking about the other mail that used vad on the reference features . professor a: yes . phd f: yeah . professor a: and on that one , uh the french one is was better . phd d: i do n't remember . professor a: it was just better . phd d: mm - hmm . professor a: i mean it was enough better that that it would uh account for a fair amount of the difference between our performance , actually . phd f: mm - hmm . phd d: mm - hmm . professor a: so . uh . so if they have a better one , we should use it . i mean . you know ? it 's you ca n't work on everything . phd f: yeah . professor a: uh . uh . yeah . phd f: yeah , so we should find out if it 's really better . i mean if it the compared to the small or the big network . phd d: mm - hmm . professor a: yeah . phd f: and perhaps we can easily improve if if we put like mean normalization before the before the vad . because as as you 've mentioned . professor a: yeah . phd f: mmm . professor a: h hynek will be back in town uh the week after next , back back in the country . so . and start start organizing uh more visits and connections and so forth , phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and uh working towards june . phd f: yeah . phd d: also is stephane was thinking that maybe it was useful to f to think about uh voiced - unvoiced phd f: mm - hmm . phd d: to work uh here in voiced - unvoiced detection . phd f: yeah . yeah . phd d: and we are looking in the uh signal . phd f: yeah , my feeling is that um actually when we look at all the proposals , ev everybody is still using some kind of spectral envelope professor a: right . phd f: and um it 's professor a: no use of pitch uh basically . yeah . phd f: yeah , well , not pitch , but to look at the um fine at the at the high re high resolution spectrum . professor a: yeah . well , it phd f: so . we do n't necessarily want to find the the pitch of the of the sound but uh cuz i have a feeling that when we look when we look at the just at the envelope there is no way you can tell if it 's voiced and unvoiced , if there is some it 's it 's easy in clean speech because voiced sound are more low frequency and . so there would be more , professor a: yeah . phd f: uh there is the first formant , which is the larger and then voiced sound are more high frequencies cuz it 's frication and professor a: right . phd f: but , yeah . when you have noise there is no um if if you have a low frequency noise it could be taken for for voiced speech and . professor a: yeah , you can make these mistakes , phd f: so . professor a: but but phd b: is n't there some other phd f: s phd b: uh d phd f: so i think that it it would be good yeah , yeah , well , go go on . phd b: uh , i was just gon na say is n't there are n't are n't there lots of ideas for doing voice activity , or speech - nonspeech rather , { comment } um by looking at um , you know , uh i guess harmonics or looking across time professor a: well , i think he was talking about the voiced - unvoiced , though , phd f: mmm . professor a: right ? so , not the speech - nonspeech . phd b: yeah . well even with e professor a: yeah . phd b: uh w ah you know , uh even with the voiced - non voiced - unvoiced phd f: mmm . phd b: um i thought that you or somebody was talking about professor a: well . uh yeah . b we should let him finish what he w he was gon na say , phd f: so . phd b: ok . professor a: and phd b: so go ahead . phd f: um yeah , so yeah , i think if we try to develop a second stream well , there would be one stream that is the envelope and the second , it could be interesting to have that 's something that 's more related to the fine structure of the spectrum . and . yeah , so i do n't know . we were thinking about like using ideas from from larry saul , have a good voice detector , have a good , well , voiced - speech detector , that 's working on on the fft and uh professor a: u phd f: larry saul could be an idea . we were are thinking about just kind of uh taking the spectrum and computing the variance of of the high resolution spectrum and things like this . professor a: so u s u ok . so so many tell you something about that . uh we had a guy here some years ago who did some work on um making use of voicing information uh to help in reducing the noise . phd f: yeah ? professor a: so what he was doing is basically y you you do estimate the pitch . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and um you from that you you estimate or you estimate fine harmonic structure , whichev ei either way , it 's more or less the same . but uh the thing is that um you then can get rid of things that are not i if there is strong harmonic structure , you can throw away stuff that 's that 's non - harmonic . phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor a: and that that is another way of getting rid of part of the noise phd f: yeah . professor a: so um that 's something that is sort of finer , phd f: yeah . professor a: brings in a little more information than just spectral subtraction . um . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and he had some i mean , he did that sort of in combination with rasta . it was kind of like rasta was taking care of convolutional stuff phd f: mmm . professor a: and he was phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and and got some some decent results doing that . so that that 's another another way . but yeah , there 's there 's phd f: yeah . mmm . professor a: right . there 's all these cues . we 've actually back when chuck was here we did some voiced - unvoiced uh classification using a bunch of these , phd f: but professor a: and and uh works ok . obviously it 's not perfect but um phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: but the thing is that you ca n't given the constraints of this task , we ca n't , in a very nice way , feed forward to the recognizer the information the probabilistic information that you might get about whether it 's voiced or unvoiced , where w we ca n't you know affect the the uh distributions or anything . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: but we what we uh i guess we could yeah . phd b: did n't the head dude send around that message ? yeah , i think you sent us all a copy of the message , where he was saying that i i 'm not sure , exactly , what the gist of what he was saying , but something having to do with the voice activity detector and that it will that people should n't put their own in or something . it was gon na be a professor a: that but ok . so that 's voice activity detector as opposed to voicing detector . phd f: they did n't . professor a: so we 're talking about something a little different . phd f: mmm . phd b: oh , i 'm sorry . professor a: right ? phd b: i i missed that . phd f: mmm . professor a: i guess what you could do , maybe this would be w useful , if if you have if you view the second stream , yeah , before you before you do klt 's and so forth , if you do view it as probabilities , and if it 's an independent so , if it 's if it 's uh not so much envelope - based by fine - structure - based , uh looking at harmonicity or something like that , um if you get a probability from that information and then multiply it by you know , multiply by all the voiced outputs and all the unvoiced outputs , you know , then use that as the phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: uh take the log of that or uh pre pre uh pre - nonlinearity , phd f: yeah . i if professor a: uh and do the klt on the on on that , phd f: yeah . professor a: then that would that would i guess be uh a reasonable use of independent information . so maybe that 's what you meant . and then that would be phd f: yeah , well , i was not thinking this yeah , this could be an yeah so you mean have some kind of probability for the v the voicing professor a: r right . so you have a second neural net . phd f: and then use a tandem system professor a: it could be pretty small . yeah . if you have a tandem system and then you have some kind of it can be pretty small net phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: we used we d did some of this stuff . uh i i did , some years ago , phd f: yeah . professor a: and the and and you use the thing is to use information primarily that 's different as you say , it 's more fine - structure - based than than envelope - based phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: uh so then it you you you can pretty much guarantee it 's stuff that you 're not looking at very well with the other one , and uh then you only use for this one distinction . phd f: alright . professor a: and and so now you 've got a probability of the cases , and you 've got uh the probability of the finer uh categories on the other side . you multiply them where appropriate and uh um phd f: i see , yeah . mm - hmm . professor a: if they really are from independent information sources then they should have different kinds of errors phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and roughly independent errors , and it 's a good choice for phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . yeah . professor a: uh . yeah , that 's a good idea . phd f: yeah . because , yeah , well , spectral subtraction is good and we could u we could use the fine structure to to have a better estimate of the noise but still there is this issue with spectral subtraction that it seems to increase the variance of of of professor a: yeah . phd f: um well it 's this musical noise which is annoying if you d you do some kind of on - line normalization after . professor a: right . phd f: so . um . yeah . well . spectral subtraction and on - line normalization do n't seem to to go together very well . i professor a: or if you do a spectral subtraction do some spectral subtraction first and then do some on - line normalization then do some more spectral subtraction i mean , maybe maybe you can do it layers or something so it does n't does n't hurt too much or something . phd f: ah , yeah . professor a: but it but uh , anyway i think i was sort of arguing against myself there by giving that example phd f: yeah . professor a: uh i mean cuz i was already sort of suggesting that we should be careful about not spending too much time on exactly what they 're doing in fact if you get if you go into uh a uh harmonics - related thing it 's definitely going to be different than what they 're doing and uh uh phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: should have some interesting properties in noise . um . i know that when have people have done um sort of the obvious thing of taking uh your feature vector and adding in some variables which are pitch related or uh that it has n't my impression it has n't particularly helped . uh . has not . phd f: it it i has not , professor a: yeah . phd f: yeah . professor a: but i think uh that 's that 's a question for this uh you know extending the feature vector versus having different streams . phd f: oh . was it nois noisy condition ? the example that you you just professor a: and and it may not have been noisy conditions . phd f: yeah . professor a: yeah . i i do n't remember the example but it was it was on some darpa data and some years ago and so it probably was n't , actually phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . yeah . but we were thinking , we discussed with barry about this , and perhaps thinking we were thinking about some kind of sheet cheating experiment where we would use timit professor a: uh - huh . phd f: and see if giving the d uh , this voicing bit would help in in terms of uh frame classification . professor a: why do n't you why do n't you just do it with aurora ? phd f: mmm . professor a: just any i in in each in each frame phd f: yeah , but but b but we can not do the cheating , this cheating thing . grad e: we 're professor a: uh grad e: we need labels . professor a: why not ? phd f: well . cuz we do n't have well , for italian perhaps we have , but we do n't have this labeling for aurora . we just have a labeling with word models professor a: i see . phd f: but not for phonemes . phd d: not for foreigners . grad e: we do n't have frame frame level transcriptions . professor a: um . phd d: right . phd f: um . yeah . professor a: but you could i mean you can you can align so that it 's not perfect , but if you if you know what was said and phd b: but the problem is that their models are all word level models . so there 's no phone models that you get alignments for . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: oh . phd b: you so you could find out where the word boundaries are but that 's about it . professor a: yeah . i see . grad e: s but we could use uh the the noisy version that timit , which you know , is similar to the the noises found in the ti - digits um portion of aurora . phd f: yeah . noise , yeah . yeah , that 's right , yep . mmm . professor a: yeah . phd f: well , i guess i guess we can we can say that it will help , but i do n't know . if this voicing bit does n't help , uh , i think we do n't have to to work more about this because professor a: uh . phd f: uh . it 's just to know if it how much i it will help professor a: yeah . phd f: and to have an idea of how much we can gain . professor a: right . i mean in experiments that we did a long time ago phd f: mmm . professor a: and different ta it was probably resource management or something , um , i think you were getting something like still eight or nine percent error on the voicing , as i recall . and um , so um grad e: another person 's voice . professor a: what that said is that , sort of , left to its own devices , like without the a strong language model and so forth , that you would you would make significant number of errors just with your uh probabilistic machinery in deciding phd b: it also professor a: one oh phd b: yeah , the though i think uh there was one problem with that in that , you know , we used canonical mapping so our truth may not have really been true to the acoustics . professor a: uh - huh . grad e: hmm . phd b: so . phd f: mmm . professor a: yeah . well back twenty years ago when i did this voiced - unvoiced stuff , we were getting more like ninety - seven or ninety - eight percent correct in voicing . but that was speaker - dependent actually . we were doing training on a particular announcer phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and and getting a very good handle on the features . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and we did this complex feature selection thing where we looked at all the different possible features one could have for voicing and and and uh and exhaustively searched all size subsets and and uh for for that particular speaker and you 'd find you know the five or six features which really did well on them . phd b: wow ! phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and then doing doing all of that we could get down to two or three percent error . but that , again , was speaker - dependent with lots of feature selection phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and a very complex sort of thing . phd f: mmm . professor a: so i would i would believe that uh it was quite likely that um looking at envelope only , that we 'd be significantly worse than that . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: uh . phd f: and the all the the speechcorders ? what 's the idea behind ? cuz they they have to oh , they do n't even have to detect voiced spe speech ? professor a: the modern ones do n't do a a simple switch . phd f: they just work on the code book professor a: they work on the code book excitation . phd f: and find out the best excitation . professor a: yeah they do analysis - by - synthesis . they try they they try every every possible excitation they have in their code book and find the one that matches best . phd f: yeah . mmm . alright . yeah . so it would not help . professor a: yeah . grad e: hmm . professor a: uh . o k . phd b: can i just mention one other interesting thing ? professor a: yeah . phd b: um . one of the ideas that we had come up with last week for things to try to improve the system um . actually i i s we did n't i guess i wrote this in after the meeting b but the thought i had was um looking at the language model that 's used in the htk recognizer , which is basically just a big loop , grad e: mm - hmm . phd b: right ? so you it goes `` digit `` phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: and then that can be either go to silence or go to another digit , which that model would allow for the production of infinitely long sequences of digits , right ? professor a: right . phd b: so . i thought `` well i 'm gon na just look at the what actual digit strings do occur in the training data . `` professor a: right . phd b: and the interesting thing was it turns out that there are no sequences of two - long or three - long digit strings in any of the aurora training data . so it 's either one , four , five , six , uh up to eleven , and then it skips and then there 's some at sixteen . professor a: but what about the testing data ? phd b: um . i do n't know . i did n't look at the test data yet . professor a: yeah . i mean if there 's some testing data that has has has two or three phd b: so . yeah . but i just thought that was a little odd , that there were no two or three long sorry . so i i just for the heck of it , i made a little grammar which um , you know , had it 's separate path for each length digit string you could get . so there was a one - long path and there was a four - long and a five - long professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: and i tried that and it got way worse . there were lots of deletions . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: so it was you know , i i did n't have any weights of these paths or i did n't have anything like that . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: and i played with tweaking the word transition penalties a bunch , but i could n't go anywhere . professor a: hmm . phd b: but um . i thought `` well if i only allow `` yeah , i guess i should have looked at to see how often there was a mistake where a two - long or a three - long path was actually put out as a hypothesis . um . but . professor a: hmm . phd b: so to do that right you 'd probably want to have allow for them all but then have weightings and things . so . i just thought that was a interesting thing about the data . professor a: ok . so we 're gon na read some more digit strings i guess ? phd b: yeah . you want to go ahead , morgan ? professor a: sure .

eurospeech was taking place in denmark and the team was planning on submitting a paper to it . the team was also discussing how to best present the reverberation problem . the team thought that the spectral effects of the reverberation were very clear . they would have to figure out how to remove the sources of variance from the data to capture only the main voice .

what did the phd f think about eurospeech ? </s> phd b: ok . we 're on . grad e: hello ? professor a: ok , so uh had some interesting mail from uh dan ellis . actually , i think he he redirected it to everybody also so uh the pda mikes uh have a big bunch of energy at at uh five hertz uh where this came up was that uh i was showing off these wave forms that we have on the web and and uh i just sort of had n't noticed this , but that the major , major component in the wave in the second wave form in that pair of wave forms is actually the air conditioner . grad c: huh . professor a: so . so . i i have to be more careful about using that as a as a as a good illustration , uh , in fact it 's not , of uh of the effects of room reverberation . it is is n't a bad illustration of the effects of uh room noise . on on uh some mikes uh but so . and then we had this other discussion about um whether this affects the dynamic range , cuz i know , although we start off with thirty two bits , you end up with uh sixteen bits and you know , are we getting hurt there ? but uh dan is pretty confident that we 're not , that that quantization error is not is still not a significant factor there . so . so there was a question of whether we should change things here , whether we should change a capacitor on the input box for that or whether we should phd b: yeah , he suggested a smaller capacitor , right ? professor a: right . but then i had some other uh thing discussions with him phd b: for the p d professor a: and the feeling was once we start monk monkeying with that , uh , many other problems could ha happen . and additionally we we already have a lot of data that 's been collected with that , so . phd b: yeah . professor a: a simple thing to do is he he he has a i forget if it this was in that mail or in the following mail , but he has a a simple filter , a digital filter that he suggested . we just run over the data before we deal with it . phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: um the other thing that i do n't know the answer to , but when people are using feacalc here , uh whether they 're using it with the high - pass filter option or not . and i do n't know if anybody knows . grad e: um . i could go check . professor a: but . yeah . so when we 're doing all these things using our software there is um if it 's if it 's based on the rasta - plp program , which does both plp and rasta - plp um then uh there is an option there which then comes up through to feacalc which um allows you to do high - pass filtering and in general we like to do that , because of things like this and it 's it 's pretty it 's not a very severe filter . does n't affect speech frequencies , even pretty low speech frequencies , at all , but it 's phd b: what 's the cut - off frequency it used ? professor a: oh . i do n't know i wrote this a while ago phd b: is it like twenty ? professor a: something like that . phd b: yeah . professor a: yeah . i mean i think there 's some effect above twenty but it 's it 's it 's it 's mild . so , i mean it probably there 's probably some effect up to a hundred hertz or something but it 's it 's pretty mild . i do n't know in the in the strut implementation of the stuff is there a high - pass filter or a pre pre - emphasis or something in the phd f: uh . i think we use a pre - emphasis . yeah . yeah . professor a: so . we we we want to go and check that in i for anything that we 're going to use the p d a mike for . uh he says that there 's a pretty good roll off in the pzm mikes so we do n't need need to worry about them one way or the other but if we do make use of the cheap mikes , uh we want to be sure to do that that filtering before we process it . and then again if it 's uh depending on the option that the our our software is being run with , it 's it 's quite possible that 's already being taken care of . uh but i also have to pick a different picture to show the effects of reverberation . uh phd b: did somebody notice it during your talk ? professor a: uh no . phd b: huh . professor a: well . uh well . if they made output they were they were , you know they were nice . phd b: did n't say anything ? professor a: but . i mean the thing is it was since i was talking about reverberation and showing this thing that was noise , it was n't a good match , but it certainly was still uh an indication of the fact that you get noise with distant mikes . uh it 's just not a great example because not only is n't it reverberation but it 's a noise that we definitely know what to do . phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: so , i mean , it does n't take deep a new bold new methods to get rid of uh five hertz noise , so . phd b: yeah . professor a: um uh but . so it was it was a bad example in that way , but it 's it still is it 's the real thing that we did get out of the microphone at distance , so it was n't it w it w was n't wrong it was inappropriate . so . so uh , but uh , yeah , someone noticed it later pointed it out to me , and i went `` oh , man . why did n't i notice that ? `` phd b: hmm . professor a: um . so . um so i think we 'll change our our picture on the web , when we 're @ @ . one of the things i was i mean , i was trying to think about what what 's the best way to show the difference an and i had a couple of thoughts one was , that spectrogram that we show is o k , but the thing is the eyes uh and the the brain behind them are so good at picking out patterns from from noise that in first glance you look at them it does n't seem like it 's that bad uh because there 's many features that are still preserved . so one thing to do might be to just take a piece of the spec uh of the spectrogram where you can see that something looks different , an and blow it up , and have that be the part that 's just to show as well . you know . phd b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor a: i i some things are going to be hurt . um another , i was thinking of was um taking some spectral slices , like uh like we look at with the recognizer , and look at the spectrum or cepstrum that you get out of there , and the the uh , um , the reverberation uh does make it does change that . and so maybe maybe that would be more obvious . phd b: hmm . grad c: spectral slices ? professor a: yeah . grad c: w w what d what do you mean ? professor a: well , i mean um all the recognizers look at frames . so they they look at phd b: so like one instant in time . professor a: yeah , look at a grad c: ok . professor a: so it 's , yeah , at one point in time or uh twenty over twenty milliseconds or something , you have a spectrum or a cepstrum . grad c: ok . professor a: that 's what i meant by a slice . grad c: i see . professor a: yeah . and if you look at phd b: you could just you could just throw up , you know , uh the uh some mfcc feature vectors . you know , one from one , one from the other , and then , you know , you can look and see how different the numbers are . professor a: right . well , that 's why i saying either well , either spectrum or cepstrum phd b: i 'm just kidding . professor a: but but i think the thing is you wan na phd b: i do n't mean a graph . i mean the actual numbers . professor a: oh . i see . oh . that would be lovely , yeah . phd b: yeah . `` see how different these sequences of numbers are ? `` professor a: yeah . or i could just add them up and get a different total . phd b: yeah . it 's not the square . professor a: ok . uh . what else wh what 's what else is going on ? phd f: uh , yeah . yeah , at first i had a remark why i am wondering why the pda is always so far . i mean we are always meeting at the beginning of the table and the pda 's there . professor a: uh . i guess cuz we have n't wanted to move it . we we could we could move us , phd f: yeah ? professor a: and . phd f: ok . grad e: that 's right . phd f: well , anyway . um . yeah , so . uh . since the last meeting we 've we 've tried to put together um the clean low - pass um downsampling , upsampling , i mean , uh the new filter that 's replacing the lda filters , and also the um delay issue so that we considered th the the delay issue on the for the on - line normalization . mmm . so we 've put together all this and then we have results that are not um very impressive . well , there is no real improvement . professor a: but it 's not wer worse and it 's better better latency , phd f: it 's not professor a: right ? phd f: yeah . yeah . well . actually it 's better . it seems better when we look at the mismatched case but i think we are like like cheated here by the th this problem that uh in some cases when you modify slight slightly modify the initial condition you end up completely somewhere air somewhere else in the in the space , the parameters . professor a: yeah . phd f: so . well . the other system are for instance . for italian is at seventy - eight percent recognition rate on the mismatch , and this new system has eighty - nine . but i do n't think it indicates something , really . i do n't i do n't think it means that the new system is more robust professor a: uh - huh . phd f: or it 's simply the fact that well . professor a: well , the test would be if you then tried it on one of the other test sets , if if it was phd f: y professor a: right . so this was italian , right ? phd f: yeah . yeah . professor a: so then if you take your changes phd f: it 's similar for other test sets professor a: and then phd f: but i mean from this se seventy - eight um percent recognition rate system , i could change the transition probabilities for the the first hmm and it will end up to eighty - nine also . professor a: uh - huh . phd f: by using point five instead of point six , point four as in the the htk script . professor a: uh - huh . yeah . phd f: so . well . that 's phd b: yeah . yeah i looked at um looked at the results when stephane did that phd f: well . eh uh phd b: and it 's it 's really wo really happens . phd f: this really happens . phd b: i mean th the only difference is you change the self - loop transition probability by a tenth of a percent phd f: yeah . professor a: yeah . phd b: and it causes ten percent difference in the word error rate . professor a: a tenth of a per cent . phd b: yeah . from point phd f: even tenth of a percent ? phd b: i i 'm sorry phd f: well , we tried we tried point one , phd b: f for point from you change at point one phd f: yeah . professor a: oh ! phd b: and n not tenth of a percent , one tenth , phd f: hmm . professor a: yeah . phd b: alright ? um so from point five so from point six to point five and you get ten percent better . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: and it 's i think it 's what you basically hypothesized in the last meeting about uh it just being very phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: and i think you mentioned this in your email too it 's just very um phd f: mmm , yeah . phd b: you know get stuck in some local minimum and this thing throws you out of it i guess . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: well , what 's what are according to the rules what what are we supposed to do about the transition probabilities ? are they supposed to be point five or point six ? phd b: i think you 're not allowed to yeah . that 's supposed to be point six , for the self - loop . phd f: yeah . professor a: point it 's supposed to be point six . phd b: yeah . but changing it to point five i think is which gives you much better results , but that 's not allowed . professor a: but not allowed ? yeah . ok . phd b: yeah . phd f: yeah , but even if you use point five , i 'm not sure it will always give you the better results phd b: yeah . phd f: on other test set or it phd b: right . we only tested it on the the medium mismatch , phd f: on the other training set , i mean . phd b: right ? you said on the other cases you did n't notice phd f: yeah . but . i think , yeah . i think the reason is , yeah , i not i it was in my mail i think also , is the fact that the mismatch is trained only on the far microphone . well , in for the mismatched case everything is um using the far microphone training and testing , whereas for the highly mismatched , training is done on the close microphone so it 's it 's clean speech basically so you do n't have this problem of local minima probably and for the well - match , it 's a mix of close microphone and distant microphone and well . phd b: i did notice uh something phd f: so th i think the mismatch is the more difficult for the training part . phd b: somebody , i think it was morgan , suggested at the last meeting that i actually count to see how many parameters and how many frames . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: and there are uh almost one point eight million frames of training data and less than forty thousand parameters in the baseline system . professor a: hmm . phd f: yeah . phd b: so it 's very , very few parameters compared to how much training data . professor a: well . yes . phd d: mm - hmm . professor a: so . and that that says that we could have lots more parameters actually . phd b: yeah . yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: i did one quick experiment just to make sure i had everything worked out and i just uh f for most of the um for for all of the digit models , they end up at three mixtures per state . and so i just did a quick experiment , where i changed it so it went to four and um it it it did n't have a r any significant effect at the uh medium mismatch and high mismatch cases and it had it was just barely significant for the well - matched better . uh so i 'm r gon na run that again but um with many more uh mixtures per state . professor a: yeah . cuz at forty thou i mean you could you could have uh yeah , easily four times as many parameters . phd b: mm - hmm . and i think also just seeing what we saw uh in terms of the expected duration of the silence model ? when we did this tweaking of the self - loop ? the silence model expected duration was really different . phd f: yeah . phd b: and so in the case where um it had a better score , the silence model expected duration was much longer . phd f: yeah . phd b: so it was like it was a better match . i think you know if we make a better silence model i think that will help a lot too um for a lot of these cases so but one one thing i i wanted to check out before i increased the um number of mixtures per state was uh in their default training script they do an initial set of three re - estimations and then they built the silence model and then they do seven iterations then the add mixtures and they do another seven then they add mixtures then they do a final set of seven and they quit . seven seems like a lot to me and it also makes the experiments go take a really long time i mean to do one turn - around of the well matched case takes like a day . professor a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd b: and so you know in trying to run these experiments i notice , you know , it 's difficult to find machines , you know , compute the run on . and so one of the things i did was i compiled htk for the linux machines professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: cuz we have this one from ibm that 's got like five processors in it ? professor a: right . phd b: and so now i 'm you can run stuff on that and that really helps a lot because now we 've got you know , extra machines that we can use for compute . and if i 'm do running an experiment right now where i 'm changing the number of iterations ? from seven to three ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor a: yeah . phd b: just to see how it affects the baseline system . and so if we can get away with just doing three , we can do many more experiments more quickly . and if it 's not a a huge difference from running with seven iterations , um , you know , we should be able to get a lot more experiments done . phd f: hmm . phd b: and so . i 'll let you know what what happens with that . but if we can you know , run all of these back - ends f with many fewer iterations and on linux boxes we should be able to get a lot more experimenting done . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: so . so i wanted to experiment with cutting down the number of iterations before i increased the number of gaussians . professor a: right . sorry . so um , how 's it going on the phd f: um . professor a: so . you you did some things . they did n't improve things in a way that convinced you you 'd substantially improved anything . phd f: yeah . professor a: but they 're not making things worse and we have reduced latency , right ? phd f: yeah . but actually um actually it seems to do a little bit worse for the well - matched case and we just noticed that yeah , actually the way the final score is computed is quite funny . it 's not a mean of word error rate . it 's not a weighted mean of word error rate , it 's a weighted mean of improvements . professor a: uh - huh . phd f: so . which means that actually the weight on the well - matched is well i well what what what happened is that if you have a small improvement or a small if on the well - matched case it will have uh huge influence on the improvement compared to the reference because the reference system is is is quite good for for the well - ma well - matched case also . phd b: so it it weights the improvement on the well - matched case really heavily compared to the improvement on the other cases ? phd f: no , but it 's the weighting of the of the improvement not of the error rate . phd b: yeah . yeah , and it 's hard to improve on the on the best case , cuz it 's already so good , right ? phd f: yeah but what i mean is that you can have a huge improvement on the h hmk 's , uh like five percent uh absolute , and this will not affect the final score almost uh this will almost not affect the final score because this improvement because the improvement uh relative to the the baseline is small professor a: so they do improvement in terms of uh accuracy ? rather than word error rate ? phd f: uh . uh improvement ? professor a: so phd f: no , it 's compared to the word er it 's improvement on the word error rate , professor a: ok . phd f: yeah . sorry . professor a: so if you have uh ten percent error and you get five percent absolute uh improvement then that 's fifty percent . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: ok . so what you 're saying then is that if it 's something that has a small word error rate , then uh a even a relatively small improvement on it , in absolute terms , will show up as quite quite large in this . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: is that what you 're saying ? phd f: yeah . professor a: yes . phd f: yeah . professor a: ok . but yeah that 's that 's it 's the notion of relative improvement . word error rate . phd f: yeah . sure , but when we think about the weighting , which is point five , point three , point two , it 's on absolute on on relative figures , professor a: yeah . phd f: not professor a: yeah . phd f: so when we look at this error rate professor a: no . that 's why i 've been saying we should be looking at word error rate uh and and not not at at accuracies . phd f: uh mmm , yeah . mmm , yeah . professor a: it 's phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: i mean uh we probably should have standardized on that all the way through . it 's just phd b: well . phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean , it 's not it 's not that different , right ? i mean , just subtract the accuracy . professor a: yeah but you 're but when you look at the numbers , your sense of the relative size of things is quite different . phd b: i mean oh . oh , i see . yeah . professor a: if you had ninety percent uh correct and five percent , five over ninety does n't look like it 's a big difference , but five over ten is is big . phd b: mm - hmm . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: so just when we were looking at a lot of numbers and getting sense of what was important . phd b: i see . i see . yeah . that makes sense . professor a: um . phd f: mmm . professor a: um . phd f: well anyway uh . so . yeah . so it hurts a little bit on the well - match and yeah . professor a: what 's a little bit ? like phd f: like , it 's difficult to say because again um i 'm not sure i have the um phd b: hey morgan ? do you remember that signif program that we used to use for testing signi ? is that still valid ? i i 've been using that . professor a: yeah . yeah , it was actually updated . phd b: ok . professor a: uh . jeff updated it some years ago phd b: oh , it was . oh , i shoul professor a: and and uh cleaned it up made some things better in it . so . phd b: ok . i should find that new one . i just use my old one from ninety - two or whatever professor a: yeah , i 'm sure it 's not that different but but he he uh he was a little more rigorous , as i recall . phd b: ok . phd f: right . so it 's around , like , point five . no , point six { comment } uh percent absolute on italian professor a: worse . phd f: worse , yep . professor a: out of what ? i mean . s phd f: uh well we start from ninety - four point sixty - four , and we go to ninety - four point o four . professor a: uh - huh . so that 's six six point th phd f: uh . phd b: ninety - three point six four , right ? is the baseline . phd f: oh , no , i 've ninety - four . oh , the baseline , you mean . phd b: yeah . phd f: well i do n't i 'm not talking about the baseline here . phd b: oh . oh . i 'm sorry . phd f: i uh my baseline is the submitted system . phd b: ah ! ok . ah , ah . phd f: hmm . professor a: yeah . phd b: sorry . phd f: oh yeah . for finnish , we start to ninety - three point eight - four and we go to ninety - three point seventy - four . and for spanish we are we were at ninety - five point o five and we go to ninety - three - s point sixty one . professor a: ok , so we are getting hurt somewhat . phd f: so . professor a: and is that wh what do you know what piece you 've done several changes here . uh , do you know what pie phd f: yeah . i guess i guess it 's it 's the filter . because nnn , well uh we do n't have complete result , but the filter so the filter with the shorter delay hurts on italian well - matched , which and , yeah . and the other things , like um downsampling , upsampling , do n't seem to hurt and the new on - line normalization , neither . phd b: i 'm phd f: so . phd b: i 'm really confused about something . if we saw that making a small change like , you know , a tenth , to the self - loop had a huge effect , can we really make any conclusions about differences in this stuff ? phd f: mm - hmm . yeah that 's th yeah . phd b: i mean , especially when they 're this small . i mean . phd f: i think we can be completely fooled by this thing , but i do n't know . professor a: well , yeah . phd f: so . there is first this thing , and then the yeah , i computed the um like , the confidence level on the different test sets . and for the well - matched they are around um point six uh percent . for the mismatched they are around like let 's say one point five percent . and for the well - m uh hm they are also around one point five . professor a: but ok , so you these these degradations you were talking about were on the well - matched case phd f: so . professor a: uh . do the does the new filter make things uh better or worse for the other cases ? phd f: yeah . but . uh . about the same . it does n't hurt . yeah . professor a: does n't hurt , but does n't get a little better , or something . phd f: no . professor a: no . ok , so um i guess the argument one might make is that , `` yeah , if you looked at one of these cases and you jiggle something and it changes then uh you 're not quite sure what to make of it . but when you look across a bunch of these and there 's some some pattern , um i mean , so eh h here 's all the if if in all these different cases it never gets better , and there 's significant number of cases where it gets worse , then you 're probably hurting things , i would say . so um i mean at the very least that would be a reasonably prediction of what would happen with with a different test set , that you 're not jiggling things with . so i guess the question is if you can do better than this . if you can if we can approximate the old numbers while still keeping the latency down . phd f: mmm . yeah . professor a: uh , so . um . what i was asking , though , is uh are what 's what 's the level of communication with uh the o g i gang now , about this and phd f: well , we are exchanging mail as soon as we we have significant results . professor a: yeah . phd f: um . yeah . for the moment , they are working on integrating the um spectral subtraction apparently from ericsson . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: um . yeah . and so . yeah . we are working on our side on other things like uh also trying a sup spectral subtraction but of of our own , i mean , another spectral substraction . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: um . yeah . so i think it 's it 's ok . it 's going professor a: is there any further discussion about this this idea of of having some sort of source code control ? phd f: yeah . well . for the moment they 're uh everybody 's quite um there is this eurospeech deadline , so . professor a: i see . phd f: um . and . yeah . but yeah . as soon as we have something that 's significant and that 's better than than what was submitted , we will fix fix the system and but we 've not discussed it it it this yet , yeah . professor a: yeah . sounds like a great idea but but i think that that um he 's saying people are sort of scrambling for a eurospeech deadline . phd f: mmm . professor a: but that 'll be uh , uh done in a week . so , maybe after this next one . phd f: yeah . phd b: wow ! already a week ! man ! professor a: yeah . phd b: you 're right . that 's amazing . professor a: yeah . anybo - anybody in the in this group do doing anything for eurospeech ? phd f: s professor a: or , is that what is that phd f: yeah we are we are trying to to do something with the meeting recorder digits , professor a: right . phd f: and but yeah . yeah . and the good thing is that there is this first deadline , professor a: yeah . phd f: and , well , some people from ogi are working on a paper for this , but there is also the um special session about th aurora which is uh which has an extended deadline . so . the deadline is in may . professor a: for uh oh , for eurospeech ? phd f: for th yeah . professor a: oh ! phd f: so f only for the experiments on aurora . so it it 's good , professor a: oh , a special dispensation . phd f: yeah . professor a: that 's great . phd b: mm - hmm . where is eurospeech this year ? phd f: it 's in denmark . professor a: aalborg aalborg uh phd b: oh . professor a: so the deadline when 's the deadline ? when 's the deadline ? phd f: hmm ? i think it 's the thirteenth of may . professor a: that 's great ! it 's great . so we should definitely get something in for that . phd f: yeah . professor a: but on meeting digits , maybe there 's maybe . phd f: yeah . professor a: maybe . phd f: so it would be for the first deadline . professor a: yeah . phd f: nnn . professor a: yeah . so , i mean , i i think that you could certainly start looking at at the issue uh but but uh i think it 's probably , on s from what stephane is saying , it 's it 's unlikely to get sort of active participation from the two sides until after they 've phd b: well i could at least well , i 'm going to be out next week but i could try to look into like this uh cvs over the web . that seems to be a very popular way of people distributing changes and over , you know , multiple sites and things professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: so maybe if i can figure out how do that easily and then pass the information on to everybody so that it 's you know , as easy to do as possible and and people do n't it wo n't interfere with { comment } their regular work , then maybe that would be good . and i think we could use it for other things around here too . so . professor a: good . grad c: that 's cool . and if you 're interested in using cvs , i 've set it up here , phd b: oh great . grad c: so . phd b: ok . grad c: um j phd b: i used it a long time ago but it 's been a while so maybe i can ask you some questions . grad c: oh . so . i 'll be away tomorrow and monday but i 'll be back on tuesday or wednesday . phd b: ok . professor a: yeah . dave , the other thing , actually , is is this business about this wave form . maybe you and i can talk a little bit at some point about coming up with a better uh demonstration of the effects of reverberation for our web page , cuz uh the uh um i mean , actually the the uh it made a good good audio demonstration because when we could play that clip the the the really obvious difference is that you can hear two voices and in the second one and only hear phd b: maybe we could just like , talk into a cup . professor a: yeah . phd b: some good reverb . professor a: no , i mean , it sound it sounds pretty reverberant , but i mean you ca n't when you play it back in a room with a you know a big room , nobody can hear that difference really . grad c: yeah . professor a: they hear that it 's lower amplitude and they hear there 's a second voice , grad c: uh - huh . professor a: um but uh that actually that makes for a perfectly good demo because that 's a real obvious thing , that you hear two voices . phd b: but not of reverberation . professor a: yeah . grad c: a boom . professor a: well that that that 's ok . but for the the visual , just , you know , i 'd like to have uh uh , you know , the spectrogram again , grad c: yeah . professor a: because you 're you 're you 're visual uh abilities as a human being are so good you can pick out you know , you you look at the good one , you look at the cru the screwed up one , and and you can see the features in it without trying to @ @ phd b: i noticed that in the pictures . professor a: yeah . phd b: i thought `` hey , you know th `` i my initial thought was `` this is not too bad ! `` professor a: right . but you have to you know , if you look at it closely , you see `` well , here 's a place where this one has a big formant uh uh formant maj major formants here are are moving quite a bit . `` and then you look in the other one and they look practically flat . phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: so i mean you could that 's why i was thinking , in a section like that , you could take a look look at just that part of the spectrogram and you could say `` oh yeah . this this really distorted it quite a bit . `` phd b: yeah . the main thing that struck me in looking at those two spectrograms was the difference in the high frequencies . it looked like for the one that was farther away , you know , it really everything was attenuated professor a: right . phd b: and i mean that was the main visual thing that i noticed . professor a: right . but it 's it 's uh so . yeah . so there are clearly are spectral effects . since you 're getting all this indirect energy , then a lot of it does have have uh reduced high frequencies . but um the other thing is the temporal courses of things really are changed , and and uh we want to show that , in some obvious way . the reason i put the wave forms in there was because uh they they do look quite different . uh . and so i thought `` oh , this is good . `` but i i just uh after after uh they were put in there i did n't really look at them anymore , cuz i just they were different . so i want something that has a is a more interesting explanation for why they 're different . um . grad c: oh . so maybe we can just substitute one of these wave forms and um then do some kind of zoom in on the spectrogram on an interesting area . professor a: something like that . yeah . grad c: uh - huh . professor a: the other thing that we had in there that i did n't like was that um the most obvious characteristic of the difference uh when you listen to it is that there 's a second voice , and the the the the the uh cuts that we have there actually do n't correspond to the full wave form . it 's just the first i think there was something where he was having some trouble getting so much in , or . i i forget the reason behind it . but it it 's um it 's the first six seconds or something of it and it 's in the seventh or eighth second or something where @ @ the second voice comes in . so we we would like to actually see the voice coming in , too , i think , since that 's the most obvious thing when you listen to it . grad c: mm - hmm . professor a: so . um . phd f: uh , yeah . yeah . i brought some i do n't know if some figures here . well . i start we started to work on spectral subtraction . and um the preliminary results were very bad . professor a: uh - huh . phd f: so the thing that we did is just to add spectral subtraction before this , the wall uh process , which contains lda on - line normalization . and it hurts uh a lot . professor a: uh - huh . phd f: and so we started to look at at um things like this , which is , well , it 's yeah . so you have the c - zero parameters for one uh italian utterance . phd d: you can @ @ . phd f: and i plotted this for two channels . channel zero is the close mic microphone , and channel one is the distant microphone . and it 's perfectly synchronized , so . and the sentence contain only one word , which is `` due `` and it ca n't clearly be seen . where where is it ? professor a: uh - huh . phd f: where is the word ? phd b: this is this is , grad e: hmm . phd b: oh , a plot of c - zero , phd f: so . phd b: the energy . phd f: this is a plot of c - zero , uh when we do n't use spectral substraction , and when there is no on - line normalization . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: so . there is just some filtering with the lda and and some downsampling , upsampling . phd b: c - zero is the close talking ? phd f: so . phd b: uh the close channel ? phd f: yeah . yeah . phd b: and s channel one is the phd f: yeah . so c - zero is very clean , actually . phd b: yeah . phd f: uh then when we apply mean normalization it looks like the second figure , though it is not . which is good . well , the noise part is around zero professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: and and then the third figure is what happens when we apply mean normalization and variance normalization . so . what we can clearly see is that on the speech portion the two channel come becomes very close , but also what happens on the noisy portion is that the variance of the noise is professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: this is still being a plot of c - zero ? ok . phd f: yeah . this is still c - zero . phd b: can i ask um what does variance normalization do ? w what is the effect of that ? professor a: normalizes the variance . phd f: so it it yeah . phd b: i mean phd f: it normalized th the standard deviation . phd b: y yeah . phd f: so it phd b: no , i understand that , phd f: you you get an estimate of the standard deviation . phd b: but i mean phd f: that 's phd b: no . phd f: um phd b: no , i understand what it is , but i mean , what does it what 's what is phd f: yeah but . phd b: uh professor a: what 's the rationale ? phd b: we yeah . yeah . why why do it ? phd f: uh . professor a: well , i mean , because everything uh if you have a system based on gaussians , everything is based on means and variances . phd b: yeah . professor a: so if there 's an overall reason you know , it 's like uh if you were doing uh image processing and in some of the pictures you were looking at , uh there was a lot of light uh and and in some , there was low light , phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: you know , you would want to adjust for that in order to compare things . phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: and the variance is just sort of like the next moment , you know ? so uh what if um one set of pictures was taken uh so that throughout the course it was went through daylight and night uh um um ten times , another time it went thr i mean i is , you know , how how much how much vari phd b: oh , ok . professor a: or no . i guess a better example would be how much of the light was coming in from outside rather than artificial light . so if it was a lot if more was coming from outside , then there 'd be the bigger effect of the of the of the change in the so every mean every all all of the the parameters that you have , especially the variances , are going to be affected by the overall variance . phd b: oh , ok . uh - huh . professor a: and so , in principle , you if you remove that source , then , you know , you can phd b: i see . ok . so would the major effect is that you 're gon na get is by normalizing the means , professor a: that 's the first order but thing , phd b: but it may help first - order effects . professor a: but then the second order is is the variances phd b: and it may help to do the variance . ok . professor a: because , again , if you if you 're trying to distinguish between e and b phd b: ok . professor a: if it just so happens that the e 's were a more you know , were recorded when when the energy was was was larger or something , phd b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor a: or the variation in it was larger , uh than with the b 's , then this will be give you some some bias . phd b: professor a: so the it 's removing these sources of variability in the data that have nothing to do with the linguistic component . phd b: ok . phd f: mmm . phd b: gotcha . ok . sorry to interrupt . professor a: but the the uh but let me as ask ask you something . phd f: yep . and it and this professor a: i is if if you have a good voice activity detector , is n't is n't it gon na pull that out ? phd f: yeah . sure . if they are good . yeah . well what it it shows is that , yeah , perhaps a good voice activity detector is is good before on - line normalization and that 's what uh we 've already observed . but uh , yeah , voice activity detection is not an easy thing neither . phd b: but after you do this , after you do the variance normalization i mean . phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: i do n't know , it seems like this would be a lot easier than this signal to work with . phd f: yeah . so . what i notice is that , while i prefer to look at the second figure than at the third one , well , because you clearly see where speech is . professor a: yeah . phd b: yeah . phd f: but the problem is that on the speech portion , channel zero and channel one are more different than when you use variance normalization where channel zero and channel one become closer . professor a: right . phd b: but for the purposes of finding the speech phd f: and yeah , but here phd b: you 're more interested in the difference between the speech and the nonspeech , phd f: yeah . phd b: right ? phd f: yeah . so i think , yeah . for i th i think that it perhaps it shows that uh the parameters that the voice activity detector should use uh have to use should be different than the parameter that have to be used for speech recognition . professor a: yeah . so basically you want to reduce this effect . phd f: well , y professor a: so you can do that by doing the voi voice activity detection . you also could do it by spect uh spectral subtraction before the variance normalization , right ? phd f: yeah , but it 's not clear , yeah . professor a: so uh phd f: we so . well . it 's just to professor a: yeah . phd f: the the number that at that are here are recognition experiments on italian hm and mm with these two kinds of parameters . and , well , it 's better with variance normalization . professor a: yeah . yeah . so it does get better even though it looks ugly . phd f: uh professor a: ok . but does this have the voice activity detection in it ? phd f: yeah . professor a: ok . phd f: um . professor a: so . grad e: ok . phd b: where 's th phd f: but the fact is that the voice activity detector does n't work on channel one . so . yeah . professor a: uh - huh . phd b: where at what stage is the voice activity detector applied ? is it applied here or a after the variance normalization ? phd f: hmm ? professor a: spectral subtraction , i guess . phd b: or phd f: it 's applied before variance normalization . so it 's a good thing , phd b: oh . phd f: because i guess voice activity detection on this should could be worse . phd b: yeah . is it applied all the way back here ? phd f: it 's applied the um on , yeah , something like this , phd b: maybe that 's why it does n't work for channel one . phd f: yeah . perhaps , yeah . professor a: can i phd f: so we could perhaps do just mean normalization before vad . phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: mm - hmm . can i ask a , i mean a sort of top - level question , which is um `` if if most of what the ogi folk are working with is trying to integrate this other other uh spectral subtraction , why are we worrying about it ? `` phd f: mm - hmm . about ? spectral subtraction ? professor a: yeah . phd f: it 's just uh well it 's another they are trying to u to use the um the ericsson and we 're trying to use something something else . and . yeah , and also to understand what happens because professor a: ok . phd f: uh fff well . when we do spectral subtraction , actually , i think that this is the the two last figures . professor a: yeah . phd f: um . it seems that after spectral subtraction , speech is more emerging now uh than than before . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: speech is more what ? phd f: well , the difference between the energy of the speech and the energy of the n spectral subtrac subtracted noise portion is is larger . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: well , if you compare the first figure to this one actually the scale is not the same , but if you look at the the numbers um you clearly see that the difference between the c - zero of the speech and c - zero of the noise portion is larger . uh but what happens is that after spectral subtraction , you also increase the variance of this of c - zero . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: and so if you apply variance normalization on this , it completely sc screw everything . well . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: um . uh . yeah . so yeah . and what they did at ogi is just uh they do n't use on - line normalization , for the moment , on spectral subtraction and i think yeah . i think as soon as they will try on - line normalization there will be a problem . so yeah , we 're working on the same thing but i think uh with different different system and professor a: right . i mean , i the intellectually it 's interesting to work on things th uh one way or the other phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: but i 'm i 'm just wondering if um on the list of things that there are to do , if there are things that we wo n't do because we 've got two groups doing the same thing . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: um . that 's phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: um . just just asking . uh . i mean , it 's phd f: yeah , well , phd b: there also could be i mean . i can maybe see a reason f for both working on it too phd f: uh . phd b: if um you know , if if if you work on something else and and you 're waiting for them to give you spectral subtraction i mean it 's hard to know whether the effects that you get from the other experiments you do will carry over once you then bring in their spectral subtraction module . so it 's it 's almost like everything 's held up waiting for this one thing . i do n't know if that 's true or not , but i could see how phd f: mmm . professor a: i do n't know . phd b: maybe that 's what you were thinking . professor a: i do n't know . i mean , we still evidently have a latency reduction plan which which is n't quite what you 'd like it to be . that that seems like one prominent thing . and then uh were n't issues of of having a a second stream or something ? that was was it there was this business that , you know , we we could use up the full forty - eight hundred bits , and phd f: yeah . but i think they ' i think we want to work on this . they also want to work on this , so . uh . yeah . we we will try msg , but um , yeah . and they are t i think they want to work on the second stream also , but more with some kind of multi - band or , well , what they call trap or generalized trap . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: um . so . professor a: ok . do you remember when the next meeting is supposed to be ? the next uh phd f: it 's uh in june . professor a: in june . ok . phd f: yeah . professor a: yeah . um . yeah , the other thing is that you saw that that mail about uh the vad v a ds performing quite differently ? that that uh so um . this there was this experiment of uh `` what if we just take the baseline ? `` phd f: mmm . professor a: set uh of features , just mel cepstra , and you inc incorporate the different v a and it looks like the the french vad is actually uh better significantly better . phd b: improves the baseline ? professor a: yeah . yeah . phd f: yeah but i do n't know which vad they use . uh . if the use the small vad i th i think it 's on i think it 's easy to do better because it does n't work at all . so . i i do n't know which which one . it 's pratibha that that did this experiment . phd d: yeah . phd f: um . we should ask which vad she used . phd d: i do n't @ @ . he actually , i think that he say with the good vad of from ogi and with the alcatel vad . and the experiment was sometime better , sometime worse . phd f: yeah but i it 's uh i think you were talking about the other mail that used vad on the reference features . professor a: yes . phd f: yeah . professor a: and on that one , uh the french one is was better . phd d: i do n't remember . professor a: it was just better . phd d: mm - hmm . professor a: i mean it was enough better that that it would uh account for a fair amount of the difference between our performance , actually . phd f: mm - hmm . phd d: mm - hmm . professor a: so . uh . so if they have a better one , we should use it . i mean . you know ? it 's you ca n't work on everything . phd f: yeah . professor a: uh . uh . yeah . phd f: yeah , so we should find out if it 's really better . i mean if it the compared to the small or the big network . phd d: mm - hmm . professor a: yeah . phd f: and perhaps we can easily improve if if we put like mean normalization before the before the vad . because as as you 've mentioned . professor a: yeah . phd f: mmm . professor a: h hynek will be back in town uh the week after next , back back in the country . so . and start start organizing uh more visits and connections and so forth , phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and uh working towards june . phd f: yeah . phd d: also is stephane was thinking that maybe it was useful to f to think about uh voiced - unvoiced phd f: mm - hmm . phd d: to work uh here in voiced - unvoiced detection . phd f: yeah . yeah . phd d: and we are looking in the uh signal . phd f: yeah , my feeling is that um actually when we look at all the proposals , ev everybody is still using some kind of spectral envelope professor a: right . phd f: and um it 's professor a: no use of pitch uh basically . yeah . phd f: yeah , well , not pitch , but to look at the um fine at the at the high re high resolution spectrum . professor a: yeah . well , it phd f: so . we do n't necessarily want to find the the pitch of the of the sound but uh cuz i have a feeling that when we look when we look at the just at the envelope there is no way you can tell if it 's voiced and unvoiced , if there is some it 's it 's easy in clean speech because voiced sound are more low frequency and . so there would be more , professor a: yeah . phd f: uh there is the first formant , which is the larger and then voiced sound are more high frequencies cuz it 's frication and professor a: right . phd f: but , yeah . when you have noise there is no um if if you have a low frequency noise it could be taken for for voiced speech and . professor a: yeah , you can make these mistakes , phd f: so . professor a: but but phd b: is n't there some other phd f: s phd b: uh d phd f: so i think that it it would be good yeah , yeah , well , go go on . phd b: uh , i was just gon na say is n't there are n't are n't there lots of ideas for doing voice activity , or speech - nonspeech rather , { comment } um by looking at um , you know , uh i guess harmonics or looking across time professor a: well , i think he was talking about the voiced - unvoiced , though , phd f: mmm . professor a: right ? so , not the speech - nonspeech . phd b: yeah . well even with e professor a: yeah . phd b: uh w ah you know , uh even with the voiced - non voiced - unvoiced phd f: mmm . phd b: um i thought that you or somebody was talking about professor a: well . uh yeah . b we should let him finish what he w he was gon na say , phd f: so . phd b: ok . professor a: and phd b: so go ahead . phd f: um yeah , so yeah , i think if we try to develop a second stream well , there would be one stream that is the envelope and the second , it could be interesting to have that 's something that 's more related to the fine structure of the spectrum . and . yeah , so i do n't know . we were thinking about like using ideas from from larry saul , have a good voice detector , have a good , well , voiced - speech detector , that 's working on on the fft and uh professor a: u phd f: larry saul could be an idea . we were are thinking about just kind of uh taking the spectrum and computing the variance of of the high resolution spectrum and things like this . professor a: so u s u ok . so so many tell you something about that . uh we had a guy here some years ago who did some work on um making use of voicing information uh to help in reducing the noise . phd f: yeah ? professor a: so what he was doing is basically y you you do estimate the pitch . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and um you from that you you estimate or you estimate fine harmonic structure , whichev ei either way , it 's more or less the same . but uh the thing is that um you then can get rid of things that are not i if there is strong harmonic structure , you can throw away stuff that 's that 's non - harmonic . phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor a: and that that is another way of getting rid of part of the noise phd f: yeah . professor a: so um that 's something that is sort of finer , phd f: yeah . professor a: brings in a little more information than just spectral subtraction . um . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and he had some i mean , he did that sort of in combination with rasta . it was kind of like rasta was taking care of convolutional stuff phd f: mmm . professor a: and he was phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and and got some some decent results doing that . so that that 's another another way . but yeah , there 's there 's phd f: yeah . mmm . professor a: right . there 's all these cues . we 've actually back when chuck was here we did some voiced - unvoiced uh classification using a bunch of these , phd f: but professor a: and and uh works ok . obviously it 's not perfect but um phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: but the thing is that you ca n't given the constraints of this task , we ca n't , in a very nice way , feed forward to the recognizer the information the probabilistic information that you might get about whether it 's voiced or unvoiced , where w we ca n't you know affect the the uh distributions or anything . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: but we what we uh i guess we could yeah . phd b: did n't the head dude send around that message ? yeah , i think you sent us all a copy of the message , where he was saying that i i 'm not sure , exactly , what the gist of what he was saying , but something having to do with the voice activity detector and that it will that people should n't put their own in or something . it was gon na be a professor a: that but ok . so that 's voice activity detector as opposed to voicing detector . phd f: they did n't . professor a: so we 're talking about something a little different . phd f: mmm . phd b: oh , i 'm sorry . professor a: right ? phd b: i i missed that . phd f: mmm . professor a: i guess what you could do , maybe this would be w useful , if if you have if you view the second stream , yeah , before you before you do klt 's and so forth , if you do view it as probabilities , and if it 's an independent so , if it 's if it 's uh not so much envelope - based by fine - structure - based , uh looking at harmonicity or something like that , um if you get a probability from that information and then multiply it by you know , multiply by all the voiced outputs and all the unvoiced outputs , you know , then use that as the phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: uh take the log of that or uh pre pre uh pre - nonlinearity , phd f: yeah . i if professor a: uh and do the klt on the on on that , phd f: yeah . professor a: then that would that would i guess be uh a reasonable use of independent information . so maybe that 's what you meant . and then that would be phd f: yeah , well , i was not thinking this yeah , this could be an yeah so you mean have some kind of probability for the v the voicing professor a: r right . so you have a second neural net . phd f: and then use a tandem system professor a: it could be pretty small . yeah . if you have a tandem system and then you have some kind of it can be pretty small net phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: we used we d did some of this stuff . uh i i did , some years ago , phd f: yeah . professor a: and the and and you use the thing is to use information primarily that 's different as you say , it 's more fine - structure - based than than envelope - based phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: uh so then it you you you can pretty much guarantee it 's stuff that you 're not looking at very well with the other one , and uh then you only use for this one distinction . phd f: alright . professor a: and and so now you 've got a probability of the cases , and you 've got uh the probability of the finer uh categories on the other side . you multiply them where appropriate and uh um phd f: i see , yeah . mm - hmm . professor a: if they really are from independent information sources then they should have different kinds of errors phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and roughly independent errors , and it 's a good choice for phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . yeah . professor a: uh . yeah , that 's a good idea . phd f: yeah . because , yeah , well , spectral subtraction is good and we could u we could use the fine structure to to have a better estimate of the noise but still there is this issue with spectral subtraction that it seems to increase the variance of of of professor a: yeah . phd f: um well it 's this musical noise which is annoying if you d you do some kind of on - line normalization after . professor a: right . phd f: so . um . yeah . well . spectral subtraction and on - line normalization do n't seem to to go together very well . i professor a: or if you do a spectral subtraction do some spectral subtraction first and then do some on - line normalization then do some more spectral subtraction i mean , maybe maybe you can do it layers or something so it does n't does n't hurt too much or something . phd f: ah , yeah . professor a: but it but uh , anyway i think i was sort of arguing against myself there by giving that example phd f: yeah . professor a: uh i mean cuz i was already sort of suggesting that we should be careful about not spending too much time on exactly what they 're doing in fact if you get if you go into uh a uh harmonics - related thing it 's definitely going to be different than what they 're doing and uh uh phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: should have some interesting properties in noise . um . i know that when have people have done um sort of the obvious thing of taking uh your feature vector and adding in some variables which are pitch related or uh that it has n't my impression it has n't particularly helped . uh . has not . phd f: it it i has not , professor a: yeah . phd f: yeah . professor a: but i think uh that 's that 's a question for this uh you know extending the feature vector versus having different streams . phd f: oh . was it nois noisy condition ? the example that you you just professor a: and and it may not have been noisy conditions . phd f: yeah . professor a: yeah . i i do n't remember the example but it was it was on some darpa data and some years ago and so it probably was n't , actually phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . yeah . but we were thinking , we discussed with barry about this , and perhaps thinking we were thinking about some kind of sheet cheating experiment where we would use timit professor a: uh - huh . phd f: and see if giving the d uh , this voicing bit would help in in terms of uh frame classification . professor a: why do n't you why do n't you just do it with aurora ? phd f: mmm . professor a: just any i in in each in each frame phd f: yeah , but but b but we can not do the cheating , this cheating thing . grad e: we 're professor a: uh grad e: we need labels . professor a: why not ? phd f: well . cuz we do n't have well , for italian perhaps we have , but we do n't have this labeling for aurora . we just have a labeling with word models professor a: i see . phd f: but not for phonemes . phd d: not for foreigners . grad e: we do n't have frame frame level transcriptions . professor a: um . phd d: right . phd f: um . yeah . professor a: but you could i mean you can you can align so that it 's not perfect , but if you if you know what was said and phd b: but the problem is that their models are all word level models . so there 's no phone models that you get alignments for . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: oh . phd b: you so you could find out where the word boundaries are but that 's about it . professor a: yeah . i see . grad e: s but we could use uh the the noisy version that timit , which you know , is similar to the the noises found in the ti - digits um portion of aurora . phd f: yeah . noise , yeah . yeah , that 's right , yep . mmm . professor a: yeah . phd f: well , i guess i guess we can we can say that it will help , but i do n't know . if this voicing bit does n't help , uh , i think we do n't have to to work more about this because professor a: uh . phd f: uh . it 's just to know if it how much i it will help professor a: yeah . phd f: and to have an idea of how much we can gain . professor a: right . i mean in experiments that we did a long time ago phd f: mmm . professor a: and different ta it was probably resource management or something , um , i think you were getting something like still eight or nine percent error on the voicing , as i recall . and um , so um grad e: another person 's voice . professor a: what that said is that , sort of , left to its own devices , like without the a strong language model and so forth , that you would you would make significant number of errors just with your uh probabilistic machinery in deciding phd b: it also professor a: one oh phd b: yeah , the though i think uh there was one problem with that in that , you know , we used canonical mapping so our truth may not have really been true to the acoustics . professor a: uh - huh . grad e: hmm . phd b: so . phd f: mmm . professor a: yeah . well back twenty years ago when i did this voiced - unvoiced stuff , we were getting more like ninety - seven or ninety - eight percent correct in voicing . but that was speaker - dependent actually . we were doing training on a particular announcer phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and and getting a very good handle on the features . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and we did this complex feature selection thing where we looked at all the different possible features one could have for voicing and and and uh and exhaustively searched all size subsets and and uh for for that particular speaker and you 'd find you know the five or six features which really did well on them . phd b: wow ! phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and then doing doing all of that we could get down to two or three percent error . but that , again , was speaker - dependent with lots of feature selection phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and a very complex sort of thing . phd f: mmm . professor a: so i would i would believe that uh it was quite likely that um looking at envelope only , that we 'd be significantly worse than that . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: uh . phd f: and the all the the speechcorders ? what 's the idea behind ? cuz they they have to oh , they do n't even have to detect voiced spe speech ? professor a: the modern ones do n't do a a simple switch . phd f: they just work on the code book professor a: they work on the code book excitation . phd f: and find out the best excitation . professor a: yeah they do analysis - by - synthesis . they try they they try every every possible excitation they have in their code book and find the one that matches best . phd f: yeah . mmm . alright . yeah . so it would not help . professor a: yeah . grad e: hmm . professor a: uh . o k . phd b: can i just mention one other interesting thing ? professor a: yeah . phd b: um . one of the ideas that we had come up with last week for things to try to improve the system um . actually i i s we did n't i guess i wrote this in after the meeting b but the thought i had was um looking at the language model that 's used in the htk recognizer , which is basically just a big loop , grad e: mm - hmm . phd b: right ? so you it goes `` digit `` phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: and then that can be either go to silence or go to another digit , which that model would allow for the production of infinitely long sequences of digits , right ? professor a: right . phd b: so . i thought `` well i 'm gon na just look at the what actual digit strings do occur in the training data . `` professor a: right . phd b: and the interesting thing was it turns out that there are no sequences of two - long or three - long digit strings in any of the aurora training data . so it 's either one , four , five , six , uh up to eleven , and then it skips and then there 's some at sixteen . professor a: but what about the testing data ? phd b: um . i do n't know . i did n't look at the test data yet . professor a: yeah . i mean if there 's some testing data that has has has two or three phd b: so . yeah . but i just thought that was a little odd , that there were no two or three long sorry . so i i just for the heck of it , i made a little grammar which um , you know , had it 's separate path for each length digit string you could get . so there was a one - long path and there was a four - long and a five - long professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: and i tried that and it got way worse . there were lots of deletions . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: so it was you know , i i did n't have any weights of these paths or i did n't have anything like that . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: and i played with tweaking the word transition penalties a bunch , but i could n't go anywhere . professor a: hmm . phd b: but um . i thought `` well if i only allow `` yeah , i guess i should have looked at to see how often there was a mistake where a two - long or a three - long path was actually put out as a hypothesis . um . but . professor a: hmm . phd b: so to do that right you 'd probably want to have allow for them all but then have weightings and things . so . i just thought that was a interesting thing about the data . professor a: ok . so we 're gon na read some more digit strings i guess ? phd b: yeah . you want to go ahead , morgan ? professor a: sure .

phd f explained that they were trying to do something with meeting recorder digits for eurospeech . some people on ogi were working on a paper due on the 13th of may .

what did phd f think about spectral subtraction ? </s> phd b: ok . we 're on . grad e: hello ? professor a: ok , so uh had some interesting mail from uh dan ellis . actually , i think he he redirected it to everybody also so uh the pda mikes uh have a big bunch of energy at at uh five hertz uh where this came up was that uh i was showing off these wave forms that we have on the web and and uh i just sort of had n't noticed this , but that the major , major component in the wave in the second wave form in that pair of wave forms is actually the air conditioner . grad c: huh . professor a: so . so . i i have to be more careful about using that as a as a as a good illustration , uh , in fact it 's not , of uh of the effects of room reverberation . it is is n't a bad illustration of the effects of uh room noise . on on uh some mikes uh but so . and then we had this other discussion about um whether this affects the dynamic range , cuz i know , although we start off with thirty two bits , you end up with uh sixteen bits and you know , are we getting hurt there ? but uh dan is pretty confident that we 're not , that that quantization error is not is still not a significant factor there . so . so there was a question of whether we should change things here , whether we should change a capacitor on the input box for that or whether we should phd b: yeah , he suggested a smaller capacitor , right ? professor a: right . but then i had some other uh thing discussions with him phd b: for the p d professor a: and the feeling was once we start monk monkeying with that , uh , many other problems could ha happen . and additionally we we already have a lot of data that 's been collected with that , so . phd b: yeah . professor a: a simple thing to do is he he he has a i forget if it this was in that mail or in the following mail , but he has a a simple filter , a digital filter that he suggested . we just run over the data before we deal with it . phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: um the other thing that i do n't know the answer to , but when people are using feacalc here , uh whether they 're using it with the high - pass filter option or not . and i do n't know if anybody knows . grad e: um . i could go check . professor a: but . yeah . so when we 're doing all these things using our software there is um if it 's if it 's based on the rasta - plp program , which does both plp and rasta - plp um then uh there is an option there which then comes up through to feacalc which um allows you to do high - pass filtering and in general we like to do that , because of things like this and it 's it 's pretty it 's not a very severe filter . does n't affect speech frequencies , even pretty low speech frequencies , at all , but it 's phd b: what 's the cut - off frequency it used ? professor a: oh . i do n't know i wrote this a while ago phd b: is it like twenty ? professor a: something like that . phd b: yeah . professor a: yeah . i mean i think there 's some effect above twenty but it 's it 's it 's it 's mild . so , i mean it probably there 's probably some effect up to a hundred hertz or something but it 's it 's pretty mild . i do n't know in the in the strut implementation of the stuff is there a high - pass filter or a pre pre - emphasis or something in the phd f: uh . i think we use a pre - emphasis . yeah . yeah . professor a: so . we we we want to go and check that in i for anything that we 're going to use the p d a mike for . uh he says that there 's a pretty good roll off in the pzm mikes so we do n't need need to worry about them one way or the other but if we do make use of the cheap mikes , uh we want to be sure to do that that filtering before we process it . and then again if it 's uh depending on the option that the our our software is being run with , it 's it 's quite possible that 's already being taken care of . uh but i also have to pick a different picture to show the effects of reverberation . uh phd b: did somebody notice it during your talk ? professor a: uh no . phd b: huh . professor a: well . uh well . if they made output they were they were , you know they were nice . phd b: did n't say anything ? professor a: but . i mean the thing is it was since i was talking about reverberation and showing this thing that was noise , it was n't a good match , but it certainly was still uh an indication of the fact that you get noise with distant mikes . uh it 's just not a great example because not only is n't it reverberation but it 's a noise that we definitely know what to do . phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: so , i mean , it does n't take deep a new bold new methods to get rid of uh five hertz noise , so . phd b: yeah . professor a: um uh but . so it was it was a bad example in that way , but it 's it still is it 's the real thing that we did get out of the microphone at distance , so it was n't it w it w was n't wrong it was inappropriate . so . so uh , but uh , yeah , someone noticed it later pointed it out to me , and i went `` oh , man . why did n't i notice that ? `` phd b: hmm . professor a: um . so . um so i think we 'll change our our picture on the web , when we 're @ @ . one of the things i was i mean , i was trying to think about what what 's the best way to show the difference an and i had a couple of thoughts one was , that spectrogram that we show is o k , but the thing is the eyes uh and the the brain behind them are so good at picking out patterns from from noise that in first glance you look at them it does n't seem like it 's that bad uh because there 's many features that are still preserved . so one thing to do might be to just take a piece of the spec uh of the spectrogram where you can see that something looks different , an and blow it up , and have that be the part that 's just to show as well . you know . phd b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor a: i i some things are going to be hurt . um another , i was thinking of was um taking some spectral slices , like uh like we look at with the recognizer , and look at the spectrum or cepstrum that you get out of there , and the the uh , um , the reverberation uh does make it does change that . and so maybe maybe that would be more obvious . phd b: hmm . grad c: spectral slices ? professor a: yeah . grad c: w w what d what do you mean ? professor a: well , i mean um all the recognizers look at frames . so they they look at phd b: so like one instant in time . professor a: yeah , look at a grad c: ok . professor a: so it 's , yeah , at one point in time or uh twenty over twenty milliseconds or something , you have a spectrum or a cepstrum . grad c: ok . professor a: that 's what i meant by a slice . grad c: i see . professor a: yeah . and if you look at phd b: you could just you could just throw up , you know , uh the uh some mfcc feature vectors . you know , one from one , one from the other , and then , you know , you can look and see how different the numbers are . professor a: right . well , that 's why i saying either well , either spectrum or cepstrum phd b: i 'm just kidding . professor a: but but i think the thing is you wan na phd b: i do n't mean a graph . i mean the actual numbers . professor a: oh . i see . oh . that would be lovely , yeah . phd b: yeah . `` see how different these sequences of numbers are ? `` professor a: yeah . or i could just add them up and get a different total . phd b: yeah . it 's not the square . professor a: ok . uh . what else wh what 's what else is going on ? phd f: uh , yeah . yeah , at first i had a remark why i am wondering why the pda is always so far . i mean we are always meeting at the beginning of the table and the pda 's there . professor a: uh . i guess cuz we have n't wanted to move it . we we could we could move us , phd f: yeah ? professor a: and . phd f: ok . grad e: that 's right . phd f: well , anyway . um . yeah , so . uh . since the last meeting we 've we 've tried to put together um the clean low - pass um downsampling , upsampling , i mean , uh the new filter that 's replacing the lda filters , and also the um delay issue so that we considered th the the delay issue on the for the on - line normalization . mmm . so we 've put together all this and then we have results that are not um very impressive . well , there is no real improvement . professor a: but it 's not wer worse and it 's better better latency , phd f: it 's not professor a: right ? phd f: yeah . yeah . well . actually it 's better . it seems better when we look at the mismatched case but i think we are like like cheated here by the th this problem that uh in some cases when you modify slight slightly modify the initial condition you end up completely somewhere air somewhere else in the in the space , the parameters . professor a: yeah . phd f: so . well . the other system are for instance . for italian is at seventy - eight percent recognition rate on the mismatch , and this new system has eighty - nine . but i do n't think it indicates something , really . i do n't i do n't think it means that the new system is more robust professor a: uh - huh . phd f: or it 's simply the fact that well . professor a: well , the test would be if you then tried it on one of the other test sets , if if it was phd f: y professor a: right . so this was italian , right ? phd f: yeah . yeah . professor a: so then if you take your changes phd f: it 's similar for other test sets professor a: and then phd f: but i mean from this se seventy - eight um percent recognition rate system , i could change the transition probabilities for the the first hmm and it will end up to eighty - nine also . professor a: uh - huh . phd f: by using point five instead of point six , point four as in the the htk script . professor a: uh - huh . yeah . phd f: so . well . that 's phd b: yeah . yeah i looked at um looked at the results when stephane did that phd f: well . eh uh phd b: and it 's it 's really wo really happens . phd f: this really happens . phd b: i mean th the only difference is you change the self - loop transition probability by a tenth of a percent phd f: yeah . professor a: yeah . phd b: and it causes ten percent difference in the word error rate . professor a: a tenth of a per cent . phd b: yeah . from point phd f: even tenth of a percent ? phd b: i i 'm sorry phd f: well , we tried we tried point one , phd b: f for point from you change at point one phd f: yeah . professor a: oh ! phd b: and n not tenth of a percent , one tenth , phd f: hmm . professor a: yeah . phd b: alright ? um so from point five so from point six to point five and you get ten percent better . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: and it 's i think it 's what you basically hypothesized in the last meeting about uh it just being very phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: and i think you mentioned this in your email too it 's just very um phd f: mmm , yeah . phd b: you know get stuck in some local minimum and this thing throws you out of it i guess . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: well , what 's what are according to the rules what what are we supposed to do about the transition probabilities ? are they supposed to be point five or point six ? phd b: i think you 're not allowed to yeah . that 's supposed to be point six , for the self - loop . phd f: yeah . professor a: point it 's supposed to be point six . phd b: yeah . but changing it to point five i think is which gives you much better results , but that 's not allowed . professor a: but not allowed ? yeah . ok . phd b: yeah . phd f: yeah , but even if you use point five , i 'm not sure it will always give you the better results phd b: yeah . phd f: on other test set or it phd b: right . we only tested it on the the medium mismatch , phd f: on the other training set , i mean . phd b: right ? you said on the other cases you did n't notice phd f: yeah . but . i think , yeah . i think the reason is , yeah , i not i it was in my mail i think also , is the fact that the mismatch is trained only on the far microphone . well , in for the mismatched case everything is um using the far microphone training and testing , whereas for the highly mismatched , training is done on the close microphone so it 's it 's clean speech basically so you do n't have this problem of local minima probably and for the well - match , it 's a mix of close microphone and distant microphone and well . phd b: i did notice uh something phd f: so th i think the mismatch is the more difficult for the training part . phd b: somebody , i think it was morgan , suggested at the last meeting that i actually count to see how many parameters and how many frames . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: and there are uh almost one point eight million frames of training data and less than forty thousand parameters in the baseline system . professor a: hmm . phd f: yeah . phd b: so it 's very , very few parameters compared to how much training data . professor a: well . yes . phd d: mm - hmm . professor a: so . and that that says that we could have lots more parameters actually . phd b: yeah . yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: i did one quick experiment just to make sure i had everything worked out and i just uh f for most of the um for for all of the digit models , they end up at three mixtures per state . and so i just did a quick experiment , where i changed it so it went to four and um it it it did n't have a r any significant effect at the uh medium mismatch and high mismatch cases and it had it was just barely significant for the well - matched better . uh so i 'm r gon na run that again but um with many more uh mixtures per state . professor a: yeah . cuz at forty thou i mean you could you could have uh yeah , easily four times as many parameters . phd b: mm - hmm . and i think also just seeing what we saw uh in terms of the expected duration of the silence model ? when we did this tweaking of the self - loop ? the silence model expected duration was really different . phd f: yeah . phd b: and so in the case where um it had a better score , the silence model expected duration was much longer . phd f: yeah . phd b: so it was like it was a better match . i think you know if we make a better silence model i think that will help a lot too um for a lot of these cases so but one one thing i i wanted to check out before i increased the um number of mixtures per state was uh in their default training script they do an initial set of three re - estimations and then they built the silence model and then they do seven iterations then the add mixtures and they do another seven then they add mixtures then they do a final set of seven and they quit . seven seems like a lot to me and it also makes the experiments go take a really long time i mean to do one turn - around of the well matched case takes like a day . professor a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd b: and so you know in trying to run these experiments i notice , you know , it 's difficult to find machines , you know , compute the run on . and so one of the things i did was i compiled htk for the linux machines professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: cuz we have this one from ibm that 's got like five processors in it ? professor a: right . phd b: and so now i 'm you can run stuff on that and that really helps a lot because now we 've got you know , extra machines that we can use for compute . and if i 'm do running an experiment right now where i 'm changing the number of iterations ? from seven to three ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor a: yeah . phd b: just to see how it affects the baseline system . and so if we can get away with just doing three , we can do many more experiments more quickly . and if it 's not a a huge difference from running with seven iterations , um , you know , we should be able to get a lot more experiments done . phd f: hmm . phd b: and so . i 'll let you know what what happens with that . but if we can you know , run all of these back - ends f with many fewer iterations and on linux boxes we should be able to get a lot more experimenting done . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: so . so i wanted to experiment with cutting down the number of iterations before i increased the number of gaussians . professor a: right . sorry . so um , how 's it going on the phd f: um . professor a: so . you you did some things . they did n't improve things in a way that convinced you you 'd substantially improved anything . phd f: yeah . professor a: but they 're not making things worse and we have reduced latency , right ? phd f: yeah . but actually um actually it seems to do a little bit worse for the well - matched case and we just noticed that yeah , actually the way the final score is computed is quite funny . it 's not a mean of word error rate . it 's not a weighted mean of word error rate , it 's a weighted mean of improvements . professor a: uh - huh . phd f: so . which means that actually the weight on the well - matched is well i well what what what happened is that if you have a small improvement or a small if on the well - matched case it will have uh huge influence on the improvement compared to the reference because the reference system is is is quite good for for the well - ma well - matched case also . phd b: so it it weights the improvement on the well - matched case really heavily compared to the improvement on the other cases ? phd f: no , but it 's the weighting of the of the improvement not of the error rate . phd b: yeah . yeah , and it 's hard to improve on the on the best case , cuz it 's already so good , right ? phd f: yeah but what i mean is that you can have a huge improvement on the h hmk 's , uh like five percent uh absolute , and this will not affect the final score almost uh this will almost not affect the final score because this improvement because the improvement uh relative to the the baseline is small professor a: so they do improvement in terms of uh accuracy ? rather than word error rate ? phd f: uh . uh improvement ? professor a: so phd f: no , it 's compared to the word er it 's improvement on the word error rate , professor a: ok . phd f: yeah . sorry . professor a: so if you have uh ten percent error and you get five percent absolute uh improvement then that 's fifty percent . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: ok . so what you 're saying then is that if it 's something that has a small word error rate , then uh a even a relatively small improvement on it , in absolute terms , will show up as quite quite large in this . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: is that what you 're saying ? phd f: yeah . professor a: yes . phd f: yeah . professor a: ok . but yeah that 's that 's it 's the notion of relative improvement . word error rate . phd f: yeah . sure , but when we think about the weighting , which is point five , point three , point two , it 's on absolute on on relative figures , professor a: yeah . phd f: not professor a: yeah . phd f: so when we look at this error rate professor a: no . that 's why i 've been saying we should be looking at word error rate uh and and not not at at accuracies . phd f: uh mmm , yeah . mmm , yeah . professor a: it 's phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: i mean uh we probably should have standardized on that all the way through . it 's just phd b: well . phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean , it 's not it 's not that different , right ? i mean , just subtract the accuracy . professor a: yeah but you 're but when you look at the numbers , your sense of the relative size of things is quite different . phd b: i mean oh . oh , i see . yeah . professor a: if you had ninety percent uh correct and five percent , five over ninety does n't look like it 's a big difference , but five over ten is is big . phd b: mm - hmm . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: so just when we were looking at a lot of numbers and getting sense of what was important . phd b: i see . i see . yeah . that makes sense . professor a: um . phd f: mmm . professor a: um . phd f: well anyway uh . so . yeah . so it hurts a little bit on the well - match and yeah . professor a: what 's a little bit ? like phd f: like , it 's difficult to say because again um i 'm not sure i have the um phd b: hey morgan ? do you remember that signif program that we used to use for testing signi ? is that still valid ? i i 've been using that . professor a: yeah . yeah , it was actually updated . phd b: ok . professor a: uh . jeff updated it some years ago phd b: oh , it was . oh , i shoul professor a: and and uh cleaned it up made some things better in it . so . phd b: ok . i should find that new one . i just use my old one from ninety - two or whatever professor a: yeah , i 'm sure it 's not that different but but he he uh he was a little more rigorous , as i recall . phd b: ok . phd f: right . so it 's around , like , point five . no , point six { comment } uh percent absolute on italian professor a: worse . phd f: worse , yep . professor a: out of what ? i mean . s phd f: uh well we start from ninety - four point sixty - four , and we go to ninety - four point o four . professor a: uh - huh . so that 's six six point th phd f: uh . phd b: ninety - three point six four , right ? is the baseline . phd f: oh , no , i 've ninety - four . oh , the baseline , you mean . phd b: yeah . phd f: well i do n't i 'm not talking about the baseline here . phd b: oh . oh . i 'm sorry . phd f: i uh my baseline is the submitted system . phd b: ah ! ok . ah , ah . phd f: hmm . professor a: yeah . phd b: sorry . phd f: oh yeah . for finnish , we start to ninety - three point eight - four and we go to ninety - three point seventy - four . and for spanish we are we were at ninety - five point o five and we go to ninety - three - s point sixty one . professor a: ok , so we are getting hurt somewhat . phd f: so . professor a: and is that wh what do you know what piece you 've done several changes here . uh , do you know what pie phd f: yeah . i guess i guess it 's it 's the filter . because nnn , well uh we do n't have complete result , but the filter so the filter with the shorter delay hurts on italian well - matched , which and , yeah . and the other things , like um downsampling , upsampling , do n't seem to hurt and the new on - line normalization , neither . phd b: i 'm phd f: so . phd b: i 'm really confused about something . if we saw that making a small change like , you know , a tenth , to the self - loop had a huge effect , can we really make any conclusions about differences in this stuff ? phd f: mm - hmm . yeah that 's th yeah . phd b: i mean , especially when they 're this small . i mean . phd f: i think we can be completely fooled by this thing , but i do n't know . professor a: well , yeah . phd f: so . there is first this thing , and then the yeah , i computed the um like , the confidence level on the different test sets . and for the well - matched they are around um point six uh percent . for the mismatched they are around like let 's say one point five percent . and for the well - m uh hm they are also around one point five . professor a: but ok , so you these these degradations you were talking about were on the well - matched case phd f: so . professor a: uh . do the does the new filter make things uh better or worse for the other cases ? phd f: yeah . but . uh . about the same . it does n't hurt . yeah . professor a: does n't hurt , but does n't get a little better , or something . phd f: no . professor a: no . ok , so um i guess the argument one might make is that , `` yeah , if you looked at one of these cases and you jiggle something and it changes then uh you 're not quite sure what to make of it . but when you look across a bunch of these and there 's some some pattern , um i mean , so eh h here 's all the if if in all these different cases it never gets better , and there 's significant number of cases where it gets worse , then you 're probably hurting things , i would say . so um i mean at the very least that would be a reasonably prediction of what would happen with with a different test set , that you 're not jiggling things with . so i guess the question is if you can do better than this . if you can if we can approximate the old numbers while still keeping the latency down . phd f: mmm . yeah . professor a: uh , so . um . what i was asking , though , is uh are what 's what 's the level of communication with uh the o g i gang now , about this and phd f: well , we are exchanging mail as soon as we we have significant results . professor a: yeah . phd f: um . yeah . for the moment , they are working on integrating the um spectral subtraction apparently from ericsson . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: um . yeah . and so . yeah . we are working on our side on other things like uh also trying a sup spectral subtraction but of of our own , i mean , another spectral substraction . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: um . yeah . so i think it 's it 's ok . it 's going professor a: is there any further discussion about this this idea of of having some sort of source code control ? phd f: yeah . well . for the moment they 're uh everybody 's quite um there is this eurospeech deadline , so . professor a: i see . phd f: um . and . yeah . but yeah . as soon as we have something that 's significant and that 's better than than what was submitted , we will fix fix the system and but we 've not discussed it it it this yet , yeah . professor a: yeah . sounds like a great idea but but i think that that um he 's saying people are sort of scrambling for a eurospeech deadline . phd f: mmm . professor a: but that 'll be uh , uh done in a week . so , maybe after this next one . phd f: yeah . phd b: wow ! already a week ! man ! professor a: yeah . phd b: you 're right . that 's amazing . professor a: yeah . anybo - anybody in the in this group do doing anything for eurospeech ? phd f: s professor a: or , is that what is that phd f: yeah we are we are trying to to do something with the meeting recorder digits , professor a: right . phd f: and but yeah . yeah . and the good thing is that there is this first deadline , professor a: yeah . phd f: and , well , some people from ogi are working on a paper for this , but there is also the um special session about th aurora which is uh which has an extended deadline . so . the deadline is in may . professor a: for uh oh , for eurospeech ? phd f: for th yeah . professor a: oh ! phd f: so f only for the experiments on aurora . so it it 's good , professor a: oh , a special dispensation . phd f: yeah . professor a: that 's great . phd b: mm - hmm . where is eurospeech this year ? phd f: it 's in denmark . professor a: aalborg aalborg uh phd b: oh . professor a: so the deadline when 's the deadline ? when 's the deadline ? phd f: hmm ? i think it 's the thirteenth of may . professor a: that 's great ! it 's great . so we should definitely get something in for that . phd f: yeah . professor a: but on meeting digits , maybe there 's maybe . phd f: yeah . professor a: maybe . phd f: so it would be for the first deadline . professor a: yeah . phd f: nnn . professor a: yeah . so , i mean , i i think that you could certainly start looking at at the issue uh but but uh i think it 's probably , on s from what stephane is saying , it 's it 's unlikely to get sort of active participation from the two sides until after they 've phd b: well i could at least well , i 'm going to be out next week but i could try to look into like this uh cvs over the web . that seems to be a very popular way of people distributing changes and over , you know , multiple sites and things professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: so maybe if i can figure out how do that easily and then pass the information on to everybody so that it 's you know , as easy to do as possible and and people do n't it wo n't interfere with { comment } their regular work , then maybe that would be good . and i think we could use it for other things around here too . so . professor a: good . grad c: that 's cool . and if you 're interested in using cvs , i 've set it up here , phd b: oh great . grad c: so . phd b: ok . grad c: um j phd b: i used it a long time ago but it 's been a while so maybe i can ask you some questions . grad c: oh . so . i 'll be away tomorrow and monday but i 'll be back on tuesday or wednesday . phd b: ok . professor a: yeah . dave , the other thing , actually , is is this business about this wave form . maybe you and i can talk a little bit at some point about coming up with a better uh demonstration of the effects of reverberation for our web page , cuz uh the uh um i mean , actually the the uh it made a good good audio demonstration because when we could play that clip the the the really obvious difference is that you can hear two voices and in the second one and only hear phd b: maybe we could just like , talk into a cup . professor a: yeah . phd b: some good reverb . professor a: no , i mean , it sound it sounds pretty reverberant , but i mean you ca n't when you play it back in a room with a you know a big room , nobody can hear that difference really . grad c: yeah . professor a: they hear that it 's lower amplitude and they hear there 's a second voice , grad c: uh - huh . professor a: um but uh that actually that makes for a perfectly good demo because that 's a real obvious thing , that you hear two voices . phd b: but not of reverberation . professor a: yeah . grad c: a boom . professor a: well that that that 's ok . but for the the visual , just , you know , i 'd like to have uh uh , you know , the spectrogram again , grad c: yeah . professor a: because you 're you 're you 're visual uh abilities as a human being are so good you can pick out you know , you you look at the good one , you look at the cru the screwed up one , and and you can see the features in it without trying to @ @ phd b: i noticed that in the pictures . professor a: yeah . phd b: i thought `` hey , you know th `` i my initial thought was `` this is not too bad ! `` professor a: right . but you have to you know , if you look at it closely , you see `` well , here 's a place where this one has a big formant uh uh formant maj major formants here are are moving quite a bit . `` and then you look in the other one and they look practically flat . phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: so i mean you could that 's why i was thinking , in a section like that , you could take a look look at just that part of the spectrogram and you could say `` oh yeah . this this really distorted it quite a bit . `` phd b: yeah . the main thing that struck me in looking at those two spectrograms was the difference in the high frequencies . it looked like for the one that was farther away , you know , it really everything was attenuated professor a: right . phd b: and i mean that was the main visual thing that i noticed . professor a: right . but it 's it 's uh so . yeah . so there are clearly are spectral effects . since you 're getting all this indirect energy , then a lot of it does have have uh reduced high frequencies . but um the other thing is the temporal courses of things really are changed , and and uh we want to show that , in some obvious way . the reason i put the wave forms in there was because uh they they do look quite different . uh . and so i thought `` oh , this is good . `` but i i just uh after after uh they were put in there i did n't really look at them anymore , cuz i just they were different . so i want something that has a is a more interesting explanation for why they 're different . um . grad c: oh . so maybe we can just substitute one of these wave forms and um then do some kind of zoom in on the spectrogram on an interesting area . professor a: something like that . yeah . grad c: uh - huh . professor a: the other thing that we had in there that i did n't like was that um the most obvious characteristic of the difference uh when you listen to it is that there 's a second voice , and the the the the the uh cuts that we have there actually do n't correspond to the full wave form . it 's just the first i think there was something where he was having some trouble getting so much in , or . i i forget the reason behind it . but it it 's um it 's the first six seconds or something of it and it 's in the seventh or eighth second or something where @ @ the second voice comes in . so we we would like to actually see the voice coming in , too , i think , since that 's the most obvious thing when you listen to it . grad c: mm - hmm . professor a: so . um . phd f: uh , yeah . yeah . i brought some i do n't know if some figures here . well . i start we started to work on spectral subtraction . and um the preliminary results were very bad . professor a: uh - huh . phd f: so the thing that we did is just to add spectral subtraction before this , the wall uh process , which contains lda on - line normalization . and it hurts uh a lot . professor a: uh - huh . phd f: and so we started to look at at um things like this , which is , well , it 's yeah . so you have the c - zero parameters for one uh italian utterance . phd d: you can @ @ . phd f: and i plotted this for two channels . channel zero is the close mic microphone , and channel one is the distant microphone . and it 's perfectly synchronized , so . and the sentence contain only one word , which is `` due `` and it ca n't clearly be seen . where where is it ? professor a: uh - huh . phd f: where is the word ? phd b: this is this is , grad e: hmm . phd b: oh , a plot of c - zero , phd f: so . phd b: the energy . phd f: this is a plot of c - zero , uh when we do n't use spectral substraction , and when there is no on - line normalization . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: so . there is just some filtering with the lda and and some downsampling , upsampling . phd b: c - zero is the close talking ? phd f: so . phd b: uh the close channel ? phd f: yeah . yeah . phd b: and s channel one is the phd f: yeah . so c - zero is very clean , actually . phd b: yeah . phd f: uh then when we apply mean normalization it looks like the second figure , though it is not . which is good . well , the noise part is around zero professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: and and then the third figure is what happens when we apply mean normalization and variance normalization . so . what we can clearly see is that on the speech portion the two channel come becomes very close , but also what happens on the noisy portion is that the variance of the noise is professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: this is still being a plot of c - zero ? ok . phd f: yeah . this is still c - zero . phd b: can i ask um what does variance normalization do ? w what is the effect of that ? professor a: normalizes the variance . phd f: so it it yeah . phd b: i mean phd f: it normalized th the standard deviation . phd b: y yeah . phd f: so it phd b: no , i understand that , phd f: you you get an estimate of the standard deviation . phd b: but i mean phd f: that 's phd b: no . phd f: um phd b: no , i understand what it is , but i mean , what does it what 's what is phd f: yeah but . phd b: uh professor a: what 's the rationale ? phd b: we yeah . yeah . why why do it ? phd f: uh . professor a: well , i mean , because everything uh if you have a system based on gaussians , everything is based on means and variances . phd b: yeah . professor a: so if there 's an overall reason you know , it 's like uh if you were doing uh image processing and in some of the pictures you were looking at , uh there was a lot of light uh and and in some , there was low light , phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: you know , you would want to adjust for that in order to compare things . phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: and the variance is just sort of like the next moment , you know ? so uh what if um one set of pictures was taken uh so that throughout the course it was went through daylight and night uh um um ten times , another time it went thr i mean i is , you know , how how much how much vari phd b: oh , ok . professor a: or no . i guess a better example would be how much of the light was coming in from outside rather than artificial light . so if it was a lot if more was coming from outside , then there 'd be the bigger effect of the of the of the change in the so every mean every all all of the the parameters that you have , especially the variances , are going to be affected by the overall variance . phd b: oh , ok . uh - huh . professor a: and so , in principle , you if you remove that source , then , you know , you can phd b: i see . ok . so would the major effect is that you 're gon na get is by normalizing the means , professor a: that 's the first order but thing , phd b: but it may help first - order effects . professor a: but then the second order is is the variances phd b: and it may help to do the variance . ok . professor a: because , again , if you if you 're trying to distinguish between e and b phd b: ok . professor a: if it just so happens that the e 's were a more you know , were recorded when when the energy was was was larger or something , phd b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor a: or the variation in it was larger , uh than with the b 's , then this will be give you some some bias . phd b: professor a: so the it 's removing these sources of variability in the data that have nothing to do with the linguistic component . phd b: ok . phd f: mmm . phd b: gotcha . ok . sorry to interrupt . professor a: but the the uh but let me as ask ask you something . phd f: yep . and it and this professor a: i is if if you have a good voice activity detector , is n't is n't it gon na pull that out ? phd f: yeah . sure . if they are good . yeah . well what it it shows is that , yeah , perhaps a good voice activity detector is is good before on - line normalization and that 's what uh we 've already observed . but uh , yeah , voice activity detection is not an easy thing neither . phd b: but after you do this , after you do the variance normalization i mean . phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: i do n't know , it seems like this would be a lot easier than this signal to work with . phd f: yeah . so . what i notice is that , while i prefer to look at the second figure than at the third one , well , because you clearly see where speech is . professor a: yeah . phd b: yeah . phd f: but the problem is that on the speech portion , channel zero and channel one are more different than when you use variance normalization where channel zero and channel one become closer . professor a: right . phd b: but for the purposes of finding the speech phd f: and yeah , but here phd b: you 're more interested in the difference between the speech and the nonspeech , phd f: yeah . phd b: right ? phd f: yeah . so i think , yeah . for i th i think that it perhaps it shows that uh the parameters that the voice activity detector should use uh have to use should be different than the parameter that have to be used for speech recognition . professor a: yeah . so basically you want to reduce this effect . phd f: well , y professor a: so you can do that by doing the voi voice activity detection . you also could do it by spect uh spectral subtraction before the variance normalization , right ? phd f: yeah , but it 's not clear , yeah . professor a: so uh phd f: we so . well . it 's just to professor a: yeah . phd f: the the number that at that are here are recognition experiments on italian hm and mm with these two kinds of parameters . and , well , it 's better with variance normalization . professor a: yeah . yeah . so it does get better even though it looks ugly . phd f: uh professor a: ok . but does this have the voice activity detection in it ? phd f: yeah . professor a: ok . phd f: um . professor a: so . grad e: ok . phd b: where 's th phd f: but the fact is that the voice activity detector does n't work on channel one . so . yeah . professor a: uh - huh . phd b: where at what stage is the voice activity detector applied ? is it applied here or a after the variance normalization ? phd f: hmm ? professor a: spectral subtraction , i guess . phd b: or phd f: it 's applied before variance normalization . so it 's a good thing , phd b: oh . phd f: because i guess voice activity detection on this should could be worse . phd b: yeah . is it applied all the way back here ? phd f: it 's applied the um on , yeah , something like this , phd b: maybe that 's why it does n't work for channel one . phd f: yeah . perhaps , yeah . professor a: can i phd f: so we could perhaps do just mean normalization before vad . phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: mm - hmm . can i ask a , i mean a sort of top - level question , which is um `` if if most of what the ogi folk are working with is trying to integrate this other other uh spectral subtraction , why are we worrying about it ? `` phd f: mm - hmm . about ? spectral subtraction ? professor a: yeah . phd f: it 's just uh well it 's another they are trying to u to use the um the ericsson and we 're trying to use something something else . and . yeah , and also to understand what happens because professor a: ok . phd f: uh fff well . when we do spectral subtraction , actually , i think that this is the the two last figures . professor a: yeah . phd f: um . it seems that after spectral subtraction , speech is more emerging now uh than than before . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: speech is more what ? phd f: well , the difference between the energy of the speech and the energy of the n spectral subtrac subtracted noise portion is is larger . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: well , if you compare the first figure to this one actually the scale is not the same , but if you look at the the numbers um you clearly see that the difference between the c - zero of the speech and c - zero of the noise portion is larger . uh but what happens is that after spectral subtraction , you also increase the variance of this of c - zero . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: and so if you apply variance normalization on this , it completely sc screw everything . well . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: um . uh . yeah . so yeah . and what they did at ogi is just uh they do n't use on - line normalization , for the moment , on spectral subtraction and i think yeah . i think as soon as they will try on - line normalization there will be a problem . so yeah , we 're working on the same thing but i think uh with different different system and professor a: right . i mean , i the intellectually it 's interesting to work on things th uh one way or the other phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: but i 'm i 'm just wondering if um on the list of things that there are to do , if there are things that we wo n't do because we 've got two groups doing the same thing . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: um . that 's phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: um . just just asking . uh . i mean , it 's phd f: yeah , well , phd b: there also could be i mean . i can maybe see a reason f for both working on it too phd f: uh . phd b: if um you know , if if if you work on something else and and you 're waiting for them to give you spectral subtraction i mean it 's hard to know whether the effects that you get from the other experiments you do will carry over once you then bring in their spectral subtraction module . so it 's it 's almost like everything 's held up waiting for this one thing . i do n't know if that 's true or not , but i could see how phd f: mmm . professor a: i do n't know . phd b: maybe that 's what you were thinking . professor a: i do n't know . i mean , we still evidently have a latency reduction plan which which is n't quite what you 'd like it to be . that that seems like one prominent thing . and then uh were n't issues of of having a a second stream or something ? that was was it there was this business that , you know , we we could use up the full forty - eight hundred bits , and phd f: yeah . but i think they ' i think we want to work on this . they also want to work on this , so . uh . yeah . we we will try msg , but um , yeah . and they are t i think they want to work on the second stream also , but more with some kind of multi - band or , well , what they call trap or generalized trap . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: um . so . professor a: ok . do you remember when the next meeting is supposed to be ? the next uh phd f: it 's uh in june . professor a: in june . ok . phd f: yeah . professor a: yeah . um . yeah , the other thing is that you saw that that mail about uh the vad v a ds performing quite differently ? that that uh so um . this there was this experiment of uh `` what if we just take the baseline ? `` phd f: mmm . professor a: set uh of features , just mel cepstra , and you inc incorporate the different v a and it looks like the the french vad is actually uh better significantly better . phd b: improves the baseline ? professor a: yeah . yeah . phd f: yeah but i do n't know which vad they use . uh . if the use the small vad i th i think it 's on i think it 's easy to do better because it does n't work at all . so . i i do n't know which which one . it 's pratibha that that did this experiment . phd d: yeah . phd f: um . we should ask which vad she used . phd d: i do n't @ @ . he actually , i think that he say with the good vad of from ogi and with the alcatel vad . and the experiment was sometime better , sometime worse . phd f: yeah but i it 's uh i think you were talking about the other mail that used vad on the reference features . professor a: yes . phd f: yeah . professor a: and on that one , uh the french one is was better . phd d: i do n't remember . professor a: it was just better . phd d: mm - hmm . professor a: i mean it was enough better that that it would uh account for a fair amount of the difference between our performance , actually . phd f: mm - hmm . phd d: mm - hmm . professor a: so . uh . so if they have a better one , we should use it . i mean . you know ? it 's you ca n't work on everything . phd f: yeah . professor a: uh . uh . yeah . phd f: yeah , so we should find out if it 's really better . i mean if it the compared to the small or the big network . phd d: mm - hmm . professor a: yeah . phd f: and perhaps we can easily improve if if we put like mean normalization before the before the vad . because as as you 've mentioned . professor a: yeah . phd f: mmm . professor a: h hynek will be back in town uh the week after next , back back in the country . so . and start start organizing uh more visits and connections and so forth , phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and uh working towards june . phd f: yeah . phd d: also is stephane was thinking that maybe it was useful to f to think about uh voiced - unvoiced phd f: mm - hmm . phd d: to work uh here in voiced - unvoiced detection . phd f: yeah . yeah . phd d: and we are looking in the uh signal . phd f: yeah , my feeling is that um actually when we look at all the proposals , ev everybody is still using some kind of spectral envelope professor a: right . phd f: and um it 's professor a: no use of pitch uh basically . yeah . phd f: yeah , well , not pitch , but to look at the um fine at the at the high re high resolution spectrum . professor a: yeah . well , it phd f: so . we do n't necessarily want to find the the pitch of the of the sound but uh cuz i have a feeling that when we look when we look at the just at the envelope there is no way you can tell if it 's voiced and unvoiced , if there is some it 's it 's easy in clean speech because voiced sound are more low frequency and . so there would be more , professor a: yeah . phd f: uh there is the first formant , which is the larger and then voiced sound are more high frequencies cuz it 's frication and professor a: right . phd f: but , yeah . when you have noise there is no um if if you have a low frequency noise it could be taken for for voiced speech and . professor a: yeah , you can make these mistakes , phd f: so . professor a: but but phd b: is n't there some other phd f: s phd b: uh d phd f: so i think that it it would be good yeah , yeah , well , go go on . phd b: uh , i was just gon na say is n't there are n't are n't there lots of ideas for doing voice activity , or speech - nonspeech rather , { comment } um by looking at um , you know , uh i guess harmonics or looking across time professor a: well , i think he was talking about the voiced - unvoiced , though , phd f: mmm . professor a: right ? so , not the speech - nonspeech . phd b: yeah . well even with e professor a: yeah . phd b: uh w ah you know , uh even with the voiced - non voiced - unvoiced phd f: mmm . phd b: um i thought that you or somebody was talking about professor a: well . uh yeah . b we should let him finish what he w he was gon na say , phd f: so . phd b: ok . professor a: and phd b: so go ahead . phd f: um yeah , so yeah , i think if we try to develop a second stream well , there would be one stream that is the envelope and the second , it could be interesting to have that 's something that 's more related to the fine structure of the spectrum . and . yeah , so i do n't know . we were thinking about like using ideas from from larry saul , have a good voice detector , have a good , well , voiced - speech detector , that 's working on on the fft and uh professor a: u phd f: larry saul could be an idea . we were are thinking about just kind of uh taking the spectrum and computing the variance of of the high resolution spectrum and things like this . professor a: so u s u ok . so so many tell you something about that . uh we had a guy here some years ago who did some work on um making use of voicing information uh to help in reducing the noise . phd f: yeah ? professor a: so what he was doing is basically y you you do estimate the pitch . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and um you from that you you estimate or you estimate fine harmonic structure , whichev ei either way , it 's more or less the same . but uh the thing is that um you then can get rid of things that are not i if there is strong harmonic structure , you can throw away stuff that 's that 's non - harmonic . phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor a: and that that is another way of getting rid of part of the noise phd f: yeah . professor a: so um that 's something that is sort of finer , phd f: yeah . professor a: brings in a little more information than just spectral subtraction . um . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and he had some i mean , he did that sort of in combination with rasta . it was kind of like rasta was taking care of convolutional stuff phd f: mmm . professor a: and he was phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and and got some some decent results doing that . so that that 's another another way . but yeah , there 's there 's phd f: yeah . mmm . professor a: right . there 's all these cues . we 've actually back when chuck was here we did some voiced - unvoiced uh classification using a bunch of these , phd f: but professor a: and and uh works ok . obviously it 's not perfect but um phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: but the thing is that you ca n't given the constraints of this task , we ca n't , in a very nice way , feed forward to the recognizer the information the probabilistic information that you might get about whether it 's voiced or unvoiced , where w we ca n't you know affect the the uh distributions or anything . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: but we what we uh i guess we could yeah . phd b: did n't the head dude send around that message ? yeah , i think you sent us all a copy of the message , where he was saying that i i 'm not sure , exactly , what the gist of what he was saying , but something having to do with the voice activity detector and that it will that people should n't put their own in or something . it was gon na be a professor a: that but ok . so that 's voice activity detector as opposed to voicing detector . phd f: they did n't . professor a: so we 're talking about something a little different . phd f: mmm . phd b: oh , i 'm sorry . professor a: right ? phd b: i i missed that . phd f: mmm . professor a: i guess what you could do , maybe this would be w useful , if if you have if you view the second stream , yeah , before you before you do klt 's and so forth , if you do view it as probabilities , and if it 's an independent so , if it 's if it 's uh not so much envelope - based by fine - structure - based , uh looking at harmonicity or something like that , um if you get a probability from that information and then multiply it by you know , multiply by all the voiced outputs and all the unvoiced outputs , you know , then use that as the phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: uh take the log of that or uh pre pre uh pre - nonlinearity , phd f: yeah . i if professor a: uh and do the klt on the on on that , phd f: yeah . professor a: then that would that would i guess be uh a reasonable use of independent information . so maybe that 's what you meant . and then that would be phd f: yeah , well , i was not thinking this yeah , this could be an yeah so you mean have some kind of probability for the v the voicing professor a: r right . so you have a second neural net . phd f: and then use a tandem system professor a: it could be pretty small . yeah . if you have a tandem system and then you have some kind of it can be pretty small net phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: we used we d did some of this stuff . uh i i did , some years ago , phd f: yeah . professor a: and the and and you use the thing is to use information primarily that 's different as you say , it 's more fine - structure - based than than envelope - based phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: uh so then it you you you can pretty much guarantee it 's stuff that you 're not looking at very well with the other one , and uh then you only use for this one distinction . phd f: alright . professor a: and and so now you 've got a probability of the cases , and you 've got uh the probability of the finer uh categories on the other side . you multiply them where appropriate and uh um phd f: i see , yeah . mm - hmm . professor a: if they really are from independent information sources then they should have different kinds of errors phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and roughly independent errors , and it 's a good choice for phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . yeah . professor a: uh . yeah , that 's a good idea . phd f: yeah . because , yeah , well , spectral subtraction is good and we could u we could use the fine structure to to have a better estimate of the noise but still there is this issue with spectral subtraction that it seems to increase the variance of of of professor a: yeah . phd f: um well it 's this musical noise which is annoying if you d you do some kind of on - line normalization after . professor a: right . phd f: so . um . yeah . well . spectral subtraction and on - line normalization do n't seem to to go together very well . i professor a: or if you do a spectral subtraction do some spectral subtraction first and then do some on - line normalization then do some more spectral subtraction i mean , maybe maybe you can do it layers or something so it does n't does n't hurt too much or something . phd f: ah , yeah . professor a: but it but uh , anyway i think i was sort of arguing against myself there by giving that example phd f: yeah . professor a: uh i mean cuz i was already sort of suggesting that we should be careful about not spending too much time on exactly what they 're doing in fact if you get if you go into uh a uh harmonics - related thing it 's definitely going to be different than what they 're doing and uh uh phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: should have some interesting properties in noise . um . i know that when have people have done um sort of the obvious thing of taking uh your feature vector and adding in some variables which are pitch related or uh that it has n't my impression it has n't particularly helped . uh . has not . phd f: it it i has not , professor a: yeah . phd f: yeah . professor a: but i think uh that 's that 's a question for this uh you know extending the feature vector versus having different streams . phd f: oh . was it nois noisy condition ? the example that you you just professor a: and and it may not have been noisy conditions . phd f: yeah . professor a: yeah . i i do n't remember the example but it was it was on some darpa data and some years ago and so it probably was n't , actually phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . yeah . but we were thinking , we discussed with barry about this , and perhaps thinking we were thinking about some kind of sheet cheating experiment where we would use timit professor a: uh - huh . phd f: and see if giving the d uh , this voicing bit would help in in terms of uh frame classification . professor a: why do n't you why do n't you just do it with aurora ? phd f: mmm . professor a: just any i in in each in each frame phd f: yeah , but but b but we can not do the cheating , this cheating thing . grad e: we 're professor a: uh grad e: we need labels . professor a: why not ? phd f: well . cuz we do n't have well , for italian perhaps we have , but we do n't have this labeling for aurora . we just have a labeling with word models professor a: i see . phd f: but not for phonemes . phd d: not for foreigners . grad e: we do n't have frame frame level transcriptions . professor a: um . phd d: right . phd f: um . yeah . professor a: but you could i mean you can you can align so that it 's not perfect , but if you if you know what was said and phd b: but the problem is that their models are all word level models . so there 's no phone models that you get alignments for . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: oh . phd b: you so you could find out where the word boundaries are but that 's about it . professor a: yeah . i see . grad e: s but we could use uh the the noisy version that timit , which you know , is similar to the the noises found in the ti - digits um portion of aurora . phd f: yeah . noise , yeah . yeah , that 's right , yep . mmm . professor a: yeah . phd f: well , i guess i guess we can we can say that it will help , but i do n't know . if this voicing bit does n't help , uh , i think we do n't have to to work more about this because professor a: uh . phd f: uh . it 's just to know if it how much i it will help professor a: yeah . phd f: and to have an idea of how much we can gain . professor a: right . i mean in experiments that we did a long time ago phd f: mmm . professor a: and different ta it was probably resource management or something , um , i think you were getting something like still eight or nine percent error on the voicing , as i recall . and um , so um grad e: another person 's voice . professor a: what that said is that , sort of , left to its own devices , like without the a strong language model and so forth , that you would you would make significant number of errors just with your uh probabilistic machinery in deciding phd b: it also professor a: one oh phd b: yeah , the though i think uh there was one problem with that in that , you know , we used canonical mapping so our truth may not have really been true to the acoustics . professor a: uh - huh . grad e: hmm . phd b: so . phd f: mmm . professor a: yeah . well back twenty years ago when i did this voiced - unvoiced stuff , we were getting more like ninety - seven or ninety - eight percent correct in voicing . but that was speaker - dependent actually . we were doing training on a particular announcer phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and and getting a very good handle on the features . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and we did this complex feature selection thing where we looked at all the different possible features one could have for voicing and and and uh and exhaustively searched all size subsets and and uh for for that particular speaker and you 'd find you know the five or six features which really did well on them . phd b: wow ! phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and then doing doing all of that we could get down to two or three percent error . but that , again , was speaker - dependent with lots of feature selection phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: and a very complex sort of thing . phd f: mmm . professor a: so i would i would believe that uh it was quite likely that um looking at envelope only , that we 'd be significantly worse than that . phd f: mm - hmm . professor a: uh . phd f: and the all the the speechcorders ? what 's the idea behind ? cuz they they have to oh , they do n't even have to detect voiced spe speech ? professor a: the modern ones do n't do a a simple switch . phd f: they just work on the code book professor a: they work on the code book excitation . phd f: and find out the best excitation . professor a: yeah they do analysis - by - synthesis . they try they they try every every possible excitation they have in their code book and find the one that matches best . phd f: yeah . mmm . alright . yeah . so it would not help . professor a: yeah . grad e: hmm . professor a: uh . o k . phd b: can i just mention one other interesting thing ? professor a: yeah . phd b: um . one of the ideas that we had come up with last week for things to try to improve the system um . actually i i s we did n't i guess i wrote this in after the meeting b but the thought i had was um looking at the language model that 's used in the htk recognizer , which is basically just a big loop , grad e: mm - hmm . phd b: right ? so you it goes `` digit `` phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: and then that can be either go to silence or go to another digit , which that model would allow for the production of infinitely long sequences of digits , right ? professor a: right . phd b: so . i thought `` well i 'm gon na just look at the what actual digit strings do occur in the training data . `` professor a: right . phd b: and the interesting thing was it turns out that there are no sequences of two - long or three - long digit strings in any of the aurora training data . so it 's either one , four , five , six , uh up to eleven , and then it skips and then there 's some at sixteen . professor a: but what about the testing data ? phd b: um . i do n't know . i did n't look at the test data yet . professor a: yeah . i mean if there 's some testing data that has has has two or three phd b: so . yeah . but i just thought that was a little odd , that there were no two or three long sorry . so i i just for the heck of it , i made a little grammar which um , you know , had it 's separate path for each length digit string you could get . so there was a one - long path and there was a four - long and a five - long professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: and i tried that and it got way worse . there were lots of deletions . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: so it was you know , i i did n't have any weights of these paths or i did n't have anything like that . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: and i played with tweaking the word transition penalties a bunch , but i could n't go anywhere . professor a: hmm . phd b: but um . i thought `` well if i only allow `` yeah , i guess i should have looked at to see how often there was a mistake where a two - long or a three - long path was actually put out as a hypothesis . um . but . professor a: hmm . phd b: so to do that right you 'd probably want to have allow for them all but then have weightings and things . so . i just thought that was a interesting thing about the data . professor a: ok . so we 're gon na read some more digit strings i guess ? phd b: yeah . you want to go ahead , morgan ? professor a: sure .

phd f informed the group that the preliminary results from spectral subtraction were very bad . mean normalization brought noise to around zero . mean and variance normalization helped with speech but not with noise variance .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> user interface: okay . industrial designer: or you get it . okay . user interface: no i do n't think so it has to be like that yeah and you have to adjust the length . okay , and then . project manager: so we uh we will wait for anna , a few minutes . user interface: yeah , s yeah , um . industrial designer: mm . yours is well user interface: i think you can put anywhere you want , actually . i thin industrial designer: yeah but the the mic should not user interface: it 's not a directional mic , anyway . project manager: i think it should work like this . industrial designer: user interface: uh . project manager: so i will try to get my presentation running . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm . industrial designer: mm . ca n't help you with that . user interface: last . project manager: it 's no matter . industrial designer: okay , it 's y yeah . project manager: no problem . ah yes . industrial designer: right . user interface: okay . industrial designer: then press uh al user interface: okay . industrial designer: this . project manager: i do n't know . industrial designer: you know ? project manager: just try . user interface: 'kay . project manager: on this normal industrial designer: oh oh . user interface: alt f_ five . project manager: good . does n't appear on the screen here . industrial designer: right well project manager: oh . industrial designer: wow . amazing . it 's working . project manager: okay . thank you . uh . marketing: hold that . okay . project manager: yes and you can put can clip it uh on your marketing: okay . mm . project manager: somewhere . so , good morning , everyone . um welcome at uh at the kick off meeting of our uh latest project . industrial designer: project manager: i hope you all have been uh updated about it . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: good . user interface: so . yes . project manager: so w we will try to structure this uh meeting with an a with an agenda uh as presented here . um after the opening we will tr get acquainted to each other . user interface: project manager: see what our roles are in this project . so , um we have been provided with uh some uh w technical tools to uh to communicate and to well , learn from each other 's plans uh as i can say um so w we will also try to uh to get acquainted to this tools so they are also new to me i do n't know whether you worked with them before . um then we will come to the uh to the to the actual project plan . you all know i hope how it 's about uh the uh new r remote control we are going going to design . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: total . project manager: uh then we will uh discuss uh , well , how it should be and uh wh what uh what our new product should look lite like . and uh well then uh after some twenty five minutes i hope uh we can end this meeting . so . um basically this is about a uh a new c remote control . um we when you design a new product you of uh you of course want it to be original . be uh we want to be distinguished , mm ? people uh want to uh when they look at the shelf want to think , well that 's the product i i need . so it needs to be trendy . i mean trendy is what people want , so then i w they will buy our product . but then , uh , it also should work uh user friendly and uh otherwise people uh uh well it will not be uh be rated very well in consumer uh articles and like that . industrial designer: project manager: so , the general outline of uh new project will be we first uh go through a functional design phase . um you all get uh um certain task uh in this uh in this phase and uh then we will meet again and uh discuss this functional design . and the same holds for the uh ph two phases uh after this , the conceptual design and after that a a more detailed design in which the the final project should get its definite shape . alright , but first we will do some uh tool training . in all in front of you uh you see uh the uh notebooks and w uh n note blocks and we have here a a a a white-board . user interface: whitebo marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and um well it should work uh i 've read it from my uh from some colleague that it should work with some kind of toolbar . i did n't find out yet how it work , but maybe one of you did , so um industrial designer: under documents in the shared folder . okay . project manager: yes . do do we have to say something about that ? i i i 'm not fully updated about this shared folder uh . industrial designer: yeah , i guess we 'll have a shared folder uh with documents that we can share . and uh , yeah . project manager: yes well we will then find out ho how it works . industrial designer: yes . project manager: um . well , this seems to me , yes , some computer program but i did n't find it yet . so , we 'll come to that later . so , uh now we will try out the white-board we have here . so , i would suggest uh industrial designer: each of us is going . project manager: well , yes , um we uh we should try to t to draw on it and then well it should be smart some way . i i 'm not really sure how this works , but industrial designer: okay , shall i start ? marketing: mm . yeah . project manager: yes , user interface: yeah , project manager: a good idea mael . user interface: you can start it you know . marketing: i think for us it 's just like a normal whiteboard , but they 'll be recording what we write down . industrial designer: so , i user interface: no they will record through that . there 's a sensor over there marketing: mm . mm . user interface: which is going to record the strokes that you make . marketing: but for us it 's just like a normal whiteboard . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'kay . user interface: industrial designer: but it 's marketing: industrial designer: actually , i think i can not go with uh project manager: you you d does n't it work ? maybe someo maybe maybe anna , maybe you can start . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: then he can maybe find out to get his cord right . marketing: i have to draw . project manager: so um l why do n't you draw uh your favourite animal on on th on the white-board . industrial designer: marketing: m my my favourite animal . sorry this is all tangled up here . project manager: oh , i see uh marketing: that 's better . user interface: yeah . marketing: project manager: yeah . yes . mm . so draw it . we will try to guess what it is . marketing: mm-hmm . i 'm a very bad drawer . project manager: marketing: weird . um . you 're not gon na be able to guess from my drawing . i 'm a bad drawer . okay . project manager: mm . marketing: they 're ears , by the way . user interface: 's a cat . marketing: no . um close though . okay so like a pet animal . industrial designer: okay . marketing: like a cat . user interface: yeah . project manager: it 's like a cat , so i guess it 's a cat . marketing: no , not a cat though . project manager: what is this now ? user interface: ah you forget about it . industrial designer: you 're on the knife . user interface: yeah , uh i think it 's fine . i just do n't want to carry it off . man , this wires , eh ? we need a wireless microphone . industrial designer: user interface: you know ? pro specially we should next project we should take l like that . marketing: okay . so . project manager: so , marketing: it 's not a cat , project manager: that 's the cat . marketing: it 's a dog . project manager: oh . user interface: so . industrial designer: mael . project manager: it 's a dog . marketing: yes . project manager: so but that 's also kind of cat , user interface: oh project manager: is n't it ? user interface: the dog does n't have a tail ? marketing: it 's got a tail then . project manager: b bo both predators . user interface: yeah , sure , yeah . marketing: yeah yeah . user interface: i thought so . the dogs have a tail . marketing: so do cats . project manager: so , thank you . uh d did you uh work out cord ? industrial designer: user interface: marketing: and you guessed cats without a tail . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , i think i will go without without it , marketing: okay . project manager: okay . industrial designer: right ? user interface: it 'll still not extend , right ? it 's not up to that . marketing: okay , there you go . so what favourite characteristics . uh . dogs are always friendly and loyal and fun . a horse ? user interface: it 's a horse . marketing: this is why you 're the designer . and i 'm marketing . project manager: yes . yes , yes this is yes definitely a horse . yes . oh very good . so marketing: ah project manager: i suppose it user interface: ah i think you can put that . marketing: mm-hmm . that 's it . a blue and black zebra . user interface: marketing: project manager: yes . can you can meet them in africa , i think . yes . very good . so marketing: the very rare blue zebras . yes . user interface: i 'll tell to get it off my project manager: ma matthew ? user interface: uh ? mm-hmm . project manager: so marketing: you got a lot of room here . project manager: maybe marketing: you can probably reach . user interface: oh y it 's not for that . marketing: no ? user interface: no . project manager: i hope you have some space in your uh the horse of uh mael . user interface: okay . yeah . so what should i draw ? mm . he has already to do cat . marketing: i took a dog . industrial designer: marketing: um . a mouse ? project manager: this looks likes a cat who has been driven over . marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: and we should sum up its favourite charas characteristics , right ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yes , the moustache . industrial designer: so project manager: that 's that 's definitely a cat . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh yeah . and i th they like to sleep , that 's why you said you they are like this . project manager: it 's quite , you know relaxed situation . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yes , okay . marketing: industrial designer: she has the small legs . project manager: th thank you , matthew . industrial designer: yeah . thank you , matthew . marketing: it 's a very big rat . or a very small cat . project manager: industrial designer: perfect . oh a rat , okay . project manager: yes , this is certain uh some contribution to our project . marketing: mm 'kay . industrial designer: and you , marketing: your turn . project manager: so . let 's see . which animal has not been drawn yet . so you 've all drawn land animals , marketing: project manager: so why not draw an animal from the water . industrial designer: a bird . okay , in the water . marketing: ah i do n't know what that is . it 's a bit industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm . marketing: it 's a bit hard to guess . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: user interface: so industrial designer: put it colours . maybe it would help us . marketing: yeah . project manager: yes . user interface: the cat is going to eat the fish or the rat ? industrial designer: with different pen widths . marketing: mm-hmm. $ project manager: so marketing: oh , it 's a shark now . industrial designer: ah it 's a shark , yeah . marketing: project manager: oh , yes , why not ? industrial designer: project manager: good idea . user interface: ah it 's a baby shark , it looks to me , marketing: mm . user interface: you know it 's going to eat the cat rather than the cat eating the fish , no ? industrial designer: oh . marketing: now it 's a swordfish . project manager: why not . a swordfish . marketing: industrial designer: you have some in in australia , right ? marketing: swordfish . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , maybe . industrial designer: i dunno . marketing: i 've never seen one , no . industrial designer: oh well . yeah . project manager: i hope it still works . so industrial designer: perfect . so i dunno if we need to spend time on that , actually but uh user interface: you should go for the next one it seems to me . project manager: w well , this uh this tool seemed to work . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , exactly , yeah . project manager: let 's continue to uh to the real stuff . industrial designer: wow . project manager: um our project uh finance uh thing . uh when we are and when w you are uh going to design w uh we must keep in mind that the selling price of the product uh will be about twenty five euros , so when designing a project uh i also look at you uh mael , keep in mind uh uh uh people uh user interface: twenty four . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: want to get the feeling this is a twenty five euro project uh pr um product . industrial designer: per remote control , marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah ? per project . project manager: yes . okay . um industrial designer: project manager: more interesting for our company of course , p uh profit aim , about fifty million euro . so we have to sell uh quite a lot of this uh um things . uh we will try to uh to get at a international market uh so um it will be i think mainly europe and uh northern america , user interface: ah yeah , the sale man , four million . project manager: maybe some uh asian countries . um also important for you all is um the the product uh production cost must be maximal uh twelve uh twelve euro and fifty cents . industrial designer: so it 's half of the selling price , if i am good in mathematics . project manager: yes , of course . uh um i mean we still have to uh to make a profit , huh ? user interface: they have to sell at least four million to make a profit industrial designer: of course . marketing: mm . project manager: you all have to be paid . marketing: mm . project manager: excuse me ? user interface: ah we have to make we have to sell at least four million to make our own profit . fifty mill industrial designer: oh you 're g very good in mathematics . marketing: yes . user interface: project manager: yes , indeed . user interface: industrial designer: four million . project manager: so uh well i think w when we are working on the international market , uh in principle it has enough customers industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh so when we have a good product we uh we could uh meet this this aim , i think . so , that about finance . and uh now just let have some discussion about what is a good remote control and uh well keep in mind this this first point , it has to be original , it has to be trendy , it has to be user friendly . um , maybe someone can mention some additional uh prerequisites for a good remote control . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: of course it should have a on off button . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yes , well i it should have the the the the expected functionality uh of a remote control . marketing: mm . yeah . user interface: yeah , s and it depends what application you are using it for . marketing: mm . user interface: you might need uh project manager: we wer we were thinking television . uh . marketing: mm . user interface: we are targ targeting the television set . so , marketing: mm . user interface: you need to record the channels . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: you need to browse the browse the channels in upward downward way , marketing: mm . project manager: yes , yes . th th that 's very handy i i always miss it and on some remote controls that you can go channel up or down ins instead of retyping the number , especially when you have a lot of channels . user interface: uh and marketing: mm . mm . user interface: uh , and industrial designer: and uh just before starting the detailed discussion , maybe we are the marketing guy ? or marketing: i 'm marketing . user interface: marketing . industrial designer: th so you are the marketing . marketing: yep . industrial designer: and you are in the u use user interface uh design . user interface: yeah . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so just yeah i wanted to to be sure . user interface: sure . industrial designer: and i i 'm the the industrial designer marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yes . user interface: industrial designer: okay . user interface: oh . industrial designer: because i i do n't know you very well , actually , but yeah . user interface: i 'm matthew . you know . industrial designer: okay . mael . user interface: matth s uh industrial designer: happy to meet you . marketing: anna . user interface: anna . industrial designer: okay . it 's very uh project manager: a and i 'm nanne . user interface: and um uh matthew , yeah . project manager: so user interface: i thi think you know me , industrial designer: uh so yeah uh just uh on your web page but uh yeah not uh not face to face . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah ? right yeah . project manager: so . um s user interface: so . industrial designer: so mm project manager: s s marketing: mm . project manager: are there some other very important things to to do well , user interface: so industrial designer: so i project manager: to specify in this first phase of of the project . so the browse function , as you m mentioned . marketing: mm . yeah . oth yeah . user interface: and uh , you 'd need the usual ones , like the changing the volume , changing the the channel and then you uh project manager: yes . yeah . user interface: today we have uh um teletext and all those things . tomorrow you might have a some more functions which might come through that , so project manager: yes . industrial designer: like what ? like internet on the on tv ? marketing: mm . user interface: yeah i_p_o_ or . now we are looking for television things or i_p_ . for example personal video recorder and all those stuffs are coming up . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . but we ca n't really design for something that has n't been invented yet . user interface: yeah . ah it 's it 's it 's it 's coming up , actually . the personal video recorder and all those things it is coming up . project manager: mm , well uh i i think uh w y you two should should , i think , think this over uh w espec what , what functionality . industrial designer: actually , yeah user interface: let 's let 's take industrial designer: w of course , and first before um designing the func well thinking about the functionalities , we need to know what are the user requirements . marketing: mm . yeah . industrial designer: um then if they need internet , then we would be able to to p to propose something with uh uh tv over i_p_ . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . mm . yeah . but ninety percent of the time , ninety nine percent of the time , people will be using the main functions , the volume , the different channels , so we can have all the fancy things as well but the main controls need to be very obvious and very easy to use . project manager: mm mm mm . keep k keep in mind i it 's a it 's a twenty five euro unit , so uh uh the the very fancy stuff uh w we can leave that out , i think . marketing: mm . project manager: so twenty five euro you expect a quite , well normal but good functioning user friendly remote control . marketing: mm . user interface: oh in that case you can you always hook up with uh someone who is providing that and you know , you you sell their product as well as your product with them , you know . marketing: mm . so try and get tv manufacturers to user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , but w w we want to design a new one . mm . user interface: no , it 's okay , yeah i understand . so we need some numbering buttons , some teletext things industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then um industrial designer: the yeah , the main is browsing . yeah . project manager: yes , but but but ab about the spec the buttons , the buttons uh that will be on it . i i think we can discuss that in the in the next meeting . user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: uh i would like to get this wrapped up and go to an end of this meeting . user interface: okay . project manager: so user interface: okay , we are alread mm . mm . project manager: so industrial designer: okay . project manager: you know now the basic the basic things . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . project manager: well just just for the next meeting , um user interface: l project manager: well , uh , you wor yes , work on a design , keep it general , i mean so w we will be still fle flexible with maybe adding some functions . so industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: um you will be working on on technical function design , so user interface: yeah , sure . project manager: and uh you and you and uh uh uh well , think about requirements , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: eh ? does it need internet , or or do do we stay at basic basic television uh interface . user interface: stam . marketing: yeah . project manager: so , uh i think we should now all go work uh uh at this marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh you will be informed via email and other kind of communication . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . project manager: so next meeting will be in uh in thirty minutes uh . industrial designer: perfect . project manager: k keep it in mind .

project manager introduced a new remote control project for television sets , and the team got acquainted with each other and technical devices . the remote control would be priced at 25 euros and a production cost of 12.5 euros . priority will be given to standard features , such as sorting through channels , instead of more advanced internet features .

what did the group discuss about prioritizing remote control features ? </s> user interface: okay . industrial designer: or you get it . okay . user interface: no i do n't think so it has to be like that yeah and you have to adjust the length . okay , and then . project manager: so we uh we will wait for anna , a few minutes . user interface: yeah , s yeah , um . industrial designer: mm . yours is well user interface: i think you can put anywhere you want , actually . i thin industrial designer: yeah but the the mic should not user interface: it 's not a directional mic , anyway . project manager: i think it should work like this . industrial designer: user interface: uh . project manager: so i will try to get my presentation running . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm . industrial designer: mm . ca n't help you with that . user interface: last . project manager: it 's no matter . industrial designer: okay , it 's y yeah . project manager: no problem . ah yes . industrial designer: right . user interface: okay . industrial designer: then press uh al user interface: okay . industrial designer: this . project manager: i do n't know . industrial designer: you know ? project manager: just try . user interface: 'kay . project manager: on this normal industrial designer: oh oh . user interface: alt f_ five . project manager: good . does n't appear on the screen here . industrial designer: right well project manager: oh . industrial designer: wow . amazing . it 's working . project manager: okay . thank you . uh . marketing: hold that . okay . project manager: yes and you can put can clip it uh on your marketing: okay . mm . project manager: somewhere . so , good morning , everyone . um welcome at uh at the kick off meeting of our uh latest project . industrial designer: project manager: i hope you all have been uh updated about it . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: good . user interface: so . yes . project manager: so w we will try to structure this uh meeting with an a with an agenda uh as presented here . um after the opening we will tr get acquainted to each other . user interface: project manager: see what our roles are in this project . so , um we have been provided with uh some uh w technical tools to uh to communicate and to well , learn from each other 's plans uh as i can say um so w we will also try to uh to get acquainted to this tools so they are also new to me i do n't know whether you worked with them before . um then we will come to the uh to the to the actual project plan . you all know i hope how it 's about uh the uh new r remote control we are going going to design . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: total . project manager: uh then we will uh discuss uh , well , how it should be and uh wh what uh what our new product should look lite like . and uh well then uh after some twenty five minutes i hope uh we can end this meeting . so . um basically this is about a uh a new c remote control . um we when you design a new product you of uh you of course want it to be original . be uh we want to be distinguished , mm ? people uh want to uh when they look at the shelf want to think , well that 's the product i i need . so it needs to be trendy . i mean trendy is what people want , so then i w they will buy our product . but then , uh , it also should work uh user friendly and uh otherwise people uh uh well it will not be uh be rated very well in consumer uh articles and like that . industrial designer: project manager: so , the general outline of uh new project will be we first uh go through a functional design phase . um you all get uh um certain task uh in this uh in this phase and uh then we will meet again and uh discuss this functional design . and the same holds for the uh ph two phases uh after this , the conceptual design and after that a a more detailed design in which the the final project should get its definite shape . alright , but first we will do some uh tool training . in all in front of you uh you see uh the uh notebooks and w uh n note blocks and we have here a a a a white-board . user interface: whitebo marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and um well it should work uh i 've read it from my uh from some colleague that it should work with some kind of toolbar . i did n't find out yet how it work , but maybe one of you did , so um industrial designer: under documents in the shared folder . okay . project manager: yes . do do we have to say something about that ? i i i 'm not fully updated about this shared folder uh . industrial designer: yeah , i guess we 'll have a shared folder uh with documents that we can share . and uh , yeah . project manager: yes well we will then find out ho how it works . industrial designer: yes . project manager: um . well , this seems to me , yes , some computer program but i did n't find it yet . so , we 'll come to that later . so , uh now we will try out the white-board we have here . so , i would suggest uh industrial designer: each of us is going . project manager: well , yes , um we uh we should try to t to draw on it and then well it should be smart some way . i i 'm not really sure how this works , but industrial designer: okay , shall i start ? marketing: mm . yeah . project manager: yes , user interface: yeah , project manager: a good idea mael . user interface: you can start it you know . marketing: i think for us it 's just like a normal whiteboard , but they 'll be recording what we write down . industrial designer: so , i user interface: no they will record through that . there 's a sensor over there marketing: mm . mm . user interface: which is going to record the strokes that you make . marketing: but for us it 's just like a normal whiteboard . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'kay . user interface: industrial designer: but it 's marketing: industrial designer: actually , i think i can not go with uh project manager: you you d does n't it work ? maybe someo maybe maybe anna , maybe you can start . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: then he can maybe find out to get his cord right . marketing: i have to draw . project manager: so um l why do n't you draw uh your favourite animal on on th on the white-board . industrial designer: marketing: m my my favourite animal . sorry this is all tangled up here . project manager: oh , i see uh marketing: that 's better . user interface: yeah . marketing: project manager: yeah . yes . mm . so draw it . we will try to guess what it is . marketing: mm-hmm . i 'm a very bad drawer . project manager: marketing: weird . um . you 're not gon na be able to guess from my drawing . i 'm a bad drawer . okay . project manager: mm . marketing: they 're ears , by the way . user interface: 's a cat . marketing: no . um close though . okay so like a pet animal . industrial designer: okay . marketing: like a cat . user interface: yeah . project manager: it 's like a cat , so i guess it 's a cat . marketing: no , not a cat though . project manager: what is this now ? user interface: ah you forget about it . industrial designer: you 're on the knife . user interface: yeah , uh i think it 's fine . i just do n't want to carry it off . man , this wires , eh ? we need a wireless microphone . industrial designer: user interface: you know ? pro specially we should next project we should take l like that . marketing: okay . so . project manager: so , marketing: it 's not a cat , project manager: that 's the cat . marketing: it 's a dog . project manager: oh . user interface: so . industrial designer: mael . project manager: it 's a dog . marketing: yes . project manager: so but that 's also kind of cat , user interface: oh project manager: is n't it ? user interface: the dog does n't have a tail ? marketing: it 's got a tail then . project manager: b bo both predators . user interface: yeah , sure , yeah . marketing: yeah yeah . user interface: i thought so . the dogs have a tail . marketing: so do cats . project manager: so , thank you . uh d did you uh work out cord ? industrial designer: user interface: marketing: and you guessed cats without a tail . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , i think i will go without without it , marketing: okay . project manager: okay . industrial designer: right ? user interface: it 'll still not extend , right ? it 's not up to that . marketing: okay , there you go . so what favourite characteristics . uh . dogs are always friendly and loyal and fun . a horse ? user interface: it 's a horse . marketing: this is why you 're the designer . and i 'm marketing . project manager: yes . yes , yes this is yes definitely a horse . yes . oh very good . so marketing: ah project manager: i suppose it user interface: ah i think you can put that . marketing: mm-hmm . that 's it . a blue and black zebra . user interface: marketing: project manager: yes . can you can meet them in africa , i think . yes . very good . so marketing: the very rare blue zebras . yes . user interface: i 'll tell to get it off my project manager: ma matthew ? user interface: uh ? mm-hmm . project manager: so marketing: you got a lot of room here . project manager: maybe marketing: you can probably reach . user interface: oh y it 's not for that . marketing: no ? user interface: no . project manager: i hope you have some space in your uh the horse of uh mael . user interface: okay . yeah . so what should i draw ? mm . he has already to do cat . marketing: i took a dog . industrial designer: marketing: um . a mouse ? project manager: this looks likes a cat who has been driven over . marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: and we should sum up its favourite charas characteristics , right ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yes , the moustache . industrial designer: so project manager: that 's that 's definitely a cat . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh yeah . and i th they like to sleep , that 's why you said you they are like this . project manager: it 's quite , you know relaxed situation . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yes , okay . marketing: industrial designer: she has the small legs . project manager: th thank you , matthew . industrial designer: yeah . thank you , matthew . marketing: it 's a very big rat . or a very small cat . project manager: industrial designer: perfect . oh a rat , okay . project manager: yes , this is certain uh some contribution to our project . marketing: mm 'kay . industrial designer: and you , marketing: your turn . project manager: so . let 's see . which animal has not been drawn yet . so you 've all drawn land animals , marketing: project manager: so why not draw an animal from the water . industrial designer: a bird . okay , in the water . marketing: ah i do n't know what that is . it 's a bit industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm . marketing: it 's a bit hard to guess . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: user interface: so industrial designer: put it colours . maybe it would help us . marketing: yeah . project manager: yes . user interface: the cat is going to eat the fish or the rat ? industrial designer: with different pen widths . marketing: mm-hmm. $ project manager: so marketing: oh , it 's a shark now . industrial designer: ah it 's a shark , yeah . marketing: project manager: oh , yes , why not ? industrial designer: project manager: good idea . user interface: ah it 's a baby shark , it looks to me , marketing: mm . user interface: you know it 's going to eat the cat rather than the cat eating the fish , no ? industrial designer: oh . marketing: now it 's a swordfish . project manager: why not . a swordfish . marketing: industrial designer: you have some in in australia , right ? marketing: swordfish . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , maybe . industrial designer: i dunno . marketing: i 've never seen one , no . industrial designer: oh well . yeah . project manager: i hope it still works . so industrial designer: perfect . so i dunno if we need to spend time on that , actually but uh user interface: you should go for the next one it seems to me . project manager: w well , this uh this tool seemed to work . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , exactly , yeah . project manager: let 's continue to uh to the real stuff . industrial designer: wow . project manager: um our project uh finance uh thing . uh when we are and when w you are uh going to design w uh we must keep in mind that the selling price of the product uh will be about twenty five euros , so when designing a project uh i also look at you uh mael , keep in mind uh uh uh people uh user interface: twenty four . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: want to get the feeling this is a twenty five euro project uh pr um product . industrial designer: per remote control , marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah ? per project . project manager: yes . okay . um industrial designer: project manager: more interesting for our company of course , p uh profit aim , about fifty million euro . so we have to sell uh quite a lot of this uh um things . uh we will try to uh to get at a international market uh so um it will be i think mainly europe and uh northern america , user interface: ah yeah , the sale man , four million . project manager: maybe some uh asian countries . um also important for you all is um the the product uh production cost must be maximal uh twelve uh twelve euro and fifty cents . industrial designer: so it 's half of the selling price , if i am good in mathematics . project manager: yes , of course . uh um i mean we still have to uh to make a profit , huh ? user interface: they have to sell at least four million to make a profit industrial designer: of course . marketing: mm . project manager: you all have to be paid . marketing: mm . project manager: excuse me ? user interface: ah we have to make we have to sell at least four million to make our own profit . fifty mill industrial designer: oh you 're g very good in mathematics . marketing: yes . user interface: project manager: yes , indeed . user interface: industrial designer: four million . project manager: so uh well i think w when we are working on the international market , uh in principle it has enough customers industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh so when we have a good product we uh we could uh meet this this aim , i think . so , that about finance . and uh now just let have some discussion about what is a good remote control and uh well keep in mind this this first point , it has to be original , it has to be trendy , it has to be user friendly . um , maybe someone can mention some additional uh prerequisites for a good remote control . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: of course it should have a on off button . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yes , well i it should have the the the the expected functionality uh of a remote control . marketing: mm . yeah . user interface: yeah , s and it depends what application you are using it for . marketing: mm . user interface: you might need uh project manager: we wer we were thinking television . uh . marketing: mm . user interface: we are targ targeting the television set . so , marketing: mm . user interface: you need to record the channels . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: you need to browse the browse the channels in upward downward way , marketing: mm . project manager: yes , yes . th th that 's very handy i i always miss it and on some remote controls that you can go channel up or down ins instead of retyping the number , especially when you have a lot of channels . user interface: uh and marketing: mm . mm . user interface: uh , and industrial designer: and uh just before starting the detailed discussion , maybe we are the marketing guy ? or marketing: i 'm marketing . user interface: marketing . industrial designer: th so you are the marketing . marketing: yep . industrial designer: and you are in the u use user interface uh design . user interface: yeah . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so just yeah i wanted to to be sure . user interface: sure . industrial designer: and i i 'm the the industrial designer marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yes . user interface: industrial designer: okay . user interface: oh . industrial designer: because i i do n't know you very well , actually , but yeah . user interface: i 'm matthew . you know . industrial designer: okay . mael . user interface: matth s uh industrial designer: happy to meet you . marketing: anna . user interface: anna . industrial designer: okay . it 's very uh project manager: a and i 'm nanne . user interface: and um uh matthew , yeah . project manager: so user interface: i thi think you know me , industrial designer: uh so yeah uh just uh on your web page but uh yeah not uh not face to face . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah ? right yeah . project manager: so . um s user interface: so . industrial designer: so mm project manager: s s marketing: mm . project manager: are there some other very important things to to do well , user interface: so industrial designer: so i project manager: to specify in this first phase of of the project . so the browse function , as you m mentioned . marketing: mm . yeah . oth yeah . user interface: and uh , you 'd need the usual ones , like the changing the volume , changing the the channel and then you uh project manager: yes . yeah . user interface: today we have uh um teletext and all those things . tomorrow you might have a some more functions which might come through that , so project manager: yes . industrial designer: like what ? like internet on the on tv ? marketing: mm . user interface: yeah i_p_o_ or . now we are looking for television things or i_p_ . for example personal video recorder and all those stuffs are coming up . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . but we ca n't really design for something that has n't been invented yet . user interface: yeah . ah it 's it 's it 's it 's coming up , actually . the personal video recorder and all those things it is coming up . project manager: mm , well uh i i think uh w y you two should should , i think , think this over uh w espec what , what functionality . industrial designer: actually , yeah user interface: let 's let 's take industrial designer: w of course , and first before um designing the func well thinking about the functionalities , we need to know what are the user requirements . marketing: mm . yeah . industrial designer: um then if they need internet , then we would be able to to p to propose something with uh uh tv over i_p_ . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . mm . yeah . but ninety percent of the time , ninety nine percent of the time , people will be using the main functions , the volume , the different channels , so we can have all the fancy things as well but the main controls need to be very obvious and very easy to use . project manager: mm mm mm . keep k keep in mind i it 's a it 's a twenty five euro unit , so uh uh the the very fancy stuff uh w we can leave that out , i think . marketing: mm . project manager: so twenty five euro you expect a quite , well normal but good functioning user friendly remote control . marketing: mm . user interface: oh in that case you can you always hook up with uh someone who is providing that and you know , you you sell their product as well as your product with them , you know . marketing: mm . so try and get tv manufacturers to user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , but w w we want to design a new one . mm . user interface: no , it 's okay , yeah i understand . so we need some numbering buttons , some teletext things industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then um industrial designer: the yeah , the main is browsing . yeah . project manager: yes , but but but ab about the spec the buttons , the buttons uh that will be on it . i i think we can discuss that in the in the next meeting . user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: uh i would like to get this wrapped up and go to an end of this meeting . user interface: okay . project manager: so user interface: okay , we are alread mm . mm . project manager: so industrial designer: okay . project manager: you know now the basic the basic things . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . project manager: well just just for the next meeting , um user interface: l project manager: well , uh , you wor yes , work on a design , keep it general , i mean so w we will be still fle flexible with maybe adding some functions . so industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: um you will be working on on technical function design , so user interface: yeah , sure . project manager: and uh you and you and uh uh uh well , think about requirements , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: eh ? does it need internet , or or do do we stay at basic basic television uh interface . user interface: stam . marketing: yeah . project manager: so , uh i think we should now all go work uh uh at this marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh you will be informed via email and other kind of communication . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . project manager: so next meeting will be in uh in thirty minutes uh . industrial designer: perfect . project manager: k keep it in mind .

user interface and industrial designer expressed a desire to integrate cutting-edge features into the remote . marketing pointed out that most of the market will buy it for standard use , like changing channels and adjusting volume , so those features should be the priority . project manager agreed , explaining that people expect a well-functioning , normal remote for their proposed product price of 25 euros .

why did marketing disagree with industrial designer ? </s> user interface: okay . industrial designer: or you get it . okay . user interface: no i do n't think so it has to be like that yeah and you have to adjust the length . okay , and then . project manager: so we uh we will wait for anna , a few minutes . user interface: yeah , s yeah , um . industrial designer: mm . yours is well user interface: i think you can put anywhere you want , actually . i thin industrial designer: yeah but the the mic should not user interface: it 's not a directional mic , anyway . project manager: i think it should work like this . industrial designer: user interface: uh . project manager: so i will try to get my presentation running . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm . industrial designer: mm . ca n't help you with that . user interface: last . project manager: it 's no matter . industrial designer: okay , it 's y yeah . project manager: no problem . ah yes . industrial designer: right . user interface: okay . industrial designer: then press uh al user interface: okay . industrial designer: this . project manager: i do n't know . industrial designer: you know ? project manager: just try . user interface: 'kay . project manager: on this normal industrial designer: oh oh . user interface: alt f_ five . project manager: good . does n't appear on the screen here . industrial designer: right well project manager: oh . industrial designer: wow . amazing . it 's working . project manager: okay . thank you . uh . marketing: hold that . okay . project manager: yes and you can put can clip it uh on your marketing: okay . mm . project manager: somewhere . so , good morning , everyone . um welcome at uh at the kick off meeting of our uh latest project . industrial designer: project manager: i hope you all have been uh updated about it . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: good . user interface: so . yes . project manager: so w we will try to structure this uh meeting with an a with an agenda uh as presented here . um after the opening we will tr get acquainted to each other . user interface: project manager: see what our roles are in this project . so , um we have been provided with uh some uh w technical tools to uh to communicate and to well , learn from each other 's plans uh as i can say um so w we will also try to uh to get acquainted to this tools so they are also new to me i do n't know whether you worked with them before . um then we will come to the uh to the to the actual project plan . you all know i hope how it 's about uh the uh new r remote control we are going going to design . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: total . project manager: uh then we will uh discuss uh , well , how it should be and uh wh what uh what our new product should look lite like . and uh well then uh after some twenty five minutes i hope uh we can end this meeting . so . um basically this is about a uh a new c remote control . um we when you design a new product you of uh you of course want it to be original . be uh we want to be distinguished , mm ? people uh want to uh when they look at the shelf want to think , well that 's the product i i need . so it needs to be trendy . i mean trendy is what people want , so then i w they will buy our product . but then , uh , it also should work uh user friendly and uh otherwise people uh uh well it will not be uh be rated very well in consumer uh articles and like that . industrial designer: project manager: so , the general outline of uh new project will be we first uh go through a functional design phase . um you all get uh um certain task uh in this uh in this phase and uh then we will meet again and uh discuss this functional design . and the same holds for the uh ph two phases uh after this , the conceptual design and after that a a more detailed design in which the the final project should get its definite shape . alright , but first we will do some uh tool training . in all in front of you uh you see uh the uh notebooks and w uh n note blocks and we have here a a a a white-board . user interface: whitebo marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and um well it should work uh i 've read it from my uh from some colleague that it should work with some kind of toolbar . i did n't find out yet how it work , but maybe one of you did , so um industrial designer: under documents in the shared folder . okay . project manager: yes . do do we have to say something about that ? i i i 'm not fully updated about this shared folder uh . industrial designer: yeah , i guess we 'll have a shared folder uh with documents that we can share . and uh , yeah . project manager: yes well we will then find out ho how it works . industrial designer: yes . project manager: um . well , this seems to me , yes , some computer program but i did n't find it yet . so , we 'll come to that later . so , uh now we will try out the white-board we have here . so , i would suggest uh industrial designer: each of us is going . project manager: well , yes , um we uh we should try to t to draw on it and then well it should be smart some way . i i 'm not really sure how this works , but industrial designer: okay , shall i start ? marketing: mm . yeah . project manager: yes , user interface: yeah , project manager: a good idea mael . user interface: you can start it you know . marketing: i think for us it 's just like a normal whiteboard , but they 'll be recording what we write down . industrial designer: so , i user interface: no they will record through that . there 's a sensor over there marketing: mm . mm . user interface: which is going to record the strokes that you make . marketing: but for us it 's just like a normal whiteboard . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'kay . user interface: industrial designer: but it 's marketing: industrial designer: actually , i think i can not go with uh project manager: you you d does n't it work ? maybe someo maybe maybe anna , maybe you can start . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: then he can maybe find out to get his cord right . marketing: i have to draw . project manager: so um l why do n't you draw uh your favourite animal on on th on the white-board . industrial designer: marketing: m my my favourite animal . sorry this is all tangled up here . project manager: oh , i see uh marketing: that 's better . user interface: yeah . marketing: project manager: yeah . yes . mm . so draw it . we will try to guess what it is . marketing: mm-hmm . i 'm a very bad drawer . project manager: marketing: weird . um . you 're not gon na be able to guess from my drawing . i 'm a bad drawer . okay . project manager: mm . marketing: they 're ears , by the way . user interface: 's a cat . marketing: no . um close though . okay so like a pet animal . industrial designer: okay . marketing: like a cat . user interface: yeah . project manager: it 's like a cat , so i guess it 's a cat . marketing: no , not a cat though . project manager: what is this now ? user interface: ah you forget about it . industrial designer: you 're on the knife . user interface: yeah , uh i think it 's fine . i just do n't want to carry it off . man , this wires , eh ? we need a wireless microphone . industrial designer: user interface: you know ? pro specially we should next project we should take l like that . marketing: okay . so . project manager: so , marketing: it 's not a cat , project manager: that 's the cat . marketing: it 's a dog . project manager: oh . user interface: so . industrial designer: mael . project manager: it 's a dog . marketing: yes . project manager: so but that 's also kind of cat , user interface: oh project manager: is n't it ? user interface: the dog does n't have a tail ? marketing: it 's got a tail then . project manager: b bo both predators . user interface: yeah , sure , yeah . marketing: yeah yeah . user interface: i thought so . the dogs have a tail . marketing: so do cats . project manager: so , thank you . uh d did you uh work out cord ? industrial designer: user interface: marketing: and you guessed cats without a tail . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , i think i will go without without it , marketing: okay . project manager: okay . industrial designer: right ? user interface: it 'll still not extend , right ? it 's not up to that . marketing: okay , there you go . so what favourite characteristics . uh . dogs are always friendly and loyal and fun . a horse ? user interface: it 's a horse . marketing: this is why you 're the designer . and i 'm marketing . project manager: yes . yes , yes this is yes definitely a horse . yes . oh very good . so marketing: ah project manager: i suppose it user interface: ah i think you can put that . marketing: mm-hmm . that 's it . a blue and black zebra . user interface: marketing: project manager: yes . can you can meet them in africa , i think . yes . very good . so marketing: the very rare blue zebras . yes . user interface: i 'll tell to get it off my project manager: ma matthew ? user interface: uh ? mm-hmm . project manager: so marketing: you got a lot of room here . project manager: maybe marketing: you can probably reach . user interface: oh y it 's not for that . marketing: no ? user interface: no . project manager: i hope you have some space in your uh the horse of uh mael . user interface: okay . yeah . so what should i draw ? mm . he has already to do cat . marketing: i took a dog . industrial designer: marketing: um . a mouse ? project manager: this looks likes a cat who has been driven over . marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: and we should sum up its favourite charas characteristics , right ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yes , the moustache . industrial designer: so project manager: that 's that 's definitely a cat . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh yeah . and i th they like to sleep , that 's why you said you they are like this . project manager: it 's quite , you know relaxed situation . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yes , okay . marketing: industrial designer: she has the small legs . project manager: th thank you , matthew . industrial designer: yeah . thank you , matthew . marketing: it 's a very big rat . or a very small cat . project manager: industrial designer: perfect . oh a rat , okay . project manager: yes , this is certain uh some contribution to our project . marketing: mm 'kay . industrial designer: and you , marketing: your turn . project manager: so . let 's see . which animal has not been drawn yet . so you 've all drawn land animals , marketing: project manager: so why not draw an animal from the water . industrial designer: a bird . okay , in the water . marketing: ah i do n't know what that is . it 's a bit industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm . marketing: it 's a bit hard to guess . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: user interface: so industrial designer: put it colours . maybe it would help us . marketing: yeah . project manager: yes . user interface: the cat is going to eat the fish or the rat ? industrial designer: with different pen widths . marketing: mm-hmm. $ project manager: so marketing: oh , it 's a shark now . industrial designer: ah it 's a shark , yeah . marketing: project manager: oh , yes , why not ? industrial designer: project manager: good idea . user interface: ah it 's a baby shark , it looks to me , marketing: mm . user interface: you know it 's going to eat the cat rather than the cat eating the fish , no ? industrial designer: oh . marketing: now it 's a swordfish . project manager: why not . a swordfish . marketing: industrial designer: you have some in in australia , right ? marketing: swordfish . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , maybe . industrial designer: i dunno . marketing: i 've never seen one , no . industrial designer: oh well . yeah . project manager: i hope it still works . so industrial designer: perfect . so i dunno if we need to spend time on that , actually but uh user interface: you should go for the next one it seems to me . project manager: w well , this uh this tool seemed to work . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , exactly , yeah . project manager: let 's continue to uh to the real stuff . industrial designer: wow . project manager: um our project uh finance uh thing . uh when we are and when w you are uh going to design w uh we must keep in mind that the selling price of the product uh will be about twenty five euros , so when designing a project uh i also look at you uh mael , keep in mind uh uh uh people uh user interface: twenty four . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: want to get the feeling this is a twenty five euro project uh pr um product . industrial designer: per remote control , marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah ? per project . project manager: yes . okay . um industrial designer: project manager: more interesting for our company of course , p uh profit aim , about fifty million euro . so we have to sell uh quite a lot of this uh um things . uh we will try to uh to get at a international market uh so um it will be i think mainly europe and uh northern america , user interface: ah yeah , the sale man , four million . project manager: maybe some uh asian countries . um also important for you all is um the the product uh production cost must be maximal uh twelve uh twelve euro and fifty cents . industrial designer: so it 's half of the selling price , if i am good in mathematics . project manager: yes , of course . uh um i mean we still have to uh to make a profit , huh ? user interface: they have to sell at least four million to make a profit industrial designer: of course . marketing: mm . project manager: you all have to be paid . marketing: mm . project manager: excuse me ? user interface: ah we have to make we have to sell at least four million to make our own profit . fifty mill industrial designer: oh you 're g very good in mathematics . marketing: yes . user interface: project manager: yes , indeed . user interface: industrial designer: four million . project manager: so uh well i think w when we are working on the international market , uh in principle it has enough customers industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh so when we have a good product we uh we could uh meet this this aim , i think . so , that about finance . and uh now just let have some discussion about what is a good remote control and uh well keep in mind this this first point , it has to be original , it has to be trendy , it has to be user friendly . um , maybe someone can mention some additional uh prerequisites for a good remote control . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: of course it should have a on off button . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yes , well i it should have the the the the expected functionality uh of a remote control . marketing: mm . yeah . user interface: yeah , s and it depends what application you are using it for . marketing: mm . user interface: you might need uh project manager: we wer we were thinking television . uh . marketing: mm . user interface: we are targ targeting the television set . so , marketing: mm . user interface: you need to record the channels . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: you need to browse the browse the channels in upward downward way , marketing: mm . project manager: yes , yes . th th that 's very handy i i always miss it and on some remote controls that you can go channel up or down ins instead of retyping the number , especially when you have a lot of channels . user interface: uh and marketing: mm . mm . user interface: uh , and industrial designer: and uh just before starting the detailed discussion , maybe we are the marketing guy ? or marketing: i 'm marketing . user interface: marketing . industrial designer: th so you are the marketing . marketing: yep . industrial designer: and you are in the u use user interface uh design . user interface: yeah . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so just yeah i wanted to to be sure . user interface: sure . industrial designer: and i i 'm the the industrial designer marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yes . user interface: industrial designer: okay . user interface: oh . industrial designer: because i i do n't know you very well , actually , but yeah . user interface: i 'm matthew . you know . industrial designer: okay . mael . user interface: matth s uh industrial designer: happy to meet you . marketing: anna . user interface: anna . industrial designer: okay . it 's very uh project manager: a and i 'm nanne . user interface: and um uh matthew , yeah . project manager: so user interface: i thi think you know me , industrial designer: uh so yeah uh just uh on your web page but uh yeah not uh not face to face . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah ? right yeah . project manager: so . um s user interface: so . industrial designer: so mm project manager: s s marketing: mm . project manager: are there some other very important things to to do well , user interface: so industrial designer: so i project manager: to specify in this first phase of of the project . so the browse function , as you m mentioned . marketing: mm . yeah . oth yeah . user interface: and uh , you 'd need the usual ones , like the changing the volume , changing the the channel and then you uh project manager: yes . yeah . user interface: today we have uh um teletext and all those things . tomorrow you might have a some more functions which might come through that , so project manager: yes . industrial designer: like what ? like internet on the on tv ? marketing: mm . user interface: yeah i_p_o_ or . now we are looking for television things or i_p_ . for example personal video recorder and all those stuffs are coming up . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . but we ca n't really design for something that has n't been invented yet . user interface: yeah . ah it 's it 's it 's it 's coming up , actually . the personal video recorder and all those things it is coming up . project manager: mm , well uh i i think uh w y you two should should , i think , think this over uh w espec what , what functionality . industrial designer: actually , yeah user interface: let 's let 's take industrial designer: w of course , and first before um designing the func well thinking about the functionalities , we need to know what are the user requirements . marketing: mm . yeah . industrial designer: um then if they need internet , then we would be able to to p to propose something with uh uh tv over i_p_ . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . mm . yeah . but ninety percent of the time , ninety nine percent of the time , people will be using the main functions , the volume , the different channels , so we can have all the fancy things as well but the main controls need to be very obvious and very easy to use . project manager: mm mm mm . keep k keep in mind i it 's a it 's a twenty five euro unit , so uh uh the the very fancy stuff uh w we can leave that out , i think . marketing: mm . project manager: so twenty five euro you expect a quite , well normal but good functioning user friendly remote control . marketing: mm . user interface: oh in that case you can you always hook up with uh someone who is providing that and you know , you you sell their product as well as your product with them , you know . marketing: mm . so try and get tv manufacturers to user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , but w w we want to design a new one . mm . user interface: no , it 's okay , yeah i understand . so we need some numbering buttons , some teletext things industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then um industrial designer: the yeah , the main is browsing . yeah . project manager: yes , but but but ab about the spec the buttons , the buttons uh that will be on it . i i think we can discuss that in the in the next meeting . user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: uh i would like to get this wrapped up and go to an end of this meeting . user interface: okay . project manager: so user interface: okay , we are alread mm . mm . project manager: so industrial designer: okay . project manager: you know now the basic the basic things . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . project manager: well just just for the next meeting , um user interface: l project manager: well , uh , you wor yes , work on a design , keep it general , i mean so w we will be still fle flexible with maybe adding some functions . so industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: um you will be working on on technical function design , so user interface: yeah , sure . project manager: and uh you and you and uh uh uh well , think about requirements , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: eh ? does it need internet , or or do do we stay at basic basic television uh interface . user interface: stam . marketing: yeah . project manager: so , uh i think we should now all go work uh uh at this marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh you will be informed via email and other kind of communication . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . project manager: so next meeting will be in uh in thirty minutes uh . industrial designer: perfect . project manager: k keep it in mind .

marketing believed that fancy features like ip would not be used by most people . the overwhelming majority of users would want convenient channel browsing and volume adjustment features . those should remain the main focus instead of more novel features .

what did user interface think about prioritizing remote control features ? </s> user interface: okay . industrial designer: or you get it . okay . user interface: no i do n't think so it has to be like that yeah and you have to adjust the length . okay , and then . project manager: so we uh we will wait for anna , a few minutes . user interface: yeah , s yeah , um . industrial designer: mm . yours is well user interface: i think you can put anywhere you want , actually . i thin industrial designer: yeah but the the mic should not user interface: it 's not a directional mic , anyway . project manager: i think it should work like this . industrial designer: user interface: uh . project manager: so i will try to get my presentation running . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm . industrial designer: mm . ca n't help you with that . user interface: last . project manager: it 's no matter . industrial designer: okay , it 's y yeah . project manager: no problem . ah yes . industrial designer: right . user interface: okay . industrial designer: then press uh al user interface: okay . industrial designer: this . project manager: i do n't know . industrial designer: you know ? project manager: just try . user interface: 'kay . project manager: on this normal industrial designer: oh oh . user interface: alt f_ five . project manager: good . does n't appear on the screen here . industrial designer: right well project manager: oh . industrial designer: wow . amazing . it 's working . project manager: okay . thank you . uh . marketing: hold that . okay . project manager: yes and you can put can clip it uh on your marketing: okay . mm . project manager: somewhere . so , good morning , everyone . um welcome at uh at the kick off meeting of our uh latest project . industrial designer: project manager: i hope you all have been uh updated about it . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: good . user interface: so . yes . project manager: so w we will try to structure this uh meeting with an a with an agenda uh as presented here . um after the opening we will tr get acquainted to each other . user interface: project manager: see what our roles are in this project . so , um we have been provided with uh some uh w technical tools to uh to communicate and to well , learn from each other 's plans uh as i can say um so w we will also try to uh to get acquainted to this tools so they are also new to me i do n't know whether you worked with them before . um then we will come to the uh to the to the actual project plan . you all know i hope how it 's about uh the uh new r remote control we are going going to design . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: total . project manager: uh then we will uh discuss uh , well , how it should be and uh wh what uh what our new product should look lite like . and uh well then uh after some twenty five minutes i hope uh we can end this meeting . so . um basically this is about a uh a new c remote control . um we when you design a new product you of uh you of course want it to be original . be uh we want to be distinguished , mm ? people uh want to uh when they look at the shelf want to think , well that 's the product i i need . so it needs to be trendy . i mean trendy is what people want , so then i w they will buy our product . but then , uh , it also should work uh user friendly and uh otherwise people uh uh well it will not be uh be rated very well in consumer uh articles and like that . industrial designer: project manager: so , the general outline of uh new project will be we first uh go through a functional design phase . um you all get uh um certain task uh in this uh in this phase and uh then we will meet again and uh discuss this functional design . and the same holds for the uh ph two phases uh after this , the conceptual design and after that a a more detailed design in which the the final project should get its definite shape . alright , but first we will do some uh tool training . in all in front of you uh you see uh the uh notebooks and w uh n note blocks and we have here a a a a white-board . user interface: whitebo marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and um well it should work uh i 've read it from my uh from some colleague that it should work with some kind of toolbar . i did n't find out yet how it work , but maybe one of you did , so um industrial designer: under documents in the shared folder . okay . project manager: yes . do do we have to say something about that ? i i i 'm not fully updated about this shared folder uh . industrial designer: yeah , i guess we 'll have a shared folder uh with documents that we can share . and uh , yeah . project manager: yes well we will then find out ho how it works . industrial designer: yes . project manager: um . well , this seems to me , yes , some computer program but i did n't find it yet . so , we 'll come to that later . so , uh now we will try out the white-board we have here . so , i would suggest uh industrial designer: each of us is going . project manager: well , yes , um we uh we should try to t to draw on it and then well it should be smart some way . i i 'm not really sure how this works , but industrial designer: okay , shall i start ? marketing: mm . yeah . project manager: yes , user interface: yeah , project manager: a good idea mael . user interface: you can start it you know . marketing: i think for us it 's just like a normal whiteboard , but they 'll be recording what we write down . industrial designer: so , i user interface: no they will record through that . there 's a sensor over there marketing: mm . mm . user interface: which is going to record the strokes that you make . marketing: but for us it 's just like a normal whiteboard . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'kay . user interface: industrial designer: but it 's marketing: industrial designer: actually , i think i can not go with uh project manager: you you d does n't it work ? maybe someo maybe maybe anna , maybe you can start . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: then he can maybe find out to get his cord right . marketing: i have to draw . project manager: so um l why do n't you draw uh your favourite animal on on th on the white-board . industrial designer: marketing: m my my favourite animal . sorry this is all tangled up here . project manager: oh , i see uh marketing: that 's better . user interface: yeah . marketing: project manager: yeah . yes . mm . so draw it . we will try to guess what it is . marketing: mm-hmm . i 'm a very bad drawer . project manager: marketing: weird . um . you 're not gon na be able to guess from my drawing . i 'm a bad drawer . okay . project manager: mm . marketing: they 're ears , by the way . user interface: 's a cat . marketing: no . um close though . okay so like a pet animal . industrial designer: okay . marketing: like a cat . user interface: yeah . project manager: it 's like a cat , so i guess it 's a cat . marketing: no , not a cat though . project manager: what is this now ? user interface: ah you forget about it . industrial designer: you 're on the knife . user interface: yeah , uh i think it 's fine . i just do n't want to carry it off . man , this wires , eh ? we need a wireless microphone . industrial designer: user interface: you know ? pro specially we should next project we should take l like that . marketing: okay . so . project manager: so , marketing: it 's not a cat , project manager: that 's the cat . marketing: it 's a dog . project manager: oh . user interface: so . industrial designer: mael . project manager: it 's a dog . marketing: yes . project manager: so but that 's also kind of cat , user interface: oh project manager: is n't it ? user interface: the dog does n't have a tail ? marketing: it 's got a tail then . project manager: b bo both predators . user interface: yeah , sure , yeah . marketing: yeah yeah . user interface: i thought so . the dogs have a tail . marketing: so do cats . project manager: so , thank you . uh d did you uh work out cord ? industrial designer: user interface: marketing: and you guessed cats without a tail . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , i think i will go without without it , marketing: okay . project manager: okay . industrial designer: right ? user interface: it 'll still not extend , right ? it 's not up to that . marketing: okay , there you go . so what favourite characteristics . uh . dogs are always friendly and loyal and fun . a horse ? user interface: it 's a horse . marketing: this is why you 're the designer . and i 'm marketing . project manager: yes . yes , yes this is yes definitely a horse . yes . oh very good . so marketing: ah project manager: i suppose it user interface: ah i think you can put that . marketing: mm-hmm . that 's it . a blue and black zebra . user interface: marketing: project manager: yes . can you can meet them in africa , i think . yes . very good . so marketing: the very rare blue zebras . yes . user interface: i 'll tell to get it off my project manager: ma matthew ? user interface: uh ? mm-hmm . project manager: so marketing: you got a lot of room here . project manager: maybe marketing: you can probably reach . user interface: oh y it 's not for that . marketing: no ? user interface: no . project manager: i hope you have some space in your uh the horse of uh mael . user interface: okay . yeah . so what should i draw ? mm . he has already to do cat . marketing: i took a dog . industrial designer: marketing: um . a mouse ? project manager: this looks likes a cat who has been driven over . marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: and we should sum up its favourite charas characteristics , right ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yes , the moustache . industrial designer: so project manager: that 's that 's definitely a cat . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh yeah . and i th they like to sleep , that 's why you said you they are like this . project manager: it 's quite , you know relaxed situation . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yes , okay . marketing: industrial designer: she has the small legs . project manager: th thank you , matthew . industrial designer: yeah . thank you , matthew . marketing: it 's a very big rat . or a very small cat . project manager: industrial designer: perfect . oh a rat , okay . project manager: yes , this is certain uh some contribution to our project . marketing: mm 'kay . industrial designer: and you , marketing: your turn . project manager: so . let 's see . which animal has not been drawn yet . so you 've all drawn land animals , marketing: project manager: so why not draw an animal from the water . industrial designer: a bird . okay , in the water . marketing: ah i do n't know what that is . it 's a bit industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm . marketing: it 's a bit hard to guess . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: user interface: so industrial designer: put it colours . maybe it would help us . marketing: yeah . project manager: yes . user interface: the cat is going to eat the fish or the rat ? industrial designer: with different pen widths . marketing: mm-hmm. $ project manager: so marketing: oh , it 's a shark now . industrial designer: ah it 's a shark , yeah . marketing: project manager: oh , yes , why not ? industrial designer: project manager: good idea . user interface: ah it 's a baby shark , it looks to me , marketing: mm . user interface: you know it 's going to eat the cat rather than the cat eating the fish , no ? industrial designer: oh . marketing: now it 's a swordfish . project manager: why not . a swordfish . marketing: industrial designer: you have some in in australia , right ? marketing: swordfish . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , maybe . industrial designer: i dunno . marketing: i 've never seen one , no . industrial designer: oh well . yeah . project manager: i hope it still works . so industrial designer: perfect . so i dunno if we need to spend time on that , actually but uh user interface: you should go for the next one it seems to me . project manager: w well , this uh this tool seemed to work . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , exactly , yeah . project manager: let 's continue to uh to the real stuff . industrial designer: wow . project manager: um our project uh finance uh thing . uh when we are and when w you are uh going to design w uh we must keep in mind that the selling price of the product uh will be about twenty five euros , so when designing a project uh i also look at you uh mael , keep in mind uh uh uh people uh user interface: twenty four . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: want to get the feeling this is a twenty five euro project uh pr um product . industrial designer: per remote control , marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah ? per project . project manager: yes . okay . um industrial designer: project manager: more interesting for our company of course , p uh profit aim , about fifty million euro . so we have to sell uh quite a lot of this uh um things . uh we will try to uh to get at a international market uh so um it will be i think mainly europe and uh northern america , user interface: ah yeah , the sale man , four million . project manager: maybe some uh asian countries . um also important for you all is um the the product uh production cost must be maximal uh twelve uh twelve euro and fifty cents . industrial designer: so it 's half of the selling price , if i am good in mathematics . project manager: yes , of course . uh um i mean we still have to uh to make a profit , huh ? user interface: they have to sell at least four million to make a profit industrial designer: of course . marketing: mm . project manager: you all have to be paid . marketing: mm . project manager: excuse me ? user interface: ah we have to make we have to sell at least four million to make our own profit . fifty mill industrial designer: oh you 're g very good in mathematics . marketing: yes . user interface: project manager: yes , indeed . user interface: industrial designer: four million . project manager: so uh well i think w when we are working on the international market , uh in principle it has enough customers industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh so when we have a good product we uh we could uh meet this this aim , i think . so , that about finance . and uh now just let have some discussion about what is a good remote control and uh well keep in mind this this first point , it has to be original , it has to be trendy , it has to be user friendly . um , maybe someone can mention some additional uh prerequisites for a good remote control . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: of course it should have a on off button . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yes , well i it should have the the the the expected functionality uh of a remote control . marketing: mm . yeah . user interface: yeah , s and it depends what application you are using it for . marketing: mm . user interface: you might need uh project manager: we wer we were thinking television . uh . marketing: mm . user interface: we are targ targeting the television set . so , marketing: mm . user interface: you need to record the channels . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: you need to browse the browse the channels in upward downward way , marketing: mm . project manager: yes , yes . th th that 's very handy i i always miss it and on some remote controls that you can go channel up or down ins instead of retyping the number , especially when you have a lot of channels . user interface: uh and marketing: mm . mm . user interface: uh , and industrial designer: and uh just before starting the detailed discussion , maybe we are the marketing guy ? or marketing: i 'm marketing . user interface: marketing . industrial designer: th so you are the marketing . marketing: yep . industrial designer: and you are in the u use user interface uh design . user interface: yeah . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so just yeah i wanted to to be sure . user interface: sure . industrial designer: and i i 'm the the industrial designer marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yes . user interface: industrial designer: okay . user interface: oh . industrial designer: because i i do n't know you very well , actually , but yeah . user interface: i 'm matthew . you know . industrial designer: okay . mael . user interface: matth s uh industrial designer: happy to meet you . marketing: anna . user interface: anna . industrial designer: okay . it 's very uh project manager: a and i 'm nanne . user interface: and um uh matthew , yeah . project manager: so user interface: i thi think you know me , industrial designer: uh so yeah uh just uh on your web page but uh yeah not uh not face to face . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah ? right yeah . project manager: so . um s user interface: so . industrial designer: so mm project manager: s s marketing: mm . project manager: are there some other very important things to to do well , user interface: so industrial designer: so i project manager: to specify in this first phase of of the project . so the browse function , as you m mentioned . marketing: mm . yeah . oth yeah . user interface: and uh , you 'd need the usual ones , like the changing the volume , changing the the channel and then you uh project manager: yes . yeah . user interface: today we have uh um teletext and all those things . tomorrow you might have a some more functions which might come through that , so project manager: yes . industrial designer: like what ? like internet on the on tv ? marketing: mm . user interface: yeah i_p_o_ or . now we are looking for television things or i_p_ . for example personal video recorder and all those stuffs are coming up . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . but we ca n't really design for something that has n't been invented yet . user interface: yeah . ah it 's it 's it 's it 's coming up , actually . the personal video recorder and all those things it is coming up . project manager: mm , well uh i i think uh w y you two should should , i think , think this over uh w espec what , what functionality . industrial designer: actually , yeah user interface: let 's let 's take industrial designer: w of course , and first before um designing the func well thinking about the functionalities , we need to know what are the user requirements . marketing: mm . yeah . industrial designer: um then if they need internet , then we would be able to to p to propose something with uh uh tv over i_p_ . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . mm . yeah . but ninety percent of the time , ninety nine percent of the time , people will be using the main functions , the volume , the different channels , so we can have all the fancy things as well but the main controls need to be very obvious and very easy to use . project manager: mm mm mm . keep k keep in mind i it 's a it 's a twenty five euro unit , so uh uh the the very fancy stuff uh w we can leave that out , i think . marketing: mm . project manager: so twenty five euro you expect a quite , well normal but good functioning user friendly remote control . marketing: mm . user interface: oh in that case you can you always hook up with uh someone who is providing that and you know , you you sell their product as well as your product with them , you know . marketing: mm . so try and get tv manufacturers to user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , but w w we want to design a new one . mm . user interface: no , it 's okay , yeah i understand . so we need some numbering buttons , some teletext things industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then um industrial designer: the yeah , the main is browsing . yeah . project manager: yes , but but but ab about the spec the buttons , the buttons uh that will be on it . i i think we can discuss that in the in the next meeting . user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: uh i would like to get this wrapped up and go to an end of this meeting . user interface: okay . project manager: so user interface: okay , we are alread mm . mm . project manager: so industrial designer: okay . project manager: you know now the basic the basic things . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . project manager: well just just for the next meeting , um user interface: l project manager: well , uh , you wor yes , work on a design , keep it general , i mean so w we will be still fle flexible with maybe adding some functions . so industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: um you will be working on on technical function design , so user interface: yeah , sure . project manager: and uh you and you and uh uh uh well , think about requirements , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: eh ? does it need internet , or or do do we stay at basic basic television uh interface . user interface: stam . marketing: yeah . project manager: so , uh i think we should now all go work uh uh at this marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh you will be informed via email and other kind of communication . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . project manager: so next meeting will be in uh in thirty minutes uh . industrial designer: perfect . project manager: k keep it in mind .

user interface initially suggested that the remote control could also incorporate forward-looking features , like controlling personal video recorders . ui quickly jumped on board with focusing on regular features , however .

summarize the discussion about cost constraints and financial targets of the new remote control project . </s> user interface: okay . industrial designer: or you get it . okay . user interface: no i do n't think so it has to be like that yeah and you have to adjust the length . okay , and then . project manager: so we uh we will wait for anna , a few minutes . user interface: yeah , s yeah , um . industrial designer: mm . yours is well user interface: i think you can put anywhere you want , actually . i thin industrial designer: yeah but the the mic should not user interface: it 's not a directional mic , anyway . project manager: i think it should work like this . industrial designer: user interface: uh . project manager: so i will try to get my presentation running . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm . industrial designer: mm . ca n't help you with that . user interface: last . project manager: it 's no matter . industrial designer: okay , it 's y yeah . project manager: no problem . ah yes . industrial designer: right . user interface: okay . industrial designer: then press uh al user interface: okay . industrial designer: this . project manager: i do n't know . industrial designer: you know ? project manager: just try . user interface: 'kay . project manager: on this normal industrial designer: oh oh . user interface: alt f_ five . project manager: good . does n't appear on the screen here . industrial designer: right well project manager: oh . industrial designer: wow . amazing . it 's working . project manager: okay . thank you . uh . marketing: hold that . okay . project manager: yes and you can put can clip it uh on your marketing: okay . mm . project manager: somewhere . so , good morning , everyone . um welcome at uh at the kick off meeting of our uh latest project . industrial designer: project manager: i hope you all have been uh updated about it . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: good . user interface: so . yes . project manager: so w we will try to structure this uh meeting with an a with an agenda uh as presented here . um after the opening we will tr get acquainted to each other . user interface: project manager: see what our roles are in this project . so , um we have been provided with uh some uh w technical tools to uh to communicate and to well , learn from each other 's plans uh as i can say um so w we will also try to uh to get acquainted to this tools so they are also new to me i do n't know whether you worked with them before . um then we will come to the uh to the to the actual project plan . you all know i hope how it 's about uh the uh new r remote control we are going going to design . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: total . project manager: uh then we will uh discuss uh , well , how it should be and uh wh what uh what our new product should look lite like . and uh well then uh after some twenty five minutes i hope uh we can end this meeting . so . um basically this is about a uh a new c remote control . um we when you design a new product you of uh you of course want it to be original . be uh we want to be distinguished , mm ? people uh want to uh when they look at the shelf want to think , well that 's the product i i need . so it needs to be trendy . i mean trendy is what people want , so then i w they will buy our product . but then , uh , it also should work uh user friendly and uh otherwise people uh uh well it will not be uh be rated very well in consumer uh articles and like that . industrial designer: project manager: so , the general outline of uh new project will be we first uh go through a functional design phase . um you all get uh um certain task uh in this uh in this phase and uh then we will meet again and uh discuss this functional design . and the same holds for the uh ph two phases uh after this , the conceptual design and after that a a more detailed design in which the the final project should get its definite shape . alright , but first we will do some uh tool training . in all in front of you uh you see uh the uh notebooks and w uh n note blocks and we have here a a a a white-board . user interface: whitebo marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and um well it should work uh i 've read it from my uh from some colleague that it should work with some kind of toolbar . i did n't find out yet how it work , but maybe one of you did , so um industrial designer: under documents in the shared folder . okay . project manager: yes . do do we have to say something about that ? i i i 'm not fully updated about this shared folder uh . industrial designer: yeah , i guess we 'll have a shared folder uh with documents that we can share . and uh , yeah . project manager: yes well we will then find out ho how it works . industrial designer: yes . project manager: um . well , this seems to me , yes , some computer program but i did n't find it yet . so , we 'll come to that later . so , uh now we will try out the white-board we have here . so , i would suggest uh industrial designer: each of us is going . project manager: well , yes , um we uh we should try to t to draw on it and then well it should be smart some way . i i 'm not really sure how this works , but industrial designer: okay , shall i start ? marketing: mm . yeah . project manager: yes , user interface: yeah , project manager: a good idea mael . user interface: you can start it you know . marketing: i think for us it 's just like a normal whiteboard , but they 'll be recording what we write down . industrial designer: so , i user interface: no they will record through that . there 's a sensor over there marketing: mm . mm . user interface: which is going to record the strokes that you make . marketing: but for us it 's just like a normal whiteboard . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'kay . user interface: industrial designer: but it 's marketing: industrial designer: actually , i think i can not go with uh project manager: you you d does n't it work ? maybe someo maybe maybe anna , maybe you can start . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: then he can maybe find out to get his cord right . marketing: i have to draw . project manager: so um l why do n't you draw uh your favourite animal on on th on the white-board . industrial designer: marketing: m my my favourite animal . sorry this is all tangled up here . project manager: oh , i see uh marketing: that 's better . user interface: yeah . marketing: project manager: yeah . yes . mm . so draw it . we will try to guess what it is . marketing: mm-hmm . i 'm a very bad drawer . project manager: marketing: weird . um . you 're not gon na be able to guess from my drawing . i 'm a bad drawer . okay . project manager: mm . marketing: they 're ears , by the way . user interface: 's a cat . marketing: no . um close though . okay so like a pet animal . industrial designer: okay . marketing: like a cat . user interface: yeah . project manager: it 's like a cat , so i guess it 's a cat . marketing: no , not a cat though . project manager: what is this now ? user interface: ah you forget about it . industrial designer: you 're on the knife . user interface: yeah , uh i think it 's fine . i just do n't want to carry it off . man , this wires , eh ? we need a wireless microphone . industrial designer: user interface: you know ? pro specially we should next project we should take l like that . marketing: okay . so . project manager: so , marketing: it 's not a cat , project manager: that 's the cat . marketing: it 's a dog . project manager: oh . user interface: so . industrial designer: mael . project manager: it 's a dog . marketing: yes . project manager: so but that 's also kind of cat , user interface: oh project manager: is n't it ? user interface: the dog does n't have a tail ? marketing: it 's got a tail then . project manager: b bo both predators . user interface: yeah , sure , yeah . marketing: yeah yeah . user interface: i thought so . the dogs have a tail . marketing: so do cats . project manager: so , thank you . uh d did you uh work out cord ? industrial designer: user interface: marketing: and you guessed cats without a tail . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , i think i will go without without it , marketing: okay . project manager: okay . industrial designer: right ? user interface: it 'll still not extend , right ? it 's not up to that . marketing: okay , there you go . so what favourite characteristics . uh . dogs are always friendly and loyal and fun . a horse ? user interface: it 's a horse . marketing: this is why you 're the designer . and i 'm marketing . project manager: yes . yes , yes this is yes definitely a horse . yes . oh very good . so marketing: ah project manager: i suppose it user interface: ah i think you can put that . marketing: mm-hmm . that 's it . a blue and black zebra . user interface: marketing: project manager: yes . can you can meet them in africa , i think . yes . very good . so marketing: the very rare blue zebras . yes . user interface: i 'll tell to get it off my project manager: ma matthew ? user interface: uh ? mm-hmm . project manager: so marketing: you got a lot of room here . project manager: maybe marketing: you can probably reach . user interface: oh y it 's not for that . marketing: no ? user interface: no . project manager: i hope you have some space in your uh the horse of uh mael . user interface: okay . yeah . so what should i draw ? mm . he has already to do cat . marketing: i took a dog . industrial designer: marketing: um . a mouse ? project manager: this looks likes a cat who has been driven over . marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: and we should sum up its favourite charas characteristics , right ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yes , the moustache . industrial designer: so project manager: that 's that 's definitely a cat . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh yeah . and i th they like to sleep , that 's why you said you they are like this . project manager: it 's quite , you know relaxed situation . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yes , okay . marketing: industrial designer: she has the small legs . project manager: th thank you , matthew . industrial designer: yeah . thank you , matthew . marketing: it 's a very big rat . or a very small cat . project manager: industrial designer: perfect . oh a rat , okay . project manager: yes , this is certain uh some contribution to our project . marketing: mm 'kay . industrial designer: and you , marketing: your turn . project manager: so . let 's see . which animal has not been drawn yet . so you 've all drawn land animals , marketing: project manager: so why not draw an animal from the water . industrial designer: a bird . okay , in the water . marketing: ah i do n't know what that is . it 's a bit industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm . marketing: it 's a bit hard to guess . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: user interface: so industrial designer: put it colours . maybe it would help us . marketing: yeah . project manager: yes . user interface: the cat is going to eat the fish or the rat ? industrial designer: with different pen widths . marketing: mm-hmm. $ project manager: so marketing: oh , it 's a shark now . industrial designer: ah it 's a shark , yeah . marketing: project manager: oh , yes , why not ? industrial designer: project manager: good idea . user interface: ah it 's a baby shark , it looks to me , marketing: mm . user interface: you know it 's going to eat the cat rather than the cat eating the fish , no ? industrial designer: oh . marketing: now it 's a swordfish . project manager: why not . a swordfish . marketing: industrial designer: you have some in in australia , right ? marketing: swordfish . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , maybe . industrial designer: i dunno . marketing: i 've never seen one , no . industrial designer: oh well . yeah . project manager: i hope it still works . so industrial designer: perfect . so i dunno if we need to spend time on that , actually but uh user interface: you should go for the next one it seems to me . project manager: w well , this uh this tool seemed to work . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , exactly , yeah . project manager: let 's continue to uh to the real stuff . industrial designer: wow . project manager: um our project uh finance uh thing . uh when we are and when w you are uh going to design w uh we must keep in mind that the selling price of the product uh will be about twenty five euros , so when designing a project uh i also look at you uh mael , keep in mind uh uh uh people uh user interface: twenty four . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: want to get the feeling this is a twenty five euro project uh pr um product . industrial designer: per remote control , marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah ? per project . project manager: yes . okay . um industrial designer: project manager: more interesting for our company of course , p uh profit aim , about fifty million euro . so we have to sell uh quite a lot of this uh um things . uh we will try to uh to get at a international market uh so um it will be i think mainly europe and uh northern america , user interface: ah yeah , the sale man , four million . project manager: maybe some uh asian countries . um also important for you all is um the the product uh production cost must be maximal uh twelve uh twelve euro and fifty cents . industrial designer: so it 's half of the selling price , if i am good in mathematics . project manager: yes , of course . uh um i mean we still have to uh to make a profit , huh ? user interface: they have to sell at least four million to make a profit industrial designer: of course . marketing: mm . project manager: you all have to be paid . marketing: mm . project manager: excuse me ? user interface: ah we have to make we have to sell at least four million to make our own profit . fifty mill industrial designer: oh you 're g very good in mathematics . marketing: yes . user interface: project manager: yes , indeed . user interface: industrial designer: four million . project manager: so uh well i think w when we are working on the international market , uh in principle it has enough customers industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh so when we have a good product we uh we could uh meet this this aim , i think . so , that about finance . and uh now just let have some discussion about what is a good remote control and uh well keep in mind this this first point , it has to be original , it has to be trendy , it has to be user friendly . um , maybe someone can mention some additional uh prerequisites for a good remote control . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: of course it should have a on off button . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yes , well i it should have the the the the expected functionality uh of a remote control . marketing: mm . yeah . user interface: yeah , s and it depends what application you are using it for . marketing: mm . user interface: you might need uh project manager: we wer we were thinking television . uh . marketing: mm . user interface: we are targ targeting the television set . so , marketing: mm . user interface: you need to record the channels . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: you need to browse the browse the channels in upward downward way , marketing: mm . project manager: yes , yes . th th that 's very handy i i always miss it and on some remote controls that you can go channel up or down ins instead of retyping the number , especially when you have a lot of channels . user interface: uh and marketing: mm . mm . user interface: uh , and industrial designer: and uh just before starting the detailed discussion , maybe we are the marketing guy ? or marketing: i 'm marketing . user interface: marketing . industrial designer: th so you are the marketing . marketing: yep . industrial designer: and you are in the u use user interface uh design . user interface: yeah . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so just yeah i wanted to to be sure . user interface: sure . industrial designer: and i i 'm the the industrial designer marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yes . user interface: industrial designer: okay . user interface: oh . industrial designer: because i i do n't know you very well , actually , but yeah . user interface: i 'm matthew . you know . industrial designer: okay . mael . user interface: matth s uh industrial designer: happy to meet you . marketing: anna . user interface: anna . industrial designer: okay . it 's very uh project manager: a and i 'm nanne . user interface: and um uh matthew , yeah . project manager: so user interface: i thi think you know me , industrial designer: uh so yeah uh just uh on your web page but uh yeah not uh not face to face . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah ? right yeah . project manager: so . um s user interface: so . industrial designer: so mm project manager: s s marketing: mm . project manager: are there some other very important things to to do well , user interface: so industrial designer: so i project manager: to specify in this first phase of of the project . so the browse function , as you m mentioned . marketing: mm . yeah . oth yeah . user interface: and uh , you 'd need the usual ones , like the changing the volume , changing the the channel and then you uh project manager: yes . yeah . user interface: today we have uh um teletext and all those things . tomorrow you might have a some more functions which might come through that , so project manager: yes . industrial designer: like what ? like internet on the on tv ? marketing: mm . user interface: yeah i_p_o_ or . now we are looking for television things or i_p_ . for example personal video recorder and all those stuffs are coming up . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . but we ca n't really design for something that has n't been invented yet . user interface: yeah . ah it 's it 's it 's it 's coming up , actually . the personal video recorder and all those things it is coming up . project manager: mm , well uh i i think uh w y you two should should , i think , think this over uh w espec what , what functionality . industrial designer: actually , yeah user interface: let 's let 's take industrial designer: w of course , and first before um designing the func well thinking about the functionalities , we need to know what are the user requirements . marketing: mm . yeah . industrial designer: um then if they need internet , then we would be able to to p to propose something with uh uh tv over i_p_ . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . mm . yeah . but ninety percent of the time , ninety nine percent of the time , people will be using the main functions , the volume , the different channels , so we can have all the fancy things as well but the main controls need to be very obvious and very easy to use . project manager: mm mm mm . keep k keep in mind i it 's a it 's a twenty five euro unit , so uh uh the the very fancy stuff uh w we can leave that out , i think . marketing: mm . project manager: so twenty five euro you expect a quite , well normal but good functioning user friendly remote control . marketing: mm . user interface: oh in that case you can you always hook up with uh someone who is providing that and you know , you you sell their product as well as your product with them , you know . marketing: mm . so try and get tv manufacturers to user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , but w w we want to design a new one . mm . user interface: no , it 's okay , yeah i understand . so we need some numbering buttons , some teletext things industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then um industrial designer: the yeah , the main is browsing . yeah . project manager: yes , but but but ab about the spec the buttons , the buttons uh that will be on it . i i think we can discuss that in the in the next meeting . user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: uh i would like to get this wrapped up and go to an end of this meeting . user interface: okay . project manager: so user interface: okay , we are alread mm . mm . project manager: so industrial designer: okay . project manager: you know now the basic the basic things . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . project manager: well just just for the next meeting , um user interface: l project manager: well , uh , you wor yes , work on a design , keep it general , i mean so w we will be still fle flexible with maybe adding some functions . so industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: um you will be working on on technical function design , so user interface: yeah , sure . project manager: and uh you and you and uh uh uh well , think about requirements , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: eh ? does it need internet , or or do do we stay at basic basic television uh interface . user interface: stam . marketing: yeah . project manager: so , uh i think we should now all go work uh uh at this marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh you will be informed via email and other kind of communication . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . project manager: so next meeting will be in uh in thirty minutes uh . industrial designer: perfect . project manager: k keep it in mind .

the remote control would be priced at 25 euros , produced at a maximum cost of 12.5 euros , and primarily marketed in europe and north america . at least 4 million units would have to be sold to meet the company 's profit goals .

what did project manager think of the cost constraints and financial targets of the new remote control project ? </s> user interface: okay . industrial designer: or you get it . okay . user interface: no i do n't think so it has to be like that yeah and you have to adjust the length . okay , and then . project manager: so we uh we will wait for anna , a few minutes . user interface: yeah , s yeah , um . industrial designer: mm . yours is well user interface: i think you can put anywhere you want , actually . i thin industrial designer: yeah but the the mic should not user interface: it 's not a directional mic , anyway . project manager: i think it should work like this . industrial designer: user interface: uh . project manager: so i will try to get my presentation running . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm . industrial designer: mm . ca n't help you with that . user interface: last . project manager: it 's no matter . industrial designer: okay , it 's y yeah . project manager: no problem . ah yes . industrial designer: right . user interface: okay . industrial designer: then press uh al user interface: okay . industrial designer: this . project manager: i do n't know . industrial designer: you know ? project manager: just try . user interface: 'kay . project manager: on this normal industrial designer: oh oh . user interface: alt f_ five . project manager: good . does n't appear on the screen here . industrial designer: right well project manager: oh . industrial designer: wow . amazing . it 's working . project manager: okay . thank you . uh . marketing: hold that . okay . project manager: yes and you can put can clip it uh on your marketing: okay . mm . project manager: somewhere . so , good morning , everyone . um welcome at uh at the kick off meeting of our uh latest project . industrial designer: project manager: i hope you all have been uh updated about it . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: good . user interface: so . yes . project manager: so w we will try to structure this uh meeting with an a with an agenda uh as presented here . um after the opening we will tr get acquainted to each other . user interface: project manager: see what our roles are in this project . so , um we have been provided with uh some uh w technical tools to uh to communicate and to well , learn from each other 's plans uh as i can say um so w we will also try to uh to get acquainted to this tools so they are also new to me i do n't know whether you worked with them before . um then we will come to the uh to the to the actual project plan . you all know i hope how it 's about uh the uh new r remote control we are going going to design . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: total . project manager: uh then we will uh discuss uh , well , how it should be and uh wh what uh what our new product should look lite like . and uh well then uh after some twenty five minutes i hope uh we can end this meeting . so . um basically this is about a uh a new c remote control . um we when you design a new product you of uh you of course want it to be original . be uh we want to be distinguished , mm ? people uh want to uh when they look at the shelf want to think , well that 's the product i i need . so it needs to be trendy . i mean trendy is what people want , so then i w they will buy our product . but then , uh , it also should work uh user friendly and uh otherwise people uh uh well it will not be uh be rated very well in consumer uh articles and like that . industrial designer: project manager: so , the general outline of uh new project will be we first uh go through a functional design phase . um you all get uh um certain task uh in this uh in this phase and uh then we will meet again and uh discuss this functional design . and the same holds for the uh ph two phases uh after this , the conceptual design and after that a a more detailed design in which the the final project should get its definite shape . alright , but first we will do some uh tool training . in all in front of you uh you see uh the uh notebooks and w uh n note blocks and we have here a a a a white-board . user interface: whitebo marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and um well it should work uh i 've read it from my uh from some colleague that it should work with some kind of toolbar . i did n't find out yet how it work , but maybe one of you did , so um industrial designer: under documents in the shared folder . okay . project manager: yes . do do we have to say something about that ? i i i 'm not fully updated about this shared folder uh . industrial designer: yeah , i guess we 'll have a shared folder uh with documents that we can share . and uh , yeah . project manager: yes well we will then find out ho how it works . industrial designer: yes . project manager: um . well , this seems to me , yes , some computer program but i did n't find it yet . so , we 'll come to that later . so , uh now we will try out the white-board we have here . so , i would suggest uh industrial designer: each of us is going . project manager: well , yes , um we uh we should try to t to draw on it and then well it should be smart some way . i i 'm not really sure how this works , but industrial designer: okay , shall i start ? marketing: mm . yeah . project manager: yes , user interface: yeah , project manager: a good idea mael . user interface: you can start it you know . marketing: i think for us it 's just like a normal whiteboard , but they 'll be recording what we write down . industrial designer: so , i user interface: no they will record through that . there 's a sensor over there marketing: mm . mm . user interface: which is going to record the strokes that you make . marketing: but for us it 's just like a normal whiteboard . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'kay . user interface: industrial designer: but it 's marketing: industrial designer: actually , i think i can not go with uh project manager: you you d does n't it work ? maybe someo maybe maybe anna , maybe you can start . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: then he can maybe find out to get his cord right . marketing: i have to draw . project manager: so um l why do n't you draw uh your favourite animal on on th on the white-board . industrial designer: marketing: m my my favourite animal . sorry this is all tangled up here . project manager: oh , i see uh marketing: that 's better . user interface: yeah . marketing: project manager: yeah . yes . mm . so draw it . we will try to guess what it is . marketing: mm-hmm . i 'm a very bad drawer . project manager: marketing: weird . um . you 're not gon na be able to guess from my drawing . i 'm a bad drawer . okay . project manager: mm . marketing: they 're ears , by the way . user interface: 's a cat . marketing: no . um close though . okay so like a pet animal . industrial designer: okay . marketing: like a cat . user interface: yeah . project manager: it 's like a cat , so i guess it 's a cat . marketing: no , not a cat though . project manager: what is this now ? user interface: ah you forget about it . industrial designer: you 're on the knife . user interface: yeah , uh i think it 's fine . i just do n't want to carry it off . man , this wires , eh ? we need a wireless microphone . industrial designer: user interface: you know ? pro specially we should next project we should take l like that . marketing: okay . so . project manager: so , marketing: it 's not a cat , project manager: that 's the cat . marketing: it 's a dog . project manager: oh . user interface: so . industrial designer: mael . project manager: it 's a dog . marketing: yes . project manager: so but that 's also kind of cat , user interface: oh project manager: is n't it ? user interface: the dog does n't have a tail ? marketing: it 's got a tail then . project manager: b bo both predators . user interface: yeah , sure , yeah . marketing: yeah yeah . user interface: i thought so . the dogs have a tail . marketing: so do cats . project manager: so , thank you . uh d did you uh work out cord ? industrial designer: user interface: marketing: and you guessed cats without a tail . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , i think i will go without without it , marketing: okay . project manager: okay . industrial designer: right ? user interface: it 'll still not extend , right ? it 's not up to that . marketing: okay , there you go . so what favourite characteristics . uh . dogs are always friendly and loyal and fun . a horse ? user interface: it 's a horse . marketing: this is why you 're the designer . and i 'm marketing . project manager: yes . yes , yes this is yes definitely a horse . yes . oh very good . so marketing: ah project manager: i suppose it user interface: ah i think you can put that . marketing: mm-hmm . that 's it . a blue and black zebra . user interface: marketing: project manager: yes . can you can meet them in africa , i think . yes . very good . so marketing: the very rare blue zebras . yes . user interface: i 'll tell to get it off my project manager: ma matthew ? user interface: uh ? mm-hmm . project manager: so marketing: you got a lot of room here . project manager: maybe marketing: you can probably reach . user interface: oh y it 's not for that . marketing: no ? user interface: no . project manager: i hope you have some space in your uh the horse of uh mael . user interface: okay . yeah . so what should i draw ? mm . he has already to do cat . marketing: i took a dog . industrial designer: marketing: um . a mouse ? project manager: this looks likes a cat who has been driven over . marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: and we should sum up its favourite charas characteristics , right ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yes , the moustache . industrial designer: so project manager: that 's that 's definitely a cat . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh yeah . and i th they like to sleep , that 's why you said you they are like this . project manager: it 's quite , you know relaxed situation . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yes , okay . marketing: industrial designer: she has the small legs . project manager: th thank you , matthew . industrial designer: yeah . thank you , matthew . marketing: it 's a very big rat . or a very small cat . project manager: industrial designer: perfect . oh a rat , okay . project manager: yes , this is certain uh some contribution to our project . marketing: mm 'kay . industrial designer: and you , marketing: your turn . project manager: so . let 's see . which animal has not been drawn yet . so you 've all drawn land animals , marketing: project manager: so why not draw an animal from the water . industrial designer: a bird . okay , in the water . marketing: ah i do n't know what that is . it 's a bit industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm . marketing: it 's a bit hard to guess . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: user interface: so industrial designer: put it colours . maybe it would help us . marketing: yeah . project manager: yes . user interface: the cat is going to eat the fish or the rat ? industrial designer: with different pen widths . marketing: mm-hmm. $ project manager: so marketing: oh , it 's a shark now . industrial designer: ah it 's a shark , yeah . marketing: project manager: oh , yes , why not ? industrial designer: project manager: good idea . user interface: ah it 's a baby shark , it looks to me , marketing: mm . user interface: you know it 's going to eat the cat rather than the cat eating the fish , no ? industrial designer: oh . marketing: now it 's a swordfish . project manager: why not . a swordfish . marketing: industrial designer: you have some in in australia , right ? marketing: swordfish . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , maybe . industrial designer: i dunno . marketing: i 've never seen one , no . industrial designer: oh well . yeah . project manager: i hope it still works . so industrial designer: perfect . so i dunno if we need to spend time on that , actually but uh user interface: you should go for the next one it seems to me . project manager: w well , this uh this tool seemed to work . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , exactly , yeah . project manager: let 's continue to uh to the real stuff . industrial designer: wow . project manager: um our project uh finance uh thing . uh when we are and when w you are uh going to design w uh we must keep in mind that the selling price of the product uh will be about twenty five euros , so when designing a project uh i also look at you uh mael , keep in mind uh uh uh people uh user interface: twenty four . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: want to get the feeling this is a twenty five euro project uh pr um product . industrial designer: per remote control , marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah ? per project . project manager: yes . okay . um industrial designer: project manager: more interesting for our company of course , p uh profit aim , about fifty million euro . so we have to sell uh quite a lot of this uh um things . uh we will try to uh to get at a international market uh so um it will be i think mainly europe and uh northern america , user interface: ah yeah , the sale man , four million . project manager: maybe some uh asian countries . um also important for you all is um the the product uh production cost must be maximal uh twelve uh twelve euro and fifty cents . industrial designer: so it 's half of the selling price , if i am good in mathematics . project manager: yes , of course . uh um i mean we still have to uh to make a profit , huh ? user interface: they have to sell at least four million to make a profit industrial designer: of course . marketing: mm . project manager: you all have to be paid . marketing: mm . project manager: excuse me ? user interface: ah we have to make we have to sell at least four million to make our own profit . fifty mill industrial designer: oh you 're g very good in mathematics . marketing: yes . user interface: project manager: yes , indeed . user interface: industrial designer: four million . project manager: so uh well i think w when we are working on the international market , uh in principle it has enough customers industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh so when we have a good product we uh we could uh meet this this aim , i think . so , that about finance . and uh now just let have some discussion about what is a good remote control and uh well keep in mind this this first point , it has to be original , it has to be trendy , it has to be user friendly . um , maybe someone can mention some additional uh prerequisites for a good remote control . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: of course it should have a on off button . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yes , well i it should have the the the the expected functionality uh of a remote control . marketing: mm . yeah . user interface: yeah , s and it depends what application you are using it for . marketing: mm . user interface: you might need uh project manager: we wer we were thinking television . uh . marketing: mm . user interface: we are targ targeting the television set . so , marketing: mm . user interface: you need to record the channels . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: you need to browse the browse the channels in upward downward way , marketing: mm . project manager: yes , yes . th th that 's very handy i i always miss it and on some remote controls that you can go channel up or down ins instead of retyping the number , especially when you have a lot of channels . user interface: uh and marketing: mm . mm . user interface: uh , and industrial designer: and uh just before starting the detailed discussion , maybe we are the marketing guy ? or marketing: i 'm marketing . user interface: marketing . industrial designer: th so you are the marketing . marketing: yep . industrial designer: and you are in the u use user interface uh design . user interface: yeah . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so just yeah i wanted to to be sure . user interface: sure . industrial designer: and i i 'm the the industrial designer marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yes . user interface: industrial designer: okay . user interface: oh . industrial designer: because i i do n't know you very well , actually , but yeah . user interface: i 'm matthew . you know . industrial designer: okay . mael . user interface: matth s uh industrial designer: happy to meet you . marketing: anna . user interface: anna . industrial designer: okay . it 's very uh project manager: a and i 'm nanne . user interface: and um uh matthew , yeah . project manager: so user interface: i thi think you know me , industrial designer: uh so yeah uh just uh on your web page but uh yeah not uh not face to face . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah ? right yeah . project manager: so . um s user interface: so . industrial designer: so mm project manager: s s marketing: mm . project manager: are there some other very important things to to do well , user interface: so industrial designer: so i project manager: to specify in this first phase of of the project . so the browse function , as you m mentioned . marketing: mm . yeah . oth yeah . user interface: and uh , you 'd need the usual ones , like the changing the volume , changing the the channel and then you uh project manager: yes . yeah . user interface: today we have uh um teletext and all those things . tomorrow you might have a some more functions which might come through that , so project manager: yes . industrial designer: like what ? like internet on the on tv ? marketing: mm . user interface: yeah i_p_o_ or . now we are looking for television things or i_p_ . for example personal video recorder and all those stuffs are coming up . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . but we ca n't really design for something that has n't been invented yet . user interface: yeah . ah it 's it 's it 's it 's coming up , actually . the personal video recorder and all those things it is coming up . project manager: mm , well uh i i think uh w y you two should should , i think , think this over uh w espec what , what functionality . industrial designer: actually , yeah user interface: let 's let 's take industrial designer: w of course , and first before um designing the func well thinking about the functionalities , we need to know what are the user requirements . marketing: mm . yeah . industrial designer: um then if they need internet , then we would be able to to p to propose something with uh uh tv over i_p_ . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . mm . yeah . but ninety percent of the time , ninety nine percent of the time , people will be using the main functions , the volume , the different channels , so we can have all the fancy things as well but the main controls need to be very obvious and very easy to use . project manager: mm mm mm . keep k keep in mind i it 's a it 's a twenty five euro unit , so uh uh the the very fancy stuff uh w we can leave that out , i think . marketing: mm . project manager: so twenty five euro you expect a quite , well normal but good functioning user friendly remote control . marketing: mm . user interface: oh in that case you can you always hook up with uh someone who is providing that and you know , you you sell their product as well as your product with them , you know . marketing: mm . so try and get tv manufacturers to user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , but w w we want to design a new one . mm . user interface: no , it 's okay , yeah i understand . so we need some numbering buttons , some teletext things industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then um industrial designer: the yeah , the main is browsing . yeah . project manager: yes , but but but ab about the spec the buttons , the buttons uh that will be on it . i i think we can discuss that in the in the next meeting . user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: uh i would like to get this wrapped up and go to an end of this meeting . user interface: okay . project manager: so user interface: okay , we are alread mm . mm . project manager: so industrial designer: okay . project manager: you know now the basic the basic things . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . project manager: well just just for the next meeting , um user interface: l project manager: well , uh , you wor yes , work on a design , keep it general , i mean so w we will be still fle flexible with maybe adding some functions . so industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: um you will be working on on technical function design , so user interface: yeah , sure . project manager: and uh you and you and uh uh uh well , think about requirements , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: eh ? does it need internet , or or do do we stay at basic basic television uh interface . user interface: stam . marketing: yeah . project manager: so , uh i think we should now all go work uh uh at this marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh you will be informed via email and other kind of communication . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . project manager: so next meeting will be in uh in thirty minutes uh . industrial designer: perfect . project manager: k keep it in mind .

project manager introduced the financial information : 25 euro selling price and 12.5 euro production cost . pm then went on to elaborate that the target market would primarily consist of europe and north america . pm expressed that a profit aim of 50 million euros , which could be achieved by selling 4 million of these remotes , was achievable .

what did user interface think of cost constraints and financial targets of the new remote control project ? </s> user interface: okay . industrial designer: or you get it . okay . user interface: no i do n't think so it has to be like that yeah and you have to adjust the length . okay , and then . project manager: so we uh we will wait for anna , a few minutes . user interface: yeah , s yeah , um . industrial designer: mm . yours is well user interface: i think you can put anywhere you want , actually . i thin industrial designer: yeah but the the mic should not user interface: it 's not a directional mic , anyway . project manager: i think it should work like this . industrial designer: user interface: uh . project manager: so i will try to get my presentation running . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm . industrial designer: mm . ca n't help you with that . user interface: last . project manager: it 's no matter . industrial designer: okay , it 's y yeah . project manager: no problem . ah yes . industrial designer: right . user interface: okay . industrial designer: then press uh al user interface: okay . industrial designer: this . project manager: i do n't know . industrial designer: you know ? project manager: just try . user interface: 'kay . project manager: on this normal industrial designer: oh oh . user interface: alt f_ five . project manager: good . does n't appear on the screen here . industrial designer: right well project manager: oh . industrial designer: wow . amazing . it 's working . project manager: okay . thank you . uh . marketing: hold that . okay . project manager: yes and you can put can clip it uh on your marketing: okay . mm . project manager: somewhere . so , good morning , everyone . um welcome at uh at the kick off meeting of our uh latest project . industrial designer: project manager: i hope you all have been uh updated about it . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: good . user interface: so . yes . project manager: so w we will try to structure this uh meeting with an a with an agenda uh as presented here . um after the opening we will tr get acquainted to each other . user interface: project manager: see what our roles are in this project . so , um we have been provided with uh some uh w technical tools to uh to communicate and to well , learn from each other 's plans uh as i can say um so w we will also try to uh to get acquainted to this tools so they are also new to me i do n't know whether you worked with them before . um then we will come to the uh to the to the actual project plan . you all know i hope how it 's about uh the uh new r remote control we are going going to design . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: total . project manager: uh then we will uh discuss uh , well , how it should be and uh wh what uh what our new product should look lite like . and uh well then uh after some twenty five minutes i hope uh we can end this meeting . so . um basically this is about a uh a new c remote control . um we when you design a new product you of uh you of course want it to be original . be uh we want to be distinguished , mm ? people uh want to uh when they look at the shelf want to think , well that 's the product i i need . so it needs to be trendy . i mean trendy is what people want , so then i w they will buy our product . but then , uh , it also should work uh user friendly and uh otherwise people uh uh well it will not be uh be rated very well in consumer uh articles and like that . industrial designer: project manager: so , the general outline of uh new project will be we first uh go through a functional design phase . um you all get uh um certain task uh in this uh in this phase and uh then we will meet again and uh discuss this functional design . and the same holds for the uh ph two phases uh after this , the conceptual design and after that a a more detailed design in which the the final project should get its definite shape . alright , but first we will do some uh tool training . in all in front of you uh you see uh the uh notebooks and w uh n note blocks and we have here a a a a white-board . user interface: whitebo marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and um well it should work uh i 've read it from my uh from some colleague that it should work with some kind of toolbar . i did n't find out yet how it work , but maybe one of you did , so um industrial designer: under documents in the shared folder . okay . project manager: yes . do do we have to say something about that ? i i i 'm not fully updated about this shared folder uh . industrial designer: yeah , i guess we 'll have a shared folder uh with documents that we can share . and uh , yeah . project manager: yes well we will then find out ho how it works . industrial designer: yes . project manager: um . well , this seems to me , yes , some computer program but i did n't find it yet . so , we 'll come to that later . so , uh now we will try out the white-board we have here . so , i would suggest uh industrial designer: each of us is going . project manager: well , yes , um we uh we should try to t to draw on it and then well it should be smart some way . i i 'm not really sure how this works , but industrial designer: okay , shall i start ? marketing: mm . yeah . project manager: yes , user interface: yeah , project manager: a good idea mael . user interface: you can start it you know . marketing: i think for us it 's just like a normal whiteboard , but they 'll be recording what we write down . industrial designer: so , i user interface: no they will record through that . there 's a sensor over there marketing: mm . mm . user interface: which is going to record the strokes that you make . marketing: but for us it 's just like a normal whiteboard . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'kay . user interface: industrial designer: but it 's marketing: industrial designer: actually , i think i can not go with uh project manager: you you d does n't it work ? maybe someo maybe maybe anna , maybe you can start . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: then he can maybe find out to get his cord right . marketing: i have to draw . project manager: so um l why do n't you draw uh your favourite animal on on th on the white-board . industrial designer: marketing: m my my favourite animal . sorry this is all tangled up here . project manager: oh , i see uh marketing: that 's better . user interface: yeah . marketing: project manager: yeah . yes . mm . so draw it . we will try to guess what it is . marketing: mm-hmm . i 'm a very bad drawer . project manager: marketing: weird . um . you 're not gon na be able to guess from my drawing . i 'm a bad drawer . okay . project manager: mm . marketing: they 're ears , by the way . user interface: 's a cat . marketing: no . um close though . okay so like a pet animal . industrial designer: okay . marketing: like a cat . user interface: yeah . project manager: it 's like a cat , so i guess it 's a cat . marketing: no , not a cat though . project manager: what is this now ? user interface: ah you forget about it . industrial designer: you 're on the knife . user interface: yeah , uh i think it 's fine . i just do n't want to carry it off . man , this wires , eh ? we need a wireless microphone . industrial designer: user interface: you know ? pro specially we should next project we should take l like that . marketing: okay . so . project manager: so , marketing: it 's not a cat , project manager: that 's the cat . marketing: it 's a dog . project manager: oh . user interface: so . industrial designer: mael . project manager: it 's a dog . marketing: yes . project manager: so but that 's also kind of cat , user interface: oh project manager: is n't it ? user interface: the dog does n't have a tail ? marketing: it 's got a tail then . project manager: b bo both predators . user interface: yeah , sure , yeah . marketing: yeah yeah . user interface: i thought so . the dogs have a tail . marketing: so do cats . project manager: so , thank you . uh d did you uh work out cord ? industrial designer: user interface: marketing: and you guessed cats without a tail . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , i think i will go without without it , marketing: okay . project manager: okay . industrial designer: right ? user interface: it 'll still not extend , right ? it 's not up to that . marketing: okay , there you go . so what favourite characteristics . uh . dogs are always friendly and loyal and fun . a horse ? user interface: it 's a horse . marketing: this is why you 're the designer . and i 'm marketing . project manager: yes . yes , yes this is yes definitely a horse . yes . oh very good . so marketing: ah project manager: i suppose it user interface: ah i think you can put that . marketing: mm-hmm . that 's it . a blue and black zebra . user interface: marketing: project manager: yes . can you can meet them in africa , i think . yes . very good . so marketing: the very rare blue zebras . yes . user interface: i 'll tell to get it off my project manager: ma matthew ? user interface: uh ? mm-hmm . project manager: so marketing: you got a lot of room here . project manager: maybe marketing: you can probably reach . user interface: oh y it 's not for that . marketing: no ? user interface: no . project manager: i hope you have some space in your uh the horse of uh mael . user interface: okay . yeah . so what should i draw ? mm . he has already to do cat . marketing: i took a dog . industrial designer: marketing: um . a mouse ? project manager: this looks likes a cat who has been driven over . marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: and we should sum up its favourite charas characteristics , right ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yes , the moustache . industrial designer: so project manager: that 's that 's definitely a cat . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh yeah . and i th they like to sleep , that 's why you said you they are like this . project manager: it 's quite , you know relaxed situation . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yes , okay . marketing: industrial designer: she has the small legs . project manager: th thank you , matthew . industrial designer: yeah . thank you , matthew . marketing: it 's a very big rat . or a very small cat . project manager: industrial designer: perfect . oh a rat , okay . project manager: yes , this is certain uh some contribution to our project . marketing: mm 'kay . industrial designer: and you , marketing: your turn . project manager: so . let 's see . which animal has not been drawn yet . so you 've all drawn land animals , marketing: project manager: so why not draw an animal from the water . industrial designer: a bird . okay , in the water . marketing: ah i do n't know what that is . it 's a bit industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm . marketing: it 's a bit hard to guess . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: user interface: so industrial designer: put it colours . maybe it would help us . marketing: yeah . project manager: yes . user interface: the cat is going to eat the fish or the rat ? industrial designer: with different pen widths . marketing: mm-hmm. $ project manager: so marketing: oh , it 's a shark now . industrial designer: ah it 's a shark , yeah . marketing: project manager: oh , yes , why not ? industrial designer: project manager: good idea . user interface: ah it 's a baby shark , it looks to me , marketing: mm . user interface: you know it 's going to eat the cat rather than the cat eating the fish , no ? industrial designer: oh . marketing: now it 's a swordfish . project manager: why not . a swordfish . marketing: industrial designer: you have some in in australia , right ? marketing: swordfish . project manager: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , maybe . industrial designer: i dunno . marketing: i 've never seen one , no . industrial designer: oh well . yeah . project manager: i hope it still works . so industrial designer: perfect . so i dunno if we need to spend time on that , actually but uh user interface: you should go for the next one it seems to me . project manager: w well , this uh this tool seemed to work . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , exactly , yeah . project manager: let 's continue to uh to the real stuff . industrial designer: wow . project manager: um our project uh finance uh thing . uh when we are and when w you are uh going to design w uh we must keep in mind that the selling price of the product uh will be about twenty five euros , so when designing a project uh i also look at you uh mael , keep in mind uh uh uh people uh user interface: twenty four . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: want to get the feeling this is a twenty five euro project uh pr um product . industrial designer: per remote control , marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah ? per project . project manager: yes . okay . um industrial designer: project manager: more interesting for our company of course , p uh profit aim , about fifty million euro . so we have to sell uh quite a lot of this uh um things . uh we will try to uh to get at a international market uh so um it will be i think mainly europe and uh northern america , user interface: ah yeah , the sale man , four million . project manager: maybe some uh asian countries . um also important for you all is um the the product uh production cost must be maximal uh twelve uh twelve euro and fifty cents . industrial designer: so it 's half of the selling price , if i am good in mathematics . project manager: yes , of course . uh um i mean we still have to uh to make a profit , huh ? user interface: they have to sell at least four million to make a profit industrial designer: of course . marketing: mm . project manager: you all have to be paid . marketing: mm . project manager: excuse me ? user interface: ah we have to make we have to sell at least four million to make our own profit . fifty mill industrial designer: oh you 're g very good in mathematics . marketing: yes . user interface: project manager: yes , indeed . user interface: industrial designer: four million . project manager: so uh well i think w when we are working on the international market , uh in principle it has enough customers industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh so when we have a good product we uh we could uh meet this this aim , i think . so , that about finance . and uh now just let have some discussion about what is a good remote control and uh well keep in mind this this first point , it has to be original , it has to be trendy , it has to be user friendly . um , maybe someone can mention some additional uh prerequisites for a good remote control . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: of course it should have a on off button . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yes , well i it should have the the the the expected functionality uh of a remote control . marketing: mm . yeah . user interface: yeah , s and it depends what application you are using it for . marketing: mm . user interface: you might need uh project manager: we wer we were thinking television . uh . marketing: mm . user interface: we are targ targeting the television set . so , marketing: mm . user interface: you need to record the channels . marketing: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: you need to browse the browse the channels in upward downward way , marketing: mm . project manager: yes , yes . th th that 's very handy i i always miss it and on some remote controls that you can go channel up or down ins instead of retyping the number , especially when you have a lot of channels . user interface: uh and marketing: mm . mm . user interface: uh , and industrial designer: and uh just before starting the detailed discussion , maybe we are the marketing guy ? or marketing: i 'm marketing . user interface: marketing . industrial designer: th so you are the marketing . marketing: yep . industrial designer: and you are in the u use user interface uh design . user interface: yeah . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so just yeah i wanted to to be sure . user interface: sure . industrial designer: and i i 'm the the industrial designer marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yes . user interface: industrial designer: okay . user interface: oh . industrial designer: because i i do n't know you very well , actually , but yeah . user interface: i 'm matthew . you know . industrial designer: okay . mael . user interface: matth s uh industrial designer: happy to meet you . marketing: anna . user interface: anna . industrial designer: okay . it 's very uh project manager: a and i 'm nanne . user interface: and um uh matthew , yeah . project manager: so user interface: i thi think you know me , industrial designer: uh so yeah uh just uh on your web page but uh yeah not uh not face to face . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah ? right yeah . project manager: so . um s user interface: so . industrial designer: so mm project manager: s s marketing: mm . project manager: are there some other very important things to to do well , user interface: so industrial designer: so i project manager: to specify in this first phase of of the project . so the browse function , as you m mentioned . marketing: mm . yeah . oth yeah . user interface: and uh , you 'd need the usual ones , like the changing the volume , changing the the channel and then you uh project manager: yes . yeah . user interface: today we have uh um teletext and all those things . tomorrow you might have a some more functions which might come through that , so project manager: yes . industrial designer: like what ? like internet on the on tv ? marketing: mm . user interface: yeah i_p_o_ or . now we are looking for television things or i_p_ . for example personal video recorder and all those stuffs are coming up . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . but we ca n't really design for something that has n't been invented yet . user interface: yeah . ah it 's it 's it 's it 's coming up , actually . the personal video recorder and all those things it is coming up . project manager: mm , well uh i i think uh w y you two should should , i think , think this over uh w espec what , what functionality . industrial designer: actually , yeah user interface: let 's let 's take industrial designer: w of course , and first before um designing the func well thinking about the functionalities , we need to know what are the user requirements . marketing: mm . yeah . industrial designer: um then if they need internet , then we would be able to to p to propose something with uh uh tv over i_p_ . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . mm . yeah . but ninety percent of the time , ninety nine percent of the time , people will be using the main functions , the volume , the different channels , so we can have all the fancy things as well but the main controls need to be very obvious and very easy to use . project manager: mm mm mm . keep k keep in mind i it 's a it 's a twenty five euro unit , so uh uh the the very fancy stuff uh w we can leave that out , i think . marketing: mm . project manager: so twenty five euro you expect a quite , well normal but good functioning user friendly remote control . marketing: mm . user interface: oh in that case you can you always hook up with uh someone who is providing that and you know , you you sell their product as well as your product with them , you know . marketing: mm . so try and get tv manufacturers to user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , but w w we want to design a new one . mm . user interface: no , it 's okay , yeah i understand . so we need some numbering buttons , some teletext things industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then um industrial designer: the yeah , the main is browsing . yeah . project manager: yes , but but but ab about the spec the buttons , the buttons uh that will be on it . i i think we can discuss that in the in the next meeting . user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: uh i would like to get this wrapped up and go to an end of this meeting . user interface: okay . project manager: so user interface: okay , we are alread mm . mm . project manager: so industrial designer: okay . project manager: you know now the basic the basic things . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . project manager: well just just for the next meeting , um user interface: l project manager: well , uh , you wor yes , work on a design , keep it general , i mean so w we will be still fle flexible with maybe adding some functions . so industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: um you will be working on on technical function design , so user interface: yeah , sure . project manager: and uh you and you and uh uh uh well , think about requirements , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: eh ? does it need internet , or or do do we stay at basic basic television uh interface . user interface: stam . marketing: yeah . project manager: so , uh i think we should now all go work uh uh at this marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh you will be informed via email and other kind of communication . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . project manager: so next meeting will be in uh in thirty minutes uh . industrial designer: perfect . project manager: k keep it in mind .

user interface reiterated that the company would have to sell four million units to make a profit .

summarize the meeting </s> professor c: starts no . no . phd d: no . that 's a different thing . professor c: there 's another i do n't know . it starts with a p or something . i forget the word for it , but it 's it 's um phd d: oh . professor c: typically when you you 're ab r starting around forty for most people , it starts to harden and then it 's just harder for the lens to shift things phd d: oh . professor c: and th the the symptom is typically that you you have to hold stuff uh uh further away to to see it . phd e: uh - huh . yeah . professor c: in fact , uh m my brother 's a gerontological psychologist and he he uh came up with an an uh a uh body age test which uh gets down to sort of only three measurements that are good enough st statistical predictors of all the rest of it . and one of them is is the distance that you have to hold it at . phd d: give someone a piece of paper and then they oh . phd e: yeah . professor c: yeah . grad a: we 're we 're live by the way , so we 've got a good intro here professor c: oh . yeah . about how old i am . grad a: yep . professor c: ok . grad a: we can edit that out if you want . phd d: oh , that 's optional . professor c: no , that 's ok . grad a: ok . so . this time the form discussion should be very short , phd d: you know . phd e: mm - hmm . grad a: right ? professor c: it also should be later . grad a: ok . professor c: because jane uh is not here yet . grad a: good point . professor c: and uh she 'll be most interested in that . uh , she 's probably least involved in the signal - processing stuff so maybe we can just just uh , i do n't think we should go though an elaborate thing , but um uh jose and i were just talking about the uh uh , speech e energy thing , phd e: the @ @ professor c: and i uh phd e: yeah . professor c: we did n't talk about the derivatives . but i think , you know , the the i if i can if you do n't mind my my speaking for you for a bit , um uh . right now , that he 's not really showing any kind of uh distinction , but uh but we discussed a couple of the possible things that uh he can look at . um . and uh one is that uh this is all in log energy and log energy is basically compressing the distances uh between things . um another is that he needs to play with the the different uh uh temporal sizes . he was he he was taking everything over two hundred milliseconds uh , and uh he 's going to vary that number and also look at moving windows , as we discussed before . um and uh and the other thing is that the yeah doing the subtracting off the mean and the variance in the uh and dividing it by the standard deviation in the log domain , may not be the right thing to do . grad a: hi jane ! phd e: hi . grad a: we just started . phd e: yeah . grad a: could you take that mike there ? phd d: are these the long term means ? like , over the whole i mean , the means of what ? grad a: thanks . professor c: uh b between between phd d: all the frames in the conversation ? professor c: no . phd d: or of things that professor c: between neither . it 's uh between the pauses uh for some segment . phd e: no . phd d: oh . professor c: and so i i his his he 's making the constraint it has to be at least two hundred milliseconds . phd d: oh . professor c: and so you take that . and then he 's he 's uh measuring at the frame level still at the frame level , of what phd d: right . professor c: and then and then just uh normalizing with that larger amount . um and but one thing he was pointing out is when he he looked at a bunch of examples in log domain , it is actually pretty hard to see the change . and you can sort of see that , because of j of just putting it on the board that if you sort of have log - x plus log - x , that 's the log of x plus the log of two phd e: yep . phd d: yeah , maybe it 's not log distributed . phd e: mmm . yeah . professor c: and it 's just , you know , it it diminishes the effect of having two of them . phd e: professor c: um . phd d: but you could do like a c d f there instead ? i mean , we do n't know that the distribution here is normally . professor c: yes , right . so so what i was suggesting to him is that phd d: so just some kind of a simple professor c: actually , a pdf . but , you know , uh but , either way . phd d: pdf professor c: yeah . yeah , eith eith uh b phd d: yeah . phd e: yeah . phd d: something like that where it 's sort of data driven . professor c: yeah , but i think also u i think a good first indicator is when the the the researcher looks at examples of the data and can not see a change in how big the the signal is , when the two speaker phd e: yeah . yeah . professor c: then , that 's a problem right there . so . i think you should at least be able , phd d: oh yeah . professor c: doing casual looking and can get the sense , `` hey , there 's something there . `` and then you can play around with the measures . and when he 's looking in the log domain he 's not really seeing it . phd d: oh yeah . phd e: yeah . professor c: so . and when he 's looking in straight energy he is , so that 's a good place to start . phd e: yeah . professor c: um . so that was that was the discussion we just had . um . the other thing actually we ca had a question for adam in this . uh , when you did the sampling ? uh over the speech segments or s or sampling over the the individual channels in order to do the e uh the amplitude equalization , did you do it over just the entire everything in the mike channels ? phd e: how professor c: you did n't try to find speech ? grad a: no , i just took over the entire s uh entire channel um sampled ten minutes randomly . professor c: right , ok . so then that means that someone who did n't speak very much would be largely represented by silence . grad a: yep . professor c: and someone who would who would be so the normalization factor probably is i i i is is grad a: yeah , this was quite quick and dirty , and it was just for listening . phd e: yeah . professor c: yeah . grad a: and for listening it seems to work really well . professor c: ok . phd e: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd e: yeah . grad a: so . professor c: yeah . but that 's grad a: but , it 's not not a good measure . professor c: right . so th phd e: yeah . professor c: ok . so yeah there there there there 's a good chance then given that different people do talk different amounts that there is there there is still a lot more to be gained from gain norm normalization with some sort phd e: yeah . yeah . mmm . grad a: yes , absolutely . professor c: if if we can figure out a way to do it . phd e: yeah . professor c: uh . but we were agreed that in addition to that { comment } uh there should be s stuff related to pitch and harmonics and so forth . phd e: yeah . professor c: so we did n't talk at all about uh the other derivatives , but uh again just just looking at uh , i think uh liz has a very good point , that in fact it would be much more graphic just to show well , actually , you do have some distributions here , uh for these cases . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor c: you have some histograms , um and uh , they do n't look very separate . phd e: yeah . professor c: uh separated . phd e: this is the the first derivate of log of frame energy uh without any kind of normalization . phd d: what professor c: yeah . yeah . yeah . phd d: log energy . sorry . phd e: these the these are the the first experiments uh with comment uh phd d: frame energy . grad a: except that it 's hard to judge this because the they 're not normalized . it 's just number of frames . phd d: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd e: yeah . grad a: but yeah , even so . phd d: w i mean , what i meant is , even if you use linear , you know , raw measures , like raw energy or whatever , professor c: `` number `` phd d: maybe we should n't make any assumptions about the distribution 's shape , and just use you know , use the distribution to model the the mean , or what y you know , rather than the mean take some professor c: yeah . but and so in in these he 's got that . phd d: yeah . professor c: he 's got some pictures . but he does n't he does n't in the he i phd e: yeah . professor c: just in derivatives , but not in the phd d: yeah . oh . professor c: but he d but he does n't does n't phd d: right . so , we do n't know what they look like on the , tsk { comment } for the raw . professor c: but he did n't h have it for the energy . he had it for the derivatives . yeah . phd d: yeah . so . i mean , there might be something there . i do n't know . professor c: yeah . phd d: huh . grad a: interesting phd e: here i i professor c: oh that yeah that 's a good q phd e: in no i i i have n't the result professor c: did did you have this sort of thing , for just the just the l r uh the the unnormalized log energy ? ok . yeah . so she she 's right . phd e: but it 's the it 's the the the following . professor c: that 's a phd d: well it might be just good to know what it looks like . professor c: yeah . that 's that 's uh cuz i 'd mentioned scatter plots before but she 's right , phd d: cuz phd e: huh ? professor c: i mean , even before you get the scatter plots , just looking at a single feature uh , looking at the distribution , is a good thing to do . phd e: yeah . catal - uh combining the different possibilities of uh the parameters . i i i i mean the the the scatter plot combining eh different n two combination . professor c: yeah , but but what she 's saying is , which is right , is le phd e: combination of two , of energy and derivate professor c: i mean , let 's start with the before we get complicated , let 's start with the most basic wh thing , which is we 're arguing that if you take energy uh if you look at the energy , that , when two people are speaking at the same time , usually there 'll be more energy than when one is right ? phd e: yeah . professor c: that 's that sort of hypothesis . phd e: that 's right . professor c: and the first way you 'd look at that , uh s she 's , you know , absolutely right , is that you would just take a look at the distribution of those two things , much as you 've plotted them here , phd e: yeah . professor c: you know , but just but just just uh do it phd e: yeah . professor c: well in this case you have three . you have the silence , and that that 's fine . phd e: yeah . professor c: so , uh with three colors or three shades or whatever , just just look at those distributions . phd e: yeah . professor c: and then , given that as a base , you can see if that gets improved , you know , or or or worsened by the looking at regular energy , looking at log energy , we were just proposing that maybe it 's you know , it 's harder to see with the log energy , um and uh also these different normalizations , does a particular choice of normalization make it better ? phd e: yeah . professor c: but i had maybe made it too complicated by suggesting early on , that you look at scatter plots because that 's looking at a distribution in two dimensions . let 's start off just in one , uh , with this feature . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor c: i think that 's probably the most basic thing , before anything very complicated . phd e: yeah . professor c: um and then we w i think we 're agreed that pitch - related things are are are going to be a a really likely candidate to help . phd d: yeah . phd e: yeah . i agree , yeah . uh - huh . professor c: um but since uh your intuition from looking at some of the data , is that when you looked at the regular energy , that it did in fact usually go up , when two people were talking , that 's eh you know , you should be able to come up with a measure which will match your intuition . phd e: ok . yeah . yeah . yeah , yeah , yeah . professor c: and she 's right , that a that having a having { comment } having this table , with a whole bunch of things , with the standard deviation , the variance and so forth , it 's it 's it 's harder to interpret than just looking at the the same kind of picture you have here . phd e: but uh - huh . yeah . but it it 's curious but uh i f i found it in the in the mixed file , in one channel that eh in several oh e eh several times eh you have an speaker talking alone with a high level of energy professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd e: eh in the middle eh a zone of overlapping with mmm less energy professor c: mm - hmm . phd e: and eh come with another speaker with high energy professor c: mm - hmm . phd e: and the overlapping zone has eh less energy . professor c: yeah . so there 'll be some cases for which phd e: because there reach very many professor c: but , the qu so so they 'll be phd d: right . professor c: this is i w want to point to visual things , but i mean they there 'll be time there 'll be overlap between the distributions , but the question is , `` if it 's a reasonable feature at all , there 's some separation . `` phd e: yeah . yeah . phd d: especially locally . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: so . locally . phd e: just locally , yeah . grad a: and i was just going to say that that right now we 're just exploring . phd d: and the other thing is i sorry . i grad a: what you would imagine eventually , is that you 'll feed all of these features into some discriminative system . phd e: yeah . professor c: yeah . grad a: and so even if if one of the features does a good job at one type of overlap , another feature might do a good job at another type of overlap . phd e: yeah . yeah . yeah . professor c: right . i mean the the reason i had suggested the scatter f p features is i used to do this a lot , when we had thirteen or fifteen or twenty features to look at . phd e: yeah , this is the professor c: um because something is a good feature uh by itself , you do n't really know how it 'll behave in combination and so it 's nice to have as many as many together at the same time as possible in uh in some reasonable visual form . there 's cool graphic things people have had sometimes to put together three or four in some funny funny way . but it 's true that you should n't do any of that unless you know that the individual ones , at least , have have some uh some hope phd e: yeah . phd d: well , especially for normalizing . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: i mean , it 's really important to pick a normalization that matches the distribution for that feature . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and it may not be the same for all the types of overlaps or the windows may not be the same . e actually , i was wondering , right now you 're taking a all of the speech , from the whole meeting , and you 're trying to find points of overlap , but we do n't really know which speaker is overlapping with which speaker , professor c: right . phd d: right ? so i mean another way would just be to take the speech from just , say , morgan , and just jane and then just their overlaps , phd e: yeah . phd d: like but by hand , by cheating , and looking at you know , if you can detect something that way , because if we ca n't do it that way , there 's no good way that we 're going to be able to do it . grad a: no prayer . phd d: that you know , there might be something helpful and cleaner about looking at just individuals and then that combination alone . phd e: yeah . phd d: plus , i think it has more elegant e professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: the m the right model will be easier to see that way . so if i do n't know , if you go through and you find adam , cuz he has a lot of overlaps and some other speaker who also has e enough speech phd e: yeah . phd d: and just sort of look at those three cases of adam and the other person and the overlaps , phd e: yeah . phd d: maybe and just look at the distributions , maybe there is a clear pattern phd e: yeah . phd d: but we just ca n't see it because there 's too many combinations of of people that can overlap . phd e: uh - huh . yeah . postdoc b: i had the same intuition last last last week . phd d: so . just seems sort of complex . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: i think it 's to start with it 's s your your idea of simplifying , starting with something that you can see eh you know without the extra layers of phd d: right . cuz if energy does n't matter there , like i do n't think this is true , but what if phd e: to study individual ? postdoc b: sorry , what ? phd d: hmm ? phd e: to study individual ? postdoc b: well , you you you do n't have to study everybody individually phd d: well , to study the simplest case to get rid of extra phd e: the the the but consider postdoc b: but just simple case and the one that has the lot of data associated with it . phd d: right . cuz what if it 's the case and i do n't think this is true grad a: that was a great overlap by the way . phd d: what if it 's the case that when two people overlap they equate their you know , there 's a conservation of energy and everybody both people talk more softly ? i do n't think this happens at all . postdoc b: or or what if what if the equipment what if the equipment adjusts somehow , phd d: or they get louder . postdoc b: there 's some equalizing in there ? phd d: yeah or professor c: uh , no we do n't have that . phd d: i mean . grad a: well , but but i think that 's what i was saying about different types of overlap . postdoc b: ok . professor c: but . postdoc b: saturation . phd d: there are there are different types , and within those types , like as jose was saying , that sounded like a backchannel overlap , meaning the kind that 's a friendly encouragement , like `` mm - hmm . `` , `` great ! `` , `` yeah ! `` phd e: yeah . phd d: and it does n't take you do n't take the floor . um , but , some of those , as you showed , i think can be discriminated by the duration of the overlap . phd e: yeah . phd d: so . it actually the s new student , don , who um adam has met , and he was at one of our meetings he 's getting his feet wet and then he 'll be starting again in mid - january . he 's interested in trying to distinguish the types of overlap . i do n't know if he 's talked with you yet . but in sort of honing in on these different types phd e: yeah . i do n't consi now i do n't consider that possibility . phd d: and so maybe phd e: this is a s a general studio of the overlapping we 're studying the i professor c: yeah . well i i i i would s actually still recommend that he do the overall thing phd d: so it might be something that we can help by categorizing some of them and then , you know , look at that . professor c: because it would be the quickest thing for him to do . he could you see , he already has all his stuff in place , phd d: yeah . professor c: he has the histogram mechanism , he has the stuff that subtracts out and all he has to do is change it uh uh from from log to plain energy and plot the histogram and look at it . and then he should go on and do the other stuff bec but but this will phd d: yeah . yeah , no . i did n't mean that that for you to do that , but i was thinking if if don and i are trying to get categories professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: and we label some data for you , and we say this is what we think is going so you do n't have to worry about it . and here 's the three types of overlaps . phd e: yeah . phd d: and we 'll we 'll do the labelling for you . phd e: yeah . professor c: hm - hmm . phd d: um . phd e: consider different class of overlap ? phd d: yeah , that we would be working on anyway . phd e: if there 's time . phd d: then maybe you can try some different things for those three cases , and see if that helps , or phd e: yeah . yeah . this is the thing i i comment with you before , that uh we have a great variation of th situation of overlapping . professor c: mm - hmm . phd e: and the behavior for energy is , uh log energy , is not uh the same all the time . phd d: mm - hmm . phd e: and professor c: but i guess i was just saying that that right now uh from the means that you gave , i do n't have any sense of whether even , you know , there are any significant number of cases for which there is distinct and i would imagine there should be some you know , there should be the distributions should be somewhat separated . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor c: uh and i i would still guess that if they are not separated at all , that there 's some there 's there 's most likely something wrong in the way that we 're measuring it . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor c: um , but um for instance , i mean i would n't expect that it was very common overall , that when two people were talking at the same time , that it would that it really was lower , phd e: yeah . professor c: although sometimes , as you say , it would . phd e: yeah . professor c: so . so . phd d: yeah , no , that was that was a jok phd e: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd d: or a sort of , a case where where you would never know that unless you actually go and look at two individuals . professor c: i mean . no . it could it probably does happen sometimes . phd e: yeah . grad a: right . professor c: yeah . yeah . grad a: mind if i turned that light off ? phd e: yeah . phd d: so . grad a: the flickering is annoying me . professor c: ok . phd d: it might the case , though , that the significant energy , just as jose was saying , comes in the non - backchannel cases . because in back most people when they 're talking do n't change their own energy when they get a backchannel , cuz they 're not really predicting the backchannel . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and sometimes it 's a nod and sometimes it 's an `` mm - hmm `` . phd e: yeah . phd d: and the `` mm - hmm `` is really usually very low energy . phd e: yeah . phd d: so maybe those do n't actually have much difference in energy . but all the other cases might . professor c: e e and and again what they what difference there was would kind of be lost in taking the log , phd d: and the backchannels are sort of easy to spot s in terms of their words or i mean , just listen to it . phd e: yeah . phd d: so . professor c: so , as well . phd d: well , it would be lost no matter what you do . phd e: but yeah . phd d: it just professor c: mmm , no , if it 's if i if it 's grad a: tone professor c: well , it wo n't be as big . phd d: i mean , even if you take the log , you can your model just has a more sensitive measures . phd e: yeah . grad a: sure , but tone might be very phd d: so . grad a: yeah , you 're `` mm - hmm `` tone is going to be very different . phd d: yeah . right . right . grad a: you could imagine doing specialized ones for different types of backchannels , if you could if you had a good model for it . your `` mm - hmm `` detector . professor c: if if you 're a i guess my point is , if you 're doing essentially a linear separation , taking the log first does in fact make it harder to separate . grad a: right . professor c: so it 's so , uh if you i i so i if there if there close to things it does phd e: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor c: it 's a nonlinear operation that does in fact change the distinction . if you 're doing a non if you 're doing some fancy thing then then yeah . and right now we 're essentially doing this linear thing by looking across here and and saying we 're going to cut it here . um and that that 's the indicator that we 're getting . but anyway , yeah , we 're not disagreeing on any of this , we should look at it more uh more finely , but uh uh i think that this often happens , you do fairly complicated things , and then you stand back from them and you realize that you have n't done something simple . so uh , if you generated something like that just for the energy and see , and then , a a a as as liz says , when they g have uh uh smaller um , more coherent groups to look at , that would be another interesting thing later . phd e: uh - huh . professor c: and then that should give us some indication between those , should give us some indication of whether there 's anything to be achieved f from energy at all . phd e: uh - huh . professor c: and then you can move on to the uh uh more pitch related stuff . phd e: mm - hmm . i i i think this is a good idea . professor c: ok . postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd e: not consider the log energy . professor c: yeah . but then the have you started looking at the pitch related stuff at all , or ? pitch related ? phd e: the ? professor c: harmonicity and so on ? phd e: i i 'm preparing the the program but i do n't i do n't begin because eh i saw your email professor c: preparing to yeah . phd e: and i agree with you it 's better to i suppose it 's better to to consider the the energy this kind of parameter bef professor c: yeah . oh , that 's not what i meant . no , no . i i i i well , we certainly should see this but i i i i think that the harm i certainly was n't saying this was better than the harmonicity and pitch related things i was just saying phd e: i i go on with the with the pitch , professor c: yeah . phd e: aha ! ok . professor c: yeah , i was just saying phd e: i i i i understood uh that eh i i had to finish by the moment with the and and concentrate my my energy in that problem . professor c: ok . ok . ok . but i think , like , all these derivatives and second derivatives and all these other very fancy things , i think i would just sort of look at the energy and then get into the harmonicity as as a suggestion . phd e: ok . i go on with the pitch . professor c: uh ok . so maybe uh since w we 're trying to uh compress the meeting , um , i know adam had some form stuff he wanted to talk about and did you have some ? postdoc b: i wanted to ask just s something on the end of this top topic . so , when i presented my results about the uh distribution of overlaps and the speakers and the profiles of the speakers , at the bottom of that i did have a proposal , phd e: uh - huh . postdoc b: and i had plan to go through with it , of of co coding the types of overlaps that people were involved in s just with reference to speaker style so , you know , with reference phd d: oh . postdoc b: and you know i said that on my in my summary , phd d: that 'd be great . postdoc b: that you know so it 's like people may have different amounts of being overlapped with or overlapping phd d: yeah , i remem right . postdoc b: but that in itself is not informative without knowing what types of overlaps they 're involved in so i was planning to do a taxonomy of types overlaps with reference to that . phd d: that would be great . postdoc b: so , but it you know it 's like it sounds like you also have uh something in that direction . phd d: that would be really great . phd e: yeah . grad a: hmm . postdoc b: is is it phd d: we have nothing you know , basically , we got his environment set up . he 's he 's a double - e { comment } you know . so . it 's mostly that , if we had to label it ourselves , we we would or we 'd have to , to get started , but if it it would be much better if you can do it . you 'd be much better { comment } at doing it also because you know , i i 'm not i do n't have a good feel for how they should be sorted out , postdoc b: interesting . phd d: and i really did n't wan na go into that if i did n't have to . so if if you 're w willing to do that or or grad a: it would be interesting , though , to talk , maybe not at the meeting , but at some other time about what are the classes . postdoc b: well maybe we can ok . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: i think that 's a research effort in and of itself , phd e: yeah . grad a: yeah , it would be interesting . phd d: because you can read the literature , but i do n't know how it 'll turn out phd e: yeah . phd d: and , you know , it 's always an interesting question . postdoc b: it seems like we also s with reference to a purpose , too , that we we 'd want to have them coded . phd e: i would think it 's interesting , yeah . yeah . phd d: that 'd be great . grad a: yep . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: ok . phd d: that 'd be really great . postdoc b: i can do that . phd d: and we 'd still have some funding for this project , phd e: uh uh phd d: like probably , if we had to hire some like an undergrad , because uh don is being covered half time on something else postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: i mean , he we 're not paying him the full ra - ship for all the time . so . um if we got it to where we wanted we needed someone to do that i do n't think there 's really enough data where where postdoc b: mm - hmm . yeah , i see this as a prototype , to use the only the the already transcribed meeting as just a prototype . phd e: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd e: i i think a a another parameter we c we we can consider is eh the duration . phd d: but grad a: mm - hmm . phd e: another e e m besides eh the the class of overlap , the duration . because is possible eh some s s um eh some classes eh has eh a type of a duration , eh , a duration very short uh when we have we have overlapping with speech . postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah , definitely . postdoc b: yeah , maybe it may be correlated . mm - hmm . phd e: is possible to have . and it 's interesting , i think , to consider the the window of normalization , normalization window . eh because eh if we have a type of , a kind of eh overlap , eh backchannel overlap , with a short duration , is possible eh to normali i i that if we normalize eh with eh eh consider only the the eh window eh by the left eh ri eh side on the right side overlapping with a a very eh oh a small window eh the if the fit of normalization is eh mmm bigger eh in that overlapping zone eh very short postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah , that 's true . the window should n't be larger than the backchannel . phd e: i i me i i understand . i mean that you have eh you have a backchannel , eh , eh you have a overlapping zone very short phd d: yeah . phd e: and you consider eh n eh all the channel to normalize this very short eh professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd e: for example `` mmm mm - hmm hmm `` eh and the energy is not eh height eh i think if you consider all the channel to normalize and the channel is mmm bigger eh eh eh compared with the with the overlapping eh duration , professor c: mm - hmm . phd e: eh the effect is mmm stronger eh that i i mean the the e effect of the normalization eh with the mean and the and the variance eh is different that if you consider only a window compared eh with the n the duration of overlapping . professor c: mm - hmm . you you want it around the overlapping part . phd e: not yeah . professor c: you want it to include something that 's not in overlapping phd e: yeah . postdoc b: mm - hmm . professor c: but but uh phd e: yeah . i i do n't know . professor c: yeah . phd e: is s if phd d: well it 's a sliding window , right ? so if you take the the measure in the center of the overlapped piece , you know , there 'd better be some something . professor c: mm - hmm . phd e: yeah . yeah . phd d: but if your window is really huge then yeah you 're right you wo n't even phd e: yeah , this is the this is the the idea , to consider only the the small window near near near the the overlapping zone . phd d: the portion of the { comment } of the backchannel wo n't wo n't effect anything . but you yeah . so . you know , you should n't be more than like you should definitely not be three times as big as your as your backchannel . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: then you 're gon na w have a wash . and hopefully it 's more like on the order of professor c: i 'm not sure that 's necessarily true . phd e: yeah ? postdoc b: it is an empirical question , it seems like . professor c: because because it because um again if you 're just compensating for the gain , phd d: yea phd e: yeah . postdoc b: yeah . professor c: you know , the fact that this this gain thing was crude , and the gain wh if someone is speaking relatively at consistent level , just to to give a an extreme example , all you 're doing is compensating for that . and then you still s and then if you look at the frame with respect to that , it still should should uh change phd d: yeah , it depends how different your normalization is , as you slide your window across . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: i mean . that 's something we do n't know . postdoc b: it 's possible to try it both ways , grad a: well , i mean we 're also talking about a couple of different things . postdoc b: is n't it ? in this small grad a: i mean , one is your analysis window and then the other is any sort of normalization that you 're doing . phd d: yeah i was talking about the n normalization window . grad a: and the and they could be quite different . professor c: right . phd d: yeah . phd e: yeah . professor c: this was sort of where where we were last week . grad a: yep . phd d: yeah . that 's true . yeah . professor c: but , anyway we we 'll have to look at some core things . postdoc b: ok . phd d: um . but that 'd be great if if you 're marking those phd e: ok . postdoc b: great . phd d: and um . postdoc b: ok . phd d: but it is definitely true that we need to have the time marks , phd e: yeah . postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: and i was assuming that will be inherited because , if you have the words and they 're roughly aligned in time via forced alignment or whatever we end up using , then you know , this student and i would be looking at the time marks postdoc b: yep , i agree . mm - hmm . coming off of the other phd d: and classifying all the frames inside those as whatever labels jane gave phd e: yeah . postdoc b: good . so , it would n't be i was n't planning to label the time marks . phd d: phd e: i can give you my transcription file , postdoc b: i was thinking that that would come from the engineering side , phd d: i do n't think you need to . phd e: no ? postdoc b: yeah . phd d: yeah . that should be linked to the words which are linked to time somehow , postdoc b: there you go . grad a: well we 're not any time soon going to get a forced alignment . phd d: right ? not now . grad a: so . phd e: yeah . grad a: um if it 's not hand - marked then we 're not going to get the times . phd d: well , it 's something that w well , we we would n't be able to do any work without a forced alignment anyway , phd e: yes phd d: so somehow if once he gets going we 're gon na hafta come up with one professor c: yes . phd d: and yeah . grad a: i mean w i guess we could do a very bad one with broadcast news . postdoc b: good . good . phd d: so whatever you would label would be attached to the words , i think . postdoc b: great ! good , good . mm - hmm . phd e: yeah . professor c: well again for the close mike stuff , we could come up take a s take the switchboard system or something , grad a: that might be good enough . yeah . professor c: and um grad a: it 'd be worth a try . it would be interesting to see what we get . professor c: just , you know , low - pass filter the speech and phd d: cuz there 's there 's a lot of work you ca n't do without that , i mean , how how would you professor c: yeah . phd d: you 'd have to go in and measure every start and stop point next to a word grad a: yep . postdoc b: it would be very inefficient . phd d: is y if you 're interested in anything to do with words . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: so . anyway so that 'd be great . postdoc b: good . ok . phd e: yeah . professor c: there 's something we should talk about later but maybe not just now . but , uh , should talk about our options as far as the uh uh transcription grad a: yep , if ibm does n't professor c: but . well , w but we 'll do that later . postdoc b: ok . good . phd d: do we hafta turn postdoc b: yeah . let 's do that later . phd d: are we supposed to keep recording here ? grad a: yeah right . postdoc b: yeah . professor c: we 'll talk about it later . postdoc b: yeah . professor c: so uh uh `` forms `` . grad a: forms next iteration of forms . professor c: you had something on forms . grad a: oops . postdoc b: oh ! oh good , ok . professor c: um . oh . postdoc b: how so it 's two pages per person ? grad a: nope . one 's a digit form , one 's a speaker form . postdoc b: oh ! grad a: so one is a one time only speaker form and the other is the digits . postdoc b: oh , i see . phd e: oh it 's the same . oh no no . is is new is ok . grad a: so do n't fill these out . postdoc b: alright . grad a: this is just the suggestion for uh what the new forms would look like . so , they incorporate the changes that we talked about . postdoc b: date and time . uh why did you switch the order of the date and time fields ? this is rather a low - level , but grad a: on which one ? postdoc b: on on the new one , time comes first and then date , but i thought grad a: oh you mean on the digit form ? postdoc b: this is this is rather a low level question , but but it used used to be date came first . grad a: uh , because the user fills out the first three fields and i fill out the rest . postdoc b: oh i see . grad a: so it was intentional . postdoc b: well , how would the how would the user know the time if they did n't know the date ? grad a: it 's an interesting observation , but it was intentional . because the date is when you actually read the digits and the time and , excuse me , the time is when you actually read the digits , but i 'm filling out the date beforehand . if you look at the form in front of you ? that you 're going to fill out when you read the digits ? you 'll see i 've already filled in the date but not the time . postdoc b: yeah . i always assumed so the time is supposed to be pretty exact , because i 've just been taking beginning time time of the meeting . phd d: yeah , me too . grad a: yeah , i 've noticed that in the forms . phd e: yeah , i yeah . grad a: the the reason i put the time in , is so that the person who 's extracting the digits , meaning me , will know where to look in the meeting , to try to find the digits . phd d: phd e: me too . oh ! postdoc b: oh dear . we 've been we 've been messing up your forms . phd e: but i am put i am putting the beginning of the meeting . grad a: i know . phd d: so you should call it , like , `` digits start time `` . or . grad a: and i have n't said anything . yep . phd e: in on there . professor c: why what what were you putting in ? postdoc b: oh , well , i was saying if we started the meeting at two thirty , phd e: yeah . postdoc b: i 'd put two thirty , and i guess d e everyone was putting two thirty , professor c: oh . phd e: yeah . grad a: no , it 's about fifty fifty . postdoc b: and i did n't realize there was `` uh oh i 'm about to read this and i should `` grad a: actually it 's about one third each . about one third of them are blank , about one third of them are when the digits are read , and about one third of them are when the meeting starts . so . phd e: oh . postdoc b: this would be a radical suggestion but grad a: i could put instructions ? nah . postdoc b: ei - either that or maybe you could maybe write down when people start reading digits on that particular session . phd e: yeah . grad a: but if i 'm not at the meeting , i ca n't do that . postdoc b: i know , ok . that 's a good point . professor c: yeah , he 's been setting stuff up and going away . so . postdoc b: i see . good point good point . professor c: for some reason he does n't want to sit through every meeting that 's grad a: yep , but that is the reason name , email and time are where they are . postdoc b: oh , ok . alright . professor c: yeah . postdoc b: i rest my grad a: and then the others are later on . professor c: uh - huh . postdoc b: ok . w phd e: and the seat is this number ? grad a: mm - hmm . postdoc b: seat and session . phd d: `` for official use only `` that 's well , he 's very professional . phd e: `` use only `` postdoc b: actually you could well that does raise another question , which is why is the `` professional use only `` line not higher ? why does n't it come in at the point of date and seat ? oh . because we 're filling in other things . grad a: what ? professor c: what ? postdoc b: well , because if y your your professional use , you 're gon na already have the date , and the s grad a: what which form are you talking about ? postdoc b: well i 'm comparing the new one with the old one . this is the digit form . phd e: oh . grad a: oh you 're talking about the digit form . professor c: digit . digit form . phd e: yeah . grad a: the digit form does n't the digit postdoc b: oh ! i was n't supposed to phd e: yeah . grad a: no , that 's alright . postdoc b: sorry . sorry . grad a: the digit form does n't have a `` for official use only `` line . it just has a line , which is what you 're supposed to read . postdoc b: that uh ok . grad a: so on the digits form , everything above the line is a fill - in form postdoc b: sorry about that . yeah . grad a: and everything below the line is digits that the user reads . postdoc b: yeah . ok . alright s but i did n't mean to derail our discussion here , so you really wanted to start with this other form . grad a: no , either way is fine i just you just started talking about something , and i did n't know which form you were referring to . postdoc b: alright yeah , i was comparing so th this is so i was looking at the change first . so it 's like we started with this and now we 've got a new version of it wi with reference to this . so the digit form , we had one already . now the f the fields are slightly different . professor c: so the main thing that the person fills out um is the name and email and time ? phd e: yeah . grad a: right . professor c: you do the rest ? phd e: ah ! grad a: yep . just as uh as i have for all the others . postdoc b: what and there 's an addition of the native language , which is a bit redundant . professor c: right . postdoc b: this one has native language and this one does too . grad a: that 's because the one , the digit form that has native language is the old form not the new form . postdoc b: oh ! thank you . thank you , thank you . there we go . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: oh , yeah . i 'll catch up here . ok , i see . professor c: `` south midland , north midland `` postdoc b: that 's the old and that 's the new . grad a: yeah this was the problem with these categories , i i picked those categories from timit . i do n't know what those are . phd d: actually , the only way i know is from working with the database and having to figure it out . phd e: what grad a: with timit , yeah ? phd e: uh - huh . grad a: so , i was gon na ask phd e: what i professor c: so is south midland like kansas ? grad a: wh w i mean . professor c: and north midland like like uh illinois , or ? phd d: well yeah . nor - um phd e: yeah . grad a: so so what accent are we speaking ? western ? professor c: by definition ? phd e: and for simple for for me ? professor c: well , phd d: probably western , yeah . phd e: is mean my native language spanish spanish ? eh the original is the center of spain and the beca grad a: yeah , i mean you could call it whatever you want . for the foreign language we could n't classify every single one . so i just left it blank and you can put whatever you want . phd e: because is different , the span - uh the spanish language from the the north of spain , of the south , of the west and the grad a: sure . phd e: but . grad a: so i 'm not sure what to do about the region field for english variety . you know , when i wrote i was writing those down , i was thinking , `` you know , these are great if you 're a linguist `` . phd e: yeah . grad a: but i do n't know how to i do n't know how to i do n't know how to categorize them . postdoc b: yeah . phd d: actually even if you t postdoc b: yeah . professor c: if you 're if e if y phd d: this was n't developed by th these regions were n't professor c: if you 're a ti or mit from nineteen eighty - five . grad a: yeah so i guess my only question was if if you were a south midland speaking region , person ? would you know it ? professor c: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . grad a: is that what you would call yourself ? phd d: i do n't know . grad a: yeah . professor c: you know , i think if you 're talking if you 're thinking in terms of places , as opposed to names different peop names people have given to different ways of talking , i would think north midwest , and south midwest would be more common than saying midland , right , i mean , i i went to s phd d: yeah . now the usage maybe we can give them a li like a little map ? with the regions and they just no , i 'm serious . postdoc b: no , that 's not bad . yeah . phd d: because it takes less time , and it 's sort of cute phd e: i at this in that side in that side of the the paper . phd d: there 's no figure . professor c: well . phd d: well just a little you know , it does n't have all the detail , but you sort of professor c: but what if you moved five times and and uh postdoc b: well , i was thinking you could have ma multiple ones and then the amount of time phd d: no , but you 're categorized . that 's the same postdoc b: so , roughly . so . you could say , you know `` ten years on the east coast , five years on the west coast `` or something or other . grad a: well , we i think we do n't want to get that level of detail at this form . i think that 's alright if we want to follow up . but . professor c: i guess we do n't really know . phd d: i mean i as i said , i do n't think there 's a huge benefit to this region thing . it it gets the problem is that for some things it 's really clear and usually listening to { comment } it you can tell right away if it 's a new york or boston accent , but new york and boston are two well , i guess they have the nyc , but new england has a bunch of very different dialects and postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: and so does um s so do other places . grad a: yeah , so i picked these regions cuz we had talked about timit , and those are right from timit . phd d: right . and so these would be satisfying like a speech research community if we released the database , grad a: so . phd d: but as to whether subjects know where they 're from , i 'm not sure because um i know that they had to fill this out for switchboard . this is i almost exactly the same as switchboard regions postdoc b: oh . ok . phd d: or very close . yeah . um and i do n't know how they filled that out . but th if midland yeah , midland is the one that 's difficult i guess . postdoc b: i think a lot of people yeah . phd d: also northwest you 've got oreg - washington and oregon now which uh y people do n't know if it 's western or northern . grad a: yeah , i certainly do n't . i mean , i was saying i do n't even know what i speak . phd d: it 's like northwest grad a: am i speaking am i speaking western ? professor c: oh , what is northern ? well and what and what 's northern ? phd d: i think originally it was north northwest grad a: northwest ? phd d: but phd e: yeah . grad a: yeah , so this is a real problem . i do n't know what to do about it . phd d: yeah . postdoc b: i would n't know how to characterize mine either . and and so i would think i would say , i 've i 've got a mix of california and ohio . grad a: i c i think at the first level , for example , we speak the same . phd d: i do n't know . grad a: our our dialects or whatever you region are the same . postdoc b: uh - huh . grad a: but i do n't know what it is . so . phd d: well , you have a like techno - speak accent i think . grad a: a techno - speak accent ? phd d: yeah , you know ? phd e: a techno grad a: a a geek region ? phd d: well it 's i mean i you can sort of identify postdoc b: geek region . phd d: it f it 's it 's not not that that 's phd e: is different . is different . phd d: but but maybe that maybe we could leave this and see what people see what people choose and then um let them just fill in if they do n't i mean i do n't know what else we can do , cuz that 's north midland . postdoc b: i 'm wondering about a question like , `` where are you from mostly ? `` phd e: yeah . professor c: but i i 'm s i 'm now that you mentioned it though , i am really am confused by `` northern `` . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: i agree . i agree . professor c: i really am . postdoc b: i agree . professor c: i mean , if if you 're in new england , that 's north . phd e: yeah . professor c: if you 're i if you 're postdoc b: scandinavian , the minnesota area 's north . professor c: uh yeah . that 's but that 's also north midland , phd e: yeah . postdoc b: oh , @ @ . ok . professor c: right ? postdoc b: professor c: and and and oregon and and oregon and washington are are western , but they 're also northern . phd d: yeah . of course , that 's very different from , like , michigan , or phd e: mmm . postdoc b: mm - hmm . professor c: uh , idaho ? phd d: well there are hardly any subjects from idaho . professor c: montana ? grad a: no problem . postdoc b: just rule them out . phd d: there 's only a few people in idaho . grad a: there are hardly any subjects from `` beep `` phd e: yeah . phd d: sorry . professor c: maybe maybe we maybe we should put a little map and say `` put an x on where you 're from `` , phd d: no , that 's phd e: and is in those grad a: yeah really . phd d: we could ask where they 're from . phd e: and if you put postdoc b: it 'd be pretty simple , yeah . phd d: yeah . but - we went back to that . phd e: yeah . if you put eh the state ? grad a: well well we sort of postdoc b: where are you from mostly ? phd d: we we went we went around this and then a lot of people ended up saying that it phd e: uh - huh . mm - hmm . phd d: you know . grad a: well , i like the idea of asking `` what variety of english do you speak `` as opposed to where you 're from because th if we start asking where we 're from , again you have to start saying , `` well , is that the language you speak or is that just where you 're from ? `` phd e: yeah . postdoc b: hmm ? phd d: right . right . phd e: yeah . professor c: let 's mm - hmm . phd d: i mean it gives us good information on where they 're from , but that does n't { comment } tell us anything grad a: and professor c: we could always ask them if they 're from phd d: well , enough about their grad a: i mean . so so i would say germany phd d: like grad a: you know am i speaking with german accent postdoc b: oh . grad a: i do n't think so . postdoc b: well , see , i 'm thinking `` where are you from mostly `` phd d: right . grad a: oh , ok yeah . postdoc b: because , you know , then you have some some kind of subjective amount of time factored into it . phd e: yeah . yeah . grad a: yep . yeah , i guess i could try to put squeeze in a little map . phd e: yeah . grad a: i mean there 's not a lot of r of room professor c: i 'd say , uh , `` boston , new york city , the south and regular `` . postdoc b: well phd d: oh , i do n't know . grad a: i think of those , northern is the only one that i do n't even know what they 're meaning . postdoc b: yeah . yeah . phd e: and and um and usually here people here know what is their kind of mmm lang english language ? professor c: that 's a joke . that 's phd d: so let 's make it up . s i mean , who cares . right ? we can make up our own so we can say `` northwest `` , `` rest of west `` or something . you know . `` west `` and i mean . grad a: ye i do n't think the northwest people speak any differently than i do . phd d: it does n't even yeah , exactly . that 's not really a region . postdoc b: i professor c: `` do you come from the louisiana purchase ? `` phd d: so we could take out `` north `` `` northern `` . grad a: that that 's exactly what we 're arguing about . phd e: eh here is easy for people to know ? phd d: that 's yeah , w it 's in it 's it 's harder in america anywhere else , basically . grad a: we do n't know . phd e: because you have grad a: i mean some of them are very obvious . if you if you talk to someone speaking with southern drawl , you know . phd e: n m yeah . postdoc b: yeah , or boston . grad a: or boston , yeah . postdoc b: i ca n't do it , but phd e: or boston ? professor c: yeah . phd d: and those people , if you ask them to self - identify their accent they know . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: yeah , they do . phd d: they know very well . postdoc b: yeah i agree i agree . i agree . phd d: they know they do n't speak the same as the grad a: but is boston new england ? postdoc b: and they 're proud of it . phd d: day o postdoc b: yeah . phd d: yeah , exactly . postdoc b: it 's identity thing . phd d: and they 're glad to tell you . phd e: style . phd d: well . depends who you ask , i suppose . grad a: w i guess that 's the problem with these categories . phd e: phd d: but that 's why they have new york city but postdoc b: well , we ca well , why ca n't we just say characterize something like char characterize your accent professor c: well , boston 's @ @ , too . phd d: or `` characterize your accent if you can . `` postdoc b: and and so i would say , `` i do n't know `` . phd d: yeah . right , which probably means you have a very postdoc b: but someone from boston with a really strong coloration would know . and so would an r - less maine or something , phd d: and that 's actually good . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: yeah . phd d: i was i was thinking of something along that line professor c: how postdoc b: good . phd d: because if you do n't know , then , you know , ruling out the fact that you 're totally inept or something , postdoc b: hmm . phd d: if somebody does n't know , it probably means their accent is n't very strong compared to the sort of midwest standard . professor c: well , i mean , it was n't that long ago that we had somebody here who was from texas who was absolutely sure that he did n't have any accent left . postdoc b: hmm ? professor c: and and had he had a pretty noticeable drawl . grad a: ok , so . i propose , take out northern add , do n't know . postdoc b: oh . yeah . i i would say more more sweepingly , `` how would you characterize your accent ? `` phd e: yeah . grad a: so you want to change the instructions also not just say region ? phd d: w postdoc b: well , i think this discussion has made me think that 's s something to consider . grad a: i do n't know if i if i read this form , i think they 're going to ask { comment } it they 're going to answer the same way if you say , `` what 's variety of english do you speak ? region . `` as if you say `` what variety of region region { comment } do you speak ? please characterize your accent ? `` they 're going to answer the same way . postdoc b: i guess well , i was not sure that i phd e: mmm . postdoc b: so . i was suggesting not having the options , just having them grad a: oh , i see . phd e: huh . grad a: well what we talked about with that is is so that they would understand the granularity . postdoc b: yes , but if , as liz is suggesting , people who have strong accents know that they do grad a: i mean that 's what i had before , and you told me to list the regions to list them . postdoc b: and are well , i know . professor c: right . phd d: each each one has pros and cons grad a: so . professor c: right . postdoc b: that 's true . professor c: right . phd d: i mean we we professor c: yeah last week last week i was sort of r arguing for having it wide open , but then everybody said `` oh , no , but then it will be hard to interpret because some people will say cincinnati and some will say ohio `` . grad a: i mean i had it wide open last week and and you said timit . professor c: and . postdoc b: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd d: what if we put in both ? grad a: that 's what the `` other `` is for . phd d: and would people no , i mean what if we put in both ways of asking them ? so . one is region and the another one is `` if you had to characterize yourself your accent , what would you say ? `` grad a: wo n't they answer the same thing ? phd d: well they might only answer only one of the questions but if postdoc b: yeah that 's fine . phd d: you know . postdoc b: they might say `` other `` for region because they do n't know what category to use phd d: actually postdoc b: but they might have something phd d: right . postdoc b: because it is easier to have it open ended . phd d: it just and we we might learn from what they say , as to which one 's a better { comment } way to ask it . professor c: w this is just a small thing phd d: but i cuz i really do n't know . professor c: but um it says `` variety `` and then it gives things that e have american as one of the choices . but then it says `` region `` , but region actually just applies to uh , us , grad a: right . professor c: right ? grad a: i mean that 's why i put the `` other `` in . postdoc b: well , we thought about it . professor c: ah , ok . postdoc b: yeah , ok . we just we sort of thought , `` yes , `` y y i mean professor c: s postdoc b: at the last meeting , my recollection was that we felt people would have uh less that that there are so many types and varieties of these other languages and we are not going to have that many subjects from these different language groups grad a: yep . postdoc b: and that it 's a huge waste of of space . professor c: ok . grad a: so i mean , i i mean the way i had it last time was region was blank , postdoc b: that 's what i thought . grad a: it just said region colon . postdoc b: yeah . grad a: and and i think that that 's the best way to do it , postdoc b: yeah . grad a: because because of the problems we 're talking about but what we said last week , was no , put in a list , so i put in a list . so should we go back to phd d: maybe we can make the list a little smaller . grad a: well , certainly dropping `` northern `` i think is right , because none of us know what that is . phd d: cuz , i mean and keeping `` other `` , and then maybe this north midland , we call it `` north midwest `` . south midwest , or just professor c: yes i i i think so . yeah . phd d: south midwest . does that make sense ? phd e: south midwest ? phd d: that would help me professor c: u unless you 're from midland , kansas . phd d: yeah . cuz midland professor c: but . yeah . phd d: i do n't know where midland is professor c: there 's a or midland midland grad a: is `` midwest `` one word ? professor c: is it midland midland midland , texas or midland , kansas ? i forget . phd d: y yeah , one w professor c: but there 's a town . in in there . phd d: oh . professor c: i forget what it is @ @ . postdoc b: i do n't think that 's what they mean . phd d: but , professor c: yeah . phd d: yeah . so . kansas would be south midland . right ? professor c: y yeah . phd d: and and would n't yeah . professor c: and colorado , right across the border , would be north midland . phd d: so , th i 'm from kansas , actually . phd e: southern midland . phd d: yeah . grad a: and uh phd d: colora oh , right . and then , the the dropping north , so it would be western . it 's just one big shebang , where , of course , you have huge variation in dialects , grad a: but that 's true of new england too . professor c: but you do in the others , too . so . phd d: but { comment } but so do you grad a: so . i mean only one phd d: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd d: yeah . yeah . grad a: well , i should n't say that . i have no clue . i was going to say the only one that does n't have a huge variety is new york city . but i have no idea whether it does or not . postdoc b: it does seem i mean . i i would think that these categories would be more w would be easier for an an analyst to put in rather than the subject himself . professor c: u grad a: i think that that was what happened with timit , was that it was an analyst . postdoc b: ok . professor c: wait a minute . where does where does d w where where 's where does uh new new york west of west of uh new york city and pennsylvania uh and uh phd d: yeah , i do n't know how it came from . postdoc b: ok . grad a: new england phd d: so . that 's new england i think . professor c: n no , it 's not . phd d: yeah . grad a: oh , no . postdoc b: i sort of thought they were part of the one of the midlands . professor c: oh no . no , no . no . pennsylvania is not grad a: `` other `` , it goes under `` other `` , definitely under `` other `` . phd d: well , you know , pennsylvania has a pretty strong dialect and it 's totally different than professor c: pennsylvania yeah . pennsylvania is not new england . and uh new jersey is not new england and maryland is not new england and none of those are the south . grad a: ok . so . another suggestion . rather than have circle fill in forms , say `` region , open paren , e g southern comma western comma close paren colon . `` postdoc b: yeah . ok . phd d: ok ! postdoc b: fine by me , fine by me . professor c: that 's good . i like that . phd d: sure ! phd e: yeah . postdoc b: yeah . professor c: we 're all sufficiently tired of this that we 're agreeing with you . phd d: let 's just and we 'll see what we get . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: be easier on the subjects . i think that 's fine . no . i think professor c: so . postdoc b: i like that . i like that . professor c: you like it ? postdoc b: yeah , i do . professor c: ok . grad a: actually , maybe we do one non - english one as well . professor c: good . grad a: southern , cockney ? phd d: yeah , and phd e: yeah . grad a: is that a real accent ? postdoc b: sure , yeah ! grad a: how do you spell it ? phd e: yeah . postdoc b: i think that 's fine . professor c: cockney ? grad a: n e professor c: co yeah . phd d: you could say liverpool . professor c: liverpuddlian . postdoc b: yeah . alright . phd d: actually , liverpool does n't l yeah . it 's i 'm s i ha postdoc b: well . well . i mean , pure grad a: ok , we 'll do it that way . actually , i like that a lot . because that get 's at both of the things we were trying to do , professor c: ok . grad a: the granularity , and the person can just self - assess and we do n't have to argue about what these regions are . postdoc b: that 's right . and it 's easy on the subjects . professor c: ok . phd e: yeah . grad a: yep . postdoc b: now i have one suggestion on the next section . phd e: mm - hmm . grad a: mm - hmm . postdoc b: so you have native language , you have region , and then you have time spent in english speaking country . now , i wonder if it might be useful to have another open field saying `` which one parenthesis s { comment } paren closed parenthesis `` . cuz if they spent time in in britain and america professor c: yes . postdoc b: it does n't have to be ex all at all exact , just in the same open field format that you have . grad a: yep , just which one . i think that 's fine . postdoc b: mm - hmm . with a with an s phd e: mm - hmm . postdoc b: `` which one sss , { comment } optional s . professor c: ok . phd e: postdoc b: yeah . professor c: we uh we done ? grad a: yep . postdoc b: yeah , that 's good . professor c: ok . um s e any any other uh open mike topics or should we go right to the digits ? grad a: um , did you guys get my email on the multitrans ? that ok . postdoc b: is n't that wonderful ! yeah . grad a: yeah . so . so . i i have a version also which actually displays all the channels . postdoc b: excellent ! thank you ! phd d: it 's really great . grad a: but it 's hideously slow . postdoc b: so you this is n dan 's patches , dan ellis 's patches . grad a: the what the ones i applied , that you can actually do are dan 's , because it does n't slow it down . phd d: m postdoc b: fantastic ! grad a: just uses a lot of memory . phd d: so when you say `` slow `` , does that mean to grad a: no , the the one that 's installed is fine . it 's not slow at all . i wrote another version . which , instead of having the one pane with the one view , it has multiple panes with the views . phd e: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . grad a: but the problem with it is the drawing of those waveforms is so slow that every time you do anything it just crawls . postdoc b: mm - hmm . grad a: it 's really bad . phd d: it 's so , it it 's the redrawing of the w postdoc b: that 's a consideration . grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: oh uh - huh , w as you move . grad a: as you play , as you move , as you scroll . just about anything , and it it was so slow it was not usable . so that 's why i did n't install it and did n't pursue it . postdoc b: and this 'll be a hav having the multiwave will be a big help cuz in terms of like disentangling overlaps and things , that 'll be a big help . phd d: oh yeah . grad a: so . i think that the one dan has is usable enough . phd d: yeah . grad a: it does n't display the others . it displays just the mixed signal . postdoc b: mm - hmm . grad a: but you can listen to any of them . postdoc b: that 's excellent . he also has version control which is another nice phd e: yeah . postdoc b: e so you e the patches that you grad a: no , he suggested that , but he did n't it 's not installed . postdoc b: oh , i thought it was in one of those patches . grad a: no . no . postdoc b: oh ok . well . alright . phd d: so is there any hope for actually displaying the wave form ? grad a: um , not if we 're going to use tcl - tk at least not if we 're going to use snack . phd d: ok . grad a: i mean you would have to do something ourselves . postdoc b: well , or use the one that crawls . phd d: ok . well , i 'm i probably would be trying to use the { comment } whatever 's there . and it 's useful to have the grad a: why do n't we we see how dan 's works and if it if we really need the display phd d: yeah . i mean . i wonder i 'm just wondering if we can display things other than the wave form . so . suppose we have a feature a feature stream . and it 's just , you know , a a uni - dimensional feature , varying in time . phd e: yeah . phd d: and we want to plot that , instead of the whole wave form . grad a: i mean . phd d: that might be faster . phd e: yeah . phd d: right ? grad a: we we could do that but that would mean changing the code . phd d: so . phd e: yeah . grad a: i mean this is n't a program we wrote . professor c: yeah . grad a: this is a program that we got from someone else , and we 've done patches on . phd d: ok . postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: ok . well , i 'll talk to you about it and we can see grad a: so . professor c: cou - i e i mean , y phd e: yeah . grad a: yeah . phd d: but it 's definitely great to have the other one . professor c: if there was some is there some way to have someone write patches in something faster and and link it in , or something ? phd d: that 's grad a: not easily . professor c: or is that grad a: i mean y yes we could do that . you could you can write widgets in c . and try to do it that way but i just do n't think it professor c: yeah . grad a: let 's try it with dan 's and if that is n't enough , we can do it otherwise . phd d: right . grad a: i think it is , cuz when i was playing with it , the mixed signal has it all in there . and so it 's really it 's not too bad to find places in the in the stream where things are happening . phd d: ok . grad a: so i i do n't think it 'll be bad . postdoc b: and it 's also also the case that that uh this multi - wave thing is proposed to the phd e: hmm ? postdoc b: so . dan proposed it to the transcriber central people , and it 's likely that uh so . and and they responded favorably looks as though it will be incorporated in the future version . phd d: oh . postdoc b: they said that the only reason they had n't had the multi the parallel uh stream one before was simply that they had n't had time to do it . and uh so it 's likely that this this may be entered into the ch this central @ @ . phd e: yeah . grad a: and if if professor c: they may well have not had much demand for it . postdoc b: well that 's that 's that 's true , too . professor c: yeah . postdoc b: this is a a useful thing for us . phd d: so . you mean they could they could do it and it would be fast enough if they do it ? phd e: yeah . grad a: depends on how much work they did . postdoc b: oh . no . i just mean i just mean that it 's that that his phd d: or ? phd e: oh . postdoc b: so . this one that we now have does have the status of potentially being incorporated l likely being incorporated into the central code . phd d: mm - hmm . ok . postdoc b: now , tha now , if we develop further then , y uh , i do n't grad a: i think if if if one of us sat down and coded it , so that it could be displayed fast enough i 'm sure they would be quite willing to incorporate it . postdoc b: i mean it 's i think it 's a nice feature to have it set that way . mm - hmm . grad a: but it 's not a trivial task . postdoc b: mm - hmm . yeah . phd d: ok . postdoc b: i just like the idea of it being something that 's , you know , tied back into the original , so that other people can benefit from it . grad a: yeah . postdoc b: yeah . however . i also understand that you can have widgets that are very useful for their purpose and that you do n't need to always go that w route . yeah . phd e: ok . grad a: anyway , shall we do digits ? postdoc b: yeah . professor c: yeah . let 's do digits , uh , and then we 'll turn off the mikes , and then i have one other thing to discuss . postdoc b: ok . grad a: ok . phd d: i actually have to leave . so . um . i mean i had to leave at three thirty , postdoc b: uh - oh . grad a: ok . professor c: oh . phd d: so i can well , i can wait for the digits but i ca n't stay for the discussion grad a: well , you want to go first ? or . phd d: i c i have to make a call . professor c: ok . phd d: so . postdoc b: well , should we e should we switch off the g professor c: well , we 'll talk to you about it uh grad a: do you wan na go do digits or do you wan na just skip digits ? phd d: um . no , i can do digits if if but i do n't wan na butt in , or something . grad a: then alright . you go ahead . phd d: but if there 's something on the rest of the i 'm i 'll be around just have to make call before quarter of . so . phd e: mm - hmm . phd d: so i or we can talk about it . postdoc b: ke grad a: why do n't you read the digits ? professor c: yeah , why do n't you read the digits and then you can go . phd d: ok . alright . oh , this is the new one . grad a: yeah , do n't do n't read the old one . professor c: yeah . phd d: alright . the and the time is . ok . grad a: ok postdoc b: turn it off . professor c: ok . postdoc b: but wait till he ok . grad a: and

postdoc c suggested a possible hypothesis that energy is increased as more people are speaking . new forms were discussed , as these will include more details that may have to be completed by analysts through interviews with participants . the multitrans update by the graduate student seems promising , and has been sent for review .

what was the discussion with jose ? </s> professor c: starts no . no . phd d: no . that 's a different thing . professor c: there 's another i do n't know . it starts with a p or something . i forget the word for it , but it 's it 's um phd d: oh . professor c: typically when you you 're ab r starting around forty for most people , it starts to harden and then it 's just harder for the lens to shift things phd d: oh . professor c: and th the the symptom is typically that you you have to hold stuff uh uh further away to to see it . phd e: uh - huh . yeah . professor c: in fact , uh m my brother 's a gerontological psychologist and he he uh came up with an an uh a uh body age test which uh gets down to sort of only three measurements that are good enough st statistical predictors of all the rest of it . and one of them is is the distance that you have to hold it at . phd d: give someone a piece of paper and then they oh . phd e: yeah . professor c: yeah . grad a: we 're we 're live by the way , so we 've got a good intro here professor c: oh . yeah . about how old i am . grad a: yep . professor c: ok . grad a: we can edit that out if you want . phd d: oh , that 's optional . professor c: no , that 's ok . grad a: ok . so . this time the form discussion should be very short , phd d: you know . phd e: mm - hmm . grad a: right ? professor c: it also should be later . grad a: ok . professor c: because jane uh is not here yet . grad a: good point . professor c: and uh she 'll be most interested in that . uh , she 's probably least involved in the signal - processing stuff so maybe we can just just uh , i do n't think we should go though an elaborate thing , but um uh jose and i were just talking about the uh uh , speech e energy thing , phd e: the @ @ professor c: and i uh phd e: yeah . professor c: we did n't talk about the derivatives . but i think , you know , the the i if i can if you do n't mind my my speaking for you for a bit , um uh . right now , that he 's not really showing any kind of uh distinction , but uh but we discussed a couple of the possible things that uh he can look at . um . and uh one is that uh this is all in log energy and log energy is basically compressing the distances uh between things . um another is that he needs to play with the the different uh uh temporal sizes . he was he he was taking everything over two hundred milliseconds uh , and uh he 's going to vary that number and also look at moving windows , as we discussed before . um and uh and the other thing is that the yeah doing the subtracting off the mean and the variance in the uh and dividing it by the standard deviation in the log domain , may not be the right thing to do . grad a: hi jane ! phd e: hi . grad a: we just started . phd e: yeah . grad a: could you take that mike there ? phd d: are these the long term means ? like , over the whole i mean , the means of what ? grad a: thanks . professor c: uh b between between phd d: all the frames in the conversation ? professor c: no . phd d: or of things that professor c: between neither . it 's uh between the pauses uh for some segment . phd e: no . phd d: oh . professor c: and so i i his his he 's making the constraint it has to be at least two hundred milliseconds . phd d: oh . professor c: and so you take that . and then he 's he 's uh measuring at the frame level still at the frame level , of what phd d: right . professor c: and then and then just uh normalizing with that larger amount . um and but one thing he was pointing out is when he he looked at a bunch of examples in log domain , it is actually pretty hard to see the change . and you can sort of see that , because of j of just putting it on the board that if you sort of have log - x plus log - x , that 's the log of x plus the log of two phd e: yep . phd d: yeah , maybe it 's not log distributed . phd e: mmm . yeah . professor c: and it 's just , you know , it it diminishes the effect of having two of them . phd e: professor c: um . phd d: but you could do like a c d f there instead ? i mean , we do n't know that the distribution here is normally . professor c: yes , right . so so what i was suggesting to him is that phd d: so just some kind of a simple professor c: actually , a pdf . but , you know , uh but , either way . phd d: pdf professor c: yeah . yeah , eith eith uh b phd d: yeah . phd e: yeah . phd d: something like that where it 's sort of data driven . professor c: yeah , but i think also u i think a good first indicator is when the the the researcher looks at examples of the data and can not see a change in how big the the signal is , when the two speaker phd e: yeah . yeah . professor c: then , that 's a problem right there . so . i think you should at least be able , phd d: oh yeah . professor c: doing casual looking and can get the sense , `` hey , there 's something there . `` and then you can play around with the measures . and when he 's looking in the log domain he 's not really seeing it . phd d: oh yeah . phd e: yeah . professor c: so . and when he 's looking in straight energy he is , so that 's a good place to start . phd e: yeah . professor c: um . so that was that was the discussion we just had . um . the other thing actually we ca had a question for adam in this . uh , when you did the sampling ? uh over the speech segments or s or sampling over the the individual channels in order to do the e uh the amplitude equalization , did you do it over just the entire everything in the mike channels ? phd e: how professor c: you did n't try to find speech ? grad a: no , i just took over the entire s uh entire channel um sampled ten minutes randomly . professor c: right , ok . so then that means that someone who did n't speak very much would be largely represented by silence . grad a: yep . professor c: and someone who would who would be so the normalization factor probably is i i i is is grad a: yeah , this was quite quick and dirty , and it was just for listening . phd e: yeah . professor c: yeah . grad a: and for listening it seems to work really well . professor c: ok . phd e: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd e: yeah . grad a: so . professor c: yeah . but that 's grad a: but , it 's not not a good measure . professor c: right . so th phd e: yeah . professor c: ok . so yeah there there there there 's a good chance then given that different people do talk different amounts that there is there there is still a lot more to be gained from gain norm normalization with some sort phd e: yeah . yeah . mmm . grad a: yes , absolutely . professor c: if if we can figure out a way to do it . phd e: yeah . professor c: uh . but we were agreed that in addition to that { comment } uh there should be s stuff related to pitch and harmonics and so forth . phd e: yeah . professor c: so we did n't talk at all about uh the other derivatives , but uh again just just looking at uh , i think uh liz has a very good point , that in fact it would be much more graphic just to show well , actually , you do have some distributions here , uh for these cases . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor c: you have some histograms , um and uh , they do n't look very separate . phd e: yeah . professor c: uh separated . phd e: this is the the first derivate of log of frame energy uh without any kind of normalization . phd d: what professor c: yeah . yeah . yeah . phd d: log energy . sorry . phd e: these the these are the the first experiments uh with comment uh phd d: frame energy . grad a: except that it 's hard to judge this because the they 're not normalized . it 's just number of frames . phd d: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd e: yeah . grad a: but yeah , even so . phd d: w i mean , what i meant is , even if you use linear , you know , raw measures , like raw energy or whatever , professor c: `` number `` phd d: maybe we should n't make any assumptions about the distribution 's shape , and just use you know , use the distribution to model the the mean , or what y you know , rather than the mean take some professor c: yeah . but and so in in these he 's got that . phd d: yeah . professor c: he 's got some pictures . but he does n't he does n't in the he i phd e: yeah . professor c: just in derivatives , but not in the phd d: yeah . oh . professor c: but he d but he does n't does n't phd d: right . so , we do n't know what they look like on the , tsk { comment } for the raw . professor c: but he did n't h have it for the energy . he had it for the derivatives . yeah . phd d: yeah . so . i mean , there might be something there . i do n't know . professor c: yeah . phd d: huh . grad a: interesting phd e: here i i professor c: oh that yeah that 's a good q phd e: in no i i i have n't the result professor c: did did you have this sort of thing , for just the just the l r uh the the unnormalized log energy ? ok . yeah . so she she 's right . phd e: but it 's the it 's the the the following . professor c: that 's a phd d: well it might be just good to know what it looks like . professor c: yeah . that 's that 's uh cuz i 'd mentioned scatter plots before but she 's right , phd d: cuz phd e: huh ? professor c: i mean , even before you get the scatter plots , just looking at a single feature uh , looking at the distribution , is a good thing to do . phd e: yeah . catal - uh combining the different possibilities of uh the parameters . i i i i mean the the the scatter plot combining eh different n two combination . professor c: yeah , but but what she 's saying is , which is right , is le phd e: combination of two , of energy and derivate professor c: i mean , let 's start with the before we get complicated , let 's start with the most basic wh thing , which is we 're arguing that if you take energy uh if you look at the energy , that , when two people are speaking at the same time , usually there 'll be more energy than when one is right ? phd e: yeah . professor c: that 's that sort of hypothesis . phd e: that 's right . professor c: and the first way you 'd look at that , uh s she 's , you know , absolutely right , is that you would just take a look at the distribution of those two things , much as you 've plotted them here , phd e: yeah . professor c: you know , but just but just just uh do it phd e: yeah . professor c: well in this case you have three . you have the silence , and that that 's fine . phd e: yeah . professor c: so , uh with three colors or three shades or whatever , just just look at those distributions . phd e: yeah . professor c: and then , given that as a base , you can see if that gets improved , you know , or or or worsened by the looking at regular energy , looking at log energy , we were just proposing that maybe it 's you know , it 's harder to see with the log energy , um and uh also these different normalizations , does a particular choice of normalization make it better ? phd e: yeah . professor c: but i had maybe made it too complicated by suggesting early on , that you look at scatter plots because that 's looking at a distribution in two dimensions . let 's start off just in one , uh , with this feature . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor c: i think that 's probably the most basic thing , before anything very complicated . phd e: yeah . professor c: um and then we w i think we 're agreed that pitch - related things are are are going to be a a really likely candidate to help . phd d: yeah . phd e: yeah . i agree , yeah . uh - huh . professor c: um but since uh your intuition from looking at some of the data , is that when you looked at the regular energy , that it did in fact usually go up , when two people were talking , that 's eh you know , you should be able to come up with a measure which will match your intuition . phd e: ok . yeah . yeah . yeah , yeah , yeah . professor c: and she 's right , that a that having a having { comment } having this table , with a whole bunch of things , with the standard deviation , the variance and so forth , it 's it 's it 's harder to interpret than just looking at the the same kind of picture you have here . phd e: but uh - huh . yeah . but it it 's curious but uh i f i found it in the in the mixed file , in one channel that eh in several oh e eh several times eh you have an speaker talking alone with a high level of energy professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd e: eh in the middle eh a zone of overlapping with mmm less energy professor c: mm - hmm . phd e: and eh come with another speaker with high energy professor c: mm - hmm . phd e: and the overlapping zone has eh less energy . professor c: yeah . so there 'll be some cases for which phd e: because there reach very many professor c: but , the qu so so they 'll be phd d: right . professor c: this is i w want to point to visual things , but i mean they there 'll be time there 'll be overlap between the distributions , but the question is , `` if it 's a reasonable feature at all , there 's some separation . `` phd e: yeah . yeah . phd d: especially locally . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: so . locally . phd e: just locally , yeah . grad a: and i was just going to say that that right now we 're just exploring . phd d: and the other thing is i sorry . i grad a: what you would imagine eventually , is that you 'll feed all of these features into some discriminative system . phd e: yeah . professor c: yeah . grad a: and so even if if one of the features does a good job at one type of overlap , another feature might do a good job at another type of overlap . phd e: yeah . yeah . yeah . professor c: right . i mean the the reason i had suggested the scatter f p features is i used to do this a lot , when we had thirteen or fifteen or twenty features to look at . phd e: yeah , this is the professor c: um because something is a good feature uh by itself , you do n't really know how it 'll behave in combination and so it 's nice to have as many as many together at the same time as possible in uh in some reasonable visual form . there 's cool graphic things people have had sometimes to put together three or four in some funny funny way . but it 's true that you should n't do any of that unless you know that the individual ones , at least , have have some uh some hope phd e: yeah . phd d: well , especially for normalizing . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: i mean , it 's really important to pick a normalization that matches the distribution for that feature . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and it may not be the same for all the types of overlaps or the windows may not be the same . e actually , i was wondering , right now you 're taking a all of the speech , from the whole meeting , and you 're trying to find points of overlap , but we do n't really know which speaker is overlapping with which speaker , professor c: right . phd d: right ? so i mean another way would just be to take the speech from just , say , morgan , and just jane and then just their overlaps , phd e: yeah . phd d: like but by hand , by cheating , and looking at you know , if you can detect something that way , because if we ca n't do it that way , there 's no good way that we 're going to be able to do it . grad a: no prayer . phd d: that you know , there might be something helpful and cleaner about looking at just individuals and then that combination alone . phd e: yeah . phd d: plus , i think it has more elegant e professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: the m the right model will be easier to see that way . so if i do n't know , if you go through and you find adam , cuz he has a lot of overlaps and some other speaker who also has e enough speech phd e: yeah . phd d: and just sort of look at those three cases of adam and the other person and the overlaps , phd e: yeah . phd d: maybe and just look at the distributions , maybe there is a clear pattern phd e: yeah . phd d: but we just ca n't see it because there 's too many combinations of of people that can overlap . phd e: uh - huh . yeah . postdoc b: i had the same intuition last last last week . phd d: so . just seems sort of complex . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: i think it 's to start with it 's s your your idea of simplifying , starting with something that you can see eh you know without the extra layers of phd d: right . cuz if energy does n't matter there , like i do n't think this is true , but what if phd e: to study individual ? postdoc b: sorry , what ? phd d: hmm ? phd e: to study individual ? postdoc b: well , you you you do n't have to study everybody individually phd d: well , to study the simplest case to get rid of extra phd e: the the the but consider postdoc b: but just simple case and the one that has the lot of data associated with it . phd d: right . cuz what if it 's the case and i do n't think this is true grad a: that was a great overlap by the way . phd d: what if it 's the case that when two people overlap they equate their you know , there 's a conservation of energy and everybody both people talk more softly ? i do n't think this happens at all . postdoc b: or or what if what if the equipment what if the equipment adjusts somehow , phd d: or they get louder . postdoc b: there 's some equalizing in there ? phd d: yeah or professor c: uh , no we do n't have that . phd d: i mean . grad a: well , but but i think that 's what i was saying about different types of overlap . postdoc b: ok . professor c: but . postdoc b: saturation . phd d: there are there are different types , and within those types , like as jose was saying , that sounded like a backchannel overlap , meaning the kind that 's a friendly encouragement , like `` mm - hmm . `` , `` great ! `` , `` yeah ! `` phd e: yeah . phd d: and it does n't take you do n't take the floor . um , but , some of those , as you showed , i think can be discriminated by the duration of the overlap . phd e: yeah . phd d: so . it actually the s new student , don , who um adam has met , and he was at one of our meetings he 's getting his feet wet and then he 'll be starting again in mid - january . he 's interested in trying to distinguish the types of overlap . i do n't know if he 's talked with you yet . but in sort of honing in on these different types phd e: yeah . i do n't consi now i do n't consider that possibility . phd d: and so maybe phd e: this is a s a general studio of the overlapping we 're studying the i professor c: yeah . well i i i i would s actually still recommend that he do the overall thing phd d: so it might be something that we can help by categorizing some of them and then , you know , look at that . professor c: because it would be the quickest thing for him to do . he could you see , he already has all his stuff in place , phd d: yeah . professor c: he has the histogram mechanism , he has the stuff that subtracts out and all he has to do is change it uh uh from from log to plain energy and plot the histogram and look at it . and then he should go on and do the other stuff bec but but this will phd d: yeah . yeah , no . i did n't mean that that for you to do that , but i was thinking if if don and i are trying to get categories professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: and we label some data for you , and we say this is what we think is going so you do n't have to worry about it . and here 's the three types of overlaps . phd e: yeah . phd d: and we 'll we 'll do the labelling for you . phd e: yeah . professor c: hm - hmm . phd d: um . phd e: consider different class of overlap ? phd d: yeah , that we would be working on anyway . phd e: if there 's time . phd d: then maybe you can try some different things for those three cases , and see if that helps , or phd e: yeah . yeah . this is the thing i i comment with you before , that uh we have a great variation of th situation of overlapping . professor c: mm - hmm . phd e: and the behavior for energy is , uh log energy , is not uh the same all the time . phd d: mm - hmm . phd e: and professor c: but i guess i was just saying that that right now uh from the means that you gave , i do n't have any sense of whether even , you know , there are any significant number of cases for which there is distinct and i would imagine there should be some you know , there should be the distributions should be somewhat separated . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor c: uh and i i would still guess that if they are not separated at all , that there 's some there 's there 's most likely something wrong in the way that we 're measuring it . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor c: um , but um for instance , i mean i would n't expect that it was very common overall , that when two people were talking at the same time , that it would that it really was lower , phd e: yeah . professor c: although sometimes , as you say , it would . phd e: yeah . professor c: so . so . phd d: yeah , no , that was that was a jok phd e: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd d: or a sort of , a case where where you would never know that unless you actually go and look at two individuals . professor c: i mean . no . it could it probably does happen sometimes . phd e: yeah . grad a: right . professor c: yeah . yeah . grad a: mind if i turned that light off ? phd e: yeah . phd d: so . grad a: the flickering is annoying me . professor c: ok . phd d: it might the case , though , that the significant energy , just as jose was saying , comes in the non - backchannel cases . because in back most people when they 're talking do n't change their own energy when they get a backchannel , cuz they 're not really predicting the backchannel . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and sometimes it 's a nod and sometimes it 's an `` mm - hmm `` . phd e: yeah . phd d: and the `` mm - hmm `` is really usually very low energy . phd e: yeah . phd d: so maybe those do n't actually have much difference in energy . but all the other cases might . professor c: e e and and again what they what difference there was would kind of be lost in taking the log , phd d: and the backchannels are sort of easy to spot s in terms of their words or i mean , just listen to it . phd e: yeah . phd d: so . professor c: so , as well . phd d: well , it would be lost no matter what you do . phd e: but yeah . phd d: it just professor c: mmm , no , if it 's if i if it 's grad a: tone professor c: well , it wo n't be as big . phd d: i mean , even if you take the log , you can your model just has a more sensitive measures . phd e: yeah . grad a: sure , but tone might be very phd d: so . grad a: yeah , you 're `` mm - hmm `` tone is going to be very different . phd d: yeah . right . right . grad a: you could imagine doing specialized ones for different types of backchannels , if you could if you had a good model for it . your `` mm - hmm `` detector . professor c: if if you 're a i guess my point is , if you 're doing essentially a linear separation , taking the log first does in fact make it harder to separate . grad a: right . professor c: so it 's so , uh if you i i so i if there if there close to things it does phd e: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor c: it 's a nonlinear operation that does in fact change the distinction . if you 're doing a non if you 're doing some fancy thing then then yeah . and right now we 're essentially doing this linear thing by looking across here and and saying we 're going to cut it here . um and that that 's the indicator that we 're getting . but anyway , yeah , we 're not disagreeing on any of this , we should look at it more uh more finely , but uh uh i think that this often happens , you do fairly complicated things , and then you stand back from them and you realize that you have n't done something simple . so uh , if you generated something like that just for the energy and see , and then , a a a as as liz says , when they g have uh uh smaller um , more coherent groups to look at , that would be another interesting thing later . phd e: uh - huh . professor c: and then that should give us some indication between those , should give us some indication of whether there 's anything to be achieved f from energy at all . phd e: uh - huh . professor c: and then you can move on to the uh uh more pitch related stuff . phd e: mm - hmm . i i i think this is a good idea . professor c: ok . postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd e: not consider the log energy . professor c: yeah . but then the have you started looking at the pitch related stuff at all , or ? pitch related ? phd e: the ? professor c: harmonicity and so on ? phd e: i i 'm preparing the the program but i do n't i do n't begin because eh i saw your email professor c: preparing to yeah . phd e: and i agree with you it 's better to i suppose it 's better to to consider the the energy this kind of parameter bef professor c: yeah . oh , that 's not what i meant . no , no . i i i i well , we certainly should see this but i i i i think that the harm i certainly was n't saying this was better than the harmonicity and pitch related things i was just saying phd e: i i go on with the with the pitch , professor c: yeah . phd e: aha ! ok . professor c: yeah , i was just saying phd e: i i i i understood uh that eh i i had to finish by the moment with the and and concentrate my my energy in that problem . professor c: ok . ok . ok . but i think , like , all these derivatives and second derivatives and all these other very fancy things , i think i would just sort of look at the energy and then get into the harmonicity as as a suggestion . phd e: ok . i go on with the pitch . professor c: uh ok . so maybe uh since w we 're trying to uh compress the meeting , um , i know adam had some form stuff he wanted to talk about and did you have some ? postdoc b: i wanted to ask just s something on the end of this top topic . so , when i presented my results about the uh distribution of overlaps and the speakers and the profiles of the speakers , at the bottom of that i did have a proposal , phd e: uh - huh . postdoc b: and i had plan to go through with it , of of co coding the types of overlaps that people were involved in s just with reference to speaker style so , you know , with reference phd d: oh . postdoc b: and you know i said that on my in my summary , phd d: that 'd be great . postdoc b: that you know so it 's like people may have different amounts of being overlapped with or overlapping phd d: yeah , i remem right . postdoc b: but that in itself is not informative without knowing what types of overlaps they 're involved in so i was planning to do a taxonomy of types overlaps with reference to that . phd d: that would be great . postdoc b: so , but it you know it 's like it sounds like you also have uh something in that direction . phd d: that would be really great . phd e: yeah . grad a: hmm . postdoc b: is is it phd d: we have nothing you know , basically , we got his environment set up . he 's he 's a double - e { comment } you know . so . it 's mostly that , if we had to label it ourselves , we we would or we 'd have to , to get started , but if it it would be much better if you can do it . you 'd be much better { comment } at doing it also because you know , i i 'm not i do n't have a good feel for how they should be sorted out , postdoc b: interesting . phd d: and i really did n't wan na go into that if i did n't have to . so if if you 're w willing to do that or or grad a: it would be interesting , though , to talk , maybe not at the meeting , but at some other time about what are the classes . postdoc b: well maybe we can ok . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: i think that 's a research effort in and of itself , phd e: yeah . grad a: yeah , it would be interesting . phd d: because you can read the literature , but i do n't know how it 'll turn out phd e: yeah . phd d: and , you know , it 's always an interesting question . postdoc b: it seems like we also s with reference to a purpose , too , that we we 'd want to have them coded . phd e: i would think it 's interesting , yeah . yeah . phd d: that 'd be great . grad a: yep . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: ok . phd d: that 'd be really great . postdoc b: i can do that . phd d: and we 'd still have some funding for this project , phd e: uh uh phd d: like probably , if we had to hire some like an undergrad , because uh don is being covered half time on something else postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: i mean , he we 're not paying him the full ra - ship for all the time . so . um if we got it to where we wanted we needed someone to do that i do n't think there 's really enough data where where postdoc b: mm - hmm . yeah , i see this as a prototype , to use the only the the already transcribed meeting as just a prototype . phd e: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd e: i i think a a another parameter we c we we can consider is eh the duration . phd d: but grad a: mm - hmm . phd e: another e e m besides eh the the class of overlap , the duration . because is possible eh some s s um eh some classes eh has eh a type of a duration , eh , a duration very short uh when we have we have overlapping with speech . postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah , definitely . postdoc b: yeah , maybe it may be correlated . mm - hmm . phd e: is possible to have . and it 's interesting , i think , to consider the the window of normalization , normalization window . eh because eh if we have a type of , a kind of eh overlap , eh backchannel overlap , with a short duration , is possible eh to normali i i that if we normalize eh with eh eh consider only the the eh window eh by the left eh ri eh side on the right side overlapping with a a very eh oh a small window eh the if the fit of normalization is eh mmm bigger eh in that overlapping zone eh very short postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah , that 's true . the window should n't be larger than the backchannel . phd e: i i me i i understand . i mean that you have eh you have a backchannel , eh , eh you have a overlapping zone very short phd d: yeah . phd e: and you consider eh n eh all the channel to normalize this very short eh professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd e: for example `` mmm mm - hmm hmm `` eh and the energy is not eh height eh i think if you consider all the channel to normalize and the channel is mmm bigger eh eh eh compared with the with the overlapping eh duration , professor c: mm - hmm . phd e: eh the effect is mmm stronger eh that i i mean the the e effect of the normalization eh with the mean and the and the variance eh is different that if you consider only a window compared eh with the n the duration of overlapping . professor c: mm - hmm . you you want it around the overlapping part . phd e: not yeah . professor c: you want it to include something that 's not in overlapping phd e: yeah . postdoc b: mm - hmm . professor c: but but uh phd e: yeah . i i do n't know . professor c: yeah . phd e: is s if phd d: well it 's a sliding window , right ? so if you take the the measure in the center of the overlapped piece , you know , there 'd better be some something . professor c: mm - hmm . phd e: yeah . yeah . phd d: but if your window is really huge then yeah you 're right you wo n't even phd e: yeah , this is the this is the the idea , to consider only the the small window near near near the the overlapping zone . phd d: the portion of the { comment } of the backchannel wo n't wo n't effect anything . but you yeah . so . you know , you should n't be more than like you should definitely not be three times as big as your as your backchannel . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: then you 're gon na w have a wash . and hopefully it 's more like on the order of professor c: i 'm not sure that 's necessarily true . phd e: yeah ? postdoc b: it is an empirical question , it seems like . professor c: because because it because um again if you 're just compensating for the gain , phd d: yea phd e: yeah . postdoc b: yeah . professor c: you know , the fact that this this gain thing was crude , and the gain wh if someone is speaking relatively at consistent level , just to to give a an extreme example , all you 're doing is compensating for that . and then you still s and then if you look at the frame with respect to that , it still should should uh change phd d: yeah , it depends how different your normalization is , as you slide your window across . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: i mean . that 's something we do n't know . postdoc b: it 's possible to try it both ways , grad a: well , i mean we 're also talking about a couple of different things . postdoc b: is n't it ? in this small grad a: i mean , one is your analysis window and then the other is any sort of normalization that you 're doing . phd d: yeah i was talking about the n normalization window . grad a: and the and they could be quite different . professor c: right . phd d: yeah . phd e: yeah . professor c: this was sort of where where we were last week . grad a: yep . phd d: yeah . that 's true . yeah . professor c: but , anyway we we 'll have to look at some core things . postdoc b: ok . phd d: um . but that 'd be great if if you 're marking those phd e: ok . postdoc b: great . phd d: and um . postdoc b: ok . phd d: but it is definitely true that we need to have the time marks , phd e: yeah . postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: and i was assuming that will be inherited because , if you have the words and they 're roughly aligned in time via forced alignment or whatever we end up using , then you know , this student and i would be looking at the time marks postdoc b: yep , i agree . mm - hmm . coming off of the other phd d: and classifying all the frames inside those as whatever labels jane gave phd e: yeah . postdoc b: good . so , it would n't be i was n't planning to label the time marks . phd d: phd e: i can give you my transcription file , postdoc b: i was thinking that that would come from the engineering side , phd d: i do n't think you need to . phd e: no ? postdoc b: yeah . phd d: yeah . that should be linked to the words which are linked to time somehow , postdoc b: there you go . grad a: well we 're not any time soon going to get a forced alignment . phd d: right ? not now . grad a: so . phd e: yeah . grad a: um if it 's not hand - marked then we 're not going to get the times . phd d: well , it 's something that w well , we we would n't be able to do any work without a forced alignment anyway , phd e: yes phd d: so somehow if once he gets going we 're gon na hafta come up with one professor c: yes . phd d: and yeah . grad a: i mean w i guess we could do a very bad one with broadcast news . postdoc b: good . good . phd d: so whatever you would label would be attached to the words , i think . postdoc b: great ! good , good . mm - hmm . phd e: yeah . professor c: well again for the close mike stuff , we could come up take a s take the switchboard system or something , grad a: that might be good enough . yeah . professor c: and um grad a: it 'd be worth a try . it would be interesting to see what we get . professor c: just , you know , low - pass filter the speech and phd d: cuz there 's there 's a lot of work you ca n't do without that , i mean , how how would you professor c: yeah . phd d: you 'd have to go in and measure every start and stop point next to a word grad a: yep . postdoc b: it would be very inefficient . phd d: is y if you 're interested in anything to do with words . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: so . anyway so that 'd be great . postdoc b: good . ok . phd e: yeah . professor c: there 's something we should talk about later but maybe not just now . but , uh , should talk about our options as far as the uh uh transcription grad a: yep , if ibm does n't professor c: but . well , w but we 'll do that later . postdoc b: ok . good . phd d: do we hafta turn postdoc b: yeah . let 's do that later . phd d: are we supposed to keep recording here ? grad a: yeah right . postdoc b: yeah . professor c: we 'll talk about it later . postdoc b: yeah . professor c: so uh uh `` forms `` . grad a: forms next iteration of forms . professor c: you had something on forms . grad a: oops . postdoc b: oh ! oh good , ok . professor c: um . oh . postdoc b: how so it 's two pages per person ? grad a: nope . one 's a digit form , one 's a speaker form . postdoc b: oh ! grad a: so one is a one time only speaker form and the other is the digits . postdoc b: oh , i see . phd e: oh it 's the same . oh no no . is is new is ok . grad a: so do n't fill these out . postdoc b: alright . grad a: this is just the suggestion for uh what the new forms would look like . so , they incorporate the changes that we talked about . postdoc b: date and time . uh why did you switch the order of the date and time fields ? this is rather a low - level , but grad a: on which one ? postdoc b: on on the new one , time comes first and then date , but i thought grad a: oh you mean on the digit form ? postdoc b: this is this is rather a low level question , but but it used used to be date came first . grad a: uh , because the user fills out the first three fields and i fill out the rest . postdoc b: oh i see . grad a: so it was intentional . postdoc b: well , how would the how would the user know the time if they did n't know the date ? grad a: it 's an interesting observation , but it was intentional . because the date is when you actually read the digits and the time and , excuse me , the time is when you actually read the digits , but i 'm filling out the date beforehand . if you look at the form in front of you ? that you 're going to fill out when you read the digits ? you 'll see i 've already filled in the date but not the time . postdoc b: yeah . i always assumed so the time is supposed to be pretty exact , because i 've just been taking beginning time time of the meeting . phd d: yeah , me too . grad a: yeah , i 've noticed that in the forms . phd e: yeah , i yeah . grad a: the the reason i put the time in , is so that the person who 's extracting the digits , meaning me , will know where to look in the meeting , to try to find the digits . phd d: phd e: me too . oh ! postdoc b: oh dear . we 've been we 've been messing up your forms . phd e: but i am put i am putting the beginning of the meeting . grad a: i know . phd d: so you should call it , like , `` digits start time `` . or . grad a: and i have n't said anything . yep . phd e: in on there . professor c: why what what were you putting in ? postdoc b: oh , well , i was saying if we started the meeting at two thirty , phd e: yeah . postdoc b: i 'd put two thirty , and i guess d e everyone was putting two thirty , professor c: oh . phd e: yeah . grad a: no , it 's about fifty fifty . postdoc b: and i did n't realize there was `` uh oh i 'm about to read this and i should `` grad a: actually it 's about one third each . about one third of them are blank , about one third of them are when the digits are read , and about one third of them are when the meeting starts . so . phd e: oh . postdoc b: this would be a radical suggestion but grad a: i could put instructions ? nah . postdoc b: ei - either that or maybe you could maybe write down when people start reading digits on that particular session . phd e: yeah . grad a: but if i 'm not at the meeting , i ca n't do that . postdoc b: i know , ok . that 's a good point . professor c: yeah , he 's been setting stuff up and going away . so . postdoc b: i see . good point good point . professor c: for some reason he does n't want to sit through every meeting that 's grad a: yep , but that is the reason name , email and time are where they are . postdoc b: oh , ok . alright . professor c: yeah . postdoc b: i rest my grad a: and then the others are later on . professor c: uh - huh . postdoc b: ok . w phd e: and the seat is this number ? grad a: mm - hmm . postdoc b: seat and session . phd d: `` for official use only `` that 's well , he 's very professional . phd e: `` use only `` postdoc b: actually you could well that does raise another question , which is why is the `` professional use only `` line not higher ? why does n't it come in at the point of date and seat ? oh . because we 're filling in other things . grad a: what ? professor c: what ? postdoc b: well , because if y your your professional use , you 're gon na already have the date , and the s grad a: what which form are you talking about ? postdoc b: well i 'm comparing the new one with the old one . this is the digit form . phd e: oh . grad a: oh you 're talking about the digit form . professor c: digit . digit form . phd e: yeah . grad a: the digit form does n't the digit postdoc b: oh ! i was n't supposed to phd e: yeah . grad a: no , that 's alright . postdoc b: sorry . sorry . grad a: the digit form does n't have a `` for official use only `` line . it just has a line , which is what you 're supposed to read . postdoc b: that uh ok . grad a: so on the digits form , everything above the line is a fill - in form postdoc b: sorry about that . yeah . grad a: and everything below the line is digits that the user reads . postdoc b: yeah . ok . alright s but i did n't mean to derail our discussion here , so you really wanted to start with this other form . grad a: no , either way is fine i just you just started talking about something , and i did n't know which form you were referring to . postdoc b: alright yeah , i was comparing so th this is so i was looking at the change first . so it 's like we started with this and now we 've got a new version of it wi with reference to this . so the digit form , we had one already . now the f the fields are slightly different . professor c: so the main thing that the person fills out um is the name and email and time ? phd e: yeah . grad a: right . professor c: you do the rest ? phd e: ah ! grad a: yep . just as uh as i have for all the others . postdoc b: what and there 's an addition of the native language , which is a bit redundant . professor c: right . postdoc b: this one has native language and this one does too . grad a: that 's because the one , the digit form that has native language is the old form not the new form . postdoc b: oh ! thank you . thank you , thank you . there we go . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: oh , yeah . i 'll catch up here . ok , i see . professor c: `` south midland , north midland `` postdoc b: that 's the old and that 's the new . grad a: yeah this was the problem with these categories , i i picked those categories from timit . i do n't know what those are . phd d: actually , the only way i know is from working with the database and having to figure it out . phd e: what grad a: with timit , yeah ? phd e: uh - huh . grad a: so , i was gon na ask phd e: what i professor c: so is south midland like kansas ? grad a: wh w i mean . professor c: and north midland like like uh illinois , or ? phd d: well yeah . nor - um phd e: yeah . grad a: so so what accent are we speaking ? western ? professor c: by definition ? phd e: and for simple for for me ? professor c: well , phd d: probably western , yeah . phd e: is mean my native language spanish spanish ? eh the original is the center of spain and the beca grad a: yeah , i mean you could call it whatever you want . for the foreign language we could n't classify every single one . so i just left it blank and you can put whatever you want . phd e: because is different , the span - uh the spanish language from the the north of spain , of the south , of the west and the grad a: sure . phd e: but . grad a: so i 'm not sure what to do about the region field for english variety . you know , when i wrote i was writing those down , i was thinking , `` you know , these are great if you 're a linguist `` . phd e: yeah . grad a: but i do n't know how to i do n't know how to i do n't know how to categorize them . postdoc b: yeah . phd d: actually even if you t postdoc b: yeah . professor c: if you 're if e if y phd d: this was n't developed by th these regions were n't professor c: if you 're a ti or mit from nineteen eighty - five . grad a: yeah so i guess my only question was if if you were a south midland speaking region , person ? would you know it ? professor c: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . grad a: is that what you would call yourself ? phd d: i do n't know . grad a: yeah . professor c: you know , i think if you 're talking if you 're thinking in terms of places , as opposed to names different peop names people have given to different ways of talking , i would think north midwest , and south midwest would be more common than saying midland , right , i mean , i i went to s phd d: yeah . now the usage maybe we can give them a li like a little map ? with the regions and they just no , i 'm serious . postdoc b: no , that 's not bad . yeah . phd d: because it takes less time , and it 's sort of cute phd e: i at this in that side in that side of the the paper . phd d: there 's no figure . professor c: well . phd d: well just a little you know , it does n't have all the detail , but you sort of professor c: but what if you moved five times and and uh postdoc b: well , i was thinking you could have ma multiple ones and then the amount of time phd d: no , but you 're categorized . that 's the same postdoc b: so , roughly . so . you could say , you know `` ten years on the east coast , five years on the west coast `` or something or other . grad a: well , we i think we do n't want to get that level of detail at this form . i think that 's alright if we want to follow up . but . professor c: i guess we do n't really know . phd d: i mean i as i said , i do n't think there 's a huge benefit to this region thing . it it gets the problem is that for some things it 's really clear and usually listening to { comment } it you can tell right away if it 's a new york or boston accent , but new york and boston are two well , i guess they have the nyc , but new england has a bunch of very different dialects and postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: and so does um s so do other places . grad a: yeah , so i picked these regions cuz we had talked about timit , and those are right from timit . phd d: right . and so these would be satisfying like a speech research community if we released the database , grad a: so . phd d: but as to whether subjects know where they 're from , i 'm not sure because um i know that they had to fill this out for switchboard . this is i almost exactly the same as switchboard regions postdoc b: oh . ok . phd d: or very close . yeah . um and i do n't know how they filled that out . but th if midland yeah , midland is the one that 's difficult i guess . postdoc b: i think a lot of people yeah . phd d: also northwest you 've got oreg - washington and oregon now which uh y people do n't know if it 's western or northern . grad a: yeah , i certainly do n't . i mean , i was saying i do n't even know what i speak . phd d: it 's like northwest grad a: am i speaking am i speaking western ? professor c: oh , what is northern ? well and what and what 's northern ? phd d: i think originally it was north northwest grad a: northwest ? phd d: but phd e: yeah . grad a: yeah , so this is a real problem . i do n't know what to do about it . phd d: yeah . postdoc b: i would n't know how to characterize mine either . and and so i would think i would say , i 've i 've got a mix of california and ohio . grad a: i c i think at the first level , for example , we speak the same . phd d: i do n't know . grad a: our our dialects or whatever you region are the same . postdoc b: uh - huh . grad a: but i do n't know what it is . so . phd d: well , you have a like techno - speak accent i think . grad a: a techno - speak accent ? phd d: yeah , you know ? phd e: a techno grad a: a a geek region ? phd d: well it 's i mean i you can sort of identify postdoc b: geek region . phd d: it f it 's it 's not not that that 's phd e: is different . is different . phd d: but but maybe that maybe we could leave this and see what people see what people choose and then um let them just fill in if they do n't i mean i do n't know what else we can do , cuz that 's north midland . postdoc b: i 'm wondering about a question like , `` where are you from mostly ? `` phd e: yeah . professor c: but i i 'm s i 'm now that you mentioned it though , i am really am confused by `` northern `` . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: i agree . i agree . professor c: i really am . postdoc b: i agree . professor c: i mean , if if you 're in new england , that 's north . phd e: yeah . professor c: if you 're i if you 're postdoc b: scandinavian , the minnesota area 's north . professor c: uh yeah . that 's but that 's also north midland , phd e: yeah . postdoc b: oh , @ @ . ok . professor c: right ? postdoc b: professor c: and and and oregon and and oregon and washington are are western , but they 're also northern . phd d: yeah . of course , that 's very different from , like , michigan , or phd e: mmm . postdoc b: mm - hmm . professor c: uh , idaho ? phd d: well there are hardly any subjects from idaho . professor c: montana ? grad a: no problem . postdoc b: just rule them out . phd d: there 's only a few people in idaho . grad a: there are hardly any subjects from `` beep `` phd e: yeah . phd d: sorry . professor c: maybe maybe we maybe we should put a little map and say `` put an x on where you 're from `` , phd d: no , that 's phd e: and is in those grad a: yeah really . phd d: we could ask where they 're from . phd e: and if you put postdoc b: it 'd be pretty simple , yeah . phd d: yeah . but - we went back to that . phd e: yeah . if you put eh the state ? grad a: well well we sort of postdoc b: where are you from mostly ? phd d: we we went we went around this and then a lot of people ended up saying that it phd e: uh - huh . mm - hmm . phd d: you know . grad a: well , i like the idea of asking `` what variety of english do you speak `` as opposed to where you 're from because th if we start asking where we 're from , again you have to start saying , `` well , is that the language you speak or is that just where you 're from ? `` phd e: yeah . postdoc b: hmm ? phd d: right . right . phd e: yeah . professor c: let 's mm - hmm . phd d: i mean it gives us good information on where they 're from , but that does n't { comment } tell us anything grad a: and professor c: we could always ask them if they 're from phd d: well , enough about their grad a: i mean . so so i would say germany phd d: like grad a: you know am i speaking with german accent postdoc b: oh . grad a: i do n't think so . postdoc b: well , see , i 'm thinking `` where are you from mostly `` phd d: right . grad a: oh , ok yeah . postdoc b: because , you know , then you have some some kind of subjective amount of time factored into it . phd e: yeah . yeah . grad a: yep . yeah , i guess i could try to put squeeze in a little map . phd e: yeah . grad a: i mean there 's not a lot of r of room professor c: i 'd say , uh , `` boston , new york city , the south and regular `` . postdoc b: well phd d: oh , i do n't know . grad a: i think of those , northern is the only one that i do n't even know what they 're meaning . postdoc b: yeah . yeah . phd e: and and um and usually here people here know what is their kind of mmm lang english language ? professor c: that 's a joke . that 's phd d: so let 's make it up . s i mean , who cares . right ? we can make up our own so we can say `` northwest `` , `` rest of west `` or something . you know . `` west `` and i mean . grad a: ye i do n't think the northwest people speak any differently than i do . phd d: it does n't even yeah , exactly . that 's not really a region . postdoc b: i professor c: `` do you come from the louisiana purchase ? `` phd d: so we could take out `` north `` `` northern `` . grad a: that that 's exactly what we 're arguing about . phd e: eh here is easy for people to know ? phd d: that 's yeah , w it 's in it 's it 's harder in america anywhere else , basically . grad a: we do n't know . phd e: because you have grad a: i mean some of them are very obvious . if you if you talk to someone speaking with southern drawl , you know . phd e: n m yeah . postdoc b: yeah , or boston . grad a: or boston , yeah . postdoc b: i ca n't do it , but phd e: or boston ? professor c: yeah . phd d: and those people , if you ask them to self - identify their accent they know . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: yeah , they do . phd d: they know very well . postdoc b: yeah i agree i agree . i agree . phd d: they know they do n't speak the same as the grad a: but is boston new england ? postdoc b: and they 're proud of it . phd d: day o postdoc b: yeah . phd d: yeah , exactly . postdoc b: it 's identity thing . phd d: and they 're glad to tell you . phd e: style . phd d: well . depends who you ask , i suppose . grad a: w i guess that 's the problem with these categories . phd e: phd d: but that 's why they have new york city but postdoc b: well , we ca well , why ca n't we just say characterize something like char characterize your accent professor c: well , boston 's @ @ , too . phd d: or `` characterize your accent if you can . `` postdoc b: and and so i would say , `` i do n't know `` . phd d: yeah . right , which probably means you have a very postdoc b: but someone from boston with a really strong coloration would know . and so would an r - less maine or something , phd d: and that 's actually good . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: yeah . phd d: i was i was thinking of something along that line professor c: how postdoc b: good . phd d: because if you do n't know , then , you know , ruling out the fact that you 're totally inept or something , postdoc b: hmm . phd d: if somebody does n't know , it probably means their accent is n't very strong compared to the sort of midwest standard . professor c: well , i mean , it was n't that long ago that we had somebody here who was from texas who was absolutely sure that he did n't have any accent left . postdoc b: hmm ? professor c: and and had he had a pretty noticeable drawl . grad a: ok , so . i propose , take out northern add , do n't know . postdoc b: oh . yeah . i i would say more more sweepingly , `` how would you characterize your accent ? `` phd e: yeah . grad a: so you want to change the instructions also not just say region ? phd d: w postdoc b: well , i think this discussion has made me think that 's s something to consider . grad a: i do n't know if i if i read this form , i think they 're going to ask { comment } it they 're going to answer the same way if you say , `` what 's variety of english do you speak ? region . `` as if you say `` what variety of region region { comment } do you speak ? please characterize your accent ? `` they 're going to answer the same way . postdoc b: i guess well , i was not sure that i phd e: mmm . postdoc b: so . i was suggesting not having the options , just having them grad a: oh , i see . phd e: huh . grad a: well what we talked about with that is is so that they would understand the granularity . postdoc b: yes , but if , as liz is suggesting , people who have strong accents know that they do grad a: i mean that 's what i had before , and you told me to list the regions to list them . postdoc b: and are well , i know . professor c: right . phd d: each each one has pros and cons grad a: so . professor c: right . postdoc b: that 's true . professor c: right . phd d: i mean we we professor c: yeah last week last week i was sort of r arguing for having it wide open , but then everybody said `` oh , no , but then it will be hard to interpret because some people will say cincinnati and some will say ohio `` . grad a: i mean i had it wide open last week and and you said timit . professor c: and . postdoc b: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd d: what if we put in both ? grad a: that 's what the `` other `` is for . phd d: and would people no , i mean what if we put in both ways of asking them ? so . one is region and the another one is `` if you had to characterize yourself your accent , what would you say ? `` grad a: wo n't they answer the same thing ? phd d: well they might only answer only one of the questions but if postdoc b: yeah that 's fine . phd d: you know . postdoc b: they might say `` other `` for region because they do n't know what category to use phd d: actually postdoc b: but they might have something phd d: right . postdoc b: because it is easier to have it open ended . phd d: it just and we we might learn from what they say , as to which one 's a better { comment } way to ask it . professor c: w this is just a small thing phd d: but i cuz i really do n't know . professor c: but um it says `` variety `` and then it gives things that e have american as one of the choices . but then it says `` region `` , but region actually just applies to uh , us , grad a: right . professor c: right ? grad a: i mean that 's why i put the `` other `` in . postdoc b: well , we thought about it . professor c: ah , ok . postdoc b: yeah , ok . we just we sort of thought , `` yes , `` y y i mean professor c: s postdoc b: at the last meeting , my recollection was that we felt people would have uh less that that there are so many types and varieties of these other languages and we are not going to have that many subjects from these different language groups grad a: yep . postdoc b: and that it 's a huge waste of of space . professor c: ok . grad a: so i mean , i i mean the way i had it last time was region was blank , postdoc b: that 's what i thought . grad a: it just said region colon . postdoc b: yeah . grad a: and and i think that that 's the best way to do it , postdoc b: yeah . grad a: because because of the problems we 're talking about but what we said last week , was no , put in a list , so i put in a list . so should we go back to phd d: maybe we can make the list a little smaller . grad a: well , certainly dropping `` northern `` i think is right , because none of us know what that is . phd d: cuz , i mean and keeping `` other `` , and then maybe this north midland , we call it `` north midwest `` . south midwest , or just professor c: yes i i i think so . yeah . phd d: south midwest . does that make sense ? phd e: south midwest ? phd d: that would help me professor c: u unless you 're from midland , kansas . phd d: yeah . cuz midland professor c: but . yeah . phd d: i do n't know where midland is professor c: there 's a or midland midland grad a: is `` midwest `` one word ? professor c: is it midland midland midland , texas or midland , kansas ? i forget . phd d: y yeah , one w professor c: but there 's a town . in in there . phd d: oh . professor c: i forget what it is @ @ . postdoc b: i do n't think that 's what they mean . phd d: but , professor c: yeah . phd d: yeah . so . kansas would be south midland . right ? professor c: y yeah . phd d: and and would n't yeah . professor c: and colorado , right across the border , would be north midland . phd d: so , th i 'm from kansas , actually . phd e: southern midland . phd d: yeah . grad a: and uh phd d: colora oh , right . and then , the the dropping north , so it would be western . it 's just one big shebang , where , of course , you have huge variation in dialects , grad a: but that 's true of new england too . professor c: but you do in the others , too . so . phd d: but { comment } but so do you grad a: so . i mean only one phd d: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd d: yeah . yeah . grad a: well , i should n't say that . i have no clue . i was going to say the only one that does n't have a huge variety is new york city . but i have no idea whether it does or not . postdoc b: it does seem i mean . i i would think that these categories would be more w would be easier for an an analyst to put in rather than the subject himself . professor c: u grad a: i think that that was what happened with timit , was that it was an analyst . postdoc b: ok . professor c: wait a minute . where does where does d w where where 's where does uh new new york west of west of uh new york city and pennsylvania uh and uh phd d: yeah , i do n't know how it came from . postdoc b: ok . grad a: new england phd d: so . that 's new england i think . professor c: n no , it 's not . phd d: yeah . grad a: oh , no . postdoc b: i sort of thought they were part of the one of the midlands . professor c: oh no . no , no . no . pennsylvania is not grad a: `` other `` , it goes under `` other `` , definitely under `` other `` . phd d: well , you know , pennsylvania has a pretty strong dialect and it 's totally different than professor c: pennsylvania yeah . pennsylvania is not new england . and uh new jersey is not new england and maryland is not new england and none of those are the south . grad a: ok . so . another suggestion . rather than have circle fill in forms , say `` region , open paren , e g southern comma western comma close paren colon . `` postdoc b: yeah . ok . phd d: ok ! postdoc b: fine by me , fine by me . professor c: that 's good . i like that . phd d: sure ! phd e: yeah . postdoc b: yeah . professor c: we 're all sufficiently tired of this that we 're agreeing with you . phd d: let 's just and we 'll see what we get . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: be easier on the subjects . i think that 's fine . no . i think professor c: so . postdoc b: i like that . i like that . professor c: you like it ? postdoc b: yeah , i do . professor c: ok . grad a: actually , maybe we do one non - english one as well . professor c: good . grad a: southern , cockney ? phd d: yeah , and phd e: yeah . grad a: is that a real accent ? postdoc b: sure , yeah ! grad a: how do you spell it ? phd e: yeah . postdoc b: i think that 's fine . professor c: cockney ? grad a: n e professor c: co yeah . phd d: you could say liverpool . professor c: liverpuddlian . postdoc b: yeah . alright . phd d: actually , liverpool does n't l yeah . it 's i 'm s i ha postdoc b: well . well . i mean , pure grad a: ok , we 'll do it that way . actually , i like that a lot . because that get 's at both of the things we were trying to do , professor c: ok . grad a: the granularity , and the person can just self - assess and we do n't have to argue about what these regions are . postdoc b: that 's right . and it 's easy on the subjects . professor c: ok . phd e: yeah . grad a: yep . postdoc b: now i have one suggestion on the next section . phd e: mm - hmm . grad a: mm - hmm . postdoc b: so you have native language , you have region , and then you have time spent in english speaking country . now , i wonder if it might be useful to have another open field saying `` which one parenthesis s { comment } paren closed parenthesis `` . cuz if they spent time in in britain and america professor c: yes . postdoc b: it does n't have to be ex all at all exact , just in the same open field format that you have . grad a: yep , just which one . i think that 's fine . postdoc b: mm - hmm . with a with an s phd e: mm - hmm . postdoc b: `` which one sss , { comment } optional s . professor c: ok . phd e: postdoc b: yeah . professor c: we uh we done ? grad a: yep . postdoc b: yeah , that 's good . professor c: ok . um s e any any other uh open mike topics or should we go right to the digits ? grad a: um , did you guys get my email on the multitrans ? that ok . postdoc b: is n't that wonderful ! yeah . grad a: yeah . so . so . i i have a version also which actually displays all the channels . postdoc b: excellent ! thank you ! phd d: it 's really great . grad a: but it 's hideously slow . postdoc b: so you this is n dan 's patches , dan ellis 's patches . grad a: the what the ones i applied , that you can actually do are dan 's , because it does n't slow it down . phd d: m postdoc b: fantastic ! grad a: just uses a lot of memory . phd d: so when you say `` slow `` , does that mean to grad a: no , the the one that 's installed is fine . it 's not slow at all . i wrote another version . which , instead of having the one pane with the one view , it has multiple panes with the views . phd e: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . grad a: but the problem with it is the drawing of those waveforms is so slow that every time you do anything it just crawls . postdoc b: mm - hmm . grad a: it 's really bad . phd d: it 's so , it it 's the redrawing of the w postdoc b: that 's a consideration . grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: oh uh - huh , w as you move . grad a: as you play , as you move , as you scroll . just about anything , and it it was so slow it was not usable . so that 's why i did n't install it and did n't pursue it . postdoc b: and this 'll be a hav having the multiwave will be a big help cuz in terms of like disentangling overlaps and things , that 'll be a big help . phd d: oh yeah . grad a: so . i think that the one dan has is usable enough . phd d: yeah . grad a: it does n't display the others . it displays just the mixed signal . postdoc b: mm - hmm . grad a: but you can listen to any of them . postdoc b: that 's excellent . he also has version control which is another nice phd e: yeah . postdoc b: e so you e the patches that you grad a: no , he suggested that , but he did n't it 's not installed . postdoc b: oh , i thought it was in one of those patches . grad a: no . no . postdoc b: oh ok . well . alright . phd d: so is there any hope for actually displaying the wave form ? grad a: um , not if we 're going to use tcl - tk at least not if we 're going to use snack . phd d: ok . grad a: i mean you would have to do something ourselves . postdoc b: well , or use the one that crawls . phd d: ok . well , i 'm i probably would be trying to use the { comment } whatever 's there . and it 's useful to have the grad a: why do n't we we see how dan 's works and if it if we really need the display phd d: yeah . i mean . i wonder i 'm just wondering if we can display things other than the wave form . so . suppose we have a feature a feature stream . and it 's just , you know , a a uni - dimensional feature , varying in time . phd e: yeah . phd d: and we want to plot that , instead of the whole wave form . grad a: i mean . phd d: that might be faster . phd e: yeah . phd d: right ? grad a: we we could do that but that would mean changing the code . phd d: so . phd e: yeah . grad a: i mean this is n't a program we wrote . professor c: yeah . grad a: this is a program that we got from someone else , and we 've done patches on . phd d: ok . postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: ok . well , i 'll talk to you about it and we can see grad a: so . professor c: cou - i e i mean , y phd e: yeah . grad a: yeah . phd d: but it 's definitely great to have the other one . professor c: if there was some is there some way to have someone write patches in something faster and and link it in , or something ? phd d: that 's grad a: not easily . professor c: or is that grad a: i mean y yes we could do that . you could you can write widgets in c . and try to do it that way but i just do n't think it professor c: yeah . grad a: let 's try it with dan 's and if that is n't enough , we can do it otherwise . phd d: right . grad a: i think it is , cuz when i was playing with it , the mixed signal has it all in there . and so it 's really it 's not too bad to find places in the in the stream where things are happening . phd d: ok . grad a: so i i do n't think it 'll be bad . postdoc b: and it 's also also the case that that uh this multi - wave thing is proposed to the phd e: hmm ? postdoc b: so . dan proposed it to the transcriber central people , and it 's likely that uh so . and and they responded favorably looks as though it will be incorporated in the future version . phd d: oh . postdoc b: they said that the only reason they had n't had the multi the parallel uh stream one before was simply that they had n't had time to do it . and uh so it 's likely that this this may be entered into the ch this central @ @ . phd e: yeah . grad a: and if if professor c: they may well have not had much demand for it . postdoc b: well that 's that 's that 's true , too . professor c: yeah . postdoc b: this is a a useful thing for us . phd d: so . you mean they could they could do it and it would be fast enough if they do it ? phd e: yeah . grad a: depends on how much work they did . postdoc b: oh . no . i just mean i just mean that it 's that that his phd d: or ? phd e: oh . postdoc b: so . this one that we now have does have the status of potentially being incorporated l likely being incorporated into the central code . phd d: mm - hmm . ok . postdoc b: now , tha now , if we develop further then , y uh , i do n't grad a: i think if if if one of us sat down and coded it , so that it could be displayed fast enough i 'm sure they would be quite willing to incorporate it . postdoc b: i mean it 's i think it 's a nice feature to have it set that way . mm - hmm . grad a: but it 's not a trivial task . postdoc b: mm - hmm . yeah . phd d: ok . postdoc b: i just like the idea of it being something that 's , you know , tied back into the original , so that other people can benefit from it . grad a: yeah . postdoc b: yeah . however . i also understand that you can have widgets that are very useful for their purpose and that you do n't need to always go that w route . yeah . phd e: ok . grad a: anyway , shall we do digits ? postdoc b: yeah . professor c: yeah . let 's do digits , uh , and then we 'll turn off the mikes , and then i have one other thing to discuss . postdoc b: ok . grad a: ok . phd d: i actually have to leave . so . um . i mean i had to leave at three thirty , postdoc b: uh - oh . grad a: ok . professor c: oh . phd d: so i can well , i can wait for the digits but i ca n't stay for the discussion grad a: well , you want to go first ? or . phd d: i c i have to make a call . professor c: ok . phd d: so . postdoc b: well , should we e should we switch off the g professor c: well , we 'll talk to you about it uh grad a: do you wan na go do digits or do you wan na just skip digits ? phd d: um . no , i can do digits if if but i do n't wan na butt in , or something . grad a: then alright . you go ahead . phd d: but if there 's something on the rest of the i 'm i 'll be around just have to make call before quarter of . so . phd e: mm - hmm . phd d: so i or we can talk about it . postdoc b: ke grad a: why do n't you read the digits ? professor c: yeah , why do n't you read the digits and then you can go . phd d: ok . alright . oh , this is the new one . grad a: yeah , do n't do n't read the old one . professor c: yeah . phd d: alright . the and the time is . ok . grad a: ok postdoc b: turn it off . professor c: ok . postdoc b: but wait till he ok . grad a: and

derivatives were not discussed with jose but other possibilities were explored . first that log energy is basically compressing the distances . another is that he needs to assess the different temporal sizes . he is taking everything over two hundred milliseconds and varying that number . he is also considering moving windows , as previously discussed . he is measuring at the frame level .

what did professor c say about the possible hypothesis ? </s> professor c: starts no . no . phd d: no . that 's a different thing . professor c: there 's another i do n't know . it starts with a p or something . i forget the word for it , but it 's it 's um phd d: oh . professor c: typically when you you 're ab r starting around forty for most people , it starts to harden and then it 's just harder for the lens to shift things phd d: oh . professor c: and th the the symptom is typically that you you have to hold stuff uh uh further away to to see it . phd e: uh - huh . yeah . professor c: in fact , uh m my brother 's a gerontological psychologist and he he uh came up with an an uh a uh body age test which uh gets down to sort of only three measurements that are good enough st statistical predictors of all the rest of it . and one of them is is the distance that you have to hold it at . phd d: give someone a piece of paper and then they oh . phd e: yeah . professor c: yeah . grad a: we 're we 're live by the way , so we 've got a good intro here professor c: oh . yeah . about how old i am . grad a: yep . professor c: ok . grad a: we can edit that out if you want . phd d: oh , that 's optional . professor c: no , that 's ok . grad a: ok . so . this time the form discussion should be very short , phd d: you know . phd e: mm - hmm . grad a: right ? professor c: it also should be later . grad a: ok . professor c: because jane uh is not here yet . grad a: good point . professor c: and uh she 'll be most interested in that . uh , she 's probably least involved in the signal - processing stuff so maybe we can just just uh , i do n't think we should go though an elaborate thing , but um uh jose and i were just talking about the uh uh , speech e energy thing , phd e: the @ @ professor c: and i uh phd e: yeah . professor c: we did n't talk about the derivatives . but i think , you know , the the i if i can if you do n't mind my my speaking for you for a bit , um uh . right now , that he 's not really showing any kind of uh distinction , but uh but we discussed a couple of the possible things that uh he can look at . um . and uh one is that uh this is all in log energy and log energy is basically compressing the distances uh between things . um another is that he needs to play with the the different uh uh temporal sizes . he was he he was taking everything over two hundred milliseconds uh , and uh he 's going to vary that number and also look at moving windows , as we discussed before . um and uh and the other thing is that the yeah doing the subtracting off the mean and the variance in the uh and dividing it by the standard deviation in the log domain , may not be the right thing to do . grad a: hi jane ! phd e: hi . grad a: we just started . phd e: yeah . grad a: could you take that mike there ? phd d: are these the long term means ? like , over the whole i mean , the means of what ? grad a: thanks . professor c: uh b between between phd d: all the frames in the conversation ? professor c: no . phd d: or of things that professor c: between neither . it 's uh between the pauses uh for some segment . phd e: no . phd d: oh . professor c: and so i i his his he 's making the constraint it has to be at least two hundred milliseconds . phd d: oh . professor c: and so you take that . and then he 's he 's uh measuring at the frame level still at the frame level , of what phd d: right . professor c: and then and then just uh normalizing with that larger amount . um and but one thing he was pointing out is when he he looked at a bunch of examples in log domain , it is actually pretty hard to see the change . and you can sort of see that , because of j of just putting it on the board that if you sort of have log - x plus log - x , that 's the log of x plus the log of two phd e: yep . phd d: yeah , maybe it 's not log distributed . phd e: mmm . yeah . professor c: and it 's just , you know , it it diminishes the effect of having two of them . phd e: professor c: um . phd d: but you could do like a c d f there instead ? i mean , we do n't know that the distribution here is normally . professor c: yes , right . so so what i was suggesting to him is that phd d: so just some kind of a simple professor c: actually , a pdf . but , you know , uh but , either way . phd d: pdf professor c: yeah . yeah , eith eith uh b phd d: yeah . phd e: yeah . phd d: something like that where it 's sort of data driven . professor c: yeah , but i think also u i think a good first indicator is when the the the researcher looks at examples of the data and can not see a change in how big the the signal is , when the two speaker phd e: yeah . yeah . professor c: then , that 's a problem right there . so . i think you should at least be able , phd d: oh yeah . professor c: doing casual looking and can get the sense , `` hey , there 's something there . `` and then you can play around with the measures . and when he 's looking in the log domain he 's not really seeing it . phd d: oh yeah . phd e: yeah . professor c: so . and when he 's looking in straight energy he is , so that 's a good place to start . phd e: yeah . professor c: um . so that was that was the discussion we just had . um . the other thing actually we ca had a question for adam in this . uh , when you did the sampling ? uh over the speech segments or s or sampling over the the individual channels in order to do the e uh the amplitude equalization , did you do it over just the entire everything in the mike channels ? phd e: how professor c: you did n't try to find speech ? grad a: no , i just took over the entire s uh entire channel um sampled ten minutes randomly . professor c: right , ok . so then that means that someone who did n't speak very much would be largely represented by silence . grad a: yep . professor c: and someone who would who would be so the normalization factor probably is i i i is is grad a: yeah , this was quite quick and dirty , and it was just for listening . phd e: yeah . professor c: yeah . grad a: and for listening it seems to work really well . professor c: ok . phd e: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd e: yeah . grad a: so . professor c: yeah . but that 's grad a: but , it 's not not a good measure . professor c: right . so th phd e: yeah . professor c: ok . so yeah there there there there 's a good chance then given that different people do talk different amounts that there is there there is still a lot more to be gained from gain norm normalization with some sort phd e: yeah . yeah . mmm . grad a: yes , absolutely . professor c: if if we can figure out a way to do it . phd e: yeah . professor c: uh . but we were agreed that in addition to that { comment } uh there should be s stuff related to pitch and harmonics and so forth . phd e: yeah . professor c: so we did n't talk at all about uh the other derivatives , but uh again just just looking at uh , i think uh liz has a very good point , that in fact it would be much more graphic just to show well , actually , you do have some distributions here , uh for these cases . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor c: you have some histograms , um and uh , they do n't look very separate . phd e: yeah . professor c: uh separated . phd e: this is the the first derivate of log of frame energy uh without any kind of normalization . phd d: what professor c: yeah . yeah . yeah . phd d: log energy . sorry . phd e: these the these are the the first experiments uh with comment uh phd d: frame energy . grad a: except that it 's hard to judge this because the they 're not normalized . it 's just number of frames . phd d: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd e: yeah . grad a: but yeah , even so . phd d: w i mean , what i meant is , even if you use linear , you know , raw measures , like raw energy or whatever , professor c: `` number `` phd d: maybe we should n't make any assumptions about the distribution 's shape , and just use you know , use the distribution to model the the mean , or what y you know , rather than the mean take some professor c: yeah . but and so in in these he 's got that . phd d: yeah . professor c: he 's got some pictures . but he does n't he does n't in the he i phd e: yeah . professor c: just in derivatives , but not in the phd d: yeah . oh . professor c: but he d but he does n't does n't phd d: right . so , we do n't know what they look like on the , tsk { comment } for the raw . professor c: but he did n't h have it for the energy . he had it for the derivatives . yeah . phd d: yeah . so . i mean , there might be something there . i do n't know . professor c: yeah . phd d: huh . grad a: interesting phd e: here i i professor c: oh that yeah that 's a good q phd e: in no i i i have n't the result professor c: did did you have this sort of thing , for just the just the l r uh the the unnormalized log energy ? ok . yeah . so she she 's right . phd e: but it 's the it 's the the the following . professor c: that 's a phd d: well it might be just good to know what it looks like . professor c: yeah . that 's that 's uh cuz i 'd mentioned scatter plots before but she 's right , phd d: cuz phd e: huh ? professor c: i mean , even before you get the scatter plots , just looking at a single feature uh , looking at the distribution , is a good thing to do . phd e: yeah . catal - uh combining the different possibilities of uh the parameters . i i i i mean the the the scatter plot combining eh different n two combination . professor c: yeah , but but what she 's saying is , which is right , is le phd e: combination of two , of energy and derivate professor c: i mean , let 's start with the before we get complicated , let 's start with the most basic wh thing , which is we 're arguing that if you take energy uh if you look at the energy , that , when two people are speaking at the same time , usually there 'll be more energy than when one is right ? phd e: yeah . professor c: that 's that sort of hypothesis . phd e: that 's right . professor c: and the first way you 'd look at that , uh s she 's , you know , absolutely right , is that you would just take a look at the distribution of those two things , much as you 've plotted them here , phd e: yeah . professor c: you know , but just but just just uh do it phd e: yeah . professor c: well in this case you have three . you have the silence , and that that 's fine . phd e: yeah . professor c: so , uh with three colors or three shades or whatever , just just look at those distributions . phd e: yeah . professor c: and then , given that as a base , you can see if that gets improved , you know , or or or worsened by the looking at regular energy , looking at log energy , we were just proposing that maybe it 's you know , it 's harder to see with the log energy , um and uh also these different normalizations , does a particular choice of normalization make it better ? phd e: yeah . professor c: but i had maybe made it too complicated by suggesting early on , that you look at scatter plots because that 's looking at a distribution in two dimensions . let 's start off just in one , uh , with this feature . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor c: i think that 's probably the most basic thing , before anything very complicated . phd e: yeah . professor c: um and then we w i think we 're agreed that pitch - related things are are are going to be a a really likely candidate to help . phd d: yeah . phd e: yeah . i agree , yeah . uh - huh . professor c: um but since uh your intuition from looking at some of the data , is that when you looked at the regular energy , that it did in fact usually go up , when two people were talking , that 's eh you know , you should be able to come up with a measure which will match your intuition . phd e: ok . yeah . yeah . yeah , yeah , yeah . professor c: and she 's right , that a that having a having { comment } having this table , with a whole bunch of things , with the standard deviation , the variance and so forth , it 's it 's it 's harder to interpret than just looking at the the same kind of picture you have here . phd e: but uh - huh . yeah . but it it 's curious but uh i f i found it in the in the mixed file , in one channel that eh in several oh e eh several times eh you have an speaker talking alone with a high level of energy professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd e: eh in the middle eh a zone of overlapping with mmm less energy professor c: mm - hmm . phd e: and eh come with another speaker with high energy professor c: mm - hmm . phd e: and the overlapping zone has eh less energy . professor c: yeah . so there 'll be some cases for which phd e: because there reach very many professor c: but , the qu so so they 'll be phd d: right . professor c: this is i w want to point to visual things , but i mean they there 'll be time there 'll be overlap between the distributions , but the question is , `` if it 's a reasonable feature at all , there 's some separation . `` phd e: yeah . yeah . phd d: especially locally . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: so . locally . phd e: just locally , yeah . grad a: and i was just going to say that that right now we 're just exploring . phd d: and the other thing is i sorry . i grad a: what you would imagine eventually , is that you 'll feed all of these features into some discriminative system . phd e: yeah . professor c: yeah . grad a: and so even if if one of the features does a good job at one type of overlap , another feature might do a good job at another type of overlap . phd e: yeah . yeah . yeah . professor c: right . i mean the the reason i had suggested the scatter f p features is i used to do this a lot , when we had thirteen or fifteen or twenty features to look at . phd e: yeah , this is the professor c: um because something is a good feature uh by itself , you do n't really know how it 'll behave in combination and so it 's nice to have as many as many together at the same time as possible in uh in some reasonable visual form . there 's cool graphic things people have had sometimes to put together three or four in some funny funny way . but it 's true that you should n't do any of that unless you know that the individual ones , at least , have have some uh some hope phd e: yeah . phd d: well , especially for normalizing . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: i mean , it 's really important to pick a normalization that matches the distribution for that feature . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and it may not be the same for all the types of overlaps or the windows may not be the same . e actually , i was wondering , right now you 're taking a all of the speech , from the whole meeting , and you 're trying to find points of overlap , but we do n't really know which speaker is overlapping with which speaker , professor c: right . phd d: right ? so i mean another way would just be to take the speech from just , say , morgan , and just jane and then just their overlaps , phd e: yeah . phd d: like but by hand , by cheating , and looking at you know , if you can detect something that way , because if we ca n't do it that way , there 's no good way that we 're going to be able to do it . grad a: no prayer . phd d: that you know , there might be something helpful and cleaner about looking at just individuals and then that combination alone . phd e: yeah . phd d: plus , i think it has more elegant e professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: the m the right model will be easier to see that way . so if i do n't know , if you go through and you find adam , cuz he has a lot of overlaps and some other speaker who also has e enough speech phd e: yeah . phd d: and just sort of look at those three cases of adam and the other person and the overlaps , phd e: yeah . phd d: maybe and just look at the distributions , maybe there is a clear pattern phd e: yeah . phd d: but we just ca n't see it because there 's too many combinations of of people that can overlap . phd e: uh - huh . yeah . postdoc b: i had the same intuition last last last week . phd d: so . just seems sort of complex . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: i think it 's to start with it 's s your your idea of simplifying , starting with something that you can see eh you know without the extra layers of phd d: right . cuz if energy does n't matter there , like i do n't think this is true , but what if phd e: to study individual ? postdoc b: sorry , what ? phd d: hmm ? phd e: to study individual ? postdoc b: well , you you you do n't have to study everybody individually phd d: well , to study the simplest case to get rid of extra phd e: the the the but consider postdoc b: but just simple case and the one that has the lot of data associated with it . phd d: right . cuz what if it 's the case and i do n't think this is true grad a: that was a great overlap by the way . phd d: what if it 's the case that when two people overlap they equate their you know , there 's a conservation of energy and everybody both people talk more softly ? i do n't think this happens at all . postdoc b: or or what if what if the equipment what if the equipment adjusts somehow , phd d: or they get louder . postdoc b: there 's some equalizing in there ? phd d: yeah or professor c: uh , no we do n't have that . phd d: i mean . grad a: well , but but i think that 's what i was saying about different types of overlap . postdoc b: ok . professor c: but . postdoc b: saturation . phd d: there are there are different types , and within those types , like as jose was saying , that sounded like a backchannel overlap , meaning the kind that 's a friendly encouragement , like `` mm - hmm . `` , `` great ! `` , `` yeah ! `` phd e: yeah . phd d: and it does n't take you do n't take the floor . um , but , some of those , as you showed , i think can be discriminated by the duration of the overlap . phd e: yeah . phd d: so . it actually the s new student , don , who um adam has met , and he was at one of our meetings he 's getting his feet wet and then he 'll be starting again in mid - january . he 's interested in trying to distinguish the types of overlap . i do n't know if he 's talked with you yet . but in sort of honing in on these different types phd e: yeah . i do n't consi now i do n't consider that possibility . phd d: and so maybe phd e: this is a s a general studio of the overlapping we 're studying the i professor c: yeah . well i i i i would s actually still recommend that he do the overall thing phd d: so it might be something that we can help by categorizing some of them and then , you know , look at that . professor c: because it would be the quickest thing for him to do . he could you see , he already has all his stuff in place , phd d: yeah . professor c: he has the histogram mechanism , he has the stuff that subtracts out and all he has to do is change it uh uh from from log to plain energy and plot the histogram and look at it . and then he should go on and do the other stuff bec but but this will phd d: yeah . yeah , no . i did n't mean that that for you to do that , but i was thinking if if don and i are trying to get categories professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: and we label some data for you , and we say this is what we think is going so you do n't have to worry about it . and here 's the three types of overlaps . phd e: yeah . phd d: and we 'll we 'll do the labelling for you . phd e: yeah . professor c: hm - hmm . phd d: um . phd e: consider different class of overlap ? phd d: yeah , that we would be working on anyway . phd e: if there 's time . phd d: then maybe you can try some different things for those three cases , and see if that helps , or phd e: yeah . yeah . this is the thing i i comment with you before , that uh we have a great variation of th situation of overlapping . professor c: mm - hmm . phd e: and the behavior for energy is , uh log energy , is not uh the same all the time . phd d: mm - hmm . phd e: and professor c: but i guess i was just saying that that right now uh from the means that you gave , i do n't have any sense of whether even , you know , there are any significant number of cases for which there is distinct and i would imagine there should be some you know , there should be the distributions should be somewhat separated . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor c: uh and i i would still guess that if they are not separated at all , that there 's some there 's there 's most likely something wrong in the way that we 're measuring it . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor c: um , but um for instance , i mean i would n't expect that it was very common overall , that when two people were talking at the same time , that it would that it really was lower , phd e: yeah . professor c: although sometimes , as you say , it would . phd e: yeah . professor c: so . so . phd d: yeah , no , that was that was a jok phd e: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd d: or a sort of , a case where where you would never know that unless you actually go and look at two individuals . professor c: i mean . no . it could it probably does happen sometimes . phd e: yeah . grad a: right . professor c: yeah . yeah . grad a: mind if i turned that light off ? phd e: yeah . phd d: so . grad a: the flickering is annoying me . professor c: ok . phd d: it might the case , though , that the significant energy , just as jose was saying , comes in the non - backchannel cases . because in back most people when they 're talking do n't change their own energy when they get a backchannel , cuz they 're not really predicting the backchannel . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and sometimes it 's a nod and sometimes it 's an `` mm - hmm `` . phd e: yeah . phd d: and the `` mm - hmm `` is really usually very low energy . phd e: yeah . phd d: so maybe those do n't actually have much difference in energy . but all the other cases might . professor c: e e and and again what they what difference there was would kind of be lost in taking the log , phd d: and the backchannels are sort of easy to spot s in terms of their words or i mean , just listen to it . phd e: yeah . phd d: so . professor c: so , as well . phd d: well , it would be lost no matter what you do . phd e: but yeah . phd d: it just professor c: mmm , no , if it 's if i if it 's grad a: tone professor c: well , it wo n't be as big . phd d: i mean , even if you take the log , you can your model just has a more sensitive measures . phd e: yeah . grad a: sure , but tone might be very phd d: so . grad a: yeah , you 're `` mm - hmm `` tone is going to be very different . phd d: yeah . right . right . grad a: you could imagine doing specialized ones for different types of backchannels , if you could if you had a good model for it . your `` mm - hmm `` detector . professor c: if if you 're a i guess my point is , if you 're doing essentially a linear separation , taking the log first does in fact make it harder to separate . grad a: right . professor c: so it 's so , uh if you i i so i if there if there close to things it does phd e: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor c: it 's a nonlinear operation that does in fact change the distinction . if you 're doing a non if you 're doing some fancy thing then then yeah . and right now we 're essentially doing this linear thing by looking across here and and saying we 're going to cut it here . um and that that 's the indicator that we 're getting . but anyway , yeah , we 're not disagreeing on any of this , we should look at it more uh more finely , but uh uh i think that this often happens , you do fairly complicated things , and then you stand back from them and you realize that you have n't done something simple . so uh , if you generated something like that just for the energy and see , and then , a a a as as liz says , when they g have uh uh smaller um , more coherent groups to look at , that would be another interesting thing later . phd e: uh - huh . professor c: and then that should give us some indication between those , should give us some indication of whether there 's anything to be achieved f from energy at all . phd e: uh - huh . professor c: and then you can move on to the uh uh more pitch related stuff . phd e: mm - hmm . i i i think this is a good idea . professor c: ok . postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd e: not consider the log energy . professor c: yeah . but then the have you started looking at the pitch related stuff at all , or ? pitch related ? phd e: the ? professor c: harmonicity and so on ? phd e: i i 'm preparing the the program but i do n't i do n't begin because eh i saw your email professor c: preparing to yeah . phd e: and i agree with you it 's better to i suppose it 's better to to consider the the energy this kind of parameter bef professor c: yeah . oh , that 's not what i meant . no , no . i i i i well , we certainly should see this but i i i i think that the harm i certainly was n't saying this was better than the harmonicity and pitch related things i was just saying phd e: i i go on with the with the pitch , professor c: yeah . phd e: aha ! ok . professor c: yeah , i was just saying phd e: i i i i understood uh that eh i i had to finish by the moment with the and and concentrate my my energy in that problem . professor c: ok . ok . ok . but i think , like , all these derivatives and second derivatives and all these other very fancy things , i think i would just sort of look at the energy and then get into the harmonicity as as a suggestion . phd e: ok . i go on with the pitch . professor c: uh ok . so maybe uh since w we 're trying to uh compress the meeting , um , i know adam had some form stuff he wanted to talk about and did you have some ? postdoc b: i wanted to ask just s something on the end of this top topic . so , when i presented my results about the uh distribution of overlaps and the speakers and the profiles of the speakers , at the bottom of that i did have a proposal , phd e: uh - huh . postdoc b: and i had plan to go through with it , of of co coding the types of overlaps that people were involved in s just with reference to speaker style so , you know , with reference phd d: oh . postdoc b: and you know i said that on my in my summary , phd d: that 'd be great . postdoc b: that you know so it 's like people may have different amounts of being overlapped with or overlapping phd d: yeah , i remem right . postdoc b: but that in itself is not informative without knowing what types of overlaps they 're involved in so i was planning to do a taxonomy of types overlaps with reference to that . phd d: that would be great . postdoc b: so , but it you know it 's like it sounds like you also have uh something in that direction . phd d: that would be really great . phd e: yeah . grad a: hmm . postdoc b: is is it phd d: we have nothing you know , basically , we got his environment set up . he 's he 's a double - e { comment } you know . so . it 's mostly that , if we had to label it ourselves , we we would or we 'd have to , to get started , but if it it would be much better if you can do it . you 'd be much better { comment } at doing it also because you know , i i 'm not i do n't have a good feel for how they should be sorted out , postdoc b: interesting . phd d: and i really did n't wan na go into that if i did n't have to . so if if you 're w willing to do that or or grad a: it would be interesting , though , to talk , maybe not at the meeting , but at some other time about what are the classes . postdoc b: well maybe we can ok . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: i think that 's a research effort in and of itself , phd e: yeah . grad a: yeah , it would be interesting . phd d: because you can read the literature , but i do n't know how it 'll turn out phd e: yeah . phd d: and , you know , it 's always an interesting question . postdoc b: it seems like we also s with reference to a purpose , too , that we we 'd want to have them coded . phd e: i would think it 's interesting , yeah . yeah . phd d: that 'd be great . grad a: yep . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: ok . phd d: that 'd be really great . postdoc b: i can do that . phd d: and we 'd still have some funding for this project , phd e: uh uh phd d: like probably , if we had to hire some like an undergrad , because uh don is being covered half time on something else postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: i mean , he we 're not paying him the full ra - ship for all the time . so . um if we got it to where we wanted we needed someone to do that i do n't think there 's really enough data where where postdoc b: mm - hmm . yeah , i see this as a prototype , to use the only the the already transcribed meeting as just a prototype . phd e: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd e: i i think a a another parameter we c we we can consider is eh the duration . phd d: but grad a: mm - hmm . phd e: another e e m besides eh the the class of overlap , the duration . because is possible eh some s s um eh some classes eh has eh a type of a duration , eh , a duration very short uh when we have we have overlapping with speech . postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah , definitely . postdoc b: yeah , maybe it may be correlated . mm - hmm . phd e: is possible to have . and it 's interesting , i think , to consider the the window of normalization , normalization window . eh because eh if we have a type of , a kind of eh overlap , eh backchannel overlap , with a short duration , is possible eh to normali i i that if we normalize eh with eh eh consider only the the eh window eh by the left eh ri eh side on the right side overlapping with a a very eh oh a small window eh the if the fit of normalization is eh mmm bigger eh in that overlapping zone eh very short postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah , that 's true . the window should n't be larger than the backchannel . phd e: i i me i i understand . i mean that you have eh you have a backchannel , eh , eh you have a overlapping zone very short phd d: yeah . phd e: and you consider eh n eh all the channel to normalize this very short eh professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd e: for example `` mmm mm - hmm hmm `` eh and the energy is not eh height eh i think if you consider all the channel to normalize and the channel is mmm bigger eh eh eh compared with the with the overlapping eh duration , professor c: mm - hmm . phd e: eh the effect is mmm stronger eh that i i mean the the e effect of the normalization eh with the mean and the and the variance eh is different that if you consider only a window compared eh with the n the duration of overlapping . professor c: mm - hmm . you you want it around the overlapping part . phd e: not yeah . professor c: you want it to include something that 's not in overlapping phd e: yeah . postdoc b: mm - hmm . professor c: but but uh phd e: yeah . i i do n't know . professor c: yeah . phd e: is s if phd d: well it 's a sliding window , right ? so if you take the the measure in the center of the overlapped piece , you know , there 'd better be some something . professor c: mm - hmm . phd e: yeah . yeah . phd d: but if your window is really huge then yeah you 're right you wo n't even phd e: yeah , this is the this is the the idea , to consider only the the small window near near near the the overlapping zone . phd d: the portion of the { comment } of the backchannel wo n't wo n't effect anything . but you yeah . so . you know , you should n't be more than like you should definitely not be three times as big as your as your backchannel . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: then you 're gon na w have a wash . and hopefully it 's more like on the order of professor c: i 'm not sure that 's necessarily true . phd e: yeah ? postdoc b: it is an empirical question , it seems like . professor c: because because it because um again if you 're just compensating for the gain , phd d: yea phd e: yeah . postdoc b: yeah . professor c: you know , the fact that this this gain thing was crude , and the gain wh if someone is speaking relatively at consistent level , just to to give a an extreme example , all you 're doing is compensating for that . and then you still s and then if you look at the frame with respect to that , it still should should uh change phd d: yeah , it depends how different your normalization is , as you slide your window across . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: i mean . that 's something we do n't know . postdoc b: it 's possible to try it both ways , grad a: well , i mean we 're also talking about a couple of different things . postdoc b: is n't it ? in this small grad a: i mean , one is your analysis window and then the other is any sort of normalization that you 're doing . phd d: yeah i was talking about the n normalization window . grad a: and the and they could be quite different . professor c: right . phd d: yeah . phd e: yeah . professor c: this was sort of where where we were last week . grad a: yep . phd d: yeah . that 's true . yeah . professor c: but , anyway we we 'll have to look at some core things . postdoc b: ok . phd d: um . but that 'd be great if if you 're marking those phd e: ok . postdoc b: great . phd d: and um . postdoc b: ok . phd d: but it is definitely true that we need to have the time marks , phd e: yeah . postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: and i was assuming that will be inherited because , if you have the words and they 're roughly aligned in time via forced alignment or whatever we end up using , then you know , this student and i would be looking at the time marks postdoc b: yep , i agree . mm - hmm . coming off of the other phd d: and classifying all the frames inside those as whatever labels jane gave phd e: yeah . postdoc b: good . so , it would n't be i was n't planning to label the time marks . phd d: phd e: i can give you my transcription file , postdoc b: i was thinking that that would come from the engineering side , phd d: i do n't think you need to . phd e: no ? postdoc b: yeah . phd d: yeah . that should be linked to the words which are linked to time somehow , postdoc b: there you go . grad a: well we 're not any time soon going to get a forced alignment . phd d: right ? not now . grad a: so . phd e: yeah . grad a: um if it 's not hand - marked then we 're not going to get the times . phd d: well , it 's something that w well , we we would n't be able to do any work without a forced alignment anyway , phd e: yes phd d: so somehow if once he gets going we 're gon na hafta come up with one professor c: yes . phd d: and yeah . grad a: i mean w i guess we could do a very bad one with broadcast news . postdoc b: good . good . phd d: so whatever you would label would be attached to the words , i think . postdoc b: great ! good , good . mm - hmm . phd e: yeah . professor c: well again for the close mike stuff , we could come up take a s take the switchboard system or something , grad a: that might be good enough . yeah . professor c: and um grad a: it 'd be worth a try . it would be interesting to see what we get . professor c: just , you know , low - pass filter the speech and phd d: cuz there 's there 's a lot of work you ca n't do without that , i mean , how how would you professor c: yeah . phd d: you 'd have to go in and measure every start and stop point next to a word grad a: yep . postdoc b: it would be very inefficient . phd d: is y if you 're interested in anything to do with words . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: so . anyway so that 'd be great . postdoc b: good . ok . phd e: yeah . professor c: there 's something we should talk about later but maybe not just now . but , uh , should talk about our options as far as the uh uh transcription grad a: yep , if ibm does n't professor c: but . well , w but we 'll do that later . postdoc b: ok . good . phd d: do we hafta turn postdoc b: yeah . let 's do that later . phd d: are we supposed to keep recording here ? grad a: yeah right . postdoc b: yeah . professor c: we 'll talk about it later . postdoc b: yeah . professor c: so uh uh `` forms `` . grad a: forms next iteration of forms . professor c: you had something on forms . grad a: oops . postdoc b: oh ! oh good , ok . professor c: um . oh . postdoc b: how so it 's two pages per person ? grad a: nope . one 's a digit form , one 's a speaker form . postdoc b: oh ! grad a: so one is a one time only speaker form and the other is the digits . postdoc b: oh , i see . phd e: oh it 's the same . oh no no . is is new is ok . grad a: so do n't fill these out . postdoc b: alright . grad a: this is just the suggestion for uh what the new forms would look like . so , they incorporate the changes that we talked about . postdoc b: date and time . uh why did you switch the order of the date and time fields ? this is rather a low - level , but grad a: on which one ? postdoc b: on on the new one , time comes first and then date , but i thought grad a: oh you mean on the digit form ? postdoc b: this is this is rather a low level question , but but it used used to be date came first . grad a: uh , because the user fills out the first three fields and i fill out the rest . postdoc b: oh i see . grad a: so it was intentional . postdoc b: well , how would the how would the user know the time if they did n't know the date ? grad a: it 's an interesting observation , but it was intentional . because the date is when you actually read the digits and the time and , excuse me , the time is when you actually read the digits , but i 'm filling out the date beforehand . if you look at the form in front of you ? that you 're going to fill out when you read the digits ? you 'll see i 've already filled in the date but not the time . postdoc b: yeah . i always assumed so the time is supposed to be pretty exact , because i 've just been taking beginning time time of the meeting . phd d: yeah , me too . grad a: yeah , i 've noticed that in the forms . phd e: yeah , i yeah . grad a: the the reason i put the time in , is so that the person who 's extracting the digits , meaning me , will know where to look in the meeting , to try to find the digits . phd d: phd e: me too . oh ! postdoc b: oh dear . we 've been we 've been messing up your forms . phd e: but i am put i am putting the beginning of the meeting . grad a: i know . phd d: so you should call it , like , `` digits start time `` . or . grad a: and i have n't said anything . yep . phd e: in on there . professor c: why what what were you putting in ? postdoc b: oh , well , i was saying if we started the meeting at two thirty , phd e: yeah . postdoc b: i 'd put two thirty , and i guess d e everyone was putting two thirty , professor c: oh . phd e: yeah . grad a: no , it 's about fifty fifty . postdoc b: and i did n't realize there was `` uh oh i 'm about to read this and i should `` grad a: actually it 's about one third each . about one third of them are blank , about one third of them are when the digits are read , and about one third of them are when the meeting starts . so . phd e: oh . postdoc b: this would be a radical suggestion but grad a: i could put instructions ? nah . postdoc b: ei - either that or maybe you could maybe write down when people start reading digits on that particular session . phd e: yeah . grad a: but if i 'm not at the meeting , i ca n't do that . postdoc b: i know , ok . that 's a good point . professor c: yeah , he 's been setting stuff up and going away . so . postdoc b: i see . good point good point . professor c: for some reason he does n't want to sit through every meeting that 's grad a: yep , but that is the reason name , email and time are where they are . postdoc b: oh , ok . alright . professor c: yeah . postdoc b: i rest my grad a: and then the others are later on . professor c: uh - huh . postdoc b: ok . w phd e: and the seat is this number ? grad a: mm - hmm . postdoc b: seat and session . phd d: `` for official use only `` that 's well , he 's very professional . phd e: `` use only `` postdoc b: actually you could well that does raise another question , which is why is the `` professional use only `` line not higher ? why does n't it come in at the point of date and seat ? oh . because we 're filling in other things . grad a: what ? professor c: what ? postdoc b: well , because if y your your professional use , you 're gon na already have the date , and the s grad a: what which form are you talking about ? postdoc b: well i 'm comparing the new one with the old one . this is the digit form . phd e: oh . grad a: oh you 're talking about the digit form . professor c: digit . digit form . phd e: yeah . grad a: the digit form does n't the digit postdoc b: oh ! i was n't supposed to phd e: yeah . grad a: no , that 's alright . postdoc b: sorry . sorry . grad a: the digit form does n't have a `` for official use only `` line . it just has a line , which is what you 're supposed to read . postdoc b: that uh ok . grad a: so on the digits form , everything above the line is a fill - in form postdoc b: sorry about that . yeah . grad a: and everything below the line is digits that the user reads . postdoc b: yeah . ok . alright s but i did n't mean to derail our discussion here , so you really wanted to start with this other form . grad a: no , either way is fine i just you just started talking about something , and i did n't know which form you were referring to . postdoc b: alright yeah , i was comparing so th this is so i was looking at the change first . so it 's like we started with this and now we 've got a new version of it wi with reference to this . so the digit form , we had one already . now the f the fields are slightly different . professor c: so the main thing that the person fills out um is the name and email and time ? phd e: yeah . grad a: right . professor c: you do the rest ? phd e: ah ! grad a: yep . just as uh as i have for all the others . postdoc b: what and there 's an addition of the native language , which is a bit redundant . professor c: right . postdoc b: this one has native language and this one does too . grad a: that 's because the one , the digit form that has native language is the old form not the new form . postdoc b: oh ! thank you . thank you , thank you . there we go . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: oh , yeah . i 'll catch up here . ok , i see . professor c: `` south midland , north midland `` postdoc b: that 's the old and that 's the new . grad a: yeah this was the problem with these categories , i i picked those categories from timit . i do n't know what those are . phd d: actually , the only way i know is from working with the database and having to figure it out . phd e: what grad a: with timit , yeah ? phd e: uh - huh . grad a: so , i was gon na ask phd e: what i professor c: so is south midland like kansas ? grad a: wh w i mean . professor c: and north midland like like uh illinois , or ? phd d: well yeah . nor - um phd e: yeah . grad a: so so what accent are we speaking ? western ? professor c: by definition ? phd e: and for simple for for me ? professor c: well , phd d: probably western , yeah . phd e: is mean my native language spanish spanish ? eh the original is the center of spain and the beca grad a: yeah , i mean you could call it whatever you want . for the foreign language we could n't classify every single one . so i just left it blank and you can put whatever you want . phd e: because is different , the span - uh the spanish language from the the north of spain , of the south , of the west and the grad a: sure . phd e: but . grad a: so i 'm not sure what to do about the region field for english variety . you know , when i wrote i was writing those down , i was thinking , `` you know , these are great if you 're a linguist `` . phd e: yeah . grad a: but i do n't know how to i do n't know how to i do n't know how to categorize them . postdoc b: yeah . phd d: actually even if you t postdoc b: yeah . professor c: if you 're if e if y phd d: this was n't developed by th these regions were n't professor c: if you 're a ti or mit from nineteen eighty - five . grad a: yeah so i guess my only question was if if you were a south midland speaking region , person ? would you know it ? professor c: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . grad a: is that what you would call yourself ? phd d: i do n't know . grad a: yeah . professor c: you know , i think if you 're talking if you 're thinking in terms of places , as opposed to names different peop names people have given to different ways of talking , i would think north midwest , and south midwest would be more common than saying midland , right , i mean , i i went to s phd d: yeah . now the usage maybe we can give them a li like a little map ? with the regions and they just no , i 'm serious . postdoc b: no , that 's not bad . yeah . phd d: because it takes less time , and it 's sort of cute phd e: i at this in that side in that side of the the paper . phd d: there 's no figure . professor c: well . phd d: well just a little you know , it does n't have all the detail , but you sort of professor c: but what if you moved five times and and uh postdoc b: well , i was thinking you could have ma multiple ones and then the amount of time phd d: no , but you 're categorized . that 's the same postdoc b: so , roughly . so . you could say , you know `` ten years on the east coast , five years on the west coast `` or something or other . grad a: well , we i think we do n't want to get that level of detail at this form . i think that 's alright if we want to follow up . but . professor c: i guess we do n't really know . phd d: i mean i as i said , i do n't think there 's a huge benefit to this region thing . it it gets the problem is that for some things it 's really clear and usually listening to { comment } it you can tell right away if it 's a new york or boston accent , but new york and boston are two well , i guess they have the nyc , but new england has a bunch of very different dialects and postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: and so does um s so do other places . grad a: yeah , so i picked these regions cuz we had talked about timit , and those are right from timit . phd d: right . and so these would be satisfying like a speech research community if we released the database , grad a: so . phd d: but as to whether subjects know where they 're from , i 'm not sure because um i know that they had to fill this out for switchboard . this is i almost exactly the same as switchboard regions postdoc b: oh . ok . phd d: or very close . yeah . um and i do n't know how they filled that out . but th if midland yeah , midland is the one that 's difficult i guess . postdoc b: i think a lot of people yeah . phd d: also northwest you 've got oreg - washington and oregon now which uh y people do n't know if it 's western or northern . grad a: yeah , i certainly do n't . i mean , i was saying i do n't even know what i speak . phd d: it 's like northwest grad a: am i speaking am i speaking western ? professor c: oh , what is northern ? well and what and what 's northern ? phd d: i think originally it was north northwest grad a: northwest ? phd d: but phd e: yeah . grad a: yeah , so this is a real problem . i do n't know what to do about it . phd d: yeah . postdoc b: i would n't know how to characterize mine either . and and so i would think i would say , i 've i 've got a mix of california and ohio . grad a: i c i think at the first level , for example , we speak the same . phd d: i do n't know . grad a: our our dialects or whatever you region are the same . postdoc b: uh - huh . grad a: but i do n't know what it is . so . phd d: well , you have a like techno - speak accent i think . grad a: a techno - speak accent ? phd d: yeah , you know ? phd e: a techno grad a: a a geek region ? phd d: well it 's i mean i you can sort of identify postdoc b: geek region . phd d: it f it 's it 's not not that that 's phd e: is different . is different . phd d: but but maybe that maybe we could leave this and see what people see what people choose and then um let them just fill in if they do n't i mean i do n't know what else we can do , cuz that 's north midland . postdoc b: i 'm wondering about a question like , `` where are you from mostly ? `` phd e: yeah . professor c: but i i 'm s i 'm now that you mentioned it though , i am really am confused by `` northern `` . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: i agree . i agree . professor c: i really am . postdoc b: i agree . professor c: i mean , if if you 're in new england , that 's north . phd e: yeah . professor c: if you 're i if you 're postdoc b: scandinavian , the minnesota area 's north . professor c: uh yeah . that 's but that 's also north midland , phd e: yeah . postdoc b: oh , @ @ . ok . professor c: right ? postdoc b: professor c: and and and oregon and and oregon and washington are are western , but they 're also northern . phd d: yeah . of course , that 's very different from , like , michigan , or phd e: mmm . postdoc b: mm - hmm . professor c: uh , idaho ? phd d: well there are hardly any subjects from idaho . professor c: montana ? grad a: no problem . postdoc b: just rule them out . phd d: there 's only a few people in idaho . grad a: there are hardly any subjects from `` beep `` phd e: yeah . phd d: sorry . professor c: maybe maybe we maybe we should put a little map and say `` put an x on where you 're from `` , phd d: no , that 's phd e: and is in those grad a: yeah really . phd d: we could ask where they 're from . phd e: and if you put postdoc b: it 'd be pretty simple , yeah . phd d: yeah . but - we went back to that . phd e: yeah . if you put eh the state ? grad a: well well we sort of postdoc b: where are you from mostly ? phd d: we we went we went around this and then a lot of people ended up saying that it phd e: uh - huh . mm - hmm . phd d: you know . grad a: well , i like the idea of asking `` what variety of english do you speak `` as opposed to where you 're from because th if we start asking where we 're from , again you have to start saying , `` well , is that the language you speak or is that just where you 're from ? `` phd e: yeah . postdoc b: hmm ? phd d: right . right . phd e: yeah . professor c: let 's mm - hmm . phd d: i mean it gives us good information on where they 're from , but that does n't { comment } tell us anything grad a: and professor c: we could always ask them if they 're from phd d: well , enough about their grad a: i mean . so so i would say germany phd d: like grad a: you know am i speaking with german accent postdoc b: oh . grad a: i do n't think so . postdoc b: well , see , i 'm thinking `` where are you from mostly `` phd d: right . grad a: oh , ok yeah . postdoc b: because , you know , then you have some some kind of subjective amount of time factored into it . phd e: yeah . yeah . grad a: yep . yeah , i guess i could try to put squeeze in a little map . phd e: yeah . grad a: i mean there 's not a lot of r of room professor c: i 'd say , uh , `` boston , new york city , the south and regular `` . postdoc b: well phd d: oh , i do n't know . grad a: i think of those , northern is the only one that i do n't even know what they 're meaning . postdoc b: yeah . yeah . phd e: and and um and usually here people here know what is their kind of mmm lang english language ? professor c: that 's a joke . that 's phd d: so let 's make it up . s i mean , who cares . right ? we can make up our own so we can say `` northwest `` , `` rest of west `` or something . you know . `` west `` and i mean . grad a: ye i do n't think the northwest people speak any differently than i do . phd d: it does n't even yeah , exactly . that 's not really a region . postdoc b: i professor c: `` do you come from the louisiana purchase ? `` phd d: so we could take out `` north `` `` northern `` . grad a: that that 's exactly what we 're arguing about . phd e: eh here is easy for people to know ? phd d: that 's yeah , w it 's in it 's it 's harder in america anywhere else , basically . grad a: we do n't know . phd e: because you have grad a: i mean some of them are very obvious . if you if you talk to someone speaking with southern drawl , you know . phd e: n m yeah . postdoc b: yeah , or boston . grad a: or boston , yeah . postdoc b: i ca n't do it , but phd e: or boston ? professor c: yeah . phd d: and those people , if you ask them to self - identify their accent they know . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: yeah , they do . phd d: they know very well . postdoc b: yeah i agree i agree . i agree . phd d: they know they do n't speak the same as the grad a: but is boston new england ? postdoc b: and they 're proud of it . phd d: day o postdoc b: yeah . phd d: yeah , exactly . postdoc b: it 's identity thing . phd d: and they 're glad to tell you . phd e: style . phd d: well . depends who you ask , i suppose . grad a: w i guess that 's the problem with these categories . phd e: phd d: but that 's why they have new york city but postdoc b: well , we ca well , why ca n't we just say characterize something like char characterize your accent professor c: well , boston 's @ @ , too . phd d: or `` characterize your accent if you can . `` postdoc b: and and so i would say , `` i do n't know `` . phd d: yeah . right , which probably means you have a very postdoc b: but someone from boston with a really strong coloration would know . and so would an r - less maine or something , phd d: and that 's actually good . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: yeah . phd d: i was i was thinking of something along that line professor c: how postdoc b: good . phd d: because if you do n't know , then , you know , ruling out the fact that you 're totally inept or something , postdoc b: hmm . phd d: if somebody does n't know , it probably means their accent is n't very strong compared to the sort of midwest standard . professor c: well , i mean , it was n't that long ago that we had somebody here who was from texas who was absolutely sure that he did n't have any accent left . postdoc b: hmm ? professor c: and and had he had a pretty noticeable drawl . grad a: ok , so . i propose , take out northern add , do n't know . postdoc b: oh . yeah . i i would say more more sweepingly , `` how would you characterize your accent ? `` phd e: yeah . grad a: so you want to change the instructions also not just say region ? phd d: w postdoc b: well , i think this discussion has made me think that 's s something to consider . grad a: i do n't know if i if i read this form , i think they 're going to ask { comment } it they 're going to answer the same way if you say , `` what 's variety of english do you speak ? region . `` as if you say `` what variety of region region { comment } do you speak ? please characterize your accent ? `` they 're going to answer the same way . postdoc b: i guess well , i was not sure that i phd e: mmm . postdoc b: so . i was suggesting not having the options , just having them grad a: oh , i see . phd e: huh . grad a: well what we talked about with that is is so that they would understand the granularity . postdoc b: yes , but if , as liz is suggesting , people who have strong accents know that they do grad a: i mean that 's what i had before , and you told me to list the regions to list them . postdoc b: and are well , i know . professor c: right . phd d: each each one has pros and cons grad a: so . professor c: right . postdoc b: that 's true . professor c: right . phd d: i mean we we professor c: yeah last week last week i was sort of r arguing for having it wide open , but then everybody said `` oh , no , but then it will be hard to interpret because some people will say cincinnati and some will say ohio `` . grad a: i mean i had it wide open last week and and you said timit . professor c: and . postdoc b: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd d: what if we put in both ? grad a: that 's what the `` other `` is for . phd d: and would people no , i mean what if we put in both ways of asking them ? so . one is region and the another one is `` if you had to characterize yourself your accent , what would you say ? `` grad a: wo n't they answer the same thing ? phd d: well they might only answer only one of the questions but if postdoc b: yeah that 's fine . phd d: you know . postdoc b: they might say `` other `` for region because they do n't know what category to use phd d: actually postdoc b: but they might have something phd d: right . postdoc b: because it is easier to have it open ended . phd d: it just and we we might learn from what they say , as to which one 's a better { comment } way to ask it . professor c: w this is just a small thing phd d: but i cuz i really do n't know . professor c: but um it says `` variety `` and then it gives things that e have american as one of the choices . but then it says `` region `` , but region actually just applies to uh , us , grad a: right . professor c: right ? grad a: i mean that 's why i put the `` other `` in . postdoc b: well , we thought about it . professor c: ah , ok . postdoc b: yeah , ok . we just we sort of thought , `` yes , `` y y i mean professor c: s postdoc b: at the last meeting , my recollection was that we felt people would have uh less that that there are so many types and varieties of these other languages and we are not going to have that many subjects from these different language groups grad a: yep . postdoc b: and that it 's a huge waste of of space . professor c: ok . grad a: so i mean , i i mean the way i had it last time was region was blank , postdoc b: that 's what i thought . grad a: it just said region colon . postdoc b: yeah . grad a: and and i think that that 's the best way to do it , postdoc b: yeah . grad a: because because of the problems we 're talking about but what we said last week , was no , put in a list , so i put in a list . so should we go back to phd d: maybe we can make the list a little smaller . grad a: well , certainly dropping `` northern `` i think is right , because none of us know what that is . phd d: cuz , i mean and keeping `` other `` , and then maybe this north midland , we call it `` north midwest `` . south midwest , or just professor c: yes i i i think so . yeah . phd d: south midwest . does that make sense ? phd e: south midwest ? phd d: that would help me professor c: u unless you 're from midland , kansas . phd d: yeah . cuz midland professor c: but . yeah . phd d: i do n't know where midland is professor c: there 's a or midland midland grad a: is `` midwest `` one word ? professor c: is it midland midland midland , texas or midland , kansas ? i forget . phd d: y yeah , one w professor c: but there 's a town . in in there . phd d: oh . professor c: i forget what it is @ @ . postdoc b: i do n't think that 's what they mean . phd d: but , professor c: yeah . phd d: yeah . so . kansas would be south midland . right ? professor c: y yeah . phd d: and and would n't yeah . professor c: and colorado , right across the border , would be north midland . phd d: so , th i 'm from kansas , actually . phd e: southern midland . phd d: yeah . grad a: and uh phd d: colora oh , right . and then , the the dropping north , so it would be western . it 's just one big shebang , where , of course , you have huge variation in dialects , grad a: but that 's true of new england too . professor c: but you do in the others , too . so . phd d: but { comment } but so do you grad a: so . i mean only one phd d: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd d: yeah . yeah . grad a: well , i should n't say that . i have no clue . i was going to say the only one that does n't have a huge variety is new york city . but i have no idea whether it does or not . postdoc b: it does seem i mean . i i would think that these categories would be more w would be easier for an an analyst to put in rather than the subject himself . professor c: u grad a: i think that that was what happened with timit , was that it was an analyst . postdoc b: ok . professor c: wait a minute . where does where does d w where where 's where does uh new new york west of west of uh new york city and pennsylvania uh and uh phd d: yeah , i do n't know how it came from . postdoc b: ok . grad a: new england phd d: so . that 's new england i think . professor c: n no , it 's not . phd d: yeah . grad a: oh , no . postdoc b: i sort of thought they were part of the one of the midlands . professor c: oh no . no , no . no . pennsylvania is not grad a: `` other `` , it goes under `` other `` , definitely under `` other `` . phd d: well , you know , pennsylvania has a pretty strong dialect and it 's totally different than professor c: pennsylvania yeah . pennsylvania is not new england . and uh new jersey is not new england and maryland is not new england and none of those are the south . grad a: ok . so . another suggestion . rather than have circle fill in forms , say `` region , open paren , e g southern comma western comma close paren colon . `` postdoc b: yeah . ok . phd d: ok ! postdoc b: fine by me , fine by me . professor c: that 's good . i like that . phd d: sure ! phd e: yeah . postdoc b: yeah . professor c: we 're all sufficiently tired of this that we 're agreeing with you . phd d: let 's just and we 'll see what we get . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: be easier on the subjects . i think that 's fine . no . i think professor c: so . postdoc b: i like that . i like that . professor c: you like it ? postdoc b: yeah , i do . professor c: ok . grad a: actually , maybe we do one non - english one as well . professor c: good . grad a: southern , cockney ? phd d: yeah , and phd e: yeah . grad a: is that a real accent ? postdoc b: sure , yeah ! grad a: how do you spell it ? phd e: yeah . postdoc b: i think that 's fine . professor c: cockney ? grad a: n e professor c: co yeah . phd d: you could say liverpool . professor c: liverpuddlian . postdoc b: yeah . alright . phd d: actually , liverpool does n't l yeah . it 's i 'm s i ha postdoc b: well . well . i mean , pure grad a: ok , we 'll do it that way . actually , i like that a lot . because that get 's at both of the things we were trying to do , professor c: ok . grad a: the granularity , and the person can just self - assess and we do n't have to argue about what these regions are . postdoc b: that 's right . and it 's easy on the subjects . professor c: ok . phd e: yeah . grad a: yep . postdoc b: now i have one suggestion on the next section . phd e: mm - hmm . grad a: mm - hmm . postdoc b: so you have native language , you have region , and then you have time spent in english speaking country . now , i wonder if it might be useful to have another open field saying `` which one parenthesis s { comment } paren closed parenthesis `` . cuz if they spent time in in britain and america professor c: yes . postdoc b: it does n't have to be ex all at all exact , just in the same open field format that you have . grad a: yep , just which one . i think that 's fine . postdoc b: mm - hmm . with a with an s phd e: mm - hmm . postdoc b: `` which one sss , { comment } optional s . professor c: ok . phd e: postdoc b: yeah . professor c: we uh we done ? grad a: yep . postdoc b: yeah , that 's good . professor c: ok . um s e any any other uh open mike topics or should we go right to the digits ? grad a: um , did you guys get my email on the multitrans ? that ok . postdoc b: is n't that wonderful ! yeah . grad a: yeah . so . so . i i have a version also which actually displays all the channels . postdoc b: excellent ! thank you ! phd d: it 's really great . grad a: but it 's hideously slow . postdoc b: so you this is n dan 's patches , dan ellis 's patches . grad a: the what the ones i applied , that you can actually do are dan 's , because it does n't slow it down . phd d: m postdoc b: fantastic ! grad a: just uses a lot of memory . phd d: so when you say `` slow `` , does that mean to grad a: no , the the one that 's installed is fine . it 's not slow at all . i wrote another version . which , instead of having the one pane with the one view , it has multiple panes with the views . phd e: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . grad a: but the problem with it is the drawing of those waveforms is so slow that every time you do anything it just crawls . postdoc b: mm - hmm . grad a: it 's really bad . phd d: it 's so , it it 's the redrawing of the w postdoc b: that 's a consideration . grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: oh uh - huh , w as you move . grad a: as you play , as you move , as you scroll . just about anything , and it it was so slow it was not usable . so that 's why i did n't install it and did n't pursue it . postdoc b: and this 'll be a hav having the multiwave will be a big help cuz in terms of like disentangling overlaps and things , that 'll be a big help . phd d: oh yeah . grad a: so . i think that the one dan has is usable enough . phd d: yeah . grad a: it does n't display the others . it displays just the mixed signal . postdoc b: mm - hmm . grad a: but you can listen to any of them . postdoc b: that 's excellent . he also has version control which is another nice phd e: yeah . postdoc b: e so you e the patches that you grad a: no , he suggested that , but he did n't it 's not installed . postdoc b: oh , i thought it was in one of those patches . grad a: no . no . postdoc b: oh ok . well . alright . phd d: so is there any hope for actually displaying the wave form ? grad a: um , not if we 're going to use tcl - tk at least not if we 're going to use snack . phd d: ok . grad a: i mean you would have to do something ourselves . postdoc b: well , or use the one that crawls . phd d: ok . well , i 'm i probably would be trying to use the { comment } whatever 's there . and it 's useful to have the grad a: why do n't we we see how dan 's works and if it if we really need the display phd d: yeah . i mean . i wonder i 'm just wondering if we can display things other than the wave form . so . suppose we have a feature a feature stream . and it 's just , you know , a a uni - dimensional feature , varying in time . phd e: yeah . phd d: and we want to plot that , instead of the whole wave form . grad a: i mean . phd d: that might be faster . phd e: yeah . phd d: right ? grad a: we we could do that but that would mean changing the code . phd d: so . phd e: yeah . grad a: i mean this is n't a program we wrote . professor c: yeah . grad a: this is a program that we got from someone else , and we 've done patches on . phd d: ok . postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: ok . well , i 'll talk to you about it and we can see grad a: so . professor c: cou - i e i mean , y phd e: yeah . grad a: yeah . phd d: but it 's definitely great to have the other one . professor c: if there was some is there some way to have someone write patches in something faster and and link it in , or something ? phd d: that 's grad a: not easily . professor c: or is that grad a: i mean y yes we could do that . you could you can write widgets in c . and try to do it that way but i just do n't think it professor c: yeah . grad a: let 's try it with dan 's and if that is n't enough , we can do it otherwise . phd d: right . grad a: i think it is , cuz when i was playing with it , the mixed signal has it all in there . and so it 's really it 's not too bad to find places in the in the stream where things are happening . phd d: ok . grad a: so i i do n't think it 'll be bad . postdoc b: and it 's also also the case that that uh this multi - wave thing is proposed to the phd e: hmm ? postdoc b: so . dan proposed it to the transcriber central people , and it 's likely that uh so . and and they responded favorably looks as though it will be incorporated in the future version . phd d: oh . postdoc b: they said that the only reason they had n't had the multi the parallel uh stream one before was simply that they had n't had time to do it . and uh so it 's likely that this this may be entered into the ch this central @ @ . phd e: yeah . grad a: and if if professor c: they may well have not had much demand for it . postdoc b: well that 's that 's that 's true , too . professor c: yeah . postdoc b: this is a a useful thing for us . phd d: so . you mean they could they could do it and it would be fast enough if they do it ? phd e: yeah . grad a: depends on how much work they did . postdoc b: oh . no . i just mean i just mean that it 's that that his phd d: or ? phd e: oh . postdoc b: so . this one that we now have does have the status of potentially being incorporated l likely being incorporated into the central code . phd d: mm - hmm . ok . postdoc b: now , tha now , if we develop further then , y uh , i do n't grad a: i think if if if one of us sat down and coded it , so that it could be displayed fast enough i 'm sure they would be quite willing to incorporate it . postdoc b: i mean it 's i think it 's a nice feature to have it set that way . mm - hmm . grad a: but it 's not a trivial task . postdoc b: mm - hmm . yeah . phd d: ok . postdoc b: i just like the idea of it being something that 's , you know , tied back into the original , so that other people can benefit from it . grad a: yeah . postdoc b: yeah . however . i also understand that you can have widgets that are very useful for their purpose and that you do n't need to always go that w route . yeah . phd e: ok . grad a: anyway , shall we do digits ? postdoc b: yeah . professor c: yeah . let 's do digits , uh , and then we 'll turn off the mikes , and then i have one other thing to discuss . postdoc b: ok . grad a: ok . phd d: i actually have to leave . so . um . i mean i had to leave at three thirty , postdoc b: uh - oh . grad a: ok . professor c: oh . phd d: so i can well , i can wait for the digits but i ca n't stay for the discussion grad a: well , you want to go first ? or . phd d: i c i have to make a call . professor c: ok . phd d: so . postdoc b: well , should we e should we switch off the g professor c: well , we 'll talk to you about it uh grad a: do you wan na go do digits or do you wan na just skip digits ? phd d: um . no , i can do digits if if but i do n't wan na butt in , or something . grad a: then alright . you go ahead . phd d: but if there 's something on the rest of the i 'm i 'll be around just have to make call before quarter of . so . phd e: mm - hmm . phd d: so i or we can talk about it . postdoc b: ke grad a: why do n't you read the digits ? professor c: yeah , why do n't you read the digits and then you can go . phd d: ok . alright . oh , this is the new one . grad a: yeah , do n't do n't read the old one . professor c: yeah . phd d: alright . the and the time is . ok . grad a: ok postdoc b: turn it off . professor c: ok . postdoc b: but wait till he ok . grad a: and

professor c said the basic hypothesis and starting point is if you examine the energy when two people are speaking at the same time , usually { there 'll be more energy than when one is . coming up with a measure which will match this intuition is the next step . these energy features should be fed into a discriminative system . it is important to pick a normalization that matches the distribution for that feature .

what was to be included in the new form arrangement ? </s> professor c: starts no . no . phd d: no . that 's a different thing . professor c: there 's another i do n't know . it starts with a p or something . i forget the word for it , but it 's it 's um phd d: oh . professor c: typically when you you 're ab r starting around forty for most people , it starts to harden and then it 's just harder for the lens to shift things phd d: oh . professor c: and th the the symptom is typically that you you have to hold stuff uh uh further away to to see it . phd e: uh - huh . yeah . professor c: in fact , uh m my brother 's a gerontological psychologist and he he uh came up with an an uh a uh body age test which uh gets down to sort of only three measurements that are good enough st statistical predictors of all the rest of it . and one of them is is the distance that you have to hold it at . phd d: give someone a piece of paper and then they oh . phd e: yeah . professor c: yeah . grad a: we 're we 're live by the way , so we 've got a good intro here professor c: oh . yeah . about how old i am . grad a: yep . professor c: ok . grad a: we can edit that out if you want . phd d: oh , that 's optional . professor c: no , that 's ok . grad a: ok . so . this time the form discussion should be very short , phd d: you know . phd e: mm - hmm . grad a: right ? professor c: it also should be later . grad a: ok . professor c: because jane uh is not here yet . grad a: good point . professor c: and uh she 'll be most interested in that . uh , she 's probably least involved in the signal - processing stuff so maybe we can just just uh , i do n't think we should go though an elaborate thing , but um uh jose and i were just talking about the uh uh , speech e energy thing , phd e: the @ @ professor c: and i uh phd e: yeah . professor c: we did n't talk about the derivatives . but i think , you know , the the i if i can if you do n't mind my my speaking for you for a bit , um uh . right now , that he 's not really showing any kind of uh distinction , but uh but we discussed a couple of the possible things that uh he can look at . um . and uh one is that uh this is all in log energy and log energy is basically compressing the distances uh between things . um another is that he needs to play with the the different uh uh temporal sizes . he was he he was taking everything over two hundred milliseconds uh , and uh he 's going to vary that number and also look at moving windows , as we discussed before . um and uh and the other thing is that the yeah doing the subtracting off the mean and the variance in the uh and dividing it by the standard deviation in the log domain , may not be the right thing to do . grad a: hi jane ! phd e: hi . grad a: we just started . phd e: yeah . grad a: could you take that mike there ? phd d: are these the long term means ? like , over the whole i mean , the means of what ? grad a: thanks . professor c: uh b between between phd d: all the frames in the conversation ? professor c: no . phd d: or of things that professor c: between neither . it 's uh between the pauses uh for some segment . phd e: no . phd d: oh . professor c: and so i i his his he 's making the constraint it has to be at least two hundred milliseconds . phd d: oh . professor c: and so you take that . and then he 's he 's uh measuring at the frame level still at the frame level , of what phd d: right . professor c: and then and then just uh normalizing with that larger amount . um and but one thing he was pointing out is when he he looked at a bunch of examples in log domain , it is actually pretty hard to see the change . and you can sort of see that , because of j of just putting it on the board that if you sort of have log - x plus log - x , that 's the log of x plus the log of two phd e: yep . phd d: yeah , maybe it 's not log distributed . phd e: mmm . yeah . professor c: and it 's just , you know , it it diminishes the effect of having two of them . phd e: professor c: um . phd d: but you could do like a c d f there instead ? i mean , we do n't know that the distribution here is normally . professor c: yes , right . so so what i was suggesting to him is that phd d: so just some kind of a simple professor c: actually , a pdf . but , you know , uh but , either way . phd d: pdf professor c: yeah . yeah , eith eith uh b phd d: yeah . phd e: yeah . phd d: something like that where it 's sort of data driven . professor c: yeah , but i think also u i think a good first indicator is when the the the researcher looks at examples of the data and can not see a change in how big the the signal is , when the two speaker phd e: yeah . yeah . professor c: then , that 's a problem right there . so . i think you should at least be able , phd d: oh yeah . professor c: doing casual looking and can get the sense , `` hey , there 's something there . `` and then you can play around with the measures . and when he 's looking in the log domain he 's not really seeing it . phd d: oh yeah . phd e: yeah . professor c: so . and when he 's looking in straight energy he is , so that 's a good place to start . phd e: yeah . professor c: um . so that was that was the discussion we just had . um . the other thing actually we ca had a question for adam in this . uh , when you did the sampling ? uh over the speech segments or s or sampling over the the individual channels in order to do the e uh the amplitude equalization , did you do it over just the entire everything in the mike channels ? phd e: how professor c: you did n't try to find speech ? grad a: no , i just took over the entire s uh entire channel um sampled ten minutes randomly . professor c: right , ok . so then that means that someone who did n't speak very much would be largely represented by silence . grad a: yep . professor c: and someone who would who would be so the normalization factor probably is i i i is is grad a: yeah , this was quite quick and dirty , and it was just for listening . phd e: yeah . professor c: yeah . grad a: and for listening it seems to work really well . professor c: ok . phd e: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd e: yeah . grad a: so . professor c: yeah . but that 's grad a: but , it 's not not a good measure . professor c: right . so th phd e: yeah . professor c: ok . so yeah there there there there 's a good chance then given that different people do talk different amounts that there is there there is still a lot more to be gained from gain norm normalization with some sort phd e: yeah . yeah . mmm . grad a: yes , absolutely . professor c: if if we can figure out a way to do it . phd e: yeah . professor c: uh . but we were agreed that in addition to that { comment } uh there should be s stuff related to pitch and harmonics and so forth . phd e: yeah . professor c: so we did n't talk at all about uh the other derivatives , but uh again just just looking at uh , i think uh liz has a very good point , that in fact it would be much more graphic just to show well , actually , you do have some distributions here , uh for these cases . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor c: you have some histograms , um and uh , they do n't look very separate . phd e: yeah . professor c: uh separated . phd e: this is the the first derivate of log of frame energy uh without any kind of normalization . phd d: what professor c: yeah . yeah . yeah . phd d: log energy . sorry . phd e: these the these are the the first experiments uh with comment uh phd d: frame energy . grad a: except that it 's hard to judge this because the they 're not normalized . it 's just number of frames . phd d: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd e: yeah . grad a: but yeah , even so . phd d: w i mean , what i meant is , even if you use linear , you know , raw measures , like raw energy or whatever , professor c: `` number `` phd d: maybe we should n't make any assumptions about the distribution 's shape , and just use you know , use the distribution to model the the mean , or what y you know , rather than the mean take some professor c: yeah . but and so in in these he 's got that . phd d: yeah . professor c: he 's got some pictures . but he does n't he does n't in the he i phd e: yeah . professor c: just in derivatives , but not in the phd d: yeah . oh . professor c: but he d but he does n't does n't phd d: right . so , we do n't know what they look like on the , tsk { comment } for the raw . professor c: but he did n't h have it for the energy . he had it for the derivatives . yeah . phd d: yeah . so . i mean , there might be something there . i do n't know . professor c: yeah . phd d: huh . grad a: interesting phd e: here i i professor c: oh that yeah that 's a good q phd e: in no i i i have n't the result professor c: did did you have this sort of thing , for just the just the l r uh the the unnormalized log energy ? ok . yeah . so she she 's right . phd e: but it 's the it 's the the the following . professor c: that 's a phd d: well it might be just good to know what it looks like . professor c: yeah . that 's that 's uh cuz i 'd mentioned scatter plots before but she 's right , phd d: cuz phd e: huh ? professor c: i mean , even before you get the scatter plots , just looking at a single feature uh , looking at the distribution , is a good thing to do . phd e: yeah . catal - uh combining the different possibilities of uh the parameters . i i i i mean the the the scatter plot combining eh different n two combination . professor c: yeah , but but what she 's saying is , which is right , is le phd e: combination of two , of energy and derivate professor c: i mean , let 's start with the before we get complicated , let 's start with the most basic wh thing , which is we 're arguing that if you take energy uh if you look at the energy , that , when two people are speaking at the same time , usually there 'll be more energy than when one is right ? phd e: yeah . professor c: that 's that sort of hypothesis . phd e: that 's right . professor c: and the first way you 'd look at that , uh s she 's , you know , absolutely right , is that you would just take a look at the distribution of those two things , much as you 've plotted them here , phd e: yeah . professor c: you know , but just but just just uh do it phd e: yeah . professor c: well in this case you have three . you have the silence , and that that 's fine . phd e: yeah . professor c: so , uh with three colors or three shades or whatever , just just look at those distributions . phd e: yeah . professor c: and then , given that as a base , you can see if that gets improved , you know , or or or worsened by the looking at regular energy , looking at log energy , we were just proposing that maybe it 's you know , it 's harder to see with the log energy , um and uh also these different normalizations , does a particular choice of normalization make it better ? phd e: yeah . professor c: but i had maybe made it too complicated by suggesting early on , that you look at scatter plots because that 's looking at a distribution in two dimensions . let 's start off just in one , uh , with this feature . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor c: i think that 's probably the most basic thing , before anything very complicated . phd e: yeah . professor c: um and then we w i think we 're agreed that pitch - related things are are are going to be a a really likely candidate to help . phd d: yeah . phd e: yeah . i agree , yeah . uh - huh . professor c: um but since uh your intuition from looking at some of the data , is that when you looked at the regular energy , that it did in fact usually go up , when two people were talking , that 's eh you know , you should be able to come up with a measure which will match your intuition . phd e: ok . yeah . yeah . yeah , yeah , yeah . professor c: and she 's right , that a that having a having { comment } having this table , with a whole bunch of things , with the standard deviation , the variance and so forth , it 's it 's it 's harder to interpret than just looking at the the same kind of picture you have here . phd e: but uh - huh . yeah . but it it 's curious but uh i f i found it in the in the mixed file , in one channel that eh in several oh e eh several times eh you have an speaker talking alone with a high level of energy professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd e: eh in the middle eh a zone of overlapping with mmm less energy professor c: mm - hmm . phd e: and eh come with another speaker with high energy professor c: mm - hmm . phd e: and the overlapping zone has eh less energy . professor c: yeah . so there 'll be some cases for which phd e: because there reach very many professor c: but , the qu so so they 'll be phd d: right . professor c: this is i w want to point to visual things , but i mean they there 'll be time there 'll be overlap between the distributions , but the question is , `` if it 's a reasonable feature at all , there 's some separation . `` phd e: yeah . yeah . phd d: especially locally . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: so . locally . phd e: just locally , yeah . grad a: and i was just going to say that that right now we 're just exploring . phd d: and the other thing is i sorry . i grad a: what you would imagine eventually , is that you 'll feed all of these features into some discriminative system . phd e: yeah . professor c: yeah . grad a: and so even if if one of the features does a good job at one type of overlap , another feature might do a good job at another type of overlap . phd e: yeah . yeah . yeah . professor c: right . i mean the the reason i had suggested the scatter f p features is i used to do this a lot , when we had thirteen or fifteen or twenty features to look at . phd e: yeah , this is the professor c: um because something is a good feature uh by itself , you do n't really know how it 'll behave in combination and so it 's nice to have as many as many together at the same time as possible in uh in some reasonable visual form . there 's cool graphic things people have had sometimes to put together three or four in some funny funny way . but it 's true that you should n't do any of that unless you know that the individual ones , at least , have have some uh some hope phd e: yeah . phd d: well , especially for normalizing . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: i mean , it 's really important to pick a normalization that matches the distribution for that feature . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and it may not be the same for all the types of overlaps or the windows may not be the same . e actually , i was wondering , right now you 're taking a all of the speech , from the whole meeting , and you 're trying to find points of overlap , but we do n't really know which speaker is overlapping with which speaker , professor c: right . phd d: right ? so i mean another way would just be to take the speech from just , say , morgan , and just jane and then just their overlaps , phd e: yeah . phd d: like but by hand , by cheating , and looking at you know , if you can detect something that way , because if we ca n't do it that way , there 's no good way that we 're going to be able to do it . grad a: no prayer . phd d: that you know , there might be something helpful and cleaner about looking at just individuals and then that combination alone . phd e: yeah . phd d: plus , i think it has more elegant e professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: the m the right model will be easier to see that way . so if i do n't know , if you go through and you find adam , cuz he has a lot of overlaps and some other speaker who also has e enough speech phd e: yeah . phd d: and just sort of look at those three cases of adam and the other person and the overlaps , phd e: yeah . phd d: maybe and just look at the distributions , maybe there is a clear pattern phd e: yeah . phd d: but we just ca n't see it because there 's too many combinations of of people that can overlap . phd e: uh - huh . yeah . postdoc b: i had the same intuition last last last week . phd d: so . just seems sort of complex . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: i think it 's to start with it 's s your your idea of simplifying , starting with something that you can see eh you know without the extra layers of phd d: right . cuz if energy does n't matter there , like i do n't think this is true , but what if phd e: to study individual ? postdoc b: sorry , what ? phd d: hmm ? phd e: to study individual ? postdoc b: well , you you you do n't have to study everybody individually phd d: well , to study the simplest case to get rid of extra phd e: the the the but consider postdoc b: but just simple case and the one that has the lot of data associated with it . phd d: right . cuz what if it 's the case and i do n't think this is true grad a: that was a great overlap by the way . phd d: what if it 's the case that when two people overlap they equate their you know , there 's a conservation of energy and everybody both people talk more softly ? i do n't think this happens at all . postdoc b: or or what if what if the equipment what if the equipment adjusts somehow , phd d: or they get louder . postdoc b: there 's some equalizing in there ? phd d: yeah or professor c: uh , no we do n't have that . phd d: i mean . grad a: well , but but i think that 's what i was saying about different types of overlap . postdoc b: ok . professor c: but . postdoc b: saturation . phd d: there are there are different types , and within those types , like as jose was saying , that sounded like a backchannel overlap , meaning the kind that 's a friendly encouragement , like `` mm - hmm . `` , `` great ! `` , `` yeah ! `` phd e: yeah . phd d: and it does n't take you do n't take the floor . um , but , some of those , as you showed , i think can be discriminated by the duration of the overlap . phd e: yeah . phd d: so . it actually the s new student , don , who um adam has met , and he was at one of our meetings he 's getting his feet wet and then he 'll be starting again in mid - january . he 's interested in trying to distinguish the types of overlap . i do n't know if he 's talked with you yet . but in sort of honing in on these different types phd e: yeah . i do n't consi now i do n't consider that possibility . phd d: and so maybe phd e: this is a s a general studio of the overlapping we 're studying the i professor c: yeah . well i i i i would s actually still recommend that he do the overall thing phd d: so it might be something that we can help by categorizing some of them and then , you know , look at that . professor c: because it would be the quickest thing for him to do . he could you see , he already has all his stuff in place , phd d: yeah . professor c: he has the histogram mechanism , he has the stuff that subtracts out and all he has to do is change it uh uh from from log to plain energy and plot the histogram and look at it . and then he should go on and do the other stuff bec but but this will phd d: yeah . yeah , no . i did n't mean that that for you to do that , but i was thinking if if don and i are trying to get categories professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: and we label some data for you , and we say this is what we think is going so you do n't have to worry about it . and here 's the three types of overlaps . phd e: yeah . phd d: and we 'll we 'll do the labelling for you . phd e: yeah . professor c: hm - hmm . phd d: um . phd e: consider different class of overlap ? phd d: yeah , that we would be working on anyway . phd e: if there 's time . phd d: then maybe you can try some different things for those three cases , and see if that helps , or phd e: yeah . yeah . this is the thing i i comment with you before , that uh we have a great variation of th situation of overlapping . professor c: mm - hmm . phd e: and the behavior for energy is , uh log energy , is not uh the same all the time . phd d: mm - hmm . phd e: and professor c: but i guess i was just saying that that right now uh from the means that you gave , i do n't have any sense of whether even , you know , there are any significant number of cases for which there is distinct and i would imagine there should be some you know , there should be the distributions should be somewhat separated . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor c: uh and i i would still guess that if they are not separated at all , that there 's some there 's there 's most likely something wrong in the way that we 're measuring it . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor c: um , but um for instance , i mean i would n't expect that it was very common overall , that when two people were talking at the same time , that it would that it really was lower , phd e: yeah . professor c: although sometimes , as you say , it would . phd e: yeah . professor c: so . so . phd d: yeah , no , that was that was a jok phd e: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd d: or a sort of , a case where where you would never know that unless you actually go and look at two individuals . professor c: i mean . no . it could it probably does happen sometimes . phd e: yeah . grad a: right . professor c: yeah . yeah . grad a: mind if i turned that light off ? phd e: yeah . phd d: so . grad a: the flickering is annoying me . professor c: ok . phd d: it might the case , though , that the significant energy , just as jose was saying , comes in the non - backchannel cases . because in back most people when they 're talking do n't change their own energy when they get a backchannel , cuz they 're not really predicting the backchannel . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and sometimes it 's a nod and sometimes it 's an `` mm - hmm `` . phd e: yeah . phd d: and the `` mm - hmm `` is really usually very low energy . phd e: yeah . phd d: so maybe those do n't actually have much difference in energy . but all the other cases might . professor c: e e and and again what they what difference there was would kind of be lost in taking the log , phd d: and the backchannels are sort of easy to spot s in terms of their words or i mean , just listen to it . phd e: yeah . phd d: so . professor c: so , as well . phd d: well , it would be lost no matter what you do . phd e: but yeah . phd d: it just professor c: mmm , no , if it 's if i if it 's grad a: tone professor c: well , it wo n't be as big . phd d: i mean , even if you take the log , you can your model just has a more sensitive measures . phd e: yeah . grad a: sure , but tone might be very phd d: so . grad a: yeah , you 're `` mm - hmm `` tone is going to be very different . phd d: yeah . right . right . grad a: you could imagine doing specialized ones for different types of backchannels , if you could if you had a good model for it . your `` mm - hmm `` detector . professor c: if if you 're a i guess my point is , if you 're doing essentially a linear separation , taking the log first does in fact make it harder to separate . grad a: right . professor c: so it 's so , uh if you i i so i if there if there close to things it does phd e: yeah . phd d: yeah . professor c: it 's a nonlinear operation that does in fact change the distinction . if you 're doing a non if you 're doing some fancy thing then then yeah . and right now we 're essentially doing this linear thing by looking across here and and saying we 're going to cut it here . um and that that 's the indicator that we 're getting . but anyway , yeah , we 're not disagreeing on any of this , we should look at it more uh more finely , but uh uh i think that this often happens , you do fairly complicated things , and then you stand back from them and you realize that you have n't done something simple . so uh , if you generated something like that just for the energy and see , and then , a a a as as liz says , when they g have uh uh smaller um , more coherent groups to look at , that would be another interesting thing later . phd e: uh - huh . professor c: and then that should give us some indication between those , should give us some indication of whether there 's anything to be achieved f from energy at all . phd e: uh - huh . professor c: and then you can move on to the uh uh more pitch related stuff . phd e: mm - hmm . i i i think this is a good idea . professor c: ok . postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd e: not consider the log energy . professor c: yeah . but then the have you started looking at the pitch related stuff at all , or ? pitch related ? phd e: the ? professor c: harmonicity and so on ? phd e: i i 'm preparing the the program but i do n't i do n't begin because eh i saw your email professor c: preparing to yeah . phd e: and i agree with you it 's better to i suppose it 's better to to consider the the energy this kind of parameter bef professor c: yeah . oh , that 's not what i meant . no , no . i i i i well , we certainly should see this but i i i i think that the harm i certainly was n't saying this was better than the harmonicity and pitch related things i was just saying phd e: i i go on with the with the pitch , professor c: yeah . phd e: aha ! ok . professor c: yeah , i was just saying phd e: i i i i understood uh that eh i i had to finish by the moment with the and and concentrate my my energy in that problem . professor c: ok . ok . ok . but i think , like , all these derivatives and second derivatives and all these other very fancy things , i think i would just sort of look at the energy and then get into the harmonicity as as a suggestion . phd e: ok . i go on with the pitch . professor c: uh ok . so maybe uh since w we 're trying to uh compress the meeting , um , i know adam had some form stuff he wanted to talk about and did you have some ? postdoc b: i wanted to ask just s something on the end of this top topic . so , when i presented my results about the uh distribution of overlaps and the speakers and the profiles of the speakers , at the bottom of that i did have a proposal , phd e: uh - huh . postdoc b: and i had plan to go through with it , of of co coding the types of overlaps that people were involved in s just with reference to speaker style so , you know , with reference phd d: oh . postdoc b: and you know i said that on my in my summary , phd d: that 'd be great . postdoc b: that you know so it 's like people may have different amounts of being overlapped with or overlapping phd d: yeah , i remem right . postdoc b: but that in itself is not informative without knowing what types of overlaps they 're involved in so i was planning to do a taxonomy of types overlaps with reference to that . phd d: that would be great . postdoc b: so , but it you know it 's like it sounds like you also have uh something in that direction . phd d: that would be really great . phd e: yeah . grad a: hmm . postdoc b: is is it phd d: we have nothing you know , basically , we got his environment set up . he 's he 's a double - e { comment } you know . so . it 's mostly that , if we had to label it ourselves , we we would or we 'd have to , to get started , but if it it would be much better if you can do it . you 'd be much better { comment } at doing it also because you know , i i 'm not i do n't have a good feel for how they should be sorted out , postdoc b: interesting . phd d: and i really did n't wan na go into that if i did n't have to . so if if you 're w willing to do that or or grad a: it would be interesting , though , to talk , maybe not at the meeting , but at some other time about what are the classes . postdoc b: well maybe we can ok . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: i think that 's a research effort in and of itself , phd e: yeah . grad a: yeah , it would be interesting . phd d: because you can read the literature , but i do n't know how it 'll turn out phd e: yeah . phd d: and , you know , it 's always an interesting question . postdoc b: it seems like we also s with reference to a purpose , too , that we we 'd want to have them coded . phd e: i would think it 's interesting , yeah . yeah . phd d: that 'd be great . grad a: yep . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: ok . phd d: that 'd be really great . postdoc b: i can do that . phd d: and we 'd still have some funding for this project , phd e: uh uh phd d: like probably , if we had to hire some like an undergrad , because uh don is being covered half time on something else postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: i mean , he we 're not paying him the full ra - ship for all the time . so . um if we got it to where we wanted we needed someone to do that i do n't think there 's really enough data where where postdoc b: mm - hmm . yeah , i see this as a prototype , to use the only the the already transcribed meeting as just a prototype . phd e: yeah . phd d: yeah . phd e: i i think a a another parameter we c we we can consider is eh the duration . phd d: but grad a: mm - hmm . phd e: another e e m besides eh the the class of overlap , the duration . because is possible eh some s s um eh some classes eh has eh a type of a duration , eh , a duration very short uh when we have we have overlapping with speech . postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah , definitely . postdoc b: yeah , maybe it may be correlated . mm - hmm . phd e: is possible to have . and it 's interesting , i think , to consider the the window of normalization , normalization window . eh because eh if we have a type of , a kind of eh overlap , eh backchannel overlap , with a short duration , is possible eh to normali i i that if we normalize eh with eh eh consider only the the eh window eh by the left eh ri eh side on the right side overlapping with a a very eh oh a small window eh the if the fit of normalization is eh mmm bigger eh in that overlapping zone eh very short postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah , that 's true . the window should n't be larger than the backchannel . phd e: i i me i i understand . i mean that you have eh you have a backchannel , eh , eh you have a overlapping zone very short phd d: yeah . phd e: and you consider eh n eh all the channel to normalize this very short eh professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd e: for example `` mmm mm - hmm hmm `` eh and the energy is not eh height eh i think if you consider all the channel to normalize and the channel is mmm bigger eh eh eh compared with the with the overlapping eh duration , professor c: mm - hmm . phd e: eh the effect is mmm stronger eh that i i mean the the e effect of the normalization eh with the mean and the and the variance eh is different that if you consider only a window compared eh with the n the duration of overlapping . professor c: mm - hmm . you you want it around the overlapping part . phd e: not yeah . professor c: you want it to include something that 's not in overlapping phd e: yeah . postdoc b: mm - hmm . professor c: but but uh phd e: yeah . i i do n't know . professor c: yeah . phd e: is s if phd d: well it 's a sliding window , right ? so if you take the the measure in the center of the overlapped piece , you know , there 'd better be some something . professor c: mm - hmm . phd e: yeah . yeah . phd d: but if your window is really huge then yeah you 're right you wo n't even phd e: yeah , this is the this is the the idea , to consider only the the small window near near near the the overlapping zone . phd d: the portion of the { comment } of the backchannel wo n't wo n't effect anything . but you yeah . so . you know , you should n't be more than like you should definitely not be three times as big as your as your backchannel . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: then you 're gon na w have a wash . and hopefully it 's more like on the order of professor c: i 'm not sure that 's necessarily true . phd e: yeah ? postdoc b: it is an empirical question , it seems like . professor c: because because it because um again if you 're just compensating for the gain , phd d: yea phd e: yeah . postdoc b: yeah . professor c: you know , the fact that this this gain thing was crude , and the gain wh if someone is speaking relatively at consistent level , just to to give a an extreme example , all you 're doing is compensating for that . and then you still s and then if you look at the frame with respect to that , it still should should uh change phd d: yeah , it depends how different your normalization is , as you slide your window across . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: i mean . that 's something we do n't know . postdoc b: it 's possible to try it both ways , grad a: well , i mean we 're also talking about a couple of different things . postdoc b: is n't it ? in this small grad a: i mean , one is your analysis window and then the other is any sort of normalization that you 're doing . phd d: yeah i was talking about the n normalization window . grad a: and the and they could be quite different . professor c: right . phd d: yeah . phd e: yeah . professor c: this was sort of where where we were last week . grad a: yep . phd d: yeah . that 's true . yeah . professor c: but , anyway we we 'll have to look at some core things . postdoc b: ok . phd d: um . but that 'd be great if if you 're marking those phd e: ok . postdoc b: great . phd d: and um . postdoc b: ok . phd d: but it is definitely true that we need to have the time marks , phd e: yeah . postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: and i was assuming that will be inherited because , if you have the words and they 're roughly aligned in time via forced alignment or whatever we end up using , then you know , this student and i would be looking at the time marks postdoc b: yep , i agree . mm - hmm . coming off of the other phd d: and classifying all the frames inside those as whatever labels jane gave phd e: yeah . postdoc b: good . so , it would n't be i was n't planning to label the time marks . phd d: phd e: i can give you my transcription file , postdoc b: i was thinking that that would come from the engineering side , phd d: i do n't think you need to . phd e: no ? postdoc b: yeah . phd d: yeah . that should be linked to the words which are linked to time somehow , postdoc b: there you go . grad a: well we 're not any time soon going to get a forced alignment . phd d: right ? not now . grad a: so . phd e: yeah . grad a: um if it 's not hand - marked then we 're not going to get the times . phd d: well , it 's something that w well , we we would n't be able to do any work without a forced alignment anyway , phd e: yes phd d: so somehow if once he gets going we 're gon na hafta come up with one professor c: yes . phd d: and yeah . grad a: i mean w i guess we could do a very bad one with broadcast news . postdoc b: good . good . phd d: so whatever you would label would be attached to the words , i think . postdoc b: great ! good , good . mm - hmm . phd e: yeah . professor c: well again for the close mike stuff , we could come up take a s take the switchboard system or something , grad a: that might be good enough . yeah . professor c: and um grad a: it 'd be worth a try . it would be interesting to see what we get . professor c: just , you know , low - pass filter the speech and phd d: cuz there 's there 's a lot of work you ca n't do without that , i mean , how how would you professor c: yeah . phd d: you 'd have to go in and measure every start and stop point next to a word grad a: yep . postdoc b: it would be very inefficient . phd d: is y if you 're interested in anything to do with words . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: so . anyway so that 'd be great . postdoc b: good . ok . phd e: yeah . professor c: there 's something we should talk about later but maybe not just now . but , uh , should talk about our options as far as the uh uh transcription grad a: yep , if ibm does n't professor c: but . well , w but we 'll do that later . postdoc b: ok . good . phd d: do we hafta turn postdoc b: yeah . let 's do that later . phd d: are we supposed to keep recording here ? grad a: yeah right . postdoc b: yeah . professor c: we 'll talk about it later . postdoc b: yeah . professor c: so uh uh `` forms `` . grad a: forms next iteration of forms . professor c: you had something on forms . grad a: oops . postdoc b: oh ! oh good , ok . professor c: um . oh . postdoc b: how so it 's two pages per person ? grad a: nope . one 's a digit form , one 's a speaker form . postdoc b: oh ! grad a: so one is a one time only speaker form and the other is the digits . postdoc b: oh , i see . phd e: oh it 's the same . oh no no . is is new is ok . grad a: so do n't fill these out . postdoc b: alright . grad a: this is just the suggestion for uh what the new forms would look like . so , they incorporate the changes that we talked about . postdoc b: date and time . uh why did you switch the order of the date and time fields ? this is rather a low - level , but grad a: on which one ? postdoc b: on on the new one , time comes first and then date , but i thought grad a: oh you mean on the digit form ? postdoc b: this is this is rather a low level question , but but it used used to be date came first . grad a: uh , because the user fills out the first three fields and i fill out the rest . postdoc b: oh i see . grad a: so it was intentional . postdoc b: well , how would the how would the user know the time if they did n't know the date ? grad a: it 's an interesting observation , but it was intentional . because the date is when you actually read the digits and the time and , excuse me , the time is when you actually read the digits , but i 'm filling out the date beforehand . if you look at the form in front of you ? that you 're going to fill out when you read the digits ? you 'll see i 've already filled in the date but not the time . postdoc b: yeah . i always assumed so the time is supposed to be pretty exact , because i 've just been taking beginning time time of the meeting . phd d: yeah , me too . grad a: yeah , i 've noticed that in the forms . phd e: yeah , i yeah . grad a: the the reason i put the time in , is so that the person who 's extracting the digits , meaning me , will know where to look in the meeting , to try to find the digits . phd d: phd e: me too . oh ! postdoc b: oh dear . we 've been we 've been messing up your forms . phd e: but i am put i am putting the beginning of the meeting . grad a: i know . phd d: so you should call it , like , `` digits start time `` . or . grad a: and i have n't said anything . yep . phd e: in on there . professor c: why what what were you putting in ? postdoc b: oh , well , i was saying if we started the meeting at two thirty , phd e: yeah . postdoc b: i 'd put two thirty , and i guess d e everyone was putting two thirty , professor c: oh . phd e: yeah . grad a: no , it 's about fifty fifty . postdoc b: and i did n't realize there was `` uh oh i 'm about to read this and i should `` grad a: actually it 's about one third each . about one third of them are blank , about one third of them are when the digits are read , and about one third of them are when the meeting starts . so . phd e: oh . postdoc b: this would be a radical suggestion but grad a: i could put instructions ? nah . postdoc b: ei - either that or maybe you could maybe write down when people start reading digits on that particular session . phd e: yeah . grad a: but if i 'm not at the meeting , i ca n't do that . postdoc b: i know , ok . that 's a good point . professor c: yeah , he 's been setting stuff up and going away . so . postdoc b: i see . good point good point . professor c: for some reason he does n't want to sit through every meeting that 's grad a: yep , but that is the reason name , email and time are where they are . postdoc b: oh , ok . alright . professor c: yeah . postdoc b: i rest my grad a: and then the others are later on . professor c: uh - huh . postdoc b: ok . w phd e: and the seat is this number ? grad a: mm - hmm . postdoc b: seat and session . phd d: `` for official use only `` that 's well , he 's very professional . phd e: `` use only `` postdoc b: actually you could well that does raise another question , which is why is the `` professional use only `` line not higher ? why does n't it come in at the point of date and seat ? oh . because we 're filling in other things . grad a: what ? professor c: what ? postdoc b: well , because if y your your professional use , you 're gon na already have the date , and the s grad a: what which form are you talking about ? postdoc b: well i 'm comparing the new one with the old one . this is the digit form . phd e: oh . grad a: oh you 're talking about the digit form . professor c: digit . digit form . phd e: yeah . grad a: the digit form does n't the digit postdoc b: oh ! i was n't supposed to phd e: yeah . grad a: no , that 's alright . postdoc b: sorry . sorry . grad a: the digit form does n't have a `` for official use only `` line . it just has a line , which is what you 're supposed to read . postdoc b: that uh ok . grad a: so on the digits form , everything above the line is a fill - in form postdoc b: sorry about that . yeah . grad a: and everything below the line is digits that the user reads . postdoc b: yeah . ok . alright s but i did n't mean to derail our discussion here , so you really wanted to start with this other form . grad a: no , either way is fine i just you just started talking about something , and i did n't know which form you were referring to . postdoc b: alright yeah , i was comparing so th this is so i was looking at the change first . so it 's like we started with this and now we 've got a new version of it wi with reference to this . so the digit form , we had one already . now the f the fields are slightly different . professor c: so the main thing that the person fills out um is the name and email and time ? phd e: yeah . grad a: right . professor c: you do the rest ? phd e: ah ! grad a: yep . just as uh as i have for all the others . postdoc b: what and there 's an addition of the native language , which is a bit redundant . professor c: right . postdoc b: this one has native language and this one does too . grad a: that 's because the one , the digit form that has native language is the old form not the new form . postdoc b: oh ! thank you . thank you , thank you . there we go . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: oh , yeah . i 'll catch up here . ok , i see . professor c: `` south midland , north midland `` postdoc b: that 's the old and that 's the new . grad a: yeah this was the problem with these categories , i i picked those categories from timit . i do n't know what those are . phd d: actually , the only way i know is from working with the database and having to figure it out . phd e: what grad a: with timit , yeah ? phd e: uh - huh . grad a: so , i was gon na ask phd e: what i professor c: so is south midland like kansas ? grad a: wh w i mean . professor c: and north midland like like uh illinois , or ? phd d: well yeah . nor - um phd e: yeah . grad a: so so what accent are we speaking ? western ? professor c: by definition ? phd e: and for simple for for me ? professor c: well , phd d: probably western , yeah . phd e: is mean my native language spanish spanish ? eh the original is the center of spain and the beca grad a: yeah , i mean you could call it whatever you want . for the foreign language we could n't classify every single one . so i just left it blank and you can put whatever you want . phd e: because is different , the span - uh the spanish language from the the north of spain , of the south , of the west and the grad a: sure . phd e: but . grad a: so i 'm not sure what to do about the region field for english variety . you know , when i wrote i was writing those down , i was thinking , `` you know , these are great if you 're a linguist `` . phd e: yeah . grad a: but i do n't know how to i do n't know how to i do n't know how to categorize them . postdoc b: yeah . phd d: actually even if you t postdoc b: yeah . professor c: if you 're if e if y phd d: this was n't developed by th these regions were n't professor c: if you 're a ti or mit from nineteen eighty - five . grad a: yeah so i guess my only question was if if you were a south midland speaking region , person ? would you know it ? professor c: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . grad a: is that what you would call yourself ? phd d: i do n't know . grad a: yeah . professor c: you know , i think if you 're talking if you 're thinking in terms of places , as opposed to names different peop names people have given to different ways of talking , i would think north midwest , and south midwest would be more common than saying midland , right , i mean , i i went to s phd d: yeah . now the usage maybe we can give them a li like a little map ? with the regions and they just no , i 'm serious . postdoc b: no , that 's not bad . yeah . phd d: because it takes less time , and it 's sort of cute phd e: i at this in that side in that side of the the paper . phd d: there 's no figure . professor c: well . phd d: well just a little you know , it does n't have all the detail , but you sort of professor c: but what if you moved five times and and uh postdoc b: well , i was thinking you could have ma multiple ones and then the amount of time phd d: no , but you 're categorized . that 's the same postdoc b: so , roughly . so . you could say , you know `` ten years on the east coast , five years on the west coast `` or something or other . grad a: well , we i think we do n't want to get that level of detail at this form . i think that 's alright if we want to follow up . but . professor c: i guess we do n't really know . phd d: i mean i as i said , i do n't think there 's a huge benefit to this region thing . it it gets the problem is that for some things it 's really clear and usually listening to { comment } it you can tell right away if it 's a new york or boston accent , but new york and boston are two well , i guess they have the nyc , but new england has a bunch of very different dialects and postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: and so does um s so do other places . grad a: yeah , so i picked these regions cuz we had talked about timit , and those are right from timit . phd d: right . and so these would be satisfying like a speech research community if we released the database , grad a: so . phd d: but as to whether subjects know where they 're from , i 'm not sure because um i know that they had to fill this out for switchboard . this is i almost exactly the same as switchboard regions postdoc b: oh . ok . phd d: or very close . yeah . um and i do n't know how they filled that out . but th if midland yeah , midland is the one that 's difficult i guess . postdoc b: i think a lot of people yeah . phd d: also northwest you 've got oreg - washington and oregon now which uh y people do n't know if it 's western or northern . grad a: yeah , i certainly do n't . i mean , i was saying i do n't even know what i speak . phd d: it 's like northwest grad a: am i speaking am i speaking western ? professor c: oh , what is northern ? well and what and what 's northern ? phd d: i think originally it was north northwest grad a: northwest ? phd d: but phd e: yeah . grad a: yeah , so this is a real problem . i do n't know what to do about it . phd d: yeah . postdoc b: i would n't know how to characterize mine either . and and so i would think i would say , i 've i 've got a mix of california and ohio . grad a: i c i think at the first level , for example , we speak the same . phd d: i do n't know . grad a: our our dialects or whatever you region are the same . postdoc b: uh - huh . grad a: but i do n't know what it is . so . phd d: well , you have a like techno - speak accent i think . grad a: a techno - speak accent ? phd d: yeah , you know ? phd e: a techno grad a: a a geek region ? phd d: well it 's i mean i you can sort of identify postdoc b: geek region . phd d: it f it 's it 's not not that that 's phd e: is different . is different . phd d: but but maybe that maybe we could leave this and see what people see what people choose and then um let them just fill in if they do n't i mean i do n't know what else we can do , cuz that 's north midland . postdoc b: i 'm wondering about a question like , `` where are you from mostly ? `` phd e: yeah . professor c: but i i 'm s i 'm now that you mentioned it though , i am really am confused by `` northern `` . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: i agree . i agree . professor c: i really am . postdoc b: i agree . professor c: i mean , if if you 're in new england , that 's north . phd e: yeah . professor c: if you 're i if you 're postdoc b: scandinavian , the minnesota area 's north . professor c: uh yeah . that 's but that 's also north midland , phd e: yeah . postdoc b: oh , @ @ . ok . professor c: right ? postdoc b: professor c: and and and oregon and and oregon and washington are are western , but they 're also northern . phd d: yeah . of course , that 's very different from , like , michigan , or phd e: mmm . postdoc b: mm - hmm . professor c: uh , idaho ? phd d: well there are hardly any subjects from idaho . professor c: montana ? grad a: no problem . postdoc b: just rule them out . phd d: there 's only a few people in idaho . grad a: there are hardly any subjects from `` beep `` phd e: yeah . phd d: sorry . professor c: maybe maybe we maybe we should put a little map and say `` put an x on where you 're from `` , phd d: no , that 's phd e: and is in those grad a: yeah really . phd d: we could ask where they 're from . phd e: and if you put postdoc b: it 'd be pretty simple , yeah . phd d: yeah . but - we went back to that . phd e: yeah . if you put eh the state ? grad a: well well we sort of postdoc b: where are you from mostly ? phd d: we we went we went around this and then a lot of people ended up saying that it phd e: uh - huh . mm - hmm . phd d: you know . grad a: well , i like the idea of asking `` what variety of english do you speak `` as opposed to where you 're from because th if we start asking where we 're from , again you have to start saying , `` well , is that the language you speak or is that just where you 're from ? `` phd e: yeah . postdoc b: hmm ? phd d: right . right . phd e: yeah . professor c: let 's mm - hmm . phd d: i mean it gives us good information on where they 're from , but that does n't { comment } tell us anything grad a: and professor c: we could always ask them if they 're from phd d: well , enough about their grad a: i mean . so so i would say germany phd d: like grad a: you know am i speaking with german accent postdoc b: oh . grad a: i do n't think so . postdoc b: well , see , i 'm thinking `` where are you from mostly `` phd d: right . grad a: oh , ok yeah . postdoc b: because , you know , then you have some some kind of subjective amount of time factored into it . phd e: yeah . yeah . grad a: yep . yeah , i guess i could try to put squeeze in a little map . phd e: yeah . grad a: i mean there 's not a lot of r of room professor c: i 'd say , uh , `` boston , new york city , the south and regular `` . postdoc b: well phd d: oh , i do n't know . grad a: i think of those , northern is the only one that i do n't even know what they 're meaning . postdoc b: yeah . yeah . phd e: and and um and usually here people here know what is their kind of mmm lang english language ? professor c: that 's a joke . that 's phd d: so let 's make it up . s i mean , who cares . right ? we can make up our own so we can say `` northwest `` , `` rest of west `` or something . you know . `` west `` and i mean . grad a: ye i do n't think the northwest people speak any differently than i do . phd d: it does n't even yeah , exactly . that 's not really a region . postdoc b: i professor c: `` do you come from the louisiana purchase ? `` phd d: so we could take out `` north `` `` northern `` . grad a: that that 's exactly what we 're arguing about . phd e: eh here is easy for people to know ? phd d: that 's yeah , w it 's in it 's it 's harder in america anywhere else , basically . grad a: we do n't know . phd e: because you have grad a: i mean some of them are very obvious . if you if you talk to someone speaking with southern drawl , you know . phd e: n m yeah . postdoc b: yeah , or boston . grad a: or boston , yeah . postdoc b: i ca n't do it , but phd e: or boston ? professor c: yeah . phd d: and those people , if you ask them to self - identify their accent they know . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: yeah , they do . phd d: they know very well . postdoc b: yeah i agree i agree . i agree . phd d: they know they do n't speak the same as the grad a: but is boston new england ? postdoc b: and they 're proud of it . phd d: day o postdoc b: yeah . phd d: yeah , exactly . postdoc b: it 's identity thing . phd d: and they 're glad to tell you . phd e: style . phd d: well . depends who you ask , i suppose . grad a: w i guess that 's the problem with these categories . phd e: phd d: but that 's why they have new york city but postdoc b: well , we ca well , why ca n't we just say characterize something like char characterize your accent professor c: well , boston 's @ @ , too . phd d: or `` characterize your accent if you can . `` postdoc b: and and so i would say , `` i do n't know `` . phd d: yeah . right , which probably means you have a very postdoc b: but someone from boston with a really strong coloration would know . and so would an r - less maine or something , phd d: and that 's actually good . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: yeah . phd d: i was i was thinking of something along that line professor c: how postdoc b: good . phd d: because if you do n't know , then , you know , ruling out the fact that you 're totally inept or something , postdoc b: hmm . phd d: if somebody does n't know , it probably means their accent is n't very strong compared to the sort of midwest standard . professor c: well , i mean , it was n't that long ago that we had somebody here who was from texas who was absolutely sure that he did n't have any accent left . postdoc b: hmm ? professor c: and and had he had a pretty noticeable drawl . grad a: ok , so . i propose , take out northern add , do n't know . postdoc b: oh . yeah . i i would say more more sweepingly , `` how would you characterize your accent ? `` phd e: yeah . grad a: so you want to change the instructions also not just say region ? phd d: w postdoc b: well , i think this discussion has made me think that 's s something to consider . grad a: i do n't know if i if i read this form , i think they 're going to ask { comment } it they 're going to answer the same way if you say , `` what 's variety of english do you speak ? region . `` as if you say `` what variety of region region { comment } do you speak ? please characterize your accent ? `` they 're going to answer the same way . postdoc b: i guess well , i was not sure that i phd e: mmm . postdoc b: so . i was suggesting not having the options , just having them grad a: oh , i see . phd e: huh . grad a: well what we talked about with that is is so that they would understand the granularity . postdoc b: yes , but if , as liz is suggesting , people who have strong accents know that they do grad a: i mean that 's what i had before , and you told me to list the regions to list them . postdoc b: and are well , i know . professor c: right . phd d: each each one has pros and cons grad a: so . professor c: right . postdoc b: that 's true . professor c: right . phd d: i mean we we professor c: yeah last week last week i was sort of r arguing for having it wide open , but then everybody said `` oh , no , but then it will be hard to interpret because some people will say cincinnati and some will say ohio `` . grad a: i mean i had it wide open last week and and you said timit . professor c: and . postdoc b: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd d: what if we put in both ? grad a: that 's what the `` other `` is for . phd d: and would people no , i mean what if we put in both ways of asking them ? so . one is region and the another one is `` if you had to characterize yourself your accent , what would you say ? `` grad a: wo n't they answer the same thing ? phd d: well they might only answer only one of the questions but if postdoc b: yeah that 's fine . phd d: you know . postdoc b: they might say `` other `` for region because they do n't know what category to use phd d: actually postdoc b: but they might have something phd d: right . postdoc b: because it is easier to have it open ended . phd d: it just and we we might learn from what they say , as to which one 's a better { comment } way to ask it . professor c: w this is just a small thing phd d: but i cuz i really do n't know . professor c: but um it says `` variety `` and then it gives things that e have american as one of the choices . but then it says `` region `` , but region actually just applies to uh , us , grad a: right . professor c: right ? grad a: i mean that 's why i put the `` other `` in . postdoc b: well , we thought about it . professor c: ah , ok . postdoc b: yeah , ok . we just we sort of thought , `` yes , `` y y i mean professor c: s postdoc b: at the last meeting , my recollection was that we felt people would have uh less that that there are so many types and varieties of these other languages and we are not going to have that many subjects from these different language groups grad a: yep . postdoc b: and that it 's a huge waste of of space . professor c: ok . grad a: so i mean , i i mean the way i had it last time was region was blank , postdoc b: that 's what i thought . grad a: it just said region colon . postdoc b: yeah . grad a: and and i think that that 's the best way to do it , postdoc b: yeah . grad a: because because of the problems we 're talking about but what we said last week , was no , put in a list , so i put in a list . so should we go back to phd d: maybe we can make the list a little smaller . grad a: well , certainly dropping `` northern `` i think is right , because none of us know what that is . phd d: cuz , i mean and keeping `` other `` , and then maybe this north midland , we call it `` north midwest `` . south midwest , or just professor c: yes i i i think so . yeah . phd d: south midwest . does that make sense ? phd e: south midwest ? phd d: that would help me professor c: u unless you 're from midland , kansas . phd d: yeah . cuz midland professor c: but . yeah . phd d: i do n't know where midland is professor c: there 's a or midland midland grad a: is `` midwest `` one word ? professor c: is it midland midland midland , texas or midland , kansas ? i forget . phd d: y yeah , one w professor c: but there 's a town . in in there . phd d: oh . professor c: i forget what it is @ @ . postdoc b: i do n't think that 's what they mean . phd d: but , professor c: yeah . phd d: yeah . so . kansas would be south midland . right ? professor c: y yeah . phd d: and and would n't yeah . professor c: and colorado , right across the border , would be north midland . phd d: so , th i 'm from kansas , actually . phd e: southern midland . phd d: yeah . grad a: and uh phd d: colora oh , right . and then , the the dropping north , so it would be western . it 's just one big shebang , where , of course , you have huge variation in dialects , grad a: but that 's true of new england too . professor c: but you do in the others , too . so . phd d: but { comment } but so do you grad a: so . i mean only one phd d: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd d: yeah . yeah . grad a: well , i should n't say that . i have no clue . i was going to say the only one that does n't have a huge variety is new york city . but i have no idea whether it does or not . postdoc b: it does seem i mean . i i would think that these categories would be more w would be easier for an an analyst to put in rather than the subject himself . professor c: u grad a: i think that that was what happened with timit , was that it was an analyst . postdoc b: ok . professor c: wait a minute . where does where does d w where where 's where does uh new new york west of west of uh new york city and pennsylvania uh and uh phd d: yeah , i do n't know how it came from . postdoc b: ok . grad a: new england phd d: so . that 's new england i think . professor c: n no , it 's not . phd d: yeah . grad a: oh , no . postdoc b: i sort of thought they were part of the one of the midlands . professor c: oh no . no , no . no . pennsylvania is not grad a: `` other `` , it goes under `` other `` , definitely under `` other `` . phd d: well , you know , pennsylvania has a pretty strong dialect and it 's totally different than professor c: pennsylvania yeah . pennsylvania is not new england . and uh new jersey is not new england and maryland is not new england and none of those are the south . grad a: ok . so . another suggestion . rather than have circle fill in forms , say `` region , open paren , e g southern comma western comma close paren colon . `` postdoc b: yeah . ok . phd d: ok ! postdoc b: fine by me , fine by me . professor c: that 's good . i like that . phd d: sure ! phd e: yeah . postdoc b: yeah . professor c: we 're all sufficiently tired of this that we 're agreeing with you . phd d: let 's just and we 'll see what we get . phd e: yeah . postdoc b: be easier on the subjects . i think that 's fine . no . i think professor c: so . postdoc b: i like that . i like that . professor c: you like it ? postdoc b: yeah , i do . professor c: ok . grad a: actually , maybe we do one non - english one as well . professor c: good . grad a: southern , cockney ? phd d: yeah , and phd e: yeah . grad a: is that a real accent ? postdoc b: sure , yeah ! grad a: how do you spell it ? phd e: yeah . postdoc b: i think that 's fine . professor c: cockney ? grad a: n e professor c: co yeah . phd d: you could say liverpool . professor c: liverpuddlian . postdoc b: yeah . alright . phd d: actually , liverpool does n't l yeah . it 's i 'm s i ha postdoc b: well . well . i mean , pure grad a: ok , we 'll do it that way . actually , i like that a lot . because that get 's at both of the things we were trying to do , professor c: ok . grad a: the granularity , and the person can just self - assess and we do n't have to argue about what these regions are . postdoc b: that 's right . and it 's easy on the subjects . professor c: ok . phd e: yeah . grad a: yep . postdoc b: now i have one suggestion on the next section . phd e: mm - hmm . grad a: mm - hmm . postdoc b: so you have native language , you have region , and then you have time spent in english speaking country . now , i wonder if it might be useful to have another open field saying `` which one parenthesis s { comment } paren closed parenthesis `` . cuz if they spent time in in britain and america professor c: yes . postdoc b: it does n't have to be ex all at all exact , just in the same open field format that you have . grad a: yep , just which one . i think that 's fine . postdoc b: mm - hmm . with a with an s phd e: mm - hmm . postdoc b: `` which one sss , { comment } optional s . professor c: ok . phd e: postdoc b: yeah . professor c: we uh we done ? grad a: yep . postdoc b: yeah , that 's good . professor c: ok . um s e any any other uh open mike topics or should we go right to the digits ? grad a: um , did you guys get my email on the multitrans ? that ok . postdoc b: is n't that wonderful ! yeah . grad a: yeah . so . so . i i have a version also which actually displays all the channels . postdoc b: excellent ! thank you ! phd d: it 's really great . grad a: but it 's hideously slow . postdoc b: so you this is n dan 's patches , dan ellis 's patches . grad a: the what the ones i applied , that you can actually do are dan 's , because it does n't slow it down . phd d: m postdoc b: fantastic ! grad a: just uses a lot of memory . phd d: so when you say `` slow `` , does that mean to grad a: no , the the one that 's installed is fine . it 's not slow at all . i wrote another version . which , instead of having the one pane with the one view , it has multiple panes with the views . phd e: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . grad a: but the problem with it is the drawing of those waveforms is so slow that every time you do anything it just crawls . postdoc b: mm - hmm . grad a: it 's really bad . phd d: it 's so , it it 's the redrawing of the w postdoc b: that 's a consideration . grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: oh uh - huh , w as you move . grad a: as you play , as you move , as you scroll . just about anything , and it it was so slow it was not usable . so that 's why i did n't install it and did n't pursue it . postdoc b: and this 'll be a hav having the multiwave will be a big help cuz in terms of like disentangling overlaps and things , that 'll be a big help . phd d: oh yeah . grad a: so . i think that the one dan has is usable enough . phd d: yeah . grad a: it does n't display the others . it displays just the mixed signal . postdoc b: mm - hmm . grad a: but you can listen to any of them . postdoc b: that 's excellent . he also has version control which is another nice phd e: yeah . postdoc b: e so you e the patches that you grad a: no , he suggested that , but he did n't it 's not installed . postdoc b: oh , i thought it was in one of those patches . grad a: no . no . postdoc b: oh ok . well . alright . phd d: so is there any hope for actually displaying the wave form ? grad a: um , not if we 're going to use tcl - tk at least not if we 're going to use snack . phd d: ok . grad a: i mean you would have to do something ourselves . postdoc b: well , or use the one that crawls . phd d: ok . well , i 'm i probably would be trying to use the { comment } whatever 's there . and it 's useful to have the grad a: why do n't we we see how dan 's works and if it if we really need the display phd d: yeah . i mean . i wonder i 'm just wondering if we can display things other than the wave form . so . suppose we have a feature a feature stream . and it 's just , you know , a a uni - dimensional feature , varying in time . phd e: yeah . phd d: and we want to plot that , instead of the whole wave form . grad a: i mean . phd d: that might be faster . phd e: yeah . phd d: right ? grad a: we we could do that but that would mean changing the code . phd d: so . phd e: yeah . grad a: i mean this is n't a program we wrote . professor c: yeah . grad a: this is a program that we got from someone else , and we 've done patches on . phd d: ok . postdoc b: mm - hmm . phd d: ok . well , i 'll talk to you about it and we can see grad a: so . professor c: cou - i e i mean , y phd e: yeah . grad a: yeah . phd d: but it 's definitely great to have the other one . professor c: if there was some is there some way to have someone write patches in something faster and and link it in , or something ? phd d: that 's grad a: not easily . professor c: or is that grad a: i mean y yes we could do that . you could you can write widgets in c . and try to do it that way but i just do n't think it professor c: yeah . grad a: let 's try it with dan 's and if that is n't enough , we can do it otherwise . phd d: right . grad a: i think it is , cuz when i was playing with it , the mixed signal has it all in there . and so it 's really it 's not too bad to find places in the in the stream where things are happening . phd d: ok . grad a: so i i do n't think it 'll be bad . postdoc b: and it 's also also the case that that uh this multi - wave thing is proposed to the phd e: hmm ? postdoc b: so . dan proposed it to the transcriber central people , and it 's likely that uh so . and and they responded favorably looks as though it will be incorporated in the future version . phd d: oh . postdoc b: they said that the only reason they had n't had the multi the parallel uh stream one before was simply that they had n't had time to do it . and uh so it 's likely that this this may be entered into the ch this central @ @ . phd e: yeah . grad a: and if if professor c: they may well have not had much demand for it . postdoc b: well that 's that 's that 's true , too . professor c: yeah . postdoc b: this is a a useful thing for us . phd d: so . you mean they could they could do it and it would be fast enough if they do it ? phd e: yeah . grad a: depends on how much work they did . postdoc b: oh . no . i just mean i just mean that it 's that that his phd d: or ? phd e: oh . postdoc b: so . this one that we now have does have the status of potentially being incorporated l likely being incorporated into the central code . phd d: mm - hmm . ok . postdoc b: now , tha now , if we develop further then , y uh , i do n't grad a: i think if if if one of us sat down and coded it , so that it could be displayed fast enough i 'm sure they would be quite willing to incorporate it . postdoc b: i mean it 's i think it 's a nice feature to have it set that way . mm - hmm . grad a: but it 's not a trivial task . postdoc b: mm - hmm . yeah . phd d: ok . postdoc b: i just like the idea of it being something that 's , you know , tied back into the original , so that other people can benefit from it . grad a: yeah . postdoc b: yeah . however . i also understand that you can have widgets that are very useful for their purpose and that you do n't need to always go that w route . yeah . phd e: ok . grad a: anyway , shall we do digits ? postdoc b: yeah . professor c: yeah . let 's do digits , uh , and then we 'll turn off the mikes , and then i have one other thing to discuss . postdoc b: ok . grad a: ok . phd d: i actually have to leave . so . um . i mean i had to leave at three thirty , postdoc b: uh - oh . grad a: ok . professor c: oh . phd d: so i can well , i can wait for the digits but i ca n't stay for the discussion grad a: well , you want to go first ? or . phd d: i c i have to make a call . professor c: ok . phd d: so . postdoc b: well , should we e should we switch off the g professor c: well , we 'll talk to you about it uh grad a: do you wan na go do digits or do you wan na just skip digits ? phd d: um . no , i can do digits if if but i do n't wan na butt in , or something . grad a: then alright . you go ahead . phd d: but if there 's something on the rest of the i 'm i 'll be around just have to make call before quarter of . so . phd e: mm - hmm . phd d: so i or we can talk about it . postdoc b: ke grad a: why do n't you read the digits ? professor c: yeah , why do n't you read the digits and then you can go . phd d: ok . alright . oh , this is the new one . grad a: yeah , do n't do n't read the old one . professor c: yeah . phd d: alright . the and the time is . ok . grad a: ok postdoc b: turn it off . professor c: ok . postdoc b: but wait till he ok . grad a: and

for the new forms , one is a one time only speaker form and the other is the digits . the reason the time is included above the date is so that the person who 's extracting the digits will know where to look in the meeting , to try to find them . in addition to name , time and email which the participant fills out , the form including seat number , session , native language , region of origin , time spent in an english speaking country , and accent characterization filled by research facilitators , after conducting a short interview .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: um we are so the meeting will have about the same format as the last time . so switching over i 've just left uh my first two screens . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: um mailed you the minutes of the last meeting uh just to save time . user interface: okay . cool . project manager: um and is there any questions you have that arised from last meeting that are particularly bothering you ? n user interface: mm um . no , i do n't think so . project manager: no ? okay , cool . industrial designer: no . project manager: then we shall start with a presentation from raj . marketing: yeah . hi , me raj , again . uh in this meeting i i 'm going to discuss about the trend watching , uh how these trends is going to affect our market potential and how important is this . so we have to look on this . first of all methodology . the met methodology to find out the trend was incl uh was done in a way we have done a rec not only a recent remote control market survey , but we also considered the latest fre fashion trends of the market , because we think that this is also a factor which will affect our sales and profit . so what are our findings ? in our uh in our findings we have seen that when we did our remote control market survey we found that uh people l uh people do have preference for tho fancy mobi uh f remote controls which look and feel very good , rather than having a functional look and feel uh good . so this sh this clearly indicates their preference for the design their outlook of the remote controls . so we should take into uh we should consider this factor as the most important factor , because this factor is twice as important , the second factor which is further ti twice the as important as the sec as uh the third factor . so this factor becomes the most important factor in our surv uh uh in our mark uh means in take in designing our rem uh remote controls . user interface: the last one is the most important one , is it ? marketing: no the first one is the user interface: oh , sorry . marketing: uh the outlook of the mobile , the it should have a fancy outlook , project manager: user interface: okay . marketing: the fancy design uh rather than just having a functional look and feel good , it should have a fancy look and foo feel good . user interface: okay . marketing: the second most important aspect is that remote control should be a technologically uh innovative . we must have some technological advancement in the remote control tha rather than just putting it as it is as the other remo uh remote controls are . so it uh should be technologically innovative like glow-in-the-dark or speech recognition , something like that . project manager: marketing: so that indicates our technological advancement . and the third most important aspect in the ta to take into consideration is that it should be easy to use , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: like it should n't be too much co complicated , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: there should n't be too many buttons on this mobi uh remote control , it should n't be too complicated uh like this way . and it should be uh and customers should be provided with manuals that is easy to understand in their local language , something . so that they could know how to use these remote controls . when we did uh f fashions uh , recent fashion uh our recent fashion update shows that user interface: sorry . industrial designer: marketing: ah yeah ? user interface: i was just reading fruit and vegetables . project manager: user interface: hard to know how we are going to incorporate that . marketing: y yeah uh yeah , we have to , because uh d you can see how people have related their clothes , shoes , and everything with fruits and vegetables , project manager: user interface: marketing: because the g world is now changing it 's trend towards organic , becoming more and more organic , user interface: okay . yeah . industrial designer: we should make a big sponge lemon , marketing: becoming industrial designer: and then it 'd be it would be yellow . marketing: yeah . project manager: user interface: yeah . industrial designer: it 's marketing: so user interface: th that 's very good . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . so something like that we we should do . user interface: glow-in-the-dark . okay . marketing: and people uh the f feel of the material is expected to be spongy rather than just having a plastic look , hard look . industrial designer: mm . user interface: well , that 's good . marketing: yeah . yeah . user interface: that 's what we kind of predicted anyway . marketing: so so that they could play with it while handi uh while handling it . so that should also be taken into consideration . user interface: okay . okay . marketing: so these are my views . user interface: okay . marketing: so user interface: okay , the spongy , not real spongy , you can marketing: no it ca y a user interface: do you think like rubber would be good or does it really want to be like gel kind of stuff ? marketing: the rubber which is good for health and which is quite disposable that we can take into co user interface: okay . quite disposable . marketing: yeah . 'cause we it should n't be have any harm to the environment also , user interface: okay . marketing: because our company is very well for taking all these concerns into consideration , project manager: alright , okay . user interface: oh okay . marketing: so we do n't want to have any harm to the society , user interface: uh-huh . okay . marketing: so project manager: fashion . user interface: project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: cool . marketing: so that 's all . project manager: fruit and veg , well there you go . user interface: project manager: just what i think of when i think of a remote control . user interface: mm . industrial designer: user interface: a remote control ? yeah . marketing: user interface: and were there any factors that were n't important in the survey , that they said we do n't want ? marketing: s uh we did n't find out any such point . user interface: or was it just okay . marketing: uh yes , there could be , but we could n't find out any , so project manager: mm-mm-mm-mm . user interface: cool . project manager: mm-mm-mm-mm-mm . user interface: f_ , what is it ? um . project manager: function f_ eight . user interface: yeah . project manager: hmm . user interface: okay . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: oh no , . user interface: no signal . is that ? industrial designer: no , it 's got it 's got it . marketing: yeah , uh yeah , uh yeah . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: excuse me . user interface: okay , and then f_ five , right ? project manager: uh , yeah . user interface: okay . um okay , so the interface concept um . yeah . the interface specification , what people um how they interact with it basically , i think . um so the method , we looked at existing designs , what are the what 's good about them , what 's bad about them , um i looked at their flaws , so we 're going to look at their flaws , everything . um and what the survey told us and what we think would be good , so a bit of imagination . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: uh the findings , i 've got some pictures to show you as well . project manager: either . industrial designer: marketing: hmm . user interface: yeah . okay , so most remote controls use graphical interface , where you um have got s buttons and you point it rather than having the output as a a stream of text or something . project manager: uh okay . user interface: um and we also found that there 's inconsistent layout , which makes it confusing . so i think for our remote control there is some inconsistency already in ec existing in between remote controls , but i think standard kind of um shape and uh play and those kind of but buttons like the the top right for on and off or something , project manager: right , okay . yeah . user interface: i think , people find that important , 'cause then it 's easy to use . project manager: user interface: and we 've got some pictures of some uh new remote controls to show you . project manager: excellent . user interface: do i press escape f_ five ? or just project manager: uh no just escape should uh user interface: escape , okay . um , oh i still have n't got my glasses on . yeah , okay . so these are the some of the pictures of existing ones . project manager: industrial designer: wow . user interface: i 'll just walk you through them . this one is a voice recognition . project manager: 'kay . user interface: and that 's the kind of idea we 're going for . project manager: looks pretty complicated . user interface: there 's um an lcd thing , which we thought could i thought could get a bit confusing and a bit expensive as well for us . project manager: right , okay . user interface: this one is got a kind of scroll like a mouse , project manager: mm-hmm , like the middle button . user interface: which yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: um and but i 'm not exactly sure how you 'd use that , industrial designer: project manager: ah it 's kinda like scrolling user interface: like would the computer come project manager: uh right , well , if i s if i 'm thinking of the right one , i 've got the same thing in front of my monitor , you scroll it and the when you reach the sort of um menu item that you require , you press the middle of the scroll . user interface: uh-huh , that 's like the lcd one , project manager: right , okay . user interface: is it ? but the one below that has got like a little scroll function on the side . but i presume that the functions must come up on the tv screen . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , presumably . user interface: i think that 's what that is . so these are just a few ideas . again that 's just quite boring shape , grey , looks quite space-agey , but too many buttons , i think on that one . industrial designer: uh it looks threatening . project manager: yeah , looks like uh looks like something out of a jet . user interface: yeah , it does look kind of dangerous . industrial designer: it looks like yeah . marketing: hmm . user interface: um this one i thought was really cool . it 's w it 's got the programmability function that we talked about . industrial designer: user interface: you can put it in there , it 's for your kids , and it 's quite an organic shape and the little circle around there is pretty cool . project manager: okay . user interface: and that 's really easy to use , bright , so i like this one lot for our design . i think something like that would be good . industrial designer: wow . project manager: yeah , i m i mean the one thing i think about about these ones is um these kl uh secured areas um , i 've seen a lot of them with the the cover missing . user interface: of course yellow . project manager: so like have it hinge rather than sort of clip on or whatever . user interface: right , yeah . yeah , that 's true . yeah . um so maybe that could be built into one of the things and it comes up on the tv or something . and this one , the over-sized one , i do n't know about you , but i think it 's a bit too gimmicky . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: user interface: i do n't think that will sell very well . project manager: i mean is that not sort of to assist the blind or something , is it ? user interface: i guess so . i do n't know . industrial designer: then d blind do n't watch tv . project manager: strange . user interface: i think that 's a bit yeah exactly . project manager: no they do , they do . industrial designer: they do ? project manager: they listen to it . yeah . user interface: yeah . and um this one is just pointing out . i like some of these things um the the raised symbols and everything , but pointing out um that this one the volume it is kind of pressing down , but it would actually go up , because of the shape . project manager: right , okay . user interface: so that could that 's a bit confusing . um but the buttons on this i think are it 's just showing you how you can have different different um buttons . they do n't have to be all the same . so that 's quite cool . um . project manager: 'kay but people tend to recognise certain shapes to do certain things anyway , do n't they ? user interface: yeah , exactly . um f_ five . yes . so there are some of the findings . so we need to combine those ones um industrial designer: user interface: and i 've just got an e-mail from our technical department saying that they have broken through with some new speech recognition software that you can program in . project manager: brilliant . that 's handy . user interface: um yeah it is , just in time , very handy . um so i think maybe incorporating that in our design would be good . project manager: okay . user interface: it 's you program it like you say , record , um and then , play , and then , record , play machine , and stuff like that , so that 's and it 's much yeah . so that 's quite cool . uh personal preferences just some imagination , the raised symbols i thought were good , the lcd , it does look smart , but i think maybe for our budget , do you think that would be a bit too expensive to have the industrial designer: the lcd user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and the other stuff uh , i think . user interface: and the speech recognition , 'cause i think we 're definitely going for the speech recognition , marketing: but in our market survey we have seen that people are willing to pay more , user interface: are we ? marketing: but they want the quality , they want f fancy look , they want some new design , something new . user interface: uh-huh . project manager: okay . marketing: uh yeah . user interface: uh-huh . but our budget , we 've project manager: it 's still it 's still got to get within our twelve fifty , you know . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so even if we increase our cost little bit , within uh some limits , and we give something new technological advancement as well as new design with fancy outlook , i think we will meet the requirements and we will be able to have a good sales in the market . user interface: uh-huh . okay . project manager: okay . user interface: i 'm not sure if the if for twenty five euros uh per uh twelve euros fifty m manufacturing cost , . industrial designer: ben bana project manager: yeah . i ca n't see tha although , th i mean to be to be sure they have got i mean they are going crazy with the lcd technology now , industrial designer: user interface: the lcd . project manager: so that you 've got your lcd tvs and everything so maybe the small industrial designer: project manager: but i mean like i i the black and white , i guess , it just does n't look funky enough . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: um but , i mean , like even mobile phones or whatever have now have colour lcd screens , user interface: no . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: w i ju i mean user interface: yeah . s project manager: i would n't know about the costs of them . user interface: uh-huh . industrial designer: but uh price price not withstanding um , is it too complicated , is it gon na be too much just overload ? marketing: and the project manager: twelve fifty . marketing: uh i it will be easy because there will be , on lcd s screen , there will be different frent icons , they can just click ok okay , whatever they wa project manager: possibly . user interface: yeah , that 's the thing , because industrial designer: but but the thing is when you use a remote control , you never look at it , right ? you 're looking at the tv project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and and it 's uh project manager: yeah . user interface: that 's true , yeah . industrial designer: it just seems kind of like a a needless th user interface: and one of the survey findings was that they want it easy to use , so i think i 'm not sure about the lcd . project manager: right . user interface: it 's a it 's great , it 's a good idea , but for our budget and for the thing we 're trying to go for eas easy to use , it 's not the thing we should go for , i think . child-friendly , i thought this was good , as you pointed out the um the bit , it often goes missing especially with children , but it 's a good shape and the organic is kind of we could make a vegetabley kind of round shape , i think . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so which vegetable ? project manager: well i mean we could make a user interface: yeah , i know , carrot . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: well , si since we 're going for the uh the k the sort of company colours , i think your lemon was n't that far s industrial designer: the the lemon . well what are the options ? user interface: yeah . project manager: and if it does n't work you know , we 've just made a lemon . user interface: but we do n't want it to be yeah . um the child-friendly , yeah . easy to use , it seems quite easy to use . i like the d the different shapes of the buttons and stuff . project manager: mm-hmm . i like i like the colourful buttons as well . user interface: i think that 's a good idea to go for . yeah . and the mouse one , i thought it was a good idea , because people use mo mice mouses now with the scrolling thing . um . project manager: yeah . i mean we are marketing to sort of twenty five to thirty five , user interface: yeah . project manager: so most people will have come in contact with that kind of use . user interface: s yeah . so they 'd be able to use that um , as i said i think i i 'd presume it would come up on the screen . project manager: yeah . user interface: um so there you go . project manager: and that means tha that means you get to bump that bit to the tv maker , so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: oh . user interface: so that 's um the user interface project manager: 'kay . user interface: design . project manager: industrial designer: okay . user interface: so okay , i 'll take this out now then . industrial designer: um so project manager: user interface: there you go . industrial designer: i guess there are a lot of options that we 're gon na have to choose from among , project manager: yeah , looks like it . industrial designer: and i 'll i 'll give you the uh , i guess , technical considerations for those . user interface: mm . project manager: uh user interface: industrial designer: and i 'm gon na use the whiteboard , just 'cause we have n't used it . project manager: yeah , i was just thinking the self same thing . user interface: industrial designer: right . so , the way i 'm gon na do this is uh we 're gon na take a look at some old remote controls , see how they work , uh reuse the the vital kind of um essential pieces of it , project manager: industrial designer: and then we 'll throw in our new innovations um and keep it all within budget . project manager: magic man . industrial designer: so uh yeah , looking inside a a very simple remote control . um this is what they sent me . 'kay . here 's uh the competition , i suppose . project manager: industrial designer: um you open it up , there 's a circuit board inside , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and there 's a a chip , a processor , the t_a_ one one eight three five , which um receives input from the buttons , and ch project manager: so this is a standard off the shelf kind of a chip , is it ? industrial designer: right , it 's very they 're very cheap remote . this remote costs nothing , you know . um so that takes a signals from the buttons and translates it into a sequence of pulses that it then sends to the to the amplifier , which is made of some transistors and amplifiers , op-amps , and then that gets sent to the uh to the l_e_d_ light , which i can kinda see is that little red light bulb at the end , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and that sends out the infrared uh light signal to the television . project manager: right . industrial designer: oh here it is . um so this is kind of the the bear essentials that we need to have in our remote control , because it it defines the uh project manager: okay . so can we make them to pretty much any size we like or is there a minimum or ? industrial designer: r um no , i mean this is a very old one , so now with the new technology this is a a minimally small and cheap thing to make . project manager: they got ta be almost a key-ring . industrial designer: right . so this is what we need to have for certain . project manager: okay . industrial designer: um . so you know , as we said , we got the outer casing , which we have to decide , you know , what 's it gon na be , um the board we have to use basically uh the same set-up , processor , um we 'll probably use the more advanced processor than they had , amplifier and transmitter are all standard . um so for the casing , uh this an e-mail i got from our manufacturing team uh , you know , we have a bunch of options from wood , titanium , rubber , plastic , whatnot , um latex , double-curved , curved . so lots of choices , user interface: project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: what do we think ? uh or sponge , i guess , is n't on there , right . project manager: well . user interface: mm . i 'm not sure about the sponge . industrial designer: organic sponge . project manager: well , i mean like la latex has a kinda spongy feeling to it , does n't it . industrial designer: uh yeah , it 's very elasticy for sure . project manager: um yeah . and that would k also give it kinda durability user interface: yeah . project manager: and user interface: yeah . industrial designer: um . project manager: and ther that 's also f sorta relatively cheap to cast . industrial designer: yeah so project manager: um so maybe s uh a sort of uh plastic initial plastic with a a latex kinda sheath ? industrial designer: okay so , here are a a plastic , uh latex user interface: i like the rubber , the stress balls , i think , project manager: oh right , okay . user interface: you know , that could be a bit of a gimmick like it 's good to hold and industrial designer: oh right . project manager: i do n't know what that stuff is . industrial designer: so something with give to it . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . and user interface: and that might be quite durable and easy to chuck around . industrial designer: and the colour is yellow , right ? user interface: yeah , project manager: or at least incorporating , yeah . user interface: y yellow incorporated , yeah . industrial designer: yellow , okay . um . project manager: i mean i forgot i we 're sort of uh i do n't know what other standard silver kind of user interface: i think project manager: other parts or uh user interface: mm . yeah , the buttons w like , 'cause there 's gon na be the the cover the the rubber or the plastic casing and then the buttons in probably two different colours project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm ' kay . user interface: or i if we 're having buttons actually , industrial designer: so yellow for the body , user interface: i don project manager: um . industrial designer: and then what colour for the buttons ? project manager: um i quite like the multi-coloured buttons myself . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so multi-coloured buttons . user interface: you do have ones like um play could be green or on and off is red , and stuff like that , yeah . industrial designer: project manager: yeah or yeah a limit uh maybe even just a limited multi-colour so it it does n't look too childish , perhaps . user interface: makes it easy to use . yeah , that 's true , because that blue one did look quite hardish . industrial designer: okay . project manager: yeah . although i mean this uh uh also comes to shape as well . i mean if we are gon na make it a novel i mean double-curved sounds good to me if we 're talking about sorta ergonomic and easy use , industrial designer: okay . user interface: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: a bit comfier , you know . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm 'kay so the shape we wan na go um how exactly ? maybe double user interface: like uh an hour glass kind of figure , is that what you 're thinking of , project manager: yeah it 's uh , yeah , that that 'd be that 's sort of comfortable to hold , easy to hold so you do n't drop it . user interface: or just like a it 's not industrial designer: what about a banana ? user interface: yeah . project manager: user interface: we could make novelty remote controls . industrial designer: yeah ? okay , like we could have a big banana shaped remote control , project manager: well , yeah , i mean like industrial designer: 'cause it 's yellow fruit , user interface: industrial designer: right ? project manager: yeah , yeah . mm and a lemon might be a little hard to grip . yeah . user interface: yeah . but then how would you point it ? marketing: ah industrial designer: marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . user interface: how would you point it ? industrial designer: oh i it does n't matter which end you point , i guess . user interface: what industrial designer: we could have a little l_e_d_s on each end . marketing: yeah , i appreciate this idea , project manager: they only cost pennies . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: because then this this will help us in our advertisement also project manager: marketing: and we can relate with fruits and vegetables , the people 's choices . that what our data shows that , so this w this w user interface: yeah . project manager: huh ? user interface: y i 'm i 'm not sure about the banana idea . marketing: project manager: um . industrial designer: so a spongy banana re marketing: project manager: i mean that that th user interface: rubber banana . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: does user interface: okay . project manager: it does seem a bit uh again childish maybe . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay , okay . user interface: i think maybe just draw on the kind of fruit and vegetable shape . and what else did you say about fashions ? what was trendy ? marketing: uh the fashion trend shows that fruits and vegetables , project manager: s industrial designer: see marketing: like people uh now project manager: and sponginess . industrial designer: so maybe an an unidentifiable fruit or fiable fruit or vegetable user interface: and spongy , yeah . marketing: spongy . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: like so it would have a stem perhaps user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and a user interface: maybe , yeah . industrial designer: maybe a it 'd be s axially symmetric . project manager: huh . user interface: like what 's what 's that , i do n't even know the name of it , some kind of , you know where it 's like looks like a little snowman kind of thing . i do n't know the name of that . industrial designer: so it 'd look like this kinda . user interface: yeah , that 's what i was thinking . industrial designer: like a gourd almost , or a squash of some sort ? project manager: uh . user interface: yeah , maybe that 's what they are . project manager: user interface: 'cause that you can hold it in like the bottom bit industrial designer: yeah , user interface: and industrial designer: and it has a a clear top and bottom so y so you could say , you know , it transmits from this end . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , why the hell not . let 's that 'll make us fifty million euros . user interface: i do n't know . what do you guy what do you think ? industrial designer: project manager: um . well , i guess it 's kind of dra uh you do n't necessarily have to have it sort of clearly identified as a fruit just to have that kind of fruitish shape , user interface: no . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah ? user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , then only we can relate it with something . project manager: yeah , we can relate it by advertising or marketing: yeah . exactly . industrial designer: okay , so double-curved , single-curved , what do we feel ? project manager: yeah . marketing: or we can do something , we can design two three shapes and we can have a public survey , let the public choose what they want . user interface: uh-huh . industrial designer: okay . project manager: there 's a good man . there 's a good idea . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay um , i guess , since you 're the marketing guy . marketing: yeah , sure . i will be happy to do that . project manager: industrial designer: we 'll uh okay , we could do that . um . user interface: okay . and buttons would , did we say ? uh different shapes of buttons ? industrial designer: project manager: um i l i su i mean for the specific functions , you know , up and down , uh play , stop . user interface: mm . industrial designer: okay , so project manager: they 've got , i mean , they 've got standard sort of intuitive um industrial designer: so buttons . project manager: things that are always used . industrial designer: okay , just like that . user interface: project manager: that 's cool . user interface: yeah . project manager: i like it . industrial designer: okay . project manager: um . industrial designer: with the scroll-wheel or no ? user interface: yeah , what about the scroll wheel and speech recognition ? project manager: uh speech recognition , i think , so we need a microphone presumably . industrial designer: okay uh i could put the microphone here . project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: okay there 's the microphone . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: where should i put the microphone ? project manager: i mean ho h h wel are we sure that scroll wheel does give ease of use ? user interface: yeah , i 'm not sure . um i mean those ideas i saw were just for inspiration , i think . project manager: glad , we 're not doing this for real . user interface: um yeah , i can no i 'm not sure . industrial designer: okay , well we can do some user test with scroll-wheels , right ? user interface: i couldn yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: and uh i think if this this new software for the sound recognition is the microphone industrial designer: okay . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so should the microphone be just anywhere on it or project manager: i would put it sort of sub-centrally , so it 's yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: 'kay there 's the mic . project manager: so it can be sort of held and w user interface: that 's cool . industrial designer: project manager: we really need really gon na need to hold it , if it 's gon na be voice recognition . industrial designer: um n well we can whoops . project manager: oops . user interface: industrial designer: um . project manager: um . user interface: so let 's not use the whiteboard any more . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: marketing: industrial designer: um . marketing: project manager: upsidaisy . industrial designer: oops , sorry . okay . user interface: and uh so what else was there ? um the industrial designer: project manager: user interface: what about the glow-in-the-dark thing , the strip around it ? project manager: i s i still like it . user interface: are we just gon na leave that ? project manager: um but that 's me . user interface: you still like it . 'cause we 've got the uh technological innovation with the speech recognition system . industrial designer: right . project manager: yes , or maybe it 's just going a bit uh too far . i mean we are pushing it probably with funny fruit shapes . user interface: 'cause um it could yeah . project manager: um do n't wan na sort of overkill . user interface: especially with yellow . mm . i dunno . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: 'cause i mean like uh if we i mean how good is the speech recognition thing ? do we want to go for buttons at all , do we want to just have a device that maybe sits and pretends it 's a fruit ? user interface: then you put it in the fruit bowl ? industrial designer: they can work from a project manager: yeah , you know , and then you just tal industrial designer: you do n't have to hold it . project manager: i mean like everybody 's got fruit bowl in front of the telly . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i it could even encourage healthier habits for television watchers , project manager: um . industrial designer: you know they have uh fruits all round them . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . make them make them think of fruit , yeah . industrial designer: now just make sure they do n't eat the remote . marketing: yeah . project manager: i mean uh some uh i user interface: yeah , do we need buttons ? project manager: l like think of a fruit that could sit sort of independently on its own like uh , i dunno , an apple . user interface: mm . project manager: then it 's just apple so sort of industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh , yellow apples though hmm . user interface: i quite like the shape . i quite like the design of that , uh 'cause that could sit on its own and it 's quite got a quite steady base . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . okay , yeah , that 's good . industrial designer: okay . but yeah project manager: groovy . user interface: um project manager: user interface: and as we say we n we do n't wan na be too ridiculous with the fruit things you know . project manager: yeah , . industrial designer: but yeah , about the speech thing , it does n't have to be hand held or close . user interface: industrial designer: it can sit at a distance and pick it up still . project manager: yeah . so i mean like you could actually user interface: okay . marketing: or we can project manager: yeah , gives you the options . marketing: we can do one thing , we can just have a remote control and casings of different different shapes , different fruit shapes in such a way that a any casing can be could be fit into this mobile general piece . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so whatever people want , like if somebody want it in banana shape , we will put that casing onto that mobile phone , okay , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so a selection of casings . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: it will look l uh yeah . in that w project manager: it kind of fi it fits with f fits with marketing um user interface: yeah , 'cause you said about disposable , marketing: s s sorry ? user interface: did n't you ? you said about disposable earli people want disposable things marketing: uh like if this is a like if this is a mobile phone uh we will design casing in such a way like half of , we need not to have a full cover , we will just have a half of cover , project manager: user interface: so we could do that , like have a choice . yeah . marketing: okay ? if somebody wants it i in banana shape , we will fit banana shape casing onto that , so it will give a banana shape look . project manager: like like mobiles , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: if somebody wanted in apple shape we will design that , we will put we will put apple shape casing on that . it will give apple shape look . so in that way you can have any , that means whatever you want , user interface: okay . project manager: user interface: okay . marketing: without uh yeah . user interface: we still need the buttons in the same places thought , marketing: yeah , button will be on the upper side , buttons will be the on the upper side . user interface: do n't we ? project manager: you can standardise those , i mean . user interface: marketing: yeah , buttons will be on the upper side , lower side we will just put the casing , user interface: oh , that 's the other side . oh , okay . marketing: so half of that will be look the user interface: oh , half a fruit . oh , okay , okay . marketing: yeah , not not the upper side . so from lower you can , it means while you are holding of from this side you c you can have banana look or apple look , whatever . user interface: okay , okay . marketing: so in that way we need not to d have different different shape mobiles everything , we will just design casings fruit shape . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: and project manager: i think tho i think if you 're gon na have a facia then you 'd want to have it so that it does go over the buttons , user interface: okay . project manager: 'cause when if you think about it if they 're wanting it , 'cause they want to look at it , if they 're using it , and what they want to look at is facing away from them . it does n't really user interface: mm mm . project manager: you know 'cause that 'd be in the palm of their hand and they would n't be able to see it , user interface: yeah . project manager: unless you have sort of you got the buttons options on one side , and you get the facia on the other side with a microphone so that you can place it face down . and you 've got the facia , and you can just talk at the user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: maybe . industrial designer: okay , um so marketing: project manager: so you 've narrowed it down to half a dozen options . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: industrial designer: s i guess we decided on material , right ? so that that spongy latex rubber everything feel , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and the colours we got down , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and the shape , maybe we 'll just make it kinda mix and match type of shape or project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . well , um because well , i i 'm not sure if we should go so far in the whole fruit thing , because i think we should maybe just take the inspiration from the fruit and uh because what project manager: okay , so we stick with what we 've got there . user interface: yeah , w i think wh wha would we 're trying to get to twenty five , thirty five year olds who want it quite trendy as well they said . they wanted something that looks fancy and i think maybe fruit could be a bit of a too much of a gimmick , but something ergonomically shaped and organic , like good to hold , based on fruits and natural things like that , project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: because al already we 're going a bit gaudy with the yellow , you know . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: i mean we could make it nice pale yellow . project manager: well , it 's kind of got ta be our company 's yellow . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . project manager: so again i mean like we could have , uh i mean , we could quite easily have the the main body be a different user interface: okay . yeah . project manager: colour , but have user interface: maybe we could have that pale yellow and then an outside bit bright yellow with , you said , the logan the slogan . project manager: kinda going round , yeah . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um i mean e even if user interface: because project manager: i mean not necessarily that the um the whole body has to be of the company colour , so you know um blue and yellow tend to go to we well together . user interface: yeah . project manager: so you have the main body blue with the yellow logo and slogan running up one side of it kind of thing . user interface: yeah . yeah . uh-huh . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: w sort of industrial designer: great . um as for the energy source um , you know , almost every remote control uses just batteries , but we do n't have to be limited by that . we can use a hand-dynamo . um i do n't know what that means , we crank it ? project manager: uh it 's i think it 's basically the more you move i it , it 's got a wee thing inside that just kinda powers it . industrial designer: right , it 's like those watches that you c project manager: uh yeah . industrial designer: so , this might be an idea for something that people really wan na grab , you can shake it if it 's out of power . user interface: oh , a d a dynamo ? marketing: yeah , . project manager: yeah , i like that , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: user interface: yeah , like with those watches that you kind of twist . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah that 's quite cool . industrial designer: okay . so if it if it 's not working , i guess people 's natural reaction anyway is to just shake the thing . marketing: but project manager: okay . you shake it and scream at it . marketing: but but do you think that it will be a good idea to use dynamo , tha these type of cells ? project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , it is , yeah . marketing: because then people have to , well like if the cell is out of bat project manager: it does leave them with an obligation to marketing: yeah , to mo yeah . project manager: especially if they want to use it uh uh sp uh specifically as um voice activated . marketing: yeah , industrial designer: right . marketing: because most of the people project manager: then if it 's just sitting on the user interface: yeah , then they have to pick it up and then activate it and then yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , okay . industrial designer: okay . user interface: that 's true . project manager: right um what are the other options ? industrial designer: uh there 's solar power . um . marketing: uh , solar power will w also not be a good idea , because then they have to keep m their mobiles outside in solar energy , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: and the days when there is no sola sunlight project manager: i 'm i 'm with uh raj on that , industrial designer: okay , so probably just marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: i think , you know , marketing: what we w project manager: i 've got i 've got no i 've got a north facing house , there 's not really ever sun coming in my window . user interface: marketing: yeah . i think we should a rechargeable battery will be a good idea . user interface: but w like just normal light ? project manager: oh that 's true . marketing: they can they can recharge it . project manager: i mean i w i w uh user interface: project manager: that idea that i thought um just on the basis of like ridding them of batteries and that kind of bother industrial designer: mm . project manager: is having a , user interface: and we 're a very environmentally friendly company , are n't we as well ? project manager: yeah , marketing: yeah . project manager: having a rechargeable stand , so that not only it doubles as a stand , but um for using it as uh recharging it , but also for using it as sound recognition . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: 'kay . user interface: like like a hand like one of those portable phones kind of thing . marketing: yeah , that 's yeah , exactly . project manager: yeah that kind of thing . industrial designer: okay . so uh a rechargeable battery . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . um the user interface , the buttons , i guess we talked about this already . project manager: rechargeable . user interface: mm . industrial designer: um . project manager: . what 's chip on print ? what 's industrial designer: hmm ? project manager: sorry , never mind . industrial designer: uh th the uh the electronics um , basically the more features we add um oops , this one . so the more features we add the fancier chips we need to buy and put in , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: which adds to the cost as you can expect . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um . but uh i think we can keep it all under budget . so uh yes , so the speech thing you said our our techno our research and development department came up with some break-through . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so just in time . project manager: yeah , and if we if we 're just having buttons and the speech then we 're getting our cheapest option of chipping . user interface: just in time . industrial designer: right , right . project manager: that 's good . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: uh woah . industrial designer: and keeping the lcd screen out . project manager: okay , we 're we 're kind of uh we 're kind of um excuse m i 've just deleted that whole thing . um we 're kind of running out of time , so if you could uh . was that you ? industrial designer: huh ? project manager: um that was your bit 's covered , industrial designer: oh yeah that was that was it . project manager: i just dele i just accidentally deleted what i was supposed to say next . industrial designer: marketing: uh excuse me , bri project manager: um , yeah . industrial designer: so control f_ eight , right ? project manager: oh , yeah . user interface: yeah , mine seems to have turned off . project manager: and i just touch the pad . user interface: i ca n't do anything . marketing: you just touch the pad , yeah . user interface: no . marketing: no ? project manager: it 's actually shut down . user interface: it 's on , but there 's nothing on the screen . project manager: okay , um now what we have industrial designer: try uh flipping the screen down . project manager: uh our next meeting 's in half an hour industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: and what i would like you guys to do is work on giving me a model in clay . industrial designer: oh , user interface: industrial designer: i get to do it , too . project manager: yeah . it 's you guys . yeah . industrial designer: oh neat . user interface: cool . project manager: so um , you know i mean , luckily we chose a nice simple shape . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah . mm . project manager: um and further instructions will be sent by your personal coaches . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . save everything to the shared documents , is that right ? marketing: that 's great . project manager: uh yeah , i hope i can recover this , 'cause i 've accidentally deleted it . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: which does n't really help me much . user interface: i think , i 've saved mine already . project manager: yeah , can you save that uh send that last one again , please , raj , marketing: yeah . project manager: as i still ca n't find it on the marketing: uh it was under a different name . project manager: marketing: i will show you , in shared documents . project manager: okay . marketing: uh working components . oh , you did n't get that . i will send new . project manager: no . okay , thank you . marketing: uh i 'll put it in shared documents , again . project manager: um yeah , project , project documents . marketing: project documents , sorry , i put it in the shared documents . project manager: uh right , marketing: uh yeah . project manager: that 's that 's the that it goes there automatically if you put it in project documents . project documents is on the um desktop . marketing: right , that 's great . but i cou ca n't open that , because it w asks uh for some username or password . industrial designer: oh . project manager: really ? marketing: i 'll show you . industrial designer: uh these lapel mics are trouble . marketing: ts project manager: oh right , i think um marketing: sorry . project manager: hold on . marketing: uh . project manager: yeah , i do n't know if y it it just ca it just came up on my um on my agenda . s um presumably there 's clay somewhere . um . four . marketing: yeah , that 's great . project manager: whoops . light , light , please . light . right , there you go . marketing: yeah , th thank you . project manager: yeah , quite . and we 're using this our basic chip set , so it 's all good . marketing: oh sorry . industrial designer: are we done with our meeting ? marketing: uh excuse me , brian . project manager: um i think we 're almost done , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: you have to keep your pen separate , because i used your pen . project manager: oh oops . marketing: s project manager: sorry man . uh okay , still did n't manage to get down all the last bits so we had rechargeable and uh . apples . mm-mm-mm-mm-mm . 'kay , so we came up with that , that 's okay . what 's supplements ? supplements . uh uh . see . user interface: cool . fun . project manager: i shoulda something like that . if i kn see i i knew that . i shoulda sort of engineered it so we k ended up making a diffi difficult shape . user interface: marketing: hmm . project manager: just for cruelty . marketing: hmm . user interface: yeah . star fruit . project manager: i wonder if they mean like literally make it , sort of buttons and everything . marketing: so sh should should we leave now , brian ? user interface: no . oh yeah , we can do buttons . marketing: or we are going to discuss something ? project manager: um . uh no , i think that 's us our discussion over unless anybody 's got questions or confusions , marketing: user interface: no i 'm good . project manager: 'cause i 'm confused . marketing: yeah . project manager: huh ? user interface: okay . marketing: excuse me . project manager: um uh we 'll probably get questionnaire in a minute , it 's a user interface: mm . project manager: marketing: sorry . thank you . yeah . project manager: there we go . warning , finish meeting now . marketing: so . project manager: i rounded it up far too fast . um . where are we going ? my documents , that 's not what i want . my project documents . there we go .

unlike the last meeting , the team further discussed the details about the features they wanted on their new remote controls this time . first , they unanimously agreed that their design shall be the combination of beauty and fashion . second , after looking at all the other designs existing in the market now , they drew a conclusion that the new remotes would be standardly shaped and children-friendly . lastly , most of the time was devoted to the discussion about the details of the desired features : rechargeable battery , blue main body and yellow slogan , fruits based shapes and sponge latex rubber material .

summarize the discussion about the merits and demerits of the existing designs in the market . </s> project manager: um we are so the meeting will have about the same format as the last time . so switching over i 've just left uh my first two screens . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: um mailed you the minutes of the last meeting uh just to save time . user interface: okay . cool . project manager: um and is there any questions you have that arised from last meeting that are particularly bothering you ? n user interface: mm um . no , i do n't think so . project manager: no ? okay , cool . industrial designer: no . project manager: then we shall start with a presentation from raj . marketing: yeah . hi , me raj , again . uh in this meeting i i 'm going to discuss about the trend watching , uh how these trends is going to affect our market potential and how important is this . so we have to look on this . first of all methodology . the met methodology to find out the trend was incl uh was done in a way we have done a rec not only a recent remote control market survey , but we also considered the latest fre fashion trends of the market , because we think that this is also a factor which will affect our sales and profit . so what are our findings ? in our uh in our findings we have seen that when we did our remote control market survey we found that uh people l uh people do have preference for tho fancy mobi uh f remote controls which look and feel very good , rather than having a functional look and feel uh good . so this sh this clearly indicates their preference for the design their outlook of the remote controls . so we should take into uh we should consider this factor as the most important factor , because this factor is twice as important , the second factor which is further ti twice the as important as the sec as uh the third factor . so this factor becomes the most important factor in our surv uh uh in our mark uh means in take in designing our rem uh remote controls . user interface: the last one is the most important one , is it ? marketing: no the first one is the user interface: oh , sorry . marketing: uh the outlook of the mobile , the it should have a fancy outlook , project manager: user interface: okay . marketing: the fancy design uh rather than just having a functional look and feel good , it should have a fancy look and foo feel good . user interface: okay . marketing: the second most important aspect is that remote control should be a technologically uh innovative . we must have some technological advancement in the remote control tha rather than just putting it as it is as the other remo uh remote controls are . so it uh should be technologically innovative like glow-in-the-dark or speech recognition , something like that . project manager: marketing: so that indicates our technological advancement . and the third most important aspect in the ta to take into consideration is that it should be easy to use , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: like it should n't be too much co complicated , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: there should n't be too many buttons on this mobi uh remote control , it should n't be too complicated uh like this way . and it should be uh and customers should be provided with manuals that is easy to understand in their local language , something . so that they could know how to use these remote controls . when we did uh f fashions uh , recent fashion uh our recent fashion update shows that user interface: sorry . industrial designer: marketing: ah yeah ? user interface: i was just reading fruit and vegetables . project manager: user interface: hard to know how we are going to incorporate that . marketing: y yeah uh yeah , we have to , because uh d you can see how people have related their clothes , shoes , and everything with fruits and vegetables , project manager: user interface: marketing: because the g world is now changing it 's trend towards organic , becoming more and more organic , user interface: okay . yeah . industrial designer: we should make a big sponge lemon , marketing: becoming industrial designer: and then it 'd be it would be yellow . marketing: yeah . project manager: user interface: yeah . industrial designer: it 's marketing: so user interface: th that 's very good . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . so something like that we we should do . user interface: glow-in-the-dark . okay . marketing: and people uh the f feel of the material is expected to be spongy rather than just having a plastic look , hard look . industrial designer: mm . user interface: well , that 's good . marketing: yeah . yeah . user interface: that 's what we kind of predicted anyway . marketing: so so that they could play with it while handi uh while handling it . so that should also be taken into consideration . user interface: okay . okay . marketing: so these are my views . user interface: okay . marketing: so user interface: okay , the spongy , not real spongy , you can marketing: no it ca y a user interface: do you think like rubber would be good or does it really want to be like gel kind of stuff ? marketing: the rubber which is good for health and which is quite disposable that we can take into co user interface: okay . quite disposable . marketing: yeah . 'cause we it should n't be have any harm to the environment also , user interface: okay . marketing: because our company is very well for taking all these concerns into consideration , project manager: alright , okay . user interface: oh okay . marketing: so we do n't want to have any harm to the society , user interface: uh-huh . okay . marketing: so project manager: fashion . user interface: project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: cool . marketing: so that 's all . project manager: fruit and veg , well there you go . user interface: project manager: just what i think of when i think of a remote control . user interface: mm . industrial designer: user interface: a remote control ? yeah . marketing: user interface: and were there any factors that were n't important in the survey , that they said we do n't want ? marketing: s uh we did n't find out any such point . user interface: or was it just okay . marketing: uh yes , there could be , but we could n't find out any , so project manager: mm-mm-mm-mm . user interface: cool . project manager: mm-mm-mm-mm-mm . user interface: f_ , what is it ? um . project manager: function f_ eight . user interface: yeah . project manager: hmm . user interface: okay . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: oh no , . user interface: no signal . is that ? industrial designer: no , it 's got it 's got it . marketing: yeah , uh yeah , uh yeah . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: excuse me . user interface: okay , and then f_ five , right ? project manager: uh , yeah . user interface: okay . um okay , so the interface concept um . yeah . the interface specification , what people um how they interact with it basically , i think . um so the method , we looked at existing designs , what are the what 's good about them , what 's bad about them , um i looked at their flaws , so we 're going to look at their flaws , everything . um and what the survey told us and what we think would be good , so a bit of imagination . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: uh the findings , i 've got some pictures to show you as well . project manager: either . industrial designer: marketing: hmm . user interface: yeah . okay , so most remote controls use graphical interface , where you um have got s buttons and you point it rather than having the output as a a stream of text or something . project manager: uh okay . user interface: um and we also found that there 's inconsistent layout , which makes it confusing . so i think for our remote control there is some inconsistency already in ec existing in between remote controls , but i think standard kind of um shape and uh play and those kind of but buttons like the the top right for on and off or something , project manager: right , okay . yeah . user interface: i think , people find that important , 'cause then it 's easy to use . project manager: user interface: and we 've got some pictures of some uh new remote controls to show you . project manager: excellent . user interface: do i press escape f_ five ? or just project manager: uh no just escape should uh user interface: escape , okay . um , oh i still have n't got my glasses on . yeah , okay . so these are the some of the pictures of existing ones . project manager: industrial designer: wow . user interface: i 'll just walk you through them . this one is a voice recognition . project manager: 'kay . user interface: and that 's the kind of idea we 're going for . project manager: looks pretty complicated . user interface: there 's um an lcd thing , which we thought could i thought could get a bit confusing and a bit expensive as well for us . project manager: right , okay . user interface: this one is got a kind of scroll like a mouse , project manager: mm-hmm , like the middle button . user interface: which yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: um and but i 'm not exactly sure how you 'd use that , industrial designer: project manager: ah it 's kinda like scrolling user interface: like would the computer come project manager: uh right , well , if i s if i 'm thinking of the right one , i 've got the same thing in front of my monitor , you scroll it and the when you reach the sort of um menu item that you require , you press the middle of the scroll . user interface: uh-huh , that 's like the lcd one , project manager: right , okay . user interface: is it ? but the one below that has got like a little scroll function on the side . but i presume that the functions must come up on the tv screen . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , presumably . user interface: i think that 's what that is . so these are just a few ideas . again that 's just quite boring shape , grey , looks quite space-agey , but too many buttons , i think on that one . industrial designer: uh it looks threatening . project manager: yeah , looks like uh looks like something out of a jet . user interface: yeah , it does look kind of dangerous . industrial designer: it looks like yeah . marketing: hmm . user interface: um this one i thought was really cool . it 's w it 's got the programmability function that we talked about . industrial designer: user interface: you can put it in there , it 's for your kids , and it 's quite an organic shape and the little circle around there is pretty cool . project manager: okay . user interface: and that 's really easy to use , bright , so i like this one lot for our design . i think something like that would be good . industrial designer: wow . project manager: yeah , i m i mean the one thing i think about about these ones is um these kl uh secured areas um , i 've seen a lot of them with the the cover missing . user interface: of course yellow . project manager: so like have it hinge rather than sort of clip on or whatever . user interface: right , yeah . yeah , that 's true . yeah . um so maybe that could be built into one of the things and it comes up on the tv or something . and this one , the over-sized one , i do n't know about you , but i think it 's a bit too gimmicky . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: user interface: i do n't think that will sell very well . project manager: i mean is that not sort of to assist the blind or something , is it ? user interface: i guess so . i do n't know . industrial designer: then d blind do n't watch tv . project manager: strange . user interface: i think that 's a bit yeah exactly . project manager: no they do , they do . industrial designer: they do ? project manager: they listen to it . yeah . user interface: yeah . and um this one is just pointing out . i like some of these things um the the raised symbols and everything , but pointing out um that this one the volume it is kind of pressing down , but it would actually go up , because of the shape . project manager: right , okay . user interface: so that could that 's a bit confusing . um but the buttons on this i think are it 's just showing you how you can have different different um buttons . they do n't have to be all the same . so that 's quite cool . um . project manager: 'kay but people tend to recognise certain shapes to do certain things anyway , do n't they ? user interface: yeah , exactly . um f_ five . yes . so there are some of the findings . so we need to combine those ones um industrial designer: user interface: and i 've just got an e-mail from our technical department saying that they have broken through with some new speech recognition software that you can program in . project manager: brilliant . that 's handy . user interface: um yeah it is , just in time , very handy . um so i think maybe incorporating that in our design would be good . project manager: okay . user interface: it 's you program it like you say , record , um and then , play , and then , record , play machine , and stuff like that , so that 's and it 's much yeah . so that 's quite cool . uh personal preferences just some imagination , the raised symbols i thought were good , the lcd , it does look smart , but i think maybe for our budget , do you think that would be a bit too expensive to have the industrial designer: the lcd user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and the other stuff uh , i think . user interface: and the speech recognition , 'cause i think we 're definitely going for the speech recognition , marketing: but in our market survey we have seen that people are willing to pay more , user interface: are we ? marketing: but they want the quality , they want f fancy look , they want some new design , something new . user interface: uh-huh . project manager: okay . marketing: uh yeah . user interface: uh-huh . but our budget , we 've project manager: it 's still it 's still got to get within our twelve fifty , you know . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so even if we increase our cost little bit , within uh some limits , and we give something new technological advancement as well as new design with fancy outlook , i think we will meet the requirements and we will be able to have a good sales in the market . user interface: uh-huh . okay . project manager: okay . user interface: i 'm not sure if the if for twenty five euros uh per uh twelve euros fifty m manufacturing cost , . industrial designer: ben bana project manager: yeah . i ca n't see tha although , th i mean to be to be sure they have got i mean they are going crazy with the lcd technology now , industrial designer: user interface: the lcd . project manager: so that you 've got your lcd tvs and everything so maybe the small industrial designer: project manager: but i mean like i i the black and white , i guess , it just does n't look funky enough . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: um but , i mean , like even mobile phones or whatever have now have colour lcd screens , user interface: no . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: w i ju i mean user interface: yeah . s project manager: i would n't know about the costs of them . user interface: uh-huh . industrial designer: but uh price price not withstanding um , is it too complicated , is it gon na be too much just overload ? marketing: and the project manager: twelve fifty . marketing: uh i it will be easy because there will be , on lcd s screen , there will be different frent icons , they can just click ok okay , whatever they wa project manager: possibly . user interface: yeah , that 's the thing , because industrial designer: but but the thing is when you use a remote control , you never look at it , right ? you 're looking at the tv project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and and it 's uh project manager: yeah . user interface: that 's true , yeah . industrial designer: it just seems kind of like a a needless th user interface: and one of the survey findings was that they want it easy to use , so i think i 'm not sure about the lcd . project manager: right . user interface: it 's a it 's great , it 's a good idea , but for our budget and for the thing we 're trying to go for eas easy to use , it 's not the thing we should go for , i think . child-friendly , i thought this was good , as you pointed out the um the bit , it often goes missing especially with children , but it 's a good shape and the organic is kind of we could make a vegetabley kind of round shape , i think . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so which vegetable ? project manager: well i mean we could make a user interface: yeah , i know , carrot . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: well , si since we 're going for the uh the k the sort of company colours , i think your lemon was n't that far s industrial designer: the the lemon . well what are the options ? user interface: yeah . project manager: and if it does n't work you know , we 've just made a lemon . user interface: but we do n't want it to be yeah . um the child-friendly , yeah . easy to use , it seems quite easy to use . i like the d the different shapes of the buttons and stuff . project manager: mm-hmm . i like i like the colourful buttons as well . user interface: i think that 's a good idea to go for . yeah . and the mouse one , i thought it was a good idea , because people use mo mice mouses now with the scrolling thing . um . project manager: yeah . i mean we are marketing to sort of twenty five to thirty five , user interface: yeah . project manager: so most people will have come in contact with that kind of use . user interface: s yeah . so they 'd be able to use that um , as i said i think i i 'd presume it would come up on the screen . project manager: yeah . user interface: um so there you go . project manager: and that means tha that means you get to bump that bit to the tv maker , so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: oh . user interface: so that 's um the user interface project manager: 'kay . user interface: design . project manager: industrial designer: okay . user interface: so okay , i 'll take this out now then . industrial designer: um so project manager: user interface: there you go . industrial designer: i guess there are a lot of options that we 're gon na have to choose from among , project manager: yeah , looks like it . industrial designer: and i 'll i 'll give you the uh , i guess , technical considerations for those . user interface: mm . project manager: uh user interface: industrial designer: and i 'm gon na use the whiteboard , just 'cause we have n't used it . project manager: yeah , i was just thinking the self same thing . user interface: industrial designer: right . so , the way i 'm gon na do this is uh we 're gon na take a look at some old remote controls , see how they work , uh reuse the the vital kind of um essential pieces of it , project manager: industrial designer: and then we 'll throw in our new innovations um and keep it all within budget . project manager: magic man . industrial designer: so uh yeah , looking inside a a very simple remote control . um this is what they sent me . 'kay . here 's uh the competition , i suppose . project manager: industrial designer: um you open it up , there 's a circuit board inside , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and there 's a a chip , a processor , the t_a_ one one eight three five , which um receives input from the buttons , and ch project manager: so this is a standard off the shelf kind of a chip , is it ? industrial designer: right , it 's very they 're very cheap remote . this remote costs nothing , you know . um so that takes a signals from the buttons and translates it into a sequence of pulses that it then sends to the to the amplifier , which is made of some transistors and amplifiers , op-amps , and then that gets sent to the uh to the l_e_d_ light , which i can kinda see is that little red light bulb at the end , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and that sends out the infrared uh light signal to the television . project manager: right . industrial designer: oh here it is . um so this is kind of the the bear essentials that we need to have in our remote control , because it it defines the uh project manager: okay . so can we make them to pretty much any size we like or is there a minimum or ? industrial designer: r um no , i mean this is a very old one , so now with the new technology this is a a minimally small and cheap thing to make . project manager: they got ta be almost a key-ring . industrial designer: right . so this is what we need to have for certain . project manager: okay . industrial designer: um . so you know , as we said , we got the outer casing , which we have to decide , you know , what 's it gon na be , um the board we have to use basically uh the same set-up , processor , um we 'll probably use the more advanced processor than they had , amplifier and transmitter are all standard . um so for the casing , uh this an e-mail i got from our manufacturing team uh , you know , we have a bunch of options from wood , titanium , rubber , plastic , whatnot , um latex , double-curved , curved . so lots of choices , user interface: project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: what do we think ? uh or sponge , i guess , is n't on there , right . project manager: well . user interface: mm . i 'm not sure about the sponge . industrial designer: organic sponge . project manager: well , i mean like la latex has a kinda spongy feeling to it , does n't it . industrial designer: uh yeah , it 's very elasticy for sure . project manager: um yeah . and that would k also give it kinda durability user interface: yeah . project manager: and user interface: yeah . industrial designer: um . project manager: and ther that 's also f sorta relatively cheap to cast . industrial designer: yeah so project manager: um so maybe s uh a sort of uh plastic initial plastic with a a latex kinda sheath ? industrial designer: okay so , here are a a plastic , uh latex user interface: i like the rubber , the stress balls , i think , project manager: oh right , okay . user interface: you know , that could be a bit of a gimmick like it 's good to hold and industrial designer: oh right . project manager: i do n't know what that stuff is . industrial designer: so something with give to it . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . and user interface: and that might be quite durable and easy to chuck around . industrial designer: and the colour is yellow , right ? user interface: yeah , project manager: or at least incorporating , yeah . user interface: y yellow incorporated , yeah . industrial designer: yellow , okay . um . project manager: i mean i forgot i we 're sort of uh i do n't know what other standard silver kind of user interface: i think project manager: other parts or uh user interface: mm . yeah , the buttons w like , 'cause there 's gon na be the the cover the the rubber or the plastic casing and then the buttons in probably two different colours project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm ' kay . user interface: or i if we 're having buttons actually , industrial designer: so yellow for the body , user interface: i don project manager: um . industrial designer: and then what colour for the buttons ? project manager: um i quite like the multi-coloured buttons myself . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so multi-coloured buttons . user interface: you do have ones like um play could be green or on and off is red , and stuff like that , yeah . industrial designer: project manager: yeah or yeah a limit uh maybe even just a limited multi-colour so it it does n't look too childish , perhaps . user interface: makes it easy to use . yeah , that 's true , because that blue one did look quite hardish . industrial designer: okay . project manager: yeah . although i mean this uh uh also comes to shape as well . i mean if we are gon na make it a novel i mean double-curved sounds good to me if we 're talking about sorta ergonomic and easy use , industrial designer: okay . user interface: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: a bit comfier , you know . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm 'kay so the shape we wan na go um how exactly ? maybe double user interface: like uh an hour glass kind of figure , is that what you 're thinking of , project manager: yeah it 's uh , yeah , that that 'd be that 's sort of comfortable to hold , easy to hold so you do n't drop it . user interface: or just like a it 's not industrial designer: what about a banana ? user interface: yeah . project manager: user interface: we could make novelty remote controls . industrial designer: yeah ? okay , like we could have a big banana shaped remote control , project manager: well , yeah , i mean like industrial designer: 'cause it 's yellow fruit , user interface: industrial designer: right ? project manager: yeah , yeah . mm and a lemon might be a little hard to grip . yeah . user interface: yeah . but then how would you point it ? marketing: ah industrial designer: marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . user interface: how would you point it ? industrial designer: oh i it does n't matter which end you point , i guess . user interface: what industrial designer: we could have a little l_e_d_s on each end . marketing: yeah , i appreciate this idea , project manager: they only cost pennies . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: because then this this will help us in our advertisement also project manager: marketing: and we can relate with fruits and vegetables , the people 's choices . that what our data shows that , so this w this w user interface: yeah . project manager: huh ? user interface: y i 'm i 'm not sure about the banana idea . marketing: project manager: um . industrial designer: so a spongy banana re marketing: project manager: i mean that that th user interface: rubber banana . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: does user interface: okay . project manager: it does seem a bit uh again childish maybe . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay , okay . user interface: i think maybe just draw on the kind of fruit and vegetable shape . and what else did you say about fashions ? what was trendy ? marketing: uh the fashion trend shows that fruits and vegetables , project manager: s industrial designer: see marketing: like people uh now project manager: and sponginess . industrial designer: so maybe an an unidentifiable fruit or fiable fruit or vegetable user interface: and spongy , yeah . marketing: spongy . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: like so it would have a stem perhaps user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and a user interface: maybe , yeah . industrial designer: maybe a it 'd be s axially symmetric . project manager: huh . user interface: like what 's what 's that , i do n't even know the name of it , some kind of , you know where it 's like looks like a little snowman kind of thing . i do n't know the name of that . industrial designer: so it 'd look like this kinda . user interface: yeah , that 's what i was thinking . industrial designer: like a gourd almost , or a squash of some sort ? project manager: uh . user interface: yeah , maybe that 's what they are . project manager: user interface: 'cause that you can hold it in like the bottom bit industrial designer: yeah , user interface: and industrial designer: and it has a a clear top and bottom so y so you could say , you know , it transmits from this end . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , why the hell not . let 's that 'll make us fifty million euros . user interface: i do n't know . what do you guy what do you think ? industrial designer: project manager: um . well , i guess it 's kind of dra uh you do n't necessarily have to have it sort of clearly identified as a fruit just to have that kind of fruitish shape , user interface: no . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah ? user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , then only we can relate it with something . project manager: yeah , we can relate it by advertising or marketing: yeah . exactly . industrial designer: okay , so double-curved , single-curved , what do we feel ? project manager: yeah . marketing: or we can do something , we can design two three shapes and we can have a public survey , let the public choose what they want . user interface: uh-huh . industrial designer: okay . project manager: there 's a good man . there 's a good idea . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay um , i guess , since you 're the marketing guy . marketing: yeah , sure . i will be happy to do that . project manager: industrial designer: we 'll uh okay , we could do that . um . user interface: okay . and buttons would , did we say ? uh different shapes of buttons ? industrial designer: project manager: um i l i su i mean for the specific functions , you know , up and down , uh play , stop . user interface: mm . industrial designer: okay , so project manager: they 've got , i mean , they 've got standard sort of intuitive um industrial designer: so buttons . project manager: things that are always used . industrial designer: okay , just like that . user interface: project manager: that 's cool . user interface: yeah . project manager: i like it . industrial designer: okay . project manager: um . industrial designer: with the scroll-wheel or no ? user interface: yeah , what about the scroll wheel and speech recognition ? project manager: uh speech recognition , i think , so we need a microphone presumably . industrial designer: okay uh i could put the microphone here . project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: okay there 's the microphone . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: where should i put the microphone ? project manager: i mean ho h h wel are we sure that scroll wheel does give ease of use ? user interface: yeah , i 'm not sure . um i mean those ideas i saw were just for inspiration , i think . project manager: glad , we 're not doing this for real . user interface: um yeah , i can no i 'm not sure . industrial designer: okay , well we can do some user test with scroll-wheels , right ? user interface: i couldn yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: and uh i think if this this new software for the sound recognition is the microphone industrial designer: okay . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so should the microphone be just anywhere on it or project manager: i would put it sort of sub-centrally , so it 's yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: 'kay there 's the mic . project manager: so it can be sort of held and w user interface: that 's cool . industrial designer: project manager: we really need really gon na need to hold it , if it 's gon na be voice recognition . industrial designer: um n well we can whoops . project manager: oops . user interface: industrial designer: um . project manager: um . user interface: so let 's not use the whiteboard any more . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: marketing: industrial designer: um . marketing: project manager: upsidaisy . industrial designer: oops , sorry . okay . user interface: and uh so what else was there ? um the industrial designer: project manager: user interface: what about the glow-in-the-dark thing , the strip around it ? project manager: i s i still like it . user interface: are we just gon na leave that ? project manager: um but that 's me . user interface: you still like it . 'cause we 've got the uh technological innovation with the speech recognition system . industrial designer: right . project manager: yes , or maybe it 's just going a bit uh too far . i mean we are pushing it probably with funny fruit shapes . user interface: 'cause um it could yeah . project manager: um do n't wan na sort of overkill . user interface: especially with yellow . mm . i dunno . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: 'cause i mean like uh if we i mean how good is the speech recognition thing ? do we want to go for buttons at all , do we want to just have a device that maybe sits and pretends it 's a fruit ? user interface: then you put it in the fruit bowl ? industrial designer: they can work from a project manager: yeah , you know , and then you just tal industrial designer: you do n't have to hold it . project manager: i mean like everybody 's got fruit bowl in front of the telly . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i it could even encourage healthier habits for television watchers , project manager: um . industrial designer: you know they have uh fruits all round them . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . make them make them think of fruit , yeah . industrial designer: now just make sure they do n't eat the remote . marketing: yeah . project manager: i mean uh some uh i user interface: yeah , do we need buttons ? project manager: l like think of a fruit that could sit sort of independently on its own like uh , i dunno , an apple . user interface: mm . project manager: then it 's just apple so sort of industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh , yellow apples though hmm . user interface: i quite like the shape . i quite like the design of that , uh 'cause that could sit on its own and it 's quite got a quite steady base . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . okay , yeah , that 's good . industrial designer: okay . but yeah project manager: groovy . user interface: um project manager: user interface: and as we say we n we do n't wan na be too ridiculous with the fruit things you know . project manager: yeah , . industrial designer: but yeah , about the speech thing , it does n't have to be hand held or close . user interface: industrial designer: it can sit at a distance and pick it up still . project manager: yeah . so i mean like you could actually user interface: okay . marketing: or we can project manager: yeah , gives you the options . marketing: we can do one thing , we can just have a remote control and casings of different different shapes , different fruit shapes in such a way that a any casing can be could be fit into this mobile general piece . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so whatever people want , like if somebody want it in banana shape , we will put that casing onto that mobile phone , okay , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so a selection of casings . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: it will look l uh yeah . in that w project manager: it kind of fi it fits with f fits with marketing um user interface: yeah , 'cause you said about disposable , marketing: s s sorry ? user interface: did n't you ? you said about disposable earli people want disposable things marketing: uh like if this is a like if this is a mobile phone uh we will design casing in such a way like half of , we need not to have a full cover , we will just have a half of cover , project manager: user interface: so we could do that , like have a choice . yeah . marketing: okay ? if somebody wants it i in banana shape , we will fit banana shape casing onto that , so it will give a banana shape look . project manager: like like mobiles , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: if somebody wanted in apple shape we will design that , we will put we will put apple shape casing on that . it will give apple shape look . so in that way you can have any , that means whatever you want , user interface: okay . project manager: user interface: okay . marketing: without uh yeah . user interface: we still need the buttons in the same places thought , marketing: yeah , button will be on the upper side , buttons will be the on the upper side . user interface: do n't we ? project manager: you can standardise those , i mean . user interface: marketing: yeah , buttons will be on the upper side , lower side we will just put the casing , user interface: oh , that 's the other side . oh , okay . marketing: so half of that will be look the user interface: oh , half a fruit . oh , okay , okay . marketing: yeah , not not the upper side . so from lower you can , it means while you are holding of from this side you c you can have banana look or apple look , whatever . user interface: okay , okay . marketing: so in that way we need not to d have different different shape mobiles everything , we will just design casings fruit shape . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: and project manager: i think tho i think if you 're gon na have a facia then you 'd want to have it so that it does go over the buttons , user interface: okay . project manager: 'cause when if you think about it if they 're wanting it , 'cause they want to look at it , if they 're using it , and what they want to look at is facing away from them . it does n't really user interface: mm mm . project manager: you know 'cause that 'd be in the palm of their hand and they would n't be able to see it , user interface: yeah . project manager: unless you have sort of you got the buttons options on one side , and you get the facia on the other side with a microphone so that you can place it face down . and you 've got the facia , and you can just talk at the user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: maybe . industrial designer: okay , um so marketing: project manager: so you 've narrowed it down to half a dozen options . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: industrial designer: s i guess we decided on material , right ? so that that spongy latex rubber everything feel , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and the colours we got down , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and the shape , maybe we 'll just make it kinda mix and match type of shape or project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . well , um because well , i i 'm not sure if we should go so far in the whole fruit thing , because i think we should maybe just take the inspiration from the fruit and uh because what project manager: okay , so we stick with what we 've got there . user interface: yeah , w i think wh wha would we 're trying to get to twenty five , thirty five year olds who want it quite trendy as well they said . they wanted something that looks fancy and i think maybe fruit could be a bit of a too much of a gimmick , but something ergonomically shaped and organic , like good to hold , based on fruits and natural things like that , project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: because al already we 're going a bit gaudy with the yellow , you know . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: i mean we could make it nice pale yellow . project manager: well , it 's kind of got ta be our company 's yellow . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . project manager: so again i mean like we could have , uh i mean , we could quite easily have the the main body be a different user interface: okay . yeah . project manager: colour , but have user interface: maybe we could have that pale yellow and then an outside bit bright yellow with , you said , the logan the slogan . project manager: kinda going round , yeah . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um i mean e even if user interface: because project manager: i mean not necessarily that the um the whole body has to be of the company colour , so you know um blue and yellow tend to go to we well together . user interface: yeah . project manager: so you have the main body blue with the yellow logo and slogan running up one side of it kind of thing . user interface: yeah . yeah . uh-huh . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: w sort of industrial designer: great . um as for the energy source um , you know , almost every remote control uses just batteries , but we do n't have to be limited by that . we can use a hand-dynamo . um i do n't know what that means , we crank it ? project manager: uh it 's i think it 's basically the more you move i it , it 's got a wee thing inside that just kinda powers it . industrial designer: right , it 's like those watches that you c project manager: uh yeah . industrial designer: so , this might be an idea for something that people really wan na grab , you can shake it if it 's out of power . user interface: oh , a d a dynamo ? marketing: yeah , . project manager: yeah , i like that , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: user interface: yeah , like with those watches that you kind of twist . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah that 's quite cool . industrial designer: okay . so if it if it 's not working , i guess people 's natural reaction anyway is to just shake the thing . marketing: but project manager: okay . you shake it and scream at it . marketing: but but do you think that it will be a good idea to use dynamo , tha these type of cells ? project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , it is , yeah . marketing: because then people have to , well like if the cell is out of bat project manager: it does leave them with an obligation to marketing: yeah , to mo yeah . project manager: especially if they want to use it uh uh sp uh specifically as um voice activated . marketing: yeah , industrial designer: right . marketing: because most of the people project manager: then if it 's just sitting on the user interface: yeah , then they have to pick it up and then activate it and then yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , okay . industrial designer: okay . user interface: that 's true . project manager: right um what are the other options ? industrial designer: uh there 's solar power . um . marketing: uh , solar power will w also not be a good idea , because then they have to keep m their mobiles outside in solar energy , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: and the days when there is no sola sunlight project manager: i 'm i 'm with uh raj on that , industrial designer: okay , so probably just marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: i think , you know , marketing: what we w project manager: i 've got i 've got no i 've got a north facing house , there 's not really ever sun coming in my window . user interface: marketing: yeah . i think we should a rechargeable battery will be a good idea . user interface: but w like just normal light ? project manager: oh that 's true . marketing: they can they can recharge it . project manager: i mean i w i w uh user interface: project manager: that idea that i thought um just on the basis of like ridding them of batteries and that kind of bother industrial designer: mm . project manager: is having a , user interface: and we 're a very environmentally friendly company , are n't we as well ? project manager: yeah , marketing: yeah . project manager: having a rechargeable stand , so that not only it doubles as a stand , but um for using it as uh recharging it , but also for using it as sound recognition . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: 'kay . user interface: like like a hand like one of those portable phones kind of thing . marketing: yeah , that 's yeah , exactly . project manager: yeah that kind of thing . industrial designer: okay . so uh a rechargeable battery . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . um the user interface , the buttons , i guess we talked about this already . project manager: rechargeable . user interface: mm . industrial designer: um . project manager: . what 's chip on print ? what 's industrial designer: hmm ? project manager: sorry , never mind . industrial designer: uh th the uh the electronics um , basically the more features we add um oops , this one . so the more features we add the fancier chips we need to buy and put in , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: which adds to the cost as you can expect . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um . but uh i think we can keep it all under budget . so uh yes , so the speech thing you said our our techno our research and development department came up with some break-through . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so just in time . project manager: yeah , and if we if we 're just having buttons and the speech then we 're getting our cheapest option of chipping . user interface: just in time . industrial designer: right , right . project manager: that 's good . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: uh woah . industrial designer: and keeping the lcd screen out . project manager: okay , we 're we 're kind of uh we 're kind of um excuse m i 've just deleted that whole thing . um we 're kind of running out of time , so if you could uh . was that you ? industrial designer: huh ? project manager: um that was your bit 's covered , industrial designer: oh yeah that was that was it . project manager: i just dele i just accidentally deleted what i was supposed to say next . industrial designer: marketing: uh excuse me , bri project manager: um , yeah . industrial designer: so control f_ eight , right ? project manager: oh , yeah . user interface: yeah , mine seems to have turned off . project manager: and i just touch the pad . user interface: i ca n't do anything . marketing: you just touch the pad , yeah . user interface: no . marketing: no ? project manager: it 's actually shut down . user interface: it 's on , but there 's nothing on the screen . project manager: okay , um now what we have industrial designer: try uh flipping the screen down . project manager: uh our next meeting 's in half an hour industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: and what i would like you guys to do is work on giving me a model in clay . industrial designer: oh , user interface: industrial designer: i get to do it , too . project manager: yeah . it 's you guys . yeah . industrial designer: oh neat . user interface: cool . project manager: so um , you know i mean , luckily we chose a nice simple shape . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah . mm . project manager: um and further instructions will be sent by your personal coaches . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . save everything to the shared documents , is that right ? marketing: that 's great . project manager: uh yeah , i hope i can recover this , 'cause i 've accidentally deleted it . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: which does n't really help me much . user interface: i think , i 've saved mine already . project manager: yeah , can you save that uh send that last one again , please , raj , marketing: yeah . project manager: as i still ca n't find it on the marketing: uh it was under a different name . project manager: marketing: i will show you , in shared documents . project manager: okay . marketing: uh working components . oh , you did n't get that . i will send new . project manager: no . okay , thank you . marketing: uh i 'll put it in shared documents , again . project manager: um yeah , project , project documents . marketing: project documents , sorry , i put it in the shared documents . project manager: uh right , marketing: uh yeah . project manager: that 's that 's the that it goes there automatically if you put it in project documents . project documents is on the um desktop . marketing: right , that 's great . but i cou ca n't open that , because it w asks uh for some username or password . industrial designer: oh . project manager: really ? marketing: i 'll show you . industrial designer: uh these lapel mics are trouble . marketing: ts project manager: oh right , i think um marketing: sorry . project manager: hold on . marketing: uh . project manager: yeah , i do n't know if y it it just ca it just came up on my um on my agenda . s um presumably there 's clay somewhere . um . four . marketing: yeah , that 's great . project manager: whoops . light , light , please . light . right , there you go . marketing: yeah , th thank you . project manager: yeah , quite . and we 're using this our basic chip set , so it 's all good . marketing: oh sorry . industrial designer: are we done with our meeting ? marketing: uh excuse me , brian . project manager: um i think we 're almost done , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: you have to keep your pen separate , because i used your pen . project manager: oh oops . marketing: s project manager: sorry man . uh okay , still did n't manage to get down all the last bits so we had rechargeable and uh . apples . mm-mm-mm-mm-mm . 'kay , so we came up with that , that 's okay . what 's supplements ? supplements . uh uh . see . user interface: cool . fun . project manager: i shoulda something like that . if i kn see i i knew that . i shoulda sort of engineered it so we k ended up making a diffi difficult shape . user interface: marketing: hmm . project manager: just for cruelty . marketing: hmm . user interface: yeah . star fruit . project manager: i wonder if they mean like literally make it , sort of buttons and everything . marketing: so sh should should we leave now , brian ? user interface: no . oh yeah , we can do buttons . marketing: or we are going to discuss something ? project manager: um . uh no , i think that 's us our discussion over unless anybody 's got questions or confusions , marketing: user interface: no i 'm good . project manager: 'cause i 'm confused . marketing: yeah . project manager: huh ? user interface: okay . marketing: excuse me . project manager: um uh we 'll probably get questionnaire in a minute , it 's a user interface: mm . project manager: marketing: sorry . thank you . yeah . project manager: there we go . warning , finish meeting now . marketing: so . project manager: i rounded it up far too fast . um . where are we going ? my documents , that 's not what i want . my project documents . there we go .

according to user interface , most remote controls had an inconsistent layout , thus was difficult to use . also , they were mostly in boring shape , grey and quite space-agey with too many buttons . therefore , after discussion , the team decided to avoid those flaws they had discovered . basically , the new designs would be with programmability function , organic shape and consistent layout .

why did the team discuss the merits and demerits of the existing remotes ? </s> project manager: um we are so the meeting will have about the same format as the last time . so switching over i 've just left uh my first two screens . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: um mailed you the minutes of the last meeting uh just to save time . user interface: okay . cool . project manager: um and is there any questions you have that arised from last meeting that are particularly bothering you ? n user interface: mm um . no , i do n't think so . project manager: no ? okay , cool . industrial designer: no . project manager: then we shall start with a presentation from raj . marketing: yeah . hi , me raj , again . uh in this meeting i i 'm going to discuss about the trend watching , uh how these trends is going to affect our market potential and how important is this . so we have to look on this . first of all methodology . the met methodology to find out the trend was incl uh was done in a way we have done a rec not only a recent remote control market survey , but we also considered the latest fre fashion trends of the market , because we think that this is also a factor which will affect our sales and profit . so what are our findings ? in our uh in our findings we have seen that when we did our remote control market survey we found that uh people l uh people do have preference for tho fancy mobi uh f remote controls which look and feel very good , rather than having a functional look and feel uh good . so this sh this clearly indicates their preference for the design their outlook of the remote controls . so we should take into uh we should consider this factor as the most important factor , because this factor is twice as important , the second factor which is further ti twice the as important as the sec as uh the third factor . so this factor becomes the most important factor in our surv uh uh in our mark uh means in take in designing our rem uh remote controls . user interface: the last one is the most important one , is it ? marketing: no the first one is the user interface: oh , sorry . marketing: uh the outlook of the mobile , the it should have a fancy outlook , project manager: user interface: okay . marketing: the fancy design uh rather than just having a functional look and feel good , it should have a fancy look and foo feel good . user interface: okay . marketing: the second most important aspect is that remote control should be a technologically uh innovative . we must have some technological advancement in the remote control tha rather than just putting it as it is as the other remo uh remote controls are . so it uh should be technologically innovative like glow-in-the-dark or speech recognition , something like that . project manager: marketing: so that indicates our technological advancement . and the third most important aspect in the ta to take into consideration is that it should be easy to use , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: like it should n't be too much co complicated , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: there should n't be too many buttons on this mobi uh remote control , it should n't be too complicated uh like this way . and it should be uh and customers should be provided with manuals that is easy to understand in their local language , something . so that they could know how to use these remote controls . when we did uh f fashions uh , recent fashion uh our recent fashion update shows that user interface: sorry . industrial designer: marketing: ah yeah ? user interface: i was just reading fruit and vegetables . project manager: user interface: hard to know how we are going to incorporate that . marketing: y yeah uh yeah , we have to , because uh d you can see how people have related their clothes , shoes , and everything with fruits and vegetables , project manager: user interface: marketing: because the g world is now changing it 's trend towards organic , becoming more and more organic , user interface: okay . yeah . industrial designer: we should make a big sponge lemon , marketing: becoming industrial designer: and then it 'd be it would be yellow . marketing: yeah . project manager: user interface: yeah . industrial designer: it 's marketing: so user interface: th that 's very good . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . so something like that we we should do . user interface: glow-in-the-dark . okay . marketing: and people uh the f feel of the material is expected to be spongy rather than just having a plastic look , hard look . industrial designer: mm . user interface: well , that 's good . marketing: yeah . yeah . user interface: that 's what we kind of predicted anyway . marketing: so so that they could play with it while handi uh while handling it . so that should also be taken into consideration . user interface: okay . okay . marketing: so these are my views . user interface: okay . marketing: so user interface: okay , the spongy , not real spongy , you can marketing: no it ca y a user interface: do you think like rubber would be good or does it really want to be like gel kind of stuff ? marketing: the rubber which is good for health and which is quite disposable that we can take into co user interface: okay . quite disposable . marketing: yeah . 'cause we it should n't be have any harm to the environment also , user interface: okay . marketing: because our company is very well for taking all these concerns into consideration , project manager: alright , okay . user interface: oh okay . marketing: so we do n't want to have any harm to the society , user interface: uh-huh . okay . marketing: so project manager: fashion . user interface: project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: cool . marketing: so that 's all . project manager: fruit and veg , well there you go . user interface: project manager: just what i think of when i think of a remote control . user interface: mm . industrial designer: user interface: a remote control ? yeah . marketing: user interface: and were there any factors that were n't important in the survey , that they said we do n't want ? marketing: s uh we did n't find out any such point . user interface: or was it just okay . marketing: uh yes , there could be , but we could n't find out any , so project manager: mm-mm-mm-mm . user interface: cool . project manager: mm-mm-mm-mm-mm . user interface: f_ , what is it ? um . project manager: function f_ eight . user interface: yeah . project manager: hmm . user interface: okay . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: oh no , . user interface: no signal . is that ? industrial designer: no , it 's got it 's got it . marketing: yeah , uh yeah , uh yeah . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: excuse me . user interface: okay , and then f_ five , right ? project manager: uh , yeah . user interface: okay . um okay , so the interface concept um . yeah . the interface specification , what people um how they interact with it basically , i think . um so the method , we looked at existing designs , what are the what 's good about them , what 's bad about them , um i looked at their flaws , so we 're going to look at their flaws , everything . um and what the survey told us and what we think would be good , so a bit of imagination . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: uh the findings , i 've got some pictures to show you as well . project manager: either . industrial designer: marketing: hmm . user interface: yeah . okay , so most remote controls use graphical interface , where you um have got s buttons and you point it rather than having the output as a a stream of text or something . project manager: uh okay . user interface: um and we also found that there 's inconsistent layout , which makes it confusing . so i think for our remote control there is some inconsistency already in ec existing in between remote controls , but i think standard kind of um shape and uh play and those kind of but buttons like the the top right for on and off or something , project manager: right , okay . yeah . user interface: i think , people find that important , 'cause then it 's easy to use . project manager: user interface: and we 've got some pictures of some uh new remote controls to show you . project manager: excellent . user interface: do i press escape f_ five ? or just project manager: uh no just escape should uh user interface: escape , okay . um , oh i still have n't got my glasses on . yeah , okay . so these are the some of the pictures of existing ones . project manager: industrial designer: wow . user interface: i 'll just walk you through them . this one is a voice recognition . project manager: 'kay . user interface: and that 's the kind of idea we 're going for . project manager: looks pretty complicated . user interface: there 's um an lcd thing , which we thought could i thought could get a bit confusing and a bit expensive as well for us . project manager: right , okay . user interface: this one is got a kind of scroll like a mouse , project manager: mm-hmm , like the middle button . user interface: which yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: um and but i 'm not exactly sure how you 'd use that , industrial designer: project manager: ah it 's kinda like scrolling user interface: like would the computer come project manager: uh right , well , if i s if i 'm thinking of the right one , i 've got the same thing in front of my monitor , you scroll it and the when you reach the sort of um menu item that you require , you press the middle of the scroll . user interface: uh-huh , that 's like the lcd one , project manager: right , okay . user interface: is it ? but the one below that has got like a little scroll function on the side . but i presume that the functions must come up on the tv screen . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , presumably . user interface: i think that 's what that is . so these are just a few ideas . again that 's just quite boring shape , grey , looks quite space-agey , but too many buttons , i think on that one . industrial designer: uh it looks threatening . project manager: yeah , looks like uh looks like something out of a jet . user interface: yeah , it does look kind of dangerous . industrial designer: it looks like yeah . marketing: hmm . user interface: um this one i thought was really cool . it 's w it 's got the programmability function that we talked about . industrial designer: user interface: you can put it in there , it 's for your kids , and it 's quite an organic shape and the little circle around there is pretty cool . project manager: okay . user interface: and that 's really easy to use , bright , so i like this one lot for our design . i think something like that would be good . industrial designer: wow . project manager: yeah , i m i mean the one thing i think about about these ones is um these kl uh secured areas um , i 've seen a lot of them with the the cover missing . user interface: of course yellow . project manager: so like have it hinge rather than sort of clip on or whatever . user interface: right , yeah . yeah , that 's true . yeah . um so maybe that could be built into one of the things and it comes up on the tv or something . and this one , the over-sized one , i do n't know about you , but i think it 's a bit too gimmicky . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: user interface: i do n't think that will sell very well . project manager: i mean is that not sort of to assist the blind or something , is it ? user interface: i guess so . i do n't know . industrial designer: then d blind do n't watch tv . project manager: strange . user interface: i think that 's a bit yeah exactly . project manager: no they do , they do . industrial designer: they do ? project manager: they listen to it . yeah . user interface: yeah . and um this one is just pointing out . i like some of these things um the the raised symbols and everything , but pointing out um that this one the volume it is kind of pressing down , but it would actually go up , because of the shape . project manager: right , okay . user interface: so that could that 's a bit confusing . um but the buttons on this i think are it 's just showing you how you can have different different um buttons . they do n't have to be all the same . so that 's quite cool . um . project manager: 'kay but people tend to recognise certain shapes to do certain things anyway , do n't they ? user interface: yeah , exactly . um f_ five . yes . so there are some of the findings . so we need to combine those ones um industrial designer: user interface: and i 've just got an e-mail from our technical department saying that they have broken through with some new speech recognition software that you can program in . project manager: brilliant . that 's handy . user interface: um yeah it is , just in time , very handy . um so i think maybe incorporating that in our design would be good . project manager: okay . user interface: it 's you program it like you say , record , um and then , play , and then , record , play machine , and stuff like that , so that 's and it 's much yeah . so that 's quite cool . uh personal preferences just some imagination , the raised symbols i thought were good , the lcd , it does look smart , but i think maybe for our budget , do you think that would be a bit too expensive to have the industrial designer: the lcd user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and the other stuff uh , i think . user interface: and the speech recognition , 'cause i think we 're definitely going for the speech recognition , marketing: but in our market survey we have seen that people are willing to pay more , user interface: are we ? marketing: but they want the quality , they want f fancy look , they want some new design , something new . user interface: uh-huh . project manager: okay . marketing: uh yeah . user interface: uh-huh . but our budget , we 've project manager: it 's still it 's still got to get within our twelve fifty , you know . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so even if we increase our cost little bit , within uh some limits , and we give something new technological advancement as well as new design with fancy outlook , i think we will meet the requirements and we will be able to have a good sales in the market . user interface: uh-huh . okay . project manager: okay . user interface: i 'm not sure if the if for twenty five euros uh per uh twelve euros fifty m manufacturing cost , . industrial designer: ben bana project manager: yeah . i ca n't see tha although , th i mean to be to be sure they have got i mean they are going crazy with the lcd technology now , industrial designer: user interface: the lcd . project manager: so that you 've got your lcd tvs and everything so maybe the small industrial designer: project manager: but i mean like i i the black and white , i guess , it just does n't look funky enough . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: um but , i mean , like even mobile phones or whatever have now have colour lcd screens , user interface: no . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: w i ju i mean user interface: yeah . s project manager: i would n't know about the costs of them . user interface: uh-huh . industrial designer: but uh price price not withstanding um , is it too complicated , is it gon na be too much just overload ? marketing: and the project manager: twelve fifty . marketing: uh i it will be easy because there will be , on lcd s screen , there will be different frent icons , they can just click ok okay , whatever they wa project manager: possibly . user interface: yeah , that 's the thing , because industrial designer: but but the thing is when you use a remote control , you never look at it , right ? you 're looking at the tv project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and and it 's uh project manager: yeah . user interface: that 's true , yeah . industrial designer: it just seems kind of like a a needless th user interface: and one of the survey findings was that they want it easy to use , so i think i 'm not sure about the lcd . project manager: right . user interface: it 's a it 's great , it 's a good idea , but for our budget and for the thing we 're trying to go for eas easy to use , it 's not the thing we should go for , i think . child-friendly , i thought this was good , as you pointed out the um the bit , it often goes missing especially with children , but it 's a good shape and the organic is kind of we could make a vegetabley kind of round shape , i think . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so which vegetable ? project manager: well i mean we could make a user interface: yeah , i know , carrot . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: well , si since we 're going for the uh the k the sort of company colours , i think your lemon was n't that far s industrial designer: the the lemon . well what are the options ? user interface: yeah . project manager: and if it does n't work you know , we 've just made a lemon . user interface: but we do n't want it to be yeah . um the child-friendly , yeah . easy to use , it seems quite easy to use . i like the d the different shapes of the buttons and stuff . project manager: mm-hmm . i like i like the colourful buttons as well . user interface: i think that 's a good idea to go for . yeah . and the mouse one , i thought it was a good idea , because people use mo mice mouses now with the scrolling thing . um . project manager: yeah . i mean we are marketing to sort of twenty five to thirty five , user interface: yeah . project manager: so most people will have come in contact with that kind of use . user interface: s yeah . so they 'd be able to use that um , as i said i think i i 'd presume it would come up on the screen . project manager: yeah . user interface: um so there you go . project manager: and that means tha that means you get to bump that bit to the tv maker , so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: oh . user interface: so that 's um the user interface project manager: 'kay . user interface: design . project manager: industrial designer: okay . user interface: so okay , i 'll take this out now then . industrial designer: um so project manager: user interface: there you go . industrial designer: i guess there are a lot of options that we 're gon na have to choose from among , project manager: yeah , looks like it . industrial designer: and i 'll i 'll give you the uh , i guess , technical considerations for those . user interface: mm . project manager: uh user interface: industrial designer: and i 'm gon na use the whiteboard , just 'cause we have n't used it . project manager: yeah , i was just thinking the self same thing . user interface: industrial designer: right . so , the way i 'm gon na do this is uh we 're gon na take a look at some old remote controls , see how they work , uh reuse the the vital kind of um essential pieces of it , project manager: industrial designer: and then we 'll throw in our new innovations um and keep it all within budget . project manager: magic man . industrial designer: so uh yeah , looking inside a a very simple remote control . um this is what they sent me . 'kay . here 's uh the competition , i suppose . project manager: industrial designer: um you open it up , there 's a circuit board inside , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and there 's a a chip , a processor , the t_a_ one one eight three five , which um receives input from the buttons , and ch project manager: so this is a standard off the shelf kind of a chip , is it ? industrial designer: right , it 's very they 're very cheap remote . this remote costs nothing , you know . um so that takes a signals from the buttons and translates it into a sequence of pulses that it then sends to the to the amplifier , which is made of some transistors and amplifiers , op-amps , and then that gets sent to the uh to the l_e_d_ light , which i can kinda see is that little red light bulb at the end , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and that sends out the infrared uh light signal to the television . project manager: right . industrial designer: oh here it is . um so this is kind of the the bear essentials that we need to have in our remote control , because it it defines the uh project manager: okay . so can we make them to pretty much any size we like or is there a minimum or ? industrial designer: r um no , i mean this is a very old one , so now with the new technology this is a a minimally small and cheap thing to make . project manager: they got ta be almost a key-ring . industrial designer: right . so this is what we need to have for certain . project manager: okay . industrial designer: um . so you know , as we said , we got the outer casing , which we have to decide , you know , what 's it gon na be , um the board we have to use basically uh the same set-up , processor , um we 'll probably use the more advanced processor than they had , amplifier and transmitter are all standard . um so for the casing , uh this an e-mail i got from our manufacturing team uh , you know , we have a bunch of options from wood , titanium , rubber , plastic , whatnot , um latex , double-curved , curved . so lots of choices , user interface: project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: what do we think ? uh or sponge , i guess , is n't on there , right . project manager: well . user interface: mm . i 'm not sure about the sponge . industrial designer: organic sponge . project manager: well , i mean like la latex has a kinda spongy feeling to it , does n't it . industrial designer: uh yeah , it 's very elasticy for sure . project manager: um yeah . and that would k also give it kinda durability user interface: yeah . project manager: and user interface: yeah . industrial designer: um . project manager: and ther that 's also f sorta relatively cheap to cast . industrial designer: yeah so project manager: um so maybe s uh a sort of uh plastic initial plastic with a a latex kinda sheath ? industrial designer: okay so , here are a a plastic , uh latex user interface: i like the rubber , the stress balls , i think , project manager: oh right , okay . user interface: you know , that could be a bit of a gimmick like it 's good to hold and industrial designer: oh right . project manager: i do n't know what that stuff is . industrial designer: so something with give to it . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . and user interface: and that might be quite durable and easy to chuck around . industrial designer: and the colour is yellow , right ? user interface: yeah , project manager: or at least incorporating , yeah . user interface: y yellow incorporated , yeah . industrial designer: yellow , okay . um . project manager: i mean i forgot i we 're sort of uh i do n't know what other standard silver kind of user interface: i think project manager: other parts or uh user interface: mm . yeah , the buttons w like , 'cause there 's gon na be the the cover the the rubber or the plastic casing and then the buttons in probably two different colours project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm ' kay . user interface: or i if we 're having buttons actually , industrial designer: so yellow for the body , user interface: i don project manager: um . industrial designer: and then what colour for the buttons ? project manager: um i quite like the multi-coloured buttons myself . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so multi-coloured buttons . user interface: you do have ones like um play could be green or on and off is red , and stuff like that , yeah . industrial designer: project manager: yeah or yeah a limit uh maybe even just a limited multi-colour so it it does n't look too childish , perhaps . user interface: makes it easy to use . yeah , that 's true , because that blue one did look quite hardish . industrial designer: okay . project manager: yeah . although i mean this uh uh also comes to shape as well . i mean if we are gon na make it a novel i mean double-curved sounds good to me if we 're talking about sorta ergonomic and easy use , industrial designer: okay . user interface: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: a bit comfier , you know . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm 'kay so the shape we wan na go um how exactly ? maybe double user interface: like uh an hour glass kind of figure , is that what you 're thinking of , project manager: yeah it 's uh , yeah , that that 'd be that 's sort of comfortable to hold , easy to hold so you do n't drop it . user interface: or just like a it 's not industrial designer: what about a banana ? user interface: yeah . project manager: user interface: we could make novelty remote controls . industrial designer: yeah ? okay , like we could have a big banana shaped remote control , project manager: well , yeah , i mean like industrial designer: 'cause it 's yellow fruit , user interface: industrial designer: right ? project manager: yeah , yeah . mm and a lemon might be a little hard to grip . yeah . user interface: yeah . but then how would you point it ? marketing: ah industrial designer: marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . user interface: how would you point it ? industrial designer: oh i it does n't matter which end you point , i guess . user interface: what industrial designer: we could have a little l_e_d_s on each end . marketing: yeah , i appreciate this idea , project manager: they only cost pennies . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: because then this this will help us in our advertisement also project manager: marketing: and we can relate with fruits and vegetables , the people 's choices . that what our data shows that , so this w this w user interface: yeah . project manager: huh ? user interface: y i 'm i 'm not sure about the banana idea . marketing: project manager: um . industrial designer: so a spongy banana re marketing: project manager: i mean that that th user interface: rubber banana . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: does user interface: okay . project manager: it does seem a bit uh again childish maybe . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay , okay . user interface: i think maybe just draw on the kind of fruit and vegetable shape . and what else did you say about fashions ? what was trendy ? marketing: uh the fashion trend shows that fruits and vegetables , project manager: s industrial designer: see marketing: like people uh now project manager: and sponginess . industrial designer: so maybe an an unidentifiable fruit or fiable fruit or vegetable user interface: and spongy , yeah . marketing: spongy . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: like so it would have a stem perhaps user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and a user interface: maybe , yeah . industrial designer: maybe a it 'd be s axially symmetric . project manager: huh . user interface: like what 's what 's that , i do n't even know the name of it , some kind of , you know where it 's like looks like a little snowman kind of thing . i do n't know the name of that . industrial designer: so it 'd look like this kinda . user interface: yeah , that 's what i was thinking . industrial designer: like a gourd almost , or a squash of some sort ? project manager: uh . user interface: yeah , maybe that 's what they are . project manager: user interface: 'cause that you can hold it in like the bottom bit industrial designer: yeah , user interface: and industrial designer: and it has a a clear top and bottom so y so you could say , you know , it transmits from this end . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , why the hell not . let 's that 'll make us fifty million euros . user interface: i do n't know . what do you guy what do you think ? industrial designer: project manager: um . well , i guess it 's kind of dra uh you do n't necessarily have to have it sort of clearly identified as a fruit just to have that kind of fruitish shape , user interface: no . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah ? user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , then only we can relate it with something . project manager: yeah , we can relate it by advertising or marketing: yeah . exactly . industrial designer: okay , so double-curved , single-curved , what do we feel ? project manager: yeah . marketing: or we can do something , we can design two three shapes and we can have a public survey , let the public choose what they want . user interface: uh-huh . industrial designer: okay . project manager: there 's a good man . there 's a good idea . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay um , i guess , since you 're the marketing guy . marketing: yeah , sure . i will be happy to do that . project manager: industrial designer: we 'll uh okay , we could do that . um . user interface: okay . and buttons would , did we say ? uh different shapes of buttons ? industrial designer: project manager: um i l i su i mean for the specific functions , you know , up and down , uh play , stop . user interface: mm . industrial designer: okay , so project manager: they 've got , i mean , they 've got standard sort of intuitive um industrial designer: so buttons . project manager: things that are always used . industrial designer: okay , just like that . user interface: project manager: that 's cool . user interface: yeah . project manager: i like it . industrial designer: okay . project manager: um . industrial designer: with the scroll-wheel or no ? user interface: yeah , what about the scroll wheel and speech recognition ? project manager: uh speech recognition , i think , so we need a microphone presumably . industrial designer: okay uh i could put the microphone here . project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: okay there 's the microphone . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: where should i put the microphone ? project manager: i mean ho h h wel are we sure that scroll wheel does give ease of use ? user interface: yeah , i 'm not sure . um i mean those ideas i saw were just for inspiration , i think . project manager: glad , we 're not doing this for real . user interface: um yeah , i can no i 'm not sure . industrial designer: okay , well we can do some user test with scroll-wheels , right ? user interface: i couldn yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: and uh i think if this this new software for the sound recognition is the microphone industrial designer: okay . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so should the microphone be just anywhere on it or project manager: i would put it sort of sub-centrally , so it 's yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: 'kay there 's the mic . project manager: so it can be sort of held and w user interface: that 's cool . industrial designer: project manager: we really need really gon na need to hold it , if it 's gon na be voice recognition . industrial designer: um n well we can whoops . project manager: oops . user interface: industrial designer: um . project manager: um . user interface: so let 's not use the whiteboard any more . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: marketing: industrial designer: um . marketing: project manager: upsidaisy . industrial designer: oops , sorry . okay . user interface: and uh so what else was there ? um the industrial designer: project manager: user interface: what about the glow-in-the-dark thing , the strip around it ? project manager: i s i still like it . user interface: are we just gon na leave that ? project manager: um but that 's me . user interface: you still like it . 'cause we 've got the uh technological innovation with the speech recognition system . industrial designer: right . project manager: yes , or maybe it 's just going a bit uh too far . i mean we are pushing it probably with funny fruit shapes . user interface: 'cause um it could yeah . project manager: um do n't wan na sort of overkill . user interface: especially with yellow . mm . i dunno . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: 'cause i mean like uh if we i mean how good is the speech recognition thing ? do we want to go for buttons at all , do we want to just have a device that maybe sits and pretends it 's a fruit ? user interface: then you put it in the fruit bowl ? industrial designer: they can work from a project manager: yeah , you know , and then you just tal industrial designer: you do n't have to hold it . project manager: i mean like everybody 's got fruit bowl in front of the telly . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i it could even encourage healthier habits for television watchers , project manager: um . industrial designer: you know they have uh fruits all round them . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . make them make them think of fruit , yeah . industrial designer: now just make sure they do n't eat the remote . marketing: yeah . project manager: i mean uh some uh i user interface: yeah , do we need buttons ? project manager: l like think of a fruit that could sit sort of independently on its own like uh , i dunno , an apple . user interface: mm . project manager: then it 's just apple so sort of industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh , yellow apples though hmm . user interface: i quite like the shape . i quite like the design of that , uh 'cause that could sit on its own and it 's quite got a quite steady base . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . okay , yeah , that 's good . industrial designer: okay . but yeah project manager: groovy . user interface: um project manager: user interface: and as we say we n we do n't wan na be too ridiculous with the fruit things you know . project manager: yeah , . industrial designer: but yeah , about the speech thing , it does n't have to be hand held or close . user interface: industrial designer: it can sit at a distance and pick it up still . project manager: yeah . so i mean like you could actually user interface: okay . marketing: or we can project manager: yeah , gives you the options . marketing: we can do one thing , we can just have a remote control and casings of different different shapes , different fruit shapes in such a way that a any casing can be could be fit into this mobile general piece . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so whatever people want , like if somebody want it in banana shape , we will put that casing onto that mobile phone , okay , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so a selection of casings . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: it will look l uh yeah . in that w project manager: it kind of fi it fits with f fits with marketing um user interface: yeah , 'cause you said about disposable , marketing: s s sorry ? user interface: did n't you ? you said about disposable earli people want disposable things marketing: uh like if this is a like if this is a mobile phone uh we will design casing in such a way like half of , we need not to have a full cover , we will just have a half of cover , project manager: user interface: so we could do that , like have a choice . yeah . marketing: okay ? if somebody wants it i in banana shape , we will fit banana shape casing onto that , so it will give a banana shape look . project manager: like like mobiles , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: if somebody wanted in apple shape we will design that , we will put we will put apple shape casing on that . it will give apple shape look . so in that way you can have any , that means whatever you want , user interface: okay . project manager: user interface: okay . marketing: without uh yeah . user interface: we still need the buttons in the same places thought , marketing: yeah , button will be on the upper side , buttons will be the on the upper side . user interface: do n't we ? project manager: you can standardise those , i mean . user interface: marketing: yeah , buttons will be on the upper side , lower side we will just put the casing , user interface: oh , that 's the other side . oh , okay . marketing: so half of that will be look the user interface: oh , half a fruit . oh , okay , okay . marketing: yeah , not not the upper side . so from lower you can , it means while you are holding of from this side you c you can have banana look or apple look , whatever . user interface: okay , okay . marketing: so in that way we need not to d have different different shape mobiles everything , we will just design casings fruit shape . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: and project manager: i think tho i think if you 're gon na have a facia then you 'd want to have it so that it does go over the buttons , user interface: okay . project manager: 'cause when if you think about it if they 're wanting it , 'cause they want to look at it , if they 're using it , and what they want to look at is facing away from them . it does n't really user interface: mm mm . project manager: you know 'cause that 'd be in the palm of their hand and they would n't be able to see it , user interface: yeah . project manager: unless you have sort of you got the buttons options on one side , and you get the facia on the other side with a microphone so that you can place it face down . and you 've got the facia , and you can just talk at the user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: maybe . industrial designer: okay , um so marketing: project manager: so you 've narrowed it down to half a dozen options . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: industrial designer: s i guess we decided on material , right ? so that that spongy latex rubber everything feel , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and the colours we got down , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and the shape , maybe we 'll just make it kinda mix and match type of shape or project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . well , um because well , i i 'm not sure if we should go so far in the whole fruit thing , because i think we should maybe just take the inspiration from the fruit and uh because what project manager: okay , so we stick with what we 've got there . user interface: yeah , w i think wh wha would we 're trying to get to twenty five , thirty five year olds who want it quite trendy as well they said . they wanted something that looks fancy and i think maybe fruit could be a bit of a too much of a gimmick , but something ergonomically shaped and organic , like good to hold , based on fruits and natural things like that , project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: because al already we 're going a bit gaudy with the yellow , you know . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: i mean we could make it nice pale yellow . project manager: well , it 's kind of got ta be our company 's yellow . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . project manager: so again i mean like we could have , uh i mean , we could quite easily have the the main body be a different user interface: okay . yeah . project manager: colour , but have user interface: maybe we could have that pale yellow and then an outside bit bright yellow with , you said , the logan the slogan . project manager: kinda going round , yeah . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um i mean e even if user interface: because project manager: i mean not necessarily that the um the whole body has to be of the company colour , so you know um blue and yellow tend to go to we well together . user interface: yeah . project manager: so you have the main body blue with the yellow logo and slogan running up one side of it kind of thing . user interface: yeah . yeah . uh-huh . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: w sort of industrial designer: great . um as for the energy source um , you know , almost every remote control uses just batteries , but we do n't have to be limited by that . we can use a hand-dynamo . um i do n't know what that means , we crank it ? project manager: uh it 's i think it 's basically the more you move i it , it 's got a wee thing inside that just kinda powers it . industrial designer: right , it 's like those watches that you c project manager: uh yeah . industrial designer: so , this might be an idea for something that people really wan na grab , you can shake it if it 's out of power . user interface: oh , a d a dynamo ? marketing: yeah , . project manager: yeah , i like that , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: user interface: yeah , like with those watches that you kind of twist . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah that 's quite cool . industrial designer: okay . so if it if it 's not working , i guess people 's natural reaction anyway is to just shake the thing . marketing: but project manager: okay . you shake it and scream at it . marketing: but but do you think that it will be a good idea to use dynamo , tha these type of cells ? project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , it is , yeah . marketing: because then people have to , well like if the cell is out of bat project manager: it does leave them with an obligation to marketing: yeah , to mo yeah . project manager: especially if they want to use it uh uh sp uh specifically as um voice activated . marketing: yeah , industrial designer: right . marketing: because most of the people project manager: then if it 's just sitting on the user interface: yeah , then they have to pick it up and then activate it and then yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , okay . industrial designer: okay . user interface: that 's true . project manager: right um what are the other options ? industrial designer: uh there 's solar power . um . marketing: uh , solar power will w also not be a good idea , because then they have to keep m their mobiles outside in solar energy , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: and the days when there is no sola sunlight project manager: i 'm i 'm with uh raj on that , industrial designer: okay , so probably just marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: i think , you know , marketing: what we w project manager: i 've got i 've got no i 've got a north facing house , there 's not really ever sun coming in my window . user interface: marketing: yeah . i think we should a rechargeable battery will be a good idea . user interface: but w like just normal light ? project manager: oh that 's true . marketing: they can they can recharge it . project manager: i mean i w i w uh user interface: project manager: that idea that i thought um just on the basis of like ridding them of batteries and that kind of bother industrial designer: mm . project manager: is having a , user interface: and we 're a very environmentally friendly company , are n't we as well ? project manager: yeah , marketing: yeah . project manager: having a rechargeable stand , so that not only it doubles as a stand , but um for using it as uh recharging it , but also for using it as sound recognition . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: 'kay . user interface: like like a hand like one of those portable phones kind of thing . marketing: yeah , that 's yeah , exactly . project manager: yeah that kind of thing . industrial designer: okay . so uh a rechargeable battery . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . um the user interface , the buttons , i guess we talked about this already . project manager: rechargeable . user interface: mm . industrial designer: um . project manager: . what 's chip on print ? what 's industrial designer: hmm ? project manager: sorry , never mind . industrial designer: uh th the uh the electronics um , basically the more features we add um oops , this one . so the more features we add the fancier chips we need to buy and put in , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: which adds to the cost as you can expect . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um . but uh i think we can keep it all under budget . so uh yes , so the speech thing you said our our techno our research and development department came up with some break-through . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so just in time . project manager: yeah , and if we if we 're just having buttons and the speech then we 're getting our cheapest option of chipping . user interface: just in time . industrial designer: right , right . project manager: that 's good . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: uh woah . industrial designer: and keeping the lcd screen out . project manager: okay , we 're we 're kind of uh we 're kind of um excuse m i 've just deleted that whole thing . um we 're kind of running out of time , so if you could uh . was that you ? industrial designer: huh ? project manager: um that was your bit 's covered , industrial designer: oh yeah that was that was it . project manager: i just dele i just accidentally deleted what i was supposed to say next . industrial designer: marketing: uh excuse me , bri project manager: um , yeah . industrial designer: so control f_ eight , right ? project manager: oh , yeah . user interface: yeah , mine seems to have turned off . project manager: and i just touch the pad . user interface: i ca n't do anything . marketing: you just touch the pad , yeah . user interface: no . marketing: no ? project manager: it 's actually shut down . user interface: it 's on , but there 's nothing on the screen . project manager: okay , um now what we have industrial designer: try uh flipping the screen down . project manager: uh our next meeting 's in half an hour industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: and what i would like you guys to do is work on giving me a model in clay . industrial designer: oh , user interface: industrial designer: i get to do it , too . project manager: yeah . it 's you guys . yeah . industrial designer: oh neat . user interface: cool . project manager: so um , you know i mean , luckily we chose a nice simple shape . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah . mm . project manager: um and further instructions will be sent by your personal coaches . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . save everything to the shared documents , is that right ? marketing: that 's great . project manager: uh yeah , i hope i can recover this , 'cause i 've accidentally deleted it . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: which does n't really help me much . user interface: i think , i 've saved mine already . project manager: yeah , can you save that uh send that last one again , please , raj , marketing: yeah . project manager: as i still ca n't find it on the marketing: uh it was under a different name . project manager: marketing: i will show you , in shared documents . project manager: okay . marketing: uh working components . oh , you did n't get that . i will send new . project manager: no . okay , thank you . marketing: uh i 'll put it in shared documents , again . project manager: um yeah , project , project documents . marketing: project documents , sorry , i put it in the shared documents . project manager: uh right , marketing: uh yeah . project manager: that 's that 's the that it goes there automatically if you put it in project documents . project documents is on the um desktop . marketing: right , that 's great . but i cou ca n't open that , because it w asks uh for some username or password . industrial designer: oh . project manager: really ? marketing: i 'll show you . industrial designer: uh these lapel mics are trouble . marketing: ts project manager: oh right , i think um marketing: sorry . project manager: hold on . marketing: uh . project manager: yeah , i do n't know if y it it just ca it just came up on my um on my agenda . s um presumably there 's clay somewhere . um . four . marketing: yeah , that 's great . project manager: whoops . light , light , please . light . right , there you go . marketing: yeah , th thank you . project manager: yeah , quite . and we 're using this our basic chip set , so it 's all good . marketing: oh sorry . industrial designer: are we done with our meeting ? marketing: uh excuse me , brian . project manager: um i think we 're almost done , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: you have to keep your pen separate , because i used your pen . project manager: oh oops . marketing: s project manager: sorry man . uh okay , still did n't manage to get down all the last bits so we had rechargeable and uh . apples . mm-mm-mm-mm-mm . 'kay , so we came up with that , that 's okay . what 's supplements ? supplements . uh uh . see . user interface: cool . fun . project manager: i shoulda something like that . if i kn see i i knew that . i shoulda sort of engineered it so we k ended up making a diffi difficult shape . user interface: marketing: hmm . project manager: just for cruelty . marketing: hmm . user interface: yeah . star fruit . project manager: i wonder if they mean like literally make it , sort of buttons and everything . marketing: so sh should should we leave now , brian ? user interface: no . oh yeah , we can do buttons . marketing: or we are going to discuss something ? project manager: um . uh no , i think that 's us our discussion over unless anybody 's got questions or confusions , marketing: user interface: no i 'm good . project manager: 'cause i 'm confused . marketing: yeah . project manager: huh ? user interface: okay . marketing: excuse me . project manager: um uh we 'll probably get questionnaire in a minute , it 's a user interface: mm . project manager: marketing: sorry . thank you . yeah . project manager: there we go . warning , finish meeting now . marketing: so . project manager: i rounded it up far too fast . um . where are we going ? my documents , that 's not what i want . my project documents . there we go .

in general , the team only collected the flaws of the existing remotes . according to the user interface , the existing remotes were difficult to use because of the inconsistent layout , too many buttons and shape problems . for each problem , the team tried to give the solution . for example , their new remotes would have a standard layout , limited buttons and organic shapes . it was believed that by solving all these problems , the new remotes would be easy for the customers to use .

what was the conclusion about scrolling on the new remotes when they were discussing the merits of the existing remotes ? </s> project manager: um we are so the meeting will have about the same format as the last time . so switching over i 've just left uh my first two screens . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: um mailed you the minutes of the last meeting uh just to save time . user interface: okay . cool . project manager: um and is there any questions you have that arised from last meeting that are particularly bothering you ? n user interface: mm um . no , i do n't think so . project manager: no ? okay , cool . industrial designer: no . project manager: then we shall start with a presentation from raj . marketing: yeah . hi , me raj , again . uh in this meeting i i 'm going to discuss about the trend watching , uh how these trends is going to affect our market potential and how important is this . so we have to look on this . first of all methodology . the met methodology to find out the trend was incl uh was done in a way we have done a rec not only a recent remote control market survey , but we also considered the latest fre fashion trends of the market , because we think that this is also a factor which will affect our sales and profit . so what are our findings ? in our uh in our findings we have seen that when we did our remote control market survey we found that uh people l uh people do have preference for tho fancy mobi uh f remote controls which look and feel very good , rather than having a functional look and feel uh good . so this sh this clearly indicates their preference for the design their outlook of the remote controls . so we should take into uh we should consider this factor as the most important factor , because this factor is twice as important , the second factor which is further ti twice the as important as the sec as uh the third factor . so this factor becomes the most important factor in our surv uh uh in our mark uh means in take in designing our rem uh remote controls . user interface: the last one is the most important one , is it ? marketing: no the first one is the user interface: oh , sorry . marketing: uh the outlook of the mobile , the it should have a fancy outlook , project manager: user interface: okay . marketing: the fancy design uh rather than just having a functional look and feel good , it should have a fancy look and foo feel good . user interface: okay . marketing: the second most important aspect is that remote control should be a technologically uh innovative . we must have some technological advancement in the remote control tha rather than just putting it as it is as the other remo uh remote controls are . so it uh should be technologically innovative like glow-in-the-dark or speech recognition , something like that . project manager: marketing: so that indicates our technological advancement . and the third most important aspect in the ta to take into consideration is that it should be easy to use , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: like it should n't be too much co complicated , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: there should n't be too many buttons on this mobi uh remote control , it should n't be too complicated uh like this way . and it should be uh and customers should be provided with manuals that is easy to understand in their local language , something . so that they could know how to use these remote controls . when we did uh f fashions uh , recent fashion uh our recent fashion update shows that user interface: sorry . industrial designer: marketing: ah yeah ? user interface: i was just reading fruit and vegetables . project manager: user interface: hard to know how we are going to incorporate that . marketing: y yeah uh yeah , we have to , because uh d you can see how people have related their clothes , shoes , and everything with fruits and vegetables , project manager: user interface: marketing: because the g world is now changing it 's trend towards organic , becoming more and more organic , user interface: okay . yeah . industrial designer: we should make a big sponge lemon , marketing: becoming industrial designer: and then it 'd be it would be yellow . marketing: yeah . project manager: user interface: yeah . industrial designer: it 's marketing: so user interface: th that 's very good . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . so something like that we we should do . user interface: glow-in-the-dark . okay . marketing: and people uh the f feel of the material is expected to be spongy rather than just having a plastic look , hard look . industrial designer: mm . user interface: well , that 's good . marketing: yeah . yeah . user interface: that 's what we kind of predicted anyway . marketing: so so that they could play with it while handi uh while handling it . so that should also be taken into consideration . user interface: okay . okay . marketing: so these are my views . user interface: okay . marketing: so user interface: okay , the spongy , not real spongy , you can marketing: no it ca y a user interface: do you think like rubber would be good or does it really want to be like gel kind of stuff ? marketing: the rubber which is good for health and which is quite disposable that we can take into co user interface: okay . quite disposable . marketing: yeah . 'cause we it should n't be have any harm to the environment also , user interface: okay . marketing: because our company is very well for taking all these concerns into consideration , project manager: alright , okay . user interface: oh okay . marketing: so we do n't want to have any harm to the society , user interface: uh-huh . okay . marketing: so project manager: fashion . user interface: project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: cool . marketing: so that 's all . project manager: fruit and veg , well there you go . user interface: project manager: just what i think of when i think of a remote control . user interface: mm . industrial designer: user interface: a remote control ? yeah . marketing: user interface: and were there any factors that were n't important in the survey , that they said we do n't want ? marketing: s uh we did n't find out any such point . user interface: or was it just okay . marketing: uh yes , there could be , but we could n't find out any , so project manager: mm-mm-mm-mm . user interface: cool . project manager: mm-mm-mm-mm-mm . user interface: f_ , what is it ? um . project manager: function f_ eight . user interface: yeah . project manager: hmm . user interface: okay . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: oh no , . user interface: no signal . is that ? industrial designer: no , it 's got it 's got it . marketing: yeah , uh yeah , uh yeah . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: excuse me . user interface: okay , and then f_ five , right ? project manager: uh , yeah . user interface: okay . um okay , so the interface concept um . yeah . the interface specification , what people um how they interact with it basically , i think . um so the method , we looked at existing designs , what are the what 's good about them , what 's bad about them , um i looked at their flaws , so we 're going to look at their flaws , everything . um and what the survey told us and what we think would be good , so a bit of imagination . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: uh the findings , i 've got some pictures to show you as well . project manager: either . industrial designer: marketing: hmm . user interface: yeah . okay , so most remote controls use graphical interface , where you um have got s buttons and you point it rather than having the output as a a stream of text or something . project manager: uh okay . user interface: um and we also found that there 's inconsistent layout , which makes it confusing . so i think for our remote control there is some inconsistency already in ec existing in between remote controls , but i think standard kind of um shape and uh play and those kind of but buttons like the the top right for on and off or something , project manager: right , okay . yeah . user interface: i think , people find that important , 'cause then it 's easy to use . project manager: user interface: and we 've got some pictures of some uh new remote controls to show you . project manager: excellent . user interface: do i press escape f_ five ? or just project manager: uh no just escape should uh user interface: escape , okay . um , oh i still have n't got my glasses on . yeah , okay . so these are the some of the pictures of existing ones . project manager: industrial designer: wow . user interface: i 'll just walk you through them . this one is a voice recognition . project manager: 'kay . user interface: and that 's the kind of idea we 're going for . project manager: looks pretty complicated . user interface: there 's um an lcd thing , which we thought could i thought could get a bit confusing and a bit expensive as well for us . project manager: right , okay . user interface: this one is got a kind of scroll like a mouse , project manager: mm-hmm , like the middle button . user interface: which yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: um and but i 'm not exactly sure how you 'd use that , industrial designer: project manager: ah it 's kinda like scrolling user interface: like would the computer come project manager: uh right , well , if i s if i 'm thinking of the right one , i 've got the same thing in front of my monitor , you scroll it and the when you reach the sort of um menu item that you require , you press the middle of the scroll . user interface: uh-huh , that 's like the lcd one , project manager: right , okay . user interface: is it ? but the one below that has got like a little scroll function on the side . but i presume that the functions must come up on the tv screen . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , presumably . user interface: i think that 's what that is . so these are just a few ideas . again that 's just quite boring shape , grey , looks quite space-agey , but too many buttons , i think on that one . industrial designer: uh it looks threatening . project manager: yeah , looks like uh looks like something out of a jet . user interface: yeah , it does look kind of dangerous . industrial designer: it looks like yeah . marketing: hmm . user interface: um this one i thought was really cool . it 's w it 's got the programmability function that we talked about . industrial designer: user interface: you can put it in there , it 's for your kids , and it 's quite an organic shape and the little circle around there is pretty cool . project manager: okay . user interface: and that 's really easy to use , bright , so i like this one lot for our design . i think something like that would be good . industrial designer: wow . project manager: yeah , i m i mean the one thing i think about about these ones is um these kl uh secured areas um , i 've seen a lot of them with the the cover missing . user interface: of course yellow . project manager: so like have it hinge rather than sort of clip on or whatever . user interface: right , yeah . yeah , that 's true . yeah . um so maybe that could be built into one of the things and it comes up on the tv or something . and this one , the over-sized one , i do n't know about you , but i think it 's a bit too gimmicky . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: user interface: i do n't think that will sell very well . project manager: i mean is that not sort of to assist the blind or something , is it ? user interface: i guess so . i do n't know . industrial designer: then d blind do n't watch tv . project manager: strange . user interface: i think that 's a bit yeah exactly . project manager: no they do , they do . industrial designer: they do ? project manager: they listen to it . yeah . user interface: yeah . and um this one is just pointing out . i like some of these things um the the raised symbols and everything , but pointing out um that this one the volume it is kind of pressing down , but it would actually go up , because of the shape . project manager: right , okay . user interface: so that could that 's a bit confusing . um but the buttons on this i think are it 's just showing you how you can have different different um buttons . they do n't have to be all the same . so that 's quite cool . um . project manager: 'kay but people tend to recognise certain shapes to do certain things anyway , do n't they ? user interface: yeah , exactly . um f_ five . yes . so there are some of the findings . so we need to combine those ones um industrial designer: user interface: and i 've just got an e-mail from our technical department saying that they have broken through with some new speech recognition software that you can program in . project manager: brilliant . that 's handy . user interface: um yeah it is , just in time , very handy . um so i think maybe incorporating that in our design would be good . project manager: okay . user interface: it 's you program it like you say , record , um and then , play , and then , record , play machine , and stuff like that , so that 's and it 's much yeah . so that 's quite cool . uh personal preferences just some imagination , the raised symbols i thought were good , the lcd , it does look smart , but i think maybe for our budget , do you think that would be a bit too expensive to have the industrial designer: the lcd user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and the other stuff uh , i think . user interface: and the speech recognition , 'cause i think we 're definitely going for the speech recognition , marketing: but in our market survey we have seen that people are willing to pay more , user interface: are we ? marketing: but they want the quality , they want f fancy look , they want some new design , something new . user interface: uh-huh . project manager: okay . marketing: uh yeah . user interface: uh-huh . but our budget , we 've project manager: it 's still it 's still got to get within our twelve fifty , you know . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so even if we increase our cost little bit , within uh some limits , and we give something new technological advancement as well as new design with fancy outlook , i think we will meet the requirements and we will be able to have a good sales in the market . user interface: uh-huh . okay . project manager: okay . user interface: i 'm not sure if the if for twenty five euros uh per uh twelve euros fifty m manufacturing cost , . industrial designer: ben bana project manager: yeah . i ca n't see tha although , th i mean to be to be sure they have got i mean they are going crazy with the lcd technology now , industrial designer: user interface: the lcd . project manager: so that you 've got your lcd tvs and everything so maybe the small industrial designer: project manager: but i mean like i i the black and white , i guess , it just does n't look funky enough . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: um but , i mean , like even mobile phones or whatever have now have colour lcd screens , user interface: no . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: w i ju i mean user interface: yeah . s project manager: i would n't know about the costs of them . user interface: uh-huh . industrial designer: but uh price price not withstanding um , is it too complicated , is it gon na be too much just overload ? marketing: and the project manager: twelve fifty . marketing: uh i it will be easy because there will be , on lcd s screen , there will be different frent icons , they can just click ok okay , whatever they wa project manager: possibly . user interface: yeah , that 's the thing , because industrial designer: but but the thing is when you use a remote control , you never look at it , right ? you 're looking at the tv project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and and it 's uh project manager: yeah . user interface: that 's true , yeah . industrial designer: it just seems kind of like a a needless th user interface: and one of the survey findings was that they want it easy to use , so i think i 'm not sure about the lcd . project manager: right . user interface: it 's a it 's great , it 's a good idea , but for our budget and for the thing we 're trying to go for eas easy to use , it 's not the thing we should go for , i think . child-friendly , i thought this was good , as you pointed out the um the bit , it often goes missing especially with children , but it 's a good shape and the organic is kind of we could make a vegetabley kind of round shape , i think . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so which vegetable ? project manager: well i mean we could make a user interface: yeah , i know , carrot . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: well , si since we 're going for the uh the k the sort of company colours , i think your lemon was n't that far s industrial designer: the the lemon . well what are the options ? user interface: yeah . project manager: and if it does n't work you know , we 've just made a lemon . user interface: but we do n't want it to be yeah . um the child-friendly , yeah . easy to use , it seems quite easy to use . i like the d the different shapes of the buttons and stuff . project manager: mm-hmm . i like i like the colourful buttons as well . user interface: i think that 's a good idea to go for . yeah . and the mouse one , i thought it was a good idea , because people use mo mice mouses now with the scrolling thing . um . project manager: yeah . i mean we are marketing to sort of twenty five to thirty five , user interface: yeah . project manager: so most people will have come in contact with that kind of use . user interface: s yeah . so they 'd be able to use that um , as i said i think i i 'd presume it would come up on the screen . project manager: yeah . user interface: um so there you go . project manager: and that means tha that means you get to bump that bit to the tv maker , so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: oh . user interface: so that 's um the user interface project manager: 'kay . user interface: design . project manager: industrial designer: okay . user interface: so okay , i 'll take this out now then . industrial designer: um so project manager: user interface: there you go . industrial designer: i guess there are a lot of options that we 're gon na have to choose from among , project manager: yeah , looks like it . industrial designer: and i 'll i 'll give you the uh , i guess , technical considerations for those . user interface: mm . project manager: uh user interface: industrial designer: and i 'm gon na use the whiteboard , just 'cause we have n't used it . project manager: yeah , i was just thinking the self same thing . user interface: industrial designer: right . so , the way i 'm gon na do this is uh we 're gon na take a look at some old remote controls , see how they work , uh reuse the the vital kind of um essential pieces of it , project manager: industrial designer: and then we 'll throw in our new innovations um and keep it all within budget . project manager: magic man . industrial designer: so uh yeah , looking inside a a very simple remote control . um this is what they sent me . 'kay . here 's uh the competition , i suppose . project manager: industrial designer: um you open it up , there 's a circuit board inside , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and there 's a a chip , a processor , the t_a_ one one eight three five , which um receives input from the buttons , and ch project manager: so this is a standard off the shelf kind of a chip , is it ? industrial designer: right , it 's very they 're very cheap remote . this remote costs nothing , you know . um so that takes a signals from the buttons and translates it into a sequence of pulses that it then sends to the to the amplifier , which is made of some transistors and amplifiers , op-amps , and then that gets sent to the uh to the l_e_d_ light , which i can kinda see is that little red light bulb at the end , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and that sends out the infrared uh light signal to the television . project manager: right . industrial designer: oh here it is . um so this is kind of the the bear essentials that we need to have in our remote control , because it it defines the uh project manager: okay . so can we make them to pretty much any size we like or is there a minimum or ? industrial designer: r um no , i mean this is a very old one , so now with the new technology this is a a minimally small and cheap thing to make . project manager: they got ta be almost a key-ring . industrial designer: right . so this is what we need to have for certain . project manager: okay . industrial designer: um . so you know , as we said , we got the outer casing , which we have to decide , you know , what 's it gon na be , um the board we have to use basically uh the same set-up , processor , um we 'll probably use the more advanced processor than they had , amplifier and transmitter are all standard . um so for the casing , uh this an e-mail i got from our manufacturing team uh , you know , we have a bunch of options from wood , titanium , rubber , plastic , whatnot , um latex , double-curved , curved . so lots of choices , user interface: project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: what do we think ? uh or sponge , i guess , is n't on there , right . project manager: well . user interface: mm . i 'm not sure about the sponge . industrial designer: organic sponge . project manager: well , i mean like la latex has a kinda spongy feeling to it , does n't it . industrial designer: uh yeah , it 's very elasticy for sure . project manager: um yeah . and that would k also give it kinda durability user interface: yeah . project manager: and user interface: yeah . industrial designer: um . project manager: and ther that 's also f sorta relatively cheap to cast . industrial designer: yeah so project manager: um so maybe s uh a sort of uh plastic initial plastic with a a latex kinda sheath ? industrial designer: okay so , here are a a plastic , uh latex user interface: i like the rubber , the stress balls , i think , project manager: oh right , okay . user interface: you know , that could be a bit of a gimmick like it 's good to hold and industrial designer: oh right . project manager: i do n't know what that stuff is . industrial designer: so something with give to it . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . and user interface: and that might be quite durable and easy to chuck around . industrial designer: and the colour is yellow , right ? user interface: yeah , project manager: or at least incorporating , yeah . user interface: y yellow incorporated , yeah . industrial designer: yellow , okay . um . project manager: i mean i forgot i we 're sort of uh i do n't know what other standard silver kind of user interface: i think project manager: other parts or uh user interface: mm . yeah , the buttons w like , 'cause there 's gon na be the the cover the the rubber or the plastic casing and then the buttons in probably two different colours project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm ' kay . user interface: or i if we 're having buttons actually , industrial designer: so yellow for the body , user interface: i don project manager: um . industrial designer: and then what colour for the buttons ? project manager: um i quite like the multi-coloured buttons myself . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so multi-coloured buttons . user interface: you do have ones like um play could be green or on and off is red , and stuff like that , yeah . industrial designer: project manager: yeah or yeah a limit uh maybe even just a limited multi-colour so it it does n't look too childish , perhaps . user interface: makes it easy to use . yeah , that 's true , because that blue one did look quite hardish . industrial designer: okay . project manager: yeah . although i mean this uh uh also comes to shape as well . i mean if we are gon na make it a novel i mean double-curved sounds good to me if we 're talking about sorta ergonomic and easy use , industrial designer: okay . user interface: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: a bit comfier , you know . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm 'kay so the shape we wan na go um how exactly ? maybe double user interface: like uh an hour glass kind of figure , is that what you 're thinking of , project manager: yeah it 's uh , yeah , that that 'd be that 's sort of comfortable to hold , easy to hold so you do n't drop it . user interface: or just like a it 's not industrial designer: what about a banana ? user interface: yeah . project manager: user interface: we could make novelty remote controls . industrial designer: yeah ? okay , like we could have a big banana shaped remote control , project manager: well , yeah , i mean like industrial designer: 'cause it 's yellow fruit , user interface: industrial designer: right ? project manager: yeah , yeah . mm and a lemon might be a little hard to grip . yeah . user interface: yeah . but then how would you point it ? marketing: ah industrial designer: marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . user interface: how would you point it ? industrial designer: oh i it does n't matter which end you point , i guess . user interface: what industrial designer: we could have a little l_e_d_s on each end . marketing: yeah , i appreciate this idea , project manager: they only cost pennies . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: because then this this will help us in our advertisement also project manager: marketing: and we can relate with fruits and vegetables , the people 's choices . that what our data shows that , so this w this w user interface: yeah . project manager: huh ? user interface: y i 'm i 'm not sure about the banana idea . marketing: project manager: um . industrial designer: so a spongy banana re marketing: project manager: i mean that that th user interface: rubber banana . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: does user interface: okay . project manager: it does seem a bit uh again childish maybe . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay , okay . user interface: i think maybe just draw on the kind of fruit and vegetable shape . and what else did you say about fashions ? what was trendy ? marketing: uh the fashion trend shows that fruits and vegetables , project manager: s industrial designer: see marketing: like people uh now project manager: and sponginess . industrial designer: so maybe an an unidentifiable fruit or fiable fruit or vegetable user interface: and spongy , yeah . marketing: spongy . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: like so it would have a stem perhaps user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and a user interface: maybe , yeah . industrial designer: maybe a it 'd be s axially symmetric . project manager: huh . user interface: like what 's what 's that , i do n't even know the name of it , some kind of , you know where it 's like looks like a little snowman kind of thing . i do n't know the name of that . industrial designer: so it 'd look like this kinda . user interface: yeah , that 's what i was thinking . industrial designer: like a gourd almost , or a squash of some sort ? project manager: uh . user interface: yeah , maybe that 's what they are . project manager: user interface: 'cause that you can hold it in like the bottom bit industrial designer: yeah , user interface: and industrial designer: and it has a a clear top and bottom so y so you could say , you know , it transmits from this end . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , why the hell not . let 's that 'll make us fifty million euros . user interface: i do n't know . what do you guy what do you think ? industrial designer: project manager: um . well , i guess it 's kind of dra uh you do n't necessarily have to have it sort of clearly identified as a fruit just to have that kind of fruitish shape , user interface: no . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah ? user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , then only we can relate it with something . project manager: yeah , we can relate it by advertising or marketing: yeah . exactly . industrial designer: okay , so double-curved , single-curved , what do we feel ? project manager: yeah . marketing: or we can do something , we can design two three shapes and we can have a public survey , let the public choose what they want . user interface: uh-huh . industrial designer: okay . project manager: there 's a good man . there 's a good idea . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay um , i guess , since you 're the marketing guy . marketing: yeah , sure . i will be happy to do that . project manager: industrial designer: we 'll uh okay , we could do that . um . user interface: okay . and buttons would , did we say ? uh different shapes of buttons ? industrial designer: project manager: um i l i su i mean for the specific functions , you know , up and down , uh play , stop . user interface: mm . industrial designer: okay , so project manager: they 've got , i mean , they 've got standard sort of intuitive um industrial designer: so buttons . project manager: things that are always used . industrial designer: okay , just like that . user interface: project manager: that 's cool . user interface: yeah . project manager: i like it . industrial designer: okay . project manager: um . industrial designer: with the scroll-wheel or no ? user interface: yeah , what about the scroll wheel and speech recognition ? project manager: uh speech recognition , i think , so we need a microphone presumably . industrial designer: okay uh i could put the microphone here . project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: okay there 's the microphone . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: where should i put the microphone ? project manager: i mean ho h h wel are we sure that scroll wheel does give ease of use ? user interface: yeah , i 'm not sure . um i mean those ideas i saw were just for inspiration , i think . project manager: glad , we 're not doing this for real . user interface: um yeah , i can no i 'm not sure . industrial designer: okay , well we can do some user test with scroll-wheels , right ? user interface: i couldn yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: and uh i think if this this new software for the sound recognition is the microphone industrial designer: okay . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so should the microphone be just anywhere on it or project manager: i would put it sort of sub-centrally , so it 's yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: 'kay there 's the mic . project manager: so it can be sort of held and w user interface: that 's cool . industrial designer: project manager: we really need really gon na need to hold it , if it 's gon na be voice recognition . industrial designer: um n well we can whoops . project manager: oops . user interface: industrial designer: um . project manager: um . user interface: so let 's not use the whiteboard any more . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: marketing: industrial designer: um . marketing: project manager: upsidaisy . industrial designer: oops , sorry . okay . user interface: and uh so what else was there ? um the industrial designer: project manager: user interface: what about the glow-in-the-dark thing , the strip around it ? project manager: i s i still like it . user interface: are we just gon na leave that ? project manager: um but that 's me . user interface: you still like it . 'cause we 've got the uh technological innovation with the speech recognition system . industrial designer: right . project manager: yes , or maybe it 's just going a bit uh too far . i mean we are pushing it probably with funny fruit shapes . user interface: 'cause um it could yeah . project manager: um do n't wan na sort of overkill . user interface: especially with yellow . mm . i dunno . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: 'cause i mean like uh if we i mean how good is the speech recognition thing ? do we want to go for buttons at all , do we want to just have a device that maybe sits and pretends it 's a fruit ? user interface: then you put it in the fruit bowl ? industrial designer: they can work from a project manager: yeah , you know , and then you just tal industrial designer: you do n't have to hold it . project manager: i mean like everybody 's got fruit bowl in front of the telly . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i it could even encourage healthier habits for television watchers , project manager: um . industrial designer: you know they have uh fruits all round them . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . make them make them think of fruit , yeah . industrial designer: now just make sure they do n't eat the remote . marketing: yeah . project manager: i mean uh some uh i user interface: yeah , do we need buttons ? project manager: l like think of a fruit that could sit sort of independently on its own like uh , i dunno , an apple . user interface: mm . project manager: then it 's just apple so sort of industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh , yellow apples though hmm . user interface: i quite like the shape . i quite like the design of that , uh 'cause that could sit on its own and it 's quite got a quite steady base . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . okay , yeah , that 's good . industrial designer: okay . but yeah project manager: groovy . user interface: um project manager: user interface: and as we say we n we do n't wan na be too ridiculous with the fruit things you know . project manager: yeah , . industrial designer: but yeah , about the speech thing , it does n't have to be hand held or close . user interface: industrial designer: it can sit at a distance and pick it up still . project manager: yeah . so i mean like you could actually user interface: okay . marketing: or we can project manager: yeah , gives you the options . marketing: we can do one thing , we can just have a remote control and casings of different different shapes , different fruit shapes in such a way that a any casing can be could be fit into this mobile general piece . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so whatever people want , like if somebody want it in banana shape , we will put that casing onto that mobile phone , okay , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so a selection of casings . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: it will look l uh yeah . in that w project manager: it kind of fi it fits with f fits with marketing um user interface: yeah , 'cause you said about disposable , marketing: s s sorry ? user interface: did n't you ? you said about disposable earli people want disposable things marketing: uh like if this is a like if this is a mobile phone uh we will design casing in such a way like half of , we need not to have a full cover , we will just have a half of cover , project manager: user interface: so we could do that , like have a choice . yeah . marketing: okay ? if somebody wants it i in banana shape , we will fit banana shape casing onto that , so it will give a banana shape look . project manager: like like mobiles , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: if somebody wanted in apple shape we will design that , we will put we will put apple shape casing on that . it will give apple shape look . so in that way you can have any , that means whatever you want , user interface: okay . project manager: user interface: okay . marketing: without uh yeah . user interface: we still need the buttons in the same places thought , marketing: yeah , button will be on the upper side , buttons will be the on the upper side . user interface: do n't we ? project manager: you can standardise those , i mean . user interface: marketing: yeah , buttons will be on the upper side , lower side we will just put the casing , user interface: oh , that 's the other side . oh , okay . marketing: so half of that will be look the user interface: oh , half a fruit . oh , okay , okay . marketing: yeah , not not the upper side . so from lower you can , it means while you are holding of from this side you c you can have banana look or apple look , whatever . user interface: okay , okay . marketing: so in that way we need not to d have different different shape mobiles everything , we will just design casings fruit shape . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: and project manager: i think tho i think if you 're gon na have a facia then you 'd want to have it so that it does go over the buttons , user interface: okay . project manager: 'cause when if you think about it if they 're wanting it , 'cause they want to look at it , if they 're using it , and what they want to look at is facing away from them . it does n't really user interface: mm mm . project manager: you know 'cause that 'd be in the palm of their hand and they would n't be able to see it , user interface: yeah . project manager: unless you have sort of you got the buttons options on one side , and you get the facia on the other side with a microphone so that you can place it face down . and you 've got the facia , and you can just talk at the user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: maybe . industrial designer: okay , um so marketing: project manager: so you 've narrowed it down to half a dozen options . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: industrial designer: s i guess we decided on material , right ? so that that spongy latex rubber everything feel , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and the colours we got down , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and the shape , maybe we 'll just make it kinda mix and match type of shape or project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . well , um because well , i i 'm not sure if we should go so far in the whole fruit thing , because i think we should maybe just take the inspiration from the fruit and uh because what project manager: okay , so we stick with what we 've got there . user interface: yeah , w i think wh wha would we 're trying to get to twenty five , thirty five year olds who want it quite trendy as well they said . they wanted something that looks fancy and i think maybe fruit could be a bit of a too much of a gimmick , but something ergonomically shaped and organic , like good to hold , based on fruits and natural things like that , project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: because al already we 're going a bit gaudy with the yellow , you know . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: i mean we could make it nice pale yellow . project manager: well , it 's kind of got ta be our company 's yellow . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . project manager: so again i mean like we could have , uh i mean , we could quite easily have the the main body be a different user interface: okay . yeah . project manager: colour , but have user interface: maybe we could have that pale yellow and then an outside bit bright yellow with , you said , the logan the slogan . project manager: kinda going round , yeah . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um i mean e even if user interface: because project manager: i mean not necessarily that the um the whole body has to be of the company colour , so you know um blue and yellow tend to go to we well together . user interface: yeah . project manager: so you have the main body blue with the yellow logo and slogan running up one side of it kind of thing . user interface: yeah . yeah . uh-huh . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: w sort of industrial designer: great . um as for the energy source um , you know , almost every remote control uses just batteries , but we do n't have to be limited by that . we can use a hand-dynamo . um i do n't know what that means , we crank it ? project manager: uh it 's i think it 's basically the more you move i it , it 's got a wee thing inside that just kinda powers it . industrial designer: right , it 's like those watches that you c project manager: uh yeah . industrial designer: so , this might be an idea for something that people really wan na grab , you can shake it if it 's out of power . user interface: oh , a d a dynamo ? marketing: yeah , . project manager: yeah , i like that , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: user interface: yeah , like with those watches that you kind of twist . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah that 's quite cool . industrial designer: okay . so if it if it 's not working , i guess people 's natural reaction anyway is to just shake the thing . marketing: but project manager: okay . you shake it and scream at it . marketing: but but do you think that it will be a good idea to use dynamo , tha these type of cells ? project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , it is , yeah . marketing: because then people have to , well like if the cell is out of bat project manager: it does leave them with an obligation to marketing: yeah , to mo yeah . project manager: especially if they want to use it uh uh sp uh specifically as um voice activated . marketing: yeah , industrial designer: right . marketing: because most of the people project manager: then if it 's just sitting on the user interface: yeah , then they have to pick it up and then activate it and then yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , okay . industrial designer: okay . user interface: that 's true . project manager: right um what are the other options ? industrial designer: uh there 's solar power . um . marketing: uh , solar power will w also not be a good idea , because then they have to keep m their mobiles outside in solar energy , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: and the days when there is no sola sunlight project manager: i 'm i 'm with uh raj on that , industrial designer: okay , so probably just marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: i think , you know , marketing: what we w project manager: i 've got i 've got no i 've got a north facing house , there 's not really ever sun coming in my window . user interface: marketing: yeah . i think we should a rechargeable battery will be a good idea . user interface: but w like just normal light ? project manager: oh that 's true . marketing: they can they can recharge it . project manager: i mean i w i w uh user interface: project manager: that idea that i thought um just on the basis of like ridding them of batteries and that kind of bother industrial designer: mm . project manager: is having a , user interface: and we 're a very environmentally friendly company , are n't we as well ? project manager: yeah , marketing: yeah . project manager: having a rechargeable stand , so that not only it doubles as a stand , but um for using it as uh recharging it , but also for using it as sound recognition . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: 'kay . user interface: like like a hand like one of those portable phones kind of thing . marketing: yeah , that 's yeah , exactly . project manager: yeah that kind of thing . industrial designer: okay . so uh a rechargeable battery . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . um the user interface , the buttons , i guess we talked about this already . project manager: rechargeable . user interface: mm . industrial designer: um . project manager: . what 's chip on print ? what 's industrial designer: hmm ? project manager: sorry , never mind . industrial designer: uh th the uh the electronics um , basically the more features we add um oops , this one . so the more features we add the fancier chips we need to buy and put in , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: which adds to the cost as you can expect . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um . but uh i think we can keep it all under budget . so uh yes , so the speech thing you said our our techno our research and development department came up with some break-through . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so just in time . project manager: yeah , and if we if we 're just having buttons and the speech then we 're getting our cheapest option of chipping . user interface: just in time . industrial designer: right , right . project manager: that 's good . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: uh woah . industrial designer: and keeping the lcd screen out . project manager: okay , we 're we 're kind of uh we 're kind of um excuse m i 've just deleted that whole thing . um we 're kind of running out of time , so if you could uh . was that you ? industrial designer: huh ? project manager: um that was your bit 's covered , industrial designer: oh yeah that was that was it . project manager: i just dele i just accidentally deleted what i was supposed to say next . industrial designer: marketing: uh excuse me , bri project manager: um , yeah . industrial designer: so control f_ eight , right ? project manager: oh , yeah . user interface: yeah , mine seems to have turned off . project manager: and i just touch the pad . user interface: i ca n't do anything . marketing: you just touch the pad , yeah . user interface: no . marketing: no ? project manager: it 's actually shut down . user interface: it 's on , but there 's nothing on the screen . project manager: okay , um now what we have industrial designer: try uh flipping the screen down . project manager: uh our next meeting 's in half an hour industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: and what i would like you guys to do is work on giving me a model in clay . industrial designer: oh , user interface: industrial designer: i get to do it , too . project manager: yeah . it 's you guys . yeah . industrial designer: oh neat . user interface: cool . project manager: so um , you know i mean , luckily we chose a nice simple shape . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah . mm . project manager: um and further instructions will be sent by your personal coaches . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . save everything to the shared documents , is that right ? marketing: that 's great . project manager: uh yeah , i hope i can recover this , 'cause i 've accidentally deleted it . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: which does n't really help me much . user interface: i think , i 've saved mine already . project manager: yeah , can you save that uh send that last one again , please , raj , marketing: yeah . project manager: as i still ca n't find it on the marketing: uh it was under a different name . project manager: marketing: i will show you , in shared documents . project manager: okay . marketing: uh working components . oh , you did n't get that . i will send new . project manager: no . okay , thank you . marketing: uh i 'll put it in shared documents , again . project manager: um yeah , project , project documents . marketing: project documents , sorry , i put it in the shared documents . project manager: uh right , marketing: uh yeah . project manager: that 's that 's the that it goes there automatically if you put it in project documents . project documents is on the um desktop . marketing: right , that 's great . but i cou ca n't open that , because it w asks uh for some username or password . industrial designer: oh . project manager: really ? marketing: i 'll show you . industrial designer: uh these lapel mics are trouble . marketing: ts project manager: oh right , i think um marketing: sorry . project manager: hold on . marketing: uh . project manager: yeah , i do n't know if y it it just ca it just came up on my um on my agenda . s um presumably there 's clay somewhere . um . four . marketing: yeah , that 's great . project manager: whoops . light , light , please . light . right , there you go . marketing: yeah , th thank you . project manager: yeah , quite . and we 're using this our basic chip set , so it 's all good . marketing: oh sorry . industrial designer: are we done with our meeting ? marketing: uh excuse me , brian . project manager: um i think we 're almost done , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: you have to keep your pen separate , because i used your pen . project manager: oh oops . marketing: s project manager: sorry man . uh okay , still did n't manage to get down all the last bits so we had rechargeable and uh . apples . mm-mm-mm-mm-mm . 'kay , so we came up with that , that 's okay . what 's supplements ? supplements . uh uh . see . user interface: cool . fun . project manager: i shoulda something like that . if i kn see i i knew that . i shoulda sort of engineered it so we k ended up making a diffi difficult shape . user interface: marketing: hmm . project manager: just for cruelty . marketing: hmm . user interface: yeah . star fruit . project manager: i wonder if they mean like literally make it , sort of buttons and everything . marketing: so sh should should we leave now , brian ? user interface: no . oh yeah , we can do buttons . marketing: or we are going to discuss something ? project manager: um . uh no , i think that 's us our discussion over unless anybody 's got questions or confusions , marketing: user interface: no i 'm good . project manager: 'cause i 'm confused . marketing: yeah . project manager: huh ? user interface: okay . marketing: excuse me . project manager: um uh we 'll probably get questionnaire in a minute , it 's a user interface: mm . project manager: marketing: sorry . thank you . yeah . project manager: there we go . warning , finish meeting now . marketing: so . project manager: i rounded it up far too fast . um . where are we going ? my documents , that 's not what i want . my project documents . there we go .

the user interface showed the pictures of one kind of remotes with scrolls on it , working as the middle buttons . if the consumers wanted to find a certain item , they just needed to scroll it and when they reached the required ones , they pressed the middle of the scroll . although the team was not satisfied with the colour , shape and buttons of the existing , they all agreed that the function of a scroll was a good idea .

summarize the discussion about the features and appearances of the new remotes . </s> project manager: um we are so the meeting will have about the same format as the last time . so switching over i 've just left uh my first two screens . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: um mailed you the minutes of the last meeting uh just to save time . user interface: okay . cool . project manager: um and is there any questions you have that arised from last meeting that are particularly bothering you ? n user interface: mm um . no , i do n't think so . project manager: no ? okay , cool . industrial designer: no . project manager: then we shall start with a presentation from raj . marketing: yeah . hi , me raj , again . uh in this meeting i i 'm going to discuss about the trend watching , uh how these trends is going to affect our market potential and how important is this . so we have to look on this . first of all methodology . the met methodology to find out the trend was incl uh was done in a way we have done a rec not only a recent remote control market survey , but we also considered the latest fre fashion trends of the market , because we think that this is also a factor which will affect our sales and profit . so what are our findings ? in our uh in our findings we have seen that when we did our remote control market survey we found that uh people l uh people do have preference for tho fancy mobi uh f remote controls which look and feel very good , rather than having a functional look and feel uh good . so this sh this clearly indicates their preference for the design their outlook of the remote controls . so we should take into uh we should consider this factor as the most important factor , because this factor is twice as important , the second factor which is further ti twice the as important as the sec as uh the third factor . so this factor becomes the most important factor in our surv uh uh in our mark uh means in take in designing our rem uh remote controls . user interface: the last one is the most important one , is it ? marketing: no the first one is the user interface: oh , sorry . marketing: uh the outlook of the mobile , the it should have a fancy outlook , project manager: user interface: okay . marketing: the fancy design uh rather than just having a functional look and feel good , it should have a fancy look and foo feel good . user interface: okay . marketing: the second most important aspect is that remote control should be a technologically uh innovative . we must have some technological advancement in the remote control tha rather than just putting it as it is as the other remo uh remote controls are . so it uh should be technologically innovative like glow-in-the-dark or speech recognition , something like that . project manager: marketing: so that indicates our technological advancement . and the third most important aspect in the ta to take into consideration is that it should be easy to use , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: like it should n't be too much co complicated , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: there should n't be too many buttons on this mobi uh remote control , it should n't be too complicated uh like this way . and it should be uh and customers should be provided with manuals that is easy to understand in their local language , something . so that they could know how to use these remote controls . when we did uh f fashions uh , recent fashion uh our recent fashion update shows that user interface: sorry . industrial designer: marketing: ah yeah ? user interface: i was just reading fruit and vegetables . project manager: user interface: hard to know how we are going to incorporate that . marketing: y yeah uh yeah , we have to , because uh d you can see how people have related their clothes , shoes , and everything with fruits and vegetables , project manager: user interface: marketing: because the g world is now changing it 's trend towards organic , becoming more and more organic , user interface: okay . yeah . industrial designer: we should make a big sponge lemon , marketing: becoming industrial designer: and then it 'd be it would be yellow . marketing: yeah . project manager: user interface: yeah . industrial designer: it 's marketing: so user interface: th that 's very good . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . so something like that we we should do . user interface: glow-in-the-dark . okay . marketing: and people uh the f feel of the material is expected to be spongy rather than just having a plastic look , hard look . industrial designer: mm . user interface: well , that 's good . marketing: yeah . yeah . user interface: that 's what we kind of predicted anyway . marketing: so so that they could play with it while handi uh while handling it . so that should also be taken into consideration . user interface: okay . okay . marketing: so these are my views . user interface: okay . marketing: so user interface: okay , the spongy , not real spongy , you can marketing: no it ca y a user interface: do you think like rubber would be good or does it really want to be like gel kind of stuff ? marketing: the rubber which is good for health and which is quite disposable that we can take into co user interface: okay . quite disposable . marketing: yeah . 'cause we it should n't be have any harm to the environment also , user interface: okay . marketing: because our company is very well for taking all these concerns into consideration , project manager: alright , okay . user interface: oh okay . marketing: so we do n't want to have any harm to the society , user interface: uh-huh . okay . marketing: so project manager: fashion . user interface: project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: cool . marketing: so that 's all . project manager: fruit and veg , well there you go . user interface: project manager: just what i think of when i think of a remote control . user interface: mm . industrial designer: user interface: a remote control ? yeah . marketing: user interface: and were there any factors that were n't important in the survey , that they said we do n't want ? marketing: s uh we did n't find out any such point . user interface: or was it just okay . marketing: uh yes , there could be , but we could n't find out any , so project manager: mm-mm-mm-mm . user interface: cool . project manager: mm-mm-mm-mm-mm . user interface: f_ , what is it ? um . project manager: function f_ eight . user interface: yeah . project manager: hmm . user interface: okay . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: oh no , . user interface: no signal . is that ? industrial designer: no , it 's got it 's got it . marketing: yeah , uh yeah , uh yeah . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: excuse me . user interface: okay , and then f_ five , right ? project manager: uh , yeah . user interface: okay . um okay , so the interface concept um . yeah . the interface specification , what people um how they interact with it basically , i think . um so the method , we looked at existing designs , what are the what 's good about them , what 's bad about them , um i looked at their flaws , so we 're going to look at their flaws , everything . um and what the survey told us and what we think would be good , so a bit of imagination . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: uh the findings , i 've got some pictures to show you as well . project manager: either . industrial designer: marketing: hmm . user interface: yeah . okay , so most remote controls use graphical interface , where you um have got s buttons and you point it rather than having the output as a a stream of text or something . project manager: uh okay . user interface: um and we also found that there 's inconsistent layout , which makes it confusing . so i think for our remote control there is some inconsistency already in ec existing in between remote controls , but i think standard kind of um shape and uh play and those kind of but buttons like the the top right for on and off or something , project manager: right , okay . yeah . user interface: i think , people find that important , 'cause then it 's easy to use . project manager: user interface: and we 've got some pictures of some uh new remote controls to show you . project manager: excellent . user interface: do i press escape f_ five ? or just project manager: uh no just escape should uh user interface: escape , okay . um , oh i still have n't got my glasses on . yeah , okay . so these are the some of the pictures of existing ones . project manager: industrial designer: wow . user interface: i 'll just walk you through them . this one is a voice recognition . project manager: 'kay . user interface: and that 's the kind of idea we 're going for . project manager: looks pretty complicated . user interface: there 's um an lcd thing , which we thought could i thought could get a bit confusing and a bit expensive as well for us . project manager: right , okay . user interface: this one is got a kind of scroll like a mouse , project manager: mm-hmm , like the middle button . user interface: which yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: um and but i 'm not exactly sure how you 'd use that , industrial designer: project manager: ah it 's kinda like scrolling user interface: like would the computer come project manager: uh right , well , if i s if i 'm thinking of the right one , i 've got the same thing in front of my monitor , you scroll it and the when you reach the sort of um menu item that you require , you press the middle of the scroll . user interface: uh-huh , that 's like the lcd one , project manager: right , okay . user interface: is it ? but the one below that has got like a little scroll function on the side . but i presume that the functions must come up on the tv screen . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , presumably . user interface: i think that 's what that is . so these are just a few ideas . again that 's just quite boring shape , grey , looks quite space-agey , but too many buttons , i think on that one . industrial designer: uh it looks threatening . project manager: yeah , looks like uh looks like something out of a jet . user interface: yeah , it does look kind of dangerous . industrial designer: it looks like yeah . marketing: hmm . user interface: um this one i thought was really cool . it 's w it 's got the programmability function that we talked about . industrial designer: user interface: you can put it in there , it 's for your kids , and it 's quite an organic shape and the little circle around there is pretty cool . project manager: okay . user interface: and that 's really easy to use , bright , so i like this one lot for our design . i think something like that would be good . industrial designer: wow . project manager: yeah , i m i mean the one thing i think about about these ones is um these kl uh secured areas um , i 've seen a lot of them with the the cover missing . user interface: of course yellow . project manager: so like have it hinge rather than sort of clip on or whatever . user interface: right , yeah . yeah , that 's true . yeah . um so maybe that could be built into one of the things and it comes up on the tv or something . and this one , the over-sized one , i do n't know about you , but i think it 's a bit too gimmicky . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: user interface: i do n't think that will sell very well . project manager: i mean is that not sort of to assist the blind or something , is it ? user interface: i guess so . i do n't know . industrial designer: then d blind do n't watch tv . project manager: strange . user interface: i think that 's a bit yeah exactly . project manager: no they do , they do . industrial designer: they do ? project manager: they listen to it . yeah . user interface: yeah . and um this one is just pointing out . i like some of these things um the the raised symbols and everything , but pointing out um that this one the volume it is kind of pressing down , but it would actually go up , because of the shape . project manager: right , okay . user interface: so that could that 's a bit confusing . um but the buttons on this i think are it 's just showing you how you can have different different um buttons . they do n't have to be all the same . so that 's quite cool . um . project manager: 'kay but people tend to recognise certain shapes to do certain things anyway , do n't they ? user interface: yeah , exactly . um f_ five . yes . so there are some of the findings . so we need to combine those ones um industrial designer: user interface: and i 've just got an e-mail from our technical department saying that they have broken through with some new speech recognition software that you can program in . project manager: brilliant . that 's handy . user interface: um yeah it is , just in time , very handy . um so i think maybe incorporating that in our design would be good . project manager: okay . user interface: it 's you program it like you say , record , um and then , play , and then , record , play machine , and stuff like that , so that 's and it 's much yeah . so that 's quite cool . uh personal preferences just some imagination , the raised symbols i thought were good , the lcd , it does look smart , but i think maybe for our budget , do you think that would be a bit too expensive to have the industrial designer: the lcd user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and the other stuff uh , i think . user interface: and the speech recognition , 'cause i think we 're definitely going for the speech recognition , marketing: but in our market survey we have seen that people are willing to pay more , user interface: are we ? marketing: but they want the quality , they want f fancy look , they want some new design , something new . user interface: uh-huh . project manager: okay . marketing: uh yeah . user interface: uh-huh . but our budget , we 've project manager: it 's still it 's still got to get within our twelve fifty , you know . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so even if we increase our cost little bit , within uh some limits , and we give something new technological advancement as well as new design with fancy outlook , i think we will meet the requirements and we will be able to have a good sales in the market . user interface: uh-huh . okay . project manager: okay . user interface: i 'm not sure if the if for twenty five euros uh per uh twelve euros fifty m manufacturing cost , . industrial designer: ben bana project manager: yeah . i ca n't see tha although , th i mean to be to be sure they have got i mean they are going crazy with the lcd technology now , industrial designer: user interface: the lcd . project manager: so that you 've got your lcd tvs and everything so maybe the small industrial designer: project manager: but i mean like i i the black and white , i guess , it just does n't look funky enough . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: um but , i mean , like even mobile phones or whatever have now have colour lcd screens , user interface: no . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: w i ju i mean user interface: yeah . s project manager: i would n't know about the costs of them . user interface: uh-huh . industrial designer: but uh price price not withstanding um , is it too complicated , is it gon na be too much just overload ? marketing: and the project manager: twelve fifty . marketing: uh i it will be easy because there will be , on lcd s screen , there will be different frent icons , they can just click ok okay , whatever they wa project manager: possibly . user interface: yeah , that 's the thing , because industrial designer: but but the thing is when you use a remote control , you never look at it , right ? you 're looking at the tv project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and and it 's uh project manager: yeah . user interface: that 's true , yeah . industrial designer: it just seems kind of like a a needless th user interface: and one of the survey findings was that they want it easy to use , so i think i 'm not sure about the lcd . project manager: right . user interface: it 's a it 's great , it 's a good idea , but for our budget and for the thing we 're trying to go for eas easy to use , it 's not the thing we should go for , i think . child-friendly , i thought this was good , as you pointed out the um the bit , it often goes missing especially with children , but it 's a good shape and the organic is kind of we could make a vegetabley kind of round shape , i think . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so which vegetable ? project manager: well i mean we could make a user interface: yeah , i know , carrot . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: well , si since we 're going for the uh the k the sort of company colours , i think your lemon was n't that far s industrial designer: the the lemon . well what are the options ? user interface: yeah . project manager: and if it does n't work you know , we 've just made a lemon . user interface: but we do n't want it to be yeah . um the child-friendly , yeah . easy to use , it seems quite easy to use . i like the d the different shapes of the buttons and stuff . project manager: mm-hmm . i like i like the colourful buttons as well . user interface: i think that 's a good idea to go for . yeah . and the mouse one , i thought it was a good idea , because people use mo mice mouses now with the scrolling thing . um . project manager: yeah . i mean we are marketing to sort of twenty five to thirty five , user interface: yeah . project manager: so most people will have come in contact with that kind of use . user interface: s yeah . so they 'd be able to use that um , as i said i think i i 'd presume it would come up on the screen . project manager: yeah . user interface: um so there you go . project manager: and that means tha that means you get to bump that bit to the tv maker , so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: oh . user interface: so that 's um the user interface project manager: 'kay . user interface: design . project manager: industrial designer: okay . user interface: so okay , i 'll take this out now then . industrial designer: um so project manager: user interface: there you go . industrial designer: i guess there are a lot of options that we 're gon na have to choose from among , project manager: yeah , looks like it . industrial designer: and i 'll i 'll give you the uh , i guess , technical considerations for those . user interface: mm . project manager: uh user interface: industrial designer: and i 'm gon na use the whiteboard , just 'cause we have n't used it . project manager: yeah , i was just thinking the self same thing . user interface: industrial designer: right . so , the way i 'm gon na do this is uh we 're gon na take a look at some old remote controls , see how they work , uh reuse the the vital kind of um essential pieces of it , project manager: industrial designer: and then we 'll throw in our new innovations um and keep it all within budget . project manager: magic man . industrial designer: so uh yeah , looking inside a a very simple remote control . um this is what they sent me . 'kay . here 's uh the competition , i suppose . project manager: industrial designer: um you open it up , there 's a circuit board inside , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and there 's a a chip , a processor , the t_a_ one one eight three five , which um receives input from the buttons , and ch project manager: so this is a standard off the shelf kind of a chip , is it ? industrial designer: right , it 's very they 're very cheap remote . this remote costs nothing , you know . um so that takes a signals from the buttons and translates it into a sequence of pulses that it then sends to the to the amplifier , which is made of some transistors and amplifiers , op-amps , and then that gets sent to the uh to the l_e_d_ light , which i can kinda see is that little red light bulb at the end , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and that sends out the infrared uh light signal to the television . project manager: right . industrial designer: oh here it is . um so this is kind of the the bear essentials that we need to have in our remote control , because it it defines the uh project manager: okay . so can we make them to pretty much any size we like or is there a minimum or ? industrial designer: r um no , i mean this is a very old one , so now with the new technology this is a a minimally small and cheap thing to make . project manager: they got ta be almost a key-ring . industrial designer: right . so this is what we need to have for certain . project manager: okay . industrial designer: um . so you know , as we said , we got the outer casing , which we have to decide , you know , what 's it gon na be , um the board we have to use basically uh the same set-up , processor , um we 'll probably use the more advanced processor than they had , amplifier and transmitter are all standard . um so for the casing , uh this an e-mail i got from our manufacturing team uh , you know , we have a bunch of options from wood , titanium , rubber , plastic , whatnot , um latex , double-curved , curved . so lots of choices , user interface: project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: what do we think ? uh or sponge , i guess , is n't on there , right . project manager: well . user interface: mm . i 'm not sure about the sponge . industrial designer: organic sponge . project manager: well , i mean like la latex has a kinda spongy feeling to it , does n't it . industrial designer: uh yeah , it 's very elasticy for sure . project manager: um yeah . and that would k also give it kinda durability user interface: yeah . project manager: and user interface: yeah . industrial designer: um . project manager: and ther that 's also f sorta relatively cheap to cast . industrial designer: yeah so project manager: um so maybe s uh a sort of uh plastic initial plastic with a a latex kinda sheath ? industrial designer: okay so , here are a a plastic , uh latex user interface: i like the rubber , the stress balls , i think , project manager: oh right , okay . user interface: you know , that could be a bit of a gimmick like it 's good to hold and industrial designer: oh right . project manager: i do n't know what that stuff is . industrial designer: so something with give to it . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . and user interface: and that might be quite durable and easy to chuck around . industrial designer: and the colour is yellow , right ? user interface: yeah , project manager: or at least incorporating , yeah . user interface: y yellow incorporated , yeah . industrial designer: yellow , okay . um . project manager: i mean i forgot i we 're sort of uh i do n't know what other standard silver kind of user interface: i think project manager: other parts or uh user interface: mm . yeah , the buttons w like , 'cause there 's gon na be the the cover the the rubber or the plastic casing and then the buttons in probably two different colours project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm ' kay . user interface: or i if we 're having buttons actually , industrial designer: so yellow for the body , user interface: i don project manager: um . industrial designer: and then what colour for the buttons ? project manager: um i quite like the multi-coloured buttons myself . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so multi-coloured buttons . user interface: you do have ones like um play could be green or on and off is red , and stuff like that , yeah . industrial designer: project manager: yeah or yeah a limit uh maybe even just a limited multi-colour so it it does n't look too childish , perhaps . user interface: makes it easy to use . yeah , that 's true , because that blue one did look quite hardish . industrial designer: okay . project manager: yeah . although i mean this uh uh also comes to shape as well . i mean if we are gon na make it a novel i mean double-curved sounds good to me if we 're talking about sorta ergonomic and easy use , industrial designer: okay . user interface: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: a bit comfier , you know . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm 'kay so the shape we wan na go um how exactly ? maybe double user interface: like uh an hour glass kind of figure , is that what you 're thinking of , project manager: yeah it 's uh , yeah , that that 'd be that 's sort of comfortable to hold , easy to hold so you do n't drop it . user interface: or just like a it 's not industrial designer: what about a banana ? user interface: yeah . project manager: user interface: we could make novelty remote controls . industrial designer: yeah ? okay , like we could have a big banana shaped remote control , project manager: well , yeah , i mean like industrial designer: 'cause it 's yellow fruit , user interface: industrial designer: right ? project manager: yeah , yeah . mm and a lemon might be a little hard to grip . yeah . user interface: yeah . but then how would you point it ? marketing: ah industrial designer: marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . user interface: how would you point it ? industrial designer: oh i it does n't matter which end you point , i guess . user interface: what industrial designer: we could have a little l_e_d_s on each end . marketing: yeah , i appreciate this idea , project manager: they only cost pennies . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: because then this this will help us in our advertisement also project manager: marketing: and we can relate with fruits and vegetables , the people 's choices . that what our data shows that , so this w this w user interface: yeah . project manager: huh ? user interface: y i 'm i 'm not sure about the banana idea . marketing: project manager: um . industrial designer: so a spongy banana re marketing: project manager: i mean that that th user interface: rubber banana . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: does user interface: okay . project manager: it does seem a bit uh again childish maybe . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay , okay . user interface: i think maybe just draw on the kind of fruit and vegetable shape . and what else did you say about fashions ? what was trendy ? marketing: uh the fashion trend shows that fruits and vegetables , project manager: s industrial designer: see marketing: like people uh now project manager: and sponginess . industrial designer: so maybe an an unidentifiable fruit or fiable fruit or vegetable user interface: and spongy , yeah . marketing: spongy . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: like so it would have a stem perhaps user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and a user interface: maybe , yeah . industrial designer: maybe a it 'd be s axially symmetric . project manager: huh . user interface: like what 's what 's that , i do n't even know the name of it , some kind of , you know where it 's like looks like a little snowman kind of thing . i do n't know the name of that . industrial designer: so it 'd look like this kinda . user interface: yeah , that 's what i was thinking . industrial designer: like a gourd almost , or a squash of some sort ? project manager: uh . user interface: yeah , maybe that 's what they are . project manager: user interface: 'cause that you can hold it in like the bottom bit industrial designer: yeah , user interface: and industrial designer: and it has a a clear top and bottom so y so you could say , you know , it transmits from this end . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , why the hell not . let 's that 'll make us fifty million euros . user interface: i do n't know . what do you guy what do you think ? industrial designer: project manager: um . well , i guess it 's kind of dra uh you do n't necessarily have to have it sort of clearly identified as a fruit just to have that kind of fruitish shape , user interface: no . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah ? user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , then only we can relate it with something . project manager: yeah , we can relate it by advertising or marketing: yeah . exactly . industrial designer: okay , so double-curved , single-curved , what do we feel ? project manager: yeah . marketing: or we can do something , we can design two three shapes and we can have a public survey , let the public choose what they want . user interface: uh-huh . industrial designer: okay . project manager: there 's a good man . there 's a good idea . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay um , i guess , since you 're the marketing guy . marketing: yeah , sure . i will be happy to do that . project manager: industrial designer: we 'll uh okay , we could do that . um . user interface: okay . and buttons would , did we say ? uh different shapes of buttons ? industrial designer: project manager: um i l i su i mean for the specific functions , you know , up and down , uh play , stop . user interface: mm . industrial designer: okay , so project manager: they 've got , i mean , they 've got standard sort of intuitive um industrial designer: so buttons . project manager: things that are always used . industrial designer: okay , just like that . user interface: project manager: that 's cool . user interface: yeah . project manager: i like it . industrial designer: okay . project manager: um . industrial designer: with the scroll-wheel or no ? user interface: yeah , what about the scroll wheel and speech recognition ? project manager: uh speech recognition , i think , so we need a microphone presumably . industrial designer: okay uh i could put the microphone here . project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: okay there 's the microphone . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: where should i put the microphone ? project manager: i mean ho h h wel are we sure that scroll wheel does give ease of use ? user interface: yeah , i 'm not sure . um i mean those ideas i saw were just for inspiration , i think . project manager: glad , we 're not doing this for real . user interface: um yeah , i can no i 'm not sure . industrial designer: okay , well we can do some user test with scroll-wheels , right ? user interface: i couldn yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: and uh i think if this this new software for the sound recognition is the microphone industrial designer: okay . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so should the microphone be just anywhere on it or project manager: i would put it sort of sub-centrally , so it 's yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: 'kay there 's the mic . project manager: so it can be sort of held and w user interface: that 's cool . industrial designer: project manager: we really need really gon na need to hold it , if it 's gon na be voice recognition . industrial designer: um n well we can whoops . project manager: oops . user interface: industrial designer: um . project manager: um . user interface: so let 's not use the whiteboard any more . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: marketing: industrial designer: um . marketing: project manager: upsidaisy . industrial designer: oops , sorry . okay . user interface: and uh so what else was there ? um the industrial designer: project manager: user interface: what about the glow-in-the-dark thing , the strip around it ? project manager: i s i still like it . user interface: are we just gon na leave that ? project manager: um but that 's me . user interface: you still like it . 'cause we 've got the uh technological innovation with the speech recognition system . industrial designer: right . project manager: yes , or maybe it 's just going a bit uh too far . i mean we are pushing it probably with funny fruit shapes . user interface: 'cause um it could yeah . project manager: um do n't wan na sort of overkill . user interface: especially with yellow . mm . i dunno . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: 'cause i mean like uh if we i mean how good is the speech recognition thing ? do we want to go for buttons at all , do we want to just have a device that maybe sits and pretends it 's a fruit ? user interface: then you put it in the fruit bowl ? industrial designer: they can work from a project manager: yeah , you know , and then you just tal industrial designer: you do n't have to hold it . project manager: i mean like everybody 's got fruit bowl in front of the telly . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i it could even encourage healthier habits for television watchers , project manager: um . industrial designer: you know they have uh fruits all round them . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . make them make them think of fruit , yeah . industrial designer: now just make sure they do n't eat the remote . marketing: yeah . project manager: i mean uh some uh i user interface: yeah , do we need buttons ? project manager: l like think of a fruit that could sit sort of independently on its own like uh , i dunno , an apple . user interface: mm . project manager: then it 's just apple so sort of industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh , yellow apples though hmm . user interface: i quite like the shape . i quite like the design of that , uh 'cause that could sit on its own and it 's quite got a quite steady base . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . okay , yeah , that 's good . industrial designer: okay . but yeah project manager: groovy . user interface: um project manager: user interface: and as we say we n we do n't wan na be too ridiculous with the fruit things you know . project manager: yeah , . industrial designer: but yeah , about the speech thing , it does n't have to be hand held or close . user interface: industrial designer: it can sit at a distance and pick it up still . project manager: yeah . so i mean like you could actually user interface: okay . marketing: or we can project manager: yeah , gives you the options . marketing: we can do one thing , we can just have a remote control and casings of different different shapes , different fruit shapes in such a way that a any casing can be could be fit into this mobile general piece . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so whatever people want , like if somebody want it in banana shape , we will put that casing onto that mobile phone , okay , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so a selection of casings . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: it will look l uh yeah . in that w project manager: it kind of fi it fits with f fits with marketing um user interface: yeah , 'cause you said about disposable , marketing: s s sorry ? user interface: did n't you ? you said about disposable earli people want disposable things marketing: uh like if this is a like if this is a mobile phone uh we will design casing in such a way like half of , we need not to have a full cover , we will just have a half of cover , project manager: user interface: so we could do that , like have a choice . yeah . marketing: okay ? if somebody wants it i in banana shape , we will fit banana shape casing onto that , so it will give a banana shape look . project manager: like like mobiles , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: if somebody wanted in apple shape we will design that , we will put we will put apple shape casing on that . it will give apple shape look . so in that way you can have any , that means whatever you want , user interface: okay . project manager: user interface: okay . marketing: without uh yeah . user interface: we still need the buttons in the same places thought , marketing: yeah , button will be on the upper side , buttons will be the on the upper side . user interface: do n't we ? project manager: you can standardise those , i mean . user interface: marketing: yeah , buttons will be on the upper side , lower side we will just put the casing , user interface: oh , that 's the other side . oh , okay . marketing: so half of that will be look the user interface: oh , half a fruit . oh , okay , okay . marketing: yeah , not not the upper side . so from lower you can , it means while you are holding of from this side you c you can have banana look or apple look , whatever . user interface: okay , okay . marketing: so in that way we need not to d have different different shape mobiles everything , we will just design casings fruit shape . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: and project manager: i think tho i think if you 're gon na have a facia then you 'd want to have it so that it does go over the buttons , user interface: okay . project manager: 'cause when if you think about it if they 're wanting it , 'cause they want to look at it , if they 're using it , and what they want to look at is facing away from them . it does n't really user interface: mm mm . project manager: you know 'cause that 'd be in the palm of their hand and they would n't be able to see it , user interface: yeah . project manager: unless you have sort of you got the buttons options on one side , and you get the facia on the other side with a microphone so that you can place it face down . and you 've got the facia , and you can just talk at the user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: maybe . industrial designer: okay , um so marketing: project manager: so you 've narrowed it down to half a dozen options . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: industrial designer: s i guess we decided on material , right ? so that that spongy latex rubber everything feel , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and the colours we got down , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and the shape , maybe we 'll just make it kinda mix and match type of shape or project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . well , um because well , i i 'm not sure if we should go so far in the whole fruit thing , because i think we should maybe just take the inspiration from the fruit and uh because what project manager: okay , so we stick with what we 've got there . user interface: yeah , w i think wh wha would we 're trying to get to twenty five , thirty five year olds who want it quite trendy as well they said . they wanted something that looks fancy and i think maybe fruit could be a bit of a too much of a gimmick , but something ergonomically shaped and organic , like good to hold , based on fruits and natural things like that , project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: because al already we 're going a bit gaudy with the yellow , you know . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: i mean we could make it nice pale yellow . project manager: well , it 's kind of got ta be our company 's yellow . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . project manager: so again i mean like we could have , uh i mean , we could quite easily have the the main body be a different user interface: okay . yeah . project manager: colour , but have user interface: maybe we could have that pale yellow and then an outside bit bright yellow with , you said , the logan the slogan . project manager: kinda going round , yeah . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um i mean e even if user interface: because project manager: i mean not necessarily that the um the whole body has to be of the company colour , so you know um blue and yellow tend to go to we well together . user interface: yeah . project manager: so you have the main body blue with the yellow logo and slogan running up one side of it kind of thing . user interface: yeah . yeah . uh-huh . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: w sort of industrial designer: great . um as for the energy source um , you know , almost every remote control uses just batteries , but we do n't have to be limited by that . we can use a hand-dynamo . um i do n't know what that means , we crank it ? project manager: uh it 's i think it 's basically the more you move i it , it 's got a wee thing inside that just kinda powers it . industrial designer: right , it 's like those watches that you c project manager: uh yeah . industrial designer: so , this might be an idea for something that people really wan na grab , you can shake it if it 's out of power . user interface: oh , a d a dynamo ? marketing: yeah , . project manager: yeah , i like that , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: user interface: yeah , like with those watches that you kind of twist . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah that 's quite cool . industrial designer: okay . so if it if it 's not working , i guess people 's natural reaction anyway is to just shake the thing . marketing: but project manager: okay . you shake it and scream at it . marketing: but but do you think that it will be a good idea to use dynamo , tha these type of cells ? project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , it is , yeah . marketing: because then people have to , well like if the cell is out of bat project manager: it does leave them with an obligation to marketing: yeah , to mo yeah . project manager: especially if they want to use it uh uh sp uh specifically as um voice activated . marketing: yeah , industrial designer: right . marketing: because most of the people project manager: then if it 's just sitting on the user interface: yeah , then they have to pick it up and then activate it and then yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , okay . industrial designer: okay . user interface: that 's true . project manager: right um what are the other options ? industrial designer: uh there 's solar power . um . marketing: uh , solar power will w also not be a good idea , because then they have to keep m their mobiles outside in solar energy , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: and the days when there is no sola sunlight project manager: i 'm i 'm with uh raj on that , industrial designer: okay , so probably just marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: i think , you know , marketing: what we w project manager: i 've got i 've got no i 've got a north facing house , there 's not really ever sun coming in my window . user interface: marketing: yeah . i think we should a rechargeable battery will be a good idea . user interface: but w like just normal light ? project manager: oh that 's true . marketing: they can they can recharge it . project manager: i mean i w i w uh user interface: project manager: that idea that i thought um just on the basis of like ridding them of batteries and that kind of bother industrial designer: mm . project manager: is having a , user interface: and we 're a very environmentally friendly company , are n't we as well ? project manager: yeah , marketing: yeah . project manager: having a rechargeable stand , so that not only it doubles as a stand , but um for using it as uh recharging it , but also for using it as sound recognition . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: 'kay . user interface: like like a hand like one of those portable phones kind of thing . marketing: yeah , that 's yeah , exactly . project manager: yeah that kind of thing . industrial designer: okay . so uh a rechargeable battery . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . um the user interface , the buttons , i guess we talked about this already . project manager: rechargeable . user interface: mm . industrial designer: um . project manager: . what 's chip on print ? what 's industrial designer: hmm ? project manager: sorry , never mind . industrial designer: uh th the uh the electronics um , basically the more features we add um oops , this one . so the more features we add the fancier chips we need to buy and put in , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: which adds to the cost as you can expect . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um . but uh i think we can keep it all under budget . so uh yes , so the speech thing you said our our techno our research and development department came up with some break-through . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so just in time . project manager: yeah , and if we if we 're just having buttons and the speech then we 're getting our cheapest option of chipping . user interface: just in time . industrial designer: right , right . project manager: that 's good . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: uh woah . industrial designer: and keeping the lcd screen out . project manager: okay , we 're we 're kind of uh we 're kind of um excuse m i 've just deleted that whole thing . um we 're kind of running out of time , so if you could uh . was that you ? industrial designer: huh ? project manager: um that was your bit 's covered , industrial designer: oh yeah that was that was it . project manager: i just dele i just accidentally deleted what i was supposed to say next . industrial designer: marketing: uh excuse me , bri project manager: um , yeah . industrial designer: so control f_ eight , right ? project manager: oh , yeah . user interface: yeah , mine seems to have turned off . project manager: and i just touch the pad . user interface: i ca n't do anything . marketing: you just touch the pad , yeah . user interface: no . marketing: no ? project manager: it 's actually shut down . user interface: it 's on , but there 's nothing on the screen . project manager: okay , um now what we have industrial designer: try uh flipping the screen down . project manager: uh our next meeting 's in half an hour industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: and what i would like you guys to do is work on giving me a model in clay . industrial designer: oh , user interface: industrial designer: i get to do it , too . project manager: yeah . it 's you guys . yeah . industrial designer: oh neat . user interface: cool . project manager: so um , you know i mean , luckily we chose a nice simple shape . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah . mm . project manager: um and further instructions will be sent by your personal coaches . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . save everything to the shared documents , is that right ? marketing: that 's great . project manager: uh yeah , i hope i can recover this , 'cause i 've accidentally deleted it . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: which does n't really help me much . user interface: i think , i 've saved mine already . project manager: yeah , can you save that uh send that last one again , please , raj , marketing: yeah . project manager: as i still ca n't find it on the marketing: uh it was under a different name . project manager: marketing: i will show you , in shared documents . project manager: okay . marketing: uh working components . oh , you did n't get that . i will send new . project manager: no . okay , thank you . marketing: uh i 'll put it in shared documents , again . project manager: um yeah , project , project documents . marketing: project documents , sorry , i put it in the shared documents . project manager: uh right , marketing: uh yeah . project manager: that 's that 's the that it goes there automatically if you put it in project documents . project documents is on the um desktop . marketing: right , that 's great . but i cou ca n't open that , because it w asks uh for some username or password . industrial designer: oh . project manager: really ? marketing: i 'll show you . industrial designer: uh these lapel mics are trouble . marketing: ts project manager: oh right , i think um marketing: sorry . project manager: hold on . marketing: uh . project manager: yeah , i do n't know if y it it just ca it just came up on my um on my agenda . s um presumably there 's clay somewhere . um . four . marketing: yeah , that 's great . project manager: whoops . light , light , please . light . right , there you go . marketing: yeah , th thank you . project manager: yeah , quite . and we 're using this our basic chip set , so it 's all good . marketing: oh sorry . industrial designer: are we done with our meeting ? marketing: uh excuse me , brian . project manager: um i think we 're almost done , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: you have to keep your pen separate , because i used your pen . project manager: oh oops . marketing: s project manager: sorry man . uh okay , still did n't manage to get down all the last bits so we had rechargeable and uh . apples . mm-mm-mm-mm-mm . 'kay , so we came up with that , that 's okay . what 's supplements ? supplements . uh uh . see . user interface: cool . fun . project manager: i shoulda something like that . if i kn see i i knew that . i shoulda sort of engineered it so we k ended up making a diffi difficult shape . user interface: marketing: hmm . project manager: just for cruelty . marketing: hmm . user interface: yeah . star fruit . project manager: i wonder if they mean like literally make it , sort of buttons and everything . marketing: so sh should should we leave now , brian ? user interface: no . oh yeah , we can do buttons . marketing: or we are going to discuss something ? project manager: um . uh no , i think that 's us our discussion over unless anybody 's got questions or confusions , marketing: user interface: no i 'm good . project manager: 'cause i 'm confused . marketing: yeah . project manager: huh ? user interface: okay . marketing: excuse me . project manager: um uh we 'll probably get questionnaire in a minute , it 's a user interface: mm . project manager: marketing: sorry . thank you . yeah . project manager: there we go . warning , finish meeting now . marketing: so . project manager: i rounded it up far too fast . um . where are we going ? my documents , that 's not what i want . my project documents . there we go .

in the second half of the meeting , the team discussed the details of the features and appearances of the new remotes . lots of ideas and proposals were raised , but many of them were denied or modified later . in the end , the team reached a consensus that their new remotes would have batteries that could be recharged , pale yellow slogans , fruits-based shapes and sponge rubber material .

what 's the conclusion of the discussion about the outer casing when the team was talking over the appearances of the new remotes ? </s> project manager: um we are so the meeting will have about the same format as the last time . so switching over i 've just left uh my first two screens . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: um mailed you the minutes of the last meeting uh just to save time . user interface: okay . cool . project manager: um and is there any questions you have that arised from last meeting that are particularly bothering you ? n user interface: mm um . no , i do n't think so . project manager: no ? okay , cool . industrial designer: no . project manager: then we shall start with a presentation from raj . marketing: yeah . hi , me raj , again . uh in this meeting i i 'm going to discuss about the trend watching , uh how these trends is going to affect our market potential and how important is this . so we have to look on this . first of all methodology . the met methodology to find out the trend was incl uh was done in a way we have done a rec not only a recent remote control market survey , but we also considered the latest fre fashion trends of the market , because we think that this is also a factor which will affect our sales and profit . so what are our findings ? in our uh in our findings we have seen that when we did our remote control market survey we found that uh people l uh people do have preference for tho fancy mobi uh f remote controls which look and feel very good , rather than having a functional look and feel uh good . so this sh this clearly indicates their preference for the design their outlook of the remote controls . so we should take into uh we should consider this factor as the most important factor , because this factor is twice as important , the second factor which is further ti twice the as important as the sec as uh the third factor . so this factor becomes the most important factor in our surv uh uh in our mark uh means in take in designing our rem uh remote controls . user interface: the last one is the most important one , is it ? marketing: no the first one is the user interface: oh , sorry . marketing: uh the outlook of the mobile , the it should have a fancy outlook , project manager: user interface: okay . marketing: the fancy design uh rather than just having a functional look and feel good , it should have a fancy look and foo feel good . user interface: okay . marketing: the second most important aspect is that remote control should be a technologically uh innovative . we must have some technological advancement in the remote control tha rather than just putting it as it is as the other remo uh remote controls are . so it uh should be technologically innovative like glow-in-the-dark or speech recognition , something like that . project manager: marketing: so that indicates our technological advancement . and the third most important aspect in the ta to take into consideration is that it should be easy to use , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: like it should n't be too much co complicated , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: there should n't be too many buttons on this mobi uh remote control , it should n't be too complicated uh like this way . and it should be uh and customers should be provided with manuals that is easy to understand in their local language , something . so that they could know how to use these remote controls . when we did uh f fashions uh , recent fashion uh our recent fashion update shows that user interface: sorry . industrial designer: marketing: ah yeah ? user interface: i was just reading fruit and vegetables . project manager: user interface: hard to know how we are going to incorporate that . marketing: y yeah uh yeah , we have to , because uh d you can see how people have related their clothes , shoes , and everything with fruits and vegetables , project manager: user interface: marketing: because the g world is now changing it 's trend towards organic , becoming more and more organic , user interface: okay . yeah . industrial designer: we should make a big sponge lemon , marketing: becoming industrial designer: and then it 'd be it would be yellow . marketing: yeah . project manager: user interface: yeah . industrial designer: it 's marketing: so user interface: th that 's very good . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . so something like that we we should do . user interface: glow-in-the-dark . okay . marketing: and people uh the f feel of the material is expected to be spongy rather than just having a plastic look , hard look . industrial designer: mm . user interface: well , that 's good . marketing: yeah . yeah . user interface: that 's what we kind of predicted anyway . marketing: so so that they could play with it while handi uh while handling it . so that should also be taken into consideration . user interface: okay . okay . marketing: so these are my views . user interface: okay . marketing: so user interface: okay , the spongy , not real spongy , you can marketing: no it ca y a user interface: do you think like rubber would be good or does it really want to be like gel kind of stuff ? marketing: the rubber which is good for health and which is quite disposable that we can take into co user interface: okay . quite disposable . marketing: yeah . 'cause we it should n't be have any harm to the environment also , user interface: okay . marketing: because our company is very well for taking all these concerns into consideration , project manager: alright , okay . user interface: oh okay . marketing: so we do n't want to have any harm to the society , user interface: uh-huh . okay . marketing: so project manager: fashion . user interface: project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: cool . marketing: so that 's all . project manager: fruit and veg , well there you go . user interface: project manager: just what i think of when i think of a remote control . user interface: mm . industrial designer: user interface: a remote control ? yeah . marketing: user interface: and were there any factors that were n't important in the survey , that they said we do n't want ? marketing: s uh we did n't find out any such point . user interface: or was it just okay . marketing: uh yes , there could be , but we could n't find out any , so project manager: mm-mm-mm-mm . user interface: cool . project manager: mm-mm-mm-mm-mm . user interface: f_ , what is it ? um . project manager: function f_ eight . user interface: yeah . project manager: hmm . user interface: okay . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: oh no , . user interface: no signal . is that ? industrial designer: no , it 's got it 's got it . marketing: yeah , uh yeah , uh yeah . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: excuse me . user interface: okay , and then f_ five , right ? project manager: uh , yeah . user interface: okay . um okay , so the interface concept um . yeah . the interface specification , what people um how they interact with it basically , i think . um so the method , we looked at existing designs , what are the what 's good about them , what 's bad about them , um i looked at their flaws , so we 're going to look at their flaws , everything . um and what the survey told us and what we think would be good , so a bit of imagination . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: uh the findings , i 've got some pictures to show you as well . project manager: either . industrial designer: marketing: hmm . user interface: yeah . okay , so most remote controls use graphical interface , where you um have got s buttons and you point it rather than having the output as a a stream of text or something . project manager: uh okay . user interface: um and we also found that there 's inconsistent layout , which makes it confusing . so i think for our remote control there is some inconsistency already in ec existing in between remote controls , but i think standard kind of um shape and uh play and those kind of but buttons like the the top right for on and off or something , project manager: right , okay . yeah . user interface: i think , people find that important , 'cause then it 's easy to use . project manager: user interface: and we 've got some pictures of some uh new remote controls to show you . project manager: excellent . user interface: do i press escape f_ five ? or just project manager: uh no just escape should uh user interface: escape , okay . um , oh i still have n't got my glasses on . yeah , okay . so these are the some of the pictures of existing ones . project manager: industrial designer: wow . user interface: i 'll just walk you through them . this one is a voice recognition . project manager: 'kay . user interface: and that 's the kind of idea we 're going for . project manager: looks pretty complicated . user interface: there 's um an lcd thing , which we thought could i thought could get a bit confusing and a bit expensive as well for us . project manager: right , okay . user interface: this one is got a kind of scroll like a mouse , project manager: mm-hmm , like the middle button . user interface: which yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: um and but i 'm not exactly sure how you 'd use that , industrial designer: project manager: ah it 's kinda like scrolling user interface: like would the computer come project manager: uh right , well , if i s if i 'm thinking of the right one , i 've got the same thing in front of my monitor , you scroll it and the when you reach the sort of um menu item that you require , you press the middle of the scroll . user interface: uh-huh , that 's like the lcd one , project manager: right , okay . user interface: is it ? but the one below that has got like a little scroll function on the side . but i presume that the functions must come up on the tv screen . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , presumably . user interface: i think that 's what that is . so these are just a few ideas . again that 's just quite boring shape , grey , looks quite space-agey , but too many buttons , i think on that one . industrial designer: uh it looks threatening . project manager: yeah , looks like uh looks like something out of a jet . user interface: yeah , it does look kind of dangerous . industrial designer: it looks like yeah . marketing: hmm . user interface: um this one i thought was really cool . it 's w it 's got the programmability function that we talked about . industrial designer: user interface: you can put it in there , it 's for your kids , and it 's quite an organic shape and the little circle around there is pretty cool . project manager: okay . user interface: and that 's really easy to use , bright , so i like this one lot for our design . i think something like that would be good . industrial designer: wow . project manager: yeah , i m i mean the one thing i think about about these ones is um these kl uh secured areas um , i 've seen a lot of them with the the cover missing . user interface: of course yellow . project manager: so like have it hinge rather than sort of clip on or whatever . user interface: right , yeah . yeah , that 's true . yeah . um so maybe that could be built into one of the things and it comes up on the tv or something . and this one , the over-sized one , i do n't know about you , but i think it 's a bit too gimmicky . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: user interface: i do n't think that will sell very well . project manager: i mean is that not sort of to assist the blind or something , is it ? user interface: i guess so . i do n't know . industrial designer: then d blind do n't watch tv . project manager: strange . user interface: i think that 's a bit yeah exactly . project manager: no they do , they do . industrial designer: they do ? project manager: they listen to it . yeah . user interface: yeah . and um this one is just pointing out . i like some of these things um the the raised symbols and everything , but pointing out um that this one the volume it is kind of pressing down , but it would actually go up , because of the shape . project manager: right , okay . user interface: so that could that 's a bit confusing . um but the buttons on this i think are it 's just showing you how you can have different different um buttons . they do n't have to be all the same . so that 's quite cool . um . project manager: 'kay but people tend to recognise certain shapes to do certain things anyway , do n't they ? user interface: yeah , exactly . um f_ five . yes . so there are some of the findings . so we need to combine those ones um industrial designer: user interface: and i 've just got an e-mail from our technical department saying that they have broken through with some new speech recognition software that you can program in . project manager: brilliant . that 's handy . user interface: um yeah it is , just in time , very handy . um so i think maybe incorporating that in our design would be good . project manager: okay . user interface: it 's you program it like you say , record , um and then , play , and then , record , play machine , and stuff like that , so that 's and it 's much yeah . so that 's quite cool . uh personal preferences just some imagination , the raised symbols i thought were good , the lcd , it does look smart , but i think maybe for our budget , do you think that would be a bit too expensive to have the industrial designer: the lcd user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and the other stuff uh , i think . user interface: and the speech recognition , 'cause i think we 're definitely going for the speech recognition , marketing: but in our market survey we have seen that people are willing to pay more , user interface: are we ? marketing: but they want the quality , they want f fancy look , they want some new design , something new . user interface: uh-huh . project manager: okay . marketing: uh yeah . user interface: uh-huh . but our budget , we 've project manager: it 's still it 's still got to get within our twelve fifty , you know . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so even if we increase our cost little bit , within uh some limits , and we give something new technological advancement as well as new design with fancy outlook , i think we will meet the requirements and we will be able to have a good sales in the market . user interface: uh-huh . okay . project manager: okay . user interface: i 'm not sure if the if for twenty five euros uh per uh twelve euros fifty m manufacturing cost , . industrial designer: ben bana project manager: yeah . i ca n't see tha although , th i mean to be to be sure they have got i mean they are going crazy with the lcd technology now , industrial designer: user interface: the lcd . project manager: so that you 've got your lcd tvs and everything so maybe the small industrial designer: project manager: but i mean like i i the black and white , i guess , it just does n't look funky enough . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: um but , i mean , like even mobile phones or whatever have now have colour lcd screens , user interface: no . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: w i ju i mean user interface: yeah . s project manager: i would n't know about the costs of them . user interface: uh-huh . industrial designer: but uh price price not withstanding um , is it too complicated , is it gon na be too much just overload ? marketing: and the project manager: twelve fifty . marketing: uh i it will be easy because there will be , on lcd s screen , there will be different frent icons , they can just click ok okay , whatever they wa project manager: possibly . user interface: yeah , that 's the thing , because industrial designer: but but the thing is when you use a remote control , you never look at it , right ? you 're looking at the tv project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and and it 's uh project manager: yeah . user interface: that 's true , yeah . industrial designer: it just seems kind of like a a needless th user interface: and one of the survey findings was that they want it easy to use , so i think i 'm not sure about the lcd . project manager: right . user interface: it 's a it 's great , it 's a good idea , but for our budget and for the thing we 're trying to go for eas easy to use , it 's not the thing we should go for , i think . child-friendly , i thought this was good , as you pointed out the um the bit , it often goes missing especially with children , but it 's a good shape and the organic is kind of we could make a vegetabley kind of round shape , i think . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so which vegetable ? project manager: well i mean we could make a user interface: yeah , i know , carrot . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: well , si since we 're going for the uh the k the sort of company colours , i think your lemon was n't that far s industrial designer: the the lemon . well what are the options ? user interface: yeah . project manager: and if it does n't work you know , we 've just made a lemon . user interface: but we do n't want it to be yeah . um the child-friendly , yeah . easy to use , it seems quite easy to use . i like the d the different shapes of the buttons and stuff . project manager: mm-hmm . i like i like the colourful buttons as well . user interface: i think that 's a good idea to go for . yeah . and the mouse one , i thought it was a good idea , because people use mo mice mouses now with the scrolling thing . um . project manager: yeah . i mean we are marketing to sort of twenty five to thirty five , user interface: yeah . project manager: so most people will have come in contact with that kind of use . user interface: s yeah . so they 'd be able to use that um , as i said i think i i 'd presume it would come up on the screen . project manager: yeah . user interface: um so there you go . project manager: and that means tha that means you get to bump that bit to the tv maker , so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: oh . user interface: so that 's um the user interface project manager: 'kay . user interface: design . project manager: industrial designer: okay . user interface: so okay , i 'll take this out now then . industrial designer: um so project manager: user interface: there you go . industrial designer: i guess there are a lot of options that we 're gon na have to choose from among , project manager: yeah , looks like it . industrial designer: and i 'll i 'll give you the uh , i guess , technical considerations for those . user interface: mm . project manager: uh user interface: industrial designer: and i 'm gon na use the whiteboard , just 'cause we have n't used it . project manager: yeah , i was just thinking the self same thing . user interface: industrial designer: right . so , the way i 'm gon na do this is uh we 're gon na take a look at some old remote controls , see how they work , uh reuse the the vital kind of um essential pieces of it , project manager: industrial designer: and then we 'll throw in our new innovations um and keep it all within budget . project manager: magic man . industrial designer: so uh yeah , looking inside a a very simple remote control . um this is what they sent me . 'kay . here 's uh the competition , i suppose . project manager: industrial designer: um you open it up , there 's a circuit board inside , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and there 's a a chip , a processor , the t_a_ one one eight three five , which um receives input from the buttons , and ch project manager: so this is a standard off the shelf kind of a chip , is it ? industrial designer: right , it 's very they 're very cheap remote . this remote costs nothing , you know . um so that takes a signals from the buttons and translates it into a sequence of pulses that it then sends to the to the amplifier , which is made of some transistors and amplifiers , op-amps , and then that gets sent to the uh to the l_e_d_ light , which i can kinda see is that little red light bulb at the end , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and that sends out the infrared uh light signal to the television . project manager: right . industrial designer: oh here it is . um so this is kind of the the bear essentials that we need to have in our remote control , because it it defines the uh project manager: okay . so can we make them to pretty much any size we like or is there a minimum or ? industrial designer: r um no , i mean this is a very old one , so now with the new technology this is a a minimally small and cheap thing to make . project manager: they got ta be almost a key-ring . industrial designer: right . so this is what we need to have for certain . project manager: okay . industrial designer: um . so you know , as we said , we got the outer casing , which we have to decide , you know , what 's it gon na be , um the board we have to use basically uh the same set-up , processor , um we 'll probably use the more advanced processor than they had , amplifier and transmitter are all standard . um so for the casing , uh this an e-mail i got from our manufacturing team uh , you know , we have a bunch of options from wood , titanium , rubber , plastic , whatnot , um latex , double-curved , curved . so lots of choices , user interface: project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: what do we think ? uh or sponge , i guess , is n't on there , right . project manager: well . user interface: mm . i 'm not sure about the sponge . industrial designer: organic sponge . project manager: well , i mean like la latex has a kinda spongy feeling to it , does n't it . industrial designer: uh yeah , it 's very elasticy for sure . project manager: um yeah . and that would k also give it kinda durability user interface: yeah . project manager: and user interface: yeah . industrial designer: um . project manager: and ther that 's also f sorta relatively cheap to cast . industrial designer: yeah so project manager: um so maybe s uh a sort of uh plastic initial plastic with a a latex kinda sheath ? industrial designer: okay so , here are a a plastic , uh latex user interface: i like the rubber , the stress balls , i think , project manager: oh right , okay . user interface: you know , that could be a bit of a gimmick like it 's good to hold and industrial designer: oh right . project manager: i do n't know what that stuff is . industrial designer: so something with give to it . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . and user interface: and that might be quite durable and easy to chuck around . industrial designer: and the colour is yellow , right ? user interface: yeah , project manager: or at least incorporating , yeah . user interface: y yellow incorporated , yeah . industrial designer: yellow , okay . um . project manager: i mean i forgot i we 're sort of uh i do n't know what other standard silver kind of user interface: i think project manager: other parts or uh user interface: mm . yeah , the buttons w like , 'cause there 's gon na be the the cover the the rubber or the plastic casing and then the buttons in probably two different colours project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm ' kay . user interface: or i if we 're having buttons actually , industrial designer: so yellow for the body , user interface: i don project manager: um . industrial designer: and then what colour for the buttons ? project manager: um i quite like the multi-coloured buttons myself . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so multi-coloured buttons . user interface: you do have ones like um play could be green or on and off is red , and stuff like that , yeah . industrial designer: project manager: yeah or yeah a limit uh maybe even just a limited multi-colour so it it does n't look too childish , perhaps . user interface: makes it easy to use . yeah , that 's true , because that blue one did look quite hardish . industrial designer: okay . project manager: yeah . although i mean this uh uh also comes to shape as well . i mean if we are gon na make it a novel i mean double-curved sounds good to me if we 're talking about sorta ergonomic and easy use , industrial designer: okay . user interface: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: a bit comfier , you know . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm 'kay so the shape we wan na go um how exactly ? maybe double user interface: like uh an hour glass kind of figure , is that what you 're thinking of , project manager: yeah it 's uh , yeah , that that 'd be that 's sort of comfortable to hold , easy to hold so you do n't drop it . user interface: or just like a it 's not industrial designer: what about a banana ? user interface: yeah . project manager: user interface: we could make novelty remote controls . industrial designer: yeah ? okay , like we could have a big banana shaped remote control , project manager: well , yeah , i mean like industrial designer: 'cause it 's yellow fruit , user interface: industrial designer: right ? project manager: yeah , yeah . mm and a lemon might be a little hard to grip . yeah . user interface: yeah . but then how would you point it ? marketing: ah industrial designer: marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . user interface: how would you point it ? industrial designer: oh i it does n't matter which end you point , i guess . user interface: what industrial designer: we could have a little l_e_d_s on each end . marketing: yeah , i appreciate this idea , project manager: they only cost pennies . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: because then this this will help us in our advertisement also project manager: marketing: and we can relate with fruits and vegetables , the people 's choices . that what our data shows that , so this w this w user interface: yeah . project manager: huh ? user interface: y i 'm i 'm not sure about the banana idea . marketing: project manager: um . industrial designer: so a spongy banana re marketing: project manager: i mean that that th user interface: rubber banana . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: does user interface: okay . project manager: it does seem a bit uh again childish maybe . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay , okay . user interface: i think maybe just draw on the kind of fruit and vegetable shape . and what else did you say about fashions ? what was trendy ? marketing: uh the fashion trend shows that fruits and vegetables , project manager: s industrial designer: see marketing: like people uh now project manager: and sponginess . industrial designer: so maybe an an unidentifiable fruit or fiable fruit or vegetable user interface: and spongy , yeah . marketing: spongy . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: like so it would have a stem perhaps user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and a user interface: maybe , yeah . industrial designer: maybe a it 'd be s axially symmetric . project manager: huh . user interface: like what 's what 's that , i do n't even know the name of it , some kind of , you know where it 's like looks like a little snowman kind of thing . i do n't know the name of that . industrial designer: so it 'd look like this kinda . user interface: yeah , that 's what i was thinking . industrial designer: like a gourd almost , or a squash of some sort ? project manager: uh . user interface: yeah , maybe that 's what they are . project manager: user interface: 'cause that you can hold it in like the bottom bit industrial designer: yeah , user interface: and industrial designer: and it has a a clear top and bottom so y so you could say , you know , it transmits from this end . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , why the hell not . let 's that 'll make us fifty million euros . user interface: i do n't know . what do you guy what do you think ? industrial designer: project manager: um . well , i guess it 's kind of dra uh you do n't necessarily have to have it sort of clearly identified as a fruit just to have that kind of fruitish shape , user interface: no . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah ? user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , then only we can relate it with something . project manager: yeah , we can relate it by advertising or marketing: yeah . exactly . industrial designer: okay , so double-curved , single-curved , what do we feel ? project manager: yeah . marketing: or we can do something , we can design two three shapes and we can have a public survey , let the public choose what they want . user interface: uh-huh . industrial designer: okay . project manager: there 's a good man . there 's a good idea . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay um , i guess , since you 're the marketing guy . marketing: yeah , sure . i will be happy to do that . project manager: industrial designer: we 'll uh okay , we could do that . um . user interface: okay . and buttons would , did we say ? uh different shapes of buttons ? industrial designer: project manager: um i l i su i mean for the specific functions , you know , up and down , uh play , stop . user interface: mm . industrial designer: okay , so project manager: they 've got , i mean , they 've got standard sort of intuitive um industrial designer: so buttons . project manager: things that are always used . industrial designer: okay , just like that . user interface: project manager: that 's cool . user interface: yeah . project manager: i like it . industrial designer: okay . project manager: um . industrial designer: with the scroll-wheel or no ? user interface: yeah , what about the scroll wheel and speech recognition ? project manager: uh speech recognition , i think , so we need a microphone presumably . industrial designer: okay uh i could put the microphone here . project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: okay there 's the microphone . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: where should i put the microphone ? project manager: i mean ho h h wel are we sure that scroll wheel does give ease of use ? user interface: yeah , i 'm not sure . um i mean those ideas i saw were just for inspiration , i think . project manager: glad , we 're not doing this for real . user interface: um yeah , i can no i 'm not sure . industrial designer: okay , well we can do some user test with scroll-wheels , right ? user interface: i couldn yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: and uh i think if this this new software for the sound recognition is the microphone industrial designer: okay . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so should the microphone be just anywhere on it or project manager: i would put it sort of sub-centrally , so it 's yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: 'kay there 's the mic . project manager: so it can be sort of held and w user interface: that 's cool . industrial designer: project manager: we really need really gon na need to hold it , if it 's gon na be voice recognition . industrial designer: um n well we can whoops . project manager: oops . user interface: industrial designer: um . project manager: um . user interface: so let 's not use the whiteboard any more . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: marketing: industrial designer: um . marketing: project manager: upsidaisy . industrial designer: oops , sorry . okay . user interface: and uh so what else was there ? um the industrial designer: project manager: user interface: what about the glow-in-the-dark thing , the strip around it ? project manager: i s i still like it . user interface: are we just gon na leave that ? project manager: um but that 's me . user interface: you still like it . 'cause we 've got the uh technological innovation with the speech recognition system . industrial designer: right . project manager: yes , or maybe it 's just going a bit uh too far . i mean we are pushing it probably with funny fruit shapes . user interface: 'cause um it could yeah . project manager: um do n't wan na sort of overkill . user interface: especially with yellow . mm . i dunno . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: 'cause i mean like uh if we i mean how good is the speech recognition thing ? do we want to go for buttons at all , do we want to just have a device that maybe sits and pretends it 's a fruit ? user interface: then you put it in the fruit bowl ? industrial designer: they can work from a project manager: yeah , you know , and then you just tal industrial designer: you do n't have to hold it . project manager: i mean like everybody 's got fruit bowl in front of the telly . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i it could even encourage healthier habits for television watchers , project manager: um . industrial designer: you know they have uh fruits all round them . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . make them make them think of fruit , yeah . industrial designer: now just make sure they do n't eat the remote . marketing: yeah . project manager: i mean uh some uh i user interface: yeah , do we need buttons ? project manager: l like think of a fruit that could sit sort of independently on its own like uh , i dunno , an apple . user interface: mm . project manager: then it 's just apple so sort of industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh , yellow apples though hmm . user interface: i quite like the shape . i quite like the design of that , uh 'cause that could sit on its own and it 's quite got a quite steady base . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . okay , yeah , that 's good . industrial designer: okay . but yeah project manager: groovy . user interface: um project manager: user interface: and as we say we n we do n't wan na be too ridiculous with the fruit things you know . project manager: yeah , . industrial designer: but yeah , about the speech thing , it does n't have to be hand held or close . user interface: industrial designer: it can sit at a distance and pick it up still . project manager: yeah . so i mean like you could actually user interface: okay . marketing: or we can project manager: yeah , gives you the options . marketing: we can do one thing , we can just have a remote control and casings of different different shapes , different fruit shapes in such a way that a any casing can be could be fit into this mobile general piece . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so whatever people want , like if somebody want it in banana shape , we will put that casing onto that mobile phone , okay , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so a selection of casings . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: it will look l uh yeah . in that w project manager: it kind of fi it fits with f fits with marketing um user interface: yeah , 'cause you said about disposable , marketing: s s sorry ? user interface: did n't you ? you said about disposable earli people want disposable things marketing: uh like if this is a like if this is a mobile phone uh we will design casing in such a way like half of , we need not to have a full cover , we will just have a half of cover , project manager: user interface: so we could do that , like have a choice . yeah . marketing: okay ? if somebody wants it i in banana shape , we will fit banana shape casing onto that , so it will give a banana shape look . project manager: like like mobiles , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: if somebody wanted in apple shape we will design that , we will put we will put apple shape casing on that . it will give apple shape look . so in that way you can have any , that means whatever you want , user interface: okay . project manager: user interface: okay . marketing: without uh yeah . user interface: we still need the buttons in the same places thought , marketing: yeah , button will be on the upper side , buttons will be the on the upper side . user interface: do n't we ? project manager: you can standardise those , i mean . user interface: marketing: yeah , buttons will be on the upper side , lower side we will just put the casing , user interface: oh , that 's the other side . oh , okay . marketing: so half of that will be look the user interface: oh , half a fruit . oh , okay , okay . marketing: yeah , not not the upper side . so from lower you can , it means while you are holding of from this side you c you can have banana look or apple look , whatever . user interface: okay , okay . marketing: so in that way we need not to d have different different shape mobiles everything , we will just design casings fruit shape . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: and project manager: i think tho i think if you 're gon na have a facia then you 'd want to have it so that it does go over the buttons , user interface: okay . project manager: 'cause when if you think about it if they 're wanting it , 'cause they want to look at it , if they 're using it , and what they want to look at is facing away from them . it does n't really user interface: mm mm . project manager: you know 'cause that 'd be in the palm of their hand and they would n't be able to see it , user interface: yeah . project manager: unless you have sort of you got the buttons options on one side , and you get the facia on the other side with a microphone so that you can place it face down . and you 've got the facia , and you can just talk at the user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: maybe . industrial designer: okay , um so marketing: project manager: so you 've narrowed it down to half a dozen options . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: industrial designer: s i guess we decided on material , right ? so that that spongy latex rubber everything feel , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and the colours we got down , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and the shape , maybe we 'll just make it kinda mix and match type of shape or project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . well , um because well , i i 'm not sure if we should go so far in the whole fruit thing , because i think we should maybe just take the inspiration from the fruit and uh because what project manager: okay , so we stick with what we 've got there . user interface: yeah , w i think wh wha would we 're trying to get to twenty five , thirty five year olds who want it quite trendy as well they said . they wanted something that looks fancy and i think maybe fruit could be a bit of a too much of a gimmick , but something ergonomically shaped and organic , like good to hold , based on fruits and natural things like that , project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: because al already we 're going a bit gaudy with the yellow , you know . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: i mean we could make it nice pale yellow . project manager: well , it 's kind of got ta be our company 's yellow . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . project manager: so again i mean like we could have , uh i mean , we could quite easily have the the main body be a different user interface: okay . yeah . project manager: colour , but have user interface: maybe we could have that pale yellow and then an outside bit bright yellow with , you said , the logan the slogan . project manager: kinda going round , yeah . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um i mean e even if user interface: because project manager: i mean not necessarily that the um the whole body has to be of the company colour , so you know um blue and yellow tend to go to we well together . user interface: yeah . project manager: so you have the main body blue with the yellow logo and slogan running up one side of it kind of thing . user interface: yeah . yeah . uh-huh . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: w sort of industrial designer: great . um as for the energy source um , you know , almost every remote control uses just batteries , but we do n't have to be limited by that . we can use a hand-dynamo . um i do n't know what that means , we crank it ? project manager: uh it 's i think it 's basically the more you move i it , it 's got a wee thing inside that just kinda powers it . industrial designer: right , it 's like those watches that you c project manager: uh yeah . industrial designer: so , this might be an idea for something that people really wan na grab , you can shake it if it 's out of power . user interface: oh , a d a dynamo ? marketing: yeah , . project manager: yeah , i like that , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: user interface: yeah , like with those watches that you kind of twist . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah that 's quite cool . industrial designer: okay . so if it if it 's not working , i guess people 's natural reaction anyway is to just shake the thing . marketing: but project manager: okay . you shake it and scream at it . marketing: but but do you think that it will be a good idea to use dynamo , tha these type of cells ? project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , it is , yeah . marketing: because then people have to , well like if the cell is out of bat project manager: it does leave them with an obligation to marketing: yeah , to mo yeah . project manager: especially if they want to use it uh uh sp uh specifically as um voice activated . marketing: yeah , industrial designer: right . marketing: because most of the people project manager: then if it 's just sitting on the user interface: yeah , then they have to pick it up and then activate it and then yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , okay . industrial designer: okay . user interface: that 's true . project manager: right um what are the other options ? industrial designer: uh there 's solar power . um . marketing: uh , solar power will w also not be a good idea , because then they have to keep m their mobiles outside in solar energy , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: and the days when there is no sola sunlight project manager: i 'm i 'm with uh raj on that , industrial designer: okay , so probably just marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: i think , you know , marketing: what we w project manager: i 've got i 've got no i 've got a north facing house , there 's not really ever sun coming in my window . user interface: marketing: yeah . i think we should a rechargeable battery will be a good idea . user interface: but w like just normal light ? project manager: oh that 's true . marketing: they can they can recharge it . project manager: i mean i w i w uh user interface: project manager: that idea that i thought um just on the basis of like ridding them of batteries and that kind of bother industrial designer: mm . project manager: is having a , user interface: and we 're a very environmentally friendly company , are n't we as well ? project manager: yeah , marketing: yeah . project manager: having a rechargeable stand , so that not only it doubles as a stand , but um for using it as uh recharging it , but also for using it as sound recognition . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: 'kay . user interface: like like a hand like one of those portable phones kind of thing . marketing: yeah , that 's yeah , exactly . project manager: yeah that kind of thing . industrial designer: okay . so uh a rechargeable battery . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . um the user interface , the buttons , i guess we talked about this already . project manager: rechargeable . user interface: mm . industrial designer: um . project manager: . what 's chip on print ? what 's industrial designer: hmm ? project manager: sorry , never mind . industrial designer: uh th the uh the electronics um , basically the more features we add um oops , this one . so the more features we add the fancier chips we need to buy and put in , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: which adds to the cost as you can expect . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um . but uh i think we can keep it all under budget . so uh yes , so the speech thing you said our our techno our research and development department came up with some break-through . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so just in time . project manager: yeah , and if we if we 're just having buttons and the speech then we 're getting our cheapest option of chipping . user interface: just in time . industrial designer: right , right . project manager: that 's good . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: uh woah . industrial designer: and keeping the lcd screen out . project manager: okay , we 're we 're kind of uh we 're kind of um excuse m i 've just deleted that whole thing . um we 're kind of running out of time , so if you could uh . was that you ? industrial designer: huh ? project manager: um that was your bit 's covered , industrial designer: oh yeah that was that was it . project manager: i just dele i just accidentally deleted what i was supposed to say next . industrial designer: marketing: uh excuse me , bri project manager: um , yeah . industrial designer: so control f_ eight , right ? project manager: oh , yeah . user interface: yeah , mine seems to have turned off . project manager: and i just touch the pad . user interface: i ca n't do anything . marketing: you just touch the pad , yeah . user interface: no . marketing: no ? project manager: it 's actually shut down . user interface: it 's on , but there 's nothing on the screen . project manager: okay , um now what we have industrial designer: try uh flipping the screen down . project manager: uh our next meeting 's in half an hour industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: and what i would like you guys to do is work on giving me a model in clay . industrial designer: oh , user interface: industrial designer: i get to do it , too . project manager: yeah . it 's you guys . yeah . industrial designer: oh neat . user interface: cool . project manager: so um , you know i mean , luckily we chose a nice simple shape . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah . mm . project manager: um and further instructions will be sent by your personal coaches . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . save everything to the shared documents , is that right ? marketing: that 's great . project manager: uh yeah , i hope i can recover this , 'cause i 've accidentally deleted it . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: which does n't really help me much . user interface: i think , i 've saved mine already . project manager: yeah , can you save that uh send that last one again , please , raj , marketing: yeah . project manager: as i still ca n't find it on the marketing: uh it was under a different name . project manager: marketing: i will show you , in shared documents . project manager: okay . marketing: uh working components . oh , you did n't get that . i will send new . project manager: no . okay , thank you . marketing: uh i 'll put it in shared documents , again . project manager: um yeah , project , project documents . marketing: project documents , sorry , i put it in the shared documents . project manager: uh right , marketing: uh yeah . project manager: that 's that 's the that it goes there automatically if you put it in project documents . project documents is on the um desktop . marketing: right , that 's great . but i cou ca n't open that , because it w asks uh for some username or password . industrial designer: oh . project manager: really ? marketing: i 'll show you . industrial designer: uh these lapel mics are trouble . marketing: ts project manager: oh right , i think um marketing: sorry . project manager: hold on . marketing: uh . project manager: yeah , i do n't know if y it it just ca it just came up on my um on my agenda . s um presumably there 's clay somewhere . um . four . marketing: yeah , that 's great . project manager: whoops . light , light , please . light . right , there you go . marketing: yeah , th thank you . project manager: yeah , quite . and we 're using this our basic chip set , so it 's all good . marketing: oh sorry . industrial designer: are we done with our meeting ? marketing: uh excuse me , brian . project manager: um i think we 're almost done , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: you have to keep your pen separate , because i used your pen . project manager: oh oops . marketing: s project manager: sorry man . uh okay , still did n't manage to get down all the last bits so we had rechargeable and uh . apples . mm-mm-mm-mm-mm . 'kay , so we came up with that , that 's okay . what 's supplements ? supplements . uh uh . see . user interface: cool . fun . project manager: i shoulda something like that . if i kn see i i knew that . i shoulda sort of engineered it so we k ended up making a diffi difficult shape . user interface: marketing: hmm . project manager: just for cruelty . marketing: hmm . user interface: yeah . star fruit . project manager: i wonder if they mean like literally make it , sort of buttons and everything . marketing: so sh should should we leave now , brian ? user interface: no . oh yeah , we can do buttons . marketing: or we are going to discuss something ? project manager: um . uh no , i think that 's us our discussion over unless anybody 's got questions or confusions , marketing: user interface: no i 'm good . project manager: 'cause i 'm confused . marketing: yeah . project manager: huh ? user interface: okay . marketing: excuse me . project manager: um uh we 'll probably get questionnaire in a minute , it 's a user interface: mm . project manager: marketing: sorry . thank you . yeah . project manager: there we go . warning , finish meeting now . marketing: so . project manager: i rounded it up far too fast . um . where are we going ? my documents , that 's not what i want . my project documents . there we go .

the team was offered a bunch of options about the material of the outer casing from wood , titanium , rubber , plastic , latex , double-curved , curved , sponge , etc . after discussion , they decided that they would have the sponge rubber as their outer casing because it had the elasticity and durability which they needed . also , this kind of material was cheap to cast .

what shape did the team finally decide to use as the casing for the remote controls ? </s> project manager: um we are so the meeting will have about the same format as the last time . so switching over i 've just left uh my first two screens . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: um mailed you the minutes of the last meeting uh just to save time . user interface: okay . cool . project manager: um and is there any questions you have that arised from last meeting that are particularly bothering you ? n user interface: mm um . no , i do n't think so . project manager: no ? okay , cool . industrial designer: no . project manager: then we shall start with a presentation from raj . marketing: yeah . hi , me raj , again . uh in this meeting i i 'm going to discuss about the trend watching , uh how these trends is going to affect our market potential and how important is this . so we have to look on this . first of all methodology . the met methodology to find out the trend was incl uh was done in a way we have done a rec not only a recent remote control market survey , but we also considered the latest fre fashion trends of the market , because we think that this is also a factor which will affect our sales and profit . so what are our findings ? in our uh in our findings we have seen that when we did our remote control market survey we found that uh people l uh people do have preference for tho fancy mobi uh f remote controls which look and feel very good , rather than having a functional look and feel uh good . so this sh this clearly indicates their preference for the design their outlook of the remote controls . so we should take into uh we should consider this factor as the most important factor , because this factor is twice as important , the second factor which is further ti twice the as important as the sec as uh the third factor . so this factor becomes the most important factor in our surv uh uh in our mark uh means in take in designing our rem uh remote controls . user interface: the last one is the most important one , is it ? marketing: no the first one is the user interface: oh , sorry . marketing: uh the outlook of the mobile , the it should have a fancy outlook , project manager: user interface: okay . marketing: the fancy design uh rather than just having a functional look and feel good , it should have a fancy look and foo feel good . user interface: okay . marketing: the second most important aspect is that remote control should be a technologically uh innovative . we must have some technological advancement in the remote control tha rather than just putting it as it is as the other remo uh remote controls are . so it uh should be technologically innovative like glow-in-the-dark or speech recognition , something like that . project manager: marketing: so that indicates our technological advancement . and the third most important aspect in the ta to take into consideration is that it should be easy to use , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: like it should n't be too much co complicated , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: there should n't be too many buttons on this mobi uh remote control , it should n't be too complicated uh like this way . and it should be uh and customers should be provided with manuals that is easy to understand in their local language , something . so that they could know how to use these remote controls . when we did uh f fashions uh , recent fashion uh our recent fashion update shows that user interface: sorry . industrial designer: marketing: ah yeah ? user interface: i was just reading fruit and vegetables . project manager: user interface: hard to know how we are going to incorporate that . marketing: y yeah uh yeah , we have to , because uh d you can see how people have related their clothes , shoes , and everything with fruits and vegetables , project manager: user interface: marketing: because the g world is now changing it 's trend towards organic , becoming more and more organic , user interface: okay . yeah . industrial designer: we should make a big sponge lemon , marketing: becoming industrial designer: and then it 'd be it would be yellow . marketing: yeah . project manager: user interface: yeah . industrial designer: it 's marketing: so user interface: th that 's very good . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . so something like that we we should do . user interface: glow-in-the-dark . okay . marketing: and people uh the f feel of the material is expected to be spongy rather than just having a plastic look , hard look . industrial designer: mm . user interface: well , that 's good . marketing: yeah . yeah . user interface: that 's what we kind of predicted anyway . marketing: so so that they could play with it while handi uh while handling it . so that should also be taken into consideration . user interface: okay . okay . marketing: so these are my views . user interface: okay . marketing: so user interface: okay , the spongy , not real spongy , you can marketing: no it ca y a user interface: do you think like rubber would be good or does it really want to be like gel kind of stuff ? marketing: the rubber which is good for health and which is quite disposable that we can take into co user interface: okay . quite disposable . marketing: yeah . 'cause we it should n't be have any harm to the environment also , user interface: okay . marketing: because our company is very well for taking all these concerns into consideration , project manager: alright , okay . user interface: oh okay . marketing: so we do n't want to have any harm to the society , user interface: uh-huh . okay . marketing: so project manager: fashion . user interface: project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: cool . marketing: so that 's all . project manager: fruit and veg , well there you go . user interface: project manager: just what i think of when i think of a remote control . user interface: mm . industrial designer: user interface: a remote control ? yeah . marketing: user interface: and were there any factors that were n't important in the survey , that they said we do n't want ? marketing: s uh we did n't find out any such point . user interface: or was it just okay . marketing: uh yes , there could be , but we could n't find out any , so project manager: mm-mm-mm-mm . user interface: cool . project manager: mm-mm-mm-mm-mm . user interface: f_ , what is it ? um . project manager: function f_ eight . user interface: yeah . project manager: hmm . user interface: okay . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: oh no , . user interface: no signal . is that ? industrial designer: no , it 's got it 's got it . marketing: yeah , uh yeah , uh yeah . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: excuse me . user interface: okay , and then f_ five , right ? project manager: uh , yeah . user interface: okay . um okay , so the interface concept um . yeah . the interface specification , what people um how they interact with it basically , i think . um so the method , we looked at existing designs , what are the what 's good about them , what 's bad about them , um i looked at their flaws , so we 're going to look at their flaws , everything . um and what the survey told us and what we think would be good , so a bit of imagination . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: uh the findings , i 've got some pictures to show you as well . project manager: either . industrial designer: marketing: hmm . user interface: yeah . okay , so most remote controls use graphical interface , where you um have got s buttons and you point it rather than having the output as a a stream of text or something . project manager: uh okay . user interface: um and we also found that there 's inconsistent layout , which makes it confusing . so i think for our remote control there is some inconsistency already in ec existing in between remote controls , but i think standard kind of um shape and uh play and those kind of but buttons like the the top right for on and off or something , project manager: right , okay . yeah . user interface: i think , people find that important , 'cause then it 's easy to use . project manager: user interface: and we 've got some pictures of some uh new remote controls to show you . project manager: excellent . user interface: do i press escape f_ five ? or just project manager: uh no just escape should uh user interface: escape , okay . um , oh i still have n't got my glasses on . yeah , okay . so these are the some of the pictures of existing ones . project manager: industrial designer: wow . user interface: i 'll just walk you through them . this one is a voice recognition . project manager: 'kay . user interface: and that 's the kind of idea we 're going for . project manager: looks pretty complicated . user interface: there 's um an lcd thing , which we thought could i thought could get a bit confusing and a bit expensive as well for us . project manager: right , okay . user interface: this one is got a kind of scroll like a mouse , project manager: mm-hmm , like the middle button . user interface: which yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: um and but i 'm not exactly sure how you 'd use that , industrial designer: project manager: ah it 's kinda like scrolling user interface: like would the computer come project manager: uh right , well , if i s if i 'm thinking of the right one , i 've got the same thing in front of my monitor , you scroll it and the when you reach the sort of um menu item that you require , you press the middle of the scroll . user interface: uh-huh , that 's like the lcd one , project manager: right , okay . user interface: is it ? but the one below that has got like a little scroll function on the side . but i presume that the functions must come up on the tv screen . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , presumably . user interface: i think that 's what that is . so these are just a few ideas . again that 's just quite boring shape , grey , looks quite space-agey , but too many buttons , i think on that one . industrial designer: uh it looks threatening . project manager: yeah , looks like uh looks like something out of a jet . user interface: yeah , it does look kind of dangerous . industrial designer: it looks like yeah . marketing: hmm . user interface: um this one i thought was really cool . it 's w it 's got the programmability function that we talked about . industrial designer: user interface: you can put it in there , it 's for your kids , and it 's quite an organic shape and the little circle around there is pretty cool . project manager: okay . user interface: and that 's really easy to use , bright , so i like this one lot for our design . i think something like that would be good . industrial designer: wow . project manager: yeah , i m i mean the one thing i think about about these ones is um these kl uh secured areas um , i 've seen a lot of them with the the cover missing . user interface: of course yellow . project manager: so like have it hinge rather than sort of clip on or whatever . user interface: right , yeah . yeah , that 's true . yeah . um so maybe that could be built into one of the things and it comes up on the tv or something . and this one , the over-sized one , i do n't know about you , but i think it 's a bit too gimmicky . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: user interface: i do n't think that will sell very well . project manager: i mean is that not sort of to assist the blind or something , is it ? user interface: i guess so . i do n't know . industrial designer: then d blind do n't watch tv . project manager: strange . user interface: i think that 's a bit yeah exactly . project manager: no they do , they do . industrial designer: they do ? project manager: they listen to it . yeah . user interface: yeah . and um this one is just pointing out . i like some of these things um the the raised symbols and everything , but pointing out um that this one the volume it is kind of pressing down , but it would actually go up , because of the shape . project manager: right , okay . user interface: so that could that 's a bit confusing . um but the buttons on this i think are it 's just showing you how you can have different different um buttons . they do n't have to be all the same . so that 's quite cool . um . project manager: 'kay but people tend to recognise certain shapes to do certain things anyway , do n't they ? user interface: yeah , exactly . um f_ five . yes . so there are some of the findings . so we need to combine those ones um industrial designer: user interface: and i 've just got an e-mail from our technical department saying that they have broken through with some new speech recognition software that you can program in . project manager: brilliant . that 's handy . user interface: um yeah it is , just in time , very handy . um so i think maybe incorporating that in our design would be good . project manager: okay . user interface: it 's you program it like you say , record , um and then , play , and then , record , play machine , and stuff like that , so that 's and it 's much yeah . so that 's quite cool . uh personal preferences just some imagination , the raised symbols i thought were good , the lcd , it does look smart , but i think maybe for our budget , do you think that would be a bit too expensive to have the industrial designer: the lcd user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and the other stuff uh , i think . user interface: and the speech recognition , 'cause i think we 're definitely going for the speech recognition , marketing: but in our market survey we have seen that people are willing to pay more , user interface: are we ? marketing: but they want the quality , they want f fancy look , they want some new design , something new . user interface: uh-huh . project manager: okay . marketing: uh yeah . user interface: uh-huh . but our budget , we 've project manager: it 's still it 's still got to get within our twelve fifty , you know . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so even if we increase our cost little bit , within uh some limits , and we give something new technological advancement as well as new design with fancy outlook , i think we will meet the requirements and we will be able to have a good sales in the market . user interface: uh-huh . okay . project manager: okay . user interface: i 'm not sure if the if for twenty five euros uh per uh twelve euros fifty m manufacturing cost , . industrial designer: ben bana project manager: yeah . i ca n't see tha although , th i mean to be to be sure they have got i mean they are going crazy with the lcd technology now , industrial designer: user interface: the lcd . project manager: so that you 've got your lcd tvs and everything so maybe the small industrial designer: project manager: but i mean like i i the black and white , i guess , it just does n't look funky enough . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: um but , i mean , like even mobile phones or whatever have now have colour lcd screens , user interface: no . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: w i ju i mean user interface: yeah . s project manager: i would n't know about the costs of them . user interface: uh-huh . industrial designer: but uh price price not withstanding um , is it too complicated , is it gon na be too much just overload ? marketing: and the project manager: twelve fifty . marketing: uh i it will be easy because there will be , on lcd s screen , there will be different frent icons , they can just click ok okay , whatever they wa project manager: possibly . user interface: yeah , that 's the thing , because industrial designer: but but the thing is when you use a remote control , you never look at it , right ? you 're looking at the tv project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and and it 's uh project manager: yeah . user interface: that 's true , yeah . industrial designer: it just seems kind of like a a needless th user interface: and one of the survey findings was that they want it easy to use , so i think i 'm not sure about the lcd . project manager: right . user interface: it 's a it 's great , it 's a good idea , but for our budget and for the thing we 're trying to go for eas easy to use , it 's not the thing we should go for , i think . child-friendly , i thought this was good , as you pointed out the um the bit , it often goes missing especially with children , but it 's a good shape and the organic is kind of we could make a vegetabley kind of round shape , i think . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so which vegetable ? project manager: well i mean we could make a user interface: yeah , i know , carrot . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: well , si since we 're going for the uh the k the sort of company colours , i think your lemon was n't that far s industrial designer: the the lemon . well what are the options ? user interface: yeah . project manager: and if it does n't work you know , we 've just made a lemon . user interface: but we do n't want it to be yeah . um the child-friendly , yeah . easy to use , it seems quite easy to use . i like the d the different shapes of the buttons and stuff . project manager: mm-hmm . i like i like the colourful buttons as well . user interface: i think that 's a good idea to go for . yeah . and the mouse one , i thought it was a good idea , because people use mo mice mouses now with the scrolling thing . um . project manager: yeah . i mean we are marketing to sort of twenty five to thirty five , user interface: yeah . project manager: so most people will have come in contact with that kind of use . user interface: s yeah . so they 'd be able to use that um , as i said i think i i 'd presume it would come up on the screen . project manager: yeah . user interface: um so there you go . project manager: and that means tha that means you get to bump that bit to the tv maker , so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: oh . user interface: so that 's um the user interface project manager: 'kay . user interface: design . project manager: industrial designer: okay . user interface: so okay , i 'll take this out now then . industrial designer: um so project manager: user interface: there you go . industrial designer: i guess there are a lot of options that we 're gon na have to choose from among , project manager: yeah , looks like it . industrial designer: and i 'll i 'll give you the uh , i guess , technical considerations for those . user interface: mm . project manager: uh user interface: industrial designer: and i 'm gon na use the whiteboard , just 'cause we have n't used it . project manager: yeah , i was just thinking the self same thing . user interface: industrial designer: right . so , the way i 'm gon na do this is uh we 're gon na take a look at some old remote controls , see how they work , uh reuse the the vital kind of um essential pieces of it , project manager: industrial designer: and then we 'll throw in our new innovations um and keep it all within budget . project manager: magic man . industrial designer: so uh yeah , looking inside a a very simple remote control . um this is what they sent me . 'kay . here 's uh the competition , i suppose . project manager: industrial designer: um you open it up , there 's a circuit board inside , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and there 's a a chip , a processor , the t_a_ one one eight three five , which um receives input from the buttons , and ch project manager: so this is a standard off the shelf kind of a chip , is it ? industrial designer: right , it 's very they 're very cheap remote . this remote costs nothing , you know . um so that takes a signals from the buttons and translates it into a sequence of pulses that it then sends to the to the amplifier , which is made of some transistors and amplifiers , op-amps , and then that gets sent to the uh to the l_e_d_ light , which i can kinda see is that little red light bulb at the end , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and that sends out the infrared uh light signal to the television . project manager: right . industrial designer: oh here it is . um so this is kind of the the bear essentials that we need to have in our remote control , because it it defines the uh project manager: okay . so can we make them to pretty much any size we like or is there a minimum or ? industrial designer: r um no , i mean this is a very old one , so now with the new technology this is a a minimally small and cheap thing to make . project manager: they got ta be almost a key-ring . industrial designer: right . so this is what we need to have for certain . project manager: okay . industrial designer: um . so you know , as we said , we got the outer casing , which we have to decide , you know , what 's it gon na be , um the board we have to use basically uh the same set-up , processor , um we 'll probably use the more advanced processor than they had , amplifier and transmitter are all standard . um so for the casing , uh this an e-mail i got from our manufacturing team uh , you know , we have a bunch of options from wood , titanium , rubber , plastic , whatnot , um latex , double-curved , curved . so lots of choices , user interface: project manager: 'kay . industrial designer: what do we think ? uh or sponge , i guess , is n't on there , right . project manager: well . user interface: mm . i 'm not sure about the sponge . industrial designer: organic sponge . project manager: well , i mean like la latex has a kinda spongy feeling to it , does n't it . industrial designer: uh yeah , it 's very elasticy for sure . project manager: um yeah . and that would k also give it kinda durability user interface: yeah . project manager: and user interface: yeah . industrial designer: um . project manager: and ther that 's also f sorta relatively cheap to cast . industrial designer: yeah so project manager: um so maybe s uh a sort of uh plastic initial plastic with a a latex kinda sheath ? industrial designer: okay so , here are a a plastic , uh latex user interface: i like the rubber , the stress balls , i think , project manager: oh right , okay . user interface: you know , that could be a bit of a gimmick like it 's good to hold and industrial designer: oh right . project manager: i do n't know what that stuff is . industrial designer: so something with give to it . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . and user interface: and that might be quite durable and easy to chuck around . industrial designer: and the colour is yellow , right ? user interface: yeah , project manager: or at least incorporating , yeah . user interface: y yellow incorporated , yeah . industrial designer: yellow , okay . um . project manager: i mean i forgot i we 're sort of uh i do n't know what other standard silver kind of user interface: i think project manager: other parts or uh user interface: mm . yeah , the buttons w like , 'cause there 's gon na be the the cover the the rubber or the plastic casing and then the buttons in probably two different colours project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm ' kay . user interface: or i if we 're having buttons actually , industrial designer: so yellow for the body , user interface: i don project manager: um . industrial designer: and then what colour for the buttons ? project manager: um i quite like the multi-coloured buttons myself . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so multi-coloured buttons . user interface: you do have ones like um play could be green or on and off is red , and stuff like that , yeah . industrial designer: project manager: yeah or yeah a limit uh maybe even just a limited multi-colour so it it does n't look too childish , perhaps . user interface: makes it easy to use . yeah , that 's true , because that blue one did look quite hardish . industrial designer: okay . project manager: yeah . although i mean this uh uh also comes to shape as well . i mean if we are gon na make it a novel i mean double-curved sounds good to me if we 're talking about sorta ergonomic and easy use , industrial designer: okay . user interface: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: a bit comfier , you know . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm 'kay so the shape we wan na go um how exactly ? maybe double user interface: like uh an hour glass kind of figure , is that what you 're thinking of , project manager: yeah it 's uh , yeah , that that 'd be that 's sort of comfortable to hold , easy to hold so you do n't drop it . user interface: or just like a it 's not industrial designer: what about a banana ? user interface: yeah . project manager: user interface: we could make novelty remote controls . industrial designer: yeah ? okay , like we could have a big banana shaped remote control , project manager: well , yeah , i mean like industrial designer: 'cause it 's yellow fruit , user interface: industrial designer: right ? project manager: yeah , yeah . mm and a lemon might be a little hard to grip . yeah . user interface: yeah . but then how would you point it ? marketing: ah industrial designer: marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . user interface: how would you point it ? industrial designer: oh i it does n't matter which end you point , i guess . user interface: what industrial designer: we could have a little l_e_d_s on each end . marketing: yeah , i appreciate this idea , project manager: they only cost pennies . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: because then this this will help us in our advertisement also project manager: marketing: and we can relate with fruits and vegetables , the people 's choices . that what our data shows that , so this w this w user interface: yeah . project manager: huh ? user interface: y i 'm i 'm not sure about the banana idea . marketing: project manager: um . industrial designer: so a spongy banana re marketing: project manager: i mean that that th user interface: rubber banana . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: does user interface: okay . project manager: it does seem a bit uh again childish maybe . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay , okay . user interface: i think maybe just draw on the kind of fruit and vegetable shape . and what else did you say about fashions ? what was trendy ? marketing: uh the fashion trend shows that fruits and vegetables , project manager: s industrial designer: see marketing: like people uh now project manager: and sponginess . industrial designer: so maybe an an unidentifiable fruit or fiable fruit or vegetable user interface: and spongy , yeah . marketing: spongy . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: like so it would have a stem perhaps user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and a user interface: maybe , yeah . industrial designer: maybe a it 'd be s axially symmetric . project manager: huh . user interface: like what 's what 's that , i do n't even know the name of it , some kind of , you know where it 's like looks like a little snowman kind of thing . i do n't know the name of that . industrial designer: so it 'd look like this kinda . user interface: yeah , that 's what i was thinking . industrial designer: like a gourd almost , or a squash of some sort ? project manager: uh . user interface: yeah , maybe that 's what they are . project manager: user interface: 'cause that you can hold it in like the bottom bit industrial designer: yeah , user interface: and industrial designer: and it has a a clear top and bottom so y so you could say , you know , it transmits from this end . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , why the hell not . let 's that 'll make us fifty million euros . user interface: i do n't know . what do you guy what do you think ? industrial designer: project manager: um . well , i guess it 's kind of dra uh you do n't necessarily have to have it sort of clearly identified as a fruit just to have that kind of fruitish shape , user interface: no . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah ? user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , then only we can relate it with something . project manager: yeah , we can relate it by advertising or marketing: yeah . exactly . industrial designer: okay , so double-curved , single-curved , what do we feel ? project manager: yeah . marketing: or we can do something , we can design two three shapes and we can have a public survey , let the public choose what they want . user interface: uh-huh . industrial designer: okay . project manager: there 's a good man . there 's a good idea . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay um , i guess , since you 're the marketing guy . marketing: yeah , sure . i will be happy to do that . project manager: industrial designer: we 'll uh okay , we could do that . um . user interface: okay . and buttons would , did we say ? uh different shapes of buttons ? industrial designer: project manager: um i l i su i mean for the specific functions , you know , up and down , uh play , stop . user interface: mm . industrial designer: okay , so project manager: they 've got , i mean , they 've got standard sort of intuitive um industrial designer: so buttons . project manager: things that are always used . industrial designer: okay , just like that . user interface: project manager: that 's cool . user interface: yeah . project manager: i like it . industrial designer: okay . project manager: um . industrial designer: with the scroll-wheel or no ? user interface: yeah , what about the scroll wheel and speech recognition ? project manager: uh speech recognition , i think , so we need a microphone presumably . industrial designer: okay uh i could put the microphone here . project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: okay there 's the microphone . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: where should i put the microphone ? project manager: i mean ho h h wel are we sure that scroll wheel does give ease of use ? user interface: yeah , i 'm not sure . um i mean those ideas i saw were just for inspiration , i think . project manager: glad , we 're not doing this for real . user interface: um yeah , i can no i 'm not sure . industrial designer: okay , well we can do some user test with scroll-wheels , right ? user interface: i couldn yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: and uh i think if this this new software for the sound recognition is the microphone industrial designer: okay . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so should the microphone be just anywhere on it or project manager: i would put it sort of sub-centrally , so it 's yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: 'kay there 's the mic . project manager: so it can be sort of held and w user interface: that 's cool . industrial designer: project manager: we really need really gon na need to hold it , if it 's gon na be voice recognition . industrial designer: um n well we can whoops . project manager: oops . user interface: industrial designer: um . project manager: um . user interface: so let 's not use the whiteboard any more . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: marketing: industrial designer: um . marketing: project manager: upsidaisy . industrial designer: oops , sorry . okay . user interface: and uh so what else was there ? um the industrial designer: project manager: user interface: what about the glow-in-the-dark thing , the strip around it ? project manager: i s i still like it . user interface: are we just gon na leave that ? project manager: um but that 's me . user interface: you still like it . 'cause we 've got the uh technological innovation with the speech recognition system . industrial designer: right . project manager: yes , or maybe it 's just going a bit uh too far . i mean we are pushing it probably with funny fruit shapes . user interface: 'cause um it could yeah . project manager: um do n't wan na sort of overkill . user interface: especially with yellow . mm . i dunno . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: 'cause i mean like uh if we i mean how good is the speech recognition thing ? do we want to go for buttons at all , do we want to just have a device that maybe sits and pretends it 's a fruit ? user interface: then you put it in the fruit bowl ? industrial designer: they can work from a project manager: yeah , you know , and then you just tal industrial designer: you do n't have to hold it . project manager: i mean like everybody 's got fruit bowl in front of the telly . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i it could even encourage healthier habits for television watchers , project manager: um . industrial designer: you know they have uh fruits all round them . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . make them make them think of fruit , yeah . industrial designer: now just make sure they do n't eat the remote . marketing: yeah . project manager: i mean uh some uh i user interface: yeah , do we need buttons ? project manager: l like think of a fruit that could sit sort of independently on its own like uh , i dunno , an apple . user interface: mm . project manager: then it 's just apple so sort of industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh , yellow apples though hmm . user interface: i quite like the shape . i quite like the design of that , uh 'cause that could sit on its own and it 's quite got a quite steady base . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . okay , yeah , that 's good . industrial designer: okay . but yeah project manager: groovy . user interface: um project manager: user interface: and as we say we n we do n't wan na be too ridiculous with the fruit things you know . project manager: yeah , . industrial designer: but yeah , about the speech thing , it does n't have to be hand held or close . user interface: industrial designer: it can sit at a distance and pick it up still . project manager: yeah . so i mean like you could actually user interface: okay . marketing: or we can project manager: yeah , gives you the options . marketing: we can do one thing , we can just have a remote control and casings of different different shapes , different fruit shapes in such a way that a any casing can be could be fit into this mobile general piece . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so whatever people want , like if somebody want it in banana shape , we will put that casing onto that mobile phone , okay , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so a selection of casings . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: it will look l uh yeah . in that w project manager: it kind of fi it fits with f fits with marketing um user interface: yeah , 'cause you said about disposable , marketing: s s sorry ? user interface: did n't you ? you said about disposable earli people want disposable things marketing: uh like if this is a like if this is a mobile phone uh we will design casing in such a way like half of , we need not to have a full cover , we will just have a half of cover , project manager: user interface: so we could do that , like have a choice . yeah . marketing: okay ? if somebody wants it i in banana shape , we will fit banana shape casing onto that , so it will give a banana shape look . project manager: like like mobiles , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: if somebody wanted in apple shape we will design that , we will put we will put apple shape casing on that . it will give apple shape look . so in that way you can have any , that means whatever you want , user interface: okay . project manager: user interface: okay . marketing: without uh yeah . user interface: we still need the buttons in the same places thought , marketing: yeah , button will be on the upper side , buttons will be the on the upper side . user interface: do n't we ? project manager: you can standardise those , i mean . user interface: marketing: yeah , buttons will be on the upper side , lower side we will just put the casing , user interface: oh , that 's the other side . oh , okay . marketing: so half of that will be look the user interface: oh , half a fruit . oh , okay , okay . marketing: yeah , not not the upper side . so from lower you can , it means while you are holding of from this side you c you can have banana look or apple look , whatever . user interface: okay , okay . marketing: so in that way we need not to d have different different shape mobiles everything , we will just design casings fruit shape . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: and project manager: i think tho i think if you 're gon na have a facia then you 'd want to have it so that it does go over the buttons , user interface: okay . project manager: 'cause when if you think about it if they 're wanting it , 'cause they want to look at it , if they 're using it , and what they want to look at is facing away from them . it does n't really user interface: mm mm . project manager: you know 'cause that 'd be in the palm of their hand and they would n't be able to see it , user interface: yeah . project manager: unless you have sort of you got the buttons options on one side , and you get the facia on the other side with a microphone so that you can place it face down . and you 've got the facia , and you can just talk at the user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: maybe . industrial designer: okay , um so marketing: project manager: so you 've narrowed it down to half a dozen options . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: industrial designer: s i guess we decided on material , right ? so that that spongy latex rubber everything feel , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and the colours we got down , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and the shape , maybe we 'll just make it kinda mix and match type of shape or project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . well , um because well , i i 'm not sure if we should go so far in the whole fruit thing , because i think we should maybe just take the inspiration from the fruit and uh because what project manager: okay , so we stick with what we 've got there . user interface: yeah , w i think wh wha would we 're trying to get to twenty five , thirty five year olds who want it quite trendy as well they said . they wanted something that looks fancy and i think maybe fruit could be a bit of a too much of a gimmick , but something ergonomically shaped and organic , like good to hold , based on fruits and natural things like that , project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: because al already we 're going a bit gaudy with the yellow , you know . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: i mean we could make it nice pale yellow . project manager: well , it 's kind of got ta be our company 's yellow . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . project manager: so again i mean like we could have , uh i mean , we could quite easily have the the main body be a different user interface: okay . yeah . project manager: colour , but have user interface: maybe we could have that pale yellow and then an outside bit bright yellow with , you said , the logan the slogan . project manager: kinda going round , yeah . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um i mean e even if user interface: because project manager: i mean not necessarily that the um the whole body has to be of the company colour , so you know um blue and yellow tend to go to we well together . user interface: yeah . project manager: so you have the main body blue with the yellow logo and slogan running up one side of it kind of thing . user interface: yeah . yeah . uh-huh . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: w sort of industrial designer: great . um as for the energy source um , you know , almost every remote control uses just batteries , but we do n't have to be limited by that . we can use a hand-dynamo . um i do n't know what that means , we crank it ? project manager: uh it 's i think it 's basically the more you move i it , it 's got a wee thing inside that just kinda powers it . industrial designer: right , it 's like those watches that you c project manager: uh yeah . industrial designer: so , this might be an idea for something that people really wan na grab , you can shake it if it 's out of power . user interface: oh , a d a dynamo ? marketing: yeah , . project manager: yeah , i like that , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: user interface: yeah , like with those watches that you kind of twist . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah that 's quite cool . industrial designer: okay . so if it if it 's not working , i guess people 's natural reaction anyway is to just shake the thing . marketing: but project manager: okay . you shake it and scream at it . marketing: but but do you think that it will be a good idea to use dynamo , tha these type of cells ? project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , it is , yeah . marketing: because then people have to , well like if the cell is out of bat project manager: it does leave them with an obligation to marketing: yeah , to mo yeah . project manager: especially if they want to use it uh uh sp uh specifically as um voice activated . marketing: yeah , industrial designer: right . marketing: because most of the people project manager: then if it 's just sitting on the user interface: yeah , then they have to pick it up and then activate it and then yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , okay . industrial designer: okay . user interface: that 's true . project manager: right um what are the other options ? industrial designer: uh there 's solar power . um . marketing: uh , solar power will w also not be a good idea , because then they have to keep m their mobiles outside in solar energy , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: and the days when there is no sola sunlight project manager: i 'm i 'm with uh raj on that , industrial designer: okay , so probably just marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: i think , you know , marketing: what we w project manager: i 've got i 've got no i 've got a north facing house , there 's not really ever sun coming in my window . user interface: marketing: yeah . i think we should a rechargeable battery will be a good idea . user interface: but w like just normal light ? project manager: oh that 's true . marketing: they can they can recharge it . project manager: i mean i w i w uh user interface: project manager: that idea that i thought um just on the basis of like ridding them of batteries and that kind of bother industrial designer: mm . project manager: is having a , user interface: and we 're a very environmentally friendly company , are n't we as well ? project manager: yeah , marketing: yeah . project manager: having a rechargeable stand , so that not only it doubles as a stand , but um for using it as uh recharging it , but also for using it as sound recognition . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: 'kay . user interface: like like a hand like one of those portable phones kind of thing . marketing: yeah , that 's yeah , exactly . project manager: yeah that kind of thing . industrial designer: okay . so uh a rechargeable battery . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . um the user interface , the buttons , i guess we talked about this already . project manager: rechargeable . user interface: mm . industrial designer: um . project manager: . what 's chip on print ? what 's industrial designer: hmm ? project manager: sorry , never mind . industrial designer: uh th the uh the electronics um , basically the more features we add um oops , this one . so the more features we add the fancier chips we need to buy and put in , user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: which adds to the cost as you can expect . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um . but uh i think we can keep it all under budget . so uh yes , so the speech thing you said our our techno our research and development department came up with some break-through . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so just in time . project manager: yeah , and if we if we 're just having buttons and the speech then we 're getting our cheapest option of chipping . user interface: just in time . industrial designer: right , right . project manager: that 's good . industrial designer: yeah , project manager: uh woah . industrial designer: and keeping the lcd screen out . project manager: okay , we 're we 're kind of uh we 're kind of um excuse m i 've just deleted that whole thing . um we 're kind of running out of time , so if you could uh . was that you ? industrial designer: huh ? project manager: um that was your bit 's covered , industrial designer: oh yeah that was that was it . project manager: i just dele i just accidentally deleted what i was supposed to say next . industrial designer: marketing: uh excuse me , bri project manager: um , yeah . industrial designer: so control f_ eight , right ? project manager: oh , yeah . user interface: yeah , mine seems to have turned off . project manager: and i just touch the pad . user interface: i ca n't do anything . marketing: you just touch the pad , yeah . user interface: no . marketing: no ? project manager: it 's actually shut down . user interface: it 's on , but there 's nothing on the screen . project manager: okay , um now what we have industrial designer: try uh flipping the screen down . project manager: uh our next meeting 's in half an hour industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: and what i would like you guys to do is work on giving me a model in clay . industrial designer: oh , user interface: industrial designer: i get to do it , too . project manager: yeah . it 's you guys . yeah . industrial designer: oh neat . user interface: cool . project manager: so um , you know i mean , luckily we chose a nice simple shape . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah . mm . project manager: um and further instructions will be sent by your personal coaches . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . save everything to the shared documents , is that right ? marketing: that 's great . project manager: uh yeah , i hope i can recover this , 'cause i 've accidentally deleted it . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: which does n't really help me much . user interface: i think , i 've saved mine already . project manager: yeah , can you save that uh send that last one again , please , raj , marketing: yeah . project manager: as i still ca n't find it on the marketing: uh it was under a different name . project manager: marketing: i will show you , in shared documents . project manager: okay . marketing: uh working components . oh , you did n't get that . i will send new . project manager: no . okay , thank you . marketing: uh i 'll put it in shared documents , again . project manager: um yeah , project , project documents . marketing: project documents , sorry , i put it in the shared documents . project manager: uh right , marketing: uh yeah . project manager: that 's that 's the that it goes there automatically if you put it in project documents . project documents is on the um desktop . marketing: right , that 's great . but i cou ca n't open that , because it w asks uh for some username or password . industrial designer: oh . project manager: really ? marketing: i 'll show you . industrial designer: uh these lapel mics are trouble . marketing: ts project manager: oh right , i think um marketing: sorry . project manager: hold on . marketing: uh . project manager: yeah , i do n't know if y it it just ca it just came up on my um on my agenda . s um presumably there 's clay somewhere . um . four . marketing: yeah , that 's great . project manager: whoops . light , light , please . light . right , there you go . marketing: yeah , th thank you . project manager: yeah , quite . and we 're using this our basic chip set , so it 's all good . marketing: oh sorry . industrial designer: are we done with our meeting ? marketing: uh excuse me , brian . project manager: um i think we 're almost done , yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: you have to keep your pen separate , because i used your pen . project manager: oh oops . marketing: s project manager: sorry man . uh okay , still did n't manage to get down all the last bits so we had rechargeable and uh . apples . mm-mm-mm-mm-mm . 'kay , so we came up with that , that 's okay . what 's supplements ? supplements . uh uh . see . user interface: cool . fun . project manager: i shoulda something like that . if i kn see i i knew that . i shoulda sort of engineered it so we k ended up making a diffi difficult shape . user interface: marketing: hmm . project manager: just for cruelty . marketing: hmm . user interface: yeah . star fruit . project manager: i wonder if they mean like literally make it , sort of buttons and everything . marketing: so sh should should we leave now , brian ? user interface: no . oh yeah , we can do buttons . marketing: or we are going to discuss something ? project manager: um . uh no , i think that 's us our discussion over unless anybody 's got questions or confusions , marketing: user interface: no i 'm good . project manager: 'cause i 'm confused . marketing: yeah . project manager: huh ? user interface: okay . marketing: excuse me . project manager: um uh we 'll probably get questionnaire in a minute , it 's a user interface: mm . project manager: marketing: sorry . thank you . yeah . project manager: there we go . warning , finish meeting now . marketing: so . project manager: i rounded it up far too fast . um . where are we going ? my documents , that 's not what i want . my project documents . there we go .

the industrial designer first proposed to use the shape of a banana . however , the project manager thought it might be a little bit childish . then , the user interface suggested drawing on the kind of fruits and vegetable shape . after a period of discussion , the team decided to design two or three shapes and had a public survey , letting the public choose what they want .

summarize the meeting </s> phd a: ok , we 're going . phd d: damn . professor c: and uh hans - uh , hans - guenter will be here , um , i think by next next tuesday or so . phd b: oh , ok . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so he 's he 's going to be here for about three weeks , phd b: oh ! that 's nice . phd a: just for a visit ? professor c: and , uh uh , we 'll see . phd a: huh . professor c: we might might end up with some longer collaboration or something . phd a: cool . professor c: so he 's gon na look in on everything we 're doing phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: and give us his his thoughts . and so it 'll be another another good person looking at things . phd b: oh . hmm . grad e: th - that 's his spectral subtraction group ? professor c: yeah , grad e: is that right ? professor c: yeah . grad e: oh , ok . so i guess i should probably talk to him a bit too ? professor c: oh , yeah . yeah . yeah . no , he 'll be around for three weeks . he 's , uh , um , very , very , easygoing , easy to talk to , and , uh , very interested in everything . phd a: really nice guy . professor c: yeah , yeah . phd b: yeah , we met him in amsterdam . professor c: yeah , yeah , he 's been here before . phd b: oh , ok . professor c: i mean , he 's he 's he 's he 's phd a: wh - back when i was a grad student he was here for a , uh , uh a year or { comment } n six months . phd b: i have n't noticed him . professor c: n nine months . phd a: something like that . professor c: something like that . phd a: yeah . professor c: yeah . yeah . he 's he 's done a couple stays here . phd b: hmm . professor c: yeah . phd a: so , um , { comment } i guess we got lots to catch up on . and we have n't met for a couple of weeks . we did n't meet last week , morgan . um , i went around and talked to everybody , and it seemed like they they had some new results but rather than them coming up and telling me i figured we should just wait a week and they can tell both you know , all of us . so , um , why do n't we why do n't we start with you , dave , and then , um , we can go on . grad e: oh , ok . phd a: so . grad e: so , um , since we 're looking at putting this , um mean log m magnitude spectral subtraction , um , into the smartkom system , i i did a test seeing if , um , it would work using past only { comment } and plus the present to calculate the mean . so , i did a test , um , where i used twelve seconds from the past and the present frame to , um , calculate the mean . and phd a: twelve seconds twelve twelve seconds back from the current frame , is that what you mean ? grad e: uh twelve seconds , um , counting back from the end of the current frame , phd a: ok , ok . grad e: yeah . so it was , um , twen i think it was twenty - one frames and that worked out to about twelve seconds . phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: and compared to , um , do using a twelve second centered window , i think there was a drop in performance but it was just a slight drop . phd a: hmm ! professor c: mm - hmm . grad e: is is that right ? professor c: um , yeah , i mean , it was pretty it was pretty tiny . yeah . grad e: uh - huh . so that was encouraging . and , um , that that um , that 's encouraging for for the idea of using it in an interactive system like and , um , another issue i 'm i 'm thinking about is in the smartkom system . so say twe twelve seconds in the earlier test seemed like a good length of time , but what happens if you have less than twelve seconds ? and , um so i w bef before , um back in may , i did some experiments using , say , two seconds , or four seconds , or six seconds . in those i trained the models using mean subtraction with the means calculated over two seconds , or four seconds , or six seconds . and , um , here , i was curious , what if i trained the models using twelve seconds but i f i gave it a situation where the test set i was subtracted using two seconds , or four seconds , or six seconds . and , um so i did that for about three different conditions . and , um i mean , i th i think it was , um , four se i think i think it was , um , something like four seconds and , um , six seconds , and eight seconds . something like that . and it seems like it it it hurts compared to if you actually train the models { comment } using th that same length of time but it it does n't hurt that much . um , u usually less than point five percent , although i think i did see one where it was a point eight percent or so rise in word error rate . but this is , um , w where , um , even if i train on the , uh , model , and mean subtracted it with the same length of time as in the test , it the word error rate is around , um , ten percent or nine percent . so it does n't seem like that big a d a difference . professor c: but it but looking at it the other way , is n't it what you 're saying that it did n't help you to have the longer time for training , if you were going to have a short time for grad e: that that 's true . um , professor c: i mean , why would you do it , if you knew that you were going to have short windows in testing . grad e: wa phd a: yeah , it seems like for your i mean , in normal situations you would never get twelve seconds of speech , right ? i 'm not e u phd b: you need twelve seconds in the past to estimate , right ? or l or you 're looking at six sec seconds in future and six in professor c: yeah . grad e: um , t twelve s professor c: no , total . grad e: n n uh for the test it 's just twelve seconds in the past . phd b: no , it 's all oh , ok . phd a: is this twelve seconds of uh , regardless of speech or silence ? or twelve seconds of speech ? grad e: of of speech . phd a: ok . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: the other thing , um , which maybe relates a little bit to something else we 've talked about in terms of windowing and so on is , that , um , i wonder if you trained with twelve seconds , and then when you were two seconds in you used two seconds , and when you were four seconds in , you used four seconds , and when you were six and you basically build up to the twelve seconds . so that if you have very long utterances you have the best , grad e: yeah . professor c: but if you have shorter utterances you use what you can . grad e: right . and that 's actually what we 're planning to do in professor c: ok . yeah . grad e: but s so i g so i guess the que the question i was trying to get at with those experiments is , `` does it matter what models you use ? does it matter how much time y you use to calculate the mean when you were , um , tra doing the training data ? `` professor c: right . but i mean the other thing is that that 's i mean , the other way of looking at this , going back to , uh , mean cepstral subtraction versus rasta kind of things , is that you could look at mean cepstral subtraction , especially the way you 're doing it , uh , as being a kind of filter . and so , the other thing is just to design a filter . you know , basically you 're you 're you 're doing a high - pass filter or a band - pass filter of some sort and and just design a filter . and then , you know , a filter will have a certain behavior and you loo can look at the start up behavior when you start up with nothing . grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: and and , you know , it will , uh , if you have an iir filter for instance , it will , um , uh , not behave in the steady - state way that you would like it to behave until you get a long enough period , but , um , uh , by just constraining yourself to have your filter be only a subtraction of the mean , you 're kind of , you know , tying your hands behind your back because there 's filters have all sorts of be temporal and spectral behaviors . grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: and the only thing , you know , consistent that we know about is that you want to get rid of the very low frequency component . grad e: hmm . phd b: but do you really want to calculate the mean ? and you neglect all the silence regions { comment } or you just use everything that 's twelve seconds , and grad e: um , you do you mean in my tests so far ? phd b: ye - yeah . grad e: most of the silence has been cut out . phd b: ok . grad e: just there 's just inter - word silences . phd b: mm - hmm . and they are , like , pretty short . shor grad e: pretty short . phd b: yeah , ok . grad e: yeah . phd b: yeah . mm - hmm . so you really need a lot of speech to estimate the mean of it . grad e: well , if i only use six seconds , it still works pretty well . phd b: yeah . yeah . uh - huh . grad e: i saw in my test before . i was trying twelve seconds cuz that was the best in my test before phd b: ok . grad e: and that increasing past twelve seconds did n't seem to help . phd b: hmm . huh . grad e: th um , yeah , i guess it 's something i need to play with more to decide how to set that up for the smartkom system . like , may maybe if i trained on six seconds it would work better when i only had two seconds or four seconds , and professor c: yeah . yeah . and , um grad e: ok . professor c: yeah , and again , if you take this filtering perspective and if you essentially have it build up over time . i mean , if you computed means over two and then over four , and over six , essentially what you 're getting at is a kind of , uh , ramp up of a filter anyway . and so you may may just want to think of it as a filter . but , uh , if you do that , then , um , in practice somebody using the smartkom system , one would think { comment } if they 're using it for a while , it means that their first utterance , instead of , you know , getting , uh , a forty percent error rate reduction , they 'll get a uh , over what , uh , you 'd get without this , uh , um , policy , uh , you get thirty percent . and then the second utterance that you give , they get the full you know , uh , full benefit of it if it 's this ongoing thing . phd a: oh , so you you cache the utterances ? that 's how you get your , uh professor c: well , i 'm saying in practice , yeah , grad e: m phd a: ah . ok . professor c: that 's if somebody 's using a system to ask for directions or something , phd a: ok . professor c: you know , they 'll say something first . and and to begin with if it does n't get them quite right , ma m maybe they 'll come back and say , `` excuse me ? `` phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: uh , or some i mean it should have some policy like that anyway . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and and , uh , uh , in any event they might ask a second question . and it 's not like what he 's doing does n't , uh , improve things . it does improve things , just not as much as he would like . and so , uh , there 's a higher probability of it making an error , uh , in the first utterance . phd a: what would be really cool is if you could have uh , this probably users would never like this but if you had could have a system where , before they began to use it they had to introduce themselves , verbally . professor c: mm - hmm . phd a: you know . `` hi , my name is so - and - so , professor c: yeah . phd a: i 'm from blah - blah - blah . `` and you could use that initial speech to do all these adaptations and professor c: right . grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: oh , the other thing i guess which which , uh , i do n't know much about as much as i should about the rest of the system but but , um , could n't you , uh , if you if you sort of did a first pass i do n't know what kind of , uh , uh , capability we have at the moment for for doing second passes on on , uh , uh , some kind of little small lattice , or a graph , or confusion network , or something . but if you did first pass with , um , the with either without the mean sub subtraction or with a a very short time one , and then , um , once you , uh , actually had the whole utterance in , if you did , um , the , uh , uh , longer time version then , based on everything that you had , um , and then at that point only used it to distinguish between , you know , top n , um , possible utterances or something , you you might it might not take very much time . i mean , i know in the large vocabulary stu uh , uh , systems , people were evaluating on in the past , some people really pushed everything in to make it in one pass but other people did n't and had multiple passes . and , um , the argument , um , against multiple passes was u u has often been `` but we want to this to be r you know have a nice interactive response `` . and the counterargument to that which , say , uh , bbn i think had , { comment } was `` yeah , but our second responses are second , uh , passes and third passes are really , really fast `` . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: so , um , if if your second pass takes a millisecond who cares ? um . grad e: s so , um , the the idea of the second pass would be waiting till you have more recorded speech ? or ? professor c: yeah , so if it turned out to be a problem , that you did n't have enough speech because you need a longer longer window to do this processing , then , uh , one tactic is you know , looking at the larger system and not just at the front - end stuff { comment } is to take in , um , the speech with some simpler mechanism or shorter time mechanism , grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: um , do the best you can , and come up with some al possible alternates of what might have been said . and , uh , either in the form of an n - best list or in the form of a lattice , or or confusion network , or whatever . grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: and then the decoding of that is much , much faster or can be much , much faster if it is n't a big bushy network . and you can decode that now with speech that you 've actually processed using this longer time , uh , subtraction . grad e: mmm . professor c: so i mean , it 's it 's common that people do this sort of thing where they do more things that are more complex or require looking over more time , whatever , in some kind of second pass . grad e: mm - hmm . ok . professor c: um , and again , if the second pass is really , really fast uh , another one i 've heard of is is in in connected digit stuff , um , going back and l and through backtrace and finding regions that are considered to be a d a digit , but , uh , which have very low energy . grad e: mm - hmm . ok . professor c: so , uh i mean , there 's lots of things you can do in second passes , at all sorts of levels . anyway , i 'm throwing too many things out . but . phd a: so is that , uh that it ? grad e: i guess that 's it . phd a: ok , uh , do you wan na go , sunil ? phd b: yep . um , so , the last two weeks was , like so i 've been working on that wiener filtering . and , uh , found that , uh , s single like , i just do a s normal wiener filtering , like the standard method of wiener filtering . and that does n't actually give me any improvement over like i mean , uh , b it actually improves over the baseline but it 's not like it does n't meet something like fifty percent or something . so , i 've been playing with the v phd a: improves over the base line mfcc system ? yeah . phd b: yeah . yeah . yeah . so , um so that 's the improvement is somewhere around , like , thirty percent over the baseline . professor c: is that using in combination with something else ? phd b: no , just just one stage wiener filter professor c: with with a phd b: which is a standard wiener filter . professor c: no , no , but i mean in combination with our on - line normalization or with the lda ? phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . so i just plug in the wiener filtering . professor c: oh , ok . phd b: i mean , in the s in our system , where phd a: oh , ok . phd b: so , i di i di professor c: so , does it g does that mean it gets worse ? or ? phd b: no . it actually improves over the baseline of not having a wiener filter in the whole system . like i have an lda f lda plus on - line normalization , and then i plug in the wiener filter in that , professor c: yeah ? phd b: so it improves over not having the wiener filter . so it improves but it it does n't take it like be beyond like thirty percent over the baseline . so professor c: but that 's what i 'm confused about , cuz i think i thought that our system was more like forty percent without the wiener filtering . phd b: no , it 's like , uh , phd d: mmm . phd a: is this with the v new vad ? phd b: well , these are not no , it 's the old vad . so my baseline was , uh , nine this is like w the baseline is ninety - five point six eight , and eighty - nine , and professor c: so i mean , if you can do all these in word errors it 's a lot a lot easier actually . phd b: what was that ? sorry ? professor c: if you do all these in word error rates it 's a lot easier , right ? phd b: oh , ok , ok , ok . errors , right , i do n't have . professor c: ok , cuz then you can figure out the percentages . phd b: it 's all accuracies . professor c: yeah . phd d: the baseline is something similar to a w i mean , the t the the baseline that you are talking about is the mfcc baseline , right ? phd b: the t yeah , there are two baselines . phd d: or ? phd b: ok . so the baseline one baseline is mfcc baseline that when i said thirty percent improvement it 's like mfcc baseline . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so so so what 's it start on ? the mfcc baseline is is what ? is at what level ? phd b: it 's the it 's just the mel frequency and that 's it . professor c: no , what 's what 's the number ? phd b: uh , so i i do n't have that number here . ok , ok , ok , i have it here . uh , it 's the vad plus the baseline actually . i 'm talking about the the mfcc plus i do a frame dropping on it . so that 's like the word error rate is like four point three . like ten point seven . professor c: four point three . what 's ten point seven ? phd b: it 's a medium misma ok , sorry . there 's a well ma well matched , medium mismatched , and a high matched . professor c: ah . phd b: so i do n't have the like the professor c: yeah . phd b: so professor c: ok , four point three , ten point seven , phd b: and forty forty . professor c: and phd b: forty percent is the high mismatch . professor c: ok . phd b: and that becomes like four point three professor c: not changed . phd b: yeah , it 's like ten point one . still the same . and the high mismatch is like eighteen point five . professor c: eighteen point five . phd b: five . professor c: and what were you just describing ? phd b: oh , the one is this one is just the baseline plus the , uh , wiener filter plugged into it . professor c: but where 's the , uh , on - line normalization and so on ? phd b: oh , ok . so sorry . so , with the with the on - line normalization , the performance was , um , ten ok , so it 's like four point three . uh , and again , that 's the ba the ten point , uh , four and twenty point one . that was with on - line normalization and lda . so the h well matched has like literally not changed by adding on - line or lda on it . but the i mean , even the medium mismatch is pretty much the same . and the high mismatch was improved by twenty percent absolute . professor c: ok , and what kind of number an and what are we talking about here ? phd b: it 's the it - it 's italian . professor c: is this ti - digits phd b: i 'm talking about italian , professor c: or italian ? phd b: yeah . professor c: and what did so , what was the , um , uh , corresponding number , say , for , um , uh , the alcatel system for instance ? phd b: mmm . professor c: do you know ? phd d: yeah , so it looks to be , um phd b: you have it ? phd d: yep , it 's three point four , uh , eight point , uh , seven , and , uh , thirteen point seven . phd b: yep . professor c: ok . phd b: so thanks . professor c: ok . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: ok . phd b: so , uh , this is the single stage wiener filter , with the noise estimation was based on first ten frames . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: actually i started with using the vad to estimate the noise and then i found that it works it does n't work for finnish and spanish because the vad endpoints are not good to estimate the noise because it cuts into the speech sometimes , so i end up overestimating the noise and getting a worse result . so it works only for italian by u for using a vad to estimate noise . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: it works for italian because the vad was trained on italian . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: so , uh so this was , uh and so this was giving um , this this was like not improving a lot on this baseline of not having the wiener filter on it . and , so , uh , i ran this stuff with one more stage of wiener filtering on it but the second time , what i did was i estimated the new wiener filter based on the cleaned up speech , and did , uh , smoothing in the frequency to to reduce the variance professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean , i have i 've i 've observed there are , like , a lot of bumps in the frequency when i do this wiener filtering which is more like a musical noise or something . and so by adding another stage of wiener filtering , the results on the speechdat - car was like , um so , i still do n't have the word error rate . i 'm sorry about it . but the overall improvement was like fifty - six point four six . this was again using ten frames of noise estimate and two stage of wiener filtering . and the rest is like the lda plu and the on - line normalization all remaining the same . uh , so this was , like , compared to , uh , uh fifty - seven is what you got by using the french telecom system , right ? phd d: no , i do n't think so . phd b: y i phd d: is it on italian ? phd b: no , this is over the whole speechdat - car . so phd d: oh , yeah , fifty - seven phd b: point phd d: right . phd b: yeah , so the new the new wiener filtering schema is like some fifty - six point four six which is like one percent still less than what you got using the french telecom system . phd d: uh - huh . mm - hmm . professor c: but it 's a pretty similar number in any event . phd b: it 's very similar . professor c: yeah . but again , you 're you 're more or less doing what they were doing , right ? phd b: it 's it 's different in a sense like i 'm actually cleaning up the cleaned up spectrum which they 're not doing . they 're d what they 're doing is , they have two stage stages of estimating the wiener filter , but the final filter , what they do is they they take it to their time domain by doing an inverse fourier transform . professor c: yeah . phd b: and they filter the original signal using that fil filter , professor c: uh - huh . phd b: which is like final filter is acting on the input noisy speech rather than on the cleaned up . so this is more like i 'm doing wiener filter twice , but the only thing is that the second time i 'm actually smoothing the filter and then cleaning up the cleaned up spectrum first level . and so that that 's that 's what the difference is . professor c: ok . phd b: and actually i tried it on s the original clean i mean , the original spectrum where , like , i the second time i estimate the filter but actually clean up the noisy speech rather the c s first output of the first stage and that does n't seems to be a giving , i mean , that much improvement . i i didn did n't run it for the whole case . and and what i t what i tried was , by using the same thing but uh , so we actually found that the vad is very , like , crucial . i mean , just by changing the vad itself gives you the a lot of improvement professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: by instead of using the current vad , if you just take up the vad output from the channel zero , { comment } when instead of using channel zero and channel one , because that was the p that was the reason why i was not getting a lot of improvement for estimating { comment } the noise . so i just used the channel zero vad to estimate the noise so that it gives me some reliable mar markers for this noise estimation . professor c: what 's a channel zero vad ? phd b: um , professor c: i 'm i 'm confused about that . phd b: so , it 's like phd d: so it 's the close - talking microphone . phd b: yeah , the close - talking without professor c: oh , oh , oh , oh . phd b: so because the channel zero and channel one are like the same speech , but only w i mean , the same endpoints . professor c: phd b: but the only thing is that the speech is very noisy for channel one , so you can actually use the output of the channel zero for channel one for the vad . i mean , that 's like a cheating method . professor c: right . i mean , so a are they going to pro what are they doing to do , do we know yet ? about as far as what they 're what the rules are going to be and what we can use ? phd d: yeah , so actually i received a a new document , describing this . phd b: yeah , that 's phd d: and what they did finally is to , mmm , uh , not to align the utterances but to perform recognition , um , only on the close - talking microphone , phd b: which is the channel zero . phd d: and to take the result of the recognition to get the boundaries uh , of speech . professor c: so it 's not like that 's being done in one place or one time . phd d: and professor c: that 's that 's just a rule and we 'd you you were permitted to do that . is is that it ? phd d: uh , i think they will send , um , files but we we do n't well , apparently professor c: oh , so they will send files so everybody will have the same boundaries to work with ? phd d: yeah . yeah . phd b: but actually their alignment actually is not seems to be improving in like on all cases . professor c: ok . phd d: oh , i yeah , so what happened here is that , um , the overall improvement that they have with this method so well , to be more precise , what they have is , they have these alignments and then they drop the beginning silence and and the end silence but they keep , uh , two hundred milliseconds before speech and two hundred after speech . and they keep the speech pauses also . um , and the overall improvement over the mfcc baseline so , when they just , uh , add this frame dropping in addition it 's r uh , forty percent , right ? professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: fourteen percent , i mean . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah , which is phd d: um , which is , um , t which is the overall improvement . but in some cases it does n't improve at all . like , uh , y do you remember which case ? professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: it gives like negative well , in in like some italian and ti - digits , phd d: yeah , some @ @ . phd b: right ? phd d: right . phd b: yeah . so by using the endpointed speech , actually it 's worse than the baseline in some instances , which could be due to the word pattern . phd d: mmm . yeah . professor c: yeah , phd d: and yeah , the other thing also is that fourteen percent is less than what you obtain using a real vad . phd b: yeah , our neural net phd d: so with without cheating like this . phd b: yeah , yeah . phd d: so uh so i think this shows that there is still work uh , well , working on the vad is still still important i think . professor c: yeah , c phd d: uh phd a: can i ask just a a high level question ? can you just say like one or two sentences about wiener filtering and why why are people doing that ? phd b: hmm . phd a: what 's what 's the deal with that ? phd b: ok , so the wiener filter , it 's it 's like it 's like you try to minimize i mean , so the basic principle of wiener filter is like you try to minimize the , uh , d uh , difference between the noisy signal and the clean signal if you have two channels . like let 's say you have a clean t signal and you have an additional channel where you know what is the noisy signal . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: and then you try to minimize the error between these two . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: so that 's the basic principle . and you get you can do that i mean , if if you have only a c noisy signal , at a level which you , you w try to estimate the noise from the w assuming that the first few frames are noise or if you have a w voice activity detector , uh , you estimate the noise spectrum . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: and then you phd a: do you assume the noise is the same ? phd b: yeah . in yeah , after the speech starts . phd a: uh - huh . phd b: so but that 's not the case in , uh , many many of our cases but it works reasonably well . phd a: i see . phd b: and and then you what you do is you , uh b fff . so again , i can write down some of these eq oh , ok . yeah . and then you do this uh , this is the transfer function of the wiener filter , so `` sf `` is a clean speech spectrum , power spectrum phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: and `` n `` is the noisy power spectrum . and so this is the transfer function . professor c: right phd b: and , professor c: actually , i guess phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd b: and then you multiply your noisy power spectrum with this . you get an estimate of the clean power spectrum . phd a: i see . ok . phd b: so but the thing is that you have to estimate the sf from the noisy spectrum , what you have . so you estimate the nf from the initial noise portions and then you subtract that from the current noisy spectrum to get an estimate of the sf . so sometimes that becomes zero because you do you do n't have a true estimate of the noise . so the f filter will have like sometimes zeros in it phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: because some frequency values will be zeroed out because of that . and that creates a lot of discontinuities across the spectrum because @ @ the filter . so , uh , so that 's what that was just the first stage of wiener filtering that i tried . phd a: so is this , um , basically s uh , similar to just regular spectral subtraction ? phd b: it professor c: it 's all pretty related , phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah . it 's it 's there 's a di there 's a whole class of techniques where you try in some sense to minimize the noise . phd a: uh - huh . professor c: and it 's typically a mean square sense , uh uh uh , i in in in some way . and , uh uh , spectral subtraction is is , uh uh , one approach to it . phd a: do people use the wiener filtering in combination with the spectral subtraction typically , or is i are they sort of competing techniques ? phd b: not seen . they are very s similar techniques . phd a: yeah . o oh , ok . phd b: so it 's like i have n't seen anybody using s wiener filter with spectral subtraction . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: i see , i see . professor c: i mean , in the long run you 're doing the same thing phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . professor c: but y but there you make different approximations , and in spectral subtraction , for instance , there 's a a an estimation factor . phd a: mmm . professor c: you sometimes will figure out what the noise is and you 'll multiply that noise spectrum times some constant and subtract that rather than and sometimes people even though this really should be in the power domain , sometimes people s work in the magnitude domain because it it it works better . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and , uh , uh , you know . phd a: so why did you choose , uh , wiener filtering over some other one of these other techniques ? phd b: uh , the reason was , like , we had this choice of using spectral subtraction , wiener filtering , and there was one more thing which i which i 'm trying , is this sub space approach . so , stephane is working on spectral subtraction . phd a: oh , ok . phd b: so i picked up phd a: so you 're sort of trying @ @ them all . phd b: y yeah , phd a: ah , phd b: we just wanted to have a few noise production compensation techniques phd a: i see . oh , ok . phd b: and then pick some from that phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: pick one . professor c: i m i mean yeah , i mean , there 's car - carmen 's working on another , on the vector taylor series . phd b: va yeah , vad . w yeah . professor c: so they were just kind of trying to cover a bunch of different things with this task and see , you know , what are what are the issues for each of them . phd a: ah , ok . that makes sense . phd b: yeah . phd a: yeah . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: um . phd a: cool , thanks . phd b: so so one of one of the things that i tried , like i said , was to remove those zeros in the fri filter by doing some smoothing of the filter . professor c: yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: like , you estimate the edge of square and then you do a f smoothing across the frequency so that those zeros get , like , flattened out . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: and that does n't seems to be improving by trying it on the first time . so what i did was like i p did this and then you i plugged in the one more the same thing but with the smoothed filter the second time . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: and that seems to be working . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: so that 's where i got like fifty - six point five percent improvement on speechdat - car with that . and so the other thing what i tried was i used still the ten frames of noise estimate but i used this channel zero vad to drop the frames . so i 'm not still not estimating . and that has taken the performance to like sixty - seven percent in speechdat - car , which is which which like sort of shows that by using a proper vad you can just take it to further , better levels . and so . phd a: so that 's sort of like , you know , best - case performance ? phd b: yeah , so far i 've seen sixty - seven i mean , no , i have n't seen s like sixty - seven percent . and , uh , using the channel zero vad to estimate the noise also seems to be improving but i do n't have the results for all the cases with that . so i used channel zero vad to estimate noise as a lesser 2 x frame , which is like , everywhere i use the channel zero vad . and that seems to be the best combination , uh , rather than using a few frames to estimate and then drop a channel . professor c: so i 'm i 'm still a little confused . is that channel zero information going to be accessible during this test . phd b: nnn , no . this is just to test whether we can really improve by using a better vad . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: so , professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean so this is like the noise compensation f is fixed phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: but you make a better decision on the endpoints . that 's , like seems to be professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: so we c so i mean , which which means , like , by using this technique what we improve just the vad professor c: yes . phd b: we can just take the performance by another ten percent or better . professor c: ok . phd b: so , that that was just the , uh , reason for doing that experiment . and , w um yeah , but this all these things , i have to still try it on the ti - digits , which is like i 'm just running . and there seems to be not improving a a lot on the ti - digits , so i 'm like investigating that , why it 's not . and , um , um well after that . so , uh so the other the other thing is like i 've been i 'm doing all this stuff on the power spectrum . so tried this stuff on the mel as well mel and the magnitude , and mel magnitude , and all those things . but it seems to be the power spectrum seems to be getting the best result . so , one of one of reasons i thought like doing the averaging , after the filtering using the mel filter bank , that seems to be maybe helping rather than trying it on the mel filter ba filtered outputs . professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd b: so just th professor c: ma makes sense . phd b: yeah , th that 's that 's the only thing that i could think of why why it 's giving improvement on the mel . and , yep . so that 's it . professor c: uh , how about the subspace stuff ? phd b: subspace , { comment } i 'm i 'm like that 's still in a little bit in the back burner because i 've been p putting a lot effort on this to make it work , on tuning things and other stuff . professor c: ok . phd b: so i was like going parallely but not much of improvement . i 'm just have some skeletons ready , need some more time for it . professor c: ok . phd b: mmm . phd a: tha - that it ? phd b: yep . yep . phd a: cool . do you wan na go , stephane ? phd d: uh , yeah . so , i 've been , uh , working still on the spectral subtraction . um , so to r to remind you a little bit of of what i did before , is just to apply some spectral subtraction with an overestimation factor also to get , um , an estimate of the noise , uh , spectrum , and subtract this estimation of the noise spectrum from the , uh , signal spectrum , { comment } but subtracting more when the snr is is , uh , low , which is a technique that it 's often used . phd a: `` subtracting more `` , meaning ? phd d: so you overestimate the noise spectrum . you multiply the noise spectrum by a factor , uh , which depends on the snr . phd a: oh , ok . i see . phd d: so , above twenty db , it 's one , so you just subtract the noise . phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: and then it 's b generally well , i use , actually , a linear , uh , function of the snr , phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: which is bounded to , like , two or three , { comment } when the snr is below zero db . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: um , doing just this , uh , either on the fft bins or on the mel bands , um , t does n't yield any improvement professor c: oh ! um , uh , what are you doing with negative , uh , powers ? phd d: o yeah . so there is also a threshold , of course , because after subtraction you can have negative energies , phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: and so what i i just do is to put , uh to to add to put the threshold first and then to add a small amount of noise , which right now is speech - shaped . um phd a: speech - shaped ? phd d: yeah , so it 's a it has the overall overall energy , uh pow it has the overall power spectrum of speech . so with a bump around one kilohertz . phd a: so when y when you talk about there being something less than zero after subtracting the noise , is that at a particular frequency bin ? phd d: i uh - huh . yeah . phd a: ok . phd d: there can be frequency bins with negative values . phd a: and so when you say you 're adding something that has the overall shape of speech , is that in a in a particular frequency bin ? or you 're adding something across all the frequencies when you get these negatives ? phd d: for each frequencies i a i 'm adding some , uh , noise , but the a the amount of the amount of noise i add is not the same for all the frequency bins . phd a: ah ! ok . i gotcha . right . phd d: uh . right now i do n't think if it makes sense to add something that 's speech - shaped , because then you have silence portion that have some spectra similar to the sp the overall speech spectra . phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: but yeah . so this is something i can still work on , phd a: so what does that mean ? phd d: but hmm . phd a: i 'm trying to understand what it means when you do the spectral subtraction and you get a negative . it means that at that particular frequency range you subtracted more energy than there was actually phd d: that means that mm - hmm . yeah . so so yeah , you have an an estimation of the noise spectrum , but sometimes , of course , it 's as the noise is not perfectly stationary , sometimes this estimation can be , uh , too small , so you do n't subtract enough . but sometimes it can be too large also . if if the noise , uh , energy in this particular frequency band drops for some reason . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: mmm . phd a: so in in an ideal word i world { comment } if the noise were always the same , then , when you subtracted it the worst that i you would get would be a zero . i mean , the lowest you would get would be a zero , cuz i if there was no other energy there you 're just subtracting exactly the noise . professor c: right . phd d: mm - hmm , professor c: yep , there 's all there 's all sorts of , uh , deviations from the ideal here . phd d: yeah . professor c: i mean , for instance , you 're you 're talking about the signal and noise , um , at a particular point . and even if something is sort of stationary in ster terms of statistics , there 's no guarantee that any particular instantiation or piece of it is exactly a particular number or bounded by a particular range . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so , you 're figuring out from some chunk of of of the signal what you think the noise is . then you 're subtracting that from another chunk , phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and there 's absolutely no reason to think that you 'd know that it would n't , uh , be negative in some places . phd d: mm - hmm . hmm . professor c: uh , on the other hand that just means that in some sense you 've made a mistake because you certainly have stra subtracted a bigger number than is due to the noise . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: um also , we speak the whole where all this stuff comes from is from an assumption that signal and noise are uncorrelated . and that certainly makes sense in s in in a statistical interpretation , that , you know , over , um , all possible realizations that they 're uncorrelated phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: or assuming , uh , ergodicity that i that i um , across time , uh , it 's uncorrelated . but if you just look at a quarter second , uh , and you cross - multiply the two things , uh , you could very well , uh , end up with something that sums to something that 's not zero . so in fact , the two signals could have some relation to one another . and so there 's all sorts of deviations from ideal in this . and and given all that , you could definitely end up with something that 's negative . but if down the road you 're making use of something as if it is a power spectrum , um , then it can be bad to have something negative . now , the other thing i wonder about actually is , what if you left it negative ? what happens ? phd b: is that the log ? professor c: i mean , because um , are you taking the log before you add them up to the mel ? phd b: after that . no , after . professor c: right . so the thing is , i wonder how if you put your thresholds after that , i wonder how often you would end up with , uh with negative values . phd b: but you will but you end up reducing some neighboring frequency bins @ @ in the average , right ? when you add the negative to the positive value which is the true estimate . professor c: yeah . but nonetheless , uh , you know , these are it 's another f kind of smoothing , right ? that you 're doing . phd b: yeah . professor c: right . so , you 've done your best shot at figuring out what the noise should be , and now i then you 've subtracted it off . and then after that , instead of instead of , uh , uh , leaving it as is and adding things adding up some neighbors , you artificially push it up . phd b: hmm . professor c: which is , you know , it 's there 's no particular reason that that 's the right thing to do either , right ? phd b: yeah , yeah . professor c: so , um , uh , i in fact , what you 'd be doing is saying , `` well , we 're d we 're we 're going to definitely diminish the effect of this frequency in this little frequency bin in the in the overall mel summation `` . it 's just a thought . i d i do n't know if it would be phd a: sort of the opposite of that would be if if you find out you 're going to get a negative number , you do n't do the subtraction for that bin . phd b: yeah . uh - huh . that is true . professor c: nnn , yeah , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: although phd a: that would be almost the opposite , right ? instead of leaving it negative , you do n't do it . if your if your subtraction 's going to result in a negative number , you you do n't do subtraction in that . professor c: yeah , but that means that in a situation where you thought that that the bin was almost entirely noise , you left it . phd a: yeah . yeah , i 'm just saying that 's like the opposite . phd b: we just professor c: uh . phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd a: yeah . professor c: well , yeah that 's that 's the opposite , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah . phd d: and , yeah , some people also if it 's a negative value they , uh , re - compute it using inter interpolation from the edges and bins . phd b: for frames , frequency bins . professor c: yeah . phd d: well , there are different things that you can do . phd a: oh . professor c: people can also , uh , reflect it back up and essentially do a full wave rectification instead of a instead of half wave . phd a: oh . professor c: but it was just a thought that that it might be something to try . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . yep . well , actually i tried , something else based on this , um , is to to put some smoothing , um , because it seems to to help or it seems to help the wiener filtering professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and , mmm so what i did is , uh , some kind of nonlinear smoothing . actually i have a recursion that computes yeah , let me go back a little bit . actually , when you do spectral subtraction you can , uh , find this this equivalent in the s in the spectral domain . you can uh compute , y you can say that d your spectral subtraction is a filter , um , and the gain of this filter is the , um , signal energy minus what you subtract , divided by the signal energy . and this is a gain that varies over time , and , you know , of course , uh , depending on the s on the noise spectrum and on the speech spectrum . and what happen actually is that during low snr values , the gain is close to zero but it varies a lot . mmm , and this this is the cause of musical noise and all these the { comment } the fact you we go below zero one frame and then you can have an energy that 's above zero . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and mmm . so the smoothing is i did a smoothing actually on this gain , uh , trajectory . but it 's the smoothing is nonlinear in the sense that i tried to not smooth if the gain is high , because in this case we know that , uh , the estimate of the gain is correct because we we are not close to to to zero , um , and to do more smoothing if the gain is low . mmm . um . yeah . so , well , basically that 's this idea , and it seems to give pretty good results , uh , although i 've just just tested on italian and finnish . and on italian it seems my result seems to be a little bit better than the wiener filtering , phd b: mm - hmm . yeah , the one you showed yesterday . phd d: right ? phd b: right ? professor c: yeah . phd d: uh , i do n't know if you have these improvement the detailed improvements for italian , finnish , and spanish there phd b: fff . no , i do n't have , for each , phd d: or you have just have your own . phd b: i i just just have the final number here . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so these numbers he was giving before with the four point three , and the ten point one , and so forth , those were italian , right ? phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah . so so , no , professor c: yeah . phd d: uh phd b: i actually did n't give you the number which is the final one , phd d: uh , no , we 've phd b: which is , after two stages of wiener filtering . i mean , that was i just well , like the overall improvement is like fifty - six point five . so , professor c: right . phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean , his number is still better than what i got in the two stages of wiener filtering . phd d: yeah . professor c: right . phd d: on italian . but on finnish it 's a little bit worse , apparently . phd b: mm - hmm . phd d: um professor c: but do you have numbers in terms of word error rates on on italian ? so just so you have some sense of reference ? phd d: yeah . uh , so , it 's , uh , three point , uh , eight . professor c: uh - huh . phd d: am i right ? phd b: oh , ok . yeah , right , ok . phd d: and then , uh , d uh , nine point , uh , one . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and finally , uh , sixteen point five . professor c: and this is , um , spectral subtraction plus what ? phd d: plus plus nonlinear smoothing . well , it 's the system it 's exactly the sys the same system as sunil tried , professor c: on - line normalization and lda ? phd d: but professor c: yeah . yeah . phd d: yeah . but instead of double stage wiener filtering , it 's it 's this smoothed spectral subtraction . um , yeah . phd a: what is it the , um , france telecom system uses professor c: right . phd a: for do they use spectral subtraction , or wiener filtering , or ? phd b: they use spectral subtraction , right . phd d: for what ? phd b: french telecom . phd d: it it 's wiener filtering , phd b: oh , it 's it 's wiener filtering . phd d: am i right ? phd a: oh . phd b: sorry . phd d: well , it 's some kind of wiener filtering phd b: yeah , filtering . yeah , it 's not exactly wiener filtering but some variant of wiener filtering . phd d: yeah . phd a: i see . phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah , plus , uh , i guess they have some sort of cepstral normalization , as well . phd b: s they have like yeah , th the just noise compensation technique is a variant of wiener filtering , phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: plus they do some some smoothing techniques on the final filter . the th they actually do the filtering in the time domain . phd a: mmm . phd d: yeah . phd a: hmm . phd b: so they would take this hf squared back , taking inverse fourier transform . and they convolve the time domain signal with that . phd a: oh , i see . phd b: and they do some smoothing on that final filter , impulse response . phd a: hmm . phd d: but they also have two two different smoothing @ @ . phd b: i mean , i 'm i 'm @ @ . phd d: one in the time domain and one in the frequency domain by just taking the first , um , coefficients of the impulse response . phd b: but . phd d: so , basically it 's similar . i mean , what you did , it 's similar phd b: it 's similar in the smoothing and phd d: because you have also two two kind of smoothing . phd b: yeah . phd d: one in the time domain , and one in the frequency domain , phd b: yeah . the frequency domain . phd d: yeah . phd a: does the smoothing in the time domain help phd d: um phd a: well , do you get this musical noise stuff with wiener filtering or is that only with , uh , spectral subtraction ? phd b: no , you get it with wiener filtering also . phd d: yeah . phd a: does the smoothing in the time domain help with that ? or some other smoothing ? phd b: oh , no , you still end up with zeros in the s spectrum . sometimes . phd d: yeah . phd a: hmm . professor c: i mean , it 's not clear that these musical noises hurt us in recognition . phd a: hmm . professor c: we do n't know if they do . phd b: yeah . professor c: i mean , they they sound bad . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah , i know . professor c: but we 're not listening to it , usually . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: hmm . phd d: uh , actually the the smoothing that i did do here reduced the musical noise . well , it phd b: mm - hmm . yeah , yeah , phd d: mmm . phd b: the phd d: well , i can not you can not hear beca well , actually what i d did not say is that this is not in the fft bins . this is in the mel frequency bands . um so , it could be seen as a f a a smoothing in the frequency domain because i used , in ad mel bands in addition and then the other phase of smoothing in the time domain . mmm . but , when you look at the spectrogram , if you do n't have an any smoothing , you clearly see , like in silence portions , and at the beginning and end of speech , you see spots of high energy randomly distributed over the the spectrogram . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: um phd a: that 's the musical noise ? phd d: which is musical noise , phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah , if if it if you listen to it uh , if you do this in the fft bins , then you have spots of energy randomly distributing . and if you f if you re - synthesize these spot sounds as , like , sounds , phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: uh professor c: well , none of these systems , by the way , have i mean , y you both are are working with , um , our system that does not have the neural net , phd d: and phd b: yep . professor c: right ? phd b: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: ok . so one would hope , presumably , that the neural net part of it would would improve things further as as they did before . phd d: yeah . yeah . um yeah , although if if we , um , look at the result from the proposals , { comment } one of the reason , uh , the n system with the neural net was , um , more than well , around five percent better , is that it was much better on highly mismatched condition . i 'm thinking , for instance , on the ti - digits trained on clean speech and tested on noisy speech . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: uh , for this case , the system with the neural net was much better . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: but not much on the in the other cases . professor c: yeah . phd d: and if we have no , uh , spectral subtraction or wiener filtering , um , i the system is uh , we thought the neural neural network is much better than before , even in these cases of high mismatch . so , maybe the neural net will help less but , um professor c: maybe . phd a: could you train a neural net to do spectral subtraction ? professor c: yeah , it could do a nonlinear spectral subtraction phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: but i do n't know if it i mean , you have to figure out what your targets are . phd a: yeah , i was thinking if you had a clean version of the signal and and a noisy version , and your targets were the m f - uh , you know , whatever , frequency bins phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: right . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah , well , that 's not so much spectral subtraction then , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: but but but it 's but at any rate , yeah , people , uh phd a: people do that ? professor c: y yeah , in fact , we had visitors here who did that i think when you were here ba way back when . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: hmm . professor c: uh , people d done lots of experimentation over the years with training neural nets . and it 's not a bad thing to do . it 's another approach . phd a: hmm . professor c: m i mean , it 's it , um phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: the objection everyone always raises , which has some truth to it is that , um , it 's good for mapping from a particular noise to clean but then you get a different noise . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and the experiments we saw that visitors did here showed that it there was at least some , um , { comment } gentleness to the degradation when you switched to different noises . it did seem to help . so that you 're right , that 's another another way to go . phd a: how did it compare on i mean , for for good cases where it it uh , stuff that it was trained on ? did it do pretty well ? professor c: oh , yeah , it did very well . phd a: mmm . professor c: yeah . phd a: mmm . professor c: um , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: but to some extent that 's kind of what we 're doing . i mean , we 're not doing exactly that , we 're not trying to generate good examples but by trying to do the best classifier you possibly can , for these little phonetic categories , phd a: mm - hmm . you could say it 's sort of built in . professor c: it 's yeah , it 's kind of built into that . phd a: hmm . professor c: and and that 's why we have found that it it does help . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: um so , um , yeah , i mean , we 'll just have to try it . but i i would i would i would imagine that it will help some . i mean , it we 'll just have to see whether it helps more or less the same , but i would imagine it would help some . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so in any event , all of this i was just confirming that all of this was with a simpler system . phd d: yeah , professor c: ok ? phd d: yeah . um , yeah , so this is th the , um well , actually , this was kind of the first try with this spectral subtraction plus smoothing , professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and i was kind of excited by the result . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: um , then i started to optimize the different parameters . and , uh , the first thing i tried to optimize is the , um , time constant of the smoothing . and it seems that the one that i chose for the first experiment was the optimal one , so uh , professor c: it 's amazing how often that happens . phd d: um , so this is the first thing . um yeah , another thing that i it 's important to mention is , um , that this has a this has some additional latency . um . because when i do the smoothing , uh , it 's a recursion that estimated the means , so of the g of the gain curve . and this is a filter that has some latency . and i noticed that it 's better if we take into account this latency . so , instead o of using the current estimated mean to , uh , subtract the current frame , it 's better to use an estimate that 's some somewhere in the future . um phd a: and that 's what causes the latency ? ok . phd b: you mean , the m the mean is computed o based on some frames in the future also ? professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . phd b: or or no ? phd d: it 's the recursion , so it 's it 's the center recursion , right ? phd b: mm - hmm . phd d: um and the latency of this recursion is around fifty milliseconds . professor c: one five ? phd d: professor c: one five ? five zero ? phd d: five zero , professor c: five zero . phd d: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd d: um , phd b: i 'm sorry , phd d: mmm . phd b: why why is that delay coming ? like , you estimate the mean ? phd d: yeah , the mean estimation has some delay , right ? phd b: oh , yeah . phd d: i mean , the the filter that that estimates the mean has a time constant . phd b: it is n't ok , so it 's like it looks into the future also . ok . phd d: yeah . professor c: what if you just look into the past ? phd d: it 's , uh , not as good . it 's not bad . professor c: how m by how much ? phd d: um , it helps a lot over the ba the baseline but , mmm professor c: by how much ? phd d: it it 's around three percent , um , relative . professor c: worse . phd d: yeah . yeah . um , professor c: hmm . phd d: mmm so , uh professor c: it 's depending on how all this stuff comes out we may or may not be able to add any latency . phd d: yeah , but yeah . so , yeah , it depends . uh , y actually , it 's it 's l it 's three percent . right . mmm . yeah , b but i do n't think we have to worry too much on that right now while you kno . mm - hmm . professor c: um , s yeah , i mean , i think the only thing is that phd d: so professor c: i would worry about it a little . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: because if we completely ignore latency , and then we discover that we really have to do something about it , we 're going to be find ourselves in a bind . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so , um , you know , maybe you could make it twenty - five . you know what i mean ? phd d: yeah . professor c: yeah , just , you know , just be be a little conservative phd d: oh yes . professor c: because we may end up with this crunch where all of a sudden we have to cut the latency in half or something . phd d: s mm - hmm . yeah . professor c: ok . phd d: um . so , yeah , there are other things in the , um , algorithm that i did n't , uh , @ @ a lot yet , phd a: oh ! phd d: which phd a: sorry . a quick question just about the latency thing . if if there 's another part of the system that causes a latency of a hundred milliseconds , is this an additive thing ? or c or is yours hidden in that ? phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: uh phd d: no , it 's it 's added . phd a: it 's additive . ok . phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: we can ok . we can do something in parallel also , in some like some cases like , if you wanted to do voice activity detection . phd a: uh - huh . phd b: and we can do that in parallel with some other filtering you can do . phd d: mmm . phd b: so you can make a decision on that voice activity detection and then you decide whether you want to filter or not . phd d: yeah . phd b: but by then you already have the sufficient samples to do the filtering . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: so so , sometimes you can do it anyway . phd a: i mean , could n't , uh i could n't you just also i mean , i if you know that the l the largest latency in the system is two hundred milliseconds , do n't you could n't you just buffer up that number of frames and then everything uses that buffer ? phd b: yeah . phd a: and that way it 's not additive ? professor c: well , in fact , everything is sent over in buffers cuz of is n't it the tcp buffer some ? phd b: you mean , the the data , the super frame or something ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah , yeah . phd d: yeah . phd b: yeah , but that has a variable latency because the last frame does n't have any latency phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: and first frame has a twenty framed latency . so you ca n't r rely on that latency all the time . professor c: yeah . phd b: because i mean the transmission over over the air interface is like a buffer . phd d: yeah . phd b: twenty frame phd a: yeah . phd b: twenty four frames . phd a: yeah . phd b: so but the only thing is that the first frame in that twenty - four frame buffer has a twenty - four frame latency . and the last frame does n't have any latency . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: because it just goes as phd a: yeah , i was n't thinking of that one in particular phd b: yeah . phd a: but more of , you know , if if there is some part of your system that has to buffer twenty frames , uh , ca n't the other parts of the system draw out of that buffer and therefore not add to the latency ? professor c: yeah . yeah . and and that 's sort of one of the all of that sort of stuff is things that they 're debating in their standards committee . phd a: oh ! hmm . phd d: mm - hmm . yeah . so , um , there is uh , { comment } these parameters that i still have to to look at . like , i played a little bit with this overestimation factor , uh , but i still have to to look more at this , um , at the level of noise i add after . uh , i know that adding noise helped , um , the system just using spectral subtraction without smoothing , but i do n't know right now if it 's still important or not , and if the level i choose before is still the right one . same thing for the shape of the the noise . maybe it would be better to add just white noise instead of speech shaped noise . professor c: that 'd be more like the jrasta thing in a sense . yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . um , yep . uh , and another thing is to yeah , for this i just use as noise estimate the mean , uh , spectrum of the first twenty frames of each utterance . i do n't remember for this experiment what did you use for these two stage phd b: i used ten just ten frames . yeah , because phd d: the ten frames ? phd b: i mean , the reason was like in ti - digits i do n't have a lot . i had twenty frames most of the time . phd d: mm - hmm . um . but , so what 's this result you told me about , the fact that if you use more than ten frames you can improve by t phd b: well , that 's that 's using the channel zero . if i use a channel zero vad to estimate the noise . phd d: oh , ok . phd b: which phd d: but this is ten frames plus plus phd b: channel zero dropping . phd d: channel phd b: hmm . phd d: uh , no , these results with two stage wiener filtering is ten frames phd b: t oh , this phd d: but possibly more . i mean , if channel one vad gives you phd b: f yeah . mm - hmm . yeah . phd d: yeah . ok . yeah , but in this experiment i did i did n't use any vad . i just used the twenty first frame to estimate the noise . and so i expected it to be a little bit better , if , uh , i use more more frames . um . ok , that 's it for spectral subtraction . the second thing i was working on is to , um , try to look at noise estimation , { comment } mmm , and using some technique that does n't need voice activity detection . um , and for this i u simply used some code that , uh , i had from from belgium , which is technique that , um , takes a bunch of frame , um , and for each frequency bands of this frame , takes a look at the minima of the energy . and then average these minima and take this as an an energy estimate of the noise for this particular frequency band . and there is something more to this actually . what is done is that , uh , these minima are computed , um , based on , um , high resolution spectra . so , i compute an fft based on the long , uh , signal frame which is sixty - four millisecond phd a: so you have one minimum for each frequency ? phd d: what what i what i d uh , i do actually , is to take a bunch of to take a tile on the spectrogram and this tile is five hundred milliseconds long and two hundred hertz wide . phd a: mmm . phd d: and this tile uh , in this tile appears , like , the harmonics if you have a voiced sound , because it 's it 's the ftt bins . and when you take the m the minima of of these this tile , when you do n't have speech , these minima will give you some noise level estimate , if you have voiced speech , these minima will still give you some noise estimate because the minima are between the harmonics . and if you have other other kind of speech sounds then it 's not the case , but if the time frame is long enough , uh , like s five hundred milliseconds seems to be long enough , { comment } you still have portions which , uh , are very close whi which minima are very close to the noise energy . professor c: i 'm confused . you said five hundred milliseconds phd d: mmm ? professor c: but you said sixty - four milliseconds . which is which ? what ? phd d: sixty - four milliseconds is to compute the fft , uh , bins . professor c: yeah , phd d: the the fft . professor c: yeah . phd d: um , actually it 's better to use sixty - four milliseconds because , um , if you use thirty milliseconds , then , uh , because of the this short windowing and at low pitch , uh , sounds , the harmonics are not , wha uh , correctly separated . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: so if you take these minima , it b they will overestimate the noise a lot . professor c: so you take sixty - four millisecond f f ts and then you average them { comment } over five hundred ? or ? uh , what do you do over five hundred ? phd d: so i take to i take a bunch of these sixty - four millisecond frame to cover five hundred milliseconds , professor c: ah . ok . phd d: and then i look for the minima , phd a: mmm . professor c: i see . phd d: on the on on the bunch of uh fifty frames , right ? professor c: i see . phd d: mmm . so the interest of this is that , as y with this technique you can estimate u some reasonable noise spectra with only five hundred milliseconds of of signal , so if the the n the noise varies a lot , uh , you can track better track the noise , professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: which is not the case if you rely on the voice activity detector . so even if there are no no speech pauses , you can track the noise level . the only requirement is that you must have , in these five hundred milliseconds segment , { comment } you must have voiced sound at least . cuz this these will help you to to track the the noise level . um . so what i did is just to simply replace the vad - based , uh , noise estimate by this estimate , first on speechdat - car well , only on speechdat - car actually . and it 's , uh , slightly worse , like one percent relative compared to the vad - based estimates . um , i think the reason why it 's not better , is that the speechdat - car noises are all stationary . um . so , u y y there really is no need to have something that 's adaptive professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and uh , well , they are mainly stationary . um . but , i expect s maybe some improvement on ti - digits because , nnn , in this case the noises are all sometimes very variable . uh , so i have to test it . mmm . professor c: but are you comparing with something e i 'm i 'm p s a little confused again , i it uh , when you compare it with the v a d - based , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: vad - is this is this the ? phd d: it 's it 's the france - telecom - based spectra , s uh , wiener filtering and vad . so it 's their system but just i replace their noise estimate by this one . professor c: oh , you 're not doing this with our system ? phd d: in i i 'm not no , no . yeah , it 's our system but with just the wiener filtering from their system . right ? mmm . professor c: ok . phd d: yeah . actually , th the best system that we still have is , uh , our system but with their noise compensation scheme , right ? professor c: right . but phd d: so i 'm trying to improve on this , and by by replacing their noise estimate by , uh , something that might be better . professor c: ok . but the spectral subtraction scheme that you reported on also re requires a a noise estimate . phd d: yeah . yeah . professor c: could n't you try this for that ? phd d: but i di professor c: do you think it might help ? phd d: not yet , because i did this in parallel , professor c: i see , phd d: and i was working on one and the other . professor c: i see . yeah . phd d: um , phd b: yeah . phd d: yeah , for for sure i will . i can try also , mmm , the spectral subtraction . phd b: so i 'm also using that n new noise estimate technique on this wiener filtering what i 'm trying . professor c: ok . phd b: so i i have , like , some experiments running , i do n't have the results . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah . phd b: so . professor c: yeah . phd b: i do n't estimate the f noise on the ten frames but use his estimate . professor c: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . um . yeah . i , um , also implemented a sp um spectral whitening idea which is in the , um , ericsson proposal . uh , the idea is just to um , flatten the log , uh , spectrum , um , and to flatten it more if the the probability of silence is higher . so in this way , you can also reduce somewhat reduce the musical noise and you reduce the variability if you have different noise shapes , because the the spectrum becomes more flat in the silence portions . um . yeah . with this , no improvement , uh , but there are a lot of parameters that we can play with and , um actually , this this could be seen as a soft version of the frame dropping because , um , you could just put the threshold and say that `` below the threshold , i will flatten comp completely flatten the the spectrum `` . and above this threshold , uh , keep the same spectrum . so it would be like frame dropping , because during the silence portions which are below the threshold of voice activity probability , { comment } uh , w you would have some kind of dummy frame which is a perfectly flat spectrum . and this , uh , whitening is something that 's more soft because , um , you whiten you just , uh , have a function the whitening is a function of the speech probability , so it 's not a hard decision . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: um , so i think maybe it can be used together with frame dropping and when we are not sure about if it 's speech or silence , well , maybe it has something do with this . professor c: it 's interesting . i mean , um , you know , in in jrasta we were essentially adding in , uh , white uh , white noise dependent on our estimate of the noise . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: on the overall estimate of the noise . uh , i think it never occurred to us to use a probability in there . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: you could imagine one that that that made use of where where the amount that you added in was , uh , a function of the probability of it being s speech or noise . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . yeah , w yeah , right now it 's a constant that just depending on the the noise spectrum . phd b: there 's professor c: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: cuz that that brings in sort of powers of classifiers that we do n't really have in , uh , this other estimate . so it could be it could be interesting . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: what what what point does the , uh , system stop recording ? how much phd a: it 'll keep going till i guess when they run out of disk space , professor c: it went a little long ? i mean , disk phd a: but i think we 're ok . phd d: so . professor c: ok . phd d: yeah . uh yeah , so there are with this technique there are some i just did something exactly the same as as the ericsson proposal but , um , the probability of speech is not computed the same way . and i think , i for yeah , for a lot of things , actually a g a good speech probability is important . like for frame dropping you improve , like you can improve from ten percent as sunil showed , if you use the channel zero speech probabilities . professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: for this it might help , um professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: s so , yeah . uh , so yeah , the next thing i started to do is to , uh , try to develop a better voice activity detector . and , um i d um yeah , for this i think we can maybe try to train the neural network for voice activity detection on all the data that we have , including all the speechdat - car data . um and so i 'm starting to obtain alignments on these databases . um , and the way i mi i do that is that i just use the htk system but i train it only on the close - talking microphone . and then i aligned i obtained the viterbi alignment of the training utterances . um it seems to be , uh i actually what i observed is that for italian it does n't seem th - there seems to be a problem . phd b: no . so , it does n't seems to help by their use of channel zero or channel one . phd d: well . because what ? phd b: uh , you mean their d the frame dropping , right ? yeah , it does n't phd d: yeah . yeah . so , u but actually the vad was trained on italian also , phd b: italian . phd d: so um , the c the current vad that we have was trained on , uh , t spine , right ? phd b: ti - digits . phd d: italian , and ti - digits with noise and phd b: phd d: uh , yeah . and it seems to work on italian but not on the finnish and spanish data . so , maybe one reason is that s s finnish and spanish noise are different . and actually we observed we listened to some of the utterances and sometimes for finnish there is music in the recordings and strange things , right ? phd b: yeah . phd d: um yeah , so the idea was to train all the databases and obtain an alignment to train on these databases , and , um , also to , um , try different kind of features , uh , as input to the vad network . and we came up with a bunch of features that we want to try like , um , the spectral slope , the , um , the degree o degree of voicing with the features that , uh , we started to develop with carmen , um , e with , uh , the correlation between bands and different kind of features , phd b: yeah . mm - hmm . phd d: and yeah . phd b: the energy also . phd d: the energy . phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah , right . phd d: yeah . of course . yeah . professor c: ok . well , hans - guenter will be here next week so i think he 'll be interested in all all of these things . and , so . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: mmm . phd a: ok , shall we , uh , do digits ? professor c: yeah . phd a: want to go ahead , morgan ? professor c: sure . phd a: ok .

the meeting began with a short introduction to hans guenter , who was arriving soon and would be visiting for a few weeks . the team then discussed integrating mean log magnitude spectral subtraction into the smartkom system . it seemed , however , that lengthening the time for this task was not very effective . the team also learned more about wiener filtering which worked well when mixed with other approaches . it was almost as effective as the best systems . the team then delved into spectral subtraction and discussed the various ways in which it could be refined . the meeting ended with comments on the additional latency that was caused by this method .

summarize the discussion on the mean log magnitude spectral subtraction </s> phd a: ok , we 're going . phd d: damn . professor c: and uh hans - uh , hans - guenter will be here , um , i think by next next tuesday or so . phd b: oh , ok . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so he 's he 's going to be here for about three weeks , phd b: oh ! that 's nice . phd a: just for a visit ? professor c: and , uh uh , we 'll see . phd a: huh . professor c: we might might end up with some longer collaboration or something . phd a: cool . professor c: so he 's gon na look in on everything we 're doing phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: and give us his his thoughts . and so it 'll be another another good person looking at things . phd b: oh . hmm . grad e: th - that 's his spectral subtraction group ? professor c: yeah , grad e: is that right ? professor c: yeah . grad e: oh , ok . so i guess i should probably talk to him a bit too ? professor c: oh , yeah . yeah . yeah . no , he 'll be around for three weeks . he 's , uh , um , very , very , easygoing , easy to talk to , and , uh , very interested in everything . phd a: really nice guy . professor c: yeah , yeah . phd b: yeah , we met him in amsterdam . professor c: yeah , yeah , he 's been here before . phd b: oh , ok . professor c: i mean , he 's he 's he 's he 's phd a: wh - back when i was a grad student he was here for a , uh , uh a year or { comment } n six months . phd b: i have n't noticed him . professor c: n nine months . phd a: something like that . professor c: something like that . phd a: yeah . professor c: yeah . yeah . he 's he 's done a couple stays here . phd b: hmm . professor c: yeah . phd a: so , um , { comment } i guess we got lots to catch up on . and we have n't met for a couple of weeks . we did n't meet last week , morgan . um , i went around and talked to everybody , and it seemed like they they had some new results but rather than them coming up and telling me i figured we should just wait a week and they can tell both you know , all of us . so , um , why do n't we why do n't we start with you , dave , and then , um , we can go on . grad e: oh , ok . phd a: so . grad e: so , um , since we 're looking at putting this , um mean log m magnitude spectral subtraction , um , into the smartkom system , i i did a test seeing if , um , it would work using past only { comment } and plus the present to calculate the mean . so , i did a test , um , where i used twelve seconds from the past and the present frame to , um , calculate the mean . and phd a: twelve seconds twelve twelve seconds back from the current frame , is that what you mean ? grad e: uh twelve seconds , um , counting back from the end of the current frame , phd a: ok , ok . grad e: yeah . so it was , um , twen i think it was twenty - one frames and that worked out to about twelve seconds . phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: and compared to , um , do using a twelve second centered window , i think there was a drop in performance but it was just a slight drop . phd a: hmm ! professor c: mm - hmm . grad e: is is that right ? professor c: um , yeah , i mean , it was pretty it was pretty tiny . yeah . grad e: uh - huh . so that was encouraging . and , um , that that um , that 's encouraging for for the idea of using it in an interactive system like and , um , another issue i 'm i 'm thinking about is in the smartkom system . so say twe twelve seconds in the earlier test seemed like a good length of time , but what happens if you have less than twelve seconds ? and , um so i w bef before , um back in may , i did some experiments using , say , two seconds , or four seconds , or six seconds . in those i trained the models using mean subtraction with the means calculated over two seconds , or four seconds , or six seconds . and , um , here , i was curious , what if i trained the models using twelve seconds but i f i gave it a situation where the test set i was subtracted using two seconds , or four seconds , or six seconds . and , um so i did that for about three different conditions . and , um i mean , i th i think it was , um , four se i think i think it was , um , something like four seconds and , um , six seconds , and eight seconds . something like that . and it seems like it it it hurts compared to if you actually train the models { comment } using th that same length of time but it it does n't hurt that much . um , u usually less than point five percent , although i think i did see one where it was a point eight percent or so rise in word error rate . but this is , um , w where , um , even if i train on the , uh , model , and mean subtracted it with the same length of time as in the test , it the word error rate is around , um , ten percent or nine percent . so it does n't seem like that big a d a difference . professor c: but it but looking at it the other way , is n't it what you 're saying that it did n't help you to have the longer time for training , if you were going to have a short time for grad e: that that 's true . um , professor c: i mean , why would you do it , if you knew that you were going to have short windows in testing . grad e: wa phd a: yeah , it seems like for your i mean , in normal situations you would never get twelve seconds of speech , right ? i 'm not e u phd b: you need twelve seconds in the past to estimate , right ? or l or you 're looking at six sec seconds in future and six in professor c: yeah . grad e: um , t twelve s professor c: no , total . grad e: n n uh for the test it 's just twelve seconds in the past . phd b: no , it 's all oh , ok . phd a: is this twelve seconds of uh , regardless of speech or silence ? or twelve seconds of speech ? grad e: of of speech . phd a: ok . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: the other thing , um , which maybe relates a little bit to something else we 've talked about in terms of windowing and so on is , that , um , i wonder if you trained with twelve seconds , and then when you were two seconds in you used two seconds , and when you were four seconds in , you used four seconds , and when you were six and you basically build up to the twelve seconds . so that if you have very long utterances you have the best , grad e: yeah . professor c: but if you have shorter utterances you use what you can . grad e: right . and that 's actually what we 're planning to do in professor c: ok . yeah . grad e: but s so i g so i guess the que the question i was trying to get at with those experiments is , `` does it matter what models you use ? does it matter how much time y you use to calculate the mean when you were , um , tra doing the training data ? `` professor c: right . but i mean the other thing is that that 's i mean , the other way of looking at this , going back to , uh , mean cepstral subtraction versus rasta kind of things , is that you could look at mean cepstral subtraction , especially the way you 're doing it , uh , as being a kind of filter . and so , the other thing is just to design a filter . you know , basically you 're you 're you 're doing a high - pass filter or a band - pass filter of some sort and and just design a filter . and then , you know , a filter will have a certain behavior and you loo can look at the start up behavior when you start up with nothing . grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: and and , you know , it will , uh , if you have an iir filter for instance , it will , um , uh , not behave in the steady - state way that you would like it to behave until you get a long enough period , but , um , uh , by just constraining yourself to have your filter be only a subtraction of the mean , you 're kind of , you know , tying your hands behind your back because there 's filters have all sorts of be temporal and spectral behaviors . grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: and the only thing , you know , consistent that we know about is that you want to get rid of the very low frequency component . grad e: hmm . phd b: but do you really want to calculate the mean ? and you neglect all the silence regions { comment } or you just use everything that 's twelve seconds , and grad e: um , you do you mean in my tests so far ? phd b: ye - yeah . grad e: most of the silence has been cut out . phd b: ok . grad e: just there 's just inter - word silences . phd b: mm - hmm . and they are , like , pretty short . shor grad e: pretty short . phd b: yeah , ok . grad e: yeah . phd b: yeah . mm - hmm . so you really need a lot of speech to estimate the mean of it . grad e: well , if i only use six seconds , it still works pretty well . phd b: yeah . yeah . uh - huh . grad e: i saw in my test before . i was trying twelve seconds cuz that was the best in my test before phd b: ok . grad e: and that increasing past twelve seconds did n't seem to help . phd b: hmm . huh . grad e: th um , yeah , i guess it 's something i need to play with more to decide how to set that up for the smartkom system . like , may maybe if i trained on six seconds it would work better when i only had two seconds or four seconds , and professor c: yeah . yeah . and , um grad e: ok . professor c: yeah , and again , if you take this filtering perspective and if you essentially have it build up over time . i mean , if you computed means over two and then over four , and over six , essentially what you 're getting at is a kind of , uh , ramp up of a filter anyway . and so you may may just want to think of it as a filter . but , uh , if you do that , then , um , in practice somebody using the smartkom system , one would think { comment } if they 're using it for a while , it means that their first utterance , instead of , you know , getting , uh , a forty percent error rate reduction , they 'll get a uh , over what , uh , you 'd get without this , uh , um , policy , uh , you get thirty percent . and then the second utterance that you give , they get the full you know , uh , full benefit of it if it 's this ongoing thing . phd a: oh , so you you cache the utterances ? that 's how you get your , uh professor c: well , i 'm saying in practice , yeah , grad e: m phd a: ah . ok . professor c: that 's if somebody 's using a system to ask for directions or something , phd a: ok . professor c: you know , they 'll say something first . and and to begin with if it does n't get them quite right , ma m maybe they 'll come back and say , `` excuse me ? `` phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: uh , or some i mean it should have some policy like that anyway . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and and , uh , uh , in any event they might ask a second question . and it 's not like what he 's doing does n't , uh , improve things . it does improve things , just not as much as he would like . and so , uh , there 's a higher probability of it making an error , uh , in the first utterance . phd a: what would be really cool is if you could have uh , this probably users would never like this but if you had could have a system where , before they began to use it they had to introduce themselves , verbally . professor c: mm - hmm . phd a: you know . `` hi , my name is so - and - so , professor c: yeah . phd a: i 'm from blah - blah - blah . `` and you could use that initial speech to do all these adaptations and professor c: right . grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: oh , the other thing i guess which which , uh , i do n't know much about as much as i should about the rest of the system but but , um , could n't you , uh , if you if you sort of did a first pass i do n't know what kind of , uh , uh , capability we have at the moment for for doing second passes on on , uh , uh , some kind of little small lattice , or a graph , or confusion network , or something . but if you did first pass with , um , the with either without the mean sub subtraction or with a a very short time one , and then , um , once you , uh , actually had the whole utterance in , if you did , um , the , uh , uh , longer time version then , based on everything that you had , um , and then at that point only used it to distinguish between , you know , top n , um , possible utterances or something , you you might it might not take very much time . i mean , i know in the large vocabulary stu uh , uh , systems , people were evaluating on in the past , some people really pushed everything in to make it in one pass but other people did n't and had multiple passes . and , um , the argument , um , against multiple passes was u u has often been `` but we want to this to be r you know have a nice interactive response `` . and the counterargument to that which , say , uh , bbn i think had , { comment } was `` yeah , but our second responses are second , uh , passes and third passes are really , really fast `` . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: so , um , if if your second pass takes a millisecond who cares ? um . grad e: s so , um , the the idea of the second pass would be waiting till you have more recorded speech ? or ? professor c: yeah , so if it turned out to be a problem , that you did n't have enough speech because you need a longer longer window to do this processing , then , uh , one tactic is you know , looking at the larger system and not just at the front - end stuff { comment } is to take in , um , the speech with some simpler mechanism or shorter time mechanism , grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: um , do the best you can , and come up with some al possible alternates of what might have been said . and , uh , either in the form of an n - best list or in the form of a lattice , or or confusion network , or whatever . grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: and then the decoding of that is much , much faster or can be much , much faster if it is n't a big bushy network . and you can decode that now with speech that you 've actually processed using this longer time , uh , subtraction . grad e: mmm . professor c: so i mean , it 's it 's common that people do this sort of thing where they do more things that are more complex or require looking over more time , whatever , in some kind of second pass . grad e: mm - hmm . ok . professor c: um , and again , if the second pass is really , really fast uh , another one i 've heard of is is in in connected digit stuff , um , going back and l and through backtrace and finding regions that are considered to be a d a digit , but , uh , which have very low energy . grad e: mm - hmm . ok . professor c: so , uh i mean , there 's lots of things you can do in second passes , at all sorts of levels . anyway , i 'm throwing too many things out . but . phd a: so is that , uh that it ? grad e: i guess that 's it . phd a: ok , uh , do you wan na go , sunil ? phd b: yep . um , so , the last two weeks was , like so i 've been working on that wiener filtering . and , uh , found that , uh , s single like , i just do a s normal wiener filtering , like the standard method of wiener filtering . and that does n't actually give me any improvement over like i mean , uh , b it actually improves over the baseline but it 's not like it does n't meet something like fifty percent or something . so , i 've been playing with the v phd a: improves over the base line mfcc system ? yeah . phd b: yeah . yeah . yeah . so , um so that 's the improvement is somewhere around , like , thirty percent over the baseline . professor c: is that using in combination with something else ? phd b: no , just just one stage wiener filter professor c: with with a phd b: which is a standard wiener filter . professor c: no , no , but i mean in combination with our on - line normalization or with the lda ? phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . so i just plug in the wiener filtering . professor c: oh , ok . phd b: i mean , in the s in our system , where phd a: oh , ok . phd b: so , i di i di professor c: so , does it g does that mean it gets worse ? or ? phd b: no . it actually improves over the baseline of not having a wiener filter in the whole system . like i have an lda f lda plus on - line normalization , and then i plug in the wiener filter in that , professor c: yeah ? phd b: so it improves over not having the wiener filter . so it improves but it it does n't take it like be beyond like thirty percent over the baseline . so professor c: but that 's what i 'm confused about , cuz i think i thought that our system was more like forty percent without the wiener filtering . phd b: no , it 's like , uh , phd d: mmm . phd a: is this with the v new vad ? phd b: well , these are not no , it 's the old vad . so my baseline was , uh , nine this is like w the baseline is ninety - five point six eight , and eighty - nine , and professor c: so i mean , if you can do all these in word errors it 's a lot a lot easier actually . phd b: what was that ? sorry ? professor c: if you do all these in word error rates it 's a lot easier , right ? phd b: oh , ok , ok , ok . errors , right , i do n't have . professor c: ok , cuz then you can figure out the percentages . phd b: it 's all accuracies . professor c: yeah . phd d: the baseline is something similar to a w i mean , the t the the baseline that you are talking about is the mfcc baseline , right ? phd b: the t yeah , there are two baselines . phd d: or ? phd b: ok . so the baseline one baseline is mfcc baseline that when i said thirty percent improvement it 's like mfcc baseline . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so so so what 's it start on ? the mfcc baseline is is what ? is at what level ? phd b: it 's the it 's just the mel frequency and that 's it . professor c: no , what 's what 's the number ? phd b: uh , so i i do n't have that number here . ok , ok , ok , i have it here . uh , it 's the vad plus the baseline actually . i 'm talking about the the mfcc plus i do a frame dropping on it . so that 's like the word error rate is like four point three . like ten point seven . professor c: four point three . what 's ten point seven ? phd b: it 's a medium misma ok , sorry . there 's a well ma well matched , medium mismatched , and a high matched . professor c: ah . phd b: so i do n't have the like the professor c: yeah . phd b: so professor c: ok , four point three , ten point seven , phd b: and forty forty . professor c: and phd b: forty percent is the high mismatch . professor c: ok . phd b: and that becomes like four point three professor c: not changed . phd b: yeah , it 's like ten point one . still the same . and the high mismatch is like eighteen point five . professor c: eighteen point five . phd b: five . professor c: and what were you just describing ? phd b: oh , the one is this one is just the baseline plus the , uh , wiener filter plugged into it . professor c: but where 's the , uh , on - line normalization and so on ? phd b: oh , ok . so sorry . so , with the with the on - line normalization , the performance was , um , ten ok , so it 's like four point three . uh , and again , that 's the ba the ten point , uh , four and twenty point one . that was with on - line normalization and lda . so the h well matched has like literally not changed by adding on - line or lda on it . but the i mean , even the medium mismatch is pretty much the same . and the high mismatch was improved by twenty percent absolute . professor c: ok , and what kind of number an and what are we talking about here ? phd b: it 's the it - it 's italian . professor c: is this ti - digits phd b: i 'm talking about italian , professor c: or italian ? phd b: yeah . professor c: and what did so , what was the , um , uh , corresponding number , say , for , um , uh , the alcatel system for instance ? phd b: mmm . professor c: do you know ? phd d: yeah , so it looks to be , um phd b: you have it ? phd d: yep , it 's three point four , uh , eight point , uh , seven , and , uh , thirteen point seven . phd b: yep . professor c: ok . phd b: so thanks . professor c: ok . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: ok . phd b: so , uh , this is the single stage wiener filter , with the noise estimation was based on first ten frames . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: actually i started with using the vad to estimate the noise and then i found that it works it does n't work for finnish and spanish because the vad endpoints are not good to estimate the noise because it cuts into the speech sometimes , so i end up overestimating the noise and getting a worse result . so it works only for italian by u for using a vad to estimate noise . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: it works for italian because the vad was trained on italian . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: so , uh so this was , uh and so this was giving um , this this was like not improving a lot on this baseline of not having the wiener filter on it . and , so , uh , i ran this stuff with one more stage of wiener filtering on it but the second time , what i did was i estimated the new wiener filter based on the cleaned up speech , and did , uh , smoothing in the frequency to to reduce the variance professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean , i have i 've i 've observed there are , like , a lot of bumps in the frequency when i do this wiener filtering which is more like a musical noise or something . and so by adding another stage of wiener filtering , the results on the speechdat - car was like , um so , i still do n't have the word error rate . i 'm sorry about it . but the overall improvement was like fifty - six point four six . this was again using ten frames of noise estimate and two stage of wiener filtering . and the rest is like the lda plu and the on - line normalization all remaining the same . uh , so this was , like , compared to , uh , uh fifty - seven is what you got by using the french telecom system , right ? phd d: no , i do n't think so . phd b: y i phd d: is it on italian ? phd b: no , this is over the whole speechdat - car . so phd d: oh , yeah , fifty - seven phd b: point phd d: right . phd b: yeah , so the new the new wiener filtering schema is like some fifty - six point four six which is like one percent still less than what you got using the french telecom system . phd d: uh - huh . mm - hmm . professor c: but it 's a pretty similar number in any event . phd b: it 's very similar . professor c: yeah . but again , you 're you 're more or less doing what they were doing , right ? phd b: it 's it 's different in a sense like i 'm actually cleaning up the cleaned up spectrum which they 're not doing . they 're d what they 're doing is , they have two stage stages of estimating the wiener filter , but the final filter , what they do is they they take it to their time domain by doing an inverse fourier transform . professor c: yeah . phd b: and they filter the original signal using that fil filter , professor c: uh - huh . phd b: which is like final filter is acting on the input noisy speech rather than on the cleaned up . so this is more like i 'm doing wiener filter twice , but the only thing is that the second time i 'm actually smoothing the filter and then cleaning up the cleaned up spectrum first level . and so that that 's that 's what the difference is . professor c: ok . phd b: and actually i tried it on s the original clean i mean , the original spectrum where , like , i the second time i estimate the filter but actually clean up the noisy speech rather the c s first output of the first stage and that does n't seems to be a giving , i mean , that much improvement . i i didn did n't run it for the whole case . and and what i t what i tried was , by using the same thing but uh , so we actually found that the vad is very , like , crucial . i mean , just by changing the vad itself gives you the a lot of improvement professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: by instead of using the current vad , if you just take up the vad output from the channel zero , { comment } when instead of using channel zero and channel one , because that was the p that was the reason why i was not getting a lot of improvement for estimating { comment } the noise . so i just used the channel zero vad to estimate the noise so that it gives me some reliable mar markers for this noise estimation . professor c: what 's a channel zero vad ? phd b: um , professor c: i 'm i 'm confused about that . phd b: so , it 's like phd d: so it 's the close - talking microphone . phd b: yeah , the close - talking without professor c: oh , oh , oh , oh . phd b: so because the channel zero and channel one are like the same speech , but only w i mean , the same endpoints . professor c: phd b: but the only thing is that the speech is very noisy for channel one , so you can actually use the output of the channel zero for channel one for the vad . i mean , that 's like a cheating method . professor c: right . i mean , so a are they going to pro what are they doing to do , do we know yet ? about as far as what they 're what the rules are going to be and what we can use ? phd d: yeah , so actually i received a a new document , describing this . phd b: yeah , that 's phd d: and what they did finally is to , mmm , uh , not to align the utterances but to perform recognition , um , only on the close - talking microphone , phd b: which is the channel zero . phd d: and to take the result of the recognition to get the boundaries uh , of speech . professor c: so it 's not like that 's being done in one place or one time . phd d: and professor c: that 's that 's just a rule and we 'd you you were permitted to do that . is is that it ? phd d: uh , i think they will send , um , files but we we do n't well , apparently professor c: oh , so they will send files so everybody will have the same boundaries to work with ? phd d: yeah . yeah . phd b: but actually their alignment actually is not seems to be improving in like on all cases . professor c: ok . phd d: oh , i yeah , so what happened here is that , um , the overall improvement that they have with this method so well , to be more precise , what they have is , they have these alignments and then they drop the beginning silence and and the end silence but they keep , uh , two hundred milliseconds before speech and two hundred after speech . and they keep the speech pauses also . um , and the overall improvement over the mfcc baseline so , when they just , uh , add this frame dropping in addition it 's r uh , forty percent , right ? professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: fourteen percent , i mean . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah , which is phd d: um , which is , um , t which is the overall improvement . but in some cases it does n't improve at all . like , uh , y do you remember which case ? professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: it gives like negative well , in in like some italian and ti - digits , phd d: yeah , some @ @ . phd b: right ? phd d: right . phd b: yeah . so by using the endpointed speech , actually it 's worse than the baseline in some instances , which could be due to the word pattern . phd d: mmm . yeah . professor c: yeah , phd d: and yeah , the other thing also is that fourteen percent is less than what you obtain using a real vad . phd b: yeah , our neural net phd d: so with without cheating like this . phd b: yeah , yeah . phd d: so uh so i think this shows that there is still work uh , well , working on the vad is still still important i think . professor c: yeah , c phd d: uh phd a: can i ask just a a high level question ? can you just say like one or two sentences about wiener filtering and why why are people doing that ? phd b: hmm . phd a: what 's what 's the deal with that ? phd b: ok , so the wiener filter , it 's it 's like it 's like you try to minimize i mean , so the basic principle of wiener filter is like you try to minimize the , uh , d uh , difference between the noisy signal and the clean signal if you have two channels . like let 's say you have a clean t signal and you have an additional channel where you know what is the noisy signal . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: and then you try to minimize the error between these two . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: so that 's the basic principle . and you get you can do that i mean , if if you have only a c noisy signal , at a level which you , you w try to estimate the noise from the w assuming that the first few frames are noise or if you have a w voice activity detector , uh , you estimate the noise spectrum . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: and then you phd a: do you assume the noise is the same ? phd b: yeah . in yeah , after the speech starts . phd a: uh - huh . phd b: so but that 's not the case in , uh , many many of our cases but it works reasonably well . phd a: i see . phd b: and and then you what you do is you , uh b fff . so again , i can write down some of these eq oh , ok . yeah . and then you do this uh , this is the transfer function of the wiener filter , so `` sf `` is a clean speech spectrum , power spectrum phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: and `` n `` is the noisy power spectrum . and so this is the transfer function . professor c: right phd b: and , professor c: actually , i guess phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd b: and then you multiply your noisy power spectrum with this . you get an estimate of the clean power spectrum . phd a: i see . ok . phd b: so but the thing is that you have to estimate the sf from the noisy spectrum , what you have . so you estimate the nf from the initial noise portions and then you subtract that from the current noisy spectrum to get an estimate of the sf . so sometimes that becomes zero because you do you do n't have a true estimate of the noise . so the f filter will have like sometimes zeros in it phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: because some frequency values will be zeroed out because of that . and that creates a lot of discontinuities across the spectrum because @ @ the filter . so , uh , so that 's what that was just the first stage of wiener filtering that i tried . phd a: so is this , um , basically s uh , similar to just regular spectral subtraction ? phd b: it professor c: it 's all pretty related , phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah . it 's it 's there 's a di there 's a whole class of techniques where you try in some sense to minimize the noise . phd a: uh - huh . professor c: and it 's typically a mean square sense , uh uh uh , i in in in some way . and , uh uh , spectral subtraction is is , uh uh , one approach to it . phd a: do people use the wiener filtering in combination with the spectral subtraction typically , or is i are they sort of competing techniques ? phd b: not seen . they are very s similar techniques . phd a: yeah . o oh , ok . phd b: so it 's like i have n't seen anybody using s wiener filter with spectral subtraction . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: i see , i see . professor c: i mean , in the long run you 're doing the same thing phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . professor c: but y but there you make different approximations , and in spectral subtraction , for instance , there 's a a an estimation factor . phd a: mmm . professor c: you sometimes will figure out what the noise is and you 'll multiply that noise spectrum times some constant and subtract that rather than and sometimes people even though this really should be in the power domain , sometimes people s work in the magnitude domain because it it it works better . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and , uh , uh , you know . phd a: so why did you choose , uh , wiener filtering over some other one of these other techniques ? phd b: uh , the reason was , like , we had this choice of using spectral subtraction , wiener filtering , and there was one more thing which i which i 'm trying , is this sub space approach . so , stephane is working on spectral subtraction . phd a: oh , ok . phd b: so i picked up phd a: so you 're sort of trying @ @ them all . phd b: y yeah , phd a: ah , phd b: we just wanted to have a few noise production compensation techniques phd a: i see . oh , ok . phd b: and then pick some from that phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: pick one . professor c: i m i mean yeah , i mean , there 's car - carmen 's working on another , on the vector taylor series . phd b: va yeah , vad . w yeah . professor c: so they were just kind of trying to cover a bunch of different things with this task and see , you know , what are what are the issues for each of them . phd a: ah , ok . that makes sense . phd b: yeah . phd a: yeah . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: um . phd a: cool , thanks . phd b: so so one of one of the things that i tried , like i said , was to remove those zeros in the fri filter by doing some smoothing of the filter . professor c: yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: like , you estimate the edge of square and then you do a f smoothing across the frequency so that those zeros get , like , flattened out . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: and that does n't seems to be improving by trying it on the first time . so what i did was like i p did this and then you i plugged in the one more the same thing but with the smoothed filter the second time . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: and that seems to be working . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: so that 's where i got like fifty - six point five percent improvement on speechdat - car with that . and so the other thing what i tried was i used still the ten frames of noise estimate but i used this channel zero vad to drop the frames . so i 'm not still not estimating . and that has taken the performance to like sixty - seven percent in speechdat - car , which is which which like sort of shows that by using a proper vad you can just take it to further , better levels . and so . phd a: so that 's sort of like , you know , best - case performance ? phd b: yeah , so far i 've seen sixty - seven i mean , no , i have n't seen s like sixty - seven percent . and , uh , using the channel zero vad to estimate the noise also seems to be improving but i do n't have the results for all the cases with that . so i used channel zero vad to estimate noise as a lesser 2 x frame , which is like , everywhere i use the channel zero vad . and that seems to be the best combination , uh , rather than using a few frames to estimate and then drop a channel . professor c: so i 'm i 'm still a little confused . is that channel zero information going to be accessible during this test . phd b: nnn , no . this is just to test whether we can really improve by using a better vad . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: so , professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean so this is like the noise compensation f is fixed phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: but you make a better decision on the endpoints . that 's , like seems to be professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: so we c so i mean , which which means , like , by using this technique what we improve just the vad professor c: yes . phd b: we can just take the performance by another ten percent or better . professor c: ok . phd b: so , that that was just the , uh , reason for doing that experiment . and , w um yeah , but this all these things , i have to still try it on the ti - digits , which is like i 'm just running . and there seems to be not improving a a lot on the ti - digits , so i 'm like investigating that , why it 's not . and , um , um well after that . so , uh so the other the other thing is like i 've been i 'm doing all this stuff on the power spectrum . so tried this stuff on the mel as well mel and the magnitude , and mel magnitude , and all those things . but it seems to be the power spectrum seems to be getting the best result . so , one of one of reasons i thought like doing the averaging , after the filtering using the mel filter bank , that seems to be maybe helping rather than trying it on the mel filter ba filtered outputs . professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd b: so just th professor c: ma makes sense . phd b: yeah , th that 's that 's the only thing that i could think of why why it 's giving improvement on the mel . and , yep . so that 's it . professor c: uh , how about the subspace stuff ? phd b: subspace , { comment } i 'm i 'm like that 's still in a little bit in the back burner because i 've been p putting a lot effort on this to make it work , on tuning things and other stuff . professor c: ok . phd b: so i was like going parallely but not much of improvement . i 'm just have some skeletons ready , need some more time for it . professor c: ok . phd b: mmm . phd a: tha - that it ? phd b: yep . yep . phd a: cool . do you wan na go , stephane ? phd d: uh , yeah . so , i 've been , uh , working still on the spectral subtraction . um , so to r to remind you a little bit of of what i did before , is just to apply some spectral subtraction with an overestimation factor also to get , um , an estimate of the noise , uh , spectrum , and subtract this estimation of the noise spectrum from the , uh , signal spectrum , { comment } but subtracting more when the snr is is , uh , low , which is a technique that it 's often used . phd a: `` subtracting more `` , meaning ? phd d: so you overestimate the noise spectrum . you multiply the noise spectrum by a factor , uh , which depends on the snr . phd a: oh , ok . i see . phd d: so , above twenty db , it 's one , so you just subtract the noise . phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: and then it 's b generally well , i use , actually , a linear , uh , function of the snr , phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: which is bounded to , like , two or three , { comment } when the snr is below zero db . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: um , doing just this , uh , either on the fft bins or on the mel bands , um , t does n't yield any improvement professor c: oh ! um , uh , what are you doing with negative , uh , powers ? phd d: o yeah . so there is also a threshold , of course , because after subtraction you can have negative energies , phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: and so what i i just do is to put , uh to to add to put the threshold first and then to add a small amount of noise , which right now is speech - shaped . um phd a: speech - shaped ? phd d: yeah , so it 's a it has the overall overall energy , uh pow it has the overall power spectrum of speech . so with a bump around one kilohertz . phd a: so when y when you talk about there being something less than zero after subtracting the noise , is that at a particular frequency bin ? phd d: i uh - huh . yeah . phd a: ok . phd d: there can be frequency bins with negative values . phd a: and so when you say you 're adding something that has the overall shape of speech , is that in a in a particular frequency bin ? or you 're adding something across all the frequencies when you get these negatives ? phd d: for each frequencies i a i 'm adding some , uh , noise , but the a the amount of the amount of noise i add is not the same for all the frequency bins . phd a: ah ! ok . i gotcha . right . phd d: uh . right now i do n't think if it makes sense to add something that 's speech - shaped , because then you have silence portion that have some spectra similar to the sp the overall speech spectra . phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: but yeah . so this is something i can still work on , phd a: so what does that mean ? phd d: but hmm . phd a: i 'm trying to understand what it means when you do the spectral subtraction and you get a negative . it means that at that particular frequency range you subtracted more energy than there was actually phd d: that means that mm - hmm . yeah . so so yeah , you have an an estimation of the noise spectrum , but sometimes , of course , it 's as the noise is not perfectly stationary , sometimes this estimation can be , uh , too small , so you do n't subtract enough . but sometimes it can be too large also . if if the noise , uh , energy in this particular frequency band drops for some reason . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: mmm . phd a: so in in an ideal word i world { comment } if the noise were always the same , then , when you subtracted it the worst that i you would get would be a zero . i mean , the lowest you would get would be a zero , cuz i if there was no other energy there you 're just subtracting exactly the noise . professor c: right . phd d: mm - hmm , professor c: yep , there 's all there 's all sorts of , uh , deviations from the ideal here . phd d: yeah . professor c: i mean , for instance , you 're you 're talking about the signal and noise , um , at a particular point . and even if something is sort of stationary in ster terms of statistics , there 's no guarantee that any particular instantiation or piece of it is exactly a particular number or bounded by a particular range . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so , you 're figuring out from some chunk of of of the signal what you think the noise is . then you 're subtracting that from another chunk , phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and there 's absolutely no reason to think that you 'd know that it would n't , uh , be negative in some places . phd d: mm - hmm . hmm . professor c: uh , on the other hand that just means that in some sense you 've made a mistake because you certainly have stra subtracted a bigger number than is due to the noise . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: um also , we speak the whole where all this stuff comes from is from an assumption that signal and noise are uncorrelated . and that certainly makes sense in s in in a statistical interpretation , that , you know , over , um , all possible realizations that they 're uncorrelated phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: or assuming , uh , ergodicity that i that i um , across time , uh , it 's uncorrelated . but if you just look at a quarter second , uh , and you cross - multiply the two things , uh , you could very well , uh , end up with something that sums to something that 's not zero . so in fact , the two signals could have some relation to one another . and so there 's all sorts of deviations from ideal in this . and and given all that , you could definitely end up with something that 's negative . but if down the road you 're making use of something as if it is a power spectrum , um , then it can be bad to have something negative . now , the other thing i wonder about actually is , what if you left it negative ? what happens ? phd b: is that the log ? professor c: i mean , because um , are you taking the log before you add them up to the mel ? phd b: after that . no , after . professor c: right . so the thing is , i wonder how if you put your thresholds after that , i wonder how often you would end up with , uh with negative values . phd b: but you will but you end up reducing some neighboring frequency bins @ @ in the average , right ? when you add the negative to the positive value which is the true estimate . professor c: yeah . but nonetheless , uh , you know , these are it 's another f kind of smoothing , right ? that you 're doing . phd b: yeah . professor c: right . so , you 've done your best shot at figuring out what the noise should be , and now i then you 've subtracted it off . and then after that , instead of instead of , uh , uh , leaving it as is and adding things adding up some neighbors , you artificially push it up . phd b: hmm . professor c: which is , you know , it 's there 's no particular reason that that 's the right thing to do either , right ? phd b: yeah , yeah . professor c: so , um , uh , i in fact , what you 'd be doing is saying , `` well , we 're d we 're we 're going to definitely diminish the effect of this frequency in this little frequency bin in the in the overall mel summation `` . it 's just a thought . i d i do n't know if it would be phd a: sort of the opposite of that would be if if you find out you 're going to get a negative number , you do n't do the subtraction for that bin . phd b: yeah . uh - huh . that is true . professor c: nnn , yeah , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: although phd a: that would be almost the opposite , right ? instead of leaving it negative , you do n't do it . if your if your subtraction 's going to result in a negative number , you you do n't do subtraction in that . professor c: yeah , but that means that in a situation where you thought that that the bin was almost entirely noise , you left it . phd a: yeah . yeah , i 'm just saying that 's like the opposite . phd b: we just professor c: uh . phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd a: yeah . professor c: well , yeah that 's that 's the opposite , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah . phd d: and , yeah , some people also if it 's a negative value they , uh , re - compute it using inter interpolation from the edges and bins . phd b: for frames , frequency bins . professor c: yeah . phd d: well , there are different things that you can do . phd a: oh . professor c: people can also , uh , reflect it back up and essentially do a full wave rectification instead of a instead of half wave . phd a: oh . professor c: but it was just a thought that that it might be something to try . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . yep . well , actually i tried , something else based on this , um , is to to put some smoothing , um , because it seems to to help or it seems to help the wiener filtering professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and , mmm so what i did is , uh , some kind of nonlinear smoothing . actually i have a recursion that computes yeah , let me go back a little bit . actually , when you do spectral subtraction you can , uh , find this this equivalent in the s in the spectral domain . you can uh compute , y you can say that d your spectral subtraction is a filter , um , and the gain of this filter is the , um , signal energy minus what you subtract , divided by the signal energy . and this is a gain that varies over time , and , you know , of course , uh , depending on the s on the noise spectrum and on the speech spectrum . and what happen actually is that during low snr values , the gain is close to zero but it varies a lot . mmm , and this this is the cause of musical noise and all these the { comment } the fact you we go below zero one frame and then you can have an energy that 's above zero . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and mmm . so the smoothing is i did a smoothing actually on this gain , uh , trajectory . but it 's the smoothing is nonlinear in the sense that i tried to not smooth if the gain is high , because in this case we know that , uh , the estimate of the gain is correct because we we are not close to to to zero , um , and to do more smoothing if the gain is low . mmm . um . yeah . so , well , basically that 's this idea , and it seems to give pretty good results , uh , although i 've just just tested on italian and finnish . and on italian it seems my result seems to be a little bit better than the wiener filtering , phd b: mm - hmm . yeah , the one you showed yesterday . phd d: right ? phd b: right ? professor c: yeah . phd d: uh , i do n't know if you have these improvement the detailed improvements for italian , finnish , and spanish there phd b: fff . no , i do n't have , for each , phd d: or you have just have your own . phd b: i i just just have the final number here . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so these numbers he was giving before with the four point three , and the ten point one , and so forth , those were italian , right ? phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah . so so , no , professor c: yeah . phd d: uh phd b: i actually did n't give you the number which is the final one , phd d: uh , no , we 've phd b: which is , after two stages of wiener filtering . i mean , that was i just well , like the overall improvement is like fifty - six point five . so , professor c: right . phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean , his number is still better than what i got in the two stages of wiener filtering . phd d: yeah . professor c: right . phd d: on italian . but on finnish it 's a little bit worse , apparently . phd b: mm - hmm . phd d: um professor c: but do you have numbers in terms of word error rates on on italian ? so just so you have some sense of reference ? phd d: yeah . uh , so , it 's , uh , three point , uh , eight . professor c: uh - huh . phd d: am i right ? phd b: oh , ok . yeah , right , ok . phd d: and then , uh , d uh , nine point , uh , one . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and finally , uh , sixteen point five . professor c: and this is , um , spectral subtraction plus what ? phd d: plus plus nonlinear smoothing . well , it 's the system it 's exactly the sys the same system as sunil tried , professor c: on - line normalization and lda ? phd d: but professor c: yeah . yeah . phd d: yeah . but instead of double stage wiener filtering , it 's it 's this smoothed spectral subtraction . um , yeah . phd a: what is it the , um , france telecom system uses professor c: right . phd a: for do they use spectral subtraction , or wiener filtering , or ? phd b: they use spectral subtraction , right . phd d: for what ? phd b: french telecom . phd d: it it 's wiener filtering , phd b: oh , it 's it 's wiener filtering . phd d: am i right ? phd a: oh . phd b: sorry . phd d: well , it 's some kind of wiener filtering phd b: yeah , filtering . yeah , it 's not exactly wiener filtering but some variant of wiener filtering . phd d: yeah . phd a: i see . phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah , plus , uh , i guess they have some sort of cepstral normalization , as well . phd b: s they have like yeah , th the just noise compensation technique is a variant of wiener filtering , phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: plus they do some some smoothing techniques on the final filter . the th they actually do the filtering in the time domain . phd a: mmm . phd d: yeah . phd a: hmm . phd b: so they would take this hf squared back , taking inverse fourier transform . and they convolve the time domain signal with that . phd a: oh , i see . phd b: and they do some smoothing on that final filter , impulse response . phd a: hmm . phd d: but they also have two two different smoothing @ @ . phd b: i mean , i 'm i 'm @ @ . phd d: one in the time domain and one in the frequency domain by just taking the first , um , coefficients of the impulse response . phd b: but . phd d: so , basically it 's similar . i mean , what you did , it 's similar phd b: it 's similar in the smoothing and phd d: because you have also two two kind of smoothing . phd b: yeah . phd d: one in the time domain , and one in the frequency domain , phd b: yeah . the frequency domain . phd d: yeah . phd a: does the smoothing in the time domain help phd d: um phd a: well , do you get this musical noise stuff with wiener filtering or is that only with , uh , spectral subtraction ? phd b: no , you get it with wiener filtering also . phd d: yeah . phd a: does the smoothing in the time domain help with that ? or some other smoothing ? phd b: oh , no , you still end up with zeros in the s spectrum . sometimes . phd d: yeah . phd a: hmm . professor c: i mean , it 's not clear that these musical noises hurt us in recognition . phd a: hmm . professor c: we do n't know if they do . phd b: yeah . professor c: i mean , they they sound bad . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah , i know . professor c: but we 're not listening to it , usually . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: hmm . phd d: uh , actually the the smoothing that i did do here reduced the musical noise . well , it phd b: mm - hmm . yeah , yeah , phd d: mmm . phd b: the phd d: well , i can not you can not hear beca well , actually what i d did not say is that this is not in the fft bins . this is in the mel frequency bands . um so , it could be seen as a f a a smoothing in the frequency domain because i used , in ad mel bands in addition and then the other phase of smoothing in the time domain . mmm . but , when you look at the spectrogram , if you do n't have an any smoothing , you clearly see , like in silence portions , and at the beginning and end of speech , you see spots of high energy randomly distributed over the the spectrogram . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: um phd a: that 's the musical noise ? phd d: which is musical noise , phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah , if if it if you listen to it uh , if you do this in the fft bins , then you have spots of energy randomly distributing . and if you f if you re - synthesize these spot sounds as , like , sounds , phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: uh professor c: well , none of these systems , by the way , have i mean , y you both are are working with , um , our system that does not have the neural net , phd d: and phd b: yep . professor c: right ? phd b: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: ok . so one would hope , presumably , that the neural net part of it would would improve things further as as they did before . phd d: yeah . yeah . um yeah , although if if we , um , look at the result from the proposals , { comment } one of the reason , uh , the n system with the neural net was , um , more than well , around five percent better , is that it was much better on highly mismatched condition . i 'm thinking , for instance , on the ti - digits trained on clean speech and tested on noisy speech . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: uh , for this case , the system with the neural net was much better . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: but not much on the in the other cases . professor c: yeah . phd d: and if we have no , uh , spectral subtraction or wiener filtering , um , i the system is uh , we thought the neural neural network is much better than before , even in these cases of high mismatch . so , maybe the neural net will help less but , um professor c: maybe . phd a: could you train a neural net to do spectral subtraction ? professor c: yeah , it could do a nonlinear spectral subtraction phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: but i do n't know if it i mean , you have to figure out what your targets are . phd a: yeah , i was thinking if you had a clean version of the signal and and a noisy version , and your targets were the m f - uh , you know , whatever , frequency bins phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: right . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah , well , that 's not so much spectral subtraction then , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: but but but it 's but at any rate , yeah , people , uh phd a: people do that ? professor c: y yeah , in fact , we had visitors here who did that i think when you were here ba way back when . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: hmm . professor c: uh , people d done lots of experimentation over the years with training neural nets . and it 's not a bad thing to do . it 's another approach . phd a: hmm . professor c: m i mean , it 's it , um phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: the objection everyone always raises , which has some truth to it is that , um , it 's good for mapping from a particular noise to clean but then you get a different noise . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and the experiments we saw that visitors did here showed that it there was at least some , um , { comment } gentleness to the degradation when you switched to different noises . it did seem to help . so that you 're right , that 's another another way to go . phd a: how did it compare on i mean , for for good cases where it it uh , stuff that it was trained on ? did it do pretty well ? professor c: oh , yeah , it did very well . phd a: mmm . professor c: yeah . phd a: mmm . professor c: um , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: but to some extent that 's kind of what we 're doing . i mean , we 're not doing exactly that , we 're not trying to generate good examples but by trying to do the best classifier you possibly can , for these little phonetic categories , phd a: mm - hmm . you could say it 's sort of built in . professor c: it 's yeah , it 's kind of built into that . phd a: hmm . professor c: and and that 's why we have found that it it does help . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: um so , um , yeah , i mean , we 'll just have to try it . but i i would i would i would imagine that it will help some . i mean , it we 'll just have to see whether it helps more or less the same , but i would imagine it would help some . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so in any event , all of this i was just confirming that all of this was with a simpler system . phd d: yeah , professor c: ok ? phd d: yeah . um , yeah , so this is th the , um well , actually , this was kind of the first try with this spectral subtraction plus smoothing , professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and i was kind of excited by the result . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: um , then i started to optimize the different parameters . and , uh , the first thing i tried to optimize is the , um , time constant of the smoothing . and it seems that the one that i chose for the first experiment was the optimal one , so uh , professor c: it 's amazing how often that happens . phd d: um , so this is the first thing . um yeah , another thing that i it 's important to mention is , um , that this has a this has some additional latency . um . because when i do the smoothing , uh , it 's a recursion that estimated the means , so of the g of the gain curve . and this is a filter that has some latency . and i noticed that it 's better if we take into account this latency . so , instead o of using the current estimated mean to , uh , subtract the current frame , it 's better to use an estimate that 's some somewhere in the future . um phd a: and that 's what causes the latency ? ok . phd b: you mean , the m the mean is computed o based on some frames in the future also ? professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . phd b: or or no ? phd d: it 's the recursion , so it 's it 's the center recursion , right ? phd b: mm - hmm . phd d: um and the latency of this recursion is around fifty milliseconds . professor c: one five ? phd d: professor c: one five ? five zero ? phd d: five zero , professor c: five zero . phd d: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd d: um , phd b: i 'm sorry , phd d: mmm . phd b: why why is that delay coming ? like , you estimate the mean ? phd d: yeah , the mean estimation has some delay , right ? phd b: oh , yeah . phd d: i mean , the the filter that that estimates the mean has a time constant . phd b: it is n't ok , so it 's like it looks into the future also . ok . phd d: yeah . professor c: what if you just look into the past ? phd d: it 's , uh , not as good . it 's not bad . professor c: how m by how much ? phd d: um , it helps a lot over the ba the baseline but , mmm professor c: by how much ? phd d: it it 's around three percent , um , relative . professor c: worse . phd d: yeah . yeah . um , professor c: hmm . phd d: mmm so , uh professor c: it 's depending on how all this stuff comes out we may or may not be able to add any latency . phd d: yeah , but yeah . so , yeah , it depends . uh , y actually , it 's it 's l it 's three percent . right . mmm . yeah , b but i do n't think we have to worry too much on that right now while you kno . mm - hmm . professor c: um , s yeah , i mean , i think the only thing is that phd d: so professor c: i would worry about it a little . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: because if we completely ignore latency , and then we discover that we really have to do something about it , we 're going to be find ourselves in a bind . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so , um , you know , maybe you could make it twenty - five . you know what i mean ? phd d: yeah . professor c: yeah , just , you know , just be be a little conservative phd d: oh yes . professor c: because we may end up with this crunch where all of a sudden we have to cut the latency in half or something . phd d: s mm - hmm . yeah . professor c: ok . phd d: um . so , yeah , there are other things in the , um , algorithm that i did n't , uh , @ @ a lot yet , phd a: oh ! phd d: which phd a: sorry . a quick question just about the latency thing . if if there 's another part of the system that causes a latency of a hundred milliseconds , is this an additive thing ? or c or is yours hidden in that ? phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: uh phd d: no , it 's it 's added . phd a: it 's additive . ok . phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: we can ok . we can do something in parallel also , in some like some cases like , if you wanted to do voice activity detection . phd a: uh - huh . phd b: and we can do that in parallel with some other filtering you can do . phd d: mmm . phd b: so you can make a decision on that voice activity detection and then you decide whether you want to filter or not . phd d: yeah . phd b: but by then you already have the sufficient samples to do the filtering . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: so so , sometimes you can do it anyway . phd a: i mean , could n't , uh i could n't you just also i mean , i if you know that the l the largest latency in the system is two hundred milliseconds , do n't you could n't you just buffer up that number of frames and then everything uses that buffer ? phd b: yeah . phd a: and that way it 's not additive ? professor c: well , in fact , everything is sent over in buffers cuz of is n't it the tcp buffer some ? phd b: you mean , the the data , the super frame or something ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah , yeah . phd d: yeah . phd b: yeah , but that has a variable latency because the last frame does n't have any latency phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: and first frame has a twenty framed latency . so you ca n't r rely on that latency all the time . professor c: yeah . phd b: because i mean the transmission over over the air interface is like a buffer . phd d: yeah . phd b: twenty frame phd a: yeah . phd b: twenty four frames . phd a: yeah . phd b: so but the only thing is that the first frame in that twenty - four frame buffer has a twenty - four frame latency . and the last frame does n't have any latency . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: because it just goes as phd a: yeah , i was n't thinking of that one in particular phd b: yeah . phd a: but more of , you know , if if there is some part of your system that has to buffer twenty frames , uh , ca n't the other parts of the system draw out of that buffer and therefore not add to the latency ? professor c: yeah . yeah . and and that 's sort of one of the all of that sort of stuff is things that they 're debating in their standards committee . phd a: oh ! hmm . phd d: mm - hmm . yeah . so , um , there is uh , { comment } these parameters that i still have to to look at . like , i played a little bit with this overestimation factor , uh , but i still have to to look more at this , um , at the level of noise i add after . uh , i know that adding noise helped , um , the system just using spectral subtraction without smoothing , but i do n't know right now if it 's still important or not , and if the level i choose before is still the right one . same thing for the shape of the the noise . maybe it would be better to add just white noise instead of speech shaped noise . professor c: that 'd be more like the jrasta thing in a sense . yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . um , yep . uh , and another thing is to yeah , for this i just use as noise estimate the mean , uh , spectrum of the first twenty frames of each utterance . i do n't remember for this experiment what did you use for these two stage phd b: i used ten just ten frames . yeah , because phd d: the ten frames ? phd b: i mean , the reason was like in ti - digits i do n't have a lot . i had twenty frames most of the time . phd d: mm - hmm . um . but , so what 's this result you told me about , the fact that if you use more than ten frames you can improve by t phd b: well , that 's that 's using the channel zero . if i use a channel zero vad to estimate the noise . phd d: oh , ok . phd b: which phd d: but this is ten frames plus plus phd b: channel zero dropping . phd d: channel phd b: hmm . phd d: uh , no , these results with two stage wiener filtering is ten frames phd b: t oh , this phd d: but possibly more . i mean , if channel one vad gives you phd b: f yeah . mm - hmm . yeah . phd d: yeah . ok . yeah , but in this experiment i did i did n't use any vad . i just used the twenty first frame to estimate the noise . and so i expected it to be a little bit better , if , uh , i use more more frames . um . ok , that 's it for spectral subtraction . the second thing i was working on is to , um , try to look at noise estimation , { comment } mmm , and using some technique that does n't need voice activity detection . um , and for this i u simply used some code that , uh , i had from from belgium , which is technique that , um , takes a bunch of frame , um , and for each frequency bands of this frame , takes a look at the minima of the energy . and then average these minima and take this as an an energy estimate of the noise for this particular frequency band . and there is something more to this actually . what is done is that , uh , these minima are computed , um , based on , um , high resolution spectra . so , i compute an fft based on the long , uh , signal frame which is sixty - four millisecond phd a: so you have one minimum for each frequency ? phd d: what what i what i d uh , i do actually , is to take a bunch of to take a tile on the spectrogram and this tile is five hundred milliseconds long and two hundred hertz wide . phd a: mmm . phd d: and this tile uh , in this tile appears , like , the harmonics if you have a voiced sound , because it 's it 's the ftt bins . and when you take the m the minima of of these this tile , when you do n't have speech , these minima will give you some noise level estimate , if you have voiced speech , these minima will still give you some noise estimate because the minima are between the harmonics . and if you have other other kind of speech sounds then it 's not the case , but if the time frame is long enough , uh , like s five hundred milliseconds seems to be long enough , { comment } you still have portions which , uh , are very close whi which minima are very close to the noise energy . professor c: i 'm confused . you said five hundred milliseconds phd d: mmm ? professor c: but you said sixty - four milliseconds . which is which ? what ? phd d: sixty - four milliseconds is to compute the fft , uh , bins . professor c: yeah , phd d: the the fft . professor c: yeah . phd d: um , actually it 's better to use sixty - four milliseconds because , um , if you use thirty milliseconds , then , uh , because of the this short windowing and at low pitch , uh , sounds , the harmonics are not , wha uh , correctly separated . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: so if you take these minima , it b they will overestimate the noise a lot . professor c: so you take sixty - four millisecond f f ts and then you average them { comment } over five hundred ? or ? uh , what do you do over five hundred ? phd d: so i take to i take a bunch of these sixty - four millisecond frame to cover five hundred milliseconds , professor c: ah . ok . phd d: and then i look for the minima , phd a: mmm . professor c: i see . phd d: on the on on the bunch of uh fifty frames , right ? professor c: i see . phd d: mmm . so the interest of this is that , as y with this technique you can estimate u some reasonable noise spectra with only five hundred milliseconds of of signal , so if the the n the noise varies a lot , uh , you can track better track the noise , professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: which is not the case if you rely on the voice activity detector . so even if there are no no speech pauses , you can track the noise level . the only requirement is that you must have , in these five hundred milliseconds segment , { comment } you must have voiced sound at least . cuz this these will help you to to track the the noise level . um . so what i did is just to simply replace the vad - based , uh , noise estimate by this estimate , first on speechdat - car well , only on speechdat - car actually . and it 's , uh , slightly worse , like one percent relative compared to the vad - based estimates . um , i think the reason why it 's not better , is that the speechdat - car noises are all stationary . um . so , u y y there really is no need to have something that 's adaptive professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and uh , well , they are mainly stationary . um . but , i expect s maybe some improvement on ti - digits because , nnn , in this case the noises are all sometimes very variable . uh , so i have to test it . mmm . professor c: but are you comparing with something e i 'm i 'm p s a little confused again , i it uh , when you compare it with the v a d - based , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: vad - is this is this the ? phd d: it 's it 's the france - telecom - based spectra , s uh , wiener filtering and vad . so it 's their system but just i replace their noise estimate by this one . professor c: oh , you 're not doing this with our system ? phd d: in i i 'm not no , no . yeah , it 's our system but with just the wiener filtering from their system . right ? mmm . professor c: ok . phd d: yeah . actually , th the best system that we still have is , uh , our system but with their noise compensation scheme , right ? professor c: right . but phd d: so i 'm trying to improve on this , and by by replacing their noise estimate by , uh , something that might be better . professor c: ok . but the spectral subtraction scheme that you reported on also re requires a a noise estimate . phd d: yeah . yeah . professor c: could n't you try this for that ? phd d: but i di professor c: do you think it might help ? phd d: not yet , because i did this in parallel , professor c: i see , phd d: and i was working on one and the other . professor c: i see . yeah . phd d: um , phd b: yeah . phd d: yeah , for for sure i will . i can try also , mmm , the spectral subtraction . phd b: so i 'm also using that n new noise estimate technique on this wiener filtering what i 'm trying . professor c: ok . phd b: so i i have , like , some experiments running , i do n't have the results . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah . phd b: so . professor c: yeah . phd b: i do n't estimate the f noise on the ten frames but use his estimate . professor c: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . um . yeah . i , um , also implemented a sp um spectral whitening idea which is in the , um , ericsson proposal . uh , the idea is just to um , flatten the log , uh , spectrum , um , and to flatten it more if the the probability of silence is higher . so in this way , you can also reduce somewhat reduce the musical noise and you reduce the variability if you have different noise shapes , because the the spectrum becomes more flat in the silence portions . um . yeah . with this , no improvement , uh , but there are a lot of parameters that we can play with and , um actually , this this could be seen as a soft version of the frame dropping because , um , you could just put the threshold and say that `` below the threshold , i will flatten comp completely flatten the the spectrum `` . and above this threshold , uh , keep the same spectrum . so it would be like frame dropping , because during the silence portions which are below the threshold of voice activity probability , { comment } uh , w you would have some kind of dummy frame which is a perfectly flat spectrum . and this , uh , whitening is something that 's more soft because , um , you whiten you just , uh , have a function the whitening is a function of the speech probability , so it 's not a hard decision . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: um , so i think maybe it can be used together with frame dropping and when we are not sure about if it 's speech or silence , well , maybe it has something do with this . professor c: it 's interesting . i mean , um , you know , in in jrasta we were essentially adding in , uh , white uh , white noise dependent on our estimate of the noise . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: on the overall estimate of the noise . uh , i think it never occurred to us to use a probability in there . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: you could imagine one that that that made use of where where the amount that you added in was , uh , a function of the probability of it being s speech or noise . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . yeah , w yeah , right now it 's a constant that just depending on the the noise spectrum . phd b: there 's professor c: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: cuz that that brings in sort of powers of classifiers that we do n't really have in , uh , this other estimate . so it could be it could be interesting . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: what what what point does the , uh , system stop recording ? how much phd a: it 'll keep going till i guess when they run out of disk space , professor c: it went a little long ? i mean , disk phd a: but i think we 're ok . phd d: so . professor c: ok . phd d: yeah . uh yeah , so there are with this technique there are some i just did something exactly the same as as the ericsson proposal but , um , the probability of speech is not computed the same way . and i think , i for yeah , for a lot of things , actually a g a good speech probability is important . like for frame dropping you improve , like you can improve from ten percent as sunil showed , if you use the channel zero speech probabilities . professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: for this it might help , um professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: s so , yeah . uh , so yeah , the next thing i started to do is to , uh , try to develop a better voice activity detector . and , um i d um yeah , for this i think we can maybe try to train the neural network for voice activity detection on all the data that we have , including all the speechdat - car data . um and so i 'm starting to obtain alignments on these databases . um , and the way i mi i do that is that i just use the htk system but i train it only on the close - talking microphone . and then i aligned i obtained the viterbi alignment of the training utterances . um it seems to be , uh i actually what i observed is that for italian it does n't seem th - there seems to be a problem . phd b: no . so , it does n't seems to help by their use of channel zero or channel one . phd d: well . because what ? phd b: uh , you mean their d the frame dropping , right ? yeah , it does n't phd d: yeah . yeah . so , u but actually the vad was trained on italian also , phd b: italian . phd d: so um , the c the current vad that we have was trained on , uh , t spine , right ? phd b: ti - digits . phd d: italian , and ti - digits with noise and phd b: phd d: uh , yeah . and it seems to work on italian but not on the finnish and spanish data . so , maybe one reason is that s s finnish and spanish noise are different . and actually we observed we listened to some of the utterances and sometimes for finnish there is music in the recordings and strange things , right ? phd b: yeah . phd d: um yeah , so the idea was to train all the databases and obtain an alignment to train on these databases , and , um , also to , um , try different kind of features , uh , as input to the vad network . and we came up with a bunch of features that we want to try like , um , the spectral slope , the , um , the degree o degree of voicing with the features that , uh , we started to develop with carmen , um , e with , uh , the correlation between bands and different kind of features , phd b: yeah . mm - hmm . phd d: and yeah . phd b: the energy also . phd d: the energy . phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah , right . phd d: yeah . of course . yeah . professor c: ok . well , hans - guenter will be here next week so i think he 'll be interested in all all of these things . and , so . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: mmm . phd a: ok , shall we , uh , do digits ? professor c: yeah . phd a: want to go ahead , morgan ? professor c: sure . phd a: ok .

the log magnitude spectral subtraction used twelve seconds from the past and future to calculate the mean . the short window did not have a big effect on the model performance , which was much desired . the silence , for the most part , had been cut out to make the model more effective . the professor added that the system was similar to caching utterances .

what was the professor 's take on the 12 second mean ? </s> phd a: ok , we 're going . phd d: damn . professor c: and uh hans - uh , hans - guenter will be here , um , i think by next next tuesday or so . phd b: oh , ok . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so he 's he 's going to be here for about three weeks , phd b: oh ! that 's nice . phd a: just for a visit ? professor c: and , uh uh , we 'll see . phd a: huh . professor c: we might might end up with some longer collaboration or something . phd a: cool . professor c: so he 's gon na look in on everything we 're doing phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: and give us his his thoughts . and so it 'll be another another good person looking at things . phd b: oh . hmm . grad e: th - that 's his spectral subtraction group ? professor c: yeah , grad e: is that right ? professor c: yeah . grad e: oh , ok . so i guess i should probably talk to him a bit too ? professor c: oh , yeah . yeah . yeah . no , he 'll be around for three weeks . he 's , uh , um , very , very , easygoing , easy to talk to , and , uh , very interested in everything . phd a: really nice guy . professor c: yeah , yeah . phd b: yeah , we met him in amsterdam . professor c: yeah , yeah , he 's been here before . phd b: oh , ok . professor c: i mean , he 's he 's he 's he 's phd a: wh - back when i was a grad student he was here for a , uh , uh a year or { comment } n six months . phd b: i have n't noticed him . professor c: n nine months . phd a: something like that . professor c: something like that . phd a: yeah . professor c: yeah . yeah . he 's he 's done a couple stays here . phd b: hmm . professor c: yeah . phd a: so , um , { comment } i guess we got lots to catch up on . and we have n't met for a couple of weeks . we did n't meet last week , morgan . um , i went around and talked to everybody , and it seemed like they they had some new results but rather than them coming up and telling me i figured we should just wait a week and they can tell both you know , all of us . so , um , why do n't we why do n't we start with you , dave , and then , um , we can go on . grad e: oh , ok . phd a: so . grad e: so , um , since we 're looking at putting this , um mean log m magnitude spectral subtraction , um , into the smartkom system , i i did a test seeing if , um , it would work using past only { comment } and plus the present to calculate the mean . so , i did a test , um , where i used twelve seconds from the past and the present frame to , um , calculate the mean . and phd a: twelve seconds twelve twelve seconds back from the current frame , is that what you mean ? grad e: uh twelve seconds , um , counting back from the end of the current frame , phd a: ok , ok . grad e: yeah . so it was , um , twen i think it was twenty - one frames and that worked out to about twelve seconds . phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: and compared to , um , do using a twelve second centered window , i think there was a drop in performance but it was just a slight drop . phd a: hmm ! professor c: mm - hmm . grad e: is is that right ? professor c: um , yeah , i mean , it was pretty it was pretty tiny . yeah . grad e: uh - huh . so that was encouraging . and , um , that that um , that 's encouraging for for the idea of using it in an interactive system like and , um , another issue i 'm i 'm thinking about is in the smartkom system . so say twe twelve seconds in the earlier test seemed like a good length of time , but what happens if you have less than twelve seconds ? and , um so i w bef before , um back in may , i did some experiments using , say , two seconds , or four seconds , or six seconds . in those i trained the models using mean subtraction with the means calculated over two seconds , or four seconds , or six seconds . and , um , here , i was curious , what if i trained the models using twelve seconds but i f i gave it a situation where the test set i was subtracted using two seconds , or four seconds , or six seconds . and , um so i did that for about three different conditions . and , um i mean , i th i think it was , um , four se i think i think it was , um , something like four seconds and , um , six seconds , and eight seconds . something like that . and it seems like it it it hurts compared to if you actually train the models { comment } using th that same length of time but it it does n't hurt that much . um , u usually less than point five percent , although i think i did see one where it was a point eight percent or so rise in word error rate . but this is , um , w where , um , even if i train on the , uh , model , and mean subtracted it with the same length of time as in the test , it the word error rate is around , um , ten percent or nine percent . so it does n't seem like that big a d a difference . professor c: but it but looking at it the other way , is n't it what you 're saying that it did n't help you to have the longer time for training , if you were going to have a short time for grad e: that that 's true . um , professor c: i mean , why would you do it , if you knew that you were going to have short windows in testing . grad e: wa phd a: yeah , it seems like for your i mean , in normal situations you would never get twelve seconds of speech , right ? i 'm not e u phd b: you need twelve seconds in the past to estimate , right ? or l or you 're looking at six sec seconds in future and six in professor c: yeah . grad e: um , t twelve s professor c: no , total . grad e: n n uh for the test it 's just twelve seconds in the past . phd b: no , it 's all oh , ok . phd a: is this twelve seconds of uh , regardless of speech or silence ? or twelve seconds of speech ? grad e: of of speech . phd a: ok . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: the other thing , um , which maybe relates a little bit to something else we 've talked about in terms of windowing and so on is , that , um , i wonder if you trained with twelve seconds , and then when you were two seconds in you used two seconds , and when you were four seconds in , you used four seconds , and when you were six and you basically build up to the twelve seconds . so that if you have very long utterances you have the best , grad e: yeah . professor c: but if you have shorter utterances you use what you can . grad e: right . and that 's actually what we 're planning to do in professor c: ok . yeah . grad e: but s so i g so i guess the que the question i was trying to get at with those experiments is , `` does it matter what models you use ? does it matter how much time y you use to calculate the mean when you were , um , tra doing the training data ? `` professor c: right . but i mean the other thing is that that 's i mean , the other way of looking at this , going back to , uh , mean cepstral subtraction versus rasta kind of things , is that you could look at mean cepstral subtraction , especially the way you 're doing it , uh , as being a kind of filter . and so , the other thing is just to design a filter . you know , basically you 're you 're you 're doing a high - pass filter or a band - pass filter of some sort and and just design a filter . and then , you know , a filter will have a certain behavior and you loo can look at the start up behavior when you start up with nothing . grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: and and , you know , it will , uh , if you have an iir filter for instance , it will , um , uh , not behave in the steady - state way that you would like it to behave until you get a long enough period , but , um , uh , by just constraining yourself to have your filter be only a subtraction of the mean , you 're kind of , you know , tying your hands behind your back because there 's filters have all sorts of be temporal and spectral behaviors . grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: and the only thing , you know , consistent that we know about is that you want to get rid of the very low frequency component . grad e: hmm . phd b: but do you really want to calculate the mean ? and you neglect all the silence regions { comment } or you just use everything that 's twelve seconds , and grad e: um , you do you mean in my tests so far ? phd b: ye - yeah . grad e: most of the silence has been cut out . phd b: ok . grad e: just there 's just inter - word silences . phd b: mm - hmm . and they are , like , pretty short . shor grad e: pretty short . phd b: yeah , ok . grad e: yeah . phd b: yeah . mm - hmm . so you really need a lot of speech to estimate the mean of it . grad e: well , if i only use six seconds , it still works pretty well . phd b: yeah . yeah . uh - huh . grad e: i saw in my test before . i was trying twelve seconds cuz that was the best in my test before phd b: ok . grad e: and that increasing past twelve seconds did n't seem to help . phd b: hmm . huh . grad e: th um , yeah , i guess it 's something i need to play with more to decide how to set that up for the smartkom system . like , may maybe if i trained on six seconds it would work better when i only had two seconds or four seconds , and professor c: yeah . yeah . and , um grad e: ok . professor c: yeah , and again , if you take this filtering perspective and if you essentially have it build up over time . i mean , if you computed means over two and then over four , and over six , essentially what you 're getting at is a kind of , uh , ramp up of a filter anyway . and so you may may just want to think of it as a filter . but , uh , if you do that , then , um , in practice somebody using the smartkom system , one would think { comment } if they 're using it for a while , it means that their first utterance , instead of , you know , getting , uh , a forty percent error rate reduction , they 'll get a uh , over what , uh , you 'd get without this , uh , um , policy , uh , you get thirty percent . and then the second utterance that you give , they get the full you know , uh , full benefit of it if it 's this ongoing thing . phd a: oh , so you you cache the utterances ? that 's how you get your , uh professor c: well , i 'm saying in practice , yeah , grad e: m phd a: ah . ok . professor c: that 's if somebody 's using a system to ask for directions or something , phd a: ok . professor c: you know , they 'll say something first . and and to begin with if it does n't get them quite right , ma m maybe they 'll come back and say , `` excuse me ? `` phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: uh , or some i mean it should have some policy like that anyway . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and and , uh , uh , in any event they might ask a second question . and it 's not like what he 's doing does n't , uh , improve things . it does improve things , just not as much as he would like . and so , uh , there 's a higher probability of it making an error , uh , in the first utterance . phd a: what would be really cool is if you could have uh , this probably users would never like this but if you had could have a system where , before they began to use it they had to introduce themselves , verbally . professor c: mm - hmm . phd a: you know . `` hi , my name is so - and - so , professor c: yeah . phd a: i 'm from blah - blah - blah . `` and you could use that initial speech to do all these adaptations and professor c: right . grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: oh , the other thing i guess which which , uh , i do n't know much about as much as i should about the rest of the system but but , um , could n't you , uh , if you if you sort of did a first pass i do n't know what kind of , uh , uh , capability we have at the moment for for doing second passes on on , uh , uh , some kind of little small lattice , or a graph , or confusion network , or something . but if you did first pass with , um , the with either without the mean sub subtraction or with a a very short time one , and then , um , once you , uh , actually had the whole utterance in , if you did , um , the , uh , uh , longer time version then , based on everything that you had , um , and then at that point only used it to distinguish between , you know , top n , um , possible utterances or something , you you might it might not take very much time . i mean , i know in the large vocabulary stu uh , uh , systems , people were evaluating on in the past , some people really pushed everything in to make it in one pass but other people did n't and had multiple passes . and , um , the argument , um , against multiple passes was u u has often been `` but we want to this to be r you know have a nice interactive response `` . and the counterargument to that which , say , uh , bbn i think had , { comment } was `` yeah , but our second responses are second , uh , passes and third passes are really , really fast `` . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: so , um , if if your second pass takes a millisecond who cares ? um . grad e: s so , um , the the idea of the second pass would be waiting till you have more recorded speech ? or ? professor c: yeah , so if it turned out to be a problem , that you did n't have enough speech because you need a longer longer window to do this processing , then , uh , one tactic is you know , looking at the larger system and not just at the front - end stuff { comment } is to take in , um , the speech with some simpler mechanism or shorter time mechanism , grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: um , do the best you can , and come up with some al possible alternates of what might have been said . and , uh , either in the form of an n - best list or in the form of a lattice , or or confusion network , or whatever . grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: and then the decoding of that is much , much faster or can be much , much faster if it is n't a big bushy network . and you can decode that now with speech that you 've actually processed using this longer time , uh , subtraction . grad e: mmm . professor c: so i mean , it 's it 's common that people do this sort of thing where they do more things that are more complex or require looking over more time , whatever , in some kind of second pass . grad e: mm - hmm . ok . professor c: um , and again , if the second pass is really , really fast uh , another one i 've heard of is is in in connected digit stuff , um , going back and l and through backtrace and finding regions that are considered to be a d a digit , but , uh , which have very low energy . grad e: mm - hmm . ok . professor c: so , uh i mean , there 's lots of things you can do in second passes , at all sorts of levels . anyway , i 'm throwing too many things out . but . phd a: so is that , uh that it ? grad e: i guess that 's it . phd a: ok , uh , do you wan na go , sunil ? phd b: yep . um , so , the last two weeks was , like so i 've been working on that wiener filtering . and , uh , found that , uh , s single like , i just do a s normal wiener filtering , like the standard method of wiener filtering . and that does n't actually give me any improvement over like i mean , uh , b it actually improves over the baseline but it 's not like it does n't meet something like fifty percent or something . so , i 've been playing with the v phd a: improves over the base line mfcc system ? yeah . phd b: yeah . yeah . yeah . so , um so that 's the improvement is somewhere around , like , thirty percent over the baseline . professor c: is that using in combination with something else ? phd b: no , just just one stage wiener filter professor c: with with a phd b: which is a standard wiener filter . professor c: no , no , but i mean in combination with our on - line normalization or with the lda ? phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . so i just plug in the wiener filtering . professor c: oh , ok . phd b: i mean , in the s in our system , where phd a: oh , ok . phd b: so , i di i di professor c: so , does it g does that mean it gets worse ? or ? phd b: no . it actually improves over the baseline of not having a wiener filter in the whole system . like i have an lda f lda plus on - line normalization , and then i plug in the wiener filter in that , professor c: yeah ? phd b: so it improves over not having the wiener filter . so it improves but it it does n't take it like be beyond like thirty percent over the baseline . so professor c: but that 's what i 'm confused about , cuz i think i thought that our system was more like forty percent without the wiener filtering . phd b: no , it 's like , uh , phd d: mmm . phd a: is this with the v new vad ? phd b: well , these are not no , it 's the old vad . so my baseline was , uh , nine this is like w the baseline is ninety - five point six eight , and eighty - nine , and professor c: so i mean , if you can do all these in word errors it 's a lot a lot easier actually . phd b: what was that ? sorry ? professor c: if you do all these in word error rates it 's a lot easier , right ? phd b: oh , ok , ok , ok . errors , right , i do n't have . professor c: ok , cuz then you can figure out the percentages . phd b: it 's all accuracies . professor c: yeah . phd d: the baseline is something similar to a w i mean , the t the the baseline that you are talking about is the mfcc baseline , right ? phd b: the t yeah , there are two baselines . phd d: or ? phd b: ok . so the baseline one baseline is mfcc baseline that when i said thirty percent improvement it 's like mfcc baseline . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so so so what 's it start on ? the mfcc baseline is is what ? is at what level ? phd b: it 's the it 's just the mel frequency and that 's it . professor c: no , what 's what 's the number ? phd b: uh , so i i do n't have that number here . ok , ok , ok , i have it here . uh , it 's the vad plus the baseline actually . i 'm talking about the the mfcc plus i do a frame dropping on it . so that 's like the word error rate is like four point three . like ten point seven . professor c: four point three . what 's ten point seven ? phd b: it 's a medium misma ok , sorry . there 's a well ma well matched , medium mismatched , and a high matched . professor c: ah . phd b: so i do n't have the like the professor c: yeah . phd b: so professor c: ok , four point three , ten point seven , phd b: and forty forty . professor c: and phd b: forty percent is the high mismatch . professor c: ok . phd b: and that becomes like four point three professor c: not changed . phd b: yeah , it 's like ten point one . still the same . and the high mismatch is like eighteen point five . professor c: eighteen point five . phd b: five . professor c: and what were you just describing ? phd b: oh , the one is this one is just the baseline plus the , uh , wiener filter plugged into it . professor c: but where 's the , uh , on - line normalization and so on ? phd b: oh , ok . so sorry . so , with the with the on - line normalization , the performance was , um , ten ok , so it 's like four point three . uh , and again , that 's the ba the ten point , uh , four and twenty point one . that was with on - line normalization and lda . so the h well matched has like literally not changed by adding on - line or lda on it . but the i mean , even the medium mismatch is pretty much the same . and the high mismatch was improved by twenty percent absolute . professor c: ok , and what kind of number an and what are we talking about here ? phd b: it 's the it - it 's italian . professor c: is this ti - digits phd b: i 'm talking about italian , professor c: or italian ? phd b: yeah . professor c: and what did so , what was the , um , uh , corresponding number , say , for , um , uh , the alcatel system for instance ? phd b: mmm . professor c: do you know ? phd d: yeah , so it looks to be , um phd b: you have it ? phd d: yep , it 's three point four , uh , eight point , uh , seven , and , uh , thirteen point seven . phd b: yep . professor c: ok . phd b: so thanks . professor c: ok . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: ok . phd b: so , uh , this is the single stage wiener filter , with the noise estimation was based on first ten frames . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: actually i started with using the vad to estimate the noise and then i found that it works it does n't work for finnish and spanish because the vad endpoints are not good to estimate the noise because it cuts into the speech sometimes , so i end up overestimating the noise and getting a worse result . so it works only for italian by u for using a vad to estimate noise . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: it works for italian because the vad was trained on italian . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: so , uh so this was , uh and so this was giving um , this this was like not improving a lot on this baseline of not having the wiener filter on it . and , so , uh , i ran this stuff with one more stage of wiener filtering on it but the second time , what i did was i estimated the new wiener filter based on the cleaned up speech , and did , uh , smoothing in the frequency to to reduce the variance professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean , i have i 've i 've observed there are , like , a lot of bumps in the frequency when i do this wiener filtering which is more like a musical noise or something . and so by adding another stage of wiener filtering , the results on the speechdat - car was like , um so , i still do n't have the word error rate . i 'm sorry about it . but the overall improvement was like fifty - six point four six . this was again using ten frames of noise estimate and two stage of wiener filtering . and the rest is like the lda plu and the on - line normalization all remaining the same . uh , so this was , like , compared to , uh , uh fifty - seven is what you got by using the french telecom system , right ? phd d: no , i do n't think so . phd b: y i phd d: is it on italian ? phd b: no , this is over the whole speechdat - car . so phd d: oh , yeah , fifty - seven phd b: point phd d: right . phd b: yeah , so the new the new wiener filtering schema is like some fifty - six point four six which is like one percent still less than what you got using the french telecom system . phd d: uh - huh . mm - hmm . professor c: but it 's a pretty similar number in any event . phd b: it 's very similar . professor c: yeah . but again , you 're you 're more or less doing what they were doing , right ? phd b: it 's it 's different in a sense like i 'm actually cleaning up the cleaned up spectrum which they 're not doing . they 're d what they 're doing is , they have two stage stages of estimating the wiener filter , but the final filter , what they do is they they take it to their time domain by doing an inverse fourier transform . professor c: yeah . phd b: and they filter the original signal using that fil filter , professor c: uh - huh . phd b: which is like final filter is acting on the input noisy speech rather than on the cleaned up . so this is more like i 'm doing wiener filter twice , but the only thing is that the second time i 'm actually smoothing the filter and then cleaning up the cleaned up spectrum first level . and so that that 's that 's what the difference is . professor c: ok . phd b: and actually i tried it on s the original clean i mean , the original spectrum where , like , i the second time i estimate the filter but actually clean up the noisy speech rather the c s first output of the first stage and that does n't seems to be a giving , i mean , that much improvement . i i didn did n't run it for the whole case . and and what i t what i tried was , by using the same thing but uh , so we actually found that the vad is very , like , crucial . i mean , just by changing the vad itself gives you the a lot of improvement professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: by instead of using the current vad , if you just take up the vad output from the channel zero , { comment } when instead of using channel zero and channel one , because that was the p that was the reason why i was not getting a lot of improvement for estimating { comment } the noise . so i just used the channel zero vad to estimate the noise so that it gives me some reliable mar markers for this noise estimation . professor c: what 's a channel zero vad ? phd b: um , professor c: i 'm i 'm confused about that . phd b: so , it 's like phd d: so it 's the close - talking microphone . phd b: yeah , the close - talking without professor c: oh , oh , oh , oh . phd b: so because the channel zero and channel one are like the same speech , but only w i mean , the same endpoints . professor c: phd b: but the only thing is that the speech is very noisy for channel one , so you can actually use the output of the channel zero for channel one for the vad . i mean , that 's like a cheating method . professor c: right . i mean , so a are they going to pro what are they doing to do , do we know yet ? about as far as what they 're what the rules are going to be and what we can use ? phd d: yeah , so actually i received a a new document , describing this . phd b: yeah , that 's phd d: and what they did finally is to , mmm , uh , not to align the utterances but to perform recognition , um , only on the close - talking microphone , phd b: which is the channel zero . phd d: and to take the result of the recognition to get the boundaries uh , of speech . professor c: so it 's not like that 's being done in one place or one time . phd d: and professor c: that 's that 's just a rule and we 'd you you were permitted to do that . is is that it ? phd d: uh , i think they will send , um , files but we we do n't well , apparently professor c: oh , so they will send files so everybody will have the same boundaries to work with ? phd d: yeah . yeah . phd b: but actually their alignment actually is not seems to be improving in like on all cases . professor c: ok . phd d: oh , i yeah , so what happened here is that , um , the overall improvement that they have with this method so well , to be more precise , what they have is , they have these alignments and then they drop the beginning silence and and the end silence but they keep , uh , two hundred milliseconds before speech and two hundred after speech . and they keep the speech pauses also . um , and the overall improvement over the mfcc baseline so , when they just , uh , add this frame dropping in addition it 's r uh , forty percent , right ? professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: fourteen percent , i mean . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah , which is phd d: um , which is , um , t which is the overall improvement . but in some cases it does n't improve at all . like , uh , y do you remember which case ? professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: it gives like negative well , in in like some italian and ti - digits , phd d: yeah , some @ @ . phd b: right ? phd d: right . phd b: yeah . so by using the endpointed speech , actually it 's worse than the baseline in some instances , which could be due to the word pattern . phd d: mmm . yeah . professor c: yeah , phd d: and yeah , the other thing also is that fourteen percent is less than what you obtain using a real vad . phd b: yeah , our neural net phd d: so with without cheating like this . phd b: yeah , yeah . phd d: so uh so i think this shows that there is still work uh , well , working on the vad is still still important i think . professor c: yeah , c phd d: uh phd a: can i ask just a a high level question ? can you just say like one or two sentences about wiener filtering and why why are people doing that ? phd b: hmm . phd a: what 's what 's the deal with that ? phd b: ok , so the wiener filter , it 's it 's like it 's like you try to minimize i mean , so the basic principle of wiener filter is like you try to minimize the , uh , d uh , difference between the noisy signal and the clean signal if you have two channels . like let 's say you have a clean t signal and you have an additional channel where you know what is the noisy signal . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: and then you try to minimize the error between these two . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: so that 's the basic principle . and you get you can do that i mean , if if you have only a c noisy signal , at a level which you , you w try to estimate the noise from the w assuming that the first few frames are noise or if you have a w voice activity detector , uh , you estimate the noise spectrum . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: and then you phd a: do you assume the noise is the same ? phd b: yeah . in yeah , after the speech starts . phd a: uh - huh . phd b: so but that 's not the case in , uh , many many of our cases but it works reasonably well . phd a: i see . phd b: and and then you what you do is you , uh b fff . so again , i can write down some of these eq oh , ok . yeah . and then you do this uh , this is the transfer function of the wiener filter , so `` sf `` is a clean speech spectrum , power spectrum phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: and `` n `` is the noisy power spectrum . and so this is the transfer function . professor c: right phd b: and , professor c: actually , i guess phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd b: and then you multiply your noisy power spectrum with this . you get an estimate of the clean power spectrum . phd a: i see . ok . phd b: so but the thing is that you have to estimate the sf from the noisy spectrum , what you have . so you estimate the nf from the initial noise portions and then you subtract that from the current noisy spectrum to get an estimate of the sf . so sometimes that becomes zero because you do you do n't have a true estimate of the noise . so the f filter will have like sometimes zeros in it phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: because some frequency values will be zeroed out because of that . and that creates a lot of discontinuities across the spectrum because @ @ the filter . so , uh , so that 's what that was just the first stage of wiener filtering that i tried . phd a: so is this , um , basically s uh , similar to just regular spectral subtraction ? phd b: it professor c: it 's all pretty related , phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah . it 's it 's there 's a di there 's a whole class of techniques where you try in some sense to minimize the noise . phd a: uh - huh . professor c: and it 's typically a mean square sense , uh uh uh , i in in in some way . and , uh uh , spectral subtraction is is , uh uh , one approach to it . phd a: do people use the wiener filtering in combination with the spectral subtraction typically , or is i are they sort of competing techniques ? phd b: not seen . they are very s similar techniques . phd a: yeah . o oh , ok . phd b: so it 's like i have n't seen anybody using s wiener filter with spectral subtraction . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: i see , i see . professor c: i mean , in the long run you 're doing the same thing phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . professor c: but y but there you make different approximations , and in spectral subtraction , for instance , there 's a a an estimation factor . phd a: mmm . professor c: you sometimes will figure out what the noise is and you 'll multiply that noise spectrum times some constant and subtract that rather than and sometimes people even though this really should be in the power domain , sometimes people s work in the magnitude domain because it it it works better . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and , uh , uh , you know . phd a: so why did you choose , uh , wiener filtering over some other one of these other techniques ? phd b: uh , the reason was , like , we had this choice of using spectral subtraction , wiener filtering , and there was one more thing which i which i 'm trying , is this sub space approach . so , stephane is working on spectral subtraction . phd a: oh , ok . phd b: so i picked up phd a: so you 're sort of trying @ @ them all . phd b: y yeah , phd a: ah , phd b: we just wanted to have a few noise production compensation techniques phd a: i see . oh , ok . phd b: and then pick some from that phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: pick one . professor c: i m i mean yeah , i mean , there 's car - carmen 's working on another , on the vector taylor series . phd b: va yeah , vad . w yeah . professor c: so they were just kind of trying to cover a bunch of different things with this task and see , you know , what are what are the issues for each of them . phd a: ah , ok . that makes sense . phd b: yeah . phd a: yeah . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: um . phd a: cool , thanks . phd b: so so one of one of the things that i tried , like i said , was to remove those zeros in the fri filter by doing some smoothing of the filter . professor c: yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: like , you estimate the edge of square and then you do a f smoothing across the frequency so that those zeros get , like , flattened out . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: and that does n't seems to be improving by trying it on the first time . so what i did was like i p did this and then you i plugged in the one more the same thing but with the smoothed filter the second time . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: and that seems to be working . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: so that 's where i got like fifty - six point five percent improvement on speechdat - car with that . and so the other thing what i tried was i used still the ten frames of noise estimate but i used this channel zero vad to drop the frames . so i 'm not still not estimating . and that has taken the performance to like sixty - seven percent in speechdat - car , which is which which like sort of shows that by using a proper vad you can just take it to further , better levels . and so . phd a: so that 's sort of like , you know , best - case performance ? phd b: yeah , so far i 've seen sixty - seven i mean , no , i have n't seen s like sixty - seven percent . and , uh , using the channel zero vad to estimate the noise also seems to be improving but i do n't have the results for all the cases with that . so i used channel zero vad to estimate noise as a lesser 2 x frame , which is like , everywhere i use the channel zero vad . and that seems to be the best combination , uh , rather than using a few frames to estimate and then drop a channel . professor c: so i 'm i 'm still a little confused . is that channel zero information going to be accessible during this test . phd b: nnn , no . this is just to test whether we can really improve by using a better vad . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: so , professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean so this is like the noise compensation f is fixed phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: but you make a better decision on the endpoints . that 's , like seems to be professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: so we c so i mean , which which means , like , by using this technique what we improve just the vad professor c: yes . phd b: we can just take the performance by another ten percent or better . professor c: ok . phd b: so , that that was just the , uh , reason for doing that experiment . and , w um yeah , but this all these things , i have to still try it on the ti - digits , which is like i 'm just running . and there seems to be not improving a a lot on the ti - digits , so i 'm like investigating that , why it 's not . and , um , um well after that . so , uh so the other the other thing is like i 've been i 'm doing all this stuff on the power spectrum . so tried this stuff on the mel as well mel and the magnitude , and mel magnitude , and all those things . but it seems to be the power spectrum seems to be getting the best result . so , one of one of reasons i thought like doing the averaging , after the filtering using the mel filter bank , that seems to be maybe helping rather than trying it on the mel filter ba filtered outputs . professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd b: so just th professor c: ma makes sense . phd b: yeah , th that 's that 's the only thing that i could think of why why it 's giving improvement on the mel . and , yep . so that 's it . professor c: uh , how about the subspace stuff ? phd b: subspace , { comment } i 'm i 'm like that 's still in a little bit in the back burner because i 've been p putting a lot effort on this to make it work , on tuning things and other stuff . professor c: ok . phd b: so i was like going parallely but not much of improvement . i 'm just have some skeletons ready , need some more time for it . professor c: ok . phd b: mmm . phd a: tha - that it ? phd b: yep . yep . phd a: cool . do you wan na go , stephane ? phd d: uh , yeah . so , i 've been , uh , working still on the spectral subtraction . um , so to r to remind you a little bit of of what i did before , is just to apply some spectral subtraction with an overestimation factor also to get , um , an estimate of the noise , uh , spectrum , and subtract this estimation of the noise spectrum from the , uh , signal spectrum , { comment } but subtracting more when the snr is is , uh , low , which is a technique that it 's often used . phd a: `` subtracting more `` , meaning ? phd d: so you overestimate the noise spectrum . you multiply the noise spectrum by a factor , uh , which depends on the snr . phd a: oh , ok . i see . phd d: so , above twenty db , it 's one , so you just subtract the noise . phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: and then it 's b generally well , i use , actually , a linear , uh , function of the snr , phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: which is bounded to , like , two or three , { comment } when the snr is below zero db . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: um , doing just this , uh , either on the fft bins or on the mel bands , um , t does n't yield any improvement professor c: oh ! um , uh , what are you doing with negative , uh , powers ? phd d: o yeah . so there is also a threshold , of course , because after subtraction you can have negative energies , phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: and so what i i just do is to put , uh to to add to put the threshold first and then to add a small amount of noise , which right now is speech - shaped . um phd a: speech - shaped ? phd d: yeah , so it 's a it has the overall overall energy , uh pow it has the overall power spectrum of speech . so with a bump around one kilohertz . phd a: so when y when you talk about there being something less than zero after subtracting the noise , is that at a particular frequency bin ? phd d: i uh - huh . yeah . phd a: ok . phd d: there can be frequency bins with negative values . phd a: and so when you say you 're adding something that has the overall shape of speech , is that in a in a particular frequency bin ? or you 're adding something across all the frequencies when you get these negatives ? phd d: for each frequencies i a i 'm adding some , uh , noise , but the a the amount of the amount of noise i add is not the same for all the frequency bins . phd a: ah ! ok . i gotcha . right . phd d: uh . right now i do n't think if it makes sense to add something that 's speech - shaped , because then you have silence portion that have some spectra similar to the sp the overall speech spectra . phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: but yeah . so this is something i can still work on , phd a: so what does that mean ? phd d: but hmm . phd a: i 'm trying to understand what it means when you do the spectral subtraction and you get a negative . it means that at that particular frequency range you subtracted more energy than there was actually phd d: that means that mm - hmm . yeah . so so yeah , you have an an estimation of the noise spectrum , but sometimes , of course , it 's as the noise is not perfectly stationary , sometimes this estimation can be , uh , too small , so you do n't subtract enough . but sometimes it can be too large also . if if the noise , uh , energy in this particular frequency band drops for some reason . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: mmm . phd a: so in in an ideal word i world { comment } if the noise were always the same , then , when you subtracted it the worst that i you would get would be a zero . i mean , the lowest you would get would be a zero , cuz i if there was no other energy there you 're just subtracting exactly the noise . professor c: right . phd d: mm - hmm , professor c: yep , there 's all there 's all sorts of , uh , deviations from the ideal here . phd d: yeah . professor c: i mean , for instance , you 're you 're talking about the signal and noise , um , at a particular point . and even if something is sort of stationary in ster terms of statistics , there 's no guarantee that any particular instantiation or piece of it is exactly a particular number or bounded by a particular range . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so , you 're figuring out from some chunk of of of the signal what you think the noise is . then you 're subtracting that from another chunk , phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and there 's absolutely no reason to think that you 'd know that it would n't , uh , be negative in some places . phd d: mm - hmm . hmm . professor c: uh , on the other hand that just means that in some sense you 've made a mistake because you certainly have stra subtracted a bigger number than is due to the noise . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: um also , we speak the whole where all this stuff comes from is from an assumption that signal and noise are uncorrelated . and that certainly makes sense in s in in a statistical interpretation , that , you know , over , um , all possible realizations that they 're uncorrelated phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: or assuming , uh , ergodicity that i that i um , across time , uh , it 's uncorrelated . but if you just look at a quarter second , uh , and you cross - multiply the two things , uh , you could very well , uh , end up with something that sums to something that 's not zero . so in fact , the two signals could have some relation to one another . and so there 's all sorts of deviations from ideal in this . and and given all that , you could definitely end up with something that 's negative . but if down the road you 're making use of something as if it is a power spectrum , um , then it can be bad to have something negative . now , the other thing i wonder about actually is , what if you left it negative ? what happens ? phd b: is that the log ? professor c: i mean , because um , are you taking the log before you add them up to the mel ? phd b: after that . no , after . professor c: right . so the thing is , i wonder how if you put your thresholds after that , i wonder how often you would end up with , uh with negative values . phd b: but you will but you end up reducing some neighboring frequency bins @ @ in the average , right ? when you add the negative to the positive value which is the true estimate . professor c: yeah . but nonetheless , uh , you know , these are it 's another f kind of smoothing , right ? that you 're doing . phd b: yeah . professor c: right . so , you 've done your best shot at figuring out what the noise should be , and now i then you 've subtracted it off . and then after that , instead of instead of , uh , uh , leaving it as is and adding things adding up some neighbors , you artificially push it up . phd b: hmm . professor c: which is , you know , it 's there 's no particular reason that that 's the right thing to do either , right ? phd b: yeah , yeah . professor c: so , um , uh , i in fact , what you 'd be doing is saying , `` well , we 're d we 're we 're going to definitely diminish the effect of this frequency in this little frequency bin in the in the overall mel summation `` . it 's just a thought . i d i do n't know if it would be phd a: sort of the opposite of that would be if if you find out you 're going to get a negative number , you do n't do the subtraction for that bin . phd b: yeah . uh - huh . that is true . professor c: nnn , yeah , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: although phd a: that would be almost the opposite , right ? instead of leaving it negative , you do n't do it . if your if your subtraction 's going to result in a negative number , you you do n't do subtraction in that . professor c: yeah , but that means that in a situation where you thought that that the bin was almost entirely noise , you left it . phd a: yeah . yeah , i 'm just saying that 's like the opposite . phd b: we just professor c: uh . phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd a: yeah . professor c: well , yeah that 's that 's the opposite , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah . phd d: and , yeah , some people also if it 's a negative value they , uh , re - compute it using inter interpolation from the edges and bins . phd b: for frames , frequency bins . professor c: yeah . phd d: well , there are different things that you can do . phd a: oh . professor c: people can also , uh , reflect it back up and essentially do a full wave rectification instead of a instead of half wave . phd a: oh . professor c: but it was just a thought that that it might be something to try . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . yep . well , actually i tried , something else based on this , um , is to to put some smoothing , um , because it seems to to help or it seems to help the wiener filtering professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and , mmm so what i did is , uh , some kind of nonlinear smoothing . actually i have a recursion that computes yeah , let me go back a little bit . actually , when you do spectral subtraction you can , uh , find this this equivalent in the s in the spectral domain . you can uh compute , y you can say that d your spectral subtraction is a filter , um , and the gain of this filter is the , um , signal energy minus what you subtract , divided by the signal energy . and this is a gain that varies over time , and , you know , of course , uh , depending on the s on the noise spectrum and on the speech spectrum . and what happen actually is that during low snr values , the gain is close to zero but it varies a lot . mmm , and this this is the cause of musical noise and all these the { comment } the fact you we go below zero one frame and then you can have an energy that 's above zero . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and mmm . so the smoothing is i did a smoothing actually on this gain , uh , trajectory . but it 's the smoothing is nonlinear in the sense that i tried to not smooth if the gain is high , because in this case we know that , uh , the estimate of the gain is correct because we we are not close to to to zero , um , and to do more smoothing if the gain is low . mmm . um . yeah . so , well , basically that 's this idea , and it seems to give pretty good results , uh , although i 've just just tested on italian and finnish . and on italian it seems my result seems to be a little bit better than the wiener filtering , phd b: mm - hmm . yeah , the one you showed yesterday . phd d: right ? phd b: right ? professor c: yeah . phd d: uh , i do n't know if you have these improvement the detailed improvements for italian , finnish , and spanish there phd b: fff . no , i do n't have , for each , phd d: or you have just have your own . phd b: i i just just have the final number here . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so these numbers he was giving before with the four point three , and the ten point one , and so forth , those were italian , right ? phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah . so so , no , professor c: yeah . phd d: uh phd b: i actually did n't give you the number which is the final one , phd d: uh , no , we 've phd b: which is , after two stages of wiener filtering . i mean , that was i just well , like the overall improvement is like fifty - six point five . so , professor c: right . phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean , his number is still better than what i got in the two stages of wiener filtering . phd d: yeah . professor c: right . phd d: on italian . but on finnish it 's a little bit worse , apparently . phd b: mm - hmm . phd d: um professor c: but do you have numbers in terms of word error rates on on italian ? so just so you have some sense of reference ? phd d: yeah . uh , so , it 's , uh , three point , uh , eight . professor c: uh - huh . phd d: am i right ? phd b: oh , ok . yeah , right , ok . phd d: and then , uh , d uh , nine point , uh , one . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and finally , uh , sixteen point five . professor c: and this is , um , spectral subtraction plus what ? phd d: plus plus nonlinear smoothing . well , it 's the system it 's exactly the sys the same system as sunil tried , professor c: on - line normalization and lda ? phd d: but professor c: yeah . yeah . phd d: yeah . but instead of double stage wiener filtering , it 's it 's this smoothed spectral subtraction . um , yeah . phd a: what is it the , um , france telecom system uses professor c: right . phd a: for do they use spectral subtraction , or wiener filtering , or ? phd b: they use spectral subtraction , right . phd d: for what ? phd b: french telecom . phd d: it it 's wiener filtering , phd b: oh , it 's it 's wiener filtering . phd d: am i right ? phd a: oh . phd b: sorry . phd d: well , it 's some kind of wiener filtering phd b: yeah , filtering . yeah , it 's not exactly wiener filtering but some variant of wiener filtering . phd d: yeah . phd a: i see . phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah , plus , uh , i guess they have some sort of cepstral normalization , as well . phd b: s they have like yeah , th the just noise compensation technique is a variant of wiener filtering , phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: plus they do some some smoothing techniques on the final filter . the th they actually do the filtering in the time domain . phd a: mmm . phd d: yeah . phd a: hmm . phd b: so they would take this hf squared back , taking inverse fourier transform . and they convolve the time domain signal with that . phd a: oh , i see . phd b: and they do some smoothing on that final filter , impulse response . phd a: hmm . phd d: but they also have two two different smoothing @ @ . phd b: i mean , i 'm i 'm @ @ . phd d: one in the time domain and one in the frequency domain by just taking the first , um , coefficients of the impulse response . phd b: but . phd d: so , basically it 's similar . i mean , what you did , it 's similar phd b: it 's similar in the smoothing and phd d: because you have also two two kind of smoothing . phd b: yeah . phd d: one in the time domain , and one in the frequency domain , phd b: yeah . the frequency domain . phd d: yeah . phd a: does the smoothing in the time domain help phd d: um phd a: well , do you get this musical noise stuff with wiener filtering or is that only with , uh , spectral subtraction ? phd b: no , you get it with wiener filtering also . phd d: yeah . phd a: does the smoothing in the time domain help with that ? or some other smoothing ? phd b: oh , no , you still end up with zeros in the s spectrum . sometimes . phd d: yeah . phd a: hmm . professor c: i mean , it 's not clear that these musical noises hurt us in recognition . phd a: hmm . professor c: we do n't know if they do . phd b: yeah . professor c: i mean , they they sound bad . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah , i know . professor c: but we 're not listening to it , usually . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: hmm . phd d: uh , actually the the smoothing that i did do here reduced the musical noise . well , it phd b: mm - hmm . yeah , yeah , phd d: mmm . phd b: the phd d: well , i can not you can not hear beca well , actually what i d did not say is that this is not in the fft bins . this is in the mel frequency bands . um so , it could be seen as a f a a smoothing in the frequency domain because i used , in ad mel bands in addition and then the other phase of smoothing in the time domain . mmm . but , when you look at the spectrogram , if you do n't have an any smoothing , you clearly see , like in silence portions , and at the beginning and end of speech , you see spots of high energy randomly distributed over the the spectrogram . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: um phd a: that 's the musical noise ? phd d: which is musical noise , phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah , if if it if you listen to it uh , if you do this in the fft bins , then you have spots of energy randomly distributing . and if you f if you re - synthesize these spot sounds as , like , sounds , phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: uh professor c: well , none of these systems , by the way , have i mean , y you both are are working with , um , our system that does not have the neural net , phd d: and phd b: yep . professor c: right ? phd b: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: ok . so one would hope , presumably , that the neural net part of it would would improve things further as as they did before . phd d: yeah . yeah . um yeah , although if if we , um , look at the result from the proposals , { comment } one of the reason , uh , the n system with the neural net was , um , more than well , around five percent better , is that it was much better on highly mismatched condition . i 'm thinking , for instance , on the ti - digits trained on clean speech and tested on noisy speech . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: uh , for this case , the system with the neural net was much better . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: but not much on the in the other cases . professor c: yeah . phd d: and if we have no , uh , spectral subtraction or wiener filtering , um , i the system is uh , we thought the neural neural network is much better than before , even in these cases of high mismatch . so , maybe the neural net will help less but , um professor c: maybe . phd a: could you train a neural net to do spectral subtraction ? professor c: yeah , it could do a nonlinear spectral subtraction phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: but i do n't know if it i mean , you have to figure out what your targets are . phd a: yeah , i was thinking if you had a clean version of the signal and and a noisy version , and your targets were the m f - uh , you know , whatever , frequency bins phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: right . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah , well , that 's not so much spectral subtraction then , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: but but but it 's but at any rate , yeah , people , uh phd a: people do that ? professor c: y yeah , in fact , we had visitors here who did that i think when you were here ba way back when . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: hmm . professor c: uh , people d done lots of experimentation over the years with training neural nets . and it 's not a bad thing to do . it 's another approach . phd a: hmm . professor c: m i mean , it 's it , um phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: the objection everyone always raises , which has some truth to it is that , um , it 's good for mapping from a particular noise to clean but then you get a different noise . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and the experiments we saw that visitors did here showed that it there was at least some , um , { comment } gentleness to the degradation when you switched to different noises . it did seem to help . so that you 're right , that 's another another way to go . phd a: how did it compare on i mean , for for good cases where it it uh , stuff that it was trained on ? did it do pretty well ? professor c: oh , yeah , it did very well . phd a: mmm . professor c: yeah . phd a: mmm . professor c: um , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: but to some extent that 's kind of what we 're doing . i mean , we 're not doing exactly that , we 're not trying to generate good examples but by trying to do the best classifier you possibly can , for these little phonetic categories , phd a: mm - hmm . you could say it 's sort of built in . professor c: it 's yeah , it 's kind of built into that . phd a: hmm . professor c: and and that 's why we have found that it it does help . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: um so , um , yeah , i mean , we 'll just have to try it . but i i would i would i would imagine that it will help some . i mean , it we 'll just have to see whether it helps more or less the same , but i would imagine it would help some . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so in any event , all of this i was just confirming that all of this was with a simpler system . phd d: yeah , professor c: ok ? phd d: yeah . um , yeah , so this is th the , um well , actually , this was kind of the first try with this spectral subtraction plus smoothing , professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and i was kind of excited by the result . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: um , then i started to optimize the different parameters . and , uh , the first thing i tried to optimize is the , um , time constant of the smoothing . and it seems that the one that i chose for the first experiment was the optimal one , so uh , professor c: it 's amazing how often that happens . phd d: um , so this is the first thing . um yeah , another thing that i it 's important to mention is , um , that this has a this has some additional latency . um . because when i do the smoothing , uh , it 's a recursion that estimated the means , so of the g of the gain curve . and this is a filter that has some latency . and i noticed that it 's better if we take into account this latency . so , instead o of using the current estimated mean to , uh , subtract the current frame , it 's better to use an estimate that 's some somewhere in the future . um phd a: and that 's what causes the latency ? ok . phd b: you mean , the m the mean is computed o based on some frames in the future also ? professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . phd b: or or no ? phd d: it 's the recursion , so it 's it 's the center recursion , right ? phd b: mm - hmm . phd d: um and the latency of this recursion is around fifty milliseconds . professor c: one five ? phd d: professor c: one five ? five zero ? phd d: five zero , professor c: five zero . phd d: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd d: um , phd b: i 'm sorry , phd d: mmm . phd b: why why is that delay coming ? like , you estimate the mean ? phd d: yeah , the mean estimation has some delay , right ? phd b: oh , yeah . phd d: i mean , the the filter that that estimates the mean has a time constant . phd b: it is n't ok , so it 's like it looks into the future also . ok . phd d: yeah . professor c: what if you just look into the past ? phd d: it 's , uh , not as good . it 's not bad . professor c: how m by how much ? phd d: um , it helps a lot over the ba the baseline but , mmm professor c: by how much ? phd d: it it 's around three percent , um , relative . professor c: worse . phd d: yeah . yeah . um , professor c: hmm . phd d: mmm so , uh professor c: it 's depending on how all this stuff comes out we may or may not be able to add any latency . phd d: yeah , but yeah . so , yeah , it depends . uh , y actually , it 's it 's l it 's three percent . right . mmm . yeah , b but i do n't think we have to worry too much on that right now while you kno . mm - hmm . professor c: um , s yeah , i mean , i think the only thing is that phd d: so professor c: i would worry about it a little . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: because if we completely ignore latency , and then we discover that we really have to do something about it , we 're going to be find ourselves in a bind . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so , um , you know , maybe you could make it twenty - five . you know what i mean ? phd d: yeah . professor c: yeah , just , you know , just be be a little conservative phd d: oh yes . professor c: because we may end up with this crunch where all of a sudden we have to cut the latency in half or something . phd d: s mm - hmm . yeah . professor c: ok . phd d: um . so , yeah , there are other things in the , um , algorithm that i did n't , uh , @ @ a lot yet , phd a: oh ! phd d: which phd a: sorry . a quick question just about the latency thing . if if there 's another part of the system that causes a latency of a hundred milliseconds , is this an additive thing ? or c or is yours hidden in that ? phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: uh phd d: no , it 's it 's added . phd a: it 's additive . ok . phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: we can ok . we can do something in parallel also , in some like some cases like , if you wanted to do voice activity detection . phd a: uh - huh . phd b: and we can do that in parallel with some other filtering you can do . phd d: mmm . phd b: so you can make a decision on that voice activity detection and then you decide whether you want to filter or not . phd d: yeah . phd b: but by then you already have the sufficient samples to do the filtering . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: so so , sometimes you can do it anyway . phd a: i mean , could n't , uh i could n't you just also i mean , i if you know that the l the largest latency in the system is two hundred milliseconds , do n't you could n't you just buffer up that number of frames and then everything uses that buffer ? phd b: yeah . phd a: and that way it 's not additive ? professor c: well , in fact , everything is sent over in buffers cuz of is n't it the tcp buffer some ? phd b: you mean , the the data , the super frame or something ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah , yeah . phd d: yeah . phd b: yeah , but that has a variable latency because the last frame does n't have any latency phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: and first frame has a twenty framed latency . so you ca n't r rely on that latency all the time . professor c: yeah . phd b: because i mean the transmission over over the air interface is like a buffer . phd d: yeah . phd b: twenty frame phd a: yeah . phd b: twenty four frames . phd a: yeah . phd b: so but the only thing is that the first frame in that twenty - four frame buffer has a twenty - four frame latency . and the last frame does n't have any latency . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: because it just goes as phd a: yeah , i was n't thinking of that one in particular phd b: yeah . phd a: but more of , you know , if if there is some part of your system that has to buffer twenty frames , uh , ca n't the other parts of the system draw out of that buffer and therefore not add to the latency ? professor c: yeah . yeah . and and that 's sort of one of the all of that sort of stuff is things that they 're debating in their standards committee . phd a: oh ! hmm . phd d: mm - hmm . yeah . so , um , there is uh , { comment } these parameters that i still have to to look at . like , i played a little bit with this overestimation factor , uh , but i still have to to look more at this , um , at the level of noise i add after . uh , i know that adding noise helped , um , the system just using spectral subtraction without smoothing , but i do n't know right now if it 's still important or not , and if the level i choose before is still the right one . same thing for the shape of the the noise . maybe it would be better to add just white noise instead of speech shaped noise . professor c: that 'd be more like the jrasta thing in a sense . yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . um , yep . uh , and another thing is to yeah , for this i just use as noise estimate the mean , uh , spectrum of the first twenty frames of each utterance . i do n't remember for this experiment what did you use for these two stage phd b: i used ten just ten frames . yeah , because phd d: the ten frames ? phd b: i mean , the reason was like in ti - digits i do n't have a lot . i had twenty frames most of the time . phd d: mm - hmm . um . but , so what 's this result you told me about , the fact that if you use more than ten frames you can improve by t phd b: well , that 's that 's using the channel zero . if i use a channel zero vad to estimate the noise . phd d: oh , ok . phd b: which phd d: but this is ten frames plus plus phd b: channel zero dropping . phd d: channel phd b: hmm . phd d: uh , no , these results with two stage wiener filtering is ten frames phd b: t oh , this phd d: but possibly more . i mean , if channel one vad gives you phd b: f yeah . mm - hmm . yeah . phd d: yeah . ok . yeah , but in this experiment i did i did n't use any vad . i just used the twenty first frame to estimate the noise . and so i expected it to be a little bit better , if , uh , i use more more frames . um . ok , that 's it for spectral subtraction . the second thing i was working on is to , um , try to look at noise estimation , { comment } mmm , and using some technique that does n't need voice activity detection . um , and for this i u simply used some code that , uh , i had from from belgium , which is technique that , um , takes a bunch of frame , um , and for each frequency bands of this frame , takes a look at the minima of the energy . and then average these minima and take this as an an energy estimate of the noise for this particular frequency band . and there is something more to this actually . what is done is that , uh , these minima are computed , um , based on , um , high resolution spectra . so , i compute an fft based on the long , uh , signal frame which is sixty - four millisecond phd a: so you have one minimum for each frequency ? phd d: what what i what i d uh , i do actually , is to take a bunch of to take a tile on the spectrogram and this tile is five hundred milliseconds long and two hundred hertz wide . phd a: mmm . phd d: and this tile uh , in this tile appears , like , the harmonics if you have a voiced sound , because it 's it 's the ftt bins . and when you take the m the minima of of these this tile , when you do n't have speech , these minima will give you some noise level estimate , if you have voiced speech , these minima will still give you some noise estimate because the minima are between the harmonics . and if you have other other kind of speech sounds then it 's not the case , but if the time frame is long enough , uh , like s five hundred milliseconds seems to be long enough , { comment } you still have portions which , uh , are very close whi which minima are very close to the noise energy . professor c: i 'm confused . you said five hundred milliseconds phd d: mmm ? professor c: but you said sixty - four milliseconds . which is which ? what ? phd d: sixty - four milliseconds is to compute the fft , uh , bins . professor c: yeah , phd d: the the fft . professor c: yeah . phd d: um , actually it 's better to use sixty - four milliseconds because , um , if you use thirty milliseconds , then , uh , because of the this short windowing and at low pitch , uh , sounds , the harmonics are not , wha uh , correctly separated . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: so if you take these minima , it b they will overestimate the noise a lot . professor c: so you take sixty - four millisecond f f ts and then you average them { comment } over five hundred ? or ? uh , what do you do over five hundred ? phd d: so i take to i take a bunch of these sixty - four millisecond frame to cover five hundred milliseconds , professor c: ah . ok . phd d: and then i look for the minima , phd a: mmm . professor c: i see . phd d: on the on on the bunch of uh fifty frames , right ? professor c: i see . phd d: mmm . so the interest of this is that , as y with this technique you can estimate u some reasonable noise spectra with only five hundred milliseconds of of signal , so if the the n the noise varies a lot , uh , you can track better track the noise , professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: which is not the case if you rely on the voice activity detector . so even if there are no no speech pauses , you can track the noise level . the only requirement is that you must have , in these five hundred milliseconds segment , { comment } you must have voiced sound at least . cuz this these will help you to to track the the noise level . um . so what i did is just to simply replace the vad - based , uh , noise estimate by this estimate , first on speechdat - car well , only on speechdat - car actually . and it 's , uh , slightly worse , like one percent relative compared to the vad - based estimates . um , i think the reason why it 's not better , is that the speechdat - car noises are all stationary . um . so , u y y there really is no need to have something that 's adaptive professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and uh , well , they are mainly stationary . um . but , i expect s maybe some improvement on ti - digits because , nnn , in this case the noises are all sometimes very variable . uh , so i have to test it . mmm . professor c: but are you comparing with something e i 'm i 'm p s a little confused again , i it uh , when you compare it with the v a d - based , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: vad - is this is this the ? phd d: it 's it 's the france - telecom - based spectra , s uh , wiener filtering and vad . so it 's their system but just i replace their noise estimate by this one . professor c: oh , you 're not doing this with our system ? phd d: in i i 'm not no , no . yeah , it 's our system but with just the wiener filtering from their system . right ? mmm . professor c: ok . phd d: yeah . actually , th the best system that we still have is , uh , our system but with their noise compensation scheme , right ? professor c: right . but phd d: so i 'm trying to improve on this , and by by replacing their noise estimate by , uh , something that might be better . professor c: ok . but the spectral subtraction scheme that you reported on also re requires a a noise estimate . phd d: yeah . yeah . professor c: could n't you try this for that ? phd d: but i di professor c: do you think it might help ? phd d: not yet , because i did this in parallel , professor c: i see , phd d: and i was working on one and the other . professor c: i see . yeah . phd d: um , phd b: yeah . phd d: yeah , for for sure i will . i can try also , mmm , the spectral subtraction . phd b: so i 'm also using that n new noise estimate technique on this wiener filtering what i 'm trying . professor c: ok . phd b: so i i have , like , some experiments running , i do n't have the results . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah . phd b: so . professor c: yeah . phd b: i do n't estimate the f noise on the ten frames but use his estimate . professor c: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . um . yeah . i , um , also implemented a sp um spectral whitening idea which is in the , um , ericsson proposal . uh , the idea is just to um , flatten the log , uh , spectrum , um , and to flatten it more if the the probability of silence is higher . so in this way , you can also reduce somewhat reduce the musical noise and you reduce the variability if you have different noise shapes , because the the spectrum becomes more flat in the silence portions . um . yeah . with this , no improvement , uh , but there are a lot of parameters that we can play with and , um actually , this this could be seen as a soft version of the frame dropping because , um , you could just put the threshold and say that `` below the threshold , i will flatten comp completely flatten the the spectrum `` . and above this threshold , uh , keep the same spectrum . so it would be like frame dropping , because during the silence portions which are below the threshold of voice activity probability , { comment } uh , w you would have some kind of dummy frame which is a perfectly flat spectrum . and this , uh , whitening is something that 's more soft because , um , you whiten you just , uh , have a function the whitening is a function of the speech probability , so it 's not a hard decision . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: um , so i think maybe it can be used together with frame dropping and when we are not sure about if it 's speech or silence , well , maybe it has something do with this . professor c: it 's interesting . i mean , um , you know , in in jrasta we were essentially adding in , uh , white uh , white noise dependent on our estimate of the noise . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: on the overall estimate of the noise . uh , i think it never occurred to us to use a probability in there . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: you could imagine one that that that made use of where where the amount that you added in was , uh , a function of the probability of it being s speech or noise . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . yeah , w yeah , right now it 's a constant that just depending on the the noise spectrum . phd b: there 's professor c: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: cuz that that brings in sort of powers of classifiers that we do n't really have in , uh , this other estimate . so it could be it could be interesting . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: what what what point does the , uh , system stop recording ? how much phd a: it 'll keep going till i guess when they run out of disk space , professor c: it went a little long ? i mean , disk phd a: but i think we 're ok . phd d: so . professor c: ok . phd d: yeah . uh yeah , so there are with this technique there are some i just did something exactly the same as as the ericsson proposal but , um , the probability of speech is not computed the same way . and i think , i for yeah , for a lot of things , actually a g a good speech probability is important . like for frame dropping you improve , like you can improve from ten percent as sunil showed , if you use the channel zero speech probabilities . professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: for this it might help , um professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: s so , yeah . uh , so yeah , the next thing i started to do is to , uh , try to develop a better voice activity detector . and , um i d um yeah , for this i think we can maybe try to train the neural network for voice activity detection on all the data that we have , including all the speechdat - car data . um and so i 'm starting to obtain alignments on these databases . um , and the way i mi i do that is that i just use the htk system but i train it only on the close - talking microphone . and then i aligned i obtained the viterbi alignment of the training utterances . um it seems to be , uh i actually what i observed is that for italian it does n't seem th - there seems to be a problem . phd b: no . so , it does n't seems to help by their use of channel zero or channel one . phd d: well . because what ? phd b: uh , you mean their d the frame dropping , right ? yeah , it does n't phd d: yeah . yeah . so , u but actually the vad was trained on italian also , phd b: italian . phd d: so um , the c the current vad that we have was trained on , uh , t spine , right ? phd b: ti - digits . phd d: italian , and ti - digits with noise and phd b: phd d: uh , yeah . and it seems to work on italian but not on the finnish and spanish data . so , maybe one reason is that s s finnish and spanish noise are different . and actually we observed we listened to some of the utterances and sometimes for finnish there is music in the recordings and strange things , right ? phd b: yeah . phd d: um yeah , so the idea was to train all the databases and obtain an alignment to train on these databases , and , um , also to , um , try different kind of features , uh , as input to the vad network . and we came up with a bunch of features that we want to try like , um , the spectral slope , the , um , the degree o degree of voicing with the features that , uh , we started to develop with carmen , um , e with , uh , the correlation between bands and different kind of features , phd b: yeah . mm - hmm . phd d: and yeah . phd b: the energy also . phd d: the energy . phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah , right . phd d: yeah . of course . yeah . professor c: ok . well , hans - guenter will be here next week so i think he 'll be interested in all all of these things . and , so . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: mmm . phd a: ok , shall we , uh , do digits ? professor c: yeah . phd a: want to go ahead , morgan ? professor c: sure . phd a: ok .

the professor suggested that the model essentially improved performance after the first utterance as it had more data . there was a higher error probability for the first utterance . this issue could potentially be resolved using a second-pass system , in which the initial utterance was processed differently .

what did grad e think about the goal of his experiment ? </s> phd a: ok , we 're going . phd d: damn . professor c: and uh hans - uh , hans - guenter will be here , um , i think by next next tuesday or so . phd b: oh , ok . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so he 's he 's going to be here for about three weeks , phd b: oh ! that 's nice . phd a: just for a visit ? professor c: and , uh uh , we 'll see . phd a: huh . professor c: we might might end up with some longer collaboration or something . phd a: cool . professor c: so he 's gon na look in on everything we 're doing phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: and give us his his thoughts . and so it 'll be another another good person looking at things . phd b: oh . hmm . grad e: th - that 's his spectral subtraction group ? professor c: yeah , grad e: is that right ? professor c: yeah . grad e: oh , ok . so i guess i should probably talk to him a bit too ? professor c: oh , yeah . yeah . yeah . no , he 'll be around for three weeks . he 's , uh , um , very , very , easygoing , easy to talk to , and , uh , very interested in everything . phd a: really nice guy . professor c: yeah , yeah . phd b: yeah , we met him in amsterdam . professor c: yeah , yeah , he 's been here before . phd b: oh , ok . professor c: i mean , he 's he 's he 's he 's phd a: wh - back when i was a grad student he was here for a , uh , uh a year or { comment } n six months . phd b: i have n't noticed him . professor c: n nine months . phd a: something like that . professor c: something like that . phd a: yeah . professor c: yeah . yeah . he 's he 's done a couple stays here . phd b: hmm . professor c: yeah . phd a: so , um , { comment } i guess we got lots to catch up on . and we have n't met for a couple of weeks . we did n't meet last week , morgan . um , i went around and talked to everybody , and it seemed like they they had some new results but rather than them coming up and telling me i figured we should just wait a week and they can tell both you know , all of us . so , um , why do n't we why do n't we start with you , dave , and then , um , we can go on . grad e: oh , ok . phd a: so . grad e: so , um , since we 're looking at putting this , um mean log m magnitude spectral subtraction , um , into the smartkom system , i i did a test seeing if , um , it would work using past only { comment } and plus the present to calculate the mean . so , i did a test , um , where i used twelve seconds from the past and the present frame to , um , calculate the mean . and phd a: twelve seconds twelve twelve seconds back from the current frame , is that what you mean ? grad e: uh twelve seconds , um , counting back from the end of the current frame , phd a: ok , ok . grad e: yeah . so it was , um , twen i think it was twenty - one frames and that worked out to about twelve seconds . phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: and compared to , um , do using a twelve second centered window , i think there was a drop in performance but it was just a slight drop . phd a: hmm ! professor c: mm - hmm . grad e: is is that right ? professor c: um , yeah , i mean , it was pretty it was pretty tiny . yeah . grad e: uh - huh . so that was encouraging . and , um , that that um , that 's encouraging for for the idea of using it in an interactive system like and , um , another issue i 'm i 'm thinking about is in the smartkom system . so say twe twelve seconds in the earlier test seemed like a good length of time , but what happens if you have less than twelve seconds ? and , um so i w bef before , um back in may , i did some experiments using , say , two seconds , or four seconds , or six seconds . in those i trained the models using mean subtraction with the means calculated over two seconds , or four seconds , or six seconds . and , um , here , i was curious , what if i trained the models using twelve seconds but i f i gave it a situation where the test set i was subtracted using two seconds , or four seconds , or six seconds . and , um so i did that for about three different conditions . and , um i mean , i th i think it was , um , four se i think i think it was , um , something like four seconds and , um , six seconds , and eight seconds . something like that . and it seems like it it it hurts compared to if you actually train the models { comment } using th that same length of time but it it does n't hurt that much . um , u usually less than point five percent , although i think i did see one where it was a point eight percent or so rise in word error rate . but this is , um , w where , um , even if i train on the , uh , model , and mean subtracted it with the same length of time as in the test , it the word error rate is around , um , ten percent or nine percent . so it does n't seem like that big a d a difference . professor c: but it but looking at it the other way , is n't it what you 're saying that it did n't help you to have the longer time for training , if you were going to have a short time for grad e: that that 's true . um , professor c: i mean , why would you do it , if you knew that you were going to have short windows in testing . grad e: wa phd a: yeah , it seems like for your i mean , in normal situations you would never get twelve seconds of speech , right ? i 'm not e u phd b: you need twelve seconds in the past to estimate , right ? or l or you 're looking at six sec seconds in future and six in professor c: yeah . grad e: um , t twelve s professor c: no , total . grad e: n n uh for the test it 's just twelve seconds in the past . phd b: no , it 's all oh , ok . phd a: is this twelve seconds of uh , regardless of speech or silence ? or twelve seconds of speech ? grad e: of of speech . phd a: ok . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: the other thing , um , which maybe relates a little bit to something else we 've talked about in terms of windowing and so on is , that , um , i wonder if you trained with twelve seconds , and then when you were two seconds in you used two seconds , and when you were four seconds in , you used four seconds , and when you were six and you basically build up to the twelve seconds . so that if you have very long utterances you have the best , grad e: yeah . professor c: but if you have shorter utterances you use what you can . grad e: right . and that 's actually what we 're planning to do in professor c: ok . yeah . grad e: but s so i g so i guess the que the question i was trying to get at with those experiments is , `` does it matter what models you use ? does it matter how much time y you use to calculate the mean when you were , um , tra doing the training data ? `` professor c: right . but i mean the other thing is that that 's i mean , the other way of looking at this , going back to , uh , mean cepstral subtraction versus rasta kind of things , is that you could look at mean cepstral subtraction , especially the way you 're doing it , uh , as being a kind of filter . and so , the other thing is just to design a filter . you know , basically you 're you 're you 're doing a high - pass filter or a band - pass filter of some sort and and just design a filter . and then , you know , a filter will have a certain behavior and you loo can look at the start up behavior when you start up with nothing . grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: and and , you know , it will , uh , if you have an iir filter for instance , it will , um , uh , not behave in the steady - state way that you would like it to behave until you get a long enough period , but , um , uh , by just constraining yourself to have your filter be only a subtraction of the mean , you 're kind of , you know , tying your hands behind your back because there 's filters have all sorts of be temporal and spectral behaviors . grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: and the only thing , you know , consistent that we know about is that you want to get rid of the very low frequency component . grad e: hmm . phd b: but do you really want to calculate the mean ? and you neglect all the silence regions { comment } or you just use everything that 's twelve seconds , and grad e: um , you do you mean in my tests so far ? phd b: ye - yeah . grad e: most of the silence has been cut out . phd b: ok . grad e: just there 's just inter - word silences . phd b: mm - hmm . and they are , like , pretty short . shor grad e: pretty short . phd b: yeah , ok . grad e: yeah . phd b: yeah . mm - hmm . so you really need a lot of speech to estimate the mean of it . grad e: well , if i only use six seconds , it still works pretty well . phd b: yeah . yeah . uh - huh . grad e: i saw in my test before . i was trying twelve seconds cuz that was the best in my test before phd b: ok . grad e: and that increasing past twelve seconds did n't seem to help . phd b: hmm . huh . grad e: th um , yeah , i guess it 's something i need to play with more to decide how to set that up for the smartkom system . like , may maybe if i trained on six seconds it would work better when i only had two seconds or four seconds , and professor c: yeah . yeah . and , um grad e: ok . professor c: yeah , and again , if you take this filtering perspective and if you essentially have it build up over time . i mean , if you computed means over two and then over four , and over six , essentially what you 're getting at is a kind of , uh , ramp up of a filter anyway . and so you may may just want to think of it as a filter . but , uh , if you do that , then , um , in practice somebody using the smartkom system , one would think { comment } if they 're using it for a while , it means that their first utterance , instead of , you know , getting , uh , a forty percent error rate reduction , they 'll get a uh , over what , uh , you 'd get without this , uh , um , policy , uh , you get thirty percent . and then the second utterance that you give , they get the full you know , uh , full benefit of it if it 's this ongoing thing . phd a: oh , so you you cache the utterances ? that 's how you get your , uh professor c: well , i 'm saying in practice , yeah , grad e: m phd a: ah . ok . professor c: that 's if somebody 's using a system to ask for directions or something , phd a: ok . professor c: you know , they 'll say something first . and and to begin with if it does n't get them quite right , ma m maybe they 'll come back and say , `` excuse me ? `` phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: uh , or some i mean it should have some policy like that anyway . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and and , uh , uh , in any event they might ask a second question . and it 's not like what he 's doing does n't , uh , improve things . it does improve things , just not as much as he would like . and so , uh , there 's a higher probability of it making an error , uh , in the first utterance . phd a: what would be really cool is if you could have uh , this probably users would never like this but if you had could have a system where , before they began to use it they had to introduce themselves , verbally . professor c: mm - hmm . phd a: you know . `` hi , my name is so - and - so , professor c: yeah . phd a: i 'm from blah - blah - blah . `` and you could use that initial speech to do all these adaptations and professor c: right . grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: oh , the other thing i guess which which , uh , i do n't know much about as much as i should about the rest of the system but but , um , could n't you , uh , if you if you sort of did a first pass i do n't know what kind of , uh , uh , capability we have at the moment for for doing second passes on on , uh , uh , some kind of little small lattice , or a graph , or confusion network , or something . but if you did first pass with , um , the with either without the mean sub subtraction or with a a very short time one , and then , um , once you , uh , actually had the whole utterance in , if you did , um , the , uh , uh , longer time version then , based on everything that you had , um , and then at that point only used it to distinguish between , you know , top n , um , possible utterances or something , you you might it might not take very much time . i mean , i know in the large vocabulary stu uh , uh , systems , people were evaluating on in the past , some people really pushed everything in to make it in one pass but other people did n't and had multiple passes . and , um , the argument , um , against multiple passes was u u has often been `` but we want to this to be r you know have a nice interactive response `` . and the counterargument to that which , say , uh , bbn i think had , { comment } was `` yeah , but our second responses are second , uh , passes and third passes are really , really fast `` . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: so , um , if if your second pass takes a millisecond who cares ? um . grad e: s so , um , the the idea of the second pass would be waiting till you have more recorded speech ? or ? professor c: yeah , so if it turned out to be a problem , that you did n't have enough speech because you need a longer longer window to do this processing , then , uh , one tactic is you know , looking at the larger system and not just at the front - end stuff { comment } is to take in , um , the speech with some simpler mechanism or shorter time mechanism , grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: um , do the best you can , and come up with some al possible alternates of what might have been said . and , uh , either in the form of an n - best list or in the form of a lattice , or or confusion network , or whatever . grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: and then the decoding of that is much , much faster or can be much , much faster if it is n't a big bushy network . and you can decode that now with speech that you 've actually processed using this longer time , uh , subtraction . grad e: mmm . professor c: so i mean , it 's it 's common that people do this sort of thing where they do more things that are more complex or require looking over more time , whatever , in some kind of second pass . grad e: mm - hmm . ok . professor c: um , and again , if the second pass is really , really fast uh , another one i 've heard of is is in in connected digit stuff , um , going back and l and through backtrace and finding regions that are considered to be a d a digit , but , uh , which have very low energy . grad e: mm - hmm . ok . professor c: so , uh i mean , there 's lots of things you can do in second passes , at all sorts of levels . anyway , i 'm throwing too many things out . but . phd a: so is that , uh that it ? grad e: i guess that 's it . phd a: ok , uh , do you wan na go , sunil ? phd b: yep . um , so , the last two weeks was , like so i 've been working on that wiener filtering . and , uh , found that , uh , s single like , i just do a s normal wiener filtering , like the standard method of wiener filtering . and that does n't actually give me any improvement over like i mean , uh , b it actually improves over the baseline but it 's not like it does n't meet something like fifty percent or something . so , i 've been playing with the v phd a: improves over the base line mfcc system ? yeah . phd b: yeah . yeah . yeah . so , um so that 's the improvement is somewhere around , like , thirty percent over the baseline . professor c: is that using in combination with something else ? phd b: no , just just one stage wiener filter professor c: with with a phd b: which is a standard wiener filter . professor c: no , no , but i mean in combination with our on - line normalization or with the lda ? phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . so i just plug in the wiener filtering . professor c: oh , ok . phd b: i mean , in the s in our system , where phd a: oh , ok . phd b: so , i di i di professor c: so , does it g does that mean it gets worse ? or ? phd b: no . it actually improves over the baseline of not having a wiener filter in the whole system . like i have an lda f lda plus on - line normalization , and then i plug in the wiener filter in that , professor c: yeah ? phd b: so it improves over not having the wiener filter . so it improves but it it does n't take it like be beyond like thirty percent over the baseline . so professor c: but that 's what i 'm confused about , cuz i think i thought that our system was more like forty percent without the wiener filtering . phd b: no , it 's like , uh , phd d: mmm . phd a: is this with the v new vad ? phd b: well , these are not no , it 's the old vad . so my baseline was , uh , nine this is like w the baseline is ninety - five point six eight , and eighty - nine , and professor c: so i mean , if you can do all these in word errors it 's a lot a lot easier actually . phd b: what was that ? sorry ? professor c: if you do all these in word error rates it 's a lot easier , right ? phd b: oh , ok , ok , ok . errors , right , i do n't have . professor c: ok , cuz then you can figure out the percentages . phd b: it 's all accuracies . professor c: yeah . phd d: the baseline is something similar to a w i mean , the t the the baseline that you are talking about is the mfcc baseline , right ? phd b: the t yeah , there are two baselines . phd d: or ? phd b: ok . so the baseline one baseline is mfcc baseline that when i said thirty percent improvement it 's like mfcc baseline . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so so so what 's it start on ? the mfcc baseline is is what ? is at what level ? phd b: it 's the it 's just the mel frequency and that 's it . professor c: no , what 's what 's the number ? phd b: uh , so i i do n't have that number here . ok , ok , ok , i have it here . uh , it 's the vad plus the baseline actually . i 'm talking about the the mfcc plus i do a frame dropping on it . so that 's like the word error rate is like four point three . like ten point seven . professor c: four point three . what 's ten point seven ? phd b: it 's a medium misma ok , sorry . there 's a well ma well matched , medium mismatched , and a high matched . professor c: ah . phd b: so i do n't have the like the professor c: yeah . phd b: so professor c: ok , four point three , ten point seven , phd b: and forty forty . professor c: and phd b: forty percent is the high mismatch . professor c: ok . phd b: and that becomes like four point three professor c: not changed . phd b: yeah , it 's like ten point one . still the same . and the high mismatch is like eighteen point five . professor c: eighteen point five . phd b: five . professor c: and what were you just describing ? phd b: oh , the one is this one is just the baseline plus the , uh , wiener filter plugged into it . professor c: but where 's the , uh , on - line normalization and so on ? phd b: oh , ok . so sorry . so , with the with the on - line normalization , the performance was , um , ten ok , so it 's like four point three . uh , and again , that 's the ba the ten point , uh , four and twenty point one . that was with on - line normalization and lda . so the h well matched has like literally not changed by adding on - line or lda on it . but the i mean , even the medium mismatch is pretty much the same . and the high mismatch was improved by twenty percent absolute . professor c: ok , and what kind of number an and what are we talking about here ? phd b: it 's the it - it 's italian . professor c: is this ti - digits phd b: i 'm talking about italian , professor c: or italian ? phd b: yeah . professor c: and what did so , what was the , um , uh , corresponding number , say , for , um , uh , the alcatel system for instance ? phd b: mmm . professor c: do you know ? phd d: yeah , so it looks to be , um phd b: you have it ? phd d: yep , it 's three point four , uh , eight point , uh , seven , and , uh , thirteen point seven . phd b: yep . professor c: ok . phd b: so thanks . professor c: ok . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: ok . phd b: so , uh , this is the single stage wiener filter , with the noise estimation was based on first ten frames . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: actually i started with using the vad to estimate the noise and then i found that it works it does n't work for finnish and spanish because the vad endpoints are not good to estimate the noise because it cuts into the speech sometimes , so i end up overestimating the noise and getting a worse result . so it works only for italian by u for using a vad to estimate noise . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: it works for italian because the vad was trained on italian . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: so , uh so this was , uh and so this was giving um , this this was like not improving a lot on this baseline of not having the wiener filter on it . and , so , uh , i ran this stuff with one more stage of wiener filtering on it but the second time , what i did was i estimated the new wiener filter based on the cleaned up speech , and did , uh , smoothing in the frequency to to reduce the variance professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean , i have i 've i 've observed there are , like , a lot of bumps in the frequency when i do this wiener filtering which is more like a musical noise or something . and so by adding another stage of wiener filtering , the results on the speechdat - car was like , um so , i still do n't have the word error rate . i 'm sorry about it . but the overall improvement was like fifty - six point four six . this was again using ten frames of noise estimate and two stage of wiener filtering . and the rest is like the lda plu and the on - line normalization all remaining the same . uh , so this was , like , compared to , uh , uh fifty - seven is what you got by using the french telecom system , right ? phd d: no , i do n't think so . phd b: y i phd d: is it on italian ? phd b: no , this is over the whole speechdat - car . so phd d: oh , yeah , fifty - seven phd b: point phd d: right . phd b: yeah , so the new the new wiener filtering schema is like some fifty - six point four six which is like one percent still less than what you got using the french telecom system . phd d: uh - huh . mm - hmm . professor c: but it 's a pretty similar number in any event . phd b: it 's very similar . professor c: yeah . but again , you 're you 're more or less doing what they were doing , right ? phd b: it 's it 's different in a sense like i 'm actually cleaning up the cleaned up spectrum which they 're not doing . they 're d what they 're doing is , they have two stage stages of estimating the wiener filter , but the final filter , what they do is they they take it to their time domain by doing an inverse fourier transform . professor c: yeah . phd b: and they filter the original signal using that fil filter , professor c: uh - huh . phd b: which is like final filter is acting on the input noisy speech rather than on the cleaned up . so this is more like i 'm doing wiener filter twice , but the only thing is that the second time i 'm actually smoothing the filter and then cleaning up the cleaned up spectrum first level . and so that that 's that 's what the difference is . professor c: ok . phd b: and actually i tried it on s the original clean i mean , the original spectrum where , like , i the second time i estimate the filter but actually clean up the noisy speech rather the c s first output of the first stage and that does n't seems to be a giving , i mean , that much improvement . i i didn did n't run it for the whole case . and and what i t what i tried was , by using the same thing but uh , so we actually found that the vad is very , like , crucial . i mean , just by changing the vad itself gives you the a lot of improvement professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: by instead of using the current vad , if you just take up the vad output from the channel zero , { comment } when instead of using channel zero and channel one , because that was the p that was the reason why i was not getting a lot of improvement for estimating { comment } the noise . so i just used the channel zero vad to estimate the noise so that it gives me some reliable mar markers for this noise estimation . professor c: what 's a channel zero vad ? phd b: um , professor c: i 'm i 'm confused about that . phd b: so , it 's like phd d: so it 's the close - talking microphone . phd b: yeah , the close - talking without professor c: oh , oh , oh , oh . phd b: so because the channel zero and channel one are like the same speech , but only w i mean , the same endpoints . professor c: phd b: but the only thing is that the speech is very noisy for channel one , so you can actually use the output of the channel zero for channel one for the vad . i mean , that 's like a cheating method . professor c: right . i mean , so a are they going to pro what are they doing to do , do we know yet ? about as far as what they 're what the rules are going to be and what we can use ? phd d: yeah , so actually i received a a new document , describing this . phd b: yeah , that 's phd d: and what they did finally is to , mmm , uh , not to align the utterances but to perform recognition , um , only on the close - talking microphone , phd b: which is the channel zero . phd d: and to take the result of the recognition to get the boundaries uh , of speech . professor c: so it 's not like that 's being done in one place or one time . phd d: and professor c: that 's that 's just a rule and we 'd you you were permitted to do that . is is that it ? phd d: uh , i think they will send , um , files but we we do n't well , apparently professor c: oh , so they will send files so everybody will have the same boundaries to work with ? phd d: yeah . yeah . phd b: but actually their alignment actually is not seems to be improving in like on all cases . professor c: ok . phd d: oh , i yeah , so what happened here is that , um , the overall improvement that they have with this method so well , to be more precise , what they have is , they have these alignments and then they drop the beginning silence and and the end silence but they keep , uh , two hundred milliseconds before speech and two hundred after speech . and they keep the speech pauses also . um , and the overall improvement over the mfcc baseline so , when they just , uh , add this frame dropping in addition it 's r uh , forty percent , right ? professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: fourteen percent , i mean . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah , which is phd d: um , which is , um , t which is the overall improvement . but in some cases it does n't improve at all . like , uh , y do you remember which case ? professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: it gives like negative well , in in like some italian and ti - digits , phd d: yeah , some @ @ . phd b: right ? phd d: right . phd b: yeah . so by using the endpointed speech , actually it 's worse than the baseline in some instances , which could be due to the word pattern . phd d: mmm . yeah . professor c: yeah , phd d: and yeah , the other thing also is that fourteen percent is less than what you obtain using a real vad . phd b: yeah , our neural net phd d: so with without cheating like this . phd b: yeah , yeah . phd d: so uh so i think this shows that there is still work uh , well , working on the vad is still still important i think . professor c: yeah , c phd d: uh phd a: can i ask just a a high level question ? can you just say like one or two sentences about wiener filtering and why why are people doing that ? phd b: hmm . phd a: what 's what 's the deal with that ? phd b: ok , so the wiener filter , it 's it 's like it 's like you try to minimize i mean , so the basic principle of wiener filter is like you try to minimize the , uh , d uh , difference between the noisy signal and the clean signal if you have two channels . like let 's say you have a clean t signal and you have an additional channel where you know what is the noisy signal . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: and then you try to minimize the error between these two . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: so that 's the basic principle . and you get you can do that i mean , if if you have only a c noisy signal , at a level which you , you w try to estimate the noise from the w assuming that the first few frames are noise or if you have a w voice activity detector , uh , you estimate the noise spectrum . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: and then you phd a: do you assume the noise is the same ? phd b: yeah . in yeah , after the speech starts . phd a: uh - huh . phd b: so but that 's not the case in , uh , many many of our cases but it works reasonably well . phd a: i see . phd b: and and then you what you do is you , uh b fff . so again , i can write down some of these eq oh , ok . yeah . and then you do this uh , this is the transfer function of the wiener filter , so `` sf `` is a clean speech spectrum , power spectrum phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: and `` n `` is the noisy power spectrum . and so this is the transfer function . professor c: right phd b: and , professor c: actually , i guess phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd b: and then you multiply your noisy power spectrum with this . you get an estimate of the clean power spectrum . phd a: i see . ok . phd b: so but the thing is that you have to estimate the sf from the noisy spectrum , what you have . so you estimate the nf from the initial noise portions and then you subtract that from the current noisy spectrum to get an estimate of the sf . so sometimes that becomes zero because you do you do n't have a true estimate of the noise . so the f filter will have like sometimes zeros in it phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: because some frequency values will be zeroed out because of that . and that creates a lot of discontinuities across the spectrum because @ @ the filter . so , uh , so that 's what that was just the first stage of wiener filtering that i tried . phd a: so is this , um , basically s uh , similar to just regular spectral subtraction ? phd b: it professor c: it 's all pretty related , phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah . it 's it 's there 's a di there 's a whole class of techniques where you try in some sense to minimize the noise . phd a: uh - huh . professor c: and it 's typically a mean square sense , uh uh uh , i in in in some way . and , uh uh , spectral subtraction is is , uh uh , one approach to it . phd a: do people use the wiener filtering in combination with the spectral subtraction typically , or is i are they sort of competing techniques ? phd b: not seen . they are very s similar techniques . phd a: yeah . o oh , ok . phd b: so it 's like i have n't seen anybody using s wiener filter with spectral subtraction . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: i see , i see . professor c: i mean , in the long run you 're doing the same thing phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . professor c: but y but there you make different approximations , and in spectral subtraction , for instance , there 's a a an estimation factor . phd a: mmm . professor c: you sometimes will figure out what the noise is and you 'll multiply that noise spectrum times some constant and subtract that rather than and sometimes people even though this really should be in the power domain , sometimes people s work in the magnitude domain because it it it works better . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and , uh , uh , you know . phd a: so why did you choose , uh , wiener filtering over some other one of these other techniques ? phd b: uh , the reason was , like , we had this choice of using spectral subtraction , wiener filtering , and there was one more thing which i which i 'm trying , is this sub space approach . so , stephane is working on spectral subtraction . phd a: oh , ok . phd b: so i picked up phd a: so you 're sort of trying @ @ them all . phd b: y yeah , phd a: ah , phd b: we just wanted to have a few noise production compensation techniques phd a: i see . oh , ok . phd b: and then pick some from that phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: pick one . professor c: i m i mean yeah , i mean , there 's car - carmen 's working on another , on the vector taylor series . phd b: va yeah , vad . w yeah . professor c: so they were just kind of trying to cover a bunch of different things with this task and see , you know , what are what are the issues for each of them . phd a: ah , ok . that makes sense . phd b: yeah . phd a: yeah . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: um . phd a: cool , thanks . phd b: so so one of one of the things that i tried , like i said , was to remove those zeros in the fri filter by doing some smoothing of the filter . professor c: yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: like , you estimate the edge of square and then you do a f smoothing across the frequency so that those zeros get , like , flattened out . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: and that does n't seems to be improving by trying it on the first time . so what i did was like i p did this and then you i plugged in the one more the same thing but with the smoothed filter the second time . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: and that seems to be working . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: so that 's where i got like fifty - six point five percent improvement on speechdat - car with that . and so the other thing what i tried was i used still the ten frames of noise estimate but i used this channel zero vad to drop the frames . so i 'm not still not estimating . and that has taken the performance to like sixty - seven percent in speechdat - car , which is which which like sort of shows that by using a proper vad you can just take it to further , better levels . and so . phd a: so that 's sort of like , you know , best - case performance ? phd b: yeah , so far i 've seen sixty - seven i mean , no , i have n't seen s like sixty - seven percent . and , uh , using the channel zero vad to estimate the noise also seems to be improving but i do n't have the results for all the cases with that . so i used channel zero vad to estimate noise as a lesser 2 x frame , which is like , everywhere i use the channel zero vad . and that seems to be the best combination , uh , rather than using a few frames to estimate and then drop a channel . professor c: so i 'm i 'm still a little confused . is that channel zero information going to be accessible during this test . phd b: nnn , no . this is just to test whether we can really improve by using a better vad . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: so , professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean so this is like the noise compensation f is fixed phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: but you make a better decision on the endpoints . that 's , like seems to be professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: so we c so i mean , which which means , like , by using this technique what we improve just the vad professor c: yes . phd b: we can just take the performance by another ten percent or better . professor c: ok . phd b: so , that that was just the , uh , reason for doing that experiment . and , w um yeah , but this all these things , i have to still try it on the ti - digits , which is like i 'm just running . and there seems to be not improving a a lot on the ti - digits , so i 'm like investigating that , why it 's not . and , um , um well after that . so , uh so the other the other thing is like i 've been i 'm doing all this stuff on the power spectrum . so tried this stuff on the mel as well mel and the magnitude , and mel magnitude , and all those things . but it seems to be the power spectrum seems to be getting the best result . so , one of one of reasons i thought like doing the averaging , after the filtering using the mel filter bank , that seems to be maybe helping rather than trying it on the mel filter ba filtered outputs . professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd b: so just th professor c: ma makes sense . phd b: yeah , th that 's that 's the only thing that i could think of why why it 's giving improvement on the mel . and , yep . so that 's it . professor c: uh , how about the subspace stuff ? phd b: subspace , { comment } i 'm i 'm like that 's still in a little bit in the back burner because i 've been p putting a lot effort on this to make it work , on tuning things and other stuff . professor c: ok . phd b: so i was like going parallely but not much of improvement . i 'm just have some skeletons ready , need some more time for it . professor c: ok . phd b: mmm . phd a: tha - that it ? phd b: yep . yep . phd a: cool . do you wan na go , stephane ? phd d: uh , yeah . so , i 've been , uh , working still on the spectral subtraction . um , so to r to remind you a little bit of of what i did before , is just to apply some spectral subtraction with an overestimation factor also to get , um , an estimate of the noise , uh , spectrum , and subtract this estimation of the noise spectrum from the , uh , signal spectrum , { comment } but subtracting more when the snr is is , uh , low , which is a technique that it 's often used . phd a: `` subtracting more `` , meaning ? phd d: so you overestimate the noise spectrum . you multiply the noise spectrum by a factor , uh , which depends on the snr . phd a: oh , ok . i see . phd d: so , above twenty db , it 's one , so you just subtract the noise . phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: and then it 's b generally well , i use , actually , a linear , uh , function of the snr , phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: which is bounded to , like , two or three , { comment } when the snr is below zero db . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: um , doing just this , uh , either on the fft bins or on the mel bands , um , t does n't yield any improvement professor c: oh ! um , uh , what are you doing with negative , uh , powers ? phd d: o yeah . so there is also a threshold , of course , because after subtraction you can have negative energies , phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: and so what i i just do is to put , uh to to add to put the threshold first and then to add a small amount of noise , which right now is speech - shaped . um phd a: speech - shaped ? phd d: yeah , so it 's a it has the overall overall energy , uh pow it has the overall power spectrum of speech . so with a bump around one kilohertz . phd a: so when y when you talk about there being something less than zero after subtracting the noise , is that at a particular frequency bin ? phd d: i uh - huh . yeah . phd a: ok . phd d: there can be frequency bins with negative values . phd a: and so when you say you 're adding something that has the overall shape of speech , is that in a in a particular frequency bin ? or you 're adding something across all the frequencies when you get these negatives ? phd d: for each frequencies i a i 'm adding some , uh , noise , but the a the amount of the amount of noise i add is not the same for all the frequency bins . phd a: ah ! ok . i gotcha . right . phd d: uh . right now i do n't think if it makes sense to add something that 's speech - shaped , because then you have silence portion that have some spectra similar to the sp the overall speech spectra . phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: but yeah . so this is something i can still work on , phd a: so what does that mean ? phd d: but hmm . phd a: i 'm trying to understand what it means when you do the spectral subtraction and you get a negative . it means that at that particular frequency range you subtracted more energy than there was actually phd d: that means that mm - hmm . yeah . so so yeah , you have an an estimation of the noise spectrum , but sometimes , of course , it 's as the noise is not perfectly stationary , sometimes this estimation can be , uh , too small , so you do n't subtract enough . but sometimes it can be too large also . if if the noise , uh , energy in this particular frequency band drops for some reason . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: mmm . phd a: so in in an ideal word i world { comment } if the noise were always the same , then , when you subtracted it the worst that i you would get would be a zero . i mean , the lowest you would get would be a zero , cuz i if there was no other energy there you 're just subtracting exactly the noise . professor c: right . phd d: mm - hmm , professor c: yep , there 's all there 's all sorts of , uh , deviations from the ideal here . phd d: yeah . professor c: i mean , for instance , you 're you 're talking about the signal and noise , um , at a particular point . and even if something is sort of stationary in ster terms of statistics , there 's no guarantee that any particular instantiation or piece of it is exactly a particular number or bounded by a particular range . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so , you 're figuring out from some chunk of of of the signal what you think the noise is . then you 're subtracting that from another chunk , phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and there 's absolutely no reason to think that you 'd know that it would n't , uh , be negative in some places . phd d: mm - hmm . hmm . professor c: uh , on the other hand that just means that in some sense you 've made a mistake because you certainly have stra subtracted a bigger number than is due to the noise . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: um also , we speak the whole where all this stuff comes from is from an assumption that signal and noise are uncorrelated . and that certainly makes sense in s in in a statistical interpretation , that , you know , over , um , all possible realizations that they 're uncorrelated phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: or assuming , uh , ergodicity that i that i um , across time , uh , it 's uncorrelated . but if you just look at a quarter second , uh , and you cross - multiply the two things , uh , you could very well , uh , end up with something that sums to something that 's not zero . so in fact , the two signals could have some relation to one another . and so there 's all sorts of deviations from ideal in this . and and given all that , you could definitely end up with something that 's negative . but if down the road you 're making use of something as if it is a power spectrum , um , then it can be bad to have something negative . now , the other thing i wonder about actually is , what if you left it negative ? what happens ? phd b: is that the log ? professor c: i mean , because um , are you taking the log before you add them up to the mel ? phd b: after that . no , after . professor c: right . so the thing is , i wonder how if you put your thresholds after that , i wonder how often you would end up with , uh with negative values . phd b: but you will but you end up reducing some neighboring frequency bins @ @ in the average , right ? when you add the negative to the positive value which is the true estimate . professor c: yeah . but nonetheless , uh , you know , these are it 's another f kind of smoothing , right ? that you 're doing . phd b: yeah . professor c: right . so , you 've done your best shot at figuring out what the noise should be , and now i then you 've subtracted it off . and then after that , instead of instead of , uh , uh , leaving it as is and adding things adding up some neighbors , you artificially push it up . phd b: hmm . professor c: which is , you know , it 's there 's no particular reason that that 's the right thing to do either , right ? phd b: yeah , yeah . professor c: so , um , uh , i in fact , what you 'd be doing is saying , `` well , we 're d we 're we 're going to definitely diminish the effect of this frequency in this little frequency bin in the in the overall mel summation `` . it 's just a thought . i d i do n't know if it would be phd a: sort of the opposite of that would be if if you find out you 're going to get a negative number , you do n't do the subtraction for that bin . phd b: yeah . uh - huh . that is true . professor c: nnn , yeah , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: although phd a: that would be almost the opposite , right ? instead of leaving it negative , you do n't do it . if your if your subtraction 's going to result in a negative number , you you do n't do subtraction in that . professor c: yeah , but that means that in a situation where you thought that that the bin was almost entirely noise , you left it . phd a: yeah . yeah , i 'm just saying that 's like the opposite . phd b: we just professor c: uh . phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd a: yeah . professor c: well , yeah that 's that 's the opposite , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah . phd d: and , yeah , some people also if it 's a negative value they , uh , re - compute it using inter interpolation from the edges and bins . phd b: for frames , frequency bins . professor c: yeah . phd d: well , there are different things that you can do . phd a: oh . professor c: people can also , uh , reflect it back up and essentially do a full wave rectification instead of a instead of half wave . phd a: oh . professor c: but it was just a thought that that it might be something to try . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . yep . well , actually i tried , something else based on this , um , is to to put some smoothing , um , because it seems to to help or it seems to help the wiener filtering professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and , mmm so what i did is , uh , some kind of nonlinear smoothing . actually i have a recursion that computes yeah , let me go back a little bit . actually , when you do spectral subtraction you can , uh , find this this equivalent in the s in the spectral domain . you can uh compute , y you can say that d your spectral subtraction is a filter , um , and the gain of this filter is the , um , signal energy minus what you subtract , divided by the signal energy . and this is a gain that varies over time , and , you know , of course , uh , depending on the s on the noise spectrum and on the speech spectrum . and what happen actually is that during low snr values , the gain is close to zero but it varies a lot . mmm , and this this is the cause of musical noise and all these the { comment } the fact you we go below zero one frame and then you can have an energy that 's above zero . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and mmm . so the smoothing is i did a smoothing actually on this gain , uh , trajectory . but it 's the smoothing is nonlinear in the sense that i tried to not smooth if the gain is high , because in this case we know that , uh , the estimate of the gain is correct because we we are not close to to to zero , um , and to do more smoothing if the gain is low . mmm . um . yeah . so , well , basically that 's this idea , and it seems to give pretty good results , uh , although i 've just just tested on italian and finnish . and on italian it seems my result seems to be a little bit better than the wiener filtering , phd b: mm - hmm . yeah , the one you showed yesterday . phd d: right ? phd b: right ? professor c: yeah . phd d: uh , i do n't know if you have these improvement the detailed improvements for italian , finnish , and spanish there phd b: fff . no , i do n't have , for each , phd d: or you have just have your own . phd b: i i just just have the final number here . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so these numbers he was giving before with the four point three , and the ten point one , and so forth , those were italian , right ? phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah . so so , no , professor c: yeah . phd d: uh phd b: i actually did n't give you the number which is the final one , phd d: uh , no , we 've phd b: which is , after two stages of wiener filtering . i mean , that was i just well , like the overall improvement is like fifty - six point five . so , professor c: right . phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean , his number is still better than what i got in the two stages of wiener filtering . phd d: yeah . professor c: right . phd d: on italian . but on finnish it 's a little bit worse , apparently . phd b: mm - hmm . phd d: um professor c: but do you have numbers in terms of word error rates on on italian ? so just so you have some sense of reference ? phd d: yeah . uh , so , it 's , uh , three point , uh , eight . professor c: uh - huh . phd d: am i right ? phd b: oh , ok . yeah , right , ok . phd d: and then , uh , d uh , nine point , uh , one . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and finally , uh , sixteen point five . professor c: and this is , um , spectral subtraction plus what ? phd d: plus plus nonlinear smoothing . well , it 's the system it 's exactly the sys the same system as sunil tried , professor c: on - line normalization and lda ? phd d: but professor c: yeah . yeah . phd d: yeah . but instead of double stage wiener filtering , it 's it 's this smoothed spectral subtraction . um , yeah . phd a: what is it the , um , france telecom system uses professor c: right . phd a: for do they use spectral subtraction , or wiener filtering , or ? phd b: they use spectral subtraction , right . phd d: for what ? phd b: french telecom . phd d: it it 's wiener filtering , phd b: oh , it 's it 's wiener filtering . phd d: am i right ? phd a: oh . phd b: sorry . phd d: well , it 's some kind of wiener filtering phd b: yeah , filtering . yeah , it 's not exactly wiener filtering but some variant of wiener filtering . phd d: yeah . phd a: i see . phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah , plus , uh , i guess they have some sort of cepstral normalization , as well . phd b: s they have like yeah , th the just noise compensation technique is a variant of wiener filtering , phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: plus they do some some smoothing techniques on the final filter . the th they actually do the filtering in the time domain . phd a: mmm . phd d: yeah . phd a: hmm . phd b: so they would take this hf squared back , taking inverse fourier transform . and they convolve the time domain signal with that . phd a: oh , i see . phd b: and they do some smoothing on that final filter , impulse response . phd a: hmm . phd d: but they also have two two different smoothing @ @ . phd b: i mean , i 'm i 'm @ @ . phd d: one in the time domain and one in the frequency domain by just taking the first , um , coefficients of the impulse response . phd b: but . phd d: so , basically it 's similar . i mean , what you did , it 's similar phd b: it 's similar in the smoothing and phd d: because you have also two two kind of smoothing . phd b: yeah . phd d: one in the time domain , and one in the frequency domain , phd b: yeah . the frequency domain . phd d: yeah . phd a: does the smoothing in the time domain help phd d: um phd a: well , do you get this musical noise stuff with wiener filtering or is that only with , uh , spectral subtraction ? phd b: no , you get it with wiener filtering also . phd d: yeah . phd a: does the smoothing in the time domain help with that ? or some other smoothing ? phd b: oh , no , you still end up with zeros in the s spectrum . sometimes . phd d: yeah . phd a: hmm . professor c: i mean , it 's not clear that these musical noises hurt us in recognition . phd a: hmm . professor c: we do n't know if they do . phd b: yeah . professor c: i mean , they they sound bad . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah , i know . professor c: but we 're not listening to it , usually . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: hmm . phd d: uh , actually the the smoothing that i did do here reduced the musical noise . well , it phd b: mm - hmm . yeah , yeah , phd d: mmm . phd b: the phd d: well , i can not you can not hear beca well , actually what i d did not say is that this is not in the fft bins . this is in the mel frequency bands . um so , it could be seen as a f a a smoothing in the frequency domain because i used , in ad mel bands in addition and then the other phase of smoothing in the time domain . mmm . but , when you look at the spectrogram , if you do n't have an any smoothing , you clearly see , like in silence portions , and at the beginning and end of speech , you see spots of high energy randomly distributed over the the spectrogram . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: um phd a: that 's the musical noise ? phd d: which is musical noise , phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah , if if it if you listen to it uh , if you do this in the fft bins , then you have spots of energy randomly distributing . and if you f if you re - synthesize these spot sounds as , like , sounds , phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: uh professor c: well , none of these systems , by the way , have i mean , y you both are are working with , um , our system that does not have the neural net , phd d: and phd b: yep . professor c: right ? phd b: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: ok . so one would hope , presumably , that the neural net part of it would would improve things further as as they did before . phd d: yeah . yeah . um yeah , although if if we , um , look at the result from the proposals , { comment } one of the reason , uh , the n system with the neural net was , um , more than well , around five percent better , is that it was much better on highly mismatched condition . i 'm thinking , for instance , on the ti - digits trained on clean speech and tested on noisy speech . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: uh , for this case , the system with the neural net was much better . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: but not much on the in the other cases . professor c: yeah . phd d: and if we have no , uh , spectral subtraction or wiener filtering , um , i the system is uh , we thought the neural neural network is much better than before , even in these cases of high mismatch . so , maybe the neural net will help less but , um professor c: maybe . phd a: could you train a neural net to do spectral subtraction ? professor c: yeah , it could do a nonlinear spectral subtraction phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: but i do n't know if it i mean , you have to figure out what your targets are . phd a: yeah , i was thinking if you had a clean version of the signal and and a noisy version , and your targets were the m f - uh , you know , whatever , frequency bins phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: right . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah , well , that 's not so much spectral subtraction then , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: but but but it 's but at any rate , yeah , people , uh phd a: people do that ? professor c: y yeah , in fact , we had visitors here who did that i think when you were here ba way back when . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: hmm . professor c: uh , people d done lots of experimentation over the years with training neural nets . and it 's not a bad thing to do . it 's another approach . phd a: hmm . professor c: m i mean , it 's it , um phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: the objection everyone always raises , which has some truth to it is that , um , it 's good for mapping from a particular noise to clean but then you get a different noise . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and the experiments we saw that visitors did here showed that it there was at least some , um , { comment } gentleness to the degradation when you switched to different noises . it did seem to help . so that you 're right , that 's another another way to go . phd a: how did it compare on i mean , for for good cases where it it uh , stuff that it was trained on ? did it do pretty well ? professor c: oh , yeah , it did very well . phd a: mmm . professor c: yeah . phd a: mmm . professor c: um , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: but to some extent that 's kind of what we 're doing . i mean , we 're not doing exactly that , we 're not trying to generate good examples but by trying to do the best classifier you possibly can , for these little phonetic categories , phd a: mm - hmm . you could say it 's sort of built in . professor c: it 's yeah , it 's kind of built into that . phd a: hmm . professor c: and and that 's why we have found that it it does help . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: um so , um , yeah , i mean , we 'll just have to try it . but i i would i would i would imagine that it will help some . i mean , it we 'll just have to see whether it helps more or less the same , but i would imagine it would help some . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so in any event , all of this i was just confirming that all of this was with a simpler system . phd d: yeah , professor c: ok ? phd d: yeah . um , yeah , so this is th the , um well , actually , this was kind of the first try with this spectral subtraction plus smoothing , professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and i was kind of excited by the result . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: um , then i started to optimize the different parameters . and , uh , the first thing i tried to optimize is the , um , time constant of the smoothing . and it seems that the one that i chose for the first experiment was the optimal one , so uh , professor c: it 's amazing how often that happens . phd d: um , so this is the first thing . um yeah , another thing that i it 's important to mention is , um , that this has a this has some additional latency . um . because when i do the smoothing , uh , it 's a recursion that estimated the means , so of the g of the gain curve . and this is a filter that has some latency . and i noticed that it 's better if we take into account this latency . so , instead o of using the current estimated mean to , uh , subtract the current frame , it 's better to use an estimate that 's some somewhere in the future . um phd a: and that 's what causes the latency ? ok . phd b: you mean , the m the mean is computed o based on some frames in the future also ? professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . phd b: or or no ? phd d: it 's the recursion , so it 's it 's the center recursion , right ? phd b: mm - hmm . phd d: um and the latency of this recursion is around fifty milliseconds . professor c: one five ? phd d: professor c: one five ? five zero ? phd d: five zero , professor c: five zero . phd d: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd d: um , phd b: i 'm sorry , phd d: mmm . phd b: why why is that delay coming ? like , you estimate the mean ? phd d: yeah , the mean estimation has some delay , right ? phd b: oh , yeah . phd d: i mean , the the filter that that estimates the mean has a time constant . phd b: it is n't ok , so it 's like it looks into the future also . ok . phd d: yeah . professor c: what if you just look into the past ? phd d: it 's , uh , not as good . it 's not bad . professor c: how m by how much ? phd d: um , it helps a lot over the ba the baseline but , mmm professor c: by how much ? phd d: it it 's around three percent , um , relative . professor c: worse . phd d: yeah . yeah . um , professor c: hmm . phd d: mmm so , uh professor c: it 's depending on how all this stuff comes out we may or may not be able to add any latency . phd d: yeah , but yeah . so , yeah , it depends . uh , y actually , it 's it 's l it 's three percent . right . mmm . yeah , b but i do n't think we have to worry too much on that right now while you kno . mm - hmm . professor c: um , s yeah , i mean , i think the only thing is that phd d: so professor c: i would worry about it a little . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: because if we completely ignore latency , and then we discover that we really have to do something about it , we 're going to be find ourselves in a bind . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so , um , you know , maybe you could make it twenty - five . you know what i mean ? phd d: yeah . professor c: yeah , just , you know , just be be a little conservative phd d: oh yes . professor c: because we may end up with this crunch where all of a sudden we have to cut the latency in half or something . phd d: s mm - hmm . yeah . professor c: ok . phd d: um . so , yeah , there are other things in the , um , algorithm that i did n't , uh , @ @ a lot yet , phd a: oh ! phd d: which phd a: sorry . a quick question just about the latency thing . if if there 's another part of the system that causes a latency of a hundred milliseconds , is this an additive thing ? or c or is yours hidden in that ? phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: uh phd d: no , it 's it 's added . phd a: it 's additive . ok . phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: we can ok . we can do something in parallel also , in some like some cases like , if you wanted to do voice activity detection . phd a: uh - huh . phd b: and we can do that in parallel with some other filtering you can do . phd d: mmm . phd b: so you can make a decision on that voice activity detection and then you decide whether you want to filter or not . phd d: yeah . phd b: but by then you already have the sufficient samples to do the filtering . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: so so , sometimes you can do it anyway . phd a: i mean , could n't , uh i could n't you just also i mean , i if you know that the l the largest latency in the system is two hundred milliseconds , do n't you could n't you just buffer up that number of frames and then everything uses that buffer ? phd b: yeah . phd a: and that way it 's not additive ? professor c: well , in fact , everything is sent over in buffers cuz of is n't it the tcp buffer some ? phd b: you mean , the the data , the super frame or something ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah , yeah . phd d: yeah . phd b: yeah , but that has a variable latency because the last frame does n't have any latency phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: and first frame has a twenty framed latency . so you ca n't r rely on that latency all the time . professor c: yeah . phd b: because i mean the transmission over over the air interface is like a buffer . phd d: yeah . phd b: twenty frame phd a: yeah . phd b: twenty four frames . phd a: yeah . phd b: so but the only thing is that the first frame in that twenty - four frame buffer has a twenty - four frame latency . and the last frame does n't have any latency . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: because it just goes as phd a: yeah , i was n't thinking of that one in particular phd b: yeah . phd a: but more of , you know , if if there is some part of your system that has to buffer twenty frames , uh , ca n't the other parts of the system draw out of that buffer and therefore not add to the latency ? professor c: yeah . yeah . and and that 's sort of one of the all of that sort of stuff is things that they 're debating in their standards committee . phd a: oh ! hmm . phd d: mm - hmm . yeah . so , um , there is uh , { comment } these parameters that i still have to to look at . like , i played a little bit with this overestimation factor , uh , but i still have to to look more at this , um , at the level of noise i add after . uh , i know that adding noise helped , um , the system just using spectral subtraction without smoothing , but i do n't know right now if it 's still important or not , and if the level i choose before is still the right one . same thing for the shape of the the noise . maybe it would be better to add just white noise instead of speech shaped noise . professor c: that 'd be more like the jrasta thing in a sense . yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . um , yep . uh , and another thing is to yeah , for this i just use as noise estimate the mean , uh , spectrum of the first twenty frames of each utterance . i do n't remember for this experiment what did you use for these two stage phd b: i used ten just ten frames . yeah , because phd d: the ten frames ? phd b: i mean , the reason was like in ti - digits i do n't have a lot . i had twenty frames most of the time . phd d: mm - hmm . um . but , so what 's this result you told me about , the fact that if you use more than ten frames you can improve by t phd b: well , that 's that 's using the channel zero . if i use a channel zero vad to estimate the noise . phd d: oh , ok . phd b: which phd d: but this is ten frames plus plus phd b: channel zero dropping . phd d: channel phd b: hmm . phd d: uh , no , these results with two stage wiener filtering is ten frames phd b: t oh , this phd d: but possibly more . i mean , if channel one vad gives you phd b: f yeah . mm - hmm . yeah . phd d: yeah . ok . yeah , but in this experiment i did i did n't use any vad . i just used the twenty first frame to estimate the noise . and so i expected it to be a little bit better , if , uh , i use more more frames . um . ok , that 's it for spectral subtraction . the second thing i was working on is to , um , try to look at noise estimation , { comment } mmm , and using some technique that does n't need voice activity detection . um , and for this i u simply used some code that , uh , i had from from belgium , which is technique that , um , takes a bunch of frame , um , and for each frequency bands of this frame , takes a look at the minima of the energy . and then average these minima and take this as an an energy estimate of the noise for this particular frequency band . and there is something more to this actually . what is done is that , uh , these minima are computed , um , based on , um , high resolution spectra . so , i compute an fft based on the long , uh , signal frame which is sixty - four millisecond phd a: so you have one minimum for each frequency ? phd d: what what i what i d uh , i do actually , is to take a bunch of to take a tile on the spectrogram and this tile is five hundred milliseconds long and two hundred hertz wide . phd a: mmm . phd d: and this tile uh , in this tile appears , like , the harmonics if you have a voiced sound , because it 's it 's the ftt bins . and when you take the m the minima of of these this tile , when you do n't have speech , these minima will give you some noise level estimate , if you have voiced speech , these minima will still give you some noise estimate because the minima are between the harmonics . and if you have other other kind of speech sounds then it 's not the case , but if the time frame is long enough , uh , like s five hundred milliseconds seems to be long enough , { comment } you still have portions which , uh , are very close whi which minima are very close to the noise energy . professor c: i 'm confused . you said five hundred milliseconds phd d: mmm ? professor c: but you said sixty - four milliseconds . which is which ? what ? phd d: sixty - four milliseconds is to compute the fft , uh , bins . professor c: yeah , phd d: the the fft . professor c: yeah . phd d: um , actually it 's better to use sixty - four milliseconds because , um , if you use thirty milliseconds , then , uh , because of the this short windowing and at low pitch , uh , sounds , the harmonics are not , wha uh , correctly separated . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: so if you take these minima , it b they will overestimate the noise a lot . professor c: so you take sixty - four millisecond f f ts and then you average them { comment } over five hundred ? or ? uh , what do you do over five hundred ? phd d: so i take to i take a bunch of these sixty - four millisecond frame to cover five hundred milliseconds , professor c: ah . ok . phd d: and then i look for the minima , phd a: mmm . professor c: i see . phd d: on the on on the bunch of uh fifty frames , right ? professor c: i see . phd d: mmm . so the interest of this is that , as y with this technique you can estimate u some reasonable noise spectra with only five hundred milliseconds of of signal , so if the the n the noise varies a lot , uh , you can track better track the noise , professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: which is not the case if you rely on the voice activity detector . so even if there are no no speech pauses , you can track the noise level . the only requirement is that you must have , in these five hundred milliseconds segment , { comment } you must have voiced sound at least . cuz this these will help you to to track the the noise level . um . so what i did is just to simply replace the vad - based , uh , noise estimate by this estimate , first on speechdat - car well , only on speechdat - car actually . and it 's , uh , slightly worse , like one percent relative compared to the vad - based estimates . um , i think the reason why it 's not better , is that the speechdat - car noises are all stationary . um . so , u y y there really is no need to have something that 's adaptive professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and uh , well , they are mainly stationary . um . but , i expect s maybe some improvement on ti - digits because , nnn , in this case the noises are all sometimes very variable . uh , so i have to test it . mmm . professor c: but are you comparing with something e i 'm i 'm p s a little confused again , i it uh , when you compare it with the v a d - based , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: vad - is this is this the ? phd d: it 's it 's the france - telecom - based spectra , s uh , wiener filtering and vad . so it 's their system but just i replace their noise estimate by this one . professor c: oh , you 're not doing this with our system ? phd d: in i i 'm not no , no . yeah , it 's our system but with just the wiener filtering from their system . right ? mmm . professor c: ok . phd d: yeah . actually , th the best system that we still have is , uh , our system but with their noise compensation scheme , right ? professor c: right . but phd d: so i 'm trying to improve on this , and by by replacing their noise estimate by , uh , something that might be better . professor c: ok . but the spectral subtraction scheme that you reported on also re requires a a noise estimate . phd d: yeah . yeah . professor c: could n't you try this for that ? phd d: but i di professor c: do you think it might help ? phd d: not yet , because i did this in parallel , professor c: i see , phd d: and i was working on one and the other . professor c: i see . yeah . phd d: um , phd b: yeah . phd d: yeah , for for sure i will . i can try also , mmm , the spectral subtraction . phd b: so i 'm also using that n new noise estimate technique on this wiener filtering what i 'm trying . professor c: ok . phd b: so i i have , like , some experiments running , i do n't have the results . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah . phd b: so . professor c: yeah . phd b: i do n't estimate the f noise on the ten frames but use his estimate . professor c: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . um . yeah . i , um , also implemented a sp um spectral whitening idea which is in the , um , ericsson proposal . uh , the idea is just to um , flatten the log , uh , spectrum , um , and to flatten it more if the the probability of silence is higher . so in this way , you can also reduce somewhat reduce the musical noise and you reduce the variability if you have different noise shapes , because the the spectrum becomes more flat in the silence portions . um . yeah . with this , no improvement , uh , but there are a lot of parameters that we can play with and , um actually , this this could be seen as a soft version of the frame dropping because , um , you could just put the threshold and say that `` below the threshold , i will flatten comp completely flatten the the spectrum `` . and above this threshold , uh , keep the same spectrum . so it would be like frame dropping , because during the silence portions which are below the threshold of voice activity probability , { comment } uh , w you would have some kind of dummy frame which is a perfectly flat spectrum . and this , uh , whitening is something that 's more soft because , um , you whiten you just , uh , have a function the whitening is a function of the speech probability , so it 's not a hard decision . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: um , so i think maybe it can be used together with frame dropping and when we are not sure about if it 's speech or silence , well , maybe it has something do with this . professor c: it 's interesting . i mean , um , you know , in in jrasta we were essentially adding in , uh , white uh , white noise dependent on our estimate of the noise . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: on the overall estimate of the noise . uh , i think it never occurred to us to use a probability in there . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: you could imagine one that that that made use of where where the amount that you added in was , uh , a function of the probability of it being s speech or noise . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . yeah , w yeah , right now it 's a constant that just depending on the the noise spectrum . phd b: there 's professor c: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: cuz that that brings in sort of powers of classifiers that we do n't really have in , uh , this other estimate . so it could be it could be interesting . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: what what what point does the , uh , system stop recording ? how much phd a: it 'll keep going till i guess when they run out of disk space , professor c: it went a little long ? i mean , disk phd a: but i think we 're ok . phd d: so . professor c: ok . phd d: yeah . uh yeah , so there are with this technique there are some i just did something exactly the same as as the ericsson proposal but , um , the probability of speech is not computed the same way . and i think , i for yeah , for a lot of things , actually a g a good speech probability is important . like for frame dropping you improve , like you can improve from ten percent as sunil showed , if you use the channel zero speech probabilities . professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: for this it might help , um professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: s so , yeah . uh , so yeah , the next thing i started to do is to , uh , try to develop a better voice activity detector . and , um i d um yeah , for this i think we can maybe try to train the neural network for voice activity detection on all the data that we have , including all the speechdat - car data . um and so i 'm starting to obtain alignments on these databases . um , and the way i mi i do that is that i just use the htk system but i train it only on the close - talking microphone . and then i aligned i obtained the viterbi alignment of the training utterances . um it seems to be , uh i actually what i observed is that for italian it does n't seem th - there seems to be a problem . phd b: no . so , it does n't seems to help by their use of channel zero or channel one . phd d: well . because what ? phd b: uh , you mean their d the frame dropping , right ? yeah , it does n't phd d: yeah . yeah . so , u but actually the vad was trained on italian also , phd b: italian . phd d: so um , the c the current vad that we have was trained on , uh , t spine , right ? phd b: ti - digits . phd d: italian , and ti - digits with noise and phd b: phd d: uh , yeah . and it seems to work on italian but not on the finnish and spanish data . so , maybe one reason is that s s finnish and spanish noise are different . and actually we observed we listened to some of the utterances and sometimes for finnish there is music in the recordings and strange things , right ? phd b: yeah . phd d: um yeah , so the idea was to train all the databases and obtain an alignment to train on these databases , and , um , also to , um , try different kind of features , uh , as input to the vad network . and we came up with a bunch of features that we want to try like , um , the spectral slope , the , um , the degree o degree of voicing with the features that , uh , we started to develop with carmen , um , e with , uh , the correlation between bands and different kind of features , phd b: yeah . mm - hmm . phd d: and yeah . phd b: the energy also . phd d: the energy . phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah , right . phd d: yeah . of course . yeah . professor c: ok . well , hans - guenter will be here next week so i think he 'll be interested in all all of these things . and , so . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: mmm . phd a: ok , shall we , uh , do digits ? professor c: yeah . phd a: want to go ahead , morgan ? professor c: sure . phd a: ok .

grad e thought that the idea of doing mean log magnitude spectral subtraction was figuring out the effect of training time on the model performance . it seemed that longer times had diminishing returns after a certain point .

summarize the discussion on latency in the system </s> phd a: ok , we 're going . phd d: damn . professor c: and uh hans - uh , hans - guenter will be here , um , i think by next next tuesday or so . phd b: oh , ok . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so he 's he 's going to be here for about three weeks , phd b: oh ! that 's nice . phd a: just for a visit ? professor c: and , uh uh , we 'll see . phd a: huh . professor c: we might might end up with some longer collaboration or something . phd a: cool . professor c: so he 's gon na look in on everything we 're doing phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: and give us his his thoughts . and so it 'll be another another good person looking at things . phd b: oh . hmm . grad e: th - that 's his spectral subtraction group ? professor c: yeah , grad e: is that right ? professor c: yeah . grad e: oh , ok . so i guess i should probably talk to him a bit too ? professor c: oh , yeah . yeah . yeah . no , he 'll be around for three weeks . he 's , uh , um , very , very , easygoing , easy to talk to , and , uh , very interested in everything . phd a: really nice guy . professor c: yeah , yeah . phd b: yeah , we met him in amsterdam . professor c: yeah , yeah , he 's been here before . phd b: oh , ok . professor c: i mean , he 's he 's he 's he 's phd a: wh - back when i was a grad student he was here for a , uh , uh a year or { comment } n six months . phd b: i have n't noticed him . professor c: n nine months . phd a: something like that . professor c: something like that . phd a: yeah . professor c: yeah . yeah . he 's he 's done a couple stays here . phd b: hmm . professor c: yeah . phd a: so , um , { comment } i guess we got lots to catch up on . and we have n't met for a couple of weeks . we did n't meet last week , morgan . um , i went around and talked to everybody , and it seemed like they they had some new results but rather than them coming up and telling me i figured we should just wait a week and they can tell both you know , all of us . so , um , why do n't we why do n't we start with you , dave , and then , um , we can go on . grad e: oh , ok . phd a: so . grad e: so , um , since we 're looking at putting this , um mean log m magnitude spectral subtraction , um , into the smartkom system , i i did a test seeing if , um , it would work using past only { comment } and plus the present to calculate the mean . so , i did a test , um , where i used twelve seconds from the past and the present frame to , um , calculate the mean . and phd a: twelve seconds twelve twelve seconds back from the current frame , is that what you mean ? grad e: uh twelve seconds , um , counting back from the end of the current frame , phd a: ok , ok . grad e: yeah . so it was , um , twen i think it was twenty - one frames and that worked out to about twelve seconds . phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: and compared to , um , do using a twelve second centered window , i think there was a drop in performance but it was just a slight drop . phd a: hmm ! professor c: mm - hmm . grad e: is is that right ? professor c: um , yeah , i mean , it was pretty it was pretty tiny . yeah . grad e: uh - huh . so that was encouraging . and , um , that that um , that 's encouraging for for the idea of using it in an interactive system like and , um , another issue i 'm i 'm thinking about is in the smartkom system . so say twe twelve seconds in the earlier test seemed like a good length of time , but what happens if you have less than twelve seconds ? and , um so i w bef before , um back in may , i did some experiments using , say , two seconds , or four seconds , or six seconds . in those i trained the models using mean subtraction with the means calculated over two seconds , or four seconds , or six seconds . and , um , here , i was curious , what if i trained the models using twelve seconds but i f i gave it a situation where the test set i was subtracted using two seconds , or four seconds , or six seconds . and , um so i did that for about three different conditions . and , um i mean , i th i think it was , um , four se i think i think it was , um , something like four seconds and , um , six seconds , and eight seconds . something like that . and it seems like it it it hurts compared to if you actually train the models { comment } using th that same length of time but it it does n't hurt that much . um , u usually less than point five percent , although i think i did see one where it was a point eight percent or so rise in word error rate . but this is , um , w where , um , even if i train on the , uh , model , and mean subtracted it with the same length of time as in the test , it the word error rate is around , um , ten percent or nine percent . so it does n't seem like that big a d a difference . professor c: but it but looking at it the other way , is n't it what you 're saying that it did n't help you to have the longer time for training , if you were going to have a short time for grad e: that that 's true . um , professor c: i mean , why would you do it , if you knew that you were going to have short windows in testing . grad e: wa phd a: yeah , it seems like for your i mean , in normal situations you would never get twelve seconds of speech , right ? i 'm not e u phd b: you need twelve seconds in the past to estimate , right ? or l or you 're looking at six sec seconds in future and six in professor c: yeah . grad e: um , t twelve s professor c: no , total . grad e: n n uh for the test it 's just twelve seconds in the past . phd b: no , it 's all oh , ok . phd a: is this twelve seconds of uh , regardless of speech or silence ? or twelve seconds of speech ? grad e: of of speech . phd a: ok . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: the other thing , um , which maybe relates a little bit to something else we 've talked about in terms of windowing and so on is , that , um , i wonder if you trained with twelve seconds , and then when you were two seconds in you used two seconds , and when you were four seconds in , you used four seconds , and when you were six and you basically build up to the twelve seconds . so that if you have very long utterances you have the best , grad e: yeah . professor c: but if you have shorter utterances you use what you can . grad e: right . and that 's actually what we 're planning to do in professor c: ok . yeah . grad e: but s so i g so i guess the que the question i was trying to get at with those experiments is , `` does it matter what models you use ? does it matter how much time y you use to calculate the mean when you were , um , tra doing the training data ? `` professor c: right . but i mean the other thing is that that 's i mean , the other way of looking at this , going back to , uh , mean cepstral subtraction versus rasta kind of things , is that you could look at mean cepstral subtraction , especially the way you 're doing it , uh , as being a kind of filter . and so , the other thing is just to design a filter . you know , basically you 're you 're you 're doing a high - pass filter or a band - pass filter of some sort and and just design a filter . and then , you know , a filter will have a certain behavior and you loo can look at the start up behavior when you start up with nothing . grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: and and , you know , it will , uh , if you have an iir filter for instance , it will , um , uh , not behave in the steady - state way that you would like it to behave until you get a long enough period , but , um , uh , by just constraining yourself to have your filter be only a subtraction of the mean , you 're kind of , you know , tying your hands behind your back because there 's filters have all sorts of be temporal and spectral behaviors . grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: and the only thing , you know , consistent that we know about is that you want to get rid of the very low frequency component . grad e: hmm . phd b: but do you really want to calculate the mean ? and you neglect all the silence regions { comment } or you just use everything that 's twelve seconds , and grad e: um , you do you mean in my tests so far ? phd b: ye - yeah . grad e: most of the silence has been cut out . phd b: ok . grad e: just there 's just inter - word silences . phd b: mm - hmm . and they are , like , pretty short . shor grad e: pretty short . phd b: yeah , ok . grad e: yeah . phd b: yeah . mm - hmm . so you really need a lot of speech to estimate the mean of it . grad e: well , if i only use six seconds , it still works pretty well . phd b: yeah . yeah . uh - huh . grad e: i saw in my test before . i was trying twelve seconds cuz that was the best in my test before phd b: ok . grad e: and that increasing past twelve seconds did n't seem to help . phd b: hmm . huh . grad e: th um , yeah , i guess it 's something i need to play with more to decide how to set that up for the smartkom system . like , may maybe if i trained on six seconds it would work better when i only had two seconds or four seconds , and professor c: yeah . yeah . and , um grad e: ok . professor c: yeah , and again , if you take this filtering perspective and if you essentially have it build up over time . i mean , if you computed means over two and then over four , and over six , essentially what you 're getting at is a kind of , uh , ramp up of a filter anyway . and so you may may just want to think of it as a filter . but , uh , if you do that , then , um , in practice somebody using the smartkom system , one would think { comment } if they 're using it for a while , it means that their first utterance , instead of , you know , getting , uh , a forty percent error rate reduction , they 'll get a uh , over what , uh , you 'd get without this , uh , um , policy , uh , you get thirty percent . and then the second utterance that you give , they get the full you know , uh , full benefit of it if it 's this ongoing thing . phd a: oh , so you you cache the utterances ? that 's how you get your , uh professor c: well , i 'm saying in practice , yeah , grad e: m phd a: ah . ok . professor c: that 's if somebody 's using a system to ask for directions or something , phd a: ok . professor c: you know , they 'll say something first . and and to begin with if it does n't get them quite right , ma m maybe they 'll come back and say , `` excuse me ? `` phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: uh , or some i mean it should have some policy like that anyway . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and and , uh , uh , in any event they might ask a second question . and it 's not like what he 's doing does n't , uh , improve things . it does improve things , just not as much as he would like . and so , uh , there 's a higher probability of it making an error , uh , in the first utterance . phd a: what would be really cool is if you could have uh , this probably users would never like this but if you had could have a system where , before they began to use it they had to introduce themselves , verbally . professor c: mm - hmm . phd a: you know . `` hi , my name is so - and - so , professor c: yeah . phd a: i 'm from blah - blah - blah . `` and you could use that initial speech to do all these adaptations and professor c: right . grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: oh , the other thing i guess which which , uh , i do n't know much about as much as i should about the rest of the system but but , um , could n't you , uh , if you if you sort of did a first pass i do n't know what kind of , uh , uh , capability we have at the moment for for doing second passes on on , uh , uh , some kind of little small lattice , or a graph , or confusion network , or something . but if you did first pass with , um , the with either without the mean sub subtraction or with a a very short time one , and then , um , once you , uh , actually had the whole utterance in , if you did , um , the , uh , uh , longer time version then , based on everything that you had , um , and then at that point only used it to distinguish between , you know , top n , um , possible utterances or something , you you might it might not take very much time . i mean , i know in the large vocabulary stu uh , uh , systems , people were evaluating on in the past , some people really pushed everything in to make it in one pass but other people did n't and had multiple passes . and , um , the argument , um , against multiple passes was u u has often been `` but we want to this to be r you know have a nice interactive response `` . and the counterargument to that which , say , uh , bbn i think had , { comment } was `` yeah , but our second responses are second , uh , passes and third passes are really , really fast `` . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: so , um , if if your second pass takes a millisecond who cares ? um . grad e: s so , um , the the idea of the second pass would be waiting till you have more recorded speech ? or ? professor c: yeah , so if it turned out to be a problem , that you did n't have enough speech because you need a longer longer window to do this processing , then , uh , one tactic is you know , looking at the larger system and not just at the front - end stuff { comment } is to take in , um , the speech with some simpler mechanism or shorter time mechanism , grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: um , do the best you can , and come up with some al possible alternates of what might have been said . and , uh , either in the form of an n - best list or in the form of a lattice , or or confusion network , or whatever . grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: and then the decoding of that is much , much faster or can be much , much faster if it is n't a big bushy network . and you can decode that now with speech that you 've actually processed using this longer time , uh , subtraction . grad e: mmm . professor c: so i mean , it 's it 's common that people do this sort of thing where they do more things that are more complex or require looking over more time , whatever , in some kind of second pass . grad e: mm - hmm . ok . professor c: um , and again , if the second pass is really , really fast uh , another one i 've heard of is is in in connected digit stuff , um , going back and l and through backtrace and finding regions that are considered to be a d a digit , but , uh , which have very low energy . grad e: mm - hmm . ok . professor c: so , uh i mean , there 's lots of things you can do in second passes , at all sorts of levels . anyway , i 'm throwing too many things out . but . phd a: so is that , uh that it ? grad e: i guess that 's it . phd a: ok , uh , do you wan na go , sunil ? phd b: yep . um , so , the last two weeks was , like so i 've been working on that wiener filtering . and , uh , found that , uh , s single like , i just do a s normal wiener filtering , like the standard method of wiener filtering . and that does n't actually give me any improvement over like i mean , uh , b it actually improves over the baseline but it 's not like it does n't meet something like fifty percent or something . so , i 've been playing with the v phd a: improves over the base line mfcc system ? yeah . phd b: yeah . yeah . yeah . so , um so that 's the improvement is somewhere around , like , thirty percent over the baseline . professor c: is that using in combination with something else ? phd b: no , just just one stage wiener filter professor c: with with a phd b: which is a standard wiener filter . professor c: no , no , but i mean in combination with our on - line normalization or with the lda ? phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . so i just plug in the wiener filtering . professor c: oh , ok . phd b: i mean , in the s in our system , where phd a: oh , ok . phd b: so , i di i di professor c: so , does it g does that mean it gets worse ? or ? phd b: no . it actually improves over the baseline of not having a wiener filter in the whole system . like i have an lda f lda plus on - line normalization , and then i plug in the wiener filter in that , professor c: yeah ? phd b: so it improves over not having the wiener filter . so it improves but it it does n't take it like be beyond like thirty percent over the baseline . so professor c: but that 's what i 'm confused about , cuz i think i thought that our system was more like forty percent without the wiener filtering . phd b: no , it 's like , uh , phd d: mmm . phd a: is this with the v new vad ? phd b: well , these are not no , it 's the old vad . so my baseline was , uh , nine this is like w the baseline is ninety - five point six eight , and eighty - nine , and professor c: so i mean , if you can do all these in word errors it 's a lot a lot easier actually . phd b: what was that ? sorry ? professor c: if you do all these in word error rates it 's a lot easier , right ? phd b: oh , ok , ok , ok . errors , right , i do n't have . professor c: ok , cuz then you can figure out the percentages . phd b: it 's all accuracies . professor c: yeah . phd d: the baseline is something similar to a w i mean , the t the the baseline that you are talking about is the mfcc baseline , right ? phd b: the t yeah , there are two baselines . phd d: or ? phd b: ok . so the baseline one baseline is mfcc baseline that when i said thirty percent improvement it 's like mfcc baseline . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so so so what 's it start on ? the mfcc baseline is is what ? is at what level ? phd b: it 's the it 's just the mel frequency and that 's it . professor c: no , what 's what 's the number ? phd b: uh , so i i do n't have that number here . ok , ok , ok , i have it here . uh , it 's the vad plus the baseline actually . i 'm talking about the the mfcc plus i do a frame dropping on it . so that 's like the word error rate is like four point three . like ten point seven . professor c: four point three . what 's ten point seven ? phd b: it 's a medium misma ok , sorry . there 's a well ma well matched , medium mismatched , and a high matched . professor c: ah . phd b: so i do n't have the like the professor c: yeah . phd b: so professor c: ok , four point three , ten point seven , phd b: and forty forty . professor c: and phd b: forty percent is the high mismatch . professor c: ok . phd b: and that becomes like four point three professor c: not changed . phd b: yeah , it 's like ten point one . still the same . and the high mismatch is like eighteen point five . professor c: eighteen point five . phd b: five . professor c: and what were you just describing ? phd b: oh , the one is this one is just the baseline plus the , uh , wiener filter plugged into it . professor c: but where 's the , uh , on - line normalization and so on ? phd b: oh , ok . so sorry . so , with the with the on - line normalization , the performance was , um , ten ok , so it 's like four point three . uh , and again , that 's the ba the ten point , uh , four and twenty point one . that was with on - line normalization and lda . so the h well matched has like literally not changed by adding on - line or lda on it . but the i mean , even the medium mismatch is pretty much the same . and the high mismatch was improved by twenty percent absolute . professor c: ok , and what kind of number an and what are we talking about here ? phd b: it 's the it - it 's italian . professor c: is this ti - digits phd b: i 'm talking about italian , professor c: or italian ? phd b: yeah . professor c: and what did so , what was the , um , uh , corresponding number , say , for , um , uh , the alcatel system for instance ? phd b: mmm . professor c: do you know ? phd d: yeah , so it looks to be , um phd b: you have it ? phd d: yep , it 's three point four , uh , eight point , uh , seven , and , uh , thirteen point seven . phd b: yep . professor c: ok . phd b: so thanks . professor c: ok . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: ok . phd b: so , uh , this is the single stage wiener filter , with the noise estimation was based on first ten frames . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: actually i started with using the vad to estimate the noise and then i found that it works it does n't work for finnish and spanish because the vad endpoints are not good to estimate the noise because it cuts into the speech sometimes , so i end up overestimating the noise and getting a worse result . so it works only for italian by u for using a vad to estimate noise . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: it works for italian because the vad was trained on italian . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: so , uh so this was , uh and so this was giving um , this this was like not improving a lot on this baseline of not having the wiener filter on it . and , so , uh , i ran this stuff with one more stage of wiener filtering on it but the second time , what i did was i estimated the new wiener filter based on the cleaned up speech , and did , uh , smoothing in the frequency to to reduce the variance professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean , i have i 've i 've observed there are , like , a lot of bumps in the frequency when i do this wiener filtering which is more like a musical noise or something . and so by adding another stage of wiener filtering , the results on the speechdat - car was like , um so , i still do n't have the word error rate . i 'm sorry about it . but the overall improvement was like fifty - six point four six . this was again using ten frames of noise estimate and two stage of wiener filtering . and the rest is like the lda plu and the on - line normalization all remaining the same . uh , so this was , like , compared to , uh , uh fifty - seven is what you got by using the french telecom system , right ? phd d: no , i do n't think so . phd b: y i phd d: is it on italian ? phd b: no , this is over the whole speechdat - car . so phd d: oh , yeah , fifty - seven phd b: point phd d: right . phd b: yeah , so the new the new wiener filtering schema is like some fifty - six point four six which is like one percent still less than what you got using the french telecom system . phd d: uh - huh . mm - hmm . professor c: but it 's a pretty similar number in any event . phd b: it 's very similar . professor c: yeah . but again , you 're you 're more or less doing what they were doing , right ? phd b: it 's it 's different in a sense like i 'm actually cleaning up the cleaned up spectrum which they 're not doing . they 're d what they 're doing is , they have two stage stages of estimating the wiener filter , but the final filter , what they do is they they take it to their time domain by doing an inverse fourier transform . professor c: yeah . phd b: and they filter the original signal using that fil filter , professor c: uh - huh . phd b: which is like final filter is acting on the input noisy speech rather than on the cleaned up . so this is more like i 'm doing wiener filter twice , but the only thing is that the second time i 'm actually smoothing the filter and then cleaning up the cleaned up spectrum first level . and so that that 's that 's what the difference is . professor c: ok . phd b: and actually i tried it on s the original clean i mean , the original spectrum where , like , i the second time i estimate the filter but actually clean up the noisy speech rather the c s first output of the first stage and that does n't seems to be a giving , i mean , that much improvement . i i didn did n't run it for the whole case . and and what i t what i tried was , by using the same thing but uh , so we actually found that the vad is very , like , crucial . i mean , just by changing the vad itself gives you the a lot of improvement professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: by instead of using the current vad , if you just take up the vad output from the channel zero , { comment } when instead of using channel zero and channel one , because that was the p that was the reason why i was not getting a lot of improvement for estimating { comment } the noise . so i just used the channel zero vad to estimate the noise so that it gives me some reliable mar markers for this noise estimation . professor c: what 's a channel zero vad ? phd b: um , professor c: i 'm i 'm confused about that . phd b: so , it 's like phd d: so it 's the close - talking microphone . phd b: yeah , the close - talking without professor c: oh , oh , oh , oh . phd b: so because the channel zero and channel one are like the same speech , but only w i mean , the same endpoints . professor c: phd b: but the only thing is that the speech is very noisy for channel one , so you can actually use the output of the channel zero for channel one for the vad . i mean , that 's like a cheating method . professor c: right . i mean , so a are they going to pro what are they doing to do , do we know yet ? about as far as what they 're what the rules are going to be and what we can use ? phd d: yeah , so actually i received a a new document , describing this . phd b: yeah , that 's phd d: and what they did finally is to , mmm , uh , not to align the utterances but to perform recognition , um , only on the close - talking microphone , phd b: which is the channel zero . phd d: and to take the result of the recognition to get the boundaries uh , of speech . professor c: so it 's not like that 's being done in one place or one time . phd d: and professor c: that 's that 's just a rule and we 'd you you were permitted to do that . is is that it ? phd d: uh , i think they will send , um , files but we we do n't well , apparently professor c: oh , so they will send files so everybody will have the same boundaries to work with ? phd d: yeah . yeah . phd b: but actually their alignment actually is not seems to be improving in like on all cases . professor c: ok . phd d: oh , i yeah , so what happened here is that , um , the overall improvement that they have with this method so well , to be more precise , what they have is , they have these alignments and then they drop the beginning silence and and the end silence but they keep , uh , two hundred milliseconds before speech and two hundred after speech . and they keep the speech pauses also . um , and the overall improvement over the mfcc baseline so , when they just , uh , add this frame dropping in addition it 's r uh , forty percent , right ? professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: fourteen percent , i mean . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah , which is phd d: um , which is , um , t which is the overall improvement . but in some cases it does n't improve at all . like , uh , y do you remember which case ? professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: it gives like negative well , in in like some italian and ti - digits , phd d: yeah , some @ @ . phd b: right ? phd d: right . phd b: yeah . so by using the endpointed speech , actually it 's worse than the baseline in some instances , which could be due to the word pattern . phd d: mmm . yeah . professor c: yeah , phd d: and yeah , the other thing also is that fourteen percent is less than what you obtain using a real vad . phd b: yeah , our neural net phd d: so with without cheating like this . phd b: yeah , yeah . phd d: so uh so i think this shows that there is still work uh , well , working on the vad is still still important i think . professor c: yeah , c phd d: uh phd a: can i ask just a a high level question ? can you just say like one or two sentences about wiener filtering and why why are people doing that ? phd b: hmm . phd a: what 's what 's the deal with that ? phd b: ok , so the wiener filter , it 's it 's like it 's like you try to minimize i mean , so the basic principle of wiener filter is like you try to minimize the , uh , d uh , difference between the noisy signal and the clean signal if you have two channels . like let 's say you have a clean t signal and you have an additional channel where you know what is the noisy signal . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: and then you try to minimize the error between these two . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: so that 's the basic principle . and you get you can do that i mean , if if you have only a c noisy signal , at a level which you , you w try to estimate the noise from the w assuming that the first few frames are noise or if you have a w voice activity detector , uh , you estimate the noise spectrum . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: and then you phd a: do you assume the noise is the same ? phd b: yeah . in yeah , after the speech starts . phd a: uh - huh . phd b: so but that 's not the case in , uh , many many of our cases but it works reasonably well . phd a: i see . phd b: and and then you what you do is you , uh b fff . so again , i can write down some of these eq oh , ok . yeah . and then you do this uh , this is the transfer function of the wiener filter , so `` sf `` is a clean speech spectrum , power spectrum phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: and `` n `` is the noisy power spectrum . and so this is the transfer function . professor c: right phd b: and , professor c: actually , i guess phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd b: and then you multiply your noisy power spectrum with this . you get an estimate of the clean power spectrum . phd a: i see . ok . phd b: so but the thing is that you have to estimate the sf from the noisy spectrum , what you have . so you estimate the nf from the initial noise portions and then you subtract that from the current noisy spectrum to get an estimate of the sf . so sometimes that becomes zero because you do you do n't have a true estimate of the noise . so the f filter will have like sometimes zeros in it phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: because some frequency values will be zeroed out because of that . and that creates a lot of discontinuities across the spectrum because @ @ the filter . so , uh , so that 's what that was just the first stage of wiener filtering that i tried . phd a: so is this , um , basically s uh , similar to just regular spectral subtraction ? phd b: it professor c: it 's all pretty related , phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah . it 's it 's there 's a di there 's a whole class of techniques where you try in some sense to minimize the noise . phd a: uh - huh . professor c: and it 's typically a mean square sense , uh uh uh , i in in in some way . and , uh uh , spectral subtraction is is , uh uh , one approach to it . phd a: do people use the wiener filtering in combination with the spectral subtraction typically , or is i are they sort of competing techniques ? phd b: not seen . they are very s similar techniques . phd a: yeah . o oh , ok . phd b: so it 's like i have n't seen anybody using s wiener filter with spectral subtraction . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: i see , i see . professor c: i mean , in the long run you 're doing the same thing phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . professor c: but y but there you make different approximations , and in spectral subtraction , for instance , there 's a a an estimation factor . phd a: mmm . professor c: you sometimes will figure out what the noise is and you 'll multiply that noise spectrum times some constant and subtract that rather than and sometimes people even though this really should be in the power domain , sometimes people s work in the magnitude domain because it it it works better . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and , uh , uh , you know . phd a: so why did you choose , uh , wiener filtering over some other one of these other techniques ? phd b: uh , the reason was , like , we had this choice of using spectral subtraction , wiener filtering , and there was one more thing which i which i 'm trying , is this sub space approach . so , stephane is working on spectral subtraction . phd a: oh , ok . phd b: so i picked up phd a: so you 're sort of trying @ @ them all . phd b: y yeah , phd a: ah , phd b: we just wanted to have a few noise production compensation techniques phd a: i see . oh , ok . phd b: and then pick some from that phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: pick one . professor c: i m i mean yeah , i mean , there 's car - carmen 's working on another , on the vector taylor series . phd b: va yeah , vad . w yeah . professor c: so they were just kind of trying to cover a bunch of different things with this task and see , you know , what are what are the issues for each of them . phd a: ah , ok . that makes sense . phd b: yeah . phd a: yeah . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: um . phd a: cool , thanks . phd b: so so one of one of the things that i tried , like i said , was to remove those zeros in the fri filter by doing some smoothing of the filter . professor c: yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: like , you estimate the edge of square and then you do a f smoothing across the frequency so that those zeros get , like , flattened out . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: and that does n't seems to be improving by trying it on the first time . so what i did was like i p did this and then you i plugged in the one more the same thing but with the smoothed filter the second time . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: and that seems to be working . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: so that 's where i got like fifty - six point five percent improvement on speechdat - car with that . and so the other thing what i tried was i used still the ten frames of noise estimate but i used this channel zero vad to drop the frames . so i 'm not still not estimating . and that has taken the performance to like sixty - seven percent in speechdat - car , which is which which like sort of shows that by using a proper vad you can just take it to further , better levels . and so . phd a: so that 's sort of like , you know , best - case performance ? phd b: yeah , so far i 've seen sixty - seven i mean , no , i have n't seen s like sixty - seven percent . and , uh , using the channel zero vad to estimate the noise also seems to be improving but i do n't have the results for all the cases with that . so i used channel zero vad to estimate noise as a lesser 2 x frame , which is like , everywhere i use the channel zero vad . and that seems to be the best combination , uh , rather than using a few frames to estimate and then drop a channel . professor c: so i 'm i 'm still a little confused . is that channel zero information going to be accessible during this test . phd b: nnn , no . this is just to test whether we can really improve by using a better vad . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: so , professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean so this is like the noise compensation f is fixed phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: but you make a better decision on the endpoints . that 's , like seems to be professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: so we c so i mean , which which means , like , by using this technique what we improve just the vad professor c: yes . phd b: we can just take the performance by another ten percent or better . professor c: ok . phd b: so , that that was just the , uh , reason for doing that experiment . and , w um yeah , but this all these things , i have to still try it on the ti - digits , which is like i 'm just running . and there seems to be not improving a a lot on the ti - digits , so i 'm like investigating that , why it 's not . and , um , um well after that . so , uh so the other the other thing is like i 've been i 'm doing all this stuff on the power spectrum . so tried this stuff on the mel as well mel and the magnitude , and mel magnitude , and all those things . but it seems to be the power spectrum seems to be getting the best result . so , one of one of reasons i thought like doing the averaging , after the filtering using the mel filter bank , that seems to be maybe helping rather than trying it on the mel filter ba filtered outputs . professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd b: so just th professor c: ma makes sense . phd b: yeah , th that 's that 's the only thing that i could think of why why it 's giving improvement on the mel . and , yep . so that 's it . professor c: uh , how about the subspace stuff ? phd b: subspace , { comment } i 'm i 'm like that 's still in a little bit in the back burner because i 've been p putting a lot effort on this to make it work , on tuning things and other stuff . professor c: ok . phd b: so i was like going parallely but not much of improvement . i 'm just have some skeletons ready , need some more time for it . professor c: ok . phd b: mmm . phd a: tha - that it ? phd b: yep . yep . phd a: cool . do you wan na go , stephane ? phd d: uh , yeah . so , i 've been , uh , working still on the spectral subtraction . um , so to r to remind you a little bit of of what i did before , is just to apply some spectral subtraction with an overestimation factor also to get , um , an estimate of the noise , uh , spectrum , and subtract this estimation of the noise spectrum from the , uh , signal spectrum , { comment } but subtracting more when the snr is is , uh , low , which is a technique that it 's often used . phd a: `` subtracting more `` , meaning ? phd d: so you overestimate the noise spectrum . you multiply the noise spectrum by a factor , uh , which depends on the snr . phd a: oh , ok . i see . phd d: so , above twenty db , it 's one , so you just subtract the noise . phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: and then it 's b generally well , i use , actually , a linear , uh , function of the snr , phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: which is bounded to , like , two or three , { comment } when the snr is below zero db . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: um , doing just this , uh , either on the fft bins or on the mel bands , um , t does n't yield any improvement professor c: oh ! um , uh , what are you doing with negative , uh , powers ? phd d: o yeah . so there is also a threshold , of course , because after subtraction you can have negative energies , phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: and so what i i just do is to put , uh to to add to put the threshold first and then to add a small amount of noise , which right now is speech - shaped . um phd a: speech - shaped ? phd d: yeah , so it 's a it has the overall overall energy , uh pow it has the overall power spectrum of speech . so with a bump around one kilohertz . phd a: so when y when you talk about there being something less than zero after subtracting the noise , is that at a particular frequency bin ? phd d: i uh - huh . yeah . phd a: ok . phd d: there can be frequency bins with negative values . phd a: and so when you say you 're adding something that has the overall shape of speech , is that in a in a particular frequency bin ? or you 're adding something across all the frequencies when you get these negatives ? phd d: for each frequencies i a i 'm adding some , uh , noise , but the a the amount of the amount of noise i add is not the same for all the frequency bins . phd a: ah ! ok . i gotcha . right . phd d: uh . right now i do n't think if it makes sense to add something that 's speech - shaped , because then you have silence portion that have some spectra similar to the sp the overall speech spectra . phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: but yeah . so this is something i can still work on , phd a: so what does that mean ? phd d: but hmm . phd a: i 'm trying to understand what it means when you do the spectral subtraction and you get a negative . it means that at that particular frequency range you subtracted more energy than there was actually phd d: that means that mm - hmm . yeah . so so yeah , you have an an estimation of the noise spectrum , but sometimes , of course , it 's as the noise is not perfectly stationary , sometimes this estimation can be , uh , too small , so you do n't subtract enough . but sometimes it can be too large also . if if the noise , uh , energy in this particular frequency band drops for some reason . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: mmm . phd a: so in in an ideal word i world { comment } if the noise were always the same , then , when you subtracted it the worst that i you would get would be a zero . i mean , the lowest you would get would be a zero , cuz i if there was no other energy there you 're just subtracting exactly the noise . professor c: right . phd d: mm - hmm , professor c: yep , there 's all there 's all sorts of , uh , deviations from the ideal here . phd d: yeah . professor c: i mean , for instance , you 're you 're talking about the signal and noise , um , at a particular point . and even if something is sort of stationary in ster terms of statistics , there 's no guarantee that any particular instantiation or piece of it is exactly a particular number or bounded by a particular range . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so , you 're figuring out from some chunk of of of the signal what you think the noise is . then you 're subtracting that from another chunk , phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and there 's absolutely no reason to think that you 'd know that it would n't , uh , be negative in some places . phd d: mm - hmm . hmm . professor c: uh , on the other hand that just means that in some sense you 've made a mistake because you certainly have stra subtracted a bigger number than is due to the noise . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: um also , we speak the whole where all this stuff comes from is from an assumption that signal and noise are uncorrelated . and that certainly makes sense in s in in a statistical interpretation , that , you know , over , um , all possible realizations that they 're uncorrelated phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: or assuming , uh , ergodicity that i that i um , across time , uh , it 's uncorrelated . but if you just look at a quarter second , uh , and you cross - multiply the two things , uh , you could very well , uh , end up with something that sums to something that 's not zero . so in fact , the two signals could have some relation to one another . and so there 's all sorts of deviations from ideal in this . and and given all that , you could definitely end up with something that 's negative . but if down the road you 're making use of something as if it is a power spectrum , um , then it can be bad to have something negative . now , the other thing i wonder about actually is , what if you left it negative ? what happens ? phd b: is that the log ? professor c: i mean , because um , are you taking the log before you add them up to the mel ? phd b: after that . no , after . professor c: right . so the thing is , i wonder how if you put your thresholds after that , i wonder how often you would end up with , uh with negative values . phd b: but you will but you end up reducing some neighboring frequency bins @ @ in the average , right ? when you add the negative to the positive value which is the true estimate . professor c: yeah . but nonetheless , uh , you know , these are it 's another f kind of smoothing , right ? that you 're doing . phd b: yeah . professor c: right . so , you 've done your best shot at figuring out what the noise should be , and now i then you 've subtracted it off . and then after that , instead of instead of , uh , uh , leaving it as is and adding things adding up some neighbors , you artificially push it up . phd b: hmm . professor c: which is , you know , it 's there 's no particular reason that that 's the right thing to do either , right ? phd b: yeah , yeah . professor c: so , um , uh , i in fact , what you 'd be doing is saying , `` well , we 're d we 're we 're going to definitely diminish the effect of this frequency in this little frequency bin in the in the overall mel summation `` . it 's just a thought . i d i do n't know if it would be phd a: sort of the opposite of that would be if if you find out you 're going to get a negative number , you do n't do the subtraction for that bin . phd b: yeah . uh - huh . that is true . professor c: nnn , yeah , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: although phd a: that would be almost the opposite , right ? instead of leaving it negative , you do n't do it . if your if your subtraction 's going to result in a negative number , you you do n't do subtraction in that . professor c: yeah , but that means that in a situation where you thought that that the bin was almost entirely noise , you left it . phd a: yeah . yeah , i 'm just saying that 's like the opposite . phd b: we just professor c: uh . phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd a: yeah . professor c: well , yeah that 's that 's the opposite , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah . phd d: and , yeah , some people also if it 's a negative value they , uh , re - compute it using inter interpolation from the edges and bins . phd b: for frames , frequency bins . professor c: yeah . phd d: well , there are different things that you can do . phd a: oh . professor c: people can also , uh , reflect it back up and essentially do a full wave rectification instead of a instead of half wave . phd a: oh . professor c: but it was just a thought that that it might be something to try . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . yep . well , actually i tried , something else based on this , um , is to to put some smoothing , um , because it seems to to help or it seems to help the wiener filtering professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and , mmm so what i did is , uh , some kind of nonlinear smoothing . actually i have a recursion that computes yeah , let me go back a little bit . actually , when you do spectral subtraction you can , uh , find this this equivalent in the s in the spectral domain . you can uh compute , y you can say that d your spectral subtraction is a filter , um , and the gain of this filter is the , um , signal energy minus what you subtract , divided by the signal energy . and this is a gain that varies over time , and , you know , of course , uh , depending on the s on the noise spectrum and on the speech spectrum . and what happen actually is that during low snr values , the gain is close to zero but it varies a lot . mmm , and this this is the cause of musical noise and all these the { comment } the fact you we go below zero one frame and then you can have an energy that 's above zero . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and mmm . so the smoothing is i did a smoothing actually on this gain , uh , trajectory . but it 's the smoothing is nonlinear in the sense that i tried to not smooth if the gain is high , because in this case we know that , uh , the estimate of the gain is correct because we we are not close to to to zero , um , and to do more smoothing if the gain is low . mmm . um . yeah . so , well , basically that 's this idea , and it seems to give pretty good results , uh , although i 've just just tested on italian and finnish . and on italian it seems my result seems to be a little bit better than the wiener filtering , phd b: mm - hmm . yeah , the one you showed yesterday . phd d: right ? phd b: right ? professor c: yeah . phd d: uh , i do n't know if you have these improvement the detailed improvements for italian , finnish , and spanish there phd b: fff . no , i do n't have , for each , phd d: or you have just have your own . phd b: i i just just have the final number here . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so these numbers he was giving before with the four point three , and the ten point one , and so forth , those were italian , right ? phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah . so so , no , professor c: yeah . phd d: uh phd b: i actually did n't give you the number which is the final one , phd d: uh , no , we 've phd b: which is , after two stages of wiener filtering . i mean , that was i just well , like the overall improvement is like fifty - six point five . so , professor c: right . phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean , his number is still better than what i got in the two stages of wiener filtering . phd d: yeah . professor c: right . phd d: on italian . but on finnish it 's a little bit worse , apparently . phd b: mm - hmm . phd d: um professor c: but do you have numbers in terms of word error rates on on italian ? so just so you have some sense of reference ? phd d: yeah . uh , so , it 's , uh , three point , uh , eight . professor c: uh - huh . phd d: am i right ? phd b: oh , ok . yeah , right , ok . phd d: and then , uh , d uh , nine point , uh , one . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and finally , uh , sixteen point five . professor c: and this is , um , spectral subtraction plus what ? phd d: plus plus nonlinear smoothing . well , it 's the system it 's exactly the sys the same system as sunil tried , professor c: on - line normalization and lda ? phd d: but professor c: yeah . yeah . phd d: yeah . but instead of double stage wiener filtering , it 's it 's this smoothed spectral subtraction . um , yeah . phd a: what is it the , um , france telecom system uses professor c: right . phd a: for do they use spectral subtraction , or wiener filtering , or ? phd b: they use spectral subtraction , right . phd d: for what ? phd b: french telecom . phd d: it it 's wiener filtering , phd b: oh , it 's it 's wiener filtering . phd d: am i right ? phd a: oh . phd b: sorry . phd d: well , it 's some kind of wiener filtering phd b: yeah , filtering . yeah , it 's not exactly wiener filtering but some variant of wiener filtering . phd d: yeah . phd a: i see . phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah , plus , uh , i guess they have some sort of cepstral normalization , as well . phd b: s they have like yeah , th the just noise compensation technique is a variant of wiener filtering , phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: plus they do some some smoothing techniques on the final filter . the th they actually do the filtering in the time domain . phd a: mmm . phd d: yeah . phd a: hmm . phd b: so they would take this hf squared back , taking inverse fourier transform . and they convolve the time domain signal with that . phd a: oh , i see . phd b: and they do some smoothing on that final filter , impulse response . phd a: hmm . phd d: but they also have two two different smoothing @ @ . phd b: i mean , i 'm i 'm @ @ . phd d: one in the time domain and one in the frequency domain by just taking the first , um , coefficients of the impulse response . phd b: but . phd d: so , basically it 's similar . i mean , what you did , it 's similar phd b: it 's similar in the smoothing and phd d: because you have also two two kind of smoothing . phd b: yeah . phd d: one in the time domain , and one in the frequency domain , phd b: yeah . the frequency domain . phd d: yeah . phd a: does the smoothing in the time domain help phd d: um phd a: well , do you get this musical noise stuff with wiener filtering or is that only with , uh , spectral subtraction ? phd b: no , you get it with wiener filtering also . phd d: yeah . phd a: does the smoothing in the time domain help with that ? or some other smoothing ? phd b: oh , no , you still end up with zeros in the s spectrum . sometimes . phd d: yeah . phd a: hmm . professor c: i mean , it 's not clear that these musical noises hurt us in recognition . phd a: hmm . professor c: we do n't know if they do . phd b: yeah . professor c: i mean , they they sound bad . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah , i know . professor c: but we 're not listening to it , usually . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: hmm . phd d: uh , actually the the smoothing that i did do here reduced the musical noise . well , it phd b: mm - hmm . yeah , yeah , phd d: mmm . phd b: the phd d: well , i can not you can not hear beca well , actually what i d did not say is that this is not in the fft bins . this is in the mel frequency bands . um so , it could be seen as a f a a smoothing in the frequency domain because i used , in ad mel bands in addition and then the other phase of smoothing in the time domain . mmm . but , when you look at the spectrogram , if you do n't have an any smoothing , you clearly see , like in silence portions , and at the beginning and end of speech , you see spots of high energy randomly distributed over the the spectrogram . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: um phd a: that 's the musical noise ? phd d: which is musical noise , phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah , if if it if you listen to it uh , if you do this in the fft bins , then you have spots of energy randomly distributing . and if you f if you re - synthesize these spot sounds as , like , sounds , phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: uh professor c: well , none of these systems , by the way , have i mean , y you both are are working with , um , our system that does not have the neural net , phd d: and phd b: yep . professor c: right ? phd b: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: ok . so one would hope , presumably , that the neural net part of it would would improve things further as as they did before . phd d: yeah . yeah . um yeah , although if if we , um , look at the result from the proposals , { comment } one of the reason , uh , the n system with the neural net was , um , more than well , around five percent better , is that it was much better on highly mismatched condition . i 'm thinking , for instance , on the ti - digits trained on clean speech and tested on noisy speech . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: uh , for this case , the system with the neural net was much better . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: but not much on the in the other cases . professor c: yeah . phd d: and if we have no , uh , spectral subtraction or wiener filtering , um , i the system is uh , we thought the neural neural network is much better than before , even in these cases of high mismatch . so , maybe the neural net will help less but , um professor c: maybe . phd a: could you train a neural net to do spectral subtraction ? professor c: yeah , it could do a nonlinear spectral subtraction phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: but i do n't know if it i mean , you have to figure out what your targets are . phd a: yeah , i was thinking if you had a clean version of the signal and and a noisy version , and your targets were the m f - uh , you know , whatever , frequency bins phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: right . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah , well , that 's not so much spectral subtraction then , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: but but but it 's but at any rate , yeah , people , uh phd a: people do that ? professor c: y yeah , in fact , we had visitors here who did that i think when you were here ba way back when . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: hmm . professor c: uh , people d done lots of experimentation over the years with training neural nets . and it 's not a bad thing to do . it 's another approach . phd a: hmm . professor c: m i mean , it 's it , um phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: the objection everyone always raises , which has some truth to it is that , um , it 's good for mapping from a particular noise to clean but then you get a different noise . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and the experiments we saw that visitors did here showed that it there was at least some , um , { comment } gentleness to the degradation when you switched to different noises . it did seem to help . so that you 're right , that 's another another way to go . phd a: how did it compare on i mean , for for good cases where it it uh , stuff that it was trained on ? did it do pretty well ? professor c: oh , yeah , it did very well . phd a: mmm . professor c: yeah . phd a: mmm . professor c: um , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: but to some extent that 's kind of what we 're doing . i mean , we 're not doing exactly that , we 're not trying to generate good examples but by trying to do the best classifier you possibly can , for these little phonetic categories , phd a: mm - hmm . you could say it 's sort of built in . professor c: it 's yeah , it 's kind of built into that . phd a: hmm . professor c: and and that 's why we have found that it it does help . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: um so , um , yeah , i mean , we 'll just have to try it . but i i would i would i would imagine that it will help some . i mean , it we 'll just have to see whether it helps more or less the same , but i would imagine it would help some . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so in any event , all of this i was just confirming that all of this was with a simpler system . phd d: yeah , professor c: ok ? phd d: yeah . um , yeah , so this is th the , um well , actually , this was kind of the first try with this spectral subtraction plus smoothing , professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and i was kind of excited by the result . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: um , then i started to optimize the different parameters . and , uh , the first thing i tried to optimize is the , um , time constant of the smoothing . and it seems that the one that i chose for the first experiment was the optimal one , so uh , professor c: it 's amazing how often that happens . phd d: um , so this is the first thing . um yeah , another thing that i it 's important to mention is , um , that this has a this has some additional latency . um . because when i do the smoothing , uh , it 's a recursion that estimated the means , so of the g of the gain curve . and this is a filter that has some latency . and i noticed that it 's better if we take into account this latency . so , instead o of using the current estimated mean to , uh , subtract the current frame , it 's better to use an estimate that 's some somewhere in the future . um phd a: and that 's what causes the latency ? ok . phd b: you mean , the m the mean is computed o based on some frames in the future also ? professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . phd b: or or no ? phd d: it 's the recursion , so it 's it 's the center recursion , right ? phd b: mm - hmm . phd d: um and the latency of this recursion is around fifty milliseconds . professor c: one five ? phd d: professor c: one five ? five zero ? phd d: five zero , professor c: five zero . phd d: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd d: um , phd b: i 'm sorry , phd d: mmm . phd b: why why is that delay coming ? like , you estimate the mean ? phd d: yeah , the mean estimation has some delay , right ? phd b: oh , yeah . phd d: i mean , the the filter that that estimates the mean has a time constant . phd b: it is n't ok , so it 's like it looks into the future also . ok . phd d: yeah . professor c: what if you just look into the past ? phd d: it 's , uh , not as good . it 's not bad . professor c: how m by how much ? phd d: um , it helps a lot over the ba the baseline but , mmm professor c: by how much ? phd d: it it 's around three percent , um , relative . professor c: worse . phd d: yeah . yeah . um , professor c: hmm . phd d: mmm so , uh professor c: it 's depending on how all this stuff comes out we may or may not be able to add any latency . phd d: yeah , but yeah . so , yeah , it depends . uh , y actually , it 's it 's l it 's three percent . right . mmm . yeah , b but i do n't think we have to worry too much on that right now while you kno . mm - hmm . professor c: um , s yeah , i mean , i think the only thing is that phd d: so professor c: i would worry about it a little . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: because if we completely ignore latency , and then we discover that we really have to do something about it , we 're going to be find ourselves in a bind . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so , um , you know , maybe you could make it twenty - five . you know what i mean ? phd d: yeah . professor c: yeah , just , you know , just be be a little conservative phd d: oh yes . professor c: because we may end up with this crunch where all of a sudden we have to cut the latency in half or something . phd d: s mm - hmm . yeah . professor c: ok . phd d: um . so , yeah , there are other things in the , um , algorithm that i did n't , uh , @ @ a lot yet , phd a: oh ! phd d: which phd a: sorry . a quick question just about the latency thing . if if there 's another part of the system that causes a latency of a hundred milliseconds , is this an additive thing ? or c or is yours hidden in that ? phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: uh phd d: no , it 's it 's added . phd a: it 's additive . ok . phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: we can ok . we can do something in parallel also , in some like some cases like , if you wanted to do voice activity detection . phd a: uh - huh . phd b: and we can do that in parallel with some other filtering you can do . phd d: mmm . phd b: so you can make a decision on that voice activity detection and then you decide whether you want to filter or not . phd d: yeah . phd b: but by then you already have the sufficient samples to do the filtering . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: so so , sometimes you can do it anyway . phd a: i mean , could n't , uh i could n't you just also i mean , i if you know that the l the largest latency in the system is two hundred milliseconds , do n't you could n't you just buffer up that number of frames and then everything uses that buffer ? phd b: yeah . phd a: and that way it 's not additive ? professor c: well , in fact , everything is sent over in buffers cuz of is n't it the tcp buffer some ? phd b: you mean , the the data , the super frame or something ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah , yeah . phd d: yeah . phd b: yeah , but that has a variable latency because the last frame does n't have any latency phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: and first frame has a twenty framed latency . so you ca n't r rely on that latency all the time . professor c: yeah . phd b: because i mean the transmission over over the air interface is like a buffer . phd d: yeah . phd b: twenty frame phd a: yeah . phd b: twenty four frames . phd a: yeah . phd b: so but the only thing is that the first frame in that twenty - four frame buffer has a twenty - four frame latency . and the last frame does n't have any latency . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: because it just goes as phd a: yeah , i was n't thinking of that one in particular phd b: yeah . phd a: but more of , you know , if if there is some part of your system that has to buffer twenty frames , uh , ca n't the other parts of the system draw out of that buffer and therefore not add to the latency ? professor c: yeah . yeah . and and that 's sort of one of the all of that sort of stuff is things that they 're debating in their standards committee . phd a: oh ! hmm . phd d: mm - hmm . yeah . so , um , there is uh , { comment } these parameters that i still have to to look at . like , i played a little bit with this overestimation factor , uh , but i still have to to look more at this , um , at the level of noise i add after . uh , i know that adding noise helped , um , the system just using spectral subtraction without smoothing , but i do n't know right now if it 's still important or not , and if the level i choose before is still the right one . same thing for the shape of the the noise . maybe it would be better to add just white noise instead of speech shaped noise . professor c: that 'd be more like the jrasta thing in a sense . yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . um , yep . uh , and another thing is to yeah , for this i just use as noise estimate the mean , uh , spectrum of the first twenty frames of each utterance . i do n't remember for this experiment what did you use for these two stage phd b: i used ten just ten frames . yeah , because phd d: the ten frames ? phd b: i mean , the reason was like in ti - digits i do n't have a lot . i had twenty frames most of the time . phd d: mm - hmm . um . but , so what 's this result you told me about , the fact that if you use more than ten frames you can improve by t phd b: well , that 's that 's using the channel zero . if i use a channel zero vad to estimate the noise . phd d: oh , ok . phd b: which phd d: but this is ten frames plus plus phd b: channel zero dropping . phd d: channel phd b: hmm . phd d: uh , no , these results with two stage wiener filtering is ten frames phd b: t oh , this phd d: but possibly more . i mean , if channel one vad gives you phd b: f yeah . mm - hmm . yeah . phd d: yeah . ok . yeah , but in this experiment i did i did n't use any vad . i just used the twenty first frame to estimate the noise . and so i expected it to be a little bit better , if , uh , i use more more frames . um . ok , that 's it for spectral subtraction . the second thing i was working on is to , um , try to look at noise estimation , { comment } mmm , and using some technique that does n't need voice activity detection . um , and for this i u simply used some code that , uh , i had from from belgium , which is technique that , um , takes a bunch of frame , um , and for each frequency bands of this frame , takes a look at the minima of the energy . and then average these minima and take this as an an energy estimate of the noise for this particular frequency band . and there is something more to this actually . what is done is that , uh , these minima are computed , um , based on , um , high resolution spectra . so , i compute an fft based on the long , uh , signal frame which is sixty - four millisecond phd a: so you have one minimum for each frequency ? phd d: what what i what i d uh , i do actually , is to take a bunch of to take a tile on the spectrogram and this tile is five hundred milliseconds long and two hundred hertz wide . phd a: mmm . phd d: and this tile uh , in this tile appears , like , the harmonics if you have a voiced sound , because it 's it 's the ftt bins . and when you take the m the minima of of these this tile , when you do n't have speech , these minima will give you some noise level estimate , if you have voiced speech , these minima will still give you some noise estimate because the minima are between the harmonics . and if you have other other kind of speech sounds then it 's not the case , but if the time frame is long enough , uh , like s five hundred milliseconds seems to be long enough , { comment } you still have portions which , uh , are very close whi which minima are very close to the noise energy . professor c: i 'm confused . you said five hundred milliseconds phd d: mmm ? professor c: but you said sixty - four milliseconds . which is which ? what ? phd d: sixty - four milliseconds is to compute the fft , uh , bins . professor c: yeah , phd d: the the fft . professor c: yeah . phd d: um , actually it 's better to use sixty - four milliseconds because , um , if you use thirty milliseconds , then , uh , because of the this short windowing and at low pitch , uh , sounds , the harmonics are not , wha uh , correctly separated . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: so if you take these minima , it b they will overestimate the noise a lot . professor c: so you take sixty - four millisecond f f ts and then you average them { comment } over five hundred ? or ? uh , what do you do over five hundred ? phd d: so i take to i take a bunch of these sixty - four millisecond frame to cover five hundred milliseconds , professor c: ah . ok . phd d: and then i look for the minima , phd a: mmm . professor c: i see . phd d: on the on on the bunch of uh fifty frames , right ? professor c: i see . phd d: mmm . so the interest of this is that , as y with this technique you can estimate u some reasonable noise spectra with only five hundred milliseconds of of signal , so if the the n the noise varies a lot , uh , you can track better track the noise , professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: which is not the case if you rely on the voice activity detector . so even if there are no no speech pauses , you can track the noise level . the only requirement is that you must have , in these five hundred milliseconds segment , { comment } you must have voiced sound at least . cuz this these will help you to to track the the noise level . um . so what i did is just to simply replace the vad - based , uh , noise estimate by this estimate , first on speechdat - car well , only on speechdat - car actually . and it 's , uh , slightly worse , like one percent relative compared to the vad - based estimates . um , i think the reason why it 's not better , is that the speechdat - car noises are all stationary . um . so , u y y there really is no need to have something that 's adaptive professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and uh , well , they are mainly stationary . um . but , i expect s maybe some improvement on ti - digits because , nnn , in this case the noises are all sometimes very variable . uh , so i have to test it . mmm . professor c: but are you comparing with something e i 'm i 'm p s a little confused again , i it uh , when you compare it with the v a d - based , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: vad - is this is this the ? phd d: it 's it 's the france - telecom - based spectra , s uh , wiener filtering and vad . so it 's their system but just i replace their noise estimate by this one . professor c: oh , you 're not doing this with our system ? phd d: in i i 'm not no , no . yeah , it 's our system but with just the wiener filtering from their system . right ? mmm . professor c: ok . phd d: yeah . actually , th the best system that we still have is , uh , our system but with their noise compensation scheme , right ? professor c: right . but phd d: so i 'm trying to improve on this , and by by replacing their noise estimate by , uh , something that might be better . professor c: ok . but the spectral subtraction scheme that you reported on also re requires a a noise estimate . phd d: yeah . yeah . professor c: could n't you try this for that ? phd d: but i di professor c: do you think it might help ? phd d: not yet , because i did this in parallel , professor c: i see , phd d: and i was working on one and the other . professor c: i see . yeah . phd d: um , phd b: yeah . phd d: yeah , for for sure i will . i can try also , mmm , the spectral subtraction . phd b: so i 'm also using that n new noise estimate technique on this wiener filtering what i 'm trying . professor c: ok . phd b: so i i have , like , some experiments running , i do n't have the results . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah . phd b: so . professor c: yeah . phd b: i do n't estimate the f noise on the ten frames but use his estimate . professor c: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . um . yeah . i , um , also implemented a sp um spectral whitening idea which is in the , um , ericsson proposal . uh , the idea is just to um , flatten the log , uh , spectrum , um , and to flatten it more if the the probability of silence is higher . so in this way , you can also reduce somewhat reduce the musical noise and you reduce the variability if you have different noise shapes , because the the spectrum becomes more flat in the silence portions . um . yeah . with this , no improvement , uh , but there are a lot of parameters that we can play with and , um actually , this this could be seen as a soft version of the frame dropping because , um , you could just put the threshold and say that `` below the threshold , i will flatten comp completely flatten the the spectrum `` . and above this threshold , uh , keep the same spectrum . so it would be like frame dropping , because during the silence portions which are below the threshold of voice activity probability , { comment } uh , w you would have some kind of dummy frame which is a perfectly flat spectrum . and this , uh , whitening is something that 's more soft because , um , you whiten you just , uh , have a function the whitening is a function of the speech probability , so it 's not a hard decision . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: um , so i think maybe it can be used together with frame dropping and when we are not sure about if it 's speech or silence , well , maybe it has something do with this . professor c: it 's interesting . i mean , um , you know , in in jrasta we were essentially adding in , uh , white uh , white noise dependent on our estimate of the noise . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: on the overall estimate of the noise . uh , i think it never occurred to us to use a probability in there . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: you could imagine one that that that made use of where where the amount that you added in was , uh , a function of the probability of it being s speech or noise . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . yeah , w yeah , right now it 's a constant that just depending on the the noise spectrum . phd b: there 's professor c: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: cuz that that brings in sort of powers of classifiers that we do n't really have in , uh , this other estimate . so it could be it could be interesting . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: what what what point does the , uh , system stop recording ? how much phd a: it 'll keep going till i guess when they run out of disk space , professor c: it went a little long ? i mean , disk phd a: but i think we 're ok . phd d: so . professor c: ok . phd d: yeah . uh yeah , so there are with this technique there are some i just did something exactly the same as as the ericsson proposal but , um , the probability of speech is not computed the same way . and i think , i for yeah , for a lot of things , actually a g a good speech probability is important . like for frame dropping you improve , like you can improve from ten percent as sunil showed , if you use the channel zero speech probabilities . professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: for this it might help , um professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: s so , yeah . uh , so yeah , the next thing i started to do is to , uh , try to develop a better voice activity detector . and , um i d um yeah , for this i think we can maybe try to train the neural network for voice activity detection on all the data that we have , including all the speechdat - car data . um and so i 'm starting to obtain alignments on these databases . um , and the way i mi i do that is that i just use the htk system but i train it only on the close - talking microphone . and then i aligned i obtained the viterbi alignment of the training utterances . um it seems to be , uh i actually what i observed is that for italian it does n't seem th - there seems to be a problem . phd b: no . so , it does n't seems to help by their use of channel zero or channel one . phd d: well . because what ? phd b: uh , you mean their d the frame dropping , right ? yeah , it does n't phd d: yeah . yeah . so , u but actually the vad was trained on italian also , phd b: italian . phd d: so um , the c the current vad that we have was trained on , uh , t spine , right ? phd b: ti - digits . phd d: italian , and ti - digits with noise and phd b: phd d: uh , yeah . and it seems to work on italian but not on the finnish and spanish data . so , maybe one reason is that s s finnish and spanish noise are different . and actually we observed we listened to some of the utterances and sometimes for finnish there is music in the recordings and strange things , right ? phd b: yeah . phd d: um yeah , so the idea was to train all the databases and obtain an alignment to train on these databases , and , um , also to , um , try different kind of features , uh , as input to the vad network . and we came up with a bunch of features that we want to try like , um , the spectral slope , the , um , the degree o degree of voicing with the features that , uh , we started to develop with carmen , um , e with , uh , the correlation between bands and different kind of features , phd b: yeah . mm - hmm . phd d: and yeah . phd b: the energy also . phd d: the energy . phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah , right . phd d: yeah . of course . yeah . professor c: ok . well , hans - guenter will be here next week so i think he 'll be interested in all all of these things . and , so . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: mmm . phd a: ok , shall we , uh , do digits ? professor c: yeah . phd a: want to go ahead , morgan ? professor c: sure . phd a: ok .

phd d informed the team that there was additional latency in the system with spectral subtraction . the professor wanted the team to be cognizant of the latency . the team suggested a spectral whitening approach or using a probability focused approach to solve the problem .

why did the professor not like latency ? </s> phd a: ok , we 're going . phd d: damn . professor c: and uh hans - uh , hans - guenter will be here , um , i think by next next tuesday or so . phd b: oh , ok . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so he 's he 's going to be here for about three weeks , phd b: oh ! that 's nice . phd a: just for a visit ? professor c: and , uh uh , we 'll see . phd a: huh . professor c: we might might end up with some longer collaboration or something . phd a: cool . professor c: so he 's gon na look in on everything we 're doing phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: and give us his his thoughts . and so it 'll be another another good person looking at things . phd b: oh . hmm . grad e: th - that 's his spectral subtraction group ? professor c: yeah , grad e: is that right ? professor c: yeah . grad e: oh , ok . so i guess i should probably talk to him a bit too ? professor c: oh , yeah . yeah . yeah . no , he 'll be around for three weeks . he 's , uh , um , very , very , easygoing , easy to talk to , and , uh , very interested in everything . phd a: really nice guy . professor c: yeah , yeah . phd b: yeah , we met him in amsterdam . professor c: yeah , yeah , he 's been here before . phd b: oh , ok . professor c: i mean , he 's he 's he 's he 's phd a: wh - back when i was a grad student he was here for a , uh , uh a year or { comment } n six months . phd b: i have n't noticed him . professor c: n nine months . phd a: something like that . professor c: something like that . phd a: yeah . professor c: yeah . yeah . he 's he 's done a couple stays here . phd b: hmm . professor c: yeah . phd a: so , um , { comment } i guess we got lots to catch up on . and we have n't met for a couple of weeks . we did n't meet last week , morgan . um , i went around and talked to everybody , and it seemed like they they had some new results but rather than them coming up and telling me i figured we should just wait a week and they can tell both you know , all of us . so , um , why do n't we why do n't we start with you , dave , and then , um , we can go on . grad e: oh , ok . phd a: so . grad e: so , um , since we 're looking at putting this , um mean log m magnitude spectral subtraction , um , into the smartkom system , i i did a test seeing if , um , it would work using past only { comment } and plus the present to calculate the mean . so , i did a test , um , where i used twelve seconds from the past and the present frame to , um , calculate the mean . and phd a: twelve seconds twelve twelve seconds back from the current frame , is that what you mean ? grad e: uh twelve seconds , um , counting back from the end of the current frame , phd a: ok , ok . grad e: yeah . so it was , um , twen i think it was twenty - one frames and that worked out to about twelve seconds . phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: and compared to , um , do using a twelve second centered window , i think there was a drop in performance but it was just a slight drop . phd a: hmm ! professor c: mm - hmm . grad e: is is that right ? professor c: um , yeah , i mean , it was pretty it was pretty tiny . yeah . grad e: uh - huh . so that was encouraging . and , um , that that um , that 's encouraging for for the idea of using it in an interactive system like and , um , another issue i 'm i 'm thinking about is in the smartkom system . so say twe twelve seconds in the earlier test seemed like a good length of time , but what happens if you have less than twelve seconds ? and , um so i w bef before , um back in may , i did some experiments using , say , two seconds , or four seconds , or six seconds . in those i trained the models using mean subtraction with the means calculated over two seconds , or four seconds , or six seconds . and , um , here , i was curious , what if i trained the models using twelve seconds but i f i gave it a situation where the test set i was subtracted using two seconds , or four seconds , or six seconds . and , um so i did that for about three different conditions . and , um i mean , i th i think it was , um , four se i think i think it was , um , something like four seconds and , um , six seconds , and eight seconds . something like that . and it seems like it it it hurts compared to if you actually train the models { comment } using th that same length of time but it it does n't hurt that much . um , u usually less than point five percent , although i think i did see one where it was a point eight percent or so rise in word error rate . but this is , um , w where , um , even if i train on the , uh , model , and mean subtracted it with the same length of time as in the test , it the word error rate is around , um , ten percent or nine percent . so it does n't seem like that big a d a difference . professor c: but it but looking at it the other way , is n't it what you 're saying that it did n't help you to have the longer time for training , if you were going to have a short time for grad e: that that 's true . um , professor c: i mean , why would you do it , if you knew that you were going to have short windows in testing . grad e: wa phd a: yeah , it seems like for your i mean , in normal situations you would never get twelve seconds of speech , right ? i 'm not e u phd b: you need twelve seconds in the past to estimate , right ? or l or you 're looking at six sec seconds in future and six in professor c: yeah . grad e: um , t twelve s professor c: no , total . grad e: n n uh for the test it 's just twelve seconds in the past . phd b: no , it 's all oh , ok . phd a: is this twelve seconds of uh , regardless of speech or silence ? or twelve seconds of speech ? grad e: of of speech . phd a: ok . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: the other thing , um , which maybe relates a little bit to something else we 've talked about in terms of windowing and so on is , that , um , i wonder if you trained with twelve seconds , and then when you were two seconds in you used two seconds , and when you were four seconds in , you used four seconds , and when you were six and you basically build up to the twelve seconds . so that if you have very long utterances you have the best , grad e: yeah . professor c: but if you have shorter utterances you use what you can . grad e: right . and that 's actually what we 're planning to do in professor c: ok . yeah . grad e: but s so i g so i guess the que the question i was trying to get at with those experiments is , `` does it matter what models you use ? does it matter how much time y you use to calculate the mean when you were , um , tra doing the training data ? `` professor c: right . but i mean the other thing is that that 's i mean , the other way of looking at this , going back to , uh , mean cepstral subtraction versus rasta kind of things , is that you could look at mean cepstral subtraction , especially the way you 're doing it , uh , as being a kind of filter . and so , the other thing is just to design a filter . you know , basically you 're you 're you 're doing a high - pass filter or a band - pass filter of some sort and and just design a filter . and then , you know , a filter will have a certain behavior and you loo can look at the start up behavior when you start up with nothing . grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: and and , you know , it will , uh , if you have an iir filter for instance , it will , um , uh , not behave in the steady - state way that you would like it to behave until you get a long enough period , but , um , uh , by just constraining yourself to have your filter be only a subtraction of the mean , you 're kind of , you know , tying your hands behind your back because there 's filters have all sorts of be temporal and spectral behaviors . grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: and the only thing , you know , consistent that we know about is that you want to get rid of the very low frequency component . grad e: hmm . phd b: but do you really want to calculate the mean ? and you neglect all the silence regions { comment } or you just use everything that 's twelve seconds , and grad e: um , you do you mean in my tests so far ? phd b: ye - yeah . grad e: most of the silence has been cut out . phd b: ok . grad e: just there 's just inter - word silences . phd b: mm - hmm . and they are , like , pretty short . shor grad e: pretty short . phd b: yeah , ok . grad e: yeah . phd b: yeah . mm - hmm . so you really need a lot of speech to estimate the mean of it . grad e: well , if i only use six seconds , it still works pretty well . phd b: yeah . yeah . uh - huh . grad e: i saw in my test before . i was trying twelve seconds cuz that was the best in my test before phd b: ok . grad e: and that increasing past twelve seconds did n't seem to help . phd b: hmm . huh . grad e: th um , yeah , i guess it 's something i need to play with more to decide how to set that up for the smartkom system . like , may maybe if i trained on six seconds it would work better when i only had two seconds or four seconds , and professor c: yeah . yeah . and , um grad e: ok . professor c: yeah , and again , if you take this filtering perspective and if you essentially have it build up over time . i mean , if you computed means over two and then over four , and over six , essentially what you 're getting at is a kind of , uh , ramp up of a filter anyway . and so you may may just want to think of it as a filter . but , uh , if you do that , then , um , in practice somebody using the smartkom system , one would think { comment } if they 're using it for a while , it means that their first utterance , instead of , you know , getting , uh , a forty percent error rate reduction , they 'll get a uh , over what , uh , you 'd get without this , uh , um , policy , uh , you get thirty percent . and then the second utterance that you give , they get the full you know , uh , full benefit of it if it 's this ongoing thing . phd a: oh , so you you cache the utterances ? that 's how you get your , uh professor c: well , i 'm saying in practice , yeah , grad e: m phd a: ah . ok . professor c: that 's if somebody 's using a system to ask for directions or something , phd a: ok . professor c: you know , they 'll say something first . and and to begin with if it does n't get them quite right , ma m maybe they 'll come back and say , `` excuse me ? `` phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: uh , or some i mean it should have some policy like that anyway . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and and , uh , uh , in any event they might ask a second question . and it 's not like what he 's doing does n't , uh , improve things . it does improve things , just not as much as he would like . and so , uh , there 's a higher probability of it making an error , uh , in the first utterance . phd a: what would be really cool is if you could have uh , this probably users would never like this but if you had could have a system where , before they began to use it they had to introduce themselves , verbally . professor c: mm - hmm . phd a: you know . `` hi , my name is so - and - so , professor c: yeah . phd a: i 'm from blah - blah - blah . `` and you could use that initial speech to do all these adaptations and professor c: right . grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: oh , the other thing i guess which which , uh , i do n't know much about as much as i should about the rest of the system but but , um , could n't you , uh , if you if you sort of did a first pass i do n't know what kind of , uh , uh , capability we have at the moment for for doing second passes on on , uh , uh , some kind of little small lattice , or a graph , or confusion network , or something . but if you did first pass with , um , the with either without the mean sub subtraction or with a a very short time one , and then , um , once you , uh , actually had the whole utterance in , if you did , um , the , uh , uh , longer time version then , based on everything that you had , um , and then at that point only used it to distinguish between , you know , top n , um , possible utterances or something , you you might it might not take very much time . i mean , i know in the large vocabulary stu uh , uh , systems , people were evaluating on in the past , some people really pushed everything in to make it in one pass but other people did n't and had multiple passes . and , um , the argument , um , against multiple passes was u u has often been `` but we want to this to be r you know have a nice interactive response `` . and the counterargument to that which , say , uh , bbn i think had , { comment } was `` yeah , but our second responses are second , uh , passes and third passes are really , really fast `` . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: so , um , if if your second pass takes a millisecond who cares ? um . grad e: s so , um , the the idea of the second pass would be waiting till you have more recorded speech ? or ? professor c: yeah , so if it turned out to be a problem , that you did n't have enough speech because you need a longer longer window to do this processing , then , uh , one tactic is you know , looking at the larger system and not just at the front - end stuff { comment } is to take in , um , the speech with some simpler mechanism or shorter time mechanism , grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: um , do the best you can , and come up with some al possible alternates of what might have been said . and , uh , either in the form of an n - best list or in the form of a lattice , or or confusion network , or whatever . grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: and then the decoding of that is much , much faster or can be much , much faster if it is n't a big bushy network . and you can decode that now with speech that you 've actually processed using this longer time , uh , subtraction . grad e: mmm . professor c: so i mean , it 's it 's common that people do this sort of thing where they do more things that are more complex or require looking over more time , whatever , in some kind of second pass . grad e: mm - hmm . ok . professor c: um , and again , if the second pass is really , really fast uh , another one i 've heard of is is in in connected digit stuff , um , going back and l and through backtrace and finding regions that are considered to be a d a digit , but , uh , which have very low energy . grad e: mm - hmm . ok . professor c: so , uh i mean , there 's lots of things you can do in second passes , at all sorts of levels . anyway , i 'm throwing too many things out . but . phd a: so is that , uh that it ? grad e: i guess that 's it . phd a: ok , uh , do you wan na go , sunil ? phd b: yep . um , so , the last two weeks was , like so i 've been working on that wiener filtering . and , uh , found that , uh , s single like , i just do a s normal wiener filtering , like the standard method of wiener filtering . and that does n't actually give me any improvement over like i mean , uh , b it actually improves over the baseline but it 's not like it does n't meet something like fifty percent or something . so , i 've been playing with the v phd a: improves over the base line mfcc system ? yeah . phd b: yeah . yeah . yeah . so , um so that 's the improvement is somewhere around , like , thirty percent over the baseline . professor c: is that using in combination with something else ? phd b: no , just just one stage wiener filter professor c: with with a phd b: which is a standard wiener filter . professor c: no , no , but i mean in combination with our on - line normalization or with the lda ? phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . so i just plug in the wiener filtering . professor c: oh , ok . phd b: i mean , in the s in our system , where phd a: oh , ok . phd b: so , i di i di professor c: so , does it g does that mean it gets worse ? or ? phd b: no . it actually improves over the baseline of not having a wiener filter in the whole system . like i have an lda f lda plus on - line normalization , and then i plug in the wiener filter in that , professor c: yeah ? phd b: so it improves over not having the wiener filter . so it improves but it it does n't take it like be beyond like thirty percent over the baseline . so professor c: but that 's what i 'm confused about , cuz i think i thought that our system was more like forty percent without the wiener filtering . phd b: no , it 's like , uh , phd d: mmm . phd a: is this with the v new vad ? phd b: well , these are not no , it 's the old vad . so my baseline was , uh , nine this is like w the baseline is ninety - five point six eight , and eighty - nine , and professor c: so i mean , if you can do all these in word errors it 's a lot a lot easier actually . phd b: what was that ? sorry ? professor c: if you do all these in word error rates it 's a lot easier , right ? phd b: oh , ok , ok , ok . errors , right , i do n't have . professor c: ok , cuz then you can figure out the percentages . phd b: it 's all accuracies . professor c: yeah . phd d: the baseline is something similar to a w i mean , the t the the baseline that you are talking about is the mfcc baseline , right ? phd b: the t yeah , there are two baselines . phd d: or ? phd b: ok . so the baseline one baseline is mfcc baseline that when i said thirty percent improvement it 's like mfcc baseline . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so so so what 's it start on ? the mfcc baseline is is what ? is at what level ? phd b: it 's the it 's just the mel frequency and that 's it . professor c: no , what 's what 's the number ? phd b: uh , so i i do n't have that number here . ok , ok , ok , i have it here . uh , it 's the vad plus the baseline actually . i 'm talking about the the mfcc plus i do a frame dropping on it . so that 's like the word error rate is like four point three . like ten point seven . professor c: four point three . what 's ten point seven ? phd b: it 's a medium misma ok , sorry . there 's a well ma well matched , medium mismatched , and a high matched . professor c: ah . phd b: so i do n't have the like the professor c: yeah . phd b: so professor c: ok , four point three , ten point seven , phd b: and forty forty . professor c: and phd b: forty percent is the high mismatch . professor c: ok . phd b: and that becomes like four point three professor c: not changed . phd b: yeah , it 's like ten point one . still the same . and the high mismatch is like eighteen point five . professor c: eighteen point five . phd b: five . professor c: and what were you just describing ? phd b: oh , the one is this one is just the baseline plus the , uh , wiener filter plugged into it . professor c: but where 's the , uh , on - line normalization and so on ? phd b: oh , ok . so sorry . so , with the with the on - line normalization , the performance was , um , ten ok , so it 's like four point three . uh , and again , that 's the ba the ten point , uh , four and twenty point one . that was with on - line normalization and lda . so the h well matched has like literally not changed by adding on - line or lda on it . but the i mean , even the medium mismatch is pretty much the same . and the high mismatch was improved by twenty percent absolute . professor c: ok , and what kind of number an and what are we talking about here ? phd b: it 's the it - it 's italian . professor c: is this ti - digits phd b: i 'm talking about italian , professor c: or italian ? phd b: yeah . professor c: and what did so , what was the , um , uh , corresponding number , say , for , um , uh , the alcatel system for instance ? phd b: mmm . professor c: do you know ? phd d: yeah , so it looks to be , um phd b: you have it ? phd d: yep , it 's three point four , uh , eight point , uh , seven , and , uh , thirteen point seven . phd b: yep . professor c: ok . phd b: so thanks . professor c: ok . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: ok . phd b: so , uh , this is the single stage wiener filter , with the noise estimation was based on first ten frames . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: actually i started with using the vad to estimate the noise and then i found that it works it does n't work for finnish and spanish because the vad endpoints are not good to estimate the noise because it cuts into the speech sometimes , so i end up overestimating the noise and getting a worse result . so it works only for italian by u for using a vad to estimate noise . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: it works for italian because the vad was trained on italian . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: so , uh so this was , uh and so this was giving um , this this was like not improving a lot on this baseline of not having the wiener filter on it . and , so , uh , i ran this stuff with one more stage of wiener filtering on it but the second time , what i did was i estimated the new wiener filter based on the cleaned up speech , and did , uh , smoothing in the frequency to to reduce the variance professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean , i have i 've i 've observed there are , like , a lot of bumps in the frequency when i do this wiener filtering which is more like a musical noise or something . and so by adding another stage of wiener filtering , the results on the speechdat - car was like , um so , i still do n't have the word error rate . i 'm sorry about it . but the overall improvement was like fifty - six point four six . this was again using ten frames of noise estimate and two stage of wiener filtering . and the rest is like the lda plu and the on - line normalization all remaining the same . uh , so this was , like , compared to , uh , uh fifty - seven is what you got by using the french telecom system , right ? phd d: no , i do n't think so . phd b: y i phd d: is it on italian ? phd b: no , this is over the whole speechdat - car . so phd d: oh , yeah , fifty - seven phd b: point phd d: right . phd b: yeah , so the new the new wiener filtering schema is like some fifty - six point four six which is like one percent still less than what you got using the french telecom system . phd d: uh - huh . mm - hmm . professor c: but it 's a pretty similar number in any event . phd b: it 's very similar . professor c: yeah . but again , you 're you 're more or less doing what they were doing , right ? phd b: it 's it 's different in a sense like i 'm actually cleaning up the cleaned up spectrum which they 're not doing . they 're d what they 're doing is , they have two stage stages of estimating the wiener filter , but the final filter , what they do is they they take it to their time domain by doing an inverse fourier transform . professor c: yeah . phd b: and they filter the original signal using that fil filter , professor c: uh - huh . phd b: which is like final filter is acting on the input noisy speech rather than on the cleaned up . so this is more like i 'm doing wiener filter twice , but the only thing is that the second time i 'm actually smoothing the filter and then cleaning up the cleaned up spectrum first level . and so that that 's that 's what the difference is . professor c: ok . phd b: and actually i tried it on s the original clean i mean , the original spectrum where , like , i the second time i estimate the filter but actually clean up the noisy speech rather the c s first output of the first stage and that does n't seems to be a giving , i mean , that much improvement . i i didn did n't run it for the whole case . and and what i t what i tried was , by using the same thing but uh , so we actually found that the vad is very , like , crucial . i mean , just by changing the vad itself gives you the a lot of improvement professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: by instead of using the current vad , if you just take up the vad output from the channel zero , { comment } when instead of using channel zero and channel one , because that was the p that was the reason why i was not getting a lot of improvement for estimating { comment } the noise . so i just used the channel zero vad to estimate the noise so that it gives me some reliable mar markers for this noise estimation . professor c: what 's a channel zero vad ? phd b: um , professor c: i 'm i 'm confused about that . phd b: so , it 's like phd d: so it 's the close - talking microphone . phd b: yeah , the close - talking without professor c: oh , oh , oh , oh . phd b: so because the channel zero and channel one are like the same speech , but only w i mean , the same endpoints . professor c: phd b: but the only thing is that the speech is very noisy for channel one , so you can actually use the output of the channel zero for channel one for the vad . i mean , that 's like a cheating method . professor c: right . i mean , so a are they going to pro what are they doing to do , do we know yet ? about as far as what they 're what the rules are going to be and what we can use ? phd d: yeah , so actually i received a a new document , describing this . phd b: yeah , that 's phd d: and what they did finally is to , mmm , uh , not to align the utterances but to perform recognition , um , only on the close - talking microphone , phd b: which is the channel zero . phd d: and to take the result of the recognition to get the boundaries uh , of speech . professor c: so it 's not like that 's being done in one place or one time . phd d: and professor c: that 's that 's just a rule and we 'd you you were permitted to do that . is is that it ? phd d: uh , i think they will send , um , files but we we do n't well , apparently professor c: oh , so they will send files so everybody will have the same boundaries to work with ? phd d: yeah . yeah . phd b: but actually their alignment actually is not seems to be improving in like on all cases . professor c: ok . phd d: oh , i yeah , so what happened here is that , um , the overall improvement that they have with this method so well , to be more precise , what they have is , they have these alignments and then they drop the beginning silence and and the end silence but they keep , uh , two hundred milliseconds before speech and two hundred after speech . and they keep the speech pauses also . um , and the overall improvement over the mfcc baseline so , when they just , uh , add this frame dropping in addition it 's r uh , forty percent , right ? professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: fourteen percent , i mean . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah , which is phd d: um , which is , um , t which is the overall improvement . but in some cases it does n't improve at all . like , uh , y do you remember which case ? professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: it gives like negative well , in in like some italian and ti - digits , phd d: yeah , some @ @ . phd b: right ? phd d: right . phd b: yeah . so by using the endpointed speech , actually it 's worse than the baseline in some instances , which could be due to the word pattern . phd d: mmm . yeah . professor c: yeah , phd d: and yeah , the other thing also is that fourteen percent is less than what you obtain using a real vad . phd b: yeah , our neural net phd d: so with without cheating like this . phd b: yeah , yeah . phd d: so uh so i think this shows that there is still work uh , well , working on the vad is still still important i think . professor c: yeah , c phd d: uh phd a: can i ask just a a high level question ? can you just say like one or two sentences about wiener filtering and why why are people doing that ? phd b: hmm . phd a: what 's what 's the deal with that ? phd b: ok , so the wiener filter , it 's it 's like it 's like you try to minimize i mean , so the basic principle of wiener filter is like you try to minimize the , uh , d uh , difference between the noisy signal and the clean signal if you have two channels . like let 's say you have a clean t signal and you have an additional channel where you know what is the noisy signal . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: and then you try to minimize the error between these two . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: so that 's the basic principle . and you get you can do that i mean , if if you have only a c noisy signal , at a level which you , you w try to estimate the noise from the w assuming that the first few frames are noise or if you have a w voice activity detector , uh , you estimate the noise spectrum . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: and then you phd a: do you assume the noise is the same ? phd b: yeah . in yeah , after the speech starts . phd a: uh - huh . phd b: so but that 's not the case in , uh , many many of our cases but it works reasonably well . phd a: i see . phd b: and and then you what you do is you , uh b fff . so again , i can write down some of these eq oh , ok . yeah . and then you do this uh , this is the transfer function of the wiener filter , so `` sf `` is a clean speech spectrum , power spectrum phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: and `` n `` is the noisy power spectrum . and so this is the transfer function . professor c: right phd b: and , professor c: actually , i guess phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd b: and then you multiply your noisy power spectrum with this . you get an estimate of the clean power spectrum . phd a: i see . ok . phd b: so but the thing is that you have to estimate the sf from the noisy spectrum , what you have . so you estimate the nf from the initial noise portions and then you subtract that from the current noisy spectrum to get an estimate of the sf . so sometimes that becomes zero because you do you do n't have a true estimate of the noise . so the f filter will have like sometimes zeros in it phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: because some frequency values will be zeroed out because of that . and that creates a lot of discontinuities across the spectrum because @ @ the filter . so , uh , so that 's what that was just the first stage of wiener filtering that i tried . phd a: so is this , um , basically s uh , similar to just regular spectral subtraction ? phd b: it professor c: it 's all pretty related , phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah . it 's it 's there 's a di there 's a whole class of techniques where you try in some sense to minimize the noise . phd a: uh - huh . professor c: and it 's typically a mean square sense , uh uh uh , i in in in some way . and , uh uh , spectral subtraction is is , uh uh , one approach to it . phd a: do people use the wiener filtering in combination with the spectral subtraction typically , or is i are they sort of competing techniques ? phd b: not seen . they are very s similar techniques . phd a: yeah . o oh , ok . phd b: so it 's like i have n't seen anybody using s wiener filter with spectral subtraction . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: i see , i see . professor c: i mean , in the long run you 're doing the same thing phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . professor c: but y but there you make different approximations , and in spectral subtraction , for instance , there 's a a an estimation factor . phd a: mmm . professor c: you sometimes will figure out what the noise is and you 'll multiply that noise spectrum times some constant and subtract that rather than and sometimes people even though this really should be in the power domain , sometimes people s work in the magnitude domain because it it it works better . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and , uh , uh , you know . phd a: so why did you choose , uh , wiener filtering over some other one of these other techniques ? phd b: uh , the reason was , like , we had this choice of using spectral subtraction , wiener filtering , and there was one more thing which i which i 'm trying , is this sub space approach . so , stephane is working on spectral subtraction . phd a: oh , ok . phd b: so i picked up phd a: so you 're sort of trying @ @ them all . phd b: y yeah , phd a: ah , phd b: we just wanted to have a few noise production compensation techniques phd a: i see . oh , ok . phd b: and then pick some from that phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: pick one . professor c: i m i mean yeah , i mean , there 's car - carmen 's working on another , on the vector taylor series . phd b: va yeah , vad . w yeah . professor c: so they were just kind of trying to cover a bunch of different things with this task and see , you know , what are what are the issues for each of them . phd a: ah , ok . that makes sense . phd b: yeah . phd a: yeah . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: um . phd a: cool , thanks . phd b: so so one of one of the things that i tried , like i said , was to remove those zeros in the fri filter by doing some smoothing of the filter . professor c: yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: like , you estimate the edge of square and then you do a f smoothing across the frequency so that those zeros get , like , flattened out . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: and that does n't seems to be improving by trying it on the first time . so what i did was like i p did this and then you i plugged in the one more the same thing but with the smoothed filter the second time . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: and that seems to be working . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: so that 's where i got like fifty - six point five percent improvement on speechdat - car with that . and so the other thing what i tried was i used still the ten frames of noise estimate but i used this channel zero vad to drop the frames . so i 'm not still not estimating . and that has taken the performance to like sixty - seven percent in speechdat - car , which is which which like sort of shows that by using a proper vad you can just take it to further , better levels . and so . phd a: so that 's sort of like , you know , best - case performance ? phd b: yeah , so far i 've seen sixty - seven i mean , no , i have n't seen s like sixty - seven percent . and , uh , using the channel zero vad to estimate the noise also seems to be improving but i do n't have the results for all the cases with that . so i used channel zero vad to estimate noise as a lesser 2 x frame , which is like , everywhere i use the channel zero vad . and that seems to be the best combination , uh , rather than using a few frames to estimate and then drop a channel . professor c: so i 'm i 'm still a little confused . is that channel zero information going to be accessible during this test . phd b: nnn , no . this is just to test whether we can really improve by using a better vad . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: so , professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean so this is like the noise compensation f is fixed phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: but you make a better decision on the endpoints . that 's , like seems to be professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: so we c so i mean , which which means , like , by using this technique what we improve just the vad professor c: yes . phd b: we can just take the performance by another ten percent or better . professor c: ok . phd b: so , that that was just the , uh , reason for doing that experiment . and , w um yeah , but this all these things , i have to still try it on the ti - digits , which is like i 'm just running . and there seems to be not improving a a lot on the ti - digits , so i 'm like investigating that , why it 's not . and , um , um well after that . so , uh so the other the other thing is like i 've been i 'm doing all this stuff on the power spectrum . so tried this stuff on the mel as well mel and the magnitude , and mel magnitude , and all those things . but it seems to be the power spectrum seems to be getting the best result . so , one of one of reasons i thought like doing the averaging , after the filtering using the mel filter bank , that seems to be maybe helping rather than trying it on the mel filter ba filtered outputs . professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd b: so just th professor c: ma makes sense . phd b: yeah , th that 's that 's the only thing that i could think of why why it 's giving improvement on the mel . and , yep . so that 's it . professor c: uh , how about the subspace stuff ? phd b: subspace , { comment } i 'm i 'm like that 's still in a little bit in the back burner because i 've been p putting a lot effort on this to make it work , on tuning things and other stuff . professor c: ok . phd b: so i was like going parallely but not much of improvement . i 'm just have some skeletons ready , need some more time for it . professor c: ok . phd b: mmm . phd a: tha - that it ? phd b: yep . yep . phd a: cool . do you wan na go , stephane ? phd d: uh , yeah . so , i 've been , uh , working still on the spectral subtraction . um , so to r to remind you a little bit of of what i did before , is just to apply some spectral subtraction with an overestimation factor also to get , um , an estimate of the noise , uh , spectrum , and subtract this estimation of the noise spectrum from the , uh , signal spectrum , { comment } but subtracting more when the snr is is , uh , low , which is a technique that it 's often used . phd a: `` subtracting more `` , meaning ? phd d: so you overestimate the noise spectrum . you multiply the noise spectrum by a factor , uh , which depends on the snr . phd a: oh , ok . i see . phd d: so , above twenty db , it 's one , so you just subtract the noise . phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: and then it 's b generally well , i use , actually , a linear , uh , function of the snr , phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: which is bounded to , like , two or three , { comment } when the snr is below zero db . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: um , doing just this , uh , either on the fft bins or on the mel bands , um , t does n't yield any improvement professor c: oh ! um , uh , what are you doing with negative , uh , powers ? phd d: o yeah . so there is also a threshold , of course , because after subtraction you can have negative energies , phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: and so what i i just do is to put , uh to to add to put the threshold first and then to add a small amount of noise , which right now is speech - shaped . um phd a: speech - shaped ? phd d: yeah , so it 's a it has the overall overall energy , uh pow it has the overall power spectrum of speech . so with a bump around one kilohertz . phd a: so when y when you talk about there being something less than zero after subtracting the noise , is that at a particular frequency bin ? phd d: i uh - huh . yeah . phd a: ok . phd d: there can be frequency bins with negative values . phd a: and so when you say you 're adding something that has the overall shape of speech , is that in a in a particular frequency bin ? or you 're adding something across all the frequencies when you get these negatives ? phd d: for each frequencies i a i 'm adding some , uh , noise , but the a the amount of the amount of noise i add is not the same for all the frequency bins . phd a: ah ! ok . i gotcha . right . phd d: uh . right now i do n't think if it makes sense to add something that 's speech - shaped , because then you have silence portion that have some spectra similar to the sp the overall speech spectra . phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: but yeah . so this is something i can still work on , phd a: so what does that mean ? phd d: but hmm . phd a: i 'm trying to understand what it means when you do the spectral subtraction and you get a negative . it means that at that particular frequency range you subtracted more energy than there was actually phd d: that means that mm - hmm . yeah . so so yeah , you have an an estimation of the noise spectrum , but sometimes , of course , it 's as the noise is not perfectly stationary , sometimes this estimation can be , uh , too small , so you do n't subtract enough . but sometimes it can be too large also . if if the noise , uh , energy in this particular frequency band drops for some reason . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: mmm . phd a: so in in an ideal word i world { comment } if the noise were always the same , then , when you subtracted it the worst that i you would get would be a zero . i mean , the lowest you would get would be a zero , cuz i if there was no other energy there you 're just subtracting exactly the noise . professor c: right . phd d: mm - hmm , professor c: yep , there 's all there 's all sorts of , uh , deviations from the ideal here . phd d: yeah . professor c: i mean , for instance , you 're you 're talking about the signal and noise , um , at a particular point . and even if something is sort of stationary in ster terms of statistics , there 's no guarantee that any particular instantiation or piece of it is exactly a particular number or bounded by a particular range . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so , you 're figuring out from some chunk of of of the signal what you think the noise is . then you 're subtracting that from another chunk , phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and there 's absolutely no reason to think that you 'd know that it would n't , uh , be negative in some places . phd d: mm - hmm . hmm . professor c: uh , on the other hand that just means that in some sense you 've made a mistake because you certainly have stra subtracted a bigger number than is due to the noise . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: um also , we speak the whole where all this stuff comes from is from an assumption that signal and noise are uncorrelated . and that certainly makes sense in s in in a statistical interpretation , that , you know , over , um , all possible realizations that they 're uncorrelated phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: or assuming , uh , ergodicity that i that i um , across time , uh , it 's uncorrelated . but if you just look at a quarter second , uh , and you cross - multiply the two things , uh , you could very well , uh , end up with something that sums to something that 's not zero . so in fact , the two signals could have some relation to one another . and so there 's all sorts of deviations from ideal in this . and and given all that , you could definitely end up with something that 's negative . but if down the road you 're making use of something as if it is a power spectrum , um , then it can be bad to have something negative . now , the other thing i wonder about actually is , what if you left it negative ? what happens ? phd b: is that the log ? professor c: i mean , because um , are you taking the log before you add them up to the mel ? phd b: after that . no , after . professor c: right . so the thing is , i wonder how if you put your thresholds after that , i wonder how often you would end up with , uh with negative values . phd b: but you will but you end up reducing some neighboring frequency bins @ @ in the average , right ? when you add the negative to the positive value which is the true estimate . professor c: yeah . but nonetheless , uh , you know , these are it 's another f kind of smoothing , right ? that you 're doing . phd b: yeah . professor c: right . so , you 've done your best shot at figuring out what the noise should be , and now i then you 've subtracted it off . and then after that , instead of instead of , uh , uh , leaving it as is and adding things adding up some neighbors , you artificially push it up . phd b: hmm . professor c: which is , you know , it 's there 's no particular reason that that 's the right thing to do either , right ? phd b: yeah , yeah . professor c: so , um , uh , i in fact , what you 'd be doing is saying , `` well , we 're d we 're we 're going to definitely diminish the effect of this frequency in this little frequency bin in the in the overall mel summation `` . it 's just a thought . i d i do n't know if it would be phd a: sort of the opposite of that would be if if you find out you 're going to get a negative number , you do n't do the subtraction for that bin . phd b: yeah . uh - huh . that is true . professor c: nnn , yeah , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: although phd a: that would be almost the opposite , right ? instead of leaving it negative , you do n't do it . if your if your subtraction 's going to result in a negative number , you you do n't do subtraction in that . professor c: yeah , but that means that in a situation where you thought that that the bin was almost entirely noise , you left it . phd a: yeah . yeah , i 'm just saying that 's like the opposite . phd b: we just professor c: uh . phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd a: yeah . professor c: well , yeah that 's that 's the opposite , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah . phd d: and , yeah , some people also if it 's a negative value they , uh , re - compute it using inter interpolation from the edges and bins . phd b: for frames , frequency bins . professor c: yeah . phd d: well , there are different things that you can do . phd a: oh . professor c: people can also , uh , reflect it back up and essentially do a full wave rectification instead of a instead of half wave . phd a: oh . professor c: but it was just a thought that that it might be something to try . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . yep . well , actually i tried , something else based on this , um , is to to put some smoothing , um , because it seems to to help or it seems to help the wiener filtering professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and , mmm so what i did is , uh , some kind of nonlinear smoothing . actually i have a recursion that computes yeah , let me go back a little bit . actually , when you do spectral subtraction you can , uh , find this this equivalent in the s in the spectral domain . you can uh compute , y you can say that d your spectral subtraction is a filter , um , and the gain of this filter is the , um , signal energy minus what you subtract , divided by the signal energy . and this is a gain that varies over time , and , you know , of course , uh , depending on the s on the noise spectrum and on the speech spectrum . and what happen actually is that during low snr values , the gain is close to zero but it varies a lot . mmm , and this this is the cause of musical noise and all these the { comment } the fact you we go below zero one frame and then you can have an energy that 's above zero . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and mmm . so the smoothing is i did a smoothing actually on this gain , uh , trajectory . but it 's the smoothing is nonlinear in the sense that i tried to not smooth if the gain is high , because in this case we know that , uh , the estimate of the gain is correct because we we are not close to to to zero , um , and to do more smoothing if the gain is low . mmm . um . yeah . so , well , basically that 's this idea , and it seems to give pretty good results , uh , although i 've just just tested on italian and finnish . and on italian it seems my result seems to be a little bit better than the wiener filtering , phd b: mm - hmm . yeah , the one you showed yesterday . phd d: right ? phd b: right ? professor c: yeah . phd d: uh , i do n't know if you have these improvement the detailed improvements for italian , finnish , and spanish there phd b: fff . no , i do n't have , for each , phd d: or you have just have your own . phd b: i i just just have the final number here . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so these numbers he was giving before with the four point three , and the ten point one , and so forth , those were italian , right ? phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah . so so , no , professor c: yeah . phd d: uh phd b: i actually did n't give you the number which is the final one , phd d: uh , no , we 've phd b: which is , after two stages of wiener filtering . i mean , that was i just well , like the overall improvement is like fifty - six point five . so , professor c: right . phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean , his number is still better than what i got in the two stages of wiener filtering . phd d: yeah . professor c: right . phd d: on italian . but on finnish it 's a little bit worse , apparently . phd b: mm - hmm . phd d: um professor c: but do you have numbers in terms of word error rates on on italian ? so just so you have some sense of reference ? phd d: yeah . uh , so , it 's , uh , three point , uh , eight . professor c: uh - huh . phd d: am i right ? phd b: oh , ok . yeah , right , ok . phd d: and then , uh , d uh , nine point , uh , one . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and finally , uh , sixteen point five . professor c: and this is , um , spectral subtraction plus what ? phd d: plus plus nonlinear smoothing . well , it 's the system it 's exactly the sys the same system as sunil tried , professor c: on - line normalization and lda ? phd d: but professor c: yeah . yeah . phd d: yeah . but instead of double stage wiener filtering , it 's it 's this smoothed spectral subtraction . um , yeah . phd a: what is it the , um , france telecom system uses professor c: right . phd a: for do they use spectral subtraction , or wiener filtering , or ? phd b: they use spectral subtraction , right . phd d: for what ? phd b: french telecom . phd d: it it 's wiener filtering , phd b: oh , it 's it 's wiener filtering . phd d: am i right ? phd a: oh . phd b: sorry . phd d: well , it 's some kind of wiener filtering phd b: yeah , filtering . yeah , it 's not exactly wiener filtering but some variant of wiener filtering . phd d: yeah . phd a: i see . phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah , plus , uh , i guess they have some sort of cepstral normalization , as well . phd b: s they have like yeah , th the just noise compensation technique is a variant of wiener filtering , phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: plus they do some some smoothing techniques on the final filter . the th they actually do the filtering in the time domain . phd a: mmm . phd d: yeah . phd a: hmm . phd b: so they would take this hf squared back , taking inverse fourier transform . and they convolve the time domain signal with that . phd a: oh , i see . phd b: and they do some smoothing on that final filter , impulse response . phd a: hmm . phd d: but they also have two two different smoothing @ @ . phd b: i mean , i 'm i 'm @ @ . phd d: one in the time domain and one in the frequency domain by just taking the first , um , coefficients of the impulse response . phd b: but . phd d: so , basically it 's similar . i mean , what you did , it 's similar phd b: it 's similar in the smoothing and phd d: because you have also two two kind of smoothing . phd b: yeah . phd d: one in the time domain , and one in the frequency domain , phd b: yeah . the frequency domain . phd d: yeah . phd a: does the smoothing in the time domain help phd d: um phd a: well , do you get this musical noise stuff with wiener filtering or is that only with , uh , spectral subtraction ? phd b: no , you get it with wiener filtering also . phd d: yeah . phd a: does the smoothing in the time domain help with that ? or some other smoothing ? phd b: oh , no , you still end up with zeros in the s spectrum . sometimes . phd d: yeah . phd a: hmm . professor c: i mean , it 's not clear that these musical noises hurt us in recognition . phd a: hmm . professor c: we do n't know if they do . phd b: yeah . professor c: i mean , they they sound bad . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah , i know . professor c: but we 're not listening to it , usually . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: hmm . phd d: uh , actually the the smoothing that i did do here reduced the musical noise . well , it phd b: mm - hmm . yeah , yeah , phd d: mmm . phd b: the phd d: well , i can not you can not hear beca well , actually what i d did not say is that this is not in the fft bins . this is in the mel frequency bands . um so , it could be seen as a f a a smoothing in the frequency domain because i used , in ad mel bands in addition and then the other phase of smoothing in the time domain . mmm . but , when you look at the spectrogram , if you do n't have an any smoothing , you clearly see , like in silence portions , and at the beginning and end of speech , you see spots of high energy randomly distributed over the the spectrogram . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: um phd a: that 's the musical noise ? phd d: which is musical noise , phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah , if if it if you listen to it uh , if you do this in the fft bins , then you have spots of energy randomly distributing . and if you f if you re - synthesize these spot sounds as , like , sounds , phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: uh professor c: well , none of these systems , by the way , have i mean , y you both are are working with , um , our system that does not have the neural net , phd d: and phd b: yep . professor c: right ? phd b: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: ok . so one would hope , presumably , that the neural net part of it would would improve things further as as they did before . phd d: yeah . yeah . um yeah , although if if we , um , look at the result from the proposals , { comment } one of the reason , uh , the n system with the neural net was , um , more than well , around five percent better , is that it was much better on highly mismatched condition . i 'm thinking , for instance , on the ti - digits trained on clean speech and tested on noisy speech . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: uh , for this case , the system with the neural net was much better . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: but not much on the in the other cases . professor c: yeah . phd d: and if we have no , uh , spectral subtraction or wiener filtering , um , i the system is uh , we thought the neural neural network is much better than before , even in these cases of high mismatch . so , maybe the neural net will help less but , um professor c: maybe . phd a: could you train a neural net to do spectral subtraction ? professor c: yeah , it could do a nonlinear spectral subtraction phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: but i do n't know if it i mean , you have to figure out what your targets are . phd a: yeah , i was thinking if you had a clean version of the signal and and a noisy version , and your targets were the m f - uh , you know , whatever , frequency bins phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: right . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah , well , that 's not so much spectral subtraction then , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: but but but it 's but at any rate , yeah , people , uh phd a: people do that ? professor c: y yeah , in fact , we had visitors here who did that i think when you were here ba way back when . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: hmm . professor c: uh , people d done lots of experimentation over the years with training neural nets . and it 's not a bad thing to do . it 's another approach . phd a: hmm . professor c: m i mean , it 's it , um phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: the objection everyone always raises , which has some truth to it is that , um , it 's good for mapping from a particular noise to clean but then you get a different noise . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and the experiments we saw that visitors did here showed that it there was at least some , um , { comment } gentleness to the degradation when you switched to different noises . it did seem to help . so that you 're right , that 's another another way to go . phd a: how did it compare on i mean , for for good cases where it it uh , stuff that it was trained on ? did it do pretty well ? professor c: oh , yeah , it did very well . phd a: mmm . professor c: yeah . phd a: mmm . professor c: um , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: but to some extent that 's kind of what we 're doing . i mean , we 're not doing exactly that , we 're not trying to generate good examples but by trying to do the best classifier you possibly can , for these little phonetic categories , phd a: mm - hmm . you could say it 's sort of built in . professor c: it 's yeah , it 's kind of built into that . phd a: hmm . professor c: and and that 's why we have found that it it does help . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: um so , um , yeah , i mean , we 'll just have to try it . but i i would i would i would imagine that it will help some . i mean , it we 'll just have to see whether it helps more or less the same , but i would imagine it would help some . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so in any event , all of this i was just confirming that all of this was with a simpler system . phd d: yeah , professor c: ok ? phd d: yeah . um , yeah , so this is th the , um well , actually , this was kind of the first try with this spectral subtraction plus smoothing , professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and i was kind of excited by the result . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: um , then i started to optimize the different parameters . and , uh , the first thing i tried to optimize is the , um , time constant of the smoothing . and it seems that the one that i chose for the first experiment was the optimal one , so uh , professor c: it 's amazing how often that happens . phd d: um , so this is the first thing . um yeah , another thing that i it 's important to mention is , um , that this has a this has some additional latency . um . because when i do the smoothing , uh , it 's a recursion that estimated the means , so of the g of the gain curve . and this is a filter that has some latency . and i noticed that it 's better if we take into account this latency . so , instead o of using the current estimated mean to , uh , subtract the current frame , it 's better to use an estimate that 's some somewhere in the future . um phd a: and that 's what causes the latency ? ok . phd b: you mean , the m the mean is computed o based on some frames in the future also ? professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . phd b: or or no ? phd d: it 's the recursion , so it 's it 's the center recursion , right ? phd b: mm - hmm . phd d: um and the latency of this recursion is around fifty milliseconds . professor c: one five ? phd d: professor c: one five ? five zero ? phd d: five zero , professor c: five zero . phd d: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd d: um , phd b: i 'm sorry , phd d: mmm . phd b: why why is that delay coming ? like , you estimate the mean ? phd d: yeah , the mean estimation has some delay , right ? phd b: oh , yeah . phd d: i mean , the the filter that that estimates the mean has a time constant . phd b: it is n't ok , so it 's like it looks into the future also . ok . phd d: yeah . professor c: what if you just look into the past ? phd d: it 's , uh , not as good . it 's not bad . professor c: how m by how much ? phd d: um , it helps a lot over the ba the baseline but , mmm professor c: by how much ? phd d: it it 's around three percent , um , relative . professor c: worse . phd d: yeah . yeah . um , professor c: hmm . phd d: mmm so , uh professor c: it 's depending on how all this stuff comes out we may or may not be able to add any latency . phd d: yeah , but yeah . so , yeah , it depends . uh , y actually , it 's it 's l it 's three percent . right . mmm . yeah , b but i do n't think we have to worry too much on that right now while you kno . mm - hmm . professor c: um , s yeah , i mean , i think the only thing is that phd d: so professor c: i would worry about it a little . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: because if we completely ignore latency , and then we discover that we really have to do something about it , we 're going to be find ourselves in a bind . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so , um , you know , maybe you could make it twenty - five . you know what i mean ? phd d: yeah . professor c: yeah , just , you know , just be be a little conservative phd d: oh yes . professor c: because we may end up with this crunch where all of a sudden we have to cut the latency in half or something . phd d: s mm - hmm . yeah . professor c: ok . phd d: um . so , yeah , there are other things in the , um , algorithm that i did n't , uh , @ @ a lot yet , phd a: oh ! phd d: which phd a: sorry . a quick question just about the latency thing . if if there 's another part of the system that causes a latency of a hundred milliseconds , is this an additive thing ? or c or is yours hidden in that ? phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: uh phd d: no , it 's it 's added . phd a: it 's additive . ok . phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: we can ok . we can do something in parallel also , in some like some cases like , if you wanted to do voice activity detection . phd a: uh - huh . phd b: and we can do that in parallel with some other filtering you can do . phd d: mmm . phd b: so you can make a decision on that voice activity detection and then you decide whether you want to filter or not . phd d: yeah . phd b: but by then you already have the sufficient samples to do the filtering . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: so so , sometimes you can do it anyway . phd a: i mean , could n't , uh i could n't you just also i mean , i if you know that the l the largest latency in the system is two hundred milliseconds , do n't you could n't you just buffer up that number of frames and then everything uses that buffer ? phd b: yeah . phd a: and that way it 's not additive ? professor c: well , in fact , everything is sent over in buffers cuz of is n't it the tcp buffer some ? phd b: you mean , the the data , the super frame or something ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah , yeah . phd d: yeah . phd b: yeah , but that has a variable latency because the last frame does n't have any latency phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: and first frame has a twenty framed latency . so you ca n't r rely on that latency all the time . professor c: yeah . phd b: because i mean the transmission over over the air interface is like a buffer . phd d: yeah . phd b: twenty frame phd a: yeah . phd b: twenty four frames . phd a: yeah . phd b: so but the only thing is that the first frame in that twenty - four frame buffer has a twenty - four frame latency . and the last frame does n't have any latency . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: because it just goes as phd a: yeah , i was n't thinking of that one in particular phd b: yeah . phd a: but more of , you know , if if there is some part of your system that has to buffer twenty frames , uh , ca n't the other parts of the system draw out of that buffer and therefore not add to the latency ? professor c: yeah . yeah . and and that 's sort of one of the all of that sort of stuff is things that they 're debating in their standards committee . phd a: oh ! hmm . phd d: mm - hmm . yeah . so , um , there is uh , { comment } these parameters that i still have to to look at . like , i played a little bit with this overestimation factor , uh , but i still have to to look more at this , um , at the level of noise i add after . uh , i know that adding noise helped , um , the system just using spectral subtraction without smoothing , but i do n't know right now if it 's still important or not , and if the level i choose before is still the right one . same thing for the shape of the the noise . maybe it would be better to add just white noise instead of speech shaped noise . professor c: that 'd be more like the jrasta thing in a sense . yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . um , yep . uh , and another thing is to yeah , for this i just use as noise estimate the mean , uh , spectrum of the first twenty frames of each utterance . i do n't remember for this experiment what did you use for these two stage phd b: i used ten just ten frames . yeah , because phd d: the ten frames ? phd b: i mean , the reason was like in ti - digits i do n't have a lot . i had twenty frames most of the time . phd d: mm - hmm . um . but , so what 's this result you told me about , the fact that if you use more than ten frames you can improve by t phd b: well , that 's that 's using the channel zero . if i use a channel zero vad to estimate the noise . phd d: oh , ok . phd b: which phd d: but this is ten frames plus plus phd b: channel zero dropping . phd d: channel phd b: hmm . phd d: uh , no , these results with two stage wiener filtering is ten frames phd b: t oh , this phd d: but possibly more . i mean , if channel one vad gives you phd b: f yeah . mm - hmm . yeah . phd d: yeah . ok . yeah , but in this experiment i did i did n't use any vad . i just used the twenty first frame to estimate the noise . and so i expected it to be a little bit better , if , uh , i use more more frames . um . ok , that 's it for spectral subtraction . the second thing i was working on is to , um , try to look at noise estimation , { comment } mmm , and using some technique that does n't need voice activity detection . um , and for this i u simply used some code that , uh , i had from from belgium , which is technique that , um , takes a bunch of frame , um , and for each frequency bands of this frame , takes a look at the minima of the energy . and then average these minima and take this as an an energy estimate of the noise for this particular frequency band . and there is something more to this actually . what is done is that , uh , these minima are computed , um , based on , um , high resolution spectra . so , i compute an fft based on the long , uh , signal frame which is sixty - four millisecond phd a: so you have one minimum for each frequency ? phd d: what what i what i d uh , i do actually , is to take a bunch of to take a tile on the spectrogram and this tile is five hundred milliseconds long and two hundred hertz wide . phd a: mmm . phd d: and this tile uh , in this tile appears , like , the harmonics if you have a voiced sound , because it 's it 's the ftt bins . and when you take the m the minima of of these this tile , when you do n't have speech , these minima will give you some noise level estimate , if you have voiced speech , these minima will still give you some noise estimate because the minima are between the harmonics . and if you have other other kind of speech sounds then it 's not the case , but if the time frame is long enough , uh , like s five hundred milliseconds seems to be long enough , { comment } you still have portions which , uh , are very close whi which minima are very close to the noise energy . professor c: i 'm confused . you said five hundred milliseconds phd d: mmm ? professor c: but you said sixty - four milliseconds . which is which ? what ? phd d: sixty - four milliseconds is to compute the fft , uh , bins . professor c: yeah , phd d: the the fft . professor c: yeah . phd d: um , actually it 's better to use sixty - four milliseconds because , um , if you use thirty milliseconds , then , uh , because of the this short windowing and at low pitch , uh , sounds , the harmonics are not , wha uh , correctly separated . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: so if you take these minima , it b they will overestimate the noise a lot . professor c: so you take sixty - four millisecond f f ts and then you average them { comment } over five hundred ? or ? uh , what do you do over five hundred ? phd d: so i take to i take a bunch of these sixty - four millisecond frame to cover five hundred milliseconds , professor c: ah . ok . phd d: and then i look for the minima , phd a: mmm . professor c: i see . phd d: on the on on the bunch of uh fifty frames , right ? professor c: i see . phd d: mmm . so the interest of this is that , as y with this technique you can estimate u some reasonable noise spectra with only five hundred milliseconds of of signal , so if the the n the noise varies a lot , uh , you can track better track the noise , professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: which is not the case if you rely on the voice activity detector . so even if there are no no speech pauses , you can track the noise level . the only requirement is that you must have , in these five hundred milliseconds segment , { comment } you must have voiced sound at least . cuz this these will help you to to track the the noise level . um . so what i did is just to simply replace the vad - based , uh , noise estimate by this estimate , first on speechdat - car well , only on speechdat - car actually . and it 's , uh , slightly worse , like one percent relative compared to the vad - based estimates . um , i think the reason why it 's not better , is that the speechdat - car noises are all stationary . um . so , u y y there really is no need to have something that 's adaptive professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and uh , well , they are mainly stationary . um . but , i expect s maybe some improvement on ti - digits because , nnn , in this case the noises are all sometimes very variable . uh , so i have to test it . mmm . professor c: but are you comparing with something e i 'm i 'm p s a little confused again , i it uh , when you compare it with the v a d - based , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: vad - is this is this the ? phd d: it 's it 's the france - telecom - based spectra , s uh , wiener filtering and vad . so it 's their system but just i replace their noise estimate by this one . professor c: oh , you 're not doing this with our system ? phd d: in i i 'm not no , no . yeah , it 's our system but with just the wiener filtering from their system . right ? mmm . professor c: ok . phd d: yeah . actually , th the best system that we still have is , uh , our system but with their noise compensation scheme , right ? professor c: right . but phd d: so i 'm trying to improve on this , and by by replacing their noise estimate by , uh , something that might be better . professor c: ok . but the spectral subtraction scheme that you reported on also re requires a a noise estimate . phd d: yeah . yeah . professor c: could n't you try this for that ? phd d: but i di professor c: do you think it might help ? phd d: not yet , because i did this in parallel , professor c: i see , phd d: and i was working on one and the other . professor c: i see . yeah . phd d: um , phd b: yeah . phd d: yeah , for for sure i will . i can try also , mmm , the spectral subtraction . phd b: so i 'm also using that n new noise estimate technique on this wiener filtering what i 'm trying . professor c: ok . phd b: so i i have , like , some experiments running , i do n't have the results . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah . phd b: so . professor c: yeah . phd b: i do n't estimate the f noise on the ten frames but use his estimate . professor c: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . um . yeah . i , um , also implemented a sp um spectral whitening idea which is in the , um , ericsson proposal . uh , the idea is just to um , flatten the log , uh , spectrum , um , and to flatten it more if the the probability of silence is higher . so in this way , you can also reduce somewhat reduce the musical noise and you reduce the variability if you have different noise shapes , because the the spectrum becomes more flat in the silence portions . um . yeah . with this , no improvement , uh , but there are a lot of parameters that we can play with and , um actually , this this could be seen as a soft version of the frame dropping because , um , you could just put the threshold and say that `` below the threshold , i will flatten comp completely flatten the the spectrum `` . and above this threshold , uh , keep the same spectrum . so it would be like frame dropping , because during the silence portions which are below the threshold of voice activity probability , { comment } uh , w you would have some kind of dummy frame which is a perfectly flat spectrum . and this , uh , whitening is something that 's more soft because , um , you whiten you just , uh , have a function the whitening is a function of the speech probability , so it 's not a hard decision . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: um , so i think maybe it can be used together with frame dropping and when we are not sure about if it 's speech or silence , well , maybe it has something do with this . professor c: it 's interesting . i mean , um , you know , in in jrasta we were essentially adding in , uh , white uh , white noise dependent on our estimate of the noise . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: on the overall estimate of the noise . uh , i think it never occurred to us to use a probability in there . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: you could imagine one that that that made use of where where the amount that you added in was , uh , a function of the probability of it being s speech or noise . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . yeah , w yeah , right now it 's a constant that just depending on the the noise spectrum . phd b: there 's professor c: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: cuz that that brings in sort of powers of classifiers that we do n't really have in , uh , this other estimate . so it could be it could be interesting . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: what what what point does the , uh , system stop recording ? how much phd a: it 'll keep going till i guess when they run out of disk space , professor c: it went a little long ? i mean , disk phd a: but i think we 're ok . phd d: so . professor c: ok . phd d: yeah . uh yeah , so there are with this technique there are some i just did something exactly the same as as the ericsson proposal but , um , the probability of speech is not computed the same way . and i think , i for yeah , for a lot of things , actually a g a good speech probability is important . like for frame dropping you improve , like you can improve from ten percent as sunil showed , if you use the channel zero speech probabilities . professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: for this it might help , um professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: s so , yeah . uh , so yeah , the next thing i started to do is to , uh , try to develop a better voice activity detector . and , um i d um yeah , for this i think we can maybe try to train the neural network for voice activity detection on all the data that we have , including all the speechdat - car data . um and so i 'm starting to obtain alignments on these databases . um , and the way i mi i do that is that i just use the htk system but i train it only on the close - talking microphone . and then i aligned i obtained the viterbi alignment of the training utterances . um it seems to be , uh i actually what i observed is that for italian it does n't seem th - there seems to be a problem . phd b: no . so , it does n't seems to help by their use of channel zero or channel one . phd d: well . because what ? phd b: uh , you mean their d the frame dropping , right ? yeah , it does n't phd d: yeah . yeah . so , u but actually the vad was trained on italian also , phd b: italian . phd d: so um , the c the current vad that we have was trained on , uh , t spine , right ? phd b: ti - digits . phd d: italian , and ti - digits with noise and phd b: phd d: uh , yeah . and it seems to work on italian but not on the finnish and spanish data . so , maybe one reason is that s s finnish and spanish noise are different . and actually we observed we listened to some of the utterances and sometimes for finnish there is music in the recordings and strange things , right ? phd b: yeah . phd d: um yeah , so the idea was to train all the databases and obtain an alignment to train on these databases , and , um , also to , um , try different kind of features , uh , as input to the vad network . and we came up with a bunch of features that we want to try like , um , the spectral slope , the , um , the degree o degree of voicing with the features that , uh , we started to develop with carmen , um , e with , uh , the correlation between bands and different kind of features , phd b: yeah . mm - hmm . phd d: and yeah . phd b: the energy also . phd d: the energy . phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah , right . phd d: yeah . of course . yeah . professor c: ok . well , hans - guenter will be here next week so i think he 'll be interested in all all of these things . and , so . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: mmm . phd a: ok , shall we , uh , do digits ? professor c: yeah . phd a: want to go ahead , morgan ? professor c: sure . phd a: ok .

the professor wanted to make sure that the team does not end up in a bind . if they later had to cut latency , it would create a problem . this was his preferred conservative approach .

how long was the latency ? </s> phd a: ok , we 're going . phd d: damn . professor c: and uh hans - uh , hans - guenter will be here , um , i think by next next tuesday or so . phd b: oh , ok . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so he 's he 's going to be here for about three weeks , phd b: oh ! that 's nice . phd a: just for a visit ? professor c: and , uh uh , we 'll see . phd a: huh . professor c: we might might end up with some longer collaboration or something . phd a: cool . professor c: so he 's gon na look in on everything we 're doing phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: and give us his his thoughts . and so it 'll be another another good person looking at things . phd b: oh . hmm . grad e: th - that 's his spectral subtraction group ? professor c: yeah , grad e: is that right ? professor c: yeah . grad e: oh , ok . so i guess i should probably talk to him a bit too ? professor c: oh , yeah . yeah . yeah . no , he 'll be around for three weeks . he 's , uh , um , very , very , easygoing , easy to talk to , and , uh , very interested in everything . phd a: really nice guy . professor c: yeah , yeah . phd b: yeah , we met him in amsterdam . professor c: yeah , yeah , he 's been here before . phd b: oh , ok . professor c: i mean , he 's he 's he 's he 's phd a: wh - back when i was a grad student he was here for a , uh , uh a year or { comment } n six months . phd b: i have n't noticed him . professor c: n nine months . phd a: something like that . professor c: something like that . phd a: yeah . professor c: yeah . yeah . he 's he 's done a couple stays here . phd b: hmm . professor c: yeah . phd a: so , um , { comment } i guess we got lots to catch up on . and we have n't met for a couple of weeks . we did n't meet last week , morgan . um , i went around and talked to everybody , and it seemed like they they had some new results but rather than them coming up and telling me i figured we should just wait a week and they can tell both you know , all of us . so , um , why do n't we why do n't we start with you , dave , and then , um , we can go on . grad e: oh , ok . phd a: so . grad e: so , um , since we 're looking at putting this , um mean log m magnitude spectral subtraction , um , into the smartkom system , i i did a test seeing if , um , it would work using past only { comment } and plus the present to calculate the mean . so , i did a test , um , where i used twelve seconds from the past and the present frame to , um , calculate the mean . and phd a: twelve seconds twelve twelve seconds back from the current frame , is that what you mean ? grad e: uh twelve seconds , um , counting back from the end of the current frame , phd a: ok , ok . grad e: yeah . so it was , um , twen i think it was twenty - one frames and that worked out to about twelve seconds . phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: and compared to , um , do using a twelve second centered window , i think there was a drop in performance but it was just a slight drop . phd a: hmm ! professor c: mm - hmm . grad e: is is that right ? professor c: um , yeah , i mean , it was pretty it was pretty tiny . yeah . grad e: uh - huh . so that was encouraging . and , um , that that um , that 's encouraging for for the idea of using it in an interactive system like and , um , another issue i 'm i 'm thinking about is in the smartkom system . so say twe twelve seconds in the earlier test seemed like a good length of time , but what happens if you have less than twelve seconds ? and , um so i w bef before , um back in may , i did some experiments using , say , two seconds , or four seconds , or six seconds . in those i trained the models using mean subtraction with the means calculated over two seconds , or four seconds , or six seconds . and , um , here , i was curious , what if i trained the models using twelve seconds but i f i gave it a situation where the test set i was subtracted using two seconds , or four seconds , or six seconds . and , um so i did that for about three different conditions . and , um i mean , i th i think it was , um , four se i think i think it was , um , something like four seconds and , um , six seconds , and eight seconds . something like that . and it seems like it it it hurts compared to if you actually train the models { comment } using th that same length of time but it it does n't hurt that much . um , u usually less than point five percent , although i think i did see one where it was a point eight percent or so rise in word error rate . but this is , um , w where , um , even if i train on the , uh , model , and mean subtracted it with the same length of time as in the test , it the word error rate is around , um , ten percent or nine percent . so it does n't seem like that big a d a difference . professor c: but it but looking at it the other way , is n't it what you 're saying that it did n't help you to have the longer time for training , if you were going to have a short time for grad e: that that 's true . um , professor c: i mean , why would you do it , if you knew that you were going to have short windows in testing . grad e: wa phd a: yeah , it seems like for your i mean , in normal situations you would never get twelve seconds of speech , right ? i 'm not e u phd b: you need twelve seconds in the past to estimate , right ? or l or you 're looking at six sec seconds in future and six in professor c: yeah . grad e: um , t twelve s professor c: no , total . grad e: n n uh for the test it 's just twelve seconds in the past . phd b: no , it 's all oh , ok . phd a: is this twelve seconds of uh , regardless of speech or silence ? or twelve seconds of speech ? grad e: of of speech . phd a: ok . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: the other thing , um , which maybe relates a little bit to something else we 've talked about in terms of windowing and so on is , that , um , i wonder if you trained with twelve seconds , and then when you were two seconds in you used two seconds , and when you were four seconds in , you used four seconds , and when you were six and you basically build up to the twelve seconds . so that if you have very long utterances you have the best , grad e: yeah . professor c: but if you have shorter utterances you use what you can . grad e: right . and that 's actually what we 're planning to do in professor c: ok . yeah . grad e: but s so i g so i guess the que the question i was trying to get at with those experiments is , `` does it matter what models you use ? does it matter how much time y you use to calculate the mean when you were , um , tra doing the training data ? `` professor c: right . but i mean the other thing is that that 's i mean , the other way of looking at this , going back to , uh , mean cepstral subtraction versus rasta kind of things , is that you could look at mean cepstral subtraction , especially the way you 're doing it , uh , as being a kind of filter . and so , the other thing is just to design a filter . you know , basically you 're you 're you 're doing a high - pass filter or a band - pass filter of some sort and and just design a filter . and then , you know , a filter will have a certain behavior and you loo can look at the start up behavior when you start up with nothing . grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: and and , you know , it will , uh , if you have an iir filter for instance , it will , um , uh , not behave in the steady - state way that you would like it to behave until you get a long enough period , but , um , uh , by just constraining yourself to have your filter be only a subtraction of the mean , you 're kind of , you know , tying your hands behind your back because there 's filters have all sorts of be temporal and spectral behaviors . grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: and the only thing , you know , consistent that we know about is that you want to get rid of the very low frequency component . grad e: hmm . phd b: but do you really want to calculate the mean ? and you neglect all the silence regions { comment } or you just use everything that 's twelve seconds , and grad e: um , you do you mean in my tests so far ? phd b: ye - yeah . grad e: most of the silence has been cut out . phd b: ok . grad e: just there 's just inter - word silences . phd b: mm - hmm . and they are , like , pretty short . shor grad e: pretty short . phd b: yeah , ok . grad e: yeah . phd b: yeah . mm - hmm . so you really need a lot of speech to estimate the mean of it . grad e: well , if i only use six seconds , it still works pretty well . phd b: yeah . yeah . uh - huh . grad e: i saw in my test before . i was trying twelve seconds cuz that was the best in my test before phd b: ok . grad e: and that increasing past twelve seconds did n't seem to help . phd b: hmm . huh . grad e: th um , yeah , i guess it 's something i need to play with more to decide how to set that up for the smartkom system . like , may maybe if i trained on six seconds it would work better when i only had two seconds or four seconds , and professor c: yeah . yeah . and , um grad e: ok . professor c: yeah , and again , if you take this filtering perspective and if you essentially have it build up over time . i mean , if you computed means over two and then over four , and over six , essentially what you 're getting at is a kind of , uh , ramp up of a filter anyway . and so you may may just want to think of it as a filter . but , uh , if you do that , then , um , in practice somebody using the smartkom system , one would think { comment } if they 're using it for a while , it means that their first utterance , instead of , you know , getting , uh , a forty percent error rate reduction , they 'll get a uh , over what , uh , you 'd get without this , uh , um , policy , uh , you get thirty percent . and then the second utterance that you give , they get the full you know , uh , full benefit of it if it 's this ongoing thing . phd a: oh , so you you cache the utterances ? that 's how you get your , uh professor c: well , i 'm saying in practice , yeah , grad e: m phd a: ah . ok . professor c: that 's if somebody 's using a system to ask for directions or something , phd a: ok . professor c: you know , they 'll say something first . and and to begin with if it does n't get them quite right , ma m maybe they 'll come back and say , `` excuse me ? `` phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: uh , or some i mean it should have some policy like that anyway . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and and , uh , uh , in any event they might ask a second question . and it 's not like what he 's doing does n't , uh , improve things . it does improve things , just not as much as he would like . and so , uh , there 's a higher probability of it making an error , uh , in the first utterance . phd a: what would be really cool is if you could have uh , this probably users would never like this but if you had could have a system where , before they began to use it they had to introduce themselves , verbally . professor c: mm - hmm . phd a: you know . `` hi , my name is so - and - so , professor c: yeah . phd a: i 'm from blah - blah - blah . `` and you could use that initial speech to do all these adaptations and professor c: right . grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: oh , the other thing i guess which which , uh , i do n't know much about as much as i should about the rest of the system but but , um , could n't you , uh , if you if you sort of did a first pass i do n't know what kind of , uh , uh , capability we have at the moment for for doing second passes on on , uh , uh , some kind of little small lattice , or a graph , or confusion network , or something . but if you did first pass with , um , the with either without the mean sub subtraction or with a a very short time one , and then , um , once you , uh , actually had the whole utterance in , if you did , um , the , uh , uh , longer time version then , based on everything that you had , um , and then at that point only used it to distinguish between , you know , top n , um , possible utterances or something , you you might it might not take very much time . i mean , i know in the large vocabulary stu uh , uh , systems , people were evaluating on in the past , some people really pushed everything in to make it in one pass but other people did n't and had multiple passes . and , um , the argument , um , against multiple passes was u u has often been `` but we want to this to be r you know have a nice interactive response `` . and the counterargument to that which , say , uh , bbn i think had , { comment } was `` yeah , but our second responses are second , uh , passes and third passes are really , really fast `` . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: so , um , if if your second pass takes a millisecond who cares ? um . grad e: s so , um , the the idea of the second pass would be waiting till you have more recorded speech ? or ? professor c: yeah , so if it turned out to be a problem , that you did n't have enough speech because you need a longer longer window to do this processing , then , uh , one tactic is you know , looking at the larger system and not just at the front - end stuff { comment } is to take in , um , the speech with some simpler mechanism or shorter time mechanism , grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: um , do the best you can , and come up with some al possible alternates of what might have been said . and , uh , either in the form of an n - best list or in the form of a lattice , or or confusion network , or whatever . grad e: mm - hmm . professor c: and then the decoding of that is much , much faster or can be much , much faster if it is n't a big bushy network . and you can decode that now with speech that you 've actually processed using this longer time , uh , subtraction . grad e: mmm . professor c: so i mean , it 's it 's common that people do this sort of thing where they do more things that are more complex or require looking over more time , whatever , in some kind of second pass . grad e: mm - hmm . ok . professor c: um , and again , if the second pass is really , really fast uh , another one i 've heard of is is in in connected digit stuff , um , going back and l and through backtrace and finding regions that are considered to be a d a digit , but , uh , which have very low energy . grad e: mm - hmm . ok . professor c: so , uh i mean , there 's lots of things you can do in second passes , at all sorts of levels . anyway , i 'm throwing too many things out . but . phd a: so is that , uh that it ? grad e: i guess that 's it . phd a: ok , uh , do you wan na go , sunil ? phd b: yep . um , so , the last two weeks was , like so i 've been working on that wiener filtering . and , uh , found that , uh , s single like , i just do a s normal wiener filtering , like the standard method of wiener filtering . and that does n't actually give me any improvement over like i mean , uh , b it actually improves over the baseline but it 's not like it does n't meet something like fifty percent or something . so , i 've been playing with the v phd a: improves over the base line mfcc system ? yeah . phd b: yeah . yeah . yeah . so , um so that 's the improvement is somewhere around , like , thirty percent over the baseline . professor c: is that using in combination with something else ? phd b: no , just just one stage wiener filter professor c: with with a phd b: which is a standard wiener filter . professor c: no , no , but i mean in combination with our on - line normalization or with the lda ? phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . so i just plug in the wiener filtering . professor c: oh , ok . phd b: i mean , in the s in our system , where phd a: oh , ok . phd b: so , i di i di professor c: so , does it g does that mean it gets worse ? or ? phd b: no . it actually improves over the baseline of not having a wiener filter in the whole system . like i have an lda f lda plus on - line normalization , and then i plug in the wiener filter in that , professor c: yeah ? phd b: so it improves over not having the wiener filter . so it improves but it it does n't take it like be beyond like thirty percent over the baseline . so professor c: but that 's what i 'm confused about , cuz i think i thought that our system was more like forty percent without the wiener filtering . phd b: no , it 's like , uh , phd d: mmm . phd a: is this with the v new vad ? phd b: well , these are not no , it 's the old vad . so my baseline was , uh , nine this is like w the baseline is ninety - five point six eight , and eighty - nine , and professor c: so i mean , if you can do all these in word errors it 's a lot a lot easier actually . phd b: what was that ? sorry ? professor c: if you do all these in word error rates it 's a lot easier , right ? phd b: oh , ok , ok , ok . errors , right , i do n't have . professor c: ok , cuz then you can figure out the percentages . phd b: it 's all accuracies . professor c: yeah . phd d: the baseline is something similar to a w i mean , the t the the baseline that you are talking about is the mfcc baseline , right ? phd b: the t yeah , there are two baselines . phd d: or ? phd b: ok . so the baseline one baseline is mfcc baseline that when i said thirty percent improvement it 's like mfcc baseline . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so so so what 's it start on ? the mfcc baseline is is what ? is at what level ? phd b: it 's the it 's just the mel frequency and that 's it . professor c: no , what 's what 's the number ? phd b: uh , so i i do n't have that number here . ok , ok , ok , i have it here . uh , it 's the vad plus the baseline actually . i 'm talking about the the mfcc plus i do a frame dropping on it . so that 's like the word error rate is like four point three . like ten point seven . professor c: four point three . what 's ten point seven ? phd b: it 's a medium misma ok , sorry . there 's a well ma well matched , medium mismatched , and a high matched . professor c: ah . phd b: so i do n't have the like the professor c: yeah . phd b: so professor c: ok , four point three , ten point seven , phd b: and forty forty . professor c: and phd b: forty percent is the high mismatch . professor c: ok . phd b: and that becomes like four point three professor c: not changed . phd b: yeah , it 's like ten point one . still the same . and the high mismatch is like eighteen point five . professor c: eighteen point five . phd b: five . professor c: and what were you just describing ? phd b: oh , the one is this one is just the baseline plus the , uh , wiener filter plugged into it . professor c: but where 's the , uh , on - line normalization and so on ? phd b: oh , ok . so sorry . so , with the with the on - line normalization , the performance was , um , ten ok , so it 's like four point three . uh , and again , that 's the ba the ten point , uh , four and twenty point one . that was with on - line normalization and lda . so the h well matched has like literally not changed by adding on - line or lda on it . but the i mean , even the medium mismatch is pretty much the same . and the high mismatch was improved by twenty percent absolute . professor c: ok , and what kind of number an and what are we talking about here ? phd b: it 's the it - it 's italian . professor c: is this ti - digits phd b: i 'm talking about italian , professor c: or italian ? phd b: yeah . professor c: and what did so , what was the , um , uh , corresponding number , say , for , um , uh , the alcatel system for instance ? phd b: mmm . professor c: do you know ? phd d: yeah , so it looks to be , um phd b: you have it ? phd d: yep , it 's three point four , uh , eight point , uh , seven , and , uh , thirteen point seven . phd b: yep . professor c: ok . phd b: so thanks . professor c: ok . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: ok . phd b: so , uh , this is the single stage wiener filter , with the noise estimation was based on first ten frames . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: actually i started with using the vad to estimate the noise and then i found that it works it does n't work for finnish and spanish because the vad endpoints are not good to estimate the noise because it cuts into the speech sometimes , so i end up overestimating the noise and getting a worse result . so it works only for italian by u for using a vad to estimate noise . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: it works for italian because the vad was trained on italian . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: so , uh so this was , uh and so this was giving um , this this was like not improving a lot on this baseline of not having the wiener filter on it . and , so , uh , i ran this stuff with one more stage of wiener filtering on it but the second time , what i did was i estimated the new wiener filter based on the cleaned up speech , and did , uh , smoothing in the frequency to to reduce the variance professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean , i have i 've i 've observed there are , like , a lot of bumps in the frequency when i do this wiener filtering which is more like a musical noise or something . and so by adding another stage of wiener filtering , the results on the speechdat - car was like , um so , i still do n't have the word error rate . i 'm sorry about it . but the overall improvement was like fifty - six point four six . this was again using ten frames of noise estimate and two stage of wiener filtering . and the rest is like the lda plu and the on - line normalization all remaining the same . uh , so this was , like , compared to , uh , uh fifty - seven is what you got by using the french telecom system , right ? phd d: no , i do n't think so . phd b: y i phd d: is it on italian ? phd b: no , this is over the whole speechdat - car . so phd d: oh , yeah , fifty - seven phd b: point phd d: right . phd b: yeah , so the new the new wiener filtering schema is like some fifty - six point four six which is like one percent still less than what you got using the french telecom system . phd d: uh - huh . mm - hmm . professor c: but it 's a pretty similar number in any event . phd b: it 's very similar . professor c: yeah . but again , you 're you 're more or less doing what they were doing , right ? phd b: it 's it 's different in a sense like i 'm actually cleaning up the cleaned up spectrum which they 're not doing . they 're d what they 're doing is , they have two stage stages of estimating the wiener filter , but the final filter , what they do is they they take it to their time domain by doing an inverse fourier transform . professor c: yeah . phd b: and they filter the original signal using that fil filter , professor c: uh - huh . phd b: which is like final filter is acting on the input noisy speech rather than on the cleaned up . so this is more like i 'm doing wiener filter twice , but the only thing is that the second time i 'm actually smoothing the filter and then cleaning up the cleaned up spectrum first level . and so that that 's that 's what the difference is . professor c: ok . phd b: and actually i tried it on s the original clean i mean , the original spectrum where , like , i the second time i estimate the filter but actually clean up the noisy speech rather the c s first output of the first stage and that does n't seems to be a giving , i mean , that much improvement . i i didn did n't run it for the whole case . and and what i t what i tried was , by using the same thing but uh , so we actually found that the vad is very , like , crucial . i mean , just by changing the vad itself gives you the a lot of improvement professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: by instead of using the current vad , if you just take up the vad output from the channel zero , { comment } when instead of using channel zero and channel one , because that was the p that was the reason why i was not getting a lot of improvement for estimating { comment } the noise . so i just used the channel zero vad to estimate the noise so that it gives me some reliable mar markers for this noise estimation . professor c: what 's a channel zero vad ? phd b: um , professor c: i 'm i 'm confused about that . phd b: so , it 's like phd d: so it 's the close - talking microphone . phd b: yeah , the close - talking without professor c: oh , oh , oh , oh . phd b: so because the channel zero and channel one are like the same speech , but only w i mean , the same endpoints . professor c: phd b: but the only thing is that the speech is very noisy for channel one , so you can actually use the output of the channel zero for channel one for the vad . i mean , that 's like a cheating method . professor c: right . i mean , so a are they going to pro what are they doing to do , do we know yet ? about as far as what they 're what the rules are going to be and what we can use ? phd d: yeah , so actually i received a a new document , describing this . phd b: yeah , that 's phd d: and what they did finally is to , mmm , uh , not to align the utterances but to perform recognition , um , only on the close - talking microphone , phd b: which is the channel zero . phd d: and to take the result of the recognition to get the boundaries uh , of speech . professor c: so it 's not like that 's being done in one place or one time . phd d: and professor c: that 's that 's just a rule and we 'd you you were permitted to do that . is is that it ? phd d: uh , i think they will send , um , files but we we do n't well , apparently professor c: oh , so they will send files so everybody will have the same boundaries to work with ? phd d: yeah . yeah . phd b: but actually their alignment actually is not seems to be improving in like on all cases . professor c: ok . phd d: oh , i yeah , so what happened here is that , um , the overall improvement that they have with this method so well , to be more precise , what they have is , they have these alignments and then they drop the beginning silence and and the end silence but they keep , uh , two hundred milliseconds before speech and two hundred after speech . and they keep the speech pauses also . um , and the overall improvement over the mfcc baseline so , when they just , uh , add this frame dropping in addition it 's r uh , forty percent , right ? professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: fourteen percent , i mean . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah , which is phd d: um , which is , um , t which is the overall improvement . but in some cases it does n't improve at all . like , uh , y do you remember which case ? professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: it gives like negative well , in in like some italian and ti - digits , phd d: yeah , some @ @ . phd b: right ? phd d: right . phd b: yeah . so by using the endpointed speech , actually it 's worse than the baseline in some instances , which could be due to the word pattern . phd d: mmm . yeah . professor c: yeah , phd d: and yeah , the other thing also is that fourteen percent is less than what you obtain using a real vad . phd b: yeah , our neural net phd d: so with without cheating like this . phd b: yeah , yeah . phd d: so uh so i think this shows that there is still work uh , well , working on the vad is still still important i think . professor c: yeah , c phd d: uh phd a: can i ask just a a high level question ? can you just say like one or two sentences about wiener filtering and why why are people doing that ? phd b: hmm . phd a: what 's what 's the deal with that ? phd b: ok , so the wiener filter , it 's it 's like it 's like you try to minimize i mean , so the basic principle of wiener filter is like you try to minimize the , uh , d uh , difference between the noisy signal and the clean signal if you have two channels . like let 's say you have a clean t signal and you have an additional channel where you know what is the noisy signal . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: and then you try to minimize the error between these two . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: so that 's the basic principle . and you get you can do that i mean , if if you have only a c noisy signal , at a level which you , you w try to estimate the noise from the w assuming that the first few frames are noise or if you have a w voice activity detector , uh , you estimate the noise spectrum . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: and then you phd a: do you assume the noise is the same ? phd b: yeah . in yeah , after the speech starts . phd a: uh - huh . phd b: so but that 's not the case in , uh , many many of our cases but it works reasonably well . phd a: i see . phd b: and and then you what you do is you , uh b fff . so again , i can write down some of these eq oh , ok . yeah . and then you do this uh , this is the transfer function of the wiener filter , so `` sf `` is a clean speech spectrum , power spectrum phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: and `` n `` is the noisy power spectrum . and so this is the transfer function . professor c: right phd b: and , professor c: actually , i guess phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd b: and then you multiply your noisy power spectrum with this . you get an estimate of the clean power spectrum . phd a: i see . ok . phd b: so but the thing is that you have to estimate the sf from the noisy spectrum , what you have . so you estimate the nf from the initial noise portions and then you subtract that from the current noisy spectrum to get an estimate of the sf . so sometimes that becomes zero because you do you do n't have a true estimate of the noise . so the f filter will have like sometimes zeros in it phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: because some frequency values will be zeroed out because of that . and that creates a lot of discontinuities across the spectrum because @ @ the filter . so , uh , so that 's what that was just the first stage of wiener filtering that i tried . phd a: so is this , um , basically s uh , similar to just regular spectral subtraction ? phd b: it professor c: it 's all pretty related , phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah . it 's it 's there 's a di there 's a whole class of techniques where you try in some sense to minimize the noise . phd a: uh - huh . professor c: and it 's typically a mean square sense , uh uh uh , i in in in some way . and , uh uh , spectral subtraction is is , uh uh , one approach to it . phd a: do people use the wiener filtering in combination with the spectral subtraction typically , or is i are they sort of competing techniques ? phd b: not seen . they are very s similar techniques . phd a: yeah . o oh , ok . phd b: so it 's like i have n't seen anybody using s wiener filter with spectral subtraction . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: i see , i see . professor c: i mean , in the long run you 're doing the same thing phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . professor c: but y but there you make different approximations , and in spectral subtraction , for instance , there 's a a an estimation factor . phd a: mmm . professor c: you sometimes will figure out what the noise is and you 'll multiply that noise spectrum times some constant and subtract that rather than and sometimes people even though this really should be in the power domain , sometimes people s work in the magnitude domain because it it it works better . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and , uh , uh , you know . phd a: so why did you choose , uh , wiener filtering over some other one of these other techniques ? phd b: uh , the reason was , like , we had this choice of using spectral subtraction , wiener filtering , and there was one more thing which i which i 'm trying , is this sub space approach . so , stephane is working on spectral subtraction . phd a: oh , ok . phd b: so i picked up phd a: so you 're sort of trying @ @ them all . phd b: y yeah , phd a: ah , phd b: we just wanted to have a few noise production compensation techniques phd a: i see . oh , ok . phd b: and then pick some from that phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: pick one . professor c: i m i mean yeah , i mean , there 's car - carmen 's working on another , on the vector taylor series . phd b: va yeah , vad . w yeah . professor c: so they were just kind of trying to cover a bunch of different things with this task and see , you know , what are what are the issues for each of them . phd a: ah , ok . that makes sense . phd b: yeah . phd a: yeah . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: um . phd a: cool , thanks . phd b: so so one of one of the things that i tried , like i said , was to remove those zeros in the fri filter by doing some smoothing of the filter . professor c: yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: like , you estimate the edge of square and then you do a f smoothing across the frequency so that those zeros get , like , flattened out . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: and that does n't seems to be improving by trying it on the first time . so what i did was like i p did this and then you i plugged in the one more the same thing but with the smoothed filter the second time . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: and that seems to be working . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: so that 's where i got like fifty - six point five percent improvement on speechdat - car with that . and so the other thing what i tried was i used still the ten frames of noise estimate but i used this channel zero vad to drop the frames . so i 'm not still not estimating . and that has taken the performance to like sixty - seven percent in speechdat - car , which is which which like sort of shows that by using a proper vad you can just take it to further , better levels . and so . phd a: so that 's sort of like , you know , best - case performance ? phd b: yeah , so far i 've seen sixty - seven i mean , no , i have n't seen s like sixty - seven percent . and , uh , using the channel zero vad to estimate the noise also seems to be improving but i do n't have the results for all the cases with that . so i used channel zero vad to estimate noise as a lesser 2 x frame , which is like , everywhere i use the channel zero vad . and that seems to be the best combination , uh , rather than using a few frames to estimate and then drop a channel . professor c: so i 'm i 'm still a little confused . is that channel zero information going to be accessible during this test . phd b: nnn , no . this is just to test whether we can really improve by using a better vad . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: so , professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean so this is like the noise compensation f is fixed phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: but you make a better decision on the endpoints . that 's , like seems to be professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: so we c so i mean , which which means , like , by using this technique what we improve just the vad professor c: yes . phd b: we can just take the performance by another ten percent or better . professor c: ok . phd b: so , that that was just the , uh , reason for doing that experiment . and , w um yeah , but this all these things , i have to still try it on the ti - digits , which is like i 'm just running . and there seems to be not improving a a lot on the ti - digits , so i 'm like investigating that , why it 's not . and , um , um well after that . so , uh so the other the other thing is like i 've been i 'm doing all this stuff on the power spectrum . so tried this stuff on the mel as well mel and the magnitude , and mel magnitude , and all those things . but it seems to be the power spectrum seems to be getting the best result . so , one of one of reasons i thought like doing the averaging , after the filtering using the mel filter bank , that seems to be maybe helping rather than trying it on the mel filter ba filtered outputs . professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd b: so just th professor c: ma makes sense . phd b: yeah , th that 's that 's the only thing that i could think of why why it 's giving improvement on the mel . and , yep . so that 's it . professor c: uh , how about the subspace stuff ? phd b: subspace , { comment } i 'm i 'm like that 's still in a little bit in the back burner because i 've been p putting a lot effort on this to make it work , on tuning things and other stuff . professor c: ok . phd b: so i was like going parallely but not much of improvement . i 'm just have some skeletons ready , need some more time for it . professor c: ok . phd b: mmm . phd a: tha - that it ? phd b: yep . yep . phd a: cool . do you wan na go , stephane ? phd d: uh , yeah . so , i 've been , uh , working still on the spectral subtraction . um , so to r to remind you a little bit of of what i did before , is just to apply some spectral subtraction with an overestimation factor also to get , um , an estimate of the noise , uh , spectrum , and subtract this estimation of the noise spectrum from the , uh , signal spectrum , { comment } but subtracting more when the snr is is , uh , low , which is a technique that it 's often used . phd a: `` subtracting more `` , meaning ? phd d: so you overestimate the noise spectrum . you multiply the noise spectrum by a factor , uh , which depends on the snr . phd a: oh , ok . i see . phd d: so , above twenty db , it 's one , so you just subtract the noise . phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: and then it 's b generally well , i use , actually , a linear , uh , function of the snr , phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: which is bounded to , like , two or three , { comment } when the snr is below zero db . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: um , doing just this , uh , either on the fft bins or on the mel bands , um , t does n't yield any improvement professor c: oh ! um , uh , what are you doing with negative , uh , powers ? phd d: o yeah . so there is also a threshold , of course , because after subtraction you can have negative energies , phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: and so what i i just do is to put , uh to to add to put the threshold first and then to add a small amount of noise , which right now is speech - shaped . um phd a: speech - shaped ? phd d: yeah , so it 's a it has the overall overall energy , uh pow it has the overall power spectrum of speech . so with a bump around one kilohertz . phd a: so when y when you talk about there being something less than zero after subtracting the noise , is that at a particular frequency bin ? phd d: i uh - huh . yeah . phd a: ok . phd d: there can be frequency bins with negative values . phd a: and so when you say you 're adding something that has the overall shape of speech , is that in a in a particular frequency bin ? or you 're adding something across all the frequencies when you get these negatives ? phd d: for each frequencies i a i 'm adding some , uh , noise , but the a the amount of the amount of noise i add is not the same for all the frequency bins . phd a: ah ! ok . i gotcha . right . phd d: uh . right now i do n't think if it makes sense to add something that 's speech - shaped , because then you have silence portion that have some spectra similar to the sp the overall speech spectra . phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: but yeah . so this is something i can still work on , phd a: so what does that mean ? phd d: but hmm . phd a: i 'm trying to understand what it means when you do the spectral subtraction and you get a negative . it means that at that particular frequency range you subtracted more energy than there was actually phd d: that means that mm - hmm . yeah . so so yeah , you have an an estimation of the noise spectrum , but sometimes , of course , it 's as the noise is not perfectly stationary , sometimes this estimation can be , uh , too small , so you do n't subtract enough . but sometimes it can be too large also . if if the noise , uh , energy in this particular frequency band drops for some reason . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: mmm . phd a: so in in an ideal word i world { comment } if the noise were always the same , then , when you subtracted it the worst that i you would get would be a zero . i mean , the lowest you would get would be a zero , cuz i if there was no other energy there you 're just subtracting exactly the noise . professor c: right . phd d: mm - hmm , professor c: yep , there 's all there 's all sorts of , uh , deviations from the ideal here . phd d: yeah . professor c: i mean , for instance , you 're you 're talking about the signal and noise , um , at a particular point . and even if something is sort of stationary in ster terms of statistics , there 's no guarantee that any particular instantiation or piece of it is exactly a particular number or bounded by a particular range . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so , you 're figuring out from some chunk of of of the signal what you think the noise is . then you 're subtracting that from another chunk , phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and there 's absolutely no reason to think that you 'd know that it would n't , uh , be negative in some places . phd d: mm - hmm . hmm . professor c: uh , on the other hand that just means that in some sense you 've made a mistake because you certainly have stra subtracted a bigger number than is due to the noise . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: um also , we speak the whole where all this stuff comes from is from an assumption that signal and noise are uncorrelated . and that certainly makes sense in s in in a statistical interpretation , that , you know , over , um , all possible realizations that they 're uncorrelated phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: or assuming , uh , ergodicity that i that i um , across time , uh , it 's uncorrelated . but if you just look at a quarter second , uh , and you cross - multiply the two things , uh , you could very well , uh , end up with something that sums to something that 's not zero . so in fact , the two signals could have some relation to one another . and so there 's all sorts of deviations from ideal in this . and and given all that , you could definitely end up with something that 's negative . but if down the road you 're making use of something as if it is a power spectrum , um , then it can be bad to have something negative . now , the other thing i wonder about actually is , what if you left it negative ? what happens ? phd b: is that the log ? professor c: i mean , because um , are you taking the log before you add them up to the mel ? phd b: after that . no , after . professor c: right . so the thing is , i wonder how if you put your thresholds after that , i wonder how often you would end up with , uh with negative values . phd b: but you will but you end up reducing some neighboring frequency bins @ @ in the average , right ? when you add the negative to the positive value which is the true estimate . professor c: yeah . but nonetheless , uh , you know , these are it 's another f kind of smoothing , right ? that you 're doing . phd b: yeah . professor c: right . so , you 've done your best shot at figuring out what the noise should be , and now i then you 've subtracted it off . and then after that , instead of instead of , uh , uh , leaving it as is and adding things adding up some neighbors , you artificially push it up . phd b: hmm . professor c: which is , you know , it 's there 's no particular reason that that 's the right thing to do either , right ? phd b: yeah , yeah . professor c: so , um , uh , i in fact , what you 'd be doing is saying , `` well , we 're d we 're we 're going to definitely diminish the effect of this frequency in this little frequency bin in the in the overall mel summation `` . it 's just a thought . i d i do n't know if it would be phd a: sort of the opposite of that would be if if you find out you 're going to get a negative number , you do n't do the subtraction for that bin . phd b: yeah . uh - huh . that is true . professor c: nnn , yeah , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: although phd a: that would be almost the opposite , right ? instead of leaving it negative , you do n't do it . if your if your subtraction 's going to result in a negative number , you you do n't do subtraction in that . professor c: yeah , but that means that in a situation where you thought that that the bin was almost entirely noise , you left it . phd a: yeah . yeah , i 'm just saying that 's like the opposite . phd b: we just professor c: uh . phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd a: yeah . professor c: well , yeah that 's that 's the opposite , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah . phd d: and , yeah , some people also if it 's a negative value they , uh , re - compute it using inter interpolation from the edges and bins . phd b: for frames , frequency bins . professor c: yeah . phd d: well , there are different things that you can do . phd a: oh . professor c: people can also , uh , reflect it back up and essentially do a full wave rectification instead of a instead of half wave . phd a: oh . professor c: but it was just a thought that that it might be something to try . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . yep . well , actually i tried , something else based on this , um , is to to put some smoothing , um , because it seems to to help or it seems to help the wiener filtering professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and , mmm so what i did is , uh , some kind of nonlinear smoothing . actually i have a recursion that computes yeah , let me go back a little bit . actually , when you do spectral subtraction you can , uh , find this this equivalent in the s in the spectral domain . you can uh compute , y you can say that d your spectral subtraction is a filter , um , and the gain of this filter is the , um , signal energy minus what you subtract , divided by the signal energy . and this is a gain that varies over time , and , you know , of course , uh , depending on the s on the noise spectrum and on the speech spectrum . and what happen actually is that during low snr values , the gain is close to zero but it varies a lot . mmm , and this this is the cause of musical noise and all these the { comment } the fact you we go below zero one frame and then you can have an energy that 's above zero . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and mmm . so the smoothing is i did a smoothing actually on this gain , uh , trajectory . but it 's the smoothing is nonlinear in the sense that i tried to not smooth if the gain is high , because in this case we know that , uh , the estimate of the gain is correct because we we are not close to to to zero , um , and to do more smoothing if the gain is low . mmm . um . yeah . so , well , basically that 's this idea , and it seems to give pretty good results , uh , although i 've just just tested on italian and finnish . and on italian it seems my result seems to be a little bit better than the wiener filtering , phd b: mm - hmm . yeah , the one you showed yesterday . phd d: right ? phd b: right ? professor c: yeah . phd d: uh , i do n't know if you have these improvement the detailed improvements for italian , finnish , and spanish there phd b: fff . no , i do n't have , for each , phd d: or you have just have your own . phd b: i i just just have the final number here . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so these numbers he was giving before with the four point three , and the ten point one , and so forth , those were italian , right ? phd b: yeah , yeah , yeah . so so , no , professor c: yeah . phd d: uh phd b: i actually did n't give you the number which is the final one , phd d: uh , no , we 've phd b: which is , after two stages of wiener filtering . i mean , that was i just well , like the overall improvement is like fifty - six point five . so , professor c: right . phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean , his number is still better than what i got in the two stages of wiener filtering . phd d: yeah . professor c: right . phd d: on italian . but on finnish it 's a little bit worse , apparently . phd b: mm - hmm . phd d: um professor c: but do you have numbers in terms of word error rates on on italian ? so just so you have some sense of reference ? phd d: yeah . uh , so , it 's , uh , three point , uh , eight . professor c: uh - huh . phd d: am i right ? phd b: oh , ok . yeah , right , ok . phd d: and then , uh , d uh , nine point , uh , one . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and finally , uh , sixteen point five . professor c: and this is , um , spectral subtraction plus what ? phd d: plus plus nonlinear smoothing . well , it 's the system it 's exactly the sys the same system as sunil tried , professor c: on - line normalization and lda ? phd d: but professor c: yeah . yeah . phd d: yeah . but instead of double stage wiener filtering , it 's it 's this smoothed spectral subtraction . um , yeah . phd a: what is it the , um , france telecom system uses professor c: right . phd a: for do they use spectral subtraction , or wiener filtering , or ? phd b: they use spectral subtraction , right . phd d: for what ? phd b: french telecom . phd d: it it 's wiener filtering , phd b: oh , it 's it 's wiener filtering . phd d: am i right ? phd a: oh . phd b: sorry . phd d: well , it 's some kind of wiener filtering phd b: yeah , filtering . yeah , it 's not exactly wiener filtering but some variant of wiener filtering . phd d: yeah . phd a: i see . phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah , plus , uh , i guess they have some sort of cepstral normalization , as well . phd b: s they have like yeah , th the just noise compensation technique is a variant of wiener filtering , phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: plus they do some some smoothing techniques on the final filter . the th they actually do the filtering in the time domain . phd a: mmm . phd d: yeah . phd a: hmm . phd b: so they would take this hf squared back , taking inverse fourier transform . and they convolve the time domain signal with that . phd a: oh , i see . phd b: and they do some smoothing on that final filter , impulse response . phd a: hmm . phd d: but they also have two two different smoothing @ @ . phd b: i mean , i 'm i 'm @ @ . phd d: one in the time domain and one in the frequency domain by just taking the first , um , coefficients of the impulse response . phd b: but . phd d: so , basically it 's similar . i mean , what you did , it 's similar phd b: it 's similar in the smoothing and phd d: because you have also two two kind of smoothing . phd b: yeah . phd d: one in the time domain , and one in the frequency domain , phd b: yeah . the frequency domain . phd d: yeah . phd a: does the smoothing in the time domain help phd d: um phd a: well , do you get this musical noise stuff with wiener filtering or is that only with , uh , spectral subtraction ? phd b: no , you get it with wiener filtering also . phd d: yeah . phd a: does the smoothing in the time domain help with that ? or some other smoothing ? phd b: oh , no , you still end up with zeros in the s spectrum . sometimes . phd d: yeah . phd a: hmm . professor c: i mean , it 's not clear that these musical noises hurt us in recognition . phd a: hmm . professor c: we do n't know if they do . phd b: yeah . professor c: i mean , they they sound bad . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah , i know . professor c: but we 're not listening to it , usually . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: hmm . phd d: uh , actually the the smoothing that i did do here reduced the musical noise . well , it phd b: mm - hmm . yeah , yeah , phd d: mmm . phd b: the phd d: well , i can not you can not hear beca well , actually what i d did not say is that this is not in the fft bins . this is in the mel frequency bands . um so , it could be seen as a f a a smoothing in the frequency domain because i used , in ad mel bands in addition and then the other phase of smoothing in the time domain . mmm . but , when you look at the spectrogram , if you do n't have an any smoothing , you clearly see , like in silence portions , and at the beginning and end of speech , you see spots of high energy randomly distributed over the the spectrogram . phd a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: um phd a: that 's the musical noise ? phd d: which is musical noise , phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah , if if it if you listen to it uh , if you do this in the fft bins , then you have spots of energy randomly distributing . and if you f if you re - synthesize these spot sounds as , like , sounds , phd a: mm - hmm . phd d: uh professor c: well , none of these systems , by the way , have i mean , y you both are are working with , um , our system that does not have the neural net , phd d: and phd b: yep . professor c: right ? phd b: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: ok . so one would hope , presumably , that the neural net part of it would would improve things further as as they did before . phd d: yeah . yeah . um yeah , although if if we , um , look at the result from the proposals , { comment } one of the reason , uh , the n system with the neural net was , um , more than well , around five percent better , is that it was much better on highly mismatched condition . i 'm thinking , for instance , on the ti - digits trained on clean speech and tested on noisy speech . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: uh , for this case , the system with the neural net was much better . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: but not much on the in the other cases . professor c: yeah . phd d: and if we have no , uh , spectral subtraction or wiener filtering , um , i the system is uh , we thought the neural neural network is much better than before , even in these cases of high mismatch . so , maybe the neural net will help less but , um professor c: maybe . phd a: could you train a neural net to do spectral subtraction ? professor c: yeah , it could do a nonlinear spectral subtraction phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: but i do n't know if it i mean , you have to figure out what your targets are . phd a: yeah , i was thinking if you had a clean version of the signal and and a noisy version , and your targets were the m f - uh , you know , whatever , frequency bins phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: right . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah , well , that 's not so much spectral subtraction then , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: but but but it 's but at any rate , yeah , people , uh phd a: people do that ? professor c: y yeah , in fact , we had visitors here who did that i think when you were here ba way back when . phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: hmm . professor c: uh , people d done lots of experimentation over the years with training neural nets . and it 's not a bad thing to do . it 's another approach . phd a: hmm . professor c: m i mean , it 's it , um phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: the objection everyone always raises , which has some truth to it is that , um , it 's good for mapping from a particular noise to clean but then you get a different noise . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: and the experiments we saw that visitors did here showed that it there was at least some , um , { comment } gentleness to the degradation when you switched to different noises . it did seem to help . so that you 're right , that 's another another way to go . phd a: how did it compare on i mean , for for good cases where it it uh , stuff that it was trained on ? did it do pretty well ? professor c: oh , yeah , it did very well . phd a: mmm . professor c: yeah . phd a: mmm . professor c: um , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: but to some extent that 's kind of what we 're doing . i mean , we 're not doing exactly that , we 're not trying to generate good examples but by trying to do the best classifier you possibly can , for these little phonetic categories , phd a: mm - hmm . you could say it 's sort of built in . professor c: it 's yeah , it 's kind of built into that . phd a: hmm . professor c: and and that 's why we have found that it it does help . phd a: mm - hmm . professor c: um so , um , yeah , i mean , we 'll just have to try it . but i i would i would i would imagine that it will help some . i mean , it we 'll just have to see whether it helps more or less the same , but i would imagine it would help some . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so in any event , all of this i was just confirming that all of this was with a simpler system . phd d: yeah , professor c: ok ? phd d: yeah . um , yeah , so this is th the , um well , actually , this was kind of the first try with this spectral subtraction plus smoothing , professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and i was kind of excited by the result . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: um , then i started to optimize the different parameters . and , uh , the first thing i tried to optimize is the , um , time constant of the smoothing . and it seems that the one that i chose for the first experiment was the optimal one , so uh , professor c: it 's amazing how often that happens . phd d: um , so this is the first thing . um yeah , another thing that i it 's important to mention is , um , that this has a this has some additional latency . um . because when i do the smoothing , uh , it 's a recursion that estimated the means , so of the g of the gain curve . and this is a filter that has some latency . and i noticed that it 's better if we take into account this latency . so , instead o of using the current estimated mean to , uh , subtract the current frame , it 's better to use an estimate that 's some somewhere in the future . um phd a: and that 's what causes the latency ? ok . phd b: you mean , the m the mean is computed o based on some frames in the future also ? professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . phd b: or or no ? phd d: it 's the recursion , so it 's it 's the center recursion , right ? phd b: mm - hmm . phd d: um and the latency of this recursion is around fifty milliseconds . professor c: one five ? phd d: professor c: one five ? five zero ? phd d: five zero , professor c: five zero . phd d: yeah . professor c: yeah . phd d: um , phd b: i 'm sorry , phd d: mmm . phd b: why why is that delay coming ? like , you estimate the mean ? phd d: yeah , the mean estimation has some delay , right ? phd b: oh , yeah . phd d: i mean , the the filter that that estimates the mean has a time constant . phd b: it is n't ok , so it 's like it looks into the future also . ok . phd d: yeah . professor c: what if you just look into the past ? phd d: it 's , uh , not as good . it 's not bad . professor c: how m by how much ? phd d: um , it helps a lot over the ba the baseline but , mmm professor c: by how much ? phd d: it it 's around three percent , um , relative . professor c: worse . phd d: yeah . yeah . um , professor c: hmm . phd d: mmm so , uh professor c: it 's depending on how all this stuff comes out we may or may not be able to add any latency . phd d: yeah , but yeah . so , yeah , it depends . uh , y actually , it 's it 's l it 's three percent . right . mmm . yeah , b but i do n't think we have to worry too much on that right now while you kno . mm - hmm . professor c: um , s yeah , i mean , i think the only thing is that phd d: so professor c: i would worry about it a little . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: because if we completely ignore latency , and then we discover that we really have to do something about it , we 're going to be find ourselves in a bind . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so , um , you know , maybe you could make it twenty - five . you know what i mean ? phd d: yeah . professor c: yeah , just , you know , just be be a little conservative phd d: oh yes . professor c: because we may end up with this crunch where all of a sudden we have to cut the latency in half or something . phd d: s mm - hmm . yeah . professor c: ok . phd d: um . so , yeah , there are other things in the , um , algorithm that i did n't , uh , @ @ a lot yet , phd a: oh ! phd d: which phd a: sorry . a quick question just about the latency thing . if if there 's another part of the system that causes a latency of a hundred milliseconds , is this an additive thing ? or c or is yours hidden in that ? phd d: mm - hmm . phd a: uh phd d: no , it 's it 's added . phd a: it 's additive . ok . phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: we can ok . we can do something in parallel also , in some like some cases like , if you wanted to do voice activity detection . phd a: uh - huh . phd b: and we can do that in parallel with some other filtering you can do . phd d: mmm . phd b: so you can make a decision on that voice activity detection and then you decide whether you want to filter or not . phd d: yeah . phd b: but by then you already have the sufficient samples to do the filtering . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: so so , sometimes you can do it anyway . phd a: i mean , could n't , uh i could n't you just also i mean , i if you know that the l the largest latency in the system is two hundred milliseconds , do n't you could n't you just buffer up that number of frames and then everything uses that buffer ? phd b: yeah . phd a: and that way it 's not additive ? professor c: well , in fact , everything is sent over in buffers cuz of is n't it the tcp buffer some ? phd b: you mean , the the data , the super frame or something ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah , yeah . phd d: yeah . phd b: yeah , but that has a variable latency because the last frame does n't have any latency phd d: mm - hmm . phd b: and first frame has a twenty framed latency . so you ca n't r rely on that latency all the time . professor c: yeah . phd b: because i mean the transmission over over the air interface is like a buffer . phd d: yeah . phd b: twenty frame phd a: yeah . phd b: twenty four frames . phd a: yeah . phd b: so but the only thing is that the first frame in that twenty - four frame buffer has a twenty - four frame latency . and the last frame does n't have any latency . phd a: mm - hmm . phd b: because it just goes as phd a: yeah , i was n't thinking of that one in particular phd b: yeah . phd a: but more of , you know , if if there is some part of your system that has to buffer twenty frames , uh , ca n't the other parts of the system draw out of that buffer and therefore not add to the latency ? professor c: yeah . yeah . and and that 's sort of one of the all of that sort of stuff is things that they 're debating in their standards committee . phd a: oh ! hmm . phd d: mm - hmm . yeah . so , um , there is uh , { comment } these parameters that i still have to to look at . like , i played a little bit with this overestimation factor , uh , but i still have to to look more at this , um , at the level of noise i add after . uh , i know that adding noise helped , um , the system just using spectral subtraction without smoothing , but i do n't know right now if it 's still important or not , and if the level i choose before is still the right one . same thing for the shape of the the noise . maybe it would be better to add just white noise instead of speech shaped noise . professor c: that 'd be more like the jrasta thing in a sense . yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . um , yep . uh , and another thing is to yeah , for this i just use as noise estimate the mean , uh , spectrum of the first twenty frames of each utterance . i do n't remember for this experiment what did you use for these two stage phd b: i used ten just ten frames . yeah , because phd d: the ten frames ? phd b: i mean , the reason was like in ti - digits i do n't have a lot . i had twenty frames most of the time . phd d: mm - hmm . um . but , so what 's this result you told me about , the fact that if you use more than ten frames you can improve by t phd b: well , that 's that 's using the channel zero . if i use a channel zero vad to estimate the noise . phd d: oh , ok . phd b: which phd d: but this is ten frames plus plus phd b: channel zero dropping . phd d: channel phd b: hmm . phd d: uh , no , these results with two stage wiener filtering is ten frames phd b: t oh , this phd d: but possibly more . i mean , if channel one vad gives you phd b: f yeah . mm - hmm . yeah . phd d: yeah . ok . yeah , but in this experiment i did i did n't use any vad . i just used the twenty first frame to estimate the noise . and so i expected it to be a little bit better , if , uh , i use more more frames . um . ok , that 's it for spectral subtraction . the second thing i was working on is to , um , try to look at noise estimation , { comment } mmm , and using some technique that does n't need voice activity detection . um , and for this i u simply used some code that , uh , i had from from belgium , which is technique that , um , takes a bunch of frame , um , and for each frequency bands of this frame , takes a look at the minima of the energy . and then average these minima and take this as an an energy estimate of the noise for this particular frequency band . and there is something more to this actually . what is done is that , uh , these minima are computed , um , based on , um , high resolution spectra . so , i compute an fft based on the long , uh , signal frame which is sixty - four millisecond phd a: so you have one minimum for each frequency ? phd d: what what i what i d uh , i do actually , is to take a bunch of to take a tile on the spectrogram and this tile is five hundred milliseconds long and two hundred hertz wide . phd a: mmm . phd d: and this tile uh , in this tile appears , like , the harmonics if you have a voiced sound , because it 's it 's the ftt bins . and when you take the m the minima of of these this tile , when you do n't have speech , these minima will give you some noise level estimate , if you have voiced speech , these minima will still give you some noise estimate because the minima are between the harmonics . and if you have other other kind of speech sounds then it 's not the case , but if the time frame is long enough , uh , like s five hundred milliseconds seems to be long enough , { comment } you still have portions which , uh , are very close whi which minima are very close to the noise energy . professor c: i 'm confused . you said five hundred milliseconds phd d: mmm ? professor c: but you said sixty - four milliseconds . which is which ? what ? phd d: sixty - four milliseconds is to compute the fft , uh , bins . professor c: yeah , phd d: the the fft . professor c: yeah . phd d: um , actually it 's better to use sixty - four milliseconds because , um , if you use thirty milliseconds , then , uh , because of the this short windowing and at low pitch , uh , sounds , the harmonics are not , wha uh , correctly separated . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: so if you take these minima , it b they will overestimate the noise a lot . professor c: so you take sixty - four millisecond f f ts and then you average them { comment } over five hundred ? or ? uh , what do you do over five hundred ? phd d: so i take to i take a bunch of these sixty - four millisecond frame to cover five hundred milliseconds , professor c: ah . ok . phd d: and then i look for the minima , phd a: mmm . professor c: i see . phd d: on the on on the bunch of uh fifty frames , right ? professor c: i see . phd d: mmm . so the interest of this is that , as y with this technique you can estimate u some reasonable noise spectra with only five hundred milliseconds of of signal , so if the the n the noise varies a lot , uh , you can track better track the noise , professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: which is not the case if you rely on the voice activity detector . so even if there are no no speech pauses , you can track the noise level . the only requirement is that you must have , in these five hundred milliseconds segment , { comment } you must have voiced sound at least . cuz this these will help you to to track the the noise level . um . so what i did is just to simply replace the vad - based , uh , noise estimate by this estimate , first on speechdat - car well , only on speechdat - car actually . and it 's , uh , slightly worse , like one percent relative compared to the vad - based estimates . um , i think the reason why it 's not better , is that the speechdat - car noises are all stationary . um . so , u y y there really is no need to have something that 's adaptive professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and uh , well , they are mainly stationary . um . but , i expect s maybe some improvement on ti - digits because , nnn , in this case the noises are all sometimes very variable . uh , so i have to test it . mmm . professor c: but are you comparing with something e i 'm i 'm p s a little confused again , i it uh , when you compare it with the v a d - based , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: vad - is this is this the ? phd d: it 's it 's the france - telecom - based spectra , s uh , wiener filtering and vad . so it 's their system but just i replace their noise estimate by this one . professor c: oh , you 're not doing this with our system ? phd d: in i i 'm not no , no . yeah , it 's our system but with just the wiener filtering from their system . right ? mmm . professor c: ok . phd d: yeah . actually , th the best system that we still have is , uh , our system but with their noise compensation scheme , right ? professor c: right . but phd d: so i 'm trying to improve on this , and by by replacing their noise estimate by , uh , something that might be better . professor c: ok . but the spectral subtraction scheme that you reported on also re requires a a noise estimate . phd d: yeah . yeah . professor c: could n't you try this for that ? phd d: but i di professor c: do you think it might help ? phd d: not yet , because i did this in parallel , professor c: i see , phd d: and i was working on one and the other . professor c: i see . yeah . phd d: um , phd b: yeah . phd d: yeah , for for sure i will . i can try also , mmm , the spectral subtraction . phd b: so i 'm also using that n new noise estimate technique on this wiener filtering what i 'm trying . professor c: ok . phd b: so i i have , like , some experiments running , i do n't have the results . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah . phd b: so . professor c: yeah . phd b: i do n't estimate the f noise on the ten frames but use his estimate . professor c: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . um . yeah . i , um , also implemented a sp um spectral whitening idea which is in the , um , ericsson proposal . uh , the idea is just to um , flatten the log , uh , spectrum , um , and to flatten it more if the the probability of silence is higher . so in this way , you can also reduce somewhat reduce the musical noise and you reduce the variability if you have different noise shapes , because the the spectrum becomes more flat in the silence portions . um . yeah . with this , no improvement , uh , but there are a lot of parameters that we can play with and , um actually , this this could be seen as a soft version of the frame dropping because , um , you could just put the threshold and say that `` below the threshold , i will flatten comp completely flatten the the spectrum `` . and above this threshold , uh , keep the same spectrum . so it would be like frame dropping , because during the silence portions which are below the threshold of voice activity probability , { comment } uh , w you would have some kind of dummy frame which is a perfectly flat spectrum . and this , uh , whitening is something that 's more soft because , um , you whiten you just , uh , have a function the whitening is a function of the speech probability , so it 's not a hard decision . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: um , so i think maybe it can be used together with frame dropping and when we are not sure about if it 's speech or silence , well , maybe it has something do with this . professor c: it 's interesting . i mean , um , you know , in in jrasta we were essentially adding in , uh , white uh , white noise dependent on our estimate of the noise . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: on the overall estimate of the noise . uh , i think it never occurred to us to use a probability in there . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: you could imagine one that that that made use of where where the amount that you added in was , uh , a function of the probability of it being s speech or noise . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . yeah , w yeah , right now it 's a constant that just depending on the the noise spectrum . phd b: there 's professor c: yeah . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: cuz that that brings in sort of powers of classifiers that we do n't really have in , uh , this other estimate . so it could be it could be interesting . phd d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: what what what point does the , uh , system stop recording ? how much phd a: it 'll keep going till i guess when they run out of disk space , professor c: it went a little long ? i mean , disk phd a: but i think we 're ok . phd d: so . professor c: ok . phd d: yeah . uh yeah , so there are with this technique there are some i just did something exactly the same as as the ericsson proposal but , um , the probability of speech is not computed the same way . and i think , i for yeah , for a lot of things , actually a g a good speech probability is important . like for frame dropping you improve , like you can improve from ten percent as sunil showed , if you use the channel zero speech probabilities . professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: for this it might help , um professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: s so , yeah . uh , so yeah , the next thing i started to do is to , uh , try to develop a better voice activity detector . and , um i d um yeah , for this i think we can maybe try to train the neural network for voice activity detection on all the data that we have , including all the speechdat - car data . um and so i 'm starting to obtain alignments on these databases . um , and the way i mi i do that is that i just use the htk system but i train it only on the close - talking microphone . and then i aligned i obtained the viterbi alignment of the training utterances . um it seems to be , uh i actually what i observed is that for italian it does n't seem th - there seems to be a problem . phd b: no . so , it does n't seems to help by their use of channel zero or channel one . phd d: well . because what ? phd b: uh , you mean their d the frame dropping , right ? yeah , it does n't phd d: yeah . yeah . so , u but actually the vad was trained on italian also , phd b: italian . phd d: so um , the c the current vad that we have was trained on , uh , t spine , right ? phd b: ti - digits . phd d: italian , and ti - digits with noise and phd b: phd d: uh , yeah . and it seems to work on italian but not on the finnish and spanish data . so , maybe one reason is that s s finnish and spanish noise are different . and actually we observed we listened to some of the utterances and sometimes for finnish there is music in the recordings and strange things , right ? phd b: yeah . phd d: um yeah , so the idea was to train all the databases and obtain an alignment to train on these databases , and , um , also to , um , try different kind of features , uh , as input to the vad network . and we came up with a bunch of features that we want to try like , um , the spectral slope , the , um , the degree o degree of voicing with the features that , uh , we started to develop with carmen , um , e with , uh , the correlation between bands and different kind of features , phd b: yeah . mm - hmm . phd d: and yeah . phd b: the energy also . phd d: the energy . phd b: yeah . professor c: yeah , right . phd d: yeah . of course . yeah . professor c: ok . well , hans - guenter will be here next week so i think he 'll be interested in all all of these things . and , so . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: mmm . phd a: ok , shall we , uh , do digits ? professor c: yeah . phd a: want to go ahead , morgan ? professor c: sure . phd a: ok .

the latency of the recursion was fifty milliseconds . the recursion added that much to the overall latency of the system . though , phd b suggested doing tasks in parallel to reduce total latency .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: welcome back . industrial designer: i 'm sorry to be late . project manager: welcome back everybody . user interface: yeah . thanks . project manager: so this meeting agenda will be the detailed design meeting . and uh opening and uh pms of the meet minutes , uh prototype presentation from uh christine and uh agnes . industrial designer: agnes , yes . project manager: yes and uh evaluation criteria . the finance , it 's uh from my side , from the management , and uh production evaluation . then uh closing . so we have forty minutes to discuss and uh finalise and close the product and project and to move further , okay , so okay , let 's talk about uh maybe first uh for the prototype . user interface: mm , okay . project manager: so i handle to user interface: i 've done a presentation , but it pretty much covers work that we 've both done , so if i 'm missing anything , christine can just correct me . project manager: so shall i go to sorry . industrial designer: uh thank you , so you did a powerpoint presentation , good for you . project manager: yep . s okay , let 's go to ami . user interface: it 's not the biggest powerpoint presentation in the world , but industrial designer: marketing: project manager: so in two or three or industrial designer: user interface: three . um . no it 's marketing: probably . technical pa i would think . user interface: think it 's the last one . no , then this is the la yeah , that one , final design . marketing: ha . project manager: yeah . user interface: it is named appropriately , you just could n't see the name . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: um okay , can i have the mouse ? project manager: yes . user interface: thanks . alright , so from when we were discussing specifying the case in the last meeting , we decided that we wanted an ergonomic shape , the material that we chose was wood , and uh the colour would be customisable , 'cause you can stain the wood whatever colour . um , so in terms of function , you have to be able to turn the tv on and off , volume and channel control , menu control , voice recognition control , and we 've incorporated the lcd screen on the flip panel as part of the design , if we figure out it 's too expensive , well then you just take it off . um , so to unveil our lovely product . this is our remote control , with the flip panel as you can see . marketing: user interface: so if you lift up the panel , you can see the lovely yellow lcd display . um , this is actually hard to do . the yellow button you have is the on off button , so it 's really big , hard to miss . you have the the red um triangles are the toggles for changing the volume . so up volume up , down volume down . the green are the channel changing . s and it 's one of those very light , very touchable displays . and then you have the numeric pad in the dark blue at the bottom , and on the right-hand side you have the access to the menu on the tv , and on the left-hand side you have the the the ability to turn off the voice recognition . so this is pretty much what we had on the white board the last time . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so . industrial designer: um and uh i could user interface: oh yes . industrial designer: yeah the d user interface: additional feature on the back is that you can have your own customised backing and i suppose you could do the same thing on the flip case on the front . so that you can really make this a highly highly customisable remote control . industrial designer: we have n't um uh specified where the speaker or the microphone will be placed . that depends on the uh s design of the circuit board inside and uh what room is left um user interface: yeah . project manager: i think the microphone is on on the top , uh on the middle , the under the flip . industrial designer: yes , okay . uh-huh . project manager: so that will be the safe , so p any the chip it 's not on the chip because you need to have microphone to industrial designer: no , i mean it depends on the design of the circuit board . project manager: yes . user interface: but it should n't be under the flip either , because you can have the remote control closed , but you still might want to activate it by voice . project manager: uh it 's it 's yeah , but uh uh my opinion i think it 's better under the flip because whenever you want to uh the talk , okay , so then you can speak then you can close it . but if you put it on the on the flip , okay , then uh technical i do n't think it 's uh feasible , 'cause most of the time you speak then it will be recognised . user interface: but if you 've already got the remote control in your hand you need to open the flip to use the voice , why use the voice , why not just use your hand ? i mean the whole point of the voice is that if the remote control is sitting there and i 'm too lazy to reach over and pick it up , i can just use my voice . industrial designer: maybe i 've got my hand in the popcorn bowl and i 'm holding my cup of coca-cola in the other hand . user interface: yeah . and you do n't wan na let go of either one . marketing: i do n't wan na say . louder . yeah . user interface: i mean it does n't have to be on the flip , it can be on the side somewhere . marketing: can also be on the side . project manager: yeah , the sides maybe is good . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so , i mean i can pass this around if anyone wants to project manager: yes . so it 's maybe good idea . industrial designer: yeah , y better you pass it around with a napkin . user interface: marketing: no , because y you can easily put a microphone on the side that would have no problem would have n't been not be damaged or anything , and it 'd be accessible all the time to voice . user interface: yeah . project manager: yes . yeah . user interface: yeah , exactly . marketing: yeah . project manager: so it 's maybe good idea . s s industrial designer: it 's um it 's um marketing: compliments to the artist . industrial designer: you need to work on the weight a little bit . user interface: yes . marketing: uh . project manager: okay . s i 'm fine , i 'm satisfi user interface: and maybe the shape of the buttons , project manager: i 'm satisfied . user interface: the little egg shapes are n't the most economical , but industrial designer: we 're glad you 're satisfied . project manager: of course it 's it 's it 's looks more heo heavy , but i think when it 's completely maybe it 's a less weight . user interface: yeah . i mean this is plasticene . project manager: yes . user interface: there 's only so much you can do . we could have possibly made it a lot thinner as well . but and part of the thing is m a lot of people say that they do n't like something that 's too light , because they do n't feel like they have enough control over it . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so i mean maybe this is excessively heavy , but i think it needs to have some weight , project manager: yep . user interface: it needs to feel like you 're still holding something . so that 's pretty much it for our presentation actually . project manager: that 's your uh prototype model ? user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , that 's good , thank you very much . marketing: project manager: so any comments or uh marketing: well , the prototype is is very well within the design and ideas that we 've we 've talked about on the previous meetings . project manager: okay . marketing: now it goes into this next phase as the financial uh marketing uh project manager: yes , that uh so i 'll come back to the so evaluation criteria , i think uh that will be good , so then let 's come to the finance uh , i have some uh calculations which i made uh as for uh the budget . so here you can uh look like uh the energy and uh dynamo and uh kinetic and solar cells . uh it 's optional , somewhat optional and ed wants the chip on print , that 's what uh we were talking about that . industrial designer: project manager: so then we have sample sensor and sample speaker , then uh we have the wood material , then special colour and push button . so it 's uh actually , our budget was uh twelve point five euro , but uh it 's coming to nine point nine five euro , so we are under uh below the budget , okay , so still we are saving some money . i think it 's a good figure . industrial designer: yes , great i i 'm surprised . marketing: industrial designer: congratulations . project manager: than thank you . marketing: well we have n't come to mine yet , so industrial designer: oh , okay user interface: industrial designer: . it 's gon na cost a long way to c you know , cost a lot of money to market it , is it ? marketing: we 're gon na have a bit of difference of opinion , yes . project manager: so maybe it 's for some money we can utilise for our uh marketing , for the sales , okay , and uh marketing: well , it just depends on if we 're gon na add a o on this pr provisionary cost analysis , we do not have a l_c_ display . l_c_ display is gon na be very expensive , user interface: no we do , but it 's not filled in . marketing: it 's gon na be project manager: it 's not . industrial designer: thirty . marketing: it 's not it does n't say . user interface: it 's number thirty . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: we do n't have the price up there , user interface: oh , yeah , yeah , project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: you 're right , sorry , yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay , so if we add approximately two to three euro per remote , now we 're up around about twelve , twelve and a half as to what uh the company had initially uh requested . um industrial designer: so that means we can put the uh the lcd in , yeah . marketing: display in . but as far as production um i 'm putting up a question because we 're talking about profit also , and in mine you 'll see uh the problem with uh our survey , the p the possibility that how many units can be sold , what percentage of the market , etcetera etcetera because that has to be taken in into consideration . project manager: marketing: uh this is just production cost , it is not uh advertising cost , it 's not transportation cost uh project manager: yes , so still uh we have twelve point five euro . marketing: and that will inflate quite a bit the cost of the uh the cost of the unit for the company . project manager: yes . yeah , but yes . yep . user interface: um-hmm . marketing: so to come up with what the company wants is a fifty million pound profit , we 're gon na have to go a long ways . project manager: yes . this we are talking about one unit , okay , so when it go into the quantity , okay , and the cost will come down . marketing: yes . industrial designer: although customisation , because this is being done , you know , the on on-order basis , it might be uh the the quantity wo n't m wo n't uh marketing: slightly . project manager: yeah . marketing: it 's gon na be very hard to reduce . user interface: yes . industrial designer: the circuit board will b you 're right , would be in producing quantity , but the cost of the case would uh be fixed at the uh you got some pretty cheap labour that can do this case for one euro . marketing: that 's not bad . industrial designer: that 's really that 's the cost of the material and lab wow , that 's really outstanding . project manager: yep . yeah . but anyhow , still we are under control , okay , so what uh i will do is i will try to negotiate with the vendors , okay , to get uh the production cost less , okay , so then we can save some money , okay , to put into th our marketing or uh you know the promotions , whatever , okay , so that uh i will look after . i will speak to the management and how to get uh you know some more uh cost down . marketing: if we can go to to my display . and we 'll come back to yours project manager: yes . marketing: just to give everybody an idea of the market . so now i 'm gon na scare everybody out of this project . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: if i 'm still here . project manager: you 're in four ? marketing: yep the four gives me it 's got ta be uh trendwatch . project manager: trendwatch . industrial designer: is this the same one you did before ? marketing: no . industrial designer: okay . marketing: it should n't be user interface: that 's no , i think it 's the same one . marketing: if it 's not it 's not the right one . no , no we g no , that 's the same one . you have to go back and find another one . whatever name it popped up under . project manager: user interface: functional . marketing: uh functional , try functional , it might not be it either , but we 'll see . industrial designer: user interface: it looks like it , there 's s yeah . marketing: yep , that 's it . so we 'll go screen by screen . project manager: okay . marketing: although since uh we need to have some type of idea on a market uh we had independent study that says it this this market has an availability to absorb eight mi eight million units per year . okay ? our internal company evaluation puts it between eight to nine million which is approximately the same as the independent study . project manager: yep . marketing: so if we continue , we 'll look at the findings . next screen . which means that uh if we have a target of two million would the company has to take twenty five percent of the market in the first year , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: which is actually a tremendous amount . industrial designer: yeah , no kidding . marketing: no kidding , yeah . industrial designer: mayb maybe they already expected something . marketing: so , if we put an inflated price of fifty euro at a production cost that can not exceed twenty-five euro , okay , we 're already in that that price , okay , project manager: yes . marketing: with transport , promotion , labour , because we hav gi included the promotion in the cost , transport for the material to the stores or whatever how however we 're gon na break this down between our our retailers . user interface: um-hmm . marketing: twenty-five percent of the market to get to two million units . at two million units , we have to have a profit of twenty-five euro per unit to get to the fifty million unit eu euro profit . project manager: mm-hmm . yep . marketing: okay ? so , obviously we w w i just did a run down the evaluation of the form , the fan uh the fancy stylishness of the of the unit , the ease of use , speech recognition , cost , we 've gone through these . now , the company must evaluate the feasibility of being able to take enough of the market to justify in production . or we project this over two years , but being that the market changes very very quickly , maybe there 's no more interest in buying this thing in eighteen months from now . project manager: yes . yep . of course . marketing: so , now we have to come up with a decision . user interface: mm . marketing: can the company sell two million units ? project manager: yep . marketing: can it sell it for fifty euros ? industrial designer: could could i go to findings ? project manager: yep . industrial designer: uh uh um i would uh like to explore the possibility of using um alternative um delivery and sales channel which would be um to use the internet for promotion and ordering project manager: yes . user interface: i was thinking the same thing , yeah . industrial designer: and then to drop-ship the p product to the customer 's residence . user interface: directly . industrial designer: that way you have no storage , you have no um you do have transportation , still have the labour cost , user interface: um-hmm . industrial designer: but you do n't have the transport to the uh point of sale . project manager: yes . industrial designer: the point of sale is online . user interface: yeah . project manager: to the agents . user interface: yeah . you can do a shipping centre somewhere , or strategically place shipping centres to minimise distance costs . industrial designer: right , like amazon . in fact , we should sell through amazon , project manager: yes . or ebay , or industrial designer: do n't you think ? or ebay , yeah . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: there 's an idea . marketing: project manager: yeah , that 's a good idea . industrial designer: going with um project manager: to impro more profit and uh marketing: s upscale technology . project manager: yeah , yes . industrial designer: ah , we we 're do you know , selling a unique product uh . marketing: well . user interface: that actually makes more sense if we 're gon na make it so highly customisable , 'cause on the web people can look at the different options they have , see maybe what other people have done , what the range of possibility as , industrial designer: mm . marketing: there are several companies that have gone that way . user interface: whereas if you 're in a store , you ca n't unless you 're a highly imaginative person , you may not really know what it is you want , industrial designer: mm . user interface: whereas on the web , if you have a bunch of pictures , it can sort of trigger ideas and industrial designer: mm-hmm . and you can even have an a movie that you can rotate the object and look at the di the only thing that you 're missing really is the weight . user interface: yeah . the weight and feel . marketing: weight , the feel of the product , but industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we 're getting used to that . it 's not quite like trying on a shoe , but people are getting used to buying things online that they ca n't touch before buying . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: there are several that have gone through with the watches , too . you can customise a watch , you can see how it is at the f at the end of the production , industrial designer: uh-huh . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: you can change it uh there 's a lot of online that 's that is doing this now . user interface: yes . marketing: and when you 're rotating , you 'll look behind and look this way uh it 's possible to do with this , maybe there 's a possibility of selling more than two million units in one year , which could you know , feasibili feasibility uh lower the price of the unit . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: we can . industrial designer: great . project manager: i do n't think that 's uh not possible , it 's uh okay then , l uh let 's wait for the production , okay , then uh you can evaluate the product , so how it looks like technically and uh how it look like uh the real . user interface: what turnaround time do we have ? project manager: t user interface: 'cause i mean production evaluation can be very very quick or very very long . project manager: oh but yes it 's it 's very quick , of course . it will uh come back in two weeks , okay , it will be ready in two weeks . industrial designer: works for me . project manager: for evaluation , okay . industrial designer: prototypes , you mean . project manager: yes , the prototype uh prototype product evaluation . industrial designer: in um we probably should do some market tests uh once we have the prototypes and do some orders and things like that and test-market it . project manager: yes . yes . yes . marketing: well , obviously . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm that 'd have to be thrown out on the market for people to get an idea , project manager: so you can take a minimum two weeks to a maximum four weeks . marketing: to see get get their user interface: mm-hmm . think minimum two weeks if we 're gon na develop prototypes and then try to take them to different places and see how people use project manager: yeah . user interface: it 's not a trivial task . project manager: yeah , because we we are not going to do it in uh our factory , okay , so we can give it a product evalua user interface: no no . we definitely should n't do it in our factory . project manager: yes , yes . industrial designer: project manager: so we 'll do it in the other place , and i do n't think it 's take more than four weeks time . or uh okay , so then the real production we will start once we product evaluation , okay , then uh it 's approve from uh the technical team and uh your team , okay , uh from the management , then we can launch in the market . hm ? industrial designer: any outstanding ? project manager: s any any other uh questions or uh comments to be discuss ? industrial designer: no , i 'm user interface: what ab industrial designer: go ahead . marketing: i think we pretty much covered everything . project manager: okay , so then uh industrial designer: did you have something ? user interface: well i was just wondering about if we 're gon na do a product evaluation then what about time for redesign if the users come back and tell us no this is bad , this is bad , we want this done differently . project manager: okay uh , let 's take like this . let 's proceed with this model , okay , for the for the marketing direction , okay . industrial designer: project manager: so no more changes will be made , okay , in this the basic design . okay ? so we will introduce m this model and uh let 's introduce in the market and let 's take the feedback from the customers , then we can uh go for the industrial designer: second generation . project manager: second generation . user interface: project manager: okay . there 's no end , there 's not limit . industrial designer: user interface: the problem is there might not be a second generation if the first generation flops for some silly reason that we have n't thought of . project manager: every every custom industrial designer: marketing: well , then it may not be . project manager: okay . well , every customer , okay , they have their own ideas , they have their own test , okay , so there 's no end , there 's no limit . marketing: like people do n't like wood . user interface: no , but there 's a difference between releasing a product that has been minimally tested and fine-tuned to suit a general range of requirements versus releasing a product that we think will work but we do n't really have anything to back it up . marketing: very specific . project manager: yeah , so that 's the reason you are here for uh the design , okay , i hope you made a good design . user interface: yes , but i 'm not everybody . industrial designer: user interface: i mean the whole point of user evaluation is to see what real people need . we have our own motivations in mind , we have our own ideas in mind , but that does n't mean that that 's what 's gon na sell . project manager: yeah , but uh see , we ought to take a few considerations , okay , one is the price consideration , one is future consideration , okay , like uh you can eat uh you can all eat more chi i can eat more chilli , okay , so i it 's a depends on the individual taste , you know , industrial designer: project manager: so we have we have to balance somewhere . user interface: yeah , of course . i 'm just trying to point out that i think that your evaluation and redesign turnaround time is too short well you have no redesign not you personally , but in the project we have no redesign time and project manager: yes . industrial designer: our project does n't um project manager: yeah . industrial designer: ed , d do you know what season of the year or time of the year is the most important for tv remote control sales ? marketing: hmm . industrial designer: would it be the christmas season by any chance ? project manager: the sports time . industrial designer: sports season . which sport season ? marketing: right before the eur the world cup . world soccer . world cup soccer , project manager: football . industrial designer: so so user interface: yeah . marketing: they need those things that they have their hands g occupied and they need to be able to talk to the con remote control . project manager: football . industrial designer: maybe what user interface: industrial designer: so i think what we need to do is perhaps to synchronise the final the the launch of a user-tested device with some special event . marketing: project manager: yes . yes . industrial designer: and and then um user interface: yeah , that 's a good idea . industrial designer: so that gives us a little more time perhaps then we anticipated , because i do n't know when the world cup is , but i 'm sure there 's gon na be one . marketing: or any major sports . industrial designer: or another m major sports event . probably not the um the football games coming up the end of january . i think that might be a little too aggressive um , project manager: yes . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but , so , i 'm just ig uh pointing out a uh a strategy to uh do some additional user testing project manager: research . industrial designer: pri and then to launch um at a a major sports event user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yep . industrial designer: or uh perhaps to uh also user interface: that 's actually good place to advertise it too . industrial designer: and to work with motion pictures . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: there might be some motion pictures that are coming out um that are coming out on d_v_d_ that uh they need to have a m special remote control to work with it , so we could maybe work out a campaign with uh with sony pictures for example . project manager: yes . industrial designer: maybe some management has got uh relationships there we can leverage . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yes , the that of course uh i will convince the management to do that , okay . industrial designer: that 's great . user interface: it 's just something to to keep in mind , 'cause it 's really really important . project manager: sure , sure , yes . user interface: a lot of products have gone out there without being properly user-tested and completely flopped , when in fact it gets re-released a few years down the line with proper testing and it takes off like crazy . industrial designer: disposable diapers is an example of that in fact . user interface: really ? industrial designer: yes , it is one of the first consumer products that was launched about thirty years that was a disposable consumer product , user interface: that i did n't know . industrial designer: and uh people the market had n't really gotten on to the concept that you could use something and then throw it away , 'cause it was n't uh user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but then when they re-launched them thirty years later , they were virtually the same design , project manager: . industrial designer: but people had gotten the throw-away , you know , paper cups and napki y all kinds of things that they had n't um so , you 're right , timing is very important , user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but i think we 've got a good product . project manager: that 's the reason ed is here . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think he can promote the the brand value and the product value . industrial designer: that 's right . it 's gon na be very important to the company . project manager: yes . we are behind the scene and he is the front screen , so . user interface: yep . project manager: he 's on the big screen . marketing: yeah , i 'm the one who takes the heat . user interface: exactly . industrial designer: good luck , ed . marketing: if it 's a flop , it 's the marketer . industrial designer: you look very relaxed , considering h you know , the uh the weight on your shoulders , yeah . marketing: yes . yes . stress . user interface: project manager: okay , so then uh let 's come to the closing and uh are the costs within the budget marketing: celebration . project manager: and uh is the product evaluated , okay , so that will uh come soon . okay for uh but our time being , so thanks for all your efforts and great work and uh great design and uh let 's leave it to the ed for later for once production is over and the meantime let 's celebrate . so let 's meet up uh this evening to hang up for some party . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: sounds good . project manager: 's good . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: okay . marketing: very good . industrial designer: nice working with you . marketing: thank you very much . project manager: thank you . thank you again for all . user interface: thanks industrial designer: user interface: project manager: and see you in the evening for drinks . marketing: bye-bye . yep , okay , see you later on . user interface: bye .

project manager initiated the final meeting on the topic of detailed design . industrial designer and user interface each gave a presentation on the prototype and discussed the evaluation criteria , especially that of microphone and buttons . next , the group did calculations on the budget as well as the profit goal before marketing showed the challenges of this project in terms of budget control and reaching the profit target . the group then discussed using the internet for promotion and ordering and drop-shipping the product to the customer 's residence . finally , the subject moved to product evaluation by putting the prototype on the market and analyzing the feedback . the group discussed whether they should spare time for the redesign process before releasing the product to the market . then industrial designer put up a strategy to do effective user research by choosing sports seasons .

what did the group discuss about the detailed design of the product ? </s> project manager: welcome back . industrial designer: i 'm sorry to be late . project manager: welcome back everybody . user interface: yeah . thanks . project manager: so this meeting agenda will be the detailed design meeting . and uh opening and uh pms of the meet minutes , uh prototype presentation from uh christine and uh agnes . industrial designer: agnes , yes . project manager: yes and uh evaluation criteria . the finance , it 's uh from my side , from the management , and uh production evaluation . then uh closing . so we have forty minutes to discuss and uh finalise and close the product and project and to move further , okay , so okay , let 's talk about uh maybe first uh for the prototype . user interface: mm , okay . project manager: so i handle to user interface: i 've done a presentation , but it pretty much covers work that we 've both done , so if i 'm missing anything , christine can just correct me . project manager: so shall i go to sorry . industrial designer: uh thank you , so you did a powerpoint presentation , good for you . project manager: yep . s okay , let 's go to ami . user interface: it 's not the biggest powerpoint presentation in the world , but industrial designer: marketing: project manager: so in two or three or industrial designer: user interface: three . um . no it 's marketing: probably . technical pa i would think . user interface: think it 's the last one . no , then this is the la yeah , that one , final design . marketing: ha . project manager: yeah . user interface: it is named appropriately , you just could n't see the name . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: um okay , can i have the mouse ? project manager: yes . user interface: thanks . alright , so from when we were discussing specifying the case in the last meeting , we decided that we wanted an ergonomic shape , the material that we chose was wood , and uh the colour would be customisable , 'cause you can stain the wood whatever colour . um , so in terms of function , you have to be able to turn the tv on and off , volume and channel control , menu control , voice recognition control , and we 've incorporated the lcd screen on the flip panel as part of the design , if we figure out it 's too expensive , well then you just take it off . um , so to unveil our lovely product . this is our remote control , with the flip panel as you can see . marketing: user interface: so if you lift up the panel , you can see the lovely yellow lcd display . um , this is actually hard to do . the yellow button you have is the on off button , so it 's really big , hard to miss . you have the the red um triangles are the toggles for changing the volume . so up volume up , down volume down . the green are the channel changing . s and it 's one of those very light , very touchable displays . and then you have the numeric pad in the dark blue at the bottom , and on the right-hand side you have the access to the menu on the tv , and on the left-hand side you have the the the ability to turn off the voice recognition . so this is pretty much what we had on the white board the last time . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so . industrial designer: um and uh i could user interface: oh yes . industrial designer: yeah the d user interface: additional feature on the back is that you can have your own customised backing and i suppose you could do the same thing on the flip case on the front . so that you can really make this a highly highly customisable remote control . industrial designer: we have n't um uh specified where the speaker or the microphone will be placed . that depends on the uh s design of the circuit board inside and uh what room is left um user interface: yeah . project manager: i think the microphone is on on the top , uh on the middle , the under the flip . industrial designer: yes , okay . uh-huh . project manager: so that will be the safe , so p any the chip it 's not on the chip because you need to have microphone to industrial designer: no , i mean it depends on the design of the circuit board . project manager: yes . user interface: but it should n't be under the flip either , because you can have the remote control closed , but you still might want to activate it by voice . project manager: uh it 's it 's yeah , but uh uh my opinion i think it 's better under the flip because whenever you want to uh the talk , okay , so then you can speak then you can close it . but if you put it on the on the flip , okay , then uh technical i do n't think it 's uh feasible , 'cause most of the time you speak then it will be recognised . user interface: but if you 've already got the remote control in your hand you need to open the flip to use the voice , why use the voice , why not just use your hand ? i mean the whole point of the voice is that if the remote control is sitting there and i 'm too lazy to reach over and pick it up , i can just use my voice . industrial designer: maybe i 've got my hand in the popcorn bowl and i 'm holding my cup of coca-cola in the other hand . user interface: yeah . and you do n't wan na let go of either one . marketing: i do n't wan na say . louder . yeah . user interface: i mean it does n't have to be on the flip , it can be on the side somewhere . marketing: can also be on the side . project manager: yeah , the sides maybe is good . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so , i mean i can pass this around if anyone wants to project manager: yes . so it 's maybe good idea . industrial designer: yeah , y better you pass it around with a napkin . user interface: marketing: no , because y you can easily put a microphone on the side that would have no problem would have n't been not be damaged or anything , and it 'd be accessible all the time to voice . user interface: yeah . project manager: yes . yeah . user interface: yeah , exactly . marketing: yeah . project manager: so it 's maybe good idea . s s industrial designer: it 's um it 's um marketing: compliments to the artist . industrial designer: you need to work on the weight a little bit . user interface: yes . marketing: uh . project manager: okay . s i 'm fine , i 'm satisfi user interface: and maybe the shape of the buttons , project manager: i 'm satisfied . user interface: the little egg shapes are n't the most economical , but industrial designer: we 're glad you 're satisfied . project manager: of course it 's it 's it 's looks more heo heavy , but i think when it 's completely maybe it 's a less weight . user interface: yeah . i mean this is plasticene . project manager: yes . user interface: there 's only so much you can do . we could have possibly made it a lot thinner as well . but and part of the thing is m a lot of people say that they do n't like something that 's too light , because they do n't feel like they have enough control over it . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so i mean maybe this is excessively heavy , but i think it needs to have some weight , project manager: yep . user interface: it needs to feel like you 're still holding something . so that 's pretty much it for our presentation actually . project manager: that 's your uh prototype model ? user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , that 's good , thank you very much . marketing: project manager: so any comments or uh marketing: well , the prototype is is very well within the design and ideas that we 've we 've talked about on the previous meetings . project manager: okay . marketing: now it goes into this next phase as the financial uh marketing uh project manager: yes , that uh so i 'll come back to the so evaluation criteria , i think uh that will be good , so then let 's come to the finance uh , i have some uh calculations which i made uh as for uh the budget . so here you can uh look like uh the energy and uh dynamo and uh kinetic and solar cells . uh it 's optional , somewhat optional and ed wants the chip on print , that 's what uh we were talking about that . industrial designer: project manager: so then we have sample sensor and sample speaker , then uh we have the wood material , then special colour and push button . so it 's uh actually , our budget was uh twelve point five euro , but uh it 's coming to nine point nine five euro , so we are under uh below the budget , okay , so still we are saving some money . i think it 's a good figure . industrial designer: yes , great i i 'm surprised . marketing: industrial designer: congratulations . project manager: than thank you . marketing: well we have n't come to mine yet , so industrial designer: oh , okay user interface: industrial designer: . it 's gon na cost a long way to c you know , cost a lot of money to market it , is it ? marketing: we 're gon na have a bit of difference of opinion , yes . project manager: so maybe it 's for some money we can utilise for our uh marketing , for the sales , okay , and uh marketing: well , it just depends on if we 're gon na add a o on this pr provisionary cost analysis , we do not have a l_c_ display . l_c_ display is gon na be very expensive , user interface: no we do , but it 's not filled in . marketing: it 's gon na be project manager: it 's not . industrial designer: thirty . marketing: it 's not it does n't say . user interface: it 's number thirty . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: we do n't have the price up there , user interface: oh , yeah , yeah , project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: you 're right , sorry , yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay , so if we add approximately two to three euro per remote , now we 're up around about twelve , twelve and a half as to what uh the company had initially uh requested . um industrial designer: so that means we can put the uh the lcd in , yeah . marketing: display in . but as far as production um i 'm putting up a question because we 're talking about profit also , and in mine you 'll see uh the problem with uh our survey , the p the possibility that how many units can be sold , what percentage of the market , etcetera etcetera because that has to be taken in into consideration . project manager: marketing: uh this is just production cost , it is not uh advertising cost , it 's not transportation cost uh project manager: yes , so still uh we have twelve point five euro . marketing: and that will inflate quite a bit the cost of the uh the cost of the unit for the company . project manager: yes . yeah , but yes . yep . user interface: um-hmm . marketing: so to come up with what the company wants is a fifty million pound profit , we 're gon na have to go a long ways . project manager: yes . this we are talking about one unit , okay , so when it go into the quantity , okay , and the cost will come down . marketing: yes . industrial designer: although customisation , because this is being done , you know , the on on-order basis , it might be uh the the quantity wo n't m wo n't uh marketing: slightly . project manager: yeah . marketing: it 's gon na be very hard to reduce . user interface: yes . industrial designer: the circuit board will b you 're right , would be in producing quantity , but the cost of the case would uh be fixed at the uh you got some pretty cheap labour that can do this case for one euro . marketing: that 's not bad . industrial designer: that 's really that 's the cost of the material and lab wow , that 's really outstanding . project manager: yep . yeah . but anyhow , still we are under control , okay , so what uh i will do is i will try to negotiate with the vendors , okay , to get uh the production cost less , okay , so then we can save some money , okay , to put into th our marketing or uh you know the promotions , whatever , okay , so that uh i will look after . i will speak to the management and how to get uh you know some more uh cost down . marketing: if we can go to to my display . and we 'll come back to yours project manager: yes . marketing: just to give everybody an idea of the market . so now i 'm gon na scare everybody out of this project . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: if i 'm still here . project manager: you 're in four ? marketing: yep the four gives me it 's got ta be uh trendwatch . project manager: trendwatch . industrial designer: is this the same one you did before ? marketing: no . industrial designer: okay . marketing: it should n't be user interface: that 's no , i think it 's the same one . marketing: if it 's not it 's not the right one . no , no we g no , that 's the same one . you have to go back and find another one . whatever name it popped up under . project manager: user interface: functional . marketing: uh functional , try functional , it might not be it either , but we 'll see . industrial designer: user interface: it looks like it , there 's s yeah . marketing: yep , that 's it . so we 'll go screen by screen . project manager: okay . marketing: although since uh we need to have some type of idea on a market uh we had independent study that says it this this market has an availability to absorb eight mi eight million units per year . okay ? our internal company evaluation puts it between eight to nine million which is approximately the same as the independent study . project manager: yep . marketing: so if we continue , we 'll look at the findings . next screen . which means that uh if we have a target of two million would the company has to take twenty five percent of the market in the first year , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: which is actually a tremendous amount . industrial designer: yeah , no kidding . marketing: no kidding , yeah . industrial designer: mayb maybe they already expected something . marketing: so , if we put an inflated price of fifty euro at a production cost that can not exceed twenty-five euro , okay , we 're already in that that price , okay , project manager: yes . marketing: with transport , promotion , labour , because we hav gi included the promotion in the cost , transport for the material to the stores or whatever how however we 're gon na break this down between our our retailers . user interface: um-hmm . marketing: twenty-five percent of the market to get to two million units . at two million units , we have to have a profit of twenty-five euro per unit to get to the fifty million unit eu euro profit . project manager: mm-hmm . yep . marketing: okay ? so , obviously we w w i just did a run down the evaluation of the form , the fan uh the fancy stylishness of the of the unit , the ease of use , speech recognition , cost , we 've gone through these . now , the company must evaluate the feasibility of being able to take enough of the market to justify in production . or we project this over two years , but being that the market changes very very quickly , maybe there 's no more interest in buying this thing in eighteen months from now . project manager: yes . yep . of course . marketing: so , now we have to come up with a decision . user interface: mm . marketing: can the company sell two million units ? project manager: yep . marketing: can it sell it for fifty euros ? industrial designer: could could i go to findings ? project manager: yep . industrial designer: uh uh um i would uh like to explore the possibility of using um alternative um delivery and sales channel which would be um to use the internet for promotion and ordering project manager: yes . user interface: i was thinking the same thing , yeah . industrial designer: and then to drop-ship the p product to the customer 's residence . user interface: directly . industrial designer: that way you have no storage , you have no um you do have transportation , still have the labour cost , user interface: um-hmm . industrial designer: but you do n't have the transport to the uh point of sale . project manager: yes . industrial designer: the point of sale is online . user interface: yeah . project manager: to the agents . user interface: yeah . you can do a shipping centre somewhere , or strategically place shipping centres to minimise distance costs . industrial designer: right , like amazon . in fact , we should sell through amazon , project manager: yes . or ebay , or industrial designer: do n't you think ? or ebay , yeah . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: there 's an idea . marketing: project manager: yeah , that 's a good idea . industrial designer: going with um project manager: to impro more profit and uh marketing: s upscale technology . project manager: yeah , yes . industrial designer: ah , we we 're do you know , selling a unique product uh . marketing: well . user interface: that actually makes more sense if we 're gon na make it so highly customisable , 'cause on the web people can look at the different options they have , see maybe what other people have done , what the range of possibility as , industrial designer: mm . marketing: there are several companies that have gone that way . user interface: whereas if you 're in a store , you ca n't unless you 're a highly imaginative person , you may not really know what it is you want , industrial designer: mm . user interface: whereas on the web , if you have a bunch of pictures , it can sort of trigger ideas and industrial designer: mm-hmm . and you can even have an a movie that you can rotate the object and look at the di the only thing that you 're missing really is the weight . user interface: yeah . the weight and feel . marketing: weight , the feel of the product , but industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we 're getting used to that . it 's not quite like trying on a shoe , but people are getting used to buying things online that they ca n't touch before buying . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: there are several that have gone through with the watches , too . you can customise a watch , you can see how it is at the f at the end of the production , industrial designer: uh-huh . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: you can change it uh there 's a lot of online that 's that is doing this now . user interface: yes . marketing: and when you 're rotating , you 'll look behind and look this way uh it 's possible to do with this , maybe there 's a possibility of selling more than two million units in one year , which could you know , feasibili feasibility uh lower the price of the unit . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: we can . industrial designer: great . project manager: i do n't think that 's uh not possible , it 's uh okay then , l uh let 's wait for the production , okay , then uh you can evaluate the product , so how it looks like technically and uh how it look like uh the real . user interface: what turnaround time do we have ? project manager: t user interface: 'cause i mean production evaluation can be very very quick or very very long . project manager: oh but yes it 's it 's very quick , of course . it will uh come back in two weeks , okay , it will be ready in two weeks . industrial designer: works for me . project manager: for evaluation , okay . industrial designer: prototypes , you mean . project manager: yes , the prototype uh prototype product evaluation . industrial designer: in um we probably should do some market tests uh once we have the prototypes and do some orders and things like that and test-market it . project manager: yes . yes . yes . marketing: well , obviously . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm that 'd have to be thrown out on the market for people to get an idea , project manager: so you can take a minimum two weeks to a maximum four weeks . marketing: to see get get their user interface: mm-hmm . think minimum two weeks if we 're gon na develop prototypes and then try to take them to different places and see how people use project manager: yeah . user interface: it 's not a trivial task . project manager: yeah , because we we are not going to do it in uh our factory , okay , so we can give it a product evalua user interface: no no . we definitely should n't do it in our factory . project manager: yes , yes . industrial designer: project manager: so we 'll do it in the other place , and i do n't think it 's take more than four weeks time . or uh okay , so then the real production we will start once we product evaluation , okay , then uh it 's approve from uh the technical team and uh your team , okay , uh from the management , then we can launch in the market . hm ? industrial designer: any outstanding ? project manager: s any any other uh questions or uh comments to be discuss ? industrial designer: no , i 'm user interface: what ab industrial designer: go ahead . marketing: i think we pretty much covered everything . project manager: okay , so then uh industrial designer: did you have something ? user interface: well i was just wondering about if we 're gon na do a product evaluation then what about time for redesign if the users come back and tell us no this is bad , this is bad , we want this done differently . project manager: okay uh , let 's take like this . let 's proceed with this model , okay , for the for the marketing direction , okay . industrial designer: project manager: so no more changes will be made , okay , in this the basic design . okay ? so we will introduce m this model and uh let 's introduce in the market and let 's take the feedback from the customers , then we can uh go for the industrial designer: second generation . project manager: second generation . user interface: project manager: okay . there 's no end , there 's not limit . industrial designer: user interface: the problem is there might not be a second generation if the first generation flops for some silly reason that we have n't thought of . project manager: every every custom industrial designer: marketing: well , then it may not be . project manager: okay . well , every customer , okay , they have their own ideas , they have their own test , okay , so there 's no end , there 's no limit . marketing: like people do n't like wood . user interface: no , but there 's a difference between releasing a product that has been minimally tested and fine-tuned to suit a general range of requirements versus releasing a product that we think will work but we do n't really have anything to back it up . marketing: very specific . project manager: yeah , so that 's the reason you are here for uh the design , okay , i hope you made a good design . user interface: yes , but i 'm not everybody . industrial designer: user interface: i mean the whole point of user evaluation is to see what real people need . we have our own motivations in mind , we have our own ideas in mind , but that does n't mean that that 's what 's gon na sell . project manager: yeah , but uh see , we ought to take a few considerations , okay , one is the price consideration , one is future consideration , okay , like uh you can eat uh you can all eat more chi i can eat more chilli , okay , so i it 's a depends on the individual taste , you know , industrial designer: project manager: so we have we have to balance somewhere . user interface: yeah , of course . i 'm just trying to point out that i think that your evaluation and redesign turnaround time is too short well you have no redesign not you personally , but in the project we have no redesign time and project manager: yes . industrial designer: our project does n't um project manager: yeah . industrial designer: ed , d do you know what season of the year or time of the year is the most important for tv remote control sales ? marketing: hmm . industrial designer: would it be the christmas season by any chance ? project manager: the sports time . industrial designer: sports season . which sport season ? marketing: right before the eur the world cup . world soccer . world cup soccer , project manager: football . industrial designer: so so user interface: yeah . marketing: they need those things that they have their hands g occupied and they need to be able to talk to the con remote control . project manager: football . industrial designer: maybe what user interface: industrial designer: so i think what we need to do is perhaps to synchronise the final the the launch of a user-tested device with some special event . marketing: project manager: yes . yes . industrial designer: and and then um user interface: yeah , that 's a good idea . industrial designer: so that gives us a little more time perhaps then we anticipated , because i do n't know when the world cup is , but i 'm sure there 's gon na be one . marketing: or any major sports . industrial designer: or another m major sports event . probably not the um the football games coming up the end of january . i think that might be a little too aggressive um , project manager: yes . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but , so , i 'm just ig uh pointing out a uh a strategy to uh do some additional user testing project manager: research . industrial designer: pri and then to launch um at a a major sports event user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yep . industrial designer: or uh perhaps to uh also user interface: that 's actually good place to advertise it too . industrial designer: and to work with motion pictures . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: there might be some motion pictures that are coming out um that are coming out on d_v_d_ that uh they need to have a m special remote control to work with it , so we could maybe work out a campaign with uh with sony pictures for example . project manager: yes . industrial designer: maybe some management has got uh relationships there we can leverage . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yes , the that of course uh i will convince the management to do that , okay . industrial designer: that 's great . user interface: it 's just something to to keep in mind , 'cause it 's really really important . project manager: sure , sure , yes . user interface: a lot of products have gone out there without being properly user-tested and completely flopped , when in fact it gets re-released a few years down the line with proper testing and it takes off like crazy . industrial designer: disposable diapers is an example of that in fact . user interface: really ? industrial designer: yes , it is one of the first consumer products that was launched about thirty years that was a disposable consumer product , user interface: that i did n't know . industrial designer: and uh people the market had n't really gotten on to the concept that you could use something and then throw it away , 'cause it was n't uh user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but then when they re-launched them thirty years later , they were virtually the same design , project manager: . industrial designer: but people had gotten the throw-away , you know , paper cups and napki y all kinds of things that they had n't um so , you 're right , timing is very important , user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but i think we 've got a good product . project manager: that 's the reason ed is here . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think he can promote the the brand value and the product value . industrial designer: that 's right . it 's gon na be very important to the company . project manager: yes . we are behind the scene and he is the front screen , so . user interface: yep . project manager: he 's on the big screen . marketing: yeah , i 'm the one who takes the heat . user interface: exactly . industrial designer: good luck , ed . marketing: if it 's a flop , it 's the marketer . industrial designer: you look very relaxed , considering h you know , the uh the weight on your shoulders , yeah . marketing: yes . yes . stress . user interface: project manager: okay , so then uh let 's come to the closing and uh are the costs within the budget marketing: celebration . project manager: and uh is the product evaluated , okay , so that will uh come soon . okay for uh but our time being , so thanks for all your efforts and great work and uh great design and uh let 's leave it to the ed for later for once production is over and the meantime let 's celebrate . so let 's meet up uh this evening to hang up for some party . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: sounds good . project manager: 's good . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: okay . marketing: very good . industrial designer: nice working with you . marketing: thank you very much . project manager: thank you . thank you again for all . user interface: thanks industrial designer: user interface: project manager: and see you in the evening for drinks . marketing: bye-bye . yep , okay , see you later on . user interface: bye .

user interface presented the function , customizability and appearance ( colour , material and shape ) of the remote control . then the group discussed the location of the microphone as well as the weight and shape of the buttons . project manager suggested that the microphone should be under the flip while user interface argued that it should be on the side . user interface also proposed that the buttons should be made in egg shape and of plasticine .

what did user interface introduce about the detailed design of the prototype ? </s> project manager: welcome back . industrial designer: i 'm sorry to be late . project manager: welcome back everybody . user interface: yeah . thanks . project manager: so this meeting agenda will be the detailed design meeting . and uh opening and uh pms of the meet minutes , uh prototype presentation from uh christine and uh agnes . industrial designer: agnes , yes . project manager: yes and uh evaluation criteria . the finance , it 's uh from my side , from the management , and uh production evaluation . then uh closing . so we have forty minutes to discuss and uh finalise and close the product and project and to move further , okay , so okay , let 's talk about uh maybe first uh for the prototype . user interface: mm , okay . project manager: so i handle to user interface: i 've done a presentation , but it pretty much covers work that we 've both done , so if i 'm missing anything , christine can just correct me . project manager: so shall i go to sorry . industrial designer: uh thank you , so you did a powerpoint presentation , good for you . project manager: yep . s okay , let 's go to ami . user interface: it 's not the biggest powerpoint presentation in the world , but industrial designer: marketing: project manager: so in two or three or industrial designer: user interface: three . um . no it 's marketing: probably . technical pa i would think . user interface: think it 's the last one . no , then this is the la yeah , that one , final design . marketing: ha . project manager: yeah . user interface: it is named appropriately , you just could n't see the name . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: um okay , can i have the mouse ? project manager: yes . user interface: thanks . alright , so from when we were discussing specifying the case in the last meeting , we decided that we wanted an ergonomic shape , the material that we chose was wood , and uh the colour would be customisable , 'cause you can stain the wood whatever colour . um , so in terms of function , you have to be able to turn the tv on and off , volume and channel control , menu control , voice recognition control , and we 've incorporated the lcd screen on the flip panel as part of the design , if we figure out it 's too expensive , well then you just take it off . um , so to unveil our lovely product . this is our remote control , with the flip panel as you can see . marketing: user interface: so if you lift up the panel , you can see the lovely yellow lcd display . um , this is actually hard to do . the yellow button you have is the on off button , so it 's really big , hard to miss . you have the the red um triangles are the toggles for changing the volume . so up volume up , down volume down . the green are the channel changing . s and it 's one of those very light , very touchable displays . and then you have the numeric pad in the dark blue at the bottom , and on the right-hand side you have the access to the menu on the tv , and on the left-hand side you have the the the ability to turn off the voice recognition . so this is pretty much what we had on the white board the last time . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so . industrial designer: um and uh i could user interface: oh yes . industrial designer: yeah the d user interface: additional feature on the back is that you can have your own customised backing and i suppose you could do the same thing on the flip case on the front . so that you can really make this a highly highly customisable remote control . industrial designer: we have n't um uh specified where the speaker or the microphone will be placed . that depends on the uh s design of the circuit board inside and uh what room is left um user interface: yeah . project manager: i think the microphone is on on the top , uh on the middle , the under the flip . industrial designer: yes , okay . uh-huh . project manager: so that will be the safe , so p any the chip it 's not on the chip because you need to have microphone to industrial designer: no , i mean it depends on the design of the circuit board . project manager: yes . user interface: but it should n't be under the flip either , because you can have the remote control closed , but you still might want to activate it by voice . project manager: uh it 's it 's yeah , but uh uh my opinion i think it 's better under the flip because whenever you want to uh the talk , okay , so then you can speak then you can close it . but if you put it on the on the flip , okay , then uh technical i do n't think it 's uh feasible , 'cause most of the time you speak then it will be recognised . user interface: but if you 've already got the remote control in your hand you need to open the flip to use the voice , why use the voice , why not just use your hand ? i mean the whole point of the voice is that if the remote control is sitting there and i 'm too lazy to reach over and pick it up , i can just use my voice . industrial designer: maybe i 've got my hand in the popcorn bowl and i 'm holding my cup of coca-cola in the other hand . user interface: yeah . and you do n't wan na let go of either one . marketing: i do n't wan na say . louder . yeah . user interface: i mean it does n't have to be on the flip , it can be on the side somewhere . marketing: can also be on the side . project manager: yeah , the sides maybe is good . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so , i mean i can pass this around if anyone wants to project manager: yes . so it 's maybe good idea . industrial designer: yeah , y better you pass it around with a napkin . user interface: marketing: no , because y you can easily put a microphone on the side that would have no problem would have n't been not be damaged or anything , and it 'd be accessible all the time to voice . user interface: yeah . project manager: yes . yeah . user interface: yeah , exactly . marketing: yeah . project manager: so it 's maybe good idea . s s industrial designer: it 's um it 's um marketing: compliments to the artist . industrial designer: you need to work on the weight a little bit . user interface: yes . marketing: uh . project manager: okay . s i 'm fine , i 'm satisfi user interface: and maybe the shape of the buttons , project manager: i 'm satisfied . user interface: the little egg shapes are n't the most economical , but industrial designer: we 're glad you 're satisfied . project manager: of course it 's it 's it 's looks more heo heavy , but i think when it 's completely maybe it 's a less weight . user interface: yeah . i mean this is plasticene . project manager: yes . user interface: there 's only so much you can do . we could have possibly made it a lot thinner as well . but and part of the thing is m a lot of people say that they do n't like something that 's too light , because they do n't feel like they have enough control over it . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so i mean maybe this is excessively heavy , but i think it needs to have some weight , project manager: yep . user interface: it needs to feel like you 're still holding something . so that 's pretty much it for our presentation actually . project manager: that 's your uh prototype model ? user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , that 's good , thank you very much . marketing: project manager: so any comments or uh marketing: well , the prototype is is very well within the design and ideas that we 've we 've talked about on the previous meetings . project manager: okay . marketing: now it goes into this next phase as the financial uh marketing uh project manager: yes , that uh so i 'll come back to the so evaluation criteria , i think uh that will be good , so then let 's come to the finance uh , i have some uh calculations which i made uh as for uh the budget . so here you can uh look like uh the energy and uh dynamo and uh kinetic and solar cells . uh it 's optional , somewhat optional and ed wants the chip on print , that 's what uh we were talking about that . industrial designer: project manager: so then we have sample sensor and sample speaker , then uh we have the wood material , then special colour and push button . so it 's uh actually , our budget was uh twelve point five euro , but uh it 's coming to nine point nine five euro , so we are under uh below the budget , okay , so still we are saving some money . i think it 's a good figure . industrial designer: yes , great i i 'm surprised . marketing: industrial designer: congratulations . project manager: than thank you . marketing: well we have n't come to mine yet , so industrial designer: oh , okay user interface: industrial designer: . it 's gon na cost a long way to c you know , cost a lot of money to market it , is it ? marketing: we 're gon na have a bit of difference of opinion , yes . project manager: so maybe it 's for some money we can utilise for our uh marketing , for the sales , okay , and uh marketing: well , it just depends on if we 're gon na add a o on this pr provisionary cost analysis , we do not have a l_c_ display . l_c_ display is gon na be very expensive , user interface: no we do , but it 's not filled in . marketing: it 's gon na be project manager: it 's not . industrial designer: thirty . marketing: it 's not it does n't say . user interface: it 's number thirty . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: we do n't have the price up there , user interface: oh , yeah , yeah , project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: you 're right , sorry , yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay , so if we add approximately two to three euro per remote , now we 're up around about twelve , twelve and a half as to what uh the company had initially uh requested . um industrial designer: so that means we can put the uh the lcd in , yeah . marketing: display in . but as far as production um i 'm putting up a question because we 're talking about profit also , and in mine you 'll see uh the problem with uh our survey , the p the possibility that how many units can be sold , what percentage of the market , etcetera etcetera because that has to be taken in into consideration . project manager: marketing: uh this is just production cost , it is not uh advertising cost , it 's not transportation cost uh project manager: yes , so still uh we have twelve point five euro . marketing: and that will inflate quite a bit the cost of the uh the cost of the unit for the company . project manager: yes . yeah , but yes . yep . user interface: um-hmm . marketing: so to come up with what the company wants is a fifty million pound profit , we 're gon na have to go a long ways . project manager: yes . this we are talking about one unit , okay , so when it go into the quantity , okay , and the cost will come down . marketing: yes . industrial designer: although customisation , because this is being done , you know , the on on-order basis , it might be uh the the quantity wo n't m wo n't uh marketing: slightly . project manager: yeah . marketing: it 's gon na be very hard to reduce . user interface: yes . industrial designer: the circuit board will b you 're right , would be in producing quantity , but the cost of the case would uh be fixed at the uh you got some pretty cheap labour that can do this case for one euro . marketing: that 's not bad . industrial designer: that 's really that 's the cost of the material and lab wow , that 's really outstanding . project manager: yep . yeah . but anyhow , still we are under control , okay , so what uh i will do is i will try to negotiate with the vendors , okay , to get uh the production cost less , okay , so then we can save some money , okay , to put into th our marketing or uh you know the promotions , whatever , okay , so that uh i will look after . i will speak to the management and how to get uh you know some more uh cost down . marketing: if we can go to to my display . and we 'll come back to yours project manager: yes . marketing: just to give everybody an idea of the market . so now i 'm gon na scare everybody out of this project . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: if i 'm still here . project manager: you 're in four ? marketing: yep the four gives me it 's got ta be uh trendwatch . project manager: trendwatch . industrial designer: is this the same one you did before ? marketing: no . industrial designer: okay . marketing: it should n't be user interface: that 's no , i think it 's the same one . marketing: if it 's not it 's not the right one . no , no we g no , that 's the same one . you have to go back and find another one . whatever name it popped up under . project manager: user interface: functional . marketing: uh functional , try functional , it might not be it either , but we 'll see . industrial designer: user interface: it looks like it , there 's s yeah . marketing: yep , that 's it . so we 'll go screen by screen . project manager: okay . marketing: although since uh we need to have some type of idea on a market uh we had independent study that says it this this market has an availability to absorb eight mi eight million units per year . okay ? our internal company evaluation puts it between eight to nine million which is approximately the same as the independent study . project manager: yep . marketing: so if we continue , we 'll look at the findings . next screen . which means that uh if we have a target of two million would the company has to take twenty five percent of the market in the first year , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: which is actually a tremendous amount . industrial designer: yeah , no kidding . marketing: no kidding , yeah . industrial designer: mayb maybe they already expected something . marketing: so , if we put an inflated price of fifty euro at a production cost that can not exceed twenty-five euro , okay , we 're already in that that price , okay , project manager: yes . marketing: with transport , promotion , labour , because we hav gi included the promotion in the cost , transport for the material to the stores or whatever how however we 're gon na break this down between our our retailers . user interface: um-hmm . marketing: twenty-five percent of the market to get to two million units . at two million units , we have to have a profit of twenty-five euro per unit to get to the fifty million unit eu euro profit . project manager: mm-hmm . yep . marketing: okay ? so , obviously we w w i just did a run down the evaluation of the form , the fan uh the fancy stylishness of the of the unit , the ease of use , speech recognition , cost , we 've gone through these . now , the company must evaluate the feasibility of being able to take enough of the market to justify in production . or we project this over two years , but being that the market changes very very quickly , maybe there 's no more interest in buying this thing in eighteen months from now . project manager: yes . yep . of course . marketing: so , now we have to come up with a decision . user interface: mm . marketing: can the company sell two million units ? project manager: yep . marketing: can it sell it for fifty euros ? industrial designer: could could i go to findings ? project manager: yep . industrial designer: uh uh um i would uh like to explore the possibility of using um alternative um delivery and sales channel which would be um to use the internet for promotion and ordering project manager: yes . user interface: i was thinking the same thing , yeah . industrial designer: and then to drop-ship the p product to the customer 's residence . user interface: directly . industrial designer: that way you have no storage , you have no um you do have transportation , still have the labour cost , user interface: um-hmm . industrial designer: but you do n't have the transport to the uh point of sale . project manager: yes . industrial designer: the point of sale is online . user interface: yeah . project manager: to the agents . user interface: yeah . you can do a shipping centre somewhere , or strategically place shipping centres to minimise distance costs . industrial designer: right , like amazon . in fact , we should sell through amazon , project manager: yes . or ebay , or industrial designer: do n't you think ? or ebay , yeah . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: there 's an idea . marketing: project manager: yeah , that 's a good idea . industrial designer: going with um project manager: to impro more profit and uh marketing: s upscale technology . project manager: yeah , yes . industrial designer: ah , we we 're do you know , selling a unique product uh . marketing: well . user interface: that actually makes more sense if we 're gon na make it so highly customisable , 'cause on the web people can look at the different options they have , see maybe what other people have done , what the range of possibility as , industrial designer: mm . marketing: there are several companies that have gone that way . user interface: whereas if you 're in a store , you ca n't unless you 're a highly imaginative person , you may not really know what it is you want , industrial designer: mm . user interface: whereas on the web , if you have a bunch of pictures , it can sort of trigger ideas and industrial designer: mm-hmm . and you can even have an a movie that you can rotate the object and look at the di the only thing that you 're missing really is the weight . user interface: yeah . the weight and feel . marketing: weight , the feel of the product , but industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we 're getting used to that . it 's not quite like trying on a shoe , but people are getting used to buying things online that they ca n't touch before buying . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: there are several that have gone through with the watches , too . you can customise a watch , you can see how it is at the f at the end of the production , industrial designer: uh-huh . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: you can change it uh there 's a lot of online that 's that is doing this now . user interface: yes . marketing: and when you 're rotating , you 'll look behind and look this way uh it 's possible to do with this , maybe there 's a possibility of selling more than two million units in one year , which could you know , feasibili feasibility uh lower the price of the unit . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: we can . industrial designer: great . project manager: i do n't think that 's uh not possible , it 's uh okay then , l uh let 's wait for the production , okay , then uh you can evaluate the product , so how it looks like technically and uh how it look like uh the real . user interface: what turnaround time do we have ? project manager: t user interface: 'cause i mean production evaluation can be very very quick or very very long . project manager: oh but yes it 's it 's very quick , of course . it will uh come back in two weeks , okay , it will be ready in two weeks . industrial designer: works for me . project manager: for evaluation , okay . industrial designer: prototypes , you mean . project manager: yes , the prototype uh prototype product evaluation . industrial designer: in um we probably should do some market tests uh once we have the prototypes and do some orders and things like that and test-market it . project manager: yes . yes . yes . marketing: well , obviously . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm that 'd have to be thrown out on the market for people to get an idea , project manager: so you can take a minimum two weeks to a maximum four weeks . marketing: to see get get their user interface: mm-hmm . think minimum two weeks if we 're gon na develop prototypes and then try to take them to different places and see how people use project manager: yeah . user interface: it 's not a trivial task . project manager: yeah , because we we are not going to do it in uh our factory , okay , so we can give it a product evalua user interface: no no . we definitely should n't do it in our factory . project manager: yes , yes . industrial designer: project manager: so we 'll do it in the other place , and i do n't think it 's take more than four weeks time . or uh okay , so then the real production we will start once we product evaluation , okay , then uh it 's approve from uh the technical team and uh your team , okay , uh from the management , then we can launch in the market . hm ? industrial designer: any outstanding ? project manager: s any any other uh questions or uh comments to be discuss ? industrial designer: no , i 'm user interface: what ab industrial designer: go ahead . marketing: i think we pretty much covered everything . project manager: okay , so then uh industrial designer: did you have something ? user interface: well i was just wondering about if we 're gon na do a product evaluation then what about time for redesign if the users come back and tell us no this is bad , this is bad , we want this done differently . project manager: okay uh , let 's take like this . let 's proceed with this model , okay , for the for the marketing direction , okay . industrial designer: project manager: so no more changes will be made , okay , in this the basic design . okay ? so we will introduce m this model and uh let 's introduce in the market and let 's take the feedback from the customers , then we can uh go for the industrial designer: second generation . project manager: second generation . user interface: project manager: okay . there 's no end , there 's not limit . industrial designer: user interface: the problem is there might not be a second generation if the first generation flops for some silly reason that we have n't thought of . project manager: every every custom industrial designer: marketing: well , then it may not be . project manager: okay . well , every customer , okay , they have their own ideas , they have their own test , okay , so there 's no end , there 's no limit . marketing: like people do n't like wood . user interface: no , but there 's a difference between releasing a product that has been minimally tested and fine-tuned to suit a general range of requirements versus releasing a product that we think will work but we do n't really have anything to back it up . marketing: very specific . project manager: yeah , so that 's the reason you are here for uh the design , okay , i hope you made a good design . user interface: yes , but i 'm not everybody . industrial designer: user interface: i mean the whole point of user evaluation is to see what real people need . we have our own motivations in mind , we have our own ideas in mind , but that does n't mean that that 's what 's gon na sell . project manager: yeah , but uh see , we ought to take a few considerations , okay , one is the price consideration , one is future consideration , okay , like uh you can eat uh you can all eat more chi i can eat more chilli , okay , so i it 's a depends on the individual taste , you know , industrial designer: project manager: so we have we have to balance somewhere . user interface: yeah , of course . i 'm just trying to point out that i think that your evaluation and redesign turnaround time is too short well you have no redesign not you personally , but in the project we have no redesign time and project manager: yes . industrial designer: our project does n't um project manager: yeah . industrial designer: ed , d do you know what season of the year or time of the year is the most important for tv remote control sales ? marketing: hmm . industrial designer: would it be the christmas season by any chance ? project manager: the sports time . industrial designer: sports season . which sport season ? marketing: right before the eur the world cup . world soccer . world cup soccer , project manager: football . industrial designer: so so user interface: yeah . marketing: they need those things that they have their hands g occupied and they need to be able to talk to the con remote control . project manager: football . industrial designer: maybe what user interface: industrial designer: so i think what we need to do is perhaps to synchronise the final the the launch of a user-tested device with some special event . marketing: project manager: yes . yes . industrial designer: and and then um user interface: yeah , that 's a good idea . industrial designer: so that gives us a little more time perhaps then we anticipated , because i do n't know when the world cup is , but i 'm sure there 's gon na be one . marketing: or any major sports . industrial designer: or another m major sports event . probably not the um the football games coming up the end of january . i think that might be a little too aggressive um , project manager: yes . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but , so , i 'm just ig uh pointing out a uh a strategy to uh do some additional user testing project manager: research . industrial designer: pri and then to launch um at a a major sports event user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yep . industrial designer: or uh perhaps to uh also user interface: that 's actually good place to advertise it too . industrial designer: and to work with motion pictures . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: there might be some motion pictures that are coming out um that are coming out on d_v_d_ that uh they need to have a m special remote control to work with it , so we could maybe work out a campaign with uh with sony pictures for example . project manager: yes . industrial designer: maybe some management has got uh relationships there we can leverage . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yes , the that of course uh i will convince the management to do that , okay . industrial designer: that 's great . user interface: it 's just something to to keep in mind , 'cause it 's really really important . project manager: sure , sure , yes . user interface: a lot of products have gone out there without being properly user-tested and completely flopped , when in fact it gets re-released a few years down the line with proper testing and it takes off like crazy . industrial designer: disposable diapers is an example of that in fact . user interface: really ? industrial designer: yes , it is one of the first consumer products that was launched about thirty years that was a disposable consumer product , user interface: that i did n't know . industrial designer: and uh people the market had n't really gotten on to the concept that you could use something and then throw it away , 'cause it was n't uh user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but then when they re-launched them thirty years later , they were virtually the same design , project manager: . industrial designer: but people had gotten the throw-away , you know , paper cups and napki y all kinds of things that they had n't um so , you 're right , timing is very important , user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but i think we 've got a good product . project manager: that 's the reason ed is here . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think he can promote the the brand value and the product value . industrial designer: that 's right . it 's gon na be very important to the company . project manager: yes . we are behind the scene and he is the front screen , so . user interface: yep . project manager: he 's on the big screen . marketing: yeah , i 'm the one who takes the heat . user interface: exactly . industrial designer: good luck , ed . marketing: if it 's a flop , it 's the marketer . industrial designer: you look very relaxed , considering h you know , the uh the weight on your shoulders , yeah . marketing: yes . yes . stress . user interface: project manager: okay , so then uh let 's come to the closing and uh are the costs within the budget marketing: celebration . project manager: and uh is the product evaluated , okay , so that will uh come soon . okay for uh but our time being , so thanks for all your efforts and great work and uh great design and uh let 's leave it to the ed for later for once production is over and the meantime let 's celebrate . so let 's meet up uh this evening to hang up for some party . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: sounds good . project manager: 's good . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: okay . marketing: very good . industrial designer: nice working with you . marketing: thank you very much . project manager: thank you . thank you again for all . user interface: thanks industrial designer: user interface: project manager: and see you in the evening for drinks . marketing: bye-bye . yep , okay , see you later on . user interface: bye .

user interface suggested that the prototype of the remote control would have an ergonomic shape , be made out of wood and the colour would be customisable . user interface also introduced the general layout of the white board under the flip : the big yellow button would be charged for turning the tv on and off , the red triangle one would be used to change the volume , while the green one controlled the channel changing . there would be a dark blue numeric pad at the bottom and an lcd screen on the flip panel . the prototype would have a customised backing and front .

what did the group determine on the evaluation criteria of the detailed design ? </s> project manager: welcome back . industrial designer: i 'm sorry to be late . project manager: welcome back everybody . user interface: yeah . thanks . project manager: so this meeting agenda will be the detailed design meeting . and uh opening and uh pms of the meet minutes , uh prototype presentation from uh christine and uh agnes . industrial designer: agnes , yes . project manager: yes and uh evaluation criteria . the finance , it 's uh from my side , from the management , and uh production evaluation . then uh closing . so we have forty minutes to discuss and uh finalise and close the product and project and to move further , okay , so okay , let 's talk about uh maybe first uh for the prototype . user interface: mm , okay . project manager: so i handle to user interface: i 've done a presentation , but it pretty much covers work that we 've both done , so if i 'm missing anything , christine can just correct me . project manager: so shall i go to sorry . industrial designer: uh thank you , so you did a powerpoint presentation , good for you . project manager: yep . s okay , let 's go to ami . user interface: it 's not the biggest powerpoint presentation in the world , but industrial designer: marketing: project manager: so in two or three or industrial designer: user interface: three . um . no it 's marketing: probably . technical pa i would think . user interface: think it 's the last one . no , then this is the la yeah , that one , final design . marketing: ha . project manager: yeah . user interface: it is named appropriately , you just could n't see the name . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: um okay , can i have the mouse ? project manager: yes . user interface: thanks . alright , so from when we were discussing specifying the case in the last meeting , we decided that we wanted an ergonomic shape , the material that we chose was wood , and uh the colour would be customisable , 'cause you can stain the wood whatever colour . um , so in terms of function , you have to be able to turn the tv on and off , volume and channel control , menu control , voice recognition control , and we 've incorporated the lcd screen on the flip panel as part of the design , if we figure out it 's too expensive , well then you just take it off . um , so to unveil our lovely product . this is our remote control , with the flip panel as you can see . marketing: user interface: so if you lift up the panel , you can see the lovely yellow lcd display . um , this is actually hard to do . the yellow button you have is the on off button , so it 's really big , hard to miss . you have the the red um triangles are the toggles for changing the volume . so up volume up , down volume down . the green are the channel changing . s and it 's one of those very light , very touchable displays . and then you have the numeric pad in the dark blue at the bottom , and on the right-hand side you have the access to the menu on the tv , and on the left-hand side you have the the the ability to turn off the voice recognition . so this is pretty much what we had on the white board the last time . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so . industrial designer: um and uh i could user interface: oh yes . industrial designer: yeah the d user interface: additional feature on the back is that you can have your own customised backing and i suppose you could do the same thing on the flip case on the front . so that you can really make this a highly highly customisable remote control . industrial designer: we have n't um uh specified where the speaker or the microphone will be placed . that depends on the uh s design of the circuit board inside and uh what room is left um user interface: yeah . project manager: i think the microphone is on on the top , uh on the middle , the under the flip . industrial designer: yes , okay . uh-huh . project manager: so that will be the safe , so p any the chip it 's not on the chip because you need to have microphone to industrial designer: no , i mean it depends on the design of the circuit board . project manager: yes . user interface: but it should n't be under the flip either , because you can have the remote control closed , but you still might want to activate it by voice . project manager: uh it 's it 's yeah , but uh uh my opinion i think it 's better under the flip because whenever you want to uh the talk , okay , so then you can speak then you can close it . but if you put it on the on the flip , okay , then uh technical i do n't think it 's uh feasible , 'cause most of the time you speak then it will be recognised . user interface: but if you 've already got the remote control in your hand you need to open the flip to use the voice , why use the voice , why not just use your hand ? i mean the whole point of the voice is that if the remote control is sitting there and i 'm too lazy to reach over and pick it up , i can just use my voice . industrial designer: maybe i 've got my hand in the popcorn bowl and i 'm holding my cup of coca-cola in the other hand . user interface: yeah . and you do n't wan na let go of either one . marketing: i do n't wan na say . louder . yeah . user interface: i mean it does n't have to be on the flip , it can be on the side somewhere . marketing: can also be on the side . project manager: yeah , the sides maybe is good . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so , i mean i can pass this around if anyone wants to project manager: yes . so it 's maybe good idea . industrial designer: yeah , y better you pass it around with a napkin . user interface: marketing: no , because y you can easily put a microphone on the side that would have no problem would have n't been not be damaged or anything , and it 'd be accessible all the time to voice . user interface: yeah . project manager: yes . yeah . user interface: yeah , exactly . marketing: yeah . project manager: so it 's maybe good idea . s s industrial designer: it 's um it 's um marketing: compliments to the artist . industrial designer: you need to work on the weight a little bit . user interface: yes . marketing: uh . project manager: okay . s i 'm fine , i 'm satisfi user interface: and maybe the shape of the buttons , project manager: i 'm satisfied . user interface: the little egg shapes are n't the most economical , but industrial designer: we 're glad you 're satisfied . project manager: of course it 's it 's it 's looks more heo heavy , but i think when it 's completely maybe it 's a less weight . user interface: yeah . i mean this is plasticene . project manager: yes . user interface: there 's only so much you can do . we could have possibly made it a lot thinner as well . but and part of the thing is m a lot of people say that they do n't like something that 's too light , because they do n't feel like they have enough control over it . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so i mean maybe this is excessively heavy , but i think it needs to have some weight , project manager: yep . user interface: it needs to feel like you 're still holding something . so that 's pretty much it for our presentation actually . project manager: that 's your uh prototype model ? user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , that 's good , thank you very much . marketing: project manager: so any comments or uh marketing: well , the prototype is is very well within the design and ideas that we 've we 've talked about on the previous meetings . project manager: okay . marketing: now it goes into this next phase as the financial uh marketing uh project manager: yes , that uh so i 'll come back to the so evaluation criteria , i think uh that will be good , so then let 's come to the finance uh , i have some uh calculations which i made uh as for uh the budget . so here you can uh look like uh the energy and uh dynamo and uh kinetic and solar cells . uh it 's optional , somewhat optional and ed wants the chip on print , that 's what uh we were talking about that . industrial designer: project manager: so then we have sample sensor and sample speaker , then uh we have the wood material , then special colour and push button . so it 's uh actually , our budget was uh twelve point five euro , but uh it 's coming to nine point nine five euro , so we are under uh below the budget , okay , so still we are saving some money . i think it 's a good figure . industrial designer: yes , great i i 'm surprised . marketing: industrial designer: congratulations . project manager: than thank you . marketing: well we have n't come to mine yet , so industrial designer: oh , okay user interface: industrial designer: . it 's gon na cost a long way to c you know , cost a lot of money to market it , is it ? marketing: we 're gon na have a bit of difference of opinion , yes . project manager: so maybe it 's for some money we can utilise for our uh marketing , for the sales , okay , and uh marketing: well , it just depends on if we 're gon na add a o on this pr provisionary cost analysis , we do not have a l_c_ display . l_c_ display is gon na be very expensive , user interface: no we do , but it 's not filled in . marketing: it 's gon na be project manager: it 's not . industrial designer: thirty . marketing: it 's not it does n't say . user interface: it 's number thirty . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: we do n't have the price up there , user interface: oh , yeah , yeah , project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: you 're right , sorry , yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay , so if we add approximately two to three euro per remote , now we 're up around about twelve , twelve and a half as to what uh the company had initially uh requested . um industrial designer: so that means we can put the uh the lcd in , yeah . marketing: display in . but as far as production um i 'm putting up a question because we 're talking about profit also , and in mine you 'll see uh the problem with uh our survey , the p the possibility that how many units can be sold , what percentage of the market , etcetera etcetera because that has to be taken in into consideration . project manager: marketing: uh this is just production cost , it is not uh advertising cost , it 's not transportation cost uh project manager: yes , so still uh we have twelve point five euro . marketing: and that will inflate quite a bit the cost of the uh the cost of the unit for the company . project manager: yes . yeah , but yes . yep . user interface: um-hmm . marketing: so to come up with what the company wants is a fifty million pound profit , we 're gon na have to go a long ways . project manager: yes . this we are talking about one unit , okay , so when it go into the quantity , okay , and the cost will come down . marketing: yes . industrial designer: although customisation , because this is being done , you know , the on on-order basis , it might be uh the the quantity wo n't m wo n't uh marketing: slightly . project manager: yeah . marketing: it 's gon na be very hard to reduce . user interface: yes . industrial designer: the circuit board will b you 're right , would be in producing quantity , but the cost of the case would uh be fixed at the uh you got some pretty cheap labour that can do this case for one euro . marketing: that 's not bad . industrial designer: that 's really that 's the cost of the material and lab wow , that 's really outstanding . project manager: yep . yeah . but anyhow , still we are under control , okay , so what uh i will do is i will try to negotiate with the vendors , okay , to get uh the production cost less , okay , so then we can save some money , okay , to put into th our marketing or uh you know the promotions , whatever , okay , so that uh i will look after . i will speak to the management and how to get uh you know some more uh cost down . marketing: if we can go to to my display . and we 'll come back to yours project manager: yes . marketing: just to give everybody an idea of the market . so now i 'm gon na scare everybody out of this project . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: if i 'm still here . project manager: you 're in four ? marketing: yep the four gives me it 's got ta be uh trendwatch . project manager: trendwatch . industrial designer: is this the same one you did before ? marketing: no . industrial designer: okay . marketing: it should n't be user interface: that 's no , i think it 's the same one . marketing: if it 's not it 's not the right one . no , no we g no , that 's the same one . you have to go back and find another one . whatever name it popped up under . project manager: user interface: functional . marketing: uh functional , try functional , it might not be it either , but we 'll see . industrial designer: user interface: it looks like it , there 's s yeah . marketing: yep , that 's it . so we 'll go screen by screen . project manager: okay . marketing: although since uh we need to have some type of idea on a market uh we had independent study that says it this this market has an availability to absorb eight mi eight million units per year . okay ? our internal company evaluation puts it between eight to nine million which is approximately the same as the independent study . project manager: yep . marketing: so if we continue , we 'll look at the findings . next screen . which means that uh if we have a target of two million would the company has to take twenty five percent of the market in the first year , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: which is actually a tremendous amount . industrial designer: yeah , no kidding . marketing: no kidding , yeah . industrial designer: mayb maybe they already expected something . marketing: so , if we put an inflated price of fifty euro at a production cost that can not exceed twenty-five euro , okay , we 're already in that that price , okay , project manager: yes . marketing: with transport , promotion , labour , because we hav gi included the promotion in the cost , transport for the material to the stores or whatever how however we 're gon na break this down between our our retailers . user interface: um-hmm . marketing: twenty-five percent of the market to get to two million units . at two million units , we have to have a profit of twenty-five euro per unit to get to the fifty million unit eu euro profit . project manager: mm-hmm . yep . marketing: okay ? so , obviously we w w i just did a run down the evaluation of the form , the fan uh the fancy stylishness of the of the unit , the ease of use , speech recognition , cost , we 've gone through these . now , the company must evaluate the feasibility of being able to take enough of the market to justify in production . or we project this over two years , but being that the market changes very very quickly , maybe there 's no more interest in buying this thing in eighteen months from now . project manager: yes . yep . of course . marketing: so , now we have to come up with a decision . user interface: mm . marketing: can the company sell two million units ? project manager: yep . marketing: can it sell it for fifty euros ? industrial designer: could could i go to findings ? project manager: yep . industrial designer: uh uh um i would uh like to explore the possibility of using um alternative um delivery and sales channel which would be um to use the internet for promotion and ordering project manager: yes . user interface: i was thinking the same thing , yeah . industrial designer: and then to drop-ship the p product to the customer 's residence . user interface: directly . industrial designer: that way you have no storage , you have no um you do have transportation , still have the labour cost , user interface: um-hmm . industrial designer: but you do n't have the transport to the uh point of sale . project manager: yes . industrial designer: the point of sale is online . user interface: yeah . project manager: to the agents . user interface: yeah . you can do a shipping centre somewhere , or strategically place shipping centres to minimise distance costs . industrial designer: right , like amazon . in fact , we should sell through amazon , project manager: yes . or ebay , or industrial designer: do n't you think ? or ebay , yeah . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: there 's an idea . marketing: project manager: yeah , that 's a good idea . industrial designer: going with um project manager: to impro more profit and uh marketing: s upscale technology . project manager: yeah , yes . industrial designer: ah , we we 're do you know , selling a unique product uh . marketing: well . user interface: that actually makes more sense if we 're gon na make it so highly customisable , 'cause on the web people can look at the different options they have , see maybe what other people have done , what the range of possibility as , industrial designer: mm . marketing: there are several companies that have gone that way . user interface: whereas if you 're in a store , you ca n't unless you 're a highly imaginative person , you may not really know what it is you want , industrial designer: mm . user interface: whereas on the web , if you have a bunch of pictures , it can sort of trigger ideas and industrial designer: mm-hmm . and you can even have an a movie that you can rotate the object and look at the di the only thing that you 're missing really is the weight . user interface: yeah . the weight and feel . marketing: weight , the feel of the product , but industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we 're getting used to that . it 's not quite like trying on a shoe , but people are getting used to buying things online that they ca n't touch before buying . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: there are several that have gone through with the watches , too . you can customise a watch , you can see how it is at the f at the end of the production , industrial designer: uh-huh . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: you can change it uh there 's a lot of online that 's that is doing this now . user interface: yes . marketing: and when you 're rotating , you 'll look behind and look this way uh it 's possible to do with this , maybe there 's a possibility of selling more than two million units in one year , which could you know , feasibili feasibility uh lower the price of the unit . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: we can . industrial designer: great . project manager: i do n't think that 's uh not possible , it 's uh okay then , l uh let 's wait for the production , okay , then uh you can evaluate the product , so how it looks like technically and uh how it look like uh the real . user interface: what turnaround time do we have ? project manager: t user interface: 'cause i mean production evaluation can be very very quick or very very long . project manager: oh but yes it 's it 's very quick , of course . it will uh come back in two weeks , okay , it will be ready in two weeks . industrial designer: works for me . project manager: for evaluation , okay . industrial designer: prototypes , you mean . project manager: yes , the prototype uh prototype product evaluation . industrial designer: in um we probably should do some market tests uh once we have the prototypes and do some orders and things like that and test-market it . project manager: yes . yes . yes . marketing: well , obviously . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm that 'd have to be thrown out on the market for people to get an idea , project manager: so you can take a minimum two weeks to a maximum four weeks . marketing: to see get get their user interface: mm-hmm . think minimum two weeks if we 're gon na develop prototypes and then try to take them to different places and see how people use project manager: yeah . user interface: it 's not a trivial task . project manager: yeah , because we we are not going to do it in uh our factory , okay , so we can give it a product evalua user interface: no no . we definitely should n't do it in our factory . project manager: yes , yes . industrial designer: project manager: so we 'll do it in the other place , and i do n't think it 's take more than four weeks time . or uh okay , so then the real production we will start once we product evaluation , okay , then uh it 's approve from uh the technical team and uh your team , okay , uh from the management , then we can launch in the market . hm ? industrial designer: any outstanding ? project manager: s any any other uh questions or uh comments to be discuss ? industrial designer: no , i 'm user interface: what ab industrial designer: go ahead . marketing: i think we pretty much covered everything . project manager: okay , so then uh industrial designer: did you have something ? user interface: well i was just wondering about if we 're gon na do a product evaluation then what about time for redesign if the users come back and tell us no this is bad , this is bad , we want this done differently . project manager: okay uh , let 's take like this . let 's proceed with this model , okay , for the for the marketing direction , okay . industrial designer: project manager: so no more changes will be made , okay , in this the basic design . okay ? so we will introduce m this model and uh let 's introduce in the market and let 's take the feedback from the customers , then we can uh go for the industrial designer: second generation . project manager: second generation . user interface: project manager: okay . there 's no end , there 's not limit . industrial designer: user interface: the problem is there might not be a second generation if the first generation flops for some silly reason that we have n't thought of . project manager: every every custom industrial designer: marketing: well , then it may not be . project manager: okay . well , every customer , okay , they have their own ideas , they have their own test , okay , so there 's no end , there 's no limit . marketing: like people do n't like wood . user interface: no , but there 's a difference between releasing a product that has been minimally tested and fine-tuned to suit a general range of requirements versus releasing a product that we think will work but we do n't really have anything to back it up . marketing: very specific . project manager: yeah , so that 's the reason you are here for uh the design , okay , i hope you made a good design . user interface: yes , but i 'm not everybody . industrial designer: user interface: i mean the whole point of user evaluation is to see what real people need . we have our own motivations in mind , we have our own ideas in mind , but that does n't mean that that 's what 's gon na sell . project manager: yeah , but uh see , we ought to take a few considerations , okay , one is the price consideration , one is future consideration , okay , like uh you can eat uh you can all eat more chi i can eat more chilli , okay , so i it 's a depends on the individual taste , you know , industrial designer: project manager: so we have we have to balance somewhere . user interface: yeah , of course . i 'm just trying to point out that i think that your evaluation and redesign turnaround time is too short well you have no redesign not you personally , but in the project we have no redesign time and project manager: yes . industrial designer: our project does n't um project manager: yeah . industrial designer: ed , d do you know what season of the year or time of the year is the most important for tv remote control sales ? marketing: hmm . industrial designer: would it be the christmas season by any chance ? project manager: the sports time . industrial designer: sports season . which sport season ? marketing: right before the eur the world cup . world soccer . world cup soccer , project manager: football . industrial designer: so so user interface: yeah . marketing: they need those things that they have their hands g occupied and they need to be able to talk to the con remote control . project manager: football . industrial designer: maybe what user interface: industrial designer: so i think what we need to do is perhaps to synchronise the final the the launch of a user-tested device with some special event . marketing: project manager: yes . yes . industrial designer: and and then um user interface: yeah , that 's a good idea . industrial designer: so that gives us a little more time perhaps then we anticipated , because i do n't know when the world cup is , but i 'm sure there 's gon na be one . marketing: or any major sports . industrial designer: or another m major sports event . probably not the um the football games coming up the end of january . i think that might be a little too aggressive um , project manager: yes . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but , so , i 'm just ig uh pointing out a uh a strategy to uh do some additional user testing project manager: research . industrial designer: pri and then to launch um at a a major sports event user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yep . industrial designer: or uh perhaps to uh also user interface: that 's actually good place to advertise it too . industrial designer: and to work with motion pictures . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: there might be some motion pictures that are coming out um that are coming out on d_v_d_ that uh they need to have a m special remote control to work with it , so we could maybe work out a campaign with uh with sony pictures for example . project manager: yes . industrial designer: maybe some management has got uh relationships there we can leverage . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yes , the that of course uh i will convince the management to do that , okay . industrial designer: that 's great . user interface: it 's just something to to keep in mind , 'cause it 's really really important . project manager: sure , sure , yes . user interface: a lot of products have gone out there without being properly user-tested and completely flopped , when in fact it gets re-released a few years down the line with proper testing and it takes off like crazy . industrial designer: disposable diapers is an example of that in fact . user interface: really ? industrial designer: yes , it is one of the first consumer products that was launched about thirty years that was a disposable consumer product , user interface: that i did n't know . industrial designer: and uh people the market had n't really gotten on to the concept that you could use something and then throw it away , 'cause it was n't uh user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but then when they re-launched them thirty years later , they were virtually the same design , project manager: . industrial designer: but people had gotten the throw-away , you know , paper cups and napki y all kinds of things that they had n't um so , you 're right , timing is very important , user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but i think we 've got a good product . project manager: that 's the reason ed is here . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think he can promote the the brand value and the product value . industrial designer: that 's right . it 's gon na be very important to the company . project manager: yes . we are behind the scene and he is the front screen , so . user interface: yep . project manager: he 's on the big screen . marketing: yeah , i 'm the one who takes the heat . user interface: exactly . industrial designer: good luck , ed . marketing: if it 's a flop , it 's the marketer . industrial designer: you look very relaxed , considering h you know , the uh the weight on your shoulders , yeah . marketing: yes . yes . stress . user interface: project manager: okay , so then uh let 's come to the closing and uh are the costs within the budget marketing: celebration . project manager: and uh is the product evaluated , okay , so that will uh come soon . okay for uh but our time being , so thanks for all your efforts and great work and uh great design and uh let 's leave it to the ed for later for once production is over and the meantime let 's celebrate . so let 's meet up uh this evening to hang up for some party . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: sounds good . project manager: 's good . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: okay . marketing: very good . industrial designer: nice working with you . marketing: thank you very much . project manager: thank you . thank you again for all . user interface: thanks industrial designer: user interface: project manager: and see you in the evening for drinks . marketing: bye-bye . yep , okay , see you later on . user interface: bye .

industrial designer proposed to specify the location of the microphone . project manager and user interface disagreed with each other . project manager thought the microphone should be under the flip so that users could easily turn off the voice recognition , whereas user interface insisted that microphone should be on the side so that the remote control could be activated by voice even when out of reach .

what did the group discuss about product evaluation ? </s> project manager: welcome back . industrial designer: i 'm sorry to be late . project manager: welcome back everybody . user interface: yeah . thanks . project manager: so this meeting agenda will be the detailed design meeting . and uh opening and uh pms of the meet minutes , uh prototype presentation from uh christine and uh agnes . industrial designer: agnes , yes . project manager: yes and uh evaluation criteria . the finance , it 's uh from my side , from the management , and uh production evaluation . then uh closing . so we have forty minutes to discuss and uh finalise and close the product and project and to move further , okay , so okay , let 's talk about uh maybe first uh for the prototype . user interface: mm , okay . project manager: so i handle to user interface: i 've done a presentation , but it pretty much covers work that we 've both done , so if i 'm missing anything , christine can just correct me . project manager: so shall i go to sorry . industrial designer: uh thank you , so you did a powerpoint presentation , good for you . project manager: yep . s okay , let 's go to ami . user interface: it 's not the biggest powerpoint presentation in the world , but industrial designer: marketing: project manager: so in two or three or industrial designer: user interface: three . um . no it 's marketing: probably . technical pa i would think . user interface: think it 's the last one . no , then this is the la yeah , that one , final design . marketing: ha . project manager: yeah . user interface: it is named appropriately , you just could n't see the name . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: um okay , can i have the mouse ? project manager: yes . user interface: thanks . alright , so from when we were discussing specifying the case in the last meeting , we decided that we wanted an ergonomic shape , the material that we chose was wood , and uh the colour would be customisable , 'cause you can stain the wood whatever colour . um , so in terms of function , you have to be able to turn the tv on and off , volume and channel control , menu control , voice recognition control , and we 've incorporated the lcd screen on the flip panel as part of the design , if we figure out it 's too expensive , well then you just take it off . um , so to unveil our lovely product . this is our remote control , with the flip panel as you can see . marketing: user interface: so if you lift up the panel , you can see the lovely yellow lcd display . um , this is actually hard to do . the yellow button you have is the on off button , so it 's really big , hard to miss . you have the the red um triangles are the toggles for changing the volume . so up volume up , down volume down . the green are the channel changing . s and it 's one of those very light , very touchable displays . and then you have the numeric pad in the dark blue at the bottom , and on the right-hand side you have the access to the menu on the tv , and on the left-hand side you have the the the ability to turn off the voice recognition . so this is pretty much what we had on the white board the last time . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so . industrial designer: um and uh i could user interface: oh yes . industrial designer: yeah the d user interface: additional feature on the back is that you can have your own customised backing and i suppose you could do the same thing on the flip case on the front . so that you can really make this a highly highly customisable remote control . industrial designer: we have n't um uh specified where the speaker or the microphone will be placed . that depends on the uh s design of the circuit board inside and uh what room is left um user interface: yeah . project manager: i think the microphone is on on the top , uh on the middle , the under the flip . industrial designer: yes , okay . uh-huh . project manager: so that will be the safe , so p any the chip it 's not on the chip because you need to have microphone to industrial designer: no , i mean it depends on the design of the circuit board . project manager: yes . user interface: but it should n't be under the flip either , because you can have the remote control closed , but you still might want to activate it by voice . project manager: uh it 's it 's yeah , but uh uh my opinion i think it 's better under the flip because whenever you want to uh the talk , okay , so then you can speak then you can close it . but if you put it on the on the flip , okay , then uh technical i do n't think it 's uh feasible , 'cause most of the time you speak then it will be recognised . user interface: but if you 've already got the remote control in your hand you need to open the flip to use the voice , why use the voice , why not just use your hand ? i mean the whole point of the voice is that if the remote control is sitting there and i 'm too lazy to reach over and pick it up , i can just use my voice . industrial designer: maybe i 've got my hand in the popcorn bowl and i 'm holding my cup of coca-cola in the other hand . user interface: yeah . and you do n't wan na let go of either one . marketing: i do n't wan na say . louder . yeah . user interface: i mean it does n't have to be on the flip , it can be on the side somewhere . marketing: can also be on the side . project manager: yeah , the sides maybe is good . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so , i mean i can pass this around if anyone wants to project manager: yes . so it 's maybe good idea . industrial designer: yeah , y better you pass it around with a napkin . user interface: marketing: no , because y you can easily put a microphone on the side that would have no problem would have n't been not be damaged or anything , and it 'd be accessible all the time to voice . user interface: yeah . project manager: yes . yeah . user interface: yeah , exactly . marketing: yeah . project manager: so it 's maybe good idea . s s industrial designer: it 's um it 's um marketing: compliments to the artist . industrial designer: you need to work on the weight a little bit . user interface: yes . marketing: uh . project manager: okay . s i 'm fine , i 'm satisfi user interface: and maybe the shape of the buttons , project manager: i 'm satisfied . user interface: the little egg shapes are n't the most economical , but industrial designer: we 're glad you 're satisfied . project manager: of course it 's it 's it 's looks more heo heavy , but i think when it 's completely maybe it 's a less weight . user interface: yeah . i mean this is plasticene . project manager: yes . user interface: there 's only so much you can do . we could have possibly made it a lot thinner as well . but and part of the thing is m a lot of people say that they do n't like something that 's too light , because they do n't feel like they have enough control over it . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so i mean maybe this is excessively heavy , but i think it needs to have some weight , project manager: yep . user interface: it needs to feel like you 're still holding something . so that 's pretty much it for our presentation actually . project manager: that 's your uh prototype model ? user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , that 's good , thank you very much . marketing: project manager: so any comments or uh marketing: well , the prototype is is very well within the design and ideas that we 've we 've talked about on the previous meetings . project manager: okay . marketing: now it goes into this next phase as the financial uh marketing uh project manager: yes , that uh so i 'll come back to the so evaluation criteria , i think uh that will be good , so then let 's come to the finance uh , i have some uh calculations which i made uh as for uh the budget . so here you can uh look like uh the energy and uh dynamo and uh kinetic and solar cells . uh it 's optional , somewhat optional and ed wants the chip on print , that 's what uh we were talking about that . industrial designer: project manager: so then we have sample sensor and sample speaker , then uh we have the wood material , then special colour and push button . so it 's uh actually , our budget was uh twelve point five euro , but uh it 's coming to nine point nine five euro , so we are under uh below the budget , okay , so still we are saving some money . i think it 's a good figure . industrial designer: yes , great i i 'm surprised . marketing: industrial designer: congratulations . project manager: than thank you . marketing: well we have n't come to mine yet , so industrial designer: oh , okay user interface: industrial designer: . it 's gon na cost a long way to c you know , cost a lot of money to market it , is it ? marketing: we 're gon na have a bit of difference of opinion , yes . project manager: so maybe it 's for some money we can utilise for our uh marketing , for the sales , okay , and uh marketing: well , it just depends on if we 're gon na add a o on this pr provisionary cost analysis , we do not have a l_c_ display . l_c_ display is gon na be very expensive , user interface: no we do , but it 's not filled in . marketing: it 's gon na be project manager: it 's not . industrial designer: thirty . marketing: it 's not it does n't say . user interface: it 's number thirty . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: we do n't have the price up there , user interface: oh , yeah , yeah , project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: you 're right , sorry , yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay , so if we add approximately two to three euro per remote , now we 're up around about twelve , twelve and a half as to what uh the company had initially uh requested . um industrial designer: so that means we can put the uh the lcd in , yeah . marketing: display in . but as far as production um i 'm putting up a question because we 're talking about profit also , and in mine you 'll see uh the problem with uh our survey , the p the possibility that how many units can be sold , what percentage of the market , etcetera etcetera because that has to be taken in into consideration . project manager: marketing: uh this is just production cost , it is not uh advertising cost , it 's not transportation cost uh project manager: yes , so still uh we have twelve point five euro . marketing: and that will inflate quite a bit the cost of the uh the cost of the unit for the company . project manager: yes . yeah , but yes . yep . user interface: um-hmm . marketing: so to come up with what the company wants is a fifty million pound profit , we 're gon na have to go a long ways . project manager: yes . this we are talking about one unit , okay , so when it go into the quantity , okay , and the cost will come down . marketing: yes . industrial designer: although customisation , because this is being done , you know , the on on-order basis , it might be uh the the quantity wo n't m wo n't uh marketing: slightly . project manager: yeah . marketing: it 's gon na be very hard to reduce . user interface: yes . industrial designer: the circuit board will b you 're right , would be in producing quantity , but the cost of the case would uh be fixed at the uh you got some pretty cheap labour that can do this case for one euro . marketing: that 's not bad . industrial designer: that 's really that 's the cost of the material and lab wow , that 's really outstanding . project manager: yep . yeah . but anyhow , still we are under control , okay , so what uh i will do is i will try to negotiate with the vendors , okay , to get uh the production cost less , okay , so then we can save some money , okay , to put into th our marketing or uh you know the promotions , whatever , okay , so that uh i will look after . i will speak to the management and how to get uh you know some more uh cost down . marketing: if we can go to to my display . and we 'll come back to yours project manager: yes . marketing: just to give everybody an idea of the market . so now i 'm gon na scare everybody out of this project . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: if i 'm still here . project manager: you 're in four ? marketing: yep the four gives me it 's got ta be uh trendwatch . project manager: trendwatch . industrial designer: is this the same one you did before ? marketing: no . industrial designer: okay . marketing: it should n't be user interface: that 's no , i think it 's the same one . marketing: if it 's not it 's not the right one . no , no we g no , that 's the same one . you have to go back and find another one . whatever name it popped up under . project manager: user interface: functional . marketing: uh functional , try functional , it might not be it either , but we 'll see . industrial designer: user interface: it looks like it , there 's s yeah . marketing: yep , that 's it . so we 'll go screen by screen . project manager: okay . marketing: although since uh we need to have some type of idea on a market uh we had independent study that says it this this market has an availability to absorb eight mi eight million units per year . okay ? our internal company evaluation puts it between eight to nine million which is approximately the same as the independent study . project manager: yep . marketing: so if we continue , we 'll look at the findings . next screen . which means that uh if we have a target of two million would the company has to take twenty five percent of the market in the first year , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: which is actually a tremendous amount . industrial designer: yeah , no kidding . marketing: no kidding , yeah . industrial designer: mayb maybe they already expected something . marketing: so , if we put an inflated price of fifty euro at a production cost that can not exceed twenty-five euro , okay , we 're already in that that price , okay , project manager: yes . marketing: with transport , promotion , labour , because we hav gi included the promotion in the cost , transport for the material to the stores or whatever how however we 're gon na break this down between our our retailers . user interface: um-hmm . marketing: twenty-five percent of the market to get to two million units . at two million units , we have to have a profit of twenty-five euro per unit to get to the fifty million unit eu euro profit . project manager: mm-hmm . yep . marketing: okay ? so , obviously we w w i just did a run down the evaluation of the form , the fan uh the fancy stylishness of the of the unit , the ease of use , speech recognition , cost , we 've gone through these . now , the company must evaluate the feasibility of being able to take enough of the market to justify in production . or we project this over two years , but being that the market changes very very quickly , maybe there 's no more interest in buying this thing in eighteen months from now . project manager: yes . yep . of course . marketing: so , now we have to come up with a decision . user interface: mm . marketing: can the company sell two million units ? project manager: yep . marketing: can it sell it for fifty euros ? industrial designer: could could i go to findings ? project manager: yep . industrial designer: uh uh um i would uh like to explore the possibility of using um alternative um delivery and sales channel which would be um to use the internet for promotion and ordering project manager: yes . user interface: i was thinking the same thing , yeah . industrial designer: and then to drop-ship the p product to the customer 's residence . user interface: directly . industrial designer: that way you have no storage , you have no um you do have transportation , still have the labour cost , user interface: um-hmm . industrial designer: but you do n't have the transport to the uh point of sale . project manager: yes . industrial designer: the point of sale is online . user interface: yeah . project manager: to the agents . user interface: yeah . you can do a shipping centre somewhere , or strategically place shipping centres to minimise distance costs . industrial designer: right , like amazon . in fact , we should sell through amazon , project manager: yes . or ebay , or industrial designer: do n't you think ? or ebay , yeah . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: there 's an idea . marketing: project manager: yeah , that 's a good idea . industrial designer: going with um project manager: to impro more profit and uh marketing: s upscale technology . project manager: yeah , yes . industrial designer: ah , we we 're do you know , selling a unique product uh . marketing: well . user interface: that actually makes more sense if we 're gon na make it so highly customisable , 'cause on the web people can look at the different options they have , see maybe what other people have done , what the range of possibility as , industrial designer: mm . marketing: there are several companies that have gone that way . user interface: whereas if you 're in a store , you ca n't unless you 're a highly imaginative person , you may not really know what it is you want , industrial designer: mm . user interface: whereas on the web , if you have a bunch of pictures , it can sort of trigger ideas and industrial designer: mm-hmm . and you can even have an a movie that you can rotate the object and look at the di the only thing that you 're missing really is the weight . user interface: yeah . the weight and feel . marketing: weight , the feel of the product , but industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we 're getting used to that . it 's not quite like trying on a shoe , but people are getting used to buying things online that they ca n't touch before buying . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: there are several that have gone through with the watches , too . you can customise a watch , you can see how it is at the f at the end of the production , industrial designer: uh-huh . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: you can change it uh there 's a lot of online that 's that is doing this now . user interface: yes . marketing: and when you 're rotating , you 'll look behind and look this way uh it 's possible to do with this , maybe there 's a possibility of selling more than two million units in one year , which could you know , feasibili feasibility uh lower the price of the unit . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: we can . industrial designer: great . project manager: i do n't think that 's uh not possible , it 's uh okay then , l uh let 's wait for the production , okay , then uh you can evaluate the product , so how it looks like technically and uh how it look like uh the real . user interface: what turnaround time do we have ? project manager: t user interface: 'cause i mean production evaluation can be very very quick or very very long . project manager: oh but yes it 's it 's very quick , of course . it will uh come back in two weeks , okay , it will be ready in two weeks . industrial designer: works for me . project manager: for evaluation , okay . industrial designer: prototypes , you mean . project manager: yes , the prototype uh prototype product evaluation . industrial designer: in um we probably should do some market tests uh once we have the prototypes and do some orders and things like that and test-market it . project manager: yes . yes . yes . marketing: well , obviously . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm that 'd have to be thrown out on the market for people to get an idea , project manager: so you can take a minimum two weeks to a maximum four weeks . marketing: to see get get their user interface: mm-hmm . think minimum two weeks if we 're gon na develop prototypes and then try to take them to different places and see how people use project manager: yeah . user interface: it 's not a trivial task . project manager: yeah , because we we are not going to do it in uh our factory , okay , so we can give it a product evalua user interface: no no . we definitely should n't do it in our factory . project manager: yes , yes . industrial designer: project manager: so we 'll do it in the other place , and i do n't think it 's take more than four weeks time . or uh okay , so then the real production we will start once we product evaluation , okay , then uh it 's approve from uh the technical team and uh your team , okay , uh from the management , then we can launch in the market . hm ? industrial designer: any outstanding ? project manager: s any any other uh questions or uh comments to be discuss ? industrial designer: no , i 'm user interface: what ab industrial designer: go ahead . marketing: i think we pretty much covered everything . project manager: okay , so then uh industrial designer: did you have something ? user interface: well i was just wondering about if we 're gon na do a product evaluation then what about time for redesign if the users come back and tell us no this is bad , this is bad , we want this done differently . project manager: okay uh , let 's take like this . let 's proceed with this model , okay , for the for the marketing direction , okay . industrial designer: project manager: so no more changes will be made , okay , in this the basic design . okay ? so we will introduce m this model and uh let 's introduce in the market and let 's take the feedback from the customers , then we can uh go for the industrial designer: second generation . project manager: second generation . user interface: project manager: okay . there 's no end , there 's not limit . industrial designer: user interface: the problem is there might not be a second generation if the first generation flops for some silly reason that we have n't thought of . project manager: every every custom industrial designer: marketing: well , then it may not be . project manager: okay . well , every customer , okay , they have their own ideas , they have their own test , okay , so there 's no end , there 's no limit . marketing: like people do n't like wood . user interface: no , but there 's a difference between releasing a product that has been minimally tested and fine-tuned to suit a general range of requirements versus releasing a product that we think will work but we do n't really have anything to back it up . marketing: very specific . project manager: yeah , so that 's the reason you are here for uh the design , okay , i hope you made a good design . user interface: yes , but i 'm not everybody . industrial designer: user interface: i mean the whole point of user evaluation is to see what real people need . we have our own motivations in mind , we have our own ideas in mind , but that does n't mean that that 's what 's gon na sell . project manager: yeah , but uh see , we ought to take a few considerations , okay , one is the price consideration , one is future consideration , okay , like uh you can eat uh you can all eat more chi i can eat more chilli , okay , so i it 's a depends on the individual taste , you know , industrial designer: project manager: so we have we have to balance somewhere . user interface: yeah , of course . i 'm just trying to point out that i think that your evaluation and redesign turnaround time is too short well you have no redesign not you personally , but in the project we have no redesign time and project manager: yes . industrial designer: our project does n't um project manager: yeah . industrial designer: ed , d do you know what season of the year or time of the year is the most important for tv remote control sales ? marketing: hmm . industrial designer: would it be the christmas season by any chance ? project manager: the sports time . industrial designer: sports season . which sport season ? marketing: right before the eur the world cup . world soccer . world cup soccer , project manager: football . industrial designer: so so user interface: yeah . marketing: they need those things that they have their hands g occupied and they need to be able to talk to the con remote control . project manager: football . industrial designer: maybe what user interface: industrial designer: so i think what we need to do is perhaps to synchronise the final the the launch of a user-tested device with some special event . marketing: project manager: yes . yes . industrial designer: and and then um user interface: yeah , that 's a good idea . industrial designer: so that gives us a little more time perhaps then we anticipated , because i do n't know when the world cup is , but i 'm sure there 's gon na be one . marketing: or any major sports . industrial designer: or another m major sports event . probably not the um the football games coming up the end of january . i think that might be a little too aggressive um , project manager: yes . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but , so , i 'm just ig uh pointing out a uh a strategy to uh do some additional user testing project manager: research . industrial designer: pri and then to launch um at a a major sports event user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yep . industrial designer: or uh perhaps to uh also user interface: that 's actually good place to advertise it too . industrial designer: and to work with motion pictures . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: there might be some motion pictures that are coming out um that are coming out on d_v_d_ that uh they need to have a m special remote control to work with it , so we could maybe work out a campaign with uh with sony pictures for example . project manager: yes . industrial designer: maybe some management has got uh relationships there we can leverage . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yes , the that of course uh i will convince the management to do that , okay . industrial designer: that 's great . user interface: it 's just something to to keep in mind , 'cause it 's really really important . project manager: sure , sure , yes . user interface: a lot of products have gone out there without being properly user-tested and completely flopped , when in fact it gets re-released a few years down the line with proper testing and it takes off like crazy . industrial designer: disposable diapers is an example of that in fact . user interface: really ? industrial designer: yes , it is one of the first consumer products that was launched about thirty years that was a disposable consumer product , user interface: that i did n't know . industrial designer: and uh people the market had n't really gotten on to the concept that you could use something and then throw it away , 'cause it was n't uh user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but then when they re-launched them thirty years later , they were virtually the same design , project manager: . industrial designer: but people had gotten the throw-away , you know , paper cups and napki y all kinds of things that they had n't um so , you 're right , timing is very important , user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but i think we 've got a good product . project manager: that 's the reason ed is here . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think he can promote the the brand value and the product value . industrial designer: that 's right . it 's gon na be very important to the company . project manager: yes . we are behind the scene and he is the front screen , so . user interface: yep . project manager: he 's on the big screen . marketing: yeah , i 'm the one who takes the heat . user interface: exactly . industrial designer: good luck , ed . marketing: if it 's a flop , it 's the marketer . industrial designer: you look very relaxed , considering h you know , the uh the weight on your shoulders , yeah . marketing: yes . yes . stress . user interface: project manager: okay , so then uh let 's come to the closing and uh are the costs within the budget marketing: celebration . project manager: and uh is the product evaluated , okay , so that will uh come soon . okay for uh but our time being , so thanks for all your efforts and great work and uh great design and uh let 's leave it to the ed for later for once production is over and the meantime let 's celebrate . so let 's meet up uh this evening to hang up for some party . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: sounds good . project manager: 's good . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: okay . marketing: very good . industrial designer: nice working with you . marketing: thank you very much . project manager: thank you . thank you again for all . user interface: thanks industrial designer: user interface: project manager: and see you in the evening for drinks . marketing: bye-bye . yep , okay , see you later on . user interface: bye .

industrial designer proposed to conduct a product evaluation by putting the prototype on the market to get feedback from the users . user interface pointed out that there should be time for redesign while project manager insisted that no more change would be made on the original design and improvements made according to evaluation results would be on the second generation . what 's more , industrial designer came up with a strategy to do additional user research by choosing the sports season and working with motion pictures .

why did user interface disagree when talking about the redesign after product evaluation ? </s> project manager: welcome back . industrial designer: i 'm sorry to be late . project manager: welcome back everybody . user interface: yeah . thanks . project manager: so this meeting agenda will be the detailed design meeting . and uh opening and uh pms of the meet minutes , uh prototype presentation from uh christine and uh agnes . industrial designer: agnes , yes . project manager: yes and uh evaluation criteria . the finance , it 's uh from my side , from the management , and uh production evaluation . then uh closing . so we have forty minutes to discuss and uh finalise and close the product and project and to move further , okay , so okay , let 's talk about uh maybe first uh for the prototype . user interface: mm , okay . project manager: so i handle to user interface: i 've done a presentation , but it pretty much covers work that we 've both done , so if i 'm missing anything , christine can just correct me . project manager: so shall i go to sorry . industrial designer: uh thank you , so you did a powerpoint presentation , good for you . project manager: yep . s okay , let 's go to ami . user interface: it 's not the biggest powerpoint presentation in the world , but industrial designer: marketing: project manager: so in two or three or industrial designer: user interface: three . um . no it 's marketing: probably . technical pa i would think . user interface: think it 's the last one . no , then this is the la yeah , that one , final design . marketing: ha . project manager: yeah . user interface: it is named appropriately , you just could n't see the name . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: um okay , can i have the mouse ? project manager: yes . user interface: thanks . alright , so from when we were discussing specifying the case in the last meeting , we decided that we wanted an ergonomic shape , the material that we chose was wood , and uh the colour would be customisable , 'cause you can stain the wood whatever colour . um , so in terms of function , you have to be able to turn the tv on and off , volume and channel control , menu control , voice recognition control , and we 've incorporated the lcd screen on the flip panel as part of the design , if we figure out it 's too expensive , well then you just take it off . um , so to unveil our lovely product . this is our remote control , with the flip panel as you can see . marketing: user interface: so if you lift up the panel , you can see the lovely yellow lcd display . um , this is actually hard to do . the yellow button you have is the on off button , so it 's really big , hard to miss . you have the the red um triangles are the toggles for changing the volume . so up volume up , down volume down . the green are the channel changing . s and it 's one of those very light , very touchable displays . and then you have the numeric pad in the dark blue at the bottom , and on the right-hand side you have the access to the menu on the tv , and on the left-hand side you have the the the ability to turn off the voice recognition . so this is pretty much what we had on the white board the last time . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so . industrial designer: um and uh i could user interface: oh yes . industrial designer: yeah the d user interface: additional feature on the back is that you can have your own customised backing and i suppose you could do the same thing on the flip case on the front . so that you can really make this a highly highly customisable remote control . industrial designer: we have n't um uh specified where the speaker or the microphone will be placed . that depends on the uh s design of the circuit board inside and uh what room is left um user interface: yeah . project manager: i think the microphone is on on the top , uh on the middle , the under the flip . industrial designer: yes , okay . uh-huh . project manager: so that will be the safe , so p any the chip it 's not on the chip because you need to have microphone to industrial designer: no , i mean it depends on the design of the circuit board . project manager: yes . user interface: but it should n't be under the flip either , because you can have the remote control closed , but you still might want to activate it by voice . project manager: uh it 's it 's yeah , but uh uh my opinion i think it 's better under the flip because whenever you want to uh the talk , okay , so then you can speak then you can close it . but if you put it on the on the flip , okay , then uh technical i do n't think it 's uh feasible , 'cause most of the time you speak then it will be recognised . user interface: but if you 've already got the remote control in your hand you need to open the flip to use the voice , why use the voice , why not just use your hand ? i mean the whole point of the voice is that if the remote control is sitting there and i 'm too lazy to reach over and pick it up , i can just use my voice . industrial designer: maybe i 've got my hand in the popcorn bowl and i 'm holding my cup of coca-cola in the other hand . user interface: yeah . and you do n't wan na let go of either one . marketing: i do n't wan na say . louder . yeah . user interface: i mean it does n't have to be on the flip , it can be on the side somewhere . marketing: can also be on the side . project manager: yeah , the sides maybe is good . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so , i mean i can pass this around if anyone wants to project manager: yes . so it 's maybe good idea . industrial designer: yeah , y better you pass it around with a napkin . user interface: marketing: no , because y you can easily put a microphone on the side that would have no problem would have n't been not be damaged or anything , and it 'd be accessible all the time to voice . user interface: yeah . project manager: yes . yeah . user interface: yeah , exactly . marketing: yeah . project manager: so it 's maybe good idea . s s industrial designer: it 's um it 's um marketing: compliments to the artist . industrial designer: you need to work on the weight a little bit . user interface: yes . marketing: uh . project manager: okay . s i 'm fine , i 'm satisfi user interface: and maybe the shape of the buttons , project manager: i 'm satisfied . user interface: the little egg shapes are n't the most economical , but industrial designer: we 're glad you 're satisfied . project manager: of course it 's it 's it 's looks more heo heavy , but i think when it 's completely maybe it 's a less weight . user interface: yeah . i mean this is plasticene . project manager: yes . user interface: there 's only so much you can do . we could have possibly made it a lot thinner as well . but and part of the thing is m a lot of people say that they do n't like something that 's too light , because they do n't feel like they have enough control over it . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so i mean maybe this is excessively heavy , but i think it needs to have some weight , project manager: yep . user interface: it needs to feel like you 're still holding something . so that 's pretty much it for our presentation actually . project manager: that 's your uh prototype model ? user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , that 's good , thank you very much . marketing: project manager: so any comments or uh marketing: well , the prototype is is very well within the design and ideas that we 've we 've talked about on the previous meetings . project manager: okay . marketing: now it goes into this next phase as the financial uh marketing uh project manager: yes , that uh so i 'll come back to the so evaluation criteria , i think uh that will be good , so then let 's come to the finance uh , i have some uh calculations which i made uh as for uh the budget . so here you can uh look like uh the energy and uh dynamo and uh kinetic and solar cells . uh it 's optional , somewhat optional and ed wants the chip on print , that 's what uh we were talking about that . industrial designer: project manager: so then we have sample sensor and sample speaker , then uh we have the wood material , then special colour and push button . so it 's uh actually , our budget was uh twelve point five euro , but uh it 's coming to nine point nine five euro , so we are under uh below the budget , okay , so still we are saving some money . i think it 's a good figure . industrial designer: yes , great i i 'm surprised . marketing: industrial designer: congratulations . project manager: than thank you . marketing: well we have n't come to mine yet , so industrial designer: oh , okay user interface: industrial designer: . it 's gon na cost a long way to c you know , cost a lot of money to market it , is it ? marketing: we 're gon na have a bit of difference of opinion , yes . project manager: so maybe it 's for some money we can utilise for our uh marketing , for the sales , okay , and uh marketing: well , it just depends on if we 're gon na add a o on this pr provisionary cost analysis , we do not have a l_c_ display . l_c_ display is gon na be very expensive , user interface: no we do , but it 's not filled in . marketing: it 's gon na be project manager: it 's not . industrial designer: thirty . marketing: it 's not it does n't say . user interface: it 's number thirty . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: we do n't have the price up there , user interface: oh , yeah , yeah , project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: you 're right , sorry , yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay , so if we add approximately two to three euro per remote , now we 're up around about twelve , twelve and a half as to what uh the company had initially uh requested . um industrial designer: so that means we can put the uh the lcd in , yeah . marketing: display in . but as far as production um i 'm putting up a question because we 're talking about profit also , and in mine you 'll see uh the problem with uh our survey , the p the possibility that how many units can be sold , what percentage of the market , etcetera etcetera because that has to be taken in into consideration . project manager: marketing: uh this is just production cost , it is not uh advertising cost , it 's not transportation cost uh project manager: yes , so still uh we have twelve point five euro . marketing: and that will inflate quite a bit the cost of the uh the cost of the unit for the company . project manager: yes . yeah , but yes . yep . user interface: um-hmm . marketing: so to come up with what the company wants is a fifty million pound profit , we 're gon na have to go a long ways . project manager: yes . this we are talking about one unit , okay , so when it go into the quantity , okay , and the cost will come down . marketing: yes . industrial designer: although customisation , because this is being done , you know , the on on-order basis , it might be uh the the quantity wo n't m wo n't uh marketing: slightly . project manager: yeah . marketing: it 's gon na be very hard to reduce . user interface: yes . industrial designer: the circuit board will b you 're right , would be in producing quantity , but the cost of the case would uh be fixed at the uh you got some pretty cheap labour that can do this case for one euro . marketing: that 's not bad . industrial designer: that 's really that 's the cost of the material and lab wow , that 's really outstanding . project manager: yep . yeah . but anyhow , still we are under control , okay , so what uh i will do is i will try to negotiate with the vendors , okay , to get uh the production cost less , okay , so then we can save some money , okay , to put into th our marketing or uh you know the promotions , whatever , okay , so that uh i will look after . i will speak to the management and how to get uh you know some more uh cost down . marketing: if we can go to to my display . and we 'll come back to yours project manager: yes . marketing: just to give everybody an idea of the market . so now i 'm gon na scare everybody out of this project . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: if i 'm still here . project manager: you 're in four ? marketing: yep the four gives me it 's got ta be uh trendwatch . project manager: trendwatch . industrial designer: is this the same one you did before ? marketing: no . industrial designer: okay . marketing: it should n't be user interface: that 's no , i think it 's the same one . marketing: if it 's not it 's not the right one . no , no we g no , that 's the same one . you have to go back and find another one . whatever name it popped up under . project manager: user interface: functional . marketing: uh functional , try functional , it might not be it either , but we 'll see . industrial designer: user interface: it looks like it , there 's s yeah . marketing: yep , that 's it . so we 'll go screen by screen . project manager: okay . marketing: although since uh we need to have some type of idea on a market uh we had independent study that says it this this market has an availability to absorb eight mi eight million units per year . okay ? our internal company evaluation puts it between eight to nine million which is approximately the same as the independent study . project manager: yep . marketing: so if we continue , we 'll look at the findings . next screen . which means that uh if we have a target of two million would the company has to take twenty five percent of the market in the first year , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: which is actually a tremendous amount . industrial designer: yeah , no kidding . marketing: no kidding , yeah . industrial designer: mayb maybe they already expected something . marketing: so , if we put an inflated price of fifty euro at a production cost that can not exceed twenty-five euro , okay , we 're already in that that price , okay , project manager: yes . marketing: with transport , promotion , labour , because we hav gi included the promotion in the cost , transport for the material to the stores or whatever how however we 're gon na break this down between our our retailers . user interface: um-hmm . marketing: twenty-five percent of the market to get to two million units . at two million units , we have to have a profit of twenty-five euro per unit to get to the fifty million unit eu euro profit . project manager: mm-hmm . yep . marketing: okay ? so , obviously we w w i just did a run down the evaluation of the form , the fan uh the fancy stylishness of the of the unit , the ease of use , speech recognition , cost , we 've gone through these . now , the company must evaluate the feasibility of being able to take enough of the market to justify in production . or we project this over two years , but being that the market changes very very quickly , maybe there 's no more interest in buying this thing in eighteen months from now . project manager: yes . yep . of course . marketing: so , now we have to come up with a decision . user interface: mm . marketing: can the company sell two million units ? project manager: yep . marketing: can it sell it for fifty euros ? industrial designer: could could i go to findings ? project manager: yep . industrial designer: uh uh um i would uh like to explore the possibility of using um alternative um delivery and sales channel which would be um to use the internet for promotion and ordering project manager: yes . user interface: i was thinking the same thing , yeah . industrial designer: and then to drop-ship the p product to the customer 's residence . user interface: directly . industrial designer: that way you have no storage , you have no um you do have transportation , still have the labour cost , user interface: um-hmm . industrial designer: but you do n't have the transport to the uh point of sale . project manager: yes . industrial designer: the point of sale is online . user interface: yeah . project manager: to the agents . user interface: yeah . you can do a shipping centre somewhere , or strategically place shipping centres to minimise distance costs . industrial designer: right , like amazon . in fact , we should sell through amazon , project manager: yes . or ebay , or industrial designer: do n't you think ? or ebay , yeah . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: there 's an idea . marketing: project manager: yeah , that 's a good idea . industrial designer: going with um project manager: to impro more profit and uh marketing: s upscale technology . project manager: yeah , yes . industrial designer: ah , we we 're do you know , selling a unique product uh . marketing: well . user interface: that actually makes more sense if we 're gon na make it so highly customisable , 'cause on the web people can look at the different options they have , see maybe what other people have done , what the range of possibility as , industrial designer: mm . marketing: there are several companies that have gone that way . user interface: whereas if you 're in a store , you ca n't unless you 're a highly imaginative person , you may not really know what it is you want , industrial designer: mm . user interface: whereas on the web , if you have a bunch of pictures , it can sort of trigger ideas and industrial designer: mm-hmm . and you can even have an a movie that you can rotate the object and look at the di the only thing that you 're missing really is the weight . user interface: yeah . the weight and feel . marketing: weight , the feel of the product , but industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we 're getting used to that . it 's not quite like trying on a shoe , but people are getting used to buying things online that they ca n't touch before buying . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: there are several that have gone through with the watches , too . you can customise a watch , you can see how it is at the f at the end of the production , industrial designer: uh-huh . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: you can change it uh there 's a lot of online that 's that is doing this now . user interface: yes . marketing: and when you 're rotating , you 'll look behind and look this way uh it 's possible to do with this , maybe there 's a possibility of selling more than two million units in one year , which could you know , feasibili feasibility uh lower the price of the unit . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: we can . industrial designer: great . project manager: i do n't think that 's uh not possible , it 's uh okay then , l uh let 's wait for the production , okay , then uh you can evaluate the product , so how it looks like technically and uh how it look like uh the real . user interface: what turnaround time do we have ? project manager: t user interface: 'cause i mean production evaluation can be very very quick or very very long . project manager: oh but yes it 's it 's very quick , of course . it will uh come back in two weeks , okay , it will be ready in two weeks . industrial designer: works for me . project manager: for evaluation , okay . industrial designer: prototypes , you mean . project manager: yes , the prototype uh prototype product evaluation . industrial designer: in um we probably should do some market tests uh once we have the prototypes and do some orders and things like that and test-market it . project manager: yes . yes . yes . marketing: well , obviously . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm that 'd have to be thrown out on the market for people to get an idea , project manager: so you can take a minimum two weeks to a maximum four weeks . marketing: to see get get their user interface: mm-hmm . think minimum two weeks if we 're gon na develop prototypes and then try to take them to different places and see how people use project manager: yeah . user interface: it 's not a trivial task . project manager: yeah , because we we are not going to do it in uh our factory , okay , so we can give it a product evalua user interface: no no . we definitely should n't do it in our factory . project manager: yes , yes . industrial designer: project manager: so we 'll do it in the other place , and i do n't think it 's take more than four weeks time . or uh okay , so then the real production we will start once we product evaluation , okay , then uh it 's approve from uh the technical team and uh your team , okay , uh from the management , then we can launch in the market . hm ? industrial designer: any outstanding ? project manager: s any any other uh questions or uh comments to be discuss ? industrial designer: no , i 'm user interface: what ab industrial designer: go ahead . marketing: i think we pretty much covered everything . project manager: okay , so then uh industrial designer: did you have something ? user interface: well i was just wondering about if we 're gon na do a product evaluation then what about time for redesign if the users come back and tell us no this is bad , this is bad , we want this done differently . project manager: okay uh , let 's take like this . let 's proceed with this model , okay , for the for the marketing direction , okay . industrial designer: project manager: so no more changes will be made , okay , in this the basic design . okay ? so we will introduce m this model and uh let 's introduce in the market and let 's take the feedback from the customers , then we can uh go for the industrial designer: second generation . project manager: second generation . user interface: project manager: okay . there 's no end , there 's not limit . industrial designer: user interface: the problem is there might not be a second generation if the first generation flops for some silly reason that we have n't thought of . project manager: every every custom industrial designer: marketing: well , then it may not be . project manager: okay . well , every customer , okay , they have their own ideas , they have their own test , okay , so there 's no end , there 's no limit . marketing: like people do n't like wood . user interface: no , but there 's a difference between releasing a product that has been minimally tested and fine-tuned to suit a general range of requirements versus releasing a product that we think will work but we do n't really have anything to back it up . marketing: very specific . project manager: yeah , so that 's the reason you are here for uh the design , okay , i hope you made a good design . user interface: yes , but i 'm not everybody . industrial designer: user interface: i mean the whole point of user evaluation is to see what real people need . we have our own motivations in mind , we have our own ideas in mind , but that does n't mean that that 's what 's gon na sell . project manager: yeah , but uh see , we ought to take a few considerations , okay , one is the price consideration , one is future consideration , okay , like uh you can eat uh you can all eat more chi i can eat more chilli , okay , so i it 's a depends on the individual taste , you know , industrial designer: project manager: so we have we have to balance somewhere . user interface: yeah , of course . i 'm just trying to point out that i think that your evaluation and redesign turnaround time is too short well you have no redesign not you personally , but in the project we have no redesign time and project manager: yes . industrial designer: our project does n't um project manager: yeah . industrial designer: ed , d do you know what season of the year or time of the year is the most important for tv remote control sales ? marketing: hmm . industrial designer: would it be the christmas season by any chance ? project manager: the sports time . industrial designer: sports season . which sport season ? marketing: right before the eur the world cup . world soccer . world cup soccer , project manager: football . industrial designer: so so user interface: yeah . marketing: they need those things that they have their hands g occupied and they need to be able to talk to the con remote control . project manager: football . industrial designer: maybe what user interface: industrial designer: so i think what we need to do is perhaps to synchronise the final the the launch of a user-tested device with some special event . marketing: project manager: yes . yes . industrial designer: and and then um user interface: yeah , that 's a good idea . industrial designer: so that gives us a little more time perhaps then we anticipated , because i do n't know when the world cup is , but i 'm sure there 's gon na be one . marketing: or any major sports . industrial designer: or another m major sports event . probably not the um the football games coming up the end of january . i think that might be a little too aggressive um , project manager: yes . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but , so , i 'm just ig uh pointing out a uh a strategy to uh do some additional user testing project manager: research . industrial designer: pri and then to launch um at a a major sports event user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yep . industrial designer: or uh perhaps to uh also user interface: that 's actually good place to advertise it too . industrial designer: and to work with motion pictures . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: there might be some motion pictures that are coming out um that are coming out on d_v_d_ that uh they need to have a m special remote control to work with it , so we could maybe work out a campaign with uh with sony pictures for example . project manager: yes . industrial designer: maybe some management has got uh relationships there we can leverage . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yes , the that of course uh i will convince the management to do that , okay . industrial designer: that 's great . user interface: it 's just something to to keep in mind , 'cause it 's really really important . project manager: sure , sure , yes . user interface: a lot of products have gone out there without being properly user-tested and completely flopped , when in fact it gets re-released a few years down the line with proper testing and it takes off like crazy . industrial designer: disposable diapers is an example of that in fact . user interface: really ? industrial designer: yes , it is one of the first consumer products that was launched about thirty years that was a disposable consumer product , user interface: that i did n't know . industrial designer: and uh people the market had n't really gotten on to the concept that you could use something and then throw it away , 'cause it was n't uh user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but then when they re-launched them thirty years later , they were virtually the same design , project manager: . industrial designer: but people had gotten the throw-away , you know , paper cups and napki y all kinds of things that they had n't um so , you 're right , timing is very important , user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but i think we 've got a good product . project manager: that 's the reason ed is here . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think he can promote the the brand value and the product value . industrial designer: that 's right . it 's gon na be very important to the company . project manager: yes . we are behind the scene and he is the front screen , so . user interface: yep . project manager: he 's on the big screen . marketing: yeah , i 'm the one who takes the heat . user interface: exactly . industrial designer: good luck , ed . marketing: if it 's a flop , it 's the marketer . industrial designer: you look very relaxed , considering h you know , the uh the weight on your shoulders , yeah . marketing: yes . yes . stress . user interface: project manager: okay , so then uh let 's come to the closing and uh are the costs within the budget marketing: celebration . project manager: and uh is the product evaluated , okay , so that will uh come soon . okay for uh but our time being , so thanks for all your efforts and great work and uh great design and uh let 's leave it to the ed for later for once production is over and the meantime let 's celebrate . so let 's meet up uh this evening to hang up for some party . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: sounds good . project manager: 's good . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: okay . marketing: very good . industrial designer: nice working with you . marketing: thank you very much . project manager: thank you . thank you again for all . user interface: thanks industrial designer: user interface: project manager: and see you in the evening for drinks . marketing: bye-bye . yep , okay , see you later on . user interface: bye .

because user interface thought there should be a turnaround time between product evaluation and its formal release . user interface believed that many products had been released to the market without being properly user-tested and did n't receive positive results , so the remote control should be minimally tested before redesigned and fine-tuned to suit a general range of requirements according to the feedback from product evaluation .

what strategy did the group come up with for product evaluation ? </s> project manager: welcome back . industrial designer: i 'm sorry to be late . project manager: welcome back everybody . user interface: yeah . thanks . project manager: so this meeting agenda will be the detailed design meeting . and uh opening and uh pms of the meet minutes , uh prototype presentation from uh christine and uh agnes . industrial designer: agnes , yes . project manager: yes and uh evaluation criteria . the finance , it 's uh from my side , from the management , and uh production evaluation . then uh closing . so we have forty minutes to discuss and uh finalise and close the product and project and to move further , okay , so okay , let 's talk about uh maybe first uh for the prototype . user interface: mm , okay . project manager: so i handle to user interface: i 've done a presentation , but it pretty much covers work that we 've both done , so if i 'm missing anything , christine can just correct me . project manager: so shall i go to sorry . industrial designer: uh thank you , so you did a powerpoint presentation , good for you . project manager: yep . s okay , let 's go to ami . user interface: it 's not the biggest powerpoint presentation in the world , but industrial designer: marketing: project manager: so in two or three or industrial designer: user interface: three . um . no it 's marketing: probably . technical pa i would think . user interface: think it 's the last one . no , then this is the la yeah , that one , final design . marketing: ha . project manager: yeah . user interface: it is named appropriately , you just could n't see the name . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: um okay , can i have the mouse ? project manager: yes . user interface: thanks . alright , so from when we were discussing specifying the case in the last meeting , we decided that we wanted an ergonomic shape , the material that we chose was wood , and uh the colour would be customisable , 'cause you can stain the wood whatever colour . um , so in terms of function , you have to be able to turn the tv on and off , volume and channel control , menu control , voice recognition control , and we 've incorporated the lcd screen on the flip panel as part of the design , if we figure out it 's too expensive , well then you just take it off . um , so to unveil our lovely product . this is our remote control , with the flip panel as you can see . marketing: user interface: so if you lift up the panel , you can see the lovely yellow lcd display . um , this is actually hard to do . the yellow button you have is the on off button , so it 's really big , hard to miss . you have the the red um triangles are the toggles for changing the volume . so up volume up , down volume down . the green are the channel changing . s and it 's one of those very light , very touchable displays . and then you have the numeric pad in the dark blue at the bottom , and on the right-hand side you have the access to the menu on the tv , and on the left-hand side you have the the the ability to turn off the voice recognition . so this is pretty much what we had on the white board the last time . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so . industrial designer: um and uh i could user interface: oh yes . industrial designer: yeah the d user interface: additional feature on the back is that you can have your own customised backing and i suppose you could do the same thing on the flip case on the front . so that you can really make this a highly highly customisable remote control . industrial designer: we have n't um uh specified where the speaker or the microphone will be placed . that depends on the uh s design of the circuit board inside and uh what room is left um user interface: yeah . project manager: i think the microphone is on on the top , uh on the middle , the under the flip . industrial designer: yes , okay . uh-huh . project manager: so that will be the safe , so p any the chip it 's not on the chip because you need to have microphone to industrial designer: no , i mean it depends on the design of the circuit board . project manager: yes . user interface: but it should n't be under the flip either , because you can have the remote control closed , but you still might want to activate it by voice . project manager: uh it 's it 's yeah , but uh uh my opinion i think it 's better under the flip because whenever you want to uh the talk , okay , so then you can speak then you can close it . but if you put it on the on the flip , okay , then uh technical i do n't think it 's uh feasible , 'cause most of the time you speak then it will be recognised . user interface: but if you 've already got the remote control in your hand you need to open the flip to use the voice , why use the voice , why not just use your hand ? i mean the whole point of the voice is that if the remote control is sitting there and i 'm too lazy to reach over and pick it up , i can just use my voice . industrial designer: maybe i 've got my hand in the popcorn bowl and i 'm holding my cup of coca-cola in the other hand . user interface: yeah . and you do n't wan na let go of either one . marketing: i do n't wan na say . louder . yeah . user interface: i mean it does n't have to be on the flip , it can be on the side somewhere . marketing: can also be on the side . project manager: yeah , the sides maybe is good . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so , i mean i can pass this around if anyone wants to project manager: yes . so it 's maybe good idea . industrial designer: yeah , y better you pass it around with a napkin . user interface: marketing: no , because y you can easily put a microphone on the side that would have no problem would have n't been not be damaged or anything , and it 'd be accessible all the time to voice . user interface: yeah . project manager: yes . yeah . user interface: yeah , exactly . marketing: yeah . project manager: so it 's maybe good idea . s s industrial designer: it 's um it 's um marketing: compliments to the artist . industrial designer: you need to work on the weight a little bit . user interface: yes . marketing: uh . project manager: okay . s i 'm fine , i 'm satisfi user interface: and maybe the shape of the buttons , project manager: i 'm satisfied . user interface: the little egg shapes are n't the most economical , but industrial designer: we 're glad you 're satisfied . project manager: of course it 's it 's it 's looks more heo heavy , but i think when it 's completely maybe it 's a less weight . user interface: yeah . i mean this is plasticene . project manager: yes . user interface: there 's only so much you can do . we could have possibly made it a lot thinner as well . but and part of the thing is m a lot of people say that they do n't like something that 's too light , because they do n't feel like they have enough control over it . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so i mean maybe this is excessively heavy , but i think it needs to have some weight , project manager: yep . user interface: it needs to feel like you 're still holding something . so that 's pretty much it for our presentation actually . project manager: that 's your uh prototype model ? user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , that 's good , thank you very much . marketing: project manager: so any comments or uh marketing: well , the prototype is is very well within the design and ideas that we 've we 've talked about on the previous meetings . project manager: okay . marketing: now it goes into this next phase as the financial uh marketing uh project manager: yes , that uh so i 'll come back to the so evaluation criteria , i think uh that will be good , so then let 's come to the finance uh , i have some uh calculations which i made uh as for uh the budget . so here you can uh look like uh the energy and uh dynamo and uh kinetic and solar cells . uh it 's optional , somewhat optional and ed wants the chip on print , that 's what uh we were talking about that . industrial designer: project manager: so then we have sample sensor and sample speaker , then uh we have the wood material , then special colour and push button . so it 's uh actually , our budget was uh twelve point five euro , but uh it 's coming to nine point nine five euro , so we are under uh below the budget , okay , so still we are saving some money . i think it 's a good figure . industrial designer: yes , great i i 'm surprised . marketing: industrial designer: congratulations . project manager: than thank you . marketing: well we have n't come to mine yet , so industrial designer: oh , okay user interface: industrial designer: . it 's gon na cost a long way to c you know , cost a lot of money to market it , is it ? marketing: we 're gon na have a bit of difference of opinion , yes . project manager: so maybe it 's for some money we can utilise for our uh marketing , for the sales , okay , and uh marketing: well , it just depends on if we 're gon na add a o on this pr provisionary cost analysis , we do not have a l_c_ display . l_c_ display is gon na be very expensive , user interface: no we do , but it 's not filled in . marketing: it 's gon na be project manager: it 's not . industrial designer: thirty . marketing: it 's not it does n't say . user interface: it 's number thirty . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: we do n't have the price up there , user interface: oh , yeah , yeah , project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: you 're right , sorry , yes . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay , so if we add approximately two to three euro per remote , now we 're up around about twelve , twelve and a half as to what uh the company had initially uh requested . um industrial designer: so that means we can put the uh the lcd in , yeah . marketing: display in . but as far as production um i 'm putting up a question because we 're talking about profit also , and in mine you 'll see uh the problem with uh our survey , the p the possibility that how many units can be sold , what percentage of the market , etcetera etcetera because that has to be taken in into consideration . project manager: marketing: uh this is just production cost , it is not uh advertising cost , it 's not transportation cost uh project manager: yes , so still uh we have twelve point five euro . marketing: and that will inflate quite a bit the cost of the uh the cost of the unit for the company . project manager: yes . yeah , but yes . yep . user interface: um-hmm . marketing: so to come up with what the company wants is a fifty million pound profit , we 're gon na have to go a long ways . project manager: yes . this we are talking about one unit , okay , so when it go into the quantity , okay , and the cost will come down . marketing: yes . industrial designer: although customisation , because this is being done , you know , the on on-order basis , it might be uh the the quantity wo n't m wo n't uh marketing: slightly . project manager: yeah . marketing: it 's gon na be very hard to reduce . user interface: yes . industrial designer: the circuit board will b you 're right , would be in producing quantity , but the cost of the case would uh be fixed at the uh you got some pretty cheap labour that can do this case for one euro . marketing: that 's not bad . industrial designer: that 's really that 's the cost of the material and lab wow , that 's really outstanding . project manager: yep . yeah . but anyhow , still we are under control , okay , so what uh i will do is i will try to negotiate with the vendors , okay , to get uh the production cost less , okay , so then we can save some money , okay , to put into th our marketing or uh you know the promotions , whatever , okay , so that uh i will look after . i will speak to the management and how to get uh you know some more uh cost down . marketing: if we can go to to my display . and we 'll come back to yours project manager: yes . marketing: just to give everybody an idea of the market . so now i 'm gon na scare everybody out of this project . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: if i 'm still here . project manager: you 're in four ? marketing: yep the four gives me it 's got ta be uh trendwatch . project manager: trendwatch . industrial designer: is this the same one you did before ? marketing: no . industrial designer: okay . marketing: it should n't be user interface: that 's no , i think it 's the same one . marketing: if it 's not it 's not the right one . no , no we g no , that 's the same one . you have to go back and find another one . whatever name it popped up under . project manager: user interface: functional . marketing: uh functional , try functional , it might not be it either , but we 'll see . industrial designer: user interface: it looks like it , there 's s yeah . marketing: yep , that 's it . so we 'll go screen by screen . project manager: okay . marketing: although since uh we need to have some type of idea on a market uh we had independent study that says it this this market has an availability to absorb eight mi eight million units per year . okay ? our internal company evaluation puts it between eight to nine million which is approximately the same as the independent study . project manager: yep . marketing: so if we continue , we 'll look at the findings . next screen . which means that uh if we have a target of two million would the company has to take twenty five percent of the market in the first year , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: which is actually a tremendous amount . industrial designer: yeah , no kidding . marketing: no kidding , yeah . industrial designer: mayb maybe they already expected something . marketing: so , if we put an inflated price of fifty euro at a production cost that can not exceed twenty-five euro , okay , we 're already in that that price , okay , project manager: yes . marketing: with transport , promotion , labour , because we hav gi included the promotion in the cost , transport for the material to the stores or whatever how however we 're gon na break this down between our our retailers . user interface: um-hmm . marketing: twenty-five percent of the market to get to two million units . at two million units , we have to have a profit of twenty-five euro per unit to get to the fifty million unit eu euro profit . project manager: mm-hmm . yep . marketing: okay ? so , obviously we w w i just did a run down the evaluation of the form , the fan uh the fancy stylishness of the of the unit , the ease of use , speech recognition , cost , we 've gone through these . now , the company must evaluate the feasibility of being able to take enough of the market to justify in production . or we project this over two years , but being that the market changes very very quickly , maybe there 's no more interest in buying this thing in eighteen months from now . project manager: yes . yep . of course . marketing: so , now we have to come up with a decision . user interface: mm . marketing: can the company sell two million units ? project manager: yep . marketing: can it sell it for fifty euros ? industrial designer: could could i go to findings ? project manager: yep . industrial designer: uh uh um i would uh like to explore the possibility of using um alternative um delivery and sales channel which would be um to use the internet for promotion and ordering project manager: yes . user interface: i was thinking the same thing , yeah . industrial designer: and then to drop-ship the p product to the customer 's residence . user interface: directly . industrial designer: that way you have no storage , you have no um you do have transportation , still have the labour cost , user interface: um-hmm . industrial designer: but you do n't have the transport to the uh point of sale . project manager: yes . industrial designer: the point of sale is online . user interface: yeah . project manager: to the agents . user interface: yeah . you can do a shipping centre somewhere , or strategically place shipping centres to minimise distance costs . industrial designer: right , like amazon . in fact , we should sell through amazon , project manager: yes . or ebay , or industrial designer: do n't you think ? or ebay , yeah . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: there 's an idea . marketing: project manager: yeah , that 's a good idea . industrial designer: going with um project manager: to impro more profit and uh marketing: s upscale technology . project manager: yeah , yes . industrial designer: ah , we we 're do you know , selling a unique product uh . marketing: well . user interface: that actually makes more sense if we 're gon na make it so highly customisable , 'cause on the web people can look at the different options they have , see maybe what other people have done , what the range of possibility as , industrial designer: mm . marketing: there are several companies that have gone that way . user interface: whereas if you 're in a store , you ca n't unless you 're a highly imaginative person , you may not really know what it is you want , industrial designer: mm . user interface: whereas on the web , if you have a bunch of pictures , it can sort of trigger ideas and industrial designer: mm-hmm . and you can even have an a movie that you can rotate the object and look at the di the only thing that you 're missing really is the weight . user interface: yeah . the weight and feel . marketing: weight , the feel of the product , but industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: we 're getting used to that . it 's not quite like trying on a shoe , but people are getting used to buying things online that they ca n't touch before buying . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: there are several that have gone through with the watches , too . you can customise a watch , you can see how it is at the f at the end of the production , industrial designer: uh-huh . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: you can change it uh there 's a lot of online that 's that is doing this now . user interface: yes . marketing: and when you 're rotating , you 'll look behind and look this way uh it 's possible to do with this , maybe there 's a possibility of selling more than two million units in one year , which could you know , feasibili feasibility uh lower the price of the unit . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: we can . industrial designer: great . project manager: i do n't think that 's uh not possible , it 's uh okay then , l uh let 's wait for the production , okay , then uh you can evaluate the product , so how it looks like technically and uh how it look like uh the real . user interface: what turnaround time do we have ? project manager: t user interface: 'cause i mean production evaluation can be very very quick or very very long . project manager: oh but yes it 's it 's very quick , of course . it will uh come back in two weeks , okay , it will be ready in two weeks . industrial designer: works for me . project manager: for evaluation , okay . industrial designer: prototypes , you mean . project manager: yes , the prototype uh prototype product evaluation . industrial designer: in um we probably should do some market tests uh once we have the prototypes and do some orders and things like that and test-market it . project manager: yes . yes . yes . marketing: well , obviously . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm that 'd have to be thrown out on the market for people to get an idea , project manager: so you can take a minimum two weeks to a maximum four weeks . marketing: to see get get their user interface: mm-hmm . think minimum two weeks if we 're gon na develop prototypes and then try to take them to different places and see how people use project manager: yeah . user interface: it 's not a trivial task . project manager: yeah , because we we are not going to do it in uh our factory , okay , so we can give it a product evalua user interface: no no . we definitely should n't do it in our factory . project manager: yes , yes . industrial designer: project manager: so we 'll do it in the other place , and i do n't think it 's take more than four weeks time . or uh okay , so then the real production we will start once we product evaluation , okay , then uh it 's approve from uh the technical team and uh your team , okay , uh from the management , then we can launch in the market . hm ? industrial designer: any outstanding ? project manager: s any any other uh questions or uh comments to be discuss ? industrial designer: no , i 'm user interface: what ab industrial designer: go ahead . marketing: i think we pretty much covered everything . project manager: okay , so then uh industrial designer: did you have something ? user interface: well i was just wondering about if we 're gon na do a product evaluation then what about time for redesign if the users come back and tell us no this is bad , this is bad , we want this done differently . project manager: okay uh , let 's take like this . let 's proceed with this model , okay , for the for the marketing direction , okay . industrial designer: project manager: so no more changes will be made , okay , in this the basic design . okay ? so we will introduce m this model and uh let 's introduce in the market and let 's take the feedback from the customers , then we can uh go for the industrial designer: second generation . project manager: second generation . user interface: project manager: okay . there 's no end , there 's not limit . industrial designer: user interface: the problem is there might not be a second generation if the first generation flops for some silly reason that we have n't thought of . project manager: every every custom industrial designer: marketing: well , then it may not be . project manager: okay . well , every customer , okay , they have their own ideas , they have their own test , okay , so there 's no end , there 's no limit . marketing: like people do n't like wood . user interface: no , but there 's a difference between releasing a product that has been minimally tested and fine-tuned to suit a general range of requirements versus releasing a product that we think will work but we do n't really have anything to back it up . marketing: very specific . project manager: yeah , so that 's the reason you are here for uh the design , okay , i hope you made a good design . user interface: yes , but i 'm not everybody . industrial designer: user interface: i mean the whole point of user evaluation is to see what real people need . we have our own motivations in mind , we have our own ideas in mind , but that does n't mean that that 's what 's gon na sell . project manager: yeah , but uh see , we ought to take a few considerations , okay , one is the price consideration , one is future consideration , okay , like uh you can eat uh you can all eat more chi i can eat more chilli , okay , so i it 's a depends on the individual taste , you know , industrial designer: project manager: so we have we have to balance somewhere . user interface: yeah , of course . i 'm just trying to point out that i think that your evaluation and redesign turnaround time is too short well you have no redesign not you personally , but in the project we have no redesign time and project manager: yes . industrial designer: our project does n't um project manager: yeah . industrial designer: ed , d do you know what season of the year or time of the year is the most important for tv remote control sales ? marketing: hmm . industrial designer: would it be the christmas season by any chance ? project manager: the sports time . industrial designer: sports season . which sport season ? marketing: right before the eur the world cup . world soccer . world cup soccer , project manager: football . industrial designer: so so user interface: yeah . marketing: they need those things that they have their hands g occupied and they need to be able to talk to the con remote control . project manager: football . industrial designer: maybe what user interface: industrial designer: so i think what we need to do is perhaps to synchronise the final the the launch of a user-tested device with some special event . marketing: project manager: yes . yes . industrial designer: and and then um user interface: yeah , that 's a good idea . industrial designer: so that gives us a little more time perhaps then we anticipated , because i do n't know when the world cup is , but i 'm sure there 's gon na be one . marketing: or any major sports . industrial designer: or another m major sports event . probably not the um the football games coming up the end of january . i think that might be a little too aggressive um , project manager: yes . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but , so , i 'm just ig uh pointing out a uh a strategy to uh do some additional user testing project manager: research . industrial designer: pri and then to launch um at a a major sports event user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yep . industrial designer: or uh perhaps to uh also user interface: that 's actually good place to advertise it too . industrial designer: and to work with motion pictures . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: there might be some motion pictures that are coming out um that are coming out on d_v_d_ that uh they need to have a m special remote control to work with it , so we could maybe work out a campaign with uh with sony pictures for example . project manager: yes . industrial designer: maybe some management has got uh relationships there we can leverage . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yes , the that of course uh i will convince the management to do that , okay . industrial designer: that 's great . user interface: it 's just something to to keep in mind , 'cause it 's really really important . project manager: sure , sure , yes . user interface: a lot of products have gone out there without being properly user-tested and completely flopped , when in fact it gets re-released a few years down the line with proper testing and it takes off like crazy . industrial designer: disposable diapers is an example of that in fact . user interface: really ? industrial designer: yes , it is one of the first consumer products that was launched about thirty years that was a disposable consumer product , user interface: that i did n't know . industrial designer: and uh people the market had n't really gotten on to the concept that you could use something and then throw it away , 'cause it was n't uh user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: but then when they re-launched them thirty years later , they were virtually the same design , project manager: . industrial designer: but people had gotten the throw-away , you know , paper cups and napki y all kinds of things that they had n't um so , you 're right , timing is very important , user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but i think we 've got a good product . project manager: that 's the reason ed is here . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think he can promote the the brand value and the product value . industrial designer: that 's right . it 's gon na be very important to the company . project manager: yes . we are behind the scene and he is the front screen , so . user interface: yep . project manager: he 's on the big screen . marketing: yeah , i 'm the one who takes the heat . user interface: exactly . industrial designer: good luck , ed . marketing: if it 's a flop , it 's the marketer . industrial designer: you look very relaxed , considering h you know , the uh the weight on your shoulders , yeah . marketing: yes . yes . stress . user interface: project manager: okay , so then uh let 's come to the closing and uh are the costs within the budget marketing: celebration . project manager: and uh is the product evaluated , okay , so that will uh come soon . okay for uh but our time being , so thanks for all your efforts and great work and uh great design and uh let 's leave it to the ed for later for once production is over and the meantime let 's celebrate . so let 's meet up uh this evening to hang up for some party . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: industrial designer: sounds good . project manager: 's good . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: okay . marketing: very good . industrial designer: nice working with you . marketing: thank you very much . project manager: thank you . thank you again for all . user interface: thanks industrial designer: user interface: project manager: and see you in the evening for drinks . marketing: bye-bye . yep , okay , see you later on . user interface: bye .

industrial designer proposed to choose a special time of year which is most important for the tv remote control sales to launch the product for user testing . project manager suggested the sports season which was right before the world cup football and to work with motion pictures coming out on dvd that the users needed to have a special remote control to work with . the group intended to set up a campaign with picture companies .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: industrial designer: project manager: right well . welcome to the what should be the last of these meetings and uh it looks like we 've uh done a good job here and uh we 'll just go through the the final uh the final details . um okay , oh the um th the the minutes of the last meeting uh i think we 'll take those as read , um okay industrial designer: project manager: the um th the the next uh thing we we we 'll have a look at the uh th have a look at the prototypes and uh look at the uh evaluation criteria and finance and then uh uh just tidy up with production and um and then we can close . um so f if if you 'd like to uh present your your proposals . industrial designer: uh okay we basically have the same kinda lay-out here it 's just um you hold it like this and it gets kinda moulded to the to the shape of your hand , basically . um on the left we 've got the scroll for the volume , on the right we have buttons for the channels up and down and that kinda so you can hold it and scroll , or you can hold it and and push . project manager: industrial designer: uh this is the power key , um it 's kinda like the biggest so you know how to turn on . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: uh that 's the little menu key . this is the infra-red section so you g it 'll be sending rays and if you 're you know pointing it like that it can send it , project manager: yep , industrial designer: or if you hold it up like that it 'll send it . project manager: yeah , good , good . industrial designer: uh we got a microphone there which for all the voice commands project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: so you can you know talk to it like that project manager: yep , industrial designer: and it 'll still understand . project manager: right . industrial designer: um the logo is down down there um project manager: uh-huh . user interface: mm . industrial designer: and has the cover on it user interface: s industrial designer: and you can see like it just kinda goes the red bit 's the cover and it kinda goes over everything project manager: yep , yep , industrial designer: and then there 's holes for the buttons to come through . um . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and so we figured it would be kind of you know a light weight plastic , project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: mm . user interface: just kind of a light non-descript grey project manager: yep yep . user interface: so that people 'll wan na buy the covers project manager: yep . user interface: and then the covers will be that sort of rubbery material like they make ipod covers , project manager: showing me age , user interface: so they kinda just stretch over . industrial designer: mm . project manager: i do n't know what i c ipod covers are like . industrial designer: user interface: yeah , well project manager: yeah yeah . user interface: i i did n't know that but yeah they 're kind of it 's just kind of a rubbery project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and that way you know project manager: okay , user interface: spongy like is something that people wanted project manager: yep , right . user interface: and it just sort of stretches over industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and that way i think probably helps protect it a little bit too as well project manager: okay . industrial designer: but it 's also e e easier to put on versus like mobile covers user interface: and industrial designer: you actually have to screw them on and stuff and you kinda sometimes have to get someone to do that for you . this is very much you should be able to stretch it over yourself project manager: yep . user interface: just kinda stretch it over industrial designer: and it 'll be fine . project manager: okay , good yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and it 'll just stay on industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then the buttons come through and so and then the each one of 'em on the very end will have the logo with the yellow circle and the r_r_ . project manager: yep , right . industrial designer: li that 'll be the covers as well , yeah yeah . project manager: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: i mean tha it 's it 's a detailed point , i just wondered i mean h how will people put these down i wonder ? user interface: like that . project manager: right . okay for some strange re reason i had it in my mind that they 'd put them down vertically industrial designer: yeah it could stand , yeah . project manager: but uh uh user interface: oh . industrial designer: well we could broaden the broaden it out a bit project manager: yeah , uh no industrial designer: so it would stand like that . project manager: because particularly if they 've dif if they 're gon na have it as a you know as a fashion item industrial designer: yeah , standing . project manager: uh i mean it it 's uh it it 's just i mean it 's just a minor detailed point , but um as you say you can just make the base a little bit bigger and uh industrial designer: yeah , we could just widen it out uh project manager: yeah and uh it just needs another uh another logo somewhere is is is is all it gives gives people the option and if if say if they 've got them um industrial designer: mm . mm . project manager: because actually have several upon the uh marketing: could have one for your stereo , one for your d_v_ player . industrial designer: mm , yeah , yeah . project manager: yeah , well . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: have to if we just lengthen it i guess project manager: yeah industrial designer: so it comes down to the base of the hand user interface: yeah , project manager: but that that 's uh but uh user interface: just kind of industrial designer: and then flatten it out project manager: no industrial designer: and could sit there . project manager: the the the overall uh the overall concept is uh industrial designer: yeah , mm . user interface: or just make it little . project manager: yeah yeah , industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: somewhere like that project manager: no no , i mean that 's these uh user interface: so it just sort of industrial designer: we might have to lengthen it marketing: yeah i kinda had a a kinda a natural kind of a idea industrial designer: so it kinda your hand still holds it and have it there , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , yeah like that , like that . yeah . marketing: where it 's like more of a kind of like a kinda maybe slightly like thinner , user interface: bu project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah , kinda like that kinda like a flower or a plant project manager: but uh yeah but no th but the yeah the the the industrial designer: mm . marketing: for the more natural kinda user interface: . project manager: yeah , yeah , yeah , industrial designer: the final product would actually stand up , yeah . project manager: i mean it it 's uh would n't user interface: fall over . project manager: would n't do that , indeed yeah . but th th but th yeah th b the user interface: yeah . project manager: these were all minor minor uh minor details , industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think the uh the basic concept i i is is absolutely bang on industrial designer: yeah . user interface: . 's a little longer . project manager: and the i industrial designer: wee project manager: it certainly meets our criteria of being uh of you know looking different . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um , so user interface: yeah . project manager: good that 's that that 's excellent . industrial designer: project manager: um right let us um what 's on the next one ? oh right yes , let 's have a look at the um f finance . um , now we 're given a a clear design brief , uh if i get the uh spreadsheet up . oh . marketing: uh yeah , just click there . project manager: . marketing: uh the the maximise button . project manager: oh right . ah . good , this is why we need to make these things simple so that the uh the the the boss can understand . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: project manager: now i 've um this is the company 's uh uh costing for for various uh uh aspects of design and i i i 've treated some of these slightly uh liberally given the constraints placed on us , um i would n't know for in for instance if if they require us to have it in the corporate colours , then that is not a special colour , that 's a that 's a standard colour . uh , so we 're just simply on batteries , the the one th the one decision i 've had to make is that um we 're we will have to find a s a regular standard chip to to do this with and i i um i 'm i 'm i 'm certain that they they are around so , um that i do n't think is a a serious problem . the uh the the voice sensor is is expensive but we we made a a basic decision that that was absolutely fundamental to the to the design so that that has to stay . um then again the the the the shape of the case means that it 's it 's expensive to uh um l to make 'cause of the the th the double curves but on the other hand because of our overall fashion concept um we we should exceed the the sales targets . um it 's simply made of plastic so th that 's uh that 's no problem and uh um just because the whole the colour of the the whole thing that 's uh uh there 's some cost there . um and uh we have n't actually got a scroll wheel we we we got push buttons and and a simple uh um slider so um and the and the the buttons are uh uh well i do do n't know that they 're special colour . anyway the the costings uh come in at exactly on target at twelve point five uh but i thi i think we have a a very strong case to argue that uh what what we 've got is is so in innovative and uh and different that um any any slight compromise we have to make on on cost is is offset by the uh you know the uh you know the the the the concept of it being a a fashion accessory and and having the the interchangeable covers industrial designer: mm . project manager: so uh um you know the if if if the management expect us to be techno again fail again technologically innovative um that they they have to accept that we we ca n't operate absolutely within uh the constraints that they give , industrial designer: mm . project manager: so uh we we we present this as the uh the company 's uh the the company 's way forward and uh uh i i think we can argue that we we have uh come in on on budget . um . okay , uh . so um . does anybody want to uh uh andrew do you want what do you want to say about um the uh yeah the evaluation marketing: evaluation . project manager: where where you know well where where we 're where where we 're at ? marketing: the the product or the project ? project manager: the the the well the i meant the product . marketing: um , well well my presentation just now ? project manager: yeah . marketing: sure , uh can i get the project manager: oh sorry yeah um , mm . industrial designer: project manager: mm . more loud clicks in the microphone . marketing: cheers . there we go , oh . method of evaluation testing the product was to just if it met all the criteria all the conditions that we set out to set out to solve , from the point of view of the the consumer and the management . so what i 've been asked to do is , on the whiteboard project manager: marketing: um gauge our team response to these questions . so , on a scale of one to seven , one being true and seven being being false . project manager: seven being a nice round number to work to . marketing: yeah . and then at the end just take an average project manager: tr on for true and seven for flase . yes . industrial designer: marketing: yes . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: so uh . so , look at these questions . is the device f flashy and fashionable ? project manager: well i think most definitely . industrial designer: yeah i 'd say definitely a one yeah . user interface: i think it is yeah . marketing: so uh and also uh technologically innovative ? project manager: yes the voice technology indeed . industrial designer: yeah , defi yeah , yeah user interface: yeah . marketing: easy to use ? project manager: i do n't see we could 've made it any easier . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: uh suitable for the consumer ? that was um project manager: totally . industrial designer: yeah definitely . user interface: yeah i think it made we met all of the consumer industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: wants . marketing: uh is it complicated ? project manager: no . user interface: no . marketing: doing pretty well so far are n't we ? uh functional ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah definitely . user interface: yeah . marketing: um . where are we ? project manager: found easily . yeah marketing: we 've b built in the the speech , where are you , function . project manager: i mean that 's that 's industrial designer: yeah . yeah . yeah , mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: uh-huh . industrial designer: project manager: does it take long to learn to use ? should n't . industrial designer: no , not at all . marketing: mm-hmm . and uh , what else ? the r_s_i_ compares to the current standards , project manager: less buttons so it must be . industrial designer: uh marketing: well . we we industrial designer: yeah marketing: uh yeah it was our it was a industrial designer: it is sorta the the handle more ergonomically correct as well . marketing: we made an actual effort to industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: so yeah , um um . marketing: um will device appeal to all age groups ? project manager: i think it will because i mean uh old older people who ca n't manage the buttons anyway will actually probably like the like like the voice bit so industrial designer: mm . user interface: i think so . marketing: yeah , industrial designer: mm . marketing: uh that 's a good call , yeah . well we had the we had the data saying that old people will be less likely to pay extra money but the funct the increased functionality , the e ease of use of the device might make up for that . project manager: and it 's it 's it 's industrial designer: mm . project manager: well i do n't think we 're actually charging a particular premium anyway , in the end , so industrial designer: i i i think it will tend to appeal more to younger aged groups marketing: mm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: just 'cause we have gone with the fashion focus project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and the younger people tend to would be more conscious of that aspect of it , but um i think it should still appeal on a certain level to everybody , yeah . project manager: it will appeal f for dif for different reasons but it 's it 's uh industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah i think just the simplicity of it project manager: yeah yeah industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: and project manager: so i i yeah i user interface: not having to learn to programme industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and not having you know a million buttons . project manager: yeah , so i think we can reasonably say it 's another another one , industrial designer: mm . marketing: project manager: why not ? industrial designer: user interface: marketing: uh can you just click the my mouse to move onto next page ? uh , yeah and what h did we make the management 's project manager: in in in in my interpretation of management 's instructions uh is that yes it it meets the requirement industrial designer: project manager: is t it 's television only , industrial designer: yep . project manager: it 's it 's simple to use , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: um it 's it 's it 's within budget , user interface: under the cost . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yep . project manager: um i it 's uh yes an an any minor points we we we argue . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: um . project manager: so uh i i think we 've done an amazing job industrial designer: yep . project manager: in uh industrial designer: well done us . user interface: marketing: okay . project manager: coming up with what marketing: so uh one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven . eleven divided by eleven 's one so equals average of one . industrial designer: user interface: yeah , . project manager: need a need a calculator for that . marketing: and that roughly concludes my evaluation of the of the product . project manager: okay , industrial designer: excellent . project manager: nick the cable back then . industrial designer: oh no user interface: i mixed up the colours a little bit . industrial designer: that 's user interface: i think i all wrong . project manager: ooh . right do um either of you want to uh say anything ? industrial designer: uh . project manager: mm . user interface: mm . project manager: before i uh industrial designer: user interface: ps i do n't think so , project manager: no . industrial designer: . user interface: i mean i think we worked well together project manager: yeah . user interface: and looked really at what the consumers wanted and what we were trying to make project manager: yeah . user interface: and you know , seemed to discuss things pretty well industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and come to group consensus and project manager: well that 's right , i mean th this this slide here i mean the satisfaction with uh room for creativity , i mean industrial designer: mm . yeah , definitely . project manager: i think we 've allowed ourselves uh as much creativity as the uh the the the product uh allows . user interface: yeah . project manager: um i wo n't comment on leadership , uh teamwork i think we 've uh i think everybody 's uh worked pretty well together . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: um we 've just about coped with the whiteboard and digital pens , uh i think the results speak for itself industrial designer: mm . project manager: and new ideas found , um , again gi no given relatively everyday product , i think we 've v very uh very effectively come up with a a new uh user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yep . project manager: uh a new approach . um are the costs within budget ? yes . is the project evaluated ? we 're we 're all happy that it it meets all the criteria , um industrial designer: yep . project manager: thank you very much indeed , i think that i think that 's uh industrial designer: cool , thank you , user interface: alright . project manager: i think we can go f for an early bath . user interface: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: project manager: so i call the meeting closed . user interface: okay . project manager: not sure how far ahead of schedule we were there .

this is the last meeting of the design group . at first , industrial designer introduced the remote control prototype to the group . it included buttons for channel change , power , menu and also had a slider for volume , an infra-red section and a microphone . the cover was interchangeable with a company logo on it . it was also made of a rubbery material and could stretch over . then project manager went through the costs of various aspects of design and argued that a slight compromise could be made as the remote control would be a fashion accessory and have interchangeable covers . after that , marketing specifically summed up the evaluation criteria of remote control . finally , project manager concluded and praised the teamwork results .

summarize the discussion about remote control prototype . </s> project manager: industrial designer: project manager: right well . welcome to the what should be the last of these meetings and uh it looks like we 've uh done a good job here and uh we 'll just go through the the final uh the final details . um okay , oh the um th the the minutes of the last meeting uh i think we 'll take those as read , um okay industrial designer: project manager: the um th the the next uh thing we we we 'll have a look at the uh th have a look at the prototypes and uh look at the uh evaluation criteria and finance and then uh uh just tidy up with production and um and then we can close . um so f if if you 'd like to uh present your your proposals . industrial designer: uh okay we basically have the same kinda lay-out here it 's just um you hold it like this and it gets kinda moulded to the to the shape of your hand , basically . um on the left we 've got the scroll for the volume , on the right we have buttons for the channels up and down and that kinda so you can hold it and scroll , or you can hold it and and push . project manager: industrial designer: uh this is the power key , um it 's kinda like the biggest so you know how to turn on . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: uh that 's the little menu key . this is the infra-red section so you g it 'll be sending rays and if you 're you know pointing it like that it can send it , project manager: yep , industrial designer: or if you hold it up like that it 'll send it . project manager: yeah , good , good . industrial designer: uh we got a microphone there which for all the voice commands project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: so you can you know talk to it like that project manager: yep , industrial designer: and it 'll still understand . project manager: right . industrial designer: um the logo is down down there um project manager: uh-huh . user interface: mm . industrial designer: and has the cover on it user interface: s industrial designer: and you can see like it just kinda goes the red bit 's the cover and it kinda goes over everything project manager: yep , yep , industrial designer: and then there 's holes for the buttons to come through . um . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and so we figured it would be kind of you know a light weight plastic , project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: mm . user interface: just kind of a light non-descript grey project manager: yep yep . user interface: so that people 'll wan na buy the covers project manager: yep . user interface: and then the covers will be that sort of rubbery material like they make ipod covers , project manager: showing me age , user interface: so they kinda just stretch over . industrial designer: mm . project manager: i do n't know what i c ipod covers are like . industrial designer: user interface: yeah , well project manager: yeah yeah . user interface: i i did n't know that but yeah they 're kind of it 's just kind of a rubbery project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and that way you know project manager: okay , user interface: spongy like is something that people wanted project manager: yep , right . user interface: and it just sort of stretches over industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and that way i think probably helps protect it a little bit too as well project manager: okay . industrial designer: but it 's also e e easier to put on versus like mobile covers user interface: and industrial designer: you actually have to screw them on and stuff and you kinda sometimes have to get someone to do that for you . this is very much you should be able to stretch it over yourself project manager: yep . user interface: just kinda stretch it over industrial designer: and it 'll be fine . project manager: okay , good yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and it 'll just stay on industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then the buttons come through and so and then the each one of 'em on the very end will have the logo with the yellow circle and the r_r_ . project manager: yep , right . industrial designer: li that 'll be the covers as well , yeah yeah . project manager: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: i mean tha it 's it 's a detailed point , i just wondered i mean h how will people put these down i wonder ? user interface: like that . project manager: right . okay for some strange re reason i had it in my mind that they 'd put them down vertically industrial designer: yeah it could stand , yeah . project manager: but uh uh user interface: oh . industrial designer: well we could broaden the broaden it out a bit project manager: yeah , uh no industrial designer: so it would stand like that . project manager: because particularly if they 've dif if they 're gon na have it as a you know as a fashion item industrial designer: yeah , standing . project manager: uh i mean it it 's uh it it 's just i mean it 's just a minor detailed point , but um as you say you can just make the base a little bit bigger and uh industrial designer: yeah , we could just widen it out uh project manager: yeah and uh it just needs another uh another logo somewhere is is is is all it gives gives people the option and if if say if they 've got them um industrial designer: mm . mm . project manager: because actually have several upon the uh marketing: could have one for your stereo , one for your d_v_ player . industrial designer: mm , yeah , yeah . project manager: yeah , well . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: have to if we just lengthen it i guess project manager: yeah industrial designer: so it comes down to the base of the hand user interface: yeah , project manager: but that that 's uh but uh user interface: just kind of industrial designer: and then flatten it out project manager: no industrial designer: and could sit there . project manager: the the the overall uh the overall concept is uh industrial designer: yeah , mm . user interface: or just make it little . project manager: yeah yeah , industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: somewhere like that project manager: no no , i mean that 's these uh user interface: so it just sort of industrial designer: we might have to lengthen it marketing: yeah i kinda had a a kinda a natural kind of a idea industrial designer: so it kinda your hand still holds it and have it there , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , yeah like that , like that . yeah . marketing: where it 's like more of a kind of like a kinda maybe slightly like thinner , user interface: bu project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah , kinda like that kinda like a flower or a plant project manager: but uh yeah but no th but the yeah the the the industrial designer: mm . marketing: for the more natural kinda user interface: . project manager: yeah , yeah , yeah , industrial designer: the final product would actually stand up , yeah . project manager: i mean it it 's uh would n't user interface: fall over . project manager: would n't do that , indeed yeah . but th th but th yeah th b the user interface: yeah . project manager: these were all minor minor uh minor details , industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think the uh the basic concept i i is is absolutely bang on industrial designer: yeah . user interface: . 's a little longer . project manager: and the i industrial designer: wee project manager: it certainly meets our criteria of being uh of you know looking different . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um , so user interface: yeah . project manager: good that 's that that 's excellent . industrial designer: project manager: um right let us um what 's on the next one ? oh right yes , let 's have a look at the um f finance . um , now we 're given a a clear design brief , uh if i get the uh spreadsheet up . oh . marketing: uh yeah , just click there . project manager: . marketing: uh the the maximise button . project manager: oh right . ah . good , this is why we need to make these things simple so that the uh the the the boss can understand . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: project manager: now i 've um this is the company 's uh uh costing for for various uh uh aspects of design and i i i 've treated some of these slightly uh liberally given the constraints placed on us , um i would n't know for in for instance if if they require us to have it in the corporate colours , then that is not a special colour , that 's a that 's a standard colour . uh , so we 're just simply on batteries , the the one th the one decision i 've had to make is that um we 're we will have to find a s a regular standard chip to to do this with and i i um i 'm i 'm i 'm certain that they they are around so , um that i do n't think is a a serious problem . the uh the the voice sensor is is expensive but we we made a a basic decision that that was absolutely fundamental to the to the design so that that has to stay . um then again the the the the shape of the case means that it 's it 's expensive to uh um l to make 'cause of the the th the double curves but on the other hand because of our overall fashion concept um we we should exceed the the sales targets . um it 's simply made of plastic so th that 's uh that 's no problem and uh um just because the whole the colour of the the whole thing that 's uh uh there 's some cost there . um and uh we have n't actually got a scroll wheel we we we got push buttons and and a simple uh um slider so um and the and the the buttons are uh uh well i do do n't know that they 're special colour . anyway the the costings uh come in at exactly on target at twelve point five uh but i thi i think we have a a very strong case to argue that uh what what we 've got is is so in innovative and uh and different that um any any slight compromise we have to make on on cost is is offset by the uh you know the uh you know the the the the concept of it being a a fashion accessory and and having the the interchangeable covers industrial designer: mm . project manager: so uh um you know the if if if the management expect us to be techno again fail again technologically innovative um that they they have to accept that we we ca n't operate absolutely within uh the constraints that they give , industrial designer: mm . project manager: so uh we we we present this as the uh the company 's uh the the company 's way forward and uh uh i i think we can argue that we we have uh come in on on budget . um . okay , uh . so um . does anybody want to uh uh andrew do you want what do you want to say about um the uh yeah the evaluation marketing: evaluation . project manager: where where you know well where where we 're where where we 're at ? marketing: the the product or the project ? project manager: the the the well the i meant the product . marketing: um , well well my presentation just now ? project manager: yeah . marketing: sure , uh can i get the project manager: oh sorry yeah um , mm . industrial designer: project manager: mm . more loud clicks in the microphone . marketing: cheers . there we go , oh . method of evaluation testing the product was to just if it met all the criteria all the conditions that we set out to set out to solve , from the point of view of the the consumer and the management . so what i 've been asked to do is , on the whiteboard project manager: marketing: um gauge our team response to these questions . so , on a scale of one to seven , one being true and seven being being false . project manager: seven being a nice round number to work to . marketing: yeah . and then at the end just take an average project manager: tr on for true and seven for flase . yes . industrial designer: marketing: yes . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: so uh . so , look at these questions . is the device f flashy and fashionable ? project manager: well i think most definitely . industrial designer: yeah i 'd say definitely a one yeah . user interface: i think it is yeah . marketing: so uh and also uh technologically innovative ? project manager: yes the voice technology indeed . industrial designer: yeah , defi yeah , yeah user interface: yeah . marketing: easy to use ? project manager: i do n't see we could 've made it any easier . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: uh suitable for the consumer ? that was um project manager: totally . industrial designer: yeah definitely . user interface: yeah i think it made we met all of the consumer industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: wants . marketing: uh is it complicated ? project manager: no . user interface: no . marketing: doing pretty well so far are n't we ? uh functional ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah definitely . user interface: yeah . marketing: um . where are we ? project manager: found easily . yeah marketing: we 've b built in the the speech , where are you , function . project manager: i mean that 's that 's industrial designer: yeah . yeah . yeah , mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: uh-huh . industrial designer: project manager: does it take long to learn to use ? should n't . industrial designer: no , not at all . marketing: mm-hmm . and uh , what else ? the r_s_i_ compares to the current standards , project manager: less buttons so it must be . industrial designer: uh marketing: well . we we industrial designer: yeah marketing: uh yeah it was our it was a industrial designer: it is sorta the the handle more ergonomically correct as well . marketing: we made an actual effort to industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: so yeah , um um . marketing: um will device appeal to all age groups ? project manager: i think it will because i mean uh old older people who ca n't manage the buttons anyway will actually probably like the like like the voice bit so industrial designer: mm . user interface: i think so . marketing: yeah , industrial designer: mm . marketing: uh that 's a good call , yeah . well we had the we had the data saying that old people will be less likely to pay extra money but the funct the increased functionality , the e ease of use of the device might make up for that . project manager: and it 's it 's it 's industrial designer: mm . project manager: well i do n't think we 're actually charging a particular premium anyway , in the end , so industrial designer: i i i think it will tend to appeal more to younger aged groups marketing: mm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: just 'cause we have gone with the fashion focus project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and the younger people tend to would be more conscious of that aspect of it , but um i think it should still appeal on a certain level to everybody , yeah . project manager: it will appeal f for dif for different reasons but it 's it 's uh industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah i think just the simplicity of it project manager: yeah yeah industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: and project manager: so i i yeah i user interface: not having to learn to programme industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and not having you know a million buttons . project manager: yeah , so i think we can reasonably say it 's another another one , industrial designer: mm . marketing: project manager: why not ? industrial designer: user interface: marketing: uh can you just click the my mouse to move onto next page ? uh , yeah and what h did we make the management 's project manager: in in in in my interpretation of management 's instructions uh is that yes it it meets the requirement industrial designer: project manager: is t it 's television only , industrial designer: yep . project manager: it 's it 's simple to use , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: um it 's it 's it 's within budget , user interface: under the cost . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yep . project manager: um i it 's uh yes an an any minor points we we we argue . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: um . project manager: so uh i i think we 've done an amazing job industrial designer: yep . project manager: in uh industrial designer: well done us . user interface: marketing: okay . project manager: coming up with what marketing: so uh one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven . eleven divided by eleven 's one so equals average of one . industrial designer: user interface: yeah , . project manager: need a need a calculator for that . marketing: and that roughly concludes my evaluation of the of the product . project manager: okay , industrial designer: excellent . project manager: nick the cable back then . industrial designer: oh no user interface: i mixed up the colours a little bit . industrial designer: that 's user interface: i think i all wrong . project manager: ooh . right do um either of you want to uh say anything ? industrial designer: uh . project manager: mm . user interface: mm . project manager: before i uh industrial designer: user interface: ps i do n't think so , project manager: no . industrial designer: . user interface: i mean i think we worked well together project manager: yeah . user interface: and looked really at what the consumers wanted and what we were trying to make project manager: yeah . user interface: and you know , seemed to discuss things pretty well industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and come to group consensus and project manager: well that 's right , i mean th this this slide here i mean the satisfaction with uh room for creativity , i mean industrial designer: mm . yeah , definitely . project manager: i think we 've allowed ourselves uh as much creativity as the uh the the the product uh allows . user interface: yeah . project manager: um i wo n't comment on leadership , uh teamwork i think we 've uh i think everybody 's uh worked pretty well together . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: um we 've just about coped with the whiteboard and digital pens , uh i think the results speak for itself industrial designer: mm . project manager: and new ideas found , um , again gi no given relatively everyday product , i think we 've v very uh very effectively come up with a a new uh user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yep . project manager: uh a new approach . um are the costs within budget ? yes . is the project evaluated ? we 're we 're all happy that it it meets all the criteria , um industrial designer: yep . project manager: thank you very much indeed , i think that i think that 's uh industrial designer: cool , thank you , user interface: alright . project manager: i think we can go f for an early bath . user interface: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: project manager: so i call the meeting closed . user interface: okay . project manager: not sure how far ahead of schedule we were there .

industrial designer introduced the prototype to the team . it included buttons for channel change , power , menu and also had a slider for the volume , an infra-red section and a microphone . the cover was interchangeable with a company logo on it . user interface added that the holes for the buttons to come through would be plastic , while the cover would be made of rubber . the final product would stand up and could stretch over .

what did the group think about the cover when discussing remote control prototype ? </s> project manager: industrial designer: project manager: right well . welcome to the what should be the last of these meetings and uh it looks like we 've uh done a good job here and uh we 'll just go through the the final uh the final details . um okay , oh the um th the the minutes of the last meeting uh i think we 'll take those as read , um okay industrial designer: project manager: the um th the the next uh thing we we we 'll have a look at the uh th have a look at the prototypes and uh look at the uh evaluation criteria and finance and then uh uh just tidy up with production and um and then we can close . um so f if if you 'd like to uh present your your proposals . industrial designer: uh okay we basically have the same kinda lay-out here it 's just um you hold it like this and it gets kinda moulded to the to the shape of your hand , basically . um on the left we 've got the scroll for the volume , on the right we have buttons for the channels up and down and that kinda so you can hold it and scroll , or you can hold it and and push . project manager: industrial designer: uh this is the power key , um it 's kinda like the biggest so you know how to turn on . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: uh that 's the little menu key . this is the infra-red section so you g it 'll be sending rays and if you 're you know pointing it like that it can send it , project manager: yep , industrial designer: or if you hold it up like that it 'll send it . project manager: yeah , good , good . industrial designer: uh we got a microphone there which for all the voice commands project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: so you can you know talk to it like that project manager: yep , industrial designer: and it 'll still understand . project manager: right . industrial designer: um the logo is down down there um project manager: uh-huh . user interface: mm . industrial designer: and has the cover on it user interface: s industrial designer: and you can see like it just kinda goes the red bit 's the cover and it kinda goes over everything project manager: yep , yep , industrial designer: and then there 's holes for the buttons to come through . um . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and so we figured it would be kind of you know a light weight plastic , project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: mm . user interface: just kind of a light non-descript grey project manager: yep yep . user interface: so that people 'll wan na buy the covers project manager: yep . user interface: and then the covers will be that sort of rubbery material like they make ipod covers , project manager: showing me age , user interface: so they kinda just stretch over . industrial designer: mm . project manager: i do n't know what i c ipod covers are like . industrial designer: user interface: yeah , well project manager: yeah yeah . user interface: i i did n't know that but yeah they 're kind of it 's just kind of a rubbery project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and that way you know project manager: okay , user interface: spongy like is something that people wanted project manager: yep , right . user interface: and it just sort of stretches over industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and that way i think probably helps protect it a little bit too as well project manager: okay . industrial designer: but it 's also e e easier to put on versus like mobile covers user interface: and industrial designer: you actually have to screw them on and stuff and you kinda sometimes have to get someone to do that for you . this is very much you should be able to stretch it over yourself project manager: yep . user interface: just kinda stretch it over industrial designer: and it 'll be fine . project manager: okay , good yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and it 'll just stay on industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then the buttons come through and so and then the each one of 'em on the very end will have the logo with the yellow circle and the r_r_ . project manager: yep , right . industrial designer: li that 'll be the covers as well , yeah yeah . project manager: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: i mean tha it 's it 's a detailed point , i just wondered i mean h how will people put these down i wonder ? user interface: like that . project manager: right . okay for some strange re reason i had it in my mind that they 'd put them down vertically industrial designer: yeah it could stand , yeah . project manager: but uh uh user interface: oh . industrial designer: well we could broaden the broaden it out a bit project manager: yeah , uh no industrial designer: so it would stand like that . project manager: because particularly if they 've dif if they 're gon na have it as a you know as a fashion item industrial designer: yeah , standing . project manager: uh i mean it it 's uh it it 's just i mean it 's just a minor detailed point , but um as you say you can just make the base a little bit bigger and uh industrial designer: yeah , we could just widen it out uh project manager: yeah and uh it just needs another uh another logo somewhere is is is is all it gives gives people the option and if if say if they 've got them um industrial designer: mm . mm . project manager: because actually have several upon the uh marketing: could have one for your stereo , one for your d_v_ player . industrial designer: mm , yeah , yeah . project manager: yeah , well . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: have to if we just lengthen it i guess project manager: yeah industrial designer: so it comes down to the base of the hand user interface: yeah , project manager: but that that 's uh but uh user interface: just kind of industrial designer: and then flatten it out project manager: no industrial designer: and could sit there . project manager: the the the overall uh the overall concept is uh industrial designer: yeah , mm . user interface: or just make it little . project manager: yeah yeah , industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: somewhere like that project manager: no no , i mean that 's these uh user interface: so it just sort of industrial designer: we might have to lengthen it marketing: yeah i kinda had a a kinda a natural kind of a idea industrial designer: so it kinda your hand still holds it and have it there , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , yeah like that , like that . yeah . marketing: where it 's like more of a kind of like a kinda maybe slightly like thinner , user interface: bu project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah , kinda like that kinda like a flower or a plant project manager: but uh yeah but no th but the yeah the the the industrial designer: mm . marketing: for the more natural kinda user interface: . project manager: yeah , yeah , yeah , industrial designer: the final product would actually stand up , yeah . project manager: i mean it it 's uh would n't user interface: fall over . project manager: would n't do that , indeed yeah . but th th but th yeah th b the user interface: yeah . project manager: these were all minor minor uh minor details , industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think the uh the basic concept i i is is absolutely bang on industrial designer: yeah . user interface: . 's a little longer . project manager: and the i industrial designer: wee project manager: it certainly meets our criteria of being uh of you know looking different . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um , so user interface: yeah . project manager: good that 's that that 's excellent . industrial designer: project manager: um right let us um what 's on the next one ? oh right yes , let 's have a look at the um f finance . um , now we 're given a a clear design brief , uh if i get the uh spreadsheet up . oh . marketing: uh yeah , just click there . project manager: . marketing: uh the the maximise button . project manager: oh right . ah . good , this is why we need to make these things simple so that the uh the the the boss can understand . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: project manager: now i 've um this is the company 's uh uh costing for for various uh uh aspects of design and i i i 've treated some of these slightly uh liberally given the constraints placed on us , um i would n't know for in for instance if if they require us to have it in the corporate colours , then that is not a special colour , that 's a that 's a standard colour . uh , so we 're just simply on batteries , the the one th the one decision i 've had to make is that um we 're we will have to find a s a regular standard chip to to do this with and i i um i 'm i 'm i 'm certain that they they are around so , um that i do n't think is a a serious problem . the uh the the voice sensor is is expensive but we we made a a basic decision that that was absolutely fundamental to the to the design so that that has to stay . um then again the the the the shape of the case means that it 's it 's expensive to uh um l to make 'cause of the the th the double curves but on the other hand because of our overall fashion concept um we we should exceed the the sales targets . um it 's simply made of plastic so th that 's uh that 's no problem and uh um just because the whole the colour of the the whole thing that 's uh uh there 's some cost there . um and uh we have n't actually got a scroll wheel we we we got push buttons and and a simple uh um slider so um and the and the the buttons are uh uh well i do do n't know that they 're special colour . anyway the the costings uh come in at exactly on target at twelve point five uh but i thi i think we have a a very strong case to argue that uh what what we 've got is is so in innovative and uh and different that um any any slight compromise we have to make on on cost is is offset by the uh you know the uh you know the the the the concept of it being a a fashion accessory and and having the the interchangeable covers industrial designer: mm . project manager: so uh um you know the if if if the management expect us to be techno again fail again technologically innovative um that they they have to accept that we we ca n't operate absolutely within uh the constraints that they give , industrial designer: mm . project manager: so uh we we we present this as the uh the company 's uh the the company 's way forward and uh uh i i think we can argue that we we have uh come in on on budget . um . okay , uh . so um . does anybody want to uh uh andrew do you want what do you want to say about um the uh yeah the evaluation marketing: evaluation . project manager: where where you know well where where we 're where where we 're at ? marketing: the the product or the project ? project manager: the the the well the i meant the product . marketing: um , well well my presentation just now ? project manager: yeah . marketing: sure , uh can i get the project manager: oh sorry yeah um , mm . industrial designer: project manager: mm . more loud clicks in the microphone . marketing: cheers . there we go , oh . method of evaluation testing the product was to just if it met all the criteria all the conditions that we set out to set out to solve , from the point of view of the the consumer and the management . so what i 've been asked to do is , on the whiteboard project manager: marketing: um gauge our team response to these questions . so , on a scale of one to seven , one being true and seven being being false . project manager: seven being a nice round number to work to . marketing: yeah . and then at the end just take an average project manager: tr on for true and seven for flase . yes . industrial designer: marketing: yes . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: so uh . so , look at these questions . is the device f flashy and fashionable ? project manager: well i think most definitely . industrial designer: yeah i 'd say definitely a one yeah . user interface: i think it is yeah . marketing: so uh and also uh technologically innovative ? project manager: yes the voice technology indeed . industrial designer: yeah , defi yeah , yeah user interface: yeah . marketing: easy to use ? project manager: i do n't see we could 've made it any easier . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: uh suitable for the consumer ? that was um project manager: totally . industrial designer: yeah definitely . user interface: yeah i think it made we met all of the consumer industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: wants . marketing: uh is it complicated ? project manager: no . user interface: no . marketing: doing pretty well so far are n't we ? uh functional ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah definitely . user interface: yeah . marketing: um . where are we ? project manager: found easily . yeah marketing: we 've b built in the the speech , where are you , function . project manager: i mean that 's that 's industrial designer: yeah . yeah . yeah , mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: uh-huh . industrial designer: project manager: does it take long to learn to use ? should n't . industrial designer: no , not at all . marketing: mm-hmm . and uh , what else ? the r_s_i_ compares to the current standards , project manager: less buttons so it must be . industrial designer: uh marketing: well . we we industrial designer: yeah marketing: uh yeah it was our it was a industrial designer: it is sorta the the handle more ergonomically correct as well . marketing: we made an actual effort to industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: so yeah , um um . marketing: um will device appeal to all age groups ? project manager: i think it will because i mean uh old older people who ca n't manage the buttons anyway will actually probably like the like like the voice bit so industrial designer: mm . user interface: i think so . marketing: yeah , industrial designer: mm . marketing: uh that 's a good call , yeah . well we had the we had the data saying that old people will be less likely to pay extra money but the funct the increased functionality , the e ease of use of the device might make up for that . project manager: and it 's it 's it 's industrial designer: mm . project manager: well i do n't think we 're actually charging a particular premium anyway , in the end , so industrial designer: i i i think it will tend to appeal more to younger aged groups marketing: mm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: just 'cause we have gone with the fashion focus project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and the younger people tend to would be more conscious of that aspect of it , but um i think it should still appeal on a certain level to everybody , yeah . project manager: it will appeal f for dif for different reasons but it 's it 's uh industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah i think just the simplicity of it project manager: yeah yeah industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: and project manager: so i i yeah i user interface: not having to learn to programme industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and not having you know a million buttons . project manager: yeah , so i think we can reasonably say it 's another another one , industrial designer: mm . marketing: project manager: why not ? industrial designer: user interface: marketing: uh can you just click the my mouse to move onto next page ? uh , yeah and what h did we make the management 's project manager: in in in in my interpretation of management 's instructions uh is that yes it it meets the requirement industrial designer: project manager: is t it 's television only , industrial designer: yep . project manager: it 's it 's simple to use , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: um it 's it 's it 's within budget , user interface: under the cost . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yep . project manager: um i it 's uh yes an an any minor points we we we argue . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: um . project manager: so uh i i think we 've done an amazing job industrial designer: yep . project manager: in uh industrial designer: well done us . user interface: marketing: okay . project manager: coming up with what marketing: so uh one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven . eleven divided by eleven 's one so equals average of one . industrial designer: user interface: yeah , . project manager: need a need a calculator for that . marketing: and that roughly concludes my evaluation of the of the product . project manager: okay , industrial designer: excellent . project manager: nick the cable back then . industrial designer: oh no user interface: i mixed up the colours a little bit . industrial designer: that 's user interface: i think i all wrong . project manager: ooh . right do um either of you want to uh say anything ? industrial designer: uh . project manager: mm . user interface: mm . project manager: before i uh industrial designer: user interface: ps i do n't think so , project manager: no . industrial designer: . user interface: i mean i think we worked well together project manager: yeah . user interface: and looked really at what the consumers wanted and what we were trying to make project manager: yeah . user interface: and you know , seemed to discuss things pretty well industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and come to group consensus and project manager: well that 's right , i mean th this this slide here i mean the satisfaction with uh room for creativity , i mean industrial designer: mm . yeah , definitely . project manager: i think we 've allowed ourselves uh as much creativity as the uh the the the product uh allows . user interface: yeah . project manager: um i wo n't comment on leadership , uh teamwork i think we 've uh i think everybody 's uh worked pretty well together . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: um we 've just about coped with the whiteboard and digital pens , uh i think the results speak for itself industrial designer: mm . project manager: and new ideas found , um , again gi no given relatively everyday product , i think we 've v very uh very effectively come up with a a new uh user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yep . project manager: uh a new approach . um are the costs within budget ? yes . is the project evaluated ? we 're we 're all happy that it it meets all the criteria , um industrial designer: yep . project manager: thank you very much indeed , i think that i think that 's uh industrial designer: cool , thank you , user interface: alright . project manager: i think we can go f for an early bath . user interface: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: project manager: so i call the meeting closed . user interface: okay . project manager: not sure how far ahead of schedule we were there .

user interface proposed that the cover should be made of rubber and could stretch over . project manager agreed but asked industrial designer to broaden it out .

what details did industrial designer give when introducing remote control prototype ? </s> project manager: industrial designer: project manager: right well . welcome to the what should be the last of these meetings and uh it looks like we 've uh done a good job here and uh we 'll just go through the the final uh the final details . um okay , oh the um th the the minutes of the last meeting uh i think we 'll take those as read , um okay industrial designer: project manager: the um th the the next uh thing we we we 'll have a look at the uh th have a look at the prototypes and uh look at the uh evaluation criteria and finance and then uh uh just tidy up with production and um and then we can close . um so f if if you 'd like to uh present your your proposals . industrial designer: uh okay we basically have the same kinda lay-out here it 's just um you hold it like this and it gets kinda moulded to the to the shape of your hand , basically . um on the left we 've got the scroll for the volume , on the right we have buttons for the channels up and down and that kinda so you can hold it and scroll , or you can hold it and and push . project manager: industrial designer: uh this is the power key , um it 's kinda like the biggest so you know how to turn on . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: uh that 's the little menu key . this is the infra-red section so you g it 'll be sending rays and if you 're you know pointing it like that it can send it , project manager: yep , industrial designer: or if you hold it up like that it 'll send it . project manager: yeah , good , good . industrial designer: uh we got a microphone there which for all the voice commands project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: so you can you know talk to it like that project manager: yep , industrial designer: and it 'll still understand . project manager: right . industrial designer: um the logo is down down there um project manager: uh-huh . user interface: mm . industrial designer: and has the cover on it user interface: s industrial designer: and you can see like it just kinda goes the red bit 's the cover and it kinda goes over everything project manager: yep , yep , industrial designer: and then there 's holes for the buttons to come through . um . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and so we figured it would be kind of you know a light weight plastic , project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: mm . user interface: just kind of a light non-descript grey project manager: yep yep . user interface: so that people 'll wan na buy the covers project manager: yep . user interface: and then the covers will be that sort of rubbery material like they make ipod covers , project manager: showing me age , user interface: so they kinda just stretch over . industrial designer: mm . project manager: i do n't know what i c ipod covers are like . industrial designer: user interface: yeah , well project manager: yeah yeah . user interface: i i did n't know that but yeah they 're kind of it 's just kind of a rubbery project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and that way you know project manager: okay , user interface: spongy like is something that people wanted project manager: yep , right . user interface: and it just sort of stretches over industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and that way i think probably helps protect it a little bit too as well project manager: okay . industrial designer: but it 's also e e easier to put on versus like mobile covers user interface: and industrial designer: you actually have to screw them on and stuff and you kinda sometimes have to get someone to do that for you . this is very much you should be able to stretch it over yourself project manager: yep . user interface: just kinda stretch it over industrial designer: and it 'll be fine . project manager: okay , good yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and it 'll just stay on industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then the buttons come through and so and then the each one of 'em on the very end will have the logo with the yellow circle and the r_r_ . project manager: yep , right . industrial designer: li that 'll be the covers as well , yeah yeah . project manager: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: i mean tha it 's it 's a detailed point , i just wondered i mean h how will people put these down i wonder ? user interface: like that . project manager: right . okay for some strange re reason i had it in my mind that they 'd put them down vertically industrial designer: yeah it could stand , yeah . project manager: but uh uh user interface: oh . industrial designer: well we could broaden the broaden it out a bit project manager: yeah , uh no industrial designer: so it would stand like that . project manager: because particularly if they 've dif if they 're gon na have it as a you know as a fashion item industrial designer: yeah , standing . project manager: uh i mean it it 's uh it it 's just i mean it 's just a minor detailed point , but um as you say you can just make the base a little bit bigger and uh industrial designer: yeah , we could just widen it out uh project manager: yeah and uh it just needs another uh another logo somewhere is is is is all it gives gives people the option and if if say if they 've got them um industrial designer: mm . mm . project manager: because actually have several upon the uh marketing: could have one for your stereo , one for your d_v_ player . industrial designer: mm , yeah , yeah . project manager: yeah , well . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: have to if we just lengthen it i guess project manager: yeah industrial designer: so it comes down to the base of the hand user interface: yeah , project manager: but that that 's uh but uh user interface: just kind of industrial designer: and then flatten it out project manager: no industrial designer: and could sit there . project manager: the the the overall uh the overall concept is uh industrial designer: yeah , mm . user interface: or just make it little . project manager: yeah yeah , industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: somewhere like that project manager: no no , i mean that 's these uh user interface: so it just sort of industrial designer: we might have to lengthen it marketing: yeah i kinda had a a kinda a natural kind of a idea industrial designer: so it kinda your hand still holds it and have it there , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , yeah like that , like that . yeah . marketing: where it 's like more of a kind of like a kinda maybe slightly like thinner , user interface: bu project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah , kinda like that kinda like a flower or a plant project manager: but uh yeah but no th but the yeah the the the industrial designer: mm . marketing: for the more natural kinda user interface: . project manager: yeah , yeah , yeah , industrial designer: the final product would actually stand up , yeah . project manager: i mean it it 's uh would n't user interface: fall over . project manager: would n't do that , indeed yeah . but th th but th yeah th b the user interface: yeah . project manager: these were all minor minor uh minor details , industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think the uh the basic concept i i is is absolutely bang on industrial designer: yeah . user interface: . 's a little longer . project manager: and the i industrial designer: wee project manager: it certainly meets our criteria of being uh of you know looking different . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um , so user interface: yeah . project manager: good that 's that that 's excellent . industrial designer: project manager: um right let us um what 's on the next one ? oh right yes , let 's have a look at the um f finance . um , now we 're given a a clear design brief , uh if i get the uh spreadsheet up . oh . marketing: uh yeah , just click there . project manager: . marketing: uh the the maximise button . project manager: oh right . ah . good , this is why we need to make these things simple so that the uh the the the boss can understand . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: project manager: now i 've um this is the company 's uh uh costing for for various uh uh aspects of design and i i i 've treated some of these slightly uh liberally given the constraints placed on us , um i would n't know for in for instance if if they require us to have it in the corporate colours , then that is not a special colour , that 's a that 's a standard colour . uh , so we 're just simply on batteries , the the one th the one decision i 've had to make is that um we 're we will have to find a s a regular standard chip to to do this with and i i um i 'm i 'm i 'm certain that they they are around so , um that i do n't think is a a serious problem . the uh the the voice sensor is is expensive but we we made a a basic decision that that was absolutely fundamental to the to the design so that that has to stay . um then again the the the the shape of the case means that it 's it 's expensive to uh um l to make 'cause of the the th the double curves but on the other hand because of our overall fashion concept um we we should exceed the the sales targets . um it 's simply made of plastic so th that 's uh that 's no problem and uh um just because the whole the colour of the the whole thing that 's uh uh there 's some cost there . um and uh we have n't actually got a scroll wheel we we we got push buttons and and a simple uh um slider so um and the and the the buttons are uh uh well i do do n't know that they 're special colour . anyway the the costings uh come in at exactly on target at twelve point five uh but i thi i think we have a a very strong case to argue that uh what what we 've got is is so in innovative and uh and different that um any any slight compromise we have to make on on cost is is offset by the uh you know the uh you know the the the the concept of it being a a fashion accessory and and having the the interchangeable covers industrial designer: mm . project manager: so uh um you know the if if if the management expect us to be techno again fail again technologically innovative um that they they have to accept that we we ca n't operate absolutely within uh the constraints that they give , industrial designer: mm . project manager: so uh we we we present this as the uh the company 's uh the the company 's way forward and uh uh i i think we can argue that we we have uh come in on on budget . um . okay , uh . so um . does anybody want to uh uh andrew do you want what do you want to say about um the uh yeah the evaluation marketing: evaluation . project manager: where where you know well where where we 're where where we 're at ? marketing: the the product or the project ? project manager: the the the well the i meant the product . marketing: um , well well my presentation just now ? project manager: yeah . marketing: sure , uh can i get the project manager: oh sorry yeah um , mm . industrial designer: project manager: mm . more loud clicks in the microphone . marketing: cheers . there we go , oh . method of evaluation testing the product was to just if it met all the criteria all the conditions that we set out to set out to solve , from the point of view of the the consumer and the management . so what i 've been asked to do is , on the whiteboard project manager: marketing: um gauge our team response to these questions . so , on a scale of one to seven , one being true and seven being being false . project manager: seven being a nice round number to work to . marketing: yeah . and then at the end just take an average project manager: tr on for true and seven for flase . yes . industrial designer: marketing: yes . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: so uh . so , look at these questions . is the device f flashy and fashionable ? project manager: well i think most definitely . industrial designer: yeah i 'd say definitely a one yeah . user interface: i think it is yeah . marketing: so uh and also uh technologically innovative ? project manager: yes the voice technology indeed . industrial designer: yeah , defi yeah , yeah user interface: yeah . marketing: easy to use ? project manager: i do n't see we could 've made it any easier . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: uh suitable for the consumer ? that was um project manager: totally . industrial designer: yeah definitely . user interface: yeah i think it made we met all of the consumer industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: wants . marketing: uh is it complicated ? project manager: no . user interface: no . marketing: doing pretty well so far are n't we ? uh functional ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah definitely . user interface: yeah . marketing: um . where are we ? project manager: found easily . yeah marketing: we 've b built in the the speech , where are you , function . project manager: i mean that 's that 's industrial designer: yeah . yeah . yeah , mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: uh-huh . industrial designer: project manager: does it take long to learn to use ? should n't . industrial designer: no , not at all . marketing: mm-hmm . and uh , what else ? the r_s_i_ compares to the current standards , project manager: less buttons so it must be . industrial designer: uh marketing: well . we we industrial designer: yeah marketing: uh yeah it was our it was a industrial designer: it is sorta the the handle more ergonomically correct as well . marketing: we made an actual effort to industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: so yeah , um um . marketing: um will device appeal to all age groups ? project manager: i think it will because i mean uh old older people who ca n't manage the buttons anyway will actually probably like the like like the voice bit so industrial designer: mm . user interface: i think so . marketing: yeah , industrial designer: mm . marketing: uh that 's a good call , yeah . well we had the we had the data saying that old people will be less likely to pay extra money but the funct the increased functionality , the e ease of use of the device might make up for that . project manager: and it 's it 's it 's industrial designer: mm . project manager: well i do n't think we 're actually charging a particular premium anyway , in the end , so industrial designer: i i i think it will tend to appeal more to younger aged groups marketing: mm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: just 'cause we have gone with the fashion focus project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and the younger people tend to would be more conscious of that aspect of it , but um i think it should still appeal on a certain level to everybody , yeah . project manager: it will appeal f for dif for different reasons but it 's it 's uh industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah i think just the simplicity of it project manager: yeah yeah industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: and project manager: so i i yeah i user interface: not having to learn to programme industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and not having you know a million buttons . project manager: yeah , so i think we can reasonably say it 's another another one , industrial designer: mm . marketing: project manager: why not ? industrial designer: user interface: marketing: uh can you just click the my mouse to move onto next page ? uh , yeah and what h did we make the management 's project manager: in in in in my interpretation of management 's instructions uh is that yes it it meets the requirement industrial designer: project manager: is t it 's television only , industrial designer: yep . project manager: it 's it 's simple to use , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: um it 's it 's it 's within budget , user interface: under the cost . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yep . project manager: um i it 's uh yes an an any minor points we we we argue . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: um . project manager: so uh i i think we 've done an amazing job industrial designer: yep . project manager: in uh industrial designer: well done us . user interface: marketing: okay . project manager: coming up with what marketing: so uh one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven . eleven divided by eleven 's one so equals average of one . industrial designer: user interface: yeah , . project manager: need a need a calculator for that . marketing: and that roughly concludes my evaluation of the of the product . project manager: okay , industrial designer: excellent . project manager: nick the cable back then . industrial designer: oh no user interface: i mixed up the colours a little bit . industrial designer: that 's user interface: i think i all wrong . project manager: ooh . right do um either of you want to uh say anything ? industrial designer: uh . project manager: mm . user interface: mm . project manager: before i uh industrial designer: user interface: ps i do n't think so , project manager: no . industrial designer: . user interface: i mean i think we worked well together project manager: yeah . user interface: and looked really at what the consumers wanted and what we were trying to make project manager: yeah . user interface: and you know , seemed to discuss things pretty well industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and come to group consensus and project manager: well that 's right , i mean th this this slide here i mean the satisfaction with uh room for creativity , i mean industrial designer: mm . yeah , definitely . project manager: i think we 've allowed ourselves uh as much creativity as the uh the the the product uh allows . user interface: yeah . project manager: um i wo n't comment on leadership , uh teamwork i think we 've uh i think everybody 's uh worked pretty well together . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: um we 've just about coped with the whiteboard and digital pens , uh i think the results speak for itself industrial designer: mm . project manager: and new ideas found , um , again gi no given relatively everyday product , i think we 've v very uh very effectively come up with a a new uh user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yep . project manager: uh a new approach . um are the costs within budget ? yes . is the project evaluated ? we 're we 're all happy that it it meets all the criteria , um industrial designer: yep . project manager: thank you very much indeed , i think that i think that 's uh industrial designer: cool , thank you , user interface: alright . project manager: i think we can go f for an early bath . user interface: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: project manager: so i call the meeting closed . user interface: okay . project manager: not sure how far ahead of schedule we were there .

the remote control would be moulded to the shape of the hand when people held it . on the left there was a slider for the volume , and on the right there were several buttons . the power key would be the biggest so that people knew how to turn on the television . there would also be a microphone for all the voice commands .

what did the group discuss about evaluation criteria of remote control ? </s> project manager: industrial designer: project manager: right well . welcome to the what should be the last of these meetings and uh it looks like we 've uh done a good job here and uh we 'll just go through the the final uh the final details . um okay , oh the um th the the minutes of the last meeting uh i think we 'll take those as read , um okay industrial designer: project manager: the um th the the next uh thing we we we 'll have a look at the uh th have a look at the prototypes and uh look at the uh evaluation criteria and finance and then uh uh just tidy up with production and um and then we can close . um so f if if you 'd like to uh present your your proposals . industrial designer: uh okay we basically have the same kinda lay-out here it 's just um you hold it like this and it gets kinda moulded to the to the shape of your hand , basically . um on the left we 've got the scroll for the volume , on the right we have buttons for the channels up and down and that kinda so you can hold it and scroll , or you can hold it and and push . project manager: industrial designer: uh this is the power key , um it 's kinda like the biggest so you know how to turn on . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: uh that 's the little menu key . this is the infra-red section so you g it 'll be sending rays and if you 're you know pointing it like that it can send it , project manager: yep , industrial designer: or if you hold it up like that it 'll send it . project manager: yeah , good , good . industrial designer: uh we got a microphone there which for all the voice commands project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: so you can you know talk to it like that project manager: yep , industrial designer: and it 'll still understand . project manager: right . industrial designer: um the logo is down down there um project manager: uh-huh . user interface: mm . industrial designer: and has the cover on it user interface: s industrial designer: and you can see like it just kinda goes the red bit 's the cover and it kinda goes over everything project manager: yep , yep , industrial designer: and then there 's holes for the buttons to come through . um . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and so we figured it would be kind of you know a light weight plastic , project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: mm . user interface: just kind of a light non-descript grey project manager: yep yep . user interface: so that people 'll wan na buy the covers project manager: yep . user interface: and then the covers will be that sort of rubbery material like they make ipod covers , project manager: showing me age , user interface: so they kinda just stretch over . industrial designer: mm . project manager: i do n't know what i c ipod covers are like . industrial designer: user interface: yeah , well project manager: yeah yeah . user interface: i i did n't know that but yeah they 're kind of it 's just kind of a rubbery project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and that way you know project manager: okay , user interface: spongy like is something that people wanted project manager: yep , right . user interface: and it just sort of stretches over industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and that way i think probably helps protect it a little bit too as well project manager: okay . industrial designer: but it 's also e e easier to put on versus like mobile covers user interface: and industrial designer: you actually have to screw them on and stuff and you kinda sometimes have to get someone to do that for you . this is very much you should be able to stretch it over yourself project manager: yep . user interface: just kinda stretch it over industrial designer: and it 'll be fine . project manager: okay , good yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and it 'll just stay on industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then the buttons come through and so and then the each one of 'em on the very end will have the logo with the yellow circle and the r_r_ . project manager: yep , right . industrial designer: li that 'll be the covers as well , yeah yeah . project manager: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: i mean tha it 's it 's a detailed point , i just wondered i mean h how will people put these down i wonder ? user interface: like that . project manager: right . okay for some strange re reason i had it in my mind that they 'd put them down vertically industrial designer: yeah it could stand , yeah . project manager: but uh uh user interface: oh . industrial designer: well we could broaden the broaden it out a bit project manager: yeah , uh no industrial designer: so it would stand like that . project manager: because particularly if they 've dif if they 're gon na have it as a you know as a fashion item industrial designer: yeah , standing . project manager: uh i mean it it 's uh it it 's just i mean it 's just a minor detailed point , but um as you say you can just make the base a little bit bigger and uh industrial designer: yeah , we could just widen it out uh project manager: yeah and uh it just needs another uh another logo somewhere is is is is all it gives gives people the option and if if say if they 've got them um industrial designer: mm . mm . project manager: because actually have several upon the uh marketing: could have one for your stereo , one for your d_v_ player . industrial designer: mm , yeah , yeah . project manager: yeah , well . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: have to if we just lengthen it i guess project manager: yeah industrial designer: so it comes down to the base of the hand user interface: yeah , project manager: but that that 's uh but uh user interface: just kind of industrial designer: and then flatten it out project manager: no industrial designer: and could sit there . project manager: the the the overall uh the overall concept is uh industrial designer: yeah , mm . user interface: or just make it little . project manager: yeah yeah , industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: somewhere like that project manager: no no , i mean that 's these uh user interface: so it just sort of industrial designer: we might have to lengthen it marketing: yeah i kinda had a a kinda a natural kind of a idea industrial designer: so it kinda your hand still holds it and have it there , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , yeah like that , like that . yeah . marketing: where it 's like more of a kind of like a kinda maybe slightly like thinner , user interface: bu project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah , kinda like that kinda like a flower or a plant project manager: but uh yeah but no th but the yeah the the the industrial designer: mm . marketing: for the more natural kinda user interface: . project manager: yeah , yeah , yeah , industrial designer: the final product would actually stand up , yeah . project manager: i mean it it 's uh would n't user interface: fall over . project manager: would n't do that , indeed yeah . but th th but th yeah th b the user interface: yeah . project manager: these were all minor minor uh minor details , industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think the uh the basic concept i i is is absolutely bang on industrial designer: yeah . user interface: . 's a little longer . project manager: and the i industrial designer: wee project manager: it certainly meets our criteria of being uh of you know looking different . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um , so user interface: yeah . project manager: good that 's that that 's excellent . industrial designer: project manager: um right let us um what 's on the next one ? oh right yes , let 's have a look at the um f finance . um , now we 're given a a clear design brief , uh if i get the uh spreadsheet up . oh . marketing: uh yeah , just click there . project manager: . marketing: uh the the maximise button . project manager: oh right . ah . good , this is why we need to make these things simple so that the uh the the the boss can understand . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: project manager: now i 've um this is the company 's uh uh costing for for various uh uh aspects of design and i i i 've treated some of these slightly uh liberally given the constraints placed on us , um i would n't know for in for instance if if they require us to have it in the corporate colours , then that is not a special colour , that 's a that 's a standard colour . uh , so we 're just simply on batteries , the the one th the one decision i 've had to make is that um we 're we will have to find a s a regular standard chip to to do this with and i i um i 'm i 'm i 'm certain that they they are around so , um that i do n't think is a a serious problem . the uh the the voice sensor is is expensive but we we made a a basic decision that that was absolutely fundamental to the to the design so that that has to stay . um then again the the the the shape of the case means that it 's it 's expensive to uh um l to make 'cause of the the th the double curves but on the other hand because of our overall fashion concept um we we should exceed the the sales targets . um it 's simply made of plastic so th that 's uh that 's no problem and uh um just because the whole the colour of the the whole thing that 's uh uh there 's some cost there . um and uh we have n't actually got a scroll wheel we we we got push buttons and and a simple uh um slider so um and the and the the buttons are uh uh well i do do n't know that they 're special colour . anyway the the costings uh come in at exactly on target at twelve point five uh but i thi i think we have a a very strong case to argue that uh what what we 've got is is so in innovative and uh and different that um any any slight compromise we have to make on on cost is is offset by the uh you know the uh you know the the the the concept of it being a a fashion accessory and and having the the interchangeable covers industrial designer: mm . project manager: so uh um you know the if if if the management expect us to be techno again fail again technologically innovative um that they they have to accept that we we ca n't operate absolutely within uh the constraints that they give , industrial designer: mm . project manager: so uh we we we present this as the uh the company 's uh the the company 's way forward and uh uh i i think we can argue that we we have uh come in on on budget . um . okay , uh . so um . does anybody want to uh uh andrew do you want what do you want to say about um the uh yeah the evaluation marketing: evaluation . project manager: where where you know well where where we 're where where we 're at ? marketing: the the product or the project ? project manager: the the the well the i meant the product . marketing: um , well well my presentation just now ? project manager: yeah . marketing: sure , uh can i get the project manager: oh sorry yeah um , mm . industrial designer: project manager: mm . more loud clicks in the microphone . marketing: cheers . there we go , oh . method of evaluation testing the product was to just if it met all the criteria all the conditions that we set out to set out to solve , from the point of view of the the consumer and the management . so what i 've been asked to do is , on the whiteboard project manager: marketing: um gauge our team response to these questions . so , on a scale of one to seven , one being true and seven being being false . project manager: seven being a nice round number to work to . marketing: yeah . and then at the end just take an average project manager: tr on for true and seven for flase . yes . industrial designer: marketing: yes . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: so uh . so , look at these questions . is the device f flashy and fashionable ? project manager: well i think most definitely . industrial designer: yeah i 'd say definitely a one yeah . user interface: i think it is yeah . marketing: so uh and also uh technologically innovative ? project manager: yes the voice technology indeed . industrial designer: yeah , defi yeah , yeah user interface: yeah . marketing: easy to use ? project manager: i do n't see we could 've made it any easier . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: uh suitable for the consumer ? that was um project manager: totally . industrial designer: yeah definitely . user interface: yeah i think it made we met all of the consumer industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: wants . marketing: uh is it complicated ? project manager: no . user interface: no . marketing: doing pretty well so far are n't we ? uh functional ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah definitely . user interface: yeah . marketing: um . where are we ? project manager: found easily . yeah marketing: we 've b built in the the speech , where are you , function . project manager: i mean that 's that 's industrial designer: yeah . yeah . yeah , mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: uh-huh . industrial designer: project manager: does it take long to learn to use ? should n't . industrial designer: no , not at all . marketing: mm-hmm . and uh , what else ? the r_s_i_ compares to the current standards , project manager: less buttons so it must be . industrial designer: uh marketing: well . we we industrial designer: yeah marketing: uh yeah it was our it was a industrial designer: it is sorta the the handle more ergonomically correct as well . marketing: we made an actual effort to industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: so yeah , um um . marketing: um will device appeal to all age groups ? project manager: i think it will because i mean uh old older people who ca n't manage the buttons anyway will actually probably like the like like the voice bit so industrial designer: mm . user interface: i think so . marketing: yeah , industrial designer: mm . marketing: uh that 's a good call , yeah . well we had the we had the data saying that old people will be less likely to pay extra money but the funct the increased functionality , the e ease of use of the device might make up for that . project manager: and it 's it 's it 's industrial designer: mm . project manager: well i do n't think we 're actually charging a particular premium anyway , in the end , so industrial designer: i i i think it will tend to appeal more to younger aged groups marketing: mm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: just 'cause we have gone with the fashion focus project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and the younger people tend to would be more conscious of that aspect of it , but um i think it should still appeal on a certain level to everybody , yeah . project manager: it will appeal f for dif for different reasons but it 's it 's uh industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah i think just the simplicity of it project manager: yeah yeah industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: and project manager: so i i yeah i user interface: not having to learn to programme industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and not having you know a million buttons . project manager: yeah , so i think we can reasonably say it 's another another one , industrial designer: mm . marketing: project manager: why not ? industrial designer: user interface: marketing: uh can you just click the my mouse to move onto next page ? uh , yeah and what h did we make the management 's project manager: in in in in my interpretation of management 's instructions uh is that yes it it meets the requirement industrial designer: project manager: is t it 's television only , industrial designer: yep . project manager: it 's it 's simple to use , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: um it 's it 's it 's within budget , user interface: under the cost . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yep . project manager: um i it 's uh yes an an any minor points we we we argue . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: um . project manager: so uh i i think we 've done an amazing job industrial designer: yep . project manager: in uh industrial designer: well done us . user interface: marketing: okay . project manager: coming up with what marketing: so uh one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven . eleven divided by eleven 's one so equals average of one . industrial designer: user interface: yeah , . project manager: need a need a calculator for that . marketing: and that roughly concludes my evaluation of the of the product . project manager: okay , industrial designer: excellent . project manager: nick the cable back then . industrial designer: oh no user interface: i mixed up the colours a little bit . industrial designer: that 's user interface: i think i all wrong . project manager: ooh . right do um either of you want to uh say anything ? industrial designer: uh . project manager: mm . user interface: mm . project manager: before i uh industrial designer: user interface: ps i do n't think so , project manager: no . industrial designer: . user interface: i mean i think we worked well together project manager: yeah . user interface: and looked really at what the consumers wanted and what we were trying to make project manager: yeah . user interface: and you know , seemed to discuss things pretty well industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and come to group consensus and project manager: well that 's right , i mean th this this slide here i mean the satisfaction with uh room for creativity , i mean industrial designer: mm . yeah , definitely . project manager: i think we 've allowed ourselves uh as much creativity as the uh the the the product uh allows . user interface: yeah . project manager: um i wo n't comment on leadership , uh teamwork i think we 've uh i think everybody 's uh worked pretty well together . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: um we 've just about coped with the whiteboard and digital pens , uh i think the results speak for itself industrial designer: mm . project manager: and new ideas found , um , again gi no given relatively everyday product , i think we 've v very uh very effectively come up with a a new uh user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yep . project manager: uh a new approach . um are the costs within budget ? yes . is the project evaluated ? we 're we 're all happy that it it meets all the criteria , um industrial designer: yep . project manager: thank you very much indeed , i think that i think that 's uh industrial designer: cool , thank you , user interface: alright . project manager: i think we can go f for an early bath . user interface: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: project manager: so i call the meeting closed . user interface: okay . project manager: not sure how far ahead of schedule we were there .

marketing believed that the remote control should be : fashionable ; technologically innovative ; easy to use ; suitable for the customer ; not complicated ; functional ; not inclined to cause rsi . project manager agreed and added that it should not take long to learn to use .

what age groups did the team think would the device appeal to when discussing evaluation criteria of remote control ? </s> project manager: industrial designer: project manager: right well . welcome to the what should be the last of these meetings and uh it looks like we 've uh done a good job here and uh we 'll just go through the the final uh the final details . um okay , oh the um th the the minutes of the last meeting uh i think we 'll take those as read , um okay industrial designer: project manager: the um th the the next uh thing we we we 'll have a look at the uh th have a look at the prototypes and uh look at the uh evaluation criteria and finance and then uh uh just tidy up with production and um and then we can close . um so f if if you 'd like to uh present your your proposals . industrial designer: uh okay we basically have the same kinda lay-out here it 's just um you hold it like this and it gets kinda moulded to the to the shape of your hand , basically . um on the left we 've got the scroll for the volume , on the right we have buttons for the channels up and down and that kinda so you can hold it and scroll , or you can hold it and and push . project manager: industrial designer: uh this is the power key , um it 's kinda like the biggest so you know how to turn on . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: uh that 's the little menu key . this is the infra-red section so you g it 'll be sending rays and if you 're you know pointing it like that it can send it , project manager: yep , industrial designer: or if you hold it up like that it 'll send it . project manager: yeah , good , good . industrial designer: uh we got a microphone there which for all the voice commands project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: so you can you know talk to it like that project manager: yep , industrial designer: and it 'll still understand . project manager: right . industrial designer: um the logo is down down there um project manager: uh-huh . user interface: mm . industrial designer: and has the cover on it user interface: s industrial designer: and you can see like it just kinda goes the red bit 's the cover and it kinda goes over everything project manager: yep , yep , industrial designer: and then there 's holes for the buttons to come through . um . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and so we figured it would be kind of you know a light weight plastic , project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: mm . user interface: just kind of a light non-descript grey project manager: yep yep . user interface: so that people 'll wan na buy the covers project manager: yep . user interface: and then the covers will be that sort of rubbery material like they make ipod covers , project manager: showing me age , user interface: so they kinda just stretch over . industrial designer: mm . project manager: i do n't know what i c ipod covers are like . industrial designer: user interface: yeah , well project manager: yeah yeah . user interface: i i did n't know that but yeah they 're kind of it 's just kind of a rubbery project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and that way you know project manager: okay , user interface: spongy like is something that people wanted project manager: yep , right . user interface: and it just sort of stretches over industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and that way i think probably helps protect it a little bit too as well project manager: okay . industrial designer: but it 's also e e easier to put on versus like mobile covers user interface: and industrial designer: you actually have to screw them on and stuff and you kinda sometimes have to get someone to do that for you . this is very much you should be able to stretch it over yourself project manager: yep . user interface: just kinda stretch it over industrial designer: and it 'll be fine . project manager: okay , good yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and it 'll just stay on industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then the buttons come through and so and then the each one of 'em on the very end will have the logo with the yellow circle and the r_r_ . project manager: yep , right . industrial designer: li that 'll be the covers as well , yeah yeah . project manager: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: i mean tha it 's it 's a detailed point , i just wondered i mean h how will people put these down i wonder ? user interface: like that . project manager: right . okay for some strange re reason i had it in my mind that they 'd put them down vertically industrial designer: yeah it could stand , yeah . project manager: but uh uh user interface: oh . industrial designer: well we could broaden the broaden it out a bit project manager: yeah , uh no industrial designer: so it would stand like that . project manager: because particularly if they 've dif if they 're gon na have it as a you know as a fashion item industrial designer: yeah , standing . project manager: uh i mean it it 's uh it it 's just i mean it 's just a minor detailed point , but um as you say you can just make the base a little bit bigger and uh industrial designer: yeah , we could just widen it out uh project manager: yeah and uh it just needs another uh another logo somewhere is is is is all it gives gives people the option and if if say if they 've got them um industrial designer: mm . mm . project manager: because actually have several upon the uh marketing: could have one for your stereo , one for your d_v_ player . industrial designer: mm , yeah , yeah . project manager: yeah , well . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: have to if we just lengthen it i guess project manager: yeah industrial designer: so it comes down to the base of the hand user interface: yeah , project manager: but that that 's uh but uh user interface: just kind of industrial designer: and then flatten it out project manager: no industrial designer: and could sit there . project manager: the the the overall uh the overall concept is uh industrial designer: yeah , mm . user interface: or just make it little . project manager: yeah yeah , industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: somewhere like that project manager: no no , i mean that 's these uh user interface: so it just sort of industrial designer: we might have to lengthen it marketing: yeah i kinda had a a kinda a natural kind of a idea industrial designer: so it kinda your hand still holds it and have it there , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , yeah like that , like that . yeah . marketing: where it 's like more of a kind of like a kinda maybe slightly like thinner , user interface: bu project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah , kinda like that kinda like a flower or a plant project manager: but uh yeah but no th but the yeah the the the industrial designer: mm . marketing: for the more natural kinda user interface: . project manager: yeah , yeah , yeah , industrial designer: the final product would actually stand up , yeah . project manager: i mean it it 's uh would n't user interface: fall over . project manager: would n't do that , indeed yeah . but th th but th yeah th b the user interface: yeah . project manager: these were all minor minor uh minor details , industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think the uh the basic concept i i is is absolutely bang on industrial designer: yeah . user interface: . 's a little longer . project manager: and the i industrial designer: wee project manager: it certainly meets our criteria of being uh of you know looking different . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um , so user interface: yeah . project manager: good that 's that that 's excellent . industrial designer: project manager: um right let us um what 's on the next one ? oh right yes , let 's have a look at the um f finance . um , now we 're given a a clear design brief , uh if i get the uh spreadsheet up . oh . marketing: uh yeah , just click there . project manager: . marketing: uh the the maximise button . project manager: oh right . ah . good , this is why we need to make these things simple so that the uh the the the boss can understand . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: project manager: now i 've um this is the company 's uh uh costing for for various uh uh aspects of design and i i i 've treated some of these slightly uh liberally given the constraints placed on us , um i would n't know for in for instance if if they require us to have it in the corporate colours , then that is not a special colour , that 's a that 's a standard colour . uh , so we 're just simply on batteries , the the one th the one decision i 've had to make is that um we 're we will have to find a s a regular standard chip to to do this with and i i um i 'm i 'm i 'm certain that they they are around so , um that i do n't think is a a serious problem . the uh the the voice sensor is is expensive but we we made a a basic decision that that was absolutely fundamental to the to the design so that that has to stay . um then again the the the the shape of the case means that it 's it 's expensive to uh um l to make 'cause of the the th the double curves but on the other hand because of our overall fashion concept um we we should exceed the the sales targets . um it 's simply made of plastic so th that 's uh that 's no problem and uh um just because the whole the colour of the the whole thing that 's uh uh there 's some cost there . um and uh we have n't actually got a scroll wheel we we we got push buttons and and a simple uh um slider so um and the and the the buttons are uh uh well i do do n't know that they 're special colour . anyway the the costings uh come in at exactly on target at twelve point five uh but i thi i think we have a a very strong case to argue that uh what what we 've got is is so in innovative and uh and different that um any any slight compromise we have to make on on cost is is offset by the uh you know the uh you know the the the the concept of it being a a fashion accessory and and having the the interchangeable covers industrial designer: mm . project manager: so uh um you know the if if if the management expect us to be techno again fail again technologically innovative um that they they have to accept that we we ca n't operate absolutely within uh the constraints that they give , industrial designer: mm . project manager: so uh we we we present this as the uh the company 's uh the the company 's way forward and uh uh i i think we can argue that we we have uh come in on on budget . um . okay , uh . so um . does anybody want to uh uh andrew do you want what do you want to say about um the uh yeah the evaluation marketing: evaluation . project manager: where where you know well where where we 're where where we 're at ? marketing: the the product or the project ? project manager: the the the well the i meant the product . marketing: um , well well my presentation just now ? project manager: yeah . marketing: sure , uh can i get the project manager: oh sorry yeah um , mm . industrial designer: project manager: mm . more loud clicks in the microphone . marketing: cheers . there we go , oh . method of evaluation testing the product was to just if it met all the criteria all the conditions that we set out to set out to solve , from the point of view of the the consumer and the management . so what i 've been asked to do is , on the whiteboard project manager: marketing: um gauge our team response to these questions . so , on a scale of one to seven , one being true and seven being being false . project manager: seven being a nice round number to work to . marketing: yeah . and then at the end just take an average project manager: tr on for true and seven for flase . yes . industrial designer: marketing: yes . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: so uh . so , look at these questions . is the device f flashy and fashionable ? project manager: well i think most definitely . industrial designer: yeah i 'd say definitely a one yeah . user interface: i think it is yeah . marketing: so uh and also uh technologically innovative ? project manager: yes the voice technology indeed . industrial designer: yeah , defi yeah , yeah user interface: yeah . marketing: easy to use ? project manager: i do n't see we could 've made it any easier . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: uh suitable for the consumer ? that was um project manager: totally . industrial designer: yeah definitely . user interface: yeah i think it made we met all of the consumer industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: wants . marketing: uh is it complicated ? project manager: no . user interface: no . marketing: doing pretty well so far are n't we ? uh functional ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah definitely . user interface: yeah . marketing: um . where are we ? project manager: found easily . yeah marketing: we 've b built in the the speech , where are you , function . project manager: i mean that 's that 's industrial designer: yeah . yeah . yeah , mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: uh-huh . industrial designer: project manager: does it take long to learn to use ? should n't . industrial designer: no , not at all . marketing: mm-hmm . and uh , what else ? the r_s_i_ compares to the current standards , project manager: less buttons so it must be . industrial designer: uh marketing: well . we we industrial designer: yeah marketing: uh yeah it was our it was a industrial designer: it is sorta the the handle more ergonomically correct as well . marketing: we made an actual effort to industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: so yeah , um um . marketing: um will device appeal to all age groups ? project manager: i think it will because i mean uh old older people who ca n't manage the buttons anyway will actually probably like the like like the voice bit so industrial designer: mm . user interface: i think so . marketing: yeah , industrial designer: mm . marketing: uh that 's a good call , yeah . well we had the we had the data saying that old people will be less likely to pay extra money but the funct the increased functionality , the e ease of use of the device might make up for that . project manager: and it 's it 's it 's industrial designer: mm . project manager: well i do n't think we 're actually charging a particular premium anyway , in the end , so industrial designer: i i i think it will tend to appeal more to younger aged groups marketing: mm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: just 'cause we have gone with the fashion focus project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and the younger people tend to would be more conscious of that aspect of it , but um i think it should still appeal on a certain level to everybody , yeah . project manager: it will appeal f for dif for different reasons but it 's it 's uh industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah i think just the simplicity of it project manager: yeah yeah industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: and project manager: so i i yeah i user interface: not having to learn to programme industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and not having you know a million buttons . project manager: yeah , so i think we can reasonably say it 's another another one , industrial designer: mm . marketing: project manager: why not ? industrial designer: user interface: marketing: uh can you just click the my mouse to move onto next page ? uh , yeah and what h did we make the management 's project manager: in in in in my interpretation of management 's instructions uh is that yes it it meets the requirement industrial designer: project manager: is t it 's television only , industrial designer: yep . project manager: it 's it 's simple to use , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: um it 's it 's it 's within budget , user interface: under the cost . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yep . project manager: um i it 's uh yes an an any minor points we we we argue . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: um . project manager: so uh i i think we 've done an amazing job industrial designer: yep . project manager: in uh industrial designer: well done us . user interface: marketing: okay . project manager: coming up with what marketing: so uh one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven . eleven divided by eleven 's one so equals average of one . industrial designer: user interface: yeah , . project manager: need a need a calculator for that . marketing: and that roughly concludes my evaluation of the of the product . project manager: okay , industrial designer: excellent . project manager: nick the cable back then . industrial designer: oh no user interface: i mixed up the colours a little bit . industrial designer: that 's user interface: i think i all wrong . project manager: ooh . right do um either of you want to uh say anything ? industrial designer: uh . project manager: mm . user interface: mm . project manager: before i uh industrial designer: user interface: ps i do n't think so , project manager: no . industrial designer: . user interface: i mean i think we worked well together project manager: yeah . user interface: and looked really at what the consumers wanted and what we were trying to make project manager: yeah . user interface: and you know , seemed to discuss things pretty well industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and come to group consensus and project manager: well that 's right , i mean th this this slide here i mean the satisfaction with uh room for creativity , i mean industrial designer: mm . yeah , definitely . project manager: i think we 've allowed ourselves uh as much creativity as the uh the the the product uh allows . user interface: yeah . project manager: um i wo n't comment on leadership , uh teamwork i think we 've uh i think everybody 's uh worked pretty well together . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: um we 've just about coped with the whiteboard and digital pens , uh i think the results speak for itself industrial designer: mm . project manager: and new ideas found , um , again gi no given relatively everyday product , i think we 've v very uh very effectively come up with a a new uh user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yep . project manager: uh a new approach . um are the costs within budget ? yes . is the project evaluated ? we 're we 're all happy that it it meets all the criteria , um industrial designer: yep . project manager: thank you very much indeed , i think that i think that 's uh industrial designer: cool , thank you , user interface: alright . project manager: i think we can go f for an early bath . user interface: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: project manager: so i call the meeting closed . user interface: okay . project manager: not sure how far ahead of schedule we were there .

project manager thought it would attract older people who could n't manage the buttons as they would probably prefer speech recognition . however , industrial designer believed it tended to appeal more to younger aged groups as the team had gone with the fashion focus but then proposed that it should still appeal on a certain level to everybody .

what did industrial designer think about the remote control in the discussion of its evaluation criteria ? </s> project manager: industrial designer: project manager: right well . welcome to the what should be the last of these meetings and uh it looks like we 've uh done a good job here and uh we 'll just go through the the final uh the final details . um okay , oh the um th the the minutes of the last meeting uh i think we 'll take those as read , um okay industrial designer: project manager: the um th the the next uh thing we we we 'll have a look at the uh th have a look at the prototypes and uh look at the uh evaluation criteria and finance and then uh uh just tidy up with production and um and then we can close . um so f if if you 'd like to uh present your your proposals . industrial designer: uh okay we basically have the same kinda lay-out here it 's just um you hold it like this and it gets kinda moulded to the to the shape of your hand , basically . um on the left we 've got the scroll for the volume , on the right we have buttons for the channels up and down and that kinda so you can hold it and scroll , or you can hold it and and push . project manager: industrial designer: uh this is the power key , um it 's kinda like the biggest so you know how to turn on . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: uh that 's the little menu key . this is the infra-red section so you g it 'll be sending rays and if you 're you know pointing it like that it can send it , project manager: yep , industrial designer: or if you hold it up like that it 'll send it . project manager: yeah , good , good . industrial designer: uh we got a microphone there which for all the voice commands project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: so you can you know talk to it like that project manager: yep , industrial designer: and it 'll still understand . project manager: right . industrial designer: um the logo is down down there um project manager: uh-huh . user interface: mm . industrial designer: and has the cover on it user interface: s industrial designer: and you can see like it just kinda goes the red bit 's the cover and it kinda goes over everything project manager: yep , yep , industrial designer: and then there 's holes for the buttons to come through . um . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and so we figured it would be kind of you know a light weight plastic , project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: mm . user interface: just kind of a light non-descript grey project manager: yep yep . user interface: so that people 'll wan na buy the covers project manager: yep . user interface: and then the covers will be that sort of rubbery material like they make ipod covers , project manager: showing me age , user interface: so they kinda just stretch over . industrial designer: mm . project manager: i do n't know what i c ipod covers are like . industrial designer: user interface: yeah , well project manager: yeah yeah . user interface: i i did n't know that but yeah they 're kind of it 's just kind of a rubbery project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and that way you know project manager: okay , user interface: spongy like is something that people wanted project manager: yep , right . user interface: and it just sort of stretches over industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and that way i think probably helps protect it a little bit too as well project manager: okay . industrial designer: but it 's also e e easier to put on versus like mobile covers user interface: and industrial designer: you actually have to screw them on and stuff and you kinda sometimes have to get someone to do that for you . this is very much you should be able to stretch it over yourself project manager: yep . user interface: just kinda stretch it over industrial designer: and it 'll be fine . project manager: okay , good yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and it 'll just stay on industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then the buttons come through and so and then the each one of 'em on the very end will have the logo with the yellow circle and the r_r_ . project manager: yep , right . industrial designer: li that 'll be the covers as well , yeah yeah . project manager: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: i mean tha it 's it 's a detailed point , i just wondered i mean h how will people put these down i wonder ? user interface: like that . project manager: right . okay for some strange re reason i had it in my mind that they 'd put them down vertically industrial designer: yeah it could stand , yeah . project manager: but uh uh user interface: oh . industrial designer: well we could broaden the broaden it out a bit project manager: yeah , uh no industrial designer: so it would stand like that . project manager: because particularly if they 've dif if they 're gon na have it as a you know as a fashion item industrial designer: yeah , standing . project manager: uh i mean it it 's uh it it 's just i mean it 's just a minor detailed point , but um as you say you can just make the base a little bit bigger and uh industrial designer: yeah , we could just widen it out uh project manager: yeah and uh it just needs another uh another logo somewhere is is is is all it gives gives people the option and if if say if they 've got them um industrial designer: mm . mm . project manager: because actually have several upon the uh marketing: could have one for your stereo , one for your d_v_ player . industrial designer: mm , yeah , yeah . project manager: yeah , well . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: have to if we just lengthen it i guess project manager: yeah industrial designer: so it comes down to the base of the hand user interface: yeah , project manager: but that that 's uh but uh user interface: just kind of industrial designer: and then flatten it out project manager: no industrial designer: and could sit there . project manager: the the the overall uh the overall concept is uh industrial designer: yeah , mm . user interface: or just make it little . project manager: yeah yeah , industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: somewhere like that project manager: no no , i mean that 's these uh user interface: so it just sort of industrial designer: we might have to lengthen it marketing: yeah i kinda had a a kinda a natural kind of a idea industrial designer: so it kinda your hand still holds it and have it there , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , yeah like that , like that . yeah . marketing: where it 's like more of a kind of like a kinda maybe slightly like thinner , user interface: bu project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah , kinda like that kinda like a flower or a plant project manager: but uh yeah but no th but the yeah the the the industrial designer: mm . marketing: for the more natural kinda user interface: . project manager: yeah , yeah , yeah , industrial designer: the final product would actually stand up , yeah . project manager: i mean it it 's uh would n't user interface: fall over . project manager: would n't do that , indeed yeah . but th th but th yeah th b the user interface: yeah . project manager: these were all minor minor uh minor details , industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think the uh the basic concept i i is is absolutely bang on industrial designer: yeah . user interface: . 's a little longer . project manager: and the i industrial designer: wee project manager: it certainly meets our criteria of being uh of you know looking different . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um , so user interface: yeah . project manager: good that 's that that 's excellent . industrial designer: project manager: um right let us um what 's on the next one ? oh right yes , let 's have a look at the um f finance . um , now we 're given a a clear design brief , uh if i get the uh spreadsheet up . oh . marketing: uh yeah , just click there . project manager: . marketing: uh the the maximise button . project manager: oh right . ah . good , this is why we need to make these things simple so that the uh the the the boss can understand . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: project manager: now i 've um this is the company 's uh uh costing for for various uh uh aspects of design and i i i 've treated some of these slightly uh liberally given the constraints placed on us , um i would n't know for in for instance if if they require us to have it in the corporate colours , then that is not a special colour , that 's a that 's a standard colour . uh , so we 're just simply on batteries , the the one th the one decision i 've had to make is that um we 're we will have to find a s a regular standard chip to to do this with and i i um i 'm i 'm i 'm certain that they they are around so , um that i do n't think is a a serious problem . the uh the the voice sensor is is expensive but we we made a a basic decision that that was absolutely fundamental to the to the design so that that has to stay . um then again the the the the shape of the case means that it 's it 's expensive to uh um l to make 'cause of the the th the double curves but on the other hand because of our overall fashion concept um we we should exceed the the sales targets . um it 's simply made of plastic so th that 's uh that 's no problem and uh um just because the whole the colour of the the whole thing that 's uh uh there 's some cost there . um and uh we have n't actually got a scroll wheel we we we got push buttons and and a simple uh um slider so um and the and the the buttons are uh uh well i do do n't know that they 're special colour . anyway the the costings uh come in at exactly on target at twelve point five uh but i thi i think we have a a very strong case to argue that uh what what we 've got is is so in innovative and uh and different that um any any slight compromise we have to make on on cost is is offset by the uh you know the uh you know the the the the concept of it being a a fashion accessory and and having the the interchangeable covers industrial designer: mm . project manager: so uh um you know the if if if the management expect us to be techno again fail again technologically innovative um that they they have to accept that we we ca n't operate absolutely within uh the constraints that they give , industrial designer: mm . project manager: so uh we we we present this as the uh the company 's uh the the company 's way forward and uh uh i i think we can argue that we we have uh come in on on budget . um . okay , uh . so um . does anybody want to uh uh andrew do you want what do you want to say about um the uh yeah the evaluation marketing: evaluation . project manager: where where you know well where where we 're where where we 're at ? marketing: the the product or the project ? project manager: the the the well the i meant the product . marketing: um , well well my presentation just now ? project manager: yeah . marketing: sure , uh can i get the project manager: oh sorry yeah um , mm . industrial designer: project manager: mm . more loud clicks in the microphone . marketing: cheers . there we go , oh . method of evaluation testing the product was to just if it met all the criteria all the conditions that we set out to set out to solve , from the point of view of the the consumer and the management . so what i 've been asked to do is , on the whiteboard project manager: marketing: um gauge our team response to these questions . so , on a scale of one to seven , one being true and seven being being false . project manager: seven being a nice round number to work to . marketing: yeah . and then at the end just take an average project manager: tr on for true and seven for flase . yes . industrial designer: marketing: yes . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: so uh . so , look at these questions . is the device f flashy and fashionable ? project manager: well i think most definitely . industrial designer: yeah i 'd say definitely a one yeah . user interface: i think it is yeah . marketing: so uh and also uh technologically innovative ? project manager: yes the voice technology indeed . industrial designer: yeah , defi yeah , yeah user interface: yeah . marketing: easy to use ? project manager: i do n't see we could 've made it any easier . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: uh suitable for the consumer ? that was um project manager: totally . industrial designer: yeah definitely . user interface: yeah i think it made we met all of the consumer industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: wants . marketing: uh is it complicated ? project manager: no . user interface: no . marketing: doing pretty well so far are n't we ? uh functional ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah definitely . user interface: yeah . marketing: um . where are we ? project manager: found easily . yeah marketing: we 've b built in the the speech , where are you , function . project manager: i mean that 's that 's industrial designer: yeah . yeah . yeah , mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: uh-huh . industrial designer: project manager: does it take long to learn to use ? should n't . industrial designer: no , not at all . marketing: mm-hmm . and uh , what else ? the r_s_i_ compares to the current standards , project manager: less buttons so it must be . industrial designer: uh marketing: well . we we industrial designer: yeah marketing: uh yeah it was our it was a industrial designer: it is sorta the the handle more ergonomically correct as well . marketing: we made an actual effort to industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: so yeah , um um . marketing: um will device appeal to all age groups ? project manager: i think it will because i mean uh old older people who ca n't manage the buttons anyway will actually probably like the like like the voice bit so industrial designer: mm . user interface: i think so . marketing: yeah , industrial designer: mm . marketing: uh that 's a good call , yeah . well we had the we had the data saying that old people will be less likely to pay extra money but the funct the increased functionality , the e ease of use of the device might make up for that . project manager: and it 's it 's it 's industrial designer: mm . project manager: well i do n't think we 're actually charging a particular premium anyway , in the end , so industrial designer: i i i think it will tend to appeal more to younger aged groups marketing: mm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: just 'cause we have gone with the fashion focus project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and the younger people tend to would be more conscious of that aspect of it , but um i think it should still appeal on a certain level to everybody , yeah . project manager: it will appeal f for dif for different reasons but it 's it 's uh industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah i think just the simplicity of it project manager: yeah yeah industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: and project manager: so i i yeah i user interface: not having to learn to programme industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and not having you know a million buttons . project manager: yeah , so i think we can reasonably say it 's another another one , industrial designer: mm . marketing: project manager: why not ? industrial designer: user interface: marketing: uh can you just click the my mouse to move onto next page ? uh , yeah and what h did we make the management 's project manager: in in in in my interpretation of management 's instructions uh is that yes it it meets the requirement industrial designer: project manager: is t it 's television only , industrial designer: yep . project manager: it 's it 's simple to use , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: um it 's it 's it 's within budget , user interface: under the cost . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yep . project manager: um i it 's uh yes an an any minor points we we we argue . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: um . project manager: so uh i i think we 've done an amazing job industrial designer: yep . project manager: in uh industrial designer: well done us . user interface: marketing: okay . project manager: coming up with what marketing: so uh one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven . eleven divided by eleven 's one so equals average of one . industrial designer: user interface: yeah , . project manager: need a need a calculator for that . marketing: and that roughly concludes my evaluation of the of the product . project manager: okay , industrial designer: excellent . project manager: nick the cable back then . industrial designer: oh no user interface: i mixed up the colours a little bit . industrial designer: that 's user interface: i think i all wrong . project manager: ooh . right do um either of you want to uh say anything ? industrial designer: uh . project manager: mm . user interface: mm . project manager: before i uh industrial designer: user interface: ps i do n't think so , project manager: no . industrial designer: . user interface: i mean i think we worked well together project manager: yeah . user interface: and looked really at what the consumers wanted and what we were trying to make project manager: yeah . user interface: and you know , seemed to discuss things pretty well industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and come to group consensus and project manager: well that 's right , i mean th this this slide here i mean the satisfaction with uh room for creativity , i mean industrial designer: mm . yeah , definitely . project manager: i think we 've allowed ourselves uh as much creativity as the uh the the the product uh allows . user interface: yeah . project manager: um i wo n't comment on leadership , uh teamwork i think we 've uh i think everybody 's uh worked pretty well together . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: um we 've just about coped with the whiteboard and digital pens , uh i think the results speak for itself industrial designer: mm . project manager: and new ideas found , um , again gi no given relatively everyday product , i think we 've v very uh very effectively come up with a a new uh user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yep . project manager: uh a new approach . um are the costs within budget ? yes . is the project evaluated ? we 're we 're all happy that it it meets all the criteria , um industrial designer: yep . project manager: thank you very much indeed , i think that i think that 's uh industrial designer: cool , thank you , user interface: alright . project manager: i think we can go f for an early bath . user interface: yeah . marketing: industrial designer: user interface: marketing: project manager: so i call the meeting closed . user interface: okay . project manager: not sure how far ahead of schedule we were there .

industrial designer agreed that the remote control should be fashionable , technologically innovative and suitable for customers and proposed that fewer buttons could make the handle more ergonomically correct .

summarize the meeting </s> grad a: hey , you 're not supposed to be drinking in here dude . grad d: ok . grad a: do we have to read them that slowly ? ok . sounded like a robot . um , this is t grad c: ok . grad a: when you read the numbers it kind of reminded me of beat poetry . grad d: i tried to go for the ee cummings sort of feeling , but grad a: three three six zero zero . four two zero zero one seven . that 's what i think of when i think of beat poetry . grad c: beat poetry . grad a: you ever seen `` so i married an axe murderer `` ? grad c: uh parts of it . grad d: mm - hmm . grad a: there 's a part wh there 's parts when he 's doing beat poetry . grad c: oh yeah ? grad a: and he talks like that . that 's why i thi that uh probably is why i think of it that way . grad d: hmm . no , i did n't see that movie . who did who made that ? grad a: mike meyers is the guy . grad d: oh . ok . grad a: it - it 's his uh it 's his cute romantic comedy . that 's that 's that 's his cute romantic comedy , yeah . the other thing that 's real funny , i 'll spoil it for you . is when he 's he works in a coffee shop , in san francisco , and uh he 's sitting there on this couch and they bring him this massive cup of espresso , and he 's like `` excuse me i ordered the large espresso ? `` grad d: uh . we 're having , a tiramisu tasting contest this weekend . grad a: wait do are y so you 're trying to decide who 's the best taster of tiramisu ? grad d: no ? um . there was a a a fierce argument that broke out over whose tiramisu might be the best and so we decided to have a contest where those people who claim to make good tiramisu make them , grad a: ah . grad d: and then we got a panel of impartial judges that will taste do a blind taste and then vote . grad a: hmm . grad d: should be fun . grad a: seems like seems like you could put a s magic special ingredient in , so that everyone know which one was yours . then , if you were to bribe them , you could uh grad d: mm - hmm . well , i was thinking if um y you guys have plans for sunday ? we 're we 're not it 's probably going to be this sunday , but um we 're sort of working with the weather here because we also want to combine it with some barbecue activity where we just fire it up and what whoever brings whatever you know , can throw it on there . so only the tiramisu is free , nothing else . grad a: well , i 'm going back to visit my parents this weekend , so , i 'll be out of town . grad d: so you 're going to the west bay then ? no , grad a: no , the south bay , grad d: south bay ? grad a: yeah . grad d: south bay . grad c: well , i should be free , so . grad d: ok , i 'll let you know . grad c: ok . grad a: we are . is nancy s uh gon na show up ? mmm . wonder if these things ever emit a very , like , piercing screech right in your ear ? grad d: they are gon na get more comfortable headsets . they already ordered them . ok . grad c: uh grad d: let 's get started . the uh should i go first , with the uh , um , data . can i have the remote control . thank you . ok . so . on friday we had our wizard test data test and um these are some of the results . this was the introduction . i actually uh , even though liz was uh kind enough to offer to be the first subject , i sort of felt that she knew too much , so i asked uh litonya . just on the spur of the moment , and she was uh kind enough to uh serve as the first subject . professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: so , this is what she saw as part of as uh for instr introduction , this is what she had to read aloud . uh , that was really difficult for her and uh grad c: because of l all the names , you mean ? grad d: the names and um this was the uh first three tasks she had to to master after she called the system , and um then of course the system broke down , and those were the l uh uh i should say the system was supposed to break down and then um these were the remaining three tasks that she was going to solve , with a human um . there are here are uh the results . mmm . and i will not we will skip the reading now . d um . and um . the reading was five minutes , exactly . and now comes the this is the phone - in phase of grad c: wait , can i i have a question . so . so there 's no system , right ? like , there was a wizard for both uh both parts , is this right ? grad d: yeah . it was bo it both times the same person . grad c: ok . grad d: one time , pretending to be a system , one time , to pretending to be a human , which is actually not pretending . grad c: ok . and she did n't grad d: i should grad c: i mean . well . is n't this kind of obvious when it says `` ok now you 're talking to a human `` and then the human has the same voice ? grad d: no no no . we u wait . ok , good question , but uh you you just wait and see . grad c: ok . grad d: it 's you 're gon na l learn . and um the wizard sometimes will not be audible , because she was actually they there was some uh lapse in the um wireless , we have to move her closer . grad a: is she mispronouncing `` anlage `` ? is it `` anlaga `` or `` anlunga `` grad d: they 're mispronouncing everything , grad a: ok . grad d: but it 's this is the system breaking down , actually . `` did i call europe ? `` so , this is it . well , if we we um professor b: so , are are you trying to record this meeting ? grad d: there was a strange reflex . i have a headache . i 'm really sort of out of it . ok , the uh lessons learned . the reading needs to be shorter . five minutes is just too long . um , that was already anticipated by some people suggested that if we just have bullets here , they 're gon na not they 're subjects are probably not gon na going to follow the order . and uh she did not . grad c: really ? grad d: she no . grad c: oh , it 's surprising . grad d: she she jumped around quite a bit . professor b: s so if you just number them `` one `` , `` two `` , `` three `` it 's grad d: yeah , and make it sort of clear in the uh professor b: ok . right . grad d: um . we need to so that 's one thing . and we need a better introduction for the wizard . that is something that fey actually thought of a in the last second that sh the system should introduce itself , when it 's called . professor b: mm - hmm . true . grad d: and um , um , another suggestion , by liz , was that we uh , through subjects , switch the tasks . so when when they have task - one with the computer , the next person should have task - one with a human , and so forth . professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: so we get nice um data for that . um , we have to refine the tasks more and more , which of course we have n't done at all , so far , in order to avoid this rephrasing , so where , even though w we do n't tell the person `` ask blah - blah - blah - blah - blah `` they still try , or at least litonya tried to um repeat as much of that text as possible . grad c: say exactly what 's on there ? yeah . grad d: and uh my suggestion is of course we we keep the wizard , because i think she did a wonderful job , professor b: great . grad d: in the sense that she responded quite nicely to things that were not asked for , `` how much is a t a bus ticket and a transfer `` so this is gon na happen all the time , we d you can never be sure . professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: um . johno pointed out that uh we have maybe a grammatical gender problem there with wizard . grad a: yes . grad d: so um . grad a: i was n't was n't sure whether wizard was the correct term for uh `` not a man `` . grad c: there 's no female equivalent of grad d: but uh grad a: are you sure ? grad c: no , i do n't know . professor b: right . grad c: not that i know of . grad d: well , there is witch and warlock , grad a: yeah , that 's so @ @ . professor b: right . grad c: yeah , that 's what i was thinking , but grad d: and uh professor b: right . uh . grad d: ok . and um so , some some work needs to be done , but i think we can uh and this , and in case no you had n't seen it , this is what litonya looked at during the uh um while taking the while partaking in the data collection . grad c: ah . professor b: ok , great . so first of all , i agree that um we should hire fey , and start paying her . probably pay for the time she 's put in as well . um , do you know exactly how to do that , or is uh lila i mean , you know what exactly do we do to to put her on the payroll in some way ? grad d: i 'm completely clueless , but i 'm willing to learn . professor b: ok . well , you 'll have to . right . so anyway , um grad d: n professor b: so why do n't you uh ask lila and see what she says about you know exactly what we do for someone in th grad d: student - type worker , professor b: well , yeah she 's un she 's not a a student , grad d: or ? professor b: she just graduated but anyway . grad d: hmm . professor b: so i if yeah , i agree , she sounded fine , she a actually was uh , more uh , present and stuff than than she was in conversation , so she did a better job than i would have guessed from just talking to her . grad d: yeah . professor b: so i think that 's great . grad d: this is sort of what i gave her , so this is for example h how to get to the student prison , professor b: yeah . grad d: and i did n't even spell it out here and in some cases i i spelled it out a little bit um more thoroughly , professor b: right . grad d: this is the information on on the low sunken castle , and the amphitheater that never came up , and um , so i if we give her even more um , instruments to work with i think the results are gon na be even better . professor b: oh , yeah , and then of course as she does it she 'll she 'll learn @ @ . so that 's great . um and also if she 's willing to take on the job of organizing all those subjects and stuff that would be wonderful . grad d: mmm . professor b: and , uh she 's actually she 's going to graduate school in a kind of an experimental paradigm , so i think this is all just fine in terms of h her learning things she 's gon na need to know uh , to do her career . grad d: mmm . professor b: so , i my guess is she 'll be r r quite happy to take on that job . and , so grad d: yep . yeah she she did n't explicitly state that so . professor b: great . grad d: and um i told her that we gon na um figure out a meeting time in the near future to refine the tasks and s look for the potential sources to find people . she also agrees that you know if it 's all just gon na be students the data is gon na be less valuable because of that so . professor b: well , as i say there is this s set of people next door , it 's not hard to grad d: we 're already yeah . professor b: uh grad d: however , we may run into a problem with a reading task there . and um , we 'll see . professor b: yeah . we could talk to the people who run it and um see if they have a way that they could easily uh tell people that there 's a task , pays ten bucks or something , grad d: mm - hmm . yeah . professor b: but um you have to be comfortable reading relatively complicated stuff . and and there 'll probably be self - selection to some extent . grad d: mmm . yep . professor b: uh , so that 's good . um . now , i signed us up for the wednesday slot , and part of what we should do is this . grad d: ok . professor b: so , my idea on that was uh , partly we 'll talk about system stuff for the computer scientists , but partly i did want it to get the linguists involved in some of this issue about what the task is and all um you know , what the dialogue is , and what 's going on linguistically , because to the extent that we can get them contributing , that will be good . so this issue about you know re - formulating things , grad d: yep . professor b: maybe we can get some of the linguists sufficiently interested that they 'll help us with it , uh , other linguists , if you 're a linguist , but in any case , grad d: yep . professor b: um , the linguistics students and stuff . so my idea on on wednesday is partly to uh you i mean , what you did today would i is just fine . you just uh do `` this is what we did , and here 's the thing , and here 's s some of the dialogue and and so forth . `` but then , the other thing of course is we should um give the computer scientists some idea of of what 's going on with the system design , and where we think the belief - nets fit in and where the pieces are and stuff like that . is is this make sense to everybody ? grad d: yep . professor b: yeah . so , i do n't i do n't think it 's worth a lot of work , particularly on your part , to to to make a big presentation . i do n't think you should you do n't have to make any new uh powerpoint or anything . i think we got plenty of stuff to talk about . and , then um just see how a discussion goes . grad d: mm - hmm . sounds good . the uh other two things is um we 've can have johno tell us a little about this professor b: great . grad d: and we also have a l little bit on the interface , m - three - l enhancement , and then um that was it , i think . grad a: so , what i did for this this is uh , a pedagogical belief - net because i was i i took i tried to conceptually do what you were talking about with the nodes that you could expand out so what i did was i took i made these dummy nodes called trajector - in and trajector - out that would isolate the things related to the trajector . professor b: yep . grad a: and then there were the things with the source and the path and the goal . professor b: yep . grad a: and i separated them out . and then i um did similar things for our our net to uh with the context and the discourse and whatnot , um , so we could sort of isolate them or whatever in terms of the the top layer . professor b: mm - hmm . grad a: and then the bottom layer is just the mode . so . professor b: so , let 's let 's yeah , i do n't understand it . let 's go slide all the way up so we see what the p the p very bottom looks like , or is that it ? grad a: yeah , there 's just one more node and it says `` mode `` which is the decision between the grad d: yeah . professor b: ok , great . alright . grad a: so basically all i did was i took the last belief - net professor b: so mm - hmm . grad a: and i grouped things according to what how i thought they would fit in to uh image schemas that would be related . and the two that i came up with were trajector - landmark and then source - path - goal as initial ones . professor b: yep . mm - hmm . grad a: and then i said well , uh the trajector would be the person in this case probably . professor b: right , yep . grad a: um , you know , we have we have the concept of what their intention was , whether they were trying to tour or do business or whatever , professor b: right . grad a: or they were hurried . that 's kind of related to that . and then um in terms of the source , the things uh the only things that we had on there i believe were whether oh actually , i kind of , i might have added these cuz i do n't think we talked too much about the source in the old one but uh whether the where i 'm currently at is a landmark might have a bearing on whether grad d: mm - hmm . grad a: or the `` landmark - iness `` of where i 'm currently at . and `` usefulness `` is basi basically means is that an institutional facility like a town hall or something like that that 's not something that you 'd visit for tourist 's tourism 's sake or whatever . `` travel constraints `` would be something like you know , maybe they said they can they only wan na take a bus or something like that , right ? and then those are somewhat related to the path , professor b: mm - hmm . grad a: so that would determine whether we 'd could take we would be telling them to go to the bus stop or versus walking there directly . um , `` goal `` . similar things as the source except they also added whether the entity was closed and whether they have somehow marked that is was the final destination . um , and then if you go up , robert , yeah , so um , in terms of context , what we had currently said was whether they were a businessman or a tourist of some other person . um , discourse was related to whether they had asked about open hours or whether they asked about where the entrance was or the admission fee , or something along those lines . professor b: mm - hmm . grad a: uh , prosody i do n't really i 'm not really sure what prosody means , in this context , so i just made up you know whether whether what they say is or h how they say it is is that . professor b: right , ok . grad a: um , the parse would be what verb they chose , and then maybe how they modified it , in the sense of whether they said `` i need to get there quickly `` or whatever . professor b: mm - hmm . grad a: and um , in terms of world knowledge , this would just basically be like opening and closing times of things , the time of day it is , and whatnot . grad d: what 's `` tourbook `` ? grad a: tourbook ? that would be , i do n't know , the `` landmark - iness `` of things , grad d: mm - hmm . grad a: whether it 's in the tourbook or not . professor b: ch - ch - ch - ch . now . alright , so i understand what 's what you got . i do n't yet understand how you would use it . so let me see if i can ask grad a: well , this is not a working bayes - net . professor b: a s right . no , i understand that , but but um so , what let 's slide back up again and see start at the at the bottom and oop - bo - doop - boop - boop . yeah . so , you could imagine w uh , go ahead , you were about to go up there and point to something . grad a: well i ok , i just say what you were gon na say . professor b: good , do it ! grad a: ok . professor b: no no , go do it . grad a: uh i i 'd no , i was gon na wait until professor b: oh , ok . so , so if you if we made if we wanted to make it into a a real uh bayes - net , that is , you know , with fill you know , actually f uh , fill it @ @ in , then uh grad a: so we 'd have to get rid of this and connect these things directly to the mode . professor b: well , i do n't that 's an issue . so , um grad a: cuz i do n't understand how it would work otherwise . professor b: well , here 's the problem . and and uh bhaskara and i was talking about this a little earlier today is , if we just do this , we could wind up with a huge uh , combinatoric input to the mode thing . and uh grad a: well i oh yeah , i unders i understand that , i just uh it 's hard for me to imagine how he could get around that . professor b: well , i but that 's what we have to do . grad a: ok . professor b: ok , so , so , uh . there there are a variety of ways of doing it . uh . let me just mention something that i do n't want to pursue today which is there are technical ways of doing it , uh i i slipped a paper to bhaskara and about noisy - or 's and noisy - maxes and there 're ways to uh sort of back off on the purity of your bayes - net - edness . grad a: mmm . professor b: uh , so . if you co you could ima and i now i do n't know that any of those actually apply in this case , but there is some technology you could try to apply . grad a: so it 's possible that we could do something like a summary node of some sort that ok . professor b: yeah . yeah . and , um so . grad a: so in that case , the sum we 'd have we i mean , these would n't be the summary nodes . we 'd have the summary nodes like where the things were i guess maybe if thi if things were related to business or some other professor b: yeah . grad a: yeah . professor b: so what i was gon na say is is maybe a good at this point is to try to informally i mean , not necessarily in th in this meeting , but to try to informally think about what the decision variables are . so , if you have some bottom line uh decision about which mode , you know , what are the most relevant things . grad a: mmm . professor b: and the other trick , which is not a technical trick , it 's kind of a knowledge engineering trick , is to make the n each node sufficiently narrow that you do n't get this combinatorics . so that if you decided that you could characterize the decision as a trade - off between three factors , whatever they may be , ok ? then you could say `` aha , let 's have these three factors `` , ok ? and maybe a binary version f for each , or some relatively compact decision node just above the final one . grad a: mmm . professor b: and then the question would be if if those are the things that you care about , uh can you make a relatively compact way of getting from the various inputs to the things you care about . so that y so that , you know , you can sort of try to do a knowledge engineering thing grad a: ok . professor b: given that we 're not gon na screw with the technology and just always use uh sort of orthodox bayes - nets , then we have a knowledge engineering little problem of how do we do that . um and grad a: so what i kind of need to do is to take this one and the old one and merge them together ? professor b: `` eh - eh - eh . `` yeah . grad a: so that professor b: well , mmm , something . i mean , so uh , robert has thought about this problem f for a long time , cuz he 's had these examples kicking around , so he may have some good intuition about you know , what are the crucial things . grad a: mmm . professor b: and , um , i understand where this the uh this is a way of playing with this abs source - path - goal trajector exp uh uh abstraction and and sort of sh displaying it in a particular way . grad a: yeah . professor b: uh , i do n't think our friends uh on wednesday are going to be able to well , maybe they will . well , let me think about whether whether i think we can present this to them or not . um , uh , grad d: well , i think this is still , i mean , ad - hoc . this is sort of th the second version and i i i look at this maybe just as a , you know , a a whatever , uml diagram or , you know , as just a uh screen shot , not really as a bayes - net as john johno said . grad a: we could actually , y yeah draw it in a different way , in the sense that it would make it more abstract . grad d: yeah . but the uh the the nice thing is that you know , it just is a is a visual aid for thinking about these things which has comple clearly have to be specified m more carefully professor b: alright , well , le let me think about this some more , grad d: and uh professor b: and uh see if we can find a way to present this to this linguists group that that is helpful to them . grad d: i mean , ultimately we we may w w we regard this as sort of an exercise in in thinking about the problem and maybe a first version of uh a module , if you wan na call it that , that you can ask , that you can give input and it it 'll uh throw the dice for you , uh throw the die for you , because um i integrated this into the existing smartkom system in in the same way as much the same way we can um sort of have this uh this thing . close this down . so if this is what m - three - l um will look like and what it 'll give us , um and a very simple thing . we have an action that he wants to go from somewhere , which is some type of object , to someplace . professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: and this these uh this changed now only um , um it 's doing it twice now because it already did it once . um , we 'll add some action type , which in this case is `` approach `` and could be , you know , more refined uh in many ways . professor b: mm - hmm . good . grad d: or we can uh have something where the uh goal is a public place and it will give us then of course an action type of the type `` enter `` . so this is just based on this one um , on this one feature , and that 's that 's about all you can do . and so in the f if this pla if the object type um here is is a m is a landmark , of course it 'll be um `` vista `` . and um this is about as much as we can do if we do n't w if we want to avoid uh uh a huge combinatorial explosion where we specify `` ok , if it 's this and this but that is not the case `` , and so forth , it just gets really really messy . professor b: ok , i 'm sorry . you 're you 're grad d: hmm ? professor b: it was much too quick for me . ok , so let me see if i understand what you 're saying . so , i i do understand that uh you can take the m - three - l and add not and it w and you need to do this , for sure , we have to add , you know , not too much about um object types and stuff , and what i think you did is add some rules of the style that are already there that say `` if it 's of type `` landmark `` , then you take you 're gon na take a picture of it . `` grad d: exactly . professor b: f full stop , i mean , that 's what you do . ev - every landmark you take a picture of , grad d: every public place you enter , and statue you want to go as near as possible . professor b: you enter you approach . ok . uh , and certainly you can add rules like that to the existing smartkom system . and you just did , right ? ok . grad d: yeah . and it it would do us no good . professor b: ah . grad d: that ultimately . professor b: well . so , s well , and let 's think about this . grad d: w professor b: um , that 's a that 's another kind of baseline case , that 's another sort of thing `` ok , here 's a another kind of minimal uh way of tackling this `` . add extra properties , a deterministic rule for every property you have an action , `` pppt ! `` you do that . um , then the question would be uh now , if that 's all you 're doing , then you can get the types from the ontology , ok ? because that 's all you 're all you 're using is this type the types in the ontology and you 're done . grad d: hmm ? professor b: right ? so we do n't we do n't use the discourse , we do n't use the context , we do n't do any of those things . grad d: no . professor b: alright , but that 's but that 's ok , and i mean it it 's again a kind of one minimal extension of the existing things . and that 's something the uh smartkom people themselves would they 'd say `` sure , that 's no problem you know , no problem to add types to the ont `` right ? grad d: yeah . no . and this is just in order to exemplify what what we can do very , very easily is , um we have this this silly uh interface and we have the rules that are as banal as of we just saw , and we have our content . professor b: hmm . grad d: now , the content i whi which is sort of what what we see here , which is sort of the vista , schema , source , path , goal , whatever . professor b: yeah . yeah . grad d: this will um be um a job to find ways of writing down image schema , x - schema , constructions , in some some form , and have this be in a in a in the content , loosely called `` constructicon `` . and the rules we want to throw away completely . and um and here is exactly where what 's gon na be replaced with our bayes - net , which is exactly getting the input feeding into here . this decides whether it 's an whether action the the enter , the vista , or the whatever professor b: uh , `` approach `` , you called it , i think this time . grad d: uh approach um construction should be activated , ie just pasted in . professor b: that 's what you said yeah , that 's fine . yeah , but right . but it 's not construction there , it 's action . construction is a d is a different story . grad d: yeah . grad a: right . this is uh so what we 'd be generating would be a reference to a semantic uh like parameters for the for the x - schema ? professor b: for for for yes . grad a: ok . professor b: yeah . so that that uh i if you had the generalized `` go `` x - schema and you wanted to specialize it to these three ones , then you would have to supply the parameters . grad a: right . professor b: and then uh , although we have n't worried about this yet , you might wan na worry about something that would go to the gis and use that to actually get you know , detailed route planning . so , you know , where do you do take a picture of it and stuff like that . grad a: mm - hmm . professor b: but that 's not it 's not the immediate problem . grad a: right . professor b: but , presumably that that that functionality 's there when when we grad a: so the immediate problem is just deciding w which grad d: aspects of the x - schema to add . professor b: yeah , so the pro the immediate problem is is back t t to what you were what you are doing with the belief - net . grad a: yeah . professor b: you know , uh what are we going to use to make this decision grad a: right and then , once we 've made the decision , how do we put that into the content ? professor b: yeah . right . right . well , that that actually is relatively easy in this case . grad a: ok . professor b: the harder problem is we decide what we want to use , how are we gon na get it ? and that the the that 's the hardest problem . so , the hardest problem is how are you going to get this information from some combination of the what the person says and the context and the ontology . the h so , i think that 's the hardest problem at the moment is is grad a: ok . professor b: where are you gon na how are you gon na g get this information . um , and that 's so , getting back to here , uh , we have a d a technical problem with the belief - nets that we we do n't want all the com grad a: there 's just too many factors right now . professor b: too many factors if we if we allow them to just go combinatorially . grad a: right . professor b: so we wan na think about which ones we really care about and what they really most depend on , and can we c you know , clean this this up to the point where it grad a: so what we really wan na do i cuz this is really just the three layer net , we wan na b make it expand it out into more layers basically ? professor b: right . we might . uh , i mean that that 's certainly one thing we can do . uh , it 's true that the way you have this , a lot of the times you have what you 're having is the values rather than the variable . so uh grad a: right . so instead of in instead it should really be just be `` intention `` as a node instead of `` intention business `` or `` intention tour `` . professor b: ok ? so you yeah , right , and then it would have values , uh , `` tour `` , `` business `` , or uh `` hurried `` . grad a: right . professor b: but then but i it still some knowledge design to do , about i how do you wan na break this up , what really matters . grad a: right . professor b: i mean , it 's fine . you know , we have to it 's it 's iterative . we 're gon na have to work with it some . grad a: i think what was going through my mind when i did it was someone could both have a business intention and a touring intention and the probabilities of both of them happening at the same time professor b: well , you you could do that . and it 's perfectly ok to uh insist that that , you know , th um , they add up to one , but that there 's uh that that it does n't have to be one zero zero . grad a: mmm . ok . professor b: ok . so you could have the conditional p so the each of these things is gon na be a a a probability . so whenever there 's a choice , uh so like landmark - ness and usefulness , grad a: well , see i do n't think those would be mutually professor b: ok grad a: it seems like something could both be professor b: absolutely right . grad a: ok . professor b: and so that you might want to then have those b th - then they may have to be separate . they may not be able to be values of the same variable . grad d: object type , mm - hmm . professor b: so that 's but again , this is this is the sort of knowledge design you have to go through . right . it 's you know , it 's great is is , you know , as one step toward uh toward where we wan na go . grad d: also it strikes me that we we m may want to approach the point where we can sort of try to find a uh , a specification for some interface , here that um takes the normal m - three - l , looks at it . then we discussed in our pre - edu edu meeting um how to ask the ontology , what to ask the ontology um the fact that we can pretend we have one , make a dummy until we get the real one , and so um we we may wan na decide we can do this from here , but we also could do it um you know if we have a a a belief - net interface . so the belief - net takes as input , a vector , right ? of stuff . and it yeah . and um it output is whatever , as well . but this information is just m - three - l , and then we want to look up some more stuff in the ontology and we want to look up some more stuff in the maybe we want to ask the real world , maybe you want to look something up in the grs , but also we definitely want to look up in the dialogue history um some s some stuff . based on we we have uh i was just made some examples from the ontology and so we have for example some information there that the town hall is both a a a building and it has doors and stuff like this , but it is also an institution , so it has a mayor and so forth and so forth and we get relations out of it and once we have them , we can use that information to look in the dialogue history , `` were any of these things that that are part of the town hall as an institution mentioned ? `` , professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: `` were any of these that make the town hall a building mentioned ? `` , grad c: right . grad d: and so forth , and maybe draw some inferences on that . so this may be a a sort of a process of two to three steps before we get our vector , that we feed into the belief - net , professor b: yeah . i think that 's i think that 's exactly right . grad d: and then professor b: there will be rules , but they are n't rules that come to final decisions , they 're rules that gather information for a decision process . yeah , grad d: yeah . professor b: no i think that 's that 's just fine . uh , yeah . so they 'll they presumably there 'll be a thread or process or something that `` agent `` , yeah , `` agent `` , whatever you wan wan na say , yeah , that uh is rule - driven , and can can uh can do things like that . and um there 's an issue about whether there will be that 'll be the same agent and the one that then goes off and uh carries out the decision , so it probably will . my guess is it 'll be the same basic agent that um can go off and get information , run it through a a c this belief - net that turn a crank in the belief - net , that 'll come out with s uh more another vector , ok , which can then be uh applied at what we would call the simulation or action end . so you now know what you 're gon na do and that may actually involve getting more information . so on once you pull that out , it could be that that says `` ah ! now that we know that we gon na go ask the ontology something else . `` ok ? now that we know that it 's a bus trip , ok ? we did n't we did n't need to know beforehand , uh how long the bus trip takes or whatever , but but now that we know that 's the way it 's coming out then we got ta go find out more . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: so i think that 's ok . grad d: mm - hmm . so this is actually , s if if we were to build something that is um , and , uh , i had one more thing , the it needs to do yeah . i think we i i can come up with a a code for a module that we call the `` cognitive dispatcher `` , which does nothing , professor b: ok . grad d: but it looks of complect object trees and decides how are there parts missing that need to be filled out , there 's this is maybe something that this module can do , something that this module can do and then collect uh sub - objects and then recombine them and put them together . so maybe this is actually some some useful tool that we can use to rewrite it , and uh get this part , professor b: oh , ok . uh . grad d: then . yeah . professor b: i confess , i 'm still not completely comfortable with the overall story . um . i i this this is not a complaint , this is a promise to do more work . so i 'm gon na hafta think about it some more . um . in particular see what we 'd like to do , and and this has been implicit in the discussion , is to do this in such a way that you get a lot of re - use . so . what you 're trying to get out of this deep co cognitive linguistics is the fact that w if you know about source source , paths and goals , and nnn { comment } all this sort of stuff , that a lot of this is the same , for different tasks . and that uh there 's there 's some some important generalities that you 're getting , so that you do n't take each and every one of these tasks and hafta re - do it . and i do n't yet see how that goes . alright . grad d: there 're no primitives upon which uh professor b: u u what are the primitives , and how do you break this grad d: yeah . professor b: so i y i 'm just just there saying eee { comment } well you i know how to do any individual case , right ? but i do n't yet see what 's the really interesting question is can you use uh deep uh cognitive linguistics to get powerful generalizations . and grad d: yep . professor b: um grad d: maybe we sho should we a add then the `` what 's this ? `` domain ? n i mean , we have to `` how do i get to x `` . then we also have the `` what 's this ? `` domain , where we get some slightly different professor b: could . uh . grad c: right . grad d: um johno , actually , does not allow us to call them `` intentions `` anymore . professor b: yeah . grad d: so he he dislikes the term . professor b: well , i i do n't like the term either , so i have n i uh i i y w i i it uh grad d: but um , i 'm sure the `` what 's this ? `` questions also create some interesting x - schema aspects . professor b: could be . i 'm not a i 'm not op particularly opposed to adding that or any other task , grad d: so . professor b: i mean , eventually we 're gon na want a whole range of them . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: uh , grad c: that 's right . professor b: i 'm just saying that i 'm gon na hafta do some sort of first principles thinking about this . i just at the moment do n't know . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: h no . well , no the bayes the bayes - nets the bayes - nets will be dec specific for each decision . but what i 'd like to be able to do is to have the way that you extract properties , that will go into different bayes - nets , be the uh general . so that if you have sources , you have trajectors and stuff like that , and there 's a language for talking about trajectors , you should n't have to do that differently for uh uh going to something , than for circling it , for uh telling someone else how to go there , grad d: getting out of professor b: whatever it is . so that that , the the decision processes are gon na be different what you 'd really like of course is the same thing you 'd always like which is that you have um a kind of intermediate representation which looks the same o over a bunch of inputs and a bunch of outputs . so all sorts of different tasks and all sorts of different ways of expressing them use a lot of the same mechanism for pulling out what are the fundamental things going on . and that 's that would be the really pretty result . and pushing it one step further , when you get to construction grammar and stuff , what you 'd like to be able to do is say you have this parser which is much fancier than the parser that comes with uh smartkom , i that that actually uses constructions and is able to tell from this construction that there 's uh something about the intent you know , the actual what people wan na do or what they 're referring to and stuff , in independent of whether it about what is this or where is it or something , that you could tell from the construction , you could pull out deep semantic information which you 're gon na use in a general way . so that 's the you might . you might . you might be able to to uh say that this i this is the kind of construction in which the there 's let 's say there 's a uh cont there the the land the construction implies the there 's a con this thing is being viewed as a container . ok . so just from this local construction you know that you 're gon na hafta treat it as a container you might as well go off and get that information . and that may effect the way you process everything else . so if you say `` how do i get into the castle `` ok , then um or , you know , `` what is there in the castle `` or so there 's all sorts of things you might ask that involve the castle as a container and you 'd like to have this orthogonal so that anytime the castle 's referred to as a container , you crank up the appropriate stuff . independent of what the goal is , and independent of what the surrounding language is . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: alright , so that 's that 's the that 's the thesis level grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: uh grad d: it 's unfortunate also that english has sort of got rid of most of its spatial adverbs because they 're really fancy then , in in for these kinds of analysis . but uh . professor b: well , you have prepositional phrases that grad d: yeah , but they 're they 're easier for parsers . professor b: right . grad d: parsers can pick those up but but the with the spatial adverbs , they have a tough time . because the mean the semantics are very complex in that . professor b: right . grad d: ok , yeah ? i had one more thing . i do n't remember . i just forgot it again . no . oh yeah , b but an architecture like this would also enable us maybe to to throw this away and and replace it with something else , or whatever , so that we have so that this is sort of the representational formats we 're we 're we 're talking about that are independent of the problem , that generalize over those problems , and are oh , t of a higher quality than an any actual whatever um belief - net , or `` x `` that we may use for the decision making , ultimately . should be decoupled , yeah . ok . professor b: right . so , are we gon na be meeting here from now on ? i 'm i 'm happy to do that . we we had talked about it , cuz you have th th the display and everything , that seems fine . grad d: yeah , um , liz also asks whether we 're gon na have presentations every time . i do n't think we will need to do that but it 's professor b: right . grad d: so far i think it was nice as a visual aid for some things and and professor b: oh yeah . no i i think it 's worth it to ass to meet here to bring this , and assume that something may come up that we wan na look at . grad d: yeah . professor b: i mean . why not . grad d: and um . yeah , that was my professor b: she was good . litonya was good . grad d: yeah ? the uh um , she w she was definitely good in the sense that she she showed us some of the weaknesses professor b: right . grad d: and um also the um the fact that she was a real subject you know , is is professor b: right . yeah , and and and yeah and and she took it seriously and stuff l no , it was great . grad d: yeah . professor b: yeah . grad d: so i think that um i mean , w looking just looking at this data , listening to it , what can we get out of it in terms of our problem , for example , is , you know , she actually m said you know , she never s just spoke about entering , she just wanted to get someplace , and she said for buying stuff . nuh ? so this is definitely interesting , and grad c: yeah , right . grad d: um , and in the other case , where she wanted to look at the stuff at the graffiti , also , of course , not in the sentence `` how do you get there ? `` was pretty standard . nuh ? except that there was a nice anaphora , you know , for pointing at what she talked about before , and there she was talking about looking at pictures that are painted inside a wall on walls , so grad c: right . grad d: actually , you 'd need a lot of world knowledge . this would have been a classical um uh `` tango `` , actually . um , because graffiti is usually found on the outside and not on the inside , grad c: yeah . grad d: but ok . so the mistake { comment } would have make a mistake the system would have made a mistake here . grad c: yep . professor b: click ? alright .

the team began the meeting by discussing the logistics of setting up the interface for data collection . some members ran a trial of it earlier and found someone who would make a suitable wizard . the team shared concern about how they would recruit non-university student participants . grad d introduced the team to the second iteration of the bayes-net model and its schemas . then , the discussion moved onto controlling the size of the bayes-net as it would otherwise be based on too much information . the team ended the meeting by delving into how the method of creating a bayes-net in different scenarios could itself be abstracted , i.e . narrowing the input and output factors and the intermediate representation .

summarize the details about setting up the wizard and recruiting participants </s> grad a: hey , you 're not supposed to be drinking in here dude . grad d: ok . grad a: do we have to read them that slowly ? ok . sounded like a robot . um , this is t grad c: ok . grad a: when you read the numbers it kind of reminded me of beat poetry . grad d: i tried to go for the ee cummings sort of feeling , but grad a: three three six zero zero . four two zero zero one seven . that 's what i think of when i think of beat poetry . grad c: beat poetry . grad a: you ever seen `` so i married an axe murderer `` ? grad c: uh parts of it . grad d: mm - hmm . grad a: there 's a part wh there 's parts when he 's doing beat poetry . grad c: oh yeah ? grad a: and he talks like that . that 's why i thi that uh probably is why i think of it that way . grad d: hmm . no , i did n't see that movie . who did who made that ? grad a: mike meyers is the guy . grad d: oh . ok . grad a: it - it 's his uh it 's his cute romantic comedy . that 's that 's that 's his cute romantic comedy , yeah . the other thing that 's real funny , i 'll spoil it for you . is when he 's he works in a coffee shop , in san francisco , and uh he 's sitting there on this couch and they bring him this massive cup of espresso , and he 's like `` excuse me i ordered the large espresso ? `` grad d: uh . we 're having , a tiramisu tasting contest this weekend . grad a: wait do are y so you 're trying to decide who 's the best taster of tiramisu ? grad d: no ? um . there was a a a fierce argument that broke out over whose tiramisu might be the best and so we decided to have a contest where those people who claim to make good tiramisu make them , grad a: ah . grad d: and then we got a panel of impartial judges that will taste do a blind taste and then vote . grad a: hmm . grad d: should be fun . grad a: seems like seems like you could put a s magic special ingredient in , so that everyone know which one was yours . then , if you were to bribe them , you could uh grad d: mm - hmm . well , i was thinking if um y you guys have plans for sunday ? we 're we 're not it 's probably going to be this sunday , but um we 're sort of working with the weather here because we also want to combine it with some barbecue activity where we just fire it up and what whoever brings whatever you know , can throw it on there . so only the tiramisu is free , nothing else . grad a: well , i 'm going back to visit my parents this weekend , so , i 'll be out of town . grad d: so you 're going to the west bay then ? no , grad a: no , the south bay , grad d: south bay ? grad a: yeah . grad d: south bay . grad c: well , i should be free , so . grad d: ok , i 'll let you know . grad c: ok . grad a: we are . is nancy s uh gon na show up ? mmm . wonder if these things ever emit a very , like , piercing screech right in your ear ? grad d: they are gon na get more comfortable headsets . they already ordered them . ok . grad c: uh grad d: let 's get started . the uh should i go first , with the uh , um , data . can i have the remote control . thank you . ok . so . on friday we had our wizard test data test and um these are some of the results . this was the introduction . i actually uh , even though liz was uh kind enough to offer to be the first subject , i sort of felt that she knew too much , so i asked uh litonya . just on the spur of the moment , and she was uh kind enough to uh serve as the first subject . professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: so , this is what she saw as part of as uh for instr introduction , this is what she had to read aloud . uh , that was really difficult for her and uh grad c: because of l all the names , you mean ? grad d: the names and um this was the uh first three tasks she had to to master after she called the system , and um then of course the system broke down , and those were the l uh uh i should say the system was supposed to break down and then um these were the remaining three tasks that she was going to solve , with a human um . there are here are uh the results . mmm . and i will not we will skip the reading now . d um . and um . the reading was five minutes , exactly . and now comes the this is the phone - in phase of grad c: wait , can i i have a question . so . so there 's no system , right ? like , there was a wizard for both uh both parts , is this right ? grad d: yeah . it was bo it both times the same person . grad c: ok . grad d: one time , pretending to be a system , one time , to pretending to be a human , which is actually not pretending . grad c: ok . and she did n't grad d: i should grad c: i mean . well . is n't this kind of obvious when it says `` ok now you 're talking to a human `` and then the human has the same voice ? grad d: no no no . we u wait . ok , good question , but uh you you just wait and see . grad c: ok . grad d: it 's you 're gon na l learn . and um the wizard sometimes will not be audible , because she was actually they there was some uh lapse in the um wireless , we have to move her closer . grad a: is she mispronouncing `` anlage `` ? is it `` anlaga `` or `` anlunga `` grad d: they 're mispronouncing everything , grad a: ok . grad d: but it 's this is the system breaking down , actually . `` did i call europe ? `` so , this is it . well , if we we um professor b: so , are are you trying to record this meeting ? grad d: there was a strange reflex . i have a headache . i 'm really sort of out of it . ok , the uh lessons learned . the reading needs to be shorter . five minutes is just too long . um , that was already anticipated by some people suggested that if we just have bullets here , they 're gon na not they 're subjects are probably not gon na going to follow the order . and uh she did not . grad c: really ? grad d: she no . grad c: oh , it 's surprising . grad d: she she jumped around quite a bit . professor b: s so if you just number them `` one `` , `` two `` , `` three `` it 's grad d: yeah , and make it sort of clear in the uh professor b: ok . right . grad d: um . we need to so that 's one thing . and we need a better introduction for the wizard . that is something that fey actually thought of a in the last second that sh the system should introduce itself , when it 's called . professor b: mm - hmm . true . grad d: and um , um , another suggestion , by liz , was that we uh , through subjects , switch the tasks . so when when they have task - one with the computer , the next person should have task - one with a human , and so forth . professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: so we get nice um data for that . um , we have to refine the tasks more and more , which of course we have n't done at all , so far , in order to avoid this rephrasing , so where , even though w we do n't tell the person `` ask blah - blah - blah - blah - blah `` they still try , or at least litonya tried to um repeat as much of that text as possible . grad c: say exactly what 's on there ? yeah . grad d: and uh my suggestion is of course we we keep the wizard , because i think she did a wonderful job , professor b: great . grad d: in the sense that she responded quite nicely to things that were not asked for , `` how much is a t a bus ticket and a transfer `` so this is gon na happen all the time , we d you can never be sure . professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: um . johno pointed out that uh we have maybe a grammatical gender problem there with wizard . grad a: yes . grad d: so um . grad a: i was n't was n't sure whether wizard was the correct term for uh `` not a man `` . grad c: there 's no female equivalent of grad d: but uh grad a: are you sure ? grad c: no , i do n't know . professor b: right . grad c: not that i know of . grad d: well , there is witch and warlock , grad a: yeah , that 's so @ @ . professor b: right . grad c: yeah , that 's what i was thinking , but grad d: and uh professor b: right . uh . grad d: ok . and um so , some some work needs to be done , but i think we can uh and this , and in case no you had n't seen it , this is what litonya looked at during the uh um while taking the while partaking in the data collection . grad c: ah . professor b: ok , great . so first of all , i agree that um we should hire fey , and start paying her . probably pay for the time she 's put in as well . um , do you know exactly how to do that , or is uh lila i mean , you know what exactly do we do to to put her on the payroll in some way ? grad d: i 'm completely clueless , but i 'm willing to learn . professor b: ok . well , you 'll have to . right . so anyway , um grad d: n professor b: so why do n't you uh ask lila and see what she says about you know exactly what we do for someone in th grad d: student - type worker , professor b: well , yeah she 's un she 's not a a student , grad d: or ? professor b: she just graduated but anyway . grad d: hmm . professor b: so i if yeah , i agree , she sounded fine , she a actually was uh , more uh , present and stuff than than she was in conversation , so she did a better job than i would have guessed from just talking to her . grad d: yeah . professor b: so i think that 's great . grad d: this is sort of what i gave her , so this is for example h how to get to the student prison , professor b: yeah . grad d: and i did n't even spell it out here and in some cases i i spelled it out a little bit um more thoroughly , professor b: right . grad d: this is the information on on the low sunken castle , and the amphitheater that never came up , and um , so i if we give her even more um , instruments to work with i think the results are gon na be even better . professor b: oh , yeah , and then of course as she does it she 'll she 'll learn @ @ . so that 's great . um and also if she 's willing to take on the job of organizing all those subjects and stuff that would be wonderful . grad d: mmm . professor b: and , uh she 's actually she 's going to graduate school in a kind of an experimental paradigm , so i think this is all just fine in terms of h her learning things she 's gon na need to know uh , to do her career . grad d: mmm . professor b: so , i my guess is she 'll be r r quite happy to take on that job . and , so grad d: yep . yeah she she did n't explicitly state that so . professor b: great . grad d: and um i told her that we gon na um figure out a meeting time in the near future to refine the tasks and s look for the potential sources to find people . she also agrees that you know if it 's all just gon na be students the data is gon na be less valuable because of that so . professor b: well , as i say there is this s set of people next door , it 's not hard to grad d: we 're already yeah . professor b: uh grad d: however , we may run into a problem with a reading task there . and um , we 'll see . professor b: yeah . we could talk to the people who run it and um see if they have a way that they could easily uh tell people that there 's a task , pays ten bucks or something , grad d: mm - hmm . yeah . professor b: but um you have to be comfortable reading relatively complicated stuff . and and there 'll probably be self - selection to some extent . grad d: mmm . yep . professor b: uh , so that 's good . um . now , i signed us up for the wednesday slot , and part of what we should do is this . grad d: ok . professor b: so , my idea on that was uh , partly we 'll talk about system stuff for the computer scientists , but partly i did want it to get the linguists involved in some of this issue about what the task is and all um you know , what the dialogue is , and what 's going on linguistically , because to the extent that we can get them contributing , that will be good . so this issue about you know re - formulating things , grad d: yep . professor b: maybe we can get some of the linguists sufficiently interested that they 'll help us with it , uh , other linguists , if you 're a linguist , but in any case , grad d: yep . professor b: um , the linguistics students and stuff . so my idea on on wednesday is partly to uh you i mean , what you did today would i is just fine . you just uh do `` this is what we did , and here 's the thing , and here 's s some of the dialogue and and so forth . `` but then , the other thing of course is we should um give the computer scientists some idea of of what 's going on with the system design , and where we think the belief - nets fit in and where the pieces are and stuff like that . is is this make sense to everybody ? grad d: yep . professor b: yeah . so , i do n't i do n't think it 's worth a lot of work , particularly on your part , to to to make a big presentation . i do n't think you should you do n't have to make any new uh powerpoint or anything . i think we got plenty of stuff to talk about . and , then um just see how a discussion goes . grad d: mm - hmm . sounds good . the uh other two things is um we 've can have johno tell us a little about this professor b: great . grad d: and we also have a l little bit on the interface , m - three - l enhancement , and then um that was it , i think . grad a: so , what i did for this this is uh , a pedagogical belief - net because i was i i took i tried to conceptually do what you were talking about with the nodes that you could expand out so what i did was i took i made these dummy nodes called trajector - in and trajector - out that would isolate the things related to the trajector . professor b: yep . grad a: and then there were the things with the source and the path and the goal . professor b: yep . grad a: and i separated them out . and then i um did similar things for our our net to uh with the context and the discourse and whatnot , um , so we could sort of isolate them or whatever in terms of the the top layer . professor b: mm - hmm . grad a: and then the bottom layer is just the mode . so . professor b: so , let 's let 's yeah , i do n't understand it . let 's go slide all the way up so we see what the p the p very bottom looks like , or is that it ? grad a: yeah , there 's just one more node and it says `` mode `` which is the decision between the grad d: yeah . professor b: ok , great . alright . grad a: so basically all i did was i took the last belief - net professor b: so mm - hmm . grad a: and i grouped things according to what how i thought they would fit in to uh image schemas that would be related . and the two that i came up with were trajector - landmark and then source - path - goal as initial ones . professor b: yep . mm - hmm . grad a: and then i said well , uh the trajector would be the person in this case probably . professor b: right , yep . grad a: um , you know , we have we have the concept of what their intention was , whether they were trying to tour or do business or whatever , professor b: right . grad a: or they were hurried . that 's kind of related to that . and then um in terms of the source , the things uh the only things that we had on there i believe were whether oh actually , i kind of , i might have added these cuz i do n't think we talked too much about the source in the old one but uh whether the where i 'm currently at is a landmark might have a bearing on whether grad d: mm - hmm . grad a: or the `` landmark - iness `` of where i 'm currently at . and `` usefulness `` is basi basically means is that an institutional facility like a town hall or something like that that 's not something that you 'd visit for tourist 's tourism 's sake or whatever . `` travel constraints `` would be something like you know , maybe they said they can they only wan na take a bus or something like that , right ? and then those are somewhat related to the path , professor b: mm - hmm . grad a: so that would determine whether we 'd could take we would be telling them to go to the bus stop or versus walking there directly . um , `` goal `` . similar things as the source except they also added whether the entity was closed and whether they have somehow marked that is was the final destination . um , and then if you go up , robert , yeah , so um , in terms of context , what we had currently said was whether they were a businessman or a tourist of some other person . um , discourse was related to whether they had asked about open hours or whether they asked about where the entrance was or the admission fee , or something along those lines . professor b: mm - hmm . grad a: uh , prosody i do n't really i 'm not really sure what prosody means , in this context , so i just made up you know whether whether what they say is or h how they say it is is that . professor b: right , ok . grad a: um , the parse would be what verb they chose , and then maybe how they modified it , in the sense of whether they said `` i need to get there quickly `` or whatever . professor b: mm - hmm . grad a: and um , in terms of world knowledge , this would just basically be like opening and closing times of things , the time of day it is , and whatnot . grad d: what 's `` tourbook `` ? grad a: tourbook ? that would be , i do n't know , the `` landmark - iness `` of things , grad d: mm - hmm . grad a: whether it 's in the tourbook or not . professor b: ch - ch - ch - ch . now . alright , so i understand what 's what you got . i do n't yet understand how you would use it . so let me see if i can ask grad a: well , this is not a working bayes - net . professor b: a s right . no , i understand that , but but um so , what let 's slide back up again and see start at the at the bottom and oop - bo - doop - boop - boop . yeah . so , you could imagine w uh , go ahead , you were about to go up there and point to something . grad a: well i ok , i just say what you were gon na say . professor b: good , do it ! grad a: ok . professor b: no no , go do it . grad a: uh i i 'd no , i was gon na wait until professor b: oh , ok . so , so if you if we made if we wanted to make it into a a real uh bayes - net , that is , you know , with fill you know , actually f uh , fill it @ @ in , then uh grad a: so we 'd have to get rid of this and connect these things directly to the mode . professor b: well , i do n't that 's an issue . so , um grad a: cuz i do n't understand how it would work otherwise . professor b: well , here 's the problem . and and uh bhaskara and i was talking about this a little earlier today is , if we just do this , we could wind up with a huge uh , combinatoric input to the mode thing . and uh grad a: well i oh yeah , i unders i understand that , i just uh it 's hard for me to imagine how he could get around that . professor b: well , i but that 's what we have to do . grad a: ok . professor b: ok , so , so , uh . there there are a variety of ways of doing it . uh . let me just mention something that i do n't want to pursue today which is there are technical ways of doing it , uh i i slipped a paper to bhaskara and about noisy - or 's and noisy - maxes and there 're ways to uh sort of back off on the purity of your bayes - net - edness . grad a: mmm . professor b: uh , so . if you co you could ima and i now i do n't know that any of those actually apply in this case , but there is some technology you could try to apply . grad a: so it 's possible that we could do something like a summary node of some sort that ok . professor b: yeah . yeah . and , um so . grad a: so in that case , the sum we 'd have we i mean , these would n't be the summary nodes . we 'd have the summary nodes like where the things were i guess maybe if thi if things were related to business or some other professor b: yeah . grad a: yeah . professor b: so what i was gon na say is is maybe a good at this point is to try to informally i mean , not necessarily in th in this meeting , but to try to informally think about what the decision variables are . so , if you have some bottom line uh decision about which mode , you know , what are the most relevant things . grad a: mmm . professor b: and the other trick , which is not a technical trick , it 's kind of a knowledge engineering trick , is to make the n each node sufficiently narrow that you do n't get this combinatorics . so that if you decided that you could characterize the decision as a trade - off between three factors , whatever they may be , ok ? then you could say `` aha , let 's have these three factors `` , ok ? and maybe a binary version f for each , or some relatively compact decision node just above the final one . grad a: mmm . professor b: and then the question would be if if those are the things that you care about , uh can you make a relatively compact way of getting from the various inputs to the things you care about . so that y so that , you know , you can sort of try to do a knowledge engineering thing grad a: ok . professor b: given that we 're not gon na screw with the technology and just always use uh sort of orthodox bayes - nets , then we have a knowledge engineering little problem of how do we do that . um and grad a: so what i kind of need to do is to take this one and the old one and merge them together ? professor b: `` eh - eh - eh . `` yeah . grad a: so that professor b: well , mmm , something . i mean , so uh , robert has thought about this problem f for a long time , cuz he 's had these examples kicking around , so he may have some good intuition about you know , what are the crucial things . grad a: mmm . professor b: and , um , i understand where this the uh this is a way of playing with this abs source - path - goal trajector exp uh uh abstraction and and sort of sh displaying it in a particular way . grad a: yeah . professor b: uh , i do n't think our friends uh on wednesday are going to be able to well , maybe they will . well , let me think about whether whether i think we can present this to them or not . um , uh , grad d: well , i think this is still , i mean , ad - hoc . this is sort of th the second version and i i i look at this maybe just as a , you know , a a whatever , uml diagram or , you know , as just a uh screen shot , not really as a bayes - net as john johno said . grad a: we could actually , y yeah draw it in a different way , in the sense that it would make it more abstract . grad d: yeah . but the uh the the nice thing is that you know , it just is a is a visual aid for thinking about these things which has comple clearly have to be specified m more carefully professor b: alright , well , le let me think about this some more , grad d: and uh professor b: and uh see if we can find a way to present this to this linguists group that that is helpful to them . grad d: i mean , ultimately we we may w w we regard this as sort of an exercise in in thinking about the problem and maybe a first version of uh a module , if you wan na call it that , that you can ask , that you can give input and it it 'll uh throw the dice for you , uh throw the die for you , because um i integrated this into the existing smartkom system in in the same way as much the same way we can um sort of have this uh this thing . close this down . so if this is what m - three - l um will look like and what it 'll give us , um and a very simple thing . we have an action that he wants to go from somewhere , which is some type of object , to someplace . professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: and this these uh this changed now only um , um it 's doing it twice now because it already did it once . um , we 'll add some action type , which in this case is `` approach `` and could be , you know , more refined uh in many ways . professor b: mm - hmm . good . grad d: or we can uh have something where the uh goal is a public place and it will give us then of course an action type of the type `` enter `` . so this is just based on this one um , on this one feature , and that 's that 's about all you can do . and so in the f if this pla if the object type um here is is a m is a landmark , of course it 'll be um `` vista `` . and um this is about as much as we can do if we do n't w if we want to avoid uh uh a huge combinatorial explosion where we specify `` ok , if it 's this and this but that is not the case `` , and so forth , it just gets really really messy . professor b: ok , i 'm sorry . you 're you 're grad d: hmm ? professor b: it was much too quick for me . ok , so let me see if i understand what you 're saying . so , i i do understand that uh you can take the m - three - l and add not and it w and you need to do this , for sure , we have to add , you know , not too much about um object types and stuff , and what i think you did is add some rules of the style that are already there that say `` if it 's of type `` landmark `` , then you take you 're gon na take a picture of it . `` grad d: exactly . professor b: f full stop , i mean , that 's what you do . ev - every landmark you take a picture of , grad d: every public place you enter , and statue you want to go as near as possible . professor b: you enter you approach . ok . uh , and certainly you can add rules like that to the existing smartkom system . and you just did , right ? ok . grad d: yeah . and it it would do us no good . professor b: ah . grad d: that ultimately . professor b: well . so , s well , and let 's think about this . grad d: w professor b: um , that 's a that 's another kind of baseline case , that 's another sort of thing `` ok , here 's a another kind of minimal uh way of tackling this `` . add extra properties , a deterministic rule for every property you have an action , `` pppt ! `` you do that . um , then the question would be uh now , if that 's all you 're doing , then you can get the types from the ontology , ok ? because that 's all you 're all you 're using is this type the types in the ontology and you 're done . grad d: hmm ? professor b: right ? so we do n't we do n't use the discourse , we do n't use the context , we do n't do any of those things . grad d: no . professor b: alright , but that 's but that 's ok , and i mean it it 's again a kind of one minimal extension of the existing things . and that 's something the uh smartkom people themselves would they 'd say `` sure , that 's no problem you know , no problem to add types to the ont `` right ? grad d: yeah . no . and this is just in order to exemplify what what we can do very , very easily is , um we have this this silly uh interface and we have the rules that are as banal as of we just saw , and we have our content . professor b: hmm . grad d: now , the content i whi which is sort of what what we see here , which is sort of the vista , schema , source , path , goal , whatever . professor b: yeah . yeah . grad d: this will um be um a job to find ways of writing down image schema , x - schema , constructions , in some some form , and have this be in a in a in the content , loosely called `` constructicon `` . and the rules we want to throw away completely . and um and here is exactly where what 's gon na be replaced with our bayes - net , which is exactly getting the input feeding into here . this decides whether it 's an whether action the the enter , the vista , or the whatever professor b: uh , `` approach `` , you called it , i think this time . grad d: uh approach um construction should be activated , ie just pasted in . professor b: that 's what you said yeah , that 's fine . yeah , but right . but it 's not construction there , it 's action . construction is a d is a different story . grad d: yeah . grad a: right . this is uh so what we 'd be generating would be a reference to a semantic uh like parameters for the for the x - schema ? professor b: for for for yes . grad a: ok . professor b: yeah . so that that uh i if you had the generalized `` go `` x - schema and you wanted to specialize it to these three ones , then you would have to supply the parameters . grad a: right . professor b: and then uh , although we have n't worried about this yet , you might wan na worry about something that would go to the gis and use that to actually get you know , detailed route planning . so , you know , where do you do take a picture of it and stuff like that . grad a: mm - hmm . professor b: but that 's not it 's not the immediate problem . grad a: right . professor b: but , presumably that that that functionality 's there when when we grad a: so the immediate problem is just deciding w which grad d: aspects of the x - schema to add . professor b: yeah , so the pro the immediate problem is is back t t to what you were what you are doing with the belief - net . grad a: yeah . professor b: you know , uh what are we going to use to make this decision grad a: right and then , once we 've made the decision , how do we put that into the content ? professor b: yeah . right . right . well , that that actually is relatively easy in this case . grad a: ok . professor b: the harder problem is we decide what we want to use , how are we gon na get it ? and that the the that 's the hardest problem . so , the hardest problem is how are you going to get this information from some combination of the what the person says and the context and the ontology . the h so , i think that 's the hardest problem at the moment is is grad a: ok . professor b: where are you gon na how are you gon na g get this information . um , and that 's so , getting back to here , uh , we have a d a technical problem with the belief - nets that we we do n't want all the com grad a: there 's just too many factors right now . professor b: too many factors if we if we allow them to just go combinatorially . grad a: right . professor b: so we wan na think about which ones we really care about and what they really most depend on , and can we c you know , clean this this up to the point where it grad a: so what we really wan na do i cuz this is really just the three layer net , we wan na b make it expand it out into more layers basically ? professor b: right . we might . uh , i mean that that 's certainly one thing we can do . uh , it 's true that the way you have this , a lot of the times you have what you 're having is the values rather than the variable . so uh grad a: right . so instead of in instead it should really be just be `` intention `` as a node instead of `` intention business `` or `` intention tour `` . professor b: ok ? so you yeah , right , and then it would have values , uh , `` tour `` , `` business `` , or uh `` hurried `` . grad a: right . professor b: but then but i it still some knowledge design to do , about i how do you wan na break this up , what really matters . grad a: right . professor b: i mean , it 's fine . you know , we have to it 's it 's iterative . we 're gon na have to work with it some . grad a: i think what was going through my mind when i did it was someone could both have a business intention and a touring intention and the probabilities of both of them happening at the same time professor b: well , you you could do that . and it 's perfectly ok to uh insist that that , you know , th um , they add up to one , but that there 's uh that that it does n't have to be one zero zero . grad a: mmm . ok . professor b: ok . so you could have the conditional p so the each of these things is gon na be a a a probability . so whenever there 's a choice , uh so like landmark - ness and usefulness , grad a: well , see i do n't think those would be mutually professor b: ok grad a: it seems like something could both be professor b: absolutely right . grad a: ok . professor b: and so that you might want to then have those b th - then they may have to be separate . they may not be able to be values of the same variable . grad d: object type , mm - hmm . professor b: so that 's but again , this is this is the sort of knowledge design you have to go through . right . it 's you know , it 's great is is , you know , as one step toward uh toward where we wan na go . grad d: also it strikes me that we we m may want to approach the point where we can sort of try to find a uh , a specification for some interface , here that um takes the normal m - three - l , looks at it . then we discussed in our pre - edu edu meeting um how to ask the ontology , what to ask the ontology um the fact that we can pretend we have one , make a dummy until we get the real one , and so um we we may wan na decide we can do this from here , but we also could do it um you know if we have a a a belief - net interface . so the belief - net takes as input , a vector , right ? of stuff . and it yeah . and um it output is whatever , as well . but this information is just m - three - l , and then we want to look up some more stuff in the ontology and we want to look up some more stuff in the maybe we want to ask the real world , maybe you want to look something up in the grs , but also we definitely want to look up in the dialogue history um some s some stuff . based on we we have uh i was just made some examples from the ontology and so we have for example some information there that the town hall is both a a a building and it has doors and stuff like this , but it is also an institution , so it has a mayor and so forth and so forth and we get relations out of it and once we have them , we can use that information to look in the dialogue history , `` were any of these things that that are part of the town hall as an institution mentioned ? `` , professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: `` were any of these that make the town hall a building mentioned ? `` , grad c: right . grad d: and so forth , and maybe draw some inferences on that . so this may be a a sort of a process of two to three steps before we get our vector , that we feed into the belief - net , professor b: yeah . i think that 's i think that 's exactly right . grad d: and then professor b: there will be rules , but they are n't rules that come to final decisions , they 're rules that gather information for a decision process . yeah , grad d: yeah . professor b: no i think that 's that 's just fine . uh , yeah . so they 'll they presumably there 'll be a thread or process or something that `` agent `` , yeah , `` agent `` , whatever you wan wan na say , yeah , that uh is rule - driven , and can can uh can do things like that . and um there 's an issue about whether there will be that 'll be the same agent and the one that then goes off and uh carries out the decision , so it probably will . my guess is it 'll be the same basic agent that um can go off and get information , run it through a a c this belief - net that turn a crank in the belief - net , that 'll come out with s uh more another vector , ok , which can then be uh applied at what we would call the simulation or action end . so you now know what you 're gon na do and that may actually involve getting more information . so on once you pull that out , it could be that that says `` ah ! now that we know that we gon na go ask the ontology something else . `` ok ? now that we know that it 's a bus trip , ok ? we did n't we did n't need to know beforehand , uh how long the bus trip takes or whatever , but but now that we know that 's the way it 's coming out then we got ta go find out more . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: so i think that 's ok . grad d: mm - hmm . so this is actually , s if if we were to build something that is um , and , uh , i had one more thing , the it needs to do yeah . i think we i i can come up with a a code for a module that we call the `` cognitive dispatcher `` , which does nothing , professor b: ok . grad d: but it looks of complect object trees and decides how are there parts missing that need to be filled out , there 's this is maybe something that this module can do , something that this module can do and then collect uh sub - objects and then recombine them and put them together . so maybe this is actually some some useful tool that we can use to rewrite it , and uh get this part , professor b: oh , ok . uh . grad d: then . yeah . professor b: i confess , i 'm still not completely comfortable with the overall story . um . i i this this is not a complaint , this is a promise to do more work . so i 'm gon na hafta think about it some more . um . in particular see what we 'd like to do , and and this has been implicit in the discussion , is to do this in such a way that you get a lot of re - use . so . what you 're trying to get out of this deep co cognitive linguistics is the fact that w if you know about source source , paths and goals , and nnn { comment } all this sort of stuff , that a lot of this is the same , for different tasks . and that uh there 's there 's some some important generalities that you 're getting , so that you do n't take each and every one of these tasks and hafta re - do it . and i do n't yet see how that goes . alright . grad d: there 're no primitives upon which uh professor b: u u what are the primitives , and how do you break this grad d: yeah . professor b: so i y i 'm just just there saying eee { comment } well you i know how to do any individual case , right ? but i do n't yet see what 's the really interesting question is can you use uh deep uh cognitive linguistics to get powerful generalizations . and grad d: yep . professor b: um grad d: maybe we sho should we a add then the `` what 's this ? `` domain ? n i mean , we have to `` how do i get to x `` . then we also have the `` what 's this ? `` domain , where we get some slightly different professor b: could . uh . grad c: right . grad d: um johno , actually , does not allow us to call them `` intentions `` anymore . professor b: yeah . grad d: so he he dislikes the term . professor b: well , i i do n't like the term either , so i have n i uh i i y w i i it uh grad d: but um , i 'm sure the `` what 's this ? `` questions also create some interesting x - schema aspects . professor b: could be . i 'm not a i 'm not op particularly opposed to adding that or any other task , grad d: so . professor b: i mean , eventually we 're gon na want a whole range of them . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: uh , grad c: that 's right . professor b: i 'm just saying that i 'm gon na hafta do some sort of first principles thinking about this . i just at the moment do n't know . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: h no . well , no the bayes the bayes - nets the bayes - nets will be dec specific for each decision . but what i 'd like to be able to do is to have the way that you extract properties , that will go into different bayes - nets , be the uh general . so that if you have sources , you have trajectors and stuff like that , and there 's a language for talking about trajectors , you should n't have to do that differently for uh uh going to something , than for circling it , for uh telling someone else how to go there , grad d: getting out of professor b: whatever it is . so that that , the the decision processes are gon na be different what you 'd really like of course is the same thing you 'd always like which is that you have um a kind of intermediate representation which looks the same o over a bunch of inputs and a bunch of outputs . so all sorts of different tasks and all sorts of different ways of expressing them use a lot of the same mechanism for pulling out what are the fundamental things going on . and that 's that would be the really pretty result . and pushing it one step further , when you get to construction grammar and stuff , what you 'd like to be able to do is say you have this parser which is much fancier than the parser that comes with uh smartkom , i that that actually uses constructions and is able to tell from this construction that there 's uh something about the intent you know , the actual what people wan na do or what they 're referring to and stuff , in independent of whether it about what is this or where is it or something , that you could tell from the construction , you could pull out deep semantic information which you 're gon na use in a general way . so that 's the you might . you might . you might be able to to uh say that this i this is the kind of construction in which the there 's let 's say there 's a uh cont there the the land the construction implies the there 's a con this thing is being viewed as a container . ok . so just from this local construction you know that you 're gon na hafta treat it as a container you might as well go off and get that information . and that may effect the way you process everything else . so if you say `` how do i get into the castle `` ok , then um or , you know , `` what is there in the castle `` or so there 's all sorts of things you might ask that involve the castle as a container and you 'd like to have this orthogonal so that anytime the castle 's referred to as a container , you crank up the appropriate stuff . independent of what the goal is , and independent of what the surrounding language is . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: alright , so that 's that 's the that 's the thesis level grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: uh grad d: it 's unfortunate also that english has sort of got rid of most of its spatial adverbs because they 're really fancy then , in in for these kinds of analysis . but uh . professor b: well , you have prepositional phrases that grad d: yeah , but they 're they 're easier for parsers . professor b: right . grad d: parsers can pick those up but but the with the spatial adverbs , they have a tough time . because the mean the semantics are very complex in that . professor b: right . grad d: ok , yeah ? i had one more thing . i do n't remember . i just forgot it again . no . oh yeah , b but an architecture like this would also enable us maybe to to throw this away and and replace it with something else , or whatever , so that we have so that this is sort of the representational formats we 're we 're we 're talking about that are independent of the problem , that generalize over those problems , and are oh , t of a higher quality than an any actual whatever um belief - net , or `` x `` that we may use for the decision making , ultimately . should be decoupled , yeah . ok . professor b: right . so , are we gon na be meeting here from now on ? i 'm i 'm happy to do that . we we had talked about it , cuz you have th th the display and everything , that seems fine . grad d: yeah , um , liz also asks whether we 're gon na have presentations every time . i do n't think we will need to do that but it 's professor b: right . grad d: so far i think it was nice as a visual aid for some things and and professor b: oh yeah . no i i think it 's worth it to ass to meet here to bring this , and assume that something may come up that we wan na look at . grad d: yeah . professor b: i mean . why not . grad d: and um . yeah , that was my professor b: she was good . litonya was good . grad d: yeah ? the uh um , she w she was definitely good in the sense that she she showed us some of the weaknesses professor b: right . grad d: and um also the um the fact that she was a real subject you know , is is professor b: right . yeah , and and and yeah and and she took it seriously and stuff l no , it was great . grad d: yeah . professor b: yeah . grad d: so i think that um i mean , w looking just looking at this data , listening to it , what can we get out of it in terms of our problem , for example , is , you know , she actually m said you know , she never s just spoke about entering , she just wanted to get someplace , and she said for buying stuff . nuh ? so this is definitely interesting , and grad c: yeah , right . grad d: um , and in the other case , where she wanted to look at the stuff at the graffiti , also , of course , not in the sentence `` how do you get there ? `` was pretty standard . nuh ? except that there was a nice anaphora , you know , for pointing at what she talked about before , and there she was talking about looking at pictures that are painted inside a wall on walls , so grad c: right . grad d: actually , you 'd need a lot of world knowledge . this would have been a classical um uh `` tango `` , actually . um , because graffiti is usually found on the outside and not on the inside , grad c: yeah . grad d: but ok . so the mistake { comment } would have make a mistake the system would have made a mistake here . grad c: yep . professor b: click ? alright .

the team listened to a recording of the interface 's trial run . litonya was asked to be the first subject of the interface and fey acted as the wizard . the team was happy with fey 's performance and decided to hire her . upon fey 's suggestion , they also decided that the wizard should be introduced in a more appropriate fashion . the team also agreed that the run was too long at 5 minutes .

what did grad d and grad c discuss about who was acting as the computer and wizard ? </s> grad a: hey , you 're not supposed to be drinking in here dude . grad d: ok . grad a: do we have to read them that slowly ? ok . sounded like a robot . um , this is t grad c: ok . grad a: when you read the numbers it kind of reminded me of beat poetry . grad d: i tried to go for the ee cummings sort of feeling , but grad a: three three six zero zero . four two zero zero one seven . that 's what i think of when i think of beat poetry . grad c: beat poetry . grad a: you ever seen `` so i married an axe murderer `` ? grad c: uh parts of it . grad d: mm - hmm . grad a: there 's a part wh there 's parts when he 's doing beat poetry . grad c: oh yeah ? grad a: and he talks like that . that 's why i thi that uh probably is why i think of it that way . grad d: hmm . no , i did n't see that movie . who did who made that ? grad a: mike meyers is the guy . grad d: oh . ok . grad a: it - it 's his uh it 's his cute romantic comedy . that 's that 's that 's his cute romantic comedy , yeah . the other thing that 's real funny , i 'll spoil it for you . is when he 's he works in a coffee shop , in san francisco , and uh he 's sitting there on this couch and they bring him this massive cup of espresso , and he 's like `` excuse me i ordered the large espresso ? `` grad d: uh . we 're having , a tiramisu tasting contest this weekend . grad a: wait do are y so you 're trying to decide who 's the best taster of tiramisu ? grad d: no ? um . there was a a a fierce argument that broke out over whose tiramisu might be the best and so we decided to have a contest where those people who claim to make good tiramisu make them , grad a: ah . grad d: and then we got a panel of impartial judges that will taste do a blind taste and then vote . grad a: hmm . grad d: should be fun . grad a: seems like seems like you could put a s magic special ingredient in , so that everyone know which one was yours . then , if you were to bribe them , you could uh grad d: mm - hmm . well , i was thinking if um y you guys have plans for sunday ? we 're we 're not it 's probably going to be this sunday , but um we 're sort of working with the weather here because we also want to combine it with some barbecue activity where we just fire it up and what whoever brings whatever you know , can throw it on there . so only the tiramisu is free , nothing else . grad a: well , i 'm going back to visit my parents this weekend , so , i 'll be out of town . grad d: so you 're going to the west bay then ? no , grad a: no , the south bay , grad d: south bay ? grad a: yeah . grad d: south bay . grad c: well , i should be free , so . grad d: ok , i 'll let you know . grad c: ok . grad a: we are . is nancy s uh gon na show up ? mmm . wonder if these things ever emit a very , like , piercing screech right in your ear ? grad d: they are gon na get more comfortable headsets . they already ordered them . ok . grad c: uh grad d: let 's get started . the uh should i go first , with the uh , um , data . can i have the remote control . thank you . ok . so . on friday we had our wizard test data test and um these are some of the results . this was the introduction . i actually uh , even though liz was uh kind enough to offer to be the first subject , i sort of felt that she knew too much , so i asked uh litonya . just on the spur of the moment , and she was uh kind enough to uh serve as the first subject . professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: so , this is what she saw as part of as uh for instr introduction , this is what she had to read aloud . uh , that was really difficult for her and uh grad c: because of l all the names , you mean ? grad d: the names and um this was the uh first three tasks she had to to master after she called the system , and um then of course the system broke down , and those were the l uh uh i should say the system was supposed to break down and then um these were the remaining three tasks that she was going to solve , with a human um . there are here are uh the results . mmm . and i will not we will skip the reading now . d um . and um . the reading was five minutes , exactly . and now comes the this is the phone - in phase of grad c: wait , can i i have a question . so . so there 's no system , right ? like , there was a wizard for both uh both parts , is this right ? grad d: yeah . it was bo it both times the same person . grad c: ok . grad d: one time , pretending to be a system , one time , to pretending to be a human , which is actually not pretending . grad c: ok . and she did n't grad d: i should grad c: i mean . well . is n't this kind of obvious when it says `` ok now you 're talking to a human `` and then the human has the same voice ? grad d: no no no . we u wait . ok , good question , but uh you you just wait and see . grad c: ok . grad d: it 's you 're gon na l learn . and um the wizard sometimes will not be audible , because she was actually they there was some uh lapse in the um wireless , we have to move her closer . grad a: is she mispronouncing `` anlage `` ? is it `` anlaga `` or `` anlunga `` grad d: they 're mispronouncing everything , grad a: ok . grad d: but it 's this is the system breaking down , actually . `` did i call europe ? `` so , this is it . well , if we we um professor b: so , are are you trying to record this meeting ? grad d: there was a strange reflex . i have a headache . i 'm really sort of out of it . ok , the uh lessons learned . the reading needs to be shorter . five minutes is just too long . um , that was already anticipated by some people suggested that if we just have bullets here , they 're gon na not they 're subjects are probably not gon na going to follow the order . and uh she did not . grad c: really ? grad d: she no . grad c: oh , it 's surprising . grad d: she she jumped around quite a bit . professor b: s so if you just number them `` one `` , `` two `` , `` three `` it 's grad d: yeah , and make it sort of clear in the uh professor b: ok . right . grad d: um . we need to so that 's one thing . and we need a better introduction for the wizard . that is something that fey actually thought of a in the last second that sh the system should introduce itself , when it 's called . professor b: mm - hmm . true . grad d: and um , um , another suggestion , by liz , was that we uh , through subjects , switch the tasks . so when when they have task - one with the computer , the next person should have task - one with a human , and so forth . professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: so we get nice um data for that . um , we have to refine the tasks more and more , which of course we have n't done at all , so far , in order to avoid this rephrasing , so where , even though w we do n't tell the person `` ask blah - blah - blah - blah - blah `` they still try , or at least litonya tried to um repeat as much of that text as possible . grad c: say exactly what 's on there ? yeah . grad d: and uh my suggestion is of course we we keep the wizard , because i think she did a wonderful job , professor b: great . grad d: in the sense that she responded quite nicely to things that were not asked for , `` how much is a t a bus ticket and a transfer `` so this is gon na happen all the time , we d you can never be sure . professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: um . johno pointed out that uh we have maybe a grammatical gender problem there with wizard . grad a: yes . grad d: so um . grad a: i was n't was n't sure whether wizard was the correct term for uh `` not a man `` . grad c: there 's no female equivalent of grad d: but uh grad a: are you sure ? grad c: no , i do n't know . professor b: right . grad c: not that i know of . grad d: well , there is witch and warlock , grad a: yeah , that 's so @ @ . professor b: right . grad c: yeah , that 's what i was thinking , but grad d: and uh professor b: right . uh . grad d: ok . and um so , some some work needs to be done , but i think we can uh and this , and in case no you had n't seen it , this is what litonya looked at during the uh um while taking the while partaking in the data collection . grad c: ah . professor b: ok , great . so first of all , i agree that um we should hire fey , and start paying her . probably pay for the time she 's put in as well . um , do you know exactly how to do that , or is uh lila i mean , you know what exactly do we do to to put her on the payroll in some way ? grad d: i 'm completely clueless , but i 'm willing to learn . professor b: ok . well , you 'll have to . right . so anyway , um grad d: n professor b: so why do n't you uh ask lila and see what she says about you know exactly what we do for someone in th grad d: student - type worker , professor b: well , yeah she 's un she 's not a a student , grad d: or ? professor b: she just graduated but anyway . grad d: hmm . professor b: so i if yeah , i agree , she sounded fine , she a actually was uh , more uh , present and stuff than than she was in conversation , so she did a better job than i would have guessed from just talking to her . grad d: yeah . professor b: so i think that 's great . grad d: this is sort of what i gave her , so this is for example h how to get to the student prison , professor b: yeah . grad d: and i did n't even spell it out here and in some cases i i spelled it out a little bit um more thoroughly , professor b: right . grad d: this is the information on on the low sunken castle , and the amphitheater that never came up , and um , so i if we give her even more um , instruments to work with i think the results are gon na be even better . professor b: oh , yeah , and then of course as she does it she 'll she 'll learn @ @ . so that 's great . um and also if she 's willing to take on the job of organizing all those subjects and stuff that would be wonderful . grad d: mmm . professor b: and , uh she 's actually she 's going to graduate school in a kind of an experimental paradigm , so i think this is all just fine in terms of h her learning things she 's gon na need to know uh , to do her career . grad d: mmm . professor b: so , i my guess is she 'll be r r quite happy to take on that job . and , so grad d: yep . yeah she she did n't explicitly state that so . professor b: great . grad d: and um i told her that we gon na um figure out a meeting time in the near future to refine the tasks and s look for the potential sources to find people . she also agrees that you know if it 's all just gon na be students the data is gon na be less valuable because of that so . professor b: well , as i say there is this s set of people next door , it 's not hard to grad d: we 're already yeah . professor b: uh grad d: however , we may run into a problem with a reading task there . and um , we 'll see . professor b: yeah . we could talk to the people who run it and um see if they have a way that they could easily uh tell people that there 's a task , pays ten bucks or something , grad d: mm - hmm . yeah . professor b: but um you have to be comfortable reading relatively complicated stuff . and and there 'll probably be self - selection to some extent . grad d: mmm . yep . professor b: uh , so that 's good . um . now , i signed us up for the wednesday slot , and part of what we should do is this . grad d: ok . professor b: so , my idea on that was uh , partly we 'll talk about system stuff for the computer scientists , but partly i did want it to get the linguists involved in some of this issue about what the task is and all um you know , what the dialogue is , and what 's going on linguistically , because to the extent that we can get them contributing , that will be good . so this issue about you know re - formulating things , grad d: yep . professor b: maybe we can get some of the linguists sufficiently interested that they 'll help us with it , uh , other linguists , if you 're a linguist , but in any case , grad d: yep . professor b: um , the linguistics students and stuff . so my idea on on wednesday is partly to uh you i mean , what you did today would i is just fine . you just uh do `` this is what we did , and here 's the thing , and here 's s some of the dialogue and and so forth . `` but then , the other thing of course is we should um give the computer scientists some idea of of what 's going on with the system design , and where we think the belief - nets fit in and where the pieces are and stuff like that . is is this make sense to everybody ? grad d: yep . professor b: yeah . so , i do n't i do n't think it 's worth a lot of work , particularly on your part , to to to make a big presentation . i do n't think you should you do n't have to make any new uh powerpoint or anything . i think we got plenty of stuff to talk about . and , then um just see how a discussion goes . grad d: mm - hmm . sounds good . the uh other two things is um we 've can have johno tell us a little about this professor b: great . grad d: and we also have a l little bit on the interface , m - three - l enhancement , and then um that was it , i think . grad a: so , what i did for this this is uh , a pedagogical belief - net because i was i i took i tried to conceptually do what you were talking about with the nodes that you could expand out so what i did was i took i made these dummy nodes called trajector - in and trajector - out that would isolate the things related to the trajector . professor b: yep . grad a: and then there were the things with the source and the path and the goal . professor b: yep . grad a: and i separated them out . and then i um did similar things for our our net to uh with the context and the discourse and whatnot , um , so we could sort of isolate them or whatever in terms of the the top layer . professor b: mm - hmm . grad a: and then the bottom layer is just the mode . so . professor b: so , let 's let 's yeah , i do n't understand it . let 's go slide all the way up so we see what the p the p very bottom looks like , or is that it ? grad a: yeah , there 's just one more node and it says `` mode `` which is the decision between the grad d: yeah . professor b: ok , great . alright . grad a: so basically all i did was i took the last belief - net professor b: so mm - hmm . grad a: and i grouped things according to what how i thought they would fit in to uh image schemas that would be related . and the two that i came up with were trajector - landmark and then source - path - goal as initial ones . professor b: yep . mm - hmm . grad a: and then i said well , uh the trajector would be the person in this case probably . professor b: right , yep . grad a: um , you know , we have we have the concept of what their intention was , whether they were trying to tour or do business or whatever , professor b: right . grad a: or they were hurried . that 's kind of related to that . and then um in terms of the source , the things uh the only things that we had on there i believe were whether oh actually , i kind of , i might have added these cuz i do n't think we talked too much about the source in the old one but uh whether the where i 'm currently at is a landmark might have a bearing on whether grad d: mm - hmm . grad a: or the `` landmark - iness `` of where i 'm currently at . and `` usefulness `` is basi basically means is that an institutional facility like a town hall or something like that that 's not something that you 'd visit for tourist 's tourism 's sake or whatever . `` travel constraints `` would be something like you know , maybe they said they can they only wan na take a bus or something like that , right ? and then those are somewhat related to the path , professor b: mm - hmm . grad a: so that would determine whether we 'd could take we would be telling them to go to the bus stop or versus walking there directly . um , `` goal `` . similar things as the source except they also added whether the entity was closed and whether they have somehow marked that is was the final destination . um , and then if you go up , robert , yeah , so um , in terms of context , what we had currently said was whether they were a businessman or a tourist of some other person . um , discourse was related to whether they had asked about open hours or whether they asked about where the entrance was or the admission fee , or something along those lines . professor b: mm - hmm . grad a: uh , prosody i do n't really i 'm not really sure what prosody means , in this context , so i just made up you know whether whether what they say is or h how they say it is is that . professor b: right , ok . grad a: um , the parse would be what verb they chose , and then maybe how they modified it , in the sense of whether they said `` i need to get there quickly `` or whatever . professor b: mm - hmm . grad a: and um , in terms of world knowledge , this would just basically be like opening and closing times of things , the time of day it is , and whatnot . grad d: what 's `` tourbook `` ? grad a: tourbook ? that would be , i do n't know , the `` landmark - iness `` of things , grad d: mm - hmm . grad a: whether it 's in the tourbook or not . professor b: ch - ch - ch - ch . now . alright , so i understand what 's what you got . i do n't yet understand how you would use it . so let me see if i can ask grad a: well , this is not a working bayes - net . professor b: a s right . no , i understand that , but but um so , what let 's slide back up again and see start at the at the bottom and oop - bo - doop - boop - boop . yeah . so , you could imagine w uh , go ahead , you were about to go up there and point to something . grad a: well i ok , i just say what you were gon na say . professor b: good , do it ! grad a: ok . professor b: no no , go do it . grad a: uh i i 'd no , i was gon na wait until professor b: oh , ok . so , so if you if we made if we wanted to make it into a a real uh bayes - net , that is , you know , with fill you know , actually f uh , fill it @ @ in , then uh grad a: so we 'd have to get rid of this and connect these things directly to the mode . professor b: well , i do n't that 's an issue . so , um grad a: cuz i do n't understand how it would work otherwise . professor b: well , here 's the problem . and and uh bhaskara and i was talking about this a little earlier today is , if we just do this , we could wind up with a huge uh , combinatoric input to the mode thing . and uh grad a: well i oh yeah , i unders i understand that , i just uh it 's hard for me to imagine how he could get around that . professor b: well , i but that 's what we have to do . grad a: ok . professor b: ok , so , so , uh . there there are a variety of ways of doing it . uh . let me just mention something that i do n't want to pursue today which is there are technical ways of doing it , uh i i slipped a paper to bhaskara and about noisy - or 's and noisy - maxes and there 're ways to uh sort of back off on the purity of your bayes - net - edness . grad a: mmm . professor b: uh , so . if you co you could ima and i now i do n't know that any of those actually apply in this case , but there is some technology you could try to apply . grad a: so it 's possible that we could do something like a summary node of some sort that ok . professor b: yeah . yeah . and , um so . grad a: so in that case , the sum we 'd have we i mean , these would n't be the summary nodes . we 'd have the summary nodes like where the things were i guess maybe if thi if things were related to business or some other professor b: yeah . grad a: yeah . professor b: so what i was gon na say is is maybe a good at this point is to try to informally i mean , not necessarily in th in this meeting , but to try to informally think about what the decision variables are . so , if you have some bottom line uh decision about which mode , you know , what are the most relevant things . grad a: mmm . professor b: and the other trick , which is not a technical trick , it 's kind of a knowledge engineering trick , is to make the n each node sufficiently narrow that you do n't get this combinatorics . so that if you decided that you could characterize the decision as a trade - off between three factors , whatever they may be , ok ? then you could say `` aha , let 's have these three factors `` , ok ? and maybe a binary version f for each , or some relatively compact decision node just above the final one . grad a: mmm . professor b: and then the question would be if if those are the things that you care about , uh can you make a relatively compact way of getting from the various inputs to the things you care about . so that y so that , you know , you can sort of try to do a knowledge engineering thing grad a: ok . professor b: given that we 're not gon na screw with the technology and just always use uh sort of orthodox bayes - nets , then we have a knowledge engineering little problem of how do we do that . um and grad a: so what i kind of need to do is to take this one and the old one and merge them together ? professor b: `` eh - eh - eh . `` yeah . grad a: so that professor b: well , mmm , something . i mean , so uh , robert has thought about this problem f for a long time , cuz he 's had these examples kicking around , so he may have some good intuition about you know , what are the crucial things . grad a: mmm . professor b: and , um , i understand where this the uh this is a way of playing with this abs source - path - goal trajector exp uh uh abstraction and and sort of sh displaying it in a particular way . grad a: yeah . professor b: uh , i do n't think our friends uh on wednesday are going to be able to well , maybe they will . well , let me think about whether whether i think we can present this to them or not . um , uh , grad d: well , i think this is still , i mean , ad - hoc . this is sort of th the second version and i i i look at this maybe just as a , you know , a a whatever , uml diagram or , you know , as just a uh screen shot , not really as a bayes - net as john johno said . grad a: we could actually , y yeah draw it in a different way , in the sense that it would make it more abstract . grad d: yeah . but the uh the the nice thing is that you know , it just is a is a visual aid for thinking about these things which has comple clearly have to be specified m more carefully professor b: alright , well , le let me think about this some more , grad d: and uh professor b: and uh see if we can find a way to present this to this linguists group that that is helpful to them . grad d: i mean , ultimately we we may w w we regard this as sort of an exercise in in thinking about the problem and maybe a first version of uh a module , if you wan na call it that , that you can ask , that you can give input and it it 'll uh throw the dice for you , uh throw the die for you , because um i integrated this into the existing smartkom system in in the same way as much the same way we can um sort of have this uh this thing . close this down . so if this is what m - three - l um will look like and what it 'll give us , um and a very simple thing . we have an action that he wants to go from somewhere , which is some type of object , to someplace . professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: and this these uh this changed now only um , um it 's doing it twice now because it already did it once . um , we 'll add some action type , which in this case is `` approach `` and could be , you know , more refined uh in many ways . professor b: mm - hmm . good . grad d: or we can uh have something where the uh goal is a public place and it will give us then of course an action type of the type `` enter `` . so this is just based on this one um , on this one feature , and that 's that 's about all you can do . and so in the f if this pla if the object type um here is is a m is a landmark , of course it 'll be um `` vista `` . and um this is about as much as we can do if we do n't w if we want to avoid uh uh a huge combinatorial explosion where we specify `` ok , if it 's this and this but that is not the case `` , and so forth , it just gets really really messy . professor b: ok , i 'm sorry . you 're you 're grad d: hmm ? professor b: it was much too quick for me . ok , so let me see if i understand what you 're saying . so , i i do understand that uh you can take the m - three - l and add not and it w and you need to do this , for sure , we have to add , you know , not too much about um object types and stuff , and what i think you did is add some rules of the style that are already there that say `` if it 's of type `` landmark `` , then you take you 're gon na take a picture of it . `` grad d: exactly . professor b: f full stop , i mean , that 's what you do . ev - every landmark you take a picture of , grad d: every public place you enter , and statue you want to go as near as possible . professor b: you enter you approach . ok . uh , and certainly you can add rules like that to the existing smartkom system . and you just did , right ? ok . grad d: yeah . and it it would do us no good . professor b: ah . grad d: that ultimately . professor b: well . so , s well , and let 's think about this . grad d: w professor b: um , that 's a that 's another kind of baseline case , that 's another sort of thing `` ok , here 's a another kind of minimal uh way of tackling this `` . add extra properties , a deterministic rule for every property you have an action , `` pppt ! `` you do that . um , then the question would be uh now , if that 's all you 're doing , then you can get the types from the ontology , ok ? because that 's all you 're all you 're using is this type the types in the ontology and you 're done . grad d: hmm ? professor b: right ? so we do n't we do n't use the discourse , we do n't use the context , we do n't do any of those things . grad d: no . professor b: alright , but that 's but that 's ok , and i mean it it 's again a kind of one minimal extension of the existing things . and that 's something the uh smartkom people themselves would they 'd say `` sure , that 's no problem you know , no problem to add types to the ont `` right ? grad d: yeah . no . and this is just in order to exemplify what what we can do very , very easily is , um we have this this silly uh interface and we have the rules that are as banal as of we just saw , and we have our content . professor b: hmm . grad d: now , the content i whi which is sort of what what we see here , which is sort of the vista , schema , source , path , goal , whatever . professor b: yeah . yeah . grad d: this will um be um a job to find ways of writing down image schema , x - schema , constructions , in some some form , and have this be in a in a in the content , loosely called `` constructicon `` . and the rules we want to throw away completely . and um and here is exactly where what 's gon na be replaced with our bayes - net , which is exactly getting the input feeding into here . this decides whether it 's an whether action the the enter , the vista , or the whatever professor b: uh , `` approach `` , you called it , i think this time . grad d: uh approach um construction should be activated , ie just pasted in . professor b: that 's what you said yeah , that 's fine . yeah , but right . but it 's not construction there , it 's action . construction is a d is a different story . grad d: yeah . grad a: right . this is uh so what we 'd be generating would be a reference to a semantic uh like parameters for the for the x - schema ? professor b: for for for yes . grad a: ok . professor b: yeah . so that that uh i if you had the generalized `` go `` x - schema and you wanted to specialize it to these three ones , then you would have to supply the parameters . grad a: right . professor b: and then uh , although we have n't worried about this yet , you might wan na worry about something that would go to the gis and use that to actually get you know , detailed route planning . so , you know , where do you do take a picture of it and stuff like that . grad a: mm - hmm . professor b: but that 's not it 's not the immediate problem . grad a: right . professor b: but , presumably that that that functionality 's there when when we grad a: so the immediate problem is just deciding w which grad d: aspects of the x - schema to add . professor b: yeah , so the pro the immediate problem is is back t t to what you were what you are doing with the belief - net . grad a: yeah . professor b: you know , uh what are we going to use to make this decision grad a: right and then , once we 've made the decision , how do we put that into the content ? professor b: yeah . right . right . well , that that actually is relatively easy in this case . grad a: ok . professor b: the harder problem is we decide what we want to use , how are we gon na get it ? and that the the that 's the hardest problem . so , the hardest problem is how are you going to get this information from some combination of the what the person says and the context and the ontology . the h so , i think that 's the hardest problem at the moment is is grad a: ok . professor b: where are you gon na how are you gon na g get this information . um , and that 's so , getting back to here , uh , we have a d a technical problem with the belief - nets that we we do n't want all the com grad a: there 's just too many factors right now . professor b: too many factors if we if we allow them to just go combinatorially . grad a: right . professor b: so we wan na think about which ones we really care about and what they really most depend on , and can we c you know , clean this this up to the point where it grad a: so what we really wan na do i cuz this is really just the three layer net , we wan na b make it expand it out into more layers basically ? professor b: right . we might . uh , i mean that that 's certainly one thing we can do . uh , it 's true that the way you have this , a lot of the times you have what you 're having is the values rather than the variable . so uh grad a: right . so instead of in instead it should really be just be `` intention `` as a node instead of `` intention business `` or `` intention tour `` . professor b: ok ? so you yeah , right , and then it would have values , uh , `` tour `` , `` business `` , or uh `` hurried `` . grad a: right . professor b: but then but i it still some knowledge design to do , about i how do you wan na break this up , what really matters . grad a: right . professor b: i mean , it 's fine . you know , we have to it 's it 's iterative . we 're gon na have to work with it some . grad a: i think what was going through my mind when i did it was someone could both have a business intention and a touring intention and the probabilities of both of them happening at the same time professor b: well , you you could do that . and it 's perfectly ok to uh insist that that , you know , th um , they add up to one , but that there 's uh that that it does n't have to be one zero zero . grad a: mmm . ok . professor b: ok . so you could have the conditional p so the each of these things is gon na be a a a probability . so whenever there 's a choice , uh so like landmark - ness and usefulness , grad a: well , see i do n't think those would be mutually professor b: ok grad a: it seems like something could both be professor b: absolutely right . grad a: ok . professor b: and so that you might want to then have those b th - then they may have to be separate . they may not be able to be values of the same variable . grad d: object type , mm - hmm . professor b: so that 's but again , this is this is the sort of knowledge design you have to go through . right . it 's you know , it 's great is is , you know , as one step toward uh toward where we wan na go . grad d: also it strikes me that we we m may want to approach the point where we can sort of try to find a uh , a specification for some interface , here that um takes the normal m - three - l , looks at it . then we discussed in our pre - edu edu meeting um how to ask the ontology , what to ask the ontology um the fact that we can pretend we have one , make a dummy until we get the real one , and so um we we may wan na decide we can do this from here , but we also could do it um you know if we have a a a belief - net interface . so the belief - net takes as input , a vector , right ? of stuff . and it yeah . and um it output is whatever , as well . but this information is just m - three - l , and then we want to look up some more stuff in the ontology and we want to look up some more stuff in the maybe we want to ask the real world , maybe you want to look something up in the grs , but also we definitely want to look up in the dialogue history um some s some stuff . based on we we have uh i was just made some examples from the ontology and so we have for example some information there that the town hall is both a a a building and it has doors and stuff like this , but it is also an institution , so it has a mayor and so forth and so forth and we get relations out of it and once we have them , we can use that information to look in the dialogue history , `` were any of these things that that are part of the town hall as an institution mentioned ? `` , professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: `` were any of these that make the town hall a building mentioned ? `` , grad c: right . grad d: and so forth , and maybe draw some inferences on that . so this may be a a sort of a process of two to three steps before we get our vector , that we feed into the belief - net , professor b: yeah . i think that 's i think that 's exactly right . grad d: and then professor b: there will be rules , but they are n't rules that come to final decisions , they 're rules that gather information for a decision process . yeah , grad d: yeah . professor b: no i think that 's that 's just fine . uh , yeah . so they 'll they presumably there 'll be a thread or process or something that `` agent `` , yeah , `` agent `` , whatever you wan wan na say , yeah , that uh is rule - driven , and can can uh can do things like that . and um there 's an issue about whether there will be that 'll be the same agent and the one that then goes off and uh carries out the decision , so it probably will . my guess is it 'll be the same basic agent that um can go off and get information , run it through a a c this belief - net that turn a crank in the belief - net , that 'll come out with s uh more another vector , ok , which can then be uh applied at what we would call the simulation or action end . so you now know what you 're gon na do and that may actually involve getting more information . so on once you pull that out , it could be that that says `` ah ! now that we know that we gon na go ask the ontology something else . `` ok ? now that we know that it 's a bus trip , ok ? we did n't we did n't need to know beforehand , uh how long the bus trip takes or whatever , but but now that we know that 's the way it 's coming out then we got ta go find out more . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: so i think that 's ok . grad d: mm - hmm . so this is actually , s if if we were to build something that is um , and , uh , i had one more thing , the it needs to do yeah . i think we i i can come up with a a code for a module that we call the `` cognitive dispatcher `` , which does nothing , professor b: ok . grad d: but it looks of complect object trees and decides how are there parts missing that need to be filled out , there 's this is maybe something that this module can do , something that this module can do and then collect uh sub - objects and then recombine them and put them together . so maybe this is actually some some useful tool that we can use to rewrite it , and uh get this part , professor b: oh , ok . uh . grad d: then . yeah . professor b: i confess , i 'm still not completely comfortable with the overall story . um . i i this this is not a complaint , this is a promise to do more work . so i 'm gon na hafta think about it some more . um . in particular see what we 'd like to do , and and this has been implicit in the discussion , is to do this in such a way that you get a lot of re - use . so . what you 're trying to get out of this deep co cognitive linguistics is the fact that w if you know about source source , paths and goals , and nnn { comment } all this sort of stuff , that a lot of this is the same , for different tasks . and that uh there 's there 's some some important generalities that you 're getting , so that you do n't take each and every one of these tasks and hafta re - do it . and i do n't yet see how that goes . alright . grad d: there 're no primitives upon which uh professor b: u u what are the primitives , and how do you break this grad d: yeah . professor b: so i y i 'm just just there saying eee { comment } well you i know how to do any individual case , right ? but i do n't yet see what 's the really interesting question is can you use uh deep uh cognitive linguistics to get powerful generalizations . and grad d: yep . professor b: um grad d: maybe we sho should we a add then the `` what 's this ? `` domain ? n i mean , we have to `` how do i get to x `` . then we also have the `` what 's this ? `` domain , where we get some slightly different professor b: could . uh . grad c: right . grad d: um johno , actually , does not allow us to call them `` intentions `` anymore . professor b: yeah . grad d: so he he dislikes the term . professor b: well , i i do n't like the term either , so i have n i uh i i y w i i it uh grad d: but um , i 'm sure the `` what 's this ? `` questions also create some interesting x - schema aspects . professor b: could be . i 'm not a i 'm not op particularly opposed to adding that or any other task , grad d: so . professor b: i mean , eventually we 're gon na want a whole range of them . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: uh , grad c: that 's right . professor b: i 'm just saying that i 'm gon na hafta do some sort of first principles thinking about this . i just at the moment do n't know . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: h no . well , no the bayes the bayes - nets the bayes - nets will be dec specific for each decision . but what i 'd like to be able to do is to have the way that you extract properties , that will go into different bayes - nets , be the uh general . so that if you have sources , you have trajectors and stuff like that , and there 's a language for talking about trajectors , you should n't have to do that differently for uh uh going to something , than for circling it , for uh telling someone else how to go there , grad d: getting out of professor b: whatever it is . so that that , the the decision processes are gon na be different what you 'd really like of course is the same thing you 'd always like which is that you have um a kind of intermediate representation which looks the same o over a bunch of inputs and a bunch of outputs . so all sorts of different tasks and all sorts of different ways of expressing them use a lot of the same mechanism for pulling out what are the fundamental things going on . and that 's that would be the really pretty result . and pushing it one step further , when you get to construction grammar and stuff , what you 'd like to be able to do is say you have this parser which is much fancier than the parser that comes with uh smartkom , i that that actually uses constructions and is able to tell from this construction that there 's uh something about the intent you know , the actual what people wan na do or what they 're referring to and stuff , in independent of whether it about what is this or where is it or something , that you could tell from the construction , you could pull out deep semantic information which you 're gon na use in a general way . so that 's the you might . you might . you might be able to to uh say that this i this is the kind of construction in which the there 's let 's say there 's a uh cont there the the land the construction implies the there 's a con this thing is being viewed as a container . ok . so just from this local construction you know that you 're gon na hafta treat it as a container you might as well go off and get that information . and that may effect the way you process everything else . so if you say `` how do i get into the castle `` ok , then um or , you know , `` what is there in the castle `` or so there 's all sorts of things you might ask that involve the castle as a container and you 'd like to have this orthogonal so that anytime the castle 's referred to as a container , you crank up the appropriate stuff . independent of what the goal is , and independent of what the surrounding language is . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: alright , so that 's that 's the that 's the thesis level grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: uh grad d: it 's unfortunate also that english has sort of got rid of most of its spatial adverbs because they 're really fancy then , in in for these kinds of analysis . but uh . professor b: well , you have prepositional phrases that grad d: yeah , but they 're they 're easier for parsers . professor b: right . grad d: parsers can pick those up but but the with the spatial adverbs , they have a tough time . because the mean the semantics are very complex in that . professor b: right . grad d: ok , yeah ? i had one more thing . i do n't remember . i just forgot it again . no . oh yeah , b but an architecture like this would also enable us maybe to to throw this away and and replace it with something else , or whatever , so that we have so that this is sort of the representational formats we 're we 're we 're talking about that are independent of the problem , that generalize over those problems , and are oh , t of a higher quality than an any actual whatever um belief - net , or `` x `` that we may use for the decision making , ultimately . should be decoupled , yeah . ok . professor b: right . so , are we gon na be meeting here from now on ? i 'm i 'm happy to do that . we we had talked about it , cuz you have th th the display and everything , that seems fine . grad d: yeah , um , liz also asks whether we 're gon na have presentations every time . i do n't think we will need to do that but it 's professor b: right . grad d: so far i think it was nice as a visual aid for some things and and professor b: oh yeah . no i i think it 's worth it to ass to meet here to bring this , and assume that something may come up that we wan na look at . grad d: yeah . professor b: i mean . why not . grad d: and um . yeah , that was my professor b: she was good . litonya was good . grad d: yeah ? the uh um , she w she was definitely good in the sense that she she showed us some of the weaknesses professor b: right . grad d: and um also the um the fact that she was a real subject you know , is is professor b: right . yeah , and and and yeah and and she took it seriously and stuff l no , it was great . grad d: yeah . professor b: yeah . grad d: so i think that um i mean , w looking just looking at this data , listening to it , what can we get out of it in terms of our problem , for example , is , you know , she actually m said you know , she never s just spoke about entering , she just wanted to get someplace , and she said for buying stuff . nuh ? so this is definitely interesting , and grad c: yeah , right . grad d: um , and in the other case , where she wanted to look at the stuff at the graffiti , also , of course , not in the sentence `` how do you get there ? `` was pretty standard . nuh ? except that there was a nice anaphora , you know , for pointing at what she talked about before , and there she was talking about looking at pictures that are painted inside a wall on walls , so grad c: right . grad d: actually , you 'd need a lot of world knowledge . this would have been a classical um uh `` tango `` , actually . um , because graffiti is usually found on the outside and not on the inside , grad c: yeah . grad d: but ok . so the mistake { comment } would have make a mistake the system would have made a mistake here . grad c: yep . professor b: click ? alright .

grad c was concerned that the same person acting as the wizard and computer system might not be the best idea . grad d had some way of making the wizard and computer seem distinct even though both were voiced by the same person and told grad c that the recording would clarify things .

what did the professor think about hiring fey ? </s> grad a: hey , you 're not supposed to be drinking in here dude . grad d: ok . grad a: do we have to read them that slowly ? ok . sounded like a robot . um , this is t grad c: ok . grad a: when you read the numbers it kind of reminded me of beat poetry . grad d: i tried to go for the ee cummings sort of feeling , but grad a: three three six zero zero . four two zero zero one seven . that 's what i think of when i think of beat poetry . grad c: beat poetry . grad a: you ever seen `` so i married an axe murderer `` ? grad c: uh parts of it . grad d: mm - hmm . grad a: there 's a part wh there 's parts when he 's doing beat poetry . grad c: oh yeah ? grad a: and he talks like that . that 's why i thi that uh probably is why i think of it that way . grad d: hmm . no , i did n't see that movie . who did who made that ? grad a: mike meyers is the guy . grad d: oh . ok . grad a: it - it 's his uh it 's his cute romantic comedy . that 's that 's that 's his cute romantic comedy , yeah . the other thing that 's real funny , i 'll spoil it for you . is when he 's he works in a coffee shop , in san francisco , and uh he 's sitting there on this couch and they bring him this massive cup of espresso , and he 's like `` excuse me i ordered the large espresso ? `` grad d: uh . we 're having , a tiramisu tasting contest this weekend . grad a: wait do are y so you 're trying to decide who 's the best taster of tiramisu ? grad d: no ? um . there was a a a fierce argument that broke out over whose tiramisu might be the best and so we decided to have a contest where those people who claim to make good tiramisu make them , grad a: ah . grad d: and then we got a panel of impartial judges that will taste do a blind taste and then vote . grad a: hmm . grad d: should be fun . grad a: seems like seems like you could put a s magic special ingredient in , so that everyone know which one was yours . then , if you were to bribe them , you could uh grad d: mm - hmm . well , i was thinking if um y you guys have plans for sunday ? we 're we 're not it 's probably going to be this sunday , but um we 're sort of working with the weather here because we also want to combine it with some barbecue activity where we just fire it up and what whoever brings whatever you know , can throw it on there . so only the tiramisu is free , nothing else . grad a: well , i 'm going back to visit my parents this weekend , so , i 'll be out of town . grad d: so you 're going to the west bay then ? no , grad a: no , the south bay , grad d: south bay ? grad a: yeah . grad d: south bay . grad c: well , i should be free , so . grad d: ok , i 'll let you know . grad c: ok . grad a: we are . is nancy s uh gon na show up ? mmm . wonder if these things ever emit a very , like , piercing screech right in your ear ? grad d: they are gon na get more comfortable headsets . they already ordered them . ok . grad c: uh grad d: let 's get started . the uh should i go first , with the uh , um , data . can i have the remote control . thank you . ok . so . on friday we had our wizard test data test and um these are some of the results . this was the introduction . i actually uh , even though liz was uh kind enough to offer to be the first subject , i sort of felt that she knew too much , so i asked uh litonya . just on the spur of the moment , and she was uh kind enough to uh serve as the first subject . professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: so , this is what she saw as part of as uh for instr introduction , this is what she had to read aloud . uh , that was really difficult for her and uh grad c: because of l all the names , you mean ? grad d: the names and um this was the uh first three tasks she had to to master after she called the system , and um then of course the system broke down , and those were the l uh uh i should say the system was supposed to break down and then um these were the remaining three tasks that she was going to solve , with a human um . there are here are uh the results . mmm . and i will not we will skip the reading now . d um . and um . the reading was five minutes , exactly . and now comes the this is the phone - in phase of grad c: wait , can i i have a question . so . so there 's no system , right ? like , there was a wizard for both uh both parts , is this right ? grad d: yeah . it was bo it both times the same person . grad c: ok . grad d: one time , pretending to be a system , one time , to pretending to be a human , which is actually not pretending . grad c: ok . and she did n't grad d: i should grad c: i mean . well . is n't this kind of obvious when it says `` ok now you 're talking to a human `` and then the human has the same voice ? grad d: no no no . we u wait . ok , good question , but uh you you just wait and see . grad c: ok . grad d: it 's you 're gon na l learn . and um the wizard sometimes will not be audible , because she was actually they there was some uh lapse in the um wireless , we have to move her closer . grad a: is she mispronouncing `` anlage `` ? is it `` anlaga `` or `` anlunga `` grad d: they 're mispronouncing everything , grad a: ok . grad d: but it 's this is the system breaking down , actually . `` did i call europe ? `` so , this is it . well , if we we um professor b: so , are are you trying to record this meeting ? grad d: there was a strange reflex . i have a headache . i 'm really sort of out of it . ok , the uh lessons learned . the reading needs to be shorter . five minutes is just too long . um , that was already anticipated by some people suggested that if we just have bullets here , they 're gon na not they 're subjects are probably not gon na going to follow the order . and uh she did not . grad c: really ? grad d: she no . grad c: oh , it 's surprising . grad d: she she jumped around quite a bit . professor b: s so if you just number them `` one `` , `` two `` , `` three `` it 's grad d: yeah , and make it sort of clear in the uh professor b: ok . right . grad d: um . we need to so that 's one thing . and we need a better introduction for the wizard . that is something that fey actually thought of a in the last second that sh the system should introduce itself , when it 's called . professor b: mm - hmm . true . grad d: and um , um , another suggestion , by liz , was that we uh , through subjects , switch the tasks . so when when they have task - one with the computer , the next person should have task - one with a human , and so forth . professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: so we get nice um data for that . um , we have to refine the tasks more and more , which of course we have n't done at all , so far , in order to avoid this rephrasing , so where , even though w we do n't tell the person `` ask blah - blah - blah - blah - blah `` they still try , or at least litonya tried to um repeat as much of that text as possible . grad c: say exactly what 's on there ? yeah . grad d: and uh my suggestion is of course we we keep the wizard , because i think she did a wonderful job , professor b: great . grad d: in the sense that she responded quite nicely to things that were not asked for , `` how much is a t a bus ticket and a transfer `` so this is gon na happen all the time , we d you can never be sure . professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: um . johno pointed out that uh we have maybe a grammatical gender problem there with wizard . grad a: yes . grad d: so um . grad a: i was n't was n't sure whether wizard was the correct term for uh `` not a man `` . grad c: there 's no female equivalent of grad d: but uh grad a: are you sure ? grad c: no , i do n't know . professor b: right . grad c: not that i know of . grad d: well , there is witch and warlock , grad a: yeah , that 's so @ @ . professor b: right . grad c: yeah , that 's what i was thinking , but grad d: and uh professor b: right . uh . grad d: ok . and um so , some some work needs to be done , but i think we can uh and this , and in case no you had n't seen it , this is what litonya looked at during the uh um while taking the while partaking in the data collection . grad c: ah . professor b: ok , great . so first of all , i agree that um we should hire fey , and start paying her . probably pay for the time she 's put in as well . um , do you know exactly how to do that , or is uh lila i mean , you know what exactly do we do to to put her on the payroll in some way ? grad d: i 'm completely clueless , but i 'm willing to learn . professor b: ok . well , you 'll have to . right . so anyway , um grad d: n professor b: so why do n't you uh ask lila and see what she says about you know exactly what we do for someone in th grad d: student - type worker , professor b: well , yeah she 's un she 's not a a student , grad d: or ? professor b: she just graduated but anyway . grad d: hmm . professor b: so i if yeah , i agree , she sounded fine , she a actually was uh , more uh , present and stuff than than she was in conversation , so she did a better job than i would have guessed from just talking to her . grad d: yeah . professor b: so i think that 's great . grad d: this is sort of what i gave her , so this is for example h how to get to the student prison , professor b: yeah . grad d: and i did n't even spell it out here and in some cases i i spelled it out a little bit um more thoroughly , professor b: right . grad d: this is the information on on the low sunken castle , and the amphitheater that never came up , and um , so i if we give her even more um , instruments to work with i think the results are gon na be even better . professor b: oh , yeah , and then of course as she does it she 'll she 'll learn @ @ . so that 's great . um and also if she 's willing to take on the job of organizing all those subjects and stuff that would be wonderful . grad d: mmm . professor b: and , uh she 's actually she 's going to graduate school in a kind of an experimental paradigm , so i think this is all just fine in terms of h her learning things she 's gon na need to know uh , to do her career . grad d: mmm . professor b: so , i my guess is she 'll be r r quite happy to take on that job . and , so grad d: yep . yeah she she did n't explicitly state that so . professor b: great . grad d: and um i told her that we gon na um figure out a meeting time in the near future to refine the tasks and s look for the potential sources to find people . she also agrees that you know if it 's all just gon na be students the data is gon na be less valuable because of that so . professor b: well , as i say there is this s set of people next door , it 's not hard to grad d: we 're already yeah . professor b: uh grad d: however , we may run into a problem with a reading task there . and um , we 'll see . professor b: yeah . we could talk to the people who run it and um see if they have a way that they could easily uh tell people that there 's a task , pays ten bucks or something , grad d: mm - hmm . yeah . professor b: but um you have to be comfortable reading relatively complicated stuff . and and there 'll probably be self - selection to some extent . grad d: mmm . yep . professor b: uh , so that 's good . um . now , i signed us up for the wednesday slot , and part of what we should do is this . grad d: ok . professor b: so , my idea on that was uh , partly we 'll talk about system stuff for the computer scientists , but partly i did want it to get the linguists involved in some of this issue about what the task is and all um you know , what the dialogue is , and what 's going on linguistically , because to the extent that we can get them contributing , that will be good . so this issue about you know re - formulating things , grad d: yep . professor b: maybe we can get some of the linguists sufficiently interested that they 'll help us with it , uh , other linguists , if you 're a linguist , but in any case , grad d: yep . professor b: um , the linguistics students and stuff . so my idea on on wednesday is partly to uh you i mean , what you did today would i is just fine . you just uh do `` this is what we did , and here 's the thing , and here 's s some of the dialogue and and so forth . `` but then , the other thing of course is we should um give the computer scientists some idea of of what 's going on with the system design , and where we think the belief - nets fit in and where the pieces are and stuff like that . is is this make sense to everybody ? grad d: yep . professor b: yeah . so , i do n't i do n't think it 's worth a lot of work , particularly on your part , to to to make a big presentation . i do n't think you should you do n't have to make any new uh powerpoint or anything . i think we got plenty of stuff to talk about . and , then um just see how a discussion goes . grad d: mm - hmm . sounds good . the uh other two things is um we 've can have johno tell us a little about this professor b: great . grad d: and we also have a l little bit on the interface , m - three - l enhancement , and then um that was it , i think . grad a: so , what i did for this this is uh , a pedagogical belief - net because i was i i took i tried to conceptually do what you were talking about with the nodes that you could expand out so what i did was i took i made these dummy nodes called trajector - in and trajector - out that would isolate the things related to the trajector . professor b: yep . grad a: and then there were the things with the source and the path and the goal . professor b: yep . grad a: and i separated them out . and then i um did similar things for our our net to uh with the context and the discourse and whatnot , um , so we could sort of isolate them or whatever in terms of the the top layer . professor b: mm - hmm . grad a: and then the bottom layer is just the mode . so . professor b: so , let 's let 's yeah , i do n't understand it . let 's go slide all the way up so we see what the p the p very bottom looks like , or is that it ? grad a: yeah , there 's just one more node and it says `` mode `` which is the decision between the grad d: yeah . professor b: ok , great . alright . grad a: so basically all i did was i took the last belief - net professor b: so mm - hmm . grad a: and i grouped things according to what how i thought they would fit in to uh image schemas that would be related . and the two that i came up with were trajector - landmark and then source - path - goal as initial ones . professor b: yep . mm - hmm . grad a: and then i said well , uh the trajector would be the person in this case probably . professor b: right , yep . grad a: um , you know , we have we have the concept of what their intention was , whether they were trying to tour or do business or whatever , professor b: right . grad a: or they were hurried . that 's kind of related to that . and then um in terms of the source , the things uh the only things that we had on there i believe were whether oh actually , i kind of , i might have added these cuz i do n't think we talked too much about the source in the old one but uh whether the where i 'm currently at is a landmark might have a bearing on whether grad d: mm - hmm . grad a: or the `` landmark - iness `` of where i 'm currently at . and `` usefulness `` is basi basically means is that an institutional facility like a town hall or something like that that 's not something that you 'd visit for tourist 's tourism 's sake or whatever . `` travel constraints `` would be something like you know , maybe they said they can they only wan na take a bus or something like that , right ? and then those are somewhat related to the path , professor b: mm - hmm . grad a: so that would determine whether we 'd could take we would be telling them to go to the bus stop or versus walking there directly . um , `` goal `` . similar things as the source except they also added whether the entity was closed and whether they have somehow marked that is was the final destination . um , and then if you go up , robert , yeah , so um , in terms of context , what we had currently said was whether they were a businessman or a tourist of some other person . um , discourse was related to whether they had asked about open hours or whether they asked about where the entrance was or the admission fee , or something along those lines . professor b: mm - hmm . grad a: uh , prosody i do n't really i 'm not really sure what prosody means , in this context , so i just made up you know whether whether what they say is or h how they say it is is that . professor b: right , ok . grad a: um , the parse would be what verb they chose , and then maybe how they modified it , in the sense of whether they said `` i need to get there quickly `` or whatever . professor b: mm - hmm . grad a: and um , in terms of world knowledge , this would just basically be like opening and closing times of things , the time of day it is , and whatnot . grad d: what 's `` tourbook `` ? grad a: tourbook ? that would be , i do n't know , the `` landmark - iness `` of things , grad d: mm - hmm . grad a: whether it 's in the tourbook or not . professor b: ch - ch - ch - ch . now . alright , so i understand what 's what you got . i do n't yet understand how you would use it . so let me see if i can ask grad a: well , this is not a working bayes - net . professor b: a s right . no , i understand that , but but um so , what let 's slide back up again and see start at the at the bottom and oop - bo - doop - boop - boop . yeah . so , you could imagine w uh , go ahead , you were about to go up there and point to something . grad a: well i ok , i just say what you were gon na say . professor b: good , do it ! grad a: ok . professor b: no no , go do it . grad a: uh i i 'd no , i was gon na wait until professor b: oh , ok . so , so if you if we made if we wanted to make it into a a real uh bayes - net , that is , you know , with fill you know , actually f uh , fill it @ @ in , then uh grad a: so we 'd have to get rid of this and connect these things directly to the mode . professor b: well , i do n't that 's an issue . so , um grad a: cuz i do n't understand how it would work otherwise . professor b: well , here 's the problem . and and uh bhaskara and i was talking about this a little earlier today is , if we just do this , we could wind up with a huge uh , combinatoric input to the mode thing . and uh grad a: well i oh yeah , i unders i understand that , i just uh it 's hard for me to imagine how he could get around that . professor b: well , i but that 's what we have to do . grad a: ok . professor b: ok , so , so , uh . there there are a variety of ways of doing it . uh . let me just mention something that i do n't want to pursue today which is there are technical ways of doing it , uh i i slipped a paper to bhaskara and about noisy - or 's and noisy - maxes and there 're ways to uh sort of back off on the purity of your bayes - net - edness . grad a: mmm . professor b: uh , so . if you co you could ima and i now i do n't know that any of those actually apply in this case , but there is some technology you could try to apply . grad a: so it 's possible that we could do something like a summary node of some sort that ok . professor b: yeah . yeah . and , um so . grad a: so in that case , the sum we 'd have we i mean , these would n't be the summary nodes . we 'd have the summary nodes like where the things were i guess maybe if thi if things were related to business or some other professor b: yeah . grad a: yeah . professor b: so what i was gon na say is is maybe a good at this point is to try to informally i mean , not necessarily in th in this meeting , but to try to informally think about what the decision variables are . so , if you have some bottom line uh decision about which mode , you know , what are the most relevant things . grad a: mmm . professor b: and the other trick , which is not a technical trick , it 's kind of a knowledge engineering trick , is to make the n each node sufficiently narrow that you do n't get this combinatorics . so that if you decided that you could characterize the decision as a trade - off between three factors , whatever they may be , ok ? then you could say `` aha , let 's have these three factors `` , ok ? and maybe a binary version f for each , or some relatively compact decision node just above the final one . grad a: mmm . professor b: and then the question would be if if those are the things that you care about , uh can you make a relatively compact way of getting from the various inputs to the things you care about . so that y so that , you know , you can sort of try to do a knowledge engineering thing grad a: ok . professor b: given that we 're not gon na screw with the technology and just always use uh sort of orthodox bayes - nets , then we have a knowledge engineering little problem of how do we do that . um and grad a: so what i kind of need to do is to take this one and the old one and merge them together ? professor b: `` eh - eh - eh . `` yeah . grad a: so that professor b: well , mmm , something . i mean , so uh , robert has thought about this problem f for a long time , cuz he 's had these examples kicking around , so he may have some good intuition about you know , what are the crucial things . grad a: mmm . professor b: and , um , i understand where this the uh this is a way of playing with this abs source - path - goal trajector exp uh uh abstraction and and sort of sh displaying it in a particular way . grad a: yeah . professor b: uh , i do n't think our friends uh on wednesday are going to be able to well , maybe they will . well , let me think about whether whether i think we can present this to them or not . um , uh , grad d: well , i think this is still , i mean , ad - hoc . this is sort of th the second version and i i i look at this maybe just as a , you know , a a whatever , uml diagram or , you know , as just a uh screen shot , not really as a bayes - net as john johno said . grad a: we could actually , y yeah draw it in a different way , in the sense that it would make it more abstract . grad d: yeah . but the uh the the nice thing is that you know , it just is a is a visual aid for thinking about these things which has comple clearly have to be specified m more carefully professor b: alright , well , le let me think about this some more , grad d: and uh professor b: and uh see if we can find a way to present this to this linguists group that that is helpful to them . grad d: i mean , ultimately we we may w w we regard this as sort of an exercise in in thinking about the problem and maybe a first version of uh a module , if you wan na call it that , that you can ask , that you can give input and it it 'll uh throw the dice for you , uh throw the die for you , because um i integrated this into the existing smartkom system in in the same way as much the same way we can um sort of have this uh this thing . close this down . so if this is what m - three - l um will look like and what it 'll give us , um and a very simple thing . we have an action that he wants to go from somewhere , which is some type of object , to someplace . professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: and this these uh this changed now only um , um it 's doing it twice now because it already did it once . um , we 'll add some action type , which in this case is `` approach `` and could be , you know , more refined uh in many ways . professor b: mm - hmm . good . grad d: or we can uh have something where the uh goal is a public place and it will give us then of course an action type of the type `` enter `` . so this is just based on this one um , on this one feature , and that 's that 's about all you can do . and so in the f if this pla if the object type um here is is a m is a landmark , of course it 'll be um `` vista `` . and um this is about as much as we can do if we do n't w if we want to avoid uh uh a huge combinatorial explosion where we specify `` ok , if it 's this and this but that is not the case `` , and so forth , it just gets really really messy . professor b: ok , i 'm sorry . you 're you 're grad d: hmm ? professor b: it was much too quick for me . ok , so let me see if i understand what you 're saying . so , i i do understand that uh you can take the m - three - l and add not and it w and you need to do this , for sure , we have to add , you know , not too much about um object types and stuff , and what i think you did is add some rules of the style that are already there that say `` if it 's of type `` landmark `` , then you take you 're gon na take a picture of it . `` grad d: exactly . professor b: f full stop , i mean , that 's what you do . ev - every landmark you take a picture of , grad d: every public place you enter , and statue you want to go as near as possible . professor b: you enter you approach . ok . uh , and certainly you can add rules like that to the existing smartkom system . and you just did , right ? ok . grad d: yeah . and it it would do us no good . professor b: ah . grad d: that ultimately . professor b: well . so , s well , and let 's think about this . grad d: w professor b: um , that 's a that 's another kind of baseline case , that 's another sort of thing `` ok , here 's a another kind of minimal uh way of tackling this `` . add extra properties , a deterministic rule for every property you have an action , `` pppt ! `` you do that . um , then the question would be uh now , if that 's all you 're doing , then you can get the types from the ontology , ok ? because that 's all you 're all you 're using is this type the types in the ontology and you 're done . grad d: hmm ? professor b: right ? so we do n't we do n't use the discourse , we do n't use the context , we do n't do any of those things . grad d: no . professor b: alright , but that 's but that 's ok , and i mean it it 's again a kind of one minimal extension of the existing things . and that 's something the uh smartkom people themselves would they 'd say `` sure , that 's no problem you know , no problem to add types to the ont `` right ? grad d: yeah . no . and this is just in order to exemplify what what we can do very , very easily is , um we have this this silly uh interface and we have the rules that are as banal as of we just saw , and we have our content . professor b: hmm . grad d: now , the content i whi which is sort of what what we see here , which is sort of the vista , schema , source , path , goal , whatever . professor b: yeah . yeah . grad d: this will um be um a job to find ways of writing down image schema , x - schema , constructions , in some some form , and have this be in a in a in the content , loosely called `` constructicon `` . and the rules we want to throw away completely . and um and here is exactly where what 's gon na be replaced with our bayes - net , which is exactly getting the input feeding into here . this decides whether it 's an whether action the the enter , the vista , or the whatever professor b: uh , `` approach `` , you called it , i think this time . grad d: uh approach um construction should be activated , ie just pasted in . professor b: that 's what you said yeah , that 's fine . yeah , but right . but it 's not construction there , it 's action . construction is a d is a different story . grad d: yeah . grad a: right . this is uh so what we 'd be generating would be a reference to a semantic uh like parameters for the for the x - schema ? professor b: for for for yes . grad a: ok . professor b: yeah . so that that uh i if you had the generalized `` go `` x - schema and you wanted to specialize it to these three ones , then you would have to supply the parameters . grad a: right . professor b: and then uh , although we have n't worried about this yet , you might wan na worry about something that would go to the gis and use that to actually get you know , detailed route planning . so , you know , where do you do take a picture of it and stuff like that . grad a: mm - hmm . professor b: but that 's not it 's not the immediate problem . grad a: right . professor b: but , presumably that that that functionality 's there when when we grad a: so the immediate problem is just deciding w which grad d: aspects of the x - schema to add . professor b: yeah , so the pro the immediate problem is is back t t to what you were what you are doing with the belief - net . grad a: yeah . professor b: you know , uh what are we going to use to make this decision grad a: right and then , once we 've made the decision , how do we put that into the content ? professor b: yeah . right . right . well , that that actually is relatively easy in this case . grad a: ok . professor b: the harder problem is we decide what we want to use , how are we gon na get it ? and that the the that 's the hardest problem . so , the hardest problem is how are you going to get this information from some combination of the what the person says and the context and the ontology . the h so , i think that 's the hardest problem at the moment is is grad a: ok . professor b: where are you gon na how are you gon na g get this information . um , and that 's so , getting back to here , uh , we have a d a technical problem with the belief - nets that we we do n't want all the com grad a: there 's just too many factors right now . professor b: too many factors if we if we allow them to just go combinatorially . grad a: right . professor b: so we wan na think about which ones we really care about and what they really most depend on , and can we c you know , clean this this up to the point where it grad a: so what we really wan na do i cuz this is really just the three layer net , we wan na b make it expand it out into more layers basically ? professor b: right . we might . uh , i mean that that 's certainly one thing we can do . uh , it 's true that the way you have this , a lot of the times you have what you 're having is the values rather than the variable . so uh grad a: right . so instead of in instead it should really be just be `` intention `` as a node instead of `` intention business `` or `` intention tour `` . professor b: ok ? so you yeah , right , and then it would have values , uh , `` tour `` , `` business `` , or uh `` hurried `` . grad a: right . professor b: but then but i it still some knowledge design to do , about i how do you wan na break this up , what really matters . grad a: right . professor b: i mean , it 's fine . you know , we have to it 's it 's iterative . we 're gon na have to work with it some . grad a: i think what was going through my mind when i did it was someone could both have a business intention and a touring intention and the probabilities of both of them happening at the same time professor b: well , you you could do that . and it 's perfectly ok to uh insist that that , you know , th um , they add up to one , but that there 's uh that that it does n't have to be one zero zero . grad a: mmm . ok . professor b: ok . so you could have the conditional p so the each of these things is gon na be a a a probability . so whenever there 's a choice , uh so like landmark - ness and usefulness , grad a: well , see i do n't think those would be mutually professor b: ok grad a: it seems like something could both be professor b: absolutely right . grad a: ok . professor b: and so that you might want to then have those b th - then they may have to be separate . they may not be able to be values of the same variable . grad d: object type , mm - hmm . professor b: so that 's but again , this is this is the sort of knowledge design you have to go through . right . it 's you know , it 's great is is , you know , as one step toward uh toward where we wan na go . grad d: also it strikes me that we we m may want to approach the point where we can sort of try to find a uh , a specification for some interface , here that um takes the normal m - three - l , looks at it . then we discussed in our pre - edu edu meeting um how to ask the ontology , what to ask the ontology um the fact that we can pretend we have one , make a dummy until we get the real one , and so um we we may wan na decide we can do this from here , but we also could do it um you know if we have a a a belief - net interface . so the belief - net takes as input , a vector , right ? of stuff . and it yeah . and um it output is whatever , as well . but this information is just m - three - l , and then we want to look up some more stuff in the ontology and we want to look up some more stuff in the maybe we want to ask the real world , maybe you want to look something up in the grs , but also we definitely want to look up in the dialogue history um some s some stuff . based on we we have uh i was just made some examples from the ontology and so we have for example some information there that the town hall is both a a a building and it has doors and stuff like this , but it is also an institution , so it has a mayor and so forth and so forth and we get relations out of it and once we have them , we can use that information to look in the dialogue history , `` were any of these things that that are part of the town hall as an institution mentioned ? `` , professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: `` were any of these that make the town hall a building mentioned ? `` , grad c: right . grad d: and so forth , and maybe draw some inferences on that . so this may be a a sort of a process of two to three steps before we get our vector , that we feed into the belief - net , professor b: yeah . i think that 's i think that 's exactly right . grad d: and then professor b: there will be rules , but they are n't rules that come to final decisions , they 're rules that gather information for a decision process . yeah , grad d: yeah . professor b: no i think that 's that 's just fine . uh , yeah . so they 'll they presumably there 'll be a thread or process or something that `` agent `` , yeah , `` agent `` , whatever you wan wan na say , yeah , that uh is rule - driven , and can can uh can do things like that . and um there 's an issue about whether there will be that 'll be the same agent and the one that then goes off and uh carries out the decision , so it probably will . my guess is it 'll be the same basic agent that um can go off and get information , run it through a a c this belief - net that turn a crank in the belief - net , that 'll come out with s uh more another vector , ok , which can then be uh applied at what we would call the simulation or action end . so you now know what you 're gon na do and that may actually involve getting more information . so on once you pull that out , it could be that that says `` ah ! now that we know that we gon na go ask the ontology something else . `` ok ? now that we know that it 's a bus trip , ok ? we did n't we did n't need to know beforehand , uh how long the bus trip takes or whatever , but but now that we know that 's the way it 's coming out then we got ta go find out more . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: so i think that 's ok . grad d: mm - hmm . so this is actually , s if if we were to build something that is um , and , uh , i had one more thing , the it needs to do yeah . i think we i i can come up with a a code for a module that we call the `` cognitive dispatcher `` , which does nothing , professor b: ok . grad d: but it looks of complect object trees and decides how are there parts missing that need to be filled out , there 's this is maybe something that this module can do , something that this module can do and then collect uh sub - objects and then recombine them and put them together . so maybe this is actually some some useful tool that we can use to rewrite it , and uh get this part , professor b: oh , ok . uh . grad d: then . yeah . professor b: i confess , i 'm still not completely comfortable with the overall story . um . i i this this is not a complaint , this is a promise to do more work . so i 'm gon na hafta think about it some more . um . in particular see what we 'd like to do , and and this has been implicit in the discussion , is to do this in such a way that you get a lot of re - use . so . what you 're trying to get out of this deep co cognitive linguistics is the fact that w if you know about source source , paths and goals , and nnn { comment } all this sort of stuff , that a lot of this is the same , for different tasks . and that uh there 's there 's some some important generalities that you 're getting , so that you do n't take each and every one of these tasks and hafta re - do it . and i do n't yet see how that goes . alright . grad d: there 're no primitives upon which uh professor b: u u what are the primitives , and how do you break this grad d: yeah . professor b: so i y i 'm just just there saying eee { comment } well you i know how to do any individual case , right ? but i do n't yet see what 's the really interesting question is can you use uh deep uh cognitive linguistics to get powerful generalizations . and grad d: yep . professor b: um grad d: maybe we sho should we a add then the `` what 's this ? `` domain ? n i mean , we have to `` how do i get to x `` . then we also have the `` what 's this ? `` domain , where we get some slightly different professor b: could . uh . grad c: right . grad d: um johno , actually , does not allow us to call them `` intentions `` anymore . professor b: yeah . grad d: so he he dislikes the term . professor b: well , i i do n't like the term either , so i have n i uh i i y w i i it uh grad d: but um , i 'm sure the `` what 's this ? `` questions also create some interesting x - schema aspects . professor b: could be . i 'm not a i 'm not op particularly opposed to adding that or any other task , grad d: so . professor b: i mean , eventually we 're gon na want a whole range of them . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: uh , grad c: that 's right . professor b: i 'm just saying that i 'm gon na hafta do some sort of first principles thinking about this . i just at the moment do n't know . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: h no . well , no the bayes the bayes - nets the bayes - nets will be dec specific for each decision . but what i 'd like to be able to do is to have the way that you extract properties , that will go into different bayes - nets , be the uh general . so that if you have sources , you have trajectors and stuff like that , and there 's a language for talking about trajectors , you should n't have to do that differently for uh uh going to something , than for circling it , for uh telling someone else how to go there , grad d: getting out of professor b: whatever it is . so that that , the the decision processes are gon na be different what you 'd really like of course is the same thing you 'd always like which is that you have um a kind of intermediate representation which looks the same o over a bunch of inputs and a bunch of outputs . so all sorts of different tasks and all sorts of different ways of expressing them use a lot of the same mechanism for pulling out what are the fundamental things going on . and that 's that would be the really pretty result . and pushing it one step further , when you get to construction grammar and stuff , what you 'd like to be able to do is say you have this parser which is much fancier than the parser that comes with uh smartkom , i that that actually uses constructions and is able to tell from this construction that there 's uh something about the intent you know , the actual what people wan na do or what they 're referring to and stuff , in independent of whether it about what is this or where is it or something , that you could tell from the construction , you could pull out deep semantic information which you 're gon na use in a general way . so that 's the you might . you might . you might be able to to uh say that this i this is the kind of construction in which the there 's let 's say there 's a uh cont there the the land the construction implies the there 's a con this thing is being viewed as a container . ok . so just from this local construction you know that you 're gon na hafta treat it as a container you might as well go off and get that information . and that may effect the way you process everything else . so if you say `` how do i get into the castle `` ok , then um or , you know , `` what is there in the castle `` or so there 's all sorts of things you might ask that involve the castle as a container and you 'd like to have this orthogonal so that anytime the castle 's referred to as a container , you crank up the appropriate stuff . independent of what the goal is , and independent of what the surrounding language is . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: alright , so that 's that 's the that 's the thesis level grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: uh grad d: it 's unfortunate also that english has sort of got rid of most of its spatial adverbs because they 're really fancy then , in in for these kinds of analysis . but uh . professor b: well , you have prepositional phrases that grad d: yeah , but they 're they 're easier for parsers . professor b: right . grad d: parsers can pick those up but but the with the spatial adverbs , they have a tough time . because the mean the semantics are very complex in that . professor b: right . grad d: ok , yeah ? i had one more thing . i do n't remember . i just forgot it again . no . oh yeah , b but an architecture like this would also enable us maybe to to throw this away and and replace it with something else , or whatever , so that we have so that this is sort of the representational formats we 're we 're we 're talking about that are independent of the problem , that generalize over those problems , and are oh , t of a higher quality than an any actual whatever um belief - net , or `` x `` that we may use for the decision making , ultimately . should be decoupled , yeah . ok . professor b: right . so , are we gon na be meeting here from now on ? i 'm i 'm happy to do that . we we had talked about it , cuz you have th th the display and everything , that seems fine . grad d: yeah , um , liz also asks whether we 're gon na have presentations every time . i do n't think we will need to do that but it 's professor b: right . grad d: so far i think it was nice as a visual aid for some things and and professor b: oh yeah . no i i think it 's worth it to ass to meet here to bring this , and assume that something may come up that we wan na look at . grad d: yeah . professor b: i mean . why not . grad d: and um . yeah , that was my professor b: she was good . litonya was good . grad d: yeah ? the uh um , she w she was definitely good in the sense that she she showed us some of the weaknesses professor b: right . grad d: and um also the um the fact that she was a real subject you know , is is professor b: right . yeah , and and and yeah and and she took it seriously and stuff l no , it was great . grad d: yeah . professor b: yeah . grad d: so i think that um i mean , w looking just looking at this data , listening to it , what can we get out of it in terms of our problem , for example , is , you know , she actually m said you know , she never s just spoke about entering , she just wanted to get someplace , and she said for buying stuff . nuh ? so this is definitely interesting , and grad c: yeah , right . grad d: um , and in the other case , where she wanted to look at the stuff at the graffiti , also , of course , not in the sentence `` how do you get there ? `` was pretty standard . nuh ? except that there was a nice anaphora , you know , for pointing at what she talked about before , and there she was talking about looking at pictures that are painted inside a wall on walls , so grad c: right . grad d: actually , you 'd need a lot of world knowledge . this would have been a classical um uh `` tango `` , actually . um , because graffiti is usually found on the outside and not on the inside , grad c: yeah . grad d: but ok . so the mistake { comment } would have make a mistake the system would have made a mistake here . grad c: yep . professor b: click ? alright .

the professor was very supportive of the idea of hiring fey . he thought that it would be helpful since she was also willing to take over the task of organizing subjects . in addition , he believed the project would provide her with a valuable learning experience for her own upcoming graduate school work in experimental paradigms .

summarize the discussion about controlling size of combinatorial input </s> grad a: hey , you 're not supposed to be drinking in here dude . grad d: ok . grad a: do we have to read them that slowly ? ok . sounded like a robot . um , this is t grad c: ok . grad a: when you read the numbers it kind of reminded me of beat poetry . grad d: i tried to go for the ee cummings sort of feeling , but grad a: three three six zero zero . four two zero zero one seven . that 's what i think of when i think of beat poetry . grad c: beat poetry . grad a: you ever seen `` so i married an axe murderer `` ? grad c: uh parts of it . grad d: mm - hmm . grad a: there 's a part wh there 's parts when he 's doing beat poetry . grad c: oh yeah ? grad a: and he talks like that . that 's why i thi that uh probably is why i think of it that way . grad d: hmm . no , i did n't see that movie . who did who made that ? grad a: mike meyers is the guy . grad d: oh . ok . grad a: it - it 's his uh it 's his cute romantic comedy . that 's that 's that 's his cute romantic comedy , yeah . the other thing that 's real funny , i 'll spoil it for you . is when he 's he works in a coffee shop , in san francisco , and uh he 's sitting there on this couch and they bring him this massive cup of espresso , and he 's like `` excuse me i ordered the large espresso ? `` grad d: uh . we 're having , a tiramisu tasting contest this weekend . grad a: wait do are y so you 're trying to decide who 's the best taster of tiramisu ? grad d: no ? um . there was a a a fierce argument that broke out over whose tiramisu might be the best and so we decided to have a contest where those people who claim to make good tiramisu make them , grad a: ah . grad d: and then we got a panel of impartial judges that will taste do a blind taste and then vote . grad a: hmm . grad d: should be fun . grad a: seems like seems like you could put a s magic special ingredient in , so that everyone know which one was yours . then , if you were to bribe them , you could uh grad d: mm - hmm . well , i was thinking if um y you guys have plans for sunday ? we 're we 're not it 's probably going to be this sunday , but um we 're sort of working with the weather here because we also want to combine it with some barbecue activity where we just fire it up and what whoever brings whatever you know , can throw it on there . so only the tiramisu is free , nothing else . grad a: well , i 'm going back to visit my parents this weekend , so , i 'll be out of town . grad d: so you 're going to the west bay then ? no , grad a: no , the south bay , grad d: south bay ? grad a: yeah . grad d: south bay . grad c: well , i should be free , so . grad d: ok , i 'll let you know . grad c: ok . grad a: we are . is nancy s uh gon na show up ? mmm . wonder if these things ever emit a very , like , piercing screech right in your ear ? grad d: they are gon na get more comfortable headsets . they already ordered them . ok . grad c: uh grad d: let 's get started . the uh should i go first , with the uh , um , data . can i have the remote control . thank you . ok . so . on friday we had our wizard test data test and um these are some of the results . this was the introduction . i actually uh , even though liz was uh kind enough to offer to be the first subject , i sort of felt that she knew too much , so i asked uh litonya . just on the spur of the moment , and she was uh kind enough to uh serve as the first subject . professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: so , this is what she saw as part of as uh for instr introduction , this is what she had to read aloud . uh , that was really difficult for her and uh grad c: because of l all the names , you mean ? grad d: the names and um this was the uh first three tasks she had to to master after she called the system , and um then of course the system broke down , and those were the l uh uh i should say the system was supposed to break down and then um these were the remaining three tasks that she was going to solve , with a human um . there are here are uh the results . mmm . and i will not we will skip the reading now . d um . and um . the reading was five minutes , exactly . and now comes the this is the phone - in phase of grad c: wait , can i i have a question . so . so there 's no system , right ? like , there was a wizard for both uh both parts , is this right ? grad d: yeah . it was bo it both times the same person . grad c: ok . grad d: one time , pretending to be a system , one time , to pretending to be a human , which is actually not pretending . grad c: ok . and she did n't grad d: i should grad c: i mean . well . is n't this kind of obvious when it says `` ok now you 're talking to a human `` and then the human has the same voice ? grad d: no no no . we u wait . ok , good question , but uh you you just wait and see . grad c: ok . grad d: it 's you 're gon na l learn . and um the wizard sometimes will not be audible , because she was actually they there was some uh lapse in the um wireless , we have to move her closer . grad a: is she mispronouncing `` anlage `` ? is it `` anlaga `` or `` anlunga `` grad d: they 're mispronouncing everything , grad a: ok . grad d: but it 's this is the system breaking down , actually . `` did i call europe ? `` so , this is it . well , if we we um professor b: so , are are you trying to record this meeting ? grad d: there was a strange reflex . i have a headache . i 'm really sort of out of it . ok , the uh lessons learned . the reading needs to be shorter . five minutes is just too long . um , that was already anticipated by some people suggested that if we just have bullets here , they 're gon na not they 're subjects are probably not gon na going to follow the order . and uh she did not . grad c: really ? grad d: she no . grad c: oh , it 's surprising . grad d: she she jumped around quite a bit . professor b: s so if you just number them `` one `` , `` two `` , `` three `` it 's grad d: yeah , and make it sort of clear in the uh professor b: ok . right . grad d: um . we need to so that 's one thing . and we need a better introduction for the wizard . that is something that fey actually thought of a in the last second that sh the system should introduce itself , when it 's called . professor b: mm - hmm . true . grad d: and um , um , another suggestion , by liz , was that we uh , through subjects , switch the tasks . so when when they have task - one with the computer , the next person should have task - one with a human , and so forth . professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: so we get nice um data for that . um , we have to refine the tasks more and more , which of course we have n't done at all , so far , in order to avoid this rephrasing , so where , even though w we do n't tell the person `` ask blah - blah - blah - blah - blah `` they still try , or at least litonya tried to um repeat as much of that text as possible . grad c: say exactly what 's on there ? yeah . grad d: and uh my suggestion is of course we we keep the wizard , because i think she did a wonderful job , professor b: great . grad d: in the sense that she responded quite nicely to things that were not asked for , `` how much is a t a bus ticket and a transfer `` so this is gon na happen all the time , we d you can never be sure . professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: um . johno pointed out that uh we have maybe a grammatical gender problem there with wizard . grad a: yes . grad d: so um . grad a: i was n't was n't sure whether wizard was the correct term for uh `` not a man `` . grad c: there 's no female equivalent of grad d: but uh grad a: are you sure ? grad c: no , i do n't know . professor b: right . grad c: not that i know of . grad d: well , there is witch and warlock , grad a: yeah , that 's so @ @ . professor b: right . grad c: yeah , that 's what i was thinking , but grad d: and uh professor b: right . uh . grad d: ok . and um so , some some work needs to be done , but i think we can uh and this , and in case no you had n't seen it , this is what litonya looked at during the uh um while taking the while partaking in the data collection . grad c: ah . professor b: ok , great . so first of all , i agree that um we should hire fey , and start paying her . probably pay for the time she 's put in as well . um , do you know exactly how to do that , or is uh lila i mean , you know what exactly do we do to to put her on the payroll in some way ? grad d: i 'm completely clueless , but i 'm willing to learn . professor b: ok . well , you 'll have to . right . so anyway , um grad d: n professor b: so why do n't you uh ask lila and see what she says about you know exactly what we do for someone in th grad d: student - type worker , professor b: well , yeah she 's un she 's not a a student , grad d: or ? professor b: she just graduated but anyway . grad d: hmm . professor b: so i if yeah , i agree , she sounded fine , she a actually was uh , more uh , present and stuff than than she was in conversation , so she did a better job than i would have guessed from just talking to her . grad d: yeah . professor b: so i think that 's great . grad d: this is sort of what i gave her , so this is for example h how to get to the student prison , professor b: yeah . grad d: and i did n't even spell it out here and in some cases i i spelled it out a little bit um more thoroughly , professor b: right . grad d: this is the information on on the low sunken castle , and the amphitheater that never came up , and um , so i if we give her even more um , instruments to work with i think the results are gon na be even better . professor b: oh , yeah , and then of course as she does it she 'll she 'll learn @ @ . so that 's great . um and also if she 's willing to take on the job of organizing all those subjects and stuff that would be wonderful . grad d: mmm . professor b: and , uh she 's actually she 's going to graduate school in a kind of an experimental paradigm , so i think this is all just fine in terms of h her learning things she 's gon na need to know uh , to do her career . grad d: mmm . professor b: so , i my guess is she 'll be r r quite happy to take on that job . and , so grad d: yep . yeah she she did n't explicitly state that so . professor b: great . grad d: and um i told her that we gon na um figure out a meeting time in the near future to refine the tasks and s look for the potential sources to find people . she also agrees that you know if it 's all just gon na be students the data is gon na be less valuable because of that so . professor b: well , as i say there is this s set of people next door , it 's not hard to grad d: we 're already yeah . professor b: uh grad d: however , we may run into a problem with a reading task there . and um , we 'll see . professor b: yeah . we could talk to the people who run it and um see if they have a way that they could easily uh tell people that there 's a task , pays ten bucks or something , grad d: mm - hmm . yeah . professor b: but um you have to be comfortable reading relatively complicated stuff . and and there 'll probably be self - selection to some extent . grad d: mmm . yep . professor b: uh , so that 's good . um . now , i signed us up for the wednesday slot , and part of what we should do is this . grad d: ok . professor b: so , my idea on that was uh , partly we 'll talk about system stuff for the computer scientists , but partly i did want it to get the linguists involved in some of this issue about what the task is and all um you know , what the dialogue is , and what 's going on linguistically , because to the extent that we can get them contributing , that will be good . so this issue about you know re - formulating things , grad d: yep . professor b: maybe we can get some of the linguists sufficiently interested that they 'll help us with it , uh , other linguists , if you 're a linguist , but in any case , grad d: yep . professor b: um , the linguistics students and stuff . so my idea on on wednesday is partly to uh you i mean , what you did today would i is just fine . you just uh do `` this is what we did , and here 's the thing , and here 's s some of the dialogue and and so forth . `` but then , the other thing of course is we should um give the computer scientists some idea of of what 's going on with the system design , and where we think the belief - nets fit in and where the pieces are and stuff like that . is is this make sense to everybody ? grad d: yep . professor b: yeah . so , i do n't i do n't think it 's worth a lot of work , particularly on your part , to to to make a big presentation . i do n't think you should you do n't have to make any new uh powerpoint or anything . i think we got plenty of stuff to talk about . and , then um just see how a discussion goes . grad d: mm - hmm . sounds good . the uh other two things is um we 've can have johno tell us a little about this professor b: great . grad d: and we also have a l little bit on the interface , m - three - l enhancement , and then um that was it , i think . grad a: so , what i did for this this is uh , a pedagogical belief - net because i was i i took i tried to conceptually do what you were talking about with the nodes that you could expand out so what i did was i took i made these dummy nodes called trajector - in and trajector - out that would isolate the things related to the trajector . professor b: yep . grad a: and then there were the things with the source and the path and the goal . professor b: yep . grad a: and i separated them out . and then i um did similar things for our our net to uh with the context and the discourse and whatnot , um , so we could sort of isolate them or whatever in terms of the the top layer . professor b: mm - hmm . grad a: and then the bottom layer is just the mode . so . professor b: so , let 's let 's yeah , i do n't understand it . let 's go slide all the way up so we see what the p the p very bottom looks like , or is that it ? grad a: yeah , there 's just one more node and it says `` mode `` which is the decision between the grad d: yeah . professor b: ok , great . alright . grad a: so basically all i did was i took the last belief - net professor b: so mm - hmm . grad a: and i grouped things according to what how i thought they would fit in to uh image schemas that would be related . and the two that i came up with were trajector - landmark and then source - path - goal as initial ones . professor b: yep . mm - hmm . grad a: and then i said well , uh the trajector would be the person in this case probably . professor b: right , yep . grad a: um , you know , we have we have the concept of what their intention was , whether they were trying to tour or do business or whatever , professor b: right . grad a: or they were hurried . that 's kind of related to that . and then um in terms of the source , the things uh the only things that we had on there i believe were whether oh actually , i kind of , i might have added these cuz i do n't think we talked too much about the source in the old one but uh whether the where i 'm currently at is a landmark might have a bearing on whether grad d: mm - hmm . grad a: or the `` landmark - iness `` of where i 'm currently at . and `` usefulness `` is basi basically means is that an institutional facility like a town hall or something like that that 's not something that you 'd visit for tourist 's tourism 's sake or whatever . `` travel constraints `` would be something like you know , maybe they said they can they only wan na take a bus or something like that , right ? and then those are somewhat related to the path , professor b: mm - hmm . grad a: so that would determine whether we 'd could take we would be telling them to go to the bus stop or versus walking there directly . um , `` goal `` . similar things as the source except they also added whether the entity was closed and whether they have somehow marked that is was the final destination . um , and then if you go up , robert , yeah , so um , in terms of context , what we had currently said was whether they were a businessman or a tourist of some other person . um , discourse was related to whether they had asked about open hours or whether they asked about where the entrance was or the admission fee , or something along those lines . professor b: mm - hmm . grad a: uh , prosody i do n't really i 'm not really sure what prosody means , in this context , so i just made up you know whether whether what they say is or h how they say it is is that . professor b: right , ok . grad a: um , the parse would be what verb they chose , and then maybe how they modified it , in the sense of whether they said `` i need to get there quickly `` or whatever . professor b: mm - hmm . grad a: and um , in terms of world knowledge , this would just basically be like opening and closing times of things , the time of day it is , and whatnot . grad d: what 's `` tourbook `` ? grad a: tourbook ? that would be , i do n't know , the `` landmark - iness `` of things , grad d: mm - hmm . grad a: whether it 's in the tourbook or not . professor b: ch - ch - ch - ch . now . alright , so i understand what 's what you got . i do n't yet understand how you would use it . so let me see if i can ask grad a: well , this is not a working bayes - net . professor b: a s right . no , i understand that , but but um so , what let 's slide back up again and see start at the at the bottom and oop - bo - doop - boop - boop . yeah . so , you could imagine w uh , go ahead , you were about to go up there and point to something . grad a: well i ok , i just say what you were gon na say . professor b: good , do it ! grad a: ok . professor b: no no , go do it . grad a: uh i i 'd no , i was gon na wait until professor b: oh , ok . so , so if you if we made if we wanted to make it into a a real uh bayes - net , that is , you know , with fill you know , actually f uh , fill it @ @ in , then uh grad a: so we 'd have to get rid of this and connect these things directly to the mode . professor b: well , i do n't that 's an issue . so , um grad a: cuz i do n't understand how it would work otherwise . professor b: well , here 's the problem . and and uh bhaskara and i was talking about this a little earlier today is , if we just do this , we could wind up with a huge uh , combinatoric input to the mode thing . and uh grad a: well i oh yeah , i unders i understand that , i just uh it 's hard for me to imagine how he could get around that . professor b: well , i but that 's what we have to do . grad a: ok . professor b: ok , so , so , uh . there there are a variety of ways of doing it . uh . let me just mention something that i do n't want to pursue today which is there are technical ways of doing it , uh i i slipped a paper to bhaskara and about noisy - or 's and noisy - maxes and there 're ways to uh sort of back off on the purity of your bayes - net - edness . grad a: mmm . professor b: uh , so . if you co you could ima and i now i do n't know that any of those actually apply in this case , but there is some technology you could try to apply . grad a: so it 's possible that we could do something like a summary node of some sort that ok . professor b: yeah . yeah . and , um so . grad a: so in that case , the sum we 'd have we i mean , these would n't be the summary nodes . we 'd have the summary nodes like where the things were i guess maybe if thi if things were related to business or some other professor b: yeah . grad a: yeah . professor b: so what i was gon na say is is maybe a good at this point is to try to informally i mean , not necessarily in th in this meeting , but to try to informally think about what the decision variables are . so , if you have some bottom line uh decision about which mode , you know , what are the most relevant things . grad a: mmm . professor b: and the other trick , which is not a technical trick , it 's kind of a knowledge engineering trick , is to make the n each node sufficiently narrow that you do n't get this combinatorics . so that if you decided that you could characterize the decision as a trade - off between three factors , whatever they may be , ok ? then you could say `` aha , let 's have these three factors `` , ok ? and maybe a binary version f for each , or some relatively compact decision node just above the final one . grad a: mmm . professor b: and then the question would be if if those are the things that you care about , uh can you make a relatively compact way of getting from the various inputs to the things you care about . so that y so that , you know , you can sort of try to do a knowledge engineering thing grad a: ok . professor b: given that we 're not gon na screw with the technology and just always use uh sort of orthodox bayes - nets , then we have a knowledge engineering little problem of how do we do that . um and grad a: so what i kind of need to do is to take this one and the old one and merge them together ? professor b: `` eh - eh - eh . `` yeah . grad a: so that professor b: well , mmm , something . i mean , so uh , robert has thought about this problem f for a long time , cuz he 's had these examples kicking around , so he may have some good intuition about you know , what are the crucial things . grad a: mmm . professor b: and , um , i understand where this the uh this is a way of playing with this abs source - path - goal trajector exp uh uh abstraction and and sort of sh displaying it in a particular way . grad a: yeah . professor b: uh , i do n't think our friends uh on wednesday are going to be able to well , maybe they will . well , let me think about whether whether i think we can present this to them or not . um , uh , grad d: well , i think this is still , i mean , ad - hoc . this is sort of th the second version and i i i look at this maybe just as a , you know , a a whatever , uml diagram or , you know , as just a uh screen shot , not really as a bayes - net as john johno said . grad a: we could actually , y yeah draw it in a different way , in the sense that it would make it more abstract . grad d: yeah . but the uh the the nice thing is that you know , it just is a is a visual aid for thinking about these things which has comple clearly have to be specified m more carefully professor b: alright , well , le let me think about this some more , grad d: and uh professor b: and uh see if we can find a way to present this to this linguists group that that is helpful to them . grad d: i mean , ultimately we we may w w we regard this as sort of an exercise in in thinking about the problem and maybe a first version of uh a module , if you wan na call it that , that you can ask , that you can give input and it it 'll uh throw the dice for you , uh throw the die for you , because um i integrated this into the existing smartkom system in in the same way as much the same way we can um sort of have this uh this thing . close this down . so if this is what m - three - l um will look like and what it 'll give us , um and a very simple thing . we have an action that he wants to go from somewhere , which is some type of object , to someplace . professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: and this these uh this changed now only um , um it 's doing it twice now because it already did it once . um , we 'll add some action type , which in this case is `` approach `` and could be , you know , more refined uh in many ways . professor b: mm - hmm . good . grad d: or we can uh have something where the uh goal is a public place and it will give us then of course an action type of the type `` enter `` . so this is just based on this one um , on this one feature , and that 's that 's about all you can do . and so in the f if this pla if the object type um here is is a m is a landmark , of course it 'll be um `` vista `` . and um this is about as much as we can do if we do n't w if we want to avoid uh uh a huge combinatorial explosion where we specify `` ok , if it 's this and this but that is not the case `` , and so forth , it just gets really really messy . professor b: ok , i 'm sorry . you 're you 're grad d: hmm ? professor b: it was much too quick for me . ok , so let me see if i understand what you 're saying . so , i i do understand that uh you can take the m - three - l and add not and it w and you need to do this , for sure , we have to add , you know , not too much about um object types and stuff , and what i think you did is add some rules of the style that are already there that say `` if it 's of type `` landmark `` , then you take you 're gon na take a picture of it . `` grad d: exactly . professor b: f full stop , i mean , that 's what you do . ev - every landmark you take a picture of , grad d: every public place you enter , and statue you want to go as near as possible . professor b: you enter you approach . ok . uh , and certainly you can add rules like that to the existing smartkom system . and you just did , right ? ok . grad d: yeah . and it it would do us no good . professor b: ah . grad d: that ultimately . professor b: well . so , s well , and let 's think about this . grad d: w professor b: um , that 's a that 's another kind of baseline case , that 's another sort of thing `` ok , here 's a another kind of minimal uh way of tackling this `` . add extra properties , a deterministic rule for every property you have an action , `` pppt ! `` you do that . um , then the question would be uh now , if that 's all you 're doing , then you can get the types from the ontology , ok ? because that 's all you 're all you 're using is this type the types in the ontology and you 're done . grad d: hmm ? professor b: right ? so we do n't we do n't use the discourse , we do n't use the context , we do n't do any of those things . grad d: no . professor b: alright , but that 's but that 's ok , and i mean it it 's again a kind of one minimal extension of the existing things . and that 's something the uh smartkom people themselves would they 'd say `` sure , that 's no problem you know , no problem to add types to the ont `` right ? grad d: yeah . no . and this is just in order to exemplify what what we can do very , very easily is , um we have this this silly uh interface and we have the rules that are as banal as of we just saw , and we have our content . professor b: hmm . grad d: now , the content i whi which is sort of what what we see here , which is sort of the vista , schema , source , path , goal , whatever . professor b: yeah . yeah . grad d: this will um be um a job to find ways of writing down image schema , x - schema , constructions , in some some form , and have this be in a in a in the content , loosely called `` constructicon `` . and the rules we want to throw away completely . and um and here is exactly where what 's gon na be replaced with our bayes - net , which is exactly getting the input feeding into here . this decides whether it 's an whether action the the enter , the vista , or the whatever professor b: uh , `` approach `` , you called it , i think this time . grad d: uh approach um construction should be activated , ie just pasted in . professor b: that 's what you said yeah , that 's fine . yeah , but right . but it 's not construction there , it 's action . construction is a d is a different story . grad d: yeah . grad a: right . this is uh so what we 'd be generating would be a reference to a semantic uh like parameters for the for the x - schema ? professor b: for for for yes . grad a: ok . professor b: yeah . so that that uh i if you had the generalized `` go `` x - schema and you wanted to specialize it to these three ones , then you would have to supply the parameters . grad a: right . professor b: and then uh , although we have n't worried about this yet , you might wan na worry about something that would go to the gis and use that to actually get you know , detailed route planning . so , you know , where do you do take a picture of it and stuff like that . grad a: mm - hmm . professor b: but that 's not it 's not the immediate problem . grad a: right . professor b: but , presumably that that that functionality 's there when when we grad a: so the immediate problem is just deciding w which grad d: aspects of the x - schema to add . professor b: yeah , so the pro the immediate problem is is back t t to what you were what you are doing with the belief - net . grad a: yeah . professor b: you know , uh what are we going to use to make this decision grad a: right and then , once we 've made the decision , how do we put that into the content ? professor b: yeah . right . right . well , that that actually is relatively easy in this case . grad a: ok . professor b: the harder problem is we decide what we want to use , how are we gon na get it ? and that the the that 's the hardest problem . so , the hardest problem is how are you going to get this information from some combination of the what the person says and the context and the ontology . the h so , i think that 's the hardest problem at the moment is is grad a: ok . professor b: where are you gon na how are you gon na g get this information . um , and that 's so , getting back to here , uh , we have a d a technical problem with the belief - nets that we we do n't want all the com grad a: there 's just too many factors right now . professor b: too many factors if we if we allow them to just go combinatorially . grad a: right . professor b: so we wan na think about which ones we really care about and what they really most depend on , and can we c you know , clean this this up to the point where it grad a: so what we really wan na do i cuz this is really just the three layer net , we wan na b make it expand it out into more layers basically ? professor b: right . we might . uh , i mean that that 's certainly one thing we can do . uh , it 's true that the way you have this , a lot of the times you have what you 're having is the values rather than the variable . so uh grad a: right . so instead of in instead it should really be just be `` intention `` as a node instead of `` intention business `` or `` intention tour `` . professor b: ok ? so you yeah , right , and then it would have values , uh , `` tour `` , `` business `` , or uh `` hurried `` . grad a: right . professor b: but then but i it still some knowledge design to do , about i how do you wan na break this up , what really matters . grad a: right . professor b: i mean , it 's fine . you know , we have to it 's it 's iterative . we 're gon na have to work with it some . grad a: i think what was going through my mind when i did it was someone could both have a business intention and a touring intention and the probabilities of both of them happening at the same time professor b: well , you you could do that . and it 's perfectly ok to uh insist that that , you know , th um , they add up to one , but that there 's uh that that it does n't have to be one zero zero . grad a: mmm . ok . professor b: ok . so you could have the conditional p so the each of these things is gon na be a a a probability . so whenever there 's a choice , uh so like landmark - ness and usefulness , grad a: well , see i do n't think those would be mutually professor b: ok grad a: it seems like something could both be professor b: absolutely right . grad a: ok . professor b: and so that you might want to then have those b th - then they may have to be separate . they may not be able to be values of the same variable . grad d: object type , mm - hmm . professor b: so that 's but again , this is this is the sort of knowledge design you have to go through . right . it 's you know , it 's great is is , you know , as one step toward uh toward where we wan na go . grad d: also it strikes me that we we m may want to approach the point where we can sort of try to find a uh , a specification for some interface , here that um takes the normal m - three - l , looks at it . then we discussed in our pre - edu edu meeting um how to ask the ontology , what to ask the ontology um the fact that we can pretend we have one , make a dummy until we get the real one , and so um we we may wan na decide we can do this from here , but we also could do it um you know if we have a a a belief - net interface . so the belief - net takes as input , a vector , right ? of stuff . and it yeah . and um it output is whatever , as well . but this information is just m - three - l , and then we want to look up some more stuff in the ontology and we want to look up some more stuff in the maybe we want to ask the real world , maybe you want to look something up in the grs , but also we definitely want to look up in the dialogue history um some s some stuff . based on we we have uh i was just made some examples from the ontology and so we have for example some information there that the town hall is both a a a building and it has doors and stuff like this , but it is also an institution , so it has a mayor and so forth and so forth and we get relations out of it and once we have them , we can use that information to look in the dialogue history , `` were any of these things that that are part of the town hall as an institution mentioned ? `` , professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: `` were any of these that make the town hall a building mentioned ? `` , grad c: right . grad d: and so forth , and maybe draw some inferences on that . so this may be a a sort of a process of two to three steps before we get our vector , that we feed into the belief - net , professor b: yeah . i think that 's i think that 's exactly right . grad d: and then professor b: there will be rules , but they are n't rules that come to final decisions , they 're rules that gather information for a decision process . yeah , grad d: yeah . professor b: no i think that 's that 's just fine . uh , yeah . so they 'll they presumably there 'll be a thread or process or something that `` agent `` , yeah , `` agent `` , whatever you wan wan na say , yeah , that uh is rule - driven , and can can uh can do things like that . and um there 's an issue about whether there will be that 'll be the same agent and the one that then goes off and uh carries out the decision , so it probably will . my guess is it 'll be the same basic agent that um can go off and get information , run it through a a c this belief - net that turn a crank in the belief - net , that 'll come out with s uh more another vector , ok , which can then be uh applied at what we would call the simulation or action end . so you now know what you 're gon na do and that may actually involve getting more information . so on once you pull that out , it could be that that says `` ah ! now that we know that we gon na go ask the ontology something else . `` ok ? now that we know that it 's a bus trip , ok ? we did n't we did n't need to know beforehand , uh how long the bus trip takes or whatever , but but now that we know that 's the way it 's coming out then we got ta go find out more . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: so i think that 's ok . grad d: mm - hmm . so this is actually , s if if we were to build something that is um , and , uh , i had one more thing , the it needs to do yeah . i think we i i can come up with a a code for a module that we call the `` cognitive dispatcher `` , which does nothing , professor b: ok . grad d: but it looks of complect object trees and decides how are there parts missing that need to be filled out , there 's this is maybe something that this module can do , something that this module can do and then collect uh sub - objects and then recombine them and put them together . so maybe this is actually some some useful tool that we can use to rewrite it , and uh get this part , professor b: oh , ok . uh . grad d: then . yeah . professor b: i confess , i 'm still not completely comfortable with the overall story . um . i i this this is not a complaint , this is a promise to do more work . so i 'm gon na hafta think about it some more . um . in particular see what we 'd like to do , and and this has been implicit in the discussion , is to do this in such a way that you get a lot of re - use . so . what you 're trying to get out of this deep co cognitive linguistics is the fact that w if you know about source source , paths and goals , and nnn { comment } all this sort of stuff , that a lot of this is the same , for different tasks . and that uh there 's there 's some some important generalities that you 're getting , so that you do n't take each and every one of these tasks and hafta re - do it . and i do n't yet see how that goes . alright . grad d: there 're no primitives upon which uh professor b: u u what are the primitives , and how do you break this grad d: yeah . professor b: so i y i 'm just just there saying eee { comment } well you i know how to do any individual case , right ? but i do n't yet see what 's the really interesting question is can you use uh deep uh cognitive linguistics to get powerful generalizations . and grad d: yep . professor b: um grad d: maybe we sho should we a add then the `` what 's this ? `` domain ? n i mean , we have to `` how do i get to x `` . then we also have the `` what 's this ? `` domain , where we get some slightly different professor b: could . uh . grad c: right . grad d: um johno , actually , does not allow us to call them `` intentions `` anymore . professor b: yeah . grad d: so he he dislikes the term . professor b: well , i i do n't like the term either , so i have n i uh i i y w i i it uh grad d: but um , i 'm sure the `` what 's this ? `` questions also create some interesting x - schema aspects . professor b: could be . i 'm not a i 'm not op particularly opposed to adding that or any other task , grad d: so . professor b: i mean , eventually we 're gon na want a whole range of them . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: uh , grad c: that 's right . professor b: i 'm just saying that i 'm gon na hafta do some sort of first principles thinking about this . i just at the moment do n't know . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: h no . well , no the bayes the bayes - nets the bayes - nets will be dec specific for each decision . but what i 'd like to be able to do is to have the way that you extract properties , that will go into different bayes - nets , be the uh general . so that if you have sources , you have trajectors and stuff like that , and there 's a language for talking about trajectors , you should n't have to do that differently for uh uh going to something , than for circling it , for uh telling someone else how to go there , grad d: getting out of professor b: whatever it is . so that that , the the decision processes are gon na be different what you 'd really like of course is the same thing you 'd always like which is that you have um a kind of intermediate representation which looks the same o over a bunch of inputs and a bunch of outputs . so all sorts of different tasks and all sorts of different ways of expressing them use a lot of the same mechanism for pulling out what are the fundamental things going on . and that 's that would be the really pretty result . and pushing it one step further , when you get to construction grammar and stuff , what you 'd like to be able to do is say you have this parser which is much fancier than the parser that comes with uh smartkom , i that that actually uses constructions and is able to tell from this construction that there 's uh something about the intent you know , the actual what people wan na do or what they 're referring to and stuff , in independent of whether it about what is this or where is it or something , that you could tell from the construction , you could pull out deep semantic information which you 're gon na use in a general way . so that 's the you might . you might . you might be able to to uh say that this i this is the kind of construction in which the there 's let 's say there 's a uh cont there the the land the construction implies the there 's a con this thing is being viewed as a container . ok . so just from this local construction you know that you 're gon na hafta treat it as a container you might as well go off and get that information . and that may effect the way you process everything else . so if you say `` how do i get into the castle `` ok , then um or , you know , `` what is there in the castle `` or so there 's all sorts of things you might ask that involve the castle as a container and you 'd like to have this orthogonal so that anytime the castle 's referred to as a container , you crank up the appropriate stuff . independent of what the goal is , and independent of what the surrounding language is . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: alright , so that 's that 's the that 's the thesis level grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: uh grad d: it 's unfortunate also that english has sort of got rid of most of its spatial adverbs because they 're really fancy then , in in for these kinds of analysis . but uh . professor b: well , you have prepositional phrases that grad d: yeah , but they 're they 're easier for parsers . professor b: right . grad d: parsers can pick those up but but the with the spatial adverbs , they have a tough time . because the mean the semantics are very complex in that . professor b: right . grad d: ok , yeah ? i had one more thing . i do n't remember . i just forgot it again . no . oh yeah , b but an architecture like this would also enable us maybe to to throw this away and and replace it with something else , or whatever , so that we have so that this is sort of the representational formats we 're we 're we 're talking about that are independent of the problem , that generalize over those problems , and are oh , t of a higher quality than an any actual whatever um belief - net , or `` x `` that we may use for the decision making , ultimately . should be decoupled , yeah . ok . professor b: right . so , are we gon na be meeting here from now on ? i 'm i 'm happy to do that . we we had talked about it , cuz you have th th the display and everything , that seems fine . grad d: yeah , um , liz also asks whether we 're gon na have presentations every time . i do n't think we will need to do that but it 's professor b: right . grad d: so far i think it was nice as a visual aid for some things and and professor b: oh yeah . no i i think it 's worth it to ass to meet here to bring this , and assume that something may come up that we wan na look at . grad d: yeah . professor b: i mean . why not . grad d: and um . yeah , that was my professor b: she was good . litonya was good . grad d: yeah ? the uh um , she w she was definitely good in the sense that she she showed us some of the weaknesses professor b: right . grad d: and um also the um the fact that she was a real subject you know , is is professor b: right . yeah , and and and yeah and and she took it seriously and stuff l no , it was great . grad d: yeah . professor b: yeah . grad d: so i think that um i mean , w looking just looking at this data , listening to it , what can we get out of it in terms of our problem , for example , is , you know , she actually m said you know , she never s just spoke about entering , she just wanted to get someplace , and she said for buying stuff . nuh ? so this is definitely interesting , and grad c: yeah , right . grad d: um , and in the other case , where she wanted to look at the stuff at the graffiti , also , of course , not in the sentence `` how do you get there ? `` was pretty standard . nuh ? except that there was a nice anaphora , you know , for pointing at what she talked about before , and there she was talking about looking at pictures that are painted inside a wall on walls , so grad c: right . grad d: actually , you 'd need a lot of world knowledge . this would have been a classical um uh `` tango `` , actually . um , because graffiti is usually found on the outside and not on the inside , grad c: yeah . grad d: but ok . so the mistake { comment } would have make a mistake the system would have made a mistake here . grad c: yep . professor b: click ? alright .

the team was concerned that the combinatorial input that would result from the various linguistic and contextual schemas would be enormous for the bayes net . the professor suggested that it 's best to narrow down the decision variables , perhaps by studying the trade-offs between different input factors . the team thought that perhaps they could keep the kinds of objects in the environment to a small subset and make rules governing actions around those objects .

what did the professor think about controlling the size of the combinatorial input ? </s> grad a: hey , you 're not supposed to be drinking in here dude . grad d: ok . grad a: do we have to read them that slowly ? ok . sounded like a robot . um , this is t grad c: ok . grad a: when you read the numbers it kind of reminded me of beat poetry . grad d: i tried to go for the ee cummings sort of feeling , but grad a: three three six zero zero . four two zero zero one seven . that 's what i think of when i think of beat poetry . grad c: beat poetry . grad a: you ever seen `` so i married an axe murderer `` ? grad c: uh parts of it . grad d: mm - hmm . grad a: there 's a part wh there 's parts when he 's doing beat poetry . grad c: oh yeah ? grad a: and he talks like that . that 's why i thi that uh probably is why i think of it that way . grad d: hmm . no , i did n't see that movie . who did who made that ? grad a: mike meyers is the guy . grad d: oh . ok . grad a: it - it 's his uh it 's his cute romantic comedy . that 's that 's that 's his cute romantic comedy , yeah . the other thing that 's real funny , i 'll spoil it for you . is when he 's he works in a coffee shop , in san francisco , and uh he 's sitting there on this couch and they bring him this massive cup of espresso , and he 's like `` excuse me i ordered the large espresso ? `` grad d: uh . we 're having , a tiramisu tasting contest this weekend . grad a: wait do are y so you 're trying to decide who 's the best taster of tiramisu ? grad d: no ? um . there was a a a fierce argument that broke out over whose tiramisu might be the best and so we decided to have a contest where those people who claim to make good tiramisu make them , grad a: ah . grad d: and then we got a panel of impartial judges that will taste do a blind taste and then vote . grad a: hmm . grad d: should be fun . grad a: seems like seems like you could put a s magic special ingredient in , so that everyone know which one was yours . then , if you were to bribe them , you could uh grad d: mm - hmm . well , i was thinking if um y you guys have plans for sunday ? we 're we 're not it 's probably going to be this sunday , but um we 're sort of working with the weather here because we also want to combine it with some barbecue activity where we just fire it up and what whoever brings whatever you know , can throw it on there . so only the tiramisu is free , nothing else . grad a: well , i 'm going back to visit my parents this weekend , so , i 'll be out of town . grad d: so you 're going to the west bay then ? no , grad a: no , the south bay , grad d: south bay ? grad a: yeah . grad d: south bay . grad c: well , i should be free , so . grad d: ok , i 'll let you know . grad c: ok . grad a: we are . is nancy s uh gon na show up ? mmm . wonder if these things ever emit a very , like , piercing screech right in your ear ? grad d: they are gon na get more comfortable headsets . they already ordered them . ok . grad c: uh grad d: let 's get started . the uh should i go first , with the uh , um , data . can i have the remote control . thank you . ok . so . on friday we had our wizard test data test and um these are some of the results . this was the introduction . i actually uh , even though liz was uh kind enough to offer to be the first subject , i sort of felt that she knew too much , so i asked uh litonya . just on the spur of the moment , and she was uh kind enough to uh serve as the first subject . professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: so , this is what she saw as part of as uh for instr introduction , this is what she had to read aloud . uh , that was really difficult for her and uh grad c: because of l all the names , you mean ? grad d: the names and um this was the uh first three tasks she had to to master after she called the system , and um then of course the system broke down , and those were the l uh uh i should say the system was supposed to break down and then um these were the remaining three tasks that she was going to solve , with a human um . there are here are uh the results . mmm . and i will not we will skip the reading now . d um . and um . the reading was five minutes , exactly . and now comes the this is the phone - in phase of grad c: wait , can i i have a question . so . so there 's no system , right ? like , there was a wizard for both uh both parts , is this right ? grad d: yeah . it was bo it both times the same person . grad c: ok . grad d: one time , pretending to be a system , one time , to pretending to be a human , which is actually not pretending . grad c: ok . and she did n't grad d: i should grad c: i mean . well . is n't this kind of obvious when it says `` ok now you 're talking to a human `` and then the human has the same voice ? grad d: no no no . we u wait . ok , good question , but uh you you just wait and see . grad c: ok . grad d: it 's you 're gon na l learn . and um the wizard sometimes will not be audible , because she was actually they there was some uh lapse in the um wireless , we have to move her closer . grad a: is she mispronouncing `` anlage `` ? is it `` anlaga `` or `` anlunga `` grad d: they 're mispronouncing everything , grad a: ok . grad d: but it 's this is the system breaking down , actually . `` did i call europe ? `` so , this is it . well , if we we um professor b: so , are are you trying to record this meeting ? grad d: there was a strange reflex . i have a headache . i 'm really sort of out of it . ok , the uh lessons learned . the reading needs to be shorter . five minutes is just too long . um , that was already anticipated by some people suggested that if we just have bullets here , they 're gon na not they 're subjects are probably not gon na going to follow the order . and uh she did not . grad c: really ? grad d: she no . grad c: oh , it 's surprising . grad d: she she jumped around quite a bit . professor b: s so if you just number them `` one `` , `` two `` , `` three `` it 's grad d: yeah , and make it sort of clear in the uh professor b: ok . right . grad d: um . we need to so that 's one thing . and we need a better introduction for the wizard . that is something that fey actually thought of a in the last second that sh the system should introduce itself , when it 's called . professor b: mm - hmm . true . grad d: and um , um , another suggestion , by liz , was that we uh , through subjects , switch the tasks . so when when they have task - one with the computer , the next person should have task - one with a human , and so forth . professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: so we get nice um data for that . um , we have to refine the tasks more and more , which of course we have n't done at all , so far , in order to avoid this rephrasing , so where , even though w we do n't tell the person `` ask blah - blah - blah - blah - blah `` they still try , or at least litonya tried to um repeat as much of that text as possible . grad c: say exactly what 's on there ? yeah . grad d: and uh my suggestion is of course we we keep the wizard , because i think she did a wonderful job , professor b: great . grad d: in the sense that she responded quite nicely to things that were not asked for , `` how much is a t a bus ticket and a transfer `` so this is gon na happen all the time , we d you can never be sure . professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: um . johno pointed out that uh we have maybe a grammatical gender problem there with wizard . grad a: yes . grad d: so um . grad a: i was n't was n't sure whether wizard was the correct term for uh `` not a man `` . grad c: there 's no female equivalent of grad d: but uh grad a: are you sure ? grad c: no , i do n't know . professor b: right . grad c: not that i know of . grad d: well , there is witch and warlock , grad a: yeah , that 's so @ @ . professor b: right . grad c: yeah , that 's what i was thinking , but grad d: and uh professor b: right . uh . grad d: ok . and um so , some some work needs to be done , but i think we can uh and this , and in case no you had n't seen it , this is what litonya looked at during the uh um while taking the while partaking in the data collection . grad c: ah . professor b: ok , great . so first of all , i agree that um we should hire fey , and start paying her . probably pay for the time she 's put in as well . um , do you know exactly how to do that , or is uh lila i mean , you know what exactly do we do to to put her on the payroll in some way ? grad d: i 'm completely clueless , but i 'm willing to learn . professor b: ok . well , you 'll have to . right . so anyway , um grad d: n professor b: so why do n't you uh ask lila and see what she says about you know exactly what we do for someone in th grad d: student - type worker , professor b: well , yeah she 's un she 's not a a student , grad d: or ? professor b: she just graduated but anyway . grad d: hmm . professor b: so i if yeah , i agree , she sounded fine , she a actually was uh , more uh , present and stuff than than she was in conversation , so she did a better job than i would have guessed from just talking to her . grad d: yeah . professor b: so i think that 's great . grad d: this is sort of what i gave her , so this is for example h how to get to the student prison , professor b: yeah . grad d: and i did n't even spell it out here and in some cases i i spelled it out a little bit um more thoroughly , professor b: right . grad d: this is the information on on the low sunken castle , and the amphitheater that never came up , and um , so i if we give her even more um , instruments to work with i think the results are gon na be even better . professor b: oh , yeah , and then of course as she does it she 'll she 'll learn @ @ . so that 's great . um and also if she 's willing to take on the job of organizing all those subjects and stuff that would be wonderful . grad d: mmm . professor b: and , uh she 's actually she 's going to graduate school in a kind of an experimental paradigm , so i think this is all just fine in terms of h her learning things she 's gon na need to know uh , to do her career . grad d: mmm . professor b: so , i my guess is she 'll be r r quite happy to take on that job . and , so grad d: yep . yeah she she did n't explicitly state that so . professor b: great . grad d: and um i told her that we gon na um figure out a meeting time in the near future to refine the tasks and s look for the potential sources to find people . she also agrees that you know if it 's all just gon na be students the data is gon na be less valuable because of that so . professor b: well , as i say there is this s set of people next door , it 's not hard to grad d: we 're already yeah . professor b: uh grad d: however , we may run into a problem with a reading task there . and um , we 'll see . professor b: yeah . we could talk to the people who run it and um see if they have a way that they could easily uh tell people that there 's a task , pays ten bucks or something , grad d: mm - hmm . yeah . professor b: but um you have to be comfortable reading relatively complicated stuff . and and there 'll probably be self - selection to some extent . grad d: mmm . yep . professor b: uh , so that 's good . um . now , i signed us up for the wednesday slot , and part of what we should do is this . grad d: ok . professor b: so , my idea on that was uh , partly we 'll talk about system stuff for the computer scientists , but partly i did want it to get the linguists involved in some of this issue about what the task is and all um you know , what the dialogue is , and what 's going on linguistically , because to the extent that we can get them contributing , that will be good . so this issue about you know re - formulating things , grad d: yep . professor b: maybe we can get some of the linguists sufficiently interested that they 'll help us with it , uh , other linguists , if you 're a linguist , but in any case , grad d: yep . professor b: um , the linguistics students and stuff . so my idea on on wednesday is partly to uh you i mean , what you did today would i is just fine . you just uh do `` this is what we did , and here 's the thing , and here 's s some of the dialogue and and so forth . `` but then , the other thing of course is we should um give the computer scientists some idea of of what 's going on with the system design , and where we think the belief - nets fit in and where the pieces are and stuff like that . is is this make sense to everybody ? grad d: yep . professor b: yeah . so , i do n't i do n't think it 's worth a lot of work , particularly on your part , to to to make a big presentation . i do n't think you should you do n't have to make any new uh powerpoint or anything . i think we got plenty of stuff to talk about . and , then um just see how a discussion goes . grad d: mm - hmm . sounds good . the uh other two things is um we 've can have johno tell us a little about this professor b: great . grad d: and we also have a l little bit on the interface , m - three - l enhancement , and then um that was it , i think . grad a: so , what i did for this this is uh , a pedagogical belief - net because i was i i took i tried to conceptually do what you were talking about with the nodes that you could expand out so what i did was i took i made these dummy nodes called trajector - in and trajector - out that would isolate the things related to the trajector . professor b: yep . grad a: and then there were the things with the source and the path and the goal . professor b: yep . grad a: and i separated them out . and then i um did similar things for our our net to uh with the context and the discourse and whatnot , um , so we could sort of isolate them or whatever in terms of the the top layer . professor b: mm - hmm . grad a: and then the bottom layer is just the mode . so . professor b: so , let 's let 's yeah , i do n't understand it . let 's go slide all the way up so we see what the p the p very bottom looks like , or is that it ? grad a: yeah , there 's just one more node and it says `` mode `` which is the decision between the grad d: yeah . professor b: ok , great . alright . grad a: so basically all i did was i took the last belief - net professor b: so mm - hmm . grad a: and i grouped things according to what how i thought they would fit in to uh image schemas that would be related . and the two that i came up with were trajector - landmark and then source - path - goal as initial ones . professor b: yep . mm - hmm . grad a: and then i said well , uh the trajector would be the person in this case probably . professor b: right , yep . grad a: um , you know , we have we have the concept of what their intention was , whether they were trying to tour or do business or whatever , professor b: right . grad a: or they were hurried . that 's kind of related to that . and then um in terms of the source , the things uh the only things that we had on there i believe were whether oh actually , i kind of , i might have added these cuz i do n't think we talked too much about the source in the old one but uh whether the where i 'm currently at is a landmark might have a bearing on whether grad d: mm - hmm . grad a: or the `` landmark - iness `` of where i 'm currently at . and `` usefulness `` is basi basically means is that an institutional facility like a town hall or something like that that 's not something that you 'd visit for tourist 's tourism 's sake or whatever . `` travel constraints `` would be something like you know , maybe they said they can they only wan na take a bus or something like that , right ? and then those are somewhat related to the path , professor b: mm - hmm . grad a: so that would determine whether we 'd could take we would be telling them to go to the bus stop or versus walking there directly . um , `` goal `` . similar things as the source except they also added whether the entity was closed and whether they have somehow marked that is was the final destination . um , and then if you go up , robert , yeah , so um , in terms of context , what we had currently said was whether they were a businessman or a tourist of some other person . um , discourse was related to whether they had asked about open hours or whether they asked about where the entrance was or the admission fee , or something along those lines . professor b: mm - hmm . grad a: uh , prosody i do n't really i 'm not really sure what prosody means , in this context , so i just made up you know whether whether what they say is or h how they say it is is that . professor b: right , ok . grad a: um , the parse would be what verb they chose , and then maybe how they modified it , in the sense of whether they said `` i need to get there quickly `` or whatever . professor b: mm - hmm . grad a: and um , in terms of world knowledge , this would just basically be like opening and closing times of things , the time of day it is , and whatnot . grad d: what 's `` tourbook `` ? grad a: tourbook ? that would be , i do n't know , the `` landmark - iness `` of things , grad d: mm - hmm . grad a: whether it 's in the tourbook or not . professor b: ch - ch - ch - ch . now . alright , so i understand what 's what you got . i do n't yet understand how you would use it . so let me see if i can ask grad a: well , this is not a working bayes - net . professor b: a s right . no , i understand that , but but um so , what let 's slide back up again and see start at the at the bottom and oop - bo - doop - boop - boop . yeah . so , you could imagine w uh , go ahead , you were about to go up there and point to something . grad a: well i ok , i just say what you were gon na say . professor b: good , do it ! grad a: ok . professor b: no no , go do it . grad a: uh i i 'd no , i was gon na wait until professor b: oh , ok . so , so if you if we made if we wanted to make it into a a real uh bayes - net , that is , you know , with fill you know , actually f uh , fill it @ @ in , then uh grad a: so we 'd have to get rid of this and connect these things directly to the mode . professor b: well , i do n't that 's an issue . so , um grad a: cuz i do n't understand how it would work otherwise . professor b: well , here 's the problem . and and uh bhaskara and i was talking about this a little earlier today is , if we just do this , we could wind up with a huge uh , combinatoric input to the mode thing . and uh grad a: well i oh yeah , i unders i understand that , i just uh it 's hard for me to imagine how he could get around that . professor b: well , i but that 's what we have to do . grad a: ok . professor b: ok , so , so , uh . there there are a variety of ways of doing it . uh . let me just mention something that i do n't want to pursue today which is there are technical ways of doing it , uh i i slipped a paper to bhaskara and about noisy - or 's and noisy - maxes and there 're ways to uh sort of back off on the purity of your bayes - net - edness . grad a: mmm . professor b: uh , so . if you co you could ima and i now i do n't know that any of those actually apply in this case , but there is some technology you could try to apply . grad a: so it 's possible that we could do something like a summary node of some sort that ok . professor b: yeah . yeah . and , um so . grad a: so in that case , the sum we 'd have we i mean , these would n't be the summary nodes . we 'd have the summary nodes like where the things were i guess maybe if thi if things were related to business or some other professor b: yeah . grad a: yeah . professor b: so what i was gon na say is is maybe a good at this point is to try to informally i mean , not necessarily in th in this meeting , but to try to informally think about what the decision variables are . so , if you have some bottom line uh decision about which mode , you know , what are the most relevant things . grad a: mmm . professor b: and the other trick , which is not a technical trick , it 's kind of a knowledge engineering trick , is to make the n each node sufficiently narrow that you do n't get this combinatorics . so that if you decided that you could characterize the decision as a trade - off between three factors , whatever they may be , ok ? then you could say `` aha , let 's have these three factors `` , ok ? and maybe a binary version f for each , or some relatively compact decision node just above the final one . grad a: mmm . professor b: and then the question would be if if those are the things that you care about , uh can you make a relatively compact way of getting from the various inputs to the things you care about . so that y so that , you know , you can sort of try to do a knowledge engineering thing grad a: ok . professor b: given that we 're not gon na screw with the technology and just always use uh sort of orthodox bayes - nets , then we have a knowledge engineering little problem of how do we do that . um and grad a: so what i kind of need to do is to take this one and the old one and merge them together ? professor b: `` eh - eh - eh . `` yeah . grad a: so that professor b: well , mmm , something . i mean , so uh , robert has thought about this problem f for a long time , cuz he 's had these examples kicking around , so he may have some good intuition about you know , what are the crucial things . grad a: mmm . professor b: and , um , i understand where this the uh this is a way of playing with this abs source - path - goal trajector exp uh uh abstraction and and sort of sh displaying it in a particular way . grad a: yeah . professor b: uh , i do n't think our friends uh on wednesday are going to be able to well , maybe they will . well , let me think about whether whether i think we can present this to them or not . um , uh , grad d: well , i think this is still , i mean , ad - hoc . this is sort of th the second version and i i i look at this maybe just as a , you know , a a whatever , uml diagram or , you know , as just a uh screen shot , not really as a bayes - net as john johno said . grad a: we could actually , y yeah draw it in a different way , in the sense that it would make it more abstract . grad d: yeah . but the uh the the nice thing is that you know , it just is a is a visual aid for thinking about these things which has comple clearly have to be specified m more carefully professor b: alright , well , le let me think about this some more , grad d: and uh professor b: and uh see if we can find a way to present this to this linguists group that that is helpful to them . grad d: i mean , ultimately we we may w w we regard this as sort of an exercise in in thinking about the problem and maybe a first version of uh a module , if you wan na call it that , that you can ask , that you can give input and it it 'll uh throw the dice for you , uh throw the die for you , because um i integrated this into the existing smartkom system in in the same way as much the same way we can um sort of have this uh this thing . close this down . so if this is what m - three - l um will look like and what it 'll give us , um and a very simple thing . we have an action that he wants to go from somewhere , which is some type of object , to someplace . professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: and this these uh this changed now only um , um it 's doing it twice now because it already did it once . um , we 'll add some action type , which in this case is `` approach `` and could be , you know , more refined uh in many ways . professor b: mm - hmm . good . grad d: or we can uh have something where the uh goal is a public place and it will give us then of course an action type of the type `` enter `` . so this is just based on this one um , on this one feature , and that 's that 's about all you can do . and so in the f if this pla if the object type um here is is a m is a landmark , of course it 'll be um `` vista `` . and um this is about as much as we can do if we do n't w if we want to avoid uh uh a huge combinatorial explosion where we specify `` ok , if it 's this and this but that is not the case `` , and so forth , it just gets really really messy . professor b: ok , i 'm sorry . you 're you 're grad d: hmm ? professor b: it was much too quick for me . ok , so let me see if i understand what you 're saying . so , i i do understand that uh you can take the m - three - l and add not and it w and you need to do this , for sure , we have to add , you know , not too much about um object types and stuff , and what i think you did is add some rules of the style that are already there that say `` if it 's of type `` landmark `` , then you take you 're gon na take a picture of it . `` grad d: exactly . professor b: f full stop , i mean , that 's what you do . ev - every landmark you take a picture of , grad d: every public place you enter , and statue you want to go as near as possible . professor b: you enter you approach . ok . uh , and certainly you can add rules like that to the existing smartkom system . and you just did , right ? ok . grad d: yeah . and it it would do us no good . professor b: ah . grad d: that ultimately . professor b: well . so , s well , and let 's think about this . grad d: w professor b: um , that 's a that 's another kind of baseline case , that 's another sort of thing `` ok , here 's a another kind of minimal uh way of tackling this `` . add extra properties , a deterministic rule for every property you have an action , `` pppt ! `` you do that . um , then the question would be uh now , if that 's all you 're doing , then you can get the types from the ontology , ok ? because that 's all you 're all you 're using is this type the types in the ontology and you 're done . grad d: hmm ? professor b: right ? so we do n't we do n't use the discourse , we do n't use the context , we do n't do any of those things . grad d: no . professor b: alright , but that 's but that 's ok , and i mean it it 's again a kind of one minimal extension of the existing things . and that 's something the uh smartkom people themselves would they 'd say `` sure , that 's no problem you know , no problem to add types to the ont `` right ? grad d: yeah . no . and this is just in order to exemplify what what we can do very , very easily is , um we have this this silly uh interface and we have the rules that are as banal as of we just saw , and we have our content . professor b: hmm . grad d: now , the content i whi which is sort of what what we see here , which is sort of the vista , schema , source , path , goal , whatever . professor b: yeah . yeah . grad d: this will um be um a job to find ways of writing down image schema , x - schema , constructions , in some some form , and have this be in a in a in the content , loosely called `` constructicon `` . and the rules we want to throw away completely . and um and here is exactly where what 's gon na be replaced with our bayes - net , which is exactly getting the input feeding into here . this decides whether it 's an whether action the the enter , the vista , or the whatever professor b: uh , `` approach `` , you called it , i think this time . grad d: uh approach um construction should be activated , ie just pasted in . professor b: that 's what you said yeah , that 's fine . yeah , but right . but it 's not construction there , it 's action . construction is a d is a different story . grad d: yeah . grad a: right . this is uh so what we 'd be generating would be a reference to a semantic uh like parameters for the for the x - schema ? professor b: for for for yes . grad a: ok . professor b: yeah . so that that uh i if you had the generalized `` go `` x - schema and you wanted to specialize it to these three ones , then you would have to supply the parameters . grad a: right . professor b: and then uh , although we have n't worried about this yet , you might wan na worry about something that would go to the gis and use that to actually get you know , detailed route planning . so , you know , where do you do take a picture of it and stuff like that . grad a: mm - hmm . professor b: but that 's not it 's not the immediate problem . grad a: right . professor b: but , presumably that that that functionality 's there when when we grad a: so the immediate problem is just deciding w which grad d: aspects of the x - schema to add . professor b: yeah , so the pro the immediate problem is is back t t to what you were what you are doing with the belief - net . grad a: yeah . professor b: you know , uh what are we going to use to make this decision grad a: right and then , once we 've made the decision , how do we put that into the content ? professor b: yeah . right . right . well , that that actually is relatively easy in this case . grad a: ok . professor b: the harder problem is we decide what we want to use , how are we gon na get it ? and that the the that 's the hardest problem . so , the hardest problem is how are you going to get this information from some combination of the what the person says and the context and the ontology . the h so , i think that 's the hardest problem at the moment is is grad a: ok . professor b: where are you gon na how are you gon na g get this information . um , and that 's so , getting back to here , uh , we have a d a technical problem with the belief - nets that we we do n't want all the com grad a: there 's just too many factors right now . professor b: too many factors if we if we allow them to just go combinatorially . grad a: right . professor b: so we wan na think about which ones we really care about and what they really most depend on , and can we c you know , clean this this up to the point where it grad a: so what we really wan na do i cuz this is really just the three layer net , we wan na b make it expand it out into more layers basically ? professor b: right . we might . uh , i mean that that 's certainly one thing we can do . uh , it 's true that the way you have this , a lot of the times you have what you 're having is the values rather than the variable . so uh grad a: right . so instead of in instead it should really be just be `` intention `` as a node instead of `` intention business `` or `` intention tour `` . professor b: ok ? so you yeah , right , and then it would have values , uh , `` tour `` , `` business `` , or uh `` hurried `` . grad a: right . professor b: but then but i it still some knowledge design to do , about i how do you wan na break this up , what really matters . grad a: right . professor b: i mean , it 's fine . you know , we have to it 's it 's iterative . we 're gon na have to work with it some . grad a: i think what was going through my mind when i did it was someone could both have a business intention and a touring intention and the probabilities of both of them happening at the same time professor b: well , you you could do that . and it 's perfectly ok to uh insist that that , you know , th um , they add up to one , but that there 's uh that that it does n't have to be one zero zero . grad a: mmm . ok . professor b: ok . so you could have the conditional p so the each of these things is gon na be a a a probability . so whenever there 's a choice , uh so like landmark - ness and usefulness , grad a: well , see i do n't think those would be mutually professor b: ok grad a: it seems like something could both be professor b: absolutely right . grad a: ok . professor b: and so that you might want to then have those b th - then they may have to be separate . they may not be able to be values of the same variable . grad d: object type , mm - hmm . professor b: so that 's but again , this is this is the sort of knowledge design you have to go through . right . it 's you know , it 's great is is , you know , as one step toward uh toward where we wan na go . grad d: also it strikes me that we we m may want to approach the point where we can sort of try to find a uh , a specification for some interface , here that um takes the normal m - three - l , looks at it . then we discussed in our pre - edu edu meeting um how to ask the ontology , what to ask the ontology um the fact that we can pretend we have one , make a dummy until we get the real one , and so um we we may wan na decide we can do this from here , but we also could do it um you know if we have a a a belief - net interface . so the belief - net takes as input , a vector , right ? of stuff . and it yeah . and um it output is whatever , as well . but this information is just m - three - l , and then we want to look up some more stuff in the ontology and we want to look up some more stuff in the maybe we want to ask the real world , maybe you want to look something up in the grs , but also we definitely want to look up in the dialogue history um some s some stuff . based on we we have uh i was just made some examples from the ontology and so we have for example some information there that the town hall is both a a a building and it has doors and stuff like this , but it is also an institution , so it has a mayor and so forth and so forth and we get relations out of it and once we have them , we can use that information to look in the dialogue history , `` were any of these things that that are part of the town hall as an institution mentioned ? `` , professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: `` were any of these that make the town hall a building mentioned ? `` , grad c: right . grad d: and so forth , and maybe draw some inferences on that . so this may be a a sort of a process of two to three steps before we get our vector , that we feed into the belief - net , professor b: yeah . i think that 's i think that 's exactly right . grad d: and then professor b: there will be rules , but they are n't rules that come to final decisions , they 're rules that gather information for a decision process . yeah , grad d: yeah . professor b: no i think that 's that 's just fine . uh , yeah . so they 'll they presumably there 'll be a thread or process or something that `` agent `` , yeah , `` agent `` , whatever you wan wan na say , yeah , that uh is rule - driven , and can can uh can do things like that . and um there 's an issue about whether there will be that 'll be the same agent and the one that then goes off and uh carries out the decision , so it probably will . my guess is it 'll be the same basic agent that um can go off and get information , run it through a a c this belief - net that turn a crank in the belief - net , that 'll come out with s uh more another vector , ok , which can then be uh applied at what we would call the simulation or action end . so you now know what you 're gon na do and that may actually involve getting more information . so on once you pull that out , it could be that that says `` ah ! now that we know that we gon na go ask the ontology something else . `` ok ? now that we know that it 's a bus trip , ok ? we did n't we did n't need to know beforehand , uh how long the bus trip takes or whatever , but but now that we know that 's the way it 's coming out then we got ta go find out more . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: so i think that 's ok . grad d: mm - hmm . so this is actually , s if if we were to build something that is um , and , uh , i had one more thing , the it needs to do yeah . i think we i i can come up with a a code for a module that we call the `` cognitive dispatcher `` , which does nothing , professor b: ok . grad d: but it looks of complect object trees and decides how are there parts missing that need to be filled out , there 's this is maybe something that this module can do , something that this module can do and then collect uh sub - objects and then recombine them and put them together . so maybe this is actually some some useful tool that we can use to rewrite it , and uh get this part , professor b: oh , ok . uh . grad d: then . yeah . professor b: i confess , i 'm still not completely comfortable with the overall story . um . i i this this is not a complaint , this is a promise to do more work . so i 'm gon na hafta think about it some more . um . in particular see what we 'd like to do , and and this has been implicit in the discussion , is to do this in such a way that you get a lot of re - use . so . what you 're trying to get out of this deep co cognitive linguistics is the fact that w if you know about source source , paths and goals , and nnn { comment } all this sort of stuff , that a lot of this is the same , for different tasks . and that uh there 's there 's some some important generalities that you 're getting , so that you do n't take each and every one of these tasks and hafta re - do it . and i do n't yet see how that goes . alright . grad d: there 're no primitives upon which uh professor b: u u what are the primitives , and how do you break this grad d: yeah . professor b: so i y i 'm just just there saying eee { comment } well you i know how to do any individual case , right ? but i do n't yet see what 's the really interesting question is can you use uh deep uh cognitive linguistics to get powerful generalizations . and grad d: yep . professor b: um grad d: maybe we sho should we a add then the `` what 's this ? `` domain ? n i mean , we have to `` how do i get to x `` . then we also have the `` what 's this ? `` domain , where we get some slightly different professor b: could . uh . grad c: right . grad d: um johno , actually , does not allow us to call them `` intentions `` anymore . professor b: yeah . grad d: so he he dislikes the term . professor b: well , i i do n't like the term either , so i have n i uh i i y w i i it uh grad d: but um , i 'm sure the `` what 's this ? `` questions also create some interesting x - schema aspects . professor b: could be . i 'm not a i 'm not op particularly opposed to adding that or any other task , grad d: so . professor b: i mean , eventually we 're gon na want a whole range of them . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: uh , grad c: that 's right . professor b: i 'm just saying that i 'm gon na hafta do some sort of first principles thinking about this . i just at the moment do n't know . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: h no . well , no the bayes the bayes - nets the bayes - nets will be dec specific for each decision . but what i 'd like to be able to do is to have the way that you extract properties , that will go into different bayes - nets , be the uh general . so that if you have sources , you have trajectors and stuff like that , and there 's a language for talking about trajectors , you should n't have to do that differently for uh uh going to something , than for circling it , for uh telling someone else how to go there , grad d: getting out of professor b: whatever it is . so that that , the the decision processes are gon na be different what you 'd really like of course is the same thing you 'd always like which is that you have um a kind of intermediate representation which looks the same o over a bunch of inputs and a bunch of outputs . so all sorts of different tasks and all sorts of different ways of expressing them use a lot of the same mechanism for pulling out what are the fundamental things going on . and that 's that would be the really pretty result . and pushing it one step further , when you get to construction grammar and stuff , what you 'd like to be able to do is say you have this parser which is much fancier than the parser that comes with uh smartkom , i that that actually uses constructions and is able to tell from this construction that there 's uh something about the intent you know , the actual what people wan na do or what they 're referring to and stuff , in independent of whether it about what is this or where is it or something , that you could tell from the construction , you could pull out deep semantic information which you 're gon na use in a general way . so that 's the you might . you might . you might be able to to uh say that this i this is the kind of construction in which the there 's let 's say there 's a uh cont there the the land the construction implies the there 's a con this thing is being viewed as a container . ok . so just from this local construction you know that you 're gon na hafta treat it as a container you might as well go off and get that information . and that may effect the way you process everything else . so if you say `` how do i get into the castle `` ok , then um or , you know , `` what is there in the castle `` or so there 's all sorts of things you might ask that involve the castle as a container and you 'd like to have this orthogonal so that anytime the castle 's referred to as a container , you crank up the appropriate stuff . independent of what the goal is , and independent of what the surrounding language is . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: alright , so that 's that 's the that 's the thesis level grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: uh grad d: it 's unfortunate also that english has sort of got rid of most of its spatial adverbs because they 're really fancy then , in in for these kinds of analysis . but uh . professor b: well , you have prepositional phrases that grad d: yeah , but they 're they 're easier for parsers . professor b: right . grad d: parsers can pick those up but but the with the spatial adverbs , they have a tough time . because the mean the semantics are very complex in that . professor b: right . grad d: ok , yeah ? i had one more thing . i do n't remember . i just forgot it again . no . oh yeah , b but an architecture like this would also enable us maybe to to throw this away and and replace it with something else , or whatever , so that we have so that this is sort of the representational formats we 're we 're we 're talking about that are independent of the problem , that generalize over those problems , and are oh , t of a higher quality than an any actual whatever um belief - net , or `` x `` that we may use for the decision making , ultimately . should be decoupled , yeah . ok . professor b: right . so , are we gon na be meeting here from now on ? i 'm i 'm happy to do that . we we had talked about it , cuz you have th th the display and everything , that seems fine . grad d: yeah , um , liz also asks whether we 're gon na have presentations every time . i do n't think we will need to do that but it 's professor b: right . grad d: so far i think it was nice as a visual aid for some things and and professor b: oh yeah . no i i think it 's worth it to ass to meet here to bring this , and assume that something may come up that we wan na look at . grad d: yeah . professor b: i mean . why not . grad d: and um . yeah , that was my professor b: she was good . litonya was good . grad d: yeah ? the uh um , she w she was definitely good in the sense that she she showed us some of the weaknesses professor b: right . grad d: and um also the um the fact that she was a real subject you know , is is professor b: right . yeah , and and and yeah and and she took it seriously and stuff l no , it was great . grad d: yeah . professor b: yeah . grad d: so i think that um i mean , w looking just looking at this data , listening to it , what can we get out of it in terms of our problem , for example , is , you know , she actually m said you know , she never s just spoke about entering , she just wanted to get someplace , and she said for buying stuff . nuh ? so this is definitely interesting , and grad c: yeah , right . grad d: um , and in the other case , where she wanted to look at the stuff at the graffiti , also , of course , not in the sentence `` how do you get there ? `` was pretty standard . nuh ? except that there was a nice anaphora , you know , for pointing at what she talked about before , and there she was talking about looking at pictures that are painted inside a wall on walls , so grad c: right . grad d: actually , you 'd need a lot of world knowledge . this would have been a classical um uh `` tango `` , actually . um , because graffiti is usually found on the outside and not on the inside , grad c: yeah . grad d: but ok . so the mistake { comment } would have make a mistake the system would have made a mistake here . grad c: yep . professor b: click ? alright .

the professor was the one to raise the issue and suggested that a knowledge engineering trick could be used to narrow down inputs . he thought that perhaps adding deterministic rules to properties that have actions would be helpful and the property types could be retrieved from the ontology .

what did grad d think about managing the size of the combinatorial input ? </s> grad a: hey , you 're not supposed to be drinking in here dude . grad d: ok . grad a: do we have to read them that slowly ? ok . sounded like a robot . um , this is t grad c: ok . grad a: when you read the numbers it kind of reminded me of beat poetry . grad d: i tried to go for the ee cummings sort of feeling , but grad a: three three six zero zero . four two zero zero one seven . that 's what i think of when i think of beat poetry . grad c: beat poetry . grad a: you ever seen `` so i married an axe murderer `` ? grad c: uh parts of it . grad d: mm - hmm . grad a: there 's a part wh there 's parts when he 's doing beat poetry . grad c: oh yeah ? grad a: and he talks like that . that 's why i thi that uh probably is why i think of it that way . grad d: hmm . no , i did n't see that movie . who did who made that ? grad a: mike meyers is the guy . grad d: oh . ok . grad a: it - it 's his uh it 's his cute romantic comedy . that 's that 's that 's his cute romantic comedy , yeah . the other thing that 's real funny , i 'll spoil it for you . is when he 's he works in a coffee shop , in san francisco , and uh he 's sitting there on this couch and they bring him this massive cup of espresso , and he 's like `` excuse me i ordered the large espresso ? `` grad d: uh . we 're having , a tiramisu tasting contest this weekend . grad a: wait do are y so you 're trying to decide who 's the best taster of tiramisu ? grad d: no ? um . there was a a a fierce argument that broke out over whose tiramisu might be the best and so we decided to have a contest where those people who claim to make good tiramisu make them , grad a: ah . grad d: and then we got a panel of impartial judges that will taste do a blind taste and then vote . grad a: hmm . grad d: should be fun . grad a: seems like seems like you could put a s magic special ingredient in , so that everyone know which one was yours . then , if you were to bribe them , you could uh grad d: mm - hmm . well , i was thinking if um y you guys have plans for sunday ? we 're we 're not it 's probably going to be this sunday , but um we 're sort of working with the weather here because we also want to combine it with some barbecue activity where we just fire it up and what whoever brings whatever you know , can throw it on there . so only the tiramisu is free , nothing else . grad a: well , i 'm going back to visit my parents this weekend , so , i 'll be out of town . grad d: so you 're going to the west bay then ? no , grad a: no , the south bay , grad d: south bay ? grad a: yeah . grad d: south bay . grad c: well , i should be free , so . grad d: ok , i 'll let you know . grad c: ok . grad a: we are . is nancy s uh gon na show up ? mmm . wonder if these things ever emit a very , like , piercing screech right in your ear ? grad d: they are gon na get more comfortable headsets . they already ordered them . ok . grad c: uh grad d: let 's get started . the uh should i go first , with the uh , um , data . can i have the remote control . thank you . ok . so . on friday we had our wizard test data test and um these are some of the results . this was the introduction . i actually uh , even though liz was uh kind enough to offer to be the first subject , i sort of felt that she knew too much , so i asked uh litonya . just on the spur of the moment , and she was uh kind enough to uh serve as the first subject . professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: so , this is what she saw as part of as uh for instr introduction , this is what she had to read aloud . uh , that was really difficult for her and uh grad c: because of l all the names , you mean ? grad d: the names and um this was the uh first three tasks she had to to master after she called the system , and um then of course the system broke down , and those were the l uh uh i should say the system was supposed to break down and then um these were the remaining three tasks that she was going to solve , with a human um . there are here are uh the results . mmm . and i will not we will skip the reading now . d um . and um . the reading was five minutes , exactly . and now comes the this is the phone - in phase of grad c: wait , can i i have a question . so . so there 's no system , right ? like , there was a wizard for both uh both parts , is this right ? grad d: yeah . it was bo it both times the same person . grad c: ok . grad d: one time , pretending to be a system , one time , to pretending to be a human , which is actually not pretending . grad c: ok . and she did n't grad d: i should grad c: i mean . well . is n't this kind of obvious when it says `` ok now you 're talking to a human `` and then the human has the same voice ? grad d: no no no . we u wait . ok , good question , but uh you you just wait and see . grad c: ok . grad d: it 's you 're gon na l learn . and um the wizard sometimes will not be audible , because she was actually they there was some uh lapse in the um wireless , we have to move her closer . grad a: is she mispronouncing `` anlage `` ? is it `` anlaga `` or `` anlunga `` grad d: they 're mispronouncing everything , grad a: ok . grad d: but it 's this is the system breaking down , actually . `` did i call europe ? `` so , this is it . well , if we we um professor b: so , are are you trying to record this meeting ? grad d: there was a strange reflex . i have a headache . i 'm really sort of out of it . ok , the uh lessons learned . the reading needs to be shorter . five minutes is just too long . um , that was already anticipated by some people suggested that if we just have bullets here , they 're gon na not they 're subjects are probably not gon na going to follow the order . and uh she did not . grad c: really ? grad d: she no . grad c: oh , it 's surprising . grad d: she she jumped around quite a bit . professor b: s so if you just number them `` one `` , `` two `` , `` three `` it 's grad d: yeah , and make it sort of clear in the uh professor b: ok . right . grad d: um . we need to so that 's one thing . and we need a better introduction for the wizard . that is something that fey actually thought of a in the last second that sh the system should introduce itself , when it 's called . professor b: mm - hmm . true . grad d: and um , um , another suggestion , by liz , was that we uh , through subjects , switch the tasks . so when when they have task - one with the computer , the next person should have task - one with a human , and so forth . professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: so we get nice um data for that . um , we have to refine the tasks more and more , which of course we have n't done at all , so far , in order to avoid this rephrasing , so where , even though w we do n't tell the person `` ask blah - blah - blah - blah - blah `` they still try , or at least litonya tried to um repeat as much of that text as possible . grad c: say exactly what 's on there ? yeah . grad d: and uh my suggestion is of course we we keep the wizard , because i think she did a wonderful job , professor b: great . grad d: in the sense that she responded quite nicely to things that were not asked for , `` how much is a t a bus ticket and a transfer `` so this is gon na happen all the time , we d you can never be sure . professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: um . johno pointed out that uh we have maybe a grammatical gender problem there with wizard . grad a: yes . grad d: so um . grad a: i was n't was n't sure whether wizard was the correct term for uh `` not a man `` . grad c: there 's no female equivalent of grad d: but uh grad a: are you sure ? grad c: no , i do n't know . professor b: right . grad c: not that i know of . grad d: well , there is witch and warlock , grad a: yeah , that 's so @ @ . professor b: right . grad c: yeah , that 's what i was thinking , but grad d: and uh professor b: right . uh . grad d: ok . and um so , some some work needs to be done , but i think we can uh and this , and in case no you had n't seen it , this is what litonya looked at during the uh um while taking the while partaking in the data collection . grad c: ah . professor b: ok , great . so first of all , i agree that um we should hire fey , and start paying her . probably pay for the time she 's put in as well . um , do you know exactly how to do that , or is uh lila i mean , you know what exactly do we do to to put her on the payroll in some way ? grad d: i 'm completely clueless , but i 'm willing to learn . professor b: ok . well , you 'll have to . right . so anyway , um grad d: n professor b: so why do n't you uh ask lila and see what she says about you know exactly what we do for someone in th grad d: student - type worker , professor b: well , yeah she 's un she 's not a a student , grad d: or ? professor b: she just graduated but anyway . grad d: hmm . professor b: so i if yeah , i agree , she sounded fine , she a actually was uh , more uh , present and stuff than than she was in conversation , so she did a better job than i would have guessed from just talking to her . grad d: yeah . professor b: so i think that 's great . grad d: this is sort of what i gave her , so this is for example h how to get to the student prison , professor b: yeah . grad d: and i did n't even spell it out here and in some cases i i spelled it out a little bit um more thoroughly , professor b: right . grad d: this is the information on on the low sunken castle , and the amphitheater that never came up , and um , so i if we give her even more um , instruments to work with i think the results are gon na be even better . professor b: oh , yeah , and then of course as she does it she 'll she 'll learn @ @ . so that 's great . um and also if she 's willing to take on the job of organizing all those subjects and stuff that would be wonderful . grad d: mmm . professor b: and , uh she 's actually she 's going to graduate school in a kind of an experimental paradigm , so i think this is all just fine in terms of h her learning things she 's gon na need to know uh , to do her career . grad d: mmm . professor b: so , i my guess is she 'll be r r quite happy to take on that job . and , so grad d: yep . yeah she she did n't explicitly state that so . professor b: great . grad d: and um i told her that we gon na um figure out a meeting time in the near future to refine the tasks and s look for the potential sources to find people . she also agrees that you know if it 's all just gon na be students the data is gon na be less valuable because of that so . professor b: well , as i say there is this s set of people next door , it 's not hard to grad d: we 're already yeah . professor b: uh grad d: however , we may run into a problem with a reading task there . and um , we 'll see . professor b: yeah . we could talk to the people who run it and um see if they have a way that they could easily uh tell people that there 's a task , pays ten bucks or something , grad d: mm - hmm . yeah . professor b: but um you have to be comfortable reading relatively complicated stuff . and and there 'll probably be self - selection to some extent . grad d: mmm . yep . professor b: uh , so that 's good . um . now , i signed us up for the wednesday slot , and part of what we should do is this . grad d: ok . professor b: so , my idea on that was uh , partly we 'll talk about system stuff for the computer scientists , but partly i did want it to get the linguists involved in some of this issue about what the task is and all um you know , what the dialogue is , and what 's going on linguistically , because to the extent that we can get them contributing , that will be good . so this issue about you know re - formulating things , grad d: yep . professor b: maybe we can get some of the linguists sufficiently interested that they 'll help us with it , uh , other linguists , if you 're a linguist , but in any case , grad d: yep . professor b: um , the linguistics students and stuff . so my idea on on wednesday is partly to uh you i mean , what you did today would i is just fine . you just uh do `` this is what we did , and here 's the thing , and here 's s some of the dialogue and and so forth . `` but then , the other thing of course is we should um give the computer scientists some idea of of what 's going on with the system design , and where we think the belief - nets fit in and where the pieces are and stuff like that . is is this make sense to everybody ? grad d: yep . professor b: yeah . so , i do n't i do n't think it 's worth a lot of work , particularly on your part , to to to make a big presentation . i do n't think you should you do n't have to make any new uh powerpoint or anything . i think we got plenty of stuff to talk about . and , then um just see how a discussion goes . grad d: mm - hmm . sounds good . the uh other two things is um we 've can have johno tell us a little about this professor b: great . grad d: and we also have a l little bit on the interface , m - three - l enhancement , and then um that was it , i think . grad a: so , what i did for this this is uh , a pedagogical belief - net because i was i i took i tried to conceptually do what you were talking about with the nodes that you could expand out so what i did was i took i made these dummy nodes called trajector - in and trajector - out that would isolate the things related to the trajector . professor b: yep . grad a: and then there were the things with the source and the path and the goal . professor b: yep . grad a: and i separated them out . and then i um did similar things for our our net to uh with the context and the discourse and whatnot , um , so we could sort of isolate them or whatever in terms of the the top layer . professor b: mm - hmm . grad a: and then the bottom layer is just the mode . so . professor b: so , let 's let 's yeah , i do n't understand it . let 's go slide all the way up so we see what the p the p very bottom looks like , or is that it ? grad a: yeah , there 's just one more node and it says `` mode `` which is the decision between the grad d: yeah . professor b: ok , great . alright . grad a: so basically all i did was i took the last belief - net professor b: so mm - hmm . grad a: and i grouped things according to what how i thought they would fit in to uh image schemas that would be related . and the two that i came up with were trajector - landmark and then source - path - goal as initial ones . professor b: yep . mm - hmm . grad a: and then i said well , uh the trajector would be the person in this case probably . professor b: right , yep . grad a: um , you know , we have we have the concept of what their intention was , whether they were trying to tour or do business or whatever , professor b: right . grad a: or they were hurried . that 's kind of related to that . and then um in terms of the source , the things uh the only things that we had on there i believe were whether oh actually , i kind of , i might have added these cuz i do n't think we talked too much about the source in the old one but uh whether the where i 'm currently at is a landmark might have a bearing on whether grad d: mm - hmm . grad a: or the `` landmark - iness `` of where i 'm currently at . and `` usefulness `` is basi basically means is that an institutional facility like a town hall or something like that that 's not something that you 'd visit for tourist 's tourism 's sake or whatever . `` travel constraints `` would be something like you know , maybe they said they can they only wan na take a bus or something like that , right ? and then those are somewhat related to the path , professor b: mm - hmm . grad a: so that would determine whether we 'd could take we would be telling them to go to the bus stop or versus walking there directly . um , `` goal `` . similar things as the source except they also added whether the entity was closed and whether they have somehow marked that is was the final destination . um , and then if you go up , robert , yeah , so um , in terms of context , what we had currently said was whether they were a businessman or a tourist of some other person . um , discourse was related to whether they had asked about open hours or whether they asked about where the entrance was or the admission fee , or something along those lines . professor b: mm - hmm . grad a: uh , prosody i do n't really i 'm not really sure what prosody means , in this context , so i just made up you know whether whether what they say is or h how they say it is is that . professor b: right , ok . grad a: um , the parse would be what verb they chose , and then maybe how they modified it , in the sense of whether they said `` i need to get there quickly `` or whatever . professor b: mm - hmm . grad a: and um , in terms of world knowledge , this would just basically be like opening and closing times of things , the time of day it is , and whatnot . grad d: what 's `` tourbook `` ? grad a: tourbook ? that would be , i do n't know , the `` landmark - iness `` of things , grad d: mm - hmm . grad a: whether it 's in the tourbook or not . professor b: ch - ch - ch - ch . now . alright , so i understand what 's what you got . i do n't yet understand how you would use it . so let me see if i can ask grad a: well , this is not a working bayes - net . professor b: a s right . no , i understand that , but but um so , what let 's slide back up again and see start at the at the bottom and oop - bo - doop - boop - boop . yeah . so , you could imagine w uh , go ahead , you were about to go up there and point to something . grad a: well i ok , i just say what you were gon na say . professor b: good , do it ! grad a: ok . professor b: no no , go do it . grad a: uh i i 'd no , i was gon na wait until professor b: oh , ok . so , so if you if we made if we wanted to make it into a a real uh bayes - net , that is , you know , with fill you know , actually f uh , fill it @ @ in , then uh grad a: so we 'd have to get rid of this and connect these things directly to the mode . professor b: well , i do n't that 's an issue . so , um grad a: cuz i do n't understand how it would work otherwise . professor b: well , here 's the problem . and and uh bhaskara and i was talking about this a little earlier today is , if we just do this , we could wind up with a huge uh , combinatoric input to the mode thing . and uh grad a: well i oh yeah , i unders i understand that , i just uh it 's hard for me to imagine how he could get around that . professor b: well , i but that 's what we have to do . grad a: ok . professor b: ok , so , so , uh . there there are a variety of ways of doing it . uh . let me just mention something that i do n't want to pursue today which is there are technical ways of doing it , uh i i slipped a paper to bhaskara and about noisy - or 's and noisy - maxes and there 're ways to uh sort of back off on the purity of your bayes - net - edness . grad a: mmm . professor b: uh , so . if you co you could ima and i now i do n't know that any of those actually apply in this case , but there is some technology you could try to apply . grad a: so it 's possible that we could do something like a summary node of some sort that ok . professor b: yeah . yeah . and , um so . grad a: so in that case , the sum we 'd have we i mean , these would n't be the summary nodes . we 'd have the summary nodes like where the things were i guess maybe if thi if things were related to business or some other professor b: yeah . grad a: yeah . professor b: so what i was gon na say is is maybe a good at this point is to try to informally i mean , not necessarily in th in this meeting , but to try to informally think about what the decision variables are . so , if you have some bottom line uh decision about which mode , you know , what are the most relevant things . grad a: mmm . professor b: and the other trick , which is not a technical trick , it 's kind of a knowledge engineering trick , is to make the n each node sufficiently narrow that you do n't get this combinatorics . so that if you decided that you could characterize the decision as a trade - off between three factors , whatever they may be , ok ? then you could say `` aha , let 's have these three factors `` , ok ? and maybe a binary version f for each , or some relatively compact decision node just above the final one . grad a: mmm . professor b: and then the question would be if if those are the things that you care about , uh can you make a relatively compact way of getting from the various inputs to the things you care about . so that y so that , you know , you can sort of try to do a knowledge engineering thing grad a: ok . professor b: given that we 're not gon na screw with the technology and just always use uh sort of orthodox bayes - nets , then we have a knowledge engineering little problem of how do we do that . um and grad a: so what i kind of need to do is to take this one and the old one and merge them together ? professor b: `` eh - eh - eh . `` yeah . grad a: so that professor b: well , mmm , something . i mean , so uh , robert has thought about this problem f for a long time , cuz he 's had these examples kicking around , so he may have some good intuition about you know , what are the crucial things . grad a: mmm . professor b: and , um , i understand where this the uh this is a way of playing with this abs source - path - goal trajector exp uh uh abstraction and and sort of sh displaying it in a particular way . grad a: yeah . professor b: uh , i do n't think our friends uh on wednesday are going to be able to well , maybe they will . well , let me think about whether whether i think we can present this to them or not . um , uh , grad d: well , i think this is still , i mean , ad - hoc . this is sort of th the second version and i i i look at this maybe just as a , you know , a a whatever , uml diagram or , you know , as just a uh screen shot , not really as a bayes - net as john johno said . grad a: we could actually , y yeah draw it in a different way , in the sense that it would make it more abstract . grad d: yeah . but the uh the the nice thing is that you know , it just is a is a visual aid for thinking about these things which has comple clearly have to be specified m more carefully professor b: alright , well , le let me think about this some more , grad d: and uh professor b: and uh see if we can find a way to present this to this linguists group that that is helpful to them . grad d: i mean , ultimately we we may w w we regard this as sort of an exercise in in thinking about the problem and maybe a first version of uh a module , if you wan na call it that , that you can ask , that you can give input and it it 'll uh throw the dice for you , uh throw the die for you , because um i integrated this into the existing smartkom system in in the same way as much the same way we can um sort of have this uh this thing . close this down . so if this is what m - three - l um will look like and what it 'll give us , um and a very simple thing . we have an action that he wants to go from somewhere , which is some type of object , to someplace . professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: and this these uh this changed now only um , um it 's doing it twice now because it already did it once . um , we 'll add some action type , which in this case is `` approach `` and could be , you know , more refined uh in many ways . professor b: mm - hmm . good . grad d: or we can uh have something where the uh goal is a public place and it will give us then of course an action type of the type `` enter `` . so this is just based on this one um , on this one feature , and that 's that 's about all you can do . and so in the f if this pla if the object type um here is is a m is a landmark , of course it 'll be um `` vista `` . and um this is about as much as we can do if we do n't w if we want to avoid uh uh a huge combinatorial explosion where we specify `` ok , if it 's this and this but that is not the case `` , and so forth , it just gets really really messy . professor b: ok , i 'm sorry . you 're you 're grad d: hmm ? professor b: it was much too quick for me . ok , so let me see if i understand what you 're saying . so , i i do understand that uh you can take the m - three - l and add not and it w and you need to do this , for sure , we have to add , you know , not too much about um object types and stuff , and what i think you did is add some rules of the style that are already there that say `` if it 's of type `` landmark `` , then you take you 're gon na take a picture of it . `` grad d: exactly . professor b: f full stop , i mean , that 's what you do . ev - every landmark you take a picture of , grad d: every public place you enter , and statue you want to go as near as possible . professor b: you enter you approach . ok . uh , and certainly you can add rules like that to the existing smartkom system . and you just did , right ? ok . grad d: yeah . and it it would do us no good . professor b: ah . grad d: that ultimately . professor b: well . so , s well , and let 's think about this . grad d: w professor b: um , that 's a that 's another kind of baseline case , that 's another sort of thing `` ok , here 's a another kind of minimal uh way of tackling this `` . add extra properties , a deterministic rule for every property you have an action , `` pppt ! `` you do that . um , then the question would be uh now , if that 's all you 're doing , then you can get the types from the ontology , ok ? because that 's all you 're all you 're using is this type the types in the ontology and you 're done . grad d: hmm ? professor b: right ? so we do n't we do n't use the discourse , we do n't use the context , we do n't do any of those things . grad d: no . professor b: alright , but that 's but that 's ok , and i mean it it 's again a kind of one minimal extension of the existing things . and that 's something the uh smartkom people themselves would they 'd say `` sure , that 's no problem you know , no problem to add types to the ont `` right ? grad d: yeah . no . and this is just in order to exemplify what what we can do very , very easily is , um we have this this silly uh interface and we have the rules that are as banal as of we just saw , and we have our content . professor b: hmm . grad d: now , the content i whi which is sort of what what we see here , which is sort of the vista , schema , source , path , goal , whatever . professor b: yeah . yeah . grad d: this will um be um a job to find ways of writing down image schema , x - schema , constructions , in some some form , and have this be in a in a in the content , loosely called `` constructicon `` . and the rules we want to throw away completely . and um and here is exactly where what 's gon na be replaced with our bayes - net , which is exactly getting the input feeding into here . this decides whether it 's an whether action the the enter , the vista , or the whatever professor b: uh , `` approach `` , you called it , i think this time . grad d: uh approach um construction should be activated , ie just pasted in . professor b: that 's what you said yeah , that 's fine . yeah , but right . but it 's not construction there , it 's action . construction is a d is a different story . grad d: yeah . grad a: right . this is uh so what we 'd be generating would be a reference to a semantic uh like parameters for the for the x - schema ? professor b: for for for yes . grad a: ok . professor b: yeah . so that that uh i if you had the generalized `` go `` x - schema and you wanted to specialize it to these three ones , then you would have to supply the parameters . grad a: right . professor b: and then uh , although we have n't worried about this yet , you might wan na worry about something that would go to the gis and use that to actually get you know , detailed route planning . so , you know , where do you do take a picture of it and stuff like that . grad a: mm - hmm . professor b: but that 's not it 's not the immediate problem . grad a: right . professor b: but , presumably that that that functionality 's there when when we grad a: so the immediate problem is just deciding w which grad d: aspects of the x - schema to add . professor b: yeah , so the pro the immediate problem is is back t t to what you were what you are doing with the belief - net . grad a: yeah . professor b: you know , uh what are we going to use to make this decision grad a: right and then , once we 've made the decision , how do we put that into the content ? professor b: yeah . right . right . well , that that actually is relatively easy in this case . grad a: ok . professor b: the harder problem is we decide what we want to use , how are we gon na get it ? and that the the that 's the hardest problem . so , the hardest problem is how are you going to get this information from some combination of the what the person says and the context and the ontology . the h so , i think that 's the hardest problem at the moment is is grad a: ok . professor b: where are you gon na how are you gon na g get this information . um , and that 's so , getting back to here , uh , we have a d a technical problem with the belief - nets that we we do n't want all the com grad a: there 's just too many factors right now . professor b: too many factors if we if we allow them to just go combinatorially . grad a: right . professor b: so we wan na think about which ones we really care about and what they really most depend on , and can we c you know , clean this this up to the point where it grad a: so what we really wan na do i cuz this is really just the three layer net , we wan na b make it expand it out into more layers basically ? professor b: right . we might . uh , i mean that that 's certainly one thing we can do . uh , it 's true that the way you have this , a lot of the times you have what you 're having is the values rather than the variable . so uh grad a: right . so instead of in instead it should really be just be `` intention `` as a node instead of `` intention business `` or `` intention tour `` . professor b: ok ? so you yeah , right , and then it would have values , uh , `` tour `` , `` business `` , or uh `` hurried `` . grad a: right . professor b: but then but i it still some knowledge design to do , about i how do you wan na break this up , what really matters . grad a: right . professor b: i mean , it 's fine . you know , we have to it 's it 's iterative . we 're gon na have to work with it some . grad a: i think what was going through my mind when i did it was someone could both have a business intention and a touring intention and the probabilities of both of them happening at the same time professor b: well , you you could do that . and it 's perfectly ok to uh insist that that , you know , th um , they add up to one , but that there 's uh that that it does n't have to be one zero zero . grad a: mmm . ok . professor b: ok . so you could have the conditional p so the each of these things is gon na be a a a probability . so whenever there 's a choice , uh so like landmark - ness and usefulness , grad a: well , see i do n't think those would be mutually professor b: ok grad a: it seems like something could both be professor b: absolutely right . grad a: ok . professor b: and so that you might want to then have those b th - then they may have to be separate . they may not be able to be values of the same variable . grad d: object type , mm - hmm . professor b: so that 's but again , this is this is the sort of knowledge design you have to go through . right . it 's you know , it 's great is is , you know , as one step toward uh toward where we wan na go . grad d: also it strikes me that we we m may want to approach the point where we can sort of try to find a uh , a specification for some interface , here that um takes the normal m - three - l , looks at it . then we discussed in our pre - edu edu meeting um how to ask the ontology , what to ask the ontology um the fact that we can pretend we have one , make a dummy until we get the real one , and so um we we may wan na decide we can do this from here , but we also could do it um you know if we have a a a belief - net interface . so the belief - net takes as input , a vector , right ? of stuff . and it yeah . and um it output is whatever , as well . but this information is just m - three - l , and then we want to look up some more stuff in the ontology and we want to look up some more stuff in the maybe we want to ask the real world , maybe you want to look something up in the grs , but also we definitely want to look up in the dialogue history um some s some stuff . based on we we have uh i was just made some examples from the ontology and so we have for example some information there that the town hall is both a a a building and it has doors and stuff like this , but it is also an institution , so it has a mayor and so forth and so forth and we get relations out of it and once we have them , we can use that information to look in the dialogue history , `` were any of these things that that are part of the town hall as an institution mentioned ? `` , professor b: mm - hmm . grad d: `` were any of these that make the town hall a building mentioned ? `` , grad c: right . grad d: and so forth , and maybe draw some inferences on that . so this may be a a sort of a process of two to three steps before we get our vector , that we feed into the belief - net , professor b: yeah . i think that 's i think that 's exactly right . grad d: and then professor b: there will be rules , but they are n't rules that come to final decisions , they 're rules that gather information for a decision process . yeah , grad d: yeah . professor b: no i think that 's that 's just fine . uh , yeah . so they 'll they presumably there 'll be a thread or process or something that `` agent `` , yeah , `` agent `` , whatever you wan wan na say , yeah , that uh is rule - driven , and can can uh can do things like that . and um there 's an issue about whether there will be that 'll be the same agent and the one that then goes off and uh carries out the decision , so it probably will . my guess is it 'll be the same basic agent that um can go off and get information , run it through a a c this belief - net that turn a crank in the belief - net , that 'll come out with s uh more another vector , ok , which can then be uh applied at what we would call the simulation or action end . so you now know what you 're gon na do and that may actually involve getting more information . so on once you pull that out , it could be that that says `` ah ! now that we know that we gon na go ask the ontology something else . `` ok ? now that we know that it 's a bus trip , ok ? we did n't we did n't need to know beforehand , uh how long the bus trip takes or whatever , but but now that we know that 's the way it 's coming out then we got ta go find out more . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: so i think that 's ok . grad d: mm - hmm . so this is actually , s if if we were to build something that is um , and , uh , i had one more thing , the it needs to do yeah . i think we i i can come up with a a code for a module that we call the `` cognitive dispatcher `` , which does nothing , professor b: ok . grad d: but it looks of complect object trees and decides how are there parts missing that need to be filled out , there 's this is maybe something that this module can do , something that this module can do and then collect uh sub - objects and then recombine them and put them together . so maybe this is actually some some useful tool that we can use to rewrite it , and uh get this part , professor b: oh , ok . uh . grad d: then . yeah . professor b: i confess , i 'm still not completely comfortable with the overall story . um . i i this this is not a complaint , this is a promise to do more work . so i 'm gon na hafta think about it some more . um . in particular see what we 'd like to do , and and this has been implicit in the discussion , is to do this in such a way that you get a lot of re - use . so . what you 're trying to get out of this deep co cognitive linguistics is the fact that w if you know about source source , paths and goals , and nnn { comment } all this sort of stuff , that a lot of this is the same , for different tasks . and that uh there 's there 's some some important generalities that you 're getting , so that you do n't take each and every one of these tasks and hafta re - do it . and i do n't yet see how that goes . alright . grad d: there 're no primitives upon which uh professor b: u u what are the primitives , and how do you break this grad d: yeah . professor b: so i y i 'm just just there saying eee { comment } well you i know how to do any individual case , right ? but i do n't yet see what 's the really interesting question is can you use uh deep uh cognitive linguistics to get powerful generalizations . and grad d: yep . professor b: um grad d: maybe we sho should we a add then the `` what 's this ? `` domain ? n i mean , we have to `` how do i get to x `` . then we also have the `` what 's this ? `` domain , where we get some slightly different professor b: could . uh . grad c: right . grad d: um johno , actually , does not allow us to call them `` intentions `` anymore . professor b: yeah . grad d: so he he dislikes the term . professor b: well , i i do n't like the term either , so i have n i uh i i y w i i it uh grad d: but um , i 'm sure the `` what 's this ? `` questions also create some interesting x - schema aspects . professor b: could be . i 'm not a i 'm not op particularly opposed to adding that or any other task , grad d: so . professor b: i mean , eventually we 're gon na want a whole range of them . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: uh , grad c: that 's right . professor b: i 'm just saying that i 'm gon na hafta do some sort of first principles thinking about this . i just at the moment do n't know . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: h no . well , no the bayes the bayes - nets the bayes - nets will be dec specific for each decision . but what i 'd like to be able to do is to have the way that you extract properties , that will go into different bayes - nets , be the uh general . so that if you have sources , you have trajectors and stuff like that , and there 's a language for talking about trajectors , you should n't have to do that differently for uh uh going to something , than for circling it , for uh telling someone else how to go there , grad d: getting out of professor b: whatever it is . so that that , the the decision processes are gon na be different what you 'd really like of course is the same thing you 'd always like which is that you have um a kind of intermediate representation which looks the same o over a bunch of inputs and a bunch of outputs . so all sorts of different tasks and all sorts of different ways of expressing them use a lot of the same mechanism for pulling out what are the fundamental things going on . and that 's that would be the really pretty result . and pushing it one step further , when you get to construction grammar and stuff , what you 'd like to be able to do is say you have this parser which is much fancier than the parser that comes with uh smartkom , i that that actually uses constructions and is able to tell from this construction that there 's uh something about the intent you know , the actual what people wan na do or what they 're referring to and stuff , in independent of whether it about what is this or where is it or something , that you could tell from the construction , you could pull out deep semantic information which you 're gon na use in a general way . so that 's the you might . you might . you might be able to to uh say that this i this is the kind of construction in which the there 's let 's say there 's a uh cont there the the land the construction implies the there 's a con this thing is being viewed as a container . ok . so just from this local construction you know that you 're gon na hafta treat it as a container you might as well go off and get that information . and that may effect the way you process everything else . so if you say `` how do i get into the castle `` ok , then um or , you know , `` what is there in the castle `` or so there 's all sorts of things you might ask that involve the castle as a container and you 'd like to have this orthogonal so that anytime the castle 's referred to as a container , you crank up the appropriate stuff . independent of what the goal is , and independent of what the surrounding language is . grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: alright , so that 's that 's the that 's the thesis level grad d: mm - hmm . professor b: uh grad d: it 's unfortunate also that english has sort of got rid of most of its spatial adverbs because they 're really fancy then , in in for these kinds of analysis . but uh . professor b: well , you have prepositional phrases that grad d: yeah , but they 're they 're easier for parsers . professor b: right . grad d: parsers can pick those up but but the with the spatial adverbs , they have a tough time . because the mean the semantics are very complex in that . professor b: right . grad d: ok , yeah ? i had one more thing . i do n't remember . i just forgot it again . no . oh yeah , b but an architecture like this would also enable us maybe to to throw this away and and replace it with something else , or whatever , so that we have so that this is sort of the representational formats we 're we 're we 're talking about that are independent of the problem , that generalize over those problems , and are oh , t of a higher quality than an any actual whatever um belief - net , or `` x `` that we may use for the decision making , ultimately . should be decoupled , yeah . ok . professor b: right . so , are we gon na be meeting here from now on ? i 'm i 'm happy to do that . we we had talked about it , cuz you have th th the display and everything , that seems fine . grad d: yeah , um , liz also asks whether we 're gon na have presentations every time . i do n't think we will need to do that but it 's professor b: right . grad d: so far i think it was nice as a visual aid for some things and and professor b: oh yeah . no i i think it 's worth it to ass to meet here to bring this , and assume that something may come up that we wan na look at . grad d: yeah . professor b: i mean . why not . grad d: and um . yeah , that was my professor b: she was good . litonya was good . grad d: yeah ? the uh um , she w she was definitely good in the sense that she she showed us some of the weaknesses professor b: right . grad d: and um also the um the fact that she was a real subject you know , is is professor b: right . yeah , and and and yeah and and she took it seriously and stuff l no , it was great . grad d: yeah . professor b: yeah . grad d: so i think that um i mean , w looking just looking at this data , listening to it , what can we get out of it in terms of our problem , for example , is , you know , she actually m said you know , she never s just spoke about entering , she just wanted to get someplace , and she said for buying stuff . nuh ? so this is definitely interesting , and grad c: yeah , right . grad d: um , and in the other case , where she wanted to look at the stuff at the graffiti , also , of course , not in the sentence `` how do you get there ? `` was pretty standard . nuh ? except that there was a nice anaphora , you know , for pointing at what she talked about before , and there she was talking about looking at pictures that are painted inside a wall on walls , so grad c: right . grad d: actually , you 'd need a lot of world knowledge . this would have been a classical um uh `` tango `` , actually . um , because graffiti is usually found on the outside and not on the inside , grad c: yeah . grad d: but ok . so the mistake { comment } would have make a mistake the system would have made a mistake here . grad c: yep . professor b: click ? alright .

grad d thought that the best way would be to add restrictive action types that are attached to the kind of object . for instance , there are specific actions that would be relevant to a landmark .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: okay , all set ? welcome to the conceptual design meeting . user interface: uh , okay . industrial designer: yes . project manager: the agenda . the opening . i 'll again be the secretary and make minutes , take minutes , uh and it will be three presentations , just like the last meeting . so um , who wants to start off ? technical uh designer again ? user interface: again . project manager: okay . user interface: hmm . project manager: uh , yeah . uh , before we begin it , i want to say i 've i 've put the minutes of the uh second meeting in the shared folder , but they 're still not uh quite okay . it uh it uh still some technical difficulties so the the first part of the minutes are very hard to read , because there are two documents that uh were layered over each other . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: project manager: so marketing: okay . project manager: but uh , from now on i wo n't use my pen anymore , so will be p just ordinary keyboard . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: user interface: uh , may be better , yeah . marketing: keyboard work . yeah . project manager: i think it will will be more uh easy for you to read the minutes . user interface: yeah . marketing: alright . industrial designer: okay , when we talk about uh components design , um it 's really about the material and the and uh uh really the stuff we build uh the remote controls of . um , a remote control consist of uh components and the components of a remote control consist of uh properties and material . we have to choose th uh these uh wisely and it could affect uh uh a kind of grow of in uh in buying uh the remote controls . um , the components of a remote control are of course uh the case . uh the properties of the case , um it has to be solid uh in hard material like uh hard plastic uh with soft rubber for uh falling and and uh uh yeah , it feels uh good in your hand . marketing: industrial designer: mm the buttons has to be uh solid too , and the material is soft rubber . uh i 've got a uh email from the possibilities of real reaction . um uh they 're telling me that um when we build uh a remote control of um of plastic or rubber , the uh buttons have to be uh rubber too . mm it 's okay . yeah . i when we use a rubbled a doubled curved case , we must use a rubber push-buttons to uh the the rubber double-curved case is a is a t uh three-dimensional uh curve in the in the design , which is uh necessary when we want to be trendy . uh um user interface: oh . industrial designer: the energy source , uh i 've got a lot of possibilities for that too . um , uh the basic battery , which i thi prefer because of its uh its non uh non-depending of of of uh um uh here you have to have a hand uh yeah , kinetic uh energy . also in uh this one , like in the watches , but a remote control can lie on a table for a day , and then you push uh a button and so you do n't have to uh walk with it all the all the time . mm , solar cells are also uh a bit weird for uh remote controls . marketing: project manager: industrial designer: um uh also the case material , uh i think that plastic is the is the best with rubber , because uh wood or titanium would also be a bit weird . user interface: oh titanium is probably trendy , i think . . marketing: that 's true , i guess . yeah . user interface: well , maybe a little bit expensive . marketing: user interface: i do n't know . industrial designer: uh , they do n't tell anything about the cost of uh titanium . marketing: huh . industrial designer: um the chip uh the chip set uh and the board is uh all off the shelf . also , the speaker in the remote control , when we want to retrieve it . um , the base station is also off the shelf , all the materials and the components are uh just available in uh in our uh factory . mm , i 've told about uh the three first points . mm , the simple electronical chip uh is is available uh with the led transmitter uh transmitter . uh , it 's all uh off the shelf and even the speaker and the wireless retriever are all uh available in our company . um , another possibility . i uh yeah , i looked up on was uh the lcd displays . could be uh something special to our uh remote control , and it 's possible , but it only cost a bit more , but maybe it can be uh within the limits of twenty five euros . project manager: twelve and a half . actually industrial designer: ah yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , production cost . industrial designer: i th i got an email with uh some examples and it these were were the most trendiest one . user interface: industrial designer: you see uh a covers , which can be project manager: what are those , t tooth uh brushes , or so user interface: industrial designer: um , i do n't know . um marketing: project manager: but it 's actually kind of uh user interface: i project manager: well , it resembles the design i had in mind for this proj industrial designer: yes . project manager: you know the the cartoonish alessi kind of design . marketing: yep . industrial designer: yes , maybe we can uh bri uh bring a couple of uh couple of types of uh project manager: and we can we can steal their ideas . marketing: industrial designer: maybe a kind of uh whole uh um a whole set of uh different uh remote controls . project manager: huh . industrial designer: maybe we can bring a whole line uh with uh with a huge variety of uh project manager: well , it 's a possibility , too . industrial designer: uh house uh stuff . user interface: different colours also . industrial designer: like uh maybe radios and uh television also uh in this in this in the same style , but project manager: uh-uh . marketing: yeah , that 'll be for the future , i guess . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: next time we 're here . industrial designer: yes , because we have to uh we have to we have to bring the logo and all the stuff uh back into it . marketing: yeah . project manager: oh , okay . marketing: yeah . definitely . project manager: okay . user interface: okay . industrial designer: thank you . marketing: alright . user interface: uh marketing: yeah . that 's okay . user interface: ah . marketing: user interface: well , i shall go to the next slide . um marketing: user interface: um , i still do n't have any information about user requirements . marketing: user interface: i was thinking about just uh the basic functions and i got uh project manager: oh , we decided upon that in the last meeting . did n't we ? user interface: yeah , but but then wh i do n't know when there are new user requirements . project manager: oh , okay . well , tha i did n't receive any new requirements or somethi user interface: i ha i ha i have the i have project manager: just user interface: nothing . project manager: no , but we decided to use only b basic functions only . user interface: well , i have here a couple of basic functions i could think of . project manager: okay . user interface: i dunno if they 're maybe a little bit more , but project manager: well we maybe we can think of that later . w just user interface: yeah . project manager: these are the ones you already summed up in the user interface: yeah , i i uh well , i pointed them out here , just to make it a little bit easier . project manager: okay . user interface: um another function uh is of course we already discuss it on the side . um , i do n't know what costs of it . uh , i 've no idea about it . uh , i was also looking for what you said , for i got an email uh uh about uh lcd in in in front of the remote control . i do n't know if that 's a good idea , or maybe it 's a little bit too much for twelve and a half . production . project manager: yeah . user interface: if we got already uh something like a base . industrial designer: uh-huh . project manager: that might get redundant also maybe . i do n't know what kind of information it would user interface: yeah , i do n't know . i d i uh ju i was just thinking about it . then i got a pop-ups to go to the meeting . but marketing: mm yeah . project manager: yeah . yeah , it 's okay . industrial designer: maybe we can bring t uh uh teletext to the t to the remote control . user interface: the remote control . marketing: then you project manager: user interface: a little uh too a little bit marketing: and then you 've got a flag s very big r_c_ . yeah . project manager: okay . that 's not it was not a good idea . user interface: a little bit too big , i think . exactly . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: okay . user interface: um , yeah . well , the functions are are not more to discuss , i think . project manager: no . no . user interface: it 's it 's just the base things we already discussed that the no v_c_r_ or that kind of marketing: no . user interface: uh , so that 's very easy . um project manager: but you do mention the next and previous uh button . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: user interface: well , that 's next channel . i mean next channel . marketing: next channel , previous channel . project manager: oh , okay , o okay okay . user interface: uh um oh , i i got an email with with an uh a remote control with a base . project manager: huh . user interface: so , it 's uh just an idea . and i um uh thinked of the button sizes and i 'm not sure uh if they have to be big or uh just small industrial designer: but you 're the expert . marketing: i think it depends on the function . user interface: well , i 'm not a e i 'm the expert for user-friendly , but not for trendiness . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: maybe it marketing: well , if you save uh perhaps uh s tiny buttons are n't user-friendly , then we would n't im implement that of course . project manager: user interface: well uh industrial designer: marketing: user interface: okay , that 's your point . um , yeah . yeah , okay . marketing: user interface: yeah , i 've nothing to s industrial designer: project manager: well , w when we only use basic functions , we have the possibility to make the buttons larger . marketing: oh , that 's right . user interface: uh , with a little bit larger , yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: i thought so , but maybe with the project manager: well , i think we already agreed upon the fact that the the the skip buttons and the cha and the volume buttons , th th those two have yeah , they have to be large . user interface: yeah , that groups . project manager: uh , i mean th th the the two two basic buttons , you know , the to skip channels and to uh user interface: large ? yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: i think yeah , i do n't know why , but i think that is that 's t trendy too , user interface: most the most used uh buttons . marketing: those are probably the the th project manager: because that 's the mo it it you know , it 's uh acc acc um accentu uh , how do you say it ? it puts an extra accent on the the on the simplicity of our remotes to j to make these two most basic functions extra big , like t marketing: yes . user interface: true . yeah . marketing: those are probably the b four most most used buttons on the th in the remote control . project manager: yeah . and you want to acc accentuate that , you know . industrial designer: you did the research . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: it 's from your research . marketing: sorry ? yeah , sure . project manager: so user interface: okay . uh , that was all y industrial designer: user interface: uh personal preference i did n't have . project manager: okay . user interface: i did n't had any time left . project manager: no uh , that 's coo it 's cool . industrial designer: marketing: you do n't care . no , sorry . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: yeah . user interface: marketing: oh . go away . user interface: it 's there . marketing: come on . user interface: yeah , click on it . marketing: . user interface: couple time . marketing: oh , great . well , i 've done some research again about trends on the internet . um i 've done some investigation , and uh well i uh got some information from fashion watchers from paris and uh milan . some uh some findings the most important thing is fancy look and feel of the remote control . uh , well , we were going to imply that , so that 's nice . the second important thing is uh innovative technology in the r_c_ . uh , our market really likes really likes that . and uh the third point there in this uh order if of importance , the third point , is a high ease of use . and uh , well , for the idea , i 've put some trends uh for the market of elderly people . industrial designer: marketing: dark colours , simple recognisable shapes . so we probably wo n't do that . user interface: marketing: the younger market likes uh well , the themes of of this year are uh surprisingly fruits and vegetables and spongy material . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: i found this image , which is uh well , it symbolises the idea of fruits and vegetables . i do n't see the spongy part in it . but with a little bit of fancy project manager: well maybe c then we have to do something with sponge bob then . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: exactly . i got some ideas user interface: marketing: uh well , yeah , pictures is n't really good word , but um industrial designer: marketing: some symbols of fruits or vegetables maybe . uh , catchy colours . industrial designer: marketing: fruit is uh yellow , green , red , whatever . user interface: marketing: so , remote controls in in catchy colours . project manager: it does n't stroke with the with the dark colours . marketing: uh , no , we do n't want dark colours . project manager: not the dark colours ? okay . marketing: no , i just put them there to uh , yeah , uh for general idea . project manager: okay . marketing: and uh , the docking st industrial designer: marketing: uh i think the spongy material is is very irritating for the uh remote control itself . but to industrial designer: marketing: yeah , the to implement some spongy thing , maybe we can do it in the in the docking station . at the bottom of the docking station or whatever . and uh , we could bring one line with a dark colour uh to um uh p uh yeah industrial designer: marketing: uh uh v how do you say ? project manager: for diversity or something . uh marketing: yeah , also a bit for elderly people who are a little bit crazy and want maybe want a little younger design but still the dark colour . user interface: well , how uh industrial designer: marketing: i mean it it it reaches a different market uh , but it it it does n't cost really much effort to b to uh bring uh like a black r_c_ on the market or whatever . yes . user interface: but how do we use uh fruits and vegetables in christ 's sake with remote control ? industrial designer: project manager: no , but i i i think that uh our design already resembles so a piece of fruit . marketing: yeah , there 's there 's always a user interface: uh , make it a banana ? project manager: it 's like a pear or something . user interface: marketing: well there there 's always empty space of course on a remote control . i mean i think this part of the r_c_ uh well the upper the upper part or whatever is uh is not not used with buttons , i guess . project manager: no , i do n't think you have to do it like industrial designer: user interface: marketing: so you you can put some fruity things project manager: yeah , but it that does n't have to remind you , you know , like explicitly of s our f of a of a specific piece of fruit , but just , you know , like the the the the round curves . industrial designer: marketing: no , of course not . project manager: and so y i i think this y it already sem resembles uh something like a pear to me or something . marketing: especially i user interface: yeah , but th yeah , but that marketing: yeah , yeah . yeah , exactly . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , but that 's marketing: if we make it little bit greenish . project manager: you do get the idea , eh ? the fruity kind of round user interface: yeah uh uh project manager: 'kay . marketing: a and we could use one of these for the uh w what is it ? project manager: yeah , uh yeah , i do n't know . industrial designer: grapes . marketing: uh industrial designer: project manager: uh , this is a b yeah . marketing: is n't wha whatever . user interface: but d do n't we need a creative artist or something like that to m make it to feel like a a a a vegetable or fruit ? industrial designer: project manager: yeah , yeah . of course we have uh marketing: yeah , sure . project manager: we have a very big uh the s marketing: yeah . well , w we can uh w we can we can produce multiple uh multiple things . industrial designer: for a big team of artists . project manager: of d design team , yeah . user interface: marketing: this is then the uh pear . i do n't know the english word , so forget it . project manager: yeah , but it 's pear , i guess . marketing: and um , maybe , yeah , a b a banana is uh is n not easy for a remote control , but m yeah . industrial designer: but uh but i think we do n't have to make project manager: no . industrial designer: we ca n't make all uh ten designs . we have to make one design i th i i think . project manager: no , but i think it 's it 's already what we were were up to . marketing: mayb maybe two or three . user interface: yeah . project manager: uh , it 's it does n't have to resemble uh what i already said , a specific piece of fruit , but just , you know , like a fruity thing going on . user interface: marketing: yeah . no sure , but but project manager: and it 's it looks fruity to me . user interface: marketing: b but that 's great , and and and what i was project manager: and uh , but i do like the marketing: what what i was saying , the catchy colours project manager: yeah , i do like uh the f uh to the idea of making a a y uh , a catchy colour design and a d because i do i think a dark colour would be nice too . industrial designer: but pictures of fruit , vegetables vegetables marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe it 's too much , you know . user interface: but , we we have to um there have to be the the the the firm colours , our own uh colours has to be in it . marketing: yeah , uh not really . pictures was a was a bad word , but project manager: okay , but what are the this is yellow . marketing: well we c yeah . user interface: yellow , a real reaction . industrial designer: yes , you can put a logo on top of it . project manager: but i do n't think our our company colours are this fashionable . marketing: yeah , sure . user interface: uh , yeah . marketing: maybe we can if if we got our docking station over here . user interface: we uh f industrial designer: yes , it 's really fruity . marketing: i ca n't draw with this thing , but i 'll try . user interface: a yellow do marketing: if this is our docking station , we can make our logo over here . user interface: uh , yeah . marketing: it does n't work . and then user interface: yeah , and the button then . industrial designer: with a strawberry on top . project manager: yeah , on uh n uh on the bottom of the remote you can do marketing: well , the button button over here or whatever , user interface: okay , yeah . marketing: i do n't know . on the front , of course , because else you ca n't find it . user interface: okay . marketing: well , that were my ideas a little bit . project manager: okay . marketing: i 'll close 'em down . um , go away . project manager: okay , you can you open the conceptual design presentation ? marketing: conceptual design , yes . project manager: see what was on the agenda . user interface: lazy . marketing: the agenda . project manager: this is his own remote . because um , maybe we can start with the technical uh functions , user interface: yeah . project manager: but i do n't think it 's there uh , yeah um , do we want to um use an lcd display , for example ? marketing: well , it 's nice , of course . but i do n't i do n't know what to display on it . industrial designer: only if we project manager: me neither . industrial designer: maybe maybe we can make a tv guide on it , for the channel you 're on . marketing: i mean project manager: yeah , but it 's so marketing: yeah , but it should be li like this big , and i do n't think industrial designer: no , no , only the tv channel with the with uh with uh four programmes . project manager: i do n't think we should do it . industrial designer: you can uh zap through them with the page up page down button . marketing: yes sure , but it it has to to show an entire title of a programme or at least a q a quite quite large part of it and then you get a very large lcd screen , because industrial designer: yes , it can on your no , on your mobile phone you can y you can read text also . so why not on your remote ? project manager: yeah , but no . i do i think it 's a bit redundant , actually . marketing: yeah , i do n't know . project manager: and it 's also not i do n't th even think it it looks s like sexy or something , user interface: well well what would you display on it then ? project manager: it 's industrial designer: uh , programme uh information or or or or g or a guide marketing: programme information . user interface: but is it is n't that a already on tv , a lot of new tvs ? marketing: but industrial designer: on t on teletext , yes . also on the internet . marketing: well a lot a lot of tvs indeed show uh when you uh zap to a industrial designer: but project manager: but you 're already watching the tv , you 're not gon na watch your remote control . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes , but you also want to know what 's next . marketing: but then we also uh w need to bring out a line of tvs which we were planning to , user interface: yeah , project manager: user interface: and we also have to yeah . marketing: but whatever . because the tv has to send information back to the r_c_ , and i do n't know if that 's possible . industrial designer: yes , that 's uh really possible . project manager: marketing: yes , yes , o of course it 's possible , user interface: marketing: but you got ta uh implement it in the tvs , and i do n't think everyone 's gon na buy a real reaction tv within a month after the release of our uh remote control . industrial designer: project manager: i really understand you want to make your job more exciting by putting an lcd in it , user interface: and i also industrial designer: user interface: marketing: project manager: but i i really do n't think it 's a good n goo because it also does n't stroke with we wanted uh c when we talk about the materials , uh it 's a good idea to use these plastic materials with soft rubber stuff on it . it was our idea , you know , to give it a more sturdy look and that you ca like you can throw with it . marketing: yeah . project manager: but i do n't think a lcd display fits in that image . you know , it 's like more vulnerable , and it adds nothing really , you know . marketing: that 's true , that 's true , it breaks f yeah , it it it 's not very solid , it 's uh frag fragile . project manager: yeah , yeah . you could make it , but it 's just it it does n't i do n't think it it 's coherent with the design we 're after . marketing: no . no . i do n't think so ei either . project manager: but that 's my opinion . well , you you y okay , we can vote for it . you want the lcd display . i do n't want to and he does n't , so it 's up to him . industrial designer: no . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: if we wan na user interface: yeah , i dunno . marketing: . ah . industrial designer: project manager: and i 've read somewhere that i 've got some kind of veto veto uh rights . user interface: . oh , okay . industrial designer: marketing: bastard . project manager: so i can also say user interface: we can you away . project manager: but did we skip the yeah , you could do marketing: project manager: m but what what i so what i but do you think we should user interface: yeah , i do n't know . uh , uh i i if it 's it 's a simple p project manager: we 're not even sure what what information we want to display on it . so user interface: no , that that 's right , industrial designer: no uh um user interface: and uh i also have to think about new functions , maybe buttons or something like that to control it . kind of lcd or something or industrial designer: y yes , you can use uh buttons uh uh w that are already uh on the remote control for double functions . marketing: yeah , i guess . user interface: but how does it display then ? w when i go to the second channel , what what does it show me ? industrial designer: uh , then you push a button . the title and the information about the programme . user interface: about that programme ? industrial designer: but but uh yeah , what he said was right , about the televisions , they have to be uh customised to the project manager: nah , that 's not gon na work . industrial designer: but maybe in future it will be a giant hit , and when you are the first marketing: no . project manager: yeah . oh , well uh i 've seen it done before . industrial designer: you have the biggest uh project manager: do you know th like the the bigger rem uh universal remotes , they have d lcd displays , user interface: yeah . project manager: but then it 's very functional to indicate which what uh uh device you are controlling . so it 's that that 's what i 've seen . industrial designer: yes , you can put uh a little lcd display on it with uh with lots of information . marketing: yeah , that 's true , if you uh yeah . project manager: but it just it j it does n't does n't match with the our whole basic concept . industrial designer: but uh i have n't thought about it . but whe but when you put a a a transparent uh plastic uh uh screen on top of it , it i it is n't vulnerable . project manager: well yeah , yeah , okay . that 's maybe not the most important , industrial designer: you can throw with it and project manager: but it 's just user interface: is it fashion ? project manager: i do n't think so . industrial designer: when when you put uh maybe a colour lcd t uh screen on it , it 's very special and very trendy to have uh a remote control from user interface: i do n't know . that 's not up to you . that 's up to market if i if it 's trendy . project manager: yeah , well do you ha do you have to you have n't looked after the trendiness of lcd displays , have you ? marketing: no . industrial designer: user interface: because our our motto is we put fashion marketing: well , i think it 's uh i think it 's pretty trendy , to be honest , uh but um i do n't know if if if well , i 'm coming back to the costs again , but i think uh we got ta build a b pretty cheap design to to stay within our limits . and i think uh especially colour lcd , which is indeed pretty trendy . but i do n't think uh , i think it will be too expensive . industrial designer: but uh i 've got a the email with uh with the possibilities . and lcd was a possibility for the remote control . project manager: user interface: project manager: yeah yeah yeah . industrial designer: so why do n't we use it . project manager: yeah , but we 're gon na if it marketing: uh , did it say a price also uh for for uh monogramme uh lcd or uh coloured lcd ? user interface: yeah , if you want to be trendy you have to be coloured . coloured marketing: yeah really , user interface: if you have black and white or something , or grey , that 's marketing: if y if you c i project manager: then uh then you better do n't yeah , d marketing: i in in two thousand and four you ca n't uh put something on the market which is a monogramme . project manager: user interface: marketing: really . industrial designer: no , but it does n't sa say anything about a colour or but , mm , i alf i also got a possibility to put uh a scroll button on it . but project manager: uh uh i really do n't feel the whole idea of an lcd display . industrial designer: i did n't think that marketing: project manager: i 'm sorry . it ca n't co you can not convince me . i do n't know how well how to with you guys , but i do n't really feel it . we already we 're uh user interface: it 's too much uh maybe uh with with the lcd and the docking station and project manager: yeah , we already have the the th th th base station gadgets , marketing: yeah . project manager: and want and it uh uh , do it has to be a simple design , which sturdy , which soft industrial designer: yes , but o on the marketing: w we 've we 've got ta find a balance , of course . user interface: with one thing special . marketing: and i think user interface: not a whole package of specialty . project manager: i do n't think i j uh , and really , i do n't see how the the lcd display is gon na add anything , you know , on a design level . uh , i think it 's slicker to have no l_ ceds . industrial designer: no , when y project manager: y we want to it 's simplicity , w you have two big buttons and you can do whatever you want with these two buttons , so you do n't need an lcd . industrial designer: but it look yes , but that remote controls are already on the market . the simple project manager: it does n't fit in our philosophy uh behind the whole remote . industrial designer: yes , but but when you want to have something special project manager: yeah , but we already have the docking station , which is industrial designer: yes , but you had a picture of it from another company . user interface: and uh the marketing: we have a pear . project manager: it has to be developed , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: but no , but it that 's industrial designer: project manager: that 's our that 's our killer feature . user interface: it 's just an it 's just an idea . marketing: project manager: that 's our what makes it special . user interface: it 's a it 's industrial designer: yes , it was already made . tha the remote control on the docking station . project manager: yeah , we 're gon na develop our own r n docking station . user interface: true . marketing: is that so ? was it it was n't just a prototype ? user interface: well uh i uh industrial designer: yes , he have a picture of it . project manager: user interface: yeah , i dunno . industrial designer: marketing: exactly , i 've never seen it in a store . project manager: uh , but re we really have to cut this off , user interface: project manager: i re i know you i i i i i get the idea you really like it , you know , the the lcd thing , but i i think it 's it 's not a good idea , and we have already mentioned all the arguments . i do n't uh , do you guys agre how do you guys think ? i d user interface: no , it 's too much . marketing: i think it 's a little too much , yeah . user interface: it 's overdone . project manager: okay , we s skip the lcd display . user interface: industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: i 'm sorry , maybe you can do something if we are at your own place , or make it make it make it happen in your basement or something . user interface: democratically . industrial designer: marketing: no . user interface: industrial designer: mayb marketing: . project manager: but industrial designer: i will rule the world with it . project manager: probably so . marketing: yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . project manager: okay . but for the technical part . the m material , i think uh it was a good idea to use the plastic and uh the rubber . uh industrial designer: yes , maybe a bit of a cushion is project manager: yeah yeah yeah , p exactly . this is what it w yeah , but it it was already what we 're uh we 're after , you know , to give it uh , you know , the soft touch in your hands marketing: yeah , for the spongy uh feel . yeah . industrial designer: yes . user interface: with a spongy bob feel . project manager: and also to , know , like user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , that is y the b airbag kind of thing . industrial designer: like a b yes . project manager: you can st throw it at your little brother 's head . user interface: yeah , you just can drop it . yeah . marketing: yeah , airbag . if you drop it if you drop it the airbag comes out , yeah . project manager: yeah . no no no , not that comfy . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: maybe it marketing: industrial designer: but then we have to look that it uh w uh will not um be too childish to see . project manager: yeah yeah . yeah . okay , that 's a that 's a good point . and that 's why i like the dark t col dark colour bit , you know , because it may be the design uh , it 's uh maybe it is a bit of the marketing: yeah . user interface: but not black i think . project manager: it 's a bit nineties maybe , what we 're what we 're up to rat fun to this point . marketing: no . user interface: well if if it 's fruit and vegetables , it have to be colourful . project manager: yeah , that 's that 's true , but but it has to be a little big solid . marketing: yeah , b yeah , that 's what w i i was pointing at . user interface: but can we ge uh uh project manager: it must n't be too , n you know , th too overwhelming , then when you put it on your just user interface: can we combine it or something ? uh with uh yellow and black ? project manager: yeah . yeah , maybe so . user interface: make it a bee ? a bee . marketing: what ? oh , a bee . oh . project manager: no , uh i do n't like the yellow and black combination . but it is our company colours . apparently . user interface: yeah , it 's our yeah . we we have to use yellow . industrial designer: yes , real real good colours . project manager: marketing: yeah . hmm . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: i do n't like yellow , and uh maybe i do n't know . marketing: well , we can as as i industrial designer: but that 's not really fruity . marketing: draw really nicely over there . we can put the logo on our uh on our base station . uh , yeah . and maybe very very tiny on the remote control itself . project manager: but marketing: but , i project manager: okay , but what uh , what are other tef technical things we have to discuss ? user interface: project manager: industrial designer: uh fronts of the we can have uh different uh uh fronts of the project manager: should we do that ? industrial designer: telephone . project manager: i do n't think you we should do that . maybe just bring it out in different colours , user interface: different fronts . project manager: but not af that you can switch fronts afterwards , that 's also too much . marketing: yeah . i guess that 's that 's enough . project manager: people do n't wan na spend more money on their remote control , i guess . marketing: that 's way too nokia . user interface: yeah . uh , you can you can l uh let choose the customer which colour he wants , yeah . industrial designer: are these designs ? project manager: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah , definitely . just bring more designs on the market . user interface: yeah , three three or four uh four uh colours , or something like that . project manager: but uh , without gon uh marketing: why not , yeah . project manager: okay . so , are we through the technical part then ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: okay . so we uh agreed upon uh n uh well , not u unanimously or how you call it , but yeah . user interface: well , yeah , industrial designer: it this a real uh young young and dynamic uh uh styles . user interface: the three to one . that 's project manager: the materials you uh mentioned in your your personal preferences were all were quite okay . industrial designer: yes . project manager: o o only only the last point your user interface: and tita uh titanium , is uh is is it a no ? industrial designer: yes , project manager: no titanium 's not not out of question , i guess . user interface: is it 's just like that , th this titanium . industrial designer: but also w yes , b bu but when we use s soft project manager: but is it possible to use both the the plastic and so uh soft things and t p titanium , as well ? industrial designer: mm marketing: sure . project manager: makes it in a homogeneous uh design . industrial designer: mm . user interface: no , not all , not all of them . industrial designer: but it it then it uh you ca n't throw it it . it will uh make a huge noise or break other stuff project manager: it will it will break other stuff w when it 's plastic , as well . industrial designer: when you throw with uh titanium with your remote control . user interface: industrial designer: no uh , marketing: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: titanium is a bit uh it 's a bit harder . marketing: yeah , that 's true . project manager: no , but uh uh , you should ma yeah . industrial designer: but also on the colours , the young project manager: okay , think of the possibilities and make it in completely titanium . well would it be more trendy ? more chic ? marketing: yeah , i think it i think it does . user interface: uh , i think titanium nowadays is way more often used than plastic . industrial designer: yes , but a titanium remote control , when you 're uh watching tv uh or your hands are a little bit sweaty , and the user interface: in trendy things . marketing: yeah , o on the other hand , if you want to make fruit fruity stuff with uh user interface: yeah . it 's cold in the winter . project manager: yeah , but i i really like the idea of the the the plastic and the big kind of thing . industrial designer: yes . project manager: but the question is i then it 's , you know , is is it fits in our s philosophy to make it uh sturdy and simple and uh , know , like uh user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , that 's true , that 's true . industrial designer: sports and gaming . define project manager: when you make it titanium , it becomes more like some kind of gadget you actually do n't need . and when it 's big and plastic , it 's like some fun stuff you can always have around . it 's always fun to have something big and plastic around . user interface: you have that uh m_p_ three player of nike , i saw . marketing: yes . yeah . user interface: is n't that titanium with a little bit of rubber ? industrial designer: yes , it 's w but it is uh plastic . user interface: is n't it is plastic ? well , it 's titanium looking . industrial designer: yes , w we can do that on the on the marketing: what ? user interface: yeah , he is . here he is . uh , the i do n't know if you know the m_p_ three player of nike . 'kay , uh that that 's very uh with rubber , so it 's very marketing: oh , yeah . okay , yeah . project manager: yeah , that 's beautiful . marketing: yeah , i see . industrial designer: we can make this as a style too . marketing: yeah , but but but user interface: rough . industrial designer: uh , this is uh just a project manager: oh , maybe th maybe this is an marketing: yeah , i th i think that 's difficult , because uh that 's different material , and then you got ta have like uh uh uh two material lines of of of industrial designer: no , we c we can make it from the same kind of plastic . marketing: yeah , if it 's just a colour uh which you uh which you change then , i guess it 's it 's nice to have one of these . project manager: no , i do like the idea of maybe a t titanium kind type of body w and then with s plastic colouration around it . industrial designer: uh marketing: uh project manager: you know , like the the soft stuff , marketing: yeah . project manager: but i do n't know if it 's possible . industrial designer: i do n't have the information . uh , i i did n't got it project manager: but you ca n't make the plastic give uh the ti titanium look . user interface: true . industrial designer: yes . project manager: but make it just like shiny . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah yeah , true . project manager: maybe we should uh shou industrial designer: like the m_p_ three player . user interface: yeah , maybe that 's good idea , yeah . but if you want to la uh yeah , last longer than two weeks or something like that , you can maybe marketing: yeah . project manager: and uh and marketing: project manager: maybe we sh should we t i do n't know if we should talk about uh , how how much time have we got left ? industrial designer: uh , in a lot of other uh user interface: i do n't know . project manager: forty minutes . user interface: what time does industrial designer: in a lot of other product uh categories like uh even in b in bags industry . uh , they began with uh t typical uh leather bags , but then they became stylish , with all all si all sort of colours , and w kind of fon of uh of fronts , like we can use on the telephone and it marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: like eastpack uh began a revolution with it with all this uh kind of bags and and colours and and project manager: you putting in different colours . industrial designer: yes , and and styles . project manager: okay . industrial designer: they have uh also uh a kind of uh um uh roses on it , a and uh marketing: uh yeah , yeah . project manager: okay . yeah , but w yeah . user interface: project manager: well , it is . it 's a possibility . but , let 's think about the bas industrial designer: then we can always uh use the same design for a greater resemblance , but with new uh with new colours , new marketing: yes . new prints on it . yep . project manager: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . industrial designer: yes . project manager: but wha th our basic idea y i mean , you gon na we 're probably gon na have like two type of materials , like the d d b the plastic uh enclosure and then the the pads that surround it . and and pro and lights . we have to incorporate the lights too . but , uh do w gon na gon na are we going to give it a two-tone colour look , like the the plastic mould is in in one colour and the s the cushion pads around it are in another colour ? is that the idea ? is that a good idea ? marketing: how do you mean ? th th the uh base in a in another project manager: how many colours are we how many colours are we gon na we 're uh uh f uh f user interface: the rubber . project manager: only five minutes left , by the way . how many colours are we gon na give it ? marketing: yes . project manager: like two-tone colour ? t industrial designer: there there are three uh components three components type . user interface: yeah . uh no , not too much i think . industrial designer: you have the buttons , the the case uh itself , and the rubber and th marketing: how the buttons yeah . project manager: i think maybe the case itself should be in one colour and then the rubber of the buttons , and the cushions as well should be in another colour . industrial designer: yes . user interface: or you just make uh one colour , uh maybe with a a z a kind of like a big wave or something like uh marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , but not more than user interface: in in another colour . project manager: well , yeah , it 's user interface: not more than two colours i think . project manager: no . user interface: it 's a g a little bit too flashy . marketing: no , definitely not . project manager: maybe we should talk about it on a l in a later meeting . industrial designer: yeah , or or when you use the buttons as black , it you can use two colours as well uh marketing: yes , definitely . project manager: okay . but we have to uh think of some other uh important things . industrial designer: project manager: uh oh yeah , the the functionalities of the the buttons . user interface: the funct yeah , i was i was thinking about th the st do we still want a joystick idea . project manager: no . marketing: no , i think that 's too vulnerable . project manager: i think this is okay , user interface: yeah . project manager: the so we have the basic . then we have the numbers . we have the power button . we have we have a teletext button . user interface: the volume , teletext and project manager: and maybe want to access a a menu or something . most tvs have a menu . marketing: yeah , but that 's that 's i was thinking that 's got ta be on the television . user interface: project manager: yeah , but i think you ha i really need a menu button . user interface: yeah yeah yeah yeah , b project manager: that 's just i the only button only user interface: yeah , but wha what kind of menu ? project manager: you know , i user interface: is uh is n't that different from every television ? project manager: no , i think most tvs have an uh a menu nowadays to access the uh uh screen settings . and so marketing: mm . yeah , if it 's c if yeah , i think it 's okay to to add a menu button for uh user interface: project manager: but that that covers all the all the other settings . it covers everything then . marketing: and if the tv does n't have a menu , then industrial designer: but then you have to put uh up and down and uh left and right marketing: yeah . project manager: no , you can use the marketing: yeah , you can put that on the two eight four and six or whatever . project manager: and you al can also use the normal skip buttons for that . industrial designer: okay . project manager: th in that way we have like only the numbers , the power button , skip and volume , and then uh uh ten uh rem marketing: mm , yeah . a mute and a teletext and a menu . project manager: uh yeah , mute . a teletext and a menu , and then then i that 's it . user interface: mute . project manager: it 's all we need . marketing: that 's all . user interface: yeah . marketing: hmm . project manager: okay , uh another stuf some stuff about the the the design of the docking station . marketing: great . yeah . user interface: okay , that 's not mu not much functions . so project manager: something important about a s uh , no , uh which sh uh should remind us of the remote itself , i guess . marketing: yeah , definitely . project manager: uh , in one colour . marketing: are we gon na do something with the uh spongy thing there ? project manager: just use i think the spongy thing already um comes forward in the in the in the cushions , pads and things on the s uh side . industrial designer: uh marketing: yeah , that 's true , that 's true . project manager: and we will make it spongy and and uh and uh well , the fruity thing is just the shape should be fru i did i think this is kind of fruity , you know . just round shapes with uh user interface: marketing: yeah , it 's kinda fruity , and with th with catchy colours uh uh w project manager: yeah , but we 're gon na have to we really have to think i think colours is very important , because it has to be flashy , but and but it d it does n't have to be annoying , that when you uh , know , some things is just over the top , and when you have it on your table for more than two weeks , you it just gets annoying , because it 's so big and flashy . marketing: yeah , definitely . project manager: uh , it has to be some level of subtlety , but we have to still have to think of how we manage to uh to get to that . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . guess we 're through then . marketing: okay . user interface: okay . marketing: i guess so . project manager: but we i think also we just so we have to do something with colour but also , i i think we have to keep the dark colour thing in mind . i think that 's uh adds to the user interface: yeah . marketing: yes . project manager: too much colour maybe m um user interface: too much colour , i it uh when you got it in a living room , it 's too much maybe project manager: but our des design experts will uh work that out . marketing: yea yeah . user interface: . it has to be project manager: okay , well i think the meeting will be over within a minute . user interface: yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: so we will wrap up . marketing: something like that . project manager: or is there anything we 'd like to discuss ? that 's right . marketing: i guess not . project manager: okay . marketing: do you , guys ? user interface: no . marketing: no ? project manager: okay . well , you will read the minutes uh in the you can find them in the user interface: oh , okay , yeah . marketing: in the shared folder . project manager: pro probably . yeah uh no , for su for sure because i 'm will now type them out . industrial designer: what are we going to do now ? project manager: uh , y yeah . marketing: you 'll see in you email , i guess . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think uh industrial designer: marketing: yeah , i do n't know . i do n't know . user interface: i hope so . and the other thing is that you do n't have kind of prototype or something like that . you see a kinda prototype you can a little bit more uh industrial designer: i will make one in the next uh twenty minutes . user interface: yeah . marketing: construct one , yeah . project manager: but toilet paper roll and uh user interface: with you laptop ? yeah . marketing: project manager: okay . user interface: oh my god . marketing: alright , shall we get back to work ? project manager: yep . i was waiting for the l last message , but marketing: great . user interface: well you are . we 're not . marketing: yeah . bastard . user interface: industrial designer: back to the pen . project manager: mm yeah . marketing: you lazy industrial designer: { vocalsound }

this meeting talked about the conceptual design of the remote control product . industrial designer gave the first presentation , stating the personal preference for components designs . user interface delivered the second . it led to a following discussion about basic function types as well as the size of their buttons . next , marketing 's presentation identified the three most important aspects of remote design and expressed the focus on the trend on the elder market . as such , the group started to discuss how to meet the satisfaction of different age markets with the design . after that , project manager steered the meeting to further questions , including technical functions , material , color design , buttons functionality , and docking station design .

summarize the presentation on components design . </s> project manager: okay , all set ? welcome to the conceptual design meeting . user interface: uh , okay . industrial designer: yes . project manager: the agenda . the opening . i 'll again be the secretary and make minutes , take minutes , uh and it will be three presentations , just like the last meeting . so um , who wants to start off ? technical uh designer again ? user interface: again . project manager: okay . user interface: hmm . project manager: uh , yeah . uh , before we begin it , i want to say i 've i 've put the minutes of the uh second meeting in the shared folder , but they 're still not uh quite okay . it uh it uh still some technical difficulties so the the first part of the minutes are very hard to read , because there are two documents that uh were layered over each other . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: project manager: so marketing: okay . project manager: but uh , from now on i wo n't use my pen anymore , so will be p just ordinary keyboard . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: user interface: uh , may be better , yeah . marketing: keyboard work . yeah . project manager: i think it will will be more uh easy for you to read the minutes . user interface: yeah . marketing: alright . industrial designer: okay , when we talk about uh components design , um it 's really about the material and the and uh uh really the stuff we build uh the remote controls of . um , a remote control consist of uh components and the components of a remote control consist of uh properties and material . we have to choose th uh these uh wisely and it could affect uh uh a kind of grow of in uh in buying uh the remote controls . um , the components of a remote control are of course uh the case . uh the properties of the case , um it has to be solid uh in hard material like uh hard plastic uh with soft rubber for uh falling and and uh uh yeah , it feels uh good in your hand . marketing: industrial designer: mm the buttons has to be uh solid too , and the material is soft rubber . uh i 've got a uh email from the possibilities of real reaction . um uh they 're telling me that um when we build uh a remote control of um of plastic or rubber , the uh buttons have to be uh rubber too . mm it 's okay . yeah . i when we use a rubbled a doubled curved case , we must use a rubber push-buttons to uh the the rubber double-curved case is a is a t uh three-dimensional uh curve in the in the design , which is uh necessary when we want to be trendy . uh um user interface: oh . industrial designer: the energy source , uh i 've got a lot of possibilities for that too . um , uh the basic battery , which i thi prefer because of its uh its non uh non-depending of of of uh um uh here you have to have a hand uh yeah , kinetic uh energy . also in uh this one , like in the watches , but a remote control can lie on a table for a day , and then you push uh a button and so you do n't have to uh walk with it all the all the time . mm , solar cells are also uh a bit weird for uh remote controls . marketing: project manager: industrial designer: um uh also the case material , uh i think that plastic is the is the best with rubber , because uh wood or titanium would also be a bit weird . user interface: oh titanium is probably trendy , i think . . marketing: that 's true , i guess . yeah . user interface: well , maybe a little bit expensive . marketing: user interface: i do n't know . industrial designer: uh , they do n't tell anything about the cost of uh titanium . marketing: huh . industrial designer: um the chip uh the chip set uh and the board is uh all off the shelf . also , the speaker in the remote control , when we want to retrieve it . um , the base station is also off the shelf , all the materials and the components are uh just available in uh in our uh factory . mm , i 've told about uh the three first points . mm , the simple electronical chip uh is is available uh with the led transmitter uh transmitter . uh , it 's all uh off the shelf and even the speaker and the wireless retriever are all uh available in our company . um , another possibility . i uh yeah , i looked up on was uh the lcd displays . could be uh something special to our uh remote control , and it 's possible , but it only cost a bit more , but maybe it can be uh within the limits of twenty five euros . project manager: twelve and a half . actually industrial designer: ah yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , production cost . industrial designer: i th i got an email with uh some examples and it these were were the most trendiest one . user interface: industrial designer: you see uh a covers , which can be project manager: what are those , t tooth uh brushes , or so user interface: industrial designer: um , i do n't know . um marketing: project manager: but it 's actually kind of uh user interface: i project manager: well , it resembles the design i had in mind for this proj industrial designer: yes . project manager: you know the the cartoonish alessi kind of design . marketing: yep . industrial designer: yes , maybe we can uh bri uh bring a couple of uh couple of types of uh project manager: and we can we can steal their ideas . marketing: industrial designer: maybe a kind of uh whole uh um a whole set of uh different uh remote controls . project manager: huh . industrial designer: maybe we can bring a whole line uh with uh with a huge variety of uh project manager: well , it 's a possibility , too . industrial designer: uh house uh stuff . user interface: different colours also . industrial designer: like uh maybe radios and uh television also uh in this in this in the same style , but project manager: uh-uh . marketing: yeah , that 'll be for the future , i guess . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: next time we 're here . industrial designer: yes , because we have to uh we have to we have to bring the logo and all the stuff uh back into it . marketing: yeah . project manager: oh , okay . marketing: yeah . definitely . project manager: okay . user interface: okay . industrial designer: thank you . marketing: alright . user interface: uh marketing: yeah . that 's okay . user interface: ah . marketing: user interface: well , i shall go to the next slide . um marketing: user interface: um , i still do n't have any information about user requirements . marketing: user interface: i was thinking about just uh the basic functions and i got uh project manager: oh , we decided upon that in the last meeting . did n't we ? user interface: yeah , but but then wh i do n't know when there are new user requirements . project manager: oh , okay . well , tha i did n't receive any new requirements or somethi user interface: i ha i ha i have the i have project manager: just user interface: nothing . project manager: no , but we decided to use only b basic functions only . user interface: well , i have here a couple of basic functions i could think of . project manager: okay . user interface: i dunno if they 're maybe a little bit more , but project manager: well we maybe we can think of that later . w just user interface: yeah . project manager: these are the ones you already summed up in the user interface: yeah , i i uh well , i pointed them out here , just to make it a little bit easier . project manager: okay . user interface: um another function uh is of course we already discuss it on the side . um , i do n't know what costs of it . uh , i 've no idea about it . uh , i was also looking for what you said , for i got an email uh uh about uh lcd in in in front of the remote control . i do n't know if that 's a good idea , or maybe it 's a little bit too much for twelve and a half . production . project manager: yeah . user interface: if we got already uh something like a base . industrial designer: uh-huh . project manager: that might get redundant also maybe . i do n't know what kind of information it would user interface: yeah , i do n't know . i d i uh ju i was just thinking about it . then i got a pop-ups to go to the meeting . but marketing: mm yeah . project manager: yeah . yeah , it 's okay . industrial designer: maybe we can bring t uh uh teletext to the t to the remote control . user interface: the remote control . marketing: then you project manager: user interface: a little uh too a little bit marketing: and then you 've got a flag s very big r_c_ . yeah . project manager: okay . that 's not it was not a good idea . user interface: a little bit too big , i think . exactly . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: okay . user interface: um , yeah . well , the functions are are not more to discuss , i think . project manager: no . no . user interface: it 's it 's just the base things we already discussed that the no v_c_r_ or that kind of marketing: no . user interface: uh , so that 's very easy . um project manager: but you do mention the next and previous uh button . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: user interface: well , that 's next channel . i mean next channel . marketing: next channel , previous channel . project manager: oh , okay , o okay okay . user interface: uh um oh , i i got an email with with an uh a remote control with a base . project manager: huh . user interface: so , it 's uh just an idea . and i um uh thinked of the button sizes and i 'm not sure uh if they have to be big or uh just small industrial designer: but you 're the expert . marketing: i think it depends on the function . user interface: well , i 'm not a e i 'm the expert for user-friendly , but not for trendiness . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: maybe it marketing: well , if you save uh perhaps uh s tiny buttons are n't user-friendly , then we would n't im implement that of course . project manager: user interface: well uh industrial designer: marketing: user interface: okay , that 's your point . um , yeah . yeah , okay . marketing: user interface: yeah , i 've nothing to s industrial designer: project manager: well , w when we only use basic functions , we have the possibility to make the buttons larger . marketing: oh , that 's right . user interface: uh , with a little bit larger , yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: i thought so , but maybe with the project manager: well , i think we already agreed upon the fact that the the the skip buttons and the cha and the volume buttons , th th those two have yeah , they have to be large . user interface: yeah , that groups . project manager: uh , i mean th th the the two two basic buttons , you know , the to skip channels and to uh user interface: large ? yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: i think yeah , i do n't know why , but i think that is that 's t trendy too , user interface: most the most used uh buttons . marketing: those are probably the the th project manager: because that 's the mo it it you know , it 's uh acc acc um accentu uh , how do you say it ? it puts an extra accent on the the on the simplicity of our remotes to j to make these two most basic functions extra big , like t marketing: yes . user interface: true . yeah . marketing: those are probably the b four most most used buttons on the th in the remote control . project manager: yeah . and you want to acc accentuate that , you know . industrial designer: you did the research . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: it 's from your research . marketing: sorry ? yeah , sure . project manager: so user interface: okay . uh , that was all y industrial designer: user interface: uh personal preference i did n't have . project manager: okay . user interface: i did n't had any time left . project manager: no uh , that 's coo it 's cool . industrial designer: marketing: you do n't care . no , sorry . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: yeah . user interface: marketing: oh . go away . user interface: it 's there . marketing: come on . user interface: yeah , click on it . marketing: . user interface: couple time . marketing: oh , great . well , i 've done some research again about trends on the internet . um i 've done some investigation , and uh well i uh got some information from fashion watchers from paris and uh milan . some uh some findings the most important thing is fancy look and feel of the remote control . uh , well , we were going to imply that , so that 's nice . the second important thing is uh innovative technology in the r_c_ . uh , our market really likes really likes that . and uh the third point there in this uh order if of importance , the third point , is a high ease of use . and uh , well , for the idea , i 've put some trends uh for the market of elderly people . industrial designer: marketing: dark colours , simple recognisable shapes . so we probably wo n't do that . user interface: marketing: the younger market likes uh well , the themes of of this year are uh surprisingly fruits and vegetables and spongy material . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: i found this image , which is uh well , it symbolises the idea of fruits and vegetables . i do n't see the spongy part in it . but with a little bit of fancy project manager: well maybe c then we have to do something with sponge bob then . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: exactly . i got some ideas user interface: marketing: uh well , yeah , pictures is n't really good word , but um industrial designer: marketing: some symbols of fruits or vegetables maybe . uh , catchy colours . industrial designer: marketing: fruit is uh yellow , green , red , whatever . user interface: marketing: so , remote controls in in catchy colours . project manager: it does n't stroke with the with the dark colours . marketing: uh , no , we do n't want dark colours . project manager: not the dark colours ? okay . marketing: no , i just put them there to uh , yeah , uh for general idea . project manager: okay . marketing: and uh , the docking st industrial designer: marketing: uh i think the spongy material is is very irritating for the uh remote control itself . but to industrial designer: marketing: yeah , the to implement some spongy thing , maybe we can do it in the in the docking station . at the bottom of the docking station or whatever . and uh , we could bring one line with a dark colour uh to um uh p uh yeah industrial designer: marketing: uh uh v how do you say ? project manager: for diversity or something . uh marketing: yeah , also a bit for elderly people who are a little bit crazy and want maybe want a little younger design but still the dark colour . user interface: well , how uh industrial designer: marketing: i mean it it it reaches a different market uh , but it it it does n't cost really much effort to b to uh bring uh like a black r_c_ on the market or whatever . yes . user interface: but how do we use uh fruits and vegetables in christ 's sake with remote control ? industrial designer: project manager: no , but i i i think that uh our design already resembles so a piece of fruit . marketing: yeah , there 's there 's always a user interface: uh , make it a banana ? project manager: it 's like a pear or something . user interface: marketing: well there there 's always empty space of course on a remote control . i mean i think this part of the r_c_ uh well the upper the upper part or whatever is uh is not not used with buttons , i guess . project manager: no , i do n't think you have to do it like industrial designer: user interface: marketing: so you you can put some fruity things project manager: yeah , but it that does n't have to remind you , you know , like explicitly of s our f of a of a specific piece of fruit , but just , you know , like the the the the round curves . industrial designer: marketing: no , of course not . project manager: and so y i i think this y it already sem resembles uh something like a pear to me or something . marketing: especially i user interface: yeah , but th yeah , but that marketing: yeah , yeah . yeah , exactly . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , but that 's marketing: if we make it little bit greenish . project manager: you do get the idea , eh ? the fruity kind of round user interface: yeah uh uh project manager: 'kay . marketing: a and we could use one of these for the uh w what is it ? project manager: yeah , uh yeah , i do n't know . industrial designer: grapes . marketing: uh industrial designer: project manager: uh , this is a b yeah . marketing: is n't wha whatever . user interface: but d do n't we need a creative artist or something like that to m make it to feel like a a a a vegetable or fruit ? industrial designer: project manager: yeah , yeah . of course we have uh marketing: yeah , sure . project manager: we have a very big uh the s marketing: yeah . well , w we can uh w we can we can produce multiple uh multiple things . industrial designer: for a big team of artists . project manager: of d design team , yeah . user interface: marketing: this is then the uh pear . i do n't know the english word , so forget it . project manager: yeah , but it 's pear , i guess . marketing: and um , maybe , yeah , a b a banana is uh is n not easy for a remote control , but m yeah . industrial designer: but uh but i think we do n't have to make project manager: no . industrial designer: we ca n't make all uh ten designs . we have to make one design i th i i think . project manager: no , but i think it 's it 's already what we were were up to . marketing: mayb maybe two or three . user interface: yeah . project manager: uh , it 's it does n't have to resemble uh what i already said , a specific piece of fruit , but just , you know , like a fruity thing going on . user interface: marketing: yeah . no sure , but but project manager: and it 's it looks fruity to me . user interface: marketing: b but that 's great , and and and what i was project manager: and uh , but i do like the marketing: what what i was saying , the catchy colours project manager: yeah , i do like uh the f uh to the idea of making a a y uh , a catchy colour design and a d because i do i think a dark colour would be nice too . industrial designer: but pictures of fruit , vegetables vegetables marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe it 's too much , you know . user interface: but , we we have to um there have to be the the the the firm colours , our own uh colours has to be in it . marketing: yeah , uh not really . pictures was a was a bad word , but project manager: okay , but what are the this is yellow . marketing: well we c yeah . user interface: yellow , a real reaction . industrial designer: yes , you can put a logo on top of it . project manager: but i do n't think our our company colours are this fashionable . marketing: yeah , sure . user interface: uh , yeah . marketing: maybe we can if if we got our docking station over here . user interface: we uh f industrial designer: yes , it 's really fruity . marketing: i ca n't draw with this thing , but i 'll try . user interface: a yellow do marketing: if this is our docking station , we can make our logo over here . user interface: uh , yeah . marketing: it does n't work . and then user interface: yeah , and the button then . industrial designer: with a strawberry on top . project manager: yeah , on uh n uh on the bottom of the remote you can do marketing: well , the button button over here or whatever , user interface: okay , yeah . marketing: i do n't know . on the front , of course , because else you ca n't find it . user interface: okay . marketing: well , that were my ideas a little bit . project manager: okay . marketing: i 'll close 'em down . um , go away . project manager: okay , you can you open the conceptual design presentation ? marketing: conceptual design , yes . project manager: see what was on the agenda . user interface: lazy . marketing: the agenda . project manager: this is his own remote . because um , maybe we can start with the technical uh functions , user interface: yeah . project manager: but i do n't think it 's there uh , yeah um , do we want to um use an lcd display , for example ? marketing: well , it 's nice , of course . but i do n't i do n't know what to display on it . industrial designer: only if we project manager: me neither . industrial designer: maybe maybe we can make a tv guide on it , for the channel you 're on . marketing: i mean project manager: yeah , but it 's so marketing: yeah , but it should be li like this big , and i do n't think industrial designer: no , no , only the tv channel with the with uh with uh four programmes . project manager: i do n't think we should do it . industrial designer: you can uh zap through them with the page up page down button . marketing: yes sure , but it it has to to show an entire title of a programme or at least a q a quite quite large part of it and then you get a very large lcd screen , because industrial designer: yes , it can on your no , on your mobile phone you can y you can read text also . so why not on your remote ? project manager: yeah , but no . i do i think it 's a bit redundant , actually . marketing: yeah , i do n't know . project manager: and it 's also not i do n't th even think it it looks s like sexy or something , user interface: well well what would you display on it then ? project manager: it 's industrial designer: uh , programme uh information or or or or g or a guide marketing: programme information . user interface: but is it is n't that a already on tv , a lot of new tvs ? marketing: but industrial designer: on t on teletext , yes . also on the internet . marketing: well a lot a lot of tvs indeed show uh when you uh zap to a industrial designer: but project manager: but you 're already watching the tv , you 're not gon na watch your remote control . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes , but you also want to know what 's next . marketing: but then we also uh w need to bring out a line of tvs which we were planning to , user interface: yeah , project manager: user interface: and we also have to yeah . marketing: but whatever . because the tv has to send information back to the r_c_ , and i do n't know if that 's possible . industrial designer: yes , that 's uh really possible . project manager: marketing: yes , yes , o of course it 's possible , user interface: marketing: but you got ta uh implement it in the tvs , and i do n't think everyone 's gon na buy a real reaction tv within a month after the release of our uh remote control . industrial designer: project manager: i really understand you want to make your job more exciting by putting an lcd in it , user interface: and i also industrial designer: user interface: marketing: project manager: but i i really do n't think it 's a good n goo because it also does n't stroke with we wanted uh c when we talk about the materials , uh it 's a good idea to use these plastic materials with soft rubber stuff on it . it was our idea , you know , to give it a more sturdy look and that you ca like you can throw with it . marketing: yeah . project manager: but i do n't think a lcd display fits in that image . you know , it 's like more vulnerable , and it adds nothing really , you know . marketing: that 's true , that 's true , it breaks f yeah , it it it 's not very solid , it 's uh frag fragile . project manager: yeah , yeah . you could make it , but it 's just it it does n't i do n't think it it 's coherent with the design we 're after . marketing: no . no . i do n't think so ei either . project manager: but that 's my opinion . well , you you y okay , we can vote for it . you want the lcd display . i do n't want to and he does n't , so it 's up to him . industrial designer: no . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: if we wan na user interface: yeah , i dunno . marketing: . ah . industrial designer: project manager: and i 've read somewhere that i 've got some kind of veto veto uh rights . user interface: . oh , okay . industrial designer: marketing: bastard . project manager: so i can also say user interface: we can you away . project manager: but did we skip the yeah , you could do marketing: project manager: m but what what i so what i but do you think we should user interface: yeah , i do n't know . uh , uh i i if it 's it 's a simple p project manager: we 're not even sure what what information we want to display on it . so user interface: no , that that 's right , industrial designer: no uh um user interface: and uh i also have to think about new functions , maybe buttons or something like that to control it . kind of lcd or something or industrial designer: y yes , you can use uh buttons uh uh w that are already uh on the remote control for double functions . marketing: yeah , i guess . user interface: but how does it display then ? w when i go to the second channel , what what does it show me ? industrial designer: uh , then you push a button . the title and the information about the programme . user interface: about that programme ? industrial designer: but but uh yeah , what he said was right , about the televisions , they have to be uh customised to the project manager: nah , that 's not gon na work . industrial designer: but maybe in future it will be a giant hit , and when you are the first marketing: no . project manager: yeah . oh , well uh i 've seen it done before . industrial designer: you have the biggest uh project manager: do you know th like the the bigger rem uh universal remotes , they have d lcd displays , user interface: yeah . project manager: but then it 's very functional to indicate which what uh uh device you are controlling . so it 's that that 's what i 've seen . industrial designer: yes , you can put uh a little lcd display on it with uh with lots of information . marketing: yeah , that 's true , if you uh yeah . project manager: but it just it j it does n't does n't match with the our whole basic concept . industrial designer: but uh i have n't thought about it . but whe but when you put a a a transparent uh plastic uh uh screen on top of it , it i it is n't vulnerable . project manager: well yeah , yeah , okay . that 's maybe not the most important , industrial designer: you can throw with it and project manager: but it 's just user interface: is it fashion ? project manager: i do n't think so . industrial designer: when when you put uh maybe a colour lcd t uh screen on it , it 's very special and very trendy to have uh a remote control from user interface: i do n't know . that 's not up to you . that 's up to market if i if it 's trendy . project manager: yeah , well do you ha do you have to you have n't looked after the trendiness of lcd displays , have you ? marketing: no . industrial designer: user interface: because our our motto is we put fashion marketing: well , i think it 's uh i think it 's pretty trendy , to be honest , uh but um i do n't know if if if well , i 'm coming back to the costs again , but i think uh we got ta build a b pretty cheap design to to stay within our limits . and i think uh especially colour lcd , which is indeed pretty trendy . but i do n't think uh , i think it will be too expensive . industrial designer: but uh i 've got a the email with uh with the possibilities . and lcd was a possibility for the remote control . project manager: user interface: project manager: yeah yeah yeah . industrial designer: so why do n't we use it . project manager: yeah , but we 're gon na if it marketing: uh , did it say a price also uh for for uh monogramme uh lcd or uh coloured lcd ? user interface: yeah , if you want to be trendy you have to be coloured . coloured marketing: yeah really , user interface: if you have black and white or something , or grey , that 's marketing: if y if you c i project manager: then uh then you better do n't yeah , d marketing: i in in two thousand and four you ca n't uh put something on the market which is a monogramme . project manager: user interface: marketing: really . industrial designer: no , but it does n't sa say anything about a colour or but , mm , i alf i also got a possibility to put uh a scroll button on it . but project manager: uh uh i really do n't feel the whole idea of an lcd display . industrial designer: i did n't think that marketing: project manager: i 'm sorry . it ca n't co you can not convince me . i do n't know how well how to with you guys , but i do n't really feel it . we already we 're uh user interface: it 's too much uh maybe uh with with the lcd and the docking station and project manager: yeah , we already have the the th th th base station gadgets , marketing: yeah . project manager: and want and it uh uh , do it has to be a simple design , which sturdy , which soft industrial designer: yes , but o on the marketing: w we 've we 've got ta find a balance , of course . user interface: with one thing special . marketing: and i think user interface: not a whole package of specialty . project manager: i do n't think i j uh , and really , i do n't see how the the lcd display is gon na add anything , you know , on a design level . uh , i think it 's slicker to have no l_ ceds . industrial designer: no , when y project manager: y we want to it 's simplicity , w you have two big buttons and you can do whatever you want with these two buttons , so you do n't need an lcd . industrial designer: but it look yes , but that remote controls are already on the market . the simple project manager: it does n't fit in our philosophy uh behind the whole remote . industrial designer: yes , but but when you want to have something special project manager: yeah , but we already have the docking station , which is industrial designer: yes , but you had a picture of it from another company . user interface: and uh the marketing: we have a pear . project manager: it has to be developed , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: but no , but it that 's industrial designer: project manager: that 's our that 's our killer feature . user interface: it 's just an it 's just an idea . marketing: project manager: that 's our what makes it special . user interface: it 's a it 's industrial designer: yes , it was already made . tha the remote control on the docking station . project manager: yeah , we 're gon na develop our own r n docking station . user interface: true . marketing: is that so ? was it it was n't just a prototype ? user interface: well uh i uh industrial designer: yes , he have a picture of it . project manager: user interface: yeah , i dunno . industrial designer: marketing: exactly , i 've never seen it in a store . project manager: uh , but re we really have to cut this off , user interface: project manager: i re i know you i i i i i get the idea you really like it , you know , the the lcd thing , but i i think it 's it 's not a good idea , and we have already mentioned all the arguments . i do n't uh , do you guys agre how do you guys think ? i d user interface: no , it 's too much . marketing: i think it 's a little too much , yeah . user interface: it 's overdone . project manager: okay , we s skip the lcd display . user interface: industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: i 'm sorry , maybe you can do something if we are at your own place , or make it make it make it happen in your basement or something . user interface: democratically . industrial designer: marketing: no . user interface: industrial designer: mayb marketing: . project manager: but industrial designer: i will rule the world with it . project manager: probably so . marketing: yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . project manager: okay . but for the technical part . the m material , i think uh it was a good idea to use the plastic and uh the rubber . uh industrial designer: yes , maybe a bit of a cushion is project manager: yeah yeah yeah , p exactly . this is what it w yeah , but it it was already what we 're uh we 're after , you know , to give it uh , you know , the soft touch in your hands marketing: yeah , for the spongy uh feel . yeah . industrial designer: yes . user interface: with a spongy bob feel . project manager: and also to , know , like user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , that is y the b airbag kind of thing . industrial designer: like a b yes . project manager: you can st throw it at your little brother 's head . user interface: yeah , you just can drop it . yeah . marketing: yeah , airbag . if you drop it if you drop it the airbag comes out , yeah . project manager: yeah . no no no , not that comfy . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: maybe it marketing: industrial designer: but then we have to look that it uh w uh will not um be too childish to see . project manager: yeah yeah . yeah . okay , that 's a that 's a good point . and that 's why i like the dark t col dark colour bit , you know , because it may be the design uh , it 's uh maybe it is a bit of the marketing: yeah . user interface: but not black i think . project manager: it 's a bit nineties maybe , what we 're what we 're up to rat fun to this point . marketing: no . user interface: well if if it 's fruit and vegetables , it have to be colourful . project manager: yeah , that 's that 's true , but but it has to be a little big solid . marketing: yeah , b yeah , that 's what w i i was pointing at . user interface: but can we ge uh uh project manager: it must n't be too , n you know , th too overwhelming , then when you put it on your just user interface: can we combine it or something ? uh with uh yellow and black ? project manager: yeah . yeah , maybe so . user interface: make it a bee ? a bee . marketing: what ? oh , a bee . oh . project manager: no , uh i do n't like the yellow and black combination . but it is our company colours . apparently . user interface: yeah , it 's our yeah . we we have to use yellow . industrial designer: yes , real real good colours . project manager: marketing: yeah . hmm . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: i do n't like yellow , and uh maybe i do n't know . marketing: well , we can as as i industrial designer: but that 's not really fruity . marketing: draw really nicely over there . we can put the logo on our uh on our base station . uh , yeah . and maybe very very tiny on the remote control itself . project manager: but marketing: but , i project manager: okay , but what uh , what are other tef technical things we have to discuss ? user interface: project manager: industrial designer: uh fronts of the we can have uh different uh uh fronts of the project manager: should we do that ? industrial designer: telephone . project manager: i do n't think you we should do that . maybe just bring it out in different colours , user interface: different fronts . project manager: but not af that you can switch fronts afterwards , that 's also too much . marketing: yeah . i guess that 's that 's enough . project manager: people do n't wan na spend more money on their remote control , i guess . marketing: that 's way too nokia . user interface: yeah . uh , you can you can l uh let choose the customer which colour he wants , yeah . industrial designer: are these designs ? project manager: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah , definitely . just bring more designs on the market . user interface: yeah , three three or four uh four uh colours , or something like that . project manager: but uh , without gon uh marketing: why not , yeah . project manager: okay . so , are we through the technical part then ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: okay . so we uh agreed upon uh n uh well , not u unanimously or how you call it , but yeah . user interface: well , yeah , industrial designer: it this a real uh young young and dynamic uh uh styles . user interface: the three to one . that 's project manager: the materials you uh mentioned in your your personal preferences were all were quite okay . industrial designer: yes . project manager: o o only only the last point your user interface: and tita uh titanium , is uh is is it a no ? industrial designer: yes , project manager: no titanium 's not not out of question , i guess . user interface: is it 's just like that , th this titanium . industrial designer: but also w yes , b bu but when we use s soft project manager: but is it possible to use both the the plastic and so uh soft things and t p titanium , as well ? industrial designer: mm marketing: sure . project manager: makes it in a homogeneous uh design . industrial designer: mm . user interface: no , not all , not all of them . industrial designer: but it it then it uh you ca n't throw it it . it will uh make a huge noise or break other stuff project manager: it will it will break other stuff w when it 's plastic , as well . industrial designer: when you throw with uh titanium with your remote control . user interface: industrial designer: no uh , marketing: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: titanium is a bit uh it 's a bit harder . marketing: yeah , that 's true . project manager: no , but uh uh , you should ma yeah . industrial designer: but also on the colours , the young project manager: okay , think of the possibilities and make it in completely titanium . well would it be more trendy ? more chic ? marketing: yeah , i think it i think it does . user interface: uh , i think titanium nowadays is way more often used than plastic . industrial designer: yes , but a titanium remote control , when you 're uh watching tv uh or your hands are a little bit sweaty , and the user interface: in trendy things . marketing: yeah , o on the other hand , if you want to make fruit fruity stuff with uh user interface: yeah . it 's cold in the winter . project manager: yeah , but i i really like the idea of the the the plastic and the big kind of thing . industrial designer: yes . project manager: but the question is i then it 's , you know , is is it fits in our s philosophy to make it uh sturdy and simple and uh , know , like uh user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , that 's true , that 's true . industrial designer: sports and gaming . define project manager: when you make it titanium , it becomes more like some kind of gadget you actually do n't need . and when it 's big and plastic , it 's like some fun stuff you can always have around . it 's always fun to have something big and plastic around . user interface: you have that uh m_p_ three player of nike , i saw . marketing: yes . yeah . user interface: is n't that titanium with a little bit of rubber ? industrial designer: yes , it 's w but it is uh plastic . user interface: is n't it is plastic ? well , it 's titanium looking . industrial designer: yes , w we can do that on the on the marketing: what ? user interface: yeah , he is . here he is . uh , the i do n't know if you know the m_p_ three player of nike . 'kay , uh that that 's very uh with rubber , so it 's very marketing: oh , yeah . okay , yeah . project manager: yeah , that 's beautiful . marketing: yeah , i see . industrial designer: we can make this as a style too . marketing: yeah , but but but user interface: rough . industrial designer: uh , this is uh just a project manager: oh , maybe th maybe this is an marketing: yeah , i th i think that 's difficult , because uh that 's different material , and then you got ta have like uh uh uh two material lines of of of industrial designer: no , we c we can make it from the same kind of plastic . marketing: yeah , if it 's just a colour uh which you uh which you change then , i guess it 's it 's nice to have one of these . project manager: no , i do like the idea of maybe a t titanium kind type of body w and then with s plastic colouration around it . industrial designer: uh marketing: uh project manager: you know , like the the soft stuff , marketing: yeah . project manager: but i do n't know if it 's possible . industrial designer: i do n't have the information . uh , i i did n't got it project manager: but you ca n't make the plastic give uh the ti titanium look . user interface: true . industrial designer: yes . project manager: but make it just like shiny . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah yeah , true . project manager: maybe we should uh shou industrial designer: like the m_p_ three player . user interface: yeah , maybe that 's good idea , yeah . but if you want to la uh yeah , last longer than two weeks or something like that , you can maybe marketing: yeah . project manager: and uh and marketing: project manager: maybe we sh should we t i do n't know if we should talk about uh , how how much time have we got left ? industrial designer: uh , in a lot of other uh user interface: i do n't know . project manager: forty minutes . user interface: what time does industrial designer: in a lot of other product uh categories like uh even in b in bags industry . uh , they began with uh t typical uh leather bags , but then they became stylish , with all all si all sort of colours , and w kind of fon of uh of fronts , like we can use on the telephone and it marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: like eastpack uh began a revolution with it with all this uh kind of bags and and colours and and project manager: you putting in different colours . industrial designer: yes , and and styles . project manager: okay . industrial designer: they have uh also uh a kind of uh um uh roses on it , a and uh marketing: uh yeah , yeah . project manager: okay . yeah , but w yeah . user interface: project manager: well , it is . it 's a possibility . but , let 's think about the bas industrial designer: then we can always uh use the same design for a greater resemblance , but with new uh with new colours , new marketing: yes . new prints on it . yep . project manager: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . industrial designer: yes . project manager: but wha th our basic idea y i mean , you gon na we 're probably gon na have like two type of materials , like the d d b the plastic uh enclosure and then the the pads that surround it . and and pro and lights . we have to incorporate the lights too . but , uh do w gon na gon na are we going to give it a two-tone colour look , like the the plastic mould is in in one colour and the s the cushion pads around it are in another colour ? is that the idea ? is that a good idea ? marketing: how do you mean ? th th the uh base in a in another project manager: how many colours are we how many colours are we gon na we 're uh uh f uh f user interface: the rubber . project manager: only five minutes left , by the way . how many colours are we gon na give it ? marketing: yes . project manager: like two-tone colour ? t industrial designer: there there are three uh components three components type . user interface: yeah . uh no , not too much i think . industrial designer: you have the buttons , the the case uh itself , and the rubber and th marketing: how the buttons yeah . project manager: i think maybe the case itself should be in one colour and then the rubber of the buttons , and the cushions as well should be in another colour . industrial designer: yes . user interface: or you just make uh one colour , uh maybe with a a z a kind of like a big wave or something like uh marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , but not more than user interface: in in another colour . project manager: well , yeah , it 's user interface: not more than two colours i think . project manager: no . user interface: it 's a g a little bit too flashy . marketing: no , definitely not . project manager: maybe we should talk about it on a l in a later meeting . industrial designer: yeah , or or when you use the buttons as black , it you can use two colours as well uh marketing: yes , definitely . project manager: okay . but we have to uh think of some other uh important things . industrial designer: project manager: uh oh yeah , the the functionalities of the the buttons . user interface: the funct yeah , i was i was thinking about th the st do we still want a joystick idea . project manager: no . marketing: no , i think that 's too vulnerable . project manager: i think this is okay , user interface: yeah . project manager: the so we have the basic . then we have the numbers . we have the power button . we have we have a teletext button . user interface: the volume , teletext and project manager: and maybe want to access a a menu or something . most tvs have a menu . marketing: yeah , but that 's that 's i was thinking that 's got ta be on the television . user interface: project manager: yeah , but i think you ha i really need a menu button . user interface: yeah yeah yeah yeah , b project manager: that 's just i the only button only user interface: yeah , but wha what kind of menu ? project manager: you know , i user interface: is uh is n't that different from every television ? project manager: no , i think most tvs have an uh a menu nowadays to access the uh uh screen settings . and so marketing: mm . yeah , if it 's c if yeah , i think it 's okay to to add a menu button for uh user interface: project manager: but that that covers all the all the other settings . it covers everything then . marketing: and if the tv does n't have a menu , then industrial designer: but then you have to put uh up and down and uh left and right marketing: yeah . project manager: no , you can use the marketing: yeah , you can put that on the two eight four and six or whatever . project manager: and you al can also use the normal skip buttons for that . industrial designer: okay . project manager: th in that way we have like only the numbers , the power button , skip and volume , and then uh uh ten uh rem marketing: mm , yeah . a mute and a teletext and a menu . project manager: uh yeah , mute . a teletext and a menu , and then then i that 's it . user interface: mute . project manager: it 's all we need . marketing: that 's all . user interface: yeah . marketing: hmm . project manager: okay , uh another stuf some stuff about the the the design of the docking station . marketing: great . yeah . user interface: okay , that 's not mu not much functions . so project manager: something important about a s uh , no , uh which sh uh should remind us of the remote itself , i guess . marketing: yeah , definitely . project manager: uh , in one colour . marketing: are we gon na do something with the uh spongy thing there ? project manager: just use i think the spongy thing already um comes forward in the in the in the cushions , pads and things on the s uh side . industrial designer: uh marketing: yeah , that 's true , that 's true . project manager: and we will make it spongy and and uh and uh well , the fruity thing is just the shape should be fru i did i think this is kind of fruity , you know . just round shapes with uh user interface: marketing: yeah , it 's kinda fruity , and with th with catchy colours uh uh w project manager: yeah , but we 're gon na have to we really have to think i think colours is very important , because it has to be flashy , but and but it d it does n't have to be annoying , that when you uh , know , some things is just over the top , and when you have it on your table for more than two weeks , you it just gets annoying , because it 's so big and flashy . marketing: yeah , definitely . project manager: uh , it has to be some level of subtlety , but we have to still have to think of how we manage to uh to get to that . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . guess we 're through then . marketing: okay . user interface: okay . marketing: i guess so . project manager: but we i think also we just so we have to do something with colour but also , i i think we have to keep the dark colour thing in mind . i think that 's uh adds to the user interface: yeah . marketing: yes . project manager: too much colour maybe m um user interface: too much colour , i it uh when you got it in a living room , it 's too much maybe project manager: but our des design experts will uh work that out . marketing: yea yeah . user interface: . it has to be project manager: okay , well i think the meeting will be over within a minute . user interface: yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: so we will wrap up . marketing: something like that . project manager: or is there anything we 'd like to discuss ? that 's right . marketing: i guess not . project manager: okay . marketing: do you , guys ? user interface: no . marketing: no ? project manager: okay . well , you will read the minutes uh in the you can find them in the user interface: oh , okay , yeah . marketing: in the shared folder . project manager: pro probably . yeah uh no , for su for sure because i 'm will now type them out . industrial designer: what are we going to do now ? project manager: uh , y yeah . marketing: you 'll see in you email , i guess . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think uh industrial designer: marketing: yeah , i do n't know . i do n't know . user interface: i hope so . and the other thing is that you do n't have kind of prototype or something like that . you see a kinda prototype you can a little bit more uh industrial designer: i will make one in the next uh twenty minutes . user interface: yeah . marketing: construct one , yeah . project manager: but toilet paper roll and uh user interface: with you laptop ? yeah . marketing: project manager: okay . user interface: oh my god . marketing: alright , shall we get back to work ? project manager: yep . i was waiting for the l last message , but marketing: great . user interface: well you are . we 're not . marketing: yeah . bastard . user interface: industrial designer: back to the pen . project manager: mm yeah . marketing: you lazy industrial designer: { vocalsound }

industrial designer made a presentation about the personal preference for components design . the remote should have a solid case in plastic and soft rubber and the rubber push-buttons . as for the energy source , the basic battery was better because it was more convenient for remote control users . as for the chip , the simple electronic chip should be available with an led transmitter . next , the group came to discuss the possibility of lcds that had been noted .

what did the project manager think about button sizes when talking about basic functions ? </s> project manager: okay , all set ? welcome to the conceptual design meeting . user interface: uh , okay . industrial designer: yes . project manager: the agenda . the opening . i 'll again be the secretary and make minutes , take minutes , uh and it will be three presentations , just like the last meeting . so um , who wants to start off ? technical uh designer again ? user interface: again . project manager: okay . user interface: hmm . project manager: uh , yeah . uh , before we begin it , i want to say i 've i 've put the minutes of the uh second meeting in the shared folder , but they 're still not uh quite okay . it uh it uh still some technical difficulties so the the first part of the minutes are very hard to read , because there are two documents that uh were layered over each other . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: project manager: so marketing: okay . project manager: but uh , from now on i wo n't use my pen anymore , so will be p just ordinary keyboard . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: user interface: uh , may be better , yeah . marketing: keyboard work . yeah . project manager: i think it will will be more uh easy for you to read the minutes . user interface: yeah . marketing: alright . industrial designer: okay , when we talk about uh components design , um it 's really about the material and the and uh uh really the stuff we build uh the remote controls of . um , a remote control consist of uh components and the components of a remote control consist of uh properties and material . we have to choose th uh these uh wisely and it could affect uh uh a kind of grow of in uh in buying uh the remote controls . um , the components of a remote control are of course uh the case . uh the properties of the case , um it has to be solid uh in hard material like uh hard plastic uh with soft rubber for uh falling and and uh uh yeah , it feels uh good in your hand . marketing: industrial designer: mm the buttons has to be uh solid too , and the material is soft rubber . uh i 've got a uh email from the possibilities of real reaction . um uh they 're telling me that um when we build uh a remote control of um of plastic or rubber , the uh buttons have to be uh rubber too . mm it 's okay . yeah . i when we use a rubbled a doubled curved case , we must use a rubber push-buttons to uh the the rubber double-curved case is a is a t uh three-dimensional uh curve in the in the design , which is uh necessary when we want to be trendy . uh um user interface: oh . industrial designer: the energy source , uh i 've got a lot of possibilities for that too . um , uh the basic battery , which i thi prefer because of its uh its non uh non-depending of of of uh um uh here you have to have a hand uh yeah , kinetic uh energy . also in uh this one , like in the watches , but a remote control can lie on a table for a day , and then you push uh a button and so you do n't have to uh walk with it all the all the time . mm , solar cells are also uh a bit weird for uh remote controls . marketing: project manager: industrial designer: um uh also the case material , uh i think that plastic is the is the best with rubber , because uh wood or titanium would also be a bit weird . user interface: oh titanium is probably trendy , i think . . marketing: that 's true , i guess . yeah . user interface: well , maybe a little bit expensive . marketing: user interface: i do n't know . industrial designer: uh , they do n't tell anything about the cost of uh titanium . marketing: huh . industrial designer: um the chip uh the chip set uh and the board is uh all off the shelf . also , the speaker in the remote control , when we want to retrieve it . um , the base station is also off the shelf , all the materials and the components are uh just available in uh in our uh factory . mm , i 've told about uh the three first points . mm , the simple electronical chip uh is is available uh with the led transmitter uh transmitter . uh , it 's all uh off the shelf and even the speaker and the wireless retriever are all uh available in our company . um , another possibility . i uh yeah , i looked up on was uh the lcd displays . could be uh something special to our uh remote control , and it 's possible , but it only cost a bit more , but maybe it can be uh within the limits of twenty five euros . project manager: twelve and a half . actually industrial designer: ah yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , production cost . industrial designer: i th i got an email with uh some examples and it these were were the most trendiest one . user interface: industrial designer: you see uh a covers , which can be project manager: what are those , t tooth uh brushes , or so user interface: industrial designer: um , i do n't know . um marketing: project manager: but it 's actually kind of uh user interface: i project manager: well , it resembles the design i had in mind for this proj industrial designer: yes . project manager: you know the the cartoonish alessi kind of design . marketing: yep . industrial designer: yes , maybe we can uh bri uh bring a couple of uh couple of types of uh project manager: and we can we can steal their ideas . marketing: industrial designer: maybe a kind of uh whole uh um a whole set of uh different uh remote controls . project manager: huh . industrial designer: maybe we can bring a whole line uh with uh with a huge variety of uh project manager: well , it 's a possibility , too . industrial designer: uh house uh stuff . user interface: different colours also . industrial designer: like uh maybe radios and uh television also uh in this in this in the same style , but project manager: uh-uh . marketing: yeah , that 'll be for the future , i guess . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: next time we 're here . industrial designer: yes , because we have to uh we have to we have to bring the logo and all the stuff uh back into it . marketing: yeah . project manager: oh , okay . marketing: yeah . definitely . project manager: okay . user interface: okay . industrial designer: thank you . marketing: alright . user interface: uh marketing: yeah . that 's okay . user interface: ah . marketing: user interface: well , i shall go to the next slide . um marketing: user interface: um , i still do n't have any information about user requirements . marketing: user interface: i was thinking about just uh the basic functions and i got uh project manager: oh , we decided upon that in the last meeting . did n't we ? user interface: yeah , but but then wh i do n't know when there are new user requirements . project manager: oh , okay . well , tha i did n't receive any new requirements or somethi user interface: i ha i ha i have the i have project manager: just user interface: nothing . project manager: no , but we decided to use only b basic functions only . user interface: well , i have here a couple of basic functions i could think of . project manager: okay . user interface: i dunno if they 're maybe a little bit more , but project manager: well we maybe we can think of that later . w just user interface: yeah . project manager: these are the ones you already summed up in the user interface: yeah , i i uh well , i pointed them out here , just to make it a little bit easier . project manager: okay . user interface: um another function uh is of course we already discuss it on the side . um , i do n't know what costs of it . uh , i 've no idea about it . uh , i was also looking for what you said , for i got an email uh uh about uh lcd in in in front of the remote control . i do n't know if that 's a good idea , or maybe it 's a little bit too much for twelve and a half . production . project manager: yeah . user interface: if we got already uh something like a base . industrial designer: uh-huh . project manager: that might get redundant also maybe . i do n't know what kind of information it would user interface: yeah , i do n't know . i d i uh ju i was just thinking about it . then i got a pop-ups to go to the meeting . but marketing: mm yeah . project manager: yeah . yeah , it 's okay . industrial designer: maybe we can bring t uh uh teletext to the t to the remote control . user interface: the remote control . marketing: then you project manager: user interface: a little uh too a little bit marketing: and then you 've got a flag s very big r_c_ . yeah . project manager: okay . that 's not it was not a good idea . user interface: a little bit too big , i think . exactly . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: okay . user interface: um , yeah . well , the functions are are not more to discuss , i think . project manager: no . no . user interface: it 's it 's just the base things we already discussed that the no v_c_r_ or that kind of marketing: no . user interface: uh , so that 's very easy . um project manager: but you do mention the next and previous uh button . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: user interface: well , that 's next channel . i mean next channel . marketing: next channel , previous channel . project manager: oh , okay , o okay okay . user interface: uh um oh , i i got an email with with an uh a remote control with a base . project manager: huh . user interface: so , it 's uh just an idea . and i um uh thinked of the button sizes and i 'm not sure uh if they have to be big or uh just small industrial designer: but you 're the expert . marketing: i think it depends on the function . user interface: well , i 'm not a e i 'm the expert for user-friendly , but not for trendiness . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: maybe it marketing: well , if you save uh perhaps uh s tiny buttons are n't user-friendly , then we would n't im implement that of course . project manager: user interface: well uh industrial designer: marketing: user interface: okay , that 's your point . um , yeah . yeah , okay . marketing: user interface: yeah , i 've nothing to s industrial designer: project manager: well , w when we only use basic functions , we have the possibility to make the buttons larger . marketing: oh , that 's right . user interface: uh , with a little bit larger , yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: i thought so , but maybe with the project manager: well , i think we already agreed upon the fact that the the the skip buttons and the cha and the volume buttons , th th those two have yeah , they have to be large . user interface: yeah , that groups . project manager: uh , i mean th th the the two two basic buttons , you know , the to skip channels and to uh user interface: large ? yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: i think yeah , i do n't know why , but i think that is that 's t trendy too , user interface: most the most used uh buttons . marketing: those are probably the the th project manager: because that 's the mo it it you know , it 's uh acc acc um accentu uh , how do you say it ? it puts an extra accent on the the on the simplicity of our remotes to j to make these two most basic functions extra big , like t marketing: yes . user interface: true . yeah . marketing: those are probably the b four most most used buttons on the th in the remote control . project manager: yeah . and you want to acc accentuate that , you know . industrial designer: you did the research . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: it 's from your research . marketing: sorry ? yeah , sure . project manager: so user interface: okay . uh , that was all y industrial designer: user interface: uh personal preference i did n't have . project manager: okay . user interface: i did n't had any time left . project manager: no uh , that 's coo it 's cool . industrial designer: marketing: you do n't care . no , sorry . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: yeah . user interface: marketing: oh . go away . user interface: it 's there . marketing: come on . user interface: yeah , click on it . marketing: . user interface: couple time . marketing: oh , great . well , i 've done some research again about trends on the internet . um i 've done some investigation , and uh well i uh got some information from fashion watchers from paris and uh milan . some uh some findings the most important thing is fancy look and feel of the remote control . uh , well , we were going to imply that , so that 's nice . the second important thing is uh innovative technology in the r_c_ . uh , our market really likes really likes that . and uh the third point there in this uh order if of importance , the third point , is a high ease of use . and uh , well , for the idea , i 've put some trends uh for the market of elderly people . industrial designer: marketing: dark colours , simple recognisable shapes . so we probably wo n't do that . user interface: marketing: the younger market likes uh well , the themes of of this year are uh surprisingly fruits and vegetables and spongy material . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: i found this image , which is uh well , it symbolises the idea of fruits and vegetables . i do n't see the spongy part in it . but with a little bit of fancy project manager: well maybe c then we have to do something with sponge bob then . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: exactly . i got some ideas user interface: marketing: uh well , yeah , pictures is n't really good word , but um industrial designer: marketing: some symbols of fruits or vegetables maybe . uh , catchy colours . industrial designer: marketing: fruit is uh yellow , green , red , whatever . user interface: marketing: so , remote controls in in catchy colours . project manager: it does n't stroke with the with the dark colours . marketing: uh , no , we do n't want dark colours . project manager: not the dark colours ? okay . marketing: no , i just put them there to uh , yeah , uh for general idea . project manager: okay . marketing: and uh , the docking st industrial designer: marketing: uh i think the spongy material is is very irritating for the uh remote control itself . but to industrial designer: marketing: yeah , the to implement some spongy thing , maybe we can do it in the in the docking station . at the bottom of the docking station or whatever . and uh , we could bring one line with a dark colour uh to um uh p uh yeah industrial designer: marketing: uh uh v how do you say ? project manager: for diversity or something . uh marketing: yeah , also a bit for elderly people who are a little bit crazy and want maybe want a little younger design but still the dark colour . user interface: well , how uh industrial designer: marketing: i mean it it it reaches a different market uh , but it it it does n't cost really much effort to b to uh bring uh like a black r_c_ on the market or whatever . yes . user interface: but how do we use uh fruits and vegetables in christ 's sake with remote control ? industrial designer: project manager: no , but i i i think that uh our design already resembles so a piece of fruit . marketing: yeah , there 's there 's always a user interface: uh , make it a banana ? project manager: it 's like a pear or something . user interface: marketing: well there there 's always empty space of course on a remote control . i mean i think this part of the r_c_ uh well the upper the upper part or whatever is uh is not not used with buttons , i guess . project manager: no , i do n't think you have to do it like industrial designer: user interface: marketing: so you you can put some fruity things project manager: yeah , but it that does n't have to remind you , you know , like explicitly of s our f of a of a specific piece of fruit , but just , you know , like the the the the round curves . industrial designer: marketing: no , of course not . project manager: and so y i i think this y it already sem resembles uh something like a pear to me or something . marketing: especially i user interface: yeah , but th yeah , but that marketing: yeah , yeah . yeah , exactly . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , but that 's marketing: if we make it little bit greenish . project manager: you do get the idea , eh ? the fruity kind of round user interface: yeah uh uh project manager: 'kay . marketing: a and we could use one of these for the uh w what is it ? project manager: yeah , uh yeah , i do n't know . industrial designer: grapes . marketing: uh industrial designer: project manager: uh , this is a b yeah . marketing: is n't wha whatever . user interface: but d do n't we need a creative artist or something like that to m make it to feel like a a a a vegetable or fruit ? industrial designer: project manager: yeah , yeah . of course we have uh marketing: yeah , sure . project manager: we have a very big uh the s marketing: yeah . well , w we can uh w we can we can produce multiple uh multiple things . industrial designer: for a big team of artists . project manager: of d design team , yeah . user interface: marketing: this is then the uh pear . i do n't know the english word , so forget it . project manager: yeah , but it 's pear , i guess . marketing: and um , maybe , yeah , a b a banana is uh is n not easy for a remote control , but m yeah . industrial designer: but uh but i think we do n't have to make project manager: no . industrial designer: we ca n't make all uh ten designs . we have to make one design i th i i think . project manager: no , but i think it 's it 's already what we were were up to . marketing: mayb maybe two or three . user interface: yeah . project manager: uh , it 's it does n't have to resemble uh what i already said , a specific piece of fruit , but just , you know , like a fruity thing going on . user interface: marketing: yeah . no sure , but but project manager: and it 's it looks fruity to me . user interface: marketing: b but that 's great , and and and what i was project manager: and uh , but i do like the marketing: what what i was saying , the catchy colours project manager: yeah , i do like uh the f uh to the idea of making a a y uh , a catchy colour design and a d because i do i think a dark colour would be nice too . industrial designer: but pictures of fruit , vegetables vegetables marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe it 's too much , you know . user interface: but , we we have to um there have to be the the the the firm colours , our own uh colours has to be in it . marketing: yeah , uh not really . pictures was a was a bad word , but project manager: okay , but what are the this is yellow . marketing: well we c yeah . user interface: yellow , a real reaction . industrial designer: yes , you can put a logo on top of it . project manager: but i do n't think our our company colours are this fashionable . marketing: yeah , sure . user interface: uh , yeah . marketing: maybe we can if if we got our docking station over here . user interface: we uh f industrial designer: yes , it 's really fruity . marketing: i ca n't draw with this thing , but i 'll try . user interface: a yellow do marketing: if this is our docking station , we can make our logo over here . user interface: uh , yeah . marketing: it does n't work . and then user interface: yeah , and the button then . industrial designer: with a strawberry on top . project manager: yeah , on uh n uh on the bottom of the remote you can do marketing: well , the button button over here or whatever , user interface: okay , yeah . marketing: i do n't know . on the front , of course , because else you ca n't find it . user interface: okay . marketing: well , that were my ideas a little bit . project manager: okay . marketing: i 'll close 'em down . um , go away . project manager: okay , you can you open the conceptual design presentation ? marketing: conceptual design , yes . project manager: see what was on the agenda . user interface: lazy . marketing: the agenda . project manager: this is his own remote . because um , maybe we can start with the technical uh functions , user interface: yeah . project manager: but i do n't think it 's there uh , yeah um , do we want to um use an lcd display , for example ? marketing: well , it 's nice , of course . but i do n't i do n't know what to display on it . industrial designer: only if we project manager: me neither . industrial designer: maybe maybe we can make a tv guide on it , for the channel you 're on . marketing: i mean project manager: yeah , but it 's so marketing: yeah , but it should be li like this big , and i do n't think industrial designer: no , no , only the tv channel with the with uh with uh four programmes . project manager: i do n't think we should do it . industrial designer: you can uh zap through them with the page up page down button . marketing: yes sure , but it it has to to show an entire title of a programme or at least a q a quite quite large part of it and then you get a very large lcd screen , because industrial designer: yes , it can on your no , on your mobile phone you can y you can read text also . so why not on your remote ? project manager: yeah , but no . i do i think it 's a bit redundant , actually . marketing: yeah , i do n't know . project manager: and it 's also not i do n't th even think it it looks s like sexy or something , user interface: well well what would you display on it then ? project manager: it 's industrial designer: uh , programme uh information or or or or g or a guide marketing: programme information . user interface: but is it is n't that a already on tv , a lot of new tvs ? marketing: but industrial designer: on t on teletext , yes . also on the internet . marketing: well a lot a lot of tvs indeed show uh when you uh zap to a industrial designer: but project manager: but you 're already watching the tv , you 're not gon na watch your remote control . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes , but you also want to know what 's next . marketing: but then we also uh w need to bring out a line of tvs which we were planning to , user interface: yeah , project manager: user interface: and we also have to yeah . marketing: but whatever . because the tv has to send information back to the r_c_ , and i do n't know if that 's possible . industrial designer: yes , that 's uh really possible . project manager: marketing: yes , yes , o of course it 's possible , user interface: marketing: but you got ta uh implement it in the tvs , and i do n't think everyone 's gon na buy a real reaction tv within a month after the release of our uh remote control . industrial designer: project manager: i really understand you want to make your job more exciting by putting an lcd in it , user interface: and i also industrial designer: user interface: marketing: project manager: but i i really do n't think it 's a good n goo because it also does n't stroke with we wanted uh c when we talk about the materials , uh it 's a good idea to use these plastic materials with soft rubber stuff on it . it was our idea , you know , to give it a more sturdy look and that you ca like you can throw with it . marketing: yeah . project manager: but i do n't think a lcd display fits in that image . you know , it 's like more vulnerable , and it adds nothing really , you know . marketing: that 's true , that 's true , it breaks f yeah , it it it 's not very solid , it 's uh frag fragile . project manager: yeah , yeah . you could make it , but it 's just it it does n't i do n't think it it 's coherent with the design we 're after . marketing: no . no . i do n't think so ei either . project manager: but that 's my opinion . well , you you y okay , we can vote for it . you want the lcd display . i do n't want to and he does n't , so it 's up to him . industrial designer: no . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: if we wan na user interface: yeah , i dunno . marketing: . ah . industrial designer: project manager: and i 've read somewhere that i 've got some kind of veto veto uh rights . user interface: . oh , okay . industrial designer: marketing: bastard . project manager: so i can also say user interface: we can you away . project manager: but did we skip the yeah , you could do marketing: project manager: m but what what i so what i but do you think we should user interface: yeah , i do n't know . uh , uh i i if it 's it 's a simple p project manager: we 're not even sure what what information we want to display on it . so user interface: no , that that 's right , industrial designer: no uh um user interface: and uh i also have to think about new functions , maybe buttons or something like that to control it . kind of lcd or something or industrial designer: y yes , you can use uh buttons uh uh w that are already uh on the remote control for double functions . marketing: yeah , i guess . user interface: but how does it display then ? w when i go to the second channel , what what does it show me ? industrial designer: uh , then you push a button . the title and the information about the programme . user interface: about that programme ? industrial designer: but but uh yeah , what he said was right , about the televisions , they have to be uh customised to the project manager: nah , that 's not gon na work . industrial designer: but maybe in future it will be a giant hit , and when you are the first marketing: no . project manager: yeah . oh , well uh i 've seen it done before . industrial designer: you have the biggest uh project manager: do you know th like the the bigger rem uh universal remotes , they have d lcd displays , user interface: yeah . project manager: but then it 's very functional to indicate which what uh uh device you are controlling . so it 's that that 's what i 've seen . industrial designer: yes , you can put uh a little lcd display on it with uh with lots of information . marketing: yeah , that 's true , if you uh yeah . project manager: but it just it j it does n't does n't match with the our whole basic concept . industrial designer: but uh i have n't thought about it . but whe but when you put a a a transparent uh plastic uh uh screen on top of it , it i it is n't vulnerable . project manager: well yeah , yeah , okay . that 's maybe not the most important , industrial designer: you can throw with it and project manager: but it 's just user interface: is it fashion ? project manager: i do n't think so . industrial designer: when when you put uh maybe a colour lcd t uh screen on it , it 's very special and very trendy to have uh a remote control from user interface: i do n't know . that 's not up to you . that 's up to market if i if it 's trendy . project manager: yeah , well do you ha do you have to you have n't looked after the trendiness of lcd displays , have you ? marketing: no . industrial designer: user interface: because our our motto is we put fashion marketing: well , i think it 's uh i think it 's pretty trendy , to be honest , uh but um i do n't know if if if well , i 'm coming back to the costs again , but i think uh we got ta build a b pretty cheap design to to stay within our limits . and i think uh especially colour lcd , which is indeed pretty trendy . but i do n't think uh , i think it will be too expensive . industrial designer: but uh i 've got a the email with uh with the possibilities . and lcd was a possibility for the remote control . project manager: user interface: project manager: yeah yeah yeah . industrial designer: so why do n't we use it . project manager: yeah , but we 're gon na if it marketing: uh , did it say a price also uh for for uh monogramme uh lcd or uh coloured lcd ? user interface: yeah , if you want to be trendy you have to be coloured . coloured marketing: yeah really , user interface: if you have black and white or something , or grey , that 's marketing: if y if you c i project manager: then uh then you better do n't yeah , d marketing: i in in two thousand and four you ca n't uh put something on the market which is a monogramme . project manager: user interface: marketing: really . industrial designer: no , but it does n't sa say anything about a colour or but , mm , i alf i also got a possibility to put uh a scroll button on it . but project manager: uh uh i really do n't feel the whole idea of an lcd display . industrial designer: i did n't think that marketing: project manager: i 'm sorry . it ca n't co you can not convince me . i do n't know how well how to with you guys , but i do n't really feel it . we already we 're uh user interface: it 's too much uh maybe uh with with the lcd and the docking station and project manager: yeah , we already have the the th th th base station gadgets , marketing: yeah . project manager: and want and it uh uh , do it has to be a simple design , which sturdy , which soft industrial designer: yes , but o on the marketing: w we 've we 've got ta find a balance , of course . user interface: with one thing special . marketing: and i think user interface: not a whole package of specialty . project manager: i do n't think i j uh , and really , i do n't see how the the lcd display is gon na add anything , you know , on a design level . uh , i think it 's slicker to have no l_ ceds . industrial designer: no , when y project manager: y we want to it 's simplicity , w you have two big buttons and you can do whatever you want with these two buttons , so you do n't need an lcd . industrial designer: but it look yes , but that remote controls are already on the market . the simple project manager: it does n't fit in our philosophy uh behind the whole remote . industrial designer: yes , but but when you want to have something special project manager: yeah , but we already have the docking station , which is industrial designer: yes , but you had a picture of it from another company . user interface: and uh the marketing: we have a pear . project manager: it has to be developed , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: but no , but it that 's industrial designer: project manager: that 's our that 's our killer feature . user interface: it 's just an it 's just an idea . marketing: project manager: that 's our what makes it special . user interface: it 's a it 's industrial designer: yes , it was already made . tha the remote control on the docking station . project manager: yeah , we 're gon na develop our own r n docking station . user interface: true . marketing: is that so ? was it it was n't just a prototype ? user interface: well uh i uh industrial designer: yes , he have a picture of it . project manager: user interface: yeah , i dunno . industrial designer: marketing: exactly , i 've never seen it in a store . project manager: uh , but re we really have to cut this off , user interface: project manager: i re i know you i i i i i get the idea you really like it , you know , the the lcd thing , but i i think it 's it 's not a good idea , and we have already mentioned all the arguments . i do n't uh , do you guys agre how do you guys think ? i d user interface: no , it 's too much . marketing: i think it 's a little too much , yeah . user interface: it 's overdone . project manager: okay , we s skip the lcd display . user interface: industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: i 'm sorry , maybe you can do something if we are at your own place , or make it make it make it happen in your basement or something . user interface: democratically . industrial designer: marketing: no . user interface: industrial designer: mayb marketing: . project manager: but industrial designer: i will rule the world with it . project manager: probably so . marketing: yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . project manager: okay . but for the technical part . the m material , i think uh it was a good idea to use the plastic and uh the rubber . uh industrial designer: yes , maybe a bit of a cushion is project manager: yeah yeah yeah , p exactly . this is what it w yeah , but it it was already what we 're uh we 're after , you know , to give it uh , you know , the soft touch in your hands marketing: yeah , for the spongy uh feel . yeah . industrial designer: yes . user interface: with a spongy bob feel . project manager: and also to , know , like user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , that is y the b airbag kind of thing . industrial designer: like a b yes . project manager: you can st throw it at your little brother 's head . user interface: yeah , you just can drop it . yeah . marketing: yeah , airbag . if you drop it if you drop it the airbag comes out , yeah . project manager: yeah . no no no , not that comfy . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: maybe it marketing: industrial designer: but then we have to look that it uh w uh will not um be too childish to see . project manager: yeah yeah . yeah . okay , that 's a that 's a good point . and that 's why i like the dark t col dark colour bit , you know , because it may be the design uh , it 's uh maybe it is a bit of the marketing: yeah . user interface: but not black i think . project manager: it 's a bit nineties maybe , what we 're what we 're up to rat fun to this point . marketing: no . user interface: well if if it 's fruit and vegetables , it have to be colourful . project manager: yeah , that 's that 's true , but but it has to be a little big solid . marketing: yeah , b yeah , that 's what w i i was pointing at . user interface: but can we ge uh uh project manager: it must n't be too , n you know , th too overwhelming , then when you put it on your just user interface: can we combine it or something ? uh with uh yellow and black ? project manager: yeah . yeah , maybe so . user interface: make it a bee ? a bee . marketing: what ? oh , a bee . oh . project manager: no , uh i do n't like the yellow and black combination . but it is our company colours . apparently . user interface: yeah , it 's our yeah . we we have to use yellow . industrial designer: yes , real real good colours . project manager: marketing: yeah . hmm . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: i do n't like yellow , and uh maybe i do n't know . marketing: well , we can as as i industrial designer: but that 's not really fruity . marketing: draw really nicely over there . we can put the logo on our uh on our base station . uh , yeah . and maybe very very tiny on the remote control itself . project manager: but marketing: but , i project manager: okay , but what uh , what are other tef technical things we have to discuss ? user interface: project manager: industrial designer: uh fronts of the we can have uh different uh uh fronts of the project manager: should we do that ? industrial designer: telephone . project manager: i do n't think you we should do that . maybe just bring it out in different colours , user interface: different fronts . project manager: but not af that you can switch fronts afterwards , that 's also too much . marketing: yeah . i guess that 's that 's enough . project manager: people do n't wan na spend more money on their remote control , i guess . marketing: that 's way too nokia . user interface: yeah . uh , you can you can l uh let choose the customer which colour he wants , yeah . industrial designer: are these designs ? project manager: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah , definitely . just bring more designs on the market . user interface: yeah , three three or four uh four uh colours , or something like that . project manager: but uh , without gon uh marketing: why not , yeah . project manager: okay . so , are we through the technical part then ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: okay . so we uh agreed upon uh n uh well , not u unanimously or how you call it , but yeah . user interface: well , yeah , industrial designer: it this a real uh young young and dynamic uh uh styles . user interface: the three to one . that 's project manager: the materials you uh mentioned in your your personal preferences were all were quite okay . industrial designer: yes . project manager: o o only only the last point your user interface: and tita uh titanium , is uh is is it a no ? industrial designer: yes , project manager: no titanium 's not not out of question , i guess . user interface: is it 's just like that , th this titanium . industrial designer: but also w yes , b bu but when we use s soft project manager: but is it possible to use both the the plastic and so uh soft things and t p titanium , as well ? industrial designer: mm marketing: sure . project manager: makes it in a homogeneous uh design . industrial designer: mm . user interface: no , not all , not all of them . industrial designer: but it it then it uh you ca n't throw it it . it will uh make a huge noise or break other stuff project manager: it will it will break other stuff w when it 's plastic , as well . industrial designer: when you throw with uh titanium with your remote control . user interface: industrial designer: no uh , marketing: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: titanium is a bit uh it 's a bit harder . marketing: yeah , that 's true . project manager: no , but uh uh , you should ma yeah . industrial designer: but also on the colours , the young project manager: okay , think of the possibilities and make it in completely titanium . well would it be more trendy ? more chic ? marketing: yeah , i think it i think it does . user interface: uh , i think titanium nowadays is way more often used than plastic . industrial designer: yes , but a titanium remote control , when you 're uh watching tv uh or your hands are a little bit sweaty , and the user interface: in trendy things . marketing: yeah , o on the other hand , if you want to make fruit fruity stuff with uh user interface: yeah . it 's cold in the winter . project manager: yeah , but i i really like the idea of the the the plastic and the big kind of thing . industrial designer: yes . project manager: but the question is i then it 's , you know , is is it fits in our s philosophy to make it uh sturdy and simple and uh , know , like uh user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , that 's true , that 's true . industrial designer: sports and gaming . define project manager: when you make it titanium , it becomes more like some kind of gadget you actually do n't need . and when it 's big and plastic , it 's like some fun stuff you can always have around . it 's always fun to have something big and plastic around . user interface: you have that uh m_p_ three player of nike , i saw . marketing: yes . yeah . user interface: is n't that titanium with a little bit of rubber ? industrial designer: yes , it 's w but it is uh plastic . user interface: is n't it is plastic ? well , it 's titanium looking . industrial designer: yes , w we can do that on the on the marketing: what ? user interface: yeah , he is . here he is . uh , the i do n't know if you know the m_p_ three player of nike . 'kay , uh that that 's very uh with rubber , so it 's very marketing: oh , yeah . okay , yeah . project manager: yeah , that 's beautiful . marketing: yeah , i see . industrial designer: we can make this as a style too . marketing: yeah , but but but user interface: rough . industrial designer: uh , this is uh just a project manager: oh , maybe th maybe this is an marketing: yeah , i th i think that 's difficult , because uh that 's different material , and then you got ta have like uh uh uh two material lines of of of industrial designer: no , we c we can make it from the same kind of plastic . marketing: yeah , if it 's just a colour uh which you uh which you change then , i guess it 's it 's nice to have one of these . project manager: no , i do like the idea of maybe a t titanium kind type of body w and then with s plastic colouration around it . industrial designer: uh marketing: uh project manager: you know , like the the soft stuff , marketing: yeah . project manager: but i do n't know if it 's possible . industrial designer: i do n't have the information . uh , i i did n't got it project manager: but you ca n't make the plastic give uh the ti titanium look . user interface: true . industrial designer: yes . project manager: but make it just like shiny . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah yeah , true . project manager: maybe we should uh shou industrial designer: like the m_p_ three player . user interface: yeah , maybe that 's good idea , yeah . but if you want to la uh yeah , last longer than two weeks or something like that , you can maybe marketing: yeah . project manager: and uh and marketing: project manager: maybe we sh should we t i do n't know if we should talk about uh , how how much time have we got left ? industrial designer: uh , in a lot of other uh user interface: i do n't know . project manager: forty minutes . user interface: what time does industrial designer: in a lot of other product uh categories like uh even in b in bags industry . uh , they began with uh t typical uh leather bags , but then they became stylish , with all all si all sort of colours , and w kind of fon of uh of fronts , like we can use on the telephone and it marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: like eastpack uh began a revolution with it with all this uh kind of bags and and colours and and project manager: you putting in different colours . industrial designer: yes , and and styles . project manager: okay . industrial designer: they have uh also uh a kind of uh um uh roses on it , a and uh marketing: uh yeah , yeah . project manager: okay . yeah , but w yeah . user interface: project manager: well , it is . it 's a possibility . but , let 's think about the bas industrial designer: then we can always uh use the same design for a greater resemblance , but with new uh with new colours , new marketing: yes . new prints on it . yep . project manager: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . industrial designer: yes . project manager: but wha th our basic idea y i mean , you gon na we 're probably gon na have like two type of materials , like the d d b the plastic uh enclosure and then the the pads that surround it . and and pro and lights . we have to incorporate the lights too . but , uh do w gon na gon na are we going to give it a two-tone colour look , like the the plastic mould is in in one colour and the s the cushion pads around it are in another colour ? is that the idea ? is that a good idea ? marketing: how do you mean ? th th the uh base in a in another project manager: how many colours are we how many colours are we gon na we 're uh uh f uh f user interface: the rubber . project manager: only five minutes left , by the way . how many colours are we gon na give it ? marketing: yes . project manager: like two-tone colour ? t industrial designer: there there are three uh components three components type . user interface: yeah . uh no , not too much i think . industrial designer: you have the buttons , the the case uh itself , and the rubber and th marketing: how the buttons yeah . project manager: i think maybe the case itself should be in one colour and then the rubber of the buttons , and the cushions as well should be in another colour . industrial designer: yes . user interface: or you just make uh one colour , uh maybe with a a z a kind of like a big wave or something like uh marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , but not more than user interface: in in another colour . project manager: well , yeah , it 's user interface: not more than two colours i think . project manager: no . user interface: it 's a g a little bit too flashy . marketing: no , definitely not . project manager: maybe we should talk about it on a l in a later meeting . industrial designer: yeah , or or when you use the buttons as black , it you can use two colours as well uh marketing: yes , definitely . project manager: okay . but we have to uh think of some other uh important things . industrial designer: project manager: uh oh yeah , the the functionalities of the the buttons . user interface: the funct yeah , i was i was thinking about th the st do we still want a joystick idea . project manager: no . marketing: no , i think that 's too vulnerable . project manager: i think this is okay , user interface: yeah . project manager: the so we have the basic . then we have the numbers . we have the power button . we have we have a teletext button . user interface: the volume , teletext and project manager: and maybe want to access a a menu or something . most tvs have a menu . marketing: yeah , but that 's that 's i was thinking that 's got ta be on the television . user interface: project manager: yeah , but i think you ha i really need a menu button . user interface: yeah yeah yeah yeah , b project manager: that 's just i the only button only user interface: yeah , but wha what kind of menu ? project manager: you know , i user interface: is uh is n't that different from every television ? project manager: no , i think most tvs have an uh a menu nowadays to access the uh uh screen settings . and so marketing: mm . yeah , if it 's c if yeah , i think it 's okay to to add a menu button for uh user interface: project manager: but that that covers all the all the other settings . it covers everything then . marketing: and if the tv does n't have a menu , then industrial designer: but then you have to put uh up and down and uh left and right marketing: yeah . project manager: no , you can use the marketing: yeah , you can put that on the two eight four and six or whatever . project manager: and you al can also use the normal skip buttons for that . industrial designer: okay . project manager: th in that way we have like only the numbers , the power button , skip and volume , and then uh uh ten uh rem marketing: mm , yeah . a mute and a teletext and a menu . project manager: uh yeah , mute . a teletext and a menu , and then then i that 's it . user interface: mute . project manager: it 's all we need . marketing: that 's all . user interface: yeah . marketing: hmm . project manager: okay , uh another stuf some stuff about the the the design of the docking station . marketing: great . yeah . user interface: okay , that 's not mu not much functions . so project manager: something important about a s uh , no , uh which sh uh should remind us of the remote itself , i guess . marketing: yeah , definitely . project manager: uh , in one colour . marketing: are we gon na do something with the uh spongy thing there ? project manager: just use i think the spongy thing already um comes forward in the in the in the cushions , pads and things on the s uh side . industrial designer: uh marketing: yeah , that 's true , that 's true . project manager: and we will make it spongy and and uh and uh well , the fruity thing is just the shape should be fru i did i think this is kind of fruity , you know . just round shapes with uh user interface: marketing: yeah , it 's kinda fruity , and with th with catchy colours uh uh w project manager: yeah , but we 're gon na have to we really have to think i think colours is very important , because it has to be flashy , but and but it d it does n't have to be annoying , that when you uh , know , some things is just over the top , and when you have it on your table for more than two weeks , you it just gets annoying , because it 's so big and flashy . marketing: yeah , definitely . project manager: uh , it has to be some level of subtlety , but we have to still have to think of how we manage to uh to get to that . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . guess we 're through then . marketing: okay . user interface: okay . marketing: i guess so . project manager: but we i think also we just so we have to do something with colour but also , i i think we have to keep the dark colour thing in mind . i think that 's uh adds to the user interface: yeah . marketing: yes . project manager: too much colour maybe m um user interface: too much colour , i it uh when you got it in a living room , it 's too much maybe project manager: but our des design experts will uh work that out . marketing: yea yeah . user interface: . it has to be project manager: okay , well i think the meeting will be over within a minute . user interface: yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: so we will wrap up . marketing: something like that . project manager: or is there anything we 'd like to discuss ? that 's right . marketing: i guess not . project manager: okay . marketing: do you , guys ? user interface: no . marketing: no ? project manager: okay . well , you will read the minutes uh in the you can find them in the user interface: oh , okay , yeah . marketing: in the shared folder . project manager: pro probably . yeah uh no , for su for sure because i 'm will now type them out . industrial designer: what are we going to do now ? project manager: uh , y yeah . marketing: you 'll see in you email , i guess . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think uh industrial designer: marketing: yeah , i do n't know . i do n't know . user interface: i hope so . and the other thing is that you do n't have kind of prototype or something like that . you see a kinda prototype you can a little bit more uh industrial designer: i will make one in the next uh twenty minutes . user interface: yeah . marketing: construct one , yeah . project manager: but toilet paper roll and uh user interface: with you laptop ? yeah . marketing: project manager: okay . user interface: oh my god . marketing: alright , shall we get back to work ? project manager: yep . i was waiting for the l last message , but marketing: great . user interface: well you are . we 're not . marketing: yeah . bastard . user interface: industrial designer: back to the pen . project manager: mm yeah . marketing: you lazy industrial designer: { vocalsound }

project manager thought the skip buttons and the volume buttons , the two most basic functions , should be designed larger . in this way , the simplicity of the remote could also be accentuated .

summarize the presentation on trend-watching . </s> project manager: okay , all set ? welcome to the conceptual design meeting . user interface: uh , okay . industrial designer: yes . project manager: the agenda . the opening . i 'll again be the secretary and make minutes , take minutes , uh and it will be three presentations , just like the last meeting . so um , who wants to start off ? technical uh designer again ? user interface: again . project manager: okay . user interface: hmm . project manager: uh , yeah . uh , before we begin it , i want to say i 've i 've put the minutes of the uh second meeting in the shared folder , but they 're still not uh quite okay . it uh it uh still some technical difficulties so the the first part of the minutes are very hard to read , because there are two documents that uh were layered over each other . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: project manager: so marketing: okay . project manager: but uh , from now on i wo n't use my pen anymore , so will be p just ordinary keyboard . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: user interface: uh , may be better , yeah . marketing: keyboard work . yeah . project manager: i think it will will be more uh easy for you to read the minutes . user interface: yeah . marketing: alright . industrial designer: okay , when we talk about uh components design , um it 's really about the material and the and uh uh really the stuff we build uh the remote controls of . um , a remote control consist of uh components and the components of a remote control consist of uh properties and material . we have to choose th uh these uh wisely and it could affect uh uh a kind of grow of in uh in buying uh the remote controls . um , the components of a remote control are of course uh the case . uh the properties of the case , um it has to be solid uh in hard material like uh hard plastic uh with soft rubber for uh falling and and uh uh yeah , it feels uh good in your hand . marketing: industrial designer: mm the buttons has to be uh solid too , and the material is soft rubber . uh i 've got a uh email from the possibilities of real reaction . um uh they 're telling me that um when we build uh a remote control of um of plastic or rubber , the uh buttons have to be uh rubber too . mm it 's okay . yeah . i when we use a rubbled a doubled curved case , we must use a rubber push-buttons to uh the the rubber double-curved case is a is a t uh three-dimensional uh curve in the in the design , which is uh necessary when we want to be trendy . uh um user interface: oh . industrial designer: the energy source , uh i 've got a lot of possibilities for that too . um , uh the basic battery , which i thi prefer because of its uh its non uh non-depending of of of uh um uh here you have to have a hand uh yeah , kinetic uh energy . also in uh this one , like in the watches , but a remote control can lie on a table for a day , and then you push uh a button and so you do n't have to uh walk with it all the all the time . mm , solar cells are also uh a bit weird for uh remote controls . marketing: project manager: industrial designer: um uh also the case material , uh i think that plastic is the is the best with rubber , because uh wood or titanium would also be a bit weird . user interface: oh titanium is probably trendy , i think . . marketing: that 's true , i guess . yeah . user interface: well , maybe a little bit expensive . marketing: user interface: i do n't know . industrial designer: uh , they do n't tell anything about the cost of uh titanium . marketing: huh . industrial designer: um the chip uh the chip set uh and the board is uh all off the shelf . also , the speaker in the remote control , when we want to retrieve it . um , the base station is also off the shelf , all the materials and the components are uh just available in uh in our uh factory . mm , i 've told about uh the three first points . mm , the simple electronical chip uh is is available uh with the led transmitter uh transmitter . uh , it 's all uh off the shelf and even the speaker and the wireless retriever are all uh available in our company . um , another possibility . i uh yeah , i looked up on was uh the lcd displays . could be uh something special to our uh remote control , and it 's possible , but it only cost a bit more , but maybe it can be uh within the limits of twenty five euros . project manager: twelve and a half . actually industrial designer: ah yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , production cost . industrial designer: i th i got an email with uh some examples and it these were were the most trendiest one . user interface: industrial designer: you see uh a covers , which can be project manager: what are those , t tooth uh brushes , or so user interface: industrial designer: um , i do n't know . um marketing: project manager: but it 's actually kind of uh user interface: i project manager: well , it resembles the design i had in mind for this proj industrial designer: yes . project manager: you know the the cartoonish alessi kind of design . marketing: yep . industrial designer: yes , maybe we can uh bri uh bring a couple of uh couple of types of uh project manager: and we can we can steal their ideas . marketing: industrial designer: maybe a kind of uh whole uh um a whole set of uh different uh remote controls . project manager: huh . industrial designer: maybe we can bring a whole line uh with uh with a huge variety of uh project manager: well , it 's a possibility , too . industrial designer: uh house uh stuff . user interface: different colours also . industrial designer: like uh maybe radios and uh television also uh in this in this in the same style , but project manager: uh-uh . marketing: yeah , that 'll be for the future , i guess . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: next time we 're here . industrial designer: yes , because we have to uh we have to we have to bring the logo and all the stuff uh back into it . marketing: yeah . project manager: oh , okay . marketing: yeah . definitely . project manager: okay . user interface: okay . industrial designer: thank you . marketing: alright . user interface: uh marketing: yeah . that 's okay . user interface: ah . marketing: user interface: well , i shall go to the next slide . um marketing: user interface: um , i still do n't have any information about user requirements . marketing: user interface: i was thinking about just uh the basic functions and i got uh project manager: oh , we decided upon that in the last meeting . did n't we ? user interface: yeah , but but then wh i do n't know when there are new user requirements . project manager: oh , okay . well , tha i did n't receive any new requirements or somethi user interface: i ha i ha i have the i have project manager: just user interface: nothing . project manager: no , but we decided to use only b basic functions only . user interface: well , i have here a couple of basic functions i could think of . project manager: okay . user interface: i dunno if they 're maybe a little bit more , but project manager: well we maybe we can think of that later . w just user interface: yeah . project manager: these are the ones you already summed up in the user interface: yeah , i i uh well , i pointed them out here , just to make it a little bit easier . project manager: okay . user interface: um another function uh is of course we already discuss it on the side . um , i do n't know what costs of it . uh , i 've no idea about it . uh , i was also looking for what you said , for i got an email uh uh about uh lcd in in in front of the remote control . i do n't know if that 's a good idea , or maybe it 's a little bit too much for twelve and a half . production . project manager: yeah . user interface: if we got already uh something like a base . industrial designer: uh-huh . project manager: that might get redundant also maybe . i do n't know what kind of information it would user interface: yeah , i do n't know . i d i uh ju i was just thinking about it . then i got a pop-ups to go to the meeting . but marketing: mm yeah . project manager: yeah . yeah , it 's okay . industrial designer: maybe we can bring t uh uh teletext to the t to the remote control . user interface: the remote control . marketing: then you project manager: user interface: a little uh too a little bit marketing: and then you 've got a flag s very big r_c_ . yeah . project manager: okay . that 's not it was not a good idea . user interface: a little bit too big , i think . exactly . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: okay . user interface: um , yeah . well , the functions are are not more to discuss , i think . project manager: no . no . user interface: it 's it 's just the base things we already discussed that the no v_c_r_ or that kind of marketing: no . user interface: uh , so that 's very easy . um project manager: but you do mention the next and previous uh button . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: user interface: well , that 's next channel . i mean next channel . marketing: next channel , previous channel . project manager: oh , okay , o okay okay . user interface: uh um oh , i i got an email with with an uh a remote control with a base . project manager: huh . user interface: so , it 's uh just an idea . and i um uh thinked of the button sizes and i 'm not sure uh if they have to be big or uh just small industrial designer: but you 're the expert . marketing: i think it depends on the function . user interface: well , i 'm not a e i 'm the expert for user-friendly , but not for trendiness . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: maybe it marketing: well , if you save uh perhaps uh s tiny buttons are n't user-friendly , then we would n't im implement that of course . project manager: user interface: well uh industrial designer: marketing: user interface: okay , that 's your point . um , yeah . yeah , okay . marketing: user interface: yeah , i 've nothing to s industrial designer: project manager: well , w when we only use basic functions , we have the possibility to make the buttons larger . marketing: oh , that 's right . user interface: uh , with a little bit larger , yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: i thought so , but maybe with the project manager: well , i think we already agreed upon the fact that the the the skip buttons and the cha and the volume buttons , th th those two have yeah , they have to be large . user interface: yeah , that groups . project manager: uh , i mean th th the the two two basic buttons , you know , the to skip channels and to uh user interface: large ? yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: i think yeah , i do n't know why , but i think that is that 's t trendy too , user interface: most the most used uh buttons . marketing: those are probably the the th project manager: because that 's the mo it it you know , it 's uh acc acc um accentu uh , how do you say it ? it puts an extra accent on the the on the simplicity of our remotes to j to make these two most basic functions extra big , like t marketing: yes . user interface: true . yeah . marketing: those are probably the b four most most used buttons on the th in the remote control . project manager: yeah . and you want to acc accentuate that , you know . industrial designer: you did the research . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: it 's from your research . marketing: sorry ? yeah , sure . project manager: so user interface: okay . uh , that was all y industrial designer: user interface: uh personal preference i did n't have . project manager: okay . user interface: i did n't had any time left . project manager: no uh , that 's coo it 's cool . industrial designer: marketing: you do n't care . no , sorry . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: yeah . user interface: marketing: oh . go away . user interface: it 's there . marketing: come on . user interface: yeah , click on it . marketing: . user interface: couple time . marketing: oh , great . well , i 've done some research again about trends on the internet . um i 've done some investigation , and uh well i uh got some information from fashion watchers from paris and uh milan . some uh some findings the most important thing is fancy look and feel of the remote control . uh , well , we were going to imply that , so that 's nice . the second important thing is uh innovative technology in the r_c_ . uh , our market really likes really likes that . and uh the third point there in this uh order if of importance , the third point , is a high ease of use . and uh , well , for the idea , i 've put some trends uh for the market of elderly people . industrial designer: marketing: dark colours , simple recognisable shapes . so we probably wo n't do that . user interface: marketing: the younger market likes uh well , the themes of of this year are uh surprisingly fruits and vegetables and spongy material . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: i found this image , which is uh well , it symbolises the idea of fruits and vegetables . i do n't see the spongy part in it . but with a little bit of fancy project manager: well maybe c then we have to do something with sponge bob then . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: exactly . i got some ideas user interface: marketing: uh well , yeah , pictures is n't really good word , but um industrial designer: marketing: some symbols of fruits or vegetables maybe . uh , catchy colours . industrial designer: marketing: fruit is uh yellow , green , red , whatever . user interface: marketing: so , remote controls in in catchy colours . project manager: it does n't stroke with the with the dark colours . marketing: uh , no , we do n't want dark colours . project manager: not the dark colours ? okay . marketing: no , i just put them there to uh , yeah , uh for general idea . project manager: okay . marketing: and uh , the docking st industrial designer: marketing: uh i think the spongy material is is very irritating for the uh remote control itself . but to industrial designer: marketing: yeah , the to implement some spongy thing , maybe we can do it in the in the docking station . at the bottom of the docking station or whatever . and uh , we could bring one line with a dark colour uh to um uh p uh yeah industrial designer: marketing: uh uh v how do you say ? project manager: for diversity or something . uh marketing: yeah , also a bit for elderly people who are a little bit crazy and want maybe want a little younger design but still the dark colour . user interface: well , how uh industrial designer: marketing: i mean it it it reaches a different market uh , but it it it does n't cost really much effort to b to uh bring uh like a black r_c_ on the market or whatever . yes . user interface: but how do we use uh fruits and vegetables in christ 's sake with remote control ? industrial designer: project manager: no , but i i i think that uh our design already resembles so a piece of fruit . marketing: yeah , there 's there 's always a user interface: uh , make it a banana ? project manager: it 's like a pear or something . user interface: marketing: well there there 's always empty space of course on a remote control . i mean i think this part of the r_c_ uh well the upper the upper part or whatever is uh is not not used with buttons , i guess . project manager: no , i do n't think you have to do it like industrial designer: user interface: marketing: so you you can put some fruity things project manager: yeah , but it that does n't have to remind you , you know , like explicitly of s our f of a of a specific piece of fruit , but just , you know , like the the the the round curves . industrial designer: marketing: no , of course not . project manager: and so y i i think this y it already sem resembles uh something like a pear to me or something . marketing: especially i user interface: yeah , but th yeah , but that marketing: yeah , yeah . yeah , exactly . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , but that 's marketing: if we make it little bit greenish . project manager: you do get the idea , eh ? the fruity kind of round user interface: yeah uh uh project manager: 'kay . marketing: a and we could use one of these for the uh w what is it ? project manager: yeah , uh yeah , i do n't know . industrial designer: grapes . marketing: uh industrial designer: project manager: uh , this is a b yeah . marketing: is n't wha whatever . user interface: but d do n't we need a creative artist or something like that to m make it to feel like a a a a vegetable or fruit ? industrial designer: project manager: yeah , yeah . of course we have uh marketing: yeah , sure . project manager: we have a very big uh the s marketing: yeah . well , w we can uh w we can we can produce multiple uh multiple things . industrial designer: for a big team of artists . project manager: of d design team , yeah . user interface: marketing: this is then the uh pear . i do n't know the english word , so forget it . project manager: yeah , but it 's pear , i guess . marketing: and um , maybe , yeah , a b a banana is uh is n not easy for a remote control , but m yeah . industrial designer: but uh but i think we do n't have to make project manager: no . industrial designer: we ca n't make all uh ten designs . we have to make one design i th i i think . project manager: no , but i think it 's it 's already what we were were up to . marketing: mayb maybe two or three . user interface: yeah . project manager: uh , it 's it does n't have to resemble uh what i already said , a specific piece of fruit , but just , you know , like a fruity thing going on . user interface: marketing: yeah . no sure , but but project manager: and it 's it looks fruity to me . user interface: marketing: b but that 's great , and and and what i was project manager: and uh , but i do like the marketing: what what i was saying , the catchy colours project manager: yeah , i do like uh the f uh to the idea of making a a y uh , a catchy colour design and a d because i do i think a dark colour would be nice too . industrial designer: but pictures of fruit , vegetables vegetables marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe it 's too much , you know . user interface: but , we we have to um there have to be the the the the firm colours , our own uh colours has to be in it . marketing: yeah , uh not really . pictures was a was a bad word , but project manager: okay , but what are the this is yellow . marketing: well we c yeah . user interface: yellow , a real reaction . industrial designer: yes , you can put a logo on top of it . project manager: but i do n't think our our company colours are this fashionable . marketing: yeah , sure . user interface: uh , yeah . marketing: maybe we can if if we got our docking station over here . user interface: we uh f industrial designer: yes , it 's really fruity . marketing: i ca n't draw with this thing , but i 'll try . user interface: a yellow do marketing: if this is our docking station , we can make our logo over here . user interface: uh , yeah . marketing: it does n't work . and then user interface: yeah , and the button then . industrial designer: with a strawberry on top . project manager: yeah , on uh n uh on the bottom of the remote you can do marketing: well , the button button over here or whatever , user interface: okay , yeah . marketing: i do n't know . on the front , of course , because else you ca n't find it . user interface: okay . marketing: well , that were my ideas a little bit . project manager: okay . marketing: i 'll close 'em down . um , go away . project manager: okay , you can you open the conceptual design presentation ? marketing: conceptual design , yes . project manager: see what was on the agenda . user interface: lazy . marketing: the agenda . project manager: this is his own remote . because um , maybe we can start with the technical uh functions , user interface: yeah . project manager: but i do n't think it 's there uh , yeah um , do we want to um use an lcd display , for example ? marketing: well , it 's nice , of course . but i do n't i do n't know what to display on it . industrial designer: only if we project manager: me neither . industrial designer: maybe maybe we can make a tv guide on it , for the channel you 're on . marketing: i mean project manager: yeah , but it 's so marketing: yeah , but it should be li like this big , and i do n't think industrial designer: no , no , only the tv channel with the with uh with uh four programmes . project manager: i do n't think we should do it . industrial designer: you can uh zap through them with the page up page down button . marketing: yes sure , but it it has to to show an entire title of a programme or at least a q a quite quite large part of it and then you get a very large lcd screen , because industrial designer: yes , it can on your no , on your mobile phone you can y you can read text also . so why not on your remote ? project manager: yeah , but no . i do i think it 's a bit redundant , actually . marketing: yeah , i do n't know . project manager: and it 's also not i do n't th even think it it looks s like sexy or something , user interface: well well what would you display on it then ? project manager: it 's industrial designer: uh , programme uh information or or or or g or a guide marketing: programme information . user interface: but is it is n't that a already on tv , a lot of new tvs ? marketing: but industrial designer: on t on teletext , yes . also on the internet . marketing: well a lot a lot of tvs indeed show uh when you uh zap to a industrial designer: but project manager: but you 're already watching the tv , you 're not gon na watch your remote control . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes , but you also want to know what 's next . marketing: but then we also uh w need to bring out a line of tvs which we were planning to , user interface: yeah , project manager: user interface: and we also have to yeah . marketing: but whatever . because the tv has to send information back to the r_c_ , and i do n't know if that 's possible . industrial designer: yes , that 's uh really possible . project manager: marketing: yes , yes , o of course it 's possible , user interface: marketing: but you got ta uh implement it in the tvs , and i do n't think everyone 's gon na buy a real reaction tv within a month after the release of our uh remote control . industrial designer: project manager: i really understand you want to make your job more exciting by putting an lcd in it , user interface: and i also industrial designer: user interface: marketing: project manager: but i i really do n't think it 's a good n goo because it also does n't stroke with we wanted uh c when we talk about the materials , uh it 's a good idea to use these plastic materials with soft rubber stuff on it . it was our idea , you know , to give it a more sturdy look and that you ca like you can throw with it . marketing: yeah . project manager: but i do n't think a lcd display fits in that image . you know , it 's like more vulnerable , and it adds nothing really , you know . marketing: that 's true , that 's true , it breaks f yeah , it it it 's not very solid , it 's uh frag fragile . project manager: yeah , yeah . you could make it , but it 's just it it does n't i do n't think it it 's coherent with the design we 're after . marketing: no . no . i do n't think so ei either . project manager: but that 's my opinion . well , you you y okay , we can vote for it . you want the lcd display . i do n't want to and he does n't , so it 's up to him . industrial designer: no . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: if we wan na user interface: yeah , i dunno . marketing: . ah . industrial designer: project manager: and i 've read somewhere that i 've got some kind of veto veto uh rights . user interface: . oh , okay . industrial designer: marketing: bastard . project manager: so i can also say user interface: we can you away . project manager: but did we skip the yeah , you could do marketing: project manager: m but what what i so what i but do you think we should user interface: yeah , i do n't know . uh , uh i i if it 's it 's a simple p project manager: we 're not even sure what what information we want to display on it . so user interface: no , that that 's right , industrial designer: no uh um user interface: and uh i also have to think about new functions , maybe buttons or something like that to control it . kind of lcd or something or industrial designer: y yes , you can use uh buttons uh uh w that are already uh on the remote control for double functions . marketing: yeah , i guess . user interface: but how does it display then ? w when i go to the second channel , what what does it show me ? industrial designer: uh , then you push a button . the title and the information about the programme . user interface: about that programme ? industrial designer: but but uh yeah , what he said was right , about the televisions , they have to be uh customised to the project manager: nah , that 's not gon na work . industrial designer: but maybe in future it will be a giant hit , and when you are the first marketing: no . project manager: yeah . oh , well uh i 've seen it done before . industrial designer: you have the biggest uh project manager: do you know th like the the bigger rem uh universal remotes , they have d lcd displays , user interface: yeah . project manager: but then it 's very functional to indicate which what uh uh device you are controlling . so it 's that that 's what i 've seen . industrial designer: yes , you can put uh a little lcd display on it with uh with lots of information . marketing: yeah , that 's true , if you uh yeah . project manager: but it just it j it does n't does n't match with the our whole basic concept . industrial designer: but uh i have n't thought about it . but whe but when you put a a a transparent uh plastic uh uh screen on top of it , it i it is n't vulnerable . project manager: well yeah , yeah , okay . that 's maybe not the most important , industrial designer: you can throw with it and project manager: but it 's just user interface: is it fashion ? project manager: i do n't think so . industrial designer: when when you put uh maybe a colour lcd t uh screen on it , it 's very special and very trendy to have uh a remote control from user interface: i do n't know . that 's not up to you . that 's up to market if i if it 's trendy . project manager: yeah , well do you ha do you have to you have n't looked after the trendiness of lcd displays , have you ? marketing: no . industrial designer: user interface: because our our motto is we put fashion marketing: well , i think it 's uh i think it 's pretty trendy , to be honest , uh but um i do n't know if if if well , i 'm coming back to the costs again , but i think uh we got ta build a b pretty cheap design to to stay within our limits . and i think uh especially colour lcd , which is indeed pretty trendy . but i do n't think uh , i think it will be too expensive . industrial designer: but uh i 've got a the email with uh with the possibilities . and lcd was a possibility for the remote control . project manager: user interface: project manager: yeah yeah yeah . industrial designer: so why do n't we use it . project manager: yeah , but we 're gon na if it marketing: uh , did it say a price also uh for for uh monogramme uh lcd or uh coloured lcd ? user interface: yeah , if you want to be trendy you have to be coloured . coloured marketing: yeah really , user interface: if you have black and white or something , or grey , that 's marketing: if y if you c i project manager: then uh then you better do n't yeah , d marketing: i in in two thousand and four you ca n't uh put something on the market which is a monogramme . project manager: user interface: marketing: really . industrial designer: no , but it does n't sa say anything about a colour or but , mm , i alf i also got a possibility to put uh a scroll button on it . but project manager: uh uh i really do n't feel the whole idea of an lcd display . industrial designer: i did n't think that marketing: project manager: i 'm sorry . it ca n't co you can not convince me . i do n't know how well how to with you guys , but i do n't really feel it . we already we 're uh user interface: it 's too much uh maybe uh with with the lcd and the docking station and project manager: yeah , we already have the the th th th base station gadgets , marketing: yeah . project manager: and want and it uh uh , do it has to be a simple design , which sturdy , which soft industrial designer: yes , but o on the marketing: w we 've we 've got ta find a balance , of course . user interface: with one thing special . marketing: and i think user interface: not a whole package of specialty . project manager: i do n't think i j uh , and really , i do n't see how the the lcd display is gon na add anything , you know , on a design level . uh , i think it 's slicker to have no l_ ceds . industrial designer: no , when y project manager: y we want to it 's simplicity , w you have two big buttons and you can do whatever you want with these two buttons , so you do n't need an lcd . industrial designer: but it look yes , but that remote controls are already on the market . the simple project manager: it does n't fit in our philosophy uh behind the whole remote . industrial designer: yes , but but when you want to have something special project manager: yeah , but we already have the docking station , which is industrial designer: yes , but you had a picture of it from another company . user interface: and uh the marketing: we have a pear . project manager: it has to be developed , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: but no , but it that 's industrial designer: project manager: that 's our that 's our killer feature . user interface: it 's just an it 's just an idea . marketing: project manager: that 's our what makes it special . user interface: it 's a it 's industrial designer: yes , it was already made . tha the remote control on the docking station . project manager: yeah , we 're gon na develop our own r n docking station . user interface: true . marketing: is that so ? was it it was n't just a prototype ? user interface: well uh i uh industrial designer: yes , he have a picture of it . project manager: user interface: yeah , i dunno . industrial designer: marketing: exactly , i 've never seen it in a store . project manager: uh , but re we really have to cut this off , user interface: project manager: i re i know you i i i i i get the idea you really like it , you know , the the lcd thing , but i i think it 's it 's not a good idea , and we have already mentioned all the arguments . i do n't uh , do you guys agre how do you guys think ? i d user interface: no , it 's too much . marketing: i think it 's a little too much , yeah . user interface: it 's overdone . project manager: okay , we s skip the lcd display . user interface: industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: i 'm sorry , maybe you can do something if we are at your own place , or make it make it make it happen in your basement or something . user interface: democratically . industrial designer: marketing: no . user interface: industrial designer: mayb marketing: . project manager: but industrial designer: i will rule the world with it . project manager: probably so . marketing: yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . project manager: okay . but for the technical part . the m material , i think uh it was a good idea to use the plastic and uh the rubber . uh industrial designer: yes , maybe a bit of a cushion is project manager: yeah yeah yeah , p exactly . this is what it w yeah , but it it was already what we 're uh we 're after , you know , to give it uh , you know , the soft touch in your hands marketing: yeah , for the spongy uh feel . yeah . industrial designer: yes . user interface: with a spongy bob feel . project manager: and also to , know , like user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , that is y the b airbag kind of thing . industrial designer: like a b yes . project manager: you can st throw it at your little brother 's head . user interface: yeah , you just can drop it . yeah . marketing: yeah , airbag . if you drop it if you drop it the airbag comes out , yeah . project manager: yeah . no no no , not that comfy . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: maybe it marketing: industrial designer: but then we have to look that it uh w uh will not um be too childish to see . project manager: yeah yeah . yeah . okay , that 's a that 's a good point . and that 's why i like the dark t col dark colour bit , you know , because it may be the design uh , it 's uh maybe it is a bit of the marketing: yeah . user interface: but not black i think . project manager: it 's a bit nineties maybe , what we 're what we 're up to rat fun to this point . marketing: no . user interface: well if if it 's fruit and vegetables , it have to be colourful . project manager: yeah , that 's that 's true , but but it has to be a little big solid . marketing: yeah , b yeah , that 's what w i i was pointing at . user interface: but can we ge uh uh project manager: it must n't be too , n you know , th too overwhelming , then when you put it on your just user interface: can we combine it or something ? uh with uh yellow and black ? project manager: yeah . yeah , maybe so . user interface: make it a bee ? a bee . marketing: what ? oh , a bee . oh . project manager: no , uh i do n't like the yellow and black combination . but it is our company colours . apparently . user interface: yeah , it 's our yeah . we we have to use yellow . industrial designer: yes , real real good colours . project manager: marketing: yeah . hmm . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: i do n't like yellow , and uh maybe i do n't know . marketing: well , we can as as i industrial designer: but that 's not really fruity . marketing: draw really nicely over there . we can put the logo on our uh on our base station . uh , yeah . and maybe very very tiny on the remote control itself . project manager: but marketing: but , i project manager: okay , but what uh , what are other tef technical things we have to discuss ? user interface: project manager: industrial designer: uh fronts of the we can have uh different uh uh fronts of the project manager: should we do that ? industrial designer: telephone . project manager: i do n't think you we should do that . maybe just bring it out in different colours , user interface: different fronts . project manager: but not af that you can switch fronts afterwards , that 's also too much . marketing: yeah . i guess that 's that 's enough . project manager: people do n't wan na spend more money on their remote control , i guess . marketing: that 's way too nokia . user interface: yeah . uh , you can you can l uh let choose the customer which colour he wants , yeah . industrial designer: are these designs ? project manager: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah , definitely . just bring more designs on the market . user interface: yeah , three three or four uh four uh colours , or something like that . project manager: but uh , without gon uh marketing: why not , yeah . project manager: okay . so , are we through the technical part then ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: okay . so we uh agreed upon uh n uh well , not u unanimously or how you call it , but yeah . user interface: well , yeah , industrial designer: it this a real uh young young and dynamic uh uh styles . user interface: the three to one . that 's project manager: the materials you uh mentioned in your your personal preferences were all were quite okay . industrial designer: yes . project manager: o o only only the last point your user interface: and tita uh titanium , is uh is is it a no ? industrial designer: yes , project manager: no titanium 's not not out of question , i guess . user interface: is it 's just like that , th this titanium . industrial designer: but also w yes , b bu but when we use s soft project manager: but is it possible to use both the the plastic and so uh soft things and t p titanium , as well ? industrial designer: mm marketing: sure . project manager: makes it in a homogeneous uh design . industrial designer: mm . user interface: no , not all , not all of them . industrial designer: but it it then it uh you ca n't throw it it . it will uh make a huge noise or break other stuff project manager: it will it will break other stuff w when it 's plastic , as well . industrial designer: when you throw with uh titanium with your remote control . user interface: industrial designer: no uh , marketing: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: titanium is a bit uh it 's a bit harder . marketing: yeah , that 's true . project manager: no , but uh uh , you should ma yeah . industrial designer: but also on the colours , the young project manager: okay , think of the possibilities and make it in completely titanium . well would it be more trendy ? more chic ? marketing: yeah , i think it i think it does . user interface: uh , i think titanium nowadays is way more often used than plastic . industrial designer: yes , but a titanium remote control , when you 're uh watching tv uh or your hands are a little bit sweaty , and the user interface: in trendy things . marketing: yeah , o on the other hand , if you want to make fruit fruity stuff with uh user interface: yeah . it 's cold in the winter . project manager: yeah , but i i really like the idea of the the the plastic and the big kind of thing . industrial designer: yes . project manager: but the question is i then it 's , you know , is is it fits in our s philosophy to make it uh sturdy and simple and uh , know , like uh user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , that 's true , that 's true . industrial designer: sports and gaming . define project manager: when you make it titanium , it becomes more like some kind of gadget you actually do n't need . and when it 's big and plastic , it 's like some fun stuff you can always have around . it 's always fun to have something big and plastic around . user interface: you have that uh m_p_ three player of nike , i saw . marketing: yes . yeah . user interface: is n't that titanium with a little bit of rubber ? industrial designer: yes , it 's w but it is uh plastic . user interface: is n't it is plastic ? well , it 's titanium looking . industrial designer: yes , w we can do that on the on the marketing: what ? user interface: yeah , he is . here he is . uh , the i do n't know if you know the m_p_ three player of nike . 'kay , uh that that 's very uh with rubber , so it 's very marketing: oh , yeah . okay , yeah . project manager: yeah , that 's beautiful . marketing: yeah , i see . industrial designer: we can make this as a style too . marketing: yeah , but but but user interface: rough . industrial designer: uh , this is uh just a project manager: oh , maybe th maybe this is an marketing: yeah , i th i think that 's difficult , because uh that 's different material , and then you got ta have like uh uh uh two material lines of of of industrial designer: no , we c we can make it from the same kind of plastic . marketing: yeah , if it 's just a colour uh which you uh which you change then , i guess it 's it 's nice to have one of these . project manager: no , i do like the idea of maybe a t titanium kind type of body w and then with s plastic colouration around it . industrial designer: uh marketing: uh project manager: you know , like the the soft stuff , marketing: yeah . project manager: but i do n't know if it 's possible . industrial designer: i do n't have the information . uh , i i did n't got it project manager: but you ca n't make the plastic give uh the ti titanium look . user interface: true . industrial designer: yes . project manager: but make it just like shiny . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah yeah , true . project manager: maybe we should uh shou industrial designer: like the m_p_ three player . user interface: yeah , maybe that 's good idea , yeah . but if you want to la uh yeah , last longer than two weeks or something like that , you can maybe marketing: yeah . project manager: and uh and marketing: project manager: maybe we sh should we t i do n't know if we should talk about uh , how how much time have we got left ? industrial designer: uh , in a lot of other uh user interface: i do n't know . project manager: forty minutes . user interface: what time does industrial designer: in a lot of other product uh categories like uh even in b in bags industry . uh , they began with uh t typical uh leather bags , but then they became stylish , with all all si all sort of colours , and w kind of fon of uh of fronts , like we can use on the telephone and it marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: like eastpack uh began a revolution with it with all this uh kind of bags and and colours and and project manager: you putting in different colours . industrial designer: yes , and and styles . project manager: okay . industrial designer: they have uh also uh a kind of uh um uh roses on it , a and uh marketing: uh yeah , yeah . project manager: okay . yeah , but w yeah . user interface: project manager: well , it is . it 's a possibility . but , let 's think about the bas industrial designer: then we can always uh use the same design for a greater resemblance , but with new uh with new colours , new marketing: yes . new prints on it . yep . project manager: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . industrial designer: yes . project manager: but wha th our basic idea y i mean , you gon na we 're probably gon na have like two type of materials , like the d d b the plastic uh enclosure and then the the pads that surround it . and and pro and lights . we have to incorporate the lights too . but , uh do w gon na gon na are we going to give it a two-tone colour look , like the the plastic mould is in in one colour and the s the cushion pads around it are in another colour ? is that the idea ? is that a good idea ? marketing: how do you mean ? th th the uh base in a in another project manager: how many colours are we how many colours are we gon na we 're uh uh f uh f user interface: the rubber . project manager: only five minutes left , by the way . how many colours are we gon na give it ? marketing: yes . project manager: like two-tone colour ? t industrial designer: there there are three uh components three components type . user interface: yeah . uh no , not too much i think . industrial designer: you have the buttons , the the case uh itself , and the rubber and th marketing: how the buttons yeah . project manager: i think maybe the case itself should be in one colour and then the rubber of the buttons , and the cushions as well should be in another colour . industrial designer: yes . user interface: or you just make uh one colour , uh maybe with a a z a kind of like a big wave or something like uh marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , but not more than user interface: in in another colour . project manager: well , yeah , it 's user interface: not more than two colours i think . project manager: no . user interface: it 's a g a little bit too flashy . marketing: no , definitely not . project manager: maybe we should talk about it on a l in a later meeting . industrial designer: yeah , or or when you use the buttons as black , it you can use two colours as well uh marketing: yes , definitely . project manager: okay . but we have to uh think of some other uh important things . industrial designer: project manager: uh oh yeah , the the functionalities of the the buttons . user interface: the funct yeah , i was i was thinking about th the st do we still want a joystick idea . project manager: no . marketing: no , i think that 's too vulnerable . project manager: i think this is okay , user interface: yeah . project manager: the so we have the basic . then we have the numbers . we have the power button . we have we have a teletext button . user interface: the volume , teletext and project manager: and maybe want to access a a menu or something . most tvs have a menu . marketing: yeah , but that 's that 's i was thinking that 's got ta be on the television . user interface: project manager: yeah , but i think you ha i really need a menu button . user interface: yeah yeah yeah yeah , b project manager: that 's just i the only button only user interface: yeah , but wha what kind of menu ? project manager: you know , i user interface: is uh is n't that different from every television ? project manager: no , i think most tvs have an uh a menu nowadays to access the uh uh screen settings . and so marketing: mm . yeah , if it 's c if yeah , i think it 's okay to to add a menu button for uh user interface: project manager: but that that covers all the all the other settings . it covers everything then . marketing: and if the tv does n't have a menu , then industrial designer: but then you have to put uh up and down and uh left and right marketing: yeah . project manager: no , you can use the marketing: yeah , you can put that on the two eight four and six or whatever . project manager: and you al can also use the normal skip buttons for that . industrial designer: okay . project manager: th in that way we have like only the numbers , the power button , skip and volume , and then uh uh ten uh rem marketing: mm , yeah . a mute and a teletext and a menu . project manager: uh yeah , mute . a teletext and a menu , and then then i that 's it . user interface: mute . project manager: it 's all we need . marketing: that 's all . user interface: yeah . marketing: hmm . project manager: okay , uh another stuf some stuff about the the the design of the docking station . marketing: great . yeah . user interface: okay , that 's not mu not much functions . so project manager: something important about a s uh , no , uh which sh uh should remind us of the remote itself , i guess . marketing: yeah , definitely . project manager: uh , in one colour . marketing: are we gon na do something with the uh spongy thing there ? project manager: just use i think the spongy thing already um comes forward in the in the in the cushions , pads and things on the s uh side . industrial designer: uh marketing: yeah , that 's true , that 's true . project manager: and we will make it spongy and and uh and uh well , the fruity thing is just the shape should be fru i did i think this is kind of fruity , you know . just round shapes with uh user interface: marketing: yeah , it 's kinda fruity , and with th with catchy colours uh uh w project manager: yeah , but we 're gon na have to we really have to think i think colours is very important , because it has to be flashy , but and but it d it does n't have to be annoying , that when you uh , know , some things is just over the top , and when you have it on your table for more than two weeks , you it just gets annoying , because it 's so big and flashy . marketing: yeah , definitely . project manager: uh , it has to be some level of subtlety , but we have to still have to think of how we manage to uh to get to that . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . guess we 're through then . marketing: okay . user interface: okay . marketing: i guess so . project manager: but we i think also we just so we have to do something with colour but also , i i think we have to keep the dark colour thing in mind . i think that 's uh adds to the user interface: yeah . marketing: yes . project manager: too much colour maybe m um user interface: too much colour , i it uh when you got it in a living room , it 's too much maybe project manager: but our des design experts will uh work that out . marketing: yea yeah . user interface: . it has to be project manager: okay , well i think the meeting will be over within a minute . user interface: yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: so we will wrap up . marketing: something like that . project manager: or is there anything we 'd like to discuss ? that 's right . marketing: i guess not . project manager: okay . marketing: do you , guys ? user interface: no . marketing: no ? project manager: okay . well , you will read the minutes uh in the you can find them in the user interface: oh , okay , yeah . marketing: in the shared folder . project manager: pro probably . yeah uh no , for su for sure because i 'm will now type them out . industrial designer: what are we going to do now ? project manager: uh , y yeah . marketing: you 'll see in you email , i guess . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think uh industrial designer: marketing: yeah , i do n't know . i do n't know . user interface: i hope so . and the other thing is that you do n't have kind of prototype or something like that . you see a kinda prototype you can a little bit more uh industrial designer: i will make one in the next uh twenty minutes . user interface: yeah . marketing: construct one , yeah . project manager: but toilet paper roll and uh user interface: with you laptop ? yeah . marketing: project manager: okay . user interface: oh my god . marketing: alright , shall we get back to work ? project manager: yep . i was waiting for the l last message , but marketing: great . user interface: well you are . we 're not . marketing: yeah . bastard . user interface: industrial designer: back to the pen . project manager: mm yeah . marketing: you lazy industrial designer: { vocalsound }

marketing indicated the three most important findings : fancy look-and-feel , innovative technology , and high ease of use . as the fruits and vegetable theme and sponge material remained trendy that year , the group turned to discuss how to combine the fancy themes with the design and find a proper balance between the elder market and the young market , the specific topics including the color design , the possibility of related symbol and pictures , and the location of business logo .

why did the other group members disagree with industrial designer when talking about the lcd display ? </s> project manager: okay , all set ? welcome to the conceptual design meeting . user interface: uh , okay . industrial designer: yes . project manager: the agenda . the opening . i 'll again be the secretary and make minutes , take minutes , uh and it will be three presentations , just like the last meeting . so um , who wants to start off ? technical uh designer again ? user interface: again . project manager: okay . user interface: hmm . project manager: uh , yeah . uh , before we begin it , i want to say i 've i 've put the minutes of the uh second meeting in the shared folder , but they 're still not uh quite okay . it uh it uh still some technical difficulties so the the first part of the minutes are very hard to read , because there are two documents that uh were layered over each other . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: project manager: so marketing: okay . project manager: but uh , from now on i wo n't use my pen anymore , so will be p just ordinary keyboard . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: user interface: uh , may be better , yeah . marketing: keyboard work . yeah . project manager: i think it will will be more uh easy for you to read the minutes . user interface: yeah . marketing: alright . industrial designer: okay , when we talk about uh components design , um it 's really about the material and the and uh uh really the stuff we build uh the remote controls of . um , a remote control consist of uh components and the components of a remote control consist of uh properties and material . we have to choose th uh these uh wisely and it could affect uh uh a kind of grow of in uh in buying uh the remote controls . um , the components of a remote control are of course uh the case . uh the properties of the case , um it has to be solid uh in hard material like uh hard plastic uh with soft rubber for uh falling and and uh uh yeah , it feels uh good in your hand . marketing: industrial designer: mm the buttons has to be uh solid too , and the material is soft rubber . uh i 've got a uh email from the possibilities of real reaction . um uh they 're telling me that um when we build uh a remote control of um of plastic or rubber , the uh buttons have to be uh rubber too . mm it 's okay . yeah . i when we use a rubbled a doubled curved case , we must use a rubber push-buttons to uh the the rubber double-curved case is a is a t uh three-dimensional uh curve in the in the design , which is uh necessary when we want to be trendy . uh um user interface: oh . industrial designer: the energy source , uh i 've got a lot of possibilities for that too . um , uh the basic battery , which i thi prefer because of its uh its non uh non-depending of of of uh um uh here you have to have a hand uh yeah , kinetic uh energy . also in uh this one , like in the watches , but a remote control can lie on a table for a day , and then you push uh a button and so you do n't have to uh walk with it all the all the time . mm , solar cells are also uh a bit weird for uh remote controls . marketing: project manager: industrial designer: um uh also the case material , uh i think that plastic is the is the best with rubber , because uh wood or titanium would also be a bit weird . user interface: oh titanium is probably trendy , i think . . marketing: that 's true , i guess . yeah . user interface: well , maybe a little bit expensive . marketing: user interface: i do n't know . industrial designer: uh , they do n't tell anything about the cost of uh titanium . marketing: huh . industrial designer: um the chip uh the chip set uh and the board is uh all off the shelf . also , the speaker in the remote control , when we want to retrieve it . um , the base station is also off the shelf , all the materials and the components are uh just available in uh in our uh factory . mm , i 've told about uh the three first points . mm , the simple electronical chip uh is is available uh with the led transmitter uh transmitter . uh , it 's all uh off the shelf and even the speaker and the wireless retriever are all uh available in our company . um , another possibility . i uh yeah , i looked up on was uh the lcd displays . could be uh something special to our uh remote control , and it 's possible , but it only cost a bit more , but maybe it can be uh within the limits of twenty five euros . project manager: twelve and a half . actually industrial designer: ah yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , production cost . industrial designer: i th i got an email with uh some examples and it these were were the most trendiest one . user interface: industrial designer: you see uh a covers , which can be project manager: what are those , t tooth uh brushes , or so user interface: industrial designer: um , i do n't know . um marketing: project manager: but it 's actually kind of uh user interface: i project manager: well , it resembles the design i had in mind for this proj industrial designer: yes . project manager: you know the the cartoonish alessi kind of design . marketing: yep . industrial designer: yes , maybe we can uh bri uh bring a couple of uh couple of types of uh project manager: and we can we can steal their ideas . marketing: industrial designer: maybe a kind of uh whole uh um a whole set of uh different uh remote controls . project manager: huh . industrial designer: maybe we can bring a whole line uh with uh with a huge variety of uh project manager: well , it 's a possibility , too . industrial designer: uh house uh stuff . user interface: different colours also . industrial designer: like uh maybe radios and uh television also uh in this in this in the same style , but project manager: uh-uh . marketing: yeah , that 'll be for the future , i guess . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: next time we 're here . industrial designer: yes , because we have to uh we have to we have to bring the logo and all the stuff uh back into it . marketing: yeah . project manager: oh , okay . marketing: yeah . definitely . project manager: okay . user interface: okay . industrial designer: thank you . marketing: alright . user interface: uh marketing: yeah . that 's okay . user interface: ah . marketing: user interface: well , i shall go to the next slide . um marketing: user interface: um , i still do n't have any information about user requirements . marketing: user interface: i was thinking about just uh the basic functions and i got uh project manager: oh , we decided upon that in the last meeting . did n't we ? user interface: yeah , but but then wh i do n't know when there are new user requirements . project manager: oh , okay . well , tha i did n't receive any new requirements or somethi user interface: i ha i ha i have the i have project manager: just user interface: nothing . project manager: no , but we decided to use only b basic functions only . user interface: well , i have here a couple of basic functions i could think of . project manager: okay . user interface: i dunno if they 're maybe a little bit more , but project manager: well we maybe we can think of that later . w just user interface: yeah . project manager: these are the ones you already summed up in the user interface: yeah , i i uh well , i pointed them out here , just to make it a little bit easier . project manager: okay . user interface: um another function uh is of course we already discuss it on the side . um , i do n't know what costs of it . uh , i 've no idea about it . uh , i was also looking for what you said , for i got an email uh uh about uh lcd in in in front of the remote control . i do n't know if that 's a good idea , or maybe it 's a little bit too much for twelve and a half . production . project manager: yeah . user interface: if we got already uh something like a base . industrial designer: uh-huh . project manager: that might get redundant also maybe . i do n't know what kind of information it would user interface: yeah , i do n't know . i d i uh ju i was just thinking about it . then i got a pop-ups to go to the meeting . but marketing: mm yeah . project manager: yeah . yeah , it 's okay . industrial designer: maybe we can bring t uh uh teletext to the t to the remote control . user interface: the remote control . marketing: then you project manager: user interface: a little uh too a little bit marketing: and then you 've got a flag s very big r_c_ . yeah . project manager: okay . that 's not it was not a good idea . user interface: a little bit too big , i think . exactly . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: okay . user interface: um , yeah . well , the functions are are not more to discuss , i think . project manager: no . no . user interface: it 's it 's just the base things we already discussed that the no v_c_r_ or that kind of marketing: no . user interface: uh , so that 's very easy . um project manager: but you do mention the next and previous uh button . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: user interface: well , that 's next channel . i mean next channel . marketing: next channel , previous channel . project manager: oh , okay , o okay okay . user interface: uh um oh , i i got an email with with an uh a remote control with a base . project manager: huh . user interface: so , it 's uh just an idea . and i um uh thinked of the button sizes and i 'm not sure uh if they have to be big or uh just small industrial designer: but you 're the expert . marketing: i think it depends on the function . user interface: well , i 'm not a e i 'm the expert for user-friendly , but not for trendiness . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: maybe it marketing: well , if you save uh perhaps uh s tiny buttons are n't user-friendly , then we would n't im implement that of course . project manager: user interface: well uh industrial designer: marketing: user interface: okay , that 's your point . um , yeah . yeah , okay . marketing: user interface: yeah , i 've nothing to s industrial designer: project manager: well , w when we only use basic functions , we have the possibility to make the buttons larger . marketing: oh , that 's right . user interface: uh , with a little bit larger , yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: i thought so , but maybe with the project manager: well , i think we already agreed upon the fact that the the the skip buttons and the cha and the volume buttons , th th those two have yeah , they have to be large . user interface: yeah , that groups . project manager: uh , i mean th th the the two two basic buttons , you know , the to skip channels and to uh user interface: large ? yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: i think yeah , i do n't know why , but i think that is that 's t trendy too , user interface: most the most used uh buttons . marketing: those are probably the the th project manager: because that 's the mo it it you know , it 's uh acc acc um accentu uh , how do you say it ? it puts an extra accent on the the on the simplicity of our remotes to j to make these two most basic functions extra big , like t marketing: yes . user interface: true . yeah . marketing: those are probably the b four most most used buttons on the th in the remote control . project manager: yeah . and you want to acc accentuate that , you know . industrial designer: you did the research . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: it 's from your research . marketing: sorry ? yeah , sure . project manager: so user interface: okay . uh , that was all y industrial designer: user interface: uh personal preference i did n't have . project manager: okay . user interface: i did n't had any time left . project manager: no uh , that 's coo it 's cool . industrial designer: marketing: you do n't care . no , sorry . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: yeah . user interface: marketing: oh . go away . user interface: it 's there . marketing: come on . user interface: yeah , click on it . marketing: . user interface: couple time . marketing: oh , great . well , i 've done some research again about trends on the internet . um i 've done some investigation , and uh well i uh got some information from fashion watchers from paris and uh milan . some uh some findings the most important thing is fancy look and feel of the remote control . uh , well , we were going to imply that , so that 's nice . the second important thing is uh innovative technology in the r_c_ . uh , our market really likes really likes that . and uh the third point there in this uh order if of importance , the third point , is a high ease of use . and uh , well , for the idea , i 've put some trends uh for the market of elderly people . industrial designer: marketing: dark colours , simple recognisable shapes . so we probably wo n't do that . user interface: marketing: the younger market likes uh well , the themes of of this year are uh surprisingly fruits and vegetables and spongy material . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: i found this image , which is uh well , it symbolises the idea of fruits and vegetables . i do n't see the spongy part in it . but with a little bit of fancy project manager: well maybe c then we have to do something with sponge bob then . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: exactly . i got some ideas user interface: marketing: uh well , yeah , pictures is n't really good word , but um industrial designer: marketing: some symbols of fruits or vegetables maybe . uh , catchy colours . industrial designer: marketing: fruit is uh yellow , green , red , whatever . user interface: marketing: so , remote controls in in catchy colours . project manager: it does n't stroke with the with the dark colours . marketing: uh , no , we do n't want dark colours . project manager: not the dark colours ? okay . marketing: no , i just put them there to uh , yeah , uh for general idea . project manager: okay . marketing: and uh , the docking st industrial designer: marketing: uh i think the spongy material is is very irritating for the uh remote control itself . but to industrial designer: marketing: yeah , the to implement some spongy thing , maybe we can do it in the in the docking station . at the bottom of the docking station or whatever . and uh , we could bring one line with a dark colour uh to um uh p uh yeah industrial designer: marketing: uh uh v how do you say ? project manager: for diversity or something . uh marketing: yeah , also a bit for elderly people who are a little bit crazy and want maybe want a little younger design but still the dark colour . user interface: well , how uh industrial designer: marketing: i mean it it it reaches a different market uh , but it it it does n't cost really much effort to b to uh bring uh like a black r_c_ on the market or whatever . yes . user interface: but how do we use uh fruits and vegetables in christ 's sake with remote control ? industrial designer: project manager: no , but i i i think that uh our design already resembles so a piece of fruit . marketing: yeah , there 's there 's always a user interface: uh , make it a banana ? project manager: it 's like a pear or something . user interface: marketing: well there there 's always empty space of course on a remote control . i mean i think this part of the r_c_ uh well the upper the upper part or whatever is uh is not not used with buttons , i guess . project manager: no , i do n't think you have to do it like industrial designer: user interface: marketing: so you you can put some fruity things project manager: yeah , but it that does n't have to remind you , you know , like explicitly of s our f of a of a specific piece of fruit , but just , you know , like the the the the round curves . industrial designer: marketing: no , of course not . project manager: and so y i i think this y it already sem resembles uh something like a pear to me or something . marketing: especially i user interface: yeah , but th yeah , but that marketing: yeah , yeah . yeah , exactly . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , but that 's marketing: if we make it little bit greenish . project manager: you do get the idea , eh ? the fruity kind of round user interface: yeah uh uh project manager: 'kay . marketing: a and we could use one of these for the uh w what is it ? project manager: yeah , uh yeah , i do n't know . industrial designer: grapes . marketing: uh industrial designer: project manager: uh , this is a b yeah . marketing: is n't wha whatever . user interface: but d do n't we need a creative artist or something like that to m make it to feel like a a a a vegetable or fruit ? industrial designer: project manager: yeah , yeah . of course we have uh marketing: yeah , sure . project manager: we have a very big uh the s marketing: yeah . well , w we can uh w we can we can produce multiple uh multiple things . industrial designer: for a big team of artists . project manager: of d design team , yeah . user interface: marketing: this is then the uh pear . i do n't know the english word , so forget it . project manager: yeah , but it 's pear , i guess . marketing: and um , maybe , yeah , a b a banana is uh is n not easy for a remote control , but m yeah . industrial designer: but uh but i think we do n't have to make project manager: no . industrial designer: we ca n't make all uh ten designs . we have to make one design i th i i think . project manager: no , but i think it 's it 's already what we were were up to . marketing: mayb maybe two or three . user interface: yeah . project manager: uh , it 's it does n't have to resemble uh what i already said , a specific piece of fruit , but just , you know , like a fruity thing going on . user interface: marketing: yeah . no sure , but but project manager: and it 's it looks fruity to me . user interface: marketing: b but that 's great , and and and what i was project manager: and uh , but i do like the marketing: what what i was saying , the catchy colours project manager: yeah , i do like uh the f uh to the idea of making a a y uh , a catchy colour design and a d because i do i think a dark colour would be nice too . industrial designer: but pictures of fruit , vegetables vegetables marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe it 's too much , you know . user interface: but , we we have to um there have to be the the the the firm colours , our own uh colours has to be in it . marketing: yeah , uh not really . pictures was a was a bad word , but project manager: okay , but what are the this is yellow . marketing: well we c yeah . user interface: yellow , a real reaction . industrial designer: yes , you can put a logo on top of it . project manager: but i do n't think our our company colours are this fashionable . marketing: yeah , sure . user interface: uh , yeah . marketing: maybe we can if if we got our docking station over here . user interface: we uh f industrial designer: yes , it 's really fruity . marketing: i ca n't draw with this thing , but i 'll try . user interface: a yellow do marketing: if this is our docking station , we can make our logo over here . user interface: uh , yeah . marketing: it does n't work . and then user interface: yeah , and the button then . industrial designer: with a strawberry on top . project manager: yeah , on uh n uh on the bottom of the remote you can do marketing: well , the button button over here or whatever , user interface: okay , yeah . marketing: i do n't know . on the front , of course , because else you ca n't find it . user interface: okay . marketing: well , that were my ideas a little bit . project manager: okay . marketing: i 'll close 'em down . um , go away . project manager: okay , you can you open the conceptual design presentation ? marketing: conceptual design , yes . project manager: see what was on the agenda . user interface: lazy . marketing: the agenda . project manager: this is his own remote . because um , maybe we can start with the technical uh functions , user interface: yeah . project manager: but i do n't think it 's there uh , yeah um , do we want to um use an lcd display , for example ? marketing: well , it 's nice , of course . but i do n't i do n't know what to display on it . industrial designer: only if we project manager: me neither . industrial designer: maybe maybe we can make a tv guide on it , for the channel you 're on . marketing: i mean project manager: yeah , but it 's so marketing: yeah , but it should be li like this big , and i do n't think industrial designer: no , no , only the tv channel with the with uh with uh four programmes . project manager: i do n't think we should do it . industrial designer: you can uh zap through them with the page up page down button . marketing: yes sure , but it it has to to show an entire title of a programme or at least a q a quite quite large part of it and then you get a very large lcd screen , because industrial designer: yes , it can on your no , on your mobile phone you can y you can read text also . so why not on your remote ? project manager: yeah , but no . i do i think it 's a bit redundant , actually . marketing: yeah , i do n't know . project manager: and it 's also not i do n't th even think it it looks s like sexy or something , user interface: well well what would you display on it then ? project manager: it 's industrial designer: uh , programme uh information or or or or g or a guide marketing: programme information . user interface: but is it is n't that a already on tv , a lot of new tvs ? marketing: but industrial designer: on t on teletext , yes . also on the internet . marketing: well a lot a lot of tvs indeed show uh when you uh zap to a industrial designer: but project manager: but you 're already watching the tv , you 're not gon na watch your remote control . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes , but you also want to know what 's next . marketing: but then we also uh w need to bring out a line of tvs which we were planning to , user interface: yeah , project manager: user interface: and we also have to yeah . marketing: but whatever . because the tv has to send information back to the r_c_ , and i do n't know if that 's possible . industrial designer: yes , that 's uh really possible . project manager: marketing: yes , yes , o of course it 's possible , user interface: marketing: but you got ta uh implement it in the tvs , and i do n't think everyone 's gon na buy a real reaction tv within a month after the release of our uh remote control . industrial designer: project manager: i really understand you want to make your job more exciting by putting an lcd in it , user interface: and i also industrial designer: user interface: marketing: project manager: but i i really do n't think it 's a good n goo because it also does n't stroke with we wanted uh c when we talk about the materials , uh it 's a good idea to use these plastic materials with soft rubber stuff on it . it was our idea , you know , to give it a more sturdy look and that you ca like you can throw with it . marketing: yeah . project manager: but i do n't think a lcd display fits in that image . you know , it 's like more vulnerable , and it adds nothing really , you know . marketing: that 's true , that 's true , it breaks f yeah , it it it 's not very solid , it 's uh frag fragile . project manager: yeah , yeah . you could make it , but it 's just it it does n't i do n't think it it 's coherent with the design we 're after . marketing: no . no . i do n't think so ei either . project manager: but that 's my opinion . well , you you y okay , we can vote for it . you want the lcd display . i do n't want to and he does n't , so it 's up to him . industrial designer: no . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: if we wan na user interface: yeah , i dunno . marketing: . ah . industrial designer: project manager: and i 've read somewhere that i 've got some kind of veto veto uh rights . user interface: . oh , okay . industrial designer: marketing: bastard . project manager: so i can also say user interface: we can you away . project manager: but did we skip the yeah , you could do marketing: project manager: m but what what i so what i but do you think we should user interface: yeah , i do n't know . uh , uh i i if it 's it 's a simple p project manager: we 're not even sure what what information we want to display on it . so user interface: no , that that 's right , industrial designer: no uh um user interface: and uh i also have to think about new functions , maybe buttons or something like that to control it . kind of lcd or something or industrial designer: y yes , you can use uh buttons uh uh w that are already uh on the remote control for double functions . marketing: yeah , i guess . user interface: but how does it display then ? w when i go to the second channel , what what does it show me ? industrial designer: uh , then you push a button . the title and the information about the programme . user interface: about that programme ? industrial designer: but but uh yeah , what he said was right , about the televisions , they have to be uh customised to the project manager: nah , that 's not gon na work . industrial designer: but maybe in future it will be a giant hit , and when you are the first marketing: no . project manager: yeah . oh , well uh i 've seen it done before . industrial designer: you have the biggest uh project manager: do you know th like the the bigger rem uh universal remotes , they have d lcd displays , user interface: yeah . project manager: but then it 's very functional to indicate which what uh uh device you are controlling . so it 's that that 's what i 've seen . industrial designer: yes , you can put uh a little lcd display on it with uh with lots of information . marketing: yeah , that 's true , if you uh yeah . project manager: but it just it j it does n't does n't match with the our whole basic concept . industrial designer: but uh i have n't thought about it . but whe but when you put a a a transparent uh plastic uh uh screen on top of it , it i it is n't vulnerable . project manager: well yeah , yeah , okay . that 's maybe not the most important , industrial designer: you can throw with it and project manager: but it 's just user interface: is it fashion ? project manager: i do n't think so . industrial designer: when when you put uh maybe a colour lcd t uh screen on it , it 's very special and very trendy to have uh a remote control from user interface: i do n't know . that 's not up to you . that 's up to market if i if it 's trendy . project manager: yeah , well do you ha do you have to you have n't looked after the trendiness of lcd displays , have you ? marketing: no . industrial designer: user interface: because our our motto is we put fashion marketing: well , i think it 's uh i think it 's pretty trendy , to be honest , uh but um i do n't know if if if well , i 'm coming back to the costs again , but i think uh we got ta build a b pretty cheap design to to stay within our limits . and i think uh especially colour lcd , which is indeed pretty trendy . but i do n't think uh , i think it will be too expensive . industrial designer: but uh i 've got a the email with uh with the possibilities . and lcd was a possibility for the remote control . project manager: user interface: project manager: yeah yeah yeah . industrial designer: so why do n't we use it . project manager: yeah , but we 're gon na if it marketing: uh , did it say a price also uh for for uh monogramme uh lcd or uh coloured lcd ? user interface: yeah , if you want to be trendy you have to be coloured . coloured marketing: yeah really , user interface: if you have black and white or something , or grey , that 's marketing: if y if you c i project manager: then uh then you better do n't yeah , d marketing: i in in two thousand and four you ca n't uh put something on the market which is a monogramme . project manager: user interface: marketing: really . industrial designer: no , but it does n't sa say anything about a colour or but , mm , i alf i also got a possibility to put uh a scroll button on it . but project manager: uh uh i really do n't feel the whole idea of an lcd display . industrial designer: i did n't think that marketing: project manager: i 'm sorry . it ca n't co you can not convince me . i do n't know how well how to with you guys , but i do n't really feel it . we already we 're uh user interface: it 's too much uh maybe uh with with the lcd and the docking station and project manager: yeah , we already have the the th th th base station gadgets , marketing: yeah . project manager: and want and it uh uh , do it has to be a simple design , which sturdy , which soft industrial designer: yes , but o on the marketing: w we 've we 've got ta find a balance , of course . user interface: with one thing special . marketing: and i think user interface: not a whole package of specialty . project manager: i do n't think i j uh , and really , i do n't see how the the lcd display is gon na add anything , you know , on a design level . uh , i think it 's slicker to have no l_ ceds . industrial designer: no , when y project manager: y we want to it 's simplicity , w you have two big buttons and you can do whatever you want with these two buttons , so you do n't need an lcd . industrial designer: but it look yes , but that remote controls are already on the market . the simple project manager: it does n't fit in our philosophy uh behind the whole remote . industrial designer: yes , but but when you want to have something special project manager: yeah , but we already have the docking station , which is industrial designer: yes , but you had a picture of it from another company . user interface: and uh the marketing: we have a pear . project manager: it has to be developed , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: but no , but it that 's industrial designer: project manager: that 's our that 's our killer feature . user interface: it 's just an it 's just an idea . marketing: project manager: that 's our what makes it special . user interface: it 's a it 's industrial designer: yes , it was already made . tha the remote control on the docking station . project manager: yeah , we 're gon na develop our own r n docking station . user interface: true . marketing: is that so ? was it it was n't just a prototype ? user interface: well uh i uh industrial designer: yes , he have a picture of it . project manager: user interface: yeah , i dunno . industrial designer: marketing: exactly , i 've never seen it in a store . project manager: uh , but re we really have to cut this off , user interface: project manager: i re i know you i i i i i get the idea you really like it , you know , the the lcd thing , but i i think it 's it 's not a good idea , and we have already mentioned all the arguments . i do n't uh , do you guys agre how do you guys think ? i d user interface: no , it 's too much . marketing: i think it 's a little too much , yeah . user interface: it 's overdone . project manager: okay , we s skip the lcd display . user interface: industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: i 'm sorry , maybe you can do something if we are at your own place , or make it make it make it happen in your basement or something . user interface: democratically . industrial designer: marketing: no . user interface: industrial designer: mayb marketing: . project manager: but industrial designer: i will rule the world with it . project manager: probably so . marketing: yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . project manager: okay . but for the technical part . the m material , i think uh it was a good idea to use the plastic and uh the rubber . uh industrial designer: yes , maybe a bit of a cushion is project manager: yeah yeah yeah , p exactly . this is what it w yeah , but it it was already what we 're uh we 're after , you know , to give it uh , you know , the soft touch in your hands marketing: yeah , for the spongy uh feel . yeah . industrial designer: yes . user interface: with a spongy bob feel . project manager: and also to , know , like user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , that is y the b airbag kind of thing . industrial designer: like a b yes . project manager: you can st throw it at your little brother 's head . user interface: yeah , you just can drop it . yeah . marketing: yeah , airbag . if you drop it if you drop it the airbag comes out , yeah . project manager: yeah . no no no , not that comfy . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: maybe it marketing: industrial designer: but then we have to look that it uh w uh will not um be too childish to see . project manager: yeah yeah . yeah . okay , that 's a that 's a good point . and that 's why i like the dark t col dark colour bit , you know , because it may be the design uh , it 's uh maybe it is a bit of the marketing: yeah . user interface: but not black i think . project manager: it 's a bit nineties maybe , what we 're what we 're up to rat fun to this point . marketing: no . user interface: well if if it 's fruit and vegetables , it have to be colourful . project manager: yeah , that 's that 's true , but but it has to be a little big solid . marketing: yeah , b yeah , that 's what w i i was pointing at . user interface: but can we ge uh uh project manager: it must n't be too , n you know , th too overwhelming , then when you put it on your just user interface: can we combine it or something ? uh with uh yellow and black ? project manager: yeah . yeah , maybe so . user interface: make it a bee ? a bee . marketing: what ? oh , a bee . oh . project manager: no , uh i do n't like the yellow and black combination . but it is our company colours . apparently . user interface: yeah , it 's our yeah . we we have to use yellow . industrial designer: yes , real real good colours . project manager: marketing: yeah . hmm . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: i do n't like yellow , and uh maybe i do n't know . marketing: well , we can as as i industrial designer: but that 's not really fruity . marketing: draw really nicely over there . we can put the logo on our uh on our base station . uh , yeah . and maybe very very tiny on the remote control itself . project manager: but marketing: but , i project manager: okay , but what uh , what are other tef technical things we have to discuss ? user interface: project manager: industrial designer: uh fronts of the we can have uh different uh uh fronts of the project manager: should we do that ? industrial designer: telephone . project manager: i do n't think you we should do that . maybe just bring it out in different colours , user interface: different fronts . project manager: but not af that you can switch fronts afterwards , that 's also too much . marketing: yeah . i guess that 's that 's enough . project manager: people do n't wan na spend more money on their remote control , i guess . marketing: that 's way too nokia . user interface: yeah . uh , you can you can l uh let choose the customer which colour he wants , yeah . industrial designer: are these designs ? project manager: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah , definitely . just bring more designs on the market . user interface: yeah , three three or four uh four uh colours , or something like that . project manager: but uh , without gon uh marketing: why not , yeah . project manager: okay . so , are we through the technical part then ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: okay . so we uh agreed upon uh n uh well , not u unanimously or how you call it , but yeah . user interface: well , yeah , industrial designer: it this a real uh young young and dynamic uh uh styles . user interface: the three to one . that 's project manager: the materials you uh mentioned in your your personal preferences were all were quite okay . industrial designer: yes . project manager: o o only only the last point your user interface: and tita uh titanium , is uh is is it a no ? industrial designer: yes , project manager: no titanium 's not not out of question , i guess . user interface: is it 's just like that , th this titanium . industrial designer: but also w yes , b bu but when we use s soft project manager: but is it possible to use both the the plastic and so uh soft things and t p titanium , as well ? industrial designer: mm marketing: sure . project manager: makes it in a homogeneous uh design . industrial designer: mm . user interface: no , not all , not all of them . industrial designer: but it it then it uh you ca n't throw it it . it will uh make a huge noise or break other stuff project manager: it will it will break other stuff w when it 's plastic , as well . industrial designer: when you throw with uh titanium with your remote control . user interface: industrial designer: no uh , marketing: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: titanium is a bit uh it 's a bit harder . marketing: yeah , that 's true . project manager: no , but uh uh , you should ma yeah . industrial designer: but also on the colours , the young project manager: okay , think of the possibilities and make it in completely titanium . well would it be more trendy ? more chic ? marketing: yeah , i think it i think it does . user interface: uh , i think titanium nowadays is way more often used than plastic . industrial designer: yes , but a titanium remote control , when you 're uh watching tv uh or your hands are a little bit sweaty , and the user interface: in trendy things . marketing: yeah , o on the other hand , if you want to make fruit fruity stuff with uh user interface: yeah . it 's cold in the winter . project manager: yeah , but i i really like the idea of the the the plastic and the big kind of thing . industrial designer: yes . project manager: but the question is i then it 's , you know , is is it fits in our s philosophy to make it uh sturdy and simple and uh , know , like uh user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , that 's true , that 's true . industrial designer: sports and gaming . define project manager: when you make it titanium , it becomes more like some kind of gadget you actually do n't need . and when it 's big and plastic , it 's like some fun stuff you can always have around . it 's always fun to have something big and plastic around . user interface: you have that uh m_p_ three player of nike , i saw . marketing: yes . yeah . user interface: is n't that titanium with a little bit of rubber ? industrial designer: yes , it 's w but it is uh plastic . user interface: is n't it is plastic ? well , it 's titanium looking . industrial designer: yes , w we can do that on the on the marketing: what ? user interface: yeah , he is . here he is . uh , the i do n't know if you know the m_p_ three player of nike . 'kay , uh that that 's very uh with rubber , so it 's very marketing: oh , yeah . okay , yeah . project manager: yeah , that 's beautiful . marketing: yeah , i see . industrial designer: we can make this as a style too . marketing: yeah , but but but user interface: rough . industrial designer: uh , this is uh just a project manager: oh , maybe th maybe this is an marketing: yeah , i th i think that 's difficult , because uh that 's different material , and then you got ta have like uh uh uh two material lines of of of industrial designer: no , we c we can make it from the same kind of plastic . marketing: yeah , if it 's just a colour uh which you uh which you change then , i guess it 's it 's nice to have one of these . project manager: no , i do like the idea of maybe a t titanium kind type of body w and then with s plastic colouration around it . industrial designer: uh marketing: uh project manager: you know , like the the soft stuff , marketing: yeah . project manager: but i do n't know if it 's possible . industrial designer: i do n't have the information . uh , i i did n't got it project manager: but you ca n't make the plastic give uh the ti titanium look . user interface: true . industrial designer: yes . project manager: but make it just like shiny . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah yeah , true . project manager: maybe we should uh shou industrial designer: like the m_p_ three player . user interface: yeah , maybe that 's good idea , yeah . but if you want to la uh yeah , last longer than two weeks or something like that , you can maybe marketing: yeah . project manager: and uh and marketing: project manager: maybe we sh should we t i do n't know if we should talk about uh , how how much time have we got left ? industrial designer: uh , in a lot of other uh user interface: i do n't know . project manager: forty minutes . user interface: what time does industrial designer: in a lot of other product uh categories like uh even in b in bags industry . uh , they began with uh t typical uh leather bags , but then they became stylish , with all all si all sort of colours , and w kind of fon of uh of fronts , like we can use on the telephone and it marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: like eastpack uh began a revolution with it with all this uh kind of bags and and colours and and project manager: you putting in different colours . industrial designer: yes , and and styles . project manager: okay . industrial designer: they have uh also uh a kind of uh um uh roses on it , a and uh marketing: uh yeah , yeah . project manager: okay . yeah , but w yeah . user interface: project manager: well , it is . it 's a possibility . but , let 's think about the bas industrial designer: then we can always uh use the same design for a greater resemblance , but with new uh with new colours , new marketing: yes . new prints on it . yep . project manager: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . industrial designer: yes . project manager: but wha th our basic idea y i mean , you gon na we 're probably gon na have like two type of materials , like the d d b the plastic uh enclosure and then the the pads that surround it . and and pro and lights . we have to incorporate the lights too . but , uh do w gon na gon na are we going to give it a two-tone colour look , like the the plastic mould is in in one colour and the s the cushion pads around it are in another colour ? is that the idea ? is that a good idea ? marketing: how do you mean ? th th the uh base in a in another project manager: how many colours are we how many colours are we gon na we 're uh uh f uh f user interface: the rubber . project manager: only five minutes left , by the way . how many colours are we gon na give it ? marketing: yes . project manager: like two-tone colour ? t industrial designer: there there are three uh components three components type . user interface: yeah . uh no , not too much i think . industrial designer: you have the buttons , the the case uh itself , and the rubber and th marketing: how the buttons yeah . project manager: i think maybe the case itself should be in one colour and then the rubber of the buttons , and the cushions as well should be in another colour . industrial designer: yes . user interface: or you just make uh one colour , uh maybe with a a z a kind of like a big wave or something like uh marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , but not more than user interface: in in another colour . project manager: well , yeah , it 's user interface: not more than two colours i think . project manager: no . user interface: it 's a g a little bit too flashy . marketing: no , definitely not . project manager: maybe we should talk about it on a l in a later meeting . industrial designer: yeah , or or when you use the buttons as black , it you can use two colours as well uh marketing: yes , definitely . project manager: okay . but we have to uh think of some other uh important things . industrial designer: project manager: uh oh yeah , the the functionalities of the the buttons . user interface: the funct yeah , i was i was thinking about th the st do we still want a joystick idea . project manager: no . marketing: no , i think that 's too vulnerable . project manager: i think this is okay , user interface: yeah . project manager: the so we have the basic . then we have the numbers . we have the power button . we have we have a teletext button . user interface: the volume , teletext and project manager: and maybe want to access a a menu or something . most tvs have a menu . marketing: yeah , but that 's that 's i was thinking that 's got ta be on the television . user interface: project manager: yeah , but i think you ha i really need a menu button . user interface: yeah yeah yeah yeah , b project manager: that 's just i the only button only user interface: yeah , but wha what kind of menu ? project manager: you know , i user interface: is uh is n't that different from every television ? project manager: no , i think most tvs have an uh a menu nowadays to access the uh uh screen settings . and so marketing: mm . yeah , if it 's c if yeah , i think it 's okay to to add a menu button for uh user interface: project manager: but that that covers all the all the other settings . it covers everything then . marketing: and if the tv does n't have a menu , then industrial designer: but then you have to put uh up and down and uh left and right marketing: yeah . project manager: no , you can use the marketing: yeah , you can put that on the two eight four and six or whatever . project manager: and you al can also use the normal skip buttons for that . industrial designer: okay . project manager: th in that way we have like only the numbers , the power button , skip and volume , and then uh uh ten uh rem marketing: mm , yeah . a mute and a teletext and a menu . project manager: uh yeah , mute . a teletext and a menu , and then then i that 's it . user interface: mute . project manager: it 's all we need . marketing: that 's all . user interface: yeah . marketing: hmm . project manager: okay , uh another stuf some stuff about the the the design of the docking station . marketing: great . yeah . user interface: okay , that 's not mu not much functions . so project manager: something important about a s uh , no , uh which sh uh should remind us of the remote itself , i guess . marketing: yeah , definitely . project manager: uh , in one colour . marketing: are we gon na do something with the uh spongy thing there ? project manager: just use i think the spongy thing already um comes forward in the in the in the cushions , pads and things on the s uh side . industrial designer: uh marketing: yeah , that 's true , that 's true . project manager: and we will make it spongy and and uh and uh well , the fruity thing is just the shape should be fru i did i think this is kind of fruity , you know . just round shapes with uh user interface: marketing: yeah , it 's kinda fruity , and with th with catchy colours uh uh w project manager: yeah , but we 're gon na have to we really have to think i think colours is very important , because it has to be flashy , but and but it d it does n't have to be annoying , that when you uh , know , some things is just over the top , and when you have it on your table for more than two weeks , you it just gets annoying , because it 's so big and flashy . marketing: yeah , definitely . project manager: uh , it has to be some level of subtlety , but we have to still have to think of how we manage to uh to get to that . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . guess we 're through then . marketing: okay . user interface: okay . marketing: i guess so . project manager: but we i think also we just so we have to do something with colour but also , i i think we have to keep the dark colour thing in mind . i think that 's uh adds to the user interface: yeah . marketing: yes . project manager: too much colour maybe m um user interface: too much colour , i it uh when you got it in a living room , it 's too much maybe project manager: but our des design experts will uh work that out . marketing: yea yeah . user interface: . it has to be project manager: okay , well i think the meeting will be over within a minute . user interface: yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: so we will wrap up . marketing: something like that . project manager: or is there anything we 'd like to discuss ? that 's right . marketing: i guess not . project manager: okay . marketing: do you , guys ? user interface: no . marketing: no ? project manager: okay . well , you will read the minutes uh in the you can find them in the user interface: oh , okay , yeah . marketing: in the shared folder . project manager: pro probably . yeah uh no , for su for sure because i 'm will now type them out . industrial designer: what are we going to do now ? project manager: uh , y yeah . marketing: you 'll see in you email , i guess . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think uh industrial designer: marketing: yeah , i do n't know . i do n't know . user interface: i hope so . and the other thing is that you do n't have kind of prototype or something like that . you see a kinda prototype you can a little bit more uh industrial designer: i will make one in the next uh twenty minutes . user interface: yeah . marketing: construct one , yeah . project manager: but toilet paper roll and uh user interface: with you laptop ? yeah . marketing: project manager: okay . user interface: oh my god . marketing: alright , shall we get back to work ? project manager: yep . i was waiting for the l last message , but marketing: great . user interface: well you are . we 're not . marketing: yeah . bastard . user interface: industrial designer: back to the pen . project manager: mm yeah . marketing: you lazy industrial designer: { vocalsound }

industrial designer wanted an lcd that could be applied to show program information , which was also trendy if colored . however , this idea was disagreed by other group members for the following reasons . first , a big lcd screen was too expensive . second , most users read the information on tv and the internet instead of the remote . next , lcd had a vulnerable feature and was also too functional to match the basic design concept . moreover , for user interface suggested that the design required only one specialty , lcd was not that necessary when the group had already decided on the docking station .

what was the discussion about completely titanium design when talking about materials ? </s> project manager: okay , all set ? welcome to the conceptual design meeting . user interface: uh , okay . industrial designer: yes . project manager: the agenda . the opening . i 'll again be the secretary and make minutes , take minutes , uh and it will be three presentations , just like the last meeting . so um , who wants to start off ? technical uh designer again ? user interface: again . project manager: okay . user interface: hmm . project manager: uh , yeah . uh , before we begin it , i want to say i 've i 've put the minutes of the uh second meeting in the shared folder , but they 're still not uh quite okay . it uh it uh still some technical difficulties so the the first part of the minutes are very hard to read , because there are two documents that uh were layered over each other . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: project manager: so marketing: okay . project manager: but uh , from now on i wo n't use my pen anymore , so will be p just ordinary keyboard . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: user interface: uh , may be better , yeah . marketing: keyboard work . yeah . project manager: i think it will will be more uh easy for you to read the minutes . user interface: yeah . marketing: alright . industrial designer: okay , when we talk about uh components design , um it 's really about the material and the and uh uh really the stuff we build uh the remote controls of . um , a remote control consist of uh components and the components of a remote control consist of uh properties and material . we have to choose th uh these uh wisely and it could affect uh uh a kind of grow of in uh in buying uh the remote controls . um , the components of a remote control are of course uh the case . uh the properties of the case , um it has to be solid uh in hard material like uh hard plastic uh with soft rubber for uh falling and and uh uh yeah , it feels uh good in your hand . marketing: industrial designer: mm the buttons has to be uh solid too , and the material is soft rubber . uh i 've got a uh email from the possibilities of real reaction . um uh they 're telling me that um when we build uh a remote control of um of plastic or rubber , the uh buttons have to be uh rubber too . mm it 's okay . yeah . i when we use a rubbled a doubled curved case , we must use a rubber push-buttons to uh the the rubber double-curved case is a is a t uh three-dimensional uh curve in the in the design , which is uh necessary when we want to be trendy . uh um user interface: oh . industrial designer: the energy source , uh i 've got a lot of possibilities for that too . um , uh the basic battery , which i thi prefer because of its uh its non uh non-depending of of of uh um uh here you have to have a hand uh yeah , kinetic uh energy . also in uh this one , like in the watches , but a remote control can lie on a table for a day , and then you push uh a button and so you do n't have to uh walk with it all the all the time . mm , solar cells are also uh a bit weird for uh remote controls . marketing: project manager: industrial designer: um uh also the case material , uh i think that plastic is the is the best with rubber , because uh wood or titanium would also be a bit weird . user interface: oh titanium is probably trendy , i think . . marketing: that 's true , i guess . yeah . user interface: well , maybe a little bit expensive . marketing: user interface: i do n't know . industrial designer: uh , they do n't tell anything about the cost of uh titanium . marketing: huh . industrial designer: um the chip uh the chip set uh and the board is uh all off the shelf . also , the speaker in the remote control , when we want to retrieve it . um , the base station is also off the shelf , all the materials and the components are uh just available in uh in our uh factory . mm , i 've told about uh the three first points . mm , the simple electronical chip uh is is available uh with the led transmitter uh transmitter . uh , it 's all uh off the shelf and even the speaker and the wireless retriever are all uh available in our company . um , another possibility . i uh yeah , i looked up on was uh the lcd displays . could be uh something special to our uh remote control , and it 's possible , but it only cost a bit more , but maybe it can be uh within the limits of twenty five euros . project manager: twelve and a half . actually industrial designer: ah yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , production cost . industrial designer: i th i got an email with uh some examples and it these were were the most trendiest one . user interface: industrial designer: you see uh a covers , which can be project manager: what are those , t tooth uh brushes , or so user interface: industrial designer: um , i do n't know . um marketing: project manager: but it 's actually kind of uh user interface: i project manager: well , it resembles the design i had in mind for this proj industrial designer: yes . project manager: you know the the cartoonish alessi kind of design . marketing: yep . industrial designer: yes , maybe we can uh bri uh bring a couple of uh couple of types of uh project manager: and we can we can steal their ideas . marketing: industrial designer: maybe a kind of uh whole uh um a whole set of uh different uh remote controls . project manager: huh . industrial designer: maybe we can bring a whole line uh with uh with a huge variety of uh project manager: well , it 's a possibility , too . industrial designer: uh house uh stuff . user interface: different colours also . industrial designer: like uh maybe radios and uh television also uh in this in this in the same style , but project manager: uh-uh . marketing: yeah , that 'll be for the future , i guess . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: next time we 're here . industrial designer: yes , because we have to uh we have to we have to bring the logo and all the stuff uh back into it . marketing: yeah . project manager: oh , okay . marketing: yeah . definitely . project manager: okay . user interface: okay . industrial designer: thank you . marketing: alright . user interface: uh marketing: yeah . that 's okay . user interface: ah . marketing: user interface: well , i shall go to the next slide . um marketing: user interface: um , i still do n't have any information about user requirements . marketing: user interface: i was thinking about just uh the basic functions and i got uh project manager: oh , we decided upon that in the last meeting . did n't we ? user interface: yeah , but but then wh i do n't know when there are new user requirements . project manager: oh , okay . well , tha i did n't receive any new requirements or somethi user interface: i ha i ha i have the i have project manager: just user interface: nothing . project manager: no , but we decided to use only b basic functions only . user interface: well , i have here a couple of basic functions i could think of . project manager: okay . user interface: i dunno if they 're maybe a little bit more , but project manager: well we maybe we can think of that later . w just user interface: yeah . project manager: these are the ones you already summed up in the user interface: yeah , i i uh well , i pointed them out here , just to make it a little bit easier . project manager: okay . user interface: um another function uh is of course we already discuss it on the side . um , i do n't know what costs of it . uh , i 've no idea about it . uh , i was also looking for what you said , for i got an email uh uh about uh lcd in in in front of the remote control . i do n't know if that 's a good idea , or maybe it 's a little bit too much for twelve and a half . production . project manager: yeah . user interface: if we got already uh something like a base . industrial designer: uh-huh . project manager: that might get redundant also maybe . i do n't know what kind of information it would user interface: yeah , i do n't know . i d i uh ju i was just thinking about it . then i got a pop-ups to go to the meeting . but marketing: mm yeah . project manager: yeah . yeah , it 's okay . industrial designer: maybe we can bring t uh uh teletext to the t to the remote control . user interface: the remote control . marketing: then you project manager: user interface: a little uh too a little bit marketing: and then you 've got a flag s very big r_c_ . yeah . project manager: okay . that 's not it was not a good idea . user interface: a little bit too big , i think . exactly . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: okay . user interface: um , yeah . well , the functions are are not more to discuss , i think . project manager: no . no . user interface: it 's it 's just the base things we already discussed that the no v_c_r_ or that kind of marketing: no . user interface: uh , so that 's very easy . um project manager: but you do mention the next and previous uh button . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: user interface: well , that 's next channel . i mean next channel . marketing: next channel , previous channel . project manager: oh , okay , o okay okay . user interface: uh um oh , i i got an email with with an uh a remote control with a base . project manager: huh . user interface: so , it 's uh just an idea . and i um uh thinked of the button sizes and i 'm not sure uh if they have to be big or uh just small industrial designer: but you 're the expert . marketing: i think it depends on the function . user interface: well , i 'm not a e i 'm the expert for user-friendly , but not for trendiness . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: maybe it marketing: well , if you save uh perhaps uh s tiny buttons are n't user-friendly , then we would n't im implement that of course . project manager: user interface: well uh industrial designer: marketing: user interface: okay , that 's your point . um , yeah . yeah , okay . marketing: user interface: yeah , i 've nothing to s industrial designer: project manager: well , w when we only use basic functions , we have the possibility to make the buttons larger . marketing: oh , that 's right . user interface: uh , with a little bit larger , yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: i thought so , but maybe with the project manager: well , i think we already agreed upon the fact that the the the skip buttons and the cha and the volume buttons , th th those two have yeah , they have to be large . user interface: yeah , that groups . project manager: uh , i mean th th the the two two basic buttons , you know , the to skip channels and to uh user interface: large ? yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: i think yeah , i do n't know why , but i think that is that 's t trendy too , user interface: most the most used uh buttons . marketing: those are probably the the th project manager: because that 's the mo it it you know , it 's uh acc acc um accentu uh , how do you say it ? it puts an extra accent on the the on the simplicity of our remotes to j to make these two most basic functions extra big , like t marketing: yes . user interface: true . yeah . marketing: those are probably the b four most most used buttons on the th in the remote control . project manager: yeah . and you want to acc accentuate that , you know . industrial designer: you did the research . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: it 's from your research . marketing: sorry ? yeah , sure . project manager: so user interface: okay . uh , that was all y industrial designer: user interface: uh personal preference i did n't have . project manager: okay . user interface: i did n't had any time left . project manager: no uh , that 's coo it 's cool . industrial designer: marketing: you do n't care . no , sorry . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: yeah . user interface: marketing: oh . go away . user interface: it 's there . marketing: come on . user interface: yeah , click on it . marketing: . user interface: couple time . marketing: oh , great . well , i 've done some research again about trends on the internet . um i 've done some investigation , and uh well i uh got some information from fashion watchers from paris and uh milan . some uh some findings the most important thing is fancy look and feel of the remote control . uh , well , we were going to imply that , so that 's nice . the second important thing is uh innovative technology in the r_c_ . uh , our market really likes really likes that . and uh the third point there in this uh order if of importance , the third point , is a high ease of use . and uh , well , for the idea , i 've put some trends uh for the market of elderly people . industrial designer: marketing: dark colours , simple recognisable shapes . so we probably wo n't do that . user interface: marketing: the younger market likes uh well , the themes of of this year are uh surprisingly fruits and vegetables and spongy material . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: i found this image , which is uh well , it symbolises the idea of fruits and vegetables . i do n't see the spongy part in it . but with a little bit of fancy project manager: well maybe c then we have to do something with sponge bob then . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: exactly . i got some ideas user interface: marketing: uh well , yeah , pictures is n't really good word , but um industrial designer: marketing: some symbols of fruits or vegetables maybe . uh , catchy colours . industrial designer: marketing: fruit is uh yellow , green , red , whatever . user interface: marketing: so , remote controls in in catchy colours . project manager: it does n't stroke with the with the dark colours . marketing: uh , no , we do n't want dark colours . project manager: not the dark colours ? okay . marketing: no , i just put them there to uh , yeah , uh for general idea . project manager: okay . marketing: and uh , the docking st industrial designer: marketing: uh i think the spongy material is is very irritating for the uh remote control itself . but to industrial designer: marketing: yeah , the to implement some spongy thing , maybe we can do it in the in the docking station . at the bottom of the docking station or whatever . and uh , we could bring one line with a dark colour uh to um uh p uh yeah industrial designer: marketing: uh uh v how do you say ? project manager: for diversity or something . uh marketing: yeah , also a bit for elderly people who are a little bit crazy and want maybe want a little younger design but still the dark colour . user interface: well , how uh industrial designer: marketing: i mean it it it reaches a different market uh , but it it it does n't cost really much effort to b to uh bring uh like a black r_c_ on the market or whatever . yes . user interface: but how do we use uh fruits and vegetables in christ 's sake with remote control ? industrial designer: project manager: no , but i i i think that uh our design already resembles so a piece of fruit . marketing: yeah , there 's there 's always a user interface: uh , make it a banana ? project manager: it 's like a pear or something . user interface: marketing: well there there 's always empty space of course on a remote control . i mean i think this part of the r_c_ uh well the upper the upper part or whatever is uh is not not used with buttons , i guess . project manager: no , i do n't think you have to do it like industrial designer: user interface: marketing: so you you can put some fruity things project manager: yeah , but it that does n't have to remind you , you know , like explicitly of s our f of a of a specific piece of fruit , but just , you know , like the the the the round curves . industrial designer: marketing: no , of course not . project manager: and so y i i think this y it already sem resembles uh something like a pear to me or something . marketing: especially i user interface: yeah , but th yeah , but that marketing: yeah , yeah . yeah , exactly . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , but that 's marketing: if we make it little bit greenish . project manager: you do get the idea , eh ? the fruity kind of round user interface: yeah uh uh project manager: 'kay . marketing: a and we could use one of these for the uh w what is it ? project manager: yeah , uh yeah , i do n't know . industrial designer: grapes . marketing: uh industrial designer: project manager: uh , this is a b yeah . marketing: is n't wha whatever . user interface: but d do n't we need a creative artist or something like that to m make it to feel like a a a a vegetable or fruit ? industrial designer: project manager: yeah , yeah . of course we have uh marketing: yeah , sure . project manager: we have a very big uh the s marketing: yeah . well , w we can uh w we can we can produce multiple uh multiple things . industrial designer: for a big team of artists . project manager: of d design team , yeah . user interface: marketing: this is then the uh pear . i do n't know the english word , so forget it . project manager: yeah , but it 's pear , i guess . marketing: and um , maybe , yeah , a b a banana is uh is n not easy for a remote control , but m yeah . industrial designer: but uh but i think we do n't have to make project manager: no . industrial designer: we ca n't make all uh ten designs . we have to make one design i th i i think . project manager: no , but i think it 's it 's already what we were were up to . marketing: mayb maybe two or three . user interface: yeah . project manager: uh , it 's it does n't have to resemble uh what i already said , a specific piece of fruit , but just , you know , like a fruity thing going on . user interface: marketing: yeah . no sure , but but project manager: and it 's it looks fruity to me . user interface: marketing: b but that 's great , and and and what i was project manager: and uh , but i do like the marketing: what what i was saying , the catchy colours project manager: yeah , i do like uh the f uh to the idea of making a a y uh , a catchy colour design and a d because i do i think a dark colour would be nice too . industrial designer: but pictures of fruit , vegetables vegetables marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe it 's too much , you know . user interface: but , we we have to um there have to be the the the the firm colours , our own uh colours has to be in it . marketing: yeah , uh not really . pictures was a was a bad word , but project manager: okay , but what are the this is yellow . marketing: well we c yeah . user interface: yellow , a real reaction . industrial designer: yes , you can put a logo on top of it . project manager: but i do n't think our our company colours are this fashionable . marketing: yeah , sure . user interface: uh , yeah . marketing: maybe we can if if we got our docking station over here . user interface: we uh f industrial designer: yes , it 's really fruity . marketing: i ca n't draw with this thing , but i 'll try . user interface: a yellow do marketing: if this is our docking station , we can make our logo over here . user interface: uh , yeah . marketing: it does n't work . and then user interface: yeah , and the button then . industrial designer: with a strawberry on top . project manager: yeah , on uh n uh on the bottom of the remote you can do marketing: well , the button button over here or whatever , user interface: okay , yeah . marketing: i do n't know . on the front , of course , because else you ca n't find it . user interface: okay . marketing: well , that were my ideas a little bit . project manager: okay . marketing: i 'll close 'em down . um , go away . project manager: okay , you can you open the conceptual design presentation ? marketing: conceptual design , yes . project manager: see what was on the agenda . user interface: lazy . marketing: the agenda . project manager: this is his own remote . because um , maybe we can start with the technical uh functions , user interface: yeah . project manager: but i do n't think it 's there uh , yeah um , do we want to um use an lcd display , for example ? marketing: well , it 's nice , of course . but i do n't i do n't know what to display on it . industrial designer: only if we project manager: me neither . industrial designer: maybe maybe we can make a tv guide on it , for the channel you 're on . marketing: i mean project manager: yeah , but it 's so marketing: yeah , but it should be li like this big , and i do n't think industrial designer: no , no , only the tv channel with the with uh with uh four programmes . project manager: i do n't think we should do it . industrial designer: you can uh zap through them with the page up page down button . marketing: yes sure , but it it has to to show an entire title of a programme or at least a q a quite quite large part of it and then you get a very large lcd screen , because industrial designer: yes , it can on your no , on your mobile phone you can y you can read text also . so why not on your remote ? project manager: yeah , but no . i do i think it 's a bit redundant , actually . marketing: yeah , i do n't know . project manager: and it 's also not i do n't th even think it it looks s like sexy or something , user interface: well well what would you display on it then ? project manager: it 's industrial designer: uh , programme uh information or or or or g or a guide marketing: programme information . user interface: but is it is n't that a already on tv , a lot of new tvs ? marketing: but industrial designer: on t on teletext , yes . also on the internet . marketing: well a lot a lot of tvs indeed show uh when you uh zap to a industrial designer: but project manager: but you 're already watching the tv , you 're not gon na watch your remote control . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes , but you also want to know what 's next . marketing: but then we also uh w need to bring out a line of tvs which we were planning to , user interface: yeah , project manager: user interface: and we also have to yeah . marketing: but whatever . because the tv has to send information back to the r_c_ , and i do n't know if that 's possible . industrial designer: yes , that 's uh really possible . project manager: marketing: yes , yes , o of course it 's possible , user interface: marketing: but you got ta uh implement it in the tvs , and i do n't think everyone 's gon na buy a real reaction tv within a month after the release of our uh remote control . industrial designer: project manager: i really understand you want to make your job more exciting by putting an lcd in it , user interface: and i also industrial designer: user interface: marketing: project manager: but i i really do n't think it 's a good n goo because it also does n't stroke with we wanted uh c when we talk about the materials , uh it 's a good idea to use these plastic materials with soft rubber stuff on it . it was our idea , you know , to give it a more sturdy look and that you ca like you can throw with it . marketing: yeah . project manager: but i do n't think a lcd display fits in that image . you know , it 's like more vulnerable , and it adds nothing really , you know . marketing: that 's true , that 's true , it breaks f yeah , it it it 's not very solid , it 's uh frag fragile . project manager: yeah , yeah . you could make it , but it 's just it it does n't i do n't think it it 's coherent with the design we 're after . marketing: no . no . i do n't think so ei either . project manager: but that 's my opinion . well , you you y okay , we can vote for it . you want the lcd display . i do n't want to and he does n't , so it 's up to him . industrial designer: no . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: if we wan na user interface: yeah , i dunno . marketing: . ah . industrial designer: project manager: and i 've read somewhere that i 've got some kind of veto veto uh rights . user interface: . oh , okay . industrial designer: marketing: bastard . project manager: so i can also say user interface: we can you away . project manager: but did we skip the yeah , you could do marketing: project manager: m but what what i so what i but do you think we should user interface: yeah , i do n't know . uh , uh i i if it 's it 's a simple p project manager: we 're not even sure what what information we want to display on it . so user interface: no , that that 's right , industrial designer: no uh um user interface: and uh i also have to think about new functions , maybe buttons or something like that to control it . kind of lcd or something or industrial designer: y yes , you can use uh buttons uh uh w that are already uh on the remote control for double functions . marketing: yeah , i guess . user interface: but how does it display then ? w when i go to the second channel , what what does it show me ? industrial designer: uh , then you push a button . the title and the information about the programme . user interface: about that programme ? industrial designer: but but uh yeah , what he said was right , about the televisions , they have to be uh customised to the project manager: nah , that 's not gon na work . industrial designer: but maybe in future it will be a giant hit , and when you are the first marketing: no . project manager: yeah . oh , well uh i 've seen it done before . industrial designer: you have the biggest uh project manager: do you know th like the the bigger rem uh universal remotes , they have d lcd displays , user interface: yeah . project manager: but then it 's very functional to indicate which what uh uh device you are controlling . so it 's that that 's what i 've seen . industrial designer: yes , you can put uh a little lcd display on it with uh with lots of information . marketing: yeah , that 's true , if you uh yeah . project manager: but it just it j it does n't does n't match with the our whole basic concept . industrial designer: but uh i have n't thought about it . but whe but when you put a a a transparent uh plastic uh uh screen on top of it , it i it is n't vulnerable . project manager: well yeah , yeah , okay . that 's maybe not the most important , industrial designer: you can throw with it and project manager: but it 's just user interface: is it fashion ? project manager: i do n't think so . industrial designer: when when you put uh maybe a colour lcd t uh screen on it , it 's very special and very trendy to have uh a remote control from user interface: i do n't know . that 's not up to you . that 's up to market if i if it 's trendy . project manager: yeah , well do you ha do you have to you have n't looked after the trendiness of lcd displays , have you ? marketing: no . industrial designer: user interface: because our our motto is we put fashion marketing: well , i think it 's uh i think it 's pretty trendy , to be honest , uh but um i do n't know if if if well , i 'm coming back to the costs again , but i think uh we got ta build a b pretty cheap design to to stay within our limits . and i think uh especially colour lcd , which is indeed pretty trendy . but i do n't think uh , i think it will be too expensive . industrial designer: but uh i 've got a the email with uh with the possibilities . and lcd was a possibility for the remote control . project manager: user interface: project manager: yeah yeah yeah . industrial designer: so why do n't we use it . project manager: yeah , but we 're gon na if it marketing: uh , did it say a price also uh for for uh monogramme uh lcd or uh coloured lcd ? user interface: yeah , if you want to be trendy you have to be coloured . coloured marketing: yeah really , user interface: if you have black and white or something , or grey , that 's marketing: if y if you c i project manager: then uh then you better do n't yeah , d marketing: i in in two thousand and four you ca n't uh put something on the market which is a monogramme . project manager: user interface: marketing: really . industrial designer: no , but it does n't sa say anything about a colour or but , mm , i alf i also got a possibility to put uh a scroll button on it . but project manager: uh uh i really do n't feel the whole idea of an lcd display . industrial designer: i did n't think that marketing: project manager: i 'm sorry . it ca n't co you can not convince me . i do n't know how well how to with you guys , but i do n't really feel it . we already we 're uh user interface: it 's too much uh maybe uh with with the lcd and the docking station and project manager: yeah , we already have the the th th th base station gadgets , marketing: yeah . project manager: and want and it uh uh , do it has to be a simple design , which sturdy , which soft industrial designer: yes , but o on the marketing: w we 've we 've got ta find a balance , of course . user interface: with one thing special . marketing: and i think user interface: not a whole package of specialty . project manager: i do n't think i j uh , and really , i do n't see how the the lcd display is gon na add anything , you know , on a design level . uh , i think it 's slicker to have no l_ ceds . industrial designer: no , when y project manager: y we want to it 's simplicity , w you have two big buttons and you can do whatever you want with these two buttons , so you do n't need an lcd . industrial designer: but it look yes , but that remote controls are already on the market . the simple project manager: it does n't fit in our philosophy uh behind the whole remote . industrial designer: yes , but but when you want to have something special project manager: yeah , but we already have the docking station , which is industrial designer: yes , but you had a picture of it from another company . user interface: and uh the marketing: we have a pear . project manager: it has to be developed , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: but no , but it that 's industrial designer: project manager: that 's our that 's our killer feature . user interface: it 's just an it 's just an idea . marketing: project manager: that 's our what makes it special . user interface: it 's a it 's industrial designer: yes , it was already made . tha the remote control on the docking station . project manager: yeah , we 're gon na develop our own r n docking station . user interface: true . marketing: is that so ? was it it was n't just a prototype ? user interface: well uh i uh industrial designer: yes , he have a picture of it . project manager: user interface: yeah , i dunno . industrial designer: marketing: exactly , i 've never seen it in a store . project manager: uh , but re we really have to cut this off , user interface: project manager: i re i know you i i i i i get the idea you really like it , you know , the the lcd thing , but i i think it 's it 's not a good idea , and we have already mentioned all the arguments . i do n't uh , do you guys agre how do you guys think ? i d user interface: no , it 's too much . marketing: i think it 's a little too much , yeah . user interface: it 's overdone . project manager: okay , we s skip the lcd display . user interface: industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: i 'm sorry , maybe you can do something if we are at your own place , or make it make it make it happen in your basement or something . user interface: democratically . industrial designer: marketing: no . user interface: industrial designer: mayb marketing: . project manager: but industrial designer: i will rule the world with it . project manager: probably so . marketing: yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . project manager: okay . but for the technical part . the m material , i think uh it was a good idea to use the plastic and uh the rubber . uh industrial designer: yes , maybe a bit of a cushion is project manager: yeah yeah yeah , p exactly . this is what it w yeah , but it it was already what we 're uh we 're after , you know , to give it uh , you know , the soft touch in your hands marketing: yeah , for the spongy uh feel . yeah . industrial designer: yes . user interface: with a spongy bob feel . project manager: and also to , know , like user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , that is y the b airbag kind of thing . industrial designer: like a b yes . project manager: you can st throw it at your little brother 's head . user interface: yeah , you just can drop it . yeah . marketing: yeah , airbag . if you drop it if you drop it the airbag comes out , yeah . project manager: yeah . no no no , not that comfy . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: maybe it marketing: industrial designer: but then we have to look that it uh w uh will not um be too childish to see . project manager: yeah yeah . yeah . okay , that 's a that 's a good point . and that 's why i like the dark t col dark colour bit , you know , because it may be the design uh , it 's uh maybe it is a bit of the marketing: yeah . user interface: but not black i think . project manager: it 's a bit nineties maybe , what we 're what we 're up to rat fun to this point . marketing: no . user interface: well if if it 's fruit and vegetables , it have to be colourful . project manager: yeah , that 's that 's true , but but it has to be a little big solid . marketing: yeah , b yeah , that 's what w i i was pointing at . user interface: but can we ge uh uh project manager: it must n't be too , n you know , th too overwhelming , then when you put it on your just user interface: can we combine it or something ? uh with uh yellow and black ? project manager: yeah . yeah , maybe so . user interface: make it a bee ? a bee . marketing: what ? oh , a bee . oh . project manager: no , uh i do n't like the yellow and black combination . but it is our company colours . apparently . user interface: yeah , it 's our yeah . we we have to use yellow . industrial designer: yes , real real good colours . project manager: marketing: yeah . hmm . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: i do n't like yellow , and uh maybe i do n't know . marketing: well , we can as as i industrial designer: but that 's not really fruity . marketing: draw really nicely over there . we can put the logo on our uh on our base station . uh , yeah . and maybe very very tiny on the remote control itself . project manager: but marketing: but , i project manager: okay , but what uh , what are other tef technical things we have to discuss ? user interface: project manager: industrial designer: uh fronts of the we can have uh different uh uh fronts of the project manager: should we do that ? industrial designer: telephone . project manager: i do n't think you we should do that . maybe just bring it out in different colours , user interface: different fronts . project manager: but not af that you can switch fronts afterwards , that 's also too much . marketing: yeah . i guess that 's that 's enough . project manager: people do n't wan na spend more money on their remote control , i guess . marketing: that 's way too nokia . user interface: yeah . uh , you can you can l uh let choose the customer which colour he wants , yeah . industrial designer: are these designs ? project manager: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah , definitely . just bring more designs on the market . user interface: yeah , three three or four uh four uh colours , or something like that . project manager: but uh , without gon uh marketing: why not , yeah . project manager: okay . so , are we through the technical part then ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: okay . so we uh agreed upon uh n uh well , not u unanimously or how you call it , but yeah . user interface: well , yeah , industrial designer: it this a real uh young young and dynamic uh uh styles . user interface: the three to one . that 's project manager: the materials you uh mentioned in your your personal preferences were all were quite okay . industrial designer: yes . project manager: o o only only the last point your user interface: and tita uh titanium , is uh is is it a no ? industrial designer: yes , project manager: no titanium 's not not out of question , i guess . user interface: is it 's just like that , th this titanium . industrial designer: but also w yes , b bu but when we use s soft project manager: but is it possible to use both the the plastic and so uh soft things and t p titanium , as well ? industrial designer: mm marketing: sure . project manager: makes it in a homogeneous uh design . industrial designer: mm . user interface: no , not all , not all of them . industrial designer: but it it then it uh you ca n't throw it it . it will uh make a huge noise or break other stuff project manager: it will it will break other stuff w when it 's plastic , as well . industrial designer: when you throw with uh titanium with your remote control . user interface: industrial designer: no uh , marketing: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: titanium is a bit uh it 's a bit harder . marketing: yeah , that 's true . project manager: no , but uh uh , you should ma yeah . industrial designer: but also on the colours , the young project manager: okay , think of the possibilities and make it in completely titanium . well would it be more trendy ? more chic ? marketing: yeah , i think it i think it does . user interface: uh , i think titanium nowadays is way more often used than plastic . industrial designer: yes , but a titanium remote control , when you 're uh watching tv uh or your hands are a little bit sweaty , and the user interface: in trendy things . marketing: yeah , o on the other hand , if you want to make fruit fruity stuff with uh user interface: yeah . it 's cold in the winter . project manager: yeah , but i i really like the idea of the the the plastic and the big kind of thing . industrial designer: yes . project manager: but the question is i then it 's , you know , is is it fits in our s philosophy to make it uh sturdy and simple and uh , know , like uh user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , that 's true , that 's true . industrial designer: sports and gaming . define project manager: when you make it titanium , it becomes more like some kind of gadget you actually do n't need . and when it 's big and plastic , it 's like some fun stuff you can always have around . it 's always fun to have something big and plastic around . user interface: you have that uh m_p_ three player of nike , i saw . marketing: yes . yeah . user interface: is n't that titanium with a little bit of rubber ? industrial designer: yes , it 's w but it is uh plastic . user interface: is n't it is plastic ? well , it 's titanium looking . industrial designer: yes , w we can do that on the on the marketing: what ? user interface: yeah , he is . here he is . uh , the i do n't know if you know the m_p_ three player of nike . 'kay , uh that that 's very uh with rubber , so it 's very marketing: oh , yeah . okay , yeah . project manager: yeah , that 's beautiful . marketing: yeah , i see . industrial designer: we can make this as a style too . marketing: yeah , but but but user interface: rough . industrial designer: uh , this is uh just a project manager: oh , maybe th maybe this is an marketing: yeah , i th i think that 's difficult , because uh that 's different material , and then you got ta have like uh uh uh two material lines of of of industrial designer: no , we c we can make it from the same kind of plastic . marketing: yeah , if it 's just a colour uh which you uh which you change then , i guess it 's it 's nice to have one of these . project manager: no , i do like the idea of maybe a t titanium kind type of body w and then with s plastic colouration around it . industrial designer: uh marketing: uh project manager: you know , like the the soft stuff , marketing: yeah . project manager: but i do n't know if it 's possible . industrial designer: i do n't have the information . uh , i i did n't got it project manager: but you ca n't make the plastic give uh the ti titanium look . user interface: true . industrial designer: yes . project manager: but make it just like shiny . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah yeah , true . project manager: maybe we should uh shou industrial designer: like the m_p_ three player . user interface: yeah , maybe that 's good idea , yeah . but if you want to la uh yeah , last longer than two weeks or something like that , you can maybe marketing: yeah . project manager: and uh and marketing: project manager: maybe we sh should we t i do n't know if we should talk about uh , how how much time have we got left ? industrial designer: uh , in a lot of other uh user interface: i do n't know . project manager: forty minutes . user interface: what time does industrial designer: in a lot of other product uh categories like uh even in b in bags industry . uh , they began with uh t typical uh leather bags , but then they became stylish , with all all si all sort of colours , and w kind of fon of uh of fronts , like we can use on the telephone and it marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: like eastpack uh began a revolution with it with all this uh kind of bags and and colours and and project manager: you putting in different colours . industrial designer: yes , and and styles . project manager: okay . industrial designer: they have uh also uh a kind of uh um uh roses on it , a and uh marketing: uh yeah , yeah . project manager: okay . yeah , but w yeah . user interface: project manager: well , it is . it 's a possibility . but , let 's think about the bas industrial designer: then we can always uh use the same design for a greater resemblance , but with new uh with new colours , new marketing: yes . new prints on it . yep . project manager: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . industrial designer: yes . project manager: but wha th our basic idea y i mean , you gon na we 're probably gon na have like two type of materials , like the d d b the plastic uh enclosure and then the the pads that surround it . and and pro and lights . we have to incorporate the lights too . but , uh do w gon na gon na are we going to give it a two-tone colour look , like the the plastic mould is in in one colour and the s the cushion pads around it are in another colour ? is that the idea ? is that a good idea ? marketing: how do you mean ? th th the uh base in a in another project manager: how many colours are we how many colours are we gon na we 're uh uh f uh f user interface: the rubber . project manager: only five minutes left , by the way . how many colours are we gon na give it ? marketing: yes . project manager: like two-tone colour ? t industrial designer: there there are three uh components three components type . user interface: yeah . uh no , not too much i think . industrial designer: you have the buttons , the the case uh itself , and the rubber and th marketing: how the buttons yeah . project manager: i think maybe the case itself should be in one colour and then the rubber of the buttons , and the cushions as well should be in another colour . industrial designer: yes . user interface: or you just make uh one colour , uh maybe with a a z a kind of like a big wave or something like uh marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , but not more than user interface: in in another colour . project manager: well , yeah , it 's user interface: not more than two colours i think . project manager: no . user interface: it 's a g a little bit too flashy . marketing: no , definitely not . project manager: maybe we should talk about it on a l in a later meeting . industrial designer: yeah , or or when you use the buttons as black , it you can use two colours as well uh marketing: yes , definitely . project manager: okay . but we have to uh think of some other uh important things . industrial designer: project manager: uh oh yeah , the the functionalities of the the buttons . user interface: the funct yeah , i was i was thinking about th the st do we still want a joystick idea . project manager: no . marketing: no , i think that 's too vulnerable . project manager: i think this is okay , user interface: yeah . project manager: the so we have the basic . then we have the numbers . we have the power button . we have we have a teletext button . user interface: the volume , teletext and project manager: and maybe want to access a a menu or something . most tvs have a menu . marketing: yeah , but that 's that 's i was thinking that 's got ta be on the television . user interface: project manager: yeah , but i think you ha i really need a menu button . user interface: yeah yeah yeah yeah , b project manager: that 's just i the only button only user interface: yeah , but wha what kind of menu ? project manager: you know , i user interface: is uh is n't that different from every television ? project manager: no , i think most tvs have an uh a menu nowadays to access the uh uh screen settings . and so marketing: mm . yeah , if it 's c if yeah , i think it 's okay to to add a menu button for uh user interface: project manager: but that that covers all the all the other settings . it covers everything then . marketing: and if the tv does n't have a menu , then industrial designer: but then you have to put uh up and down and uh left and right marketing: yeah . project manager: no , you can use the marketing: yeah , you can put that on the two eight four and six or whatever . project manager: and you al can also use the normal skip buttons for that . industrial designer: okay . project manager: th in that way we have like only the numbers , the power button , skip and volume , and then uh uh ten uh rem marketing: mm , yeah . a mute and a teletext and a menu . project manager: uh yeah , mute . a teletext and a menu , and then then i that 's it . user interface: mute . project manager: it 's all we need . marketing: that 's all . user interface: yeah . marketing: hmm . project manager: okay , uh another stuf some stuff about the the the design of the docking station . marketing: great . yeah . user interface: okay , that 's not mu not much functions . so project manager: something important about a s uh , no , uh which sh uh should remind us of the remote itself , i guess . marketing: yeah , definitely . project manager: uh , in one colour . marketing: are we gon na do something with the uh spongy thing there ? project manager: just use i think the spongy thing already um comes forward in the in the in the cushions , pads and things on the s uh side . industrial designer: uh marketing: yeah , that 's true , that 's true . project manager: and we will make it spongy and and uh and uh well , the fruity thing is just the shape should be fru i did i think this is kind of fruity , you know . just round shapes with uh user interface: marketing: yeah , it 's kinda fruity , and with th with catchy colours uh uh w project manager: yeah , but we 're gon na have to we really have to think i think colours is very important , because it has to be flashy , but and but it d it does n't have to be annoying , that when you uh , know , some things is just over the top , and when you have it on your table for more than two weeks , you it just gets annoying , because it 's so big and flashy . marketing: yeah , definitely . project manager: uh , it has to be some level of subtlety , but we have to still have to think of how we manage to uh to get to that . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . guess we 're through then . marketing: okay . user interface: okay . marketing: i guess so . project manager: but we i think also we just so we have to do something with colour but also , i i think we have to keep the dark colour thing in mind . i think that 's uh adds to the user interface: yeah . marketing: yes . project manager: too much colour maybe m um user interface: too much colour , i it uh when you got it in a living room , it 's too much maybe project manager: but our des design experts will uh work that out . marketing: yea yeah . user interface: . it has to be project manager: okay , well i think the meeting will be over within a minute . user interface: yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: so we will wrap up . marketing: something like that . project manager: or is there anything we 'd like to discuss ? that 's right . marketing: i guess not . project manager: okay . marketing: do you , guys ? user interface: no . marketing: no ? project manager: okay . well , you will read the minutes uh in the you can find them in the user interface: oh , okay , yeah . marketing: in the shared folder . project manager: pro probably . yeah uh no , for su for sure because i 'm will now type them out . industrial designer: what are we going to do now ? project manager: uh , y yeah . marketing: you 'll see in you email , i guess . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think uh industrial designer: marketing: yeah , i do n't know . i do n't know . user interface: i hope so . and the other thing is that you do n't have kind of prototype or something like that . you see a kinda prototype you can a little bit more uh industrial designer: i will make one in the next uh twenty minutes . user interface: yeah . marketing: construct one , yeah . project manager: but toilet paper roll and uh user interface: with you laptop ? yeah . marketing: project manager: okay . user interface: oh my god . marketing: alright , shall we get back to work ? project manager: yep . i was waiting for the l last message , but marketing: great . user interface: well you are . we 're not . marketing: yeah . bastard . user interface: industrial designer: back to the pen . project manager: mm yeah . marketing: you lazy industrial designer: { vocalsound }

project manager thought titanium was considerable and mentioned several possibilities , such as the complete titanium design that was trendy . user interface disagreed , pointing out that titanium was used even more than plastic . other shortages considered included making users ' hands a bit sweaty and becoming quite cold in winter .

what was the decision of the functionalities of buttons ? </s> project manager: okay , all set ? welcome to the conceptual design meeting . user interface: uh , okay . industrial designer: yes . project manager: the agenda . the opening . i 'll again be the secretary and make minutes , take minutes , uh and it will be three presentations , just like the last meeting . so um , who wants to start off ? technical uh designer again ? user interface: again . project manager: okay . user interface: hmm . project manager: uh , yeah . uh , before we begin it , i want to say i 've i 've put the minutes of the uh second meeting in the shared folder , but they 're still not uh quite okay . it uh it uh still some technical difficulties so the the first part of the minutes are very hard to read , because there are two documents that uh were layered over each other . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: project manager: so marketing: okay . project manager: but uh , from now on i wo n't use my pen anymore , so will be p just ordinary keyboard . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: user interface: uh , may be better , yeah . marketing: keyboard work . yeah . project manager: i think it will will be more uh easy for you to read the minutes . user interface: yeah . marketing: alright . industrial designer: okay , when we talk about uh components design , um it 's really about the material and the and uh uh really the stuff we build uh the remote controls of . um , a remote control consist of uh components and the components of a remote control consist of uh properties and material . we have to choose th uh these uh wisely and it could affect uh uh a kind of grow of in uh in buying uh the remote controls . um , the components of a remote control are of course uh the case . uh the properties of the case , um it has to be solid uh in hard material like uh hard plastic uh with soft rubber for uh falling and and uh uh yeah , it feels uh good in your hand . marketing: industrial designer: mm the buttons has to be uh solid too , and the material is soft rubber . uh i 've got a uh email from the possibilities of real reaction . um uh they 're telling me that um when we build uh a remote control of um of plastic or rubber , the uh buttons have to be uh rubber too . mm it 's okay . yeah . i when we use a rubbled a doubled curved case , we must use a rubber push-buttons to uh the the rubber double-curved case is a is a t uh three-dimensional uh curve in the in the design , which is uh necessary when we want to be trendy . uh um user interface: oh . industrial designer: the energy source , uh i 've got a lot of possibilities for that too . um , uh the basic battery , which i thi prefer because of its uh its non uh non-depending of of of uh um uh here you have to have a hand uh yeah , kinetic uh energy . also in uh this one , like in the watches , but a remote control can lie on a table for a day , and then you push uh a button and so you do n't have to uh walk with it all the all the time . mm , solar cells are also uh a bit weird for uh remote controls . marketing: project manager: industrial designer: um uh also the case material , uh i think that plastic is the is the best with rubber , because uh wood or titanium would also be a bit weird . user interface: oh titanium is probably trendy , i think . . marketing: that 's true , i guess . yeah . user interface: well , maybe a little bit expensive . marketing: user interface: i do n't know . industrial designer: uh , they do n't tell anything about the cost of uh titanium . marketing: huh . industrial designer: um the chip uh the chip set uh and the board is uh all off the shelf . also , the speaker in the remote control , when we want to retrieve it . um , the base station is also off the shelf , all the materials and the components are uh just available in uh in our uh factory . mm , i 've told about uh the three first points . mm , the simple electronical chip uh is is available uh with the led transmitter uh transmitter . uh , it 's all uh off the shelf and even the speaker and the wireless retriever are all uh available in our company . um , another possibility . i uh yeah , i looked up on was uh the lcd displays . could be uh something special to our uh remote control , and it 's possible , but it only cost a bit more , but maybe it can be uh within the limits of twenty five euros . project manager: twelve and a half . actually industrial designer: ah yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , production cost . industrial designer: i th i got an email with uh some examples and it these were were the most trendiest one . user interface: industrial designer: you see uh a covers , which can be project manager: what are those , t tooth uh brushes , or so user interface: industrial designer: um , i do n't know . um marketing: project manager: but it 's actually kind of uh user interface: i project manager: well , it resembles the design i had in mind for this proj industrial designer: yes . project manager: you know the the cartoonish alessi kind of design . marketing: yep . industrial designer: yes , maybe we can uh bri uh bring a couple of uh couple of types of uh project manager: and we can we can steal their ideas . marketing: industrial designer: maybe a kind of uh whole uh um a whole set of uh different uh remote controls . project manager: huh . industrial designer: maybe we can bring a whole line uh with uh with a huge variety of uh project manager: well , it 's a possibility , too . industrial designer: uh house uh stuff . user interface: different colours also . industrial designer: like uh maybe radios and uh television also uh in this in this in the same style , but project manager: uh-uh . marketing: yeah , that 'll be for the future , i guess . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: next time we 're here . industrial designer: yes , because we have to uh we have to we have to bring the logo and all the stuff uh back into it . marketing: yeah . project manager: oh , okay . marketing: yeah . definitely . project manager: okay . user interface: okay . industrial designer: thank you . marketing: alright . user interface: uh marketing: yeah . that 's okay . user interface: ah . marketing: user interface: well , i shall go to the next slide . um marketing: user interface: um , i still do n't have any information about user requirements . marketing: user interface: i was thinking about just uh the basic functions and i got uh project manager: oh , we decided upon that in the last meeting . did n't we ? user interface: yeah , but but then wh i do n't know when there are new user requirements . project manager: oh , okay . well , tha i did n't receive any new requirements or somethi user interface: i ha i ha i have the i have project manager: just user interface: nothing . project manager: no , but we decided to use only b basic functions only . user interface: well , i have here a couple of basic functions i could think of . project manager: okay . user interface: i dunno if they 're maybe a little bit more , but project manager: well we maybe we can think of that later . w just user interface: yeah . project manager: these are the ones you already summed up in the user interface: yeah , i i uh well , i pointed them out here , just to make it a little bit easier . project manager: okay . user interface: um another function uh is of course we already discuss it on the side . um , i do n't know what costs of it . uh , i 've no idea about it . uh , i was also looking for what you said , for i got an email uh uh about uh lcd in in in front of the remote control . i do n't know if that 's a good idea , or maybe it 's a little bit too much for twelve and a half . production . project manager: yeah . user interface: if we got already uh something like a base . industrial designer: uh-huh . project manager: that might get redundant also maybe . i do n't know what kind of information it would user interface: yeah , i do n't know . i d i uh ju i was just thinking about it . then i got a pop-ups to go to the meeting . but marketing: mm yeah . project manager: yeah . yeah , it 's okay . industrial designer: maybe we can bring t uh uh teletext to the t to the remote control . user interface: the remote control . marketing: then you project manager: user interface: a little uh too a little bit marketing: and then you 've got a flag s very big r_c_ . yeah . project manager: okay . that 's not it was not a good idea . user interface: a little bit too big , i think . exactly . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: okay . user interface: um , yeah . well , the functions are are not more to discuss , i think . project manager: no . no . user interface: it 's it 's just the base things we already discussed that the no v_c_r_ or that kind of marketing: no . user interface: uh , so that 's very easy . um project manager: but you do mention the next and previous uh button . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: user interface: well , that 's next channel . i mean next channel . marketing: next channel , previous channel . project manager: oh , okay , o okay okay . user interface: uh um oh , i i got an email with with an uh a remote control with a base . project manager: huh . user interface: so , it 's uh just an idea . and i um uh thinked of the button sizes and i 'm not sure uh if they have to be big or uh just small industrial designer: but you 're the expert . marketing: i think it depends on the function . user interface: well , i 'm not a e i 'm the expert for user-friendly , but not for trendiness . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: maybe it marketing: well , if you save uh perhaps uh s tiny buttons are n't user-friendly , then we would n't im implement that of course . project manager: user interface: well uh industrial designer: marketing: user interface: okay , that 's your point . um , yeah . yeah , okay . marketing: user interface: yeah , i 've nothing to s industrial designer: project manager: well , w when we only use basic functions , we have the possibility to make the buttons larger . marketing: oh , that 's right . user interface: uh , with a little bit larger , yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: i thought so , but maybe with the project manager: well , i think we already agreed upon the fact that the the the skip buttons and the cha and the volume buttons , th th those two have yeah , they have to be large . user interface: yeah , that groups . project manager: uh , i mean th th the the two two basic buttons , you know , the to skip channels and to uh user interface: large ? yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: i think yeah , i do n't know why , but i think that is that 's t trendy too , user interface: most the most used uh buttons . marketing: those are probably the the th project manager: because that 's the mo it it you know , it 's uh acc acc um accentu uh , how do you say it ? it puts an extra accent on the the on the simplicity of our remotes to j to make these two most basic functions extra big , like t marketing: yes . user interface: true . yeah . marketing: those are probably the b four most most used buttons on the th in the remote control . project manager: yeah . and you want to acc accentuate that , you know . industrial designer: you did the research . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: it 's from your research . marketing: sorry ? yeah , sure . project manager: so user interface: okay . uh , that was all y industrial designer: user interface: uh personal preference i did n't have . project manager: okay . user interface: i did n't had any time left . project manager: no uh , that 's coo it 's cool . industrial designer: marketing: you do n't care . no , sorry . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: yeah . user interface: marketing: oh . go away . user interface: it 's there . marketing: come on . user interface: yeah , click on it . marketing: . user interface: couple time . marketing: oh , great . well , i 've done some research again about trends on the internet . um i 've done some investigation , and uh well i uh got some information from fashion watchers from paris and uh milan . some uh some findings the most important thing is fancy look and feel of the remote control . uh , well , we were going to imply that , so that 's nice . the second important thing is uh innovative technology in the r_c_ . uh , our market really likes really likes that . and uh the third point there in this uh order if of importance , the third point , is a high ease of use . and uh , well , for the idea , i 've put some trends uh for the market of elderly people . industrial designer: marketing: dark colours , simple recognisable shapes . so we probably wo n't do that . user interface: marketing: the younger market likes uh well , the themes of of this year are uh surprisingly fruits and vegetables and spongy material . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: i found this image , which is uh well , it symbolises the idea of fruits and vegetables . i do n't see the spongy part in it . but with a little bit of fancy project manager: well maybe c then we have to do something with sponge bob then . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: exactly . i got some ideas user interface: marketing: uh well , yeah , pictures is n't really good word , but um industrial designer: marketing: some symbols of fruits or vegetables maybe . uh , catchy colours . industrial designer: marketing: fruit is uh yellow , green , red , whatever . user interface: marketing: so , remote controls in in catchy colours . project manager: it does n't stroke with the with the dark colours . marketing: uh , no , we do n't want dark colours . project manager: not the dark colours ? okay . marketing: no , i just put them there to uh , yeah , uh for general idea . project manager: okay . marketing: and uh , the docking st industrial designer: marketing: uh i think the spongy material is is very irritating for the uh remote control itself . but to industrial designer: marketing: yeah , the to implement some spongy thing , maybe we can do it in the in the docking station . at the bottom of the docking station or whatever . and uh , we could bring one line with a dark colour uh to um uh p uh yeah industrial designer: marketing: uh uh v how do you say ? project manager: for diversity or something . uh marketing: yeah , also a bit for elderly people who are a little bit crazy and want maybe want a little younger design but still the dark colour . user interface: well , how uh industrial designer: marketing: i mean it it it reaches a different market uh , but it it it does n't cost really much effort to b to uh bring uh like a black r_c_ on the market or whatever . yes . user interface: but how do we use uh fruits and vegetables in christ 's sake with remote control ? industrial designer: project manager: no , but i i i think that uh our design already resembles so a piece of fruit . marketing: yeah , there 's there 's always a user interface: uh , make it a banana ? project manager: it 's like a pear or something . user interface: marketing: well there there 's always empty space of course on a remote control . i mean i think this part of the r_c_ uh well the upper the upper part or whatever is uh is not not used with buttons , i guess . project manager: no , i do n't think you have to do it like industrial designer: user interface: marketing: so you you can put some fruity things project manager: yeah , but it that does n't have to remind you , you know , like explicitly of s our f of a of a specific piece of fruit , but just , you know , like the the the the round curves . industrial designer: marketing: no , of course not . project manager: and so y i i think this y it already sem resembles uh something like a pear to me or something . marketing: especially i user interface: yeah , but th yeah , but that marketing: yeah , yeah . yeah , exactly . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , but that 's marketing: if we make it little bit greenish . project manager: you do get the idea , eh ? the fruity kind of round user interface: yeah uh uh project manager: 'kay . marketing: a and we could use one of these for the uh w what is it ? project manager: yeah , uh yeah , i do n't know . industrial designer: grapes . marketing: uh industrial designer: project manager: uh , this is a b yeah . marketing: is n't wha whatever . user interface: but d do n't we need a creative artist or something like that to m make it to feel like a a a a vegetable or fruit ? industrial designer: project manager: yeah , yeah . of course we have uh marketing: yeah , sure . project manager: we have a very big uh the s marketing: yeah . well , w we can uh w we can we can produce multiple uh multiple things . industrial designer: for a big team of artists . project manager: of d design team , yeah . user interface: marketing: this is then the uh pear . i do n't know the english word , so forget it . project manager: yeah , but it 's pear , i guess . marketing: and um , maybe , yeah , a b a banana is uh is n not easy for a remote control , but m yeah . industrial designer: but uh but i think we do n't have to make project manager: no . industrial designer: we ca n't make all uh ten designs . we have to make one design i th i i think . project manager: no , but i think it 's it 's already what we were were up to . marketing: mayb maybe two or three . user interface: yeah . project manager: uh , it 's it does n't have to resemble uh what i already said , a specific piece of fruit , but just , you know , like a fruity thing going on . user interface: marketing: yeah . no sure , but but project manager: and it 's it looks fruity to me . user interface: marketing: b but that 's great , and and and what i was project manager: and uh , but i do like the marketing: what what i was saying , the catchy colours project manager: yeah , i do like uh the f uh to the idea of making a a y uh , a catchy colour design and a d because i do i think a dark colour would be nice too . industrial designer: but pictures of fruit , vegetables vegetables marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe it 's too much , you know . user interface: but , we we have to um there have to be the the the the firm colours , our own uh colours has to be in it . marketing: yeah , uh not really . pictures was a was a bad word , but project manager: okay , but what are the this is yellow . marketing: well we c yeah . user interface: yellow , a real reaction . industrial designer: yes , you can put a logo on top of it . project manager: but i do n't think our our company colours are this fashionable . marketing: yeah , sure . user interface: uh , yeah . marketing: maybe we can if if we got our docking station over here . user interface: we uh f industrial designer: yes , it 's really fruity . marketing: i ca n't draw with this thing , but i 'll try . user interface: a yellow do marketing: if this is our docking station , we can make our logo over here . user interface: uh , yeah . marketing: it does n't work . and then user interface: yeah , and the button then . industrial designer: with a strawberry on top . project manager: yeah , on uh n uh on the bottom of the remote you can do marketing: well , the button button over here or whatever , user interface: okay , yeah . marketing: i do n't know . on the front , of course , because else you ca n't find it . user interface: okay . marketing: well , that were my ideas a little bit . project manager: okay . marketing: i 'll close 'em down . um , go away . project manager: okay , you can you open the conceptual design presentation ? marketing: conceptual design , yes . project manager: see what was on the agenda . user interface: lazy . marketing: the agenda . project manager: this is his own remote . because um , maybe we can start with the technical uh functions , user interface: yeah . project manager: but i do n't think it 's there uh , yeah um , do we want to um use an lcd display , for example ? marketing: well , it 's nice , of course . but i do n't i do n't know what to display on it . industrial designer: only if we project manager: me neither . industrial designer: maybe maybe we can make a tv guide on it , for the channel you 're on . marketing: i mean project manager: yeah , but it 's so marketing: yeah , but it should be li like this big , and i do n't think industrial designer: no , no , only the tv channel with the with uh with uh four programmes . project manager: i do n't think we should do it . industrial designer: you can uh zap through them with the page up page down button . marketing: yes sure , but it it has to to show an entire title of a programme or at least a q a quite quite large part of it and then you get a very large lcd screen , because industrial designer: yes , it can on your no , on your mobile phone you can y you can read text also . so why not on your remote ? project manager: yeah , but no . i do i think it 's a bit redundant , actually . marketing: yeah , i do n't know . project manager: and it 's also not i do n't th even think it it looks s like sexy or something , user interface: well well what would you display on it then ? project manager: it 's industrial designer: uh , programme uh information or or or or g or a guide marketing: programme information . user interface: but is it is n't that a already on tv , a lot of new tvs ? marketing: but industrial designer: on t on teletext , yes . also on the internet . marketing: well a lot a lot of tvs indeed show uh when you uh zap to a industrial designer: but project manager: but you 're already watching the tv , you 're not gon na watch your remote control . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes , but you also want to know what 's next . marketing: but then we also uh w need to bring out a line of tvs which we were planning to , user interface: yeah , project manager: user interface: and we also have to yeah . marketing: but whatever . because the tv has to send information back to the r_c_ , and i do n't know if that 's possible . industrial designer: yes , that 's uh really possible . project manager: marketing: yes , yes , o of course it 's possible , user interface: marketing: but you got ta uh implement it in the tvs , and i do n't think everyone 's gon na buy a real reaction tv within a month after the release of our uh remote control . industrial designer: project manager: i really understand you want to make your job more exciting by putting an lcd in it , user interface: and i also industrial designer: user interface: marketing: project manager: but i i really do n't think it 's a good n goo because it also does n't stroke with we wanted uh c when we talk about the materials , uh it 's a good idea to use these plastic materials with soft rubber stuff on it . it was our idea , you know , to give it a more sturdy look and that you ca like you can throw with it . marketing: yeah . project manager: but i do n't think a lcd display fits in that image . you know , it 's like more vulnerable , and it adds nothing really , you know . marketing: that 's true , that 's true , it breaks f yeah , it it it 's not very solid , it 's uh frag fragile . project manager: yeah , yeah . you could make it , but it 's just it it does n't i do n't think it it 's coherent with the design we 're after . marketing: no . no . i do n't think so ei either . project manager: but that 's my opinion . well , you you y okay , we can vote for it . you want the lcd display . i do n't want to and he does n't , so it 's up to him . industrial designer: no . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: if we wan na user interface: yeah , i dunno . marketing: . ah . industrial designer: project manager: and i 've read somewhere that i 've got some kind of veto veto uh rights . user interface: . oh , okay . industrial designer: marketing: bastard . project manager: so i can also say user interface: we can you away . project manager: but did we skip the yeah , you could do marketing: project manager: m but what what i so what i but do you think we should user interface: yeah , i do n't know . uh , uh i i if it 's it 's a simple p project manager: we 're not even sure what what information we want to display on it . so user interface: no , that that 's right , industrial designer: no uh um user interface: and uh i also have to think about new functions , maybe buttons or something like that to control it . kind of lcd or something or industrial designer: y yes , you can use uh buttons uh uh w that are already uh on the remote control for double functions . marketing: yeah , i guess . user interface: but how does it display then ? w when i go to the second channel , what what does it show me ? industrial designer: uh , then you push a button . the title and the information about the programme . user interface: about that programme ? industrial designer: but but uh yeah , what he said was right , about the televisions , they have to be uh customised to the project manager: nah , that 's not gon na work . industrial designer: but maybe in future it will be a giant hit , and when you are the first marketing: no . project manager: yeah . oh , well uh i 've seen it done before . industrial designer: you have the biggest uh project manager: do you know th like the the bigger rem uh universal remotes , they have d lcd displays , user interface: yeah . project manager: but then it 's very functional to indicate which what uh uh device you are controlling . so it 's that that 's what i 've seen . industrial designer: yes , you can put uh a little lcd display on it with uh with lots of information . marketing: yeah , that 's true , if you uh yeah . project manager: but it just it j it does n't does n't match with the our whole basic concept . industrial designer: but uh i have n't thought about it . but whe but when you put a a a transparent uh plastic uh uh screen on top of it , it i it is n't vulnerable . project manager: well yeah , yeah , okay . that 's maybe not the most important , industrial designer: you can throw with it and project manager: but it 's just user interface: is it fashion ? project manager: i do n't think so . industrial designer: when when you put uh maybe a colour lcd t uh screen on it , it 's very special and very trendy to have uh a remote control from user interface: i do n't know . that 's not up to you . that 's up to market if i if it 's trendy . project manager: yeah , well do you ha do you have to you have n't looked after the trendiness of lcd displays , have you ? marketing: no . industrial designer: user interface: because our our motto is we put fashion marketing: well , i think it 's uh i think it 's pretty trendy , to be honest , uh but um i do n't know if if if well , i 'm coming back to the costs again , but i think uh we got ta build a b pretty cheap design to to stay within our limits . and i think uh especially colour lcd , which is indeed pretty trendy . but i do n't think uh , i think it will be too expensive . industrial designer: but uh i 've got a the email with uh with the possibilities . and lcd was a possibility for the remote control . project manager: user interface: project manager: yeah yeah yeah . industrial designer: so why do n't we use it . project manager: yeah , but we 're gon na if it marketing: uh , did it say a price also uh for for uh monogramme uh lcd or uh coloured lcd ? user interface: yeah , if you want to be trendy you have to be coloured . coloured marketing: yeah really , user interface: if you have black and white or something , or grey , that 's marketing: if y if you c i project manager: then uh then you better do n't yeah , d marketing: i in in two thousand and four you ca n't uh put something on the market which is a monogramme . project manager: user interface: marketing: really . industrial designer: no , but it does n't sa say anything about a colour or but , mm , i alf i also got a possibility to put uh a scroll button on it . but project manager: uh uh i really do n't feel the whole idea of an lcd display . industrial designer: i did n't think that marketing: project manager: i 'm sorry . it ca n't co you can not convince me . i do n't know how well how to with you guys , but i do n't really feel it . we already we 're uh user interface: it 's too much uh maybe uh with with the lcd and the docking station and project manager: yeah , we already have the the th th th base station gadgets , marketing: yeah . project manager: and want and it uh uh , do it has to be a simple design , which sturdy , which soft industrial designer: yes , but o on the marketing: w we 've we 've got ta find a balance , of course . user interface: with one thing special . marketing: and i think user interface: not a whole package of specialty . project manager: i do n't think i j uh , and really , i do n't see how the the lcd display is gon na add anything , you know , on a design level . uh , i think it 's slicker to have no l_ ceds . industrial designer: no , when y project manager: y we want to it 's simplicity , w you have two big buttons and you can do whatever you want with these two buttons , so you do n't need an lcd . industrial designer: but it look yes , but that remote controls are already on the market . the simple project manager: it does n't fit in our philosophy uh behind the whole remote . industrial designer: yes , but but when you want to have something special project manager: yeah , but we already have the docking station , which is industrial designer: yes , but you had a picture of it from another company . user interface: and uh the marketing: we have a pear . project manager: it has to be developed , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: but no , but it that 's industrial designer: project manager: that 's our that 's our killer feature . user interface: it 's just an it 's just an idea . marketing: project manager: that 's our what makes it special . user interface: it 's a it 's industrial designer: yes , it was already made . tha the remote control on the docking station . project manager: yeah , we 're gon na develop our own r n docking station . user interface: true . marketing: is that so ? was it it was n't just a prototype ? user interface: well uh i uh industrial designer: yes , he have a picture of it . project manager: user interface: yeah , i dunno . industrial designer: marketing: exactly , i 've never seen it in a store . project manager: uh , but re we really have to cut this off , user interface: project manager: i re i know you i i i i i get the idea you really like it , you know , the the lcd thing , but i i think it 's it 's not a good idea , and we have already mentioned all the arguments . i do n't uh , do you guys agre how do you guys think ? i d user interface: no , it 's too much . marketing: i think it 's a little too much , yeah . user interface: it 's overdone . project manager: okay , we s skip the lcd display . user interface: industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: i 'm sorry , maybe you can do something if we are at your own place , or make it make it make it happen in your basement or something . user interface: democratically . industrial designer: marketing: no . user interface: industrial designer: mayb marketing: . project manager: but industrial designer: i will rule the world with it . project manager: probably so . marketing: yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . project manager: okay . but for the technical part . the m material , i think uh it was a good idea to use the plastic and uh the rubber . uh industrial designer: yes , maybe a bit of a cushion is project manager: yeah yeah yeah , p exactly . this is what it w yeah , but it it was already what we 're uh we 're after , you know , to give it uh , you know , the soft touch in your hands marketing: yeah , for the spongy uh feel . yeah . industrial designer: yes . user interface: with a spongy bob feel . project manager: and also to , know , like user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , that is y the b airbag kind of thing . industrial designer: like a b yes . project manager: you can st throw it at your little brother 's head . user interface: yeah , you just can drop it . yeah . marketing: yeah , airbag . if you drop it if you drop it the airbag comes out , yeah . project manager: yeah . no no no , not that comfy . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: maybe it marketing: industrial designer: but then we have to look that it uh w uh will not um be too childish to see . project manager: yeah yeah . yeah . okay , that 's a that 's a good point . and that 's why i like the dark t col dark colour bit , you know , because it may be the design uh , it 's uh maybe it is a bit of the marketing: yeah . user interface: but not black i think . project manager: it 's a bit nineties maybe , what we 're what we 're up to rat fun to this point . marketing: no . user interface: well if if it 's fruit and vegetables , it have to be colourful . project manager: yeah , that 's that 's true , but but it has to be a little big solid . marketing: yeah , b yeah , that 's what w i i was pointing at . user interface: but can we ge uh uh project manager: it must n't be too , n you know , th too overwhelming , then when you put it on your just user interface: can we combine it or something ? uh with uh yellow and black ? project manager: yeah . yeah , maybe so . user interface: make it a bee ? a bee . marketing: what ? oh , a bee . oh . project manager: no , uh i do n't like the yellow and black combination . but it is our company colours . apparently . user interface: yeah , it 's our yeah . we we have to use yellow . industrial designer: yes , real real good colours . project manager: marketing: yeah . hmm . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: i do n't like yellow , and uh maybe i do n't know . marketing: well , we can as as i industrial designer: but that 's not really fruity . marketing: draw really nicely over there . we can put the logo on our uh on our base station . uh , yeah . and maybe very very tiny on the remote control itself . project manager: but marketing: but , i project manager: okay , but what uh , what are other tef technical things we have to discuss ? user interface: project manager: industrial designer: uh fronts of the we can have uh different uh uh fronts of the project manager: should we do that ? industrial designer: telephone . project manager: i do n't think you we should do that . maybe just bring it out in different colours , user interface: different fronts . project manager: but not af that you can switch fronts afterwards , that 's also too much . marketing: yeah . i guess that 's that 's enough . project manager: people do n't wan na spend more money on their remote control , i guess . marketing: that 's way too nokia . user interface: yeah . uh , you can you can l uh let choose the customer which colour he wants , yeah . industrial designer: are these designs ? project manager: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah , definitely . just bring more designs on the market . user interface: yeah , three three or four uh four uh colours , or something like that . project manager: but uh , without gon uh marketing: why not , yeah . project manager: okay . so , are we through the technical part then ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: okay . so we uh agreed upon uh n uh well , not u unanimously or how you call it , but yeah . user interface: well , yeah , industrial designer: it this a real uh young young and dynamic uh uh styles . user interface: the three to one . that 's project manager: the materials you uh mentioned in your your personal preferences were all were quite okay . industrial designer: yes . project manager: o o only only the last point your user interface: and tita uh titanium , is uh is is it a no ? industrial designer: yes , project manager: no titanium 's not not out of question , i guess . user interface: is it 's just like that , th this titanium . industrial designer: but also w yes , b bu but when we use s soft project manager: but is it possible to use both the the plastic and so uh soft things and t p titanium , as well ? industrial designer: mm marketing: sure . project manager: makes it in a homogeneous uh design . industrial designer: mm . user interface: no , not all , not all of them . industrial designer: but it it then it uh you ca n't throw it it . it will uh make a huge noise or break other stuff project manager: it will it will break other stuff w when it 's plastic , as well . industrial designer: when you throw with uh titanium with your remote control . user interface: industrial designer: no uh , marketing: project manager: yeah . industrial designer: titanium is a bit uh it 's a bit harder . marketing: yeah , that 's true . project manager: no , but uh uh , you should ma yeah . industrial designer: but also on the colours , the young project manager: okay , think of the possibilities and make it in completely titanium . well would it be more trendy ? more chic ? marketing: yeah , i think it i think it does . user interface: uh , i think titanium nowadays is way more often used than plastic . industrial designer: yes , but a titanium remote control , when you 're uh watching tv uh or your hands are a little bit sweaty , and the user interface: in trendy things . marketing: yeah , o on the other hand , if you want to make fruit fruity stuff with uh user interface: yeah . it 's cold in the winter . project manager: yeah , but i i really like the idea of the the the plastic and the big kind of thing . industrial designer: yes . project manager: but the question is i then it 's , you know , is is it fits in our s philosophy to make it uh sturdy and simple and uh , know , like uh user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , that 's true , that 's true . industrial designer: sports and gaming . define project manager: when you make it titanium , it becomes more like some kind of gadget you actually do n't need . and when it 's big and plastic , it 's like some fun stuff you can always have around . it 's always fun to have something big and plastic around . user interface: you have that uh m_p_ three player of nike , i saw . marketing: yes . yeah . user interface: is n't that titanium with a little bit of rubber ? industrial designer: yes , it 's w but it is uh plastic . user interface: is n't it is plastic ? well , it 's titanium looking . industrial designer: yes , w we can do that on the on the marketing: what ? user interface: yeah , he is . here he is . uh , the i do n't know if you know the m_p_ three player of nike . 'kay , uh that that 's very uh with rubber , so it 's very marketing: oh , yeah . okay , yeah . project manager: yeah , that 's beautiful . marketing: yeah , i see . industrial designer: we can make this as a style too . marketing: yeah , but but but user interface: rough . industrial designer: uh , this is uh just a project manager: oh , maybe th maybe this is an marketing: yeah , i th i think that 's difficult , because uh that 's different material , and then you got ta have like uh uh uh two material lines of of of industrial designer: no , we c we can make it from the same kind of plastic . marketing: yeah , if it 's just a colour uh which you uh which you change then , i guess it 's it 's nice to have one of these . project manager: no , i do like the idea of maybe a t titanium kind type of body w and then with s plastic colouration around it . industrial designer: uh marketing: uh project manager: you know , like the the soft stuff , marketing: yeah . project manager: but i do n't know if it 's possible . industrial designer: i do n't have the information . uh , i i did n't got it project manager: but you ca n't make the plastic give uh the ti titanium look . user interface: true . industrial designer: yes . project manager: but make it just like shiny . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah yeah , true . project manager: maybe we should uh shou industrial designer: like the m_p_ three player . user interface: yeah , maybe that 's good idea , yeah . but if you want to la uh yeah , last longer than two weeks or something like that , you can maybe marketing: yeah . project manager: and uh and marketing: project manager: maybe we sh should we t i do n't know if we should talk about uh , how how much time have we got left ? industrial designer: uh , in a lot of other uh user interface: i do n't know . project manager: forty minutes . user interface: what time does industrial designer: in a lot of other product uh categories like uh even in b in bags industry . uh , they began with uh t typical uh leather bags , but then they became stylish , with all all si all sort of colours , and w kind of fon of uh of fronts , like we can use on the telephone and it marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: like eastpack uh began a revolution with it with all this uh kind of bags and and colours and and project manager: you putting in different colours . industrial designer: yes , and and styles . project manager: okay . industrial designer: they have uh also uh a kind of uh um uh roses on it , a and uh marketing: uh yeah , yeah . project manager: okay . yeah , but w yeah . user interface: project manager: well , it is . it 's a possibility . but , let 's think about the bas industrial designer: then we can always uh use the same design for a greater resemblance , but with new uh with new colours , new marketing: yes . new prints on it . yep . project manager: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . industrial designer: yes . project manager: but wha th our basic idea y i mean , you gon na we 're probably gon na have like two type of materials , like the d d b the plastic uh enclosure and then the the pads that surround it . and and pro and lights . we have to incorporate the lights too . but , uh do w gon na gon na are we going to give it a two-tone colour look , like the the plastic mould is in in one colour and the s the cushion pads around it are in another colour ? is that the idea ? is that a good idea ? marketing: how do you mean ? th th the uh base in a in another project manager: how many colours are we how many colours are we gon na we 're uh uh f uh f user interface: the rubber . project manager: only five minutes left , by the way . how many colours are we gon na give it ? marketing: yes . project manager: like two-tone colour ? t industrial designer: there there are three uh components three components type . user interface: yeah . uh no , not too much i think . industrial designer: you have the buttons , the the case uh itself , and the rubber and th marketing: how the buttons yeah . project manager: i think maybe the case itself should be in one colour and then the rubber of the buttons , and the cushions as well should be in another colour . industrial designer: yes . user interface: or you just make uh one colour , uh maybe with a a z a kind of like a big wave or something like uh marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , but not more than user interface: in in another colour . project manager: well , yeah , it 's user interface: not more than two colours i think . project manager: no . user interface: it 's a g a little bit too flashy . marketing: no , definitely not . project manager: maybe we should talk about it on a l in a later meeting . industrial designer: yeah , or or when you use the buttons as black , it you can use two colours as well uh marketing: yes , definitely . project manager: okay . but we have to uh think of some other uh important things . industrial designer: project manager: uh oh yeah , the the functionalities of the the buttons . user interface: the funct yeah , i was i was thinking about th the st do we still want a joystick idea . project manager: no . marketing: no , i think that 's too vulnerable . project manager: i think this is okay , user interface: yeah . project manager: the so we have the basic . then we have the numbers . we have the power button . we have we have a teletext button . user interface: the volume , teletext and project manager: and maybe want to access a a menu or something . most tvs have a menu . marketing: yeah , but that 's that 's i was thinking that 's got ta be on the television . user interface: project manager: yeah , but i think you ha i really need a menu button . user interface: yeah yeah yeah yeah , b project manager: that 's just i the only button only user interface: yeah , but wha what kind of menu ? project manager: you know , i user interface: is uh is n't that different from every television ? project manager: no , i think most tvs have an uh a menu nowadays to access the uh uh screen settings . and so marketing: mm . yeah , if it 's c if yeah , i think it 's okay to to add a menu button for uh user interface: project manager: but that that covers all the all the other settings . it covers everything then . marketing: and if the tv does n't have a menu , then industrial designer: but then you have to put uh up and down and uh left and right marketing: yeah . project manager: no , you can use the marketing: yeah , you can put that on the two eight four and six or whatever . project manager: and you al can also use the normal skip buttons for that . industrial designer: okay . project manager: th in that way we have like only the numbers , the power button , skip and volume , and then uh uh ten uh rem marketing: mm , yeah . a mute and a teletext and a menu . project manager: uh yeah , mute . a teletext and a menu , and then then i that 's it . user interface: mute . project manager: it 's all we need . marketing: that 's all . user interface: yeah . marketing: hmm . project manager: okay , uh another stuf some stuff about the the the design of the docking station . marketing: great . yeah . user interface: okay , that 's not mu not much functions . so project manager: something important about a s uh , no , uh which sh uh should remind us of the remote itself , i guess . marketing: yeah , definitely . project manager: uh , in one colour . marketing: are we gon na do something with the uh spongy thing there ? project manager: just use i think the spongy thing already um comes forward in the in the in the cushions , pads and things on the s uh side . industrial designer: uh marketing: yeah , that 's true , that 's true . project manager: and we will make it spongy and and uh and uh well , the fruity thing is just the shape should be fru i did i think this is kind of fruity , you know . just round shapes with uh user interface: marketing: yeah , it 's kinda fruity , and with th with catchy colours uh uh w project manager: yeah , but we 're gon na have to we really have to think i think colours is very important , because it has to be flashy , but and but it d it does n't have to be annoying , that when you uh , know , some things is just over the top , and when you have it on your table for more than two weeks , you it just gets annoying , because it 's so big and flashy . marketing: yeah , definitely . project manager: uh , it has to be some level of subtlety , but we have to still have to think of how we manage to uh to get to that . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . guess we 're through then . marketing: okay . user interface: okay . marketing: i guess so . project manager: but we i think also we just so we have to do something with colour but also , i i think we have to keep the dark colour thing in mind . i think that 's uh adds to the user interface: yeah . marketing: yes . project manager: too much colour maybe m um user interface: too much colour , i it uh when you got it in a living room , it 's too much maybe project manager: but our des design experts will uh work that out . marketing: yea yeah . user interface: . it has to be project manager: okay , well i think the meeting will be over within a minute . user interface: yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: so we will wrap up . marketing: something like that . project manager: or is there anything we 'd like to discuss ? that 's right . marketing: i guess not . project manager: okay . marketing: do you , guys ? user interface: no . marketing: no ? project manager: okay . well , you will read the minutes uh in the you can find them in the user interface: oh , okay , yeah . marketing: in the shared folder . project manager: pro probably . yeah uh no , for su for sure because i 'm will now type them out . industrial designer: what are we going to do now ? project manager: uh , y yeah . marketing: you 'll see in you email , i guess . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think uh industrial designer: marketing: yeah , i do n't know . i do n't know . user interface: i hope so . and the other thing is that you do n't have kind of prototype or something like that . you see a kinda prototype you can a little bit more uh industrial designer: i will make one in the next uh twenty minutes . user interface: yeah . marketing: construct one , yeah . project manager: but toilet paper roll and uh user interface: with you laptop ? yeah . marketing: project manager: okay . user interface: oh my god . marketing: alright , shall we get back to work ? project manager: yep . i was waiting for the l last message , but marketing: great . user interface: well you are . we 're not . marketing: yeah . bastard . user interface: industrial designer: back to the pen . project manager: mm yeah . marketing: you lazy industrial designer: { vocalsound }

the group decided to have only the basic function buttons , including numbers button , power button , skip button , volume button , mute button , teletext button , and menu button .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: okay . everybody ready ? marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh i think the first thing we do is introduce ourselves marketing: i think so . project manager: and everybody 's name and what your function is ? marketing: yeah , that 's a good plan . project manager: so maybe we start with you ? user interface: okay . yeah , my name is francina . and i 'm uh an user interface my role is uh the main responsibility is user interface . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and my role is to design uh a television remote control . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . marketing: and i 'm a marketing person . i wan na figure out how to sell them . project manager: mm-hmm . and your name is ? marketing: my name is eileen . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . uh i 'm jeanne-oui . um uh my role is industrial designer and my responsibilities are uh uh um deal with the technical-functional designs and specifications of user interface and dealing with user interface design . project manager: very good . and as you already know i am betty . i am the project manager for today . so why do n't we look at the presentation to see what we really are supposed to do . um . marketing: okay . project manager: yes y opening , acquaintance , tool training well , the tools are , i think , we already i guess the tool is really our the computer , as far as i can see . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh we get ins each of us will get instructions and we 'll take it from there . project plan , that falls under the same heading pretty much . um , i do n't think we have any great discussion at this point . marketing: no . project manager: um . here is what this thing should be . this thing we are gon na um uh design is a new remote control . uh should be original , trendy , and , of course , user friendly . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so maybe you wan na make some notes of that . marketing: okay . project manager: okay ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: all right . here is what the functional design is supposed to achieve . um . that is it 's gon na be individual work and then at the meeting we 'll discuss what uh we have come up with . the same goes for the conceptual design , there will be individual work whic and then discussion afterwards . detailed design , same thing basically . marketing: mm 'kay so three different types of design that we 're gon na be concerned with okay . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: functional , conception and detailed . project manager: i ca n't write with this thing . marketing: maybe we should redesign it . project manager: yes . industrial designer: marketing: after we 've finished the remote control we 'll get to that . project manager: yeah , okay . all right ? then , tool training try out the white board , participant can draw their favourite animal . does anybody want to go and see how the white board works ? so that in case we have to , in the next meeting , present something on the white board . you wan na go eileen and marketing: okay , i 'll see what i can do . project manager: whether you without hanging yourself . marketing: see if i r see if i remember how to draw a kitty cat or a rabbit or something . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: and remember you have to press so it works . marketing: so that it will record okay . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um uh um traditional kitty cat . project manager: fat , a fat cat . user interface: marketing: i 've a very fat cat . industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: marketing: and it likes to sit like that . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: and you 're francine , right ? would you like s like just to see um how it feels , so that you have a little idea ? user interface: yes , i 'm francina . yes , sure . project manager: in marketing: am i supposed to wipe off that or project manager: no , no . no , that 's okay . user interface: no , okay . marketing: okay . project manager: i do n't know , we 'll get to that later . marketing: okay . user interface: what should i draw ? industrial designer: snake . user interface: i 'm going to draw a snake . industrial designer: project manager: okay . user interface: how does it look like ? industrial designer: marketing: uh , okay . industrial designer: project manager: okay . marketing: i hope the kitty cat is hungry 'cause i do n't like snakes . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: here 's the project finance uh which , of course , we all have to think about when we design this thing . um selling price is supposed to be twenty five euro . uh profit aim for the company is fifty million euro , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: the market range unlimited meaning international marketing: okay . project manager: and the production cost should not exceed hopefully should be less than twelve fifty euro . marketing: mm 'kay that should keep everybody on their toes and challenged . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: profit . um is fifty mm . project manager: so these are all things , of course , to remember with the budget and when you design to materials , cost , etcetera . now , uh the discussion i guess is um does anyone of you have experience with remote control ? marketing: oops . project manager: i exp i s 'cause we we use 'em we use 'em , right , everyday . industrial designer: yeah , of course , using remote control . yeah . user interface: yes . project manager: and um now having used a remote control for years does anybody already have like an idea like things you did n't like with it , things you would like to change , things you would like to improve with this thing ye any first ideas ? would you like it to be smaller , bigger , industrial designer: uh . project manager: have more have more buttons on it or maybe clearly better marked buttons , you know , things like that ? user interface: yeah , i industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yes , i i feel that all the remote should be very compact . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: small , right . mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , those which we get here nowadays it 's very long . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and um and it should have multi-purpose . like uh the remote control which we use for tv , it shou uh it should be used f uh for some other purpose also , like controlling the uh temperature inside the house or for air-conditioners , or for heating system . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: audio player . oh . okay . project manager: so it should be a multi-functional uh gadget that would um control all your household uh uh machines basically . user interface: yes , exactly yes . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: yes . industrial designer: divides us user interface: yeah . exactly . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: at um twelve fifty euros per user interface: industrial designer: project manager: well . marketing: well who knows if we get a really good designer maybe we can do that . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we certainly can try to i agree with her that to market something successfully it should do some more things . project manager: it should be something new it should be s it it should do something different than than just what we have . marketing: that 's right . project manager: now , of course , the other thing to think there is maybe the design . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , of course . user interface: yeah , design should be , yeah it should be different . all the almost all the remotes project manager: like trendy no like f for earlier we saw maybe it should be something trendy you know . maybe it should different colours or materials or you know . user interface: yes , exactly . industrial designer: yeah , maybe ten i do yeah , colours user interface: are different shapes . industrial designer: and al shapes also . yeah . user interface: yes . project manager: um so yeah shapes right , you know , like kidney shape feels better in your hand or something , you know . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah of course yeah . marketing: yeah okay , friendly shape , that would help . project manager: yeah . marketing: i think another thing that would help is um if it beeps when you clap , project manager: yes . marketing: because i think one of the big things that happens is people lose them . they ca n't find it . project manager: that is true , user interface: project manager: because they put a newspaper or they put it behind a plant or , we you know , whatever . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and and they suddenly the phone rings and they want to turn the tv off and they say , where the hell is my my remote control yeah ? marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: project manager: well or yeah or if it 's really , if it 's really in a dark spot that it gives out a a sound or a signal . marketing: so some industrial designer: yeah , some beep or something like that , project manager: yeah . mm-hmm . user interface: or a b marketing: uh so , so it 's really the beep or , or a light should blink . industrial designer: so that we can go project manager: so if lost if lost uh signal with b throw signal , you know . user interface: should ha industrial designer: yeah . user interface: a fluorescent signal , yeah . marketing: mm 'kay . industrial designer: yeah , maybe it should have a light so that we can , we can just recognise where it is . project manager: exactly , i mean just that 's what i 'm saying . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . may not be beep . project manager: i 'm just saying throw signal meaning just whether it 's a beep or whether a light or industrial designer: beep or uh it 's a light , maybe it 's a light . marketing: and do you think a good c c um clue for that is that it would respond to a clap or it would respond to your voice or it would respond what what should you have to do to make it beep or blink ? project manager: okay , my my idea is maybe that the minute it 's really hidden , in in other words if it 's like in a dark spot , uh meaning you know like a newspaper is on top , a sweater is on top or it it 's behind a plant , at that moment it 's it 's like , it 's like um , what you call it a light s sensors , you know ? marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: in in that moment it has a sensor , i it it gets a certain darkness , it ge has a sensor and it gives out a signal whether that be a light signal or a beep , marketing: okay so user interface: yes . marketing: okay . project manager: i mean , that we can discuss that later , you know . industrial designer: yeah , probably yeah , probably it 's a yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah . and uh marketing: so the light sensor would activate the signal . project manager: that 's right . you know there would be industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: right you have to have some kind of sensor and i i think uh voice or clapping it 's not specific enough . uh i know there are the lamps and stuff , you know , you can clap on and off , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . project manager: but i think they only work to certain degree and marketing: but it could be someplace really obvious and you still would n't be able to find it . project manager: what with industrial designer: yeah , of course , that did n't user interface: then , in that case marketing: well , because you 're s because you 're silly . because people are silly . industrial designer: i i we ca n't do it . project manager: oh yeah well , but then those people we ca n't help everybody . marketing: i mean it could be on well , i if it were like on top of your bookcase and you usually kept it on the coffee table industrial designer: marketing: um , project manager: okay we have uh marketing: you know , well maybe we have to move along , okay . project manager: yeah , we have to move along , but i think we have some good good points to start with here . industrial designer: yeah , good point . project manager: okay , the next meeting will be in thirty minutes . i think you all did you get uh notices on your computer for this ? okay so well , you got the notice um industrial designer: me yeah . user interface: yes . project manager: uh . the working design , i guess that 's the function i_d_ uh who is this ? the industrial designer that 's you . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , it 's functional de yeah , exactly , technical . project manager: okay . so , we looking for a working design when we come back . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: uh working design , yeah , it 's it 's uh mainly technical-functional design . project manager: then and then the technical funct you are the technical function , industrial designer: yeah , functional design , project manager: so so you are the working design . industrial designer: and you project manager: so you have a working design and then a functional design . user interface: okay . project manager: and the marketing manager is coming up with some user requirement specification , like friendliness , and what we just discussed in general . that would be your idea . and , of course , price . that it , that it , that the price is a good price . i mean , the price is given , but , that was marketing: mm-hmm . we have to justify that price by having sufficient features to make it sell at that price . project manager: that 's right . that 's right . user interface: project manager: and , you know , specifi you you will get specific um instructions for that . i think that 's the end of the show . yeah . so um we have well , we have a twen two two two three minutes . um any questions at this point ? or uh suggestions ? marketing: mm . project manager: i think basically basically you will get instructions to work with and if you have any questions uh , uh i guess , you can uh user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay , i think i have enough to think about 'til our next meeting . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , even i have . marketing: how about you people ? project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah , even i have , i think , yeah . marketing: really ? okay . 'kay . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , so let 's see . marketing: alright , well uh project manager: then uh we see you in about thirty minutes . and see what we can come up with . user interface: yes . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: okay . marketing: okay , very good . project manager: okay ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah .

the meeting kicked off with self-introductions , familiarizing team members and their responsibilities . after stating the scope of the project , which was to design a new remote control , the team tested out the functions of the white board . then , the team brainstormed about what features they would add to the new remote control , such as being multi-functional and having a light sensor , with the selling price of twenty five euros and production cost of twelve fifty euros .

what were the participants of this meeting responsible for ? </s> project manager: okay . everybody ready ? marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh i think the first thing we do is introduce ourselves marketing: i think so . project manager: and everybody 's name and what your function is ? marketing: yeah , that 's a good plan . project manager: so maybe we start with you ? user interface: okay . yeah , my name is francina . and i 'm uh an user interface my role is uh the main responsibility is user interface . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and my role is to design uh a television remote control . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . marketing: and i 'm a marketing person . i wan na figure out how to sell them . project manager: mm-hmm . and your name is ? marketing: my name is eileen . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . uh i 'm jeanne-oui . um uh my role is industrial designer and my responsibilities are uh uh um deal with the technical-functional designs and specifications of user interface and dealing with user interface design . project manager: very good . and as you already know i am betty . i am the project manager for today . so why do n't we look at the presentation to see what we really are supposed to do . um . marketing: okay . project manager: yes y opening , acquaintance , tool training well , the tools are , i think , we already i guess the tool is really our the computer , as far as i can see . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh we get ins each of us will get instructions and we 'll take it from there . project plan , that falls under the same heading pretty much . um , i do n't think we have any great discussion at this point . marketing: no . project manager: um . here is what this thing should be . this thing we are gon na um uh design is a new remote control . uh should be original , trendy , and , of course , user friendly . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so maybe you wan na make some notes of that . marketing: okay . project manager: okay ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: all right . here is what the functional design is supposed to achieve . um . that is it 's gon na be individual work and then at the meeting we 'll discuss what uh we have come up with . the same goes for the conceptual design , there will be individual work whic and then discussion afterwards . detailed design , same thing basically . marketing: mm 'kay so three different types of design that we 're gon na be concerned with okay . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: functional , conception and detailed . project manager: i ca n't write with this thing . marketing: maybe we should redesign it . project manager: yes . industrial designer: marketing: after we 've finished the remote control we 'll get to that . project manager: yeah , okay . all right ? then , tool training try out the white board , participant can draw their favourite animal . does anybody want to go and see how the white board works ? so that in case we have to , in the next meeting , present something on the white board . you wan na go eileen and marketing: okay , i 'll see what i can do . project manager: whether you without hanging yourself . marketing: see if i r see if i remember how to draw a kitty cat or a rabbit or something . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: and remember you have to press so it works . marketing: so that it will record okay . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um uh um traditional kitty cat . project manager: fat , a fat cat . user interface: marketing: i 've a very fat cat . industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: marketing: and it likes to sit like that . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: and you 're francine , right ? would you like s like just to see um how it feels , so that you have a little idea ? user interface: yes , i 'm francina . yes , sure . project manager: in marketing: am i supposed to wipe off that or project manager: no , no . no , that 's okay . user interface: no , okay . marketing: okay . project manager: i do n't know , we 'll get to that later . marketing: okay . user interface: what should i draw ? industrial designer: snake . user interface: i 'm going to draw a snake . industrial designer: project manager: okay . user interface: how does it look like ? industrial designer: marketing: uh , okay . industrial designer: project manager: okay . marketing: i hope the kitty cat is hungry 'cause i do n't like snakes . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: here 's the project finance uh which , of course , we all have to think about when we design this thing . um selling price is supposed to be twenty five euro . uh profit aim for the company is fifty million euro , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: the market range unlimited meaning international marketing: okay . project manager: and the production cost should not exceed hopefully should be less than twelve fifty euro . marketing: mm 'kay that should keep everybody on their toes and challenged . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: profit . um is fifty mm . project manager: so these are all things , of course , to remember with the budget and when you design to materials , cost , etcetera . now , uh the discussion i guess is um does anyone of you have experience with remote control ? marketing: oops . project manager: i exp i s 'cause we we use 'em we use 'em , right , everyday . industrial designer: yeah , of course , using remote control . yeah . user interface: yes . project manager: and um now having used a remote control for years does anybody already have like an idea like things you did n't like with it , things you would like to change , things you would like to improve with this thing ye any first ideas ? would you like it to be smaller , bigger , industrial designer: uh . project manager: have more have more buttons on it or maybe clearly better marked buttons , you know , things like that ? user interface: yeah , i industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yes , i i feel that all the remote should be very compact . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: small , right . mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , those which we get here nowadays it 's very long . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and um and it should have multi-purpose . like uh the remote control which we use for tv , it shou uh it should be used f uh for some other purpose also , like controlling the uh temperature inside the house or for air-conditioners , or for heating system . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: audio player . oh . okay . project manager: so it should be a multi-functional uh gadget that would um control all your household uh uh machines basically . user interface: yes , exactly yes . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: yes . industrial designer: divides us user interface: yeah . exactly . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: at um twelve fifty euros per user interface: industrial designer: project manager: well . marketing: well who knows if we get a really good designer maybe we can do that . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we certainly can try to i agree with her that to market something successfully it should do some more things . project manager: it should be something new it should be s it it should do something different than than just what we have . marketing: that 's right . project manager: now , of course , the other thing to think there is maybe the design . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , of course . user interface: yeah , design should be , yeah it should be different . all the almost all the remotes project manager: like trendy no like f for earlier we saw maybe it should be something trendy you know . maybe it should different colours or materials or you know . user interface: yes , exactly . industrial designer: yeah , maybe ten i do yeah , colours user interface: are different shapes . industrial designer: and al shapes also . yeah . user interface: yes . project manager: um so yeah shapes right , you know , like kidney shape feels better in your hand or something , you know . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah of course yeah . marketing: yeah okay , friendly shape , that would help . project manager: yeah . marketing: i think another thing that would help is um if it beeps when you clap , project manager: yes . marketing: because i think one of the big things that happens is people lose them . they ca n't find it . project manager: that is true , user interface: project manager: because they put a newspaper or they put it behind a plant or , we you know , whatever . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and and they suddenly the phone rings and they want to turn the tv off and they say , where the hell is my my remote control yeah ? marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: project manager: well or yeah or if it 's really , if it 's really in a dark spot that it gives out a a sound or a signal . marketing: so some industrial designer: yeah , some beep or something like that , project manager: yeah . mm-hmm . user interface: or a b marketing: uh so , so it 's really the beep or , or a light should blink . industrial designer: so that we can go project manager: so if lost if lost uh signal with b throw signal , you know . user interface: should ha industrial designer: yeah . user interface: a fluorescent signal , yeah . marketing: mm 'kay . industrial designer: yeah , maybe it should have a light so that we can , we can just recognise where it is . project manager: exactly , i mean just that 's what i 'm saying . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . may not be beep . project manager: i 'm just saying throw signal meaning just whether it 's a beep or whether a light or industrial designer: beep or uh it 's a light , maybe it 's a light . marketing: and do you think a good c c um clue for that is that it would respond to a clap or it would respond to your voice or it would respond what what should you have to do to make it beep or blink ? project manager: okay , my my idea is maybe that the minute it 's really hidden , in in other words if it 's like in a dark spot , uh meaning you know like a newspaper is on top , a sweater is on top or it it 's behind a plant , at that moment it 's it 's like , it 's like um , what you call it a light s sensors , you know ? marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: in in that moment it has a sensor , i it it gets a certain darkness , it ge has a sensor and it gives out a signal whether that be a light signal or a beep , marketing: okay so user interface: yes . marketing: okay . project manager: i mean , that we can discuss that later , you know . industrial designer: yeah , probably yeah , probably it 's a yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah . and uh marketing: so the light sensor would activate the signal . project manager: that 's right . you know there would be industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: right you have to have some kind of sensor and i i think uh voice or clapping it 's not specific enough . uh i know there are the lamps and stuff , you know , you can clap on and off , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . project manager: but i think they only work to certain degree and marketing: but it could be someplace really obvious and you still would n't be able to find it . project manager: what with industrial designer: yeah , of course , that did n't user interface: then , in that case marketing: well , because you 're s because you 're silly . because people are silly . industrial designer: i i we ca n't do it . project manager: oh yeah well , but then those people we ca n't help everybody . marketing: i mean it could be on well , i if it were like on top of your bookcase and you usually kept it on the coffee table industrial designer: marketing: um , project manager: okay we have uh marketing: you know , well maybe we have to move along , okay . project manager: yeah , we have to move along , but i think we have some good good points to start with here . industrial designer: yeah , good point . project manager: okay , the next meeting will be in thirty minutes . i think you all did you get uh notices on your computer for this ? okay so well , you got the notice um industrial designer: me yeah . user interface: yes . project manager: uh . the working design , i guess that 's the function i_d_ uh who is this ? the industrial designer that 's you . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , it 's functional de yeah , exactly , technical . project manager: okay . so , we looking for a working design when we come back . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: uh working design , yeah , it 's it 's uh mainly technical-functional design . project manager: then and then the technical funct you are the technical function , industrial designer: yeah , functional design , project manager: so so you are the working design . industrial designer: and you project manager: so you have a working design and then a functional design . user interface: okay . project manager: and the marketing manager is coming up with some user requirement specification , like friendliness , and what we just discussed in general . that would be your idea . and , of course , price . that it , that it , that the price is a good price . i mean , the price is given , but , that was marketing: mm-hmm . we have to justify that price by having sufficient features to make it sell at that price . project manager: that 's right . that 's right . user interface: project manager: and , you know , specifi you you will get specific um instructions for that . i think that 's the end of the show . yeah . so um we have well , we have a twen two two two three minutes . um any questions at this point ? or uh suggestions ? marketing: mm . project manager: i think basically basically you will get instructions to work with and if you have any questions uh , uh i guess , you can uh user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay , i think i have enough to think about 'til our next meeting . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , even i have . marketing: how about you people ? project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah , even i have , i think , yeah . marketing: really ? okay . 'kay . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , so let 's see . marketing: alright , well uh project manager: then uh we see you in about thirty minutes . and see what we can come up with . user interface: yes . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: okay . marketing: okay , very good . project manager: okay ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah .

the role of user interface is to design a television remote control . marketing is in charge of figuring out how to sell them . the responsibilities of industrial designer are dealing with technical and functional designs and specifications of user interface .

what is the scope of the project ? </s> project manager: okay . everybody ready ? marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh i think the first thing we do is introduce ourselves marketing: i think so . project manager: and everybody 's name and what your function is ? marketing: yeah , that 's a good plan . project manager: so maybe we start with you ? user interface: okay . yeah , my name is francina . and i 'm uh an user interface my role is uh the main responsibility is user interface . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and my role is to design uh a television remote control . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . marketing: and i 'm a marketing person . i wan na figure out how to sell them . project manager: mm-hmm . and your name is ? marketing: my name is eileen . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . uh i 'm jeanne-oui . um uh my role is industrial designer and my responsibilities are uh uh um deal with the technical-functional designs and specifications of user interface and dealing with user interface design . project manager: very good . and as you already know i am betty . i am the project manager for today . so why do n't we look at the presentation to see what we really are supposed to do . um . marketing: okay . project manager: yes y opening , acquaintance , tool training well , the tools are , i think , we already i guess the tool is really our the computer , as far as i can see . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh we get ins each of us will get instructions and we 'll take it from there . project plan , that falls under the same heading pretty much . um , i do n't think we have any great discussion at this point . marketing: no . project manager: um . here is what this thing should be . this thing we are gon na um uh design is a new remote control . uh should be original , trendy , and , of course , user friendly . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so maybe you wan na make some notes of that . marketing: okay . project manager: okay ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: all right . here is what the functional design is supposed to achieve . um . that is it 's gon na be individual work and then at the meeting we 'll discuss what uh we have come up with . the same goes for the conceptual design , there will be individual work whic and then discussion afterwards . detailed design , same thing basically . marketing: mm 'kay so three different types of design that we 're gon na be concerned with okay . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: functional , conception and detailed . project manager: i ca n't write with this thing . marketing: maybe we should redesign it . project manager: yes . industrial designer: marketing: after we 've finished the remote control we 'll get to that . project manager: yeah , okay . all right ? then , tool training try out the white board , participant can draw their favourite animal . does anybody want to go and see how the white board works ? so that in case we have to , in the next meeting , present something on the white board . you wan na go eileen and marketing: okay , i 'll see what i can do . project manager: whether you without hanging yourself . marketing: see if i r see if i remember how to draw a kitty cat or a rabbit or something . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: and remember you have to press so it works . marketing: so that it will record okay . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um uh um traditional kitty cat . project manager: fat , a fat cat . user interface: marketing: i 've a very fat cat . industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: marketing: and it likes to sit like that . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: and you 're francine , right ? would you like s like just to see um how it feels , so that you have a little idea ? user interface: yes , i 'm francina . yes , sure . project manager: in marketing: am i supposed to wipe off that or project manager: no , no . no , that 's okay . user interface: no , okay . marketing: okay . project manager: i do n't know , we 'll get to that later . marketing: okay . user interface: what should i draw ? industrial designer: snake . user interface: i 'm going to draw a snake . industrial designer: project manager: okay . user interface: how does it look like ? industrial designer: marketing: uh , okay . industrial designer: project manager: okay . marketing: i hope the kitty cat is hungry 'cause i do n't like snakes . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: here 's the project finance uh which , of course , we all have to think about when we design this thing . um selling price is supposed to be twenty five euro . uh profit aim for the company is fifty million euro , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: the market range unlimited meaning international marketing: okay . project manager: and the production cost should not exceed hopefully should be less than twelve fifty euro . marketing: mm 'kay that should keep everybody on their toes and challenged . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: profit . um is fifty mm . project manager: so these are all things , of course , to remember with the budget and when you design to materials , cost , etcetera . now , uh the discussion i guess is um does anyone of you have experience with remote control ? marketing: oops . project manager: i exp i s 'cause we we use 'em we use 'em , right , everyday . industrial designer: yeah , of course , using remote control . yeah . user interface: yes . project manager: and um now having used a remote control for years does anybody already have like an idea like things you did n't like with it , things you would like to change , things you would like to improve with this thing ye any first ideas ? would you like it to be smaller , bigger , industrial designer: uh . project manager: have more have more buttons on it or maybe clearly better marked buttons , you know , things like that ? user interface: yeah , i industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yes , i i feel that all the remote should be very compact . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: small , right . mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , those which we get here nowadays it 's very long . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and um and it should have multi-purpose . like uh the remote control which we use for tv , it shou uh it should be used f uh for some other purpose also , like controlling the uh temperature inside the house or for air-conditioners , or for heating system . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: audio player . oh . okay . project manager: so it should be a multi-functional uh gadget that would um control all your household uh uh machines basically . user interface: yes , exactly yes . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: yes . industrial designer: divides us user interface: yeah . exactly . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: at um twelve fifty euros per user interface: industrial designer: project manager: well . marketing: well who knows if we get a really good designer maybe we can do that . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we certainly can try to i agree with her that to market something successfully it should do some more things . project manager: it should be something new it should be s it it should do something different than than just what we have . marketing: that 's right . project manager: now , of course , the other thing to think there is maybe the design . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , of course . user interface: yeah , design should be , yeah it should be different . all the almost all the remotes project manager: like trendy no like f for earlier we saw maybe it should be something trendy you know . maybe it should different colours or materials or you know . user interface: yes , exactly . industrial designer: yeah , maybe ten i do yeah , colours user interface: are different shapes . industrial designer: and al shapes also . yeah . user interface: yes . project manager: um so yeah shapes right , you know , like kidney shape feels better in your hand or something , you know . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah of course yeah . marketing: yeah okay , friendly shape , that would help . project manager: yeah . marketing: i think another thing that would help is um if it beeps when you clap , project manager: yes . marketing: because i think one of the big things that happens is people lose them . they ca n't find it . project manager: that is true , user interface: project manager: because they put a newspaper or they put it behind a plant or , we you know , whatever . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and and they suddenly the phone rings and they want to turn the tv off and they say , where the hell is my my remote control yeah ? marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: project manager: well or yeah or if it 's really , if it 's really in a dark spot that it gives out a a sound or a signal . marketing: so some industrial designer: yeah , some beep or something like that , project manager: yeah . mm-hmm . user interface: or a b marketing: uh so , so it 's really the beep or , or a light should blink . industrial designer: so that we can go project manager: so if lost if lost uh signal with b throw signal , you know . user interface: should ha industrial designer: yeah . user interface: a fluorescent signal , yeah . marketing: mm 'kay . industrial designer: yeah , maybe it should have a light so that we can , we can just recognise where it is . project manager: exactly , i mean just that 's what i 'm saying . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . may not be beep . project manager: i 'm just saying throw signal meaning just whether it 's a beep or whether a light or industrial designer: beep or uh it 's a light , maybe it 's a light . marketing: and do you think a good c c um clue for that is that it would respond to a clap or it would respond to your voice or it would respond what what should you have to do to make it beep or blink ? project manager: okay , my my idea is maybe that the minute it 's really hidden , in in other words if it 's like in a dark spot , uh meaning you know like a newspaper is on top , a sweater is on top or it it 's behind a plant , at that moment it 's it 's like , it 's like um , what you call it a light s sensors , you know ? marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: in in that moment it has a sensor , i it it gets a certain darkness , it ge has a sensor and it gives out a signal whether that be a light signal or a beep , marketing: okay so user interface: yes . marketing: okay . project manager: i mean , that we can discuss that later , you know . industrial designer: yeah , probably yeah , probably it 's a yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah . and uh marketing: so the light sensor would activate the signal . project manager: that 's right . you know there would be industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: right you have to have some kind of sensor and i i think uh voice or clapping it 's not specific enough . uh i know there are the lamps and stuff , you know , you can clap on and off , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . project manager: but i think they only work to certain degree and marketing: but it could be someplace really obvious and you still would n't be able to find it . project manager: what with industrial designer: yeah , of course , that did n't user interface: then , in that case marketing: well , because you 're s because you 're silly . because people are silly . industrial designer: i i we ca n't do it . project manager: oh yeah well , but then those people we ca n't help everybody . marketing: i mean it could be on well , i if it were like on top of your bookcase and you usually kept it on the coffee table industrial designer: marketing: um , project manager: okay we have uh marketing: you know , well maybe we have to move along , okay . project manager: yeah , we have to move along , but i think we have some good good points to start with here . industrial designer: yeah , good point . project manager: okay , the next meeting will be in thirty minutes . i think you all did you get uh notices on your computer for this ? okay so well , you got the notice um industrial designer: me yeah . user interface: yes . project manager: uh . the working design , i guess that 's the function i_d_ uh who is this ? the industrial designer that 's you . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , it 's functional de yeah , exactly , technical . project manager: okay . so , we looking for a working design when we come back . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: uh working design , yeah , it 's it 's uh mainly technical-functional design . project manager: then and then the technical funct you are the technical function , industrial designer: yeah , functional design , project manager: so so you are the working design . industrial designer: and you project manager: so you have a working design and then a functional design . user interface: okay . project manager: and the marketing manager is coming up with some user requirement specification , like friendliness , and what we just discussed in general . that would be your idea . and , of course , price . that it , that it , that the price is a good price . i mean , the price is given , but , that was marketing: mm-hmm . we have to justify that price by having sufficient features to make it sell at that price . project manager: that 's right . that 's right . user interface: project manager: and , you know , specifi you you will get specific um instructions for that . i think that 's the end of the show . yeah . so um we have well , we have a twen two two two three minutes . um any questions at this point ? or uh suggestions ? marketing: mm . project manager: i think basically basically you will get instructions to work with and if you have any questions uh , uh i guess , you can uh user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay , i think i have enough to think about 'til our next meeting . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , even i have . marketing: how about you people ? project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah , even i have , i think , yeah . marketing: really ? okay . 'kay . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , so let 's see . marketing: alright , well uh project manager: then uh we see you in about thirty minutes . and see what we can come up with . user interface: yes . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: okay . marketing: okay , very good . project manager: okay ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah .

the project goal was to design an original , trendy and user-friendly remote control for the international market . the project will be divided into three parts - functional , conceptual and detailed design . the selling price and the production cost of the remote should be twenty five euros and less than twelve fifty euros respectively . the profit aim for the company is fifty million euros .

what did the team think of user interface 's idea regarding a compact and multi-purpose remote ? </s> project manager: okay . everybody ready ? marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh i think the first thing we do is introduce ourselves marketing: i think so . project manager: and everybody 's name and what your function is ? marketing: yeah , that 's a good plan . project manager: so maybe we start with you ? user interface: okay . yeah , my name is francina . and i 'm uh an user interface my role is uh the main responsibility is user interface . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and my role is to design uh a television remote control . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . marketing: and i 'm a marketing person . i wan na figure out how to sell them . project manager: mm-hmm . and your name is ? marketing: my name is eileen . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . uh i 'm jeanne-oui . um uh my role is industrial designer and my responsibilities are uh uh um deal with the technical-functional designs and specifications of user interface and dealing with user interface design . project manager: very good . and as you already know i am betty . i am the project manager for today . so why do n't we look at the presentation to see what we really are supposed to do . um . marketing: okay . project manager: yes y opening , acquaintance , tool training well , the tools are , i think , we already i guess the tool is really our the computer , as far as i can see . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh we get ins each of us will get instructions and we 'll take it from there . project plan , that falls under the same heading pretty much . um , i do n't think we have any great discussion at this point . marketing: no . project manager: um . here is what this thing should be . this thing we are gon na um uh design is a new remote control . uh should be original , trendy , and , of course , user friendly . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so maybe you wan na make some notes of that . marketing: okay . project manager: okay ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: all right . here is what the functional design is supposed to achieve . um . that is it 's gon na be individual work and then at the meeting we 'll discuss what uh we have come up with . the same goes for the conceptual design , there will be individual work whic and then discussion afterwards . detailed design , same thing basically . marketing: mm 'kay so three different types of design that we 're gon na be concerned with okay . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: functional , conception and detailed . project manager: i ca n't write with this thing . marketing: maybe we should redesign it . project manager: yes . industrial designer: marketing: after we 've finished the remote control we 'll get to that . project manager: yeah , okay . all right ? then , tool training try out the white board , participant can draw their favourite animal . does anybody want to go and see how the white board works ? so that in case we have to , in the next meeting , present something on the white board . you wan na go eileen and marketing: okay , i 'll see what i can do . project manager: whether you without hanging yourself . marketing: see if i r see if i remember how to draw a kitty cat or a rabbit or something . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: and remember you have to press so it works . marketing: so that it will record okay . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um uh um traditional kitty cat . project manager: fat , a fat cat . user interface: marketing: i 've a very fat cat . industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: marketing: and it likes to sit like that . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: and you 're francine , right ? would you like s like just to see um how it feels , so that you have a little idea ? user interface: yes , i 'm francina . yes , sure . project manager: in marketing: am i supposed to wipe off that or project manager: no , no . no , that 's okay . user interface: no , okay . marketing: okay . project manager: i do n't know , we 'll get to that later . marketing: okay . user interface: what should i draw ? industrial designer: snake . user interface: i 'm going to draw a snake . industrial designer: project manager: okay . user interface: how does it look like ? industrial designer: marketing: uh , okay . industrial designer: project manager: okay . marketing: i hope the kitty cat is hungry 'cause i do n't like snakes . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: here 's the project finance uh which , of course , we all have to think about when we design this thing . um selling price is supposed to be twenty five euro . uh profit aim for the company is fifty million euro , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: the market range unlimited meaning international marketing: okay . project manager: and the production cost should not exceed hopefully should be less than twelve fifty euro . marketing: mm 'kay that should keep everybody on their toes and challenged . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: profit . um is fifty mm . project manager: so these are all things , of course , to remember with the budget and when you design to materials , cost , etcetera . now , uh the discussion i guess is um does anyone of you have experience with remote control ? marketing: oops . project manager: i exp i s 'cause we we use 'em we use 'em , right , everyday . industrial designer: yeah , of course , using remote control . yeah . user interface: yes . project manager: and um now having used a remote control for years does anybody already have like an idea like things you did n't like with it , things you would like to change , things you would like to improve with this thing ye any first ideas ? would you like it to be smaller , bigger , industrial designer: uh . project manager: have more have more buttons on it or maybe clearly better marked buttons , you know , things like that ? user interface: yeah , i industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yes , i i feel that all the remote should be very compact . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: small , right . mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , those which we get here nowadays it 's very long . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and um and it should have multi-purpose . like uh the remote control which we use for tv , it shou uh it should be used f uh for some other purpose also , like controlling the uh temperature inside the house or for air-conditioners , or for heating system . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: audio player . oh . okay . project manager: so it should be a multi-functional uh gadget that would um control all your household uh uh machines basically . user interface: yes , exactly yes . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: yes . industrial designer: divides us user interface: yeah . exactly . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: at um twelve fifty euros per user interface: industrial designer: project manager: well . marketing: well who knows if we get a really good designer maybe we can do that . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we certainly can try to i agree with her that to market something successfully it should do some more things . project manager: it should be something new it should be s it it should do something different than than just what we have . marketing: that 's right . project manager: now , of course , the other thing to think there is maybe the design . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , of course . user interface: yeah , design should be , yeah it should be different . all the almost all the remotes project manager: like trendy no like f for earlier we saw maybe it should be something trendy you know . maybe it should different colours or materials or you know . user interface: yes , exactly . industrial designer: yeah , maybe ten i do yeah , colours user interface: are different shapes . industrial designer: and al shapes also . yeah . user interface: yes . project manager: um so yeah shapes right , you know , like kidney shape feels better in your hand or something , you know . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah of course yeah . marketing: yeah okay , friendly shape , that would help . project manager: yeah . marketing: i think another thing that would help is um if it beeps when you clap , project manager: yes . marketing: because i think one of the big things that happens is people lose them . they ca n't find it . project manager: that is true , user interface: project manager: because they put a newspaper or they put it behind a plant or , we you know , whatever . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and and they suddenly the phone rings and they want to turn the tv off and they say , where the hell is my my remote control yeah ? marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: project manager: well or yeah or if it 's really , if it 's really in a dark spot that it gives out a a sound or a signal . marketing: so some industrial designer: yeah , some beep or something like that , project manager: yeah . mm-hmm . user interface: or a b marketing: uh so , so it 's really the beep or , or a light should blink . industrial designer: so that we can go project manager: so if lost if lost uh signal with b throw signal , you know . user interface: should ha industrial designer: yeah . user interface: a fluorescent signal , yeah . marketing: mm 'kay . industrial designer: yeah , maybe it should have a light so that we can , we can just recognise where it is . project manager: exactly , i mean just that 's what i 'm saying . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . may not be beep . project manager: i 'm just saying throw signal meaning just whether it 's a beep or whether a light or industrial designer: beep or uh it 's a light , maybe it 's a light . marketing: and do you think a good c c um clue for that is that it would respond to a clap or it would respond to your voice or it would respond what what should you have to do to make it beep or blink ? project manager: okay , my my idea is maybe that the minute it 's really hidden , in in other words if it 's like in a dark spot , uh meaning you know like a newspaper is on top , a sweater is on top or it it 's behind a plant , at that moment it 's it 's like , it 's like um , what you call it a light s sensors , you know ? marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: in in that moment it has a sensor , i it it gets a certain darkness , it ge has a sensor and it gives out a signal whether that be a light signal or a beep , marketing: okay so user interface: yes . marketing: okay . project manager: i mean , that we can discuss that later , you know . industrial designer: yeah , probably yeah , probably it 's a yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah . and uh marketing: so the light sensor would activate the signal . project manager: that 's right . you know there would be industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: right you have to have some kind of sensor and i i think uh voice or clapping it 's not specific enough . uh i know there are the lamps and stuff , you know , you can clap on and off , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . project manager: but i think they only work to certain degree and marketing: but it could be someplace really obvious and you still would n't be able to find it . project manager: what with industrial designer: yeah , of course , that did n't user interface: then , in that case marketing: well , because you 're s because you 're silly . because people are silly . industrial designer: i i we ca n't do it . project manager: oh yeah well , but then those people we ca n't help everybody . marketing: i mean it could be on well , i if it were like on top of your bookcase and you usually kept it on the coffee table industrial designer: marketing: um , project manager: okay we have uh marketing: you know , well maybe we have to move along , okay . project manager: yeah , we have to move along , but i think we have some good good points to start with here . industrial designer: yeah , good point . project manager: okay , the next meeting will be in thirty minutes . i think you all did you get uh notices on your computer for this ? okay so well , you got the notice um industrial designer: me yeah . user interface: yes . project manager: uh . the working design , i guess that 's the function i_d_ uh who is this ? the industrial designer that 's you . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , it 's functional de yeah , exactly , technical . project manager: okay . so , we looking for a working design when we come back . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: uh working design , yeah , it 's it 's uh mainly technical-functional design . project manager: then and then the technical funct you are the technical function , industrial designer: yeah , functional design , project manager: so so you are the working design . industrial designer: and you project manager: so you have a working design and then a functional design . user interface: okay . project manager: and the marketing manager is coming up with some user requirement specification , like friendliness , and what we just discussed in general . that would be your idea . and , of course , price . that it , that it , that the price is a good price . i mean , the price is given , but , that was marketing: mm-hmm . we have to justify that price by having sufficient features to make it sell at that price . project manager: that 's right . that 's right . user interface: project manager: and , you know , specifi you you will get specific um instructions for that . i think that 's the end of the show . yeah . so um we have well , we have a twen two two two three minutes . um any questions at this point ? or uh suggestions ? marketing: mm . project manager: i think basically basically you will get instructions to work with and if you have any questions uh , uh i guess , you can uh user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay , i think i have enough to think about 'til our next meeting . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , even i have . marketing: how about you people ? project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah , even i have , i think , yeah . marketing: really ? okay . 'kay . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , so let 's see . marketing: alright , well uh project manager: then uh we see you in about thirty minutes . and see what we can come up with . user interface: yes . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: okay . marketing: okay , very good . project manager: okay ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah .

user interface suggested that the remote should be compact and able to be used for other purposes such as controlling air-conditioners or heating systems . industrial designer agreed and added audio players should also be controlled as well .

summarize the discussion about the appearance of the remote . </s> project manager: okay . everybody ready ? marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh i think the first thing we do is introduce ourselves marketing: i think so . project manager: and everybody 's name and what your function is ? marketing: yeah , that 's a good plan . project manager: so maybe we start with you ? user interface: okay . yeah , my name is francina . and i 'm uh an user interface my role is uh the main responsibility is user interface . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and my role is to design uh a television remote control . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . marketing: and i 'm a marketing person . i wan na figure out how to sell them . project manager: mm-hmm . and your name is ? marketing: my name is eileen . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . uh i 'm jeanne-oui . um uh my role is industrial designer and my responsibilities are uh uh um deal with the technical-functional designs and specifications of user interface and dealing with user interface design . project manager: very good . and as you already know i am betty . i am the project manager for today . so why do n't we look at the presentation to see what we really are supposed to do . um . marketing: okay . project manager: yes y opening , acquaintance , tool training well , the tools are , i think , we already i guess the tool is really our the computer , as far as i can see . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh we get ins each of us will get instructions and we 'll take it from there . project plan , that falls under the same heading pretty much . um , i do n't think we have any great discussion at this point . marketing: no . project manager: um . here is what this thing should be . this thing we are gon na um uh design is a new remote control . uh should be original , trendy , and , of course , user friendly . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so maybe you wan na make some notes of that . marketing: okay . project manager: okay ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: all right . here is what the functional design is supposed to achieve . um . that is it 's gon na be individual work and then at the meeting we 'll discuss what uh we have come up with . the same goes for the conceptual design , there will be individual work whic and then discussion afterwards . detailed design , same thing basically . marketing: mm 'kay so three different types of design that we 're gon na be concerned with okay . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: functional , conception and detailed . project manager: i ca n't write with this thing . marketing: maybe we should redesign it . project manager: yes . industrial designer: marketing: after we 've finished the remote control we 'll get to that . project manager: yeah , okay . all right ? then , tool training try out the white board , participant can draw their favourite animal . does anybody want to go and see how the white board works ? so that in case we have to , in the next meeting , present something on the white board . you wan na go eileen and marketing: okay , i 'll see what i can do . project manager: whether you without hanging yourself . marketing: see if i r see if i remember how to draw a kitty cat or a rabbit or something . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: and remember you have to press so it works . marketing: so that it will record okay . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um uh um traditional kitty cat . project manager: fat , a fat cat . user interface: marketing: i 've a very fat cat . industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: marketing: and it likes to sit like that . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: and you 're francine , right ? would you like s like just to see um how it feels , so that you have a little idea ? user interface: yes , i 'm francina . yes , sure . project manager: in marketing: am i supposed to wipe off that or project manager: no , no . no , that 's okay . user interface: no , okay . marketing: okay . project manager: i do n't know , we 'll get to that later . marketing: okay . user interface: what should i draw ? industrial designer: snake . user interface: i 'm going to draw a snake . industrial designer: project manager: okay . user interface: how does it look like ? industrial designer: marketing: uh , okay . industrial designer: project manager: okay . marketing: i hope the kitty cat is hungry 'cause i do n't like snakes . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: here 's the project finance uh which , of course , we all have to think about when we design this thing . um selling price is supposed to be twenty five euro . uh profit aim for the company is fifty million euro , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: the market range unlimited meaning international marketing: okay . project manager: and the production cost should not exceed hopefully should be less than twelve fifty euro . marketing: mm 'kay that should keep everybody on their toes and challenged . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: profit . um is fifty mm . project manager: so these are all things , of course , to remember with the budget and when you design to materials , cost , etcetera . now , uh the discussion i guess is um does anyone of you have experience with remote control ? marketing: oops . project manager: i exp i s 'cause we we use 'em we use 'em , right , everyday . industrial designer: yeah , of course , using remote control . yeah . user interface: yes . project manager: and um now having used a remote control for years does anybody already have like an idea like things you did n't like with it , things you would like to change , things you would like to improve with this thing ye any first ideas ? would you like it to be smaller , bigger , industrial designer: uh . project manager: have more have more buttons on it or maybe clearly better marked buttons , you know , things like that ? user interface: yeah , i industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yes , i i feel that all the remote should be very compact . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: small , right . mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , those which we get here nowadays it 's very long . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and um and it should have multi-purpose . like uh the remote control which we use for tv , it shou uh it should be used f uh for some other purpose also , like controlling the uh temperature inside the house or for air-conditioners , or for heating system . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: audio player . oh . okay . project manager: so it should be a multi-functional uh gadget that would um control all your household uh uh machines basically . user interface: yes , exactly yes . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: yes . industrial designer: divides us user interface: yeah . exactly . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: at um twelve fifty euros per user interface: industrial designer: project manager: well . marketing: well who knows if we get a really good designer maybe we can do that . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we certainly can try to i agree with her that to market something successfully it should do some more things . project manager: it should be something new it should be s it it should do something different than than just what we have . marketing: that 's right . project manager: now , of course , the other thing to think there is maybe the design . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , of course . user interface: yeah , design should be , yeah it should be different . all the almost all the remotes project manager: like trendy no like f for earlier we saw maybe it should be something trendy you know . maybe it should different colours or materials or you know . user interface: yes , exactly . industrial designer: yeah , maybe ten i do yeah , colours user interface: are different shapes . industrial designer: and al shapes also . yeah . user interface: yes . project manager: um so yeah shapes right , you know , like kidney shape feels better in your hand or something , you know . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah of course yeah . marketing: yeah okay , friendly shape , that would help . project manager: yeah . marketing: i think another thing that would help is um if it beeps when you clap , project manager: yes . marketing: because i think one of the big things that happens is people lose them . they ca n't find it . project manager: that is true , user interface: project manager: because they put a newspaper or they put it behind a plant or , we you know , whatever . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and and they suddenly the phone rings and they want to turn the tv off and they say , where the hell is my my remote control yeah ? marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: project manager: well or yeah or if it 's really , if it 's really in a dark spot that it gives out a a sound or a signal . marketing: so some industrial designer: yeah , some beep or something like that , project manager: yeah . mm-hmm . user interface: or a b marketing: uh so , so it 's really the beep or , or a light should blink . industrial designer: so that we can go project manager: so if lost if lost uh signal with b throw signal , you know . user interface: should ha industrial designer: yeah . user interface: a fluorescent signal , yeah . marketing: mm 'kay . industrial designer: yeah , maybe it should have a light so that we can , we can just recognise where it is . project manager: exactly , i mean just that 's what i 'm saying . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . may not be beep . project manager: i 'm just saying throw signal meaning just whether it 's a beep or whether a light or industrial designer: beep or uh it 's a light , maybe it 's a light . marketing: and do you think a good c c um clue for that is that it would respond to a clap or it would respond to your voice or it would respond what what should you have to do to make it beep or blink ? project manager: okay , my my idea is maybe that the minute it 's really hidden , in in other words if it 's like in a dark spot , uh meaning you know like a newspaper is on top , a sweater is on top or it it 's behind a plant , at that moment it 's it 's like , it 's like um , what you call it a light s sensors , you know ? marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: in in that moment it has a sensor , i it it gets a certain darkness , it ge has a sensor and it gives out a signal whether that be a light signal or a beep , marketing: okay so user interface: yes . marketing: okay . project manager: i mean , that we can discuss that later , you know . industrial designer: yeah , probably yeah , probably it 's a yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah . and uh marketing: so the light sensor would activate the signal . project manager: that 's right . you know there would be industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: right you have to have some kind of sensor and i i think uh voice or clapping it 's not specific enough . uh i know there are the lamps and stuff , you know , you can clap on and off , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . project manager: but i think they only work to certain degree and marketing: but it could be someplace really obvious and you still would n't be able to find it . project manager: what with industrial designer: yeah , of course , that did n't user interface: then , in that case marketing: well , because you 're s because you 're silly . because people are silly . industrial designer: i i we ca n't do it . project manager: oh yeah well , but then those people we ca n't help everybody . marketing: i mean it could be on well , i if it were like on top of your bookcase and you usually kept it on the coffee table industrial designer: marketing: um , project manager: okay we have uh marketing: you know , well maybe we have to move along , okay . project manager: yeah , we have to move along , but i think we have some good good points to start with here . industrial designer: yeah , good point . project manager: okay , the next meeting will be in thirty minutes . i think you all did you get uh notices on your computer for this ? okay so well , you got the notice um industrial designer: me yeah . user interface: yes . project manager: uh . the working design , i guess that 's the function i_d_ uh who is this ? the industrial designer that 's you . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , it 's functional de yeah , exactly , technical . project manager: okay . so , we looking for a working design when we come back . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: uh working design , yeah , it 's it 's uh mainly technical-functional design . project manager: then and then the technical funct you are the technical function , industrial designer: yeah , functional design , project manager: so so you are the working design . industrial designer: and you project manager: so you have a working design and then a functional design . user interface: okay . project manager: and the marketing manager is coming up with some user requirement specification , like friendliness , and what we just discussed in general . that would be your idea . and , of course , price . that it , that it , that the price is a good price . i mean , the price is given , but , that was marketing: mm-hmm . we have to justify that price by having sufficient features to make it sell at that price . project manager: that 's right . that 's right . user interface: project manager: and , you know , specifi you you will get specific um instructions for that . i think that 's the end of the show . yeah . so um we have well , we have a twen two two two three minutes . um any questions at this point ? or uh suggestions ? marketing: mm . project manager: i think basically basically you will get instructions to work with and if you have any questions uh , uh i guess , you can uh user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay , i think i have enough to think about 'til our next meeting . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , even i have . marketing: how about you people ? project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah , even i have , i think , yeah . marketing: really ? okay . 'kay . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , so let 's see . marketing: alright , well uh project manager: then uh we see you in about thirty minutes . and see what we can come up with . user interface: yes . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: okay . marketing: okay , very good . project manager: okay ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah .

the remote should be compact with a friendly shape , like the kidney shape project manager proposed . it should also be made with different material and colour so as to be more trendy .

what solutions did the team come up with to help people better locate the remote ? </s> project manager: okay . everybody ready ? marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh i think the first thing we do is introduce ourselves marketing: i think so . project manager: and everybody 's name and what your function is ? marketing: yeah , that 's a good plan . project manager: so maybe we start with you ? user interface: okay . yeah , my name is francina . and i 'm uh an user interface my role is uh the main responsibility is user interface . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and my role is to design uh a television remote control . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . marketing: and i 'm a marketing person . i wan na figure out how to sell them . project manager: mm-hmm . and your name is ? marketing: my name is eileen . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . uh i 'm jeanne-oui . um uh my role is industrial designer and my responsibilities are uh uh um deal with the technical-functional designs and specifications of user interface and dealing with user interface design . project manager: very good . and as you already know i am betty . i am the project manager for today . so why do n't we look at the presentation to see what we really are supposed to do . um . marketing: okay . project manager: yes y opening , acquaintance , tool training well , the tools are , i think , we already i guess the tool is really our the computer , as far as i can see . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh we get ins each of us will get instructions and we 'll take it from there . project plan , that falls under the same heading pretty much . um , i do n't think we have any great discussion at this point . marketing: no . project manager: um . here is what this thing should be . this thing we are gon na um uh design is a new remote control . uh should be original , trendy , and , of course , user friendly . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so maybe you wan na make some notes of that . marketing: okay . project manager: okay ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: all right . here is what the functional design is supposed to achieve . um . that is it 's gon na be individual work and then at the meeting we 'll discuss what uh we have come up with . the same goes for the conceptual design , there will be individual work whic and then discussion afterwards . detailed design , same thing basically . marketing: mm 'kay so three different types of design that we 're gon na be concerned with okay . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: functional , conception and detailed . project manager: i ca n't write with this thing . marketing: maybe we should redesign it . project manager: yes . industrial designer: marketing: after we 've finished the remote control we 'll get to that . project manager: yeah , okay . all right ? then , tool training try out the white board , participant can draw their favourite animal . does anybody want to go and see how the white board works ? so that in case we have to , in the next meeting , present something on the white board . you wan na go eileen and marketing: okay , i 'll see what i can do . project manager: whether you without hanging yourself . marketing: see if i r see if i remember how to draw a kitty cat or a rabbit or something . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: and remember you have to press so it works . marketing: so that it will record okay . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um uh um traditional kitty cat . project manager: fat , a fat cat . user interface: marketing: i 've a very fat cat . industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: marketing: and it likes to sit like that . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: and you 're francine , right ? would you like s like just to see um how it feels , so that you have a little idea ? user interface: yes , i 'm francina . yes , sure . project manager: in marketing: am i supposed to wipe off that or project manager: no , no . no , that 's okay . user interface: no , okay . marketing: okay . project manager: i do n't know , we 'll get to that later . marketing: okay . user interface: what should i draw ? industrial designer: snake . user interface: i 'm going to draw a snake . industrial designer: project manager: okay . user interface: how does it look like ? industrial designer: marketing: uh , okay . industrial designer: project manager: okay . marketing: i hope the kitty cat is hungry 'cause i do n't like snakes . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: here 's the project finance uh which , of course , we all have to think about when we design this thing . um selling price is supposed to be twenty five euro . uh profit aim for the company is fifty million euro , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: the market range unlimited meaning international marketing: okay . project manager: and the production cost should not exceed hopefully should be less than twelve fifty euro . marketing: mm 'kay that should keep everybody on their toes and challenged . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: profit . um is fifty mm . project manager: so these are all things , of course , to remember with the budget and when you design to materials , cost , etcetera . now , uh the discussion i guess is um does anyone of you have experience with remote control ? marketing: oops . project manager: i exp i s 'cause we we use 'em we use 'em , right , everyday . industrial designer: yeah , of course , using remote control . yeah . user interface: yes . project manager: and um now having used a remote control for years does anybody already have like an idea like things you did n't like with it , things you would like to change , things you would like to improve with this thing ye any first ideas ? would you like it to be smaller , bigger , industrial designer: uh . project manager: have more have more buttons on it or maybe clearly better marked buttons , you know , things like that ? user interface: yeah , i industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yes , i i feel that all the remote should be very compact . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: small , right . mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , those which we get here nowadays it 's very long . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and um and it should have multi-purpose . like uh the remote control which we use for tv , it shou uh it should be used f uh for some other purpose also , like controlling the uh temperature inside the house or for air-conditioners , or for heating system . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: audio player . oh . okay . project manager: so it should be a multi-functional uh gadget that would um control all your household uh uh machines basically . user interface: yes , exactly yes . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: yes . industrial designer: divides us user interface: yeah . exactly . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: at um twelve fifty euros per user interface: industrial designer: project manager: well . marketing: well who knows if we get a really good designer maybe we can do that . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we certainly can try to i agree with her that to market something successfully it should do some more things . project manager: it should be something new it should be s it it should do something different than than just what we have . marketing: that 's right . project manager: now , of course , the other thing to think there is maybe the design . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , of course . user interface: yeah , design should be , yeah it should be different . all the almost all the remotes project manager: like trendy no like f for earlier we saw maybe it should be something trendy you know . maybe it should different colours or materials or you know . user interface: yes , exactly . industrial designer: yeah , maybe ten i do yeah , colours user interface: are different shapes . industrial designer: and al shapes also . yeah . user interface: yes . project manager: um so yeah shapes right , you know , like kidney shape feels better in your hand or something , you know . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah of course yeah . marketing: yeah okay , friendly shape , that would help . project manager: yeah . marketing: i think another thing that would help is um if it beeps when you clap , project manager: yes . marketing: because i think one of the big things that happens is people lose them . they ca n't find it . project manager: that is true , user interface: project manager: because they put a newspaper or they put it behind a plant or , we you know , whatever . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and and they suddenly the phone rings and they want to turn the tv off and they say , where the hell is my my remote control yeah ? marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: project manager: well or yeah or if it 's really , if it 's really in a dark spot that it gives out a a sound or a signal . marketing: so some industrial designer: yeah , some beep or something like that , project manager: yeah . mm-hmm . user interface: or a b marketing: uh so , so it 's really the beep or , or a light should blink . industrial designer: so that we can go project manager: so if lost if lost uh signal with b throw signal , you know . user interface: should ha industrial designer: yeah . user interface: a fluorescent signal , yeah . marketing: mm 'kay . industrial designer: yeah , maybe it should have a light so that we can , we can just recognise where it is . project manager: exactly , i mean just that 's what i 'm saying . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . may not be beep . project manager: i 'm just saying throw signal meaning just whether it 's a beep or whether a light or industrial designer: beep or uh it 's a light , maybe it 's a light . marketing: and do you think a good c c um clue for that is that it would respond to a clap or it would respond to your voice or it would respond what what should you have to do to make it beep or blink ? project manager: okay , my my idea is maybe that the minute it 's really hidden , in in other words if it 's like in a dark spot , uh meaning you know like a newspaper is on top , a sweater is on top or it it 's behind a plant , at that moment it 's it 's like , it 's like um , what you call it a light s sensors , you know ? marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: in in that moment it has a sensor , i it it gets a certain darkness , it ge has a sensor and it gives out a signal whether that be a light signal or a beep , marketing: okay so user interface: yes . marketing: okay . project manager: i mean , that we can discuss that later , you know . industrial designer: yeah , probably yeah , probably it 's a yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah . and uh marketing: so the light sensor would activate the signal . project manager: that 's right . you know there would be industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: right you have to have some kind of sensor and i i think uh voice or clapping it 's not specific enough . uh i know there are the lamps and stuff , you know , you can clap on and off , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . project manager: but i think they only work to certain degree and marketing: but it could be someplace really obvious and you still would n't be able to find it . project manager: what with industrial designer: yeah , of course , that did n't user interface: then , in that case marketing: well , because you 're s because you 're silly . because people are silly . industrial designer: i i we ca n't do it . project manager: oh yeah well , but then those people we ca n't help everybody . marketing: i mean it could be on well , i if it were like on top of your bookcase and you usually kept it on the coffee table industrial designer: marketing: um , project manager: okay we have uh marketing: you know , well maybe we have to move along , okay . project manager: yeah , we have to move along , but i think we have some good good points to start with here . industrial designer: yeah , good point . project manager: okay , the next meeting will be in thirty minutes . i think you all did you get uh notices on your computer for this ? okay so well , you got the notice um industrial designer: me yeah . user interface: yes . project manager: uh . the working design , i guess that 's the function i_d_ uh who is this ? the industrial designer that 's you . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , it 's functional de yeah , exactly , technical . project manager: okay . so , we looking for a working design when we come back . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: uh working design , yeah , it 's it 's uh mainly technical-functional design . project manager: then and then the technical funct you are the technical function , industrial designer: yeah , functional design , project manager: so so you are the working design . industrial designer: and you project manager: so you have a working design and then a functional design . user interface: okay . project manager: and the marketing manager is coming up with some user requirement specification , like friendliness , and what we just discussed in general . that would be your idea . and , of course , price . that it , that it , that the price is a good price . i mean , the price is given , but , that was marketing: mm-hmm . we have to justify that price by having sufficient features to make it sell at that price . project manager: that 's right . that 's right . user interface: project manager: and , you know , specifi you you will get specific um instructions for that . i think that 's the end of the show . yeah . so um we have well , we have a twen two two two three minutes . um any questions at this point ? or uh suggestions ? marketing: mm . project manager: i think basically basically you will get instructions to work with and if you have any questions uh , uh i guess , you can uh user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay , i think i have enough to think about 'til our next meeting . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , even i have . marketing: how about you people ? project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah , even i have , i think , yeah . marketing: really ? okay . 'kay . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , so let 's see . marketing: alright , well uh project manager: then uh we see you in about thirty minutes . and see what we can come up with . user interface: yes . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: okay . marketing: okay , very good . project manager: okay ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah .

marketing suggested that the remote can beep or a light in the remote can blink when people clap . project manager added that it can also give off a signal , activated by light sensors , when it is in a dark spot . however , project manager later raised up the point that voice or clapping was not specific enough and other devices like lamps with the same function only worked to a certain degree .

what did the team discuss about the functions of the remote ? </s> project manager: okay . everybody ready ? marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh i think the first thing we do is introduce ourselves marketing: i think so . project manager: and everybody 's name and what your function is ? marketing: yeah , that 's a good plan . project manager: so maybe we start with you ? user interface: okay . yeah , my name is francina . and i 'm uh an user interface my role is uh the main responsibility is user interface . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and my role is to design uh a television remote control . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . marketing: and i 'm a marketing person . i wan na figure out how to sell them . project manager: mm-hmm . and your name is ? marketing: my name is eileen . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . uh i 'm jeanne-oui . um uh my role is industrial designer and my responsibilities are uh uh um deal with the technical-functional designs and specifications of user interface and dealing with user interface design . project manager: very good . and as you already know i am betty . i am the project manager for today . so why do n't we look at the presentation to see what we really are supposed to do . um . marketing: okay . project manager: yes y opening , acquaintance , tool training well , the tools are , i think , we already i guess the tool is really our the computer , as far as i can see . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh we get ins each of us will get instructions and we 'll take it from there . project plan , that falls under the same heading pretty much . um , i do n't think we have any great discussion at this point . marketing: no . project manager: um . here is what this thing should be . this thing we are gon na um uh design is a new remote control . uh should be original , trendy , and , of course , user friendly . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so maybe you wan na make some notes of that . marketing: okay . project manager: okay ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: all right . here is what the functional design is supposed to achieve . um . that is it 's gon na be individual work and then at the meeting we 'll discuss what uh we have come up with . the same goes for the conceptual design , there will be individual work whic and then discussion afterwards . detailed design , same thing basically . marketing: mm 'kay so three different types of design that we 're gon na be concerned with okay . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: functional , conception and detailed . project manager: i ca n't write with this thing . marketing: maybe we should redesign it . project manager: yes . industrial designer: marketing: after we 've finished the remote control we 'll get to that . project manager: yeah , okay . all right ? then , tool training try out the white board , participant can draw their favourite animal . does anybody want to go and see how the white board works ? so that in case we have to , in the next meeting , present something on the white board . you wan na go eileen and marketing: okay , i 'll see what i can do . project manager: whether you without hanging yourself . marketing: see if i r see if i remember how to draw a kitty cat or a rabbit or something . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: and remember you have to press so it works . marketing: so that it will record okay . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um uh um traditional kitty cat . project manager: fat , a fat cat . user interface: marketing: i 've a very fat cat . industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: marketing: and it likes to sit like that . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: and you 're francine , right ? would you like s like just to see um how it feels , so that you have a little idea ? user interface: yes , i 'm francina . yes , sure . project manager: in marketing: am i supposed to wipe off that or project manager: no , no . no , that 's okay . user interface: no , okay . marketing: okay . project manager: i do n't know , we 'll get to that later . marketing: okay . user interface: what should i draw ? industrial designer: snake . user interface: i 'm going to draw a snake . industrial designer: project manager: okay . user interface: how does it look like ? industrial designer: marketing: uh , okay . industrial designer: project manager: okay . marketing: i hope the kitty cat is hungry 'cause i do n't like snakes . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: here 's the project finance uh which , of course , we all have to think about when we design this thing . um selling price is supposed to be twenty five euro . uh profit aim for the company is fifty million euro , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: the market range unlimited meaning international marketing: okay . project manager: and the production cost should not exceed hopefully should be less than twelve fifty euro . marketing: mm 'kay that should keep everybody on their toes and challenged . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: profit . um is fifty mm . project manager: so these are all things , of course , to remember with the budget and when you design to materials , cost , etcetera . now , uh the discussion i guess is um does anyone of you have experience with remote control ? marketing: oops . project manager: i exp i s 'cause we we use 'em we use 'em , right , everyday . industrial designer: yeah , of course , using remote control . yeah . user interface: yes . project manager: and um now having used a remote control for years does anybody already have like an idea like things you did n't like with it , things you would like to change , things you would like to improve with this thing ye any first ideas ? would you like it to be smaller , bigger , industrial designer: uh . project manager: have more have more buttons on it or maybe clearly better marked buttons , you know , things like that ? user interface: yeah , i industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yes , i i feel that all the remote should be very compact . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: small , right . mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , those which we get here nowadays it 's very long . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and um and it should have multi-purpose . like uh the remote control which we use for tv , it shou uh it should be used f uh for some other purpose also , like controlling the uh temperature inside the house or for air-conditioners , or for heating system . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: audio player . oh . okay . project manager: so it should be a multi-functional uh gadget that would um control all your household uh uh machines basically . user interface: yes , exactly yes . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: yes . industrial designer: divides us user interface: yeah . exactly . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: at um twelve fifty euros per user interface: industrial designer: project manager: well . marketing: well who knows if we get a really good designer maybe we can do that . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we certainly can try to i agree with her that to market something successfully it should do some more things . project manager: it should be something new it should be s it it should do something different than than just what we have . marketing: that 's right . project manager: now , of course , the other thing to think there is maybe the design . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , of course . user interface: yeah , design should be , yeah it should be different . all the almost all the remotes project manager: like trendy no like f for earlier we saw maybe it should be something trendy you know . maybe it should different colours or materials or you know . user interface: yes , exactly . industrial designer: yeah , maybe ten i do yeah , colours user interface: are different shapes . industrial designer: and al shapes also . yeah . user interface: yes . project manager: um so yeah shapes right , you know , like kidney shape feels better in your hand or something , you know . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah of course yeah . marketing: yeah okay , friendly shape , that would help . project manager: yeah . marketing: i think another thing that would help is um if it beeps when you clap , project manager: yes . marketing: because i think one of the big things that happens is people lose them . they ca n't find it . project manager: that is true , user interface: project manager: because they put a newspaper or they put it behind a plant or , we you know , whatever . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and and they suddenly the phone rings and they want to turn the tv off and they say , where the hell is my my remote control yeah ? marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: project manager: well or yeah or if it 's really , if it 's really in a dark spot that it gives out a a sound or a signal . marketing: so some industrial designer: yeah , some beep or something like that , project manager: yeah . mm-hmm . user interface: or a b marketing: uh so , so it 's really the beep or , or a light should blink . industrial designer: so that we can go project manager: so if lost if lost uh signal with b throw signal , you know . user interface: should ha industrial designer: yeah . user interface: a fluorescent signal , yeah . marketing: mm 'kay . industrial designer: yeah , maybe it should have a light so that we can , we can just recognise where it is . project manager: exactly , i mean just that 's what i 'm saying . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . may not be beep . project manager: i 'm just saying throw signal meaning just whether it 's a beep or whether a light or industrial designer: beep or uh it 's a light , maybe it 's a light . marketing: and do you think a good c c um clue for that is that it would respond to a clap or it would respond to your voice or it would respond what what should you have to do to make it beep or blink ? project manager: okay , my my idea is maybe that the minute it 's really hidden , in in other words if it 's like in a dark spot , uh meaning you know like a newspaper is on top , a sweater is on top or it it 's behind a plant , at that moment it 's it 's like , it 's like um , what you call it a light s sensors , you know ? marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: in in that moment it has a sensor , i it it gets a certain darkness , it ge has a sensor and it gives out a signal whether that be a light signal or a beep , marketing: okay so user interface: yes . marketing: okay . project manager: i mean , that we can discuss that later , you know . industrial designer: yeah , probably yeah , probably it 's a yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah . and uh marketing: so the light sensor would activate the signal . project manager: that 's right . you know there would be industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: right you have to have some kind of sensor and i i think uh voice or clapping it 's not specific enough . uh i know there are the lamps and stuff , you know , you can clap on and off , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . project manager: but i think they only work to certain degree and marketing: but it could be someplace really obvious and you still would n't be able to find it . project manager: what with industrial designer: yeah , of course , that did n't user interface: then , in that case marketing: well , because you 're s because you 're silly . because people are silly . industrial designer: i i we ca n't do it . project manager: oh yeah well , but then those people we ca n't help everybody . marketing: i mean it could be on well , i if it were like on top of your bookcase and you usually kept it on the coffee table industrial designer: marketing: um , project manager: okay we have uh marketing: you know , well maybe we have to move along , okay . project manager: yeah , we have to move along , but i think we have some good good points to start with here . industrial designer: yeah , good point . project manager: okay , the next meeting will be in thirty minutes . i think you all did you get uh notices on your computer for this ? okay so well , you got the notice um industrial designer: me yeah . user interface: yes . project manager: uh . the working design , i guess that 's the function i_d_ uh who is this ? the industrial designer that 's you . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , it 's functional de yeah , exactly , technical . project manager: okay . so , we looking for a working design when we come back . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: uh working design , yeah , it 's it 's uh mainly technical-functional design . project manager: then and then the technical funct you are the technical function , industrial designer: yeah , functional design , project manager: so so you are the working design . industrial designer: and you project manager: so you have a working design and then a functional design . user interface: okay . project manager: and the marketing manager is coming up with some user requirement specification , like friendliness , and what we just discussed in general . that would be your idea . and , of course , price . that it , that it , that the price is a good price . i mean , the price is given , but , that was marketing: mm-hmm . we have to justify that price by having sufficient features to make it sell at that price . project manager: that 's right . that 's right . user interface: project manager: and , you know , specifi you you will get specific um instructions for that . i think that 's the end of the show . yeah . so um we have well , we have a twen two two two three minutes . um any questions at this point ? or uh suggestions ? marketing: mm . project manager: i think basically basically you will get instructions to work with and if you have any questions uh , uh i guess , you can uh user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay , i think i have enough to think about 'til our next meeting . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , even i have . marketing: how about you people ? project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah , even i have , i think , yeah . marketing: really ? okay . 'kay . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , so let 's see . marketing: alright , well uh project manager: then uh we see you in about thirty minutes . and see what we can come up with . user interface: yes . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: okay . marketing: okay , very good . project manager: okay ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah .

it should be a multi-functional gadget that would control all household machines , such as air conditioners and audio players so that it would be different from other kinds of remotes . also , the remote can either blink or beep as a response to a clap or when it is in a dark spot to help the user to locate it .

summarize the wrap up of the meeting . </s> project manager: okay . everybody ready ? marketing: okay . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: uh i think the first thing we do is introduce ourselves marketing: i think so . project manager: and everybody 's name and what your function is ? marketing: yeah , that 's a good plan . project manager: so maybe we start with you ? user interface: okay . yeah , my name is francina . and i 'm uh an user interface my role is uh the main responsibility is user interface . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and my role is to design uh a television remote control . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . marketing: and i 'm a marketing person . i wan na figure out how to sell them . project manager: mm-hmm . and your name is ? marketing: my name is eileen . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . uh i 'm jeanne-oui . um uh my role is industrial designer and my responsibilities are uh uh um deal with the technical-functional designs and specifications of user interface and dealing with user interface design . project manager: very good . and as you already know i am betty . i am the project manager for today . so why do n't we look at the presentation to see what we really are supposed to do . um . marketing: okay . project manager: yes y opening , acquaintance , tool training well , the tools are , i think , we already i guess the tool is really our the computer , as far as i can see . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: uh we get ins each of us will get instructions and we 'll take it from there . project plan , that falls under the same heading pretty much . um , i do n't think we have any great discussion at this point . marketing: no . project manager: um . here is what this thing should be . this thing we are gon na um uh design is a new remote control . uh should be original , trendy , and , of course , user friendly . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so maybe you wan na make some notes of that . marketing: okay . project manager: okay ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: all right . here is what the functional design is supposed to achieve . um . that is it 's gon na be individual work and then at the meeting we 'll discuss what uh we have come up with . the same goes for the conceptual design , there will be individual work whic and then discussion afterwards . detailed design , same thing basically . marketing: mm 'kay so three different types of design that we 're gon na be concerned with okay . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: functional , conception and detailed . project manager: i ca n't write with this thing . marketing: maybe we should redesign it . project manager: yes . industrial designer: marketing: after we 've finished the remote control we 'll get to that . project manager: yeah , okay . all right ? then , tool training try out the white board , participant can draw their favourite animal . does anybody want to go and see how the white board works ? so that in case we have to , in the next meeting , present something on the white board . you wan na go eileen and marketing: okay , i 'll see what i can do . project manager: whether you without hanging yourself . marketing: see if i r see if i remember how to draw a kitty cat or a rabbit or something . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: and remember you have to press so it works . marketing: so that it will record okay . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um uh um traditional kitty cat . project manager: fat , a fat cat . user interface: marketing: i 've a very fat cat . industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: marketing: and it likes to sit like that . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: and you 're francine , right ? would you like s like just to see um how it feels , so that you have a little idea ? user interface: yes , i 'm francina . yes , sure . project manager: in marketing: am i supposed to wipe off that or project manager: no , no . no , that 's okay . user interface: no , okay . marketing: okay . project manager: i do n't know , we 'll get to that later . marketing: okay . user interface: what should i draw ? industrial designer: snake . user interface: i 'm going to draw a snake . industrial designer: project manager: okay . user interface: how does it look like ? industrial designer: marketing: uh , okay . industrial designer: project manager: okay . marketing: i hope the kitty cat is hungry 'cause i do n't like snakes . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: here 's the project finance uh which , of course , we all have to think about when we design this thing . um selling price is supposed to be twenty five euro . uh profit aim for the company is fifty million euro , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: the market range unlimited meaning international marketing: okay . project manager: and the production cost should not exceed hopefully should be less than twelve fifty euro . marketing: mm 'kay that should keep everybody on their toes and challenged . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: profit . um is fifty mm . project manager: so these are all things , of course , to remember with the budget and when you design to materials , cost , etcetera . now , uh the discussion i guess is um does anyone of you have experience with remote control ? marketing: oops . project manager: i exp i s 'cause we we use 'em we use 'em , right , everyday . industrial designer: yeah , of course , using remote control . yeah . user interface: yes . project manager: and um now having used a remote control for years does anybody already have like an idea like things you did n't like with it , things you would like to change , things you would like to improve with this thing ye any first ideas ? would you like it to be smaller , bigger , industrial designer: uh . project manager: have more have more buttons on it or maybe clearly better marked buttons , you know , things like that ? user interface: yeah , i industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yes , i i feel that all the remote should be very compact . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: small , right . mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , those which we get here nowadays it 's very long . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and um and it should have multi-purpose . like uh the remote control which we use for tv , it shou uh it should be used f uh for some other purpose also , like controlling the uh temperature inside the house or for air-conditioners , or for heating system . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: audio player . oh . okay . project manager: so it should be a multi-functional uh gadget that would um control all your household uh uh machines basically . user interface: yes , exactly yes . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: yes . industrial designer: divides us user interface: yeah . exactly . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . marketing: at um twelve fifty euros per user interface: industrial designer: project manager: well . marketing: well who knows if we get a really good designer maybe we can do that . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: we certainly can try to i agree with her that to market something successfully it should do some more things . project manager: it should be something new it should be s it it should do something different than than just what we have . marketing: that 's right . project manager: now , of course , the other thing to think there is maybe the design . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , of course . user interface: yeah , design should be , yeah it should be different . all the almost all the remotes project manager: like trendy no like f for earlier we saw maybe it should be something trendy you know . maybe it should different colours or materials or you know . user interface: yes , exactly . industrial designer: yeah , maybe ten i do yeah , colours user interface: are different shapes . industrial designer: and al shapes also . yeah . user interface: yes . project manager: um so yeah shapes right , you know , like kidney shape feels better in your hand or something , you know . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah of course yeah . marketing: yeah okay , friendly shape , that would help . project manager: yeah . marketing: i think another thing that would help is um if it beeps when you clap , project manager: yes . marketing: because i think one of the big things that happens is people lose them . they ca n't find it . project manager: that is true , user interface: project manager: because they put a newspaper or they put it behind a plant or , we you know , whatever . marketing: industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and and they suddenly the phone rings and they want to turn the tv off and they say , where the hell is my my remote control yeah ? marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: project manager: well or yeah or if it 's really , if it 's really in a dark spot that it gives out a a sound or a signal . marketing: so some industrial designer: yeah , some beep or something like that , project manager: yeah . mm-hmm . user interface: or a b marketing: uh so , so it 's really the beep or , or a light should blink . industrial designer: so that we can go project manager: so if lost if lost uh signal with b throw signal , you know . user interface: should ha industrial designer: yeah . user interface: a fluorescent signal , yeah . marketing: mm 'kay . industrial designer: yeah , maybe it should have a light so that we can , we can just recognise where it is . project manager: exactly , i mean just that 's what i 'm saying . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . may not be beep . project manager: i 'm just saying throw signal meaning just whether it 's a beep or whether a light or industrial designer: beep or uh it 's a light , maybe it 's a light . marketing: and do you think a good c c um clue for that is that it would respond to a clap or it would respond to your voice or it would respond what what should you have to do to make it beep or blink ? project manager: okay , my my idea is maybe that the minute it 's really hidden , in in other words if it 's like in a dark spot , uh meaning you know like a newspaper is on top , a sweater is on top or it it 's behind a plant , at that moment it 's it 's like , it 's like um , what you call it a light s sensors , you know ? marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: in in that moment it has a sensor , i it it gets a certain darkness , it ge has a sensor and it gives out a signal whether that be a light signal or a beep , marketing: okay so user interface: yes . marketing: okay . project manager: i mean , that we can discuss that later , you know . industrial designer: yeah , probably yeah , probably it 's a yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah . and uh marketing: so the light sensor would activate the signal . project manager: that 's right . you know there would be industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: right you have to have some kind of sensor and i i think uh voice or clapping it 's not specific enough . uh i know there are the lamps and stuff , you know , you can clap on and off , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . project manager: but i think they only work to certain degree and marketing: but it could be someplace really obvious and you still would n't be able to find it . project manager: what with industrial designer: yeah , of course , that did n't user interface: then , in that case marketing: well , because you 're s because you 're silly . because people are silly . industrial designer: i i we ca n't do it . project manager: oh yeah well , but then those people we ca n't help everybody . marketing: i mean it could be on well , i if it were like on top of your bookcase and you usually kept it on the coffee table industrial designer: marketing: um , project manager: okay we have uh marketing: you know , well maybe we have to move along , okay . project manager: yeah , we have to move along , but i think we have some good good points to start with here . industrial designer: yeah , good point . project manager: okay , the next meeting will be in thirty minutes . i think you all did you get uh notices on your computer for this ? okay so well , you got the notice um industrial designer: me yeah . user interface: yes . project manager: uh . the working design , i guess that 's the function i_d_ uh who is this ? the industrial designer that 's you . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , it 's functional de yeah , exactly , technical . project manager: okay . so , we looking for a working design when we come back . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: uh working design , yeah , it 's it 's uh mainly technical-functional design . project manager: then and then the technical funct you are the technical function , industrial designer: yeah , functional design , project manager: so so you are the working design . industrial designer: and you project manager: so you have a working design and then a functional design . user interface: okay . project manager: and the marketing manager is coming up with some user requirement specification , like friendliness , and what we just discussed in general . that would be your idea . and , of course , price . that it , that it , that the price is a good price . i mean , the price is given , but , that was marketing: mm-hmm . we have to justify that price by having sufficient features to make it sell at that price . project manager: that 's right . that 's right . user interface: project manager: and , you know , specifi you you will get specific um instructions for that . i think that 's the end of the show . yeah . so um we have well , we have a twen two two two three minutes . um any questions at this point ? or uh suggestions ? marketing: mm . project manager: i think basically basically you will get instructions to work with and if you have any questions uh , uh i guess , you can uh user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay , i think i have enough to think about 'til our next meeting . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , even i have . marketing: how about you people ? project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah , even i have , i think , yeah . marketing: really ? okay . 'kay . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , so let 's see . marketing: alright , well uh project manager: then uh we see you in about thirty minutes . and see what we can come up with . user interface: yes . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: okay . marketing: okay , very good . project manager: okay ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah .

in the next meeting , industrial manager will be responsible for the functional and working design of the remote . marketing will be in charge of the user requirement specification such as friendliness and come up with features that justify the price of the remote .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: okay . oh , that 's not gon na work . oh , alright . okay . okay . um alright . marketing: uh , uh , um . project manager: i 'll just put that there . uh as you all know we 're here to create a brand new fantastic remote . uh i 'm nick debusk , i 'm the project manager . uh we 'll just get started with everyone kind of letting each other know who they are and what you 're doing , what your what your role is um . go ahead . marketing: okay . i am corinne whiting and i will be the marketing expert and in each of the three phases i will have a different role . in the function design phase i will be talking about user requirement specification , and this means what needs and desires are to be fulfilled , and i 'll be doing research to figure this out . in the conceptual design phase i will be dealing with trend watching and i 'll be doing marketing research on the web . and then finally in the um detailed design phase i will be doing product evaluation and so i will be collecting the requirements and ranking all the requirements to see how we did . project manager: 'kay . user interface: hiya , i 'm ryan . um i 'm the user interface designer . um likewise i 've three different roles for each stage of design . um the functional design is looking at the tex technical functions of a remote control . um in the concept design , the user interface , how the user reacts with the the product . and the detailed design um sort of like the user interface design , what they might be looking for , uh things like fashions , what makes wha how we 're gon na make it special . that 's about it . industrial designer: right . i 'm manuel and i 'm the industrial designer in in this project um . in the functional design phase i 'm i 'll be dealing mostly with the requirements , um we 'll discuss what the prog what functions the the product has to fulfil and so and so on . um i suppose we 'll work pretty much together on that one . um um in the conceptual design um i 'll be pro mostly dealing with properties and materials um of our product . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and uh the detailed design in the detailed design i 'll be concerned with the look and feel of the product itself , um so we 're pretty much working together obviously on the design front here . okay . project manager: okay . um so we 've got our opening , our our agenda is the opening , uh acquaintance which we 've kinda done . uh tool training , project plan discussion and then closing . user interface: marketing: project manager: uh grand total of twenty five minutes we have here . um so we are putting together a new remote control . um we want it to be something original . um of course we 're a not only a electronics company but a fashion um conscious electronics company , so we want it to be trendy um and we want it to be easy to use . um we 've got the functional design , conceptual design and detailed design um which basically is is the three of you um . and w uh well um functional design um . um do we have um any ideas of of maybe d let 's just throw out some ideas of what kind of remote control we want to have , and then we can go into how we 're gon na design it and and how we 're gon na do the detailing on it . user interface: yeah . well uh s function of remote control is just just you know , change channels is its main function . project manager: so we want it to be um a tv remote or i i mean do we want it to to do other things besides just be a a television remote ? user interface: oh right . i suppose you c try make it a universal remote project manager: 'kay . user interface: for could work on all sort of electrical products in in one person 's house . but , you know , they all sorta have the same role changing channels , volumes and then programming . marketing: mm . industrial designer: project manager: mm-hmm . 'kay . industrial designer: mm . user interface: i think they all work on the same prin principle as well sorta like i do n't actually know . but is it just infra-red ? is that standard ? project manager: i i think yeah , yeah , r universal remote . user interface: ye yeah . project manager: um this is my first uh go-round with creating a remote control , marketing: huh . project manager: so marketing: ours too . user interface: project manager: i think we 're all in the same boat here . um user interface: um one thing i thought of with the remote control is you always lose 'em . project manager: okay . user interface: so if there 's a g a way of finding it quite easily , i thought that 'd be quite good quite a good feature . marketing: mm . ch project manager: so we should we should set our remote control up to where it has a uh marketing: like a tracking device ? project manager: like a tracking device or or like a a user interface: oh you can get those key well you could whistle or make a noise project manager: it makes a noise , user interface: and it 'd beep . project manager: there 's a button on the tv that you press industrial designer: mm , mm . project manager: and user interface: yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: right . project manager: 'kay . marketing: be good . industrial designer: so user interface: generally , all remotes are sort of quite similar in their appearance . project manager: yeah . do we want user interface: just long . project manager: so they 're kinda like long and rectangular . user interface: yeah . project manager: do we want something crazy ? user interface: black usually . project manager: you know , we want something new that 's gon na stand out . user interface: yeah . marketing: lot more modern . project manager: a m a modern so our remote should be user interface: i think so . maybe sorta spherical or something . a ball . industrial designer: marketing: maybe like user-friendly , like a little user interface: yeah . marketing: you know , where you can use both hands , like a little keyboard type thing . user interface: people industrial designer: mm . user interface: i thought maybe , because people always tend to throw a remote control about the place to one another if it was in a ball , project manager: 'kay . user interface: and maybe the actual controls are inside or something . marketing: mm . project manager: um . industrial designer: well there are of course certain restrictions , you ca n't have it be any form and fulfil all functions at the same time , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so there are always the some restrictions we have to apply here . um however um one question is how stable is that thing supposed to be , that refers to the material , pretty much um . what are we gon na build that thing out of ? marketing: mm . industrial designer: how sturdy is it gon na be ? do we want it to last longer or rather have people whatever , have to buy one every half a year ? project manager: okay so yeah , so we want it to be sturdy , user interface: yeah . project manager: we want it to to hold up to somebody 's child , you know , throwing it across the room or , as you said , people kinda throw it , so ball-shaped , uh you know , if it were ball-shaped maybe , user interface: yeah . project manager: then it user interface: it could be cased on the outside and t everything could be inside . project manager: 'kay . um so we want it to be modern , fun , sturdy , um so our form and our function . um we want it to be um easy to find . um what else it what else do we want it to to do ? so we want it to be universal . it 's something that we 're supposed to sell for about twenty five euros um and you know , goals for profits are i think somewhere around uh fifty million euros , what they wan na make on it , so . marketing: mm . also since we 're partners of the international remote control association , maybe we wan na make it something that would globally appeal . project manager: 'kay . marketing: that 's more on the research end , but the marketing . project manager: so marketing , you know , how maybe uh marketing , you could s find out what is the most universally um appealing remote control out there . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: and maybe as far as design goes , maybe we could have different ones for different target audiences , project manager: 'kay . marketing: 'cause maybe one wo n't apply to all of the countries we 're targeting . user interface: ye small . industrial designer: right . project manager: um do you guys have any ideas for what it should look like ? maybe we could draw it up on the on the board over there . some ideas ? we want it to be a b a ball , user interface: i 'd i could draw sorta the ball idea . project manager: you know , we 'll draw up we 'll draw up the ball and maybe th um where the buttons are located . user interface: my original idea was just simply sort of a sphere , where maybe you this is where it 's connected together , and then when you open it out , it could fol it could be maybe flip , like a flip phone , and then when you fold it out the middle maybe a hinge that 'll have to be the strongest part of it . if that if we did use a hinge , or if it was just two parts , industrial designer: user interface: and then you 'd have just sorta you you you know , your buttons . thing is inside i think , sometimes remotes have too many buttons , so maybe as simple as possible , um as few buttons inside as possible . um , i dunno , what 's the idea for . just something maybe if you ha if it had like if some kind of like light or something or lights around it . it 's looking a bit like something out of star wars at the moment though , to be fair . marketing: project manager: user interface: but yeah . marketing: futuristic . industrial designer: user interface: that was that was a sorta simple idea i had project manager: uh-huh . user interface: and then you know you could about right , it would almost be like a ball . so that was just just an idea i had . i do n't know whether anybody else has other ideas ? industrial designer: right . one problem you 'd get with this design is um the ball is a nice idea because of it 's stability really , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but of course , since it 's a ball , it 'll roll , so we 'd have to have it flat on one side at least , down here somewhere , user interface: yeah . maybe f yeah . industrial designer: take away that part . that 's one of the big issues . also also you risk the hinges here . that 's that 's um a problem . user interface: yeah , that 's g that 's a good idea . yeah . the idea it did n't have to necessarily be f a hinge , industrial designer: that 's that 's interesting of course , user interface: that was just one idea though . industrial designer: but that 's of course a weak point , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: project manager: how would we go about um making you know getting rid of our weak points ? what i mean would we just have a flat spot on the bottom of the ball ? user interface: marketing: project manager: not to put you on the spot , industrial designer: e no no , project manager: but industrial designer: uh uh . project manager: what did you say your title was again ? industrial designer: n n marketing: project manager: you 're the the industrial designer . industrial designer: uh , i 'm your industrial designer , marketing: industrial designer: so i b well , project manager: industrial designer: the point is that well maybe i dunno . the shape is perhaps not the most ideal . project manager: okay . industrial designer: as as stable as it is , there must be a compromise between um stability and design here , so . user interface: well i i suppose that things become design . but i mean i marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i was trying to think of like the design of others . i ca n't think of anything other than a long rectangle for remote , project manager: yeah . user interface: maybe small , sort of fatter ones , but there 's nothing being done sort of out of left field , yeah . project manager: it 's not new , it 's not innovative , it 's you know , everybody does long remote because it 's easy , user interface: yeah . project manager: it 's it 's stable um . marketing: 'kay , i 'll draw something . project manager: so if marketing: what ? project manager: no , go ahead . marketing: my idea was just to have it be kind of like a keyboard type shape , you know , like video games user interface: yeah . marketing: l so . but maybe i mean that would be kinda big and bulky . we could also try to do the hinge thing , so it could like flip out that way . i do n't know . that 's my idea . user interface: i think definitely doing something different marketing: yeah . user interface: is a good idea . industrial designer: mm . user interface: i mean maybe design something , that 's sort of like suppose not everybody 's everybody 's hand 's the same , but something that would maybe fit in the hand easier . project manager: something with a grip . marketing: mm . yeah . user interface: yeah , with a grip . project manager: yeah . because even i suppose even with the ball user interface: it still might be hard to project manager: it 's user interface: it still not the ho easiest thing to hold , yeah . project manager: it might not be the easiest to hold onto um . industrial designer: mm . project manager: so perhaps the the joystick the the keyboard idea might work better . user interface: like yeah . project manager: but then again , people like to use one hand to flip and one hand to hold their soda , so maybe maybe we user interface: yeah . marketing: true . user interface: it 's d yeah . i think it 's definitely got to be a a one-handed a one-handed job . marketing: mm . project manager: i feel like i 'm just shooting everything down here . user interface: marketing: that 's fine . project manager: uh um marketing: you 're the boss , you 're allowed to . industrial designer: well with the one-handed design you also have the the problem of the size w 'cause you know from cell phones , they can be too small . so if the remote is too small it marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: if it 's small it probably looks better , but may not be th as functional . so for that there 's project manager: okay , so industrial designer: so project manager: unfortunately we 've got about five minutes here to come up with our um remote control idea and start rolling with it . um we 've talked about our experiences with remote control and um we 've got a couple ideas um . let 's see here . what if we had what if we had not only um say we went with the ball the ball function um , but maybe we give it sort of grips along the side s um to make it easier to hold on to . so you know um s so it 's easier to hold onto that way . user interface: yeah . project manager: course that 'll then remove some of our our ball . unless this unless this part were raised , so say the cover flips over and covers that part . so the grip is no , that would n't work either um . but if we 're gon na make it flat on the bottom , then that eliminates our ball anyways . so if it were flat on the bottom and then had the sorta grips on the side here i guess , um and then flat uh and then we have the problem with the hinge . so if we 're flat on the bottom , it 's not gon na roll away , it 'll stay where we want . industrial designer: the question is also , i dunno , d do you really always want to open that thing when you have to use it ? project manager: mm , that 's true . industrial designer: it 's probably going to lie around opened all the time anyway , so i do n't know if a lid is a good idea . from stabil stability point of view uh it certainly is , but also you have to face it and take into account the more of these things break by accident , uh the more we sell . so it 's do n't make it too stable uh . project manager: so we do n't have it flip open . we just have a ball user interface: but then maybe to go back to the to th s something along those things then . industrial designer: to the other design . project manager: okay , so then we forget the ball . industrial designer: it looks cool . marketing: looks cool though . project manager: it looks cool , but it 's really not it 's not functional um . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: uh functional . project manager: so we 've got our sort of keyboard kind . what if we flipped it around here , so that it were um sorry , that does n't look anything like what you had there . um so it 's up and down , you hold it this way . user interface: yeah . project manager: course then it 's it 's like the rectangular again , only with a couple of jutting out points . marketing: industrial designer: right . right . project manager: but it 's one-handed um . industrial designer: question is what makes those game pads functional ? w i think that 's pretty much the form for full hand . so it 's a round shape underneath that makes it comfy , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: right , marketing: mm . industrial designer: makes it nice , so that 's the essential part . except for that i think we 'll not probably not get a get away from some longer design . project manager: yeah . marketing: right . industrial designer: 'cause you also have to know which way around to point this thing . project manager: yeah , industrial designer: you know , all project manager: because it does n't have a cord , like joysticks do . industrial designer: that dif batteries right , and batteries go weak as well , so um after a while you have to point it towards the uh towards the equipment you wan na control with it , right ? so , have to m show which is the front , which is the back . project manager: is it possible to have it to where it would work with a like a sensor on either side ? so that either way you 're pointing it it would work . industrial designer: i suppose you could do that . o of course the more technology you stick in that , the more it 'll cost , so . project manager: more expensive and yeah . industrial designer: course you can do that . project manager: 'kay . um industrial designer: i mean of course it 'll be evident after a while or if you look at it , it 'll it 'll be evident which way around to point it , since you have the the numbers and the and the the buttons and stuff , project manager: true . industrial designer: but um it 's rather about an instinctual thing , user interface: put it industrial designer: like you just grab it , you do n't have to s look at it , you know , which way around to point it . otherwise the design of or the the point of putting two sensors on both sides um would probably work . user interface: even if you designed it in some in a way that you know , is n't a rectangle , but still pointed in a direction that had definite points . so if that 's your thing and you got something like that instead , marketing: yeah . user interface: and there 's your s you kn you know which way you 're gon na pointing it . project manager: 'kay . user interface: um marketing: sorry to interrupt , but we have a warning to finish . project manager: are we out of time ? industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , well , just to finish up , should we s go with this plan , start making some are good ideas , what are not . industrial designer: let 's . user interface: does it say what does it say for n industrial designer: obviously user interface: it says on there what we need to do for the next meeting , i think . project manager: uh . must finish now , so . user interface: t project manager: and then marketing will look and see what uh what people want . marketing: mm . industrial designer: alright . marketing: great . project manager: okay . and project manager will design a better meeting for next time around , be a little bit more prepared . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: and uh alright , good meeting . marketing: { vocalsound }

project manager introduced a new remote control project . the team started to know each other by introducing their roles in this project . project manager then invited everyone to raise ideas about the remote . their discussion included its versatility , anti-loss design and possible appearance , but there was no final decision on these matters . the team agreed that the remote control should be one-handed , user-friendly and globally attractive . in addition , they noticed that these ideas should be realized under the price target and balance the stability and design sense of the remote control .

what did the group discuss about remote control functional design ? </s> project manager: okay . oh , that 's not gon na work . oh , alright . okay . okay . um alright . marketing: uh , uh , um . project manager: i 'll just put that there . uh as you all know we 're here to create a brand new fantastic remote . uh i 'm nick debusk , i 'm the project manager . uh we 'll just get started with everyone kind of letting each other know who they are and what you 're doing , what your what your role is um . go ahead . marketing: okay . i am corinne whiting and i will be the marketing expert and in each of the three phases i will have a different role . in the function design phase i will be talking about user requirement specification , and this means what needs and desires are to be fulfilled , and i 'll be doing research to figure this out . in the conceptual design phase i will be dealing with trend watching and i 'll be doing marketing research on the web . and then finally in the um detailed design phase i will be doing product evaluation and so i will be collecting the requirements and ranking all the requirements to see how we did . project manager: 'kay . user interface: hiya , i 'm ryan . um i 'm the user interface designer . um likewise i 've three different roles for each stage of design . um the functional design is looking at the tex technical functions of a remote control . um in the concept design , the user interface , how the user reacts with the the product . and the detailed design um sort of like the user interface design , what they might be looking for , uh things like fashions , what makes wha how we 're gon na make it special . that 's about it . industrial designer: right . i 'm manuel and i 'm the industrial designer in in this project um . in the functional design phase i 'm i 'll be dealing mostly with the requirements , um we 'll discuss what the prog what functions the the product has to fulfil and so and so on . um i suppose we 'll work pretty much together on that one . um um in the conceptual design um i 'll be pro mostly dealing with properties and materials um of our product . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and uh the detailed design in the detailed design i 'll be concerned with the look and feel of the product itself , um so we 're pretty much working together obviously on the design front here . okay . project manager: okay . um so we 've got our opening , our our agenda is the opening , uh acquaintance which we 've kinda done . uh tool training , project plan discussion and then closing . user interface: marketing: project manager: uh grand total of twenty five minutes we have here . um so we are putting together a new remote control . um we want it to be something original . um of course we 're a not only a electronics company but a fashion um conscious electronics company , so we want it to be trendy um and we want it to be easy to use . um we 've got the functional design , conceptual design and detailed design um which basically is is the three of you um . and w uh well um functional design um . um do we have um any ideas of of maybe d let 's just throw out some ideas of what kind of remote control we want to have , and then we can go into how we 're gon na design it and and how we 're gon na do the detailing on it . user interface: yeah . well uh s function of remote control is just just you know , change channels is its main function . project manager: so we want it to be um a tv remote or i i mean do we want it to to do other things besides just be a a television remote ? user interface: oh right . i suppose you c try make it a universal remote project manager: 'kay . user interface: for could work on all sort of electrical products in in one person 's house . but , you know , they all sorta have the same role changing channels , volumes and then programming . marketing: mm . industrial designer: project manager: mm-hmm . 'kay . industrial designer: mm . user interface: i think they all work on the same prin principle as well sorta like i do n't actually know . but is it just infra-red ? is that standard ? project manager: i i think yeah , yeah , r universal remote . user interface: ye yeah . project manager: um this is my first uh go-round with creating a remote control , marketing: huh . project manager: so marketing: ours too . user interface: project manager: i think we 're all in the same boat here . um user interface: um one thing i thought of with the remote control is you always lose 'em . project manager: okay . user interface: so if there 's a g a way of finding it quite easily , i thought that 'd be quite good quite a good feature . marketing: mm . ch project manager: so we should we should set our remote control up to where it has a uh marketing: like a tracking device ? project manager: like a tracking device or or like a a user interface: oh you can get those key well you could whistle or make a noise project manager: it makes a noise , user interface: and it 'd beep . project manager: there 's a button on the tv that you press industrial designer: mm , mm . project manager: and user interface: yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: right . project manager: 'kay . marketing: be good . industrial designer: so user interface: generally , all remotes are sort of quite similar in their appearance . project manager: yeah . do we want user interface: just long . project manager: so they 're kinda like long and rectangular . user interface: yeah . project manager: do we want something crazy ? user interface: black usually . project manager: you know , we want something new that 's gon na stand out . user interface: yeah . marketing: lot more modern . project manager: a m a modern so our remote should be user interface: i think so . maybe sorta spherical or something . a ball . industrial designer: marketing: maybe like user-friendly , like a little user interface: yeah . marketing: you know , where you can use both hands , like a little keyboard type thing . user interface: people industrial designer: mm . user interface: i thought maybe , because people always tend to throw a remote control about the place to one another if it was in a ball , project manager: 'kay . user interface: and maybe the actual controls are inside or something . marketing: mm . project manager: um . industrial designer: well there are of course certain restrictions , you ca n't have it be any form and fulfil all functions at the same time , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so there are always the some restrictions we have to apply here . um however um one question is how stable is that thing supposed to be , that refers to the material , pretty much um . what are we gon na build that thing out of ? marketing: mm . industrial designer: how sturdy is it gon na be ? do we want it to last longer or rather have people whatever , have to buy one every half a year ? project manager: okay so yeah , so we want it to be sturdy , user interface: yeah . project manager: we want it to to hold up to somebody 's child , you know , throwing it across the room or , as you said , people kinda throw it , so ball-shaped , uh you know , if it were ball-shaped maybe , user interface: yeah . project manager: then it user interface: it could be cased on the outside and t everything could be inside . project manager: 'kay . um so we want it to be modern , fun , sturdy , um so our form and our function . um we want it to be um easy to find . um what else it what else do we want it to to do ? so we want it to be universal . it 's something that we 're supposed to sell for about twenty five euros um and you know , goals for profits are i think somewhere around uh fifty million euros , what they wan na make on it , so . marketing: mm . also since we 're partners of the international remote control association , maybe we wan na make it something that would globally appeal . project manager: 'kay . marketing: that 's more on the research end , but the marketing . project manager: so marketing , you know , how maybe uh marketing , you could s find out what is the most universally um appealing remote control out there . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: and maybe as far as design goes , maybe we could have different ones for different target audiences , project manager: 'kay . marketing: 'cause maybe one wo n't apply to all of the countries we 're targeting . user interface: ye small . industrial designer: right . project manager: um do you guys have any ideas for what it should look like ? maybe we could draw it up on the on the board over there . some ideas ? we want it to be a b a ball , user interface: i 'd i could draw sorta the ball idea . project manager: you know , we 'll draw up we 'll draw up the ball and maybe th um where the buttons are located . user interface: my original idea was just simply sort of a sphere , where maybe you this is where it 's connected together , and then when you open it out , it could fol it could be maybe flip , like a flip phone , and then when you fold it out the middle maybe a hinge that 'll have to be the strongest part of it . if that if we did use a hinge , or if it was just two parts , industrial designer: user interface: and then you 'd have just sorta you you you know , your buttons . thing is inside i think , sometimes remotes have too many buttons , so maybe as simple as possible , um as few buttons inside as possible . um , i dunno , what 's the idea for . just something maybe if you ha if it had like if some kind of like light or something or lights around it . it 's looking a bit like something out of star wars at the moment though , to be fair . marketing: project manager: user interface: but yeah . marketing: futuristic . industrial designer: user interface: that was that was a sorta simple idea i had project manager: uh-huh . user interface: and then you know you could about right , it would almost be like a ball . so that was just just an idea i had . i do n't know whether anybody else has other ideas ? industrial designer: right . one problem you 'd get with this design is um the ball is a nice idea because of it 's stability really , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but of course , since it 's a ball , it 'll roll , so we 'd have to have it flat on one side at least , down here somewhere , user interface: yeah . maybe f yeah . industrial designer: take away that part . that 's one of the big issues . also also you risk the hinges here . that 's that 's um a problem . user interface: yeah , that 's g that 's a good idea . yeah . the idea it did n't have to necessarily be f a hinge , industrial designer: that 's that 's interesting of course , user interface: that was just one idea though . industrial designer: but that 's of course a weak point , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: project manager: how would we go about um making you know getting rid of our weak points ? what i mean would we just have a flat spot on the bottom of the ball ? user interface: marketing: project manager: not to put you on the spot , industrial designer: e no no , project manager: but industrial designer: uh uh . project manager: what did you say your title was again ? industrial designer: n n marketing: project manager: you 're the the industrial designer . industrial designer: uh , i 'm your industrial designer , marketing: industrial designer: so i b well , project manager: industrial designer: the point is that well maybe i dunno . the shape is perhaps not the most ideal . project manager: okay . industrial designer: as as stable as it is , there must be a compromise between um stability and design here , so . user interface: well i i suppose that things become design . but i mean i marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i was trying to think of like the design of others . i ca n't think of anything other than a long rectangle for remote , project manager: yeah . user interface: maybe small , sort of fatter ones , but there 's nothing being done sort of out of left field , yeah . project manager: it 's not new , it 's not innovative , it 's you know , everybody does long remote because it 's easy , user interface: yeah . project manager: it 's it 's stable um . marketing: 'kay , i 'll draw something . project manager: so if marketing: what ? project manager: no , go ahead . marketing: my idea was just to have it be kind of like a keyboard type shape , you know , like video games user interface: yeah . marketing: l so . but maybe i mean that would be kinda big and bulky . we could also try to do the hinge thing , so it could like flip out that way . i do n't know . that 's my idea . user interface: i think definitely doing something different marketing: yeah . user interface: is a good idea . industrial designer: mm . user interface: i mean maybe design something , that 's sort of like suppose not everybody 's everybody 's hand 's the same , but something that would maybe fit in the hand easier . project manager: something with a grip . marketing: mm . yeah . user interface: yeah , with a grip . project manager: yeah . because even i suppose even with the ball user interface: it still might be hard to project manager: it 's user interface: it still not the ho easiest thing to hold , yeah . project manager: it might not be the easiest to hold onto um . industrial designer: mm . project manager: so perhaps the the joystick the the keyboard idea might work better . user interface: like yeah . project manager: but then again , people like to use one hand to flip and one hand to hold their soda , so maybe maybe we user interface: yeah . marketing: true . user interface: it 's d yeah . i think it 's definitely got to be a a one-handed a one-handed job . marketing: mm . project manager: i feel like i 'm just shooting everything down here . user interface: marketing: that 's fine . project manager: uh um marketing: you 're the boss , you 're allowed to . industrial designer: well with the one-handed design you also have the the problem of the size w 'cause you know from cell phones , they can be too small . so if the remote is too small it marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: if it 's small it probably looks better , but may not be th as functional . so for that there 's project manager: okay , so industrial designer: so project manager: unfortunately we 've got about five minutes here to come up with our um remote control idea and start rolling with it . um we 've talked about our experiences with remote control and um we 've got a couple ideas um . let 's see here . what if we had what if we had not only um say we went with the ball the ball function um , but maybe we give it sort of grips along the side s um to make it easier to hold on to . so you know um s so it 's easier to hold onto that way . user interface: yeah . project manager: course that 'll then remove some of our our ball . unless this unless this part were raised , so say the cover flips over and covers that part . so the grip is no , that would n't work either um . but if we 're gon na make it flat on the bottom , then that eliminates our ball anyways . so if it were flat on the bottom and then had the sorta grips on the side here i guess , um and then flat uh and then we have the problem with the hinge . so if we 're flat on the bottom , it 's not gon na roll away , it 'll stay where we want . industrial designer: the question is also , i dunno , d do you really always want to open that thing when you have to use it ? project manager: mm , that 's true . industrial designer: it 's probably going to lie around opened all the time anyway , so i do n't know if a lid is a good idea . from stabil stability point of view uh it certainly is , but also you have to face it and take into account the more of these things break by accident , uh the more we sell . so it 's do n't make it too stable uh . project manager: so we do n't have it flip open . we just have a ball user interface: but then maybe to go back to the to th s something along those things then . industrial designer: to the other design . project manager: okay , so then we forget the ball . industrial designer: it looks cool . marketing: looks cool though . project manager: it looks cool , but it 's really not it 's not functional um . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: uh functional . project manager: so we 've got our sort of keyboard kind . what if we flipped it around here , so that it were um sorry , that does n't look anything like what you had there . um so it 's up and down , you hold it this way . user interface: yeah . project manager: course then it 's it 's like the rectangular again , only with a couple of jutting out points . marketing: industrial designer: right . right . project manager: but it 's one-handed um . industrial designer: question is what makes those game pads functional ? w i think that 's pretty much the form for full hand . so it 's a round shape underneath that makes it comfy , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: right , marketing: mm . industrial designer: makes it nice , so that 's the essential part . except for that i think we 'll not probably not get a get away from some longer design . project manager: yeah . marketing: right . industrial designer: 'cause you also have to know which way around to point this thing . project manager: yeah , industrial designer: you know , all project manager: because it does n't have a cord , like joysticks do . industrial designer: that dif batteries right , and batteries go weak as well , so um after a while you have to point it towards the uh towards the equipment you wan na control with it , right ? so , have to m show which is the front , which is the back . project manager: is it possible to have it to where it would work with a like a sensor on either side ? so that either way you 're pointing it it would work . industrial designer: i suppose you could do that . o of course the more technology you stick in that , the more it 'll cost , so . project manager: more expensive and yeah . industrial designer: course you can do that . project manager: 'kay . um industrial designer: i mean of course it 'll be evident after a while or if you look at it , it 'll it 'll be evident which way around to point it , since you have the the numbers and the and the the buttons and stuff , project manager: true . industrial designer: but um it 's rather about an instinctual thing , user interface: put it industrial designer: like you just grab it , you do n't have to s look at it , you know , which way around to point it . otherwise the design of or the the point of putting two sensors on both sides um would probably work . user interface: even if you designed it in some in a way that you know , is n't a rectangle , but still pointed in a direction that had definite points . so if that 's your thing and you got something like that instead , marketing: yeah . user interface: and there 's your s you kn you know which way you 're gon na pointing it . project manager: 'kay . user interface: um marketing: sorry to interrupt , but we have a warning to finish . project manager: are we out of time ? industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , well , just to finish up , should we s go with this plan , start making some are good ideas , what are not . industrial designer: let 's . user interface: does it say what does it say for n industrial designer: obviously user interface: it says on there what we need to do for the next meeting , i think . project manager: uh . must finish now , so . user interface: t project manager: and then marketing will look and see what uh what people want . marketing: mm . industrial designer: alright . marketing: great . project manager: okay . and project manager will design a better meeting for next time around , be a little bit more prepared . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: and uh alright , good meeting . marketing: { vocalsound }

user interface thought that changing channels is the basic function of the remote control , but can also be turned into a universal remote control . based on the reality that the remote control is often lost in our life , he thought that they should add anti loss design into it . marketing further proposed that tracking devices can be used , and industrial designer agreed that some beeps or vibrations can be added . project manager thought they needed to design a trendy , interesting and sturdy remote control .

summarize group discussion on remote control appearance and function design ? </s> project manager: okay . oh , that 's not gon na work . oh , alright . okay . okay . um alright . marketing: uh , uh , um . project manager: i 'll just put that there . uh as you all know we 're here to create a brand new fantastic remote . uh i 'm nick debusk , i 'm the project manager . uh we 'll just get started with everyone kind of letting each other know who they are and what you 're doing , what your what your role is um . go ahead . marketing: okay . i am corinne whiting and i will be the marketing expert and in each of the three phases i will have a different role . in the function design phase i will be talking about user requirement specification , and this means what needs and desires are to be fulfilled , and i 'll be doing research to figure this out . in the conceptual design phase i will be dealing with trend watching and i 'll be doing marketing research on the web . and then finally in the um detailed design phase i will be doing product evaluation and so i will be collecting the requirements and ranking all the requirements to see how we did . project manager: 'kay . user interface: hiya , i 'm ryan . um i 'm the user interface designer . um likewise i 've three different roles for each stage of design . um the functional design is looking at the tex technical functions of a remote control . um in the concept design , the user interface , how the user reacts with the the product . and the detailed design um sort of like the user interface design , what they might be looking for , uh things like fashions , what makes wha how we 're gon na make it special . that 's about it . industrial designer: right . i 'm manuel and i 'm the industrial designer in in this project um . in the functional design phase i 'm i 'll be dealing mostly with the requirements , um we 'll discuss what the prog what functions the the product has to fulfil and so and so on . um i suppose we 'll work pretty much together on that one . um um in the conceptual design um i 'll be pro mostly dealing with properties and materials um of our product . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and uh the detailed design in the detailed design i 'll be concerned with the look and feel of the product itself , um so we 're pretty much working together obviously on the design front here . okay . project manager: okay . um so we 've got our opening , our our agenda is the opening , uh acquaintance which we 've kinda done . uh tool training , project plan discussion and then closing . user interface: marketing: project manager: uh grand total of twenty five minutes we have here . um so we are putting together a new remote control . um we want it to be something original . um of course we 're a not only a electronics company but a fashion um conscious electronics company , so we want it to be trendy um and we want it to be easy to use . um we 've got the functional design , conceptual design and detailed design um which basically is is the three of you um . and w uh well um functional design um . um do we have um any ideas of of maybe d let 's just throw out some ideas of what kind of remote control we want to have , and then we can go into how we 're gon na design it and and how we 're gon na do the detailing on it . user interface: yeah . well uh s function of remote control is just just you know , change channels is its main function . project manager: so we want it to be um a tv remote or i i mean do we want it to to do other things besides just be a a television remote ? user interface: oh right . i suppose you c try make it a universal remote project manager: 'kay . user interface: for could work on all sort of electrical products in in one person 's house . but , you know , they all sorta have the same role changing channels , volumes and then programming . marketing: mm . industrial designer: project manager: mm-hmm . 'kay . industrial designer: mm . user interface: i think they all work on the same prin principle as well sorta like i do n't actually know . but is it just infra-red ? is that standard ? project manager: i i think yeah , yeah , r universal remote . user interface: ye yeah . project manager: um this is my first uh go-round with creating a remote control , marketing: huh . project manager: so marketing: ours too . user interface: project manager: i think we 're all in the same boat here . um user interface: um one thing i thought of with the remote control is you always lose 'em . project manager: okay . user interface: so if there 's a g a way of finding it quite easily , i thought that 'd be quite good quite a good feature . marketing: mm . ch project manager: so we should we should set our remote control up to where it has a uh marketing: like a tracking device ? project manager: like a tracking device or or like a a user interface: oh you can get those key well you could whistle or make a noise project manager: it makes a noise , user interface: and it 'd beep . project manager: there 's a button on the tv that you press industrial designer: mm , mm . project manager: and user interface: yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: right . project manager: 'kay . marketing: be good . industrial designer: so user interface: generally , all remotes are sort of quite similar in their appearance . project manager: yeah . do we want user interface: just long . project manager: so they 're kinda like long and rectangular . user interface: yeah . project manager: do we want something crazy ? user interface: black usually . project manager: you know , we want something new that 's gon na stand out . user interface: yeah . marketing: lot more modern . project manager: a m a modern so our remote should be user interface: i think so . maybe sorta spherical or something . a ball . industrial designer: marketing: maybe like user-friendly , like a little user interface: yeah . marketing: you know , where you can use both hands , like a little keyboard type thing . user interface: people industrial designer: mm . user interface: i thought maybe , because people always tend to throw a remote control about the place to one another if it was in a ball , project manager: 'kay . user interface: and maybe the actual controls are inside or something . marketing: mm . project manager: um . industrial designer: well there are of course certain restrictions , you ca n't have it be any form and fulfil all functions at the same time , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so there are always the some restrictions we have to apply here . um however um one question is how stable is that thing supposed to be , that refers to the material , pretty much um . what are we gon na build that thing out of ? marketing: mm . industrial designer: how sturdy is it gon na be ? do we want it to last longer or rather have people whatever , have to buy one every half a year ? project manager: okay so yeah , so we want it to be sturdy , user interface: yeah . project manager: we want it to to hold up to somebody 's child , you know , throwing it across the room or , as you said , people kinda throw it , so ball-shaped , uh you know , if it were ball-shaped maybe , user interface: yeah . project manager: then it user interface: it could be cased on the outside and t everything could be inside . project manager: 'kay . um so we want it to be modern , fun , sturdy , um so our form and our function . um we want it to be um easy to find . um what else it what else do we want it to to do ? so we want it to be universal . it 's something that we 're supposed to sell for about twenty five euros um and you know , goals for profits are i think somewhere around uh fifty million euros , what they wan na make on it , so . marketing: mm . also since we 're partners of the international remote control association , maybe we wan na make it something that would globally appeal . project manager: 'kay . marketing: that 's more on the research end , but the marketing . project manager: so marketing , you know , how maybe uh marketing , you could s find out what is the most universally um appealing remote control out there . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: and maybe as far as design goes , maybe we could have different ones for different target audiences , project manager: 'kay . marketing: 'cause maybe one wo n't apply to all of the countries we 're targeting . user interface: ye small . industrial designer: right . project manager: um do you guys have any ideas for what it should look like ? maybe we could draw it up on the on the board over there . some ideas ? we want it to be a b a ball , user interface: i 'd i could draw sorta the ball idea . project manager: you know , we 'll draw up we 'll draw up the ball and maybe th um where the buttons are located . user interface: my original idea was just simply sort of a sphere , where maybe you this is where it 's connected together , and then when you open it out , it could fol it could be maybe flip , like a flip phone , and then when you fold it out the middle maybe a hinge that 'll have to be the strongest part of it . if that if we did use a hinge , or if it was just two parts , industrial designer: user interface: and then you 'd have just sorta you you you know , your buttons . thing is inside i think , sometimes remotes have too many buttons , so maybe as simple as possible , um as few buttons inside as possible . um , i dunno , what 's the idea for . just something maybe if you ha if it had like if some kind of like light or something or lights around it . it 's looking a bit like something out of star wars at the moment though , to be fair . marketing: project manager: user interface: but yeah . marketing: futuristic . industrial designer: user interface: that was that was a sorta simple idea i had project manager: uh-huh . user interface: and then you know you could about right , it would almost be like a ball . so that was just just an idea i had . i do n't know whether anybody else has other ideas ? industrial designer: right . one problem you 'd get with this design is um the ball is a nice idea because of it 's stability really , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but of course , since it 's a ball , it 'll roll , so we 'd have to have it flat on one side at least , down here somewhere , user interface: yeah . maybe f yeah . industrial designer: take away that part . that 's one of the big issues . also also you risk the hinges here . that 's that 's um a problem . user interface: yeah , that 's g that 's a good idea . yeah . the idea it did n't have to necessarily be f a hinge , industrial designer: that 's that 's interesting of course , user interface: that was just one idea though . industrial designer: but that 's of course a weak point , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: project manager: how would we go about um making you know getting rid of our weak points ? what i mean would we just have a flat spot on the bottom of the ball ? user interface: marketing: project manager: not to put you on the spot , industrial designer: e no no , project manager: but industrial designer: uh uh . project manager: what did you say your title was again ? industrial designer: n n marketing: project manager: you 're the the industrial designer . industrial designer: uh , i 'm your industrial designer , marketing: industrial designer: so i b well , project manager: industrial designer: the point is that well maybe i dunno . the shape is perhaps not the most ideal . project manager: okay . industrial designer: as as stable as it is , there must be a compromise between um stability and design here , so . user interface: well i i suppose that things become design . but i mean i marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i was trying to think of like the design of others . i ca n't think of anything other than a long rectangle for remote , project manager: yeah . user interface: maybe small , sort of fatter ones , but there 's nothing being done sort of out of left field , yeah . project manager: it 's not new , it 's not innovative , it 's you know , everybody does long remote because it 's easy , user interface: yeah . project manager: it 's it 's stable um . marketing: 'kay , i 'll draw something . project manager: so if marketing: what ? project manager: no , go ahead . marketing: my idea was just to have it be kind of like a keyboard type shape , you know , like video games user interface: yeah . marketing: l so . but maybe i mean that would be kinda big and bulky . we could also try to do the hinge thing , so it could like flip out that way . i do n't know . that 's my idea . user interface: i think definitely doing something different marketing: yeah . user interface: is a good idea . industrial designer: mm . user interface: i mean maybe design something , that 's sort of like suppose not everybody 's everybody 's hand 's the same , but something that would maybe fit in the hand easier . project manager: something with a grip . marketing: mm . yeah . user interface: yeah , with a grip . project manager: yeah . because even i suppose even with the ball user interface: it still might be hard to project manager: it 's user interface: it still not the ho easiest thing to hold , yeah . project manager: it might not be the easiest to hold onto um . industrial designer: mm . project manager: so perhaps the the joystick the the keyboard idea might work better . user interface: like yeah . project manager: but then again , people like to use one hand to flip and one hand to hold their soda , so maybe maybe we user interface: yeah . marketing: true . user interface: it 's d yeah . i think it 's definitely got to be a a one-handed a one-handed job . marketing: mm . project manager: i feel like i 'm just shooting everything down here . user interface: marketing: that 's fine . project manager: uh um marketing: you 're the boss , you 're allowed to . industrial designer: well with the one-handed design you also have the the problem of the size w 'cause you know from cell phones , they can be too small . so if the remote is too small it marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: if it 's small it probably looks better , but may not be th as functional . so for that there 's project manager: okay , so industrial designer: so project manager: unfortunately we 've got about five minutes here to come up with our um remote control idea and start rolling with it . um we 've talked about our experiences with remote control and um we 've got a couple ideas um . let 's see here . what if we had what if we had not only um say we went with the ball the ball function um , but maybe we give it sort of grips along the side s um to make it easier to hold on to . so you know um s so it 's easier to hold onto that way . user interface: yeah . project manager: course that 'll then remove some of our our ball . unless this unless this part were raised , so say the cover flips over and covers that part . so the grip is no , that would n't work either um . but if we 're gon na make it flat on the bottom , then that eliminates our ball anyways . so if it were flat on the bottom and then had the sorta grips on the side here i guess , um and then flat uh and then we have the problem with the hinge . so if we 're flat on the bottom , it 's not gon na roll away , it 'll stay where we want . industrial designer: the question is also , i dunno , d do you really always want to open that thing when you have to use it ? project manager: mm , that 's true . industrial designer: it 's probably going to lie around opened all the time anyway , so i do n't know if a lid is a good idea . from stabil stability point of view uh it certainly is , but also you have to face it and take into account the more of these things break by accident , uh the more we sell . so it 's do n't make it too stable uh . project manager: so we do n't have it flip open . we just have a ball user interface: but then maybe to go back to the to th s something along those things then . industrial designer: to the other design . project manager: okay , so then we forget the ball . industrial designer: it looks cool . marketing: looks cool though . project manager: it looks cool , but it 's really not it 's not functional um . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: uh functional . project manager: so we 've got our sort of keyboard kind . what if we flipped it around here , so that it were um sorry , that does n't look anything like what you had there . um so it 's up and down , you hold it this way . user interface: yeah . project manager: course then it 's it 's like the rectangular again , only with a couple of jutting out points . marketing: industrial designer: right . right . project manager: but it 's one-handed um . industrial designer: question is what makes those game pads functional ? w i think that 's pretty much the form for full hand . so it 's a round shape underneath that makes it comfy , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: right , marketing: mm . industrial designer: makes it nice , so that 's the essential part . except for that i think we 'll not probably not get a get away from some longer design . project manager: yeah . marketing: right . industrial designer: 'cause you also have to know which way around to point this thing . project manager: yeah , industrial designer: you know , all project manager: because it does n't have a cord , like joysticks do . industrial designer: that dif batteries right , and batteries go weak as well , so um after a while you have to point it towards the uh towards the equipment you wan na control with it , right ? so , have to m show which is the front , which is the back . project manager: is it possible to have it to where it would work with a like a sensor on either side ? so that either way you 're pointing it it would work . industrial designer: i suppose you could do that . o of course the more technology you stick in that , the more it 'll cost , so . project manager: more expensive and yeah . industrial designer: course you can do that . project manager: 'kay . um industrial designer: i mean of course it 'll be evident after a while or if you look at it , it 'll it 'll be evident which way around to point it , since you have the the numbers and the and the the buttons and stuff , project manager: true . industrial designer: but um it 's rather about an instinctual thing , user interface: put it industrial designer: like you just grab it , you do n't have to s look at it , you know , which way around to point it . otherwise the design of or the the point of putting two sensors on both sides um would probably work . user interface: even if you designed it in some in a way that you know , is n't a rectangle , but still pointed in a direction that had definite points . so if that 's your thing and you got something like that instead , marketing: yeah . user interface: and there 's your s you kn you know which way you 're gon na pointing it . project manager: 'kay . user interface: um marketing: sorry to interrupt , but we have a warning to finish . project manager: are we out of time ? industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , well , just to finish up , should we s go with this plan , start making some are good ideas , what are not . industrial designer: let 's . user interface: does it say what does it say for n industrial designer: obviously user interface: it says on there what we need to do for the next meeting , i think . project manager: uh . must finish now , so . user interface: t project manager: and then marketing will look and see what uh what people want . marketing: mm . industrial designer: alright . marketing: great . project manager: okay . and project manager will design a better meeting for next time around , be a little bit more prepared . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: and uh alright , good meeting . marketing: { vocalsound }

user interface proposed that they can design a fashionable and modern spherical remote controller , reduce buttons to make it simple , and connect several parts of the remote control with hinges . marketing put forward the keyboard shape remote control , using the handle to make it more user-friendly . project manager further proposed the idea of a joystick keyboard .

summarize the discussion about possible detailed designings of remote control ? </s> project manager: okay . oh , that 's not gon na work . oh , alright . okay . okay . um alright . marketing: uh , uh , um . project manager: i 'll just put that there . uh as you all know we 're here to create a brand new fantastic remote . uh i 'm nick debusk , i 'm the project manager . uh we 'll just get started with everyone kind of letting each other know who they are and what you 're doing , what your what your role is um . go ahead . marketing: okay . i am corinne whiting and i will be the marketing expert and in each of the three phases i will have a different role . in the function design phase i will be talking about user requirement specification , and this means what needs and desires are to be fulfilled , and i 'll be doing research to figure this out . in the conceptual design phase i will be dealing with trend watching and i 'll be doing marketing research on the web . and then finally in the um detailed design phase i will be doing product evaluation and so i will be collecting the requirements and ranking all the requirements to see how we did . project manager: 'kay . user interface: hiya , i 'm ryan . um i 'm the user interface designer . um likewise i 've three different roles for each stage of design . um the functional design is looking at the tex technical functions of a remote control . um in the concept design , the user interface , how the user reacts with the the product . and the detailed design um sort of like the user interface design , what they might be looking for , uh things like fashions , what makes wha how we 're gon na make it special . that 's about it . industrial designer: right . i 'm manuel and i 'm the industrial designer in in this project um . in the functional design phase i 'm i 'll be dealing mostly with the requirements , um we 'll discuss what the prog what functions the the product has to fulfil and so and so on . um i suppose we 'll work pretty much together on that one . um um in the conceptual design um i 'll be pro mostly dealing with properties and materials um of our product . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and uh the detailed design in the detailed design i 'll be concerned with the look and feel of the product itself , um so we 're pretty much working together obviously on the design front here . okay . project manager: okay . um so we 've got our opening , our our agenda is the opening , uh acquaintance which we 've kinda done . uh tool training , project plan discussion and then closing . user interface: marketing: project manager: uh grand total of twenty five minutes we have here . um so we are putting together a new remote control . um we want it to be something original . um of course we 're a not only a electronics company but a fashion um conscious electronics company , so we want it to be trendy um and we want it to be easy to use . um we 've got the functional design , conceptual design and detailed design um which basically is is the three of you um . and w uh well um functional design um . um do we have um any ideas of of maybe d let 's just throw out some ideas of what kind of remote control we want to have , and then we can go into how we 're gon na design it and and how we 're gon na do the detailing on it . user interface: yeah . well uh s function of remote control is just just you know , change channels is its main function . project manager: so we want it to be um a tv remote or i i mean do we want it to to do other things besides just be a a television remote ? user interface: oh right . i suppose you c try make it a universal remote project manager: 'kay . user interface: for could work on all sort of electrical products in in one person 's house . but , you know , they all sorta have the same role changing channels , volumes and then programming . marketing: mm . industrial designer: project manager: mm-hmm . 'kay . industrial designer: mm . user interface: i think they all work on the same prin principle as well sorta like i do n't actually know . but is it just infra-red ? is that standard ? project manager: i i think yeah , yeah , r universal remote . user interface: ye yeah . project manager: um this is my first uh go-round with creating a remote control , marketing: huh . project manager: so marketing: ours too . user interface: project manager: i think we 're all in the same boat here . um user interface: um one thing i thought of with the remote control is you always lose 'em . project manager: okay . user interface: so if there 's a g a way of finding it quite easily , i thought that 'd be quite good quite a good feature . marketing: mm . ch project manager: so we should we should set our remote control up to where it has a uh marketing: like a tracking device ? project manager: like a tracking device or or like a a user interface: oh you can get those key well you could whistle or make a noise project manager: it makes a noise , user interface: and it 'd beep . project manager: there 's a button on the tv that you press industrial designer: mm , mm . project manager: and user interface: yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: right . project manager: 'kay . marketing: be good . industrial designer: so user interface: generally , all remotes are sort of quite similar in their appearance . project manager: yeah . do we want user interface: just long . project manager: so they 're kinda like long and rectangular . user interface: yeah . project manager: do we want something crazy ? user interface: black usually . project manager: you know , we want something new that 's gon na stand out . user interface: yeah . marketing: lot more modern . project manager: a m a modern so our remote should be user interface: i think so . maybe sorta spherical or something . a ball . industrial designer: marketing: maybe like user-friendly , like a little user interface: yeah . marketing: you know , where you can use both hands , like a little keyboard type thing . user interface: people industrial designer: mm . user interface: i thought maybe , because people always tend to throw a remote control about the place to one another if it was in a ball , project manager: 'kay . user interface: and maybe the actual controls are inside or something . marketing: mm . project manager: um . industrial designer: well there are of course certain restrictions , you ca n't have it be any form and fulfil all functions at the same time , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so there are always the some restrictions we have to apply here . um however um one question is how stable is that thing supposed to be , that refers to the material , pretty much um . what are we gon na build that thing out of ? marketing: mm . industrial designer: how sturdy is it gon na be ? do we want it to last longer or rather have people whatever , have to buy one every half a year ? project manager: okay so yeah , so we want it to be sturdy , user interface: yeah . project manager: we want it to to hold up to somebody 's child , you know , throwing it across the room or , as you said , people kinda throw it , so ball-shaped , uh you know , if it were ball-shaped maybe , user interface: yeah . project manager: then it user interface: it could be cased on the outside and t everything could be inside . project manager: 'kay . um so we want it to be modern , fun , sturdy , um so our form and our function . um we want it to be um easy to find . um what else it what else do we want it to to do ? so we want it to be universal . it 's something that we 're supposed to sell for about twenty five euros um and you know , goals for profits are i think somewhere around uh fifty million euros , what they wan na make on it , so . marketing: mm . also since we 're partners of the international remote control association , maybe we wan na make it something that would globally appeal . project manager: 'kay . marketing: that 's more on the research end , but the marketing . project manager: so marketing , you know , how maybe uh marketing , you could s find out what is the most universally um appealing remote control out there . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: and maybe as far as design goes , maybe we could have different ones for different target audiences , project manager: 'kay . marketing: 'cause maybe one wo n't apply to all of the countries we 're targeting . user interface: ye small . industrial designer: right . project manager: um do you guys have any ideas for what it should look like ? maybe we could draw it up on the on the board over there . some ideas ? we want it to be a b a ball , user interface: i 'd i could draw sorta the ball idea . project manager: you know , we 'll draw up we 'll draw up the ball and maybe th um where the buttons are located . user interface: my original idea was just simply sort of a sphere , where maybe you this is where it 's connected together , and then when you open it out , it could fol it could be maybe flip , like a flip phone , and then when you fold it out the middle maybe a hinge that 'll have to be the strongest part of it . if that if we did use a hinge , or if it was just two parts , industrial designer: user interface: and then you 'd have just sorta you you you know , your buttons . thing is inside i think , sometimes remotes have too many buttons , so maybe as simple as possible , um as few buttons inside as possible . um , i dunno , what 's the idea for . just something maybe if you ha if it had like if some kind of like light or something or lights around it . it 's looking a bit like something out of star wars at the moment though , to be fair . marketing: project manager: user interface: but yeah . marketing: futuristic . industrial designer: user interface: that was that was a sorta simple idea i had project manager: uh-huh . user interface: and then you know you could about right , it would almost be like a ball . so that was just just an idea i had . i do n't know whether anybody else has other ideas ? industrial designer: right . one problem you 'd get with this design is um the ball is a nice idea because of it 's stability really , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but of course , since it 's a ball , it 'll roll , so we 'd have to have it flat on one side at least , down here somewhere , user interface: yeah . maybe f yeah . industrial designer: take away that part . that 's one of the big issues . also also you risk the hinges here . that 's that 's um a problem . user interface: yeah , that 's g that 's a good idea . yeah . the idea it did n't have to necessarily be f a hinge , industrial designer: that 's that 's interesting of course , user interface: that was just one idea though . industrial designer: but that 's of course a weak point , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: project manager: how would we go about um making you know getting rid of our weak points ? what i mean would we just have a flat spot on the bottom of the ball ? user interface: marketing: project manager: not to put you on the spot , industrial designer: e no no , project manager: but industrial designer: uh uh . project manager: what did you say your title was again ? industrial designer: n n marketing: project manager: you 're the the industrial designer . industrial designer: uh , i 'm your industrial designer , marketing: industrial designer: so i b well , project manager: industrial designer: the point is that well maybe i dunno . the shape is perhaps not the most ideal . project manager: okay . industrial designer: as as stable as it is , there must be a compromise between um stability and design here , so . user interface: well i i suppose that things become design . but i mean i marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i was trying to think of like the design of others . i ca n't think of anything other than a long rectangle for remote , project manager: yeah . user interface: maybe small , sort of fatter ones , but there 's nothing being done sort of out of left field , yeah . project manager: it 's not new , it 's not innovative , it 's you know , everybody does long remote because it 's easy , user interface: yeah . project manager: it 's it 's stable um . marketing: 'kay , i 'll draw something . project manager: so if marketing: what ? project manager: no , go ahead . marketing: my idea was just to have it be kind of like a keyboard type shape , you know , like video games user interface: yeah . marketing: l so . but maybe i mean that would be kinda big and bulky . we could also try to do the hinge thing , so it could like flip out that way . i do n't know . that 's my idea . user interface: i think definitely doing something different marketing: yeah . user interface: is a good idea . industrial designer: mm . user interface: i mean maybe design something , that 's sort of like suppose not everybody 's everybody 's hand 's the same , but something that would maybe fit in the hand easier . project manager: something with a grip . marketing: mm . yeah . user interface: yeah , with a grip . project manager: yeah . because even i suppose even with the ball user interface: it still might be hard to project manager: it 's user interface: it still not the ho easiest thing to hold , yeah . project manager: it might not be the easiest to hold onto um . industrial designer: mm . project manager: so perhaps the the joystick the the keyboard idea might work better . user interface: like yeah . project manager: but then again , people like to use one hand to flip and one hand to hold their soda , so maybe maybe we user interface: yeah . marketing: true . user interface: it 's d yeah . i think it 's definitely got to be a a one-handed a one-handed job . marketing: mm . project manager: i feel like i 'm just shooting everything down here . user interface: marketing: that 's fine . project manager: uh um marketing: you 're the boss , you 're allowed to . industrial designer: well with the one-handed design you also have the the problem of the size w 'cause you know from cell phones , they can be too small . so if the remote is too small it marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: if it 's small it probably looks better , but may not be th as functional . so for that there 's project manager: okay , so industrial designer: so project manager: unfortunately we 've got about five minutes here to come up with our um remote control idea and start rolling with it . um we 've talked about our experiences with remote control and um we 've got a couple ideas um . let 's see here . what if we had what if we had not only um say we went with the ball the ball function um , but maybe we give it sort of grips along the side s um to make it easier to hold on to . so you know um s so it 's easier to hold onto that way . user interface: yeah . project manager: course that 'll then remove some of our our ball . unless this unless this part were raised , so say the cover flips over and covers that part . so the grip is no , that would n't work either um . but if we 're gon na make it flat on the bottom , then that eliminates our ball anyways . so if it were flat on the bottom and then had the sorta grips on the side here i guess , um and then flat uh and then we have the problem with the hinge . so if we 're flat on the bottom , it 's not gon na roll away , it 'll stay where we want . industrial designer: the question is also , i dunno , d do you really always want to open that thing when you have to use it ? project manager: mm , that 's true . industrial designer: it 's probably going to lie around opened all the time anyway , so i do n't know if a lid is a good idea . from stabil stability point of view uh it certainly is , but also you have to face it and take into account the more of these things break by accident , uh the more we sell . so it 's do n't make it too stable uh . project manager: so we do n't have it flip open . we just have a ball user interface: but then maybe to go back to the to th s something along those things then . industrial designer: to the other design . project manager: okay , so then we forget the ball . industrial designer: it looks cool . marketing: looks cool though . project manager: it looks cool , but it 's really not it 's not functional um . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: uh functional . project manager: so we 've got our sort of keyboard kind . what if we flipped it around here , so that it were um sorry , that does n't look anything like what you had there . um so it 's up and down , you hold it this way . user interface: yeah . project manager: course then it 's it 's like the rectangular again , only with a couple of jutting out points . marketing: industrial designer: right . right . project manager: but it 's one-handed um . industrial designer: question is what makes those game pads functional ? w i think that 's pretty much the form for full hand . so it 's a round shape underneath that makes it comfy , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: right , marketing: mm . industrial designer: makes it nice , so that 's the essential part . except for that i think we 'll not probably not get a get away from some longer design . project manager: yeah . marketing: right . industrial designer: 'cause you also have to know which way around to point this thing . project manager: yeah , industrial designer: you know , all project manager: because it does n't have a cord , like joysticks do . industrial designer: that dif batteries right , and batteries go weak as well , so um after a while you have to point it towards the uh towards the equipment you wan na control with it , right ? so , have to m show which is the front , which is the back . project manager: is it possible to have it to where it would work with a like a sensor on either side ? so that either way you 're pointing it it would work . industrial designer: i suppose you could do that . o of course the more technology you stick in that , the more it 'll cost , so . project manager: more expensive and yeah . industrial designer: course you can do that . project manager: 'kay . um industrial designer: i mean of course it 'll be evident after a while or if you look at it , it 'll it 'll be evident which way around to point it , since you have the the numbers and the and the the buttons and stuff , project manager: true . industrial designer: but um it 's rather about an instinctual thing , user interface: put it industrial designer: like you just grab it , you do n't have to s look at it , you know , which way around to point it . otherwise the design of or the the point of putting two sensors on both sides um would probably work . user interface: even if you designed it in some in a way that you know , is n't a rectangle , but still pointed in a direction that had definite points . so if that 's your thing and you got something like that instead , marketing: yeah . user interface: and there 's your s you kn you know which way you 're gon na pointing it . project manager: 'kay . user interface: um marketing: sorry to interrupt , but we have a warning to finish . project manager: are we out of time ? industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , well , just to finish up , should we s go with this plan , start making some are good ideas , what are not . industrial designer: let 's . user interface: does it say what does it say for n industrial designer: obviously user interface: it says on there what we need to do for the next meeting , i think . project manager: uh . must finish now , so . user interface: t project manager: and then marketing will look and see what uh what people want . marketing: mm . industrial designer: alright . marketing: great . project manager: okay . and project manager will design a better meeting for next time around , be a little bit more prepared . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: and uh alright , good meeting . marketing: { vocalsound }

in the design of the sphere remote control , user interface used a hinge to connect the middle part , and a light sensor was used to avoid too many buttons . project manager proposed that the handle could make it more stable , but lost the features of the sphere ; in the design of the joystick keyboard , marketing also wanted to use hinges to make the keyboard remote control more portable . industrial designer proposed to add a round shape under the keyboard remote control to make the remote control more user-friendly . project designer proposed to add sensors on both sides for users to use more conveniently .

what did industrial designer think about the design of spherical remote control when discussing detailed designings of ideal remote control ? </s> project manager: okay . oh , that 's not gon na work . oh , alright . okay . okay . um alright . marketing: uh , uh , um . project manager: i 'll just put that there . uh as you all know we 're here to create a brand new fantastic remote . uh i 'm nick debusk , i 'm the project manager . uh we 'll just get started with everyone kind of letting each other know who they are and what you 're doing , what your what your role is um . go ahead . marketing: okay . i am corinne whiting and i will be the marketing expert and in each of the three phases i will have a different role . in the function design phase i will be talking about user requirement specification , and this means what needs and desires are to be fulfilled , and i 'll be doing research to figure this out . in the conceptual design phase i will be dealing with trend watching and i 'll be doing marketing research on the web . and then finally in the um detailed design phase i will be doing product evaluation and so i will be collecting the requirements and ranking all the requirements to see how we did . project manager: 'kay . user interface: hiya , i 'm ryan . um i 'm the user interface designer . um likewise i 've three different roles for each stage of design . um the functional design is looking at the tex technical functions of a remote control . um in the concept design , the user interface , how the user reacts with the the product . and the detailed design um sort of like the user interface design , what they might be looking for , uh things like fashions , what makes wha how we 're gon na make it special . that 's about it . industrial designer: right . i 'm manuel and i 'm the industrial designer in in this project um . in the functional design phase i 'm i 'll be dealing mostly with the requirements , um we 'll discuss what the prog what functions the the product has to fulfil and so and so on . um i suppose we 'll work pretty much together on that one . um um in the conceptual design um i 'll be pro mostly dealing with properties and materials um of our product . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and uh the detailed design in the detailed design i 'll be concerned with the look and feel of the product itself , um so we 're pretty much working together obviously on the design front here . okay . project manager: okay . um so we 've got our opening , our our agenda is the opening , uh acquaintance which we 've kinda done . uh tool training , project plan discussion and then closing . user interface: marketing: project manager: uh grand total of twenty five minutes we have here . um so we are putting together a new remote control . um we want it to be something original . um of course we 're a not only a electronics company but a fashion um conscious electronics company , so we want it to be trendy um and we want it to be easy to use . um we 've got the functional design , conceptual design and detailed design um which basically is is the three of you um . and w uh well um functional design um . um do we have um any ideas of of maybe d let 's just throw out some ideas of what kind of remote control we want to have , and then we can go into how we 're gon na design it and and how we 're gon na do the detailing on it . user interface: yeah . well uh s function of remote control is just just you know , change channels is its main function . project manager: so we want it to be um a tv remote or i i mean do we want it to to do other things besides just be a a television remote ? user interface: oh right . i suppose you c try make it a universal remote project manager: 'kay . user interface: for could work on all sort of electrical products in in one person 's house . but , you know , they all sorta have the same role changing channels , volumes and then programming . marketing: mm . industrial designer: project manager: mm-hmm . 'kay . industrial designer: mm . user interface: i think they all work on the same prin principle as well sorta like i do n't actually know . but is it just infra-red ? is that standard ? project manager: i i think yeah , yeah , r universal remote . user interface: ye yeah . project manager: um this is my first uh go-round with creating a remote control , marketing: huh . project manager: so marketing: ours too . user interface: project manager: i think we 're all in the same boat here . um user interface: um one thing i thought of with the remote control is you always lose 'em . project manager: okay . user interface: so if there 's a g a way of finding it quite easily , i thought that 'd be quite good quite a good feature . marketing: mm . ch project manager: so we should we should set our remote control up to where it has a uh marketing: like a tracking device ? project manager: like a tracking device or or like a a user interface: oh you can get those key well you could whistle or make a noise project manager: it makes a noise , user interface: and it 'd beep . project manager: there 's a button on the tv that you press industrial designer: mm , mm . project manager: and user interface: yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: right . project manager: 'kay . marketing: be good . industrial designer: so user interface: generally , all remotes are sort of quite similar in their appearance . project manager: yeah . do we want user interface: just long . project manager: so they 're kinda like long and rectangular . user interface: yeah . project manager: do we want something crazy ? user interface: black usually . project manager: you know , we want something new that 's gon na stand out . user interface: yeah . marketing: lot more modern . project manager: a m a modern so our remote should be user interface: i think so . maybe sorta spherical or something . a ball . industrial designer: marketing: maybe like user-friendly , like a little user interface: yeah . marketing: you know , where you can use both hands , like a little keyboard type thing . user interface: people industrial designer: mm . user interface: i thought maybe , because people always tend to throw a remote control about the place to one another if it was in a ball , project manager: 'kay . user interface: and maybe the actual controls are inside or something . marketing: mm . project manager: um . industrial designer: well there are of course certain restrictions , you ca n't have it be any form and fulfil all functions at the same time , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so there are always the some restrictions we have to apply here . um however um one question is how stable is that thing supposed to be , that refers to the material , pretty much um . what are we gon na build that thing out of ? marketing: mm . industrial designer: how sturdy is it gon na be ? do we want it to last longer or rather have people whatever , have to buy one every half a year ? project manager: okay so yeah , so we want it to be sturdy , user interface: yeah . project manager: we want it to to hold up to somebody 's child , you know , throwing it across the room or , as you said , people kinda throw it , so ball-shaped , uh you know , if it were ball-shaped maybe , user interface: yeah . project manager: then it user interface: it could be cased on the outside and t everything could be inside . project manager: 'kay . um so we want it to be modern , fun , sturdy , um so our form and our function . um we want it to be um easy to find . um what else it what else do we want it to to do ? so we want it to be universal . it 's something that we 're supposed to sell for about twenty five euros um and you know , goals for profits are i think somewhere around uh fifty million euros , what they wan na make on it , so . marketing: mm . also since we 're partners of the international remote control association , maybe we wan na make it something that would globally appeal . project manager: 'kay . marketing: that 's more on the research end , but the marketing . project manager: so marketing , you know , how maybe uh marketing , you could s find out what is the most universally um appealing remote control out there . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: and maybe as far as design goes , maybe we could have different ones for different target audiences , project manager: 'kay . marketing: 'cause maybe one wo n't apply to all of the countries we 're targeting . user interface: ye small . industrial designer: right . project manager: um do you guys have any ideas for what it should look like ? maybe we could draw it up on the on the board over there . some ideas ? we want it to be a b a ball , user interface: i 'd i could draw sorta the ball idea . project manager: you know , we 'll draw up we 'll draw up the ball and maybe th um where the buttons are located . user interface: my original idea was just simply sort of a sphere , where maybe you this is where it 's connected together , and then when you open it out , it could fol it could be maybe flip , like a flip phone , and then when you fold it out the middle maybe a hinge that 'll have to be the strongest part of it . if that if we did use a hinge , or if it was just two parts , industrial designer: user interface: and then you 'd have just sorta you you you know , your buttons . thing is inside i think , sometimes remotes have too many buttons , so maybe as simple as possible , um as few buttons inside as possible . um , i dunno , what 's the idea for . just something maybe if you ha if it had like if some kind of like light or something or lights around it . it 's looking a bit like something out of star wars at the moment though , to be fair . marketing: project manager: user interface: but yeah . marketing: futuristic . industrial designer: user interface: that was that was a sorta simple idea i had project manager: uh-huh . user interface: and then you know you could about right , it would almost be like a ball . so that was just just an idea i had . i do n't know whether anybody else has other ideas ? industrial designer: right . one problem you 'd get with this design is um the ball is a nice idea because of it 's stability really , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but of course , since it 's a ball , it 'll roll , so we 'd have to have it flat on one side at least , down here somewhere , user interface: yeah . maybe f yeah . industrial designer: take away that part . that 's one of the big issues . also also you risk the hinges here . that 's that 's um a problem . user interface: yeah , that 's g that 's a good idea . yeah . the idea it did n't have to necessarily be f a hinge , industrial designer: that 's that 's interesting of course , user interface: that was just one idea though . industrial designer: but that 's of course a weak point , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: project manager: how would we go about um making you know getting rid of our weak points ? what i mean would we just have a flat spot on the bottom of the ball ? user interface: marketing: project manager: not to put you on the spot , industrial designer: e no no , project manager: but industrial designer: uh uh . project manager: what did you say your title was again ? industrial designer: n n marketing: project manager: you 're the the industrial designer . industrial designer: uh , i 'm your industrial designer , marketing: industrial designer: so i b well , project manager: industrial designer: the point is that well maybe i dunno . the shape is perhaps not the most ideal . project manager: okay . industrial designer: as as stable as it is , there must be a compromise between um stability and design here , so . user interface: well i i suppose that things become design . but i mean i marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i was trying to think of like the design of others . i ca n't think of anything other than a long rectangle for remote , project manager: yeah . user interface: maybe small , sort of fatter ones , but there 's nothing being done sort of out of left field , yeah . project manager: it 's not new , it 's not innovative , it 's you know , everybody does long remote because it 's easy , user interface: yeah . project manager: it 's it 's stable um . marketing: 'kay , i 'll draw something . project manager: so if marketing: what ? project manager: no , go ahead . marketing: my idea was just to have it be kind of like a keyboard type shape , you know , like video games user interface: yeah . marketing: l so . but maybe i mean that would be kinda big and bulky . we could also try to do the hinge thing , so it could like flip out that way . i do n't know . that 's my idea . user interface: i think definitely doing something different marketing: yeah . user interface: is a good idea . industrial designer: mm . user interface: i mean maybe design something , that 's sort of like suppose not everybody 's everybody 's hand 's the same , but something that would maybe fit in the hand easier . project manager: something with a grip . marketing: mm . yeah . user interface: yeah , with a grip . project manager: yeah . because even i suppose even with the ball user interface: it still might be hard to project manager: it 's user interface: it still not the ho easiest thing to hold , yeah . project manager: it might not be the easiest to hold onto um . industrial designer: mm . project manager: so perhaps the the joystick the the keyboard idea might work better . user interface: like yeah . project manager: but then again , people like to use one hand to flip and one hand to hold their soda , so maybe maybe we user interface: yeah . marketing: true . user interface: it 's d yeah . i think it 's definitely got to be a a one-handed a one-handed job . marketing: mm . project manager: i feel like i 'm just shooting everything down here . user interface: marketing: that 's fine . project manager: uh um marketing: you 're the boss , you 're allowed to . industrial designer: well with the one-handed design you also have the the problem of the size w 'cause you know from cell phones , they can be too small . so if the remote is too small it marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: if it 's small it probably looks better , but may not be th as functional . so for that there 's project manager: okay , so industrial designer: so project manager: unfortunately we 've got about five minutes here to come up with our um remote control idea and start rolling with it . um we 've talked about our experiences with remote control and um we 've got a couple ideas um . let 's see here . what if we had what if we had not only um say we went with the ball the ball function um , but maybe we give it sort of grips along the side s um to make it easier to hold on to . so you know um s so it 's easier to hold onto that way . user interface: yeah . project manager: course that 'll then remove some of our our ball . unless this unless this part were raised , so say the cover flips over and covers that part . so the grip is no , that would n't work either um . but if we 're gon na make it flat on the bottom , then that eliminates our ball anyways . so if it were flat on the bottom and then had the sorta grips on the side here i guess , um and then flat uh and then we have the problem with the hinge . so if we 're flat on the bottom , it 's not gon na roll away , it 'll stay where we want . industrial designer: the question is also , i dunno , d do you really always want to open that thing when you have to use it ? project manager: mm , that 's true . industrial designer: it 's probably going to lie around opened all the time anyway , so i do n't know if a lid is a good idea . from stabil stability point of view uh it certainly is , but also you have to face it and take into account the more of these things break by accident , uh the more we sell . so it 's do n't make it too stable uh . project manager: so we do n't have it flip open . we just have a ball user interface: but then maybe to go back to the to th s something along those things then . industrial designer: to the other design . project manager: okay , so then we forget the ball . industrial designer: it looks cool . marketing: looks cool though . project manager: it looks cool , but it 's really not it 's not functional um . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: uh functional . project manager: so we 've got our sort of keyboard kind . what if we flipped it around here , so that it were um sorry , that does n't look anything like what you had there . um so it 's up and down , you hold it this way . user interface: yeah . project manager: course then it 's it 's like the rectangular again , only with a couple of jutting out points . marketing: industrial designer: right . right . project manager: but it 's one-handed um . industrial designer: question is what makes those game pads functional ? w i think that 's pretty much the form for full hand . so it 's a round shape underneath that makes it comfy , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: right , marketing: mm . industrial designer: makes it nice , so that 's the essential part . except for that i think we 'll not probably not get a get away from some longer design . project manager: yeah . marketing: right . industrial designer: 'cause you also have to know which way around to point this thing . project manager: yeah , industrial designer: you know , all project manager: because it does n't have a cord , like joysticks do . industrial designer: that dif batteries right , and batteries go weak as well , so um after a while you have to point it towards the uh towards the equipment you wan na control with it , right ? so , have to m show which is the front , which is the back . project manager: is it possible to have it to where it would work with a like a sensor on either side ? so that either way you 're pointing it it would work . industrial designer: i suppose you could do that . o of course the more technology you stick in that , the more it 'll cost , so . project manager: more expensive and yeah . industrial designer: course you can do that . project manager: 'kay . um industrial designer: i mean of course it 'll be evident after a while or if you look at it , it 'll it 'll be evident which way around to point it , since you have the the numbers and the and the the buttons and stuff , project manager: true . industrial designer: but um it 's rather about an instinctual thing , user interface: put it industrial designer: like you just grab it , you do n't have to s look at it , you know , which way around to point it . otherwise the design of or the the point of putting two sensors on both sides um would probably work . user interface: even if you designed it in some in a way that you know , is n't a rectangle , but still pointed in a direction that had definite points . so if that 's your thing and you got something like that instead , marketing: yeah . user interface: and there 's your s you kn you know which way you 're gon na pointing it . project manager: 'kay . user interface: um marketing: sorry to interrupt , but we have a warning to finish . project manager: are we out of time ? industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , well , just to finish up , should we s go with this plan , start making some are good ideas , what are not . industrial designer: let 's . user interface: does it say what does it say for n industrial designer: obviously user interface: it says on there what we need to do for the next meeting , i think . project manager: uh . must finish now , so . user interface: t project manager: and then marketing will look and see what uh what people want . marketing: mm . industrial designer: alright . marketing: great . project manager: okay . and project manager will design a better meeting for next time around , be a little bit more prepared . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: and uh alright , good meeting . marketing: { vocalsound }

industrial designer thought that the spherical remote control is easy to be thrown back and forth , which would reduce its service life and lack stability . there should be a compromise between the sense of design and stability .

how did the team reach an agreement to address potential problems with the joystick keyboard when discussing detailed designings of ideal remote control ? </s> project manager: okay . oh , that 's not gon na work . oh , alright . okay . okay . um alright . marketing: uh , uh , um . project manager: i 'll just put that there . uh as you all know we 're here to create a brand new fantastic remote . uh i 'm nick debusk , i 'm the project manager . uh we 'll just get started with everyone kind of letting each other know who they are and what you 're doing , what your what your role is um . go ahead . marketing: okay . i am corinne whiting and i will be the marketing expert and in each of the three phases i will have a different role . in the function design phase i will be talking about user requirement specification , and this means what needs and desires are to be fulfilled , and i 'll be doing research to figure this out . in the conceptual design phase i will be dealing with trend watching and i 'll be doing marketing research on the web . and then finally in the um detailed design phase i will be doing product evaluation and so i will be collecting the requirements and ranking all the requirements to see how we did . project manager: 'kay . user interface: hiya , i 'm ryan . um i 'm the user interface designer . um likewise i 've three different roles for each stage of design . um the functional design is looking at the tex technical functions of a remote control . um in the concept design , the user interface , how the user reacts with the the product . and the detailed design um sort of like the user interface design , what they might be looking for , uh things like fashions , what makes wha how we 're gon na make it special . that 's about it . industrial designer: right . i 'm manuel and i 'm the industrial designer in in this project um . in the functional design phase i 'm i 'll be dealing mostly with the requirements , um we 'll discuss what the prog what functions the the product has to fulfil and so and so on . um i suppose we 'll work pretty much together on that one . um um in the conceptual design um i 'll be pro mostly dealing with properties and materials um of our product . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and uh the detailed design in the detailed design i 'll be concerned with the look and feel of the product itself , um so we 're pretty much working together obviously on the design front here . okay . project manager: okay . um so we 've got our opening , our our agenda is the opening , uh acquaintance which we 've kinda done . uh tool training , project plan discussion and then closing . user interface: marketing: project manager: uh grand total of twenty five minutes we have here . um so we are putting together a new remote control . um we want it to be something original . um of course we 're a not only a electronics company but a fashion um conscious electronics company , so we want it to be trendy um and we want it to be easy to use . um we 've got the functional design , conceptual design and detailed design um which basically is is the three of you um . and w uh well um functional design um . um do we have um any ideas of of maybe d let 's just throw out some ideas of what kind of remote control we want to have , and then we can go into how we 're gon na design it and and how we 're gon na do the detailing on it . user interface: yeah . well uh s function of remote control is just just you know , change channels is its main function . project manager: so we want it to be um a tv remote or i i mean do we want it to to do other things besides just be a a television remote ? user interface: oh right . i suppose you c try make it a universal remote project manager: 'kay . user interface: for could work on all sort of electrical products in in one person 's house . but , you know , they all sorta have the same role changing channels , volumes and then programming . marketing: mm . industrial designer: project manager: mm-hmm . 'kay . industrial designer: mm . user interface: i think they all work on the same prin principle as well sorta like i do n't actually know . but is it just infra-red ? is that standard ? project manager: i i think yeah , yeah , r universal remote . user interface: ye yeah . project manager: um this is my first uh go-round with creating a remote control , marketing: huh . project manager: so marketing: ours too . user interface: project manager: i think we 're all in the same boat here . um user interface: um one thing i thought of with the remote control is you always lose 'em . project manager: okay . user interface: so if there 's a g a way of finding it quite easily , i thought that 'd be quite good quite a good feature . marketing: mm . ch project manager: so we should we should set our remote control up to where it has a uh marketing: like a tracking device ? project manager: like a tracking device or or like a a user interface: oh you can get those key well you could whistle or make a noise project manager: it makes a noise , user interface: and it 'd beep . project manager: there 's a button on the tv that you press industrial designer: mm , mm . project manager: and user interface: yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: right . project manager: 'kay . marketing: be good . industrial designer: so user interface: generally , all remotes are sort of quite similar in their appearance . project manager: yeah . do we want user interface: just long . project manager: so they 're kinda like long and rectangular . user interface: yeah . project manager: do we want something crazy ? user interface: black usually . project manager: you know , we want something new that 's gon na stand out . user interface: yeah . marketing: lot more modern . project manager: a m a modern so our remote should be user interface: i think so . maybe sorta spherical or something . a ball . industrial designer: marketing: maybe like user-friendly , like a little user interface: yeah . marketing: you know , where you can use both hands , like a little keyboard type thing . user interface: people industrial designer: mm . user interface: i thought maybe , because people always tend to throw a remote control about the place to one another if it was in a ball , project manager: 'kay . user interface: and maybe the actual controls are inside or something . marketing: mm . project manager: um . industrial designer: well there are of course certain restrictions , you ca n't have it be any form and fulfil all functions at the same time , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so there are always the some restrictions we have to apply here . um however um one question is how stable is that thing supposed to be , that refers to the material , pretty much um . what are we gon na build that thing out of ? marketing: mm . industrial designer: how sturdy is it gon na be ? do we want it to last longer or rather have people whatever , have to buy one every half a year ? project manager: okay so yeah , so we want it to be sturdy , user interface: yeah . project manager: we want it to to hold up to somebody 's child , you know , throwing it across the room or , as you said , people kinda throw it , so ball-shaped , uh you know , if it were ball-shaped maybe , user interface: yeah . project manager: then it user interface: it could be cased on the outside and t everything could be inside . project manager: 'kay . um so we want it to be modern , fun , sturdy , um so our form and our function . um we want it to be um easy to find . um what else it what else do we want it to to do ? so we want it to be universal . it 's something that we 're supposed to sell for about twenty five euros um and you know , goals for profits are i think somewhere around uh fifty million euros , what they wan na make on it , so . marketing: mm . also since we 're partners of the international remote control association , maybe we wan na make it something that would globally appeal . project manager: 'kay . marketing: that 's more on the research end , but the marketing . project manager: so marketing , you know , how maybe uh marketing , you could s find out what is the most universally um appealing remote control out there . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: and maybe as far as design goes , maybe we could have different ones for different target audiences , project manager: 'kay . marketing: 'cause maybe one wo n't apply to all of the countries we 're targeting . user interface: ye small . industrial designer: right . project manager: um do you guys have any ideas for what it should look like ? maybe we could draw it up on the on the board over there . some ideas ? we want it to be a b a ball , user interface: i 'd i could draw sorta the ball idea . project manager: you know , we 'll draw up we 'll draw up the ball and maybe th um where the buttons are located . user interface: my original idea was just simply sort of a sphere , where maybe you this is where it 's connected together , and then when you open it out , it could fol it could be maybe flip , like a flip phone , and then when you fold it out the middle maybe a hinge that 'll have to be the strongest part of it . if that if we did use a hinge , or if it was just two parts , industrial designer: user interface: and then you 'd have just sorta you you you know , your buttons . thing is inside i think , sometimes remotes have too many buttons , so maybe as simple as possible , um as few buttons inside as possible . um , i dunno , what 's the idea for . just something maybe if you ha if it had like if some kind of like light or something or lights around it . it 's looking a bit like something out of star wars at the moment though , to be fair . marketing: project manager: user interface: but yeah . marketing: futuristic . industrial designer: user interface: that was that was a sorta simple idea i had project manager: uh-huh . user interface: and then you know you could about right , it would almost be like a ball . so that was just just an idea i had . i do n't know whether anybody else has other ideas ? industrial designer: right . one problem you 'd get with this design is um the ball is a nice idea because of it 's stability really , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but of course , since it 's a ball , it 'll roll , so we 'd have to have it flat on one side at least , down here somewhere , user interface: yeah . maybe f yeah . industrial designer: take away that part . that 's one of the big issues . also also you risk the hinges here . that 's that 's um a problem . user interface: yeah , that 's g that 's a good idea . yeah . the idea it did n't have to necessarily be f a hinge , industrial designer: that 's that 's interesting of course , user interface: that was just one idea though . industrial designer: but that 's of course a weak point , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: project manager: how would we go about um making you know getting rid of our weak points ? what i mean would we just have a flat spot on the bottom of the ball ? user interface: marketing: project manager: not to put you on the spot , industrial designer: e no no , project manager: but industrial designer: uh uh . project manager: what did you say your title was again ? industrial designer: n n marketing: project manager: you 're the the industrial designer . industrial designer: uh , i 'm your industrial designer , marketing: industrial designer: so i b well , project manager: industrial designer: the point is that well maybe i dunno . the shape is perhaps not the most ideal . project manager: okay . industrial designer: as as stable as it is , there must be a compromise between um stability and design here , so . user interface: well i i suppose that things become design . but i mean i marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i was trying to think of like the design of others . i ca n't think of anything other than a long rectangle for remote , project manager: yeah . user interface: maybe small , sort of fatter ones , but there 's nothing being done sort of out of left field , yeah . project manager: it 's not new , it 's not innovative , it 's you know , everybody does long remote because it 's easy , user interface: yeah . project manager: it 's it 's stable um . marketing: 'kay , i 'll draw something . project manager: so if marketing: what ? project manager: no , go ahead . marketing: my idea was just to have it be kind of like a keyboard type shape , you know , like video games user interface: yeah . marketing: l so . but maybe i mean that would be kinda big and bulky . we could also try to do the hinge thing , so it could like flip out that way . i do n't know . that 's my idea . user interface: i think definitely doing something different marketing: yeah . user interface: is a good idea . industrial designer: mm . user interface: i mean maybe design something , that 's sort of like suppose not everybody 's everybody 's hand 's the same , but something that would maybe fit in the hand easier . project manager: something with a grip . marketing: mm . yeah . user interface: yeah , with a grip . project manager: yeah . because even i suppose even with the ball user interface: it still might be hard to project manager: it 's user interface: it still not the ho easiest thing to hold , yeah . project manager: it might not be the easiest to hold onto um . industrial designer: mm . project manager: so perhaps the the joystick the the keyboard idea might work better . user interface: like yeah . project manager: but then again , people like to use one hand to flip and one hand to hold their soda , so maybe maybe we user interface: yeah . marketing: true . user interface: it 's d yeah . i think it 's definitely got to be a a one-handed a one-handed job . marketing: mm . project manager: i feel like i 'm just shooting everything down here . user interface: marketing: that 's fine . project manager: uh um marketing: you 're the boss , you 're allowed to . industrial designer: well with the one-handed design you also have the the problem of the size w 'cause you know from cell phones , they can be too small . so if the remote is too small it marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: if it 's small it probably looks better , but may not be th as functional . so for that there 's project manager: okay , so industrial designer: so project manager: unfortunately we 've got about five minutes here to come up with our um remote control idea and start rolling with it . um we 've talked about our experiences with remote control and um we 've got a couple ideas um . let 's see here . what if we had what if we had not only um say we went with the ball the ball function um , but maybe we give it sort of grips along the side s um to make it easier to hold on to . so you know um s so it 's easier to hold onto that way . user interface: yeah . project manager: course that 'll then remove some of our our ball . unless this unless this part were raised , so say the cover flips over and covers that part . so the grip is no , that would n't work either um . but if we 're gon na make it flat on the bottom , then that eliminates our ball anyways . so if it were flat on the bottom and then had the sorta grips on the side here i guess , um and then flat uh and then we have the problem with the hinge . so if we 're flat on the bottom , it 's not gon na roll away , it 'll stay where we want . industrial designer: the question is also , i dunno , d do you really always want to open that thing when you have to use it ? project manager: mm , that 's true . industrial designer: it 's probably going to lie around opened all the time anyway , so i do n't know if a lid is a good idea . from stabil stability point of view uh it certainly is , but also you have to face it and take into account the more of these things break by accident , uh the more we sell . so it 's do n't make it too stable uh . project manager: so we do n't have it flip open . we just have a ball user interface: but then maybe to go back to the to th s something along those things then . industrial designer: to the other design . project manager: okay , so then we forget the ball . industrial designer: it looks cool . marketing: looks cool though . project manager: it looks cool , but it 's really not it 's not functional um . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: uh functional . project manager: so we 've got our sort of keyboard kind . what if we flipped it around here , so that it were um sorry , that does n't look anything like what you had there . um so it 's up and down , you hold it this way . user interface: yeah . project manager: course then it 's it 's like the rectangular again , only with a couple of jutting out points . marketing: industrial designer: right . right . project manager: but it 's one-handed um . industrial designer: question is what makes those game pads functional ? w i think that 's pretty much the form for full hand . so it 's a round shape underneath that makes it comfy , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: right , marketing: mm . industrial designer: makes it nice , so that 's the essential part . except for that i think we 'll not probably not get a get away from some longer design . project manager: yeah . marketing: right . industrial designer: 'cause you also have to know which way around to point this thing . project manager: yeah , industrial designer: you know , all project manager: because it does n't have a cord , like joysticks do . industrial designer: that dif batteries right , and batteries go weak as well , so um after a while you have to point it towards the uh towards the equipment you wan na control with it , right ? so , have to m show which is the front , which is the back . project manager: is it possible to have it to where it would work with a like a sensor on either side ? so that either way you 're pointing it it would work . industrial designer: i suppose you could do that . o of course the more technology you stick in that , the more it 'll cost , so . project manager: more expensive and yeah . industrial designer: course you can do that . project manager: 'kay . um industrial designer: i mean of course it 'll be evident after a while or if you look at it , it 'll it 'll be evident which way around to point it , since you have the the numbers and the and the the buttons and stuff , project manager: true . industrial designer: but um it 's rather about an instinctual thing , user interface: put it industrial designer: like you just grab it , you do n't have to s look at it , you know , which way around to point it . otherwise the design of or the the point of putting two sensors on both sides um would probably work . user interface: even if you designed it in some in a way that you know , is n't a rectangle , but still pointed in a direction that had definite points . so if that 's your thing and you got something like that instead , marketing: yeah . user interface: and there 's your s you kn you know which way you 're gon na pointing it . project manager: 'kay . user interface: um marketing: sorry to interrupt , but we have a warning to finish . project manager: are we out of time ? industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , well , just to finish up , should we s go with this plan , start making some are good ideas , what are not . industrial designer: let 's . user interface: does it say what does it say for n industrial designer: obviously user interface: it says on there what we need to do for the next meeting , i think . project manager: uh . must finish now , so . user interface: t project manager: and then marketing will look and see what uh what people want . marketing: mm . industrial designer: alright . marketing: great . project manager: okay . and project manager will design a better meeting for next time around , be a little bit more prepared . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: and uh alright , good meeting . marketing: { vocalsound }

the team agreed that the joystick handle must be easy to operate by one hand , with some ups and downs behind it , so as to be more user-friendly . the remote control needs to be longer to indicate the direction of the remote control . for convenience , the project manager proposed to install sensors at both ends , but the industrial designer thought that the more technology investment , the higher the cost . the numbers and buttons on the remote control can clearly indicate its direction . in addition , he proposed that it should not be too small , or it might be hard to design functions .

summarize the discussion about price issues and target groups of remote control when discussing functional and conceptual design of ideal remote control . </s> project manager: okay . oh , that 's not gon na work . oh , alright . okay . okay . um alright . marketing: uh , uh , um . project manager: i 'll just put that there . uh as you all know we 're here to create a brand new fantastic remote . uh i 'm nick debusk , i 'm the project manager . uh we 'll just get started with everyone kind of letting each other know who they are and what you 're doing , what your what your role is um . go ahead . marketing: okay . i am corinne whiting and i will be the marketing expert and in each of the three phases i will have a different role . in the function design phase i will be talking about user requirement specification , and this means what needs and desires are to be fulfilled , and i 'll be doing research to figure this out . in the conceptual design phase i will be dealing with trend watching and i 'll be doing marketing research on the web . and then finally in the um detailed design phase i will be doing product evaluation and so i will be collecting the requirements and ranking all the requirements to see how we did . project manager: 'kay . user interface: hiya , i 'm ryan . um i 'm the user interface designer . um likewise i 've three different roles for each stage of design . um the functional design is looking at the tex technical functions of a remote control . um in the concept design , the user interface , how the user reacts with the the product . and the detailed design um sort of like the user interface design , what they might be looking for , uh things like fashions , what makes wha how we 're gon na make it special . that 's about it . industrial designer: right . i 'm manuel and i 'm the industrial designer in in this project um . in the functional design phase i 'm i 'll be dealing mostly with the requirements , um we 'll discuss what the prog what functions the the product has to fulfil and so and so on . um i suppose we 'll work pretty much together on that one . um um in the conceptual design um i 'll be pro mostly dealing with properties and materials um of our product . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and uh the detailed design in the detailed design i 'll be concerned with the look and feel of the product itself , um so we 're pretty much working together obviously on the design front here . okay . project manager: okay . um so we 've got our opening , our our agenda is the opening , uh acquaintance which we 've kinda done . uh tool training , project plan discussion and then closing . user interface: marketing: project manager: uh grand total of twenty five minutes we have here . um so we are putting together a new remote control . um we want it to be something original . um of course we 're a not only a electronics company but a fashion um conscious electronics company , so we want it to be trendy um and we want it to be easy to use . um we 've got the functional design , conceptual design and detailed design um which basically is is the three of you um . and w uh well um functional design um . um do we have um any ideas of of maybe d let 's just throw out some ideas of what kind of remote control we want to have , and then we can go into how we 're gon na design it and and how we 're gon na do the detailing on it . user interface: yeah . well uh s function of remote control is just just you know , change channels is its main function . project manager: so we want it to be um a tv remote or i i mean do we want it to to do other things besides just be a a television remote ? user interface: oh right . i suppose you c try make it a universal remote project manager: 'kay . user interface: for could work on all sort of electrical products in in one person 's house . but , you know , they all sorta have the same role changing channels , volumes and then programming . marketing: mm . industrial designer: project manager: mm-hmm . 'kay . industrial designer: mm . user interface: i think they all work on the same prin principle as well sorta like i do n't actually know . but is it just infra-red ? is that standard ? project manager: i i think yeah , yeah , r universal remote . user interface: ye yeah . project manager: um this is my first uh go-round with creating a remote control , marketing: huh . project manager: so marketing: ours too . user interface: project manager: i think we 're all in the same boat here . um user interface: um one thing i thought of with the remote control is you always lose 'em . project manager: okay . user interface: so if there 's a g a way of finding it quite easily , i thought that 'd be quite good quite a good feature . marketing: mm . ch project manager: so we should we should set our remote control up to where it has a uh marketing: like a tracking device ? project manager: like a tracking device or or like a a user interface: oh you can get those key well you could whistle or make a noise project manager: it makes a noise , user interface: and it 'd beep . project manager: there 's a button on the tv that you press industrial designer: mm , mm . project manager: and user interface: yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: right . project manager: 'kay . marketing: be good . industrial designer: so user interface: generally , all remotes are sort of quite similar in their appearance . project manager: yeah . do we want user interface: just long . project manager: so they 're kinda like long and rectangular . user interface: yeah . project manager: do we want something crazy ? user interface: black usually . project manager: you know , we want something new that 's gon na stand out . user interface: yeah . marketing: lot more modern . project manager: a m a modern so our remote should be user interface: i think so . maybe sorta spherical or something . a ball . industrial designer: marketing: maybe like user-friendly , like a little user interface: yeah . marketing: you know , where you can use both hands , like a little keyboard type thing . user interface: people industrial designer: mm . user interface: i thought maybe , because people always tend to throw a remote control about the place to one another if it was in a ball , project manager: 'kay . user interface: and maybe the actual controls are inside or something . marketing: mm . project manager: um . industrial designer: well there are of course certain restrictions , you ca n't have it be any form and fulfil all functions at the same time , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so there are always the some restrictions we have to apply here . um however um one question is how stable is that thing supposed to be , that refers to the material , pretty much um . what are we gon na build that thing out of ? marketing: mm . industrial designer: how sturdy is it gon na be ? do we want it to last longer or rather have people whatever , have to buy one every half a year ? project manager: okay so yeah , so we want it to be sturdy , user interface: yeah . project manager: we want it to to hold up to somebody 's child , you know , throwing it across the room or , as you said , people kinda throw it , so ball-shaped , uh you know , if it were ball-shaped maybe , user interface: yeah . project manager: then it user interface: it could be cased on the outside and t everything could be inside . project manager: 'kay . um so we want it to be modern , fun , sturdy , um so our form and our function . um we want it to be um easy to find . um what else it what else do we want it to to do ? so we want it to be universal . it 's something that we 're supposed to sell for about twenty five euros um and you know , goals for profits are i think somewhere around uh fifty million euros , what they wan na make on it , so . marketing: mm . also since we 're partners of the international remote control association , maybe we wan na make it something that would globally appeal . project manager: 'kay . marketing: that 's more on the research end , but the marketing . project manager: so marketing , you know , how maybe uh marketing , you could s find out what is the most universally um appealing remote control out there . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: and maybe as far as design goes , maybe we could have different ones for different target audiences , project manager: 'kay . marketing: 'cause maybe one wo n't apply to all of the countries we 're targeting . user interface: ye small . industrial designer: right . project manager: um do you guys have any ideas for what it should look like ? maybe we could draw it up on the on the board over there . some ideas ? we want it to be a b a ball , user interface: i 'd i could draw sorta the ball idea . project manager: you know , we 'll draw up we 'll draw up the ball and maybe th um where the buttons are located . user interface: my original idea was just simply sort of a sphere , where maybe you this is where it 's connected together , and then when you open it out , it could fol it could be maybe flip , like a flip phone , and then when you fold it out the middle maybe a hinge that 'll have to be the strongest part of it . if that if we did use a hinge , or if it was just two parts , industrial designer: user interface: and then you 'd have just sorta you you you know , your buttons . thing is inside i think , sometimes remotes have too many buttons , so maybe as simple as possible , um as few buttons inside as possible . um , i dunno , what 's the idea for . just something maybe if you ha if it had like if some kind of like light or something or lights around it . it 's looking a bit like something out of star wars at the moment though , to be fair . marketing: project manager: user interface: but yeah . marketing: futuristic . industrial designer: user interface: that was that was a sorta simple idea i had project manager: uh-huh . user interface: and then you know you could about right , it would almost be like a ball . so that was just just an idea i had . i do n't know whether anybody else has other ideas ? industrial designer: right . one problem you 'd get with this design is um the ball is a nice idea because of it 's stability really , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but of course , since it 's a ball , it 'll roll , so we 'd have to have it flat on one side at least , down here somewhere , user interface: yeah . maybe f yeah . industrial designer: take away that part . that 's one of the big issues . also also you risk the hinges here . that 's that 's um a problem . user interface: yeah , that 's g that 's a good idea . yeah . the idea it did n't have to necessarily be f a hinge , industrial designer: that 's that 's interesting of course , user interface: that was just one idea though . industrial designer: but that 's of course a weak point , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: project manager: how would we go about um making you know getting rid of our weak points ? what i mean would we just have a flat spot on the bottom of the ball ? user interface: marketing: project manager: not to put you on the spot , industrial designer: e no no , project manager: but industrial designer: uh uh . project manager: what did you say your title was again ? industrial designer: n n marketing: project manager: you 're the the industrial designer . industrial designer: uh , i 'm your industrial designer , marketing: industrial designer: so i b well , project manager: industrial designer: the point is that well maybe i dunno . the shape is perhaps not the most ideal . project manager: okay . industrial designer: as as stable as it is , there must be a compromise between um stability and design here , so . user interface: well i i suppose that things become design . but i mean i marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i was trying to think of like the design of others . i ca n't think of anything other than a long rectangle for remote , project manager: yeah . user interface: maybe small , sort of fatter ones , but there 's nothing being done sort of out of left field , yeah . project manager: it 's not new , it 's not innovative , it 's you know , everybody does long remote because it 's easy , user interface: yeah . project manager: it 's it 's stable um . marketing: 'kay , i 'll draw something . project manager: so if marketing: what ? project manager: no , go ahead . marketing: my idea was just to have it be kind of like a keyboard type shape , you know , like video games user interface: yeah . marketing: l so . but maybe i mean that would be kinda big and bulky . we could also try to do the hinge thing , so it could like flip out that way . i do n't know . that 's my idea . user interface: i think definitely doing something different marketing: yeah . user interface: is a good idea . industrial designer: mm . user interface: i mean maybe design something , that 's sort of like suppose not everybody 's everybody 's hand 's the same , but something that would maybe fit in the hand easier . project manager: something with a grip . marketing: mm . yeah . user interface: yeah , with a grip . project manager: yeah . because even i suppose even with the ball user interface: it still might be hard to project manager: it 's user interface: it still not the ho easiest thing to hold , yeah . project manager: it might not be the easiest to hold onto um . industrial designer: mm . project manager: so perhaps the the joystick the the keyboard idea might work better . user interface: like yeah . project manager: but then again , people like to use one hand to flip and one hand to hold their soda , so maybe maybe we user interface: yeah . marketing: true . user interface: it 's d yeah . i think it 's definitely got to be a a one-handed a one-handed job . marketing: mm . project manager: i feel like i 'm just shooting everything down here . user interface: marketing: that 's fine . project manager: uh um marketing: you 're the boss , you 're allowed to . industrial designer: well with the one-handed design you also have the the problem of the size w 'cause you know from cell phones , they can be too small . so if the remote is too small it marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: if it 's small it probably looks better , but may not be th as functional . so for that there 's project manager: okay , so industrial designer: so project manager: unfortunately we 've got about five minutes here to come up with our um remote control idea and start rolling with it . um we 've talked about our experiences with remote control and um we 've got a couple ideas um . let 's see here . what if we had what if we had not only um say we went with the ball the ball function um , but maybe we give it sort of grips along the side s um to make it easier to hold on to . so you know um s so it 's easier to hold onto that way . user interface: yeah . project manager: course that 'll then remove some of our our ball . unless this unless this part were raised , so say the cover flips over and covers that part . so the grip is no , that would n't work either um . but if we 're gon na make it flat on the bottom , then that eliminates our ball anyways . so if it were flat on the bottom and then had the sorta grips on the side here i guess , um and then flat uh and then we have the problem with the hinge . so if we 're flat on the bottom , it 's not gon na roll away , it 'll stay where we want . industrial designer: the question is also , i dunno , d do you really always want to open that thing when you have to use it ? project manager: mm , that 's true . industrial designer: it 's probably going to lie around opened all the time anyway , so i do n't know if a lid is a good idea . from stabil stability point of view uh it certainly is , but also you have to face it and take into account the more of these things break by accident , uh the more we sell . so it 's do n't make it too stable uh . project manager: so we do n't have it flip open . we just have a ball user interface: but then maybe to go back to the to th s something along those things then . industrial designer: to the other design . project manager: okay , so then we forget the ball . industrial designer: it looks cool . marketing: looks cool though . project manager: it looks cool , but it 's really not it 's not functional um . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: uh functional . project manager: so we 've got our sort of keyboard kind . what if we flipped it around here , so that it were um sorry , that does n't look anything like what you had there . um so it 's up and down , you hold it this way . user interface: yeah . project manager: course then it 's it 's like the rectangular again , only with a couple of jutting out points . marketing: industrial designer: right . right . project manager: but it 's one-handed um . industrial designer: question is what makes those game pads functional ? w i think that 's pretty much the form for full hand . so it 's a round shape underneath that makes it comfy , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: right , marketing: mm . industrial designer: makes it nice , so that 's the essential part . except for that i think we 'll not probably not get a get away from some longer design . project manager: yeah . marketing: right . industrial designer: 'cause you also have to know which way around to point this thing . project manager: yeah , industrial designer: you know , all project manager: because it does n't have a cord , like joysticks do . industrial designer: that dif batteries right , and batteries go weak as well , so um after a while you have to point it towards the uh towards the equipment you wan na control with it , right ? so , have to m show which is the front , which is the back . project manager: is it possible to have it to where it would work with a like a sensor on either side ? so that either way you 're pointing it it would work . industrial designer: i suppose you could do that . o of course the more technology you stick in that , the more it 'll cost , so . project manager: more expensive and yeah . industrial designer: course you can do that . project manager: 'kay . um industrial designer: i mean of course it 'll be evident after a while or if you look at it , it 'll it 'll be evident which way around to point it , since you have the the numbers and the and the the buttons and stuff , project manager: true . industrial designer: but um it 's rather about an instinctual thing , user interface: put it industrial designer: like you just grab it , you do n't have to s look at it , you know , which way around to point it . otherwise the design of or the the point of putting two sensors on both sides um would probably work . user interface: even if you designed it in some in a way that you know , is n't a rectangle , but still pointed in a direction that had definite points . so if that 's your thing and you got something like that instead , marketing: yeah . user interface: and there 's your s you kn you know which way you 're gon na pointing it . project manager: 'kay . user interface: um marketing: sorry to interrupt , but we have a warning to finish . project manager: are we out of time ? industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , well , just to finish up , should we s go with this plan , start making some are good ideas , what are not . industrial designer: let 's . user interface: does it say what does it say for n industrial designer: obviously user interface: it says on there what we need to do for the next meeting , i think . project manager: uh . must finish now , so . user interface: t project manager: and then marketing will look and see what uh what people want . marketing: mm . industrial designer: alright . marketing: great . project manager: okay . and project manager will design a better meeting for next time around , be a little bit more prepared . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: and uh alright , good meeting . marketing: { vocalsound }

project manager proposed to price each remote control at 25 euros . the profit aim for the team would be 50 million euros in the first year . the market range would be international and over all age groups . the most popular and attractive remote control can be found by marketing . or , in terms of design , provide different designs for different target audiences in different countries .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: okay ? good afternoon . hope you have good lunch . user interface: hi . industrial designer: afternoon . yeah , we had falafel . project manager: oh . nice . and you ? user interface: uh , yes , i had something similar but non-vegetarian . project manager: okay . so today is um our third meeting . it will be about the conceptual design uh . if i come back to uh the minutes of the last meetings um . we decided not to go for speech recognition technologies because of some reasons and we are not decided about u the use of lcd screen on on the remote control because of costs . so maybe we cou wi will be able to clarify this this question to today . uh at the end of the meeting we should take decision on that point . so i hope uh that your respective pr presentations uh will help us . so each of you have some presentatio presentation to perform um who starts ? marketing: okay , . project manager: so marketing . marketing: industrial designer: project manager: so you are you saved your y your presentation somewhere ? marketing: yep . project manager: so you 're four ? marketing: four , yeah . project manager: which is trend watch . okay . mr marketing experts . marketing: yeah that 's me . project manager: so marketing: uh . well i investigate the preference more d i investigate deeper the preference of the users . uh so the the current investigation th uh th uh sorry the current the n current trends ? user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah ? okay . okay . well wha what i found um can you project manager: next slide ? yeah . marketing: yeah . thank you . what i found in order of importance from less to more important is that people want an easy to use device . after they they want something new technologic technologically speaking , but the most what they what they find more more interesting , more or more important it 's uh a fancy look and feel instead of uh instead of the current the current trend which was f the functional look and feel . industrial designer: marketing: so now more more cool aspect , ma more a cooler aspect uh rather than a device with many functions and many buttons with instead of i instead of ha of a device which can do many things , a device which is pleasant to to watch , to see . project manager: okay . marketing: uh also well in in euro in in paris and and milan the user interface: industrial designer: marketing: in paris and in paris and milan the the current trend of uh of clothes , furniture and all this all this fashion it 's it 's fruit and the the the theme is fruit and vegetables . user interface: project manager: mm . marketing: and also in the in the u_s_a_ the the current the mor the most popular feeling it 's it 's a spongy . spongy means eponge ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so maybe we should we should think in in this direction , so user interface: what what do you mean by fruit and vegetables and spongy ? marketing: user interface: what you mean clothe industrial designer: spongy means it it 's like sp marketing: fruit vegetables is the the new have you seen the last exposition of clothes in milan ? user interface: no , i missed that one . marketing: yeah , i i did n't miss an project manager: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: i did n't miss and i saw that the fruit , there are many fr pictures of fruits and vegetables in the clothes . user interface: oh , they 're okay so they 're not like dressed as a carrot they just have like pictures of fruit on , okay . marketing: no no , not not yet , not yet . project manager: marketing: yeah , yeah . user interface: so we 're not gon na have a remote control in the shape of of a banana , marketing: so te textu textures , yeah . user interface: just maybe marketing: yeah . user interface: marketing: vegetable textures and all this kind . project manager: drawings of bananas . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: uh user interface: okay and project manager: uh-huh . marketing: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: but what 's your suggestion how we can have some shape like that on the remote ? project manager: well so this is in the next slide certainly . marketing: uh no no , it 's not . project manager: it 's not ? user interface: marketing: it 's user interface: so which fruit are you thinking of ? marketing: and um . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: i ha i have n't thought of any particular fruit , but the general aspect of the of the remote control may may could remind some kind of vegetable , some kind of instead of vegetable , some natur mm uh natural object or something . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: but yeah it it depends on the project manager: so maybe you maybe you can display a banana on the lcd . user interface: oh , so you want the remote control to be the shape of a fruit , project manager: user interface: or you want just some kind of like fruit logo on the industrial designer: means buttons are in the shape of fruits , marketing: yeah maybe the shape the shape industrial designer: buttons are in the frape shape of fruits or something , apple , banana , something like that . marketing: no , not n not not too much focus , not too much focu not n not too s not too similar to a fruit because next year the ten the trend the trend will be different . project manager: apple for channel one . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: so we should n't be at re really attached to to the trend user interface: so something that looks half like a fruit and half like an elephant . marketing: but for instance , yeah . african or as an elephant ? industrial designer: that we can discuss afterwards . project manager: okay . user interface: but okay , marketing: user interface: i 'm not , i 'm not really sure if uh that would really appeal to everyone though , maybe just to fashion gurus , like maybe just like a little bit n a little fruit picture somewhere in the corner , but i do n't know about uh i dunno how ergonomic a , an orange is . marketing: well ma maybe we we should further specify what target are we focusing . i think in my opinion we should focus on on young people because they are more open to new devi new devices user interface: to fruit ? marketing: and also yeah according to the marketing report ninety p ninety five percent of young people was was was able to to buy a a n a cooler remote control . user interface: but is it uh is fruit cool ? marketing: what ? project manager: that 's a question . marketing: what ? user interface: is fruit cool ? marketing: yeah ? uh is the new trend of the user interface: well i guess , you know , apple has the ipod so , imagi marketing: user interface: just 'cause they have an apple on their on their product , does n't mean fruit is cool . marketing: no i think we we should think about a a shape with it a device with a shape of some user interface: okay , but it has to be easy to uh to use though and to hold you know , you do n't wan na pear or a watermelon . marketing: yeah . don do n't you think we can find uh the shape of a fruit which is handy to use ? user interface: well , probably the only thing is a banana that i can think of , industrial designer: banana . user interface: a cucumber . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: maybe too long . user interface: i dunno . marketing: or m user interface: maybe . too green . marketing: maybe . project manager: user interface: so , but i mean you also have to you have to also have , fit r all the buttons and you know . project manager: a banana . marketing: um user interface: it 's , it marketing: yeah . user interface: the thing is you have t normally with um with buttons , they have to be at some point attached to a circuit board so if you 're gon na have things like on a cylindrical kind of device it may be difficult to kind of to build . project manager: industrial designer: i do n't th it will be rolling a lot . marketing: yeah but i li i like your idea that we should n't have a lot of buttons b buttons so project manager: okay . yeah and you you you will not have pla enough a lot of place to put a lcd on a banana also . user interface: yeah . marketing: uh do you want a an lcd with twenty five euros ? project manager: well , you 're the marketing expert you should tell us if it is too much or not . user interface: well , this is marketing: i think well , according to the to the report people are more interested in in a fa fancy look and feel and in a technological inno in innovation , project manager: marketing: so , i will give more importance to the look and feel than rather than the project manager: so so you you you suggest to go f marketing: new inputs and also it 's i 'm not convinced about this lcd because you need uh internet connection , you need more things , it 's not just buying a new control re remote , you need buying control remote , buying uh project manager: okay . s so you 're simply marketing: more things . it 's not so simple . project manager: you 're simply looking s to a remote control that looks like a banana with few buttons with only a few buttons . marketing: for instance , yeah . yeah for for for given an an example yeah . project manager: okay good . so maybe you can go ahead ? marketing: yeah no , it 's what i already said . project manager: okay . thanks . um . okay , i 'll give the floor . so you are user interface guy . so you 're three ? user interface: okay . yeah . project manager: and it 's this one . user interface: yep . project manager: go for it . user interface: yep . okay . so . s next uh slide . okay . so i received an email um around lunchtime letting me know that the brilliant minds at our technology division had developed an integrated programmable sample sensor sample speaker unit , um which is a way for you to have a conversation with your coffee machine and or remote control . industrial designer: but it 's just a speaker right ? user interface: it 's no , what it is , it 's it 's very industrial designer: it 's not a microphone . user interface: it has a has a microphone , has a speaker , it 's got a little chip and it allows you t industrial designer: mm-hmm . actually i 'm not reading microphone there , so that 's why you can all have conversation , it just to speak to you . user interface: well , it 's a sample sensor sample speaker . sample sensor sample speaker . it means that it can recognize , it can do like a match on a on a certain phrase that you speak and then can play back a phrase in response to that . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: but uh there 's no kind of um understanding of the phrase . so , i mean , you know , industrial designer: okay . user interface: i guess you could build that in , you could you could link the the recognition of a certain phrase to some function on on the remote control . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: but basically the thing is , we have this technology available industrial designer: in-house . user interface: in-house . so , um industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: but the thing is obviously there 's still gon na be a cost if you decided to integrate that because you still have to pay for the c production of the components , industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: so um it it but it basically means we c we can kind of consider this from uh you know uh a theoretical or usability kind of viewpoint without worrying too much about you know how to develop it because we have this already done . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: whilst you know , some people might get annoyed if we uh if we just dump it , project manager: i there 's something that i unclear really understanding . is this a technology that recognize keywords speech keywords ? user interface: it 's it it 's no , well , it 's it 'll recognize uh i guess keywords , but you know keywords in a certain order like a phrase . you train it for a certain uh , for a certain phrase , you say the the example they said that they have uh up and running with their prototype is um well they 've actually integrated into the into the the coffee machine that uh that we 're producing is , you can say good morning to the coffee machine and it can recognize that phrase and it 'll playback good morning , how would you like your coffee ? project manager: and it 's just to , it 's just to playback something ? user interface: yeah . so actually that was a bad example , 'cause it does n't actually ask how do you want your coffee because it ca n't really understand the response , so . project manager: yeah yeah . so this is not s really to do to to do control . user interface: only , like , only in the sense that it it can recognize a set a set target kind of word an project manager: yeah . this is just more like a poi pois yeah . user interface: it 's designed it 's designed as a fun kind of thing , project manager: yeah yeah . user interface: but i guess you could use it as uh as a way to implement uh project manager: so it it 's c uh it it marketing: yeah but you can u project manager: it is a uh uh easy uh a fancy thing that you you can bring to we can bring to the remote control that will not have any uh user interface: completely pointless yeah . project manager: yeah comp completely pointless for the inter for from the interaction point of v point of view . user interface: yeah . yeah , unless you know , you like having conversation with your remote control . project manager: okay . user interface: marketing: yeah but the can we use it for saying okay , channel fifty , channel twenty ? user interface: well yeah , that 's the thing , if you can but you have to pro though i think it 's a fairly simple design so you would have to record into the device every possible combination , you have to s tr train it to l to learn channel fifteen , that whole thing , not just the word channel and the word fifteen , it does n't have that kind of logic in it . project manager: yeah yeah . so this is so this is this is much more than tak taking this technology , bringing it to the remote control and using it . user interface: so industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , that would be some development work . project manager: so this is out of discussion . so if if if it is something that you can we can bring easily and to put it into the banana remote control user interface: yeah . marketing: m mando . user interface: banana-mando . project manager: no this is mm banana-bando , yeah . user interface: banana-man marketing: banana-mando yeah . project manager: uh then it could be cool yeah . marketing: project manager: user interface: industrial designer: yeah okay , let 's go ahead . project manager: okay . user interface: i uh i i i do n't think it 's worth it though , i think it does n't really add much to the functional design and it 's it 's it 's not mature enough to use as a speech recognition engine , so project manager: okay . user interface: um , yeah . so if we can just move on to the next slide , i 've just done a quick mock-up of uh uh some of the features of our potential funky-looking uh remote control marketing: project manager: it does n't look like a banana at all . user interface: well , you see , i was i was unaware at this point of th of the fruit focus , project manager: yeah . user interface: um , so at the moment it 's more of a box focus . project manager: but you you can fit i you 're saying now you can fit it to marketing: looks like a tr look likes a a tro a tropical fruit . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , well , this is actu this could be a genetically engineered fruit that 's designed to be you know square so that it packs tighter in the boxes . marketing: yeah . user interface: but um , i 've just indicated here , we could have actually two scroll wheels , 'cause i think the scroll wheel is a fairly um key part of , you know , industrial designer: stable thing , that 's right . to have , user interface: i think everyone has has agreed that it 's that it could be quite a useful um thing , so . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: but i think it 's important , you know , to have two scroll wheels because , you know , you want one for for the channel , but you also want one for for the volume , project manager: mm . user interface: because it 's it 's the volume i it 's , you know it 's very handy for it to have uh instant kind of uh feedback uh and response , so . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: but um , i 've also included this turbo button because i think , you know , every design should have a turbo button , and well marketing: what 's a turbo button ? user interface: so this is you know , a unique problem with with televisions is that if you have this scro this scroll wheel for the television , the uh the tuner on the tv is not gon na be able to to switch between stations as fast as you can scroll , so you know , the th the person might want to have a uh might want to be able to scroll past television stations without seeing what 's on them , in which case it just waits until you stop scrolling and then , you know , displays that station . or they might want to scroll and and have a quick glimpse of it , even if it lags behind what they 're doing . marketing: it con it controls the speed ? user interface: yeah , so with this turbo button you can , say , skip over t channels if uh , you know , if i 'm if i 'm going if i 'm scrolling past them and you know , it 's um , you could have a little red light that comes up when they press it so they feel you know it 's really going fast or whatever . project manager: user interface: so yeah , that 's um , those are the two important uh features i think we need on the remote , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: but i mean we can discuss about what other kind of buttons we need , um . you know , i it could be , you know , if we if we wan na have like a very cheap kind of device , i mean , we could either consider that maybe we want to sell this as a very , if it 's gon na be a banana , you know that 's a pretty gimmicky kind of thing that does n't have that much functionality , it 's just you know a couple of scroll wheels and a button cause it 's hard to get so many buttons on a banana project manager: it 's enough . user interface: and it 's still very it may even be for most for some people more functional than their current remote , but if they have these scroll wheels , so , um you know , what other buttons do we want ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: i mean we could have well , i guess you need an on and off switch , project manager: switch on . yeah . user interface: but you could you could o you could turn it turn it on by taking the top off the banana maybe , you know , it 's kind of like a spy kind of flick thing . marketing: yeah . so sounds crazy . i like crazy ideas . user interface: that 's why you 're a marketing guru . industrial designer: project manager: okay . marketing: yeah , of course . project manager: so i it looks like we 're going completely to forget about the lcd thing . user interface: well , that 's the thing , as have we decided that we can only spend , uh , twenty five euro ? project manager: i think that user interface: well not spend , but you know , charge twenty five euro . marketing: i i think we could use somehow the s coffee machine dialogue interface or so . project manager: no we can we ca n't use that . marketing: you we can ? we ca n't . project manager: we ca n't use that to to comman co communicate , industrial designer: communicate . project manager: it 's just a thing marketing: yeah , but we can say channel twenty five . industrial designer: it 's one way . project manager: no . marketing: no ? user interface: but then you have to have a template for every channel , for a hundred channels , you have to be able to to recognize industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: it 's not a lot one hundred templates , user interface: mm . well , i f i think it 's probably more than , than our can handle because it 's designed for a coffee machine , you know , to say hello in the morning . marketing: it 's not project manager: yeah . marketing: ah , it 's designed for a cof okay . is it design for a coffee machine ? user interface: well that 's its current application , i would presume that it 's kind of , they would n't design it to handle a hundred things th so . marketing: okay . yeah . maybe you could ask your the you could ask the engineering department if we can project manager: yeah . a good good good thing . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: you want to g to move to your slides ? user interface: but uh industrial designer: yeah , that 's right , yeah . project manager: you 're finished ? user interface: well i just i just made the point , i do n't i do n't know if that speech recognition is , you know , even if we can do it , i think it 's not really appropriate for uh television environment . project manager: yeah i think so . user interface: but um i did have one thing from a previous meeting , you were talking about um being able to find the remote control marketing: yeah . user interface: and i was talking about extendin being able to extend the remote control by having you know , a base station that can control other things as well . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: it might be useful to have some kind of base station , even if it 's just you press on a button on it and uh and the remote control starts beeping , you know , this is a way of finding the remote . project manager: mm . user interface: y in that case maybe the maybe the speech recognition the speech thing could be useful just to say i 'm here project manager: exactly yeah . user interface: but uh it 's probably a bit of overkill if you could just have a a beeping industrial designer: so it 's a speech synthesis kind of thing , user interface: it 's speech industrial designer: something has been uh stored and it 's just uh spoken out . user interface: it 's it 's speech synthesis and s it 's speech kind of , not really speech recognition , but kind of pattern matching , yeah industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: oh , good idea . industrial designer: yeah . that 's right . project manager: very good . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , let 's move on . so you 're two ? industrial designer: that 's right . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so this is going to be about the component design . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so first thing is we need power source for the remote control . so i was of the idea that we can have two kind of power supplies , one is the usual batteries which are there , they could be chargeable batteries if there 's a basis station kind of thing and on top of that we can have solar cells , when the lighting conditions are good they can be used so it 'll be pretty uh innovative kind . then uh we need plastic with some elasticity so that if your if the remote control falls it 's not broken directly into pieces , there should be some flexibility in t user interface: i guess that fits in with the spongy kind of design philosophy . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . so there should we should think of something like that and then it should be double curve . the s science for the ease of handling and there are some other issues why we need double curve . then controls for the traditionals u traditional users we can have the push buttons so that they do n't feel that it 's an alien thing for them . user interface: so , just one second , when you say double curve , what do you actually mean ? you reckon you could like draw us a thing on the , on the whiteboard 'cause i 'm not sure industrial designer: double curve is , you have curves on both the sides if i 'm right . so it 's symmetrical kind of thing , whatever it is . user interface: okay , but like , kind of convex or concave ? industrial designer: so , it could be curve , so it could be convex , conve concave , depending on what what we want . project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: user interface: okay . industrial designer: so there are flats , there are single curve and there are double curves . user interface: okay . industrial designer: these are the three things , and there are different materials , with plastic you can have double curve but with uh certain other materials we can not have double curve . so there there was uh there were many other materials like wood , titanium and all those things , but plastic is i think is the most appropriate one , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: it 'll bring the cost down user interface: although , you know , wood could be uh quite a stylish uh option , industrial designer: and anyway it 's user interface: if you take like , nice quality kind of wood that 's got a nice grain and you kind of put some , some varnish on . project manager: mm but i but there is no elasticity which could be industrial designer: wooden cases user interface: well it depends , i mean , you have the outs the wood itself is not gon na break so you do n't have to worry too much about the case being broken , project manager: yeah but the components inside . user interface: it 's the inside . yeah but inside you know you could have you can still have some kind of cushioning that 's not visible to the to the user . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: very too expensive to do . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . project manager: and also uh user interface: and i mean you could also , you can have just a very thin veneer of wood as well . project manager: yeah but it 's more easier to do a banana in plastic than uh in wood . user interface: that 's true , but are we set on the banana idea ? industrial designer: project manager: well it look like marketing: actually project manager: it looks like you are all targeting that marketing: i was thinking that the user interface: project manager: yeah ? marketing: the shape of a banana is not it 's not really handy . project manager: yes it is . marketing: uh i do n't know the name o o in english uh this industrial designer: is it an e apple which has marketing: it 's not a fruit it 's a vegetable . user interface: it 's like a pumpkin or project manager: yeah ? pumpkin . marketing: green . project manager: green . user interface: green . project manager: um um um , yes i see . user interface: what does it taste like ? marketing: and you put in the salad . project manager: pep pepperoni . user interface: ah yeah , marketing: um user interface: is it what 's it in french ? project manager: poivron . marketing: oui c'est ca user interface: yeah , okay , so capsicum or pepper . yeah . project manager: uh pepper . marketing: pepper . project manager: but um they do d marketing: and it 's al it also suits with the double curve for easy of project manager: yeah . user interface: i do n't know , it seems a little bit kind of bulky to me , like project manager: yeah . marketing: no , i mean in a project manager: it 's not re it user interface: like with a banana you can have project manager: you you think it 's really fancy and fun ? you think that young people that are marketing: i 'm sure it 's fun . project manager: yeah . more than a banana ? marketing: but banana is not so handy , user interface: well industrial designer: banana is more handier as compared to this i think , and to capsicum . marketing: i think that 's handier . user interface: but like a banana you can you can be holding like this and have the scroll wheel kind of on top project manager: yeah . user interface: and just roll it back and forth like that , project manager: it 's kind it 's kind of it 's more uh user interface: but with uh i do n't know how you would hold a capsicum and project manager: it 's really ergonomic , it 's fit in the hand and you 've a lot of surface to to put the controls . marketing: user interface: project manager: okay let 's move on . marketing: yeah you 're right . project manager: so time is running , let 's move on . industrial designer: okay , so push buttons for the traditional users so that they do n't feel they are alienated , just and a scroll button with push technology for channel selection , volume control and teletext browsing . these are the three scroll buttons which are already available with us in the company and we we can go ahead with that . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , we can go to the next slide . then uh there are different kind of chips , one one is the basic chip and the regular chip and one an adva advanced chip . so we can have regular chip for control . pricing is a factor for us , that 's why we 'll go for the regular chip . and uh regular chip supports speaker support , so this functionality could be used for tracing the mobile phone which has been misplaced . user interface: so is that , when you say speaker support , you mean it just has some output pinned which which which kind of industrial designer: it could be a beep kind of thing . user interface: okay , but the speaker is actually attached to the to the chip in some way , or is just the the signal ? industrial designer: yes , yes , that 's right , it 's it 's onto the chip , user interface: okay . industrial designer: most most probably , not not hundred per cent sure about that . user interface: okay . so are there any issues where we place this this chip to make sure you can actually hear the the speaker from the outside of the banana ? industrial designer: that will be the volume control i think which which a user shou it it should be already pre-defined . it should be whatever will be the case , the chip is always going to be sitting inside . user interface: okay . yeah , but the speaker , if the speaker is actually on the chip , then if it 's too far away from the the casing , or if the casing is too thick , then you may not hear the the speaker . industrial designer: mm-hmm . uh , so we can have it at one of the boundaries so that things are slightly better . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: as or as hearing is concerned , we can have some gap at some place , user interface: yeah . so that 's something we have to keep in mind with the actual physical design is to keep the the speaker close enough to the outside . industrial designer: so that that 's right . okay . yeah . so these these were the component selection and these things . we can go to the next slide . and uh these were the findings which i i saw with the web web , that user wants to have control more than one device wants to control more than one device from the same remote control , so our tv remote can have little extra things to support additional devices like v_c_r_ d_v_d_ players which are usually attached with the tv , because users are like this and they do n't want to have one remote control for everything , so with this additional little , we might be having slightly better market for us . user interface: although , if it depends , if we like , if we are concentrating on like a fruit design , then maybe maybe we wan na sell a collection of fruit , you know , like a different fruit for each device . industrial designer: mm . of fruits . user interface: cause that , you know , that sometimes people like to collect um you know things that of a similar type . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: s objects . industrial designer: remotes objects , okay . project manager: crazy objects . marketing: i think that would be funny at the beginning but after one month you will be tired of be surrounded of fruits . user interface: well , you 're the one who wanted to do fruit in the first place . marketing: no but i think just one fruit to control everything . user interface: like a power fruit . marketing: a power fr a power m a mando , a supermando fruit . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: and uh as well as i could see on the web the scroll button is becoming really uh hot thing s project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and we should have it on the remote . project manager: okay , good . user interface: well marketing: actually i i did n't understand very well this trace speaker lost control . industrial designer: so you 're having a basis station . okay . your usually your remote sits on that . so you and it 's that 's why it can have chargeable batteries . now let 's say marketing: so you you have to buy two things , the banana and the basis station . project manager: bu it 's it 's . industrial designer: basis station is with the thing . project manager: you s you you thing . industrial designer: it 's like a telephone handset is there and the basis station for the telephone hand set is there . so now what user gets additionally he does n't have to buy batteries , they 're rechargeable batteries , so over the period of cor time he 'll recover the cost . so you 're having the basis station and there is a button , if you press that button wherever the remote it 'll start beeping so you know where the remote is . uh user interface: i think that 's a pretty handy feature . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: i think it 's kind of people would find that worth it even if it was n't uh a recharging station , even if they did n't have to buy extra batteries , you know . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm , mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: so marketing: yeah but i 'm a bit worried about the budget . industrial designer: uh this is basis station is nothing more , just it 's a wire which is coming from the main cable and uh you 're having one socket on which the thing sits . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: although you do need to include r_f_ kind of circuitry in the remote . industrial designer: that 's right . but all these things are usually in-house so we do n't have much problems . project manager: industrial designer: so component cost is going to be the least . anyway , we are not using really advanced technology , lcd has already been ruled out , a_s_r_ has been ruled out . so it 's the basic thing but very trendy and very user-friendly . user interface: okay . i 'm just wondering actually , 'cause , you know , i this whole fruit thing with the banana , it 's um it seemed like it first seems a bit kind of uh niche , like only a few people would really want a banana , industrial designer: and user interface: but what if it was kind of uh a stylised banana ? you know , rather than having it kind of you know yellow and really looking exactly like a banana , you could make it kind of silver . and um , you know to give you kind of the idea of a banana but without it looking you know completely kitsch . for better want of a better word project manager: you think that yellow it 's kitsch . user interface: you know ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: well , you know , i don i do n't know how many peop industrial designer: marketing: project manager: if you make something that looks like a banana it should have the colour of a banana . marketing: yeah . no , i i industrial designer: a yeah , otherwise it 'll be mis means you do n't get b any feeling then . user interface: well they project manager: o otherwise marketing: maybe li like that . industrial designer: it 's neither a banana nor a user interface: yeah , like this colour this colour maybe , you know , maybe like still in the shape of a banana . project manager: roughly . user interface: no , exactly . project manager: marketing: user interface: exactly . um , but you know , just maybe maybe not exactly the same texture as a banana and just kind of , you know because the thing is it 's gon na be a little bit difficult to make um to give like the texture of a banana anyway and to k to have the exact shape . i think if you 're gon na not be able to do it properly you may as well do it in a stylised way that just looks a bit more kind of , you know , twenty first century rather than sixties or seventies . project manager: yeah . okay . let 's move on . industrial designer: and uh going to the last slide . project manager: uh uh yeah . before before st before ending the meeting i 'd like to to draw some sketch about the pro future prot prototype . user interface: okay . project manager: go for it . industrial designer: okay . project manager: well no , not not you , you can finish your slides before industrial designer: okay . okay , so . anyway , users 'll be so the findings is users 'll be very interested in our locator device to find their misplaced remotes . project manager: mm okay . industrial designer: so that was very i thought it 's a very good suggestion by everybody . project manager: okay . industrial designer: that 's it . project manager: that 's all ? industrial designer: yep . project manager: okay , so mm so well done for the presentations . so we need to take some de decisions about um about what we 're going to do . user interface: project manager: so i i propose that you go to the whiteboard user interface: yeah . project manager: and we 're going to report all the ideas we had we had during this these presentations just to draw some sketch about what will be the prod final product user interface: okay . project manager: and uh where superman go banana and uh user interface: project manager: uh extra func functionalities such as wheels , um the speaker unit um well not in order not to lost the um the device , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: i do i do n't remember you call it ? industrial designer: that 's right . the basis station . that 's right . project manager: basis station , yeah . uh so um so we 're going for a stylish banana shape . user interface: yeah , so , i guess you wan na hold like the way the end of the banana you wan na kind of hold as ma you maybe wan na kinda hold like a gun rather than 'cause you do n't want it to point kind of towards the floor . project manager: yeah , right . user interface: so you know , so if you have like marketing: what about what about this shape ? more or less . project manager: we industrial designer: there 's less space on this to put with the buttons . project manager: i if it i if it has really the model shape of a bana you could marketing: yeah , but how many buttons do we need ? project manager: the the starting is good but it could it should have more the shape of a banana if you want to point really a at the thing . if you do n't want to to to do that movement which is which is difficult if you do n't have to do it in fact , it 's better . so ti time is running , industrial designer: uh what about a project manager: we have to we have to we have to to move forward . so let 's skip to uh this uh this this this idea . yeah . user interface: okay , so project manager: so we have this . user interface: so project manager: we have a a basis um , how do you call it ? industrial designer: the base station . project manager: a base station . industrial designer: right . project manager: we 'll have a base station extra uh on the side . user interface: okay , so i guess we need , you know , something that can fit a banana shaped object . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: uh , we have a r_f_ for um for beeping for beeping . industrial designer: that 's right , yeah , we need that , yeah . project manager: we need b r_f_ to beep . user interface: okay , so it 's uh project manager: so we that means we need a button on th on the on the basis . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: basis station . project manager: basis station , thank you . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: alright , so we need uh okay . project manager: can you go quickly please ? user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . so we are going to add uh also um you as you suggested the whee some wheels to control the volumes and channels and your tur turbo turbo uh button . user interface: yeah . yeah , which i think it 's it 's probably best actually on the on the underneath of the the device , industrial designer: turbo button . project manager: yeah , on the th yeah , maybe here . user interface: so you have project manager: and the and the wheel a a at the level of the thumb for instance . user interface: yes . yeah , so you have the thumb kind of here . project manager: and and you have two wheels . user interface: so yeah , you need one one here and one on on the other side , so you got volume an and channel . project manager: okay right . good . so no lcd . user interface: and , uh no lcd . project manager: okay great . um . very good . user interface: oh we need a we need a power um on off switch as well . industrial designer: okay . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: uh for the remote ? user interface: yeah . project manager: oh , just the switch , industrial designer: remotes do n't have power on off switch . project manager: no f not for the tv for the tv . uh so you user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . s no , that 'll be controlled by the those buttons 'll be there already , yeah . marketing: what a user interface: where ? industrial designer: means on the remote . project manager: on the side . user interface: okay . industrial designer: because remote is going to have both the interfaces , scroll as well as buttons . they are not going to cost you much , everything is in-house and now you do n't want the traditional users to be apprehensive of this . user interface: well , i dunno if the traditional user is gon na buy a a banana remote in the first place , you know . industrial designer: oh , yeah . that 's that 's another issue which i did n't think of . user interface: y i mean you need to kind of keep it um industrial designer: but you know our targets are very high , means fifty million euros is the profit which we want make . marketing: what about user interface: yeah , how many of these did we wan na sell ? i ca n't remember , industrial designer: twenty five . project manager: twenty five . industrial designer: twelve point five is the profit on one . marketing: user interface: yeah , but how many units did we need to to sell ? industrial designer: uh forty th four . point point four million ? marketing: four millions ? user interface: four point four million . industrial designer: point four million . user interface: that 's a lot of fruit . industrial designer: in the market . user interface: marketing: what about a project manager: yeah . so . well . no . time is running , we have to close the meeting in a few minutes . user interface: okay . project manager: so , okay , the next step , you can come back to your seat . user interface: okay . project manager: the next step is to go for to f is to go to uh to building a prototype , based on this , okay ? user interface: okay . project manager: so next meeting you guys have to prepare the followi things . you have to uh work on the look and feel uh design and you have to work on the user interface , in fact you two you have to work together to model the first uh f first prototype . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: uh marketing expert uh have to go to product evaluation . user interface: project manager: okay ? marketing: i wo what about adding the this word spotting , keyword spotting recognition saying volume up volume down ? project manager: it 's too difficult . marketing: it 's too difficult but people like innovation and that 's really uh innovative and i do n't know if it would cost a lot , just a few five words . project manager: it 's not a possi it will not be possible to implement it for the next prototype , so t it 's in the next prototype so let 's skip it . user interface: uh . marketing: okay . industrial designer: for the future prototypes . project manager: yeah , maybe , for the n if if if it it works well , we 'll go for uh an orange one . user interface: that can be the t that can be like the turbo banana plus plus commando . industrial designer: project manager: yeah yeah , honour the fruit . marketing: plus plus , okay . maybe objective banana ? project manager: okay . user interface: project manager: thanks very much . we 'll see n next meeting . bye . user interface: okay . industrial designer: so meeting 's over ? user interface: yep . we have to go design the prototype . industrial designer: okay . okay . okay . thank you . project manager: thank you . marketing: thank you . industrial designer: the problem is after all this meeting there is { gap }

project manager started meeting on the conceptual design of the remote control . marketing gave a presentation on the preference of users which was easy to use with a fancy look . also , marketing suggested the remote control to be the shape of cool fruits with fewer buttons because they should target the young user group that would be keen on new device innovation . next , user interface presented on the sample of sensor speaker but did n't recommend it because it did n't add too much functional design and it was not mature to use it as a speech recognition engine . the group agreed with user interface to have two scroll wheels with turbo button and switch on button . then , industrial designer gave a presentation on the component design . the group decided to use a power source with spongy design and double curve chip for easy handling . lastly , project manager helped conclude the features on the upcoming prototype presentation and asked group mates to prepare individually on it .

ummarize the group discussion about the presentation on the preference of users . </s> project manager: okay ? good afternoon . hope you have good lunch . user interface: hi . industrial designer: afternoon . yeah , we had falafel . project manager: oh . nice . and you ? user interface: uh , yes , i had something similar but non-vegetarian . project manager: okay . so today is um our third meeting . it will be about the conceptual design uh . if i come back to uh the minutes of the last meetings um . we decided not to go for speech recognition technologies because of some reasons and we are not decided about u the use of lcd screen on on the remote control because of costs . so maybe we cou wi will be able to clarify this this question to today . uh at the end of the meeting we should take decision on that point . so i hope uh that your respective pr presentations uh will help us . so each of you have some presentatio presentation to perform um who starts ? marketing: okay , . project manager: so marketing . marketing: industrial designer: project manager: so you are you saved your y your presentation somewhere ? marketing: yep . project manager: so you 're four ? marketing: four , yeah . project manager: which is trend watch . okay . mr marketing experts . marketing: yeah that 's me . project manager: so marketing: uh . well i investigate the preference more d i investigate deeper the preference of the users . uh so the the current investigation th uh th uh sorry the current the n current trends ? user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah ? okay . okay . well wha what i found um can you project manager: next slide ? yeah . marketing: yeah . thank you . what i found in order of importance from less to more important is that people want an easy to use device . after they they want something new technologic technologically speaking , but the most what they what they find more more interesting , more or more important it 's uh a fancy look and feel instead of uh instead of the current the current trend which was f the functional look and feel . industrial designer: marketing: so now more more cool aspect , ma more a cooler aspect uh rather than a device with many functions and many buttons with instead of i instead of ha of a device which can do many things , a device which is pleasant to to watch , to see . project manager: okay . marketing: uh also well in in euro in in paris and and milan the user interface: industrial designer: marketing: in paris and in paris and milan the the current trend of uh of clothes , furniture and all this all this fashion it 's it 's fruit and the the the theme is fruit and vegetables . user interface: project manager: mm . marketing: and also in the in the u_s_a_ the the current the mor the most popular feeling it 's it 's a spongy . spongy means eponge ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so maybe we should we should think in in this direction , so user interface: what what do you mean by fruit and vegetables and spongy ? marketing: user interface: what you mean clothe industrial designer: spongy means it it 's like sp marketing: fruit vegetables is the the new have you seen the last exposition of clothes in milan ? user interface: no , i missed that one . marketing: yeah , i i did n't miss an project manager: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: i did n't miss and i saw that the fruit , there are many fr pictures of fruits and vegetables in the clothes . user interface: oh , they 're okay so they 're not like dressed as a carrot they just have like pictures of fruit on , okay . marketing: no no , not not yet , not yet . project manager: marketing: yeah , yeah . user interface: so we 're not gon na have a remote control in the shape of of a banana , marketing: so te textu textures , yeah . user interface: just maybe marketing: yeah . user interface: marketing: vegetable textures and all this kind . project manager: drawings of bananas . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: uh user interface: okay and project manager: uh-huh . marketing: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: but what 's your suggestion how we can have some shape like that on the remote ? project manager: well so this is in the next slide certainly . marketing: uh no no , it 's not . project manager: it 's not ? user interface: marketing: it 's user interface: so which fruit are you thinking of ? marketing: and um . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: i ha i have n't thought of any particular fruit , but the general aspect of the of the remote control may may could remind some kind of vegetable , some kind of instead of vegetable , some natur mm uh natural object or something . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: but yeah it it depends on the project manager: so maybe you maybe you can display a banana on the lcd . user interface: oh , so you want the remote control to be the shape of a fruit , project manager: user interface: or you want just some kind of like fruit logo on the industrial designer: means buttons are in the shape of fruits , marketing: yeah maybe the shape the shape industrial designer: buttons are in the frape shape of fruits or something , apple , banana , something like that . marketing: no , not n not not too much focus , not too much focu not n not too s not too similar to a fruit because next year the ten the trend the trend will be different . project manager: apple for channel one . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: so we should n't be at re really attached to to the trend user interface: so something that looks half like a fruit and half like an elephant . marketing: but for instance , yeah . african or as an elephant ? industrial designer: that we can discuss afterwards . project manager: okay . user interface: but okay , marketing: user interface: i 'm not , i 'm not really sure if uh that would really appeal to everyone though , maybe just to fashion gurus , like maybe just like a little bit n a little fruit picture somewhere in the corner , but i do n't know about uh i dunno how ergonomic a , an orange is . marketing: well ma maybe we we should further specify what target are we focusing . i think in my opinion we should focus on on young people because they are more open to new devi new devices user interface: to fruit ? marketing: and also yeah according to the marketing report ninety p ninety five percent of young people was was was able to to buy a a n a cooler remote control . user interface: but is it uh is fruit cool ? marketing: what ? project manager: that 's a question . marketing: what ? user interface: is fruit cool ? marketing: yeah ? uh is the new trend of the user interface: well i guess , you know , apple has the ipod so , imagi marketing: user interface: just 'cause they have an apple on their on their product , does n't mean fruit is cool . marketing: no i think we we should think about a a shape with it a device with a shape of some user interface: okay , but it has to be easy to uh to use though and to hold you know , you do n't wan na pear or a watermelon . marketing: yeah . don do n't you think we can find uh the shape of a fruit which is handy to use ? user interface: well , probably the only thing is a banana that i can think of , industrial designer: banana . user interface: a cucumber . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: maybe too long . user interface: i dunno . marketing: or m user interface: maybe . too green . marketing: maybe . project manager: user interface: so , but i mean you also have to you have to also have , fit r all the buttons and you know . project manager: a banana . marketing: um user interface: it 's , it marketing: yeah . user interface: the thing is you have t normally with um with buttons , they have to be at some point attached to a circuit board so if you 're gon na have things like on a cylindrical kind of device it may be difficult to kind of to build . project manager: industrial designer: i do n't th it will be rolling a lot . marketing: yeah but i li i like your idea that we should n't have a lot of buttons b buttons so project manager: okay . yeah and you you you will not have pla enough a lot of place to put a lcd on a banana also . user interface: yeah . marketing: uh do you want a an lcd with twenty five euros ? project manager: well , you 're the marketing expert you should tell us if it is too much or not . user interface: well , this is marketing: i think well , according to the to the report people are more interested in in a fa fancy look and feel and in a technological inno in innovation , project manager: marketing: so , i will give more importance to the look and feel than rather than the project manager: so so you you you suggest to go f marketing: new inputs and also it 's i 'm not convinced about this lcd because you need uh internet connection , you need more things , it 's not just buying a new control re remote , you need buying control remote , buying uh project manager: okay . s so you 're simply marketing: more things . it 's not so simple . project manager: you 're simply looking s to a remote control that looks like a banana with few buttons with only a few buttons . marketing: for instance , yeah . yeah for for for given an an example yeah . project manager: okay good . so maybe you can go ahead ? marketing: yeah no , it 's what i already said . project manager: okay . thanks . um . okay , i 'll give the floor . so you are user interface guy . so you 're three ? user interface: okay . yeah . project manager: and it 's this one . user interface: yep . project manager: go for it . user interface: yep . okay . so . s next uh slide . okay . so i received an email um around lunchtime letting me know that the brilliant minds at our technology division had developed an integrated programmable sample sensor sample speaker unit , um which is a way for you to have a conversation with your coffee machine and or remote control . industrial designer: but it 's just a speaker right ? user interface: it 's no , what it is , it 's it 's very industrial designer: it 's not a microphone . user interface: it has a has a microphone , has a speaker , it 's got a little chip and it allows you t industrial designer: mm-hmm . actually i 'm not reading microphone there , so that 's why you can all have conversation , it just to speak to you . user interface: well , it 's a sample sensor sample speaker . sample sensor sample speaker . it means that it can recognize , it can do like a match on a on a certain phrase that you speak and then can play back a phrase in response to that . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: but uh there 's no kind of um understanding of the phrase . so , i mean , you know , industrial designer: okay . user interface: i guess you could build that in , you could you could link the the recognition of a certain phrase to some function on on the remote control . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: but basically the thing is , we have this technology available industrial designer: in-house . user interface: in-house . so , um industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: but the thing is obviously there 's still gon na be a cost if you decided to integrate that because you still have to pay for the c production of the components , industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: so um it it but it basically means we c we can kind of consider this from uh you know uh a theoretical or usability kind of viewpoint without worrying too much about you know how to develop it because we have this already done . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: whilst you know , some people might get annoyed if we uh if we just dump it , project manager: i there 's something that i unclear really understanding . is this a technology that recognize keywords speech keywords ? user interface: it 's it it 's no , well , it 's it 'll recognize uh i guess keywords , but you know keywords in a certain order like a phrase . you train it for a certain uh , for a certain phrase , you say the the example they said that they have uh up and running with their prototype is um well they 've actually integrated into the into the the coffee machine that uh that we 're producing is , you can say good morning to the coffee machine and it can recognize that phrase and it 'll playback good morning , how would you like your coffee ? project manager: and it 's just to , it 's just to playback something ? user interface: yeah . so actually that was a bad example , 'cause it does n't actually ask how do you want your coffee because it ca n't really understand the response , so . project manager: yeah yeah . so this is not s really to do to to do control . user interface: only , like , only in the sense that it it can recognize a set a set target kind of word an project manager: yeah . this is just more like a poi pois yeah . user interface: it 's designed it 's designed as a fun kind of thing , project manager: yeah yeah . user interface: but i guess you could use it as uh as a way to implement uh project manager: so it it 's c uh it it marketing: yeah but you can u project manager: it is a uh uh easy uh a fancy thing that you you can bring to we can bring to the remote control that will not have any uh user interface: completely pointless yeah . project manager: yeah comp completely pointless for the inter for from the interaction point of v point of view . user interface: yeah . yeah , unless you know , you like having conversation with your remote control . project manager: okay . user interface: marketing: yeah but the can we use it for saying okay , channel fifty , channel twenty ? user interface: well yeah , that 's the thing , if you can but you have to pro though i think it 's a fairly simple design so you would have to record into the device every possible combination , you have to s tr train it to l to learn channel fifteen , that whole thing , not just the word channel and the word fifteen , it does n't have that kind of logic in it . project manager: yeah yeah . so this is so this is this is much more than tak taking this technology , bringing it to the remote control and using it . user interface: so industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , that would be some development work . project manager: so this is out of discussion . so if if if it is something that you can we can bring easily and to put it into the banana remote control user interface: yeah . marketing: m mando . user interface: banana-mando . project manager: no this is mm banana-bando , yeah . user interface: banana-man marketing: banana-mando yeah . project manager: uh then it could be cool yeah . marketing: project manager: user interface: industrial designer: yeah okay , let 's go ahead . project manager: okay . user interface: i uh i i i do n't think it 's worth it though , i think it does n't really add much to the functional design and it 's it 's it 's not mature enough to use as a speech recognition engine , so project manager: okay . user interface: um , yeah . so if we can just move on to the next slide , i 've just done a quick mock-up of uh uh some of the features of our potential funky-looking uh remote control marketing: project manager: it does n't look like a banana at all . user interface: well , you see , i was i was unaware at this point of th of the fruit focus , project manager: yeah . user interface: um , so at the moment it 's more of a box focus . project manager: but you you can fit i you 're saying now you can fit it to marketing: looks like a tr look likes a a tro a tropical fruit . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , well , this is actu this could be a genetically engineered fruit that 's designed to be you know square so that it packs tighter in the boxes . marketing: yeah . user interface: but um , i 've just indicated here , we could have actually two scroll wheels , 'cause i think the scroll wheel is a fairly um key part of , you know , industrial designer: stable thing , that 's right . to have , user interface: i think everyone has has agreed that it 's that it could be quite a useful um thing , so . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: but i think it 's important , you know , to have two scroll wheels because , you know , you want one for for the channel , but you also want one for for the volume , project manager: mm . user interface: because it 's it 's the volume i it 's , you know it 's very handy for it to have uh instant kind of uh feedback uh and response , so . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: but um , i 've also included this turbo button because i think , you know , every design should have a turbo button , and well marketing: what 's a turbo button ? user interface: so this is you know , a unique problem with with televisions is that if you have this scro this scroll wheel for the television , the uh the tuner on the tv is not gon na be able to to switch between stations as fast as you can scroll , so you know , the th the person might want to have a uh might want to be able to scroll past television stations without seeing what 's on them , in which case it just waits until you stop scrolling and then , you know , displays that station . or they might want to scroll and and have a quick glimpse of it , even if it lags behind what they 're doing . marketing: it con it controls the speed ? user interface: yeah , so with this turbo button you can , say , skip over t channels if uh , you know , if i 'm if i 'm going if i 'm scrolling past them and you know , it 's um , you could have a little red light that comes up when they press it so they feel you know it 's really going fast or whatever . project manager: user interface: so yeah , that 's um , those are the two important uh features i think we need on the remote , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: but i mean we can discuss about what other kind of buttons we need , um . you know , i it could be , you know , if we if we wan na have like a very cheap kind of device , i mean , we could either consider that maybe we want to sell this as a very , if it 's gon na be a banana , you know that 's a pretty gimmicky kind of thing that does n't have that much functionality , it 's just you know a couple of scroll wheels and a button cause it 's hard to get so many buttons on a banana project manager: it 's enough . user interface: and it 's still very it may even be for most for some people more functional than their current remote , but if they have these scroll wheels , so , um you know , what other buttons do we want ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: i mean we could have well , i guess you need an on and off switch , project manager: switch on . yeah . user interface: but you could you could o you could turn it turn it on by taking the top off the banana maybe , you know , it 's kind of like a spy kind of flick thing . marketing: yeah . so sounds crazy . i like crazy ideas . user interface: that 's why you 're a marketing guru . industrial designer: project manager: okay . marketing: yeah , of course . project manager: so i it looks like we 're going completely to forget about the lcd thing . user interface: well , that 's the thing , as have we decided that we can only spend , uh , twenty five euro ? project manager: i think that user interface: well not spend , but you know , charge twenty five euro . marketing: i i think we could use somehow the s coffee machine dialogue interface or so . project manager: no we can we ca n't use that . marketing: you we can ? we ca n't . project manager: we ca n't use that to to comman co communicate , industrial designer: communicate . project manager: it 's just a thing marketing: yeah , but we can say channel twenty five . industrial designer: it 's one way . project manager: no . marketing: no ? user interface: but then you have to have a template for every channel , for a hundred channels , you have to be able to to recognize industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: it 's not a lot one hundred templates , user interface: mm . well , i f i think it 's probably more than , than our can handle because it 's designed for a coffee machine , you know , to say hello in the morning . marketing: it 's not project manager: yeah . marketing: ah , it 's designed for a cof okay . is it design for a coffee machine ? user interface: well that 's its current application , i would presume that it 's kind of , they would n't design it to handle a hundred things th so . marketing: okay . yeah . maybe you could ask your the you could ask the engineering department if we can project manager: yeah . a good good good thing . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: you want to g to move to your slides ? user interface: but uh industrial designer: yeah , that 's right , yeah . project manager: you 're finished ? user interface: well i just i just made the point , i do n't i do n't know if that speech recognition is , you know , even if we can do it , i think it 's not really appropriate for uh television environment . project manager: yeah i think so . user interface: but um i did have one thing from a previous meeting , you were talking about um being able to find the remote control marketing: yeah . user interface: and i was talking about extendin being able to extend the remote control by having you know , a base station that can control other things as well . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: it might be useful to have some kind of base station , even if it 's just you press on a button on it and uh and the remote control starts beeping , you know , this is a way of finding the remote . project manager: mm . user interface: y in that case maybe the maybe the speech recognition the speech thing could be useful just to say i 'm here project manager: exactly yeah . user interface: but uh it 's probably a bit of overkill if you could just have a a beeping industrial designer: so it 's a speech synthesis kind of thing , user interface: it 's speech industrial designer: something has been uh stored and it 's just uh spoken out . user interface: it 's it 's speech synthesis and s it 's speech kind of , not really speech recognition , but kind of pattern matching , yeah industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: oh , good idea . industrial designer: yeah . that 's right . project manager: very good . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , let 's move on . so you 're two ? industrial designer: that 's right . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so this is going to be about the component design . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so first thing is we need power source for the remote control . so i was of the idea that we can have two kind of power supplies , one is the usual batteries which are there , they could be chargeable batteries if there 's a basis station kind of thing and on top of that we can have solar cells , when the lighting conditions are good they can be used so it 'll be pretty uh innovative kind . then uh we need plastic with some elasticity so that if your if the remote control falls it 's not broken directly into pieces , there should be some flexibility in t user interface: i guess that fits in with the spongy kind of design philosophy . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . so there should we should think of something like that and then it should be double curve . the s science for the ease of handling and there are some other issues why we need double curve . then controls for the traditionals u traditional users we can have the push buttons so that they do n't feel that it 's an alien thing for them . user interface: so , just one second , when you say double curve , what do you actually mean ? you reckon you could like draw us a thing on the , on the whiteboard 'cause i 'm not sure industrial designer: double curve is , you have curves on both the sides if i 'm right . so it 's symmetrical kind of thing , whatever it is . user interface: okay , but like , kind of convex or concave ? industrial designer: so , it could be curve , so it could be convex , conve concave , depending on what what we want . project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: user interface: okay . industrial designer: so there are flats , there are single curve and there are double curves . user interface: okay . industrial designer: these are the three things , and there are different materials , with plastic you can have double curve but with uh certain other materials we can not have double curve . so there there was uh there were many other materials like wood , titanium and all those things , but plastic is i think is the most appropriate one , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: it 'll bring the cost down user interface: although , you know , wood could be uh quite a stylish uh option , industrial designer: and anyway it 's user interface: if you take like , nice quality kind of wood that 's got a nice grain and you kind of put some , some varnish on . project manager: mm but i but there is no elasticity which could be industrial designer: wooden cases user interface: well it depends , i mean , you have the outs the wood itself is not gon na break so you do n't have to worry too much about the case being broken , project manager: yeah but the components inside . user interface: it 's the inside . yeah but inside you know you could have you can still have some kind of cushioning that 's not visible to the to the user . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: very too expensive to do . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . project manager: and also uh user interface: and i mean you could also , you can have just a very thin veneer of wood as well . project manager: yeah but it 's more easier to do a banana in plastic than uh in wood . user interface: that 's true , but are we set on the banana idea ? industrial designer: project manager: well it look like marketing: actually project manager: it looks like you are all targeting that marketing: i was thinking that the user interface: project manager: yeah ? marketing: the shape of a banana is not it 's not really handy . project manager: yes it is . marketing: uh i do n't know the name o o in english uh this industrial designer: is it an e apple which has marketing: it 's not a fruit it 's a vegetable . user interface: it 's like a pumpkin or project manager: yeah ? pumpkin . marketing: green . project manager: green . user interface: green . project manager: um um um , yes i see . user interface: what does it taste like ? marketing: and you put in the salad . project manager: pep pepperoni . user interface: ah yeah , marketing: um user interface: is it what 's it in french ? project manager: poivron . marketing: oui c'est ca user interface: yeah , okay , so capsicum or pepper . yeah . project manager: uh pepper . marketing: pepper . project manager: but um they do d marketing: and it 's al it also suits with the double curve for easy of project manager: yeah . user interface: i do n't know , it seems a little bit kind of bulky to me , like project manager: yeah . marketing: no , i mean in a project manager: it 's not re it user interface: like with a banana you can have project manager: you you think it 's really fancy and fun ? you think that young people that are marketing: i 'm sure it 's fun . project manager: yeah . more than a banana ? marketing: but banana is not so handy , user interface: well industrial designer: banana is more handier as compared to this i think , and to capsicum . marketing: i think that 's handier . user interface: but like a banana you can you can be holding like this and have the scroll wheel kind of on top project manager: yeah . user interface: and just roll it back and forth like that , project manager: it 's kind it 's kind of it 's more uh user interface: but with uh i do n't know how you would hold a capsicum and project manager: it 's really ergonomic , it 's fit in the hand and you 've a lot of surface to to put the controls . marketing: user interface: project manager: okay let 's move on . marketing: yeah you 're right . project manager: so time is running , let 's move on . industrial designer: okay , so push buttons for the traditional users so that they do n't feel they are alienated , just and a scroll button with push technology for channel selection , volume control and teletext browsing . these are the three scroll buttons which are already available with us in the company and we we can go ahead with that . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , we can go to the next slide . then uh there are different kind of chips , one one is the basic chip and the regular chip and one an adva advanced chip . so we can have regular chip for control . pricing is a factor for us , that 's why we 'll go for the regular chip . and uh regular chip supports speaker support , so this functionality could be used for tracing the mobile phone which has been misplaced . user interface: so is that , when you say speaker support , you mean it just has some output pinned which which which kind of industrial designer: it could be a beep kind of thing . user interface: okay , but the speaker is actually attached to the to the chip in some way , or is just the the signal ? industrial designer: yes , yes , that 's right , it 's it 's onto the chip , user interface: okay . industrial designer: most most probably , not not hundred per cent sure about that . user interface: okay . so are there any issues where we place this this chip to make sure you can actually hear the the speaker from the outside of the banana ? industrial designer: that will be the volume control i think which which a user shou it it should be already pre-defined . it should be whatever will be the case , the chip is always going to be sitting inside . user interface: okay . yeah , but the speaker , if the speaker is actually on the chip , then if it 's too far away from the the casing , or if the casing is too thick , then you may not hear the the speaker . industrial designer: mm-hmm . uh , so we can have it at one of the boundaries so that things are slightly better . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: as or as hearing is concerned , we can have some gap at some place , user interface: yeah . so that 's something we have to keep in mind with the actual physical design is to keep the the speaker close enough to the outside . industrial designer: so that that 's right . okay . yeah . so these these were the component selection and these things . we can go to the next slide . and uh these were the findings which i i saw with the web web , that user wants to have control more than one device wants to control more than one device from the same remote control , so our tv remote can have little extra things to support additional devices like v_c_r_ d_v_d_ players which are usually attached with the tv , because users are like this and they do n't want to have one remote control for everything , so with this additional little , we might be having slightly better market for us . user interface: although , if it depends , if we like , if we are concentrating on like a fruit design , then maybe maybe we wan na sell a collection of fruit , you know , like a different fruit for each device . industrial designer: mm . of fruits . user interface: cause that , you know , that sometimes people like to collect um you know things that of a similar type . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: s objects . industrial designer: remotes objects , okay . project manager: crazy objects . marketing: i think that would be funny at the beginning but after one month you will be tired of be surrounded of fruits . user interface: well , you 're the one who wanted to do fruit in the first place . marketing: no but i think just one fruit to control everything . user interface: like a power fruit . marketing: a power fr a power m a mando , a supermando fruit . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: and uh as well as i could see on the web the scroll button is becoming really uh hot thing s project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and we should have it on the remote . project manager: okay , good . user interface: well marketing: actually i i did n't understand very well this trace speaker lost control . industrial designer: so you 're having a basis station . okay . your usually your remote sits on that . so you and it 's that 's why it can have chargeable batteries . now let 's say marketing: so you you have to buy two things , the banana and the basis station . project manager: bu it 's it 's . industrial designer: basis station is with the thing . project manager: you s you you thing . industrial designer: it 's like a telephone handset is there and the basis station for the telephone hand set is there . so now what user gets additionally he does n't have to buy batteries , they 're rechargeable batteries , so over the period of cor time he 'll recover the cost . so you 're having the basis station and there is a button , if you press that button wherever the remote it 'll start beeping so you know where the remote is . uh user interface: i think that 's a pretty handy feature . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: i think it 's kind of people would find that worth it even if it was n't uh a recharging station , even if they did n't have to buy extra batteries , you know . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm , mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: so marketing: yeah but i 'm a bit worried about the budget . industrial designer: uh this is basis station is nothing more , just it 's a wire which is coming from the main cable and uh you 're having one socket on which the thing sits . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: although you do need to include r_f_ kind of circuitry in the remote . industrial designer: that 's right . but all these things are usually in-house so we do n't have much problems . project manager: industrial designer: so component cost is going to be the least . anyway , we are not using really advanced technology , lcd has already been ruled out , a_s_r_ has been ruled out . so it 's the basic thing but very trendy and very user-friendly . user interface: okay . i 'm just wondering actually , 'cause , you know , i this whole fruit thing with the banana , it 's um it seemed like it first seems a bit kind of uh niche , like only a few people would really want a banana , industrial designer: and user interface: but what if it was kind of uh a stylised banana ? you know , rather than having it kind of you know yellow and really looking exactly like a banana , you could make it kind of silver . and um , you know to give you kind of the idea of a banana but without it looking you know completely kitsch . for better want of a better word project manager: you think that yellow it 's kitsch . user interface: you know ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: well , you know , i don i do n't know how many peop industrial designer: marketing: project manager: if you make something that looks like a banana it should have the colour of a banana . marketing: yeah . no , i i industrial designer: a yeah , otherwise it 'll be mis means you do n't get b any feeling then . user interface: well they project manager: o otherwise marketing: maybe li like that . industrial designer: it 's neither a banana nor a user interface: yeah , like this colour this colour maybe , you know , maybe like still in the shape of a banana . project manager: roughly . user interface: no , exactly . project manager: marketing: user interface: exactly . um , but you know , just maybe maybe not exactly the same texture as a banana and just kind of , you know because the thing is it 's gon na be a little bit difficult to make um to give like the texture of a banana anyway and to k to have the exact shape . i think if you 're gon na not be able to do it properly you may as well do it in a stylised way that just looks a bit more kind of , you know , twenty first century rather than sixties or seventies . project manager: yeah . okay . let 's move on . industrial designer: and uh going to the last slide . project manager: uh uh yeah . before before st before ending the meeting i 'd like to to draw some sketch about the pro future prot prototype . user interface: okay . project manager: go for it . industrial designer: okay . project manager: well no , not not you , you can finish your slides before industrial designer: okay . okay , so . anyway , users 'll be so the findings is users 'll be very interested in our locator device to find their misplaced remotes . project manager: mm okay . industrial designer: so that was very i thought it 's a very good suggestion by everybody . project manager: okay . industrial designer: that 's it . project manager: that 's all ? industrial designer: yep . project manager: okay , so mm so well done for the presentations . so we need to take some de decisions about um about what we 're going to do . user interface: project manager: so i i propose that you go to the whiteboard user interface: yeah . project manager: and we 're going to report all the ideas we had we had during this these presentations just to draw some sketch about what will be the prod final product user interface: okay . project manager: and uh where superman go banana and uh user interface: project manager: uh extra func functionalities such as wheels , um the speaker unit um well not in order not to lost the um the device , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: i do i do n't remember you call it ? industrial designer: that 's right . the basis station . that 's right . project manager: basis station , yeah . uh so um so we 're going for a stylish banana shape . user interface: yeah , so , i guess you wan na hold like the way the end of the banana you wan na kind of hold as ma you maybe wan na kinda hold like a gun rather than 'cause you do n't want it to point kind of towards the floor . project manager: yeah , right . user interface: so you know , so if you have like marketing: what about what about this shape ? more or less . project manager: we industrial designer: there 's less space on this to put with the buttons . project manager: i if it i if it has really the model shape of a bana you could marketing: yeah , but how many buttons do we need ? project manager: the the starting is good but it could it should have more the shape of a banana if you want to point really a at the thing . if you do n't want to to to do that movement which is which is difficult if you do n't have to do it in fact , it 's better . so ti time is running , industrial designer: uh what about a project manager: we have to we have to we have to to move forward . so let 's skip to uh this uh this this this idea . yeah . user interface: okay , so project manager: so we have this . user interface: so project manager: we have a a basis um , how do you call it ? industrial designer: the base station . project manager: a base station . industrial designer: right . project manager: we 'll have a base station extra uh on the side . user interface: okay , so i guess we need , you know , something that can fit a banana shaped object . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: uh , we have a r_f_ for um for beeping for beeping . industrial designer: that 's right , yeah , we need that , yeah . project manager: we need b r_f_ to beep . user interface: okay , so it 's uh project manager: so we that means we need a button on th on the on the basis . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: basis station . project manager: basis station , thank you . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: alright , so we need uh okay . project manager: can you go quickly please ? user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . so we are going to add uh also um you as you suggested the whee some wheels to control the volumes and channels and your tur turbo turbo uh button . user interface: yeah . yeah , which i think it 's it 's probably best actually on the on the underneath of the the device , industrial designer: turbo button . project manager: yeah , on the th yeah , maybe here . user interface: so you have project manager: and the and the wheel a a at the level of the thumb for instance . user interface: yes . yeah , so you have the thumb kind of here . project manager: and and you have two wheels . user interface: so yeah , you need one one here and one on on the other side , so you got volume an and channel . project manager: okay right . good . so no lcd . user interface: and , uh no lcd . project manager: okay great . um . very good . user interface: oh we need a we need a power um on off switch as well . industrial designer: okay . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: uh for the remote ? user interface: yeah . project manager: oh , just the switch , industrial designer: remotes do n't have power on off switch . project manager: no f not for the tv for the tv . uh so you user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . s no , that 'll be controlled by the those buttons 'll be there already , yeah . marketing: what a user interface: where ? industrial designer: means on the remote . project manager: on the side . user interface: okay . industrial designer: because remote is going to have both the interfaces , scroll as well as buttons . they are not going to cost you much , everything is in-house and now you do n't want the traditional users to be apprehensive of this . user interface: well , i dunno if the traditional user is gon na buy a a banana remote in the first place , you know . industrial designer: oh , yeah . that 's that 's another issue which i did n't think of . user interface: y i mean you need to kind of keep it um industrial designer: but you know our targets are very high , means fifty million euros is the profit which we want make . marketing: what about user interface: yeah , how many of these did we wan na sell ? i ca n't remember , industrial designer: twenty five . project manager: twenty five . industrial designer: twelve point five is the profit on one . marketing: user interface: yeah , but how many units did we need to to sell ? industrial designer: uh forty th four . point point four million ? marketing: four millions ? user interface: four point four million . industrial designer: point four million . user interface: that 's a lot of fruit . industrial designer: in the market . user interface: marketing: what about a project manager: yeah . so . well . no . time is running , we have to close the meeting in a few minutes . user interface: okay . project manager: so , okay , the next step , you can come back to your seat . user interface: okay . project manager: the next step is to go for to f is to go to uh to building a prototype , based on this , okay ? user interface: okay . project manager: so next meeting you guys have to prepare the followi things . you have to uh work on the look and feel uh design and you have to work on the user interface , in fact you two you have to work together to model the first uh f first prototype . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: uh marketing expert uh have to go to product evaluation . user interface: project manager: okay ? marketing: i wo what about adding the this word spotting , keyword spotting recognition saying volume up volume down ? project manager: it 's too difficult . marketing: it 's too difficult but people like innovation and that 's really uh innovative and i do n't know if it would cost a lot , just a few five words . project manager: it 's not a possi it will not be possible to implement it for the next prototype , so t it 's in the next prototype so let 's skip it . user interface: uh . marketing: okay . industrial designer: for the future prototypes . project manager: yeah , maybe , for the n if if if it it works well , we 'll go for uh an orange one . user interface: that can be the t that can be like the turbo banana plus plus commando . industrial designer: project manager: yeah yeah , honour the fruit . marketing: plus plus , okay . maybe objective banana ? project manager: okay . user interface: project manager: thanks very much . we 'll see n next meeting . bye . user interface: okay . industrial designer: so meeting 's over ? user interface: yep . we have to go design the prototype . industrial designer: okay . okay . okay . thank you . project manager: thank you . marketing: thank you . industrial designer: the problem is after all this meeting there is { gap }

marketing suggested the group to focus on a fancy look and feel more than the functionality of the remote design . group mates asked if they would have a remote control in the shape of a banana . marketing said they should not be attached to the trend because the trend next year would be different . so , marketing suggested focusing on a young user group and designing a handy and cool remote .

what did group mates think of a cool fruit when discussing the preference of users ? </s> project manager: okay ? good afternoon . hope you have good lunch . user interface: hi . industrial designer: afternoon . yeah , we had falafel . project manager: oh . nice . and you ? user interface: uh , yes , i had something similar but non-vegetarian . project manager: okay . so today is um our third meeting . it will be about the conceptual design uh . if i come back to uh the minutes of the last meetings um . we decided not to go for speech recognition technologies because of some reasons and we are not decided about u the use of lcd screen on on the remote control because of costs . so maybe we cou wi will be able to clarify this this question to today . uh at the end of the meeting we should take decision on that point . so i hope uh that your respective pr presentations uh will help us . so each of you have some presentatio presentation to perform um who starts ? marketing: okay , . project manager: so marketing . marketing: industrial designer: project manager: so you are you saved your y your presentation somewhere ? marketing: yep . project manager: so you 're four ? marketing: four , yeah . project manager: which is trend watch . okay . mr marketing experts . marketing: yeah that 's me . project manager: so marketing: uh . well i investigate the preference more d i investigate deeper the preference of the users . uh so the the current investigation th uh th uh sorry the current the n current trends ? user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah ? okay . okay . well wha what i found um can you project manager: next slide ? yeah . marketing: yeah . thank you . what i found in order of importance from less to more important is that people want an easy to use device . after they they want something new technologic technologically speaking , but the most what they what they find more more interesting , more or more important it 's uh a fancy look and feel instead of uh instead of the current the current trend which was f the functional look and feel . industrial designer: marketing: so now more more cool aspect , ma more a cooler aspect uh rather than a device with many functions and many buttons with instead of i instead of ha of a device which can do many things , a device which is pleasant to to watch , to see . project manager: okay . marketing: uh also well in in euro in in paris and and milan the user interface: industrial designer: marketing: in paris and in paris and milan the the current trend of uh of clothes , furniture and all this all this fashion it 's it 's fruit and the the the theme is fruit and vegetables . user interface: project manager: mm . marketing: and also in the in the u_s_a_ the the current the mor the most popular feeling it 's it 's a spongy . spongy means eponge ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so maybe we should we should think in in this direction , so user interface: what what do you mean by fruit and vegetables and spongy ? marketing: user interface: what you mean clothe industrial designer: spongy means it it 's like sp marketing: fruit vegetables is the the new have you seen the last exposition of clothes in milan ? user interface: no , i missed that one . marketing: yeah , i i did n't miss an project manager: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: i did n't miss and i saw that the fruit , there are many fr pictures of fruits and vegetables in the clothes . user interface: oh , they 're okay so they 're not like dressed as a carrot they just have like pictures of fruit on , okay . marketing: no no , not not yet , not yet . project manager: marketing: yeah , yeah . user interface: so we 're not gon na have a remote control in the shape of of a banana , marketing: so te textu textures , yeah . user interface: just maybe marketing: yeah . user interface: marketing: vegetable textures and all this kind . project manager: drawings of bananas . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: uh user interface: okay and project manager: uh-huh . marketing: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: but what 's your suggestion how we can have some shape like that on the remote ? project manager: well so this is in the next slide certainly . marketing: uh no no , it 's not . project manager: it 's not ? user interface: marketing: it 's user interface: so which fruit are you thinking of ? marketing: and um . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: i ha i have n't thought of any particular fruit , but the general aspect of the of the remote control may may could remind some kind of vegetable , some kind of instead of vegetable , some natur mm uh natural object or something . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: but yeah it it depends on the project manager: so maybe you maybe you can display a banana on the lcd . user interface: oh , so you want the remote control to be the shape of a fruit , project manager: user interface: or you want just some kind of like fruit logo on the industrial designer: means buttons are in the shape of fruits , marketing: yeah maybe the shape the shape industrial designer: buttons are in the frape shape of fruits or something , apple , banana , something like that . marketing: no , not n not not too much focus , not too much focu not n not too s not too similar to a fruit because next year the ten the trend the trend will be different . project manager: apple for channel one . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: so we should n't be at re really attached to to the trend user interface: so something that looks half like a fruit and half like an elephant . marketing: but for instance , yeah . african or as an elephant ? industrial designer: that we can discuss afterwards . project manager: okay . user interface: but okay , marketing: user interface: i 'm not , i 'm not really sure if uh that would really appeal to everyone though , maybe just to fashion gurus , like maybe just like a little bit n a little fruit picture somewhere in the corner , but i do n't know about uh i dunno how ergonomic a , an orange is . marketing: well ma maybe we we should further specify what target are we focusing . i think in my opinion we should focus on on young people because they are more open to new devi new devices user interface: to fruit ? marketing: and also yeah according to the marketing report ninety p ninety five percent of young people was was was able to to buy a a n a cooler remote control . user interface: but is it uh is fruit cool ? marketing: what ? project manager: that 's a question . marketing: what ? user interface: is fruit cool ? marketing: yeah ? uh is the new trend of the user interface: well i guess , you know , apple has the ipod so , imagi marketing: user interface: just 'cause they have an apple on their on their product , does n't mean fruit is cool . marketing: no i think we we should think about a a shape with it a device with a shape of some user interface: okay , but it has to be easy to uh to use though and to hold you know , you do n't wan na pear or a watermelon . marketing: yeah . don do n't you think we can find uh the shape of a fruit which is handy to use ? user interface: well , probably the only thing is a banana that i can think of , industrial designer: banana . user interface: a cucumber . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: maybe too long . user interface: i dunno . marketing: or m user interface: maybe . too green . marketing: maybe . project manager: user interface: so , but i mean you also have to you have to also have , fit r all the buttons and you know . project manager: a banana . marketing: um user interface: it 's , it marketing: yeah . user interface: the thing is you have t normally with um with buttons , they have to be at some point attached to a circuit board so if you 're gon na have things like on a cylindrical kind of device it may be difficult to kind of to build . project manager: industrial designer: i do n't th it will be rolling a lot . marketing: yeah but i li i like your idea that we should n't have a lot of buttons b buttons so project manager: okay . yeah and you you you will not have pla enough a lot of place to put a lcd on a banana also . user interface: yeah . marketing: uh do you want a an lcd with twenty five euros ? project manager: well , you 're the marketing expert you should tell us if it is too much or not . user interface: well , this is marketing: i think well , according to the to the report people are more interested in in a fa fancy look and feel and in a technological inno in innovation , project manager: marketing: so , i will give more importance to the look and feel than rather than the project manager: so so you you you suggest to go f marketing: new inputs and also it 's i 'm not convinced about this lcd because you need uh internet connection , you need more things , it 's not just buying a new control re remote , you need buying control remote , buying uh project manager: okay . s so you 're simply marketing: more things . it 's not so simple . project manager: you 're simply looking s to a remote control that looks like a banana with few buttons with only a few buttons . marketing: for instance , yeah . yeah for for for given an an example yeah . project manager: okay good . so maybe you can go ahead ? marketing: yeah no , it 's what i already said . project manager: okay . thanks . um . okay , i 'll give the floor . so you are user interface guy . so you 're three ? user interface: okay . yeah . project manager: and it 's this one . user interface: yep . project manager: go for it . user interface: yep . okay . so . s next uh slide . okay . so i received an email um around lunchtime letting me know that the brilliant minds at our technology division had developed an integrated programmable sample sensor sample speaker unit , um which is a way for you to have a conversation with your coffee machine and or remote control . industrial designer: but it 's just a speaker right ? user interface: it 's no , what it is , it 's it 's very industrial designer: it 's not a microphone . user interface: it has a has a microphone , has a speaker , it 's got a little chip and it allows you t industrial designer: mm-hmm . actually i 'm not reading microphone there , so that 's why you can all have conversation , it just to speak to you . user interface: well , it 's a sample sensor sample speaker . sample sensor sample speaker . it means that it can recognize , it can do like a match on a on a certain phrase that you speak and then can play back a phrase in response to that . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: but uh there 's no kind of um understanding of the phrase . so , i mean , you know , industrial designer: okay . user interface: i guess you could build that in , you could you could link the the recognition of a certain phrase to some function on on the remote control . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: but basically the thing is , we have this technology available industrial designer: in-house . user interface: in-house . so , um industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: but the thing is obviously there 's still gon na be a cost if you decided to integrate that because you still have to pay for the c production of the components , industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: so um it it but it basically means we c we can kind of consider this from uh you know uh a theoretical or usability kind of viewpoint without worrying too much about you know how to develop it because we have this already done . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: whilst you know , some people might get annoyed if we uh if we just dump it , project manager: i there 's something that i unclear really understanding . is this a technology that recognize keywords speech keywords ? user interface: it 's it it 's no , well , it 's it 'll recognize uh i guess keywords , but you know keywords in a certain order like a phrase . you train it for a certain uh , for a certain phrase , you say the the example they said that they have uh up and running with their prototype is um well they 've actually integrated into the into the the coffee machine that uh that we 're producing is , you can say good morning to the coffee machine and it can recognize that phrase and it 'll playback good morning , how would you like your coffee ? project manager: and it 's just to , it 's just to playback something ? user interface: yeah . so actually that was a bad example , 'cause it does n't actually ask how do you want your coffee because it ca n't really understand the response , so . project manager: yeah yeah . so this is not s really to do to to do control . user interface: only , like , only in the sense that it it can recognize a set a set target kind of word an project manager: yeah . this is just more like a poi pois yeah . user interface: it 's designed it 's designed as a fun kind of thing , project manager: yeah yeah . user interface: but i guess you could use it as uh as a way to implement uh project manager: so it it 's c uh it it marketing: yeah but you can u project manager: it is a uh uh easy uh a fancy thing that you you can bring to we can bring to the remote control that will not have any uh user interface: completely pointless yeah . project manager: yeah comp completely pointless for the inter for from the interaction point of v point of view . user interface: yeah . yeah , unless you know , you like having conversation with your remote control . project manager: okay . user interface: marketing: yeah but the can we use it for saying okay , channel fifty , channel twenty ? user interface: well yeah , that 's the thing , if you can but you have to pro though i think it 's a fairly simple design so you would have to record into the device every possible combination , you have to s tr train it to l to learn channel fifteen , that whole thing , not just the word channel and the word fifteen , it does n't have that kind of logic in it . project manager: yeah yeah . so this is so this is this is much more than tak taking this technology , bringing it to the remote control and using it . user interface: so industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , that would be some development work . project manager: so this is out of discussion . so if if if it is something that you can we can bring easily and to put it into the banana remote control user interface: yeah . marketing: m mando . user interface: banana-mando . project manager: no this is mm banana-bando , yeah . user interface: banana-man marketing: banana-mando yeah . project manager: uh then it could be cool yeah . marketing: project manager: user interface: industrial designer: yeah okay , let 's go ahead . project manager: okay . user interface: i uh i i i do n't think it 's worth it though , i think it does n't really add much to the functional design and it 's it 's it 's not mature enough to use as a speech recognition engine , so project manager: okay . user interface: um , yeah . so if we can just move on to the next slide , i 've just done a quick mock-up of uh uh some of the features of our potential funky-looking uh remote control marketing: project manager: it does n't look like a banana at all . user interface: well , you see , i was i was unaware at this point of th of the fruit focus , project manager: yeah . user interface: um , so at the moment it 's more of a box focus . project manager: but you you can fit i you 're saying now you can fit it to marketing: looks like a tr look likes a a tro a tropical fruit . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , well , this is actu this could be a genetically engineered fruit that 's designed to be you know square so that it packs tighter in the boxes . marketing: yeah . user interface: but um , i 've just indicated here , we could have actually two scroll wheels , 'cause i think the scroll wheel is a fairly um key part of , you know , industrial designer: stable thing , that 's right . to have , user interface: i think everyone has has agreed that it 's that it could be quite a useful um thing , so . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: but i think it 's important , you know , to have two scroll wheels because , you know , you want one for for the channel , but you also want one for for the volume , project manager: mm . user interface: because it 's it 's the volume i it 's , you know it 's very handy for it to have uh instant kind of uh feedback uh and response , so . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: but um , i 've also included this turbo button because i think , you know , every design should have a turbo button , and well marketing: what 's a turbo button ? user interface: so this is you know , a unique problem with with televisions is that if you have this scro this scroll wheel for the television , the uh the tuner on the tv is not gon na be able to to switch between stations as fast as you can scroll , so you know , the th the person might want to have a uh might want to be able to scroll past television stations without seeing what 's on them , in which case it just waits until you stop scrolling and then , you know , displays that station . or they might want to scroll and and have a quick glimpse of it , even if it lags behind what they 're doing . marketing: it con it controls the speed ? user interface: yeah , so with this turbo button you can , say , skip over t channels if uh , you know , if i 'm if i 'm going if i 'm scrolling past them and you know , it 's um , you could have a little red light that comes up when they press it so they feel you know it 's really going fast or whatever . project manager: user interface: so yeah , that 's um , those are the two important uh features i think we need on the remote , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: but i mean we can discuss about what other kind of buttons we need , um . you know , i it could be , you know , if we if we wan na have like a very cheap kind of device , i mean , we could either consider that maybe we want to sell this as a very , if it 's gon na be a banana , you know that 's a pretty gimmicky kind of thing that does n't have that much functionality , it 's just you know a couple of scroll wheels and a button cause it 's hard to get so many buttons on a banana project manager: it 's enough . user interface: and it 's still very it may even be for most for some people more functional than their current remote , but if they have these scroll wheels , so , um you know , what other buttons do we want ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: i mean we could have well , i guess you need an on and off switch , project manager: switch on . yeah . user interface: but you could you could o you could turn it turn it on by taking the top off the banana maybe , you know , it 's kind of like a spy kind of flick thing . marketing: yeah . so sounds crazy . i like crazy ideas . user interface: that 's why you 're a marketing guru . industrial designer: project manager: okay . marketing: yeah , of course . project manager: so i it looks like we 're going completely to forget about the lcd thing . user interface: well , that 's the thing , as have we decided that we can only spend , uh , twenty five euro ? project manager: i think that user interface: well not spend , but you know , charge twenty five euro . marketing: i i think we could use somehow the s coffee machine dialogue interface or so . project manager: no we can we ca n't use that . marketing: you we can ? we ca n't . project manager: we ca n't use that to to comman co communicate , industrial designer: communicate . project manager: it 's just a thing marketing: yeah , but we can say channel twenty five . industrial designer: it 's one way . project manager: no . marketing: no ? user interface: but then you have to have a template for every channel , for a hundred channels , you have to be able to to recognize industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: it 's not a lot one hundred templates , user interface: mm . well , i f i think it 's probably more than , than our can handle because it 's designed for a coffee machine , you know , to say hello in the morning . marketing: it 's not project manager: yeah . marketing: ah , it 's designed for a cof okay . is it design for a coffee machine ? user interface: well that 's its current application , i would presume that it 's kind of , they would n't design it to handle a hundred things th so . marketing: okay . yeah . maybe you could ask your the you could ask the engineering department if we can project manager: yeah . a good good good thing . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: you want to g to move to your slides ? user interface: but uh industrial designer: yeah , that 's right , yeah . project manager: you 're finished ? user interface: well i just i just made the point , i do n't i do n't know if that speech recognition is , you know , even if we can do it , i think it 's not really appropriate for uh television environment . project manager: yeah i think so . user interface: but um i did have one thing from a previous meeting , you were talking about um being able to find the remote control marketing: yeah . user interface: and i was talking about extendin being able to extend the remote control by having you know , a base station that can control other things as well . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: it might be useful to have some kind of base station , even if it 's just you press on a button on it and uh and the remote control starts beeping , you know , this is a way of finding the remote . project manager: mm . user interface: y in that case maybe the maybe the speech recognition the speech thing could be useful just to say i 'm here project manager: exactly yeah . user interface: but uh it 's probably a bit of overkill if you could just have a a beeping industrial designer: so it 's a speech synthesis kind of thing , user interface: it 's speech industrial designer: something has been uh stored and it 's just uh spoken out . user interface: it 's it 's speech synthesis and s it 's speech kind of , not really speech recognition , but kind of pattern matching , yeah industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: oh , good idea . industrial designer: yeah . that 's right . project manager: very good . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , let 's move on . so you 're two ? industrial designer: that 's right . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so this is going to be about the component design . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so first thing is we need power source for the remote control . so i was of the idea that we can have two kind of power supplies , one is the usual batteries which are there , they could be chargeable batteries if there 's a basis station kind of thing and on top of that we can have solar cells , when the lighting conditions are good they can be used so it 'll be pretty uh innovative kind . then uh we need plastic with some elasticity so that if your if the remote control falls it 's not broken directly into pieces , there should be some flexibility in t user interface: i guess that fits in with the spongy kind of design philosophy . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . so there should we should think of something like that and then it should be double curve . the s science for the ease of handling and there are some other issues why we need double curve . then controls for the traditionals u traditional users we can have the push buttons so that they do n't feel that it 's an alien thing for them . user interface: so , just one second , when you say double curve , what do you actually mean ? you reckon you could like draw us a thing on the , on the whiteboard 'cause i 'm not sure industrial designer: double curve is , you have curves on both the sides if i 'm right . so it 's symmetrical kind of thing , whatever it is . user interface: okay , but like , kind of convex or concave ? industrial designer: so , it could be curve , so it could be convex , conve concave , depending on what what we want . project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: user interface: okay . industrial designer: so there are flats , there are single curve and there are double curves . user interface: okay . industrial designer: these are the three things , and there are different materials , with plastic you can have double curve but with uh certain other materials we can not have double curve . so there there was uh there were many other materials like wood , titanium and all those things , but plastic is i think is the most appropriate one , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: it 'll bring the cost down user interface: although , you know , wood could be uh quite a stylish uh option , industrial designer: and anyway it 's user interface: if you take like , nice quality kind of wood that 's got a nice grain and you kind of put some , some varnish on . project manager: mm but i but there is no elasticity which could be industrial designer: wooden cases user interface: well it depends , i mean , you have the outs the wood itself is not gon na break so you do n't have to worry too much about the case being broken , project manager: yeah but the components inside . user interface: it 's the inside . yeah but inside you know you could have you can still have some kind of cushioning that 's not visible to the to the user . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: very too expensive to do . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . project manager: and also uh user interface: and i mean you could also , you can have just a very thin veneer of wood as well . project manager: yeah but it 's more easier to do a banana in plastic than uh in wood . user interface: that 's true , but are we set on the banana idea ? industrial designer: project manager: well it look like marketing: actually project manager: it looks like you are all targeting that marketing: i was thinking that the user interface: project manager: yeah ? marketing: the shape of a banana is not it 's not really handy . project manager: yes it is . marketing: uh i do n't know the name o o in english uh this industrial designer: is it an e apple which has marketing: it 's not a fruit it 's a vegetable . user interface: it 's like a pumpkin or project manager: yeah ? pumpkin . marketing: green . project manager: green . user interface: green . project manager: um um um , yes i see . user interface: what does it taste like ? marketing: and you put in the salad . project manager: pep pepperoni . user interface: ah yeah , marketing: um user interface: is it what 's it in french ? project manager: poivron . marketing: oui c'est ca user interface: yeah , okay , so capsicum or pepper . yeah . project manager: uh pepper . marketing: pepper . project manager: but um they do d marketing: and it 's al it also suits with the double curve for easy of project manager: yeah . user interface: i do n't know , it seems a little bit kind of bulky to me , like project manager: yeah . marketing: no , i mean in a project manager: it 's not re it user interface: like with a banana you can have project manager: you you think it 's really fancy and fun ? you think that young people that are marketing: i 'm sure it 's fun . project manager: yeah . more than a banana ? marketing: but banana is not so handy , user interface: well industrial designer: banana is more handier as compared to this i think , and to capsicum . marketing: i think that 's handier . user interface: but like a banana you can you can be holding like this and have the scroll wheel kind of on top project manager: yeah . user interface: and just roll it back and forth like that , project manager: it 's kind it 's kind of it 's more uh user interface: but with uh i do n't know how you would hold a capsicum and project manager: it 's really ergonomic , it 's fit in the hand and you 've a lot of surface to to put the controls . marketing: user interface: project manager: okay let 's move on . marketing: yeah you 're right . project manager: so time is running , let 's move on . industrial designer: okay , so push buttons for the traditional users so that they do n't feel they are alienated , just and a scroll button with push technology for channel selection , volume control and teletext browsing . these are the three scroll buttons which are already available with us in the company and we we can go ahead with that . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , we can go to the next slide . then uh there are different kind of chips , one one is the basic chip and the regular chip and one an adva advanced chip . so we can have regular chip for control . pricing is a factor for us , that 's why we 'll go for the regular chip . and uh regular chip supports speaker support , so this functionality could be used for tracing the mobile phone which has been misplaced . user interface: so is that , when you say speaker support , you mean it just has some output pinned which which which kind of industrial designer: it could be a beep kind of thing . user interface: okay , but the speaker is actually attached to the to the chip in some way , or is just the the signal ? industrial designer: yes , yes , that 's right , it 's it 's onto the chip , user interface: okay . industrial designer: most most probably , not not hundred per cent sure about that . user interface: okay . so are there any issues where we place this this chip to make sure you can actually hear the the speaker from the outside of the banana ? industrial designer: that will be the volume control i think which which a user shou it it should be already pre-defined . it should be whatever will be the case , the chip is always going to be sitting inside . user interface: okay . yeah , but the speaker , if the speaker is actually on the chip , then if it 's too far away from the the casing , or if the casing is too thick , then you may not hear the the speaker . industrial designer: mm-hmm . uh , so we can have it at one of the boundaries so that things are slightly better . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: as or as hearing is concerned , we can have some gap at some place , user interface: yeah . so that 's something we have to keep in mind with the actual physical design is to keep the the speaker close enough to the outside . industrial designer: so that that 's right . okay . yeah . so these these were the component selection and these things . we can go to the next slide . and uh these were the findings which i i saw with the web web , that user wants to have control more than one device wants to control more than one device from the same remote control , so our tv remote can have little extra things to support additional devices like v_c_r_ d_v_d_ players which are usually attached with the tv , because users are like this and they do n't want to have one remote control for everything , so with this additional little , we might be having slightly better market for us . user interface: although , if it depends , if we like , if we are concentrating on like a fruit design , then maybe maybe we wan na sell a collection of fruit , you know , like a different fruit for each device . industrial designer: mm . of fruits . user interface: cause that , you know , that sometimes people like to collect um you know things that of a similar type . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: s objects . industrial designer: remotes objects , okay . project manager: crazy objects . marketing: i think that would be funny at the beginning but after one month you will be tired of be surrounded of fruits . user interface: well , you 're the one who wanted to do fruit in the first place . marketing: no but i think just one fruit to control everything . user interface: like a power fruit . marketing: a power fr a power m a mando , a supermando fruit . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: and uh as well as i could see on the web the scroll button is becoming really uh hot thing s project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and we should have it on the remote . project manager: okay , good . user interface: well marketing: actually i i did n't understand very well this trace speaker lost control . industrial designer: so you 're having a basis station . okay . your usually your remote sits on that . so you and it 's that 's why it can have chargeable batteries . now let 's say marketing: so you you have to buy two things , the banana and the basis station . project manager: bu it 's it 's . industrial designer: basis station is with the thing . project manager: you s you you thing . industrial designer: it 's like a telephone handset is there and the basis station for the telephone hand set is there . so now what user gets additionally he does n't have to buy batteries , they 're rechargeable batteries , so over the period of cor time he 'll recover the cost . so you 're having the basis station and there is a button , if you press that button wherever the remote it 'll start beeping so you know where the remote is . uh user interface: i think that 's a pretty handy feature . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: i think it 's kind of people would find that worth it even if it was n't uh a recharging station , even if they did n't have to buy extra batteries , you know . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm , mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: so marketing: yeah but i 'm a bit worried about the budget . industrial designer: uh this is basis station is nothing more , just it 's a wire which is coming from the main cable and uh you 're having one socket on which the thing sits . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: although you do need to include r_f_ kind of circuitry in the remote . industrial designer: that 's right . but all these things are usually in-house so we do n't have much problems . project manager: industrial designer: so component cost is going to be the least . anyway , we are not using really advanced technology , lcd has already been ruled out , a_s_r_ has been ruled out . so it 's the basic thing but very trendy and very user-friendly . user interface: okay . i 'm just wondering actually , 'cause , you know , i this whole fruit thing with the banana , it 's um it seemed like it first seems a bit kind of uh niche , like only a few people would really want a banana , industrial designer: and user interface: but what if it was kind of uh a stylised banana ? you know , rather than having it kind of you know yellow and really looking exactly like a banana , you could make it kind of silver . and um , you know to give you kind of the idea of a banana but without it looking you know completely kitsch . for better want of a better word project manager: you think that yellow it 's kitsch . user interface: you know ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: well , you know , i don i do n't know how many peop industrial designer: marketing: project manager: if you make something that looks like a banana it should have the colour of a banana . marketing: yeah . no , i i industrial designer: a yeah , otherwise it 'll be mis means you do n't get b any feeling then . user interface: well they project manager: o otherwise marketing: maybe li like that . industrial designer: it 's neither a banana nor a user interface: yeah , like this colour this colour maybe , you know , maybe like still in the shape of a banana . project manager: roughly . user interface: no , exactly . project manager: marketing: user interface: exactly . um , but you know , just maybe maybe not exactly the same texture as a banana and just kind of , you know because the thing is it 's gon na be a little bit difficult to make um to give like the texture of a banana anyway and to k to have the exact shape . i think if you 're gon na not be able to do it properly you may as well do it in a stylised way that just looks a bit more kind of , you know , twenty first century rather than sixties or seventies . project manager: yeah . okay . let 's move on . industrial designer: and uh going to the last slide . project manager: uh uh yeah . before before st before ending the meeting i 'd like to to draw some sketch about the pro future prot prototype . user interface: okay . project manager: go for it . industrial designer: okay . project manager: well no , not not you , you can finish your slides before industrial designer: okay . okay , so . anyway , users 'll be so the findings is users 'll be very interested in our locator device to find their misplaced remotes . project manager: mm okay . industrial designer: so that was very i thought it 's a very good suggestion by everybody . project manager: okay . industrial designer: that 's it . project manager: that 's all ? industrial designer: yep . project manager: okay , so mm so well done for the presentations . so we need to take some de decisions about um about what we 're going to do . user interface: project manager: so i i propose that you go to the whiteboard user interface: yeah . project manager: and we 're going to report all the ideas we had we had during this these presentations just to draw some sketch about what will be the prod final product user interface: okay . project manager: and uh where superman go banana and uh user interface: project manager: uh extra func functionalities such as wheels , um the speaker unit um well not in order not to lost the um the device , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: i do i do n't remember you call it ? industrial designer: that 's right . the basis station . that 's right . project manager: basis station , yeah . uh so um so we 're going for a stylish banana shape . user interface: yeah , so , i guess you wan na hold like the way the end of the banana you wan na kind of hold as ma you maybe wan na kinda hold like a gun rather than 'cause you do n't want it to point kind of towards the floor . project manager: yeah , right . user interface: so you know , so if you have like marketing: what about what about this shape ? more or less . project manager: we industrial designer: there 's less space on this to put with the buttons . project manager: i if it i if it has really the model shape of a bana you could marketing: yeah , but how many buttons do we need ? project manager: the the starting is good but it could it should have more the shape of a banana if you want to point really a at the thing . if you do n't want to to to do that movement which is which is difficult if you do n't have to do it in fact , it 's better . so ti time is running , industrial designer: uh what about a project manager: we have to we have to we have to to move forward . so let 's skip to uh this uh this this this idea . yeah . user interface: okay , so project manager: so we have this . user interface: so project manager: we have a a basis um , how do you call it ? industrial designer: the base station . project manager: a base station . industrial designer: right . project manager: we 'll have a base station extra uh on the side . user interface: okay , so i guess we need , you know , something that can fit a banana shaped object . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: uh , we have a r_f_ for um for beeping for beeping . industrial designer: that 's right , yeah , we need that , yeah . project manager: we need b r_f_ to beep . user interface: okay , so it 's uh project manager: so we that means we need a button on th on the on the basis . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: basis station . project manager: basis station , thank you . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: alright , so we need uh okay . project manager: can you go quickly please ? user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . so we are going to add uh also um you as you suggested the whee some wheels to control the volumes and channels and your tur turbo turbo uh button . user interface: yeah . yeah , which i think it 's it 's probably best actually on the on the underneath of the the device , industrial designer: turbo button . project manager: yeah , on the th yeah , maybe here . user interface: so you have project manager: and the and the wheel a a at the level of the thumb for instance . user interface: yes . yeah , so you have the thumb kind of here . project manager: and and you have two wheels . user interface: so yeah , you need one one here and one on on the other side , so you got volume an and channel . project manager: okay right . good . so no lcd . user interface: and , uh no lcd . project manager: okay great . um . very good . user interface: oh we need a we need a power um on off switch as well . industrial designer: okay . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: uh for the remote ? user interface: yeah . project manager: oh , just the switch , industrial designer: remotes do n't have power on off switch . project manager: no f not for the tv for the tv . uh so you user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . s no , that 'll be controlled by the those buttons 'll be there already , yeah . marketing: what a user interface: where ? industrial designer: means on the remote . project manager: on the side . user interface: okay . industrial designer: because remote is going to have both the interfaces , scroll as well as buttons . they are not going to cost you much , everything is in-house and now you do n't want the traditional users to be apprehensive of this . user interface: well , i dunno if the traditional user is gon na buy a a banana remote in the first place , you know . industrial designer: oh , yeah . that 's that 's another issue which i did n't think of . user interface: y i mean you need to kind of keep it um industrial designer: but you know our targets are very high , means fifty million euros is the profit which we want make . marketing: what about user interface: yeah , how many of these did we wan na sell ? i ca n't remember , industrial designer: twenty five . project manager: twenty five . industrial designer: twelve point five is the profit on one . marketing: user interface: yeah , but how many units did we need to to sell ? industrial designer: uh forty th four . point point four million ? marketing: four millions ? user interface: four point four million . industrial designer: point four million . user interface: that 's a lot of fruit . industrial designer: in the market . user interface: marketing: what about a project manager: yeah . so . well . no . time is running , we have to close the meeting in a few minutes . user interface: okay . project manager: so , okay , the next step , you can come back to your seat . user interface: okay . project manager: the next step is to go for to f is to go to uh to building a prototype , based on this , okay ? user interface: okay . project manager: so next meeting you guys have to prepare the followi things . you have to uh work on the look and feel uh design and you have to work on the user interface , in fact you two you have to work together to model the first uh f first prototype . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: uh marketing expert uh have to go to product evaluation . user interface: project manager: okay ? marketing: i wo what about adding the this word spotting , keyword spotting recognition saying volume up volume down ? project manager: it 's too difficult . marketing: it 's too difficult but people like innovation and that 's really uh innovative and i do n't know if it would cost a lot , just a few five words . project manager: it 's not a possi it will not be possible to implement it for the next prototype , so t it 's in the next prototype so let 's skip it . user interface: uh . marketing: okay . industrial designer: for the future prototypes . project manager: yeah , maybe , for the n if if if it it works well , we 'll go for uh an orange one . user interface: that can be the t that can be like the turbo banana plus plus commando . industrial designer: project manager: yeah yeah , honour the fruit . marketing: plus plus , okay . maybe objective banana ? project manager: okay . user interface: project manager: thanks very much . we 'll see n next meeting . bye . user interface: okay . industrial designer: so meeting 's over ? user interface: yep . we have to go design the prototype . industrial designer: okay . okay . okay . thank you . project manager: thank you . marketing: thank you . industrial designer: the problem is after all this meeting there is { gap }

marketing suggested that the group should focus on young people because they are more open to new devices . and marketing mentioned that 95 % of young people were able to buy a cooler remote control . user interface asked if the fruit was cool . marketing suggested they should think about the product in a cool shape . nevertheless , user interface suggested an easy-to-use shape . so the group recommended some fruit . lastly , user interface mentioned that they needed to have all the buttons with the device .

what did project manager think of the technology that could recognize speech keywords when discussing the sample sensor speaker ? </s> project manager: okay ? good afternoon . hope you have good lunch . user interface: hi . industrial designer: afternoon . yeah , we had falafel . project manager: oh . nice . and you ? user interface: uh , yes , i had something similar but non-vegetarian . project manager: okay . so today is um our third meeting . it will be about the conceptual design uh . if i come back to uh the minutes of the last meetings um . we decided not to go for speech recognition technologies because of some reasons and we are not decided about u the use of lcd screen on on the remote control because of costs . so maybe we cou wi will be able to clarify this this question to today . uh at the end of the meeting we should take decision on that point . so i hope uh that your respective pr presentations uh will help us . so each of you have some presentatio presentation to perform um who starts ? marketing: okay , . project manager: so marketing . marketing: industrial designer: project manager: so you are you saved your y your presentation somewhere ? marketing: yep . project manager: so you 're four ? marketing: four , yeah . project manager: which is trend watch . okay . mr marketing experts . marketing: yeah that 's me . project manager: so marketing: uh . well i investigate the preference more d i investigate deeper the preference of the users . uh so the the current investigation th uh th uh sorry the current the n current trends ? user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah ? okay . okay . well wha what i found um can you project manager: next slide ? yeah . marketing: yeah . thank you . what i found in order of importance from less to more important is that people want an easy to use device . after they they want something new technologic technologically speaking , but the most what they what they find more more interesting , more or more important it 's uh a fancy look and feel instead of uh instead of the current the current trend which was f the functional look and feel . industrial designer: marketing: so now more more cool aspect , ma more a cooler aspect uh rather than a device with many functions and many buttons with instead of i instead of ha of a device which can do many things , a device which is pleasant to to watch , to see . project manager: okay . marketing: uh also well in in euro in in paris and and milan the user interface: industrial designer: marketing: in paris and in paris and milan the the current trend of uh of clothes , furniture and all this all this fashion it 's it 's fruit and the the the theme is fruit and vegetables . user interface: project manager: mm . marketing: and also in the in the u_s_a_ the the current the mor the most popular feeling it 's it 's a spongy . spongy means eponge ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so maybe we should we should think in in this direction , so user interface: what what do you mean by fruit and vegetables and spongy ? marketing: user interface: what you mean clothe industrial designer: spongy means it it 's like sp marketing: fruit vegetables is the the new have you seen the last exposition of clothes in milan ? user interface: no , i missed that one . marketing: yeah , i i did n't miss an project manager: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: i did n't miss and i saw that the fruit , there are many fr pictures of fruits and vegetables in the clothes . user interface: oh , they 're okay so they 're not like dressed as a carrot they just have like pictures of fruit on , okay . marketing: no no , not not yet , not yet . project manager: marketing: yeah , yeah . user interface: so we 're not gon na have a remote control in the shape of of a banana , marketing: so te textu textures , yeah . user interface: just maybe marketing: yeah . user interface: marketing: vegetable textures and all this kind . project manager: drawings of bananas . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: uh user interface: okay and project manager: uh-huh . marketing: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: but what 's your suggestion how we can have some shape like that on the remote ? project manager: well so this is in the next slide certainly . marketing: uh no no , it 's not . project manager: it 's not ? user interface: marketing: it 's user interface: so which fruit are you thinking of ? marketing: and um . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: i ha i have n't thought of any particular fruit , but the general aspect of the of the remote control may may could remind some kind of vegetable , some kind of instead of vegetable , some natur mm uh natural object or something . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: but yeah it it depends on the project manager: so maybe you maybe you can display a banana on the lcd . user interface: oh , so you want the remote control to be the shape of a fruit , project manager: user interface: or you want just some kind of like fruit logo on the industrial designer: means buttons are in the shape of fruits , marketing: yeah maybe the shape the shape industrial designer: buttons are in the frape shape of fruits or something , apple , banana , something like that . marketing: no , not n not not too much focus , not too much focu not n not too s not too similar to a fruit because next year the ten the trend the trend will be different . project manager: apple for channel one . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: so we should n't be at re really attached to to the trend user interface: so something that looks half like a fruit and half like an elephant . marketing: but for instance , yeah . african or as an elephant ? industrial designer: that we can discuss afterwards . project manager: okay . user interface: but okay , marketing: user interface: i 'm not , i 'm not really sure if uh that would really appeal to everyone though , maybe just to fashion gurus , like maybe just like a little bit n a little fruit picture somewhere in the corner , but i do n't know about uh i dunno how ergonomic a , an orange is . marketing: well ma maybe we we should further specify what target are we focusing . i think in my opinion we should focus on on young people because they are more open to new devi new devices user interface: to fruit ? marketing: and also yeah according to the marketing report ninety p ninety five percent of young people was was was able to to buy a a n a cooler remote control . user interface: but is it uh is fruit cool ? marketing: what ? project manager: that 's a question . marketing: what ? user interface: is fruit cool ? marketing: yeah ? uh is the new trend of the user interface: well i guess , you know , apple has the ipod so , imagi marketing: user interface: just 'cause they have an apple on their on their product , does n't mean fruit is cool . marketing: no i think we we should think about a a shape with it a device with a shape of some user interface: okay , but it has to be easy to uh to use though and to hold you know , you do n't wan na pear or a watermelon . marketing: yeah . don do n't you think we can find uh the shape of a fruit which is handy to use ? user interface: well , probably the only thing is a banana that i can think of , industrial designer: banana . user interface: a cucumber . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: maybe too long . user interface: i dunno . marketing: or m user interface: maybe . too green . marketing: maybe . project manager: user interface: so , but i mean you also have to you have to also have , fit r all the buttons and you know . project manager: a banana . marketing: um user interface: it 's , it marketing: yeah . user interface: the thing is you have t normally with um with buttons , they have to be at some point attached to a circuit board so if you 're gon na have things like on a cylindrical kind of device it may be difficult to kind of to build . project manager: industrial designer: i do n't th it will be rolling a lot . marketing: yeah but i li i like your idea that we should n't have a lot of buttons b buttons so project manager: okay . yeah and you you you will not have pla enough a lot of place to put a lcd on a banana also . user interface: yeah . marketing: uh do you want a an lcd with twenty five euros ? project manager: well , you 're the marketing expert you should tell us if it is too much or not . user interface: well , this is marketing: i think well , according to the to the report people are more interested in in a fa fancy look and feel and in a technological inno in innovation , project manager: marketing: so , i will give more importance to the look and feel than rather than the project manager: so so you you you suggest to go f marketing: new inputs and also it 's i 'm not convinced about this lcd because you need uh internet connection , you need more things , it 's not just buying a new control re remote , you need buying control remote , buying uh project manager: okay . s so you 're simply marketing: more things . it 's not so simple . project manager: you 're simply looking s to a remote control that looks like a banana with few buttons with only a few buttons . marketing: for instance , yeah . yeah for for for given an an example yeah . project manager: okay good . so maybe you can go ahead ? marketing: yeah no , it 's what i already said . project manager: okay . thanks . um . okay , i 'll give the floor . so you are user interface guy . so you 're three ? user interface: okay . yeah . project manager: and it 's this one . user interface: yep . project manager: go for it . user interface: yep . okay . so . s next uh slide . okay . so i received an email um around lunchtime letting me know that the brilliant minds at our technology division had developed an integrated programmable sample sensor sample speaker unit , um which is a way for you to have a conversation with your coffee machine and or remote control . industrial designer: but it 's just a speaker right ? user interface: it 's no , what it is , it 's it 's very industrial designer: it 's not a microphone . user interface: it has a has a microphone , has a speaker , it 's got a little chip and it allows you t industrial designer: mm-hmm . actually i 'm not reading microphone there , so that 's why you can all have conversation , it just to speak to you . user interface: well , it 's a sample sensor sample speaker . sample sensor sample speaker . it means that it can recognize , it can do like a match on a on a certain phrase that you speak and then can play back a phrase in response to that . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: but uh there 's no kind of um understanding of the phrase . so , i mean , you know , industrial designer: okay . user interface: i guess you could build that in , you could you could link the the recognition of a certain phrase to some function on on the remote control . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: but basically the thing is , we have this technology available industrial designer: in-house . user interface: in-house . so , um industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: but the thing is obviously there 's still gon na be a cost if you decided to integrate that because you still have to pay for the c production of the components , industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: so um it it but it basically means we c we can kind of consider this from uh you know uh a theoretical or usability kind of viewpoint without worrying too much about you know how to develop it because we have this already done . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: whilst you know , some people might get annoyed if we uh if we just dump it , project manager: i there 's something that i unclear really understanding . is this a technology that recognize keywords speech keywords ? user interface: it 's it it 's no , well , it 's it 'll recognize uh i guess keywords , but you know keywords in a certain order like a phrase . you train it for a certain uh , for a certain phrase , you say the the example they said that they have uh up and running with their prototype is um well they 've actually integrated into the into the the coffee machine that uh that we 're producing is , you can say good morning to the coffee machine and it can recognize that phrase and it 'll playback good morning , how would you like your coffee ? project manager: and it 's just to , it 's just to playback something ? user interface: yeah . so actually that was a bad example , 'cause it does n't actually ask how do you want your coffee because it ca n't really understand the response , so . project manager: yeah yeah . so this is not s really to do to to do control . user interface: only , like , only in the sense that it it can recognize a set a set target kind of word an project manager: yeah . this is just more like a poi pois yeah . user interface: it 's designed it 's designed as a fun kind of thing , project manager: yeah yeah . user interface: but i guess you could use it as uh as a way to implement uh project manager: so it it 's c uh it it marketing: yeah but you can u project manager: it is a uh uh easy uh a fancy thing that you you can bring to we can bring to the remote control that will not have any uh user interface: completely pointless yeah . project manager: yeah comp completely pointless for the inter for from the interaction point of v point of view . user interface: yeah . yeah , unless you know , you like having conversation with your remote control . project manager: okay . user interface: marketing: yeah but the can we use it for saying okay , channel fifty , channel twenty ? user interface: well yeah , that 's the thing , if you can but you have to pro though i think it 's a fairly simple design so you would have to record into the device every possible combination , you have to s tr train it to l to learn channel fifteen , that whole thing , not just the word channel and the word fifteen , it does n't have that kind of logic in it . project manager: yeah yeah . so this is so this is this is much more than tak taking this technology , bringing it to the remote control and using it . user interface: so industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , that would be some development work . project manager: so this is out of discussion . so if if if it is something that you can we can bring easily and to put it into the banana remote control user interface: yeah . marketing: m mando . user interface: banana-mando . project manager: no this is mm banana-bando , yeah . user interface: banana-man marketing: banana-mando yeah . project manager: uh then it could be cool yeah . marketing: project manager: user interface: industrial designer: yeah okay , let 's go ahead . project manager: okay . user interface: i uh i i i do n't think it 's worth it though , i think it does n't really add much to the functional design and it 's it 's it 's not mature enough to use as a speech recognition engine , so project manager: okay . user interface: um , yeah . so if we can just move on to the next slide , i 've just done a quick mock-up of uh uh some of the features of our potential funky-looking uh remote control marketing: project manager: it does n't look like a banana at all . user interface: well , you see , i was i was unaware at this point of th of the fruit focus , project manager: yeah . user interface: um , so at the moment it 's more of a box focus . project manager: but you you can fit i you 're saying now you can fit it to marketing: looks like a tr look likes a a tro a tropical fruit . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , well , this is actu this could be a genetically engineered fruit that 's designed to be you know square so that it packs tighter in the boxes . marketing: yeah . user interface: but um , i 've just indicated here , we could have actually two scroll wheels , 'cause i think the scroll wheel is a fairly um key part of , you know , industrial designer: stable thing , that 's right . to have , user interface: i think everyone has has agreed that it 's that it could be quite a useful um thing , so . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: but i think it 's important , you know , to have two scroll wheels because , you know , you want one for for the channel , but you also want one for for the volume , project manager: mm . user interface: because it 's it 's the volume i it 's , you know it 's very handy for it to have uh instant kind of uh feedback uh and response , so . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: but um , i 've also included this turbo button because i think , you know , every design should have a turbo button , and well marketing: what 's a turbo button ? user interface: so this is you know , a unique problem with with televisions is that if you have this scro this scroll wheel for the television , the uh the tuner on the tv is not gon na be able to to switch between stations as fast as you can scroll , so you know , the th the person might want to have a uh might want to be able to scroll past television stations without seeing what 's on them , in which case it just waits until you stop scrolling and then , you know , displays that station . or they might want to scroll and and have a quick glimpse of it , even if it lags behind what they 're doing . marketing: it con it controls the speed ? user interface: yeah , so with this turbo button you can , say , skip over t channels if uh , you know , if i 'm if i 'm going if i 'm scrolling past them and you know , it 's um , you could have a little red light that comes up when they press it so they feel you know it 's really going fast or whatever . project manager: user interface: so yeah , that 's um , those are the two important uh features i think we need on the remote , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: but i mean we can discuss about what other kind of buttons we need , um . you know , i it could be , you know , if we if we wan na have like a very cheap kind of device , i mean , we could either consider that maybe we want to sell this as a very , if it 's gon na be a banana , you know that 's a pretty gimmicky kind of thing that does n't have that much functionality , it 's just you know a couple of scroll wheels and a button cause it 's hard to get so many buttons on a banana project manager: it 's enough . user interface: and it 's still very it may even be for most for some people more functional than their current remote , but if they have these scroll wheels , so , um you know , what other buttons do we want ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: i mean we could have well , i guess you need an on and off switch , project manager: switch on . yeah . user interface: but you could you could o you could turn it turn it on by taking the top off the banana maybe , you know , it 's kind of like a spy kind of flick thing . marketing: yeah . so sounds crazy . i like crazy ideas . user interface: that 's why you 're a marketing guru . industrial designer: project manager: okay . marketing: yeah , of course . project manager: so i it looks like we 're going completely to forget about the lcd thing . user interface: well , that 's the thing , as have we decided that we can only spend , uh , twenty five euro ? project manager: i think that user interface: well not spend , but you know , charge twenty five euro . marketing: i i think we could use somehow the s coffee machine dialogue interface or so . project manager: no we can we ca n't use that . marketing: you we can ? we ca n't . project manager: we ca n't use that to to comman co communicate , industrial designer: communicate . project manager: it 's just a thing marketing: yeah , but we can say channel twenty five . industrial designer: it 's one way . project manager: no . marketing: no ? user interface: but then you have to have a template for every channel , for a hundred channels , you have to be able to to recognize industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: it 's not a lot one hundred templates , user interface: mm . well , i f i think it 's probably more than , than our can handle because it 's designed for a coffee machine , you know , to say hello in the morning . marketing: it 's not project manager: yeah . marketing: ah , it 's designed for a cof okay . is it design for a coffee machine ? user interface: well that 's its current application , i would presume that it 's kind of , they would n't design it to handle a hundred things th so . marketing: okay . yeah . maybe you could ask your the you could ask the engineering department if we can project manager: yeah . a good good good thing . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: you want to g to move to your slides ? user interface: but uh industrial designer: yeah , that 's right , yeah . project manager: you 're finished ? user interface: well i just i just made the point , i do n't i do n't know if that speech recognition is , you know , even if we can do it , i think it 's not really appropriate for uh television environment . project manager: yeah i think so . user interface: but um i did have one thing from a previous meeting , you were talking about um being able to find the remote control marketing: yeah . user interface: and i was talking about extendin being able to extend the remote control by having you know , a base station that can control other things as well . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: it might be useful to have some kind of base station , even if it 's just you press on a button on it and uh and the remote control starts beeping , you know , this is a way of finding the remote . project manager: mm . user interface: y in that case maybe the maybe the speech recognition the speech thing could be useful just to say i 'm here project manager: exactly yeah . user interface: but uh it 's probably a bit of overkill if you could just have a a beeping industrial designer: so it 's a speech synthesis kind of thing , user interface: it 's speech industrial designer: something has been uh stored and it 's just uh spoken out . user interface: it 's it 's speech synthesis and s it 's speech kind of , not really speech recognition , but kind of pattern matching , yeah industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: oh , good idea . industrial designer: yeah . that 's right . project manager: very good . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , let 's move on . so you 're two ? industrial designer: that 's right . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so this is going to be about the component design . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so first thing is we need power source for the remote control . so i was of the idea that we can have two kind of power supplies , one is the usual batteries which are there , they could be chargeable batteries if there 's a basis station kind of thing and on top of that we can have solar cells , when the lighting conditions are good they can be used so it 'll be pretty uh innovative kind . then uh we need plastic with some elasticity so that if your if the remote control falls it 's not broken directly into pieces , there should be some flexibility in t user interface: i guess that fits in with the spongy kind of design philosophy . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . so there should we should think of something like that and then it should be double curve . the s science for the ease of handling and there are some other issues why we need double curve . then controls for the traditionals u traditional users we can have the push buttons so that they do n't feel that it 's an alien thing for them . user interface: so , just one second , when you say double curve , what do you actually mean ? you reckon you could like draw us a thing on the , on the whiteboard 'cause i 'm not sure industrial designer: double curve is , you have curves on both the sides if i 'm right . so it 's symmetrical kind of thing , whatever it is . user interface: okay , but like , kind of convex or concave ? industrial designer: so , it could be curve , so it could be convex , conve concave , depending on what what we want . project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: user interface: okay . industrial designer: so there are flats , there are single curve and there are double curves . user interface: okay . industrial designer: these are the three things , and there are different materials , with plastic you can have double curve but with uh certain other materials we can not have double curve . so there there was uh there were many other materials like wood , titanium and all those things , but plastic is i think is the most appropriate one , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: it 'll bring the cost down user interface: although , you know , wood could be uh quite a stylish uh option , industrial designer: and anyway it 's user interface: if you take like , nice quality kind of wood that 's got a nice grain and you kind of put some , some varnish on . project manager: mm but i but there is no elasticity which could be industrial designer: wooden cases user interface: well it depends , i mean , you have the outs the wood itself is not gon na break so you do n't have to worry too much about the case being broken , project manager: yeah but the components inside . user interface: it 's the inside . yeah but inside you know you could have you can still have some kind of cushioning that 's not visible to the to the user . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: very too expensive to do . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . project manager: and also uh user interface: and i mean you could also , you can have just a very thin veneer of wood as well . project manager: yeah but it 's more easier to do a banana in plastic than uh in wood . user interface: that 's true , but are we set on the banana idea ? industrial designer: project manager: well it look like marketing: actually project manager: it looks like you are all targeting that marketing: i was thinking that the user interface: project manager: yeah ? marketing: the shape of a banana is not it 's not really handy . project manager: yes it is . marketing: uh i do n't know the name o o in english uh this industrial designer: is it an e apple which has marketing: it 's not a fruit it 's a vegetable . user interface: it 's like a pumpkin or project manager: yeah ? pumpkin . marketing: green . project manager: green . user interface: green . project manager: um um um , yes i see . user interface: what does it taste like ? marketing: and you put in the salad . project manager: pep pepperoni . user interface: ah yeah , marketing: um user interface: is it what 's it in french ? project manager: poivron . marketing: oui c'est ca user interface: yeah , okay , so capsicum or pepper . yeah . project manager: uh pepper . marketing: pepper . project manager: but um they do d marketing: and it 's al it also suits with the double curve for easy of project manager: yeah . user interface: i do n't know , it seems a little bit kind of bulky to me , like project manager: yeah . marketing: no , i mean in a project manager: it 's not re it user interface: like with a banana you can have project manager: you you think it 's really fancy and fun ? you think that young people that are marketing: i 'm sure it 's fun . project manager: yeah . more than a banana ? marketing: but banana is not so handy , user interface: well industrial designer: banana is more handier as compared to this i think , and to capsicum . marketing: i think that 's handier . user interface: but like a banana you can you can be holding like this and have the scroll wheel kind of on top project manager: yeah . user interface: and just roll it back and forth like that , project manager: it 's kind it 's kind of it 's more uh user interface: but with uh i do n't know how you would hold a capsicum and project manager: it 's really ergonomic , it 's fit in the hand and you 've a lot of surface to to put the controls . marketing: user interface: project manager: okay let 's move on . marketing: yeah you 're right . project manager: so time is running , let 's move on . industrial designer: okay , so push buttons for the traditional users so that they do n't feel they are alienated , just and a scroll button with push technology for channel selection , volume control and teletext browsing . these are the three scroll buttons which are already available with us in the company and we we can go ahead with that . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , we can go to the next slide . then uh there are different kind of chips , one one is the basic chip and the regular chip and one an adva advanced chip . so we can have regular chip for control . pricing is a factor for us , that 's why we 'll go for the regular chip . and uh regular chip supports speaker support , so this functionality could be used for tracing the mobile phone which has been misplaced . user interface: so is that , when you say speaker support , you mean it just has some output pinned which which which kind of industrial designer: it could be a beep kind of thing . user interface: okay , but the speaker is actually attached to the to the chip in some way , or is just the the signal ? industrial designer: yes , yes , that 's right , it 's it 's onto the chip , user interface: okay . industrial designer: most most probably , not not hundred per cent sure about that . user interface: okay . so are there any issues where we place this this chip to make sure you can actually hear the the speaker from the outside of the banana ? industrial designer: that will be the volume control i think which which a user shou it it should be already pre-defined . it should be whatever will be the case , the chip is always going to be sitting inside . user interface: okay . yeah , but the speaker , if the speaker is actually on the chip , then if it 's too far away from the the casing , or if the casing is too thick , then you may not hear the the speaker . industrial designer: mm-hmm . uh , so we can have it at one of the boundaries so that things are slightly better . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: as or as hearing is concerned , we can have some gap at some place , user interface: yeah . so that 's something we have to keep in mind with the actual physical design is to keep the the speaker close enough to the outside . industrial designer: so that that 's right . okay . yeah . so these these were the component selection and these things . we can go to the next slide . and uh these were the findings which i i saw with the web web , that user wants to have control more than one device wants to control more than one device from the same remote control , so our tv remote can have little extra things to support additional devices like v_c_r_ d_v_d_ players which are usually attached with the tv , because users are like this and they do n't want to have one remote control for everything , so with this additional little , we might be having slightly better market for us . user interface: although , if it depends , if we like , if we are concentrating on like a fruit design , then maybe maybe we wan na sell a collection of fruit , you know , like a different fruit for each device . industrial designer: mm . of fruits . user interface: cause that , you know , that sometimes people like to collect um you know things that of a similar type . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: s objects . industrial designer: remotes objects , okay . project manager: crazy objects . marketing: i think that would be funny at the beginning but after one month you will be tired of be surrounded of fruits . user interface: well , you 're the one who wanted to do fruit in the first place . marketing: no but i think just one fruit to control everything . user interface: like a power fruit . marketing: a power fr a power m a mando , a supermando fruit . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: and uh as well as i could see on the web the scroll button is becoming really uh hot thing s project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and we should have it on the remote . project manager: okay , good . user interface: well marketing: actually i i did n't understand very well this trace speaker lost control . industrial designer: so you 're having a basis station . okay . your usually your remote sits on that . so you and it 's that 's why it can have chargeable batteries . now let 's say marketing: so you you have to buy two things , the banana and the basis station . project manager: bu it 's it 's . industrial designer: basis station is with the thing . project manager: you s you you thing . industrial designer: it 's like a telephone handset is there and the basis station for the telephone hand set is there . so now what user gets additionally he does n't have to buy batteries , they 're rechargeable batteries , so over the period of cor time he 'll recover the cost . so you 're having the basis station and there is a button , if you press that button wherever the remote it 'll start beeping so you know where the remote is . uh user interface: i think that 's a pretty handy feature . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: i think it 's kind of people would find that worth it even if it was n't uh a recharging station , even if they did n't have to buy extra batteries , you know . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm , mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: so marketing: yeah but i 'm a bit worried about the budget . industrial designer: uh this is basis station is nothing more , just it 's a wire which is coming from the main cable and uh you 're having one socket on which the thing sits . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: although you do need to include r_f_ kind of circuitry in the remote . industrial designer: that 's right . but all these things are usually in-house so we do n't have much problems . project manager: industrial designer: so component cost is going to be the least . anyway , we are not using really advanced technology , lcd has already been ruled out , a_s_r_ has been ruled out . so it 's the basic thing but very trendy and very user-friendly . user interface: okay . i 'm just wondering actually , 'cause , you know , i this whole fruit thing with the banana , it 's um it seemed like it first seems a bit kind of uh niche , like only a few people would really want a banana , industrial designer: and user interface: but what if it was kind of uh a stylised banana ? you know , rather than having it kind of you know yellow and really looking exactly like a banana , you could make it kind of silver . and um , you know to give you kind of the idea of a banana but without it looking you know completely kitsch . for better want of a better word project manager: you think that yellow it 's kitsch . user interface: you know ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: well , you know , i don i do n't know how many peop industrial designer: marketing: project manager: if you make something that looks like a banana it should have the colour of a banana . marketing: yeah . no , i i industrial designer: a yeah , otherwise it 'll be mis means you do n't get b any feeling then . user interface: well they project manager: o otherwise marketing: maybe li like that . industrial designer: it 's neither a banana nor a user interface: yeah , like this colour this colour maybe , you know , maybe like still in the shape of a banana . project manager: roughly . user interface: no , exactly . project manager: marketing: user interface: exactly . um , but you know , just maybe maybe not exactly the same texture as a banana and just kind of , you know because the thing is it 's gon na be a little bit difficult to make um to give like the texture of a banana anyway and to k to have the exact shape . i think if you 're gon na not be able to do it properly you may as well do it in a stylised way that just looks a bit more kind of , you know , twenty first century rather than sixties or seventies . project manager: yeah . okay . let 's move on . industrial designer: and uh going to the last slide . project manager: uh uh yeah . before before st before ending the meeting i 'd like to to draw some sketch about the pro future prot prototype . user interface: okay . project manager: go for it . industrial designer: okay . project manager: well no , not not you , you can finish your slides before industrial designer: okay . okay , so . anyway , users 'll be so the findings is users 'll be very interested in our locator device to find their misplaced remotes . project manager: mm okay . industrial designer: so that was very i thought it 's a very good suggestion by everybody . project manager: okay . industrial designer: that 's it . project manager: that 's all ? industrial designer: yep . project manager: okay , so mm so well done for the presentations . so we need to take some de decisions about um about what we 're going to do . user interface: project manager: so i i propose that you go to the whiteboard user interface: yeah . project manager: and we 're going to report all the ideas we had we had during this these presentations just to draw some sketch about what will be the prod final product user interface: okay . project manager: and uh where superman go banana and uh user interface: project manager: uh extra func functionalities such as wheels , um the speaker unit um well not in order not to lost the um the device , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: i do i do n't remember you call it ? industrial designer: that 's right . the basis station . that 's right . project manager: basis station , yeah . uh so um so we 're going for a stylish banana shape . user interface: yeah , so , i guess you wan na hold like the way the end of the banana you wan na kind of hold as ma you maybe wan na kinda hold like a gun rather than 'cause you do n't want it to point kind of towards the floor . project manager: yeah , right . user interface: so you know , so if you have like marketing: what about what about this shape ? more or less . project manager: we industrial designer: there 's less space on this to put with the buttons . project manager: i if it i if it has really the model shape of a bana you could marketing: yeah , but how many buttons do we need ? project manager: the the starting is good but it could it should have more the shape of a banana if you want to point really a at the thing . if you do n't want to to to do that movement which is which is difficult if you do n't have to do it in fact , it 's better . so ti time is running , industrial designer: uh what about a project manager: we have to we have to we have to to move forward . so let 's skip to uh this uh this this this idea . yeah . user interface: okay , so project manager: so we have this . user interface: so project manager: we have a a basis um , how do you call it ? industrial designer: the base station . project manager: a base station . industrial designer: right . project manager: we 'll have a base station extra uh on the side . user interface: okay , so i guess we need , you know , something that can fit a banana shaped object . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: uh , we have a r_f_ for um for beeping for beeping . industrial designer: that 's right , yeah , we need that , yeah . project manager: we need b r_f_ to beep . user interface: okay , so it 's uh project manager: so we that means we need a button on th on the on the basis . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: basis station . project manager: basis station , thank you . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: alright , so we need uh okay . project manager: can you go quickly please ? user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . so we are going to add uh also um you as you suggested the whee some wheels to control the volumes and channels and your tur turbo turbo uh button . user interface: yeah . yeah , which i think it 's it 's probably best actually on the on the underneath of the the device , industrial designer: turbo button . project manager: yeah , on the th yeah , maybe here . user interface: so you have project manager: and the and the wheel a a at the level of the thumb for instance . user interface: yes . yeah , so you have the thumb kind of here . project manager: and and you have two wheels . user interface: so yeah , you need one one here and one on on the other side , so you got volume an and channel . project manager: okay right . good . so no lcd . user interface: and , uh no lcd . project manager: okay great . um . very good . user interface: oh we need a we need a power um on off switch as well . industrial designer: okay . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: uh for the remote ? user interface: yeah . project manager: oh , just the switch , industrial designer: remotes do n't have power on off switch . project manager: no f not for the tv for the tv . uh so you user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . s no , that 'll be controlled by the those buttons 'll be there already , yeah . marketing: what a user interface: where ? industrial designer: means on the remote . project manager: on the side . user interface: okay . industrial designer: because remote is going to have both the interfaces , scroll as well as buttons . they are not going to cost you much , everything is in-house and now you do n't want the traditional users to be apprehensive of this . user interface: well , i dunno if the traditional user is gon na buy a a banana remote in the first place , you know . industrial designer: oh , yeah . that 's that 's another issue which i did n't think of . user interface: y i mean you need to kind of keep it um industrial designer: but you know our targets are very high , means fifty million euros is the profit which we want make . marketing: what about user interface: yeah , how many of these did we wan na sell ? i ca n't remember , industrial designer: twenty five . project manager: twenty five . industrial designer: twelve point five is the profit on one . marketing: user interface: yeah , but how many units did we need to to sell ? industrial designer: uh forty th four . point point four million ? marketing: four millions ? user interface: four point four million . industrial designer: point four million . user interface: that 's a lot of fruit . industrial designer: in the market . user interface: marketing: what about a project manager: yeah . so . well . no . time is running , we have to close the meeting in a few minutes . user interface: okay . project manager: so , okay , the next step , you can come back to your seat . user interface: okay . project manager: the next step is to go for to f is to go to uh to building a prototype , based on this , okay ? user interface: okay . project manager: so next meeting you guys have to prepare the followi things . you have to uh work on the look and feel uh design and you have to work on the user interface , in fact you two you have to work together to model the first uh f first prototype . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: uh marketing expert uh have to go to product evaluation . user interface: project manager: okay ? marketing: i wo what about adding the this word spotting , keyword spotting recognition saying volume up volume down ? project manager: it 's too difficult . marketing: it 's too difficult but people like innovation and that 's really uh innovative and i do n't know if it would cost a lot , just a few five words . project manager: it 's not a possi it will not be possible to implement it for the next prototype , so t it 's in the next prototype so let 's skip it . user interface: uh . marketing: okay . industrial designer: for the future prototypes . project manager: yeah , maybe , for the n if if if it it works well , we 'll go for uh an orange one . user interface: that can be the t that can be like the turbo banana plus plus commando . industrial designer: project manager: yeah yeah , honour the fruit . marketing: plus plus , okay . maybe objective banana ? project manager: okay . user interface: project manager: thanks very much . we 'll see n next meeting . bye . user interface: okay . industrial designer: so meeting 's over ? user interface: yep . we have to go design the prototype . industrial designer: okay . okay . okay . thank you . project manager: thank you . marketing: thank you . industrial designer: the problem is after all this meeting there is { gap }

user interface explained that the technology could recognize and train keywords in a certain order like a phrase . project manager asked user interface whether it was just to playback something and was not really to do the control . user interface supplemented that it could recognize a set target kind of word . so project manager thought this function is completely pointless from the interaction point of view .

summarize the group discussion about the turbo button when discussing the scroll wheel . </s> project manager: okay ? good afternoon . hope you have good lunch . user interface: hi . industrial designer: afternoon . yeah , we had falafel . project manager: oh . nice . and you ? user interface: uh , yes , i had something similar but non-vegetarian . project manager: okay . so today is um our third meeting . it will be about the conceptual design uh . if i come back to uh the minutes of the last meetings um . we decided not to go for speech recognition technologies because of some reasons and we are not decided about u the use of lcd screen on on the remote control because of costs . so maybe we cou wi will be able to clarify this this question to today . uh at the end of the meeting we should take decision on that point . so i hope uh that your respective pr presentations uh will help us . so each of you have some presentatio presentation to perform um who starts ? marketing: okay , . project manager: so marketing . marketing: industrial designer: project manager: so you are you saved your y your presentation somewhere ? marketing: yep . project manager: so you 're four ? marketing: four , yeah . project manager: which is trend watch . okay . mr marketing experts . marketing: yeah that 's me . project manager: so marketing: uh . well i investigate the preference more d i investigate deeper the preference of the users . uh so the the current investigation th uh th uh sorry the current the n current trends ? user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah ? okay . okay . well wha what i found um can you project manager: next slide ? yeah . marketing: yeah . thank you . what i found in order of importance from less to more important is that people want an easy to use device . after they they want something new technologic technologically speaking , but the most what they what they find more more interesting , more or more important it 's uh a fancy look and feel instead of uh instead of the current the current trend which was f the functional look and feel . industrial designer: marketing: so now more more cool aspect , ma more a cooler aspect uh rather than a device with many functions and many buttons with instead of i instead of ha of a device which can do many things , a device which is pleasant to to watch , to see . project manager: okay . marketing: uh also well in in euro in in paris and and milan the user interface: industrial designer: marketing: in paris and in paris and milan the the current trend of uh of clothes , furniture and all this all this fashion it 's it 's fruit and the the the theme is fruit and vegetables . user interface: project manager: mm . marketing: and also in the in the u_s_a_ the the current the mor the most popular feeling it 's it 's a spongy . spongy means eponge ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so maybe we should we should think in in this direction , so user interface: what what do you mean by fruit and vegetables and spongy ? marketing: user interface: what you mean clothe industrial designer: spongy means it it 's like sp marketing: fruit vegetables is the the new have you seen the last exposition of clothes in milan ? user interface: no , i missed that one . marketing: yeah , i i did n't miss an project manager: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: i did n't miss and i saw that the fruit , there are many fr pictures of fruits and vegetables in the clothes . user interface: oh , they 're okay so they 're not like dressed as a carrot they just have like pictures of fruit on , okay . marketing: no no , not not yet , not yet . project manager: marketing: yeah , yeah . user interface: so we 're not gon na have a remote control in the shape of of a banana , marketing: so te textu textures , yeah . user interface: just maybe marketing: yeah . user interface: marketing: vegetable textures and all this kind . project manager: drawings of bananas . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: uh user interface: okay and project manager: uh-huh . marketing: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: but what 's your suggestion how we can have some shape like that on the remote ? project manager: well so this is in the next slide certainly . marketing: uh no no , it 's not . project manager: it 's not ? user interface: marketing: it 's user interface: so which fruit are you thinking of ? marketing: and um . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: i ha i have n't thought of any particular fruit , but the general aspect of the of the remote control may may could remind some kind of vegetable , some kind of instead of vegetable , some natur mm uh natural object or something . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: but yeah it it depends on the project manager: so maybe you maybe you can display a banana on the lcd . user interface: oh , so you want the remote control to be the shape of a fruit , project manager: user interface: or you want just some kind of like fruit logo on the industrial designer: means buttons are in the shape of fruits , marketing: yeah maybe the shape the shape industrial designer: buttons are in the frape shape of fruits or something , apple , banana , something like that . marketing: no , not n not not too much focus , not too much focu not n not too s not too similar to a fruit because next year the ten the trend the trend will be different . project manager: apple for channel one . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: so we should n't be at re really attached to to the trend user interface: so something that looks half like a fruit and half like an elephant . marketing: but for instance , yeah . african or as an elephant ? industrial designer: that we can discuss afterwards . project manager: okay . user interface: but okay , marketing: user interface: i 'm not , i 'm not really sure if uh that would really appeal to everyone though , maybe just to fashion gurus , like maybe just like a little bit n a little fruit picture somewhere in the corner , but i do n't know about uh i dunno how ergonomic a , an orange is . marketing: well ma maybe we we should further specify what target are we focusing . i think in my opinion we should focus on on young people because they are more open to new devi new devices user interface: to fruit ? marketing: and also yeah according to the marketing report ninety p ninety five percent of young people was was was able to to buy a a n a cooler remote control . user interface: but is it uh is fruit cool ? marketing: what ? project manager: that 's a question . marketing: what ? user interface: is fruit cool ? marketing: yeah ? uh is the new trend of the user interface: well i guess , you know , apple has the ipod so , imagi marketing: user interface: just 'cause they have an apple on their on their product , does n't mean fruit is cool . marketing: no i think we we should think about a a shape with it a device with a shape of some user interface: okay , but it has to be easy to uh to use though and to hold you know , you do n't wan na pear or a watermelon . marketing: yeah . don do n't you think we can find uh the shape of a fruit which is handy to use ? user interface: well , probably the only thing is a banana that i can think of , industrial designer: banana . user interface: a cucumber . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: maybe too long . user interface: i dunno . marketing: or m user interface: maybe . too green . marketing: maybe . project manager: user interface: so , but i mean you also have to you have to also have , fit r all the buttons and you know . project manager: a banana . marketing: um user interface: it 's , it marketing: yeah . user interface: the thing is you have t normally with um with buttons , they have to be at some point attached to a circuit board so if you 're gon na have things like on a cylindrical kind of device it may be difficult to kind of to build . project manager: industrial designer: i do n't th it will be rolling a lot . marketing: yeah but i li i like your idea that we should n't have a lot of buttons b buttons so project manager: okay . yeah and you you you will not have pla enough a lot of place to put a lcd on a banana also . user interface: yeah . marketing: uh do you want a an lcd with twenty five euros ? project manager: well , you 're the marketing expert you should tell us if it is too much or not . user interface: well , this is marketing: i think well , according to the to the report people are more interested in in a fa fancy look and feel and in a technological inno in innovation , project manager: marketing: so , i will give more importance to the look and feel than rather than the project manager: so so you you you suggest to go f marketing: new inputs and also it 's i 'm not convinced about this lcd because you need uh internet connection , you need more things , it 's not just buying a new control re remote , you need buying control remote , buying uh project manager: okay . s so you 're simply marketing: more things . it 's not so simple . project manager: you 're simply looking s to a remote control that looks like a banana with few buttons with only a few buttons . marketing: for instance , yeah . yeah for for for given an an example yeah . project manager: okay good . so maybe you can go ahead ? marketing: yeah no , it 's what i already said . project manager: okay . thanks . um . okay , i 'll give the floor . so you are user interface guy . so you 're three ? user interface: okay . yeah . project manager: and it 's this one . user interface: yep . project manager: go for it . user interface: yep . okay . so . s next uh slide . okay . so i received an email um around lunchtime letting me know that the brilliant minds at our technology division had developed an integrated programmable sample sensor sample speaker unit , um which is a way for you to have a conversation with your coffee machine and or remote control . industrial designer: but it 's just a speaker right ? user interface: it 's no , what it is , it 's it 's very industrial designer: it 's not a microphone . user interface: it has a has a microphone , has a speaker , it 's got a little chip and it allows you t industrial designer: mm-hmm . actually i 'm not reading microphone there , so that 's why you can all have conversation , it just to speak to you . user interface: well , it 's a sample sensor sample speaker . sample sensor sample speaker . it means that it can recognize , it can do like a match on a on a certain phrase that you speak and then can play back a phrase in response to that . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: but uh there 's no kind of um understanding of the phrase . so , i mean , you know , industrial designer: okay . user interface: i guess you could build that in , you could you could link the the recognition of a certain phrase to some function on on the remote control . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: but basically the thing is , we have this technology available industrial designer: in-house . user interface: in-house . so , um industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: but the thing is obviously there 's still gon na be a cost if you decided to integrate that because you still have to pay for the c production of the components , industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: so um it it but it basically means we c we can kind of consider this from uh you know uh a theoretical or usability kind of viewpoint without worrying too much about you know how to develop it because we have this already done . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: whilst you know , some people might get annoyed if we uh if we just dump it , project manager: i there 's something that i unclear really understanding . is this a technology that recognize keywords speech keywords ? user interface: it 's it it 's no , well , it 's it 'll recognize uh i guess keywords , but you know keywords in a certain order like a phrase . you train it for a certain uh , for a certain phrase , you say the the example they said that they have uh up and running with their prototype is um well they 've actually integrated into the into the the coffee machine that uh that we 're producing is , you can say good morning to the coffee machine and it can recognize that phrase and it 'll playback good morning , how would you like your coffee ? project manager: and it 's just to , it 's just to playback something ? user interface: yeah . so actually that was a bad example , 'cause it does n't actually ask how do you want your coffee because it ca n't really understand the response , so . project manager: yeah yeah . so this is not s really to do to to do control . user interface: only , like , only in the sense that it it can recognize a set a set target kind of word an project manager: yeah . this is just more like a poi pois yeah . user interface: it 's designed it 's designed as a fun kind of thing , project manager: yeah yeah . user interface: but i guess you could use it as uh as a way to implement uh project manager: so it it 's c uh it it marketing: yeah but you can u project manager: it is a uh uh easy uh a fancy thing that you you can bring to we can bring to the remote control that will not have any uh user interface: completely pointless yeah . project manager: yeah comp completely pointless for the inter for from the interaction point of v point of view . user interface: yeah . yeah , unless you know , you like having conversation with your remote control . project manager: okay . user interface: marketing: yeah but the can we use it for saying okay , channel fifty , channel twenty ? user interface: well yeah , that 's the thing , if you can but you have to pro though i think it 's a fairly simple design so you would have to record into the device every possible combination , you have to s tr train it to l to learn channel fifteen , that whole thing , not just the word channel and the word fifteen , it does n't have that kind of logic in it . project manager: yeah yeah . so this is so this is this is much more than tak taking this technology , bringing it to the remote control and using it . user interface: so industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , that would be some development work . project manager: so this is out of discussion . so if if if it is something that you can we can bring easily and to put it into the banana remote control user interface: yeah . marketing: m mando . user interface: banana-mando . project manager: no this is mm banana-bando , yeah . user interface: banana-man marketing: banana-mando yeah . project manager: uh then it could be cool yeah . marketing: project manager: user interface: industrial designer: yeah okay , let 's go ahead . project manager: okay . user interface: i uh i i i do n't think it 's worth it though , i think it does n't really add much to the functional design and it 's it 's it 's not mature enough to use as a speech recognition engine , so project manager: okay . user interface: um , yeah . so if we can just move on to the next slide , i 've just done a quick mock-up of uh uh some of the features of our potential funky-looking uh remote control marketing: project manager: it does n't look like a banana at all . user interface: well , you see , i was i was unaware at this point of th of the fruit focus , project manager: yeah . user interface: um , so at the moment it 's more of a box focus . project manager: but you you can fit i you 're saying now you can fit it to marketing: looks like a tr look likes a a tro a tropical fruit . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , well , this is actu this could be a genetically engineered fruit that 's designed to be you know square so that it packs tighter in the boxes . marketing: yeah . user interface: but um , i 've just indicated here , we could have actually two scroll wheels , 'cause i think the scroll wheel is a fairly um key part of , you know , industrial designer: stable thing , that 's right . to have , user interface: i think everyone has has agreed that it 's that it could be quite a useful um thing , so . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: but i think it 's important , you know , to have two scroll wheels because , you know , you want one for for the channel , but you also want one for for the volume , project manager: mm . user interface: because it 's it 's the volume i it 's , you know it 's very handy for it to have uh instant kind of uh feedback uh and response , so . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: but um , i 've also included this turbo button because i think , you know , every design should have a turbo button , and well marketing: what 's a turbo button ? user interface: so this is you know , a unique problem with with televisions is that if you have this scro this scroll wheel for the television , the uh the tuner on the tv is not gon na be able to to switch between stations as fast as you can scroll , so you know , the th the person might want to have a uh might want to be able to scroll past television stations without seeing what 's on them , in which case it just waits until you stop scrolling and then , you know , displays that station . or they might want to scroll and and have a quick glimpse of it , even if it lags behind what they 're doing . marketing: it con it controls the speed ? user interface: yeah , so with this turbo button you can , say , skip over t channels if uh , you know , if i 'm if i 'm going if i 'm scrolling past them and you know , it 's um , you could have a little red light that comes up when they press it so they feel you know it 's really going fast or whatever . project manager: user interface: so yeah , that 's um , those are the two important uh features i think we need on the remote , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: but i mean we can discuss about what other kind of buttons we need , um . you know , i it could be , you know , if we if we wan na have like a very cheap kind of device , i mean , we could either consider that maybe we want to sell this as a very , if it 's gon na be a banana , you know that 's a pretty gimmicky kind of thing that does n't have that much functionality , it 's just you know a couple of scroll wheels and a button cause it 's hard to get so many buttons on a banana project manager: it 's enough . user interface: and it 's still very it may even be for most for some people more functional than their current remote , but if they have these scroll wheels , so , um you know , what other buttons do we want ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: i mean we could have well , i guess you need an on and off switch , project manager: switch on . yeah . user interface: but you could you could o you could turn it turn it on by taking the top off the banana maybe , you know , it 's kind of like a spy kind of flick thing . marketing: yeah . so sounds crazy . i like crazy ideas . user interface: that 's why you 're a marketing guru . industrial designer: project manager: okay . marketing: yeah , of course . project manager: so i it looks like we 're going completely to forget about the lcd thing . user interface: well , that 's the thing , as have we decided that we can only spend , uh , twenty five euro ? project manager: i think that user interface: well not spend , but you know , charge twenty five euro . marketing: i i think we could use somehow the s coffee machine dialogue interface or so . project manager: no we can we ca n't use that . marketing: you we can ? we ca n't . project manager: we ca n't use that to to comman co communicate , industrial designer: communicate . project manager: it 's just a thing marketing: yeah , but we can say channel twenty five . industrial designer: it 's one way . project manager: no . marketing: no ? user interface: but then you have to have a template for every channel , for a hundred channels , you have to be able to to recognize industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: it 's not a lot one hundred templates , user interface: mm . well , i f i think it 's probably more than , than our can handle because it 's designed for a coffee machine , you know , to say hello in the morning . marketing: it 's not project manager: yeah . marketing: ah , it 's designed for a cof okay . is it design for a coffee machine ? user interface: well that 's its current application , i would presume that it 's kind of , they would n't design it to handle a hundred things th so . marketing: okay . yeah . maybe you could ask your the you could ask the engineering department if we can project manager: yeah . a good good good thing . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: you want to g to move to your slides ? user interface: but uh industrial designer: yeah , that 's right , yeah . project manager: you 're finished ? user interface: well i just i just made the point , i do n't i do n't know if that speech recognition is , you know , even if we can do it , i think it 's not really appropriate for uh television environment . project manager: yeah i think so . user interface: but um i did have one thing from a previous meeting , you were talking about um being able to find the remote control marketing: yeah . user interface: and i was talking about extendin being able to extend the remote control by having you know , a base station that can control other things as well . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: it might be useful to have some kind of base station , even if it 's just you press on a button on it and uh and the remote control starts beeping , you know , this is a way of finding the remote . project manager: mm . user interface: y in that case maybe the maybe the speech recognition the speech thing could be useful just to say i 'm here project manager: exactly yeah . user interface: but uh it 's probably a bit of overkill if you could just have a a beeping industrial designer: so it 's a speech synthesis kind of thing , user interface: it 's speech industrial designer: something has been uh stored and it 's just uh spoken out . user interface: it 's it 's speech synthesis and s it 's speech kind of , not really speech recognition , but kind of pattern matching , yeah industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: oh , good idea . industrial designer: yeah . that 's right . project manager: very good . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , let 's move on . so you 're two ? industrial designer: that 's right . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so this is going to be about the component design . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so first thing is we need power source for the remote control . so i was of the idea that we can have two kind of power supplies , one is the usual batteries which are there , they could be chargeable batteries if there 's a basis station kind of thing and on top of that we can have solar cells , when the lighting conditions are good they can be used so it 'll be pretty uh innovative kind . then uh we need plastic with some elasticity so that if your if the remote control falls it 's not broken directly into pieces , there should be some flexibility in t user interface: i guess that fits in with the spongy kind of design philosophy . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . so there should we should think of something like that and then it should be double curve . the s science for the ease of handling and there are some other issues why we need double curve . then controls for the traditionals u traditional users we can have the push buttons so that they do n't feel that it 's an alien thing for them . user interface: so , just one second , when you say double curve , what do you actually mean ? you reckon you could like draw us a thing on the , on the whiteboard 'cause i 'm not sure industrial designer: double curve is , you have curves on both the sides if i 'm right . so it 's symmetrical kind of thing , whatever it is . user interface: okay , but like , kind of convex or concave ? industrial designer: so , it could be curve , so it could be convex , conve concave , depending on what what we want . project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: user interface: okay . industrial designer: so there are flats , there are single curve and there are double curves . user interface: okay . industrial designer: these are the three things , and there are different materials , with plastic you can have double curve but with uh certain other materials we can not have double curve . so there there was uh there were many other materials like wood , titanium and all those things , but plastic is i think is the most appropriate one , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: it 'll bring the cost down user interface: although , you know , wood could be uh quite a stylish uh option , industrial designer: and anyway it 's user interface: if you take like , nice quality kind of wood that 's got a nice grain and you kind of put some , some varnish on . project manager: mm but i but there is no elasticity which could be industrial designer: wooden cases user interface: well it depends , i mean , you have the outs the wood itself is not gon na break so you do n't have to worry too much about the case being broken , project manager: yeah but the components inside . user interface: it 's the inside . yeah but inside you know you could have you can still have some kind of cushioning that 's not visible to the to the user . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: very too expensive to do . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . project manager: and also uh user interface: and i mean you could also , you can have just a very thin veneer of wood as well . project manager: yeah but it 's more easier to do a banana in plastic than uh in wood . user interface: that 's true , but are we set on the banana idea ? industrial designer: project manager: well it look like marketing: actually project manager: it looks like you are all targeting that marketing: i was thinking that the user interface: project manager: yeah ? marketing: the shape of a banana is not it 's not really handy . project manager: yes it is . marketing: uh i do n't know the name o o in english uh this industrial designer: is it an e apple which has marketing: it 's not a fruit it 's a vegetable . user interface: it 's like a pumpkin or project manager: yeah ? pumpkin . marketing: green . project manager: green . user interface: green . project manager: um um um , yes i see . user interface: what does it taste like ? marketing: and you put in the salad . project manager: pep pepperoni . user interface: ah yeah , marketing: um user interface: is it what 's it in french ? project manager: poivron . marketing: oui c'est ca user interface: yeah , okay , so capsicum or pepper . yeah . project manager: uh pepper . marketing: pepper . project manager: but um they do d marketing: and it 's al it also suits with the double curve for easy of project manager: yeah . user interface: i do n't know , it seems a little bit kind of bulky to me , like project manager: yeah . marketing: no , i mean in a project manager: it 's not re it user interface: like with a banana you can have project manager: you you think it 's really fancy and fun ? you think that young people that are marketing: i 'm sure it 's fun . project manager: yeah . more than a banana ? marketing: but banana is not so handy , user interface: well industrial designer: banana is more handier as compared to this i think , and to capsicum . marketing: i think that 's handier . user interface: but like a banana you can you can be holding like this and have the scroll wheel kind of on top project manager: yeah . user interface: and just roll it back and forth like that , project manager: it 's kind it 's kind of it 's more uh user interface: but with uh i do n't know how you would hold a capsicum and project manager: it 's really ergonomic , it 's fit in the hand and you 've a lot of surface to to put the controls . marketing: user interface: project manager: okay let 's move on . marketing: yeah you 're right . project manager: so time is running , let 's move on . industrial designer: okay , so push buttons for the traditional users so that they do n't feel they are alienated , just and a scroll button with push technology for channel selection , volume control and teletext browsing . these are the three scroll buttons which are already available with us in the company and we we can go ahead with that . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , we can go to the next slide . then uh there are different kind of chips , one one is the basic chip and the regular chip and one an adva advanced chip . so we can have regular chip for control . pricing is a factor for us , that 's why we 'll go for the regular chip . and uh regular chip supports speaker support , so this functionality could be used for tracing the mobile phone which has been misplaced . user interface: so is that , when you say speaker support , you mean it just has some output pinned which which which kind of industrial designer: it could be a beep kind of thing . user interface: okay , but the speaker is actually attached to the to the chip in some way , or is just the the signal ? industrial designer: yes , yes , that 's right , it 's it 's onto the chip , user interface: okay . industrial designer: most most probably , not not hundred per cent sure about that . user interface: okay . so are there any issues where we place this this chip to make sure you can actually hear the the speaker from the outside of the banana ? industrial designer: that will be the volume control i think which which a user shou it it should be already pre-defined . it should be whatever will be the case , the chip is always going to be sitting inside . user interface: okay . yeah , but the speaker , if the speaker is actually on the chip , then if it 's too far away from the the casing , or if the casing is too thick , then you may not hear the the speaker . industrial designer: mm-hmm . uh , so we can have it at one of the boundaries so that things are slightly better . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: as or as hearing is concerned , we can have some gap at some place , user interface: yeah . so that 's something we have to keep in mind with the actual physical design is to keep the the speaker close enough to the outside . industrial designer: so that that 's right . okay . yeah . so these these were the component selection and these things . we can go to the next slide . and uh these were the findings which i i saw with the web web , that user wants to have control more than one device wants to control more than one device from the same remote control , so our tv remote can have little extra things to support additional devices like v_c_r_ d_v_d_ players which are usually attached with the tv , because users are like this and they do n't want to have one remote control for everything , so with this additional little , we might be having slightly better market for us . user interface: although , if it depends , if we like , if we are concentrating on like a fruit design , then maybe maybe we wan na sell a collection of fruit , you know , like a different fruit for each device . industrial designer: mm . of fruits . user interface: cause that , you know , that sometimes people like to collect um you know things that of a similar type . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: s objects . industrial designer: remotes objects , okay . project manager: crazy objects . marketing: i think that would be funny at the beginning but after one month you will be tired of be surrounded of fruits . user interface: well , you 're the one who wanted to do fruit in the first place . marketing: no but i think just one fruit to control everything . user interface: like a power fruit . marketing: a power fr a power m a mando , a supermando fruit . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: and uh as well as i could see on the web the scroll button is becoming really uh hot thing s project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and we should have it on the remote . project manager: okay , good . user interface: well marketing: actually i i did n't understand very well this trace speaker lost control . industrial designer: so you 're having a basis station . okay . your usually your remote sits on that . so you and it 's that 's why it can have chargeable batteries . now let 's say marketing: so you you have to buy two things , the banana and the basis station . project manager: bu it 's it 's . industrial designer: basis station is with the thing . project manager: you s you you thing . industrial designer: it 's like a telephone handset is there and the basis station for the telephone hand set is there . so now what user gets additionally he does n't have to buy batteries , they 're rechargeable batteries , so over the period of cor time he 'll recover the cost . so you 're having the basis station and there is a button , if you press that button wherever the remote it 'll start beeping so you know where the remote is . uh user interface: i think that 's a pretty handy feature . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: i think it 's kind of people would find that worth it even if it was n't uh a recharging station , even if they did n't have to buy extra batteries , you know . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm , mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: so marketing: yeah but i 'm a bit worried about the budget . industrial designer: uh this is basis station is nothing more , just it 's a wire which is coming from the main cable and uh you 're having one socket on which the thing sits . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: although you do need to include r_f_ kind of circuitry in the remote . industrial designer: that 's right . but all these things are usually in-house so we do n't have much problems . project manager: industrial designer: so component cost is going to be the least . anyway , we are not using really advanced technology , lcd has already been ruled out , a_s_r_ has been ruled out . so it 's the basic thing but very trendy and very user-friendly . user interface: okay . i 'm just wondering actually , 'cause , you know , i this whole fruit thing with the banana , it 's um it seemed like it first seems a bit kind of uh niche , like only a few people would really want a banana , industrial designer: and user interface: but what if it was kind of uh a stylised banana ? you know , rather than having it kind of you know yellow and really looking exactly like a banana , you could make it kind of silver . and um , you know to give you kind of the idea of a banana but without it looking you know completely kitsch . for better want of a better word project manager: you think that yellow it 's kitsch . user interface: you know ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: well , you know , i don i do n't know how many peop industrial designer: marketing: project manager: if you make something that looks like a banana it should have the colour of a banana . marketing: yeah . no , i i industrial designer: a yeah , otherwise it 'll be mis means you do n't get b any feeling then . user interface: well they project manager: o otherwise marketing: maybe li like that . industrial designer: it 's neither a banana nor a user interface: yeah , like this colour this colour maybe , you know , maybe like still in the shape of a banana . project manager: roughly . user interface: no , exactly . project manager: marketing: user interface: exactly . um , but you know , just maybe maybe not exactly the same texture as a banana and just kind of , you know because the thing is it 's gon na be a little bit difficult to make um to give like the texture of a banana anyway and to k to have the exact shape . i think if you 're gon na not be able to do it properly you may as well do it in a stylised way that just looks a bit more kind of , you know , twenty first century rather than sixties or seventies . project manager: yeah . okay . let 's move on . industrial designer: and uh going to the last slide . project manager: uh uh yeah . before before st before ending the meeting i 'd like to to draw some sketch about the pro future prot prototype . user interface: okay . project manager: go for it . industrial designer: okay . project manager: well no , not not you , you can finish your slides before industrial designer: okay . okay , so . anyway , users 'll be so the findings is users 'll be very interested in our locator device to find their misplaced remotes . project manager: mm okay . industrial designer: so that was very i thought it 's a very good suggestion by everybody . project manager: okay . industrial designer: that 's it . project manager: that 's all ? industrial designer: yep . project manager: okay , so mm so well done for the presentations . so we need to take some de decisions about um about what we 're going to do . user interface: project manager: so i i propose that you go to the whiteboard user interface: yeah . project manager: and we 're going to report all the ideas we had we had during this these presentations just to draw some sketch about what will be the prod final product user interface: okay . project manager: and uh where superman go banana and uh user interface: project manager: uh extra func functionalities such as wheels , um the speaker unit um well not in order not to lost the um the device , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: i do i do n't remember you call it ? industrial designer: that 's right . the basis station . that 's right . project manager: basis station , yeah . uh so um so we 're going for a stylish banana shape . user interface: yeah , so , i guess you wan na hold like the way the end of the banana you wan na kind of hold as ma you maybe wan na kinda hold like a gun rather than 'cause you do n't want it to point kind of towards the floor . project manager: yeah , right . user interface: so you know , so if you have like marketing: what about what about this shape ? more or less . project manager: we industrial designer: there 's less space on this to put with the buttons . project manager: i if it i if it has really the model shape of a bana you could marketing: yeah , but how many buttons do we need ? project manager: the the starting is good but it could it should have more the shape of a banana if you want to point really a at the thing . if you do n't want to to to do that movement which is which is difficult if you do n't have to do it in fact , it 's better . so ti time is running , industrial designer: uh what about a project manager: we have to we have to we have to to move forward . so let 's skip to uh this uh this this this idea . yeah . user interface: okay , so project manager: so we have this . user interface: so project manager: we have a a basis um , how do you call it ? industrial designer: the base station . project manager: a base station . industrial designer: right . project manager: we 'll have a base station extra uh on the side . user interface: okay , so i guess we need , you know , something that can fit a banana shaped object . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: uh , we have a r_f_ for um for beeping for beeping . industrial designer: that 's right , yeah , we need that , yeah . project manager: we need b r_f_ to beep . user interface: okay , so it 's uh project manager: so we that means we need a button on th on the on the basis . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: basis station . project manager: basis station , thank you . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: alright , so we need uh okay . project manager: can you go quickly please ? user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . so we are going to add uh also um you as you suggested the whee some wheels to control the volumes and channels and your tur turbo turbo uh button . user interface: yeah . yeah , which i think it 's it 's probably best actually on the on the underneath of the the device , industrial designer: turbo button . project manager: yeah , on the th yeah , maybe here . user interface: so you have project manager: and the and the wheel a a at the level of the thumb for instance . user interface: yes . yeah , so you have the thumb kind of here . project manager: and and you have two wheels . user interface: so yeah , you need one one here and one on on the other side , so you got volume an and channel . project manager: okay right . good . so no lcd . user interface: and , uh no lcd . project manager: okay great . um . very good . user interface: oh we need a we need a power um on off switch as well . industrial designer: okay . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: uh for the remote ? user interface: yeah . project manager: oh , just the switch , industrial designer: remotes do n't have power on off switch . project manager: no f not for the tv for the tv . uh so you user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . s no , that 'll be controlled by the those buttons 'll be there already , yeah . marketing: what a user interface: where ? industrial designer: means on the remote . project manager: on the side . user interface: okay . industrial designer: because remote is going to have both the interfaces , scroll as well as buttons . they are not going to cost you much , everything is in-house and now you do n't want the traditional users to be apprehensive of this . user interface: well , i dunno if the traditional user is gon na buy a a banana remote in the first place , you know . industrial designer: oh , yeah . that 's that 's another issue which i did n't think of . user interface: y i mean you need to kind of keep it um industrial designer: but you know our targets are very high , means fifty million euros is the profit which we want make . marketing: what about user interface: yeah , how many of these did we wan na sell ? i ca n't remember , industrial designer: twenty five . project manager: twenty five . industrial designer: twelve point five is the profit on one . marketing: user interface: yeah , but how many units did we need to to sell ? industrial designer: uh forty th four . point point four million ? marketing: four millions ? user interface: four point four million . industrial designer: point four million . user interface: that 's a lot of fruit . industrial designer: in the market . user interface: marketing: what about a project manager: yeah . so . well . no . time is running , we have to close the meeting in a few minutes . user interface: okay . project manager: so , okay , the next step , you can come back to your seat . user interface: okay . project manager: the next step is to go for to f is to go to uh to building a prototype , based on this , okay ? user interface: okay . project manager: so next meeting you guys have to prepare the followi things . you have to uh work on the look and feel uh design and you have to work on the user interface , in fact you two you have to work together to model the first uh f first prototype . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: uh marketing expert uh have to go to product evaluation . user interface: project manager: okay ? marketing: i wo what about adding the this word spotting , keyword spotting recognition saying volume up volume down ? project manager: it 's too difficult . marketing: it 's too difficult but people like innovation and that 's really uh innovative and i do n't know if it would cost a lot , just a few five words . project manager: it 's not a possi it will not be possible to implement it for the next prototype , so t it 's in the next prototype so let 's skip it . user interface: uh . marketing: okay . industrial designer: for the future prototypes . project manager: yeah , maybe , for the n if if if it it works well , we 'll go for uh an orange one . user interface: that can be the t that can be like the turbo banana plus plus commando . industrial designer: project manager: yeah yeah , honour the fruit . marketing: plus plus , okay . maybe objective banana ? project manager: okay . user interface: project manager: thanks very much . we 'll see n next meeting . bye . user interface: okay . industrial designer: so meeting 's over ? user interface: yep . we have to go design the prototype . industrial designer: okay . okay . okay . thank you . project manager: thank you . marketing: thank you . industrial designer: the problem is after all this meeting there is { gap }

user interface suggested including the turbo button in scroll wheels and introduced that the turbo button was like a scroll wheel to scroll the past television stations without seeing what 's on them . marketing asked about the speed whether it could be controlled . user interface explained that users could skip over channels and know it was going fast or whatever . user interface also suggested switch on and off buttons . project manager agreed to add one switch on button .

summarize the discussion about the conclusion on the prototype . </s> project manager: okay ? good afternoon . hope you have good lunch . user interface: hi . industrial designer: afternoon . yeah , we had falafel . project manager: oh . nice . and you ? user interface: uh , yes , i had something similar but non-vegetarian . project manager: okay . so today is um our third meeting . it will be about the conceptual design uh . if i come back to uh the minutes of the last meetings um . we decided not to go for speech recognition technologies because of some reasons and we are not decided about u the use of lcd screen on on the remote control because of costs . so maybe we cou wi will be able to clarify this this question to today . uh at the end of the meeting we should take decision on that point . so i hope uh that your respective pr presentations uh will help us . so each of you have some presentatio presentation to perform um who starts ? marketing: okay , . project manager: so marketing . marketing: industrial designer: project manager: so you are you saved your y your presentation somewhere ? marketing: yep . project manager: so you 're four ? marketing: four , yeah . project manager: which is trend watch . okay . mr marketing experts . marketing: yeah that 's me . project manager: so marketing: uh . well i investigate the preference more d i investigate deeper the preference of the users . uh so the the current investigation th uh th uh sorry the current the n current trends ? user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah ? okay . okay . well wha what i found um can you project manager: next slide ? yeah . marketing: yeah . thank you . what i found in order of importance from less to more important is that people want an easy to use device . after they they want something new technologic technologically speaking , but the most what they what they find more more interesting , more or more important it 's uh a fancy look and feel instead of uh instead of the current the current trend which was f the functional look and feel . industrial designer: marketing: so now more more cool aspect , ma more a cooler aspect uh rather than a device with many functions and many buttons with instead of i instead of ha of a device which can do many things , a device which is pleasant to to watch , to see . project manager: okay . marketing: uh also well in in euro in in paris and and milan the user interface: industrial designer: marketing: in paris and in paris and milan the the current trend of uh of clothes , furniture and all this all this fashion it 's it 's fruit and the the the theme is fruit and vegetables . user interface: project manager: mm . marketing: and also in the in the u_s_a_ the the current the mor the most popular feeling it 's it 's a spongy . spongy means eponge ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: so maybe we should we should think in in this direction , so user interface: what what do you mean by fruit and vegetables and spongy ? marketing: user interface: what you mean clothe industrial designer: spongy means it it 's like sp marketing: fruit vegetables is the the new have you seen the last exposition of clothes in milan ? user interface: no , i missed that one . marketing: yeah , i i did n't miss an project manager: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: i did n't miss and i saw that the fruit , there are many fr pictures of fruits and vegetables in the clothes . user interface: oh , they 're okay so they 're not like dressed as a carrot they just have like pictures of fruit on , okay . marketing: no no , not not yet , not yet . project manager: marketing: yeah , yeah . user interface: so we 're not gon na have a remote control in the shape of of a banana , marketing: so te textu textures , yeah . user interface: just maybe marketing: yeah . user interface: marketing: vegetable textures and all this kind . project manager: drawings of bananas . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: uh user interface: okay and project manager: uh-huh . marketing: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: but what 's your suggestion how we can have some shape like that on the remote ? project manager: well so this is in the next slide certainly . marketing: uh no no , it 's not . project manager: it 's not ? user interface: marketing: it 's user interface: so which fruit are you thinking of ? marketing: and um . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: i ha i have n't thought of any particular fruit , but the general aspect of the of the remote control may may could remind some kind of vegetable , some kind of instead of vegetable , some natur mm uh natural object or something . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: but yeah it it depends on the project manager: so maybe you maybe you can display a banana on the lcd . user interface: oh , so you want the remote control to be the shape of a fruit , project manager: user interface: or you want just some kind of like fruit logo on the industrial designer: means buttons are in the shape of fruits , marketing: yeah maybe the shape the shape industrial designer: buttons are in the frape shape of fruits or something , apple , banana , something like that . marketing: no , not n not not too much focus , not too much focu not n not too s not too similar to a fruit because next year the ten the trend the trend will be different . project manager: apple for channel one . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: so we should n't be at re really attached to to the trend user interface: so something that looks half like a fruit and half like an elephant . marketing: but for instance , yeah . african or as an elephant ? industrial designer: that we can discuss afterwards . project manager: okay . user interface: but okay , marketing: user interface: i 'm not , i 'm not really sure if uh that would really appeal to everyone though , maybe just to fashion gurus , like maybe just like a little bit n a little fruit picture somewhere in the corner , but i do n't know about uh i dunno how ergonomic a , an orange is . marketing: well ma maybe we we should further specify what target are we focusing . i think in my opinion we should focus on on young people because they are more open to new devi new devices user interface: to fruit ? marketing: and also yeah according to the marketing report ninety p ninety five percent of young people was was was able to to buy a a n a cooler remote control . user interface: but is it uh is fruit cool ? marketing: what ? project manager: that 's a question . marketing: what ? user interface: is fruit cool ? marketing: yeah ? uh is the new trend of the user interface: well i guess , you know , apple has the ipod so , imagi marketing: user interface: just 'cause they have an apple on their on their product , does n't mean fruit is cool . marketing: no i think we we should think about a a shape with it a device with a shape of some user interface: okay , but it has to be easy to uh to use though and to hold you know , you do n't wan na pear or a watermelon . marketing: yeah . don do n't you think we can find uh the shape of a fruit which is handy to use ? user interface: well , probably the only thing is a banana that i can think of , industrial designer: banana . user interface: a cucumber . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: maybe too long . user interface: i dunno . marketing: or m user interface: maybe . too green . marketing: maybe . project manager: user interface: so , but i mean you also have to you have to also have , fit r all the buttons and you know . project manager: a banana . marketing: um user interface: it 's , it marketing: yeah . user interface: the thing is you have t normally with um with buttons , they have to be at some point attached to a circuit board so if you 're gon na have things like on a cylindrical kind of device it may be difficult to kind of to build . project manager: industrial designer: i do n't th it will be rolling a lot . marketing: yeah but i li i like your idea that we should n't have a lot of buttons b buttons so project manager: okay . yeah and you you you will not have pla enough a lot of place to put a lcd on a banana also . user interface: yeah . marketing: uh do you want a an lcd with twenty five euros ? project manager: well , you 're the marketing expert you should tell us if it is too much or not . user interface: well , this is marketing: i think well , according to the to the report people are more interested in in a fa fancy look and feel and in a technological inno in innovation , project manager: marketing: so , i will give more importance to the look and feel than rather than the project manager: so so you you you suggest to go f marketing: new inputs and also it 's i 'm not convinced about this lcd because you need uh internet connection , you need more things , it 's not just buying a new control re remote , you need buying control remote , buying uh project manager: okay . s so you 're simply marketing: more things . it 's not so simple . project manager: you 're simply looking s to a remote control that looks like a banana with few buttons with only a few buttons . marketing: for instance , yeah . yeah for for for given an an example yeah . project manager: okay good . so maybe you can go ahead ? marketing: yeah no , it 's what i already said . project manager: okay . thanks . um . okay , i 'll give the floor . so you are user interface guy . so you 're three ? user interface: okay . yeah . project manager: and it 's this one . user interface: yep . project manager: go for it . user interface: yep . okay . so . s next uh slide . okay . so i received an email um around lunchtime letting me know that the brilliant minds at our technology division had developed an integrated programmable sample sensor sample speaker unit , um which is a way for you to have a conversation with your coffee machine and or remote control . industrial designer: but it 's just a speaker right ? user interface: it 's no , what it is , it 's it 's very industrial designer: it 's not a microphone . user interface: it has a has a microphone , has a speaker , it 's got a little chip and it allows you t industrial designer: mm-hmm . actually i 'm not reading microphone there , so that 's why you can all have conversation , it just to speak to you . user interface: well , it 's a sample sensor sample speaker . sample sensor sample speaker . it means that it can recognize , it can do like a match on a on a certain phrase that you speak and then can play back a phrase in response to that . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: but uh there 's no kind of um understanding of the phrase . so , i mean , you know , industrial designer: okay . user interface: i guess you could build that in , you could you could link the the recognition of a certain phrase to some function on on the remote control . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: but basically the thing is , we have this technology available industrial designer: in-house . user interface: in-house . so , um industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: but the thing is obviously there 's still gon na be a cost if you decided to integrate that because you still have to pay for the c production of the components , industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: so um it it but it basically means we c we can kind of consider this from uh you know uh a theoretical or usability kind of viewpoint without worrying too much about you know how to develop it because we have this already done . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: whilst you know , some people might get annoyed if we uh if we just dump it , project manager: i there 's something that i unclear really understanding . is this a technology that recognize keywords speech keywords ? user interface: it 's it it 's no , well , it 's it 'll recognize uh i guess keywords , but you know keywords in a certain order like a phrase . you train it for a certain uh , for a certain phrase , you say the the example they said that they have uh up and running with their prototype is um well they 've actually integrated into the into the the coffee machine that uh that we 're producing is , you can say good morning to the coffee machine and it can recognize that phrase and it 'll playback good morning , how would you like your coffee ? project manager: and it 's just to , it 's just to playback something ? user interface: yeah . so actually that was a bad example , 'cause it does n't actually ask how do you want your coffee because it ca n't really understand the response , so . project manager: yeah yeah . so this is not s really to do to to do control . user interface: only , like , only in the sense that it it can recognize a set a set target kind of word an project manager: yeah . this is just more like a poi pois yeah . user interface: it 's designed it 's designed as a fun kind of thing , project manager: yeah yeah . user interface: but i guess you could use it as uh as a way to implement uh project manager: so it it 's c uh it it marketing: yeah but you can u project manager: it is a uh uh easy uh a fancy thing that you you can bring to we can bring to the remote control that will not have any uh user interface: completely pointless yeah . project manager: yeah comp completely pointless for the inter for from the interaction point of v point of view . user interface: yeah . yeah , unless you know , you like having conversation with your remote control . project manager: okay . user interface: marketing: yeah but the can we use it for saying okay , channel fifty , channel twenty ? user interface: well yeah , that 's the thing , if you can but you have to pro though i think it 's a fairly simple design so you would have to record into the device every possible combination , you have to s tr train it to l to learn channel fifteen , that whole thing , not just the word channel and the word fifteen , it does n't have that kind of logic in it . project manager: yeah yeah . so this is so this is this is much more than tak taking this technology , bringing it to the remote control and using it . user interface: so industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , that would be some development work . project manager: so this is out of discussion . so if if if it is something that you can we can bring easily and to put it into the banana remote control user interface: yeah . marketing: m mando . user interface: banana-mando . project manager: no this is mm banana-bando , yeah . user interface: banana-man marketing: banana-mando yeah . project manager: uh then it could be cool yeah . marketing: project manager: user interface: industrial designer: yeah okay , let 's go ahead . project manager: okay . user interface: i uh i i i do n't think it 's worth it though , i think it does n't really add much to the functional design and it 's it 's it 's not mature enough to use as a speech recognition engine , so project manager: okay . user interface: um , yeah . so if we can just move on to the next slide , i 've just done a quick mock-up of uh uh some of the features of our potential funky-looking uh remote control marketing: project manager: it does n't look like a banana at all . user interface: well , you see , i was i was unaware at this point of th of the fruit focus , project manager: yeah . user interface: um , so at the moment it 's more of a box focus . project manager: but you you can fit i you 're saying now you can fit it to marketing: looks like a tr look likes a a tro a tropical fruit . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah , well , this is actu this could be a genetically engineered fruit that 's designed to be you know square so that it packs tighter in the boxes . marketing: yeah . user interface: but um , i 've just indicated here , we could have actually two scroll wheels , 'cause i think the scroll wheel is a fairly um key part of , you know , industrial designer: stable thing , that 's right . to have , user interface: i think everyone has has agreed that it 's that it could be quite a useful um thing , so . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: but i think it 's important , you know , to have two scroll wheels because , you know , you want one for for the channel , but you also want one for for the volume , project manager: mm . user interface: because it 's it 's the volume i it 's , you know it 's very handy for it to have uh instant kind of uh feedback uh and response , so . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: but um , i 've also included this turbo button because i think , you know , every design should have a turbo button , and well marketing: what 's a turbo button ? user interface: so this is you know , a unique problem with with televisions is that if you have this scro this scroll wheel for the television , the uh the tuner on the tv is not gon na be able to to switch between stations as fast as you can scroll , so you know , the th the person might want to have a uh might want to be able to scroll past television stations without seeing what 's on them , in which case it just waits until you stop scrolling and then , you know , displays that station . or they might want to scroll and and have a quick glimpse of it , even if it lags behind what they 're doing . marketing: it con it controls the speed ? user interface: yeah , so with this turbo button you can , say , skip over t channels if uh , you know , if i 'm if i 'm going if i 'm scrolling past them and you know , it 's um , you could have a little red light that comes up when they press it so they feel you know it 's really going fast or whatever . project manager: user interface: so yeah , that 's um , those are the two important uh features i think we need on the remote , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: but i mean we can discuss about what other kind of buttons we need , um . you know , i it could be , you know , if we if we wan na have like a very cheap kind of device , i mean , we could either consider that maybe we want to sell this as a very , if it 's gon na be a banana , you know that 's a pretty gimmicky kind of thing that does n't have that much functionality , it 's just you know a couple of scroll wheels and a button cause it 's hard to get so many buttons on a banana project manager: it 's enough . user interface: and it 's still very it may even be for most for some people more functional than their current remote , but if they have these scroll wheels , so , um you know , what other buttons do we want ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: i mean we could have well , i guess you need an on and off switch , project manager: switch on . yeah . user interface: but you could you could o you could turn it turn it on by taking the top off the banana maybe , you know , it 's kind of like a spy kind of flick thing . marketing: yeah . so sounds crazy . i like crazy ideas . user interface: that 's why you 're a marketing guru . industrial designer: project manager: okay . marketing: yeah , of course . project manager: so i it looks like we 're going completely to forget about the lcd thing . user interface: well , that 's the thing , as have we decided that we can only spend , uh , twenty five euro ? project manager: i think that user interface: well not spend , but you know , charge twenty five euro . marketing: i i think we could use somehow the s coffee machine dialogue interface or so . project manager: no we can we ca n't use that . marketing: you we can ? we ca n't . project manager: we ca n't use that to to comman co communicate , industrial designer: communicate . project manager: it 's just a thing marketing: yeah , but we can say channel twenty five . industrial designer: it 's one way . project manager: no . marketing: no ? user interface: but then you have to have a template for every channel , for a hundred channels , you have to be able to to recognize industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: it 's not a lot one hundred templates , user interface: mm . well , i f i think it 's probably more than , than our can handle because it 's designed for a coffee machine , you know , to say hello in the morning . marketing: it 's not project manager: yeah . marketing: ah , it 's designed for a cof okay . is it design for a coffee machine ? user interface: well that 's its current application , i would presume that it 's kind of , they would n't design it to handle a hundred things th so . marketing: okay . yeah . maybe you could ask your the you could ask the engineering department if we can project manager: yeah . a good good good thing . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: you want to g to move to your slides ? user interface: but uh industrial designer: yeah , that 's right , yeah . project manager: you 're finished ? user interface: well i just i just made the point , i do n't i do n't know if that speech recognition is , you know , even if we can do it , i think it 's not really appropriate for uh television environment . project manager: yeah i think so . user interface: but um i did have one thing from a previous meeting , you were talking about um being able to find the remote control marketing: yeah . user interface: and i was talking about extendin being able to extend the remote control by having you know , a base station that can control other things as well . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: it might be useful to have some kind of base station , even if it 's just you press on a button on it and uh and the remote control starts beeping , you know , this is a way of finding the remote . project manager: mm . user interface: y in that case maybe the maybe the speech recognition the speech thing could be useful just to say i 'm here project manager: exactly yeah . user interface: but uh it 's probably a bit of overkill if you could just have a a beeping industrial designer: so it 's a speech synthesis kind of thing , user interface: it 's speech industrial designer: something has been uh stored and it 's just uh spoken out . user interface: it 's it 's speech synthesis and s it 's speech kind of , not really speech recognition , but kind of pattern matching , yeah industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: oh , good idea . industrial designer: yeah . that 's right . project manager: very good . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , let 's move on . so you 're two ? industrial designer: that 's right . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so this is going to be about the component design . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so first thing is we need power source for the remote control . so i was of the idea that we can have two kind of power supplies , one is the usual batteries which are there , they could be chargeable batteries if there 's a basis station kind of thing and on top of that we can have solar cells , when the lighting conditions are good they can be used so it 'll be pretty uh innovative kind . then uh we need plastic with some elasticity so that if your if the remote control falls it 's not broken directly into pieces , there should be some flexibility in t user interface: i guess that fits in with the spongy kind of design philosophy . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . so there should we should think of something like that and then it should be double curve . the s science for the ease of handling and there are some other issues why we need double curve . then controls for the traditionals u traditional users we can have the push buttons so that they do n't feel that it 's an alien thing for them . user interface: so , just one second , when you say double curve , what do you actually mean ? you reckon you could like draw us a thing on the , on the whiteboard 'cause i 'm not sure industrial designer: double curve is , you have curves on both the sides if i 'm right . so it 's symmetrical kind of thing , whatever it is . user interface: okay , but like , kind of convex or concave ? industrial designer: so , it could be curve , so it could be convex , conve concave , depending on what what we want . project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: user interface: okay . industrial designer: so there are flats , there are single curve and there are double curves . user interface: okay . industrial designer: these are the three things , and there are different materials , with plastic you can have double curve but with uh certain other materials we can not have double curve . so there there was uh there were many other materials like wood , titanium and all those things , but plastic is i think is the most appropriate one , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: it 'll bring the cost down user interface: although , you know , wood could be uh quite a stylish uh option , industrial designer: and anyway it 's user interface: if you take like , nice quality kind of wood that 's got a nice grain and you kind of put some , some varnish on . project manager: mm but i but there is no elasticity which could be industrial designer: wooden cases user interface: well it depends , i mean , you have the outs the wood itself is not gon na break so you do n't have to worry too much about the case being broken , project manager: yeah but the components inside . user interface: it 's the inside . yeah but inside you know you could have you can still have some kind of cushioning that 's not visible to the to the user . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: very too expensive to do . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . project manager: and also uh user interface: and i mean you could also , you can have just a very thin veneer of wood as well . project manager: yeah but it 's more easier to do a banana in plastic than uh in wood . user interface: that 's true , but are we set on the banana idea ? industrial designer: project manager: well it look like marketing: actually project manager: it looks like you are all targeting that marketing: i was thinking that the user interface: project manager: yeah ? marketing: the shape of a banana is not it 's not really handy . project manager: yes it is . marketing: uh i do n't know the name o o in english uh this industrial designer: is it an e apple which has marketing: it 's not a fruit it 's a vegetable . user interface: it 's like a pumpkin or project manager: yeah ? pumpkin . marketing: green . project manager: green . user interface: green . project manager: um um um , yes i see . user interface: what does it taste like ? marketing: and you put in the salad . project manager: pep pepperoni . user interface: ah yeah , marketing: um user interface: is it what 's it in french ? project manager: poivron . marketing: oui c'est ca user interface: yeah , okay , so capsicum or pepper . yeah . project manager: uh pepper . marketing: pepper . project manager: but um they do d marketing: and it 's al it also suits with the double curve for easy of project manager: yeah . user interface: i do n't know , it seems a little bit kind of bulky to me , like project manager: yeah . marketing: no , i mean in a project manager: it 's not re it user interface: like with a banana you can have project manager: you you think it 's really fancy and fun ? you think that young people that are marketing: i 'm sure it 's fun . project manager: yeah . more than a banana ? marketing: but banana is not so handy , user interface: well industrial designer: banana is more handier as compared to this i think , and to capsicum . marketing: i think that 's handier . user interface: but like a banana you can you can be holding like this and have the scroll wheel kind of on top project manager: yeah . user interface: and just roll it back and forth like that , project manager: it 's kind it 's kind of it 's more uh user interface: but with uh i do n't know how you would hold a capsicum and project manager: it 's really ergonomic , it 's fit in the hand and you 've a lot of surface to to put the controls . marketing: user interface: project manager: okay let 's move on . marketing: yeah you 're right . project manager: so time is running , let 's move on . industrial designer: okay , so push buttons for the traditional users so that they do n't feel they are alienated , just and a scroll button with push technology for channel selection , volume control and teletext browsing . these are the three scroll buttons which are already available with us in the company and we we can go ahead with that . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , we can go to the next slide . then uh there are different kind of chips , one one is the basic chip and the regular chip and one an adva advanced chip . so we can have regular chip for control . pricing is a factor for us , that 's why we 'll go for the regular chip . and uh regular chip supports speaker support , so this functionality could be used for tracing the mobile phone which has been misplaced . user interface: so is that , when you say speaker support , you mean it just has some output pinned which which which kind of industrial designer: it could be a beep kind of thing . user interface: okay , but the speaker is actually attached to the to the chip in some way , or is just the the signal ? industrial designer: yes , yes , that 's right , it 's it 's onto the chip , user interface: okay . industrial designer: most most probably , not not hundred per cent sure about that . user interface: okay . so are there any issues where we place this this chip to make sure you can actually hear the the speaker from the outside of the banana ? industrial designer: that will be the volume control i think which which a user shou it it should be already pre-defined . it should be whatever will be the case , the chip is always going to be sitting inside . user interface: okay . yeah , but the speaker , if the speaker is actually on the chip , then if it 's too far away from the the casing , or if the casing is too thick , then you may not hear the the speaker . industrial designer: mm-hmm . uh , so we can have it at one of the boundaries so that things are slightly better . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: as or as hearing is concerned , we can have some gap at some place , user interface: yeah . so that 's something we have to keep in mind with the actual physical design is to keep the the speaker close enough to the outside . industrial designer: so that that 's right . okay . yeah . so these these were the component selection and these things . we can go to the next slide . and uh these were the findings which i i saw with the web web , that user wants to have control more than one device wants to control more than one device from the same remote control , so our tv remote can have little extra things to support additional devices like v_c_r_ d_v_d_ players which are usually attached with the tv , because users are like this and they do n't want to have one remote control for everything , so with this additional little , we might be having slightly better market for us . user interface: although , if it depends , if we like , if we are concentrating on like a fruit design , then maybe maybe we wan na sell a collection of fruit , you know , like a different fruit for each device . industrial designer: mm . of fruits . user interface: cause that , you know , that sometimes people like to collect um you know things that of a similar type . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: s objects . industrial designer: remotes objects , okay . project manager: crazy objects . marketing: i think that would be funny at the beginning but after one month you will be tired of be surrounded of fruits . user interface: well , you 're the one who wanted to do fruit in the first place . marketing: no but i think just one fruit to control everything . user interface: like a power fruit . marketing: a power fr a power m a mando , a supermando fruit . user interface: project manager: industrial designer: and uh as well as i could see on the web the scroll button is becoming really uh hot thing s project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and we should have it on the remote . project manager: okay , good . user interface: well marketing: actually i i did n't understand very well this trace speaker lost control . industrial designer: so you 're having a basis station . okay . your usually your remote sits on that . so you and it 's that 's why it can have chargeable batteries . now let 's say marketing: so you you have to buy two things , the banana and the basis station . project manager: bu it 's it 's . industrial designer: basis station is with the thing . project manager: you s you you thing . industrial designer: it 's like a telephone handset is there and the basis station for the telephone hand set is there . so now what user gets additionally he does n't have to buy batteries , they 're rechargeable batteries , so over the period of cor time he 'll recover the cost . so you 're having the basis station and there is a button , if you press that button wherever the remote it 'll start beeping so you know where the remote is . uh user interface: i think that 's a pretty handy feature . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: i think it 's kind of people would find that worth it even if it was n't uh a recharging station , even if they did n't have to buy extra batteries , you know . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm , mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: so marketing: yeah but i 'm a bit worried about the budget . industrial designer: uh this is basis station is nothing more , just it 's a wire which is coming from the main cable and uh you 're having one socket on which the thing sits . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: although you do need to include r_f_ kind of circuitry in the remote . industrial designer: that 's right . but all these things are usually in-house so we do n't have much problems . project manager: industrial designer: so component cost is going to be the least . anyway , we are not using really advanced technology , lcd has already been ruled out , a_s_r_ has been ruled out . so it 's the basic thing but very trendy and very user-friendly . user interface: okay . i 'm just wondering actually , 'cause , you know , i this whole fruit thing with the banana , it 's um it seemed like it first seems a bit kind of uh niche , like only a few people would really want a banana , industrial designer: and user interface: but what if it was kind of uh a stylised banana ? you know , rather than having it kind of you know yellow and really looking exactly like a banana , you could make it kind of silver . and um , you know to give you kind of the idea of a banana but without it looking you know completely kitsch . for better want of a better word project manager: you think that yellow it 's kitsch . user interface: you know ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: well , you know , i don i do n't know how many peop industrial designer: marketing: project manager: if you make something that looks like a banana it should have the colour of a banana . marketing: yeah . no , i i industrial designer: a yeah , otherwise it 'll be mis means you do n't get b any feeling then . user interface: well they project manager: o otherwise marketing: maybe li like that . industrial designer: it 's neither a banana nor a user interface: yeah , like this colour this colour maybe , you know , maybe like still in the shape of a banana . project manager: roughly . user interface: no , exactly . project manager: marketing: user interface: exactly . um , but you know , just maybe maybe not exactly the same texture as a banana and just kind of , you know because the thing is it 's gon na be a little bit difficult to make um to give like the texture of a banana anyway and to k to have the exact shape . i think if you 're gon na not be able to do it properly you may as well do it in a stylised way that just looks a bit more kind of , you know , twenty first century rather than sixties or seventies . project manager: yeah . okay . let 's move on . industrial designer: and uh going to the last slide . project manager: uh uh yeah . before before st before ending the meeting i 'd like to to draw some sketch about the pro future prot prototype . user interface: okay . project manager: go for it . industrial designer: okay . project manager: well no , not not you , you can finish your slides before industrial designer: okay . okay , so . anyway , users 'll be so the findings is users 'll be very interested in our locator device to find their misplaced remotes . project manager: mm okay . industrial designer: so that was very i thought it 's a very good suggestion by everybody . project manager: okay . industrial designer: that 's it . project manager: that 's all ? industrial designer: yep . project manager: okay , so mm so well done for the presentations . so we need to take some de decisions about um about what we 're going to do . user interface: project manager: so i i propose that you go to the whiteboard user interface: yeah . project manager: and we 're going to report all the ideas we had we had during this these presentations just to draw some sketch about what will be the prod final product user interface: okay . project manager: and uh where superman go banana and uh user interface: project manager: uh extra func functionalities such as wheels , um the speaker unit um well not in order not to lost the um the device , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: i do i do n't remember you call it ? industrial designer: that 's right . the basis station . that 's right . project manager: basis station , yeah . uh so um so we 're going for a stylish banana shape . user interface: yeah , so , i guess you wan na hold like the way the end of the banana you wan na kind of hold as ma you maybe wan na kinda hold like a gun rather than 'cause you do n't want it to point kind of towards the floor . project manager: yeah , right . user interface: so you know , so if you have like marketing: what about what about this shape ? more or less . project manager: we industrial designer: there 's less space on this to put with the buttons . project manager: i if it i if it has really the model shape of a bana you could marketing: yeah , but how many buttons do we need ? project manager: the the starting is good but it could it should have more the shape of a banana if you want to point really a at the thing . if you do n't want to to to do that movement which is which is difficult if you do n't have to do it in fact , it 's better . so ti time is running , industrial designer: uh what about a project manager: we have to we have to we have to to move forward . so let 's skip to uh this uh this this this idea . yeah . user interface: okay , so project manager: so we have this . user interface: so project manager: we have a a basis um , how do you call it ? industrial designer: the base station . project manager: a base station . industrial designer: right . project manager: we 'll have a base station extra uh on the side . user interface: okay , so i guess we need , you know , something that can fit a banana shaped object . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: uh , we have a r_f_ for um for beeping for beeping . industrial designer: that 's right , yeah , we need that , yeah . project manager: we need b r_f_ to beep . user interface: okay , so it 's uh project manager: so we that means we need a button on th on the on the basis . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: basis station . project manager: basis station , thank you . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: alright , so we need uh okay . project manager: can you go quickly please ? user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . so we are going to add uh also um you as you suggested the whee some wheels to control the volumes and channels and your tur turbo turbo uh button . user interface: yeah . yeah , which i think it 's it 's probably best actually on the on the underneath of the the device , industrial designer: turbo button . project manager: yeah , on the th yeah , maybe here . user interface: so you have project manager: and the and the wheel a a at the level of the thumb for instance . user interface: yes . yeah , so you have the thumb kind of here . project manager: and and you have two wheels . user interface: so yeah , you need one one here and one on on the other side , so you got volume an and channel . project manager: okay right . good . so no lcd . user interface: and , uh no lcd . project manager: okay great . um . very good . user interface: oh we need a we need a power um on off switch as well . industrial designer: okay . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: uh for the remote ? user interface: yeah . project manager: oh , just the switch , industrial designer: remotes do n't have power on off switch . project manager: no f not for the tv for the tv . uh so you user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . s no , that 'll be controlled by the those buttons 'll be there already , yeah . marketing: what a user interface: where ? industrial designer: means on the remote . project manager: on the side . user interface: okay . industrial designer: because remote is going to have both the interfaces , scroll as well as buttons . they are not going to cost you much , everything is in-house and now you do n't want the traditional users to be apprehensive of this . user interface: well , i dunno if the traditional user is gon na buy a a banana remote in the first place , you know . industrial designer: oh , yeah . that 's that 's another issue which i did n't think of . user interface: y i mean you need to kind of keep it um industrial designer: but you know our targets are very high , means fifty million euros is the profit which we want make . marketing: what about user interface: yeah , how many of these did we wan na sell ? i ca n't remember , industrial designer: twenty five . project manager: twenty five . industrial designer: twelve point five is the profit on one . marketing: user interface: yeah , but how many units did we need to to sell ? industrial designer: uh forty th four . point point four million ? marketing: four millions ? user interface: four point four million . industrial designer: point four million . user interface: that 's a lot of fruit . industrial designer: in the market . user interface: marketing: what about a project manager: yeah . so . well . no . time is running , we have to close the meeting in a few minutes . user interface: okay . project manager: so , okay , the next step , you can come back to your seat . user interface: okay . project manager: the next step is to go for to f is to go to uh to building a prototype , based on this , okay ? user interface: okay . project manager: so next meeting you guys have to prepare the followi things . you have to uh work on the look and feel uh design and you have to work on the user interface , in fact you two you have to work together to model the first uh f first prototype . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: uh marketing expert uh have to go to product evaluation . user interface: project manager: okay ? marketing: i wo what about adding the this word spotting , keyword spotting recognition saying volume up volume down ? project manager: it 's too difficult . marketing: it 's too difficult but people like innovation and that 's really uh innovative and i do n't know if it would cost a lot , just a few five words . project manager: it 's not a possi it will not be possible to implement it for the next prototype , so t it 's in the next prototype so let 's skip it . user interface: uh . marketing: okay . industrial designer: for the future prototypes . project manager: yeah , maybe , for the n if if if it it works well , we 'll go for uh an orange one . user interface: that can be the t that can be like the turbo banana plus plus commando . industrial designer: project manager: yeah yeah , honour the fruit . marketing: plus plus , okay . maybe objective banana ? project manager: okay . user interface: project manager: thanks very much . we 'll see n next meeting . bye . user interface: okay . industrial designer: so meeting 's over ? user interface: yep . we have to go design the prototype . industrial designer: okay . okay . okay . thank you . project manager: thank you . marketing: thank you . industrial designer: the problem is after all this meeting there is { gap }

the group decided on the final prototype features to include extra functionalities such as scroll wheels , the speaker , and the base station that could fit a banana-shaped object . the group also agreed to need an rf to beep , wheels to control the volumes and channels , turbo button , and switch-on button . besides , the group confirmed no lcd and asr for the remote control .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: good morning , again . industrial designer: one question . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: send . user interface: choose a number ? industrial designer: submit . marketing: yep yep yep yep . project manager: all set ? industrial designer: mm . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: good . okay . let 's see what we can find here . okay . a very warm welcome again to everyone . user interface: project manager: um here we are already at our uh functional design meeting . um and this is what we are going to do . the opening , which we are doing now , um and the special note , i 'm project manager but on the meetings i 'm also the secretary , which means i will make uh minutes as i did of the previous meeting . industrial designer: project manager: and uh i also put these as fast as possible in the uh project folder , so you can see them and review what we have discussed . um if i 'm right , there are three presentations , i guess each one of you has prepared one ? good . user interface: yes . project manager: and um we will also take a look at new project requirements , um if you have n't heard about them yet . and then of course we have to take a decision on the remote control functions and we have some more time , forty minutes . but i think we will need it . um well i do n't know who wants to go first with his presentation . industrial designer: i 'll go first . okay . i 'll go first yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: you can go first , okay . user interface: well . marketing: well , shall i go first with the users ? user interface: well marketing: i think well okay no problem . project manager: is there an order ? i have n't user interface: everybody already has his presentation , marketing: ja precies , ja precies , ja precies user interface: so you can adjust it . industrial designer: so . huh ? okay , um project manager: and one question , uh your name denni , is it with a marketing: e_i_e_ . project manager: i_e_ e_i_e_ , okay . thank you . user interface: industrial designer: okay , um i wanted to explain the working design of the remote control . it 's possibly very handy if you want to uh design one of those . um well so it basically works uh as i uh uh r wrote down uh in this uh little uh summary . uh when you press a button , uh that 's when you do pr for example when you uh want to turn up the volume , um a little connection is made uh the the rubber uh button just presses on a project manager: sorry . marketing: user interface: industrial designer: on a little print plate uh which uh makes uh uh a connection that uh gives the chips , uh which is uh mounted beneath those uh that plastic of a rubber button . uh senses that a connection has been made , and know and knows what button you pressed , becau uh for example the the volume up or volume down button . um uh the the chip uh makes a morse code uh like uh signal which uh then is si uh signalled to uh several transistors which makes uh which sends the signal to a little let . you know what a let is ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . and that makes uh the the infra-red lights signal which is sent to the television set . uh which has a sensor in it to uh sense uh the signal of the infra-red . that 's basically uh how it works . um the findings uh uh that i found uh searching up some uh detailed information about the remote controls , are that uh they are very easy to produce , uh it is pis uh it 's possible to uh make them in mass production because it is as eas it is as easy as uh printing a page , uh just uh fibreglass plate um is b uh is uh covered with uh some uh coatings and uh uh and chips . user interface: industrial designer: uh and the technology 's already available , we do n't have to find out how remote controls uh have to work or uh how that how uh to make some chips that are possible to uh to to transmit those uh signals . uh i made a little uh uh animation of about how a tran our uh remote controller works . user interface: marketing: user interface: oh right . marketing: animation . user interface: industrial designer: we tel user interface: there is something turning . industrial designer: there . project manager: yeah , it 's a little bug it 's in the in the smart board . industrial designer: okay . uh well user interface: industrial designer: the sub-component , i suppose that you understand what a sub-component is , is f in this example it 's the button . uh when it is pressed down , um , the switch is ter is uh is switched on , so with uh the wire is sent to the to the chip in uh co-operation with the battery of course , because to make uh a a signal possible you have to have some sort of uh li uh a d ad uh electronic uh user interface: marketing: infrared light . industrial designer: yes , uh , okay . um w after it 's being composed by the chip uh the signal uh is transported uh to the infra-red bulb , and from there it signals a morse code-like signal to the to the b to the bulb in uh in the television set . okay . s uh i wrote down some personal preferences about uh the remote control . of course it is very handy if the remote control is hand held , so you do n't have to uh uh wind it up or something , or just is it 's it 's very light to uh to make uh to use it . uh i personally uh pref prefer that uh it would be p uh come available in the various colours , and uh easy to use buttons . but i suppose that the one of the other team members uh uh thought of that uh too . user interface: yeah , i 've got it there too . industrial designer: and it is possible for several designs and um easy to use b uh sorry , easy to use buttons . perhaps soft touch , uh touch screen uh buttons because uh the rubber buttons are always uh uh they uh slightly uh they can be slightly damaged , marketing: industrial designer: uh so the numbers on the buttons are not possible uh to read anymore . and uh well as i said uh before th uh we can uh make several designs . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay , well , that 's my contribution to this meeting , and uh marketing: to this meeting . project manager: okay , thank you . user interface: industrial designer: two of these this meeting . so . user interface: shall i go uh next ? project manager: yep . user interface: 'kay . project manager: please . user interface: so . marketing: smoking . user interface: well uh , my name 's , and i looked at uh technical functions design of the remote . uh i did this by uh looking at examples of other remote controls , of how they uh they look , and information from the web that i found . um well what i found was that uh th the actual use of the remote control is to send messages to television set , how you uh d what you described uh just early . and this can be all sorts of medsa messages , turn it on , turn it off , uh change the channel , adjust volume , that kind of thing . uh play video , teletext , but also t uh play c_d_ if you use it your c_d_ player the remote control will that one . there are some uh examples of remote controls . you can see they are very different . the one has got all the functions that you could possibly need and an lot of uh buttons etcetera . and the other is uh more user friendly , little with big buttons . and uh not n all the the the the stuff you can do with it , but uh the the essential stuff is there . um i guess you could better y you should look at a a user centred uh approach , because the customers have to use them and and if they do n't think it 's usable they wo n't uh buy it . a lot of buttons they may think from i do n't need s as much as that . uh , well perf personal preferences is is uh a simple remote , with uh the basic functions that you can need that you could use . but uh keep in mind the new functions of tv what we discussed earlier , split screen and uh is that a function that you should have ? because all the tvs will have them . or because of only a few and is n't really necessary . and then uh make it i would make so that you can could uh use it on more than one appliance . if you have one that uh uh does with the vi the the video , it could also work with uh with the stereo , because play is play and stop stop and that sort of thing . the shu c you could reuse the buttons so that you do n't have to have a lot of buttons for uh anything . and it should be a user friendly , clear buttons , and not too much . and that is my presentation . project manager: okay , thank you . industrial designer: okay . marketing: 'kay . check . industrial designer: user interface: you must still have it open . marketing: kijke 'kay , so . we 're going to j discuss the functional requirements of the remote , that m that means that functions user n want to have on the remote control , or just yeah , and the users , actually . industrial designer: marketing: the methods i i prefer is we 're going to look which section of the users we are going to focus a l on more . are the younger people going to buy the remote control or the elderly people ? and then tho that section we 're going to focus and adjust the remote more to that section than the whole user section . okay . some data . younger people , from sixteen to thir forty five um years are more interested in fj features like lcd screens , speech recognition e etcetera . and we possess about two third of the market from in that range of age . the elderly people , from forty five years to sixty five years are not that much interested in features , and we possess less than two third , that 's two fifth , of the market share in that area . goed so . project manager: industrial designer: hmm . marketing: 'kay . findings . fifty percent of the users lose their remote often . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: so we do n't have to make it very small , like uh like a mobile phone or something , but some somewhat bi bigger than small , so you do n't lose it that much anymore . seventy five percent of the users also find it ugly , industrial designer: mm . marketing: and fif seventy five of the users zap a lot , so the buttons sh should be that small , or should n't be that complex because we have to search for the buttons , which one are you going to use . next . important issues about the remote . i think it would be better with a personal reference , but okay . remote control has to have to have a low power usage , because s w seventy five percent of the users only zap one time an hour , so the power usage is also one one time an hour , or so , with a high power usage we would use a lot of but batteries . the volume button and the channel buttons are the two most important buttons on the remote control , so those they those have to h be find very easily . and have to be somewhat like bigger etcetera . it has also be have to find easily when the label is gone . my colleague also announced it that labels should be scratched off industrial designer: mm . user interface: hmm . marketing: or would be s uh senden user interface: marketing: okay . so uh if that 's k uh if that 's the problem , you also have to find it easily on the remote . buttons . like what all colleagues said , have to have to be minimalized . or should be covered , or in lcd screen . lcd screen is easy because we have the lcd screen , we have the various options . put one option and then you have the all the buttons of that options , so the other options would be gone . and you do n't see the buttons . so lcd screens should be easy , but an lcd screen , the problem with the l_ sc lcd screen is that elderly people fr from forty five to for sixty five years do n't use the lcd screen a lot . so we have to that keep that in mind that if you 're going to implement lcd screen , you do n't have to make it that hard to learn or to use . industrial designer: uh lcd screen as in uh touch screen ? marketing: yeah , touch screen , yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: the last but not least , younger people are more critical about the features . because they use the remote control often more often , and are more technical than the ol older people . and the older people spend more money , and easily on a remote control . user interface: mm . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: so we have to keep in mind to to focus not a lot not that much on the younger pep younger people , but also somewhat on the elderly people . and on my personal preferences , i do n't have any mo more time to come with that , user interface: marketing: but like i said , lcd screen is easily to use industrial designer: marketing: because you have you can implement a lot of buttons in one remote with not that much buttons . and it should be easy to use . especially the volume buttons , the channel buttes buttons and the number buttons to zap through the channels . and that is it . project manager: okay , industrial designer: okay . project manager: thank you . user interface: oh right . project manager: um , well thank you all , huh . i dunno uh did everyone receive an email with uh the new project requirements ? user interface: no . res i did not . project manager: no ? well , user interface: perhaps the rest ? industrial designer: no . project manager: then i think it 's a good thing that i made a separate slide of them marketing: ja , project manager: so you can all read them . oh , well not in this presentation . hmm user interface: project manager: should be in there . well , i can tell you them uh from my laptop . um teletext does has become outdated since the popularity of the internet . user interface: oh . mm . project manager: so that 's uh the first thing we i think we should pay less attention to uh teletext . uh the remote control should only be used for the television , otherwise the project becomes more complex , which endangers the time to market , and of course would make it more costly , i think . um our current customers are within the age group of forty plus , and new product should reach a new market with customers that are younger than forty , and you talked about that before . and uh a last point , but also very important , our corporate image should stay recognisable in our products , which means that our uh corporate colour and slogan must be implemented in the new design . so we have to keep that in mind . um well uh according to our agenda it 's then time to take a decision on the remote control functions . so , who has any idea about what should be on it , and what should n't ? user interface: well you said it should only uh work with one appliance ? marketing: be television . user interface: or with one uh d che only the tv ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . only be used for television . user interface: and the video also , or not uh ? project manager: well it says only for television here , huh . marketing: only the television . user interface: oh . alright . okay . project manager: makes it a lot easier , huh ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm . marketing: so yeah , then you can yeah . requirements , no ? functions . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then it should have uh on , off , industrial designer: yeah for user interface: and uh industrial designer: standby options , marketing: yeah , the basics then by a volume , channel , one till two zero numbers on it , industrial designer: yeah ? uh yeah . user interface: yeah . and per perhaps uh marketing: oh teletext does n't have to be ? user interface: no . marketing: um other functions . user interface: well uh uh yes yes s sh a button where you can uh change from one number to two numbers . marketing: yeah i had industrial designer: two s two two digits , marketing: yeah , yeah . user interface: can you industrial designer: oh okay . user interface: do n't know if that 's got a name , industrial designer: yeah i understand what you mean . yeah . user interface: but marketing: i think it 's i think it 's easy to implement a button with a s s what which especially do that , because some tvs , if you press the t one and then the two , it be between five secs it make twelve , industrial designer: it makes it twelve , yeah . user interface: yeah . s industrial designer: indeed . okay . marketing: and that 's that 's not relaxed industrial designer: well , not really marketing: to user . industrial designer: and and there are some models that do n't uh accommodate that function . so marketing: yeah . industrial designer: d uh wh the philip 's television makes it possible in that indeed to uh press one and then two to make uh the uh tj to reach channel twelve . marketing: so that it easy and fast . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but uh all the television makes uh use of those button where you first press that button and then press two digits to uh to get marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah , so you should have that one on . industrial designer: uh yeah , think so . marketing: our main targets ' age are ? were ? forty five plus , or ? user interface: mute misschien also . project manager: uh well industrial designer: mm . project manager: new product should reach a market with customers that are younger than forty , and now we have current customers uh of forty plus . marketing: forties , okay because because younger people as uh younger people have now , sixteen till to twenty five age , are f eighty one percent interested in lcd screen . from twenty six to thirty five have sixty six percent , and thirty six to forty five , fifty five percent , so i think to um because on most recog remote controls um the print plate will be broken how much , two years . you have to press h very hard to go to the next channel . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: with the lcd screen it 's easier because you only have to wipe the screen to uh for fingerprint , industrial designer: yeah , we we could yeah . but i think that uh that collides with our mission to make it very cheap . marketing: and then you can use it again . industrial designer: because lcd screens are very expensive . marketing: yeah , okay . user interface: an industrial designer: a touch screen uh probably uh even more . marketing: yeah but a you do n't know industrial designer: so , marketing: true . industrial designer: true , true . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: but uh well um is it possible to make an lcd screen uh , how was the information ? marketing: yeah , it only says that this perce percentage like lcd screen . because , yeah and it says that younger age between sixteen and forty five highly interesting features more critical . industrial designer: so perhaps we should we should focus on that lcd screen . marketing: and if the only f yeah , because our target is sixteen to forty five . user interface: but , do you industrial designer: yeah but uh will we not uh exceed our uh our uh production uh marketing: yeah you do n't know how much it costs . yeah , you do n't know how much it costs , the lcd screen . industrial designer: is it possible to find out , anyway ? marketing: no , i do n't have any costs here , industrial designer: you know ? marketing: i only have percentages . user interface: but if you would do an lcd screen do we have don do n't you have any buttons ? or because if it only directs at the tv , then you only have uh i do n't know what you want to do with the lcd screen . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: no , an lcd screen 's just like uh like a drawn here . um just uh displays several buttons , user interface: yeah ? industrial designer: for example um if you wanted the minimal uh use b uh buttons , such as channel and volume , you just h uh displays four buttons on the screen user interface: oh right , so you can industrial designer: and it 's possible to p uh press them down , just like a touch screen . user interface: oh , yeah alright . so you can adjust which buttons you want on that s screen . industrial designer: yeah , we can make it possible to do that , yeah . marketing: yeah , if you want to adjust , like for example , adjust the audio settings , you press audio on the touchscreen industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: and you get the buttons for audio settings , user interface: yeah alright , oh right . marketing: so the other buttons are gone . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: so we 're going for an lcd screen ? user interface: yeah . would be yeah . marketing: i think it 's the most easier thing , industrial designer: that 's my uh project manager: and hoping that when we produce a lot it wo n't be too expensive . marketing: yeah . user interface: well we had twelve fifty , i guess , for uh production ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: no . yeah . industrial designer: twelve fifty . marketing: industrial designer: um . user interface: any guesses ? industrial designer: marketing: industrial designer: well i suppose wi if the mar if our um if the i if the young people are interested in lcd screens , we should make 'em . marketing: highly . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and if that is our d uh market share to uh and our goal to uh deliver those uh remote controls user interface: but but he also said that we should not only focus on the younger people , but also on the older , and will they use it if it only has an lcd screen ? marketing: yeah , but um , s forty six to forty five , thirty three percent , and sixty fifty six to sixty five twelve percent . user interface: oh , so still a little bit people marketing: but our our our what 's it , project requirements are the new products should be reached for new markets , to customers that are younger than forty . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah that 's right . but you do n't want to alienate the other uh marketing: no , that not now , but , so user interface: but if they also buy it then it 's alright . i guess . marketing: yeah , but market share fro for for forty years and younger is higher than that of sixty five and younger . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . alright . project manager: okay , so lcd it is ? user interface: an yes . project manager: okay . industrial designer: mm . it 's treasure . project manager: and what else ? industrial designer: i hope we uh h and let 's hope to reach those uh those sales . marketing: yeah , i i if it yeah , if it costs gets too much , too expensive , then yeah , we should be sticking to rubber buttons . project manager: user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , can you um uh s i think that that they will send you some information about uh the cost of lcd uh screens . user interface: yeah . marketing: n nothing , no costs at all . user interface: but perhaps later , industrial designer: uh so if you uh user interface: so uh industrial designer: yeah , so if you uh you receive an email about that , uh can you post it in the or should n't we post that in uh our projects mail uh folder . marketing: yeah , in user interface: yeah . marketing: i think that should yeah i think we all get the costs of everything . user interface: i do n't industrial designer: because you are the the marketing uh expert . marketing: yeah , okay , i 'll i 'll post it . industrial designer: i uh user interface: well perhaps we should have a backup plan that we would use buttons if it 's uh too expensive . industrial designer: yeah sure , sure . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , okay . but for now it 's lcd . okay . marketing: okay , lcd , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: then you have the seventy five percent of users find it r ugly . industrial designer: user interface: the lcd ? oh that 's a bit of a problem . marketing: yeah , and eighty percent of the users would spend more money with a when a remote would look fancy . user interface: oh , that 's a bit of a problem . industrial designer: mm . marketing: tha i l i it 'll look fancy with lcd screen . yeah . industrial designer: it 's looks fancy one yeah , of lcd screen . user interface: yeah , but they do n't they do n't like it . project manager: yeah . user interface: they think it 's ugly . when it has an lcd screen . marketing: yeah , just a the plain remotes , not not specific lcd remotes . user interface: oh , alright , i thought that you said that . project manager: yeah , and maybe you can make something fancy out of an lcd remote , marketing: so project manager: because it 's new , as far as i know . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: industrial designer: mm yeah . marketing: yeah , of course . industrial designer: and then not yeah . marketing: and then you have the other thing , that seventy five percent zap a lot , but that 's not a f question with the lcd screen . industrial designer: um . yeah . marketing: only thing you have to do is wipe the screen off once each time , to get all the fingerprints off it . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm . okay ? project manager: okay , what else does our remote need ? user interface: a mute button . marketing: um project manager: mute button . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i think . and marketing: the most important things on a f on an on an uh remote control are channel selection , volume con selection , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and power s power usage . user interface: yeah . marketing: and a teletext , but that is not of the question . user interface: but but should n't you put a button of for teletext on the for the people who want to use it ? marketing: other things are sorry ? user interface: remembering we have got a big remote that you have to fill . marketing: yeah , it could be . yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . yeah , and we could make an a a separate menu on the lcd uh screen for teletext . marketing: yeah , teletext . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and there 's also a marketing: and other other less important things are screen settings , audio settings , and channel settings , user interface: yeah , they are less important , but i think they should be there , marketing: less important . user interface: or not ? marketing: yeah , should be there , industrial designer: a sh marketing: but not press industrial designer: but in a sub sub-menu or something like that . marketing: yeah , sub-menu , yeah . industrial designer: uh i think it 's also important to uh make it possible to um how do you call it in english , uh , to not use batteries , and use ac uh bat uh batteries to uh to be project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: like with a with a mouse , you have not , yeah . industrial designer: yeah yeah sure . indeed . so uh you can mount uh the the the uh marketing: yeah , in a breath it 's industrial designer: uh the remote control to um project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: charted . user interface: we should think of the twelve fifty we have industrial designer: to refill the user interface: but marketing: yeah , user interface: i do n't know how much that 's going to uh marketing: but we do n't we do n't have any costs now , industrial designer: yeah . okay , marketing: so yeah . industrial designer: because i uh when you get an lcd screen , you run it on batteries , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: the batteries will be uh empty very soon , very fast . marketing: yeah e e power supply is one of the most important things . user interface: you should perhaps you should be able to to switch the control off . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: if you have an lcd screen that 's burns all the time i dunno . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . yeah . user interface: you should n't on and off because that 's ver extra , that you have t first you have to turn the remote on , and then you can uh project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: i do n't know . industrial designer: uh marketing: yeah , i think it 's it 's not that easy because i do n't think people will like it who who uh that you have to turn it on first and then use it , user interface: nee that 's that 's uh yeah . marketing: so i think it 's better when th the tv shuts down , the remote shuts down . user interface: but then you ca n't industrial designer: and go to standby mode when you do n't use it , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so that marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah yeah au automac matically , that it yeah . industrial designer: yeah , automatically . after two minutes or three minutes , something like that . marketing: yeah . after two minutes , yeah two three minutes , yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . and maybe a low battery indicator ? on the screen . industrial designer: yeah . sure . project manager: marketing: yeah . user interface: marketing: and then b that uh industrial designer: marketing: before an hour when its get again gets empty . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: then you have plenty of time to recharge it , industrial designer: mm . marketing: of put it in a recharger . charger . project manager: so we are going for the for the recharger . user interface: project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , if it 's . uh . user interface: if it 's sensible . marketing: yeah , because when you 're watching tv , you 're zapping and you have to put it in a recharger , user interface: yeah . yeah , b when the batteries are low industrial designer: no , marketing: and i do n't think it industrial designer: when you when you 're done with s uh w uh watching your television , you have to put it marketing: yeah , okay , but then we have to be sure that the the the the batteries go hours , six hours , five , six hours , then . user interface: but you 'll also forget to put it in , industrial designer: yeah sure , of course . user interface: because you throw it on the couch industrial designer: yeah , marketing: yeah , industrial designer: but marketing: then you have a problem . user interface: and you do n't remember . industrial designer: but you also forget to buy batteries , user interface: yeah . that 's right . industrial designer: and then you can you ca n't use it , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so i marketing: or we have to be sure that the batteries last couple of days when they 're recharged . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: well i think the batteries should should w should work a lot longer than a couple of days , marketing: so . user interface: or not ? marketing: yeah because you have b user interface: 'cause marketing: but you have lcd screen . user interface: yeah , that 's right , but marketing: high power usage . industrial designer: high power user cell , i uh it should be uh a standard move to to put your remote control in the charger when you 're done watching television , marketing: yes . industrial designer: that 's also a a a great advantage because you ca n't lose it anymore . because you are obliged to uh put it in the charger and not to uh leave it in a couch uh between some cushions . marketing: true . yeah . yeah . true . user interface: yeah . right . industrial designer: okay . marketing: yeah , you made a point there . user interface: but then you also have to s have somewhere where you can put a remo recharger near your couch project manager: yeah , also . user interface: because otherwise you have to walk a long way when you twoft want to turn on the tv . marketing: yeah , otherwise all your yeah . just a small device . user interface: yeah . i think everything has it for and i guess . industrial designer: yeah it has n't it does n't have to be big . marketing: plug it in , that 's it . yeah , like a like telephone charger or something . industrial designer: yeah just just a cable , or a even a a a a a charger where you can mount it on . something like that , marketing: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: just u user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . user interface: alright . project manager: okay , well i 've marketing: it has to be easy to use also , or things . uh market share , speaker re speech recognition . project manager: yeah , you have some more user interface: project manager: points . industrial designer: functional designs uh for the elderly uh you could make it possible to enlarge the screen , marketing: i think . industrial designer: so make it possible to not uh display uh a button at ten points marketing: also . industrial designer: uh , or marketing: well i think that this should be standard . large button large buttons . industrial designer: yeah but it is uh one of the functions you have to uh specify . marketing: yeah ? okay . industrial designer: because we can look at uh uh perhaps uh forty buttons at a screen , but the elderly only look at two buttons . project manager: marketing: industrial designer: okay . marketing: . project manager: and you said something about speech recognition ? marketing: yeah , industrial designer: speech recognition ? marketing: it says also industrial designer: hello . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , industrial designer: twelve euro user interface: twelve fifty , twelve fifty . industrial designer: twelve euro fifty . marketing: twelve . that 's an also ninety one percent sixteen to twenty five , twenty six to thirty five years , seventy six percent , and thirty six to forty five , thirty five percent . user interface: so it 's pretty big . industrial designer: well , spread it by a big market . marketing: but then i i i project manager: even bigger than for lcd . user interface: yeah . w i know let 's do a speech . industrial designer: well marketing: yeah . industrial designer: let 's leave out all the remote controls and just put a microphone on top of the television to user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah . ninety . twenty five . user interface: you can clap or something . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: channel . industrial designer: turn volume up . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: hey , that that 's an idea . marketing: user interface: now you should n't say the wrong thing , i dunno . industrial designer: okay , well marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that should it has to be remote control , not marketing: yeah , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: twelve . user interface: but they want to talk into the remo remote control , or something , industrial designer: sure why not why not marketing: yeah . user interface: or ? marketing: is this only would you would you pay more for speech recognition in a remote control . it 's the only thing it says . industrial designer: yeah , mm . user interface: oh , but do we want to implement that , or ? marketing: i think an lcd screen should be suf sufficient . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: but when you look at the percentages marketing: yeah , it says a lot , but project manager: speech recognition scores even higher , huh ? industrial designer: perhaps the options should be uh why not ? user interface: project manager: yeah , well , industrial designer: why not ? project manager: maybe because of the cost , but uh nobody knows uh how much uh it will cost uh . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: let 's hope uh to have some uh d user interface: i know marketing: no i think i think it 's better to have l_ lcd screen , because in the area of tw thirty six to forty five , we have about thirty percent of the market share in in our hands , and fifty five of those people want lcd screen and thirty five want speech recognition . so i think it 's better to keep it with lcd screen . project manager: but would it be useful to imple implement both ? user interface: mm . project manager: on one remote ? marketing: yeah , if the costs al allow it . project manager: or user interface: well project manager: yeah , i dunno . user interface: i do n't know if that can be done with the cost of twelve fifty . marketing: nee . user interface: with that uh marketing: if it should be done , if it could be done , i wo n't matter . yeah . user interface: yeah , industrial designer: we should do it . yeah . sure . user interface: but how would you like to implement that , that you say volume up , and then it goes up , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: or ? marketing: yeah . user interface: uh . industrial designer: certain systems already exist , i think . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: then you also have to have different languages if we go international . then uh it 's y it 's yours to do a french and dutch and english marketing: true . industrial designer: true , yeah . marketing: yeah . true . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but that should also be with f should be also with lcd screen . industrial designer: this should be uh accommodated with some software , uh , uh . yeah . marketing: because then i think in chinese is different written , volume is different written than um swahili or something . user interface: yeah , that 's right . yeah . industrial designer: right . swahili . swahili . user interface: yeah you can use icons for the industrial designer: yeah . user interface: a speaker and uh marketing: ja , well possible . industrial designer: indeed . user interface: but if that 's better than language for the for the remote . marketing: yeah , yeah yeah yeah industrial designer: yeah . so we want to uh yeah it 's international uh okay . user interface: then it 's yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: 'kay , what else ? project manager: so , no speech recognition ? or user interface: well , if it could be done , we marketing: yeah , industrial designer: y it should be done . if it could be done , should be done . marketing: we have to keep yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , and then we have different languages . user interface: yeah , that should be uh anything matters . industrial designer: that 's not so difficult at all , project manager: okay , just make a separate remote for each uh industrial designer: because i already use on several voice operated systems , and they are all possible to uh not all , but user interface: well , you sh you should to adjust the thing . marketing: i think it 's difficult . every language of dialects user interface: yeah . marketing: i think it 's very differen difficult . user interface: and you have to speak the so that it can understand . marketing: yeah . i think it ca n't be implemented , but maybe user interface: you could use that n as an option , if you have money left , or something . marketing: yeah , 's an option , yes . industrial designer: yeah , sure , indeed . marketing: fifty euro cents . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: user interface: let 's do speech . industrial designer: for speech recognition . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , so we only do this when we have enough money left . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . well i 've written down an an on or off button , volume selection , channel selection , uh the digits from one to zero , huh . um or from zero to nine . uh a digits button to switch uh between one and two digits , mute button , a separate menu for teletext , a battery indicator . um we 're going to use a docking station and uh probably lcd and if there 's enough money , speech recognition . and uh the possibility to uh enlarge buttons or to have large buttons user interface: mm . yeah . marketing: mm , yes . project manager: in general . user interface: i with uh teletext if it was n't ver very important , it was but marketing: no , but user interface: you also now have colours . i do n't know if we should implement that . yeah , marketing: curved ? user interface: when you press the red button , you go to page one hundred two , and when you press the industrial designer: uh yeah . user interface: i do n't know if we should implement that , marketing: um . user interface: because it says that teletext not really important , industrial designer: s shortcuts . uh . user interface: but yeah , the shortcut , and you ca n't go to sport . marketing: i think we should we could that we could also implement a audio settings , screen settings and channel settings , but as sub-menus . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm . marketing: d mainly if you turn the uh remote control on , you have to u you have to see from one till zero , channel and volume . and if you want to use teletext screen or audio , then you can press it . industrial designer: sh yeah , just just sub-menu . yeah . marketing: it should be available but not user interface: 'cause it should be there . industrial designer: not directly uh available . marketing: not yeah . yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: okay , so not too much teletext support , but in a separate menu , and industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah . user interface: so actually it is there but it 's just not r ready there . marketing: yeah , but s industrial designer: directly available . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so does it confuse uh the user ? user interface: you 'll have to search for it . marketing: they 'd have to be easy to use . industrial designer: uh . i 'll search um . user interface: industrial designer: if you want to use teletext , you can push the teletext button and then the options uh become available . user interface: yeah . yeah , that 's a marketing: the sign of it . project manager: okay , but no more buttons or functions , or ? user interface: i guess not . industrial designer: no . marketing: uh , no . what else can you do with a television ? user interface: we 've got anon project manager: are n't we forgetting something very important ? user interface: have got got two examples here , but i do n't think there 's anything we 're missing . marketing: uh play , pause , does n't n need to be there . user interface: well , we do n't have the video orders marketing: yes , so this is your presentation . we could check the other remote controls with technical functions . user interface: yeah , you could look here all the the marketing: which ones were yours ? user interface: uh th th th th i do n't know , technical functions . marketing: techni user interface: they 're a bit small , you can we should stretch them , because project manager: ping . marketing: ja ja ja ja ja . technical functions . yeah okay . user interface: i guess we 've got them all . marketing: uh i think i go to have volume , mute but i yeah . very slow . yeah , the zoom buttons . user interface: and for a tv ? can you zoom in a tv ? marketing: yeah , b wide screen , high screen , different things you have , user interface: or that you can put 'em on uh on on wide and marketing: yeah different uh user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: but that should also be a sub then , a sub uh menu thing . industrial designer: menu . marketing: yeah it should be available , but then in separate screen settings or something . user interface: yeah , so we should also implement se screen settings . industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah , screen settings , audio settings , teletext settings you have . user interface: oh right . yeah . marketing: channel settings . user interface: yeah , so you can program the marketing: so those four , and of course the main . user interface: yeah , so the first you see the main , and the other ones you can uh go to uh marketing: yeah . yeah . like tap screens or something user interface: yeah . marketing: or , i dunno . user interface: i hope we can do this . marketing: something industrial designer: there are a lot of options depending uh on what kind of television you got . marketing: yeah , if uh industrial designer: 'cause if you do n't got a wide screen television you do n't need the uh the screen settings marketing: no , you do n't yu a no you then you do n't no ni do n't industrial designer: uh for uh marketing: then you do n't use it . industrial designer: yeah and if the television does not support such uh operations marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we do n't have to use that top . yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so you leave it alone . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . or it could be possible to have a a standard version of the remote , an expanded version . user interface: yeah . and do we want them in different colours , or marketing: yeah . user interface: and and the buttons , should they have colours ? marketing: colours . yeah . industrial designer: colours i think the main colour of the remote control is uh the colour of the lcd screen . user interface: oh but we do n't have any buttons . yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i because we do n't want a lot a devi yeah a device self s g marketing: yeah , then defines itself . because uh how many percent ? eighty percent ? user interface: they think it 's ugly , right ? marketing: would spend more money if it looks fancy . industrial designer: okay , so use uh very uh lot of peo user interface: perhaps you can uh make adjustable fronts , like with the telephones . industrial designer: adjust with phones , yes user interface: you can uh but i do n't think that uh industrial designer: okay . twelve euro fifty . well , make it available in different colours , you mean ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: sure . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: red , white , blue , black . user interface: project manager: and a see-through uh marketing: rasta colours . industrial designer: grey . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah sea view , yes , simpson 's versions and marketing: yeah , see through version . yeah . if you press a button , it turns green . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , well industrial designer: leave . project manager: that 's the user interface: a disco version . project manager: signal for las final five minutes . user interface: five minutes ? project manager: um so i have uh the things i just read . um then we have uh separate menus for teletext , screen settings , audio settings , and what else ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: channel settings ? user interface: oh yeah , right . project manager: channel settings . user interface: so you can program the tv . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: mm . user interface: perhaps you should you 'd throw them on on in one pile . so , options , and then you sub them . marketing: yeah . could be possible . user interface: otherwise you have all those teletext , perhaps teletext not , industrial designer: mm . user interface: but marketing: or like uh you have a menu button , you press project manager: no , we said teletext also a separate menu . user interface: yeah , but i marketing: yeah , or otherwise you have a menu button , press menu then you have uh main uh menu search uh all the all the settings . user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay , but we can work that out later , i guess . user interface: but marketing: yeah , no problem . yep . project manager: so we 're having a a general menu with the most used functions , uh teletext , screen settings , audio settings , channel settings , and maybe there are options for the remote itself ? like uh large icons or small icons user interface: i do n't know . project manager: and i do n't know what else , marketing: um , project manager: but industrial designer: no . marketing: i think b because we do n't have a lot of buttons on the one screen , user interface: or do we have any buttons ? on the remote . marketing: i think the buttons yeah , but but or like you have user interface: which one ? marketing: you only have channel button or volume button . those buttons you can you can project manager: yeah , but on the lcd , user interface: but that 's also in the lcd , project manager: huh ? user interface: right ? marketing: yeah . project manager: right , yeah , okay . user interface: so we do n't have any normal buttons marketing: yeah , th user interface: that uh marketing: no , no normal buttons , yeah . user interface: no , alright . marketing: maybe only the on and o on and off button . user interface: yet on and off is p is perhaps you kno project manager: but we do n't need a special industrial designer: uh not button marketing: but i do n't think project manager: we do n't need a special options menu for the remote itself . user interface: no , no . marketing: mm , no . project manager: okay . user interface: oh well , you should be able to set which tv you have . if you have if you have uh industrial designer: yeah sure , of course you need uh a settings button , uh or a settings option for the remote control . user interface: yeah . but is n't idea to use uh uh what you said , uh normal on and off button for the tv , that you do n't have to use a marketing: no no no , because we we discussed that you could charge it , otherwise is it it jumps to stand-by mode automatically . user interface: yeah but but not for the remote but for the tv , that you use marketing: yeah , but a tv of course , th that 's the i think that 's a best thing is that to implement that one in the menu with the volume and channel . user interface: but a not as normal button , in the lcd , marketing: no . project manager: well maybe there should be a separate button apart from the lcd , user interface: yeah . project manager: because you ca n't turn it on when the lcd is off . so how do you turn the thing on ? there has to be a on button on the remote , user interface: no you just tap i think . project manager: huh ? industrial designer: just tap it . marketing: yeah , you tap . project manager: tap the thing . okay . marketing: touch screen , yeah then it 's turn turn off , turn on . project manager: and then the television is on also , or just the remote ? marketing: no , just the remote . user interface: but marketing: a television do n't have to be on , that one you can press on , industrial designer: yeah , it should be in standby mode , but marketing: yeah stand-by , then press on remote , press on and then tv should be available . or not . user interface: yeah a yeah . i do n't know whether it 's handy to have a n a normal on button , a r just uh rubber uh for for tv , marketing: separate . user interface: so you can turn it on and then you can choose the channel . otherwise you i do n't know whether or not that 's industrial designer: a a a normal button on the remote control , user interface: yeah , yeah . to turn it on . industrial designer: or norm ? user interface: of or you should put it in the lcd screen . industrial designer: yeah , because uh when you touch the lcd screen when it is in standby mode , it should pop on . user interface: yeah , i have , project manager: okay , well user interface: yeah . industrial designer: wh uh why would it be a a need to have a normal button ? user interface: well i i guess if you use the lcd screen , you first have to search where is the on button , then you uh you you then turn it , and then the tv goes on . but if you have a normal on button on the on the remote , then you do the on , and then you search the channel which you want . marketing: yeah , but i think the re the remote control , if you press tap the screen , it always should jump to the screen which has the volume button , channel button , and of course of also the on and off button . industrial designer: mm . user interface: oh right . industrial designer: i think it looks a lot more fancy if you use uh if you do n't have any buttons on the s on on remote control . user interface: yeah , i think so too . otherwise y wet e k yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so actually we 're going to create a a button-less uh remote . no buttons at all . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , well that 's might be a unique selling point , huh for a remote . user interface: if we can afford it . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , well i guess we have to industrial designer: oh , okay marketing: yeah , if we can afford it . yeah . project manager: postpone further discussion to uh our next meeting , because we 're running out of time . um for now , we 're having a lunch break , industrial designer: oh . project manager: and then there will be uh half an hour for the uh next share of individual work . i will uh write uh minutes , if i can create them out of this . and uh put them in the the project documents uh folder . user interface: industrial designer: mm . project manager: and here are the individual actions for the for the other roles . and of course specific instructions will be sent to you again by your uh personal coach . user interface: alright . project manager: luckily as we are . okay , well user interface: project manager: thank you very much , for now , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh have a nice lunch , huh ? user interface: lunch . industrial designer: okay . user interface: industrial designer: food . user interface: should we put this back in our rooms , or uh ? industrial designer: yeah , think so . user interface: yeah .

project manager began functional design meeting with reviewed last meeting and looked at new project requirements . the group did a presentation and made discussion about conceptual remote control design . they decided to use the lcd screen in the design as it was popular for the market and hard to damage . because of the high price of lcd , the group put up a backup design with buttons instead of lcd as a solution . after group discussion , remote control would be designed with buttons shape and functions such as channels selection and speech recognition .

summarize industrial designer 's desire about remote control working design . </s> project manager: good morning , again . industrial designer: one question . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: send . user interface: choose a number ? industrial designer: submit . marketing: yep yep yep yep . project manager: all set ? industrial designer: mm . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: good . okay . let 's see what we can find here . okay . a very warm welcome again to everyone . user interface: project manager: um here we are already at our uh functional design meeting . um and this is what we are going to do . the opening , which we are doing now , um and the special note , i 'm project manager but on the meetings i 'm also the secretary , which means i will make uh minutes as i did of the previous meeting . industrial designer: project manager: and uh i also put these as fast as possible in the uh project folder , so you can see them and review what we have discussed . um if i 'm right , there are three presentations , i guess each one of you has prepared one ? good . user interface: yes . project manager: and um we will also take a look at new project requirements , um if you have n't heard about them yet . and then of course we have to take a decision on the remote control functions and we have some more time , forty minutes . but i think we will need it . um well i do n't know who wants to go first with his presentation . industrial designer: i 'll go first . okay . i 'll go first yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: you can go first , okay . user interface: well . marketing: well , shall i go first with the users ? user interface: well marketing: i think well okay no problem . project manager: is there an order ? i have n't user interface: everybody already has his presentation , marketing: ja precies , ja precies , ja precies user interface: so you can adjust it . industrial designer: so . huh ? okay , um project manager: and one question , uh your name denni , is it with a marketing: e_i_e_ . project manager: i_e_ e_i_e_ , okay . thank you . user interface: industrial designer: okay , um i wanted to explain the working design of the remote control . it 's possibly very handy if you want to uh design one of those . um well so it basically works uh as i uh uh r wrote down uh in this uh little uh summary . uh when you press a button , uh that 's when you do pr for example when you uh want to turn up the volume , um a little connection is made uh the the rubber uh button just presses on a project manager: sorry . marketing: user interface: industrial designer: on a little print plate uh which uh makes uh uh a connection that uh gives the chips , uh which is uh mounted beneath those uh that plastic of a rubber button . uh senses that a connection has been made , and know and knows what button you pressed , becau uh for example the the volume up or volume down button . um uh the the chip uh makes a morse code uh like uh signal which uh then is si uh signalled to uh several transistors which makes uh which sends the signal to a little let . you know what a let is ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . and that makes uh the the infra-red lights signal which is sent to the television set . uh which has a sensor in it to uh sense uh the signal of the infra-red . that 's basically uh how it works . um the findings uh uh that i found uh searching up some uh detailed information about the remote controls , are that uh they are very easy to produce , uh it is pis uh it 's possible to uh make them in mass production because it is as eas it is as easy as uh printing a page , uh just uh fibreglass plate um is b uh is uh covered with uh some uh coatings and uh uh and chips . user interface: industrial designer: uh and the technology 's already available , we do n't have to find out how remote controls uh have to work or uh how that how uh to make some chips that are possible to uh to to transmit those uh signals . uh i made a little uh uh animation of about how a tran our uh remote controller works . user interface: marketing: user interface: oh right . marketing: animation . user interface: industrial designer: we tel user interface: there is something turning . industrial designer: there . project manager: yeah , it 's a little bug it 's in the in the smart board . industrial designer: okay . uh well user interface: industrial designer: the sub-component , i suppose that you understand what a sub-component is , is f in this example it 's the button . uh when it is pressed down , um , the switch is ter is uh is switched on , so with uh the wire is sent to the to the chip in uh co-operation with the battery of course , because to make uh a a signal possible you have to have some sort of uh li uh a d ad uh electronic uh user interface: marketing: infrared light . industrial designer: yes , uh , okay . um w after it 's being composed by the chip uh the signal uh is transported uh to the infra-red bulb , and from there it signals a morse code-like signal to the to the b to the bulb in uh in the television set . okay . s uh i wrote down some personal preferences about uh the remote control . of course it is very handy if the remote control is hand held , so you do n't have to uh uh wind it up or something , or just is it 's it 's very light to uh to make uh to use it . uh i personally uh pref prefer that uh it would be p uh come available in the various colours , and uh easy to use buttons . but i suppose that the one of the other team members uh uh thought of that uh too . user interface: yeah , i 've got it there too . industrial designer: and it is possible for several designs and um easy to use b uh sorry , easy to use buttons . perhaps soft touch , uh touch screen uh buttons because uh the rubber buttons are always uh uh they uh slightly uh they can be slightly damaged , marketing: industrial designer: uh so the numbers on the buttons are not possible uh to read anymore . and uh well as i said uh before th uh we can uh make several designs . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay , well , that 's my contribution to this meeting , and uh marketing: to this meeting . project manager: okay , thank you . user interface: industrial designer: two of these this meeting . so . user interface: shall i go uh next ? project manager: yep . user interface: 'kay . project manager: please . user interface: so . marketing: smoking . user interface: well uh , my name 's , and i looked at uh technical functions design of the remote . uh i did this by uh looking at examples of other remote controls , of how they uh they look , and information from the web that i found . um well what i found was that uh th the actual use of the remote control is to send messages to television set , how you uh d what you described uh just early . and this can be all sorts of medsa messages , turn it on , turn it off , uh change the channel , adjust volume , that kind of thing . uh play video , teletext , but also t uh play c_d_ if you use it your c_d_ player the remote control will that one . there are some uh examples of remote controls . you can see they are very different . the one has got all the functions that you could possibly need and an lot of uh buttons etcetera . and the other is uh more user friendly , little with big buttons . and uh not n all the the the the stuff you can do with it , but uh the the essential stuff is there . um i guess you could better y you should look at a a user centred uh approach , because the customers have to use them and and if they do n't think it 's usable they wo n't uh buy it . a lot of buttons they may think from i do n't need s as much as that . uh , well perf personal preferences is is uh a simple remote , with uh the basic functions that you can need that you could use . but uh keep in mind the new functions of tv what we discussed earlier , split screen and uh is that a function that you should have ? because all the tvs will have them . or because of only a few and is n't really necessary . and then uh make it i would make so that you can could uh use it on more than one appliance . if you have one that uh uh does with the vi the the video , it could also work with uh with the stereo , because play is play and stop stop and that sort of thing . the shu c you could reuse the buttons so that you do n't have to have a lot of buttons for uh anything . and it should be a user friendly , clear buttons , and not too much . and that is my presentation . project manager: okay , thank you . industrial designer: okay . marketing: 'kay . check . industrial designer: user interface: you must still have it open . marketing: kijke 'kay , so . we 're going to j discuss the functional requirements of the remote , that m that means that functions user n want to have on the remote control , or just yeah , and the users , actually . industrial designer: marketing: the methods i i prefer is we 're going to look which section of the users we are going to focus a l on more . are the younger people going to buy the remote control or the elderly people ? and then tho that section we 're going to focus and adjust the remote more to that section than the whole user section . okay . some data . younger people , from sixteen to thir forty five um years are more interested in fj features like lcd screens , speech recognition e etcetera . and we possess about two third of the market from in that range of age . the elderly people , from forty five years to sixty five years are not that much interested in features , and we possess less than two third , that 's two fifth , of the market share in that area . goed so . project manager: industrial designer: hmm . marketing: 'kay . findings . fifty percent of the users lose their remote often . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: so we do n't have to make it very small , like uh like a mobile phone or something , but some somewhat bi bigger than small , so you do n't lose it that much anymore . seventy five percent of the users also find it ugly , industrial designer: mm . marketing: and fif seventy five of the users zap a lot , so the buttons sh should be that small , or should n't be that complex because we have to search for the buttons , which one are you going to use . next . important issues about the remote . i think it would be better with a personal reference , but okay . remote control has to have to have a low power usage , because s w seventy five percent of the users only zap one time an hour , so the power usage is also one one time an hour , or so , with a high power usage we would use a lot of but batteries . the volume button and the channel buttons are the two most important buttons on the remote control , so those they those have to h be find very easily . and have to be somewhat like bigger etcetera . it has also be have to find easily when the label is gone . my colleague also announced it that labels should be scratched off industrial designer: mm . user interface: hmm . marketing: or would be s uh senden user interface: marketing: okay . so uh if that 's k uh if that 's the problem , you also have to find it easily on the remote . buttons . like what all colleagues said , have to have to be minimalized . or should be covered , or in lcd screen . lcd screen is easy because we have the lcd screen , we have the various options . put one option and then you have the all the buttons of that options , so the other options would be gone . and you do n't see the buttons . so lcd screens should be easy , but an lcd screen , the problem with the l_ sc lcd screen is that elderly people fr from forty five to for sixty five years do n't use the lcd screen a lot . so we have to that keep that in mind that if you 're going to implement lcd screen , you do n't have to make it that hard to learn or to use . industrial designer: uh lcd screen as in uh touch screen ? marketing: yeah , touch screen , yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: the last but not least , younger people are more critical about the features . because they use the remote control often more often , and are more technical than the ol older people . and the older people spend more money , and easily on a remote control . user interface: mm . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: so we have to keep in mind to to focus not a lot not that much on the younger pep younger people , but also somewhat on the elderly people . and on my personal preferences , i do n't have any mo more time to come with that , user interface: marketing: but like i said , lcd screen is easily to use industrial designer: marketing: because you have you can implement a lot of buttons in one remote with not that much buttons . and it should be easy to use . especially the volume buttons , the channel buttes buttons and the number buttons to zap through the channels . and that is it . project manager: okay , industrial designer: okay . project manager: thank you . user interface: oh right . project manager: um , well thank you all , huh . i dunno uh did everyone receive an email with uh the new project requirements ? user interface: no . res i did not . project manager: no ? well , user interface: perhaps the rest ? industrial designer: no . project manager: then i think it 's a good thing that i made a separate slide of them marketing: ja , project manager: so you can all read them . oh , well not in this presentation . hmm user interface: project manager: should be in there . well , i can tell you them uh from my laptop . um teletext does has become outdated since the popularity of the internet . user interface: oh . mm . project manager: so that 's uh the first thing we i think we should pay less attention to uh teletext . uh the remote control should only be used for the television , otherwise the project becomes more complex , which endangers the time to market , and of course would make it more costly , i think . um our current customers are within the age group of forty plus , and new product should reach a new market with customers that are younger than forty , and you talked about that before . and uh a last point , but also very important , our corporate image should stay recognisable in our products , which means that our uh corporate colour and slogan must be implemented in the new design . so we have to keep that in mind . um well uh according to our agenda it 's then time to take a decision on the remote control functions . so , who has any idea about what should be on it , and what should n't ? user interface: well you said it should only uh work with one appliance ? marketing: be television . user interface: or with one uh d che only the tv ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . only be used for television . user interface: and the video also , or not uh ? project manager: well it says only for television here , huh . marketing: only the television . user interface: oh . alright . okay . project manager: makes it a lot easier , huh ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm . marketing: so yeah , then you can yeah . requirements , no ? functions . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then it should have uh on , off , industrial designer: yeah for user interface: and uh industrial designer: standby options , marketing: yeah , the basics then by a volume , channel , one till two zero numbers on it , industrial designer: yeah ? uh yeah . user interface: yeah . and per perhaps uh marketing: oh teletext does n't have to be ? user interface: no . marketing: um other functions . user interface: well uh uh yes yes s sh a button where you can uh change from one number to two numbers . marketing: yeah i had industrial designer: two s two two digits , marketing: yeah , yeah . user interface: can you industrial designer: oh okay . user interface: do n't know if that 's got a name , industrial designer: yeah i understand what you mean . yeah . user interface: but marketing: i think it 's i think it 's easy to implement a button with a s s what which especially do that , because some tvs , if you press the t one and then the two , it be between five secs it make twelve , industrial designer: it makes it twelve , yeah . user interface: yeah . s industrial designer: indeed . okay . marketing: and that 's that 's not relaxed industrial designer: well , not really marketing: to user . industrial designer: and and there are some models that do n't uh accommodate that function . so marketing: yeah . industrial designer: d uh wh the philip 's television makes it possible in that indeed to uh press one and then two to make uh the uh tj to reach channel twelve . marketing: so that it easy and fast . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but uh all the television makes uh use of those button where you first press that button and then press two digits to uh to get marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah , so you should have that one on . industrial designer: uh yeah , think so . marketing: our main targets ' age are ? were ? forty five plus , or ? user interface: mute misschien also . project manager: uh well industrial designer: mm . project manager: new product should reach a market with customers that are younger than forty , and now we have current customers uh of forty plus . marketing: forties , okay because because younger people as uh younger people have now , sixteen till to twenty five age , are f eighty one percent interested in lcd screen . from twenty six to thirty five have sixty six percent , and thirty six to forty five , fifty five percent , so i think to um because on most recog remote controls um the print plate will be broken how much , two years . you have to press h very hard to go to the next channel . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: with the lcd screen it 's easier because you only have to wipe the screen to uh for fingerprint , industrial designer: yeah , we we could yeah . but i think that uh that collides with our mission to make it very cheap . marketing: and then you can use it again . industrial designer: because lcd screens are very expensive . marketing: yeah , okay . user interface: an industrial designer: a touch screen uh probably uh even more . marketing: yeah but a you do n't know industrial designer: so , marketing: true . industrial designer: true , true . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: but uh well um is it possible to make an lcd screen uh , how was the information ? marketing: yeah , it only says that this perce percentage like lcd screen . because , yeah and it says that younger age between sixteen and forty five highly interesting features more critical . industrial designer: so perhaps we should we should focus on that lcd screen . marketing: and if the only f yeah , because our target is sixteen to forty five . user interface: but , do you industrial designer: yeah but uh will we not uh exceed our uh our uh production uh marketing: yeah you do n't know how much it costs . yeah , you do n't know how much it costs , the lcd screen . industrial designer: is it possible to find out , anyway ? marketing: no , i do n't have any costs here , industrial designer: you know ? marketing: i only have percentages . user interface: but if you would do an lcd screen do we have don do n't you have any buttons ? or because if it only directs at the tv , then you only have uh i do n't know what you want to do with the lcd screen . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: no , an lcd screen 's just like uh like a drawn here . um just uh displays several buttons , user interface: yeah ? industrial designer: for example um if you wanted the minimal uh use b uh buttons , such as channel and volume , you just h uh displays four buttons on the screen user interface: oh right , so you can industrial designer: and it 's possible to p uh press them down , just like a touch screen . user interface: oh , yeah alright . so you can adjust which buttons you want on that s screen . industrial designer: yeah , we can make it possible to do that , yeah . marketing: yeah , if you want to adjust , like for example , adjust the audio settings , you press audio on the touchscreen industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: and you get the buttons for audio settings , user interface: yeah alright , oh right . marketing: so the other buttons are gone . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: so we 're going for an lcd screen ? user interface: yeah . would be yeah . marketing: i think it 's the most easier thing , industrial designer: that 's my uh project manager: and hoping that when we produce a lot it wo n't be too expensive . marketing: yeah . user interface: well we had twelve fifty , i guess , for uh production ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: no . yeah . industrial designer: twelve fifty . marketing: industrial designer: um . user interface: any guesses ? industrial designer: marketing: industrial designer: well i suppose wi if the mar if our um if the i if the young people are interested in lcd screens , we should make 'em . marketing: highly . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and if that is our d uh market share to uh and our goal to uh deliver those uh remote controls user interface: but but he also said that we should not only focus on the younger people , but also on the older , and will they use it if it only has an lcd screen ? marketing: yeah , but um , s forty six to forty five , thirty three percent , and sixty fifty six to sixty five twelve percent . user interface: oh , so still a little bit people marketing: but our our our what 's it , project requirements are the new products should be reached for new markets , to customers that are younger than forty . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah that 's right . but you do n't want to alienate the other uh marketing: no , that not now , but , so user interface: but if they also buy it then it 's alright . i guess . marketing: yeah , but market share fro for for forty years and younger is higher than that of sixty five and younger . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . alright . project manager: okay , so lcd it is ? user interface: an yes . project manager: okay . industrial designer: mm . it 's treasure . project manager: and what else ? industrial designer: i hope we uh h and let 's hope to reach those uh those sales . marketing: yeah , i i if it yeah , if it costs gets too much , too expensive , then yeah , we should be sticking to rubber buttons . project manager: user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , can you um uh s i think that that they will send you some information about uh the cost of lcd uh screens . user interface: yeah . marketing: n nothing , no costs at all . user interface: but perhaps later , industrial designer: uh so if you uh user interface: so uh industrial designer: yeah , so if you uh you receive an email about that , uh can you post it in the or should n't we post that in uh our projects mail uh folder . marketing: yeah , in user interface: yeah . marketing: i think that should yeah i think we all get the costs of everything . user interface: i do n't industrial designer: because you are the the marketing uh expert . marketing: yeah , okay , i 'll i 'll post it . industrial designer: i uh user interface: well perhaps we should have a backup plan that we would use buttons if it 's uh too expensive . industrial designer: yeah sure , sure . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , okay . but for now it 's lcd . okay . marketing: okay , lcd , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: then you have the seventy five percent of users find it r ugly . industrial designer: user interface: the lcd ? oh that 's a bit of a problem . marketing: yeah , and eighty percent of the users would spend more money with a when a remote would look fancy . user interface: oh , that 's a bit of a problem . industrial designer: mm . marketing: tha i l i it 'll look fancy with lcd screen . yeah . industrial designer: it 's looks fancy one yeah , of lcd screen . user interface: yeah , but they do n't they do n't like it . project manager: yeah . user interface: they think it 's ugly . when it has an lcd screen . marketing: yeah , just a the plain remotes , not not specific lcd remotes . user interface: oh , alright , i thought that you said that . project manager: yeah , and maybe you can make something fancy out of an lcd remote , marketing: so project manager: because it 's new , as far as i know . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: industrial designer: mm yeah . marketing: yeah , of course . industrial designer: and then not yeah . marketing: and then you have the other thing , that seventy five percent zap a lot , but that 's not a f question with the lcd screen . industrial designer: um . yeah . marketing: only thing you have to do is wipe the screen off once each time , to get all the fingerprints off it . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm . okay ? project manager: okay , what else does our remote need ? user interface: a mute button . marketing: um project manager: mute button . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i think . and marketing: the most important things on a f on an on an uh remote control are channel selection , volume con selection , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and power s power usage . user interface: yeah . marketing: and a teletext , but that is not of the question . user interface: but but should n't you put a button of for teletext on the for the people who want to use it ? marketing: other things are sorry ? user interface: remembering we have got a big remote that you have to fill . marketing: yeah , it could be . yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . yeah , and we could make an a a separate menu on the lcd uh screen for teletext . marketing: yeah , teletext . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and there 's also a marketing: and other other less important things are screen settings , audio settings , and channel settings , user interface: yeah , they are less important , but i think they should be there , marketing: less important . user interface: or not ? marketing: yeah , should be there , industrial designer: a sh marketing: but not press industrial designer: but in a sub sub-menu or something like that . marketing: yeah , sub-menu , yeah . industrial designer: uh i think it 's also important to uh make it possible to um how do you call it in english , uh , to not use batteries , and use ac uh bat uh batteries to uh to be project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: like with a with a mouse , you have not , yeah . industrial designer: yeah yeah sure . indeed . so uh you can mount uh the the the uh marketing: yeah , in a breath it 's industrial designer: uh the remote control to um project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: charted . user interface: we should think of the twelve fifty we have industrial designer: to refill the user interface: but marketing: yeah , user interface: i do n't know how much that 's going to uh marketing: but we do n't we do n't have any costs now , industrial designer: yeah . okay , marketing: so yeah . industrial designer: because i uh when you get an lcd screen , you run it on batteries , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: the batteries will be uh empty very soon , very fast . marketing: yeah e e power supply is one of the most important things . user interface: you should perhaps you should be able to to switch the control off . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: if you have an lcd screen that 's burns all the time i dunno . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . yeah . user interface: you should n't on and off because that 's ver extra , that you have t first you have to turn the remote on , and then you can uh project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: i do n't know . industrial designer: uh marketing: yeah , i think it 's it 's not that easy because i do n't think people will like it who who uh that you have to turn it on first and then use it , user interface: nee that 's that 's uh yeah . marketing: so i think it 's better when th the tv shuts down , the remote shuts down . user interface: but then you ca n't industrial designer: and go to standby mode when you do n't use it , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so that marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah yeah au automac matically , that it yeah . industrial designer: yeah , automatically . after two minutes or three minutes , something like that . marketing: yeah . after two minutes , yeah two three minutes , yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . and maybe a low battery indicator ? on the screen . industrial designer: yeah . sure . project manager: marketing: yeah . user interface: marketing: and then b that uh industrial designer: marketing: before an hour when its get again gets empty . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: then you have plenty of time to recharge it , industrial designer: mm . marketing: of put it in a recharger . charger . project manager: so we are going for the for the recharger . user interface: project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , if it 's . uh . user interface: if it 's sensible . marketing: yeah , because when you 're watching tv , you 're zapping and you have to put it in a recharger , user interface: yeah . yeah , b when the batteries are low industrial designer: no , marketing: and i do n't think it industrial designer: when you when you 're done with s uh w uh watching your television , you have to put it marketing: yeah , okay , but then we have to be sure that the the the the batteries go hours , six hours , five , six hours , then . user interface: but you 'll also forget to put it in , industrial designer: yeah sure , of course . user interface: because you throw it on the couch industrial designer: yeah , marketing: yeah , industrial designer: but marketing: then you have a problem . user interface: and you do n't remember . industrial designer: but you also forget to buy batteries , user interface: yeah . that 's right . industrial designer: and then you can you ca n't use it , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so i marketing: or we have to be sure that the batteries last couple of days when they 're recharged . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: well i think the batteries should should w should work a lot longer than a couple of days , marketing: so . user interface: or not ? marketing: yeah because you have b user interface: 'cause marketing: but you have lcd screen . user interface: yeah , that 's right , but marketing: high power usage . industrial designer: high power user cell , i uh it should be uh a standard move to to put your remote control in the charger when you 're done watching television , marketing: yes . industrial designer: that 's also a a a great advantage because you ca n't lose it anymore . because you are obliged to uh put it in the charger and not to uh leave it in a couch uh between some cushions . marketing: true . yeah . yeah . true . user interface: yeah . right . industrial designer: okay . marketing: yeah , you made a point there . user interface: but then you also have to s have somewhere where you can put a remo recharger near your couch project manager: yeah , also . user interface: because otherwise you have to walk a long way when you twoft want to turn on the tv . marketing: yeah , otherwise all your yeah . just a small device . user interface: yeah . i think everything has it for and i guess . industrial designer: yeah it has n't it does n't have to be big . marketing: plug it in , that 's it . yeah , like a like telephone charger or something . industrial designer: yeah just just a cable , or a even a a a a a charger where you can mount it on . something like that , marketing: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: just u user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . user interface: alright . project manager: okay , well i 've marketing: it has to be easy to use also , or things . uh market share , speaker re speech recognition . project manager: yeah , you have some more user interface: project manager: points . industrial designer: functional designs uh for the elderly uh you could make it possible to enlarge the screen , marketing: i think . industrial designer: so make it possible to not uh display uh a button at ten points marketing: also . industrial designer: uh , or marketing: well i think that this should be standard . large button large buttons . industrial designer: yeah but it is uh one of the functions you have to uh specify . marketing: yeah ? okay . industrial designer: because we can look at uh uh perhaps uh forty buttons at a screen , but the elderly only look at two buttons . project manager: marketing: industrial designer: okay . marketing: . project manager: and you said something about speech recognition ? marketing: yeah , industrial designer: speech recognition ? marketing: it says also industrial designer: hello . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , industrial designer: twelve euro user interface: twelve fifty , twelve fifty . industrial designer: twelve euro fifty . marketing: twelve . that 's an also ninety one percent sixteen to twenty five , twenty six to thirty five years , seventy six percent , and thirty six to forty five , thirty five percent . user interface: so it 's pretty big . industrial designer: well , spread it by a big market . marketing: but then i i i project manager: even bigger than for lcd . user interface: yeah . w i know let 's do a speech . industrial designer: well marketing: yeah . industrial designer: let 's leave out all the remote controls and just put a microphone on top of the television to user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah . ninety . twenty five . user interface: you can clap or something . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: channel . industrial designer: turn volume up . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: hey , that that 's an idea . marketing: user interface: now you should n't say the wrong thing , i dunno . industrial designer: okay , well marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that should it has to be remote control , not marketing: yeah , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: twelve . user interface: but they want to talk into the remo remote control , or something , industrial designer: sure why not why not marketing: yeah . user interface: or ? marketing: is this only would you would you pay more for speech recognition in a remote control . it 's the only thing it says . industrial designer: yeah , mm . user interface: oh , but do we want to implement that , or ? marketing: i think an lcd screen should be suf sufficient . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: but when you look at the percentages marketing: yeah , it says a lot , but project manager: speech recognition scores even higher , huh ? industrial designer: perhaps the options should be uh why not ? user interface: project manager: yeah , well , industrial designer: why not ? project manager: maybe because of the cost , but uh nobody knows uh how much uh it will cost uh . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: let 's hope uh to have some uh d user interface: i know marketing: no i think i think it 's better to have l_ lcd screen , because in the area of tw thirty six to forty five , we have about thirty percent of the market share in in our hands , and fifty five of those people want lcd screen and thirty five want speech recognition . so i think it 's better to keep it with lcd screen . project manager: but would it be useful to imple implement both ? user interface: mm . project manager: on one remote ? marketing: yeah , if the costs al allow it . project manager: or user interface: well project manager: yeah , i dunno . user interface: i do n't know if that can be done with the cost of twelve fifty . marketing: nee . user interface: with that uh marketing: if it should be done , if it could be done , i wo n't matter . yeah . user interface: yeah , industrial designer: we should do it . yeah . sure . user interface: but how would you like to implement that , that you say volume up , and then it goes up , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: or ? marketing: yeah . user interface: uh . industrial designer: certain systems already exist , i think . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: then you also have to have different languages if we go international . then uh it 's y it 's yours to do a french and dutch and english marketing: true . industrial designer: true , yeah . marketing: yeah . true . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but that should also be with f should be also with lcd screen . industrial designer: this should be uh accommodated with some software , uh , uh . yeah . marketing: because then i think in chinese is different written , volume is different written than um swahili or something . user interface: yeah , that 's right . yeah . industrial designer: right . swahili . swahili . user interface: yeah you can use icons for the industrial designer: yeah . user interface: a speaker and uh marketing: ja , well possible . industrial designer: indeed . user interface: but if that 's better than language for the for the remote . marketing: yeah , yeah yeah yeah industrial designer: yeah . so we want to uh yeah it 's international uh okay . user interface: then it 's yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: 'kay , what else ? project manager: so , no speech recognition ? or user interface: well , if it could be done , we marketing: yeah , industrial designer: y it should be done . if it could be done , should be done . marketing: we have to keep yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , and then we have different languages . user interface: yeah , that should be uh anything matters . industrial designer: that 's not so difficult at all , project manager: okay , just make a separate remote for each uh industrial designer: because i already use on several voice operated systems , and they are all possible to uh not all , but user interface: well , you sh you should to adjust the thing . marketing: i think it 's difficult . every language of dialects user interface: yeah . marketing: i think it 's very differen difficult . user interface: and you have to speak the so that it can understand . marketing: yeah . i think it ca n't be implemented , but maybe user interface: you could use that n as an option , if you have money left , or something . marketing: yeah , 's an option , yes . industrial designer: yeah , sure , indeed . marketing: fifty euro cents . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: user interface: let 's do speech . industrial designer: for speech recognition . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , so we only do this when we have enough money left . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . well i 've written down an an on or off button , volume selection , channel selection , uh the digits from one to zero , huh . um or from zero to nine . uh a digits button to switch uh between one and two digits , mute button , a separate menu for teletext , a battery indicator . um we 're going to use a docking station and uh probably lcd and if there 's enough money , speech recognition . and uh the possibility to uh enlarge buttons or to have large buttons user interface: mm . yeah . marketing: mm , yes . project manager: in general . user interface: i with uh teletext if it was n't ver very important , it was but marketing: no , but user interface: you also now have colours . i do n't know if we should implement that . yeah , marketing: curved ? user interface: when you press the red button , you go to page one hundred two , and when you press the industrial designer: uh yeah . user interface: i do n't know if we should implement that , marketing: um . user interface: because it says that teletext not really important , industrial designer: s shortcuts . uh . user interface: but yeah , the shortcut , and you ca n't go to sport . marketing: i think we should we could that we could also implement a audio settings , screen settings and channel settings , but as sub-menus . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm . marketing: d mainly if you turn the uh remote control on , you have to u you have to see from one till zero , channel and volume . and if you want to use teletext screen or audio , then you can press it . industrial designer: sh yeah , just just sub-menu . yeah . marketing: it should be available but not user interface: 'cause it should be there . industrial designer: not directly uh available . marketing: not yeah . yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: okay , so not too much teletext support , but in a separate menu , and industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah . user interface: so actually it is there but it 's just not r ready there . marketing: yeah , but s industrial designer: directly available . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so does it confuse uh the user ? user interface: you 'll have to search for it . marketing: they 'd have to be easy to use . industrial designer: uh . i 'll search um . user interface: industrial designer: if you want to use teletext , you can push the teletext button and then the options uh become available . user interface: yeah . yeah , that 's a marketing: the sign of it . project manager: okay , but no more buttons or functions , or ? user interface: i guess not . industrial designer: no . marketing: uh , no . what else can you do with a television ? user interface: we 've got anon project manager: are n't we forgetting something very important ? user interface: have got got two examples here , but i do n't think there 's anything we 're missing . marketing: uh play , pause , does n't n need to be there . user interface: well , we do n't have the video orders marketing: yes , so this is your presentation . we could check the other remote controls with technical functions . user interface: yeah , you could look here all the the marketing: which ones were yours ? user interface: uh th th th th i do n't know , technical functions . marketing: techni user interface: they 're a bit small , you can we should stretch them , because project manager: ping . marketing: ja ja ja ja ja . technical functions . yeah okay . user interface: i guess we 've got them all . marketing: uh i think i go to have volume , mute but i yeah . very slow . yeah , the zoom buttons . user interface: and for a tv ? can you zoom in a tv ? marketing: yeah , b wide screen , high screen , different things you have , user interface: or that you can put 'em on uh on on wide and marketing: yeah different uh user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: but that should also be a sub then , a sub uh menu thing . industrial designer: menu . marketing: yeah it should be available , but then in separate screen settings or something . user interface: yeah , so we should also implement se screen settings . industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah , screen settings , audio settings , teletext settings you have . user interface: oh right . yeah . marketing: channel settings . user interface: yeah , so you can program the marketing: so those four , and of course the main . user interface: yeah , so the first you see the main , and the other ones you can uh go to uh marketing: yeah . yeah . like tap screens or something user interface: yeah . marketing: or , i dunno . user interface: i hope we can do this . marketing: something industrial designer: there are a lot of options depending uh on what kind of television you got . marketing: yeah , if uh industrial designer: 'cause if you do n't got a wide screen television you do n't need the uh the screen settings marketing: no , you do n't yu a no you then you do n't no ni do n't industrial designer: uh for uh marketing: then you do n't use it . industrial designer: yeah and if the television does not support such uh operations marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we do n't have to use that top . yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so you leave it alone . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . or it could be possible to have a a standard version of the remote , an expanded version . user interface: yeah . and do we want them in different colours , or marketing: yeah . user interface: and and the buttons , should they have colours ? marketing: colours . yeah . industrial designer: colours i think the main colour of the remote control is uh the colour of the lcd screen . user interface: oh but we do n't have any buttons . yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i because we do n't want a lot a devi yeah a device self s g marketing: yeah , then defines itself . because uh how many percent ? eighty percent ? user interface: they think it 's ugly , right ? marketing: would spend more money if it looks fancy . industrial designer: okay , so use uh very uh lot of peo user interface: perhaps you can uh make adjustable fronts , like with the telephones . industrial designer: adjust with phones , yes user interface: you can uh but i do n't think that uh industrial designer: okay . twelve euro fifty . well , make it available in different colours , you mean ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: sure . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: red , white , blue , black . user interface: project manager: and a see-through uh marketing: rasta colours . industrial designer: grey . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah sea view , yes , simpson 's versions and marketing: yeah , see through version . yeah . if you press a button , it turns green . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , well industrial designer: leave . project manager: that 's the user interface: a disco version . project manager: signal for las final five minutes . user interface: five minutes ? project manager: um so i have uh the things i just read . um then we have uh separate menus for teletext , screen settings , audio settings , and what else ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: channel settings ? user interface: oh yeah , right . project manager: channel settings . user interface: so you can program the tv . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: mm . user interface: perhaps you should you 'd throw them on on in one pile . so , options , and then you sub them . marketing: yeah . could be possible . user interface: otherwise you have all those teletext , perhaps teletext not , industrial designer: mm . user interface: but marketing: or like uh you have a menu button , you press project manager: no , we said teletext also a separate menu . user interface: yeah , but i marketing: yeah , or otherwise you have a menu button , press menu then you have uh main uh menu search uh all the all the settings . user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay , but we can work that out later , i guess . user interface: but marketing: yeah , no problem . yep . project manager: so we 're having a a general menu with the most used functions , uh teletext , screen settings , audio settings , channel settings , and maybe there are options for the remote itself ? like uh large icons or small icons user interface: i do n't know . project manager: and i do n't know what else , marketing: um , project manager: but industrial designer: no . marketing: i think b because we do n't have a lot of buttons on the one screen , user interface: or do we have any buttons ? on the remote . marketing: i think the buttons yeah , but but or like you have user interface: which one ? marketing: you only have channel button or volume button . those buttons you can you can project manager: yeah , but on the lcd , user interface: but that 's also in the lcd , project manager: huh ? user interface: right ? marketing: yeah . project manager: right , yeah , okay . user interface: so we do n't have any normal buttons marketing: yeah , th user interface: that uh marketing: no , no normal buttons , yeah . user interface: no , alright . marketing: maybe only the on and o on and off button . user interface: yet on and off is p is perhaps you kno project manager: but we do n't need a special industrial designer: uh not button marketing: but i do n't think project manager: we do n't need a special options menu for the remote itself . user interface: no , no . marketing: mm , no . project manager: okay . user interface: oh well , you should be able to set which tv you have . if you have if you have uh industrial designer: yeah sure , of course you need uh a settings button , uh or a settings option for the remote control . user interface: yeah . but is n't idea to use uh uh what you said , uh normal on and off button for the tv , that you do n't have to use a marketing: no no no , because we we discussed that you could charge it , otherwise is it it jumps to stand-by mode automatically . user interface: yeah but but not for the remote but for the tv , that you use marketing: yeah , but a tv of course , th that 's the i think that 's a best thing is that to implement that one in the menu with the volume and channel . user interface: but a not as normal button , in the lcd , marketing: no . project manager: well maybe there should be a separate button apart from the lcd , user interface: yeah . project manager: because you ca n't turn it on when the lcd is off . so how do you turn the thing on ? there has to be a on button on the remote , user interface: no you just tap i think . project manager: huh ? industrial designer: just tap it . marketing: yeah , you tap . project manager: tap the thing . okay . marketing: touch screen , yeah then it 's turn turn off , turn on . project manager: and then the television is on also , or just the remote ? marketing: no , just the remote . user interface: but marketing: a television do n't have to be on , that one you can press on , industrial designer: yeah , it should be in standby mode , but marketing: yeah stand-by , then press on remote , press on and then tv should be available . or not . user interface: yeah a yeah . i do n't know whether it 's handy to have a n a normal on button , a r just uh rubber uh for for tv , marketing: separate . user interface: so you can turn it on and then you can choose the channel . otherwise you i do n't know whether or not that 's industrial designer: a a a normal button on the remote control , user interface: yeah , yeah . to turn it on . industrial designer: or norm ? user interface: of or you should put it in the lcd screen . industrial designer: yeah , because uh when you touch the lcd screen when it is in standby mode , it should pop on . user interface: yeah , i have , project manager: okay , well user interface: yeah . industrial designer: wh uh why would it be a a need to have a normal button ? user interface: well i i guess if you use the lcd screen , you first have to search where is the on button , then you uh you you then turn it , and then the tv goes on . but if you have a normal on button on the on the remote , then you do the on , and then you search the channel which you want . marketing: yeah , but i think the re the remote control , if you press tap the screen , it always should jump to the screen which has the volume button , channel button , and of course of also the on and off button . industrial designer: mm . user interface: oh right . industrial designer: i think it looks a lot more fancy if you use uh if you do n't have any buttons on the s on on remote control . user interface: yeah , i think so too . otherwise y wet e k yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so actually we 're going to create a a button-less uh remote . no buttons at all . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , well that 's might be a unique selling point , huh for a remote . user interface: if we can afford it . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , well i guess we have to industrial designer: oh , okay marketing: yeah , if we can afford it . yeah . project manager: postpone further discussion to uh our next meeting , because we 're running out of time . um for now , we 're having a lunch break , industrial designer: oh . project manager: and then there will be uh half an hour for the uh next share of individual work . i will uh write uh minutes , if i can create them out of this . and uh put them in the the project documents uh folder . user interface: industrial designer: mm . project manager: and here are the individual actions for the for the other roles . and of course specific instructions will be sent to you again by your uh personal coach . user interface: alright . project manager: luckily as we are . okay , well user interface: project manager: thank you very much , for now , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh have a nice lunch , huh ? user interface: lunch . industrial designer: okay . user interface: industrial designer: food . user interface: should we put this back in our rooms , or uh ? industrial designer: yeah , think so . user interface: yeah .

industrial designer designed remote control with handy size and made a connection with chips under the plastic of rubber button . chip transmitted signal by morse code which made infra-red lights signal could be sent to the tv . industrial designer prefered remote control with various colours so that it would be easy to use . on the other hand , industrial designer thought rubber buttons were easy to damage so they could make several designs .

what did the group discuss about the functional remote control ? </s> project manager: good morning , again . industrial designer: one question . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: send . user interface: choose a number ? industrial designer: submit . marketing: yep yep yep yep . project manager: all set ? industrial designer: mm . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: good . okay . let 's see what we can find here . okay . a very warm welcome again to everyone . user interface: project manager: um here we are already at our uh functional design meeting . um and this is what we are going to do . the opening , which we are doing now , um and the special note , i 'm project manager but on the meetings i 'm also the secretary , which means i will make uh minutes as i did of the previous meeting . industrial designer: project manager: and uh i also put these as fast as possible in the uh project folder , so you can see them and review what we have discussed . um if i 'm right , there are three presentations , i guess each one of you has prepared one ? good . user interface: yes . project manager: and um we will also take a look at new project requirements , um if you have n't heard about them yet . and then of course we have to take a decision on the remote control functions and we have some more time , forty minutes . but i think we will need it . um well i do n't know who wants to go first with his presentation . industrial designer: i 'll go first . okay . i 'll go first yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: you can go first , okay . user interface: well . marketing: well , shall i go first with the users ? user interface: well marketing: i think well okay no problem . project manager: is there an order ? i have n't user interface: everybody already has his presentation , marketing: ja precies , ja precies , ja precies user interface: so you can adjust it . industrial designer: so . huh ? okay , um project manager: and one question , uh your name denni , is it with a marketing: e_i_e_ . project manager: i_e_ e_i_e_ , okay . thank you . user interface: industrial designer: okay , um i wanted to explain the working design of the remote control . it 's possibly very handy if you want to uh design one of those . um well so it basically works uh as i uh uh r wrote down uh in this uh little uh summary . uh when you press a button , uh that 's when you do pr for example when you uh want to turn up the volume , um a little connection is made uh the the rubber uh button just presses on a project manager: sorry . marketing: user interface: industrial designer: on a little print plate uh which uh makes uh uh a connection that uh gives the chips , uh which is uh mounted beneath those uh that plastic of a rubber button . uh senses that a connection has been made , and know and knows what button you pressed , becau uh for example the the volume up or volume down button . um uh the the chip uh makes a morse code uh like uh signal which uh then is si uh signalled to uh several transistors which makes uh which sends the signal to a little let . you know what a let is ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . and that makes uh the the infra-red lights signal which is sent to the television set . uh which has a sensor in it to uh sense uh the signal of the infra-red . that 's basically uh how it works . um the findings uh uh that i found uh searching up some uh detailed information about the remote controls , are that uh they are very easy to produce , uh it is pis uh it 's possible to uh make them in mass production because it is as eas it is as easy as uh printing a page , uh just uh fibreglass plate um is b uh is uh covered with uh some uh coatings and uh uh and chips . user interface: industrial designer: uh and the technology 's already available , we do n't have to find out how remote controls uh have to work or uh how that how uh to make some chips that are possible to uh to to transmit those uh signals . uh i made a little uh uh animation of about how a tran our uh remote controller works . user interface: marketing: user interface: oh right . marketing: animation . user interface: industrial designer: we tel user interface: there is something turning . industrial designer: there . project manager: yeah , it 's a little bug it 's in the in the smart board . industrial designer: okay . uh well user interface: industrial designer: the sub-component , i suppose that you understand what a sub-component is , is f in this example it 's the button . uh when it is pressed down , um , the switch is ter is uh is switched on , so with uh the wire is sent to the to the chip in uh co-operation with the battery of course , because to make uh a a signal possible you have to have some sort of uh li uh a d ad uh electronic uh user interface: marketing: infrared light . industrial designer: yes , uh , okay . um w after it 's being composed by the chip uh the signal uh is transported uh to the infra-red bulb , and from there it signals a morse code-like signal to the to the b to the bulb in uh in the television set . okay . s uh i wrote down some personal preferences about uh the remote control . of course it is very handy if the remote control is hand held , so you do n't have to uh uh wind it up or something , or just is it 's it 's very light to uh to make uh to use it . uh i personally uh pref prefer that uh it would be p uh come available in the various colours , and uh easy to use buttons . but i suppose that the one of the other team members uh uh thought of that uh too . user interface: yeah , i 've got it there too . industrial designer: and it is possible for several designs and um easy to use b uh sorry , easy to use buttons . perhaps soft touch , uh touch screen uh buttons because uh the rubber buttons are always uh uh they uh slightly uh they can be slightly damaged , marketing: industrial designer: uh so the numbers on the buttons are not possible uh to read anymore . and uh well as i said uh before th uh we can uh make several designs . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay , well , that 's my contribution to this meeting , and uh marketing: to this meeting . project manager: okay , thank you . user interface: industrial designer: two of these this meeting . so . user interface: shall i go uh next ? project manager: yep . user interface: 'kay . project manager: please . user interface: so . marketing: smoking . user interface: well uh , my name 's , and i looked at uh technical functions design of the remote . uh i did this by uh looking at examples of other remote controls , of how they uh they look , and information from the web that i found . um well what i found was that uh th the actual use of the remote control is to send messages to television set , how you uh d what you described uh just early . and this can be all sorts of medsa messages , turn it on , turn it off , uh change the channel , adjust volume , that kind of thing . uh play video , teletext , but also t uh play c_d_ if you use it your c_d_ player the remote control will that one . there are some uh examples of remote controls . you can see they are very different . the one has got all the functions that you could possibly need and an lot of uh buttons etcetera . and the other is uh more user friendly , little with big buttons . and uh not n all the the the the stuff you can do with it , but uh the the essential stuff is there . um i guess you could better y you should look at a a user centred uh approach , because the customers have to use them and and if they do n't think it 's usable they wo n't uh buy it . a lot of buttons they may think from i do n't need s as much as that . uh , well perf personal preferences is is uh a simple remote , with uh the basic functions that you can need that you could use . but uh keep in mind the new functions of tv what we discussed earlier , split screen and uh is that a function that you should have ? because all the tvs will have them . or because of only a few and is n't really necessary . and then uh make it i would make so that you can could uh use it on more than one appliance . if you have one that uh uh does with the vi the the video , it could also work with uh with the stereo , because play is play and stop stop and that sort of thing . the shu c you could reuse the buttons so that you do n't have to have a lot of buttons for uh anything . and it should be a user friendly , clear buttons , and not too much . and that is my presentation . project manager: okay , thank you . industrial designer: okay . marketing: 'kay . check . industrial designer: user interface: you must still have it open . marketing: kijke 'kay , so . we 're going to j discuss the functional requirements of the remote , that m that means that functions user n want to have on the remote control , or just yeah , and the users , actually . industrial designer: marketing: the methods i i prefer is we 're going to look which section of the users we are going to focus a l on more . are the younger people going to buy the remote control or the elderly people ? and then tho that section we 're going to focus and adjust the remote more to that section than the whole user section . okay . some data . younger people , from sixteen to thir forty five um years are more interested in fj features like lcd screens , speech recognition e etcetera . and we possess about two third of the market from in that range of age . the elderly people , from forty five years to sixty five years are not that much interested in features , and we possess less than two third , that 's two fifth , of the market share in that area . goed so . project manager: industrial designer: hmm . marketing: 'kay . findings . fifty percent of the users lose their remote often . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: so we do n't have to make it very small , like uh like a mobile phone or something , but some somewhat bi bigger than small , so you do n't lose it that much anymore . seventy five percent of the users also find it ugly , industrial designer: mm . marketing: and fif seventy five of the users zap a lot , so the buttons sh should be that small , or should n't be that complex because we have to search for the buttons , which one are you going to use . next . important issues about the remote . i think it would be better with a personal reference , but okay . remote control has to have to have a low power usage , because s w seventy five percent of the users only zap one time an hour , so the power usage is also one one time an hour , or so , with a high power usage we would use a lot of but batteries . the volume button and the channel buttons are the two most important buttons on the remote control , so those they those have to h be find very easily . and have to be somewhat like bigger etcetera . it has also be have to find easily when the label is gone . my colleague also announced it that labels should be scratched off industrial designer: mm . user interface: hmm . marketing: or would be s uh senden user interface: marketing: okay . so uh if that 's k uh if that 's the problem , you also have to find it easily on the remote . buttons . like what all colleagues said , have to have to be minimalized . or should be covered , or in lcd screen . lcd screen is easy because we have the lcd screen , we have the various options . put one option and then you have the all the buttons of that options , so the other options would be gone . and you do n't see the buttons . so lcd screens should be easy , but an lcd screen , the problem with the l_ sc lcd screen is that elderly people fr from forty five to for sixty five years do n't use the lcd screen a lot . so we have to that keep that in mind that if you 're going to implement lcd screen , you do n't have to make it that hard to learn or to use . industrial designer: uh lcd screen as in uh touch screen ? marketing: yeah , touch screen , yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: the last but not least , younger people are more critical about the features . because they use the remote control often more often , and are more technical than the ol older people . and the older people spend more money , and easily on a remote control . user interface: mm . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: so we have to keep in mind to to focus not a lot not that much on the younger pep younger people , but also somewhat on the elderly people . and on my personal preferences , i do n't have any mo more time to come with that , user interface: marketing: but like i said , lcd screen is easily to use industrial designer: marketing: because you have you can implement a lot of buttons in one remote with not that much buttons . and it should be easy to use . especially the volume buttons , the channel buttes buttons and the number buttons to zap through the channels . and that is it . project manager: okay , industrial designer: okay . project manager: thank you . user interface: oh right . project manager: um , well thank you all , huh . i dunno uh did everyone receive an email with uh the new project requirements ? user interface: no . res i did not . project manager: no ? well , user interface: perhaps the rest ? industrial designer: no . project manager: then i think it 's a good thing that i made a separate slide of them marketing: ja , project manager: so you can all read them . oh , well not in this presentation . hmm user interface: project manager: should be in there . well , i can tell you them uh from my laptop . um teletext does has become outdated since the popularity of the internet . user interface: oh . mm . project manager: so that 's uh the first thing we i think we should pay less attention to uh teletext . uh the remote control should only be used for the television , otherwise the project becomes more complex , which endangers the time to market , and of course would make it more costly , i think . um our current customers are within the age group of forty plus , and new product should reach a new market with customers that are younger than forty , and you talked about that before . and uh a last point , but also very important , our corporate image should stay recognisable in our products , which means that our uh corporate colour and slogan must be implemented in the new design . so we have to keep that in mind . um well uh according to our agenda it 's then time to take a decision on the remote control functions . so , who has any idea about what should be on it , and what should n't ? user interface: well you said it should only uh work with one appliance ? marketing: be television . user interface: or with one uh d che only the tv ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . only be used for television . user interface: and the video also , or not uh ? project manager: well it says only for television here , huh . marketing: only the television . user interface: oh . alright . okay . project manager: makes it a lot easier , huh ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm . marketing: so yeah , then you can yeah . requirements , no ? functions . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then it should have uh on , off , industrial designer: yeah for user interface: and uh industrial designer: standby options , marketing: yeah , the basics then by a volume , channel , one till two zero numbers on it , industrial designer: yeah ? uh yeah . user interface: yeah . and per perhaps uh marketing: oh teletext does n't have to be ? user interface: no . marketing: um other functions . user interface: well uh uh yes yes s sh a button where you can uh change from one number to two numbers . marketing: yeah i had industrial designer: two s two two digits , marketing: yeah , yeah . user interface: can you industrial designer: oh okay . user interface: do n't know if that 's got a name , industrial designer: yeah i understand what you mean . yeah . user interface: but marketing: i think it 's i think it 's easy to implement a button with a s s what which especially do that , because some tvs , if you press the t one and then the two , it be between five secs it make twelve , industrial designer: it makes it twelve , yeah . user interface: yeah . s industrial designer: indeed . okay . marketing: and that 's that 's not relaxed industrial designer: well , not really marketing: to user . industrial designer: and and there are some models that do n't uh accommodate that function . so marketing: yeah . industrial designer: d uh wh the philip 's television makes it possible in that indeed to uh press one and then two to make uh the uh tj to reach channel twelve . marketing: so that it easy and fast . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but uh all the television makes uh use of those button where you first press that button and then press two digits to uh to get marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah , so you should have that one on . industrial designer: uh yeah , think so . marketing: our main targets ' age are ? were ? forty five plus , or ? user interface: mute misschien also . project manager: uh well industrial designer: mm . project manager: new product should reach a market with customers that are younger than forty , and now we have current customers uh of forty plus . marketing: forties , okay because because younger people as uh younger people have now , sixteen till to twenty five age , are f eighty one percent interested in lcd screen . from twenty six to thirty five have sixty six percent , and thirty six to forty five , fifty five percent , so i think to um because on most recog remote controls um the print plate will be broken how much , two years . you have to press h very hard to go to the next channel . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: with the lcd screen it 's easier because you only have to wipe the screen to uh for fingerprint , industrial designer: yeah , we we could yeah . but i think that uh that collides with our mission to make it very cheap . marketing: and then you can use it again . industrial designer: because lcd screens are very expensive . marketing: yeah , okay . user interface: an industrial designer: a touch screen uh probably uh even more . marketing: yeah but a you do n't know industrial designer: so , marketing: true . industrial designer: true , true . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: but uh well um is it possible to make an lcd screen uh , how was the information ? marketing: yeah , it only says that this perce percentage like lcd screen . because , yeah and it says that younger age between sixteen and forty five highly interesting features more critical . industrial designer: so perhaps we should we should focus on that lcd screen . marketing: and if the only f yeah , because our target is sixteen to forty five . user interface: but , do you industrial designer: yeah but uh will we not uh exceed our uh our uh production uh marketing: yeah you do n't know how much it costs . yeah , you do n't know how much it costs , the lcd screen . industrial designer: is it possible to find out , anyway ? marketing: no , i do n't have any costs here , industrial designer: you know ? marketing: i only have percentages . user interface: but if you would do an lcd screen do we have don do n't you have any buttons ? or because if it only directs at the tv , then you only have uh i do n't know what you want to do with the lcd screen . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: no , an lcd screen 's just like uh like a drawn here . um just uh displays several buttons , user interface: yeah ? industrial designer: for example um if you wanted the minimal uh use b uh buttons , such as channel and volume , you just h uh displays four buttons on the screen user interface: oh right , so you can industrial designer: and it 's possible to p uh press them down , just like a touch screen . user interface: oh , yeah alright . so you can adjust which buttons you want on that s screen . industrial designer: yeah , we can make it possible to do that , yeah . marketing: yeah , if you want to adjust , like for example , adjust the audio settings , you press audio on the touchscreen industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: and you get the buttons for audio settings , user interface: yeah alright , oh right . marketing: so the other buttons are gone . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: so we 're going for an lcd screen ? user interface: yeah . would be yeah . marketing: i think it 's the most easier thing , industrial designer: that 's my uh project manager: and hoping that when we produce a lot it wo n't be too expensive . marketing: yeah . user interface: well we had twelve fifty , i guess , for uh production ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: no . yeah . industrial designer: twelve fifty . marketing: industrial designer: um . user interface: any guesses ? industrial designer: marketing: industrial designer: well i suppose wi if the mar if our um if the i if the young people are interested in lcd screens , we should make 'em . marketing: highly . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and if that is our d uh market share to uh and our goal to uh deliver those uh remote controls user interface: but but he also said that we should not only focus on the younger people , but also on the older , and will they use it if it only has an lcd screen ? marketing: yeah , but um , s forty six to forty five , thirty three percent , and sixty fifty six to sixty five twelve percent . user interface: oh , so still a little bit people marketing: but our our our what 's it , project requirements are the new products should be reached for new markets , to customers that are younger than forty . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah that 's right . but you do n't want to alienate the other uh marketing: no , that not now , but , so user interface: but if they also buy it then it 's alright . i guess . marketing: yeah , but market share fro for for forty years and younger is higher than that of sixty five and younger . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . alright . project manager: okay , so lcd it is ? user interface: an yes . project manager: okay . industrial designer: mm . it 's treasure . project manager: and what else ? industrial designer: i hope we uh h and let 's hope to reach those uh those sales . marketing: yeah , i i if it yeah , if it costs gets too much , too expensive , then yeah , we should be sticking to rubber buttons . project manager: user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , can you um uh s i think that that they will send you some information about uh the cost of lcd uh screens . user interface: yeah . marketing: n nothing , no costs at all . user interface: but perhaps later , industrial designer: uh so if you uh user interface: so uh industrial designer: yeah , so if you uh you receive an email about that , uh can you post it in the or should n't we post that in uh our projects mail uh folder . marketing: yeah , in user interface: yeah . marketing: i think that should yeah i think we all get the costs of everything . user interface: i do n't industrial designer: because you are the the marketing uh expert . marketing: yeah , okay , i 'll i 'll post it . industrial designer: i uh user interface: well perhaps we should have a backup plan that we would use buttons if it 's uh too expensive . industrial designer: yeah sure , sure . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , okay . but for now it 's lcd . okay . marketing: okay , lcd , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: then you have the seventy five percent of users find it r ugly . industrial designer: user interface: the lcd ? oh that 's a bit of a problem . marketing: yeah , and eighty percent of the users would spend more money with a when a remote would look fancy . user interface: oh , that 's a bit of a problem . industrial designer: mm . marketing: tha i l i it 'll look fancy with lcd screen . yeah . industrial designer: it 's looks fancy one yeah , of lcd screen . user interface: yeah , but they do n't they do n't like it . project manager: yeah . user interface: they think it 's ugly . when it has an lcd screen . marketing: yeah , just a the plain remotes , not not specific lcd remotes . user interface: oh , alright , i thought that you said that . project manager: yeah , and maybe you can make something fancy out of an lcd remote , marketing: so project manager: because it 's new , as far as i know . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: industrial designer: mm yeah . marketing: yeah , of course . industrial designer: and then not yeah . marketing: and then you have the other thing , that seventy five percent zap a lot , but that 's not a f question with the lcd screen . industrial designer: um . yeah . marketing: only thing you have to do is wipe the screen off once each time , to get all the fingerprints off it . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm . okay ? project manager: okay , what else does our remote need ? user interface: a mute button . marketing: um project manager: mute button . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i think . and marketing: the most important things on a f on an on an uh remote control are channel selection , volume con selection , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and power s power usage . user interface: yeah . marketing: and a teletext , but that is not of the question . user interface: but but should n't you put a button of for teletext on the for the people who want to use it ? marketing: other things are sorry ? user interface: remembering we have got a big remote that you have to fill . marketing: yeah , it could be . yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . yeah , and we could make an a a separate menu on the lcd uh screen for teletext . marketing: yeah , teletext . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and there 's also a marketing: and other other less important things are screen settings , audio settings , and channel settings , user interface: yeah , they are less important , but i think they should be there , marketing: less important . user interface: or not ? marketing: yeah , should be there , industrial designer: a sh marketing: but not press industrial designer: but in a sub sub-menu or something like that . marketing: yeah , sub-menu , yeah . industrial designer: uh i think it 's also important to uh make it possible to um how do you call it in english , uh , to not use batteries , and use ac uh bat uh batteries to uh to be project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: like with a with a mouse , you have not , yeah . industrial designer: yeah yeah sure . indeed . so uh you can mount uh the the the uh marketing: yeah , in a breath it 's industrial designer: uh the remote control to um project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: charted . user interface: we should think of the twelve fifty we have industrial designer: to refill the user interface: but marketing: yeah , user interface: i do n't know how much that 's going to uh marketing: but we do n't we do n't have any costs now , industrial designer: yeah . okay , marketing: so yeah . industrial designer: because i uh when you get an lcd screen , you run it on batteries , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: the batteries will be uh empty very soon , very fast . marketing: yeah e e power supply is one of the most important things . user interface: you should perhaps you should be able to to switch the control off . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: if you have an lcd screen that 's burns all the time i dunno . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . yeah . user interface: you should n't on and off because that 's ver extra , that you have t first you have to turn the remote on , and then you can uh project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: i do n't know . industrial designer: uh marketing: yeah , i think it 's it 's not that easy because i do n't think people will like it who who uh that you have to turn it on first and then use it , user interface: nee that 's that 's uh yeah . marketing: so i think it 's better when th the tv shuts down , the remote shuts down . user interface: but then you ca n't industrial designer: and go to standby mode when you do n't use it , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so that marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah yeah au automac matically , that it yeah . industrial designer: yeah , automatically . after two minutes or three minutes , something like that . marketing: yeah . after two minutes , yeah two three minutes , yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . and maybe a low battery indicator ? on the screen . industrial designer: yeah . sure . project manager: marketing: yeah . user interface: marketing: and then b that uh industrial designer: marketing: before an hour when its get again gets empty . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: then you have plenty of time to recharge it , industrial designer: mm . marketing: of put it in a recharger . charger . project manager: so we are going for the for the recharger . user interface: project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , if it 's . uh . user interface: if it 's sensible . marketing: yeah , because when you 're watching tv , you 're zapping and you have to put it in a recharger , user interface: yeah . yeah , b when the batteries are low industrial designer: no , marketing: and i do n't think it industrial designer: when you when you 're done with s uh w uh watching your television , you have to put it marketing: yeah , okay , but then we have to be sure that the the the the batteries go hours , six hours , five , six hours , then . user interface: but you 'll also forget to put it in , industrial designer: yeah sure , of course . user interface: because you throw it on the couch industrial designer: yeah , marketing: yeah , industrial designer: but marketing: then you have a problem . user interface: and you do n't remember . industrial designer: but you also forget to buy batteries , user interface: yeah . that 's right . industrial designer: and then you can you ca n't use it , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so i marketing: or we have to be sure that the batteries last couple of days when they 're recharged . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: well i think the batteries should should w should work a lot longer than a couple of days , marketing: so . user interface: or not ? marketing: yeah because you have b user interface: 'cause marketing: but you have lcd screen . user interface: yeah , that 's right , but marketing: high power usage . industrial designer: high power user cell , i uh it should be uh a standard move to to put your remote control in the charger when you 're done watching television , marketing: yes . industrial designer: that 's also a a a great advantage because you ca n't lose it anymore . because you are obliged to uh put it in the charger and not to uh leave it in a couch uh between some cushions . marketing: true . yeah . yeah . true . user interface: yeah . right . industrial designer: okay . marketing: yeah , you made a point there . user interface: but then you also have to s have somewhere where you can put a remo recharger near your couch project manager: yeah , also . user interface: because otherwise you have to walk a long way when you twoft want to turn on the tv . marketing: yeah , otherwise all your yeah . just a small device . user interface: yeah . i think everything has it for and i guess . industrial designer: yeah it has n't it does n't have to be big . marketing: plug it in , that 's it . yeah , like a like telephone charger or something . industrial designer: yeah just just a cable , or a even a a a a a charger where you can mount it on . something like that , marketing: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: just u user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . user interface: alright . project manager: okay , well i 've marketing: it has to be easy to use also , or things . uh market share , speaker re speech recognition . project manager: yeah , you have some more user interface: project manager: points . industrial designer: functional designs uh for the elderly uh you could make it possible to enlarge the screen , marketing: i think . industrial designer: so make it possible to not uh display uh a button at ten points marketing: also . industrial designer: uh , or marketing: well i think that this should be standard . large button large buttons . industrial designer: yeah but it is uh one of the functions you have to uh specify . marketing: yeah ? okay . industrial designer: because we can look at uh uh perhaps uh forty buttons at a screen , but the elderly only look at two buttons . project manager: marketing: industrial designer: okay . marketing: . project manager: and you said something about speech recognition ? marketing: yeah , industrial designer: speech recognition ? marketing: it says also industrial designer: hello . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , industrial designer: twelve euro user interface: twelve fifty , twelve fifty . industrial designer: twelve euro fifty . marketing: twelve . that 's an also ninety one percent sixteen to twenty five , twenty six to thirty five years , seventy six percent , and thirty six to forty five , thirty five percent . user interface: so it 's pretty big . industrial designer: well , spread it by a big market . marketing: but then i i i project manager: even bigger than for lcd . user interface: yeah . w i know let 's do a speech . industrial designer: well marketing: yeah . industrial designer: let 's leave out all the remote controls and just put a microphone on top of the television to user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah . ninety . twenty five . user interface: you can clap or something . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: channel . industrial designer: turn volume up . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: hey , that that 's an idea . marketing: user interface: now you should n't say the wrong thing , i dunno . industrial designer: okay , well marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that should it has to be remote control , not marketing: yeah , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: twelve . user interface: but they want to talk into the remo remote control , or something , industrial designer: sure why not why not marketing: yeah . user interface: or ? marketing: is this only would you would you pay more for speech recognition in a remote control . it 's the only thing it says . industrial designer: yeah , mm . user interface: oh , but do we want to implement that , or ? marketing: i think an lcd screen should be suf sufficient . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: but when you look at the percentages marketing: yeah , it says a lot , but project manager: speech recognition scores even higher , huh ? industrial designer: perhaps the options should be uh why not ? user interface: project manager: yeah , well , industrial designer: why not ? project manager: maybe because of the cost , but uh nobody knows uh how much uh it will cost uh . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: let 's hope uh to have some uh d user interface: i know marketing: no i think i think it 's better to have l_ lcd screen , because in the area of tw thirty six to forty five , we have about thirty percent of the market share in in our hands , and fifty five of those people want lcd screen and thirty five want speech recognition . so i think it 's better to keep it with lcd screen . project manager: but would it be useful to imple implement both ? user interface: mm . project manager: on one remote ? marketing: yeah , if the costs al allow it . project manager: or user interface: well project manager: yeah , i dunno . user interface: i do n't know if that can be done with the cost of twelve fifty . marketing: nee . user interface: with that uh marketing: if it should be done , if it could be done , i wo n't matter . yeah . user interface: yeah , industrial designer: we should do it . yeah . sure . user interface: but how would you like to implement that , that you say volume up , and then it goes up , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: or ? marketing: yeah . user interface: uh . industrial designer: certain systems already exist , i think . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: then you also have to have different languages if we go international . then uh it 's y it 's yours to do a french and dutch and english marketing: true . industrial designer: true , yeah . marketing: yeah . true . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but that should also be with f should be also with lcd screen . industrial designer: this should be uh accommodated with some software , uh , uh . yeah . marketing: because then i think in chinese is different written , volume is different written than um swahili or something . user interface: yeah , that 's right . yeah . industrial designer: right . swahili . swahili . user interface: yeah you can use icons for the industrial designer: yeah . user interface: a speaker and uh marketing: ja , well possible . industrial designer: indeed . user interface: but if that 's better than language for the for the remote . marketing: yeah , yeah yeah yeah industrial designer: yeah . so we want to uh yeah it 's international uh okay . user interface: then it 's yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: 'kay , what else ? project manager: so , no speech recognition ? or user interface: well , if it could be done , we marketing: yeah , industrial designer: y it should be done . if it could be done , should be done . marketing: we have to keep yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , and then we have different languages . user interface: yeah , that should be uh anything matters . industrial designer: that 's not so difficult at all , project manager: okay , just make a separate remote for each uh industrial designer: because i already use on several voice operated systems , and they are all possible to uh not all , but user interface: well , you sh you should to adjust the thing . marketing: i think it 's difficult . every language of dialects user interface: yeah . marketing: i think it 's very differen difficult . user interface: and you have to speak the so that it can understand . marketing: yeah . i think it ca n't be implemented , but maybe user interface: you could use that n as an option , if you have money left , or something . marketing: yeah , 's an option , yes . industrial designer: yeah , sure , indeed . marketing: fifty euro cents . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: user interface: let 's do speech . industrial designer: for speech recognition . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , so we only do this when we have enough money left . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . well i 've written down an an on or off button , volume selection , channel selection , uh the digits from one to zero , huh . um or from zero to nine . uh a digits button to switch uh between one and two digits , mute button , a separate menu for teletext , a battery indicator . um we 're going to use a docking station and uh probably lcd and if there 's enough money , speech recognition . and uh the possibility to uh enlarge buttons or to have large buttons user interface: mm . yeah . marketing: mm , yes . project manager: in general . user interface: i with uh teletext if it was n't ver very important , it was but marketing: no , but user interface: you also now have colours . i do n't know if we should implement that . yeah , marketing: curved ? user interface: when you press the red button , you go to page one hundred two , and when you press the industrial designer: uh yeah . user interface: i do n't know if we should implement that , marketing: um . user interface: because it says that teletext not really important , industrial designer: s shortcuts . uh . user interface: but yeah , the shortcut , and you ca n't go to sport . marketing: i think we should we could that we could also implement a audio settings , screen settings and channel settings , but as sub-menus . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm . marketing: d mainly if you turn the uh remote control on , you have to u you have to see from one till zero , channel and volume . and if you want to use teletext screen or audio , then you can press it . industrial designer: sh yeah , just just sub-menu . yeah . marketing: it should be available but not user interface: 'cause it should be there . industrial designer: not directly uh available . marketing: not yeah . yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: okay , so not too much teletext support , but in a separate menu , and industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah . user interface: so actually it is there but it 's just not r ready there . marketing: yeah , but s industrial designer: directly available . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so does it confuse uh the user ? user interface: you 'll have to search for it . marketing: they 'd have to be easy to use . industrial designer: uh . i 'll search um . user interface: industrial designer: if you want to use teletext , you can push the teletext button and then the options uh become available . user interface: yeah . yeah , that 's a marketing: the sign of it . project manager: okay , but no more buttons or functions , or ? user interface: i guess not . industrial designer: no . marketing: uh , no . what else can you do with a television ? user interface: we 've got anon project manager: are n't we forgetting something very important ? user interface: have got got two examples here , but i do n't think there 's anything we 're missing . marketing: uh play , pause , does n't n need to be there . user interface: well , we do n't have the video orders marketing: yes , so this is your presentation . we could check the other remote controls with technical functions . user interface: yeah , you could look here all the the marketing: which ones were yours ? user interface: uh th th th th i do n't know , technical functions . marketing: techni user interface: they 're a bit small , you can we should stretch them , because project manager: ping . marketing: ja ja ja ja ja . technical functions . yeah okay . user interface: i guess we 've got them all . marketing: uh i think i go to have volume , mute but i yeah . very slow . yeah , the zoom buttons . user interface: and for a tv ? can you zoom in a tv ? marketing: yeah , b wide screen , high screen , different things you have , user interface: or that you can put 'em on uh on on wide and marketing: yeah different uh user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: but that should also be a sub then , a sub uh menu thing . industrial designer: menu . marketing: yeah it should be available , but then in separate screen settings or something . user interface: yeah , so we should also implement se screen settings . industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah , screen settings , audio settings , teletext settings you have . user interface: oh right . yeah . marketing: channel settings . user interface: yeah , so you can program the marketing: so those four , and of course the main . user interface: yeah , so the first you see the main , and the other ones you can uh go to uh marketing: yeah . yeah . like tap screens or something user interface: yeah . marketing: or , i dunno . user interface: i hope we can do this . marketing: something industrial designer: there are a lot of options depending uh on what kind of television you got . marketing: yeah , if uh industrial designer: 'cause if you do n't got a wide screen television you do n't need the uh the screen settings marketing: no , you do n't yu a no you then you do n't no ni do n't industrial designer: uh for uh marketing: then you do n't use it . industrial designer: yeah and if the television does not support such uh operations marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we do n't have to use that top . yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so you leave it alone . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . or it could be possible to have a a standard version of the remote , an expanded version . user interface: yeah . and do we want them in different colours , or marketing: yeah . user interface: and and the buttons , should they have colours ? marketing: colours . yeah . industrial designer: colours i think the main colour of the remote control is uh the colour of the lcd screen . user interface: oh but we do n't have any buttons . yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i because we do n't want a lot a devi yeah a device self s g marketing: yeah , then defines itself . because uh how many percent ? eighty percent ? user interface: they think it 's ugly , right ? marketing: would spend more money if it looks fancy . industrial designer: okay , so use uh very uh lot of peo user interface: perhaps you can uh make adjustable fronts , like with the telephones . industrial designer: adjust with phones , yes user interface: you can uh but i do n't think that uh industrial designer: okay . twelve euro fifty . well , make it available in different colours , you mean ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: sure . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: red , white , blue , black . user interface: project manager: and a see-through uh marketing: rasta colours . industrial designer: grey . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah sea view , yes , simpson 's versions and marketing: yeah , see through version . yeah . if you press a button , it turns green . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , well industrial designer: leave . project manager: that 's the user interface: a disco version . project manager: signal for las final five minutes . user interface: five minutes ? project manager: um so i have uh the things i just read . um then we have uh separate menus for teletext , screen settings , audio settings , and what else ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: channel settings ? user interface: oh yeah , right . project manager: channel settings . user interface: so you can program the tv . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: mm . user interface: perhaps you should you 'd throw them on on in one pile . so , options , and then you sub them . marketing: yeah . could be possible . user interface: otherwise you have all those teletext , perhaps teletext not , industrial designer: mm . user interface: but marketing: or like uh you have a menu button , you press project manager: no , we said teletext also a separate menu . user interface: yeah , but i marketing: yeah , or otherwise you have a menu button , press menu then you have uh main uh menu search uh all the all the settings . user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay , but we can work that out later , i guess . user interface: but marketing: yeah , no problem . yep . project manager: so we 're having a a general menu with the most used functions , uh teletext , screen settings , audio settings , channel settings , and maybe there are options for the remote itself ? like uh large icons or small icons user interface: i do n't know . project manager: and i do n't know what else , marketing: um , project manager: but industrial designer: no . marketing: i think b because we do n't have a lot of buttons on the one screen , user interface: or do we have any buttons ? on the remote . marketing: i think the buttons yeah , but but or like you have user interface: which one ? marketing: you only have channel button or volume button . those buttons you can you can project manager: yeah , but on the lcd , user interface: but that 's also in the lcd , project manager: huh ? user interface: right ? marketing: yeah . project manager: right , yeah , okay . user interface: so we do n't have any normal buttons marketing: yeah , th user interface: that uh marketing: no , no normal buttons , yeah . user interface: no , alright . marketing: maybe only the on and o on and off button . user interface: yet on and off is p is perhaps you kno project manager: but we do n't need a special industrial designer: uh not button marketing: but i do n't think project manager: we do n't need a special options menu for the remote itself . user interface: no , no . marketing: mm , no . project manager: okay . user interface: oh well , you should be able to set which tv you have . if you have if you have uh industrial designer: yeah sure , of course you need uh a settings button , uh or a settings option for the remote control . user interface: yeah . but is n't idea to use uh uh what you said , uh normal on and off button for the tv , that you do n't have to use a marketing: no no no , because we we discussed that you could charge it , otherwise is it it jumps to stand-by mode automatically . user interface: yeah but but not for the remote but for the tv , that you use marketing: yeah , but a tv of course , th that 's the i think that 's a best thing is that to implement that one in the menu with the volume and channel . user interface: but a not as normal button , in the lcd , marketing: no . project manager: well maybe there should be a separate button apart from the lcd , user interface: yeah . project manager: because you ca n't turn it on when the lcd is off . so how do you turn the thing on ? there has to be a on button on the remote , user interface: no you just tap i think . project manager: huh ? industrial designer: just tap it . marketing: yeah , you tap . project manager: tap the thing . okay . marketing: touch screen , yeah then it 's turn turn off , turn on . project manager: and then the television is on also , or just the remote ? marketing: no , just the remote . user interface: but marketing: a television do n't have to be on , that one you can press on , industrial designer: yeah , it should be in standby mode , but marketing: yeah stand-by , then press on remote , press on and then tv should be available . or not . user interface: yeah a yeah . i do n't know whether it 's handy to have a n a normal on button , a r just uh rubber uh for for tv , marketing: separate . user interface: so you can turn it on and then you can choose the channel . otherwise you i do n't know whether or not that 's industrial designer: a a a normal button on the remote control , user interface: yeah , yeah . to turn it on . industrial designer: or norm ? user interface: of or you should put it in the lcd screen . industrial designer: yeah , because uh when you touch the lcd screen when it is in standby mode , it should pop on . user interface: yeah , i have , project manager: okay , well user interface: yeah . industrial designer: wh uh why would it be a a need to have a normal button ? user interface: well i i guess if you use the lcd screen , you first have to search where is the on button , then you uh you you then turn it , and then the tv goes on . but if you have a normal on button on the on the remote , then you do the on , and then you search the channel which you want . marketing: yeah , but i think the re the remote control , if you press tap the screen , it always should jump to the screen which has the volume button , channel button , and of course of also the on and off button . industrial designer: mm . user interface: oh right . industrial designer: i think it looks a lot more fancy if you use uh if you do n't have any buttons on the s on on remote control . user interface: yeah , i think so too . otherwise y wet e k yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so actually we 're going to create a a button-less uh remote . no buttons at all . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , well that 's might be a unique selling point , huh for a remote . user interface: if we can afford it . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , well i guess we have to industrial designer: oh , okay marketing: yeah , if we can afford it . yeah . project manager: postpone further discussion to uh our next meeting , because we 're running out of time . um for now , we 're having a lunch break , industrial designer: oh . project manager: and then there will be uh half an hour for the uh next share of individual work . i will uh write uh minutes , if i can create them out of this . and uh put them in the the project documents uh folder . user interface: industrial designer: mm . project manager: and here are the individual actions for the for the other roles . and of course specific instructions will be sent to you again by your uh personal coach . user interface: alright . project manager: luckily as we are . okay , well user interface: project manager: thank you very much , for now , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh have a nice lunch , huh ? user interface: lunch . industrial designer: okay . user interface: industrial designer: food . user interface: should we put this back in our rooms , or uh ? industrial designer: yeah , think so . user interface: yeah .

industrial designer expressed initial working design about remote control . user interface suggested that remote control should be user friendly with not too much but clear buttons . marketing showed us data about functional requirement remote control . project manager said that the new requirement about remote control was teletext should be paid less attention as it was outdated . future customers ' age should be focused on forty plus and new design should include corporate colour and slogan .

what did marketing think about functional requirements about remote control ? </s> project manager: good morning , again . industrial designer: one question . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: send . user interface: choose a number ? industrial designer: submit . marketing: yep yep yep yep . project manager: all set ? industrial designer: mm . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: good . okay . let 's see what we can find here . okay . a very warm welcome again to everyone . user interface: project manager: um here we are already at our uh functional design meeting . um and this is what we are going to do . the opening , which we are doing now , um and the special note , i 'm project manager but on the meetings i 'm also the secretary , which means i will make uh minutes as i did of the previous meeting . industrial designer: project manager: and uh i also put these as fast as possible in the uh project folder , so you can see them and review what we have discussed . um if i 'm right , there are three presentations , i guess each one of you has prepared one ? good . user interface: yes . project manager: and um we will also take a look at new project requirements , um if you have n't heard about them yet . and then of course we have to take a decision on the remote control functions and we have some more time , forty minutes . but i think we will need it . um well i do n't know who wants to go first with his presentation . industrial designer: i 'll go first . okay . i 'll go first yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: you can go first , okay . user interface: well . marketing: well , shall i go first with the users ? user interface: well marketing: i think well okay no problem . project manager: is there an order ? i have n't user interface: everybody already has his presentation , marketing: ja precies , ja precies , ja precies user interface: so you can adjust it . industrial designer: so . huh ? okay , um project manager: and one question , uh your name denni , is it with a marketing: e_i_e_ . project manager: i_e_ e_i_e_ , okay . thank you . user interface: industrial designer: okay , um i wanted to explain the working design of the remote control . it 's possibly very handy if you want to uh design one of those . um well so it basically works uh as i uh uh r wrote down uh in this uh little uh summary . uh when you press a button , uh that 's when you do pr for example when you uh want to turn up the volume , um a little connection is made uh the the rubber uh button just presses on a project manager: sorry . marketing: user interface: industrial designer: on a little print plate uh which uh makes uh uh a connection that uh gives the chips , uh which is uh mounted beneath those uh that plastic of a rubber button . uh senses that a connection has been made , and know and knows what button you pressed , becau uh for example the the volume up or volume down button . um uh the the chip uh makes a morse code uh like uh signal which uh then is si uh signalled to uh several transistors which makes uh which sends the signal to a little let . you know what a let is ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . and that makes uh the the infra-red lights signal which is sent to the television set . uh which has a sensor in it to uh sense uh the signal of the infra-red . that 's basically uh how it works . um the findings uh uh that i found uh searching up some uh detailed information about the remote controls , are that uh they are very easy to produce , uh it is pis uh it 's possible to uh make them in mass production because it is as eas it is as easy as uh printing a page , uh just uh fibreglass plate um is b uh is uh covered with uh some uh coatings and uh uh and chips . user interface: industrial designer: uh and the technology 's already available , we do n't have to find out how remote controls uh have to work or uh how that how uh to make some chips that are possible to uh to to transmit those uh signals . uh i made a little uh uh animation of about how a tran our uh remote controller works . user interface: marketing: user interface: oh right . marketing: animation . user interface: industrial designer: we tel user interface: there is something turning . industrial designer: there . project manager: yeah , it 's a little bug it 's in the in the smart board . industrial designer: okay . uh well user interface: industrial designer: the sub-component , i suppose that you understand what a sub-component is , is f in this example it 's the button . uh when it is pressed down , um , the switch is ter is uh is switched on , so with uh the wire is sent to the to the chip in uh co-operation with the battery of course , because to make uh a a signal possible you have to have some sort of uh li uh a d ad uh electronic uh user interface: marketing: infrared light . industrial designer: yes , uh , okay . um w after it 's being composed by the chip uh the signal uh is transported uh to the infra-red bulb , and from there it signals a morse code-like signal to the to the b to the bulb in uh in the television set . okay . s uh i wrote down some personal preferences about uh the remote control . of course it is very handy if the remote control is hand held , so you do n't have to uh uh wind it up or something , or just is it 's it 's very light to uh to make uh to use it . uh i personally uh pref prefer that uh it would be p uh come available in the various colours , and uh easy to use buttons . but i suppose that the one of the other team members uh uh thought of that uh too . user interface: yeah , i 've got it there too . industrial designer: and it is possible for several designs and um easy to use b uh sorry , easy to use buttons . perhaps soft touch , uh touch screen uh buttons because uh the rubber buttons are always uh uh they uh slightly uh they can be slightly damaged , marketing: industrial designer: uh so the numbers on the buttons are not possible uh to read anymore . and uh well as i said uh before th uh we can uh make several designs . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay , well , that 's my contribution to this meeting , and uh marketing: to this meeting . project manager: okay , thank you . user interface: industrial designer: two of these this meeting . so . user interface: shall i go uh next ? project manager: yep . user interface: 'kay . project manager: please . user interface: so . marketing: smoking . user interface: well uh , my name 's , and i looked at uh technical functions design of the remote . uh i did this by uh looking at examples of other remote controls , of how they uh they look , and information from the web that i found . um well what i found was that uh th the actual use of the remote control is to send messages to television set , how you uh d what you described uh just early . and this can be all sorts of medsa messages , turn it on , turn it off , uh change the channel , adjust volume , that kind of thing . uh play video , teletext , but also t uh play c_d_ if you use it your c_d_ player the remote control will that one . there are some uh examples of remote controls . you can see they are very different . the one has got all the functions that you could possibly need and an lot of uh buttons etcetera . and the other is uh more user friendly , little with big buttons . and uh not n all the the the the stuff you can do with it , but uh the the essential stuff is there . um i guess you could better y you should look at a a user centred uh approach , because the customers have to use them and and if they do n't think it 's usable they wo n't uh buy it . a lot of buttons they may think from i do n't need s as much as that . uh , well perf personal preferences is is uh a simple remote , with uh the basic functions that you can need that you could use . but uh keep in mind the new functions of tv what we discussed earlier , split screen and uh is that a function that you should have ? because all the tvs will have them . or because of only a few and is n't really necessary . and then uh make it i would make so that you can could uh use it on more than one appliance . if you have one that uh uh does with the vi the the video , it could also work with uh with the stereo , because play is play and stop stop and that sort of thing . the shu c you could reuse the buttons so that you do n't have to have a lot of buttons for uh anything . and it should be a user friendly , clear buttons , and not too much . and that is my presentation . project manager: okay , thank you . industrial designer: okay . marketing: 'kay . check . industrial designer: user interface: you must still have it open . marketing: kijke 'kay , so . we 're going to j discuss the functional requirements of the remote , that m that means that functions user n want to have on the remote control , or just yeah , and the users , actually . industrial designer: marketing: the methods i i prefer is we 're going to look which section of the users we are going to focus a l on more . are the younger people going to buy the remote control or the elderly people ? and then tho that section we 're going to focus and adjust the remote more to that section than the whole user section . okay . some data . younger people , from sixteen to thir forty five um years are more interested in fj features like lcd screens , speech recognition e etcetera . and we possess about two third of the market from in that range of age . the elderly people , from forty five years to sixty five years are not that much interested in features , and we possess less than two third , that 's two fifth , of the market share in that area . goed so . project manager: industrial designer: hmm . marketing: 'kay . findings . fifty percent of the users lose their remote often . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: so we do n't have to make it very small , like uh like a mobile phone or something , but some somewhat bi bigger than small , so you do n't lose it that much anymore . seventy five percent of the users also find it ugly , industrial designer: mm . marketing: and fif seventy five of the users zap a lot , so the buttons sh should be that small , or should n't be that complex because we have to search for the buttons , which one are you going to use . next . important issues about the remote . i think it would be better with a personal reference , but okay . remote control has to have to have a low power usage , because s w seventy five percent of the users only zap one time an hour , so the power usage is also one one time an hour , or so , with a high power usage we would use a lot of but batteries . the volume button and the channel buttons are the two most important buttons on the remote control , so those they those have to h be find very easily . and have to be somewhat like bigger etcetera . it has also be have to find easily when the label is gone . my colleague also announced it that labels should be scratched off industrial designer: mm . user interface: hmm . marketing: or would be s uh senden user interface: marketing: okay . so uh if that 's k uh if that 's the problem , you also have to find it easily on the remote . buttons . like what all colleagues said , have to have to be minimalized . or should be covered , or in lcd screen . lcd screen is easy because we have the lcd screen , we have the various options . put one option and then you have the all the buttons of that options , so the other options would be gone . and you do n't see the buttons . so lcd screens should be easy , but an lcd screen , the problem with the l_ sc lcd screen is that elderly people fr from forty five to for sixty five years do n't use the lcd screen a lot . so we have to that keep that in mind that if you 're going to implement lcd screen , you do n't have to make it that hard to learn or to use . industrial designer: uh lcd screen as in uh touch screen ? marketing: yeah , touch screen , yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: the last but not least , younger people are more critical about the features . because they use the remote control often more often , and are more technical than the ol older people . and the older people spend more money , and easily on a remote control . user interface: mm . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: so we have to keep in mind to to focus not a lot not that much on the younger pep younger people , but also somewhat on the elderly people . and on my personal preferences , i do n't have any mo more time to come with that , user interface: marketing: but like i said , lcd screen is easily to use industrial designer: marketing: because you have you can implement a lot of buttons in one remote with not that much buttons . and it should be easy to use . especially the volume buttons , the channel buttes buttons and the number buttons to zap through the channels . and that is it . project manager: okay , industrial designer: okay . project manager: thank you . user interface: oh right . project manager: um , well thank you all , huh . i dunno uh did everyone receive an email with uh the new project requirements ? user interface: no . res i did not . project manager: no ? well , user interface: perhaps the rest ? industrial designer: no . project manager: then i think it 's a good thing that i made a separate slide of them marketing: ja , project manager: so you can all read them . oh , well not in this presentation . hmm user interface: project manager: should be in there . well , i can tell you them uh from my laptop . um teletext does has become outdated since the popularity of the internet . user interface: oh . mm . project manager: so that 's uh the first thing we i think we should pay less attention to uh teletext . uh the remote control should only be used for the television , otherwise the project becomes more complex , which endangers the time to market , and of course would make it more costly , i think . um our current customers are within the age group of forty plus , and new product should reach a new market with customers that are younger than forty , and you talked about that before . and uh a last point , but also very important , our corporate image should stay recognisable in our products , which means that our uh corporate colour and slogan must be implemented in the new design . so we have to keep that in mind . um well uh according to our agenda it 's then time to take a decision on the remote control functions . so , who has any idea about what should be on it , and what should n't ? user interface: well you said it should only uh work with one appliance ? marketing: be television . user interface: or with one uh d che only the tv ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . only be used for television . user interface: and the video also , or not uh ? project manager: well it says only for television here , huh . marketing: only the television . user interface: oh . alright . okay . project manager: makes it a lot easier , huh ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm . marketing: so yeah , then you can yeah . requirements , no ? functions . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then it should have uh on , off , industrial designer: yeah for user interface: and uh industrial designer: standby options , marketing: yeah , the basics then by a volume , channel , one till two zero numbers on it , industrial designer: yeah ? uh yeah . user interface: yeah . and per perhaps uh marketing: oh teletext does n't have to be ? user interface: no . marketing: um other functions . user interface: well uh uh yes yes s sh a button where you can uh change from one number to two numbers . marketing: yeah i had industrial designer: two s two two digits , marketing: yeah , yeah . user interface: can you industrial designer: oh okay . user interface: do n't know if that 's got a name , industrial designer: yeah i understand what you mean . yeah . user interface: but marketing: i think it 's i think it 's easy to implement a button with a s s what which especially do that , because some tvs , if you press the t one and then the two , it be between five secs it make twelve , industrial designer: it makes it twelve , yeah . user interface: yeah . s industrial designer: indeed . okay . marketing: and that 's that 's not relaxed industrial designer: well , not really marketing: to user . industrial designer: and and there are some models that do n't uh accommodate that function . so marketing: yeah . industrial designer: d uh wh the philip 's television makes it possible in that indeed to uh press one and then two to make uh the uh tj to reach channel twelve . marketing: so that it easy and fast . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but uh all the television makes uh use of those button where you first press that button and then press two digits to uh to get marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah , so you should have that one on . industrial designer: uh yeah , think so . marketing: our main targets ' age are ? were ? forty five plus , or ? user interface: mute misschien also . project manager: uh well industrial designer: mm . project manager: new product should reach a market with customers that are younger than forty , and now we have current customers uh of forty plus . marketing: forties , okay because because younger people as uh younger people have now , sixteen till to twenty five age , are f eighty one percent interested in lcd screen . from twenty six to thirty five have sixty six percent , and thirty six to forty five , fifty five percent , so i think to um because on most recog remote controls um the print plate will be broken how much , two years . you have to press h very hard to go to the next channel . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: with the lcd screen it 's easier because you only have to wipe the screen to uh for fingerprint , industrial designer: yeah , we we could yeah . but i think that uh that collides with our mission to make it very cheap . marketing: and then you can use it again . industrial designer: because lcd screens are very expensive . marketing: yeah , okay . user interface: an industrial designer: a touch screen uh probably uh even more . marketing: yeah but a you do n't know industrial designer: so , marketing: true . industrial designer: true , true . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: but uh well um is it possible to make an lcd screen uh , how was the information ? marketing: yeah , it only says that this perce percentage like lcd screen . because , yeah and it says that younger age between sixteen and forty five highly interesting features more critical . industrial designer: so perhaps we should we should focus on that lcd screen . marketing: and if the only f yeah , because our target is sixteen to forty five . user interface: but , do you industrial designer: yeah but uh will we not uh exceed our uh our uh production uh marketing: yeah you do n't know how much it costs . yeah , you do n't know how much it costs , the lcd screen . industrial designer: is it possible to find out , anyway ? marketing: no , i do n't have any costs here , industrial designer: you know ? marketing: i only have percentages . user interface: but if you would do an lcd screen do we have don do n't you have any buttons ? or because if it only directs at the tv , then you only have uh i do n't know what you want to do with the lcd screen . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: no , an lcd screen 's just like uh like a drawn here . um just uh displays several buttons , user interface: yeah ? industrial designer: for example um if you wanted the minimal uh use b uh buttons , such as channel and volume , you just h uh displays four buttons on the screen user interface: oh right , so you can industrial designer: and it 's possible to p uh press them down , just like a touch screen . user interface: oh , yeah alright . so you can adjust which buttons you want on that s screen . industrial designer: yeah , we can make it possible to do that , yeah . marketing: yeah , if you want to adjust , like for example , adjust the audio settings , you press audio on the touchscreen industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: and you get the buttons for audio settings , user interface: yeah alright , oh right . marketing: so the other buttons are gone . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: so we 're going for an lcd screen ? user interface: yeah . would be yeah . marketing: i think it 's the most easier thing , industrial designer: that 's my uh project manager: and hoping that when we produce a lot it wo n't be too expensive . marketing: yeah . user interface: well we had twelve fifty , i guess , for uh production ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: no . yeah . industrial designer: twelve fifty . marketing: industrial designer: um . user interface: any guesses ? industrial designer: marketing: industrial designer: well i suppose wi if the mar if our um if the i if the young people are interested in lcd screens , we should make 'em . marketing: highly . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and if that is our d uh market share to uh and our goal to uh deliver those uh remote controls user interface: but but he also said that we should not only focus on the younger people , but also on the older , and will they use it if it only has an lcd screen ? marketing: yeah , but um , s forty six to forty five , thirty three percent , and sixty fifty six to sixty five twelve percent . user interface: oh , so still a little bit people marketing: but our our our what 's it , project requirements are the new products should be reached for new markets , to customers that are younger than forty . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah that 's right . but you do n't want to alienate the other uh marketing: no , that not now , but , so user interface: but if they also buy it then it 's alright . i guess . marketing: yeah , but market share fro for for forty years and younger is higher than that of sixty five and younger . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . alright . project manager: okay , so lcd it is ? user interface: an yes . project manager: okay . industrial designer: mm . it 's treasure . project manager: and what else ? industrial designer: i hope we uh h and let 's hope to reach those uh those sales . marketing: yeah , i i if it yeah , if it costs gets too much , too expensive , then yeah , we should be sticking to rubber buttons . project manager: user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , can you um uh s i think that that they will send you some information about uh the cost of lcd uh screens . user interface: yeah . marketing: n nothing , no costs at all . user interface: but perhaps later , industrial designer: uh so if you uh user interface: so uh industrial designer: yeah , so if you uh you receive an email about that , uh can you post it in the or should n't we post that in uh our projects mail uh folder . marketing: yeah , in user interface: yeah . marketing: i think that should yeah i think we all get the costs of everything . user interface: i do n't industrial designer: because you are the the marketing uh expert . marketing: yeah , okay , i 'll i 'll post it . industrial designer: i uh user interface: well perhaps we should have a backup plan that we would use buttons if it 's uh too expensive . industrial designer: yeah sure , sure . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , okay . but for now it 's lcd . okay . marketing: okay , lcd , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: then you have the seventy five percent of users find it r ugly . industrial designer: user interface: the lcd ? oh that 's a bit of a problem . marketing: yeah , and eighty percent of the users would spend more money with a when a remote would look fancy . user interface: oh , that 's a bit of a problem . industrial designer: mm . marketing: tha i l i it 'll look fancy with lcd screen . yeah . industrial designer: it 's looks fancy one yeah , of lcd screen . user interface: yeah , but they do n't they do n't like it . project manager: yeah . user interface: they think it 's ugly . when it has an lcd screen . marketing: yeah , just a the plain remotes , not not specific lcd remotes . user interface: oh , alright , i thought that you said that . project manager: yeah , and maybe you can make something fancy out of an lcd remote , marketing: so project manager: because it 's new , as far as i know . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: industrial designer: mm yeah . marketing: yeah , of course . industrial designer: and then not yeah . marketing: and then you have the other thing , that seventy five percent zap a lot , but that 's not a f question with the lcd screen . industrial designer: um . yeah . marketing: only thing you have to do is wipe the screen off once each time , to get all the fingerprints off it . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm . okay ? project manager: okay , what else does our remote need ? user interface: a mute button . marketing: um project manager: mute button . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i think . and marketing: the most important things on a f on an on an uh remote control are channel selection , volume con selection , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and power s power usage . user interface: yeah . marketing: and a teletext , but that is not of the question . user interface: but but should n't you put a button of for teletext on the for the people who want to use it ? marketing: other things are sorry ? user interface: remembering we have got a big remote that you have to fill . marketing: yeah , it could be . yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . yeah , and we could make an a a separate menu on the lcd uh screen for teletext . marketing: yeah , teletext . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and there 's also a marketing: and other other less important things are screen settings , audio settings , and channel settings , user interface: yeah , they are less important , but i think they should be there , marketing: less important . user interface: or not ? marketing: yeah , should be there , industrial designer: a sh marketing: but not press industrial designer: but in a sub sub-menu or something like that . marketing: yeah , sub-menu , yeah . industrial designer: uh i think it 's also important to uh make it possible to um how do you call it in english , uh , to not use batteries , and use ac uh bat uh batteries to uh to be project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: like with a with a mouse , you have not , yeah . industrial designer: yeah yeah sure . indeed . so uh you can mount uh the the the uh marketing: yeah , in a breath it 's industrial designer: uh the remote control to um project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: charted . user interface: we should think of the twelve fifty we have industrial designer: to refill the user interface: but marketing: yeah , user interface: i do n't know how much that 's going to uh marketing: but we do n't we do n't have any costs now , industrial designer: yeah . okay , marketing: so yeah . industrial designer: because i uh when you get an lcd screen , you run it on batteries , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: the batteries will be uh empty very soon , very fast . marketing: yeah e e power supply is one of the most important things . user interface: you should perhaps you should be able to to switch the control off . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: if you have an lcd screen that 's burns all the time i dunno . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . yeah . user interface: you should n't on and off because that 's ver extra , that you have t first you have to turn the remote on , and then you can uh project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: i do n't know . industrial designer: uh marketing: yeah , i think it 's it 's not that easy because i do n't think people will like it who who uh that you have to turn it on first and then use it , user interface: nee that 's that 's uh yeah . marketing: so i think it 's better when th the tv shuts down , the remote shuts down . user interface: but then you ca n't industrial designer: and go to standby mode when you do n't use it , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so that marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah yeah au automac matically , that it yeah . industrial designer: yeah , automatically . after two minutes or three minutes , something like that . marketing: yeah . after two minutes , yeah two three minutes , yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . and maybe a low battery indicator ? on the screen . industrial designer: yeah . sure . project manager: marketing: yeah . user interface: marketing: and then b that uh industrial designer: marketing: before an hour when its get again gets empty . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: then you have plenty of time to recharge it , industrial designer: mm . marketing: of put it in a recharger . charger . project manager: so we are going for the for the recharger . user interface: project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , if it 's . uh . user interface: if it 's sensible . marketing: yeah , because when you 're watching tv , you 're zapping and you have to put it in a recharger , user interface: yeah . yeah , b when the batteries are low industrial designer: no , marketing: and i do n't think it industrial designer: when you when you 're done with s uh w uh watching your television , you have to put it marketing: yeah , okay , but then we have to be sure that the the the the batteries go hours , six hours , five , six hours , then . user interface: but you 'll also forget to put it in , industrial designer: yeah sure , of course . user interface: because you throw it on the couch industrial designer: yeah , marketing: yeah , industrial designer: but marketing: then you have a problem . user interface: and you do n't remember . industrial designer: but you also forget to buy batteries , user interface: yeah . that 's right . industrial designer: and then you can you ca n't use it , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so i marketing: or we have to be sure that the batteries last couple of days when they 're recharged . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: well i think the batteries should should w should work a lot longer than a couple of days , marketing: so . user interface: or not ? marketing: yeah because you have b user interface: 'cause marketing: but you have lcd screen . user interface: yeah , that 's right , but marketing: high power usage . industrial designer: high power user cell , i uh it should be uh a standard move to to put your remote control in the charger when you 're done watching television , marketing: yes . industrial designer: that 's also a a a great advantage because you ca n't lose it anymore . because you are obliged to uh put it in the charger and not to uh leave it in a couch uh between some cushions . marketing: true . yeah . yeah . true . user interface: yeah . right . industrial designer: okay . marketing: yeah , you made a point there . user interface: but then you also have to s have somewhere where you can put a remo recharger near your couch project manager: yeah , also . user interface: because otherwise you have to walk a long way when you twoft want to turn on the tv . marketing: yeah , otherwise all your yeah . just a small device . user interface: yeah . i think everything has it for and i guess . industrial designer: yeah it has n't it does n't have to be big . marketing: plug it in , that 's it . yeah , like a like telephone charger or something . industrial designer: yeah just just a cable , or a even a a a a a charger where you can mount it on . something like that , marketing: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: just u user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . user interface: alright . project manager: okay , well i 've marketing: it has to be easy to use also , or things . uh market share , speaker re speech recognition . project manager: yeah , you have some more user interface: project manager: points . industrial designer: functional designs uh for the elderly uh you could make it possible to enlarge the screen , marketing: i think . industrial designer: so make it possible to not uh display uh a button at ten points marketing: also . industrial designer: uh , or marketing: well i think that this should be standard . large button large buttons . industrial designer: yeah but it is uh one of the functions you have to uh specify . marketing: yeah ? okay . industrial designer: because we can look at uh uh perhaps uh forty buttons at a screen , but the elderly only look at two buttons . project manager: marketing: industrial designer: okay . marketing: . project manager: and you said something about speech recognition ? marketing: yeah , industrial designer: speech recognition ? marketing: it says also industrial designer: hello . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , industrial designer: twelve euro user interface: twelve fifty , twelve fifty . industrial designer: twelve euro fifty . marketing: twelve . that 's an also ninety one percent sixteen to twenty five , twenty six to thirty five years , seventy six percent , and thirty six to forty five , thirty five percent . user interface: so it 's pretty big . industrial designer: well , spread it by a big market . marketing: but then i i i project manager: even bigger than for lcd . user interface: yeah . w i know let 's do a speech . industrial designer: well marketing: yeah . industrial designer: let 's leave out all the remote controls and just put a microphone on top of the television to user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah . ninety . twenty five . user interface: you can clap or something . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: channel . industrial designer: turn volume up . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: hey , that that 's an idea . marketing: user interface: now you should n't say the wrong thing , i dunno . industrial designer: okay , well marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that should it has to be remote control , not marketing: yeah , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: twelve . user interface: but they want to talk into the remo remote control , or something , industrial designer: sure why not why not marketing: yeah . user interface: or ? marketing: is this only would you would you pay more for speech recognition in a remote control . it 's the only thing it says . industrial designer: yeah , mm . user interface: oh , but do we want to implement that , or ? marketing: i think an lcd screen should be suf sufficient . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: but when you look at the percentages marketing: yeah , it says a lot , but project manager: speech recognition scores even higher , huh ? industrial designer: perhaps the options should be uh why not ? user interface: project manager: yeah , well , industrial designer: why not ? project manager: maybe because of the cost , but uh nobody knows uh how much uh it will cost uh . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: let 's hope uh to have some uh d user interface: i know marketing: no i think i think it 's better to have l_ lcd screen , because in the area of tw thirty six to forty five , we have about thirty percent of the market share in in our hands , and fifty five of those people want lcd screen and thirty five want speech recognition . so i think it 's better to keep it with lcd screen . project manager: but would it be useful to imple implement both ? user interface: mm . project manager: on one remote ? marketing: yeah , if the costs al allow it . project manager: or user interface: well project manager: yeah , i dunno . user interface: i do n't know if that can be done with the cost of twelve fifty . marketing: nee . user interface: with that uh marketing: if it should be done , if it could be done , i wo n't matter . yeah . user interface: yeah , industrial designer: we should do it . yeah . sure . user interface: but how would you like to implement that , that you say volume up , and then it goes up , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: or ? marketing: yeah . user interface: uh . industrial designer: certain systems already exist , i think . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: then you also have to have different languages if we go international . then uh it 's y it 's yours to do a french and dutch and english marketing: true . industrial designer: true , yeah . marketing: yeah . true . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but that should also be with f should be also with lcd screen . industrial designer: this should be uh accommodated with some software , uh , uh . yeah . marketing: because then i think in chinese is different written , volume is different written than um swahili or something . user interface: yeah , that 's right . yeah . industrial designer: right . swahili . swahili . user interface: yeah you can use icons for the industrial designer: yeah . user interface: a speaker and uh marketing: ja , well possible . industrial designer: indeed . user interface: but if that 's better than language for the for the remote . marketing: yeah , yeah yeah yeah industrial designer: yeah . so we want to uh yeah it 's international uh okay . user interface: then it 's yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: 'kay , what else ? project manager: so , no speech recognition ? or user interface: well , if it could be done , we marketing: yeah , industrial designer: y it should be done . if it could be done , should be done . marketing: we have to keep yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , and then we have different languages . user interface: yeah , that should be uh anything matters . industrial designer: that 's not so difficult at all , project manager: okay , just make a separate remote for each uh industrial designer: because i already use on several voice operated systems , and they are all possible to uh not all , but user interface: well , you sh you should to adjust the thing . marketing: i think it 's difficult . every language of dialects user interface: yeah . marketing: i think it 's very differen difficult . user interface: and you have to speak the so that it can understand . marketing: yeah . i think it ca n't be implemented , but maybe user interface: you could use that n as an option , if you have money left , or something . marketing: yeah , 's an option , yes . industrial designer: yeah , sure , indeed . marketing: fifty euro cents . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: user interface: let 's do speech . industrial designer: for speech recognition . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , so we only do this when we have enough money left . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . well i 've written down an an on or off button , volume selection , channel selection , uh the digits from one to zero , huh . um or from zero to nine . uh a digits button to switch uh between one and two digits , mute button , a separate menu for teletext , a battery indicator . um we 're going to use a docking station and uh probably lcd and if there 's enough money , speech recognition . and uh the possibility to uh enlarge buttons or to have large buttons user interface: mm . yeah . marketing: mm , yes . project manager: in general . user interface: i with uh teletext if it was n't ver very important , it was but marketing: no , but user interface: you also now have colours . i do n't know if we should implement that . yeah , marketing: curved ? user interface: when you press the red button , you go to page one hundred two , and when you press the industrial designer: uh yeah . user interface: i do n't know if we should implement that , marketing: um . user interface: because it says that teletext not really important , industrial designer: s shortcuts . uh . user interface: but yeah , the shortcut , and you ca n't go to sport . marketing: i think we should we could that we could also implement a audio settings , screen settings and channel settings , but as sub-menus . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm . marketing: d mainly if you turn the uh remote control on , you have to u you have to see from one till zero , channel and volume . and if you want to use teletext screen or audio , then you can press it . industrial designer: sh yeah , just just sub-menu . yeah . marketing: it should be available but not user interface: 'cause it should be there . industrial designer: not directly uh available . marketing: not yeah . yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: okay , so not too much teletext support , but in a separate menu , and industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah . user interface: so actually it is there but it 's just not r ready there . marketing: yeah , but s industrial designer: directly available . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so does it confuse uh the user ? user interface: you 'll have to search for it . marketing: they 'd have to be easy to use . industrial designer: uh . i 'll search um . user interface: industrial designer: if you want to use teletext , you can push the teletext button and then the options uh become available . user interface: yeah . yeah , that 's a marketing: the sign of it . project manager: okay , but no more buttons or functions , or ? user interface: i guess not . industrial designer: no . marketing: uh , no . what else can you do with a television ? user interface: we 've got anon project manager: are n't we forgetting something very important ? user interface: have got got two examples here , but i do n't think there 's anything we 're missing . marketing: uh play , pause , does n't n need to be there . user interface: well , we do n't have the video orders marketing: yes , so this is your presentation . we could check the other remote controls with technical functions . user interface: yeah , you could look here all the the marketing: which ones were yours ? user interface: uh th th th th i do n't know , technical functions . marketing: techni user interface: they 're a bit small , you can we should stretch them , because project manager: ping . marketing: ja ja ja ja ja . technical functions . yeah okay . user interface: i guess we 've got them all . marketing: uh i think i go to have volume , mute but i yeah . very slow . yeah , the zoom buttons . user interface: and for a tv ? can you zoom in a tv ? marketing: yeah , b wide screen , high screen , different things you have , user interface: or that you can put 'em on uh on on wide and marketing: yeah different uh user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: but that should also be a sub then , a sub uh menu thing . industrial designer: menu . marketing: yeah it should be available , but then in separate screen settings or something . user interface: yeah , so we should also implement se screen settings . industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah , screen settings , audio settings , teletext settings you have . user interface: oh right . yeah . marketing: channel settings . user interface: yeah , so you can program the marketing: so those four , and of course the main . user interface: yeah , so the first you see the main , and the other ones you can uh go to uh marketing: yeah . yeah . like tap screens or something user interface: yeah . marketing: or , i dunno . user interface: i hope we can do this . marketing: something industrial designer: there are a lot of options depending uh on what kind of television you got . marketing: yeah , if uh industrial designer: 'cause if you do n't got a wide screen television you do n't need the uh the screen settings marketing: no , you do n't yu a no you then you do n't no ni do n't industrial designer: uh for uh marketing: then you do n't use it . industrial designer: yeah and if the television does not support such uh operations marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we do n't have to use that top . yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so you leave it alone . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . or it could be possible to have a a standard version of the remote , an expanded version . user interface: yeah . and do we want them in different colours , or marketing: yeah . user interface: and and the buttons , should they have colours ? marketing: colours . yeah . industrial designer: colours i think the main colour of the remote control is uh the colour of the lcd screen . user interface: oh but we do n't have any buttons . yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i because we do n't want a lot a devi yeah a device self s g marketing: yeah , then defines itself . because uh how many percent ? eighty percent ? user interface: they think it 's ugly , right ? marketing: would spend more money if it looks fancy . industrial designer: okay , so use uh very uh lot of peo user interface: perhaps you can uh make adjustable fronts , like with the telephones . industrial designer: adjust with phones , yes user interface: you can uh but i do n't think that uh industrial designer: okay . twelve euro fifty . well , make it available in different colours , you mean ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: sure . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: red , white , blue , black . user interface: project manager: and a see-through uh marketing: rasta colours . industrial designer: grey . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah sea view , yes , simpson 's versions and marketing: yeah , see through version . yeah . if you press a button , it turns green . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , well industrial designer: leave . project manager: that 's the user interface: a disco version . project manager: signal for las final five minutes . user interface: five minutes ? project manager: um so i have uh the things i just read . um then we have uh separate menus for teletext , screen settings , audio settings , and what else ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: channel settings ? user interface: oh yeah , right . project manager: channel settings . user interface: so you can program the tv . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: mm . user interface: perhaps you should you 'd throw them on on in one pile . so , options , and then you sub them . marketing: yeah . could be possible . user interface: otherwise you have all those teletext , perhaps teletext not , industrial designer: mm . user interface: but marketing: or like uh you have a menu button , you press project manager: no , we said teletext also a separate menu . user interface: yeah , but i marketing: yeah , or otherwise you have a menu button , press menu then you have uh main uh menu search uh all the all the settings . user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay , but we can work that out later , i guess . user interface: but marketing: yeah , no problem . yep . project manager: so we 're having a a general menu with the most used functions , uh teletext , screen settings , audio settings , channel settings , and maybe there are options for the remote itself ? like uh large icons or small icons user interface: i do n't know . project manager: and i do n't know what else , marketing: um , project manager: but industrial designer: no . marketing: i think b because we do n't have a lot of buttons on the one screen , user interface: or do we have any buttons ? on the remote . marketing: i think the buttons yeah , but but or like you have user interface: which one ? marketing: you only have channel button or volume button . those buttons you can you can project manager: yeah , but on the lcd , user interface: but that 's also in the lcd , project manager: huh ? user interface: right ? marketing: yeah . project manager: right , yeah , okay . user interface: so we do n't have any normal buttons marketing: yeah , th user interface: that uh marketing: no , no normal buttons , yeah . user interface: no , alright . marketing: maybe only the on and o on and off button . user interface: yet on and off is p is perhaps you kno project manager: but we do n't need a special industrial designer: uh not button marketing: but i do n't think project manager: we do n't need a special options menu for the remote itself . user interface: no , no . marketing: mm , no . project manager: okay . user interface: oh well , you should be able to set which tv you have . if you have if you have uh industrial designer: yeah sure , of course you need uh a settings button , uh or a settings option for the remote control . user interface: yeah . but is n't idea to use uh uh what you said , uh normal on and off button for the tv , that you do n't have to use a marketing: no no no , because we we discussed that you could charge it , otherwise is it it jumps to stand-by mode automatically . user interface: yeah but but not for the remote but for the tv , that you use marketing: yeah , but a tv of course , th that 's the i think that 's a best thing is that to implement that one in the menu with the volume and channel . user interface: but a not as normal button , in the lcd , marketing: no . project manager: well maybe there should be a separate button apart from the lcd , user interface: yeah . project manager: because you ca n't turn it on when the lcd is off . so how do you turn the thing on ? there has to be a on button on the remote , user interface: no you just tap i think . project manager: huh ? industrial designer: just tap it . marketing: yeah , you tap . project manager: tap the thing . okay . marketing: touch screen , yeah then it 's turn turn off , turn on . project manager: and then the television is on also , or just the remote ? marketing: no , just the remote . user interface: but marketing: a television do n't have to be on , that one you can press on , industrial designer: yeah , it should be in standby mode , but marketing: yeah stand-by , then press on remote , press on and then tv should be available . or not . user interface: yeah a yeah . i do n't know whether it 's handy to have a n a normal on button , a r just uh rubber uh for for tv , marketing: separate . user interface: so you can turn it on and then you can choose the channel . otherwise you i do n't know whether or not that 's industrial designer: a a a normal button on the remote control , user interface: yeah , yeah . to turn it on . industrial designer: or norm ? user interface: of or you should put it in the lcd screen . industrial designer: yeah , because uh when you touch the lcd screen when it is in standby mode , it should pop on . user interface: yeah , i have , project manager: okay , well user interface: yeah . industrial designer: wh uh why would it be a a need to have a normal button ? user interface: well i i guess if you use the lcd screen , you first have to search where is the on button , then you uh you you then turn it , and then the tv goes on . but if you have a normal on button on the on the remote , then you do the on , and then you search the channel which you want . marketing: yeah , but i think the re the remote control , if you press tap the screen , it always should jump to the screen which has the volume button , channel button , and of course of also the on and off button . industrial designer: mm . user interface: oh right . industrial designer: i think it looks a lot more fancy if you use uh if you do n't have any buttons on the s on on remote control . user interface: yeah , i think so too . otherwise y wet e k yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so actually we 're going to create a a button-less uh remote . no buttons at all . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , well that 's might be a unique selling point , huh for a remote . user interface: if we can afford it . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , well i guess we have to industrial designer: oh , okay marketing: yeah , if we can afford it . yeah . project manager: postpone further discussion to uh our next meeting , because we 're running out of time . um for now , we 're having a lunch break , industrial designer: oh . project manager: and then there will be uh half an hour for the uh next share of individual work . i will uh write uh minutes , if i can create them out of this . and uh put them in the the project documents uh folder . user interface: industrial designer: mm . project manager: and here are the individual actions for the for the other roles . and of course specific instructions will be sent to you again by your uh personal coach . user interface: alright . project manager: luckily as we are . okay , well user interface: project manager: thank you very much , for now , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh have a nice lunch , huh ? user interface: lunch . industrial designer: okay . user interface: industrial designer: food . user interface: should we put this back in our rooms , or uh ? industrial designer: yeah , think so . user interface: yeah .

according to data , marketing thought that younger people were more interested in features like lcd screen and speech recognition . however , older people did n't care about features so much and spent more money on remote control than younger people . findings also showed that fifty percent of users lost remote control so bigger is better than smaller about remote control . marketing expressed that volume button and channel button were the most important buttons so they should be found easily .

what function did the group think should be on the remote control ? </s> project manager: good morning , again . industrial designer: one question . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: send . user interface: choose a number ? industrial designer: submit . marketing: yep yep yep yep . project manager: all set ? industrial designer: mm . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: good . okay . let 's see what we can find here . okay . a very warm welcome again to everyone . user interface: project manager: um here we are already at our uh functional design meeting . um and this is what we are going to do . the opening , which we are doing now , um and the special note , i 'm project manager but on the meetings i 'm also the secretary , which means i will make uh minutes as i did of the previous meeting . industrial designer: project manager: and uh i also put these as fast as possible in the uh project folder , so you can see them and review what we have discussed . um if i 'm right , there are three presentations , i guess each one of you has prepared one ? good . user interface: yes . project manager: and um we will also take a look at new project requirements , um if you have n't heard about them yet . and then of course we have to take a decision on the remote control functions and we have some more time , forty minutes . but i think we will need it . um well i do n't know who wants to go first with his presentation . industrial designer: i 'll go first . okay . i 'll go first yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: you can go first , okay . user interface: well . marketing: well , shall i go first with the users ? user interface: well marketing: i think well okay no problem . project manager: is there an order ? i have n't user interface: everybody already has his presentation , marketing: ja precies , ja precies , ja precies user interface: so you can adjust it . industrial designer: so . huh ? okay , um project manager: and one question , uh your name denni , is it with a marketing: e_i_e_ . project manager: i_e_ e_i_e_ , okay . thank you . user interface: industrial designer: okay , um i wanted to explain the working design of the remote control . it 's possibly very handy if you want to uh design one of those . um well so it basically works uh as i uh uh r wrote down uh in this uh little uh summary . uh when you press a button , uh that 's when you do pr for example when you uh want to turn up the volume , um a little connection is made uh the the rubber uh button just presses on a project manager: sorry . marketing: user interface: industrial designer: on a little print plate uh which uh makes uh uh a connection that uh gives the chips , uh which is uh mounted beneath those uh that plastic of a rubber button . uh senses that a connection has been made , and know and knows what button you pressed , becau uh for example the the volume up or volume down button . um uh the the chip uh makes a morse code uh like uh signal which uh then is si uh signalled to uh several transistors which makes uh which sends the signal to a little let . you know what a let is ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . and that makes uh the the infra-red lights signal which is sent to the television set . uh which has a sensor in it to uh sense uh the signal of the infra-red . that 's basically uh how it works . um the findings uh uh that i found uh searching up some uh detailed information about the remote controls , are that uh they are very easy to produce , uh it is pis uh it 's possible to uh make them in mass production because it is as eas it is as easy as uh printing a page , uh just uh fibreglass plate um is b uh is uh covered with uh some uh coatings and uh uh and chips . user interface: industrial designer: uh and the technology 's already available , we do n't have to find out how remote controls uh have to work or uh how that how uh to make some chips that are possible to uh to to transmit those uh signals . uh i made a little uh uh animation of about how a tran our uh remote controller works . user interface: marketing: user interface: oh right . marketing: animation . user interface: industrial designer: we tel user interface: there is something turning . industrial designer: there . project manager: yeah , it 's a little bug it 's in the in the smart board . industrial designer: okay . uh well user interface: industrial designer: the sub-component , i suppose that you understand what a sub-component is , is f in this example it 's the button . uh when it is pressed down , um , the switch is ter is uh is switched on , so with uh the wire is sent to the to the chip in uh co-operation with the battery of course , because to make uh a a signal possible you have to have some sort of uh li uh a d ad uh electronic uh user interface: marketing: infrared light . industrial designer: yes , uh , okay . um w after it 's being composed by the chip uh the signal uh is transported uh to the infra-red bulb , and from there it signals a morse code-like signal to the to the b to the bulb in uh in the television set . okay . s uh i wrote down some personal preferences about uh the remote control . of course it is very handy if the remote control is hand held , so you do n't have to uh uh wind it up or something , or just is it 's it 's very light to uh to make uh to use it . uh i personally uh pref prefer that uh it would be p uh come available in the various colours , and uh easy to use buttons . but i suppose that the one of the other team members uh uh thought of that uh too . user interface: yeah , i 've got it there too . industrial designer: and it is possible for several designs and um easy to use b uh sorry , easy to use buttons . perhaps soft touch , uh touch screen uh buttons because uh the rubber buttons are always uh uh they uh slightly uh they can be slightly damaged , marketing: industrial designer: uh so the numbers on the buttons are not possible uh to read anymore . and uh well as i said uh before th uh we can uh make several designs . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay , well , that 's my contribution to this meeting , and uh marketing: to this meeting . project manager: okay , thank you . user interface: industrial designer: two of these this meeting . so . user interface: shall i go uh next ? project manager: yep . user interface: 'kay . project manager: please . user interface: so . marketing: smoking . user interface: well uh , my name 's , and i looked at uh technical functions design of the remote . uh i did this by uh looking at examples of other remote controls , of how they uh they look , and information from the web that i found . um well what i found was that uh th the actual use of the remote control is to send messages to television set , how you uh d what you described uh just early . and this can be all sorts of medsa messages , turn it on , turn it off , uh change the channel , adjust volume , that kind of thing . uh play video , teletext , but also t uh play c_d_ if you use it your c_d_ player the remote control will that one . there are some uh examples of remote controls . you can see they are very different . the one has got all the functions that you could possibly need and an lot of uh buttons etcetera . and the other is uh more user friendly , little with big buttons . and uh not n all the the the the stuff you can do with it , but uh the the essential stuff is there . um i guess you could better y you should look at a a user centred uh approach , because the customers have to use them and and if they do n't think it 's usable they wo n't uh buy it . a lot of buttons they may think from i do n't need s as much as that . uh , well perf personal preferences is is uh a simple remote , with uh the basic functions that you can need that you could use . but uh keep in mind the new functions of tv what we discussed earlier , split screen and uh is that a function that you should have ? because all the tvs will have them . or because of only a few and is n't really necessary . and then uh make it i would make so that you can could uh use it on more than one appliance . if you have one that uh uh does with the vi the the video , it could also work with uh with the stereo , because play is play and stop stop and that sort of thing . the shu c you could reuse the buttons so that you do n't have to have a lot of buttons for uh anything . and it should be a user friendly , clear buttons , and not too much . and that is my presentation . project manager: okay , thank you . industrial designer: okay . marketing: 'kay . check . industrial designer: user interface: you must still have it open . marketing: kijke 'kay , so . we 're going to j discuss the functional requirements of the remote , that m that means that functions user n want to have on the remote control , or just yeah , and the users , actually . industrial designer: marketing: the methods i i prefer is we 're going to look which section of the users we are going to focus a l on more . are the younger people going to buy the remote control or the elderly people ? and then tho that section we 're going to focus and adjust the remote more to that section than the whole user section . okay . some data . younger people , from sixteen to thir forty five um years are more interested in fj features like lcd screens , speech recognition e etcetera . and we possess about two third of the market from in that range of age . the elderly people , from forty five years to sixty five years are not that much interested in features , and we possess less than two third , that 's two fifth , of the market share in that area . goed so . project manager: industrial designer: hmm . marketing: 'kay . findings . fifty percent of the users lose their remote often . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: so we do n't have to make it very small , like uh like a mobile phone or something , but some somewhat bi bigger than small , so you do n't lose it that much anymore . seventy five percent of the users also find it ugly , industrial designer: mm . marketing: and fif seventy five of the users zap a lot , so the buttons sh should be that small , or should n't be that complex because we have to search for the buttons , which one are you going to use . next . important issues about the remote . i think it would be better with a personal reference , but okay . remote control has to have to have a low power usage , because s w seventy five percent of the users only zap one time an hour , so the power usage is also one one time an hour , or so , with a high power usage we would use a lot of but batteries . the volume button and the channel buttons are the two most important buttons on the remote control , so those they those have to h be find very easily . and have to be somewhat like bigger etcetera . it has also be have to find easily when the label is gone . my colleague also announced it that labels should be scratched off industrial designer: mm . user interface: hmm . marketing: or would be s uh senden user interface: marketing: okay . so uh if that 's k uh if that 's the problem , you also have to find it easily on the remote . buttons . like what all colleagues said , have to have to be minimalized . or should be covered , or in lcd screen . lcd screen is easy because we have the lcd screen , we have the various options . put one option and then you have the all the buttons of that options , so the other options would be gone . and you do n't see the buttons . so lcd screens should be easy , but an lcd screen , the problem with the l_ sc lcd screen is that elderly people fr from forty five to for sixty five years do n't use the lcd screen a lot . so we have to that keep that in mind that if you 're going to implement lcd screen , you do n't have to make it that hard to learn or to use . industrial designer: uh lcd screen as in uh touch screen ? marketing: yeah , touch screen , yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: the last but not least , younger people are more critical about the features . because they use the remote control often more often , and are more technical than the ol older people . and the older people spend more money , and easily on a remote control . user interface: mm . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: so we have to keep in mind to to focus not a lot not that much on the younger pep younger people , but also somewhat on the elderly people . and on my personal preferences , i do n't have any mo more time to come with that , user interface: marketing: but like i said , lcd screen is easily to use industrial designer: marketing: because you have you can implement a lot of buttons in one remote with not that much buttons . and it should be easy to use . especially the volume buttons , the channel buttes buttons and the number buttons to zap through the channels . and that is it . project manager: okay , industrial designer: okay . project manager: thank you . user interface: oh right . project manager: um , well thank you all , huh . i dunno uh did everyone receive an email with uh the new project requirements ? user interface: no . res i did not . project manager: no ? well , user interface: perhaps the rest ? industrial designer: no . project manager: then i think it 's a good thing that i made a separate slide of them marketing: ja , project manager: so you can all read them . oh , well not in this presentation . hmm user interface: project manager: should be in there . well , i can tell you them uh from my laptop . um teletext does has become outdated since the popularity of the internet . user interface: oh . mm . project manager: so that 's uh the first thing we i think we should pay less attention to uh teletext . uh the remote control should only be used for the television , otherwise the project becomes more complex , which endangers the time to market , and of course would make it more costly , i think . um our current customers are within the age group of forty plus , and new product should reach a new market with customers that are younger than forty , and you talked about that before . and uh a last point , but also very important , our corporate image should stay recognisable in our products , which means that our uh corporate colour and slogan must be implemented in the new design . so we have to keep that in mind . um well uh according to our agenda it 's then time to take a decision on the remote control functions . so , who has any idea about what should be on it , and what should n't ? user interface: well you said it should only uh work with one appliance ? marketing: be television . user interface: or with one uh d che only the tv ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . only be used for television . user interface: and the video also , or not uh ? project manager: well it says only for television here , huh . marketing: only the television . user interface: oh . alright . okay . project manager: makes it a lot easier , huh ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm . marketing: so yeah , then you can yeah . requirements , no ? functions . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then it should have uh on , off , industrial designer: yeah for user interface: and uh industrial designer: standby options , marketing: yeah , the basics then by a volume , channel , one till two zero numbers on it , industrial designer: yeah ? uh yeah . user interface: yeah . and per perhaps uh marketing: oh teletext does n't have to be ? user interface: no . marketing: um other functions . user interface: well uh uh yes yes s sh a button where you can uh change from one number to two numbers . marketing: yeah i had industrial designer: two s two two digits , marketing: yeah , yeah . user interface: can you industrial designer: oh okay . user interface: do n't know if that 's got a name , industrial designer: yeah i understand what you mean . yeah . user interface: but marketing: i think it 's i think it 's easy to implement a button with a s s what which especially do that , because some tvs , if you press the t one and then the two , it be between five secs it make twelve , industrial designer: it makes it twelve , yeah . user interface: yeah . s industrial designer: indeed . okay . marketing: and that 's that 's not relaxed industrial designer: well , not really marketing: to user . industrial designer: and and there are some models that do n't uh accommodate that function . so marketing: yeah . industrial designer: d uh wh the philip 's television makes it possible in that indeed to uh press one and then two to make uh the uh tj to reach channel twelve . marketing: so that it easy and fast . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but uh all the television makes uh use of those button where you first press that button and then press two digits to uh to get marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah , so you should have that one on . industrial designer: uh yeah , think so . marketing: our main targets ' age are ? were ? forty five plus , or ? user interface: mute misschien also . project manager: uh well industrial designer: mm . project manager: new product should reach a market with customers that are younger than forty , and now we have current customers uh of forty plus . marketing: forties , okay because because younger people as uh younger people have now , sixteen till to twenty five age , are f eighty one percent interested in lcd screen . from twenty six to thirty five have sixty six percent , and thirty six to forty five , fifty five percent , so i think to um because on most recog remote controls um the print plate will be broken how much , two years . you have to press h very hard to go to the next channel . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: with the lcd screen it 's easier because you only have to wipe the screen to uh for fingerprint , industrial designer: yeah , we we could yeah . but i think that uh that collides with our mission to make it very cheap . marketing: and then you can use it again . industrial designer: because lcd screens are very expensive . marketing: yeah , okay . user interface: an industrial designer: a touch screen uh probably uh even more . marketing: yeah but a you do n't know industrial designer: so , marketing: true . industrial designer: true , true . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: but uh well um is it possible to make an lcd screen uh , how was the information ? marketing: yeah , it only says that this perce percentage like lcd screen . because , yeah and it says that younger age between sixteen and forty five highly interesting features more critical . industrial designer: so perhaps we should we should focus on that lcd screen . marketing: and if the only f yeah , because our target is sixteen to forty five . user interface: but , do you industrial designer: yeah but uh will we not uh exceed our uh our uh production uh marketing: yeah you do n't know how much it costs . yeah , you do n't know how much it costs , the lcd screen . industrial designer: is it possible to find out , anyway ? marketing: no , i do n't have any costs here , industrial designer: you know ? marketing: i only have percentages . user interface: but if you would do an lcd screen do we have don do n't you have any buttons ? or because if it only directs at the tv , then you only have uh i do n't know what you want to do with the lcd screen . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: no , an lcd screen 's just like uh like a drawn here . um just uh displays several buttons , user interface: yeah ? industrial designer: for example um if you wanted the minimal uh use b uh buttons , such as channel and volume , you just h uh displays four buttons on the screen user interface: oh right , so you can industrial designer: and it 's possible to p uh press them down , just like a touch screen . user interface: oh , yeah alright . so you can adjust which buttons you want on that s screen . industrial designer: yeah , we can make it possible to do that , yeah . marketing: yeah , if you want to adjust , like for example , adjust the audio settings , you press audio on the touchscreen industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: and you get the buttons for audio settings , user interface: yeah alright , oh right . marketing: so the other buttons are gone . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: so we 're going for an lcd screen ? user interface: yeah . would be yeah . marketing: i think it 's the most easier thing , industrial designer: that 's my uh project manager: and hoping that when we produce a lot it wo n't be too expensive . marketing: yeah . user interface: well we had twelve fifty , i guess , for uh production ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: no . yeah . industrial designer: twelve fifty . marketing: industrial designer: um . user interface: any guesses ? industrial designer: marketing: industrial designer: well i suppose wi if the mar if our um if the i if the young people are interested in lcd screens , we should make 'em . marketing: highly . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and if that is our d uh market share to uh and our goal to uh deliver those uh remote controls user interface: but but he also said that we should not only focus on the younger people , but also on the older , and will they use it if it only has an lcd screen ? marketing: yeah , but um , s forty six to forty five , thirty three percent , and sixty fifty six to sixty five twelve percent . user interface: oh , so still a little bit people marketing: but our our our what 's it , project requirements are the new products should be reached for new markets , to customers that are younger than forty . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah that 's right . but you do n't want to alienate the other uh marketing: no , that not now , but , so user interface: but if they also buy it then it 's alright . i guess . marketing: yeah , but market share fro for for forty years and younger is higher than that of sixty five and younger . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . alright . project manager: okay , so lcd it is ? user interface: an yes . project manager: okay . industrial designer: mm . it 's treasure . project manager: and what else ? industrial designer: i hope we uh h and let 's hope to reach those uh those sales . marketing: yeah , i i if it yeah , if it costs gets too much , too expensive , then yeah , we should be sticking to rubber buttons . project manager: user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , can you um uh s i think that that they will send you some information about uh the cost of lcd uh screens . user interface: yeah . marketing: n nothing , no costs at all . user interface: but perhaps later , industrial designer: uh so if you uh user interface: so uh industrial designer: yeah , so if you uh you receive an email about that , uh can you post it in the or should n't we post that in uh our projects mail uh folder . marketing: yeah , in user interface: yeah . marketing: i think that should yeah i think we all get the costs of everything . user interface: i do n't industrial designer: because you are the the marketing uh expert . marketing: yeah , okay , i 'll i 'll post it . industrial designer: i uh user interface: well perhaps we should have a backup plan that we would use buttons if it 's uh too expensive . industrial designer: yeah sure , sure . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , okay . but for now it 's lcd . okay . marketing: okay , lcd , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: then you have the seventy five percent of users find it r ugly . industrial designer: user interface: the lcd ? oh that 's a bit of a problem . marketing: yeah , and eighty percent of the users would spend more money with a when a remote would look fancy . user interface: oh , that 's a bit of a problem . industrial designer: mm . marketing: tha i l i it 'll look fancy with lcd screen . yeah . industrial designer: it 's looks fancy one yeah , of lcd screen . user interface: yeah , but they do n't they do n't like it . project manager: yeah . user interface: they think it 's ugly . when it has an lcd screen . marketing: yeah , just a the plain remotes , not not specific lcd remotes . user interface: oh , alright , i thought that you said that . project manager: yeah , and maybe you can make something fancy out of an lcd remote , marketing: so project manager: because it 's new , as far as i know . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: industrial designer: mm yeah . marketing: yeah , of course . industrial designer: and then not yeah . marketing: and then you have the other thing , that seventy five percent zap a lot , but that 's not a f question with the lcd screen . industrial designer: um . yeah . marketing: only thing you have to do is wipe the screen off once each time , to get all the fingerprints off it . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm . okay ? project manager: okay , what else does our remote need ? user interface: a mute button . marketing: um project manager: mute button . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i think . and marketing: the most important things on a f on an on an uh remote control are channel selection , volume con selection , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and power s power usage . user interface: yeah . marketing: and a teletext , but that is not of the question . user interface: but but should n't you put a button of for teletext on the for the people who want to use it ? marketing: other things are sorry ? user interface: remembering we have got a big remote that you have to fill . marketing: yeah , it could be . yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . yeah , and we could make an a a separate menu on the lcd uh screen for teletext . marketing: yeah , teletext . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and there 's also a marketing: and other other less important things are screen settings , audio settings , and channel settings , user interface: yeah , they are less important , but i think they should be there , marketing: less important . user interface: or not ? marketing: yeah , should be there , industrial designer: a sh marketing: but not press industrial designer: but in a sub sub-menu or something like that . marketing: yeah , sub-menu , yeah . industrial designer: uh i think it 's also important to uh make it possible to um how do you call it in english , uh , to not use batteries , and use ac uh bat uh batteries to uh to be project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: like with a with a mouse , you have not , yeah . industrial designer: yeah yeah sure . indeed . so uh you can mount uh the the the uh marketing: yeah , in a breath it 's industrial designer: uh the remote control to um project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: charted . user interface: we should think of the twelve fifty we have industrial designer: to refill the user interface: but marketing: yeah , user interface: i do n't know how much that 's going to uh marketing: but we do n't we do n't have any costs now , industrial designer: yeah . okay , marketing: so yeah . industrial designer: because i uh when you get an lcd screen , you run it on batteries , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: the batteries will be uh empty very soon , very fast . marketing: yeah e e power supply is one of the most important things . user interface: you should perhaps you should be able to to switch the control off . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: if you have an lcd screen that 's burns all the time i dunno . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . yeah . user interface: you should n't on and off because that 's ver extra , that you have t first you have to turn the remote on , and then you can uh project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: i do n't know . industrial designer: uh marketing: yeah , i think it 's it 's not that easy because i do n't think people will like it who who uh that you have to turn it on first and then use it , user interface: nee that 's that 's uh yeah . marketing: so i think it 's better when th the tv shuts down , the remote shuts down . user interface: but then you ca n't industrial designer: and go to standby mode when you do n't use it , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so that marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah yeah au automac matically , that it yeah . industrial designer: yeah , automatically . after two minutes or three minutes , something like that . marketing: yeah . after two minutes , yeah two three minutes , yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . and maybe a low battery indicator ? on the screen . industrial designer: yeah . sure . project manager: marketing: yeah . user interface: marketing: and then b that uh industrial designer: marketing: before an hour when its get again gets empty . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: then you have plenty of time to recharge it , industrial designer: mm . marketing: of put it in a recharger . charger . project manager: so we are going for the for the recharger . user interface: project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , if it 's . uh . user interface: if it 's sensible . marketing: yeah , because when you 're watching tv , you 're zapping and you have to put it in a recharger , user interface: yeah . yeah , b when the batteries are low industrial designer: no , marketing: and i do n't think it industrial designer: when you when you 're done with s uh w uh watching your television , you have to put it marketing: yeah , okay , but then we have to be sure that the the the the batteries go hours , six hours , five , six hours , then . user interface: but you 'll also forget to put it in , industrial designer: yeah sure , of course . user interface: because you throw it on the couch industrial designer: yeah , marketing: yeah , industrial designer: but marketing: then you have a problem . user interface: and you do n't remember . industrial designer: but you also forget to buy batteries , user interface: yeah . that 's right . industrial designer: and then you can you ca n't use it , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so i marketing: or we have to be sure that the batteries last couple of days when they 're recharged . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: well i think the batteries should should w should work a lot longer than a couple of days , marketing: so . user interface: or not ? marketing: yeah because you have b user interface: 'cause marketing: but you have lcd screen . user interface: yeah , that 's right , but marketing: high power usage . industrial designer: high power user cell , i uh it should be uh a standard move to to put your remote control in the charger when you 're done watching television , marketing: yes . industrial designer: that 's also a a a great advantage because you ca n't lose it anymore . because you are obliged to uh put it in the charger and not to uh leave it in a couch uh between some cushions . marketing: true . yeah . yeah . true . user interface: yeah . right . industrial designer: okay . marketing: yeah , you made a point there . user interface: but then you also have to s have somewhere where you can put a remo recharger near your couch project manager: yeah , also . user interface: because otherwise you have to walk a long way when you twoft want to turn on the tv . marketing: yeah , otherwise all your yeah . just a small device . user interface: yeah . i think everything has it for and i guess . industrial designer: yeah it has n't it does n't have to be big . marketing: plug it in , that 's it . yeah , like a like telephone charger or something . industrial designer: yeah just just a cable , or a even a a a a a charger where you can mount it on . something like that , marketing: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: just u user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . user interface: alright . project manager: okay , well i 've marketing: it has to be easy to use also , or things . uh market share , speaker re speech recognition . project manager: yeah , you have some more user interface: project manager: points . industrial designer: functional designs uh for the elderly uh you could make it possible to enlarge the screen , marketing: i think . industrial designer: so make it possible to not uh display uh a button at ten points marketing: also . industrial designer: uh , or marketing: well i think that this should be standard . large button large buttons . industrial designer: yeah but it is uh one of the functions you have to uh specify . marketing: yeah ? okay . industrial designer: because we can look at uh uh perhaps uh forty buttons at a screen , but the elderly only look at two buttons . project manager: marketing: industrial designer: okay . marketing: . project manager: and you said something about speech recognition ? marketing: yeah , industrial designer: speech recognition ? marketing: it says also industrial designer: hello . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , industrial designer: twelve euro user interface: twelve fifty , twelve fifty . industrial designer: twelve euro fifty . marketing: twelve . that 's an also ninety one percent sixteen to twenty five , twenty six to thirty five years , seventy six percent , and thirty six to forty five , thirty five percent . user interface: so it 's pretty big . industrial designer: well , spread it by a big market . marketing: but then i i i project manager: even bigger than for lcd . user interface: yeah . w i know let 's do a speech . industrial designer: well marketing: yeah . industrial designer: let 's leave out all the remote controls and just put a microphone on top of the television to user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah . ninety . twenty five . user interface: you can clap or something . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: channel . industrial designer: turn volume up . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: hey , that that 's an idea . marketing: user interface: now you should n't say the wrong thing , i dunno . industrial designer: okay , well marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that should it has to be remote control , not marketing: yeah , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: twelve . user interface: but they want to talk into the remo remote control , or something , industrial designer: sure why not why not marketing: yeah . user interface: or ? marketing: is this only would you would you pay more for speech recognition in a remote control . it 's the only thing it says . industrial designer: yeah , mm . user interface: oh , but do we want to implement that , or ? marketing: i think an lcd screen should be suf sufficient . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: but when you look at the percentages marketing: yeah , it says a lot , but project manager: speech recognition scores even higher , huh ? industrial designer: perhaps the options should be uh why not ? user interface: project manager: yeah , well , industrial designer: why not ? project manager: maybe because of the cost , but uh nobody knows uh how much uh it will cost uh . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: let 's hope uh to have some uh d user interface: i know marketing: no i think i think it 's better to have l_ lcd screen , because in the area of tw thirty six to forty five , we have about thirty percent of the market share in in our hands , and fifty five of those people want lcd screen and thirty five want speech recognition . so i think it 's better to keep it with lcd screen . project manager: but would it be useful to imple implement both ? user interface: mm . project manager: on one remote ? marketing: yeah , if the costs al allow it . project manager: or user interface: well project manager: yeah , i dunno . user interface: i do n't know if that can be done with the cost of twelve fifty . marketing: nee . user interface: with that uh marketing: if it should be done , if it could be done , i wo n't matter . yeah . user interface: yeah , industrial designer: we should do it . yeah . sure . user interface: but how would you like to implement that , that you say volume up , and then it goes up , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: or ? marketing: yeah . user interface: uh . industrial designer: certain systems already exist , i think . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: then you also have to have different languages if we go international . then uh it 's y it 's yours to do a french and dutch and english marketing: true . industrial designer: true , yeah . marketing: yeah . true . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but that should also be with f should be also with lcd screen . industrial designer: this should be uh accommodated with some software , uh , uh . yeah . marketing: because then i think in chinese is different written , volume is different written than um swahili or something . user interface: yeah , that 's right . yeah . industrial designer: right . swahili . swahili . user interface: yeah you can use icons for the industrial designer: yeah . user interface: a speaker and uh marketing: ja , well possible . industrial designer: indeed . user interface: but if that 's better than language for the for the remote . marketing: yeah , yeah yeah yeah industrial designer: yeah . so we want to uh yeah it 's international uh okay . user interface: then it 's yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: 'kay , what else ? project manager: so , no speech recognition ? or user interface: well , if it could be done , we marketing: yeah , industrial designer: y it should be done . if it could be done , should be done . marketing: we have to keep yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , and then we have different languages . user interface: yeah , that should be uh anything matters . industrial designer: that 's not so difficult at all , project manager: okay , just make a separate remote for each uh industrial designer: because i already use on several voice operated systems , and they are all possible to uh not all , but user interface: well , you sh you should to adjust the thing . marketing: i think it 's difficult . every language of dialects user interface: yeah . marketing: i think it 's very differen difficult . user interface: and you have to speak the so that it can understand . marketing: yeah . i think it ca n't be implemented , but maybe user interface: you could use that n as an option , if you have money left , or something . marketing: yeah , 's an option , yes . industrial designer: yeah , sure , indeed . marketing: fifty euro cents . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: user interface: let 's do speech . industrial designer: for speech recognition . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , so we only do this when we have enough money left . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . well i 've written down an an on or off button , volume selection , channel selection , uh the digits from one to zero , huh . um or from zero to nine . uh a digits button to switch uh between one and two digits , mute button , a separate menu for teletext , a battery indicator . um we 're going to use a docking station and uh probably lcd and if there 's enough money , speech recognition . and uh the possibility to uh enlarge buttons or to have large buttons user interface: mm . yeah . marketing: mm , yes . project manager: in general . user interface: i with uh teletext if it was n't ver very important , it was but marketing: no , but user interface: you also now have colours . i do n't know if we should implement that . yeah , marketing: curved ? user interface: when you press the red button , you go to page one hundred two , and when you press the industrial designer: uh yeah . user interface: i do n't know if we should implement that , marketing: um . user interface: because it says that teletext not really important , industrial designer: s shortcuts . uh . user interface: but yeah , the shortcut , and you ca n't go to sport . marketing: i think we should we could that we could also implement a audio settings , screen settings and channel settings , but as sub-menus . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm . marketing: d mainly if you turn the uh remote control on , you have to u you have to see from one till zero , channel and volume . and if you want to use teletext screen or audio , then you can press it . industrial designer: sh yeah , just just sub-menu . yeah . marketing: it should be available but not user interface: 'cause it should be there . industrial designer: not directly uh available . marketing: not yeah . yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: okay , so not too much teletext support , but in a separate menu , and industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah . user interface: so actually it is there but it 's just not r ready there . marketing: yeah , but s industrial designer: directly available . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so does it confuse uh the user ? user interface: you 'll have to search for it . marketing: they 'd have to be easy to use . industrial designer: uh . i 'll search um . user interface: industrial designer: if you want to use teletext , you can push the teletext button and then the options uh become available . user interface: yeah . yeah , that 's a marketing: the sign of it . project manager: okay , but no more buttons or functions , or ? user interface: i guess not . industrial designer: no . marketing: uh , no . what else can you do with a television ? user interface: we 've got anon project manager: are n't we forgetting something very important ? user interface: have got got two examples here , but i do n't think there 's anything we 're missing . marketing: uh play , pause , does n't n need to be there . user interface: well , we do n't have the video orders marketing: yes , so this is your presentation . we could check the other remote controls with technical functions . user interface: yeah , you could look here all the the marketing: which ones were yours ? user interface: uh th th th th i do n't know , technical functions . marketing: techni user interface: they 're a bit small , you can we should stretch them , because project manager: ping . marketing: ja ja ja ja ja . technical functions . yeah okay . user interface: i guess we 've got them all . marketing: uh i think i go to have volume , mute but i yeah . very slow . yeah , the zoom buttons . user interface: and for a tv ? can you zoom in a tv ? marketing: yeah , b wide screen , high screen , different things you have , user interface: or that you can put 'em on uh on on wide and marketing: yeah different uh user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: but that should also be a sub then , a sub uh menu thing . industrial designer: menu . marketing: yeah it should be available , but then in separate screen settings or something . user interface: yeah , so we should also implement se screen settings . industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah , screen settings , audio settings , teletext settings you have . user interface: oh right . yeah . marketing: channel settings . user interface: yeah , so you can program the marketing: so those four , and of course the main . user interface: yeah , so the first you see the main , and the other ones you can uh go to uh marketing: yeah . yeah . like tap screens or something user interface: yeah . marketing: or , i dunno . user interface: i hope we can do this . marketing: something industrial designer: there are a lot of options depending uh on what kind of television you got . marketing: yeah , if uh industrial designer: 'cause if you do n't got a wide screen television you do n't need the uh the screen settings marketing: no , you do n't yu a no you then you do n't no ni do n't industrial designer: uh for uh marketing: then you do n't use it . industrial designer: yeah and if the television does not support such uh operations marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we do n't have to use that top . yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so you leave it alone . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . or it could be possible to have a a standard version of the remote , an expanded version . user interface: yeah . and do we want them in different colours , or marketing: yeah . user interface: and and the buttons , should they have colours ? marketing: colours . yeah . industrial designer: colours i think the main colour of the remote control is uh the colour of the lcd screen . user interface: oh but we do n't have any buttons . yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i because we do n't want a lot a devi yeah a device self s g marketing: yeah , then defines itself . because uh how many percent ? eighty percent ? user interface: they think it 's ugly , right ? marketing: would spend more money if it looks fancy . industrial designer: okay , so use uh very uh lot of peo user interface: perhaps you can uh make adjustable fronts , like with the telephones . industrial designer: adjust with phones , yes user interface: you can uh but i do n't think that uh industrial designer: okay . twelve euro fifty . well , make it available in different colours , you mean ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: sure . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: red , white , blue , black . user interface: project manager: and a see-through uh marketing: rasta colours . industrial designer: grey . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah sea view , yes , simpson 's versions and marketing: yeah , see through version . yeah . if you press a button , it turns green . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , well industrial designer: leave . project manager: that 's the user interface: a disco version . project manager: signal for las final five minutes . user interface: five minutes ? project manager: um so i have uh the things i just read . um then we have uh separate menus for teletext , screen settings , audio settings , and what else ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: channel settings ? user interface: oh yeah , right . project manager: channel settings . user interface: so you can program the tv . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: mm . user interface: perhaps you should you 'd throw them on on in one pile . so , options , and then you sub them . marketing: yeah . could be possible . user interface: otherwise you have all those teletext , perhaps teletext not , industrial designer: mm . user interface: but marketing: or like uh you have a menu button , you press project manager: no , we said teletext also a separate menu . user interface: yeah , but i marketing: yeah , or otherwise you have a menu button , press menu then you have uh main uh menu search uh all the all the settings . user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay , but we can work that out later , i guess . user interface: but marketing: yeah , no problem . yep . project manager: so we 're having a a general menu with the most used functions , uh teletext , screen settings , audio settings , channel settings , and maybe there are options for the remote itself ? like uh large icons or small icons user interface: i do n't know . project manager: and i do n't know what else , marketing: um , project manager: but industrial designer: no . marketing: i think b because we do n't have a lot of buttons on the one screen , user interface: or do we have any buttons ? on the remote . marketing: i think the buttons yeah , but but or like you have user interface: which one ? marketing: you only have channel button or volume button . those buttons you can you can project manager: yeah , but on the lcd , user interface: but that 's also in the lcd , project manager: huh ? user interface: right ? marketing: yeah . project manager: right , yeah , okay . user interface: so we do n't have any normal buttons marketing: yeah , th user interface: that uh marketing: no , no normal buttons , yeah . user interface: no , alright . marketing: maybe only the on and o on and off button . user interface: yet on and off is p is perhaps you kno project manager: but we do n't need a special industrial designer: uh not button marketing: but i do n't think project manager: we do n't need a special options menu for the remote itself . user interface: no , no . marketing: mm , no . project manager: okay . user interface: oh well , you should be able to set which tv you have . if you have if you have uh industrial designer: yeah sure , of course you need uh a settings button , uh or a settings option for the remote control . user interface: yeah . but is n't idea to use uh uh what you said , uh normal on and off button for the tv , that you do n't have to use a marketing: no no no , because we we discussed that you could charge it , otherwise is it it jumps to stand-by mode automatically . user interface: yeah but but not for the remote but for the tv , that you use marketing: yeah , but a tv of course , th that 's the i think that 's a best thing is that to implement that one in the menu with the volume and channel . user interface: but a not as normal button , in the lcd , marketing: no . project manager: well maybe there should be a separate button apart from the lcd , user interface: yeah . project manager: because you ca n't turn it on when the lcd is off . so how do you turn the thing on ? there has to be a on button on the remote , user interface: no you just tap i think . project manager: huh ? industrial designer: just tap it . marketing: yeah , you tap . project manager: tap the thing . okay . marketing: touch screen , yeah then it 's turn turn off , turn on . project manager: and then the television is on also , or just the remote ? marketing: no , just the remote . user interface: but marketing: a television do n't have to be on , that one you can press on , industrial designer: yeah , it should be in standby mode , but marketing: yeah stand-by , then press on remote , press on and then tv should be available . or not . user interface: yeah a yeah . i do n't know whether it 's handy to have a n a normal on button , a r just uh rubber uh for for tv , marketing: separate . user interface: so you can turn it on and then you can choose the channel . otherwise you i do n't know whether or not that 's industrial designer: a a a normal button on the remote control , user interface: yeah , yeah . to turn it on . industrial designer: or norm ? user interface: of or you should put it in the lcd screen . industrial designer: yeah , because uh when you touch the lcd screen when it is in standby mode , it should pop on . user interface: yeah , i have , project manager: okay , well user interface: yeah . industrial designer: wh uh why would it be a a need to have a normal button ? user interface: well i i guess if you use the lcd screen , you first have to search where is the on button , then you uh you you then turn it , and then the tv goes on . but if you have a normal on button on the on the remote , then you do the on , and then you search the channel which you want . marketing: yeah , but i think the re the remote control , if you press tap the screen , it always should jump to the screen which has the volume button , channel button , and of course of also the on and off button . industrial designer: mm . user interface: oh right . industrial designer: i think it looks a lot more fancy if you use uh if you do n't have any buttons on the s on on remote control . user interface: yeah , i think so too . otherwise y wet e k yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so actually we 're going to create a a button-less uh remote . no buttons at all . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , well that 's might be a unique selling point , huh for a remote . user interface: if we can afford it . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , well i guess we have to industrial designer: oh , okay marketing: yeah , if we can afford it . yeah . project manager: postpone further discussion to uh our next meeting , because we 're running out of time . um for now , we 're having a lunch break , industrial designer: oh . project manager: and then there will be uh half an hour for the uh next share of individual work . i will uh write uh minutes , if i can create them out of this . and uh put them in the the project documents uh folder . user interface: industrial designer: mm . project manager: and here are the individual actions for the for the other roles . and of course specific instructions will be sent to you again by your uh personal coach . user interface: alright . project manager: luckily as we are . okay , well user interface: project manager: thank you very much , for now , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh have a nice lunch , huh ? user interface: lunch . industrial designer: okay . user interface: industrial designer: food . user interface: should we put this back in our rooms , or uh ? industrial designer: yeah , think so . user interface: yeah .

project manager said that remote control should only work with tv . marketing thought the basics should be volume , channel and one till two zero numbers . users interface suggested remote control should with a button you can change from one number to two numbers .

what was the main target age about remote control ? </s> project manager: good morning , again . industrial designer: one question . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: send . user interface: choose a number ? industrial designer: submit . marketing: yep yep yep yep . project manager: all set ? industrial designer: mm . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: good . okay . let 's see what we can find here . okay . a very warm welcome again to everyone . user interface: project manager: um here we are already at our uh functional design meeting . um and this is what we are going to do . the opening , which we are doing now , um and the special note , i 'm project manager but on the meetings i 'm also the secretary , which means i will make uh minutes as i did of the previous meeting . industrial designer: project manager: and uh i also put these as fast as possible in the uh project folder , so you can see them and review what we have discussed . um if i 'm right , there are three presentations , i guess each one of you has prepared one ? good . user interface: yes . project manager: and um we will also take a look at new project requirements , um if you have n't heard about them yet . and then of course we have to take a decision on the remote control functions and we have some more time , forty minutes . but i think we will need it . um well i do n't know who wants to go first with his presentation . industrial designer: i 'll go first . okay . i 'll go first yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: you can go first , okay . user interface: well . marketing: well , shall i go first with the users ? user interface: well marketing: i think well okay no problem . project manager: is there an order ? i have n't user interface: everybody already has his presentation , marketing: ja precies , ja precies , ja precies user interface: so you can adjust it . industrial designer: so . huh ? okay , um project manager: and one question , uh your name denni , is it with a marketing: e_i_e_ . project manager: i_e_ e_i_e_ , okay . thank you . user interface: industrial designer: okay , um i wanted to explain the working design of the remote control . it 's possibly very handy if you want to uh design one of those . um well so it basically works uh as i uh uh r wrote down uh in this uh little uh summary . uh when you press a button , uh that 's when you do pr for example when you uh want to turn up the volume , um a little connection is made uh the the rubber uh button just presses on a project manager: sorry . marketing: user interface: industrial designer: on a little print plate uh which uh makes uh uh a connection that uh gives the chips , uh which is uh mounted beneath those uh that plastic of a rubber button . uh senses that a connection has been made , and know and knows what button you pressed , becau uh for example the the volume up or volume down button . um uh the the chip uh makes a morse code uh like uh signal which uh then is si uh signalled to uh several transistors which makes uh which sends the signal to a little let . you know what a let is ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . and that makes uh the the infra-red lights signal which is sent to the television set . uh which has a sensor in it to uh sense uh the signal of the infra-red . that 's basically uh how it works . um the findings uh uh that i found uh searching up some uh detailed information about the remote controls , are that uh they are very easy to produce , uh it is pis uh it 's possible to uh make them in mass production because it is as eas it is as easy as uh printing a page , uh just uh fibreglass plate um is b uh is uh covered with uh some uh coatings and uh uh and chips . user interface: industrial designer: uh and the technology 's already available , we do n't have to find out how remote controls uh have to work or uh how that how uh to make some chips that are possible to uh to to transmit those uh signals . uh i made a little uh uh animation of about how a tran our uh remote controller works . user interface: marketing: user interface: oh right . marketing: animation . user interface: industrial designer: we tel user interface: there is something turning . industrial designer: there . project manager: yeah , it 's a little bug it 's in the in the smart board . industrial designer: okay . uh well user interface: industrial designer: the sub-component , i suppose that you understand what a sub-component is , is f in this example it 's the button . uh when it is pressed down , um , the switch is ter is uh is switched on , so with uh the wire is sent to the to the chip in uh co-operation with the battery of course , because to make uh a a signal possible you have to have some sort of uh li uh a d ad uh electronic uh user interface: marketing: infrared light . industrial designer: yes , uh , okay . um w after it 's being composed by the chip uh the signal uh is transported uh to the infra-red bulb , and from there it signals a morse code-like signal to the to the b to the bulb in uh in the television set . okay . s uh i wrote down some personal preferences about uh the remote control . of course it is very handy if the remote control is hand held , so you do n't have to uh uh wind it up or something , or just is it 's it 's very light to uh to make uh to use it . uh i personally uh pref prefer that uh it would be p uh come available in the various colours , and uh easy to use buttons . but i suppose that the one of the other team members uh uh thought of that uh too . user interface: yeah , i 've got it there too . industrial designer: and it is possible for several designs and um easy to use b uh sorry , easy to use buttons . perhaps soft touch , uh touch screen uh buttons because uh the rubber buttons are always uh uh they uh slightly uh they can be slightly damaged , marketing: industrial designer: uh so the numbers on the buttons are not possible uh to read anymore . and uh well as i said uh before th uh we can uh make several designs . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay , well , that 's my contribution to this meeting , and uh marketing: to this meeting . project manager: okay , thank you . user interface: industrial designer: two of these this meeting . so . user interface: shall i go uh next ? project manager: yep . user interface: 'kay . project manager: please . user interface: so . marketing: smoking . user interface: well uh , my name 's , and i looked at uh technical functions design of the remote . uh i did this by uh looking at examples of other remote controls , of how they uh they look , and information from the web that i found . um well what i found was that uh th the actual use of the remote control is to send messages to television set , how you uh d what you described uh just early . and this can be all sorts of medsa messages , turn it on , turn it off , uh change the channel , adjust volume , that kind of thing . uh play video , teletext , but also t uh play c_d_ if you use it your c_d_ player the remote control will that one . there are some uh examples of remote controls . you can see they are very different . the one has got all the functions that you could possibly need and an lot of uh buttons etcetera . and the other is uh more user friendly , little with big buttons . and uh not n all the the the the stuff you can do with it , but uh the the essential stuff is there . um i guess you could better y you should look at a a user centred uh approach , because the customers have to use them and and if they do n't think it 's usable they wo n't uh buy it . a lot of buttons they may think from i do n't need s as much as that . uh , well perf personal preferences is is uh a simple remote , with uh the basic functions that you can need that you could use . but uh keep in mind the new functions of tv what we discussed earlier , split screen and uh is that a function that you should have ? because all the tvs will have them . or because of only a few and is n't really necessary . and then uh make it i would make so that you can could uh use it on more than one appliance . if you have one that uh uh does with the vi the the video , it could also work with uh with the stereo , because play is play and stop stop and that sort of thing . the shu c you could reuse the buttons so that you do n't have to have a lot of buttons for uh anything . and it should be a user friendly , clear buttons , and not too much . and that is my presentation . project manager: okay , thank you . industrial designer: okay . marketing: 'kay . check . industrial designer: user interface: you must still have it open . marketing: kijke 'kay , so . we 're going to j discuss the functional requirements of the remote , that m that means that functions user n want to have on the remote control , or just yeah , and the users , actually . industrial designer: marketing: the methods i i prefer is we 're going to look which section of the users we are going to focus a l on more . are the younger people going to buy the remote control or the elderly people ? and then tho that section we 're going to focus and adjust the remote more to that section than the whole user section . okay . some data . younger people , from sixteen to thir forty five um years are more interested in fj features like lcd screens , speech recognition e etcetera . and we possess about two third of the market from in that range of age . the elderly people , from forty five years to sixty five years are not that much interested in features , and we possess less than two third , that 's two fifth , of the market share in that area . goed so . project manager: industrial designer: hmm . marketing: 'kay . findings . fifty percent of the users lose their remote often . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: so we do n't have to make it very small , like uh like a mobile phone or something , but some somewhat bi bigger than small , so you do n't lose it that much anymore . seventy five percent of the users also find it ugly , industrial designer: mm . marketing: and fif seventy five of the users zap a lot , so the buttons sh should be that small , or should n't be that complex because we have to search for the buttons , which one are you going to use . next . important issues about the remote . i think it would be better with a personal reference , but okay . remote control has to have to have a low power usage , because s w seventy five percent of the users only zap one time an hour , so the power usage is also one one time an hour , or so , with a high power usage we would use a lot of but batteries . the volume button and the channel buttons are the two most important buttons on the remote control , so those they those have to h be find very easily . and have to be somewhat like bigger etcetera . it has also be have to find easily when the label is gone . my colleague also announced it that labels should be scratched off industrial designer: mm . user interface: hmm . marketing: or would be s uh senden user interface: marketing: okay . so uh if that 's k uh if that 's the problem , you also have to find it easily on the remote . buttons . like what all colleagues said , have to have to be minimalized . or should be covered , or in lcd screen . lcd screen is easy because we have the lcd screen , we have the various options . put one option and then you have the all the buttons of that options , so the other options would be gone . and you do n't see the buttons . so lcd screens should be easy , but an lcd screen , the problem with the l_ sc lcd screen is that elderly people fr from forty five to for sixty five years do n't use the lcd screen a lot . so we have to that keep that in mind that if you 're going to implement lcd screen , you do n't have to make it that hard to learn or to use . industrial designer: uh lcd screen as in uh touch screen ? marketing: yeah , touch screen , yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: the last but not least , younger people are more critical about the features . because they use the remote control often more often , and are more technical than the ol older people . and the older people spend more money , and easily on a remote control . user interface: mm . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: so we have to keep in mind to to focus not a lot not that much on the younger pep younger people , but also somewhat on the elderly people . and on my personal preferences , i do n't have any mo more time to come with that , user interface: marketing: but like i said , lcd screen is easily to use industrial designer: marketing: because you have you can implement a lot of buttons in one remote with not that much buttons . and it should be easy to use . especially the volume buttons , the channel buttes buttons and the number buttons to zap through the channels . and that is it . project manager: okay , industrial designer: okay . project manager: thank you . user interface: oh right . project manager: um , well thank you all , huh . i dunno uh did everyone receive an email with uh the new project requirements ? user interface: no . res i did not . project manager: no ? well , user interface: perhaps the rest ? industrial designer: no . project manager: then i think it 's a good thing that i made a separate slide of them marketing: ja , project manager: so you can all read them . oh , well not in this presentation . hmm user interface: project manager: should be in there . well , i can tell you them uh from my laptop . um teletext does has become outdated since the popularity of the internet . user interface: oh . mm . project manager: so that 's uh the first thing we i think we should pay less attention to uh teletext . uh the remote control should only be used for the television , otherwise the project becomes more complex , which endangers the time to market , and of course would make it more costly , i think . um our current customers are within the age group of forty plus , and new product should reach a new market with customers that are younger than forty , and you talked about that before . and uh a last point , but also very important , our corporate image should stay recognisable in our products , which means that our uh corporate colour and slogan must be implemented in the new design . so we have to keep that in mind . um well uh according to our agenda it 's then time to take a decision on the remote control functions . so , who has any idea about what should be on it , and what should n't ? user interface: well you said it should only uh work with one appliance ? marketing: be television . user interface: or with one uh d che only the tv ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . only be used for television . user interface: and the video also , or not uh ? project manager: well it says only for television here , huh . marketing: only the television . user interface: oh . alright . okay . project manager: makes it a lot easier , huh ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm . marketing: so yeah , then you can yeah . requirements , no ? functions . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then it should have uh on , off , industrial designer: yeah for user interface: and uh industrial designer: standby options , marketing: yeah , the basics then by a volume , channel , one till two zero numbers on it , industrial designer: yeah ? uh yeah . user interface: yeah . and per perhaps uh marketing: oh teletext does n't have to be ? user interface: no . marketing: um other functions . user interface: well uh uh yes yes s sh a button where you can uh change from one number to two numbers . marketing: yeah i had industrial designer: two s two two digits , marketing: yeah , yeah . user interface: can you industrial designer: oh okay . user interface: do n't know if that 's got a name , industrial designer: yeah i understand what you mean . yeah . user interface: but marketing: i think it 's i think it 's easy to implement a button with a s s what which especially do that , because some tvs , if you press the t one and then the two , it be between five secs it make twelve , industrial designer: it makes it twelve , yeah . user interface: yeah . s industrial designer: indeed . okay . marketing: and that 's that 's not relaxed industrial designer: well , not really marketing: to user . industrial designer: and and there are some models that do n't uh accommodate that function . so marketing: yeah . industrial designer: d uh wh the philip 's television makes it possible in that indeed to uh press one and then two to make uh the uh tj to reach channel twelve . marketing: so that it easy and fast . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but uh all the television makes uh use of those button where you first press that button and then press two digits to uh to get marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah , so you should have that one on . industrial designer: uh yeah , think so . marketing: our main targets ' age are ? were ? forty five plus , or ? user interface: mute misschien also . project manager: uh well industrial designer: mm . project manager: new product should reach a market with customers that are younger than forty , and now we have current customers uh of forty plus . marketing: forties , okay because because younger people as uh younger people have now , sixteen till to twenty five age , are f eighty one percent interested in lcd screen . from twenty six to thirty five have sixty six percent , and thirty six to forty five , fifty five percent , so i think to um because on most recog remote controls um the print plate will be broken how much , two years . you have to press h very hard to go to the next channel . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: with the lcd screen it 's easier because you only have to wipe the screen to uh for fingerprint , industrial designer: yeah , we we could yeah . but i think that uh that collides with our mission to make it very cheap . marketing: and then you can use it again . industrial designer: because lcd screens are very expensive . marketing: yeah , okay . user interface: an industrial designer: a touch screen uh probably uh even more . marketing: yeah but a you do n't know industrial designer: so , marketing: true . industrial designer: true , true . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: but uh well um is it possible to make an lcd screen uh , how was the information ? marketing: yeah , it only says that this perce percentage like lcd screen . because , yeah and it says that younger age between sixteen and forty five highly interesting features more critical . industrial designer: so perhaps we should we should focus on that lcd screen . marketing: and if the only f yeah , because our target is sixteen to forty five . user interface: but , do you industrial designer: yeah but uh will we not uh exceed our uh our uh production uh marketing: yeah you do n't know how much it costs . yeah , you do n't know how much it costs , the lcd screen . industrial designer: is it possible to find out , anyway ? marketing: no , i do n't have any costs here , industrial designer: you know ? marketing: i only have percentages . user interface: but if you would do an lcd screen do we have don do n't you have any buttons ? or because if it only directs at the tv , then you only have uh i do n't know what you want to do with the lcd screen . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: no , an lcd screen 's just like uh like a drawn here . um just uh displays several buttons , user interface: yeah ? industrial designer: for example um if you wanted the minimal uh use b uh buttons , such as channel and volume , you just h uh displays four buttons on the screen user interface: oh right , so you can industrial designer: and it 's possible to p uh press them down , just like a touch screen . user interface: oh , yeah alright . so you can adjust which buttons you want on that s screen . industrial designer: yeah , we can make it possible to do that , yeah . marketing: yeah , if you want to adjust , like for example , adjust the audio settings , you press audio on the touchscreen industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: and you get the buttons for audio settings , user interface: yeah alright , oh right . marketing: so the other buttons are gone . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: so we 're going for an lcd screen ? user interface: yeah . would be yeah . marketing: i think it 's the most easier thing , industrial designer: that 's my uh project manager: and hoping that when we produce a lot it wo n't be too expensive . marketing: yeah . user interface: well we had twelve fifty , i guess , for uh production ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: no . yeah . industrial designer: twelve fifty . marketing: industrial designer: um . user interface: any guesses ? industrial designer: marketing: industrial designer: well i suppose wi if the mar if our um if the i if the young people are interested in lcd screens , we should make 'em . marketing: highly . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and if that is our d uh market share to uh and our goal to uh deliver those uh remote controls user interface: but but he also said that we should not only focus on the younger people , but also on the older , and will they use it if it only has an lcd screen ? marketing: yeah , but um , s forty six to forty five , thirty three percent , and sixty fifty six to sixty five twelve percent . user interface: oh , so still a little bit people marketing: but our our our what 's it , project requirements are the new products should be reached for new markets , to customers that are younger than forty . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah that 's right . but you do n't want to alienate the other uh marketing: no , that not now , but , so user interface: but if they also buy it then it 's alright . i guess . marketing: yeah , but market share fro for for forty years and younger is higher than that of sixty five and younger . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . alright . project manager: okay , so lcd it is ? user interface: an yes . project manager: okay . industrial designer: mm . it 's treasure . project manager: and what else ? industrial designer: i hope we uh h and let 's hope to reach those uh those sales . marketing: yeah , i i if it yeah , if it costs gets too much , too expensive , then yeah , we should be sticking to rubber buttons . project manager: user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , can you um uh s i think that that they will send you some information about uh the cost of lcd uh screens . user interface: yeah . marketing: n nothing , no costs at all . user interface: but perhaps later , industrial designer: uh so if you uh user interface: so uh industrial designer: yeah , so if you uh you receive an email about that , uh can you post it in the or should n't we post that in uh our projects mail uh folder . marketing: yeah , in user interface: yeah . marketing: i think that should yeah i think we all get the costs of everything . user interface: i do n't industrial designer: because you are the the marketing uh expert . marketing: yeah , okay , i 'll i 'll post it . industrial designer: i uh user interface: well perhaps we should have a backup plan that we would use buttons if it 's uh too expensive . industrial designer: yeah sure , sure . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , okay . but for now it 's lcd . okay . marketing: okay , lcd , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: then you have the seventy five percent of users find it r ugly . industrial designer: user interface: the lcd ? oh that 's a bit of a problem . marketing: yeah , and eighty percent of the users would spend more money with a when a remote would look fancy . user interface: oh , that 's a bit of a problem . industrial designer: mm . marketing: tha i l i it 'll look fancy with lcd screen . yeah . industrial designer: it 's looks fancy one yeah , of lcd screen . user interface: yeah , but they do n't they do n't like it . project manager: yeah . user interface: they think it 's ugly . when it has an lcd screen . marketing: yeah , just a the plain remotes , not not specific lcd remotes . user interface: oh , alright , i thought that you said that . project manager: yeah , and maybe you can make something fancy out of an lcd remote , marketing: so project manager: because it 's new , as far as i know . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: industrial designer: mm yeah . marketing: yeah , of course . industrial designer: and then not yeah . marketing: and then you have the other thing , that seventy five percent zap a lot , but that 's not a f question with the lcd screen . industrial designer: um . yeah . marketing: only thing you have to do is wipe the screen off once each time , to get all the fingerprints off it . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm . okay ? project manager: okay , what else does our remote need ? user interface: a mute button . marketing: um project manager: mute button . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i think . and marketing: the most important things on a f on an on an uh remote control are channel selection , volume con selection , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and power s power usage . user interface: yeah . marketing: and a teletext , but that is not of the question . user interface: but but should n't you put a button of for teletext on the for the people who want to use it ? marketing: other things are sorry ? user interface: remembering we have got a big remote that you have to fill . marketing: yeah , it could be . yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . yeah , and we could make an a a separate menu on the lcd uh screen for teletext . marketing: yeah , teletext . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and there 's also a marketing: and other other less important things are screen settings , audio settings , and channel settings , user interface: yeah , they are less important , but i think they should be there , marketing: less important . user interface: or not ? marketing: yeah , should be there , industrial designer: a sh marketing: but not press industrial designer: but in a sub sub-menu or something like that . marketing: yeah , sub-menu , yeah . industrial designer: uh i think it 's also important to uh make it possible to um how do you call it in english , uh , to not use batteries , and use ac uh bat uh batteries to uh to be project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: like with a with a mouse , you have not , yeah . industrial designer: yeah yeah sure . indeed . so uh you can mount uh the the the uh marketing: yeah , in a breath it 's industrial designer: uh the remote control to um project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: charted . user interface: we should think of the twelve fifty we have industrial designer: to refill the user interface: but marketing: yeah , user interface: i do n't know how much that 's going to uh marketing: but we do n't we do n't have any costs now , industrial designer: yeah . okay , marketing: so yeah . industrial designer: because i uh when you get an lcd screen , you run it on batteries , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: the batteries will be uh empty very soon , very fast . marketing: yeah e e power supply is one of the most important things . user interface: you should perhaps you should be able to to switch the control off . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: if you have an lcd screen that 's burns all the time i dunno . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . yeah . user interface: you should n't on and off because that 's ver extra , that you have t first you have to turn the remote on , and then you can uh project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: i do n't know . industrial designer: uh marketing: yeah , i think it 's it 's not that easy because i do n't think people will like it who who uh that you have to turn it on first and then use it , user interface: nee that 's that 's uh yeah . marketing: so i think it 's better when th the tv shuts down , the remote shuts down . user interface: but then you ca n't industrial designer: and go to standby mode when you do n't use it , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so that marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah yeah au automac matically , that it yeah . industrial designer: yeah , automatically . after two minutes or three minutes , something like that . marketing: yeah . after two minutes , yeah two three minutes , yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . and maybe a low battery indicator ? on the screen . industrial designer: yeah . sure . project manager: marketing: yeah . user interface: marketing: and then b that uh industrial designer: marketing: before an hour when its get again gets empty . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: then you have plenty of time to recharge it , industrial designer: mm . marketing: of put it in a recharger . charger . project manager: so we are going for the for the recharger . user interface: project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , if it 's . uh . user interface: if it 's sensible . marketing: yeah , because when you 're watching tv , you 're zapping and you have to put it in a recharger , user interface: yeah . yeah , b when the batteries are low industrial designer: no , marketing: and i do n't think it industrial designer: when you when you 're done with s uh w uh watching your television , you have to put it marketing: yeah , okay , but then we have to be sure that the the the the batteries go hours , six hours , five , six hours , then . user interface: but you 'll also forget to put it in , industrial designer: yeah sure , of course . user interface: because you throw it on the couch industrial designer: yeah , marketing: yeah , industrial designer: but marketing: then you have a problem . user interface: and you do n't remember . industrial designer: but you also forget to buy batteries , user interface: yeah . that 's right . industrial designer: and then you can you ca n't use it , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so i marketing: or we have to be sure that the batteries last couple of days when they 're recharged . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: well i think the batteries should should w should work a lot longer than a couple of days , marketing: so . user interface: or not ? marketing: yeah because you have b user interface: 'cause marketing: but you have lcd screen . user interface: yeah , that 's right , but marketing: high power usage . industrial designer: high power user cell , i uh it should be uh a standard move to to put your remote control in the charger when you 're done watching television , marketing: yes . industrial designer: that 's also a a a great advantage because you ca n't lose it anymore . because you are obliged to uh put it in the charger and not to uh leave it in a couch uh between some cushions . marketing: true . yeah . yeah . true . user interface: yeah . right . industrial designer: okay . marketing: yeah , you made a point there . user interface: but then you also have to s have somewhere where you can put a remo recharger near your couch project manager: yeah , also . user interface: because otherwise you have to walk a long way when you twoft want to turn on the tv . marketing: yeah , otherwise all your yeah . just a small device . user interface: yeah . i think everything has it for and i guess . industrial designer: yeah it has n't it does n't have to be big . marketing: plug it in , that 's it . yeah , like a like telephone charger or something . industrial designer: yeah just just a cable , or a even a a a a a charger where you can mount it on . something like that , marketing: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: just u user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . user interface: alright . project manager: okay , well i 've marketing: it has to be easy to use also , or things . uh market share , speaker re speech recognition . project manager: yeah , you have some more user interface: project manager: points . industrial designer: functional designs uh for the elderly uh you could make it possible to enlarge the screen , marketing: i think . industrial designer: so make it possible to not uh display uh a button at ten points marketing: also . industrial designer: uh , or marketing: well i think that this should be standard . large button large buttons . industrial designer: yeah but it is uh one of the functions you have to uh specify . marketing: yeah ? okay . industrial designer: because we can look at uh uh perhaps uh forty buttons at a screen , but the elderly only look at two buttons . project manager: marketing: industrial designer: okay . marketing: . project manager: and you said something about speech recognition ? marketing: yeah , industrial designer: speech recognition ? marketing: it says also industrial designer: hello . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , industrial designer: twelve euro user interface: twelve fifty , twelve fifty . industrial designer: twelve euro fifty . marketing: twelve . that 's an also ninety one percent sixteen to twenty five , twenty six to thirty five years , seventy six percent , and thirty six to forty five , thirty five percent . user interface: so it 's pretty big . industrial designer: well , spread it by a big market . marketing: but then i i i project manager: even bigger than for lcd . user interface: yeah . w i know let 's do a speech . industrial designer: well marketing: yeah . industrial designer: let 's leave out all the remote controls and just put a microphone on top of the television to user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah . ninety . twenty five . user interface: you can clap or something . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: channel . industrial designer: turn volume up . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: hey , that that 's an idea . marketing: user interface: now you should n't say the wrong thing , i dunno . industrial designer: okay , well marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that should it has to be remote control , not marketing: yeah , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: twelve . user interface: but they want to talk into the remo remote control , or something , industrial designer: sure why not why not marketing: yeah . user interface: or ? marketing: is this only would you would you pay more for speech recognition in a remote control . it 's the only thing it says . industrial designer: yeah , mm . user interface: oh , but do we want to implement that , or ? marketing: i think an lcd screen should be suf sufficient . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: but when you look at the percentages marketing: yeah , it says a lot , but project manager: speech recognition scores even higher , huh ? industrial designer: perhaps the options should be uh why not ? user interface: project manager: yeah , well , industrial designer: why not ? project manager: maybe because of the cost , but uh nobody knows uh how much uh it will cost uh . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: let 's hope uh to have some uh d user interface: i know marketing: no i think i think it 's better to have l_ lcd screen , because in the area of tw thirty six to forty five , we have about thirty percent of the market share in in our hands , and fifty five of those people want lcd screen and thirty five want speech recognition . so i think it 's better to keep it with lcd screen . project manager: but would it be useful to imple implement both ? user interface: mm . project manager: on one remote ? marketing: yeah , if the costs al allow it . project manager: or user interface: well project manager: yeah , i dunno . user interface: i do n't know if that can be done with the cost of twelve fifty . marketing: nee . user interface: with that uh marketing: if it should be done , if it could be done , i wo n't matter . yeah . user interface: yeah , industrial designer: we should do it . yeah . sure . user interface: but how would you like to implement that , that you say volume up , and then it goes up , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: or ? marketing: yeah . user interface: uh . industrial designer: certain systems already exist , i think . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: then you also have to have different languages if we go international . then uh it 's y it 's yours to do a french and dutch and english marketing: true . industrial designer: true , yeah . marketing: yeah . true . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but that should also be with f should be also with lcd screen . industrial designer: this should be uh accommodated with some software , uh , uh . yeah . marketing: because then i think in chinese is different written , volume is different written than um swahili or something . user interface: yeah , that 's right . yeah . industrial designer: right . swahili . swahili . user interface: yeah you can use icons for the industrial designer: yeah . user interface: a speaker and uh marketing: ja , well possible . industrial designer: indeed . user interface: but if that 's better than language for the for the remote . marketing: yeah , yeah yeah yeah industrial designer: yeah . so we want to uh yeah it 's international uh okay . user interface: then it 's yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: 'kay , what else ? project manager: so , no speech recognition ? or user interface: well , if it could be done , we marketing: yeah , industrial designer: y it should be done . if it could be done , should be done . marketing: we have to keep yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , and then we have different languages . user interface: yeah , that should be uh anything matters . industrial designer: that 's not so difficult at all , project manager: okay , just make a separate remote for each uh industrial designer: because i already use on several voice operated systems , and they are all possible to uh not all , but user interface: well , you sh you should to adjust the thing . marketing: i think it 's difficult . every language of dialects user interface: yeah . marketing: i think it 's very differen difficult . user interface: and you have to speak the so that it can understand . marketing: yeah . i think it ca n't be implemented , but maybe user interface: you could use that n as an option , if you have money left , or something . marketing: yeah , 's an option , yes . industrial designer: yeah , sure , indeed . marketing: fifty euro cents . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: user interface: let 's do speech . industrial designer: for speech recognition . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , so we only do this when we have enough money left . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . well i 've written down an an on or off button , volume selection , channel selection , uh the digits from one to zero , huh . um or from zero to nine . uh a digits button to switch uh between one and two digits , mute button , a separate menu for teletext , a battery indicator . um we 're going to use a docking station and uh probably lcd and if there 's enough money , speech recognition . and uh the possibility to uh enlarge buttons or to have large buttons user interface: mm . yeah . marketing: mm , yes . project manager: in general . user interface: i with uh teletext if it was n't ver very important , it was but marketing: no , but user interface: you also now have colours . i do n't know if we should implement that . yeah , marketing: curved ? user interface: when you press the red button , you go to page one hundred two , and when you press the industrial designer: uh yeah . user interface: i do n't know if we should implement that , marketing: um . user interface: because it says that teletext not really important , industrial designer: s shortcuts . uh . user interface: but yeah , the shortcut , and you ca n't go to sport . marketing: i think we should we could that we could also implement a audio settings , screen settings and channel settings , but as sub-menus . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm . marketing: d mainly if you turn the uh remote control on , you have to u you have to see from one till zero , channel and volume . and if you want to use teletext screen or audio , then you can press it . industrial designer: sh yeah , just just sub-menu . yeah . marketing: it should be available but not user interface: 'cause it should be there . industrial designer: not directly uh available . marketing: not yeah . yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: okay , so not too much teletext support , but in a separate menu , and industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah . user interface: so actually it is there but it 's just not r ready there . marketing: yeah , but s industrial designer: directly available . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so does it confuse uh the user ? user interface: you 'll have to search for it . marketing: they 'd have to be easy to use . industrial designer: uh . i 'll search um . user interface: industrial designer: if you want to use teletext , you can push the teletext button and then the options uh become available . user interface: yeah . yeah , that 's a marketing: the sign of it . project manager: okay , but no more buttons or functions , or ? user interface: i guess not . industrial designer: no . marketing: uh , no . what else can you do with a television ? user interface: we 've got anon project manager: are n't we forgetting something very important ? user interface: have got got two examples here , but i do n't think there 's anything we 're missing . marketing: uh play , pause , does n't n need to be there . user interface: well , we do n't have the video orders marketing: yes , so this is your presentation . we could check the other remote controls with technical functions . user interface: yeah , you could look here all the the marketing: which ones were yours ? user interface: uh th th th th i do n't know , technical functions . marketing: techni user interface: they 're a bit small , you can we should stretch them , because project manager: ping . marketing: ja ja ja ja ja . technical functions . yeah okay . user interface: i guess we 've got them all . marketing: uh i think i go to have volume , mute but i yeah . very slow . yeah , the zoom buttons . user interface: and for a tv ? can you zoom in a tv ? marketing: yeah , b wide screen , high screen , different things you have , user interface: or that you can put 'em on uh on on wide and marketing: yeah different uh user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: but that should also be a sub then , a sub uh menu thing . industrial designer: menu . marketing: yeah it should be available , but then in separate screen settings or something . user interface: yeah , so we should also implement se screen settings . industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah , screen settings , audio settings , teletext settings you have . user interface: oh right . yeah . marketing: channel settings . user interface: yeah , so you can program the marketing: so those four , and of course the main . user interface: yeah , so the first you see the main , and the other ones you can uh go to uh marketing: yeah . yeah . like tap screens or something user interface: yeah . marketing: or , i dunno . user interface: i hope we can do this . marketing: something industrial designer: there are a lot of options depending uh on what kind of television you got . marketing: yeah , if uh industrial designer: 'cause if you do n't got a wide screen television you do n't need the uh the screen settings marketing: no , you do n't yu a no you then you do n't no ni do n't industrial designer: uh for uh marketing: then you do n't use it . industrial designer: yeah and if the television does not support such uh operations marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we do n't have to use that top . yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so you leave it alone . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . or it could be possible to have a a standard version of the remote , an expanded version . user interface: yeah . and do we want them in different colours , or marketing: yeah . user interface: and and the buttons , should they have colours ? marketing: colours . yeah . industrial designer: colours i think the main colour of the remote control is uh the colour of the lcd screen . user interface: oh but we do n't have any buttons . yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i because we do n't want a lot a devi yeah a device self s g marketing: yeah , then defines itself . because uh how many percent ? eighty percent ? user interface: they think it 's ugly , right ? marketing: would spend more money if it looks fancy . industrial designer: okay , so use uh very uh lot of peo user interface: perhaps you can uh make adjustable fronts , like with the telephones . industrial designer: adjust with phones , yes user interface: you can uh but i do n't think that uh industrial designer: okay . twelve euro fifty . well , make it available in different colours , you mean ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: sure . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: red , white , blue , black . user interface: project manager: and a see-through uh marketing: rasta colours . industrial designer: grey . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah sea view , yes , simpson 's versions and marketing: yeah , see through version . yeah . if you press a button , it turns green . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , well industrial designer: leave . project manager: that 's the user interface: a disco version . project manager: signal for las final five minutes . user interface: five minutes ? project manager: um so i have uh the things i just read . um then we have uh separate menus for teletext , screen settings , audio settings , and what else ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: channel settings ? user interface: oh yeah , right . project manager: channel settings . user interface: so you can program the tv . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: mm . user interface: perhaps you should you 'd throw them on on in one pile . so , options , and then you sub them . marketing: yeah . could be possible . user interface: otherwise you have all those teletext , perhaps teletext not , industrial designer: mm . user interface: but marketing: or like uh you have a menu button , you press project manager: no , we said teletext also a separate menu . user interface: yeah , but i marketing: yeah , or otherwise you have a menu button , press menu then you have uh main uh menu search uh all the all the settings . user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay , but we can work that out later , i guess . user interface: but marketing: yeah , no problem . yep . project manager: so we 're having a a general menu with the most used functions , uh teletext , screen settings , audio settings , channel settings , and maybe there are options for the remote itself ? like uh large icons or small icons user interface: i do n't know . project manager: and i do n't know what else , marketing: um , project manager: but industrial designer: no . marketing: i think b because we do n't have a lot of buttons on the one screen , user interface: or do we have any buttons ? on the remote . marketing: i think the buttons yeah , but but or like you have user interface: which one ? marketing: you only have channel button or volume button . those buttons you can you can project manager: yeah , but on the lcd , user interface: but that 's also in the lcd , project manager: huh ? user interface: right ? marketing: yeah . project manager: right , yeah , okay . user interface: so we do n't have any normal buttons marketing: yeah , th user interface: that uh marketing: no , no normal buttons , yeah . user interface: no , alright . marketing: maybe only the on and o on and off button . user interface: yet on and off is p is perhaps you kno project manager: but we do n't need a special industrial designer: uh not button marketing: but i do n't think project manager: we do n't need a special options menu for the remote itself . user interface: no , no . marketing: mm , no . project manager: okay . user interface: oh well , you should be able to set which tv you have . if you have if you have uh industrial designer: yeah sure , of course you need uh a settings button , uh or a settings option for the remote control . user interface: yeah . but is n't idea to use uh uh what you said , uh normal on and off button for the tv , that you do n't have to use a marketing: no no no , because we we discussed that you could charge it , otherwise is it it jumps to stand-by mode automatically . user interface: yeah but but not for the remote but for the tv , that you use marketing: yeah , but a tv of course , th that 's the i think that 's a best thing is that to implement that one in the menu with the volume and channel . user interface: but a not as normal button , in the lcd , marketing: no . project manager: well maybe there should be a separate button apart from the lcd , user interface: yeah . project manager: because you ca n't turn it on when the lcd is off . so how do you turn the thing on ? there has to be a on button on the remote , user interface: no you just tap i think . project manager: huh ? industrial designer: just tap it . marketing: yeah , you tap . project manager: tap the thing . okay . marketing: touch screen , yeah then it 's turn turn off , turn on . project manager: and then the television is on also , or just the remote ? marketing: no , just the remote . user interface: but marketing: a television do n't have to be on , that one you can press on , industrial designer: yeah , it should be in standby mode , but marketing: yeah stand-by , then press on remote , press on and then tv should be available . or not . user interface: yeah a yeah . i do n't know whether it 's handy to have a n a normal on button , a r just uh rubber uh for for tv , marketing: separate . user interface: so you can turn it on and then you can choose the channel . otherwise you i do n't know whether or not that 's industrial designer: a a a normal button on the remote control , user interface: yeah , yeah . to turn it on . industrial designer: or norm ? user interface: of or you should put it in the lcd screen . industrial designer: yeah , because uh when you touch the lcd screen when it is in standby mode , it should pop on . user interface: yeah , i have , project manager: okay , well user interface: yeah . industrial designer: wh uh why would it be a a need to have a normal button ? user interface: well i i guess if you use the lcd screen , you first have to search where is the on button , then you uh you you then turn it , and then the tv goes on . but if you have a normal on button on the on the remote , then you do the on , and then you search the channel which you want . marketing: yeah , but i think the re the remote control , if you press tap the screen , it always should jump to the screen which has the volume button , channel button , and of course of also the on and off button . industrial designer: mm . user interface: oh right . industrial designer: i think it looks a lot more fancy if you use uh if you do n't have any buttons on the s on on remote control . user interface: yeah , i think so too . otherwise y wet e k yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so actually we 're going to create a a button-less uh remote . no buttons at all . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , well that 's might be a unique selling point , huh for a remote . user interface: if we can afford it . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , well i guess we have to industrial designer: oh , okay marketing: yeah , if we can afford it . yeah . project manager: postpone further discussion to uh our next meeting , because we 're running out of time . um for now , we 're having a lunch break , industrial designer: oh . project manager: and then there will be uh half an hour for the uh next share of individual work . i will uh write uh minutes , if i can create them out of this . and uh put them in the the project documents uh folder . user interface: industrial designer: mm . project manager: and here are the individual actions for the for the other roles . and of course specific instructions will be sent to you again by your uh personal coach . user interface: alright . project manager: luckily as we are . okay , well user interface: project manager: thank you very much , for now , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh have a nice lunch , huh ? user interface: lunch . industrial designer: okay . user interface: industrial designer: food . user interface: should we put this back in our rooms , or uh ? industrial designer: yeah , think so . user interface: yeah .

project manage thought they should reach a market with customers that were younger than forty as they already had forty plus customers . marketing suggested it should be sixteen to forty-five as they like the lcd screen most .

what did the group think about the lcd screen on the new remote control ? </s> project manager: good morning , again . industrial designer: one question . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: send . user interface: choose a number ? industrial designer: submit . marketing: yep yep yep yep . project manager: all set ? industrial designer: mm . yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: good . okay . let 's see what we can find here . okay . a very warm welcome again to everyone . user interface: project manager: um here we are already at our uh functional design meeting . um and this is what we are going to do . the opening , which we are doing now , um and the special note , i 'm project manager but on the meetings i 'm also the secretary , which means i will make uh minutes as i did of the previous meeting . industrial designer: project manager: and uh i also put these as fast as possible in the uh project folder , so you can see them and review what we have discussed . um if i 'm right , there are three presentations , i guess each one of you has prepared one ? good . user interface: yes . project manager: and um we will also take a look at new project requirements , um if you have n't heard about them yet . and then of course we have to take a decision on the remote control functions and we have some more time , forty minutes . but i think we will need it . um well i do n't know who wants to go first with his presentation . industrial designer: i 'll go first . okay . i 'll go first yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: you can go first , okay . user interface: well . marketing: well , shall i go first with the users ? user interface: well marketing: i think well okay no problem . project manager: is there an order ? i have n't user interface: everybody already has his presentation , marketing: ja precies , ja precies , ja precies user interface: so you can adjust it . industrial designer: so . huh ? okay , um project manager: and one question , uh your name denni , is it with a marketing: e_i_e_ . project manager: i_e_ e_i_e_ , okay . thank you . user interface: industrial designer: okay , um i wanted to explain the working design of the remote control . it 's possibly very handy if you want to uh design one of those . um well so it basically works uh as i uh uh r wrote down uh in this uh little uh summary . uh when you press a button , uh that 's when you do pr for example when you uh want to turn up the volume , um a little connection is made uh the the rubber uh button just presses on a project manager: sorry . marketing: user interface: industrial designer: on a little print plate uh which uh makes uh uh a connection that uh gives the chips , uh which is uh mounted beneath those uh that plastic of a rubber button . uh senses that a connection has been made , and know and knows what button you pressed , becau uh for example the the volume up or volume down button . um uh the the chip uh makes a morse code uh like uh signal which uh then is si uh signalled to uh several transistors which makes uh which sends the signal to a little let . you know what a let is ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . and that makes uh the the infra-red lights signal which is sent to the television set . uh which has a sensor in it to uh sense uh the signal of the infra-red . that 's basically uh how it works . um the findings uh uh that i found uh searching up some uh detailed information about the remote controls , are that uh they are very easy to produce , uh it is pis uh it 's possible to uh make them in mass production because it is as eas it is as easy as uh printing a page , uh just uh fibreglass plate um is b uh is uh covered with uh some uh coatings and uh uh and chips . user interface: industrial designer: uh and the technology 's already available , we do n't have to find out how remote controls uh have to work or uh how that how uh to make some chips that are possible to uh to to transmit those uh signals . uh i made a little uh uh animation of about how a tran our uh remote controller works . user interface: marketing: user interface: oh right . marketing: animation . user interface: industrial designer: we tel user interface: there is something turning . industrial designer: there . project manager: yeah , it 's a little bug it 's in the in the smart board . industrial designer: okay . uh well user interface: industrial designer: the sub-component , i suppose that you understand what a sub-component is , is f in this example it 's the button . uh when it is pressed down , um , the switch is ter is uh is switched on , so with uh the wire is sent to the to the chip in uh co-operation with the battery of course , because to make uh a a signal possible you have to have some sort of uh li uh a d ad uh electronic uh user interface: marketing: infrared light . industrial designer: yes , uh , okay . um w after it 's being composed by the chip uh the signal uh is transported uh to the infra-red bulb , and from there it signals a morse code-like signal to the to the b to the bulb in uh in the television set . okay . s uh i wrote down some personal preferences about uh the remote control . of course it is very handy if the remote control is hand held , so you do n't have to uh uh wind it up or something , or just is it 's it 's very light to uh to make uh to use it . uh i personally uh pref prefer that uh it would be p uh come available in the various colours , and uh easy to use buttons . but i suppose that the one of the other team members uh uh thought of that uh too . user interface: yeah , i 've got it there too . industrial designer: and it is possible for several designs and um easy to use b uh sorry , easy to use buttons . perhaps soft touch , uh touch screen uh buttons because uh the rubber buttons are always uh uh they uh slightly uh they can be slightly damaged , marketing: industrial designer: uh so the numbers on the buttons are not possible uh to read anymore . and uh well as i said uh before th uh we can uh make several designs . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay , well , that 's my contribution to this meeting , and uh marketing: to this meeting . project manager: okay , thank you . user interface: industrial designer: two of these this meeting . so . user interface: shall i go uh next ? project manager: yep . user interface: 'kay . project manager: please . user interface: so . marketing: smoking . user interface: well uh , my name 's , and i looked at uh technical functions design of the remote . uh i did this by uh looking at examples of other remote controls , of how they uh they look , and information from the web that i found . um well what i found was that uh th the actual use of the remote control is to send messages to television set , how you uh d what you described uh just early . and this can be all sorts of medsa messages , turn it on , turn it off , uh change the channel , adjust volume , that kind of thing . uh play video , teletext , but also t uh play c_d_ if you use it your c_d_ player the remote control will that one . there are some uh examples of remote controls . you can see they are very different . the one has got all the functions that you could possibly need and an lot of uh buttons etcetera . and the other is uh more user friendly , little with big buttons . and uh not n all the the the the stuff you can do with it , but uh the the essential stuff is there . um i guess you could better y you should look at a a user centred uh approach , because the customers have to use them and and if they do n't think it 's usable they wo n't uh buy it . a lot of buttons they may think from i do n't need s as much as that . uh , well perf personal preferences is is uh a simple remote , with uh the basic functions that you can need that you could use . but uh keep in mind the new functions of tv what we discussed earlier , split screen and uh is that a function that you should have ? because all the tvs will have them . or because of only a few and is n't really necessary . and then uh make it i would make so that you can could uh use it on more than one appliance . if you have one that uh uh does with the vi the the video , it could also work with uh with the stereo , because play is play and stop stop and that sort of thing . the shu c you could reuse the buttons so that you do n't have to have a lot of buttons for uh anything . and it should be a user friendly , clear buttons , and not too much . and that is my presentation . project manager: okay , thank you . industrial designer: okay . marketing: 'kay . check . industrial designer: user interface: you must still have it open . marketing: kijke 'kay , so . we 're going to j discuss the functional requirements of the remote , that m that means that functions user n want to have on the remote control , or just yeah , and the users , actually . industrial designer: marketing: the methods i i prefer is we 're going to look which section of the users we are going to focus a l on more . are the younger people going to buy the remote control or the elderly people ? and then tho that section we 're going to focus and adjust the remote more to that section than the whole user section . okay . some data . younger people , from sixteen to thir forty five um years are more interested in fj features like lcd screens , speech recognition e etcetera . and we possess about two third of the market from in that range of age . the elderly people , from forty five years to sixty five years are not that much interested in features , and we possess less than two third , that 's two fifth , of the market share in that area . goed so . project manager: industrial designer: hmm . marketing: 'kay . findings . fifty percent of the users lose their remote often . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: so we do n't have to make it very small , like uh like a mobile phone or something , but some somewhat bi bigger than small , so you do n't lose it that much anymore . seventy five percent of the users also find it ugly , industrial designer: mm . marketing: and fif seventy five of the users zap a lot , so the buttons sh should be that small , or should n't be that complex because we have to search for the buttons , which one are you going to use . next . important issues about the remote . i think it would be better with a personal reference , but okay . remote control has to have to have a low power usage , because s w seventy five percent of the users only zap one time an hour , so the power usage is also one one time an hour , or so , with a high power usage we would use a lot of but batteries . the volume button and the channel buttons are the two most important buttons on the remote control , so those they those have to h be find very easily . and have to be somewhat like bigger etcetera . it has also be have to find easily when the label is gone . my colleague also announced it that labels should be scratched off industrial designer: mm . user interface: hmm . marketing: or would be s uh senden user interface: marketing: okay . so uh if that 's k uh if that 's the problem , you also have to find it easily on the remote . buttons . like what all colleagues said , have to have to be minimalized . or should be covered , or in lcd screen . lcd screen is easy because we have the lcd screen , we have the various options . put one option and then you have the all the buttons of that options , so the other options would be gone . and you do n't see the buttons . so lcd screens should be easy , but an lcd screen , the problem with the l_ sc lcd screen is that elderly people fr from forty five to for sixty five years do n't use the lcd screen a lot . so we have to that keep that in mind that if you 're going to implement lcd screen , you do n't have to make it that hard to learn or to use . industrial designer: uh lcd screen as in uh touch screen ? marketing: yeah , touch screen , yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: the last but not least , younger people are more critical about the features . because they use the remote control often more often , and are more technical than the ol older people . and the older people spend more money , and easily on a remote control . user interface: mm . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: so we have to keep in mind to to focus not a lot not that much on the younger pep younger people , but also somewhat on the elderly people . and on my personal preferences , i do n't have any mo more time to come with that , user interface: marketing: but like i said , lcd screen is easily to use industrial designer: marketing: because you have you can implement a lot of buttons in one remote with not that much buttons . and it should be easy to use . especially the volume buttons , the channel buttes buttons and the number buttons to zap through the channels . and that is it . project manager: okay , industrial designer: okay . project manager: thank you . user interface: oh right . project manager: um , well thank you all , huh . i dunno uh did everyone receive an email with uh the new project requirements ? user interface: no . res i did not . project manager: no ? well , user interface: perhaps the rest ? industrial designer: no . project manager: then i think it 's a good thing that i made a separate slide of them marketing: ja , project manager: so you can all read them . oh , well not in this presentation . hmm user interface: project manager: should be in there . well , i can tell you them uh from my laptop . um teletext does has become outdated since the popularity of the internet . user interface: oh . mm . project manager: so that 's uh the first thing we i think we should pay less attention to uh teletext . uh the remote control should only be used for the television , otherwise the project becomes more complex , which endangers the time to market , and of course would make it more costly , i think . um our current customers are within the age group of forty plus , and new product should reach a new market with customers that are younger than forty , and you talked about that before . and uh a last point , but also very important , our corporate image should stay recognisable in our products , which means that our uh corporate colour and slogan must be implemented in the new design . so we have to keep that in mind . um well uh according to our agenda it 's then time to take a decision on the remote control functions . so , who has any idea about what should be on it , and what should n't ? user interface: well you said it should only uh work with one appliance ? marketing: be television . user interface: or with one uh d che only the tv ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . only be used for television . user interface: and the video also , or not uh ? project manager: well it says only for television here , huh . marketing: only the television . user interface: oh . alright . okay . project manager: makes it a lot easier , huh ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm . marketing: so yeah , then you can yeah . requirements , no ? functions . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then it should have uh on , off , industrial designer: yeah for user interface: and uh industrial designer: standby options , marketing: yeah , the basics then by a volume , channel , one till two zero numbers on it , industrial designer: yeah ? uh yeah . user interface: yeah . and per perhaps uh marketing: oh teletext does n't have to be ? user interface: no . marketing: um other functions . user interface: well uh uh yes yes s sh a button where you can uh change from one number to two numbers . marketing: yeah i had industrial designer: two s two two digits , marketing: yeah , yeah . user interface: can you industrial designer: oh okay . user interface: do n't know if that 's got a name , industrial designer: yeah i understand what you mean . yeah . user interface: but marketing: i think it 's i think it 's easy to implement a button with a s s what which especially do that , because some tvs , if you press the t one and then the two , it be between five secs it make twelve , industrial designer: it makes it twelve , yeah . user interface: yeah . s industrial designer: indeed . okay . marketing: and that 's that 's not relaxed industrial designer: well , not really marketing: to user . industrial designer: and and there are some models that do n't uh accommodate that function . so marketing: yeah . industrial designer: d uh wh the philip 's television makes it possible in that indeed to uh press one and then two to make uh the uh tj to reach channel twelve . marketing: so that it easy and fast . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but uh all the television makes uh use of those button where you first press that button and then press two digits to uh to get marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah , so you should have that one on . industrial designer: uh yeah , think so . marketing: our main targets ' age are ? were ? forty five plus , or ? user interface: mute misschien also . project manager: uh well industrial designer: mm . project manager: new product should reach a market with customers that are younger than forty , and now we have current customers uh of forty plus . marketing: forties , okay because because younger people as uh younger people have now , sixteen till to twenty five age , are f eighty one percent interested in lcd screen . from twenty six to thirty five have sixty six percent , and thirty six to forty five , fifty five percent , so i think to um because on most recog remote controls um the print plate will be broken how much , two years . you have to press h very hard to go to the next channel . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: with the lcd screen it 's easier because you only have to wipe the screen to uh for fingerprint , industrial designer: yeah , we we could yeah . but i think that uh that collides with our mission to make it very cheap . marketing: and then you can use it again . industrial designer: because lcd screens are very expensive . marketing: yeah , okay . user interface: an industrial designer: a touch screen uh probably uh even more . marketing: yeah but a you do n't know industrial designer: so , marketing: true . industrial designer: true , true . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: but uh well um is it possible to make an lcd screen uh , how was the information ? marketing: yeah , it only says that this perce percentage like lcd screen . because , yeah and it says that younger age between sixteen and forty five highly interesting features more critical . industrial designer: so perhaps we should we should focus on that lcd screen . marketing: and if the only f yeah , because our target is sixteen to forty five . user interface: but , do you industrial designer: yeah but uh will we not uh exceed our uh our uh production uh marketing: yeah you do n't know how much it costs . yeah , you do n't know how much it costs , the lcd screen . industrial designer: is it possible to find out , anyway ? marketing: no , i do n't have any costs here , industrial designer: you know ? marketing: i only have percentages . user interface: but if you would do an lcd screen do we have don do n't you have any buttons ? or because if it only directs at the tv , then you only have uh i do n't know what you want to do with the lcd screen . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: no , an lcd screen 's just like uh like a drawn here . um just uh displays several buttons , user interface: yeah ? industrial designer: for example um if you wanted the minimal uh use b uh buttons , such as channel and volume , you just h uh displays four buttons on the screen user interface: oh right , so you can industrial designer: and it 's possible to p uh press them down , just like a touch screen . user interface: oh , yeah alright . so you can adjust which buttons you want on that s screen . industrial designer: yeah , we can make it possible to do that , yeah . marketing: yeah , if you want to adjust , like for example , adjust the audio settings , you press audio on the touchscreen industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: and you get the buttons for audio settings , user interface: yeah alright , oh right . marketing: so the other buttons are gone . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: so we 're going for an lcd screen ? user interface: yeah . would be yeah . marketing: i think it 's the most easier thing , industrial designer: that 's my uh project manager: and hoping that when we produce a lot it wo n't be too expensive . marketing: yeah . user interface: well we had twelve fifty , i guess , for uh production ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: no . yeah . industrial designer: twelve fifty . marketing: industrial designer: um . user interface: any guesses ? industrial designer: marketing: industrial designer: well i suppose wi if the mar if our um if the i if the young people are interested in lcd screens , we should make 'em . marketing: highly . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and if that is our d uh market share to uh and our goal to uh deliver those uh remote controls user interface: but but he also said that we should not only focus on the younger people , but also on the older , and will they use it if it only has an lcd screen ? marketing: yeah , but um , s forty six to forty five , thirty three percent , and sixty fifty six to sixty five twelve percent . user interface: oh , so still a little bit people marketing: but our our our what 's it , project requirements are the new products should be reached for new markets , to customers that are younger than forty . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah that 's right . but you do n't want to alienate the other uh marketing: no , that not now , but , so user interface: but if they also buy it then it 's alright . i guess . marketing: yeah , but market share fro for for forty years and younger is higher than that of sixty five and younger . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . alright . project manager: okay , so lcd it is ? user interface: an yes . project manager: okay . industrial designer: mm . it 's treasure . project manager: and what else ? industrial designer: i hope we uh h and let 's hope to reach those uh those sales . marketing: yeah , i i if it yeah , if it costs gets too much , too expensive , then yeah , we should be sticking to rubber buttons . project manager: user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , can you um uh s i think that that they will send you some information about uh the cost of lcd uh screens . user interface: yeah . marketing: n nothing , no costs at all . user interface: but perhaps later , industrial designer: uh so if you uh user interface: so uh industrial designer: yeah , so if you uh you receive an email about that , uh can you post it in the or should n't we post that in uh our projects mail uh folder . marketing: yeah , in user interface: yeah . marketing: i think that should yeah i think we all get the costs of everything . user interface: i do n't industrial designer: because you are the the marketing uh expert . marketing: yeah , okay , i 'll i 'll post it . industrial designer: i uh user interface: well perhaps we should have a backup plan that we would use buttons if it 's uh too expensive . industrial designer: yeah sure , sure . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , okay . but for now it 's lcd . okay . marketing: okay , lcd , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: then you have the seventy five percent of users find it r ugly . industrial designer: user interface: the lcd ? oh that 's a bit of a problem . marketing: yeah , and eighty percent of the users would spend more money with a when a remote would look fancy . user interface: oh , that 's a bit of a problem . industrial designer: mm . marketing: tha i l i it 'll look fancy with lcd screen . yeah . industrial designer: it 's looks fancy one yeah , of lcd screen . user interface: yeah , but they do n't they do n't like it . project manager: yeah . user interface: they think it 's ugly . when it has an lcd screen . marketing: yeah , just a the plain remotes , not not specific lcd remotes . user interface: oh , alright , i thought that you said that . project manager: yeah , and maybe you can make something fancy out of an lcd remote , marketing: so project manager: because it 's new , as far as i know . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: industrial designer: mm yeah . marketing: yeah , of course . industrial designer: and then not yeah . marketing: and then you have the other thing , that seventy five percent zap a lot , but that 's not a f question with the lcd screen . industrial designer: um . yeah . marketing: only thing you have to do is wipe the screen off once each time , to get all the fingerprints off it . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm . okay ? project manager: okay , what else does our remote need ? user interface: a mute button . marketing: um project manager: mute button . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i think . and marketing: the most important things on a f on an on an uh remote control are channel selection , volume con selection , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and power s power usage . user interface: yeah . marketing: and a teletext , but that is not of the question . user interface: but but should n't you put a button of for teletext on the for the people who want to use it ? marketing: other things are sorry ? user interface: remembering we have got a big remote that you have to fill . marketing: yeah , it could be . yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . yeah , and we could make an a a separate menu on the lcd uh screen for teletext . marketing: yeah , teletext . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and there 's also a marketing: and other other less important things are screen settings , audio settings , and channel settings , user interface: yeah , they are less important , but i think they should be there , marketing: less important . user interface: or not ? marketing: yeah , should be there , industrial designer: a sh marketing: but not press industrial designer: but in a sub sub-menu or something like that . marketing: yeah , sub-menu , yeah . industrial designer: uh i think it 's also important to uh make it possible to um how do you call it in english , uh , to not use batteries , and use ac uh bat uh batteries to uh to be project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: like with a with a mouse , you have not , yeah . industrial designer: yeah yeah sure . indeed . so uh you can mount uh the the the uh marketing: yeah , in a breath it 's industrial designer: uh the remote control to um project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: charted . user interface: we should think of the twelve fifty we have industrial designer: to refill the user interface: but marketing: yeah , user interface: i do n't know how much that 's going to uh marketing: but we do n't we do n't have any costs now , industrial designer: yeah . okay , marketing: so yeah . industrial designer: because i uh when you get an lcd screen , you run it on batteries , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: the batteries will be uh empty very soon , very fast . marketing: yeah e e power supply is one of the most important things . user interface: you should perhaps you should be able to to switch the control off . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: if you have an lcd screen that 's burns all the time i dunno . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . yeah . user interface: you should n't on and off because that 's ver extra , that you have t first you have to turn the remote on , and then you can uh project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: i do n't know . industrial designer: uh marketing: yeah , i think it 's it 's not that easy because i do n't think people will like it who who uh that you have to turn it on first and then use it , user interface: nee that 's that 's uh yeah . marketing: so i think it 's better when th the tv shuts down , the remote shuts down . user interface: but then you ca n't industrial designer: and go to standby mode when you do n't use it , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so that marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah yeah au automac matically , that it yeah . industrial designer: yeah , automatically . after two minutes or three minutes , something like that . marketing: yeah . after two minutes , yeah two three minutes , yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . and maybe a low battery indicator ? on the screen . industrial designer: yeah . sure . project manager: marketing: yeah . user interface: marketing: and then b that uh industrial designer: marketing: before an hour when its get again gets empty . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: then you have plenty of time to recharge it , industrial designer: mm . marketing: of put it in a recharger . charger . project manager: so we are going for the for the recharger . user interface: project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , if it 's . uh . user interface: if it 's sensible . marketing: yeah , because when you 're watching tv , you 're zapping and you have to put it in a recharger , user interface: yeah . yeah , b when the batteries are low industrial designer: no , marketing: and i do n't think it industrial designer: when you when you 're done with s uh w uh watching your television , you have to put it marketing: yeah , okay , but then we have to be sure that the the the the batteries go hours , six hours , five , six hours , then . user interface: but you 'll also forget to put it in , industrial designer: yeah sure , of course . user interface: because you throw it on the couch industrial designer: yeah , marketing: yeah , industrial designer: but marketing: then you have a problem . user interface: and you do n't remember . industrial designer: but you also forget to buy batteries , user interface: yeah . that 's right . industrial designer: and then you can you ca n't use it , user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so i marketing: or we have to be sure that the batteries last couple of days when they 're recharged . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: well i think the batteries should should w should work a lot longer than a couple of days , marketing: so . user interface: or not ? marketing: yeah because you have b user interface: 'cause marketing: but you have lcd screen . user interface: yeah , that 's right , but marketing: high power usage . industrial designer: high power user cell , i uh it should be uh a standard move to to put your remote control in the charger when you 're done watching television , marketing: yes . industrial designer: that 's also a a a great advantage because you ca n't lose it anymore . because you are obliged to uh put it in the charger and not to uh leave it in a couch uh between some cushions . marketing: true . yeah . yeah . true . user interface: yeah . right . industrial designer: okay . marketing: yeah , you made a point there . user interface: but then you also have to s have somewhere where you can put a remo recharger near your couch project manager: yeah , also . user interface: because otherwise you have to walk a long way when you twoft want to turn on the tv . marketing: yeah , otherwise all your yeah . just a small device . user interface: yeah . i think everything has it for and i guess . industrial designer: yeah it has n't it does n't have to be big . marketing: plug it in , that 's it . yeah , like a like telephone charger or something . industrial designer: yeah just just a cable , or a even a a a a a charger where you can mount it on . something like that , marketing: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: just u user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . user interface: alright . project manager: okay , well i 've marketing: it has to be easy to use also , or things . uh market share , speaker re speech recognition . project manager: yeah , you have some more user interface: project manager: points . industrial designer: functional designs uh for the elderly uh you could make it possible to enlarge the screen , marketing: i think . industrial designer: so make it possible to not uh display uh a button at ten points marketing: also . industrial designer: uh , or marketing: well i think that this should be standard . large button large buttons . industrial designer: yeah but it is uh one of the functions you have to uh specify . marketing: yeah ? okay . industrial designer: because we can look at uh uh perhaps uh forty buttons at a screen , but the elderly only look at two buttons . project manager: marketing: industrial designer: okay . marketing: . project manager: and you said something about speech recognition ? marketing: yeah , industrial designer: speech recognition ? marketing: it says also industrial designer: hello . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , industrial designer: twelve euro user interface: twelve fifty , twelve fifty . industrial designer: twelve euro fifty . marketing: twelve . that 's an also ninety one percent sixteen to twenty five , twenty six to thirty five years , seventy six percent , and thirty six to forty five , thirty five percent . user interface: so it 's pretty big . industrial designer: well , spread it by a big market . marketing: but then i i i project manager: even bigger than for lcd . user interface: yeah . w i know let 's do a speech . industrial designer: well marketing: yeah . industrial designer: let 's leave out all the remote controls and just put a microphone on top of the television to user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah . ninety . twenty five . user interface: you can clap or something . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: channel . industrial designer: turn volume up . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: hey , that that 's an idea . marketing: user interface: now you should n't say the wrong thing , i dunno . industrial designer: okay , well marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that should it has to be remote control , not marketing: yeah , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: twelve . user interface: but they want to talk into the remo remote control , or something , industrial designer: sure why not why not marketing: yeah . user interface: or ? marketing: is this only would you would you pay more for speech recognition in a remote control . it 's the only thing it says . industrial designer: yeah , mm . user interface: oh , but do we want to implement that , or ? marketing: i think an lcd screen should be suf sufficient . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: but when you look at the percentages marketing: yeah , it says a lot , but project manager: speech recognition scores even higher , huh ? industrial designer: perhaps the options should be uh why not ? user interface: project manager: yeah , well , industrial designer: why not ? project manager: maybe because of the cost , but uh nobody knows uh how much uh it will cost uh . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: let 's hope uh to have some uh d user interface: i know marketing: no i think i think it 's better to have l_ lcd screen , because in the area of tw thirty six to forty five , we have about thirty percent of the market share in in our hands , and fifty five of those people want lcd screen and thirty five want speech recognition . so i think it 's better to keep it with lcd screen . project manager: but would it be useful to imple implement both ? user interface: mm . project manager: on one remote ? marketing: yeah , if the costs al allow it . project manager: or user interface: well project manager: yeah , i dunno . user interface: i do n't know if that can be done with the cost of twelve fifty . marketing: nee . user interface: with that uh marketing: if it should be done , if it could be done , i wo n't matter . yeah . user interface: yeah , industrial designer: we should do it . yeah . sure . user interface: but how would you like to implement that , that you say volume up , and then it goes up , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: or ? marketing: yeah . user interface: uh . industrial designer: certain systems already exist , i think . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: then you also have to have different languages if we go international . then uh it 's y it 's yours to do a french and dutch and english marketing: true . industrial designer: true , yeah . marketing: yeah . true . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but that should also be with f should be also with lcd screen . industrial designer: this should be uh accommodated with some software , uh , uh . yeah . marketing: because then i think in chinese is different written , volume is different written than um swahili or something . user interface: yeah , that 's right . yeah . industrial designer: right . swahili . swahili . user interface: yeah you can use icons for the industrial designer: yeah . user interface: a speaker and uh marketing: ja , well possible . industrial designer: indeed . user interface: but if that 's better than language for the for the remote . marketing: yeah , yeah yeah yeah industrial designer: yeah . so we want to uh yeah it 's international uh okay . user interface: then it 's yeah . industrial designer: okay . marketing: 'kay , what else ? project manager: so , no speech recognition ? or user interface: well , if it could be done , we marketing: yeah , industrial designer: y it should be done . if it could be done , should be done . marketing: we have to keep yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , and then we have different languages . user interface: yeah , that should be uh anything matters . industrial designer: that 's not so difficult at all , project manager: okay , just make a separate remote for each uh industrial designer: because i already use on several voice operated systems , and they are all possible to uh not all , but user interface: well , you sh you should to adjust the thing . marketing: i think it 's difficult . every language of dialects user interface: yeah . marketing: i think it 's very differen difficult . user interface: and you have to speak the so that it can understand . marketing: yeah . i think it ca n't be implemented , but maybe user interface: you could use that n as an option , if you have money left , or something . marketing: yeah , 's an option , yes . industrial designer: yeah , sure , indeed . marketing: fifty euro cents . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: user interface: let 's do speech . industrial designer: for speech recognition . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay , so we only do this when we have enough money left . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . well i 've written down an an on or off button , volume selection , channel selection , uh the digits from one to zero , huh . um or from zero to nine . uh a digits button to switch uh between one and two digits , mute button , a separate menu for teletext , a battery indicator . um we 're going to use a docking station and uh probably lcd and if there 's enough money , speech recognition . and uh the possibility to uh enlarge buttons or to have large buttons user interface: mm . yeah . marketing: mm , yes . project manager: in general . user interface: i with uh teletext if it was n't ver very important , it was but marketing: no , but user interface: you also now have colours . i do n't know if we should implement that . yeah , marketing: curved ? user interface: when you press the red button , you go to page one hundred two , and when you press the industrial designer: uh yeah . user interface: i do n't know if we should implement that , marketing: um . user interface: because it says that teletext not really important , industrial designer: s shortcuts . uh . user interface: but yeah , the shortcut , and you ca n't go to sport . marketing: i think we should we could that we could also implement a audio settings , screen settings and channel settings , but as sub-menus . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm . marketing: d mainly if you turn the uh remote control on , you have to u you have to see from one till zero , channel and volume . and if you want to use teletext screen or audio , then you can press it . industrial designer: sh yeah , just just sub-menu . yeah . marketing: it should be available but not user interface: 'cause it should be there . industrial designer: not directly uh available . marketing: not yeah . yeah . industrial designer: okay . project manager: okay , so not too much teletext support , but in a separate menu , and industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah . user interface: so actually it is there but it 's just not r ready there . marketing: yeah , but s industrial designer: directly available . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so does it confuse uh the user ? user interface: you 'll have to search for it . marketing: they 'd have to be easy to use . industrial designer: uh . i 'll search um . user interface: industrial designer: if you want to use teletext , you can push the teletext button and then the options uh become available . user interface: yeah . yeah , that 's a marketing: the sign of it . project manager: okay , but no more buttons or functions , or ? user interface: i guess not . industrial designer: no . marketing: uh , no . what else can you do with a television ? user interface: we 've got anon project manager: are n't we forgetting something very important ? user interface: have got got two examples here , but i do n't think there 's anything we 're missing . marketing: uh play , pause , does n't n need to be there . user interface: well , we do n't have the video orders marketing: yes , so this is your presentation . we could check the other remote controls with technical functions . user interface: yeah , you could look here all the the marketing: which ones were yours ? user interface: uh th th th th i do n't know , technical functions . marketing: techni user interface: they 're a bit small , you can we should stretch them , because project manager: ping . marketing: ja ja ja ja ja . technical functions . yeah okay . user interface: i guess we 've got them all . marketing: uh i think i go to have volume , mute but i yeah . very slow . yeah , the zoom buttons . user interface: and for a tv ? can you zoom in a tv ? marketing: yeah , b wide screen , high screen , different things you have , user interface: or that you can put 'em on uh on on wide and marketing: yeah different uh user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: but that should also be a sub then , a sub uh menu thing . industrial designer: menu . marketing: yeah it should be available , but then in separate screen settings or something . user interface: yeah , so we should also implement se screen settings . industrial designer: mm . marketing: yeah , screen settings , audio settings , teletext settings you have . user interface: oh right . yeah . marketing: channel settings . user interface: yeah , so you can program the marketing: so those four , and of course the main . user interface: yeah , so the first you see the main , and the other ones you can uh go to uh marketing: yeah . yeah . like tap screens or something user interface: yeah . marketing: or , i dunno . user interface: i hope we can do this . marketing: something industrial designer: there are a lot of options depending uh on what kind of television you got . marketing: yeah , if uh industrial designer: 'cause if you do n't got a wide screen television you do n't need the uh the screen settings marketing: no , you do n't yu a no you then you do n't no ni do n't industrial designer: uh for uh marketing: then you do n't use it . industrial designer: yeah and if the television does not support such uh operations marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we do n't have to use that top . yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so you leave it alone . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . or it could be possible to have a a standard version of the remote , an expanded version . user interface: yeah . and do we want them in different colours , or marketing: yeah . user interface: and and the buttons , should they have colours ? marketing: colours . yeah . industrial designer: colours i think the main colour of the remote control is uh the colour of the lcd screen . user interface: oh but we do n't have any buttons . yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i because we do n't want a lot a devi yeah a device self s g marketing: yeah , then defines itself . because uh how many percent ? eighty percent ? user interface: they think it 's ugly , right ? marketing: would spend more money if it looks fancy . industrial designer: okay , so use uh very uh lot of peo user interface: perhaps you can uh make adjustable fronts , like with the telephones . industrial designer: adjust with phones , yes user interface: you can uh but i do n't think that uh industrial designer: okay . twelve euro fifty . well , make it available in different colours , you mean ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: sure . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: red , white , blue , black . user interface: project manager: and a see-through uh marketing: rasta colours . industrial designer: grey . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah sea view , yes , simpson 's versions and marketing: yeah , see through version . yeah . if you press a button , it turns green . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , well industrial designer: leave . project manager: that 's the user interface: a disco version . project manager: signal for las final five minutes . user interface: five minutes ? project manager: um so i have uh the things i just read . um then we have uh separate menus for teletext , screen settings , audio settings , and what else ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: channel settings ? user interface: oh yeah , right . project manager: channel settings . user interface: so you can program the tv . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: mm . user interface: perhaps you should you 'd throw them on on in one pile . so , options , and then you sub them . marketing: yeah . could be possible . user interface: otherwise you have all those teletext , perhaps teletext not , industrial designer: mm . user interface: but marketing: or like uh you have a menu button , you press project manager: no , we said teletext also a separate menu . user interface: yeah , but i marketing: yeah , or otherwise you have a menu button , press menu then you have uh main uh menu search uh all the all the settings . user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay , but we can work that out later , i guess . user interface: but marketing: yeah , no problem . yep . project manager: so we 're having a a general menu with the most used functions , uh teletext , screen settings , audio settings , channel settings , and maybe there are options for the remote itself ? like uh large icons or small icons user interface: i do n't know . project manager: and i do n't know what else , marketing: um , project manager: but industrial designer: no . marketing: i think b because we do n't have a lot of buttons on the one screen , user interface: or do we have any buttons ? on the remote . marketing: i think the buttons yeah , but but or like you have user interface: which one ? marketing: you only have channel button or volume button . those buttons you can you can project manager: yeah , but on the lcd , user interface: but that 's also in the lcd , project manager: huh ? user interface: right ? marketing: yeah . project manager: right , yeah , okay . user interface: so we do n't have any normal buttons marketing: yeah , th user interface: that uh marketing: no , no normal buttons , yeah . user interface: no , alright . marketing: maybe only the on and o on and off button . user interface: yet on and off is p is perhaps you kno project manager: but we do n't need a special industrial designer: uh not button marketing: but i do n't think project manager: we do n't need a special options menu for the remote itself . user interface: no , no . marketing: mm , no . project manager: okay . user interface: oh well , you should be able to set which tv you have . if you have if you have uh industrial designer: yeah sure , of course you need uh a settings button , uh or a settings option for the remote control . user interface: yeah . but is n't idea to use uh uh what you said , uh normal on and off button for the tv , that you do n't have to use a marketing: no no no , because we we discussed that you could charge it , otherwise is it it jumps to stand-by mode automatically . user interface: yeah but but not for the remote but for the tv , that you use marketing: yeah , but a tv of course , th that 's the i think that 's a best thing is that to implement that one in the menu with the volume and channel . user interface: but a not as normal button , in the lcd , marketing: no . project manager: well maybe there should be a separate button apart from the lcd , user interface: yeah . project manager: because you ca n't turn it on when the lcd is off . so how do you turn the thing on ? there has to be a on button on the remote , user interface: no you just tap i think . project manager: huh ? industrial designer: just tap it . marketing: yeah , you tap . project manager: tap the thing . okay . marketing: touch screen , yeah then it 's turn turn off , turn on . project manager: and then the television is on also , or just the remote ? marketing: no , just the remote . user interface: but marketing: a television do n't have to be on , that one you can press on , industrial designer: yeah , it should be in standby mode , but marketing: yeah stand-by , then press on remote , press on and then tv should be available . or not . user interface: yeah a yeah . i do n't know whether it 's handy to have a n a normal on button , a r just uh rubber uh for for tv , marketing: separate . user interface: so you can turn it on and then you can choose the channel . otherwise you i do n't know whether or not that 's industrial designer: a a a normal button on the remote control , user interface: yeah , yeah . to turn it on . industrial designer: or norm ? user interface: of or you should put it in the lcd screen . industrial designer: yeah , because uh when you touch the lcd screen when it is in standby mode , it should pop on . user interface: yeah , i have , project manager: okay , well user interface: yeah . industrial designer: wh uh why would it be a a need to have a normal button ? user interface: well i i guess if you use the lcd screen , you first have to search where is the on button , then you uh you you then turn it , and then the tv goes on . but if you have a normal on button on the on the remote , then you do the on , and then you search the channel which you want . marketing: yeah , but i think the re the remote control , if you press tap the screen , it always should jump to the screen which has the volume button , channel button , and of course of also the on and off button . industrial designer: mm . user interface: oh right . industrial designer: i think it looks a lot more fancy if you use uh if you do n't have any buttons on the s on on remote control . user interface: yeah , i think so too . otherwise y wet e k yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so actually we 're going to create a a button-less uh remote . no buttons at all . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , well that 's might be a unique selling point , huh for a remote . user interface: if we can afford it . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , well i guess we have to industrial designer: oh , okay marketing: yeah , if we can afford it . yeah . project manager: postpone further discussion to uh our next meeting , because we 're running out of time . um for now , we 're having a lunch break , industrial designer: oh . project manager: and then there will be uh half an hour for the uh next share of individual work . i will uh write uh minutes , if i can create them out of this . and uh put them in the the project documents uh folder . user interface: industrial designer: mm . project manager: and here are the individual actions for the for the other roles . and of course specific instructions will be sent to you again by your uh personal coach . user interface: alright . project manager: luckily as we are . okay , well user interface: project manager: thank you very much , for now , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and uh have a nice lunch , huh ? user interface: lunch . industrial designer: okay . user interface: industrial designer: food . user interface: should we put this back in our rooms , or uh ? industrial designer: yeah , think so . user interface: yeah .

industrial designer thought if young people interested in lcd team should make them . user interface thought old people 's need should be taken into consideration . like if old people could use an lcd screen . marketing insisted market share for younger people is higher than older people so they should use lcd screens . meanwhile , marketing said if the lcd screen cost too much then they should change to rubber buttons . project manager agreed and hoped lcd would not be too expensive as they produced a lot .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: is that alright now ? okay . sorry ? okay , everybody all set to start the meeting ? okay , we 've got half an hour for this one um to uh discuss the um functional design . marketing: could you plug me in ? user interface: marketing: okay . thanks . project manager: all ready to go ? okay . marketing: okay . project manager: um so hopefully you 've all been working away , and i 've put the minutes of the last meeting in the project folder . um so i guess just to to recap on uh what we did last time . um kind of uh got to know each other a little bit and uh got familiar with all the equipment and started to discuss um a bit about the project , you know , cost-wise how much how much money we had to s um just want to tell you that you have three new requirements , which is the the first one is that um uh the company 's decided that teletext is outdated uh because of how popular the internet is . nobody uses teletext very much anymore , so we do n't really need to consider that in the functionality of the of the remote control . marketing: 'kay . project manager: um they 've also suggested that we um we only use the remote control to control the television , not the v_c_r_ , d_v_d_ or anything else . i think the worry is that if the project becomes too complex then it 'll affect um how long it takes us to get it into into production , the time to market . so um , we 're just gon na keep it simple and it 'll just control the tv . marketing: okay . project manager: and the other thing was that the company want the corporate colour and slogan to be implemented in the new design . um i 'm not entirely sure what the corporate colour is . it might be yellow , because there seems to be a lot of yellow everywhere . marketing: and the slogan , like the actual written slogan , or just to embody the idea of the slogan ? project manager: well that 's the thing , i 'm i 'm not sure um uh th because on the the company website , uh what does it say uh something marketing: 'bout putting the fashion in electronics . industrial designer: mm yeah . project manager: yeah , i mean do they is that something they want actually written on it , 'cause it 's quite long . um or yeah , just the idea , but i 'm not sure . so that 's something we can discuss as well . so those are the three things , just not to worry about teletext , uh only control the tv , and um and uh incorporate the uh colour and slogan of the company . um so is everybody okay with any of that , or do you want me to recap at all ? industrial designer: nope , we 're all set . project manager: right um , time for presentations then . who would like to go first ? user interface: i 'll go first . project manager: okay , cool . marketing: sure . user interface: alright um , can i st steal this from the back of your laptop ? uh project manager: oh yeah , of course , yeah . g go on ahead . marketing: user interface: so this is the technical functions design . um right to do the um the design i have i 've had a look online , i 've had a look at the homepage , which has given us um some insp inspiration from previous products . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um i 've had a look at the previous products to see what they offer and um i would like to ask you guys for um your ideas about the design at the end of the meeting . um unfortunately we 're not allowed to talk outside the meeting room , so project manager: okay . marketing: right . user interface: um , having a look at the existing products , i found out that um it tends to come in sort of two extremes , there 's either um a very complicated one that 's got lots of buttons , lots of colours , very confusing , you do n't know what you 're doing . um in that case the the labelling tends to be very bad . um there 's an example i 'll show you at the end , um sh show you now . uh project manager: alright . user interface: here um the button there and there . this one 's prog . sorry . that one 's perg and that one 's prog , and it does n't really tell you what it does . um , not sure if you had a a look at the other um control in that example . um it 's a very simple one . it 's got only the basic functions mm but um it 's the same size as the the hard to use one . project manager: oop . user interface: uh it looked a bit clunky . they 're very big and not very much use for buttons . um , and it 's just very hard to access the advanced functions . there 's there 's nothing for instance for a slow motion button . um , my own preferences , i prefer the the clunky one . um it 's very easy to use . um but unfortunately it does lack the advanced functions which i i quite like having on the controls . um so i believe the the advanced functions should maybe be hidden in a drawer , or something like tha from the bottom of it . so , now i 'd like to ask for your preferences . um not sure of how long we 've got , uh project manager: um . well we can chat away for uh for five minutes or so i think at at most . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: just a couple of minutes anyway . marketing: m yeah , like a lot of a lot of what i 've um read and prepared for this meeting fits in really closely with what with what craig 's just gone over . so in part i could i could give you some of my personal preferences but i could also th add some to this which is just about sort of um sort of market research . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: but anyway , project manager: shall we sh well we 'll stick to kind of your area for now . marketing: um we might come to that later . industrial designer: which which is the clunky one , the one on left or on the right ? . . user interface: um , the clunky one is the one on the right . industrial designer: okay . project manager: yeah . marketing: um clunky in what sense , like um h heavier ? larger ? user interface: um i think it 's supposed to be the same size , but um it 's got much fewer buttons . it 's , you know , it 's very spread out marketing: i see , so it 's more just basic . project manager: looks kind of yeah . user interface: and kind of you know marketing: right , okay . user interface: , i get the idea it 'd be sort of about this size . got very few buttons on it and marketing: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . sure . project manager: well i think it 's a valid point . i mean like the one on the left looks quite um quite complicated , and that p_r_t_ p p_r_o_t_ thing is incredibly confusing . um so i see i see why yo you know you might prefer the simpler design , but yeah you do n't want to lose out on , you know , what it does , so maybe you know marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: you know you get a lot of remote controls where you kind of flip the thing open , industrial designer: project manager: i think that 's a good idea . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think it 's a good idea . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: um , do we have any functions that um we 'd want on it ? marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i mean so far i 've got um on and off , um switch the channel up and down , and put the volume up and down . project manager: mm-hmm . uh-huh . user interface: um they 're just the the very basics you could use for a tv . project manager: uh-huh , and then actual numbers for channels as well , yeah . user interface: okay . um , you say that 's a h a required one or a requested one ? would you like marketing: which was that ? user interface: um the channels like the the numbers on thing , um marketing: up the numbers , or the up down ? project manager: god , i wou i would say that 's required , marketing: project manager: i mean there 's no way anybody 's gon na buy a remote control these days when if you ca n't actually individually select channels , marketing: yeah . project manager: i mean would anybody disagree with that ? marketing: yeah . project manager: um , what else , uh so do n't need to worry about teletext , marketing: project manager: do n't need to worry about v_c_r_ , uh any kind of like display controls at all do you think we need to worry about , marketing: we do n't ? no ? project manager: you know like brightness and contrast ? marketing: yeah . well i think i think es essentially what we 're doing right now is we 're categorising . we 're saying well we want this to be a product that offers all the sort of more tricky features but we want them to be in another area ? project manager: mm . marketing: is that right ? project manager: yeah . marketing: is that what we 're we 're doing ? user interface: um , yeah . marketing: we 're kind of like sorting them an or are we actually eliminating things we just do n't want the product to have ? user interface: um project manager: i think are you are you maybe kind of thinking what we absolutely have to have and what would be nice ? user interface: uh , to start with um sort of a bit both , um we need to find out exactly what we have to have project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um and after that we can add things if they 're possible . project manager: okay , right . well , do you wan na maybe just , at this point decide on what we absolutely must have as a p as a function of this . marketing: yeah . project manager: um , so so far , just to recap you 've got volume and channel control and marketing: yep . user interface: there 's um on and off , um volume and channel , and skip to certain channels with the numbers . project manager: right okay . um marketing: well , one one way i would look at this um would be that we a approach the different controls in terms of um like control types , so that for the user it 's very clear what they want to do where they go . project manager: mm-hmm yeah . marketing: uh and also think maybe a little bit about sorta w w what would just wan na be acc easily accessible . project manager: oka marketing: for example if we had audio controls , those could be something people set up very rarely . maybe they 're un they 're they 're they 're in a little area but covered up um , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: things like channel and volume um are used all the time , so we just have them right out on top , um very just very sort of self-explanatory . um so maybe we need to think about having three or more groupings of controls , you know like one which are just the the habitual ones that should be right within your natural grip . and others that are uh also available industrial designer: marketing: and then others that are concealed . project manager: okay . marketing: something like that . project manager: uh well , just to to wrap up quickly on this this little section have i just lost oh no . um , uh do you think maybe that 's the only kind of uh essential requirements , and then maybe just things that would be nice if it could do would be things like audio set up and display set up and things like that , maybe like a mute button , that sort of thing . any of you anything to add to that at all ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: no . project manager: no . industrial designer: i 'll add it later , i guess the presentation . project manager: okay , right . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: um okay , industrial designer: project manager: if we can move on to next presentation then please . um marketing: sure . project manager: do you wan na user interface: do you want to switch places ? marketing: can this can this pl reach ? can this plug come across ? industrial designer: no . no . project manager: probably not , actually . marketing: no . project manager: marketing: so why do n't i just pick up and move then . project manager: yeah . marketing: here , i 'll just why do n't i just user interface: just just switch them . marketing: mm er , can you go up behind me ? kinda this is so this project manager: bit complicated . it 'd be nice if everything was wireless , would n't it ? marketing: i 'm all in a knot now . industrial designer: marketing: okay . project manager: right . industrial designer: marketing: um . so i can i can say already , i dunno whether this is for good or for bad but there 'll be a lot of kind of uh redundancy in the in the the issues and the the uh the things . project manager: oh , like overlap between what you said ? marketing: yeah , yeah . project manager: oh well , for all you know that that 'll happen . marketing: which is ma not necessarily a bad thing , but may what i 've already started doing is cr i created a slide in in my presentation here so um so that we kind of think well what 's the cumulative effect of what we 've taken from your ideas and and mine , because certainly i i have a hard time separating separating things completely . project manager: mm hard to know what where your role ends , yeah . marketing: obviously obviously what you 've just told me what you 've just told me impacts a lot on what um like market research mm that that i 've been project manager: okay . marketing: so how do i how do i get this up ? industrial designer: um function f_ eight . project manager: uh pr yeah , press function and f_ eight , yeah . marketing: okay . okay . alright . so f_ eight ? industrial designer: function , the blue button . next to the control on the left . yeah . marketing: oh , and f_ eight . okay . industrial designer: you have to push it together . project manager: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yep . marketing: okay , i think that that 's doing it now . industrial designer: nope . try that again . marketing: uh , again ? industrial designer: wait . user interface: think maybe the the wire in the back might be loose . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah , you wan na oh oh here we go . marketing: um , industrial designer: yep , there we go . project manager: there you go . marketing: okay great . okay . just um before i bring this up what i 'll just say is um what i 've what i 've done is tried to collect some information so that i can then relay this to to you guys so that it 's now becomes a collective thing . and then kind of lead us in the direction of deciding , 'kay what what are our options , what should we decide and do you know what i mean , so . industrial designer: increase that 'cause we ca n't see the project manager: um marketing: okay . project manager: okay . industrial designer: that 's much better . project manager: right . can you um industrial designer: there you go . project manager: right , okay . marketing: okay . alright . that would be okay . so um does that make sense ? so what i basically got is i just looked into some information and sort of th tried to think about how how we could review it and how we could and what kind of decisions we could take away from it and then maybe by the end of just looking at some of these things we can think about what are our priorities . 'cause certainly there 's lots of different information to go through . so um i 'm thinking here about uh primarily about customer needs , that we start with the customer , and w you know , what they want and what are issues with with um existing products . uh to think about trends and also about try and connect that as you see with the company vision which is about fashion in electronics . um and then , as i say uh w we 'd like to prioritise our design features from this and um project manager: industrial designer: bouncing on top . marketing: dunno . okay . um . project manager: yeah . marketing: so this is what i 've found here , um a lot of this is new to me , so we 'll just read through together . um , users dislike the look and feel of current remote controls . so they find them ugly . most people find them ugly . um the vast majority would spend more money for it to look fancy as well , we 'll see later , the vast majority would spend more money for um slightly more intuitive control , such as voice recognition . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: okay i 'm gon na we 'll look at that in a second . um most people use only a f a very slim portion of all the controls . so i guess what we 're looking at here is people want this h technology , they tend to use the most simple controls and overall they find remote controls to be something they do n't does n't really appeal to them . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so i think what we 're doing is we 're trying to take like if for me this is sorta like three different different um inspirations , you know , one is that we want uh something that 's high-tech but we want it to seem easy . and in spite of the primitive side of it and the very high-tech side , we want it to just be an appealing piece of equipment in people 's hands . um , frustrations . they get lost a lot , s as it came up in our last meeting . um , takes time to learn how to use them . this is uh why i mention when craig was uh showing us some ideas that we actually try and group controls , so d it does n't just look like a big panel , kinda like when you you look at , you know , a new computer keyboard , or something that is quite explanatory . if you want audio , if you want visual , then you have those . um and i will admit i do n't know what r_s_i_ stands for . project manager: repetitive strain injury . industrial designer: is installing a new remote control something that people marketing: uh , no , that did not come up at all . um so here here is another um sort of a a review here of the main things . i also found that most people would uh adults at least would pay more for voice recognition . now apparently we do have access to all the tech cutting edge technology in remote control . so i dunno if that 's possible we might consider getting into it . um . and and again here as we sort of move m sort of thin start thinking about how we wan na sell and market this , i think a recurring theme here is the company wants it to be wants us to make something that 's fashionable and sleek and trendy . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um people uh additionally are n't are n't liking the appearance of their products , so we wan na think about as we take all the sort of the techie features how we can um put that into a unit which is which people like . project manager: okay . marketing: you know , they like the aesthetics and the ergonomics . project manager: so want something that looks good and is easy to use , big priorities . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: yeah , so you know just c looking at what what craig um craig 's i uh ideas are s sorta tell me that maybe what we wan na do is try and um separate the different things that we wan na include in this . so if we do say well we want there to be all the technology will we try and make that almost be like optional technology . you know , it 's like like i find a lot of tvs these days , something really like about 'em is if you wan na just turn 'em on and off you can , but they have little panels where you click and there 's just like tons of features you go through . project manager: mm . so it you wan na group all the different kind of types of functions together , you know . marketing: yeah . project manager: that 's i think it 's a good idea . marketing: yeah . that 's s that 's sort of the um but i i 'm my hope here is that i 'm putting out this information so that we can then say okay , well how do we collectively move on with it . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . marketing: um i i have n't brought out one specific marketing idea , although my sense is that what we should try and think about is what are the current trends in materials and shapes and styles , and then use that . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: but not let that confine us technologically . project manager: okay . right . marketing: so alright ? any um comments on all of that ? project manager: well , um one of the things that we have to decide on by the end of the meeting is who we 're gon na be um who 's our our target audience , our target market . marketing: that 's uh project manager: um , so if we want something that that looks good and is easy to use , but has y is fairly powerful product , whatever , who do we really want to aim that at ? marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: i mean marketing: where 's the money , maybe . project manager: yeah , who wou who would have the money to spend . well i if if like twenty five euro is our is our selling price then you can imagine , marketing: yeah . and who watches tv . mm-hmm . project manager: well i do n't i 'm not really sure how much that will retail at . marketing: mm . project manager: but you want it 's somebody who 's not gon na just use the remote that comes with their telly , i suppose , they 're gon na actually go out and buy one . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so , who do you think we 're aiming this at ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um , i think it 'll be the mid range to the high end market , in terms of people . 'cause twenty five euros for a remote , how much is that lo locally in pounds ? project manager: it 's about sixteen , seventeen pounds , i think . industrial designer: is that too is that a lot of money to buy an extra remote or a replacement remote ? project manager: yeah , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: right . project manager: okay . industrial designer: um so maybe not the high end range , but maybe middle , middle up-ish . kind of . project manager: okay . industrial designer: you know how much ? i dunno i guess you pay , what , ten ten quid for a remote ? project manager: okay . industrial designer: like a simple replacement , right . i mean if you lost your remote and the first thing you just wan na go out and get , project manager: yeah . yeah , marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: would you how much would you pay ? marketing: this this kinda touches on your comments there , david . these are the age groups which we have information on industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and these are this is a table of h what people would pay more for a certain feature . project manager: okay marketing: just gives us a rough idea of where the w the will to spend money on tv equipment is . project manager: okay . marketing: mostly focused around the twenty five age group . project manager: yeah , so do you think we 're we 're aiming at a fairly young market then ? industrial designer: yep . marketing: sort of young professional , kind of . mm-hmm project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: um project manager: um do you think then uh voice recognition is something we should really seriously consider ? what what do you think , craig ? user interface: well , did you not say it was the the adults that were going for the the voice recognition ? sort of the the older group . marketing: uh , yeah , it 's the yep . user interface: uh f marketing: it does it does fit with the market that we 're sort of identifying , project manager: n yeah . marketing: in terms of project manager: i think we are gon na have to narrow it down , to say let 's target these people and give them what they want marketing: okay . project manager: and 'cause you know , there needs to be some kind of selling point to it . marketing: yeah . sure . sure . project manager: so um anybody anything there to add marketing: yeah . project manager: just kind of young professionals , uh th like if we are going to include speech recognition , it 's kind of between fifteen and thirty five seems to be like a really high response to that . so we could say that was our target . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i i think twenty five to thirty five is is is fair to add that in as a group as well project manager: yeah . industrial designer: because that 's more than half your group of people who are willing to at least try and use your technology . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . yeah , yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . okay , so fifteen to thirty five , look fairly young . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: you know , they have bit of expendable income to spend on this sort of thing . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think perhaps that age group is significant as well because those are people who use the computer , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: who are familiar with their with computers in in their everyday work . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think people who are maybe about i would n't say thirty five , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: but people who are about forty-ish and above now would not be so dependent and reliant on a computer or a mobile phone or something like that . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . but yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah , sure . industrial designer: so these are people who are gadgety , right ? project manager: so marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: people who are u growing up used to , you know in schools and in universities , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: when you go on to their working lives , people who would you know regular project manager: yeah . so they 'll not sh not shy away from something quite high-tech . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . mm . project manager: that that 's that 's a good point . marketing: yeah . project manager: um okay , so um industrial designer: project manager: so shall we make the decision uh to include speech recognition marketing: if we can . industrial designer: i i think one thing we should try not to avoid is not to say we have to use speech recognition right now , project manager: if we can . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: because um , based on what you 've go y everybody 's saying , right , you want something simple . project manager: okay . why is that ? industrial designer: you want basic stuff and you want something that 's easy to use . speech recognition might not be the simplest thing for somebody to use . marketing: right . project manager: okay . marketing: could it be an on off thing ? industrial designer: um , marketing: like if you want it on industrial designer: but what i 'm saying is that we 're we 're trying to lock ourselves into a s particular kind of technology , project manager: where you can activate it and deactivate it ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: rather than focusing on on exactly what are the features that we 're gon na say , and then , you know , say speech recognition is good for this , speech recognition is not good for this . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: yeah . sure . industrial designer: so maybe we should marketing: sure . project manager: okay . industrial designer: i suggest that we think about speech recognition , marketing: yeah . sure . industrial designer: anyway it 's a it 's something that can be used to fulfil a function , but at end of the day we do n't look at the technology , but we look at the function first . project manager: uh-huh . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: sure . yep . project manager: uh okay , well do you wan na um give us your presentation industrial designer: okay , sure . project manager: and then then we can i do n't know marketing: yep . project manager: um might have been a good idea to all deliver our presentations and then discuss , but this is this is how we 're marketing: yeah , it 's good well it 's good to get ideas out while they 're fresh in mind . project manager: yeah , exactly , yeah . marketing: um project manager: oh it 's something that 's just occurred to me as well is if we make it um speech reco if we incorporate speech recognition , that 's appealing to people um maybe with a physical disability as well . marketing: not project manager: um . marketing: yeah . and not losing . and also it helps in terms of people not losing this , project manager: yeah . marketing: you know they they 're saying oh it 's i lose it in the couch . project manager: yeah . marketing: like we 're kind of what we 're b sort of getting in into here is mating different uh design features together project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: that they user interface: i reckon one problem with speech recognition is um i 've actually seen one of them used and uh the technology that was in that one was n't particularly amazing , so you end up yelling at the control for hours . industrial designer: project manager: really ? user interface: channel up . marketing: right . user interface: marketing: oh really , you 've seen one before . project manager: do you think maybe we need like further advances in that kind of area until it 's worthwhile incorporating it though ? user interface: um i think it 'd probably quite expensive to put in . industrial designer: sorry , do you mind passing me my notepad . project manager: mm . course not . industrial designer: thanks . cool , project manager: there you go . industrial designer: um . okay . um . project manager: right . industrial designer: well this is just the working design um . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: well this is just what how i would go about it . um i guess i try to define like what we 're doing now , try to define what we 're trying to get done . um i think in a practical way , we kind of know what it is . marketing: right . industrial designer: we 've used it , we 're familiar with it , but we 're we ca n't n we have n't narrowed down um exactly what the things we 're trying to fulfil , like besides the basics , i think back in the back of our minds we know what the basics are . has to change channels , has to change volume , but in like specifics , right , which one of the basics are you trying to target . um are there certain parts of the basics that are more important or less important than the basics ? marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and i just the idea is just to get everybody to um i usually have a have have a design that 's there as a basic , so , you know , things that to start everything going . but i guess everybody does have some idea , so i do n't think um there 's a need for that . um okay this finding things is a little bit confusing , so i 'll go into the diagram first . it just explains how the process goes through , from a project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: from the basic technology point of view , the basic steps that you need um in the diagram and in this slide probably works better . um okay , you need some power source . 'kay , a battery or something , to keep it going . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and that power source is important because it ties you down to um how long the device will last . um it ties you down perhaps a bit later on in terms of the technologies project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: um how far you can transmit the signal or the complexity of the functions that you want . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like for example , voice recognition , right . that might be constrained because that you might need to power a microphone , you might need to power other things , so that 's one perhaps constraint there . um th okay , the basic thing is there 's a user interface where people punch a button or talk into it or smile to it or blink their eyes , whatever . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: you know , and that um picks up an input from a user , um uh a logic a series of logic has to decide what the user is telling the device , and the device has to r you know , based on you push button a_ , so i will do something with button a_ . so maybe button a_ is the power button , okay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and then it needs to be able to send the signal out to the device itself which is the receiver here . um and i think that 's about it in terms of my design um . it 's fairly general , um and i guess the purpose of this is also not to restrict you in in the way you 're thinking , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like um voice recognition , right , um , if it 's something which is important then we just add more power rather than having a thing that we do n't have enough power . so it 's not really a constraint in that sense , project manager: okay . industrial designer: but i mean these are functionally , you know , the base , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: what the technology has to do . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . industrial designer: um so i guess the rest of it marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i think we should maybe you you wan na go back to what the functions are ? i think that 's more relevant to a discussion ? project manager: uh . marketing: 'kay . project manager: well , do you wan do you wan na finish up your your whole presentation then ? marketing: sure . sure . industrial designer: yeah , w i 'm done . project manager: are you are you all done ? industrial designer: more or less . yeah . ps oh , it 's just putting the rest of it into words , but it 's essentially the same thing . marketing: yep . project manager: mm . industrial designer: um you have a transmitter , an input device , logic chip , project manager: okay . industrial designer: you know , stuff like that . project manager: okay . marketing: right . industrial designer: um project manager: right . marketing: and like on the means b industrial designer: i guess this would be marketing: since we 're on the topic of the technology , uh are there any like what are our options ? industrial designer: yep . marketing: alright , what 's what i in is this the only way that we go about it , or are there other thin industrial designer: um , these these are n't technology options in that sense . this is just um marketing: right . industrial designer: a basic principles and basic components that are needed . marketing: the basic principle of project manager: okay . marketing: 'kay . industrial designer: for example , if you needed um if you needed to add uh a voice recognition , right , then your user interface would be split , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: right . industrial designer: broken down into more components , right , marketing: okay . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: which you have a microphone , the v_r_ and stuff like that . project manager: oh . so this just show how we 're kind of modularising the whole thing . marketing: okay . industrial designer: uh yep . yep . so each component represents one function , project manager: okay . industrial designer: but i think the basic functions are the logic , the transmitter , um and the receiver , okay , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and the power are things that you wo n't have to care about . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and those are things that based on what your user interface requires then we 'll add more functionality to it . project manager: yeah . mm-hmm . industrial designer: um there might be one other consideration which would be that the the transmission between the remote control and the tv for example . project manager: okay . industrial designer: okay , um are we gon na restrict ourselves to using the traditional technologies of infra-red thing ? project manager: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . industrial designer: because that 's something you need to actually be physically be pointing to . right . project manager: okay . marketing: right . project manager: well well a worry that was was expressed in the new requirements was that if we made this too complex it would e it would effect um how long how long it took us to get this to market , so i th suspect it might be a good idea just to restrict our kind of our creative influence on this on the user interface and not worry so much about uh how we transmit it industrial designer: yep . project manager: um because i mean it it 's tried and tested intra-red , so we could stay with tha industrial designer: there might be one other problem with the transmission , um in particular right now , since we 're talking about voice recognition . um if somebody 's gon na h talk to the device , you ideally want them to hold it to them . project manager: mm-hmm industrial designer: i it project manager: oh , yeah . industrial designer: you may not require that , marketing: right . industrial designer: but you know , um it 's it 's marketing: right . industrial designer: it 's something very natural , i guess , you know , to hold it , to signal to the user , project manager: yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: and push a button maybe to start s talking about it . project manager: okay . industrial designer: then you need to send the signal out , so because if you 're using infra-red , the line of sight um say the tv 's at that chair , and i 'm standing in front of here and the transmitter is here , it blocks it . project manager: mm . mm . yeah . industrial designer: so in that sense , there 's not really a restriction project manager: okay . industrial designer: but it 's something which you may have to think about later on in the process . marketing: right . industrial designer: not so much further down . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . marketing: and um just a clarification before we finish this . uh does c is our controller is it have the option of being um on a standard uh frequency as all of the other equipment , so that the one controller can control several pieces of equipment ? industrial designer: there 's there 's not much specific specific information , project manager: w industrial designer: but i think that um one indication of infra-red mean that you 're just targeting traditional devices . because infra-red is something which everybody has . project manager: yeah . w well well we 've um marketing: okay . project manager: in the new requirement spec they said just to focus on the tv , industrial designer: marketing: just to tv , okay . project manager: so that 's what we should do for now i think . something i was wondering about was the power . marketing: okay . project manager: um , is it worth considering like having like a charging unit as opposed to just regular batteries ? i mean is that something we really want to go into , do you think , industrial designer: there 's a there 's project manager: or should we just consider running on regular batteries ? industrial designer: okay , from from a from a component point of view there 's added complexity , and you add cost to it , project manager: uh-huh . uh-huh . industrial designer: um and then there 's probably the fact that you need another physical component . you need a docking cradle , for example , for you to put it in to charge . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: or you need to get the user to plug it in . project manager: okay . marketing: project manager: okay , industrial designer: um and most users are very f use already used to the idea of buying batteries and putting it into the controller . project manager: so yeah . industrial designer: but unless the controller 's gon na consume a lot of batteries , like he 's gon na run through like twenty batteries a month , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: then i do n't think rechargeable is something we should you know , we really need to care about . project manager: okay , so just stick to to regular marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um . project manager: okay . um , right . so basically the um i 'm just gon na just recap uh what i said at the start , was that um the the whole point of this meeting was to f absolutely finalise who we 're gon na aim this at , industrial designer: project manager: and what exactly the product 's gon na do . marketing: okay . project manager: so um just to recap on marketing: okay . project manager: are we all happy about the idea of um aiming the product at um the fifteen to thirty five bracket ? um and also the funct the the actual functions of what it 's gon na do . marketing: yeah , that 's good . project manager: do you wan na recap on that , craig ? user interface: um . project manager: user interface: i think we just say that it was gon na be the the most basic stuff possible . um on off , up and down channels , up and down volume and uh skip to a channel . project manager: okay , right . user interface: ta . marketing: and is it going to include any of the uh the more advanced features , or are we gon na eliminate those ? user interface: um i think we include mute , but apart from that um i think we just we 'll go for the simpleness . industrial designer: okay , i think project manager: okay . marketing: okay . r is it is it is it s is it not an option still that we include some things just as a sort of under like sort of under a door or some project manager: yeah , it 's as optional functions . user interface: yeah . marketing: 'cause what what i 'm i 'd be a bit worried about is if someone was h had previously developed habits of expecting to control surround sound or this and that with their controller and then and then they , you know , w they get ours and w it 's does n't have that . project manager: okay . marketing: i dunno if that 'd be a problem . industrial designer: another thing that you were saying about categorising the controls ? um maybe i could suggest we we break them down into three simple categories . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: one would be audio controls , marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: one would be video controls , and the other one would be a device . marketing: okay . industrial designer: um this may not map very well to advanced functionality especially , but i think that um from a manufacturer 's point of view , from a person designing the device , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but i think from a point of view of a person using the device , you know a tv is something they see and something they hear , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um it 's something they do other things to like turn it on and turn it off . i mean like so what we could have is like three buckets , right , where we could throw things into , project manager: yeah . marketing: right . project manager: industrial designer: like if we want this feature , let 's throw it into there , and then from there decide whether it 's basic , or it 's non-basic . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i mean it might help with the visualisation . marketing: 'kay , okay . like that . okay . industrial designer: and it would actually help with the component build as well . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , right . marketing: mm okay , great . project manager: um , okay well i got ta kind of got five minutes to wrap up now . um next thing we 're doing is having lunch . whoohoo . um and then we 're gon na have thirty minutes of working on the next stage . um so i 'll be putting the minutes of this uh this meeting into the project documents folder . um so uh i guess just to just to confirm that we know what we 're doing in the next well in the thirty minutes after lunch anyway , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: project manager: um for uh our industrial designer , you 're gon na be thinking about the components concept . um user interface designer gon na be thinking about our user interface , and marketing you 're gon na be thinking about trend watching . um and you 'll all get specific instructions as well . so um i dunno , just just to to ask now if you 've got anything else you 've thought about while we 've been talking . marketing: project manager: um , do you wan na start with david . anything else to say at all ? industrial designer: mm no , not really . project manager: no , okay . andrew ? marketing: um yeah , just i just wanted to ask then before we wrap up , shall we agree for sake of um sort of clarity and when we when we r resume that we 'll u use this idea david 's proposed , where we think of these three sort of buckets and anything anything we discuss about them is sort of , okay , we 're talking about this . project manager: yeah , yeah i think that 's definitely a good idea . industrial designer: mm . project manager: uh-huh . marketing: shall we do that , then ? project manager: yeah . marketing: okay , great . user interface: um just about the three buckets , um what would go in the the device functions one ? industrial designer: um things like on off . because they do n't have anything to do with what you see . i me mean in terms of picture and the entertainment value , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: you know , um so um project manager: okay . user interface: um marketing: and and channel . industrial designer: and channel . because the on off also goes , you know , like on off like power , not on off sound . marketing: right . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: not on off video . although you do n't turn off the video on your tv , but um you might wan na you know turn off the sound , project manager: okay . industrial designer: say you wan na pick up the phone , there 's a mute button , right , so you you have you have a choice of putting it on to um others or a device . project manager: okay . industrial designer: device is basically anything which we ca n't categorise , right . we put it out . project manager: okay , so you 're gon na have um audio which is gon na be like you know your bass settings and actual volume hi marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , anything to do with what you hear , right . you you put that into audio . project manager: okay . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then video is anything that you can see . project manager: okay , and then visual marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , so brightness , contrast , things like that , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um . yep . project manager: and then just actual device things , marketing: colour , yeah . industrial designer: yep . project manager: like what channel you 're watching , turning on an off , marketing: sure . sure . industrial designer: yep . project manager: stuff like that . marketing: okay . project manager: okay , um marketing: and then k i suppose quite likely what would happen is in the d device category there might be some which are just like the habitual standard and then others which are maybe a bit more industrial designer: like random which we have no other place to put , but we need it somewhere there . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . sure , okay . okay . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um even even if it does n't map very clearly what happens is that people at least have some in their mind . project manager: okay . industrial designer: it 's easy to use , i think that 's one thing that um and i guess from the component point of view it 's easy to build as well project manager: okay . industrial designer: 'cause things are like fixed . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: um so yeah , i guess just things to think about are you know like the fact it 's got ta look good , industrial designer: project manager: because of who we 're we 're , you know , targeting this at . um something maybe kind of quirky in design maybe . make it kind of ergonomic kind of to hold , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: you know , things like that . um , so i guess i guess that 's it . that 's the meeting over . marketing: great . project manager: whoohoo . marketing: then we get to go find out what was picked up for lunch for us . user interface: { vocalsound }

this meeting was about the functional design of the remote control . firstly , user interface presented on the technical function design . for the previous remote , user interface found it was clunky but the functions were basic , or the remote was too complicated with lots of buttons . based on this , user interface demonstrated two kinds of buttons access to advanced functions . next , marketing presented on market trends and proposed three inspirations including the fancy look and technology innovation based on the customer needs . then , industrial designer presented on the working design and introduced the working design logic of the battery and power source . lastly , the group discussed the remote functions . they decided to have fifteen to thirty-five-year-old target groups as well as to have video controls map to advanced functionality so that they could skip the basic channel button .

summarize the presentation on market inspirations . </s> project manager: is that alright now ? okay . sorry ? okay , everybody all set to start the meeting ? okay , we 've got half an hour for this one um to uh discuss the um functional design . marketing: could you plug me in ? user interface: marketing: okay . thanks . project manager: all ready to go ? okay . marketing: okay . project manager: um so hopefully you 've all been working away , and i 've put the minutes of the last meeting in the project folder . um so i guess just to to recap on uh what we did last time . um kind of uh got to know each other a little bit and uh got familiar with all the equipment and started to discuss um a bit about the project , you know , cost-wise how much how much money we had to s um just want to tell you that you have three new requirements , which is the the first one is that um uh the company 's decided that teletext is outdated uh because of how popular the internet is . nobody uses teletext very much anymore , so we do n't really need to consider that in the functionality of the of the remote control . marketing: 'kay . project manager: um they 've also suggested that we um we only use the remote control to control the television , not the v_c_r_ , d_v_d_ or anything else . i think the worry is that if the project becomes too complex then it 'll affect um how long it takes us to get it into into production , the time to market . so um , we 're just gon na keep it simple and it 'll just control the tv . marketing: okay . project manager: and the other thing was that the company want the corporate colour and slogan to be implemented in the new design . um i 'm not entirely sure what the corporate colour is . it might be yellow , because there seems to be a lot of yellow everywhere . marketing: and the slogan , like the actual written slogan , or just to embody the idea of the slogan ? project manager: well that 's the thing , i 'm i 'm not sure um uh th because on the the company website , uh what does it say uh something marketing: 'bout putting the fashion in electronics . industrial designer: mm yeah . project manager: yeah , i mean do they is that something they want actually written on it , 'cause it 's quite long . um or yeah , just the idea , but i 'm not sure . so that 's something we can discuss as well . so those are the three things , just not to worry about teletext , uh only control the tv , and um and uh incorporate the uh colour and slogan of the company . um so is everybody okay with any of that , or do you want me to recap at all ? industrial designer: nope , we 're all set . project manager: right um , time for presentations then . who would like to go first ? user interface: i 'll go first . project manager: okay , cool . marketing: sure . user interface: alright um , can i st steal this from the back of your laptop ? uh project manager: oh yeah , of course , yeah . g go on ahead . marketing: user interface: so this is the technical functions design . um right to do the um the design i have i 've had a look online , i 've had a look at the homepage , which has given us um some insp inspiration from previous products . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um i 've had a look at the previous products to see what they offer and um i would like to ask you guys for um your ideas about the design at the end of the meeting . um unfortunately we 're not allowed to talk outside the meeting room , so project manager: okay . marketing: right . user interface: um , having a look at the existing products , i found out that um it tends to come in sort of two extremes , there 's either um a very complicated one that 's got lots of buttons , lots of colours , very confusing , you do n't know what you 're doing . um in that case the the labelling tends to be very bad . um there 's an example i 'll show you at the end , um sh show you now . uh project manager: alright . user interface: here um the button there and there . this one 's prog . sorry . that one 's perg and that one 's prog , and it does n't really tell you what it does . um , not sure if you had a a look at the other um control in that example . um it 's a very simple one . it 's got only the basic functions mm but um it 's the same size as the the hard to use one . project manager: oop . user interface: uh it looked a bit clunky . they 're very big and not very much use for buttons . um , and it 's just very hard to access the advanced functions . there 's there 's nothing for instance for a slow motion button . um , my own preferences , i prefer the the clunky one . um it 's very easy to use . um but unfortunately it does lack the advanced functions which i i quite like having on the controls . um so i believe the the advanced functions should maybe be hidden in a drawer , or something like tha from the bottom of it . so , now i 'd like to ask for your preferences . um not sure of how long we 've got , uh project manager: um . well we can chat away for uh for five minutes or so i think at at most . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: just a couple of minutes anyway . marketing: m yeah , like a lot of a lot of what i 've um read and prepared for this meeting fits in really closely with what with what craig 's just gone over . so in part i could i could give you some of my personal preferences but i could also th add some to this which is just about sort of um sort of market research . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: but anyway , project manager: shall we sh well we 'll stick to kind of your area for now . marketing: um we might come to that later . industrial designer: which which is the clunky one , the one on left or on the right ? . . user interface: um , the clunky one is the one on the right . industrial designer: okay . project manager: yeah . marketing: um clunky in what sense , like um h heavier ? larger ? user interface: um i think it 's supposed to be the same size , but um it 's got much fewer buttons . it 's , you know , it 's very spread out marketing: i see , so it 's more just basic . project manager: looks kind of yeah . user interface: and kind of you know marketing: right , okay . user interface: , i get the idea it 'd be sort of about this size . got very few buttons on it and marketing: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . sure . project manager: well i think it 's a valid point . i mean like the one on the left looks quite um quite complicated , and that p_r_t_ p p_r_o_t_ thing is incredibly confusing . um so i see i see why yo you know you might prefer the simpler design , but yeah you do n't want to lose out on , you know , what it does , so maybe you know marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: you know you get a lot of remote controls where you kind of flip the thing open , industrial designer: project manager: i think that 's a good idea . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think it 's a good idea . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: um , do we have any functions that um we 'd want on it ? marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i mean so far i 've got um on and off , um switch the channel up and down , and put the volume up and down . project manager: mm-hmm . uh-huh . user interface: um they 're just the the very basics you could use for a tv . project manager: uh-huh , and then actual numbers for channels as well , yeah . user interface: okay . um , you say that 's a h a required one or a requested one ? would you like marketing: which was that ? user interface: um the channels like the the numbers on thing , um marketing: up the numbers , or the up down ? project manager: god , i wou i would say that 's required , marketing: project manager: i mean there 's no way anybody 's gon na buy a remote control these days when if you ca n't actually individually select channels , marketing: yeah . project manager: i mean would anybody disagree with that ? marketing: yeah . project manager: um , what else , uh so do n't need to worry about teletext , marketing: project manager: do n't need to worry about v_c_r_ , uh any kind of like display controls at all do you think we need to worry about , marketing: we do n't ? no ? project manager: you know like brightness and contrast ? marketing: yeah . well i think i think es essentially what we 're doing right now is we 're categorising . we 're saying well we want this to be a product that offers all the sort of more tricky features but we want them to be in another area ? project manager: mm . marketing: is that right ? project manager: yeah . marketing: is that what we 're we 're doing ? user interface: um , yeah . marketing: we 're kind of like sorting them an or are we actually eliminating things we just do n't want the product to have ? user interface: um project manager: i think are you are you maybe kind of thinking what we absolutely have to have and what would be nice ? user interface: uh , to start with um sort of a bit both , um we need to find out exactly what we have to have project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um and after that we can add things if they 're possible . project manager: okay , right . well , do you wan na maybe just , at this point decide on what we absolutely must have as a p as a function of this . marketing: yeah . project manager: um , so so far , just to recap you 've got volume and channel control and marketing: yep . user interface: there 's um on and off , um volume and channel , and skip to certain channels with the numbers . project manager: right okay . um marketing: well , one one way i would look at this um would be that we a approach the different controls in terms of um like control types , so that for the user it 's very clear what they want to do where they go . project manager: mm-hmm yeah . marketing: uh and also think maybe a little bit about sorta w w what would just wan na be acc easily accessible . project manager: oka marketing: for example if we had audio controls , those could be something people set up very rarely . maybe they 're un they 're they 're they 're in a little area but covered up um , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: things like channel and volume um are used all the time , so we just have them right out on top , um very just very sort of self-explanatory . um so maybe we need to think about having three or more groupings of controls , you know like one which are just the the habitual ones that should be right within your natural grip . and others that are uh also available industrial designer: marketing: and then others that are concealed . project manager: okay . marketing: something like that . project manager: uh well , just to to wrap up quickly on this this little section have i just lost oh no . um , uh do you think maybe that 's the only kind of uh essential requirements , and then maybe just things that would be nice if it could do would be things like audio set up and display set up and things like that , maybe like a mute button , that sort of thing . any of you anything to add to that at all ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: no . project manager: no . industrial designer: i 'll add it later , i guess the presentation . project manager: okay , right . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: um okay , industrial designer: project manager: if we can move on to next presentation then please . um marketing: sure . project manager: do you wan na user interface: do you want to switch places ? marketing: can this can this pl reach ? can this plug come across ? industrial designer: no . no . project manager: probably not , actually . marketing: no . project manager: marketing: so why do n't i just pick up and move then . project manager: yeah . marketing: here , i 'll just why do n't i just user interface: just just switch them . marketing: mm er , can you go up behind me ? kinda this is so this project manager: bit complicated . it 'd be nice if everything was wireless , would n't it ? marketing: i 'm all in a knot now . industrial designer: marketing: okay . project manager: right . industrial designer: marketing: um . so i can i can say already , i dunno whether this is for good or for bad but there 'll be a lot of kind of uh redundancy in the in the the issues and the the uh the things . project manager: oh , like overlap between what you said ? marketing: yeah , yeah . project manager: oh well , for all you know that that 'll happen . marketing: which is ma not necessarily a bad thing , but may what i 've already started doing is cr i created a slide in in my presentation here so um so that we kind of think well what 's the cumulative effect of what we 've taken from your ideas and and mine , because certainly i i have a hard time separating separating things completely . project manager: mm hard to know what where your role ends , yeah . marketing: obviously obviously what you 've just told me what you 've just told me impacts a lot on what um like market research mm that that i 've been project manager: okay . marketing: so how do i how do i get this up ? industrial designer: um function f_ eight . project manager: uh pr yeah , press function and f_ eight , yeah . marketing: okay . okay . alright . so f_ eight ? industrial designer: function , the blue button . next to the control on the left . yeah . marketing: oh , and f_ eight . okay . industrial designer: you have to push it together . project manager: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yep . marketing: okay , i think that that 's doing it now . industrial designer: nope . try that again . marketing: uh , again ? industrial designer: wait . user interface: think maybe the the wire in the back might be loose . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah , you wan na oh oh here we go . marketing: um , industrial designer: yep , there we go . project manager: there you go . marketing: okay great . okay . just um before i bring this up what i 'll just say is um what i 've what i 've done is tried to collect some information so that i can then relay this to to you guys so that it 's now becomes a collective thing . and then kind of lead us in the direction of deciding , 'kay what what are our options , what should we decide and do you know what i mean , so . industrial designer: increase that 'cause we ca n't see the project manager: um marketing: okay . project manager: okay . industrial designer: that 's much better . project manager: right . can you um industrial designer: there you go . project manager: right , okay . marketing: okay . alright . that would be okay . so um does that make sense ? so what i basically got is i just looked into some information and sort of th tried to think about how how we could review it and how we could and what kind of decisions we could take away from it and then maybe by the end of just looking at some of these things we can think about what are our priorities . 'cause certainly there 's lots of different information to go through . so um i 'm thinking here about uh primarily about customer needs , that we start with the customer , and w you know , what they want and what are issues with with um existing products . uh to think about trends and also about try and connect that as you see with the company vision which is about fashion in electronics . um and then , as i say uh w we 'd like to prioritise our design features from this and um project manager: industrial designer: bouncing on top . marketing: dunno . okay . um . project manager: yeah . marketing: so this is what i 've found here , um a lot of this is new to me , so we 'll just read through together . um , users dislike the look and feel of current remote controls . so they find them ugly . most people find them ugly . um the vast majority would spend more money for it to look fancy as well , we 'll see later , the vast majority would spend more money for um slightly more intuitive control , such as voice recognition . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: okay i 'm gon na we 'll look at that in a second . um most people use only a f a very slim portion of all the controls . so i guess what we 're looking at here is people want this h technology , they tend to use the most simple controls and overall they find remote controls to be something they do n't does n't really appeal to them . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so i think what we 're doing is we 're trying to take like if for me this is sorta like three different different um inspirations , you know , one is that we want uh something that 's high-tech but we want it to seem easy . and in spite of the primitive side of it and the very high-tech side , we want it to just be an appealing piece of equipment in people 's hands . um , frustrations . they get lost a lot , s as it came up in our last meeting . um , takes time to learn how to use them . this is uh why i mention when craig was uh showing us some ideas that we actually try and group controls , so d it does n't just look like a big panel , kinda like when you you look at , you know , a new computer keyboard , or something that is quite explanatory . if you want audio , if you want visual , then you have those . um and i will admit i do n't know what r_s_i_ stands for . project manager: repetitive strain injury . industrial designer: is installing a new remote control something that people marketing: uh , no , that did not come up at all . um so here here is another um sort of a a review here of the main things . i also found that most people would uh adults at least would pay more for voice recognition . now apparently we do have access to all the tech cutting edge technology in remote control . so i dunno if that 's possible we might consider getting into it . um . and and again here as we sort of move m sort of thin start thinking about how we wan na sell and market this , i think a recurring theme here is the company wants it to be wants us to make something that 's fashionable and sleek and trendy . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um people uh additionally are n't are n't liking the appearance of their products , so we wan na think about as we take all the sort of the techie features how we can um put that into a unit which is which people like . project manager: okay . marketing: you know , they like the aesthetics and the ergonomics . project manager: so want something that looks good and is easy to use , big priorities . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: yeah , so you know just c looking at what what craig um craig 's i uh ideas are s sorta tell me that maybe what we wan na do is try and um separate the different things that we wan na include in this . so if we do say well we want there to be all the technology will we try and make that almost be like optional technology . you know , it 's like like i find a lot of tvs these days , something really like about 'em is if you wan na just turn 'em on and off you can , but they have little panels where you click and there 's just like tons of features you go through . project manager: mm . so it you wan na group all the different kind of types of functions together , you know . marketing: yeah . project manager: that 's i think it 's a good idea . marketing: yeah . that 's s that 's sort of the um but i i 'm my hope here is that i 'm putting out this information so that we can then say okay , well how do we collectively move on with it . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . marketing: um i i have n't brought out one specific marketing idea , although my sense is that what we should try and think about is what are the current trends in materials and shapes and styles , and then use that . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: but not let that confine us technologically . project manager: okay . right . marketing: so alright ? any um comments on all of that ? project manager: well , um one of the things that we have to decide on by the end of the meeting is who we 're gon na be um who 's our our target audience , our target market . marketing: that 's uh project manager: um , so if we want something that that looks good and is easy to use , but has y is fairly powerful product , whatever , who do we really want to aim that at ? marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: i mean marketing: where 's the money , maybe . project manager: yeah , who wou who would have the money to spend . well i if if like twenty five euro is our is our selling price then you can imagine , marketing: yeah . and who watches tv . mm-hmm . project manager: well i do n't i 'm not really sure how much that will retail at . marketing: mm . project manager: but you want it 's somebody who 's not gon na just use the remote that comes with their telly , i suppose , they 're gon na actually go out and buy one . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so , who do you think we 're aiming this at ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um , i think it 'll be the mid range to the high end market , in terms of people . 'cause twenty five euros for a remote , how much is that lo locally in pounds ? project manager: it 's about sixteen , seventeen pounds , i think . industrial designer: is that too is that a lot of money to buy an extra remote or a replacement remote ? project manager: yeah , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: right . project manager: okay . industrial designer: um so maybe not the high end range , but maybe middle , middle up-ish . kind of . project manager: okay . industrial designer: you know how much ? i dunno i guess you pay , what , ten ten quid for a remote ? project manager: okay . industrial designer: like a simple replacement , right . i mean if you lost your remote and the first thing you just wan na go out and get , project manager: yeah . yeah , marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: would you how much would you pay ? marketing: this this kinda touches on your comments there , david . these are the age groups which we have information on industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and these are this is a table of h what people would pay more for a certain feature . project manager: okay marketing: just gives us a rough idea of where the w the will to spend money on tv equipment is . project manager: okay . marketing: mostly focused around the twenty five age group . project manager: yeah , so do you think we 're we 're aiming at a fairly young market then ? industrial designer: yep . marketing: sort of young professional , kind of . mm-hmm project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: um project manager: um do you think then uh voice recognition is something we should really seriously consider ? what what do you think , craig ? user interface: well , did you not say it was the the adults that were going for the the voice recognition ? sort of the the older group . marketing: uh , yeah , it 's the yep . user interface: uh f marketing: it does it does fit with the market that we 're sort of identifying , project manager: n yeah . marketing: in terms of project manager: i think we are gon na have to narrow it down , to say let 's target these people and give them what they want marketing: okay . project manager: and 'cause you know , there needs to be some kind of selling point to it . marketing: yeah . sure . sure . project manager: so um anybody anything there to add marketing: yeah . project manager: just kind of young professionals , uh th like if we are going to include speech recognition , it 's kind of between fifteen and thirty five seems to be like a really high response to that . so we could say that was our target . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i i think twenty five to thirty five is is is fair to add that in as a group as well project manager: yeah . industrial designer: because that 's more than half your group of people who are willing to at least try and use your technology . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . yeah , yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . okay , so fifteen to thirty five , look fairly young . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: you know , they have bit of expendable income to spend on this sort of thing . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think perhaps that age group is significant as well because those are people who use the computer , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: who are familiar with their with computers in in their everyday work . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think people who are maybe about i would n't say thirty five , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: but people who are about forty-ish and above now would not be so dependent and reliant on a computer or a mobile phone or something like that . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . but yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah , sure . industrial designer: so these are people who are gadgety , right ? project manager: so marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: people who are u growing up used to , you know in schools and in universities , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: when you go on to their working lives , people who would you know regular project manager: yeah . so they 'll not sh not shy away from something quite high-tech . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . mm . project manager: that that 's that 's a good point . marketing: yeah . project manager: um okay , so um industrial designer: project manager: so shall we make the decision uh to include speech recognition marketing: if we can . industrial designer: i i think one thing we should try not to avoid is not to say we have to use speech recognition right now , project manager: if we can . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: because um , based on what you 've go y everybody 's saying , right , you want something simple . project manager: okay . why is that ? industrial designer: you want basic stuff and you want something that 's easy to use . speech recognition might not be the simplest thing for somebody to use . marketing: right . project manager: okay . marketing: could it be an on off thing ? industrial designer: um , marketing: like if you want it on industrial designer: but what i 'm saying is that we 're we 're trying to lock ourselves into a s particular kind of technology , project manager: where you can activate it and deactivate it ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: rather than focusing on on exactly what are the features that we 're gon na say , and then , you know , say speech recognition is good for this , speech recognition is not good for this . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: yeah . sure . industrial designer: so maybe we should marketing: sure . project manager: okay . industrial designer: i suggest that we think about speech recognition , marketing: yeah . sure . industrial designer: anyway it 's a it 's something that can be used to fulfil a function , but at end of the day we do n't look at the technology , but we look at the function first . project manager: uh-huh . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: sure . yep . project manager: uh okay , well do you wan na um give us your presentation industrial designer: okay , sure . project manager: and then then we can i do n't know marketing: yep . project manager: um might have been a good idea to all deliver our presentations and then discuss , but this is this is how we 're marketing: yeah , it 's good well it 's good to get ideas out while they 're fresh in mind . project manager: yeah , exactly , yeah . marketing: um project manager: oh it 's something that 's just occurred to me as well is if we make it um speech reco if we incorporate speech recognition , that 's appealing to people um maybe with a physical disability as well . marketing: not project manager: um . marketing: yeah . and not losing . and also it helps in terms of people not losing this , project manager: yeah . marketing: you know they they 're saying oh it 's i lose it in the couch . project manager: yeah . marketing: like we 're kind of what we 're b sort of getting in into here is mating different uh design features together project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: that they user interface: i reckon one problem with speech recognition is um i 've actually seen one of them used and uh the technology that was in that one was n't particularly amazing , so you end up yelling at the control for hours . industrial designer: project manager: really ? user interface: channel up . marketing: right . user interface: marketing: oh really , you 've seen one before . project manager: do you think maybe we need like further advances in that kind of area until it 's worthwhile incorporating it though ? user interface: um i think it 'd probably quite expensive to put in . industrial designer: sorry , do you mind passing me my notepad . project manager: mm . course not . industrial designer: thanks . cool , project manager: there you go . industrial designer: um . okay . um . project manager: right . industrial designer: well this is just the working design um . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: well this is just what how i would go about it . um i guess i try to define like what we 're doing now , try to define what we 're trying to get done . um i think in a practical way , we kind of know what it is . marketing: right . industrial designer: we 've used it , we 're familiar with it , but we 're we ca n't n we have n't narrowed down um exactly what the things we 're trying to fulfil , like besides the basics , i think back in the back of our minds we know what the basics are . has to change channels , has to change volume , but in like specifics , right , which one of the basics are you trying to target . um are there certain parts of the basics that are more important or less important than the basics ? marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and i just the idea is just to get everybody to um i usually have a have have a design that 's there as a basic , so , you know , things that to start everything going . but i guess everybody does have some idea , so i do n't think um there 's a need for that . um okay this finding things is a little bit confusing , so i 'll go into the diagram first . it just explains how the process goes through , from a project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: from the basic technology point of view , the basic steps that you need um in the diagram and in this slide probably works better . um okay , you need some power source . 'kay , a battery or something , to keep it going . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and that power source is important because it ties you down to um how long the device will last . um it ties you down perhaps a bit later on in terms of the technologies project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: um how far you can transmit the signal or the complexity of the functions that you want . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like for example , voice recognition , right . that might be constrained because that you might need to power a microphone , you might need to power other things , so that 's one perhaps constraint there . um th okay , the basic thing is there 's a user interface where people punch a button or talk into it or smile to it or blink their eyes , whatever . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: you know , and that um picks up an input from a user , um uh a logic a series of logic has to decide what the user is telling the device , and the device has to r you know , based on you push button a_ , so i will do something with button a_ . so maybe button a_ is the power button , okay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and then it needs to be able to send the signal out to the device itself which is the receiver here . um and i think that 's about it in terms of my design um . it 's fairly general , um and i guess the purpose of this is also not to restrict you in in the way you 're thinking , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like um voice recognition , right , um , if it 's something which is important then we just add more power rather than having a thing that we do n't have enough power . so it 's not really a constraint in that sense , project manager: okay . industrial designer: but i mean these are functionally , you know , the base , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: what the technology has to do . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . industrial designer: um so i guess the rest of it marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i think we should maybe you you wan na go back to what the functions are ? i think that 's more relevant to a discussion ? project manager: uh . marketing: 'kay . project manager: well , do you wan do you wan na finish up your your whole presentation then ? marketing: sure . sure . industrial designer: yeah , w i 'm done . project manager: are you are you all done ? industrial designer: more or less . yeah . ps oh , it 's just putting the rest of it into words , but it 's essentially the same thing . marketing: yep . project manager: mm . industrial designer: um you have a transmitter , an input device , logic chip , project manager: okay . industrial designer: you know , stuff like that . project manager: okay . marketing: right . industrial designer: um project manager: right . marketing: and like on the means b industrial designer: i guess this would be marketing: since we 're on the topic of the technology , uh are there any like what are our options ? industrial designer: yep . marketing: alright , what 's what i in is this the only way that we go about it , or are there other thin industrial designer: um , these these are n't technology options in that sense . this is just um marketing: right . industrial designer: a basic principles and basic components that are needed . marketing: the basic principle of project manager: okay . marketing: 'kay . industrial designer: for example , if you needed um if you needed to add uh a voice recognition , right , then your user interface would be split , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: right . industrial designer: broken down into more components , right , marketing: okay . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: which you have a microphone , the v_r_ and stuff like that . project manager: oh . so this just show how we 're kind of modularising the whole thing . marketing: okay . industrial designer: uh yep . yep . so each component represents one function , project manager: okay . industrial designer: but i think the basic functions are the logic , the transmitter , um and the receiver , okay , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and the power are things that you wo n't have to care about . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and those are things that based on what your user interface requires then we 'll add more functionality to it . project manager: yeah . mm-hmm . industrial designer: um there might be one other consideration which would be that the the transmission between the remote control and the tv for example . project manager: okay . industrial designer: okay , um are we gon na restrict ourselves to using the traditional technologies of infra-red thing ? project manager: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . industrial designer: because that 's something you need to actually be physically be pointing to . right . project manager: okay . marketing: right . project manager: well well a worry that was was expressed in the new requirements was that if we made this too complex it would e it would effect um how long how long it took us to get this to market , so i th suspect it might be a good idea just to restrict our kind of our creative influence on this on the user interface and not worry so much about uh how we transmit it industrial designer: yep . project manager: um because i mean it it 's tried and tested intra-red , so we could stay with tha industrial designer: there might be one other problem with the transmission , um in particular right now , since we 're talking about voice recognition . um if somebody 's gon na h talk to the device , you ideally want them to hold it to them . project manager: mm-hmm industrial designer: i it project manager: oh , yeah . industrial designer: you may not require that , marketing: right . industrial designer: but you know , um it 's it 's marketing: right . industrial designer: it 's something very natural , i guess , you know , to hold it , to signal to the user , project manager: yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: and push a button maybe to start s talking about it . project manager: okay . industrial designer: then you need to send the signal out , so because if you 're using infra-red , the line of sight um say the tv 's at that chair , and i 'm standing in front of here and the transmitter is here , it blocks it . project manager: mm . mm . yeah . industrial designer: so in that sense , there 's not really a restriction project manager: okay . industrial designer: but it 's something which you may have to think about later on in the process . marketing: right . industrial designer: not so much further down . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . marketing: and um just a clarification before we finish this . uh does c is our controller is it have the option of being um on a standard uh frequency as all of the other equipment , so that the one controller can control several pieces of equipment ? industrial designer: there 's there 's not much specific specific information , project manager: w industrial designer: but i think that um one indication of infra-red mean that you 're just targeting traditional devices . because infra-red is something which everybody has . project manager: yeah . w well well we 've um marketing: okay . project manager: in the new requirement spec they said just to focus on the tv , industrial designer: marketing: just to tv , okay . project manager: so that 's what we should do for now i think . something i was wondering about was the power . marketing: okay . project manager: um , is it worth considering like having like a charging unit as opposed to just regular batteries ? i mean is that something we really want to go into , do you think , industrial designer: there 's a there 's project manager: or should we just consider running on regular batteries ? industrial designer: okay , from from a from a component point of view there 's added complexity , and you add cost to it , project manager: uh-huh . uh-huh . industrial designer: um and then there 's probably the fact that you need another physical component . you need a docking cradle , for example , for you to put it in to charge . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: or you need to get the user to plug it in . project manager: okay . marketing: project manager: okay , industrial designer: um and most users are very f use already used to the idea of buying batteries and putting it into the controller . project manager: so yeah . industrial designer: but unless the controller 's gon na consume a lot of batteries , like he 's gon na run through like twenty batteries a month , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: then i do n't think rechargeable is something we should you know , we really need to care about . project manager: okay , so just stick to to regular marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um . project manager: okay . um , right . so basically the um i 'm just gon na just recap uh what i said at the start , was that um the the whole point of this meeting was to f absolutely finalise who we 're gon na aim this at , industrial designer: project manager: and what exactly the product 's gon na do . marketing: okay . project manager: so um just to recap on marketing: okay . project manager: are we all happy about the idea of um aiming the product at um the fifteen to thirty five bracket ? um and also the funct the the actual functions of what it 's gon na do . marketing: yeah , that 's good . project manager: do you wan na recap on that , craig ? user interface: um . project manager: user interface: i think we just say that it was gon na be the the most basic stuff possible . um on off , up and down channels , up and down volume and uh skip to a channel . project manager: okay , right . user interface: ta . marketing: and is it going to include any of the uh the more advanced features , or are we gon na eliminate those ? user interface: um i think we include mute , but apart from that um i think we just we 'll go for the simpleness . industrial designer: okay , i think project manager: okay . marketing: okay . r is it is it is it s is it not an option still that we include some things just as a sort of under like sort of under a door or some project manager: yeah , it 's as optional functions . user interface: yeah . marketing: 'cause what what i 'm i 'd be a bit worried about is if someone was h had previously developed habits of expecting to control surround sound or this and that with their controller and then and then they , you know , w they get ours and w it 's does n't have that . project manager: okay . marketing: i dunno if that 'd be a problem . industrial designer: another thing that you were saying about categorising the controls ? um maybe i could suggest we we break them down into three simple categories . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: one would be audio controls , marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: one would be video controls , and the other one would be a device . marketing: okay . industrial designer: um this may not map very well to advanced functionality especially , but i think that um from a manufacturer 's point of view , from a person designing the device , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but i think from a point of view of a person using the device , you know a tv is something they see and something they hear , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um it 's something they do other things to like turn it on and turn it off . i mean like so what we could have is like three buckets , right , where we could throw things into , project manager: yeah . marketing: right . project manager: industrial designer: like if we want this feature , let 's throw it into there , and then from there decide whether it 's basic , or it 's non-basic . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i mean it might help with the visualisation . marketing: 'kay , okay . like that . okay . industrial designer: and it would actually help with the component build as well . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , right . marketing: mm okay , great . project manager: um , okay well i got ta kind of got five minutes to wrap up now . um next thing we 're doing is having lunch . whoohoo . um and then we 're gon na have thirty minutes of working on the next stage . um so i 'll be putting the minutes of this uh this meeting into the project documents folder . um so uh i guess just to just to confirm that we know what we 're doing in the next well in the thirty minutes after lunch anyway , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: project manager: um for uh our industrial designer , you 're gon na be thinking about the components concept . um user interface designer gon na be thinking about our user interface , and marketing you 're gon na be thinking about trend watching . um and you 'll all get specific instructions as well . so um i dunno , just just to to ask now if you 've got anything else you 've thought about while we 've been talking . marketing: project manager: um , do you wan na start with david . anything else to say at all ? industrial designer: mm no , not really . project manager: no , okay . andrew ? marketing: um yeah , just i just wanted to ask then before we wrap up , shall we agree for sake of um sort of clarity and when we when we r resume that we 'll u use this idea david 's proposed , where we think of these three sort of buckets and anything anything we discuss about them is sort of , okay , we 're talking about this . project manager: yeah , yeah i think that 's definitely a good idea . industrial designer: mm . project manager: uh-huh . marketing: shall we do that , then ? project manager: yeah . marketing: okay , great . user interface: um just about the three buckets , um what would go in the the device functions one ? industrial designer: um things like on off . because they do n't have anything to do with what you see . i me mean in terms of picture and the entertainment value , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: you know , um so um project manager: okay . user interface: um marketing: and and channel . industrial designer: and channel . because the on off also goes , you know , like on off like power , not on off sound . marketing: right . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: not on off video . although you do n't turn off the video on your tv , but um you might wan na you know turn off the sound , project manager: okay . industrial designer: say you wan na pick up the phone , there 's a mute button , right , so you you have you have a choice of putting it on to um others or a device . project manager: okay . industrial designer: device is basically anything which we ca n't categorise , right . we put it out . project manager: okay , so you 're gon na have um audio which is gon na be like you know your bass settings and actual volume hi marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , anything to do with what you hear , right . you you put that into audio . project manager: okay . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then video is anything that you can see . project manager: okay , and then visual marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , so brightness , contrast , things like that , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um . yep . project manager: and then just actual device things , marketing: colour , yeah . industrial designer: yep . project manager: like what channel you 're watching , turning on an off , marketing: sure . sure . industrial designer: yep . project manager: stuff like that . marketing: okay . project manager: okay , um marketing: and then k i suppose quite likely what would happen is in the d device category there might be some which are just like the habitual standard and then others which are maybe a bit more industrial designer: like random which we have no other place to put , but we need it somewhere there . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . sure , okay . okay . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um even even if it does n't map very clearly what happens is that people at least have some in their mind . project manager: okay . industrial designer: it 's easy to use , i think that 's one thing that um and i guess from the component point of view it 's easy to build as well project manager: okay . industrial designer: 'cause things are like fixed . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: um so yeah , i guess just things to think about are you know like the fact it 's got ta look good , industrial designer: project manager: because of who we 're we 're , you know , targeting this at . um something maybe kind of quirky in design maybe . make it kind of ergonomic kind of to hold , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: you know , things like that . um , so i guess i guess that 's it . that 's the meeting over . marketing: great . project manager: whoohoo . marketing: then we get to go find out what was picked up for lunch for us . user interface: { vocalsound }

marketing mentioned three main inspirations . the first one was the customer ’ s need for the trend of fashion in electronics . the second one was the simplicity of technology and marketing mentioned that existing customers would be willing to pay more for voice recognition . the third one was about the aesthetics , the look of the remote including its shape and colour .

what did marketing think of installing a new remote control when presenting the second inspiration on technology simplicity ? </s> project manager: is that alright now ? okay . sorry ? okay , everybody all set to start the meeting ? okay , we 've got half an hour for this one um to uh discuss the um functional design . marketing: could you plug me in ? user interface: marketing: okay . thanks . project manager: all ready to go ? okay . marketing: okay . project manager: um so hopefully you 've all been working away , and i 've put the minutes of the last meeting in the project folder . um so i guess just to to recap on uh what we did last time . um kind of uh got to know each other a little bit and uh got familiar with all the equipment and started to discuss um a bit about the project , you know , cost-wise how much how much money we had to s um just want to tell you that you have three new requirements , which is the the first one is that um uh the company 's decided that teletext is outdated uh because of how popular the internet is . nobody uses teletext very much anymore , so we do n't really need to consider that in the functionality of the of the remote control . marketing: 'kay . project manager: um they 've also suggested that we um we only use the remote control to control the television , not the v_c_r_ , d_v_d_ or anything else . i think the worry is that if the project becomes too complex then it 'll affect um how long it takes us to get it into into production , the time to market . so um , we 're just gon na keep it simple and it 'll just control the tv . marketing: okay . project manager: and the other thing was that the company want the corporate colour and slogan to be implemented in the new design . um i 'm not entirely sure what the corporate colour is . it might be yellow , because there seems to be a lot of yellow everywhere . marketing: and the slogan , like the actual written slogan , or just to embody the idea of the slogan ? project manager: well that 's the thing , i 'm i 'm not sure um uh th because on the the company website , uh what does it say uh something marketing: 'bout putting the fashion in electronics . industrial designer: mm yeah . project manager: yeah , i mean do they is that something they want actually written on it , 'cause it 's quite long . um or yeah , just the idea , but i 'm not sure . so that 's something we can discuss as well . so those are the three things , just not to worry about teletext , uh only control the tv , and um and uh incorporate the uh colour and slogan of the company . um so is everybody okay with any of that , or do you want me to recap at all ? industrial designer: nope , we 're all set . project manager: right um , time for presentations then . who would like to go first ? user interface: i 'll go first . project manager: okay , cool . marketing: sure . user interface: alright um , can i st steal this from the back of your laptop ? uh project manager: oh yeah , of course , yeah . g go on ahead . marketing: user interface: so this is the technical functions design . um right to do the um the design i have i 've had a look online , i 've had a look at the homepage , which has given us um some insp inspiration from previous products . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um i 've had a look at the previous products to see what they offer and um i would like to ask you guys for um your ideas about the design at the end of the meeting . um unfortunately we 're not allowed to talk outside the meeting room , so project manager: okay . marketing: right . user interface: um , having a look at the existing products , i found out that um it tends to come in sort of two extremes , there 's either um a very complicated one that 's got lots of buttons , lots of colours , very confusing , you do n't know what you 're doing . um in that case the the labelling tends to be very bad . um there 's an example i 'll show you at the end , um sh show you now . uh project manager: alright . user interface: here um the button there and there . this one 's prog . sorry . that one 's perg and that one 's prog , and it does n't really tell you what it does . um , not sure if you had a a look at the other um control in that example . um it 's a very simple one . it 's got only the basic functions mm but um it 's the same size as the the hard to use one . project manager: oop . user interface: uh it looked a bit clunky . they 're very big and not very much use for buttons . um , and it 's just very hard to access the advanced functions . there 's there 's nothing for instance for a slow motion button . um , my own preferences , i prefer the the clunky one . um it 's very easy to use . um but unfortunately it does lack the advanced functions which i i quite like having on the controls . um so i believe the the advanced functions should maybe be hidden in a drawer , or something like tha from the bottom of it . so , now i 'd like to ask for your preferences . um not sure of how long we 've got , uh project manager: um . well we can chat away for uh for five minutes or so i think at at most . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: just a couple of minutes anyway . marketing: m yeah , like a lot of a lot of what i 've um read and prepared for this meeting fits in really closely with what with what craig 's just gone over . so in part i could i could give you some of my personal preferences but i could also th add some to this which is just about sort of um sort of market research . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: but anyway , project manager: shall we sh well we 'll stick to kind of your area for now . marketing: um we might come to that later . industrial designer: which which is the clunky one , the one on left or on the right ? . . user interface: um , the clunky one is the one on the right . industrial designer: okay . project manager: yeah . marketing: um clunky in what sense , like um h heavier ? larger ? user interface: um i think it 's supposed to be the same size , but um it 's got much fewer buttons . it 's , you know , it 's very spread out marketing: i see , so it 's more just basic . project manager: looks kind of yeah . user interface: and kind of you know marketing: right , okay . user interface: , i get the idea it 'd be sort of about this size . got very few buttons on it and marketing: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . sure . project manager: well i think it 's a valid point . i mean like the one on the left looks quite um quite complicated , and that p_r_t_ p p_r_o_t_ thing is incredibly confusing . um so i see i see why yo you know you might prefer the simpler design , but yeah you do n't want to lose out on , you know , what it does , so maybe you know marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: you know you get a lot of remote controls where you kind of flip the thing open , industrial designer: project manager: i think that 's a good idea . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think it 's a good idea . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: um , do we have any functions that um we 'd want on it ? marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i mean so far i 've got um on and off , um switch the channel up and down , and put the volume up and down . project manager: mm-hmm . uh-huh . user interface: um they 're just the the very basics you could use for a tv . project manager: uh-huh , and then actual numbers for channels as well , yeah . user interface: okay . um , you say that 's a h a required one or a requested one ? would you like marketing: which was that ? user interface: um the channels like the the numbers on thing , um marketing: up the numbers , or the up down ? project manager: god , i wou i would say that 's required , marketing: project manager: i mean there 's no way anybody 's gon na buy a remote control these days when if you ca n't actually individually select channels , marketing: yeah . project manager: i mean would anybody disagree with that ? marketing: yeah . project manager: um , what else , uh so do n't need to worry about teletext , marketing: project manager: do n't need to worry about v_c_r_ , uh any kind of like display controls at all do you think we need to worry about , marketing: we do n't ? no ? project manager: you know like brightness and contrast ? marketing: yeah . well i think i think es essentially what we 're doing right now is we 're categorising . we 're saying well we want this to be a product that offers all the sort of more tricky features but we want them to be in another area ? project manager: mm . marketing: is that right ? project manager: yeah . marketing: is that what we 're we 're doing ? user interface: um , yeah . marketing: we 're kind of like sorting them an or are we actually eliminating things we just do n't want the product to have ? user interface: um project manager: i think are you are you maybe kind of thinking what we absolutely have to have and what would be nice ? user interface: uh , to start with um sort of a bit both , um we need to find out exactly what we have to have project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um and after that we can add things if they 're possible . project manager: okay , right . well , do you wan na maybe just , at this point decide on what we absolutely must have as a p as a function of this . marketing: yeah . project manager: um , so so far , just to recap you 've got volume and channel control and marketing: yep . user interface: there 's um on and off , um volume and channel , and skip to certain channels with the numbers . project manager: right okay . um marketing: well , one one way i would look at this um would be that we a approach the different controls in terms of um like control types , so that for the user it 's very clear what they want to do where they go . project manager: mm-hmm yeah . marketing: uh and also think maybe a little bit about sorta w w what would just wan na be acc easily accessible . project manager: oka marketing: for example if we had audio controls , those could be something people set up very rarely . maybe they 're un they 're they 're they 're in a little area but covered up um , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: things like channel and volume um are used all the time , so we just have them right out on top , um very just very sort of self-explanatory . um so maybe we need to think about having three or more groupings of controls , you know like one which are just the the habitual ones that should be right within your natural grip . and others that are uh also available industrial designer: marketing: and then others that are concealed . project manager: okay . marketing: something like that . project manager: uh well , just to to wrap up quickly on this this little section have i just lost oh no . um , uh do you think maybe that 's the only kind of uh essential requirements , and then maybe just things that would be nice if it could do would be things like audio set up and display set up and things like that , maybe like a mute button , that sort of thing . any of you anything to add to that at all ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: no . project manager: no . industrial designer: i 'll add it later , i guess the presentation . project manager: okay , right . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: um okay , industrial designer: project manager: if we can move on to next presentation then please . um marketing: sure . project manager: do you wan na user interface: do you want to switch places ? marketing: can this can this pl reach ? can this plug come across ? industrial designer: no . no . project manager: probably not , actually . marketing: no . project manager: marketing: so why do n't i just pick up and move then . project manager: yeah . marketing: here , i 'll just why do n't i just user interface: just just switch them . marketing: mm er , can you go up behind me ? kinda this is so this project manager: bit complicated . it 'd be nice if everything was wireless , would n't it ? marketing: i 'm all in a knot now . industrial designer: marketing: okay . project manager: right . industrial designer: marketing: um . so i can i can say already , i dunno whether this is for good or for bad but there 'll be a lot of kind of uh redundancy in the in the the issues and the the uh the things . project manager: oh , like overlap between what you said ? marketing: yeah , yeah . project manager: oh well , for all you know that that 'll happen . marketing: which is ma not necessarily a bad thing , but may what i 've already started doing is cr i created a slide in in my presentation here so um so that we kind of think well what 's the cumulative effect of what we 've taken from your ideas and and mine , because certainly i i have a hard time separating separating things completely . project manager: mm hard to know what where your role ends , yeah . marketing: obviously obviously what you 've just told me what you 've just told me impacts a lot on what um like market research mm that that i 've been project manager: okay . marketing: so how do i how do i get this up ? industrial designer: um function f_ eight . project manager: uh pr yeah , press function and f_ eight , yeah . marketing: okay . okay . alright . so f_ eight ? industrial designer: function , the blue button . next to the control on the left . yeah . marketing: oh , and f_ eight . okay . industrial designer: you have to push it together . project manager: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yep . marketing: okay , i think that that 's doing it now . industrial designer: nope . try that again . marketing: uh , again ? industrial designer: wait . user interface: think maybe the the wire in the back might be loose . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah , you wan na oh oh here we go . marketing: um , industrial designer: yep , there we go . project manager: there you go . marketing: okay great . okay . just um before i bring this up what i 'll just say is um what i 've what i 've done is tried to collect some information so that i can then relay this to to you guys so that it 's now becomes a collective thing . and then kind of lead us in the direction of deciding , 'kay what what are our options , what should we decide and do you know what i mean , so . industrial designer: increase that 'cause we ca n't see the project manager: um marketing: okay . project manager: okay . industrial designer: that 's much better . project manager: right . can you um industrial designer: there you go . project manager: right , okay . marketing: okay . alright . that would be okay . so um does that make sense ? so what i basically got is i just looked into some information and sort of th tried to think about how how we could review it and how we could and what kind of decisions we could take away from it and then maybe by the end of just looking at some of these things we can think about what are our priorities . 'cause certainly there 's lots of different information to go through . so um i 'm thinking here about uh primarily about customer needs , that we start with the customer , and w you know , what they want and what are issues with with um existing products . uh to think about trends and also about try and connect that as you see with the company vision which is about fashion in electronics . um and then , as i say uh w we 'd like to prioritise our design features from this and um project manager: industrial designer: bouncing on top . marketing: dunno . okay . um . project manager: yeah . marketing: so this is what i 've found here , um a lot of this is new to me , so we 'll just read through together . um , users dislike the look and feel of current remote controls . so they find them ugly . most people find them ugly . um the vast majority would spend more money for it to look fancy as well , we 'll see later , the vast majority would spend more money for um slightly more intuitive control , such as voice recognition . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: okay i 'm gon na we 'll look at that in a second . um most people use only a f a very slim portion of all the controls . so i guess what we 're looking at here is people want this h technology , they tend to use the most simple controls and overall they find remote controls to be something they do n't does n't really appeal to them . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so i think what we 're doing is we 're trying to take like if for me this is sorta like three different different um inspirations , you know , one is that we want uh something that 's high-tech but we want it to seem easy . and in spite of the primitive side of it and the very high-tech side , we want it to just be an appealing piece of equipment in people 's hands . um , frustrations . they get lost a lot , s as it came up in our last meeting . um , takes time to learn how to use them . this is uh why i mention when craig was uh showing us some ideas that we actually try and group controls , so d it does n't just look like a big panel , kinda like when you you look at , you know , a new computer keyboard , or something that is quite explanatory . if you want audio , if you want visual , then you have those . um and i will admit i do n't know what r_s_i_ stands for . project manager: repetitive strain injury . industrial designer: is installing a new remote control something that people marketing: uh , no , that did not come up at all . um so here here is another um sort of a a review here of the main things . i also found that most people would uh adults at least would pay more for voice recognition . now apparently we do have access to all the tech cutting edge technology in remote control . so i dunno if that 's possible we might consider getting into it . um . and and again here as we sort of move m sort of thin start thinking about how we wan na sell and market this , i think a recurring theme here is the company wants it to be wants us to make something that 's fashionable and sleek and trendy . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um people uh additionally are n't are n't liking the appearance of their products , so we wan na think about as we take all the sort of the techie features how we can um put that into a unit which is which people like . project manager: okay . marketing: you know , they like the aesthetics and the ergonomics . project manager: so want something that looks good and is easy to use , big priorities . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: yeah , so you know just c looking at what what craig um craig 's i uh ideas are s sorta tell me that maybe what we wan na do is try and um separate the different things that we wan na include in this . so if we do say well we want there to be all the technology will we try and make that almost be like optional technology . you know , it 's like like i find a lot of tvs these days , something really like about 'em is if you wan na just turn 'em on and off you can , but they have little panels where you click and there 's just like tons of features you go through . project manager: mm . so it you wan na group all the different kind of types of functions together , you know . marketing: yeah . project manager: that 's i think it 's a good idea . marketing: yeah . that 's s that 's sort of the um but i i 'm my hope here is that i 'm putting out this information so that we can then say okay , well how do we collectively move on with it . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . marketing: um i i have n't brought out one specific marketing idea , although my sense is that what we should try and think about is what are the current trends in materials and shapes and styles , and then use that . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: but not let that confine us technologically . project manager: okay . right . marketing: so alright ? any um comments on all of that ? project manager: well , um one of the things that we have to decide on by the end of the meeting is who we 're gon na be um who 's our our target audience , our target market . marketing: that 's uh project manager: um , so if we want something that that looks good and is easy to use , but has y is fairly powerful product , whatever , who do we really want to aim that at ? marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: i mean marketing: where 's the money , maybe . project manager: yeah , who wou who would have the money to spend . well i if if like twenty five euro is our is our selling price then you can imagine , marketing: yeah . and who watches tv . mm-hmm . project manager: well i do n't i 'm not really sure how much that will retail at . marketing: mm . project manager: but you want it 's somebody who 's not gon na just use the remote that comes with their telly , i suppose , they 're gon na actually go out and buy one . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so , who do you think we 're aiming this at ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um , i think it 'll be the mid range to the high end market , in terms of people . 'cause twenty five euros for a remote , how much is that lo locally in pounds ? project manager: it 's about sixteen , seventeen pounds , i think . industrial designer: is that too is that a lot of money to buy an extra remote or a replacement remote ? project manager: yeah , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: right . project manager: okay . industrial designer: um so maybe not the high end range , but maybe middle , middle up-ish . kind of . project manager: okay . industrial designer: you know how much ? i dunno i guess you pay , what , ten ten quid for a remote ? project manager: okay . industrial designer: like a simple replacement , right . i mean if you lost your remote and the first thing you just wan na go out and get , project manager: yeah . yeah , marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: would you how much would you pay ? marketing: this this kinda touches on your comments there , david . these are the age groups which we have information on industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and these are this is a table of h what people would pay more for a certain feature . project manager: okay marketing: just gives us a rough idea of where the w the will to spend money on tv equipment is . project manager: okay . marketing: mostly focused around the twenty five age group . project manager: yeah , so do you think we 're we 're aiming at a fairly young market then ? industrial designer: yep . marketing: sort of young professional , kind of . mm-hmm project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: um project manager: um do you think then uh voice recognition is something we should really seriously consider ? what what do you think , craig ? user interface: well , did you not say it was the the adults that were going for the the voice recognition ? sort of the the older group . marketing: uh , yeah , it 's the yep . user interface: uh f marketing: it does it does fit with the market that we 're sort of identifying , project manager: n yeah . marketing: in terms of project manager: i think we are gon na have to narrow it down , to say let 's target these people and give them what they want marketing: okay . project manager: and 'cause you know , there needs to be some kind of selling point to it . marketing: yeah . sure . sure . project manager: so um anybody anything there to add marketing: yeah . project manager: just kind of young professionals , uh th like if we are going to include speech recognition , it 's kind of between fifteen and thirty five seems to be like a really high response to that . so we could say that was our target . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i i think twenty five to thirty five is is is fair to add that in as a group as well project manager: yeah . industrial designer: because that 's more than half your group of people who are willing to at least try and use your technology . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . yeah , yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . okay , so fifteen to thirty five , look fairly young . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: you know , they have bit of expendable income to spend on this sort of thing . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think perhaps that age group is significant as well because those are people who use the computer , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: who are familiar with their with computers in in their everyday work . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think people who are maybe about i would n't say thirty five , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: but people who are about forty-ish and above now would not be so dependent and reliant on a computer or a mobile phone or something like that . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . but yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah , sure . industrial designer: so these are people who are gadgety , right ? project manager: so marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: people who are u growing up used to , you know in schools and in universities , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: when you go on to their working lives , people who would you know regular project manager: yeah . so they 'll not sh not shy away from something quite high-tech . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . mm . project manager: that that 's that 's a good point . marketing: yeah . project manager: um okay , so um industrial designer: project manager: so shall we make the decision uh to include speech recognition marketing: if we can . industrial designer: i i think one thing we should try not to avoid is not to say we have to use speech recognition right now , project manager: if we can . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: because um , based on what you 've go y everybody 's saying , right , you want something simple . project manager: okay . why is that ? industrial designer: you want basic stuff and you want something that 's easy to use . speech recognition might not be the simplest thing for somebody to use . marketing: right . project manager: okay . marketing: could it be an on off thing ? industrial designer: um , marketing: like if you want it on industrial designer: but what i 'm saying is that we 're we 're trying to lock ourselves into a s particular kind of technology , project manager: where you can activate it and deactivate it ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: rather than focusing on on exactly what are the features that we 're gon na say , and then , you know , say speech recognition is good for this , speech recognition is not good for this . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: yeah . sure . industrial designer: so maybe we should marketing: sure . project manager: okay . industrial designer: i suggest that we think about speech recognition , marketing: yeah . sure . industrial designer: anyway it 's a it 's something that can be used to fulfil a function , but at end of the day we do n't look at the technology , but we look at the function first . project manager: uh-huh . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: sure . yep . project manager: uh okay , well do you wan na um give us your presentation industrial designer: okay , sure . project manager: and then then we can i do n't know marketing: yep . project manager: um might have been a good idea to all deliver our presentations and then discuss , but this is this is how we 're marketing: yeah , it 's good well it 's good to get ideas out while they 're fresh in mind . project manager: yeah , exactly , yeah . marketing: um project manager: oh it 's something that 's just occurred to me as well is if we make it um speech reco if we incorporate speech recognition , that 's appealing to people um maybe with a physical disability as well . marketing: not project manager: um . marketing: yeah . and not losing . and also it helps in terms of people not losing this , project manager: yeah . marketing: you know they they 're saying oh it 's i lose it in the couch . project manager: yeah . marketing: like we 're kind of what we 're b sort of getting in into here is mating different uh design features together project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: that they user interface: i reckon one problem with speech recognition is um i 've actually seen one of them used and uh the technology that was in that one was n't particularly amazing , so you end up yelling at the control for hours . industrial designer: project manager: really ? user interface: channel up . marketing: right . user interface: marketing: oh really , you 've seen one before . project manager: do you think maybe we need like further advances in that kind of area until it 's worthwhile incorporating it though ? user interface: um i think it 'd probably quite expensive to put in . industrial designer: sorry , do you mind passing me my notepad . project manager: mm . course not . industrial designer: thanks . cool , project manager: there you go . industrial designer: um . okay . um . project manager: right . industrial designer: well this is just the working design um . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: well this is just what how i would go about it . um i guess i try to define like what we 're doing now , try to define what we 're trying to get done . um i think in a practical way , we kind of know what it is . marketing: right . industrial designer: we 've used it , we 're familiar with it , but we 're we ca n't n we have n't narrowed down um exactly what the things we 're trying to fulfil , like besides the basics , i think back in the back of our minds we know what the basics are . has to change channels , has to change volume , but in like specifics , right , which one of the basics are you trying to target . um are there certain parts of the basics that are more important or less important than the basics ? marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and i just the idea is just to get everybody to um i usually have a have have a design that 's there as a basic , so , you know , things that to start everything going . but i guess everybody does have some idea , so i do n't think um there 's a need for that . um okay this finding things is a little bit confusing , so i 'll go into the diagram first . it just explains how the process goes through , from a project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: from the basic technology point of view , the basic steps that you need um in the diagram and in this slide probably works better . um okay , you need some power source . 'kay , a battery or something , to keep it going . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and that power source is important because it ties you down to um how long the device will last . um it ties you down perhaps a bit later on in terms of the technologies project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: um how far you can transmit the signal or the complexity of the functions that you want . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like for example , voice recognition , right . that might be constrained because that you might need to power a microphone , you might need to power other things , so that 's one perhaps constraint there . um th okay , the basic thing is there 's a user interface where people punch a button or talk into it or smile to it or blink their eyes , whatever . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: you know , and that um picks up an input from a user , um uh a logic a series of logic has to decide what the user is telling the device , and the device has to r you know , based on you push button a_ , so i will do something with button a_ . so maybe button a_ is the power button , okay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and then it needs to be able to send the signal out to the device itself which is the receiver here . um and i think that 's about it in terms of my design um . it 's fairly general , um and i guess the purpose of this is also not to restrict you in in the way you 're thinking , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like um voice recognition , right , um , if it 's something which is important then we just add more power rather than having a thing that we do n't have enough power . so it 's not really a constraint in that sense , project manager: okay . industrial designer: but i mean these are functionally , you know , the base , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: what the technology has to do . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . industrial designer: um so i guess the rest of it marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i think we should maybe you you wan na go back to what the functions are ? i think that 's more relevant to a discussion ? project manager: uh . marketing: 'kay . project manager: well , do you wan do you wan na finish up your your whole presentation then ? marketing: sure . sure . industrial designer: yeah , w i 'm done . project manager: are you are you all done ? industrial designer: more or less . yeah . ps oh , it 's just putting the rest of it into words , but it 's essentially the same thing . marketing: yep . project manager: mm . industrial designer: um you have a transmitter , an input device , logic chip , project manager: okay . industrial designer: you know , stuff like that . project manager: okay . marketing: right . industrial designer: um project manager: right . marketing: and like on the means b industrial designer: i guess this would be marketing: since we 're on the topic of the technology , uh are there any like what are our options ? industrial designer: yep . marketing: alright , what 's what i in is this the only way that we go about it , or are there other thin industrial designer: um , these these are n't technology options in that sense . this is just um marketing: right . industrial designer: a basic principles and basic components that are needed . marketing: the basic principle of project manager: okay . marketing: 'kay . industrial designer: for example , if you needed um if you needed to add uh a voice recognition , right , then your user interface would be split , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: right . industrial designer: broken down into more components , right , marketing: okay . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: which you have a microphone , the v_r_ and stuff like that . project manager: oh . so this just show how we 're kind of modularising the whole thing . marketing: okay . industrial designer: uh yep . yep . so each component represents one function , project manager: okay . industrial designer: but i think the basic functions are the logic , the transmitter , um and the receiver , okay , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and the power are things that you wo n't have to care about . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and those are things that based on what your user interface requires then we 'll add more functionality to it . project manager: yeah . mm-hmm . industrial designer: um there might be one other consideration which would be that the the transmission between the remote control and the tv for example . project manager: okay . industrial designer: okay , um are we gon na restrict ourselves to using the traditional technologies of infra-red thing ? project manager: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . industrial designer: because that 's something you need to actually be physically be pointing to . right . project manager: okay . marketing: right . project manager: well well a worry that was was expressed in the new requirements was that if we made this too complex it would e it would effect um how long how long it took us to get this to market , so i th suspect it might be a good idea just to restrict our kind of our creative influence on this on the user interface and not worry so much about uh how we transmit it industrial designer: yep . project manager: um because i mean it it 's tried and tested intra-red , so we could stay with tha industrial designer: there might be one other problem with the transmission , um in particular right now , since we 're talking about voice recognition . um if somebody 's gon na h talk to the device , you ideally want them to hold it to them . project manager: mm-hmm industrial designer: i it project manager: oh , yeah . industrial designer: you may not require that , marketing: right . industrial designer: but you know , um it 's it 's marketing: right . industrial designer: it 's something very natural , i guess , you know , to hold it , to signal to the user , project manager: yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: and push a button maybe to start s talking about it . project manager: okay . industrial designer: then you need to send the signal out , so because if you 're using infra-red , the line of sight um say the tv 's at that chair , and i 'm standing in front of here and the transmitter is here , it blocks it . project manager: mm . mm . yeah . industrial designer: so in that sense , there 's not really a restriction project manager: okay . industrial designer: but it 's something which you may have to think about later on in the process . marketing: right . industrial designer: not so much further down . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . marketing: and um just a clarification before we finish this . uh does c is our controller is it have the option of being um on a standard uh frequency as all of the other equipment , so that the one controller can control several pieces of equipment ? industrial designer: there 's there 's not much specific specific information , project manager: w industrial designer: but i think that um one indication of infra-red mean that you 're just targeting traditional devices . because infra-red is something which everybody has . project manager: yeah . w well well we 've um marketing: okay . project manager: in the new requirement spec they said just to focus on the tv , industrial designer: marketing: just to tv , okay . project manager: so that 's what we should do for now i think . something i was wondering about was the power . marketing: okay . project manager: um , is it worth considering like having like a charging unit as opposed to just regular batteries ? i mean is that something we really want to go into , do you think , industrial designer: there 's a there 's project manager: or should we just consider running on regular batteries ? industrial designer: okay , from from a from a component point of view there 's added complexity , and you add cost to it , project manager: uh-huh . uh-huh . industrial designer: um and then there 's probably the fact that you need another physical component . you need a docking cradle , for example , for you to put it in to charge . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: or you need to get the user to plug it in . project manager: okay . marketing: project manager: okay , industrial designer: um and most users are very f use already used to the idea of buying batteries and putting it into the controller . project manager: so yeah . industrial designer: but unless the controller 's gon na consume a lot of batteries , like he 's gon na run through like twenty batteries a month , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: then i do n't think rechargeable is something we should you know , we really need to care about . project manager: okay , so just stick to to regular marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um . project manager: okay . um , right . so basically the um i 'm just gon na just recap uh what i said at the start , was that um the the whole point of this meeting was to f absolutely finalise who we 're gon na aim this at , industrial designer: project manager: and what exactly the product 's gon na do . marketing: okay . project manager: so um just to recap on marketing: okay . project manager: are we all happy about the idea of um aiming the product at um the fifteen to thirty five bracket ? um and also the funct the the actual functions of what it 's gon na do . marketing: yeah , that 's good . project manager: do you wan na recap on that , craig ? user interface: um . project manager: user interface: i think we just say that it was gon na be the the most basic stuff possible . um on off , up and down channels , up and down volume and uh skip to a channel . project manager: okay , right . user interface: ta . marketing: and is it going to include any of the uh the more advanced features , or are we gon na eliminate those ? user interface: um i think we include mute , but apart from that um i think we just we 'll go for the simpleness . industrial designer: okay , i think project manager: okay . marketing: okay . r is it is it is it s is it not an option still that we include some things just as a sort of under like sort of under a door or some project manager: yeah , it 's as optional functions . user interface: yeah . marketing: 'cause what what i 'm i 'd be a bit worried about is if someone was h had previously developed habits of expecting to control surround sound or this and that with their controller and then and then they , you know , w they get ours and w it 's does n't have that . project manager: okay . marketing: i dunno if that 'd be a problem . industrial designer: another thing that you were saying about categorising the controls ? um maybe i could suggest we we break them down into three simple categories . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: one would be audio controls , marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: one would be video controls , and the other one would be a device . marketing: okay . industrial designer: um this may not map very well to advanced functionality especially , but i think that um from a manufacturer 's point of view , from a person designing the device , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but i think from a point of view of a person using the device , you know a tv is something they see and something they hear , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um it 's something they do other things to like turn it on and turn it off . i mean like so what we could have is like three buckets , right , where we could throw things into , project manager: yeah . marketing: right . project manager: industrial designer: like if we want this feature , let 's throw it into there , and then from there decide whether it 's basic , or it 's non-basic . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i mean it might help with the visualisation . marketing: 'kay , okay . like that . okay . industrial designer: and it would actually help with the component build as well . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , right . marketing: mm okay , great . project manager: um , okay well i got ta kind of got five minutes to wrap up now . um next thing we 're doing is having lunch . whoohoo . um and then we 're gon na have thirty minutes of working on the next stage . um so i 'll be putting the minutes of this uh this meeting into the project documents folder . um so uh i guess just to just to confirm that we know what we 're doing in the next well in the thirty minutes after lunch anyway , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: project manager: um for uh our industrial designer , you 're gon na be thinking about the components concept . um user interface designer gon na be thinking about our user interface , and marketing you 're gon na be thinking about trend watching . um and you 'll all get specific instructions as well . so um i dunno , just just to to ask now if you 've got anything else you 've thought about while we 've been talking . marketing: project manager: um , do you wan na start with david . anything else to say at all ? industrial designer: mm no , not really . project manager: no , okay . andrew ? marketing: um yeah , just i just wanted to ask then before we wrap up , shall we agree for sake of um sort of clarity and when we when we r resume that we 'll u use this idea david 's proposed , where we think of these three sort of buckets and anything anything we discuss about them is sort of , okay , we 're talking about this . project manager: yeah , yeah i think that 's definitely a good idea . industrial designer: mm . project manager: uh-huh . marketing: shall we do that , then ? project manager: yeah . marketing: okay , great . user interface: um just about the three buckets , um what would go in the the device functions one ? industrial designer: um things like on off . because they do n't have anything to do with what you see . i me mean in terms of picture and the entertainment value , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: you know , um so um project manager: okay . user interface: um marketing: and and channel . industrial designer: and channel . because the on off also goes , you know , like on off like power , not on off sound . marketing: right . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: not on off video . although you do n't turn off the video on your tv , but um you might wan na you know turn off the sound , project manager: okay . industrial designer: say you wan na pick up the phone , there 's a mute button , right , so you you have you have a choice of putting it on to um others or a device . project manager: okay . industrial designer: device is basically anything which we ca n't categorise , right . we put it out . project manager: okay , so you 're gon na have um audio which is gon na be like you know your bass settings and actual volume hi marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , anything to do with what you hear , right . you you put that into audio . project manager: okay . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then video is anything that you can see . project manager: okay , and then visual marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , so brightness , contrast , things like that , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um . yep . project manager: and then just actual device things , marketing: colour , yeah . industrial designer: yep . project manager: like what channel you 're watching , turning on an off , marketing: sure . sure . industrial designer: yep . project manager: stuff like that . marketing: okay . project manager: okay , um marketing: and then k i suppose quite likely what would happen is in the d device category there might be some which are just like the habitual standard and then others which are maybe a bit more industrial designer: like random which we have no other place to put , but we need it somewhere there . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . sure , okay . okay . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um even even if it does n't map very clearly what happens is that people at least have some in their mind . project manager: okay . industrial designer: it 's easy to use , i think that 's one thing that um and i guess from the component point of view it 's easy to build as well project manager: okay . industrial designer: 'cause things are like fixed . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: um so yeah , i guess just things to think about are you know like the fact it 's got ta look good , industrial designer: project manager: because of who we 're we 're , you know , targeting this at . um something maybe kind of quirky in design maybe . make it kind of ergonomic kind of to hold , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: you know , things like that . um , so i guess i guess that 's it . that 's the meeting over . marketing: great . project manager: whoohoo . marketing: then we get to go find out what was picked up for lunch for us . user interface: { vocalsound }

project manager asked if people would think that installing a new remote was a technology innovation . marketing was against it and recommended the voice recognition technology because marketing found the recurring theme was fashionable and trendy .

what 's the conclusion on the age group when discussing the target group and why ? </s> project manager: is that alright now ? okay . sorry ? okay , everybody all set to start the meeting ? okay , we 've got half an hour for this one um to uh discuss the um functional design . marketing: could you plug me in ? user interface: marketing: okay . thanks . project manager: all ready to go ? okay . marketing: okay . project manager: um so hopefully you 've all been working away , and i 've put the minutes of the last meeting in the project folder . um so i guess just to to recap on uh what we did last time . um kind of uh got to know each other a little bit and uh got familiar with all the equipment and started to discuss um a bit about the project , you know , cost-wise how much how much money we had to s um just want to tell you that you have three new requirements , which is the the first one is that um uh the company 's decided that teletext is outdated uh because of how popular the internet is . nobody uses teletext very much anymore , so we do n't really need to consider that in the functionality of the of the remote control . marketing: 'kay . project manager: um they 've also suggested that we um we only use the remote control to control the television , not the v_c_r_ , d_v_d_ or anything else . i think the worry is that if the project becomes too complex then it 'll affect um how long it takes us to get it into into production , the time to market . so um , we 're just gon na keep it simple and it 'll just control the tv . marketing: okay . project manager: and the other thing was that the company want the corporate colour and slogan to be implemented in the new design . um i 'm not entirely sure what the corporate colour is . it might be yellow , because there seems to be a lot of yellow everywhere . marketing: and the slogan , like the actual written slogan , or just to embody the idea of the slogan ? project manager: well that 's the thing , i 'm i 'm not sure um uh th because on the the company website , uh what does it say uh something marketing: 'bout putting the fashion in electronics . industrial designer: mm yeah . project manager: yeah , i mean do they is that something they want actually written on it , 'cause it 's quite long . um or yeah , just the idea , but i 'm not sure . so that 's something we can discuss as well . so those are the three things , just not to worry about teletext , uh only control the tv , and um and uh incorporate the uh colour and slogan of the company . um so is everybody okay with any of that , or do you want me to recap at all ? industrial designer: nope , we 're all set . project manager: right um , time for presentations then . who would like to go first ? user interface: i 'll go first . project manager: okay , cool . marketing: sure . user interface: alright um , can i st steal this from the back of your laptop ? uh project manager: oh yeah , of course , yeah . g go on ahead . marketing: user interface: so this is the technical functions design . um right to do the um the design i have i 've had a look online , i 've had a look at the homepage , which has given us um some insp inspiration from previous products . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um i 've had a look at the previous products to see what they offer and um i would like to ask you guys for um your ideas about the design at the end of the meeting . um unfortunately we 're not allowed to talk outside the meeting room , so project manager: okay . marketing: right . user interface: um , having a look at the existing products , i found out that um it tends to come in sort of two extremes , there 's either um a very complicated one that 's got lots of buttons , lots of colours , very confusing , you do n't know what you 're doing . um in that case the the labelling tends to be very bad . um there 's an example i 'll show you at the end , um sh show you now . uh project manager: alright . user interface: here um the button there and there . this one 's prog . sorry . that one 's perg and that one 's prog , and it does n't really tell you what it does . um , not sure if you had a a look at the other um control in that example . um it 's a very simple one . it 's got only the basic functions mm but um it 's the same size as the the hard to use one . project manager: oop . user interface: uh it looked a bit clunky . they 're very big and not very much use for buttons . um , and it 's just very hard to access the advanced functions . there 's there 's nothing for instance for a slow motion button . um , my own preferences , i prefer the the clunky one . um it 's very easy to use . um but unfortunately it does lack the advanced functions which i i quite like having on the controls . um so i believe the the advanced functions should maybe be hidden in a drawer , or something like tha from the bottom of it . so , now i 'd like to ask for your preferences . um not sure of how long we 've got , uh project manager: um . well we can chat away for uh for five minutes or so i think at at most . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: just a couple of minutes anyway . marketing: m yeah , like a lot of a lot of what i 've um read and prepared for this meeting fits in really closely with what with what craig 's just gone over . so in part i could i could give you some of my personal preferences but i could also th add some to this which is just about sort of um sort of market research . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: but anyway , project manager: shall we sh well we 'll stick to kind of your area for now . marketing: um we might come to that later . industrial designer: which which is the clunky one , the one on left or on the right ? . . user interface: um , the clunky one is the one on the right . industrial designer: okay . project manager: yeah . marketing: um clunky in what sense , like um h heavier ? larger ? user interface: um i think it 's supposed to be the same size , but um it 's got much fewer buttons . it 's , you know , it 's very spread out marketing: i see , so it 's more just basic . project manager: looks kind of yeah . user interface: and kind of you know marketing: right , okay . user interface: , i get the idea it 'd be sort of about this size . got very few buttons on it and marketing: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . sure . project manager: well i think it 's a valid point . i mean like the one on the left looks quite um quite complicated , and that p_r_t_ p p_r_o_t_ thing is incredibly confusing . um so i see i see why yo you know you might prefer the simpler design , but yeah you do n't want to lose out on , you know , what it does , so maybe you know marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: you know you get a lot of remote controls where you kind of flip the thing open , industrial designer: project manager: i think that 's a good idea . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think it 's a good idea . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: um , do we have any functions that um we 'd want on it ? marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i mean so far i 've got um on and off , um switch the channel up and down , and put the volume up and down . project manager: mm-hmm . uh-huh . user interface: um they 're just the the very basics you could use for a tv . project manager: uh-huh , and then actual numbers for channels as well , yeah . user interface: okay . um , you say that 's a h a required one or a requested one ? would you like marketing: which was that ? user interface: um the channels like the the numbers on thing , um marketing: up the numbers , or the up down ? project manager: god , i wou i would say that 's required , marketing: project manager: i mean there 's no way anybody 's gon na buy a remote control these days when if you ca n't actually individually select channels , marketing: yeah . project manager: i mean would anybody disagree with that ? marketing: yeah . project manager: um , what else , uh so do n't need to worry about teletext , marketing: project manager: do n't need to worry about v_c_r_ , uh any kind of like display controls at all do you think we need to worry about , marketing: we do n't ? no ? project manager: you know like brightness and contrast ? marketing: yeah . well i think i think es essentially what we 're doing right now is we 're categorising . we 're saying well we want this to be a product that offers all the sort of more tricky features but we want them to be in another area ? project manager: mm . marketing: is that right ? project manager: yeah . marketing: is that what we 're we 're doing ? user interface: um , yeah . marketing: we 're kind of like sorting them an or are we actually eliminating things we just do n't want the product to have ? user interface: um project manager: i think are you are you maybe kind of thinking what we absolutely have to have and what would be nice ? user interface: uh , to start with um sort of a bit both , um we need to find out exactly what we have to have project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um and after that we can add things if they 're possible . project manager: okay , right . well , do you wan na maybe just , at this point decide on what we absolutely must have as a p as a function of this . marketing: yeah . project manager: um , so so far , just to recap you 've got volume and channel control and marketing: yep . user interface: there 's um on and off , um volume and channel , and skip to certain channels with the numbers . project manager: right okay . um marketing: well , one one way i would look at this um would be that we a approach the different controls in terms of um like control types , so that for the user it 's very clear what they want to do where they go . project manager: mm-hmm yeah . marketing: uh and also think maybe a little bit about sorta w w what would just wan na be acc easily accessible . project manager: oka marketing: for example if we had audio controls , those could be something people set up very rarely . maybe they 're un they 're they 're they 're in a little area but covered up um , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: things like channel and volume um are used all the time , so we just have them right out on top , um very just very sort of self-explanatory . um so maybe we need to think about having three or more groupings of controls , you know like one which are just the the habitual ones that should be right within your natural grip . and others that are uh also available industrial designer: marketing: and then others that are concealed . project manager: okay . marketing: something like that . project manager: uh well , just to to wrap up quickly on this this little section have i just lost oh no . um , uh do you think maybe that 's the only kind of uh essential requirements , and then maybe just things that would be nice if it could do would be things like audio set up and display set up and things like that , maybe like a mute button , that sort of thing . any of you anything to add to that at all ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: no . project manager: no . industrial designer: i 'll add it later , i guess the presentation . project manager: okay , right . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: um okay , industrial designer: project manager: if we can move on to next presentation then please . um marketing: sure . project manager: do you wan na user interface: do you want to switch places ? marketing: can this can this pl reach ? can this plug come across ? industrial designer: no . no . project manager: probably not , actually . marketing: no . project manager: marketing: so why do n't i just pick up and move then . project manager: yeah . marketing: here , i 'll just why do n't i just user interface: just just switch them . marketing: mm er , can you go up behind me ? kinda this is so this project manager: bit complicated . it 'd be nice if everything was wireless , would n't it ? marketing: i 'm all in a knot now . industrial designer: marketing: okay . project manager: right . industrial designer: marketing: um . so i can i can say already , i dunno whether this is for good or for bad but there 'll be a lot of kind of uh redundancy in the in the the issues and the the uh the things . project manager: oh , like overlap between what you said ? marketing: yeah , yeah . project manager: oh well , for all you know that that 'll happen . marketing: which is ma not necessarily a bad thing , but may what i 've already started doing is cr i created a slide in in my presentation here so um so that we kind of think well what 's the cumulative effect of what we 've taken from your ideas and and mine , because certainly i i have a hard time separating separating things completely . project manager: mm hard to know what where your role ends , yeah . marketing: obviously obviously what you 've just told me what you 've just told me impacts a lot on what um like market research mm that that i 've been project manager: okay . marketing: so how do i how do i get this up ? industrial designer: um function f_ eight . project manager: uh pr yeah , press function and f_ eight , yeah . marketing: okay . okay . alright . so f_ eight ? industrial designer: function , the blue button . next to the control on the left . yeah . marketing: oh , and f_ eight . okay . industrial designer: you have to push it together . project manager: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yep . marketing: okay , i think that that 's doing it now . industrial designer: nope . try that again . marketing: uh , again ? industrial designer: wait . user interface: think maybe the the wire in the back might be loose . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah , you wan na oh oh here we go . marketing: um , industrial designer: yep , there we go . project manager: there you go . marketing: okay great . okay . just um before i bring this up what i 'll just say is um what i 've what i 've done is tried to collect some information so that i can then relay this to to you guys so that it 's now becomes a collective thing . and then kind of lead us in the direction of deciding , 'kay what what are our options , what should we decide and do you know what i mean , so . industrial designer: increase that 'cause we ca n't see the project manager: um marketing: okay . project manager: okay . industrial designer: that 's much better . project manager: right . can you um industrial designer: there you go . project manager: right , okay . marketing: okay . alright . that would be okay . so um does that make sense ? so what i basically got is i just looked into some information and sort of th tried to think about how how we could review it and how we could and what kind of decisions we could take away from it and then maybe by the end of just looking at some of these things we can think about what are our priorities . 'cause certainly there 's lots of different information to go through . so um i 'm thinking here about uh primarily about customer needs , that we start with the customer , and w you know , what they want and what are issues with with um existing products . uh to think about trends and also about try and connect that as you see with the company vision which is about fashion in electronics . um and then , as i say uh w we 'd like to prioritise our design features from this and um project manager: industrial designer: bouncing on top . marketing: dunno . okay . um . project manager: yeah . marketing: so this is what i 've found here , um a lot of this is new to me , so we 'll just read through together . um , users dislike the look and feel of current remote controls . so they find them ugly . most people find them ugly . um the vast majority would spend more money for it to look fancy as well , we 'll see later , the vast majority would spend more money for um slightly more intuitive control , such as voice recognition . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: okay i 'm gon na we 'll look at that in a second . um most people use only a f a very slim portion of all the controls . so i guess what we 're looking at here is people want this h technology , they tend to use the most simple controls and overall they find remote controls to be something they do n't does n't really appeal to them . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so i think what we 're doing is we 're trying to take like if for me this is sorta like three different different um inspirations , you know , one is that we want uh something that 's high-tech but we want it to seem easy . and in spite of the primitive side of it and the very high-tech side , we want it to just be an appealing piece of equipment in people 's hands . um , frustrations . they get lost a lot , s as it came up in our last meeting . um , takes time to learn how to use them . this is uh why i mention when craig was uh showing us some ideas that we actually try and group controls , so d it does n't just look like a big panel , kinda like when you you look at , you know , a new computer keyboard , or something that is quite explanatory . if you want audio , if you want visual , then you have those . um and i will admit i do n't know what r_s_i_ stands for . project manager: repetitive strain injury . industrial designer: is installing a new remote control something that people marketing: uh , no , that did not come up at all . um so here here is another um sort of a a review here of the main things . i also found that most people would uh adults at least would pay more for voice recognition . now apparently we do have access to all the tech cutting edge technology in remote control . so i dunno if that 's possible we might consider getting into it . um . and and again here as we sort of move m sort of thin start thinking about how we wan na sell and market this , i think a recurring theme here is the company wants it to be wants us to make something that 's fashionable and sleek and trendy . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um people uh additionally are n't are n't liking the appearance of their products , so we wan na think about as we take all the sort of the techie features how we can um put that into a unit which is which people like . project manager: okay . marketing: you know , they like the aesthetics and the ergonomics . project manager: so want something that looks good and is easy to use , big priorities . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: yeah , so you know just c looking at what what craig um craig 's i uh ideas are s sorta tell me that maybe what we wan na do is try and um separate the different things that we wan na include in this . so if we do say well we want there to be all the technology will we try and make that almost be like optional technology . you know , it 's like like i find a lot of tvs these days , something really like about 'em is if you wan na just turn 'em on and off you can , but they have little panels where you click and there 's just like tons of features you go through . project manager: mm . so it you wan na group all the different kind of types of functions together , you know . marketing: yeah . project manager: that 's i think it 's a good idea . marketing: yeah . that 's s that 's sort of the um but i i 'm my hope here is that i 'm putting out this information so that we can then say okay , well how do we collectively move on with it . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . marketing: um i i have n't brought out one specific marketing idea , although my sense is that what we should try and think about is what are the current trends in materials and shapes and styles , and then use that . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: but not let that confine us technologically . project manager: okay . right . marketing: so alright ? any um comments on all of that ? project manager: well , um one of the things that we have to decide on by the end of the meeting is who we 're gon na be um who 's our our target audience , our target market . marketing: that 's uh project manager: um , so if we want something that that looks good and is easy to use , but has y is fairly powerful product , whatever , who do we really want to aim that at ? marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: i mean marketing: where 's the money , maybe . project manager: yeah , who wou who would have the money to spend . well i if if like twenty five euro is our is our selling price then you can imagine , marketing: yeah . and who watches tv . mm-hmm . project manager: well i do n't i 'm not really sure how much that will retail at . marketing: mm . project manager: but you want it 's somebody who 's not gon na just use the remote that comes with their telly , i suppose , they 're gon na actually go out and buy one . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so , who do you think we 're aiming this at ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um , i think it 'll be the mid range to the high end market , in terms of people . 'cause twenty five euros for a remote , how much is that lo locally in pounds ? project manager: it 's about sixteen , seventeen pounds , i think . industrial designer: is that too is that a lot of money to buy an extra remote or a replacement remote ? project manager: yeah , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: right . project manager: okay . industrial designer: um so maybe not the high end range , but maybe middle , middle up-ish . kind of . project manager: okay . industrial designer: you know how much ? i dunno i guess you pay , what , ten ten quid for a remote ? project manager: okay . industrial designer: like a simple replacement , right . i mean if you lost your remote and the first thing you just wan na go out and get , project manager: yeah . yeah , marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: would you how much would you pay ? marketing: this this kinda touches on your comments there , david . these are the age groups which we have information on industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and these are this is a table of h what people would pay more for a certain feature . project manager: okay marketing: just gives us a rough idea of where the w the will to spend money on tv equipment is . project manager: okay . marketing: mostly focused around the twenty five age group . project manager: yeah , so do you think we 're we 're aiming at a fairly young market then ? industrial designer: yep . marketing: sort of young professional , kind of . mm-hmm project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: um project manager: um do you think then uh voice recognition is something we should really seriously consider ? what what do you think , craig ? user interface: well , did you not say it was the the adults that were going for the the voice recognition ? sort of the the older group . marketing: uh , yeah , it 's the yep . user interface: uh f marketing: it does it does fit with the market that we 're sort of identifying , project manager: n yeah . marketing: in terms of project manager: i think we are gon na have to narrow it down , to say let 's target these people and give them what they want marketing: okay . project manager: and 'cause you know , there needs to be some kind of selling point to it . marketing: yeah . sure . sure . project manager: so um anybody anything there to add marketing: yeah . project manager: just kind of young professionals , uh th like if we are going to include speech recognition , it 's kind of between fifteen and thirty five seems to be like a really high response to that . so we could say that was our target . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i i think twenty five to thirty five is is is fair to add that in as a group as well project manager: yeah . industrial designer: because that 's more than half your group of people who are willing to at least try and use your technology . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . yeah , yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . okay , so fifteen to thirty five , look fairly young . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: you know , they have bit of expendable income to spend on this sort of thing . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think perhaps that age group is significant as well because those are people who use the computer , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: who are familiar with their with computers in in their everyday work . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think people who are maybe about i would n't say thirty five , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: but people who are about forty-ish and above now would not be so dependent and reliant on a computer or a mobile phone or something like that . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . but yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah , sure . industrial designer: so these are people who are gadgety , right ? project manager: so marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: people who are u growing up used to , you know in schools and in universities , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: when you go on to their working lives , people who would you know regular project manager: yeah . so they 'll not sh not shy away from something quite high-tech . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . mm . project manager: that that 's that 's a good point . marketing: yeah . project manager: um okay , so um industrial designer: project manager: so shall we make the decision uh to include speech recognition marketing: if we can . industrial designer: i i think one thing we should try not to avoid is not to say we have to use speech recognition right now , project manager: if we can . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: because um , based on what you 've go y everybody 's saying , right , you want something simple . project manager: okay . why is that ? industrial designer: you want basic stuff and you want something that 's easy to use . speech recognition might not be the simplest thing for somebody to use . marketing: right . project manager: okay . marketing: could it be an on off thing ? industrial designer: um , marketing: like if you want it on industrial designer: but what i 'm saying is that we 're we 're trying to lock ourselves into a s particular kind of technology , project manager: where you can activate it and deactivate it ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: rather than focusing on on exactly what are the features that we 're gon na say , and then , you know , say speech recognition is good for this , speech recognition is not good for this . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: yeah . sure . industrial designer: so maybe we should marketing: sure . project manager: okay . industrial designer: i suggest that we think about speech recognition , marketing: yeah . sure . industrial designer: anyway it 's a it 's something that can be used to fulfil a function , but at end of the day we do n't look at the technology , but we look at the function first . project manager: uh-huh . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: sure . yep . project manager: uh okay , well do you wan na um give us your presentation industrial designer: okay , sure . project manager: and then then we can i do n't know marketing: yep . project manager: um might have been a good idea to all deliver our presentations and then discuss , but this is this is how we 're marketing: yeah , it 's good well it 's good to get ideas out while they 're fresh in mind . project manager: yeah , exactly , yeah . marketing: um project manager: oh it 's something that 's just occurred to me as well is if we make it um speech reco if we incorporate speech recognition , that 's appealing to people um maybe with a physical disability as well . marketing: not project manager: um . marketing: yeah . and not losing . and also it helps in terms of people not losing this , project manager: yeah . marketing: you know they they 're saying oh it 's i lose it in the couch . project manager: yeah . marketing: like we 're kind of what we 're b sort of getting in into here is mating different uh design features together project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: that they user interface: i reckon one problem with speech recognition is um i 've actually seen one of them used and uh the technology that was in that one was n't particularly amazing , so you end up yelling at the control for hours . industrial designer: project manager: really ? user interface: channel up . marketing: right . user interface: marketing: oh really , you 've seen one before . project manager: do you think maybe we need like further advances in that kind of area until it 's worthwhile incorporating it though ? user interface: um i think it 'd probably quite expensive to put in . industrial designer: sorry , do you mind passing me my notepad . project manager: mm . course not . industrial designer: thanks . cool , project manager: there you go . industrial designer: um . okay . um . project manager: right . industrial designer: well this is just the working design um . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: well this is just what how i would go about it . um i guess i try to define like what we 're doing now , try to define what we 're trying to get done . um i think in a practical way , we kind of know what it is . marketing: right . industrial designer: we 've used it , we 're familiar with it , but we 're we ca n't n we have n't narrowed down um exactly what the things we 're trying to fulfil , like besides the basics , i think back in the back of our minds we know what the basics are . has to change channels , has to change volume , but in like specifics , right , which one of the basics are you trying to target . um are there certain parts of the basics that are more important or less important than the basics ? marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and i just the idea is just to get everybody to um i usually have a have have a design that 's there as a basic , so , you know , things that to start everything going . but i guess everybody does have some idea , so i do n't think um there 's a need for that . um okay this finding things is a little bit confusing , so i 'll go into the diagram first . it just explains how the process goes through , from a project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: from the basic technology point of view , the basic steps that you need um in the diagram and in this slide probably works better . um okay , you need some power source . 'kay , a battery or something , to keep it going . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and that power source is important because it ties you down to um how long the device will last . um it ties you down perhaps a bit later on in terms of the technologies project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: um how far you can transmit the signal or the complexity of the functions that you want . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like for example , voice recognition , right . that might be constrained because that you might need to power a microphone , you might need to power other things , so that 's one perhaps constraint there . um th okay , the basic thing is there 's a user interface where people punch a button or talk into it or smile to it or blink their eyes , whatever . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: you know , and that um picks up an input from a user , um uh a logic a series of logic has to decide what the user is telling the device , and the device has to r you know , based on you push button a_ , so i will do something with button a_ . so maybe button a_ is the power button , okay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and then it needs to be able to send the signal out to the device itself which is the receiver here . um and i think that 's about it in terms of my design um . it 's fairly general , um and i guess the purpose of this is also not to restrict you in in the way you 're thinking , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like um voice recognition , right , um , if it 's something which is important then we just add more power rather than having a thing that we do n't have enough power . so it 's not really a constraint in that sense , project manager: okay . industrial designer: but i mean these are functionally , you know , the base , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: what the technology has to do . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . industrial designer: um so i guess the rest of it marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i think we should maybe you you wan na go back to what the functions are ? i think that 's more relevant to a discussion ? project manager: uh . marketing: 'kay . project manager: well , do you wan do you wan na finish up your your whole presentation then ? marketing: sure . sure . industrial designer: yeah , w i 'm done . project manager: are you are you all done ? industrial designer: more or less . yeah . ps oh , it 's just putting the rest of it into words , but it 's essentially the same thing . marketing: yep . project manager: mm . industrial designer: um you have a transmitter , an input device , logic chip , project manager: okay . industrial designer: you know , stuff like that . project manager: okay . marketing: right . industrial designer: um project manager: right . marketing: and like on the means b industrial designer: i guess this would be marketing: since we 're on the topic of the technology , uh are there any like what are our options ? industrial designer: yep . marketing: alright , what 's what i in is this the only way that we go about it , or are there other thin industrial designer: um , these these are n't technology options in that sense . this is just um marketing: right . industrial designer: a basic principles and basic components that are needed . marketing: the basic principle of project manager: okay . marketing: 'kay . industrial designer: for example , if you needed um if you needed to add uh a voice recognition , right , then your user interface would be split , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: right . industrial designer: broken down into more components , right , marketing: okay . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: which you have a microphone , the v_r_ and stuff like that . project manager: oh . so this just show how we 're kind of modularising the whole thing . marketing: okay . industrial designer: uh yep . yep . so each component represents one function , project manager: okay . industrial designer: but i think the basic functions are the logic , the transmitter , um and the receiver , okay , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and the power are things that you wo n't have to care about . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and those are things that based on what your user interface requires then we 'll add more functionality to it . project manager: yeah . mm-hmm . industrial designer: um there might be one other consideration which would be that the the transmission between the remote control and the tv for example . project manager: okay . industrial designer: okay , um are we gon na restrict ourselves to using the traditional technologies of infra-red thing ? project manager: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . industrial designer: because that 's something you need to actually be physically be pointing to . right . project manager: okay . marketing: right . project manager: well well a worry that was was expressed in the new requirements was that if we made this too complex it would e it would effect um how long how long it took us to get this to market , so i th suspect it might be a good idea just to restrict our kind of our creative influence on this on the user interface and not worry so much about uh how we transmit it industrial designer: yep . project manager: um because i mean it it 's tried and tested intra-red , so we could stay with tha industrial designer: there might be one other problem with the transmission , um in particular right now , since we 're talking about voice recognition . um if somebody 's gon na h talk to the device , you ideally want them to hold it to them . project manager: mm-hmm industrial designer: i it project manager: oh , yeah . industrial designer: you may not require that , marketing: right . industrial designer: but you know , um it 's it 's marketing: right . industrial designer: it 's something very natural , i guess , you know , to hold it , to signal to the user , project manager: yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: and push a button maybe to start s talking about it . project manager: okay . industrial designer: then you need to send the signal out , so because if you 're using infra-red , the line of sight um say the tv 's at that chair , and i 'm standing in front of here and the transmitter is here , it blocks it . project manager: mm . mm . yeah . industrial designer: so in that sense , there 's not really a restriction project manager: okay . industrial designer: but it 's something which you may have to think about later on in the process . marketing: right . industrial designer: not so much further down . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . marketing: and um just a clarification before we finish this . uh does c is our controller is it have the option of being um on a standard uh frequency as all of the other equipment , so that the one controller can control several pieces of equipment ? industrial designer: there 's there 's not much specific specific information , project manager: w industrial designer: but i think that um one indication of infra-red mean that you 're just targeting traditional devices . because infra-red is something which everybody has . project manager: yeah . w well well we 've um marketing: okay . project manager: in the new requirement spec they said just to focus on the tv , industrial designer: marketing: just to tv , okay . project manager: so that 's what we should do for now i think . something i was wondering about was the power . marketing: okay . project manager: um , is it worth considering like having like a charging unit as opposed to just regular batteries ? i mean is that something we really want to go into , do you think , industrial designer: there 's a there 's project manager: or should we just consider running on regular batteries ? industrial designer: okay , from from a from a component point of view there 's added complexity , and you add cost to it , project manager: uh-huh . uh-huh . industrial designer: um and then there 's probably the fact that you need another physical component . you need a docking cradle , for example , for you to put it in to charge . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: or you need to get the user to plug it in . project manager: okay . marketing: project manager: okay , industrial designer: um and most users are very f use already used to the idea of buying batteries and putting it into the controller . project manager: so yeah . industrial designer: but unless the controller 's gon na consume a lot of batteries , like he 's gon na run through like twenty batteries a month , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: then i do n't think rechargeable is something we should you know , we really need to care about . project manager: okay , so just stick to to regular marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um . project manager: okay . um , right . so basically the um i 'm just gon na just recap uh what i said at the start , was that um the the whole point of this meeting was to f absolutely finalise who we 're gon na aim this at , industrial designer: project manager: and what exactly the product 's gon na do . marketing: okay . project manager: so um just to recap on marketing: okay . project manager: are we all happy about the idea of um aiming the product at um the fifteen to thirty five bracket ? um and also the funct the the actual functions of what it 's gon na do . marketing: yeah , that 's good . project manager: do you wan na recap on that , craig ? user interface: um . project manager: user interface: i think we just say that it was gon na be the the most basic stuff possible . um on off , up and down channels , up and down volume and uh skip to a channel . project manager: okay , right . user interface: ta . marketing: and is it going to include any of the uh the more advanced features , or are we gon na eliminate those ? user interface: um i think we include mute , but apart from that um i think we just we 'll go for the simpleness . industrial designer: okay , i think project manager: okay . marketing: okay . r is it is it is it s is it not an option still that we include some things just as a sort of under like sort of under a door or some project manager: yeah , it 's as optional functions . user interface: yeah . marketing: 'cause what what i 'm i 'd be a bit worried about is if someone was h had previously developed habits of expecting to control surround sound or this and that with their controller and then and then they , you know , w they get ours and w it 's does n't have that . project manager: okay . marketing: i dunno if that 'd be a problem . industrial designer: another thing that you were saying about categorising the controls ? um maybe i could suggest we we break them down into three simple categories . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: one would be audio controls , marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: one would be video controls , and the other one would be a device . marketing: okay . industrial designer: um this may not map very well to advanced functionality especially , but i think that um from a manufacturer 's point of view , from a person designing the device , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but i think from a point of view of a person using the device , you know a tv is something they see and something they hear , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um it 's something they do other things to like turn it on and turn it off . i mean like so what we could have is like three buckets , right , where we could throw things into , project manager: yeah . marketing: right . project manager: industrial designer: like if we want this feature , let 's throw it into there , and then from there decide whether it 's basic , or it 's non-basic . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i mean it might help with the visualisation . marketing: 'kay , okay . like that . okay . industrial designer: and it would actually help with the component build as well . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , right . marketing: mm okay , great . project manager: um , okay well i got ta kind of got five minutes to wrap up now . um next thing we 're doing is having lunch . whoohoo . um and then we 're gon na have thirty minutes of working on the next stage . um so i 'll be putting the minutes of this uh this meeting into the project documents folder . um so uh i guess just to just to confirm that we know what we 're doing in the next well in the thirty minutes after lunch anyway , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: project manager: um for uh our industrial designer , you 're gon na be thinking about the components concept . um user interface designer gon na be thinking about our user interface , and marketing you 're gon na be thinking about trend watching . um and you 'll all get specific instructions as well . so um i dunno , just just to to ask now if you 've got anything else you 've thought about while we 've been talking . marketing: project manager: um , do you wan na start with david . anything else to say at all ? industrial designer: mm no , not really . project manager: no , okay . andrew ? marketing: um yeah , just i just wanted to ask then before we wrap up , shall we agree for sake of um sort of clarity and when we when we r resume that we 'll u use this idea david 's proposed , where we think of these three sort of buckets and anything anything we discuss about them is sort of , okay , we 're talking about this . project manager: yeah , yeah i think that 's definitely a good idea . industrial designer: mm . project manager: uh-huh . marketing: shall we do that , then ? project manager: yeah . marketing: okay , great . user interface: um just about the three buckets , um what would go in the the device functions one ? industrial designer: um things like on off . because they do n't have anything to do with what you see . i me mean in terms of picture and the entertainment value , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: you know , um so um project manager: okay . user interface: um marketing: and and channel . industrial designer: and channel . because the on off also goes , you know , like on off like power , not on off sound . marketing: right . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: not on off video . although you do n't turn off the video on your tv , but um you might wan na you know turn off the sound , project manager: okay . industrial designer: say you wan na pick up the phone , there 's a mute button , right , so you you have you have a choice of putting it on to um others or a device . project manager: okay . industrial designer: device is basically anything which we ca n't categorise , right . we put it out . project manager: okay , so you 're gon na have um audio which is gon na be like you know your bass settings and actual volume hi marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , anything to do with what you hear , right . you you put that into audio . project manager: okay . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then video is anything that you can see . project manager: okay , and then visual marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , so brightness , contrast , things like that , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um . yep . project manager: and then just actual device things , marketing: colour , yeah . industrial designer: yep . project manager: like what channel you 're watching , turning on an off , marketing: sure . sure . industrial designer: yep . project manager: stuff like that . marketing: okay . project manager: okay , um marketing: and then k i suppose quite likely what would happen is in the d device category there might be some which are just like the habitual standard and then others which are maybe a bit more industrial designer: like random which we have no other place to put , but we need it somewhere there . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . sure , okay . okay . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um even even if it does n't map very clearly what happens is that people at least have some in their mind . project manager: okay . industrial designer: it 's easy to use , i think that 's one thing that um and i guess from the component point of view it 's easy to build as well project manager: okay . industrial designer: 'cause things are like fixed . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: um so yeah , i guess just things to think about are you know like the fact it 's got ta look good , industrial designer: project manager: because of who we 're we 're , you know , targeting this at . um something maybe kind of quirky in design maybe . make it kind of ergonomic kind of to hold , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: you know , things like that . um , so i guess i guess that 's it . that 's the meeting over . marketing: great . project manager: whoohoo . marketing: then we get to go find out what was picked up for lunch for us . user interface: { vocalsound }

the group mentioned that if they need to include speech recognition , they should target between fifteen and thirty-five because this age group would be willing to try new technology . group mates also supplemented that this age group had a bit of expendable income to spend on the new technology and they were familiar with computers .

summarize the presentation on the working design . </s> project manager: is that alright now ? okay . sorry ? okay , everybody all set to start the meeting ? okay , we 've got half an hour for this one um to uh discuss the um functional design . marketing: could you plug me in ? user interface: marketing: okay . thanks . project manager: all ready to go ? okay . marketing: okay . project manager: um so hopefully you 've all been working away , and i 've put the minutes of the last meeting in the project folder . um so i guess just to to recap on uh what we did last time . um kind of uh got to know each other a little bit and uh got familiar with all the equipment and started to discuss um a bit about the project , you know , cost-wise how much how much money we had to s um just want to tell you that you have three new requirements , which is the the first one is that um uh the company 's decided that teletext is outdated uh because of how popular the internet is . nobody uses teletext very much anymore , so we do n't really need to consider that in the functionality of the of the remote control . marketing: 'kay . project manager: um they 've also suggested that we um we only use the remote control to control the television , not the v_c_r_ , d_v_d_ or anything else . i think the worry is that if the project becomes too complex then it 'll affect um how long it takes us to get it into into production , the time to market . so um , we 're just gon na keep it simple and it 'll just control the tv . marketing: okay . project manager: and the other thing was that the company want the corporate colour and slogan to be implemented in the new design . um i 'm not entirely sure what the corporate colour is . it might be yellow , because there seems to be a lot of yellow everywhere . marketing: and the slogan , like the actual written slogan , or just to embody the idea of the slogan ? project manager: well that 's the thing , i 'm i 'm not sure um uh th because on the the company website , uh what does it say uh something marketing: 'bout putting the fashion in electronics . industrial designer: mm yeah . project manager: yeah , i mean do they is that something they want actually written on it , 'cause it 's quite long . um or yeah , just the idea , but i 'm not sure . so that 's something we can discuss as well . so those are the three things , just not to worry about teletext , uh only control the tv , and um and uh incorporate the uh colour and slogan of the company . um so is everybody okay with any of that , or do you want me to recap at all ? industrial designer: nope , we 're all set . project manager: right um , time for presentations then . who would like to go first ? user interface: i 'll go first . project manager: okay , cool . marketing: sure . user interface: alright um , can i st steal this from the back of your laptop ? uh project manager: oh yeah , of course , yeah . g go on ahead . marketing: user interface: so this is the technical functions design . um right to do the um the design i have i 've had a look online , i 've had a look at the homepage , which has given us um some insp inspiration from previous products . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um i 've had a look at the previous products to see what they offer and um i would like to ask you guys for um your ideas about the design at the end of the meeting . um unfortunately we 're not allowed to talk outside the meeting room , so project manager: okay . marketing: right . user interface: um , having a look at the existing products , i found out that um it tends to come in sort of two extremes , there 's either um a very complicated one that 's got lots of buttons , lots of colours , very confusing , you do n't know what you 're doing . um in that case the the labelling tends to be very bad . um there 's an example i 'll show you at the end , um sh show you now . uh project manager: alright . user interface: here um the button there and there . this one 's prog . sorry . that one 's perg and that one 's prog , and it does n't really tell you what it does . um , not sure if you had a a look at the other um control in that example . um it 's a very simple one . it 's got only the basic functions mm but um it 's the same size as the the hard to use one . project manager: oop . user interface: uh it looked a bit clunky . they 're very big and not very much use for buttons . um , and it 's just very hard to access the advanced functions . there 's there 's nothing for instance for a slow motion button . um , my own preferences , i prefer the the clunky one . um it 's very easy to use . um but unfortunately it does lack the advanced functions which i i quite like having on the controls . um so i believe the the advanced functions should maybe be hidden in a drawer , or something like tha from the bottom of it . so , now i 'd like to ask for your preferences . um not sure of how long we 've got , uh project manager: um . well we can chat away for uh for five minutes or so i think at at most . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: just a couple of minutes anyway . marketing: m yeah , like a lot of a lot of what i 've um read and prepared for this meeting fits in really closely with what with what craig 's just gone over . so in part i could i could give you some of my personal preferences but i could also th add some to this which is just about sort of um sort of market research . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: but anyway , project manager: shall we sh well we 'll stick to kind of your area for now . marketing: um we might come to that later . industrial designer: which which is the clunky one , the one on left or on the right ? . . user interface: um , the clunky one is the one on the right . industrial designer: okay . project manager: yeah . marketing: um clunky in what sense , like um h heavier ? larger ? user interface: um i think it 's supposed to be the same size , but um it 's got much fewer buttons . it 's , you know , it 's very spread out marketing: i see , so it 's more just basic . project manager: looks kind of yeah . user interface: and kind of you know marketing: right , okay . user interface: , i get the idea it 'd be sort of about this size . got very few buttons on it and marketing: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . sure . project manager: well i think it 's a valid point . i mean like the one on the left looks quite um quite complicated , and that p_r_t_ p p_r_o_t_ thing is incredibly confusing . um so i see i see why yo you know you might prefer the simpler design , but yeah you do n't want to lose out on , you know , what it does , so maybe you know marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: you know you get a lot of remote controls where you kind of flip the thing open , industrial designer: project manager: i think that 's a good idea . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think it 's a good idea . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: um , do we have any functions that um we 'd want on it ? marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i mean so far i 've got um on and off , um switch the channel up and down , and put the volume up and down . project manager: mm-hmm . uh-huh . user interface: um they 're just the the very basics you could use for a tv . project manager: uh-huh , and then actual numbers for channels as well , yeah . user interface: okay . um , you say that 's a h a required one or a requested one ? would you like marketing: which was that ? user interface: um the channels like the the numbers on thing , um marketing: up the numbers , or the up down ? project manager: god , i wou i would say that 's required , marketing: project manager: i mean there 's no way anybody 's gon na buy a remote control these days when if you ca n't actually individually select channels , marketing: yeah . project manager: i mean would anybody disagree with that ? marketing: yeah . project manager: um , what else , uh so do n't need to worry about teletext , marketing: project manager: do n't need to worry about v_c_r_ , uh any kind of like display controls at all do you think we need to worry about , marketing: we do n't ? no ? project manager: you know like brightness and contrast ? marketing: yeah . well i think i think es essentially what we 're doing right now is we 're categorising . we 're saying well we want this to be a product that offers all the sort of more tricky features but we want them to be in another area ? project manager: mm . marketing: is that right ? project manager: yeah . marketing: is that what we 're we 're doing ? user interface: um , yeah . marketing: we 're kind of like sorting them an or are we actually eliminating things we just do n't want the product to have ? user interface: um project manager: i think are you are you maybe kind of thinking what we absolutely have to have and what would be nice ? user interface: uh , to start with um sort of a bit both , um we need to find out exactly what we have to have project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um and after that we can add things if they 're possible . project manager: okay , right . well , do you wan na maybe just , at this point decide on what we absolutely must have as a p as a function of this . marketing: yeah . project manager: um , so so far , just to recap you 've got volume and channel control and marketing: yep . user interface: there 's um on and off , um volume and channel , and skip to certain channels with the numbers . project manager: right okay . um marketing: well , one one way i would look at this um would be that we a approach the different controls in terms of um like control types , so that for the user it 's very clear what they want to do where they go . project manager: mm-hmm yeah . marketing: uh and also think maybe a little bit about sorta w w what would just wan na be acc easily accessible . project manager: oka marketing: for example if we had audio controls , those could be something people set up very rarely . maybe they 're un they 're they 're they 're in a little area but covered up um , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: things like channel and volume um are used all the time , so we just have them right out on top , um very just very sort of self-explanatory . um so maybe we need to think about having three or more groupings of controls , you know like one which are just the the habitual ones that should be right within your natural grip . and others that are uh also available industrial designer: marketing: and then others that are concealed . project manager: okay . marketing: something like that . project manager: uh well , just to to wrap up quickly on this this little section have i just lost oh no . um , uh do you think maybe that 's the only kind of uh essential requirements , and then maybe just things that would be nice if it could do would be things like audio set up and display set up and things like that , maybe like a mute button , that sort of thing . any of you anything to add to that at all ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: no . project manager: no . industrial designer: i 'll add it later , i guess the presentation . project manager: okay , right . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: um okay , industrial designer: project manager: if we can move on to next presentation then please . um marketing: sure . project manager: do you wan na user interface: do you want to switch places ? marketing: can this can this pl reach ? can this plug come across ? industrial designer: no . no . project manager: probably not , actually . marketing: no . project manager: marketing: so why do n't i just pick up and move then . project manager: yeah . marketing: here , i 'll just why do n't i just user interface: just just switch them . marketing: mm er , can you go up behind me ? kinda this is so this project manager: bit complicated . it 'd be nice if everything was wireless , would n't it ? marketing: i 'm all in a knot now . industrial designer: marketing: okay . project manager: right . industrial designer: marketing: um . so i can i can say already , i dunno whether this is for good or for bad but there 'll be a lot of kind of uh redundancy in the in the the issues and the the uh the things . project manager: oh , like overlap between what you said ? marketing: yeah , yeah . project manager: oh well , for all you know that that 'll happen . marketing: which is ma not necessarily a bad thing , but may what i 've already started doing is cr i created a slide in in my presentation here so um so that we kind of think well what 's the cumulative effect of what we 've taken from your ideas and and mine , because certainly i i have a hard time separating separating things completely . project manager: mm hard to know what where your role ends , yeah . marketing: obviously obviously what you 've just told me what you 've just told me impacts a lot on what um like market research mm that that i 've been project manager: okay . marketing: so how do i how do i get this up ? industrial designer: um function f_ eight . project manager: uh pr yeah , press function and f_ eight , yeah . marketing: okay . okay . alright . so f_ eight ? industrial designer: function , the blue button . next to the control on the left . yeah . marketing: oh , and f_ eight . okay . industrial designer: you have to push it together . project manager: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yep . marketing: okay , i think that that 's doing it now . industrial designer: nope . try that again . marketing: uh , again ? industrial designer: wait . user interface: think maybe the the wire in the back might be loose . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah , you wan na oh oh here we go . marketing: um , industrial designer: yep , there we go . project manager: there you go . marketing: okay great . okay . just um before i bring this up what i 'll just say is um what i 've what i 've done is tried to collect some information so that i can then relay this to to you guys so that it 's now becomes a collective thing . and then kind of lead us in the direction of deciding , 'kay what what are our options , what should we decide and do you know what i mean , so . industrial designer: increase that 'cause we ca n't see the project manager: um marketing: okay . project manager: okay . industrial designer: that 's much better . project manager: right . can you um industrial designer: there you go . project manager: right , okay . marketing: okay . alright . that would be okay . so um does that make sense ? so what i basically got is i just looked into some information and sort of th tried to think about how how we could review it and how we could and what kind of decisions we could take away from it and then maybe by the end of just looking at some of these things we can think about what are our priorities . 'cause certainly there 's lots of different information to go through . so um i 'm thinking here about uh primarily about customer needs , that we start with the customer , and w you know , what they want and what are issues with with um existing products . uh to think about trends and also about try and connect that as you see with the company vision which is about fashion in electronics . um and then , as i say uh w we 'd like to prioritise our design features from this and um project manager: industrial designer: bouncing on top . marketing: dunno . okay . um . project manager: yeah . marketing: so this is what i 've found here , um a lot of this is new to me , so we 'll just read through together . um , users dislike the look and feel of current remote controls . so they find them ugly . most people find them ugly . um the vast majority would spend more money for it to look fancy as well , we 'll see later , the vast majority would spend more money for um slightly more intuitive control , such as voice recognition . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: okay i 'm gon na we 'll look at that in a second . um most people use only a f a very slim portion of all the controls . so i guess what we 're looking at here is people want this h technology , they tend to use the most simple controls and overall they find remote controls to be something they do n't does n't really appeal to them . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so i think what we 're doing is we 're trying to take like if for me this is sorta like three different different um inspirations , you know , one is that we want uh something that 's high-tech but we want it to seem easy . and in spite of the primitive side of it and the very high-tech side , we want it to just be an appealing piece of equipment in people 's hands . um , frustrations . they get lost a lot , s as it came up in our last meeting . um , takes time to learn how to use them . this is uh why i mention when craig was uh showing us some ideas that we actually try and group controls , so d it does n't just look like a big panel , kinda like when you you look at , you know , a new computer keyboard , or something that is quite explanatory . if you want audio , if you want visual , then you have those . um and i will admit i do n't know what r_s_i_ stands for . project manager: repetitive strain injury . industrial designer: is installing a new remote control something that people marketing: uh , no , that did not come up at all . um so here here is another um sort of a a review here of the main things . i also found that most people would uh adults at least would pay more for voice recognition . now apparently we do have access to all the tech cutting edge technology in remote control . so i dunno if that 's possible we might consider getting into it . um . and and again here as we sort of move m sort of thin start thinking about how we wan na sell and market this , i think a recurring theme here is the company wants it to be wants us to make something that 's fashionable and sleek and trendy . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um people uh additionally are n't are n't liking the appearance of their products , so we wan na think about as we take all the sort of the techie features how we can um put that into a unit which is which people like . project manager: okay . marketing: you know , they like the aesthetics and the ergonomics . project manager: so want something that looks good and is easy to use , big priorities . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: yeah , so you know just c looking at what what craig um craig 's i uh ideas are s sorta tell me that maybe what we wan na do is try and um separate the different things that we wan na include in this . so if we do say well we want there to be all the technology will we try and make that almost be like optional technology . you know , it 's like like i find a lot of tvs these days , something really like about 'em is if you wan na just turn 'em on and off you can , but they have little panels where you click and there 's just like tons of features you go through . project manager: mm . so it you wan na group all the different kind of types of functions together , you know . marketing: yeah . project manager: that 's i think it 's a good idea . marketing: yeah . that 's s that 's sort of the um but i i 'm my hope here is that i 'm putting out this information so that we can then say okay , well how do we collectively move on with it . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . marketing: um i i have n't brought out one specific marketing idea , although my sense is that what we should try and think about is what are the current trends in materials and shapes and styles , and then use that . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: but not let that confine us technologically . project manager: okay . right . marketing: so alright ? any um comments on all of that ? project manager: well , um one of the things that we have to decide on by the end of the meeting is who we 're gon na be um who 's our our target audience , our target market . marketing: that 's uh project manager: um , so if we want something that that looks good and is easy to use , but has y is fairly powerful product , whatever , who do we really want to aim that at ? marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: i mean marketing: where 's the money , maybe . project manager: yeah , who wou who would have the money to spend . well i if if like twenty five euro is our is our selling price then you can imagine , marketing: yeah . and who watches tv . mm-hmm . project manager: well i do n't i 'm not really sure how much that will retail at . marketing: mm . project manager: but you want it 's somebody who 's not gon na just use the remote that comes with their telly , i suppose , they 're gon na actually go out and buy one . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so , who do you think we 're aiming this at ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um , i think it 'll be the mid range to the high end market , in terms of people . 'cause twenty five euros for a remote , how much is that lo locally in pounds ? project manager: it 's about sixteen , seventeen pounds , i think . industrial designer: is that too is that a lot of money to buy an extra remote or a replacement remote ? project manager: yeah , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: right . project manager: okay . industrial designer: um so maybe not the high end range , but maybe middle , middle up-ish . kind of . project manager: okay . industrial designer: you know how much ? i dunno i guess you pay , what , ten ten quid for a remote ? project manager: okay . industrial designer: like a simple replacement , right . i mean if you lost your remote and the first thing you just wan na go out and get , project manager: yeah . yeah , marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: would you how much would you pay ? marketing: this this kinda touches on your comments there , david . these are the age groups which we have information on industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and these are this is a table of h what people would pay more for a certain feature . project manager: okay marketing: just gives us a rough idea of where the w the will to spend money on tv equipment is . project manager: okay . marketing: mostly focused around the twenty five age group . project manager: yeah , so do you think we 're we 're aiming at a fairly young market then ? industrial designer: yep . marketing: sort of young professional , kind of . mm-hmm project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: um project manager: um do you think then uh voice recognition is something we should really seriously consider ? what what do you think , craig ? user interface: well , did you not say it was the the adults that were going for the the voice recognition ? sort of the the older group . marketing: uh , yeah , it 's the yep . user interface: uh f marketing: it does it does fit with the market that we 're sort of identifying , project manager: n yeah . marketing: in terms of project manager: i think we are gon na have to narrow it down , to say let 's target these people and give them what they want marketing: okay . project manager: and 'cause you know , there needs to be some kind of selling point to it . marketing: yeah . sure . sure . project manager: so um anybody anything there to add marketing: yeah . project manager: just kind of young professionals , uh th like if we are going to include speech recognition , it 's kind of between fifteen and thirty five seems to be like a really high response to that . so we could say that was our target . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i i think twenty five to thirty five is is is fair to add that in as a group as well project manager: yeah . industrial designer: because that 's more than half your group of people who are willing to at least try and use your technology . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . yeah , yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . okay , so fifteen to thirty five , look fairly young . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: you know , they have bit of expendable income to spend on this sort of thing . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think perhaps that age group is significant as well because those are people who use the computer , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: who are familiar with their with computers in in their everyday work . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think people who are maybe about i would n't say thirty five , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: but people who are about forty-ish and above now would not be so dependent and reliant on a computer or a mobile phone or something like that . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . but yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah , sure . industrial designer: so these are people who are gadgety , right ? project manager: so marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: people who are u growing up used to , you know in schools and in universities , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: when you go on to their working lives , people who would you know regular project manager: yeah . so they 'll not sh not shy away from something quite high-tech . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . mm . project manager: that that 's that 's a good point . marketing: yeah . project manager: um okay , so um industrial designer: project manager: so shall we make the decision uh to include speech recognition marketing: if we can . industrial designer: i i think one thing we should try not to avoid is not to say we have to use speech recognition right now , project manager: if we can . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: because um , based on what you 've go y everybody 's saying , right , you want something simple . project manager: okay . why is that ? industrial designer: you want basic stuff and you want something that 's easy to use . speech recognition might not be the simplest thing for somebody to use . marketing: right . project manager: okay . marketing: could it be an on off thing ? industrial designer: um , marketing: like if you want it on industrial designer: but what i 'm saying is that we 're we 're trying to lock ourselves into a s particular kind of technology , project manager: where you can activate it and deactivate it ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: rather than focusing on on exactly what are the features that we 're gon na say , and then , you know , say speech recognition is good for this , speech recognition is not good for this . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: yeah . sure . industrial designer: so maybe we should marketing: sure . project manager: okay . industrial designer: i suggest that we think about speech recognition , marketing: yeah . sure . industrial designer: anyway it 's a it 's something that can be used to fulfil a function , but at end of the day we do n't look at the technology , but we look at the function first . project manager: uh-huh . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: sure . yep . project manager: uh okay , well do you wan na um give us your presentation industrial designer: okay , sure . project manager: and then then we can i do n't know marketing: yep . project manager: um might have been a good idea to all deliver our presentations and then discuss , but this is this is how we 're marketing: yeah , it 's good well it 's good to get ideas out while they 're fresh in mind . project manager: yeah , exactly , yeah . marketing: um project manager: oh it 's something that 's just occurred to me as well is if we make it um speech reco if we incorporate speech recognition , that 's appealing to people um maybe with a physical disability as well . marketing: not project manager: um . marketing: yeah . and not losing . and also it helps in terms of people not losing this , project manager: yeah . marketing: you know they they 're saying oh it 's i lose it in the couch . project manager: yeah . marketing: like we 're kind of what we 're b sort of getting in into here is mating different uh design features together project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: that they user interface: i reckon one problem with speech recognition is um i 've actually seen one of them used and uh the technology that was in that one was n't particularly amazing , so you end up yelling at the control for hours . industrial designer: project manager: really ? user interface: channel up . marketing: right . user interface: marketing: oh really , you 've seen one before . project manager: do you think maybe we need like further advances in that kind of area until it 's worthwhile incorporating it though ? user interface: um i think it 'd probably quite expensive to put in . industrial designer: sorry , do you mind passing me my notepad . project manager: mm . course not . industrial designer: thanks . cool , project manager: there you go . industrial designer: um . okay . um . project manager: right . industrial designer: well this is just the working design um . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: well this is just what how i would go about it . um i guess i try to define like what we 're doing now , try to define what we 're trying to get done . um i think in a practical way , we kind of know what it is . marketing: right . industrial designer: we 've used it , we 're familiar with it , but we 're we ca n't n we have n't narrowed down um exactly what the things we 're trying to fulfil , like besides the basics , i think back in the back of our minds we know what the basics are . has to change channels , has to change volume , but in like specifics , right , which one of the basics are you trying to target . um are there certain parts of the basics that are more important or less important than the basics ? marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and i just the idea is just to get everybody to um i usually have a have have a design that 's there as a basic , so , you know , things that to start everything going . but i guess everybody does have some idea , so i do n't think um there 's a need for that . um okay this finding things is a little bit confusing , so i 'll go into the diagram first . it just explains how the process goes through , from a project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: from the basic technology point of view , the basic steps that you need um in the diagram and in this slide probably works better . um okay , you need some power source . 'kay , a battery or something , to keep it going . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and that power source is important because it ties you down to um how long the device will last . um it ties you down perhaps a bit later on in terms of the technologies project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: um how far you can transmit the signal or the complexity of the functions that you want . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like for example , voice recognition , right . that might be constrained because that you might need to power a microphone , you might need to power other things , so that 's one perhaps constraint there . um th okay , the basic thing is there 's a user interface where people punch a button or talk into it or smile to it or blink their eyes , whatever . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: you know , and that um picks up an input from a user , um uh a logic a series of logic has to decide what the user is telling the device , and the device has to r you know , based on you push button a_ , so i will do something with button a_ . so maybe button a_ is the power button , okay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and then it needs to be able to send the signal out to the device itself which is the receiver here . um and i think that 's about it in terms of my design um . it 's fairly general , um and i guess the purpose of this is also not to restrict you in in the way you 're thinking , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like um voice recognition , right , um , if it 's something which is important then we just add more power rather than having a thing that we do n't have enough power . so it 's not really a constraint in that sense , project manager: okay . industrial designer: but i mean these are functionally , you know , the base , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: what the technology has to do . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . industrial designer: um so i guess the rest of it marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i think we should maybe you you wan na go back to what the functions are ? i think that 's more relevant to a discussion ? project manager: uh . marketing: 'kay . project manager: well , do you wan do you wan na finish up your your whole presentation then ? marketing: sure . sure . industrial designer: yeah , w i 'm done . project manager: are you are you all done ? industrial designer: more or less . yeah . ps oh , it 's just putting the rest of it into words , but it 's essentially the same thing . marketing: yep . project manager: mm . industrial designer: um you have a transmitter , an input device , logic chip , project manager: okay . industrial designer: you know , stuff like that . project manager: okay . marketing: right . industrial designer: um project manager: right . marketing: and like on the means b industrial designer: i guess this would be marketing: since we 're on the topic of the technology , uh are there any like what are our options ? industrial designer: yep . marketing: alright , what 's what i in is this the only way that we go about it , or are there other thin industrial designer: um , these these are n't technology options in that sense . this is just um marketing: right . industrial designer: a basic principles and basic components that are needed . marketing: the basic principle of project manager: okay . marketing: 'kay . industrial designer: for example , if you needed um if you needed to add uh a voice recognition , right , then your user interface would be split , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: right . industrial designer: broken down into more components , right , marketing: okay . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: which you have a microphone , the v_r_ and stuff like that . project manager: oh . so this just show how we 're kind of modularising the whole thing . marketing: okay . industrial designer: uh yep . yep . so each component represents one function , project manager: okay . industrial designer: but i think the basic functions are the logic , the transmitter , um and the receiver , okay , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and the power are things that you wo n't have to care about . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and those are things that based on what your user interface requires then we 'll add more functionality to it . project manager: yeah . mm-hmm . industrial designer: um there might be one other consideration which would be that the the transmission between the remote control and the tv for example . project manager: okay . industrial designer: okay , um are we gon na restrict ourselves to using the traditional technologies of infra-red thing ? project manager: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . industrial designer: because that 's something you need to actually be physically be pointing to . right . project manager: okay . marketing: right . project manager: well well a worry that was was expressed in the new requirements was that if we made this too complex it would e it would effect um how long how long it took us to get this to market , so i th suspect it might be a good idea just to restrict our kind of our creative influence on this on the user interface and not worry so much about uh how we transmit it industrial designer: yep . project manager: um because i mean it it 's tried and tested intra-red , so we could stay with tha industrial designer: there might be one other problem with the transmission , um in particular right now , since we 're talking about voice recognition . um if somebody 's gon na h talk to the device , you ideally want them to hold it to them . project manager: mm-hmm industrial designer: i it project manager: oh , yeah . industrial designer: you may not require that , marketing: right . industrial designer: but you know , um it 's it 's marketing: right . industrial designer: it 's something very natural , i guess , you know , to hold it , to signal to the user , project manager: yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: and push a button maybe to start s talking about it . project manager: okay . industrial designer: then you need to send the signal out , so because if you 're using infra-red , the line of sight um say the tv 's at that chair , and i 'm standing in front of here and the transmitter is here , it blocks it . project manager: mm . mm . yeah . industrial designer: so in that sense , there 's not really a restriction project manager: okay . industrial designer: but it 's something which you may have to think about later on in the process . marketing: right . industrial designer: not so much further down . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . marketing: and um just a clarification before we finish this . uh does c is our controller is it have the option of being um on a standard uh frequency as all of the other equipment , so that the one controller can control several pieces of equipment ? industrial designer: there 's there 's not much specific specific information , project manager: w industrial designer: but i think that um one indication of infra-red mean that you 're just targeting traditional devices . because infra-red is something which everybody has . project manager: yeah . w well well we 've um marketing: okay . project manager: in the new requirement spec they said just to focus on the tv , industrial designer: marketing: just to tv , okay . project manager: so that 's what we should do for now i think . something i was wondering about was the power . marketing: okay . project manager: um , is it worth considering like having like a charging unit as opposed to just regular batteries ? i mean is that something we really want to go into , do you think , industrial designer: there 's a there 's project manager: or should we just consider running on regular batteries ? industrial designer: okay , from from a from a component point of view there 's added complexity , and you add cost to it , project manager: uh-huh . uh-huh . industrial designer: um and then there 's probably the fact that you need another physical component . you need a docking cradle , for example , for you to put it in to charge . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: or you need to get the user to plug it in . project manager: okay . marketing: project manager: okay , industrial designer: um and most users are very f use already used to the idea of buying batteries and putting it into the controller . project manager: so yeah . industrial designer: but unless the controller 's gon na consume a lot of batteries , like he 's gon na run through like twenty batteries a month , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: then i do n't think rechargeable is something we should you know , we really need to care about . project manager: okay , so just stick to to regular marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um . project manager: okay . um , right . so basically the um i 'm just gon na just recap uh what i said at the start , was that um the the whole point of this meeting was to f absolutely finalise who we 're gon na aim this at , industrial designer: project manager: and what exactly the product 's gon na do . marketing: okay . project manager: so um just to recap on marketing: okay . project manager: are we all happy about the idea of um aiming the product at um the fifteen to thirty five bracket ? um and also the funct the the actual functions of what it 's gon na do . marketing: yeah , that 's good . project manager: do you wan na recap on that , craig ? user interface: um . project manager: user interface: i think we just say that it was gon na be the the most basic stuff possible . um on off , up and down channels , up and down volume and uh skip to a channel . project manager: okay , right . user interface: ta . marketing: and is it going to include any of the uh the more advanced features , or are we gon na eliminate those ? user interface: um i think we include mute , but apart from that um i think we just we 'll go for the simpleness . industrial designer: okay , i think project manager: okay . marketing: okay . r is it is it is it s is it not an option still that we include some things just as a sort of under like sort of under a door or some project manager: yeah , it 's as optional functions . user interface: yeah . marketing: 'cause what what i 'm i 'd be a bit worried about is if someone was h had previously developed habits of expecting to control surround sound or this and that with their controller and then and then they , you know , w they get ours and w it 's does n't have that . project manager: okay . marketing: i dunno if that 'd be a problem . industrial designer: another thing that you were saying about categorising the controls ? um maybe i could suggest we we break them down into three simple categories . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: one would be audio controls , marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: one would be video controls , and the other one would be a device . marketing: okay . industrial designer: um this may not map very well to advanced functionality especially , but i think that um from a manufacturer 's point of view , from a person designing the device , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but i think from a point of view of a person using the device , you know a tv is something they see and something they hear , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um it 's something they do other things to like turn it on and turn it off . i mean like so what we could have is like three buckets , right , where we could throw things into , project manager: yeah . marketing: right . project manager: industrial designer: like if we want this feature , let 's throw it into there , and then from there decide whether it 's basic , or it 's non-basic . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i mean it might help with the visualisation . marketing: 'kay , okay . like that . okay . industrial designer: and it would actually help with the component build as well . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , right . marketing: mm okay , great . project manager: um , okay well i got ta kind of got five minutes to wrap up now . um next thing we 're doing is having lunch . whoohoo . um and then we 're gon na have thirty minutes of working on the next stage . um so i 'll be putting the minutes of this uh this meeting into the project documents folder . um so uh i guess just to just to confirm that we know what we 're doing in the next well in the thirty minutes after lunch anyway , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: project manager: um for uh our industrial designer , you 're gon na be thinking about the components concept . um user interface designer gon na be thinking about our user interface , and marketing you 're gon na be thinking about trend watching . um and you 'll all get specific instructions as well . so um i dunno , just just to to ask now if you 've got anything else you 've thought about while we 've been talking . marketing: project manager: um , do you wan na start with david . anything else to say at all ? industrial designer: mm no , not really . project manager: no , okay . andrew ? marketing: um yeah , just i just wanted to ask then before we wrap up , shall we agree for sake of um sort of clarity and when we when we r resume that we 'll u use this idea david 's proposed , where we think of these three sort of buckets and anything anything we discuss about them is sort of , okay , we 're talking about this . project manager: yeah , yeah i think that 's definitely a good idea . industrial designer: mm . project manager: uh-huh . marketing: shall we do that , then ? project manager: yeah . marketing: okay , great . user interface: um just about the three buckets , um what would go in the the device functions one ? industrial designer: um things like on off . because they do n't have anything to do with what you see . i me mean in terms of picture and the entertainment value , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: you know , um so um project manager: okay . user interface: um marketing: and and channel . industrial designer: and channel . because the on off also goes , you know , like on off like power , not on off sound . marketing: right . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: not on off video . although you do n't turn off the video on your tv , but um you might wan na you know turn off the sound , project manager: okay . industrial designer: say you wan na pick up the phone , there 's a mute button , right , so you you have you have a choice of putting it on to um others or a device . project manager: okay . industrial designer: device is basically anything which we ca n't categorise , right . we put it out . project manager: okay , so you 're gon na have um audio which is gon na be like you know your bass settings and actual volume hi marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , anything to do with what you hear , right . you you put that into audio . project manager: okay . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then video is anything that you can see . project manager: okay , and then visual marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , so brightness , contrast , things like that , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um . yep . project manager: and then just actual device things , marketing: colour , yeah . industrial designer: yep . project manager: like what channel you 're watching , turning on an off , marketing: sure . sure . industrial designer: yep . project manager: stuff like that . marketing: okay . project manager: okay , um marketing: and then k i suppose quite likely what would happen is in the d device category there might be some which are just like the habitual standard and then others which are maybe a bit more industrial designer: like random which we have no other place to put , but we need it somewhere there . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . sure , okay . okay . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um even even if it does n't map very clearly what happens is that people at least have some in their mind . project manager: okay . industrial designer: it 's easy to use , i think that 's one thing that um and i guess from the component point of view it 's easy to build as well project manager: okay . industrial designer: 'cause things are like fixed . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: um so yeah , i guess just things to think about are you know like the fact it 's got ta look good , industrial designer: project manager: because of who we 're we 're , you know , targeting this at . um something maybe kind of quirky in design maybe . make it kind of ergonomic kind of to hold , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: you know , things like that . um , so i guess i guess that 's it . that 's the meeting over . marketing: great . project manager: whoohoo . marketing: then we get to go find out what was picked up for lunch for us . user interface: { vocalsound }

industrial designer introduced the basic working design logic of the remote , including the working process , the batteries , the power source to transmit the signal , the voice recognition as well as the interface for users to tab the button on the device .

what are the advantages and the disadvantages of voice recognition from group discussion ? </s> project manager: is that alright now ? okay . sorry ? okay , everybody all set to start the meeting ? okay , we 've got half an hour for this one um to uh discuss the um functional design . marketing: could you plug me in ? user interface: marketing: okay . thanks . project manager: all ready to go ? okay . marketing: okay . project manager: um so hopefully you 've all been working away , and i 've put the minutes of the last meeting in the project folder . um so i guess just to to recap on uh what we did last time . um kind of uh got to know each other a little bit and uh got familiar with all the equipment and started to discuss um a bit about the project , you know , cost-wise how much how much money we had to s um just want to tell you that you have three new requirements , which is the the first one is that um uh the company 's decided that teletext is outdated uh because of how popular the internet is . nobody uses teletext very much anymore , so we do n't really need to consider that in the functionality of the of the remote control . marketing: 'kay . project manager: um they 've also suggested that we um we only use the remote control to control the television , not the v_c_r_ , d_v_d_ or anything else . i think the worry is that if the project becomes too complex then it 'll affect um how long it takes us to get it into into production , the time to market . so um , we 're just gon na keep it simple and it 'll just control the tv . marketing: okay . project manager: and the other thing was that the company want the corporate colour and slogan to be implemented in the new design . um i 'm not entirely sure what the corporate colour is . it might be yellow , because there seems to be a lot of yellow everywhere . marketing: and the slogan , like the actual written slogan , or just to embody the idea of the slogan ? project manager: well that 's the thing , i 'm i 'm not sure um uh th because on the the company website , uh what does it say uh something marketing: 'bout putting the fashion in electronics . industrial designer: mm yeah . project manager: yeah , i mean do they is that something they want actually written on it , 'cause it 's quite long . um or yeah , just the idea , but i 'm not sure . so that 's something we can discuss as well . so those are the three things , just not to worry about teletext , uh only control the tv , and um and uh incorporate the uh colour and slogan of the company . um so is everybody okay with any of that , or do you want me to recap at all ? industrial designer: nope , we 're all set . project manager: right um , time for presentations then . who would like to go first ? user interface: i 'll go first . project manager: okay , cool . marketing: sure . user interface: alright um , can i st steal this from the back of your laptop ? uh project manager: oh yeah , of course , yeah . g go on ahead . marketing: user interface: so this is the technical functions design . um right to do the um the design i have i 've had a look online , i 've had a look at the homepage , which has given us um some insp inspiration from previous products . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um i 've had a look at the previous products to see what they offer and um i would like to ask you guys for um your ideas about the design at the end of the meeting . um unfortunately we 're not allowed to talk outside the meeting room , so project manager: okay . marketing: right . user interface: um , having a look at the existing products , i found out that um it tends to come in sort of two extremes , there 's either um a very complicated one that 's got lots of buttons , lots of colours , very confusing , you do n't know what you 're doing . um in that case the the labelling tends to be very bad . um there 's an example i 'll show you at the end , um sh show you now . uh project manager: alright . user interface: here um the button there and there . this one 's prog . sorry . that one 's perg and that one 's prog , and it does n't really tell you what it does . um , not sure if you had a a look at the other um control in that example . um it 's a very simple one . it 's got only the basic functions mm but um it 's the same size as the the hard to use one . project manager: oop . user interface: uh it looked a bit clunky . they 're very big and not very much use for buttons . um , and it 's just very hard to access the advanced functions . there 's there 's nothing for instance for a slow motion button . um , my own preferences , i prefer the the clunky one . um it 's very easy to use . um but unfortunately it does lack the advanced functions which i i quite like having on the controls . um so i believe the the advanced functions should maybe be hidden in a drawer , or something like tha from the bottom of it . so , now i 'd like to ask for your preferences . um not sure of how long we 've got , uh project manager: um . well we can chat away for uh for five minutes or so i think at at most . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: just a couple of minutes anyway . marketing: m yeah , like a lot of a lot of what i 've um read and prepared for this meeting fits in really closely with what with what craig 's just gone over . so in part i could i could give you some of my personal preferences but i could also th add some to this which is just about sort of um sort of market research . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: but anyway , project manager: shall we sh well we 'll stick to kind of your area for now . marketing: um we might come to that later . industrial designer: which which is the clunky one , the one on left or on the right ? . . user interface: um , the clunky one is the one on the right . industrial designer: okay . project manager: yeah . marketing: um clunky in what sense , like um h heavier ? larger ? user interface: um i think it 's supposed to be the same size , but um it 's got much fewer buttons . it 's , you know , it 's very spread out marketing: i see , so it 's more just basic . project manager: looks kind of yeah . user interface: and kind of you know marketing: right , okay . user interface: , i get the idea it 'd be sort of about this size . got very few buttons on it and marketing: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . sure . project manager: well i think it 's a valid point . i mean like the one on the left looks quite um quite complicated , and that p_r_t_ p p_r_o_t_ thing is incredibly confusing . um so i see i see why yo you know you might prefer the simpler design , but yeah you do n't want to lose out on , you know , what it does , so maybe you know marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: you know you get a lot of remote controls where you kind of flip the thing open , industrial designer: project manager: i think that 's a good idea . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think it 's a good idea . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: um , do we have any functions that um we 'd want on it ? marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i mean so far i 've got um on and off , um switch the channel up and down , and put the volume up and down . project manager: mm-hmm . uh-huh . user interface: um they 're just the the very basics you could use for a tv . project manager: uh-huh , and then actual numbers for channels as well , yeah . user interface: okay . um , you say that 's a h a required one or a requested one ? would you like marketing: which was that ? user interface: um the channels like the the numbers on thing , um marketing: up the numbers , or the up down ? project manager: god , i wou i would say that 's required , marketing: project manager: i mean there 's no way anybody 's gon na buy a remote control these days when if you ca n't actually individually select channels , marketing: yeah . project manager: i mean would anybody disagree with that ? marketing: yeah . project manager: um , what else , uh so do n't need to worry about teletext , marketing: project manager: do n't need to worry about v_c_r_ , uh any kind of like display controls at all do you think we need to worry about , marketing: we do n't ? no ? project manager: you know like brightness and contrast ? marketing: yeah . well i think i think es essentially what we 're doing right now is we 're categorising . we 're saying well we want this to be a product that offers all the sort of more tricky features but we want them to be in another area ? project manager: mm . marketing: is that right ? project manager: yeah . marketing: is that what we 're we 're doing ? user interface: um , yeah . marketing: we 're kind of like sorting them an or are we actually eliminating things we just do n't want the product to have ? user interface: um project manager: i think are you are you maybe kind of thinking what we absolutely have to have and what would be nice ? user interface: uh , to start with um sort of a bit both , um we need to find out exactly what we have to have project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um and after that we can add things if they 're possible . project manager: okay , right . well , do you wan na maybe just , at this point decide on what we absolutely must have as a p as a function of this . marketing: yeah . project manager: um , so so far , just to recap you 've got volume and channel control and marketing: yep . user interface: there 's um on and off , um volume and channel , and skip to certain channels with the numbers . project manager: right okay . um marketing: well , one one way i would look at this um would be that we a approach the different controls in terms of um like control types , so that for the user it 's very clear what they want to do where they go . project manager: mm-hmm yeah . marketing: uh and also think maybe a little bit about sorta w w what would just wan na be acc easily accessible . project manager: oka marketing: for example if we had audio controls , those could be something people set up very rarely . maybe they 're un they 're they 're they 're in a little area but covered up um , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: things like channel and volume um are used all the time , so we just have them right out on top , um very just very sort of self-explanatory . um so maybe we need to think about having three or more groupings of controls , you know like one which are just the the habitual ones that should be right within your natural grip . and others that are uh also available industrial designer: marketing: and then others that are concealed . project manager: okay . marketing: something like that . project manager: uh well , just to to wrap up quickly on this this little section have i just lost oh no . um , uh do you think maybe that 's the only kind of uh essential requirements , and then maybe just things that would be nice if it could do would be things like audio set up and display set up and things like that , maybe like a mute button , that sort of thing . any of you anything to add to that at all ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: no . project manager: no . industrial designer: i 'll add it later , i guess the presentation . project manager: okay , right . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: um okay , industrial designer: project manager: if we can move on to next presentation then please . um marketing: sure . project manager: do you wan na user interface: do you want to switch places ? marketing: can this can this pl reach ? can this plug come across ? industrial designer: no . no . project manager: probably not , actually . marketing: no . project manager: marketing: so why do n't i just pick up and move then . project manager: yeah . marketing: here , i 'll just why do n't i just user interface: just just switch them . marketing: mm er , can you go up behind me ? kinda this is so this project manager: bit complicated . it 'd be nice if everything was wireless , would n't it ? marketing: i 'm all in a knot now . industrial designer: marketing: okay . project manager: right . industrial designer: marketing: um . so i can i can say already , i dunno whether this is for good or for bad but there 'll be a lot of kind of uh redundancy in the in the the issues and the the uh the things . project manager: oh , like overlap between what you said ? marketing: yeah , yeah . project manager: oh well , for all you know that that 'll happen . marketing: which is ma not necessarily a bad thing , but may what i 've already started doing is cr i created a slide in in my presentation here so um so that we kind of think well what 's the cumulative effect of what we 've taken from your ideas and and mine , because certainly i i have a hard time separating separating things completely . project manager: mm hard to know what where your role ends , yeah . marketing: obviously obviously what you 've just told me what you 've just told me impacts a lot on what um like market research mm that that i 've been project manager: okay . marketing: so how do i how do i get this up ? industrial designer: um function f_ eight . project manager: uh pr yeah , press function and f_ eight , yeah . marketing: okay . okay . alright . so f_ eight ? industrial designer: function , the blue button . next to the control on the left . yeah . marketing: oh , and f_ eight . okay . industrial designer: you have to push it together . project manager: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yep . marketing: okay , i think that that 's doing it now . industrial designer: nope . try that again . marketing: uh , again ? industrial designer: wait . user interface: think maybe the the wire in the back might be loose . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah , you wan na oh oh here we go . marketing: um , industrial designer: yep , there we go . project manager: there you go . marketing: okay great . okay . just um before i bring this up what i 'll just say is um what i 've what i 've done is tried to collect some information so that i can then relay this to to you guys so that it 's now becomes a collective thing . and then kind of lead us in the direction of deciding , 'kay what what are our options , what should we decide and do you know what i mean , so . industrial designer: increase that 'cause we ca n't see the project manager: um marketing: okay . project manager: okay . industrial designer: that 's much better . project manager: right . can you um industrial designer: there you go . project manager: right , okay . marketing: okay . alright . that would be okay . so um does that make sense ? so what i basically got is i just looked into some information and sort of th tried to think about how how we could review it and how we could and what kind of decisions we could take away from it and then maybe by the end of just looking at some of these things we can think about what are our priorities . 'cause certainly there 's lots of different information to go through . so um i 'm thinking here about uh primarily about customer needs , that we start with the customer , and w you know , what they want and what are issues with with um existing products . uh to think about trends and also about try and connect that as you see with the company vision which is about fashion in electronics . um and then , as i say uh w we 'd like to prioritise our design features from this and um project manager: industrial designer: bouncing on top . marketing: dunno . okay . um . project manager: yeah . marketing: so this is what i 've found here , um a lot of this is new to me , so we 'll just read through together . um , users dislike the look and feel of current remote controls . so they find them ugly . most people find them ugly . um the vast majority would spend more money for it to look fancy as well , we 'll see later , the vast majority would spend more money for um slightly more intuitive control , such as voice recognition . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: okay i 'm gon na we 'll look at that in a second . um most people use only a f a very slim portion of all the controls . so i guess what we 're looking at here is people want this h technology , they tend to use the most simple controls and overall they find remote controls to be something they do n't does n't really appeal to them . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so i think what we 're doing is we 're trying to take like if for me this is sorta like three different different um inspirations , you know , one is that we want uh something that 's high-tech but we want it to seem easy . and in spite of the primitive side of it and the very high-tech side , we want it to just be an appealing piece of equipment in people 's hands . um , frustrations . they get lost a lot , s as it came up in our last meeting . um , takes time to learn how to use them . this is uh why i mention when craig was uh showing us some ideas that we actually try and group controls , so d it does n't just look like a big panel , kinda like when you you look at , you know , a new computer keyboard , or something that is quite explanatory . if you want audio , if you want visual , then you have those . um and i will admit i do n't know what r_s_i_ stands for . project manager: repetitive strain injury . industrial designer: is installing a new remote control something that people marketing: uh , no , that did not come up at all . um so here here is another um sort of a a review here of the main things . i also found that most people would uh adults at least would pay more for voice recognition . now apparently we do have access to all the tech cutting edge technology in remote control . so i dunno if that 's possible we might consider getting into it . um . and and again here as we sort of move m sort of thin start thinking about how we wan na sell and market this , i think a recurring theme here is the company wants it to be wants us to make something that 's fashionable and sleek and trendy . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um people uh additionally are n't are n't liking the appearance of their products , so we wan na think about as we take all the sort of the techie features how we can um put that into a unit which is which people like . project manager: okay . marketing: you know , they like the aesthetics and the ergonomics . project manager: so want something that looks good and is easy to use , big priorities . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: yeah , so you know just c looking at what what craig um craig 's i uh ideas are s sorta tell me that maybe what we wan na do is try and um separate the different things that we wan na include in this . so if we do say well we want there to be all the technology will we try and make that almost be like optional technology . you know , it 's like like i find a lot of tvs these days , something really like about 'em is if you wan na just turn 'em on and off you can , but they have little panels where you click and there 's just like tons of features you go through . project manager: mm . so it you wan na group all the different kind of types of functions together , you know . marketing: yeah . project manager: that 's i think it 's a good idea . marketing: yeah . that 's s that 's sort of the um but i i 'm my hope here is that i 'm putting out this information so that we can then say okay , well how do we collectively move on with it . project manager: mm-hmm . okay . marketing: um i i have n't brought out one specific marketing idea , although my sense is that what we should try and think about is what are the current trends in materials and shapes and styles , and then use that . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: but not let that confine us technologically . project manager: okay . right . marketing: so alright ? any um comments on all of that ? project manager: well , um one of the things that we have to decide on by the end of the meeting is who we 're gon na be um who 's our our target audience , our target market . marketing: that 's uh project manager: um , so if we want something that that looks good and is easy to use , but has y is fairly powerful product , whatever , who do we really want to aim that at ? marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: i mean marketing: where 's the money , maybe . project manager: yeah , who wou who would have the money to spend . well i if if like twenty five euro is our is our selling price then you can imagine , marketing: yeah . and who watches tv . mm-hmm . project manager: well i do n't i 'm not really sure how much that will retail at . marketing: mm . project manager: but you want it 's somebody who 's not gon na just use the remote that comes with their telly , i suppose , they 're gon na actually go out and buy one . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so , who do you think we 're aiming this at ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um , i think it 'll be the mid range to the high end market , in terms of people . 'cause twenty five euros for a remote , how much is that lo locally in pounds ? project manager: it 's about sixteen , seventeen pounds , i think . industrial designer: is that too is that a lot of money to buy an extra remote or a replacement remote ? project manager: yeah , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: right . project manager: okay . industrial designer: um so maybe not the high end range , but maybe middle , middle up-ish . kind of . project manager: okay . industrial designer: you know how much ? i dunno i guess you pay , what , ten ten quid for a remote ? project manager: okay . industrial designer: like a simple replacement , right . i mean if you lost your remote and the first thing you just wan na go out and get , project manager: yeah . yeah , marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: would you how much would you pay ? marketing: this this kinda touches on your comments there , david . these are the age groups which we have information on industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and these are this is a table of h what people would pay more for a certain feature . project manager: okay marketing: just gives us a rough idea of where the w the will to spend money on tv equipment is . project manager: okay . marketing: mostly focused around the twenty five age group . project manager: yeah , so do you think we 're we 're aiming at a fairly young market then ? industrial designer: yep . marketing: sort of young professional , kind of . mm-hmm project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: um project manager: um do you think then uh voice recognition is something we should really seriously consider ? what what do you think , craig ? user interface: well , did you not say it was the the adults that were going for the the voice recognition ? sort of the the older group . marketing: uh , yeah , it 's the yep . user interface: uh f marketing: it does it does fit with the market that we 're sort of identifying , project manager: n yeah . marketing: in terms of project manager: i think we are gon na have to narrow it down , to say let 's target these people and give them what they want marketing: okay . project manager: and 'cause you know , there needs to be some kind of selling point to it . marketing: yeah . sure . sure . project manager: so um anybody anything there to add marketing: yeah . project manager: just kind of young professionals , uh th like if we are going to include speech recognition , it 's kind of between fifteen and thirty five seems to be like a really high response to that . so we could say that was our target . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i i think twenty five to thirty five is is is fair to add that in as a group as well project manager: yeah . industrial designer: because that 's more than half your group of people who are willing to at least try and use your technology . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . yeah , yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . okay , so fifteen to thirty five , look fairly young . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: you know , they have bit of expendable income to spend on this sort of thing . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think perhaps that age group is significant as well because those are people who use the computer , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: who are familiar with their with computers in in their everyday work . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i think people who are maybe about i would n't say thirty five , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: but people who are about forty-ish and above now would not be so dependent and reliant on a computer or a mobile phone or something like that . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . but yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah , sure . industrial designer: so these are people who are gadgety , right ? project manager: so marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: people who are u growing up used to , you know in schools and in universities , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: when you go on to their working lives , people who would you know regular project manager: yeah . so they 'll not sh not shy away from something quite high-tech . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . mm . project manager: that that 's that 's a good point . marketing: yeah . project manager: um okay , so um industrial designer: project manager: so shall we make the decision uh to include speech recognition marketing: if we can . industrial designer: i i think one thing we should try not to avoid is not to say we have to use speech recognition right now , project manager: if we can . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: because um , based on what you 've go y everybody 's saying , right , you want something simple . project manager: okay . why is that ? industrial designer: you want basic stuff and you want something that 's easy to use . speech recognition might not be the simplest thing for somebody to use . marketing: right . project manager: okay . marketing: could it be an on off thing ? industrial designer: um , marketing: like if you want it on industrial designer: but what i 'm saying is that we 're we 're trying to lock ourselves into a s particular kind of technology , project manager: where you can activate it and deactivate it ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: rather than focusing on on exactly what are the features that we 're gon na say , and then , you know , say speech recognition is good for this , speech recognition is not good for this . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: yeah . sure . industrial designer: so maybe we should marketing: sure . project manager: okay . industrial designer: i suggest that we think about speech recognition , marketing: yeah . sure . industrial designer: anyway it 's a it 's something that can be used to fulfil a function , but at end of the day we do n't look at the technology , but we look at the function first . project manager: uh-huh . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: sure . yep . project manager: uh okay , well do you wan na um give us your presentation industrial designer: okay , sure . project manager: and then then we can i do n't know marketing: yep . project manager: um might have been a good idea to all deliver our presentations and then discuss , but this is this is how we 're marketing: yeah , it 's good well it 's good to get ideas out while they 're fresh in mind . project manager: yeah , exactly , yeah . marketing: um project manager: oh it 's something that 's just occurred to me as well is if we make it um speech reco if we incorporate speech recognition , that 's appealing to people um maybe with a physical disability as well . marketing: not project manager: um . marketing: yeah . and not losing . and also it helps in terms of people not losing this , project manager: yeah . marketing: you know they they 're saying oh it 's i lose it in the couch . project manager: yeah . marketing: like we 're kind of what we 're b sort of getting in into here is mating different uh design features together project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: that they user interface: i reckon one problem with speech recognition is um i 've actually seen one of them used and uh the technology that was in that one was n't particularly amazing , so you end up yelling at the control for hours . industrial designer: project manager: really ? user interface: channel up . marketing: right . user interface: marketing: oh really , you 've seen one before . project manager: do you think maybe we need like further advances in that kind of area until it 's worthwhile incorporating it though ? user interface: um i think it 'd probably quite expensive to put in . industrial designer: sorry , do you mind passing me my notepad . project manager: mm . course not . industrial designer: thanks . cool , project manager: there you go . industrial designer: um . okay . um . project manager: right . industrial designer: well this is just the working design um . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: well this is just what how i would go about it . um i guess i try to define like what we 're doing now , try to define what we 're trying to get done . um i think in a practical way , we kind of know what it is . marketing: right . industrial designer: we 've used it , we 're familiar with it , but we 're we ca n't n we have n't narrowed down um exactly what the things we 're trying to fulfil , like besides the basics , i think back in the back of our minds we know what the basics are . has to change channels , has to change volume , but in like specifics , right , which one of the basics are you trying to target . um are there certain parts of the basics that are more important or less important than the basics ? marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and i just the idea is just to get everybody to um i usually have a have have a design that 's there as a basic , so , you know , things that to start everything going . but i guess everybody does have some idea , so i do n't think um there 's a need for that . um okay this finding things is a little bit confusing , so i 'll go into the diagram first . it just explains how the process goes through , from a project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: from the basic technology point of view , the basic steps that you need um in the diagram and in this slide probably works better . um okay , you need some power source . 'kay , a battery or something , to keep it going . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and that power source is important because it ties you down to um how long the device will last . um it ties you down perhaps a bit later on in terms of the technologies project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: um how far you can transmit the signal or the complexity of the functions that you want . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like for example , voice recognition , right . that might be constrained because that you might need to power a microphone , you might need to power other things , so that 's one perhaps constraint there . um th okay , the basic thing is there 's a user interface where people punch a button or talk into it or smile to it or blink their eyes , whatever . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: you know , and that um picks up an input from a user , um uh a logic a series of logic has to decide what the user is telling the device , and the device has to r you know , based on you push button a_ , so i will do something with button a_ . so maybe button a_ is the power button , okay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and then it needs to be able to send the signal out to the device itself which is the receiver here . um and i think that 's about it in terms of my design um . it 's fairly general , um and i guess the purpose of this is also not to restrict you in in the way you 're thinking , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: like um voice recognition , right , um , if it 's something which is important then we just add more power rather than having a thing that we do n't have enough power . so it 's not really a constraint in that sense , project manager: okay . industrial designer: but i mean these are functionally , you know , the base , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: what the technology has to do . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . industrial designer: um so i guess the rest of it marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i think we should maybe you you wan na go back to what the functions are ? i think that 's more relevant to a discussion ? project manager: uh . marketing: 'kay . project manager: well , do you wan do you wan na finish up your your whole presentation then ? marketing: sure . sure . industrial designer: yeah , w i 'm done . project manager: are you are you all done ? industrial designer: more or less . yeah . ps oh , it 's just putting the rest of it into words , but it 's essentially the same thing . marketing: yep . project manager: mm . industrial designer: um you have a transmitter , an input device , logic chip , project manager: okay . industrial designer: you know , stuff like that . project manager: okay . marketing: right . industrial designer: um project manager: right . marketing: and like on the means b industrial designer: i guess this would be marketing: since we 're on the topic of the technology , uh are there any like what are our options ? industrial designer: yep . marketing: alright , what 's what i in is this the only way that we go about it , or are there other thin industrial designer: um , these these are n't technology options in that sense . this is just um marketing: right . industrial designer: a basic principles and basic components that are needed . marketing: the basic principle of project manager: okay . marketing: 'kay . industrial designer: for example , if you needed um if you needed to add uh a voice recognition , right , then your user interface would be split , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: right . industrial designer: broken down into more components , right , marketing: okay . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: which you have a microphone , the v_r_ and stuff like that . project manager: oh . so this just show how we 're kind of modularising the whole thing . marketing: okay . industrial designer: uh yep . yep . so each component represents one function , project manager: okay . industrial designer: but i think the basic functions are the logic , the transmitter , um and the receiver , okay , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and the power are things that you wo n't have to care about . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um and those are things that based on what your user interface requires then we 'll add more functionality to it . project manager: yeah . mm-hmm . industrial designer: um there might be one other consideration which would be that the the transmission between the remote control and the tv for example . project manager: okay . industrial designer: okay , um are we gon na restrict ourselves to using the traditional technologies of infra-red thing ? project manager: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . industrial designer: because that 's something you need to actually be physically be pointing to . right . project manager: okay . marketing: right . project manager: well well a worry that was was expressed in the new requirements was that if we made this too complex it would e it would effect um how long how long it took us to get this to market , so i th suspect it might be a good idea just to restrict our kind of our creative influence on this on the user interface and not worry so much about uh how we transmit it industrial designer: yep . project manager: um because i mean it it 's tried and tested intra-red , so we could stay with tha industrial designer: there might be one other problem with the transmission , um in particular right now , since we 're talking about voice recognition . um if somebody 's gon na h talk to the device , you ideally want them to hold it to them . project manager: mm-hmm industrial designer: i it project manager: oh , yeah . industrial designer: you may not require that , marketing: right . industrial designer: but you know , um it 's it 's marketing: right . industrial designer: it 's something very natural , i guess , you know , to hold it , to signal to the user , project manager: yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: and push a button maybe to start s talking about it . project manager: okay . industrial designer: then you need to send the signal out , so because if you 're using infra-red , the line of sight um say the tv 's at that chair , and i 'm standing in front of here and the transmitter is here , it blocks it . project manager: mm . mm . yeah . industrial designer: so in that sense , there 's not really a restriction project manager: okay . industrial designer: but it 's something which you may have to think about later on in the process . marketing: right . industrial designer: not so much further down . marketing: okay . project manager: okay . marketing: and um just a clarification before we finish this . uh does c is our controller is it have the option of being um on a standard uh frequency as all of the other equipment , so that the one controller can control several pieces of equipment ? industrial designer: there 's there 's not much specific specific information , project manager: w industrial designer: but i think that um one indication of infra-red mean that you 're just targeting traditional devices . because infra-red is something which everybody has . project manager: yeah . w well well we 've um marketing: okay . project manager: in the new requirement spec they said just to focus on the tv , industrial designer: marketing: just to tv , okay . project manager: so that 's what we should do for now i think . something i was wondering about was the power . marketing: okay . project manager: um , is it worth considering like having like a charging unit as opposed to just regular batteries ? i mean is that something we really want to go into , do you think , industrial designer: there 's a there 's project manager: or should we just consider running on regular batteries ? industrial designer: okay , from from a from a component point of view there 's added complexity , and you add cost to it , project manager: uh-huh . uh-huh . industrial designer: um and then there 's probably the fact that you need another physical component . you need a docking cradle , for example , for you to put it in to charge . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: or you need to get the user to plug it in . project manager: okay . marketing: project manager: okay , industrial designer: um and most users are very f use already used to the idea of buying batteries and putting it into the controller . project manager: so yeah . industrial designer: but unless the controller 's gon na consume a lot of batteries , like he 's gon na run through like twenty batteries a month , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: then i do n't think rechargeable is something we should you know , we really need to care about . project manager: okay , so just stick to to regular marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um . project manager: okay . um , right . so basically the um i 'm just gon na just recap uh what i said at the start , was that um the the whole point of this meeting was to f absolutely finalise who we 're gon na aim this at , industrial designer: project manager: and what exactly the product 's gon na do . marketing: okay . project manager: so um just to recap on marketing: okay . project manager: are we all happy about the idea of um aiming the product at um the fifteen to thirty five bracket ? um and also the funct the the actual functions of what it 's gon na do . marketing: yeah , that 's good . project manager: do you wan na recap on that , craig ? user interface: um . project manager: user interface: i think we just say that it was gon na be the the most basic stuff possible . um on off , up and down channels , up and down volume and uh skip to a channel . project manager: okay , right . user interface: ta . marketing: and is it going to include any of the uh the more advanced features , or are we gon na eliminate those ? user interface: um i think we include mute , but apart from that um i think we just we 'll go for the simpleness . industrial designer: okay , i think project manager: okay . marketing: okay . r is it is it is it s is it not an option still that we include some things just as a sort of under like sort of under a door or some project manager: yeah , it 's as optional functions . user interface: yeah . marketing: 'cause what what i 'm i 'd be a bit worried about is if someone was h had previously developed habits of expecting to control surround sound or this and that with their controller and then and then they , you know , w they get ours and w it 's does n't have that . project manager: okay . marketing: i dunno if that 'd be a problem . industrial designer: another thing that you were saying about categorising the controls ? um maybe i could suggest we we break them down into three simple categories . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: one would be audio controls , marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: one would be video controls , and the other one would be a device . marketing: okay . industrial designer: um this may not map very well to advanced functionality especially , but i think that um from a manufacturer 's point of view , from a person designing the device , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but i think from a point of view of a person using the device , you know a tv is something they see and something they hear , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um it 's something they do other things to like turn it on and turn it off . i mean like so what we could have is like three buckets , right , where we could throw things into , project manager: yeah . marketing: right . project manager: industrial designer: like if we want this feature , let 's throw it into there , and then from there decide whether it 's basic , or it 's non-basic . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i mean it might help with the visualisation . marketing: 'kay , okay . like that . okay . industrial designer: and it would actually help with the component build as well . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , right . marketing: mm okay , great . project manager: um , okay well i got ta kind of got five minutes to wrap up now . um next thing we 're doing is having lunch . whoohoo . um and then we 're gon na have thirty minutes of working on the next stage . um so i 'll be putting the minutes of this uh this meeting into the project documents folder . um so uh i guess just to just to confirm that we know what we 're doing in the next well in the thirty minutes after lunch anyway , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: project manager: um for uh our industrial designer , you 're gon na be thinking about the components concept . um user interface designer gon na be thinking about our user interface , and marketing you 're gon na be thinking about trend watching . um and you 'll all get specific instructions as well . so um i dunno , just just to to ask now if you 've got anything else you 've thought about while we 've been talking . marketing: project manager: um , do you wan na start with david . anything else to say at all ? industrial designer: mm no , not really . project manager: no , okay . andrew ? marketing: um yeah , just i just wanted to ask then before we wrap up , shall we agree for sake of um sort of clarity and when we when we r resume that we 'll u use this idea david 's proposed , where we think of these three sort of buckets and anything anything we discuss about them is sort of , okay , we 're talking about this . project manager: yeah , yeah i think that 's definitely a good idea . industrial designer: mm . project manager: uh-huh . marketing: shall we do that , then ? project manager: yeah . marketing: okay , great . user interface: um just about the three buckets , um what would go in the the device functions one ? industrial designer: um things like on off . because they do n't have anything to do with what you see . i me mean in terms of picture and the entertainment value , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: you know , um so um project manager: okay . user interface: um marketing: and and channel . industrial designer: and channel . because the on off also goes , you know , like on off like power , not on off sound . marketing: right . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: not on off video . although you do n't turn off the video on your tv , but um you might wan na you know turn off the sound , project manager: okay . industrial designer: say you wan na pick up the phone , there 's a mute button , right , so you you have you have a choice of putting it on to um others or a device . project manager: okay . industrial designer: device is basically anything which we ca n't categorise , right . we put it out . project manager: okay , so you 're gon na have um audio which is gon na be like you know your bass settings and actual volume hi marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , anything to do with what you hear , right . you you put that into audio . project manager: okay . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then video is anything that you can see . project manager: okay , and then visual marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay , so brightness , contrast , things like that , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um . yep . project manager: and then just actual device things , marketing: colour , yeah . industrial designer: yep . project manager: like what channel you 're watching , turning on an off , marketing: sure . sure . industrial designer: yep . project manager: stuff like that . marketing: okay . project manager: okay , um marketing: and then k i suppose quite likely what would happen is in the d device category there might be some which are just like the habitual standard and then others which are maybe a bit more industrial designer: like random which we have no other place to put , but we need it somewhere there . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . sure , okay . okay . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um even even if it does n't map very clearly what happens is that people at least have some in their mind . project manager: okay . industrial designer: it 's easy to use , i think that 's one thing that um and i guess from the component point of view it 's easy to build as well project manager: okay . industrial designer: 'cause things are like fixed . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: um so yeah , i guess just things to think about are you know like the fact it 's got ta look good , industrial designer: project manager: because of who we 're we 're , you know , targeting this at . um something maybe kind of quirky in design maybe . make it kind of ergonomic kind of to hold , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: you know , things like that . um , so i guess i guess that 's it . that 's the meeting over . marketing: great . project manager: whoohoo . marketing: then we get to go find out what was picked up for lunch for us . user interface: { vocalsound }

the voice recognition could deliver advantages to physical disability and people not losing the remote . however , it could make people yell at the control for hours when the function was in trouble . so the group considered whether there was a need to add further advanced incorporation .